[ExI] Religions are not the ultimate cause of war

[Tomasz Rola]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Mirco Romanato wrote:

> Il 30/09/2012 05:47, Tomasz Rola ha scritto:
> 
> > In other words, they are doing against their own ideals (like, their
> > religion) which is about being right and doing just things - or so
> > it says. The only religion I heard of that would ok acts of
> > terrorism is satanism (but I'm not sure if this is religion proper).
> > Anyway, killing random people is cowardish and unjust in my opinion.
> 
> Try to Google "I was made victorious with terror" (it will help you
> auto-completing the phrase ) and you will find some interesting things
> about Mormonism.

I googled. But instead of entering the pages, I examined whois records of 
theirs. I guessed I knew what to expect, but more than this I was 
wondering who owned domains - majority from first results page were 
US-based, one Indian and one Middle-Eastian (if I am rigth).

Maybe I will find more time one day and look inside.

For a moment, I will say this.

I am very cautious with making statements about people that I do not know 
personally, whose language I neither know nor have time to learn (so I 
have to learn about them from second hand sources, which may have their 
own agenda). For a very minimum, I would need to read their sacred book, 
since it seems to play important role in Mormon lifes. Unfortunately, I 
have to read a book about Haskell programming language, which I consider 
more important at the moment, and later I need to at least skim throu some 
books about Ada and Smalltalk. So I really relegate learning about 
Mormonism to my spare time, which I must further divide to reading news, 
some other books, mailing lists and writing emails :-).

For what I know, we have our own community of Mormons here in Poland, and 
so far I have no reason to doubt their good will, law abiding or 
patriotism.

Also, since they are humans, I expect majority of them to be like other 
humans I know, trying to raise their families, have children and live long 
enough to see them having their own families and children. This requires 
that they support idea of peace lasting at least umpteen years (to raise 
children) at a very minimum. I expect them to be the majority of Mormons, 
simply because those who disregard needs of their families in favour of 
battling the world are worsening prospects of their children and in this 
way eradicate themselves. Or rather, their genes.

> 
> For people with no time to Google I just c&p the relevant text:
> 
[...]

I think one can find the same content in the Bible. What makes one worse 
than another?

BTW, I can see how the holy scriptures are constantly reinterpreted 
whenever there is a need. Nobody expects anybody to cut ones hand or part 
with the eye just because it happened to see naked body in newspaper. I 
will not go into description of killing, jealousy, incest and rape, which 
can be found in one holy scripture that I happened to read (and still read 
from time to time). But even in this case it is good to have it from the 
source. Consider, if you please, the story of Lot from Sodom, as written 
by R. Heinlein in "Stranger in a Strange Land" and a Bible itself. First, 
excerpt from Heinlein.

---- cut here ----

(...)He fed and sheltered two strangers overnight but his conduct shows 
that he knew them to be V.I.P.s whether or not he knew they were 
angels-and by the Koran and by my own lights, his hospitality would have 
counted for more if he had thought they were just a couple of unworthy 
poor in need of a pad and a handout. Aside from these insignificant items 
and Saint Peter's character reference, there is just one thing that Lot 
did mentioned anywhere in the Bible on which we can judge his 
virtue-virtue so great, mind you, that heavenly intercession saved his 
life. See chapter nineteen of Genesis, verse eight."

 "And what does it say?"

 "Look it up when we get home. I don't expect you to believe me." 

 "Jubal! You're the most infuriating man I've ever met."

 "And you're a very pretty girl and a fair cook, so I don't mind your 
ignorance. All right, I'll tell you-then you look it up anyhow. Some of 
Lot's neighbors came and beat on his door and wanted to meet these two 
blokes from out of town. Lot didn't fight with them; he offered 'em a deal 
instead. He had two young daughters, virgins-at least, such was his 
opinion-and he told this crowd of men that he would give them these two 
little girls and they could use them any way they liked-a gang shagging, a 
midnight revue, he pleaded with them to do any damn thing they pleased to 
his daughters . . - only please go 'way and quit beating on his door."

 "Jubal ... does it really say that?"

(...)

 "Possibly I couldn't find out from any of you. Even Lot might have been 
mistaken. But that's what he promised 'em-his virgin daughters, young and 
tender and scared-urged this street gang to rape them as much as they 
wished in any way they liked - . . if only they would leave him in peace?" 
Jubal snorted in disgust. "And the Bible cites this sort of scum as being 
a righteous man."

Jill said slowly, "I don't think that's quite the way we were taught it in 
Sunday School."

---- ok, cut here ----

I wasn't attending Sunday School, so I have no comparison, but after 
reading Heinlein's version I thought to myself, well, this Lot was some 
huge son of a bitch, that is for sure.

Now, this is how the Book of Genesis describes it:

---- cut here ----

Genesis 19 

King James Version (KJV)

19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of 
Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with 
his face toward the ground;

2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your 
servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall 
rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide 
in the street all night.

3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and 
entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened 
bread, and they did eat.

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, 
compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every 
quarter:

5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which 
came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,

7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I 
pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your 
eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the 
shadow of my roof.

9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in 
to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with 
thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and 
came near to break the door.

10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to 
them, and shut to the door.

11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with 
blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find 
the door.

---- cut again ----

So, what I can see above, Lot was trying to shelter the strangers from the 
mob. Not quite how Heinlein have put this.

See the difference?

Which is why I prefer the source rather than second hand relation.

> People often ask, what would Jesus, Bhudda, Moses would do?

Yes, exactly. But ask as much as one can, they will not tell. And only 
their own answer would be of any value. Not the answer given by their 
interpreters.

Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **