From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 10:37:54 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:37:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. Message-ID: The Astounding Truth About the Hubble Space Telescope's Most Famous Image Quote: The Hubble Space Telescope is humanity's portal to the universe. For more than twenty-five years its gaze has darted across the sky, returning images beyond our wildest dreams, sights of unimaginable beauty, radiant majesty, and awesome stellar violence. One of Hubble's most iconic images is famous for transcending stars, planets, and nebulae, for peering beyond our galaxy to view space on a truly cosmic scale. That image -- seen above -- is the Hubble Ultra-Deep Field. The specks of color and light you see are not stars; they are galaxies -- 10,000 of them in fact! It is the deepest image of the sky over obtained, gazing back approximately 13 billion years. Yet the immense scope of the Hubble Ultra-Deep Field conceals an astounding truth. As all-encompassing and far-reaching as the image seems, it is much, much closer to nothing than it is to everything. "The image is only one-forty millionth of the sky. In other words, it would take 40 million Hubble Ultra-Deep Fields to cover the entire sky," Dr. Edward J. Weiler, former Chief Scientist for the Hubble Space Telescope, recently revealed in a presentation at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. "If you wanted a human analogy, go out on a clear night, get a standard sewing needle, hold it up at arms? length and look at the hole in the sewing needle. That?s the size of the sky you?re seeing portrayed here." Weiler continued: "If this makes you feel small, it should. We humans, after all, have only been around for about 100,000 years on a planet that?s been here for four billion years or so. We live on a small rock called the Earth, which orbits a routine star called the Sun. And the sun is one of hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy. And, sorry, our galaxy isn?t really that special. It?s just one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. But before you get too depressed, on the positive side, we mere humans, just in the past 30 years, have built space observatories which enabled our minds and our spirits to travel any place in this vast universe and experience some of the most violent phenomena imaginable, places our physical bodies can never go." ------------- I wonder how many other species have gazed at this view in awe........ BillK From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 1 11:11:44 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:11:44 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> It is one of the best pictures ever. On 2015-12-01 10:37, BillK wrote: > I wonder how many other species have gazed at this view in awe........ > Well, it is only one part of 40 million, so roughly speaking if each civ looks at one such part we should expect one civ in 40 million to have looked at it. This of course ignores that space is 3D, that some civs look at more or less etc. If there are N other civilizations that have this spot in the visible universe, the chance that all of them miss a spot that there is probability p of seeing is (1-p)^N. For p=2.5e-8, if there are a million civilizations, the chance is 97%. A billion civilizations, essentially zero. A civilization looking at k spots is equivalent to k civilizations looking at one spot in the above calculation, so a million civs taking 1000 pictures is equivalent to a billion civs. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From protokol2020 at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 11:30:03 2015 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:30:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. In-Reply-To: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> References: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> Message-ID: No problem. The exponential growth will soon enable us to look everywhere all the time, with even a sharper vision than this. On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > It is one of the best pictures ever. > > On 2015-12-01 10:37, BillK wrote: > >> I wonder how many other species have gazed at this view in awe........ >> >> Well, it is only one part of 40 million, so roughly speaking if each civ > looks at one such part we should expect one civ in 40 million to have > looked at it. This of course ignores that space is 3D, that some civs look > at more or less etc. > > If there are N other civilizations that have this spot in the visible > universe, the chance that all of them miss a spot that there is probability > p of seeing is (1-p)^N. For p=2.5e-8, if there are a million civilizations, > the chance is 97%. A billion civilizations, essentially zero. > > A civilization looking at k spots is equivalent to k civilizations looking > at one spot in the above calculation, so a million civs taking 1000 > pictures is equivalent to a billion civs. > > > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 1 15:45:37 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 07:45:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. In-Reply-To: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> References: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> Message-ID: <004601d12c4f$53f097d0$fbd1c770$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: Re: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. It is one of the best pictures ever. Anders Sandberg On 2015-12-01 10:37, BillK wrote: > I wonder how many other species have gazed at this view in awe........ I use Hubble deep sky images for the background of my computer monitor. I have been using those for years but every time I gaze at them, they still fill me with awe. spike From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 1 17:08:29 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:08:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Our place in the really really BIG Universe. In-Reply-To: References: <565D8070.8030206@aleph.se> Message-ID: <565DD40D.8070003@aleph.se> On 2015-12-01 11:30, Tomaz Kristan wrote: > No problem. The exponential growth will soon enable us to look > everywhere all the time, with even a sharper vision than this. If that is generically true, then we should expect every spot of the sky to have been watched and wondered at by *something*. That is also awe-inspiring. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 15:29:14 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:29:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= Message-ID: Man?s Greatest Achievement ? Nikola Tesla on Akashic engineering and the future of humanity The maverick genius Nikola Tesla was a Cosmist, a pre-transhumanist thinker, and an early proponent of a synthesis of Eastern mysticism and Western can-do engineering spirit. Tesla boldly dared to imagine ?Akashic engineering? and Man?s ?most complete triumph over the physical world, his crowning achievement which would place him beside his Creator and fulfill his ultimate destiny.?... http://turingchurch.com/2015/12/02/mans-greatest-achievement-nikola-tesla-on-akashic-engineering-and-the-future-of-humanity/ From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 2 17:03:37 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:03:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> (Short version: I dig the panegyrics, but I don't think he is actually saying anything spiritual... despite trying.) Is the word "Akashic" really doing any work here, besides denoting something all-encompassing? While I like Tesla's cosmist sentiments, I think there is a risk that one goes down a path of mythologizing things that are best understood in a non-mythological framework. As an example, if I started to use the word "karma" to denote market outcomes, I could say things like "Labor karma is shorthand for worker (never employer) variables that are often considered endogeneous in a labor market regression." or "Market failure is a situation in which the karma is blocked." By using the same word as used in religion, I add an air of destiny and rightness to the market outcomes - clearly any ideology that tries to subvert them must be spiritually bad! But it is just a word. Many have of course criticized the concept of the "invisible hand" on these grounds, arguing it adds a religious bent to what should be a discussion of emergent orders. When Tesla says: > Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a > primary substance, of a tenuity beyond conception and filling all > space ? the Akasha or luminiferous ether ? which is acted upon by the > life-giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence, in never > ending cycles, all things and phenomena. he is talking about something - the luminiferous ether - that we now know does not exist. We can of course transplant/save his statement to relate to the electromagnetic field, or more properly the universal wavefunction. But is that really the same statement any more? We may say the ancients had no clue about the ether either, so it is all metaphors for whatever the fundamental stuff of reality actually is. But then Prana/creative force just means "that which acts on the fundamental force", and we have no real clue to what it is, what properties it has, or whether it is anywhere close to the kind of creative cosmist engineering Tesla envisions. In fact, we do not have any evidence that we can manipulate the universal wavefunction in any way whatsoever. Nor do we have any reason to think that the Akhasha and Prana in this sense has anything to do with our own spiritual aims, just like few today think that electricity is inherently spiritual. To me, it seems that Tesla is saying "we are learning to control these fundamental forces, and in the future we will do awesome things with them!" - which I totally agree with. But he is not saying much about the spiritual meaning by using his words. The most relevant spiritual thing is the brief mention of destiny near the end, which is the tie-in to proper teleology. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 2 19:39:46 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 19:39:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> Message-ID: <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> Just came across this paper, which is mildly hopeful in the sense that there is a backup for many (but not all) plants: Non-bee insects are important contributors to global crop pollination http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.abstract > Wild and managed bees are well documented as effective pollinators of > global crops of economic importance. However, the contributions by > pollinators other than bees have been little explored despite their > potential to contribute to crop production and stability in the face > of environmental change. Non-bee pollinators include flies, beetles, > moths, butterflies, wasps, ants, birds, and bats, among others. Here > we focus on non-bee insects and synthesize 39 field studies from five > continents that directly measured the crop pollination services > provided by non-bees, honey bees, and other bees to compare the > relative contributions of these taxa. Non-bees performed 25?50% of the > total number of flower visits. Although non-bees were less effective > pollinators than bees per flower visit, they made more visits; thus > these two factors compensated for each other, resulting in pollination > services rendered by non-bees that were similar to those provided by > bees. In the subset of studies that measured fruit set, fruit set > increased with non-bee insect visits independently of bee visitation > rates, indicating that non-bee insects provide a unique benefit that > is not provided by bees. We also show that non-bee insects are not as > reliant as bees on the presence of remnant natural or seminatural > habitat in the surrounding landscape. These results strongly suggest > that non-bee insect pollinators play a significant role in global crop > production and respond differently than bees to landscape structure, > probably making their crop pollination services more robust to changes > in land use. Non-bee insects provide a valuable service and provide > potential insurance against bee population declines. > > Significance > > Many of the world?s crops are pollinated by insects, and bees are > often assumed to be the most important pollinators. To our knowledge, > our study is the first quantitative evaluation of the relative > contribution of non-bee pollinators to global pollinator-dependent > crops. Across 39 studies we show that insects other than bees are > efficient pollinators providing 39% of visits to crop flowers. A shift > in perspective from a bee-only focus is needed for assessments of crop > pollinator biodiversity and the economic value of pollination. These > studies should also consider the services provided by other types of > insects, such as flies, wasps, beetles, and butterflies?important > pollinators that are currently overlooked. > -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 20:08:15 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 20:08:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 2 December 2015 at 19:39, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Just came across this paper, which is mildly hopeful in the sense that there > is a backup for many (but not all) plants: > > Non-bee insects are important contributors to global crop pollination > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.full.pdf > http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.abstract > > Wild and managed bees are well documented as effective pollinators of global > crops of economic importance. However, the contributions by pollinators > other than bees have been little explored despite their potential to > contribute to crop production and stability in the face of environmental > change. Non-bee pollinators include flies, beetles, moths, butterflies, > wasps, ants, birds, and bats, among others. Non-bee pollinators have been little studied. Similarly whether they are suffering declines like bees has not been studied. If insecticides and loss of habitat are affecting bees, then it is likely that other insects are also affected. Quote: Brandon Keim Science 05.06.14. Beyond Honeybees: Now Wild Bees and Butterflies May Be in Trouble Slowly but surely, though, results from field studies and anecdotal reports from experts are piling up. They don?t paint a pretty picture. Many pollinator populations seem to be dwindling. Among other pollinators, iconic monarch butterfly declines are well documented: Their numbers are now at a small fraction of historical levels. And entomologist Art Shapiro of the University of California, Davis spent most of the last four decades counting butterflies across central California, and found declines in every region. ----------- BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 3 05:49:50 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:49:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> Message-ID: <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: Re: [ExI] bees Just came across this paper, which is mildly hopeful in the sense that there is a backup for many (but not all) plants: Non-bee insects are important contributors to global crop pollination http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2015/11/24/1517092112.abstract Wild and managed bees are well documented as effective pollinators of global crops . -- Anders Sandberg Thanks Anders. I have been watching closely these last several years. My best description of my findings: the local bees seem to act as if they just don't feel good. It isn't a full-on sick, more like the kind you get where you go ahead and go into the office and put in a full day. But it isn't your best day, or even in the top 90%. The bees act like a feeling-crummy day at the office. Now of course I start thinking of ways to measure how bees are feeling. Perhaps they fly a little differently when well-fed and fully healthy. We could raise some in isolation and feed them all the best pollen, try to create a control group. Then make some kind of optical measurement device, a camera which measures flight speed, oscillation rates, hover times, and anything else we can figure out how to reduce to a matrix of data using optical data. Then we compare to domestic bees and wild bees. I don't know how else to determine if bees feel healthy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 07:30:57 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 08:30:57 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> Message-ID: Of course Tesla was using the language and scientific knowledge of his times. The article was published in 1930 but written in 1907, shortly after Einstein's paper that introduced special relativity and explained the luminiferous ether away. Your translation of Tesla's words translated in time-independent scientific language - we are learning to control the fundamental nature and forces of space-time, and in the future we will do awesome things with them - seems close to what Tesla had in mind, but I disagree on "he is not saying much about the spiritual meaning." Man's "triumph over the physical world, his crowning achievement which would place him beside his Creator and fulfill his ultimate destiny" is spiritual meaning: our descendants will use science and technology to do anything they will dream of, including God-like achievements. Tesla's words here and elsewhere are "scientific poetry" meant to inspire and energize. On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > (Short version: I dig the panegyrics, but I don't think he is actually > saying anything spiritual... despite trying.) > > Is the word "Akashic" really doing any work here, besides denoting something > all-encompassing? While I like Tesla's cosmist sentiments, I think there is > a risk that one goes down a path of mythologizing things that are best > understood in a non-mythological framework. > > As an example, if I started to use the word "karma" to denote market > outcomes, I could say things like "Labor karma is shorthand for worker > (never employer) variables that are often considered endogeneous in a labor > market regression." or "Market failure is a situation in which the karma is > blocked." By using the same word as used in religion, I add an air of > destiny and rightness to the market outcomes - clearly any ideology that > tries to subvert them must be spiritually bad! But it is just a word. Many > have of course criticized the concept of the "invisible hand" on these > grounds, arguing it adds a religious bent to what should be a discussion of > emergent orders. > > When Tesla says: >> >> Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary >> substance, of a tenuity beyond conception and filling all space ? the Akasha >> or luminiferous ether ? which is acted upon by the life-giving Prana or >> creative force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles, all things >> and phenomena. > > he is talking about something - the luminiferous ether - that we now know > does not exist. We can of course transplant/save his statement to relate to > the electromagnetic field, or more properly the universal wavefunction. But > is that really the same statement any more? We may say the ancients had no > clue about the ether either, so it is all metaphors for whatever the > fundamental stuff of reality actually is. But then Prana/creative force just > means "that which acts on the fundamental force", and we have no real clue > to what it is, what properties it has, or whether it is anywhere close to > the kind of creative cosmist engineering Tesla envisions. In fact, we do not > have any evidence that we can manipulate the universal wavefunction in any > way whatsoever. Nor do we have any reason to think that the Akhasha and > Prana in this sense has anything to do with our own spiritual aims, just > like few today think that electricity is inherently spiritual. > > To me, it seems that Tesla is saying "we are learning to control these > fundamental forces, and in the future we will do awesome things with them!" > - which I totally agree with. But he is not saying much about the spiritual > meaning by using his words. The most relevant spiritual thing is the brief > mention of destiny near the end, which is the tie-in to proper teleology. > > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 08:59:43 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 08:59:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> Message-ID: <5660047F.9090506@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 05:49, spike wrote: > Now of course I start thinking of ways to measure how bees are > feeling. Perhaps they fly a little differently when well-fed and > fully healthy. We could raise some in isolation and feed them all the > best pollen, try to create a control group. Then make some kind of > optical measurement device, a camera which measures flight speed, > oscillation rates, hover times, and anything else we can figure out > how to reduce to a matrix of data using optical data. Then we compare > to domestic bees and wild bees. Clearly there must be some behavioural signs you are picking up, if you are not imagining it. I can imagine taking a bundle of data of perky and tired bees and using machine learning to categorize them - but that requires having samples of the kinds. One could also do clustering of their behaviour and see if there are clusters that look suspicious - but again, if all the bees in the back yard are tired this will not show much. I don't have a good feeling for the Bay Area ecosystem, but it always struck me as having unusually few insects around. I was so happy seeing that moth larva with you and the kid last time I was over. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 09:24:04 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 09:24:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> Message-ID: <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 07:30, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Man's "triumph over the physical world, his crowning achievement which > would place him beside his Creator and fulfill his ultimate destiny" > is spiritual meaning: our descendants will use science and technology > to do anything they will dream of, including God-like achievements. > > Tesla's words here and elsewhere are "scientific poetry" meant to > inspire and energize. True. As someone who hangs out with philosophers too much, I however wonder why triumphing over the physical world (1) places humanity beside the creator, and (2) is ultimate destiny. I think it really comes down to the issue of meaning of life. Now, the comist approach to that is generally a Baconian "effecting all things possible", but *why* this is meaningful is tricky. Fedorov and others saw it as doing God's work, fulfilling a plan set by the Creator. I have a hard time seeing how a plan made by an ever so great being actually produces meaning. One can also use an Aristotelian virtue view, where taking charge and transforming the universe well would mean the fulfilment of (post)human excellence. That I can buy a bit more easily. From my own more consequentialist view, transforming the universe is just good for its inhabitants - they will be more, happier and have more value. But that is just maximzing value, not anything to do with (1) or (2). -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 09:46:33 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:46:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anders, you philosophers are really hair-splitters. To uneducated morons like me, good is meaningful. Becoming co-creators places us besides the Creator by definition, and it's ultimate destiny because it's a good ultimate outcome. On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2015-12-03 07:30, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> Man's "triumph over the physical world, his crowning achievement which >> would place him beside his Creator and fulfill his ultimate destiny" >> is spiritual meaning: our descendants will use science and technology >> to do anything they will dream of, including God-like achievements. >> >> Tesla's words here and elsewhere are "scientific poetry" meant to >> inspire and energize. > > True. As someone who hangs out with philosophers too much, I however wonder > why triumphing over the physical world (1) places humanity beside the > creator, and (2) is ultimate destiny. > > I think it really comes down to the issue of meaning of life. Now, the > comist approach to that is generally a Baconian "effecting all things > possible", but *why* this is meaningful is tricky. Fedorov and others saw it > as doing God's work, fulfilling a plan set by the Creator. I have a hard > time seeing how a plan made by an ever so great being actually produces > meaning. One can also use an Aristotelian virtue view, where taking charge > and transforming the universe well would mean the fulfilment of (post)human > excellence. That I can buy a bit more easily. > > From my own more consequentialist view, transforming the universe is just > good for its inhabitants - they will be more, happier and have more value. > But that is just maximzing value, not anything to do with (1) or (2). > > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 11:16:54 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:16:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> Message-ID: <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 09:46, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Anders, you philosophers are really hair-splitters. I take that as a compliment. But I understand what you are saying: why care? Because we are talking about ultimate, important things. If we are not as careful with them as we are with mere medicines, explosives or stock markets, should we not expect mistakes to lead to devastating losses of value? > To uneducated morons like me, good is meaningful. Becoming co-creators places us > besides the Creator by definition, and it's ultimate destiny because > it's a good ultimate outcome. A lot of ethical systems agree that doing good is meaningful (for various reasons). But what the good is, and how to justify it, is more divergent. Is my nephew playing Minecraft a co-creator to "Notch" Persson? In a sense, yes. Notch made the game for people to play and create in, yet he has an ontological and moral status regarding the game that is more deep than my nephew's, despite my nephew's creations and joy actually giving the game meaning. (The theodice problem in Minecraft is so easy: why did Notch create creepers? To make things exciting! But this kind of answer does not carry over to our world, since here we have value-carrying beings that actually have their value harmed by the real-world counterparts of creepers) Can you fail at destiny? The traditional idea is that destiny must happen. But that does not imply a good ultimate outcome. If destiny is something we are aiming at, then at most it is something to hope for, not something we can put our faith in. Yes, philosophers are annoying :-) -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 11:51:57 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:51:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 3 December 2015 at 11:16, Anders Sandberg wrote: > I take that as a compliment. But I understand what you are saying: why care? > Because we are talking about ultimate, important things. If we are not as > careful with them as we are with mere medicines, explosives or stock > markets, should we not expect mistakes to lead to devastating losses of > value? > Errrrrr??? But medicines explosives and stock markets are human disaster areas! Humans may pretend (or make feeble attempts) to be careful with such as these but fail miserably. It is the human good PR intentions versus actual terrible collateral damage. > Can you fail at destiny? The traditional idea is that destiny must happen. > But that does not imply a good ultimate outcome. If destiny is something we > are aiming at, then at most it is something to hope for, not something we > can put our faith in. > Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. Predestination leads to rather convoluted reasoning. :) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:46:08 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:46:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration Message-ID: How a 5-Ounce Bird Stores 10,000 Maps in its Head Robert Krulwich 12/3/2015 Quote: It weighs only four or five ounces, its brain practically nothing, and yet, oh my God, what this little bird can do. It?s astonishing. Around now, as we begin December, the Clark?s nutcracker has, conservatively, 5,000 (and up to 20,000) treasure maps in its head. They?re accurate, detailed, and instantly retrievable. It?s been burying seeds since August. It?s hidden so many (one study says almost 100,000 seeds) in the forest, meadows, and tree nooks that it can now fly up, look down, and see little x?s marking those spots?here, here, not there, but here?and do this for maybe a couple of miles around. It will remember these x?s for the next nine months. In the 1970s, Stephen Vander Wall ran a tricky little experiment. He shifted the markers at certain sites, so that instead of pointing to where the seeds actually were, they now pointed to where the seeds were not. And the birds, as you?d expect if they were triangulating, went to the wrong place. But at sites where he left the markers untouched, the birds got it right. That?s a clue that each of these birds has thousands of marker-specific snapshots in their heads that they use for months and months. When the spring comes and the birds have their babies, they continue to visit old sites to gather seeds until their chicks fledge. The mystery here, the deep mystery, is how do they manage to store so much data in their heads? --------------- BillK
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From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:07:44 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 16:07:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anders: " But what the good is, and how to justify it, is more divergent." That's not a bug, but a feature! What is good for me, is good for me, and what is good for you, is good for you. No need to justify. Of course this doesn't mean that we can't discuss what is good and perhaps come to a common definition, but it does mean that you are (or should be) the ultimate arbiter of what you want to consider as good, and meaningful. Value and meaning are subjective experiences, and I am happy with that, makes teh world more interesting. On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:51 PM, BillK wrote: > On 3 December 2015 at 11:16, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> I take that as a compliment. But I understand what you are saying: why care? >> Because we are talking about ultimate, important things. If we are not as >> careful with them as we are with mere medicines, explosives or stock >> markets, should we not expect mistakes to lead to devastating losses of >> value? >> > > Errrrrr??? But medicines explosives and stock markets are human disaster areas! > Humans may pretend (or make feeble attempts) to be careful with such > as these but fail miserably. > It is the human good PR intentions versus actual terrible collateral damage. > > > >> Can you fail at destiny? The traditional idea is that destiny must happen. >> But that does not imply a good ultimate outcome. If destiny is something we >> are aiming at, then at most it is something to hope for, not something we >> can put our faith in. >> > > Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as > that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, > will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to > achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. > > Predestination leads to rather convoluted reasoning. :) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 3 15:46:32 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:46:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: <5660047F.9090506@aleph.se> References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> <5660047F.9090506@aleph.se> Message-ID: <004a01d12de1$c998f070$5ccad150$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 1:00 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] bees On 2015-12-03 05:49, spike wrote: Now of course I start thinking of ways to measure how bees are feeling. Perhaps they fly a little differently when well-fed and fully healthy. We could raise some in isolation and feed them all the best pollen, try to create a control group. Then make some kind of optical measurement device, a camera which measures flight speed, oscillation rates, hover times, and anything else we can figure out how to reduce to a matrix of data using optical data. Then we compare to domestic bees and wild bees. >.Clearly there must be some behavioural signs you are picking up, if you are not imagining it. I can imagine taking a bundle of data of perky and tired bees and using machine learning to categorize them - but that requires having samples of the kinds. One could also do clustering of their behaviour and see if there are clusters that look suspicious - but again, if all the bees in the back yard are tired this will not show much. I don't have a good feeling for the Bay Area ecosystem, but it always struck me as having unusually few insects around. I was so happy seeing that moth larva with you and the kid last time I was over. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Ja, the insect population and diversity here is not nearly as good for amateur entomology as where I misspent my childhood and youth in Florida. Wildlife of a wide variety of genus and species were abundant in that friendly environment. The buggery there was unsurpassed. s -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 16:25:11 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:25:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. Predestination leads to rather convoluted reasoning. :) anders I think the main use of fate in everyday life is to try to accept bad outcomes, such as cancer, accidents, and death. It's a way of saying "There was nothing I could do about it." I suspect that saying this does not really mean that the person totally believes in predestination/karma. Put another way, it's an ego defense mechanism. bill w On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 5:51 AM, BillK wrote: > On 3 December 2015 at 11:16, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > I take that as a compliment. But I understand what you are saying: why > care? > > Because we are talking about ultimate, important things. If we are not as > > careful with them as we are with mere medicines, explosives or stock > > markets, should we not expect mistakes to lead to devastating losses of > > value? > > > > Errrrrr??? But medicines explosives and stock markets are human disaster > areas! > Humans may pretend (or make feeble attempts) to be careful with such > as these but fail miserably. > It is the human good PR intentions versus actual terrible collateral > damage. > > > > > Can you fail at destiny? The traditional idea is that destiny must > happen. > > But that does not imply a good ultimate outcome. If destiny is something > we > > are aiming at, then at most it is something to hope for, not something we > > can put our faith in. > > > > Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as > that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, > will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to > achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. > > Predestination leads to rather convoluted reasoning. :) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 16:28:49 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:28:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: <004a01d12de1$c998f070$5ccad150$@att.net> References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> <5660047F.9090506@aleph.se> <004a01d12de1$c998f070$5ccad150$@att.net> Message-ID: Ja, the insect population and diversity here is not nearly as good for amateur entomology as where I misspent my childhood and youth in Florida. Wildlife of a wide variety of genus and species were abundant in that friendly environment. The buggery there was unsurpassed. Ah sir, I must disagree. Nothing in Florida or even the Amazon can hold a candle to southern Louisiana. Driving at night can mean using the windshield wipers to be able to see. bill w On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 9:46 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Anders Sandberg > *Sent:* Thursday, December 03, 2015 1:00 AM > *To:* extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] bees > > > > On 2015-12-03 05:49, spike wrote: > > Now of course I start thinking of ways to measure how bees are feeling. > Perhaps they fly a little differently when well-fed and fully healthy. We > could raise some in isolation and feed them all the best pollen, try to > create a control group. Then make some kind of optical measurement device, > a camera which measures flight speed, oscillation rates, hover times, and > anything else we can figure out how to reduce to a matrix of data using > optical data. Then we compare to domestic bees and wild bees. > > > >?Clearly there must be some behavioural signs you are picking up, if you > are not imagining it. I can imagine taking a bundle of data of perky and > tired bees and using machine learning to categorize them - but that > requires having samples of the kinds. One could also do clustering of their > behaviour and see if there are clusters that look suspicious - but again, > if all the bees in the back yard are tired this will not show much. > > I don't have a good feeling for the Bay Area ecosystem, but it always > struck me as having unusually few insects around. I was so happy seeing > that moth larva with you and the kid last time I was over. > > > -- > > Dr Anders Sandberg > > > > > > Ja, the insect population and diversity here is not nearly as good for amateur entomology as where I misspent my childhood and youth in Florida. Wildlife of a wide variety of genus and species were abundant in that friendly environment. The buggery there was unsurpassed. > > > > s > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 3 17:16:56 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 09:16:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] bees In-Reply-To: References: <005d01d1274a$4e033030$ea099090$@att.net> <565F4902.3040407@aleph.se> <00ec01d12d8e$6d5c8180$48158480$@att.net> <5660047F.9090506@aleph.se> <004a01d12de1$c998f070$5ccad150$@att.net> Message-ID: <003901d12dee$6a21ee50$3e65caf0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 8:29 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] bees >>?Ja, the insect population and diversity here is not nearly as good for amateur entomology as where I misspent my childhood and youth in Florida. Wildlife of a wide variety of genus and species were abundant in that friendly environment. The buggery there was unsurpassed. >?Ah sir, I must disagree. Nothing in Florida or even the Amazon can hold a candle to southern Louisiana. Driving at night can mean using the windshield wipers to be able to see? bill w HA! Windshield wipers? Luxury! You young fellers had it easy! When I was a boy, we tried that but the windshield wipers would just smear the bug guts. We eventually had to remove the windshields if we wanted to see. We had to carry a box of safety goggles and swap them out every few minutes. On long trips you didn?t even need to bother stopping for food every few hours. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 19:48:00 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:48:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Fate/was_Re=3A__Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievemen?= =?utf-8?q?t_=E2=80=93_Nikola_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_?= =?utf-8?q?of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: <847A8C8E-FE61-4A88-ADEC-A75A46CDE2E9@gmail.com> On Dec 3, 2558 BE, at 8:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as > that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, > will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to > achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. > > Predestination leads to rather convoluted reasoning. :) anders > > I think the main use of fate in everyday life is to try to accept bad outcomes, such as cancer, accidents, and death. It's a way of saying "There was nothing I could do about it." I suspect that saying this does not really mean that the person totally believes in predestination/karma. Put another way, it's an ego defense mechanism. In my opinion, most people who throw around these terms aren't really thinking all that deeply. It's sort of like people who say "God bless you" when you sneeze. I don't believe every last person saying that is thinking that there is a god and that god will do anything based on this speech act. I've liked the Samuel Butler line on this since I first read it in one of Wayne Booth's books: "... as luck would have it, Providence was on my side." Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 19:58:49 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 19:58:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: <56609EF9.1010809@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 11:51, BillK wrote: > On 3 December 2015 at 11:16, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> why care? >> Because we are talking about ultimate, important things. If we are not as >> careful with them as we are with mere medicines, explosives or stock >> markets, should we not expect mistakes to lead to devastating losses of >> value? >> > Errrrrr??? But medicines explosives and stock markets are human disaster areas! > Humans may pretend (or make feeble attempts) to be careful with such > as these but fail miserably. > It is the human good PR intentions versus actual terrible collateral damage. So, would you prefer a regime where nobody tried to be careful about them? Where the doctor gave you the nearest pill bottle and the demolitions expert stored his stuff in the front garden? Clearly not: imperfect attempts at handling important and dangerous things well make things better on average compared to not doing anything. At some point it might be too expensive or self-defeating to try to improve safety, but that is usually pretty far away from not doing anything. Similarly, would you be happy with a political system that did not care about the relative importance of issues, but just went through issues in alphabetical order? "The war? We expect to get to the 'W' section just before the Christmas break next year." Again, clearly not. Important things, even if they are hard to fix, should be prioritized over less important things. We would also want the best thinkers and doers to work on the important stuff, rather than the less important stuff. This is why thinking about things like the meaning of life matters and should not be done in a slipshod way. If we get it badly wrong we may go down the wrong path, losing tremendous amount of value. > Yes, Destiny and Fate are usually thought of as predetermined. But as > that may lead lazy humans to stop working and say 'Well, what will be, > will be' philosophers tend to reason that humans still have to work to > achieve their destiny. i.e. work ethic. You mean like the work ethics of the Calvinists? Who think they are predestined to work hard. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 20:21:55 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 20:21:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: <5660A463.3050009@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 15:07, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Anders: " But what the good is, and how to justify it, is more divergent." > > That's not a bug, but a feature! What is good for me, is good for me, > and what is good for you, is good for you. No need to justify. But if what is good for me is bad for you, we do have a need for justification. If I think pure happiness is good and try to convert all baryonic matter into little identical looping uploads in bliss, then you as a diversity-lover may have a problem. If you try to maximize the diversity of being, the negative utilitarian will be upset about how you are creating pain (and I think those atoms could be used for more bliss-boxes). And think we all think the guy who really enjoys torturing sentient, superintelligent dreams inside his roomy mind is sick and bad. > Of course this doesn't mean that we can't discuss what is good and > perhaps come to a common definition, but it does mean that you are (or > should be) the ultimate arbiter of what you want to consider as good, > and meaningful. Value and meaning are subjective experiences, and I am > happy with that, makes teh world more interesting. Not everybody agrees that they are subjective. And as the above examples show, these differences may matter across subjects. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 20:27:45 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:27:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 9:46 AM, BillK wrote: > How a 5-Ounce Bird Stores 10,000 Maps in its Head > Robert Krulwich 12/3/2015 > > > > The mystery here, the deep mystery, is how do they manage to store so > much data in their heads? Since I recently encountered this article, I'm seeing applications for it everywhere: http://blog.kleinproject.org/?p=162 (Or I might be misunderstanding the article/concept, and I'm shopping various problems where it might be a solution) From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 20:12:33 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 12:12:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2015 3:18 AM, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > Can you fail at destiny? Succinct and probing question, Anders. May I quote with attribution? It's a fairly straightforward antinomy, but I know a few Slavs, at least, who might get a kick out of it. > Yes, philosophers are annoying :-) Nah, just "differently-pleasing". :) MMB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 3 21:28:23 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 21:28:23 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humanity?= In-Reply-To: References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> Message-ID: <5660B3F7.20100@aleph.se> On 2015-12-03 20:12, Michael Butler wrote: > > > On Dec 3, 2015 3:18 AM, "Anders Sandberg" > wrote: > > > Can you fail at destiny? > > Succinct and probing question, Anders. May I quote with attribution? > It's a fairly straightforward antinomy, but I know a few Slavs, at > least, who might get a kick out of it. > Sure! It does have a Slav ring to it. It is a bit like the Swedish semi-joke expression: "It is never too late to give up." > > Yes, philosophers are annoying :-) > > Nah, just "differently-pleasing". :) > That is also quotable. Or quote-apt, as a philosopher would say. (Then we get to a big debate in metaquotation theory about whether being quote-apt is an intrinsic property of a proposition, or a disposition, or just our folk-theory of the complex relationship between quoter and quotation.) -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 3 21:17:37 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:17:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: More Bird IQ demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d12e10$09801b40$1c8051c0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 12:28 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [Bulk] Re: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 9:46 AM, BillK wrote: > How a 5-Ounce Bird Stores 10,000 Maps in its Head Robert Krulwich > 12/3/2015 > > -stores-10000-maps-in-its-head/> > > >...The mystery here, the deep mystery, is how do they manage to store so > much data in their heads? >...Since I recently encountered this article, I'm seeing applications for it everywhere: http://blog.kleinproject.org/?p=162 >...Mike It is mysterious, but brains somehow store information much more efficiently than we can with computers. This should be no real surprise to those who follow computer graphics in cinema. There was a Pixar film (do we still call it a film?) which featured some of their latest tech magic. A scene which is most impressive showed a field of grass on a blustery day. Perhaps you have seen a wheat field on such a day; the wind creates ripples and waves. That in itself is a thing of beauty. Perhaps it was the inspiration for the second line right after spacious skies, the amber waves of grain. Pixar figured out a way to do jillions of animated blades of grass, to create that moving image. In the Khan Academy computer graphics course, they explain how that was done. The math behind it is so clever; it doesn't take a lot of code and it is super-efficient. Until I saw how they do it, I sucked. I had no idea how one would generate a computer graphic of an amber wave of grain. My way would have been super inefficient. It is easy enough to extrapolate that lesson to brains. We know there are all these cells, we know there are synapses and so forth. But we don't know how brains respond to images. We don't know how brains store information. We have every reason to believe the way computers do it is grossly inefficient compared to brains. My fond hope is that we will do a brain sim good enough to store info in this more efficient manner, analogous to Pixar's cool trick they used on the grass. spike From hibbert at mydruthers.com Fri Dec 4 06:47:06 2015 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 22:47:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566136EA.3080008@mydruthers.com> BillK wrote: > > How a 5-Ounce Bird Stores 10,000 Maps in its Head > Robert Krulwich 12/3/2015 > > > > Quote: > It weighs only four or five ounces, its brain practically nothing, and > yet, oh my God, what this little bird can do. It?s astonishing. > > Around now, as we begin December, the Clark?s nutcracker has, > conservatively, 5,000 (and up to 20,000) treasure maps in its head. > They?re accurate, detailed, and instantly retrievable. > > It?s been burying seeds since August. It?s hidden so many (one study > says almost 100,000 seeds) in the forest, meadows, and tree nooks that > it can now fly up, look down, and see little x?s marking those > spots?here, here, not there, but here?and do this for maybe a couple > of miles around. It will remember these x?s for the next nine months. When we were hiking in the high Sierras, we listened to a talk by one of the park rangers, who talked about the Clark's Nutcracker. According to him, it's even more amazing. They don't just remember the visible markers, they understand them well enough that they can find the nuts they buried even when there's 10 feet of snow. No, wait-when the snow drifts to 25 feet deep in places. They'll have a good enough idea of where they're going that they can dig down (diagonally, according to the ranger) through the snow to the spot they buried a nut 4 months earlier. Of course when the snow is laying thick on the ground is when they're hungriest, so it makes sense that they'd commit to memory, not the visible landmarks, but those that will still be visible when there's 10 feet of snow covering everything. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From butler.two.one at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 07:43:37 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 23:43:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration In-Reply-To: <566136EA.3080008@mydruthers.com> References: <566136EA.3080008@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2015 11:02 PM, "Chris Hibbert" wrote: ... > commit to memory, not the visible landmarks, but those that will still be visible when there's 10 feet of snow covering everything. That is /fricking EPIC/. And I never use that colloquialism. Talk about geocaching. ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 16:14:43 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 08:14:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] More Bird IQ demonstration In-Reply-To: References: <566136EA.3080008@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <24D6FA06-C25D-40B2-AF8E-1520296E02F8@gmail.com> O didn't ease everything in this thread, but was wondering if it's possible that there's some preprogrammed patterns for caching food. In other words, the birds tend to always, given certain landmarks, place food in certain places, over and over? I'm guessing they tested for that, so forgive my question if they did. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 4 18:18:15 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:18:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virgin to use 747 Message-ID: <000a01d12ec0$256946f0$703bd4d0$@att.net> I have long calculated a retired 747 would be a good launch platform to use as a first stage: they can be obtained at a reasonable price, they have a lot of reliability data, experienced pilots, you can remove a lot of weight from all those seats and passenger-comfort equipment, they have a sturdy backbone, forgiving aerodynamics (I am still astonished that a 747 could haul a space shuttle on its back) and it has the four-engine advantage. Makes sense that Branson would have one: http://www.virgingalactic.com/press/virgin-galactic-welcomes-cosmic-girl-to- fleet-of-space-access-vehicles/ 10 million for 200 kg to GEO or 400kg to LEO is a lower price than competing systems. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 18:57:13 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:57:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virgin to use 747 In-Reply-To: <000a01d12ec0$256946f0$703bd4d0$@att.net> References: <000a01d12ec0$256946f0$703bd4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2015 10:33 AM, "spike" wrote: > 10 million for 200 kg to GEO or 400kg to LEO is a lower price than competing systems. A little drizzle for your parade. The announcement mentions 200 kg to *sun* synchronous orbit. Ball-of-twine, near-polar orbit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 4 19:23:54 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 11:23:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] virgin to use 747 In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d12ec0$256946f0$703bd4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <002601d12ec9$51994b40$f4cbe1c0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Michael Butler Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 10:57 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] virgin to use 747 On Dec 4, 2015 10:33 AM, "spike" > wrote: > 10 million for 200 kg to GEO or 400kg to LEO is a lower price than competing systems. A little drizzle for your parade. The announcement mentions 200 kg to *sun* synchronous orbit. Ball-of-twine, near-polar orbit. Cool thanks I did miss that. I thought the ratio looked a little funny. In general to get to GEO, you need a different guidance system from one suitable for just reaching LEO. A rocket that could get 400 kg to LEO probably would be insufficient for getting 200 kg to LEO. Another way to look at it is this: it might be able to get 200 kg to GEO but part of that payload needs to be inertial guidance and fuel. It needs to be the kind of fuel which can sit idle for the six hour trip to apogee, then once it gets there, figure out where it is, orient the business end aft, restart the thruster, shut it off again when the right delta V is achieved. Then it needs the inertial reference equipment on board and station-keeping thrusters and such. So for GEO, it isn?t exactly clear what they are calling payload. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 20:16:29 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 15:16:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the largest telescope in the world ?,? but ? now it looks like it will never be built because? today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded ?its? construction permit ?; they think ? it would offend the religious sensibilities of the native Hawaiians who believe ? the place? ?is not really a? mountain ?but ? is "Wao Akua," the realm of the ?G? ods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father ?,? ?or some such crapola. The court decreed that building an instrument that would teach us more about the universe would somehow defile the sacredness of the place. So in the fight between cosmology and Wao Akua ? ?the law decreed that Wao Akua ? and ignorance is more important than Science and knowledge. The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 20:52:24 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 14:52:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 2:16 PM, John Clark wrote: > The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the > largest telescope in the world > ?,? > but > ? now it looks like it will never be built because? > today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded > ?its? > construction permit > ?; > they think ? > it would offend the religious sensibilities of the native Hawaiians who > believe > ? the place? > ?is not really a? > mountain > ?but ? > is "Wao Akua," the realm of the > ?G? > ods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father > ?,? > > ?or some such crapola. The court decreed that building an instrument that > would teach us more about the universe would somehow defile the sacredness > of the place. > So in the fight between cosmology and > Wao Akua > ? ?the law decreed that > Wao Akua > ? and ignorance is more important than Science and knowledge. The > Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. > > John K Clark ? > ?Are you surprised? Nah. Supersensitivity seems catching now, doesn't it? But it's not just the religious people. It started with horses, then boats, then planes - the world moved in on nearly everyone on earth and disrupted their lives in many 'good' ways (our music, soft drinks, meds, etc.) but also threatened cultures thousands of years old with change. This is part of the Islam problem. When threat appears, fear rules first and logic and morality disappear like a knee jerk response. Yeah, this is just good common sense and not esoteric psychology, and but every time it happens people seem surprised that conservatives don't give it up and join the modern world (never mind learning probability and diagnosing the real threat from terrorists!). bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 4 21:31:47 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 13:31:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [Bulk] [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the largest telescope in the world, But now it looks like it will never be built because? today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded ?its? construction permit? ? John this is unnecessarily negative. The telescope construction will resume. It isn?t about religion either; that?s only the silly excuse. We in California know the ?sacred place? game. People who claim ancestry going back to ancient times can jack up governments for payoffs before they will get out of court on building permits. The way the law was written during the term of a corrupt California governor was so open ended, it requires almost no evidence for a tribal group to claim an area as sacred. They can tie up projects for years in the courts. Most of the time the developers choose to pay them off and pass along the cost to the homeowner or business. California?s high speed rail will soon find itself drowning in this sort of thing, but only after construction begins. Then, sacred sites will be discovered everywhere right in the path of that train. Once the ancient religion crowd is paid off, the environmental crowd will start to discover endangered species everywhere in the train?s path. What is going on in Hawaii is just that: native Hawaiians have learned the lesson well. They are playing the old sacred place game. They waited until there was plenty of investment in the site to escalate the court battle. Construction has been going on there since 2009. If the builders chose to abandon that site and move it to another site, the native Hawaiians would again wait until plenty of investment has been made, then they would claim Mama Mountain met with Papa Sky at the new site, and stand there with palms up until those hands were filled with cash. None of this really has anything to do with religion. >?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. ?John K Clark ? Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 21:47:03 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 16:47:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe try and learn more about the universe by studying native Hawaiian religion. Especially cosmogonies. I've found that religions around the world tend to retain a similar universal origin story that is very compelling, abstract, and similar to the scientific perspective. The humans of old studied the heavens and natural events for hundreds of thousands of years; I think that gives their protophysics intuition credibility. Imagine you had a computer that, for a hundred millennia, recorded the position of the sun and stars, weather, natural selection of flora and fauna, geophysical processes, and how all of these interacted. I wouldn't be surprised if that computer produced valuable insight. Back then when all there was to do was look at shit, have sex, and try not to die, everyone thought about nature all the time. The stars were what they got instead of TV. I think they were all probably smarter than the average American. And they knew how to survive. Unlike, I'm positive, most of us--but I wouldn't be surprised if Spike had some boy scout know how. Side question, I wonder, when did humans start having sex like today--passionately, and with with the pleasure of both parties considered? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 22:11:12 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 16:11:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] scifi book Message-ID: Truly excellent: Joe Haldeman's Old Twentieth. Best representation of an AI awakened - by far. Don't peek at the ending. You'll be glad you didn't. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 22:13:44 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 16:13:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. ?John K Clark ? Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? spike The antiscience party, Spike, as you well know. bill w On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Maybe try and learn more about the universe by studying native Hawaiian > religion. Especially cosmogonies. I've found that religions around the > world tend to retain a similar universal origin story that is very > compelling, abstract, and similar to the scientific perspective. > > The humans of old studied the heavens and natural events for hundreds of > thousands of years; I think that gives their protophysics intuition > credibility. Imagine you had a computer that, for a hundred millennia, > recorded the position of the sun and stars, weather, natural selection of > flora and fauna, geophysical processes, and how all of these interacted. I > wouldn't be surprised if that computer produced valuable insight. > > Back then when all there was to do was look at shit, have sex, and try not > to die, everyone thought about nature all the time. The stars were what > they got instead of TV. I think they were all probably smarter than the > average American. And they knew how to survive. Unlike, I'm positive, > most of us--but I wouldn't be surprised if Spike had some boy scout know > how. > > Side question, I wonder, when did humans start having sex like > today--passionately, and with with the pleasure of both parties considered? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 22:17:29 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 14:17:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Maybe try and learn more about the universe by studying native Hawaiian > religion. Especially cosmogonies. I've found that religions around the > world tend to retain a similar universal origin story that is very > compelling, abstract, and similar to the scientific perspective. > > The humans of old studied the heavens and natural events for hundreds of > thousands of years; I think that gives their protophysics intuition > credibility. Imagine you had a computer that, for a hundred millennia, > recorded the position of the sun and stars, weather, natural selection of > flora and fauna, geophysical processes, and how all of these interacted. I > wouldn't be surprised if that computer produced valuable insight. > > Back then when all there was to do was look at shit, have sex, and try not > to die, everyone thought about nature all the time. The stars were what > they got instead of TV. I think they were all probably smarter than the > average American. And they knew how to survive. Unlike, I'm positive, > most of us--but I wouldn't be surprised if Spike had some boy scout know > how. > > Side question, I wonder, when did humans start having sex like > today--passionately, and with with the pleasure of both parties considered? > There's a difference between learning about these cultures, myths, and ideas and using particular edicts by spokespeople for those cultures to decide specific policies or project. We can study cultures and the like and still build a telescope on that mountain. (Of course, not building it there does NOT stop the whole science of astronomy. There are plenty of other setbacks and priorities that could equally end up going against telescope construction there.) Would you hold the same position, I wonder, if Christian or Judaic fundamentalists wanted a fossil site to go unexplored because their sacred books or traditions -- as interpreted by them, of course -- said the site must remain untouched? Or take it to a further extreme, some disease shouldn't be studied in an attempt to treat or cure it because it might offend the gods or god? Also, regarding these ancient cosmogonies, yes, they might code something, but it might tell us far less about the universe and more about the human psyche. That's not so bad, but one needn't, for the most, keep a particular space sacred simply because of that. (It might be different if this were an archaeological site, where the issue was destroying the site to build something else, where other places might do as well. To be sure, Hawaii isn't the only place to put a telescope.) This reminds me of things like scapulimancy, where this does seem to tell us something about humans, but I wouldn't want to base where I got my next meal on it. (See _The Statues That Walked: Unraveling the Mystery of Easter Island_ by Terry Hunt and Carl Lipo. They bring up how scapulimancy might have randomized hunting game in a way that helped those practicing it survive -- because the practicing group wouldn't over-hunt an area. Of course, if that's why it worked, the practitioners were blissfully unaware of that. The same sort of thing might apply to astrology: it doesn't really do what it says it does, but it has other effects which make it stick around as something humans do. This is probably how we should study those ancient cosmogonies.) I can also see this being a money issue -- maybe intentionally so. Spike raised this issue, but wouldn't it be good, as a politician, to have warring factions one could play peacemaker for and charge a fee to? I'm not saying that's what's happening here. Just tossing out the notion that it might be what sometimes does happen. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 22:30:02 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 14:30:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 2:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. ?John K Clark ? > > Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? > > spike > > > The antiscience party, Spike, as you well know. bill w > I definitely agree that the GOP seems to be the anti-science party, but I wonder if that's actually true or just a perception. I bring this up not because I'm sympathetic toward the GOP, but because it's often the case that politics makes strange bedfellows and that the popular image of something, even outside politics, is quite off the mark. For instance, the popular image of the GOP is as the frugal party, the party against the growth of government. Yet there are plenty of studies to indicate that Republicans are more proliferate spenders and tend to grow government larger than their Democratic adversaries. (Reagan, for instance, grew the government more than Carter. Bush II was a far bigger spender and grower than Clinton. And Bush II had a Republican Congress for much of his two terms to help along here. Yet the popular image was both these guys were chopping the government back like they were closet anarchists.) My guess here, too, is that there might be some more complicated pro and anti science stuff happening here, but that some of this might be agenda specific or faction specific. For instance, it might be that Aboriginal concerns are more likely to fall under the Democratic Party's faction umbrella than the GOP's -- in which case, even if the Democrats tend to be more pro-science, they might swing the other way with this one. That's just me speculating. I haven't looked at the case to see who's weighing in here from the various parties. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 4 22:41:43 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:41:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566216A7.2090300@aleph.se> On 2015-12-04 21:47, Will Steinberg wrote: > > Maybe try and learn more about the universe by studying native > Hawaiian religion. Especially cosmogonies. I've found that religions > around the world tend to retain a similar universal origin story that > is very compelling, abstract, and similar to the scientific perspective. > Yes, my ancestors figured out that the world was created when fire and ice mixed. Then a giant cow emerged from the nothingness, licking a giant from the ice. When he was murdered the current world was built from the carcass. Clouds are pieces of brain. Just like in current science. > Side question, I wonder, when did humans start having sex like > today--passionately, and with with the pleasure of both parties > considered? > There is actually some research on this. One relevant paper is Eastwick, P. W. (2009). Beyond the pleistocene: using phylogeny and constraint to inform the evolutionary psychology of human mating. /Psychological bulletin/, 135(5), 794. http://pauleastwick.com/s/Eastwick2009PBull.pdf which suggests you should expect it to have emerged in /Homo erectus/ about 2 mya. Basically, the IMHO dominant view in the field is that romantic love is a ?commitment device? for motivating pair-bonding in humans. We need it beyond the normal mammalian mothering instincts/maternal-child bonding because of the long infancy requires reliable two parent rearing, and evolution likely exapted the maternal-child bonding system into a pair-bonding system between the parents. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 4 23:35:50 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 15:35:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e501d12eec$8371ae00$8a550a00$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg >? Unlike, I'm positive, most of us--but I wouldn't be surprised if Spike had some boy scout know how? Well sure, but I have another side question on that. If you were really up against it, could you figure out what to do? I think we would. Plenty wouldn?t survive, but if we were suddenly separated from our technology, we could figure out rudimentary shelter and perhaps even figure out how to bag animals enough to survive. I have been watching the Nova series on Neanderthals. When I see these hairy ancestors (3.2%!) carving off hunks of zebra with knapped flint, I get a vague urge to try that. >?Side question, I wonder, when did humans start having sex like today--passionately, and with with the pleasure of both parties considered? A related question: when did that stop? It was scarce for a while, and is still in some places. I have observed that even non-human beasts seem to derive a certain pleasure from copulation. This guy looked like he was having fun, right up until THE END: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8gCIm-Nh0U She seems to be a bit disappointed and bewildered. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 00:51:15 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 19:51:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:31 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > John this is unnecessarily negative. The telescope construction will > resume. > ?Perhaps it will get built after all, but probably not in Hawaii. I think the astronomers should tell mother earth and father sky to stick Wao Akua up their asses and build the Thirty Meter Telescope in Chile's Atacama desert; it already has many of the world's best telescopes and there is plenty of room for more. > ?> ? > It isn?t about religion either; that?s only the silly excuse. > > ?I disagree. I would have more respect for them if they were just doing it for the money but I don't think that is the case. I think they're sincere, and some of the greatest fools on this planet are sincere. ? > > >> ?> ? >> ?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. > > > > Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? > ?The ? ? party in which the top 3 presidential candidates ?are ? Donald Trump, Ben Carson and ? ? Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. ?The same party that has? ? Jeb (evolution should not be taught in schools) Bush ? ? and Mike ( ? ? Darwinism is not an established ? ? scientific ?fact? ? it is a theory) Huckabee and Marco ( whether the Earth was created in 7 days, or 7 actual eras I?m not sure we?ll ever be able to answer that ?i? t?s one of the great mysteries) Rubio. ?I am not referring to the party ?of Hillary (I believe in evolution) Clinton. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 01:48:49 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 19:48:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> Message-ID: ?John Clark wrote: I am not referring to the party ?of Hillary (I believe in evolution) Clinton. ------- I suggest that the word 'belief' is very wrongly applied to science. What is wrong with saying "Darwin's theory and the modifications that succeeded it are the best ways by far of accounting for the evidence we have." This is different from a belief in evolution. Belief is an act of faith. Faith in things and processes unseen, unobservable by any means, other than interpretation of events that could be more easily explained otherwise, has no place in science - I think we can all agree on that So statements about science and about faith, including religious faith, have very little in common. Put another way, the epistemology of science and of religion are totally different. Empiricism has no place in religion and authoritarianism has no place in science (or shouldn't have!). Bill W On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 6:51 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:31 PM, spike wrote: > > >> ?> ? >> John this is unnecessarily negative. The telescope construction will >> resume. >> > > ?Perhaps it will get built after all, but probably not in Hawaii. I think > the astronomers should tell mother earth and father sky to stick Wao Akua > up their asses and build the Thirty Meter Telescope in Chile's Atacama > desert; it already has many of the world's best telescopes and there is > plenty of room for more. > > >> ?> ? >> It isn?t about religion either; that?s only the silly excuse. >> >> > ?I disagree. I would have more respect for them if they were just doing it > for the money but I don't think that is the case. I think they're sincere, > and some of the greatest fools on this planet are sincere. ? > > >> > >>> ?> ? >>> ?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. >> >> >> >> Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? >> > > ?The > ? ? > party in which the top 3 presidential candidates > ?are ? > Donald Trump, Ben Carson and > ? ? > Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. > ?The same party that has? > ? > Jeb (evolution should not be taught in schools) Bush > ? ? > and Mike ( > ? ? > Darwinism is not an established > ? ? > scientific > ?fact? > ? > it is a theory) Huckabee and Marco ( whether the Earth was created in 7 > days, or 7 actual eras I?m not sure we?ll ever be able to answer that > ?i? > t?s one of the great mysteries) Rubio. > > ?I am not referring to the party ?of Hillary (I believe in evolution) > Clinton. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 02:46:40 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 18:46:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> Message-ID: <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> ?The party in which the top 3 presidential candidates ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. ? John K Clark Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a self-made multi-billionaire. Ted Cruz: graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School magna cum laude, 1995 world debating champion. Ben Carson: brain surgeon. John that business with creationism is the political sales pitch; we don?t know what these guys believe. Political parties are a coalition. The Republican party has as part of its coalition religion fundamentalists. Any leader in that party must talk the talk, regardless of their beliefs. The credentials listed above are not those of world class ignoramuses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 03:59:52 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:59:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: Anders, I think the story of Muspelheim and Niflheim combining to produce the universe has a lot of value. This beginning is echoed in almost every religion, where, basically, something energetic, psychic, hot, or fast-moving interacts with another thing that is laconic, cthonic, cold and slow-moving, and that creates the universe. With very broad brushes I might relate the slow, inward-moving, yin-like force to the strong force and gravity, and the fast, outward-moving, yang-like force to the weak force and electromagnetism. I'm not sure about the cow. Something about the coaxing of humanity out of nature by selection. With a tongue. But no I wasn't saying don't build the telescope, build it wherever. I just like to aggravate JKC's obstinance. By the way John I am completely psychic, your shirt is purple right now and you had four waffles for breakfast. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 04:40:06 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:40:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: I haven't read the thread closely, but might I ask, semirhetorically, who had, or acquired, title to the land in question, and how they got it? Me, I seem to recall a story that a plutocrat named Dole had gunboats brought in over the objections of the US Secretary of State. During the Pacific Adventurism phase of American foreign policy. Everyone else had, or was seeking, territory thereabouts; the USA had manifest destiny to play catch-up on. Why would you EVER let an indigenous people win anything [back]? It's virtually UN-AMERICAN!!! /relurk On Dec 4, 2015 8:01 PM, "Will Steinberg" wrote: > Anders, I think the story of Muspelheim and Niflheim combining to produce > the universe has a lot of value. This beginning is echoed in almost every > religion, where, basically, something energetic, psychic, hot, or > fast-moving interacts with another thing that is laconic, cthonic, cold and > slow-moving, and that creates the universe. With very broad brushes I > might relate the slow, inward-moving, yin-like force to the strong force > and gravity, and the fast, outward-moving, yang-like force to the weak > force and electromagnetism. > > I'm not sure about the cow. Something about the coaxing of humanity out > of nature by selection. With a tongue. > > But no I wasn't saying don't build the telescope, build it wherever. I > just like to aggravate JKC's obstinance. > > By the way John I am completely psychic, your shirt is purple right now > and you had four waffles for breakfast. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 05:07:29 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 00:07:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 5:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >?The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. ?John K Clark ? > > Ehhhh? ? Which party should be pleased? > > spike > > > The antiscience party, Spike, as you well know. bill w > ### You mean the party that supports climate warming propaganda, denial of human evolutionary science, anti-vaccine movements and Keynesian economics? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 05:13:25 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 21:13:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? Message-ID: https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/mark-zuckerberg-just-bought-26-days-of-world-peace-18305/ I reckon it's true that avoiding taxes is buying peace -- denying the beast some funding. Though I suspect the beast will find other means. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 05:26:00 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 00:26:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:31 PM, spike wrote: > > > > None of this really has anything to do with religion. > ### But yes it is, Spike! I am a deacon of the Church of Science (not to be confused with the Church of Scientology) and I see that the devil has struck again. Our good Lord Nikt, the God of Universes, bade us peer into the farthest gulfs of space, to learn of his divine handiwork, and now we are thwarted by the worshippers of ignorance, who deny us the True Knowledge. I will email my bishop forthwith, that appropriate legal action be taken as soon as possible. May your microscope, voltmeter and telescope bless you with the light of Knowledge! Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Fri Dec 4 21:02:34 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 13:02:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am surprised, even if I shouldn?t be. It?s bad enough when science is rejected because of irrational beliefs a few people actually believe, but it?s a whole added layer of ludicrous to reject science because of beliefs that nobody believes. And if anyone were to suggest that native Hawaiians actually can?t tell a god from a volcano, they?d be accused (rightly) of being racist idiots. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 4, 2015, at 12:52 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 2:16 PM, John Clark > wrote: > The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the largest telescope in the world?,? but? now it looks like it will never be built because? today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded ?its? construction permit?; they think ?it would offend the religious sensibilities of the native Hawaiians who believe? the place? ?is not really a? mountain ?but ?is "Wao Akua," the realm of the ?G?ods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father?,? ?or some such crapola. The court decreed that building an instrument that would teach us more about the universe would somehow defile the sacredness of the place. So in the fight between cosmology and Wao Akua? ?the law decreed that Wao Akua? and ignorance is more important than Science and knowledge. The Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. > > John K Clark ? > > ?Are you surprised? Nah. Supersensitivity seems catching now, doesn't it? > > But it's not just the religious people. It started with horses, then boats, then planes - the world moved in on nearly everyone on earth and disrupted their lives in many 'good' ways (our music, soft drinks, meds, etc.) but also threatened cultures thousands of years old with change. This is part of the Islam problem. > > When threat appears, fear rules first and logic and morality disappear like a knee jerk response. Yeah, this is just good common sense and not esoteric psychology, and but every time it happens people seem surprised that conservatives don't give it up and join the modern world (never mind learning probability and diagnosing the real threat from terrorists!). > > > bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at alice.it Sat Dec 5 10:56:48 2015 From: scerir at alice.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:56:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] CCC, aeons, Fermi "paradox", sir R.Penrose (link only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.00554v1.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 11:44:04 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:44:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 December 2015 at 05:13, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/mark-zuckerberg-just-bought-26-days-of-world-peace-18305/ > > I reckon it's true that avoiding taxes is buying peace -- denying the beast > some funding. Though I suspect the beast will find other means. > I doubt if this is correct for the US and other countries that operate on deficit financing. They already spend money they haven't got every month and just add it on to the national debt. Some people wonder how long this system can continue.......... BillK From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 5 14:32:43 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 14:32:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] CCC, aeons, Fermi "paradox", sir R.Penrose (link only) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5662F58B.2090706@aleph.se> On 2015-12-05 10:56, scerir wrote: > http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.00554v1.pdf Heh. I thought the CCC was pretty empirically dead after the devastating statistical criticisms those circles got two years ago or so. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at alice.it Sat Dec 5 15:10:36 2015 From: scerir at alice.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:10:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] CCC, aeons, Fermi "paradox", sir R.Penrose (link only) In-Reply-To: <5662F58B.2090706@aleph.se> References: <5662F58B.2090706@aleph.se> Message-ID: <2DFFC54DE3A140BCACFE458D047095A2@SerafinoHP> Right. Everyone in science pushes their own agenda! http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/12/07/penroses-cyclic-cosmology/ http://physics.princeton.edu/cmb50/videos/20150612_session6_2.mp4 ?Cosmologists are often in error but seldom in doubt.? ? Lev Davidovich Landau From: Anders Sandberg Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 3:32 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] CCC, aeons, Fermi "paradox", sir R.Penrose (link only) On 2015-12-05 10:56, scerir wrote: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.00554v1.pdf Heh. I thought the CCC was pretty empirically dead after the devastating statistical criticisms those circles got two years ago or so. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 15:45:32 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:45:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I propose a third way besides supporting science and opposing native religion on the one hand, and supporting native religion and opposing science on the other. I say one can support both and oppose none. Building an eye to see deeper into the Cosmos is the best way to honor the Gods, and it's what they really want us to do. From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 16:39:48 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:39:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00e501d12eec$8371ae00$8a550a00$@att.net> References: <00e501d12eec$8371ae00$8a550a00$@att.net> Message-ID: On 4 December 2015 at 23:35, spike wrote: > I have observed that even non-human beasts seem to > derive a certain pleasure from copulation. This guy looked like he was > having fun, right up until THE END: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8gCIm-Nh0U > > She seems to be a bit disappointed and bewildered. > I find that is the usual reaction of females. Often accompanied by 'Could you hurry up? I've got things to do'. ;) BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 16:41:42 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:41:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:46 PM, spike wrote: > > Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a > self-made multi-billionaire. Self Made? ? Trump inherited at least 40 million ? from his daddy in 1974. Since 1974 ?the S&P 500 has gone up 74 fold, if he had put his inheritance into a simple S&P index fund and reinvested the dividends today it would be worth 3.4 billion. Today after all of Trump's wheeling and dealing and all his art of the deal Bloomberg says Trump is worth 2.9 billion and Forbs says it's 4.5 billion; he would have done about as well with a invest it and forget it strategy. > ?> ? > Ted Cruz: graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School magna cum laude, > 1995 world debating champion. ?Ted Cruz is ignorant but he's not stupid and that's why of all the presidential candidates he scares me the most. Craig Mazin was Cruz's roommate and this is what he has to say about his fellow Princeton alumni: ? *"Ted Cruz was my roommate. I did not like him at all in college?.? And you know, I want to be clear, because Ted Cruz is a nightmare of a human being. I have plenty of problems with his politics, but truthfully his personality is so awful that 99 per cent of why I hate him is just his personality.? ??If he agreed with me on every issue, I would hate him only one per cent less.I would rather have anybody else be the president of the United States. Anyone. I would rather pick somebody from the phone book.?"?* > ?> ? > Ben Carson: brain surgeon. ?Ben Carson is a skilled mechanic with good manual dexterity who believes that Joseph of the Bible built the Egyptian Pyramids to store grain and the big bang theory ? is ? part of the ?fairy tales? pushed by ?high-faluting scientists? as a story of creation ?" but Carson does ?" believe in the six-day creation ?"? ? and thinks " the ? ? organs of the body completely refute evolution" and that ? ? Charles Darwin ? ? got the inspiration for his book ?from Satan . > > ?> ? > John that business with creationism is the political sales pitch; we don?t > know what these guys believe. ?I'd like to think they're just liars because I'd much rather a liar have his finger on the nuclear trigger than a fool, but I don't think they're liars, I think they're sincere and I think they're fools. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 16:53:18 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 08:53:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2558 BE, at 6:46 PM, spike wrote: > ?The party in which the top 3 presidential candidates > ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. ? John K Clark > > > Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a self-made multi-billionaire. If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess "self-made" is a useless term now. In my book, you're self-made when you start out from poverty -- not from being in the multimillionaire ranking. And this is leaving aside his Trump "earned" his money beyond his vast inheritance with a "little" help from eminent domain. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 16:56:40 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 10:56:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: ?I'd like to think they're just liars because I'd much rather a liar have his finger on the nuclear trigger than a fool, but I don't think they're liars, I think they're sincere and I think they're fools. John K Clark Do you think that there is a correlation between the outlandishness of an idea and the sincerity with which it is held? Put another way: if the ideas were conventional we might suspect that a PR firm or political consultants vetted the ideas. bill w On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 10:41 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:46 PM, spike wrote: > > > >> > Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a >> self-made multi-billionaire. > > > Self Made? > ? Trump inherited at least 40 > million > ? from his daddy in 1974. Since 1974 ?the S&P 500 has gone up 74 fold, if > he had put his inheritance into a simple S&P index fund and reinvested the > dividends today it would be worth 3.4 billion. Today after all of Trump's > wheeling and dealing and all his art of the deal Bloomberg says Trump is > worth 2.9 billion and Forbs says it's 4.5 billion; he would have done about > as well with a invest it and forget it strategy. > > >> ?> ? >> Ted Cruz: graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School magna cum laude, >> 1995 world debating champion. > > > ?Ted Cruz is ignorant but he's not stupid and that's why of all the > presidential candidates he scares me the most. Craig Mazin was > Cruz's roommate and this is what he has to say about his fellow Princeton > alumni: > > ? > > *"Ted Cruz was my roommate. I did not like him at all in college?.? And > you know, I want to be clear, because Ted Cruz is a nightmare of a human > being. I have plenty of problems with his politics, but truthfully his > personality is so awful that 99 per cent of why I hate him is just his > personality.? ??If he agreed with me on every issue, I would hate him only > one per cent less.I would rather have anybody else be the president of the > United States. Anyone. I would rather pick somebody from the phone book.?"?* > > >> ?> ? >> Ben Carson: brain surgeon. > > > ?Ben Carson is a skilled mechanic with good manual dexterity who believes > that Joseph of the Bible built the Egyptian Pyramids to store grain and the > big bang theory > ? is > ? > part of the ?fairy tales? pushed by ?high-faluting scientists? as a story > of creation > ?" but Carson does ?" > believe in the six-day creation > ?"? > ? and thinks " > the > ? ? > organs of the body completely refute evolution" and that > ? ? > Charles Darwin > ? ? > got the inspiration for his book > ?from Satan > . > > >> >> ?> ? >> John that business with creationism is the political sales pitch; we >> don?t know what these guys believe. > > > ?I'd like to think they're just liars because I'd much rather a liar have > his finger on the nuclear trigger than a fool, but I don't think they're > liars, I think they're sincere and I think they're fools. > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:05:30 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:05:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 Michael Butler wrote: > ?> ? > who had, or acquired, title to the land in question, and how they got it? > ? ? > Me, I seem to recall a story that a plutocrat named Dole had gunboats > brought in over the objections of the US Secretary of State. During the > Pacific Adventurism phase of American foreign policy. > > ?So more than a century ago Dole stole some land from American taxpayers who stole it from Britain who stole it from a native Hawaiian tribe who stole it from a different native Hawaiian tribe. And everybody involved in that history is now long dead. > ?> ? > Why would you EVER let an indigenous people win anything [back]? > > ?If the relatives of the ?indigenous people are also *ASTRONOMICALLY* ignorant people then I hope they never win anything back. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:25:38 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:25:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > Do you think that there is a correlation between the outlandishness of an > idea and the sincerity with which it is held? > ?I belief Bismarck is the capital ?of North Dakota but even if I'm wrong and it's really Fargo my view would not be outlandish, at least both cities are in the correct state. And if truth be told my belief is not all that sincere, if you started beating me with a rubber hose and insisted I say the capital is really Fargo I'd say it pretty quick. And my belief is not strong enough for me to put on a dynamite vest and blow myself up at a convention of Fargo believers. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:36:09 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:36:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 11:25 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?> ? >> Do you think that there is a correlation between the outlandishness of an >> idea and the sincerity with which it is held? >> > > ?I belief Bismarck is the capital ?of North Dakota but even if I'm wrong > and it's really Fargo my view would not be outlandish, at least both cities > are in the correct state. And if truth be told my belief is not all that > sincere, if you started beating me with a rubber hose and insisted I say > the capital is really Fargo I'd say it pretty quick. And my belief is not > strong enough for me to put on a dynamite vest and blow myself up at a > convention of Fargo believers. > > John K Clark > > > > ?Take Carson's ideas: wacky, right? It seems to me that really wacky >> ideas are almost always held very strongly, as their holders know that they >> are way out of the mainstream.? >> ? Conversely, mainstream ideas are often quite easy to change?, at least >> somewhat. Wacky idea holders, then, are going to be radical and very >> defensive, expecting to be attacked. >> > ?bill w? > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:41:10 2015 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:41:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, Can I post your comment on Scientific Transhumanism FB group (of course with due credit). https://www.facebook.com/groups/scientific.transhumanism/ Giovanni On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 3:16 PM, John Clark wrote: > The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the > largest telescope in the world > ?,? > but > ? now it looks like it will never be built because? > today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded > ?its? > construction permit > ?; > they think ? > it would offend the religious sensibilities of the native Hawaiians who > believe > ? the place? > ?is not really a? > mountain > ?but ? > is "Wao Akua," the realm of the > ?G? > ods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father > ?,? > > ?or some such crapola. The court decreed that building an instrument that > would teach us more about the universe would somehow defile the sacredness > of the place. > So in the fight between cosmology and > Wao Akua > ? ?the law decreed that > Wao Akua > ? and ignorance is more important than Science and knowledge. The > Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. > > John K Clark ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 17:46:56 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:46:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:41 PM, Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > John, > Can I post your comment on Scientific Transhumanism FB group (of course > with due credit). > ?Certainly. John K Clark ? > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/scientific.transhumanism/ > > Giovanni > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 3:16 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> The Thirty Meter Telescope on top of Mauna Kea would have been by far the >> largest telescope in the world >> ?,? >> but >> ? now it looks like it will never be built because? >> today the Hawaiian Supreme Court rescinded >> ?its? >> construction permit >> ?; >> they think ? >> it would offend the religious sensibilities of the native Hawaiians who >> believe >> ? the place? >> ?is not really a? >> mountain >> ?but ? >> is "Wao Akua," the realm of the >> ?G? >> ods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father >> ?,? >> >> ?or some such crapola. The court decreed that building an instrument that >> would teach us more about the universe would somehow defile the sacredness >> of the place. >> So in the fight between cosmology and >> Wao Akua >> ? ?the law decreed that >> Wao Akua >> ? and ignorance is more important than Science and knowledge. The >> Republican presidential candidates should be pleased. >> >> John K Clark ? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 17:34:57 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 09:34:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a401d12f83$43543b70$c9fcb250$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 1:03 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >?It?s bad enough when science is rejected because of irrational beliefs a few people actually believe, but it?s a whole added layer of ludicrous to reject science because of beliefs that nobody believes. And if anyone were to suggest that native Hawaiians actually can?t tell a god from a volcano, they?d be accused (rightly) of being racist idiots?Tara Maya Again the religion thing. Look at what has happened. We have a native group claiming a religion-based reason for declaring a site sacred which has already had extensive investment made in that site. Of course it is worth a ton of money. So they come up with a theory so outlandish it defies parody, which makes it even more credible as a religion, for the more outlandish the creation myth, the more likely it was derived by a race, which makes it even more sacred, which increases its value. Our politicians feed the beast. Once we start down this road, it isn?t at all clear how we turn back. Our politicians must make allegiances to religion incorporated in order to get elected. This means we are not only stuck with this kind of garbage, it gets worse over time. Note that if we try to identify one of the major US parties as the party of no religion, this is mistake. It may be the party of not-christianity, but it appears to embrace nearly everything else, including these telescope-extortionists. My proof will come with California?s high speed rail project: paying off various religious and native groups will become steadily more expensive as more track is laid. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 17:47:36 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 09:47:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> ...bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK >...I doubt if this is correct for the US and other countries that operate on deficit financing. They already spend money they haven't got every month and just add it on to the national debt. >...Some people wonder how long this system can continue...BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, by current extrapolations, our national retirement system will become insolvent in 2035. People who are not concerned by this fail to realize the depth of the crisis faced by those who are counting on it for survival. Perhaps they imagine we can just raise taxes to cover the cost. They fail to deal with the possibility that the generation of voters in 2035 will be unwilling to pay that, and will elect tax cutters instead. The reasoning would be sound: the older generation spent its own money and borrowed against the younger generation, so why should they vote to keep doubling down? Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a nation lives on borrowed money for a long time. Eventually the bills come due. I fear the outcome will range somewhere between extremely unpleasant to horrifying. spike From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 18:14:13 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 10:14:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: <00dc01d12f88$bf46c900$3dd45b00$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 8:42 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:46 PM, spike > wrote: > Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a self-made multi-billionaire. Self Made? ? Trump inherited at least 40 million ? from his daddy in 1974. Since 1974 ?the S&P 500 has gone up 74 fold, if he had put his inheritance into a simple S&P index fund and reinvested the dividends today it would be worth 3.4 billion. From: http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-historical-prices/table/by-year Dec 4, 2015 2,091.62 Jan 1, 1974 96.11 A factor of about 22. His inherited wealth would have been about 880 million, rather than 3 to 4 billion. Beating the stock market by a factor of 4 over four decades is an impressive winning streak, incompatible with the decription world-class ignoramus. Guys whose personal wealth is primarily in the form of real estate in the USA are exactly the kind we want in that office: they are unlikely to nuke anyone and would discourage congressional overspending. ?> ? Ted Cruz: graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School magna cum laude, 1995 world debating champion. ? "Ted Cruz was my roommate. I did not like him at all in college ?.? ? Ja I am not claiming Ted Cruz is a pleasant person or that his college roommate likes him. I am claiming that world-class ignoramus doesn?t describe him. ?> ?Ben Carson: brain surgeon. ?>?Ben Carson is a skilled mechanic with good manual dexterity? ?who graduated from medical school, not exactly a gathering place for world-class ignorami. Ja, I agree Ben Carson is not qualified for this office. The voters are gradually concluding the same. We have seen the damage that can be done by electing to that office an unqualified person. I do find it entertaining in a grim way. If we extrapolate the 2016 presidential election between the two current front runners, we will have a contest between one who can do anything she wants without legal repercussions vs one who can say anything he wants without political repercussions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 18:17:50 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 10:17:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> Message-ID: <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. ? John K Clark Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a self-made multi-billionaire. >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sat Dec 5 18:54:10 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 10:54:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: <4A3FA66C-9240-4C6E-9B9E-10ED12BE8489@taramayastales.com> I could make a small fortune, if I had a large fortune to start with. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 5, 2015, at 10:17 AM, spike wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org ] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan > ? >> ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. ? John K Clark >> Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a self-made multi-billionaire. > > >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan > > > Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. > > I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 20:07:13 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:07:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 10:17 AM, spike wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan > *?* > > ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses all. > ? John K Clark > > Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a > self-made multi-billionaire. > > > > >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess > "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan > > > > > > Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. > That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor > of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. > > > > I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. > The luck of what? Connections with those in power that one can influence with a quite large inherited fortune? Also, what is the use of his particular business acumen here? So he can take a huge fortune and make it bigger. Why should such a man be given any power over others? And, in this particular discussion, would you say he's a good judge of what direction scientific research should go? By the way, I know one person who inherited approximately $1200 from his parents. He's made a six figure salary for about a dozen years. Would you say he's on the same level of Trump? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 21:08:49 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 15:08:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: My proof will come with California?s high speed rail project: paying off various religious and native groups will become steadily more expensive as more track is laid. spike Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the broken treatises. bill w On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 10:17 AM, spike wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan >> *?* >> >> ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses >> all. ? John K Clark >> >> Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a >> self-made multi-billionaire. >> >> >> >> >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess >> "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan >> >> >> >> >> >> Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. >> That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor >> of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. >> >> >> >> I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. >> > > The luck of what? Connections with those in power that one can influence > with a quite large inherited fortune? Also, what is the use of his > particular business acumen here? So he can take a huge fortune and make it > bigger. Why should such a man be given any power over others? > > And, in this particular discussion, would you say he's a good judge of > what direction scientific research should go? > > By the way, I know one person who inherited approximately $1200 from his > parents. He's made a six figure salary for about a dozen years. Would you > say he's on the same level of Trump? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 21:12:30 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 15:12:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 11:47 AM, spike wrote: > > ...bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK > > > >...I doubt if this is correct for the US and other countries that operate > on deficit financing. > They already spend money they haven't got every month and just add it on to > the national debt. > > >...Some people wonder how long this system can continue...BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, by current extrapolations, our national retirement system will > become > insolvent in 2035. People who are not concerned by this fail to realize > the > depth of the crisis faced by those who are counting on it for survival. > Perhaps they imagine we can just raise taxes to cover the cost. They fail > to deal with the possibility that the generation of voters in 2035 will be > unwilling to pay that, and will elect tax cutters instead. > > The reasoning would be sound: the older generation spent its own money and > borrowed against the younger generation, so why should they vote to keep > doubling down? > > Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a > nation > lives on borrowed money for a long time. Eventually the bills come due. I > fear the outcome will range somewhere between extremely unpleasant to > horrifying. > > spike > > ?Japan is experiencing a dearth of babies and a big excess of the elderly. They are trying to support increased birth rates. Where will they live? Underground? We really don't see much about population control lately, and to me that's a big mistake. We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 21:16:06 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 13:16:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Trump and Thaddeus Russell/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: By the way, "renegade historian" Thaddeus Russell has an interesting view on one positive aspect of Donald Trump's campaign -- something that's linked to Trump's character. This is that he's deflated much of the awe and pomp surrounding contemporary politics. See http://inspirelandpodcast.com/2015/12/03/e35-thaddeus-russell-renegade-historian/ Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 22:19:31 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 14:19:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:44 AM, BillK wrote: > On 5 December 2015 at 05:13, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > > https://www.sovereignman.com/trends/mark-zuckerberg-just-bought-26-days-of-world-peace-18305/ > > > > I reckon it's true that avoiding taxes is buying peace -- denying the > beast > > some funding. Though I suspect the beast will find other means. > > > > I doubt if this is correct for the US and other countries that operate > on deficit financing. > They already spend money they haven't got every month and just add it > on to the national debt. > > Some people wonder how long this system can continue.......... > There are limits -- very soft ones, apparently -- on deficit financing. Actually, they can rely on taxation, borrowing (deficits), and inflation. (At the extreme, they can rely on outright confiscation -- of non-money goods and services -- but that's a rare occurrence -- unless you consider forfeiture and eminent domain as examples. Still, those don't make a big part of the budget of the US federal government.) How long can this continue? If history is any guide, probably for a long, long time. If the deficit gets too big, they can switch to taxes and inflation, pay enough of it down and wait for it to be less of a public concern, then switch back to deficits. This has been the history of the US federal finance: switching between funding regimes that rely on one of these three to another. I believe economist Roger Garrison covered this a few years ago. Anyhow, no reason to think there's a natural end to this. Yes, sure, it can collapse at any moment, but my guess is it won't for a long time to come. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 5 22:25:58 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 14:25:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: <005701d12fab$eacbe880$c063b980$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ? ?>? We really don't see much about population control lately? Indeed sir? What of all the talk of attempting to close the southern US border with Mexico? I do find it odd that the US could even discuss trying to limit our CO2 emissions when we have very little control of the crowds streaming across that border every day. That will overwhelm anything else we try to do. >? We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? bill w? BillW, the reason why we are waiting is that the current holders of power in the federal government have no strong desire to close that border. Until we do, the population will grow like crazy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 23:40:58 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 15:40:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 1:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > My proof will come with California?s high speed rail project: paying off various religious and native groups will become steadily more expensive as more track is laid. spike > > > > Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the broken treatises. bill w > The corrective for this is probably returning where possible property, but I'm not sure what else -- aside from overthrowing the government. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 23:48:17 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 17:48:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <005701d12fab$eacbe880$c063b980$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <005701d12fab$eacbe880$c063b980$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 4:25 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *?* > > > > ?>? We really don't see much about population control lately? > > > > Indeed sir? What of all the talk of attempting to close the southern US > border with Mexico? > > > > I do find it odd that the US could even discuss trying to limit our CO2 > emissions when we have very little control of the crowds streaming across > that border every day. That will overwhelm anything else we try to do. > > > > >? We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? bill w? > > > > BillW, the reason why we are waiting is that the current holders of power > in the federal government have no strong desire to close that border. > Until we do, the population will grow like crazy. > > > > spike > ?I am not talking about just moving people around. I am talking about limiting births. Worldwide. Two to a couple, if I were a dictator. Actually, I think we in the US lost more than we gained this year, as more went back to Mexico than came. bill w? > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 00:19:46 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 19:19:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 4:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace > > Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant > guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in > the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the > broken treatises. > ### Guilt over Indians is unjustified. They were violent, frequently enough cannibalistic, ignorant, ignoble and their plight is of their own doing. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 00:28:32 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:28:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 4:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 4:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace >> >> Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the broken treatises. >> > > ### Guilt over Indians is unjustified. They were violent, frequently enough cannibalistic, ignorant, ignoble and their plight is of their own doing. I disagree. They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, especially their children, deserved that. The cases in the US where they tried to live peacefully with Whites, but then were massacred. Take the example of Sand Creek in Colorado was not of their own doing, but that of an authoritarian governor and a sociopathic military commander. I bring this up because the Sand Creek Massacre kicked off a wave of violence ending in wiping out the Plains Indians. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 02:21:00 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 18:21:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2015 1:14 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > ?Japan is experiencing a dearth of babies and a big excess of the elderly. They are trying to support increased birth rates. Where will they live? Underground? In the vast tracts of untouched land. Those who believe we are running out of room should take an honest look at Google Earth in satellite mode zoomed out to show at least a full continent, until they realize why they can't see most urban areas unless they're marked or zoomed in upon. > We really don't see much about population control lately, and to me that's a big mistake. We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? I would like to see humanity some day number in the trillions, so that those services that are hard to financially justify to mere billions may come into service of humanity. This vision includes expanding the resources we are able to tap (likely including extraterrestrial resources), to support that many in comfort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 02:33:49 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 21:33:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 4:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 4:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace >> >> Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant >> guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in >> the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the >> broken treatises. >> > > ### Guilt over Indians is unjustified. They were violent, frequently > enough cannibalistic, ignorant, ignoble and their plight is of their own > doing. > > > I disagree. They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last > one of them, especially their children, deserved that. The cases in the US > where they tried to live peacefully with Whites, but then were massacred. > ### I don't believe it. Indians as a rule did not live peacefully with their neighbors, regardless of race or creed. Existing primitive tribes are warlike, treacherous, and virulently xenophobic. The Amerind were the same, regardless of what a century of whitewashing tried to tell us. And not every last was wiped out - in fact, the ones who were peaceful enough and willing to learn from whites, contributed to our society. Just ask Sen. Warren. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 05:05:00 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 21:05:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 6:33 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>> On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 4:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> ### Guilt over Indians is unjustified. They were violent, frequently enough cannibalistic, ignorant, ignoble and their plight is of their own doing. >> >> I disagree. They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, especially their children, deserved that. The cases in the US where they tried to live peacefully with Whites, but then were massacred. > > ### I don't believe it. Indians as a rule did not live peacefully with their neighbors, regardless of race or creed. Existing primitive tribes are warlike, treacherous, and virulently xenophobic. The Amerind were the same, regardless of what a century of whitewashing tried to tell us. And not every last was wiped out - in fact, the ones who were peaceful enough and willing to learn from whites, contributed to our society. Just ask Sen. Warren. I think you're using this as an excuse. Whites, likewise, warred with each other, including, for the US, its Civil War, which was brutal in the extreme. Some American Indians did get along with Whites and lived peacefully. They had treaties, for instance. But these were, as a rule, violated by the US government. I specifically brought up the example of the Sand Creek Massacre because that's exactly what it was: a massacre by the US military. I'm a little shocked here. Can you imagine aliens landing on Earth and perhaps massacring humans based on the same arguments you're making: humans fight amongst themselves, so anything done to them is fine? And, oh, it'd be fine as long as they didn't wipe out all humans, but left a tiny fraction alive, which they herded into the least desirable locations -- in order for their kind to take the best land? And this has nothing to do with whitewashing. I completely agree there were warlike tribes and individuals. That's not an valid justification for anything goes against all of them. It doesn't give a carte blanche on war. And this has nothing to do with respect for their religions, which I freely urinate, vomit, and defecate upon. (That goes for all your religions.) People have rights; that's what I respect. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 06:59:38 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 22:59:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Man=E2=80=99s_Greatest_Achievement_=E2=80=93_Niko?= =?utf-8?q?la_Tesla_on_Akashic_engineering_and_the_future_of_humani?= =?utf-8?q?ty?= In-Reply-To: <5660B3F7.20100@aleph.se> References: <565F2469.9070304@aleph.se> <56600A34.8040506@aleph.se> <566024A6.9020207@aleph.se> <5660B3F7.20100@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2015 1:29 PM, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > It is a bit like the Swedish semi-joke expression: "It is never too late to give up." Very nice, and I'm sure any sisu-loving Finn might wince. >> > Yes, philosophers are annoying :-) >> >> Nah, just "differently-pleasing". :) > > > That is also quotable. Or quote-apt, as a philosopher would say. Thanks. / > > (Then we get to a big debate in metaquotation theory about whether being quote-apt is an intrinsic property of a proposition, or a disposition, or just our folk-theory of the complex relationship between quoter and quotation.) > EVERYTHING is just folk-theory. [/me quickly ducks behind something large and heavy. ;) Was joke: you laugh now. /slav] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 13:57:48 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 07:57:48 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 6:33 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> On Dec 5, 2558 BE, at 4:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < >> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ### Guilt over Indians is unjustified. They were violent, frequently >> enough cannibalistic, ignorant, ignoble and their plight is of their own >> doing. >> >> >> I disagree. They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last >> one of them, especially their children, deserved that. The cases in the US >> where they tried to live peacefully with Whites, but then were massacred. >> > > ### I don't believe it. Indians as a rule did not live peacefully with > their neighbors, regardless of race or creed. Existing primitive tribes are > warlike, treacherous, and virulently xenophobic. The Amerind were the same, > regardless of what a century of whitewashing tried to tell us. And not > every last was wiped out - in fact, the ones who were peaceful enough and > willing to learn from whites, contributed to our society. Just ask Sen. > Warren. > > > I think you're using this as an excuse. Whites, likewise, warred with each > other, including, for the US, its Civil War, which was brutal in the > extreme. Some American Indians did get along with Whites and lived > peacefully. They had treaties, for instance. But these were, as a rule, > violated by the US government. > > I specifically brought up the example of the Sand Creek Massacre because > that's exactly what it was: a massacre by the US military. > > I'm a little shocked here. Can you imagine aliens landing on Earth and > perhaps massacring humans based on the same arguments you're making: humans > fight amongst themselves, so anything done to them is fine? And, oh, it'd > be fine as long as they didn't wipe out all humans, but left a tiny > fraction alive, which they herded into the least desirable locations -- in > order for their kind to take the best land? > > And this has nothing to do with whitewashing. I completely agree there > were warlike tribes and individuals. That's not an valid justification for > anything goes against all of them. It doesn't give a carte blanche on war. > > And this has nothing to do with respect for their religions, which I > freely urinate, vomit, and defecate upon. (That goes for all your > religions.) People have rights; that's what I respect. > > Regards, > > Dan > ?In my opinion, all of this has nothing to do with the qualities and character of the aborigines. However bad they may have been, they did not deserve to be moved at will, have their lands confiscated, and their peoples slaughtered. It has to do with what the white men did, and that was often, even consistently, morally unjustifiable? ?. ?bill w Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 13:59:54 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 07:59:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Dec 5, 2015 1:14 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > ?Japan is experiencing a dearth of babies and a big excess of the > elderly. They are trying to support increased birth rates. Where will they > live? Underground? > > In the vast tracts of untouched land. Those who believe we are running > out of room should take an honest look at Google Earth in satellite mode > zoomed out to show at least a full continent, until they realize why they > can't see most urban areas unless they're marked or zoomed in upon. > > > We really don't see much about population control lately, and to me > that's a big mistake. We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? > > I would like to see humanity some day number in the trillions, so that > those services that are hard to financially justify to mere billions may > come into service of humanity. This vision includes expanding the > resources we are able to tap (likely including extraterrestrial resources), > to support that many in comfort. > ?OK, suppose I buy all that. What will most of them, the vast majority, > do? > ?bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 16:55:47 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:55:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00dc01d12f88$bf46c900$3dd45b00$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00dc01d12f88$bf46c900$3dd45b00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:14 PM, spike wrote: > ? >> ?>> ? >> Trump inherited at least 40 >> ? ? >> million >> ? ? >> from his daddy in 1974. Since 1974 ?the S&P 500 has gone up 74 fold, if >> he had put his inheritance into a simple S&P index fund and reinvested the >> dividends today it would be worth 3.4 billion. > > > > From: > > > > http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-historical-prices/table/by-year > > > > Dec 4, 2015 > > 2,091.62 > > > > Jan 1, 1974 > > 96.11 > > > > A factor of about 22. His inherited wealth would have been about 880 > million, rather than 3 to 4 billion. Beating the stock market by a factor > of 4 over four decades is an impressive winning streak, incompatible with > the decription world-class ignoramus. > ?Trump didn't beat the stock market, picking stocks at random would have beaten Trump. As I said s ince 1974 the S&P 500 has gone up 74 fold ? not 22 fold.? If Trump chose to go into real estate and if real estate didn't increase in value as much as most other things then Trump made a business error. > ?> ?Guys whose personal wealth is primarily in the form of real estate in > the USA are exactly the kind we want in that office: ?Trump invested heavily in Trump Castle in Atlantic City; about a year after it opened Trump Castle ? filed for bankruptcy. ? And Trump didn't just invest in real estate. Trump invested in Eastern Air Lines, soon after that Eastern Air Lines ? went bankrupt. ?Trump invested in the United States Football League, but people would much rather watch the NFL; so when he couldn't beat them in the free market Trump went to the courts and claimed the NFL was a monopoly. Trump won his lawsuit and got triple damages too; the jury awarded him one dollar so with triple damages his grand total was three dollars. Very soon after that the United States Football League ? went bankrupt.? And there are plenty of billionaires in Silicon Valley that are even richer than Trump that really are self made, and although none are as loud as Donald I would much rather have one of them as president. ?> ? > they are unlikely to nuke anyone > ?Trump's ?nuanced ? solution to worldwide terrorism is ?bomb the hell out of the oil fields, ? ? I would ? ? bomb the SHIT out of 'em!" > ?> ? > and would discourage congressional overspending. > I don't know where you get that, real estate developers have no problem with government spending as long as the government dollars comes their way. Both Donald and his father Fred Trump (the source of Donald's fortune) got all sorts of government contracts and subsidies during their careers. ?> ? > Ja I am not claiming Ted Cruz is a pleasant person or that his college > roommate likes him. I am claiming that world-class ignoramus doesn?t > describe him. Ted Cruz ? ? chose ?the perfect place for a world class ?ignoramus to announce his presidential bid ?,? at ? ? Jerry Falwell's ?' Liberty "University" where they proudly declare they don't teach Evolution but instead teach ? ? ?a ? robust, Young-Earth creationist view of Earth history.? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 17:04:36 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:04:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:17 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. > That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor > of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. > > ?The exact amount Trump inherited is somewhat in dispute, it ranges from 40 million to 200 million; I chose to be conservative and use the lowest estimate. ?And the stock market went up by a factor of 74 not 20 or 25. ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 17:16:06 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:16:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?>> ? >> My proof will come with California?s high speed rail project: paying off >> various religious and native groups will become steadily more expensive as >> more track is laid. spike > > > ?> ? > Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant > guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in > the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the > broken treatises. > > ?We? I don't feel the least bit guilty because I wasn't alive back then. And I have no doubt that the history of ? American aborigines ? from 16,000 BC to 1492 AD was at least as bloody and unjust as that of the Europeans. The Noble Savage never existed. John K Clark ? > bill w > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 10:17 AM, spike wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On >>> Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan >>> *?* >>> >>> ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses >>> all. ? John K Clark >>> >>> Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a >>> self-made multi-billionaire. >>> >>> >>> >>> >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess >>> "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. >>> That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor >>> of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. >>> >>> >>> >>> I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. >>> >> >> The luck of what? Connections with those in power that one can influence >> with a quite large inherited fortune? Also, what is the use of his >> particular business acumen here? So he can take a huge fortune and make it >> bigger. Why should such a man be given any power over others? >> >> And, in this particular discussion, would you say he's a good judge of >> what direction scientific research should go? >> >> By the way, I know one person who inherited approximately $1200 from his >> parents. He's made a six figure salary for about a dozen years. Would you >> say he's on the same level of Trump? >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books via: >> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 17:33:15 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:33:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: John Clark wrote: ?We? I don't feel the least bit guilty because I wasn't alive back then. And I have no doubt that the history of ? American aborigines ? from 16,000 BC to 1492 AD was at least as bloody and unjust as that of the Europeans. The Noble Savage never existed. ------------ You are correct. They were no better than we are or than we were. I just don't see any problem with giving them a break now and then. Nothing could repay what we did, just as nothing we can do for descendants of slaves will heal the wound. I also agree that I should feel no guilt and I don't. Man's inhumanity to man: will we ever learn just how animalistic we really are at the very core of us? And maybe next time think a bit before we shoot? Maybe repeat the Golden Rule a few times? Maybe not elect those who dwell on fears and do shoot first or at least advocate it? bill w On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 11:16 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?>> ? >>> My proof will come with California?s high speed rail project: paying off >>> various religious and native groups will become steadily more expensive as >>> more track is laid. spike >> >> >> ?> ? >> Religious groups, no. But our American aborigines, yes. We have a giant >> guilt complex regarding them which is fully justified. OK, so they were in >> the stone age when we came but that doesn't justify the slaughter or the >> broken treatises. >> >> > ?We? I don't feel the least bit guilty because I wasn't alive back then. > And I have no doubt that the history of ? > American aborigines > ? from 16,000 BC to 1492 AD was at least as bloody and unjust as that of > the Europeans. The Noble Savage never existed. > > John K Clark ? > > > > > > > >> bill w >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan >> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 10:17 AM, spike wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On >>>> Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan >>>> *?* >>>> >>>> ?are ?Donald Trump, Ben Carson and Ted Cruz, world class ignoramuses >>>> all. ? John K Clark >>>> >>>> Donald Trump: graduated from Wharton school of business, became a >>>> self-made multi-billionaire. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >?If inheriting millions makes someone self-made, then I guess >>>> "self-made" is a useless term now?Dan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. >>>> That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor >>>> of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I grant there was plenty of luck involved. Lucky is good. >>>> >>> >>> The luck of what? Connections with those in power that one can influence >>> with a quite large inherited fortune? Also, what is the use of his >>> particular business acumen here? So he can take a huge fortune and make it >>> bigger. Why should such a man be given any power over others? >>> >>> And, in this particular discussion, would you say he's a good judge of >>> what direction scientific research should go? >>> >>> By the way, I know one person who inherited approximately $1200 from his >>> parents. He's made a six figure salary for about a dozen years. Would you >>> say he's on the same level of Trump? >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> Sample my Kindle books via: >>> http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 17:40:31 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:40:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: ?> ? > The corrective for this is probably returning where possible property ?Return to who? ? ?With the exception of Antarctica and Greenland every square inch of land on the planet has been fought over hundreds of times, ?and all the parties involved in those ancient conflicts are all long dead. ?> ? > They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, > especially their children, deserved that. > ?So I must pay you money because my great great great great great grandfather was unjust to your ?great great great great great grandfather? > ?> ? > Take the example of Sand Creek in Colorado > ? [...]? > > ?What's the point? All the villains and all the heros of that incident have been dead for well over a century. History is bloody and unjust, all history not just the history of people with European descent. Deal with it. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 6 17:49:03 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 09:49:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: <100632E3-EE80-405C-95E2-4F2A49B89F7D@taramayastales.com> What will the vast majority do? I don?t understand this question. You?re worried they won?t find jobs? If so... The more people there are the more jobs there will be. Not only because most of the same jobs we have now will have to scale up (more children means more teachers, more teens means more police, more adults means more entertainments, etc?) but because, as mentioned, there will be a huge number of jobs that will open up for the new industries that can only exist when our population is in the trillions rather than the millions. As a science fiction writer, I have a long list of ?future jobs??not the tech jobs, which will also exist, but jobs that no one does today because it would be a frivolous waste of resources at our present level of civilization, but would be perfectly easy to do if we had a more efficient technological and economic base. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 6, 2015, at 5:59 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I would like to see humanity some day number in the trillions, so that those services that are hard to financially justify to mere billions may come into service of humanity. This vision includes expanding the resources we are able to tap (likely including extraterrestrial resources), to support that many in comfort. > > ?OK, suppose I buy all that. What will most of them, the vast majority, do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 6 17:53:21 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 09:53:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia Message-ID: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> My kids and I just watched Home, a cute and surprisingly sophisticated SF Kids movie, in which invading yet buffoonish aliens displace the whole human population to Australia. This reminded me of the fact that there are still many places on Earth we should consider terraforming? for the value of the projects in and of themselves and because such projects that would prepare us for the much harder task of terraforming other planets or moons. One whole continent is Australia. It?s been discussed before, but an inner sea would enable Australia to support a much larger population. In a similar fashion, the re-greening of North Africa, perhaps with artificial rivers or a small sea, would also be feasible. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 18:14:28 2015 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:14:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: I am entirely in favor of your motion! Only that almost everywhere on this planet some terraforming is quite necessary. Exterminating hornets, snakes, adjust temperatures ... is mandatory, if you ask me. The majority would be horrified of course, but I don't care. On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:53 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > My kids and I just watched Home, a cute and surprisingly sophisticated SF > Kids movie, in which invading yet buffoonish aliens displace the whole > human population to Australia. > > This reminded me of the fact that there are still many places on Earth we > should consider terraforming? for the value of the projects in and of > themselves and because such projects that would prepare us for the much > harder task of terraforming other planets or moons. > > One whole continent is Australia. It?s been discussed before, but an inner > sea would enable Australia to support a much larger population. In a > similar fashion, the re-greening of North Africa, perhaps with artificial > rivers or a small sea, would also be feasible. > > Tara Maya > Blog | Twitter > | Facebook > | > Amazon > | > Goodreads > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 18:34:22 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:34:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 9:53 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > > My kids and I just watched Home, a cute and surprisingly sophisticated SF Kids movie, in which invading yet buffoonish aliens displace the whole human population to Australia. > > This reminded me of the fact that there are still many places on Earth we should consider terraforming? for the value of the projects in and of themselves and because such projects that would prepare us for the much harder task of terraforming other planets or moons. > > One whole continent is Australia. It?s been discussed before, but an inner sea would enable Australia to support a much larger population. In a similar fashion, the re-greening of North Africa, perhaps with artificial rivers or a small sea, would also be feasible. Flooding the East African Rift Valley would create an internal sea. It would also be much cheaper to carry out -- in terms of the actual flooding. (Well, IMO. Maybe I'm wrong here.) Of course, it should be studied before going there with explosives and earth movers to start the process. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 18:42:26 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:42:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 9:40 AM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> >> ?> ?The corrective for this is probably returning where possible property > > ?Return to who? ? ?With the exception of Antarctica and Greenland every square inch of land on the planet has been fought over hundreds of times, ?and all the parties involved in those ancient conflicts are all long dead. Some of the land takings are much more recent and the federal government now controls the land. That can be returned where there's a clear owner. We don't have to trace this back for a hundred generations in those cases. >> ?> ? They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, especially their children, deserved that. > > ?So I must pay you money because my great great great great great grandfather was unjust to your ?great great great great great grandfather? No. >> ?> ?Take the example of Sand Creek in Colorado? [...]? > > ?What's the point? All the villains and all the heros of that incident have been dead for well over a century. History is bloody and unjust, all history not just the history of people with European descent. Deal with it. The point is to give people back land that would've likely been theirs had the taking not taking place. I would go with federal lands here. Also, those wanting to prove a certain piece of land outside the federal ambit belonged to them would have to make a case. I agree about history in general and humanity in general, but you seem to be arguing that clear cases of theft shouldn't be resolved because there are unclear cases. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 6 18:53:30 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:53:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> Message-ID: <007801d13057$67413630$35c3a290$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 9:05 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:17 PM, spike > wrote: ?> ? Using John?s numbers, he inherited 40 million, now is about 4 billion. That?s 100-fold increase, when the stock market increased by about a factor of 20 to 25 in that same four decades. ?>?The exact amount Trump inherited is somewhat in dispute, it ranges from 40 million to 200 million; I chose to be conservative and use the lowest estimate? There you go again, always the conservative. >? ?And the stock market went up by a factor of 74 not 20 or 25. ? John K Clark? John which of these numbers is wrong? I get 22. Where did 74 come from? http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-historical-prices/table/by-year Dec 4, 2015 2,091.62 Jan 1, 1974 96.11 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 18:57:19 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:57:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <100632E3-EE80-405C-95E2-4F2A49B89F7D@taramayastales.com> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <100632E3-EE80-405C-95E2-4F2A49B89F7D@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > The more people there are the more jobs there will be. Not only because > most of the same jobs we have now will have to scale up (more children > means more teachers, more teens means more police, more adults means more > entertainments, etc?) but because, as mentioned, there will be a huge > number of jobs that will open up for the new industries that can only exist > when our population is in the trillions rather than the millions. > > As a science fiction writer, I have a long list of ?future jobs??not the > tech jobs, which will also exist, but jobs that no one does today because > it would be a frivolous waste of resources at our present level of > civilization, but would be perfectly easy to do if we had a more efficient > technological and economic base. > Well said. Also, those who doubt this is the case can look at the history of the Industrial Revolution and its timing relative to world population levels. Or look at chip fabrication economics: it costs billions of dollars to develop a generation of computer chips, but per-unit production costs are low, so if only millions were needed (a few computers per person), the chips would cost thousands of dollars each, but since we have demand for billions of chips, they cost in the tens or singles dollars each. Or look at small vs. large cities, and notice how many more services are available in the latter while there's not enough demand in the former. For instance: mass transit and cab service, a diverse array of restaurants (or for really small towns, any restaurants), water and sewage, electricity and phone lines (which the DoE and FCC respectively have been working on for decades), and specialist services of all kinds. At the most extreme (usually not found within the USA), population can get too disperse for schools and hospitals, so the people must do without. This has been a major driver of immigration from rural to urban areas, ever since substantial urban areas first existed, and has gotten more intense as areas grew populous enough to make practical more services. Consider what would happen to prescription drug prices if there was approximately a thousand times the demand for each given medicine. Any time some company jacks up the prices for a relatively low-demand pill, there's that much more incentive for someone else to develop and market a low-cost substitute, and then the jacked-up-price pill either gets sold at a reasonable price or stops getting much sales. Though, again, this will likely require tapping extraterrestrial resources. If nothing else, it might be more practical to create truly large cities in space, where there's no natural geography that limits the physical size: if your city of a million will soon be getting an influx of a hundred thousand, the default answer is just to build more "land". Imagine what today's largest cities would do if excavation to support building down, and architecture to support building up, were to become far cheaper than they are today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 19:04:05 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:04:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > This reminded me of the fact that there are still many places on Earth we > should consider terraforming? for the value of the projects in and of > themselves and because such projects that would prepare us for the much > harder task of terraforming other planets or moons. > > One whole continent is Australia. It?s been discussed before, but an inner > sea would enable Australia to support a much larger population. In a > similar fashion, the re-greening of North Africa, perhaps with artificial > rivers or a small sea, would also be feasible. > The issue is mostly political: you'd have to overcome resistance from those who insist we must keep Earth largely the way it is. Africa is perhaps easier in that regard, because the Sahara Desert formed within modern mankind's history, but see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertification#Countermeasures_and_prevention for other problems with reclaiming deserts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 6 19:05:51 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:05:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <100632E3-EE80-405C-95E2-4F2A49B89F7D@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <71900689-0F4E-4F09-9630-640F27C75E9D@taramayastales.com> It?s interesting to imagine a future (fairly far out) where planets become the rural resource providers to the urban space station cities. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 6, 2015, at 10:57 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Though, again, this will likely require tapping extraterrestrial resources. If nothing else, it might be more practical to create truly large cities in space, where there's no natural geography that limits the physical size: if your city of a million will soon be getting an influx of a hundred thousand, the default answer is just to build more "land". Imagine what today's largest cities would do if excavation to support building down, and architecture to support building up, were to become far cheaper than they are today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 6 19:06:17 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:06:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark ? ?> ? They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, especially their children, deserved that. ?So I must pay you money because my great great great great great grandfather was unjust to your ?great great great great great grandfather? John K Clark? AncestryDNA has come to our collective rescue. The test costs you 100 bucks, doesn?t hurt (you spit into a test tube, send it in.) Even the whitest among us (perhaps even Elizabeth Warren and Ward Churchill) are likely to find at least a trace of Native American in their DNA, which immediately makes us immune from guilt over what our other ancestors did or didn?t do. I have a measurable trace of African, which makes me universally immune. I can rightly say I am part NA and part African. To ask how much is an improper question. (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheheeeee?) Side note to anyone reading: I have written software to help interpret DNA results. Anyone who wants to do AncestryDNA, I have a way to systematically compare your results to other people. I have 230 people in my database so far. I can encrypt your results to keep your identity safe. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 6 19:35:18 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:35:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> Message-ID: <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> I believe all of us can trace our ancestors to Africa. ;) Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 6, 2015, at 11:06 AM, spike wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org ] On Behalf Of John Clark > ? > >> ?> ? >> They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, especially their children, deserved that. > > ?So I must pay you money because my great great great great great grandfather was unjust to your ?great great great great great grandfather? John K Clark? > > > AncestryDNA has come to our collective rescue. The test costs you 100 bucks, doesn?t hurt (you spit into a test tube, send it in.) Even the whitest among us (perhaps even Elizabeth Warren and Ward Churchill) are likely to find at least a trace of Native American in their DNA, which immediately makes us immune from guilt over what our other ancestors did or didn?t do. I have a measurable trace of African, which makes me universally immune. I can rightly say I am part NA and part African. To ask how much is an improper question. (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheheeeee?) > > Side note to anyone reading: I have written software to help interpret DNA results. Anyone who wants to do AncestryDNA, I have a way to systematically compare your results to other people. I have 230 people in my database so far. I can encrypt your results to keep your identity safe. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 19:46:13 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 13:46:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > I believe *all* of us can trace our ancestors to Africa. ;) > > ?Well, yeah, you can wink, but I think this is perfectly correct and so do lots of scientists. bill w? > > Tara Maya > Blog | Twitter > | Facebook > | > Amazon > | > Goodreads > > > > On Dec 6, 2015, at 11:06 AM, spike wrote: > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > ] *On Behalf Of *John Clark > *?* > > > ?> ? > They were wiped out by disease and conquest. Not every last one of them, > especially their children, deserved that. > > > ?So I must pay you money because my great great great great great > grandfather was unjust to your ?great great great great great grandfather? > John K Clark? > > > AncestryDNA has come to our collective rescue. The test costs you 100 > bucks, doesn?t hurt (you spit into a test tube, send it in.) Even the > whitest among us (perhaps even Elizabeth Warren and Ward Churchill) are > likely to find at least a trace of Native American in their DNA, which > immediately makes us immune from guilt over what our other ancestors did or > didn?t do. I have a measurable trace of African, which makes me > universally immune. I can rightly say I am part NA and part African. To > ask how much is an improper question. (?heeeeeeehehehehehehheheheeeee?) > > Side note to anyone reading: I have written software to help interpret DNA > results. Anyone who wants to do AncestryDNA, I have a way to > systematically compare your results to other people. I have 230 people in > my database so far. I can encrypt your results to keep your identity safe. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 6 20:32:04 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:32:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <00da01d13065$2c31daf0$849590d0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again I believe all of us can trace our ancestors to Africa. ;) Tara Maya Ja. But with these 100 dollar DNA tests, we can reach back about 8 to 10 generations (ish (I am working on a statistical model to determine the uncertainty on that (made a cool breakthrough yesterday.))) We are all Africans, but if it is recent enough to show up with one of these inexpensive tests, then you are African. If anyone gives you any trouble about it, by pointing to your blonde hair, chalky white skin and blue eyes for instance, ask them to show you their DNA results. Every real African American I know on there has at least *some* European ancestry. DNA is a fun game if you have a sense of humor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 22:36:29 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:36:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Dan TheBookMan > > > I think you're using this as an excuse. Whites, likewise, warred with each > other, including, for the US, its Civil War, which was brutal in the > extreme. > ### Wars among whites destroyed a minuscule fraction of the population, compared to the daily slaughter among Indians. We are talking about orders of magnitude differences. -------------- > > I specifically brought up the example of the Sand Creek Massacre because > that's exactly what it was: a massacre by the US military. > ### You are pointing at the straw while completely ignoring the beam. Whites, especially of West European extraction, are substantially less violent than Indians. For every massacre committed by US troops there is a dozen attacks, massacres, rapes and murders committed by Indians. -------------------- > > I'm a little shocked here. Can you imagine aliens landing on Earth and > perhaps massacring humans based on the same arguments you're making: humans > fight amongst themselves, so anything done to them is fine? And, oh, it'd > be fine as long as they didn't wipe out all humans, but left a tiny > fraction alive, which they herded into the least desirable locations -- in > order for their kind to take the best land? > ### If humans kept attacking the aliens, stupidly, well, they would deserve to be wiped out. I am not pointing to violence among Indians as an excuse to attack them. I am mentioning it as an illustration of the violent nature of their societies, which also led them attack Europeans. And it is these attacks that justified an armed response. -------------- > And this has nothing to do with whitewashing. I completely agree there > were warlike tribes and individuals. That's not an valid justification for > anything goes against all of them. It doesn't give a carte blanche on war. > ### All tribes were warlike, or else other tribes would have long since slaughtered them all. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 22:43:52 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:43:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 9:40 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > ?> ? >> The corrective for this is probably returning where possible property > > > ?Return to who? ? > > ?With the exception of Antarctica and Greenland every square inch of land > on the planet has been fought over hundreds of times, ?and all the parties > involved in those ancient conflicts are all long dead. > > > Some of the land takings are much more recent and the federal government > now controls the land. That can be returned where there's a clear owner. We > don't have to trace this back for a hundred generations in those cases. > ### I think that the government may not legitimately own land and indeed, all US government landholdings should be sold to the highest bidder. That includes spoils of war. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:06:55 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:06:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Tomaz Kristan wrote: > I am entirely in favor of your motion! Only that almost everywhere on this > planet some terraforming is quite necessary. > > Exterminating hornets, snakes, adjust temperatures ... is mandatory, if > you ask me. > > The majority would be horrified of course, but I don't care. > ### Count me in. It would be nice to use gene-drives to render harmless creatures that pose a threat to human life, whether by genetic modification or by outright destruction. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:09:15 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:09:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B71C1B0-DB77-41B5-ABA7-3D159B7BD59C@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 2:36 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 12:05 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> >> I think you're using this as an excuse. Whites, likewise, warred with each other, including, for the US, its Civil War, which was brutal in the extreme. > > ### Wars among whites destroyed a minuscule fraction of the population, compared to the daily slaughter among Indians. We are talking about orders of magnitude differences. This is true for that particular war I mentioned, but varies depending on the time and location. Some estimates place the death toll for the wars of religion in Germany at 30%, which is comparable for extreme estimates for the death rates amongst Stone Age humans in Europe. > I specifically brought up the example of the Sand Creek Massacre because that's exactly what it was: a massacre by the US military. > > ### You are pointing at the straw while completely ignoring the beam. Whites, especially of West European extraction, are substantially less violent than Indians. For every massacre committed by US troops there is a dozen attacks, massacres, rapes and murders committed by Indians. This is much more complicated, but, regardless, the massacre of one group can be justified because of incidents from yet another group. This is exactly what happened with the Sand Creek Massacre. What's more it seems the finding gold in Colorado was the major motivation for removal or extermination of the natives. (There would be the issue of deciding who owns what and whether the US military should've been involved at all. Anderson and McChesney, in the famous paper on raid vs. trade seem to show that native-White relations were more peaceful -- based on trade -- until the cavalry arrived, then became much more violent -- based on raid. Why? IIRC -- it's been a while -- this is because violence paid off for Whites when they could simply push The natives out of areas the Whites coveted. If they're right here, one can imagine an alternative history where natives and Whites continued to trade, evolving a market order outside of federal purview.) >> I'm a little shocked here. Can you imagine aliens landing on Earth and perhaps massacring humans based on the same arguments you're making: humans fight amongst themselves, so anything done to them is fine? And, oh, it'd be fine as long as they didn't wipe out all humans, but left a tiny fraction alive, which they herded into the least desirable locations -- in order for their kind to take the best land? > > ### If humans kept attacking the aliens, stupidly, well, they would deserve to be wiped out. What your saying is humans should just accept whatever changing terms are offered or else they're justifying whatever actions a greater force deems expedient. (Of course, there's the issue of whether it's wise to continue a conflict with a superior force. The American Indian case is complicated here, too, because the "civilized tribes" did attempt to work within the courts and acceded to many changing demands.) > I am not pointing to violence among Indians as an excuse to attack them. I am mentioning it as an illustration of the violent nature of their societies, which also led them attack Europeans. And it is these attacks that justified an armed response. > -------------- >> And this has nothing to do with whitewashing. I completely agree there were warlike tribes and individuals. That's not an valid justification for anything goes against all of them. It doesn't give a carte blanche on war. > > ### All tribes were warlike, or else other tribes would have long since slaughtered them all. I pointed to the Sand Creek Massacre in particular as an example of an unprovoked attack by the US military against natives who were not only not involved in attacks against Whites, but also did not offer initial resistance. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:13:04 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:13:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 8:59 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 8:21 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Dec 5, 2015 1:14 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" >> wrote: >> > ?Japan is experiencing a dearth of babies and a big excess of the >> elderly. They are trying to support increased birth rates. Where will they >> live? Underground? >> >> In the vast tracts of untouched land. Those who believe we are running >> out of room should take an honest look at Google Earth in satellite mode >> zoomed out to show at least a full continent, until they realize why they >> can't see most urban areas unless they're marked or zoomed in upon. >> >> > We really don't see much about population control lately, and to me >> that's a big mistake. We will eventually have to do it. Why wait? >> >> I would like to see humanity some day number in the trillions, so that >> those services that are hard to financially justify to mere billions may >> come into service of humanity. This vision includes expanding the >> resources we are able to tap (likely including extraterrestrial resources), >> to support that many in comfort. >> ?OK, suppose I buy all that. What will most of them, the vast majority, >> do? >> > ### Watch TV? Invent marvellous new stuff? Build nifty building? Just live and let live? There are limits to reasonable population growth, but we are still very far from them. I am more concerned with the quality, not the quantity of people. We need on average better humans, no matter if the total number is less or more than today. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:14:59 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:14:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 2:43 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 9:40 AM, John Clark wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 7:28 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>>> >>>> ?> ?The corrective for this is probably returning where possible property >>> >>> ?Return to who? ? ?With the exception of Antarctica and Greenland every square inch of land on the planet has been fought over hundreds of times, ?and all the parties involved in those ancient conflicts are all long dead. >> >> Some of the land takings are much more recent and the federal government now controls the land. That can be returned where there's a clear owner. We don't have to trace this back for a hundred generations in those cases. > > ### I think that the government may not legitimately own land and indeed, all US government landholdings should be sold to the highest bidder. That includes spoils of war. I agree that government may not legitimately hold land, though I would, where practicable, return land to its former owners (where these can be found) rather than sell it off. Also, since government can't justly own it, then it can't really sell it. The only things that can be justly done here in my opinion is returning to former owners, offering as compensation to victims (of government), or allowing land to go back into an unowned state ready for someone to justly appropriate. (I would also stipulate that those in or working for the government be barred from obtaining any of this land because they are actually party to the takings. To allow them to make claims would be akin to allowing robbers to make claims over the loot -- in cases where the original owners of the loot can't be found.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:19:30 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:19:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:47 PM, spike wrote: > > Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a > nation > lives on borrowed money for a long time. Eventually the bills come due. I > fear the outcome will range somewhere between extremely unpleasant to > horrifying. ### I am just as appalled by deficit spending as you are but I think we will actually weasel out of trouble thanks to AI and robotics. Economic productivity will keep increasing so fast that all the liabilities of the US government will be met by taxing the same slice of a much bigger pie. At least I hope so. In fifteen years I will be eligible for social security... but I am making preparations to do without, just in case. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:29:54 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:29:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > I agree that government may not legitimately hold land, though I would, > where practicable, return land to its former owners (where these can be > found) rather than sell it off. > > Also, since government can't justly own it, then it can't really sell it. > The only things that can be justly done here in my opinion is returning to > former owners, offering as compensation to victims (of government), or > allowing land to go back into an unowned state ready for someone to justly > appropriate. (I would also stipulate that those in or working for the > government be barred from obtaining any of this land because they are > actually party to the takings. To allow them to make claims would be akin > to allowing robbers to make claims over the loot -- in cases where the > original owners of the loot can't be found.) > ### Proceeds from sales could be distributed directly and outside of the budget to all citizens. Reverting to an unowned state is not a good idea, since we don't have a good system of just appropriation on Earth. And yes, government employees, grantees, wards of the government, welfare recipients, and generally anybody receiving a substantial fraction of their income from taxes, and their dependents should not be able to purchase government land, or vote in elections. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:31:18 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:31:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: <42356C9E-6CBF-452F-B8EE-317C54587FC2@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 3:19 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:47 PM, spike wrote: >> Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a nation >> lives on borrowed money for a long time. Eventually the bills come due. I >> fear the outcome will range somewhere between extremely unpleasant to >> horrifying. > > ### I am just as appalled by deficit spending as you are but I think we will actually weasel out of trouble thanks to AI and robotics. Economic productivity will keep increasing so fast that all the liabilities of the US government will be met by taxing the same slice of a much bigger pie. > > At least I hope so. In fifteen years I will be eligible for social security... but I am making preparations to do without, just in case. I hope everyone here is making similar preparations too. Well, those who are in a position to -- which I believe is probably most here. By the way, the horror scenario might not be so bad here. Were the government to default, life would go on. Were it to collapse, likewise. My guess is the government will muddle through, and most people will get used to it. Think of how few protest about be scanned or probe at the airport now. That's the new normal, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:31:31 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 23:31:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On 6 December 2015 at 23:19, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### I am just as appalled by deficit spending as you are but I think we will > actually weasel out of trouble thanks to AI and robotics. Economic > productivity will keep increasing so fast that all the liabilities of the US > government will be met by taxing the same slice of a much bigger pie. > > At least I hope so. In fifteen years I will be eligible for social > security... but I am making preparations to do without, just in case. > Wise move. In 15 years there may well not be enough money to pay social security, or perhaps to only pay a greatly reduced rate. The other thing that is happening is that people living longer means governments are postponing the pension age. And as money begins to run out that will happen quicker. At present AI and robotics means greater unemployment and more people moving to low-pay jobs, like waiters and bar staff. So less for government to tax. Let's hope for an AI Singularity to solve all the problems! BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:36:19 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:36:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <0AC079CC-51C4-45CE-A3DD-36A8125D8336@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 3:06 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Tomaz Kristan wrote: >> I am entirely in favor of your motion! Only that almost everywhere on this planet some terraforming is quite necessary. >> >> Exterminating hornets, snakes, adjust temperatures ... is mandatory, if you ask me. >> >> The majority would be horrified of course, but I don't care. > > ### Count me in. It would be nice to use gene-drives to render harmless creatures that pose a threat to human life, whether by genetic modification or by outright destruction. The fear would be accidentally eliminating something essential to the biosphere and human existence, no? For instance, can a gene drive used to get rid of a malarial spreading mosquito be prevented from spreading to other mosquitos? (I'm also wondering about good old Darwinian evolution working around the mechanism in this particular example. But, of course, that might be easier to deal with once you have the tools and knowledge.) I'm not saying I share these concerns. Others do, though. And they might have to be persuaded. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:43:56 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:43:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 3:29 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:14 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> >> I agree that government may not legitimately hold land, though I would, where practicable, return land to its former owners (where these can be found) rather than sell it off. >> >> Also, since government can't justly own it, then it can't really sell it. The only things that can be justly done here in my opinion is returning to former owners, offering as compensation to victims (of government), or allowing land to go back into an unowned state ready for someone to justly appropriate. (I would also stipulate that those in or working for the government be barred from obtaining any of this land because they are actually party to the takings. To allow them to make claims would be akin to allowing robbers to make claims over the loot -- in cases where the original owners of the loot can't be found.) > > ### Proceeds from sales could be distributed directly and outside of the budget to all citizens. Why all? Why not to those who were appropriated from, citizen or not? For instance, if the government of Ruritania took my stuff, even though I'm not, have never been, and do not plan to be a citizen of Ruritania, all else being equal, I should get my stuff back (or something equivalent). It would be just if said government took my stuff, then sold it off and gave the proceeds to its citizens. > Reverting to an unowned state is not a good idea, since we don't have a good system of just appropriation on Earth. Well, part of the thing would be to replace current systems with better ones, no? > And yes, government employees, grantees, wards of the government, welfare recipients, and generally anybody receiving a substantial fraction of their income from taxes, and their dependents should not be able to purchase government land, or vote in elections. I don't believe anyone should be voting in elections -- save maybe in self-defense. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:46:27 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:46:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <438252E6-3C06-49E7-A85D-A312944C30FC@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 11:35 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > > I believe all of us can trace our ancestors to Africa. ;) I keep forgetting most of you are not felids. ;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Dec 6 23:51:47 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:51:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00da01d13065$2c31daf0$849590d0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <007d01d13059$30442550$90cc6ff0$@att.net> <130BD214-1B58-4859-86C4-C42056BA006B@taramayastales.com> <00da01d13065$2c31daf0$849590d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <1D096A77-A9C3-4789-B945-F940F9CC76AB@taramayastales.com> In all seriousness, quite true. I have about 3% Native American DNA, but unfortunately, the test I took doesn?t give me any more refinement than that?. I would love to know what tribe, as that would give me some clue when it entered the tree. No one of the generation/s when it must of occurred would own up it in the historical record. So, somebody was ?passing? as something other than Native American back in the day. I sure would like to know who! I wonder what they would think if they knew that to their descendants it would be a source of pride not shame? And what a pity they felt they had to lie or hide. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 6, 2015, at 12:32 PM, spike wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org ] On Behalf Of Tara Maya > Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again > > I believe all of us can trace our ancestors to Africa. ;) > > > Tara Maya > > > > Ja. But with these 100 dollar DNA tests, we can reach back about 8 to 10 generations (ish (I am working on a statistical model to determine the uncertainty on that (made a cool breakthrough yesterday.))) > > We are all Africans, but if it is recent enough to show up with one of these inexpensive tests, then you are African. If anyone gives you any trouble about it, by pointing to your blonde hair, chalky white skin and blue eyes for instance, ask them to show you their DNA results. Every real African American I know on there has at least *some* European ancestry. > > DNA is a fun game if you have a sense of humor. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 23:58:27 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:58:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: <0AC079CC-51C4-45CE-A3DD-36A8125D8336@gmail.com> References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> <0AC079CC-51C4-45CE-A3DD-36A8125D8336@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > > The fear would be accidentally eliminating something essential to the > biosphere and human existence, no? For instance, can a gene drive used to > get rid of a malarial spreading mosquito be prevented from spreading to > other mosquitos? (I'm also wondering about good old Darwinian evolution > working around the mechanism in this particular example. But, of course, > that might be easier to deal with once you have the tools and knowledge.) > ### You can design a reverse gene drive to render critters immune to a released version. A gene drive generally is transferred only to offspring, so it should not find its way to other species, unless the species are capable of interbreeding and producing viable offspring. This may be occasionally of concern, for example if you try to use a gene drive to eliminate African bees and end up wiping out European bees. Evolution would of course find ways of incapacitating gene drives but I think that the arms race between CRISPR designers and critters would be mostly won by designers. You should be able to quickly design a counter to conceivable evolved anti-CRISPR mechanisms. If a critter has a Dicer mutation that directs it towards the RNA guides used by CRISPR, you just disable Dicer. Etc. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 00:10:00 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:10:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > > Why all? Why not to those who were appropriated from, citizen or not? For > instance, if the government of Ruritania took my stuff, even though I'm > not, have never been, and do not plan to be a citizen of Ruritania, all > else being equal, I should get my stuff back (or something equivalent). It > would be just if said government took my stuff, then sold it off and gave > the proceeds to its citizens. > ### If you are a victim of an illegitimate taking, yes, you should get your stuff back but I don't think you could find many such persons when it comes to de-nationalizing US federal land. The victims are dead, their descendants do not have a clear title, trying to fix it would be a costly mess. ------------------- > > I don't believe anyone should be voting in elections -- save maybe in > self-defense. > ### Indeed :) Still, disenfranchisement of government employees would be a good start towards the abolition of democracy. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Dec 6 03:06:20 2015 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 19:06:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Religious Idiocy Triumphs OverScience Yet Again Message-ID: It is quite telling, in my experience, that the ultimate expression of all theistic religion has been wholly political in nature. Whether it be by the social exclusion and economic disenfranchisement of non-believers, the maintenance of a privileged priesthood, or the wholesale slaughter of infidels, gods have always been used to justify who gets what. Yet no true-believer ever stops to question the blaring irony that supposedly all-powerful divine beings are so without means, that they require regular offerings. And so helplessly inept as to require hordes of mortal servants to carry out their desires. As if Allah could not personally smite the infidel or a sentient volcano could not divest itself of unwanted construction easier than a dog could shake off water. "We believe the irrational so all your base is belong to us." Stuart LaForge Sent from my phone. From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 01:06:50 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:06:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 4:10 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:43 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> >> Why all? Why not to those who were appropriated from, citizen or not? For instance, if the government of Ruritania took my stuff, even though I'm not, have never been, and do not plan to be a citizen of Ruritania, all else being equal, I should get my stuff back (or something equivalent). It would be just if said government took my stuff, then sold it off and gave the proceeds to its citizens. > > ### If you are a victim of an illegitimate taking, yes, you should get your stuff back but I don't think you could find many such persons when it comes to de-nationalizing US federal land. The victims are dead, their descendants do not have a clear title, trying to fix it would be a costly mess. This is why, elsewhere, I stipulate where this is practicable. In many cases, I agree, one simply can't figure this out. >> I don't believe anyone should be voting in elections -- save maybe in self-defense. > > ### Indeed :) > > Still, disenfranchisement of government employees would be a good start towards the abolition of democracy. It's not so much the abolition of democracy, but of the state. After all, you wouldn't want, I trust, to abolish democracy but leave the state in place -- say, as an autocracy or an oligarchy. And, no, I don't agree with someone like Hoppe on this. Democracy simpliciter might be worse than the stateless system I would prefer, but current democracy might be better than many other likely systems to arise in its wake. (I certainly wouldn't want the US to evolve into a praetorian guard state, which might be one likely outcome, especially given the concentration of executive power and the increasing reliance on police and military power over the last few years.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 01:18:35 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:18:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Australia In-Reply-To: References: <9CE8ECF3-C93C-4BC5-8207-BD532E791BBA@taramayastales.com> <0AC079CC-51C4-45CE-A3DD-36A8125D8336@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 3:58 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> >> The fear would be accidentally eliminating something essential to the biosphere and human existence, no? For instance, can a gene drive used to get rid of a malarial spreading mosquito be prevented from spreading to other mosquitos? (I'm also wondering about good old Darwinian evolution working around the mechanism in this particular example. But, of course, that might be easier to deal with once you have the tools and knowledge.) > > ### You can design a reverse gene drive to render critters immune to a released version. > > A gene drive generally is transferred only to offspring, so it should not find its way to other species, unless the species are capable of interbreeding and producing viable offspring. This may be occasionally of concern, for example if you try to use a gene drive to eliminate African bees and end up wiping out European bees. > > Evolution would of course find ways of incapacitating gene drives but I think that the arms race between CRISPR designers and critters would be mostly won by designers. You should be able to quickly design a counter to conceivable evolved anti-CRISPR mechanisms. If a critter has a Dicer mutation that directs it towards the RNA guides used by CRISPR, you just disable Dicer. Etc. Much of this would depend on time sensitivity too. The designers or the team needs to think about this to avoid something happening so quickly that it can't effectively be undone or that the cost of undoing is extremely high. I'm not urging a precautionary approach here -- just not want that ignores all risks as if the technology is self-fixing because, well, we can out a rival gene drive in place. You wouldn't want to do this willy nilly only to find that, say, there's unknown contacts or that the species in question has an unknown ecological relationship that's important. Of course, I don't believe this is insurmountable. With the Darwinian stuff, I was thinking more of microbes. Use a gene alteration to make vector X immune to pathogen Y and mutant Y' might find a way around this. I wasn't thinking of vector X' evolving to spread Y. In general, pathogens evolve at a faster rate than their vectors, no? That doesn't mean don't do it. Just be aware of the possibility and maybe try to figure out -- maybe via lab or field tests -- how likely this scenario is. (My guess -- and this is pure speculation by my feeble fevered brain -- malaria probably doesn't have a big risk of this, but maybe Ebola does.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 7 01:25:46 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:25:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: <00f801d1308e$34517d20$9cf47760$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 3:20 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:47 PM, spike > wrote: Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a nation lives on borrowed money for a long time. Eventually the bills come due. I fear the outcome will range somewhere between extremely unpleasant to horrifying. ### I am just as appalled by deficit spending as you are but I think we will actually weasel out of trouble thanks to AI and robotics. Economic productivity will keep increasing so fast that all the liabilities of the US government will be met by taxing the same slice of a much bigger pie. At least I hope so. In fifteen years I will be eligible for social security... but I am making preparations to do without, just in case. Rafa? OK Rafal, I know you are making preparations to do without, so you and plenty of people will be OK. But plenty of people will not. Then what? Perhaps someone here can enlighten me, but I have long wondered about those silly zombie apocalypse exercises we keep hearing the US military does. We know they do exercises to train for every scenario, so what?s up with the zombie apocalypse? Perhaps they are training for what happens if there is a nationwide power outage or some kind of civil unrest, and soon you have hordes of starving people, just wandering around looking for some means of staying alive? Could that be something the military would train to handle? I don?t see why not; it has already happened. Mikhail Gorbachev writes in his memoirs about the communists taking over and forming the Soviet Union. In those days, the government handed the farmers a quota. If the fields produced insufficient amounts of crops, the government would come in and take whatever they estimated was their fraction. If the family had nothing left, oh well, so sorry. They starved. Gorby writes of seeing starving people. He saw a man collapse and freeze to death near his home. No one even retrieved his frozen corpse for three days. There may be Europeans here whose families have seen Real Trouble, who can elaborate. OK, I digress. What happens when Social Security becomes insolvent, and can?t pay those who do not have any alternative means? Do we get the zombie apocalypse? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 02:47:06 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:47:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <00f801d1308e$34517d20$9cf47760$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <00f801d1308e$34517d20$9cf47760$@att.net> Message-ID: <18DD515A-F5C4-4D64-A68D-99E4AF2341DC@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 5:25 PM, spike wrote: > OK Rafal, I know you are making preparations to do without, so you and plenty of people will be OK. But plenty of people will not. Then what? > > Perhaps someone here can enlighten me, but I have long wondered about those silly zombie apocalypse exercises we keep hearing the US military does. We know they do exercises to train for every scenario, so what?s up with the zombie apocalypse? Recall the last power outage where the unwashed masses ran amok and killed off millions of people? Me neither. > Perhaps they are training for what happens if there is a nationwide power outage or some kind of civil unrest, and soon you have hordes of starving people, just wandering around looking for some means of staying alive? Depends on what your goal is here. If you're only concerned about your safety and well being, then things are quite simple. But if you do care about those starving folks, it's an almost trivial matter to feed and clothe them and give them shelter. It's mainly the governments that get in the way here, preventing mutual aid (which is NOT charity) and the like. Simply allow these cooperative interactions and most people help themselves and others. > Could that be something the military would train to handle? I don?t see why not; it has already happened. Mikhail Gorbachev writes in his memoirs about the communists taking over and forming the Soviet Union. In those days, the government handed the farmers a quota. If the fields produced insufficient amounts of crops, the government would come in and take whatever they estimated was their fraction. If the family had nothing left, oh well, so sorry. They starved. The Soviet Union was in far worse shape then than the US is now. Not only does the US have a better over economy, it actually over-produces food. > > Gorby writes of seeing starving people. He saw a man collapse and freeze to death near his home. No one even retrieved his frozen corpse for three days. > > There may be Europeans here whose families have seen Real Trouble, who can elaborate. > > OK, I digress. What happens when Social Security becomes insolvent, and can?t pay those who do not have any alternative means? > > Do we get the zombie apocalypse? Do you see these folks, mainly victims of generations of bad social policy, as zombies? I don't. I also think it'd be far easier to resolve this problem non-violently than to keep the current system going, but I don't see collapse as all that likely anyhow. Yes, it makes for fun fantasy scenarios -- like gray goo or SkyNet does for toys we want to play with -- but the real world system is likely to just muddle through, IMO. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 7 04:29:28 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:29:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <18DD515A-F5C4-4D64-A68D-99E4AF2341DC@gmail.com> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <00f801d1308e$34517d20$9cf47760$@att.net> <18DD515A-F5C4-4D64-A68D-99E4AF2341DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015501d130a7$dcf2daf0$96d890d0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? >?Recall the last power outage where the unwashed masses ran amok and killed off millions of people? Me neither? The one that was nationwide? Me neither. >>?Perhaps they are training for what happens if there is a nationwide power outage or some kind of civil unrest, and soon you have hordes of starving people, just wandering around looking for some means of staying alive? >?Depends on what your goal is here. If you're only concerned about your safety and well being, then things are quite simple. But if you do care about those starving folks, it's an almost trivial matter to feed and clothe them and give them shelter? Trivial matter? When we can?t move food? How long will it take to devour all the food available in every major city? I would think about ten days would do it. >>? Mikhail Gorbachev writes in his memoirs about the communists taking over and forming the Soviet Union?They starved. >?The Soviet Union was in far worse shape then than the US is now. Not only does the US have a better over economy, it actually over-produces food? Sure but what if we cannot process it or move it to the population centers? >>?zombie apocalypse? >?Do you see these folks, mainly victims of generations of bad social policy, as zombies? I don't? Not generations of bad social policy, I had in mind victims of an EM pulse which took down our communications and power infrastructure. Then the zombie hordes would be seen within a couple weeks. It is not at all clear to me how the system could be restarted effectively. >? I don't see collapse as all that likely anyhow? I hope you are right. >? -- but the real world system is likely to just muddle through, IMO. Regards, Dan Hope so. This might be one of those black swan scenarios worth pondering. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 05:26:15 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 21:26:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <015501d130a7$dcf2daf0$96d890d0$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> <00f801d1308e$34517d20$9cf47760$@att.net> <18DD515A-F5C4-4D64-A68D-99E4AF2341DC@gmail.com> <015501d130a7$dcf2daf0$96d890d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <3F7B4956-37A6-4584-B5DA-627FD7B20529@gmail.com> On Dec 6, 2558 BE, at 8:29 PM, spike wrote: > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan > >>?Perhaps they are training for what happens if there is a nationwide power outage or some kind of civil unrest, and soon you have hordes of starving people, just wandering around looking for some means of staying alive? > > >?Depends on what your goal is here. If you're only concerned about your safety and well being, then things are quite simple. But if you do care about those starving folks, it's an almost trivial matter to feed and clothe them and give them shelter? > > Trivial matter? When we can?t move food? How long will it take to devour all the food available in every major city? I would think about ten days would do it. The US is not ten days away from starvation. Just a matter of moving stuff around. Trivial as long government does shut down access to the stuff. Recall, too, now government destroys or stocks up food surpluses -- instead of letting the prices fall. > >>? Mikhail Gorbachev writes in his memoirs about the communists taking over and forming the Soviet Union?They starved. > > >?The Soviet Union was in far worse shape then than the US is now. Not only does the US have a better over economy, it actually over-produces food? > > Sure but what if we cannot process it or move it to the population centers? The allow people to migrate to the food. Yes, I know this goes against the nationalist ideal of keeping people from roaming about. > >>?zombie apocalypse? > >?Do you see these folks, mainly victims of generations of bad social policy, as zombies? I don't? > > Not generations of bad social policy, I had in mind victims of an EM pulse which took down our communications and power infrastructure. Then the zombie hordes would be seen within a couple weeks. It is not at all clear to me how the system could be restarted effectively. The bad social policy is removing mutual aid and regulating or prohibiting voluntary interactions. My point here is if we start undoing the bad policy now -- in particular, doing countereconomic stuff -- then the resulting society will be less fragile than what we have now. (Though now, despite fascist economic policies, things aren't that bad.) > >? I don't see collapse as all that likely anyhow? > > I hope you are right. > > >? -- but the real world system is likely to just muddle through, IMO. Regards, Dan > > Hope so. This might be one of those black swan scenarios worth pondering. Well, if you're truly worried about that, then you should be against the current system -- the one that centralizes control and tend to shield the elites from their errors with bailouts and regulations making black swans far more likely. Smooth seas don't make for skilled sailors, you know? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 7 05:43:21 2015 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 05:43:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? References: <2009450667.16308579.1449467001967.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2009450667.16308579.1449467001967.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Actually we did have a nation-wide power outage in 1859. Google "carrington event" for details. Not so much a black swan in my opinion. More like an event bound to happen sooner or later. Running zombie apocalypse scenarios aren't going help the military protect the elite in such a situation either because the military is almost as brittle as the rest of society. Sure their emp-hardened high tech jet fighters might still be opperational but their fuel trucks and squad radios? Not so much. Stuart LaForge -------------------------------------------- On Sun, 12/6/15, spike wrote: Subject: Re: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? To: "'ExI chat list'" Date: Sunday, December 6, 2015, 8:29 PM From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? >?Recall the last power outage where the unwashed masses ran amok and killed off millions of people? Me neither? The one that was nationwide?? Me neither.? >>?Perhaps they are training for what happens if there is a nationwide power outage or some kind of civil unrest, and soon you have hordes of starving people, just wandering around looking for some means of staying alive?? >?Depends on what your goal is here. If you're only concerned about your safety and well being, then things are quite simple. But if you do care about those starving folks, it's an almost trivial matter to feed and clothe them and give them shelter? Trivial matter?? When we can?t move food?? How long will it take to devour all the food available in every major city?? I would think about ten days would do it. >>?? Mikhail Gorbachev writes in his memoirs about the communists taking over and forming the Soviet Union?They starved. >?The Soviet Union was in far worse shape then than the US is now. Not only does the US have a better over economy, it actually over-produces food? Sure but what if we cannot process it or move it to the population centers? >>?zombie apocalypse? >?Do you see these folks, mainly victims of generations of bad social policy, as zombies? I don't? Not generations of bad social policy, I had in mind victims of an EM pulse which took down our communications and power infrastructure.? Then the zombie hordes would be seen within a couple weeks.? It is not at all clear to me how the system could be restarted effectively. >? I don't see collapse as all that likely anyhow? I hope you are right. >? -- but the real world system is likely to just muddle through, IMO. Regards, Dan Hope so.? This might be one of those black swan scenarios worth pondering. spike -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 08:23:17 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 00:23:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 3:31 PM, BillK wrote: > Let's hope for an AI Singularity to solve all the problems! Better idea: let's be the ones who make it happen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:01:46 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 13:01:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: The point is to give people back land that would've likely been theirs had > the taking not taking place. > ?I can't, they're dead.? > ?> ? > you seem to be arguing that clear cases of theft shouldn't be resolved > ?If both the thief and the victim have been dead for a century the injustice can never be resolved. And I certainly think that the imbecilic religious beliefs of native Hawaiians, or the religious beliefs of anyone, should not prevent the construction of something as magnificent as the Thirty Meter Telescope! Do you? ? ? John K Clark? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:38:44 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:38:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <503FB588-261E-4C3C-A15A-D7335C6E95C4@gmail.com> On Dec 7, 2558 BE, at 10:01 AM, John Clark wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> > >> The point is to give people back land that would've likely been theirs had the taking not taking place. > > ?I can't, they're dead.? Where practicable, as I wrote earlier. >> ?> ?you seem to be arguing that clear cases of theft shouldn't be resolved > > ?If both the thief and the victim have been dead for a century the injustice can never be resolved. Not necessarily. That depend on if there were heirs. See my earlier comments on this too. I agree that one can't undo all the wrongs committed. > And I certainly think that the imbecilic religious beliefs of native Hawaiians, or the religious beliefs of anyone, should not prevent the construction of something as magnificent as the Thirty Meter Telescope! Do you? I specifically mentioned my stand on this early in the thread. Before you scold others, it might help if you actually read what they stated. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Dec 7 18:59:32 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 18:59:32 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Tara Maya wrote: "It's interesting to imagine a future (fairly far out) where planets become the rural resource providers to the urban space station cities" I can agree that planets could well provide a lot of our resources in the longer-term future, but 'rural' is hardly the word I'd use to describe planetary-scale strip-mines. And in any case, they'd only last so long until you'd devoured them right down to, and including, the core. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Mon Dec 7 19:14:36 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 19:14:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5665DA9C.30301@yahoo.com> Tara Maya wrote: "In all seriousness, quite true. I have about 3% Native American DNA, but unfortunately, the test I took doesn't give me any more refinement than that. I would love to know what tribe, as that would give me some clue when it entered the tree. No one of the generation/s when it must of occurred would own up it in the historical record. So, somebody was passing as something other than Native American back in the day. I sure would like to know who! I wonder what they would think if they knew that to their descendants it would be a source of pride not shame? And what a pity they felt they had to lie or hide" Um, yeah, that's not the only way (or even the most likely way) it could happen, Tara. Think about it (or ask Spike). Ben Zaiboc From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Dec 7 19:32:05 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:32:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: As long as the planet didn?t belong to ?everyone? or to ?no one? (creating a tragedy of the commons), we would find ways to renew the resources we used. We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. Factories would be off-world, so pollution could be avoided. And human cities would be off-world, leaving only tourists and pilgrims to enjoy large wilderness preserves interspersed with the farms. Hence, rural, even wild, would describe the condition of such a planet. Why, yes. I am an optimist. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 7, 2015, at 10:59 AM, Ben wrote: > > Tara Maya wrote: > > "It's interesting to imagine a future (fairly far out) where planets become the rural resource providers to the urban space station cities" > > I can agree that planets could well provide a lot of our resources in the longer-term future, but 'rural' is hardly the word I'd use to describe planetary-scale strip-mines. And in any case, they'd only last so long until you'd devoured them right down to, and including, the core. > > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Dec 7 19:34:25 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:34:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <5665DA9C.30301@yahoo.com> References: <5665DA9C.30301@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B9B1C2E-072B-466F-A412-3EFE11C471D3@taramayastales.com> Implying?? My innocent little mind fails to grasp how it could have happened. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:14 AM, Ben wrote: > > Tara Maya wrote: > > "In all seriousness, quite true. I have about 3% Native American DNA, but unfortunately, the test I took doesn't give me any more refinement than that. I would love to know what tribe, as that would give me some clue when it entered the tree. No one of the generation/s when it must of occurred would own up it in the historical record. So, somebody was passing as something other than Native American back in the day. I sure would like to know who! I wonder what they would think if they knew that to their descendants it would be a source of pride not shame? And what a pity they felt they had to lie or hide" > > Um, yeah, that's not the only way (or even the most likely way) it could happen, Tara. Think about it (or ask Spike). > > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 7 20:05:20 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 12:05:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <7B9B1C2E-072B-466F-A412-3EFE11C471D3@taramayastales.com> References: <5665DA9C.30301@yahoo.com> <7B9B1C2E-072B-466F-A412-3EFE11C471D3@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <002601d1312a$9ae98e00$d0bcaa00$@att.net> >>... Um, yeah, that's not the only way (or even the most likely way) it could happen, Tara. Think about it (or ask Spike). > > Ben Zaiboc -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:34 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >...Implying?? >...My innocent little mind fails to grasp how it could have happened. >...Tara Maya Tara one of your ancestors could have been a wartime rape victim. They might not have any description of the perp, if for instance there were several of them, or the victim was unconscious at the time, or blindfolded, or if it was dark, etc. The way it would come out is that you would have several cousins on your list with an ancestry utterly unexplainable, tracing to regions of the globe no one ever heard of. As for Native American, stand by on that. AncestryDNA is constantly refining that. There was a Cherokee war chief in the 1700s who was said to have had several hundred children (that sounds doubtful) and some partially reliable rumor has it that he was part European. That is recent enough that his descendants would show up as cousins to the descendants of whoever was that guy's grandfather. There are over a million proles in AncestryDNA now, and it is growing at than 1% per week. It's hard to say what all we will discover. spike From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:27:20 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 15:27:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <002601d1312a$9ae98e00$d0bcaa00$@att.net> References: <5665DA9C.30301@yahoo.com> <7B9B1C2E-072B-466F-A412-3EFE11C471D3@taramayastales.com> <002601d1312a$9ae98e00$d0bcaa00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:05 PM, spike wrote: > > There are over a million proles in AncestryDNA now, and it is growing at > than 1% per week. It's hard to say what all we will discover. AncestryDNA seems like a subset of 23andme. Any way to correlate the two? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:28:02 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 12:28:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Dec 7, 2015 11:33 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: > We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. That depends on how cheaply greenhouses on non-planetside colonies can be set up. Farming on Earth benefits a lot from vast areas of farmable lands having already been set up for free - so far as human effort is concerned - but the price is wildly varying climate and soil conditions. Ask any farmer what they would give to be able to control the weather on their farm, timing the storms to the minute and setting the temperature to within a tenth of a degree Celsius, things that would be trivial (so long as they don't use more power and water than available) in an orbital greenhouse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:52:43 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 12:52:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Farming, in space, on land, and in the sea/was Re: Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Dec 7, 2015 11:33 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: > > We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in > space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. > > That depends on how cheaply greenhouses on non-planetside colonies can be > set up. > I imagine there'd be a huge initial investment. The thing to ask is how soon -- if ever -- it would be profitable afterward. I'm optimistic it would pay off in a matter of decades, but that's just me being optimistic. Don't have any numbers or analysis to back up my hunch here. > Farming on Earth benefits a lot from vast areas of farmable lands having > already been set up for free - so far as human effort is concerned - but > the price is wildly varying climate and soil conditions. Ask any farmer > what they would give to be able to control the weather on their farm, > timing the storms to the minute and setting the temperature to within a > tenth of a degree Celsius, things that would be trivial (so long as they > don't use more power and water than available) in an orbital greenhouse. > I think there are vast inefficiencies now in agriculture, especially because of policies regarding farming and land use. In the US, this amounts to farming areas that probably wouldn't be farmed, keeping prices high (under the rubric of stabilization), and exporting surplus (often in a way that disrupts markets elsewhere, especially in Africa). I'm not saying eliminating all this would turn farming into a paragon of efficiency, shaking out all problems. But it would help much and give a clearer idea of the costs farming on Earth versus in space. By the way, kind of tangential, but have you read about sea vegetables? That might actually a better way to get food than land farming -- for those who can stand kelp and seaweed. (I don't much like the stuff, but the taste can be hidden.:) Anyhow, here's a popular level article about it: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/11/02/a-new-leaf Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Dec 7 21:26:13 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 13:26:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] dna test, was: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: <004001d13135$e720f6e0$b562e4a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 12:27 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:05 PM, spike > wrote: There are over a million proles in AncestryDNA now, and it is growing at than 1% per week. It's hard to say what all we will discover. AncestryDNA seems like a subset of 23andme. Any way to correlate the two? -Dave Dave they are similar, but they have their specialties. I have done both. 23andMe is better if you are doing the test for medical purposes. They try to correlate shared segments with shared maladies. I think the world of Anne Wojcecki and her team. They settled up with the FDA for an undisclosed bribe or campaign contribution, and now they are back in business but now the tests cost 200 bucks instead of the 100 they were before when I did it. Ponder the previous comment in your spare time please. If you are in it for genealogy, then AncestryDNA is better and it only costs 100 bucks with occasional special promotions for 80, and one for 70 that expired over Thanksgiving. I have bought about a dozen of these kits for relatives and now have a pile of people who have shared with me their cousin lists. It?s fun. Don?t do it if you suspect you might have children you don?t know about. Or go ahead, if you want them to find you (I have had two relatives in that situation, and both were found by their long-lost offspring.) There is a third choice, Family Tree DNA but I know little about that company. Regarding your question is there any way to correlate the two: yes. There is a service called DNAgedcom, but I haven?t been in that long enough to know the details. It is a new service that allows you to download your AncestryDNA or 23andMe results as a .csv file, rather than the clumsy method I was using of downloading their HTML files and converting to Microsloth Unicode. I am not really programmer, but I wanted this application enough that I ground my way through it and now have a cool script. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 8 20:03:18 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 20:03:18 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline Message-ID: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> http://www.theverge.com/a/transhumanism-2015/history-of-transhumanism http://www.theverge.com/a/transhumanism-2015/what-is-transhumanism -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 8 21:38:34 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:38:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> Message-ID: <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline http://www.theverge.com/a/transhumanism-2015/history-of-transhumanism http://www.theverge.com/a/transhumanism-2015/what-is-transhumanism -- Dr Anders Sandberg Cool! Anders, make them spell your name correctly please. spike From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 9 02:39:00 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 18:39:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robot rides bicycle Message-ID: <008301d1322a$c35fb660$4a1f2320$@att.net> Now this is cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT3vfSQePcs You already know exactly what happens next. Some other yahoo builds one, and the next words to be uttered are watashitachiha resu shimashou. The words after that are You're on, buddy. On your marks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 9 07:57:01 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:57:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> Message-ID: <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> On 2015-12-08 21:38, spike wrote: > Cool! Anders, make them spell your name correctly please. But that is my evil twin. Triplet, actually. He and Anders Sandburg work with Nick's evil twin Nick Bostrum at the Future of Humanities institute. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From giulio at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:18:15 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:18:15 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> Message-ID: Reasonable and balanced article (besides the typos). When was it published? On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2015-12-08 21:38, spike wrote: >> >> Cool! Anders, make them spell your name correctly please. > > But that is my evil twin. Triplet, actually. He and Anders Sandburg work > with Nick's evil twin Nick Bostrum at the Future of Humanities institute. > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:08:55 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:08:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 9 December 2015 at 08:18, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Reasonable and balanced article (besides the typos). When was it published? > President for Life By Elmo Keep on December 2, 2015 (They do leave their articles undated. Wonder why?) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:46:51 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:46:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind: Anyone here read it? In-Reply-To: References: <2AC2D42D-4DAF-4BB0-819D-3BE5D154C590@gmail.com> <2A0BD8D9-0E11-4A1F-8EDB-8E0DCE88396C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2015 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > I see that he cites Lynn and Vanhanen in the index, but I've yet to read the > book -- or the work of Lynn and Vanhanen for that matter. :) > Scott Alexander has a detailed book review out and is pretty skeptical about the theme of the book. Also many comments after the review. BillK From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 9 10:11:22 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:11:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind: Anyone here read it? In-Reply-To: References: <2AC2D42D-4DAF-4BB0-819D-3BE5D154C590@gmail.com> <2A0BD8D9-0E11-4A1F-8EDB-8E0DCE88396C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5667FE4A.1070409@aleph.se> I have not had the time to read it properly, but I made a few dips into it. I liked the section where he dealt with the Lynn and Vanhanen-centered shouting match. On 2015-12-09 09:46, BillK wrote: > On 26 October 2015 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> I see that he cites Lynn and Vanhanen in the index, but I've yet to read the >> book -- or the work of Lynn and Vanhanen for that matter. :) >> > > Scott Alexander has a detailed book review out and is pretty skeptical > about the theme of the book. > Also many comments after the review. > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 9 11:11:51 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:11:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI Message-ID: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> Sorry for dragging my job onto the list, but maybe I can get some list-members into our office :-) -- The Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford invites applications for four research positions. We seek outstanding applicants with backgrounds that could include computer science, mathematics, economics, technology policy, and/or philosophy. The Future of Humanity Institute is a leading research centre in the University of Oxford looking at big-picture questions for human civilization. We seek to focus our work where we can make the greatest positive difference. Our researchers regularly collaborate with governments from around the world and key industry groups working on artificial intelligence. To read more about the institute?s research activities, please see http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/research/research-areas/. *1. Research Fellow ? AI ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence Research Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121242). We are seeking expertise in the technical aspects of AI safety, including a solid understanding of present-day academic and industrial research frontiers, machine learning development, and knowledge of academic and industry stakeholders and groups. The fellow is expected to have the knowledge and skills to advance the state of the art in proposed solutions to the ?control problem.? This person should have a technical background, for example, in computer science, mathematics, or statistics. Candidates with a very strong machine learning or mathematics background are encouraged to apply even if they do not have experience with AI safety topics, assuming they are willing to switch to this subfield. Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1M11RbY. *2. Research Fellow ? AI Policy ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence Research Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121241). We are looking for someone with expertise relevant to assessing the socio-economic and strategic impacts of future technologies, identifying key issues and potential risks, and rigorously analysing policy options for responding to these challenges. This person might have an economics, political science, social science, or risk analysis background. Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1OfWd7Q. *3. Research Fellow ? AI Strategy ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence Research Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121168). We are looking for someone with a multidisciplinary science, technology, or philosophy background and with outstanding analytical ability. The post holder will investigate, understand, and analyse the capabilities and plausibility of theoretically feasible but not yet fully developed technologies that could impact AI development, and to relate such analysis to broader strategic and systemic issues. The academic background of the post-holder is unspecified, but could involve, for example, computer science or economics. Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1jM5Pic. *4. Research Fellow ? ERC UnPrEDICT Programme, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121313). This Research Fellowship will work on a new European Research Council-funded UnPrEDICT (Uncertainty and Precaution: Ethical Decisions Involving Catastrophic Threats) programme, hosted by the Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford. This is a research position for a strong generalist, and will focus on topics related to existential risk, model uncertainty, the precautionary principle, and other principles for handling technological progress. In particular, this research fellow will help to develop decision procedures for navigating empirical uncertainties related to existential risk, including information hazards and situations where model or structural uncertainty are the dominating form of uncertainty. The research could take a decision-theoretic approach, although this is not strictly necessary. We also expect the candidate to engage with the research on specific existential risks, possibly including developing a framework to evaluate uncertain risks in the context of nuclear weapons, climate risks, dual use biotechnology, and/or the development of future artificial intelligence. The successful candidate must demonstrate evidence of, or the potential for producing, outstanding research in the areas of relevance to the project, the ability to integrate interdisciplinary research in philosophy, mathematics and/or economics, and familiarity with both normative and empirical issues surrounding existential risk. Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1HSCKgP. Alternatively, please visit http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/vacancies/ or https://www.recruit.ox.ac.uk/ and search using the above vacancy IDs for more details. -- -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 9 14:32:55 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 06:32:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> Message-ID: <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> >...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: Re: [ExI] The list is in the timeline On 2015-12-08 21:38, spike wrote: >> Cool! Anders, make them spell your name correctly please... >...But that is my evil twin. Triplet, actually. He and Anders Sandburg work with Nick's evil twin Nick Bostrum at the Future of Humanities institute. -- Dr Anders Sandberg _______________________________________________ Oh OK thanks for that clarification. Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce the complexity of triplets, it upsets my sense of symmetry to imagine two of the siblings evil and one good. It just feels like you should have one on either end of the malicious/benevolence spectrum with one exactly at zero. But that introduces a new complexity: how does the middle guy stay exactly unevil and ungood simultaneously? Or does she alternate days? And what if the same action being defined as good by some observers and evil by others? This is common in politics for instance. I can't even give you an example of a living adult exactly at zero on the mal/ben spectrum. It is easy to be evil, and it is pretty clear how to be good. But how does one be exactly balanced? If the neutral triplet strays even a little bit either direction, it causes the whole family to be defined as that characteristic. The mind boggles. spike From butler.two.one at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:04:59 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 08:04:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anders, Robin Hanson might be a good person to forward this to on the "six degrees" principle. I don't have his contact info handy at the moment. On Dec 9, 2015 3:13 AM, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > Sorry for dragging my job onto the list, but maybe I can get some > list-members into our office :-) > > -- > The Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford invites > applications for four research positions. We seek outstanding applicants > with backgrounds that could include computer science, mathematics, > economics, technology policy, and/or philosophy. > > The Future of Humanity Institute is a leading research centre in the > University of Oxford looking at big-picture questions for human > civilization. We seek to focus our work where we can make the greatest > positive difference. Our researchers regularly collaborate with governments > from around the world and key industry groups working on artificial > intelligence. To read more about the institute?s research activities, > please see http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/research/research-areas/. > > *1. Research Fellow ? AI ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence Research > Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121242). We are > seeking expertise in the technical aspects of AI safety, including a solid > understanding of present-day academic and industrial research frontiers, > machine learning development, and knowledge of academic and industry > stakeholders and groups. The fellow is expected to have the knowledge and > skills to advance the state of the art in proposed solutions to the > ?control problem.? This person should have a technical background, for > example, in computer science, mathematics, or statistics. Candidates with a > very strong machine learning or mathematics background are encouraged to > apply even if they do not have experience with AI safety topics, assuming > they are willing to switch to this subfield. Applications are due by Noon 6 > January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford > recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1M11RbY. > > *2. Research Fellow ? AI Policy ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence > Research Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121241). We > are looking for someone with expertise relevant to assessing the > socio-economic and strategic impacts of future technologies, identifying > key issues and potential risks, and rigorously analysing policy options for > responding to these challenges. This person might have an economics, > political science, social science, or risk analysis background. > Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can apply for this > position through the Oxford recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1OfWd7Q. > > *3. Research Fellow ? AI Strategy ? Strategic Artificial Intelligence > Research Centre, Future of Humanity Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121168). We > are looking for someone with a multidisciplinary science, technology, or > philosophy background and with outstanding analytical ability. The post > holder will investigate, understand, and analyse the capabilities and > plausibility of theoretically feasible but not yet fully developed > technologies that could impact AI development, and to relate such analysis > to broader strategic and systemic issues. The academic background of the > post-holder is unspecified, but could involve, for example, computer > science or economics. Applications are due by Noon 6 January 2016. You can > apply for this position through the Oxford recruitment website at > http://bit.ly/1jM5Pic. > > *4. Research Fellow ? ERC UnPrEDICT Programme, Future of Humanity > Institute* (Vacancy ID# 121313). This Research Fellowship will work on a > new European Research Council-funded UnPrEDICT (Uncertainty and Precaution: > Ethical Decisions Involving Catastrophic Threats) programme, hosted by the > Future of Humanity Institute at the University of Oxford. This is a > research position for a strong generalist, and will focus on topics related > to existential risk, model uncertainty, the precautionary principle, and > other principles for handling technological progress. In particular, this > research fellow will help to develop decision procedures for navigating > empirical uncertainties related to existential risk, including information > hazards and situations where model or structural uncertainty are the > dominating form of uncertainty. The research could take a > decision-theoretic approach, although this is not strictly necessary. We > also expect the candidate to engage with the research on specific > existential risks, possibly including developing a framework to evaluate > uncertain risks in the context of nuclear weapons, climate risks, dual use > biotechnology, and/or the development of future artificial intelligence. > The successful candidate must demonstrate evidence of, or the potential for > producing, outstanding research in the areas of relevance to the project, > the ability to integrate interdisciplinary research in philosophy, > mathematics and/or economics, and familiarity with both normative and > empirical issues surrounding existential risk. Applications are due by Noon > 6 January 2016. You can apply for this position through the Oxford > recruitment website at http://bit.ly/1HSCKgP. > > Alternatively, please visit http://www.fhi.ox.ac.uk/vacancies/ or > https://www.recruit.ox.ac.uk/ and search using the above vacancy IDs for > more details. > > -- > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:08:35 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 08:08:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> Message-ID: This is why you need Zadeh or Kosko to rescue things with fuzzy logic! Put a hysteresis band in the middle! :) On Dec 9, 2015 6:48 AM, "spike" wrote: > > > >...On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > > > Subject: Re: [ExI] The list is in the timeline > > On 2015-12-08 21:38, spike wrote: > >> Cool! Anders, make them spell your name correctly please... > > >...But that is my evil twin. Triplet, actually. He and Anders Sandburg > work > with Nick's evil twin Nick Bostrum at the Future of Humanities institute. > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > _______________________________________________ > > Oh OK thanks for that clarification. > > Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil > twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce > the complexity of triplets, it upsets my sense of symmetry to imagine two > of > the siblings evil and one good. It just feels like you should have one on > either end of the malicious/benevolence spectrum with one exactly at zero. > > But that introduces a new complexity: how does the middle guy stay exactly > unevil and ungood simultaneously? Or does she alternate days? And what if > the same action being defined as good by some observers and evil by others? > This is common in politics for instance. I can't even give you an example > of a living adult exactly at zero on the mal/ben spectrum. It is easy to > be > evil, and it is pretty clear how to be good. But how does one be exactly > balanced? If the neutral triplet strays even a little bit either > direction, > it causes the whole family to be defined as that characteristic. > > The mind boggles. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:49:44 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:49:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] robot rides bicycle In-Reply-To: <008301d1322a$c35fb660$4a1f2320$@att.net> References: <008301d1322a$c35fb660$4a1f2320$@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks Spike that is cool! That's the first time I've seen something like that; we've seen computers do stuff that we find difficult, like solving calculus problems, for decades but finding a robot that is good at something we find easy, like riding a bike, is much rarer. Or at least it used to be rare but the times they are a changin. John K Clark On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:39 PM, spike wrote: > Now this is cool. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT3vfSQePcs > > > > You already know exactly what happens next. Some other yahoo builds one, and the next words to be uttered are watashitachiha resu shimashou. The words after that are You?re on, buddy. > > > > On your marks? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 17:37:18 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 12:37:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Google's Quantum Computer Message-ID: ?Google's D-wave machine is not a general purpose Quantum Computer that can work on any sort of problem, those are more difficult to build, but now it looks like D-Wave's claim that it can solve "QUBO class problems" dramatically faster than conventional computers may have some truth to it. Interestingly protein folding is a QUBO problem and solving that would revolutionize medicine and be a big stepping stone toward full scale Drexler style Nanotechnology. Google just published a paper saying their D-Wave can solve those type of problems 100 million times faster than the regular computer: ?*"?* *We found that for problem instances involving nearly 1000 binary variables, quantum annealing significantly outperforms its classical counterpart, simulated annealing. It is more than 10^8 times faster than simulated annealing running on a single core. We also compared the quantum hardware to another algorithm called Quantum Monte Carlo. This is a method designed to emulate the behavior of quantum systems, but it runs on conventional processors. While the scaling with size between these two methods is comparable, they are again separated by a large factor sometimes as high as 10^8.?"* On the other hand Google's paper has not been peer reviewed yet, on the third hand the regular computer was not using the most efficient algorithm available, on the fourth hand it does prove that the D-wave really is using Quantum logic in its internal computations not regular logic, on the fifth hand as the problem gets larger the advantage the D-Wave would have over the regular computer would increase, You can see the paper at: ? http://arxiv.org/pdf/1512.02206v1.pdf ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 9 17:29:52 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:29:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robot rides bicycle In-Reply-To: References: <008301d1322a$c35fb660$4a1f2320$@att.net> Message-ID: <006701d132a7$3784eac0$a68ec040$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 8:50 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] robot rides bicycle >?Thanks Spike that is cool! That's the first time I've seen something like that; we've seen computers do stuff that we find difficult, like solving calculus problems? Me too! In principal, a control system for doing this is easy enough to imagine, hard to do: with a bicycle when you start to fall one way, you turn into that direction. We know how to do critical damping with control systems. We know how to do lead-lag compensation, etc. This is the first time I have seen it done with a bicycle. You know there will soon be robot unicycle riders, and of course the perfectly logical next step is racing them. Cool! As I think about it, robot bicycle racin makes more sense than robot motorcycles: the initial cost is much lower, the consequences of a crash are much less. If we set up a serpentine course, it emphasizes software and racing strategy rather than raw power. Internal combustion is already a mature technology: even motorsport enthusiasts such as Your Humble Moderator find it dull after a while. Racing (all areas) is a sport classification in desperate need of innovative ideas. You know the proles will pay good money to watch robots racing bicycles. Ooooh the money to be made here, just thinking about it makes my butt hurt. It?s a good hurt. Now is a fun time to be living. spike , for decades but finding a robot that is good at something we find easy, like riding a bike, is much rarer. Or at least it used to be rare but the times they are a changin. John K Clark On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:39 PM, spike > wrote: Now this is cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT3vfSQePcs You already know exactly what happens next. Some other yahoo builds one, and the next words to be uttered are watashitachiha resu shimashou. The words after that are You?re on, buddy. On your marks? _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Wed Dec 9 18:39:13 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:39:13 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> Message-ID: <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> On 2015-12-09 16:04, Michael Butler wrote: > > Anders, Robin Hanson might be a good person to forward this to on the > "six degrees" principle. I don't have his contact info handy at the > moment. > Given that he is research associate with FHI and on our office mailing list, I think he knows :-) Six degrees of separation is too much in the academic world. It is way smaller. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:49:19 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:49:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind: Anyone here read it? In-Reply-To: References: <2AC2D42D-4DAF-4BB0-819D-3BE5D154C590@gmail.com> <2A0BD8D9-0E11-4A1F-8EDB-8E0DCE88396C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:46 AM, BillK wrote: > On 26 October 2015 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > I see that he cites Lynn and Vanhanen in the index, but I've yet to read > the > > book -- or the work of Lynn and Vanhanen for that matter. :) > > > > > Scott Alexander has a detailed book review out and is pretty skeptical > about the theme of the book. > Also many comments after the review. > > > > ### I don't think he makes a good point against the book. He uses a picked example (South Africa and Japan) to make the difference between individual and country IQs and incomes look smaller, and complains about the book not dealing with the direction of causation between IQ and incomes. Neither criticism is powerful - picking samples is a poor way of building an argument and the direction of causation is covered in other publications. Jones bent over-backwards to downplay the implications of his work for US and European immigration, doubtless to avoid being Watsoned for telling inconvenient truths but the data he provides speak for themselves. Obviously, an IQ test should be the prime tool of any immigration policy aimed at increasing general welfare. Pity the US Govt forbade IQ testing in most situations. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:52:33 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:52:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind: Anyone here read it? In-Reply-To: References: <2AC2D42D-4DAF-4BB0-819D-3BE5D154C590@gmail.com> <2A0BD8D9-0E11-4A1F-8EDB-8E0DCE88396C@gmail.com> Message-ID: BTW, yes, I did read the book. 4-star recommendation, one star off for being too politically correct but then, nobody likes being fired from a job, so I understand Jones' being cagey. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:02:56 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 14:02:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Dec 7, 2015 11:33 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: > > We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in > space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. > > That depends on how cheaply greenhouses on non-planetside colonies can be > set up. Farming on Earth benefits a lot from vast areas of farmable lands > having already been set up for free - so far as human effort is concerned - > but the price is wildly varying climate and soil conditions. Ask any > farmer what they would give to be able to control the weather on their > farm, timing the storms to the minute and setting the temperature to within > a tenth of a degree Celsius, things that would be trivial (so long as they > don't use more power and water than available) in an orbital greenhouse. > ### In the not-too-distant future farming could rely on a standard bioprocessing organism and a diverse array of energy transducers. Basically, you design an organism capable of taking in a standard source of chemical energy (e.g. glucose), and some minerals, and output human-optimized feed with all vitamins, energy sources, palatants, texturizers and whatever else you might need to sell it to eaters. Then you design a set of organisms for energy transduction - e.g. a black algae that would thrive in tanks in space (black to absorb all the available radiation) and consume carbon dioxide from an atmospheric scrubber on a space station. Another energy transducer would be a massive black grass capable of quickly covering large swaths of land, completely inedible and poisonous to Terran animals, capable of strangling all existing floral competitors. Another might be a black algae capable of completely covering the surface of water, stilling the waves and intercepting all light, suffocating the life beneath. Another would be a pale mycelium, spreading in the vicinity of hot and cold ocean-floor vents, strangling.... you know the drill :) The future of farming will be black, with huge hearts slowly pumping a nutritious syrup to nodes making tasty things. If there is still any need for farming, that is. AIs and EMS might not be interested in it at all. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:10:14 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:10:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Dec 7, 2015 11:33 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: >> > We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in >> space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. >> >> That depends on how cheaply greenhouses on non-planetside colonies can be >> set up. Farming on Earth benefits a lot from vast areas of farmable lands >> having already been set up for free - so far as human effort is concerned - >> but the price is wildly varying climate and soil conditions. Ask any >> farmer what they would give to be able to control the weather on their >> farm, timing the storms to the minute and setting the temperature to within >> a tenth of a degree Celsius, things that would be trivial (so long as they >> don't use more power and water than available) in an orbital greenhouse. >> > > ### In the not-too-distant future farming could rely on a standard > bioprocessing organism and a diverse array of energy transducers. > Basically, you design an organism capable of taking in a standard source of > chemical energy (e.g. glucose), and some minerals, and output > human-optimized feed with all vitamins, energy sources, palatants, > texturizers and whatever else you might need to sell it to eaters. > Doesn't work in practice. Existing crop types have a variety of textures, flavors, nutrients, and other particulars; some people like (or need) certain types of crops, while others eat other kinds. A one-crop-fits-all, no matter how well engineered, seems impossible given the array of sometimes contradicting demands to feed an entire populace. Which isn't to say you can't supplement existing crops with this, just that it's only a supplement, not a replacement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:12:01 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 14:12:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > > It's not so much the abolition of democracy, but of the state. After all, > you wouldn't want, I trust, to abolish democracy but leave the state in > place -- say, as an autocracy or an oligarchy. And, no, I don't agree with > someone like Hoppe on this. Democracy simpliciter might be worse than the > stateless system I would prefer, but current democracy might be better than > many other likely systems to arise in its wake. (I certainly wouldn't want > the US to evolve into a praetorian guard state, which might be one likely > outcome, especially given the concentration of executive power and the > increasing reliance on police and military power over the last few years.) > ### We might be nit-picking details here, but I would say I am for the abolition of democracy, as long as I get something better. If the US was a true democracy, transmitting the will of the people, as expressed in voting, unweighted and unfiltered, to the effectors of power, we'd have a mess. This does not mean that I support authoritarianism. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:27:29 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:27:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> Message-ID: After reading all the job descriptions, I find myself eminently qualified for any of them. I assume that you have no ageist policies that would keep a 73 year old from having the job. But I do think that I too old to learn British. Another language at my age would be just too much. Sorry! Bill W On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2015-12-09 16:04, Michael Butler wrote: > > Anders, Robin Hanson might be a good person to forward this to on the "six > degrees" principle. I don't have his contact info handy at the moment. > > Given that he is research associate with FHI and on our office mailing > list, I think he knows :-) > > Six degrees of separation is too much in the academic world. It is way > smaller. > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:32:22 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 14:32:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Doesn't work in practice. Existing crop types have a variety of textures, > flavors, nutrients, and other particulars; some people like (or need) > certain types of crops, while others eat other kinds. A one-crop-fits-all, > no matter how well engineered, seems impossible given the array of > sometimes contradicting demands to feed an entire populace. > ### The standard bioprocessor would have many output streams, containing a wide variety of foodstuffs and responsive to user controls. Almost everything we eat is transformed air and water, the bioprocessor would just spatially separate the task of synthesizing food from the task of collecting matter and energy needed for synthesis. This separation would be efficient, since matter and energy needed for synthesis are dilute and relatively uniform (sunlight and air are similar all over) but the demand for food is concentrated and highly diversified (people in restaurants want thousands of different things). It makes sense to transform the dilute inputs in an easily transportable form and synthesize the diverse outputs close to points of demand. Of course, the bioprocessor would make not just replicas of crops - it would also output condiments, beverages including exquisite wine vintages, meats, rare, cooked, whatever you fancy. John Varley's Titan, Wizard, Demon trilogy must be credited for a part of the idea. Great books. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:07:39 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 12:07:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: <5665D714.2050404@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:32 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > ### The standard bioprocessor would have many output streams, containing a > wide variety of foodstuffs and responsive to user controls. > That's the promise, but history shows that with these types of project, the promise tends not to happen if it's more efficient to do something less. In this case, it's more efficient to just create one, so short-sighted middle managers do that, and then many (possibly most) end users can't healthily subsist on the result. The solution to this is non-technical. That doesn't mean the problem can't be solved, just that you need another approach to solve it. Heck, if you could engineer the system such that the above-mentioned short-sightedness either is given no chance to interfere or leads naturally to the correct solution anyway, there are more immediate problems such a solution could be adapted to. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:46:45 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:46:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rafal wrote: ### We might be nit-picking details here, but I would say I am for the abolition of democracy, as long as I get something better. If the US was a true democracy, transmitting the will of the people, as expressed in voting, unweighted and unfiltered, to the effectors of power, we'd have a mess. This does not mean that I support authoritarianism. -------------------- Maybe just a mess of a different sort? Just what counts as authoritarianism? When many (most?) of our men and women in Washington seem to be in the pockets of billionaires of the left and right, and must toe the line (some actually signing pledges not to raise taxes) to keep their campaign funds flowing, then maybe we are in kind of an authoritarian government - government by campaign contributors dictating to their pocket pols. Plutocracy. Someone may want to help me with the history here. It may be that we have always been this way in the good ol USA. bill w On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 1:12 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 8:06 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: >> >> >> It's not so much the abolition of democracy, but of the state. After all, >> you wouldn't want, I trust, to abolish democracy but leave the state in >> place -- say, as an autocracy or an oligarchy. And, no, I don't agree with >> someone like Hoppe on this. Democracy simpliciter might be worse than the >> stateless system I would prefer, but current democracy might be better than >> many other likely systems to arise in its wake. (I certainly wouldn't want >> the US to evolve into a praetorian guard state, which might be one likely >> outcome, especially given the concentration of executive power and the >> increasing reliance on police and military power over the last few years.) >> > > ### We might be nit-picking details here, but I would say I am for the > abolition of democracy, as long as I get something better. If the US was a > true democracy, transmitting the will of the people, as expressed in > voting, unweighted and unfiltered, to the effectors of power, we'd have a > mess. This does not mean that I support authoritarianism. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 23:08:07 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:08:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: John, it's imbecilic for you to call the beliefs of the native Hawaiians imbecilic. And just rude. I have only respect for the culture of a people who crossed the Pacific in fucking canoes; they've got your stock beaten there. And those beliefs have valuable insights on humanity and nature. Myths are some of the only well preserved commentary on prehistoric existence. You could learn a lot from them and maybe become less obstinate. Drop some acid dude. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:14:01 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 17:14:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 6:32 AM, spike wrote: > Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil > twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce > the complexity of triplets, it upsets my sense of symmetry to imagine two > of > the siblings evil and one good. It just feels like you should have one on > either end of the malicious/benevolence spectrum with one exactly at zero. > Evil in different ways. Imagine a set of triplets accelerated away from one another by a shockwave, but with local scenery strongly suggesting each one is stationary. Each triplet would think themselves "not moving" and the other two as "in motion". For example, consider one who strives to bring about an uncontrolled Singularity, believing that any attempt to control it will, given human nature, turn out bad. Then another triplet who seeks to conquer all the areas of the world that could produce the Singularity, so that only that one's preferred model of the Singularity can come about. And the final triplet being one of those folks who sincerely believes the kindest and best fate for humanity is extinction, as soon as possible. Each of these would regard the other two, from their own perspective, as evil. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:07:37 2015 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:07:37 +1100 Subject: [ExI] robot rides bicycle In-Reply-To: <006701d132a7$3784eac0$a68ec040$@att.net> References: <008301d1322a$c35fb660$4a1f2320$@att.net> <006701d132a7$3784eac0$a68ec040$@att.net> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 04:29, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Clark > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 8:50 AM > > > > >?Thanks Spike that is cool! That's the first time I've seen something > like that; we've seen computers do stuff that we find difficult, like > solving calculus problems? > > > > Me too! > The video was uploaded about 4 years ago, so it's pretty old. It would be interesting to see what is being done nowadays. Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 02:58:13 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:58:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> Message-ID: <002101d132f6$9dcbfc70$d963f550$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 5:14 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The list is in the timeline On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 6:32 AM, spike > wrote: Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce the complexity of triplets? just feels like you should have one on either end of the malicious/benevolence spectrum with one exactly at zero. >?Evil in different ways. Imagine a set of triplets accelerated away from one another by a shockwave, but with local scenery strongly suggesting each one is stationary. Each triplet would think themselves "not moving" and the other two as "in motion"?. Each of these would regard the other two, from their own perspective, as evil. Adrian Sure. The possibilities are intriguing with three triplets. The good/evil axis is not so straightforward or objective as something like wealth. We can imagine a kind of rock/paper/scissors paradox in a three-way comparison of evil vs righteous. We can imagine competitions, where all manner of irony and paradox arises. Everyone is the hero of her own autobiography. Every member of every triple would always see herself as the righteous one. So we could query each and have her identify which of her siblings is the evil and which is the neutral. That way each sibling would get one vote as being the good one (made by themselves) but one sibling might get two evils and the other get two neutrals. In that case the third would by necessity have one good one neutral and one evil vote. So the double neutral wins the title with a net one point. The one good, one neutral one evil vote getter scores a zero, so they are the neutral, and the remaining hapless triplet ends with a score of negative 1, and is identified as the evil triplet. But wait, there?s more. If an evil person identifies you as evil, then that counts as a vote for good, ja? You multiply their assessment of your benevolence score by their benevolence score to get yours. Case 1, Alice, Betty and Carla try to determine who is the evil triplet, who is the neutral and who is the righteous. Each identifies herself as good, by the reasoning presented earlier (who among us considers himself evil?) So imagine the symmetrical case first, where each triplet identifies herself as righteous and each gets on evil vote and one neutral, so their scores come out zero, multiply thru and all three get zero. None of their opinions of each other or themselves is worth a damn: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 0 -1 Betty -1 1 0 Carla 0 -1 1 0 0 0 Case 2, unsymmetrical. Alice gets one righteous and two neutrals, Betty gets one righteous, one neutral and one evil (for a zero) and Carla gets two evils, one of which is cast by a positive 1, so it stays A=1, B=0 and C=-1. This comes about if Betty switches her vote and the other two hold: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 0 -1 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 0 -1 1 1 0 -1 How evil is that! Carla is unanimously identified, even auto-identified as evil! But wait, being identified as evil by an evil person is the same as a righteous (my enemy?s enemy is my friend.) So Alice got one vote from Alice, 1 times 1 is one so she stays at 1 and Betty gets one vote from the negative 1 scoring evil Carla, so multiplying Carla?s negative 1 by the negative 1 she gave Betty makes Betty?s new score 1 from herself and (-1)(-1) = 2. Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 0 -1 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 0 -1 1 1 0 -1 multiply--> 1 2 -3 Case 3, Carla, realizing that that she is stuck with evil, but not feeling particularly evil, decides on an alternate strategy. She votes herself evil and Alice righteous, identifying Betty as the neutral. Well now, this is an interesting turn, for Alice ends up with 2 points, Betty with 1 and Carla with -3. Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 0 -1 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 1 0 -1 1 1 -3 multiply--> -2 2 0 So after the vote, it come out to A=-2, B=2, C=0. But wait, we need to vote again, because now Alice?s opinion is doubled and reversed, Betty?s is doubled and Carla?s opinion is not worth a damn. Alice catches on to this evil scheme by which she was identified as evil, and votes herself the evil twin. Weirdness ensues. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:30:25 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:30:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> References: <56673786.6090403@aleph.se> <004f01d13200$cb0b01a0$612104e0$@att.net> <5667DECD.1090106@aleph.se> <001401d1328e$7efa9030$7cefb090$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2015 9:48 AM, "spike" wrote: > Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil > twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce > the complexity of triplets, it upsets my sense of symmetry to imagine two of > the siblings evil and one good. It just feels like you should have one on > either end of the malicious/benevolence spectrum with one exactly at zero. > > But that introduces a new complexity: how does the middle guy stay exactly > unevil and ungood simultaneously? Or does she alternate days? And what if > the same action being defined as good by some observers and evil by others? Heroes and villians seem to be only at the extremes of your spectrum, so are more simply referenced by boolean variables. The classic evil twin is then a boolean NOT operation on one's own "isEvil" property. Now in this case of a triple, I'd like to propose something that already exists in the domain of set theory applied to SQL/database design; another dimension of evil: Null. It means neither yes nor no. It is the unknown and unknowable. It has been misused and abused to imply or suggest the default or the most-likely, but that is a wild in sheep's clothing. (I assume some combination of cotton and denim, yeah?) So the family has a Good son, an Evil son, and the Null son. Who can say what imbalance was born when the Null son entered the world? The Null son is its own negation. Any operations involving the Null son yields only the Null son. Anders' suggestion of a triple leaving origin along equiangular trajectory at relativistic speed (that's how I imagined it) made me imagine this experiment in terms of quantum entanglements. Does a 3 qubit computer have a Null value or equivalent? Does that mean unknown or is that a burnt-out qubit? Hmm, more stuff to look up tomorrow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:50:07 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:50:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 Will Steinberg wrote: > ?>? > John, it's imbecilic for you to call the beliefs of the native Hawaiians > imbecilic. > > ?So you believe ?Mount Kea ? is not a extinct volcano but is Wao Akua the ? realm of the Gods where the Earth Mother met the Sky Father ?. I disagree. I think that idea is DUMB and anybody who belies it in 2015 is also DUMB. ? > > ?>? > And just rude. ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? Why does religion always get a free pass? I think it is not only morally acceptable but is moral required to rude to some people, and people who are so intellectually dead and so lacking the spirit of exploration that they oppose the construction of the thirty meter telescope are in that category. All religion is imbecilic and all Gods have very low IQ's, but Earth Mother and Sky Father ? are mentally handicapped even by that low standard. ? > ?> ? > I have only respect for the culture of a people who crossed the Pacific in > fucking canoes; I respect that too, but that was a very long time ago and smart people don't always have smart offspring as the opponents of the thirty meter telescope demonstrate. I don't think the telescope opponents are smart enough to navigate across a swimming pool. > ?> ? > those beliefs have valuable insights on humanity ?And the insight is human beings can be DUMB.? > ?>? > Drop some acid dude. More could be learned about the nature of the universe if the thirty meter telescope ?is constructed dude, and I thought members of this list were supposed to be interested in that. John K Clark. > > __ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:45:52 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:45:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > John, it's imbecilic for you to call the beliefs of the native Hawaiians > imbecilic. And just rude. > I wouldn't call them imbecilic so much as uninformed, though my guess is there's more going on here. My guess is it's nationalism. That the beliefs are being clung to more tenacious not so much because they believe them as the beliefs are used to distinguish them from what they view as the colonizing culture. I don't know enough about this case, but that my guess. In other words, since science, etc. is seen as part of the colonizing power's culture, then they're going to cleave more tightly to what they feel are beliefs their ancestors held before contact with the colonial power. I have only respect for the culture of a people who crossed the Pacific in > fucking canoes; they've got your stock beaten there. > Um, I'm not sure that's a reason to respect every last aspect of a culture. Every culture that's still around has survived. I'm sure you would be mighty critical of, say, neo-Nazi culture in the US or of Far Right ultranationalist culture in Croatia or Slovakia. Am I wrong? Okay, I'm not equating native Hawaiian culture with those cases, but if you're just going to go on the diaspora across the Pacific is a big deal, then we can study that without giving in to every demand made by those who claim to speak for that culture. (You're also ignoring that whatever aspects of the culture allowed them to spread might not still be around now to any degree. What aspects that allowed people to migrate from Europe to North America are still encoded and worth allowing to trump this or that project?) > And those beliefs have valuable insights on humanity and nature. Myths > are some of the only well preserved commentary on prehistoric existence. > You could learn a lot from them and maybe become less obstinate. Drop some > acid dude. > Those insights can be gained more by studying the culture itself rather than accepting its edicts. For instance, we can study Ancient Greek culture without having to go out and, say, kill people for blaspheming their gods. Or where do you draw the line? The issue here is whether a telescope should be built on top of mountain that already has several telescopes. This isn't about, say, bulldozing an archaeological site or forcing Hawaiians to give up their language and customs as practiced in their homes or communities. How far can their edicts go here? (And I'm guessing this is more their elites saying this rather than the rank and file. I don't know for sure, but I've often seen cases where some spokespeople appoint themselves to speak for everyone in a group.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 05:54:41 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 21:54:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline Message-ID: <007b01d1330f$44425960$ccc70c20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty Subject: [Bulk] Re: [ExI] The list is in the timeline On Dec 9, 2015 9:48 AM, "spike" > wrote: >>? Your comment has me pondering evil twins and triplets in general. The evil > twin thing is fairly simple, the terms unambiguous. But once we introduce > the complexity of triplets? >?Now in this case of a triple, I'd like to propose something that already exists in the domain of set theory applied to SQL/database design; another dimension of evil: Null? Mike Dougherty? OK so I pondered more on this and wrote a script to calculate multi-generation hetero- and homo-evaluation of the ethics of the siblings. The game is to sum the votes for righteousness, use that sum in each column as a multiplier for that sister?s vote to give each sister a new ethics score in generation 2. Repeat repeatedly. 30 generations should be enough silliness. Case 1, the symmetrical case, each triplet gives herself a 1 for righteous and each chooses a different sister for the evil one. All three end up with a boring zero and nobody cares about their opinion because each are exactly between good and evil: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 -1 0 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla -1 0 1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 Zzzzzzzz. Case 2, Carla decides she isn?t so righteous, gives herself a neutral and gives her righteous vote to sister Alice: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 -1 0 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 1 -1 0 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 2 -1 -1 2 1 -2 1 3 2 -4 2 4 4 -8 4 5 8 -16 8 6 16 -32 16 7 32 -64 32 8 64 -128 64 9 128 -256 128 10 256 -512 256 11 512 -1024 512 12 1024 -2048 1024 13 2048 -4096 2048 If that happens, then Carla and Alice tie, both righteous, and Betty comes out as evil as Carla and Alice together are good. I am starting to think that righteousness might be a zero sum conserved quantity, neither created nor destroyed, but passed around between siblings. Case 3, Carla decides she?s evil (perhaps for nuking the not-so-bad-once-you-get-to-know-her Betty) and gives herself an evil, again giving Alice the righteous vote: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 -1 0 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 1 0 -1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 2 0 -2 2 0 -2 2 3 2 -2 0 4 2 -4 2 5 4 -6 2 6 6 -10 4 7 10 -16 6 8 16 -26 10 9 26 -42 16 10 42 -68 26 11 68 -110 42 12 110 -178 68 13 178 -288 110 14 288 -466 178 15 466 -754 288 16 754 -1220 466 Again, the sum of all evil is zero, and again Betty is as evil as Alice and Carla, but Alice wins. Here?s a graph. All the Alices will be orange (both start with vowels) all Bettys are Blue, all Carlas are Cyan, and no I didn?t know what color cyan is, yes I had to google on it. I won?t fake it: I am straight and can only see ten colors (the resistor color code.) Here?s the plot for case 3: Now if the auto-evil Carla decides Betty is the good one, then the case is stable and boring once more: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 -1 0 Betty 0 1 -1 Carla 0 1 -1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 1 1 -2 2 1 -2 1 3 1 -2 1 4 1 -2 1 5 1 -2 1 6 1 -2 1 7 1 -2 1 8 1 -2 1 9 1 -2 1 10 1 -2 1 Now if Carla holds onto her low self-esteem and Betty gets into the whole less-holy-than-thou bit, it really gets crazy: Alice is forever stuck being the almost neutral one with the 1 score, but Betty and Carla trade places with each generation, becoming ever more evil and good: Alice Betty Carla Alice 1 -1 0 Betty 0 -1 1 Carla 0 1 -1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 1 -1 0 2 1 0 -1 3 1 -2 1 4 1 2 -3 5 1 -6 5 6 1 10 -11 7 1 -22 21 8 1 42 -43 9 1 -86 85 10 1 170 -171 11 1 -342 341 12 1 682 -683 13 1 -1366 1365 14 1 2730 -2731 15 1 -5462 5461 16 1 10922 -10923 17 1 -21846 21845 18 1 43690 -43691 19 1 -87382 87381 20 1 174762 -174763 Sheeesh! Reminds me of the Wizard of Oz. Dorothy did the whole house-surfing bit, fatally smote the Witch of the East. We already know the Wicked Witch of the West was wicked (the name gives that away) and the Good Witch of the North is good (that name thing again) but we don?t know about East. She was flattened when we arrived. So perhaps she was the neutral, if we assume away the glaring absence of the southern girl. But I digress. If Alice gets into the whole self-identification-as-evil game (all three of these girls are in need of some basic psychological counseling (their parents must have been seriously deficient in child-rearing skills)) then more fun weirdness happens, with Alice marginally stable but boring (isn?t that the way it always goes?) and the other two increasingly schizophrenic or bipolar (I am an engineer, not a psychologist (BillW, save me from me, pal)): Alice Betty Carla Alice -1 0 1 Betty 0 -1 1 Carla 0 1 -1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 -1 0 1 2 1 1 -2 3 -1 -3 4 4 1 7 -8 5 -1 -15 16 6 1 31 -32 7 -1 -63 64 8 1 127 -128 9 -1 -255 256 10 1 511 -512 11 -1 -1023 1024 12 1 2047 -2048 13 -1 -4095 4096 14 1 8191 -8192 15 -1 -16383 16384 16 1 32767 -32768 I have the software, if anyone here wants it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 44913 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 39447 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.png Type: image/png Size: 48236 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 06:18:31 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:18:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Will Steinberg > wrote: John, it's imbecilic for you to call the beliefs of the native Hawaiians imbecilic. And just rude. >?I wouldn't call them imbecilic ? My guess is it's nationalism?Dan A pattern emerges. The society which makes the most progress is that society most willing to re-examine every tradition, review every principle, question every ethical precept and every venerated saint, everything its own ancestors did every generation, and always be willing to hurl it all into the bit bucket if something better comes along. We see plenty of societies which have rejected science for their cultural traditions. We see societies which want to murder those who reject their culture and religion. I want to be on the side which embraces science, growth and change. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 06:56:49 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:56:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <007b01d1330f$44425960$ccc70c20$@att.net> References: <007b01d1330f$44425960$ccc70c20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:54 PM, spike wrote: > all Carlas are Cyan, and no I didn?t know what color cyan is, yes I had to > google on it. > Either you googled wrong, or something got messed up getting your graphs to the list (and my email viewer). Your graphs, as they show up here, have #6EAB47 for Carla, which is closer to "green" than to "cyan". If you want cyan, that's #FFFF00, one of the corners of the color cube and thus one of the most well known colors. If it helps, here are the other seven corners: #000000 - black #FF0000 - red #FFFF00 - yellow #00FF00 - green (a bright enough green that some call this "lime" and put "actual" green nearby, but by most computer display standards this is the definition of green) #0000FF - blue #FF00FF - magenta #FFFFFF - white And here's a visualization I wrote up some years ago, in a fantasy (magic-elemental) context: http://www.wingedcat.org/elements/elementtable.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Dec 9 12:06:17 2015 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 12:06:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind: Anyone here read it? In-Reply-To: References: <2AC2D42D-4DAF-4BB0-819D-3BE5D154C590@gmail.com> <2A0BD8D9-0E11-4A1F-8EDB-8E0DCE88396C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0C605ABD-BB26-415E-8B8F-FACB409724D0@gmu.edu> I blogged the book here: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2015/11/statestupidity.html > On Dec 9, 2015, at 4:46 AM, BillK wrote: > On 26 October 2015 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> I see that he cites Lynn and Vanhanen in the index, but I've yet to read the >> book -- or the work of Lynn and Vanhanen for that matter. :) > > Scott Alexander has a detailed book review out and is pretty skeptical > about the theme of the book. > Also many comments after the review. > > > Robin Hanson http://hanson.gmu.edu Res. Assoc., Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford Univ. Assoc. Professor, George Mason University Chief Scientist, Consensus Point MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 10 13:36:25 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:36:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <56697F4A.4030608@aleph.se> References: <56697F4A.4030608@aleph.se> Message-ID: <56697FD9.80706@aleph.se> Being an ethicist, I would of course stay away from good/evil and instead think of triplets with incompatible moral systems. Alice is doing Aristotelean virtue ethics, Betty is a Kantian deontologist, and Carla is a Consequentialist. Sometimes they agree ("Stealing is wrong!") but disagree on why ("Breaks a principle!" "Reduces utility!" "It is not virtuous!"). Often they disagree ("Of course the doctor should sacrifice the patient to get the organs! That will help several people." "Of course not! Nobody would go to hospitals if that was a risk!" "Is the doctor *skilled*?"). But I love the idea of different evaluations. Thanks Spike for the simulations! Giving yourself a 0 might correspond to a state of humility. Hmm, there ought to be 12 basic cases: Carla can decide on 3 possibilities for herself, given that 2 for Betty, Betty has 2 options for chooing her own state, and that fixes Alice. So 3*2*2=12 cases. But we can flip good and evil and expect the same behavior, so there are 6 core behaviors. Which ones have we not seen? -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 13:44:41 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:44:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> References: <00a901d12f85$07b34500$1719cf00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:47 PM, spike wrote: ?> ? > Many of those reading this may live to experience what happens when a > nation > ? ? > lives on borrowed money for a long time. ?Everybody reading this already knows right now ?what it's like to live ?in a nation that ? lives on borrowed money for a long time ?. ?T he government of the USA has been in debt every year since 1835, and every single president since Herbert Hoover has ?left office with more debt than when he started his presidency. And yet here we are still extraordinarily prosperous compared with most of the world. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 15:19:32 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:19:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline In-Reply-To: <56697FD9.80706@aleph.se> References: <56697F4A.4030608@aleph.se> <56697FD9.80706@aleph.se> Message-ID: <008901d1335e$2c712510$85536f30$@att.net> Ja, I left off a couple of the boring cases, but might have overlooked something fun. There are fractional evil cases (Betty isn't really so bad, just the occasional little white lie, minor armed robbery, that sort of thing.) Anders I am posting you the spreadsheet. Do your Anders magic. spike From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 5:36 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline >. But I love the idea of different evaluations. Thanks Spike for the simulations! You are too kind sir. >.Giving yourself a 0 might correspond to a state of humility. There you go. Humility competitions here we come. >. so there are 6 core behaviors. Which ones have we not seen? -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University Ja, I left off a couple of the boring cases, but might have overlooked something fun. There are fractional evil cases (Betty isn't really so bad, just the occasional little white lie, minor armed robbery, that sort of thing.) Anders I am posting you the spreadsheet. Do your Anders magic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 15:50:38 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:50:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:18 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again > > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > > John, it's imbecilic for you to call the beliefs of the native Hawaiians > imbecilic. And just rude. > > >?I wouldn't call them imbecilic ? My guess is it's nationalism?Dan > > > > A pattern emerges. The society which makes the most progress is that > society most willing to re-examine every tradition, review every principle, > question every ethical precept and every venerated saint, everything its > own ancestors did every generation, and always be willing to hurl it all > into the bit bucket if something better comes along. > > We see plenty of societies which have rejected science for their cultural > traditions. We see societies which want to murder those who reject their > culture and religion. I want to be on the side which embraces science, > growth and change. > > spike > > ?There is a big difference between what we are doing here and what we can do publicaly. Right? While it may be intellectually defensible to criticize religions and cultures and ladies' hairdos, it can get downright dangerous to do so in their faces. We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with our opinions. bill w? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:30:48 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:30:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. But I do think the psychically significant and powerful nature of a sacred space provides a lot of insight into the universe...maybe not in the same way as a telescope. The point is that the cthonic nature of the sacred space means it cannot be moved. It derives its power from its long-standing location. And yeah, the mountain IS the place where the blah blah mother father thing happened. Metaphor is important. Shared beliefs construct of reality. These beliefs may not hold up to SCIENCE, which is a mark against them, but science is also not the only way to interact with the world. The world of consciousness is important too, and I would argue that its exploration will produce insights on the composition of the universe and the nature of being that are as profound, if not more, than what we will see with a telescope. But I mean, we really ought to build that telescope. Actually, hell, build it on the mountain. But don't discount the VALUE of ancient beliefs, even if they should maybe get ignored once in a while. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:43:22 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:43:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy Message-ID: Re the list, L5 Society is mentioned as well. It's kind of amusing how many of the transhuman causes I have been involved in. On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT > religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? Why does religion always get > a free pass? That's a really good question. In this case, it is probably conflated with liberal quilt over the history of our culture dispossessing the natives. But I think the main reason lies in the fairly recent end of wars of religion that raged so long in Europe. Though religions were not the root cause (population growth and resource limitations are the root cause) when people finally quit using religious as an excuse to kill each other, it became socially forbidden to argue about religions for fear of starting another war. Of course you certainly can argue that communism is in the same class as religions in being used as a excuse for wars. Keith From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:51:20 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:51:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2015 8:32 AM, "Will Steinberg" wrote: > > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. .... But I mean, we really ought to build that telescope. Actually, hell, build it on the mountain. But don't discount the VALUE of ancient beliefs, even if they should maybe get ignored once in a while. > Will, and thread participants at large: I think it's very possible that the religion story here is a fig leaf for a big (actually quite small) "fuck you". And you know what? That is PERFECTLY FINE with me, because the specific terrestrial location of a specific scientific instrument of this type almost certainly DOES NOT MATTER if science is, well... what it claims to be and what I think IT is. Butthurt about losing this court battle? After a certain point, it's indistinguishable to me from whining. "Let the wookiee win." Sure, if you're defending scientific culture and are worried about idiocracy and the possibility that the wookies ARE WINNING, then (re)act. But really, culturally, I think this is small potatoes and I admit I LIKE it when colonial expropriators get one in the eye occasionally. It's an underdog thing. Doubtless a slight flaw in my character. Wharrgarrrbling about this specific instance? I have used up all the time I have budgeted for the next century on it. Cheers. MMB -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:55:54 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:55:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: PS yes, I know Hawaii is convenient and yes, I know "terrestrial location" includes things like altitude and entails things like "seeing" quality, OK? But as Blackstone famously said, "There must be an end to disputes." But carry on. ;) On Dec 10, 2015 8:51 AM, "Michael Butler" wrote: > > On Dec 10, 2015 8:32 AM, "Will Steinberg" > wrote: > > > > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. .... > But I mean, we really ought to build that telescope. Actually, hell, build > it on the mountain. But don't discount the VALUE of ancient beliefs, even > if they should maybe get ignored once in a while. > > > > Will, and thread participants at large: > > I think it's very possible that the religion story here is a fig leaf for > a big (actually quite small) "fuck you". > > And you know what? That is PERFECTLY FINE with me, because the specific > terrestrial location of a specific scientific instrument of this type > almost certainly DOES NOT MATTER if science is, well... what it claims to > be and what I think IT is. > > Butthurt about losing this court battle? After a certain point, it's > indistinguishable to me from whining. > > "Let the wookiee win." > > Sure, if you're defending scientific culture and are worried about > idiocracy and the possibility that the wookies ARE WINNING, then (re)act. > > But really, culturally, I think this is small potatoes and I admit I LIKE > it when colonial expropriators get one in the eye occasionally. It's an > underdog thing. Doubtless a slight flaw in my character. > > Wharrgarrrbling about this specific instance? I have used up all the time > I have budgeted for the next century on it. > > Cheers. > > MMB > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:03:52 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:03:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: ?> ? > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. > ?Then I don't think you are a interesting person and I don't understand why you want to be on this list.? ? > ?> ? > powerful nature of a sacred space provides a lot of insight into the > universe. ?A lot of insight into bu?llshit. John K Clark? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:04:34 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:04:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Maybe this is a new thread - maybe not. John Clark thinks it is dumb to be religious. That got me to thinking of all the really really smart people in history who were religious - or said they were for reason of power, money, etc. For one, Ben Franklin, clearly one of the greatest geniuses ever, denied that he was an atheist. He was a Deist, he said. Of course, he was also one of the world's greatest liars, so who knows? Then there is Isaac Newton. Most all of you know of some of the really goofy spiritualist things he believed and got into. Many others we could name. So I don't think that John is right. There is no conflict between being IQ smart, creative smart, and being religious. I fully share John's attitude towards religion, by the way. Accept miracles, gods imitating comic book heroes? Nah. ?bill w ? On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:30 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. But I > do think the psychically significant and powerful nature of a sacred space > provides a lot of insight into the universe...maybe not in the same way as > a telescope. The point is that the cthonic nature of the sacred space > means it cannot be moved. It derives its power from its long-standing > location. > > And yeah, the mountain IS the place where the blah blah mother father > thing happened. Metaphor is important. Shared beliefs construct of > reality. These beliefs may not hold up to SCIENCE, which is a mark against > them, but science is also not the only way to interact with the world. The > world of consciousness is important too, and I would argue that its > exploration will produce insights on the composition of the universe and > the nature of being that are as profound, if not more, than what we will > see with a telescope. But I mean, we really ought to build that > telescope. Actually, hell, build it on the mountain. But don't discount > the VALUE of ancient beliefs, even if they should maybe get ignored once in > a while. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:05:33 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:05:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2015 8:44 AM, "Keith Henson" wrote: > > Re the list, L5 Society is mentioned as well. It's kind of amusing > how many of the transhuman causes I have been involved in. > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT > > religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? Why does religion always get > > a free pass? > > That's a really good question. In this case, it is probably conflated > with liberal quilt over the history of our culture dispossessing the > natives. > > But I think the main reason lies in the fairly recent end of wars of > religion that raged so long in Europe. Though religions were not the > root cause (population growth and resource limitations are the root > cause) when people finally quit using religious as an excuse to kill > each other, it became socially forbidden to argue about religions for > fear of starting another war. And this is why I called this kerfuffle small potatoes. The people who won the case did not destroy all the existing instrument installations and strip the flesh off the bones of the researchers for their violations of taboo. (This is not Asimov's "Nightfall".) Looks like progress to me ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:27:39 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:27:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 Michael Butler wrote: > > ?> ? > yes, I know Hawaii is convenient > > ?It's more than just convenient. It will be decades before a thirty meter telescope could be built in space , the Hubble is only 2.4 meters, the thirty meter telescope could see things 156 times dimmer. On the ground only 3 places have good enough seeing conditions for a instrument that large, Hawaii, the ?Atacama desert in Chile, and Antarctica. And the funding for the telescope comes from the USA so if it can't be built in that country it will probably not be built at all. And I blame Mother Fucking Earth and Father Fucking Sky for that intellectual and scientific tragedy! John K Clark > and yes, I know "terrestrial location" includes things like altitude and > entails things like "seeing" quality, OK? But as Blackstone famously said, > "There must be an end to disputes." > > But carry on. ;) > On Dec 10, 2015 8:51 AM, "Michael Butler" > wrote: > >> >> On Dec 10, 2015 8:32 AM, "Will Steinberg" >> wrote: >> > >> > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or >> not. .... But I mean, we really ought to build that telescope. Actually, >> hell, build it on the mountain. But don't discount the VALUE of ancient >> beliefs, even if they should maybe get ignored once in a while. >> > >> >> Will, and thread participants at large: >> >> I think it's very possible that the religion story here is a fig leaf for >> a big (actually quite small) "fuck you". >> >> And you know what? That is PERFECTLY FINE with me, because the specific >> terrestrial location of a specific scientific instrument of this type >> almost certainly DOES NOT MATTER if science is, well... what it claims to >> be and what I think IT is. >> >> Butthurt about losing this court battle? After a certain point, it's >> indistinguishable to me from whining. >> >> "Let the wookiee win." >> >> Sure, if you're defending scientific culture and are worried about >> idiocracy and the possibility that the wookies ARE WINNING, then (re)act. >> >> But really, culturally, I think this is small potatoes and I admit I LIKE >> it when colonial expropriators get one in the eye occasionally. It's an >> underdog thing. Doubtless a slight flaw in my character. >> >> Wharrgarrrbling about this specific instance? I have used up all the time >> I have budgeted for the next century on it. >> >> Cheers. >> >> MMB >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:28:19 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:28:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2015 11:29 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > But I do think that I too old to learn British. Another language at my age would be just too much. > > Sorry! > > Bill W Don't sell yourself short, Bill. They say watching TV is a good way to pick up languages and Britain has a lot of that, as well as catchy songs, another good avenue. Tricky bunch of dialects, though. You'll probably never be taken for a native. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:50:05 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:50:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Michael Butler wrote: > > On Dec 9, 2015 11:29 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > > But I do think that I too old to learn British. Another language at my > age would be just too much. > > > > Sorry! > > > > Bill W > > Don't sell yourself short, Bill. They say watching TV is a good way to > pick up languages and Britain has a lot of that, as well as catchy songs, > another good avenue. > > Tricky bunch of dialects, though. You'll probably never be taken for a > native. > ?Watching the tellie as learning, eh? I would have to paraphrase Lewis > Grizzard: If I did that they might as well take my brain out and stomp > that sucker flat. > ?bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:59:47 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:59:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > ... when people finally quit using religious as an excuse to kill > each other, it became ... When did that happen? :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 18:00:08 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:00:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > John Clark thinks it is dumb to be religious. > ?Yes.? ?> ? > That got me to thinking of all the really really smart people in history > who were religious - or said they were for reason of power, money, etc.For > one, Ben Franklin, > ?I have some Ben Franklin quotes: ?"? Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. ?"? ?"? I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. ?"? ?"? Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies. ?"? ?"? The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason ?"? ?> ? > clearly one of the greatest geniuses ever, denied that he was an atheist. > He was a Deist > ?For reasons I don't understand many people are perfectly willing to abandon the idea of God but not the word G-O-D, so they say "God" means a vague ambiguous grey blob and insist they believe in that. Well I think that vague ambiguous grey blob ?s exist too, but I don't believe in God.? ?> ? > Then there is Isaac Newton. > ?Newton died 300 years ago and back then almost everybody believed in God. And by the way, Newton may have been the greatest scientist who ever lived but he was a very unpleasant man.? > ?> ? > There is no conflict between being IQ smart, creative smart, and being > religious. > A ? article in the July 23 1998 issue of the Journal Nature ? is? entitled "Leading scientists still reject God" ? and? reports on the religious beliefs of top scientists. The astounding thing wasn't that 93% didn't believe in God, the astounding thing was that 7% did. ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 18:11:06 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:11:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ZING. BOOM. *MIC DROP* ...in Western Civ. For the time being. But you knew that. On Dec 10, 2015 10:01 AM, "Dave Sill" wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Keith Henson > wrote: > >> ... when people finally quit using religious as an excuse to kill >> each other, it became ... > > > When did that happen? :-) > > -Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 18:20:56 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:20:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> Message-ID: >> ?Watching the tellie as learning, eh? I would have to paraphrase Lewis Grizzard: If I did that they might as well take my brain out and stomp that sucker flat. I hear ya. But srsly, daytime dramas practically write themselves and so they facilitate picking up {conversational language-x}. Love/pop songs, same deal. News can be good too. Chat shows, as long as they're not too intellectual. Comedy is a mixed bag. When you get to Benny Hill, you're definitely on your own. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 18:32:17 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:32:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ? ?>?There is a big difference between what we are doing here and what we can do publicaly. Right? This is publicly. Everything we write here is wide open and the internet never forgets. Every email should be assumed to be stored and hacked if it is valuable to anyone. >?While it may be intellectually defensible to criticize religions and cultures and ladies' hairdos, it can get downright dangerous to do so in their faces? By all means. Ladies with funny hair won?t kill you, people in weird cultures will not kill you. Of all the religions discussed on the internet, one will sue you and one will kill you. Notice that neither gets discussed much. >? We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with our opinions. bill w? We are already on several hit lists. One of our own went to prison over internet criticism of one of the two religions mentioned in the previous comment. In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten legal repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN Sheesh, how did we get here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:00:50 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:00:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Job openings on AI and xrisk at FHI In-Reply-To: References: <56680C77.8040706@aleph.se> <56687551.3000800@aleph.se> Message-ID: It's kind of hard to tell if you have totally gotten the joke..... But Benny Hill.....I have to admit that he was funny at times, like the Three Stooges, but a little of that goes a long way......let's just say that I have not been tempted to buy any BH dvds. Ernie Kovacs, though, timeless. bill w On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Michael Butler wrote: > > >> ?Watching the tellie as learning, eh? I would have to paraphrase Lewis > Grizzard: If I did that they might as well take my brain out and stomp > that sucker flat. > > I hear ya. But srsly, daytime dramas practically write themselves and so > they facilitate picking up {conversational language-x}. Love/pop songs, > same deal. > > News can be good too. Chat shows, as long as they're not too intellectual. > Comedy is a mixed bag. When you get to Benny Hill, you're definitely on > your own. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 18:50:27 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:50:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <017401d1337b$a349ece0$e9ddc6a0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 Michael Butler > wrote: ?> ?yes, I know Hawaii is convenient ? >?It's more than just convenient. ? On the ground only 3 places have good enough seeing conditions for a instrument that large, Hawaii, the ?Atacama desert in Chile, and Antarctica?. John K Clark Ja, and two of those locations are in the southern hemisphere, so they can?t see the farthest north targets. The Mauna Kea thirty meter will be able to peer up there. There are less desirable alternatives, such as Sierra de San Pedro Martir in Mexico, lower down. The Mexican government would like to see it placed there and it might have some advantages. Of course the environmentalists and religionistas will be there as well with their hands out, but that is the way it goes now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:12:13 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:12:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:32 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *?* > > > > ?>?There is a big difference between what we are doing here and what we > can do publicaly. Right? > > > > This is publicly. Everything we write here is wide open and the internet > never forgets. Every email should be assumed to be stored and hacked if it > is valuable to anyone. > > > > >?While it may be intellectually defensible to criticize religions and > cultures and ladies' hairdos, it can get downright dangerous to do so in > their faces? > > > > By all means. Ladies with funny hair won?t kill you, people in weird > cultures will not kill you. Of all the religions discussed on the > internet, one will sue you and one will kill you. Notice that neither gets > discussed much. > > > > >? We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with our > opinions. bill w? > > > > We are already on several hit lists. One of our own went to prison over > internet criticism of one of the two religions mentioned in the previous > comment. In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten > legal repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: > > > > ?? > > http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN > > > > Sheesh, how did we get here? > > > > spike > > > ?OK, I read it and it is kind of frightening. We need a lawyer. I > thought that advocating the overthrow of the USA by violence was the only > restriction on free speech except for inciting riots, etc. The latter is, > I suppose, what the Att. Gen is talking about. On that basis she could > prosecute Trump. > > ?When will people get the idea that free means free? Or that a handful of Muslims do not necessarily characterize the ideas of the other billion of them? Stimulus generalization gone berserk. bill w? > ? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:18:29 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:18:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?> ? > We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with our opinions. > ?If I'm on someone's hit list I estimate there is a 40% probability his name is ? Muhammad ? Something or Something Muhammad; at any rate I doubt that he's Amish. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:21:13 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:21:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: Response to John Clark: You are certainly right that most educated people do not have a high religious sense. All I am saying is that it is not incompatible. For years I have wondered about Wm F Buckley, and how such a smart man can be a Roman Catholic. However: I saw what breaking from the church (Methodist) did to my family and me, and it is not unlikely that some people stay in the church and avow religiosity just to avoid family difficulties. I still don't think that ALL intelligent people are nonreligious at their core. Personally I think old Ben was as atheist as they come. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 10 20:55:06 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:55:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> On 2015-12-10 17:43, Keith Henson wrote: > Re the list, L5 Society is mentioned as well. It's kind of amusing > how many of the transhuman causes I have been involved in. I remember reading about you in Ed Regis "The Great Mambo Chicken" as a teenager. I was very impressed. If one just keep on doing interesting stuff one ends up in timelines. > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT >> religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? Why does religion always get >> a free pass? > That's a really good question. In this case, it is probably conflated > with liberal quilt over the history of our culture dispossessing the > natives. There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. How many can make a good theological argument these days? The problem is that it is not enough to be good at pointing out theological problems, the other part also has to be able to make a cogent argument, otherwise it will just be an emotional response. So it is easier to stay away from it (like politics and sex - not a good topic for the thanksgiving dinner). I made some arguments here: http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/08/freezing-critique-privileged-views-and-cryonics/ about why religious views on immortality get a free pass that cryonics doesn't get. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 21:20:14 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:20:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] blasphemy again: was RE: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: <00aa01d13390$9099a2b0$b1cce810$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 William Flynn Wallace > wrote: ?> ?>?We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with our opinions. ?>?If I'm on someone's hit list ? I doubt that he's Amish. John K Clark This brings up an interesting question. The US attorney general threatens to bring prosecution for anti- Amish rhetoric that edges toward violence. If you make anti-Amish comments, then an Amish mob comes and attacks with military-grade weapons, but you survive, can you be prosecuted for inciting the violence? If a religion says it is afraid of you, then hires a bunch of extra security to watch you, then uses the bills from their security service as evidence that you are dangerous, isn?t that kind of the same principle? One buys the evidence against you with dollars, the other buys the evidence with bullets. Suppose you suggested that the Mennonites are not the religion of peace. Perhaps you said something unflattering about Jakob Ammann or drew a cartoon of Menno Simons. Are you to blame for pissing off the Amish? If you make disparaging comments towards a religion that does not respond with violence such as Pastafarian, then is that OK? And if a religion does respond with violence, then is speaking out against that belief not OK and not covered under the first amendment? So is it then the path to making blasphemy against one?s beliefs illegal as simple as murder? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 10 21:51:02 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:51:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> References: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> Message-ID: <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT >> religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? ... >...There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. How many can make a good theological argument these days? ... -- Anders Sandberg _______________________________________________ Meeeeeee, I can. I have been an atheist for over 30 years now, but I still remember how to do theological synthesis from my misspent youth. I still know the lines of reasoning, the basic assumptions, the tools of the trade. I did observe something interesting from the old days: those who can do the most effective theological synthesis (creating novel lines of reasoning in theological matters (there are such things)) are those who are not themselves believers. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 22:37:38 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:37:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Just curious, have any of you done psychedelics? Cuz then you might understand what I'm trying to say. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 00:01:06 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:01:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Just curious, have any of you done psychedelics? Cuz then you might > understand what I'm trying to say. > ?I would vehemently deny that any insights gained under the influence of > any drug is not obtainable while straight. bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 00:09:02 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:09:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> References: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 3:51 PM, spike wrote: > >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark > wrote: > > > >> ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT > >> religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? ... > > > >...There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. > How many can make a good theological argument these days? ... > -- > Anders Sandberg > _______________________________________________ > > Meeeeeee, I can. I have been an atheist for over 30 years now, but I still > remember how to do theological synthesis from my misspent youth. I still > know the lines of reasoning, the basic assumptions, the tools of the trade. > > I did observe something interesting from the old days: those who can do the > most effective theological synthesis (creating novel lines of reasoning in > theological matters (there are such things)) are those who are not > themselves believers. > > spike > ?I don't think we have to make any theological arguments. All we have to > do is to say that we are empiricists, so show me some concrete evidence of > angels and all the rest. As one cannot prove anything in religion, as it > is outside the realm of empiricism, then I'd say the two cannot argue at > all intelligently. > ?To me, and maybe this is really overly simplistic, epistemology breaks down into: Rationalism, Intuitionism, Empiricism, and Authoritarianism. ? ?Each can hold truths that are false or simply not applicable in any other system?. Rational theological arguments are meaningless in empiricism. Right? Spike? bill w > ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 23:29:08 2015 From: col.hales at gmail.com (colin hales) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:29:08 +1100 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> References: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> Message-ID: <566a0afd.61f8420a.85191.ffffec0e@mx.google.com> How many can make a good theological argument these days? ... -- Anders Sandberg Isn't "good theological argument" an oxymoron. Like "military intelligence". :) Colin -----Original Message----- From: "spike" Sent: ?11/?12/?2015 9:08 AM To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: Re: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy >... On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> ?Why is it OK to criticize somebody's beliefs about anything EXCEPT >> religion no matter how brain dead dumb it is? ... >...There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. How many can make a good theological argument these days? ... -- Anders Sandberg _______________________________________________ Meeeeeee, I can. I have been an atheist for over 30 years now, but I still remember how to do theological synthesis from my misspent youth. I still know the lines of reasoning, the basic assumptions, the tools of the trade. I did observe something interesting from the old days: those who can do the most effective theological synthesis (creating novel lines of reasoning in theological matters (there are such things)) are those who are not themselves believers. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 01:50:22 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:50:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: References: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> Message-ID: <003d01d133b6$4d036e70$e70a4b50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace >? ? ?Each can hold truths that are false or simply not applicable in any other system?. Rational theological arguments are meaningless in empiricism. Right? Spike? bill w Ja. I am only claiming to be able to create or synthesize lines of reasoning compatible with a certain narrow and closed system of which I am very familiar. I could not create any logical structure which would mean anything to Jews, to Catholics, to anything other than that one closed self-referential system. In that one closed system, I understand the underlying assumptions and understand why it is immune from objective questioning. That system is completely self-consistent and logical under the assumptions made by that system. To disprove that logic structure, one must look outside that closed system. >From an outside point of view, the whole logic structure makes no sense. Inside, it all makes perfect sense. It is self-referential as all hell, but in that system you don?t need to worry about the system being self-referential because it is all true. From outside, it is all false. Choose your point of view. When you do, choosing one with actual predictive power is power indeed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 02:41:57 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:41:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Well I would vehemently deny that any cure brought about by antibiotics isn't able to be produced by the immune system. But they sure do help. Try them. You're missing out on a portion of reality that is a SIGNIFICANTLY large amount of information I guarantee you won't get otherwise. Ask people here who have tripped. It's a qualitative experience that is very difficult to describe. I'll try: your sensory filters lessen a lot. You can perceive every lead on a tree. You can practically read someone's mind through their facial and body language. You see the innate patterns in everything. You look at a wall and in one second can tell where studs are from stress marks. You think about geopolitics and can immediately understand why this country did this thing. You find novel solutions for problems which escaped you before. You can directly perceive how the information in your mind is logically composed. You also hallucinate symmetry, the epitome of which is demonstrated by seeing symmetric fractals appear to complement natural patterns. Thus you also hallucinate symmetry on metaphorical patterns, and may think of cultural or social connections that do not really exist. As with all thought, you must be discerning. It's very worth trying once in life. Not doing it is like avoiding Thai curry because you think it might be too spicy. Choosing not to trip, I promise you're missing out, and I personally guarantee you will be thankful for the experience. Let me know if you need help figuring out what kind of person to ask for it. Psychedelics are serious. Some take them lightly. They will never receive the true graces of these chemicals. They exist to open the minds of our most intelligent citizens. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 03:50:29 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:50:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ambiguously evil triplets, was: RE: [Bulk] Re: The list is in the timeline Message-ID: <007801d133c7$152f87c0$3f8e9740$@att.net> I ran all six of Anders? cases with the ambiguously evil triplets. Here?s how to read these. You go across the rows: Alice says Alice is neutral, Alice says Betty is righteous, Alice says Carla is evil. Second line, Betty says Alice is evil, Betty says Betty is neutral, Betty says Carla is righteous (and so forth.) Case 1: Alice Betty Carla Alice 0 -1 1 Betty 1 0 -1 Carla -1 1 0 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 4 0 0 0 5 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 7 0 0 0 8 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 10 0 0 0 11 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 13 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 Zzzz? Case 2: Alice Betty Carla Alice 0 1 -1 Betty 1 0 -1 Carla -1 1 0 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 0 2 -2 2 4 -2 -2 3 0 2 -2 4 4 -2 -2 5 0 2 -2 6 4 -2 -2 7 0 2 -2 8 4 -2 -2 9 0 2 -2 10 4 -2 -2 11 0 2 -2 12 4 -2 -2 13 0 2 -2 14 4 -2 -2 15 0 2 -2 16 4 -2 -2 Case 3: Alice Betty Carla Alice 0 1 -1 Betty -1 0 1 Carla 1 0 -1 generation Alice Betty Carla 1 0 1 -1 2 -2 0 2 3 2 -2 0 4 2 2 -4 5 -6 2 4 6 2 -6 4 7 10 2 -12 8 -14 10 4 9 -6 -14 20 10 34 -6 -28 11 -22 34 -12 12 -46 -22 68 13 90 -46 -44 14 2 90 -92 15 -182 2 180 16 178 -182 4 That one is interesting: Ok, sure. But these are all cases where the triplets identify each other as either evil, good or neutral. But there is no reason why a person couldn?t be fractionally good or evil. So I created a sim with scroll bars in excel such that the sum of each triplet?s evaluations is zero, but they can be fractions. For this sim, we assume extremes of -1 to 1 for all three. It?s a fun toy. This gives some interesting chaotic-looking stuff: Alice Betty Carla Alice -0.09 0.47 -0.38 Betty -0.71 -0.09 0.8 Carla 0.7 -0.45 -0.25 generation Alice Betty Carla 0 -0.1 -0.07 0.17 1 0.1777 -0.1172 -0.0605 2 0.024869 0.121292 -0.14616 3 -0.19067 0.066545 0.124124 4 0.0568 -0.15146 0.094659 5 0.168685 -0.00227 -0.16642 6 -0.13006 0.154373 -0.02431 7 -0.11492 -0.06408 0.179 8 0.181141 -0.12879 -0.05235 9 0.038498 0.120284 -0.15878 10 -0.20001 0.07872 0.121293 11 0.047015 -0.15567 0.108658 12 0.182357 -0.01279 -0.16957 13 -0.12603 0.163165 -0.03713 14 -0.1305 -0.05721 0.187707 15 0.183758 -0.14065 -0.0431 16 0.053153 0.118422 -0.17157 Some of these patterns are just trippy-looking, and offer new insights into good and evil. It is even legal and you don?t risk hallucinating that you can fly, causing you to leap from tall buildings. Software available on request. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 49620 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.png Type: image/png Size: 137426 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 04:03:53 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:03:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] EvilTriplets.xlsm Message-ID: <008201d133c8$f41f41e0$dc5dc5a0$@att.net> This is an experiment. I don't know if the ExI-chat list can take enclosures. If so, save this as a macro-enabled spreadsheet, then adjust the six scroll bars to determine Alice, Betty and Carla's opinions of each others' degree of virtue. If cell H7 says "good" then that condition is compliant with our initial assumption that the virtue of all three triplets is between -1 and 1. Experiment! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: EvilTriplets.xlsm Type: application/vnd.ms-excel.sheet.macroenabled.12 Size: 40343 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 07:13:51 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:13:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, spike wrote: > In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten legal > repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: > > > > > http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN > Just to dial back the hyperbole a bit: what she's talking about goes well beyond criticism. She's objecting to calls for violent action - and to action based on said calls - against people who have not committed the offenses they are being blamed for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 07:29:51 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:29:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Try them. You're missing out on a portion of reality that is a > SIGNIFICANTLY large amount of information I guarantee you won't get > otherwise. Ask people here who have tripped. It's a qualitative experience > that is very difficult to describe. I've never used them, but I've tripped on life itself at times. The problem is, insights gained under such a state often turn out to be illusory, critically flawed, or so mundane that most who are not tripping would consider them obvious. You are left with the memory that you had some profound insight...but, in fact, all that you had was the memory of that, not the actual insight. Your memories yell and scream that you had the real thing, but those memories were manufactured by the drugs. External measurements show that no such insights were captured, even if you were specifically trying to defeat this illusion by recording your insights as clearly as possible so as to bypass any tainting of your memories. Of course, in most cases people do not do this, and so are only left with those fabricated memories. ("But wait", your self-rationalization goes, "I must have just not written/painted/spoke well enough, because I know it was profound even if these videos of me show nothing but banal. I just need to try again! And if that fails, again and again!" No. It wasn't profound. It was an illusion.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 07:54:12 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:54:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Farming, in space, on land, and in the sea/was Re: Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Dec 7, 2015 11:33 AM, "Tara Maya" wrote: >> > We might not need it for mining at all, as mining might be done in >> space; farming seems a much more likely use of a planet. >> >> That depends on how cheaply greenhouses on non-planetside colonies can be >> set up. >> > I imagine there'd be a huge initial investment. The thing to ask is how > soon -- if ever -- it would be profitable afterward. I'm optimistic it > would pay off in a matter of decades, but that's just me being optimistic. > Don't have any numbers or analysis to back up my hunch here. > I suspect, if it were to be done, minimum viable product and return on investment would not be the way to best do it. Instead, overkill - splurge, with the same sort of safety factors one puts on other man-rated space infrastructure. Adjust on the fly as population in space, and on-the-scene refinements, tease out exactly how much is needed, but never run near capacity if you can help it, just like everything else life support. (Save in rare cases, the first priority of any organism is to survive. This includes human organisms in a space colony: they will naturally put a high priority on anything they perceive as part of their life support. If there is a self-replenishing food supply, such as greenhouses or farms, that is likely to be included. This is one reason why giveaways to large food corporations tend to be less challenged than giveaways to large corporations in other industries, and why any large stable government believes that food security is part of how that government stays large and stable.) Farming on Earth benefits a lot from vast areas of farmable lands having >> already been set up for free - so far as human effort is concerned - but >> the price is wildly varying climate and soil conditions. Ask any farmer >> what they would give to be able to control the weather on their farm, >> timing the storms to the minute and setting the temperature to within a >> tenth of a degree Celsius, things that would be trivial (so long as they >> don't use more power and water than available) in an orbital greenhouse. >> > I think there are vast inefficiencies now in agriculture, especially > because of policies regarding farming and land use. In the US, this amounts > to farming areas that probably wouldn't be farmed, keeping prices high > (under the rubric of stabilization), and exporting surplus (often in a way > that disrupts markets elsewhere, especially in Africa). I'm not saying > eliminating all this would turn farming into a paragon of efficiency, > shaking out all problems. But it would help much and give a clearer idea of > the costs farming on Earth versus in space. > In theory, you're right. In practice, even just excluding data for purposes of a study, removing these problems may be impossible with Earth-based agriculture. Soil & climate are just the easiest ones to visualize, and as such the most widely agreed upon. By the way, kind of tangential, but have you read about sea vegetables? > That might actually a better way to get food than land farming -- for those > who can stand kelp and seaweed. (I don't much like the stuff, but the taste > can be hidden.:) > I have. Those have some of the problems of the universal bioprocessor I mentioned: starting with a very limited base product and trying to use it to substitute for a wide array of highly refined specialized product doesn't work so well, at least for food. Though if I'm wrong about that - if this problem can be overcome - aquaculture may be the way to develop solutions to this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 11 08:21:17 2015 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:21:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again References: <1214667250.740755.1449822077404.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1214667250.740755.1449822077404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 12/10/15, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?When will people get the idea that free means free?? Or that a handful of Muslims do not necessarily characterize the ideas of the other billion of them?? Stimulus generalization gone berserk. bill w? __________________________________________________ For many generations, we have been free. Since the ideas of the Enlightenment philosophers and the revolutions they inspired our ancestors to fight against their oppressors to the civil rights movement of our life times. But lately, the conflict between radical islamiscists and our government has been slowly stripping our freedoms away one by one. Now whenever we travel by air, we are required to submit to warrantless search and possible seizure of our possessions. Our emails and phone calls are logged for future examination, should we ever become suspect in a criminal investigation. Every time some lunatic goes on a killing spree, there are calls to take guns away from the people, even though several mass shootings have been stopped by ordinary citizens who were themselves armed. And now it appears that the AG wants to prosecute anybody whose criticism of muslims???sparks violence. The governments seem intent on preserving the peace at any cost, including our hard won way of life. In the? process, we have lost the color of freedom whilst preserving its rhetoric. I consider myself to be a tolerant individual: I enjoy eating hummus and I have a few muslim aquaintences although we don't have enough in common to be friends. The muslims I know are peaceful and if our politicians and the media can be trusted so are the vast majority of muslims. But being a student of history, I will say something that it has taught me. Something the muslim apologists either don't understand or are in denial of. And that is that the vast majority have never determined the direction of historical events. They can only ever add momentum to events already underway whose direction was determined by the desires of small groups of dedicated individuals. Take WW2 germany, for example. At its height, the Nazi party only ever comprised about 5% of the German population. The other 95% of germans were peaceful tolerant people. But when the tiny zealous minority wanted to exterminate Jews and take over the world, the vast majority of "good" Germans did not try to stop them. Instead they just complained about it but went along for the ride none-the-less. The other billion muslims don't matter. They are powerless and irrelevant. They are sheep that will follow the strongest shepherd even to the slaughter. It is the commited handful that will determine future history. Incidently, check out is being preached to the peaceful majority of muslims in Tenessee: http://shoebat.com/2015/04/28/so-called-moderate-muslim-imam-in-tennessee-advocates-extermination-of-all-other-religions/ Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 11:09:54 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:09:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 07:29, Adrian Tymes wrote: > The problem is, insights gained under such a state often turn out to be > illusory, critically flawed, or so mundane that most who are not tripping > would consider them obvious. You are left with the memory that you had some > profound insight...but, in fact, all that you had was the memory of that, > not the actual insight. Your memories yell and scream that you had the real > thing, but those memories were manufactured by the drugs. External > measurements show that no such insights were captured, even if you were > specifically trying to defeat this illusion by recording your insights as > clearly as possible so as to bypass any tainting of your memories. Of > course, in most cases people do not do this, and so are only left with those > fabricated memories. > Some people have had 'near-death' religious experiences that had such a huge emotional impact that it changed their life for ever after. The flood of emotions is so overwhelming that it rewrites their personality. These are life-changing events. Sometimes causing new careers, new relationships, moving home, rearranging their life. Some years ago there was one such person on Exi for a while. Similar effects sometimes happen with drug-induced experiences. These events are illusions, but not 'just' illusions. They really do change people dramatically. It is arguable, of course, whether the personality changes are improvements. But for the people involved there is no question that they believe they have changed for the better. For them life will never be the same again. (The writings of Paul in the New Testament indicate that he may have had such an experience). BillK From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 11:42:59 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:42:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015 2:31 AM, "Adrian Tymes" wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> Try them. You're missing out on a portion of reality that is a SIGNIFICANTLY large amount of information I guarantee you won't get otherwise. Ask people here who have tripped. It's a qualitative experience that is very difficult to describe. > > > I've never used them, but I've tripped on life itself at times. > ("But wait", your self-rationalization goes, "I must have just not written/painted/spoke well enough, because I know it was profound even if these videos of me show nothing but banal. I just need to try again! And if that fails, again and again!" No. It wasn't profound. It was an illusion.) Why does it have to be all or nothing? You can honestly believe that you can never have tasted chocolate, but claim that you get a similar experience of chocolate cake by imagining what it is like by comparison to other cake except for the unknown ingredient? As for the "illusion" ... prove that you have ever had an experience that wasn't an illusion. Abstinence from drugs is similar to abstinence from sex. You can be an expert on the reports of others, but you have no authority to speak on the subjective without actual context. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 11:59:16 2015 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:59:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: There is another view. In F1 racing it was once suddenly forbidden to use turbo-charged motors. I don't care much for that auto racing sport anyway, but non the less I felt some anger toward those who banned turbos. Many years later, F1 was better than ever, even without turbo-chargers. Now, some stupidity driven ban has been imposed over the telescope diameter. Perhaps it's time to employ longer exposition times and some clever reconstruction of what might going on to get just such a picture? On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > On Dec 11, 2015 2:31 AM, "Adrian Tymes" wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Will Steinberg < > steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Try them. You're missing out on a portion of reality that is a > SIGNIFICANTLY large amount of information I guarantee you won't get > otherwise. Ask people here who have tripped. It's a qualitative experience > that is very difficult to describe. > > > > > > I've never used them, but I've tripped on life itself at times. > > > ("But wait", your self-rationalization goes, "I must have just not > written/painted/spoke well enough, because I know it was profound even if > these videos of me show nothing but banal. I just need to try again! And > if that fails, again and again!" No. It wasn't profound. It was an > illusion.) > > Why does it have to be all or nothing? You can honestly believe that you > can never have tasted chocolate, but claim that you get a similar > experience of chocolate cake by imagining what it is like by comparison to > other cake except for the unknown ingredient? > > As for the "illusion" ... prove that you have ever had an experience that > wasn't an illusion. > > Abstinence from drugs is similar to abstinence from sex. You can be an > expert on the reports of others, but you have no authority to speak on the > subjective without actual context. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 14:42:40 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:42:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> Message-ID: <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, spike > wrote: In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten legal repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN >?Just to dial back the hyperbole a bit: what she's talking about goes well beyond criticism. She's objecting to calls for violent action - and to action based on said calls - against people who have not committed the offenses they are being blamed for? Ja OK. Well then, if the AG thinks it is illegal to suggest violent action towards believers, then it should be illegal to suggest violent action towards unbelievers, ja? If evidence surfaces of a religious leader quoting passages which contain texts such as ?strike at their necks? that would certainly qualify, one would think. If someone is found with a rally sign saying ?Behead those who insult Joseph Smith? for instance, that is clearly calling for violence against unbelievers. The next task involves creating a list of passages within well-known religious texts which very specifically call upon believers to commit acts of violence against unbelievers. Then our own AG must explain to religious leaders in this country that it is now illegal to quote those passages, which are found sprinkled liberally throughout the writings of some religious writers. Are we ready? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 15:19:10 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:19:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <004e01d13427$49b877d0$dd296770$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty ? >>? ("But wait", your self-rationalization goes, "I must have just not written/painted/spoke well enough, because I know it was profound even if these videos of me show nothing but banal. I just need to try again! And if that fails, again and again!" No. It wasn't profound. It was an illusion.) >?Why does it have to be all or nothing? Ja good question. Seems like there should be data somewhere on what happens if the experimenters drop 1 percent of the usual dose. What is ten millitrips? Nothing at all? How about 20? I think the military did some experiments with that to see if they could get prisoners to talk. All they managed to do is produce a bunch of useless hipsters. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 15:57:55 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:57:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004e01d13427$49b877d0$dd296770$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <004e01d13427$49b877d0$dd296770$@att.net> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 15:19, spike wrote: > Ja good question. Seems like there should be data somewhere on what happens > if the experimenters drop 1 percent of the usual dose. What is ten > millitrips? Nothing at all? How about 20? I think the military did some > experiments with that to see if they could get prisoners to talk. All they > managed to do is produce a bunch of useless hipsters. > Did you miss this? Quote: How LSD Microdosing Became the Hot New Business Trip Regular doses of acid have become the creativity enhancer of choice for some professionals By Andrew Leonard November 20, 2015 Also BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:08:30 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:08:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> Message-ID: The problem is, insights gained under such a state often turn out to be illusory, critically flawed, or so mundane that most who are not tripping would consider them obvious. You are left with the memory that you had some profound insight...but, in fact, all that you had was the memory of that, not the actual insight. Your memories yell and scream that you had the real thing, but those memories were manufactured by the drugs. External measurements show that no such insights were captured, even if you were specifically trying to defeat this illusion by recording your insights as clearly as possible so as to bypass any tainting of your memories. Of course, in most cases people do not do this, and so are only left with those fabricated memories. ---------------- My own little experience is telling: under the influence I had this insight: you can clean a tool with another tool! Wow! What an epiphany! When I came out of it I thought: you moron! How could it be any other way? A famous heroin-addicted drummer, Gene Krupa, from the 40s on, claimed that he performed better when high. His friends made recordings of his playing stoned and straight and let him listen. He admitted that he played better straight. Under many drugs things are just wonderful: skin senses are acute, making sex just heavenly; taste and smell are acute, making foods wonderful (and it also seems that it turns off the satiety factor, so we keep on eating because it continues to taste great); our thoughts take a hike into lala land, and we experience all kinds of different thoughts. And so on. I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that insights regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as Adrian says: nothing brilliant. Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when stoned. Of course you will hear claims otherwise. If Will's insights are so great and special, I invite him to share them with us. bill w On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:42 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again > > > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, spike wrote: > > In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten legal > repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: > > > http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN > > > > >?Just to dial back the hyperbole a bit: what she's talking about goes > well beyond criticism. She's objecting to calls for violent action - and > to action based on said calls - against people who have not committed the > offenses they are being blamed for? > > > > Ja OK. Well then, if the AG thinks it is illegal to suggest violent > action towards believers, then it should be illegal to suggest violent > action towards unbelievers, ja? If evidence surfaces of a religious leader > quoting passages which contain texts such as ?strike at their necks? that > would certainly qualify, one would think. If someone is found with a rally > sign saying ?Behead those who insult Joseph Smith? for instance, that is > clearly calling for violence against unbelievers. > > > > The next task involves creating a list of passages within well-known > religious texts which very specifically call upon believers to commit acts > of violence against unbelievers. Then our own AG must explain to religious > leaders in this country that it is now illegal to quote those passages, > which are found sprinkled liberally throughout the writings of some > religious writers. > > > > Are we ready? > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:10:40 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:10:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> Message-ID: The next task involves creating a list of passages within well-known religious texts which very specifically call upon believers to commit acts of violence against unbelievers. Then our own AG must explain to religious leaders in this country that it is now illegal to quote those passages, which are found sprinkled liberally throughout the writings of some religious writers. Are we ready? Spike ------------------ The Koran and the Torah will both be prohibited if we adhere strictly to these views. Unbelievers are to be killed. Plain as that. bill w On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The problem is, insights gained under such a state often turn out to be > illusory, critically flawed, or so mundane that most who are not tripping > would consider them obvious. You are left with the memory that you had > some profound insight...but, in fact, all that you had was the memory of > that, not the actual insight. Your memories yell and scream that you had > the real thing, but those memories were manufactured by the drugs. > External measurements show that no such insights were captured, even if you > were specifically trying to defeat this illusion by recording your insights > as clearly as possible so as to bypass any tainting of your memories. Of > course, in most cases people do not do this, and so are only left with > those fabricated memories. > ---------------- > My own little experience is telling: under the influence I had this > insight: you can clean a tool with another tool! Wow! What an epiphany! > When I came out of it I thought: you moron! How could it be any other way? > > A famous heroin-addicted drummer, Gene Krupa, from the 40s on, claimed > that he performed better when high. His friends made recordings of his > playing stoned and straight and let him listen. He admitted that he played > better straight. Under many drugs things are just wonderful: skin senses > are acute, making sex just heavenly; taste and smell are acute, making > foods wonderful (and it also seems that it turns off the satiety factor, so > we keep on eating because it continues to taste great); our thoughts take a > hike into lala land, and we experience all kinds of different thoughts. > And so on. > > I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that insights > regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as Adrian > says: nothing brilliant. > Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when > stoned. Of course you will hear claims otherwise. > > If Will's insights are so great and special, I invite him to share them > with us. > > bill w > > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:42 AM, spike wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On >> Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:32 AM, spike wrote: >> >> In the USA we had our own attorney general recently threaten legal >> repercussions against those who would criticize a culture: >> >> >> http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/loretta-lynch-actions-predicated-on-violent-talk-toward-musl#.uddAV5VNBN >> >> >> >> >?Just to dial back the hyperbole a bit: what she's talking about goes >> well beyond criticism. She's objecting to calls for violent action - and >> to action based on said calls - against people who have not committed the >> offenses they are being blamed for? >> >> >> >> Ja OK. Well then, if the AG thinks it is illegal to suggest violent >> action towards believers, then it should be illegal to suggest violent >> action towards unbelievers, ja? If evidence surfaces of a religious leader >> quoting passages which contain texts such as ?strike at their necks? that >> would certainly qualify, one would think. If someone is found with a rally >> sign saying ?Behead those who insult Joseph Smith? for instance, that is >> clearly calling for violence against unbelievers. >> >> >> >> The next task involves creating a list of passages within well-known >> religious texts which very specifically call upon believers to commit acts >> of violence against unbelievers. Then our own AG must explain to religious >> leaders in this country that it is now illegal to quote those passages, >> which are found sprinkled liberally throughout the writings of some >> religious writers. >> >> >> >> Are we ready? >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 16:50:17 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:50:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <004e01d13427$49b877d0$dd296770$@att.net> Message-ID: <003e01d13434$048824f0$0d986ed0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On 11 December 2015 at 15:19, spike wrote: > Ja good question. Seems like there should be data somewhere on what > happens if the experimenters drop 1 percent of the usual dose. What > is ten millitrips? Nothing at all? How about 20?... spike > >...Did you miss this? Quote: How LSD Microdosing Became the Hot New Business Trip Regular doses of acid have become the creativity enhancer of choice for some professionals By Andrew Leonard November 20, 2015 Also BillK _______________________________________________ Ja I did miss that. I don't follow it much. {8^D BillK, you and I have been on this list long enough that you already know where I will go with this. I am the classic L7, mayor of Squaresville on this sort of thing, consider fooling with any psychotic meds without a competent doctor's supervision a classic MOABI, mother of all bad ideas, dangerous as all hell, high risk low payoff venture, no charge for that, you're welcome. But I will entertain the notion that in reasonable doses there are meds which might enhance creativity. If we view it that way, the trippers of the 60s were screwing up by taking 10 times the reasonable dose. Bad consequences often followed. Well hell, imagine that. Fun insight from my misspent childhood in the 1970s: some of the kids were buying bottles of cough medicine at the drug store, cherry flavored, and pouring the whole bottle into a tall cup of Mountain Dew soda, and guzzling the entire concoction along with 5 no-doz caffeine tablets, also procured at the local drugstore. I have no firsthand experience but was told that was a fun thing to do. We knew of narcotics, but of all odd things, it never occurred to me that slamming an entire bottle of cough syrup and devouring absurd doses of caffeine was drug abuse. I would have identified smoking grass and whatever the hell it was that slew our local rock star Jim Morrison was drug abuse, but not cough syrup and caffeine. So my approach would be if you really think it is reasonable, find out what the dopers are doing and take about a twentieth of that, go see your doctor early and often, tell her what you are doing, and always be open to the idea of just leaving it alone, all of it. Living in our times is a trip. spike From giulio at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 17:33:59 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:33:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?VIDEO_=E2=80=93_Terasem_Colloquium_in_Second_Life?= =?utf-8?q?=2C_December_10=2C_2015?= Message-ID: The 2015 edition of the Terasem Annual Colloquium on the Law of Futuristic Persons, themed ?Moral and Legal Imperatives for Sentient AI? took place place in Second Life ? Terasem sim ? yesterday, December 10, 2015, with stellar speakers and content. Here is the full video recording of the event... http://turingchurch.com/2015/12/11/video-terasem-colloquium-in-second-life-december-10-2015/ From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 11 17:51:09 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:51:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> Message-ID: <566B0D0D.9080205@aleph.se> Never tried psychedelics, although I did spend much of the late 80s looking deep into fractals :-) They are on my to-do list. Being the typical dry researcher I have mostly read about their effects, especially where they adjoin my cognitive enhancement interests ("Anders, you are studying the *boring* enhancers!" as a noted psychedelic expert told me). My impressions are: * Seems to promote creativity by jostling the normal thought processes and creating wide integration for a while. This is a good thing in some people and some settings, and useless for others. There are plenty of examples of people actually having useful and valid insights, but we never hear anything about the other cases. * Mystical experiences are more common than one may think, and happens without drugs (or training) too. Most are not life altering (which is one of the saddest statements about the human condition ever: you suddenly *know* how the universe works, meet the Divine and have your ego oblitterated - and next morning you go back to your job, slightly happier). Some are, and those are the ones you hear about. * Recent studies on psilocybin and other psychedelics are very promising against depression. Also, it seems psilocybin causes a lasting increase in the openness big-5 personality trait. This is not necessarily a good thing: being too open can be impairing. * Overall, the whole area is understudied for stupid reasons. I expect there to be many low-hanging fruits research-wise. But self-reports from self-selected people are unreliable. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 11 17:59:12 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:59:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?VIDEO_=E2=80=93_Lord_Martin_Rees_lecture?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566B0EF0.8080500@aleph.se> Inspired by Giulio to post video: here is a video of Lord Martin Rees giving the 10 year anniversary lecture for the Oxford Martin School. http://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/videos/view/526 "Will technology's dark side eclipse humanity's bright future?" He answers that question in the first 10 seconds, then gets going with a clarification. Much of the content is unsurprising to people of this list, but when the Astronomer Royal talks genetic engineering, posthumans, existential risk and AI in the middle of the Sheldonian Theatre some progress has been made. He is still not a fan of cryonics, though :-) -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 17:59:15 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:59:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > You are certainly right that most educated people do not have a high > religious sense. All I am saying is that it is not incompatible. > ?The only way the two can coexist in the? ?same ? ?mind is if they are kept in strict airtight compartments so that the religious ideas and the intelligent ideas never have any contact with each other. Thus for 6 days a week the intelligent geologist deduces that the area above the layer of 359 million year old microfossils and below the layer of 299 million year old microfossils ? would be a good place to drill for oil, and then on Sunday sings the praises of God and a 6 thousand year old Earth. John k Clark ? > For years I have wondered about Wm F Buckley, and how such a smart man can > be a Roman Catholic. > > However: I saw what breaking from the church (Methodist) did to my family > and me, and it is not unlikely that some people stay in the church and avow > religiosity just to avoid family difficulties. I still don't think that > ALL intelligent people are nonreligious at their core. > > Personally I think old Ben was as atheist as they come. > > bill w > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 18:15:20 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:15:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > ?I would vehemently deny that any insights gained under the influence of > any drug is not obtainable while straight. > ?I would say that unless you can convince someone not under drugs that the insight you gained while under drugs has value it isn't really a insight. And I am certain the Thirty Meter Telescope could give us more insight as to the nature of Dark Energy and Dark Matter than LSD can, but religious nincompoops (sorry for the redundancy) won't let us build it, and that makes me mad. It should make all of us mad. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 11 18:48:38 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:48:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] EvilTriplets.xlsm In-Reply-To: <008201d133c8$f41f41e0$dc5dc5a0$@att.net> References: <008201d133c8$f41f41e0$dc5dc5a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <566B1A86.4030807@aleph.se> Ah, this is fun! Some mathematical notes: The system is essentially x(n+1)=A*x(n),where x(n) is the vector of the triplets' states in generation n, and A is a matrix with their weightings. The sum of each row of A is 0. This means that we can view the system as defined by three vectors lying on the plane defined by x*[1 1 1]=0. So there are 6 degrees of freedom to play with, like Spike did with his scrollbars. If A has eigenvalues lambda_i and eigenvectors Lambda_i (i=1,2,3) then it is easy to see that they are invariant: A*Lambda_i=lambda_i*Lambda_i. So there are potentially three invariant directions, but eigenvalues can coincide of course. If you start at some random state x it can be expressed as a sum of eigenvectors: x = c1*Lambda_1+c2*Lambda_2+c3*Lambda_3. As the system updates, the vector that has the biggest real part of the eigenvalue dominates: if this is positive you get exponential growth, if it is negative you get exponential decay. The imaginary part determines how much things oscillate: if it is nonzero there will be jumping. If it is small you get sinusoidal oscillations. A pure imaginary one makes a cyclic pattern. So by this argument we can tell what the eventual distribution will be: it will be a multiple of the largest eigenvector (whether a positive or negative multiple depends on starting value), possibly with some oscillation going on. The next question is what conditions lead to different behavior. We can rotate our coordinate system so Alice is [+1,0,-1] , giving us four degrees of freedom. Still one too much to visualize. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From bbenzai at yahoo.com Fri Dec 11 18:38:30 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:38:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Zuckerberg just bought 26 days of world peace? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566B1826.2070106@yahoo.com> Tara Maya wrote: "farming seems a much more likely use of a planet" This depends, I suppose, on what you see the future of the human race being. I see a future, if we play our cards right and are moderately lucky, where we successfully and comprehensively transcend biology. In that case, everything looks totally different. People are software, resources are matter (virtually any matter) and energy. Planets are a vast waste of space, where enormous amounts of matter are tied up doing nothing more than keeping a crust together, providing some gravity, and posing a continual threat to anyone on their surface (tectonics, weather, vulcanism, etc.). Oh, and presenting a quite large barrier to travel (you need lots and lots of energy to escape those gravitational wells). On the other hand, planets, if dismantled, represent a mind-boggling abundance of resources, enought to support quintillions of intelligent minds, or even more. Including the kind of superintelligent minds that biology could never produce. If, on the other hand, you see a fully or largely biological future, then planets are pretty much indispensable, protecting the weak fragile organisms from solar weather, extremes of temperature, etc. In that case, yes, maybe farming does seem a more likely use for a planet. But it's not really a future I have much interest in. In my opinion, if that's our future, we've failed, big time, and fully deserve our eventual and inevitable extinction. Biology won't last forever, and the average lifespan of a single biological individual will still be tragically short, no matter what life-extension technologies we come up with. Note that I'm calling a few thousand years (assuming phenomenal luck) tragically short. Software beings could potentially live for billions of years, and easily weather events such as the bloating of our sun, asteroid strikes, coronal mass ejections, maybe even nearby supernovae. Things that would completely and permanently destroy biological beings. You say you're an optimist. I see your vision as pessimism. Remaining biological would be throwing away an inconcievably vast and wonderful future potential. So much so that I suspect biological beings can barely even begin to imagine it. Ben Zaiboc From bbenzai at yahoo.com Fri Dec 11 18:44:07 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:44:07 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566B1977.3030208@yahoo.com> Spike explained: "Tara one of your ancestors could have been a wartime rape victim" Where 'could have been', given what we know about human nature, probably means 'almost certainly was'. And I'm not sure about the need to add the condition 'wartime'. People can be, and have been, and are, rape victims in the most peaceful of times as well as in wartime. Sorry to be blunt about it, but while we can't shape our own minds, we'll remain subject to our evolved natures. That includes some pretty nasty things. I'm sure there are murderers, rapists, and victims, among my own ancestors as well as yours, and everyone else's. We have a long way to go, but I do think we have made a start. Ben Zaiboc From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:07:09 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:07:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: snip > There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. > How many can make a good theological argument these days? That's a good point. I tend to bypass theology for biology, particularly evolutionary psychology and reply to theology questions with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" The tentative answer is that religions are xenophobic memes. Some xenophobic meme seems to be required to dehumanize the people on the other side during wars. Why wars? Population growth in excess of economic growth. You simply don't have wars unless the population is anticipating bad times a-coming. The selection for psychological mechanisms leading to wars _when appropriate_ has been intense, as well as the accurate detection of "when appropriate." It does genes no good to take a huge risk of being wiped out while fighting unless the alternative is worse. First pass simple model, war is better (from the genes viewpoint) when facing a 50% starvation by something like 37%. Same kind of war, same viewpoint, it's 45% worse for genes if starvation is not in your future. These are strong selection drivers! The genetic payoff matrix (from the viewpoint of genes) depends on the young women of the defeated tribe being taken as mates. There is a graphic description of this custom in Numbers, chapter 31, verses 7-18. (End note 11, http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296) So part of the answer to the question of why people have religions at all seems to be that the young women of a defeated tribe were considered booty--for long enough to have genetic consequences. This set up a selection for behavior (i.e., genes behind the psychological mechanisms) that we see as wars and religions. > The problem is > that it is not enough to be good at pointing out theological problems, > the other part also has to be able to make a cogent argument, otherwise > it will just be an emotional response. So it is easier to stay away from > it (like politics and sex - not a good topic for the thanksgiving dinner). The EP selection argument for wars and religions is does not seem to be a good dinner topic either. Not very many people have the background to grok it, not even here. > I made some arguments here: > http://blog.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/2014/08/freezing-critique-privileged-views-and-cryonics/ > about why religious views on immortality get a free pass that cryonics > doesn't get. The meta question here is why religions get the free pass. I certainly am not going to argue with you on the point that they do. Claim it's religion and they get away with outright criminal activities, corruption of the courts and governments. This is something I have experienced personally. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:20:15 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:20:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <1214667250.740755.1449822077404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1214667250.740755.1449822077404.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1214667250.740755.1449822077404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015 12:36 AM, "The Avantguardian" wrote: > Incidently, check out is being preached to the peaceful majority of muslims in Tenessee: > > http://shoebat.com/2015/04/28/so-called-moderate-muslim-imam-in-tennessee-advocates-extermination-of-all-other-religions/ There appears to be some question whether that actually happened, or was made up by an openly anti-non-Christians news source irritated by the existence of a large mosque in what they had hoped was a solidly Christian city (and thus, a solid base of customers who would not question that source's bias). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:23:21 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:23:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015 3:12 AM, "BillK" wrote: > Some people have had 'near-death' religious experiences that had such > a huge emotional impact that it changed their life for ever after. Which is relevant to psychedelics how? Near-death experiences can give a new perspective, sure, but no illusion of enhanced sensory capability nor inexplicable but supposedly profound insights. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Dec 11 20:14:48 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:14:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566B2EB8.7020802@aleph.se> On 2015-12-11 20:07, Keith Henson wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > snip >> There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. >> How many can make a good theological argument these days? > That's a good point. I tend to bypass theology for biology, > particularly evolutionary psychology and reply to theology questions > with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" But notice you have now given a walk-over victory to your religious interlocutor. You are not engaging with them about the issue at hand. It is a bit like me responding to your argument with "Why do people use evolutionary psychology?" and then start analysing the culture of western academia. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 20:39:21 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:39:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: > > ?> ? > You are certainly right that most educated people do not have a high > religious sense. All I am saying is that it is not incompatible. > ?The only way the two can coexist in the? ?same ? ? mind is if they are kept in strict airtight compartments so that the religious ideas and the intelligent ideas never have any contact with each other. Thus for 6 days a week the intelligent geologist deduces that the area above the layer of 359 million year old microfossils and below the layer of 299 million year old microfossils ? would be a good place to drill for oil, and then on Sunday sings the praises of God and a 6 thousand year old Earth. Or another way than compartmentalizing: In my case, I was soso on religion (said of all Episcopalians) until I went to college, and became rather evangelical - even thought about the ministry or even foreign missions (the ultimate sacrifice at the Baptist college and the one getting you the most campus prestige). But I went into grad school, etc. Taught Sunday school to older adults, was choir leader in the evenings, substitute organist, member of the administrative board, tithed our GROSS income, and so on. When I got to about 30 I realized that I just did not believe much of it, esp. the magical parts. I split from the church, got divorced from a serious Baptist, and my attitudes have increasingly moved away from religion of any sort. I do retain much of what Jesus said re forgiveness and other moral philosophies, not that much, like the Golden Rule, had not been said by earlier people. Maybe what happened was that my brain finally matured. It is known that it can take up to age 25 or even longer in higher IQ people for the neocortex to finally mature. Thus once I had full control of my reasoning powers and applied them to what I was teaching in Sunday school, it just all fell apart. I do not hate or despise religion or the people who practice it. I do view them as deluded or, as you say, compartmentalized. I do admit to being at least slightly puzzled at the hostility that many religious people have towards atheists. Perhaps they are ignorant of or deny the studies showing atheists at approximately the same level of moral development. We now have people in the news saying they won't deal with anyone, like the Asian convenience store owners, who aren't Christian. Of course this is far from a Christian attitude, supporting the charge of hypocrisy they are often tagged with and richly deserve. bill w On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Dec 11, 2015 3:12 AM, "BillK" wrote: > > Some people have had 'near-death' religious experiences that had such > > a huge emotional impact that it changed their life for ever after. > > Which is relevant to psychedelics how? Near-death experiences can give a > new perspective, sure, but no illusion of enhanced sensory capability nor > inexplicable but supposedly profound insights. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 20:50:33 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:50:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2015 11:31 PM, "Adrian Tymes" wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:41 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> Try them. You're missing out on a portion of reality that is a SIGNIFICANTLY large amount of information I guarantee you won't get otherwise. Ask people here who have tripped. It's a qualitative experience that is very difficult to describe. > > > I've never used them, but I've tripped on life itself at times. > > The problem is, insights gained under such a state often .... External measurements show that no such insights were captured Measure how? > ("But wait", your self-rationalization goes, "I must have just not written/painted/spoke well enough, because I know it was profound even if these videos of me show nothing but banal. I just need to try again! And if that fails, again and again!" No. It wasn't profound. It was an illusion.) According to who? If I get a simple insight like "tastes are arbitrary", which sounds banal if you are listening for banal... but it hits me in the amygdala-cortical circuits hard enough... I just might come out less judgmental than I used to be. For real, not in some cortex-only way. How was that kind of outcome measured? Also, zetetically: what would it take for you to change your mind? (Yes, that's a double meaning there ;) ) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:02:24 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:02:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: <566B2EB8.7020802@aleph.se> References: <566B2EB8.7020802@aleph.se> Message-ID: I will mention the elephant in the room. Religions that promise an eternal life in the hereafter of joy and reconnection with lost loved ones... Those practically sell themselves. And with Abrahamic religions, faith, hope and charity are a pole of proper behavior... at least charity to those who worship the right hairy sky guy. The desire to be comforted is A Big Deal. The retreat to commitment (HT Bartley) manifests as static patterns of value.(HT Pirsig)... And (duh) value is valuable, and quality (or utility) is in the eye of the beholder. On Dec 11, 2015 12:16 PM, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > On 2015-12-11 20:07, Keith Henson wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Anders Sandberg >> wrote: >> >> snip >> >>> There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. >>> How many can make a good theological argument these days? >>> >> That's a good point. I tend to bypass theology for biology, >> particularly evolutionary psychology and reply to theology questions >> with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" >> > > But notice you have now given a walk-over victory to your religious > interlocutor. You are not engaging with them about the issue at hand. It is > a bit like me responding to your argument with "Why do people use > evolutionary psychology?" and then start analysing the culture of western > academia. > > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:04:40 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:04:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015 12:51 PM, "Michael Butler" wrote: > On Dec 10, 2015 11:31 PM, "Adrian Tymes" wrote: > > The problem is, insights gained under such a state often .... External measurements show that no such insights were captured > > Measure how? A typical method might involve capturing the insights on video or writing them down, then have third parties analyze the results vs. what you do in a similar span of time under the same conditions but not tripping. Just like most scientific experiments to measure personal performance under different conditions. > If I get a simple insight like "tastes are arbitrary", which sounds banal if you are listening for banal... but it hits me in the amygdala-cortical circuits hard enough... I just might come out less judgmental than I used to be. For real, not in some cortex-only way. But then the insight isn't "tastes are arbitrary" but "these tastes are unrelated to the qualities and outcomes you are judging toward, so don't judge based on those tastes". > Also, zetetically: what would it take for you to change your mind? > > (Yes, that's a double meaning there ;) ) Evidence that I can trust. Which in this case would probably involve my own personal observations - as in, ones you can not directly fabricate. Yes, that means that arguing this point to change my opinion is pretty much pointless. The same could apply to your position, except that there is reason to believe your own memories and experiences here may be less than correct. Still, it is your choice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:12:39 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:12:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Actually "microdosing" LSD is becoming in vogue. There's an article in The Atlantic or something like that about its prevalence in silicon valley. This is a good resource for lists of effects: https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page It's new and I've been pleasantly surprised at the accurate effect descriptions. And of course http://www.erowid.org is the bible for psychoactive enthusiasts who care about what substance and what dose they're taking. I've met a sad amount of people who have taken random, unknown pills or powder from strangers. Which is troubling. I'm also not an advocate of marijuana use beyond very moderate, perhaps monthly or less, consumption, or for medical reasons. It terrifies me that a large portion of the world population uses a dissociative psychedelic cannabinoid constantly enough to gain significant tolerance. I believe the effects amplify gang violence by dissociating the user from feelings of reality. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Dec 11 21:28:18 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:28:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: ?> ?I would vehemently deny that any insights gained under the influence of any drug is not obtainable while straight. ?>?I would say that unless you can convince someone not under drugs that the insight you gained while under drugs has value it isn't really a insight. ? John K Clark I propose an experiment that is safe, perfectly legal and doesn?t even cost anything. Get your favorite music track, not rap but something with a melody you know by heart (old time crooners work fine for this and even Christmas music.) Play it thru your headphones or earbuds, turned up loud, and sing along with it. Record yourself with your phone or video camera. Oh you sound good, ja? Mister Rock Star you are. Now play it back. Oy vey, not so crooney shmooney now, ja? You didn?t listen to your silly self more than once? Not even more than a few uncomfortable seconds? Repeat the experiment with only one earbud, turned way down low but audible. Better? That whole notion of psychedelics offering new insights, I would need a lot of evidence for that. I would believe it makes a prole believe she is having new and wonderful insights, but if carefully recorded at the time, I suspect the result would be as cringe-worthy as the headphone experiment. If one took a tenth the normal dose and could demonstrate some positive effect, I suppose that would be analogous to singing a song with one earbud turned low. Some singers do that (the earbud I meant (well ok, some do the dope too, but I meant during the recording session the one earbud.)) Of course I am no expert on these matters, just sayin?. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 22:54:02 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:54:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> Message-ID: I just don't understand particularly why you would believe that besides cultural bias. Do you know what receptors psychedelics act on? Do you have evidence that the insights would be poorer than "sobriety"? Sobriety a diverse collection of mental states, and drugs add another state. What makes whatever mental state you were in, not on drugs, when you gained some insight, valid? Isn't the state of your brain right now a fairly stochastic phenomenon which may or may not produce valid insights? Sobriety is full of illusion too. I honestly suggest you go try some. Another effect of psychoactive you CANNOT have without them is: being able to look at receptor affinities and compare effects. If one takes two drugs with different affinities for the 5HT1 or GABAB or CB2 receptor, then one can compare effects and gain insight on what it feels like to have sets of those particular receptors active. It is very valuable in neuroscience. And there's a long history of enthusiastic scientists using themselves as subjects. I ought to stop self incriminating though. So, this is all theoretical. Or a joke. Or both. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 23:27:46 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:27:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015 4:44 PM, "spike" wrote: > I propose an experiment that is safe, perfectly legal and doesn?t even cost anything. Get your favorite music track, The music/singing metaphor is a good example. I propose another. Imagine a simple 2-stroke gasoline engine. Like any internal combustion engine, it runs on air+fuel. The enduring beauty of these engines is their simplicity ( if not also their manufacturer ) Now consider the effects on performance of various gasoline+oil mixtures. Too rich and you produce a giant blue cloud with not enough power. Too lean and the engine runs very hot, ultimately fatiguing the metal and leading to mechanical failure. I have no experience with leaded gasoline, but old gas with insufficient octane has a particular nuance on performance. Also are the additives such as so-called fuel stabilizer or ethanol. These are all variables regarding fuel. There are also humidity, temperature, and particulant/debris affecting the quality and performance of the requisite air. Now draw analogies from this simple engine to the brain. Different chemicals, but with good enough approximations on performance impact. Does the engine need kerosene or deisel running through it? Of course not. Would it be interesting to adjust the oil mixture to compensate for the alteration of the gasoline with kerosene? For those who work on engines it probably would be, even if their best guess is that it would be dumb to try it - until the experiment it's just competing opinions no matter how well informed they may be. I'm not sure many revelations start this way, but much entertainment begins with "hold my beer, watch this" > Of course I am no expert on these matters, just sayin?. Nobody is an expert until they do it for 10,000 hours right? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Dec 12 00:08:23 2015 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:08:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <0C7524D7-F053-460B-AA62-7D7CEE2DE41B@alumni.virginia.edu> > On Dec 11, 2015, at 4:12 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I believe the effects [of regular cannabis use] amplify gang violence by dissociating the user from feelings of reality. > Will, I've been with you for most of this thread. However, the above is bullshit and borderlines on Prohibitionist propaganda. (If anything, alcohol would be the main culprit here.) Furthermore, there is no evidence that our species requires any catalyst for amplifying violence. We seem to do it all-too-well by default. -Henry From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 00:27:51 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:27:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [Bulk] Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <0C7524D7-F053-460B-AA62-7D7CEE2DE41B@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <0C7524D7-F053-460B-AA62-7D7CEE2DE41B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: I dunno, I've watched a lot of stuff about gangs and paid special attention to the way weed is smoked and portrayed and I know what strong weed feels like and I really feel like the disconnection from other people that high THC content weed brings would make it easier to be violent to others. I've thought about this a lot; I'm not saying weed causes violence. I'm saying violent scenarios are easier to not feel as morally bad about if you're high. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 12 00:33:58 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:33:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> Message-ID: <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> On 2015-12-11 23:54, Will Steinberg wrote: > > I just don't understand particularly why you would believe that > besides cultural bias. Do you know what receptors psychedelics act > on? Do you have evidence that the insights would be poorer than > "sobriety"? > Sorry, but the onus is on you to give evidence for your claims. The simplest explanation is that nothing much happens. Now, I happen to agree with you to some extent, but I am travelling so I cannot easily bring up my research library on drug effects on creativity. But receptors are the wrong level to look for support of creativity enhancement - there are plenty of serotonin receptors that merely handle blood pressure and gut functions. > Another effect of psychoactive you CANNOT have without them is: being > able to look at receptor affinities and compare effects. If one takes > two drugs with different affinities for the 5HT1 or GABAB or CB2 > receptor, then one can compare effects and gain insight on what it > feels like to have sets of those particular receptors active. It is > very valuable in neuroscience. And there's a long history of > enthusiastic scientists using themselves as subjects. > That also require doing proper science: record systematically what happens and measure as objectively as possible. This is very hard with psychedelics and creativity each, and even worse in combination. It can be done, but it is usually not done. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 00:55:58 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:55:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:51 AM, Michael Butler wrote: > > And you know what? That is PERFECTLY FINE with me, because the specific > terrestrial location of a specific scientific instrument of this type > almost certainly DOES NOT MATTER if science is, well... what it claims to > be and what I think IT is. > > Butthurt about losing this court battle? After a certain point, it's > indistinguishable to me from whining. > > "Let the wookiee win." > > Sure, if you're defending scientific culture and are worried about > idiocracy and the possibility that the wookies ARE WINNING, then (re)act. > > But really, culturally, I think this is small potatoes and I admit I LIKE > it when colonial expropriators get one in the eye occasionally. It's an > underdog thing. Doubtless a slight flaw in my character. > ### Seriously? So we, the good people paying taxes and contributing to learned societies so that a bit of science could be done are "colonial expropriators"? The fuckwit assholes who use the weaknesses of our legal system to extort money under the guise of protecting religious feelings are the "underdog"? And you applaud it when the greatness of the Western civilization, the wondrous quest for truth is being trampled by a coalition of stone age crooks and politically correct liberal elite crooks? Well, I am... disappointed, for lack of a better word. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 00:59:33 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:59:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:50 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > While it may be intellectually defensible to criticize religions and > cultures and ladies' hairdos, it can get downright dangerous to do so in > their faces. We all might be on somebody's hit list if we go public with > our opinions. > ### That's why if you are on somebody's hit list, you send the Marines and hit them until there is nobody left to keep a list going. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:03:19 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:03:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. But I > do think the psychically significant and powerful nature of a sacred space > provides a lot of insight into the universe...maybe not in the same way as > a telescope. The point is that the cthonic nature of the sacred space > means it cannot be moved. It derives its power from its long-standing > location. > ### I do care that the telescope gets built. I do care about property rights, too. Do the chthonic believers have ownership in fee simple? If not, it's none of their business what the owners of the place use it for. If you want to protect what is sacred to you, buy it. Otherwise, get lost. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:32:13 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:32:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2015-12-11 20:07, Keith Henson wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> >> snip >>> There is also a fundamental problem with lack of tools for criticism. >>> How many can make a good theological argument these days? >> That's a good point. I tend to bypass theology for biology, >> particularly evolutionary psychology and reply to theology questions >> with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" > > But notice you have now given a walk-over victory to your religious > interlocutor. You are not engaging with them about the issue at hand. That's true. I must admit that I have not engaged in a theological argument in so long (decades at least) that I am not sure I would recognize one if it came up and said, "Hello." Perhaps that's an overstatement, but I seldom get involved, no more than I get involved in discussions of shades of lipstick or the latest rock bands. I have not been paying enough attention to the development of this thread. > It is a bit like me responding to your argument with "Why do people use > evolutionary psychology?" and then start analysing the culture of > western academia. That might be kind of interesting. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:38:45 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:38:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:21 AM, The Avantguardian < avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote: > Incidently, check out is being preached to the peaceful majority of > muslims in Tenessee: > > > http://shoebat.com/2015/04/28/so-called-moderate-muslim-imam-in-tennessee-advocates-extermination-of-all-other-religions/ > ### I am very strongly opposed to violence against innocent humans. These innocent Muslims could very well become targets of vicious violence by the usual suspects, Christian religious fanatics, atheists and the like. I would say, we need to protect this imam's flock. There are safe places in the wilderness of Alaska, far away from the teeming hordes of anti-Muslim fanatics. Let's build, at government's expense, comfortable summer camps, well-protected by barbed wire, and transfer the hapless would-be exterminators of all other religions there. Not all Muslims of course, just those who willingly participate in activities, such as materially contributing to the overthrow the US government and the slaughter of infidels, however tangentially, that could get them on other people's hit lists. It's for their own safety. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:43:14 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:43:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: To be fair, that looks like a pretty nuts right wing site. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:44:16 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:44:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The list is in the timeline and Religious Idiocy In-Reply-To: <003d01d133b6$4d036e70$e70a4b50$@att.net> References: <5669E6AA.9040009@aleph.se> <00d301d13394$dde258b0$99a70a10$@att.net> <003d01d133b6$4d036e70$e70a4b50$@att.net> Message-ID: *Choose your point of view.* * When you do, choosing one with actual predictive power is power indeed.* * spikeThe problem here is that empiricism is a hard sell, believe it or not. You've seen it in the news re climate change and many others. When there is a conflict between religious beliefs and science, science loses. I've seen it over and over in psych 101 - they are sceptical of any findings that contradict common sense and other folk lore. They love technology and other applications of science, of course, but fail to generalize the important of hard facts to their opinions. More than one study has shown that 101 students basically leave the course the same as when they were tested at the beginning of the course. As sad fact - their brains are only going to be mature years after they leave college and have forgotten most of what they learned. bill w (dunno why some of this is faded)* On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 7:50 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *>?* ? > > > > ?Each can hold truths that are false or simply not applicable in any > other system?. Rational theological arguments are meaningless in > empiricism. > > Right? Spike? > > bill w > > > > > > Ja. I am only claiming to be able to create or synthesize lines of > reasoning compatible with a certain narrow and closed system of which I am > very familiar. I could not create any logical structure which would mean > anything to Jews, to Catholics, to anything other than that one closed > self-referential system. In that one closed system, I understand the > underlying assumptions and understand why it is immune from objective > questioning. > > > > That system is completely self-consistent and logical under the > assumptions made by that system. To disprove that logic structure, one > must look outside that closed system. > > > > From an outside point of view, the whole logic structure makes no sense. > Inside, it all makes perfect sense. It is self-referential as all hell, > but in that system you don?t need to worry about the system being > self-referential because it is all true. From outside, it is all false. > > > > Choose your point of view. > > > > When you do, choosing one with actual predictive power is power indeed. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 12 01:37:28 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:37:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> Message-ID: <01c701d1347d$aa448a70$fecd9f50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 2:54 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >?I just don't understand particularly why you would believe that besides cultural bias?Do you have evidence that the insights would be poorer than "sobriety"? Ja, plenty of it: I have never seen a stoned person produce a wonderful insight, solve a complicated equation, write a stunning algorithm, make any scientific breakthrough while stoned. I have seen stoners feel as if they were a hero while stoned, but not actually being a hero while stoned. I have seen stoners and drunks do some appalling acts of stupidity while stoned or drunk. One of my own former HS classmates murdered his own twin brother, not during an argument or dispute, but rather just freaked out (I wasn?t there, just heard about it.) Tim and Tom Thompson. Tim died, Tom went to the big house. >? I honestly suggest you go try some. Thanks Will; I honestly ain?t going there. Not now, not later. I might smoke some grass someday, long after all my life?s decisions are far behind me and one could scarcely tell if I made some poor judgments. Perhaps for my 80th birthday or something. I confess to some curiosity over that for which so many of my peers sacrificed their critical young years, allowing the squares to get the hole shot in the old race. >?I ought to stop self incriminating though. So, this is all theoretical. Or a joke. Or both? Ja no worries Will. I will read your book. Or rather your summaries have told me all I really wanted to know about that topic but was afraid to ask. I agree that people who experiment with this kind of thing do a service to humanity. Somebody somewhere has to try everything, then record what happened. I can easily imagine allowing terminal patients to use these things. They have little to lose. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 01:53:22 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:53:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > To be fair, that looks like a pretty nuts right wing site. > ?To be fair, the Torah contains much the same thing as the Koran, but Jews and Christians don't talk about it. If asked Christians deny believing in whatever parts of the Old Testament they object to and say it has been rendered obsolete by what Jesus taught. I have not asked a Jewish person about it, but would if I knew one. bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:07:33 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:07:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> Message-ID: <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2015, at 4:33 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> On 2015-12-11 23:54, Will Steinberg wrote: >> I just don't understand particularly why you would believe that besides cultural bias. Do you know what receptors psychedelics act on? Do you have evidence that the insights would be poorer than "sobriety"? >> > Sorry, but the onus is on you to give evidence for your claims. The simplest explanation is that nothing much happens. > > Now, I happen to agree with you to some extent, but I am travelling so I cannot easily bring up my research library on drug effects on creativity. > > But receptors are the wrong level to look for support of creativity enhancement - there are plenty of serotonin receptors that merely handle blood pressure and gut functions. >> Another effect of psychoactive you CANNOT have without them is: being able to look at receptor affinities and compare effects. If one takes two drugs with different affinities for the 5HT1 or GABAB or CB2 receptor, then one can compare effects and gain insight on what it feels like to have sets of those particular receptors active. It is very valuable in neuroscience. And there's a long history of enthusiastic scientists using themselves as subjects. >> > > That also require doing proper science: record systematically what happens and measure as objectively as possible. This is very hard with psychedelics and creativity each, and even worse in combination. It can be done, but it is usually not done. I've used psychedelics. A big problem is advocates (of their use to boost creativity) all too often rely on self-reporting. And like a drunk or high person playing a musical instrument (or trying to be funny) -- which I've been on both ends of -- your mileage may vary. I know mine did. ;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:09:56 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:09:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <01c701d1347d$aa448a70$fecd9f50$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <01c701d1347d$aa448a70$fecd9f50$@att.net> Message-ID: But Spike, have you ever seen smart people do drugs? There were quite a bit at the school I went to, it's one of the top 5 in the country. Lots of kids I know who dropped acid are now working in consulting, labs, etc. Honestly if you are gonna choose something to take at 80, make it psychedelics, not pot. Pot is ok, fun, goofy, lame insights. Psychedelics will light up your brain with the seething foaming fractal nature of reality, everything becomes a metaphor for everything else, lights dance, you see new colors, etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:36:53 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:36:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57CF674D-0A34-46B6-9D8C-192400F00B01@gmail.com> On Dec 11, 2015, at 6:20 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Your mileage might become a foreign hellscape that takes a thousand mental years to escape, yes! It's very hard to prescribe psychedelics because of their innate chaotic effects. But I think that's a fun part of the game. > Trading notes with others in this led me to believe otherwise. Similar systems seem to be impact and our brains are not that much different than yours in this respect. > They've helped me become comfortable with the fact that there is no ultimate truth. Not to undermine truth seeking, you just can never get it all. > I don't know about that. Anyhow, it hasn't led to believe any idea about mountain gods is literally true or that religious edicts based on such should guide research policy. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:38:08 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:38:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: They've helped me become comfortable with the fact that there is no ultimate truth. Not to undermine truth seeking, you just can never get it all. And you think that this is a profundity that you would have never discovered unless you had tripped? Really? bill w On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Your mileage might become a foreign hellscape that takes a thousand mental > years to escape, yes! It's very hard to prescribe psychedelics because of > their innate chaotic effects. But I think that's a fun part of the game. > > They've helped me become comfortable with the fact that there is no > ultimate truth. Not to undermine truth seeking, you just can never get it > all. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:40:19 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:40:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015, at 5:03 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: >> I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. But I do think the psychically significant and powerful nature of a sacred space provides a lot of insight into the universe...maybe not in the same way as a telescope. The point is that the cthonic nature of the sacred space means it cannot be moved. It derives its power from its long-standing location. > > ### I do care that the telescope gets built. I do care about property rights, too. Do the chthonic believers have ownership in fee simple? If not, it's none of their business what the owners of the place use it for. > > If you want to protect what is sacred to you, buy it. Otherwise, get lost. The issue should turn whether they have a just claim to the area. (That might not be all that easy in practice, of course.) If they do, then it would be unjust to say they had to pay to get back what's theirs. If they don't, then the issue falls away. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:41:54 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:41:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 11, 2015, at 6:38 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > They've helped me become comfortable with the fact that there is no ultimate truth. Not to undermine truth seeking, you just can never get it all. > > And you think that this is a profundity that you would have never discovered unless you had tripped? Really? bill w > Good point. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:50:31 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:50:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > And you applaud it when the greatness of the Western > civilization, the wondrous quest for truth is being trampled by a coalition > of stone age crooks and politically correct liberal elite crooks? > > Well, I am... disappointed, for lack of a better word. Maybe you'd feel better if you didn't put so many words in my mouth. THE GREATNESS OF THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION will, I suspect, survive just fine with a telescope that size which gets built later, or smaller but in space. As I said, nobody pounded all the other telescopes to dust and flayed the scientists alive. If you are going to go hyperbolic, so will I. But that hyperbolic path means I'm leaving you in possession of the field. Be well. -- "The impossible takes a little longer." Michael M Butler butler.two.one at gmail.com From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 02:57:41 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:57:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, I'm just viscerally comfortable with it, and I wasn't before. But I don't really get how exactly you can argue against it. It's like, using the metaphor before, telling me chocolate isn't as delicious as I say it is when you haven't tried it. Some insights I don't have the words to explain, I've just worked them into my life. Many forgotten. On one trip, in the shower, I suddenly remembered a truth of the universe I realized I had remembered on many trips before. It was perfect, it explained everything, and it was familiar. And I promptly forgot it a second later. That one made me break out in laughter, great summation of the experience. And it's not all objective scientific insights. Social bonding or empathy, appreciation of art and artifacts (museums a favorite choice for my experiences), superb visual entertainment, cosmic jokes that make you laugh for hours (one time spent with my friend's wonderful aunt with Alzheimer's, she was so happy to have us there and she said the most beautiful post-profound non sequiturs that made me laugh with joy and completely unable to feel anything but total gratitude for my life.) Very valuable and fun experiences, interspersed with very difficult or scary times which were also valuable. Psychedelics are like a boiled down human life concentrate. Love, hate, joy, sadness, terror, anticipation, war and peace, language, culture, science, tastes and sounds and lights and teleology and aesthetics and--holy shit, that was all from watching ants on a tree for five seconds?! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 03:02:52 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:02:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know which thread to respond to. It reminds me of...psychedelics. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 12 02:55:50 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:55:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <01c701d1347d$aa448a70$fecd9f50$@att.net> Message-ID: <022501d13488$9c7cb470$d5761d50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 6:10 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >?But Spike, have you ever seen smart people do drugs? There were quite a bit at the school I went to, it's one of the top 5 in the country. Lots of kids I know who dropped acid are now working in consulting, labs, etc? Sure, smart people do things like this for fun. I just don?t think smart people do their smart things while stoned. Again I am no expert on this topic, but these people did their smartest stuff while sober. I did think of an example of something vaguely like what you are saying: Jack Kerouac writing On the Road. It is so distant from my world in every way, but I loved OtR once I realized what Jack was doing: the literature counterpart of jazz music. He did some terrific riffs with words, innovative rhythms and beat. There is one passage in OtR but I don?t know where it is and have only a hard copy. If you have a soft copy, perhaps you can find it, what I call the ?Ah dream passage? because Jack is describing being in San Francisco with so little money he was hungry most of the time. He was sponging off of local friends who were nearly starving themselves, but would feed him because he was an interesting guest. He described walking down the street (near where Lawrence Ferlinghetti *still* lives and occasionally shows up at his City Lights bookstore for beat hipsters (Ferlinghetti will be 97 in the spring)) describing the smells wafting from the bakeries and restaurants, in his San Francisco ah-dream. Kerouac fasted to become hungry enough to do a terrific job of describing being hungry. Anyone here have a soft copy of On the Road? >?Honestly if you are gonna choose something to take at 80, make it psychedelics, not pot. Pot is ok, fun, goofy, lame insights. Psychedelics will light up your brain with the seething foaming fractal nature of reality, everything becomes a metaphor for everything else, lights dance, you see new colors, etc? OK well remind me please. I have a quarter of a century before I reach that milestone. I hope we have plenty of data by then, in a forum which I can access. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 06:14:22 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:14:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > I do retain much of what Jesus said re forgiveness and other moral > philosophies ? Forgiveness? ? ? The God of the Old testament may be the most unpleasant character in all of fiction and He may have enjoyed ? ? forcing ? ? cannibalism and torture ? ? on sentient creatures, but at least once you were dead you were dead and He was finished ?tormenting ? you; but in the New Testament of Jesus ? ? after you're dead the Prince of Peace ? ? really goes to work. Jesus is going to use all His infinite skill to torture you as horribly as He can if you take just one ? ? tiny ? step out of line, and he will continue to torture you not for a billion years but for an INFINITE number of years. ?He's a sadist, ?b ut ? ? he loves you! ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 12 15:14:58 2015 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <706670966.197132.1449933298156.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> ---- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Henson > To: ExI chat list > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 11:07 AM > Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments > The meta question here is why religions get the free pass. I > certainly am not going to argue with you on the point that they do. > Claim it's religion and they get away with outright criminal > activities, corruption of the courts and governments. This is > something I have experienced personally. > > Keith I think religion gets more a free pass in democracy than it does in more traditional forms of government. For example King Henry 8.0 waved his scepter and outlawed Catholicism and created the Church of England in one fell swoop, so he could dump a wife that was killing his vibe. Then of course there was Constantine, a guy so desperate to raise armies to seize the emperorship of Rome that he was willing to institute a slave religion as the state religion to get, you guessed it, slaves to fight for him. In democracy, numbers equal power, so expect politicians, and by proxy tax collectors, judges, and cops to kiss the ass of religions in direct proportion to their local demographic popularity. Why else would a presumably not retarded neurosurgeon claim that Jesus prevented him from killing his brother? Stuart LaForge "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 16:39:18 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:39:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:14 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> I do retain much of what Jesus said re forgiveness and other moral >> philosophies > > ? > Forgiveness? > ? ? > The God of the Old testament may be the most unpleasant character in all > of fiction and He may have enjoyed > ? ? > forcing > ? ? > cannibalism and torture > ? ? > on sentient creatures, but at least once you were dead you were dead and > He was finished > ?tormenting ? > you; but in the New Testament of Jesus > ? ? > after you're dead the Prince of Peace > ? ? > really goes to work. Jesus is going to use all His infinite skill to > torture you as horribly as He can if you take just one > ? ? > tiny > ? > step out of line, and he will continue to torture you not for a billion > years but for an INFINITE number of years. > ?He's a sadist, ?b > ut > ? ? > he loves you! > > ? John K Clark? > ?Church insiders pick and choose which of the OT or NT to believe in. As an outsider I can do it too. Not that it matters, but some researchers think that a lot of words were put in Jesus' mouth just to make him more compatible with the OT - the fire and brimstone bits. I would believe in forgiveness no matter what any religious authority said. Not 'turn the other cheek' - no, definitely not that one. Forgive but avenge. Hope that doesn't sound funny coming from a leftwinger. The whole point of forgiveness is to heal your own heart, to calm your amygdala down, and assure that you are not giving in to mere rage. In other words, it's best for your mental health. I can tell you stories about the physicians who killed both of my parents. Is there a philosopher of any stripe, religious or not, whose teachings we swallow whole, without picking and choosing? I'd say no. Everybody is wrong about something - maybe even you and me. bill w? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 17:13:47 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:13:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I don't know which thread to respond to. It reminds me of...psychedelics. > Such a trip, isn't it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 17:51:48 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:51:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:03 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: ?> ? > I do care that the telescope gets built. > ?As should every civilized person on the planet! ? > ?> ? > I do care about property rights, too. Do the chthonic believers have > ownership in fee simple? > ?They have no property deed that I know about. And until Captain Cook discovered the island in 1779 (and got killed by the natives in the process) I doubt that any native Hawaiian ever stood atop Mauna Kea, it would have been a difficult dangerous journey with nothing to reward them when they got to the top but snow and ice; although around 1100 AD they did open up a Adez strip mine halfway up. So much for sacredness. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:25:28 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:25:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Keith Henson wrote: ?>? > I tend to bypass theology for biology,particularly evolutionary > psychology and reply to theology questions > ? ? > with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" > ?The world is a dangerous place so there would be an evolutionary ? advantage for children to believe what their parents tell them about it. Most people don't have hallucinations but some do, and those that do will tell their children about it and they will accept it as a fact about the world as uncritically as the fact that it's dangerous to swim in that river because of the crocodiles. And when they grow up they will tell their children the same thing even if they have not had the hallucination? themselves. So the grandchildren will also believe that the hallucination ? explains something important about the world, it must be true because mommy and daddy told me it's true. ?And so it goes. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:51:51 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:51:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: > > ?>? >> I tend to bypass theology for biology,particularly evolutionary >> psychology and reply to theology questions >> ? ? >> with the meta question, "Why do humans have religions at all?" >> > > ?The world is a dangerous place so there would be an > evolutionary > ? advantage for children to believe what their parents tell them about it. > Most people don't have hallucinations but some do, and those that do will > tell their children about it and they will accept it as a fact about the > world as uncritically as the fact that it's dangerous to swim in that river > because of the crocodiles. And when they grow up they will tell their > children the same thing even if they have not had the hallucination? > themselves. So the grandchildren will also believe that the > hallucination > ? explains something important about the world, it must be true because > mommy and daddy told me it's true. ?And so it goes. > > John K Clark > ?What is so difficult for me to understand is this: we teach young children about the tooth fairy, Santa, Easter bunny, and all sorts of things in various cultures that they grow out of (a meaningless phrase, that), coming to see fairly early that these are false. So why do they believe anything the parents and wider culture believe? One would think that they are now prejudiced against the older generation's beliefs. After all, they were lied to over and over. bill w > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Dec 12 20:44:48 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:44:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Theological arguments On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, John Clark > wrote: ? ?>?What is so difficult for me to understand is this: we teach young children about the tooth fairy, Santa, Easter bunny, and all sorts of things in various cultures that they grow out of (a meaningless phrase, that), coming to see fairly early that these are false. So why do they believe anything the parents and wider culture believe? One would think that they are now prejudiced against the older generation's beliefs. After all, they were lied to over and over. bill w BillK, the most religious parents do not teach their children about the Easter bunny, Santa or tooth fairy, none of it. They don?t want the competition for their religion memes. When I was teaching my son math, I was careful to not say you couldn?t take the square root of negative numbers. I remember so well when I was introduced to imaginary numbers at age 13: ?you know when we said you cannot take the square root of negative numbers, well that isn?t exactly right? That was a minor crisis for me, for math was the one perfectly self-consistent objective and logical world. It really bothered me to find out I was given a simplified incorrect view at any step anywhere. Soooo? I introduced my son to imaginary and complex numbers when he was 7 years old. We didn?t do much with them until recently (age 9), but when he did, they seemed perfectly natural. The hardcore religion parents are right up front in telling their kids Santa is a commercial advertising device very loosely based on a historical figure, the Easter bunny is almost that. Then they have all that credibility in the bank for their religion memes, and they need it all. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:24:07 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 16:24:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Michael Butler wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > > And you applaud it when the greatness of the Western > > civilization, the wondrous quest for truth is being trampled by a > coalition > > of stone age crooks and politically correct liberal elite crooks? > > > > Well, I am... disappointed, for lack of a better word. > > Maybe you'd feel better if you didn't put so many words in my mouth. > ### Which words did I put in your mouth? > > THE GREATNESS OF THE WESTERN CIVILIZATION will, I suspect, survive > just fine with a telescope that size which gets built later, or > smaller but in space. > ### Death of a thousand cuts starts with one. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:35:03 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:35:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix Message-ID: I have looked into it a bit and there is no good suffix for 'hate'. And we do need one. We are using 'xenophobia' to mean not just fear but hate and that is just wrong. We can even love what we fear. So, group, I don't know of any other people who are better placed to create a new suffix and thus word for hate of the new/strange/different. It must, I think, start with xeno-. Latin offers 'peregrinus' for alien. Maybe not workable. Ideas? Bill W -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:42:32 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:42:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> References: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 2:44 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Theological arguments > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > > ? > > > > ?>?What is so difficult for me to understand is this: we teach young > children about the tooth fairy, Santa, Easter bunny, and all sorts of > things in various cultures that they grow out of (a meaningless phrase, > that), coming to see fairly early that these are false. So why do they > believe anything the parents and wider culture believe? One would think > that they are now prejudiced against the older generation's beliefs. > > After all, they were lied to over and over. > > bill w > > > > > > BillK, the most religious parents do not teach their children about the > Easter bunny, Santa or tooth fairy, none of it. They don?t want the > competition for their religion memes. > > > > When I was teaching my son math, I was careful to not say you couldn?t > take the square root of negative numbers. I remember so well when I was > introduced to imaginary numbers at age 13: ?you know when we said you > cannot take the square root of negative numbers, well that isn?t exactly > right? > > > > That was a minor crisis for me, for math was the one perfectly > self-consistent objective and logical world. It really bothered me to find > out I was given a simplified incorrect view at any step anywhere. Soooo? I > introduced my son to imaginary and complex numbers when he was 7 years > old. We didn?t do much with them until recently (age 9), but when he did, > they seemed perfectly natural. > > > > The hardcore religion parents are right up front in telling their kids > Santa is a commercial advertising device very loosely based on a historical > figure, the Easter bunny is almost that. Then they have all that > credibility in the bank for their religion memes, and they need it all. > > > > spike > > > ?That's billW please. And you just don't know Southern Baptists (the > most extreme group - Methodists and Episcopalians will be very similar - I > don't know what the speaking in tongues churches do; we have a lot of > those). The very idea of not celebrating Xmas in every way - well, just no > words for that. And Easter Bunny and all the rest - part of the Southern > culture. I take it you were raised in a very different environment. bill w > ? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 12 21:54:41 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:54:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C97A1.5030604@aleph.se> On 2015-12-12 17:13, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 7:02 PM, Will Steinberg > > wrote: > > I don't know which thread to respond to. It reminds me > of...psychedelics. > > Such a trip, isn't it? Whoa. Have you considered that space and time might just be a particular ordering of little bits. There is no place, just orderings... -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:55:15 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:55:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2015 1:25 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > ### Which words did I put in your mouth? We are done here, I think. I'm of such limited intellect that I have to budget my time, and I've used up all the time I have budgeted for this conversation with you for the next century. Be well, and may you get the kind of world you want. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 12 22:39:55 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:39:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Latin for hate is "odium" (odi-, as in odious), greek is "miso" (tuned into mis-, as in misogynous). Neither seem to work as a suffix. Then there is invidia, which primarily means envy/spite/ill will, but also hatred/dislike. Xenoinvidia sounds pretty impressive... except that it is a greek-latin hybrid (like television). Latin has the word alienus for foreigner. Alienodium? There is also the Latin word bracatus meaning "wearing trousers/foreign". Hmm, what about allophobia? On 2015-12-12 21:35, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I have looked into it a bit and there is no good suffix for 'hate'. > And we do need one. > > We are using 'xenophobia' to mean not just fear but hate and that is > just wrong. We can even love what we fear. > > So, group, I don't know of any other people who are better placed to > create a new suffix and thus word for hate of the new/strange/different. > > It must, I think, start with xeno-. Latin offers 'peregrinus' for > alien. Maybe not workable. > > Ideas? > > Bill W > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 22:42:38 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:42:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> Message-ID: On 12 December 2015 at 21:42, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> That's billW please. And you just don't know Southern Baptists (the most >> extreme group - Methodists and Episcopalians will be very similar - I don't >> know what the speaking in tongues churches do; we have a lot of those). The >> very idea of not celebrating Xmas in every way - well, just no words for >> that. And Easter Bunny and all the rest - part of the Southern culture. I >> take it you were raised in a very different environment. bill w >> Whew!! Glad you stepped in there, billW. Spike was on the verge of saying that Santa doesn't exist! That would have meant no Xmas treats for him. :) BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 22:55:01 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:55:01 +0000 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 12 December 2015 at 22:39, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Latin for hate is "odium" (odi-, as in odious), greek is "miso" (tuned into > mis-, as in misogynous). Neither seem to work as a suffix. > > Then there is invidia, which primarily means envy/spite/ill will, but also > hatred/dislike. Xenoinvidia sounds pretty impressive... except that it is a > greek-latin hybrid (like television). > > Latin has the word alienus for foreigner. Alienodium? > There is also the Latin word bracatus meaning "wearing trousers/foreign". > > Hmm, what about allophobia? > Misoneism ? Neophobia ? BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 23:03:56 2015 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:03:56 +1100 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sunday, 13 December 2015, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Latin for hate is "odium" (odi-, as in odious), greek is "miso" (tuned > into mis-, as in misogynous). Neither seem to work as a suffix. > "Misos" is the noun so "xenomisos", for example, would work. > Then there is invidia, which primarily means envy/spite/ill will, but also > hatred/dislike. Xenoinvidia sounds pretty impressive... except that it is a > greek-latin hybrid (like television). > > Latin has the word alienus for foreigner. Alienodium? > > There is also the Latin word bracatus meaning "wearing trousers/foreign". > > Hmm, what about allophobia? > > > > On 2015-12-12 21:35, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I have looked into it a bit and there is no good suffix for 'hate'. And > we do need one. > > We are using 'xenophobia' to mean not just fear but hate and that is just > wrong. We can even love what we fear. > > So, group, I don't know of any other people who are better placed to > create a new suffix and thus word for hate of the new/strange/different. > > It must, I think, start with xeno-. Latin offers 'peregrinus' for alien. > Maybe not workable. > > Ideas? > > Bill W > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 23:04:11 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:04:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: <566C97A1.5030604@aleph.se> References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> <566C97A1.5030604@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 12 December 2015 at 21:54, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Whoa. Have you considered that space and time might just be a particular > ordering of little bits. There is no place, just orderings... > Bits? ?Maybe that is our mistake: maybe there are no particle positions and velocities, but only waves. It is just that we try to fit the waves to our preconceived ideas of positions and velocities. The resulting mismatch is the cause of the apparent unpredictability.? -Stephen Hawking BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 23:05:37 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:05:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anderhass -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 23:09:10 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:09:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics In-Reply-To: <566C97A1.5030604@aleph.se> References: <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <00ca01d1345a$db8e1d80$92aa5880$@att.net> <566B6B76.9030000@aleph.se> <36748FE2-479F-41B9-A12D-F6C990DCE42E@gmail.com> <566C97A1.5030604@aleph.se> Message-ID: That's like the first half second of the first trip. Plus it's all about what you put in. I did it as a literally sophomoric college student. To give any of you accomplished doctorate-carrying folks psychedelics would probably be a wonderful thing for the human race. Information of that caliber doesn't often the opportunity to do the novel insight producing psychedelic scramble dance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 12 23:23:36 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:23:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: <566CAC78.2000401@aleph.se> On 2015-12-12 23:05, Will Steinberg wrote: > > Anderhass > That one is seriously good. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 00:41:05 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:41:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 11, 2015, at 5:03 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> I don't really care about whether the telescope gets built or not. But I >> do think the psychically significant and powerful nature of a sacred space >> provides a lot of insight into the universe...maybe not in the same way as >> a telescope. The point is that the cthonic nature of the sacred space >> means it cannot be moved. It derives its power from its long-standing >> location. >> > > ### I do care that the telescope gets built. I do care about property > rights, too. Do the chthonic believers have ownership in fee simple? If > not, it's none of their business what the owners of the place use it for. > > If you want to protect what is sacred to you, buy it. Otherwise, get lost. > > > The issue should turn whether they have a just claim to the area. (That > might not be all that easy in practice, of course.) If they do, then it > would be unjust to say they had to pay to get back what's theirs. If they > don't, then the issue falls away. > ### Exactly. Well-defined property rights to whatever is worth owning that cannot be overruled by legislation or judicial activism, not even if claims to sacred values are made, are extremely efficient in maximizing human welfare. Property rights are the sacred value. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 01:37:26 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:37:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: References: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> Message-ID: <01de01d13546$d3534e50$79f9eaf0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:43 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Theological arguments On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 2:44 PM, spike > wrote: From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org ] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Theological arguments On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, John Clark > wrote: ? ?>?What is so difficult for me to understand is this: we teach young children about the tooth fairy, Santa, Easter bunny?After all, they were lied to over and over. bill w BillK, the most religious parents do not teach their children about the Easter bunny, Santa or tooth fairy, none of it. They don?t want the competition for their religion memes?spike ?>?That's billW please? Oops ja, sorry. >? The very idea of not celebrating Xmas in every way - well, just no words for that? I take it you were raised in a very different environment. bill w? Times change. I may be wrong on this, but it feels to me like Santa Claus is a pale shadow of the importance now compared to my own misspent childhood. In those benighted times, every strip mall had its own Santa character. It is possible they still do in many places, but I don?t really see it much around here. The local children are only vaguely familiar with the concept. I don?t know if it is changing times or just this area. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 01:57:51 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:57:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Theological arguments In-Reply-To: <01de01d13546$d3534e50$79f9eaf0$@att.net> References: <00cf01d1351d$f2634210$d729c630$@att.net> <01de01d13546$d3534e50$79f9eaf0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:37 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Saturday, December 12, 2015 1:43 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Theological arguments > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 2:44 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Theological arguments > > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > > ? > > > > ?>?What is so difficult for me to understand is this: we teach young > children about the tooth fairy, Santa, Easter bunny?After all, they were > lied to over and over. > > bill w > > BillK, the most religious parents do not teach their children about the > Easter bunny, Santa or tooth fairy, none of it. They don?t want the > competition for their religion memes?spike > > ?>?That's billW please? > > > > Oops ja, sorry. > > > > >? The very idea of not celebrating Xmas in every way - well, just no > words for that? I take it you were raised in a very different > environment. bill w? > > > > Times change. I may be wrong on this, but it feels to me like Santa Claus > is a pale shadow of the importance now compared to my own misspent > childhood. In those benighted times, every strip mall had its own Santa > character. It is possible they still do in many places, but I don?t really > see it much around here. The local children are only vaguely familiar with > the concept. I don?t know if it is changing times or just this area. > > > > spike > > > > > > ?You and the people you are around - the local children - are all from > California. > > ?I rest my case. bill w? > ? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 02:19:45 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:19:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <566CAC78.2000401@aleph.se> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> <566CAC78.2000401@aleph.se> Message-ID: <021201d1354c$bc5e5360$351afa20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 3:24 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] need a new word/suffix On 2015-12-12 23:05, Will Steinberg wrote: Anderhass That one is seriously good. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Ja. In English if you are missing a word, you can do the classic thing and borrow one from another language. I prefer German for this purpose. The German term schraube means screw (the metal fastener) but since we are borrowing and adapting the term, we can go with the verb form schrauben and use a little cross-language creativity to make the suffix schrauben, meaning to screw it. This is a common Yankeeism for something one does not like, but isn't something to be feared exactly. One who has trafficschrauben is one who does not like traffic. Tea Party followers are taxschraubens. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 03:16:48 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:16:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Power satellites again Message-ID: I just posted some graphs on power-satellite-economics at googlegroups.com that will not go through this email program. If the topic of solving the energy crisis before it solves us is of interest, you can go there and read or sign up. There is a conference on the topic next week but I should be able to sign in at times. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 04:30:51 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 20:30:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 2:55 PM, BillK wrote: > On 12 December 2015 at 22:39, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > Latin for hate is "odium" (odi-, as in odious), greek is "miso" (tuned > into > > mis-, as in misogynous). Neither seem to work as a suffix. > > > > Then there is invidia, which primarily means envy/spite/ill will, but > also > > hatred/dislike. Xenoinvidia sounds pretty impressive... except that it > is a > > greek-latin hybrid (like television). > > > > Latin has the word alienus for foreigner. Alienodium? > > There is also the Latin word bracatus meaning "wearing trousers/foreign". > > > > Hmm, what about allophobia? > > Misoneism ? > > Neophobia ? "All we have to fear is phobiphobia." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 04:32:57 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 20:32:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Power satellites again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000e01d1355f$58653cd0$092fb670$@att.net> Thanks Keith. A long time ago, there were some low limits set on the size of messages to ExI, but if it looks like something plenty of us will find of interest, I can override that and send it thru. Times have changed a lot since the early days of ExI with regard to the price of storage, about 5 orders of magnitude. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 7:17 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Power satellites again I just posted some graphs on power-satellite-economics at googlegroups.com that will not go through this email program. If the topic of solving the energy crisis before it solves us is of interest, you can go there and read or sign up. There is a conference on the topic next week but I should be able to sign in at times. Keith _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 05:23:07 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:23:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> Message-ID: <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >?"All we have to fear is phobiphobia." Controls engineers love the Roosevelt quote ??all we have to feah is feah itself?? for it is the classic unstable system, pole in the right half plane. It practically invites a Monte Python parody as the president confidently makes the statement. The broadcast ends, he sits back. Starts to look around nervously, which make him nervous which causes him to break out into a cold sweat, which causes him to jump with a startle, which causes him to exclaim OH DEAH, which causes him to shriek in terror? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 05:46:33 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 00:46:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I have looked into it a bit and there is no good suffix for 'hate'. And we > do need one. > > We are using 'xenophobia' to mean not just fear but hate and that is just > wrong. We can even love what we fear. > > So, group, I don't know of any other people who are better placed to create > a new suffix and thus word for hate of the new/strange/different. > > It must, I think, start with xeno-. Latin offers 'peregrinus' for alien. > Maybe not workable. > > Ideas? Those who hate are probably not educated enough to appreciate latinate suffixes Instead I proposed we borrow from dutch (or german) morphology and simply join primitive words with a hyphen* to make your 'hate' suffix recognizable: -hate. So we have: religion-hate, such as muslim-hate, jew-hate, christian-hate race-hate, including black-hate, white-hate, brown-hate, red-hate, etc. ethnic-hate, including arab-hate, latino-hate, various asia-hate such as china-hate and india-hate xeno-hate (for hate without fear) or perhaps more clear "other-hate" ...though it all screams newspeak to me. * I propose using the hyphen because english already hyphenates compound words, and we're generally not very good at spelling... so lets keep a delimiter in there for the sake of automatic spell check. From atymes at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 05:50:52 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:50:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 9:23 PM, spike wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > > > > >?"All we have to fear is phobiphobia." > > > > Controls engineers love the Roosevelt quote ??all we have to feah is feah > itself?? for it is the classic unstable system, pole in the right half > plane. It practically invites a Monte Python parody as the president > confidently makes the statement. The broadcast ends, he sits back. Starts > to look around nervously, which make him nervous which causes him to break > out into a cold sweat, which causes him to jump with a startle, which > causes him to exclaim OH DEAH, which causes him to shriek in terror? > You cite that as humor, but there is a real lesson to be read there, perhaps the one he meant. Fear can feed on itself in exactly that fashion, leading to ever more extreme reactions that are ultimately traceable back to small or completely absent (perhaps mistaken) original stimuli. In my career as an engineer, I have lost count of the number of times I have had to perform some complex technical task, not easily explicable to management (who often did not have time for such explanations anyway), which all proceeded as smoothly as possible when one understood the details but management got worried, and decided to blame me for doing what they had asked. I do try to give them a basic explanation, but too many times all they are willing to understand is, "ignore the warnings that are about to show up, because they'll be false alarms". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 06:18:20 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:18:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> Message-ID: <001601d1356e$1104b190$330e14b0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] need a new word/suffix On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 9:23 PM, spike > wrote: From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org ] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >?"All we have to fear is phobiphobia." >>Controls engineers love the Roosevelt quote ??all we have to feah is feah itself?? >?You cite that as humor, but there is a real lesson to be read there, perhaps the one he meant. Fear can feed on itself in exactly that fashion, leading to ever more extreme reactions that are ultimately traceable back to small or completely absent (perhaps mistaken) original stimuli? Ja. Consider a new irony leading to a new instability. Roosevelt was hoping to calm feahs and head off bank runs. OK that makes sense: he was hoping people would calm down and leave their money in the bank. But clearly there is a risk that the masses will feah feah itself, and start a bank run. Those who calmed down and left their money in the failed bank now have something to fear besides fear itself, such as? starvation. Regardless of the original stimuli, panic is always a real threat. We are in such a situation now that massive panics could be touched off by something as simple as not even a power failure, but a failure of the email system or internet. We would become aware that our life savings is not really in the form of piles of US bills in a vault but rather piles of bits on an electronic storage medium. We would realize that this wealth is not tradeable without electronic communications. Without it, we cannot use credit cards, cannot use Bitcoin, cannot even use PayPal, cannot trade stocks, we cannot make a withdrawal at the local bank or even use the ATM. Conclusions: our entire system has become so brittle that the failure of something we didn?t even have thirty years ago could start a series of bank failures that the government could not bail out. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Sun Dec 13 09:51:55 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 09:51:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566D3FBB.7080304@yahoo.com> William Flynn Wallace wrote: "I have looked into it a bit and there is no good suffix for 'hate'. And we do need one. We are using 'xenophobia' to mean not just fear but hate and that is just wrong. We can even love what we fear. So, group, I don't know of any other people who are better placed to create a new suffix and thus word for hate of the new/strange/different. It must, I think, start with xeno-. Latin offers 'peregrinus' for alien. Maybe not workable. Ideas?" I would suggest -odia. From Odium. It works for some words (Islamodia) but not really for others (Xenodia, Xeno-odia?) Although it might not be grammatically sound to use it like that, I'm not learned enough to know. Ben Zaiboc From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 10:44:33 2015 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 05:44:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <001601d1356e$1104b190$330e14b0$@att.net> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> <001601d1356e$1104b190$330e14b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:18 AM, spike wrote: > Conclusions: our entire system has become so brittle that the failure of > something we didn?t even have thirty years ago could start a series of bank > failures that the government could not bail out. A popular scenario. Fight Club uses it as a major goal of the story/protagonist. Mr.Robot ends the first season having accomplished an economic collapse via a hack rather than an explosion. Fight Club = http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0137523/ Mr. Robot = http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4158110/ From spike66 at att.net Sun Dec 13 16:44:55 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 08:44:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee Message-ID: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.gif Type: image/gif Size: 70918 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 18:29:25 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:29:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > ?Church insiders pick and choose which of the OT or NT to believe in. ? Christians believe in both but say the New ? Testament? is better, God must have improved with a few thousand years of on the job training or something. Well, God forcing people to become cannibals in Jeremiah 19:1 is pretty bad ? ? ( *"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend* *?"* ) but the fact is it's ?in ? the New Testament not the old that ?you find? the ?idea of ? eternal torture in hel l ?,? and that's ?far more perverted than cannibalism. ? . ?>? > some researchers think that a lot of words were put in Jesus' mouth just > to make him more compatible with the OT - the fire and brimstone bits. > I don't even know if Jesus existed, the evidence that he did is stronger than the evidence that Achilles existed but not as ? ? strong as the evidence that Muhammad ? ? did. But it doesn't matter, ? ? I refer to the character portrayed in the bible, ? ? I refer to the Prince of Peace ? ? who said in Matthew 10:34 " *Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.? ?For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law*" ?, I ?refer to the biblical Jesus who impressed the rubes with card tricks and other stunts; that Jesus was a Jerk. I'd be a lot more impressed if Jesus had taught us about the second law of thermodynamics rather than hear a report of questionable accuracy about some water into wine trick. It took the human race another 1800 years to learn about entropy and although it teaches us nothing about morality neither do Christ's stunts, and unlike the fermented grape juice bit you can't fake thermodynamics. Christ was a nut, nutty as a fruitcake, or to put it in more politically correct language, he had a mental illness that produced delusions of grandeur. ? If he was a ?real ? historical figure ? I don't think it was an act, I think he really thought he was God. Christ was a martinet. His words *"You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell"* sounds more like a typical flame you can find anywhere on the net then it does the wisdom of a great sage. Buddha, Lao-tse, and Socrates all had a much more enlightened attitude toward those who disagreed with them, and they had it 500 years before Jesus. Christ was a creep. He believed in hell, he talked with glee about *"wailing and gnashing of teeth"* and *"these shall go away into everlasting fire"*. He thought that torturing somebody, not for a billion years, but for an INFINITE number of years would be an amusing thing to do to somebody he didn't like. I think cruelty on this monstrous scale proves that Christ of the bible is morally indistinguishable from Satan of the bible. Christ was a idiot. He believed that God, that is to say himself, was furious with the human race (something to do with fruit trees) and even though he could do anything the only way for him to forgive the humans would be for the humans to torture him to death, even though being a ? ? God he can not die. Does any of this seem very smart to ? ? you? I don't believe I'm engaging in hyperbole, imagine for a moment what it would be like if ? the ? Christian God did exist, it would be worse than living in North Korea. Here we have an all powerful demon addicted to flattery who can read your every thought and will torture you, not for a long time, but for ETERNITY if you take even one small step out of line or break just one of his many, many, rules and they includes thought crimes. To make matters worse you're not even sure exactly what all his rules are, the "experts" violently (and I do mean violently) disagree, so you never know if you're going to be tortured or how to avoid it. This seems pretty depressing to me and not at all moral, I'll take an indifferent universe over a sadistic one any day. I call your attention to a quotation from Charles Darwin, a better man by far than the son of God even if you ignore his enormous scientific ability. I would certainly much rather have Darwin as my next door neighbor than a vindictive pompous ass like Jesus Christ. In spite of the objections of his very religious but loving wife, he wrote this in his 1876 autobiography : " *Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but at last was? complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine."* *? *John K Clark*?* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 18:33:36 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:33:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> Message-ID: <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Haha! Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 19:37:31 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 14:37:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] need a new word/suffix In-Reply-To: <001601d1356e$1104b190$330e14b0$@att.net> References: <566CA23B.8040204@aleph.se> <002201d13566$5a9a8f30$0fcfad90$@att.net> <001601d1356e$1104b190$330e14b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:18 AM, spike wrote: > > > Conclusions: our entire system has become so brittle that the failure of > something we didn?t even have thirty years ago could start a series of bank > failures that the government could not bail out. > ### Bank failures, including loss of access to cash, are very unlikely to cause failure of the whole economic system. There is a large number of cases of such failures, none of which brought about societal collapse. Some of the more recent ones are the Icelandic, Greek and Irish bank failures but there is a long history of these. So don't worry, if worst comes to worst, money is reliably re-invented by monetization of previously non-monetary assets and by appearance of peer-to-peer credit. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 19:44:35 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:44:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I think you just about said it all. bill w On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:29 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?> ? >> ?Church insiders pick and choose which of the OT or NT to believe in. > > > ? > Christians believe in both but say the New > ? > Testament? > is better, God must have improved with a few thousand years of on the job > training or something. Well, God forcing people to become cannibals in > Jeremiah 19:1 is pretty bad > ? ? > ( *"And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of > their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend* > *?"* > ) but the fact is it's > ?in ? > the New Testament not the old that > ?you find? > the > ?idea of ? > eternal torture in > hel > l > ?,? > and that's > ?far more perverted than cannibalism. ? > . > > ?>? >> some researchers think that a lot of words were put in Jesus' mouth just >> to make him more compatible with the OT - the fire and brimstone bits. >> > > I don't even know if Jesus existed, the evidence that he did is stronger > than the evidence that Achilles existed but not as > ? ? > strong as the evidence that Muhammad > ? ? > did. But it doesn't matter, > ? ? > I refer to the character portrayed in the bible, > ? ? > I refer to the Prince of Peace > ? ? > who said in Matthew 10:34 " > *Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to > bring peace, but a sword.? ?For I am come to set a man at variance against > his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law > against her mother in law*" > ?, I ?refer to the biblical Jesus > who impressed the rubes with card tricks and other stunts; that Jesus was > a Jerk. > > I'd be a lot more impressed if Jesus had taught us about the second law of > thermodynamics rather than hear a report of questionable accuracy about > some water into wine trick. It took the human race another 1800 years to > learn about entropy and although it teaches us nothing about morality > neither do Christ's stunts, and unlike the fermented grape juice bit you > can't fake thermodynamics. > > Christ was a nut, nutty as a fruitcake, or to put it in more politically > correct language, he had a mental illness that produced delusions of > grandeur. > ? > If he was a > ?real ? > historical figure > ? I > don't think it was an act, I think he really thought he was God. > > Christ was a martinet. His words *"You serpents, you generation of > vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell"* sounds more like a > typical flame you can find anywhere on the net then it does the wisdom of a > great sage. Buddha, Lao-tse, and Socrates all had a much more enlightened > attitude toward those who disagreed with them, and they had it 500 years > before Jesus. > > Christ was a creep. He believed in hell, he talked with glee about *"wailing > and gnashing of teeth"* and *"these shall go away into everlasting fire"*. > He thought that torturing somebody, not for a billion years, but for an > INFINITE number of years would be an amusing thing to do to somebody he > didn't like. I think cruelty on this monstrous scale proves that Christ of > the bible is morally indistinguishable from Satan of the bible. > > Christ was a idiot. He believed that God, that is to say himself, was > furious with the human race (something to do with fruit trees) and even > though he could do anything the only way for him to forgive the humans > would be for the humans to torture him to death, even though being a > ? ? > God he can not die. Does any of this seem very smart to > ? ? > you? > > I don't believe I'm engaging in hyperbole, imagine for a moment what it > would be like if > ? > the > ? > Christian God did exist, it would be worse than living in North Korea. > Here we have an all powerful demon addicted to flattery who can read your > every thought and will torture you, not for a long time, but for ETERNITY > if you take even one small step out of line or break just one of his many, > many, rules and they includes thought crimes. To make matters worse you're > not even sure exactly what all his rules are, the "experts" violently (and > I do mean violently) disagree, so you never know if you're going to be > tortured or how to avoid it. This seems pretty depressing to me and not at > all moral, I'll take an indifferent universe over a sadistic one any day. > > I call your attention to a quotation from Charles Darwin, a better man by > far than the son of God even if you ignore his enormous scientific ability. > I would certainly much rather have Darwin as my next door neighbor than a > vindictive pompous ass like Jesus Christ. In spite of the objections of his > very religious but loving wife, he wrote this in his 1876 autobiography : > " > *Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but at last was? complete. > The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted > even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed > hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the > plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, > and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, > will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine."* > > *? *John K Clark*?* > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 23:52:09 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:52:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 00:03:11 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:03:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Then again, the law can be biased. Westerners came to America, forced people off the land, and wrote their own title deeds for the land. When the bullies write the deeds, how valid are they. Those who have genetic mantle of native Hawaiians may well argue that the claim is nullified because the titles were given under duress. How would you feel if China took over America, kicked you out of your house, and rewrote the land certificates? And it's very unlikely that those descendants of natives will be able to successfully argue in court that they have a just claim to the land. It happens, but rarely. The sad fact is that thieves and their progeny wrote the laws and own the country. Oh well, that's how it goes. Take what you can and such. Everyone gets their comeuppance whether it comes fast or waits until the moment of death a la Kurtz in Heart of Darkness. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 00:18:51 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:18:51 -0600 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:52 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott > Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: > comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that > women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to > withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't > complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because > women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. > ?After a good deal of success, many become their favorite philosopher. Not that this applies to any of us. Oh no. bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 05:43:46 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 21:43:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 13, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Then again, the law can be biased. Westerners came to America, forced people off the land, and wrote their own title deeds for the land. When the bullies write the deeds, how valid are they. Those who have genetic mantle of native Hawaiians may well argue that the claim is nullified because the titles were given under duress. > > How would you feel if China took over America, kicked you out of your house, and rewrote the land certificates? > > And it's very unlikely that those descendants of natives will be able to successfully argue in court that they have a just claim to the land. It happens, but rarely. The sad fact is that thieves and their progeny wrote the laws and own the country. > > Oh well, that's how it goes. Take what you can and such. Everyone gets their comeuppance whether it comes fast or waits until the moment of death a la Kurtz in Heart of Darkness. > You completely misunderstand. A just title would not necessarily be one that's approved of by current law or current government, both of which are inherently unjust and should be abolished. A just claim merely is one where the land was acquired in a just manner -- that is, via either first appropriation, honest exchange, or as a gift. The examples you mention -- taking land then writing up titles for it or using government to take land -- are not examples of acquiring land in a just manner. This should be clear. This isn't the part of property rights theory that's difficult. ;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:28:08 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:28:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] no end of morons Message-ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/solar-farm-suck-up-the-sun_566e9aeee4b0e292150e5d66 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:43:22 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:43:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] no end of morons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:28 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/solar-farm-suck-up-the-sun_566e9aeee4b0e292150e5d66 > I wonder if that's real or came from ? ? something like ? ? The Onion; that's seems almost too dumb to be true even for environmentalists. ? ? And being led by a "?r etired science teacher ?"?? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 17:37:45 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:37:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] no end of morons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:43 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 11:28 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote > > >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/solar-farm-suck-up-the-sun_566e9aeee4b0e292150e5d66 >> > > I wonder if that's real or came from > ? ? > something like > ? ? > The Onion; that's seems almost too dumb to be true even for > environmentalists. > ? ? > And being led by a "?r > etired science teacher > ?"?? > > ? John K Clark? > > ? You gotta wonder if the media only interview the wackos. Otherwise there > is no news, right? Ordinary, logical opinions are not news anymore. > ?The Onion can only be funny if there's a chance that real people are like whatever it is they are satirizing. "The only difference between reality and and fiction is that fiction has to be credible." ? ?Mark Twain But I would emend your response to read 'true even for right wing nuts'. This environmentalist is fully for solar/wind/nuclear/. ?You would not believe who got to teach science in southern Mississippi when I was growing up. Start with coaches.... > bill w? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 18:30:49 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:30:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > ?> ? > How would you feel if China took over America, kicked you out of your > house, and rewrote the land certificates? > > ?I'd feel bad. But if somebody had kicked my ?great great great great grandfather out of his house today I wouldn't feel much about it one way or the other. And no native Hawaiian ever had a land certificate for the top of Mauna Kea ?, no native Hawaiian ever lived there, and before Captain ?Cook landed in 1779 it's unlikely any native Hawaiian even set foot there. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 21:17:14 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Right, but if that's because they thought it was a god, the idea of owning the land makes no sense. Land certificates don't exist in the same realm as believing the land is a deity, maybe they thought the land owned them. Though I'm sure their culture understands the concept of conquering territory. But in this case, even though they did have an implicit property rights system, it wouldn't have applied to the mountain. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 21:35:04 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:35:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Property rights to the summit/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 December 2015 at 21:17, Will Steinberg wrote: > Right, but if that's because they thought it was a god, the idea of owning > the land makes no sense. Land certificates don't exist in the same realm as > believing the land is a deity, maybe they thought the land owned them. > Though I'm sure their culture understands the concept of conquering > territory. But in this case, even though they did have an implicit property > rights system, it wouldn't have applied to the mountain. > Originally Hawaii land was all owned by the monarchy of Hawaii. In 1893 the monarchy was overthrown, the Republic of Hawaii was formed and the land became government property. In 1898 Hawaii officially became a territory of the United States. Hawaii was admitted as a U.S. state in 1959. Since Hawaii became a state the land arrangements have become complicated. About 40% is still owned by the state. Scientific American has a good explanation of the issues involved. Hawaii's Telescope Controversy Is the Latest in a Long History of Land-Ownership Battles By Shannon Hall on December 11, 2015 -------------- BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 01:00:57 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:00:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] no end of morons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2015 8:30 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/solar-farm-suck-up-the-sun_566e9aeee4b0e292150e5d66 Digging a little bit, it seems to be yet another small and dwindling collection of superstitious anti-modern-world sorts, looking for something, anything, other than themselves to blame for why businesses don't want to set up shop and bring lots of money to where they live. This group happens to be in the US. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 04:15:32 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:15:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hive Mind and Scott Alexander Message-ID: Scott at slatestarcodex is withdrawing his critique of Hive Mind: " I am not *quite* to the point of sticking this on the Mistakes page, especially sinceArnold Kling had the same concern even before me, but I admit it some of this is more complicated than I originally expected and I might end up going either way on it." ### Scott's willingness to publicly change his mind on a subject of possible tribal significance speaks volumes about his integrity and openness. This greatly increases my respect for him. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:08:26 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:08:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <016f01d13379$1a035360$4e09fa20$@att.net> <004901d13422$30d5b7a0$928126e0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 6:42 AM, spike wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again > > > >?Just to dial back the hyperbole a bit: what she's talking about goes > well beyond criticism. She's objecting to calls for violent action - and > to action based on said calls - against people who have not committed the > offenses they are being blamed for? > > > > Ja OK. Well then, if the AG thinks it is illegal to suggest violent > action towards believers > Do you mind, Spike? I was trying to reduce the logical fallacies, not give cause to create more. "Believers" is not synonymous with "people who have not committed the offenses they are being blamed for", no matter whether there is overlap between the two groups. The rest of your post has similar errors of conflation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:20:13 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:20:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > As for the "illusion" ... prove that you have ever had an experience that > wasn't an illusion. > Fair enough. I meant "assuming consensus reality, that does not edit its past, in the normal sense that most of us experience for the majority of our lives". From that perspective, if you think you encounter X but subsequent evidence suggests that X never existed, then it may have been that X was an illusion. For example, if you think you see a giant lake near the horizon on the desert but when you get to where the lake supposed is you only see more sand, that may have been the specific type of illusion known as a "mirage". > Abstinence from drugs is similar to abstinence from sex. You can be an > expert on the reports of others, but you have no authority to speak on the > subjective without actual context. > I have experience with tripping, just not tripping induced by drugs. I have experience with the mental illusions I describe, and I see the same in what those on drugs claim to have experienced. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:26:35 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:26:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that insights > regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as Adrian > says: nothing brilliant. > Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when stoned. > Exactly right. And I'm not suggesting they're invalid: the sensory impressions are indeed more vivid. Just...they don't actually produce better results for anything you want to matter to anyone outside your own mind. Assuming radiotelepathy (brain to brain communication at some level deeper than language, via electronics wired to the brain and linked via radio/wire/whatever electronic bridge) was a thing, what would happen if one of a pair of linked minds were to trip while the other did not, assuming they are sharing full sensory impressions with each other and started the experiment already used to this connection? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Dec 15 10:40:55 2015 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 03:40:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Adrian: It's hard for me to assess your dismissive claim about insights while under the influence of drugs, partly because it's not clear to me whether you are talking about one or two drugs that you are most familiar with, or all drugs. (There are *hundreds* of mind-altering drugs, if not thousands, that we already know of.) These days, I have too many and too consistent and persistent responsibilities to experiment with major mind-altering substances. In my 20s and early 30s, however, I became very "experienced" (in the Jim Morrison sense). Back in April 1989, I wrote a (now) slightly embarrassing and over-enthusiastic piece called "Psychedelics and Mind Expansion", published in *Extropy *#3. (Good luck googling that. Pre-Web!) I'm pretty sure that you are *mostly* correct. I do recall two separate LSD experiences. In one, I "realized" that the core of reality is unity. In another, I "realized" that the core of reality is duality. On the other hand, I can say for sure that LSD enabled me to experience things (music, interactions with people, and interactions with nature) in ways I never had before, and that have continued to have (positive if occasional) effects since. For instance, I found myself (contrary to my then-highly reserved nature) talking to and *seeing* people like the postman and a grocery store clerk in ways that I never had before. In addition, while I would not recommend over-indulgence with THC, I have no doubt that it enabled me to overcome some deep-rooted emotional blockages that led me to talk to someone very close to me about a critical issue that I never been able to broach before. (Again, this was late-1980s/early 90s.) That opening up has had long-lasting benefits. So, I think your comments are mostly but not entirely true. We may be able to gain more value (apart from simple enjoyment/joy/engagement -- also worthy outcomes) from mind-altering drugs if we (a) could design them with greater specificity, and (b) had a much better understanding of how they would affect any specific individual. On the latter: Many people apparently have wonderfully enjoyable experiences on MDMA (unless they overdose or combine in stupid ways). I did not. In fact, I had some truly emotionally horrible experiences on the few occasions that I tried it. (Was it the substance? Was it the time in my life? I don't know.) That's interesting, because my LSD experiences were almost all good to fantastically great, with only one or two not-good (but not bad) occasions. (I think the least enjoyable was going to a Grateful Dead concert in LA -- I was not familiar with their music -- at a time when I really wasn't in a good mood.) I'm surprised I'm commenting at this length... The topic takes me back. [Not a flashback!] --Max On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that insights >> regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as Adrian >> says: nothing brilliant. >> Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when stoned. >> > > Exactly right. And I'm not suggesting they're invalid: the sensory > impressions are indeed more vivid. Just...they don't actually produce > better results for anything you want to matter to anyone outside your own > mind. > > Assuming radiotelepathy (brain to brain communication at some level deeper > than language, via electronics wired to the brain and linked via > radio/wire/whatever electronic bridge) was a thing, what would happen if > one of a pair of linked minds were to trip while the other did not, > assuming they are sharing full sensory impressions with each other and > started the experiment already used to this connection? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:40:22 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:40:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch Message-ID: This App Monitors Bee Flight To Warn When Something's Amiss Quote: "It's really easy now for a beekeeper to identify things like an ant attack, just by watching videos and time lapses of their hive," he says. The technology also picks out the flight activity at the hive, allowing beekeepers to understand what "normal" behavior patterns look like. This allows them to detect subtle changes going on inside the hive that cause a colony to decline. In one case, as beekeepers tested the technology, a change in activity alerted them that the queen bee had died, along with the emergency replacement queen. "The bees were doomed," says Temby. "A simple intervention of putting in a frame of eggs from the hive next to it, allowed the bees to raise another queen, and the new queen led that hive back to success." In other cases, the alerts helped beekeepers learn that they should modify the opening to the hive to keep out pests or add some extra honey to supplement the hive's food. ----------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:34:06 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:34:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: ?? On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Max More wrote: > Adrian: It's hard for me to assess your dismissive claim about insights > while under the influence of drugs, partly because it's not clear to me > whether you are talking about one or two drugs that you are most familiar > with, or all drugs. (There are *hundreds* of mind-altering drugs, if not > thousands, that we already know of.) > > These days, I have too many and too consistent and persistent > responsibilities to experiment with major mind-altering substances. In my > 20s and early 30s, however, I became very "experienced" (in the Jim > Morrison sense). Back in April 1989, I wrote a (now) slightly embarrassing > and over-enthusiastic piece called "Psychedelics and Mind Expansion", > published in *Extropy *#3. (Good luck googling that. Pre-Web!) I'm pretty > sure that you are *mostly* correct. I do recall two separate LSD > experiences. In one, I "realized" that the core of reality is unity. In > another, I "realized" that the core of reality is duality. > > On the other hand, I can say for sure that LSD enabled me to experience > things (music, interactions with people, and interactions with nature) in > ways I never had before, and that have continued to have (positive if > occasional) effects since. For instance, I found myself (contrary to my > then-highly reserved nature) talking to and *seeing* people like the > postman and a grocery store clerk in ways that I never had before. In > addition, while I would not recommend over-indulgence with THC, I have no > doubt that it enabled me to overcome some deep-rooted emotional blockages > that led me to talk to someone very close to me about a critical issue that > I never been able to broach before. (Again, this was late-1980s/early 90s.) > That opening up has had long-lasting benefits. > > So, I think your comments are mostly but not entirely true. We may be able > to gain more value (apart from simple enjoyment/joy/engagement -- also > worthy outcomes) from mind-altering drugs if we (a) could design them with > greater specificity, and (b) had a much better understanding of how they > would affect any specific individual. > > On the latter: Many people apparently have wonderfully enjoyable > experiences on MDMA (unless they overdose or combine in stupid ways). I did > not. In fact, I had some truly emotionally horrible experiences on the few > occasions that I tried it. (Was it the substance? Was it the time in my > life? I don't know.) That's interesting, because my LSD experiences were > almost all good to fantastically great, with only one or two not-good (but > not bad) occasions. (I think the least enjoyable was going to a Grateful > Dead concert in LA -- I was not familiar with their music -- at a time when > I really wasn't in a good mood.) > > I'm surprised I'm commenting at this length... The topic takes me back. > [Not a flashback!] > > --Max > ?If you have not had any experience with Attribution Theory, in my area of social psychology, look into it a bit. There appear to be numerous ways in which we can go wrong in assessing the personalities and intentions of other people we observe.? ? Then there's self-attribution: the many ways in which what we attribute our own actions and thoughts to can become irrational or just plain wrong. We look for causes for our own behaviors as well as the behaviors of others and can make the same mistakes. Also look into state-dependent memory?: the ability to recall correctly a memory can heavily depend on the chemical state of your brain when the memory was implanted. Example: the best time to remember a dream is either immediately when you wake up, or when you are going to sleep the next night - your brain is returning to the state when the experience happened. Can't remember what happened when you were drunk? Get drunk again and try. So - trying to recall just what you thought or even did when your brain is in a very different state than normal, becomes a problem at the very least. You are adding to the usual problems of memory recall, which are legion. (I won't ask you to Google these, as they are just too numerous to take in) ?Now I am not contradicting Max or anyone else. I am just saying that there are huge problems here of making sense of everyday experience, much less experiences on drugs (or even 'normal' highs), and even more problematic when you try to piece together events of years past. The memory changes every time you recall it. Ever go to a high school reunion and argue about who did what to whom and why? It's a laugh. All of these things are proved in hundreds of studies.? ?Could it have been? Yes. It also could have been something entirely different. bill w? On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that insights >>> regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as Adrian >>> says: nothing brilliant. >>> Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when >>> stoned. >>> >> >> Exactly right. And I'm not suggesting they're invalid: the sensory >> impressions are indeed more vivid. Just...they don't actually produce >> better results for anything you want to matter to anyone outside your own >> mind. >> >> Assuming radiotelepathy (brain to brain communication at some level >> deeper than language, via electronics wired to the brain and linked via >> radio/wire/whatever electronic bridge) was a thing, what would happen if >> one of a pair of linked minds were to trip while the other did not, >> assuming they are sharing full sensory impressions with each other and >> started the experiment already used to this connection? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > > -- > > Max More, PhD > Strategic Philosopher > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:35:54 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:35:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, BillK wrote: > This App Monitors Bee Flight To Warn When Something's Amiss > > < > http://www.fastcoexist.com/3054207/this-app-monitors-bee-flight-to-warn-when-somethings-amiss > > > That's really cool. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how useful it's going to be. Wiring power and data to most bee yards is going to be tricky, and at $300/pop, it's too expensive for widespread deployment. Monitoring only one hive per yard would be cheaper, but, unfortunately, hives are pretty independent, so the hive you're watching might be doing great while several others are going belly up. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:17:45 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:17:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Drugs and creativity/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <7DA5AE2D-1772-42B8-A1F2-70B6EC197728@gmail.com> On Dec 15, 2015, at 7:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Max More wrote: >> Adrian: It's hard for me to assess your dismissive claim about insights while under the influence of drugs, partly because it's not clear to me whether you are talking about one or two drugs that you are most familiar with, or all drugs. (There are *hundreds* of mind-altering drugs, if not thousands, that we already know of.) >> >> These days, I have too many and too consistent and persistent responsibilities to experiment with major mind-altering substances. In my 20s and early 30s, however, I became very "experienced" (in the Jim Morrison sense). Back in April 1989, I wrote a (now) slightly embarrassing and over-enthusiastic piece called "Psychedelics and Mind Expansion", published in Extropy #3. (Good luck googling that. Pre-Web!) I'm pretty sure that you are *mostly* correct. I do recall two separate LSD experiences. In one, I "realized" that the core of reality is unity. In another, I "realized" that the core of reality is duality. >> >> On the other hand, I can say for sure that LSD enabled me to experience things (music, interactions with people, and interactions with nature) in ways I never had before, and that have continued to have (positive if occasional) effects since. For instance, I found myself (contrary to my then-highly reserved nature) talking to and *seeing* people like the postman and a grocery store clerk in ways that I never had before. In addition, while I would not recommend over-indulgence with THC, I have no doubt that it enabled me to overcome some deep-rooted emotional blockages that led me to talk to someone very close to me about a critical issue that I never been able to broach before. (Again, this was late-1980s/early 90s.) That opening up has had long-lasting benefits. >> >> So, I think your comments are mostly but not entirely true. We may be able to gain more value (apart from simple enjoyment/joy/engagement -- also worthy outcomes) from mind-altering drugs if we (a) could design them with greater specificity, and (b) had a much better understanding of how they would affect any specific individual. >> >> On the latter: Many people apparently have wonderfully enjoyable experiences on MDMA (unless they overdose or combine in stupid ways). I did not. In fact, I had some truly emotionally horrible experiences on the few occasions that I tried it. (Was it the substance? Was it the time in my life? I don't know.) That's interesting, because my LSD experiences were almost all good to fantastically great, with only one or two not-good (but not bad) occasions. (I think the least enjoyable was going to a Grateful Dead concert in LA -- I was not familiar with their music -- at a time when I really wasn't in a good mood.) >> >> I'm surprised I'm commenting at this length... The topic takes me back. [Not a flashback!] > > ?If you have not had any experience with Attribution Theory, in my area of social psychology, look into it a bit. There appear to be numerous ways in which we can go wrong in assessing the personalities and intentions of other people we observe.? ? Then there's self-attribution: the many ways in which what we attribute our own actions and thoughts to can become irrational or just plain wrong. We look for causes for our own behaviors as well as the behaviors of others and can make the same mistakes. Also look into state-dependent memory?: the ability to recall correctly a memory can heavily depend on the chemical state of your brain when the memory was implanted. Example: the best time to remember a dream is either immediately when you wake up, or when you are going to sleep the next night - your brain is returning to the state when the experience happened. Can't remember what happened when you were drunk? Get drunk again and try. > > So - trying to recall just what you thought or even did when your brain is in a very different state than normal, becomes a problem at the very least. You are adding to the usual problems of memory recall, which are legion. (I won't ask you to Google these, as they are just too numerous to take in) Why not look at studies where creativity or some other trait was measured other than by self-reporting? For instance, Google on 'drugs and creativity' and you get, for instance: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-masala/201204/cannabis-and-creativity > ?Now I am not contradicting Max or anyone else. I am just saying that there are huge problems here of making sense of everyday experience, much less experiences on drugs (or even 'normal' highs), and even more problematic when you try to piece together events of years past. The memory changes every time you recall it. Ever go to a high school reunion and argue about who did what to whom and why? It's a laugh. > > All of these things are proved in hundreds of studies.? > > ?Could it have been? Yes. It also could have been something entirely different. I think this is an active area of research. There's also the issue that the brain, when it's being creative, must be doing something chemically and that that might be modified -- altered or enhanced -- by chemicals. (This is presuming the conventional neurological model of the mind and its features being brain-based.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Dec 15 17:07:25 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:07:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > I would say I am for the abolition of democracy, as long as I get something better. Aye, but that there?s the hard part. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 18:29:13 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:29:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > > > On Dec 9, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > > I would say I am for the abolition of democracy, as long as I get > something better. > > > Aye, but that there?s the hard part. > > Tara Maya > ?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the idea, Plato) bill w? > Blog | Twitter > | Facebook > | > Amazon > | > Goodreads > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 18:57:32 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:57:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <4CA62E49-9ACB-4A8D-BB28-2CC502CB120A@gmail.com> On Dec 15, 2015, at 10:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: >> >>> On Dec 9, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> >>> I would say I am for the abolition of democracy, as long as I get something better. >> >> Aye, but that there?s the hard part. > > ?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the idea, Plato) What would happen afterward? I imagine Rome after Augustus would be the model. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 23:31:16 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:31:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 a William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > ?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the > job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. > ?"*T?* *here is no human problem which could not be solved if people would simply do as I advise*. ?" Gore Vidal ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 00:16:18 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:16:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Drugs and creativity/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <7DA5AE2D-1772-42B8-A1F2-70B6EC197728@gmail.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <7DA5AE2D-1772-42B8-A1F2-70B6EC197728@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's tough too because substances like these, particularly psychedelics, are anathema to the typical research setting such as a lab or hospital. Staying in one place or answering "normal" questions on LSD becomes anxiety- or terror-producing. But it's hardly scientific to say "take these drops and go do whatever, and let me know how it went." I think this raises an important question that I believe arises in the minds of many scientists on psychedelics when they inevitably think about the scientific study of psychedelics: is there a different route of analysis than science that can collect information on this stuff better? I think it's very possible that science isn't always, or even isn't usually, the best way to study psychedelics. So what's a better option? Spiritualists and theologers throughout history have performed their own "studies" parallel to science. I don't really believe that science needs to be replaced or given an alternate method of inquiry. However, I think it's definitely true that current science needs augmentation. This is becoming and will become more apparent as we study cosmology, relativity, and quantum physics more deeply. It's already happening--we're more and more quickly approaching a time where science doesn't have the grammar to study the new questions it has unearthed. So what needs adding? More fuzzy logic? I have no clue. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 00:48:13 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:48:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 7:36 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Bee Watch On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:40 AM, BillK > wrote: This App Monitors Bee Flight To Warn When Something's Amiss That's really cool. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how useful it's going to be. Wiring power and data to most bee yards is going to be tricky, and at $300/pop, it's too expensive for widespread deployment. Monitoring only one hive per yard would be cheaper, but, unfortunately, hives are pretty independent, so the hive you're watching might be doing great while several others are going belly up. -Dave Well ja, but I can imagine a big crowd-funding deal or research bucks being granted to set up a bunch of these to see what we can learn. As scientific instruments go, this one is a bargain. That power concern is perfectly valid, but I am envisioning a version of this which can run on battery power, perhaps a scaled-down version. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 00:55:32 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:55:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <000601d1379c$77d48fa0$677daee0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the idea, Plato) bill w? I would do that in a heartbeat BillW, but I fear that few would be satisfied with the results. I would be satisfied, but I might be alone. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 16 01:16:41 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:16:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <000601d1379c$77d48fa0$677daee0$@att.net> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> <000601d1379c$77d48fa0$677daee0$@att.net> Message-ID: <589FE88F-6058-4342-9F1B-C7771720C2D2@taramayastales.com> I?ll be honest: a drunken wombat could run a nation better than I. That is not to say that I don?t know exactly what?s wrong with the world (of course I do), but only that I admit I don?t know how to fix it. However, I?d gladly take the role of National Whining About Things, if it came with a stupendously fat salary and tenure. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 15, 2015, at 4:55 PM, spike wrote: > > ?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the idea, Plato) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 01:30:53 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:30:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <589FE88F-6058-4342-9F1B-C7771720C2D2@taramayastales.com> References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> <000601d1379c$77d48fa0$677daee0$@att.net> <589FE88F-6058-4342-9F1B-C7771720C2D2@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <002f01d137a1$6888c070$399a4150$@att.net> >>?I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the idea, Plato)? BillW From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya Subject: Re: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again >?I?ll be honest: a drunken wombat could run a nation better than I. ?Tara Maya On the contrary Tara. You wouldn?t need to set up everything. Rather you would distribute power in such a way that it works best. The US Constitution provides a guide, for the authors of that document recognized that states empowered but with competition from other states would lead to governmental excellence. Competition does that: it breeds excellence. I often get the feeling the US errs in trying to always concentrate too much power at the federal level. If they study the constitution and see the idea the founders had, set up state governments to do the heavy lifting, the Federal government do to common defense and such, then we would be much better off. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Dec 15 16:01:54 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:01:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s pandering to the more annoying trolls in his readership. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 13, 2015, at 3:52 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > > Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 04:45:14 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 20:45:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> >?Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:02 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee >?I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s pandering to the more annoying trolls in his readership. Tara Maya Hmmm, OK so read the comic strip and not the blog. I have never been to the blog and have no desire to go there. This does bring up an interesting point however. Comedy writers in general almost need to be really messed up people in order to write things they do. What you are seeing when you read their comedy is seeing their public face. There is a good argument for not peering any deeper than that level. I recall an interview with Steve Martin. He came across as a bit of a grumpy bear, but he was attempting to explain it. He has a routine he does on stage, the silly funny wild and crazy guy, etc. But the problem is that fans expect him to be that when he isn?t on stage. He tells of going to a restaurant where the waiter recognized him and went into ?Hey Steve, I hope you don?t find any boogers or toenails in your salad yurk yurk yurk?? etc. Well hell, image it. A comic can?t just go out and be a normal person. He is expected to perform his comedy routines always. He could scarcely help being grumpy. Carry over: don?t expect Scott Adams? blog to be a continuation of his Dilbert strip. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 05:24:25 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:24:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Max More wrote: > So, I think your comments are mostly but not entirely true. We may be able > to gain more value (apart from simple enjoyment/joy/engagement -- also > worthy outcomes) from mind-altering drugs if we (a) could design them with > greater specificity, and (b) had a much better understanding of how they > would affect any specific individual. > Readily agreed. As things are now, the information I have largely suggests that mind-altering drugs, if one has to make a broad general argument (and one often does in these matters, unfortunately, for any admission of nuance is too often seized upon to fabricate support for the opposite of what one claims), tend not to be useful...but it would certainly be theoretically possible, and perhaps not even all that difficult, to tailor their use and design to strictly positive use. Alas, most attempts to do so have fallen to those who abuse without care in order to make money. I suspect that designing a method to solve this problem would take policy engineering as well as biomedical, with some sort of automated enforcement (which will be highly difficult to design) to cut out the abuse even if the facilitators buy off most of the regulating people. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 05:30:11 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:30:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <284E1BC4-B86C-4D30-9965-8EE7052B6EF8@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I challenge everyone on this list to say that they would turn down the job > of running the country by fiat if it was offered to them. (thanks for the > idea, Plato) > If things got to the point that said offer could sincerely be made to me, I fear it would be an offer in name only, and I would lack a practical ability to decline. As in, not "Would you like to run the country?" but, "You're now our acting President. We'll swear you in once we have time, assuming there's anyone left to do so. Right now, we need you to..." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 06:02:31 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:02:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Mind-altering drugs Message-ID: I would like to explain that there is a reason for doing LSD at least once. A certain cult and the CIA are known to dose detractors with the stuff. If you have done LSD, you know what is happening. If not, well, the effects can be really awful. I can think of a couple of cases where this was done to people and in one case the person was more or less permanently disabled and in the other, she was confined to a mental institution for over a year. Final case, he spent a sleepless night but knew he had been dosed (they put it in toothpaste) and suffered no lasting harm. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 07:03:36 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:03:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> <7DA5AE2D-1772-42B8-A1F2-70B6EC197728@gmail.com> Message-ID: <756175AD-524D-4680-8A80-7AC2F7103749@gmail.com> On Dec 15, 2015, at 4:16 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > It's tough too because substances like these, particularly psychedelics, are anathema to the typical research setting such as a lab or hospital. Staying in one place or answering "normal" questions on LSD becomes anxiety- or terror-producing. But it's hardly scientific to say "take these drops and go do whatever, and let me know how it went." > I think this raises an important question that I believe arises in the minds of many scientists on psychedelics when they inevitably think about the scientific study of psychedelics: is there a different route of analysis than science that can collect information on this stuff better? > > I think it's very possible that science isn't always, or even isn't usually, the best way to study psychedelics. So what's a better option? Spiritualists and theologers throughout history have performed their own "studies" parallel to science. > > I don't really believe that science needs to be replaced or given an alternate method of inquiry. However, I think it's definitely true that current science needs augmentation. This is becoming and will become more apparent as we study cosmology, relativity, and quantum physics more deeply. It's already happening--we're more and more quickly approaching a time where science doesn't have the grammar to study the new questions it has unearthed. > > So what needs adding? More fuzzy logic? I have no clue. > Did you read the article I cited? Seems to say they did test creativity for one drug and found it was increased. I wouldn't say empirical science is the only way to arrive at knowledge, though I'm deeply, even brutally suspicious of spiritual and theological approach. Yes, there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and also many that don't lead there. I'm not saying we should amputate the wrong paths -- just trying to caution people about the steep cliffs. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 07:09:19 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:09:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief?/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again Message-ID: On Dec 15, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > I?ll be honest: a drunken wombat could run a nation better than I. > > That is not to say that I don?t know exactly what?s wrong with the world (of course I do), but only that I admit I don?t know how to fix it. > > However, I?d gladly take the role of National Whining About Things, if it came with a stupendously fat salary and tenure. You're reminding me of how random stock picks often outperform over the long term ones chosen by some rigorous method or some hotshot fund manager. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 07:18:54 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:18:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:45 PM, spike wrote: > > >?Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tara Maya > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:02 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee > > >?I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s pandering to the more annoying trolls in his readership. > > Tara Maya > > > Hmmm, OK so read the comic strip and not the blog. I have never been to the blog and have no desire to go there. > > This does bring up an interesting point however. Comedy writers in general almost need to be really messed up people in order to write things they do. What you are seeing when you read their comedy is seeing their public face. There is a good argument for not peering any deeper than that level. > > I recall an interview with Steve Martin. He came across as a bit of a grumpy bear, but he was attempting to explain it. He has a routine he does on stage, the silly funny wild and crazy guy, etc. But the problem is that fans expect him to be that when he isn?t on stage. He tells of going to a restaurant where the waiter recognized him and went into ?Hey Steve, I hope you don?t find any boogers or toenails in your salad yurk yurk yurk?? etc. > > Well hell, image it. A comic can?t just go out and be a normal person. He is expected to perform his comedy routines always. He could scarcely help being grumpy. > > Carry over: don?t expect Scott Adams? blog to be a continuation of his Dilbert strip. You're right in a way. Yes, we should expect entertainers to be the same off stage, etc. But there can still be moral judgements made here. A comedian who wants to relax and have a nice meal at a restaurant and not continue his stand up act is not exactly the same as them writing a blog about various topics. Yes, it's silly to expect their act to continue from one medium to the next. But we can still say, "Hey, I love their comedy, but their views on X, Y, and Z are screwy." (I haven't read the particular blog, though I enjoy the comic strip. But then reading a comic strip is really low investment, and I rarely put any time into reading blogs regularly. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 07:18:48 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 07:18:48 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> Message-ID: On 16 December 2015 at 00:48, spike wrote: > Well ja, but I can imagine a big crowd-funding deal or research bucks being > granted to set up a bunch of these to see what we can learn. As scientific > instruments go, this one is a bargain. That power concern is perfectly > valid, but I am envisioning a version of this which can run on battery > power, perhaps a scaled-down version. > The project appears to be in the very early stages. The Kickstarter program was only asking for 8,000 USD, which they have reached. The website says they have a small 15 hive pilot project running and want to expand to add another 30 hives. At present they need a 120volt supply and a good Wifi signal for uploading video, so they are aiming at backyard and rooftop hives. They hope the price will come down if they reach mass production levels. As Dave says, the big boys have fields out in the country, far from power lines and Wifi, so further development will be required to cater for them. Still, it's a hopeful start. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:30:31 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:30:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well hell, image it. A comic can?t just go out and be a normal person. He is expected to perform his comedy routines always. He could scarcely help being grumpy. It just seems that many people cannot get their heads around the idea that actors are acting. There are stories by soap opera stars about getting fan mail congratulating them on the baby they had on the TV show. Some want to know what the actors are like in real life. How would we ever know? They are actors! They can put over whatever image they want. Sometimes the studios and PR people are in charge of the image. One man reported that his dad got disgusted and totally quit his hero worship of John Wayne when he found out that he wore a wig, did not do his own stunts, and wasn't even named John Wayne! How easily we are fooled by very superficial images. (No, of course not us!) I wonder when the last time was when we elected a President who did not have a public relations firm designing his outfits, hair style, his body language, the wording of his opinions, and so on. "Ask not what you can do for your country......" Kennedy wrote that? Nah - speechwriter. bill w On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 15, 2015, at 8:45 PM, spike wrote: > > > > >?Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott > Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > ] *On Behalf Of *Tara Maya > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 15, 2015 8:02 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee > > > > >?I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his > blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s pandering > to the more annoying trolls in his readership. > > > > Tara Maya > > > > > > Hmmm, OK so read the comic strip and not the blog. I have never been to > the blog and have no desire to go there. > > > > This does bring up an interesting point however. Comedy writers in > general almost need to be really messed up people in order to write things > they do. What you are seeing when you read their comedy is seeing their > public face. There is a good argument for not peering any deeper than that > level. > > > > I recall an interview with Steve Martin. He came across as a bit of a > grumpy bear, but he was attempting to explain it. He has a routine he does > on stage, the silly funny wild and crazy guy, etc. But the problem is that > fans expect him to be that when he isn?t on stage. He tells of going to a > restaurant where the waiter recognized him and went into ?Hey Steve, I hope > you don?t find any boogers or toenails in your salad yurk yurk yurk?? etc. > > > > Well hell, image it. A comic can?t just go out and be a normal person. > He is expected to perform his comedy routines always. He could scarcely > help being grumpy. > > > > Carry over: don?t expect Scott Adams? blog to be a continuation of his > Dilbert strip. > > > You're right in a way. Yes, we should expect entertainers to be the same > off stage, etc. But there can still be moral judgements made here. A > comedian who wants to relax and have a nice meal at a restaurant and not > continue his stand up act is not exactly the same as them writing a blog > about various topics. Yes, it's silly to expect their act to continue from > one medium to the next. But we can still say, "Hey, I love their comedy, > but their views on X, Y, and Z are screwy." (I haven't read the particular > blog, though I enjoy the comic strip. But then reading a comic strip is > really low investment, and I rarely put any time into reading blogs > regularly. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 15:41:06 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 07:41:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> Message-ID: <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 11:19 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Bee Watch On 16 December 2015 at 00:48, spike wrote: >>... Well ja, but I can imagine a big crowd-funding deal or research bucks > being granted to set up a bunch of these to see what we can learn. As > scientific instruments go, this one is a bargain. That power concern > is perfectly valid, but I am envisioning a version of this which can > run on battery power, perhaps a scaled-down version. > >...The project appears to be in the very early stages. ...As Dave says, the big boys have fields out in the country, far from power lines and Wifi, so further development will be required to cater for them...Still, it's a hopeful start. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja it is a good start. Of all the bee yards I have seen, at least several dozen, I don't recall any of them having plug power. But electronic equipment takes wall power and transforms it down to sip just a tiny amount of energy. My notion is that we can use a car battery and a low end cell phone. I can imagine using the camera and processor in the phone and do low-end stuff, such as count of arrivals vs exits, or activity around a known pollen source and so forth. Big picture stuff, this is a dream: having computers watch wildlife. They could see stuff we cannot, because wildlife knows we are there and generally does not like us. Bees don't care, most birds don't. But most other beasts will get scarce before you arrive. I think they can smell humans on trails and get on out of Dodge. I would like to set up cameras cheaply enough, perhaps based on GoPro or old cell phones, to watch for beasts moving and doing. I have watched birds for most of my long life, yet even now I often see behaviors I had never witnessed. It stands to reason beasts occasionally do things when no one is around, and perhaps only a few hundred living people have ever seen that behavior, but no one would believe them if they told of it, so they don't. I have seen beasts do things I don't even bother to tell for it sounds too outrageous. spike From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 16 16:07:02 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:07:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief?/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise would be punished.) This still would work best if power were devolved as much as possible, on as many issues as possible, to the most localized form of governance possible. (Federation should be a real thing, not just of states but of counties within states and cities within counties). Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 15, 2015, at 11:09 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > On Dec 15, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: >> I?ll be honest: a drunken wombat could run a nation better than I. >> >> That is not to say that I don?t know exactly what?s wrong with the world (of course I do), but only that I admit I don?t know how to fix it. >> >> However, I?d gladly take the role of National Whining About Things, if it came with a stupendously fat salary and tenure. > > You're reminding me of how random stock picks often outperform over the long term ones chosen by some rigorous method or some hotshot fund manager. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:11:46 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:41 AM, spike wrote: > Ja it is a good start. Of all the bee yards I have seen, at least several > dozen, I don't recall any of them having plug power. But electronic > equipment takes wall power and transforms it down to sip just a tiny amount > of energy. My notion is that we can use a car battery and a low end cell > phone. I can imagine using the camera and processor in the phone and do > low-end stuff, such as count of arrivals vs exits, or activity around a > known pollen source and so forth. > I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras that talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station would be the way to go. I've got a security camera system (Arlo) that uses battery-powered cameras and a security system (SimpliSafe) that uses battery-powered wifi-connect sensors to talk to a GSM-connected base station, so many of the components needed are already on the shelf. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:13:05 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:13:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise would be punished.) > > This still would work best if power were devolved as much as possible, on as many issues as possible, to the most localized form of governance possible. (Federation should be a real thing, not just of states but of counties within states and cities within counties). I've read about sortition before, and it sounds like it might fix some problems, such as influence peddling. See: https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_03_2_knag.pdf Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 16 16:28:55 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:28:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: You?re right, of course. Artistic works should be judged on their own merits and not based on one?s opinion of the artist. But it?s hard to do. I still enjoy the comics. I just don?t find as much pleasure in the blog anymore. It does make me fear being too open about my own opinions in public fora, because I know that my political opinions are unlikely to find support of either the Left or the Right. So I?d alienate everyone. And to what purpose? Maybe it?s better just to express myself through fiction. But then again, every now and again, I feel like pontificating just for the fun of it. And why not? So I teeter-tooter on this... Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 15, 2015, at 11:18 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > You're right in a way. Yes, we should expect entertainers to be the same off stage, etc. But there can still be moral judgements made here. A comedian who wants to relax and have a nice meal at a restaurant and not continue his stand up act is not exactly the same as them writing a blog about various topics. Yes, it's silly to expect their act to continue from one medium to the next. But we can still say, "Hey, I love their comedy, but their views on X, Y, and Z are screwy." (I haven't read the particular blog, though I enjoy the comic strip. But then reading a comic strip is really low investment, and I rarely put any time into reading blogs regularly. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!;) > > Regards, > > Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:37:26 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:37:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:11 AM, Dave Sill wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:41 AM, spike wrote: >> Ja it is a good start. Of all the bee yards I have seen, at least several >> dozen, I don't recall any of them having plug power. But electronic >> equipment takes wall power and transforms it down to sip just a tiny amount >> of energy. My notion is that we can use a car battery and a low end cell >> phone. I can imagine using the camera and processor in the phone and do >> low-end stuff, such as count of arrivals vs exits, or activity around a >> known pollen source and so forth. > > I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras that talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station would be the way to go. I've got a security camera system (Arlo) that uses battery-powered cameras and a security system (SimpliSafe) that uses battery-powered wifi-connect sensors to talk to a GSM-connected base station, so many of the components needed are already on the shelf. Does every last give even need to be watched? Wouldn't a good small randomized sample tell us much for a given area? That might bring the cost down, especially if, say, only 2% of hives in a region can tell us about the overall status of all the hives in the same area. (Ditto for monitoring other species.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:43:02 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:43:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief?/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered > might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, > rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible > citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and > coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could > not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like > the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise > would be punished.) > What about issues where specific technical expertise is needed to make a good decision? (Admittedly, that's not entirely solved in the current system either.) More importantly, what about cases where a majority of the 12 represent views opposite the majority of the population, and take measures to extend their reign? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:54:16 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:54:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered > might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, > rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible > citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and > coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could > not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like > the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise > would be punished.) > > How about public consensus to break ties? I've read about sortition before, and it sounds like it might fix some > problems, such as influence peddling. See: > > https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_03_2_knag.pdf > This passage from that paper gives me an idea: "The earnest voter might be pardoned for feeling, during the throes of a presidential campaign, that the best outcome would be for the two candidates to stop their electioneering, engage in a manly duel, and shoot each other dead." What if we keep the current system, but any candidate running for president faces a coin toss for life/death if they lose? :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:58:24 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:58:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Does every last give even need to be watched? Wouldn't a good small > randomized sample tell us much for a given area? That might bring the cost > down, especially if, say, only 2% of hives in a region can tell us about > the overall status of all the hives in the same area. (Ditto for monitoring > other species.) > That depends upon the purpose of the monitoring. If you're looking for a measure of regional health, then spot checking is fine. If you're looking to reduce the beekeeper's workload and identify problems as quickly as possible, then, yes, you want to monitor all the hives in the bee yard. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 17:07:49 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:07:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b801d13824$4bc89630$e359c290$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 6:31 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee >>?Well hell, image it. A comic can?t just go out and be a normal person. He is expected to perform his comedy routines always? >?It just seems that many people cannot get their heads around the idea that actors are acting?I wonder when the last time was when we elected a President who did not have a public relations firm designing his outfits, hair style, his body language, the wording of his opinions, and so on. ?bill w Ja, and which POTUS was best at delivering the script-writers? lines? Reagan. Which POTUS often or usually went off script and just uttered whatever he thought? 43. Now we have a POTUS who is considered a great speaker if he reads the script, but steps in it whenever that teleprompter is down. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 16 17:24:23 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:24:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief?/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <45CCC4BB-E0E2-4A42-A620-D0840149D776@taramayastales.com> I see this as replacing our Executive (President), in the context of other forms of our government remaining consistent. So there would still be a Constitution, a Senate and a House. The council would be subject to the law, not above the law. I think it would be easier for a council to educate itself on technical issues, from testimony of experts, than for an electorate trying to vote on individual laws. Lawyers usually write those laws in such a way as to confuse the hurried voter, but it would be harder to easily bamboozle those who have the time to study the issue at greater leisure. Checks and balances would still be in the system, and change would still proceed slowly. (Undoubtedly, this would be the main source of complaint about it from all sides, as it would mean that no one side ever gets its way?but that?s true of any good goveranance system). Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:43 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Tara Maya > wrote: > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise would be punished.) > > What about issues where specific technical expertise is needed to make a good decision? (Admittedly, that's not entirely solved in the current system either.) > > More importantly, what about cases where a majority of the 12 represent views opposite the majority of the population, and take measures to extend their reign? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Dec 16 17:26:33 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:26:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <24367F7D-D6B4-4976-B528-440806858475@taramayastales.com> I think the stakes in a presidential campaign should be lowered, not raised. Higher stakes encourage corruption, cheating and violence. How much more so if life and death were on the line. Who could blame a person for lying and cheating and vote stealing if failure meant he would widow his wife and orphan his children?! Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > > This passage from that paper gives me an idea: > > "The earnest voter might be pardoned for feeling, during the throes of a presidential campaign, that the best outcome would be for the two candidates to stop their electioneering, engage in a manly duel, and shoot each other dead." > > What if we keep the current system, but any candidate running for president faces a coin toss for life/death if they lose? :-) > > -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 17:37:02 2015 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:37:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: <24367F7D-D6B4-4976-B528-440806858475@taramayastales.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> <24367F7D-D6B4-4976-B528-440806858475@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > I think the stakes in a presidential campaign should be lowered, not > raised. I did use a smiley, but as long as the perceived reward for winning is high and the perceived downside for losing is low, as it is now, it encourages lots of fools to enter the race. But, yes, I agree: the stakes should be lowered. Dramatically cutting the power of the federal government, and the President, as a result, would help. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 17:26:14 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:26:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: <00e601d13826$de5cee40$9b16cac0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 8:12 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Bee Watch On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:41 AM, spike > wrote: Ja it is a good start. Of all the bee yards I have seen, at least several dozen, I don't recall any of them having plug power? >?I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras that talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station would be the way to go. ? components needed are already on the shelf. -Dave Ja that should work. The camper crowd has created a market for small solar panels good for keeping deep cell batteries charged. A motorcycle battery of about 10 amp-hrs and a solar panel about 20 cm on a side should be plenty of power to run a camera and a phone. You don?t need an IR illumination source for this particular application because bees will not fly when it is dark. For wildlife observation, where most of it happens at night, we could use motion detecting IR illumination. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 17:48:27 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:48:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: <00eb01d13829$f91da820$eb58f860$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras that talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station would be the way to go? Dave Sill >?Does every last give even need to be watched? Wouldn't a good small randomized sample tell us much for a given area? ?Regards, Dan Ja. One of the biggest challenges facing beekeepers today is theft of hives. The best bee sites are often way out where they cannot be watched. Thieves know that bees are docile at night, so they are easily stolen just by dropping a garbage bag over the hive and off they go. Stolen bee hives are easily disguised or placed where they can never be found. So perhaps we could somehow dual-purpose the hive-watching equipment as anti-theft devices. Then perhaps the sheriff can scare up donations or get the county government to offer a reasonable grant, since it costs county law enforcement money to deal with bee theft. If they catch the bastards, perhaps the judge can arrange to use the fine or bail to underwrite bee-watching equipment (they do that when they catch taggers: use the fines to pay for painting over the graffiti. (Besides that, it strokes my sense of justice to have fines from bee thieves used to pay for equipment to catch bee thieves.)) Then we figure out a way to do video sampling off of the crime-stopper equipment to study beehive activity, perhaps to get clues for early detection and control of Varroa mites, which reduce hive activity. It might also have some kind of signal when the bees are finding insufficient nutrition, such as time/temperature patterns in the entry/exit counts. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 16 17:58:21 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:58:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: <012001d1382b$5aacac70$10060550$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 8:58 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Bee Watch On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: Does every last give even need to be watched? Wouldn't a good small randomized sample tell us much for a given area? That might bring the cost down, especially if, say, only 2% of hives in a region can tell us about the overall status of all the hives in the same area. (Ditto for monitoring other species.) >?That depends upon the purpose of the monitoring. If you're looking for a measure of regional health, then spot checking is fine. If you're looking to reduce the beekeeper's workload and identify problems as quickly as possible, then, yes, you want to monitor all the hives in the bee yard. -Dave Ja. The beekeepers hired me not for my muscles but for my eyes. I was the only one of the crew who could see Varroa mites with unaided vision. Neither of the guys I worked for could see them even with a magnifying glass. If you have one infected hive in a bee yard, eventually it will spread to all of them. But if you catch it early you can haul that one hive away into quarantine and save the rest. If we could figure out a way to use cell phones and some kind of detection device cheap enough to instrument all the hives in a bee yard (which can be anywhere from one to a couple hundred hives) that would be a trick. Perhaps something as simple as a microphone with some kind of specialized filtering and a Bluetooth connection to one cell phone, which reports status of all the hives might work? If a hive could report sampled and Fourier filtered SPLs to a phone, which could process it and put it into a spreadsheet, then email that out every 10 minutes? Electronics hipsters, what we you need besides a microphone and a cell phone which can receive signals from a couple dozen different Bluetooth devices? Wouldn?t that be the entire hardware cost? Then the rest would be clever software? What is the range of a Bluetooth microphone? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 19:04:06 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:04:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: <47C4FA72-6BBC-492F-A2E3-C935B2671BFD@gmail.com> On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:58 AM, Dave Sill wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> Does every last give even need to be watched? Wouldn't a good small randomized sample tell us much for a given area? That might bring the cost down, especially if, say, only 2% of hives in a region can tell us about the overall status of all the hives in the same area. (Ditto for monitoring other species.) > > That depends upon the purpose of the monitoring. If you're looking for a measure of regional health, then spot checking is fine. If you're looking to reduce the beekeeper's workload and identify problems as quickly as possible, then, yes, you want to monitor all the hives in the bee yard. It might be a good start though. Could, for instance, spread the costs of monitoring around to many beekeepers. For sure, it's. It as precise as monitoring each hive, but it could warn all the beekeepers in an area about overall trends. And as the technology rolls out, the familiarity will go up and the price'll go down, no? And folks toying around at the tech at the regional level might come up with more applications sooner. (Of course, right, if every beekeeper had one, even more so, though at a much higher initial cost.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 20:23:30 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:23:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <00b801d13824$4bc89630$e359c290$@att.net> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <004201d137bc$8f1ae9a0$ad50bce0$@att.net> <875F18DF-2011-4654-B24A-12F35B8358B5@gmail.com> <00b801d13824$4bc89630$e359c290$@att.net> Message-ID: It also depends on how reprehensible their actions or opinions are. I happen to love Woody Allen, and I don't think his flaws are terrible (assuming the pedophilia accusation against him is a fabricated attack, which I lean towards.) If he was a neonazi, I might have a harder time. Scott Adams' views are, to me, the epitome of misplaced 'beta male' aggression towards women, the same that caused the Elliott Rodgers shooting spree, the gamergate or men's rights movements, reactionary views on reproductive rights, the proliferation of the use as an anti-female slur of words like bitch, slut, whore, cunt, frigid, etc. His words are the ultimate facepalm representing a very sad misappropriation of disappointment and anger, and because of the representative nature of those words, and the implied societally harmful views they espouse, I feel extra strongly about the condemnation. I think, in a utilitarian sense, his posts are very bad, akin to the xenophobic (did we make that new word yet?) demagoguery of Donald Trump. That's just my two satoshi. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From connor_flexman at brown.edu Thu Dec 17 02:24:40 2015 From: connor_flexman at brown.edu (Flexman, Connor) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:24:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > It's tough too because substances like these, particularly psychedelics, > are anathema to the typical research setting such as a lab or hospital. > Staying in one place or answering "normal" questions on LSD becomes > anxiety- or terror-producing. But it's hardly scientific to say "take > these drops and go do whatever, and let me know how it went." > > I think this raises an important question that I believe arises in the > minds of many scientists on psychedelics when they inevitably think about > the scientific study of psychedelics: is there a different route of > analysis than science that can collect information on this stuff better? > > I think it's very possible that science isn't always, or even isn't > usually, the best way to study psychedelics. So what's a better option? > Spiritualists and theologers throughout history have performed their own > "studies" parallel to science. > > I don't really believe that science needs to be replaced or given an > alternate method of inquiry. However, I think it's definitely true that > current science needs augmentation. This is becoming and will become more > apparent as we study cosmology, relativity, and quantum physics more > deeply. It's already happening--we're more and more quickly approaching a > time where science doesn't have the grammar to study the new questions it > has unearthed. > > So what needs adding? More fuzzy logic? I have no clue. > I agree we should aim to think about it more as an expansion of science than a replacement. I am always somewhat wary of framing things as a "shortcoming" of science, because this usually promotes a no-holds-barred dogpile of speculation and unsubstantiated claims. I'm interested in what specific cases you find need augmentation though. At first glance, I felt like I agreed, but upon closer inspection I'm less sure. It's not scientific to take drops and do whatever, but such a setup is pretty close to a case study, already within the realm of science. A slight modification to your procedure by doing repeated trials, monitoring them via camera (though perhaps not good for the paranoia aspect of some hallucinogens), or randomizing a placebo puts you in position to understand things much better. Add EEGs or whatever brain scan you can make mobile and you could collect even more firm data. If you define science as RCTs, you're pretty much there with a few modifications; but if you define science as forming hypotheses and then testing and refining them through whatever measures are most realistic, then it's science from the beginning, and is just low on the 1d quality line until you put things on a more rigorous footing. Similarly, cosmology and quantum physics seem to be slowly producing the necessary grammars for study as they clear new ground. (I don't know of any parts of relativity that are outside science.) The anthropic principle has been around for decades in cosmology, and quantum physics has been having issues with what is meant by an "observer" for almost a century. Despite substantial griping about how (some versions of) these things are scientifically ill-defined and how reflectivity issues may put them out of the realm of science, we seem to be slowly enveloping them in the fold and growing our grammar to accommodate them. Anthropic considerations are being added to decision theory , while the need for defined observers is even potentially absolved completely by this use of anthropics . I do realize that sometimes people think too narrowly about what should be contained under the umbrella of science, envisioning gold standards of pristine white lab conditions and deterministic equations. However, the broader, dirty version of science, more along the lines of 1. collecting data from the world while adjusting for confounders and extracting relevant signal as best one can; 2. determining what that data implies about how the world works using the best heuristical versions of Bayesian reasoning; seems like it primarily covers all of the cases you mention. Are there other cases that request augmentations to science more forcefully, which I am not thinking of? Connor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Dec 17 08:51:39 2015 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 01:51:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I am quite familiar with attribution theory and state-dependent memory (and have been for years or decades). On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 8:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?? > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Max More wrote: > >> Adrian: It's hard for me to assess your dismissive claim about insights >> while under the influence of drugs, partly because it's not clear to me >> whether you are talking about one or two drugs that you are most familiar >> with, or all drugs. (There are *hundreds* of mind-altering drugs, if not >> thousands, that we already know of.) >> >> These days, I have too many and too consistent and persistent >> responsibilities to experiment with major mind-altering substances. In my >> 20s and early 30s, however, I became very "experienced" (in the Jim >> Morrison sense). Back in April 1989, I wrote a (now) slightly embarrassing >> and over-enthusiastic piece called "Psychedelics and Mind Expansion", >> published in *Extropy *#3. (Good luck googling that. Pre-Web!) I'm >> pretty sure that you are *mostly* correct. I do recall two separate LSD >> experiences. In one, I "realized" that the core of reality is unity. In >> another, I "realized" that the core of reality is duality. >> >> On the other hand, I can say for sure that LSD enabled me to experience >> things (music, interactions with people, and interactions with nature) in >> ways I never had before, and that have continued to have (positive if >> occasional) effects since. For instance, I found myself (contrary to my >> then-highly reserved nature) talking to and *seeing* people like the >> postman and a grocery store clerk in ways that I never had before. In >> addition, while I would not recommend over-indulgence with THC, I have no >> doubt that it enabled me to overcome some deep-rooted emotional blockages >> that led me to talk to someone very close to me about a critical issue that >> I never been able to broach before. (Again, this was late-1980s/early 90s.) >> That opening up has had long-lasting benefits. >> >> So, I think your comments are mostly but not entirely true. We may be >> able to gain more value (apart from simple enjoyment/joy/engagement -- also >> worthy outcomes) from mind-altering drugs if we (a) could design them with >> greater specificity, and (b) had a much better understanding of how they >> would affect any specific individual. >> >> On the latter: Many people apparently have wonderfully enjoyable >> experiences on MDMA (unless they overdose or combine in stupid ways). I did >> not. In fact, I had some truly emotionally horrible experiences on the few >> occasions that I tried it. (Was it the substance? Was it the time in my >> life? I don't know.) That's interesting, because my LSD experiences were >> almost all good to fantastically great, with only one or two not-good (but >> not bad) occasions. (I think the least enjoyable was going to a Grateful >> Dead concert in LA -- I was not familiar with their music -- at a time when >> I really wasn't in a good mood.) >> >> I'm surprised I'm commenting at this length... The topic takes me back. >> [Not a flashback!] >> >> --Max >> > > ?If you have not had any experience with Attribution Theory, in my area of > social psychology, look into it a bit. There appear to be numerous ways in > which we can go wrong in assessing the personalities and intentions of > other people we observe.? > > ? Then there's self-attribution: the many ways in which what we attribute > our own actions and thoughts to can become irrational or just plain wrong. > We look for causes for our own behaviors as well as the behaviors of others > and can make the same mistakes. Also look into state-dependent memory?: > the ability to recall correctly a memory can heavily depend on the chemical > state of your brain when the memory was implanted. Example: the best time > to remember a dream is either immediately when you wake up, or when you are > going to sleep the next night - your brain is returning to the state when > the experience happened. Can't remember what happened when you were > drunk? Get drunk again and try. > > So - trying to recall just what you thought or even did when your brain is > in a very different state than normal, becomes a problem at the very > least. You are adding to the usual problems of memory recall, which are > legion. (I won't ask you to > Google these, as they are just too numerous to take in) > ?Now I am not contradicting Max or anyone else. I am just saying that > there are huge problems here of making sense of everyday experience, much > less experiences on drugs (or even 'normal' highs), and even more > problematic when you try to piece together events of years past. The > memory changes every time you recall it. Ever go to a high school reunion > and argue about who did what to whom and why? It's a laugh. > > All of these things are proved in hundreds of studies.? > > > ?Could it have been? Yes. It also could have been something entirely > different. > > bill w? > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:08 AM, William Flynn Wallace < >>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't think that is anything invalid about these, except that >>>> insights regarding understanding of the universe usually turn out to be as >>>> Adrian says: nothing brilliant. >>>> Often wacky. Disappointing compared to our feelings for them when >>>> stoned. >>>> >>> >>> Exactly right. And I'm not suggesting they're invalid: the sensory >>> impressions are indeed more vivid. Just...they don't actually produce >>> better results for anything you want to matter to anyone outside your own >>> mind. >>> >>> Assuming radiotelepathy (brain to brain communication at some level >>> deeper than language, via electronics wired to the brain and linked via >>> radio/wire/whatever electronic bridge) was a thing, what would happen if >>> one of a pair of linked minds were to trip while the other did not, >>> assuming they are sharing full sensory impressions with each other and >>> started the experiment already used to this connection? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Max More, PhD >> Strategic Philosopher >> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader >> President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 10:31:41 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:31:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: On 16 December 2015 at 16:11, Dave Sill wrote: > I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras that > talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station would be the way > to go. I've got a security camera system (Arlo) that uses battery-powered > cameras and a security system (SimpliSafe) that uses battery-powered > wifi-connect sensors to talk to a GSM-connected base station, so many of the > components needed are already on the shelf. > Yes, cameras and a GSM base station all with rechargeable batteries and solar panels should work OK. Bluetooth connections can be up to 300 feet (with good conditions and greater power requirements). Special equipment can extend the range further. Of course the bee yard has to be in an area which gets a GSM signal, i.e. not too remote. The other problem with putting all that equipment into a remote bee yard is theft of the equipment itself. Some people might be more interested in stealing the equipment than stealing a hive. And you have to think about the cost of all that equipment compared to the cost of a hive. The startup of cheap and simple for backyard hobbyist beekeepers seems a good way to go. BillK From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 17 13:33:20 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:33:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> On 2015-12-15 17:01, Tara Maya wrote: > I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his > blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s > pandering to the more annoying trolls in his readership. Never ascribe to pandering what may be actually held views. One side effect of living in a media-aware world is that the standard accusation these days is that messages are insincere because they have been shaped to appeal to some group. This of course conflates sincerity with being a good message, and that group appeal cannot happen naturally. A bit like the previous generation's assumption that people must have been bought to hold the views they hold. - This message was brought to you by the giant neoliberal biotech American elite conspiracy, proud sponsor of transhumanism. That was at least what I was told by the French intellectuals. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 14:49:43 2015 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:49:43 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series Jason On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Dec 16, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered > might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, > rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible > citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and > coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could > not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like > the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise > would be punished.) > > This still would work best if power were devolved as much as possible, on > as many issues as possible, to the most localized form of governance > possible. (Federation should be a real thing, not just of states but of > counties within states and cities within counties). > > > I've read about sortition before, and it sounds like it might fix some > problems, such as influence peddling. See: > > https://www.independent.org/pdf/tir/tir_03_2_knag.pdf > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:28:35 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:28:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Turing Church Preaches the Religion of the Future | Motherboard Message-ID: A balanced and informative article by Andrew Paul titled ?The Turing Church Preaches the Religion of the Future,? published on Motherboard, describes the Turing Church as a transhumanist group that wants to ?curate the crowdsourcing of a techno-rapture? and ?provide a literal faith in the future.? Paul interviewed yours truly, Micah Redding, and Eliezer Yudkowsky (who declined to comment on the Turing Church). http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-turing-church-preaches-the-religion-of-the-future Excerpts: ?Based in part on the philosophy of early 20th century Russian cosmists like Nikolai Fedorov, Prisco and his supporters believe that, one day, we may, among other things, actually reach back into time through quantum weirdness and reconstitute our ?information,? thus providing, for all intents and purposes, a resurrection. Once reconstituted, we should be able to evolve into higher forms of consciousness currently incomprehensible to mortal minds and indistinguishable to our current conceptions of gods?? ?Redding is one of the founders of the Christian Transhumanist Association, a group merging millennia-old Western belief with the most innovative, global scientific progress of our generation?? ?I think a philosophy or religion should be a DIY project to build an always incomplete, flexible, work-in-progress, always evolving personal system of thought,? [Prisco] writes to me. ?Just like a free software project, which is a living project constantly revised and improved upon, released incrementally, and open to everyone to contribute?? From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Dec 17 07:26:06 2015 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:26:06 +0700 (GMT+07:00) Subject: [ExI] FOIA Fee Survey for Requesters: Help Inform the Debate on FOIA Fees Message-ID: <6112529.1450337166693.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> FOIA Fee Survey for Requesters: Help Inform the Debate on FOIA Fees Date: Dec 16, 2015 9:52 PM December 16, 2015 -- As a member of the National Security Archive's mailing list, you may be interested in helping inform the debate on FOIA fees by filling out a quick survey we have formulated on fee-related issues: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XK-c1yu8Kg_UdNHbT6fG6lnI1K_ph-qoVi-s5sjgkRk/viewform?c=0&w=1. The U.S. government's FOIA Advisory Committee recently distributed an important poll on a variety of FOIA fee issues -- however, for logistical reasons, it only surveyed federal FOIA processors. In an attempt to provide a broader picture of FOIA fees as they affect all sides of the FOIA process, the National Security Archive and the Project on Government Oversight are distributing a similar, independent, unofficial survey to non-government FOIA stakeholders so that their views on FOIA fees can be cataloged and documented. The survey parallels the FOIA Advisory Committee survey, and will remain open until January 14, 2016. The results will be made available in advance of the Committee's next meeting ???????? which will be held on January 19. We would greatly appreciate if you could take about 10 minutes to fill out the survey so we can provide the Committee with a more representative view of FOIA fees and, if possible, circulate it to other FOIA requesters. The survey is here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1XK-c1yu8Kg_UdNHbT6fG6lnI1K_ph-qoVi-s5sjgkRk/viewform?c=0&w=1 Find us on Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/NSArchive Unredacted, the Archive blog - http://nsarchive.wordpress.com/ ________________________________________________________ THE NATIONAL SECURITY ARCHIVE is an independent non-governmental research institute and library located at The George Washington University in Washington, D.C. The Archive collects and publishes declassified documents acquired through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). A tax-exempt public charity, the Archive receives no U.S. government funding; its budget is supported by publication royalties and donations from foundations and individuals. _________________________________________________________ PRIVACY NOTICE The National Security Archive does not and will never share the names or e-mail addresses of its subscribers with any other organization. Once a year, we will write you and ask for your financial support. We may also ask you for your ideas for Freedom of Information requests, documentation projects, or other issues that the Archive should take on. We would welcome your input, and any information you care to share with us about your special interests. But we do not sell or rent any information about subscribers to any other party. From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:58:28 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:58:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] [cta] The Turing Church Preaches the Religion of the Future | Motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I didn't say that, just quoted the Motherboard article... ;-) ;-) On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Lincoln Cannon wrote: > Good article! :) > > ... Eliezer, who declined to comment before offering a passive aggressive > comment that reflects poorly on his religious literacy. > > > On Thursday, December 17, 2015, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> A balanced and informative article by Andrew Paul titled ?The Turing >> Church Preaches the Religion of the Future,? published on Motherboard, >> describes the Turing Church as a transhumanist group that wants to >> ?curate the crowdsourcing of a techno-rapture? and ?provide a literal >> faith in the future.? Paul interviewed yours truly, Micah Redding, and >> Eliezer Yudkowsky (who declined to comment on the Turing Church). >> >> >> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-turing-church-preaches-the-religion-of-the-future >> >> Excerpts: >> >> ?Based in part on the philosophy of early 20th century Russian >> cosmists like Nikolai Fedorov, Prisco and his supporters believe that, >> one day, we may, among other things, actually reach back into time >> through quantum weirdness and reconstitute our ?information,? thus >> providing, for all intents and purposes, a resurrection. Once >> reconstituted, we should be able to evolve into higher forms of >> consciousness currently incomprehensible to mortal minds and >> indistinguishable to our current conceptions of gods?? >> >> ?Redding is one of the founders of the Christian Transhumanist >> Association, a group merging millennia-old Western belief with the >> most innovative, global scientific progress of our generation?? >> >> ?I think a philosophy or religion should be a DIY project to build an >> always incomplete, flexible, work-in-progress, always evolving >> personal system of thought,? [Prisco] writes to me. ?Just like a free >> software project, which is a living project constantly revised and >> improved upon, released incrementally, and open to everyone to >> contribute?? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Christian Transhumanist Association" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Christian Transhumanist Association" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Dec 17 16:01:20 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:01:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> Message-ID: <0E644777-7858-4568-97FB-E238BC54DF68@taramayastales.com> Good point, Anders. Pandering is the wrong word. Rather, it could be that by constantly interacting with people who have even more extreme opinions (the trolls in the comments are far worse), he?s slowly moved to a more extreme position that still feels like it?s ?middle of the road? because the markers have been moved. In a similar way, Trump?s extremely racist and horrid remarks are now making anyone who doesn?t want to throw out all Muslims look sane by comparison. It?s moved the conversation further toward the extreme, even for those who want to be moderate. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 17, 2015, at 5:33 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > On 2015-12-15 17:01, Tara Maya wrote: >> I?m so glad I?m not the only one disturbed by that. I?ve enjoyed his blog for a long time and it seems it?s becoming worse, as if he?s pandering to the more annoying trolls in his readership. > > Never ascribe to pandering what may be actually held views. > > > One side effect of living in a media-aware world is that the standard accusation these days is that messages are insincere because they have been shaped to appeal to some group. This of course conflates sincerity with being a good message, and that group appeal cannot happen naturally. A bit like the previous generation's assumption that people must have been bought to hold the views they hold. > > - This message was brought to you by the giant neoliberal biotech American elite conspiracy, proud sponsor of transhumanism. That was at least what I was told by the French intellectuals. > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 17 17:33:59 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:33:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> Message-ID: <008901d138f1$1da12970$58e37c50$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 2:32 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Bee Watch On 16 December 2015 at 16:11, Dave Sill wrote: >>... I think something like solar/battery-powered wifi-connected cameras > that talk to a solar/battery-powered GSM-connected base station... >so many of the components needed are already on the shelf. > >...Bluetooth connections can be up to 300 feet (with good conditions and greater power requirements). Special equipment can extend the range further...[...theft of equipment etc] ...you have to think about the cost of all that equipment compared to the cost of a hive... BillK _______________________________________________ OK here's the approximate cost breakdown. BillK, I don't know these in pounds, but last I heard two pounds was about three bucks, and a euro is a little over a dollar. A commercial beehive is usually a sturdy wooden box called a super (that's what we used to call them) about 60 cm on a side, 40 cm tall. With all the stuff inside (the wired wax foundation, the racks and things) those cost about 80 to 100 bucks each, and once filled with an established colony and a healthy queen, it is worth 300 to 400 bucks depending on how much honey is in there (the cost of that stuff is absurd for the last several years (don't buy it (I mean it, just don't do it (use jam on your... (what do you guys have, crumpets?))))) which can be as much as about 35 to 40 pounds in one super in a good year. OK so assume a prole has about 100 bucks per super and a typical bee yard has about a dozen to fifty of these depending on how much pollen is available, so a bee yard investment is typically 1k to 5k, and if it is successful and healthy, its value is perhaps triple to four times that amount. With that in mind, let us estimate a reasonable investment in surveillance equipment. One theory on why bees are generally declining is systematic undernutrition. This plausible in some areas, such as the suburbs where I live. A known problem with undernutrition is that in times of food stress, the colonies send out robbers to get honey from nearby hives. The hive under attack has defender or soldier bees. The defenders stay right with their hive and fight it out right there at the entrance. You can give a hive more defender advantage by adding an entrance reducer. Last time I was over at the Sunnyvale apiary, I noticed all the hives had reducers in place. When robber bees are doing their thing, the strongest hives go out and plunder the weakest hives. There in nature is an example of the principle that weakness is provocation. If the stronger hive manages to completely overcome the weaker hive's defenses, that super will perish completely, for the robbers will go in and slay the queen and her attendants and anyone else in there, then take all the honey, so any remaining brood will perish as well. This is a value loss of perhaps 200 to 300 bucks. When bees fight, they mean business. They don't just wrestle: if two bees engage, they don't give up. At least one of those bitches is going to die. During the battle, both bees buzz their wings, which makes a characteristic sound. We might be able to rig up a microphone with perhaps some kind of special Fourier filter which recognizes the sound of a bee fight at the entrance reducer. If we had equipment set up, perhaps a hive that was getting a lot of fights at the entrance would signal a weaken hive, alerting the beekeeper to fetch that one and quarantine it to a bee hospital, a place where there is plenty of food and no strong hives nearby. It would perhaps signal parasites, mites and such, which weakens a hive's defenses and which will spread to the healthy hives because of the fights. The strategy would be to put your strong hives together and weaker hives together where they would not attack each other. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 17 18:21:44 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:21:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: <008901d138f1$1da12970$58e37c50$@att.net> References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> <008901d138f1$1da12970$58e37c50$@att.net> Message-ID: <009d01d138f7$c91a0be0$5b4e23a0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike>... >...When bees fight, they mean business. They don't just wrestle: if two bees engage, they don't give up. At least one of those bitches is going to die... If we had equipment set up, perhaps a hive that was getting a lot of fights at the entrance would signal a weaken hive, alerting the beekeeper to fetch that one and quarantine it to a bee hospital... The strategy would be to put your strong hives together and weaker hives together where they would not attack each other...spike Writing about this gave me another idea, a possible explanation for bee decline. We know that animal behavior can change in a few dozen generations in response to a stimulus or change in conditions. A few dozen generations of bugs is not a long time, rather something easily seen in a single human lifespan. Imagine domestic bees are adapting to living in apiaries with a few dozen supers. Targets for robbing honey are right there, unlike natural hives which generally are spaced some distance apart. The robbers have constant access to the weak colonies and are right there to attack it. Perhaps we have bred bees to look around for weak hives to rob rather than go out looking for honey. This would lead to increased vectors for parasites and other diseases. Since the number of sites is limited by various factors, such as land availability, roads and so forth. Proles buying honey and paying absurd prices for it encourages beekeepers to pack more supers into the available sites, which breeds robbers, which spreads disease and weakens hives, which encourages robbers. Could we be causing the decline of bees by indirectly breeding uncooperative or adversarial strains by paying crazy prices for honey? Stop that, forthwith! he demanded. BillK, you know from biology, ja? Biology hipsters, help me here por favor. spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 19:01:36 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 19:01:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Bee Watch In-Reply-To: <009d01d138f7$c91a0be0$5b4e23a0$@att.net> References: <016b01d1379b$72762920$57627b60$@att.net> <005c01d13818$2e3b8c00$8ab2a400$@att.net> <008901d138f1$1da12970$58e37c50$@att.net> <009d01d138f7$c91a0be0$5b4e23a0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 17 December 2015 at 18:21, spike wrote: > Perhaps we have bred bees to look around for weak hives to rob rather than > go out looking for honey. This would lead to increased vectors for > parasites and other diseases. Since the number of sites is limited by > various factors, such as land availability, roads and so forth. Proles > buying honey and paying absurd prices for it encourages beekeepers to pack > more supers into the available sites, which breeds robbers, which spreads > disease and weakens hives, which encourages robbers. > > Could we be causing the decline of bees by indirectly breeding uncooperative > or adversarial strains by paying crazy prices for honey? > I'm not a beekeeper, but your suggestion sounds unlikely. (Try running it past some bee experts). As i understand it, bees rob other hives when nectar is scarce. Shortage of habitat may be one of the reasons for bee decline. If so, robbing may be increasing. The other factor is that bees learn from each other. If a robber hive is successful and the beekeeper doesn't intervene, the robbing habit will spread through the whole apiary. I think if robber bees were increasing the beekeepers would have noticed. BillK From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 17 22:47:35 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 23:47:35 +0100 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <0E644777-7858-4568-97FB-E238BC54DF68@taramayastales.com> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> <0E644777-7858-4568-97FB-E238BC54DF68@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <56733B87.8020606@aleph.se> On 2015-12-17 17:01, Tara Maya wrote: > In a similar way, Trump?s extremely racist and horrid remarks are now > making anyone who doesn?t want to throw out all Muslims look sane by > comparison. It?s moved the conversation further toward the extreme, > even for those who want to be moderate. Well, it is all about tring to bring one side of the Overton window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window towards one's own extreme position - or claim a more extreme position than the one wanted, so that it has a decent chance of being in the window. Transhumanism is also trying to bring enhancement and big future thinking into peoples's thinkable window. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 05:14:00 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 21:14:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: > > http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series > Good luck refining it into something most people will be able to understand enough to trust. (Not a sarcastic comment: that really is a large problem getting this system deployed on more than niche electorates.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 13:02:15 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:02:15 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Taking control of our own evolution Message-ID: First 2015 Register Winter Lecture video. Anders Sandberg, of the Future of Humanity institute at Oxford. Anders took us on a dizzying 50-minute tour of transhumanism and human enhancement, covering why today?s chimpanzees are confused about their place in the world, why snakes are immortal but humans hanker after the afterlife, why the euro would be in better shape if the Eurocrats had bowls of drugs at the next emergency summit, and how some of his friends are experimenting with do-it-yourself brainhacking. And lots more besides. BillK From anders at aleph.se Sat Dec 19 00:54:05 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 01:54:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Taking control of our own evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5674AAAD.6080403@aleph.se> Thanks! It was a fun talk, but even more fun during the question session that was not recorded. Our ideas are out there. On 2015-12-18 14:02, BillK wrote: > First 2015 Register Winter Lecture video. > Anders Sandberg, of the Future of Humanity institute at Oxford. > > Anders took us on a dizzying 50-minute tour of transhumanism and human > enhancement, covering why today?s chimpanzees are confused about their > place in the world, why snakes are immortal but humans hanker after > the afterlife, why the euro would be in better shape if the Eurocrats > had bowls of drugs at the next emergency summit, and how some of his > friends are experimenting with do-it-yourself brainhacking. And lots > more besides. > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 09:20:10 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 09:20:10 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Living longer - Genes? Message-ID: In the search for extending lifespan geneticists have been searching for genes that protect against the effects of ageing, but with little success so far. Another suggestion is that perhaps centenarians don't have anti-ageing genes, but do have disease-protecting genes. i.e. they live longer because they get fewer diseases. New research is pointing in this direction. Quotes: How to Live to 100: Researchers Find New Genetic Clues Alice Park Dec. 17, 2015 In a new analysis, researchers explore whether people live longer because they avoid disease or because they possess some anti-aging secret. But in a paper published in PLOS Genetics, researchers led by Stuart Kim, professor of developmental biology and genetics at Stanford University, questions that dogma. He found that on the contrary, centenarians may have fewer of the genes that contribute to major chronic diseases. That doesn?t mean that people who live to their 100s also don?t possess some protective anti-aging genes as well, but Kim?s study shows that they don?t experience as much disease as people who are shorter-lived. Kim?s team shows that the way centenarians reach their second century may involve more than just being blessed with anti-aging genes. ?We found that, at least in part, they live longer because they don?t get sick,? he says. ------- BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 18:32:02 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 13:32:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <5672B9A0.2060107@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: ?> ? > Never ascribe to pandering what may be actually held views. > ?Good advice. And never assume that pandering is worse than sincerity. I'd be far less worried about the current crop of US presidential candidates if I thought they were just pandering, but I think they really believe much of the nonsense they're peddling. The sincere fools are the ones that cause devastation, for example I think Bush wanted to believe it so badly that he had convinced himself that there really were WMDs in Iraq. ? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 22:34:21 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 17:34:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief?/was Re: Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Tara Maya wrote: > One of the few serious alternatives to democracy that I?ve considered > might work is a system of Representative Consensus. A council of twelve, > rather like a jury, is chosen by random selection from the pool of eligible > citizens, and they perform as the Executive, discussing decisions and > coming to a conclusion by consensus. In rare cases where consensus could > not be reached, the entire council would be re-drawn. (So it would be like > the Ultimate Game, in that those groups who could not reach a compromise > would be punished.) > ### You reinvented demarchy. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 22:55:16 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 17:55:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Michael Butler wrote: > > On Dec 12, 2015 1:25 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" > wrote: > > > ### Which words did I put in your mouth? > > We are done here, I think. I'm of such limited intellect that I have to > budget my time, and I've used up all the time I have budgeted for this > conversation with you for the next century. > > Be well, and may you get the kind of world you want. > ### So you concede that I did not mis-state your views in my re-statement? Good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 22:57:00 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 17:57:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott > Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: > comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that > women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to > withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't > complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because > women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. > ### You sound like a feminist. Are you? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From connor_flexman at brown.edu Sun Dec 20 01:30:38 2015 From: connor_flexman at brown.edu (Flexman, Connor) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:30:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > >> Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: >> >> http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series >> > > Good luck refining it into something most people will be able to > understand enough to trust. (Not a sarcastic comment: that really is a > large problem getting this system deployed on more than niche electorates.) > Perhaps if more companies begin using it like Google does, or we roll it out in very sub-national realms, people will slowly become comfortable with it? It looks promising enough that it might be worth pushing for on a smaller scale, to see how far people can take it before insurmountable problems show up. Connor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 02:06:59 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 18:06:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2015, at 5:30 PM, Flexman, Connor wrote: >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >>> Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: >>> http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series >> >> Good luck refining it into something most people will be able to understand enough to trust. (Not a sarcastic comment: that really is a large problem getting this system deployed on more than niche electorates.) > > Perhaps if more companies begin using it like Google does, or we roll it out in very sub-national realms, people will slowly become comfortable with it? It looks promising enough that it might be worth pushing for on a smaller scale, to see how far people can take it before insurmountable problems show up. Yes, many things can be tried on a smaller or local scale that provide insight and experience plus show more people that the world won't fall into the Sun if something like sortition, etc. is tried on a larger scale. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:43:58 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:43:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Off the top of my head, maybe a candidate is what appears to be to be a paradox in statistics. I can't really explain it so I'll give two examples: If you vote for a candidate, that one vote is basically worthless. But if you convince a million people to vote for a candidate, those votes gain a different kind of value. The question is sort of: If you're one of those million people being convinced to vote, how should you think of the value of your vote? Does it become more important to vote now that you're part of that million? It could almost be argued that now it's less important to vote because other people will en masse for your candidate. I'm sure this problem can be lexically pared down to a more parsimonious statement, it's related to levels of abstraction and whether a hypothetical, future-intended action on a higher level affects the value of the lower level actions it's comprised of. Also related: If I make a bracket tournament of everyone on earth and the winner is determined by coin flip, I will necessarily produce a winner who has won every flip. The chance of that is miniscule and I believe equal to 1/(people in the competition). So I can, by performing the tournament, create precisely the theoretical distribution of winners and losers to a number of coin flips. I think statistical questions like that, related to scale, level of abstraction, and observer position, are "psychedelic" problems. I'll call those statistical relativity, but someone let me know if what I mentioned has been addressed already. Another problem regards insight, and how to hypothetically measure it. If you have an insight that gives you information much more quickly than an experiment producing the same result, how can we verify and validate the truthiness of this insight? In my mind (psychedelic) insight has a place alongside science as an information gathering tool, and perhaps a value similar to p value could be used to show the strength of an insight. Thus insights with low enough value could be used as data. To me, that seems almost predicated by the creation and study of "artificial insight". I guess it would be a computer program that made guesses using data, though I don't exactly know how to randomize that in the same way as human insight. So yeah those are my two for now: statistical level-of-abstraction paradoxes, and the nature of insight, what it is, how it works, whether it can be incorporated into theories as it's own form of earmarked derived data, whether the scientific discovery of the nature of insight a) is possible; b) would nullify or supplant the abilities of insight. I almost sense another paradox in the 'artificial insight box'. It's something like, if we created that box, if it had an insight, then knowing the derivation of that insight it would immediately be able to come up with a better one, ie the insight would be superseded even as it was created. That paradox leads me to think, almost, that we can't build the insight box without building a box that made absolute conclusions from given data which were not really insights in the traditional sense because they would be proven true completely. I can see why this stuff occupies so much of R. Penrose's thinking. Sorry for rambling, writing this on mobile as a one-off. But those are my two for now, insight and statistical LoA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 02:34:53 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 21:34:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Native HawaiianReligious Imbeciles Message-ID: In a sad parade construction equipment has been coming down Mauna Kea for the last several days probably never to return. The state said the equipment could stay there if the Thirty Meter Telescope people want to appeal but that would take years and jittery donors are terrified of offending religious imbeciles; so it looks like they're not even going to try an appeal and are just throwing in the towel. Kuuipo Freitas, a native Hawaiian imbecile, said: *"It's all pretty much cleared now. We know right now there's no construction that's going to be happening on Mauna Kea. We need to stop bowing down to the dollar and starting bowing down to the Mauna. She can just stand majestically without being harmed."* You'd think they were trying to build a glue factory and not one of the most noble human structures on the planet. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From butler.two.one at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 03:09:10 2015 From: butler.two.one at gmail.com (Michael Butler) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:09:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2015 2:56 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" ### So you concede that I did not mis-state your views in my re-statement? No. > Good. Goodbye. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Dec 20 22:01:12 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:01:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I think there is a fundamental difference between insight and p-values. The first is about how to generate a hypothesis, the second about how to test it (after an experiment or observations ). In creativity there is both divergent thinking and convergent thinking - come up with new things, weed out the bad things, and build the things for real. Some people are good at some steps, but not others. Boost the weak steps, and they become more creative. Psychedelics may help the first step or even cause a transvaluation that enables new ways of evaluation. But other tools exist for other steps. Being meta enough to figure out which ones need boosting is also a skill. P-values for all their faults is an example of a tool that helped the scientific creative process. There are many more, like bayesian methods, for that step. Maybe we need more metascience to evaluate where we need more tools for our projects. Sent from Samsung tablet -------- Original message -------- From: Will Steinberg Date:2015/12/20 17:52 (GMT+01:00) To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity Off the top of my head, maybe a candidate is what appears to be to be a paradox in statistics. I can't really explain it so I'll give two examples: If you vote for a candidate, that one vote is basically worthless. But if you convince a million people to vote for a candidate, those votes gain a different kind of value. The question is sort of: If you're one of those million people being convinced to vote, how should you think of the value of your vote? Does it become more important to vote now that you're part of that million? It could almost be argued that now it's less important to vote because other people will en masse for your candidate. I'm sure this problem can be lexically pared down to a more parsimonious statement, it's related to levels of abstraction and whether a hypothetical, future-intended action on a higher level affects the value of the lower level actions it's comprised of. Also related: If I make a bracket tournament of everyone on earth and the winner is determined by coin flip, I will necessarily produce a winner who has won every flip. The chance of that is miniscule and I believe equal to 1/(people in the competition). So I can, by performing the tournament, create precisely the theoretical distribution of winners and losers to a number of coin flips. I think statistical questions like that, related to scale, level of abstraction, and observer position, are "psychedelic" problems. I'll call those statistical relativity, but someone let me know if what I mentioned has been addressed already. Another problem regards insight, and how to hypothetically measure it. If you have an insight that gives you information much more quickly than an experiment producing the same result, how can we verify and validate the truthiness of this insight? In my mind (psychedelic) insight has a place alongside science as an information gathering tool, and perhaps a value similar to p value could be used to show the strength of an insight. Thus insights with low enough value could be used as data. To me, that seems almost predicated by the creation and study of "artificial insight". I guess it would be a computer program that made guesses using data, though I don't exactly know how to randomize that in the same way as human insight. So yeah those are my two for now: statistical level-of-abstraction paradoxes, and the nature of insight, what it is, how it works, whether it can be incorporated into theories as it's own form of earmarked derived data, whether the scientific discovery of the nature of insight a) is possible; b) would nullify or supplant the abilities of insight. I almost sense another paradox in the 'artificial insight box'. It's something like, if we created that box, if it had an insight, then knowing the derivation of that insight it would immediately be able to come up with a better one, ie the insight would be superseded even as it was created. That paradox leads me to think, almost, that we can't build the insight box without building a box that made absolute conclusions from given data which were not really insights in the traditional sense because they would be proven true completely. I can see why this stuff occupies so much of R. Penrose's thinking. Sorry for rambling, writing this on mobile as a one-off. But those are my two for now, insight and statistical LoA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:34:47 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 02:34:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Religious Idiocy Triumphs Over Science Yet Again In-Reply-To: References: <007801d12edb$2eb51570$8c1f4050$@att.net> <004301d12f07$2c51f420$84f5dc60$@att.net> <00e101d12f89$4130b070$c3921150$@att.net> <47B32B6E-020E-4820-A860-608F06C326B6@gmail.com> <79453B40-E85A-4545-98EF-AD045959C1AB@gmail.com> <008701d13312$9899f6f0$c9cde4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 10:09 PM, Michael Butler wrote: > > On Dec 19, 2015 2:56 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > > > ### So you concede that I did not mis-state your views in my > re-statement? > > No. > > > Good. > > Goodbye. > ### You say I mis-stated your views and then refuse to explain the charge. Some debating tactics. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:42:16 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 02:42:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott > Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: > comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that > women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to > withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't > complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because > women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. > ### I asked if you are a feminist because what you write sounds exactly like the kind of bizarre, defamatory socjus stuff that they use to attack reasonable people. I usually don't read Adams' blog but spurred by your accusatory tone I did go through his recent posts, including the ones about matriarchy/patriarchy, and I all I see is a reasoned analysis of current social issues, by somebody who claims to be a feminist himself (of course, not the third-wave type). Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Dec 21 08:55:33 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:55:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5677BE85.5070309@aleph.se> Testing out systems of policymaking and governance in the small is very helpful, since if there is a bug you need to test it for a time roughly proportional to the mean time between failure for that kind of bug. Ideally you do it independently in parallel to get data faster. However, social technologies have scaling properties that matter. The behavior among 10+ team members is very different from 100+ groups or a 100,000+ population. Social dynamics matter: small groups often get effects from the individual relationships, while larger groups have anonymity effects. Also, the number of minds trying to find loopholes and ways to crack the system increases with the group size. If there is a chance p per participant of finding a problematic loophole, the chance that it will be found is 1-(1-p)^N, which becomes large for N=-ln(2)/ln(1-p) ~= ln(2)/p. So if p is 0.01, then you need 70 people to have about 50% chance of finding the bug. Once N is on the order of millions, you can no longer run tests - your system is part of society (or is society), so stuff with p less than one in 1.4 million cannot be tested away, you have to deal with it as it happens for real. On 2015-12-20 02:30, Flexman, Connor wrote: > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Jason Resch > wrote: > > Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: > http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series > > > Good luck refining it into something most people will be able to > understand enough to trust. (Not a sarcastic comment: that really > is a large problem getting this system deployed on more than niche > electorates.) > > > Perhaps if more companies begin using it like Google does, or we roll > it out in very sub-national realms, people will slowly become > comfortable with it? It looks promising enough that it might be worth > pushing for on a smaller scale, to see how far people can take it > before insurmountable problems show up. > Connor > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:13:45 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:13:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fail to the chief? In-Reply-To: <5677BE85.5070309@aleph.se> References: <111F5C72-B0C2-417D-9D17-DBD0E0065127@taramayastales.com> <6C4FC9ED-6898-4095-87C1-854A0D52DA0B@gmail.com> <5677BE85.5070309@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:55 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Testing out systems of policymaking and governance in the small is very > helpful, since if there is a bug you need to test it for a time roughly > proportional to the mean time between failure for that kind of bug. Ideally > you do it independently in parallel to get data faster. > > However, social technologies have scaling properties that matter. The > behavior among 10+ team members is very different from 100+ groups or a > 100,000+ population. Social dynamics matter: small groups often get effects > from the individual relationships, while larger groups have anonymity > effects. Also, the number of minds trying to find loopholes and ways to > crack the system increases with the group size. > > If there is a chance p per participant of finding a problematic loophole, > the chance that it will be found is 1-(1-p)^N, which becomes large for > N=-ln(2)/ln(1-p) ~= ln(2)/p. So if p is 0.01, then you need 70 people to > have about 50% chance of finding the bug. Once N is on the order of > millions, you can no longer run tests - your system is part of society (or > is society), so stuff with p less than one in 1.4 million cannot be tested > away, you have to deal with it as it happens for real. > ?What are the odds of finding the expertise in a sample of 10 who can > evaluate whether to issue bonds on the sewer system, hire more police and > so on. This is why we have representative democracy - you elect people who > then hire experts to advise on these decisions. There is no guarantee that > the elected have any idea of which experts to hire and when not to listen > to them, but that's the system.? > ?In the USA we have the Bill of Rights to take some decisions out of the purview of the majority.? ? Neither should the majority make decisions for a town, state, or country. Far too much ignorance and lack of education. Once only landed gentry could vote. At least that insured that at least some of them were aware of the bigger issues. It was proposed here, of course. bill w? > > > > > > On 2015-12-20 02:30, Flexman, Connor wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 12:14 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 6:49 AM, Jason Resch < >> jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Check out Liquid Democracy, now used at Google: >>> >>> http://www.tdcommons.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=dpubs_series >>> >> >> Good luck refining it into something most people will be able to >> understand enough to trust. (Not a sarcastic comment: that really is a >> large problem getting this system deployed on more than niche electorates.) >> > > Perhaps if more companies begin using it like Google does, or we roll it > out in very sub-national realms, people will slowly become comfortable with > it? It looks promising enough that it might be worth pushing for on a > smaller scale, to see how far people can take it before insurmountable > problems show up. > Connor > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:27:11 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:27:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > I think there is a fundamental difference between insight and p-values. > The first is about how to generate a hypothesis, the second about how to > test it (after an experiment or observations ). > > In creativity there is both divergent thinking and convergent thinking - > come up with new things, weed out the bad things, and build the things for > real. Some people are good at some steps, but not others. Boost the weak > steps, and they become more creative. Psychedelics may help the first step > or even cause a transvaluation that enables new ways of evaluation. But > other tools exist for other steps. Being meta enough to figure out which > ones need boosting is also a skill. > > P-values for all their faults is an example of a tool that helped the > scientific creative process. There are many more, like bayesian methods, > for that step. Maybe we need more metascience to evaluate where we need > more tools for our projects. > > > > > Sent from Samsung tablet > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Will Steinberg > Date:2015/12/20 17:52 (GMT+01:00) > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity > > Off the top of my head, maybe a candidate is what appears to be to be a > paradox in statistics. I can't really explain it so I'll give two examples: > > If you vote for a candidate, that one vote is basically worthless. But if > you convince a million people to vote for a candidate, those votes gain a > different kind of value. The question is sort of: If you're one of those > million people being convinced to vote, how should you think of the value > of your vote? Does it become more important to vote now that you're part > of that million? It could almost be argued that now it's less important to > vote because other people will en masse for your candidate. I'm sure this > problem can be lexically pared down to a more parsimonious statement, it's > related to levels of abstraction and whether a hypothetical, > future-intended action on a higher level affects the value of the lower > level actions it's comprised of. Also related: If I make a bracket > tournament of everyone on earth and the winner is determined by coin flip, > I will necessarily produce a winner who has won every flip. The chance of > that is miniscule and I believe equal to 1/(people in the competition). So > I can, by performing the tournament, create precisely the theoretical > distribution of winners and losers to a number of coin flips. > > I think statistical questions like that, related to scale, level of > abstraction, and observer position, are "psychedelic" problems. I'll call > those statistical relativity, but someone let me know if what I mentioned > has been addressed already. > > Another problem regards insight, and how to hypothetically measure it. If > you have an insight that gives you information much more quickly than an > experiment producing the same result, how can we verify and validate the > truthiness of this insight? > > In my mind (psychedelic) insight has a place alongside science as an > information gathering tool, and perhaps a value similar to p value could be > used to show the strength of an insight. Thus insights with low enough > value could be used as data. > > To me, that seems almost predicated by the creation and study of > "artificial insight". I guess it would be a computer program that made > guesses using data, though I don't exactly know how to randomize that in > the same way as human insight. > > So yeah those are my two for now: statistical level-of-abstraction > paradoxes, and the nature of insight, what it is, how it works, whether it > can be incorporated into theories as it's own form of earmarked derived > data, whether the scientific discovery of the nature of insight a) is > possible; b) would nullify or supplant the abilities of insight. > > I almost sense another paradox in the 'artificial insight box'. It's > something like, if we created that box, if it had an insight, then knowing > the derivation of that insight it would immediately be able to come up with > a better one, ie the insight would be superseded even as it was created. > That paradox leads me to think, almost, that we can't build the insight box > without building a box that made absolute conclusions from given data which > were not really insights in the traditional sense because they would be > proven true completely. I can see why this stuff occupies so much of R. > Penrose's thinking. > > Sorry for rambling, writing this on mobile as a one-off. But those are my > two for now, insight and statistical LoA. > ?I know one thing for sure we don't need: to return to the discredited ( in psychology, anyway) method of introspection. Anders has it right: get insights or epiphanies any way you want to, then subject them to empirical experiment. Subjective 'truth' just has no place in science. Sorry. Bill w (Max, in no way shape or form did I mean to patronize you)? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:34:40 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:34:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Living longer - Genes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 3:20 AM, BillK wrote: > In the search for extending lifespan geneticists have been searching > for genes that protect against the effects of ageing, but with little > success so far. > Another suggestion is that perhaps centenarians don't have anti-ageing > genes, but do have disease-protecting genes. i.e. they live longer > because they get fewer diseases. > New research is pointing in this direction. > > > Quotes: > How to Live to 100: Researchers Find New Genetic Clues > Alice Park Dec. 17, 2015 > > In a new analysis, researchers explore whether people live longer > because they avoid disease or because they possess some anti-aging > secret. > But in a paper published in PLOS Genetics, researchers led by Stuart > Kim, professor of developmental biology and genetics at Stanford > University, questions that dogma. He found that on the contrary, > centenarians may have fewer of the genes that contribute to major > chronic diseases. That doesn?t mean that people who live to their 100s > also don?t possess some protective anti-aging genes as well, but Kim?s > study shows that they don?t experience as much disease as people who > are shorter-lived. > > Kim?s team shows that the way centenarians reach their second century > may involve more than just being blessed with anti-aging genes. ?We > found that, at least in part, they live longer because they don?t get > sick,? he says. > ------- > > > BillK > ?What I think is going to happen: epigenetic research will find that what > your mother and father and even grandmothers and grandfathers ate, smoked, > etc. will have turned on or off certain genes? that affect the immune > system and perhaps other things that affect aging. Isn't it kind of scary > that what you do can affect your grandchildren? (before having children, > of course) - (am currently reading Nessa Carey's 'The Epigenetics > Revolution') > > ?bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:36:04 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:36:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just wonder what the logical composition of insight is. Because I can't exactly making a computer that had insight, because then whatever the code was to produce that insight, the way it was made would already point to how to change it to make better insight. I think this is why Penrose argues that insight uses some method of information analysis that we don't yet have grammar for. Do any of you have any idea what a *very* rough computerized insight model might look like? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 17:43:35 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:43:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I just wonder what the logical composition of insight is. Because I can't > exactly making a computer that had insight, because then whatever the code > was to produce that insight, the way it was made would already point to how > to change it to make better insight. I think this is why Penrose argues > that insight uses some method of information analysis that we don't yet > have grammar for. > > Do any of you have any idea what a *very* rough computerized insight model > might look like? > ?How is what Penrose said any different from saying "We just don't understand this."?? bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 19:06:45 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:06:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's not, that's why I'm asking what you think it is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 19:11:21 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:11:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDA3244-90AA-4355-AF43-41DA23154AA0@gmail.com> On Dec 21, 2015, at 11:06 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > It's not, that's why I'm asking what you think it is. > Since you completely trim out what you're responding to, it makes it hard for me to follow what or who you're responding to. Not asking you to err in the opposite direction of including everything, but might make it more reader friendly (for me, at least:), if you include a little context. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 19:25:46 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:25:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: <4DDA3244-90AA-4355-AF43-41DA23154AA0@gmail.com> References: <4DDA3244-90AA-4355-AF43-41DA23154AA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Was asking WFW how he thinks insight operates. Same question to everyone, though: to propose the most parsimonious logical model of insight possible, or, if not logical, what a substitute for that logic might be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:37:03 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:37:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2015 9:38 AM, "Will Steinberg" wrote: > Because I can't exactly making a computer that had insight, because then whatever the code was to produce that insight, the way it was made would already point to how to change it to make better insight. I am having trouble parsing this. From my own experience coding things that produced insights (or helped me produce insights, depending on how you classify it), what I think you're saying does not appear to be true: the code by itself did not, in those cases, point to better insights. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:51:18 2015 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:51:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, but in your case, Adrian, I assume you used a program to create new data that *you* then had insight from. The problem with the insight program is that it has to be able to, from data, make conclusions whose form of statement is not provided for in the original code. Does that make sense? An insight program, in theory, could be given a set of geological data and derive the laws of calculus. Or state the principal of natural selection in English. It needs to go "outside the box", which is the whole thing that's confusing about human insight. Honestly, it might be congruent to the strong AI problem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:57:34 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:57:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FF3886C-FD61-452E-AED5-1AA0FBC412E2@gmail.com> This paper might interest some of you: http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/PdfPapers/DiscoveryandtheDeepself.pdf Very Arthur Koestler feel to it, no? Of course, it seems to say it's going outside s framework is part of the discovery or insight process. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 23:36:29 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:36:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > I?m a feminist. To paraphrase Mark Twain: ?Women are human beings. Worse I > can say of no person." > ### There is a chance for industrial-grade misunderstandings when discussing these subjects, so let's engage in some explication. Is it enough to believe that women are humans to be classified as a feminist? Isn't there something more the word, especially in its third-wave edition? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 00:52:49 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:52:49 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: <9FF3886C-FD61-452E-AED5-1AA0FBC412E2@gmail.com> References: <9FF3886C-FD61-452E-AED5-1AA0FBC412E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: will wrote: Was asking WFW how he thinks insight operates. Same question to everyone, though: to propose the most parsimonious logical model of insight possible, or, if not logical, what a substitute for that logic might be. For me science has to start with some definition of terms. My 'model' bad term is 'instinct', which is defined dozens of ways and so has little meaning for me. So ask me what instinct is and I ask you what definition do you want? So do the same for insight. For something very off the cuff, I'd say that insight, if it proves to be true in some sense, is seeing a pattern that you, and maybe no one else, has seen. Of course we see many patterns that turn out to be false, like, in the extreme, paranoid delusions. As to where it comes from, it comes from the unconscious, like everything else. So what we need to do is to discover the operations of the unconscious, which might prove to be something not totally dissimilar from what Freud said about it. All this focus on consciousness is misplaced. It is just a tool of the unconscious. I won't be alive then, but would be extremely interested in what Freud wrote about the scientific nature of the unconscious, which will be revealed when 100 years have passed since his death (2038 or close to that), according to his will (unless someone has stolen a look at it and I don't know about it). Without googling it, I think it's called Project for a Scientific Psychology. bill w On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > This paper might interest some of you: > > http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/PdfPapers/DiscoveryandtheDeepself.pdf > > Very Arthur Koestler feel to it, no? Of course, it seems to say it's going > outside s framework is part of the discovery or insight process. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Dec 21 17:39:29 2015 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:39:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> I?m a feminist. To paraphrase Mark Twain: ?Women are human beings. Worse I can say of no person." Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > On Dec 20, 2015, at 11:42 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > Dilbert can be funny, but I find it hard to enjoy after reading Scott Adams' insane misogynistic blog posts. They're ridiculous. Highlights: comparing women to children and mentally handicapped people, saying that women getting the door held for them, dates paid for, and being able to withhold sex means we live in a society dominated by women/they shouldn't complain about inequality, insinuating that men interrupt women because women talk too much, &c. It's sad, delusional stuff. > > ### I asked if you are a feminist because what you write sounds exactly like the kind of bizarre, defamatory socjus stuff that they use to attack reasonable people. I usually don't read Adams' blog but spurred by your accusatory tone I did go through his recent posts, including the ones about matriarchy/patriarchy, and I all I see is a reasoned analysis of current social issues, by somebody who claims to be a feminist himself (of course, not the third-wave type). > > Rafa? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 22 06:30:34 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:30:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing Message-ID: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> The wicked coolness is around 32 minutes and following. Tail first landings are soooo cool, I just love em. spike ORBCOMM-2 on Livestream ORBCOMM-2 on Livestream Please enable Javascript to see this event's content. View on livestream.com Preview by Yahoo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 07:10:05 2015 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:10:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science /was Re: Drugs and creativity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Yes, but in your case, Adrian, I assume you used a program to create new > data that *you* then had insight from. > Well, that's the trick. If I created the code, which of us - the code or I - is having the insight? That said, the program did not create new data. The one (technically, a series of similar programs) I speak of performed a brute force analysis of more combinations of existing data than I could go through in a reasonable (relative to the task) time, and showed me the patterns that it found. As a result of using my creation, I possessed new insights about said existing data, regardless of whether it was the code or I that actually created those insights. Said insights proved to be correct, and I employed them in a way that resulted in a quantifiable benefit to me. I then generalized this program and provided it to others who were encountering similar problems, albeit with slightly different sets of data, and they wound up with equivalent insights to my own (and equivalent benefits to what I reaped) without my specific involvement for each particular set of data. Did I create each one of those insights, without spending time (even one second) on each individual case? Did the other people create those insights, even though all they did was input data and run the program, ignorant to the logic and processes in the code? Or did the program generate those insights? > The problem with the insight program is that it has to be able to, from > data, make conclusions whose form of statement is not provided for in the > original code. Does that make sense? > Given the example you cite, this seems to be a nonsense request. > An insight program, in theory, could be given a set of geological data and > derive the laws of calculus. > If it could derive said laws from geological data, it could derive said laws from no data. Calculus simply is not contained within observations of geology. > Or state the principal of natural selection in English. > That could perhaps be done given sufficient biological data...and, of course, sufficient capability with the English language. However, then the insight is within the data. > It needs to go "outside the box", which is the whole thing that's > confusing about human insight. > Human insight does not work the way you have described either. Humans did not derive the laws of calculus from arbitrary geological data, and there does not appear to be reason to suspect that an AI should be able to either. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 07:26:44 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:26:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> Message-ID: Yah, hella cool! Now the next act has to be returning such a booster to flight. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 22 08:11:10 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:11:10 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: References: <9FF3886C-FD61-452E-AED5-1AA0FBC412E2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5679059E.2090608@aleph.se> I usually start by my definition of understanding: you understand X, when your mental model of X is complete enough that you can run mental simulations of it, check what-if cases, and look at the causal relations between parts. I understand long division and classical mechanics, I do not understand most of economics. An insight would then be a jump in understanding. Ideally leading to a fairly complete understanding, but there are smaller insights too (getting the special properties of central forces and potentials were two key insights for me in mechanics). Some insights are unexpected, others gradual. What happens is that your mental model becomes (1) better and (2) more compressed - while before there were lots of random facts and examples, now they fit into a pattern. As Jurgen Schmidthuber likes to say, cognition is all about compression. The problem is that compressing evidence into a model can be NP or worse (consider figuring out the best explanation of a bit string generated by a hidden computer program). We can become better at generating some kinds of insights by learning the right tools, whether they are pattern-recognition and -handling skills, a rich set of analogies to other things, or search mechanisms inside or outside our minds. This will not work on all problems; the meta-skill of knowing what tools might help is also useful. Some insights may require shifting strategy radically if one's current strategy set is not working. I think this might provide a reasoned way of looking at the use of psychedelics or other strategy-scrambling tools: viewed as an exploration-exploitation problem in a reinforcement learning setting, you want to temporarily increase the temperature of your softmax action selection when you have evidence that you need to explore outside the low-value already explored region of the world or mostly used action set. It wouldn't surprise me if one could prove some optimal temperature-regulation strategies in some world models. On 2015-12-22 01:52, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > will wrote: Was asking WFW how he thinks insight operates. Same > question to everyone, though: to propose the most parsimonious logical > model of insight possible, or, if not logical, what a substitute for > that logic might be. > > For me science has to start with some definition of terms. My 'model' > bad term is 'instinct', which is defined dozens of ways and so has > little meaning for me. So ask me what instinct is and I ask you what > definition do you want? > > So do the same for insight. > > For something very off the cuff, I'd say that insight, if it proves to > be true in some sense, is seeing a pattern that you, and maybe no one > else, has seen. Of course we see many patterns that turn out to be > false, like, in the extreme, paranoid delusions. > > As to where it comes from, it comes from the unconscious, like > everything else. So what we need to do is to discover the operations > of the unconscious, which might prove to be something not totally > dissimilar from what Freud said about it. > > All this focus on consciousness is misplaced. It is just a tool of > the unconscious. I won't be alive then, but would be extremely > interested in what Freud wrote about the scientific nature of the > unconscious, which will be revealed when 100 years have passed since > his death (2038 or close to that), according to his will (unless > someone has stolen a look at it and I don't know about it). > > Without googling it, I think it's called Project for a Scientific > Psychology. > > bill w > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > > This paper might interest some of you: > > http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/klein/PdfPapers/DiscoveryandtheDeepself.pdf > > Very Arthur Koestler feel to it, no? Of course, it seems to say > it's going outside s framework is part of the discovery or insight > process. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 22 08:12:18 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:12:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> Message-ID: <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> On 2015-12-22 07:30, spike wrote: > > The wicked coolness is around 32 minutes and following. Tail first > landings are soooo cool, I just love em. > Beautiful. In the pictures it looks like the vehicle came in from the sea side, which makes sense from a safety perspective, but I can't figure out the orbital mechanics. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 22 07:58:46 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:58:46 +0100 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <567902B6.4080204@aleph.se> On 2015-12-22 00:36, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: > > I?m a feminist. To paraphrase Mark Twain: ?Women are human beings. > Worse I can say of no person." > > > ### There is a chance for industrial-grade misunderstandings when > discussing these subjects, so let's engage in some explication. > > Is it enough to believe that women are humans to be classified as a > feminist? Isn't there something more the word, especially in its > third-wave edition? I think the key problem is that we quickly get into tribalist group affirmation signaling when talking about classifications like this. This is equally true for transhumanism: I was somewhat dismayed to see that some of the French intellectuals I met recently tending to think that transhumanism was a homogeneous group and everybody hence could be taken to task for something stupid Zoltan Istvan or the NBIC report said. So they could both feel superior by pointing out elementary problems, strengthen their own group since the alternative view is non-viable, *and* save time from trying to read what we actually say and believe. Note how many online feminism debates are done along the same lines. My approach to issues like this is to drill down to some particular issue (e.g. affirmative action policies, voting rights), state my views and ideally reasons why I hold them, and then go back up and explain how this fits into wider systems of thought (e.g. my own Bayesian libertarianism). Then one can compare that to other systems, groups, issues or whatnot. But it avoids tribalism. I think one can be a reasonable feminist without having an opinion about third-wave feminism. Just like one can be a transhumanist without having a detailed view of Venturism. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 22 10:13:42 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:13:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: <56792256.9020609@aleph.se> On 2015-12-22 09:12, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > In the pictures it looks like the vehicle came in from the sea side, > which makes sense from a safety perspective, but I can't figure out > the orbital mechanics. Ah, here Elon explains it: http://www.spacex.com/news/2015/12/21/background-tonights-launch > In the case of the Falcon 9 rocket, the boost stage is able to > accelerate a payload mass of 125 metric tons to 8000 km/h and land on > an ocean platform or to 5000 km/h and land back at the launch site. > The second one is lower because the rocket is moving super fast away > from the launch site, so it has to do a screetching U-turn with > nitrogen attitude thrusters, then fire the engines to create a > reversed ballistic arc, then reorient again for atmospheric entry > and have the engines pointed in the right direction for the landing > burn. Since the propellant is liquid, it wants to centrifuge out > during these maneuvers, so there has to be a system of baffles and > internal holding tanks to keep it in place. It also needs three > axis control surfaces that don't melt easily and work well from > hypersonic through subsonic speeds. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Tue Dec 22 11:20:29 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:20:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Augmentations to Science In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567931FD.4050807@yahoo.com> Will Steinberg asked: "Do any of you have any idea what a *very* rough computerized insight model might look like?" You need to define 'insight' first. I suspect different people will have different definitions. To me, it's pretty much the same thing as 'gut feeling'. In other words, a cognitive shortcut, where some idea 'feels' right even though you can't see immediately why it should. I think this is probably an 'unconscious analogy' type of thing, where you've detected an analogy to something else you've experienced in the past, but aren't consciously aware of what the something else is, and this process is tied to an emotional response, making it jump out more quickly than the normal micro-evolution process that goes on in the cortex when we're thinking. The problem with insights is they're sometimes wrong. Any algorithm that captured the process would probably have to build on other algorithms that model thinking anyway, and these would probably be fast enough that there'd be no point in having an additional 'insight' system which is less reliable. For a biological organism, the evolutionary benefits of the extra speed probably compensates for it being wrong a certain amount of the time. For a non-biological thinking agent, that won't apply. Ben Zaiboc From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 22 15:47:37 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:47:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 12:12 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing On 2015-12-22 07:30, spike wrote: The wicked coolness is around 32 minutes and following. Tail first landings are soooo cool, I just love em. >.Beautiful. >.In the pictures it looks like the vehicle came in from the sea side, which makes sense from a safety perspective, but I can't figure out the orbital mechanics. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University All payloads to orbit would need to be fired eastward, but the landing sequence we saw is the endgame. There was time to bring the eastward velocity to zero and start back westward (or any other direction) without a significant weight penalty. It makes sense to do it that way, so if the thrusters or anything else fails during the landing sequence, the bird overshoots the landing site and drops into the sea rather than some litigious prole's back yard. As for deceleration, the atmosphere does most of the work for us. For the very first time in launcher history, air is our friend. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 16:25:42 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:25:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2015, at 7:47 AM, spike wrote: > All payloads to orbit would need to be fired eastward, but the landing sequence we saw is the endgame. There was time to bring the eastward velocity to zero and start back westward (or any other direction) without a significant weight penalty. It makes sense to do it that way, so if the thrusters or anything else fails during the landing sequence, the bird overshoots the landing site and drops into the sea rather than some litigious prole?s back yard. Wouldn't there be some fuel savings by having it land east of the launch side? > As for deceleration, the atmosphere does most of the work for us. For the very first time in launcher history, air is our friend. True! Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 22 17:02:01 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> Message-ID: <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Subject: Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing On Dec 22, 2015, at 7:47 AM, spike > wrote: >>? It makes sense to do it that way, so if the thrusters or anything else fails during the landing sequence, the bird overshoots the landing site and drops into the sea rather than some litigious prole?s back yard. >?Wouldn't there be some fuel savings by having it land east of the launch side? Ja, it is a compromise. But I like the notion of launching and landing at the same site, as SpaceX does. This has some big advantages, with savings in processing and recovery. Their launch profile is almost straight vertical. Then once above the thick air, the next stage turns east, the first stage comes almost straight back down. That profile is less efficient but has compelling compensating advantages. It could be we have been in a paradigm trap for a long time. We maximize payload capacity at the expense of cost per pound to orbit. >>?As for deceleration, the atmosphere does most of the work for us. For the very first time in launcher history, air is our friend. True! Regards, Dan SpaceX?s success has my wheels turning. I can imagine various re-entry strategies where you would sacrifice the front end of the first stage for the deceleration phase, then turn sideways once you get below about Mach2, then turn nozzle first when the speed reduces to where it can survive the aero-load. In order to gain the support of senators and representatives, NASA had to do the space program in a grossly inefficient way by intentionally spreading the work over many states. SpaceX can locate its factories, its first stage recovery team and everything it needs right down there on Cape Canaveral. It can house its workers in Titusville, which has become a really low-cost place to live, now that the shuttle program has ended. It has so much going for it. This is so cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 19:27:09 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:27:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2015, at 9:02 AM, spike wrote: > >? On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan > Subject: Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing > > On Dec 22, 2015, at 7:47 AM, spike wrote: > >>? It makes sense to do it that way, so if the thrusters or anything else fails during the landing sequence, the bird overshoots the landing site and drops into the sea rather than some litigious prole?s back yard. > > >?Wouldn't there be some fuel savings by having it land east of the launch side? > > Ja, it is a compromise. But I like the notion of launching and landing at the same site, as SpaceX does. This has some big advantages, with savings in processing and recovery. To some extent, but I'm guessing their refurbing will be done elsewhere. > Their launch profile is almost straight vertical. Then once above the thick air, the next stage turns east, the first stage comes almost straight back down. That profile is less efficient but has compelling compensating advantages. > > It could be we have been in a paradigm trap for a long time. We maximize payload capacity at the expense of cost per pound to orbit. What is to be done? (That should be translated as 'Who is to be punished?';) > >>?As for deceleration, the atmosphere does most of the work for us. For the very first time in launcher history, air is our friend. > > True! > > SpaceX?s success has my wheels turning. I can imagine various re-entry strategies where you would sacrifice the front end of the first stage for the deceleration phase, then turn sideways once you get below about Mach2, then turn nozzle first when the speed reduces to where it can survive the aero-load. > > In order to gain the support of senators and representatives, NASA had to do the space program in a grossly inefficient way by intentionally spreading the work over many states. SpaceX can locate its factories, its first stage recovery team and everything it needs right down there on Cape Canaveral. It can house its workers in Titusville, which has become a really low-cost place to live, now that the shuttle program has ended. It has so much going for it. This is so cool! The simple and correct solution to that issue is to get rid of the government. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 22 20:55:20 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:55:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> Message-ID: <014d01d13cfb$12d93e20$388bba60$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? >>?Ja, it is a compromise. But I like the notion of launching and landing at the same site, as SpaceX does. This has some big advantages, with savings in processing and recovery. >?To some extent, but I'm guessing their refurbing will be done elsewhere? Why? You have all the necessary and hard to replicate infrastructure already in place, right there on Cape Canaveral. You have plenty of experienced aerospace guys already trained living in the area, the machines, a lotta stuff that is specialized for this kind of work, cheap housing, great entomology. The Cape and surrounding areas are the best elsewhere you can get. >>?It could be we have been in a paradigm trap for a long time. We maximize payload capacity at the expense of cost per pound to orbit. >?What is to be done? (That should be translated as 'Who is to be punished?';) Most of the aerospace decisions for both the space biggies, USA and the commies, were made based on war needs. War is wasteful. Sometimes good things come of that, technology and science advances in ways completely unforeseen. >?The simple and correct solution to that issue is to get rid of the government. Regards, Dan They will be happy to be gotten rid of. NASA isn?t developing the cutting edge stuff. This should all be in the hands of entrepreneurs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 02:56:14 2015 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:56:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: This might help: https://i.imgur.com/Av1zFjc.jpg On Dec 22, 2015 00:13, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > On 2015-12-22 07:30, spike wrote: > > > > The wicked coolness is around 32 minutes and following. Tail first > landings are soooo cool, I just love em. > > > Beautiful. > > In the pictures it looks like the vehicle came in from the sea side, which > makes sense from a safety perspective, but I can't figure out the orbital > mechanics. > > -- > Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 03:05:38 2015 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:05:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> Message-ID: > To some extent, but I'm guessing their refurbing will be done elsewhere. My understanding is that it was designed to "gas and go"... no " refurbishing". Whether this will actually happen remains to be seen, but there is no fundamental reason they can't. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 03:20:44 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:20:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> Message-ID: <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2015, at 7:05 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > > To some extent, but I'm guessing their refurbing will be done elsewhere. > > My understanding is that it was designed to "gas and go"... no " refurbishing". Whether this will actually happen remains to be seen, but there is no fundamental reason they can't. > Great if they can pull it off. I'm guessing, without have done any research, this first one will be dissected and analyzed to see what the wear and on it is like. Am I wrong about that? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 23 05:52:17 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:52:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: <005001d13d46$15c3e5e0$414bb1a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Van Sickle Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 6:56 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing This might help: https://i.imgur.com/Av1zFjc.jpg Cool thanks Steve. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 06:54:29 2015 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:54:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 22, 2015 19:22, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: > > I'm guessing, without have done any research, this first one will be dissected and analyzed to see what the wear and on it is like. Am I wrong about that? I am sure you are right about that. Still experimental, though I suspect a fast tempo. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 07:21:23 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:21:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D6C8CA1-F154-4EF0-9759-06ED473F5E74@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2015, at 10:54 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > On Dec 22, 2015 19:22, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: > > > > I'm guessing, without have done any research, this first one will be dissected and analyzed to see what the wear and on it is like. Am I wrong about that? > > I am sure you are right about that. Still experimental, though I suspect a fast tempo. > I hope so. Like to see SpaceX bring down its launch prices quickly, of course. ;) It'll be interesting to see what they find... Well, what they share about what they find. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbenzai at yahoo.com Wed Dec 23 10:13:11 2015 From: bbenzai at yahoo.com (Ben) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:13:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567A73B7.8030504@yahoo.com> Anders Sandberg linked: "Ah, here Elon explains it: http://www.spacex.com/news/2015/12/21/background-tonights-launch" In which Musk says: "... we built an autonomous droneship called Just Read the Instructions." Haha, Who's an Iain M Banks fan, then? Ben Zaiboc From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 23 16:39:09 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:39:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003601d13da0$73cde4b0$5b69ae10$@att.net> On Dec 22, 2015 19:22, "Dan TheBookMan" > wrote: > >>? I'm guessing, without have done any research, this first one will be dissected and analyzed to see what the wear and on it is like. Am I wrong about that? >?I am sure you are right about that. Still experimental, though I suspect a fast tempo? Steve We can build re-startable rocket motors if we accept the weight penalty. We already do that for some applications. The one-use throwaways sacrifice everything to get weight down. It is completely believable to me that Musk?s group has developed a gas-and-go rocket motor. Good chance he needs to run it fuel-rich to keep nozzle temperatures down out of the high-erosion regime, so there are known performance compromises to that approach. But after all these years, I am convinced the lower performance reusable rockets are the way forward. I don?t know what SpaceX has in mind for recovering a second stage, but this tail-landing first stage is the most exciting development in space tech in a long time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 17:02:13 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:02:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <014d01d13cfb$12d93e20$388bba60$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <014d01d13cfb$12d93e20$388bba60$@att.net> Message-ID: <154F2516-AA72-422C-B4DA-993D4BDF23F0@gmail.com> On Dec 22, 2015, at 12:55 PM, spike wrote: > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan > ? > > >>?Ja, it is a compromise. But I like the notion of launching and landing at the same site, as SpaceX does. This has some big advantages, with savings in processing and recovery. > > >?To some extent, but I'm guessing their refurbing will be done elsewhere? > > Why? You have all the necessary and hard to replicate infrastructure already in place, right there on Cape Canaveral. You have plenty of experienced aerospace guys already trained living in the area, the machines, a lotta stuff that is specialized for this kind of work, cheap housing, great entomology. The Cape and surrounding areas are the best elsewhere you can get. Because their facilities are in California and Florida is not their only launch site? > >>?It could be we have been in a paradigm trap for a long time. We maximize payload capacity at the expense of cost per pound to orbit. > > >?What is to be done? (That should be translated as 'Who is to be punished?';) > > Most of the aerospace decisions for both the space biggies, USA and the commies, were made based on war needs. War is wasteful. Sometimes good things come of that, technology and science advances in ways completely unforeseen. Broken window fallacy, no? > >?The simple and correct solution to that issue is to get rid of the government. > > They will be happy to be gotten rid of. NASA isn?t developing the cutting edge stuff. This should all be in the hands of entrepreneurs. I kind of doubt they'll be happy to be gotten rid of. They keep clinging on. By getting rid of government, I also mean no one is forced to pay for this stuff too. In other words, even space entrepreneurs would have to get money voluntarily -- not via government contract. That's likely not going to happen anytime soon... though no iron law prevents it from happening. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 17:09:42 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:09:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <003601d13da0$73cde4b0$5b69ae10$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> <003601d13da0$73cde4b0$5b69ae10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 23, 2015, at 8:39 AM, spike wrote: > On Dec 22, 2015 19:22, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: > > > >>? I'm guessing, without have done any research, this first one will be dissected and analyzed to see what the wear and on it is like. Am I wrong about that? > > >?I am sure you are right about that. Still experimental, though I suspect a fast tempo? Steve > > > > We can build re-startable rocket motors if we accept the weight penalty. We already do that for some applications. The one-use throwaways sacrifice everything to get weight down. > > It is completely believable to me that Musk?s group has developed a gas-and-go rocket motor. > Of course, that the engines been fired again during flight seems to say you're right here. And they seem to have already mastered shutting down an engine during flight because of malfunction while keeping the mission going. Seems like the 'infrastructure' is in place for partial failures of reused engines, no? > Good chance he needs to run it fuel-rich to keep nozzle temperatures down out of the high-erosion regime, so there are known performance compromises to that approach. > My guess is inspection and maybe pad firing tests after flight to see if an engine can be reused after each flight. It'd be nice to see this become so reliable it's like a commercial jet flight. > But after all these years, I am convinced the lower performance reusable rockets are the way forward. > Me too. > I don?t know what SpaceX has in mind for recovering a second stage, but this tail-landing first stage is the most exciting development in space tech in a long time. > Though it was the way rockets were depicting as landing for a long time in SF, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 23 18:41:55 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:41:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> <003601d13da0$73cde4b0$5b69ae10$@att.net> Message-ID: <005b01d13db1$99d8e810$cd8ab830$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan ? >>?I don?t know what SpaceX has in mind for recovering a second stage, but this tail-landing first stage is the most exciting development in space tech in a long time. >?Though it was the way rockets were depicting as landing for a long time in SF, no? Regards, Dan Dan are you old enough to remember the old Rod Rocket cartoons? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACz3TTTp_To That was my first exposure to the notion of a tail-first lander. Rod and his friend Joey fly the Argonaut around the solar system, occasionally battling the Rod Rocket counterparts of Boris and Natasha from the Bullwinkle show, a couple of commie cosmonauts who were the ambiguous bad guys. If you view the video, keep in mind these were made in 1963, by a couple of non-scientists. But it kept my 3-yr-old attention. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 19:32:47 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:32:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <005b01d13db1$99d8e810$cd8ab830$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <005001d13cd0$15f30fd0$41d92f70$@att.net> <008301d13cda$7a866460$6f932d20$@att.net> <3E0C3D82-A5BB-43B2-B1B8-07A585953F9F@gmail.com> <003601d13da0$73cde4b0$5b69ae10$@att.net> <005b01d13db1$99d8e810$cd8ab830$@att.net> Message-ID: On Dec 23, 2015, at 10:41 AM, spike wrote: > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan > ? > >>?I don?t know what SpaceX has in mind for recovering a second stage, but this tail-landing first stage is the most exciting development in space tech in a long time. > > > >?Though it was the way rockets were depicting as landing for a long time in SF, no? > > Dan are you old enough to remember the old Rod Rocket cartoons? No, but thanks for sharing. I'm definitely passing that along. ;) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACz3TTTp_To > > That was my first exposure to the notion of a tail-first lander. Rod and his friend Joey fly the Argonaut around the solar system, occasionally battling the Rod Rocket counterparts of Boris and Natasha from the Bullwinkle show, a couple of commie cosmonauts who were the ambiguous bad guys. > > If you view the video, keep in mind these were made in 1963, by a couple of non-scientists. But it kept my 3-yr-old attention. My first time seeing this cartoon, but I've seen plenty of old SF films -- 'Destination Moon,' for example -- where the rockets land tail first. I was watching some Twilight Zone episodes recently with that in it. I think some of them were simply running test ticket flight stock footage backward to get the effect. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 20:54:29 2015 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:54:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: For the local datavores. You too, Spike. http://www.flightclub.io/results.php?id=0490d68b-62a1-4a2a-b39a-f47bacadc6e3&code=OG22 On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:56 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > This might help: > > https://i.imgur.com/Av1zFjc.jpg > On Dec 22, 2015 00:13, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > >> On 2015-12-22 07:30, spike wrote: >> >> >> >> The wicked coolness is around 32 minutes and following. Tail first >> landings are soooo cool, I just love em. >> >> >> Beautiful. >> >> In the pictures it looks like the vehicle came in from the sea side, >> which makes sense from a safety perspective, but I can't figure out the >> orbital mechanics. >> >> -- >> Anders Sandberg >> Future of Humanity Institute >> Oxford Martin School >> Oxford University >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 23 22:02:57 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:02:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> Message-ID: <010701d13dcd$af705660$0e510320$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Van Sickle Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 12:54 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing >?For the local datavores. You too, Spike. http://www.flightclub.io/results.php?id=0490d68b-62a1-4a2a-b39a-f47bacadc6e3 &code=OG22 Coool! This was an extremely informative site. Thanks Steve! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 22:26:45 2015 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:26:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <010701d13dcd$af705660$0e510320$@att.net> References: <00a001d13c82$43ee22b0$cbca6810$@att.net> <567905E2.9040401@aleph.se> <010701d13dcd$af705660$0e510320$@att.net> Message-ID: Yeah, I just noticed it has a "watch live" feature. Gonna need two monitors for the next flight... s On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 2:02 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Stephen Van Sickle > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 23, 2015 12:54 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing > > > > >?For the local datavores. You too, Spike. > > > > > http://www.flightclub.io/results.php?id=0490d68b-62a1-4a2a-b39a-f47bacadc6e3&code=OG22 > > > > > > Coool! This was an extremely informative site. Thanks Steve! > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 23:02:07 2015 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:02:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing Message-ID: Re the subject, it's a long way from the first time a rocket landed this way. DC X and SpaceX's Grasshopper plus the other guys who beat them by a few weeks, though they only went to 100 k feet. My interest is power satellites. Skylon will cope with the traffic, but I would dearly love to have multiple transport solutions for a really large scale power satellite project. Replacing fossil fuel in a reasonable time (a decade) takes around 15 million tons per year to LEO or around 12 million tons to GEO. That's around 120 Skylon flights an hour. At a two minute headway, that would take a not unreasonable 4 runways within 1-200 km of the equator. Some descendant of a Falcon Heavy might lift 4 x the 15 ton for a Skylon. That gets it down to 30 flights an hour or one every two minutes. I can scale from aircraft operations, a million flights per year is only ten days of commercial aircraft operations, but I don't know about rockets, not sure anyone else has ever considered it. Do any of you have an idea of how many launch pads and how big the base would have to be to support a launch every two minutes? If not, any thoughts on how fast a Falcon could be turned around (restacked) and how far apart the launch pads would have to be to prevent one exploding from setting off a chain reaction? They have to be right on the equator to avoid plane change reduction in payload. I know Musk is utterly down on power satellites. Keith From spike66 at att.net Wed Dec 23 23:56:38 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:56:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003e01d13ddd$91e202f0$b5a608d0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson ... >...If not, any thoughts on... and how far apart the launch pads would have to be to prevent one exploding from setting off a chain reaction? Keith, there are unused launch pads all over the place out there on Cape Canaveral. They intentionally put them far enough apart back in the days when they envisioned that site being the world's spaceport or the launching site for Armageddon, whichever came first. >...They have to be right on the equator to avoid plane change reduction in payload... Yes however there are advantages to giving away the 50 meters per second eastward velocity to have your site up at good old 27 degrees latitude, where there are workers eager and ready to go, many of them with experience and no desire to live in South America. >...I know Musk is utterly down on power satellites...Keith _______________________________________________ His attitude will change if those turn out to be his main customer base. Businessmen are nice to those sorts, even if they don't agree with what the customers are building. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Dec 24 01:06:51 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:06:51 -0800 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <003e01d13ddd$91e202f0$b5a608d0$@att.net> References: <003e01d13ddd$91e202f0$b5a608d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <001201d13de7$5febe590$1fc3b0b0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike >>...They have to be right on the equator to avoid plane change reduction >in payload... >...Yes however there are advantages to giving away the 50 meters per second eastward velocity to have your site up at good old 27 degrees latitude, where there are workers eager and ready to go, many of them with experience and no desire to live in South America. Oops I misread your comment. For equatorial orbits there is a huge advantage to being on the equator, ja. spike From anders at aleph.se Thu Dec 24 10:15:20 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 11:15:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] space-x sticks the landing In-Reply-To: <003e01d13ddd$91e202f0$b5a608d0$@att.net> References: <003e01d13ddd$91e202f0$b5a608d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <567BC5B8.1070403@aleph.se> On 2015-12-24 00:56, spike wrote: > >> ...I know Musk is utterly down on power satellites...Keith > _______________________________________________ > > His attitude will change if those turn out to be his main customer base. > Businessmen are nice to those sorts, even if they don't agree with what the > customers are building. Yes, he thinks power sats are uneconomical, not impossible. I have no doubt he would cheerfully launch stuff for a project if somebody paid for it. However, his own personal investments are all directed towards ground solar. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 12:31:43 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 12:31:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Merry TransXmas! Message-ID: Boston Dynamics (30secs video). BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 02:18:13 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 21:18:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: <567902B6.4080204@aleph.se> References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> <567902B6.4080204@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2015-12-22 00:36, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tara Maya > wrote: > >> I?m a feminist. To paraphrase Mark Twain: ?Women are human beings. Worse >> I can say of no person." >> > > ### There is a chance for industrial-grade misunderstandings when > discussing these subjects, so let's engage in some explication. > > Is it enough to believe that women are humans to be classified as a > feminist? Isn't there something more the word, especially in its third-wave > edition? > > > I think the key problem is that we quickly get into tribalist group > affirmation signaling when talking about classifications like this. > ### Indeed, "feminism" became over the last few decades a word of power, which in many circles asserts alliance with or belonging to the ruling clique (not to be mean to you, Tara, it's just the way a lot of people use this word). My muck-raking questions on this matter are nothing but counter-signaling, a way of averring underdog status and intellectual independence. --------- > > My approach to issues like this is to drill down to some particular issue > (e.g. affirmative action policies, voting rights), state my views and > ideally reasons why I hold them, and then go back up and explain how this > fits into wider systems of thought (e.g. my own Bayesian libertarianism). > Then one can compare that to other systems, groups, issues or whatnot. But > it avoids tribalism. > ### Well, I don't like it when nice people like Mr Dilbert get raked over the coals for meekly disagreeing with the preferred narrative. So, following Lenin, I prod with the bayonet of my wit, looking for resistance or weakness. BTW, Isn't Tetlock great? Have you read "Superforecasters"? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 17:49:08 2015 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 11:49:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> <567902B6.4080204@aleph.se> Message-ID: > > Anders wrote: > I think the key problem is that we quickly get into tribalist group > affirmation signaling when talking about classifications like this. > I'd like to hear of any way to avoid this. To my mind, there is nothing more natural to the human mind than racism, sexism, conflicts between religions, ball clubs, and all the rest. The easiest thing for a person to believe is that they are better than some other person or group. When this doesn't happen, one suspects the person is depressed, too full of humility, short on self-respect, hates his own group, and so on - that is, not the usual attitude. In intellectual arguments, it goes "Yes, you are right, but ......." and adds his own take. If he doesn't, then he is a follower, not a leader, and few want that. So, if I were able to genetically modify people, one of the first things I'd modify is the Openness dimension in personality. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 2:58 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> On 2015-12-22 00:36, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Tara Maya >> wrote: >> >>> I?m a feminist. To paraphrase Mark Twain: ?Women are human beings. Worse >>> I can say of no person." >>> >> >> ### There is a chance for industrial-grade misunderstandings when >> discussing these subjects, so let's engage in some explication. >> >> Is it enough to believe that women are humans to be classified as a >> feminist? Isn't there something more the word, especially in its third-wave >> edition? >> >> >> I think the key problem is that we quickly get into tribalist group >> affirmation signaling when talking about classifications like this. >> > > ### Indeed, "feminism" became over the last few decades a word of power, > which in many circles asserts alliance with or belonging to the ruling > clique (not to be mean to you, Tara, it's just the way a lot of people use > this word). My muck-raking questions on this matter are nothing but > counter-signaling, a way of averring underdog status and intellectual > independence. > > --------- > >> >> My approach to issues like this is to drill down to some particular issue >> (e.g. affirmative action policies, voting rights), state my views and >> ideally reasons why I hold them, and then go back up and explain how this >> fits into wider systems of thought (e.g. my own Bayesian libertarianism). >> Then one can compare that to other systems, groups, issues or whatnot. But >> it avoids tribalism. >> > > ### Well, I don't like it when nice people like Mr Dilbert get raked over > the coals for meekly disagreeing with the preferred narrative. So, > following Lenin, I prod with the bayonet of my wit, looking for resistance > or weakness. > > BTW, Isn't Tetlock great? Have you read "Superforecasters"? > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Fri Dec 25 23:39:15 2015 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:39:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hello, Earth Message-ID: <201512260035.tBQ0Z2kf001078@andromeda.ziaspace.com> https://twitter.com/astro_timpeake/status/680162260946423808 >I'd like to apologise to the lady I just called by mistake saying >'Hello, is this planet Earth?' - not a prank call...just a wrong number! British astronaut Tim Peake, who recently began six months on the International Space Station, misdialed. He could have at least told them about Santa sightings out the cupola. -- David. From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 14:23:30 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:23:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Jupiter Brain rethink? Message-ID: Engineers demo first processor that uses light for ultrafast communications By Sarah Yang | December 23, 2015 Quotes: Engineers have successfully married electrons and photons within a single-chip microprocessor, a landmark development that opens the door to ultrafast, low-power data crunching. ?This is a milestone. It?s the first processor that can use light to communicate with the external world,? said Vladimir Stojanovi?, an associate professor of electrical engineering and computer sciences at the University of California, Berkeley, who led the development of the chip. ?No other processor has the photonic I/O in the chip.? ---------- Photonic processing means less power consumption and faster communication. The next step is to use photons instead of electrons to do the actual calculating, The big problem with Jupiter Brains is heat dissipation from the processing. Using photons instead of electrons might solve most of that problem. BillK From anders at aleph.se Mon Dec 28 20:04:06 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:04:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Jupiter Brain rethink? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <568195B6.7010702@aleph.se> On 2015-12-28 15:23, BillK wrote: > The big problem with Jupiter Brains is heat dissipation from the > processing. Using photons instead of electrons might solve most of > that problem. Nope :-) While photonics probably avoids a lot of the dissipation of electron movement, the fundamental limits I used in my paper are implementation-independent (if you erase information you have to pay a thermodynamic cost of kTln(2)). A version even applies to quantum computation, which is naturally reversible (but when you set up quantum states or perform measurements dissipation happens). Still, the Nature paper is nice. I liked how they made something that was compatible with existing manufacturing and software, rather than requiring an entirely new toolset. We can likely make our computing better this way. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 29 01:39:18 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:39:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] big cat? Message-ID: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> I am not sure what to make of this: http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/12/28/big-schr-dingers-cats-created.html ?intcmp=trending They don't offer useful free references; only the 24 December issue of Nature, but I don't have a subscription to that. Might get one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 05:28:43 2015 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 00:28:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] heeeeeeehehehehehehheheeeee In-Reply-To: References: <002001d135c5$9999fbd0$cccdf370$@att.net> <7198A43D-0B02-46B2-847E-9A6978E51A3D@gmail.com> <6DFF3E71-106D-4BF7-9A4E-EE0501352794@taramayastales.com> <567902B6.4080204@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 12:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: So, if I were able to genetically modify people, one of the first things > I'd modify is the Openness dimension in personality. > ### I don't think I would want to further increase my offspring's openness. I would strongly consider reducing neuroticism, slightly reducing agreeableness, carefully calibrating extraversion, and significantly boosting conscientiousness. That of course, after massively boosting IQ and predicted healthy lifespan, optimizing immune function, boosting strength and endurance, and giving them a pleasing yet unique appearance. Soon, elves will walk the Earth, without the silly ears. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 29 13:13:34 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:13:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] big cat? In-Reply-To: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> References: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> Message-ID: <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> On 2015-12-29 02:39, spike wrote: > > > http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/12/28/big-schr-dingers-cats-created.html?intcmp=trending > > They don?t offer useful free references; only the 24 December issue of > Nature, but I don?t have a subscription to that. Might get one. > The paper is this one http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v528/n7583/full/nature16155.html Yes, the distance involved was 54 cm. But we are still talking about 100,000 atoms in an optical trap, not a quantum lion. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 14:58:54 2015 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:58:54 +0000 Subject: [ExI] big cat? In-Reply-To: <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> References: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 29 December 2015 at 13:13, Anders Sandberg wrote: > The paper is this one > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v528/n7583/full/nature16155.html > > Yes, the distance involved was 54 cm. But we are still talking about 100,000 > atoms in an optical trap, not a quantum lion. > Nature also has an editorial opinion here: Quote: To be clear, science is not close to putting a person or a cat into quantum superposition. Many say that, because of the way large objects interact with the environment, we will never be able to measure a person?s quantum behaviour. But it?s Christmas, so indulge us. If we could, and if we could be aware of such a superposition state, then how would we feel? Because ?feeling? would amount to measuring the wave function of the object, and because measuring causes the wave function to collapse, it should really feel like, well, nothing ? or perhaps just a grin. ------------- BillK From spike66 at att.net Tue Dec 29 15:46:57 2015 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 07:46:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] big cat? In-Reply-To: <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> References: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> Message-ID: <003f01d14250$27475c20$75d61460$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 5:14 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] big cat? On 2015-12-29 02:39, spike wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/science/2015/12/28/big-schr-dingers-cats-created.html ?intcmp=trending They don't offer useful free references; only the 24 December issue of Nature, but I don't have a subscription to that. Might get one. >.The paper is this one http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v528/n7583/full/nature16155.html Thanks Anders! >.Yes, the distance involved was 54 cm. But we are still talking about 100,000 atoms in an optical trap, not a quantum lion. -- Anders Sandberg Well ja. But if I had a 54 cm cat in a box and didn't know if he was dead until I open it, I would still bring along Mister Remington just to make sure no quantum uncertainty would leap out of there and disembowel my philosophical ass. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Dec 29 16:11:33 2015 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:11:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] big cat? In-Reply-To: <003f01d14250$27475c20$75d61460$@att.net> References: <00fd01d141d9$bcdb4390$3691cab0$@att.net> <568286FE.8090902@aleph.se> <003f01d14250$27475c20$75d61460$@att.net> Message-ID: <5682B0B5.3000406@aleph.se> On 2015-12-29 16:46, spike wrote: > Well ja. But if I had a 54 cm cat in a box and didn?t know if he was > dead until I open it, I would still bring along Mister Remington just > to make sure no quantum uncertainty would leap out of there and > disembowel my philosophical ass. Classical guns are so boring, projecting (1/sqrt(2))[|live cat>+|dead cat>] onto 1*|dead cat>. Not even unitary. Use a quantum Remington instead, rotating it into (1/sqrt(2))[|dead cat>+|grateful ex-dead cat>]. -- Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:13:02 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:13:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year Message-ID: One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ================ Happy New Year all. I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an eight's grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to meabout it in a dream. PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 06:11:39 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:11:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with your prediction, because if a research paper with positive psi results is submitted to Nature or Science it won't be published, regardless of the quality of the research. Such is the power of political correctness and enforced consensus. On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 7:13 PM, John Clark wrote: > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > Happy New Year all. > > I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in > Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, > after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no > training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the > good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this > very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I > predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about it.You > might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an eight's > grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the > Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in > Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true > because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to meabout it in a > dream. > > PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from > today. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 11:09:09 2015 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:09:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Everything_That_Rises_=E2=80=93_Modern_Cosmism_fe?= =?utf-8?q?atured_in_Harper=E2=80=99s_Magazine?= Message-ID: The prestigious Harper?s Magazine features the recent Modern Cosmism conference (New York, October 10, 2015) in an article titled Everything That Rises, published online and in the January 2016 issue of the print magazine... http://turingchurch.com/2015/12/31/everything-that-rises-modern-cosmism-featured-in-harpers-magazine/ Happy New Year to all! From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 16:49:23 2015 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 11:49:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: ?> ? > I agree with your prediction, ? I further predict ? ? a research paper ? ? WITH ? ? positive psi results ? ? WILL appear on a weekly basis in nearly every supermarket tabloid in the country, along with horoscopes, evidence of ancient aliens and flying saucers, predictions of Nostradamus, and most important of all diet tips from soap opera stars. ? ? I further predict that despite this positive buzz at the checkout lane not one entrepreneur will start a billion dollar ps ?i? startup company in Silicon Valley. ?> ? > because if a research paper with > ? ? > positive psi results is submitted to Nature or Science it won't be > ? ? > published, regardless of the quality of the research. Such is the > ? ? > power of political correctness and enforced consensus. > ?That is the same lame excuse I've heard countless times in past years, and that is the same lame excuse I have no doubt I will hear next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, and the year after that, and the [...]. At some point a logical person has to ask himself if maybe just maybe the desire for something to be true (and there is no denying psi would be fun) has deluded yourself into believing it is true. Look, over the last century respectable scientific journals have published experimental results in fundamental physics that nobody predicted and nobody has a explanation for to this day, like the violation of Bell's inequality, the singularity at the center of a Black Hole, neutrino mass and oscillation, the existence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy and the fact that we are completely ignorant about 96% of the stuff in the universe. The journals were delighted to publish all that because the existence of those things was overwhelming and if nobody could explain how it could be ? that way then tough. But you say that for some strange reason psy is different from any of those mysteries, you claim that even though the evidence for the existence of psi is rock solid not one respectable scientific journal will publish this extremely interesting fact about the physical universe because it's not politically correct. And you claim this worldwide conspiracy of silence that science has engaged in has been going on for centuries and will continue into the indefinite future. I think that claim is bullshit. ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 17:05:49 2015 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:05:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The total induction can be applied to your prediction, John! It follows from this: > PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from today. So in fact it's a prediction for the whole future, not only for the next year! (Still valid, I guess.) On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 5:49 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > ?> ? >> I agree with your prediction, > > > ? > I further predict > ? ? > a research paper > ? ? > WITH > ? ? > positive psi results > ? ? > WILL appear on a weekly basis in nearly every supermarket tabloid in the > country, along with horoscopes, evidence of ancient aliens and flying > saucers, predictions of Nostradamus, and most important of all diet tips > from soap opera stars. > ? ? > I further predict that despite this positive buzz at the checkout lane not > one entrepreneur will start a billion dollar ps > ?i? > startup company in Silicon Valley. > > ?> ? >> because if a research paper with >> ? ? >> positive psi results is submitted to Nature or Science it won't be >> ? ? >> published, regardless of the quality of the research. Such is the >> ? ? >> power of political correctness and enforced consensus. >> > > ?That is the same lame excuse I've heard countless times in past years, > and that is the same lame excuse I have no doubt I will hear next year, and > the year after that, and the year after that, and the year after that, and > the [...]. At some point a logical person has to ask himself if maybe just > maybe the desire for something to be true (and there is no denying psi > would be fun) has deluded yourself into believing it is true. > > Look, over the last century respectable scientific journals have published > experimental results in fundamental physics that nobody predicted and > nobody has a explanation for to this day, like the violation of Bell's > inequality, the singularity at the center of a Black Hole, neutrino mass > and oscillation, the existence of Dark Matter and Dark Energy and the fact > that we are completely ignorant about 96% of the stuff in the universe. The > journals were delighted to publish all that because the existence of those > things was overwhelming and if nobody could explain how it could be > ? that way then tough. > But you say that for some strange reason psy is different from any of > those mysteries, you claim that even though the evidence for the existence > of psi is rock solid not one respectable scientific journal will publish > this extremely interesting fact about the physical universe because it's > not politically correct. And you claim this worldwide conspiracy of silence > that science has engaged in has been going on for centuries and will > continue into the indefinite future. I think that claim is bullshit. > ? > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Dec 31 17:11:31 2015 From: natasha at natasha.cc (natasha at natasha.cc) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:11:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Happy New Year 2016! Message-ID: <020601d143ee$4bf6adb0$e3e40910$@natasha.cc> All - A toast to your health, long life, and prosperity! Cheers - Natasha Here's a toast to the future, a toast to the past, and a toast to our friends, far and near. May the future be pleasant, the past a bright dream. May our friends remain faithful and dear. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 20:34:08 2015 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:34:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy New Year 2016! In-Reply-To: <020601d143ee$4bf6adb0$e3e40910$@natasha.cc> References: <020601d143ee$4bf6adb0$e3e40910$@natasha.cc> Message-ID: <38B4C251-8728-4303-B9FC-92221520052B@gmail.com> Thanks! And same to you and all the rest! Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst > On Dec 31, 2015, at 9:11 AM, wrote: > > All - > > A toast to your health, long life, and prosperity! > > Cheers - > > Natasha > > Here?s a toast to the future, a toast to the past, and a toast to our friends, far and near. May the future be pleasant, the past a bright dream. May our friends remain faithful and dear. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 19:48:25 2015 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 06:48:25 +1100 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh great but apparently crazy seer, you have done this 10 times in a row and been right? What manner of trickery is this?? This 10-straight winning streak is grounds for starting a religion. You might consider that when you reach a 5-sigma CERN-level of statistical certainty. Then write a letter to Nature during a full moon with a comet sighting and planetary alignment... for maximum credibility. All the best for next year! cheers colin On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 5:13 AM, John Clark wrote: > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ================ > > Happy New Year all. > > I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in > Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, > after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no > training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the > good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this > very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I > predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about > it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with > an eight's grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the > Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN > in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is > true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to meabout it > in a dream. > > PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year > from today. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: