From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 04:05:57 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 00:05:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 6:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> ?Then you will live in ignorance. bill w? > > ### Better not to know than know something that ain't so. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 14:53:03 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 10:53:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs Message-ID: ? And ? ? Greenpeace ?told the ? ? 107 Nobel laureates ? ? to go to hell. Greenpeace said ? ? the scientists ? ? were just engaging in a publicity stunt, and they know more science than the 107 Nobel laureates ? ? and so will continue to oppose GMOs. And people wonder why I hate environmentalists. ? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/29/more-than-100-nobel-laureates-take-on-greenpeace-over-gmo-stance/ John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 16:12:41 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 11:12:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book validated for doubters Message-ID: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2014/03/20/has-the-flip-flop-on-saturated-fat-made-your-head-spin/ I will provide a lot more to Rafal or whoever is not convinced. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 20:10:06 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 15:10:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope you mean extreme environmentalists. Surely you are not in favor of pollution, etc. ?I am an environmentalists and the link below is good news to me.? ?bill w? On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 9:53 AM, John Clark wrote: > ? > And > ? ? > Greenpeace > ?told > the > ? ? > 107 Nobel laureates > ? ? > to go to hell. Greenpeace said > ? ? > the scientists > ? ? > were just engaging in a publicity stunt, and they know more science than > the 107 Nobel laureates > ? ? > and so will continue to oppose GMOs. > > ?? > And people wonder why I hate environmentalists. ? > > > https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/06/29/more-than-100-nobel-laureates-take-on-greenpeace-over-gmo-stance/ > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 22:21:45 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 17:21:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins Message-ID: http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2015/10/05/statins-are-not-a-magic-bullet-for-longer-life/ Want to live a few days longer? Maybe even a couple of weeks? That's all statins will do for you, according to this research. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 02:07:57 2016 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 19:07:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Man dies while driven by Tesla Autopilot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <577721FD.3070403@gmail.com> On 06/30/2016 03:55 PM, BillK wrote: > First fatality of robot cars. > > > > Quote: > Tesla is a ?supervised? system where the driver is required to agree > they are monitoring the system and will take control in the event of > any problem. > > A core issue is that the autopilot works too well, and I have seen > reports from many Tesla drivers of them trusting it far more than they > should. The autopilot is fine if used as Tesla directs, but the better > it gets, the more it encourages people to over-trust it. > ----------- As I understand it the driver was speeding. So there doesn't seem to be a lot of evidence the autopilot was at fault. - samantha From sjatkins at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 02:20:01 2016 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 19:20:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Critical take on The Age of Em In-Reply-To: References: <872591BD-C19F-494C-8249-AC92B1B08B19@gmail.com> <53947B0E-67C0-4282-959A-06525952316F@gmu.edu> <78E77BF0-FE0C-47DD-97BC-64D13018E2CB@gmu.edu> Message-ID: <577724D1.6080206@gmail.com> On 06/26/2016 05:27 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Robin D Hanson >wrote: > > ? > ? > You don?t know that human brains are any more modular than is > typical software. > > > ?True.? > > > ? > ? > You don?t know that it only embodies a small number of principles, > without masses of other implementation details also required for > it work. > > > But we do know from the size of the genome so that mass of those other > implementation details can't be significantly larger than what > software engineers are already accustomed to. Of course because the > code was nor written by a human being it could still be hard for them > to figure out why it works, but as long as they know it does work > perhaps they don't need to know why to reverse engineer it. If you arguing from the size of the genome then that is a bit odd. The brain physically is produced from the genome over many years to full maturity. So you have a bit of generative code that unfolds into something resembling an adult brain. OK. Now what about all that content only vaguely caught by neural net type things. And NNs are notoriously opaque to understand the workings of quite unlike software most SEs deal with. We go out of our way to avoid even modestly adaptive software systems that self modify over time. The brain is a quite massive adaptive system. It is unclear whether and how soon the full enough brain state can be capture in vivo and exactly what kind of computational substrate is needed to run such a captured brain state. To resolve that we do need to know a lot more about the brain and perhaps about what parts of what the brain does we do and do not want to have in our simulations/uploads/EMs. If we just take the entire think then getting a rich enough simulation environment for the upload to not go mad from lack of expected interactions. Thus the simulation living environment becomes more complex if the entire brain is taken including the need for simulated autonomous nervous system, etc. I do have some hope and working hypothesis that a lot of a human brain is mostly the same across all human brains with a much smaller set of stuff that makes it unique. But again we have to know a lot more about the brain to figure out which is which. I could be wrong but I have long had the opinion that getting to AGI by uploading a human brain effectively is sort of like getting to human flight capability by scaling up literal birds, flapping and such and all. I think that we will arrive at distinctly not human AGI by a mixture of methods long before we have true human upload capability. - samantha > > ? > ? > And you don?t know that the many different parts of the brain are > all written in the same ?language?. > > > ? Language might not be the right word but I think there is some > reason to believe there is a common architecture throughout mammalian > brains. In the April 20 2000 issue of the journal Nature > Mriganka Sur > ? reports that he ?connected the nerves from the eyes of > newborn ferret > ? s? > > ?to the part of the brain normally used to process hearing, and the > animals grew into adults that saw normally. So although different > parts of the brain process different types of information the various > regions can't be very specialized. > > John K Clark ? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 03:52:12 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 23:52:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Critical take on The Age of Em In-Reply-To: <577724D1.6080206@gmail.com> References: <872591BD-C19F-494C-8249-AC92B1B08B19@gmail.com> <53947B0E-67C0-4282-959A-06525952316F@gmu.edu> <78E77BF0-FE0C-47DD-97BC-64D13018E2CB@gmu.edu> <577724D1.6080206@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:20 PM, Samantha Atkins wrote: ?>> ? >> we do know from the size of the genome so that mass of those other >> implementation details can't be significantly larger than what software >> engineers are already accustomed to. Of course because the code was nor >> written by a human being it could still be hard for them to figure out why >> it works, but as long as they know it does work perhaps they don't need to >> know why to reverse engineer it. > > > ?> *?* > *If you arguing from the size of the genome then that is a bit odd. The > brain physically is produced from the genome * > The adult brain is different from a newborn's because ? ? it has learned from ? ? events in the environment, but so would a ?n? AI. The question is how complicated does a machine have to be to ?be ? able to learn and become intelligent at a human level? Well, the entire human genome is 750 meg with about half of that used for the brain, so at most the instructions for building a seed AI would have to be about 375 meg, and almost certainly less than that and probably a lot less. ?> ? > *over many years to full maturity.* ?How long a cake needs to bake in the oven tells you nothing about the length of the recipe. ? ?>* ?* > *And NNs are notoriously opaque to understand the workings of quite unlike > software most SEs deal with.* > ?True, but once the seed AI is built humans no longer have to understand how it's mind works, we just introduce it to the world and let it learn stuff just as we do with a human child. ? ?> *?* > *I could be wrong but I have long had the opinion that getting to AGI by > uploading a human brain effectively is sort of like getting to human flight > capability by scaling up literal birds, flapping and such and all. * > ?I think so too but like you it's only a hunch and I could be wrong.? ?> ? > I think that we will arrive at distinctly not human AGI by a mixture of > methods long before we have true human upload capability. > ?But I think once machine intelligence has been achieved, either by AI or reverse engineering the human brain and uploading, nothing will take very long anymore; things will start to change at a breakneck pace. And I mean that literally, human biological necks could very well end up getting broken. ? ? John K Clark? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:06:03 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 02:06:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 4:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I hope you mean extreme environmentalists. Surely you are not in favor of > pollution, etc. > ### Well, I am a transhumanist, a subspecies of humanist, and therefore I do oppose all environmentalists (sorry, nothing personal). I am in favor of pollution, whenever it suits human interests. It's OK to discharge poisons into the air, water and earth, as long as the net effect on (trans)humanity is beneficial. We breathe, pee, generate solid waste and in other ways damage our environment but it is right and proper to do so, provided we mind the interests of other humans. But it is wrong to make peremptory demands on other humans under the pretext of protecting the reified "Environment", an inhuman moral subject of its own. Those who are alive have to deal with some shit. It's only necessary make sure it does not fall on other humans, nothing less, nothing more. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:13:16 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 02:13:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] book validated for doubters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 12:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2014/03/20/has-the-flip-flop-on-saturated-fat-made-your-head-spin/ > > I will provide a lot more to Rafal or whoever is not convinced. > ### You are preaching to the choir :) I have known that fat and cholesterol can no longer be blamed for modern health problems for a few years now and I have purged (heh) all low-fat items from my menu accordingly. I eat the fattest ribeye I can get, drink grass-fed whole milk, and scramble pasture-raised eggs on thick slices of bacon. And finish it off with the highest-calorie ice-cream with home-made chocolate sauce. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 06:55:24 2016 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 08:55:24 +0200 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A dual loyalty, to people on one hand and to an entity frequently hostile to people like the Mother Nature on the other - cannot work anyway. Sooner or later one has to decide between the two. Or at least, which one has an absolute priority. Worshiping Environment is quite a silly paganism by my book. On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 8:06 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 4:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> I hope you mean extreme environmentalists. Surely you are not in favor >> of pollution, etc. >> > > ### Well, I am a transhumanist, a subspecies of humanist, and therefore I > do oppose all environmentalists (sorry, nothing personal). I am in favor of > pollution, whenever it suits human interests. It's OK to discharge poisons > into the air, water and earth, as long as the net effect on (trans)humanity > is beneficial. We breathe, pee, generate solid waste and in other ways > damage our environment but it is right and proper to do so, provided we > mind the interests of other humans. But it is wrong to make peremptory > demands on other humans under the pretext of protecting the reified > "Environment", an inhuman moral subject of its own. > > Those who are alive have to deal with some shit. It's only necessary make > sure it does not fall on other humans, nothing less, nothing more. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 16:39:56 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 12:39:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 4:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > I hope you mean extreme environmentalists. Surely you are not in favor of > pollution, etc. > ?I am an environmentalists and the link below is good news to me.? > At one time I ?too ? called myself an ? ? environmentalists ? ? but no longer, the very word has become polluted and no longer means what it once did. Every large mainstream environmental organization opposes insecticides herbicides and artificial fertilizer but they also oppose genetically modified plants even though they don't need those chemicals. ? ? Today every large ? ? mainstream ? ? environmental organization opposes the use of Golden Rice even though it could prevent 2 million people dying every year and a half a million children going blind because it is a GMO and even though 108 Nobel Prize winners (up from yesterday's 107) say GMOs are beneficial. To environmentalists the shooting of one gorilla at a zoo is a great tragedy but 8 million people starving to death each year (which GMO's could help prevent) is just a statistic. And of course every large mainstream ? ? environmental organization opposes ? ? greenhouse gasses, but they also oppose nuclear power plants even though they produce no greenhouse gasses and have the best safety record of any power source. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 16:58:32 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 11:58:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 107 Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 2, 2016 at 11:39 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 4:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > ?> ? >> I hope you mean extreme environmentalists. Surely you are not in favor >> of pollution, etc. >> ?I am an environmentalists and the link below is good news to me.? >> > > At one time I > ?too ? > called myself an > ? ? > environmentalists > ? ? > but no longer, the very word has become polluted and no longer means what > it once did. Every large mainstream environmental organization opposes > insecticides herbicides and artificial fertilizer but they also oppose > genetically modified plants even though they don't need those chemicals. > ? ? > Today every large > ? ? > mainstream > ? ? > environmental organization opposes the use of Golden Rice even though it > could prevent 2 million people dying every year and a half a million > children going blind because it is a GMO and even though 108 Nobel Prize > winners (up from yesterday's 107) say GMOs are beneficial. To > environmentalists the shooting of one gorilla at a zoo is a great tragedy > but 8 million people starving to death each year (which GMO's could help > prevent) is just a statistic. > > And of course every large mainstream > ? ? > environmental organization opposes > ? ? > greenhouse gasses, but they also oppose nuclear power plants even though > they produce no greenhouse gasses and have the best safety record of any > power source. > > John K Clark > ?I agree with everything you say. The organizations are just too extreme. But that should not poison the well. If we stop all antipollution laws we will over pollute our planet. But in some cases we are not extreme enough. Case in point: fertilizers. They are way overused and run off in to creeks and eventually the ocean. Why not limit the amount each farmer can use based on his farm size? (That might also stop some bombing!) We need clean air and nuclear power plants can replace the coal ones. Why can't we have a real debate on anything nowadays without extremists from both sides dominating the issue?? ?Everything seems so polarized and I am not the only one saying so. ? ? Further: we libertarians have to concede that the feds have a place in the world. We need more regulation like inspection of foreign foods we import. That's a wide open door for terrorists to get through.? ? The supplements we take are unregulated: Consumer Reports says that many supplements don't have what the label says they have, or not in the amounts they say they do. Where is the FDA? I will always be an environmentalist, but maybe without a capital E. I do not contribute to those organizations you are referring to. I knew that they were too extreme long ago. But you know? No one's perfect. Moderation in all things - Socrates bill w? > > > > > >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 21:54:13 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 22:54:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Ambiguous Cylinder Illusion Message-ID: Puts cylinders in front of a mirror and reflection is squares. And vice-versa. (1 min). And once you are befuddled and confused..... Ambiguous Cylinder Illusion // How it Works (2 min). BillK From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 22:46:52 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 23:46:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Privacy: Google My Activity Message-ID: Google My Activity is a new site that shows everything that Google knows about its users ? and there?s a lot. The new site collects every website you?ve been on, everything you?ve searched and many of the things you?ve done with your phone If you are shocked by the amount of Google tracking displayed, Google allows you to turn off many options in your Google privacy settings. In my case, My Activity is completely empty, but you need to do more than just switch off Google settings. (Using ad blocking software and an alternative search engine like DuckDuckGo or Startpage is a good start). BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:00:06 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 09:00:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reefer madness - or not? Message-ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/healthline-/marijuana-compound-remove_b_10775836.html Ironic? Happy 4th! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 14:43:38 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 09:43:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history Message-ID: December 15, 1791 Articles 3 to 12, ratified *December 15, 1791*, by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights. Greatest document in history, no question - is there? Can you name the five rights in article 1? (I got four) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 4 15:34:47 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 08:34:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018401d1d609$9984ec10$cc8ec430$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Monday, July 04, 2016 7:44 AM Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history December 15, 1791 >?Articles 3 to 12, ratified December 15, 1791, by three-fourths of the state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights. Greatest document in history, no question - is there? Can you name the five rights in article 1? (I got four) bill w Thanks BillW! I only recalled three: speech, assembly and religion. Identifying the ten amendments in the BoR, I managed 7 out of 10. It was a good reminder I need to review amendments 6,7 and 9. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 16:28:26 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 11:28:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: <018401d1d609$9984ec10$cc8ec430$@att.net> References: <018401d1d609$9984ec10$cc8ec430$@att.net> Message-ID: I missed the right to petition. bill w On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 10:34 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Monday, July 04, 2016 7:44 AM > *Subject:* [ExI] greatest date in history > > > > December 15, 1791 > > >?Articles 3 to 12, ratified *December 15, 1791*, by three-fourths of the > state legislatures, constitute the first 10 amendments of the Constitution, > known as the Bill of Rights. > > Greatest document in history, no question - is there? > > Can you name the five rights in article 1? (I got four) > > bill w > > > > > > > > > > Thanks BillW! > > > > I only recalled three: speech, assembly and religion. > > > > Identifying the ten amendments in the BoR, I managed 7 out of 10. It was > a good reminder I need to review amendments 6,7 and 9. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 16:31:37 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 11:31:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions I just bought this based on reviews - saw it is SciAmer. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 22:24:38 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 18:24:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Greatest document in history, no question - is there? ?The old joke is the constitution needed a good editor who would have kept the "? Congress shall make no law ?" ?part and cut out everything after that. More seriously it does seem unnecessarily verbose. A rticle 1 ? says"? ? *"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."* ?I would have trimmed it down to:? *Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble?.? * ?Freedom of speech and assembly covers a lot of ground, you can never list all the things you can do with those freedoms and I don't think religious speech is more important than other types of speech and if you have freedom of speech you can use it to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, so they shouldn't have been specifically mentioned. ? John K Clark "? ?"? ? > Can you name the five rights in article 1? (I got four) > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 06:29:24 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 23:29:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:24 PM, John Clark wrote: > Freedom of speech and assembly covers a lot of ground, you can never list > all the things you can do with those freedoms and I don't think religious > speech is more important than other types of speech and if you have freedom > of speech you can use it to petition the Government for a redress of > grievances, so they shouldn't have been specifically mentioned. ? > Keep in mind the times when it was written. One could, back then, conceive of a government that took such petitions as the equivalent of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater: speech intended to be dangerous, and thus not falling under free speech protections. Likewise, just because a state-sponsored religion hasn't been established does not itself prevent laws against practicing certain forms of religion (which amount to an end run to establish one, without technically establishing one). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 17:28:48 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 13:28:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 2:29 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: ?>> ? >> Freedom of speech and assembly covers a lot of ground, you can never list >> all the things you can do with those freedoms and I don't think religious >> speech is more important than other types of speech and if you have freedom >> of speech you can use it to petition the Government for a redress of >> grievances, so they shouldn't have been specifically mentioned. ? >> > > ?> ? > Keep in mind the times when it was written. One could, back then, > conceive of a government that took such petitions as the equivalent of > shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater: > ?I don't think one should be allowed to ?shout anything in a crowded theater except for fire if there really was a fire; you have a right to speak but you don't have a right to make me listen. Incidentally that metaphor came from a decision from Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes involving those who spoke out against the USA being in the first world war, Holmes later regretted it calling it the worst decision in his legal career. But the saying lives on. ?? > ?> ? > speech intended to be dangerous, and thus not falling under free speech > protections. Likewise, just because a state-sponsored religion hasn't been > established does not itself prevent laws against practicing certain forms > of religion > ?As long as you could meet with like minded religious believers ?and speak and write about your religion what would a law against that religion even mean? Yes somebody could claim (and unfortunately some have) that although freedom of speech specifies that you can say anything it doesn't mean you can say "*that*", but there are an infinite number of things you can say and you can't list them all, so I see no reason religious speech and activities should be singled out for special protection over and above all other forms of speech and activities. And singling out religion is the reason religious charities have rights that non-religious charities do not; churches don't even have to file an application for recognition of tax-exempt status as non-religious charities do, they get it automatically. Also the IRS requires non-religious charities to file form 990 every year detailing what they are doing with their money, but religious organizations don't have to, nobody knows what they do with their money. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 17:49:55 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 12:49:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] greatest date in history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: but religious organizations don't have to, nobody knows what they do with their money. John K Clark I do. The occasional missionary, but mainly a bigger church. They spend it on themselves - excluding the Salvation Army, which does a lot of good. I suppose Catholic charities and others do some good work too, but I'd sure like to know how much goes to Rome to buy more million dollar sculptures, etc. Do you imagine what voters would do if you tried to make religions file the tax thing? Senators and Congressmen do. They don't pay local taxes either, such as for the upkeep of their roads. Not how you would design a society if you were starting out, but difficult to change once in place. Too hot a potato. bill w On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:28 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 2:29 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > ?>> ? >>> Freedom of speech and assembly covers a lot of ground, you can never >>> list all the things you can do with those freedoms and I don't think >>> religious speech is more important than other types of speech and if you >>> have freedom of speech you can use it to petition the Government for a >>> redress of grievances, so they shouldn't have been specifically >>> mentioned. ? >>> >> >> ?> ? >> Keep in mind the times when it was written. One could, back then, >> conceive of a government that took such petitions as the equivalent of >> shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater: >> > > ?I don't think one should be allowed to ?shout anything in a crowded > theater except for fire if there really was a fire; you have a right to > speak but you don't have a right to make me listen. Incidentally that > metaphor came from a decision from Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes involving > those who spoke out against the USA being in the first world war, Holmes > later regretted it calling it the worst decision in his legal career. But > the saying lives on. > > ?? > > >> ?> ? >> speech intended to be dangerous, and thus not falling under free speech >> protections. Likewise, just because a state-sponsored religion hasn't been >> established does not itself prevent laws against practicing certain forms >> of religion >> > > ?As long as you could meet with like minded religious believers ?and speak > and write about your religion what would a law against that religion even > mean? Yes somebody could claim (and unfortunately some have) that although > freedom of speech specifies that you can say anything it doesn't mean you > can say "*that*", but there are an infinite number of things you can say > and you can't list them all, so I see no reason religious speech and > activities should be singled out for special protection over and above all > other forms of speech and activities. And singling out religion is the > reason religious charities have rights that non-religious charities do not; > churches don't even have to file an application for recognition of > tax-exempt status as non-religious charities do, they get it automatically. > Also the IRS requires non-religious charities to file form 990 every year > detailing what they are doing with their money, but religious organizations > don't have to, nobody knows what they do with their money. > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Jul 4 20:47:56 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2016 21:47:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> Met the author, decided to buy when it came out. We had a very nice conversation about stochastic gradient descent in everyday life decisions. Have the book in my office now. On 2016-07-04 17:31, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions > > > I just bought this based on reviews - saw it is SciAmer. > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbert at mydruthers.com Tue Jul 5 18:17:57 2016 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:17:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> William Flynn Wallace replied > Further: we libertarians have to concede that the feds have a place > in the world. We need more regulation like inspection of foreign > foods we import. Even if I concede that there is a role for a Federal government, intervention in the food market is not necessarily part of it. Private organizations certifying the content would do just fine. And very little of the foreign imports are getting to consumers through roadside stands and farmer's markets. It's mostly coming in through grocery chains who have a lot to lose if they're not paying attention to what they sell. If the Feds weren't assuring us that the food is all safe (when we know they can't have (and don't claim to have) inspected and monitored everything then the shippers and sellers would spend more of their own money on it. > That's a wide open door for terrorists to get through. If terrorists want to poison our food supply to get us, they could do it domestically just as easily. > The supplements we take are unregulated: Consumer Reports says that many > supplements don't have what the label says they have, or not in the amounts > they say they do. Where is the FDA? We aren't going to give the FDA enough money to monitor everything, so we'd be better off finding another way (Consumer Reports comes to mind) to inspect and label. Chris From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 18:54:27 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 13:54:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> References: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Anders wrote: > Met the author, decided to buy when it came out. We had a very nice > conversation about stochastic gradient descent in everyday life decisions. > > Have the book in my office now. > ?UhOh, that means that I won't be able to understand a word of it! Rats! bill w? > > On 2016-07-04 17:31, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Algorithms to Live By: The Computer Science of Human Decisions > > I just bought this based on reviews - saw it is SciAmer. > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 19:03:06 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:03:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Chris Hibbert wrote: > William Flynn Wallace replied > >> Further: we libertarians have to concede that the feds have a place >> in the world. We need more regulation like inspection of foreign >> foods we import. >> > > Even if I concede that there is a role for a Federal government, > intervention in the food market is not necessarily part of it. > > Private organizations certifying the content would do just fine. And very > little of the foreign imports are getting to consumers through roadside > stands and farmer's markets. It's mostly coming in through grocery chains > who have a lot to lose if they're not paying attention to what they sell. > If the Feds weren't assuring us that the food is all safe (when we know > they can't have (and don't claim to have) inspected and monitored > everything then the shippers and sellers would spend more of their own > money on it. > > > That's a wide open door for terrorists to get through. > > ?? > If terrorists want to poison our food supply to get us, they could do it > domestically just as easily. > > The supplements we take are unregulated: Consumer Reports says that many >> supplements don't have what the label says they have, or not in the >> amounts >> they say they do. Where is the FDA? >> > > We aren't going to give the FDA enough money to monitor everything, so > we'd be better off finding another way (Consumer Reports comes to mind) to > inspect and label. > > Chris > ?I have utterly no objection to private business doing these things, but nobody is - mostly. CR does do a good job but they are very limited by money. I support them. No, we aren't going to give regulators more money. Repubs to blame. Hell, they won't even give the IRS enough money to hire more people to make more money than it would take to pay them. Stupid stupid. ????? ?? If terrorists want to poison our food supply to get us, they could do it domestically just as easily. All the more reason to give the FDA more money. I am not a conspiracy theorist - by a very long shot. But we are not being careful enough about our water supply, food supply, drugs, power stations, and more. Remember when someone, never caught, poisoned Tylenol, leading to the kind of packaging we have nowadays? That could look like very small change. I hope I am wrong. bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 20:20:52 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 13:20:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:03 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I have utterly no objection to private business doing these things, but nobody is > - mostly. CR does do a good job but they are very limited by money. I support > them. Who or what is not limited by money in this? There's the issue here, if you're not really concerned about giving the federal government even more power and you're not worried about its overall competency, of whether the threat you're worried about is that big a deal. What's a good reasonable range for estimating this risk? > No, we aren't going to give regulators more money. Repubs to blame. Hell, they > won't even give the IRS enough money to hire more people to make more money > than it would take to pay them. Stupid stupid. If the GOP were actually shrinking the federal government, that would be a great thing IMO. They are not. I'd rather them have less power to tax -- not more. Yes, that would give less for your favorite programs here and it's not costless. But the federal government is by no means shrinking even in this area. >> If terrorists want to poison our food supply to get us, they could do it domestically just as easily. > > All the more reason to give the FDA more money. I'm not so sure about that. The FDA already has a big budget. It already does enough harm as it is, especially in attacking things like supplements and in slowing innovation down to a crawl. As a libertarian, I'd expect you not to ignore that actual danger posed by the FDA -- rather than worry about the potential risk of terrorists poisoning the food supply.) > I am not a conspiracy theorist - by a very long shot. What does that term even mean? Do you believe no conspiracies ever happen? The term is too loosely used, I think. There are valid conspiracies -- viz., ones that it would be unreasonable not to believe in. And then there are ones that it would be unreasonable -- given the evidence -- to believe in. But a tout court disbelief in conspiracies is unwarranted. > But we are not being careful enough about our water supply, food supply, drugs, > power stations, and more. Wouldn't another libertarian approach be much more reasonable here: stop stirring the pot for terrorism by getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures and playing global cop? This would remove much of the incentive for terrorism in the first place. Sure, some terrorism will still occur, but it will likely be very low -- just like some theft still occurs. (Actually, the base rate for terrorism seems really, really low. Were this not so, we would so far more of it -- just not more of in well guarded places. This is unlike armed robbery, where when they started better securing banks, it switched to liquor stores and gas stations. So it would seem the base rate for terrorism is much lower than for armed robbery.) > Remember when someone, never caught, poisoned Tylenol, leading to the kind > of packaging we have nowadays? That could look like very small change. I > hope I am wrong. But your suggestion here is something much larger: a more extensive and more well funded FDA and not a change in packaging. Now, you could argue you can't have one without the other. I doubt that. I think the coercive, centralized state solution to problems, especially potential ones, is like a scorched Earth approach. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 20:45:25 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2016 13:45:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Waste into printers? Message-ID: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/upcycling-e-waste-into-3d-printers-and-robots-at-togos-woelab What is the or a Singularity started in this? Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:04:13 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:04:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: If the GOP were actually shrinking the federal government, that would be a great thing IMO. They are not. I'd rather them have less power to tax -- not more. Yes, that would give less for your favorite programs here and it's not costless. But the federal government is by no means shrinking even in this area. dan What' wrong with just trying to collect the taxes that are already owed? I am certainly not familiar with all the various things the gov does, but I am sure I could find areas that I'd shrink. I could also find areas that need more money. Just shrinking blindly seems like a very bad idea. bill w Wouldn't another libertarian approach be much more reasonable here: stop stirring the pot for terrorism by getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures and playing global cop? dan I might have agreed to some extent with this, but not after 9-11. They brought the fight to our yard and by golly I'd chase them to the ends of the earth. Now Afghanistan, like Iraq, Viet Nam and maybe others - I could agree with you on those. bill w Who or what is not limited by money in this? dan CR has less money than the feds. Agreed? Bill w You appear to want to just accept some level of local terrorism rather than beef up security, because the incidence is low, or maybe because no level of security can stop it all. bill w On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 12:03 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > I have utterly no objection to private business doing these things, but > nobody is > > - mostly. CR does do a good job but they are very limited by money. I > support > > them. > > Who or what is not limited by money in this? > > There's the issue here, if you're not really concerned about giving the > federal government even more power and you're not worried about its overall > competency, of whether the threat you're worried about is that big a deal. > What's a good reasonable range for estimating this risk? > > > No, we aren't going to give regulators more money. Repubs to blame. > Hell, they > > won't even give the IRS enough money to hire more people to make more > money > > than it would take to pay them. Stupid stupid. > > If the GOP were actually shrinking the federal government, that would be a > great thing IMO. They are not. I'd rather them have less power to tax -- > not more. Yes, that would give less for your favorite programs here and > it's not costless. But the federal government is by no means shrinking even > in this area. > > >> If terrorists want to poison our food supply to get us, they could do > it domestically just as easily. > > > > All the more reason to give the FDA more money. > > I'm not so sure about that. The FDA already has a big budget. It already > does enough harm as it is, especially in attacking things like supplements > and in slowing innovation down to a crawl. As a libertarian, I'd expect you > not to ignore that actual danger posed by the FDA -- rather than worry > about the potential risk of terrorists poisoning the food supply.) > > > I am not a conspiracy theorist - by a very long shot. > > What does that term even mean? Do you believe no conspiracies ever happen? > The term is too loosely used, I think. There are valid conspiracies -- > viz., ones that it would be unreasonable not to believe in. And then there > are ones that it would be unreasonable -- given the evidence -- to believe > in. But a tout court disbelief in conspiracies is unwarranted. > > > But we are not being careful enough about our water supply, food supply, > drugs, > > power stations, and more. > > Wouldn't another libertarian approach be much more reasonable here: stop > stirring the pot for terrorism by getting involved in all kinds of foreign > adventures and playing global cop? This would remove much of the incentive > for terrorism in the first place. Sure, some terrorism will still occur, > but it will likely be very low -- just like some theft still occurs. > (Actually, the base rate for terrorism seems really, really low. Were this > not so, we would so far more of it -- just not more of in well guarded > places. This is unlike armed robbery, where when they started better > securing banks, it switched to liquor stores and gas stations. So it would > seem the base rate for terrorism is much lower than for armed robbery.) > > > Remember when someone, never caught, poisoned Tylenol, leading to the > kind > > of packaging we have nowadays? That could look like very small change. > I > > hope I am wrong. > > But your suggestion here is something much larger: a more extensive and > more well funded FDA and not a change in packaging. Now, you could argue > you can't have one without the other. I doubt that. I think the coercive, > centralized state solution to problems, especially potential ones, is like > a scorched Earth approach. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:28:13 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 09:28:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:04 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > If the GOP were actually shrinking the federal government, that would be a great thing IMO. They are not. I'd rather them have less power to tax -- not more. Yes, that would give less for your favorite programs here and it's not costless. But the federal government is by no means shrinking even in this area. dan > > What' wrong with just trying to collect the taxes that are already owed? I am certainly not familiar with all the various things the gov does, but I am sure I could find areas that I'd shrink. I could also find areas that need more money. Just shrinking blindly seems like a very bad idea. bill w Wait! You're a libertarian? Then the taxes aren't owed; they're extorted. No one owes them simply because the state says they are owed. > Wouldn't another libertarian approach be much more reasonable here: stop stirring the pot for terrorism by getting involved in all kinds of foreign adventures and playing global cop? dan > > I might have agreed to some extent with this, but not after 9-11. They brought the fight to our yard and by golly I'd chase them to the ends of the earth. Now Afghanistan, like Iraq, Viet Nam and maybe others - I could agree with you on those. bill w It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's interventions in the Middle East. You're sounding like one of those folks who believes that the US government was totally isolationist until September 12th of that year. > Who or what is not limited by money in this? dan > > CR has less money than the feds. Agreed? Bill w Doesn't really answer my question. And, for the record, the FDA gets orders of magnitude more money than CR now. I know you want them to have ever more -- on the theory that they do fine work and never stand in the way of health and safety. Consider why some might dissent from your view here. > You appear to want to just accept some level of local terrorism rather than beef up security, because the incidence is low, or maybe because no level of security can stop it all. My point was rather that there are more important fish to fry. We could all live isolation cells in a totalitarian state in the interest of stopping terrorism. Don't you agree that that would be a cure worse than the illness? Or is there no price to pay too high for allay these fears? Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:22:04 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:22:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hillary Message-ID: http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/5/12096364/hillary-clinton-email-probe-fbi-indict-private-server I agree with the FBI in this one instance. From anders at aleph.se Wed Jul 6 10:47:53 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 11:47:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: References: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> Message-ID: <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> On 2016-07-05 19:54, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Anders > wrote: > > Met the author, decided to buy when it came out. We had a very > nice conversation about stochastic gradient descent in everyday > life decisions. > > Have the book in my office now. > > > ?UhOh, that means that I won't be able to understand a word of it! Rats! Sorry, but I got annoyed by that (despite it being meant in jest, so take this mildly!). It both insults the author by suggesting the book would fail at explaining its topic, and involves a bit of coquetry of ignorance ("Haha, I cannot possibly understand that!"). At least on this list we should always add a "...yet." to any claim of ignorance or infeasibility. I don't know quantum field theory... yet. I am not immortal... yet. We do not live in space... yet. By the way, the book is very readable and thoughtful. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:30:33 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:30:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> References: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 5:47 AM, Anders wrote: > On 2016-07-05 19:54, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Anders wrote: > >> Met the author, decided to buy when it came out. We had a very nice >> conversation about stochastic gradient descent in everyday life decisions. >> >> Have the book in my office now. >> > > ?UhOh, that means that I won't be able to understand a word of it! Rats! > > > Sorry, but I got annoyed by that (despite it being meant in jest, so take > this mildly!). It both insults the author by suggesting the book would fail > at explaining its topic, and involves a bit of coquetry of ignorance > ("Haha, I cannot possibly understand that!"). > > At least on this list we should always add a "...yet." to any claim of > ignorance or infeasibility. I don't know quantum field theory... yet. I am > not immortal... yet. We do not live in space... yet. > > By the way, the book is very readable and thoughtful. > > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > ?I am very sorry that you took it that way. I was, as you certainly know, > making a jest of it. I am the least techie person on this list, as you > also know, and was making fun of myself! > > I did read the Amazon reviews which said that it was readable for > nontechnical people, or otherwise I would not have bought it. I will give > my review when I have read it. > ?I do not think that I have anything to apologize for, but again am sorry that you took it that way. bill wallace? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:39:25 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 15:39:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's interventions in the Middle East. You're sounding like one of those folks who believes that the US government was totally isolationist until September 12th of that year. dan I think that this is correct. They were saying 'just get out of our countries and leave us alone'. But I think we have no choice but to react, or they would do something worse, and no doubt are planning it. bill w Wait! You're a libertarian? Then the taxes aren't owed; they're extorted. No one owes them simply because the state says they are owed. dan I am a libertarian in part and a liberal in part (a conservative when it comes to money). I strongly doubt that all libertarians agree with what you have written above. We cannot allow people to just opt out of our society and not contribute to it. That's the deal in the USA. How we can have all the benefits of taxes without having taxes is a mystery to me. John Donne and bill w I certainly agree that there have to be limits to the actions taken in support of antiterrorism. (generally I don't respond to way out extreme examples which speak for themselves) bill w On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Jul 6, 2016, at 9:04 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > If the GOP were actually shrinking the federal government, that would be a > great thing IMO. They are not. I'd rather them have less power to tax -- > not more. Yes, that would give less for your favorite programs here and > it's not costless. But the federal government is by no means shrinking even > in this area. dan > > What' wrong with just trying to collect the taxes that are already owed? > I am certainly not familiar with all the various things the gov does, but I > am sure I could find areas that I'd shrink. I could also find areas that > need more money. Just shrinking blindly seems like a very bad idea. bill w > > > Wait! You're a libertarian? Then the taxes aren't owed; they're extorted. > No one owes them simply because the state says they are owed. > > Wouldn't another libertarian approach be much more reasonable here: stop > stirring the pot for terrorism by getting involved in all kinds of foreign > adventures and playing global cop? dan > > I might have agreed to some extent with this, but not after 9-11. They > brought the fight to our yard and by golly I'd chase them to the ends of > the earth. Now Afghanistan, like Iraq, Viet Nam and maybe others - I could > agree with you on those. bill w > > > It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's > interventions in the Middle East. You're sounding like one of those folks > who believes that the US government was totally isolationist until > September 12th of that year. > > Who or what is not limited by money in this? dan > > CR has less money than the feds. Agreed? Bill w > > > Doesn't really answer my question. > > And, for the record, the FDA gets orders of magnitude more money than CR > now. I know you want them to have ever more -- on the theory that they do > fine work and never stand in the way of health and safety. Consider why > some might dissent from your view here. > > You appear to want to just accept some level of local terrorism rather > than beef up security, because the incidence is low, or maybe because no > level of security can stop it all. > > > My point was rather that there are more important fish to fry. We could > all live isolation cells in a totalitarian state in the interest of > stopping terrorism. Don't you agree that that would be a cure worse than > the illness? Or is there no price to pay too high for allay these fears? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: > http://mybook.to/Gurlitt > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 21:01:22 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 14:01:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> References: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Jul 6, 2016 12:26 PM, "Anders" wrote: > Sorry, but I got annoyed by that (despite it being meant in jest, so take this mildly!). It both insults the author by suggesting the book would fail at explaining its topic, and involves a bit of coquetry of ignorance ("Haha, I cannot possibly understand that!"). Same. Any idiot can understand basic programming (and once that is understood, how to wire up a neural net), if it is explained well enough and the person takes the time and effort to understand. Any idiot can understand how to use CAD tools and a 3D printer, if it is explained well enough and the person takes the time and effort to understand. Any idiot can understand quantum field theory, if it is explained well enough and the person takes the time and effort to understand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 21:46:49 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 17:46:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at Dan TheBookMan wrote: ?> ? > It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's > interventions in the Middle East. ?In 2001 the USA had no soldiers in the Middle East ?and yet the 19 suicidal hijackers hated the USA more than they loved life. Why? Because they were Muslim dimwits who believed their particular variation of the invisible man in the sky theory was the only path to truth and justice, thus the fact that the USA was far richer and more powerful than they were could only be explained if they made a pact with the devil. Or to put it another way, the 911 attack happened because 19 people were infected by a religious mind virus that made them both stupid and evil. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 23:26:57 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at Dan TheBookMan wrote: > >> > >> It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's >> interventions in the Middle East. > > > In 2001 the USA had no soldiers in the Middle East and yet the 19 suicidal > hijackers hated the USA more than they loved life. Why? Because they were > Muslim dimwits who believed their particular variation of the invisible man > in the sky theory was the only path to truth and justice, thus the fact that > the USA was far richer and more powerful than they were could only be > explained if they made a pact with the devil. Or to put it another way, the > 911 attack happened because 19 people were infected by a religious mind > virus that made them both stupid and evil. You don't take it far enough back, nor go into the evolutionary origins. Why do people even *have* the capacity to be infected by a "religious mind virus? Do the projected environmental conditions affect the rate or depth of the "infection"? Keith > John K Clark > > > > > >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From anders at aleph.se Wed Jul 6 22:44:36 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 23:44:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: References: <4b3a4333-9bf7-c0b8-a229-d6193ce31443@aleph.se> <58e586a0-34aa-ecc8-af77-795cec4b674c@aleph.se> Message-ID: <9104dd64-3c85-9a23-da54-42ae697ae469@aleph.se> On 2016-07-06 21:30, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?I do not think that I have anything to apologize for, but again am > sorry that you took it that way. No need to apologize. I just needed to vent somewhat post-brexit. :-) Adrian: yes, any idiot can understand quantum field theory. I have just yet not found the explanation that makes sense to me, given my kind of idiocy ("Quantum Field Theory for the Gifted Amateur" by Stephen Blundell and Tom Lancaster has come closest so far.) Another very interesting book, although assuming some random pre-knowledge, is Scott Aaronson's "Quantum computing since Democritus". -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 00:35:13 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 19:35:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Why do people even *have* the capacity to be infected by a "religious mind virus? Do the projected environmental conditions affect the rate or depth of the "infection"? Keith Capacity to deal with or even understand the idea of abstractions comes with the big brain. The capacity may be a normal curve. Somewhere down below the average person this ability gradually vanishes. To my mind, this ability is a large part of IQ. Those down the list have so much trouble with abstractions that to understand, they must objectify the ideas. So God becomes an old man or woman or snake or cat .................Heaven is a real place with gold streets. Martyrs get virgins as rewards. And so on. Not dead but differently alive. Along with all of this comes the inability to deal with contradictions between religions, between religions and secular thought. You have to admit that theology is a very difficult subject for most people. So they just reject all but one and hold onto it with all mental claws. Everyone else is, therefore, totally wrong and have to be forced to 'see the light'. Some, of course, don't force. Muslims do. Christians of several centuries ago do. I don't know of another religion that does. All religions that I know of are highly authoritarian, and so the average Joe or Aziz is rewarded for just accepting what the bishops and imams say. Heresy can be fatal. I don't have to tell you how bloody-minded the Christian church has been historically. Real morons, those below 70 IQ, do very little what we call thinking. The 9-11 attackers were probably near average. A Freudian interpretation: being 'attacked' by heretical thoughts from one's unconscious requires putting up ego defenses. The conscious mind feels danger but is hardly aware of the source, though it gets hints of it. These may make the person angry with himself for having such an important conflict to deal with, and so projects it outward, not being able to admit the problem. Then the anger turns to aggression against those who are different - who, in fact, represent the heretical ideas coming from the unconscious. So here is where all the anger comes from and where it goes and who it attacks. I do not find this a totally complete and plausible interpretation, but it has its points. The person is attacking his own unacceptable unconscious ideas. He is not, then, the total believer he thinks he is. Quite the opposite. He has to do something very powerful to prove to himself that he is what he thinks he is. Martyrs are generally quite conflicted people. Viz St Augustine. I am not sure what is meant by the second question above. Do you mean, like growing up in a religion? ?bill w? On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 6:26 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > > >> > > >> It seems clear to me that the 02001 attacks were caused by the US's > >> interventions in the Middle East. > > > > > > In 2001 the USA had no soldiers in the Middle East and yet the 19 > suicidal > > hijackers hated the USA more than they loved life. Why? Because they were > > Muslim dimwits who believed their particular variation of the invisible > man > > in the sky theory was the only path to truth and justice, thus the fact > that > > the USA was far richer and more powerful than they were could only be > > explained if they made a pact with the devil. Or to put it another way, > the > > 911 attack happened because 19 people were infected by a religious mind > > virus that made them both stupid and evil. > > You don't take it far enough back, nor go into the evolutionary origins. > > Why do people even *have* the capacity to be infected by a "religious > mind virus? > > Do the projected environmental conditions affect the rate or depth of > the "infection"? > > Keith > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 00:35:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2016 20:35:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> <23257B9F-07C1-4703-B8E6-255FD7E98DD7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 Keith Henson wrote: ?> ? > You don't take it far enough back If you go back far enough then ?911 was caused by the Big Bang, but Islamic imbecility was the proximate cause ?> ? > nor go into the evolutionary origins. > ?Usually there is a evolutionary advantage for children to believe what adults tell them (don't eat that fruit, it's poison), but not when they tell the kids that if they pilot an airliner into a skyscraper they will get 77 virgins when they die. ? ?> ? > Why do people even *have* the capacity to be infected by a "religious > mind virus? > ?The same reason cells have ?the capacity to be infected by biological viruses, malicious code is a occupational hazard for anything that has the ability to reproduce something, in one case its genes in the other its ideas, and in the case of Islam very bad ideas. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:01:52 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 08:01:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nobel laureates tell Greenpeace to stop, opposing GMOs In-Reply-To: References: <5a42aa32-67dc-7b55-fbc2-b77268f82c0a@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:04 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > What' wrong with just trying to collect the taxes that are already owed? > ### Many government supporters have a fuzzy nice feeling when they think about it, like thinking about their mom or something. Considerations of feedback loops, power imbalances, calculations of efficiencies and other wonk-stuff just do not enter the equation. It's hard to argue against mom. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mindey at mindey.com Thu Jul 7 17:40:31 2016 From: mindey at mindey.com (Mindey I.) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2016 17:40:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? Message-ID: Hello Extropians, most of you probably would agree that death is among the most important problems to solve. However, humans had identified other problems. I and a few friends of mine had shared some problems at -- https://infty.xyz -- the project we call The Infinity Project, to create the conditions to help humanity define and pursue its goals. Which among them do you think are important, which are not? What problems do you think are the most important to solve for humanity, how would you define them? -- Mindey I. https://mindey.com Scientific Computing & Web Applications -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ilia.stambler at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 17:52:38 2016 From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 20:52:38 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 Message-ID: Dear friends, Following the tradition of 2013, 2014 and 2015, as usual 3 months before October 1, there starts the organization of events and publications toward the ?Longevity Day? (based on the UN International Day of Older Persons - October 1) in support of biomedical aging and longevity research. http://www.longevityforall.org/longevity-day-and-longevity-month-october-2016/ This has been a worldwide international campaign successfully adopted by many longevity activists groups. Last year, events, meetings, publications and promotions were organized in the framework of this campaign in over 40 countries. Some promotions reached hundreds of thousands of viewers. This campaign has also received factual endorsement and publicity from several internationally and nationally recognized scientific and advocacy associations. http://www.longevityforall.org/international-longevity-day-october-1-2015/ Hopefully, this year, the campaign will be no less enriching, unifying and impactful. Though this year, it was suggested, while keeping the "longevity day" concept as would be desirable to particular groups and activists, rather to emphasize and organize the longevity promotion events in October in a new framework ? as ?The Longevity Month? ? as usually the ?longevity day? events spread through the entire month of October. Various ?commemorative months? to support particular advocacy issues is a well established and effective practice, and a dedicated ?month? can give people more flexibility and space to organize events and publications. This time it would even be endeavored to gain some official state-level recognition of this commemorative month campaign. Yet it would depend on the strength of every individual event and publication of this campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commemorative_months Several events are already included as a part of the "Longevity Day/Month" celebrations. One of them is the conference of the International Society on Aging and Disease (ISOAD) that will take place in Stanford, on September 30 - October 2 http://www.longevityforall.org/international-conference-on-aging-and-disease-stanford-sept-30-oct-2-2016/ If you would like to plan a longevity research promoting meeting or event in your country, or produce a longevity advocacy publication toward October, please let know ? so the participants of this campaign can encourage each other and reinforce each other?s efforts. Looking forward to October full with advancement of longevity science! Ilia Stambler, PhD Coordinator ? Longevity for All www.longevityforall.org longevityforallinfo at gmail.com Please see updates of this campaign here: http://www.longevityforall.org/longevity-day-and-longevity-month-october-2016/ https://www.facebook.com/events/1765113880368898/ -- Ilia Stambler, PhD Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD http://isoad.org Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / International Longevity Alliance (Israel) - ILA *http://www.longevityisrael.org/ * Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth Century* http://longevityhistory.com Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578 Rishon Lezion. Israel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 15:46:34 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 16:46:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 July 2016 at 18:40, Mindey I. wrote: > I and a few friends of mine had shared some problems at -- https://infty.xyz > -- the project we call The Infinity Project, to create the conditions to > help humanity define and pursue its goals. Which among them do you think are > important, which are not? > Forcepoint thinks your web site is suspicious. Quote: Assessment Overview Real-time analysis of the content downloaded from URL indicates that the website is compromised to serve malicious content to visitors. We recommend that you do not visit this URL in a web browser until the malicious content has been removed. ----------------------- If this is a false positive, it means that you have some unclear or obfuscated code on the web page that could be used to hide malicious software. Cleaning up the code should fix the problem. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:39:12 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 13:39:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Mindey I. wrote: ?> ? > What problems do you think are the most important to solve for humanity > ?isn't it obvious? Death. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 18:46:45 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 14:46:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > most of you probably would agree that death is among the most important problems to solve. Miss that part, John? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:31:15 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 15:31:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would not mention this, but there were three articles about it in the June 17 issue of Science. How many of you are taking nicotinamide riboside? I have been taking it for close to a year. If there are any out there taking it, I would very much like to find out what side effects it had on you and share what I know. Keith Henson On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Ilia Stambler wrote: > Dear friends, > > > > Following the tradition of 2013, 2014 and 2015, as usual 3 months before > October 1, there starts the organization of events and publications toward > the ?Longevity Day? (based on the UN International Day of Older Persons - > October 1) in support of biomedical aging and longevity research. > > http://www.longevityforall.org/longevity-day-and-longevity-month-october-2016/ > > > > This has been a worldwide international campaign successfully adopted by > many longevity activists groups. Last year, events, meetings, publications > and promotions were organized in the framework of this campaign in over 40 > countries. Some promotions reached hundreds of thousands of viewers. This > campaign has also received factual endorsement and publicity from several > internationally and nationally recognized scientific and advocacy > associations. > > http://www.longevityforall.org/international-longevity-day-october-1-2015/ > > > > Hopefully, this year, the campaign will be no less enriching, unifying and > impactful. Though this year, it was suggested, while keeping the "longevity > day" concept as would be desirable to particular groups and activists, > rather to emphasize and organize the longevity promotion events in October > in a new framework ? as ?The Longevity Month? ? as usually the ?longevity > day? events spread through the entire month of October. Various > ?commemorative months? to support particular advocacy issues is a well > established and effective practice, and a dedicated ?month? can give people > more flexibility and space to organize events and publications. This time it > would even be endeavored to gain some official state-level recognition of > this commemorative month campaign. Yet it would depend on the strength of > every individual event and publication of this campaign. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commemorative_months > > > > Several events are already included as a part of the "Longevity Day/Month" > celebrations. One of them is the conference of the International Society on > Aging and Disease (ISOAD) that will take place in Stanford, on September 30 > - October 2 > http://www.longevityforall.org/international-conference-on-aging-and-disease-stanford-sept-30-oct-2-2016/ > > > > If you would like to plan a longevity research promoting meeting or event in > your country, or produce a longevity advocacy publication toward October, > please let know ? so the participants of this campaign can encourage each > other and reinforce each other?s efforts. Looking forward to October full > with advancement of longevity science! > > > > Ilia Stambler, PhD > > > Coordinator ? Longevity for All > > > > www.longevityforall.org > > > > longevityforallinfo at gmail.com > > > > Please see updates of this campaign here: > http://www.longevityforall.org/longevity-day-and-longevity-month-october-2016/ > > https://www.facebook.com/events/1765113880368898/ > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ilia Stambler, PhD > > > Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD > http://isoad.org > > Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / International Longevity Alliance > (Israel) - ILA http://www.longevityisrael.org/ > > Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org > > Author. Longevity History. A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth > Century http://longevityhistory.com > > > > Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com > > Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578 > > Rishon Lezion. Israel > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From msd001 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 03:14:16 2016 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2016 23:14:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 8, 2016 8:02 PM, "Keith Henson" wrote: > How many of you are taking nicotinamide riboside? I have been taking > it for close to a year. If there are any out there taking it, I would > very much like to find out what side effects it had on you and share > what I know. I took 30 days worth and didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I want exactly sure what I should be paying attention to so to say that it did not have a profound impact is not saying it had none. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 08:58:36 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 09:58:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> On 2016-07-09 04:14, Mike Dougherty wrote: > > I took 30 days worth and didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I want > exactly sure what I should be paying attention to so to say that it > did not have a profound impact is not saying it had none. > I think this is a fundamental problem with self-experimentation in many domains - mainly anti-ageing, but also cognitive enhancement. How do you tell if it is working? I have friends who do some pretty sophisticated things, yet they have no way of telling if they are actually improving. In one case a documented dose-dependent side effect is helping my friend check that the dose is in the published therapeutic range, but that is it. Now, this is not intended as science, but rather for life improvement. But it seems to me that one needs to check that it actually does improve things in a measurable way for the cost/benefit ratio to be guessable. This is extra tricky for long-term effects, where you cannot even test with a placebo in reasonable time. Maybe the solution would be to try to do more online pooling? -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 10:06:18 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 11:06:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> References: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 9 July 2016 at 09:58, Anders Sandberg wrote: > I think this is a fundamental problem with self-experimentation in many > domains - mainly anti-ageing, but also cognitive enhancement. How do you > tell if it is working? > Now, this is not intended as science, but rather for life improvement. But > it seems to me that one needs to check that it actually does improve things > in a measurable way for the cost/benefit ratio to be guessable. This is > extra tricky for long-term effects, where you cannot even test with a > placebo in reasonable time. Maybe the solution would be to try to do more > online pooling? > It is even worse if someone is spending a lot of money and time on new supplements. Once you are heavily invested in a system, emotional humans find it almost impossible to accept that it is a waste of time and money. e.g. xxxology. Objective tests are required and for life extension in humans the only real test is living longer. And even that may be an individual exceptional case. BillK From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 13:36:50 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:36:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Thinking about what is most important is actually one of the more important parts of my job :-) However, there is a difference between something that is intrinsically valuable and important to strive for (say finding and doing The Meaning of Life) and what you should be prioritizing *right now* (like getting out of the way of a speeding car, or reducing existential risk). Nick Bostrom's "little theory of problems" puts it nicely: * There are many problems in the world. Not all of them ought to be solved. * Important problems are those for which the value of a solution is either large and positive or large and negative. * Not all important problems ought to be solved. * We can distinguish positive-value problems (some of which are high-value, others low-value) from negative-value problems. * Not all important positive-value problems ought to be addressed. * Elastic problems are those whose solution can be found significantly sooner with one extra unit of effort. * We ought to address high-value high-elasticity problems. * ?Discoveries? are acts that move the arrival of some information from a later point in time to an earlier point in time. * The value of a discovery does not equal the value of the solution discovered. The value of a discovery equals the value of having the solution moved from the later time at it would otherwise have arrived to the time of the discovery. ? Nick Bostrom So, of the problems at the Infinity Project, which ones are high-value high-elasticity problems where we benefit from getting the result early? Below, I went through a few pages of problems (so this is not complete) and gave a quick-and-dirty evaluation on this based on my views. If we then regard "low=1", "moderate=2" and "high=3" and multiply them together we can get a rough prioritization. So my top choices would be superintelligence, pandemics, electronics risk and life extension, followed by world hunger, academic papers, getting to LEO and safe cars. Evaluations No-suffering economic system: moderate value, low elasticity, low benefit early arrival: 2 Safe cars: moderate+ value, high elasticity, moderate early arrival: 12 Bacterial computer: low, moderate, low: 2 Transparency: moderate, low, low: 2 Risk adjustment: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 Life extension: high, moderate, low/high (depending on whether you count your utility): 12,18 Mind recovery: high, low, low: 3 World hunger: high, moderate, moderate: 12 Conference collection: low -, high, moderate: 6 Content reusability: low, moderate, low: 2 Cryoprotectant: low, moderate, moderate: 4 Incentivizing breakthroughs: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 Realising potential: moderate, low, low: 2 Track personal energy: low, high, low: 3 Schizophrenia: moderate, low, low: 2 Realizing ideas: low, low, low: 1 Understanding: low, low, low: 1 Brain preservation: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 Academic papers: moderate, high, moderate: 12 Wild animal suffering: high, low, moderate: 6 Sharing code: low, high, low: 3 Filmmaking: low, low, low: 1 Synchronization: low, high, low: 3 GRBs: low, low, low: 1 (GRBs are very rare) Climate change: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 LEO: high, moderate, moderate: 12 Electronics risk: moderate, high, high: 18 Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 Pandemic: high, moderate, high: 18 Waits: low, moderate, low: 2 Brain health: low, high, low: 3 Book writing: low, moderate, low: 2 -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 13:38:49 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:38:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> Message-ID: I think this is a fundamental problem with self-experimentation in many domains - mainly anti-ageing, but also cognitive enhancement. How do you tell if it is working? anders I am giving niagen a try, and so far, no significant effects. If they occur I'll post it. The trouble is, the way I feel day to day is so variable that small changes either way may not be noticed. I take a lot of supplements and cannot tell you which if any are doing any good, with the exception of the three I take for peripheral neuropathy. But they are not expensive at all in my budget, so I will continue even knowing that some are just wasted. Maybe the biggest problem is this: there is just no money or fame to be gained from doing research on over the counter supplements. Supplement makers don't have the big bucks to do it. bill w On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 5:06 AM, BillK wrote: > On 9 July 2016 at 09:58, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > I think this is a fundamental problem with self-experimentation in many > > domains - mainly anti-ageing, but also cognitive enhancement. How do you > > tell if it is working? > > > Now, this is not intended as science, but rather for life improvement. > But > > it seems to me that one needs to check that it actually does improve > things > > in a measurable way for the cost/benefit ratio to be guessable. This is > > extra tricky for long-term effects, where you cannot even test with a > > placebo in reasonable time. Maybe the solution would be to try to do more > > online pooling? > > > > > It is even worse if someone is spending a lot of money and time on new > supplements. Once you are heavily invested in a system, emotional > humans find it almost impossible to accept that it is a waste of time > and money. > e.g. xxxology. > > Objective tests are required and for life extension in humans the only > real test is living longer. And even that may be an individual > exceptional case. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 13:45:31 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:45:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Message-ID: see below Anders' post for my post On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 8:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Thinking about what is most important is actually one of the more > important parts of my job :-) However, there is a difference between > something that is intrinsically valuable and important to strive for (say > finding and doing The Meaning of Life) and what you should be prioritizing > *right now* (like getting out of the way of a speeding car, or reducing > existential risk). > > Nick Bostrom's "little theory of problems" puts it nicely: > > - There are many problems in the world. Not all of them ought to be > solved. > - Important problems are those for which the value of a solution is > either large and positive or large and negative. > - Not all important problems ought to be solved. > - We can distinguish positive-value problems (some of which are > high-value, others low-value) from negative-value problems. > - Not all important positive-value problems ought to be addressed. > - Elastic problems are those whose solution can be found significantly > sooner with one extra unit of effort. > - We ought to address high-value high-elasticity problems. > - ?Discoveries? are acts that move the arrival of some information > from a later point in time to an earlier point in time. > - The value of a discovery does not equal the value of the solution > discovered. The value of a discovery equals the value of having the > solution moved from the later time at it would otherwise have arrived to > the time of the discovery. > > ? Nick Bostrom > > So, of the problems at the Infinity Project, which ones are high-value > high-elasticity problems where we benefit from getting the result early? > > Below, I went through a few pages of problems (so this is not complete) > and gave a quick-and-dirty evaluation on this based on my views. If we then > regard "low=1", "moderate=2" and "high=3" and multiply them together we can > get a rough prioritization. So my top choices would be superintelligence, > pandemics, electronics risk and life extension, followed by world hunger, > academic papers, getting to LEO and safe cars. > > Evaluations > > No-suffering economic system: moderate value, low elasticity, low benefit > early arrival: 2 > > Safe cars: moderate+ value, high elasticity, moderate early arrival: 12 > > Bacterial computer: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Transparency: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Risk adjustment: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Life extension: high, moderate, low/high (depending on whether you count > your utility): 12,18 > > Mind recovery: high, low, low: 3 > > World hunger: high, moderate, moderate: 12 > > Conference collection: low -, high, moderate: 6 > > Content reusability: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Cryoprotectant: low, moderate, moderate: 4 > > Incentivizing breakthroughs: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Realising potential: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Track personal energy: low, high, low: 3 > > Schizophrenia: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Realizing ideas: low, low, low: 1 > > Understanding: low, low, low: 1 > > Brain preservation: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Academic papers: moderate, high, moderate: 12 > > Wild animal suffering: high, low, moderate: 6 > > Sharing code: low, high, low: 3 > > Filmmaking: low, low, low: 1 > > Synchronization: low, high, low: 3 > > GRBs: low, low, low: 1 (GRBs are very rare) > > Climate change: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > LEO: high, moderate, moderate: 12 > > Electronics risk: moderate, high, high: 18 > > Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Pandemic: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Waits: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Brain health: low, high, low: 3 > > Book writing: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > ?Yes, there is a difference between a puzzle and a problem, but where are the guidelines here? Why not solve all important problems? ??? If they weren't interfering with the human race they would not be called important. Some explication is needed here. I would add two to this list: pollution, and bacteria super-resistant to? ?antibiotics?. Bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 14:08:11 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 15:08:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Message-ID: <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> On 2016-07-09 14:45, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?Yes, there is a difference between a puzzle and a problem, but where > are the guidelines here? Why not solve all important problems? ??? > If they weren't interfering with the human race they would not be > called important. Some explication is needed here. Gender equality, world hunger, and avoiding extinction-level nuclear war are all important. But if you fail at solving the last one having found solutions to the other two is pretty moot. Xrisks are special because they cut off all the good of the future, so stopping them early has a great deal of value. Some problems have multiplicative effects on other things: deworming in subsaharan Africa does not just making kids healthier, but also improves school results and intelligence, which in turn boosts the economy. Fixing ageing fixes a host of other chronic diseases plus boosts human capital. Meta-problems are often under-researched, elastic and useful to solve early. I sketch out some ways to select problems right in this little essay, with some medicine-related examples in the final section: http://www.aleph.se/presentations/What%20questions.pdf -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 15:26:20 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 08:26:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Message-ID: Here is another list, http://www.engineeringchallenges.org/challenges.aspx These are unranked according to someone I have corresponded with at the National Academe of Engineering. Advance Personalized Learning A growing appreciation of individual preferences and aptitudes has led toward more ?personalized learning,? in which instruction is tailored to a student?s individual needs. Given the diversity of individual preferences, and the complexity of each human brain, developing teaching methods that optimize learning will require engineering solutions of the future. Make Solar Energy Economical Currently, solar energy provides less than 1 percent of the world's total energy, but it has the potential to provide much, much more. Enhance Virtual Reality Within many specialized fields, from psychiatry to education, virtual reality is becoming a powerful new tool for training practitioners and treating patients, in addition to its growing use in various forms of entertainment. Reverse-Engineer the Brain A lot of research has been focused on creating thinking machines?computers capable of emulating human intelligence? however, reverse-engineering the brain could have multiple impacts that go far beyond artificial intelligence and will promise great advances in health care, manufacturing, and communication. Engineer Better Medicines Engineering can enable the development of new systems to use genetic information, sense small changes in the body, assess new drugs, and deliver vaccines to provide health care directly tailored to each person. Advance Health Informatics As computers have become available for all aspects of human endeavors, there is now a consensus that a systematic approach to health informatics - the acquisition, management, and use of information in health - can greatly enhance the quality and efficiency of medical care and the response to widespread public health emergencies. Restore and Improve Urban Infrastructure Infrastructure is the combination of fundamental systems that support a community, region, or country. Society faces the formidable challenge of modernizing the fundamental structures that will support our civilization in centuries ahead. Secure Cyberspace Computer systems are involved in the management of almost all areas of our lives; from electronic communications, and data systems, to controlling traffic lights to routing airplanes. It is clear that engineering needs to develop innovations for addressing a long list of cybersecurity priorities Provide Access to Clean Water The world's water supplies are facing new threats; affordable, advanced technologies could make a difference for millions of people around the world. Provide Energy from Fusion Human-engineered fusion has been demonstrated on a small scale. The challenge is to scale up the process to commercial proportions, in an efficient, economical, and environmentally benign way. Prevent Nuclear Terror The need for technologies to prevent and respond to a nuclear attack is growing. Manage the Nitrogen Cycle Engineers can help restore balance to the nitrogen cycle with better fertilization technologies and by capturing and recycling waste. Develop Carbon Sequestration Methods Engineers are working on ways to capture and store excess carbon dioxide to prevent global warming. Engineer the Tools of Scientific Discovery In the century ahead, engineers will continue to be partners with scientists in the great quest for understanding many unanswered questions of natur On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 6:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Thinking about what is most important is actually one of the more important > parts of my job :-) However, there is a difference between something that is > intrinsically valuable and important to strive for (say finding and doing > The Meaning of Life) and what you should be prioritizing *right now* (like > getting out of the way of a speeding car, or reducing existential risk). > > Nick Bostrom's "little theory of problems" puts it nicely: > > There are many problems in the world. Not all of them ought to be solved. > Important problems are those for which the value of a solution is either > large and positive or large and negative. > Not all important problems ought to be solved. > We can distinguish positive-value problems (some of which are high-value, > others low-value) from negative-value problems. > Not all important positive-value problems ought to be addressed. > Elastic problems are those whose solution can be found significantly sooner > with one extra unit of effort. > We ought to address high-value high-elasticity problems. > ?Discoveries? are acts that move the arrival of some information from a > later point in time to an earlier point in time. > The value of a discovery does not equal the value of the solution > discovered. The value of a discovery equals the value of having the solution > moved from the later time at it would otherwise have arrived to the time of > the discovery. > > ? Nick Bostrom > > So, of the problems at the Infinity Project, which ones are high-value > high-elasticity problems where we benefit from getting the result early? > > Below, I went through a few pages of problems (so this is not complete) and > gave a quick-and-dirty evaluation on this based on my views. If we then > regard "low=1", "moderate=2" and "high=3" and multiply them together we can > get a rough prioritization. So my top choices would be superintelligence, > pandemics, electronics risk and life extension, followed by world hunger, > academic papers, getting to LEO and safe cars. > > Evaluations > > No-suffering economic system: moderate value, low elasticity, low benefit > early arrival: 2 > > Safe cars: moderate+ value, high elasticity, moderate early arrival: 12 > > Bacterial computer: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Transparency: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Risk adjustment: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Life extension: high, moderate, low/high (depending on whether you count > your utility): 12,18 > > Mind recovery: high, low, low: 3 > > World hunger: high, moderate, moderate: 12 > > Conference collection: low -, high, moderate: 6 > > Content reusability: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Cryoprotectant: low, moderate, moderate: 4 > > Incentivizing breakthroughs: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Realising potential: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Track personal energy: low, high, low: 3 > > Schizophrenia: moderate, low, low: 2 > > Realizing ideas: low, low, low: 1 > > Understanding: low, low, low: 1 > > Brain preservation: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > Academic papers: moderate, high, moderate: 12 > > Wild animal suffering: high, low, moderate: 6 > > Sharing code: low, high, low: 3 > > Filmmaking: low, low, low: 1 > > Synchronization: low, high, low: 3 > > GRBs: low, low, low: 1 (GRBs are very rare) > > Climate change: moderate, moderate, moderate: 8 > > LEO: high, moderate, moderate: 12 > > Electronics risk: moderate, high, high: 18 > > Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Pandemic: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Waits: low, moderate, low: 2 > > Brain health: low, high, low: 3 > > Book writing: low, moderate, low: 2 > > > > > > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 16:25:09 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 11:25:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: Gender equality, world hunger, and avoiding extinction-level nuclear war are all important. But if you fail at solving the last one having found solutions to the other two is pretty moot. anders You are not suggesting that we stop working on the first two, eh? Perhaps you are addressing the problem of limited resources and where to put your efforts first. Very unfortunately, that is left in the hands of politicians all too often, who are influenced by Big Banks, Big Industry, and so on. Plutocracy. . I will read your link before answering further. I sketch out some ways to select problems right in this little essay, with some medicine-related examples in the final section: http://www.aleph.se/presentations/What%20questions.pdf anders A good article. However, it does not explain the apparent paradox of labeling a problem 'important' and then saying it does not deserve to be solved. (Now you will say that I am arguing semantics again, and I will agree with that. Wrong words are confusing.) Once I woke up in a car, after overindulging in beer, and found that we were going very fast down a lonely road. So I asked and he said that he was lost, and that his theory was to go as fast as he can so that he will find out sooner if he is going the wrong way. Fits right in to your article. I did solve the problem by looking out the windows, seeing the Big Dipper in the back window, and telling the driver that we were going South - which was wrong. I, for one, would like to hear what you have to say about the Brexit, and why it disturbs you. bill w On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2016-07-09 14:45, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?Yes, there is a difference between a puzzle and a problem, but where are > the guidelines here? Why not solve all important problems? ??? If they > weren't interfering with the human race they would not be called > important. Some explication is needed here. > > > Gender equality, world hunger, and avoiding extinction-level nuclear war > are all important. But if you fail at solving the last one having found > solutions to the other two is pretty moot. > > Xrisks are special because they cut off all the good of the future, so > stopping them early has a great deal of value. Some problems have > multiplicative effects on other things: deworming in subsaharan Africa does > not just making kids healthier, but also improves school results and > intelligence, which in turn boosts the economy. Fixing ageing fixes a host > of other chronic diseases plus boosts human capital. Meta-problems are > often under-researched, elastic and useful to solve early. > > I sketch out some ways to select problems right in this little essay, with > some medicine-related examples in the final section: > http://www.aleph.se/presentations/What%20questions.pdf > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 17:48:39 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 10:48:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> References: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 1:58 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2016-07-09 04:14, Mike Dougherty wrote: >> >> I took 30 days worth and didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I want >> exactly sure what I should be paying attention to so to say that it did not >> have a profound impact is not saying it had none. > > I think this is a fundamental problem with self-experimentation in many > domains - mainly anti-ageing, but also cognitive enhancement. How do you > tell if it is working? In my case, you have decades of my postings and I can date when I started taking nicotinamide ribosid by my first order. I wonder if anyone out there has a way to measure cognitive performance from net postings? > I have friends who do some pretty sophisticated things, yet they have no way > of telling if they are actually improving. In one case a documented > dose-dependent side effect is helping my friend check that the dose is in > the published therapeutic range, but that is it. > > Now, this is not intended as science, but rather for life improvement. But > it seems to me that one needs to check that it actually does improve things > in a measurable way for the cost/benefit ratio to be guessable. This is > extra tricky for long-term effects, where you cannot even test with a > placebo in reasonable time. Maybe the solution would be to try to do more > online pooling? That's why I asked. Keith > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 11:33:53 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 12:33:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> Message-ID: <71b72634-097c-90de-d824-f8b077017f54@aleph.se> On 2016-07-09 11:06, BillK wrote: > Objective tests are required and for life extension in humans the > onlyreal test is living longer. And even that may be an individual > exceptional case. Liz Parrish is AFAIK doing well; at least measurable improvements in muscle mass and longer telomeres. But in her case much of the concern might be more about the safety of her gene therapy than the efficacy. Individual variability is an interesting issue. We know for cognitive enhancement that variability is big because you need to fit the enhancement with the cognitive task and cognitive style to get the biggest effect (largely due to individual pharmacological responses and where the cognitive bottlenecks are). I am more uncertain about the variability in ageing, but my impression is that there are both standard problems that presumably can be fixed in roughly the same way and some idiosyncratic ageing effects that may require individualized therapy; that will be tricky to research and optimize. On Monday I will become 2*2*11, so I have started paying attention more to actionable, well-supported and higher effect-sized interventions. But I think we may need to come up with better ways of investigating and testing them. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 18:41:31 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 11:41:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike, as I understand it, the effects of nicotinamide riboside are more variable on younger people. Why isn't obvious, but it could be that the level of NAD+ is one of the things when get out of whack as we get older. I am almost 74. At that age, there are a lot of annoying things that start to happen to you. For me, some of them seem to have backed off, though if they are due to the nicotinamide riboside, it took several months for the effects to kick in. My life, incidentally, has had previous cases of side effects. I originally took alagebrium at the same time a big trial was going on. It didn't help either in the trial or me with the main reason I took it, but it did have a remarkable effect on the build up of plaque on my teeth. So I continued to use it, in rather small amounts as a tooth cleaner. The side effect, which I realized after perhaps a year, was to reverse the progressive angina that had been building up over the previous 10 years. I am fairly sure it was due to the alagebrium because I ran out and after a few months the angina started to come back. It went away when I got some more and went back to using it. Keith On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > On Jul 8, 2016 8:02 PM, "Keith Henson" wrote: > >> How many of you are taking nicotinamide riboside? I have been taking >> it for close to a year. If there are any out there taking it, I would >> very much like to find out what side effects it had on you and share >> what I know. > > I took 30 days worth and didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I want exactly > sure what I should be paying attention to so to say that it did not have a > profound impact is not saying it had none. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:10:30 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 14:10:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?In my case, you have decades of my postings and I can date when I started taking nicotinamide ribosid by my first order. I wonder if anyone out there has a way to measure cognitive performance from net postings? My variability from day to day isn't much, but within days it's huge. I am extremely slow to awaken and am not truly awake for a couple of hours?. I try to get started by doing crosswords with coffee. Later in the day I pick up the same puzzle and fill it in rapidly in those places where I got stuck earlier. Since you have decades of postings, I assume that the other people who have known you that long could easily tell if you started to get senile. Of course you know about using brain teasers and puzzles as data on decline. Skinner, famous for his pigeons, used the 'subject as his own control' method, which is just what you described with your angina example: present A and measure; withdraw A and measure; present A again and measure, and so on. Skinner would do this several times before he was convinced A made a difference. The only problem with this is that we typically take several supplements, and it's just impossible to tell if any interact with others. We assume that drugs act alone and that may be an invalid assumption. I do know that my Synthroid is supposed to be taken with no other drugs, and of course you know about grapefruit juice and its ability to exacerbate the effects of certain drugs. bill w On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > Mike, as I understand it, the effects of nicotinamide riboside are > more variable on younger people. Why isn't obvious, but it could be > that the level of NAD+ is one of the things when get out of whack as > we get older. > > I am almost 74. At that age, there are a lot of annoying things that > start to happen to you. For me, some of them seem to have backed off, > though if they are due to the nicotinamide riboside, it took several > months for the effects to kick in. > > My life, incidentally, has had previous cases of side effects. I > originally took alagebrium at the same time a big trial was going on. > It didn't help either in the trial or me with the main reason I took > it, but it did have a remarkable effect on the build up of plaque on > my teeth. So I continued to use it, in rather small amounts as a > tooth cleaner. > > The side effect, which I realized after perhaps a year, was to reverse > the progressive angina that had been building up over the previous 10 > years. I am fairly sure it was due to the alagebrium because I ran > out and after a few months the angina started to come back. It went > away when I got some more and went back to using it. > > Keith > > On Fri, Jul 8, 2016 at 8:14 PM, Mike Dougherty wrote: > > On Jul 8, 2016 8:02 PM, "Keith Henson" wrote: > > > >> How many of you are taking nicotinamide riboside? I have been taking > >> it for close to a year. If there are any out there taking it, I would > >> very much like to find out what side effects it had on you and share > >> what I know. > > > > I took 30 days worth and didn't notice anything. Admittedly, I want > exactly > > sure what I should be paying attention to so to say that it did not have > a > > profound impact is not saying it had none. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 19:54:03 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 20:54:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Longevity Day and Longevity Month - October 2016 In-Reply-To: References: <223530e1-203e-4a4f-3abc-2c9f1fa8ea83@aleph.se> Message-ID: <15754649-8382-0182-612f-010e52d2f198@aleph.se> On 2016-07-09 18:48, Keith Henson wrote: > In my case, you have decades of my postings and I can date when I > started taking nicotinamide ribosid by my first order. I wonder if > anyone out there has a way to measure cognitive performance from net > postings? Interesting idea. Off the cuff, I found these papers that look at AD detection from text: http://vlado.cs.dal.ca/papers/icma05.pdf http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~kfraser/Fraser15-JAD.pdf http://scholarworks.rit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=9737&context=theses http://www.cs.toronto.edu/pub/gh/Google-talk.pdf The last one is looking at language used by novelists over time. Things are clearly not simple, but there are definitely patterns to look for. The papers also aim at detecting AD *between* people, but clearly one could make a yearly measure and see how it changes, and if there is a detectable change point at the intervention. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 20:02:34 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 21:02:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 2016-07-09 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > A good article. However, it does not explain the apparent paradox of > labeling a problem 'important' and then saying it does not deserve to > be solved. No, I am arguing that important problems may still be deferred to later. Fixing the sun's expansion into a red giant is important, but it would be stupid to reallocate resources used for pandemic readiness today into solving it. > Once I woke up in a car, after overindulging in beer, and found that > we were going very fast down a lonely road. So I asked and he said > that he was lost, and that his theory was to go as fast as he can so > that he will find out sooner if he is going the wrong way. Fits right > in to your article. I did solve the problem by looking out the > windows, seeing the Big Dipper in the back window, and telling the > driver that we were going South - which was wrong. Figuring out where one should be going before spending effort going forward is rational. In a car it might not be too costly to drive a few miles wrong and maybe time is precious, but given the nonzero danger of driving fast in unknown areas at night your friend probably made a bad cost/benefit calculation. The more costly mistakes or wasted effort (typically because of opportunity costs) are, the more effort it is rational to put into planning where one should go. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 21:56:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 16:56:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: No, I am arguing that important problems may still be deferred to later. Fixing the sun's expansion into a red giant is important, but it would be stupid to reallocate resources used for pandemic readiness today into solving it. anders Ok, so Nick is rating as important problems that will likely occur in about 4 billion years. That's some planning ahead, I'd say. Another time, same driver, again too much beer for me, I happened to wake up and see a restaurant passing by that we'd passed twice before - about 3 a.m. Oh yes, if probability means anything at all, I should have died in a car wreck numerous times, with that guy or myself driving. Solution: got caught for driving under influence, spent the night on the jail floor, and quit drinking and driving. In fact, I quit drinking at all - decades after I should have. For me it was a positive feedback loop: each drink dulls the inhibition so that another drink seems a good idea - like priming the pump and disabling the shutoff valve. As far as dodging death, I am an outlier, even if you *don't* count two cancers! "Oh what a lucky man he was." Elton John bill w On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Anders wrote: > On 2016-07-09 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > A good article. However, it does not explain the apparent paradox of > labeling a problem 'important' and then saying it does not deserve to be > solved. > > > No, I am arguing that important problems may still be deferred to later. > Fixing the sun's expansion into a red giant is important, but it would be > stupid to reallocate resources used for pandemic readiness today into > solving it. > > Once I woke up in a car, after overindulging in beer, and found that we > were going very fast down a lonely road. So I asked and he said that he > was lost, and that his theory was to go as fast as he can so that he will > find out sooner if he is going the wrong way. Fits right in to your > article. I did solve the problem by looking out the windows, seeing the > Big Dipper in the back window, and telling the driver that we were going > South - which was wrong. > > > Figuring out where one should be going before spending effort going > forward is rational. In a car it might not be too costly to drive a few > miles wrong and maybe time is precious, but given the nonzero danger of > driving fast in unknown areas at night your friend probably made a bad > cost/benefit calculation. > > The more costly mistakes or wasted effort (typically because of > opportunity costs) are, the more effort it is rational to put into planning > where one should go. > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 9 21:15:30 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 22:15:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 2016-07-09 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I, for one, would like to hear what you have to say about the Brexit, > and why it disturbs you. There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a rejection of cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. (1) I do not regard myself as a Brit or a Swede. Sure, I have my cultural background, but the parts I truly cherish are non-national: classic, renaissance, enlightenment and modernist ideas about human flourishing, liberty, open societies, science and transhumanism. I feel at home when wandering past Planck's lab in Berlin, Pantheon in Rome, the Royal Institution in London, seeing Franklin on a bill or comparing EU and Japanese robot regulation with a Chinese scholar located in Brazil using Skype. I am a cosmopolitan internationalist: states are merely public service providers. But Brexit was very much a nationalist event. Looking at the attitudes of the people who voted for Brexit ( http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/ ) you see that they dislike multiculturalism, social liberalism, feminism, environmentalism, globalization, the internet and of course immigration. These are the people who regard affiliation to their "English" tribe as higher than even their "British" identity. Many think that the state should reflect their tribal affiliation and reject other affiliations: loyalty and purity are more important than tolerance and openness. These are not my people. I think we need to defend the enlightenment globalist vision. We need to push for tolerance, which is extra complex because many of those who do not share the vision feel they do not benefit from a more cosmopolitan world, and prefer a closed one: tolerance of the Other is bad for their visions. (2) The pre-election arguments that Brexit would be a horrible mess were very strong: essentially all mainstream experts (regardless of political color) in law, policy, economics, administration you cared to ask could give good reasons. However, this did not impress many people. Maybe part was somewhat misguided attempts at being even-handed that gave far too much media space to pretty non-mainstream experts and weak arguments, but the main part seems to have been that people just regarded facts as rhetoric. Why should you trust experts at the Bank of England about monetary policy when you can decide for yourself? The problem is not just that a stupid decision was made - accidents happen. The problem is this does not look like an isolated issue (think Trump, think Syriza). If a society cannot actually tell good and bad evidence apart, then we should expect collective decisions to be random: very bad news when dealing with important and dangerous things. Open societies depend on the freedom of citizens to find things that ought to be changed and then convincing society to change them. If this process is too noisy open societies have no strong advantage - moral or practical - over closed societies. This is deeply troubling, and we spent a fair bit agonizing over it at a panel debate a few days later ( https://www.theguardian.com/membership/audio/2016/jul/01/what-will-the-world-look-like-in-2025-guardian-live-event ) The causes are complex: a cultural shift, networked media, new noise sources, far bigger societies... but we better find them and figure out how to fix them, or we will be drowned in noise. (3) is fairly simple. I became about 10% poorer overnight as the sterling fell. The UK economy will go into recession at least until there is clarity, which at best will take months. There is *huge* uncertainty about EU-funded research, and this will affect the academic world in the UK badly (sure, current grants are still "in the bank", but suddenly nobody is certain if having UK researchers on a new grant proposal is a minus - which means that many will be dropped). Some very minor risk that I might be forced out the UK in a few years or at least be subjected to bureaucratic hassle. Nothing serious, but it makes life slightly worse. There you have it. Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart My land's only borders lie around my heart? --Chess, https://youtu.be/61DiWi00d2w -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 04:11:43 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2016 21:11:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Anders wrote: snip > These are the people who regard affiliation to their "English" tribe as > higher than even their "British" identity. Many think that the state should > reflect their tribal affiliation and reject other affiliations: loyalty and > purity are more important than tolerance and openness. These are not my > people. They are, however, evolved-in-the-stone-age _humans_. Or perhaps I should say social primates. > I think we need to defend the enlightenment globalist vision. We need to > push for tolerance, which is extra complex because many of those who do not > share the vision feel they do not benefit from a more cosmopolitan world, > and prefer a closed one: tolerance of the Other is bad for their visions. There is a solid evolutionary reason that humans who believe the future is bleak are responsive to and spread xenophobic memes. If you want tolerance, then you have to sway the center of the population away from a view that the future that is worse than the present. I have harped on this for going on a decade on this list. You can make the argument that in an absolute sense things are OK, we are not starving yet. But that is not the subjective view of a substantial fraction of the population. Animals, including humans, respond to differences and the average person--particularly in the US--knows that as a class they are not as well off as they were 20-30 years ago and the prospects of their children have diminished. (If they go for higher education, most of them will be saddled with onerous debt.) Further, what do they hear in the media? Endless pontifications about running out of energy and global warming that's going to cook us all or wreck our lives with monster storms, or heat waves, or drown the coastal cities. snip > The problem is not just that a stupid decision was made - accidents happen. > The problem is this does not look like an isolated issue (think Trump, think > Syriza). Think Hitler, think Pol Pot, think Rwanda. Humans were wired up in the stone age by frequent glitches in the food supply where it was survival enhancing for the _genes_ for the tribe members to work up a hate for the neighbors, and try to kill them. Even if they lost (which they did half the time) and all the adults were killed, the genes marched on since the young women of the defeated tribe were incorporated as mates (or second/third mates) by the winners. > If a society cannot actually tell good and bad evidence apart, then > we should expect collective decisions to be random: very bad news when > dealing with important and dangerous things. No kidding! A consequence of these mechanisms is that they make people _stupid_. Think of the US civil war. People with these mechanisms switched on are likely to follow leaders who in bountiful times would be considered crazy. (I have often said that if Hitler had been born ten years earlier or ten years later we would have never heard of him. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that someone else would have occupied the insane leader slot.) Wars of the kind carried on by hunter-gatherers were _not_ rational from the human viewpoint even if they were from the gene's viewpoint. Individual (and most of the time rational) humans last a generation while the gene selection goes on forever. So, when it is in the interest of our genes, an evolved behavioral switch to irrational thinking is flipped. Of course the threshold for such switches differs from person to person. You can have a single person flip into irrational behavior or a substantial fraction of a whole country. I will avoid examples, we have plenty of them recently. > Open societies depend on the > freedom of citizens to find things that ought to be changed and then > convincing society to change them. If this process is too noisy open > societies have no strong advantage - moral or practical - over closed > societies. > > This is deeply troubling, and we spent a fair bit agonizing over it at a > panel debate a few days later ( > https://www.theguardian.com/membership/audio/2016/jul/01/what-will-the-world-look-like-in-2025-guardian-live-event > ) The causes are complex: a cultural shift, networked media, new noise > sources, far bigger societies... but we better find them and figure out how > to fix them, or we will be drowned in noise. I don't think there is anything new here. Different playing field, different players, but the same gene based game rules out of evolution. How to fix is _obvious_. Stagnant or falling per capita income (analogy of food in the stone age) switches on the whole cascade of xenophobic memes building up, irrational thinking, following crazy leaders and, if it goes far enough, internal or external conflict. Rising per capita income switches the cascade off. How long has it been since you heard of the IRA? What happened to them? Ultimately it was the Irish women who cut the birth rate to near replacement. Economic growth got ahead of population growth, per capita income started going up and in particular the future prospects looked better. The IRA lost population support and eventually went out of business. Simple, obvious and easy to verify as this view of social primates is, there is something about it that people are very reluctant to accept or to even consider. Reminds me a bit about figuring out that status seeking was a major human motivation and (since I am one of them) applying it to myself. Back in the mid to late 90s I took an awful lot of flack for recognizing one of my own motivations. Over the next ten years status seeking as a motivation and even admitting it was one of your motives became fairly accepted. The view that mass human behavior, i.e., wars and related social disruptions are based on evolved traits seems to violate practically everyone's view of what humans are. That's a shame because without understanding how the system works we are most unlikely to fix it. Keith From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch Sun Jul 10 07:06:46 2016 From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 03:06:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: <4rPaXbzxi1zwK4h049AohwPEY7abCxktxe8ZnsrX1XEu6fna9wumD0AIQZkdR1RjQx9lSsNplRgp8YAkMCXsZg==@protonmail.ch> I suggest that perhaps the "elite intellectuals" who like all these things are much too smug, and that backfires. Referring to those who support Brexit (and Donald Trump), they use terms like "rednecks" or "white trash" routinely, without even considering that maybe they could have legitimate concerns worth at least listening to and trying to understand. That pushes them to Brexit and Trump. PS I started using my protonmail address for the list as I am thinking to switch from gmail to protonmail as primary mailbox. For a while I'll be using both addresses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 08:27:08 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 09:27:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 9 July 2016 at 22:15, Anders wrote: > There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a rejection of > cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective > cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. > Ooooh! Now we can bore US list members with a month-long argument about Brexit! :) I think the most significant factor was that the voting patterns showed a London 'bubble' voting to Remain and almost all the rest of England voting to Leave the EU. This was England rebelling against rule by 'rich' Londoners. Outside London feels ignored and disenfranchised. "No Taxation Without Representation". (Familiar to Americans?). People voted that had never voted in their lives before. This is a significant event. Many people think that the EU is a dictatorship which is on the verge of collapse anyway. I would not be surprised if more countries leave the EU within a year or two. The discontent among the 'groundlings' is growing. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 14:16:32 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 07:16:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues On 9 July 2016 at 22:15, Anders wrote: >>... There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a > rejection of cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of > collective cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. >...Ooooh! Now we can bore US list members with a month-long argument about Brexit! :) Do feel free sir. No one is being forced to read it, and plenty of us outside Jolly Olde want to know what that was all about. I fear I might have been those ignorant Googlers who were doing searches the day after the vote on "What is Brexit" and "What is EU." OK that is a bit of a stretch. I already knew EU. >...I think the most significant factor was that the voting patterns showed a London 'bubble' voting to Remain and almost all the rest of England voting to Leave the EU. This was England rebelling against rule by 'rich' Londoners... I think we yanks have something vaguely analogous to that going on here. You already know we are collectively appalled at our upcoming choices in the fall, and we know we did this to ourselves. I can imagine the British are watching this unfold and are appalled as well. >...Outside London feels ignored and disenfranchised. "No Taxation Without Representation". (Familiar to Americans?)... Ja, but the British are not armed. There is no recourse but take whatever London tells you. >...People voted that had never voted in their lives before. This is a significant event... Well there ya go. At least one good thing came of this. >...Many people think that the EU is a dictatorship which is on the verge of collapse anyway. I would not be surprised if more countries leave the EU within a year or two. The discontent among the 'groundlings' is growing. BillK BillK, I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the EU, ja? spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 14:45:04 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 07:45:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] tms Message-ID: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> Hey cool, I just saw something interesting. NPR has an article about an experimental treatment for Aspergers called transcranial magnetic stimulation. I didn't take interest in this because of Aspergers (I can relate however. {8^D) but rather this business of stimulating an area of the brain externally. That just sounds wicked cool. Skip down to about the middle of the article where they show the TMS graphic: http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/08/484812170/what-an-hour-o f-emotion-makes-visible?utm_source=npr_newsletter &utm_medium=email&utm_content=20160710&utm_campaign=bestofnpr&utm_term=nprne ws Is that cool or what? OK, there was a discussion a few days ago on how to measure cognitive enhancement to know if some medication effective, but there are plenty of us who will not eat pills, for good reasons: if it does something bad, you can't turn it off immediately. But this thing we can. Idea: iPad app called Chess Free. Its name suggests the cost. It has a setting where you can play blitz, which is five minutes for the game with a five second increment per move, a great way to measure the results of cranial activity realtime. So if you play chess you can measure your performance in realtime with that app, then switch on this device, see if you start to whoop some silicon ass. Move it around to different parts of the skull, see if you can come up with some cool ideas over the board. Of course you know what will happen if it works: everybody will soon be seen walking around with odd looking hats with wires and things like the one the mad scientist used to switch the brains of a chicken with Bugs Bunny. Then of course some yahoo will put it next to his other brain. Then if that works, the yahoos will have them in both places, and then we need a backpack to carry the batteries and then our fashions will really start to look even stranger than guys wearing their pants down around their knees. Where can we get one of these TMS machines? I would try it. I don't want to risk accidentally curing my mild case of Aspergers however. I like me this way. If that went away it risks my hard-earned geek credentials. If it works, I might even try putting a second one up against my head and playing chess. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 15:56:00 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:56:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Brexit for Yanks/was Re: Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues Message-ID: <66370C6B-E872-4122-926D-CBBEA80BA379@gmail.com> On Jul 10, 2016, at 1:27 AM, BillK wrote: >> On 9 July 2016 at 22:15, Anders wrote: >> There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a rejection of >> cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective >> cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. > > > Ooooh! Now we can bore US list members with a month-long argument > about Brexit! :) Actually, right after the Brexit vote, I was hiking in a group with someone from London. It was actually the Americans in the group who kept pestering him the whole time about Brexit to the point where I just avoided the subject. So, no, I don't think you'll bore the US list members. Of course, ten years from now if we're having a Brexit discussion three times a year, then, yes, it might get boring. ;) Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:18:34 2016 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 12:18:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> Message-ID: The lab where I work at Northwestern is using sound to get the same benefits of TMS for certain applications. In fact, sound is even better to enhance slow wave sleep that has many implications for cognition. The trick is to deliver pulses of sound that are synchronized with the positive phase of the brain wave (when the neurons are firing). We have already demonstrated (results shown at conferences, paper coming out soon) we can improve memory in older adults. http://news.feinberg.northwestern.edu/2014/11/papalambros-sleep-enhancement-metabolism/ This kind of brain wave locked sound stimulation could be used to stimulate other brain waves to enhance focus and concentration. Sound is converted in internal electrical pulses so it is like TMS or tDCs that is internal instead of external: more natural, efficient and probably with less side effects. By the way, launching startup soon to commercialize our discoveries in the lab. Giovanni On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:45 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > > > Hey cool, I just saw something interesting. > > > > NPR has an article about an experimental treatment for Aspergers called > transcranial magnetic stimulation. I didn?t take interest in this because > of Aspergers (I can relate however? {8^D) but rather this business of > stimulating an area of the brain externally. That just sounds wicked > cool. Skip down to about the middle of the article where they show the TMS > graphic: > > > > > http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/08/484812170/what-an-hour-of-emotion-makes-visible?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20160710&utm_campaign=bestofnpr&utm_term=nprnews > > > > Is that cool or what? > > > > OK, there was a discussion a few days ago on how to measure cognitive > enhancement to know if some medication effective, but there are plenty of > us who will not eat pills, for good reasons: if it does something bad, you > can?t turn it off immediately. But this thing we can. > > > > Idea: iPad app called Chess Free. Its name suggests the cost. It has a > setting where you can play blitz, which is five minutes for the game with a > five second increment per move, a great way to measure the results of > cranial activity realtime. So if you play chess you can measure your > performance in realtime with that app, then switch on this device, see if > you start to whoop some silicon ass. Move it around to different parts of > the skull, see if you can come up with some cool ideas over the board. > > > > Of course you know what will happen if it works: everybody will soon be > seen walking around with odd looking hats with wires and things like the > one the mad scientist used to switch the brains of a chicken with Bugs > Bunny. Then of course some yahoo will put it next to his other brain. > Then if that works, the yahoos will have them in both places, and then we > need a backpack to carry the batteries and then our fashions will really > start to look even stranger than guys wearing their pants down around their > knees. > > > > Where can we get one of these TMS machines? I would try it. I don?t want > to risk accidentally curing my mild case of Aspergers however. I like me > this way. If that went away it risks my hard-earned geek credentials. If > it works, I might even try putting a second one up against my head and > playing chess. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:24:38 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 17:24:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 10 July 2016 at 15:16, spike wrote: > > BillK, I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits > collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the EU, ja? > A country leaving the EU has never been done before, so nobody knows what might happen. There will be a lot of arguing and making up rules as they go along. One problem is that politicians see the EU as a gravy train with unlimited funds. So there will be many discussions, conferences, all expenses paid trips, etc. Estimates say the jamboree will run from two years to possibly more than ten years. And rejoining the EU takes just as long, if not longer. That assumes that no other country votes to leave as well, and that the EU lasts for another ten years. The rebels complaining about the EU and the looming financial problems in the EU make the future uncertain. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:33:14 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 09:33:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:16 AM, spike wrote: > I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits > collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the EU, > ja? > Or they can hold a second referendum to "confirm Brexit", perhaps citing "irregularities in the vote" (and marking Secret that the "irregularities" are actually the post-election backtrackings, on the justification that overturning Brexit will mend international relations therefore revealing a possibly-cynical reason for the reconfirmation vote might cause Leave to win again and thus harm international relations, one of the explicit criteria that allows things to be marked Secret). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 16:34:33 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 09:34:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> Message-ID: <009b01d1dac8$f19b82b0$d4d28810$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:19 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] tms >?The lab where I work at Northwestern is using sound to get the same benefits of TMS for certain applications? Giovanni Too late Giovanni, sound was already being used for that application back when my parents were teenagers. That?s how I got here. Oh, wait, you were talking about that other? It occurred to me I might be able to make one of these devices, not your sound thing but the electromagnet TMS device. I bet I can make a homebrew signal generator with a Raspberry Pi, then generate signals using equations. We could use that to drive the voltage on an electromagnet. Hey for that matter we could just take any old speaker, remove the paper cone and base magnet and we don?t even need to make anything; it already has the voice coil with the iron core, everything already connected to wires, ready for our signal input. Now all we need to do is figure out how to put the whole thing in some kind of wearable device. We could even take the sound signals from our favorite rock-n-roll music, pump the signal through the voice coil, create a magnetic field with the same rhythms and such, completely without sound, only EM. If that works and enhances performance, I might try putting it against my head too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 16:53:36 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 09:53:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > How to fix is _obvious_. Stagnant or falling per capita income > (analogy of food in the stone age) switches on the whole cascade of > xenophobic memes building up, irrational thinking, following crazy > leaders and, if it goes far enough, internal or external conflict. > Rising per capita income switches the cascade off. > > How long has it been since you heard of the IRA? What happened to > them? Ultimately it was the Irish women who cut the birth rate to > near replacement. Economic growth got ahead of population growth, per > capita income started going up and in particular the future prospects > looked better. The IRA lost population support and eventually went > out of business. > This makes a lot of sense. But where, then, are the candidates proposing to redistribute the growing wealth to the lower and middle classes, so as to reverse their diminishing prospects? Certainly a lot more wealth is being generated; it's just not getting out to most of society. Why do US tax brackets currently stop at 39.6% at $406,751+ annual income? Why not another, higher tax bracket (say, 49.9%, or at least 44.9%) for $1,000,001+ or even $10,000,001+? ( https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Historical_Marginal_Tax_Rate_for_Highest_and_Lowest_Income_Earners.jpg shows that we had about 70% highest tax rate for the '70s and beyond, and before that the highest tax rate was about 90% since WWII. The economy was chugging along just fine, for the most part. I know the dangers of "good old days" nostalgia, but that's a specific thing that could be restored.) Sure, Congress could vote down such a proposal - and a President pushing this could then use that vote as sufficient evidence to call for a corruption investigation against each member voting against. Said President would probably get quite a lot of public support for doing so, possibly enough to also launch recall efforts against the members of Congress who vote against. Political hardball? Perhaps, but it's also doing what the voters want, and the voters are supposed to be the bosses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:01:55 2016 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:01:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <009b01d1dac8$f19b82b0$d4d28810$@att.net> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <009b01d1dac8$f19b82b0$d4d28810$@att.net> Message-ID: The fields used in TMS are really really strong. And it actually can be dangerous. Notice how they said the face of the subject was twitching when the pulses were delivered. You have to be trained to use TMS. The magnetic field produced by a speaker probably are not strong enough or if they are I would not mess with my brain with them. And I'm pretty open to experiment with myself. Giovanni On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 12:34 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Giovanni Santostasi > *Sent:* Sunday, July 10, 2016 9:19 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] tms > > > > >?The lab where I work at Northwestern is using sound to get the same > benefits of TMS for certain applications? Giovanni > > > > > > Too late Giovanni, sound was already being used for that application back > when my parents were teenagers. That?s how I got here. > > > > Oh, wait, you were talking about that other? > > > > It occurred to me I might be able to make one of these devices, not your > sound thing but the electromagnet TMS device. I bet I can make a homebrew > signal generator with a Raspberry Pi, then generate signals using > equations. We could use that to drive the voltage on an electromagnet. > > > > Hey for that matter we could just take any old speaker, remove the paper > cone and base magnet and we don?t even need to make anything; it already > has the voice coil with the iron core, everything already connected to > wires, ready for our signal input. Now all we need to do is figure out how > to put the whole thing in some kind of wearable device. > > > > We could even take the sound signals from our favorite rock-n-roll music, > pump the signal through the voice coil, create a magnetic field with the > same rhythms and such, completely without sound, only EM. If that works > and enhances performance, I might try putting it against my head too. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Jul 10 17:03:19 2016 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:03:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> Message-ID: Video and an interview with an articulate guy with autism who experienced this from April. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/the-shocking-experience-of-finally-seeing-the-full-spectrum-of-emotion/ There are specs to build your own online which early-adopting biohackers are using. Or you find a practice with one used clinically or for research (marketed to treating depression) They're around. -Henry > On Jul 10, 2016, at 10:45 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > Hey cool, I just saw something interesting. > > NPR has an article about an experimental treatment for Aspergers called transcranial magnetic stimulation. I didn?t take interest in this because of Aspergers (I can relate however? {8^D) but rather this business of stimulating an area of the brain externally. That just sounds wicked cool. Skip down to about the middle of the article where they show the TMS graphic: > > http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/08/484812170/what-an-hour-of-emotion-makes-visible?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20160710&utm_campaign=bestofnpr&utm_term=nprnews > > Is that cool or what? > > OK, there was a discussion a few days ago on how to measure cognitive enhancement to know if some medication effective, but there are plenty of us who will not eat pills, for good reasons: if it does something bad, you can?t turn it off immediately. But this thing we can. > > Idea: iPad app called Chess Free. Its name suggests the cost. It has a setting where you can play blitz, which is five minutes for the game with a five second increment per move, a great way to measure the results of cranial activity realtime. So if you play chess you can measure your performance in realtime with that app, then switch on this device, see if you start to whoop some silicon ass. Move it around to different parts of the skull, see if you can come up with some cool ideas over the board. > > Of course you know what will happen if it works: everybody will soon be seen walking around with odd looking hats with wires and things like the one the mad scientist used to switch the brains of a chicken with Bugs Bunny. Then of course some yahoo will put it next to his other brain. Then if that works, the yahoos will have them in both places, and then we need a backpack to carry the batteries and then our fashions will really start to look even stranger than guys wearing their pants down around their knees. > > Where can we get one of these TMS machines? I would try it. I don?t want to risk accidentally curing my mild case of Aspergers however. I like me this way. If that went away it risks my hard-earned geek credentials. If it works, I might even try putting a second one up against my head and playing chess. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 16:59:28 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 09:59:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00b701d1dacc$6c323bb0$4496b310$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues On 10 July 2016 at 15:16, spike wrote: > >>... BillK, I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits > collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the EU, ja? > >...A country leaving the EU has never been done before, so nobody knows what might happen... That assumes that no other country votes to leave as well, and that the EU lasts for another ten years. The rebels complaining about the EU and the looming financial problems in the EU make the future uncertain...BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, well ja. As I understand it, the notion of a unified Europe was about mutual economic advantage. If a country perceives it does not profit from this union, I understand their wanting out. So now the remaining unified states need to show that it is economically advantageous to the Brits to be there. If so, then it is Paul Revere all over again: the British are coming. In all I read on the topic, I saw little strong incentive for Britain to stay in. I don't really see it for Germany or Sweden either, but I see some big costs with staying in. spike From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 17:02:01 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:02:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00b801d1dacc$c733f670$559be350$@att.net> >? Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:16 AM, spike > wrote: >>?I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the EU, ja? >?Or they can hold a second referendum to "confirm Brexit", perhaps citing "irregularities in the vote" (and marking Secret that the "irregularities" are actually the post-election backtrackings? Do the British have online non-paper machine voting? If so, they can make it come out any way they want, the way we do here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 17:26:14 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:26:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <00b801d1dacc$c733f670$559be350$@att.net> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> <00b801d1dacc$c733f670$559be350$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:02 AM, spike wrote: > *>? Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other > issues > > > >?Or they can hold a second referendum to "confirm Brexit", perhaps citing > "irregularities in the vote" (and marking Secret that the "irregularities" > are actually the post-election backtrackings? > > > > Do the British have online non-paper machine voting? If so, they can make > it come out any way they want, the way we do here. > >From what I hear, their votes are all paper. Doesn't prevent unspecified "irregularities" from being cited, though. (Forged ballots are a thing, and if there was a legitimate technical problem there would be a strong case for Secret marking...though also a strong case against.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 17:17:49 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 10:17:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <009b01d1dac8$f19b82b0$d4d28810$@att.net> Message-ID: <00f101d1dace$fc3b7c10$f4b27430$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Giovanni Santostasi Subject: Re: [ExI] tms >? And it actually can be dangerous. Notice how they said the face of the subject was twitching when the pulses were delivered?Giovanni So get two coils and put one next to each of your buns. Mechanized twerking. We are talking a commercial product here more popular than the iPhone. Giovanni, we can be rich and famous. You can be famous, I?ll volunteer to be rich. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 10:27:00 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 11:27:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 2016-07-10 09:27, BillK wrote: > On 9 July 2016 at 22:15, Anders wrote: >> There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a rejection of >> cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective >> cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. > Ooooh! Now we can bore US list members with a month-long argument > about Brexit! :) That was partially why I named the thread something different. Because I do think there are more important things going on here than politics on a small island. (Still, we now do have a response to endless Trump-threads ;-) > I think the most significant factor was that the voting patterns > showed a London 'bubble' voting to Remain and almost all the rest of > England voting to Leave the EU. This was England rebelling against > rule by 'rich' Londoners. Outside London feels ignored and disenfranchised. It is interesting that you describe it as 'London'. Because clearly it was not just London that voted remain: the demographic is rather urban, younger, more educated, more well-off and so on. West Wales and Manchester are part of this "London" (we can ignore Scotland and N Ireland since they are special cases). The bubbles are more subtle: since you tend to interact with people like you in the total social network, it is entirely possible for leave and remain people to live side by side without even noticing that there are a lot of dissenting views nearby. That is perhaps part of the epistemic trouble: thanks to the increasing role of online social media you are less likely to notice what your physical neighbour thinks, since he is not your social neighbour. If you had to meet at the town hall regularly you both would actually know what that other fool thinks. > The discontent among the 'groundlings' is growing. Yes, and this is worrying. Because either we internationalists let them have their say, and hope after a few Greek-style country collapses they will learn - huge suffering and losses of opportunity, and as the 30s demonstrated the lesson learned is not always the right one - or one has to go on a charm offensive to show the groundlings that "internationalisation works for you", which typically means bribing them with redistribution and hence introducing clientelism. There should be better approaches in the toolbox? Most automation technologies make it easier to turn capital into labour in the production equation. That means that (1) having access to capital of the right kinds becomes more important, and (2) labour of many kinds becomes less important - and people and regions optimized for one system of labour will lose out. Quite often without understanding why, since the most obvious things like offshoring and robots often have smaller effects than refactoring and smart supply chains. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 10:39:49 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 11:39:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-07-10 05:11, Keith Henson wrote: > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 2:15 PM, Anders wrote: >> I think we need to defend the enlightenment globalist vision. We need to >> push for tolerance, which is extra complex because many of those who do not >> share the vision feel they do not benefit from a more cosmopolitan world, >> and prefer a closed one: tolerance of the Other is bad for their visions. > There is a solid evolutionary reason that humans who believe the > future is bleak are responsive to and spread xenophobic memes. If you > want tolerance, then you have to sway the center of the population > away from a view that the future that is worse than the present. Yup. I agree with that. The problem is that the cosmopolitan vision is not a better one if you have rooted your values in the local tribe. Living across Europe like I do sounds rootless to them - they think that one *ought to* show loyalty to ones nation, heritage and other tribal factors, and doing anything else is being a traitor (that should be altruistically punished). We know empirically that young people tend to diffuse out of their tribes when there are good opportunities, so this is not necessarily a strong enough effect to keep people locked in. But as you say, when times are hard or perceived as hard young people of course stay close. And if the epistemology is broken things can look horrible indeed while being objectively good. The worrying thing is that maybe the tribalism also leads to broken epistemics, and makes it even harder to show that there are objective and moral reasons to go global. So the question seems to be how to hack general futures outlook, actual income, and epistemics to become better. Fixing just one will not work, fixing two is likely just a partial solution and might cause stronger polarization between groups. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 14:47:59 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 15:47:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2016-07-10 15:16, spike wrote: > BillK, I don't see why this is considered a big crisis. If the Brits > collectively decide this was a bad idea, they can vote to rejoin the > EU, ja? Not really. Joining or leaving the EU is a very complex legal and bureaucratic process, so if Article 50 gets invoked there will be at least 5+ years of no free trade and endless diplomacy for the leave/rejoin process. And invoking another UK referendum before that would require political capital none of the parties have: they are both near splitting right now, and any PM triggering a new referendum would likely also trigger the final breakup of the current parties. In theory it is likely as easy as California leaving or rejoining the US, I guess. (OK, that is an exaggeration, the US is a bit more tightly integrated). I am feeling smug I applied for a position on an EU ethics board on the referendum night with both my UK and Swedish office addresses; I might end up commuting by train to Brussels to do EU work from a non-EU country. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 17:41:48 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:41:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <00b701d1dacc$6c323bb0$4496b310$@att.net> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> <00b701d1dacc$6c323bb0$4496b310$@att.net> Message-ID: <9dd19ac4-88c6-9318-63a6-fa99f6e83504@aleph.se> On 2016-07-10 17:59, spike wrote: > Hi BillK, well ja. As I understand it, the notion of a unified Europe > was about mutual economic advantage. No. That is the truly sad and dangerous part of this story. The key motivator of unified Europe was a "never again" vision of ensuring that there would never be another world war. And economics was the tool for it: if you are trading with somebody you do not make war on them, in general. But over time people forgot about the peace motivation because it was so obvious that it never needed stating, and it all became a matter of economics. Very much like how the success of vaccines have made anti-vaxxers rise: most people have no idea of how dangerous many of the nearly gone diseases are. > In all I read on the topic, I saw little strong incentive for Britain to > stay in. I don't really see it for Germany or Sweden either, but I see some > big costs with staying in. Remember that free trade tends to be good for business. Add barriers and you will tend to become poorer. Similarly, making it easy to move from one place to another means you can go where the jobs are. It took me filling out a simple web form to legally move from Sweden to the UK. A Swedish friend has spent thousands of dollars and months of bureaucracy to get the visa he needs to take up his new job in the US. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 17:50:12 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:50:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> Message-ID: <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> I didn't know there were people who did not know about TMS :-) When I first looked at it back in 2006, it looked like it had too low effect size to be worthwhile. Since then a fair number of experiments have demonstrated interesting and potentially useful effects. Also, direct current stimulation (DCS) also seems to work, as does a bunch of related treatments. I review some of the methods in: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230564923_Non-pharmacological_cognitive_enhancement The simplicity has led to a fair number of amateurs experimenting, causing concerns among the researchers in the field. On 2016-07-10 15:45, spike wrote: > > Hey cool, I just saw something interesting. > > NPR has an article about an experimental treatment for Aspergers > called transcranial magnetic stimulation. I didn?t take interest in > this because of Aspergers (I can relate however? {8^D) but rather > this business of stimulating an area of the brain externally. That > just sounds wicked cool. Skip down to about the middle of the article > where they show the TMS graphic: > > http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/07/08/484812170/what-an-hour-of-emotion-makes-visible?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20160710&utm_campaign=bestofnpr&utm_term=nprnews > > Is that cool or what? > > OK, there was a discussion a few days ago on how to measure cognitive > enhancement to know if some medication effective, but there are plenty > of us who will not eat pills, for good reasons: if it does something > bad, you can?t turn it off immediately. But this thing we can. > > Idea: iPad app called Chess Free. Its name suggests the cost. It has > a setting where you can play blitz, which is five minutes for the game > with a five second increment per move, a great way to measure the > results of cranial activity realtime. So if you play chess you can > measure your performance in realtime with that app, then switch on > this device, see if you start to whoop some silicon ass. Move it > around to different parts of the skull, see if you can come up with > some cool ideas over the board. > > Of course you know what will happen if it works: everybody will soon > be seen walking around with odd looking hats with wires and things > like the one the mad scientist used to switch the brains of a chicken > with Bugs Bunny. Then of course some yahoo will put it next to his > other brain. Then if that works, the yahoos will have them in both > places, and then we need a backpack to carry the batteries and then > our fashions will really start to look even stranger than guys wearing > their pants down around their knees. > > Where can we get one of these TMS machines? I would try it. I don?t > want to risk accidentally curing my mild case of Aspergers however. I > like me this way. If that went away it risks my hard-earned geek > credentials. If it works, I might even try putting a second one up > against my head and playing chess. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 10 20:04:51 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 13:04:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> Message-ID: <021101d1dae6$524398b0$f6caca10$@att.net> >. On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Subject: Re: [ExI] tms I didn't know there were people who did not know about TMS :-). -- Dr Anders Sandberg Anders I am far too not hip on too many things, not just European politics. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 17:46:05 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:46:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> <00b801d1dacc$c733f670$559be350$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2016-07-10 18:26, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 10:02 AM, spike > wrote: > > ** > > Do the British have online non-paper machine voting? If so, they > can make it come out any way they want, the way we do here. > > > From what I hear, their votes are all paper. Doesn't prevent > unspecified "irregularities" from being cited, though. (Forged > ballots are a thing, and if there was a legitimate technical problem > there would be a strong case for Secret marking...though also a strong > case against.) It is handled like in most civilized countries: paper ballots, delivered in envelopes to registrars that check you against the voting records. The count is overseen by volunteers from the different parties and interested citizens. There is some competitiveness between a few of the localities to be the first to finish counting. Overall, it is tough to game the system since it is very transparent. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 21:01:33 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:01:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <004101d1dab5$a9b740f0$fd25c2d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:47 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > And invoking another UK referendum before that would require political > capital none of the parties have: they are both near splitting right now, > and any PM triggering a new referendum would likely also trigger the final > breakup of the current parties. > So you'd need a PM aiming for that, likely hoping to come out well with whatever parties arise afterward? Though that seems unlikely, given how PMs are selected in the first place. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 21:06:14 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 14:06:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: <021101d1dae6$524398b0$f6caca10$@att.net> References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> <021101d1dae6$524398b0$f6caca10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 1:04 PM, spike wrote: > *>?* *On Behalf Of *Anders Sandberg > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] tms > > > > I didn't know there were people who did not know about TMS :-)? > > > > Anders I am far too not hip on too many things, not just European politics. {8^D > > spike > > https://xkcd.com/1053/ (Sometimes, you don't even need words. Not your own, at any rate.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 21:14:08 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 16:14:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> <021101d1dae6$524398b0$f6caca10$@att.net> Message-ID: The simplicity has led to a fair number of amateurs experimenting, causing concerns among the researchers in the field. anders Then there was the guy who took an actual Black and Decker drill and put a hole in his cranium. I forgot what for (but I'll bet Spike can think of some dillies). Yes, he survived. Be careful what you show the public, eh? Or my wife, who as Safety Director for a play, got a drill and tried to put a hole in her jeans. Of course it wound up like crazy, caused her to fall and break her ankle. No, she continued as Safety Director, walking around on her crutches. bill w On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 1:04 PM, spike wrote: > >> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Anders Sandberg >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] tms >> >> >> >> I didn't know there were people who did not know about TMS :-)? >> >> >> >> Anders I am far too not hip on too many things, not just European politics. {8^D >> >> spike >> >> > https://xkcd.com/1053/ > > (Sometimes, you don't even need words. Not your own, at any rate.) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 10 23:57:23 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 18:57:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: Keith: If you want tolerance, then you have to sway the center of the population away from a view that the future that is worse than the present. There is an insidious mechanism in our brains called adaptation level. In short, we adapt to new circumstances such that we view then as normal despite their being, for example, much better than what we had been used to. As level of reward grows, so do expectations. Those of us of an age like Keith and me remember the 50s. The 50s have been often cited as a halcyon time that we wish we could go back to. It will take a very short time for you to think of what we lacked in the 50s and what we have now. No comparison. Far better off now. But people forget that. (though there has been little real progress in jobs and income the last 15-20 years or so - American blame trade agreements). There must be some fundamental difference between those who choose to live their lives thinking about the past and those like me who live for the future. Live in the past and you'll start regretting. Waste of time. ----- I agree with Anders that Brexit is part of a larger phenomenon nearly worldwide. Immigration has clearly caused many to favor isolationism as the answer. ----- Cosmopolitanism is a form of humanism. As a humanist I feel a connection with all people, not just my tribe and its beliefs. Which brings up patriotism. Long ago I encountered the idea that intellectuals were more faithful to ideas than to places or governments or their tribe. That means, and studies show, that liberals like me are less patriotic than conservatives. Haidt seems to regard this as moral weakness. I do not. I have thought about it a lot: what wars would I have eagerly joined that the USA got into? WWII is the classic one in which there is no doubt but what we have to fight - all of us. But how about Viet Nam? Iraq? Would I want to die in such a war? No way. I'd emigrate first. Far too many people in history have died for stupid causes. Not me. Some would call this cowardice. I'd call it rational. I was of an age to serve in Viet Nam. Even then I knew it was stupid. Do I support my country's government? Depends on what they are up to. (People who are at Kohlberg's stage 5 or 6 can make difficult citizens, who don't shut up and do what they are told). bill w On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 3:27 AM, BillK wrote: > On 9 July 2016 at 22:15, Anders wrote: > > There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a > rejection of > > cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective > > cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. > > > > > Ooooh! Now we can bore US list members with a month-long argument > about Brexit! :) > > I think the most significant factor was that the voting patterns > showed a London 'bubble' voting to Remain and almost all the rest of > England voting to Leave the EU. This was England rebelling against > rule by 'rich' Londoners. > > Outside London feels ignored and disenfranchised. "No Taxation Without > Representation". (Familiar to Americans?). > People voted that had never voted in their lives before. This is a > significant event. > > Many people think that the EU is a dictatorship which is on the verge > of collapse anyway. I would not be surprised if more countries leave > the EU within a year or two. The discontent among the 'groundlings' is > growing. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 10 23:12:56 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 00:12:56 +0100 Subject: [ExI] tms In-Reply-To: References: <004401d1dab9$a5936400$f0ba2c00$@att.net> <78522436-e171-bea8-45a1-293b9cc6d55f@aleph.se> <021101d1dae6$524398b0$f6caca10$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2016-07-10 22:14, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The simplicity has led to a fair number of amateurs experimenting, > causing concerns among the researchers in the field. anders > Then there was the guy who took an actual Black and Decker drill and > put a hole in his cranium. I forgot what for (but I'll bet Spike can > think of some dillies). Yes, he survived. Be careful what you show > the public, eh? I personally know a lady who did it. At the time she was leading the Trepanation Party, arguing the national health service should cover it since having brains pulsate freely is good and enhancing. She is doing fine and is today a respected part of the establishment as a somewhat eccentric noblewoman (this is why I love the UK). When I took my medical engineering courses the teacher was a emergency surgeon, who delighted in telling us gruesome things about what to do in a *real* emergency. The running joke was epidural vs. subdural hematomas, and the entire lecture hall responded by chanting "Black and Decker! Wroom wroom!" doing drilling gestures. (*Proper* trepanation and craniotomy uses a cut-off so that the drill stops once you are through the bone.) > Or my wife, who as Safety Director for a play, got a drill and tried > to put a hole in her jeans. Of course it wound up like crazy, caused > her to fall and break her ankle. No, she continued as Safety > Director, walking around on her crutches. Presumably she took the job seriously after the accident? Sometimes it can be quite helpful. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Sun Jul 10 15:06:46 2016 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:06:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues Message-ID: You may have heard of the Bootlegger and the Baptist? (Hint: they both supported Prohibition.) In an old shoe box in the garage, I found a dusty, type-written version of that parable that I thought I?d share. It has no relation to any current issues, of course. A Parable (With Nothing To Do With Brexit) Once upon a time there was a tiny Little Village, which, though rather isolated from neighboring villages, was a pleasant and prosperous place to live. In fact, this village was so tiny there were only ten adults of voting age in the entire village. Yet, small as was, the village was a liberal democracy (with a Majority Party and an Opposition Party). True, the Opposition Party had but one voter, the man who was running against the town mayor. The nine other voters were all happy with the current Mayor, including the Mayor, if she did say so herself. One contentious issue did divide the villagers: alcohol. One of them, you see, was a Teetotaler, who held liquor to be the root of all evil, and this fellow constantly harangued the others about about the sins of drink. The rest of the village tolerated his intolerance, since it did them no harm, even though they continued to enjoy a glass of wine at home over dinner or a beer with friends at the pub. Only two other people in the village supported the Teetotaler. One, strangely enough, was the owner of the pub. He convinced the Leader of the Opposition Party that they could ally themselves with the Teetotaler by proposing a compromise: Strict Regulation of Alcohol. How about a law that one could only drink in the pub, and each customer must report the number of drinks consumed, the kind of drink, and the hours spent drinking? The Teetotaler supported Regulation because it came closest to outlawing alcohol; the Businessman supported Regulation because it would give him a monopoly over selling booze; and the Politician supported it because he now had two more potential voters than he had before. Everyone else, though, hated the idea, and still outvoted the proposed Regulation by seven to three votes. The Politician now happened upon a fantastic idea. Whereas the Little Village had always been isolated in the past, technology now made it easy to visit other villages. Neighboring villages were, on the whole, much larger?and their people much poorer?than the Little Village. The other villages weren?t all democracies, and even those that were didn?t have as many liberties as the Little Village. But some other villages did have large numbers of people who hated alcohol, although for slightly different reasons than the Teetotaler in the Little Village. The Politician invited three newcomers to live in the Little Village. Of course, there weren?t houses for them yet, so the Teetotaler did his part by asking one house owner to take in a newcomer as a Refugee; the Tradesman did his part by asking one house owner to rent a room to a newcomer because the new fellow had a job in the pub and it would benefit everyone economically; and the Politician told a third house owner that he ought to take in a guest because he might be a guest in another village some day, and the free movement of peoples was a great thing. The Opposition Party began agitating for Strict Regulation of Alcohol. They now had six supporters in all and the other side realized that their seven voters were in danger of losing their majority; not because a majority of the original Little Villagers had been convinced to change their minds after debate and discussion, but because the immigrants had swelled the ranks of what had once been a minority position. There were now six (potential) voters for Regulation and only seven opposed. Furthermore, the Opposition Party proposed to bring in even more immigrants. All of whom, coincidently, were likely to be in favor of Strict Regulation of Alcohol. The Mayor also noticed this trend. But instead of opposing the immigration of more Teetotalers, she announced that she?supported it! Why? For the most altruistic of reasons, naturally: to free trade, to open boarders, to help refugees. And also, it had not failed to catch her attention that the proposed new Regulations would give her much, much more information about the voters than ever before, and she began to plot how she would use her new knowledge to manipulate voters. Of course, the Majority Party would now support the Regulation agenda. The other original Little Villagers objected to the situation and demanded the right to vote on whether new immigrants should be allowed to settle in the village. But by now, with the defection of the Mayor, they had indeed lost their majority. The Little Village voted seven to six to bring in more immigrants, and seven to six to make some original homeowners (but not the Politician or the Tradesman, of course) share their homes with the newcomers. And soon enough, as more new voters poured in, every vote became eight to six, then nine to six, then twenty to six, and then a hundred to six. For the Politicians of both parties had discovered that whenever they wanted to win an election or impose a new Regulation that increased their own power, all they had to do was import more voters who would keep voting them into power. The Politicians could buy as many new voters as they liked by giving away the houses, food, jobs and even daughters of their neighbors. That was the beauty of combining "open" borders with an ever more-powerful, regulatory, welfare state. Until it finally dawned on the Politicians that?since so many of the immigrants didn?t come from democracies in the first place?these new denizens wouldn?t miss it when it was gone, and the Little Village (which was now a rather Big Village) voted democracy right out of existence. No one was more surprised than the pub owner when alcohol was banned completely and he was taken out into the square and beheaded. The moral of the story: At least they weren?t racist. Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 12:08:53 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 08:08:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 5:15 PM, Anders wrote: There are three reasons Brexit disturbs me: (1) it represents a rejection > of cosmopolitanism, (2) it represents a serious failure of collective > cognition, (3) it likely has somewhat bad effects for me. > ### I am surprised you are a Remainer. The EU bureaucracy is a vastly inefficient, illiberal, destructive system, with very weak feedback loops, uncontrolled and uncontrollable and therefore liable to make more and more costly mistakes. It has proven itself incapable of protecting Europe against hostile immigrants (granted, many national bureaucracies are not any better), it limits the experimentation and competition that is the grist for progress, it blatantly limits freedom of association and it isn't necessary to prevent internecine warfare - that issue hinges on warfare being currently unfashionable in Europe, not on bureaucratic diktats. And on an individual level, the likelihood that Brexit would have a prolonged major negative influence on your own life is very low. Do you really worry about being expelled? I am reasonable sure that expelling Oxford scholars is not what Brexit is about. Cosmopolitanism thrives in liberty, not in red tape, cynical lobbying, financial malfeasance and abridgment of basic rights of association. As an immigrant, cosmopolitan and libertarian, I applaud Brits for their grit. Brexit FTW. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Jul 11 21:38:29 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 22:38:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: <57900d3a-e94b-e094-dbd6-dd947bc914ed@aleph.se> On 2016-07-11 13:08, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > I am reasonable sure that expelling Oxford scholars is not what > Brexit is about. To the ones shouting at people in the street for using foreign language, that is all it is about. To Cameron it was a simple sop to keep the party together with no real risk. The meaning of chains of events is not set by intentions of originators, or even the forces causing them. The fall of the East Bloc or the Arab Spring were not "about" anything, just big chains of events that led to lots of consequences - the various groups trying to push them in certain directions did not have great success in imposing a particular overall meaning. While one can argue there will be a cutting of red tape, a plausible outcome is actually that the red tape remains but without an UK voice (the EES option, which I think soft brexiters like May want to aim for), plus regulatory uncertainty and the addition of hastily added patches - in a administrative/legal system that rarely removes broken pieces. Hard brexit means that every piece of EU regulation has to be checked and possibly imported as a new law, possibly differently in Scotland and N Ireland; there is plenty of potential for accidents there even if there is an overall reduction in rules. The EES option will most likely require free movement of people (greatly angering many of the voters), the hard brexit will require some quota system and may lead to the expulsion of millions of British expats. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 16:30:29 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:30:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question Message-ID: Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so theoretically you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not obey it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch Tue Jul 12 16:37:04 2016 From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:37:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is my understanding as well, but ignoring the results of the referendum would really be a slap in the face of democracy, as British politicians of both camps have noted. The people would completely lose faith in the democratic process, which is the worse possible outcome. -- Giulio Prisco giulioprisco at protonmail.ch -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question Local Time: July 12, 2016 6:30 PM UTC Time: July 12, 2016 4:30 PM From: foozler83 at gmail.com To: anders at aleph.se,extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so theoretically you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not obey it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:04:53 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:04:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 Maybe my own sub-super intelligence is the problem, but I don't understand why superintelligence is considered important. AI/singularity fans seem to consider it practically a superpower, but I think it's overrated. Am I wrong? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:10:39 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:10:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> Message-ID: <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> On Jul 12, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Dave Sill wrote: >> On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > Maybe my own sub-super intelligence is the problem, but I don't understand why superintelligence is considered important. AI/singularity fans seem to consider it practically a superpower, but I think it's overrated. Am I wrong? In practical terms, then of it as a super-problem-solver. You have it (or them) and if they are benign you can much more easily solve much of the other problems. Or so the story goes. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:22:56 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:22:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Jul 12, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 > > > Maybe my own sub-super intelligence is the problem, but I don't understand > why superintelligence is considered important. AI/singularity fans seem to > consider it practically a superpower, but I think it's overrated. Am I > wrong? > > > In practical terms, then of it as a super-problem-solver. You have it (or > them) and if they are benign you can much more easily solve much of the > other problems. Or so the story goes. > Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers? Above average IQ, how much does intelligence help solve problems? Seems like other factors like curiosity, persistence, knowledge, creativity, charisma, etc., play significant roles in solving real-world problems, but we don't ponder supercreative AIs or fear supercharismatic AIs (which we probably should, if such a thing is possible). -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:35:29 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:35:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 July 2016 at 17:37, Giulio Prisco wrote: > This is my understanding as well, but ignoring the results of the referendum > would really be a slap in the face of democracy, as British politicians of > both camps have noted. The people would completely lose faith in the > democratic process, which is the worse possible outcome. > > -- > Giulio Prisco > giulioprisco at protonmail.ch > Gmail put your message in my Spam folder. Reason: Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in protonmail.ch but has failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication. ------------ Gmail gives more detail: Spammers can forge a message to make it look like it's sent by a real website or company that you might trust. To help protect you from such messages, Google tries to verify the real sender using email authentication. The authentication process tries to verify the real sender by looking at a message's authentication data. This data should be included in a message's "signed-by" or "mailed-by" headers (shown beneath the subject line when you look at a message's details). When the sender doesn't include this data, we can't be sure whether or not the message was forged. For example, a message might claim to be from a Gmail address, but we can't confirm that claim if the message doesn't have authentication data. -------- This may be an Exi list problem if the authentication data is removed or scrambled before forwarding to the list. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 17:48:24 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:48:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 July 2016 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so theoretically > you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not obey > it. > Strictly speaking the EU referendum is not legally binding. In the UK, Parliament makes the laws. But the Prime Minister (Cameron) called the referendum because he claimed that it was too big a decision for Parliament to decide by itself without asking the people to vote. (The UK joining the EU was also voted on in a referendum in 1975). So, on this issue Parliament sees itself as rubber-stamping the decision of the people. There would be political chaos if Parliament decided to ignore the expressed will of the people. BillK From spike66 at att.net Tue Jul 12 18:11:19 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ce01d1dc68$cb5d8bb0$6218a310$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 9:30 AM To: Anders Sandberg ; ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so theoretically you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not obey it. bill w Ja, they could legally do that. But if they do, it is the last referendum and the last we will hear from most of the parliamentarians once the next election comes along. When Parliament was doing things like that here, we hurled tea into the harbor, to remind government who they serve. Britain is a little different with their still having royalty. That whole business of being subjects of the queen makes me squirm, even if it is symbolic. But all the parliamentarians are also subjects of that same queen. As far as I know, she doesn?t interfere with the business of government. Our local Brits could educate me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 18:28:05 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:28:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2016 9:32 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so theoretically you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not obey it. Having another one to confirm seems the only politically plausible option of those, and only with a very good excuse to do so. (I recall suggesting that the PM could claim to have noticed unspecified irregularities in the vote and call for a confirmation on that basis, marking Secret the exact irregularities - those being just the backpedaling and other regrets, a weak excuse but reversing Brexit would be an attempt to repair international relations, and "could harm international relations" is explicitly sufficient criteria to mark something Secret in their system. Of course, the Remain campaign could note the backpedaling to paint Leave as liars when they promise anything good. That said, a PM who did this would do well to negotiate a far better deal with the EU in exchange for calling for the confirmation, possibly starting with "fire your ministers who've voiced revenge fantasies for our people saying they're fed up with you: that's not something you get to be angry about, that's something you need to fix ASAP, and ministers who disagree have no place in your employ".) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 19:38:15 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:38:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strange, I will report a bug to protonmail. I am transitioning from gmail to protonmail, but I guess there are still a few problems to be ironed out. G. On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:35 PM, BillK wrote: > On 12 July 2016 at 17:37, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> This is my understanding as well, but ignoring the results of the referendum >> would really be a slap in the face of democracy, as British politicians of >> both camps have noted. The people would completely lose faith in the >> democratic process, which is the worse possible outcome. >> >> -- >> Giulio Prisco >> giulioprisco at protonmail.ch >> > > > Gmail put your message in my Spam folder. > > Reason: > Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in protonmail.ch > but has failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication. > ------------ > > Gmail gives more detail: > > Spammers can forge a message to make it look like it's sent by a real > website or company that you might trust. To help protect you from such > messages, Google tries to verify the real sender using email > authentication. > > The authentication process tries to verify the real sender by looking > at a message's authentication data. This data should be included in a > message's "signed-by" or "mailed-by" headers (shown beneath the > subject line when you look at a message's details). When the sender > doesn't include this data, we can't be sure whether or not the message > was forged. For example, a message might claim to be from a Gmail > address, but we can't confirm that claim if the message doesn't have > authentication data. > -------- > > This may be an Exi list problem if the authentication data is removed > or scrambled before forwarding to the list. > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 12 21:37:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:37:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> Message-ID: dave - Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers? Above average IQ, how much does intelligence help solve problems? Seems like other factors like curiosity, persistence, knowledge, creativity, charisma, etc., play significant roles in solving real-world problems, but we don't ponder supercreative AIs or fear supercharismatic AIs (which we probably should, if such a thing is possible). ?Many psychologists are now trying to make the case for social IQ and Emotional IQ as equally important or even more so. And that now cliche' - ability to postpone rewards. ?High IQ people can solve the kinds of problems that are administered in IQ tests - duh. I don't know how many hits you would get if you tried to find all the studies on IQ and what it correlates with, but I'd guess tens of thousands. What they typically find is that IQ is related to darn near everything, but is only a part of the picture. I think of IQ, as measured by the usual tests, as the enabler. If you have a high one, there are things you can learn that people with lower scores cannot, or do so with much greater difficulty or only understand the thing at a lower level, perhaps less abstract. For IQ* not?* *?* *? *to relate to solving some problem, you are saying that mentally retarded people can do as well or better than average or above people.*? *And I'll give you one: Two choice problem: A or B. Reward is, say, an M and M. Make choice A rewards 60% of the time and B at 40%. After a while the Ss figure out the payoff ratio. What the normals do is called probability matching. They choose A about 60% of the time and B about 40%. The MR Ss choose A all the time, and thus get more rewards than the normals do. Go figure. bill w On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:22 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> On Jul 12, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Dave Sill wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jul 9, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> >>> Superintelligence: high, moderate, high: 18 >> >> >> Maybe my own sub-super intelligence is the problem, but I don't >> understand why superintelligence is considered important. AI/singularity >> fans seem to consider it practically a superpower, but I think it's >> overrated. Am I wrong? >> >> >> In practical terms, then of it as a super-problem-solver. You have it (or >> them) and if they are benign you can much more easily solve much of the >> other problems. Or so the story goes. >> > > Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers? Above average > IQ, how much does intelligence help solve problems? Seems like other > factors like curiosity, persistence, knowledge, creativity, charisma, etc., > play significant roles in solving real-world problems, but we don't ponder > supercreative AIs or fear supercharismatic AIs (which we probably should, > if such a thing is possible). > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Jul 12 23:35:06 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:35:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] pokemon go further Message-ID: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> OK cool, so now I get to be the local hipster for the first time. My son plays this new game, PokemonGo and loves it. Yesterday at the local park we saw a couple dozen players and could easily tell what they were doing. This game gets partway there to something I have been anticipating for a long time: some kind of virtual reality in which characters or something is superimposed on the scene to create a VR. What I am thinking of now is the next step. PokemonGo has feedback in a crude sense: it reacts to where the player is located. But using a cell phone, it looks like we have everything we need to do image-recognition feedback loops. An example I have used before to describe this is in repairing the secondary gear case of a Suzuki Cavalcade. Since we know exactly what that gear case looks like, the image recognition task is limited to a workable scale. When a phone is held about a meter from that gearcase, the software would recognize it and point to the four bolts which must be removed to get to the next step. It could tell you the size wrench needed, the torque value on reassembly, etc. Have we any image-recognition gurus or semi-hipsters among us who can comment on how difficult is this problem? I am thinking of a very limited, closed-ended image recognition subroutine which would recognize the outline of a known quantity, such as a specific motorcycle part. Software can recognize faces; this seems trivially easy in comparison. It seems like just a scale and rotate problem to get what the camera sees to match what it is looking for. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 00:11:51 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:11:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] pokemon go further In-Reply-To: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> References: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2016 4:49 PM, "spike" wrote: > This game gets partway there to something I have been anticipating for a long time: some kind of virtual reality in which characters or something is superimposed on the scene to create a VR. It's called "augmented reality". People have been playing with it for decades, though this seems to be the most widespread single app deployment so far, by a wide margin. > An example I have used before to describe this is in repairing the secondary gear case of a Suzuki Cavalcade. Since we know exactly what that gear case looks like, the image recognition task is limited to a workable scale. When a phone is held about a meter from that gearcase, the software would recognize it and point to the four bolts which must be removed to get to the next step. It could tell you the size wrench needed, the torque value on reassembly, etc. > > Have we any image-recognition gurus or semi-hipsters among us who can comment on how difficult is this problem? I am thinking of a very limited, closed-ended image recognition subroutine which would recognize the outline of a known quantity, such as a specific motorcycle part. Software can recognize faces; this seems trivially easy in comparison. It seems like just a scale and rotate problem to get what the camera sees to match what it is looking for. This is the Maintenance Aid Computer concept that Boeing attempted to deploy (with special goggles and gloves) for aircraft in the '90s. It would probably be possible to walk people through certain specific repairs. The challenge might be more in building up a sufficient library of repairs (which is more laborious than inventive, since you have to code up one repair, then the next, and so on...unless you came up with good tools to add to the library too) to be more useful than a gimmick. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Tue Jul 12 20:36:53 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:36:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014149d8-6542-a381-76ea-75469e1679db@aleph.se> In Sweden there has been six referendums. Of these, the results of three or four have been overruled. The prohibition referendum in 1922 rejected prohibition, but a very strict alcohol policy was enacted. The 1955 referendum on changing to right-hand traffic was against switching, but in 1967 a switch was made anyway. The pensions system referendum 1957 is disputed: alternative 1 got the most votes (and was enacted) but was a minority compared to 2 & 3. The nuclear power referendum 1980 led to the outcome that nuclear power would be phased out by 2010; this has not happened, although technically it was just a decision to phase it out as early as economically feasible. The point here is that often politics allow a fair bit of leeway in interpreting the result, especially if there is plenty of time. In the UK there is a legal challenge underway arguing that brexit has to be an act of parliament (where the MPs are mostly against it); whether this can fly depends on complex issues of constitutional law. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From giulioprisco at protonmail.ch Wed Jul 13 09:52:24 2016 From: giulioprisco at protonmail.ch (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:52:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1R8VrdQqCqGxwIo5oSGrzN1gXfRrFUOcTPPZzNxUWasep7WjmaFqg-14jQuuz8ix6_ZRHTx_zDe4U94_xwJxVA==@protonmail.ch> Did this message come through? -- Giulio Prisco http://giulioprisco.com/ giulioprisco at protonmail.ch -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [ExI] brexit quick question Local Time: July 12, 2016 7:35 PM UTC Time: July 12, 2016 5:35 PM From: pharos at gmail.com To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org On 12 July 2016 at 17:37, Giulio Prisco wrote: > This is my understanding as well, but ignoring the results of the referendum > would really be a slap in the face of democracy, as British politicians of > both camps have noted. The people would completely lose faith in the > democratic process, which is the worse possible outcome. > > -- > Giulio Prisco > giulioprisco at protonmail.ch > Gmail put your message in my Spam folder. Reason: Why is this message in Spam? It has a from address in protonmail.ch but has failed protonmail.ch's required tests for authentication. ------------ Gmail gives more detail: Spammers can forge a message to make it look like it's sent by a real website or company that you might trust. To help protect you from such messages, Google tries to verify the real sender using email authentication. The authentication process tries to verify the real sender by looking at a message's authentication data. This data should be included in a message's "signed-by" or "mailed-by" headers (shown beneath the subject line when you look at a message's details). When the sender doesn't include this data, we can't be sure whether or not the message was forged. For example, a message might claim to be from a Gmail address, but we can't confirm that claim if the message doesn't have authentication data. -------- This may be an Exi list problem if the authentication data is removed or scrambled before forwarding to the list. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 12:02:33 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:02:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 5:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > For IQ* not?* > *?* > *? *to relate to solving some problem, you are saying that mentally > retarded people can do as well or better than average or above people. > I asked "Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers?", I didn't say intelligence isn't a factor in problem solving. I was challenging the assertion that achieving superintelligence is a very important goal and the apparent belief that it enables solving otherwise unsolvable problems. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Jul 13 17:14:55 2016 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 10:14:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> Message-ID: <238FD36A-C32A-4030-9417-0EED5C7B87C3@taramayastales.com> I think you make a good point, Dave. From the point of view of improving the human condition, it would probably make more sense to help all current human brains work at their full potential and get ?online? (not just literally on the internet but into a true working network with many other brains in stable social systems) than it would be to make current brains super-intelligent. But finding a way to improve our own personal intelligence and the intelligence of our own offspring is always going to be a real priority for individuals. Because the fact is, we are competing with other even as we are cooperating with them. Yes, we benefit by being around people who are intelligent, even more intelligent than ourselves. But if we can get that little edge over other brains, we also benefit in that social competition for jobs and mates and prestige. Tara Maya > On Jul 13, 2016, at 5:02 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 5:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > For IQ not??? to relate to solving some problem, you are saying that mentally retarded people can do as well or better than average or above people. > > I asked "Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers?", I didn't say intelligence isn't a factor in problem solving. I was challenging the assertion that achieving superintelligence is a very important goal and the apparent belief that it enables solving otherwise unsolvable problems. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Jul 14 00:09:34 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 01:09:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> Message-ID: <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> On 2016-07-11 00:57, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Cosmopolitanism is a form of humanism. As a humanist I feel a > connection with all people, not just my tribe and its beliefs. Which > brings up patriotism. Long ago I encountered the idea that > intellectuals were more faithful to ideas than to places or > governments or their tribe. That means, and studies show, that > liberals like me are less patriotic than conservatives. Haidt seems > to regard this as moral weakness. I do not. Exactly. I find patriotism downright disturbing - when people wave flags, I half expect them to start a lynch mob. I tend to trust people who wave around ideas (although I know that sometimes that makes them even more dangerous). Of course, there is also the problem that a lot of cosmopolitans are actually just a bit western internationalist, as Ross Doutat pointed out: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-cosmopolitanism.html?_r=0 I am deeply annoyed that I recognize myself so much in his description - I want to be a *proper* cosmopolist rather than just in the internationalist tribe. > > Do I support my country's government? Depends on what they are up to. > > (People who are at Kohlberg's stage 5 or 6 can make difficult > citizens, who don't shut up and do what they are told). Exactly. And that is why they are necessary for the functioning of societies. Without them even an open society will stagnate. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 03:35:45 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 20:35:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: <1R8VrdQqCqGxwIo5oSGrzN1gXfRrFUOcTPPZzNxUWasep7WjmaFqg-14jQuuz8ix6_ZRHTx_zDe4U94_xwJxVA==@protonmail.ch> References: <1R8VrdQqCqGxwIo5oSGrzN1gXfRrFUOcTPPZzNxUWasep7WjmaFqg-14jQuuz8ix6_ZRHTx_zDe4U94_xwJxVA==@protonmail.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 2:52 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Did this message come through? > Yes, but it got marked as spam by GMail. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 04:32:09 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 14:32:09 +1000 Subject: [ExI] brexit quick question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 July 2016 at 03:48, BillK wrote: > On 12 July 2016 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Nowhere do I see where the referendum is legally binding, so > theoretically > > you could have another one, no? Or maybe Parliament could simply not > obey > > it. > > > > Strictly speaking the EU referendum is not legally binding. In the UK, > Parliament makes the laws. > > But the Prime Minister (Cameron) called the referendum because he > claimed that it was too big a decision for Parliament to decide by > itself without asking the people to vote. (The UK joining the EU was > also voted on in a referendum in 1975). > > So, on this issue Parliament sees itself as rubber-stamping the > decision of the people. > > There would be political chaos if Parliament decided to ignore the > expressed will of the people. What if the will of the people changed, because many of those who voted to leave the EU either didn't think it would really happen or didn't anticipate the consequences? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Wed Jul 13 21:11:16 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 22:11:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are among the world's most important problems to solve, why? In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <32680DDD-0AF5-4EE4-AE89-5444E3C56542@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015c5294-ec8b-fd13-79ab-9b4384800fec@aleph.se> On 2016-07-13 13:02, Dave Sill wrote: > I asked "Are the most intelligent people the best problem solvers?", I > didn't say intelligence isn't a factor in problem solving. I was > challenging the assertion that achieving superintelligence is a very > important goal and the apparent belief that it enables solving > otherwise unsolvable problems. Yes, that is the underlying thought for much of the superintelligence debate. Typically the starting point is an intelligence definition along the lines of Shane Legg's "intelligence is the ability to efficiently figure out how to achieve desired goals in general environment" (see his thesis for the mathematical statement, which is a bit stricter). So an entity better able to achieve its goals than humans in general will in general achieve its aims more successfully. [ There are of course plenty of particular imaginable cases where the superintelligence doesn't want anything or wants to solve unsolvable problems, is in a situation where it cannot do anything useful (like falling down an elevator shaft), or it is simply unlucky despite its brilliant plan. There are also worlds where intelligence is not useful at all, and the no free lunch theorems, but those considerations rarely matter in practice in this world. ] The "superintelligence is a superpower" thesis is based on the observation that human problem-solving has produced pretty impressive/world transforming results. In many competitive domains an entity that is better at achieving its goals than another entity will tend to win. Economically we know there is a premium for smart, skilled problem solvers. Note that we do not have to assume godlike superintelligence for it to be extremely useful/good business/able to mess up the world. Intelligence explosions are entirely optional. Assuming it to be better in any domain is also a simplifying trick; clearly superintelligence specialized to smaller domains may be worth a lot too. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 14:10:16 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 07:10:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from another list Message-ID: ?I am not sure the global warming?CO2 theories are 100% right either? Neither am I. However, ending/reversing the build up of CO2 in the context of really inexpensive and practically unlimited energy can?t hurt. Last few days I have been at a really upbeat conference on research at the ISS with speakers such as Peter Diamandis. http://www.issconference.org/ The general thrust of people such as Peter is that Moore?s law will save us. The difficulty is that we are not shrinking humans and their impact on the environment like we have been shrinking features on silicon. Still, it?s been a most productive conference. I met a person from the Office of Management and Budget. Asked what it would be worth to stop and reverse the buildup of CO2 without causing a depression from high energy prices. ?A lot,? and we discussed ways to start funding the project. Also, last night, a small group of us decided to go after this https://www.macfound.org/press/press-releases/new-macarthur-competition-award-100-million-help-solve-critical-social-problem/ Regardless of the outcome, getting the concept of low cost energy from space critically esamined can?t hurt. On a negative note, PV is black. The part of sunlight not turned into electric power heats the cells and the air around them, the rest degrades to heat at the end of the power lines. Paving large parts of the world?s deserts with PV is going to warm up the earth, exactly how much is under discussion. Keith From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 15:52:31 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:52:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] from another list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14 July 2016 at 15:10, Keith Henson wrote: > On a negative note, PV is black. The part of sunlight not turned into > electric power heats the cells and the air around them, the rest > degrades to heat at the end of the power lines. Paving large parts of > the world?s deserts with PV is going to warm up the earth, exactly how > much is under discussion. > A new report is worried about the shade of PV panels cooling the ground below and points toward shade-loving plants being required. Quote: According to the paper published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, the microclimate around the bank of photovoltaic panels studied near Swindon in the UK changed by as much as 5 degrees Celsius, depending on the season. While this might seem like an obvious side effect of creating a big field of artificial shade, the researchers from Lancaster University and the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology are concerned about the impact on the plants and soil underneath all those solar panels. ------------ BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:17:01 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 11:17:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2016-07-11 00:57, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Cosmopolitanism is a form of humanism. As a humanist I feel a connection > with all people, not just my tribe and its beliefs. Which brings up > patriotism. Long ago I encountered the idea that intellectuals were more > faithful to ideas than to places or governments or their tribe. That > means, and studies show, that liberals like me are less patriotic than > conservatives. Haidt seems to regard this as moral weakness. I do not. > > > Exactly. I find patriotism downright disturbing - when people wave flags, > I half expect them to start a lynch mob. I tend to trust people who wave > around ideas (although I know that sometimes that makes them even more > dangerous). > > Of course, there is also the problem that a lot of cosmopolitans are > actually just a bit western internationalist, as Ross Doutat pointed out: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-cosmopolitanism.html?_r=0 > I am deeply annoyed that I recognize myself so much in his description - I > want to be a *proper* cosmopolist rather than just in the internationalist > tribe. > > Do I support my country's government? Depends on what they are up to. > > (People who are at Kohlberg's stage 5 or 6 can make difficult citizens, > who don't shut up and do what they are told). > > > Exactly. And that is why they are necessary for the functioning of > societies. Without them even an open society will stagnate. > > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > Response to Douhat: ?Judith Rich Harris, in No Two Alike, and other writings, proves to me that most of what children become is due more to their peers than to their family. This is precisely the reason I would not, as Douhat seems to recommend, send my children to a majority-minority school. To be egalitarian, as a cosmopolitan must, does not meant that we must love everyone or think of them as intellectual or cultural equals. We think of others as sharing our rights and privileges, and so on. We see that they are different and should not have to be like us to be accepted. But around here, going to local schools would mean low level minorities who do not share our culture at all. Parents, mostly the males, mostly absent?; relatives in prison; sexual culture involving children of 8 o 9 having routine sex; girls of 12 or even less getting pregnant. Do any of us want an environment like that for our kids? ?When I went to LSU and got housed with a bunch of Cajuns, I found myself talking like them in a few weeks. Some things are picked up very rapidly. If the above means that I am not truly cosmopolitan, then so be it. I have to doubt that anyone can be fully accepting of other cultures. Some will just seem weird, and others just not the way we want ourselves and our families to live. Douhat is right and wrong at the same time. I have no problem seeing the intellectual elite as a tribe, as long as my tribe is not insular or dismissive of others or afraid of them. My tribe shares the ideal of, for example, double blind studies as best in many researches, a standard not shared by some other tribes, or maybe not even understandable to some. Egalitarian does not mean equal in all things. And some things in some cultures, including our own, can be just wrong. bill w ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 16:59:53 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 11:59:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] fake food Message-ID: http://nypost.com/2016/07/10/the-truth-behind-how-were-scammed-into-eating-phony-food/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits Walmart surprises me! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 14 17:59:52 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2016 13:59:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] fake food In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:59 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > http://nypost.com/2016/07/10/the-truth-behind-how-were-scammed-into-eating-phony-food/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits > On the one hand, that's the typical, sensationalist, author-pushing-his-new-scary-book piece you'd expect from The Post. On the other hand, a lot of the scary stuff is true. Stuff like: *Unless your go-to sushi joint is Masa or Nobu, you?re not getting the sushi you ordered, ever, anywhere, and that includes your regular sushi restaurant where you can?t imagine them doing such a thing, Olmsted says.* *Most of us, Olmsted writes, have never actually tasted real olive oil.* Is at least hyperbolic if not outright false. Caveat emptor. Grow and prepare as much of your food as you can. Buy from local farmers you trust. Know which food labels have meaning and which are pure BS. Etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Jul 15 07:36:17 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 08:36:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 2016-07-14 17:17, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Douhat is right and wrong at the same time. I have no problem seeing > the intellectual elite as a tribe, as long as my tribe is not insular > or dismissive of others or afraid of them. My tribe shares the ideal > of, for example, double blind studies as best in many researches, a > standard not shared by some other tribes, or maybe not even > understandable to some. Egalitarian does not mean equal in all things. > > And some things in some cultures, including our own, can be just wrong. I don't think Doutat claims every culture is as good as every other culture. Rather, that real cosmopolitanism means moving out of one's comfort zone and experiencing other cultures through interaction. I am very comfortable dealing with fellow academics, no matter from where: they are actually quite similar to me, even if they are Argentinian psychoanalysts or Chinese economists: there is a globalized academic culture that helps us interact (and maybe allows us to focus on research issues rather than each other's strangeness). Maybe I am missing some radically different academic cultures from Subsaharan Africa, Arabia or Mongolia, but I doubt it: it is an internationalized culture and to a degree a tribal affiliation. But trying to explain some of our stuff to a politician... ugh. Suddenly there is a barrier in culture, mental toolkit, and sometimes tribal affiliation. I found it easier to deal with Japanese senior civil servants than a Swedish politician. Yet interacting with the politician may have given me more cultural understanding than the chats with the Chinese economist. David Brin suggested that the unique aspect of Western culture was not just fascination by other cultures (that can be found elsewhere) but a deeply ingrained idea that other cultures might have figured out things we haven't, might have better solutions we ought to pick up on, or that we need to reinvent ourselves to avoid being bad. This is very unique (and not even particularly popular inside our culture). I think it is tremendously important, a key reason we got not just modern science and technology but also significant moral improvement (from abolition to human rights frameworks to gay rights) and transhumanism from this culture. This memeplex of "we could be different" is to be cherished and protected. Being cosmopolitan does not mean one becomes relativist, but rather that one has enough experience in the world that one becomes a connoisseur of ideas, life patterns and alternatives. This might be why I am not entirely happy with just being pretty good at networking within a large chunk of global civilization: I want to be able to network with the rest of it too. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 11:41:53 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 07:41:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > On 2016-07-14 17:17, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Douhat is ... > > I don't think Doutat ... > OK, enough, guys, it's Douthat. :-) -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From outlawpoet at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 16:10:05 2016 From: outlawpoet at gmail.com (justin corwin) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 09:10:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] pokemon go further In-Reply-To: References: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> Message-ID: Lockheed Martin is experimenting with technology from NGRAIN for this purpose in the F-35 assembly line(which may not be the best example, given the cost overruns associated with that program). NGRAIN was using Epson Moverios(head mounted displays with sensors) early last year, but they may have moved to a new platform like HoloLens. They have an Android public demo you can find here: http://www.ngrain.com/products/android-viewer/ As Adrian alluded to above, this is more about the scut work to characterize and library all the necessary procedures and objects in sufficient detail, the sensors and cv is probably up to the task (although as the number of objects possible to recognize between goes up, errors go up as well, unless intelligent error correction and pruning is used). On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Jul 12, 2016 4:49 PM, "spike" wrote: > > This game gets partway there to something I have been anticipating for a > long time: some kind of virtual reality in which characters or something is > superimposed on the scene to create a VR. > > It's called "augmented reality". People have been playing with it for > decades, though this seems to be the most widespread single app deployment > so far, by a wide margin. > > > An example I have used before to describe this is in repairing the > secondary gear case of a Suzuki Cavalcade. Since we know exactly what that > gear case looks like, the image recognition task is limited to a workable > scale. When a phone is held about a meter from that gearcase, the software > would recognize it and point to the four bolts which must be removed to get > to the next step. It could tell you the size wrench needed, the torque > value on reassembly, etc. > > > > Have we any image-recognition gurus or semi-hipsters among us who can > comment on how difficult is this problem? I am thinking of a very limited, > closed-ended image recognition subroutine which would recognize the outline > of a known quantity, such as a specific motorcycle part. Software can > recognize faces; this seems trivially easy in comparison. It seems like > just a scale and rotate problem to get what the camera sees to match what > it is looking for. > > This is the Maintenance Aid Computer concept that Boeing attempted to > deploy (with special goggles and gloves) for aircraft in the '90s. It > would probably be possible to walk people through certain specific > repairs. The challenge might be more in building up a sufficient library > of repairs (which is more laborious than inventive, since you have to code > up one repair, then the next, and so on...unless you came up with good > tools to add to the library too) to be more useful than a gimmick. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Justin Corwin outlawpoet at gmail.com http://programmaticconquest.tumblr.com http://outlawpoet.tumblr.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 16:23:53 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:23:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] pokemon go further In-Reply-To: References: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:10 PM, justin corwin wrote: > As Adrian alluded to above, this is more about the scut work to > characterize and library all the necessary procedures and objects in > sufficient detail... > Which is ripe for crowdsourcing, of course. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 16:38:26 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:38:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: Thanks Dave. David Brin suggested that the unique aspect of Western culture was not just fascination by other cultures (that can be found elsewhere) but a deeply ingrained idea that other cultures might have figured out things we haven't, might have better solutions we ought to pick up on, or that we need to reinvent ourselves to avoid being bad. anders Speaking only for the USA, yes, we are fascinated by other cultures and often, very often, we assume that they are better than we are at certain things. Culture is one of them. All you have to do is put your ad or product name in French and it sells to us ignorant natives. We think that's exotic. And not only the French. Does any other culture think of us as exotic? We have covered the world with pop music and movies. Maybe we're just cool. Not a bad thing to lead the world in. I don't know that Anders is correct re science and technology, or form of government. I think we think that we have the best there. I also very much doubt that most of us feel inferior in the moral department (being bad). But we are, I think, the most open culture you can find. You world travelers can contradict that maybe. Maybe we feel inferior in haute couture (note language used by us here). Not so much fashion, but classical music and art and philosophy. The European tradition there is powerful. Bottom line: I don't think Brin is mostly correct and I'd like to read more about what he says, or how Anders thinks about it. bill w On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 6:41 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > >> On 2016-07-14 17:17, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> Douhat is ... >> >> I don't think Doutat ... >> > > OK, enough, guys, it's Douthat. :-) > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 17:03:58 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 13:03:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:38 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Does any other culture think of us as exotic? Yes, definitely. A lot of Germans are ga-ga about the romanticized Wild West, for example. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 18:21:17 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 13:21:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:38 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Does any other culture think of us as exotic? > > > Yes, definitely. A lot of Germans are ga-ga about the romanticized Wild > West, for example. > > -Dave > ?Yes. We had two Germans stay with us back in the 80s and the first thing > they wanted was to find a cowboy and Indian store, which, amazingly, we had > and it was going out of business. They were ecstatic. As you know, all of > that was 99% made up by Hollywood, or at least exaggerated a great deal. > If you went back, say, 150 years and asked people, they would be stunned > that cowboys would be the heroes of thousands of movies. "Those dirty, > illiterate, profane bums? Really?" > ?Did it ever strike any of us that the vast majority of humans prefer to live their lives in fantasy? Movies, fiction, TV, video games, even telephone games, take up an enormous percentage of our lives? I am no different with my books and music. Just what is wrong with reality? It was the Jews, wasn't it, that invented fiction? Or at least among the first to write it down? bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Jul 15 17:24:43 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 18:24:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: <8b1c42d9-5259-2fba-5eba-6c231c943c6a@aleph.se> On 2016-07-15 17:38, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > David Brin suggested that the unique aspect of Western culture was not > just fascination by other cultures (that can be found elsewhere) but a > deeply ingrained idea that other cultures might have figured out > things we haven't, might have better solutions we ought to pick up on, > or that we need to reinvent ourselves to avoid being bad. anders > > Speaking only for the USA, yes, we are fascinated by other cultures > and often, very often, we assume that they are better than we are at > certain things. ... > > I don't know that Anders is correct re science and technology, or form > of government. I think we think that we have the best there. I also > very much doubt that most of us feel inferior in the moral department > (being bad). You think too small. Think western culture, where US culture is one of the offshoots. Most cultures have been a bit curious about exotic things - upper class Romans threw around Greek quotes to show their erudition, and paid fortunes for silk and other products from near-mythical Sinica. But they would never have entertained the thought that those cultures had anything to teach them in statemanship: Romans were the best, manifesto. Same thing over in China: lots of myths about the exotic Occident, but there is nothing truly important to learn from it. Sure, some cool art and tech, but living like *them*?! Outrageous! The Romans would completely have agreed. So would nearly all societies across time and space. Brin's excellent essay can be read here: http://www.davidbrin.com/dogmaofotherness.html His claim is that there is a set of interlocking beliefs and behaviors in our culture. One is that there must be no dogmas. Another that no expert can know all the answers. The Dogma of Otherness insists that all voices deserve a hearing, that all points of view have something of value to offer. He claims it might be a liberal Western, even American doctrine. I think it goes deeper; Brin suggests that maybe the Copernican principle of mediocrity might have been the start, but Bruno got there first in a way. He argues that the otherness doctrine came as a reaction to the religious, mechanistic and romantic worldviews, which I think is half right - it became so powerful thanks to their failures. Yet it builds on a base of skepticism and universalism going back to the Greeks (humans are social animals with a common nature) and Christianity (and they have the same kind of souls - all the rest is contingent), the renaissance/enlightenment/liberal discovery that people in different cultures actually thought differently and that different life projects could be valid (and should be protected). Note that this is not a claim that every western person believes certain things. Rather, it is a claim that there are certain ideas that are as pervasive in our world as machismo or reverence for the family in other cultures. We don't notice it because we are embedded in it (although it is notable that western culture invented professional anthropology to study other cultures, and then began to turn the critical anthropological eye on itself). Note the link to our kind of cosmopolitanism: an interest in exploring and interacting with the Other (not just other cultures these days, but nature and maybe also different mental states), the willingness to see if the Other has something of value or can show that we are wrong about something. This in turn requires tolerance and open societies: without them it is not possible to actually meet the Other or update ones own society in the light of the new information. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 20:00:38 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 15:00:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <8b1c42d9-5259-2fba-5eba-6c231c943c6a@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> <8b1c42d9-5259-2fba-5eba-6c231c943c6a@aleph.se> Message-ID: anders - Bruno got there first in a way. Yes, he did. I've read about old Giordano. So sad. Great good comes out of great evil. The Roman church was so evil that it finally shook up the Western world so badly that it failed (and is still failing, though pretty powerful at that). The Reformation is still going on, and needs to be. The Renaissance it spurred could not have happened unless that church had been so corrupt. (will take opinions from those who know more history than I do - that is, probably most of you - my taste in history runs to Jacques Barzun). But that there is some validity to all points of view is silly. Listen to them, yes. I would listen to Flat-earthers just to study their minds, not their views. But again, many too liberal Eastern profs seem to take it seriously that all cultures are equal in importance, which is sheer hogwash - sheep dip. Re Principle of Mediocrity - Is there anyone anywhere who would argue that today is not the best of times? Look at knowledge and our ability to communicate it to others in terms of raising food, health care and many many others. We are the best and it has been Western civilization that has gotten us to this point. I argue that we are unique in history and while we have raised mammoth problems along with our solutions, nobody would go back even one year to where something is better. Not when the ability to cure something seems to happen every day. And maybe all of this would not have happened, or happened much more slowly had not the Roman church been so bad. As Bruno, among others, showed us. bill w On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:24 PM, Anders wrote: > On 2016-07-15 17:38, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > David Brin suggested that the unique aspect of Western culture was not > just fascination by other cultures (that can be found elsewhere) but a > deeply ingrained idea that other cultures might have figured out things we > haven't, might have better solutions we ought to pick up on, or that we > need to reinvent ourselves to avoid being bad. anders > > Speaking only for the USA, yes, we are fascinated by other cultures and > often, very often, we assume that they are better than we are at certain > things. ... > > I don't know that Anders is correct re science and technology, or form of > government. I think we think that we have the best there. I also very > much doubt that most of us feel inferior in the moral department (being > bad). > > > You think too small. Think western culture, where US culture is one of the > offshoots. > > Most cultures have been a bit curious about exotic things - upper class > Romans threw around Greek quotes to show their erudition, and paid fortunes > for silk and other products from near-mythical Sinica. But they would never > have entertained the thought that those cultures had anything to teach them > in statemanship: Romans were the best, manifesto. Same thing over in China: > lots of myths about the exotic Occident, but there is nothing truly > important to learn from it. Sure, some cool art and tech, but living like > *them*?! Outrageous! The Romans would completely have agreed. So would > nearly all societies across time and space. > > Brin's excellent essay can be read here: > http://www.davidbrin.com/dogmaofotherness.html > His claim is that there is a set of interlocking beliefs and behaviors in > our culture. One is that there must be no dogmas. Another that no expert > can know all the answers. The Dogma of Otherness insists that all voices > deserve a hearing, that all points of view have something of value to offer. > > He claims it might be a liberal Western, even American doctrine. I think > it goes deeper; Brin suggests that maybe the Copernican principle of > mediocrity might have been the start, but Bruno got there first in a way. > He argues that the otherness doctrine came as a reaction to the religious, > mechanistic and romantic worldviews, which I think is half right - it > became so powerful thanks to their failures. Yet it builds on a base of > skepticism and universalism going back to the Greeks (humans are social > animals with a common nature) and Christianity (and they have the same kind > of souls - all the rest is contingent), the > renaissance/enlightenment/liberal discovery that people in different > cultures actually thought differently and that different life projects > could be valid (and should be protected). > > Note that this is not a claim that every western person believes certain > things. Rather, it is a claim that there are certain ideas that are as > pervasive in our world as machismo or reverence for the family in other > cultures. We don't notice it because we are embedded in it (although it is > notable that western culture invented professional anthropology to study > other cultures, and then began to turn the critical anthropological eye on > itself). > > Note the link to our kind of cosmopolitanism: an interest in exploring and > interacting with the Other (not just other cultures these days, but nature > and maybe also different mental states), the willingness to see if the > Other has something of value or can show that we are wrong about something. > This in turn requires tolerance and open societies: without them it is not > possible to actually meet the Other or update ones own society in the light > of the new information. > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 22:35:28 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 15:35:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2016 4:43 AM, "Dave Sill" wrote: > On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 3:36 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> On 2016-07-14 17:17, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>> Douhat is ... >> >> I don't think Doutat ... > > OK, enough, guys, it's Douthat. :-) You don't Doubthat? ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 15 22:37:48 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 15:37:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] pokemon go further In-Reply-To: References: <018c01d1dc96$05c58190$115084b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <019001d1dee9$84cb3070$8e619150$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of justin corwin Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 9:10 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] pokemon go further >?Lockheed Martin is experimenting with technology from NGRAIN for this purpose in the F-35 assembly line(which may not be the best example, given the cost overruns associated with that program)? -- Justin Corwin Justin, the F-35 program was a poster child for mission creep. If the requirements change, then cost overruns are the result. Any fighter plane developed during peacetime will naturally see massive cost overruns from mission creep and changing specifications. The development phase on this program lasted over 20 years, depending on how you measure it. Consider the changes we have seen in the past 20 years. Try to imagine creating a state-of-the-art fighter plane when the design phase spans that much time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Jul 15 23:45:32 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:45:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cosmopolitanism, collective epistemology and other issues In-Reply-To: <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> References: <8acbfa48-9e79-447b-cf21-51382c8d1823@aleph.se> <0e0fa2b4-362d-e903-6736-03fac3688f62@aleph.se> <6c6793f5-826d-2d41-b310-ef3fd92c89de@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: Exactly. I find patriotism downright disturbing - when people wave flags, I > half expect them to start a lynch mob. I tend to trust people who wave > around ideas (although I know that sometimes that makes them even more > dangerous). > ### While I share your unease when confronted by masses of people acting in unison (except for symphonic orchestras), I would pause before passing judgment and look at what kind of flags they are weaving. British flags don't scare me, except maybe in the context of a soccer match. Patriotism is not hatred of the other, it's love of your own. Sure, if you love some people a lot there is less love left for others but it does not imply a willingness to go out of your way to harm them. Xenophobia and chauvinism on the other hand, do. A poster example of a xenophobic, violent ideology is orthodox Islam, which would have both you and I lynched, if it ever invaded our society. By all means, if you see an unruly mob waving a green or black flag of the prophet, I advise you to run, and this is not hyperbole. --------------------- > > Of course, there is also the problem that a lot of cosmopolitans are > actually just a bit western internationalist, as Ross Doutat pointed out: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-cosmopolitanism.html?_r=0 > I am deeply annoyed that I recognize myself so much in his description - I > want to be a *proper* cosmopolist rather than just in the internationalist > tribe. > ### If cosmopolitanism were defined by valuing inferior cultures as equal to the Western civilization, then I am not cosmopolitan, despite holding two passports, speaking 4 languages and living thousands of miles and thousands of memes away from where I was born. It is up to every individual to make the right choices, if needed defying and rejecting his native culture. A true cosmopolitan is someone who strives to join the common human effort to build a better future but this clearly includes discarding lesser visions. So don't worry, Anders, you *are* a true cosmopolitan :) Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 04:02:25 2016 From: kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com (Kevin George Haskell) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 00:02:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia Message-ID: There once was a technological warrior-King of freedom with the initials MM. Was he cucked into silence by an SJW, was he threatened by the government, did business interests tamp him down, or was it magic, but I ask for all of us who once listened to him, will you rise to be a King again, or must Extropianism be continue to be forced to listen on the private list-serv list to wild-eyed leftists who would be better served posting articles on IEET, etc.? The Technolibertarian group set up to take MM's empty,place is now run by government anti-free-speech hacks. When will MM create a place on the Internet of pure freedom where it once existed, or has his place as freedom leader King now gone? From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 12:55:11 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:55:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Kevin George Haskell wrote: > must Extropianism be continue to be forced to listen on the private > list-serv list to wild-eyed leftists who would be better served posting > articles on IEET, etc.? ### Far from defending wild-eyed leftists, the kind that share their musings on the desirability of a 90% income tax on the productive people they envy, I must admit that leftists do have a use (as long as they are present in limited numbers): They offer opportunities for ruthless dissection, righteous indignation and sharpening one's ravaging rhetoric. Let's have one small cheer for the leftists, who provide so much picturesque variety! Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:17:57 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:17:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: ?> ? > Let's have one small cheer for the leftists, who provide so much > picturesque variety! > ?Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump ?and his radical anti free trade policy. ?Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump and want to weaken free speech with much stronger anti libel laws and by declaring pornography a national public health menace. ?Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump and his anti scientific views such as smoking is healthy but getting vaccinated is unhealthy. ? ?Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump and think people shouldn't have to pay their bills. Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump ?and want to make embryonic stem cell research ? illegal as well as abortion even if the fetus has massive malformations. ? ?Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump and want to encourage Germany, South Korea, Japan ?,? ?Taiwan and ? Saudi Arabia ? develop nuclear weapons.? Like the leftists ? who support Donald Trump ?and his order to the military to kill the children of suspected terrorists and to torture people in ways that were "a hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" even though the Joint Chiefs of Staff ? say they would flat out disobey such a presidential order setting up the worst confrontation between civil and military authority since the Civil War. Neither the right nor the left has a monopoly on the *STUPID*. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:25:49 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:25:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neither the right nor the left has a monopoly on the *STUPID*. John K Clark ? Way to go, John. Hate to see frank stereotyping in this group. bill w On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:17 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> Let's have one small cheer for the leftists, who provide so much >> picturesque variety! >> > > ?Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump ?and his radical anti free trade policy. > ?Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump and want to weaken free speech with much > stronger anti libel laws and by declaring pornography a national public > health menace. > ?Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump and his anti scientific views such as smoking > is healthy but getting vaccinated is unhealthy. > ? > ?Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump and think people shouldn't have to pay their > bills. > Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump ?and want to make > embryonic stem cell research > ? illegal as well as abortion even if the fetus has massive malformations. > ? > ?Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump and want to encourage > Germany, South Korea, Japan > ?,? > > ?Taiwan and ? > Saudi Arabia > ? develop nuclear weapons.? > Like the > leftists > ? who support Donald Trump ?and his order to the military to kill the > children of suspected terrorists and to torture people in ways that were "a > hell of a lot worse than waterboarding" even though the > Joint Chiefs of Staff > ? say they would flat out disobey such a presidential order setting up the > worst confrontation between civil and military authority since the Civil > War. > > Neither the right nor the left has a monopoly on the *STUPID*. > > John K Clark ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:39:11 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:39:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Hate to see frank stereotyping in this group. Yeah, and we should be way past accepting the realm of political beliefs compressed into one dimension. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:47:12 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:47:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hate to see frank stereotyping in this group. > > > Yeah, and we should be way past accepting the realm of political beliefs > compressed into one dimension. > > -Dave > Precisely. ?Obviously the people on this list are aware of the authoritarian/libertarian dimension to go with the liberal/conservative one. It could be mentioned more. bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:48:59 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > Yeah, and we should be way past accepting the realm of political beliefs > compressed into one dimension. > ?Except perhaps for the smart-stupid dimension. I generally prefer the smart end of that line myself but there is no disputing matters of taste. ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 16:53:14 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 11:53:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 11:48 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > > ?> ? >> Yeah, and we should be way past accepting the realm of political beliefs >> compressed into one dimension. >> > > ?Except perhaps for the smart-stupid dimension. I generally prefer the > smart end of that line myself but there is no disputing matters of taste. > > > ?John K Clark? > ?Ah!! A third dimension! I"ll have to write Pinker and Haidt. bill w? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 17:07:44 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E058808-E6DF-4FF8-9633-188CC421B771@gmail.com> On Jul 16, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > Yeah, and we should be way past accepting the realm of political beliefs compressed into one dimension. Another way to look at this is Brian Patrick Mitchell's eight ways. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Patrick_Mitchell I haven't read his book, but I do like the breakdown into stances on archy and kratos. Not sure it captures everything relevant. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 17:33:22 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 13:33:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The smart-stupid dimension Message-ID: Libertarians on the stupid side of the smart-stupid dimension think it would be nice if the ENORMOUS and rapidly increasing gap between the rich and the poor that has occurred in every part of the world in the last few years will never cause them any problems and therefore it never will, libertarians on the smart side of that dimension think it's only a matter of time before it does cause problems and it doesn't matter if that would be nice or not. Liberals on the stupid side of the smart-stupid dimension think there would be more justice in society if intelligence has nothing to do with genetics and sexual preference has nothing to do with anything *except* genetics, so that is the way things must be. Liberals on the smart side of that dimension think genes are the way genes are and social justice has nothing to do with it. Conservatives on the stupid side of the smart-stupid dimension think it would be nice if homosexuality and pornography caused earthquakes floods and hurricanes and therefore they must, conservatives on the smart side of that dimension think the cause and effect relationship has not yet been proven. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 17:40:43 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:40:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16 July 2016 at 17:53, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Ah!! A third dimension! I"ll have to write Pinker and Haidt. bill w > One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump and Clinton. Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. Another problem is that in a democracy the 'smart' dimension is too small to be significant in the voting patterns. It's popularity that wins elections. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sat Jul 16 17:54:36 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 10:54:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01d1df8b$1ee0eb40$5ca2c1c0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia On 16 July 2016 at 17:53, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>... Ah!! A third dimension! I"ll have to write Pinker and Haidt. bill w > >...One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump and Clinton. Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. >...Another problem is that in a democracy the 'smart' dimension is too small to be significant in the voting patterns. It's popularity that wins elections. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja. In popular voting, name recognition is huge. It works even if it is someone else's name. Consider the Alvin Greene situation in 2010 where Greene took the nomination to run for senate from South Carolina. He had no money, no campaign events, did nothing but register as a candidate and have a name that plenty of voters thought was the singer Al Green. Name recognition took Greene to the nomination even though it wasn't even the same guy. spike From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 19:00:26 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 12:00:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <000c01d1df8b$1ee0eb40$5ca2c1c0$@att.net> References: <000c01d1df8b$1ee0eb40$5ca2c1c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 10:54 AM, spike wrote: > Ja. In popular voting, name recognition is huge. It works even if it is > someone else's name. Consider the Alvin Greene situation in 2010 where > Greene took the nomination to run for senate from South Carolina. He had no > money, no campaign events, did nothing but register as a candidate and have > a name that plenty of voters thought was the singer Al Green. Name > recognition took Greene to the nomination even though it wasn't even the > same guy. There are many studies that show most voters in general elections -- between 60% and 70% for the US over several decades -- basically do not cast their vote based on policy or ideology. It's more name recognition or other factors. Yes, the remainder are more policy or ideology-oriented, but they're not in the majority. So, we shouldn't be too surprised in the example you cite. :) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://www.amazon.com/Dan-Ust/e/B00J6HPX8M/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 20:19:52 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 16:19:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK wrote: ?> ? > One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump > and Clinton. > ? ? > Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. > ?Oh I think there is. It would have been nice if Clinton were smarter but there is no bottom to stupid; you can't always go smarter but you can always go stupider as Mr.Trump demonstrates. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 20:36:23 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 15:36:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh I think there is. It would have been nice if Clinton were smarter but there is no bottom to stupid; you can't always go smarter but you can always go stupider as Mr.Trump demonstrates. ? ? John K Clark? Oh, she's got the IQ. I dunno what her problem is. Queen fixation? Trump acts stupidly but has to have at least somewhat above average IQ. It's his personality that's stupid (actually it seems more anal expulsive to Freudians - enjoys shocking people). OTOH - he has gotten more votes than anyone else, so if you told him he was stupid, he'd just smile and say "Whatever works, and it's working for me." So I think we have to put the label of stupid on the voters, not him. (Actually, this violates my definition of stupid, which is knowing better but not doing better, and these voters don't know better. Or do they? Aren't we all shocked by the support of bigotry, isolationism and more?) bill w On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 3:19 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK wrote: > > ?> ? >> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump >> and Clinton. >> ? ? >> Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. >> > > ?Oh I think there is. It would have been nice if Clinton were smarter but > there is no bottom to stupid; you can't always go smarter but you can > always go stupider as Mr.Trump demonstrates. ? > > > ? John K Clark? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 20:48:09 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 21:48:09 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16 July 2016 at 21:36, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Oh, she's got the IQ. I dunno what her problem is. Queen fixation? > > Trump acts stupidly but has to have at least somewhat above average IQ. > It's his personality that's stupid (actually it seems more anal expulsive to > Freudians - enjoys shocking people). > > OTOH - he has gotten more votes than anyone else, so if you told him he was > stupid, he'd just smile and say "Whatever works, and it's working for me." > > So I think we have to put the label of stupid on the voters, not him. > Perhaps, depends on your point of view. All the terrible things you say about Trump may be correct, but the voters think voting for Clinton would be worse. It's a bit like Brexit. The more terrible possibilities the Remain side shouted about leaving the EU, the more the Brexit voters said "That's what we want!". Weird. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 16 22:18:27 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:18:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > Trump acts stupidly but has to have at least somewhat above average IQ. > ?Trump didn't blow all of daddy's money so I guess that calls for a few IQ points, enough to put his inheritance in a stock index fund or something equivalent. However anybody who claims that his area of expertise is money and yet thinks the government could default on its Treasury Bills without causing a global catastrophe can't be very swift. > ??> > OTOH - he has gotten more votes than anyone else, so if you told him he > was stupid, he'd just smile and say "Whatever works, and it's working for > me." > ?For reasons I don't entirely understand many voters want somebody as president who is just like them, they don't want somebody who is smarter than they are and Trump sounds just like they do when they're sounding off about world events at the bar after they've had a few beers. And for some people being an equal doesn't go far enough. Anti-intellectualism has a long history in the USA and some people feel most comfortable voting for a presidential candidate who is even dumber than they are. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 00:57:05 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 17:57:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders in Science magazine Message-ID: It's always fun to see someone I know quoted in a major news source. Anders is quoted in the article that goes with the cover story in the July 15 issue of Science! Sorry if someone beat me to this good news. What with the ISSR&D conference and hot discussion on power satellite economics I am way behind. -- Best wishes, Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 01:20:50 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2016 21:20:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK wrote: > > One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump > and Clinton. > Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. ### This is a very good way of saying it! Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 17 08:23:28 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:23:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anders in Science magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-07-17 01:57, Keith Henson wrote: > It's always fun to see someone I know quoted in a major news source. > Anders is quoted in the article that goes with the cover story in the > July 15 issue of Science! Yep, I got the chance to spout off a bit. I think it is a pretty good article about natural xrisks and what to do about them; my contribution is mostly framing. Of course, most of the risk to our species is anthropogenic, but natural risk can be analysed a bit more easily and uncontroversially. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From sparge at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 11:05:56 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 07:05:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 16, 2016 9:22 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK wrote: >> >> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump >> and Clinton. >> Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. > > ### This is a very good way of saying it! Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 13:59:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 09:59:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > Trump acts stupidly but has to have at least somewhat above average IQ. > ?Trump didn't blow all of daddy's money so I guess that calls for a few IQ points, enough to put his inheritance in a stock index fund or something equivalent. However anybody who claims that his area of expertise is money and yet thinks the government could default on its Treasury Bills without causing a global catastrophe can't be very swift. > ??> > OTOH - he has gotten more votes than anyone else, so if you told him he > was stupid, he'd just smile and say "Whatever works, and it's working for > me." > ? For reasons I don't entirely understand many voters want somebody as president who is just like them, they don't want somebody who is smarter than they are and Trump sounds just like they do when they're sounding off about world events at the bar after they've had a few beers. And for some people being an equal doesn't go far enough. Anti- Intellectualism has a long history in the USA and some people feel most comfortable voting for a presidential candidate who is even dumber than they are. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 13:54:16 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 06:54:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401d1e032$b62e2880$228a7980$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill ? > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK > wrote: >> >> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump >> and Clinton. >>> ?Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. >> ### This is a very good way of saying it! >?Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. -Dave In a two party system there is cross-over voting, where voters choose the other party?s weakest candidate in the primaries, so that one?s own can win. It is clear enough to me that both parties somehow chose their weakest candidate this time. This example was so extreme, it is still not clear which is worse, but both are deplorable. The real problem the US faces and other nations as well is that we have old-style leadership. We had no one running who demonstrates they have any clue about technology and the important fundamental changes it brings, the new threats and opportunities. We need new-style leaders, such as Peter Thiel. Pete isn?t eligible to run for president, having been born in Germany, but he is an example of the kind of person we need running for high office, not an endless stream of sleazeball lawyers. Perhaps Thiel will accept an office in the cabinet as a science and technology advisor or something. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 14:14:45 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:14:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 7:05 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > >> >>> ?>? >>> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump >>> ? ? >>> and Clinton.Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. >> >> > >> ?> ? >> ### This is a very good way of saying it! > > ?> ? > Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. > > ?You've not only got Gary Johnson you've also got Jill Stein of the Green Party, but most Americans have never heard of either one and neither is going to be the next president. Casting a protest vote feels nice but letting a fascist like Trump become leader of the western world and giving him the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine seems like a high price to pay for that nice feeling. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 15:16:40 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 08:16:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 17, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Jul 16, 2016 9:22 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 1:40 PM, BillK wrote: > >> > >> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump > >> and Clinton. > >> Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. > > > > ### This is a very good way of saying it! > > Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. > And let's not forget the option of not voting at all. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 15:43:52 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 08:43:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark >?However anybody who claims that his area of expertise is money and yet thinks the government could default on its Treasury Bills without causing a global catastrophe can't be very swift? John K Clark Is not the global catastrophe caused by default proportional to the size of the debt? If so (I cannot imagine a reason why not) then we should be urging foreign and domestic investors to stop loaning money to the US immediately. Loaning more money is contributing to the magnitude of the global catastrophe. This is a government which has not only failed to stop deficit spending, it isn?t even trying. So? we need to tell investors the obvious: eventual default is inevitable. All investors are really doing is betting on when it will happen. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 16:12:48 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 12:12:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 7:05 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > >> >>> ?>? >>> One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump >>> ? ? >>> and Clinton.Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. >> >> > >> ?> ? >> ### This is a very good way of saying it! > > ?> ? > Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. > > ?You've not only got Gary Johnson you've also got Jill Stein of the Green Party, but most Americans have never heard of either one and neither is going to be the next president. Casting a protest vote feels nice but letting a fascist like Trump become leader of the western world and giving him the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine seems like a high price to pay for that nice feeling. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 17:05:22 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:05:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 9:13 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 7:05 AM, Dave Sill > wrote: >> ?>? One problem is that this time the US only has a choice between Trump ? ? and Clinton.Nothing for the smart dimension to vote for there. > ?> ? ### This is a very good way of saying it! ?> ? Except it's not true because we've got Gary Johnson. ?You've not only got Gary Johnson you've also got Jill Stein of the Green Party, but most Americans have never heard of either one and neither is going to be the next president. Casting a protest vote feels nice but letting a fascist like Trump become leader of the western world and giving him the keys to a Trident Nuclear Submarine seems like a high price to pay for that nice feeling. ? ? John K Clark? That argument only applies to about six states. If we want to go with the pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state the week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of error, the outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without fear of contributing to the winner?s margin. If that catches on of course, then the results of the polls beforehand saying the outcome is certain causes the outcome to become uncertain. In any case, most yanks live in states which are permanently safe. Three good examples: California, New York and Texas. If the election is even anywhere near close in any of those three states, then it is not anywhere near close at the national level. So people in those three states are free to vote for whomever they wish for the foreseeable. Result: people in NY, TX and CA are free to vote their conscience. People in plenty of other states are free to vote their conscience as well. I highly recommend it. In fact, I recommend changing the name from protest vote to conscience vote. Do the right thing by your way of seeing things. Start in the three known free states. May the notion spread to the rest of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 17:27:00 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:27:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:43 AM, spike wrote: > ?> I? > s not the global catastrophe caused by default proportional to the size of > the debt? > > ?No, it would be worse, the loss of wealth would be vastly more than the piddling 19 trillion dollar ?s of US debt.? Globally the US treasury bonds are considered the safest debt and the safest investment in the world, it's not exciting but it's safe. if Trump is stupid enough to make T bonds worthless then investors will lose confidence in all debt and the value of all bonds will collapse and the world economy with it. And you would be hard pressed to find an economist who would disagree with what I just said. ?>? > then we should be urging foreign and domestic investors to stop loaning > money to the US immediately. Loaning more money is contributing to the > magnitude of the global catastrophe. > > ?I t's not a global catastrophe ? unless a numbskull like Trump decides to break his word and not pay it back., even just hinting that he might is horribly irresponsible for a presidential candidate. > > ?> ? > This is a government which has not only failed to stop deficit spending, > it isn?t even trying. > > ?Nor should it be. It's odd that Extropians of all people should have this puritanical belief that all debt is by definition bad. Does anybody doubt that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in 20 years? Since 1835 the US government has run a deficit every year except for 1998 ? through ? 2001 ?, and those ?by the way were the Clinton Years. > ?> ? > we need to tell investors the obvious: eventual default is inevitable. > > ?It's only inevitable if the voters make a moron the president.? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 17:37:42 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:37:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: ?> ? > And let's not forget the option of not voting at all. > I predict that if Trump wins ?then ? in less than 6 months after his coronation people will be embarrass to admit that they didn't vote, like German people in 1932 saying they didn't vote because they didn't like Hitler or Hindenburg ?. And a protest vote for somebody nobody ever heard of will just seem ridiculous.? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 18:32:13 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:32:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <004401d1e032$b62e2880$228a7980$@att.net> References: <004401d1e032$b62e2880$228a7980$@att.net> Message-ID: On 17 July 2016 at 14:54, spike wrote: > In a two party system there is cross-over voting, where voters choose the > other party?s weakest candidate in the primaries, so that one?s own can win. > It is clear enough to me that both parties somehow chose their weakest > candidate this time. This example was so extreme, it is still not clear > which is worse, but both are deplorable. > > The real problem the US faces and other nations as well is that we have > old-style leadership. We had no one running who demonstrates they have any > clue about technology and the important fundamental changes it brings, the > new threats and opportunities. > > We need new-style leaders, such as Peter Thiel. Pete isn?t eligible to run > for president, having been born in Germany, but he is an example of the kind > of person we need running for high office, not an endless stream of > sleazeball lawyers. Perhaps Thiel will accept an office in the cabinet as a > science and technology advisor or something. > Apparently Peter Thiel will be speaking at the Republican convention in support of Trump. Presumably he has reasons to prefer Trump to Clinton. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 19:16:07 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 14:16:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <004401d1e032$b62e2880$228a7980$@att.net> Message-ID: We need new-style leaders, such as Peter Thiel. spike Think of the job of President. Thankless. Day to day stress, millions blaming you for bad air or poor TV programs or something even sillier. Congress is against you. Wall Street is against you. Foreign policy a total mess with unwinnable wars, wars with more than two sides (Syria). Would anyone like those you mention even want this job? There's not enough money for me to take a job like this. I'd go to an early grave and I think I'd say the same thing at age 35. You have to be crazy to want this job. And simply power hungry. bill w On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 1:32 PM, BillK wrote: > On 17 July 2016 at 14:54, spike wrote: > > In a two party system there is cross-over voting, where voters choose the > > other party?s weakest candidate in the primaries, so that one?s own can > win. > > It is clear enough to me that both parties somehow chose their weakest > > candidate this time. This example was so extreme, it is still not clear > > which is worse, but both are deplorable. > > > > The real problem the US faces and other nations as well is that we have > > old-style leadership. We had no one running who demonstrates they have > any > > clue about technology and the important fundamental changes it brings, > the > > new threats and opportunities. > > > > We need new-style leaders, such as Peter Thiel. Pete isn?t eligible to > run > > for president, having been born in Germany, but he is an example of the > kind > > of person we need running for high office, not an endless stream of > > sleazeball lawyers. Perhaps Thiel will accept an office in the cabinet > as a > > science and technology advisor or something. > > > > Apparently Peter Thiel will be speaking at the Republican convention > in support of Trump. > Presumably he has reasons to prefer Trump to Clinton. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 17 19:17:51 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 12:17:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Name recognition Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2016 at 10:54 AM, spike wrote: > > Ja. In popular voting, name recognition is huge. It works even if it is > > someone else's name. Consider the Alvin Greene situation in 2010 where > > Greene took the nomination to run for senate from South Carolina. He > had no > > money, no campaign events, did nothing but register as a candidate and > have > > a name that plenty of voters thought was the singer Al Green. Name > > recognition took Greene to the nomination even though it wasn't even the > > same guy. > > There are many studies that show most voters in general elections -- > between 60% and 70% for the US over several decades -- basically do not > cast their vote based on policy or ideology. It's more name recognition or > other factors. Yes, the remainder are more policy or ideology-oriented, but > they're not in the majority. So, we shouldn't be too surprised in the > example you cite. :) > So how might someone like Mr. Johnson be able to fix this, in the time between now and October (when the early ballots start coming in)? If you were his campaign manager (or even him), how might you start getting enough name recognition that double-digit % of voters nationwide might start speaking of you as the "not Clinton or Trump" candidate? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 20:13:15 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:13:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> Message-ID: <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> >? Of John Clark ? ?>>??we need to tell investors the obvious: eventual default is inevitable. ?>?It's only inevitable if the voters make a moron the president? John K Clark? John, US presidents do not control T-bills. Voters don?t either. Inevitable default on those treasuries is controlled by economics. We recognize that not all debt is bad. Runaway debt is very bad. There is no way the US can keep borrowing at the rate it is going without catastrophic default, regardless of who is president. It isn?t at all clear to me we haven?t already passed the point of no return some time ago. The US has become so addicted to borrowing and spending, we are openly proclaiming we cannot balance the budget without it, and there is no point in trying. I ask who is more irresponsible: those who state the obvious on default, or those who continue to borrow and deny the obvious? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 20:20:40 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 13:20:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d1e068$b0ef7a00$12ce6e00$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark >?. And a protest vote for somebody nobody ever heard of will just seem ridiculous.?..John K Clark? Sure. A vote for Johnson is not a protest vote however, it is a conscience vote. Votes for Trump are protest votes. He has opposition from both parties and somehow manages to poll even with the establishment candidate of one of the majors. This with the backing of international donors, the endorsement of Sanders, all of it. Astonishing. The message is clear enough however: yanks don?t like Clinton and don?t trust her with nukes any more than they trust Trump with their daughter. Hear the approaching footsteps. Vote your conscience. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rex at nosyntax.net Sun Jul 17 22:49:45 2016 From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 15:49:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> Message-ID: <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: > > That argument only applies to about six states.? If we want to go with the > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state the > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of error, the > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without fear of > contributing to the winner?s margin. MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex -- If an economist drops his car keys in a dark alley he looks for them under the nearest streetlight. From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 17 23:15:17 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 16:15:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of rex Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: > >>... That argument only applies to about six states. If we want to go with the > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state the > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of error, the > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without fear of > contributing to the winner?s margin. >...MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex -- Hi Rex, ok sure. Everyone is free to decide what is the appropriate margin and for which candidate. The new question becomes: what is the requisite pre-election poll margin before one feels free to vote for the candidate he or she thinks is the best one? spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 00:33:48 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 20:33:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 4:13 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > John, US presidents do not control T-bills. > > ?Yes they do.? Unless the congress periodically passes a law to raise the farcical "debt ceiling" and the president signs it, that is to say unless they agree to pay for the stuff they *ALREADY AGREED TO BUY* the T bills will go into default. Let me repeat that, the largest and universally regarded as the safest investment on planet Earth would go belly up! And that almost happened, on October 16 2013 T-bills came within 45 minutes of defaulting. That was the day I stopped being a Republican and that is why I think Ted Cruz may be the only person who would be a worse president than Donald Trump. ?> > We recognize that not all debt is bad. > ? > Runaway debt is very bad. > > Runaway? ? In fiscal year 2009 ? the deficit was 9.8 ?%? of GDP, in ? 2015 ? it was ? 2 ?.? 5 ?%. ?That doesn't sound like the end of the world to me. > ?> ? > There is no way the US can keep borrowing at the rate it is going without > catastrophic default, regardless of who is president. > ? > It isn?t at all clear to me we haven?t already passed the point of no > return some time ago. > > ?The sign that government debt was getting too large would increasing inflation and skyrocketing interest rates, but today the inflation rate is the lowest in my lifetime and interest rates are the lowest in the history of the country. It sound to me like debt is too low not too high. ? ?> ? > The US has become so addicted to borrowing and spending, we are openly > proclaiming we cannot balance the budget without it, So what? As I said, except the for Clinton years the budget hasn't been balanced since 1835 and we don't seem to have reached the point on no return yet. ?John K Clark? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 00:48:28 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:48:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> Message-ID: > > ?> ? > The US has become so addicted to borrowing and spending, we are openly > proclaiming we cannot balance the budget without it, So what? As I said, except the for Clinton years the budget hasn't been balanced since 1835 and we don't seem to have reached the point on no return yet. ?John K Clark? I don't pretend to understand it. But I have heard before that household debt and gov debt are two entirely different animals. Here is a Nobel prize winner writing on it. If you understand it, explain it to me, please? ? > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/21/opinion/paul-krugman-debt-is-good-for-the-economy.html?_r=0 bill w On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 7:33 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 4:13 PM, spike wrote: > > > >> ?> ? >> John, US presidents do not control T-bills. >> >> > ?Yes they do.? Unless the congress periodically passes a law to raise the > farcical "debt ceiling" and the president signs it, that is to say unless > they agree to pay for the stuff they *ALREADY AGREED TO BUY* the T bills > will go into default. Let me repeat that, the largest and universally > regarded as the safest investment on planet Earth would go belly up! And > that almost happened, on October 16 2013 T-bills came within 45 minutes > of defaulting. That was the day I stopped being a Republican and that is > why I think Ted Cruz may be the only person who would be a worse president > than Donald Trump. > > ?> >> We recognize that not all debt is bad. >> ? >> Runaway debt is very bad. >> >> Runaway? > ? > In fiscal year 2009 > ? > the deficit was 9.8 > ?%? > of GDP, in > ? > 2015 > ? > it was > ? > 2 > ?.? > 5 > ?%. ?That doesn't sound like the end of the world to me. > > >> ?> ? >> There is no way the US can keep borrowing at the rate it is going without >> catastrophic default, regardless of who is president. >> ? >> It isn?t at all clear to me we haven?t already passed the point of no >> return some time ago. >> >> > ?The sign that government debt was getting too large would increasing > inflation and skyrocketing interest rates, but today the inflation rate is > the lowest in my lifetime and interest rates are the lowest in the history > of the country. It sound to me like debt is too low not too high. ? > > > ?> ? >> The US has become so addicted to borrowing and spending, we are openly >> proclaiming we cannot balance the budget without it, > > > So what? As I said, except the for Clinton years the budget hasn't been > balanced since 1835 and we don't seem to have reached the point on no > return yet. > > > ?John K Clark? > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 18 02:42:12 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:42:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> Message-ID: <012d01d1e09d$fd4d3d80$f7e7b880$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 5:34 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 4:13 PM, spike > wrote: ?> >?John, US presidents do not control T-bills. ?>?Yes they do.? Unless the congress periodically passes a law to raise the farcical "debt ceiling" and the president signs it, that is to say unless they agree to pay for the stuff they ALREADY AGREED TO BUY the T bills will go into default? On the contrary. If congress or a president refuses to increase the debt ceiling, the government is still taking in money and can still operate. It has a number of options, such as immediately cutting the pay of government employees, cutting pensions and so forth. Even with a forced balanced budget, it could still service the T-bills. It couldn?t do all the stuff it is doing now however. Much or most of that would need to be handed back to the states where it belongs. >?Let me repeat that, the largest and universally regarded as the safest investment on planet Earth would go belly up!... So an investment you previously claimed hangs on the balance of one person?s signature is the safest investment on planet Earth? Indeed? What happens when we eventually elect a president who demands a balanced budget? >?And that almost happened, on October 16 2013 T-bills came within 45 minutes of defaulting. That was the day I stopped being a Republican and that is why I think Ted Cruz may be the only person who would be a worse president than Donald Trump? So this is the safest investment on planet Earth? Should not we be reminding investors everywhere that their investments came within 45 minutes of default? ?> We recognize that not all debt is bad. ? Runaway debt is very bad. Runaway? ? In fiscal year 2009 ? the deficit was 9.8 ?%? of GDP, in 2015 it was 2.?5%. ?That doesn't sound like the end of the world to me? Debt accumulates. US debt has doubled in the past 8 years. That?s irresponsible. It?s unpatriotic. ?>?The sign that government debt was getting too large would increasing inflation and skyrocketing interest rates, but today the inflation rate is the lowest in my lifetime and interest rates are the lowest in the history of the country. It sound to me like debt is too low not too high? If only they would realize the debt capacity is infinite. Then we wouldn?t need to pay taxes at all. We wouldn?t need to work either: we could all live on pensions supplied by borrowed money forever. ? ?>>? ?The US has become so addicted to borrowing and spending, we are openly proclaiming we cannot balance the budget without it, So what? As I said, except the for Clinton years the budget hasn't been balanced since 1835 and we don't seem to have reached the point on no return yet. John K Clark? Everything is going fine so far, shouted the falling man as he passed the fourth floor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 18 02:50:50 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2016 19:50:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> Message-ID: <013a01d1e09f$32430550$96c90ff0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace >?Here is a Nobel prize winner writing on it. If you understand it, explain it to me, please? ?http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/21/opinion/paul-krugman-debt-is-good-for-the-economy.html?_r=0 bill w Hi BillW, I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. We can let our PhDs argue over how long it will take, but eventually the day will come. The faster we borrow, the sooner that day. The more we have borrowed when that day arrives, the more catastrophic the result. Any questions? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rex at nosyntax.net Mon Jul 18 11:07:50 2016 From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 04:07:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> Message-ID: <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> spike [2016-07-17 16:30]: > > >... On Behalf Of rex > Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia > > spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: > > > >>... That argument only applies to about six states. If we want to go with the > > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state the > > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of error, the > > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without fear of > > contributing to the winner?s margin. > > >...MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex > -- > > > Hi Rex, ok sure. Everyone is free to decide what is the appropriate margin and for which candidate. The new question becomes: what is the requisite pre-election poll margin before one feels free to vote for the candidate he or she thinks is the best one? How many elections have been decided by a single vote? -rex -- "The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, if it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There is no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the very hallmark of liberty." -- Quintin H. Hailsham, The Dilemma of Democracy From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 14:23:05 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:23:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. spike On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:07 AM, rex wrote: > spike [2016-07-17 16:30]: > > > > >... On Behalf Of rex > > Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia > > > > spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: > > > > > >>... That argument only applies to about six states. If we want to > go with the > > > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state > the > > > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of > error, the > > > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without > fear of > > > contributing to the winner?s margin. > > > > >...MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is > that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or > whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside > the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex > > -- > > > > > > Hi Rex, ok sure. Everyone is free to decide what is the appropriate > margin and for which candidate. The new question becomes: what is the > requisite pre-election poll margin before one feels free to vote for the > candidate he or she thinks is the best one? > > How many elections have been decided by a single vote? > > -rex > -- > "The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people > think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which > all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which > have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be > allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. > This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the > right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to > allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the > liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, if > it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There is > no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the > very hallmark of liberty." > -- Quintin H. Hailsham, The Dilemma of Democracy > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 14:27:53 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:27:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. spike Well, how about those who say that we have been in debt since 1835? And what does GDP have to do with it? And what about the article? Debt is a good thing? I understand what you say, but it seems that that is irrelevant somehow. I am with you and it scares me. bill w On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:23 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than > it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. > spike > > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:07 AM, rex wrote: > >> spike [2016-07-17 16:30]: >> > >> > >... On Behalf Of rex >> > Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia >> > >> > spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: >> > > >> > >>... That argument only applies to about six states. If we want to >> go with the >> > > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s state >> the >> > > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of >> error, the >> > > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without >> fear of >> > > contributing to the winner?s margin. >> > >> > >...MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is >> that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or >> whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside >> the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex >> > -- >> > >> > >> > Hi Rex, ok sure. Everyone is free to decide what is the appropriate >> margin and for which candidate. The new question becomes: what is the >> requisite pre-election poll margin before one feels free to vote for the >> candidate he or she thinks is the best one? >> >> How many elections have been decided by a single vote? >> >> -rex >> -- >> "The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people >> think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which >> all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which >> have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be >> allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. >> This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the >> right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to >> allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the >> liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, >> if >> it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There >> is >> no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the >> very hallmark of liberty." >> -- Quintin H. Hailsham, The Dilemma of Democracy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon Jul 18 14:52:37 2016 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:52:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fermi paradox Message-ID: I saw this via Facebook and thought I'd share it here. It's an interesting resolution to the Fermi paradox that I haven't seen posted here. They're made out of Meat by Terry Bisson "They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "Meat. They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "There's no doubt about it. We picked several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars." "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines." "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact." "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines." "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat." "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in the sector and they're made out of meat." "Maybe they're like the Orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage." "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take too long. Do you have any idea the life span of meat?" "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the Weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside." "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads like the Weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through." "No brain?" "Oh, there is a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat!" "So... what does the thinking?" "You're not understanding, are you? The brain does the thinking. The meat." "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!" "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you getting the picture?" "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat." "Finally, Yes. They are indeed made out meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years." "So what does the meat have in mind?" "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the universe, contact other sentients, swap ideas and information. The usual." "We're supposed to talk to meat?" "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there? Anyone home?' That sort of thing." "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?" "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat." "I thought you just told me they used radio." "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?" "Officially or unofficially?" "Both." "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in the quadrant, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing." "I was hoping you would say that." "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?" "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say?" `Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?" "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact." "So we just pretend there's no one home in the universe." "That's it." "Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you have probed? You're sure they won't remember?" "They'll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we're just a dream to them." "A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat's dream." "And we can mark this sector unoccupied." "Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?" "Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen core cluster intelligence in a class nine star in G445 zone. Was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again." "They always come around." "And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the universe would be if one were all alone." See Terry Bisson's Website and check out his books. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 14:56:25 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:56:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: Does this good or sustainable to you? http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/spending_chart_1792_2020USb_17s2li011lcn_H0t -Dave On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:27 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than > it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. > spike > > Well, how about those who say that we have been in debt since 1835? And > what does GDP have to do with it? And what about the article? Debt is a > good thing? I understand what you say, but it seems that that is > irrelevant somehow. I am with you and it scares me. > > bill w > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 9:23 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than >> it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. >> spike >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 6:07 AM, rex wrote: >> >>> spike [2016-07-17 16:30]: >>> > >>> > >... On Behalf Of rex >>> > Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia >>> > >>> > spike [2016-07-17 10:20]: >>> > > >>> > >>... That argument only applies to about six states. If we want >>> to go with the >>> > > pragmatic argument, one can check the opinion polls in one?s >>> state the >>> > > week before the election, then if it isn?t within the margin of >>> error, the >>> > > outcome is certain and one gets to vote however they want without >>> fear of >>> > > contributing to the winner?s margin. >>> > >>> > >...MoE is merely an arbitrary number, typically 0.95. All it means is >>> that the outcome is expected to be within that confidence internal (95% or >>> whatever) 95% of the time. This also means that it's expected to be outside >>> the MoE 5% of the time. It does NOT mean the outcome is certain. -rex >>> > -- >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Rex, ok sure. Everyone is free to decide what is the appropriate >>> margin and for which candidate. The new question becomes: what is the >>> requisite pre-election poll margin before one feels free to vote for the >>> candidate he or she thinks is the best one? >>> >>> How many elections have been decided by a single vote? >>> >>> -rex >>> -- >>> "The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other >>> people >>> think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that >>> which >>> all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which >>> have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to >>> be >>> allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. >>> This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the >>> right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to >>> allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the >>> liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, >>> if >>> it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There >>> is >>> no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the >>> very hallmark of liberty." >>> -- Quintin H. Hailsham, The Dilemma of Democracy >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 18 14:55:21 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 07:55:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Monday, July 18, 2016 7:28 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia I sure can explain it to you. If an entity continues to spend more than it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. spike Well, how about those who say that we have been in debt since 1835? And what does GDP have to do with it? And what about the article? Debt is a good thing? I understand what you say, but it seems that that is irrelevant somehow. I am with you and it scares me. bill w BillW, did you study the banking crisis of 2008? Experiment: go into your local public library, find the section on economics. Notice how many books have been written about that crisis. As in wars, the history is written by the winners. In this case, the winners were those economists and investors who realized that whole system could fail, and eventually must fail. They were right. They made fortunes. I wasn?t following it then, but I made plenty of firsthand observations. Banks were giving out risky loans that they knew were risky. They were selling the debt to organizations which were mixing the high-risk loans into the low-risk mortgage pool, under the reasonable assumption that the whole system wouldn?t ever fail; it was too big to fail. They could externalize risk by pouring the toxic waste into the big fresh-water pond and make big money. Well, eventually we learned the system is not too big to fail. Neither is the US government. If it does the wrong thing long enough, it will go bankrupt and it will fail to meet its obligations, even as it pretends to do so. My prediction: the fed will start by publishing phony manipulated inflation numbers. (Oh wait, never mind, they are already doing that and have been for a long time.) Federal pensions, including (or rather especially) Social Security will be increased at that number, a percent or two, as prices increase at a far higher rate. In this scenario, it isn?t entirely clear exactly when the system failed, but it will be clear enough that it did at some point. The evidence will be the numbers of elderly living in poverty. A PhD in economics is not necessary to see this coming, and in some ways, already here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 15:25:56 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 11:25:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <013a01d1e09f$32430550$96c90ff0$@att.net> References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <013a01d1e09f$32430550$96c90ff0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 17, 2016 at 10:50 PM, spike wrote: > > ?> ? > If an entity continues to spend more than it takes in, and does it long > enough, that entity will eventually go bust. > > ?Not if the entity continues to increase the amount of money it takes in from year to year, and if technology advances (and as a Extropian I think it just might) ?that is a entirely reasonable possibility. But if you're really worried about debt you should vote for the Democrats not the spendthrift Republicans. Republican Bush Senior gave Democrat Clinton a 269 billion dollar budget deficit, Democrat Clinton ? gave Republican Bush Junior a 127 billion dollar budget SURPLUS, Republican Bush Junior gave Democrat Obama a 1.4 TRILLION dollar budget deficit, so far Obama has reduced the deficit to 492 billion.? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 16:17:12 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 17:17:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You Message-ID: George Dvorsky has an article in Gixmodo. 13 July 2016 The future looks bright, except when it doesn?t. Here are 10 exceptionally regrettable developments we can expect in the coming decades. Listed in no particular order. Being of a pessimistic outlook (i.e. a realist) all ten scenarios seem pretty likely to me, some sooner than others. BillK From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 18 16:56:26 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 09:56:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <013a01d1e09f$32430550$96c90ff0$@att.ne t> Message-ID: <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark >?Republican Bush Junior gave Democrat Obama a 1.4 TRILLION dollar budget deficit, so far Obama has reduced the deficit to 492 billion.?..John K Clark Of those two, I choose? none of the above. Neither party has demonstrated responsibility with budgets, both major parties are spending way beyond their means. Throw them out. I live in a free state, so I can vote for whoever I think is best. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:25:41 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:25:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:17 PM, BillK wrote: < > http://gizmodo.com/10-predictions-about-the-future-that-should-scare-the-h-1783538821 > > > > ?> ? > Being of a pessimistic outlook (i.e. a realist) ?I don't think a pessimist is inherently more intelligent than a optimist, although he can write more attention grabbing headlines. ? ?>? > all ten scenarios seem > ? ? > pretty likely to me, 2. People who transfer their minds to computers are actually killing > themselves ?Some of the worries on the list are genuine ( like " create their own pandemic ?")? but that one is just silly. We know for a fact that changes in the physical state of an object can change consciousness and we know for a fact that consciousness can change the physical state of an object. And we also know that Evolution can see intelligent behavior but ? ?not consciousness, but we also know for a fact that nevertheless Evolution managed to produced at least one thing that was conscious and probably many billions. So it you get the physics right so that intelligent behavior is produced consciousness will come along for the ride. ? ?> ? > 3. Authoritarianism will make a comeback ?We'll know more about that after November 8?. 6. The effects of climate change will be irreversible ?Who cares? Certainly not me.? ?> ? > 10. We?ll never make contact with aliens ?We won't if we're the first, and that seems increasingly likely to me, and I think that's optimistic not pessimistic.? ?If we were to find aliens tomorrow their technology couldn't be enormously more advanced than our own or we'd have detected them long ago; ?that would mean there must be a calamity of some sort that falls on technological civilizations when they get to about the point we're in right now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:29:05 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:29:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <013a01d1e09f$32430550$96c90ff0$@att.ne t> <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2016, at 9:56 AM, spike wrote: > >?Republican Bush Junior gave Democrat Obama a 1.4 TRILLION dollar budget deficit, so far Obama has reduced the deficit to 492 billion.?..John K Clark > > Of those two, I choose? none of the above. Neither party has demonstrated responsibility with budgets, both major parties are spending way beyond their means. Throw them out. > > I live in a free state, so I can vote for whoever I think is best. There's the issue when talking about these deficit or surplus numbers of how seriously to take them given how much is not included. And the non-included is actually estimated to be quite large -- in the deficit direction. In other words, not a mere accounting error. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:32:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:32:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > Does this good or sustainable to you? > > http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/spending_chart_1792_2020USb_17s2li011lcn_H0t > ?Yes. We know that the total amount of mass-energy ? ?in the universe is fixed and the same goes for momentum, but there is no law of the conservation of money. ?The total amount of wealth in the world is not fixed and it's not a zero sum game either. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:50:33 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 12:50:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: we know for a fact that consciousness can change the physical state of an object. john How do we know this? Physics experiments? Done is the presence of awake or sleeping physicists? How do we, that is, this group, or just you, define consciousness? An amoeba is aware of its environment and reacts to it. What more do you want? Thinking? OK, define that. I 'think' that creatures down to bugs are conscious and maybe a lot further. Worms can learn. Does that take consciousness or thinking? My problem is that these terms just keep getting thrown around with no real definition, so we can't tell if we are talking at cross purposes. Yes, I've read Dennett and he didn't help. bill w On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:17 PM, BillK wrote: > > < >> http://gizmodo.com/10-predictions-about-the-future-that-should-scare-the-h-1783538821 >> > >> >> ?> ? >> Being of a pessimistic outlook (i.e. a realist) > > > ?I don't think a pessimist is inherently more intelligent than a optimist, > although he can write more attention grabbing headlines. ? > > > ?>? >> all ten scenarios seem >> ? ? >> pretty likely to me, > > 2. People who transfer their minds to computers are actually killing >> themselves > > > ?Some of the worries on the list are genuine ( like " > create their own pandemic > ?")? > but that one is just silly. We know for a fact that changes in the > physical state of an object can change consciousness and we know for a fact > that consciousness can change the physical state of an object. And we also > know that Evolution can see intelligent behavior but ? > > ?not consciousness, but we also know for a fact that nevertheless > Evolution managed to produced at least one thing that was conscious and > probably many billions. So it you get the physics right so that intelligent > behavior is produced consciousness will come along for the ride. ? > > ?> ? >> 3. Authoritarianism will make a comeback > > > ?We'll know more about that after November 8?. > > 6. The effects of climate change will be irreversible > > > ?Who cares? Certainly not me.? > > ?> ? >> 10. We?ll never make contact with aliens > > > ?We won't if we're the first, and that seems increasingly likely to me, > and I think that's optimistic not pessimistic.? > > ?If we were to find aliens tomorrow their technology couldn't be > enormously more advanced than our own or we'd have detected them long ago; > ?that would mean there must be a calamity of some sort that falls on > technological civilizations when they get to about the point we're in right > now. > > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 17:57:24 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:57:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 18, 2016 9:19 AM, "BillK" wrote: > George Dvorsky has an article in Gixmodo. 13 July 2016 > The future looks bright, except when it doesn?t. > Here are 10 exceptionally regrettable developments we can expect in > the coming decades. > Listed in no particular order. > > < http://gizmodo.com/10-predictions-about-the-future-that-should-scare-the-h-1783538821 > > > Being of a pessimistic outlook (i.e. a realist) all ten scenarios seem > pretty likely to me, some sooner than others. They're things to watch out for, sure, but most of them can be guarded against. Authoritarian governments, for instance, can be resisted in the same fashion they always have been, regardless of their reasons for desiring tighter control. ("But but they'll be authoritarian and use military force", or any knee jerk response along those lines, has already been answered if you look at what has eventually happened to most previous governments that did that.) Number two is the old identity fallacy: insisting that someone thinking they are the same identity after some significant shift (like being uploaded) must inherently be mistaken for no other reason than that shift. But there are similar shifts in human beings which we do not take as cause to have someone believe the former identity is dead and this is now some new person inhabiting the same flesh. (Granted, some people do believe that - "that's not my mother/wife/daughter, clearly she must be a demon/a spirit/an imposter" - but we treat such cases as mental illness on the part of those who insist the old person is dead and refuse to recognize the new person as a person at all, let alone the same person but changed. I suspect the same approach might start being used once there are actual uploads who others attempt to treat as nonpersons with this justification, rather than because of some demonstrable and measurable lack of mental capacity on the upload's part.) Number ten is...so? It is possible, no matter how unlikely some may claim, that we really are the first sentient life to arise within our lightcone (or even within the entire local cluster so far, whether or not light from other species' stone age campfire equivalents would have reached us yet). That would not be a disaster for us, nor would it be any sort of herald of such. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 19:27:06 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:27:06 +0100 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 July 2016 at 18:57, Adrian Tymes wrote: > They're things to watch out for, sure, but most of them can be guarded > against. Authoritarian governments, for instance, can be resisted in the > same fashion they always have been, regardless of their reasons for desiring > tighter control. ("But but they'll be authoritarian and use military > force", or any knee jerk response along those lines, has already been > answered if you look at what has eventually happened to most previous > governments that did that.) As individuals we can watch out for authoritarian governments, but as he says, when a nation feels under threat they seek strong governments. And when you give strong governments the total surveillance capability, that is something new in the world. We see the effect of that already, with huge databases of 'suspects' (i.e. everyone). Of course, all his scenarios are debatable. So we can try to avoid the worst possibilities. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:08:53 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 16:08:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> ?>> ? >> we know for a fact that consciousness can change the physical state of an >> object. john > > > ?> ? > How do we know this? > ?I can't say how we know this bit I know why I can. I consciously decide to pick up a physical flyswatter and the physical flyswatter moves, and ?I have a strong hunch you're conscious but I know for a fact I am. ?> ? > Thinking? OK, define that. > ?No. Examples are vastly more important than definitions.? > ?> ? > My problem is that these terms just keep getting thrown around with no > real definition, ?That's not a problem as long as there are examples, after all examples are where lexicographers get the information to write the definitions in their dictionary.? ?Most people haven't looked in a dictionary in years but they get along just fine because they have examples.? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:24:07 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 16:24:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 Dan TheBookMan wrote: ?> ? > There's the issue when talking about these deficit or surplus numbers of > how seriously to take them given how much is not included. And the > non-included is actually estimated to be quite large > ?Yeah, all the economic data in the last 35 years is phony, and the government knows that flying saucers exist but the Men In Black suppress the evidence and erase the memory of anybody who sees something they shouldn't. Dan, in the Scientific Method if a theory doesn't fit the facts the theory must be abandoned no matter how loved that theory may be. And that includes political and economic theories. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 20:37:38 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 13:37:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 10 Predictions About the Future That Should Scare the Hell Out of You In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:27 PM, BillK wrote: > As individuals we can watch out for authoritarian governments, > but as he says, when a nation feels under threat they seek > strong governments. And when you give strong governments > the total surveillance capability, that is something new in the > world. We see the effect of that already, with huge databases > of 'suspects' (i.e. everyone). One problem is one can always feel threatened and threats per se can be felt regardless of their likelihood. And some can feed on those fears regardless of either their [the threat's] likelihood, any effectiveness in mitigation, or the costs involved. (On the latter, let's remember that effort expended in one area -- against one threat -- might reduce efforts in another. This isn't always so, but it's so often enough and tends to be forgotten when people are in crisis mode.) Politicians, especially, like to be seen as part of the solution and to be doing something -- a recipe in a fear-driven society for bad policies and bad institutional arrangements. By the way, those who say we can fight authoritarian regimes as we've done in the past might reflect on two things: 1. The sunk costs here -- even if an authoritarian regime is successfully undermined, it's not like the cost is low or recoverable. Every time I read up on wars, especially the two world wars, I wonder what if they had both been avoid. How much further along might we all be had the efforts of millions not gone into fighting them -- if only a fraction had gone into making life better? 2. People often die doing so. One might call this the ultimate sunk cost. It's fine is you survive and thrive afterward, but what about those not around? And if that doesn't motivate you, imagine the rest of survive but you're the victim -- you die. You might've preferred a path where we simply avoid authoritarianism -- even if it meant putting up with more of those other things we fear. > Of course, all his scenarios are debatable. So we can try to avoid the > worst possibilities. I think the satisficing vs. optimizing distinction might apply here. Sure, I want to avoid the worst outcomes, but one should consider the costs. For instance, to prevent home made pandemics, a quick and dirty solution might be strict controls on all biotechnology and even chemical research. Whether that's doable is open to debate, but it seems like avoiding a possible catastrophe by overkill. The slowing down of research plus the likelihood research will become even more politically controlled seems very high here. Regards, Dan My latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," is free today PDT: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 18 21:39:48 2016 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 21:39:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Anders in Science magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <473425248.2064883.1468877988788.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> While we're congratulating Anders, may I congratulate his boss Nick Bostrom for making the Financial Times' weekend magazine this weekend with an article on the threat from potential superintelligence. Mostly rehashed ideas we've all heard, but good to see differing points of view sensibly discussed in a reasonable way by the media. (There was also an amazing article about storing radioactive waste, and how in Finland they're burying it beneath the ice hoping no-one will remember where it is, and how France has philosophers carefully contemplating how to warn people away.) Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 18 22:50:28 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 17:50:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> Message-ID: Dan, in the Scientific Method if a theory doesn't fit the facts the theory must be abandoned no matter how loved that theory may be. And that includes political and economic theories. ? ? John K Clark? Exactly, and that's why we should elect more scientists. Why don't they run for office? Can't stand being around all those lawyers? In my experience, lawyers are good for interpreting law, just not good at making it. Why can't the Repubs see that the trickle down economic theory is killing us in places, like Mississippi and Kansas and Louisiana? It's just so obviously wrong, like socialism in Venezuela. bill w On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 3:24 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > ?> ? >> There's the issue when talking about these deficit or surplus numbers of >> how seriously to take them given how much is not included. And the >> non-included is actually estimated to be quite large >> > > ?Yeah, all the economic data in the last 35 years is phony, and the > government knows that flying saucers exist but the Men In Black suppress > the evidence and erase the memory of anybody who sees something they > shouldn't. > > Dan, in the Scientific Method if a theory doesn't fit the facts the theory > must be abandoned no matter how loved that theory may be. And that includes > political and economic theories. ? > > > ? John K Clark? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 00:56:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:56:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <003701d1e042$05946650$10bd32f0$@att.net> <009501d1e067$a75ba730$f612f590$@att.net> <010a01d1e115$5307d4c0$f9177e40$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?> ? > we should elect more scientists. Why don't they run for office? > ?Scientists know they couldn't get elected because they do things backward. Scientists use science to figure out what to believe, but voters know that the better way is to first decide on what the truth is and only then see if there is a scientific reason to justify that belief; and if there isn't believe it anyway. John K Clark ? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Mon Jul 18 17:04:42 2016 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:04:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> Message-ID: <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> I agree, Spike. The only salvation from technology that I think could salvage the system at this point would be a ?Boomerang.? If we were able to cure old age (not even death, necessarily, but the big debilitating diseases of old age ? cancer, heart disease, dementia, frailty ? and millions of Boomers were suddenly hale enough, physically and mentally, to stay in or re-enter the work-force, then the demands on medical care and retirement funds would be much reduced. We?d have an economic boom. Though it would be pretty hard on Millennials trying to compete. A little more fiscal responsibility from our government would still be a good thing, imho. Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom (which is different from general intelligence) of the population increase? Tara > On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:55 AM, spike wrote: > > > My prediction: the fed will start by publishing phony manipulated inflation numbers. (Oh wait, never mind, they are already doing that and have been for a long time.) Federal pensions, including (or rather especially) Social Security will be increased at that number, a percent or two, as prices increase at a far higher rate. In this scenario, it isn?t entirely clear exactly when the system failed, but it will be clear enough that it did at some point. The evidence will be the numbers of elderly living in poverty. > > A PhD in economics is not necessary to see this coming, and in some ways, already here. > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 09:57:47 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 11:57:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Video Q/A with Frank J. Tipler Message-ID: Video Q/A with Frank J. Tipler - Yesterday Micah Redding and I spent a few hours in a fascinating online discussion with Prof. Frank J. Tipler, covering Tipler?s ideas, papers, books, physics (a lot of that) and theology. Watch the full video below... http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/19/video-qa-with-frank-j-tipler/ From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 13:52:42 2016 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 09:52:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:04 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom (which is > different from general intelligence) of the population increase? As I gain the wisdom to stop trying to share my own insights with those who haven't yet asked for them, I imagine the extreme result of that is those who have mastered this skill will leave the remaining population to themselves. The wisest among us are likely watching the wheels fall off but don't have to care. From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 19 16:32:42 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: ?Scientists know they couldn't get elected because they do things backward. Scientists use science to figure out what to believe, but voters know that the better way is to first decide on what the truth is and only then see if there is a scientific reason to justify that belief; and if there isn't believe it anyway. John K Clark ? I do not hesitate to call this a profound statement of the psychology of the average person, particularly the religious ones. The only thing missing is what I would add to the end: "....believe it anyway, and become antiscience." Billions are taught to believe their holy book ab ovo. Then later they get exposed to rational thinking, which often opposes their holy book, and so they retreat to that book and dismiss other opinions. I wondered if anyone has studied the children of atheists....so I Googled it and found the following highly interesting links: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=studies%20of%20the%20children%20of%20atheists . I also found that rational problem-solving was higher in those children, though that finding is not surprising as the empathy one was to me. OTOH - Haidt found that conservatives were morely likely to be religious and less likely to score highly in the care/harm dimension - a measure of empathy. bill w On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Tara Maya wrote: > I agree, Spike. The only salvation from technology that I think could > salvage the system at this point would be a ?Boomerang.? If we were able to > cure old age (not even death, necessarily, but the big debilitating > diseases of old age ? cancer, heart disease, dementia, frailty ? and > millions of Boomers were suddenly hale enough, physically and mentally, to > stay in or re-enter the work-force, then the demands on medical care and > retirement funds would be much reduced. We?d have an economic boom. Though > it would be pretty hard on Millennials trying to compete. > > A little more fiscal responsibility from our government would still be a > good thing, imho. > > Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom (which > is different from general intelligence) of the population increase? > > Tara > > > On Jul 18, 2016, at 7:55 AM, spike wrote: > > > My prediction: the fed will start by publishing phony manipulated > inflation numbers. (Oh wait, never mind, they are already doing that and > have been for a long time.) Federal pensions, including (or rather > especially) Social Security will be increased at that number, a percent or > two, as prices increase at a far higher rate. In this scenario, it isn?t > entirely clear exactly when the system failed, but it will be clear enough > that it did at some point. The evidence will be the numbers of elderly > living in poverty. > > A PhD in economics is not necessary to see this coming, and in some ways, > already here. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 10:09:02 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:09:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Don=E2=80=99t_miss_the_Terasem_GN11_Workshop_on_B?= =?utf-8?q?ioNanoTechnology=2C_today_=28July_20=29_in_Second_Life?= Message-ID: Don?t miss the 11th Terasem Annual Workshop on Geoethical Nanotechnology, today (July 20) at 9am PDT, noon EDT (5pm in London, 6pm in most of continental Europe). Futurist Melanie Swan will give a talk on BioNano technology, current status and prospects, and philosophical aspects. I look forward to seeing you at the Workshop! Access coordinates below... http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/20/dont-miss-the-terasem-gn11-workshop-on-bionanotechnology-today-july-20-in-second-life/ Melanie Swan will talk about nanotechnology and biological cell repair, important advances, and key philosophical aspects from a systems theory perspective. Other keywords: relational process thinking, complexity, Big Data, machine learning, posthuman and transhuman perspectives, nanobots, bio-cryptoeconomy (I?ll listen to Melanie very carefully to understand what that one means). From spike66 at att.net Wed Jul 20 14:13:00 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 07:13:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weirdos Message-ID: <004401d1e290$d36d78f0$7a486ad0$@att.net> Fun article on why everything we think we know on sociology is messed up. Reason: far too many theories are based on the behavior of Enslish-speaking undergrads, a dataset far from representative of humanity. https://aeon.co/essays/american-undergrads-are-too-weird-to-stand-for-all-hu manity?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter &utm_campaign=ddf0988c9c-Daily_Newsletter_20_July_20167_20_2016&utm_medium=e mail&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-ddf0988c9c-68957125 I often wonder about us, those who are reading this now. We are all far more alike than we are different. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 14:53:21 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:53:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] weirdos In-Reply-To: <004401d1e290$d36d78f0$7a486ad0$@att.net> References: <004401d1e290$d36d78f0$7a486ad0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 9:13 AM, spike wrote: > > > Fun article on why everything we think we know on sociology is messed up. > Reason: far too many theories are based on the behavior of Enslish-speaking > undergrads, a dataset far from representative of humanity. > > > > > https://aeon.co/essays/american-undergrads-are-too-weird-to-stand-for-all-humanity?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ddf0988c9c-Daily_Newsletter_20_July_20167_20_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-ddf0988c9c-68957125 > > > > I often wonder about us, those who are reading this now. We are all far > more alike than we are different. > > > > spike > > ?Behaviorists did research with the typical white rats and assumed that the principles of learning they discovered were universal. Then some guys caught some wild rats and tested them with the same mazes, etc. Completely different results. Keep in mind: every generalization from a sample to a population is an assumption and often invalid. But no reputable researcher would claim that their results are facts without testing on different samples. (How many times did the physicists repeat the experiment that found the Higgs boson?) Many researchers in my areas like personality and moral behavior, have networks worldwide that repeat the studies with subjects in different countries. So it's not like the problem is unknown.? ? But sociology is the least scientific of all behavioral sciences. Unless you count economics. bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rex at nosyntax.net Wed Jul 20 19:49:18 2016 From: rex at nosyntax.net (rex) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> William Flynn Wallace [2016-07-18 07:29]: > Spike wrote: >> I sure can explain it to you.? If an entity continues to spend more than >> it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. >> spike > > Well, how about those who say that we have been in debt since 1835?? And > what does GDP have to do with it?? And what about the article?? Debt is a > good thing?? I understand what you say, but it seems that that is > irrelevant somehow.? I am with you and it scares me. GDP has much to do with it because what matters is debt as a percentage of income. Absolute debt values are meaningless without a base GDP to compare the debt with. If GDP increases faster than debt, debt can increase indefinitely without causing a crisis. -r -- "A rumor without a leg to stand on will get around some other way." - John Tudor From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 21:30:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:30:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 3:49 PM, rex wrote: ?> ? > If GDP increases faster than debt, debt can increase indefinitely without > causing a crisis. > ?Good thing too, otherwise the USA would have been in a continuing crisis that began in 1835. And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 22:38:50 2016 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:38:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 2:30 PM, John Clark wrote: > And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. > Why not? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Jul 20 23:00:45 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 16:00:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Jul 20, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 2:30 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >> And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. > > Why not? Ditto. Also, I would make a difference between coercive (usually called 'public') debt and voluntary debt. Certainly, none of us here voluntarily borrowed on the national debate; its payments are forced upon us. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 00:50:14 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 20:50:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: ?>> ? >> And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. >> > > ?> ? > Why not? > ? Capitalism is about capital, ? If I invent a brilliant new ? widget ? I'm going to need capital to mass produce them, so if I don't have the capital ?to do that ? I'm going to have to borrow some. And if I borrow something I'm going to have to give it back ?,? and that means I've incurred a debt. Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy wouldn't have existed without its banks. ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Jul 21 00:55:38 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:55:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of rex Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:49 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia William Flynn Wallace [2016-07-18 07:29]: > Spike wrote: >> I sure can explain it to you.? If an entity continues to spend more than >> it takes in, and does it long enough, that entity will eventually go bust. >> spike > > Well, how about those who say that we have been in debt since 1835?? And > what does GDP have to do with it?? And what about the article?? Debt is a > good thing?? I understand what you say, but it seems that that is > irrelevant somehow.? I am with you and it scares me. >...GDP has much to do with it because what matters is debt as a percentage of income. Absolute debt values are meaningless without a base GDP to compare the debt with. >...If GDP increases faster than debt, debt can increase indefinitely without causing a crisis. -r -- Ja. This is why I worry that politicians don't really understand the difference between debt and deficit. If there is a deficit, our debt to GDP ratio is increasing. There is another factor here: we always assume growth. But that assumption could fail, or could be lower than we had counted on. Then by borrowing the future's wealth, we would be robbing the poor and giving to the rich (us.) We can and should balance the federal budget. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 02:39:32 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:39:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 spike wrote: > ?> ? > If there is a deficit, our debt to GDP > ? > ratio is increasing. > ?In 2009 the deficit was about 10% of GDP?, in 2015 it was about 3%. That's not a increase. ?> ? > There is another factor here: we always assume growth. A pretty good long tern assumption if technological progress doesn't stop dead in its tracks. ? > ?> ? > But that assumption > ? > could fail, ?Yes that's possible. If inflation and interest rates got very high growth would slow, and that would happen if the ?deficit was too high. But both interest rates and inflation are at incredible historic lows, so it sure doesn't seen like the deficit is a important economic problem right now. A more powerful argument could be made that the deficit is too low not too high. ?> ? > We can and should balance the federal budget. > ?If so then Bill Clinton was the only one who got it right since 1835.? On a different topic, there is a very very interesting video about the author of "The Art Of The deal" and also a good article. And no I'm not talking about Donald Trump: ? http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/art-of-the-deal-ghostwriter-speaks-out-729014339840 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Jul 21 08:44:51 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 09:44:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: On 2016-07-18 18:04, Tara Maya wrote: > Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom > (which is different from general intelligence) of the population > increase? Maybe. We know older people have higher conscientiousness scores. Studies looking at various wisdom scales have been equivocal. Kramer argued that it is not having a lot of experience that gives you wisdom, but difficult, morally challenging and require a bit of profoundity. Wink and Helson apparently found that divorced women scored higher on wisdom than women who had not experienced it (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1020782619051). This study (http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pag/23/4/787/) argued that age-related cognitive changes may impair the development of practical wisdom (so health extension would boost it). This might also explain the sometimes seen curvilinear relationships seen in studies. There is even some evidence that wisdom might be specific for situations that fit the person: older people may hence be wise about old people (http://psychsocgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/69/6/897.abstract). I think longer healthspans at least mean more human capital: more cognitive ability, more skill, more experience, more social networks can be brought to bear on a problem. That is by no means wisdom on its own, but still somewhat useful. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From anders at aleph.se Wed Jul 20 21:41:59 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:41:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is a bit sad and reflective of the current state of the list that this question never got answered, but the thread taken over by politics. I guess the true answer is that MM is busy with his transhumanist job. And that extropianism is only as alive as people expounding and expanding it. Asking and authority for a place of true freedom seems a bit discordant. Create a place of true freedom, and attract people with the glory of the discourse. On 2016-07-16 05:02, Kevin George Haskell wrote: > There once was a technological warrior-King of freedom with the initials MM. Was he cucked into silence by an SJW, was he threatened by the government, did business interests tamp him down, or was it magic, but I ask for all of us who once listened to him, will you rise to be a King again, or must Extropianism be continue to be forced to listen on the private list-serv list to wild-eyed leftists who would be better served posting articles on IEET, etc.? The Technolibertarian group set up to take MM's empty,place is now run by government anti-free-speech hacks. When will MM create a place on the Internet of pure freedom where it once existed, or has his place as freedom leader King now gone? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 10:49:34 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:49:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 July 2016 at 22:41, Anders wrote: > It is a bit sad and reflective of the current state of the list that this > question never got answered, but the thread taken over by politics. > > I guess the true answer is that MM is busy with his transhumanist job. And > that extropianism is only as alive as people expounding and expanding it. > > Asking and authority for a place of true freedom seems a bit discordant. > Create a place of true freedom, and attract people with the glory of the > discourse. > I agree that currently the list is too much involved in arguing about current politics. There are plenty of other places on the net where such rage and frustration can be given free range. Extropy Institute closed in late 2006. (Ten years ago!). (Yes, really! Ten years ago!). The Exi-chat list description says 'We welcome innovative discussions pertaining to scientific, technological, philosophical, artistic, economic, and social perspectives on the future'. Current politics is not mentioned, though people argue that politics affects the future, so should be discussed. Unfortunately politics is a never-ending argument, regardless of who wins elections every few years. The content of the list is down to list members agreeing what are appropriate subjects for discussion and moderators guiding the discussions in those directions. If a discussion goes out of bounds or goes on too long with no end in sight, then it may need to be ended by the moderators. But list content really is up to the members. The more that Kevin contributes to discussions then the more the list 'atmosphere' will include his ideas and opinions. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 13:32:06 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:32:06 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Video: 11th Terasem Annual Workshop on Geoethical Nanotechnology, Second Life, July 20 Message-ID: The 11th Terasem Annual Workshop on Geoethical Nanotechnology was held in Second Life on July 20, 2016. Futurist Melanie Swan gave a talk on BioNano technology, current status and prospects, and philosophical aspects. This is a full video recording of the Workshop, including Q/A. Enjoy! http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/21/video-11th-terasem-annual-workshop-on-geoethical-nanotechnology-second-life-july-20/ From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 14:34:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 09:34:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: bill k The Exi-chat list description says 'We welcome innovative discussions pertaining to scientific, technological, philosophical, artistic, economic, and social perspectives on the future'. ? Though I have contributed to the political discussion, it is not why I joined this list. What I thought I could contribute is certainly not in the technical area of nanotechnology, mind uploading, or any other sort of thing that can improve humans through technology. I have put up posts that tried to get discussions started on improving people directly, through such things as eugenics. Just what features of current humans are worth saving and what needs to be lost or changed? These are not highly complicated psychological things that a layman cannot begin to understand. I do think that forms of government belong here. Just what governments will be most useful to future humans if we can manage to improve ourselves greatly? I can certainly get more discussion by joining more psych oriented groups, but so far I like the lively discussions this group can get into, and most of the people in it. But lately it seems my posts just do not interest anyone, and that's fine, as I am not interested in many other posts myself. So I take it from those who have been here a long time that the interests have narrowed and gone off target a bit. And maybe 'been there, done that' has made some topics boring. I will hang around, though?. bill w On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 5:49 AM, BillK wrote: > On 20 July 2016 at 22:41, Anders wrote: > > It is a bit sad and reflective of the current state of the list that this > > question never got answered, but the thread taken over by politics. > > > > I guess the true answer is that MM is busy with his transhumanist job. > And > > that extropianism is only as alive as people expounding and expanding it. > > > > Asking and authority for a place of true freedom seems a bit discordant. > > Create a place of true freedom, and attract people with the glory of the > > discourse. > > > > > I agree that currently the list is too much involved in arguing about > current politics. There are plenty of other places on the net where > such rage and frustration can be given free range. > > Extropy Institute closed in late 2006. (Ten years ago!). (Yes, > really! Ten years ago!). > > The Exi-chat list description says 'We welcome innovative discussions > pertaining to scientific, technological, philosophical, artistic, > economic, and social perspectives on the future'. > > Current politics is not mentioned, though people argue that politics > affects the future, so should be discussed. Unfortunately politics is > a never-ending argument, regardless of who wins elections every few > years. > > The content of the list is down to list members agreeing what are > appropriate subjects for discussion and moderators guiding the > discussions in those directions. If a discussion goes out of bounds or > goes on too long with no end in sight, then it may need to be ended by > the moderators. > > But list content really is up to the members. The more that Kevin > contributes to discussions then the more the list 'atmosphere' will > include his ideas and opinions. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 15:00:01 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:00:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I will hang around, though?. Please do. I don't always respond to your postings but they're always worthwhile. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Jul 21 15:29:00 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 08:29:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> Message-ID: <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of Anders Subject: Re: [ExI] net wisdom On 2016-07-18 18:04, Tara Maya wrote: >>... Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom > (which is different from general intelligence) of the population > increase? >...Maybe. We know older people have higher conscientiousness scores.... -- Dr Anders Sandberg _______________________________________________ What concerns me is reduced adaptability as the population ages. We are suffering from reduced adaptability in a time which demands more of it. Nowhere is this more apparent than in public schools. Governments do not seem to be adapting well to increasing involuntary transparency either. spike From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:10:09 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 12:10:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 10:39 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 spike wrote: > >>> There is another factor here: we always assume growth. > > A pretty good long tern assumption if technological progress doesn't stop dead in its tracks. There's an interesting article in The New Yorker about LED "light bulbs" and planned obsolescence: http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-l-e-d-quandary-why-theres-no-such-thing-as-built-to-last I'm not sure it's safe to equate technological progress with economic growth. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Jul 20 14:29:41 2016 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:29:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] weirdos In-Reply-To: <004401d1e290$d36d78f0$7a486ad0$@att.net> References: <004401d1e290$d36d78f0$7a486ad0$@att.net> Message-ID: <99206D12-5F85-4D4C-A3EC-6011E0496405@gmu.edu> That applies far more to psychology than to sociology. Sociologists tend to travel more widely. On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:13 AM, spike > wrote: Fun article on why everything we think we know on sociology is messed up. Reason: far too many theories are based on the behavior of Enslish-speaking undergrads, a dataset far from representative of humanity. https://aeon.co/essays/american-undergrads-are-too-weird-to-stand-for-all-humanity?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=ddf0988c9c-Daily_Newsletter_20_July_20167_20_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-ddf0988c9c-68957125 Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford University Assoc. Prof. Economics, George Mason University See my new book: http://ageofem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:16:17 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:16:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] brain map Message-ID: ? http://www.nature.com/articles/nature18933.epdf?referrer_access_token=yW7fYJJ13ccJ1n-3a7WNkdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0O0Lx4Tw9Skr3oFpihwmWy3rOpIR_PgsKSYzJ0kckcyZVubMoWVn1F0nPCMpkB1956MF9lJEiw5_Q413j8UGvT7SIN0e02T4Cn8tL2UHeDImhhy_GhryTlsNa_uqdKFa14Wkxg0t0gqeZQoPECHuwq9q7xiR-xN6-eH5NoR2XjA4otezYYUPvflTVV0nrx-Ljtpfwe4YQ-fcHyoFzPRNF7xqKCLjUdLd-jmO4tjv0a7gGTBMxhxnTc_2Xo1BE_tn5c%3D&tracking_referrer=www.nytimes.com Way of my league but of interest to some on this list, I think. bill w? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:44:08 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:44:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: dave There's an interesting article in The New Yorker about LED "light bulbs" and planned obsolescence: ?It was, oh, about 30 years ago or so that my local electronics fixit guy told me to hang on the my electronic products like my microwave, and fix them as long as they can be fixed because they were putting cheaper parts into even the top of the line models. I have a power amp whose transformer weighs more than several new receivers - about 40 pounds. It will live a lot longer than I will.? McIntosh. Pay for what you get works at times. At premium levels. But what can you do? My B and D dustbuster battery gave out (my second and reconditioned one) and it will cost me $35 to replace it, more than several B and D new dustbuster models. How to decide? For products like TVs, why put quality parts in them when new technology will replace it in a few years? You'll want the newer model - bigger, better resolution, more features, and cheaper! (BTW, Murdoch's prediction about the cost of DVDs turned out wrong. He said that next year (which was about 2005) they would cost nothing.) Close. Sell the players at cost so you can sell them the software, he said. I wonder what a car would cost if every part were the best that it could be? Right now we've got 'Good enough for who and what it's for.' ?bill w? On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 10:39 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 spike wrote: > > > >>> There is another factor here: we always assume growth. > > > > A pretty good long tern assumption if technological progress doesn't > stop dead in its tracks. > > There's an interesting article in The New Yorker about LED "light bulbs" > and planned obsolescence: > > > http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-l-e-d-quandary-why-theres-no-such-thing-as-built-to-last > > I'm not sure it's safe to equate technological progress with economic > growth. > > -Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 16:59:46 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 12:59:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Dave Sill wrote: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > ?>>? >> I will hang around, though?. > > > ?> ? > Please do. I don't always respond to your postings but they're always > worthwhile. > ?I agree. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:05:20 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 13:05:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Critical take on The Age of Em In-Reply-To: References: <872591BD-C19F-494C-8249-AC92B1B08B19@gmail.com> <53947B0E-67C0-4282-959A-06525952316F@gmu.edu> <78E77BF0-FE0C-47DD-97BC-64D13018E2CB@gmu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 5:33 AM, Robin D Hanson wrote: Yes many kinds of software today don?t do much learning, but we do have > many real systems that do learn, usually based on statistics. (We also know > of many software systems where the object code is much larger than the > source code for other reasons.) So if you think that makes a huge > difference, then imagine instead that someone gave you dozens of examples > of statistical analysis code from decades ago. You?d have the same problem. > ### Again, this is reasoning by analogy. I can only again caution against trusting conclusions based on this kind of reasoning. -------------- > > You don?t know that human brains are any more modular than is typical > software. You don?t know that it only embodies a small number of > principles, without masses of other implementation details also required > for it work. And you don?t know that the many different parts of the brain > are all written in the same ?language?. > ### To the contrary. There are already many BMIs that meaningfully access both input and output from very diverse cortical areas relatively high in the hierarchy (visual, motor). This implies that the cortical language is accessible, it is accessible throughout the cortex, and it embodies a sufficiently small number of principles as to be accessed even by our still crude technology. ------------------ This one datum doesn?t indicate that the brain is any more modular that > most software systems. Saying it is a ?different type? and thus vastly > easier to understand and modify just sounds like wishful thinking. > ### Saying "different type" is a conclusion, not a premise of my reasoning. Here is another neat datum: The "movies" of visual imagery reconstructed from fMRI images of human cortex. This directly implies that human mind states are highly accessible, and reasoning by analogy is not needed to reach this conclusion. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:07:37 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 13:07:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:44 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?It was, oh, about 30 years ago or so that my local electronics fixit guy > told me to hang on the my electronic products like my microwave, and fix > them as long as they can be fixed because they were putting cheaper parts > into even the top of the line models. I have a power amp whose transformer > weighs more than several new receivers - about 40 pounds. It will live a > lot longer than I will.? McIntosh. Pay for what you get works at times. > At premium levels. > Sure, you don't always want the best quality widget. A McIntosh smart phone that cost $20k and weighed five pounds would be sort of pointless. But what can you do? My B and D dustbuster battery gave out (my second and > reconditioned one) and it will cost me $35 to replace it, more than several > B and D new dustbuster models. How to decide? > Dust pan and whisk broom? :-) B&D is known to produce a decently-performing product of fairly low quality. They don't want you to buy replacement batteries, obviously. For products like TVs, why put quality parts in them when new technology > will replace it in a few years? You'll want the newer model - bigger, > better resolution, more features, and cheaper! > Yeah, until such time as the technology is as good as it's going to get. > I wonder what a car would cost if every part were the best that it could > be? Right now we've got 'Good enough for who and what it's for.' > $300k-$500k is the neighborhood. Rolls Royce, now owned by BMW. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 17:21:14 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:21:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Phoebus cartel/was Re: I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2016, at 9:10 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 10:39 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 spike wrote: > > > >>> There is another factor here: we always assume growth. > > > > A pretty good long tern assumption if technological progress doesn't stop dead in its tracks. > > There's an interesting article in The New Yorker about LED "light bulbs" and planned obsolescence: > > http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/the-l-e-d-quandary-why-theres-no-such-thing-as-built-to-last > > I'm not sure it's safe to equate technological progress with economic growth. Didn't the Phoebus cartel faced competition? And didn't it also rely on patent protection, a government intervention into the market? See also: http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/history/the-great-lightbulb-conspiracy Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Jul 21 17:21:43 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:21:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <028901d1e374$5a3fb0d0$0ebf1270$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 10:00 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Dave Sill > wrote: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:34 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: ?>>? I will hang around, though?. ?> ? Please do. I don't always respond to your postings but they're always worthwhile. ?I agree. John K Clark? Agree as well. BillW, when we have experts in fields disparate from the ExI mainstream, a lack of response is not so much a lack of interest but rather a lack of expertise in the field to make a contribution. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjv2006 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:11:53 2016 From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 11:11:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: Capital can be raised by sale of equity. Debt can be convenient, but is hardly necessary. On Jul 20, 2016 5:51 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > > ?>> ? >>> And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. >>> >> >> ?> ? >> Why not? >> > > ? > Capitalism is about capital, > ? > If I invent a brilliant new > ? > widget > ? > I'm going to need capital to mass produce them, so if I don't have the > capital > ?to do that ? > I'm going to have to borrow some. And if I borrow something I'm going to > have to give it back > ?,? > and that means I've incurred a debt. Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't > exist, even renaissance Italy wouldn't have existed without its banks. > > ? John K Clark? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 18:45:18 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:45:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: > ?> ? > Capital can be raised by sale of equity. Debt can be convenient, but is > hardly necessary. > > ?There is no fundamental difference. When a bank loans you ?money to buy a house the bank is in effect forming a partnership with you and taking an equity position on your future earning potential. Or you can think of it as issuing Van Sickle ? bonds that the bank buys, and you then use the money the bank gave you for the bonds to get your house. The future earning potential of my invention or the future earning potential of my salary, It's the same thing. ? S haria law ? takes a dim view of debt and charging of interest, but it's odd that so many Extropians and fans of capitalism seem to agree. ? John K Clark > > On Jul 20, 2016 5:51 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > >> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: >> >> ?>> ? >>>> And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. >>>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> Why not? >>> >> >> ? >> Capitalism is about capital, >> ? >> If I invent a brilliant new >> ? >> widget >> ? >> I'm going to need capital to mass produce them, so if I don't have the >> capital >> ?to do that ? >> I'm going to have to borrow some. And if I borrow something I'm going to >> have to give it back >> ?,? >> and that means I've incurred a debt. Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't >> exist, even renaissance Italy wouldn't have existed without its banks. >> >> ? John K Clark? >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:36:40 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:36:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? Message-ID: The shooter in Baton Rouge was killed by a pound of C4 carried by a bomb disposal robot. As far as I know, this is the first killing of anyone by a robot in the USA. Is it? Does this happen overseas or anywhere you know? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:40:40 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:40:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The shooter in Baton Rouge was killed by a pound of C4 carried by a bomb > disposal robot. As far as I know, this is the first killing of anyone by a > robot in the USA. > > Is it? Does this happen overseas or anywhere you know? > Do drones count? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:43:19 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:43:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy wouldn't have existed without its banks. ? John K Clark? OK - but when a company gets very large, say like GE, they can finance their own R and D without having to issue stocks or bonds. True? Then why don't they go private so they can avoid all sorts of regulation and can avoid paying dividends? In cases like this I see no advantage to debt. bill w On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 1:45 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Stephen Van Sickle > wrote: > >> ?> ? >> Capital can be raised by sale of equity. Debt can be convenient, but is >> hardly necessary. >> >> ?There is no fundamental difference. When a bank loans you ?money to > buy a house the bank is in effect forming a partnership with you and taking > an equity position on your future earning potential. Or you can think of it > as issuing > Van Sickle > ? bonds that the bank buys, and you then use the money the bank gave you > for the bonds to get your house. The future earning potential of my > invention or the future earning potential of my salary, It's the same thing. > ? > > S > haria law > ? takes a dim view of debt and charging of interest, but it's odd that so > many Extropians and fans of capitalism seem to agree. ? > > > John K Clark > > > > > >> >> On Jul 20, 2016 5:51 PM, "John Clark" wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 PM, Stephen Van Sickle wrote: >>> >>> ?>> ? >>>>> And without debt you couldn't have capitalism. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ?> ? >>>> Why not? >>>> >>> >>> ? >>> Capitalism is about capital, >>> ? >>> If I invent a brilliant new >>> ? >>> widget >>> ? >>> I'm going to need capital to mass produce them, so if I don't have the >>> capital >>> ?to do that ? >>> I'm going to have to borrow some. And if I borrow something I'm going to >>> have to give it back >>> ?,? >>> and that means I've incurred a debt. Without debt Silicon Valley >>> wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy wouldn't have existed without its >>> banks. >>> >>> ? John K Clark? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:45:53 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:45:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> The shooter in Baton Rouge was killed by a pound of C4 carried by a bomb >> disposal robot. As far as I know, this is the first killing of anyone by a >> robot in the USA. >> >> Is it? Does this happen overseas or anywhere you know? >> > > Do drones count? > > -Dave > ?Yes. But has a drone killed anyone in the USA? Or anywhere other than > the wars in the middle East? > ?Related question: are we the only ones using drones? Even if so, that will change, of course. We'll have then used against us soon, I would think.? ?bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 19:47:58 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 15:47:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Economic Value of Parenthood Message-ID: I recently read "How Civilizations Die (And Why Islam Is Dying Too)" by the Jewish author and economist David P.Goldman, and it prompted me to think about the economic value of parenthood. I am sure that this subject has been thoroughly analyzed by reasonable economists but a cursory examination of top google hits is full of references to the declining or absent economic value of children. It seems that a majority of writers see children as a pure economic/financial burden, which may or may not be offset by various emotional benefits. But this is an insane way of looking at the issue. Until the robot revolution changes everything, economic value creation needed to keep the retired alive requires both capital and labor. Childless (oops, non-PC term, should have written "childfree") contributors to pension plans provide only capital, as their savings generate buildings, machines, IP and other infrastructure. Parents, aside from similar pension savings, provide also the labor, and without their contribution all the capital will be just so much dead junk. There was a time when parents were able to directly capture a part of the labor value of their children, both through child labor and by receiving care in their dotage from their own children, rather than from children of strangers. In our economy, however, this connection between parenthood and economic benefits is largely severed. The childless derive almost as much from the labor of the next generation as the parents who actually produced this next generation. In effect, the childless are freeloading on the effort and spending of parents. So how much is a child worth? The average lifetime economic output of an American might be approximated (crudely) by GDP per capita x lifespan = 4.2 million dollars. In other words, each parent contributes 2.1 million dollars per child to the economic output needed to take care of him in his retirement. (Of course, this is a ballpark estimate, not intended to provide a thorough analysis of the various modifying factors) Obviously, we are talking about big money. Literally, our future depends on parenthood. And yet the popular writings are full of vitriol directed at parents, there are analyses of how parents are "deluding" themselves to justify the effort and cost of parenting, armchair economists are wringing their hands about the "irrationality" of having children. Unfortunately, our society fails at incentivising parenthood and punishing childlessness in a way that would be commensurate with the contributions and costs of each. Is it possible to devise such incentives? I could imagine the following: Parents receive a transfer payment for each child they have. The payment is used to fund a personal retirement plan, including disability benefits but beneficiaries are not allowed to borrow against it, or prematurely withdraw. The plan grows in proportion to the economic potential of their children, such that parents of inept, lazy, unemployed children get less, if any benefits. This provides an incentive against the breeding of the inept. The plan is independent of any private savings that each parent or non-parent might also have. Finally, the plan is financed by a general levy on economic activity, such as a VAT, and supplants social security and medicare/medicaid. In a libertarian society other mechanisms might be used. Since the costs of the plan would be borne by all, including the childless and single-child parents, but the benefits would accrue only to the parents of economically productive persons, the plan would incentivise responsible parenting, penalize childlessness and would not contribute to the growth of the underclass. Of course, it won't happen because parenthood is unpopular. Furthermore, the need for labor will soon precipitously drop, obviating the economic need for children. Yet I feel it was still useful to perform this analysis, if only to achieve clarity. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 20:01:38 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 16:01:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quick correction--the Dallas shooter was killed by the C4bot; the Baton Rouge guy was killed by shooting. Bill--I would make a substantial wager that the first drone killing in the United States will be carried out by the United States government itself, and not foreign belligerents. So yes, if you count government drone executions as "used against us", "us" being the people of the United States, then I agree with you that we can expect that to happen soon. The use of the C4bot is much less inconsequential than some people would think, and I'm glad, Bill, that you understand the importance of the psychic and procedural precedent it sets. We have now, so quietly that we who hear had to have been specifically listening for it, shifted into the paradigm that includes domestic drone executions. I expect to see more, especially given the two possibilities for our next president. (Not to say that Trump isn't MUCH WORSE than Hillary; he is, if only in terms of proximity to global nuclear war.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Jul 21 20:25:16 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 13:25:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 21, 2016 12:38 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > The shooter in Baton Rouge was killed by a pound of C4 carried by a bomb disposal robot. As far as I know, this is the first killing of anyone by a robot in the USA. > > Is it? Does this happen overseas or anywhere you know? Depends on how far you stretch "robot". Unmanned aerial vehicles - balloons, back then - were killing people back in 1849 courtesy of the Austrians vs. Venice. The US, UK, and Germany were testing remotely piloted flying bombs before WWII. Ones that don't self destruct to kill are relatively newer, but the one in Baton Rouge was another robot grenade. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Jul 21 21:41:05 2016 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:41:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> Message-ID: Currently, aging people tend to become set in their ways, less able and therefore less eager to learn new technologies. Certainly less inclined to take risks. This has some advantages; an older population is less crime-ridden, safer, etc. But it has an obvious cost to innovation. What I wonder is how much of the increased conservatism (with a small ?c?) of the elderly comes from simple experience (most ideas that young people think are ?new and revolutionary? have already been thought of, tried and seen to fail) and how much comes from the frailty of the body and deterioration of the mind? If we could increase healthspan, including brain cell health, perhaps older people (who would look, feel and think ?young?) would remain much more open to innovation, and at the same time be less inclined to take pointless risks or lose their tempers as easily in interpersonal relationships. Perhaps we could have the wisdom of age along with the innovations of youth? Imagine a scientist, an athlete, an artist, with one hundred years of experience in a field, or many fields, but the same enthusiasm and energy of a twenty year old. What would people like that be capable of achieving? If such an unprecedented combination were possible, I think the benefits of longevity would be even greater than the obvious economic benefits of not wasting billions on healthcare in the last year of life, or even of keeping people in the work force longer. Tara Maya > On Jul 21, 2016, at 8:29 AM, spike wrote: > > >> ... On Behalf Of Anders > Subject: Re: [ExI] net wisdom > > On 2016-07-18 18:04, Tara Maya wrote: >>> ... Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom >> (which is different from general intelligence) of the population >> increase? > >> ...Maybe. We know older people have higher conscientiousness scores.... > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > _______________________________________________ > > What concerns me is reduced adaptability as the population ages. We are > suffering from reduced adaptability in a time which demands more of it. > Nowhere is this more apparent than in public schools. Governments do not > seem to be adapting well to increasing involuntary transparency either. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads From tara at taramayastales.com Thu Jul 21 21:45:54 2016 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 14:45:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <00f101d1e2ea$995e6520$cc1b2f60$@att.net> Message-ID: <008A81E1-16D7-4823-83C5-78A936AD5493@taramayastales.com> Perhaps as we switch to a Maker economy, recycling can occur right at the household level, as things are tossed back into a decomposer, and then a new gadget is ordered up to be made along a new design downloaded from whatever designer or company one fancies. Tara > On Jul 21, 2016, at 9:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > dave There's an interesting article in The New Yorker about LED "light bulbs" and planned obsolescence: > > ?It was, oh, about 30 years ago or so that my local electronics fixit guy told me to hang on the my electronic products like my microwave, and fix them as long as they can be fixed because they were putting cheaper parts into even the top of the line models. I have a power amp whose transformer weighs more than several new receivers - about 40 pounds. It will live a lot longer than I will.? McIntosh. Pay for what you get works at times. At premium levels. > > But what can you do? My B and D dustbuster battery gave out (my second and reconditioned one) and it will cost me $35 to replace it, more than several B and D new dustbuster models. How to decide? > > For products like TVs, why put quality parts in them when new technology will replace it in a few years? You'll want the newer model - bigger, better resolution, more features, and cheaper! (BTW, Murdoch's prediction about the cost of DVDs turned out wrong. He said that next year (which was about 2005) they would cost nothing.) Close. Sell the players at cost so you can sell them the software, he said. > > I wonder what a car would cost if every part were the best that it could be? Right now we've got 'Good enough for who and what it's for.' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Jul 21 20:36:13 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 21:36:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> On 2016-07-21 20:36, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > The shooter in Baton Rouge was killed by a pound of C4 carried by a > bomb disposal robot. As far as I know, this is the first killing of > anyone by a robot in the USA. > > Is it? Does this happen overseas or anywhere you know? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenji_Urada Robert Williams at Ford Motors was killed by a robot 1979. From a robot ethics perspective the explosive bomb disposal robot wasn't that problematic: it was a remote controlled device not too different from a torpedo or a drone, all moral responsibility resting with the controller and their organization. The reason to be concerned is that it pulls towards even more militarization of police forces: after all, sending drones rather than guys in blue into danger seems to be a great thing from the police perspective. But mistakes happen... (The thing to be *really* worried about is automation of law enforcement. If state power can be implemented without any need of citizen participation, it becomes a very frightening thing indeed.) -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 02:54:10 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:54:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? >> Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy >> wouldn't have existed without its banks. > > > ?> ? > OK - but when a company gets very large, say like GE, they can finance > their own R and D without having to issue stocks > ?GE stockholders are the people who own GE. Who would you rather own the company than the stockholders? ?> ? > or bonds. True? > ?It doesn't matter what I think, all I know is that the capitalists at GE issued 39 billion dollars of debt just last September.? > > ?> ? > In cases like this I see no advantage to debt. > ?A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? ? John K Clark? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Jul 21 20:45:41 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 21:45:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] brain map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yup, this is great! The Brodmann areas have had a good run, but they were clearly rather obsolete guesswork. This is modern, shiny data-driven guesswork. It is interesting to see that they found individuals with atypical topology. People can really have different brains. Although the differences are not enormous and global, at least not in the test subjects they got. On 2016-07-21 17:16, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > ?http://www.nature.com/articles/nature18933.epdf?referrer_access_token=yW7fYJJ13ccJ1n-3a7WNkdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0O0Lx4Tw9Skr3oFpihwmWy3rOpIR_PgsKSYzJ0kckcyZVubMoWVn1F0nPCMpkB1956MF9lJEiw5_Q413j8UGvT7SIN0e02T4Cn8tL2UHeDImhhy_GhryTlsNa_uqdKFa14Wkxg0t0gqeZQoPECHuwq9q7xiR-xN6-eH5NoR2XjA4otezYYUPvflTVV0nrx-Ljtpfwe4YQ-fcHyoFzPRNF7xqKCLjUdLd-jmO4tjv0a7gGTBMxhxnTc_2Xo1BE_tn5c%3D&tracking_referrer=www.nytimes.com > > Way of my league but of interest to some on this list, I think. > > bill w? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 03:18:35 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2016 20:18:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Economic Value of Parenthood In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > I could imagine the following: Parents receive a transfer payment for each > child they have. The payment is used to fund a personal retirement plan, > including disability benefits but beneficiaries are not allowed to borrow > against it, or prematurely withdraw. The plan grows in proportion to the > economic potential of their children, such that parents of inept, lazy, > unemployed children get less, if any benefits. This provides an incentive > against the breeding of the inept. The plan is independent of any private > savings that each parent or non-parent might also have. Finally, the plan > is financed by a general levy on economic activity, such as a VAT, and > supplants social security and medicare/medicaid. In a libertarian society > other mechanisms might be used. > A simpler suggestion: a child's social security contributions generate a bonus 10% contribution to the child's surviving parents. This is not deducted from the child's contributions, but rather taken from the general fund, much as the general fund has so frequently violated the alleged "lock box" nature of social security that it may as well not exist. This way there's no grousing about stealing from not-yet-orphaned working adults. It pays for itself over time by encouraging a larger and more productive workforce, as you noted. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Jul 22 07:37:53 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:37:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> Message-ID: This is something I have been wondering about too. I am pretty confident that a fair chunk, of the conservatism is just biological responses to having less energy and a lowered learning rate. But I don't know if this explains most of it. Robin argued that there would be inevitable conservatism and fragility due to pure learning effects in his book. There is also the social angle. When you are older you are more likely to have a position/wealth/status to lose. So that might make you less willing to take big risks or support social change. On 2016-07-21 22:41, Tara Maya wrote: > Currently, aging people tend to become set in their ways, less able and therefore less eager to learn new technologies. Certainly less inclined to take risks. This has some advantages; an older population is less crime-ridden, safer, etc. But it has an obvious cost to innovation. > > What I wonder is how much of the increased conservatism (with a small ?c?) of the elderly comes from simple experience (most ideas that young people think are ?new and revolutionary? have already been thought of, tried and seen to fail) and how much comes from the frailty of the body and deterioration of the mind? > > If we could increase healthspan, including brain cell health, perhaps older people (who would look, feel and think ?young?) would remain much more open to innovation, and at the same time be less inclined to take pointless risks or lose their tempers as easily in interpersonal relationships. Perhaps we could have the wisdom of age along with the innovations of youth? Imagine a scientist, an athlete, an artist, with one hundred years of experience in a field, or many fields, but the same enthusiasm and energy of a twenty year old. What would people like that be capable of achieving? > > If such an unprecedented combination were possible, I think the benefits of longevity would be even greater than the obvious economic benefits of not wasting billions on healthcare in the last year of life, or even of keeping people in the work force longer. > > Tara Maya > > >> On Jul 21, 2016, at 8:29 AM, spike wrote: >> >> >>> ... On Behalf Of Anders >> Subject: Re: [ExI] net wisdom >> >> On 2016-07-18 18:04, Tara Maya wrote: >>>> ... Question: If people have a longer healthspan, will the net wisdom >>> (which is different from general intelligence) of the population >>> increase? >>> ...Maybe. We know older people have higher conscientiousness scores.... >> -- >> Dr Anders Sandberg >> _______________________________________________ >> >> What concerns me is reduced adaptability as the population ages. We are >> suffering from reduced adaptability in a time which demands more of it. >> Nowhere is this more apparent than in public schools. Governments do not >> seem to be adapting well to increasing involuntary transparency either. >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > Tara Maya > Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 07:48:41 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 00:48:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> Message-ID: <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> On Jul 22, 2016, at 12:37 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > This is something I have been wondering about too. I am pretty confident that a fair chunk, of the conservatism is just biological responses to having less energy and a lowered learning rate. But I don't know if this explains most of it. Robin argued that there would be inevitable conservatism and fragility due to pure learning effects in his book. > > There is also the social angle. When you are older you are more likely to have a position/wealth/status to lose. So that might make you less willing to take big risks or support social change. What about less chance of recovery or greater realization of the risk if you take a big chance and lose? Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 22 14:38:39 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 07:38:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> Message-ID: <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders . >.The thing to be *really* worried about is automation of law enforcement. If state power can be implemented without any need of citizen participation, it becomes a very frightening thing indeed.) -- Dr Anders Sandberg Ja. This is a multi-faceted question, but overall I am optimistic. If RC vehicles are available, the constables have a much greater potential to deliver non-lethal means of stopping the shooter. I can imagine several possibilities, such as a tranquilizer dart and sticky foam, a super-soaker that fires hot water, a stun-gun armed drone, an armored robot that draws fire from the perp but doesn't do much damage, that sort of thing. The Santa Clara County Sheriff's office has several different experimental devices they demonstrated at a local tech tech show. It can climb stairs, retrieve bombs, deliver bombs and so forth. The geek crowd loved it. If the agencies have that kind of tech available, I can see it as a safety item for both the force and the perp. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 15:27:13 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:27:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> Message-ID: Tara - Currently, aging people tend to become set in their ways, less able and therefore less eager to learn new technologies. Certainly less inclined to take risks. This has some advantages; an older population is less crime-ridden, safer, etc. But it has an obvious cost to innovation. Look at what has happened in a lot of new tech: computer chips with a lot of memory enable stuffing products with all sorts of uses most of us will never use. Smart phones: 200 page manual to tell you how to use all the apps in it. Cameras - ditto, but need a 1000 page manual. Computers - ditto - even more. Separate manuals for seniors. Separate phones and other things for seniors. Poor tech support for beginners. You get a computer error message 4857298004. You Google that and get tech people talking to tech people about how to edit the registry etc. Incomprehensible to the ordinary person. All in all, new tech requires far more of our time to learn how to use the things. 50s TV. Plug it in, orient the antenna, done. Phones - pick receiver, dial, done. Camera - adjust F stop, speed, focus, shoot. I have been dealing with new tech since 1965. I had to learn mainframe computer programs with no help at all from the computer department. Let's not even talk about how to set the pins on 80s Japanese printers as instructed by manuals written by people whose first language was not English. So new tech has not exactly been featured by easy to learn gadgets. Far more money, I should think, has gone into research, marketing and sales, than in just how people use the things. I have had to learn all these things and frankly I am tired of it. I want Direct TV or whoever to just give me the channels I watch. I want a camera that has only the few settings I use without sacrificing quality or resolution etc. Ditto phone, Ditto computer. OH, I promised to give you an update on my ChromeBook: does everything I want it to - email, Amazon, Google, and a few news sites completes my list of daily doings - no streaming or online games etc.. Very long battery life; easy to use; very light. I have a big desktop when I want to do other things, which is rare. Very highly recommended for those who requirements are few. Extremely cheap. In sum, it's far harder to be a senior in today's world. It is no wonder to me that many people just opt out of new tech. Tech companies need to hire people of different ages, different IQs, etc. to test their products. I guarantee the products would hit the streets quite different. More later on personality and intelligence changes in old age. bill w On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Jul 22, 2016, at 12:37 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > This is something I have been wondering about too. I am pretty confident > that a fair chunk, of the conservatism is just biological responses to > having less energy and a lowered learning rate. But I don't know if this > explains most of it. Robin argued that there would be inevitable > conservatism and fragility due to pure learning effects in his book. > > > There is also the social angle. When you are older you are more likely to > have a position/wealth/status to lose. So that might make you less willing > to take big risks or support social change. > > > What about less chance of recovery or greater realization of the risk if > you take a big chance and lose? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: > http://mybook.to/Gurlitt > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 15:35:35 2016 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 01:35:35 +1000 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> Message-ID: On 22 July 2016 at 06:36, Anders wrote: > > > (The thing to be *really* worried about is automation of law enforcement. > If state power can be implemented without any need of citizen > participation, it becomes a very frightening thing indeed.) > DROP YOUR WEAPON YOU HAVE TWENTY SECONDS TO COMPLY Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com irc.bluesphereweb.com #dna ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://tinyurl.com/he-is-right-you-know-jpg our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 15:37:51 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:37:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? ? John K Clark? But why not just save? Why pay any interest? Not applicable to houses or cars, I suppose (except in my case, since I don't buy cars worth more than $10k - you are correct - never new cars - depreciation curve - currently own 2002 Lincoln Town Car - wonderful car - you can't get a ride like this with the small new cars - 25 mpg highway) I would rather a company be owned by the people who made it great, not by the people who just supplied money. They get on the board and maybe direct policy in the wrong ways. bill w On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:54 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >>> Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy >>> wouldn't have existed without its banks. >> >> >> ?> ? >> OK - but when a company gets very large, say like GE, they can finance >> their own R and D without having to issue stocks >> > > ?GE stockholders are the people who own GE. Who would you rather own the > company than the stockholders? > > > ?> ? >> or bonds. True? >> > > ?It doesn't matter what I think, all I know is that the capitalists at GE > issued 39 billion dollars of debt just last September.? > > > >> >> ?> ? >> In cases like this I see no advantage to debt. >> > > ?A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a > dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history > of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? > > > ? John K Clark? > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 22 15:32:11 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:32:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 7:39 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: Re: [ExI] first robot kill? From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders . >.The thing to be *really* worried about is automation of law enforcement. If state power can be implemented without any need of citizen participation, it becomes a very frightening thing indeed.) -- Dr Anders Sandberg >.Ja. This is a multi-faceted question, but overall I am optimistic.spike Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the perp, perhaps realtime. ON that last part, I recall a fond memory of a television set in the lobby of the building where I worked for many years. Any time a crowd formed around that television, it would be two circumstances: any rocket launch and any realtime police chase. My colleagues being engineer types, would be seen cheering for the cops. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:04:56 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 09:04:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016, at 8:37 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > But why not just save? Why pay any interest? Not applicable to houses or cars, I suppose (except in my case, since I don't buy cars worth more than $10k - you are correct - never new cars - depreciation curve - currently own 2002 Lincoln Town Car - wonderful car - you can't get a ride like this with the small new cars - 25 mpg highway) Depends on the person and their vision. Some people have a lower time preference and greater aversion to risk, so they're net savers. Others don't. > I would rather a company be owned by the people who made it great, not by the people who just supplied money. They get on the board and maybe direct policy in the wrong ways. People supplying the money usually can do one of two things: get paid interest or get ownership. I'm not sure why supplying the money seems to you to be of no importance to making something great. Those who supply money are taking a big risk (up to losing all the money they put in) and making a choice that one project is a good bet compared to their other options (in other words, money sunk into one project can't be spent on wild parties;). Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 22 15:56:29 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 08:56:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> Message-ID: <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 8:27 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] net wisdom >?Tara - Currently, aging people tend to become set in their ways, less able and therefore less eager to learn new technologies. ?Look at what has happened in a lot of new tech: computer chips with a lot of memory enable stuffing products with all sorts of uses most of us will never use? bill w I am truly grateful I live in these times. Some of us here are old enough to remember the first commercial computer games, Pong and Asteroids. Perhaps you were one who had the original home game consoles which could do nothing but play Pong. Were you? I was. Remember how much fun we had with Pong? We played that little game until the paddles wore out. Such fun! Games became more sophisticated. We ended up with Nintendo and such, but there was one step I didn?t foresee: all these apps and games becoming free. Some of them are really excellent, and free! All our fondest dreams came to pass: really good software, so much of it available free, the limiting reagent being only the spare time to download them and learn to play. I am one who has a hard time getting my head around the concept that this much value can be had for nothing more than the time invested in downloading and learning the rules of the game. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 22 16:04:04 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 09:04:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: <024d01d1e432$b4615370$1d23fa50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 8:38 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? ? John K Clark? But why not just save? Why pay any interest? Not applicable to houses or cars, I suppose (except in my case, since I don't buy cars worth more than $10k - you are correct - never new cars - depreciation curve - currently own 2002 Lincoln Town Car - wonderful car - you can't get a ride like this with the small new cars - 25 mpg highway) I would rather a company be owned by the people who made it great, not by the people who just supplied money. They get on the board and maybe direct policy in the wrong ways. bill w Woohoooo! Excellent words BillW. I drive a 2003 TownCar and loooove that ride, so quiet, excellent stereo. Bought it 4 yrs old for a third of its original price, had it 10 years, total maintenance cost in that time less than 200 bucks. Solid, reliable as an anvil, engine in there the long way, drive wheels in back, as god and Mister Ford intended. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:27:16 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:27:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: I loved Pong. Wish I still had it. bill w On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 10:56 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 8:27 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] net wisdom > > > > >?Tara - Currently, aging people tend to become set in their ways, less > able and therefore less eager to learn new technologies. ?Look at what > has happened in a lot of new tech: computer chips with a lot of memory > enable stuffing products with all sorts of uses most of us will never use? > > bill w > > > > > > I am truly grateful I live in these times. Some of us here are old enough > to remember the first commercial computer games, Pong and Asteroids. > Perhaps you were one who had the original home game consoles which could do > nothing but play Pong. Were you? I was. > > > > Remember how much fun we had with Pong? We played that little game until > the paddles wore out. Such fun! Games became more sophisticated. We > ended up with Nintendo and such, but there was one step I didn?t foresee: > all these apps and games becoming free. Some of them are really excellent, > and free! All our fondest dreams came to pass: really good software, so > much of it available free, the limiting reagent being only the spare time > to download them and learn to play. > > > > I am one who has a hard time getting my head around the concept that this > much value can be had for nothing more than the time invested in > downloading and learning the rules of the game. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 16:35:24 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:35:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: <024d01d1e432$b4615370$1d23fa50$@att.net> References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <024d01d1e432$b4615370$1d23fa50$@att.net> Message-ID: People supplying the money usually can do one of two things: get paid interest or get ownership. I'm not sure why supplying the money seems to you to be of no importance to making something great. Those who supply money are taking a big risk (up to losing all the money they put in) and making a choice that one project is a good bet compared to their other options (in other words, money sunk into one project can't be spent on wild parties;). Regards, Dan The money people are trusting the people who made the company great (or promise to, in the case of venture). They are not the ones with the ideas and I would not let them veto anything except big parties, and occasionally those too should be held. I do think we should be very thankful to the venture capitalists but often they don't know how to evaluate new ideas. Just look at the wonderful books that were first turned down by, sometimes, dozens of publishers, before someone who really understood the book bought it. bill w On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 11:04 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Friday, July 22, 2016 8:38 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia > > > > A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a > dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history > of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? > > > > > > ? John K Clark? > > > > But why not just save? Why pay any interest? Not applicable to houses or > cars, I suppose (except in my case, since I don't buy cars worth more than > $10k - you are correct - never new cars - depreciation curve - currently > own 2002 Lincoln Town Car - wonderful car - you can't get a ride like this > with the small new cars - 25 mpg highway) > > > > I would rather a company be owned by the people who made it great, not by > the people who just supplied money. They get on the board and maybe direct > policy in the wrong ways. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Woohoooo! Excellent words BillW. > > > > I drive a 2003 TownCar and loooove that ride, so quiet, excellent stereo. > Bought it 4 yrs old for a third of its original price, had it 10 years, > total maintenance cost in that time less than 200 bucks. Solid, reliable > as an anvil, engine in there the long way, drive wheels in back, as god and > Mister Ford intended. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 17:01:32 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:01:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 11:37 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?>> ? >> A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow a >> dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the history >> of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? > > > ?> ? > But why not just save? > ? Because ? a ? dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow ?.? > ?>? > Why pay any interest? > ? Because the people who loan you the money also know that ? ? a ? ? dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow ?, although for various reasons (one of which is almost certainly the very small government deficit) the interest rate today is the lowest in over 200 years. ? ?> ? > I would rather a company be owned by the people who made it great, not by > the people who just supplied money. > ?But who made the company great? Good ideas are a dime a dozen, and ideas that seem good but really aren't are even more common. In the early 20th century everybody knew the automobile was a really great idea, but hundreds of companies in the USA made cars, which one should you invest in? You'd better pick smart because although the industry has grown astronomically today only 3 companies have survived. In the late 1970s everybody knew a home computer was a great idea and the smart money said to take advantage of that by investing in IBM or ATT, but the really really smart money said Microsoft or Apple. A successful capitalist is someone who is skilled in asset management, and probably the most important part of that is knowing when to loan money and to who, and when to borrow money and from who. ? ? John K Clark? > They get on the board and maybe direct policy in the wrong ways. > > bill w > > On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 9:54 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>>> Without debt Silicon Valley wouldn't exist, even renaissance Italy >>>> wouldn't have existed without its banks. >>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> OK - but when a company gets very large, say like GE, they can finance >>> their own R and D without having to issue stocks >>> >> >> ?GE stockholders are the people who own GE. Who would you rather own the >> company than the stockholders? >> >> >> ?> ? >>> or bonds. True? >>> >> >> ?It doesn't matter what I think, all I know is that the capitalists at GE >> issued 39 billion dollars of debt just last September.? >> >> >> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> In cases like this I see no advantage to debt. >>> >> >> ?A dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow and you can borrow >> a dollar today at a lower interest rate than at any other time in the >> history of the USA, so I can sure think of a advantage to debt. ? >> >> >> ? John K Clark? >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 17:52:06 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:52:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016 8:28 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > I have had to learn all these things and frankly I am tired of it. I want Direct TV or whoever to just give me the channels I watch. I want a camera that has only the few settings I use without sacrificing quality or resolution etc. Ditto phone, Ditto computer. Those exist (such as the ChromeBook you mention). You have to specifically look for them, since they're not the common choice, but that's not hard. Just stay away from the newest and latest, and search customer reviews for ones that have proven to have the qualities you wish. Let other people beta test them for you. (Meanwhile, you're probably beta testing in the limited subdomain you do have the patience for - whatever your current field of interest is. Others will wait for your opinion in that field, just as you wait for theirs in their field.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:03:24 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:03:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016 9:28 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > I loved Pong. Wish I still had it. bill w http://www.ponggame.org/ Among many, many others. Go there whenever you want a game. So long as the classics are still beloved, they are hosted by their fans such that they can be experienced again, and shared with those who never (yet) knew them. This applies to most fields of art these days, for which copies survived long enough to be uploaded. The hope is that this will one day be true of people too. Most people are fans enough of themselves. (The rest...well, immortality's not for everyone. Some truly will prefer finite existence.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 18:07:22 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:07:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016 8:47 AM, "spike" wrote: > Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the perp, perhaps realtime. Which raises its own problems, but those are being dealt with today. See "police body cameras", specifically the arguments for and against public release of footage from an encounter - especially if potentially lethal force was involved. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:21:47 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 12:21:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I Miss The King of Extropia In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <20160720194918.GC7327@nosyntax.net> <024d01d1e432$b4615370$1d23fa50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016, at 9:35 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > People supplying the money usually can do one of two things: get paid interest or get ownership. I'm not sure why supplying the money seems to you to be of no importance to making something great. Those who supply money are taking a big risk (up to losing all the money they put in) and making a choice that one project is a good bet compared to their other options (in other words, money sunk into one project can't be spent on wild parties;). > > Regards, > > Dan > > The money people are trusting the people who made the company great (or promise to, in the case of venture). They are not the ones with the ideas and I would not let them veto anything except big parties, and occasionally those too should be held. It's their (those risking their money) judgment that a specific project -- and not something else -- might be great. So they're active participants in the process -- not passive ones. Sure, they might not originate all the ideas, but they're making a decision that a particular idea and the people involved will work out. Just hatching an idea, too, means very little if you can't bring it to fruition. You can dream up, say, a nice mission to colonize Mars or upload human minds. But if you can't implement it, then it only makes for some nice discussions. > I do think we should be very thankful to the venture capitalists but often they don't know how to evaluate new ideas. Just look at the wonderful books that were first turned down by, sometimes, dozens of publishers, before someone who really understood the book bought it. I'm not and was not arguing about their ability to make accurate forecast, but I was saying why they might, in the case of not being mere lenders* (or giving charity), habe a good reason to want ownership: it's their money, and they can choose other things to spend it on. (And not just wild parties. I was trying to add levity, but they could choose other projects. For instance, if I had saved up or earned millions of my own, I might choose myriads of different things to invest that in, including who knows how many different transhumanist projects.) And that they might fail is a weak argument. Even in the case of publishing, publishers often fail, but they get it right often enough. But it is their money they're risking. The confident author who disagrees with them has the option of self-publishing and risking her or his own capital. Sometimes they succeed, though I know literally dozens of self-published authors who aren't filling their soup bowl off their self-published books. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 19:51:01 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 12:51:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Virtue signaling? Message-ID: https://fee.org/articles/virtue-signaling-why-political-debates-on-the-internet-are-so-often-pointless/ I think this definitely applies outside political discussions. I reckon a related question could be: Is such signaling always bad? Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Jul 22 21:30:32 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:30:32 +0100 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> Message-ID: <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> On 2016-07-22 19:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Jul 22, 2016 8:47 AM, "spike" > wrote: > > Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to > release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the > perp, perhaps realtime. > > Which raises its own problems, but those are being dealt with today. > See "police body cameras", specifically the arguments for and against > public release of footage from an encounter - especially if > potentially lethal force was involved. > I think mandating cameras and ensuring the footage cannot easily be manipulated is a good thing. But note that this is all about preventing human misbehavior and abuse of power. My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. Again, automated use of power that can be (publicly) monitored and held accountable is likely OK overall, but there is a real risk of either making it untraceable/secret, or scaling it up so that when the use becomes abuse there is no chance of responding democratically. These are situations we ought to work to reduce the probability of. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 22:18:59 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:18:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016 2:52 PM, "Anders Sandberg" wrote: > I think mandating cameras and ensuring the footage cannot easily be manipulated is a good thing. But note that this is all about preventing human misbehavior and abuse of power. > > My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. Some police officers would cite the extensive regulations and procedures they currently labor under and compare themselves to robots. (Legal code and computer code share many similarities.) And then there are the agents that go on autopilot when they think there is a threat, resulting in SWATting (when they are lied to in order to take advantage of this) as well as, I suspect, some of the recent police shootings. It might not be exactly what you were talking about, but there is a good chance that the solution to what you were talking about will come from this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 22:21:43 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:21:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> Message-ID: <0281F41B-7645-40C7-9A3C-FA0DD2FD7CCB@gmail.com> On Jul 22, 2016, at 2:30 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: >> On 2016-07-22 19:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> On Jul 22, 2016 8:47 AM, "spike" wrote: >> > Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the perp, perhaps realtime. >> >> Which raises its own problems, but those are being dealt with today. See "police body cameras", specifically the arguments for and against public release of footage from an encounter - especially if potentially lethal force was involved. > > I think mandating cameras and ensuring the footage cannot easily be manipulated is a good thing. But note that this is all about preventing human misbehavior and abuse of power. > > My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. Again, automated use of power that can be (publicly) monitored and held accountable is likely OK overall, but there is a real risk of either making it untraceable/secret, or scaling it up so that when the use becomes abuse there is no chance of responding democratically. These are situations we ought to work to reduce the probability of. I share your worry. In some ways, it's like folks believe power can be tamed by giving power ever more power, but watching it closely. But the incentives to watch are fairly low -- even ignoring hiding it automating stuff -- and the amount of data will likely be too high. I believe the safer way is simply not to concentrate the power in the first place (or dissipate what has been concentrated). And while we're focusing on policing, this isn't even bringing up -- which is what I think you're getting at -- other agencies within the state who are already operating furtively. The revelations by Snowden and others before and after him doesn't give me much hope here. I supposed the unexpected thing is that power hasn't been more abused -- or maybe it has and we're simply not aware. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 22:35:03 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:35:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: Adrian - The hope is that this will one day be true of people too. Most people are fans enough of themselves. (The rest...well, immortality's not for everyone. Some truly will prefer finite existence.) I would go for finite unless there's a way to erase memories. I was talking with a peer and it was saddening that both of us have lost interest in so many things, things we very much enjoyed. I am not talking about occasional things like dancing, which I love, and which osteoarthritis will not let me do anymore. I am talking about a lot of music which just doesn't do anything for me anymore. Some books too, surprisingly. Genre fiction is very limited and formulaic. I pick up one and quickly see the hooks, the good and bad guys, and can usually plot it myself, esp. after peeking at the ending. And there's only so many times one can read one's favorites -true of music as well. Classical music in the last 50 years really sucks. And it's right next to reading as a true love. I buy CDs and throw them away all the time - just looking for something new and good. I love new and different and have always been very high on openness to experience. For instance, a trilogy by Cixin Liu is excellent (Three Body Problem the first book). Wish there were a lot more. Sorry if this is a downer for you, but you can see why I would not want to come back. It's too late anyway. The only thing possible is cryo and that's far too expensive for me, not to mention leaving my wife penniless. But I have really enjoyed life. It's been a good run. No complaints. Remember that when I am no longer here. Still have a good ways to go, I think. bill w On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 1:03 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Jul 22, 2016 9:28 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > I loved Pong. Wish I still had it. bill w > > http://www.ponggame.org/ > > Among many, many others. Go there whenever you want a game. > > So long as the classics are still beloved, they are hosted by their fans > such that they can be experienced again, and shared with those who never > (yet) knew them. This applies to most fields of art these days, for which > copies survived long enough to be uploaded. > > The hope is that this will one day be true of people too. Most people are > fans enough of themselves. (The rest...well, immortality's not for > everyone. Some truly will prefer finite existence.) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Jul 22 23:16:01 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 16:16:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Jul 22, 2016 3:36 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > I love new and different and have always been very high on openness to experience. For instance, a trilogy by Cixin Liu is excellent (Three Body Problem the first book). Wish there were a lot more. There is, but you have to look more widely. Try online texts - stuff people wrote and distributed digitally, but never put the money into publishing in a physical book. Being able to create your own content helps too. That way you can just make the kind of stuff you want (and perhaps share it if what you're into has any sort of sizable fanbase). Or just learn how to identify the elements - try looking up your favorite works on http://tvtropes.org/ and see how many of the aspects listed you noticed. (And if they missed any you know of, maybe add them to the work's article.) As I write this I am listening to music that did not exist a few years ago. This is easily the 10th, possibly 20th, time I have listened to this particular song in the past few months (partly because I have had need of something to drown out certain environmental noises). By this time a few years from now, possibly as early as next year, I expect I will have tired of it and moved on, perhaps to something that will come into existence between now and then. Over the next few days I shall be whipping up more stories - for fun this weekend, then an interview for CubeCab (which is both work and an attempt to fix a significant aspect of the world) next Monday. There is always more to discover, enjoy, and create. Stop doing that - or, worse, refuse to do that - for long enough and you start to die. That's no metaphor: stop being mentally active and the body begins shutting down. It happens faster the older you get, and there are other factors (stopping this shutdown does not grant immortality by itself), but staying active is the simplest life extension possible right now. If you think life is too boring, you can fix that (and not in the "creating disasters you have to clean up" sense)...and it may be worth your life to fix it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 00:17:27 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 19:17:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: Adrian - There is always more to discover, enjoy, and create. Stop doing that - or, worse, refuse to do that - for long enough and you start to die. That's no metaphor: stop being mentally active and the body begins shutting down. It happens faster the older you get, and there are other factors (stopping this shutdown does not grant immortality by itself), but staying active is the simplest life extension possible right now. Thanks! I am a very firm believer in use it or lose it. Especially sex - more for men than for women. Trying to contribute something of value or interest to this group is one mental thing I do. I can't just do nothing. Never been good at that. So I read and buy CDs and so forth. Read various philosophies in short form. I do sit too much. Finding something new and different is and should be rare, so I"ll keep looking. One trouble is that I am extremely picky. Bryant Gumbel once replied to a question about if given a hundred people how many he'd likely be interested in talking to, and he said none. I am not that picky, but it really takes highly intelligent people, like this group, to interest me. Not trying to appear to be more than I am, but I am excruciatingly honest with others and I hope with myself. One thing the internet has gifted me with is the software that suggests other books or music based on what I already bought or looked at. Wonderful - like belonging to several groups of one's own kind. The beta testers, as you said. Amazon's one and two star reviews are usually revealing. Don't worry about my brain. My body could use more work, and that helps the brain too. I'll be thankful for all the advice and recommendations I get. No pop music. If I thought anyone would be interested I'd recommend things all the time. Since I receive no feedback I've nearly stopped that. bill w . On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Jul 22, 2016 3:36 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" > wrote: > > I love new and different and have always been very high on openness to > experience. For instance, a trilogy by Cixin Liu is excellent (Three Body > Problem the first book). Wish there were a lot more. > > There is, but you have to look more widely. Try online texts - stuff > people wrote and distributed digitally, but never put the money into > publishing in a physical book. > > Being able to create your own content helps too. That way you can just > make the kind of stuff you want (and perhaps share it if what you're into > has any sort of sizable fanbase). Or just learn how to identify the > elements - try looking up your favorite works on http://tvtropes.org/ and > see how many of the aspects listed you noticed. (And if they missed any > you know of, maybe add them to the work's article.) > > As I write this I am listening to music that did not exist a few years > ago. This is easily the 10th, possibly 20th, time I have listened to this > particular song in the past few months (partly because I have had need of > something to drown out certain environmental noises). By this time a few > years from now, possibly as early as next year, I expect I will have tired > of it and moved on, perhaps to something that will come into existence > between now and then. Over the next few days I shall be whipping up more > stories - for fun this weekend, then an interview for CubeCab (which is > both work and an attempt to fix a significant aspect of the world) next > Monday. > > There is always more to discover, enjoy, and create. Stop doing that - > or, worse, refuse to do that - for long enough and you start to die. > That's no metaphor: stop being mentally active and the body begins shutting > down. It happens faster the older you get, and there are other factors > (stopping this shutdown does not grant immortality by itself), but staying > active is the simplest life extension possible right now. > > If you think life is too boring, you can fix that (and not in the > "creating disasters you have to clean up" sense)...and it may be worth your > life to fix it. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 02:12:57 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:12:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > > My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. > ### Yes, absolutely. There is a spectrum of automated abuse, with UnFAI Hell-Singularity at the evil extreme but there are other quite bad ones, such as an Immortal God-Emperor of Earth, a single, scientifically immortalized person in control of invincible robot armies, or perhaps an Aristo world, with a class of evil, sadistic Overlords oppressing the helots with absolutely no chance of an uprising succeeding, ever. Indeed, to cogitate on these issues we shall :) Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 02:29:59 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:29:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] net wisdom In-Reply-To: References: <002101d1e04d$68530570$38f91050$@att.net> <20160717224945.GA2004@nosyntax.net> <00de01d1e081$15761c00$40625400$@att.net> <20160718110750.GB17957@nosyntax.net> <008701d1e104$6982e5c0$3c88b140$@att.net> <99752D11-1133-46B0-AB2A-6651C9380808@taramayastales.com> <01d601d1e364$9bd928b0$d38b7a10$@att.net> <3CAFCB96-ED07-442E-984C-4A5D4509FC64@gmail.com> <024801d1e431$9d2c1f60$d7845e20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Classical music in the last 50 years really sucks. > ### 50 years? Try 300 hundred then! When in a sad mood, try these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIs11_R9MI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGQq3HcOB0Y or if you prefer something a bit more modern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1-TrAvp_xs Laments shall continue until morale improves. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Jul 23 05:13:56 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:13:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> Message-ID: <048201d1e4a1$043d7860$0cb86920$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 2:31 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] first robot kill? On 2016-07-22 19:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: On Jul 22, 2016 8:47 AM, "spike" > wrote: > Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the perp, perhaps realtime. >.My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. Again, automated use of power that can be (publicly) monitored and held accountable is likely OK overall, but there is a real risk of either making it untraceable/secret, or scaling it up so that when the use becomes abuse there is no chance of responding democratically. These are situations we ought to work to reduce the probability of. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Anders it is something I am thinking about with some urgency. Our upcoming election is asking us to choose between two power abusers, oy. I fear the whole notion of power abuse will filter down through the various levels of government. I can imagine a system where the onboard cameras receive a radio signal, so that viewers in the public can verify the video is being created in realtime with nothing deleted and nothing inserted. We can have independent third party cameras verifying position and time of bangs, that sort of thing. It could be that not many enforcement agencies have the money for this kind of equipment. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 05:47:11 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 22:47:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] first robot kill? In-Reply-To: <048201d1e4a1$043d7860$0cb86920$@att.net> References: <2ca0c0a6-c007-95d5-b288-7444b21f2618@aleph.se> <017701d1e426$c2996ce0$47cc46a0$@att.net> <01f601d1e42e$38214cb0$a863e610$@att.net> <3be17c82-51d5-dad5-2f0a-32daa38076c9@aleph.se> <048201d1e4a1$043d7860$0cb86920$@att.net> Message-ID: <8B4B318D-B82B-40F4-8E6C-F0F296117057@gmail.com> On Jul 22, 2016, at 10:13 PM, spike wrote: > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders Sandberg > Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 2:31 PM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: Re: [ExI] first robot kill? > > On 2016-07-22 19:07, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Jul 22, 2016 8:47 AM, "spike" wrote: > > Partial alleviation of the problem: require the constables to release the video and audio of the encounter between the drone and the perp, perhaps realtime? > > > > >?My concern was automation making abuse of power automatable. Again, automated use of power that can be (publicly) monitored and held accountable is likely OK overall, but there is a real risk of either making it untraceable/secret, or scaling it up so that when the use becomes abuse there is no chance of responding democratically. These are situations we ought to work to reduce the probability of. > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > > > Anders it is something I am thinking about with some urgency. Our upcoming election is asking us to choose between two power abusers, oy. I fear the whole notion of power abuse will filter down through the various levels of government. > > I can imagine a system where the onboard cameras receive a radio signal, so that viewers in the public can verify the video is being created in realtime with nothing deleted and nothing inserted. We can have independent third party cameras verifying position and time of bangs, that sort of thing. It could be that not many enforcement agencies have the money for this kind of equipment. The thing is not that it's impossible to have such a system, but that the interests of the 'enforcement agencies' go against it and when you have all the gear in place for automation it seems like a relatively easy thing to abuse. On the former, enforcement agencies have routinely thwarted attempts to monitor them (and often get a free pass anyhow since judges and prosecutors are on the same team* and the public (as in serving in grand juries( is almost never concerned with abuse of power**). On the latter, it's a scary prospect that if you can automate policing there's no reason why that can't be more like "1984" than what we have now. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book, "The Late Mr. Gurlitt," at: http://mybook.to/Gurlitt * Separation of powers is a fantasy when everyone works for the same side. ** Despite any misgivings you or I might have, most people seem to have no problem with abuse of power. It's a minor issue, especially when they're afraid of foreigners, terrorists, and violent crime -- despite none of these being a big problem here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Jul 23 16:32:58 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 12:32:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Case A-2643 Message-ID: I finally got to read my May-June copy of Cryonics, and I found an interesting update on the case of Kim Suozzi. It appears that the initial estimates of poor or negligible cryoprotectant perfusion were incorrect and based on a reanalysis of CT images with calibrated data the actual perfusion was quite good, if not perfect. The interesting part is that apparently good perfusion was achieved with minimal brain dehydration, as judged by lack of shrinkage. The update theorizes that this may have been due to an opening of the blood-brain barrier, possibly caused by the combination of neoplasm (brain tumor) and 1 hour of warm ischemia before perfusion. This observation opens a fascinating research opportunity - if it is true that an opening of the blood-brain barrier allows vitrification without dehydration-related shrinkage, then it may be useful to intentionally open the BBB before perfusion. Lack of shrinkage in a vitrified tissue may make it easier to perform scanning for uploading, and perhaps might prevent some loss of information. There are drugs that open the BBB, which is not useful for most cases of cryopreservation but they might allow easy testing of the idea in animals. If benefits of BBB opening were to be confirmed in animals, then other techniques could be developed for use in patients, for example ultrasound-assisted BBB disruption. More research is needed. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 23 21:36:50 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 22:36:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Case A-2643 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c7ee057-7b71-cd21-ca9f-c2221564c853@aleph.se> This makes a great deal of sense if one abandons the "try to keep tissue naturally revivable" approach and goes for "preserve information well, darn the viability" approach. What drugs open the BBB? A cursory scan didn't show me anything. Using ultrasound to do it might be somewhat risky and likely is too focal. On 2016-07-23 17:32, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > I finally got to read my May-June copy of Cryonics, and I found an > interesting update on the case of Kim Suozzi. It appears that the > initial estimates of poor or negligible cryoprotectant perfusion were > incorrect and based on a reanalysis of CT images with calibrated data > the actual perfusion was quite good, if not perfect. > > The interesting part is that apparently good perfusion was achieved > with minimal brain dehydration, as judged by lack of shrinkage. The > update theorizes that this may have been due to an opening of the > blood-brain barrier, possibly caused by the combination of neoplasm > (brain tumor) and 1 hour of warm ischemia before perfusion. > > This observation opens a fascinating research opportunity - if it is > true that an opening of the blood-brain barrier allows vitrification > without dehydration-related shrinkage, then it may be useful to > intentionally open the BBB before perfusion. Lack of shrinkage in a > vitrified tissue may make it easier to perform scanning for uploading, > and perhaps might prevent some loss of information. > > There are drugs that open the BBB, which is not useful for most cases > of cryopreservation but they might allow easy testing of the idea in > animals. If benefits of BBB opening were to be confirmed in animals, > then other techniques could be developed for use in patients, for > example ultrasound-assisted BBB disruption. > > More research is needed. > > Rafa? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 02:14:04 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 22:14:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Case A-2643 In-Reply-To: <1c7ee057-7b71-cd21-ca9f-c2221564c853@aleph.se> References: <1c7ee057-7b71-cd21-ca9f-c2221564c853@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Anders Sandberg wrote: > > > What drugs open the BBB? A cursory scan didn't show me anything. Using > ultrasound to do it might be somewhat risky and likely is too focal. > ### There is some research on intentional opening of BBB in the context of drug delivery to brain tumors. I found a number of articles on borneol, which seems to have a reasonably targeted effect on BBB without severe general toxicity. There are a few articles on various biologics that target the activity of BBB-related proteins such as ZO-1, occludin, claudin, caveolin. Borneol seems to increase brain permeability of some drugs by more that 100%. I agree that ultrasound may be more difficult to apply evenly, however, there are clinically approved ultrasound devices that precisely disrupt small targets in human brains under real-time MRI guidance. They use phased arrays of sound transducers, up to a thousand or so, to deliver high-intensity ultrasound and cause thermal lesions but at lower intensities of sound they can be used to disrupt BBB without causing irreversible tissue damage. It might be possible to program the device to scan through the brain during perfusion. A very rich benefactor could buy an MRI machine for Alcor to allow non-invasive real-time monitoring of brain suspension. Wouldn't that be awesome? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 24 04:34:56 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 21:34:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] uploading in aeon Message-ID: <000001d1e564$bb3ccf70$31b66e50$@att.net> We talk a lot about uploading. What does that whole notion look like from the point of view of people who are not us? Here's a non-geek point of view: https://aeon.co/essays/the-virtual-afterlife-will-transform-humanity?utm_sou rce=Aeon+Newsletter &utm_campaign=82ea3371aa-Saturday_newsletter_23_July_20167_22_2016&utm_mediu m=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-82ea3371aa-68957125 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 14:03:33 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 15:03:33 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Humans are really bad at driving Message-ID: Federal regulators says car makers ?cannot wait for perfect? on automation ?Pre-market approval steps? could clarify responsibility in the future. Megan Geuss - 7/23/2016, Quote: On Friday, head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Mark Rosekind told an audience in Detroit, Michigan that car makers ?cannot wait for perfect? when it comes to developing and deploying self-driving car technology. The Wall Street Journal reported that Rosekind said automation would ?save people?s lives? in a time when auto fatalities have been up 8 percent since 2014. -------------- Even if self-driving cars kill people while improving their programs, they will still kill a lot less than human drivers. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 15:09:29 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 10:09:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans are really bad at driving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even if self-driving cars kill people while improving their programs, they will still kill a lot less than human drivers. BillK It won't take that. If they would put a breathalyzer in every normal car and locked the starter when the gauge showed above the legal limit, I have no doubt that tens of thousands would be saved. I have no stats at hand, but believe that about half of fatal accidents involve a drunk driver. But no! We want to be free! Free to kill. Also, prevent starting until seat belts are fastened around all riders. Many fatal accidents involve people being thrown out of the car. We libertarians don't like being told what to do, especially we are likely to be safer than the average driver, but gee, folks, others are killing themselves and their children and pets by drinking and not fastening belts. I don't mind dying for my libertarian beliefs, but not this stupidly. I would charge someone with murder if a child was killed and not wearing a belt or the driver was drunk. Adults too - oh why not. bill w bill w On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 9:03 AM, BillK wrote: > Federal regulators says car makers ?cannot wait for perfect? on automation > > ?Pre-market approval steps? could clarify responsibility in the future. > Megan Geuss - 7/23/2016, > > < > http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/07/federal-regulators-says-car-makers-cannot-wait-for-perfect-on-automation/ > > > > Quote: > On Friday, head of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration > (NHTSA) Mark Rosekind told an audience in Detroit, Michigan that car > makers ?cannot wait for perfect? when it comes to developing and > deploying self-driving car technology. The Wall Street Journal > reported that Rosekind said automation would ?save people?s lives? in > a time when auto fatalities have been up 8 percent since 2014. > -------------- > > > Even if self-driving cars kill people while improving their programs, > they will still kill a lot less than human drivers. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Jul 24 19:07:04 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:07:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Humans are really bad at driving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c701d1e5de$91b1bce0$b51536a0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:09 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans are really bad at driving >?Even if self-driving cars kill people while improving their programs, they will still kill a lot less than human drivers. BillK >>?It won't take that. If they would put a breathalyzer in every normal car and locked the starter when the gauge showed above the legal limit, I have no doubt that tens of thousands would be saved. I have no stats at hand, but believe that about half of fatal accidents involve a drunk driver. But no! We want to be free! Free to kill?.bill w I heard something about that Muskmobile which slew its occupant which I haven?t time to research but someone here might already know. The accident was caused by a prole treating supercruise as autopilot. As I understand it, autopilot is made for keeping a safe distance from the car ahead and holding the lane on the freeway, but is not and was never designed to be used as an autopilot. The software then is not intended to recognize a truck passing in front at an orthogonal axis. Anyone here know the details? Perhaps Musk can set the supercruise to not operate on any road other than a freeway? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From test at ssec.wisc.edu Sun Jul 24 19:46:09 2016 From: test at ssec.wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 14:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? Message-ID: Last week during a panel at the Future of Mind Symposium: https://futureofmind.wordpress.com/ I discussed the work of Arto Annila: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0910/0910.2621.pdf http://www.helsinki.fi/~aannila/arto/natprocess.pdf Annila's thesis is that, in the context of the energy flow from a hot star into cold space, chemistry and life exist because they increase entropy. One response to the panel was to pose extropy as opposed to entropy. And the Wikipedia page: from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism includes this: The term 'extropy', as an antonym to 'entropy' was used in a 1967 academic volume discussing cryogenics[3]" Do folks in the extropian community see extropy as the opposite of entropy? We sometimes think of entropy in the context of cold space, where life and extropian activity would be a struggle against entropy. But Earth is close to a star, our sun, and our context is the flow of energy from that hot star out into cold space. Annila's point is that the entropy of that energy flow depends on whether the energy flows in a single jump from the very hot star to very cold space, or if it flows through a sequence of smaller jumps. And flow through a sequence of smaller jumps has higher entropy. Chemistry, biology, intelligence and any extropian organization are ways of channeling the energy flow through a sequence of smaller jumps, and thus increasing the entropy of the flow. So in our context, near a hot star, increasing extropy also increases entropy. Extropian activity on Earth is not a struggle against entropy, but a struggle for entropy. How does this view relate to extropianism? From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 20:22:21 2016 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 16:22:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Locally life is a battle against entropy. It does increases entropy for the overall universe but it reduces entropy inside the organism. The final battle though will be against entropy of the entire universe. On cosmological time scales intelligence will have to find ways to overcome entropy at the global level, by tunneling to other universes with less entropy or by hacking the laws of the universe. Extropy is the opposite of entropy, but it is not a well defined physical concept like entropy. It is more a philosophical idea about the tendency of intelligence life to create order and organization. https://lifeboat.com/ex/the.principles.of.extropy On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Bill Hibbard wrote: > Last week during a panel at the Future of Mind > Symposium: > https://futureofmind.wordpress.com/ > > I discussed the work of Arto Annila: > https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0910/0910.2621.pdf > http://www.helsinki.fi/~aannila/arto/natprocess.pdf > > Annila's thesis is that, in the context of the > energy flow from a hot star into cold space, > chemistry and life exist because they increase > entropy. > > One response to the panel was to pose extropy as > opposed to entropy. And the Wikipedia page: > from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism > > includes this: > The term 'extropy', as an antonym to 'entropy' > was used in a 1967 academic volume discussing > cryogenics[3]" > > Do folks in the extropian community see extropy > as the opposite of entropy? > > We sometimes think of entropy in the context of > cold space, where life and extropian activity > would be a struggle against entropy. > > But Earth is close to a star, our sun, and our > context is the flow of energy from that hot star > out into cold space. Annila's point is that the > entropy of that energy flow depends on whether > the energy flows in a single jump from the very > hot star to very cold space, or if it flows > through a sequence of smaller jumps. And flow > through a sequence of smaller jumps has higher > entropy. Chemistry, biology, intelligence and any > extropian organization are ways of channeling the > energy flow through a sequence of smaller jumps, > and thus increasing the entropy of the flow. So > in our context, near a hot star, increasing > extropy also increases entropy. Extropian > activity on Earth is not a struggle against > entropy, but a struggle for entropy. > > How does this view relate to extropianism? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:35:18 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 16:35:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] uploading in aeon In-Reply-To: <000001d1e564$bb3ccf70$31b66e50$@att.net> References: <000001d1e564$bb3ccf70$31b66e50$@att.net> Message-ID: Hi Michael One of the long time Extropians posted a pointer to your thoughtful Aeon article on uploading. The Extropians have been discussing uploading and related topics for the last 25 years. Even there, I am an outlier, making a case that marketing considerations will require uploading to work both directions. To me it is clear that if we have the technical ability to upload, it won't be any harder to reverse the process and put your uploaded mind/memories back in the meat brain after a weekend of hard partying in the uploaded realm. I wrote a short story about this ten years ago. http://www.terasemjournals.org/GNJournal/GN0202/henson1.html Charles Stross (early member of that community) published Accelerando about the same time. It's still well worth reading for the thoughts on uploading, forking and reconstituting. More recently Charles and Cory Doctorow wrote _The Rapture of the Nerds_. I won't try to summarize it, but there is a review here. www.npr.org/2012/09/06/159997020/you-dont-have-to-be-a-nerd-but-it-helps Finally, there are certain physical problems with uploading and running fast. The SF authors can get around such problem with wormholes, but our universe may not allow that, leaving us stuck the speed of light limitations. If that's the case, physics will leave us stuck with small spaces if we want to maintain a common culture. https://web.archive.org/web/20121130232045/http://hplusmagazine.com/2012/04/12/transhumanism-and-the-human-expansion-into-space-a-conflict-with-physics/ Best wishes, Keith Henson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:34 PM, spike wrote: > > > We talk a lot about uploading. What does that whole notion look like from > the point of view of people who are not us? > > > > Here?s a non-geek point of view: > > > > > > https://aeon.co/essays/the-virtual-afterlife-will-transform-humanity?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=82ea3371aa-Saturday_newsletter_23_July_20167_22_2016&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-82ea3371aa-68957125 > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Best wishes, Keith "Often, I'll write things as though they are trivial and/or TRL9. I understand that this is not the case, so please forgive my lazy and informal style." Suggested by anon From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 24 23:55:10 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:55:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 Giovanni Santostasi wrote: ?> ? > Locally life is a battle against entropy. > Entropy isn't always the enemy. Maximum information ? , or at least maximum ?information that intelligence finds ? interesting ?,? seem to be about ? midway between maximum and minimum ? entropy. Put some cream in a glass coffee cup and then very carefully put some coffee on top of it. For a short time the 2 fluids will remain segregated and the ? entropy will be low and the information needed to describe it would be low too, but then tendrils of cream will start to move into the coffee and all sorts of spirals and other complex ?and pretty ? patterns will form, the entropy is higher now and the information needed to describe it is higher ? too? , but after that the fluid in the cup will reach a dull uniform color that is darker than coffee but lighter than cream, the entropy has reached a maximum but it would take less ?interesting ? information to describe it. Another example is smoke from a cigarette in a room with no air currents, it starts out as a simple smooth laminar flow but then turbulence kicks in and very complex patterns form, and after that it diffuses into uniform featureless ?and very dull ? fog. ?I like the fact that entropy increases, if we ever get to the point where that doesn't happen anymore that would mean the universe has reached heat death. ? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 00:11:37 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 19:11:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like the fact that entropy increases, if we ever get to the point where that doesn't happen anymore that would mean the universe has reached heat death. ? ? John K Clark? A universe that from the very first instant is losing energy and dying. Bad design, I say. bill w On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 6:55 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 Giovanni Santostasi wrote: > > ?> ? >> Locally life is a battle against entropy. >> > > Entropy isn't always the enemy. Maximum information > ? > , or at least maximum > ?information that intelligence finds ? > interesting > ?,? > seem to be about > ? > midway between maximum and minimum > ? > entropy. Put some cream in a glass coffee cup and then very carefully put > some coffee on top of it. For a short time the 2 fluids will remain > segregated and the > ? > entropy will be low and the information needed to describe it would be low > too, but then tendrils of cream will start to move into the coffee and all > sorts of spirals and other complex > ?and pretty ? > patterns will form, the entropy is higher now and the information needed > to describe it is higher > ? too? > , but after that the fluid in the cup will reach a dull uniform color that > is darker than coffee but lighter than cream, the entropy has reached a > maximum but it would take less > ?interesting ? > information to describe it. > > Another example is smoke from a cigarette in a room with no air currents, > it starts out as a simple smooth laminar flow but then turbulence kicks in > and very complex patterns form, and after that it diffuses into uniform > featureless > ?and very dull ? > fog. > > ?I like the fact that entropy increases, if we ever get to the point where > that doesn't happen anymore that would mean the universe has reached heat > death. ? > > > ? John K Clark? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 00:48:34 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 20:48:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] uploading in aeon In-Reply-To: References: <000001d1e564$bb3ccf70$31b66e50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 Keith Henson wrote: ?>? > To me > ? > it is clear that if we have the technical ability to upload, it won't > be any harder to reverse the process and put your uploaded > mind/memories back in the meat brain ?I think maintaining a meat brain would be much more expensive than maintaining a upload, and I doubt I'll be able to help Mr. Jupiter much so if he's nice enough to do anything with my liquid nitrogen cooled brain he's likely to do it on the cheap. Also I'm not sure he'd be happy with primitive monkey men like me running around at the same reality level as his hardware. And if he's kind and thinks the idea of me just being a upload would upset me then he just won't tell me. And if he didn't tell me how would I know? ? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Jul 25 04:07:15 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 21:07:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002a01d1e62a$081d2e00$18578a00$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 5:12 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? >>?I like the fact that entropy increases, if we ever get to the point where that doesn't happen anymore that would mean the universe has reached heat death. ? ? John K Clark? >?A universe that from the very first instant is losing energy and dying. >?Bad design, I say. bill w On the contrary sir. The universe does not lose energy. The energy gets spread more uniformly over time. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Jul 24 20:42:17 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2016 21:42:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Extropy opposite of entropy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79ba8201-1d7d-86a0-1b4b-0c44e1267b39@aleph.se> Yes, as far as I recall Extropy was more like a philosophical/poetic opposite of entropy (which after all gets roped in as a philosophical/poetic concept fairly often). It was never meant to be a thermodynamic variable. It is very similar to 90s attempts of formalizing complexity. None of them really worked: we can certainly recognize it, but it is not just Kolmogorov complexity just as information is not just Shannon information. I haven't read Annila before, but the idea that dissipative structures can sustain themselves thanks to energy flows and to some extent organize themselves as a response to entropy (evolution requires a selection step; in a reversible universe species unevolve at the same rates as they evolve) seems to be popular. I haven't seen his diversity argument, but I would assume Stuart Kaufmann would argue something similar? I am also reminded of Eric Chaisson's claim that we over the history of the universe see systems with greater energy rate density - maybe evolving dissipative processes become better at dissipation. Now, the key questions are (1) whether this is a useful way of thinking about complex systems, (2) why this tendency for greater dissipation seems to be so universal, (3) whether this corresponds to anything of value, and (4) if we should try to interfere. My own stab at (3) would be that if this kind of process produces contingent, diverse patterns that may give value insofar diversity has value (I think it does), but more importantly by giving rise to observers that can experience value - moral patients and agents. Now, this does not imply on its own that we should interfere, but if something like total utilitarianism is correct that in addition implies that we should try to boost the formation of observers (much more philosophical footwork is needed to argue that we should go for complex observers rather than lots of happy microbes). Other metaethical theories combined with (3) may produce some rather different answers to (4). Negative utilitarians might actually want to stop the process if it produces pain, for example. On 2016-07-24 20:46, Bill Hibbard wrote: > Last week during a panel at the Future of Mind > Symposium: > https://futureofmind.wordpress.com/ > > I discussed the work of Arto Annila: > https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0910/0910.2621.pdf > http://www.helsinki.fi/~aannila/arto/natprocess.pdf > > Annila's thesis is that, in the context of the > energy flow from a hot star into cold space, > chemistry and life exist because they increase > entropy. > > One response to the panel was to pose extropy as > opposed to entropy. And the Wikipedia page: > from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism > > includes this: > The term 'extropy', as an antonym to 'entropy' > was used in a 1967 academic volume discussing > cryogenics[3]" > > Do folks in the extropian community see extropy > as the opposite of entropy? > > We sometimes think of entropy in the context of > cold space, where life and extropian activity > would be a struggle against entropy. > > But Earth is close to a star, our sun, and our > context is the flow of energy from that hot star > out into cold space. Annila's point is that the > entropy of that energy flow depends on whether > the energy flows in a single jump from the very > hot star to very cold space, or if it flows > through a sequence of smaller jumps. And flow > through a sequence of smaller jumps has higher > entropy. Chemistry, biology, intelligence and any > extropian organization are ways of channeling the > energy flow through a sequence of smaller jumps, > and thus increasing the entropy of the flow. So > in our context, near a hot star, increasing > extropy also increases entropy. Extropian > activity on Earth is not a struggle against > entropy, but a struggle for entropy. > > How does this view relate to extropianism? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jul 28 21:56:18 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 22:56:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things Message-ID: Meet Luca, the Ancestor of All Living Things By Nicholas Wade July 25, 2016 Quote: A surprisingly specific genetic portrait of the ancestor of all living things has been generated by scientists who say that the likeness sheds considerable light on the mystery of how life first emerged on Earth. The nature of the earliest ancestor of all living things has long been uncertain because the three great domains of life seemed to have no common point of origin. The domains are those of the bacteria, the archaea and the eukaryotes. Archaea are bacteria-like organisms but with a different metabolism, and the eukaryotes include all plants and animals. Specialists have recently come to believe that the bacteria and archaea were the two earliest domains, with the eukaryotes emerging later. That opened the way for a group of evolutionary biologists, led by William F. Martin of Heinrich Heine University in D?sseldorf, Germany, to try to discern the nature of the organism from which the bacterial and archaeal domains emerged. Genes are adapted to an organism?s environment. So Dr. Martin hoped that by pinpointing the genes likely to have been present in Luca, he would also get a glimpse of where and how Luca lived. ?I was flabbergasted at the result, I couldn?t believe it,? he said. The 355 genes pointed quite precisely to an organism that lived in the conditions found in deep sea vents, the gassy, metal-laden, intensely hot plumes caused by seawater interacting with magma erupting through the ocean floor. ------- Dr. Sutherland and others have no quarrel with Luca?s being traced back to deep sea vents. But that does not mean life originated there, they say. Life could have originated anywhere and later been confined to a deep sea environment because of some catastrophic event like the Late Heavy Bombardment, which occurred 4 billion to 3.8 billion years ago. This was a rain of meteorites that crashed into Earth with such force that the oceans were boiled off into an incandescent mist. Life is so complex it seems to need many millions of years to evolve. Yet evidence for the earliest life dates to 3.8 billion years ago, as if it emerged almost the minute the bombardment ceased. A refuge in the deep ocean during the bombardment would allow a longer period in which life could have evolved. But chemists like Dr. Sutherland say they are uneasy about getting prebiotic chemistry to work in an ocean, which powerfully dilutes chemical components before they can assemble into the complex molecules of life. Dr. Sutherland, working from basic principles of chemistry, has found that ultraviolet light from the sun is an essential energy source to get the right reactions underway, and therefore that land-based pools, not the ocean, are the most likely environment in which life began. -------- BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Jul 28 21:59:00 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 14:59:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> Message-ID: <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Thu Jul 28 23:05:05 2016 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 16:05:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike: That would be very nice! Probably the easiest way would be for generous users to use PayPal. My address associated with that is " max at maxmore.com". However, the old ExI PayPal account is still active (and very empty): The address for that is "more at extropy.org" For the renewal (one year) and reinstatement fee, I paid $78.97. --Max On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM, spike wrote: > > > OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted > me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark > pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and > doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the > ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for > this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. > > > > I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted > before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) > to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams > anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 29 04:21:12 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 21:21:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00d101d1e950$a4a53140$edef93c0$@att.net> From: maxalcor at gmail.com [mailto:maxalcor at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Max More Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:05 PM To: spike Cc: John Klos ; ExI chat list Subject: Re: Is the list down? Spike: That would be very nice! Probably the easiest way would be for generous users to use PayPal. My address associated with that is "max at maxmore.com ". However, the old ExI PayPal account is still active (and very empty): The address for that is "more at extropy.org " For the renewal (one year) and reinstatement fee, I paid $78.97. --Max OK cool, we start out with at least thirty bucks: John Clark donated the ten he won from me for Mrs. Clinton escaping indictment, I matched his ten and doubled, so I will post John?s ten and my twenty. spike On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM, spike > wrote: OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? spike -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books &ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 11:45:31 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: <00d101d1e950$a4a53140$edef93c0$@att.net> References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> <00d101d1e950$a4a53140$edef93c0$@att.net> Message-ID: I just sent $50. -Dave On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:21 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > > > > > *From:* maxalcor at gmail.com [mailto:maxalcor at gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Max > More > *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:05 PM > *To:* spike > *Cc:* John Klos ; ExI chat list < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > *Subject:* Re: Is the list down? > > > > Spike: That would be very nice! Probably the easiest way would be for > generous users to use PayPal. My address associated with that is " > max at maxmore.com". However, the old ExI PayPal account is still active > (and very empty): The address for that is "more at extropy.org" > > > > For the renewal (one year) and reinstatement fee, I paid $78.97. > > > > --Max > > > > > > > > > > OK cool, we start out with at least thirty bucks: John Clark donated the > ten he won from me for Mrs. Clinton escaping indictment, I matched his ten > and doubled, so I will post John?s ten and my twenty. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM, spike wrote: > > > > OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted > me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark > pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and > doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the > ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for > this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. > > > > I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted > before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) > to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams > anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > Max More, PhD > > Strategic Philosopher > > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Jul 29 13:32:17 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 06:32:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> <00d101d1e950$a4a53140$edef93c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000601d1e99d$a1056e40$e3104ac0$@att.net> Cool Dave! We are sooo back in business. spike From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 4:46 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Is the list down? I just sent $50. -Dave On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 12:21 AM, spike > wrote: From: maxalcor at gmail.com [mailto:maxalcor at gmail.com ] On Behalf Of Max More Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:05 PM To: spike > Cc: John Klos >; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: Is the list down? Spike: That would be very nice! Probably the easiest way would be for generous users to use PayPal. My address associated with that is "max at maxmore.com ". However, the old ExI PayPal account is still active (and very empty): The address for that is "more at extropy.org " For the renewal (one year) and reinstatement fee, I paid $78.97. --Max OK cool, we start out with at least thirty bucks: John Clark donated the ten he won from me for Mrs. Clinton escaping indictment, I matched his ten and doubled, so I will post John?s ten and my twenty. spike On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM, spike > wrote: OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? spike -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books &ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 463 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 29 13:57:14 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 09:57:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is the list down? In-Reply-To: <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> References: <005901d1e6a5$e1425c70$a3c71550$@att.net> <001a01d1e91b$3ff896e0$bfe9c4a0$@att.net> Message-ID: I just sent $80 via paypal to max at maxmore.com John Clark On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 5:59 PM, spike wrote: > > > OK cool, well while the list was down, several of the chronics contacted > me and asked if we could donate to the upkeep and maintenance. John Clark > pledged his winnings from Mrs. Clinton?s non-indictment, I matched and > doubled, and several others have suggested they would donate to keeping the > ExI list alive. Max I don?t see why you are always stuck with the bill for > this. Many of us have benefitted from its continuing existence. > > > > I suggested to John in the very slim chance Mrs. Clinton is indicted > before 6 November, I would donate the ill-gotten gains (200 bucks I think) > to ExI-chat server maintenance. {8^D If not, I will kick in some clams > anyway. Max, shall we post it to your Alcor address? What is it? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 30 17:46:39 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for math neurologists - anders etc. Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/29/science/brain-scans-math.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits&_r=0 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 13:31:40 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 14:31:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Political correctness consequences Message-ID: At the risk of starting up the Trump / Brexit arguments again, this article from a financial blog seems to risk saying what the PC media avoid. Note that this is from a professional investor who has to forecast fairly well in order to make money. Why A Politically Correct West Ensures A Trump Victory In Global Trends by Chris MacIntosh July 29, 2016 Quotes: What we?re dealing with today is a crisis in political correctness. But the man on the street is no longer buying it. He?s not that stupid. He understands and sees with his own eyes, even if his rulers try to distract him. This is one reason that Brexit is taking place. A populace, increasingly distrustful of the establishment and horrified by the consequences of the actions already taken by the ruling class, look around them in search of someone who will say out loud what they whisper to each other behind closed doors. Brexit was a huge plus for Donald Trump. It provided legitimacy to the rhetoric of Trump?s campaign: ?Don?t vote for the establishment (Hillary), vote for me.? ?Let?s make America great again? speaks the same language that Nigel Farage was speaking. Importantly, Trump doesn?t pander to politically correct anything. ------------- Like him or loath him, Nigel Farage provided an increasingly horrified citizenry with a crystal clear message which never tried to pander to political correctness. A populace under attack (because Europe is most certainly under attack) found a level of honesty in the Brexit campaign, which was sorely lacking with the ?remain campaign? and they voted for it. When only right-wing demagogues are prepared to say what a politically correct establishment is unwilling to say, then it will be right-wing demagogues that are elected to power. Expect this trend to accelerate ? first bringing Trump to power in the US and followed by massive changes in Europe, something I?ll cover next week, including what I think is the easiest short in history and how it is likely to play out. ------------ BillK From giulio at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 13:37:36 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 15:37:36 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Political correctness consequences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The liberal "intellectual elites" should listen to this warning, and try to revers ethe trend. On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:31 PM, BillK wrote: > At the risk of starting up the Trump / Brexit arguments again, this > article from a financial blog seems to risk saying what the PC media > avoid. > Note that this is from a professional investor who has to forecast > fairly well in order to make money. > > > > Why A Politically Correct West Ensures A Trump Victory > In Global Trends by Chris MacIntosh July 29, 2016 > > Quotes: > > What we?re dealing with today is a crisis in political correctness. > > But the man on the street is no longer buying it. He?s not that > stupid. He understands and sees with his own eyes, even if his rulers > try to distract him. > > This is one reason that Brexit is taking place. A populace, > increasingly distrustful of the establishment and horrified by the > consequences of the actions already taken by the ruling class, look > around them in search of someone who will say out loud what they > whisper to each other behind closed doors. > > Brexit was a huge plus for Donald Trump. It provided legitimacy to the > rhetoric of Trump?s campaign: ?Don?t vote for the establishment > (Hillary), vote for me.? ?Let?s make America great again? speaks the > same language that Nigel Farage was speaking. Importantly, Trump > doesn?t pander to politically correct anything. > ------------- > > Like him or loath him, Nigel Farage provided an increasingly horrified > citizenry with a crystal clear message which never tried to pander to > political correctness. A populace under attack (because Europe is most > certainly under attack) found a level of honesty in the Brexit > campaign, which was sorely lacking with the ?remain campaign? and they > voted for it. > > When only right-wing demagogues are prepared to say what a politically > correct establishment is unwilling to say, then it will be right-wing > demagogues that are elected to power. > > Expect this trend to accelerate ? first bringing Trump to power in the > US and followed by massive changes in Europe, something I?ll cover > next week, including what I think is the easiest short in history and > how it is likely to play out. > ------------ > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 15:51:54 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:51:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Dogs_=28short_story_by_David_Rom=C3=A1n=29?= Message-ID: Perhaps we will have E-animals soon, and perhaps artificial life will take over. A short story by new Turing Church contributor David Rom?n. http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/31/dogs-short-story-by-david-roman/ From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 16:48:55 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 09:48:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Dogs_=28short_story_by_David_Rom=C3=A1n=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Perhaps we will have E-animals soon, and perhaps artificial life will > take over. A short story by new Turing Church contributor David Rom?n. > > http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/31/dogs-short-story-by-david-roman/ > Amusing take - starting with the ironic name - on territory we should all be familiar with. (We wouldn't have made the same ultimate choice, but immortality's not for everyone.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 16:56:51 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 18:56:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Dogs_=28short_story_by_David_Rom=C3=A1n=29?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here, it's the artificial cat that chooses immortality! "The other day we shared a cocktail (it still cracks me up to see a cat slurping alcohol) and he told me he?s concerned about his immortality. Not so much about the possibility that humans will go away, which is mostly a human worry, but others: what if he loses his money and can?t pay for another body at some point? " On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 8:51 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> Perhaps we will have E-animals soon, and perhaps artificial life will >> take over. A short story by new Turing Church contributor David Rom?n. >> >> http://turingchurch.com/2016/07/31/dogs-short-story-by-david-roman/ > > > Amusing take - starting with the ironic name - on territory we should all be > familiar with. (We wouldn't have made the same ultimate choice, but > immortality's not for everyone.) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 31 17:33:06 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2016 13:33:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Dolly and cloning Message-ID: Dolly the sheep was born 20 years ago and died at a relatively ?early age leading some to speculate there is an inherent flaw in the cloning process itself, but apparently that is not the case. The journal Nature Communications reports on 13 cloned sheep, 4 of which were derived from the same cell line as Dolly, they are aged between 7 and 9 years old (equivalent to a human in her late 60s or early 70s), and are all going strong and are still healthy for sheep of that age. It seems that Dolly was just unlucky, Kevin Sinclair the lead author of the study said of the 4 Dolly clones "They?re old ladies but very healthy for their age". http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2016/160726/ncomms12359/full/ncomms12359.html ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Jul 30 20:54:51 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2016 21:54:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] for math neurologists - anders etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The original paper can be found at http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/07/19/0956797616654912.abstract Pretty nifty. Of course, the task was largely set up so they roughly knew that some discrete steps were going to happen, but the statistical method seems pretty clever in teasing out what those steps look like and how many are necessary to describe the process. The main result is not so much the math processing (looks roughly like what I would have guessed) but the fact that one can segment it. On 2016-07-30 18:46, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/29/science/brain-scans-math.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits&_r=0 > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: