From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 00:21:57 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:21:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was: RE: self driving truck In-Reply-To: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> References: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 3:46 PM, spike wrote: ?> ? > So? my feeling is that the heavy lifting in government should be done at > the state level. But how could that ever come to be? A presidential or congressional candidate who says "I will do nothing to address the most important social issue of our age and I have no interest in the thing that makes you ?the ? angriest" will simply never get ? elected. ? They'd rather vote for the first dimwit they find with ?loud voice who promises simple solutions to complex problems. Incidentally there is now about one chance in 4 that the revolver aimed at our heads will go off a week from tomorrow. John K Clark . > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Tue Nov 1 00:48:07 2016 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 20:48:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> Message-ID: <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Spike wrote: >I have lived to witness the science of >aerodynamics become completely encoded; so much >theory became obsolete. Humans do not need to >master the intricacies of the science. Correct >aerodynamic calculations can be done by people >who know not what a shock wave is or why a shock >wave can reflect off of an oblique wave. A >person with a solid high school education can set up the model and run it. What can humans do to earn their keep is unclear. I'm only marginally confident that I know what *I* can do for the next two or three decades. My father was world-class in designing analog circuits. Then all everyone wanted was digital, even where analog could be 10^6 times faster for the problem. So the kids stopped learning professional-grade analog design. Which meant that when it became clear that analog was a better answer in some context, there was no one to hire. I spent many years acquiring prowess in (among other skills) precision programming. Squeezing a flagon of performance out of a shot glass. Then no one cared about saving space or time. Just throw more compute power at the problem. And it did make sense. People-time cost more than hardware. But it doesn't always. Especially as you go either bigger (exabyte analysis, trillion device networks) or smaller (molecular-scale computing) in your problem domain, you need people who appreciate bit tricks, instruction timing, etc. And most who know this stuff have left the field. This pattern may apply to you, Spike. The answer for us, specifically, and for segments of the larger population that are seeing the demand for their competencies disappear are maybe in asking: ? Who still needs what I've been doing all my professional life? In what ways am I a better fit than a punk kid or robot? ? What else am I good at that may be of longer-term value? One likely answer for me: Write more stories and less code. It's harder to find gigs in any kind of engineering the farther you get from forty. But I know personally several sf writers who did or still publish into their nineties. -- David. From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 01:01:24 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 18:01:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: <3ED9E84A-871B-4F67-AD90-863FC56ECA51@gmail.com> On Oct 31, 2016, at 5:48 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > Spike wrote: > >> I have lived to witness the science of aerodynamics become completely encoded; so much theory became obsolete. Humans do not need to master the intricacies of the science. Correct aerodynamic calculations can be done by people who know not what a shock wave is or why a shock wave can reflect off of an oblique wave. A person with a solid high school education can set up the model and run it. > > What can humans do to earn their keep is unclear. I'm only marginally confident that I know what *I* can do for the next two or three decades. > > My father was world-class in designing analog circuits. Then all everyone wanted was digital, even where analog could be 10^6 times faster for the problem. So the kids stopped learning professional-grade analog design. Which meant that when it became clear that analog was a better answer in some context, there was no one to hire. > > I spent many years acquiring prowess in (among other skills) precision programming. Squeezing a flagon of performance out of a shot glass. Then no one cared about saving space or time. Just throw more compute power at the problem. And it did make sense. People-time cost more than hardware. But it doesn't always. Especially as you go either bigger (exabyte analysis, trillion device networks) or smaller (molecular-scale computing) in your problem domain, you need people who appreciate bit tricks, instruction timing, etc. And most who know this stuff have left the field. > > This pattern may apply to you, Spike. > > The answer for us, specifically, and for segments of the larger population that are seeing the demand for their competencies disappear are maybe in asking: > > ? Who still needs what I've been doing all my professional life? In what ways am I a better fit than a punk kid or robot? > > ? What else am I good at that may be of longer-term value? > > One likely answer for me: Write more stories and less code. It's harder to find gigs in any kind of engineering the farther you get from forty. But I know personally several sf writers who did or still publish into their nineties. Excellent observation! And one reason why we should be a little humble when trying to come with top-down policy solutions. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 01:16:40 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:16:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 David Lubkin wrote: ?> ? > I spent many years acquiring prowess in (among other skills) precision > programming. Squeezing a flagon of performance out of a shot glass. Then no > one cared about saving space or time. Just throw more compute power at the > problem. And it did make sense. People-time cost more than hardware. But it > doesn't always. Especially as you go either bigger (exabyte analysis, > trillion device networks) or smaller (molecular-scale computing) in your > problem domain, you need people who appreciate bit tricks, instruction > timing, etc. And most who know this stuff have left the field. > ?There is a article about this in today's New York Times, your engineering skills may not be as obsolete as you think: ? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/31/technology/beyond-silicon-squeezing-more-out-of-chips.html?ref=business ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 01:16:23 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 21:16:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 8:48 PM, David Lubkin wrote: What can humans do to earn their keep is unclear. This "earning one's keep" is a pretty recent notion. For most of human history life was about self-sufficiency and very small cooperative groups. 7+ billion people won't be able earn a living via manual labor, manual skill, or artistic expression in a future where robots can do most of that better than humans. So maybe the population will crash dramatically or we'll move to a new system where earning a living isn't necessary. Who knows? Too say to say how things will shake out. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 02:09:34 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:09:34 +1100 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Tuesday, 1 November 2016, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 8:48 PM, David Lubkin > wrote: > > What can humans do to earn their keep is unclear. > > > This "earning one's keep" is a pretty recent notion. For most of human > history life was about self-sufficiency and very small cooperative groups. > 7+ billion people won't be able earn a living via manual labor, manual > skill, or artistic expression in a future where robots can do most of that > better than humans. So maybe the population will crash dramatically or > we'll move to a new system where earning a living isn't necessary. Who > knows? Too say to say how things will shake out. > When the robots are doing most things there will be more resources to share among the 7+ billion, even if each individual is on average less productive. Ideally, the increased wealth will be shared amongst all. But another possibility is that the rich may seek to eliminate the unproductive. Historically, the masses have been potentially useful to the rich and powerful, however contemptuous they may have been of them: kings needed subjects, conquerors needed soldiers, capitalists needed workers. But come the robots, the poor may be seen by the rich as at best a burden, at worst a threat. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 02:16:45 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:16:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:48 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > The answer for us, specifically, and for segments of the larger population > that are seeing the demand for their competencies disappear are maybe in > asking: > > ? Who still needs what I've been doing all my professional life? In what > ways am I a better fit than a punk kid or robot? > > ? What else am I good at that may be of longer-term value? > > One likely answer for me: Write more stories and less code. It's harder to > find gigs in any kind of engineering the farther you get from forty. But I > know personally several sf writers who did or still publish into their > nineties. > It has been observed, in software engineering, that the pace of change is such that one may see an entire operating paradigm - with complexity such that it might sustain an entire class of job in other industries - become popular, shine, and fade away in the span of roughly half a decade. This means a newly minted software engineer, on average, must switch "careers" by the time they are 30. This is not just an old person's problem. The trick, for myself and a large number of people, has been to learn how to learn: the tricks and techniques in picking up a new field and performing at least adequately, not repeating the well-documented basic mistakes of others (which requires enough humility to look up and read said mistakes before one attempts serious efforts in a new field), and acquiring effective training (most training that costs more than $100 - other than for parts and supplies that do not come from the trainer's company or business associates - is about paying for certification, not training) where practical (if you have time in advance, this is best, but there's no shame in learning on the job). But these tricks are not specific to software. It seems very likely they can be applied to other fields - moreso engineering and other practical careers, but also somewhat to management, various types of art, and other such fields. (This is not applicable to all fields: by the time one is old enough to need this, one is typically no longer a prime candidate for athlete or soldier. But many speculate that some of those exceptions - such as soldier - are likely to become far more automated, while others - such as athlete - may eventually be redefined by biotechnology until chronologically old people with the right assistance are once more able to compete.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 02:23:50 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:23:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > But another possibility is that the rich may seek to eliminate the > unproductive. Historically, the masses have been potentially useful to the > rich and powerful, however contemptuous they may have been of them: kings > needed subjects, conquerors needed soldiers, capitalists needed workers. > But come the robots, the poor may be seen by the rich as at best a burden, > at worst a threat. This seems unlikely, for "poor" is a relative term. Eliminate the poorest 50%, and what used to be the 50-75% range is suddenly the poorest 50%. Eliminate them...frankly, even before you eliminated the poorest 10%, most likely the bottom 99% would see the top 1% mean to eliminate all who are not (and some who are) within their personal social circles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 02:30:39 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:30:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was: RE: self driving truck In-Reply-To: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> References: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:46 PM, spike wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > > On Oct 31, 2016 8:01 AM, "spike" wrote: > > >>>?By that argument, why does money not flee the state & local? Adrian > > >>?Because we can?t run off with our house on our backs? spike > > >?So? That would equally true whether the state or the feds collected > property taxes. Why is it not okay for the feds to collect it, if states > collect it and that hasn't caused all (or even most) wealth to flee? > > > > The Federal government is a monopoly, but states must compete with each > other. > Incorrect. The arguments about capital flight if the federal taxes rise, are about capital flight to other countries (as well as to other states and local areas). This makes the US federal government not a monopoly for the subject at hand. Second reason: states are required to balance their budgets; the Fed is not > and cannot. > Irrelevant. We're talking about capital's response to taxes, not the reasons for taxes. > Any USian is free to go to any other state, but USians are only free to go > to another country if they have a lotta lotta money. > Both incorrect and irrelevant. Other countries allow migration from the US - maybe not as conveniently as if you can bribe your way through the process, but if you're determined to go (and you haven't broken the US's laws, which mere emigration from the US by itself does not do), you can. That said, we're talking primarily about the rich. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 02:36:14 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 19:36:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was: RE: self driving truck In-Reply-To: References: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 5:21 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 3:46 PM, spike wrote: > >> ?> ? >> So? my feeling is that the heavy lifting in government should be done at >> the state level. > > > But how could that ever come to be? A presidential or congressional > candidate who says "I will do nothing to address the most important social > issue of our age and I have no interest in the thing that makes you > ?the ? > angriest" will simply never get > ? > elected. > ? They'd rather vote for the first dimwit they find with ?loud voice who > promises simple solutions to complex problems. > Unless they are duped into believing there is only one other serious candidate on the ballot, who is even worse. (Note the number of people who will never - even if they dislike both choices and they live in a state whose electors are predetermined, so the only thing they can do with their vote is to protest - seriously consider voting third party.) Incidentally there is now about one chance in 4 that the revolver aimed at > our heads will go off a week from tomorrow. > Case in point: that's a 3 in 4 chance that the presidential candidate who has not demonstrated nearly as much interest in this issue will be elected. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 03:14:48 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 14:14:48 +1100 Subject: [ExI] self driving truck In-Reply-To: References: <009c01d22ede$51fc6ac0$f5f54040$@att.net> <00a901d22ee0$4b73d4c0$e25b7e40$@att.net> <020301d232d7$9afdafc0$d0f90f40$@att.net> <201611010048.uA10mXpk016002@ziaspace.com> Message-ID: On 1 November 2016 at 13:23, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> But another possibility is that the rich may seek to eliminate the >> unproductive. Historically, the masses have been potentially useful to the >> rich and powerful, however contemptuous they may have been of them: kings >> needed subjects, conquerors needed soldiers, capitalists needed workers. >> But come the robots, the poor may be seen by the rich as at best a burden, >> at worst a threat. > > > This seems unlikely, for "poor" is a relative term. Eliminate the poorest > 50%, and what used to be the 50-75% range is suddenly the poorest 50%. > Eliminate them...frankly, even before you eliminated the poorest 10%, most > likely the bottom 99% would see the top 1% mean to eliminate all who are > not (and some who are) within their personal social circles. > By "poor" I mean those who lack significant power, capital or marketable skills. At present, they can at least add to the pool of unskilled labourers. Eliminate the need for unkilled labour, eliminate the need for most skilled labour - not much incentive left for those with power and capital to keep the rest around. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 11:25:59 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:25:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again Message-ID: ... but this is just too precious: https://twitter.com/ed_hooley/status/793135632671387649 Even Jill Stein thinks Hillary is worse than Trump. What a strange world we live in. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 11:36:09 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:36:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care Message-ID: This is a marvellous use for virtual reality! Quotes: How virtual reality is transforming dementia care in Australia Two Australian organisations are looking to push their VR capabilities to improve the lives of people living with dementia. TechRepublic spoke to them to find out what makes the platform such a game changer. By Jonathan Chadwick | October 30, 2016 "Our first demonstration was about 18 months ago," Pascal said. "We went to a facility, we had a dozen residents try it and most of them had dementia ? we didn't know that before we arrived. So everyone was a bit apprehensive as to what the reaction would be, but the reaction was amazing. All the staff loved it and it pretty much became a hit, because we have all these residents now communicating with each other, talking about what they're seeing and even sharing some stories. "Another thing we did was figure out how to sync a tablet with the headset, so a staff member can actually see what the resident is experiencing in real-time ? that's proven very popular too, they can help guide them and see what they like and what they don't like." Pascal said that one of the many positive effects of the handset is offering a distraction if dementia patients are experiencing boredom or displaying repetitive behaviour. "In terms of dementia residents it's more about how they're behaving before they try it," he said. "There's one woman in particular I remember: She had been making a repetitive moan every few seconds and was really not reacting to anything. We got her to try Solis and within about 10 seconds she just stopped, she was just fixated with what was she was experiencing, which was a canoe trip. She didn't [make the noise] again until I left. And she was in high-care." It can also affect users in some quite profound ways. Pascal shared a story where an elderly Italian gentleman cried when they removed the goggles from him. When asked why he was so emotional, he said that he had given up ever returning to Venice, and he had felt like he was there in a gondola. "Words like 'beautiful', 'paradise', 'Garden of Eden' continue to be used in every presentation. The other thing they really like about it is that it's the newest technology; they feel special. I say, '15-year-olds would love to have this technology and you get to have it' ? and they love that too. "And the response from carers is emotional. They want so much to be able to provide more for their residents." ----------- BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 11:45:40 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:45:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Unsong In-Reply-To: <490b9f46-09c2-94a0-f693-c3d08efe5475@aleph.se> References: <490b9f46-09c2-94a0-f693-c3d08efe5475@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 5:37 AM, Anders wrote: > we may say that transhumanism is about observer/actors of value changing > themselves to achieve greater value. > ### This sounds like a nice generalization of the usual understanding of transhumanism. ------------------- > . Hence transhumanism *requires* the existence of evil, or at least > not-quite-as-good states. > ### You may say that, although on the other hand you could imagine that in a world containing solely the highest-possible beings in a maximal state of well-being there would be still a transhumanist (trans-being) potentiality. If you are maximally improved you cannot further improve yourself but you may still continue to carry the stern resolution to improve yourself, should be opportunity arise. So in heaven there may be no transhumanist actions possible but there sure should be room for the transhumanist spirit! Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 12:16:15 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 08:16:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: She happens to be right. HRC is a neocon in actual practice, and has a long track record of sowing destruction across the globe. On Nov 1, 2016 7:26 AM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > ... but this is just too precious: > > https://twitter.com/ed_hooley/status/793135632671387649 > > Even Jill Stein thinks Hillary is worse than Trump. > > What a strange world we live in. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 1 14:56:33 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 07:56:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008201d23450$236fe750$6a4fb5f0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2016 4:26 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again ... but this is just too precious: https://twitter.com/ed_hooley/status/793135632671387649 What a strange world we live in. Rafa? Rafal, curses! You have taken a big problem in my life and made it worse! For months now I have had a desperate crush on Jill Stein, oh so foxy, with that silver hair, that shapely figure oh my, a knockout. I have been sneaking away and viewing her talks with the sound off. But this time I read her gorgeous lips enough to realize she was saying something other than some version of ?all known energy sources are bad.? Her comments in this video caused me to fall even harder. But I am happily married and I don?t fool around. As far as I know, she is the same way! Now my hopeless obsession continues, oy vey, Jill is right on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 1 15:21:10 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 08:21:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a601d23453$94128fa0$bc37aee0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care This is a marvellous use for virtual reality! Quotes: How virtual reality is transforming dementia care in Australia... ----------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK. As you know, this is a topic which has been on my mind for some time. In many cases the newest residents at memory care had been living alone for some time beforehand, perhaps several years, and family may live far so they don't visit much. The friends of the elderly are perishing on schedule and cannot travel easily, so plenty of the aged perhaps are not really in the late stages of dementia so much as they are bored out of their everlovin' minds. If they don't have or do not use a computer, what do they do? Watch soap operas? Daytime game shows? Well hell, no wonder their minds atrophy. OK so what if... we discover that we can take mid-stage dementia patients to a memory care facility, give them a really good stimulating virtual existence, a boot camp for the mind analogous to the flabby-ass teenage vido jockey's first weeks in the USMarines? And we discover, much to our astonishment, that plenty of these patients are not nursing home material? Their brains are still in there, and they can still learn? COME ON! Think about this, think HARD! What a breakthrough that could be! We might not need to take the mid-stagers to the nursing home, and while you are thinking about that, get online and find out how much this is going to cost you if you do put grandma in one of those places, oh my, it ain't cheap, oh dear. We get these VR devices, introduce them to the bored elderly in their own homes, everyone is happier, and far less bankrupt. For the ladies, what, Elvis Presley interactive reality? We take video of Elvis and somehow make a talking singing avatar? For the single men, videos of Dr. Jill Stein over-dubbed in actual sanity or just use that video posted today, unaltered. We could do a game-like VR, something that would hold the attention, be interactive, provide mental stimulation. Plenty of what I think we are interpreting as dementia is partly mental atrophy, which can be partially reversed. So let's figure out how to partially reverse it. Go Australians! We are cheering for ya, mates! spike From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 1 16:01:27 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 09:01:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care In-Reply-To: <00a601d23453$94128fa0$bc37aee0$@att.net> References: <00a601d23453$94128fa0$bc37aee0$@att.net> Message-ID: <000901d23459$343dba40$9cb92ec0$@att.net> >...From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike ... >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care This is a marvellous use for virtual reality! How virtual reality is transforming dementia care in Australia... ----------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK. As you know, this is a topic which has been on my mind for some time. ... Go Australians! We are cheering for ya, mates! spike _______________________________________________ >From BillK's article: ... an elderly Italian gentleman cried when they removed the goggles from him. When asked why he was so emotional, he said that he had given up ever returning to Venice, and he had felt like he was there in a gondola... This comment reminded me of an experience that happened a quarter century ago but I remember it like it happened yesterday. In college I worked at a nursing home, that wing back there (details needed? Didn't think so) night shift. Ten years later, my bride's grandfather was a patient in that nursing home and was in that wing back there. In the early 80s, they had no TV (they thought there was no point in it (dammit)) but by the early 90s, some sane kindhearted soul had made some fundamental changes. They had a big-screen TV (rare in those days, a big very expensive CRT) in a commons area and a number of seats and places for wheelchairs. Someone had recorded a bunch of episodes of the Waltons, cut out all the commercials and placed them continuously end to end on a video tapes. They played continuously round the clock (AD patients don't always sleep at night.) We visited, he commented "I had dinner today with the nicest family. They have a sawmill and the oldest son is called John Boy and their daughters are Mary Ellen, Esther, Erin Elizabeth... etc. I am not a Waltons trivia expert but he named the children accurately enough for me to realize he had learned the names of the characters accurately and recited them later, this after having been deep in what we thought was end-stage AD. That happened in 1992 but I can't get it out of my mind. His damaged brain was still able to experience and still able to remember. I think had we known, we might have been able to keep him home with nothing more sophisticated than a VCR. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 17:06:53 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:06:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] state vs federal taxes, was: RE: self driving truck In-Reply-To: References: <00ea01d233af$86e91000$94bb3000$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: ?> ? > so the only thing they can do with their vote is to protest - seriously > consider voting third party ?I have a strong hunch that if it were obvious that only 2 people had a chance of winning, Gary Johnson or Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton had virtually no chance of ever being president then many people who are currently voting for Johnson would vote for Hillary as a protest vote; they don't want anybody they vote for to actually win because then they'd feel responsible for what happens for the next 4 years, or perhaps longer. We've never had a president who refuses to recognize the outcome of an election and won't leave when his term expires so we don't know what would happen, but there is a 28% chance we'll find out in 4 years. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 17:11:20 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:11:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:25 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ?> ? > ... but this is just too precious: > > https://twitter.com/ed_hooley/status/793135632671387649 > Even Jill Stein thinks Hillary is worse than Trump. > ?Which means Jill Stein is just as big a fool as I always thought she was.? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:35:19 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:35:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care In-Reply-To: <000901d23459$343dba40$9cb92ec0$@att.net> References: <00a601d23453$94128fa0$bc37aee0$@att.net> <000901d23459$343dba40$9cb92ec0$@att.net> Message-ID: are not really in the late stages of dementia so much as they are bored out of their everlovin' minds. If they don't have or do not use a computer, what do they do? Watch soap operas? Daytime game shows? Well hell, no wonder their minds atrophy. spike Now I know very little about dementia, so do not get your ruffles up if I get something wrong. What's wrong with the Spike quote above? It assumes that their motivation is as far gone as their minds. Why can't they get stimulation for themselves? I knew one man, our former chairman, who had a stroke. I was not around him much, but I learned that he spent a good part of the day watching soap operas. And in the dept. we wondered - such a brilliant man; why was he dipping so low on the entertainment pole? A man who extolled the virtues of Nova on TV. Maybe his damage reduced his IQ in a sense and soap opera was now at his level. I have heard of other cases where an elderly person started to like pop music, as opposed to his usual classical. Another drop in IQ? bill w ------------------------------- I am not a Waltons trivia expert but he named the children accurately enough for me to realize he had learned the names of the characters accurately and recited them later, this after having been deep in what we thought was end-stage AD. spike Long term memories are the last to go. Don't make any assumptions about what that man could remember from yesterday or what he could learn. bill w On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 11:01 AM, spike wrote: > > >...From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On > Behalf Of spike > ... > > > >... On Behalf Of BillK > Subject: [ExI] VR for dementia care > > This is a marvellous use for virtual reality! > > is-transforming-dem > entia-care-in-australia/> > > How virtual reality is transforming dementia care in Australia... > ----------- > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > Thanks BillK. As you know, this is a topic which has been on my mind for > some time. > ... > Go Australians! We are cheering for ya, mates! > > spike _______________________________________________ > > > From BillK's article: > > ... an elderly Italian gentleman cried when they removed the goggles from > him. When asked why he was so emotional, he said that he had given up ever > returning to Venice, and he had felt like he was there in a gondola... > > This comment reminded me of an experience that happened a quarter century > ago but I remember it like it happened yesterday. In college I worked at a > nursing home, that wing back there (details needed? Didn't think so) night > shift. Ten years later, my bride's grandfather was a patient in that > nursing home and was in that wing back there. In the early 80s, they had > no > TV (they thought there was no point in it (dammit)) but by the early 90s, > some sane kindhearted soul had made some fundamental changes. They had a > big-screen TV (rare in those days, a big very expensive CRT) in a commons > area and a number of seats and places for wheelchairs. Someone had > recorded > a bunch of episodes of the Waltons, cut out all the commercials and placed > them continuously end to end on a video tapes. They played continuously > round the clock (AD patients don't always sleep at night.) > > We visited, he commented "I had dinner today with the nicest family. They > have a sawmill and the oldest son is called John Boy and their daughters > are > Mary Ellen, Esther, Erin Elizabeth... etc. > > I am not a Waltons trivia expert but he named the children accurately > enough > for me to realize he had learned the names of the characters accurately and > recited them later, this after having been deep in what we thought was > end-stage AD. That happened in 1992 but I can't get it out of my mind. > His > damaged brain was still able to experience and still able to remember. I > think had we known, we might have been able to keep him home with nothing > more sophisticated than a VCR. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 20:22:35 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:22:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2016 10:12 AM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 7:25 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >> ... but this is just too precious: >> >> https://twitter.com/ed_hooley/status/793135632671387649 >> Even Jill Stein thinks Hillary is worse than Trump. > > ?Which means Jill Stein is just as big a fool as I always thought she was.? There are reasons my protest vote went to Johnson instead. To see how well appeasement works, just look at the buildup to WWII. Letting Germany have Poland didn't stop it from invading France. There is nothing to suggest that letting Russia have Ukraine and Syria means they will stop there. One may quibble with how Hillary wishes to stand up to Russia, but standing up to them is better than letting them "just" take one country, then another, and so on...and quite possibly doing a nuclear first strike, with predictable consequences, on top of that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 22:20:08 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:20:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > ?> ? > Letting Germany have Poland didn't stop it from invading France. There is > nothing to suggest that letting Russia have Ukraine and Syria means they > will stop there.One may quibble with how Hillary wishes to stand up to > Russia, but standing up to them is better than letting them "just" take one > country, then another, and so on. > > ?What on earth are you talking about? Trump keeps whining that Hillary is being too mean to ?poor little Vladimir ?? Putin ?, and Putin thinks Hillary is too mean to him too, that's why he's doing everything he can to make Trump ?president, like illegally hack the Emails of democrats and leaking their contents with Trump's enthusiastic encouragement. It's not hard to figure out why Trump and Putin are such bosom buddies, both are fans of torture, both want to limit the the freedom of the press, both want to crack down on the free market, and they both want to put their political opponents in prison. How many red flags do you need to realize Trump is a dangerous fascist? And Adrian, if candidate Trump says he will abide with the results of the 2016 election if and only if he wins what makes you think President Trump will feel differently about the 2020 election? And what happens then? Nobody knows because luckily there has never been such a president in the nations history before. But our luck may run out in 7 days. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 23:06:48 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:06:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just don't get how you think Jill Stein is hot physically OR intellectually, lol. You should go listen to her old music and try not to laugh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 23:28:45 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:28:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 1, 2016 3:21 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> Letting Germany have Poland didn't stop it from invading France. There is nothing to suggest that letting Russia have Ukraine and Syria means they will stop there.One may quibble with how Hillary wishes to stand up to Russia, but standing up to them is better than letting them "just" take one country, then another, and so on. > > ?What on earth are you talking about? That the essence of all the "Hillary will lead us into WWIII" arguments that I have heard so far - the coherent ones, anyway, and which Jill seems yo be echoing - is roughly, "Hillary will direct US forces to stop Russia annexing or effectively annexing Syria and other countries, which will cause Russia to begin shooting at US forces". Yes, perhaps it is "mean" to stand up to spoiled brats like Putin and Trump. That's still better than letting said brats demand and get anything they want, regardless of the cost to others. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 1 23:59:19 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 16:59:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001b01d2349b$f6611b20$e3235160$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again >?I just don't get how you think Jill Stein is hot physically? I think it is an evolutionary adaptation Will. Keith Henson might comment on this since it might go to evolutionary psychology as well, but I don?t have sufficient understanding of the theory behind that notion. I am guessing you are young. If so, I don?t expect you would find Dr. Stein hot, for this fits with my understanding of group-level evolution. Please anyone up to speed on individual vs group evolution, do feel free to jump in and rescue me from myself. Genes compete at an individual level as we know. Competition for reproductive success is encoded (somehow) into our notions of attractiveness, no mystery there. So we have a kind of universal attraction to shapely young women, ja? (Please let me assume for this argument the POV of straight male, since that?s the only one I know from zeroth-hand experience.) Shapely young women have visual cues that suggest health and reproductive capacity, so? very little mystery, genes vs genes, well understood is this. OK, if we stop there, we have no good explanation for why older men find older women attractive, ja? I know, they don?t always, of course. But? the exceptions get unnecessary attention and are for that reason exaggerated. What mechanism can we imagine that would cause older men to be attracted to women who are beyond reproductive age? We can jump to all the things that complicate the picture: older women have more interesting things to talk about, have more experience to share and all that (we know, it?s true) but that isn?t really where I am going with this argument. I am suggesting in most cases, older women are generally more attractive to most older men, even with that interesting-conversation-afterwards factor not taken into account. My reasoning would go thus: Suppose some unknown mechanism is encoded into our genes that cause older men to find post-fertile women attractive. If so, then those societies where that factor is strong would work together better as a team, be more successful in raising its own offspring, since the old men would not compete with the young males for the fertile females. Rather the post-fertility females would stay paired up with older males, thus creating opportunities to nurture the pre-fertile young, freeing up the fertile males to fight and hunt, etc, while not having the older stay-at-home males competing and producing offspring in their absence. That would be an example of genes competing simultaneously at the individual level and the group level. Does that kinda sorta work? If so, those groups where the genes encode (somehow) older males to be attracted to post-fertility females creates a stronger more cohesive better-fed more fit to raise pre-fertility offspring society. Ja? That notion works for me, and explains why some post-fertility females appear drop-dead gorgeous to me. >?OR intellectually, lol? I don?t, lol. I know Dr. Stein?s notions are goofy. She?s still a knockout. I feel no need to apologize, it?s in my genes. Evolution put it there (somehow.) >? You should go listen to her old music and try not to laugh? OK so she?s not a musician either. Easy solution: open two windows, one with Jill Stein on mute, open another window behind it with Sarah Brightman with the sound turned up, Jill?s visuals, Sarah?s voice, done. Oh wait, never mind, Sarah is even more drop-dead gorgeous than Jill, and she is my age. Oh what a stunner is that one, oh mercy. The magic age in which we fortunate ones are living allows us to mix and match voices, visuals, memesets, create the perfect fantasy companion. Is it any wonder I am optimistic? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 02:16:29 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:16:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again In-Reply-To: <001b01d2349b$f6611b20$e3235160$@att.net> References: <001b01d2349b$f6611b20$e3235160$@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:59 PM, spike wrote: > >>? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg > Subject: Re: [ExI] I promised myself I wouldn't wade into it again > >>?I just don't get how you think Jill Stein is hot physically? > > I think it is an evolutionary adaptation Will. Keith Henson might comment > on this since it might go to evolutionary psychology as well, but I don?t > have sufficient understanding of the theory behind that notion. Sorry, I don't understand how evolutionary psychology applies to this situation. > I am guessing you are young. If so, I don?t expect you would find Dr. Stein > hot, for this fits with my understanding of group-level evolution. Please > anyone up to speed on individual vs group evolution, do feel free to jump in > and rescue me from myself. Near as I can see, group-level evolution is not even logical. Evolution takes place as changes in gene frequencies. OK, you have a tribe of humans who have somehow accumulated a favorable set of genes. What do they do with them? They trade them away, exchanging women with the tribe down the valley. Consider yourself rescued. Make a note, group evolution makes *no* sense. For some reason I don't understand, it's an attractive meme. Keith From sparge at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 12:20:12 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 08:20:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR Message-ID: This is a good read. -Dave http://ideas.4brad.com/if-you-built-westworld-or-other-robot-sex-it-would-probably-be-vr HBO released a new version of ?Westworld? based on the old movie about a robot-based western theme park. The show hasn?t excited me yet ? it repeats many of the old tropes on robots/AI becoming aware ? but I?m interested in the same thing the original talked about ? simulated experiences for entertainment. The new show misses what?s changed since the original. I think it?s more likely they will build a world like this with a combination of VR, AI and specialty remotely controlled actuators rather than with independent self-contained robots. One can understand the appeal of presenting the simulation in a mostly real environment. But the advantages of the VR experience are many. In particular, with the top-quality, retinal resolution light-field VR we hope to see in the future, the big advantage is you don?t need to make the physical things look real. You will have synthetic bodies, but they only have to feel right, and only just where you touch them. They don?t have to look right. In particular, they can have cables coming out of them connecting them to external computing and power. You don?t see the cables, nor the other manipulators that are keeping the cables out of your way (even briefly unplugging them) as you and they move. This is important to get data to the devices ? they are not robots as their control logic is elsewhere, though we will call them robots ? but even more important for power. Perhaps the most science fictional thing about most TV robots is that they can run for days on internal power. That?s actually very hard. The VR has to be much better than we have today, but it?s not as much of a leap as the robots in the show. It needs to be at full retinal resolution (though only in the spot your eyes are looking) and it needs to be able to simulate the ?light field? which means making the light from different distances converge correctly so you focus your eyes at those distances. It has to be lightweight enough that you forget you have it on. It has to have an amazing frame-rate and accuracy, and we are years from that. It would be nice if it were also untethered, but the option is also open for a tether which is suspended from the ceiling and constantly moved by manipulators so you never feel its weight or encounter it with your arms. (That might include short disconnections.) However, a tracking laser combined with wireless power could also do the trick to give us full bandwidth and full power without weight. It?s probably not possible to let you touch the area around your eyes and not feel a headset, but add a little SF magic and it might be reduced to feeling like a pair of glasses. The advantages of this are huge: - You don?t have to make anything look realistic, you just need to be able to render that in VR. - You don?t even have to build things that nobody will touch, or go to, including most backgrounds and scenery. - You don?t even need to keep rooms around, if you can quickly have machines put in the props when needed before a player enters the room. - In many cases, instead of some physical objects, a *very* fast manipulator might be able to quickly place in your way textures and surfaces you are about to touch. For example, imagine if, instead of a wall, a machine with a few squares of wall surface quickly holds one out anywhere you?re about to touch. Instead of a door there is just a robot arm holding a handle that moves as you push and turn it. - Proven tricks in VR can get people to turn around without realizing it, letting you create vast virtual spaces in small physical ones. The spaces will be designed to match what the technology can do, of course. - You will also control the audio and cancel sounds, so your behind-the-scenes manipulations don?t need to be fully silent. - You do it all with central computers, you don?t try to fit it all inside a robot. - You can change it all up any time. In some cases, you need the player to ?play along? and remember not to do things that would break the illusion. Don?t try to run into that wall or swing from that light fixture. Most people would play along. For a lot more money, you might some day be able to do something more like Westworld. That has its advantages too: - Of course, the player is not wearing any gear, which will improve the reality of the experience. They can touch their faces and ears. - Superb rendering and matching are not needed, nor the light field or anything else. You just need your robots to get past the uncanny valley - You can use real settings (like a remote landscape for a western) though you may have a few anachronisms. (Planes flying overhead, houses in the distance.) - The same transmitted power and laser tricks could work for the robots, but transmitting enough power to power a horse is a great deal more than enough to power a headset. All this must be kept fully hidden. The latter experience will be made too, but it will be more static and cost a lot more money. Yes, there will be sex *Warning: We?re going to get a bit squicky here for some folks.* Westworld is on HBO, so of course there is sex, though mostly just a more advanced vision of the classic sex robot idea. I think that VR will change sex much sooner. In fact, there is already a small VR porn industry, and even some primitive haptic devices which tie into what?s going on in the porn. I have not tried them but do not imagine them to be very sophisticated as yet, but that will change. Indeed, it will change to the point where porn of this sort becomes a substitute for prostitution, with some strong advantages over the real thing (including, of course, the questions of legality and exploitation of humans.) There are already video recording techniques to record human actors in more than 3D ? they are recorded from multiple angles so you can move your head and see proper parallax. This will be combined with a simpler ?sex robot? which does a decent job of feeling like a person ? with warmth and skin textures and more ? but doesn?t look like a human at all. Looking human is the job of the video and the actors, real or synthetic. What matters is that the robot touches you in a way to match the scene, and that you don?t move so much that you break this illusion. As such, we?ll first see scripts where the subject stays fairly still, moving only his or her head and perhaps arms, and then advance to more limited movement. Past history suggests people are quite willing to suspend disbelief in these situations, and stick within the rules to play out their fantasies. Later, the range of what is possible will expand. People will know it?s not real (as they hopefully know the prostitute doesn?t actually have feelings for them) but immerse themselves in the fantasy world. The initial technology might be expensive, suggesting the creation of ?VR brothels? where people (let?s face it, primarily men) go to rent a booth, but eventually it could become cheap enough for private ownership. This leads to a number of interesting social consequences. This technology might well reduce the demand for prostitution, which most people think is a positive thing. Prostitution is one of the leading drivers of demand for modern human slavery. (Slavery has not gone away. In fact, in absolute numbers, there are reportedly more slaves in captivity today than there were in the early 1800s at the height of the classic slave trade period.) More controversial will be the potential to offer disturbing fantasies. Violent sex and sex with minors. These controversies exist already in the more basic world of porn. Some push to ban even simulations of these acts. Others believe that offering simulated experiences may replace the demand for the vastly more pernicious real experiences. There will also unfortunately be demand for VR video of real, not simulated, child sexual abuse. It will also be possible to create remote experiences, where a remote sex worker interacts with the customer in live VR, just as is done over videoconferencing today. (Indeed it was 40 years ago that my friend Ted Nelson coined the term teledildonics to refer to these types of interactions, both with sex workers and between couples.) In fact, live streaming VR experiences ? sexual and otherwise ? may be one of the largest drivers of bandwidth demand in the coming decade. It will become possible in time to alter the experience of the remote person. This might allow a 50 year old woman or man to play a 20 year old woman. And, controversially, it could also allow them to play an underage person. The world will have much to debate, and hopefully the extreme issues will be a small minority market and not cloud discussion of the bigger picture. Even the existence of relatively tame porn has always been controversial. The latest issue revolves on whether the vastly higher availability of porn for teen boys is clouding their impressions of what women are or should be like and ?raising the bar? in a bad way, reducing their ability to be satisfied with their non-fantasy partners. This will be multiplied by VR and VR/robot offerings, though in the early days when it is expensive it will not be readily available to teens. We will also see uses that are more healthy, including interaction between distant partners, or even for couples who are physically together who want to do a bit of consensual make-believe. A brave new world, is coming, folks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 2 14:27:13 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 07:27:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill ? http://ideas.4brad.com/if-you-built-westworld-or-other-robot-sex-it-would-probably-be-vr >?HBO released a new version of ?Westworld? based on the old movie about a robot-based western theme park? Yes, there will be sex Warning: We?re going to get a bit squicky here for some folks. >?Westworld is on HBO, so of course there is sex, though mostly just a more advanced vision of the classic sex robot idea?A brave new world, is coming, folks? (article) Dave there is a ballot initiative in California this time that requires all porno-actors to wear condoms at work. So, while filming robo-orgies, will the humans playing the role of robots be required to use them? That would kind of spoil the illusion. If WestWorld really did come to pass, sooner or later the tourists would try to have the robots do each other, kind of a 3-D realtime porno? em? demonstration? Just to bring new meaning to the term sex-machine perhaps. The tech isn?t here yet, so the creation of the movies would require human actors to play robots. Will the California law require them to use condoms? Legislators really need to think about these things. We do. Far too much perhaps. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:15:18 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 11:15:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Two bullets Message-ID: Things have deteriorated, according to Nate Silver once more there are 2 bullets in the revolver we're being forced to play Russian Roulette with. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 2 15:57:07 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 08:57:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Two bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f501d23521$c37e6880$4a7b3980$@att.net> >?On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [ExI] Two bullets >?Things have deteriorated, according to Nate Silver once more there are 2 bullets in the revolver we're being forced to play Russian Roulette with. John K Clark John, if we must go with the strained Russian Roulette model, may I suggest a refinement: we are presented with at least four pistols. We know not how many rounds are in any of them. We only have polls guessing at how many are in each, but that?s all it is, a guess. We really don?t know. Take your best guess, hope for the best. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:19:49 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 16:19:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2 November 2016 at 14:27, spike wrote: > Dave there is a ballot initiative in California this time that requires all > porno-actors to wear condoms at work. So, while filming robo-orgies, will > the humans playing the role of robots be required to use them? That would > kind of spoil the illusion. > > If WestWorld really did come to pass, sooner or later the tourists would try > to have the robots do each other, kind of a 3-D realtime porno? em? > demonstration? Just to bring new meaning to the term sex-machine perhaps. > The tech isn?t here yet, so the creation of the movies would require human > actors to play robots. Will the California law require them to use condoms? > > Legislators really need to think about these things. We do. Far too much > perhaps. > Would people be allowed to marry more than one sex robot? (Each one customised as required, of course). The Realdoll company are hoping to add AI to their sex dolls before end 2017. BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 2 16:07:36 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:07:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] if we build it, they will come. was: RE: If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR Message-ID: <010201d23523$3abf2aa0$b03d7fe0$@att.net> >?On Behalf Of spike ? >?If WestWorld really did come to pass, sooner or later the tourists would try to have the robots do each other, kind of a 3-D realtime porno? em? demonstration?spike Come to think of it, I vaguely recall an SAT question from back in the swinging 70s: Needle and thread is to sewing machine as porno star is to ___. I answered West World sexbot Yul Brynner. Ended up with a 1480, scholarship. See how easy? All it takes is a little imagination. OK so we know the usual carbon-based rhythm, so now envision a sewing machine doing that. Surely if either participant were human, serious injuries would result. So if we ever get West World, it would be only minutes before some silly prole gets the old light bulb over the head (I get lots of those) and exclaims HEY GUYS! I have an idea! (I say that a lot.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:58:32 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 12:58:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Two bullets In-Reply-To: <00f501d23521$c37e6880$4a7b3980$@att.net> References: <00f501d23521$c37e6880$4a7b3980$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:57 AM, spike wrote: > > >> ?> ? >> ?Things have deteriorated, according to Nate Silver once more there are 2 >> bullets in the revolver we're being forced to play Russian Roulette with. > > > ?> ? > John, if we must go with the strained Russian Roulette model, may I > suggest a refinement: we are presented with at least four pistols. > ?Bad analogy because only one of the revolvers has any bullets in the cylinder. ? ?It's not important who wins on November 8, it's only important that Donald Trump loses. John K Clark ? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:18:17 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 13:18:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:19 PM, BillK wrote: > > Would people be allowed to marry more than one sex robot? > Marry? That's a ways off. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 00:41:09 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 19:41:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: Will the California law require them to use condoms? Legislators really need to think about these things. We do. Far too much perhaps. spike Some years ago my uncle took me to a nudie bar in El Paso. He did their books and I just went along. I noticed that the girls were totally topless and commented to him about it. He looked and said No, that they were wearing bandaids which were totally transparent! This satisfied Texas law. Funny folks, those Texans. bill w On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:19 PM, BillK wrote: > >> >> Would people be allowed to marry more than one sex robot? >> > > Marry? That's a ways off. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 01:54:59 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:54:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= Message-ID: This is what the Libertarian Party's vice presidential nominee ? Bill Weld had to say about Hillary Clinton yesterday on MSNBC's Rachel Maddow ? Show: ? ?"? I have a lot to say about Mrs. Clinton that has not been said by others recently and that I think needs to be said. I mean I've known her for 40 years. I worked with her, I know her well professionally. I know her well personally. I know her to be a person of high moral character. A reliable person and an honest person, however Mr. Trump may rant and rave to the contrary. ? [...] I'm not taking back anything I said about the massive difference between the two establishment party candidates. One would be chaos for the country, I think. And the other would be a very business-like and capable and competent approach to our affairs. ? [...] I?m here vouching for Mrs. Clinton and I think it?s high time somebody did, and I?m doing it based on my personal experience with her and I think she deserves to have people vouch for her other than members of the Democratic National Committee, so I?m here to do that. ?"? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 03:05:54 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 20:05:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the last few months I have been skipping the posting from this group. But if you happen to wonder what I have been doing . . . . I think there is only one of you (Spike) who follows this on power satellite economics. Best wishes, Keith ---------- Forwarded message ---------- On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 8:33 AM, Jim Plaxco wrote: > On 10/31/2016 8:00 PM, Keith Henson wrote: snip >> _If_ we can start out building power satellites from the ground and >> make a profit doing so, such a foothold might lead in directions of a >> lot of people living out there and tapping asteroids or the moon for >> resources. > > Or it may be through the use of zero-gee research and manufacturing that > yield high value knowledge and/or products. So far this has failed. One of the more promising projects was growing large hard-to-crystallize proteins in zero g so the structure could be determined by X-ray crystallography. Alas, the people involved delayed getting around to doing it for so many years that an alternative method, femtosecond lasers, was developed that gets entirely around the need for large crystals. >> There needs to be some physics done before the artists get on it. > > Since when have artists needed physics? ;-) Point taken. :-) A physics correct Pegasus with a 7 foot long breastbone would be something to behold. A counter example though is Don Davis who is devoted to getting the physics right in his paintings. I can't find the art, but we had a discussion decades ago about the radiators and I think he produced a version of the Bernal Sphere that got the radiators right. (The X cross ones are not an optimal solution because they "see" each other instead of deep space.) Long travel times are dictated by orbital mechanics and reaction mass efficient spiral orbits. The travel time makes it desirable to keep the workers in space for years to decades. If we are going to have people in space for long times, we have to provide artificial gravity and shielding. The two interact. If we need a large radius to keep the rotation rate down, the minimum size goes up and the efficient use of shielding goes down. "It is generally believed that at 2 rpm or less, no adverse effects from the Coriolis forces will occur, although humans have been shown to adapt to rates as high as 23 rpm.[6]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gravity For the same thickness of shielding, the Stanford Torus used a lot more mass than the Bernal Sphere designed the same year. (Roughly the area of a torus to a sphere.) Mined from the moon or asteroids, mass is relatively inexpensive. Brought up from Earth, it's relatively expensive. For construction-worker housing, there is a long list of considerations. We need to start with some estimation of how many people and how many cubic meters they need. For example, 11 cubic meters is considered the minimum in the UK for working space. http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/roomspace.htm The ISS and an Ohio Class Subs have 152 and 42 cubic meters person respectively. http://www.milsf.com/ship-size-tonnage-and-crew/ We have to pick a number for the size of the habitat and the population--just to get some numbers for the artists. For a first try, how about 1/10th of the diameter of O'Neill's Island One? That was 500 meters diameter and held about 10,000 people. For this one, I am going to assume 50 meters and 400-500 people. That makes the radius 25 m, the spin rate 5.98 RPM, and the volume 65450 cubic meters. If the population is 400 people, they have163.6 cubic meters per person. For a population of 500 it would be a bit over 130 cubic meters per person. If the people come up 100 at a time inside cargo stacks, 400 (in 4 cargo stacks) might be the starting population. That gives plenty of cargo mass (60,000 tons) for the habitat and construction frame. The surface area of a 50-m sphere is 7854 square meters, requiring 40,000 tons of shielding or about 1.2 power satellites worth of mass. At the density of water, the shielding would increase the size of the outer sphere to 60 meters. If we animate it, we have to decide on rotating or stationary shielding. I am inclined to stationary shielding, but really stationary, not rotating backwards slowly, means we have to build a second habitat shell without shielding to counter the momentum from spinning up the first one. The habitat spin axis has to be equatorial N/S to avoid gyroscopic torque issues, i.e., parallel to the Earth's axis. 10,400 km altitude is about in the middle of the Van Allen belt gap and a 6-hour orbit. Not sure this makes a lot of difference, but it will keep the space workers in sync with the ground if their working times depend in any way on the direction of light. The habitat location in the construction frame will be on the near (Earth) side because new power satellites spiral outward. In the artwork we will show two of them, one with and one without shielding. The North direction will have a concentrating mirror focused on the axis of the habitat. The light level inside is set at 400 watts per square meter with reference to the central cross section, or about 800 kW. That's enough for plants (salad greens only; most food comes up with the power satellite parts). The habitat also needs power to run fans, pumps, a few lights and a lot of computer workstations and low latency teleoperator stations. Detailed design will modify this, but I am going to initially figure a kW/person load or ~400 kW. Assume 40%-efficient concentrated PV that is 1000 kW input, which adds to the 800 kW from the raw sunlight input. The cells will be on a flange around the window and rotate with the habitat avoiding slip rings. For light concentrated to 100 kW per m^2, the window and PV flange would have an area of about 18 square meters, the window being 3.2 m diameter, the flange with PV and water cooling, 5 meters. The concentrating mirror would be 47.7 m, but 50 m is close enough for the artwork. The cooling loop has to reject ~1800 kW. If the radiator runs at 20 deg C, the rejection rate is 400 W/m^2, making the radiator area ~4500 square meters. Eventually the second habitat will get shielding and be occupied, so the total radiator area for the two of them will be ~9,000 square meters. To make the analysis simple, the radiator will radiate only one direction with non-imaging type reflectors so all sides of the radiator pipes see 2.7 deg K. This assumes low- pressure, condensing steam as the working fluid, and tapered radiator tubes. It will take an extensive fault tree analysis to determine what might fail and what the habitat spacing should be to keep one failure from propagating to the other. For the present, the center- to-center distance on the habitat spheres will be set by the radiator dimension of 67 m square x 2 or 135 m. Depending on the time of the year, the Sun will be eclipsed part of the time by the Earth. Worst case, the Earth subtends 2 times sin(6300/16,770) or 44 deg. [Earth will be *HUGE*] (44/360)*6 hr is .72 hrs or 44 minutes (need to figure umbra/penumbra). That makes the average heat and light input ~88% of peak during the worst of the eclipse season. It also mandates a substantial energy storage. The ISS has the same eclipse problem but the eclipses are shorter. Given various losses and filters to keep out the less useful wavelengths, the reflecting mirror to get the light in will be 67 meters in diameter. One of the mirrors will be set 70 meters above the other so the habitat mirrors don't shade each other as the whole thing goes around the Earth every 6 hours. The mirrors track the Sun, going a full circle every 6 hours. The frame holding the habitats is a 45-deg, chopped-off corner 200 m wide of a square structure that spreads out to 3.2 km wide. The edge with the habitat is closest to Earth and has space-anchor attachments at the 45-deg corners. The anchors are in the tons to tens of tons range and, with tens of km of length, the attachment strings provide hundreds of newtons of tension (an effect of being deep in the Earth's gravity well). A great deal of care will have to be taken to assure that cargo stacks don't run into the space anchors. This should not be too hard since a cargo stack gains about 220 km in the last orbit. The two outer edges of the square will be where power satellites are connected (dry dock edges) or possibly we truncate the frame either one or two power satellites wide. The other two sides of the square (or triangle) will be used to dock cargo stacks. The stacks will be moved up by an elevator one layer at a time and disassembled from the top down. This keeps the cargo stacks from eclipsing the habitat light and power mirrors. There is plenty of room to dock several cargo stacks. Construction power can be from PV hanging under the construction frame (south side). Transport on the frame is by tracked vehicles. (Credit to John Strickland.) Sorry for the extreme data dump. It will look simple as an animation. If you are good at visualization and see a problem, please let me know. Keith PS. When we cut a new power satellite loose, do we smash a bottle of Champagne? From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 03:24:00 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 20:24:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark >?Subject: [ExI] T?he Libertarian Party's vice presidential nominee ?"?I have a lot to say about Mrs. Clinton that has not been said by others recently and that I think needs to be said?? John K Clark Is Bill Weld talking to his running mate? http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/31/politics/gary-johnson-clinton-impeachment/index.html Libertarian presidential nominee Gary Johnson ?:"I think unquestionably if [Clinton] takes office she is going to be under criminal investigation, unquestionably this is going to be the nation's agenda for the entire time she is office and it may well end up in impeachment," Johnson said on "The Craig Silverman Show." "This is Watergate kind of stuff," he continued. "This is really, really deep, real stuff and all you have to say, all you have to recognize is the FBI would not have done this -- this is not political, this is anything but political, because of the fact they dropped this investigation in July, saying, to clear the decks for the election. That was also clearly, I don't even want to call it a political move, as much as a move that would clear up the election, that people would feel like this was not overhanging. Well, now it's overhanging, and it's overhanging for a reason. There's so much smoke in the room that it will never, ever get ventilated over the next four years. Never." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 03:31:16 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 20:31:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007b01d23582$bce41310$36ac3930$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:06 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda >...For the last few months I have been skipping the posting from this group. But if you happen to wonder what I have been doing . . . . I think there is only one of you (Spike) who follows this on power satellite economics. Best wishes, Keith ---------- Forwarded message ---------- ... snip >>...Sorry for the extreme data dump. It will look simple as an animation. If you are good at visualization and see a problem, please let me know. Keith PS. When we cut a new power satellite loose, do we smash a bottle of Champagne? _______________________________________________ In the old days they smashed champagne bottles when launching a battleship. Since launching a power satellite is in a sense the opposite or counterpart action (in a sense) to the battleship, I feel the need to derive an opposing or counterpart action to the champagne bottle. Open to suggestion. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 04:42:10 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:42:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda In-Reply-To: <007b01d23582$bce41310$36ac3930$@att.net> References: <007b01d23582$bce41310$36ac3930$@att.net> Message-ID: Beer bottle? Best wishes, Keith On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 8:31 PM, spike wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf > Of Keith Henson > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 8:06 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda > >>...For the last few months I have been skipping the posting from this > group. But if you happen to wonder what I have been doing . . . . > > I think there is only one of you (Spike) who follows this on power satellite > economics. > > Best wishes, > > Keith > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > ... > > snip > >>>...Sorry for the extreme data dump. It will look simple as an animation. > If you are good at visualization and see a problem, please let me know. > > Keith > > PS. When we cut a new power satellite loose, do we smash a bottle of > Champagne? > _______________________________________________ > > > > > In the old days they smashed champagne bottles when launching a battleship. > Since launching a power satellite is in a sense the opposite or counterpart > action (in a sense) to the battleship, I feel the need to derive an opposing > or counterpart action to the champagne bottle. Open to suggestion. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 06:28:00 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 23:28:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 8:24 PM, spike wrote: > Libertarian presidential nominee Gary Johnson ?:"I think unquestionably if > [Clinton] takes office she is going to be under criminal investigation, > unquestionably this is going to be the nation's agenda for the entire time > she is office and it may well end up in impeachment," Johnson said on "The > Craig Silverman Show." > > "This is Watergate kind of stuff," he continued. "This is really, really > deep, real stuff and all you have to say, all you have to recognize is the > FBI would not have done this -- this is not political, this is anything but > political, because of the fact they dropped this investigation in July, > saying, to clear the decks for the election. That was also clearly, I don't > even want to call it a political move, as much as a move that would clear > up the election, that people would feel like this was not overhanging. > Well, now it's overhanging, and it's overhanging for a reason. There's so > much smoke in the room that it will never, ever get ventilated over the > next four years. Never." > I suspect Johnson may be right about that, but with the following caveats that modify the thrust: This will likely continue to be true even if Hillary wins and is then impeached. The Republicans have descended into the Party of No so much, they will continue to find reasons to be that so long as a non-Republican is President. This would continue to be true even if Trump won and Hillary was imprisoned: enough Democrats would refuse to see it as anything but political retaliation - and given as this would likely spark a witch hunt reaching well beyond Hillary, they would probably be right in the end, no matter Hillary's own guilt or innocence. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:04:00 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 01:04:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Village in space, was marmalade agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 8:05 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > > Or it may be through the use of zero-gee research and manufacturing that > > yield high value knowledge and/or products. > > So far this has failed. One of the more promising projects was > growing large hard-to-crystallize proteins in zero g so the structure > could be determined by X-ray crystallography. Alas, the people > involved delayed getting around to doing it for so many years that an > alternative method, femtosecond lasers, was developed that gets > entirely around the need for large crystals. > I've spoken to people making money from zero-G manufacturing. They are able to turn quite a profit from "Vomit Comet" brief microgravity in climbing and falling airplanes, but they do not have nearly enough of a market to justify even small orbital manufacturing plants. That said, there has not been much room to affordably experiment with this yet, so perhaps non-trivial products might justify orbital manufacturing better (at least in the current stage, where there is little enough demand for almost anything on-orbit that manufactured products must economically justify themselves being sold back to Earth markets, if they are to economically justify themselves at all). > "It is generally believed that at 2 rpm or less, no adverse > effects from the Coriolis forces will occur, although humans have been > shown to adapt to rates as high as 23 rpm.[6]" > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_gravity > > For the same thickness of shielding, the Stanford Torus used a lot > more mass than the Bernal Sphere designed the same year. (Roughly the > area of a torus to a sphere.) I have favored the O'Neill Cylinder when I have tinkered with space colony. Assuming spin gravity, only a certain band of the torus or sphere is habitable, but most of the surface area of a cylinder (everything but the caps) could be subject to 1G. 1G and 2 RPM can be achieved with a radius of just under 250 meters. http://www.artificial-gravity.com/sw/SpinCalc/ is a cool little utility to let you play around with G vs. RPM vs. radius vs. tangential velocity. (Further, a cylinder can - in theory - be extended as the population grows: build more cylinder past the enclosed section, put a new end cap at the new end, then disassemble the old end cap that is now in the middle of the cylinder. This is critical when starting out with a few hundred people - and thus, only the resources to build a habitat for a few hundred people - but then growing to a medium-sized city equivalent - 10,000 to 100,000. After that you'd want to just build new cylinders, but by that point you're probably generating enough resources to do so.) > We have to pick a number for the size of the habitat and the > population--just to get some numbers for the artists. For a first > try, how about 1/10th of the diameter of O'Neill's Island One? That > was 500 meters diameter and held about 10,000 people. For this one, I > am going to assume 50 meters and 400-500 people. That makes the > radius 25 m, the spin rate 5.98 RPM, and the volume 65450 cubic > meters. If the population is 400 people, they have163.6 cubic meters > per person. For a population of 500 it would be a bit over 130 cubic > meters per person. Except that much of that would be at different RPMs, and quite a bit in near zero G near the axis of spin. That is not area I would consider habitable. (Also, 5.98 > 2; if humanity in general can live in 2 but no higher, then 5.98 as the lowest RPM is right out.) Estimates of livable population density vary wildly, but I would take my home town, Mountain View, as a good area: generally suburban density, along with substantial commercial and industrial space. (My preferred design has the outermost layers of the cylinder dedicated to agriculture, since that is where much of the colony's water would be - thus, taking advantage of that placement to shield the inhabited area.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_View,_California gives a population density of 2,300 per square kilometer. Going beyond just workers and going for a viable colony, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population suggests we want at least a bit over 4,000; to simplify the math, let's go for 4,600 people and thus 2 square kilometers. (Agriculturally, http://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/9582/how-many-people-can-you-feed-per-square-kilometer-of-farmland and other sources suggest that with good modern techniques, you could feed at least 1,000 people per square kilometer of arable land, and use of hydroponics et al - which would be a given in this case - can more than double this amount. Also note that, if the agricultural layer is stacked underneath/outside the habitable layer, a given square kilometer of habitable area means more than a square kilometer of agricultural area. Multiple agricultural layers are possible if this estimate proves high, meaning 1 km^2 of habitable area could have 10 or more km^2 of agricultural area beneath it. All of which means that 2,300 people per km^2 can be fed too.) 2 square kilometers of livable area, and for simplicity assume 250 meter radius, comes to just under 1.3 km length. If we go for 500 meter radius (which, using the utility linked above, drops the RPM to a bit over 1.33 - which means we have safety margin for habitability), we're at just over 630 meter length. While the former is more efficient use of shielding (when calculating the total surface area, only the size of the end caps differ), the latter is probably more stable (lower length/diameter ratio). Further, for the "from 100 to 100,000" problem above, the length scales linearly. 100 people at 500 meter radius is a 7ish meter wide petri dish - livable, especially if it's only for a few years until hundreds more can be attracted (bringing funds to pay for lengthening the habitat), while 100,000 is slightly under 7 km (which is where you'd want to stop and build another cylinder, if you hadn't already). > The habitat also needs power to run fans, pumps, a few lights and a > lot of computer workstations and low latency teleoperator stations. > Detailed design will modify this, but I am going to initially figure a > kW/person load or ~400 kW. http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=81000 (which sources from the CIA World Factbook) gives, for the US, an annual consumption - including industrial consumption - of just over 13 MWh, or on average just over 1.4 kW/person. Even in the environment you envision, adding in all the electronic conveniences people are used to and adding industrial space station needs on top of that, you're probably correct to within an order of magnitude, if slightly low. PS. When we cut a new power satellite loose, do we smash a bottle of > Champagne? > Following up on Spike's suggestion that this is in a sense the opposite of a battleship, maybe use the satellite's energy to 3D print a bottle? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:32:36 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:32:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:24 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > Is Bill Weld talking to his running mate? > > http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/31/politics/gary-johnson- > clinton-impeachment/index.html > ?Weld was asked that very question and to comment on Johnson's news release about Hillary. This was his answer: "I talk with Gary every other day, we?re on different coasts usually but we keep in touch and -- yeah, no I do not agree with that release. You know in fairness Gary and I have not agreed on a number of substantive issues in this campaign" So yes, Bill Weld does talk to his running mate and is giving him all the respect he deserves. And this is what Weld had to say about FBI director Comey's mysterious statement about Emails made just 11 days before the election: "It?s incomprehensible, and I can?t see it ? Mr. Comey?s got a good background but there?s nothing there, so far as it appears. Nothing there. So he wrote the letter to the eight Republican committee members copied to the Democrats saying ?you know some emails have turned up, we?ve looked at a lot of emails now it turns out there are even more emails ? we don?t know what?s there, so there?s absolutely no evidence whatsoever that could be of interest to anyone until we conduct our multi-week, multi-month investigation but I thought you?d all just like to know. Now I don?t get that ? that?s violating any number of Justice Dept. protocols and procedures. " And this is what Bill Weld had to say about Donald Trump: ?"? I ? ? see a big difference between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate. And I?ve been at some pains to say that I fear for the country if Mr. Trump should be elected. I think it?s a candidacy without any parallel that I can recall. It?s content-free and very much given to stirring up ambient resentment and even hatred. And I think it would be a threat to the conduct of our foreign policy and our position in the world at large. ? ? I think he showed in the debates when he encounters criticism or challenge he behaves the way a bully would. He just doesn?t take it well. He doesn?t deal well with criticism and blame and I don?t think he could competently manage the office of the presidency given the criticism and challenge that you face every single day as the President of the United States. He just would not be in his element and I think he would wobble off course and I think the country just can?t have that. ?" ? John K Clark > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:49:12 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 13:49:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2 November 2016 at 17:18, Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 12:19 PM, BillK wrote: >> Would people be allowed to marry more than one sex robot? > > Marry? That's a ways off. > Well, yes. 'Marry' was just a convenient word to use. Legally it would not be possible to marry an AI robot until it had achieved legal personhood status, with all the rights that go along with that. (And by then it would probably turn down my offer of marriage anyway). :) But AI robots could develop into becoming almost-human companions. In which case my query really asks whether there would be laws against every home becoming a mini-Playboy mansion with attractive sexbots attending to every whim of the owner. (Just can't get enough of these whims!). :) BillK From sparge at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:13:48 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 10:13:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:49 AM, BillK wrote: > But AI robots could develop into becoming almost-human companions. In > which case my query really asks whether there would be laws against > every home becoming a mini-Playboy mansion with attractive sexbots > attending to every whim of the owner. (Just can't get enough of these > whims!). :) > I have no doubt that there will be people who think sexbots should be illegal or regulated or restricted in any way imaginable. As a libertarian I don't any justification for that. The only gray area I see is "underage" sexbots. Currently, I think everywhere in the US, at least, any kind real or imagined sexual interaction (or attempted sexual interaction) with minors is illegal. Maybe pervs with underage sexbots would leave underage humans alone, but maybe it'd just reinforce their desire for the real thing. Perhaps something like a program where using/buying an underage sexbot would require declaring oneself a potential sexual predator and wearing a tracking anklet at all times would work. But is this a slippery slope? Will it open the door to restricting "rape" or "murder" of sexbots? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 14:43:40 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 07:43:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: <00a301d235e0$ab776240$026626c0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... >...Well, yes. 'Marry' was just a convenient word to use... >...But AI robots could develop into becoming almost-human companions. In which case my query really asks whether there would be laws against every home becoming a mini-Playboy mansion with attractive sexbots attending to every whim of the owner. (Just can't get enough of these whims!). :) BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, BillK your whimsical comment is an understatement in an important way. We can even imagine it as a kind explanation for the silence of the cosmos, or at least an explanation for how this planet could go dark: the technologically sophisticated portion of humanity mated with machines while the others sharpened their spears. The outcome was predictable. We can easily imagine a sexbot fashioned as a barely-legal and that might get plenty of market, but it doesn't necessarily work that way. Some men might choose a Jill-bot, Jill's outward appearance, memeset by... someone else. Pretty much anyone else. {8^D Carl Sagan? Or hey, Dr. Arroway from Contact. If we could build a good mechanical replica of THAT, then forget alien signals, never mind answering back: we are busy. But on to Dave's point about underage bots and murder-victim bots please: >...But is this a slippery slope? Will it open the door to restricting "rape" or "murder" of sexbots? Dave Sill Hard to say, I don't have those tastes. But this is a longstanding debate and I don't know where it went. When the Supreme Court decided all porno was legal back in the 1970s (first amendment) the debate asked if porno would make sex crime more frequent because it stimulated the appetite for such things, or less so because it partially satisfies it. My best guess is that it depends on the person. Anyone know? It wouldn't even need to sexbots. If one is a power lust sort, we can imagine a VR where every avatar bows to one's every whim and one lives in a sumptuous palace of one's own making. I don't know what a VR does to power lust; slakes the lusty appetite or whets it to a sharp edge, eager to slay in RR. spike From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 15:02:05 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 15:02:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: On 3 November 2016 at 14:13, Dave Sill wrote: > I have no doubt that there will be people who think sexbots should be > illegal or regulated or restricted in any way imaginable. As a libertarian I > don't any justification for that. The only gray area I see is "underage" > sexbots. Currently, I think everywhere in the US, at least, any kind real or > imagined sexual interaction (or attempted sexual interaction) with minors is > illegal. Maybe pervs with underage sexbots would leave underage humans > alone, but maybe it'd just reinforce their desire for the real thing. > Perhaps something like a program where using/buying an underage sexbot would > require declaring oneself a potential sexual predator and wearing a tracking > anklet at all times would work. But is this a slippery slope? Will it open > the door to restricting "rape" or "murder" of sexbots? > The problem I foresee is that sexbots will be *better* than the real thing. After all, bots are going to be taking over almost all human work, so why not take over 'the oldest profession' as well? Initially bots will be expensive, so damaging them would make one liable to a big claim for damages from the owner. As you say, to us, child sexbots are troublesome to consider. But future humans may see things differently. Just look at the changes in the last fifty years! Certainly plenty of work for lawyers ahead. BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 16:23:36 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:23:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> Message-ID: <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR On 3 November 2016 at 14:13, Dave Sill wrote: > ... The only gray area I see is "underage" sexbots... Dave For some time after they hit the market, they will *all* be underage. {8^D I see your point. We can deal. Read on please. >...The problem I foresee is that sexbots will be *better* than the real thing... BillK This is a problem? {8^D I see your point. We can deal. Read on please. If you have ever experimented with Pandora, you know where I am going with this next idea. Pandora plays songs for you and you can up vote it or down vote it. I think it takes into account how long you listened to a song, so if you down vote a song instantly, such as something from the hip-hop catastrophe, it will no longer insult your ears with any of that revolting garbage henceforth. But the algorithm is quite good. If you have musical tastes varied enough that you seem like two or three different people, Pandora can deal. It can play stuff in accordance with one's mood, say those of us who like classic country and classical, two very different forms but both pleasant depending on one's mood. They can be set up as stations, analogous to radio stations with different genres. It's cool! OK now, imagine your ideal Jill-bot, and your favorite style, but in addition to that style you have varied taste. Say you like schmoozy cuddly most of the time, but sometimes you like a little of the rough stuff, or silly funny or costumes and things, so it isn't all that simple. A human partner can get cues and react appropriately, but... I now start thinking about how to do a Pandora-like algorithm to train a Jill-bot to be fun, and perhaps be able to take on different personalities according to one's mood, like a Pandora station. Oh would that be cool or what? Could you imagine: your job is to train a Jack-bot to act certain way depending on a customer's whim. Or wait, let's turn this around. Ladies have a job of training Jill-bots to be certain things. We could have the real brainy Dr. Arroway Jills and train her to act the way she did in the video, and you get to pretend you are Joss Palmer. Wasn't Foster sweet, kind and smart in that? Oh I am so in love. Not with Foster, but with her character Dr. Arroway, oh mercy. OK so what if you want something other than Arroway once in a while. The customer has a streak of whatever it is that cause guys to want a stern schoolmistress to spank him or something. We can hire Catherine Herridge to train the Jill-bot. We can create sex-genres! Think about it, oh the possibilities! My son's school emphasizes that the kinds of jobs these children will take are ones that currently do not even exist. Well here ya go: sexbot trainer. Another variation on a theme: replicating the actual female parts turns out to be a very difficult mechanical problem. I consider myself a competent mechanical engineer with design experience, but that one has stumped the hell outta me. Nature is hard to beat in that. I don't think we are any closer now to that than we are to a mechanical pole vaulter. However... Some couples watch porno to get in the mood for each other. Tastes vary, and computers are cheap, so it is easy enough to imagine both partners watching their own favorite genre for half an hour or so, get it stirring, then meet upstairs when the timer goes off. OK so what if we have a kind of 3-D Jillbot, who is set with a genre, something fun and paradoxical, such as a bot that looks like the real-reality Jill but loves energy sources. THAT would get me turned on. Then we rely on what good old evolution has given us for the final act of the play. Both partners win. I would apply as a Jack-bot trainer and do the comedy genre. I do silly well. By bride loves it. BillK, it is eeeasy to foresee that sexbots will not only be better than the real thing, but waaaay better. But in this vision, they would be participants rather than competitors. spike From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 16:50:44 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00e901d235f2$6bb75360$4325fa20$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of spike ... >...My son's school emphasizes that the kinds of jobs these children will take are ones that currently do not even exist. Well here ya go...spike _______________________________________________ We picture porno stars as being young and athletic (not that I have ever seen one and know firsthand of course donchaknow (but I imagine it so.)) In that case, older guys need not apply, but for training bots, the older guys, especially those who have been happily married a long time, would be better than the young and inexperienced, ja? The bot doesn't care what color hair its coach wears. But there is a problem. Imagine formal dinner party, introductions being made by the prim and proper hostess in a long flowing gown: This is Dr. Mary Wilson, the neurosurgeon, this is Professor James Johnson, of Stanford University Aerospace Engineering, this is Spike Jones, the fuckbot trainer, comedy genre specialist... spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:22:02 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:22:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: the debate asked if porno would make sex crime more frequent because it stimulated the appetite for such things, or less so because it partially satisfies it. A real life experiment has already been done, long ago (to me, that's the 60s or 70s). Denmark passed a law that essentially made any kind of porn legal (I don't remember about S and M and whether there were restrictions on hurting people). It did not take long before Denmark became a worldwide travel site featuring sex clubs and porn. It was just amazing how fast it grew. Then slowly the locals got sated with it and mostly tourists were the patrons. Then they got competition from Thailand and so forth. But the thing we want to know: sex crimes actually went down significantly. "If you build it they will come". Ok, so what if there are sexbots? No big deal. I see it as a way celebrities can make tons more money by licensing their bodies and/or faces and voices to put on sex bots. As for underage sex, I think we should, as libertarians, study this a bit. Why shouldn't a 12 year old have sex? A six year old? Too young? Why are they too young? A perfect time to learn. If you are the type who thinks of childhood as a fantasy time where children are innocent and should be kept that way and believe in Santa Claus as long as possible, and adults are wicked and evil, then go jump off a cliff. Children's rights will be the next thing after women suck all the juice out of increased freedoms. Society is very, very hung up on sex and it's time to change that. The nudists have a point: to cover up something and tell children that touching and seeing and self-exploration are bad and wrong, deliver a potent message to these children, who go on to have sex as adults and not have the vaguest idea what they are doing. Result: men get their jollies in two minutes and women get left out. Women depend on men when they get married to know about sex. As a former teacher of the psych of sex class, I can affirm strongly that they don't. 25% of married women never have an orgasm. This truly is a shame and it is partly the man's fault and mostly society's fault for keeping sex knowledge out of the hands of children (17 years old and still legally a child? Really? Dumb dumb dumb.) Another point: wanting to have sex with a robot reveals to me a less than mature attitude toward sex. Wrong? No. Evidence of social phobias? Maybe. Neurosis? Maybe. After sex with to robot you might be told "Oh you were so wonderful and big and powerful and fantastic." Just who needs that? Give me real women with all of their faults and all of their tolerance of my faults. To me, sex is something you do with someone, not to someone. bill w On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:23 AM, spike wrote: > > >... On Behalf Of BillK > Subject: Re: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would > probably be with VR > > On 3 November 2016 at 14:13, Dave Sill wrote: > > > ... The only gray area I see is "underage" sexbots... Dave > > For some time after they hit the market, they will *all* be underage. {8^D > > > I see your point. We can deal. Read on please. > > >...The problem I foresee is that sexbots will be *better* than the real > thing... BillK > > This is a problem? {8^D > > I see your point. We can deal. Read on please. > > If you have ever experimented with Pandora, you know where I am going with > this next idea. Pandora plays songs for you and you can up vote it or down > vote it. I think it takes into account how long you listened to a song, so > if you down vote a song instantly, such as something from the hip-hop > catastrophe, it will no longer insult your ears with any of that revolting > garbage henceforth. But the algorithm is quite good. If you have musical > tastes varied enough that you seem like two or three different people, > Pandora can deal. It can play stuff in accordance with one's mood, say > those of us who like classic country and classical, two very different > forms > but both pleasant depending on one's mood. They can be set up as stations, > analogous to radio stations with different genres. It's cool! > > OK now, imagine your ideal Jill-bot, and your favorite style, but in > addition to that style you have varied taste. Say you like schmoozy cuddly > most of the time, but sometimes you like a little of the rough stuff, or > silly funny or costumes and things, so it isn't all that simple. A human > partner can get cues and react appropriately, but... I now start thinking > about how to do a Pandora-like algorithm to train a Jill-bot to be fun, and > perhaps be able to take on different personalities according to one's mood, > like a Pandora station. > > Oh would that be cool or what? Could you imagine: your job is to train a > Jack-bot to act certain way depending on a customer's whim. Or wait, let's > turn this around. Ladies have a job of training Jill-bots to be certain > things. We could have the real brainy Dr. Arroway Jills and train her to > act the way she did in the video, and you get to pretend you are Joss > Palmer. Wasn't Foster sweet, kind and smart in that? Oh I am so in love. > Not with Foster, but with her character Dr. Arroway, oh mercy. > > OK so what if you want something other than Arroway once in a while. The > customer has a streak of whatever it is that cause guys to want a stern > schoolmistress to spank him or something. We can hire Catherine Herridge > to > train the Jill-bot. We can create sex-genres! Think about it, oh the > possibilities! > > My son's school emphasizes that the kinds of jobs these children will take > are ones that currently do not even exist. Well here ya go: sexbot > trainer. > > Another variation on a theme: replicating the actual female parts turns out > to be a very difficult mechanical problem. I consider myself a competent > mechanical engineer with design experience, but that one has stumped the > hell outta me. Nature is hard to beat in that. I don't think we are any > closer now to that than we are to a mechanical pole vaulter. However... > Some couples watch porno to get in the mood for each other. Tastes vary, > and computers are cheap, so it is easy enough to imagine both partners > watching their own favorite genre for half an hour or so, get it stirring, > then meet upstairs when the timer goes off. OK so what if we have a kind > of > 3-D Jillbot, who is set with a genre, something fun and paradoxical, such > as > a bot that looks like the real-reality Jill but loves energy sources. THAT > would get me turned on. Then we rely on what good old evolution has given > us for the final act of the play. Both partners win. > > I would apply as a Jack-bot trainer and do the comedy genre. I do silly > well. By bride loves it. > > BillK, it is eeeasy to foresee that sexbots will not only be better than > the > real thing, but waaaay better. But in this vision, they would be > participants rather than competitors. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 17:29:50 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 17:29:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: <00e901d235f2$6bb75360$4325fa20$@att.net> References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> <00e901d235f2$6bb75360$4325fa20$@att.net> Message-ID: On 3 November 2016 at 16:50, spike wrote: > We picture porno stars as being young and athletic (not that I have ever > seen one and know firsthand of course donchaknow (but I imagine it so.)) In > that case, older guys need not apply, but for training bots, the older guys, > especially those who have been happily married a long time, would be better > than the young and inexperienced, ja? The bot doesn't care what color hair > its coach wears. > Your new career could be quite short. These AI bots learn from each other. Teach one and they all have access to that library. I see sexbots having a long menu of preferences that owners can select in any combination. And this works for females as well as males. What a paradise when the sex wars are over and everyone gets what they want! BillK From sparge at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 18:15:41 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:15:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 1:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Another point: wanting to have sex with a robot reveals to me a less than > mature attitude toward sex. Wrong? No. Evidence of social phobias? > Maybe. Neurosis? Maybe. After sex with to robot you might be told "Oh > you were so wonderful and big and powerful and fantastic." Just who needs > that? > > Give me real women with all of their faults and all of their tolerance of > my faults. To me, sex is something you do with someone, not to someone. > I think I've got a pretty mature attitude about sex, normal levels of social phobias, lack neurosis, prefer making love to fucking strangers, etc., but I see sex with sexbots as a form of masturbation, which is perfectly normal and part of a healthy sex life, even for a happily married man like myself. I've been married 35+ years and, in my experience, the times when my wife's sexual appetite has matched mine have been few and far between. She and I would both welcome a healthy and safe outlet for those times of mismatched libido. And another obvious application of sexbots that's already been discussed, teledildonics, would be great for couples geographically separated for whatever reason. Or how about teledildonics as a safe try-before-you-buy for dating couples? Or training in sexual technique? Who couldn't be a better lover with some professional training? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 19:19:31 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:19:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 3, 2016 10:23 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > As for underage sex, I think we should, as libertarians, study this a bit. Why shouldn't a 12 year old have sex? A six year old? Too young? Why are they too young? A perfect time to learn. This has been studied, in fact. You can research if you want, but the short version is, enforced sexual relations with others - and in practice (since children are physically unable to resist and often unable to determine if and when they should resist, to a degree beyond all but the least capable adults), legalizing underage sex leads, directly and inevitably in all actual cases so far (hypothetical utopias where everyone acts as they should don't exist in reality), to enforced sexual relations with others - at that age causes lasting, difficult-to-impossible to cure, psychological damage. ...yes, that is the *short* version. You see why I leave it to you to research the long one. :P -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Nov 3 19:31:56 2016 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:31:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CD Projekt Red Game Co. - Do you know? Message-ID: <000e01d23608$f05dc0c0$d1194240$@natasha.cc> Does anyone have a connection at CD Projekt Red? Thanks, Natasha Dr. Natasha Vita-More Faculty / Program Champion, Graduate Studies UNIVERSITY OF ADVANCING TECHNOLOGY LEARN. EXPERIENCE. INNOVATE. Chair, Humanity+ Co-Editor, Author: The Transhumanist Reader -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 3 19:38:46 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:38:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> Message-ID: <013101d23609$e4e9f870$aebde950$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill >?I've been married 35+ years and? Dave I read you wrong. I imagined from your posts that you are about 30. You are one of us! Cool, my bride and I are approaching our 33rd anniversary. Thanks for the post, very enlightening. > ?Or how about teledildonics as a safe try-before-you-buy for dating couples? ?-Dave Your comment gave me an idea. You go to the dentist, she puts this gooey stuff in a tray, you bite it, the gooey stuff sets in a couple minutes, creates a mold they put some other stuff in to create a 3D model of your chompers to sufficient accuracy to make a crown. Ja? OK cool, suppose a couple has been dating for a couple years and are in love but haven?t met. (There?s a sentence that would have made no sense before the internet.) Couple wants to try each other before either invests in a plane ticket, so here?s the plan: coffee can, that dental goo, man views potential bride online until appropriate reaction takes place, inserts product of reaction into coffee can of goo, goo sets, man turns away from Skype screen, the usual reaction takes place after removal of stimulation, man easly removes product of reaction from mold. Then man uses a rigid closed-cell foaming polymer to pour into the cavity created, making a 3D model of himself, cuts away the dental material leaving only the replica, sort of like a subset of Michelangelo?s David, in polymer foam rubber rather than marble, sends partial replica of himself to potential bride who attaches it to teledildonics machine which is operated remotely via Skype, with audio feedback. If both make and hear the appropriate sounds, and so forth, together they get, you?re welcome. I don?t expect you to put my name on the patent application, but if a happily married couple results and offspring are forthcoming, say nice things about me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cryptaxe at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 19:56:11 2016 From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 12:56:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CD Projekt Red Game Co. - Do you know? In-Reply-To: <000e01d23608$f05dc0c0$d1194240$@natasha.cc> References: <000e01d23608$f05dc0c0$d1194240$@natasha.cc> Message-ID: I bet they would respond to a simple email or Twitter message. Have you tried that? I could hunt down an email address for you if that would help. Someone else here might know someone, good luck! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 21:02:45 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 16:02:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: <013101d23609$e4e9f870$aebde950$@att.net> References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> <013101d23609$e4e9f870$aebde950$@att.net> Message-ID: This has been studied, in fact. You can research if you want, but the short version is, enforced sexual relations with others - and in practice (since children are physically unable to resist and often unable to determine if and when they should resist, to a degree beyond all but the least capable adults), legalizing underage sex leads, directly and inevitably in all actual cases so far (hypothetical utopias where everyone acts as they should don't exist in reality), to enforced sexual relations with others - at that age causes lasting, difficult-to-impossible to cure, psychological damage. adrian I certainly did not envision anyone at any age being forced, much less a child. I did envision the couple being of much the same age. If forced, at any age, it will lead to treating, or being treated as an object, not a person, and this, not to mince words, is slavery - about as far from my libertarian beliefs as it is possible to get. I have little doubt that research of the forced variety will show what Adrian said it will show. I have some doubts that underage couples who are having sex with mutual consent are always (always is such a strong word; often maybe?) developing psychological problems. As for sex with a robot as masturbation, I find nothing to disagree with about that, but a person who only uses prostitutes, alive or robotic, has a problem with women and perhaps people in general. There is someone for everyone (said Pollyanna). Unsatisfactory sex, at ANY age, can be successfully treated. Masters and Johnson found that interviews with problem couples usually revealed that both of them could just not tell the other person what they wanted - what would turn them on, sometimes because they were afraid that it would intimidate the partner and cause him or her to feel inadequate, even though inadequacy was what was being treated! In other cases one partner felt that the other would be disgusted by the desired sex acts - and often this is the case. "You want to do THAT!?" These fears have to be dealt with and M and J developed some techniques that are still used with success. Adrian - do you think that there is some age at which a person has an understanding of what it is that they are agreeing to do? Physically and esp. emotionally? No one can predict what their emotions will be. Of course that does not magically happen at 18. Some people don't have a clue way past that age. bill w On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 2:38 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Dave Sill > > > > *>?*I've been married 35+ years and? > > > > Dave I read you wrong. I imagined from your posts that you are about 30. > You are one of us! Cool, my bride and I are approaching our 33rd > anniversary. Thanks for the post, very enlightening. > > > > > > > ?Or how about teledildonics as a safe try-before-you-buy for dating > couples? ?-Dave > > Your comment gave me an idea. You go to the dentist, she puts this gooey > stuff in a tray, you bite it, the gooey stuff sets in a couple minutes, > creates a mold they put some other stuff in to create a 3D model of your > chompers to sufficient accuracy to make a crown. Ja? > > OK cool, suppose a couple has been dating for a couple years and are in > love but haven?t met. (There?s a sentence that would have made no sense > before the internet.) Couple wants to try each other before either invests > in a plane ticket, so here?s the plan: coffee can, that dental goo, man > views potential bride online until appropriate reaction takes place, > inserts product of reaction into coffee can of goo, goo sets, man turns > away from Skype screen, the usual reaction takes place after removal of > stimulation, man easly removes product of reaction from mold. Then man > uses a rigid closed-cell foaming polymer to pour into the cavity created, > making a 3D model of himself, cuts away the dental material leaving only > the replica, sort of like a subset of Michelangelo?s David, in polymer foam > rubber rather than marble, sends partial replica of himself to potential > bride who attaches it to teledildonics machine which is operated remotely > via Skype, with audio feedback. If both make and hear the appropriate > sounds, and so forth, together they get, you?re welcome. > > I don?t expect you to put my name on the patent application, but if a > happily married couple results and offspring are forthcoming, say nice > things about me. > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 03:39:38 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 20:39:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> <013101d23609$e4e9f870$aebde950$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 2:02 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Adrian - do you think that there is some age at which a person has an > understanding of what it is that they are agreeing to do? Physically and > esp. emotionally? No one can predict what their emotions will be. Of > course that does not magically happen at 18. Some people don't have a clue > way past that age. > Of course. But society needs a way to distinguish those who do not have that understanding, and thus are unable to accept responsibility for their actions, from those who do and can. Problem is, in practice any test of mental ability, of the form "answer these questions correctly or you're not an adult", tends to very quickly be repurposed into acceptance of correct thinking as defined by those in power. Vote for the wrong person? Try to help the disenfranchised or institutionally discriminated against? You must be insane - so society gets to lock you up, throw away the key, and confiscate your assets. With such tests off the table for practical reasons, society is left with very crude measures such as, "are you old enough?" This has worked well enough, until someone can come up with not just a better way (which is easy), but a way to keep that better way from becoming corrupted and/or massively distrusted, both during implementation and for at least many decades of use (which is very hard). Keep in mind: once you set it up you, personally, don't get to control it. It will be controlled by those in power. If you invest much fame or reputation into the test - probably necessary in order to get wide acceptance in the first place - they will gladly use that to give legitimacy to the version they morph to their eds. (They're rather good at that.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:29:58 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 08:29:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] If you built "Westworld" (or other robot sex) it would probably be with VR In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23515$34c4be20$9e4e3a60$@att.net> <00cb01d235ee$a181e9a0$e485bce0$@att.net> <013101d23609$e4e9f870$aebde950$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > With such tests off the table for practical reasons, society is left with > very crude measures such as, "are you old enough?" This has worked well > enough, until someone can come up with not just a better way (which is > easy), but a way to keep that better way from becoming corrupted and/or > massively distrusted, both during implementation and for at least many > decades of use (which is very hard). > Here's an obvious attempt: at age 18 everyone becomes a legal adult by default, but upon reaching some other age, say 13, juveniles can petition the (presumably state) court for a declaration of adulthood. The application could include a questionnaire and a 2-3 page essay by the applicant on why they believe they're an adult. Judges or designated case workers would interview applicants before the judge approves or denyies the application. If approved, the now young adult would be issued a state Legal Adult ID card. > Keep in mind: once you set it up you, personally, don't get to control > it. It will be controlled by those in power. If you invest much fame or > reputation into the test - probably necessary in order to get wide > acceptance in the first place - they will gladly use that to give > legitimacy to the version they morph to their eds. (They're rather good at > that.) > Leaving the decision to judges takes most of the political control out of the process. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:01:24 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:01:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff Message-ID: You may wonder why I keep droning on about this when clearly most don't want to talk about ?the election? and for the first time since I've been on the list members actually seem embarrassed by their political beliefs. It stays on my mind because on Tuesday there is a 36.3% chance the USA will hold its last real Presidential election. Trump has already expressed outrage that Hillary was even "allowed" to run for office, so in 2020 you're going to have to receive permission ?from ? the US government (led by Generalissimo Trump) to even become a Presidential candidate, and it would make no difference even if you w ?i? n because Trump will only declare that the election is legitimate if he wins. And Trump i ?s? the Commander in Chief. Spike ? ? turned out to be ? ? right when he said months ago "our next leader is being chosen by the FBI", but not because the indicted anybody but because ? ? of ? ? what ? ? FBI director ? ? Comey ? ? said one week ago today. It was looking like ? ? Hillary was heading for a landslide victory but then just 11 days before the ?election? Comey said in effect "I found something. It may indicate Hillary or somebody associated with Hillary did some bad stuff. Or it may indicate Hillary or somebody associated with Hillary did ? ? NOT do ? ? some bad stuff. In either case I have no idea what the "bad stuff" in question could be. I'm only telling you this to clear up any confusion or ambiguity you may have. Thank you and have a nice election". ? And then Hillary's numbers dropped like a rock just as Comey knew they were. Comey and Putin, the two puppet masters. ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:09:39 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:09:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, John, the FBI and Putin are working together to ensure a Trump win, and the republic will end with his election. We get it, can we move on to extropian topics on this list? Hillary wouldn't be in this position if she hadn't set up the personal server, and didn't have a campaign manager who was stupid enough to click on phishing links in his gmail account and not turn on two factor authentication or take suggestions from his own people to use encryption. So here we find ourselves... Is this going to continue on this list AFTER the election? Hypothetically, if Trump wins, I'd like to spend my last days before the nuclear winter on other topics. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:01 PM, John Clark wrote: > You may wonder why I keep droning on about this when clearly most don't > want to talk about > ?the election? > and for the first time since I've been on the list members actually seem > embarrassed by their political beliefs. It stays on my mind because on > Tuesday there is a 36.3% chance the USA will hold its last real > Presidential election. Trump has already expressed outrage that Hillary was > even "allowed" to run for office, so in 2020 you're going to have to > receive permission > ?from ? > the US government (led by Generalissimo Trump) to even become a > Presidential candidate, and it would make no difference even if you w > ?i? > n because Trump will only declare that the election is legitimate if he > wins. And Trump i > ?s? > the Commander in Chief. > > Spike > ? ? > turned out to be > ? ? > right when he said months ago "our next leader is being chosen by the > FBI", but not because the > > indicted anybody but because > ? ? > of > ? ? > what > ? ? > FBI director > ? ? > Comey > ? ? > said one week ago today. It was looking like > ? ? > Hillary was heading for a landslide victory but then just 11 days before > the > ?election? > Comey said in effect "I found something. It may indicate Hillary or > somebody associated with Hillary did some bad stuff. Or it may indicate > Hillary or somebody associated with Hillary did > ? ? > NOT do > ? ? > some bad stuff. In either case I have no idea what the "bad stuff" in > question could be. I'm only telling you this to clear up any confusion or > ambiguity you may have. Thank you and have a nice election". > ? And then Hillary's numbers dropped like a rock just as Comey knew they > were. Comey and Putin, the two puppet masters. > > ?John K Clark? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 4 21:47:44 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:47:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark >?It stays on my mind because on Tuesday there is a 36.3% chance the USA will hold its last real Presidential election? John K Clark? John this commentary by our own ExI-chat former poster Julian Assange should make you feel much more relaxed: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-04/julian-assange-says-trump-wont-be-allowed-win-clinton-and-isis-are-funded-same-money Julian has been right on in everything he has said to date. If he is right again, then you need not worry about what happens Tuesday; the USA has already had its last real election at some unknown date in the past. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:10:57 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:10:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> References: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2016 3:03 PM, "spike" wrote: > this commentary by our own ExI-chat former poster Julian Assange should make you feel much more relaxed: > > http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-04/julian-assange-says-trump-wont-be-allowed-win-clinton-and-isis-are-funded-same-money > > Julian has been right on in everything he has said to date. If he is right again, then you need not worry about what happens Tuesday; the USA has already had its last real election at some unknown date in the past. He may be right, but he overplays the conspiracy angle. If you have almost every institution of note in the US on your side in a presidential election, you by definition have a majority or near-majority of the popular vote too - certainly enough to legitimately claim a majority of the electoral college. You don't need to cheat to win at that point. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 4 22:01:28 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:01:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? RE: Election stuff Message-ID: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio >? Hypothetically, if Trump wins, I'd like to spend my last days before the nuclear winter on other topics? We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used for construction of bomb shelters and food storage I suppose, but there is a related topic that interests me. Back in the 70s Carl Sagan proposed a model for what would happen should the US and the commies go at it. But a lot has changed since those days. For instance, those models were based on the notion that nuclear war would kick up enormous amounts of dust and particulates, which would scatter sunlight and dim the earth?s surface causing cooling. But the same factors which did that would also create huge amounts of carbon dioxide which would warm the planet. So some extent, the particulate would also absorb and re-radiate solar energy, so that might participate in warming as well. So? should either of the two mainstream candidates win, which is looking pretty likely at this point, and that person starts WW3, will we get net cooling or net warming? And how do we find out which are likely targets, so that we know how elaborate to make our bomb shelters? How much food and ammo should we store? Iodine tablets? And since the two mainstreamers each have different opponents they intend to provoke (or have already provoked with accusations which have turned out to be false) only one of which has nukes, do not we need to wait until Tuesday?s result to determine if we need to make a shelter? Has anyone here followed nuclear winter models? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:21:21 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:21:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 11:24 PM, spike wrote: > > Is Bill Weld talking to his running mate? > ### This is an amazing development - the Libertarian Party has a VP candidate who is an actual politician, triangulating his position according to some power calculus, lying like the rest of them, rather than blissfully sharing his honest opinions with journalists. I am not sure if this is a good development or not. More lying could mean more winning for the LP but then perhaps fewer reasons to care about it. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:25:37 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:25:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > If you have almost every institution of note in the US on your side in a > presidential election, you by definition have a majority or near-majority > of the popular vote too > ### Is this a country of the institutions or a country of the people? Are the people just a tedious appendage, soon to be rendered superfluous by the robot revolution? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:51:28 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:51:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2016 3:26 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> If you have almost every institution of note in the US on your side in a presidential election, you by definition have a majority or near-majority of the popular vote too > > ### Is this a country of the institutions or a country of the people? Are the people just a tedious appendage, soon to be rendered superfluous by the robot revolution? No, but institutions are comprised of people. If you have an institution on your side, that means you have many - probably most - of the people who comprise that institution on your side. So if you have just about all of the institutions on your side... There are many people who are not part of any institution. But "many" is not "all". Citizens who work for the government or large companies are still citizens, with the right to vote according to their numbers (one person, one vote) just like most groupings of citizens. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 4 22:53:05 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:53:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? RE: Election stuff In-Reply-To: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> References: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> Message-ID: <001d01d236ee$34f56720$9ee03560$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike >? Back in the 70s Carl Sagan proposed a model for what would happen should the US and the commies go at it. But a lot has changed since those days. ?spike OK so according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, the worldwide stockpile of nukes is about a quarter what it was in 1980 when Carl Sagan told us we would freeze and starve if we survived the initial blasts. Where I live now, I would likely still perish in the initial exchange should the opponent be the commies, but not if the USA attacks ISIS. The currently-leading US presidential candidate has repeatedly accused the commies of stealing her damn emails, but reliable sources are now reporting it was an inside job. (This goes right back to a question I have been asking for some time: how do we know it is the commies doing this? Answer: we don?t. It wasn?t.) So the accusations themselves are an act of aggression against a probably non-participant. Fortunately, we have a big red OVERCHARGE button we might use to offer by way of apology, should Putin be in the mood to listen. Should the current second-running candidate manage to win against two major parties and most American institutions, Congress has time to remove from that office the authority to launch nukes. Since launching a nuke is the equivalent of a declaration of war, it is perfectly legitimate to do this. Understatement: the office of the president should never have had that authority. I can imagine a case where the US military technical staff quietly makes arrangements so that activation of the codes in the football would not directly send launch orders to the military but would send to the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader a request to launch. It would be their responsibility to send the orders to the military, since it would be a declaration of war. Then those two players get to decide if the strike is justified or if it is insanity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 23:19:30 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:19:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: ?> ? > We get it, can we move on to extropian topics on this list? ?OK so what do you want to talk about? let's see, maybe we could talk ? ?about the free market. No I forgot, we can't talk about that because Trump wants to do away with the free market. So let's talk about the freedom of the press. Whoops we can't talk about that either as Trump doesn't like it. Having control over your own body? Nope that's off limits because Trump want women punished who have abortions. Science? Afraid not, Donald (vaccines cause autism) Trump doesn't believe in science. No point in talking about a possible explanation of the Fermi Paradox either because a ET analogue of Donald Trump should be obvious for all to see, if not today then on Tuesday. I'm running out of topics. Extropians like to talk about the future but we may not have a future. ?> ? > Hillary wouldn't be in this position if she hadn't set up the personal > server, > ? and? [blah blah blah] > ?It's weird, in 4 days the human race ?will face its most serious existential crisis since the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 and yet some people are still babbling about a fucking Email server. ? John K Clark? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 23:37:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:37:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? RE: Election stuff In-Reply-To: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> References: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:01 PM, spike wrote: > > ?> ? > We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used for > construction of bomb shelters > > ?That and trading recipes for nice rat stew might be far more useful than talking about Nanotechnology or Cryonics or AI because we may indeed be approaching a Singularity, just not the sort we were expecting. ?But maybe Hillary's Email server is more important than any of that. ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 23:46:44 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:46:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? RE: Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> Message-ID: Look on the bright side, maybe you'll get an answer as to which side of the Great Filter we're on. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:37 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:01 PM, spike wrote: > >> > >> ?> ? >> We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used for >> construction of bomb shelters >> >> > ?That and trading recipes for nice rat stew might be far more useful than > talking about Nanotechnology or Cryonics or AI because we may indeed be > approaching a Singularity, just not the sort we were expecting. ?But maybe > Hillary's Email server is more important than any of that. > > ?John K Clark? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 5 01:05:36 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:05:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? Message-ID: <000201d23700$b7acf9a0$2706ece0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark ? On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:01 PM, spike > wrote: ?>>? ?We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used for construction of bomb shelters ?>?That and trading recipes for nice rat stew might be far more useful than talking about Nanotechnology or Cryonics or AI ??John K Clark? These matters are irrelevant if technologically advanced civilization perishes in nuclear winter. If we accept that there is a net cooling at the surface of the planet from particulate scattering energy, then perhaps we could compensate by cracking oil into methane and venting. Methane is such an excellent greenhouse gas, we may need it if we experience cooling from dust high in the atmosphere. We might even be able to come up with some first-order estimates on this: how much oil or coal would be needed to compensate, and for how long. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 03:35:25 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 23:35:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ?>>? >> Is Bill Weld talking to his running mate? >> >> > ?> ? > ### This is an amazing development - the Libertarian Party has a VP > candidate who is an actual politician, triangulating his position according > to some power calculus, lying like the rest of them, rather than blissfully > sharing his honest opinions with journalists. > ?Or could it be that Bill Weld is more moral and not as brain dead? ?dumb as his running mate? Not that it takes a genius to see the horror in a Donald Trump presidency. John K Clark > > I am not sure if this is a good development or not. More lying could mean > more winning for the LP but then perhaps fewer reasons to care about it. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 03:43:40 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 23:43:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: ?> ? > Is this going to continue on this list AFTER the election? > ?Forget the list, is ANYTHING ?going to continue after the election? I don't know, all I know is that there are 2 bullets in the 6-shooter aimed at our head and the trigger gets pulled on Tuesday. And some people still think a protest vote is a good idea!! John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 5 04:07:06 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:07:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01d2371a$12ef5d80$38ce1880$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark >?and yet some people are still babbling about a fucking Email server? John K Clark? John, it really isn?t about a server or email, any more than Nixon?s difficulties in 1974 were really about a tape recorder or audio tape. In that case, it was 26 months between the time we learned something was amiss to the time Nixon called it a day. Many of us to this day think he might have known his own guys did the Watergate break-in. So call me a conspiracy theorist. We first learned something was seriously amiss with Clinton in March 2015. If history repeats itself, she will get elected even under a cloud of suspicion as did Nixon in 72, end up cutting a deal with Tim Caine for a pardon in about May 2017 as Nixon did with Ford in August 74. In the meantime, new scandals will erupt about twice a week on average, filling the news cycles. It is easy enough to see how this will unfold. Reasoning: before the FBI announcement last week, we knew the leaked communications could have been doctored, since it had been in the possession of any of five hostile foreign governments thought to have accessed Clinton?s unsecured server. Perhaps they had been doctored by hostile foreign actors. But now? we have Huma Abedin?s computer which contains a stunning? six huuundred fifty thoooooooousand messages and these belong to us. We can verify any that leak from any other source by comparing to these, and we own them. They have never been in the hands of foreign actors, we own these. We paid for them in the form of Huma Abedin?s salary; they are ours, and they are subject to FOIA request. Julian was right all along: sunlight is the best disinfectant. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 5 04:16:20 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:16:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003901d2371b$5cde8fa0$169baee0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 8:44 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Election stuff On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Dylan Distasio > wrote: ?>>? Is this going to continue on this list AFTER the election? ?>?Forget the list, is ANYTHING ?going to continue after the election? ? John K Clark Of course John. Should Clinton win, the inauguration would not be until January. It would take a while to set up the no-fly zone in Syria, then it would be a couple more hours after that before the commies sent an anti-radar armed drone into that airspace to see if the US would fire on it, at which time it will return fire justifiably, destroying the radar station from which the missile was fired. Escalation is a good three months out. We have time to construct bomb shelters and put in food stores. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:08:43 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:08:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:35 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > ?Or could it be that Bill Weld is more moral and not as brain dead? > > ?dumb as his running mate? > ### A moralist saying that the witch of Chappaquiddick is "a person of high moral character. A reliable person and an honest person"? ROFLMAO If he said "Vote the nasty Hillary to avoid the monstrous Trump" I could just barely believe he is expressing an honest opinion but once he praised the crooked Hillary as a new incarnation of St Francis of Assisi I know he is a lying loser. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:14:26 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:14:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: <011401d236e5$141ea8d0$3c5bfa70$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Nov 4, 2016 3:26 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" > wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> If you have almost every institution of note in the US on your side in > a presidential election, you by definition have a majority or near-majority > of the popular vote too > > > > ### Is this a country of the institutions or a country of the people? > Are the people just a tedious appendage, soon to be rendered superfluous by > the robot revolution? > > No, but institutions are comprised of people. > ### Vicious swine are reliably attracted to some institutions. Having the Seekers for Truth and Penitence on your side would not be a badge of honor. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 5 14:20:31 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 07:20:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury Message-ID: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> We have always treated the unleashing of nuclear warfare between the US and Russia as total destruction of everything, and rightly so. But when I studied up on how much disarmament has happened in the past 25 years (three quarters of the nukes have been retired) and thought about how much tech development has occurred outside those nations, it occurred to me that plenty of stuff would survive if those two went at it. We have been talking about how methane in the atmosphere is 20 times more greenhousey than CO2 for instance, which suggests a way to compensate for particulates and the smoke which was once America and Russia in the upper atmosphere. I wouldn?t have said it 20 years ago, but now I think humanity could survive us. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:42:51 2016 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:42:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> Message-ID: A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or so nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. That study is what proved nuclear war is unwinnable, and may be why we're all alive today. Jason On Saturday, November 5, 2016, spike wrote: > > > We have always treated the unleashing of nuclear warfare between the US > and Russia as total destruction of everything, and rightly so. But when I > studied up on how much disarmament has happened in the past 25 years (three > quarters of the nukes have been retired) and thought about how much tech > development has occurred outside those nations, it occurred to me that > plenty of stuff would survive if those two went at it. We have been > talking about how methane in the atmosphere is 20 times more greenhousey > than CO2 for instance, which suggests a way to compensate for particulates > and the smoke which was once America and Russia in the upper atmosphere. > > > > I wouldn?t have said it 20 years ago, but now I think humanity could > survive us. Cool! > > > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:01:14 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:01:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: <003901d2371b$5cde8fa0$169baee0$@att.net> References: <003901d2371b$5cde8fa0$169baee0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:16 AM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > Of course John. Should Clinton win, the inauguration would not be until > January. It would take a while to set up the no-fly zone in Syria, ? That's true Clinton ? ? did propose a no-fly zone ? and yes it would take time to arrange ? as she went on to explain " *this would not be done just on the first day. This? ?would take a lot of negotiation*". ? ? Compare that with Trump's nuanced ? ? words of wisdom, "*I would bomb the shit out of them*". It's ? ? also interesting to hear what Trump has to say about combat when he did everything he could to make sure he was ? ? never personally involved in it, "*I love war in a certain way*"; ?I believe ? the technical term for ?somebody like ? that is ? ? "chickenhawk". ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 5 15:11:22 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:11:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: References: <003901d2371b$5cde8fa0$169baee0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00ca01d23776$dee9f970$9cbdec50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark . >? Clinton :"?[a no-fly zone] would not be done just on the first day. This would take a lot of negotiation". ? ? >? Trump's nuanced words of wisdom, "I would bomb the shit out of them". ? John K Clark I recommend not voting for these two deplorable warhawks. Where are the 60s peaceniks when we desperately need them? None of them seemed to get any traction at all this time around. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:43:43 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:43:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: <002d01d2371a$12ef5d80$38ce1880$@att.net> References: <002d01d2371a$12ef5d80$38ce1880$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:07 AM, spike wrote: ?>? > it had been in the possession of any of five hostile foreign governments > thought to have accessed Clinton?s unsecured server ? Says Fox's Bret Baier and virtually nobody else. ?Baier claimed that the FBI is reading "new Emails" from the Clinton Foundation ? ? ? ?that will lead to i ndictment ?s, but if that's true (extremely unlikely) it brings up 2 interesting points: 1) Whoever in the FBI leaked that information to Baier committed a felony, and so did the FBI agent who leaked the stuff about Weiner's computer. 2) The FBI has no warrant to read the private Emails of the Clinton Foundation, if they are reading them anyway then they are doing so illegally. So to sum up you were right Spike, it's starting to look like the FBI will pick our next leader. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Nov 5 15:51:29 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:51:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Election stuff In-Reply-To: <00ca01d23776$dee9f970$9cbdec50$@att.net> References: <003901d2371b$5cde8fa0$169baee0$@att.net> <00ca01d23776$dee9f970$9cbdec50$@att.net> Message-ID: Il 05/11/2016 16:11, spike ha scritto: > Where are the 60s peaceniks when we desperately need them? None of them > seemed to get any traction at all this time around. They are all in power or stoned. Many are both. Mirco From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:21:25 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:21:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ?> ? > If he said "Vote the nasty Hillary to avoid the monstrous Trump" I could > just barely believe he is expressing an honest opinion but once he praised > the crooked Hillary as a new incarnation of St Francis of Assisi I know he > is a lying loser. > ?So Hillary is no good, Trump is no good, and even the Libertarian candidate is no good. NOBODY is good enough for you. A cynic and a very naive person have a lot in common, one rejects everything and the other accepts everything; neither position requires any brainpower. The organ in the bone box sitting on the shoulders only comes in handy for people in the middle of that range. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 23:28:04 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 19:28:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:21 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:08 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> If he said "Vote the nasty Hillary to avoid the monstrous Trump" I could >> just barely believe he is expressing an honest opinion but once he praised >> the crooked Hillary as a new incarnation of St Francis of Assisi I know he >> is a lying loser. >> > > ?So Hillary is no good, Trump is no good, and even the Libertarian > candidate is no good. NOBODY is good enough for you. A cynic and a very > naive person have a lot in common, one rejects everything and the other > accepts everything; neither position requires any brainpower. The organ in > the bone box sitting on the shoulders only comes in handy for people in the > middle of that range. > ### Your postings to date make me think you are not in the middle of a range. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sat Nov 5 23:13:16 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:13:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <89d4d7f7-f11b-1613-8448-bb7a90b84ee7@aleph.se> Reposting a post to the previous thread that was swallowed by the list gremlins: The main effect is cooling in modern climate models. The Toon and Robock models typically use 5 Tg of black carbon for regional nuclear conflicts (remember, Pakistan and India are shooting at each other too, regardless of Trump) and 150 Tg for full-scale wars. Presumably there would be about the same order of magnitude or more CO2. Current carbon emissions are on the order of 10 Pg per year - a factor of 66 or so. The extra CO2 would contribute some extra heating. However, soot is many orders of magnitude better at absorbing light than CO2, so it wins and heats up the stratosphere instead of letting the troposphere absorb the heat - so as long as the optical depth is affected (about a decade). After that the extra CO2 would add heat, but emissions would likely strongly reduce in the intervening time, so it seems likely that the overall effect would be very minor. Overall Robock seems to be the one to follow in regards to models. There is not much competition in the nuclear climate model field - most researchers seem to think these models are not academically interesting, so they do not work on them. I have been working behind the scenes to change it (muhahaha), but I have a feeling that I might have to learn how to do climate codes myself to get it done properly. (Plus, just imagine the roleplaying game worldbuilding potential of having general circulation models at your fingertips!) On 2016-11-04 22:01, spike wrote: > > *From:*extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio > > >? Hypothetically, if Trump wins, I'd like to spend my last days > before the nuclear winter on other topics? > > We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used > for construction of bomb shelters and food storage I suppose, but > there is a related topic that interests me. Back in the 70s Carl > Sagan proposed a model for what would happen should the US and the > commies go at it. But a lot has changed since those days. For > instance, those models were based on the notion that nuclear war would > kick up enormous amounts of dust and particulates, which would scatter > sunlight and dim the earth?s surface causing cooling. But the same > factors which did that would also create huge amounts of carbon > dioxide which would warm the planet. So some extent, the particulate > would also absorb and re-radiate solar energy, so that might > participate in warming as well. > > So? should either of the two mainstream candidates win, which is > looking pretty likely at this point, and that person starts WW3, will > we get net cooling or net warming? And how do we find out which are > likely targets, so that we know how elaborate to make our bomb > shelters? How much food and ammo should we store? Iodine tablets? > And since the two mainstreamers each have different opponents they > intend to provoke (or have already provoked with accusations which > have turned out to be false) only one of which has nukes, do not we > need to wait until Tuesday?s result to determine if we need to make a > shelter? > > Has anyone here followed nuclear winter models? > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Fri Nov 4 23:46:30 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 23:46:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? RE: Election stuff In-Reply-To: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> References: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> Message-ID: <4c9f6c25-0fc9-f216-6c88-75a859cf5566@aleph.se> The main effect is cooling in modern climate models. The Toon and Robock models (http://climate.envsci.rutgers.edu/nuclear/) typically use 5 Tg of black carbon for regional nuclear conflicts (remember, Pakistan and India are shooting at each other too, regardless of Trump) and 150 Tg for full-scale wars. Presumably there would be about the same order of magnitude or more CO2. Current carbon emissions are on the order of 10 Pg per year - a factor of 66 or so. The extra CO2 would contribute some extra heating. However, soot is many orders of magnitude better at absorbing light than CO2, so it wins and heats up the stratosphere instead of letting the troposphere absorb the heat - so as long as the optical depth is affected (about a decade). After that the extra CO2 would add heat, but emissions would likely strongly reduce in the intervening time, so it seems likely that the overall effect would be very minor. Overall Robock seems to be the one to follow in regards to models. There is not much competition in the nuclear climate model field - most researchers seem to think these models are not academically interesting, so they do not work on them. I have been working behind the scenes to change it (muhahaha), but I have a feeling that I might have to learn how to do climate codes myself to get it done properly. (Plus, just imagine the roleplaying game worldbuilding potential of having general circulation models at your fingertips!) On 2016-11-04 22:01, spike wrote: > > *From:*extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio > > >? Hypothetically, if Trump wins, I'd like to spend my last days > before the nuclear winter on other topics? > > We could start a discussion on what kinds of strategies could be used > for construction of bomb shelters and food storage I suppose, but > there is a related topic that interests me. Back in the 70s Carl > Sagan proposed a model for what would happen should the US and the > commies go at it. But a lot has changed since those days. For > instance, those models were based on the notion that nuclear war would > kick up enormous amounts of dust and particulates, which would scatter > sunlight and dim the earth?s surface causing cooling. But the same > factors which did that would also create huge amounts of carbon > dioxide which would warm the planet. So some extent, the particulate > would also absorb and re-radiate solar energy, so that might > participate in warming as well. > > So? should either of the two mainstream candidates win, which is > looking pretty likely at this point, and that person starts WW3, will > we get net cooling or net warming? And how do we find out which are > likely targets, so that we know how elaborate to make our bomb > shelters? How much food and ammo should we store? Iodine tablets? > And since the two mainstreamers each have different opponents they > intend to provoke (or have already provoked with accusations which > have turned out to be false) only one of which has nukes, do not we > need to wait until Tuesday?s result to determine if we need to make a > shelter? > > Has anyone here followed nuclear winter models? > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:55:37 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 18:55:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?T=E2=80=8Bhe_Libertarian_Party=27s_vice_president?= =?utf-8?q?ial_nominee?= In-Reply-To: References: <007001d23581$b8f4f400$2adedc00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2016 4:29 PM, "Rafal Smigrodzki" wrote: > ### Your postings to date make me think you are not in the middle of a range. This is for the best. Someone posting from the middle of an actively used gun range is unlikely to post for long. ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 6 01:50:47 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 18:50:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <89d4d7f7-f11b-1613-8448-bb7a90b84ee7@aleph.se> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <89d4d7f7-f11b-1613-8448-bb7a90b84ee7@aleph.se> Message-ID: <022b01d237d0$323476b0$969d6410$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders . Subject: Re: [ExI] mutual assured injury >.The main effect is cooling in modern climate models. The Toon and Robock models typically use 5 Tg of black carbon for regional nuclear conflicts (remember, Pakistan and India are shooting at each other too, regardless of Trump) and 150 Tg for full-scale wars. Presumably there would be about the same order of magnitude or more CO2. Current carbon emissions are on the order of 10 Pg per year - a factor of 66 or so. . >.Overall Robock seems to be the one to follow in regards to models. There is not much competition in the nuclear climate model field - most researchers seem to think these models are not academically interesting, so they do not work on them. I have been working behind the scenes to change it (muhahaha), but I have a feeling that I might have to learn how to do climate codes myself to get it done properly. Anders My intuition is that somehow the overall impact would need to be cooling in the short run, net warming in the long run. Reasoning: soot in the upper atmosphere (the remains of USA and Russia) would decrease albedo so in the long run would absorb more solar energy while blocking solar energy to the surface in the short run. I am looking into the bovine models. We are told that cow farts are introducing huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere, and that corn-fed cows create way more methane than grass-fed. My intuition drives me to conclude that we could create enormous vats in which we mimic whatever reaction is taking place inside cows, convert corn to methane directly, use that to greenhouse our way over the cold decade after we nuke ourselves. Wouldn't that work? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lubkin at unreasonable.com Sun Nov 6 01:38:28 2016 From: lubkin at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 21:38:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] nuclear... winter? summer? In-Reply-To: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> References: <012701d236e6$ff383f60$fda8be20$@att.net> Message-ID: <201611060235.uA62ZEJG003705@ziaspace.com> Spike wrote: >Back in the 70s Carl Sagan proposed a model for what would happen >should the US and the commies go at it. : >Has anyone here followed nuclear winter models? Not recently. But the original 1983 TTAPS (Turco, Toon, Ackerman, Pollack, and Sagan) paper was bad science. The scenario was unrealistic, the modeling was simplistic, and it appears that it was basically a no-nukes propaganda exercise. I was at LLNL then, and our atmospheric modeling group demolished their paper. (That same group was given exclusive use of all the main computer center's Crays to model the radioactive cloud from Chernobyl two years later. Their work went to Reagan, who used it to force the Soviets to acknowledge the extent of the disaster and to provide warning to the countries in the cloud's path.) -- David. From anders at aleph.se Sat Nov 5 23:08:31 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:08:31 +0000 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> Message-ID: <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> On 2016-11-05 14:42, Jason Resch wrote: > A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or > so nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. Any cites for that? I have not come across anything like that in my research, and find it implausible. "The Distribution and Effects of Fallout in Large Nuclear Weapon Campaigns" was cited by Pauling in his Nobel speech with some numbers that reached the billion mark, but that paper looked at *optimal* fallout spreading for maximizing causalities. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From jasonresch at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 06:13:01 2016 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 01:13:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> Message-ID: Anders, It looks like I may have misremembered the figures, but the citation I was thinking of was this page from the book "The Many Worlds of Hugh Everett": https://books.google.com/books?id=dqgqPjqIyJoC&pg=PT563&lpg=PT563&dq=hugh+pugh+fallout+study&source=bl&ots=3-zzfI8T4W&sig=M-5cwm6zmC2y6HKSZ16Gf4M9jSs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirpp_9tJPQAhXk7oMKHflmAWkQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=the%20sanitized%20version&f=false The sanitized version of "Simple Formulas for Calculating the Distribution > and Effects of Fallout in Large Nuclear Weapon Campaigns (With > Applications)" concluded that any large scale use of nuclear weapons would > result in a huge proportion of the population being disabled or killed by > fallout. It effectively discredited the prevailing assumption among > operations researchers that casualties would be "manageable" in a nuclear > exchange. It adds: So valuable was their fallout report that Everett and Pugh were authorized > to sanitize it, stripping out references to specific targets and other top > secrets. It was made public during hearings before the Special > Sub-Committee on Radiation of the Joint Congressional Committee on Atomic > Energy. And the March 1959 issue of Operations Research published the study > with the authors' optimistic forward: It is the hope of the authors ... that the results here indicated will > illustrate the catastrophic effects of a large nuclear campaign, > regardless of specific targeting doctrine. Perhaps the public release of > this information will serve to reduce the probability that such conflicts > will occur. Linus Pauling credited Everett and Pugh by name in his Nobel Lecture upon > receiving the 1962 Nobel Peace Prize for his work on nuclear disarmament, > (in 1954, he had been awarded the Nobel Prize for chemistry). Referring to > their study, Pauling estimated, that 60 days after the day on which the war [between the U.S. and the > Soviet-Chinese blocs] was waged 720 million of the 800 million people in > these countries would be dead, 60 million would be alive but severely > injured. and: The fallout study was one of the first studies in a growing body of > research showing that even a small nuclear war would be lethal beyond all > imaging. In 1983, a distinguished panel of scientists determined that the > smoke and fires from burning cities caused by exploding the 1,000 bombs SAC > planned to drop on the Soviet Union as early as 1953 would have triggered a > "nuclear winter" that "enshrouded the earth in darkness and eventually > extinguishing all life." Jason > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Anders wrote: > On 2016-11-05 14:42, Jason Resch wrote: > >> A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or so >> nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. >> > > Any cites for that? I have not come across anything like that in my > research, and find it implausible. > > "The Distribution and Effects of Fallout in Large Nuclear Weapon > Campaigns" was cited by Pauling in his Nobel speech with some numbers that > reached the billion mark, but that paper looked at *optimal* fallout > spreading for maximizing causalities. > > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:11:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 13:11:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Anders wrote: ?>> ? >> On 2016-11-05 14:42, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > ? ? >> A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or so >> nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. >> > > ?> ? > Any cites for that? I have not come across anything like that in my > research, and find it implausible. > It probably comes from Peter Byrne's book "The Many Worlds Of Hugh Everett". ? ? Byrne claims that Everett ? ? was one of the first to point out that any defense against intercontinental ballistic missiles would be ineffectual and building an anti-ballistic missile system could not be justified except for "*political or psychological grounds*". Byrne makes the case that Everett was the first one to convince high military leaders through mathematics and no nonsense non sentimental reasoning that a nuclear war could not be won. Byrne says Everett showed that ? * ?* *"after an attack by either superpower on the other, the majority of the attacked population that survived the initial blasts would be sterilized and gradually succumb to leukemia. Livestock would die quickly and survivors would be forced to rely on eating grains potatoes and vegetables. Unfortunately the produce would be seething with radioactive Strontium 90 which seeps into human bone marrow and causes cancer".* ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 18:59:17 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 12:59:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> Message-ID: *Unfortunately the produce would be seething with radioactive Strontium 90 which seeps into human bone marrow and causes cancer".* ?John K Clark? I read that every one of us has strontium 90 in our bones. How much is too much? bill w On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 12:11 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Anders wrote: > > ?>> ? >>> On 2016-11-05 14:42, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> ? ? >>> A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or >>> so nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. >>> >> >> ?> ? >> Any cites for that? I have not come across anything like that in my >> research, and find it implausible. >> > > It probably comes from Peter Byrne's book "The Many Worlds Of Hugh > Everett". > ? ? > Byrne claims that Everett > ? ? > was one of the first to point out that any defense against > intercontinental ballistic missiles would be ineffectual and building an > anti-ballistic missile system could not be justified except for "*political > or psychological grounds*". Byrne makes the case that Everett was the > first one to convince high military leaders through mathematics and no > nonsense non sentimental reasoning that a nuclear war could not be won. > Byrne says Everett showed that > ? * ?* > *"after an attack by either superpower on the other, the majority of the > attacked population that survived the initial blasts would be sterilized > and gradually succumb to leukemia. Livestock would die quickly and > survivors would be forced to rely on eating grains potatoes and vegetables. > Unfortunately the produce would be seething with radioactive Strontium 90 > which seeps into human bone marrow and causes cancer".* > > ?John K Clark? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 6 20:16:05 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 12:16:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> Message-ID: <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> Subject: Re: [ExI] mutual assured injury ?>> ?On 2016-11-05 14:42, Jason Resch wrote: A study by Hugh Everett showed even a small nuclear exchange of 100 or so nukes would lead to the deaths of billions from radioactive pollution. >?Unfortunately the produce would be seething with radioactive Strontium 90 which seeps into human bone marrow and causes cancer"?. John K Clark? ?These kinds of analyses also need to be revisited. I had not followed it, so it was news to me that the worldwide nuclear stockpile had reduced to a quarter of what it was in the time of Gorby and Reagan accords. Also to be revisited is the notion that nuclear deterrence is useless. In the early 90s, endgame defense from an ICBM was considered a fantasy, but so was a rocket that could descend nozzle-down and land on its feet. Well, it can do that now. We have endgame defense against an ICBM now as well. Recall that in the late 90s, those THAAD missiles started to hit targets, right around the same time that a supercomputer beat the world champion in chess. A lot has changed since then. Now, a telephone can beat the world champion in chess (without calling a friend or needing charging during the game.) OK so what can that endgame defense do now? We don?t know, but if it hits its target, the nuclear explosion never takes place because the warhead is destroyed on impact, there is no Strontium 90, none of the horrors that made up the reports written back in the day. The THAAD arsenal did not exist then, but they have been in steady production ever since back then. With the technologies quietly developed in the past 20 years, there is a chance some USians and Russians could survive an anticipated escalation of hostilities with not all major cities destroyed and the global environmental destruction resulting in fewer than a billion human casualties. The whole notion was ridiculed back in the 90s. Perhaps it will vindicate itself by holding worldwide casualties to a mere few hundred million. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 21:55:50 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:55:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Oops, Just ignore what we said last Friday Message-ID: It's probably too late to effect the election now but within the last hour the FBI announced there was nothing of interest on Anthony Weiner's computer about Hillary Clinton after all, so we should disregard what they said last Friday. The thought of hundreds of macho FBI agents feverishly combing through Weiner's computer and finding nothing but dick pictures would be comical if it didn't lead to a 35% chance of Donald Trump becoming president and the end of the world as we know it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:02:08 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:02:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Oops, Just ignore what we said last Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it's quite impressive they reviewed over 650,000 emails in one week. I'm sure you also have no concern with a maid with no security clearance printing out classified emails from a personal account. On Nov 6, 2016 4:56 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > It's probably too late to effect the election now but within the last hour > the FBI announced there was nothing of interest on Anthony Weiner's > computer about Hillary Clinton after all, so we should disregard what they > said last Friday. The thought of hundreds of macho FBI agents feverishly > combing through Weiner's computer and finding nothing but dick pictures > would be comical if it didn't lead to a 35% chance of Donald Trump becoming > president and the end of the world as we know it. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Sun Nov 6 13:27:27 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 13:27:27 +0000 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <022b01d237d0$323476b0$969d6410$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <89d4d7f7-f11b-1613-8448-bb7a90b84ee7@aleph.se> <022b01d237d0$323476b0$969d6410$@att.net> Message-ID: <5b2f0a5b-b021-c198-c0cb-1aa58a7477df@aleph.se> On 2016-11-06 01:50, spike wrote: > > My intuition is that somehow the overall impact would need to be > cooling in the short run, net warming in the long run. Reasoning: soot > in the upper atmosphere (the remains of USA and Russia) would decrease > albedo so in the long run would absorb more solar energy while > blocking solar energy to the surface in the short run. > The issue is that the stratosphere is efficient at re-radiating higher temperatures to space, while the troposphere isn't. Make the stratosphere black and it heats up (which contributes to the stability of the nuclear winter), but most of the absorbed heat is emitted into space rather than down to the ground. > I am looking into the bovine models. We are told that cow farts are > introducing huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere, and that > corn-fed cows create way more methane than grass-fed. My intuition > drives me to conclude that we could create enormous vats in which we > mimic whatever reaction is taking place inside cows, convert corn to > methane directly, use that to greenhouse our way over the cold decade > after we nuke ourselves. > Unfortunately, methane has GWP of merely 86 times CO2. So you would need to boost the methane content like 1/86 of the CO2 that would counteract the nuclear winter. We are talking about 10+ degrees here, so we would need something like an increase of methane emissions by a factor of 12+. So we are talking about 360 million tons per year or more. I think ameliorating nuclear (or asteroid, or supervolcano) winter using greenhouse gas is not totally crazy. Many fluorocarbons have much greater greenhouse potential (carbon tetraflouride has 50,000!) You would need to manufacture and release them in the aftermath of a nuclear war which is tough, and I can see some serious issues about both risks of having stores (if there was an accidental or deliberate release they would do bad things to a normal climate). There are also the problem with lack of light and ozone layer, which would be bad for agriculture even if it was not freezing. But these issues can be analysed and worked out, and I think they should be checked just in case. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:18:33 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 3:16 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > In the early 90s, endgame defense from an ICBM was considered a fantasy, > but so was a rocket that could descend nozzle-down and land on its feet. > Well, it can do that now. We have endgame defense against an ICBM now as > well. ?But no matter how much technology improves it's always going to be cheaper to shoot a bullet at a stationary target ?than it is to hit a speeding bullet with another speeding bullet, and if it's cheaper than you can have more of them. And the offence doesn't need to be anywhere near to being perfect, but even if the defense is successful in shooting down 99% of the ICBM's it would still lead to the greatest catastrophe in human history. ?> ? > the nuclear explosion never takes place because the warhead is destroyed > on impact, there is no Strontium 90, none of the horrors that made up the > reports written back in the day. ?A?cording to ? Robert Serber ? , the physicist who wrote the ? first ? lectures ? on ? how to ?build? ? a atomic bomb at Los Alamos ?,? Edward Teller pushed for the development of a ? 10, ? 000 megaton hydrogen bomb ? . He reasoned ?it ? would be cheap and would require no delivery system ?because " that particular design would probably kill everyone on Earth, ?so ? there was no use carting it anywhere ?".? > ?> ? > Perhaps it will vindicate itself by holding worldwide casualties to a mere > few hundred million. ?I quote General "Buck" Turgidson from the movie Doctor Strangelove: "*Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks." * John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:27:12 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:27:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Oops, Just ignore what we said last Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > Yes, it's quite impressive they reviewed over 650,000 emails in one week. > > ?No not impressive at all, it should not have taken a week it should have taken less than a hour. I t's easy for a computer to tell you that all 650,000 of the emails are just duplicates of ones you looked at months ago ?and already found to be of no interest. ? John ?K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:38:20 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 17:38:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Oops, Just ignore what we said last Friday In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, thanks for filling us in; I missed the part where they announced they were all dupes. I thought there might have been some of those missing yoga routines on there, but I don't expect to ever find out. On Nov 6, 2016 5:27 PM, "John Clark" wrote: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > Yes, it's quite impressive they reviewed over 650,000 emails in one week. > > ?No not impressive at all, it should not have taken a week it should have taken less than a hour. I t's easy for a computer to tell you that all 650,000 of the emails are just duplicates of ones you looked at months ago ?and already found to be of no interest. ? John ?K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 6 22:32:46 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 14:32:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> Message-ID: <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark ? ?>?I quote General "Buck" Turgidson from the movie Doctor Strangelove: "Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks." John K Clark John, I trust realize that you have been head cheerleader for a candidate who has already committed repeated hostile actions towards a major nuclear power in the form accusations regarding the email which turned out to be false, which are hostile actions in themselves. A simple OVERCHARGE button may not easily reset damaged international relations. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 6 22:35:27 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 14:35:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <5b2f0a5b-b021-c198-c0cb-1aa58a7477df@aleph.se> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <89d4d7f7-f11b-1613-8448-bb7a90b84ee7@aleph.se> <022b01d237d0$323476b0$969d6410$@att.net> <5b2f0a5b-b021-c198-c0cb-1aa58a7477df@aleph.se> Message-ID: <018701d2387e$12bbfbb0$3833f310$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Anders . >.I think ameliorating nuclear (or asteroid, or supervolcano) winter using greenhouse gas is not totally crazy.. But these issues can be analysed and worked out, and I think they should be checked just in case. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Ja, and the models need to be updated. It must be considered good news that nuclear stockpiles have been reduced as much as they have, and anti-ICMB tech has proliferated. Regarding a re-entry body, many of the details are classified (or were back when that actually meant something) so we don't know for sure. A modern nuke has a fusion core which is detonated by a fission device which is detonated by high explosive arranged in a sphere, which is detonated in a controlled manner by electrical signal simultaneously at multiple locations on the surface of the sphere. The circuitry must work perfectly to cause the sphere to implode symmetrically to cause a fission reaction of near optimal yield to detonate the fusion device. If any link in that chain doesn't work right, that round is a dud. If the trigger device fails and the RB strikes the ground, no fusion reaction for sure and most likely not much fission. If there are way more of those THAAD missiles and other countermeasures than we know, some and perhaps most of the incoming warheads could be destroyed, leading to survival of millions of Americans. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 23:05:55 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 18:05:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:32 PM, spike wrote: > > ? > >John, I trust realize that you have been head cheerleader for a candidate > who has already committed repeated hostile actions towards a major nuclear > power in the form accusations regarding the email which turned out to be > false, which are hostile actions in themselves. > > ?I'm not following you Spike. ? ?The intelligence community of the USA is as certain as they are of anything that Russia hacked the democrat's computer and give the information to W ikileaks ? to influence the election in Trump's favor.? John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 6 23:18:21 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:18:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> Message-ID: <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 3:06 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] mutual assured injury On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:32 PM, spike > wrote: ? >John, I trust realize that you have been head cheerleader for a candidate who has already committed repeated hostile actions towards a major nuclear power in the form accusations regarding the email which turned out to be false, which are hostile actions in themselves. ?I'm not following you Spike. ? ?The intelligence community of the USA is as certain as they are of anything that Russia hacked the democrat's computer and give the information to W ikileaks ? to influence the election in Trump's favor.? John K Clark Sure, but there are now at least five different foreign entities which are believed to have accessed the server, that we know of, and there may be others. Now we hear plausible evidence that at least some of the leaks were an inside job. Considering that, there is zero justification for repeated accusations that the Russians are playing American roulette. In the likely event they did get that stuff, I would think they would hold it until after the inauguration, when they can cause REAL chaos with it. The commies would want to see a candidate sworn in for whom they hold the files. You know I don?t cotton to commies; they don?t approve of me either. But we don?t know this was the Russians who did this. It certainly isn?t proven to the point it is justifiable to accuse them before the world of attempting regime change. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:09:47 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:09:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:18 PM, spike wrote: > > Sure, but there are now at least five different foreign entities which > are believed to have accessed the server, > ?So said Fox's Bret Baier, who on Friday had to apologize on the air for saying the FBI's ? investigation into the Hillary Clinton Foundation was moving toward a ?likely indictment.? > Considering that, there is zero justification for repeated accusations > that the Russians are playing American roulette. We know for a fact somebody stole tens of thousands of emails from the democratic server (not to be confused with Hillary's server). The NSA says it was the Russians who hacked ?it. Wikileaks ? dribbled out ? tens of thousands of emails from ?the? ?? democratic ?email ? server ? in a way that would maximize embarrassment to Clinton? ?. So you tell me, where do you suppose Wikileaks got those emails, and who do you suppose Vladimir Putin ? and Julian Assange ? want to be president, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton? ? > ?> ? > we don?t know this was the Russians who did this. > > ?The NSA says they know exactly who did it and it was the Russians, and they know more about electronic espionage ? than I do so I believe them. ?Yes Trump says they didn't do it but the NSA is far more trustworthy than Trump, and in light of developments in the last 10 days more trustworthy than the FBI too. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:18:38 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:18:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: The fact that you trust anything coming out of the NSA explains a great deal about your overall position. Thanks for illuminating us. On Nov 6, 2016 8:10 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > > ?The NSA says they know exactly who did it and it was the Russians, and they know more about electronic > espionage > ? than I do so I believe them. ?Yes Trump says they didn't do it but the NSA is far more trustworthy than Trump, and in light of developments in the last 10 days more trustworthy than the FBI too. > > John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 01:23:15 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:23:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:18 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > The fact that you trust anything coming out of the NSA explains a great > deal about your overall position. Thanks for illuminating us. > > ?You are entirely welcome. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Nov 7 01:39:16 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders Sandberg) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 01:39:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> Message-ID: <84003e93-bd3d-2de9-f42f-152b3c877ab6@aleph.se> The fallout numbers are pretty suspect. Everett's calculations were done without modern computing and were relatively crude. Back then people did also focus a lot on the fallout risk (perhaps due to the aftermath of Castle Bravo) while the climate effects were not recognized. The problem is updating models for modern weapons. Yields have gone down due to better targeting, which is great from a climate risk standpoint. The fallout depends on composition and of course on the number of weapons used. One can make good guesses even without classified information. But there is still a fair bit of work that needs to be done. As for antiballistic defenses, I have my doubts. They are surely better than they were. But the game theory of the situation is relevant: if I think you have a working system I will not fire at you - but if I lack it I may go for a desperate maneouver, since you may do a pre-emptive strike on me that I cannot retaliate against effectively. If I think you are just boasting, then I may be more secure about a MAD situation. But if you look like you will be getting a working system in the near future, then it makes sense to strike before it is up if I think I might be pre-emptively attacked at some point. If we both have systems that are good, then things are stable again (no MAD, but mutual assured injury). So it might actually be rational to share the antiballistic technology. Not that it will happen, of course. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 7 02:42:52 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 18:42:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00a301d238a0$a3a81470$eaf83d50$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] mutual assured injury On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:18 PM, spike > wrote: ?>>? ?we don?t know this was the Russians who did this. ?>?The NSA says they know exactly who did it and it was the Russians, and they know more about electronic espionage than I do so I believe them? John K Clark There is a critically important nuance: the NSA can verify the Russians hacked the server, but they don?t know who else did as well. Even if we prove the Russians hacked the server, we still don?t know if they were Assange?s source. Other parties may also have the information by some other means. We now know of 650,000 messages on Anthony Wiener?s computer. Weiner had no security clearance. How do we know that wasn?t hacked? How did he get them? Now we learn housekeeper Marina Santos had access to the classified files, a Filipino immigrant with no security clearance. How do we know she didn?t leak it to someone? How do we know for sure the Russians released what they hacked? We don?t. The Russians might be holding until after the election. They might prefer Tim Caine to the alternative (imagine that.) There are plenty of possible ways Assange could have gotten that information. We don?t know the Russians did that. Accusing Russians is not wise, when an uncleared Filipino housekeeper had access. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 03:23:43 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:23:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <00a301d238a0$a3a81470$eaf83d50$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> <00a301d238a0$a3a81470$eaf83d50$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 9:42 PM, spike wrote: ?> ? > We now know of 650,000 messages on Anthony Wiener?s computer. Weiner had > no security clearance. How do we know that wasn?t hacked? ?The FBI just told us it makes no difference if Weiner's computer was hacked or not because there was nothing a foreign government would find of interest ?in those 650,000 emails, unless they like pictures of Wiener's dick. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 7 03:32:43 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:32:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> <00a301d238a0$a3a81470$eaf83d50$@att.net> Message-ID: <00f301d238a7$99c1e240$cd45a6c0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 7:24 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] mutual assured injury On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 9:42 PM, spike > wrote: ?> ? We now know of 650,000 messages on Anthony Wiener?s computer. Weiner had no security clearance. How do we know that wasn?t hacked? ?The FBI just told us it makes no difference if Weiner's computer was hacked or not because there was nothing a foreign government would find of interest ?in those 650,000 emails, unless they like pictures of Wiener's dick. John K Clark But how do we know that whatever means that info got to Wiener?s computer was not used to send a pile of stuff somewhere else that still hasn?t been found? They needed to hide that 18 minutes of audio or 33,000 emails (I do sometimes conflate those two) so they perhaps shuttled them elsewhere. The real problem here is that even if we can show that the Russians hacked the server, we still don?t know if they were Julian Assange?s source. He isn?t telling. But they are being accused. From the Russian?s point of view, they would be better off holding until after the inauguration. If the Russians did leak this, we don?t know if they leaked everything they have (my guess is they didn?t.) They can keep Clinton busy dodging indictments from day one until she finally just decides to announce a medical retirement at about day 70 (my estimate for how long it will take.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 17:39:57 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 12:39:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] mutual assured injury In-Reply-To: <00f301d238a7$99c1e240$cd45a6c0$@att.net> References: <007f01d2376f$c40ab7e0$4c2027a0$@att.net> <60f44b61-72b6-4d01-8c2d-d00660e02389@aleph.se> <00c901d2386a$9abbbf50$d0333df0$@att.net> <018201d2387d$b2cb6fb0$18624f10$@att.net> <01e001d23884$10e99df0$32bcd9d0$@att.net> <00a301d238a0$a3a81470$eaf83d50$@att.net> <00f301d238a7$99c1e240$cd45a6c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:32 PM, spike wrote: ?> ? > But how do we know that whatever means that info got to Wiener?s computer > was not used to send a pile of stuff somewhere else that still hasn?t been > found? > ?But how do we know that the Russians didn't hack into Trump's computer and steal scandalous emails and Trump was too stupid to know he's been hacked or too dishonest to tell us? ? > ?>? > They needed to hide that 18 minutes of audio or 33,000 emails > ? ? > (I do sometimes conflate those two) > ?Actually the FBI did say than in addition to the hundreds of thousands of duplicate ?emails they did find a few from Clinton that they hadn't seen before, but they were of a personal nature and not relevant to their investigation. It looks like they found those yoga routines you were so interested in. ?> ? > The real problem here is that even if we can show that the Russians hacked > the server, we still don?t know if they were Julian Assange?s source. > ?Oh come on Spike! I'll make 6 points and let you fill in the blanks and figure out what Assange's source was: ? 1)We know for sure that the Democratic computer was hacked and thousands of emails were stolen. 2) The NSA is certain the Russians did the hack. 3) The ?re? is no evidence the ? ? the Democratic computer was hacked ? ? more than once. 4) There is reason to believe Vladimir Putin ? ? does not like Hillary. 5) There is reason to believe Julian ? ? Assange ? ? does not like Hillary ?.? 6) Wikileaks ? ? released thousand of emails from the Democratic computer, none revealed illegal or even immoral activity but they were embarrassing, the sort of chitchat and gossip and bitching that has occurred in every campaign since the beginning of time but isn't usually made public. And by the way, Hillary was not responsible for Wikileaks or the security of the Democratic computer, it wasn't her's and she wasn't even the party's nominee when the hack occurred. ? > ?> ? > If the Russians did leak this, we don?t know if they leaked everything > they have (my guess is they didn?t.) > They can keep Clinton busy dodging indictments from day one until she > finally just decides to announce a medical retirement at about day 70 (my > estimate for how long it will take.) ?You seem to be assuming the FBI/Russian coup will be unsuccessful and Hillary will get elected after all. We'll find out tomorrow. ? ? J?ohn K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Tue Nov 8 08:55:21 2016 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 00:55:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Abandoned in space in 1967, a US satellite has started transmitting again Message-ID: https://m.thevintagenews.com/2016/10/31/abandoned-in-space-in-1967-a-us-satellite-has-started-transmitting-again/ I actually expect some of the older electronics to work really well since it might be simpler and made are larger bulk components, though this is just my guess. I don't know if these actually handle the space environment better than ICs. Of course, testing has probably improved since 01965 so that newer tech might be better. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:01:52 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 06:01:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Teaching kids philosophy improves their math and literacy scores Message-ID: <4395B216-DB23-4260-8E9C-A6247C81F775@gmail.com> https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/public/files/Projects/EEF_Project_Report_PhilosophyForChildren.pdf Go to page 10 for what they mean by teaching philosophy. (Note: It is not memorizing the works of Adler.;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:22:51 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:22:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day Message-ID: Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 14:26:23 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 06:26:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002f01d239cc$15596f20$400c4d60$@att.net> >?] On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... John K Clark ?Relax, Eeyore! Your troubles soon will be over!? commented Tigger in his characteristically optimistic way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 14:30:52 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 06:30:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Teaching kids philosophy improves their math and literacy scores In-Reply-To: <4395B216-DB23-4260-8E9C-A6247C81F775@gmail.com> References: <4395B216-DB23-4260-8E9C-A6247C81F775@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003401d239cc$b5b31610$21194230$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 6:02 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Teaching kids philosophy improves their math and literacy scores https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/public/files/Projects/EEF_Project_Report_PhilosophyForChildren.pdf Go to page 10 for what they mean by teaching philosophy. (Note: It is not memorizing the works of Adler.;) Regards, Dan Thanks Dan! They are doing things like this at my son?s school and I find it encouraging. They have done away with the old 4 point system you and I are so familiar with. They have it where they can just give out all S for satisfactory and let it go at that if they wish, so teachers need not struggle and labor with numbers and records, with the notion being that a teacher should be a guide on the side rather than a sage on the stage. A huge void that idea creates is now the students have no way of pulling rank on each other for brains, no cherished hierarchy of scholastic performance that we geeks cherished for want of anything else at which we could excel. The new system has taken away the singular joy and source of ?status? for nerds. Now we are reduced to contests for who dresses weirdest and for most social awkwardness. Something funny happened yesterday. My son?s fifth grade teacher assigned them to do a self-evaluation, N for needs improvement, S for satisfactory, O for outstanding. It was online with the big screen, so I got to watch my son fill out the form and see his reasoning (narrative justification was required for any non-S and encouraged for every self-evaluation.) This was so interesting to see how he views himself. He went for hardcore humble, giving himself nearly all S and three or four N self-evaluations. I am rechecking the DNA results to verify he is my biological son. Apparently so. The only way I can explain it is that the outstanding brains came from his mother and the astonishing humility from me. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:01:45 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 08:01:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2016 6:23 AM, "John Clark" wrote: > Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... ...the barrel is jammed? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:42:19 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 08:42:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > On Nov 8, 2016 6:23 AM, "John Clark" wrote: > > Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... > > ...the barrel is jammed? > Hammer? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:54:38 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:54:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: ?>> ? >> On Nov 8, 2016 6:23 AM, "John Clark" wrote: >> Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at >> random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The >> hammer falls and .... > > ?> ? > ...the barrel is jammed? > > ?If Hugh Everett's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct then that will certainly happen in some universe; we'll know in about 12 hours if we're lucky enough to be living in it.? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:12:03 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:12:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2016 8:43 AM, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: > On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> On Nov 8, 2016 6:23 AM, "John Clark" wrote: >> > Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... >> >> ...the barrel is jammed? > > Hammer? Nah, I was leading to: "By raspberry jam! Only one nation would dare give doomsayers the raspberry." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 18:26:42 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 13:26:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit but for the love of god vote for fucking Hillary, please. We can deal with corruption. But Trump doing well is a symbol of American bigotry, gullibility, and anti-intellectual sentiment. If anyone on here abstains and Trump wins (or votes for Trump,) please unsubscribe from this list because you are a traitor to intellectuals. Excited to stop hearing about the fucking footsteps lol -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 18:26:24 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:26:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009001d239ed$9d1e0b70$d75a2250$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 8:42 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Adrian Tymes > wrote: On Nov 8, 2016 6:23 AM, "John Clark" > wrote: >>? Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... >...the barrel is jammed? Where is this barrel jammed? Why was somebody so mean as to jam it there? >?Hammer? There are many schools of thought on this. We hear of the firearm definition of the term as a component in the firing mechanism, but it should be noted that when the hammer ?falls? it really is moving mostly sideways, and if anything is moving upward. Furthermore, one of the important lessons if one takes firearm training is that one does not ?pull? the trigger, but rather squeezes it. Otherwise it introduces an upward motion. This can be demonstrated by helping a person firing a pistol for the first time. Make a video for instruction purposes. This works best if it is a six-round pistol. Put only five rounds in it but do not tell the novice shooter. Have her fire at a target. Count the rounds as they are fired and tell her to not stop firing until all rounds are fired. Note what happens on the sixth chamber, which is empty. In most cases, the novice shooter brings the gun upward as if it had fired and there was a kick. Check it out. >?Happy Russian Roulette day? There we go, blaming the Russians, just because they invented the game. But how do we know they invented that game? Good chance someone thought of using the American Samuel Colt?s invention right here in the states long before the commies ever showed up. They might have done it, but we don?t really know, do we? All along it might have been American Roulette, an inside job, or perhaps it was Ukranians that did that game to start with, and the Russians are being blamed unfairly. I demand proof. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 18:35:50 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:35:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day >?I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit but for the love of god vote for fucking Hillary, please? What do we do if we don?t love god? And how do you know what Hilliary does in her bedroom? We don?t. >? We can deal with corruption. But? If we can deal with corruption, why can we not deal with all that other stuff you listed? >?Excited to stop hearing about the fucking footsteps lol How do you know you will stop hearing? I still haven?t quite figured out how one would even make the sound of footsteps while doing that, but I suppose it is possible. Ordinarily one is walking or running at the time, but hey, the notion of making footsteps sounds while doing that creates intriguing mental imagery. Eschew presumption! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:03:48 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 14:03:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> References: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> Message-ID: It's about what Trump represents: anti-intellectualism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 19:35:43 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:35:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: <1979746635.693969.1478633606364@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1979746635.693969.1478633606364@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91461C0B-1C1C-4FF7-9783-4A21F7FFF9E2@gmail.com> > On Tuesday, November 8, 2016 10:26 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > > I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit > but for the love of god vote for fucking Hillary, please. > We can deal with corruption. But Trump doing well is a > symbol of American bigotry, gullibility, and anti-intellectual > sentiment. If anyone on here abstains and Trump wins (or > votes for Trump,) Show Quoted Content > On Tuesday, November 8, 2016 10:26 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > > I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit > but for the love of god vote for fucking Hillary, please. > We can deal with corruption. But Trump doing well is a > symbol of American bigotry, gullibility, and anti-intellectual > sentiment. If anyone on here abstains and Trump wins (or > votes for Trump,) I wasn't aware anyone on this list is an elector -- as in a member of the Elector College. > please unsubscribe from this list because > you are a traitor to intellectuals. I'll do you one better, Will: Why don't you unsubscribe since you don't want to be associated with intellectuals who disagree with your views on voting and culpability for who's elected? Sincerely, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 21:46:49 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 13:46:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> Message-ID: <015101d23a09$9c3c7450$d4b55cf0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2016 11:04 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day >?It's about what Trump represents: anti-intellectualism? I am being told I must choose between anti-intellectualism and corruption, when I find both deplorable (the old definition.) I find the choice a bit false-dichotomy-ey. Given those two, I choose no. But I am not given those two. At least one and perhaps two are on the ballot everywhere, are neither anti-intellectual nor corrupt. Regarding your notion of not hearing it, I came up with an idea. Mount a bed on a flexure like a seismic table, mount a shoe on either end, place a vertical wooden sounding board at either end a couple centimeters from each shoe, go to it. That is the sound of fucking footsteps. If we record the sound, we will not subject you to it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 23:46:04 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:46:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: <015101d23a09$9c3c7450$d4b55cf0$@att.net> References: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> <015101d23a09$9c3c7450$d4b55cf0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 4:46 PM, spike wrote: > I am being told I must choose between anti-intellectualism and corruption, ? No, you're being asked to choose ? ? between ? either ? anti-intellectualism, anti-free market, anti-free press, pro - fascism, ? pro-torture, pro-nuclear proliferation, pro-murdering children for the sins of their parents, ? OR ? a bad email server. ? And most around here think the email server is worse! I don't get it people ? , ? this ?shouldn't be a difficult decision. In 10 years if you look up "false equivalence" in a dictionary it will say "see 2016 election". John K Clark ? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 8 23:58:35 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:58:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: <009a01d239ee$ee1f3cf0$ca5db6d0$@att.net> <015101d23a09$9c3c7450$d4b55cf0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01b201d23a1c$04aabf80$0e003e80$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark ? ? >?OR a bad email server? John K Clark John, it isn?t about a server any more than Watergate was about audio tape. It was the content, not the medium. Pay for play, State Department for sale, profits to the Clinton Foundation. Neither the server nor the tape recorder themselves were bad. History repeats itself, kinda. This time, it is Andrew Jackson vs Richard Nixon. spike ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From csaucier at sovacs.com Tue Nov 8 23:31:36 2016 From: csaucier at sovacs.com (Christian Saucier) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:31:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58226058.3020103@sovacs.com> I try to stay away from debates about political parties or candidates. No point in it (in my opinion). However, I am a strong advocate of non-participation. Even with the (in my view, incorrect) assumption that one's vote matters at all in this religious ritual, given our present circumstances, I would not cherish the idea of lending my support to either Trump-Hitler or Clinton-Stalin. There is a very strong *intellectual* argument to be made in favor of non-participation. I hope this list continues to welcome those of us who chose to abstain. C. Will Steinberg wrote: > I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit but for the love > of god vote for fucking Hillary, please. We can deal with corruption. But > Trump doing well is a symbol of American bigotry, gullibility, and > anti-intellectual sentiment. If anyone on here abstains and Trump wins (or > votes for Trump,) please unsubscribe from this list because you are a > traitor to intellectuals. > > Excited to stop hearing about the fucking footsteps lol > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From interzone at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 00:13:54 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:13:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Happy Russian Roulette Day In-Reply-To: <58226058.3020103@sovacs.com> References: <58226058.3020103@sovacs.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I fully support your right not to participate and welcome your position with open arms. Apparently, not everyone here feels the same way. On Nov 8, 2016 7:05 PM, "Christian Saucier" wrote: > I try to stay away from debates about political parties or candidates. > No point in it (in my opinion). > > However, I am a strong advocate of non-participation. Even with the (in > my view, incorrect) assumption that one's vote matters at all in this > religious ritual, given our present circumstances, I would not cherish > the idea of lending my support to either Trump-Hitler or Clinton-Stalin. > > There is a very strong *intellectual* argument to be made in favor of > non-participation. I hope this list continues to welcome those of us > who chose to abstain. > > C. > > Will Steinberg wrote: > > I've refrained from talking about the election for a bit but for the love > > of god vote for fucking Hillary, please. We can deal with corruption. > But > > Trump doing well is a symbol of American bigotry, gullibility, and > > anti-intellectual sentiment. If anyone on here abstains and Trump wins > (or > > votes for Trump,) please unsubscribe from this list because you are a > > traitor to intellectuals. > > > > Excited to stop hearing about the fucking footsteps lol > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 08:14:25 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 03:14:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side Message-ID: At least now we know which side of The Great Filter we're on. And it gets better, Saudi Arabia may have the H-bomb by next Halloween but we will never have to face the terrifying horrors of Hillary's email server again. And we've had a good run, nothing lasts forever. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From protokol2020 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 10:03:26 2016 From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:03:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Okay, I am happy for Trump, but it was enough of this, John. Now, move to LIGO. Why it doesn't report some new black hole mergers? It's November. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 9:14 AM, John Clark wrote: > At least now we know which side of The Great Filter we're on. And it gets > better, Saudi Arabia may have the H-bomb by next Halloween but we will > never have to face the terrifying horrors of Hillary's email server again. > And we've had a good run, nothing lasts forever. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 10:43:42 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 10:43:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 November 2016 at 08:14, John Clark wrote: > And we've had a good run, nothing lasts forever. > Just as in the UK, the peasants have revolted. As John himself has said, the rich can get richer and the poor can get poorer only until eventually the revolution happens. Corruption contains the seeds of its own downfall. Now other nations will follow the same path. It will be painful, but it is a triumph for democracy. BillK From interzone at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 11:21:28 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 06:21:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The concept, at least in the American vote, that this is peasants revolting misses the larger vote against the establishment. That basket includes a lot more than just the people struggling right now. On Nov 9, 2016 5:44 AM, "BillK" wrote: > On 9 November 2016 at 08:14, John Clark wrote: > > And we've had a good run, nothing lasts forever. > > > > > Just as in the UK, the peasants have revolted. > > As John himself has said, the rich can get richer and the poor can get > poorer only until eventually the revolution happens. Corruption > contains the seeds of its own downfall. > > Now other nations will follow the same path. > > It will be painful, but it is a triumph for democracy. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:17:23 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 09:17:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 5:43 AM, BillK wrote: > ?> ? > It will be painful, ?Yes, as all will discover when Trump and the Republican controlled congress change the libel laws so a sitting president can sue a newspaper or website out of existence if they say something about the commander in chief he doesn't like. > ?> ? > but it is a triumph for democracy. > ?The final figures aren't in yet but it looks like more Americans voted for Clinton than voted for Trump, but only electoral votes matter and under that system somebody can theoretically win with less than 30% of the popular vote. ? ? J?ohn K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 14:34:03 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 06:34:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007d01d23a96$51ca8d20$f55fa760$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 12:14 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side At least now we know which side of The Great Filter we're on. And it gets better, Saudi Arabia may have the H-bomb by next Halloween but we will never have to face the terrifying horrors of Hillary's email server again. And we've had a good run, nothing lasts forever. John K Clark John you were right: we didn?t get a single EC vote, not one, nada, zippo, goose egg for the good guys. Those other two yahoos took all of them. The footsteps are fading in the distance. It?s those voting machines, those things are rigged. We need to get rid of them. As your subject line suggests, I am looking on the bright side. Life goes on. It really does. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 15:15:58 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 07:15:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side Message-ID: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Tomaz Kristan ? Subject: Re: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side >?Now, move to LIGO. Why it doesn't report some new black hole mergers? It's November. I have been on the edge of my seat. I am seeing way less LIGO news than I anticipated. One possibility is the pre-2015 black hold models were more right than they appear and we just got crazy lucky with those two detections. I have work to do, but if we were three sigma lucky back then, we might be waiting for the next event. It could be that 20 solar masses and higher mergers are as rare as discovering new Mersenne primes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at canonizer.com Wed Nov 9 15:57:05 2016 From: brent.allsop at canonizer.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:57:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At least the price of bitcoin is surging. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:17 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 5:43 AM, BillK wrote: > >> > ?> ? >> It will be painful, > > > ?Yes, as all will discover when Trump and the Republican controlled > congress change the libel laws so a sitting president can sue a newspaper > or website out of existence if they say something about the commander in > chief he doesn't like. > > >> ?> ? >> but it is a triumph for democracy. >> > > ?The final figures aren't in yet but it looks like more Americans voted > for Clinton than voted for Trump, but only electoral votes matter and under > that system somebody can theoretically win with less than 30% of the > popular vote. ? > > ? > > J?ohn K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 16:31:49 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 11:31:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:15 AM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > I have been on the edge of my seat. I am seeing way less LIGO news than I > anticipated. One possibility is the pre-2015 black hold models were more > right than they appear and we just got crazy lucky with those two > detections. > ?The upgrade isn't finished and LIGO still isn't online, it was supposed to happen in September but remember ? Hofstadter's ?L? aw ?, it always takes longer than you think even when you take Hofstadter's ?Law into account. ?John K Clark? PS: thanks, for a few seconds I was thinking of something besides the catastrophe. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 16:47:17 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 08:47:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark >?it was supposed to happen in September but remember ? Hofstadter's L?aw, it always takes longer than you think even when you take Hofstadter's ?Law into account. ?John K Clark? PS: thanks, for a few seconds I was thinking of something besides the catastrophe. Me too! Thanks to you John. We took a pounding, 538 to zip, but as you posted, there is a bright side and it is bright indeed. Having you post under the title look on the bright side is a good thing. I am an inherently optimistic sort, like Tigger only without the springy tail (always wanted one of those, but evolution didn?t go there) so we kinda expect that from me. Having you look on the bright side is a good thing. Even after this 538 to nada, LIGO is still coming. To help us look on the bright side, consider: what if? What if? the LIGO upgrade had gone better and they had turned the thing on about Monday and had seen about a dozen signals that day. Imagine how that would have been: we would go around looking dazed, bewildered, puzzled. Someone would make some kind of comment about an election, we would have no idea who won or what the heck had gone on because we would be looking over our equations and realizing everything we thought we knew was wrong. That would be cool in itself I suppose, because then we would be trying to figure out how some other phenomenon could make gravity waves, or what the heck could have happened, sort of like an order of magnitude greater reaction than I had when that first signal was announced right after they turned on the devices. I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be serious flawed. COOL! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 19:51:27 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 13:51:27 -0600 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> Message-ID: I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be serious flawed. COOL! spike This expresses my feeling exactly. I think somewhere along the line I lost contact with the human race and am seriously out of contact with reality. I am still stunned. But as you say, life will go on and it probably won't be as bad as the worst and not as good as the best, which is mostly how it goes all the time. This too will pass. bill w On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:47 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *John Clark > > > > > > >?it was supposed to happen in September but remember ? > > Hofstadter's L?aw, it always takes longer than you think even when you > take Hofstadter's ?Law into account. > > > > ?John K Clark? > > > > PS: thanks, for a few seconds I was thinking of something besides the > catastrophe. > > > > > > > > Me too! Thanks to you John. We took a pounding, 538 to zip, but as you > posted, there is a bright side and it is bright indeed. Having you post > under the title look on the bright side is a good thing. I am an > inherently optimistic sort, like Tigger only without the springy tail > (always wanted one of those, but evolution didn?t go there) so we kinda > expect that from me. Having you look on the bright side is a good thing. > Even after this 538 to nada, LIGO is still coming. > > > > To help us look on the bright side, consider: what if? > > > > What if? the LIGO upgrade had gone better and they had turned the thing on > about Monday and had seen about a dozen signals that day. Imagine how that > would have been: we would go around looking dazed, bewildered, puzzled. > Someone would make some kind of comment about an election, we would have no > idea who won or what the heck had gone on because we would be looking over > our equations and realizing everything we thought we knew was wrong. > > > > That would be cool in itself I suppose, because then we would be trying to > figure out how some other phenomenon could make gravity waves, or what the > heck could have happened, sort of like an order of magnitude greater > reaction than I had when that first signal was announced right after they > turned on the devices. > > > > I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two > crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be > serious flawed. COOL! > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 20:13:46 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:13:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> Message-ID: <006601d23ac5$c703a980$550afc80$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2016 11:51 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side >>?I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be serious flawed. COOL! spike >?This expresses my feeling exactly. I think somewhere along the line I lost contact with the human race and am seriously out of contact with reality. I am still stunned. But as you say, life will go on and it probably won't be as bad as the worst and not as good as the best, which is mostly how it goes all the time. This too will pass. bill w Pass? Pretty soon we will get more data, and find out what is the probability of what we saw. It must be extraordinarily low. Or I am still missing something fundamental. After I reread what I wrote initially, it occurred to me some might have interpreted it to refer to political events, but what I had in mind were the two LIGO events, the one detected in September 2015 and the other in Christmas gift in December 2015. Regarding that other business, I went to bed last night not knowing who won that election but knowing my team was skunked. The prophets were right however: I looked out my window this morning, there was a big bright yellow thing out there: a nuclear explosion. My favorite reactor showed up right on time; the sun rose this morning. I expect it will tomorrow as well. All this has me thinking however: if black hole mergers can make this signal, then neutron binaries can too, or something that looks a lot like it. Then we would have instant formation of an event horizon, so the endgame should differ slightly from a black hole binaries or neutron-black hole mergers. This is making me crazy: I can?t figure out how two black holes could have formed that close to each other to start with. I can see how two neutron stars could, but if so, those should have been smaller than those seen in both mergers. Crazy, just crazy. Oh what a fun time to be living. I urge everyone to get off your butts and exercise every day, watch what you eat, sleep in your own bed every night, wear a seatbelt or a helmet, try to live as long as you can because it can only get better once we figure out how we got two events in a space of time we thought less than a tenth of a percent chance we would get any detections. Soon, we will know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 20:25:21 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:25:21 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robo-cop Message-ID: <007301d23ac7$65e6e7a0$31b4b6e0$@att.net> I was over on the MicroSloth campus in Mountain View yesterday for an astronomy lecture. This robot security guard rolled by. It is about 150 cm tall, makes robot-like noises, takes pictures. If any bad guy messed with cars out there, MS could figure out whodunit. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 20174 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 21:06:59 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:06:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Why Hillary lost - the Guardian Message-ID: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/donald-trump-white-house-hillary-clinton-liberals -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cryptaxe at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:50:10 2016 From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:50:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robo-cop In-Reply-To: <007301d23ac7$65e6e7a0$31b4b6e0$@att.net> References: <007301d23ac7$65e6e7a0$31b4b6e0$@att.net> Message-ID: Does it have an exterminate function? That thing looks really cool. Did you have a chance to see how well it navigated around people? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 9 21:28:13 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 13:28:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] robo-cop In-Reply-To: References: <007301d23ac7$65e6e7a0$31b4b6e0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00dc01d23ad0$2d7ef7f0$887ce7d0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of CryptAxe Subject: Re: [ExI] robo-cop >?Does it have an exterminate function? Nothing cool like the robot from Lost in Space or anything. Those electric arc hands, now wouldn?t that have been wicked cool to have back when we were kids? Some jerk giving you troubles, pull out those babies and show his ass what Danger Will Robinson really means: >?That thing looks really cool. Did you have a chance to see how well it navigated around people? No, I was in a hurry, running late for the lecture; it was one I wanted to hear: Martian clay. How the heck did clay ever form on Mars? It suggests a warm and wet past. If it had a warm and wet past, good chance life once lived there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 10695 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 21:50:56 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:50:56 +0000 Subject: [ExI] robo-cop In-Reply-To: References: <007301d23ac7$65e6e7a0$31b4b6e0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 9 November 2016 at 20:50, CryptAxe wrote: > Does it have an exterminate function? > > That thing looks really cool. Did you have a chance to see how well it > navigated around people? > Quote: Utilizing numerous sensors, lasers and a significant amount of code, the K3 and K5 can roam a geo-fenced area autonomously (meaning not remote-controlled) on their own randomly or based on a particular patrolling algorithm. They can successfully navigate around people and objects in a dynamic indoor or outdoor environment. The K5 is even able to detect a vehicle backing up or tailing the machine in a parking lot setting. ----------------- BillK From csaucier at sovacs.com Thu Nov 10 00:53:18 2016 From: csaucier at sovacs.com (Christian Saucier) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 19:53:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why Hillary lost - the Guardian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8359554B-59AE-4455-B7A1-915BD3F7C642@sovacs.com> Similar opinion from medium.com : https://medium.com/@trentlapinski/dear-democrats-read-this-if-you-do-not-understand-why-trump-won-5a0cdb13c597#.wyoo79m9x On November 9, 2016 4:06:59 PM EST, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/donald-trump-white-house-hillary-clinton-liberals > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 02:38:08 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 18:38:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Trump victory as blowback for PC? Message-ID: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr I have to say this is what many millennial Trump supporters told me. They seemed to also be into Milo for the same reason. They were overall willing to ignore what might be called substantive differences too. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 02:44:25 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:44:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:47 AM, spike wrote: > ?>> ? >> PS: thanks, for a few seconds I was thinking of something besides the >> catastrophe. > > > ?> ? > Me too! Thanks to you John. We took a pounding, 538 to zip, but as you > posted, there is a bright side and it is bright indeed. Having you post > under the title look on the bright side is a good thing. I am an > inherently optimistic sort, > ?I know ? you are Spike? , and your optimism and intelligence ?? is why I enjoy discussing things with you. That and your politeness which I must admit has been greater than my own on occasion, but at this point angry words serve no purpose, all I can do now is hope I was wrong about him and he just turn ?s? out to be a very bad presadent and not an? extinction level event. ?S? o I will say no more about Trump. Concerning LIGO there has been no new experimental data but there has been further analysis of the old data and Einstein wins again. Many physicists don't like the idea that the spacetime curvature at the center of a Black Hole is infinite so in 2001 ? ? Mazur and Mottola ? ? hypothesized a object as an alternative to Black Holes called a Gravastar ?.? https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0109035 The idea was that from the outside things in ?an? intense gravitational field appear to slow down and get cooler, so they thought if atoms in the collapsing star got cold enough they'd form a Bose?Einstein condensate and stop things from collapsing ?all the way down to a geometric point. The spacetime curvature at the center of a Gravastar would be enormous but not infinite as it is in a Black Hole. From the outside it would be almost impossible to tell the difference between a ? ? Gravastar ? ? and a Black Hole. Almost. Chirenti and Rezzolla ? ? computer modeled what the "ringdown" of a Black Hole and a Gravastar ? ? would sound like and it turns out they're slightly different. http://journals.aps.org/prd/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevD.94.084016 It's well known ? that a Black Hole can be completely described by just 3 numbers, mass, spin, and electrical charge, but actually that's only true of a Black Hole that has reached a steady state. When it's first formed the Event Horizon can be non-spherical and have lumps and bumps in it ?,? ?but? then the Black Hole will vibrate like a bell giving off intense gravitational waves and becoming smooth and spherical and reach a steady state in just a few seconds. This is the ringdown. Chirenti and Rezzolla ? ? analyzed the ringdown from LIGO's first detection and found it to be entirely consistent with a Einstein Black Hole but inconsistent with a Mazur and Mottola ? ? Gravastar. Never before has General Relativity been tested within a gravitational field that strong and Albert wins again. I wonder if this could ?be ? the first evidence that physical and not just mathematical infinity exists. Maybe spacetime really is infinitely curved in places. It's remarkable a ? ? patent clerk ? ? a century ago could tell us how ?merging ? Black Holes ?behave ? using nothing but ?pen and paper? . Einstein was just a natural born winner, and unlike Trump Einstein won so often he didn't even need to brag about it, I wish Einstein had been on the ballot instead of that idiot Trump because..... Sorry sorry, I almost made it. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Thu Nov 10 00:38:19 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:38:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Model uncertainty (Was: LIGO) In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> Message-ID: <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> On 2016-11-09 19:51, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen > two crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos > must be serious flawed. COOL! > > This expresses my feeling exactly. I think somewhere along the line I > lost contact with the human race and am seriously out of contact with > reality. I am still stunned. > In fact, this is an interesting development. Pollsters and information markets missed the UK election, Brexit and the US election. The models are clearly wrong. Even if one accepted that the 15% chance of Trump on Monday evening was true and we saw a 15% probability event, the swathe of other recent polling failures demonstrate that something important has changed. Generally, I think there is both an epistemic uncertainty about how to poll current people properly, and a more meaty uncertainty about what is going on politically. I have recently shifted away from my previous model that people had a broken epistemology because of networked media to a model that what we are seeing is more a tribal defense of core values (Haidt's explanation: http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/10/when-and-why-nationalism-beats-globalism/ ). Now, realizing that one's model is not correct and trying to fix it is an uneasy but exciting place. Especially since it might mean one should change strategy about a lot of things. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 03:21:35 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:21:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> Message-ID: <001b01d23b01$8b6c6ab0$a2454010$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:47 AM, spike > wrote: ?>> ?? I am an inherently optimistic sort, ?>?I know you are Spike?, and your optimism and intelligence is why I enjoy discussing things with you? John you are too kind, sir. >? but at this point angry words serve no purpose? They do serve a purpose! We have a job to do, a big one, an important one. Let us not take our eye off the ball. The football that is. We have a golden window of opportunity to get that ball to a safer location. >? all I can do now is hope I was wrong about him? You weren?t wrong John, there is danger. We should work toward getting those nukes safe. Either way this misadventure had turned out, we would be facing that same problem, and even if not now, later. Even if this one turns out OK, there will be future crazy power grabbers running for POTUS. We have developed technologies that obviate the whole notion of instant response. In the early days of nukes, each missile carried only one warhead, and there just weren?t that many of them. A surprise first attack was a real risk. Now there are many rockets, and they are carried on submarines, some may be on trains, perhaps disguised as something else, some may be on trucks perhaps disguised as something else. We have early warning satellites and perhaps other early warning technologies that did not exist when the government established the precedent of having that trigger in the possession of the executive branch. It should not be there. The reasons it was put there to start with no longer exist. So let?s get it back. >?Concerning LIGO there has been no new experimental data but there has been further analysis of the old data and Einstein wins again? Since this is a different topic, I want to take it up in a subsequent post. In this one, we need to grab the short opportunity that the current government is in power before it changes hands. We need to somehow undo the precedent started in 1950 in North Korea, escalated in the 1960s in Vietnam, that the POTUS has the authority to commit acts of war. It wasn?t that way in the 1940s, which is why the US was late joining that fight. Roosevelt wanted to go, congress said no. Subsequent POTUSes (POTI?) just sent them. This appears illegal to me. So how do we do it? We have the means, we damn sure have the motive. Now what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 03:35:40 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:35:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Model uncertainty (Was: LIGO) In-Reply-To: <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> Message-ID: As I have explained a number of times in the past on this list, people who have a bleak view of the future will go for an irrational leader, one who will lead them into war. From the genes long experience in the stone age, this always worked to correct the problem, which was too many people for the environment. Wars come in various flavors, internal and external to the group, and sometimes both. You have to wonder which group will be exterminated? It was the Jews in Germany, but don't forget that the intellectuals, anyone with a degree, or wore glasses were the ones who the Cambodians exterminated under Pol Pot. If Trump really wants the Mexicans to build a wall, it will probably be to keep the miserable poor gringos out of Mexico. Best wishes, Keith On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Anders wrote: > On 2016-11-09 19:51, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two > crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be > serious flawed. COOL! > > This expresses my feeling exactly. I think somewhere along the line I lost > contact with the human race and am seriously out of contact with reality. I > am still stunned. > > > In fact, this is an interesting development. Pollsters and information > markets missed the UK election, Brexit and the US election. The models are > clearly wrong. Even if one accepted that the 15% chance of Trump on Monday > evening was true and we saw a 15% probability event, the swathe of other > recent polling failures demonstrate that something important has changed. > > Generally, I think there is both an epistemic uncertainty about how to poll > current people properly, and a more meaty uncertainty about what is going on > politically. I have recently shifted away from my previous model that people > had a broken epistemology because of networked media to a model that what we > are seeing is more a tribal defense of core values (Haidt's explanation: > http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/10/when-and-why-nationalism-beats-globalism/ > ). > > Now, realizing that one's model is not correct and trying to fix it is an > uneasy but exciting place. Especially since it might mean one should change > strategy about a lot of things. > > -- > Dr Anders Sandberg > Future of Humanity Institute > Oxford Martin School > Oxford University > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 03:40:18 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:40:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Model uncertainty (Was: LIGO) In-Reply-To: <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> Message-ID: <003301d23b04$28582920$79087b60$@att.net> >.On Behalf Of Anders Subject: [ExI] Model uncertainty (Was: LIGO) On 2016-11-09 19:51, William Flynn Wallace wrote: I am still trying to get my head around that: how could we have seen two crazy-unlikely events in just a few weeks? My view of the cosmos must be serious flawed. COOL! This expresses my feeling exactly. I think somewhere along the line I lost contact with the human race and am seriously out of contact with reality. I am still stunned. >.In fact, this is an interesting development. Pollsters and information markets missed the UK election, Brexit and the US election. The models are clearly wrong. Dr Anders Sandberg Anders I can explain this I think. This crazy election cycle was the first time in my life it really felt dangerous to express one's political views. We saw people attacked for wearing Trump hats and T-shirts. Right here in San Jose, there was a Trump rally which was attacked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCx3ov55tUw The attack on the rally was a direct attack on free speech. It became dangerous to be anything other than a Trump adversary. With that in mind, what do you do if someone calls wanting to do a political poll? You have no idea who is on the other end (they have their number blocked) but they know who you are, since they just called you. With a phone number, they can get an address. With an address, they can come for a visit. If they come for a visit, you might die. Nowthen, shall we continue our poll? I made it clear enough online that I was a Johnson supporter, but I wouldn't tell any anonymous pollster that. I wouldn't tell them anything. I told them right up front why I wouldn't tell them anything. I don't know how that was recorded in their polls. I hope we return to a time when it is safe to have political views. In the meantime, the polls are unreliable. That being said, I am astonished I haven't heard anyone suggest the commies hacked the voting machines. So I will be the first to suggest it. Those damn things just hafta go. What if this election had been a cliffhanger and we learned then that the machines had been hacked? How would we do a recount? And once we learned the paperless machine votes cannot be recounted (so they can't be counted at all) and only the paper votes count, then how do we argue the election was legitimate? What if we did a recount using only paper votes and it reversed the result? Oh that could be trouble. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 03:58:54 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 04:58:54 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Trump victory as blowback for PC? In-Reply-To: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> References: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good article, and I agree with this interpretation. The points made in the Reason article are certainly not the only cause of Trump's victory, but a contributing cause. Note: "your failure to acknowledge this miscalculation and adjust your approach has delivered the country to Trump." On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:38 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr > > I have to say this is what many millennial Trump supporters told me. They > seemed to also be into Milo for the same reason. They were overall willing > to ignore what might be called substantive differences too. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From giulio at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:03:58 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 05:03:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Trump victory as blowback for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Scott Aaronson: "I stand by my criticism of some of the excesses of the social justice movement, which seem to me to have played some role in spawning the predictable backlash whose horrific results the world now sees." http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2957 On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Good article, and I agree with this interpretation. The points made in > the Reason article are certainly not the only cause of Trump's > victory, but a contributing cause. Note: "your failure to acknowledge > this miscalculation and adjust your approach has delivered the country > to Trump." > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:38 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because-leftist-political-corr >> >> I have to say this is what many millennial Trump supporters told me. They >> seemed to also be into Milo for the same reason. They were overall willing >> to ignore what might be called substantive differences too. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books via: >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:42:24 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 23:42:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Model uncertainty (Was: LIGO) In-Reply-To: <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <17870214-5a01-060b-cf10-22e2f0c4b75c@aleph.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:38 PM, Anders wrote: > a model that what we are seeing is more a tribal defense of core values > ### Indeed, the core values of our tribe, that is non-initiation of violence, mutually respectful individualism, prudence, low time preference and individual assessment of merit, are under an unprecedented attack by large numbers of persons with at times diametrically opposed values and ways of living. Stenner is on to something: There is an inborn proclivity among many of us to react cooperatively in defense against normative threat but she may be missing the point when she implies this defense is "authoritarian". A libertarian authoritarian is a contradictio in adiecto, and yet I am highly intolerant of attacks on my normative order, more than that - I see my intolerance as a badge of merit, not a reason to be ashamed. I am not a Trump supporter but I did wear in public a Trump T-shirt, a Lock Her Up T-shirt, and Anyone but Hillary T-shirt in the run-up to the election (in which I conscientiously abstained from participating), just because I see the smug corruption of many of our political elites and their clients as a normative threat. Some core values are just worth defending. Luckily I didn't get beat up. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 04:53:22 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:53:22 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Trump victory as blowback for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's worth quoting the first paragraph: "I?m ashamed of my country and terrified about the future. When Bush took power in 2000, I was depressed for weeks, but I didn?t feel like I do now, like a fourth-generation refugee in the United States?like someone who happens to have been born here and will presumably continue to live here, unless and until it starts to become unsafe for academics, or Jews, or people who publicly criticize Trump, at which time I guess we?ll pack up and go somewhere else (assuming there still is a somewhere else). On 10 November 2016 at 15:03, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Scott Aaronson: "I stand by my criticism of some of the excesses of > the social justice movement, which seem to me to have played some role > in spawning the predictable backlash whose horrific results the world > now sees." > http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2957 > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:58 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > Good article, and I agree with this interpretation. The points made in > > the Reason article are certainly not the only cause of Trump's > > victory, but a contributing cause. Note: "your failure to acknowledge > > this miscalculation and adjust your approach has delivered the country > > to Trump." > > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 3:38 AM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> http://reason.com/blog/2016/11/09/trump-won-because- > leftist-political-corr > >> > >> I have to say this is what many millennial Trump supporters told me. > They > >> seemed to also be into Milo for the same reason. They were overall > willing > >> to ignore what might be called substantive differences too. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Dan > >> Sample my Kindle books via: > >> http://author.to/DanUst > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 05:22:40 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:22:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <001b01d23b01$8b6c6ab0$a2454010$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <001b01d23b01$8b6c6ab0$a2454010$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:21 PM, spike wrote: > snip > You weren?t wrong John, there is danger. We should work toward getting > those nukes safe. I don't think you grok the EP (genetic) forces behind this turn of events. It is the (stone age) function of war to chop the population back. I can imagine nothing more effective than lots of nukes. It would be like asking a stone age tribe to give up clubs when they are working themselves up to kill the neighbors. I have been trying to solve carbon and energy, major drivers to a big war, and ran into what may be a showstopper problem. It's economically very hard to lift enough shielding to block the cosmic ray particles for the construction workers in space. The requirement is to get the radiation levels for the workers down to the current standards. At least *this* problem would be solved if the whole world was rather radioactive. Keith PS If you want to blame someone, it's our remote ancestors who got so organized that the big cats could no longer control their numbers. From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 18:39:28 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:39:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it Message-ID: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> I thought of a modest proposal today, as an afterthought of sorts to our traumatic election season in the USA. You already know my quadrennial rant about the voting process, so I will spare you that, and get to the point. I suggested yesterday that perhaps the commies rigged the voting machines. I am astonished that no one in the defeated party has suggested it. Why? Vladimir had the means and damn sure had the motive. Had it come out the other way, would not the other party have been squawking? Ja. Of course, they told us in advance they were going to protest if they lost. OK, so... We have all these states claiming this count and that count, and yet still... most of them have paperless machine voting somewhere in that state. Sunshine is the best disinfectant. Ok then, my modest proposal to all fifty states: we see what you told us, now prove it. Publish the total vote as counted, publish the paperless machine-only count, right up front. Then, take every one of those paper ballots and put them out where we can all see them using some kind of digital imaging or number them and photograph them, post the digital images. Then let us count, compare the reported count to what we see. Ja? The party currently in the WH has nothing to lose, ja? And the other party has nothing to hide, ja? And yet... our collective trust in government is at an all time low. So, let us restore some of that trust, by demonstrating that the recount agrees with what has already been published, shall we? Oh and while we are there, do let us compare the outcome of the mail-in ballots with the in-person paper ballots with the machine ballots, shall we? Defeated party, have you anything to lose? Victorious party, have you anything to hide? No and no, we thought not. So prove it. Let us recount, in plain sight please. spike From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 18:49:35 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:49:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2016 10:40 AM, "spike" wrote: > Publish the total vote as counted, publish the paperless machine-only count, right up front. Then, take every one of those paper ballots and put them out where we can all see them using some kind of digital imaging or number them and photograph them, post the digital images. Then let us count, compare the reported count to what we see. Ja? Secret ballots. Further, some states don't have any paper ballot in the first place - all-electronic, no ability to prove they weren't hacked. Many of these have had problems with corruption on a mainly state and local basis for decades; rigging their presidential results is, relative to their existing problems, a side show for them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 18:59:19 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:59:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:50 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it On Nov 10, 2016 10:40 AM, "spike" > wrote: >>? Publish the total vote as counted, publish the paperless machine-only count, right up front. Then, take every one of those paper ballots and put them out where we can all see them using some kind of digital imaging or number them and photograph them, post the digital images. Then let us count, compare the reported count to what we see. Ja? >?Secret ballots. Further, some states don't have any paper ballot in the first place - all-electronic, no ability to prove they weren't hacked. Many of these have had problems with corruption on a mainly state and local basis for decades; rigging their presidential results is, relative to their existing problems, a side show for them? Adrian Adrian thanks, and please sir, am I the only one who sees how damn dangerous this is? What if it had come out the other way? Or what if we do a recount, but only count those votes which have some kind of physical proof. Cannot we reverse the result? Why not? Let us try it, shall we? What have we to lose? I will tell you what we have to gain: credibility of a process that looks shady to me. So how do we do it? Who is objecting? Why? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:34:56 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:34:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 10, 2016 11:15 AM, "spike" wrote: > Adrian thanks, and please sir, am I the only one who sees how damn dangerous this is? Nope. Lots of people do. Those in power have been trying to hold on to their ability to tweak things nonetheless. If there is a silver lining, Trump pitched himself as anti-corruption, so such things should be odious to him. We will see if he bothers to act (rather than just implementing more corruption), though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:51:11 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 14:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > If there is a silver lining, Trump pitched himself as anti-corruption, so > such things should be odious to him. We will see if he bothers to act > (rather than just implementing more corruption), though. It's conceivable. I don't have high hopes that Trump will start behaving like an adult but it could happen. He could also consider campaign promises water under the bridge and just do whatever the hell he wants. We'll have to see how it plays out. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 20:37:05 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:37:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:39 PM, spike wrote: > ?>? > I suggested yesterday that perhaps the commies rigged the voting > machines. I am astonished that no one in the defeated party has suggested > it. Why? Vladimir had the means and damn sure had the motive. ?Vladimir certainly has the motive, I'm sure he's delighted with the election outcome, but I don't think he has the means. Most modern voting machines have ? ?a paper backup, mine did; the real old 1960s ones don't but they're not connected to the internet?, in fact they're so old they're not even electronic but mechanical, the main danger from them is not malicious hacking but malfunction arising from the difficulty in finding good spare parts. > ?> ? > Had it come out the other way, would not the other party have been > squawking? Ja. ?Yes it's odd isn't it. Before the election Trump kept talking about a rigged election, but he hasn't said much about that lately for some reason. I don't think anyone was more surprised by the outcome of the election than Donald Trump, I saw him on TV today, I thought he looked a bit dazed. He would never admit it but I bet at this moment he feels like he's gotten in over his head. ?> ? > The party currently in the WH has nothing to lose, ja? ?The Democrats know the election wasn't rigged ? and that half (well nearly half) of the population is just deplorable; making a stink about it now would serve no purpose and things are screwed up enough as it is. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 20:38:27 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:38:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <008201d23b92$646ee960$2d4cbc20$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:35 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it On Nov 10, 2016 11:15 AM, "spike" > wrote: >>? Adrian thanks, and please sir, am I the only one who sees how damn dangerous this is? >?Nope. Lots of people do. Those in power have been trying to hold on to their ability to tweak things nonetheless. >?If there is a silver lining, Trump pitched himself as anti-corruption, so such things should be odious to him. We will see if he bothers to act (rather than just implementing more corruption), though? EXACTLY! This is a golden opportunity to fix a dangerously flawed and perhaps corrupt process. A cheerful thought occurred to me, something that really gives me hope. Read on please. John Clark and I agree on some things. General relativity, and the solution to many closed-form differential equations for instance. But there are some political things on which we are in perfect agreement as well: nuclear war is bad. A single person with the ability and the apparent intentions of using nuclear weaponry is a bad thing. He and I are in one accord on that. (Side note to John: during the most furious peak of debate, I don?t recall seeing a single comment by you that I would interpret as a personal insult. I thank you for that.) A few weeks ago when we were debating the process for launching nukes, I did some research online and found something interesting: there is widespread disagreement on that topic. Furthermore, the actual process would need to be classified up the kazoo for perfectly understandable reasons: if it became well-known, the bad guy could attack any link in the launch chain of command. So anyone who posted on that question doesn?t really know and anyone who really knows doesn?t post. So we don?t know either. But now we know we don?t know. During the last couple years of Reagan?s second term, it became obvious to everyone in contact that he had Alzheimer?s. AD patients are not debilitated right away, but their memory becomes unreliable. The codes for launching nuclear attacks would need to be complex (we hope) so some crazy couldn?t just steal the football and try combinations until she started WW3. A complex launch code is a perfect example of something an AD patient might not recall if she was having a bad day. (?Oh it was such a bad day, I tried to start WW3 and just couldn?t remember all those silly numbers?) There was a second risk, the opposite of being unable to respond to a nuclear attack. God talked to Reagan (it?s in his own book.) We don?t know what god was telling him, but I don?t like it. She might tell him to launch a surprise attack, since god and the commies don?t like each other. OK then, military top brass are guys who think of all possible risks and take steps to plan a response. We see the occasional catastrophic failure, such as Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, but the process works. The military brass would have noticed Reagan was having problems, brought it up among themselves, perhaps discussed it with trusted members of congress. The military designed the system to start with, so the military could quietly modify it, such that the order to launch would simultaneously go to the Secretary of Defense, the Senate majority leader, the Speaker of the House, the head of the congressional defense committee and the Secretary of State, rather than some 35 yr old submarine commander. They could collectively evaluate the command and send it forth if there is justification. The military brass wouldn?t need a change in law to quietly insert a failsafe circuit breaker, in case god told Reagan to nuke the commies. They wouldn?t even need to have the president in on it really. There is no reason the president cannot go on thinking he or she could launch nukes on a whim, even if he or she doesn?t actually do that, but rather orders five top leaders to launch one. The rest of congress need not be in on it, should that system already exist. The voters need not know the details (it?s better if we don?t perhaps (we are already crazy enough as it is.)) So? back in the 80s, we had subs, so there was no risk of a sneak attack taking out counterstrike capability. We had early-warning systems, even if not like we have now. We had an impaired POTUS. We have no legal requirement for the POTUS to be able to launch without oversight. Conclusion: POTUS cannot nuke on a whim. Another comforting thought: even if the military didn?t failsafe that system in 1986, good chance they will now. If they do (or did) they aren?t going to tell us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 10 21:01:10 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:01:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00b801d23b95$907be410$b173ac30$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 12:37 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:39 PM, spike > wrote: ?>?>? Vladimir had the means and damn sure had the motive. ?>?Vladimir certainly has the motive, I'm sure he's delighted with the election outcome, but I don't think he has the means? OK good. This is a perfect chance to increase our confidence in the system. Let?s prove it. ?> ?>?Had it come out the other way, would not the other party have been squawking? Ja. ?>?Yes it's odd isn't it. Before the election Trump kept talking about a rigged election, but he hasn't said much about that lately for some reason? He told us he would accept the result, if he won. He did. But I don?t. >? I don't think anyone was more surprised by the outcome of the election than Donald Trump, I saw him on TV today, I thought he looked a bit dazed. He would never admit it but I bet at this moment he feels like he's gotten in over his head? Anyone elected to that job is over his head. We have tacked on a bunch of duties to that office which never should have been there to start with. I agree however, to some extent. I think he started the whole process as a stunt or something to draw attention, but he was the recipient of votes from cross-dressing other-party members, who were advised a long time ago the party already had its candidate, so register as the other party and vote in the primaries for the most odious of the bunch. He was that guy. He won. That cross-dressing strategy is risky. If anyone here is a primary cross-dresser, I do advise voting for someone we can accept, rather than someone your party can beat. Your chosen one might not beat the worst guy in the other party. ?> ?>?The party currently in the WH has nothing to lose, ja? ?>?The Democrats know the election wasn't rigged? But I don?t. Let?s prove it. ? >?and that half (well nearly half) of the population is just deplorable? I disagree. The yanks I know are plorable sorts. >?making a stink about it now would serve no purpose? It isn?t a stink, it?s a pleasant aroma: trust but verify. It would increase confidence in the process and decrease risk of what might have happened had it gone the other way. It will decrease the risk next time, which might be as contentious as this time, if not more so. >? and things are screwed up enough as it is? John K Clark ? This would be the first step to unscrewing things, and would be a perfectly logical step. In court, evidence is weighed. Hearsay evidence is feather light. States are telling us who they say won but not showing us the receipts. Our trust in government is at rock bottom and still digging. So? trust but verify, let?s see it, let?s prove it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 11 03:31:20 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:31:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it Message-ID: <010101d23bcc$128021c0$37806540$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] Subject: ok, so prove it >? as an afterthought of sorts to our traumatic election season in the USA? spike I do humbly ask my fellow Extropians? forgiveness for obsessing about this please. This is the way the EC map ended up: But if only 1 percent of the votes had switched from Trump to Clinton, it would have been this: Source: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-a-difference-2-percentage-points-makes/?ex_cid=2016-forecast Think about it: if only 1 percent of the Trump votes had actually been Clinton votes and the commies somehow rigged just a few of the machines to make it happen somehow, everything changes. Just 1 percent switched, 1 in 100. If the machines just switched 1 percent, it swings the whole show, bigtime. I can?t help obsessing over this, even though my own guy was trounced 538 to zip. America should demand a recount rather than the silly useless protests. Demand a recount, with everything out on the table, everything, every machine result, cataloged by individual machine, every district paper ballot count, every mail-in by district. We would be able to see it if one machine here and there returned a funny-looking result. It would be a statistician?s playground. Just 1 percent made all that difference. It isn?t too late. OK, so prove it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 36433 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 36038 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 04:01:05 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:01:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <006601d23ac5$c703a980$550afc80$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <006601d23ac5$c703a980$550afc80$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > if black hole mergers can make this signal, then neutron binaries can too, > > ?It's thought that neutron star collisions are much more common than Black Hole mergers, it probably happens ?in a galaxy like ours about once every 10,000 years, they're the principle source of the elements heavier than iron and the cause of short gamma ray bursts. However LIGO will see far fewer neutron stars than Black Holes because the gravitational waves they produce are much weaker. A neutron star collision would have to be closer than 300 million light years, but LIGO easily detected a Black Hole merger from 1.3 billion light years. ?They say now that LIGO's next run will start in "the fall" and will continue for about 6 months then shut down again for it's next upgrade. When it reaches its final upgrade in 2020? it's expected to see about a thousand Black Hole mergers a year and maybe 3 or 4 neutron star collisions. After that there is the LISA space based detector, it could hear every Black Hole merger that happened in the observable universe, and I think that would be much more interesting that the International Space Station. ?> ? > I can?t figure out how two black holes could have formed that close to > each other to start with. > > ?Yes it is odd, most stars are binary but LIGO detected 30 solar mass Black Holes, and big stars lose over half their mass to solar wind before they get to the end of their life, so when they were young there must have been two 60 or 70 solar mass stars in orbit around each other. Today stars that big are very rare, there are probably only a half dozen or so stars that massive in our entire galaxy. However things were different long ago. ?Modern stars have only a trace amount of elements other than Hydrogen and Helium in them ?but the first generation of stars had none at all ?. ? ?A nd that trace amount ?of heavier elements ? makes a big difference. ? ?Huge stars are less likely to form now than then ?,? and even when they are those trace elements cause them to lose a great deal of their mass due to solar wind in the course of their evolution. ?T? he trace elements act like dye making the gas more opaque to light, so ?now? when a cloud of gas starts to collapse a small star is formed but then the light from it interacts strongly with the opaque gas and that pushes ?the gas? away and prevents the star from getting any larger. But ?13.5 billion years ago there were no trace elements in such a gas cloud so it was ? ? largely transparent, ?so? the star could keep on getting bigger. And today ? ? the bright hot surface of the star that we see is very near the physical surface ? ? of the star so gas from it ? ? can ? ? easily diffuse ? ? into space ? as solar wind? ; ? ? but in ?ancient? stars ? ? the gas ?was? more transparent so ? ? that bright surface is buried much more deeply in the star ?and? the gas is retained and can not escape. ?Or maybe they were formed even before the first stars, before any element formed, ?before even a proton could form when everything was a mega-hot mega-dense quark gluon plasma. Computer simulations say if they exist primordial Black Holes should have more elliptical orbits than stellar Black Holes, so once we have more mergers for statistical analysis (a thousand a year should do the trick) we might be able to recognize that there are indeed 2 clear cut populations of orbiting Black Holes. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 04:39:16 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:39:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:59 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > what if we do a recount, but only count those votes which have some kind > of physical proof. > > ?Throwing away millions of votes when there is no evidence there is anything wrong with them is no way to increase the confidence of the American people that things are not rigged. If even Hillary publicly accepts that the election was not rigged then I think we should too, mush as I hate Trump. Exactly what Hillary privately thinks of Comey and the disgraceful behavior of the FBI is another matter. But I'll tell you what does bug me, Hillary got more votes but Trump won the election; yes I know it's in the Constitution but that doesn't make it right. ?Are? Wyoming ? voters really 3.18? times smarter than the average American voter? Are California voters really the dumbest of all? I don't think so. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 11 04:28:49 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:28:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <006601d23ac5$c703a980$550afc80$@att.net> Message-ID: <003b01d23bd4$1a480a00$4ed81e00$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 8:01 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 3:13 PM, spike > wrote: ?> >?if black hole mergers can make this signal, then neutron binaries can too, ?? ?>?Or maybe they were formed even before the first stars, before any element formed, ?before even a proton could form when everything was a mega-hot mega-dense quark gluon plasma. Computer simulations say if they exist primordial Black Holes should have more elliptical orbits than stellar Black Holes, so once we have more mergers for statistical analysis (a thousand a year should do the trick) we might be able to recognize that there are indeed 2 clear cut populations of orbiting Black Holes. ?John K Clark I wasn?t aware until I went to his recent memorial service that Lee Corbin was working on black hole stuff for some time. About three years ago, we went to breakfast and I shared what I was thinking about at the time. Imagine a neutron star of less than Chandrasekhar?s limit, but big. I think two solar masses works for this thought experiment. Now imagine you are a photon and you originate very nearby, perhaps from a neutron decay or something. You head outbound, you get way red-shifted, but go on your way. Now imagine two such neutron stars orbiting each other at some distance. If you originate between the two and head outbound along an axis perpendicular to the line connecting the two (like the axle on your bike tire with the two neutron stars on the rim) then you still get away, but even more red shift. OK now imagine bringing the two neutron stars closer together until eventually an event horizon envelopes the both of them. Now if you are a photon which forms between them, you are out of luck, you are staying home. So far so good? OK now imagine those two big sub-Chandrasekhar neutron stars in an elliptic orbit about each other. When they get close during perihelion (peri-neutrion?) they are temporarily close enough to form an area between the two masses where you (the photon) cannot escape. Afterwards the neutron stars move apart toward aphelion, at which time that region between opens back up to proton escape. I am not sure it works that way, or if I am incorrectly mixing Newtonian and Einstein models, but this blipping in and out of existence the photon-stay-home region would cause the orbits of the neutron stars to decay quickly, causing that ringdown. Anyway, Lee Corbin and I discussed this, and I think he went off and worked on it but we didn?t discuss the matter further. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 11 05:26:00 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:26:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <006801d23bdc$16f3b540$44db1fc0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark ubject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:59 PM, spike > wrote: ? > ?>?what if we do a recount, but only count those votes which have some kind of physical proof. ? >?Throwing away millions of votes when there is no evidence there is anything wrong with them is no way to increase the confidence of the American people that things are not rigged? Agreed. However, if things are rigged, then we want to decrease confidence of the American people that things are not rigged. OK, so prove it. >?If even Hillary publicly accepts that the election was not rigged then I think we should too? If even Hillary publicly accepts that the election was not rigged, I still don?t. You know I am not a fan of Hillary, but this is her one chance remaining: request a recount. Here?s where I am really going with this: I don?t really think the vote was rigged, or if so not by all that much. But it doesn?t take much, just 1 percent. And what if it is rigged? And what if it had gone the other way but just barely, and Trump did call for a recount? And what if the election people had just said no? Then what? Oh this could have been trouble. So why do we keep playing American roulette, when we don?t need to? It?s risky, dangerous. Today we see protestors calling for murder, these peaceful types: https://youtu.be/5GrFtASxkvk Our local high school principal is in the news today for going to a student walkout and shouting over the public address system ?Fuck Donald Trump!? to the cheers of students. I just don?t recall that happening when I was in high school and Jimmy Carter won. How much worse would it have been had it gone the other way, with all those disappointed deplorables? We need a system which we can trust and verify. We are playing with fire. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 06:36:29 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:36:29 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What to Expect for Space and Sci/Tech Under President Trump? Message-ID: My last story, enjoy: What to Expect for Space and Sci/Tech Under President Trump? https://hacked.com/expect-space-scitech-president-trump/ From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:54:11 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:54:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 11 November 2016 at 04:39, John Clark wrote: > But I'll tell you what does bug me, Hillary got more votes but Trump won the > election; yes I know it's in the Constitution but that doesn't make it > right. > Are Wyoming voters really 3.18 times smarter than the average American voter? > Are California voters really the dumbest of all? I don't think so. > Voting systems are complicated. The UK system is even worse. Hilary didn't get the most votes in all states. Trump states would be upset if Hilary was elected Pres just as Hilary states are now protesting about Trump. And about 45% of the electorate didn't even bother to vote. So 1% switching is trivial. Some form of proportional representation voting seems fairest, but these systems can get pretty complex. (With the elected government choosing a leader for President, or Prime Minister in the UK). PR has disadvantages as well from a politicians point of view. The main disadvantage is that smaller political parties get some representation in government and this leads to coalition governments where everybody has to compromise on what they would like to do. Disagreements often lead to more frequent elections as coalitions break down. PR supporters claim that this is really an advantage as it stops one leading party implementing all their wild ideas. :) BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:15:46 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:39 PM, John Clark wrote: > If even Hillary publicly accepts that the election was not rigged then I > think we should too, mush as I hate Trump. > ### Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - her boys did the rigging. They just didn't rig enough to win, so now they'll fume in private and pretend the fraud didn't happen. But they'll try to rig much more next time. We should have a nationwide investigation. Drag the truth out, kicking and screaming, drag the crooks to prison, have a hatefest. And while we are at it, change the law and disenfranchise absolutely everybody who takes money from the government. All Congressmen, federal, state and local government employees, their dependents, soldiers, police, public school teachers, Medicare doctors, welfare queens, Pell grant recipients, the President, and all the others who are on the take. Let's have an honest election one day. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:37:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 12:37:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: ?> ? > ### Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - > her boys did the rigging. > ?And you know this because you don't read newspapers but you do read Breitbart and Fox News. And Breitbart and Fox News always tell the truth. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 21:15:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:15:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Will you keep the American people in suspense for 4 years or will you promise today to abide by the results of the 2020 presidential election even if you don't win? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 22:16:55 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:16:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why bother? Do you think he's going to be bound by his answer? Would his answer comfort you? -Dave On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 4:15 PM, John Clark wrote: > Will you keep the American people in suspense for 4 years or will you > promise today to abide by the results of the 2020 presidential election > even if you don't win? > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 11 23:51:07 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:51:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 1:15 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Will you keep the American people in suspense for 4 years or will you promise today to abide by the results of the 2020 presidential election even if you don't win? John K Clark I do! Oh wait, you meant? that guy they say won, OK. Let?s see, that one, 2020 contest. Mike Pence and Jenna Bush vs. Michelle Obama and Chelsea Clinton? Oh we can do so much better than this crowd. What happened to that guy they had, Senator Jim Webb? He seemed so honest and sane, a decorated veteran with two purple hearts, I am astonished he didn?t walk away with the nomination with change left over. Anyone who has been in combat will not be eager to send anyone else?s sons there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 00:14:24 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:14:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] LIGO: RE: Hey, look on the bright side In-Reply-To: <003b01d23bd4$1a480a00$4ed81e00$@att.net> References: <00a701d23a9c$2d186b90$874942b0$@att.net> <010701d23aa8$eec99230$cc5cb690$@att.net> <006601d23ac5$c703a980$550afc80$@att.net> <003b01d23bd4$1a480a00$4ed81e00$@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:28 PM, spike wrote: > > ?> ? > Imagine a neutron star of less than Chandrasekhar?s limit, but big. I > think two solar masses works for this thought experiment. Now imagine you > are a photon and you originate very nearby, perhaps from a neutron decay or > something. You head outbound, you get way red-shifted, but go on your > way. Now imagine two such neutron stars orbiting each other at some > distance. If you originate between the two and head outbound along an axis > perpendicular to the line connecting the two (like the axle on your bike > tire with the two neutron stars on the rim) then you still get away, but > even more red shift. > ? ? > OK now imagine bringing the two neutron stars closer together until > eventually an event horizon envelopes the both of them. > ? [...] > Afterwards the neutron stars move apart toward aphelion ?Once ?the two Neutron stars get close enough to form a event horizon they're not getting out again and neither is that photon. A Black Hole will have been formed ?with a non spherical ?horizon which will then vibrate violently and shed gravitational waves and become spherical in the process. That will take a second or two. Chandrasekhar?s limit is 1.44 solar masses ? for a non rotating dead star that has run out of internal energy, like fusion, to push things out and fight against gravity. A neutron star can be more massive than what Chandrasekhar ? says if it is rotating fast enough. ? Theory can't yet pinpoint how massive neutron stars can be because we aren't sure exactly how strong Neutronium ? (the stuff neutron stars are made of) is, and if the star spins too fast it will fly apart, but we know approximately. The limit is somewhere between 2 and 3.5 solar masses. Any more massive than that and that the neutron star turns into a Black Hole. And theory matches pretty well with observation. The most massive neutron star ever observed is 1.97 ? solar masses and is spinning at 317 revolutions per second. The least massive Black Hole ever found is 3.8 solar masses. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 00:29:35 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:29:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2016, at 3:51 PM, spike wrote: > I do! > > Oh wait, you meant? that guy they say won, OK. > > Let?s see, that one, 2020 contest. Mike Pence and Jenna Bush vs. Michelle Obama and Chelsea Clinton? > > Oh we can do so much better than this crowd. What happened to that guy they had, Senator Jim Webb? He seemed so honest and sane, a decorated veteran with two purple hearts, I am astonished he didn?t walk away with the nomination with change left over. Anyone who has been in combat will not be eager to send anyone else?s sons there. Spike, four years ago you might have made a reasonable guess Hillary Clinton would run and win her party's nomination, but would you have guessed Trump would run and win the GOP nomination? If not, then do you think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 02020? I don't. (Of course, they could be stupid like the GOP -- lining up McCain back in 02008 and Dole back in 01996: weak candidates who seemed to earn being on the ticket by simple seniority rather than broad appeal.;) I think, though, it's likely not to be another Clinton or another Obama. I believe this campaign kind of was a rejection of the House of Clinton. Meaning? Democrats won't give them another chance. It's likely also a rejection of the House of Bush. Recall how Jeb was predicted an early favorite in 02015, then his campaign evaporated faster then a mini-black hole. Why think future elections will merely be rehashing the same small cast of characters? (This isn't to say much changes: shitty policy mixes, but with new, more often unrelated* faces.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst * I don't mean complete outsiders, but who were the Clintons in 01990? I was perhaps too young to notice, but had you known about them back then? Anyone else here know of them in 01990? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 01:43:01 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:43:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Dan TheBookMan ?> ? > do you think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic > Party's nominee in 02020? ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 01:52:09 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:52:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even if the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the Greens to give the illusion of democracy. But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst of the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for Trump's head. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 02:12:44 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:12:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, extropy? Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. bill w On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, > I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes > for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > > There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even if > the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the > Greens to give the illusion of democracy. > > But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst of > the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil > conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for > Trump's head. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 02:32:57 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:32:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: When I watch or read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I always listen very closely to the "Wave" speech. If you're familiar with the work, you know what I'm talking about. It's a poignant meditation by a man who had devoted his entire identity to a movement, a movement that was going to change the world, and then watched it all fade away. When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they were in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened since then, It almost fills me with joy. Because we won! Mostly anyways. The weirdo out-there ideas we used to throw around are now pretty much most people's every day. Millions of people today used voice recognition on the pocket computers they carry everywhere to ask a huge network of data centers to query terabyte databases to tell them where would be a good place to go to lunch. Said database company, btw, just made an AI that plays Go better than any human. Cryptocurrency is a significant concern to the financial elites of the world. Billionarire entreprenuers [who incidentally are pursuing reasonably credible plans to singlehandedly colonize Mars] speak casually of the world being a computer simulation, and not only do their stock prices not crash, it makes no ripple at all! People just say "Yep, may be." Ok, so diamond-phase nanotechnology could be a bit further ahead, and true morphological freedom (as opposed to extremely effective medical protheses) may not be on most people's ethical radars yet, but we're definitely getting there. I was the techy weirdo because, in 2001, I was the only person in the building with cellular internet in 1999. Now I'm the weirdo because I'm almost the only person in my workplace's building /without/ a smartphone. Transhumanism and Extropianism didn't fade away, or burn out. They turned into everyone's background normal. The future we saw has begun to arrive, and it is still coming. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > extropy? > > Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the > chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not > doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > bill w > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: >> > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, >> I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a >> nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes >> for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. >> >> There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even >> if the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and >> the Greens to give the illusion of democracy. >> >> But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst >> of the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil >> conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for >> Trump's head. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 12 02:38:16 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:38:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] what the commies are saying Message-ID: <023e01d23c8d$d2d73460$78859d20$@att.net> Sometimes it helps to get a foreign perspective when one's own press is all over the map. Here's what the Russians are saying: ?????? ??????????????: ????? ?? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? 959 ???????????? 1 ???????? 6 ????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? - ?????? ????????? ? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ????????? ????????????? ??????????? ????????? ??????????? ?????? ???. "??? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????, ?? ? ?????????????? ?? ????????? ??????? - ??? ??????? ? ????????????? ? ???????? ????? ? ????????? ?????? ??? ????????????? ?? ?????? ? ????? ????, ?? ? ?? ????????????? ?????", - ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????????????? ??????. "?????? ????? - ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??????, ?????????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ????????? ??????, ? ????????? ?? ???????????? ???????. ????? ???????????? ???? ? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ? ?? ????????? ?.??????? ?????? ?????? ????????. ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????? ????????", - ????????? ???????. "?????????? ???? ?????? ?? ????????? ? ??????????? ??????? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????. ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????, ? ?? ?????? ???????",,- ???????????? ?????????. ?? ?????? ??????????? ???????, "????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ???, ??? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????". ??? ?????????, ??????, ??? ??????? "???? ?????????" ? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????. "???????? ???????????? ????????????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? ??????????????, ??????????????, ??????????? ??????? ? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????, ????? - ????????? ??? ? ????? ??????????? ? ????????? ????? ??????", - ??????? ??. ????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????????? ? ????? ? ??????? ??????, ?? ?????? ?? "????????? ??????? ??? ?????????????". "?????? - ??? ???????????-?????????????? ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ? ?????????????. ?????? - ?????, ??? ??????????? ???????? ????????, ????? ????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ????????, ???????? ??????????, ??????? ?????????", - ??????? ??. "? ????????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ?? ??????????? ???????????? ???????, ??????, ??? "???????????? ????", ??????? ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????, ????????? ?? ??????????",- ????????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????????? ??????????????. "????? ????? ?????????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ???????? ??????? ???. ? ???????? ??????????? ?? ?????? ??????????, ??? ??????????? ??????, ??????, ???????????? ????????????? ???????, ???????? ????????????, ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????, ??? ????? ??????????????, ?????????, ????????? "??????? ?????????", - ????????? ??. "????? ??? ??????????? ?? 100% ????? ????????. ??? ?????? ?????? - ?????, ???????????? ????? ???????? ? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????????? ?????????",- ??????? ???????????? ?????. ????????, ??? ??????? ????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???. ??? ????????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????????? 70-??????? ???????????, ??????? ???? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ? ???????. This perspective didn't help a bit. I just don't know what to think of this commentary. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I don't understand a single word of Russian. The English translation makes a lot more sense however: Should Russia rejoice at Donald Trump's victory? 09.11.2016 The head of the Civil Society Development Fund, Konstantin Kostin, is certain that the victory of presidential candidate Donald Trump has demonstrated people's disappointment in the old American elite. "No one was expecting Trump to win. They did not expect the Republicans to take the majority at the Senate elections. This speaks of people's disappointment in Obama's policies. The American people have shown that they do not want to see Democrats either in the White House or on Capitol Hill," one of Russia's leading political strategists said. "The Americans were ready to accept Obama's tax increases. At the same time, many people had to cut their living standards. Yet, no one wants to give the money to the lazy instead of the poor," the analyst believes. According to Konstantin Kostin, "Trump will defend US interests, while reducing the budget spending on the export of democracy." "Let's wait for the formation of the Trump administration. It is hard for me to understand the Russian MPs, who applauded to the news about Trump's election. Trump is the US President, and he will act in the interests of his country first and foremost," the analyst said. Donald Trump's victory is not a perfect occasion for applause on Russia's part, yet, Russia has two reasons for restrained optimism, Mr. Kostin believes. "First off, US-Russian relations have always been better and more predictable during the times of Republican presidents. Secondly, Trump, as an adherent of realpolitik, will certainly be against the USA's mission of the global hegemon, exporter of democracy and color revolutions," he explained. "Trump is most unusual and anti-system candidate in modern US history. The support that Trump has received means that most Americans are a lot more interested in their own income, taxes and safety than in the rights of sexual minorities, migrants and issues associated with color revolutions. "Trump has taken a complete advantage of this in his campaign. His winning recipe contains such ingredients as bright and extraordinary style in conjunction with absolutely conservative rhetoric," Konstantin Kostin said. Politonline - See more at: http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/politics/09-11-2016/136111-russia_donald_ trump_wins-0/#sthash.ndBuskdM.dpuf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 12 03:44:17 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:44:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the joy of now, was: RE: The very first question ... Message-ID: <028201d23c97$0bd62ec0$23828c40$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Darin Sunley Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:33 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump >?When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they were in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened since then, It almost fills me with joy? Thanks for this Darin. With me it isn?t almost. I am filled with joy when I ponder where our heads were in the 1990s and compare. Back in those days, about 1994 when the internet was really starting up, when I started reading (but not yet posting to) Extropians, what kinds of things I was thinking. I didn?t allow myself to believe the wilder things, fearing disappointment should it fail to appear. Other areas I so underestimated, I am delighted completely. For instance: We talked a lot about some form of flying cars. I know how to do the calcs on that, so I knew that no matter what, we were not going up, not on a daily individual basis. No flying cars: inherent limitations in vertical take-off will always be with us, regardless of material advances. So I knew that was going to be a no-show. Check. What I didn?t foresee was the stunning development of other technologies that would make high speed transportation less relevant now than it was 20 yrs ago. We talked a lot about transparency. Watching how one of our own took hold of this and created WikiLeaks has been a constant delight. Watching its impact on government, astonishing, exhilarating. We talked about advances in computing power. That Moore?s Law continued as long as it did right up to near the atomic limit blows my mind. We talked about future astronomy instruments, but back then I never would have dreamed we would build LIGO and have it find something immediately. That one thing is a perfect example of something I just would not have believed, even if a deep booming voice had come from a clear sky, the kind of deep booming voice you just know doesn?t lie, telling me an instrument would be built and would find gravity waves. I would have found the nearest bullhorn and pointed it back skyward and shouted NOOOOO WAAAAAY? But it happened. The real-money ideas futures: I just won a pile on this latest election. It helps to remind oneself that betting is on what you believe is going to happen, not what you want to happen. I did. I won. Brain prosthesis: well wait now, think about it. We didn?t get an implantable device, but what we did get is in some ways better: these nifty little smart phones with internet and OK Google is pretty close to a brain prosthetic. I would argue it is better in a way. Suppose some yahoo invented a device you could surgically implant in your brain to get 20 additional IQ points. Would I do it? Probably not. Why? It would hafta be risky and expensive. Brain surgery just isn?t going to be cheap and it isn?t going to be without major risks, no way. At this point I might envy those who received one, but probably wouldn?t do it myself. But I take my phone everywhere, and I use OK Google a lot. I took the cub scouts and joined a Veterans Day parade in San Jose today. I used OK Google about a dozen times while I was out. Cell phones are cheap and pose no risk at all. I would argue this is a form of brain prosthetic that turned out better than 90s visions. That the internet would become as effective a means of education for all has exceeded my grandest vision. Now we all carry the world?s libraries in our pockets. There is grandeur in this view of life. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 08:20:04 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:20:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) Message-ID: Last political post for a while (I hope) https://giulioprisco.com/last-political-post-for-a-while-i-hope-cce8a82d9103 I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to Donald???now President-elect???Trump. It appears I was right. I was not only right: I was spectacularly right... From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 12:47:51 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:47:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:37 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> ### Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - >> her boys did the rigging. >> > > ?And you know this because you don't read newspapers but you do > read Breitbart and Fox News. And Breitbart and Fox News always tell the > truth. > > John K Clark > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Senior Scientist, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 This electronic message transmission contains information from the biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kuudes at leijuvakaupunki.fi Sat Nov 12 10:11:39 2016 From: kuudes at leijuvakaupunki.fi (kuudes) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:11:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Mielik.fi - Retakeable IQ test Message-ID: <8a800812-df50-bb4d-2b17-459c2f6605cf@leijuvakaupunki.fi> If I may, I would like to tell of the list that I have made a retakeable intelligence test to internet on http://mielik.fi. Mielik's main solution is to the problem that with other current iq tests we cannot use them multiple times on the same person (at least within a reasonable timeframe). This causes us many complications, mainly that we don't have a good device to truly test what effect if any some intervention has on iq. This comes from the training effect, ie that the people exposed to the test learn the test's testlets. Mielik uses Item-response theory based machine learning approach, which allows it to feed the testee random testlets and yet return a measurement estimate on the same scale regardless of the testlets chosen. Currently the system is in public beta, and the main bottleneck now is to get the test to meet a lot of different people in order to learn which testlets are easier and which harder. My estimate is that it will stabilize on N<10000 uses. On internet, this is surprisingly small population, as another internet iq test, the data of which I have had the honor of view and analyze, gets more than 1000 users per week. Before stabilization it will likely give out estimates that are much more towards the mean than they truly should be. My personal vision would be to try to change iq testing from current "MRI machine" approach (costs XXX$ per time, is rarely done) to "home scale" (costs ~nil per time, can be done privately for personal aims). Sometimes people like what they see the scale reporting as their weight, sometimes they don't like that. Nevertheless many people consider it useful to track how their weight develops over their lifetime and take some effective interventions to manage their weight development, such as practicing sports or managing their food intake. I would hope that with proper instruments, we could develop some truly effective treatments to maintain our human intelligence to the par of each person possible. My sincere hope is that mielik.fi will be at least first of such an instrument. If you want to help, you can: * send people to take mielik.fi test * tell me how to propagate the test more widely and motivate me to do so Thank you! Yours, kuudes, lurker of the list for less than 2 years. From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:00:05 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:00:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ?> ? > Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - her > boys did the rigging. > ? [...]? > I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. ?With such prodigious thinking abilities you should be able to easily derive the mass of the electron from first principles too. I eagerly await your next post. John K Clark ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:19:21 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:19:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: Ok, that was funny! On Nov 12, 2016 10:00 AM, "John Clark" wrote: > > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > ?> ? >> Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - her >> boys did the rigging. >> ? [...]? >> I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. > > > ?With such prodigious thinking abilities you should be able to easily > derive the mass of the electron from first principles too. I eagerly await > your next post. > > John K Clark ? > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:05:28 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:05:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote:: ?> >>> ?>>? >>> ? >>> Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - >>> her boys did the rigging. >>> ? [...]? >>> I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. >> >> >> ? >> ?>> ? >> With such prodigious thinking abilities you should be able to easily >> derive the mass of the electron from first principles too. I eagerly await >> your next post. >> > > > ?> ? > Ok, that was funny! ?If, with no help from stuff like ? Breitbart ?, one is smart enough ? ? to be able to go from "I think therefore I am" to "Hillary's boys ?rigged the election" ? then deriving the mass of the electron should be child's play. After all, Hillary's behavior is largely determined by electrons.? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 12 18:05:57 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 10:05:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> Message-ID: <005901d23d0f$6b9f9530$42debf90$@att.net> On Nov 12, 2016 10:00 AM, "John Clark" > wrote: Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: ?> ?>?I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. ?>?With such prodigious thinking abilities you should be able to easily derive the mass of the electron from first principles too. I eagerly await your next post. John K Clark ? If you are in a hurry, skip to the last paragraph (the rest of this you can pretty much guess what I said (for I freely admit it is my longstanding obsession (because I fear we will eventually get an election that is as close as 2000 but as consequential as 2016 (and that will be dangerous as all hell (but you already know me and tolerate me (thanks.)))))) The reason I proposed a recount wasn?t even political: I have little reason to hope the guy I voted for would do much better in a recount. But I think we could build confidence and create the statistician?s playground were a recount to occur, particularly if every machine total is published. If we did that, it still preserves perfect anonymity of the voters, still keeps everything legal, and shines a bright light on the process itself and builds proletariat confidence in the process. Everyone wins! This modest proposal seems so fitting in an election which appears to have been tipped by transparency. (Anyone here wish to argue that transparency was not a deciding factor, if not the very most important deciding factor? (I thought not. (We found out a looootta lotta stuff about the inner circle we proles have never been allowed to gaze upon (the leaked video, the hacked email servers and so on.))) If all those results are published, broken down by absentee ballot, mail-in ballot, in-person paper ballot and paperless machine ballot we can do marvelous things with statistical models, and we don?t know what we might find in those numbers, but my fellow yanks and my patient non-yank interested US watchers, those numbers will tell a story. When in college, if you took lab courses, you remember the drill: you recorded the serial number of every instrument you used, along with the readings because that sometimes is important. Later if you had a lab job (I did) you recorded the SN of every measurement instrument in your report, the last calibration date and where to find the calibration documentation, all that stuff. OK so? is it such a stretch of the imagination to demand some kind of post-game documentation on any instrument which has calibration? Some of the machines use a touch screen, ja? And we know that touch-screen devices are calibrated, ja? And pretty much all of us here have seen touch screens that aren?t working very well and what happens if it is off by a little, if you are trying to play a video game on one, ja? OK so what if the calibration is off on one of the machines. What would it look like in the statistics? Would you have examples of a polling place with ten machines and exactly one is off in its total count? What if that one is differs from the others by 10%? Can we make a statistical model and calculate the probability of that? And can we compare manufacturer and look at other data and figure out the probability of something like that happening by chance? Answer, ja we can. We have the power! We have statistics! Ohhhh the heady feeling of proletariat empowerment! I am high on it! Intoxicated! The willingness and eagerness to view that data should be universal, ja? The losing parties have nothing to lose and the victorious party cannot reasonably object, after the comments that have been uttered. Turning over the data will not damage confidence in the election process; on the contrary, it would build confidence. Nowthen. I would take it a step further please, and I do thank you if you are still reading down to the bottom of this caustic screed. I would argue that this election data belongs to US! That data belongs to the taxpayers! We paid for it with our tax dollars, now that information is our property. The same argument that gave us FOIA (blessed be that legislation, and may it live forever) applies to this data: we bought it, now we get to eat it! And oh boy, that would be a tasty statistical feast, a data banquet I would sooo like to devour with digital relish. So hand it over, all we can eat. It is ours, we paid for it, dearly we paid for that, we are still paying and we will pay into the far future, and note that the final election takes place in five weeks and two days. So prove it, serve up our data, all of it, hot and fresh, forthwith. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Nov 12 19:56:26 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:56:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <005901d23d0f$6b9f9530$42debf90$@att.net> References: <000c01d23b81$c4f0a190$4ed1e4b0$@att.net> <004501d23b84$8b20f340$a162d9c0$@att.net> <005901d23d0f$6b9f9530$42debf90$@att.net> Message-ID: <2518c0c9-7c8f-5570-8488-3e8b2b218f33@libero.it> Il 12/11/2016 19:05, spike ha scritto: > Nowthen. I would take it a step further please, and I do thank you if > you are still reading down to the bottom of this caustic screed. I > would argue that this election data belongs to US! That data belongs to > the taxpayers! We paid for it with our tax dollars, now that > information is our property. The same argument that gave us FOIA > (blessed be that legislation, and may it live forever) applies to this > data: we bought it, now we get to eat it! And oh boy, that would be a > tasty statistical feast, a data banquet I would sooo like to devour with > digital relish. So hand it over, all we can eat. It is ours, we paid > for it, dearly we paid for that, we are still paying and we will pay > into the far future, and note that the final election takes place in > five weeks and two days. As an european, and an italian in particular, I'm amazed by the clownish ways voting is implemented in the US. As www.schneier.com told many times, simplicity is the key of security. Paper ballots, special pencils, voter ID documents, voters able to read, write, unfold and fold the ballot and put it inside a paper box. Is it too racist to ask for these? Because this is like we do in Italy and fraud was always limited. For the illetterate people, I can give a suggestion used in Italy: Normographs (with the name of the candidates to vote). The illetterate elector can take one, put on the ballot and use the pencil (Do I need to specify how?) Use the government schools to hold the ballots. It is just a few days and the children will be happy about a week of freedom. And make the election day a festivity. So the majority of people has no excuses for not voting. Send the certificate to vote to every person with the right to vote without requiring them to register. Mirco From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 22:27:11 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:27:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: ?> ? > I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social > Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to > Donald ? now President-elect ? Trump. It appears I was right. I was > not only right: I was spectacularly right... > ? It's not just the liberal left that demands political correctness; pundits must say the typical Trump supporter is a "low information voter" and not use the correct technical term, "dumb shits", because if they don't the conservative right will give them grief. Just look at all the trouble Hillary got into for using the word "deplorables", if she could have though of some politically correct ? euphemism ? she might be President-elect today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sat Nov 12 23:43:42 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 00:43:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <049f36e0-2acf-9fd3-5953-cfbff2480e22@libero.it> Il 12/11/2016 23:27, John Clark ha scritto: > she might be President-elect today. > John K Clark Is it so difficult to accept people will? You are free to move somewhere else and build your society. A lot of people do. Away from deplorables, racists, stupids, evil, insane individuals that elected Trumps. Flee before the door of the asylum close. Maybe there is a place for you in Venezuela, or Cuba, or Little St. James. You should look into Seasteading. A community of individuals like you, on a seastead , should be able to build a thriving and progressive society away from the bigoted trumpites. My raccomendation is to not allow any right wingers on your island/seastead. Use weapons and letal force if needed to keep them away. My raccomendation to the right wingers is the same: do not allo JKC on your seastead or anyone of the left. Then I would be interested in seeing how both of the communities fare compared to the other. There is a novel by Dallas McCord Reynolds ?The Rival Rigalians? 1967 about this topic. From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 23:56:29 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:56:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 November 2016 at 08:20, Giulio Prisco wrote: > I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social > Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to > Donald???now President-elect???Trump. It appears I was right. I was > not only right: I was spectacularly right... > Here is an amazing 6 minute video rant by comedian Jonathan Pie supporting your PC claim. Very sweary, not for those upset by bad language! :) This is who is to blame for Trump. BillK From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 13 00:41:31 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:41:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006001d23d46$adabfae0$0903f0a0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK ... Here is an amazing 6 minute video rant by comedian Jonathan Pie supporting your PC claim. Very sweary, not for those upset by bad language! :) This is who is to blame for Trump. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nQIcjnMFQo BillK Oh this is cool. All these years I have wondered what happens if you set up a video camera playing back its own image in the background and there is motion. Now I know: there is a time delay which causes those cool patterns seen in the video. I think he is right on, but I am now wondering about the whole PC thing. Clearly that is no longer, since a performer can utter the following rhythmic commentary at a campaign event without being forever banned to a basket of deplorables: http://lyricsdatabase.org/withmeyouknowigotit-lyrics-lebron-james.html and http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/linkinpark/dirtoffyourshoulderlyingfromyou.html I can imagine plenty of young people listening to that and deciding perhaps they don't wish to be in the same basket with this particular performer and those responsible for hiring him to perform. I really cannot imagine anyone thinking this is inspirational. Contrast the 1992 inauguration event where they had Fleetwood Mac performing Don't Stop Thinking About Tomorrow. Look up the lyrics to the Mac song and compare it to Dirt Off Your Shoulder. Then remind me, who is in that basket of deplorables? Completely as a side note, only vaguely related, literally in this case: a couple years ago I did a spit test for 23&Me and AncestryDNA. One of my closest relatives on 23 is Donna Shinoda. So now I am related to some guy who formed LinkInPark, a rap group who I never heard of. I played about 8 seconds of one of their YouTubes and wished I could have been related instead to Roy Orbison, or perhaps John Denver, hell even Alice Cooper, rather than this Mike Shinoda character. I see LinkInPark had some hand in creating this deplorable rhythmic utterance, oh spare me. I am so not hip, and now I am quite satisfied to stay not hip. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 01:34:38 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 19:34:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] election Message-ID: Unless I have missed something, no one has mentioned the Electoral Colllege. I noticed that Hillary won the popular vote but rather badly lost the Electoral vote. Why not get rid of th Electoral College? I am far far from the first to recommend that. No doubt there were good reasons at the time to institute it(?). bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 01:54:39 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:54:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:34 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Unless I have missed something, no one has mentioned the Electoral > Colllege. > > I noticed that Hillary won the popular vote but rather badly lost the > Electoral vote. > There are those who are lobbying the electors to respect the national popular vote and elect Clinton after all. We'll see if they can pull it off. (If you're in one of the states whose electors are voting for Trump, and your electors won't face massive legal penalties for switching to Clinton (there are many states where the penalty is a mere $1,000 fine - or none at all), maybe you can lobby too, and maybe get your friends in on it. See http://shezep.tumblr.com/post/153013276583/notmypresident for details. > Why not get rid of th Electoral College? I am far far from the first to > recommend that. > Okay, but how? Not "what are the legal procedures", because it'd just take a constitutional amendment, but how might one assemble the resources and utilize the resources to get said amendment through the process? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 02:56:01 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 21:56:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > Unless I have missed something, no one has mentioned the Electoral > Colllege. > ? I > noticed that Hillary won the popular vote but rather badly lost the > Electoral vote. > ?Already Hillary got 1.8 million more votes than Trump did, and that figure will almost certainly grow. There are millions of votes that still haven't been counted and almost all of all of them are in California, Washington State, and New York, all deep blue Clinton states. In fact it looks very likely that Clinton will end up getting more votes that any president in the history of the USA. But she still lost and Trump still won. And that sucks bigly. ?> ? > Why not get rid of th Electoral College? I am far far from the first to > recommend that. > ? > No doubt there were good reasons at the time to institute it(?). > ?It was the only way they agreed on a constitution. The small states wanted each state to have a equal voice as in the Senate, and the big states wanted it to go with population as in the House, so they compromised. Besides getting rid of the electoral college I think people should be allowed to vote for more than one candidate, that way people could have voted for the Libertarian guy to make a point and also voted for Hillary to stop a fascist ? from gaining power.? John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 04:21:29 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:21:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:27 PM, John Clark wrote: > typical Trump supporter is a "low information voter" and not use the > correct technical term, "dumb shits", > ### I am not a Trump supporter but there are some amazing developments: Trump published an outline of his plan to terminate Obamacare, that Damocles' sword hanging over our lives (yours too, John). Trump appointed noted climate realists to a team which is going to take down the eco-fanatics at the EPA. If he keeps going like this I will end up not just a lukewarm supporter but an enthusiastic admirer. And the Hillary boys' election fraud? How can I explain it to you, being just a dumb shit? Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 13:45:47 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:45:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59b2c816-e1fb-baa0-12fa-165f2119bd93@libero.it> Il 13/11/2016 03:56, John Clark ha scritto: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 William Flynn Wallace >wrote: > > ?> ? > Unless I have missed something, no one has mentioned the Electoral > Colllege. > ? I > noticed that Hillary won the popular vote but rather badly lost the > Electoral vote. > ?Already Hillary got 1.8 million more votes than Trump did, and that > figure will almost certainly grow. There are millions of votes that > still haven't been counted and almost all of all of them are in > California, Washington State, and New York, all deep blue Clinton > states. In fact it looks very likely that Clinton will end up getting > more votes that any president in the history of the USA. But she still > lost and Trump still won. And that sucks bigly. What I read is California do not count the absenty ballots immediately after the election, but wait to see if the number of absenty ballots is enough to make a difference. "States don?t count their absentee ballots unless the number of outstanding absentee ballots is larger than the state margin of difference. If there is a margin of 1,000 votes counted and there are 1,300 absentee ballots outstanding, then the state tabulates those. If the number of outstanding absentee ballots wouldn?t influence the election results, then the absentee ballots aren?t counted." So, if the margin in California in greater than 1 M votes in favor of the democrats, California absentee ballots are not accounted for. So, if we suppose there is 1 M absentee ballonts in California, and these ballots are from mainly repubblican voters ("The historical breakout for absentee ballots is about 67-33% Republican. " cit.) then the accounting for the popular vote is skewed in favor of Democrats. So, if the difference in the popular vote is smaller than the number of the absentee ballots, stop claiming Hillary won the popular vote. It is just a statement without any support. Like the polls made with skewed samples. > Why not get rid of th Electoral College? I am far far from the > first to recommend that. > ? > No doubt there were good reasons at the time to institute it(?). > > > ?It was the only way they agreed on a constitution. The small states > wanted each state to have a equal voice as in the Senate, and the big > states wanted it to go with population as in the House, so they > compromised. > > Besides getting rid of the electoral college I think people should be > allowed to vote for more than one candidate, that way people could have > voted for the Libertarian guy to make a point and also voted for Hillary > to stop a fascist > ? from gaining power.? > > John K Clark ? The only real fascist I can see is Hillary and the people rioting and beating Trump supporters. I don't read you complaining about that. Probably you are cool with that. They surely deserve it for their affront to the party of the eternally righteous and bigots. Leftist always want a supreme leader. Unfortunately they got one they don't like so they riot. Good reason to reduce the government power. Because there is always a Trump (or a Hillary) awaiting to take that power and do what he/she want with it. If you like a omnipotent government, you can not complain if its power end in the hands of someone you don't like. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 14:08:31 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:08:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Il 13/11/2016 03:56, John Clark ha scritto: > Besides getting rid of the electoral college I think people should be > allowed to vote for more than one candidate, that way people could have > voted for the Libertarian guy to make a point and also voted for Hillary > to stop a fascist > ? from gaining power.? The fascist appointed Peter Thiel to the Presidential Transition Team. So the fascist appointed a gay man, a donor to the Seasteading Institute, to the team presieding the transition from the old to the new presidency. Hillary who would have named? Huma? With her links to the Muslim Brotherhood? From aussiesta at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 06:47:25 2016 From: aussiesta at hotmail.com (david roman) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 06:47:25 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I couldn't agree more. If Trump ends the reign of political correctness, even if he turns out to be a disaster in every other sense (which is entirely possible), he will have made humanity a favor. Slavoj Zizek largely agrees too, from his particular Zizekian-Marxist POV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bixgOtkLao&list=PL52uJ5PwDvHvpdAtkCvNJPfPD-E94Iik6&index=49 [https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVF.%2f3ypO9PbIm%2fKlLLQpxMSTw&pid=Api] Slavoj ?i?ek: How Political Correctness Actually Elected ... www.youtube.com Slovenian philosopher Slavoj ?i?ek thinks the U.S. political machinery is truly broken. He guides a verbal tour through the failure of manufactured consent, the ... ________________________________ De: extropy-chat en nombre de extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org Enviado: s?bado, 12 de noviembre de 2016 20:48 Para: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Asunto: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 17 Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat extropy-chat Info Page lists.extropy.org The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is open to ExI members ... or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org You can reach the person managing the list at extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump (Dan TheBookMan) 2. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump (John Clark) 3. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump (Adrian Tymes) 4. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump (William Flynn Wallace) 5. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump (Darin Sunley) 6. what the commies are saying (spike) 7. the joy of now, was: RE: The very first question ... (spike) 8. Last political post for a while (I hope) (Giulio Prisco) 9. Re: ok, so prove it (Rafal Smigrodzki) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:29:35 -0800 From: Dan TheBookMan To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Nov 11, 2016, at 3:51 PM, spike wrote: > I do! > > Oh wait, you meant? that guy they say won, OK. > > Let?s see, that one, 2020 contest. Mike Pence and Jenna Bush vs. Michelle Obama and Chelsea Clinton? > > Oh we can do so much better than this crowd. What happened to that guy they had, Senator Jim Webb? He seemed so honest and sane, a decorated veteran with two purple hearts, I am astonished he didn?t walk away with the nomination with change left over. Anyone who has been in combat will not be eager to send anyone else?s sons there. Spike, four years ago you might have made a reasonable guess Hillary Clinton would run and win her party's nomination, but would you have guessed Trump would run and win the GOP nomination? If not, then do you think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 02020? I don't. (Of course, they could be stupid like the GOP -- lining up McCain back in 02008 and Dole back in 01996: weak candidates who seemed to earn being on the ticket by simple seniority rather than broad appeal.;) I think, though, it's likely not to be another Clinton or another Obama. I believe this campaign kind of was a rejection of the House of Clinton. Meaning? Democrats won't give them another chance. It's likely also a rejection of the House of Bush. Recall how Jeb was predicted an early favorite in 02015, then his campaign evaporated faster then a mini-black hole. Why think future elections will merely be rehashing the same small cast of characters? (This isn't to say much changes: shitty policy mixes, but with new, more often unrelated* faces.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst Amazon.com: Books author.to Online shopping from a great selection at Books Store. * I don't mean complete outsiders, but who were the Clintons in 01990? I was perhaps too young to notice, but had you known about them back then? Anyone else here know of them in 01990? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:43:01 -0500 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Dan TheBookMan ?> ? > do you think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic > Party's nominee in 02020? ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:52:09 -0800 From: Adrian Tymes To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even if the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the Greens to give the illusion of democracy. But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst of the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for Trump's head. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:12:44 -0600 From: William Flynn Wallace To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, extropy? Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. bill w On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, > I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes > for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > > There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even if > the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the > Greens to give the illusion of democracy. > > But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst of > the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil > conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for > Trump's head. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat extropy-chat Info Page lists.extropy.org The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is open to ExI members ... > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:32:57 -0700 From: Darin Sunley To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" When I watch or read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I always listen very closely to the "Wave" speech. If you're familiar with the work, you know what I'm talking about. It's a poignant meditation by a man who had devoted his entire identity to a movement, a movement that was going to change the world, and then watched it all fade away. When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they were in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened since then, It almost fills me with joy. Because we won! Mostly anyways. The weirdo out-there ideas we used to throw around are now pretty much most people's every day. Millions of people today used voice recognition on the pocket computers they carry everywhere to ask a huge network of data centers to query terabyte databases to tell them where would be a good place to go to lunch. Said database company, btw, just made an AI that plays Go better than any human. Cryptocurrency is a significant concern to the financial elites of the world. Billionarire entreprenuers [who incidentally are pursuing reasonably credible plans to singlehandedly colonize Mars] speak casually of the world being a computer simulation, and not only do their stock prices not crash, it makes no ripple at all! People just say "Yep, may be." Ok, so diamond-phase nanotechnology could be a bit further ahead, and true morphological freedom (as opposed to extremely effective medical protheses) may not be on most people's ethical radars yet, but we're definitely getting there. I was the techy weirdo because, in 2001, I was the only person in the building with cellular internet in 1999. Now I'm the weirdo because I'm almost the only person in my workplace's building /without/ a smartphone. Transhumanism and Extropianism didn't fade away, or burn out. They turned into everyone's background normal. The future we saw has begun to arrive, and it is still coming. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > extropy? > > Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the > chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not > doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > bill w > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: >> > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, >> I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a >> nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes >> for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. >> >> There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even >> if the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and >> the Greens to give the illusion of democracy. >> >> But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst >> of the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil >> conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for >> Trump's head. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat extropy-chat Info Page lists.extropy.org The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is open to ExI members ... >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:38:16 -0800 From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: [ExI] what the commies are saying Message-ID: <023e01d23c8d$d2d73460$78859d20$@att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Sometimes it helps to get a foreign perspective when one's own press is all over the map. Here's what the Russians are saying: ?????? ??????????????: ????? ?? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????? 959 ???????????? 1 ???????? 6 ????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? - ?????? ????????? ? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ????????? ????????????? ??????????? ????????? ??????????? ?????? ???. "??? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????, ?? ? ?????????????? ?? ????????? ??????? - ??? ??????? ? ????????????? ? ???????? ????? ? ????????? ?????? ??? ????????????? ?? ?????? ? ????? ????, ?? ? ?? ????????????? ?????", - ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????????????? ??????. "?????? ????? - ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??????, ?????????? ???????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ????????? ??????, ? ????????? ?? ???????????? ???????. ????? ???????????? ???? ? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ? ?? ????????? ?.??????? ?????? ?????? ????????. ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????? ????????", - ????????? ???????. "?????????? ???? ?????? ?? ????????? ? ??????????? ??????? ?????. ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????. ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ? ???, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????, ? ?? ?????? ???????",,- ???????????? ?????????. ?? ?????? ??????????? ???????, "????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ???, ??? ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????". ??? ?????????, ??????, ??? ??????? "???? ?????????" ? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????. "???????? ???????????? ????????????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? ??????????????, ??????????????, ??????????? ??????? ? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????, ????? - ????????? ??? ? ????? ??????????? ? ????????? ????? ??????", - ??????? ??. ????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????????? ? ????? ? ??????? ??????, ?? ?????? ?? "????????? ??????? ??? ?????????????". "?????? - ??? ???????????-?????????????? ?????????-???????????? ????????? ?????? ????? ? ?????????????. ?????? - ?????, ??? ??????????? ???????? ????????, ????? ????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ????????, ???????? ??????????, ??????? ?????????", - ??????? ??. "? ????????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ?? ??????????? ???????????? ???????, ??????, ??? "???????????? ????", ??????? ????? ?????????? ??????? ?????????, ????????? ?? ??????????",- ????????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????????? ??????????????. "????? ????? ?????????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ???????? ??????? ???. ? ???????? ??????????? ?? ?????? ??????????, ??? ??????????? ??????, ??????, ???????????? ????????????? ???????, ???????? ????????????, ?????????? ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????, ??? ????? ??????????????, ?????????, ????????? "??????? ?????????", - ????????? ??. "????? ??? ??????????? ?? 100% ????? ????????. ??? ?????? ?????? - ?????, ???????????? ????? ???????? ? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????????? ?????????",- ??????? ???????????? ?????. ????????, ??? ??????? ????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???. ??? ????????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????????? 70-??????? ???????????, ??????? ???? ????????? ? ????????? ??? ? ???????. This perspective didn't help a bit. I just don't know what to think of this commentary. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I don't understand a single word of Russian. The English translation makes a lot more sense however: Should Russia rejoice at Donald Trump's victory? 09.11.2016 The head of the Civil Society Development Fund, Konstantin Kostin, is certain that the victory of presidential candidate Donald Trump has demonstrated people's disappointment in the old American elite. "No one was expecting Trump to win. They did not expect the Republicans to take the majority at the Senate elections. This speaks of people's disappointment in Obama's policies. The American people have shown that they do not want to see Democrats either in the White House or on Capitol Hill," one of Russia's leading political strategists said. "The Americans were ready to accept Obama's tax increases. At the same time, many people had to cut their living standards. Yet, no one wants to give the money to the lazy instead of the poor," the analyst believes. According to Konstantin Kostin, "Trump will defend US interests, while reducing the budget spending on the export of democracy." "Let's wait for the formation of the Trump administration. It is hard for me to understand the Russian MPs, who applauded to the news about Trump's election. Trump is the US President, and he will act in the interests of his country first and foremost," the analyst said. Donald Trump's victory is not a perfect occasion for applause on Russia's part, yet, Russia has two reasons for restrained optimism, Mr. Kostin believes. "First off, US-Russian relations have always been better and more predictable during the times of Republican presidents. Secondly, Trump, as an adherent of realpolitik, will certainly be against the USA's mission of the global hegemon, exporter of democracy and color revolutions," he explained. "Trump is most unusual and anti-system candidate in modern US history. The support that Trump has received means that most Americans are a lot more interested in their own income, taxes and safety than in the rights of sexual minorities, migrants and issues associated with color revolutions. "Trump has taken a complete advantage of this in his campaign. His winning recipe contains such ingredients as bright and extraordinary style in conjunction with absolutely conservative rhetoric," Konstantin Kostin said. Politonline - See more at: http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/politics/09-11-2016/136111-russia_donald_ trump_wins-0/#sthash.ndBuskdM.dpuf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:44:17 -0800 From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: [ExI] the joy of now, was: RE: The very first question ... Message-ID: <028201d23c97$0bd62ec0$23828c40$@att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Darin Sunley Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:33 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump >?When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they were in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened since then, It almost fills me with joy? Thanks for this Darin. With me it isn?t almost. I am filled with joy when I ponder where our heads were in the 1990s and compare. Back in those days, about 1994 when the internet was really starting up, when I started reading (but not yet posting to) Extropians, what kinds of things I was thinking. I didn?t allow myself to believe the wilder things, fearing disappointment should it fail to appear. Other areas I so underestimated, I am delighted completely. For instance: We talked a lot about some form of flying cars. I know how to do the calcs on that, so I knew that no matter what, we were not going up, not on a daily individual basis. No flying cars: inherent limitations in vertical take-off will always be with us, regardless of material advances. So I knew that was going to be a no-show. Check. What I didn?t foresee was the stunning development of other technologies that would make high speed transportation less relevant now than it was 20 yrs ago. We talked a lot about transparency. Watching how one of our own took hold of this and created WikiLeaks has been a constant delight. Watching its impact on government, astonishing, exhilarating. We talked about advances in computing power. That Moore?s Law continued as long as it did right up to near the atomic limit blows my mind. We talked about future astronomy instruments, but back then I never would have dreamed we would build LIGO and have it find something immediately. That one thing is a perfect example of something I just would not have believed, even if a deep booming voice had come from a clear sky, the kind of deep booming voice you just know doesn?t lie, telling me an instrument would be built and would find gravity waves. I would have found the nearest bullhorn and pointed it back skyward and shouted NOOOOO WAAAAAY? But it happened. The real-money ideas futures: I just won a pile on this latest election. It helps to remind oneself that betting is on what you believe is going to happen, not what you want to happen. I did. I won. Brain prosthesis: well wait now, think about it. We didn?t get an implantable device, but what we did get is in some ways better: these nifty little smart phones with internet and OK Google is pretty close to a brain prosthetic. I would argue it is better in a way. Suppose some yahoo invented a device you could surgically implant in your brain to get 20 additional IQ points. Would I do it? Probably not. Why? It would hafta be risky and expensive. Brain surgery just isn?t going to be cheap and it isn?t going to be without major risks, no way. At this point I might envy those who received one, but probably wouldn?t do it myself. But I take my phone everywhere, and I use OK Google a lot. I took the cub scouts and joined a Veterans Day parade in San Jose today. I used OK Google about a dozen times while I was out. Cell phones are cheap and pose no risk at all. I would argue this is a form of brain prosthetic that turned out better than 90s visions. That the internet would become as effective a means of education for all has exceeded my grandest vision. Now we all carry the world?s libraries in our pockets. There is grandeur in this view of life. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:20:04 +0100 From: Giulio Prisco To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Last political post for a while (I hope) https://giulioprisco.com/last-political-post-for-a-while-i-hope-cce8a82d9103 I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to Donald???now President-elect???Trump. It appears I was right. I was not only right: I was spectacularly right... ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:47:51 -0500 From: Rafal Smigrodzki Cc: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:37 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> ### Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it - >> her boys did the rigging. >> > > ?And you know this because you don't read newspapers but you do > read Breitbart and Fox News. And Breitbart and Fox News always tell the > truth. > > John K Clark > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Senior Scientist, Gencia Corporation 706 B Forest St. Charlottesville, VA 22903 tel: (434) 295-4800 fax: (434) 295-4951 This electronic message transmission contains information from the biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ------------------------------ End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 17 ********************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 13 17:11:31 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 09:11:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] it's a lie i tells ya! Message-ID: <002d01d23dd0$fb2b3350$f18199f0$@att.net> Ain't true! I had nothing to do with this, nothing! I didn't bring in any immigrants at all, illegal or otherwise. I have been falsely accused by a news major. Sheesh it is hard to be a libertarian, I get flak from both sides: spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30476 bytes Desc: not available URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 17:26:12 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:26:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Trump victory as blowback for PC? In-Reply-To: References: <249AD3B3-3359-4FBF-9063-5F9329B637D0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3a9de7eb-52b0-7269-9ea9-7b24ab70267c@libero.it> Il 10/11/2016 05:53, Stathis Papaioannou ha scritto: > It's worth quoting the first paragraph: > > "I?m ashamed of my country and terrified about the future. When Bush > took power in 2000, I was depressed for weeks, but I didn?t feel like I > do now, like a fourth-generation refugee in the United States?like > someone who happens to have been born here and will presumably continue > to live here, unless and until it starts to become unsafe for academics, > or Jews, or people who publicly criticize Trump, at which time I > guess we?ll pack up and go somewhere else (assuming there still is a > somewhere else). It is actually dangerous to be a Trump supporter in public. Try to do so and you could end beaten, robbed and maybe killed or raped. It is not a possibility: it happened and it happen even today. So, stop wining and be happy the 2nd Amendment was not abrogated before by Obama and Hillary supporters (like you?). The only fourth generations refugees are palestinians in various arab countries. Because these countries forbid them from requesting to be citizens. We know, for the leftist, it is always their way or the high-way. Then, please, take the high-way and go where ever you want and leave the Trump supporters alone. They want nothing from you, because you have nothing of value for them. They are just sick and tired to explited by leftists and then treated like bitches. Hit the Road Jack and came back no more. Mirco From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 17:35:51 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:35:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ok, so prove it In-Reply-To: <010101d23bcc$128021c0$37806540$@att.net> References: <010101d23bcc$128021c0$37806540$@att.net> Message-ID: Il 11/11/2016 04:31, spike ha scritto: > I can?t help obsessing over this, even though my own guy was trounced > 538 to zip. America should demand a recount rather than the silly > useless protests. Demand a recount, with everything out on the table, > everything, every machine result, cataloged by individual machine, every > district paper ballot count, every mail-in by district. We would be > able to see it if one machine here and there returned a funny-looking > result. It would be a statistician?s playground. Just 1 percent made > all that difference. It isn?t too late. They would need to count all the ballots in California and elsewhere and then the "win the popular vote" would go out of the window. They talk about popular vote, because they control the most popolous states and they win these states by default. But if the votes inside these state were counted directly to the presidential election, then probably a lot more voters would show up for the losing side and maybe this would change the election results. It is all about moving the goal post. If the most popolous states were republicans, the democrats would talk about popular vote, but would about proportional representation. BTW, if the votes counted directly to the election of the POTUS, the POTUS would have a greater legitimacy than the Congress or the Governors. And the federal government would have a say about how elections are held and votes counted. They would, then, have a say about ID card; a say about illegal voting and identification, and so on. From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 17:55:48 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:55:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump Message-ID: The real presidential election is on December 19 when the electoral college votes, and this link is to a petition for them to follow the will of the people and vote for Hillary Clinton, nearly 4 million people have signed it already: https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make- hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:10:02 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:10:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: ?> ? > I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social > Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to > Donald ? now President-elect ? Trump. It appears I was right. I was > not only right: I was spectacularly right... > ? It's not just the liberal left that demands political correctness; pundits must say the typical Trump supporter is a "low information voter" and not use the correct technical term, "dumb shits", because if they don't the conservative right will give them grief. Just look at all the trouble Hillary got into for using the word "deplorables", if she could have though of some politically correct ? euphemism ? she might be President-elect today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:10:57 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:10:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just stop, John. Please. This is happening, put on your big boy pants if you remember where they are, and do your best to grow up. On Nov 13, 2016 12:56 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > The real presidential election is on December 19 when > the electoral college votes, and this link is to a petition for them to > follow the will of the people and vote for Hillary Clinton, nearly 4 > million people have signed it already: > > https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electora > l-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19 > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 13 17:58:58 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 09:58:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005801d23dd7$9c4a1750$d4de45f0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump >? and this link is to a petition for them to follow the will of the people and vote for Hillary Clinton, nearly 4 million people have signed it already: https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19 John K Clark Where is the petition asking the Trump and Clinton delegates to vote for Johnson? This is our last chance to stop these two. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:13:20 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:13:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shoulda. Woulda. Coulda. Move on. I'm sure that nuclear annihilation you've been chickenlittlin' about will put us all out of your misery shortly. On Nov 13, 2016 1:10 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 3:20 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > ?> ? >> I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social >> Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to >> Donald ? now President-elect ? Trump. It appears I was right. I was >> not only right: I was spectacularly right... >> > > ? > It's not just the liberal left that demands political correctness; pundits > must say the typical Trump supporter is a "low information voter" and not > use the correct technical term, "dumb shits", because if they don't the > conservative right will give them grief. Just look at all the trouble > Hillary got into for using the word "deplorables", if she could have though > of some politically correct > ? > euphemism > ? > she might be President-elect today. > > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:18:01 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:18:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: <005801d23dd7$9c4a1750$d4de45f0$@att.net> References: <005801d23dd7$9c4a1750$d4de45f0$@att.net> Message-ID: As much as I would have preferred Gary, honoring the results of the election is the best bet for a peaceful transition (minus these ignoramuses protesting, destroying property, and hurting people). I put a very high probability of actual armed civil war if anything is done to overturn the election results. On Nov 13, 2016 1:13 PM, "spike" wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *John Clark > *Subject:* [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump > > > > >? and this link is to a petition for them to follow the will of the > people and vote for Hillary Clinton, nearly 4 million people have signed it > already: > > > > https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors- > electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19 > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > Where is the petition asking the Trump and Clinton delegates to vote for > Johnson? This is our last chance to stop these two. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:25:50 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:25:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > Just stop, John. > > ?No.? > Please. > ?No.? > ?> ? > This is happening, > > It certainly looks like it, ? ? and ? ? fascists ? all over the world are cheering. But I'm not. ? ? John K Clark? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:30:12 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:30:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: <005801d23dd7$9c4a1750$d4de45f0$@att.net> References: <005801d23dd7$9c4a1750$d4de45f0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:58 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > Where is the petition asking the Trump and Clinton delegates to vote for > Johnson? > > ?Start one Spike and I'll sign it. Anybody would be better than Trump. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:34:12 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:34:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone else find it humorous that the 'Last political post for a while' seems to have morphed into a never-ending thread? ;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:36:25 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:36:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You don't have to cheer, but I would hope you would drop the melodrama until you see how things turn out. I read your extropian stuff enthusiastically, and was hoping that you might stop this after the election. All you are accomplishing here is making yourself feel better, and pissing off people who are tired of it. On Nov 13, 2016 1:26 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:10 PM, Dylan Distasio > wrote: > >> ?> ? >> Just stop, John. >> >> ?No.? > >> Please. >> > ?No.? > >> ?> ? >> This is happening, >> >> It certainly looks like it, > ? ? > and > ? ? > fascists > ? all over the world are cheering. But I'm not. ? > > ? John K Clark? > > > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cryptaxe at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:37:43 2016 From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:37:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I understand your frustration, but do you think over ruling a democratic process would be better than the "fascism" or would you be committing your own atrocities at that point? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicoalcala at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:51:41 2016 From: nicoalcala at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Tmljb2zDoXMgQWxjYWzDoQ==?=) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:51:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I understand your frustration, but do you think over ruling a democratic > process would be better than the "fascism" or would you be committing your > own atrocities at that point? That's a really good question. Let's say the signs of something like what happened in Germany with Hitler were somehow clear. That there were at least a 50% chances of something like that happening again. What would be morally right to do? Act immorally against democratic principles to prevent it or let it happen and then try to solve it? One thing is interesting though. It's been a while (like a few decades) since society and politics were this agitated. Suddenly, the western world was kind of quiet and now again we are talking about civil wars, coups, presidents assassinations, nuclear wars and the likes. It seems almost unthinkable for my generation, but here we are, facing another tricky historic cycle. Again, I ask myself what's the moral thing to do. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:37 AM, CryptAxe wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- *Nicol?s Alcal? - *Storyhacker Extraordinaire * Nicolasalcala.com * * Futurelighthouse.com * * mobile:* +34616453784 * twitter: *@cosmonauta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 18:41:57 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:41:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, John Clark wrote: > > It certainly looks like it, > ? ? > and > ? ? > fascists > ? all over the world are cheering. But I'm not. ? > ### John, now you are implying that I am not just a dumb shit but also a fascist. You are laying it on thick, really. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:27:02 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:27:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't see where the imminent threat of nuclear annihilation is supposed to come from, when [at least according to their campaign rhetoric], the major distinguishing factor between the two side's foreign policy is that Trump wants rapprochement and normalization of relations with Russia, while Clinton wants a no-fly zone over Syria and boots on the ground in Eastern Europe to hold the line against alleged Red hordes. One of those foreign policies seems more likely than the other to result in blasted cities, but it isn't the one that just got elected. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Anyone else find it humorous that the 'Last political post for a while' > seems to have morphed into a never-ending thread? ;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:41:07 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:41:07 -0600 Subject: [ExI] trump still Message-ID: Here is what I have not seen out of this group, including me: "Buddhism teachers that anger is a form of ignorance; namely of other people's point of view." (NYT article by Lisa Barrett today) Somewhere around 47% of the voters went for Trump. Now they can't all be bone-headed morons. They can't all be for a silly wall or forced emigration or some of the other ridiculous things being proposed. They can't all think that all the industry jobs will be coming back. Most of them are not white supremacists. So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? Well, find out. What do they think? What do they want? Are there ways to give it to them, or are they just out of touch? Ditto every Trump voter. If we don't understand these Trump voters, if we just write them off as imbeciles, there is no way we can attract them to us in the future, starting with the elections in 2018. It's time to stop bitching and blaming and do our research. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 19:46:47 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:46:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a well reasoned argument that is the same as my own. You will have to ask John for his. On Nov 13, 2016 2:27 PM, "Darin Sunley" wrote: > I don't see where the imminent threat of nuclear annihilation is supposed > to come from, when [at least according to their campaign rhetoric], the > major distinguishing factor between the two side's foreign policy is that > Trump wants rapprochement and normalization of relations with Russia, while > Clinton wants a no-fly zone over Syria and boots on the ground in Eastern > Europe to hold the line against alleged Red hordes. > > One of those foreign policies seems more likely than the other to result > in blasted cities, but it isn't the one that just got elected. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> Anyone else find it humorous that the 'Last political post for a while' >> seems to have morphed into a never-ending thread? ;) >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books via: >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:44:06 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:44:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yup. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 20:43:01 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:43:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Il 13/11/2016 19:51, Nicol?s Alcal? ha scritto: > I understand your frustration, but do you think over ruling a > democratic process would be better than the "fascism" or would you > be committing your own atrocities at that point? > > > That's a really good question. Let's say the signs of something like > what happened in Germany with Hitler were somehow clear. That there were > at least a 50% chances of something like that happening again. > > What would be morally right to do? Act immorally against democratic > principles to prevent it or let it happen and then try to solve it? > > One thing is interesting though. It's been a while (like a few decades) > since society and politics were this agitated. Suddenly, the western > world was kind of quiet and now again we are talking about civil wars, > coups, presidents assassinations, nuclear wars and the likes. It seems > almost unthinkable for my generation, but here we are, facing another > tricky historic cycle. > > Again, I ask myself what's the moral thing to do. People sense the end of the system as it is. The status quo based on the welfare state is near its end, because there are no more way to pay for it. >From here, there is only the choice between accepting reality and solving the problems or not accepting reality and then allow reality to solve the problems itself. Some strata of the population has no way to keep their way of life. They can only accept change or die fighting the change. Like with slavery, the south had a lot of people unable and unwilling to accept the end of their life style. And they preferred to fight a war instead of accepting to change their life. And the war ended when they all were killed in battle or unable to continue to fight. The same is here: some groups are so invested in their way of life they can not contemplate any change and their leader prefer war to change. For now we are fortunate they majority of them is too weak willed to contemplate a real war and they are content to just throw a tantrum here and there. They have no gut to start a real war. From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:54:48 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:54:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Several women of my acquaintance held their noses and voted for Trump because a Trump presidency means multiple Republican Supreme Court picks, a conservative [and hopefully pro-life] Court a few years down the road, and eventually, at least an outside chance at overturning Roe v. Wade. The chances aren't spectacular, but they're better than nothing. To these people, an outside chance at ending what they see as institutionalized mass infanticide is worth almost anything, even voting for a Mad Men caricature who is otherwise a RINO. These people think abortion is really, really, really bad, and they haven't gone away just because they've been shouted down in the court of public opinion. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > Yup. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 20:57:25 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:57:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh come off it John. Even if Trump got deposed it's not like the people who voted for them, or their problems, are going to disappear. I voted for Hillary. But I'm definitely looking forward to less intervention in Syria. To the lessening of pointless Cold War animosity (Obama did it with Cuba. He also deported a shit ton of people.) In fact, I seem to recall Trump being a NYC Democrat. I know for sure that his Husband didn't sign the DOMA into law, with his approval. Or bomb Kosovo. And I don't remember him laughing about the torture and murder of a Libyan leader who was favored by most of his country except for the far-right Islamist militants we armed. Or committing perjury by lying about not knowing what the classified symbol in emails meant. Or conspiring with a moderator (DNC) that was supposed to be neutral to suppress the opposition. I don't believe Clinton gave a shit any more than Trump about anything but winning. And I think she fell for, along with half the country, an honestly brilliant strategy to make her think her opposition was way stupider than he was, while he stole the Rust Belt under her nose. This country is founded on revolution. And yeah, the point of the electoral college is a distrust of democracy. So go for it and try to convince the electors that now is the time to hit the crisis button and not elect Trump. But if that happens, I strongly suggest you arm yourself. To be honest, at least we might not get four years of the same shit that since Eisenhower we've been served and told it was foie gras. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 13 21:02:48 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:02:48 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Il 13/11/2016 19:41, Rafal Smigrodzki ha scritto: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:25 PM, John Clark > wrote: > > It certainly looks like it, > ? ? > and > ? ? > fascists > ? all over the world are cheering. But I'm not. ? > > > ### John, now you are implying that I am not just a dumb shit but also a > fascist. > > You are laying it on thick, really. I just fell on this interview on YouTube talking about the language of the loser after the election. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoBRckWwN4g They are all crazy in fear because they really believe they are at risk to be taken and brought in some camp where they will be re-educated or killed by an army of redneck moving down from the mountain and the country. And I think they believe it because it is their wet dream: the wish to close their opponents in cages. So they freak out believing their opponents are like them. On the other side, they know all the crimes they did when they believe to be winning or had power. So they fear it is time to pay the bill. They hate so much to pay their bills. From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:08:02 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:08:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 11:41 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? Well, find out. > What do they think? What do they want? Are there ways to give it to > them, or are they just out of touch? Ditto every Trump voter. > Thing is, they're not monolithic. There are those have been sidelined, displaced, made obsolete and unemployable (as they currently are) by technology and trade deals that make it easier to offshore their work (far more by technology, but they blame the trade deals). These could be handled by encouraging and assisting them into vocational education for new careers. There are those - on both sides - who want immigration reform. Nobody, democrat or republican, has been able to push through any serious changes once in office. It's so bad that even "deport them all, we're not accepting any new immigrants" would be seen as an improvement in their eyes. Far better alternatives are possible too, but those keep getting shut down and silenced in Congress when they are proposed. There are those who are outraged at American government repeatedly favoring the rich at the expense of the poor. They want income redistribution, so the top 1% don't have so much vastly more than the bottom 99%. They believed that Clinton would probably continue favoring the top 1% - and they were probably right. Unfortunately, they also keep believing the Republicans when they say they won't favor the top 1% - and the Republicans are more notorious for favoring them than the Democrats are. (Indeed, it can be argued that the straw that broke the camel's back was the rich trying to buy both parties.) The solutions are many and somewhat obvious; the challenge here is more to elect a Congress - not just (but as well as) a President - that really will stand up for the 99% instead of taking bribes as openly as possible. ...and unfortunately, then there really are the racists, the homophobes, the xenophobes, the misogynists, the Christian extremists, and others who seek "revenge" upon, or generally think that proper society is supposed to repress, a given segment of society. The very concept of "hate crime" is anathema to them, as they believe a proper citizen should live in hatred, and should have government support in doing so. These people need deprogramming on a mass scale; as they are now, they are mostly unable to understand other points of view on this subject. This group is far from a majority; unfortunately they tend to be the loudest, and they now think they are in power. Many believe they are, will be once Trump is in office, or should be above the law when it comes to their expressions of hate - and every time they are not fully prosecuted for their crimes, they take that as further confirmation bias. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:14:25 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:14:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Darin Sunley wrote: > To these people, an outside chance at ending what they see as > institutionalized mass infanticide is worth almost anything, even voting > for a Mad Men caricature who is otherwise a RINO. > > These people think abortion is really, really, really bad, and they > haven't gone away just because they've been shouted down in the court of > public opinion. > This is a good example of what I meant by "need deprogramming". Much of their outrage is based on flat-out lies that they believe, for example the claim that Planned Parenthood was encouraging abortions so as to sell fetal tissue. Even when (as with that claim) it is debunked and disproven in court, these people either never hear of it or refuse to believe the truth. I would almost wonder if we have evidence now that lying to the American people - when it is provably false, not merely unpopular but not disprovable beliefs - can, at certain levels, be a public hazard the same way shouting fire in a crowded theater is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:18:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:18:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:37 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > ?> ? > I understand your frustration, but do you think over ruling a democratic > process > > ?The electoral college is the most undemocratic part of the entire US constitution, Hillary Clinton got at least 2 million more votes than Trump, and when all the votes are counted probably a good deal more. It wouldn't be illegal for an elector to vote according to his conscience. And it certainly wouldn't be undemocratic! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:29:39 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:29:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 November 2016 at 21:18, John Clark wrote: > The electoral college is the most undemocratic part of the entire US > constitution, Hillary Clinton got at least 2 million more votes than Trump, > and when all the votes are counted probably a good deal more. It wouldn't be > illegal for an elector to vote according to his conscience. And it certainly > wouldn't be undemocratic! > The USA is a representative republic, not a democracy. The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are going to be run. BillK From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:37:01 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:37:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you! Apparently close to half the country needs a high school civics lesson. I thank my lucky stars daily we are not a direct democracy. It's a terrible idea. The EC while not perfect is way better than the alternatives. On Nov 13, 2016 4:30 PM, "BillK" wrote: > On 13 November 2016 at 21:18, John Clark wrote: > > The electoral college is the most undemocratic part of the entire US > > constitution, Hillary Clinton got at least 2 million more votes than > Trump, > > and when all the votes are counted probably a good deal more. It > wouldn't be > > illegal for an elector to vote according to his conscience. And it > certainly > > wouldn't be undemocratic! > > > > > The USA is a representative republic, not a democracy. > > The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York > (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are > going to be run. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:39:50 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:39:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Planned Parenthood encouraging and profiting from abortions is, to these people, the cartoonish supervillian icing on the evil cake, but their outrage is certainly not restricted to that. These people really sincerely believe that the simple widespread (thousands or hundreds of thousands per year) practice of elective abortions, for /any/ reason other than an immediate, urgent, clear and present danger to the life of the mother, is really, really, really bad. Like, nuclear war bad, only without the property damage. If you don't understand that about these people, any outreach is unlikely to be effective. And as for "they believe a proper citizen should live in hatred, and should have government support in doing so", there's a lot of that on both sides of the aisle. "To vote for a racist monster is to be a racist monster yourself, and to therefore deserve violent retribution", and so on. No less than the worst Christian fundamentalists, the worst Progressive fundamentalists define themselves by what they hate, and the level of violence they are prepared to wield against what they hate. But I note that the "Obama is the antichrist and is going to put us all in FEMA concentration camps" folks have set a lot fewer cars and storefronts on fire than the "Trump is Hitler" people out rioting as we speak. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Darin Sunley wrote: > >> To these people, an outside chance at ending what they see as >> institutionalized mass infanticide is worth almost anything, even voting >> for a Mad Men caricature who is otherwise a RINO. >> >> These people think abortion is really, really, really bad, and they >> haven't gone away just because they've been shouted down in the court of >> public opinion. >> > > This is a good example of what I meant by "need deprogramming". Much of > their outrage is based on flat-out lies that they believe, for example the > claim that Planned Parenthood was encouraging abortions so as to sell fetal > tissue. Even when (as with that claim) it is debunked and disproven in > court, these people either never hear of it or refuse to believe the truth. > > I would almost wonder if we have evidence now that lying to the American > people - when it is provably false, not merely unpopular but not > disprovable beliefs - can, at certain levels, be a public hazard the same > way shouting fire in a crowded theater is. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:59:45 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:59:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > You don't have to cheer, > > ? Nobody has to cheer but some who claim to be anti-government ? are, ? even ? some who ? use Guy Fawkes ? as a avatar ? seem to want to cheer a man who wants to use the government to stop newspapers and websites from saying things he doesn't like, and who intends to have the government use force to prevent you from buying things if they were made in places he doesn't approve of, and use that same oppressive government to prevent you from hiring anybody you want to make things you want to sell. And a man who wants to force companies to put back doors in the ?ir? software so the government can get in whenever they want. And a man why will use government to punish women for having an abortion. ?And have the government torture people. And order the military to commit war crimes. ? And yet for reason nobody can coherently articulate people who like to think of themselves as anti-government types are cheering this man ? on! Is this libertarian, is this anti government ?, is this moral? ? I said months ago that I didn't get it and I still don't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 22:03:55 2016 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:03:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Let's start from a very general point of view: saying that 47 % or even 50 % of the population in a country is below average intelligence is not an insult but actually a mathematical fact given how intelligence is measured (based on an assumed Gaussian distribution of IQ). Are all the Trump voters on the left of the bell curve? I think a lot of them are. Now Trump was also helped by a lot of intelligent people in particular millennials that voted thirds parties but I would not be surprised if many of them actually voted Trump as a protest vote. But intelligence is one thing, ignorance is another. Yes anger is ignorance but a lot of the Trump vote was based on anger and therefore ignorance. We may be angry at them as people but the Trump supporters were ignorant about facts and complex relationship that they fail to understand. Others here mentioned automation of work and that is one of the most relevant issues for this group. People are angry at side effects of a phenomenon that could be actually the best thing that could happen for all humankind, being freed from meaningless jobs but for this phenomenon to be a positive thing we need strong social structures that can redistribute the benefits of automation, that right now are benefiting mostly the 1 %, to the entire population. There is no other way to do it really. We need a basic income and Trump would not help with that. The right would not help with that. Libertarian would not help with that. Only a strong social democratic system, in particular a system that is knowledgeable and aware of exponential technology trends could implement policies that would have most of the population support. But in the US social democracy has been a bad word until recently. But even social democracy is not good enough as a solution unless it has a vision about our accelerating technology future. We need new ideas injected in the political discourse. This could be an opportunity for democratic Transhumanism to bring these ideas to the people in particular when Trump craziness and deep ignorance of both the past and the future would show the failure of conservatism as a last resort effort in bringing the old good days back (that will not come back and they were not good at all in the first place) as a way to stop the unavoidable process of exponential acceleration of technology that can bring utopia or dystopia according to which social policies we adopt. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Here is what I have not seen out of this group, including me: > > "Buddhism teachers that anger is a form of ignorance; namely of other > people's point of view." (NYT article by Lisa Barrett today) > Somewhere around 47% of the voters went for Trump. Now they can't all be > bone-headed morons. They can't all be for a silly wall or forced > emigration or some of the other ridiculous things being proposed. They > can't all think that all the industry jobs will be coming back. Most of > them are not white supremacists. > > So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? Well, find out. > What do they think? What do they want? Are there ways to give it to > them, or are they just out of touch? Ditto every Trump voter. > > If we don't understand these Trump voters, if we just write them off as > imbeciles, there is no way we can attract them to us in the future, > starting with the elections in 2018. > > It's time to stop bitching and blaming and do our research. > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 22:42:00 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:42:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:29 PM, BillK wrote: ?> ? > The USA is a representative republic, ?All electors have an equal vote in the electoral college, so if it's representative why does a Wyoming elector represent 177,556 people but a ?California elector represent 705,455 people? ?Why is a Wyoming person worth 4 times as much as a California person? ?If the USA is a representative republic ? then things should represent without distortion. ? ?> ? > The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York > (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are > going to be run. > ?If nobody is living in those other 47 states then? California, Texas and New York ? should indeed be calling the shots. Why should empty land in Wyoming get a vote? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 22:53:28 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:53:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- I've read your extropian related posts. You strike me as very intelligent, which leads me to the conclusion that you are suffering from one of the worst cases of cognitive dissonance I have ever come across. I'm sure you already know the answer in regard to Wyoming but will not acknowledge it, so I'm not going to even bother answering. Scott Adams does a good job of summing up what you are suffering from right now. I'm sure pointing this out won't help break through the bubble though: This brings me to the anti-Trump protests. The protesters look as though they are protesting Trump, but they are not. They are locked in an imaginary world and battling their own hallucinations of the future. Here?s the setup that triggered them. 1. They believe they are smart and well-informed. 2. Their good judgement told them Trump is OBVIOUSLY the next Hitler, or something similarly bad. 3. Half of the voters of the United States ? including a lot of smart people ? voted Trump into office anyway. Those ?facts? can?t be reconciled in the minds of the anti-Trumpers. Mentally, something has to give. That?s where cognitive dissonance comes in. There are two ways for an anti-Trumper to interpret that reality. One option is to accept that if half the public doesn?t see Trump as a dangerous monster, perhaps he isn?t. But that would conflict with a person?s self-image as being smart and well-informed in the first place. When you violate a person?s self-image, it triggers cognitive dissonance to explain-away the discrepancy. So how do you explain-away Trump?s election if you think you are smart and you think you are well-informed and you think Trump is OBVIOUSLY a monster? You solve for that incongruity by hallucinating ? literally ? that Trump supporters KNOW Trump is a monster and they PREFER the monster. In this hallucination, the KKK is not a nutty fringe group but rather a symbol of how all Trump supporters must feel. (They don?t. Not even close.) In a rational world it would be obvious that Trump supporters include lots of brilliant and well-informed people. That fact ? as obvious as it would seem ? is invisible to the folks who can?t even imagine a world in which their powers of perception could be so wrong. To reconcile their world, they have to imagine all Trump supporters as defective in some moral or cognitive way, or both. As I often tell you, we all live in our own movies inside our heads. Humans did not evolve with the capability to understand their reality because it was not important to survival. Any illusion that keeps us alive long enough to procreate is good enough. That?s why the protestors live in a movie in which they are fighting against a monster called Trump and you live in a movie where you got the president you wanted for the changes you prefer. Same planet, different realities. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 5:42 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:29 PM, BillK wrote: > > ?> ? >> The USA is a representative republic, > > > ?All electors have an equal vote in the electoral college, so if it's > representative why does a Wyoming elector represent 177,556 people but a > ?California elector represent 705,455 people? > > ?Why is a Wyoming person worth 4 times as much as a California person? ?If > the USA > is a representative republic > ? then things should represent without distortion. ? > > ?> ? >> The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York >> (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are >> going to be run. >> > > ?If nobody is living in those other 47 states then? > California, Texas and New York > ? should indeed be calling the shots. Why should empty land in Wyoming get > a vote? > > John K Clark? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cryptaxe at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:25:38 2016 From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:25:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of it but Trump won the popular vote? On Nov 13, 2016 1:19 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:37 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > >> ?> ? >> I understand your frustration, but do you think over ruling a democratic >> process >> >> ?The electoral college is the most undemocratic part of the entire US > constitution, Hillary Clinton got at least 2 million more votes than Trump, > and when all the votes are counted probably a good deal more. It wouldn't > be illegal for an elector to vote according to his conscience. And it > certainly wouldn't be undemocratic! > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cryptaxe at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 21:34:37 2016 From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:34:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York > (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are > going to be run. > > BillK That's a good point, there may be benefits to the Electoral College which I didn't give credit to in my last response. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:07:53 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:07:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would really suggest everyone suggesting throwing out the EC do some actual reading on it from both a historical perspective and what it represents today. I would also point out that it cannot be gotten rid of without a Constitutional amendment: ARTICLE II, SECTION 1, CLAUSE 3: The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves. And they shall make a List of all the Persons voted for, and of the Number of Votes for each; which List they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the Seat of the Government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate. The President of the Senate shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted. The Person having the greatest Number of Votes shall be the President, if such Number be a Majority of the whole Number of Electors appointed; and if there be more than one who have such Majority, and have an equal Number of Votes, then the House of Representatives shall immediately chuse by Ballot one of them for President; and if no Person have a Majority, then from the five highest on the List the said House shall in like Manner chuse the President. But in chusing the President, the Votes shall be taken by States, the Representation from each State having one Vote; A quorum for this purpose shall consist of a Member or Members from two thirds of the States, and a Majority of all the States shall be necessary to a Choice. In every Case, after the Choice of the President, the Person having the greatest Number of Votes of the Electors shall be the Vice President. But if there should remain two or more who have equal Votes, the Senate shall chuse from them by Ballot the Vice President. In the 12th Amendment the Electoral College was tweaked, a necessity made apparent with the rise of political parties. The men of the day had four elections under the original design, and had learned what the shortcomings of the original design of the Electoral College were. The new additional rules were instituted to make ties less likely (as we saw in the Election of 1800) and provide that if there is no majority of electoral votes for President the House of Representatives is tasked with choosing the President. The choice of Vice President would devolve to the Senate. The 12th Amendment also requires the President and Vice President to be chosen by separate votes (Vice President was awarded to the second place winner prior to the ratification of the 12th Amendment in 1804). The remainder of the process at that point remained unchanged. The hope was that political collusion and party loyalties would be diminished in the election of the President. The US is not a pure democracy, and was never intended as one. It is unlikely the original Constitution would have been ratified without state protections, and before the centralization of Federal power that has continued to consolidate over the decades, states rights were actually important, and you could vote with your feet if you didn't like them. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:34 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > > > The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York > > (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are > > going to be run. > > > > BillK > > That's a good point, there may be benefits to the Electoral College which > I didn't give credit to in my last response. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:13:04 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:13:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? > ### We can safely assume that every single POTUS in history did at some point touch female genitals, unless he was gay, and then he handled male genitals. And almost every one of them at some point or other boasted to their friends about such achievements, too, being status-conscious alpha males. The only new item is that the President-elect is AFAIK the first one to have boasted to this effect on videotape. You could rather ask, how many women and men were swayed to vote for him when the videotape showed him to be just like all of us, human. And how many were turned off by the brazen hypocrisy of the Mrs Grundy media, who tried to use the videotape to deflect attention from Hillary's crimes. Rafa? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:20:10 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:20:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would add that many women who are not attracted to low energy beta males for various reasons (typically their inability to catch an alpha one) are willing to overlook the type of language Trump used on the tape because it is a dog whistle for those happy to associate with an alpha male. Most of the women feigning moral outrage and indignation over what was on that tape lack the ability to attract an alpha and are more than happy to keep a stable of low energy betas whispering sweet SJW nothings in their ears. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? >> > > ### We can safely assume that every single POTUS in history did at some > point touch female genitals, unless he was gay, and then he handled male > genitals. And almost every one of them at some point or other boasted to > their friends about such achievements, too, being status-conscious alpha > males. The only new item is that the President-elect is AFAIK the first one > to have boasted to this effect on videotape. > > You could rather ask, how many women and men were swayed to vote for him > when the videotape showed him to be just like all of us, human. And how > many were turned off by the brazen hypocrisy of the Mrs Grundy media, who > tried to use the videotape to deflect attention from Hillary's crimes. > > Rafa? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:21:01 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:21:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To paraphrase a poker phrase, if you don't know who the low energy beta is at the table, it's probably you. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > I would add that many women who are not attracted to low energy beta males > for various reasons (typically their inability to catch an alpha one) are > willing to overlook the type of language Trump used on the tape because it > is a dog whistle for those happy to associate with an alpha male. Most of > the women feigning moral outrage and indignation over what was on that tape > lack the ability to attract an alpha and are more than happy to keep a > stable of low energy betas whispering sweet SJW nothings in their ears. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> So why did any woman vote for a crotch-grabber? >>> >> >> ### We can safely assume that every single POTUS in history did at some >> point touch female genitals, unless he was gay, and then he handled male >> genitals. And almost every one of them at some point or other boasted to >> their friends about such achievements, too, being status-conscious alpha >> males. The only new item is that the President-elect is AFAIK the first one >> to have boasted to this effect on videotape. >> >> You could rather ask, how many women and men were swayed to vote for him >> when the videotape showed him to be just like all of us, human. And how >> many were turned off by the brazen hypocrisy of the Mrs Grundy media, who >> tried to use the videotape to deflect attention from Hillary's crimes. >> >> Rafa? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 23:35:16 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:35:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Darin Sunley wrote: ?> ? > I don't see where the imminent threat of nuclear annihilation is supposed > to come from, > Saudi Arabia ? , South Korea, Japan and Taiwan ? with a H-bombs for starters. And without NATO a dozen countries in eastern Europe will feel they must have thermonuclear weapons to protect themselves from the tyranny of Trump's like minded dictator Vladimir Putin. > ?> ? > according to their campaign rhetoric > ?Like "I love war" and "I know more about Isis than the Generals do". The fact that the closest Trump has ever come to combat himself is being in a military school marching band when he was a kid does not decrease my unease. ? > ?> ? > the major distinguishing factor between the two side's foreign policy is > that Trump wants rapprochement and normalization of relations with Russia, > ?And Trump wants a escalation in tensions with China, a much more important country than Russia.? Stalin normalized relations with Hitler and the result was a invasion of Poland and the start of World War 2. > ?> ? > while Clinton wants a no-fly zone over Syria > ?And if that could be accomplished through negotiations with Russia as Clinton wanted that would be wonderful. > ?> ? > and boots on the ground in Eastern Europe to hold the line against alleged > Red hordes. > ?Those boots on the ground have held the peace in Europe for 70 years, Trump wants boots on the ground in Libya where they'd have to fight from day one. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:15:49 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:15:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > > ?>? > I'm sure you already know the answer in regard to Wyoming but will not > acknowledge it, so I'm not going to even bother answering. > ?Yes I know the answer you would give, and I'm sure you already know the rebuttal I would give to the answer you didn't give, so I'm not going to even bother ?doing so. > ?> ? > So how do you explain-away Trump?s election > > ?I can easily explain why voters are angry, the vast and accelerating gap between the rich and the poor, but I can't explain why they think lowering taxes on the rich and starting trade wars (if not real wars) will help. I'm clueless, I've been asking members of this list for months to explain Trump's cult of personality to me, but the only answer I ever got is a ignorant thin-skinned fascist with conflicts of interests up the wazoo is better than a bad E-mail server. There are plenty of people around here who think Trump is wonderful, so ask one of them how he got elected not me, I find the man loathsome. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:25:05 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:25:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm sure if you actually took the time to try to understand what has unfolded and why, that you would find many here find the MAN loathsome, but have decided that he was MUCH less loathsome than HRC. It goes way beyond her email server, and if you would like to claim none of that matters, you will continue to be baffled as to why this has happened. You will find many more in the larger voting pool that decided it was time to give the existing system a swift kick in the nuts and make their voices heard. Whether this actually translates into anything meaningful remains to be seen, but for many of them, they have made their voices heard either way. I'm happy that HRC was not elected for many, many reasons, but one of them is that my calculated probabilities of nuclear war went down with the alternative. Laugh, sneer, call me a complete dumbass, it does not matter to me. I'm just trying to help you understand how this happened, how people like Peter Thiel backed him, and why many people who would prefer to be left to their own devices backed anyone other than HRC. It's unnecessary to rehash the whole rust belt / economics stuff, I'm just giving you my two cents on why so many people who consider themselves libertarians, anarchocapitalists, etc. find this whole turn of events a breath of fresh air, and very amusing. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:15 PM, John Clark wrote: > > ?There are plenty of people around here who think Trump is wonderful, so > ask one of them how he got elected not me, I find the man loathsome. > > John K Clark > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:36:09 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:36:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > ?> ? > I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. > Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably > happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. > > I would love to see the system changed but that would require a constitutional amendment and that would take years, however that doesn't need to happen before December 19, under the system we have right now electors are free to vote for whoever they want. It would be great if for the first time in its history the electoral college actually did something useful. Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of it > but Trump won the popular vote? Certainly not, although in those circumstances I couldn't claim it would be illegal under our crazy system for the electors to vote for Trump instead of Clinton, immoral yes, insane yes, but not illegal. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:38:21 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:38:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- Why don't you take a few moments to watch the 60 minutes interview going on right now. I don't expect it to change your opinion, but you might sleep slightly better tonight. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:36 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > >> ?> ? >> I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. >> Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably >> happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. >> >> I would love to see the system changed but that would require a > constitutional amendment and that would take years, however that doesn't > need to happen before December 19, under the system we have right now > electors are free to vote for whoever they want. It would be great if for > the first time in its history the electoral college actually did something > useful. > > Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of >> it but Trump won the popular vote? > > > Certainly not, although in those circumstances I couldn't claim it would > be illegal under our crazy system for the electors to vote for Trump > instead of Clinton, immoral yes, insane yes, but not illegal. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:39:49 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:39:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just to be clear, I am speaking to demeanor, and self awareness, nothing more, and that is also with a caveat that I have not heard the entire thing yet. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:38 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > John- > > Why don't you take a few moments to watch the 60 minutes interview going > on right now. I don't expect it to change your opinion, but you might > sleep slightly better tonight. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:36 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, CryptAxe wrote: >> >>> ?> ? >>> I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. >>> Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably >>> happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. >>> >>> I would love to see the system changed but that would require a >> constitutional amendment and that would take years, however that doesn't >> need to happen before December 19, under the system we have right now >> electors are free to vote for whoever they want. It would be great if for >> the first time in its history the electoral college actually did something >> useful. >> >> Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of >>> it but Trump won the popular vote? >> >> >> Certainly not, although in those circumstances I couldn't claim it would >> be illegal under our crazy system for the electors to vote for Trump >> instead of Clinton, immoral yes, insane yes, but not illegal. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:55:14 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:55:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't take this stuff seriously because I'm absolutely sure that if Trump barely won the popular vote but lost the electoral vote, John would be praising the Electoral college. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 00:56:58 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:56:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well of course he would. I continue to try to get through to him, but all I can do is try. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:55 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: > I can't take this stuff seriously because I'm absolutely sure that if > Trump barely won the popular vote but lost the electoral vote, John would > be praising the Electoral college. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 01:19:08 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:19:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] trump still In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 2:41 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > Somewhere around 47% of the voters went for Trump. Now they can't all be > bone-headed morons. > ?Why not? In 1932 36.8% of the voters went for Hitler, millions and millions of people, and I think they were all bone-headed morons.? ?Yes I've long observed that when some people become angry and frustrated they start to behave ?stupidly, I understand that, but my understanding doesn't make them one bit less stupid. ?> ? > If we don't understand these Trump voters, if we just write them off as > imbeciles, > ? > there is no way we can attract them to us in the future, starting with the > elections in 2018. > ?There will probably be elections in 2018, I'm not so sure about 2020.? ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 14 03:55:38 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:55:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] suggested design for self-driving car Message-ID: <002c01d23e2a$f6993530$e3cb9f90$@att.net> This would be the thing, ja? Start with this design, whack off that silly useless Aardvark nose, keep everything aft of the seat: https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2016/11/10/pink-panthermobi le These things will sell like hotcakes if engineers can make them fun and comfortable. You don't even need much of an engine really. Any modest four-banger will do, turned sideways and driving the front wheels, with a really sincere muffler (pay the weight penalty for a lot of quiet) in order to make a great sound system in there. I have a better sound system in my car than I do in my house. If not better, at least I have more time to listen to my CDs with fewer distractions than I do at home. (Ja I know: CDs! spike you primitive savage!) If we had self-drivers, we could make something like the Pleasure Capsule, great sound system, computer screen, that sorta thing, voice command to the car, audio feedback with location info if you want it. Think about it: automotive design hasn't really changed much in the last couple decades. Self-drivers open up a whole nuther pile of fun problems and opportunities. I am already thinking of the edges of the envelope: the lowest cost, the highest luxury, forget highest speed (self drivers aren't for the impatient) the design best suited for people with special medical needs (with a toilet in there for instance) or a design with radiation shielding for those anticipating nuclear warfare or the best design for lots of kids, and so on. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 11:10:46 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:10:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > I continue to try to get through to him, but all I can do is try. No, another alternative is to give up or at least refuse to continue beating the dead horses on this list. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:22:24 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:22:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > ?> ? > I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. > Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably > happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. > > I would love to see the system changed but that would require a constitutional amendment and that would take years, however that doesn't need to happen before December 19, under the system we have right now electors are free to vote for whoever they want. It would be great if for the first time in its history the electoral college actually did something useful. Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of it > but Trump won the popular vote? Certainly not, although in those circumstances I couldn't claim it would be illegal under our crazy system for the electors to vote for Trump instead of Clinton, immoral yes, insane yes, but not illegal. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:25:26 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:25:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > ?> ? > You don't have to cheer, > > ? Nobody has to cheer but some who claim to be anti-government ? are, ? even ? some who ? use Guy Fawkes ? as a avatar ? seem to want to cheer a man who wants to use the government to stop newspapers and websites from saying things he doesn't like, and who intends to have the government use force to prevent you from buying things if they were made in places he doesn't approve of, and use that same oppressive government to prevent you from hiring anybody you want to make things you want to sell. And a man who wants to force companies to put back doors in the ?ir? software so the government can get in whenever they want. And a man why will use government to punish women for having an abortion. ?And have the government torture people. And order the military to commit war crimes. ? And yet for reason nobody can coherently articulate people who like to think of themselves as anti-government types are cheering this man ? on! Is this libertarian, is this anti government ?, is this moral? ? I said months ago that I didn't get it and I still don't. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:26:51 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:26:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:29 PM, BillK wrote: ?> ? > The USA is a representative republic, ?All electors have an equal vote in the electoral college, so if it's representative why does a Wyoming elector represent 177,556 people but a ?California elector represent 705,455 people? ?Why is a Wyoming person worth 4 times as much as a California person? ?If the USA is a representative republic ? then things should represent without distortion. ? ?> ? > The electoral college is there to stop California, Texas and New York > (the most populous states) telling the other 47 states how they are > going to be run. > ?If nobody is living in those other 47 states then? California, Texas and New York ? should indeed be calling the shots. Why should empty land in Wyoming get a vote? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:30:24 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:30:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John- I am really going to do my best to make this my last word on the subject, although it is probably unlikely. Give us a break with your sanctimonious moralizing. I didn't get the memo that you were appointed the keeper of the moral code. Did you see a burning bush or something? I can promise with 99.9% certainty the EC is not going to go against the will of their states to elect your warmonger (talk about morality), but if they do, I hope you're well armed for the aftermath, as the side that won is the one with all the guns. I'll ask one last time, what on Earth are you trying to accomplish with this nonsense? I can't speak for Spike, but I'm pretty sure everyone else on this list is sick of watching you piss into the wind. You're experiencing the same cognitive dissonance that the religious wingnuts you despise so much do. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:22 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 4:25 PM, CryptAxe wrote: > >> ?> ? >> I agree with everything you have to say about the Electoral College. >> Unfortunately it is the system in place and removing it should probably >> happen before the election and not after the results have been found out. >> >> I would love to see the system changed but that would require a > constitutional amendment and that would take years, however that doesn't > need to happen before December 19, under the system we have right now > electors are free to vote for whoever they want. It would be great if for > the first time in its history the electoral college actually did something > useful. > > Would you be against the college so vehemently if Clinton won because of >> it but Trump won the popular vote? > > > Certainly not, although in those circumstances I couldn't claim it would > be illegal under our crazy system for the electors to vote for Trump > instead of Clinton, immoral yes, insane yes, but not illegal. > > John K Clark > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:57:58 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 09:57:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:30 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote: ?> ? > Give us a break > ?No.? ?? ?> ? > I can promise with 99.9% certainty the EC is not going to go against the > will of their states > I agree?, but a .1% chance is better than a 0% chance, and that's why I signed the petition. > ?> ? > I'm pretty sure everyone else on this list is sick of watching you piss > into the wind. > ?If so then this list has changed radically since I first joined in 1993, back then in addition to being ? ?pro-science and pro-technology virtually everybody was anti-government ?(especially anti-government torture) anti-censorship and pro-free markets, everything that Donald Trump is not. Back then everybody on the list was also a (small l) libertarian, and I'll tell you one thing, ?it takes ?more than a Guy Fawkes ? avatar to be a libertarian.? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 15:04:22 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 10:04:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Guess that wasn't my last word...Please don't lecture me on what it takes to be a libertarian; I didn't realize the burning bush had given you control of who is allowed into that club in addition to appointing your our morality police. Are you sure you're not secretly pining for organized religion, I'm recognizing all the same holier-than-thou smugness in your retorts. I can tell you what it doesn't take to be a libertarian...voting for a candidate who has already left a trail of corruption and death in her wake. We know exactly what we would have gotten with her. It's not my fault the Dems put up an unelectable candidate. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:57 AM, John Clark wrote: > and I'll tell you one thing, > > ?it takes ?more than a > Guy Fawkes > ? avatar to be a libertarian.? > > > John K Clark > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 14 15:47:24 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 07:47:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010301d23e8e$6564aae0$302e00a0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio Subject: Re: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump John- >?what on Earth are you trying to ?? I can't speak for Spike? I can?t speak for spike either! Eh? retract, I can. Reminder of the old days (oy vey I am doing that a lot, sheesh.) John has been around a long time, so he remembers. ExI began as a political/technology site, the libertarian branch of the transhumanist movement. We used to talk a lot about politics, more than we do now. So I hafta call this fair game, even if it makes us weary at times. All in good fun, ja? I canceled the order for my bomb shelter materials (this is a good thing) but it isn?t only yanks involved in this distasteful drama. We here can all see the significance of the dramatic events that have transpired. Talking is still OK. Not reading and not responding is still OK. Posting other cool interesting stuff is welcome. Now is a GREAT time for cool interesting stuff, ja? Play ball! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:05:44 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:05:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: <010301d23e8e$6564aae0$302e00a0$@att.net> References: <010301d23e8e$6564aae0$302e00a0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 10:47 AM, spike wrote: > > > All in good fun, ja? > > > Yes, of course, at least from my perspective. > Now is a GREAT time for cool interesting stuff, ja? > > > Without question! > Play ball! > > I'll try to contribute more on the cool stuff side. Apologies that what little I have contributed here is replying to John's political stuff... > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:19:18 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:19:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote: ?> ? > don't lecture me on what it takes to be a libertarian > ?No.? ?Somebody has to.? > ?> ? > Are you sure you're not secretly pining for organized religion > ?Yes.? > ?> ? > I'm recognizing all the same holier-than-thou smugness in your retorts. > ?Well it's just a fact, I am more libertarian than thou.? ? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:23:15 2016 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:23:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, voting for HRC and the establishment is very libertarian of you. I guess you finally got me. On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:19 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM, Dylan Distasio > wrote: > > >> ?Well it's just a fact, I am more libertarian than thou.? > > ? > > John K Clark > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:26:52 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:26:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Trump said he still wants to abolish the electoral college. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:37:29 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:37:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote: ?> ? > voting for HRC and the establishment is very libertarian of you. > ?Yes. Voting for anti-torture, anti-war crimes, pro-free markets and pro-free speech ?is much more libertarian than voting for the opposite. > ?> ? > I guess you finally got me. > ?Yes, I guess so. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 16:44:46 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:44:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C473A0F-72F8-455B-883B-8803AA14FCC7@gmail.com> "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." - Winston Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 14 16:58:38 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:58:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a001d23e98$58cbad60$0a630820$@att.net> Being a supporter of any candidate without the middle name Rodham around my neighborhood makes one feel isolated, lonely. This is a photograph of my family taken after the election: The local high school principal went to a student walkout Wednesday, got on a bullhorn and suggested having sexual relations with the president-elect: http://www.mercurynews.com/2016/11/10/breaking-news-milpitas-high-principal-leave-for-ant-trump-profanity-student-walkout/ The comment was met with wild enthusiasm. Word on the street is that he will probably skate: https://www.change.org/p/milpitas-unified-school-district-we-support-mr-morales-urge-musd-to-keep-phil-morales-as-milpitas-high-school-s-principal Plans are being made for emergency evacuation of the three Johnson supporters shown above and approximately five scattered Trump supporters attending the local high school. Safety first! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 32627 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 18:13:15 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:13:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A scandal factory waiting to open Message-ID: If you think it was a bad idea for Hillary to have a private email server you ain't seen nothing yet. Donald Trump has decided to let his sons Uday and Qusay, I mean Eric and Donald, run his entire business empire while he is president. Donald even put his sons on the transition team that will pick the people that run the departments that regulate the businesses the Trumps are in. I predict that cozy arrangement will soon be up and running and start cranking out scandals like sausages. Clinton Foundation scandals my ass! http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/13/news/donald-trump-business-conflicts/ John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Nov 14 20:51:39 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:51:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: <00a001d23e98$58cbad60$0a630820$@att.net> References: <00a001d23e98$58cbad60$0a630820$@att.net> Message-ID: <36e4440b-0349-9acf-a385-5c97d898c5c3@libero.it> Il 14/11/2016 17:58, spike ha scritto: > Being a supporter of any candidate without the middle name Rodham around > my neighborhood makes one feel isolated, lonely. > This is a photograph of my family taken after the election: Threads like these remember me why I'm for Seasteading and Space Colonization. To get away from holier-than-thou hypocrites. I also know the worst things these holier-than-thou hypocrites can get is to be left at their own devices, in a community formed only by themselves. I'm pretty sure, if we left them alone on Earth, Professor Darwin would take care of them pretty fast. -- From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Nov 14 21:09:42 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 22:09:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19b9c749-cceb-58da-7d27-5af38d980ba4@libero.it> Il 14/11/2016 15:26, John Clark ha scritto: > ?If nobody is living in those other 47 states then? > California, Texas and New York > ? should indeed be calling the shots. Why should empty land in Wyoming > get a vote? Because without these places and the people living there would start clamoring first and fighting later for independance. Do you think the larger state would be able to field enough men to occupy Alaska? Montana? BTW, if you had a proportional voting like in Italy, you would have the same type of corruption like in Italy (or maybe Argentina). I bet you would loathe that. With proportional voting you would have a party rapresenting the black community, another the latinos, another the white rednecks, another the white financers in the big cities like NY, LA and so on. You would have the party governing importing people and giving them citzenship in 5 years like in the UK so they can vote in the next election for the politicians giving htem welfare. Give or take 20 years and you would have a civil war and seceding states. And God forbid the interests of the three states start to go one against the other. A complete lockdown. Maybe with the politicians in the smaller states playing the balance needle role and deciding what side get the majority (and getting favors and kickback for that). MIrco From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 14 21:39:26 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:39:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] wildlife vote Message-ID: <000601d23ebf$930d8c60$b928a520$@att.net> >.are the people of Wyoming really 3.5 times smarter than the people of New Jersey?... The US Electoral College system introduces weirdness in elections but here's an alternate take on it. The poster child example of a state which shouldn't be given 3 electoral votes is Wyoming, since most of it is open range, very few citizens, which is why you don't know and probably never even met anyone who grew up there. It has very little evidence of humanity, but the few who are there get a disproportionately large representation. Compare with densely populated developed states, such as New Jersey. The wildlife habitat is limited. But nearly everything living in Wyoming is wild. So. we can think of Wyoming delegates as representing wildlife. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 22:05:06 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:05:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] wildlife vote In-Reply-To: <000601d23ebf$930d8c60$b928a520$@att.net> References: <000601d23ebf$930d8c60$b928a520$@att.net> Message-ID: >?are the people of Wyoming really 3.5 times smarter than the people of New Jersey?... Every time I hear the word "smarter" snuck into these sorts of arguments, it completely wrecks for me whatever point the speaker was trying to make. It perhaps says something about us as a community, and perhaps as a country, that "smarter" is the most reasonable reason we can possibly think of why some people might be accorded extra voting power, to one degree or another. Wyoming's extra EC votes per citizen aren't saying that Wyomingites are smarter and should therefore get more votes. That has nothign to do with it. They are saying that Wyoming is sufficiently strategic, as a state, that they are worth a "signing bonus" to have in the Union at all. The EC was created to assure the smaller of the 13 colonies that they were valued members of the Union and that the Union valued them sufficiently to give them voice over and above their populational share. Which is not to say they Founders didn't value smartness. Indeed, they valued smartness to a degree considered anathema today. They valued it /so much/ that they didn't want non-smart people [which in their consideration was virtually everyone who didn't hold public office] voting for President [or Senators] at all. That is the reason why the EC exists. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Nov 15 01:04:00 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:04:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1703fb52-6afb-5644-fc05-4428d81e6bbe@libero.it> Il 14/11/2016 00:35, John Clark ha scritto: John I wanted to write something to troll you BUT You are gone so far away I really don't know what to write. -- Mirco Romanato From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 05:11:59 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 06:11:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John, I think yours is a principled and admirable Libertarian opposition to Trump. But consider the consequences of what you suggest. In the best case, it would end the US as a confederation of autonomous and partly sovereign states, which seems a nightmare scenario to me. In the worse case, it would start a civil war (a real war with guns, not words, a war where people get physically killed, not psychologically offended). That is, of course, even more nightmarish. I suggest you guys stick with Trump. He is, unfortunately, better than the alternative you suggest. Trump was elected because both major parties fucked up bigtime. Now the two major parties must learn their lessons and reconnect with their constituencies. Four years are short, as we old-timers know only too well. In four years, there will be another chance. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 6:55 PM, John Clark wrote: > The real presidential election is on December 19 when the electoral college > votes, and this link is to a petition for them to follow the will of the > people and vote for Hillary Clinton, nearly 4 million people have signed it > already: > > https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19 > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 07:07:46 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:07:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > But consider the consequences of what you suggest. In the best case, > it would end the US as a confederation of autonomous and partly > sovereign states, which seems a nightmare scenario to me. I fail to see how this is the best case outcome of the electoral college breaking from tradition. If Clinton gets elected...Clinton gets elected, and (again, in the best case) the 50 United States treat this as legal. In the worse > case, it would start a civil war (a real war with guns, not words, a > war where people get physically killed, not psychologically offended). > That is, of course, even more nightmarish. > This is possible. So is civil war if Trump remains in office. Many things are possible, and I can imagine even worse cases than a conventional civil war with death tolls in the millions. (For example, Trump gives the order to deploy nuclear weapons upon the rebels...and when the various nuclear weapon stations decide to vote with their nukes, the outcome sets an entirely new high bar for "a damaging, fiercely contested election".) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:30:25 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:30:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:11 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: ?> ? > In four > ? ? > years, there will be another chance. > ?Well, you're certainly an optimist! When he had no power to do anything about it he said he would respect the results of the 2016 election only if he won, what makes you think he will behave differently in 2020 when he will be Commander In Chief and have the military power to negate the election? I don't know what's going to happen and history can not guide us, we've elected bad people to the presidency before but not a flat out fascist like Trump. And democracy is a delicate thing. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Tue Nov 15 15:27:34 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:27:34 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a5ceaa0-8119-7d25-1943-4321a69cedbd@libero.it> Il 15/11/2016 15:30, John Clark ha scritto: > ?Well, you're certainly an optimist! When he had no power to do > anything about it he said he would respect the results of the 2016 > election only if he won, what makes you think he will behave differently > in 2020 when he will be Commander In Chief and have the military power > to negate the election? I don't know what's going to happen and history > can not guide us, we've elected bad people to the presidency before but > not a flat out fascist like Trump. And democracy is a delicate thing. > > John K Clark John he didn't say it: He was asked if he would concede if the results were for Hillary. He just replied he would think about it. The implication is he would wait until official tallies were public and if possible recounts were to be sought. I ask you: Do you think the military would obey a clearly unlawful order to negate the elections? Your mind totalled because you can not conceive Trump won and Hillary lost. Your problem, nor ours. The US survived 16 years of FDR + 8 of Truman. I give the US more credits than you do. Look at these maps http://rightnation.it/2016/11/11/dieci-fatti-in-ordine-sparso-sulle-elezioni-americane/ They show your country is more radicalized than when Obama was elected the last time. The Democratic lead counties are more democrats and the Republican lead counties are more republicans. If the EC elected Hillary anyway, this radicalization would increase furthermore. And at some time in the future, the two parts would start fighting a real war. Because the only way you can have the EC to turn against their electors is to buy them or blackmail them. Anyway, the electors would imperially pissed off, they would stop believing in the democratic process and the rule of law. But probably you can not see the problem because I gather you have no understanding of what the "Rule of Law" is. Electors are more interested in the email mishandling of Hillary (four years ago - a fact) than the pussy grab of Trump (20 years ago - a say so). And they are right to do so. From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:34:58 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:34:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now the two major parties must learn their lessons and reconnect with their constituencies. Just what lessons did the Repubs learn from being the party of NO? It worked, didn't it? No Obama Supreme Court nominee made it. I am far less afraid of Trump acting alone than both houses of congress being Repub. They have a great opportunity to destroy a lot of what we hold dear. And maybe some things we don't, like the Dept. of Education. We've had gridlock much of the time and now we don't. Let's see just how horrible it turns out. I suspect deregulatory madness at the least. Obamacare will go, angering 25 million of us, and leaving them no alternative but the emergency room. Did you read what Spike's wife got charged? (That may have been between Spike and myself -ask him if you want to know). I wish there were something I could do besides sit on the sidelines and bitch. bill w On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 8:30 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 12:11 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > ?> ? >> In four >> ? ? >> years, there will be another chance. >> > > ?Well, you're certainly an optimist! When he had no power to do anything > about it he said he would respect the results of the 2016 election only if > he won, what makes you think he will behave differently in 2020 when he > will be Commander In Chief and have the military power to negate the > election? I don't know what's going to happen and history can not guide us, > we've elected bad people to the presidency before but not a flat out > fascist like Trump. And democracy is a delicate thing. > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anders at aleph.se Mon Nov 14 14:42:06 2016 From: anders at aleph.se (Anders) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:42:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Off for now In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On 2016-11-12 02:12, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > extropy? > > Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over > the chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we > are not doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. Exactly. There are important and interesting things happening in AI, life extension, nanotechnology, space, transhumanist philosophy and cognitive science right now. However, they have no place here, since this is clearly a place for yelling about political scenarios. Not unimportant, but it presumably means we should take the extropianism somewhere else. I will be at EAGxOxford. See you. -- Dr Anders Sandberg Future of Humanity Institute Oxford Martin School Oxford University -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 15 19:13:25 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:13:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <028101d23f74$57964db0$06c2e910$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump >?Just what lessons did the Repubs learn from being the party of NO? It worked, didn't it? Almost. We still ended up with the ACA, against perfectly unified opposition, who accurately predicted exactly what we are seeing: the young and healthy males didn?t come. The whole scheme depended on them coming in large numbers to pay for it. They didn?t. >?No Obama Supreme Court nominee made it? Sotomayor and Kagan? >?I am far less afraid of Trump acting alone than both houses of congress being Repub? As long as no party holds a supermajority, the damage can be limited. It is OK to be the party of no. >?They have a great opportunity to destroy a lot of what we hold dear. And maybe some things we don't, like the Dept. of Education? BillW, being as you are an educator, I am really eager to have you expound on that comment. Since the DeptEd is non-partisan, that isn?t a political post. I am guessing you are the most qualified person here on that topic. We are all ears sir. >?Did you read what Spike's wife got charged? (That may have been between Spike and myself -ask him if you want to know)? bill w No worries, I will tell. Last month, my bride had some kind of infection which caused her throat to swell, trouble breathing, panic, mad dash to the Stanford ER at triple-digit speeds in the middle of the night. They did triage, kept us waiting for over an hour by which time the swelling had already begun to subside and the worst of the crisis passed. Junior doc gave her an antibiotic and a pain relief shot. We were there a little over three hours total, less than two of that in actual medical care. The bill: a bit over 16 thousand dollars. While there, I looked around to determine why all the ER beds were filled, or why the ER docs were too busy to see us when we came in. Most of the beds appeared to be occupied by sleeping homeless people who were there because of poking themselves with the synthetic heroin that is so popular these days. I asked a few questions and heard what I feared: they get those patients in there, no insurance, no money, no ID, no address, no nothing but a shopping cart with trash and smelly blankets. The medics can?t do a damn thing for them after the stuff is already in their veins. So? they fill our ER beds every night. The doctors can only stand by to see if they survive. The staff know them by name; frequent fliers in the local ER. Meanwhile, paying customers are suffering out in the waiting room. When we left, the dopers were still in there snoring away blissfully, and a new paying customer was out in the waiting room, perhaps not realizing they were going to pay for nearly everyone else there. The ACA didn?t fix that; mighta made it worse. Reasoning: the ER still hasta pay the bills somehow. One way or another; it hasta go where the money is. It did. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:34:45 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:34:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Off for now In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 15, 2016 11:21 AM, "Anders" wrote: > On 2016-11-12 02:12, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, extropy? >> >> Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > Exactly. There are important and interesting things happening in AI, life extension, nanotechnology, space, transhumanist philosophy and cognitive science right now. However, they have no place here, since this is clearly a place for yelling about political scenarios. Not unimportant, but it presumably means we should take the extropianism somewhere else. > > I will be at EAGxOxford. See you. Spike: we are now losing members because the political talk went past the election, and there is now no end in sight. I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political system and the upcoming executive branch save where they directly impact transhumanist topics. (Talking about support for space tech, sure. Talking about whether there will be a 2020 election, and especially about what the political parties should have done to avoid Clinton vs. Trump, tempban. Even speculating about the odds of Trump launching nuclear war is off-limits, since that quickly bleeds into "...and here's how to get Trump out of office/...and you're morons if you supported Trump".) No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 19:39:33 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:39:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Off for now In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: +1 On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Nov 15, 2016 11:21 AM, "Anders" wrote: > > On 2016-11-12 02:12, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > extropy? > >> > >> Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over > the chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are > not doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > > > Exactly. There are important and interesting things happening in AI, > life extension, nanotechnology, space, transhumanist philosophy and > cognitive science right now. However, they have no place here, since this > is clearly a place for yelling about political scenarios. Not unimportant, > but it presumably means we should take the extropianism somewhere else. > > > > I will be at EAGxOxford. See you. > > Spike: we are now losing members because the political talk went past the > election, and there is now no end in sight. > > I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political > system and the upcoming executive branch save where they directly impact > transhumanist topics. (Talking about support for space tech, sure. > Talking about whether there will be a 2020 election, and especially about > what the political parties should have done to avoid Clinton vs. Trump, > tempban. Even speculating about the odds of Trump launching nuclear war is > off-limits, since that quickly bleeds into "...and here's how to get Trump > out of office/...and you're morons if you supported Trump".) > > No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 20:44:03 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:44:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Off for now In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: On 15 November 2016 at 19:34, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political > system and the upcoming executive branch save where they directly impact > transhumanist topics. (Talking about support for space tech, sure. Talking > about whether there will be a 2020 election, and especially about what the > political parties should have done to avoid Clinton vs. Trump, tempban. > Even speculating about the odds of Trump launching nuclear war is > off-limits, since that quickly bleeds into "...and here's how to get Trump > out of office/...and you're morons if you supported Trump".) > > No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. > +1 from me also. It is not even political talk. Now it is just insane screaming in anguish. BillK From spike66 at att.net Tue Nov 15 21:26:44 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:26:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Off for now In-Reply-To: References: <01aa01d23c76$79095d30$6b1c1790$@att.net> Message-ID: <02de01d23f86$f6fc8ec0$e4f5ac40$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes >?Spike: we are now losing members because the political talk went past the election, and there is now no end in sight. I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political system ? No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. Thy wish be granted, my son. Please my fellow ExI-chat members, we see we have lost the guy I consider the most valuable player, posts always filled with good stuff, insights, calculations. We know it has been traumatic, and we know we will pay for what we have done, but it is done now. Let it go, get back to the reason this list is here: technology! Science! Transhumanism! A positive outlook on the future (if you can manage it (I can (can you? (thought so (good!))))) If anyone is tempted to squawk about some headline, I do urge we form a subgroup on that specific topic or an ExI-politics group. We have done that in the past; in fact some of the really most interesting discussions I saw over the years were to be found in a subgroup, such as the one we formed when the transparency/openness debate was going on here and Natasha asked us to take it outside. We did. Unfortunately a lot of interesting stuff, such as Julian Assange?s comments, are not in the archives and I didn?t keep any of it. There were about a dozen guys in that, the usual suspects which included me most of the time, Robert Bradbury who has died, I think Lee Corbin was in there, died recently, Mike Lorrey has his own group, Eugen Leitl who wrote some really interesting stuff, a big transparency opponent, has gone to DarkNet last I heard. There might be no one left from those days, about 2000, damn. We had other specialized subgroups. If someone wants to set up a Reddit, I will join it, not as moderator. I request please, let us stop the US politics before we lose more highly valued contributors. I hope Anders will come back eventually or will check in once something big happens. As friendly neighborhood omnipotent dictatorial ExI-chat moderator, I ask please: no more. Let it go. Thanks! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 22:32:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:32:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump In-Reply-To: <028101d23f74$57964db0$06c2e910$@att.net> References: <028101d23f74$57964db0$06c2e910$@att.net> Message-ID: BillW, being as you are an educator, I am really eager to have you expound on that comment. spike I'll have to beg off. All I know about it what a former student of mine tells me and it's all bad. Main complaint: all students are put in one basket and all are expected to improve. That includes students who are mentally retarded and other disabilities. No Child Left Behind is apparently a nightmare, and whatever has replaced it. I'll get with her if you wish and provide more details. Another thing is the standardized tests (which cost Mississippi 100 million dollars a year) and all the problems they cause. I see where we drove away Anders. Maybe we can pick it up again and have some policy/philosophy/application of technology discussions. If all we are going to have is politics, I"ll take a break as well (for four years at least). I have tried a few things to restart us but they failed to achieve much attention. bill w (Spike, send them $25 a month on the hospital bill and see what happens) On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:13 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] The last chance to stop Trump > > > > > > >?Just what lessons did the Repubs learn from being the party of NO? It > worked, didn't it? > > > > Almost. We still ended up with the ACA, against perfectly unified > opposition, who accurately predicted exactly what we are seeing: the young > and healthy males didn?t come. The whole scheme depended on them coming in > large numbers to pay for it. They didn?t. > > > > > > >?No Obama Supreme Court nominee made it? > > > > Sotomayor and Kagan? > > > > >?I am far less afraid of Trump acting alone than both houses of congress > being Repub? > > > > As long as no party holds a supermajority, the damage can be limited. It > is OK to be the party of no. > > > > >?They have a great opportunity to destroy a lot of what we hold dear. > And maybe some things we don't, like the Dept. of Education? > > > > BillW, being as you are an educator, I am really eager to have you expound > on that comment. Since the DeptEd is non-partisan, that isn?t a political > post. I am guessing you are the most qualified person here on that topic. > We are all ears sir. > > > > >?Did you read what Spike's wife got charged? (That may have been between > Spike and myself -ask him if you want to know)? bill w > > > > No worries, I will tell. Last month, my bride had some kind of infection > which caused her throat to swell, trouble breathing, panic, mad dash to the > Stanford ER at triple-digit speeds in the middle of the night. They did > triage, kept us waiting for over an hour by which time the swelling had > already begun to subside and the worst of the crisis passed. Junior doc > gave her an antibiotic and a pain relief shot. We were there a little over > three hours total, less than two of that in actual medical care. The bill: > a bit over 16 thousand dollars. > > > > While there, I looked around to determine why all the ER beds were filled, > or why the ER docs were too busy to see us when we came in. Most of the > beds appeared to be occupied by sleeping homeless people who were there > because of poking themselves with the synthetic heroin that is so popular > these days. > > > > I asked a few questions and heard what I feared: they get those patients > in there, no insurance, no money, no ID, no address, no nothing but a > shopping cart with trash and smelly blankets. The medics can?t do a damn > thing for them after the stuff is already in their veins. So? they fill > our ER beds every night. The doctors can only stand by to see if they > survive. The staff know them by name; frequent fliers in the local ER. > Meanwhile, paying customers are suffering out in the waiting room. > > > > When we left, the dopers were still in there snoring away blissfully, and > a new paying customer was out in the waiting room, perhaps not realizing > they were going to pay for nearly everyone else there. The ACA didn?t fix > that; mighta made it worse. Reasoning: the ER still hasta pay the bills > somehow. One way or another; it hasta go where the money is. It did. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 05:56:58 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:56:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps the election didn't "end the reign of PC," but it certainly dealt a mighty blow to PC, and we are starting to see examples: NYU brings back professor who blasted PC culture, gives him a raise (see also: http://nypost.com/2016/11/14/nyu-strikes-a-blow-for-diversity-of-thought/ https://heatst.com/culture-wars/nyu-brings-back-deplorable-professor-awards-him-a-raise/ ) I guess PC run amok will be at least reduced. But that came at a quite expensive price. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 7:47 AM, david roman wrote: > I couldn't agree more. If Trump ends the reign of political correctness, > even if he turns out to be a disaster in every other sense (which is > entirely possible), he will have made humanity a favor. Slavoj Zizek > largely agrees too, from his particular Zizekian-Marxist POV: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bixgOtkLao&list= > PL52uJ5PwDvHvpdAtkCvNJPfPD-E94Iik6&index=49 > > > Slavoj ?i?ek: How Political Correctness Actually Elected ... > > www.youtube.com > Slovenian philosopher Slavoj ?i?ek thinks the U.S. political machinery is > truly broken. He guides a verbal tour through the failure of manufactured > consent, the ... > > > > ------------------------------ > *De:* extropy-chat en nombre de > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org extropy.org> > *Enviado:* s?bado, 12 de noviembre de 2016 20:48 > *Para:* extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > *Asunto:* extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 17 > > Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > extropy-chat Info Page > > lists.extropy.org > The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering > its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is > open to ExI members ... > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump > (Dan TheBookMan) > 2. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump > (John Clark) > 3. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump > (Adrian Tymes) > 4. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump > (William Flynn Wallace) > 5. Re: The very first question the press should ask Trump > (Darin Sunley) > 6. what the commies are saying (spike) > 7. the joy of now, was: RE: The very first question ... (spike) > 8. Last political post for a while (I hope) (Giulio Prisco) > 9. Re: ok, so prove it (Rafal Smigrodzki) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:29:35 -0800 > From: Dan TheBookMan > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 3:51 PM, spike wrote: > > I do! > > > > Oh wait, you meant? that guy they say won, OK. > > > > Let?s see, that one, 2020 contest. Mike Pence and Jenna Bush vs. > Michelle Obama and Chelsea Clinton? > > > > Oh we can do so much better than this crowd. What happened to that guy > they had, Senator Jim Webb? He seemed so honest and sane, a decorated > veteran with two purple hearts, I am astonished he didn?t walk away with > the nomination with change left over. Anyone who has been in combat will > not be eager to send anyone else?s sons there. > > Spike, four years ago you might have made a reasonable guess Hillary > Clinton would run and win her party's nomination, but would you have > guessed Trump would run and win the GOP nomination? If not, then do you > think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic Party's > nominee in 02020? I don't. (Of course, they could be stupid like the GOP -- > lining up McCain back in 02008 and Dole back in 01996: weak candidates who > seemed to earn being on the ticket by simple seniority rather than broad > appeal.;) I think, though, it's likely not to be another Clinton or another > Obama. > > I believe this campaign kind of was a rejection of the House of Clinton. > Meaning? Democrats won't give them another chance. It's likely also a > rejection of the House of Bush. Recall how Jeb was predicted an early > favorite in 02015, then his campaign evaporated faster then a mini-black > hole. Why think future elections will merely be rehashing the same small > cast of characters? (This isn't to say much changes: shitty policy mixes, > but with new, more often unrelated* faces.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books via: > http://author.to/DanUst > Amazon.com: Books > author.to > Online shopping from a great selection at Books Store. > > > > * I don't mean complete outsiders, but who were the Clintons in 01990? I > was perhaps too young to notice, but had you known about them back then? > Anyone else here know of them in 01990? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/fdb650e3/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:43:01 -0500 > From: John Clark > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Dan TheBookMan > > ?> ? > > do you think you have a reasonable guess if who will be the Democratic > > Party's nominee in 02020? > > > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I > want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes > for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > > John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/7929b0c8/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:52:09 -0800 > From: Adrian Tymes > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > Message-ID: > w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, I > want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that goes > for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > > There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even if > the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the > Greens to give the illusion of democracy. > > But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst of > the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil > conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest for > Trump's head. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/daaeab75/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:12:44 -0600 > From: William Flynn Wallace > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > extropy? > > Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the > chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are not > doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > bill w > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > > > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in 2020, > > I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > > nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that > goes > > for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > > > > There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even > if > > the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and the > > Greens to give the illusion of democracy. > > > > But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst > of > > the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a civil > > conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest > for > > Trump's head. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > extropy-chat Info Page > > lists.extropy.org > The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering > its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is > open to ExI members ... > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/2cf8deff/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:32:57 -0700 > From: Darin Sunley > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > When I watch or read Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, I always listen very > closely to the "Wave" speech. If you're familiar with the work, you know > what I'm talking about. It's a poignant meditation by a man who had devoted > his entire identity to a movement, a movement that was going to change the > world, and then watched it all fade away. > > When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they were > in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened since > then, It almost fills me with joy. > > Because we won! Mostly anyways. The weirdo out-there ideas we used to throw > around are now pretty much most people's every day. Millions of people > today used voice recognition on the pocket computers they carry everywhere > to ask a huge network of data centers to query terabyte databases to tell > them where would be a good place to go to lunch. Said database company, > btw, just made an AI that plays Go better than any human. Cryptocurrency is > a significant concern to the financial elites of the world. Billionarire > entreprenuers [who incidentally are pursuing reasonably credible plans to > singlehandedly colonize Mars] speak casually of the world being a computer > simulation, and not only do their stock prices not crash, it makes no > ripple at all! People just say "Yep, may be." > > Ok, so diamond-phase nanotechnology could be a bit further ahead, and true > morphological freedom (as opposed to extremely effective medical protheses) > may not be on most people's ethical radars yet, but we're definitely > getting there. > > I was the techy weirdo because, in 2001, I was the only person in the > building with cellular internet in 1999. Now I'm the weirdo because I'm > almost the only person in my workplace's building /without/ a smartphone. > > Transhumanism and Extropianism didn't fade away, or burn out. They turned > into everyone's background normal. The future we saw has begun to arrive, > and it is still coming. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Is this the group that used to discuss transhumanism, libertarianism, > > extropy? > > > > Just burned out, are you? It seems that side issues are taking over the > > chats. Politics can certain be related to the issues above, but we are > not > > doing that, are we? If we are it's too subtle for me. > > > > bill w > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > >> On Nov 11, 2016 5:44 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > >> > ?The question isn't who will be the Democratic Party's nominee in > 2020, > >> I want to know if Trump will allow the Democratic Party to even have a > >> nominee in 2020. It is not at all obvious to me that he will. And that > goes > >> for the Libertarian Party and Green Party too. > >> > >> There is such a psychological block about voting third party that, even > >> if the GOP were to jail the Dems, I could see them allowing the Libs and > >> the Greens to give the illusion of democracy. > >> > >> But I suspect Trump knows he needs the Dems, to save him from the worst > >> of the GOP for being less than they hoped for. He has already had a > civil > >> conversation with Obama, which has sent some of them howling in protest > for > >> Trump's head. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > extropy-chat Info Page > > lists.extropy.org > The longest running transhumanist email list in the world. Now entering > its second decade, the Extropy-Chat (formerly "Extropians") Email List is > open to ExI members ... > > > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/300300e6/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:38:16 -0800 > From: "spike" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Subject: [ExI] what the commies are saying > Message-ID: <023e01d23c8d$d2d73460$78859d20$@att.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" > > Sometimes it helps to get a foreign perspective when one's own press is all > over the map. Here's what the Russians are saying: > > > > ?????? ??????????????: ????? ?? ?????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? > > ?????????? 959 ???????????? 1 ???????? 6 > > > > ????? ????? ???????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? - > ?????? > ????????? ? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ????????? ????????????? > ??????????? ????????? ??????????? ?????? ???. > > > > "??? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????, ?? ? ?????????????? > ?? ????????? ??????? - ??? ??????? ? ????????????? ? ???????? ????? ? > ????????? ?????? ??? ????????????? ?? ?????? ? ????? ????, ?? ? ?? > ????????????? ?????", - ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????????????? ??????. > > "?????? ????? - ???????? ?????? ?? ????????? ??????, ?????????? ???????? ?? > ???? ??????? ?? ????????? ??????, ? ????????? ?? ???????????? ???????. > ????? > ???????????? ???? ? ??????? ?????????? ?? ??????? ? ?? ????????? ?.??????? > ?????? ?????? ????????. ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????? ????????", - > ????????? ???????. > > > > "?????????? ???? ?????? ?? ????????? ? ??????????? ??????? ?????. ??? ???? > ?????? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ??????? ?????. ?? ????? ?? ????? ???????? ? > ???, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????, ? ?? ?????? ???????",,- > ???????????? ?????????. > > > > ?? ?????? ??????????? ???????, "????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ???, ??? > ???? ?????? ????????? ????? ?? ??????? ??????????". ??? ?????????, ??????, > ??? ??????? "???? ?????????" ? ????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????. > > > > "???????? ???????????? ????????????? ??????, ????????????? ?????????? > ??????????????, ??????????????, ??????????? ??????? ? ??? ?????? ?????? > ??????, ????? - ????????? ??? ? ????? ??????????? ? ????????? ????? > ??????", > - ??????? ??. > > > > ????? ???????????? ????? ????????? ????? ???????? ??? ??????????? ????????? > ? ????? ? ??????? ??????, ?? ?????? ?? "????????? ??????? ??? > ?????????????". > > "?????? - ??? ???????????-?????????????? ?????????-???????????? ????????? > ?????? ????? ? ?????????????. ?????? - ?????, ??? ??????????? ???????? > ????????, ????? ????? ?????? ????????? ???? ?? ?????????? ?????? ???????? > ????????, ???????? ??????????, ??????? ?????????", - ??????? ??. > > > > "? ????????? ???? ??????????? ????????? ?? ??????????? ???????????? > ???????, > ??????, ??? "???????????? ????", ??????? ????? ?????????? ??????? > ?????????, > ????????? ?? ??????????",- ????????? ?????? ???????????? ????????????????? > ??????????????. > > > > "????? ????? ?????????????, ????????????? ???????? ? ???????? ??????? ???. > ? > ???????? ??????????? ?? ?????? ??????????, ??? ??????????? ??????, ??????, > ???????????? ????????????? ???????, ???????? ????????????, ?????????? > ??????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????, ??? ????? ??????????????, > ?????????, > ????????? "??????? ?????????", - ????????? ??. > > > > "????? ??? ??????????? ?? 100% ????? ????????. ??? ?????? ?????? - ?????, > ???????????? ????? ???????? ? ????????? ? ????????? ?????????????? > ?????????",- ??????? ???????????? ?????. > > > > ????????, ??? ??????? ????? ????????? ????????? ????????? ? ????????? > ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ??????? ?????????? ???. ??? > ????????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????????? 70-??????? ???????????, ??????? > ???? > ????????? ? ????????? ??? ? ???????. > > > > > > This perspective didn't help a bit. I just don't know what to think of > this > commentary. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I don't > understand a single word of Russian. > > > > The English translation makes a lot more sense however: > > > > Should Russia rejoice at Donald Trump's victory? > > 09.11.2016 > > > > The head of the Civil Society Development Fund, Konstantin Kostin, is > certain that the victory of presidential candidate Donald Trump has > demonstrated people's disappointment in the old American elite. > > > > "No one was expecting Trump to win. They did not expect the Republicans to > take the majority at the Senate elections. This speaks of people's > disappointment in Obama's policies. The American people have shown that > they > do not want to see Democrats either in the White House or on Capitol Hill," > one of Russia's leading political strategists said. > > "The Americans were ready to accept Obama's tax increases. At the same > time, > many people had to cut their living standards. Yet, no one wants to give > the > money to the lazy instead of the poor," the analyst believes. > > > > According to Konstantin Kostin, "Trump will defend US interests, while > reducing the budget spending on the export of democracy." > > > > "Let's wait for the formation of the Trump administration. It is hard for > me > to understand the Russian MPs, who applauded to the news about Trump's > election. Trump is the US President, and he will act in the interests of > his > country first and foremost," the analyst said. > > Donald Trump's victory is not a perfect occasion for applause on Russia's > part, yet, Russia has two reasons for restrained optimism, Mr. Kostin > believes. > > > > "First off, US-Russian relations have always been better and more > predictable during the times of Republican presidents. Secondly, Trump, as > an adherent of realpolitik, will certainly be against the USA's mission of > the global hegemon, exporter of democracy and color revolutions," he > explained. "Trump is most unusual and anti-system candidate in modern US > history. The support that Trump has received means that most Americans are > a > lot more interested in their own income, taxes and safety than in the > rights > of sexual minorities, migrants and issues associated with color > revolutions. > > > > > "Trump has taken a complete advantage of this in his campaign. His winning > recipe contains such ingredients as bright and extraordinary style in > conjunction with absolutely conservative rhetoric," Konstantin Kostin > said. > > > > Politonline > > > > - See more at: > http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/politics/09-11-2016/ > 136111-russia_donald_ > trump_wins-0/#sthash.ndBuskdM.dpuf > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/b576085e/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:44:17 -0800 > From: "spike" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Subject: [ExI] the joy of now, was: RE: The very first question ... > Message-ID: <028201d23c97$0bd62ec0$23828c40$@att.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > ] On Behalf Of Darin Sunley > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 6:33 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] The very first question the press should ask Trump > > > > >?When I think back to the Extropian and transhumanism movements as they > were in the 90's, when I joined this list, and think about what's happened > since then, It almost fills me with joy? > > > > Thanks for this Darin. With me it isn?t almost. I am filled with joy > when I ponder where our heads were in the 1990s and compare. Back in those > days, about 1994 when the internet was really starting up, when I started > reading (but not yet posting to) Extropians, what kinds of things I was > thinking. I didn?t allow myself to believe the wilder things, fearing > disappointment should it fail to appear. Other areas I so underestimated, > I am delighted completely. For instance: > > > > We talked a lot about some form of flying cars. I know how to do the > calcs on that, so I knew that no matter what, we were not going up, not on > a daily individual basis. No flying cars: inherent limitations in vertical > take-off will always be with us, regardless of material advances. So I > knew that was going to be a no-show. Check. What I didn?t foresee was the > stunning development of other technologies that would make high speed > transportation less relevant now than it was 20 yrs ago. > > > > We talked a lot about transparency. Watching how one of our own took hold > of this and created WikiLeaks has been a constant delight. Watching its > impact on government, astonishing, exhilarating. > > > > We talked about advances in computing power. That Moore?s Law continued > as long as it did right up to near the atomic limit blows my mind. > > > > We talked about future astronomy instruments, but back then I never would > have dreamed we would build LIGO and have it find something immediately. > That one thing is a perfect example of something I just would not have > believed, even if a deep booming voice had come from a clear sky, the kind > of deep booming voice you just know doesn?t lie, telling me an instrument > would be built and would find gravity waves. I would have found the > nearest bullhorn and pointed it back skyward and shouted NOOOOO WAAAAAY? > But it happened. > > > > The real-money ideas futures: I just won a pile on this latest election. > It helps to remind oneself that betting is on what you believe is going to > happen, not what you want to happen. I did. I won. > > > > Brain prosthesis: well wait now, think about it. We didn?t get an > implantable device, but what we did get is in some ways better: these nifty > little smart phones with internet and OK Google is pretty close to a brain > prosthetic. I would argue it is better in a way. Suppose some yahoo > invented a device you could surgically implant in your brain to get 20 > additional IQ points. Would I do it? Probably not. Why? It would hafta > be risky and expensive. Brain surgery just isn?t going to be cheap and it > isn?t going to be without major risks, no way. At this point I might envy > those who received one, but probably wouldn?t do it myself. But I take my > phone everywhere, and I use OK Google a lot. > > > > I took the cub scouts and joined a Veterans Day parade in San Jose today. > I used OK Google about a dozen times while I was out. Cell phones are > cheap and pose no risk at all. I would argue this is a form of brain > prosthetic that turned out better than 90s visions. > > > > That the internet would become as effective a means of education for all > has exceeded my grandest vision. Now we all carry the world?s libraries in > our pockets. > > > > There is grandeur in this view of life. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161111/30670b7e/attachment-0001.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 09:20:04 +0100 > From: Giulio Prisco > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] Last political post for a while (I hope) > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Last political post for a while (I hope) > https://giulioprisco.com/last-political-post-for-a-while-i- > hope-cce8a82d9103 > > I warned that the excesses of the Politically Correct (PC) ?Social > Justice Warriors? (SJWs) would push lots of reasonable people to > Donald???now President-elect???Trump. It appears I was right. I was > not only right: I was spectacularly right... > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:47:51 -0500 > From: Rafal Smigrodzki > Cc: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] ok, so prove it > Message-ID: > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I know it because I can think and derive this from first principles. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:37 PM, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki < > > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > ?> ? > >> ### Of course, the elections were rigged up the wazoo, and she knows it > - > >> her boys did the rigging. > >> > > > > ?And you know this because you don't read newspapers but you do > > read Breitbart and Fox News. And Breitbart and Fox News always tell the > > truth. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > -- > Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD > Senior Scientist, > Gencia Corporation > 706 B Forest St. > > Charlottesville, VA 22903 > > tel: (434) 295-4800 > > fax: (434) 295-4951 > > > > This electronic message transmission contains information from the > biotechnology firm of Gencia Corporation which may be confidential or > privileged. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual > or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that > any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic > transmission in error, please notify us by telephone (434-295-4800) or by > electronic mail (fportell at genciabiotech.com) immediately. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: attachments/20161112/796a0c9f/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > ------------------------------ > > End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 17 > ********************************************* > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 06:36:31 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:36:31 +0100 Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST GREAT AGAIN Message-ID: I thought of a new subject line for this thread that bears some kind of affinity to the discussion that spawned it... The problem with the list is not too much politics, but too little of everything else. When I joined in the nineties this list was my main source of food for thought: Extropy, space, nanotech, the then emerging internet, life extension, AI, uploading... And a lot of politics too... Most of us are still still around and writing about the same things, only not here. The list has been mostly retired for years, apart from occasional bursts of activity. I am still here for emotional attachment, and I guess many others can say the same. I write and share a lot of stuff, but these days posting to Facebook or Reddit is so much faster than posting to a mailing list, and reaches many more people. Mailing lists are still the most decentralized option, but alas not as good as contemporary centralized alternatives. Should we try to restart the fire here? Or perhaps move to a Discourse (http://www.discourse.org/) board (like the Boing Boing forum)? Or some other platform? Or a subreddit? Note that Discourse and Reddit itself are mostly open source, someone would need to do the IT setup (and of course maintenance and admin) work. Thoughts? On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:26 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf > Of Adrian Tymes > >>?Spike: we are now losing members because the political talk went past the >> election, and there is now no end in sight. > > I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political > system ? > > No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. > > > > > > Thy wish be granted, my son. > > Please my fellow ExI-chat members, we see we have lost the guy I consider > the most valuable player, posts always filled with good stuff, insights, > calculations. We know it has been traumatic, and we know we will pay for > what we have done, but it is done now. Let it go, get back to the reason > this list is here: technology! Science! Transhumanism! A positive outlook > on the future (if you can manage it (I can (can you? (thought so > (good!))))) > > If anyone is tempted to squawk about some headline, I do urge we form a > subgroup on that specific topic or an ExI-politics group. We have done that > in the past; in fact some of the really most interesting discussions I saw > over the years were to be found in a subgroup, such as the one we formed > when the transparency/openness debate was going on here and Natasha asked us > to take it outside. We did. Unfortunately a lot of interesting stuff, such > as Julian Assange?s comments, are not in the archives and I didn?t keep any > of it. There were about a dozen guys in that, the usual suspects which > included me most of the time, Robert Bradbury who has died, I think Lee > Corbin was in there, died recently, Mike Lorrey has his own group, Eugen > Leitl who wrote some really interesting stuff, a big transparency opponent, > has gone to DarkNet last I heard. There might be no one left from those > days, about 2000, damn. > > We had other specialized subgroups. If someone wants to set up a Reddit, I > will join it, not as moderator. > > I request please, let us stop the US politics before we lose more highly > valued contributors. I hope Anders will come back eventually or will check > in once something big happens. > > As friendly neighborhood omnipotent dictatorial ExI-chat moderator, I ask > please: no more. Let it go. > > Thanks! > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 06:48:14 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:48:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST GREAT AGAIN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the way, Reddit users and those who want to try Reddit are invited and warmly welcome to join my subreddit: Smoking Area 51 https://www.reddit.com/r/smokingarea51/ The current About sidebar: POLITICALLY INCORRECT sci/tech and more. FREE SPEECH. The primary focus of this subreddit is highly imaginative, politically incorrect science, science fiction, and technology. But feel free to submit more or less related posts about internet, culture, religion, society, politics, and everything else. (Almost) anything goes. Think of this subreddit as a smoking area (politically incorrect behavior and opinions welcome) in Area 51, the top-secret government facility with a crashed UFO and live aliens. Most discussions are about space and awesome, weird sci/tech, but other things keep creeping in. This subreddit is politically unbiased. All political opinions are welcome. FREE SPEECH. This is NO SAFE SPACE for crybabies. (Almost NO) Code of Conduct: This is a place for adults. Enter at your risk and accept that others have different opinions. FYA is OK, but mobbing and shutting others up is not OK. Of course, no spam, criminal content, personal threats, exhortations to physical violence, and similar. The enforcement policy is also simple: one offense and you are out. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:36 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > I thought of a new subject line for this thread that bears some kind > of affinity to the discussion that spawned it... > > The problem with the list is not too much politics, but too little of > everything else. > > When I joined in the nineties this list was my main source of food for > thought: Extropy, space, nanotech, the then emerging internet, life > extension, AI, uploading... And a lot of politics too... > > Most of us are still still around and writing about the same things, > only not here. The list has been mostly retired for years, apart from > occasional bursts of activity. I am still here for emotional > attachment, and I guess many others can say the same. > > I write and share a lot of stuff, but these days posting to Facebook > or Reddit is so much faster than posting to a mailing list, and > reaches many more people. Mailing lists are still the most > decentralized option, but alas not as good as contemporary centralized > alternatives. > > Should we try to restart the fire here? Or perhaps move to a Discourse > (http://www.discourse.org/) board (like the Boing Boing forum)? Or > some other platform? Or a subreddit? Note that Discourse and Reddit > itself are mostly open source, someone would need to do the IT setup > (and of course maintenance and admin) work. > > Thoughts? > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:26 PM, spike wrote: >> >> >> >> >> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf >> Of Adrian Tymes >> >>>?Spike: we are now losing members because the political talk went past the >>> election, and there is now no end in sight. >> >> I request an immediate, complete ban on discussion of the US political >> system ? >> >> No ifs, ands, or buts. No excuses. Stop it now, man. >> >> >> >> >> >> Thy wish be granted, my son. >> >> Please my fellow ExI-chat members, we see we have lost the guy I consider >> the most valuable player, posts always filled with good stuff, insights, >> calculations. We know it has been traumatic, and we know we will pay for >> what we have done, but it is done now. Let it go, get back to the reason >> this list is here: technology! Science! Transhumanism! A positive outlook >> on the future (if you can manage it (I can (can you? (thought so >> (good!))))) >> >> If anyone is tempted to squawk about some headline, I do urge we form a >> subgroup on that specific topic or an ExI-politics group. We have done that >> in the past; in fact some of the really most interesting discussions I saw >> over the years were to be found in a subgroup, such as the one we formed >> when the transparency/openness debate was going on here and Natasha asked us >> to take it outside. We did. Unfortunately a lot of interesting stuff, such >> as Julian Assange?s comments, are not in the archives and I didn?t keep any >> of it. There were about a dozen guys in that, the usual suspects which >> included me most of the time, Robert Bradbury who has died, I think Lee >> Corbin was in there, died recently, Mike Lorrey has his own group, Eugen >> Leitl who wrote some really interesting stuff, a big transparency opponent, >> has gone to DarkNet last I heard. There might be no one left from those >> days, about 2000, damn. >> >> We had other specialized subgroups. If someone wants to set up a Reddit, I >> will join it, not as moderator. >> >> I request please, let us stop the US politics before we lose more highly >> valued contributors. I hope Anders will come back eventually or will check >> in once something big happens. >> >> As friendly neighborhood omnipotent dictatorial ExI-chat moderator, I ask >> please: no more. Let it go. >> >> Thanks! >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 10:34:09 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:34:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST GREAT AGAIN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16 November 2016 at 06:36, Giulio Prisco wrote: > I thought of a new subject line for this thread that bears some kind > of affinity to the discussion that spawned it... > > The problem with the list is not too much politics, but too little of > everything else. > > When I joined in the nineties this list was my main source of food for > thought: Extropy, space, nanotech, the then emerging internet, life > extension, AI, uploading... And a lot of politics too... > > Most of us are still still around and writing about the same things, > only not here. The list has been mostly retired for years, apart from > occasional bursts of activity. I am still here for emotional > attachment, and I guess many others can say the same. > > I write and share a lot of stuff, but these days posting to Facebook > or Reddit is so much faster than posting to a mailing list, and > reaches many more people. Mailing lists are still the most > decentralized option, but alas not as good as contemporary centralized > alternatives. > > Should we try to restart the fire here? Or perhaps move to a Discourse > (http://www.discourse.org/) board (like the Boing Boing forum)? Or > some other platform? Or a subreddit? Note that Discourse and Reddit > itself are mostly open source, someone would need to do the IT setup > (and of course maintenance and admin) work. > > Thoughts? > Although I have a fair bit of computer experience I am opposed to the Social Web developments that are currently fashionable. People like to chat, but when everything is recorded and analysed it becomes an enabler for governments and corporations to control and manipulate populations. So I don't use Facebook, Twitter, etc. I occasionally read Reddit posts or watch YouTube videos, but never post there. And I have so far resisted getting a smartphone. (A device which offers up almost your entire life to official supervision and recording). Mailing lists are slower, but that is a good thing. Preparing an email, collecting references, considering options, all lead to a better quality of response. When the list degenerates into short 'He said, she said.....' type posts the quality quickly drops. That's why Exi has a recommended limit of 8 posts a day. Posting quick posts exceeding that limit means that you are spending very little time considering the content of what you are posting. And probably just trying to dominate the discussion and 'win' an argument. Posting to Exi is not just a discussion between two or three people. It will be read by many people who rarely post to the list but whose time is valuable and don't want to waste time on the puerile stuff that often streams through Twitter and Facebook. Horses for courses. Exi should be / is different and I like it that way. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 10:56:12 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:56:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST GREAT AGAIN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well said Bill. I remember Max said once that the ExI list should never become a Facebook group or similar. Then, should we try to restart the fire here? On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:34 AM, BillK wrote: > On 16 November 2016 at 06:36, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> I thought of a new subject line for this thread that bears some kind >> of affinity to the discussion that spawned it... >> >> The problem with the list is not too much politics, but too little of >> everything else. >> >> When I joined in the nineties this list was my main source of food for >> thought: Extropy, space, nanotech, the then emerging internet, life >> extension, AI, uploading... And a lot of politics too... >> >> Most of us are still still around and writing about the same things, >> only not here. The list has been mostly retired for years, apart from >> occasional bursts of activity. I am still here for emotional >> attachment, and I guess many others can say the same. >> >> I write and share a lot of stuff, but these days posting to Facebook >> or Reddit is so much faster than posting to a mailing list, and >> reaches many more people. Mailing lists are still the most >> decentralized option, but alas not as good as contemporary centralized >> alternatives. >> >> Should we try to restart the fire here? Or perhaps move to a Discourse >> (http://www.discourse.org/) board (like the Boing Boing forum)? Or >> some other platform? Or a subreddit? Note that Discourse and Reddit >> itself are mostly open source, someone would need to do the IT setup >> (and of course maintenance and admin) work. >> >> Thoughts? >> > > > Although I have a fair bit of computer experience I am opposed to the > Social Web developments that are currently fashionable. People like to > chat, but when everything is recorded and analysed it becomes an > enabler for governments and corporations to control and manipulate > populations. > > So I don't use Facebook, Twitter, etc. I occasionally read Reddit > posts or watch YouTube videos, but never post there. And I have so far > resisted getting a smartphone. (A device which offers up almost your > entire life to official supervision and recording). > > Mailing lists are slower, but that is a good thing. Preparing an > email, collecting references, considering options, all lead to a > better quality of response. When the list degenerates into short 'He > said, she said.....' type posts the quality quickly drops. That's why > Exi has a recommended limit of 8 posts a day. Posting quick posts > exceeding that limit means that you are spending very little time > considering the content of what you are posting. And probably just > trying to dominate the discussion and 'win' an argument. > > Posting to Exi is not just a discussion between two or three people. > It will be read by many people who rarely post to the list but whose > time is valuable and don't want to waste time on the puerile stuff > that often streams through Twitter and Facebook. > > Horses for courses. Exi should be / is different and I like it that way. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 16 18:20:45 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:20:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak Message-ID: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> Interesting commentary by SETI's Seth Shostak: http://www.space.com/34713-intelligent-aliens-machines-seti-search.html Electronic ET: Intelligent aliens are likely machines By Mike Wall Space.com Senior Writer Published November 15, 2016 Facebook Twitter livefyre Email Print Any intelligent aliens that humans manage to contact probably won't look much like you or me, or the squid-like creatures in the new film " Arrival." If an extraterrestrial species becomes advanced enough to send signals Earthlings can pick up, it will likely shed its traditional biological trappings and become a form of machine intelligence in rather short order, said veteran alien hunter Seth Shostak. To make his case, Shostak pointed to the path that humanity appears to be on. The human species invented the radio around 1900 and the computer in 1945, and it's already manufacturing relatively cheap devices with greater computing power than the human brain. The development of true, strong artificial intelligence (AI) is therefore not too far off, experts have said. The famous futurist Ray Kurzweil, for example, has pegged 2045 as the year this world-changing "singularity" will hit. "But maybe it takes to 2100, or 2150, or 2250. It doesn't matter," Shostak said in September during a presentation at the Dent:Space conference in San Francisco. "The point is, any society that invents radio, so we can hear them, within a few centuries, they've invented their successors. And I think that's important, because the successors are machines." AI will interface with people's bodies for a while, but eventually humans will abandon the wetware and go fully digital, Shostak predicted. "It'll be like - you build a four-cylinder engine. You put it in a horse to get a faster horse. And pretty soon you say, 'Look, let's get rid of the horse part and just build a Maserati,'" said Shostak, an astronomer at the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) Institute in Mountain View, California. "So that's probably what's going to happen." Humans' machine selves will get smarter and more capable incredibly quickly, he added. Humanity's present intelligence is the result of 4 billion years of Darwinian evolution, which uses random variation as its raw material and is not directed toward any particular goal. But the evolution of machine intelligence will be engineered and efficient, Shostak said. "Once you invent a thinking machine, you say, 'Invent something better than you are,' and you build that. 'Design something better than you are,' and you build that, and so forth," he said. This idea has serious implications for the search for intelligent alien life. Unlike Earth organisms, super-advanced extraterrestrial machines would not require water or other chemicals to survive, so they would not be tied to their ancestors' home worlds tightly at all, Shostak said. And journeying tremendous distances would not be a big deal to these machines, provided they could access enough energy and raw materials to keep repairing themselves over the millennia, he said. "We continue to look in the directions of star systems that we think have habitable words, that have planets where biology could cook up and eventually turn into something clever like you guys," he told the Dent:Space audience. "But I don't think it's going to be that way." Shostak said he isn't counseling his fellow SETI astronomers to stop investigating potentially Earth-like planets such as Proxima b, a recently discovered world that lies just 4.2 light-years away. (And simple life-forms could still inhabit such worlds even if their most intelligent inhabitants went digital and departed long ago, Shostak said.) But it may be a good idea to expand the search to regions of space that would seemingly be attractive to digital life-forms, he said - for example, places with lots of available energy, such as the centers of galaxies. "That may be where the really clever beings are," Shostak said. "Maybe what we ought to do is look at places on the sky that connect two places where there is a lot of energy," in an attempt to intercept communications between alien machines, Shostak added. "This is my message to you: We're looking for analogues of ourselves, but I don't know that that's the majority of the intelligence in the universe," Shostak concluded. "I'm willing to bet it's not." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 1202 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:46:12 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:46:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> Message-ID: On 16 November 2016 at 18:20, spike wrote: > Interesting commentary by SETI?s Seth Shostak: > > http://www.space.com/34713-intelligent-aliens-machines-seti-search.html > > Electronic ET: Intelligent aliens are likely machines > By Mike Wall Space.com Senior Writer > Published November 15, 2016 > > Any intelligent aliens that humans manage to contact probably won't look > much like you or me, or the squid-like creatures in the new film "Arrival." > > If an extraterrestrial species becomes advanced enough to send signals > Earthlings can pick up, it will likely shed its traditional biological > trappings and become a form of machine intelligence in rather short order, > said veteran alien hunter Seth Shostak. > I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing. Why aren't these AI machines all over the galaxy? Why aren't they broadcasting? What Shostak doesn't mention is the speedup in processing of these AIs and the consequences of that speedup. It would result in the physical universe appearing to be very slow, even 'dead'. And why would they try to communicate with the dead? BillK From spike66 at att.net Wed Nov 16 20:09:09 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:09:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> Message-ID: <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:46 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] cool article by shostak On 16 November 2016 at 18:20, spike wrote: >> Interesting commentary by SETI?s Seth Shostak: http://www.space.com/34713-intelligent-aliens-machines-seti-search.html >...I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing. Why aren't these AI machines all over the galaxy? Why aren't they broadcasting? What Shostak doesn't mention is the speedup in processing of these AIs and the consequences of that speedup. It would result in the physical universe appearing to be very slow, even 'dead'. And why would they try to communicate with the dead? BillK _______________________________________________ We have no way to model machine curiosity. We talk a lot of machine intelligence and curiosity are part of human intelligence. But it is easy enough to imagine one without the other. I have written software scripts that go off and make all kinds of interesting mathematical discoveries, but I have yet to write one which goes off on its own, asking questions or wondering how the heck this or that. I still hafta supply that part. Perhaps curious intelligent creatures created artificial non-curious non-explorer non-expanding intelligence? spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:25:01 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:25:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics Message-ID: If you want a summary of what was discussed back in the early days of the list, it's hard to beat Charles Stross's Accelerando. He was on the list, might still be for all I know. Computronium, Matrioshka brain, planet disintegrating, it's all there. Even the exchanges between Hans Maravec and me about the merits of cryonics vs authors being reconstructed from their works was turned into a plot element toward the end. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain The current topic is that we might have seen one of them. Tabby's star radiates no excess IR in our direction, and the light from this star has dimmed by 15 percent in the last 100 years, not counting the huge dips Kepler saw. Are we looking at something natural or are we looking at an alien megastructure? A few months before the first paper on KIC8462852, I published a design that just happened to radiate the waste heat from a power satellite solar north/south. Observers looking edge on at a system full of these would not see the IR. If you make the case that aliens are dimming the star, what are they doing with the energy? Even making the case that the power satellite band is only blocking 1% of the star's light, that's a lot of energy. What could they be doing with it? At 3% per year growth in energy, use, how far does that put them ahead of us? Perhaps aliens have another way to cope with waste heat. In theory you could dump it down a black hole. We don't think the universe is filled with Dyson spheres because we don't see a lot of IR. But it aliens have a way to get rid of waste heat besides radiating it, that could be the answers to the missing mass problem. If this isn't enough, there is a group that claims to have seen spectral shifts in the Sloan data for a couple of hundred stars in classes similar to that of the Sun. They make a case that the cause is big lasers and that it might be attempts to communicate in ways that make it cheap on the receiver end. I have argued that the natural course for intelligence is to speed up, which has the effect of inflating the distances between stars beyond reason. Still, if this is the background cause for what we see out there, why are there no exceptions? I.e., why are they not here? Is the physics that restrictive? It's a topic which seems to have little interest here but the whole business of moving into space was, long ago, an extropian topic. I think there are only two people who are on this list and power satellite economics. Now there is a chance that (as a solution to energy and carbon) it might be done. Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. Could a political political party be based on EP? Finally, are we living in the base reality or a simulation? This isn't exactly an extropian question though it has been discussed here. Best wishes, Keith From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:39:51 2016 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:39:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: The AIs /are/ all over the galaxy. The probes hit Earth at some indeterminate point in the geological past [the Cretaceous boundary stands out as a plausible candidate], and we're living in a simulation. :) On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:09 PM, spike wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On > Behalf Of BillK > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:46 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] cool article by shostak > > On 16 November 2016 at 18:20, spike wrote: > >> Interesting commentary by SETI?s Seth Shostak: > > http://www.space.com/34713-intelligent-aliens-machines-seti-search.html > > > > > >...I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing. > > Why aren't these AI machines all over the galaxy? > Why aren't they broadcasting? > > What Shostak doesn't mention is the speedup in processing of these AIs and > the consequences of that speedup. > It would result in the physical universe appearing to be very slow, even > 'dead'. And why would they try to communicate with the dead? > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > We have no way to model machine curiosity. We talk a lot of machine > intelligence and curiosity are part of human intelligence. But it is easy > enough to imagine one without the other. I have written software scripts > that go off and make all kinds of interesting mathematical discoveries, but > I have yet to write one which goes off on its own, asking questions or > wondering how the heck this or that. I still hafta supply that part. > > Perhaps curious intelligent creatures created artificial non-curious > non-explorer non-expanding intelligence? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:01:59 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:01:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing. Yeah - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and feelings and smells and tastes and the wonderful feeling of a woman's touch on your body. Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the article. I say let the machines do our heavy lifting, intelligence-wise, so we can be fully human (not to say that I would not change anything about us; I would). bill w On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Darin Sunley wrote: > The AIs /are/ all over the galaxy. The probes hit Earth at some > indeterminate point in the geological past [the Cretaceous boundary stands > out as a plausible candidate], and we're living in a simulation. :) > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:09 PM, spike wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On >> Behalf Of BillK >> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 11:46 AM >> To: ExI chat list >> Subject: Re: [ExI] cool article by shostak >> >> On 16 November 2016 at 18:20, spike wrote: >> >> Interesting commentary by SETI?s Seth Shostak: >> >> http://www.space.com/34713-intelligent-aliens-machines-seti-search.html >> >> >> >> >> >...I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing. >> >> Why aren't these AI machines all over the galaxy? >> Why aren't they broadcasting? >> >> What Shostak doesn't mention is the speedup in processing of these AIs >> and the consequences of that speedup. >> It would result in the physical universe appearing to be very slow, even >> 'dead'. And why would they try to communicate with the dead? >> >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> We have no way to model machine curiosity. We talk a lot of machine >> intelligence and curiosity are part of human intelligence. But it is easy >> enough to imagine one without the other. I have written software scripts >> that go off and make all kinds of interesting mathematical discoveries, but >> I have yet to write one which goes off on its own, asking questions or >> wondering how the heck this or that. I still hafta supply that part. >> >> Perhaps curious intelligent creatures created artificial non-curious >> non-explorer non-expanding intelligence? >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 21:03:47 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:03:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. Would you please provide a link for your paper? Anything on psychology I would be interested in. bill w On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > If you want a summary of what was discussed back in the early days of > the list, it's hard to beat Charles Stross's Accelerando. He was on > the list, might still be for all I know. > > Computronium, Matrioshka brain, planet disintegrating, it's all there. > Even the exchanges between Hans Maravec and me about the merits of > cryonics vs authors being reconstructed from their works was turned > into a plot element toward the end. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain > > The current topic is that we might have seen one of them. Tabby's > star radiates no excess IR in our direction, and the light from this > star has dimmed by 15 percent in the last 100 years, not counting the > huge dips Kepler saw. > > Are we looking at something natural or are we looking at an alien > megastructure? A few months before the first paper on KIC8462852, I > published a design that just happened to radiate the waste heat from a > power satellite solar north/south. Observers looking edge on at a > system full of these would not see the IR. If you make the case that > aliens are dimming the star, what are they doing with the energy? > Even making the case that the power satellite band is only blocking 1% > of the star's light, that's a lot of energy. What could they be doing > with it? At 3% per year growth in energy, use, how far does that put > them ahead of us? > > Perhaps aliens have another way to cope with waste heat. In theory > you could dump it down a black hole. We don't think the universe is > filled with Dyson spheres because we don't see a lot of IR. But it > aliens have a way to get rid of waste heat besides radiating it, that > could be the answers to the missing mass problem. > > If this isn't enough, there is a group that claims to have seen > spectral shifts in the Sloan data for a couple of hundred stars in > classes similar to that of the Sun. They make a case that the cause > is big lasers and that it might be attempts to communicate in ways > that make it cheap on the receiver end. > > I have argued that the natural course for intelligence is to speed up, > which has the effect of inflating the distances between stars beyond > reason. Still, if this is the background cause for what we see out > there, why are there no exceptions? I.e., why are they not here? Is > the physics that restrictive? > > It's a topic which seems to have little interest here but the whole > business of moving into space was, long ago, an extropian topic. I > think there are only two people who are on this list and power > satellite economics. Now there is a chance that (as a solution to > energy and carbon) it might be done. > > Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 > year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. Could a > political political party be based on EP? > > Finally, are we living in the base reality or a simulation? This > isn't exactly an extropian question though it has been discussed here. > > > Best wishes, > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 00:20:18 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:20:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_origin_of_war An earlier version was up on kuro5hin.org. Unfortunately when that web site went down for good, the version was lost. If any of you happen to have saved a copy, I would appreciate you sending me one. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296 Best wishes, Keith On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:03 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 > year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. > > Would you please provide a link for your paper? Anything on psychology I > would be interested in. bill w > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> >> If you want a summary of what was discussed back in the early days of >> the list, it's hard to beat Charles Stross's Accelerando. He was on >> the list, might still be for all I know. >> >> Computronium, Matrioshka brain, planet disintegrating, it's all there. >> Even the exchanges between Hans Maravec and me about the merits of >> cryonics vs authors being reconstructed from their works was turned >> into a plot element toward the end. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain >> >> The current topic is that we might have seen one of them. Tabby's >> star radiates no excess IR in our direction, and the light from this >> star has dimmed by 15 percent in the last 100 years, not counting the >> huge dips Kepler saw. >> >> Are we looking at something natural or are we looking at an alien >> megastructure? A few months before the first paper on KIC8462852, I >> published a design that just happened to radiate the waste heat from a >> power satellite solar north/south. Observers looking edge on at a >> system full of these would not see the IR. If you make the case that >> aliens are dimming the star, what are they doing with the energy? >> Even making the case that the power satellite band is only blocking 1% >> of the star's light, that's a lot of energy. What could they be doing >> with it? At 3% per year growth in energy, use, how far does that put >> them ahead of us? >> >> Perhaps aliens have another way to cope with waste heat. In theory >> you could dump it down a black hole. We don't think the universe is >> filled with Dyson spheres because we don't see a lot of IR. But it >> aliens have a way to get rid of waste heat besides radiating it, that >> could be the answers to the missing mass problem. >> >> If this isn't enough, there is a group that claims to have seen >> spectral shifts in the Sloan data for a couple of hundred stars in >> classes similar to that of the Sun. They make a case that the cause >> is big lasers and that it might be attempts to communicate in ways >> that make it cheap on the receiver end. >> >> I have argued that the natural course for intelligence is to speed up, >> which has the effect of inflating the distances between stars beyond >> reason. Still, if this is the background cause for what we see out >> there, why are there no exceptions? I.e., why are they not here? Is >> the physics that restrictive? >> >> It's a topic which seems to have little interest here but the whole >> business of moving into space was, long ago, an extropian topic. I >> think there are only two people who are on this list and power >> satellite economics. Now there is a chance that (as a solution to >> energy and carbon) it might be done. >> >> Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 >> year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. Could a >> political political party be based on EP? >> >> Finally, are we living in the base reality or a simulation? This >> isn't exactly an extropian question though it has been discussed here. >> >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Keith >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:30:13 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:30:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something missing.Yeah > - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and feelings and > smells and tastes ?That's not what makes us human, other creatures on this planet have been able to feel and smell and taste for at least ?500 million years, they've behaved as if they had emotions too. It's intelligence that distinguishes us from the other animals and makes us human. > ?> ? > Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? > ?I see no reason you couldn't have both.? > ?> ? > If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the article. ?I think it would be easier, far easier, for us to make a emotional machine ?that a intelligent, certainly Evolution found that to be the case. ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Nov 17 12:42:41 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:42:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22c4c6f7-4e5f-6188-74e6-2647cfd61eae@libero.it> Il 17/11/2016 01:20, Keith Henson ha scritto: > https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_origin_of_war > > An earlier version was up on kuro5hin.org. Unfortunately when that > web site went down for good, the version was lost. If any of you > happen to have saved a copy, I would appreciate you sending me one. > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296 > Best wishes, Maybe this could make you happy: https://archive.is/mEA5a Evolutionary Psychology, Memes and the Origin of War By hkhenson in Science Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:46:24 AM EST Tags: Science (all tags) From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 13:58:33 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:58:33 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill Message-ID: >From Scott Adams blog: someday soon our technology will tell us how to eat, when to sleep, when to sip water, when to exercise, and even who to date. Once married, technology will tell you the best time of the month for procreation. It might even clear your calendar by rescheduling your day. The inevitable conclusion of all of these forces is that machines will someday make all of our important decisions. We are probably less than ten years away from that. ----------------------- BillK From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 17 14:35:55 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:35:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d240df$e7da1700$b78e4500$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 5:59 AM To: Extropy Chat Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >From Scott Adams blog: http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153301052341/working-for-the-machines# someday soon our technology will tell us how to eat, when to sleep, when to sip water, when to exercise, and even who to date. Once married, technology will tell you the best time of the month for procreation. It might even clear your calendar by rescheduling your day. The inevitable conclusion of all of these forces is that machines will someday make all of our important decisions. We are probably less than ten years away from that. ----------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ We become soldiers. Not just soldiers but buck privates. Boot camp is all about training thinking people to stop thinking, do exactly as the sergeant orders and to it quick-smart. If she does, things go well. If not, big problems. The successful boot camp graduate learns to put aside any other agenda indefinitely. She takes great pride in obedience and alacrity in carrying out her leader's orders. She is a joyful wet robot. My bride's company has a program where we proles get a version of Fitbit: it counts our steps. That is information I always wanted to have archived automatically; now I do. This little device has encouraging messages, such as "Good morning Spike! Let's get GOING!" and "Come on Spike! Take me for a WALK!" that kinda stuff. I must admit it feels a little like what a dog would say if she could talk, and we already know dogs are persuasive little beasts. An electronic monitor/companion is easy enough to foresee, as are the health benefits of having one. Dependence is a natural development. I think Adams is right on. It is already happening: the internet and smart phone have been like having 20 IQ points tacked on with the externalization of knowledge it offers. Those 20 points are addictive. Plenty of people will hand over their will to a carry-along device, and they can only become more capable over time. Their capability as a team (human/device) will increase as well. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:04:22 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:04:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The inevitable conclusion of all of these forces is that machines will someday make all of our important decisions. We are probably less than ten years away from that. BillK If people don't like it, they won't do it, unless of course their Facebook friends are doing it too. So diets and other fads will come and go as usual. No problem. And nonconformists will ignore them. What fads from ten years ago are still around? Five? People think they like structure but what they really like is freedom from structure. They are less like sheep than people like me think they are. (Is that sentence an oxymoron?). Or maybe they are for a while and then they follow something else. If machines are making decisions without being programmed by people, I am unaware of it. Over 60% of people are getting their news through Facebook - F finds out what you like and directs you there, creating polarization. Just btw. bill w On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 7:58 AM, BillK wrote: > From Scott Adams blog: > > > > someday soon our technology will tell us how to eat, when to sleep, > when to sip water, when to exercise, and even who to date. Once > married, technology will tell you the best time of the month for > procreation. It might even clear your calendar by rescheduling your > day. > > The inevitable conclusion of all of these forces is that machines will > someday make all of our important decisions. We are probably less than > ten years away from that. > ----------------------- > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:15:59 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:15:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: It's intelligence that distinguishes us from the other animals and makes us human. John It's a very fine line. I like this analogy: suppose a frog whose ability to jump is limited to 5 inches, vertically. Then that frog is put at the bottom of a staircase in which each step is 6 inches. Another frog who can jump 6 inches can go all the way to the top. So what looks like a huge qualitative difference between these two frogs is really a very small quantitative difference. Very fine line between us and apes. Is intelligence really just a quantitative thing, or are dozens of qualitative processes there too? Emotions can vary quantitatively but the biggest feature of them is qualitative - anger is different from anxiety, for example. I wish I knew enough about AI to understand how they are going to program qualitative states into a computer. I wish someone knew enough about animal emotions for us to compare us to them. It would seem that emotions are a much more fuzzy topic than intelligence, but perhaps our definitions of intelligence just are too limited to appreciate the nonquantitative aspects of it. I am not trying to define what a human is, or just how we differ from lower animals. I don't think we know enough for that yet. bill w On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?> ? >> I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something >> missing.Yeah - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and >> feelings and smells and tastes > > > ?That's not what makes us human, other creatures on this planet have been > able to feel and smell and taste for at least ?500 million years, they've > behaved as if they had emotions too. It's intelligence that distinguishes > us from the other animals and makes us human. > > >> ?> ? >> Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? >> > > ?I see no reason you couldn't have both.? > > > >> ?> ? >> If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the article. > > > ?I think it would be easier, far easier, for us to make a emotional > machine ?that a intelligent, certainly Evolution found that to be the case. > > > ?John K Clark? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 17:20:00 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:20:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. Is there a way to read it without sharing all my info? bill w On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_ > origin_of_war > > An earlier version was up on kuro5hin.org. Unfortunately when that > web site went down for good, the version was lost. If any of you > happen to have saved a copy, I would appreciate you sending me one. > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296 > Best wishes, > > Keith > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:03 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 > > year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. > > > > Would you please provide a link for your paper? Anything on psychology I > > would be interested in. bill w > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Keith Henson > > wrote: > >> > >> If you want a summary of what was discussed back in the early days of > >> the list, it's hard to beat Charles Stross's Accelerando. He was on > >> the list, might still be for all I know. > >> > >> Computronium, Matrioshka brain, planet disintegrating, it's all there. > >> Even the exchanges between Hans Maravec and me about the merits of > >> cryonics vs authors being reconstructed from their works was turned > >> into a plot element toward the end. > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain > >> > >> The current topic is that we might have seen one of them. Tabby's > >> star radiates no excess IR in our direction, and the light from this > >> star has dimmed by 15 percent in the last 100 years, not counting the > >> huge dips Kepler saw. > >> > >> Are we looking at something natural or are we looking at an alien > >> megastructure? A few months before the first paper on KIC8462852, I > >> published a design that just happened to radiate the waste heat from a > >> power satellite solar north/south. Observers looking edge on at a > >> system full of these would not see the IR. If you make the case that > >> aliens are dimming the star, what are they doing with the energy? > >> Even making the case that the power satellite band is only blocking 1% > >> of the star's light, that's a lot of energy. What could they be doing > >> with it? At 3% per year growth in energy, use, how far does that put > >> them ahead of us? > >> > >> Perhaps aliens have another way to cope with waste heat. In theory > >> you could dump it down a black hole. We don't think the universe is > >> filled with Dyson spheres because we don't see a lot of IR. But it > >> aliens have a way to get rid of waste heat besides radiating it, that > >> could be the answers to the missing mass problem. > >> > >> If this isn't enough, there is a group that claims to have seen > >> spectral shifts in the Sloan data for a couple of hundred stars in > >> classes similar to that of the Sun. They make a case that the cause > >> is big lasers and that it might be attempts to communicate in ways > >> that make it cheap on the receiver end. > >> > >> I have argued that the natural course for intelligence is to speed up, > >> which has the effect of inflating the distances between stars beyond > >> reason. Still, if this is the background cause for what we see out > >> there, why are there no exceptions? I.e., why are they not here? Is > >> the physics that restrictive? > >> > >> It's a topic which seems to have little interest here but the whole > >> business of moving into space was, long ago, an extropian topic. I > >> think there are only two people who are on this list and power > >> satellite economics. Now there is a chance that (as a solution to > >> energy and carbon) it might be done. > >> > >> Evolutionary psychology is another topic. It's interesting that a 10 > >> year old paper I wrote is still seeing a lot of downloads. Could a > >> political political party be based on EP? > >> > >> Finally, are we living in the base reality or a simulation? This > >> isn't exactly an extropian question though it has been discussed here. > >> > >> > >> Best wishes, > >> > >> Keith > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 17:25:38 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:25:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: "If parody alone can adequately render the reality of our times, only irony offers us the freedom and detachment that are the essential conditions of responsible analysis and action. "This is the final aesthetic meaning of The Glass Bead Game." (by Hermann Hesse) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 17 17:21:02 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:21:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] add a letter Message-ID: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> We are daily confronted with an alphabet soup of sexual identities. Now we get to add M for macrosexual. They have definition way wrong however, and I should know, being one: http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/new-sexual-identity-revealed-macrosexuals-%E 2%80%93-arousal-literal-giants This business about huge women is crazy wrong. A true M is one who gets turned on by MicroSloth Excel VBA scripts. Oh I have written some sexy ones. They practically call out "Oh baby, run me now." We will soon need to add J and P for those who get turned on by JavaScript and Python code. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 18:03:24 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 12:03:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] add a letter In-Reply-To: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> References: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> Message-ID: https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=987&q=world%27s+tallest+woman&oq=world%27s+tallest+woman&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1587.8869.0.9171.21.10.0.11.11.0.107.788.9j1.10.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.21.863.k01z0d4YAcw Some of these may be Photoshopped, but the one in the middle - two women in white - I've seen before and think she is 'normal' - real. Anyone who says that woman would not intimidate him is lying! fyi - my third wife was 6' and I've dated taller ones - current wife is 5' 10" (I am 6' 4") - but a woman two feet taller than me? No way. To her I would be 'cute'. bill w On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 11:21 AM, spike wrote: > > > We are daily confronted with an alphabet soup of sexual identities. Now > we get to add M for macrosexual. They have definition way wrong however, > and I should know, being one: > > > > http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/new-sexual-identity- > revealed-macrosexuals-%E2%80%93-arousal-literal-giants > > > > This business about huge women is crazy wrong. A true M is one who gets > turned on by MicroSloth Excel VBA scripts. Oh I have written some sexy > ones. They practically call out ?Oh baby, run me now.? We will soon need > to add J and P for those who get turned on by JavaScript and Python code. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 18:21:59 2016 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:21:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: <22c4c6f7-4e5f-6188-74e6-2647cfd61eae@libero.it> References: <22c4c6f7-4e5f-6188-74e6-2647cfd61eae@libero.it> Message-ID: Ah, thank you very much. It's interesting that it is linked from Azar Gat. I very much appreciate Azar. He arrived at the same place I did though an entirely different path. The links on his wikipedia page (which I put up originally) are very much worth reading. I wonder if you can also find what was at http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 The name was "Tunnel of Love." I wrote it while jailed for protesting the scientology cult. Best wishes, Keith On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:42 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: > Il 17/11/2016 01:20, Keith Henson ha scritto: >> https://www.academia.edu/777381/Evolutionary_psychology_memes_and_the_origin_of_war >> >> An earlier version was up on kuro5hin.org. Unfortunately when that >> web site went down for good, the version was lost. If any of you >> happen to have saved a copy, I would appreciate you sending me one. >> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/17/194059/296 >> Best wishes, > > Maybe this could make you happy: > https://archive.is/mEA5a > > Evolutionary Psychology, Memes and the Origin of War > > By hkhenson in Science > Thu Apr 20, 2006 at 08:46:24 AM EST > Tags: Science (all tags) From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Nov 17 19:41:50 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:41:50 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Il 17/11/2016 16:04, William Flynn Wallace ha scritto: > The inevitable conclusion of all of these forces is that machines will > someday make all of our important decisions. We are probably less than > ten years away from that. > BillK For common people, maybe. For important people it happen already https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/11/09/clintons-data-driven-campaign-relied-heavily-on-an-algorithm-named-ada-what-didnt-she-see/?postshare=5981479197388073&tid=ss_tw "Ada is a complex computer algorithm that the campaign was prepared to publicly unveil after the election as its invisible guiding hand. Named for a female 19th-century mathematician ? Ada, Countess of Lovelace ? the algorithm was said to play a role in virtually every strategic decision Clinton aides made, including where and when to deploy the candidate and her battalion of surrogates and where to air television ads ? as well as when it was safe to stay dark." I see a problem in this approach. First, it is not strategic; it is only tactics. It don't consider people has goals and will learn from past experiences. They will change their reaction to the same input in an attempt to increase their satisfaction (obtain their goals). The AI should be able to understand people mutable motives and develop a campaign program with policies aimed to obtain the goals of the people and the leader running. I think this type of AI will need a lot more work to be attained. From painlord2k at libero.it Thu Nov 17 19:45:13 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 20:45:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Past and current extropy topics In-Reply-To: References: <22c4c6f7-4e5f-6188-74e6-2647cfd61eae@libero.it> Message-ID: <1725ace9-4398-32a0-3abb-8fcd0f2329f6@libero.it> Il 17/11/2016 19:21, Keith Henson ha scritto: > Ah, thank you very much. It's interesting that it is linked from Azar > Gat. I very much appreciate Azar. He arrived at the same place I did > though an entirely different path. > > The links on his wikipedia page (which I put up originally) are very > much worth reading. > > I wonder if you can also find what was at > http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 > > The name was "Tunnel of Love." I wrote it while jailed for protesting > the scientology cult. > Best wishes, It is easy now I discovered the trick: https://archive.is/http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2007/10/30/18253/301 https://archive.is/Bs3Sx From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 20:06:53 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 12:06:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] add a letter In-Reply-To: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> References: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2016 9:37 AM, "spike" wrote: > We are daily confronted with an alphabet soup of sexual identities. Now we get to add M for macrosexual. I propose ambitiosexual: those who are turned on by being, or by others prominently displaying, copious and obvious pretentiousness, but who are perhaps turned off by actual talent and all the mundanities of following through to make any actual success meaningful. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Thu Nov 17 21:12:23 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:12:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] add a letter In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> Message-ID: <018c01d24117$4aeec160$e0cc4420$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] add a letter On Nov 17, 2016 9:37 AM, "spike" > wrote: >>? We are daily confronted with an alphabet soup of sexual identities. Now we get to add M for macrosexual. >...I propose ambitiosexual: those who are turned on by being, or by others prominently displaying, copious and obvious pretentiousness, but who are perhaps turned off by actual talent and all the mundanities of following through to make any actual success meaningful? Adrian The whole concept reminds me of something that took place here some time ago. We had a poster some time ago who had some mental issues going on apparently, so I was reluctant to take him off moderation. He only posted a few times; I don?t even recall his name. This all took place about the time Second Life was getting big headlines on SlashDot and the geek sites. This poster was really an upfront guy (if he was male (I will assume it.)) He explained that he was just not turned on by real life women, but rather only those proportioned in such a way that it really didn?t exist in the real world. His solution: Second Life. He learned how to do computer graphics well enough that he created an avatar in Second Life, and used it in another sim, proportioned to his liking. He posted me offlist and invited me to come over for a look. When I saw what he had constructed, I had to agree, wwwwooooo Jaysus, ja you are unlikely to find that in the real world. I have never seen it, and I don?t expect to in the future, at least not outside a computer sim. In the excellent movie The Truman Show, you may recall how the actress playing his high school girlfriend and Truman fell in love, so Cristof whisked her away to Fiji and substituted Laura Linney (this is a bad thing? (I would trade a dozen Natascha McElhones for one Laura Linney (but Truman and Natasha loved each other, so?))) Truman has no photo of Natascha, so he is always buying women?s magazines and trying to piece together a woman from photos that would remind him of her. Eventually he creates a composite that is close. Wasn?t that a great scene? He is off to Fiji. That guy who was posting to ExI reminded me in a way of Truman?s struggle. He knew what he saw wasn?t what he wanted, but he realized he had to create what he was looking for, and live in that fantasy world, a sim. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 21:50:40 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:50:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] add a letter In-Reply-To: <018c01d24117$4aeec160$e0cc4420$@att.net> References: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> <018c01d24117$4aeec160$e0cc4420$@att.net> Message-ID: .I propose ambitiosexual: those who are turned on by being, or by others prominently displaying, copious and obvious pretentiousness, but who are perhaps turned off by actual talent and all the mundanities of following through to make any actual success meaningful? Adrian Would you then condemn the entirety of popular culture? bill w On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:12 PM, spike wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] add a letter > > > > On Nov 17, 2016 9:37 AM, "spike" wrote: > >>? We are daily confronted with an alphabet soup of sexual identities. > Now we get to add M for macrosexual. > > >...I propose ambitiosexual: those who are turned on by being, or by > others prominently displaying, copious and obvious pretentiousness, but who > are perhaps turned off by actual talent and all the mundanities of > following through to make any actual success meaningful? Adrian > > > > The whole concept reminds me of something that took place here some time > ago. > > We had a poster some time ago who had some mental issues going on > apparently, so I was reluctant to take him off moderation. He only posted > a few times; I don?t even recall his name. This all took place about the > time Second Life was getting big headlines on SlashDot and the geek sites. > > This poster was really an upfront guy (if he was male (I will assume > it.)) He explained that he was just not turned on by real life women, but > rather only those proportioned in such a way that it really didn?t exist in > the real world. His solution: Second Life. He learned how to do computer > graphics well enough that he created an avatar in Second Life, and used it > in another sim, proportioned to his liking. He posted me offlist and > invited me to come over for a look. When I saw what he had constructed, I > had to agree, wwwwooooo Jaysus, ja you are unlikely to find that in the > real world. I have never seen it, and I don?t expect to in the future, at > least not outside a computer sim. > > In the excellent movie The Truman Show, you may recall how the actress > playing his high school girlfriend and Truman fell in love, so Cristof > whisked her away to Fiji and substituted Laura Linney (this is a bad > thing? (I would trade a dozen Natascha McElhones for one Laura Linney (but > Truman and Natasha loved each other, so?))) Truman has no photo of > Natascha, so he is always buying women?s magazines and trying to piece > together a woman from photos that would remind him of her. Eventually he > creates a composite that is close. Wasn?t that a great scene? He is off > to Fiji. > > That guy who was posting to ExI reminded me in a way of Truman?s > struggle. He knew what he saw wasn?t what he wanted, but he realized he > had to create what he was looking for, and live in that fantasy world, a > sim. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 22:35:31 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:35:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] add a letter In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01d240f6$f8feb420$eafc1c60$@att.net> <018c01d24117$4aeec160$e0cc4420$@att.net> Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2016 1:52 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > Would you then condemn the entirety of popular culture? bill w Not all of it. Quite a few of the more successful pop performers do put in honest work to capitalize on their successes, and have their share of unglamorous moments. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 22:56:54 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:56:54 +1100 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: If the behaviour associated with emotions can be replicated by a computer, the emotions should follow. Otherwise, we would be able to make a partial philosophical zombie, which is logically problematic: On 18 November 2016 at 02:15, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > It's intelligence that distinguishes us from the other animals and makes > us human. John > > It's a very fine line. I like this analogy: suppose a frog whose ability > to jump is limited to 5 inches, vertically. Then that frog is put at the > bottom of a staircase in which each step is 6 inches. Another frog who can > jump 6 inches can go all the way to the top. > > So what looks like a huge qualitative difference between these two frogs > is really a very small quantitative difference. > > Very fine line between us and apes. > > Is intelligence really just a quantitative thing, or are dozens of > qualitative processes there too? Emotions can vary quantitatively but the > biggest feature of them is qualitative - anger is different from anxiety, > for example. > > I wish I knew enough about AI to understand how they are going to program > qualitative states into a computer. > > I wish someone knew enough about animal emotions for us to compare us to > them. > > It would seem that emotions are a much more fuzzy topic than intelligence, > but perhaps our definitions of intelligence just are too limited to > appreciate the nonquantitative aspects of it. > > I am not trying to define what a human is, or just how we differ from > lower animals. I don't think we know enough for that yet. > > bill w > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>> I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something >>> missing.Yeah - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and >>> feelings and smells and tastes >> >> >> ?That's not what makes us human, other creatures on this planet have been >> able to feel and smell and taste for at least ?500 million years, they've >> behaved as if they had emotions too. It's intelligence that distinguishes >> us from the other animals and makes us human. >> >> >>> ?> ? >>> Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? >>> >> >> ?I see no reason you couldn't have both.? >> >> >> >>> ?> ? >>> If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the article. >> >> >> ?I think it would be easier, far easier, for us to make a emotional >> machine ?that a intelligent, certainly Evolution found that to be the case. >> >> >> ?John K Clark? >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 23:09:32 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:09:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: If the behaviour associated with emotions can be replicated by a computer, > the emotions should follow. Otherwise, we would be able to make a partial > philosophical zombie, which is logically problematic: > ?I think you have to separate internal feelings from overt behavior. Running, for instance, could signal fear or joy. Inferring an internal state from an external one is highly problematic. (If I understand what you are saying.) bill w? > > >> It's a very fine line. I like this analogy: suppose a frog whose >> ability to jump is limited to 5 inches, vertically. Then that frog is put >> at the bottom of a staircase in which each step is 6 inches. Another frog >> who can jump 6 inches can go all the way to the top. >> >> So what looks like a huge qualitative difference between these two frogs >> is really a very small quantitative difference. >> >> Very fine line between us and apes. >> >> Is intelligence really just a quantitative thing, or are dozens of >> qualitative processes there too? Emotions can vary quantitatively but the >> biggest feature of them is qualitative - anger is different from anxiety, >> for example. >> >> I wish I knew enough about AI to understand how they are going to program >> qualitative states into a computer. >> >> I wish someone knew enough about animal emotions for us to compare us to >> them. >> >> It would seem that emotions are a much more fuzzy topic than >> intelligence, but perhaps our definitions of intelligence just are too >> limited to appreciate the nonquantitative aspects of it. >> >> I am not trying to define what a human is, or just how we differ from >> lower animals. I don't think we know enough for that yet. >> >> bill w >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>> >>> ?> ? >>>> I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something >>>> missing.Yeah - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and >>>> feelings and smells and tastes >>> >>> >>> ?That's not what makes us human, other creatures on this planet have >>> been able to feel and smell and taste for at least ?500 million years, >>> they've behaved as if they had emotions too. It's intelligence that >>> distinguishes us from the other animals and makes us human. >>> >>> >>>> ?> ? >>>> Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? >>>> >>> >>> ?I see no reason you couldn't have both.? >>> >>> >>> >>>> ?> ? >>>> If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the >>>> article. >>> >>> >>> ?I think it would be easier, far easier, for us to make a emotional >>> machine ?that a intelligent, certainly Evolution found that to be the case. >>> >>> >>> ?John K Clark? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 00:44:38 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 11:44:38 +1100 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: The behaviour would be similar to the behaviour of biological humans, who through interacting with you convince you that they are conscious and have feelings, even though you can't be absolutely sure. On 18 November 2016 at 10:09, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > If the behaviour associated with emotions can be replicated by a computer, >> the emotions should follow. Otherwise, we would be able to make a partial >> philosophical zombie, which is logically problematic: >> > > ?I think you have to separate internal feelings from overt behavior. > Running, for instance, could signal fear or joy. Inferring an internal > state from an external one is highly problematic. (If I understand what you > are saying.) > bill w? > > >> >> >>> It's a very fine line. I like this analogy: suppose a frog whose >>> ability to jump is limited to 5 inches, vertically. Then that frog is put >>> at the bottom of a staircase in which each step is 6 inches. Another frog >>> who can jump 6 inches can go all the way to the top. >>> >>> So what looks like a huge qualitative difference between these two frogs >>> is really a very small quantitative difference. >>> >>> Very fine line between us and apes. >>> >>> Is intelligence really just a quantitative thing, or are dozens of >>> qualitative processes there too? Emotions can vary quantitatively but the >>> biggest feature of them is qualitative - anger is different from anxiety, >>> for example. >>> >>> I wish I knew enough about AI to understand how they are going to >>> program qualitative states into a computer. >>> >>> I wish someone knew enough about animal emotions for us to compare us to >>> them. >>> >>> It would seem that emotions are a much more fuzzy topic than >>> intelligence, but perhaps our definitions of intelligence just are too >>> limited to appreciate the nonquantitative aspects of it. >>> >>> I am not trying to define what a human is, or just how we differ from >>> lower animals. I don't think we know enough for that yet. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:30 PM, John Clark >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>>> >>>> ?> ? >>>>> I agree with the logic of this article, but there's something >>>>> missing.Yeah - it's the rest of what it means to be human: emotions and >>>>> feelings and smells and tastes >>>> >>>> >>>> ?That's not what makes us human, other creatures on this planet have >>>> been able to feel and smell and taste for at least ?500 million years, >>>> they've behaved as if they had emotions too. It's intelligence that >>>> distinguishes us from the other animals and makes us human. >>>> >>>> >>>>> ?> ? >>>>> Would I give up those things for a higher IQ? What do you think? >>>>> >>>> >>>> ?I see no reason you couldn't have both.? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ?> ? >>>>> If you would, you are as cold as the machines referred to in the >>>>> article. >>>> >>>> >>>> ?I think it would be easier, far easier, for us to make a emotional >>>> machine ?that a intelligent, certainly Evolution found that to be the case. >>>> >>>> >>>> ?John K Clark? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> http://consc.net/papers/qualia.html >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 18 01:52:30 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:52:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] cryonics starting to catch on in jolly olde? Message-ID: <000d01d2413e$6c8eee90$45accbb0$@att.net> https://www.yahoo.com/news/dying-uk-girl-convinces-judge-let-her-body-000223 414.html Dying UK girl convinces judge to let her body be frozen GREGORY KATZ Associated Press November 17, 2016 LONDON (AP) - The teenage girl's instructions were direct: She didn't want to be buried, but to be frozen - with the hope she can continue her life in the future when cancer is cured. "I want to live and live longer and I think that in the future they may find a cure for my cancer and wake me up," the 14-year-old wrote to a judge before her recent death. She said "being cryo-preserved gives me a chance to be cured and woken up - even in hundreds of years' time." Her plaintive words convinced High Court Judge Peter Jackson to grant her final wishes in what he called the first case of its kind in England - and possibly the world. The judge said the girl had chosen the most basic preservation option at a cost of about 37,000 pounds ($46,000). The girl's divorced parents disagreed about the procedure, with the mother favoring it and the father initially saying no. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 548 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 10:43:29 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:43:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy Message-ID: Credit cards, smartphones and Google already record and analyse everything in people's lives. Soon we can add robot cars to the list. Where you go, where you stop and for how long, what you do in the car.... Oh, and it is listening for voice commands, so it will record speech as well. Is this tracking everything life really what people want? BillK From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 15:23:43 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:23:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Your Filter Bubble is Destroying Democracy Message-ID: The global village that was once the internet was has been replaced by digital islands of isolation that are drifting further apart each day. >From your Facebook feed to your Google Search, as your experience online grows increasingly personalized, the internet?s islands keep getting more segregated and sound proofed. Quotes: Our Facebook feeds are personalized based on past clicks and likes behavior, so we mostly consume political content that are similar to our views. Without realizing it, we develop tunnel vision. Rarely will our Facebook comfort zones expose us to opposing views, and as a result we eventually become victims to our own biases. As a liberal New Yorker, a few months ago my Facebook feed was filled with #ImWithHer or #FeelTheBern content in addition to some ?Obama is the greatest? headlines, which I was happy to see. I engaged with the content, and I was siloed as a result. When we moved to the debates my feed turned into discussions of Trump scandals and why we should all be with her. I only saw articles from liberal media such as the New York Times and Washington Post. Facebook is not alone in this. Google also filters the search results based on your location and previous searches and clicks. The social bubbles that Facebook and Google have designed for us are shaping the reality of your America. We only see and hear what we like. Until the election results, a little more than half of us didn?t realize that the other half of the country was frustrated enough to elect Trump. We all thought that Clinton would easily crush Trump this election, given how much crazy shit the guy has said. ------------- Then the bubble burst....... BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 15:41:04 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:41:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cool article by shostak In-Reply-To: References: <013301d24036$26596490$730c2db0$@att.net> <01cf01d24045$4aeca6f0$e0c5f4d0$@att.net> Message-ID: Stathis Papaioannou wrote: ?> ? > If the behaviour associated with emotions can be replicated by a computer, > the emotions should follow. > ?For a emotion like pain write a program such that the closer the number in the X register comes to the integer P ?the more computational resources will be devoted to changing that number, and if it ever actually equals P then the program should stop doing everything else and do nothing but try to change that number to something far enough away from P until it's no longer an urgent matter and the program can again do things that have nothing to do with P. > ?> ? > Otherwise, we would be able to make a partial philosophical zombie, which > is logically problematic: > ?I know for certain of one example of a being that is not a zombie, and if intelligence without consciousness is logically possible I don't understand why Evolution bothered to produce consciousness even one time. ? ?And yet I know for a fact that it did.? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Fri Nov 18 15:29:43 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 07:29:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cd01d241b0$96638600$c32a9200$@att.net> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:43 AM To: Extropy Chat Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy >...Credit cards, smartphones and Google already record and analyse everything in people's lives. >...Soon we can add robot cars to the list. Where you go, where you stop and for how long, what you do in the car.... Oh, and it is listening for voice commands, so it will record speech as well. http://phys.org/news/2016-11-autonomous-carsnew-oil-big-brother.html _______________________________________________ Oh BillK, this is potential for such terrific gags. Hack your buddy's car, mess up his voice command file such that you can switch its command vocabulary with a phone. He's on his way on a date, you switch the command set such that Oh BABY means stop, ah ah ah means swerve left and right, that sorta thing. Passers by will wonder Whaaaat in the heeelll? Spike's been messing with that guy's car... etc I mentioned the Truman Show yesterday. That film was made in 1998. We already saw privacy slipping away. Recently I bought four security cameras for my home that do a lot of stuff we had posted years earlier would be great: motion detection, temporarily recording video, pretty good resolution. These are battery powered, they can be turned on remotely, they are smaller than a baseball, silent, no LEDs unless you turn them on, wireless. Think about it: those would be eeeeaaaasy easy to hide in anything anywhere, easy. A clock radio, a closet, lots of places in a hotel room. If discovered, there is no way to know who put it there. That part of the vision has come to pass. Anyone can watch and listen to anything anywhere anywhen, and I forgot to mention: they are cheap. >...Is this tracking everything life really what people want? >...BillK We have no choice in this BillK. We saw it coming, it happened. We have no reasonable expectation of privacy, even where we expect it. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 16:25:16 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:25:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy In-Reply-To: <00cd01d241b0$96638600$c32a9200$@att.net> References: <00cd01d241b0$96638600$c32a9200$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike's been messing with that guy's car... etc OK, so this is off subject but I could not resist, as the following is something Spike would think of (and maybe do?): Way back when the VW bug got popular, a man's neighbor got tired of hearing how stingy the man's bug was on gas, so this is what he did: Late at night he sneaked over and poured a gallon of gas in the bug. The next week he poured two gallons, then three......His neighbor went crazy with love for his bug. Then the neighbor starting siphoning gas - first a gallon, then two gallons, and so on. The neighbor started going ape with frustration and worry..... There is no good ending to this story, but I have remembered it for over 50 years, so it must have something about it that clicks with me. Not the cruelty part, but............. bill w On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 9:29 AM, spike wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On > Behalf > Of BillK > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 2:43 AM > To: Extropy Chat > Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy > > >...Credit cards, smartphones and Google already record and analyse > everything in people's lives. > > >...Soon we can add robot cars to the list. Where you go, where you stop > and for how long, what you do in the car.... Oh, and it is listening > for voice commands, so it will record speech as well. > > http://phys.org/news/2016-11-autonomous-carsnew-oil-big-brother.html > > _______________________________________________ > > Oh BillK, this is potential for such terrific gags. Hack your buddy's car, > mess up his voice command file such that you can switch its command > vocabulary with a phone. He's on his way on a date, you switch the command > set such that Oh BABY means stop, ah ah ah means swerve left and right, > that > sorta thing. Passers by will wonder Whaaaat in the heeelll? Spike's been > messing with that guy's car... etc > > I mentioned the Truman Show yesterday. That film was made in 1998. We > already saw privacy slipping away. Recently I bought four security cameras > for my home that do a lot of stuff we had posted years earlier would be > great: motion detection, temporarily recording video, pretty good > resolution. These are battery powered, they can be turned on remotely, > they > are smaller than a baseball, silent, no LEDs unless you turn them on, > wireless. Think about it: those would be eeeeaaaasy easy to hide in > anything anywhere, easy. A clock radio, a closet, lots of places in a > hotel > room. If discovered, there is no way to know who put it there. > > That part of the vision has come to pass. Anyone can watch and listen to > anything anywhere anywhen, and I forgot to mention: they are cheap. > > > >...Is this tracking everything life really what people want? > > >...BillK > > We have no choice in this BillK. We saw it coming, it happened. We have > no > reasonable expectation of privacy, even where we expect it. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:04:49 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:04:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 Message-ID: The 2016 edition of the Terasem Annual Colloquium on the Law of Futuristic Persons will take place in Second Life ? Terasem sim ? on Saturday, December 10, 2016. There are two main themes: ?Legal Aspects of Futuristic Persons: Cyber-Humans,? and ?A Tribute to the ?Father of Artificial Intelligence,? Marvin Minsky, PhD.? This is a can?t miss event with stellar speakers and content. You are invited!... http://turingchurch.com/2016/11/18/terasem-colloquium-in-second-life-december-10-2016/ From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:27:49 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 12:27:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Scott Adams is a jackass. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:33:02 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 12:33:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, very sorry about the double post, but isn't it a bit redundant to post to a H+ listhost about how predictive/intelligent computers will perform an increasingly large amount of tasks for humans? I'm pretty sure we've all thought deeply about this topic, and I'd rather listen to an acclaimed scientist's thoughts on the matter than those of a bitter cartoonist who thinks women have it better because they get doors held for them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:00:28 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:00:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From Scott Adams blog: > > > ?> ? > Losing your free will to machines might sound scary. ?It might, if anybody knew what the ASCII sequence "free will" meant, but nobody does so it isn't. ? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 22:31:44 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 16:31:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > ? > Losing your free will to machines might sound scary. ?It might, if anybody knew what the ASCII sequence "free will" meant, but nobody does so it isn't. ? ?John K Clark? Yeah, OK, but as libertarians we know what it means when we are given no options but what someone or something else has dictated. bill w On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: > > From Scott Adams blog: >> >> > > >> ?> ? >> Losing your free will to machines might sound scary. > > > ?It might, if anybody knew what the ASCII sequence "free will" meant, but > nobody does so it isn't. ? > > > ?John K Clark? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 23:02:06 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:02:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 5:31 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Yeah, OK, but as libertarians we know what it means when we are given no > options but what someone or something else has dictated. > If one elects to use technology that "restricts" options then decisions are being delegated voluntarily. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 23:12:13 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:12:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If one elects to use technology that "restricts" options then decisions are being delegated voluntarily. -Dave *This seems to be a tautology - 'elects' equals 'voluntary'. Yes, I do sometimes delegate to my wife what's for supper. If I restrict my own options, there is no libertarian problem.* *So your point is..........?* *bill w* On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 5:31 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Yeah, OK, but as libertarians we know what it means when we are given no >> options but what someone or something else has dictated. >> > > If one elects to use technology that "restricts" options then decisions > are being delegated voluntarily. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 23:36:53 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:36:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > So your point is..........? Obvious? :-) Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use technology, free will isn't at play. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 00:49:24 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:49:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Obvious? :-) Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use technology, free will isn't at play. -Dave ?I guess I lost something somewhere. What does technology have to do with free will? OH, maybe the comment about machines making decisions for you. Amazon's software suggests books based on ones you have bought from them. I have bought quite a few books this way, letting their recommendations guide me. And why not? Most of the ones I've bought were worth the money. Sure, I could have found them, perhaps, by myself, but simple positive reinforcement has led me to use their suggestions, though certainly not for every book I buy. What does free will have to do with it? Nothing, really. I am not surrendering anything to their software. I like it and I use it. Period. Now if this was a school class and I had to read what the teacher said, then I have little free will in the matter, and it doesn't matter that it's a person rather than a machine. Based on 'likes' Facebook directs users to news sites, either conservative or liberal (don't think it's more nuanced than that, but I don't really know). I can see a danger in everyone letting the software direct their newsreading sources. But there are so many other sources out there to choose from once you leave Facebook. Pick your bias. I don't doubt but what somewhere on the web are reviews telling us just what bias occurs with which source - a good thing. It seems to me that the only danger here is people voluntarily giving up their freedom of choices for a guaranteed result. Another way of saying this is that everyone needs a streak of contrariness in them. Skepticism. Once again we have to bemoan the fact that this kind of thinking is not taught in schools. That I know of. Anyone out there know of critical thinking courses below college? On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 5:36 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> So your point is..........? > > > Obvious? :-) Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use > technology, free will isn't at play. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Fri Nov 18 12:53:47 2016 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 12:53:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Robot cars = even less privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8762DAC1-FDAA-4B59-87C0-0019DF5165D3@gmu.edu> Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2016, at 5:44 AM, BillK wrote: > > Credit cards, smartphones and Google already record and analyse > everything in people's lives. > > Soon we can add robot cars to the list. Where you go, where you stop > and for how long, what you do in the car.... Oh, and it is listening > for voice commands, so it will record speech as well. > > > > Is this tracking everything life really what people want? > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 17:44:10 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:44:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: ?>? > Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use technology, > free will isn't at play. > ?Even if somebody *is* holding a gun to your head and tells you to pick X and not Y ?and you do indeed pick X you have done so because under those circumstances you wanted to pick X. Yes, if the circumstances were different, like not having a gun to your head, you might have wanted to do something else, but they weren't so you didn't. William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com > ?> ? > What does technology have to do with free will? ?Nothing, and it's not just technology. Until somebody coherently explains what ?"free will" means it has nothing to do with anything. ?I'm not asking for anything as ambitious as a proof the humans have (or haven't) free will, I just want to know what the hell the term means. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:19:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:19:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just want to know what the hell the term means. John John K Clark ? On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:44 AM, John Clark wrote: > Dave Sill wrote: > > ?>? >> Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use technology, >> free will isn't at play. >> > > ?Even if somebody *is* holding a gun to your head and tells you to pick X > and not Y ?and you do indeed pick X you have done so because under those > circumstances you wanted to pick X. Yes, if the circumstances were > different, like not having a gun to your head, you might have wanted to do > something else, but they weren't so you didn't. > > > William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com > > >> ?> ? >> What does technology have to do with free will? > > > ?Nothing, and it's not just technology. Until somebody coherently explains > what ?"free will" means it has nothing to do with anything. > > ?I'm not asking for anything as ambitious as a proof the humans have (or > haven't) free will, I just want to know what the hell the term means. > > John K Clark ? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:29:30 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:29:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (sorry, I did it again - sent before I was ready) I just want to know what the hell the term means. John K Clark ? I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. If we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, then there is no room for sin, and sin is the basis of the religion: Adam and Eve sinned and it has to be their choice or there is no justification for eviction from Eden. Add to it the doctrine that their sin infected every single human since, and we have original sin; ergo, babies are born lacking a state of grace (necessary to go to heaven) and must be saved by their own choice.(here sects disagree about baptism, immersion, etc.) So free will is necessary for the very bases of this religion. Best I can do, I think. Consult a philosophical dictionary for more. I don't believe in any of it. "I did not mean to do that" means "I wish I had not done that". bill w On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 12:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I just want to know what the hell the term means. John > > John K Clark ? > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 11:44 AM, John Clark wrote: > >> Dave Sill wrote: >> >> ?>? >>> Unless someone holding a gun to your head and making you use >>> technology, free will isn't at play. >>> >> >> ?Even if somebody *is* holding a gun to your head and tells you to pick >> X and not Y ?and you do indeed pick X you have done so because under those >> circumstances you wanted to pick X. Yes, if the circumstances were >> different, like not having a gun to your head, you might have wanted to do >> something else, but they weren't so you didn't. >> >> >> William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com >> >> >>> ?> ? >>> What does technology have to do with free will? >> >> >> ?Nothing, and it's not just technology. Until somebody coherently >> explains what ?"free will" means it has nothing to do with anything. >> >> ?I'm not asking for anything as ambitious as a proof the humans have (or >> haven't) free will, I just want to know what the hell the term means. >> >> John K Clark ? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:47:40 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:47:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 November 2016 at 18:29, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. If > we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, then > there is no room for sin, and sin is the basis of the religion: Adam and > Eve sinned and it has to be their choice or there is no justification for > eviction from Eden. > > Add to it the doctrine that their sin infected every single human since, and > we have original sin; ergo, babies are born lacking a state of grace > (necessary to go to heaven) and must be saved > by their own choice.(here sects disagree about baptism, immersion, etc.) > > So free will is necessary for the very bases of this religion. > > Best I can do, I think. Consult a philosophical dictionary for more. > I don't believe in any of it. "I did not mean to do that" means "I wish I > had not done that". > There is also the large advertising / persuasion industry to consider. Their methods work very well at changing people's choices, as does advice, weather, feeling unwell, etc. Freewill just means that a selection of choices is available which people and circumstances can persuade you to choose between. Left to themselves, of course, people's choices are often made for unconscious reasons, driven by emotions and rationalised afterwards by the conscious mind. BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 19:08:12 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:08:12 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 19, 2016, at 10:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. If we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, then there is no room for sin, and sin is the basis of the religion: Adam and Eve sinned and it has to be their choice or there is no justification for eviction from Eden. This wouldn't explain how pre-Christians had ideas about free will, including folks like Aristotle. > Add to it the doctrine that their sin infected every single human since, and we have original sin; ergo, babies are born lacking a state of grace (necessary to go to heaven) and must be saved by their own choice.(here sects disagree about baptism, immersion, etc.) > > So free will is necessary for the very bases of this religion. Even if that's so, a problem for selling that point of view -- even people did already have some notion of free will -- would be selling them a two or more ideas by proposing yet another idea that they didn't already hold. So yours doesn't sound like a good explanation for the initial spread of these ideas. > Best I can do, I think. Consult a philosophical dictionary for more. Yes, good idea. There are active debates over this issue -- including over his what 'free will' means. > I don't believe in any of it. "I did not mean to do that" means "I wish I had not done that". I believe in free will, but I don't believe in any gods. And I certainly do hold to any religion-inspired metaphysics. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 20:22:53 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:22:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] article Message-ID: I found this very interesting. As a newbie re AI it was helpful. For you who are much farther along, it might also teach you something, or offer a different perspective. Includes applications to self-driving vehicles. bill w http://www.digitopoly.org/2016/11/17/the-simple-economics-of-machine-intelligence/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 19 20:25:19 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:25:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere Message-ID: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> Here is a fun-looking cleaner accidental variation on the proverbial version with the pony: http://www.ktvu.com/news/218423971-story This was a local event, but I was busy when it happened and couldn't go over to see it, dang. My intuition was that the cops who suggested this yahoo ride into that were irresponsible, even considering the guy is young and indestructible. What happens if he hits something hard, such as a parked car? Or slips on the pavement and goes down? Sure it isn't toxic but wouldn't a prole get lost or disoriented and suffocate trying to get out? This kind of thing looks like it would be cheap enough to make; a few dozen bottles of dishwashing liquid should fill a basketball court-sized room to a couple meters, ja? Then we could have the players wear SCUBA gear, and play. what? Soccer? Put down tumbling mats and do a much cleaner version of mud-rasslin? Co-ed nekkid capture the flag? Suggestions? This seems so novel, there just has to be a fun game of some sort in all this. The SCUBA gear makes me nervous however. Is there some safer variation where it involves foam up to about the waist, complete darkness, lotsa groping and carrying on, that sorta thing? Oh there is money to be made here somewhere, or failing that, fun to be had. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 20:51:36 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:51:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> Message-ID: Spike, I've been thinking about saying this for a while, but I think your use of the term 'prole' is presumptuous, overused, prejudiced, nebulous, and extremely offensive. I don't even have a huge problem with elitism but I think the way you throw it around is very distasteful, not to mention often unfounded--show me the part of the article that says this guy is part of the working class. Does being a goofball with a bike preclude one from having a white-collar job? Or is it just that having fun must mean you work in a factory? Seriously, I think you are setting a poor example as a moderator of the list, and I think that a random transhumanist with an IQ of 160, but who is the first person in their family to go to college, could join this list, and upon seeing your usage of 'prole', decide that this was a hostile, classist/elitist environment and decide to take their genius elsewhere. I implore you to use greater discretion with that term. Overusage dilutes semantic content, anyhow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Sat Nov 19 21:10:39 2016 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin D Hanson) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:10:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The article is quite reasonable as far as it goes. Of course if the gain in prediction abilities is smaller than this author seems to expect, the impacts will also be smaller. On Nov 19, 2016, at 3:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: I found this very interesting. As a newbie re AI it was helpful. For you who are much farther along, it might also teach you something, or offer a different perspective. Includes applications to self-driving vehicles. bill w http://www.digitopoly.org/2016/11/17/the-simple-economics-of-machine-intelligence/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu Future of Humanity Inst., Oxford University Assoc. Prof. Economics, George Mason University See my new book: http://ageofem.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 19 21:50:30 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 13:50:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> Message-ID: <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Hi Will, Your commentary suggests you haven?t read the book. A prole does not mean one without a white collar job. The proles are every human not in the inner circle or outer circle. Both of these circles are government workers, bureaucrats. The outer circle must be watched continuously, for they wield power to some extent, which is dangerous. The inner circle can turn off their surveillance temporarily. Proles don?t wield power so they are free to go without government surveillance, along with the animals. PhDs are proles, assuming they don?t work for the government. Any knucklehead can get to the outer circle, if they kiss the right butts and follow orders. Proles can wear collars of any or many colors. I have never been anything other than a prole. Point taken however; there may be many who have not read Orwell in spite of my stern demand that we do so, early and often. The man was brilliant; saw it all. His work has special meaning for today?s USians in light of the recent massive fumble in choosing appropriate leadership, much of this having to do with forced transparency. Ja? No more prole then, until you read the book and realize it isn?t a term for dumb or uneducated or poor necessarily, although I do realize it is often used that way. Sigh. Read the book please. Let us have a Nineteen Eighty Four discussion. We need one. spike From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 12:52 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere Spike, I've been thinking about saying this for a while, but I think your use of the term 'prole' is presumptuous, overused, prejudiced, nebulous, and extremely offensive. I don't even have a huge problem with elitism but I think the way you throw it around is very distasteful, not to mention often unfounded--show me the part of the article that says this guy is part of the working class. Does being a goofball with a bike preclude one from having a white-collar job? Or is it just that having fun must mean you work in a factory? Seriously, I think you are setting a poor example as a moderator of the list, and I think that a random transhumanist with an IQ of 160, but who is the first person in their family to go to college, could join this list, and upon seeing your usage of 'prole', decide that this was a hostile, classist/elitist environment and decide to take their genius elsewhere. I implore you to use greater discretion with that term. Overusage dilutes semantic content, anyhow. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:37:04 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:37:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Message-ID: I implore you to use greater discretion with that term. Overusage dilutes semantic content, anyhow. will Please read your own post. You used no discretion whatsoever in hurling ugly words at Spike when you simply did not know what you were talking about. He owed you no response at all; yet he refrained from reaming you out, which was richly deserved. Clearly you are not here to make friends, but still, a little restraint and a more gentlemanly demeanor would suit members of this list who seem to want to use posts for personal attacks. You are scoring no points with anyone. bill w On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 3:50 PM, spike wrote: > Hi Will, > > > > Your commentary suggests you haven?t read the book. A prole does not mean > one without a white collar job. The proles are every human not in the > inner circle or outer circle. Both of these circles are government > workers, bureaucrats. The outer circle must be watched continuously, for > they wield power to some extent, which is dangerous. The inner circle can > turn off their surveillance temporarily. Proles don?t wield power so they > are free to go without government surveillance, along with the animals. > > > > PhDs are proles, assuming they don?t work for the government. Any > knucklehead can get to the outer circle, if they kiss the right butts and > follow orders. Proles can wear collars of any or many colors. I have > never been anything other than a prole. > > > > Point taken however; there may be many who have not read Orwell in spite > of my stern demand that we do so, early and often. The man was brilliant; > saw it all. His work has special meaning for today?s USians in light of > the recent massive fumble in choosing appropriate leadership, much of this > having to do with forced transparency. Ja? > > > > No more prole then, until you read the book and realize it isn?t a term > for dumb or uneducated or poor necessarily, although I do realize it is > often used that way. > > > > Sigh. > > > > Read the book please. Let us have a Nineteen Eighty Four discussion. We > need one. > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On > Behalf Of *Will Steinberg > *Sent:* Saturday, November 19, 2016 12:52 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere > > > > Spike, I've been thinking about saying this for a while, but I think your > use of the term 'prole' is presumptuous, overused, prejudiced, nebulous, > and extremely offensive. I don't even have a huge problem with elitism but > I think the way you throw it around is very distasteful, not to mention > often unfounded--show me the part of the article that says this guy is part > of the working class. Does being a goofball with a bike preclude one from > having a white-collar job? Or is it just that having fun must mean you > work in a factory? > > > > Seriously, I think you are setting a poor example as a moderator of the > list, and I think that a random transhumanist with an IQ of 160, but who is > the first person in their family to go to college, could join this list, > and upon seeing your usage of 'prole', decide that this was a hostile, > classist/elitist environment and decide to take their genius elsewhere. > > > > I implore you to use greater discretion with that term. Overusage dilutes > semantic content, anyhow. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 22:45:14 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:45:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I just want to know what the hell the term means. > > I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. > If we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, ?Does God have free will? Either God set things up the way He did for a reason, in which case He ? was ? subject ?ed? to cause and effect just as we are, or he ?was not? ? in which case His behavior is random rather like the decay of a Uranium atom. Where does free will enter into this? Dan TheBookMan danust2012 at gmail.com wrote: > ?> ? > I believe in free will ?I don't know if I believe in free will or not because I have no idea what the term means.? ?I understand what "will" means, I want to do some thing and don't want to do other things, ?and my likes and dislikes are a function of both the state of my brain and the state of the environment; but I don't know the meaning of "free will" John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 19 22:38:47 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:38:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> Message-ID: <01c401d242b5$b1ebf370$15c3da50$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of spike Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere * Earlier I (the non-bureaucrat human) commented: http://www.ktvu.com/news/218423971-story >.This kind of thing looks like it would be cheap enough to make; a few dozen bottles of dishwashing liquid should fill a basketball court-sized room to a couple meters, ja? Then we could have the players wear SCUBA gear, and play. what? Soccer? Put down tumbling mats and do a much cleaner version of mud-rasslin? Co-ed nekkid capture the flag? Suggestions? This seems so novel, there just has to be a fun game of some sort in all this. The SCUBA gear makes me nervous however. Is there some safer variation where it involves foam up to about the waist, complete darkness, lotsa groping and carrying on, that sorta thing? Oh there is money to be made here somewhere, or failing that, fun to be had.spike Ok so let us think. Imagine some kind of game or simulated something or other which vaguely works towards the gray area between a virtual reality and meat-world reality. To make this worth doing, it would need to be other-worldly as all get out, ja? That leads to something that would really get the heart pounding, a shoot-em-up battle game or crime-fighter scenario, perhaps crime-doer, but those all make me squirm, peaceful type than I am. Furthermore, it suggests running around, which introduces the risk of collisions in any arena-type environment. So. heart-pounding action, limited visibility, limited traction, non-violent please, low risk if at all possible, hmmmm.. Imagine the setting. Tennis court perhaps? With gym mats? We have it enclosed by a chain-link fence with pads on the support posts, analogous to the pads they put around the goal posts on a football field. We supply some kind of padded surface, such as. inflatable pool floats or air mattresses should do it, and allows us to clean up and give the boring old tennis players back their court afterwards. Fenced-in, so we could blow in foam easily using an ordinary leaf blower and a venturi tube device introducing soapy water: result: fire-hoses of foam. Nothing here is expensive or high-tech, ja? OK now imagine, total darkness, perhaps waist-high foam (do we need the foam?) with players perhaps wearing VR devices of some sort which conceal his or her identity (that part is important.) We can imagine an LCD screen bent around like the shield on a motorcycle helmet, projecting inward. We can imagine a group of people in this dark arena interacting in some way, with complete anonymity, doing whatever they want and perhaps seeing whatever they want. What could we do with that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:11:51 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:11:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 4:50 PM, spike wrote: > ?> ? > Read the book please. Let us have a Nineteen Eighty Four discussion. We > need one. ?When I first read Orwell's book 1984 still seemed like a long time away?. One of the grimiest and most powerful scenes is when the the hero is tortured so much he says that 2+2=5, but he doesn't believe it and his tormentors know ?it? so he is tortured some more, then he reaches the point where he wants to believe that 2+2=5 but cannot, and this still isn't good enough so he's tortured again this time so expertly that he sincerely believes with every fiber of his being that 2+2=5, and he even comes to love his torturers for correcting his error in thinking that 2+2=4. ?It has one of the best closing sentence of any book? "He loved Big Brother." ? Also, Orwell's invention of the ? newspeak ? language where its impossible to express heretical ?ideas was both creepy and brilliant. I think 1984 is the world's best horror novel. John K Clark t -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:13:11 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:13:11 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 November 2016 at 05:29, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > (sorry, I did it again - sent before I was ready) > > I just want to know what the hell the term means. > > John K Clark ? > > I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. > If we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, > then there is no room for sin, and sin is the basis of the religion: Adam > and Eve sinned and it has to be their choice or there is no justification > for eviction from Eden. > > Add to it the doctrine that their sin infected every single human since, > and we have original sin; ergo, babies are born lacking a state of grace > (necessary to go to heaven) and must be saved > by their own choice.(here sects disagree about baptism, immersion, etc.) > > So free will is necessary for the very bases of this religion. > > Best I can do, I think. Consult a philosophical dictionary for more. > > I don't believe in any of it. "I did not mean to do that" means "I wish I > had not done that". > That explanation doesn't help. The problem is that "free will" is either trivial: you do what you want to do, if you wanted to do something different you would have, you're not sure what you are actually going to do until you've done it; or incoherent: your actions are neither random nor determined. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 19 23:04:42 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:04:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Message-ID: <01df01d242b9$50ba5f20$f22f1d60$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere I implore you to use greater discretion with that term... will Please read your own post. You used no discretion ? bill w Eh, no harm done. I didn?t take it as a personal insult. The message I intend is for us to read Orwell. Now more than ever. But since it came up, that whole foam accident in San Jose has me thinking in overdrive. Since we already steered away from shoot-em-ups, and we want to have a really fun possibly improper adventure that gets the heart pounding, well no sense fooling ourselves. We know where that is going to lead. So anyone participating in that sorta fun will pretty much hafta be proles (in the Orwellian sense) because the others would lose their security clearances and out they go. This gives an entirely new meaning to the phrase ?Proles and animals are free.? Regardless of how I see this, if we created some kind of partial VR partial meat-world something or other, it is going to edge toward an orgy, unless we intentionally work away from that. Only Orwellian proles and singles can play. It has been over 4 decades since I saw the pilot for the original Star Trek, but as I vaguely recall, the captain and his sweetheart get in a terrible accident and are discovered by a race of super-advanced beings who keep them alive. Not knowing what a human is supposed to look like, they put them back together as best they can, but the woman (I don?t recall about the captain) is horribly disfigured. But the alien smart things can deal: they arrange for him to see the only other human they have as a perfect beauty. Isn?t that about how that story went? OK so what if? we had an arena of some sort, foam optional (sounds like a fun option, but we don?t really need it) where players go in and present as anything they want to be, and perceive as anything they want to perceive, cool. Recall my mentioning a few days ago a guy who could only be turned on by a form which doesn?t really exist in the real world, not to that extreme. We could arrange for that guy to perceive any receptive other player in that form, nine feet tall for instance, or some form of morphological freedom. We can have the VR helmet transmit to others their willingness, preferences, and so on. Choosing of temporary mates could be done completely on the basis of touch, not on sight nor necessarily on sound. Reasoning: sound could be received, translated realtime, text, regenerated in any form. We could give anyone in that VR the voice and looks of Dr. Jill Stein but with the brains of Dr. Albert Einsten. Then we could play some cool gags, get some player really turned on, then switch it to where he perceives her with Jill?s brains and Albert?s looks. Hey, just because we graduated nearly four decades ago does not mean we must put away frat-house gags. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sat Nov 19 23:28:55 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:28:55 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Message-ID: <021f01d242bc$b2a29510$17e7bf30$@att.net> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark ? ?>?It has one of the best closing sentence of any book? "He loved Big Brother." ? Also, Orwell's invention of the ? newspeak ? language where its impossible to express heretical ?ideas was both creepy and brilliant. I think 1984 is the world's best horror novel. John K Clark Excellent! You both read and groked Nineteen Eighty Four. Thanks John, that makes my day. Now all your Orwell virgins, you know what to do: get reading! I will settle for Animal Farm, but 1984 is better. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:02:12 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:02:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: your actions are neither random nor determined. Stathis Papaioannou I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are determined. bill w On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:13 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On 20 November 2016 at 05:29, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> (sorry, I did it again - sent before I was ready) >> >> I just want to know what the hell the term means. >> >> John K Clark ? >> >> I suspect, without any evidence at all, that it comes from Christianity. >> If we are always doing God's will because that's the way God set it up, >> then there is no room for sin, and sin is the basis of the religion: Adam >> and Eve sinned and it has to be their choice or there is no justification >> for eviction from Eden. >> >> Add to it the doctrine that their sin infected every single human since, >> and we have original sin; ergo, babies are born lacking a state of grace >> (necessary to go to heaven) and must be saved >> by their own choice.(here sects disagree about baptism, immersion, etc.) >> >> So free will is necessary for the very bases of this religion. >> >> Best I can do, I think. Consult a philosophical dictionary for more. >> >> I don't believe in any of it. "I did not mean to do that" means "I wish >> I had not done that". >> > > > That explanation doesn't help. The problem is that "free will" is either > trivial: you do what you want to do, if you wanted to do something > different you would have, you're not sure what you are actually going to do > until you've done it; or incoherent: your actions are neither random nor > determined. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 01:08:00 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:08:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> Message-ID: <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> On Nov 19, 2016, at 2:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Please read your own post. You used no discretion whatsoever in hurling ugly words at Spike when you simply did not know what you were talking about. He owed you no response at all; yet he refrained from reaming you out, which was richly deserved. > > Clearly you are not here to make friends, but still, a little restraint and a more gentlemanly demeanor would suit members of this list who seem to want to use posts for personal attacks. > You are scoring no points with anyone. I don't want to pile on Will S. here, though I'd like to say that Spike is usually restrained and seems to think the best of each person here. I believe that's a good thing in a moderator. By the way, I think both Orwell's novel and Aldous Huxley's _Brave New World_ have much to say to people living now. As do Kafka's _The Trial_ and many others. I think it's unfortunate that these works, if they're read at all, tend to be read at the high school level by folks who have mostly see reading them as a chore to get a grade. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 02:05:20 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:05:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are > determined. ?There is nothing in logic that demands every event have a cause, quantum mechanics says true randomness exists and from experiment, specifically the observation that Bell's inequality is violated, we know that AT LEAST one of the following 3 concepts about the universe must be untrue: 1) Determinism (everything has a cause and thus nothing is random) 2) Locality (the future can not change the past and distance diminishes the strength and speed of an effect ?)? 3) Realism ( things are in a definite state even if they ?are not being observed) ? I'd like all three ? ? ?to be true but if I had to give up one of them (and I do) ? then? I'd give up determinism ?; ?t? o my mind it would be the least disturbing, and giving up ?realism? would be the most disturbing ?.? ?But the universe may not agree with me so for all I know all 3 may be false ?. ?If ? the Everett ? interpretation ? is true then ? from a point of view that ? can not ? exist, like the viewpoint ? of ? ? ? somebody ? standing outside ? of ? the multiverse looking ? back in ? at it ?, all 3 of those attributes, locality ? ? determinism and realism, ? can exist together; ? but ?say I said ? that is a viewpoint that can not exist ?.? ? So ?that's like saying if 2+2=5 then 2+2+2=7. ? >From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other words from any possible ? observer) determinism locality ? and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. ? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 02:43:31 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 13:43:31 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 November 2016 at 11:02, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > your actions are neither random nor determined. > Stathis Papaioannou > > I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are > determined. bill w > Some philosophers claim that free will is compatible with our actions being determined, but then free will becomes the trivial observation that we do what we choose to do, and if our brains or environment were different we would have chosen differently. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 02:49:45 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 13:49:45 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 November 2016 at 13:05, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?> ? >> I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are >> determined. > > > ?There is nothing in logic that demands every event have a cause, quantum > mechanics says true randomness exists and from experiment, specifically the > observation that Bell's inequality is violated, we know that AT LEAST one > of the following 3 concepts about the universe must be untrue: > > 1) Determinism (everything has a cause and thus nothing is random) > > 2) Locality (the > future can not change the past and distance diminishes the strength and > speed of an effect > ?)? > > 3) Realism ( > things are in a definite state even if they > ?are not being observed) ? > > I'd like all three > ? ? > ?to be true > but if I had to give up one of them (and I do) > ? then? > I'd give up determinism > ?; > ?t? > o my mind it would be the least disturbing, and giving up > ?realism? > would be the most disturbing > ?.? > > ?But > the universe may not agree with me so for all I know all 3 may be false > ?. > > ?If ? > the Everett > ? > interpretation > ? is true then ? > from a point of view that > ? can > not > ? > exist, like the viewpoint > ? > of > ? ? > ? > somebody > ? > standing outside > ? > of > ? > the multiverse looking > ? > back in > ? > at it > ?, > all 3 of those attributes, locality > ? > ? > determinism and realism, > ? > can exist together; > ? > but > ?say I said ? > that is a viewpoint that can not exist > ?.? > ? > So > ?that's like > saying if 2+2=5 then 2+2+2=7. > ? > From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other > words from any possible > ? > observer) determinism locality > ? > and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. > ? > The latter is what Bruno Marchal has called the "first person indeterminacy". The multiverse is entirely deterministic, but an observer embedded in the multiverse will see intractable randomness, because he does not know in which branch he will end up, and not even God can tell him. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 20 02:52:23 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:52:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan >?though I'd like to say that Spike is usually restrained and seems to think the best of each person here. I believe that's a good thing in a moderator? You are too kind sir. We are brothers and sisters, kindred spirits. In this season of thanksgiving, I am thankful for all of you. >?By the way, I think both Orwell's novel and Aldous Huxley's _Brave New World_ have much to say to people living now? Now more than ever before. >? tend to be read at the high school level by folks who have mostly see reading them as a chore to get a grade. Regards, Dan If any high school student can read Nineteen Eighty Four without being deeply moved, that person cannot be moved. He or she is not put together emotionally anything like I am. I would conclude he or she is not a kindred spirit. If that book fails to punch the reader in the gut, I would conclude that person didn?t read it or somehow didn?t feel it. I don?t understand how. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 11:45:13 2016 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:45:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:52 PM, spike wrote: > > > > If any high school student can read Nineteen Eighty Four without being > deeply moved, that person cannot be moved. > ### I must admit I nowadays avoid books like 1984, Fahrenheit 451 or Atlas Shrugged. Dystopia affects me. The words of Wesley Mouch cut too close to CNN copy (which I also avoid like the dickens). Rationally I do not see the world as particularly dystopian, regardless of current politics, but in extracurricular reading I still seek nourishment and hope. In search of lighter fare I read Cixin Liu's Three Body Problem trilogy, and the reading went from graphic Cultural Revolution descriptions to the multiverse as the mutilated corpse of a greater multidimensional reality slaughtered by godlike civilizations, who are driven by inexorable laws of game theory to inflict existential atrocities on the vermin, such as humans, who germinate in dark corners. Bummer. Cialdini's Pre-Suasion is quite interesting, even if the incredible effect sizes he cites in studies of minor message manipulations on human decision-making are, well, a bit incredible. But still, he shows credibly that the human brain is hackable under today's information warfare conditions. Back in the EEA humans evolved bullshit detectors suited to gossiping and politicking in small hunter-gatherer bands but now we have pros feeding the masses industrial-strength, highly concentrated bullshit that overwhelms many. It looks like my policy of studiously avoiding mass media has sound scientific justification. The Kindle Oasis though is a great pleasure to use. So light! But Cialdini says that light books (as in weighing few ounces) subconsciously evoke the notions of lightness and of lacking real substance that weaken their intellectual impact as compared to heavier tomes. Or maybe he is just trying to sell me a hardcover copy of his book? Stay ornery my friends, don't let anybody pull the wool over your eyes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 20 14:16:20 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:16:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> Message-ID: <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:52 PM, spike > wrote: If any high school student can read Nineteen Eighty Four without being deeply moved, that person cannot be moved. ### I must admit I nowadays avoid books like 1984, Fahrenheit 451 or Atlas Shrugged. Dystopia affects me. The words of Wesley Mouch cut too close to CNN copy (which I also avoid like the dickens)? OK I get that. I avoid dark as well, even Dickens. Dickens had both dark elements and personal redemption, so his work might be an exception, but I get it if people still avoid his work like the Orwell. That being said, Nineteen Eighty Four had so many profound elements in it, the work causes me to struggle to endure the darkness for its redeeming quality, in a way analogous to the recent movie Hacksaw Ridge, which I endured with much pain. That was perhaps the best anti-war film ever made. Oh but it is rough going, so hard to view. I recommend it, and suggest that every person who is elected to high political office be required to view Hacksaw Ridge, and to read 1984. Nineteen Eighty Four was told from the point of view of an Outer Circle, with all the characters coming from that POV. They had the persistent ignorance of and disdain for the proles (apologies Will) the constant fear of the Inner circle, the classic warrior mentality. The reason why I cite that Orwell work in particular is that information had become currency in that world. The control of information became the new wealth creation. Wealth and political power had merged. If one could control information to the public, one had arbitrary power. It feels like what happened in the US in the past year is that those in power lost control of information, which resulted in the loss of control of power. Forced transparency was the hammer hurled by the girl in the Apple Macintosh advertisement. >###?Stay ornery my friends, don't let anybody pull the wool over your eyes? Rafal Read Orwell like the Dickens. May information be forever free. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Sun Nov 20 15:02:41 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:02:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cool stuff to do for electrical engineers Message-ID: <9a5c152a-de17-866b-b8a5-ac8d5c3543ed@libero.it> I'm following this thread on Talk-polywell where they talk about Woodward research and it strike me this exchange of a few days ago http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=127659#p127659 Maybe Spike or some electric engineer here could find it weird and interesting enough to look at it. And maybe we could get that damned flying cars before we need a flying wheelchairs like Doctor Xavier. http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/search.php?keywords=power+supply&t=2215&sf=msgonly --- Frequency yes, I recall they wanted an electrical engineer with a master's to design a new power supply though. Apparently they don't come off the shelf at the lower levels Woodward needs at the frequencies a better thruster would operate at. ---- Did they ever specify what frequency range they needed, and into what capacitance through what inductance, and with the varying parasitic resistances? And for that matter if a perfect sine was best, or if they needed more a catenary*? *It needs a steady 2nd derivative of rate of charge, right? And if a catenary, to what loading profile vs 2pi? ---- I think it was talked about either in this thread, or in a previous MET thread. That was also where talk of the new dielectric and why it was chosen was. I might look it up later, but as I recall they wanted something in the gigahertz range or even higher, and with a few hundred watts, apparently they don't make power supplies like that off the shelf. There was also trouble with a piezoelectric material that could run that high too. --- Mirco From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:21:55 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:21:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: Oi sorry Spike old boy. I haven't read 1984 in 13 years and I was too young to really retain it. By the way Bill, do you know your text shows up as gigantic? Just wondering. It's quite jarring. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:47:34 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:47:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: Cialdini's Pre-Suasion is quite interesting rafal Hmm, I too am just finished reading Cialdini and Cixin. (Rafal, what else are you reading?) I too hate dystopias. I do not read downers if I can help it. Who needs them? (I can understand women reading romance novels since men won't provide them with much.) Point about Orwell - you cannot find anything or anyone is history like what he portrays. The reason is that the authorities did not bother with brainwashing individuals - what's the point? What he showed us what that this sort of thing is going on all the time but far more subtly, and the people who are doing it are not wallowing in power and laughing at us believing their doublethink, but doing what they think is right, which is to make money. And we tend to be happy with the goods and services they are providing (until they crash the market again and wipe out our retirement nest eggs). Will they use anything that works to manipulate us? What do you think? But another difference is that there are no secrets. Anyone in business knows about it, esp. those in marketing. Psychologists too, of course. Politicians are like many of us - tied to the past. Will they wake up and us the marketing techniques that are getting better and better to garner votes? What do you think? Government got blasted today in MS. Secret contracts a committee voted on, and then a total ban on legislators getting their hands on the details of those same contracts. This in a state widely known for corruption. Leading editorial in the newspaper excoriated them for it. Legislators cannot see all of the contracts they are voting on!! At least the newspaper is trying. To what effect? Probably little to none. The average citizen has no idea of what to do to change these things. Vote for another white male Baptist conservative Republican is what they do. And trust them. How many times must 'Wolf!' be cried before change occurs? At least in the last election (sorry!) the voters, many of them for sure, were not apathetic. We need more of that. bill w On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 8:16 AM, spike wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *Rafal Smigrodzki > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere > > > > > > > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:52 PM, spike wrote: > > > > If any high school student can read Nineteen Eighty Four without being > deeply moved, that person cannot be moved. > > > > ### I must admit I nowadays avoid books like 1984, Fahrenheit 451 or Atlas > Shrugged. Dystopia affects me. The words of Wesley Mouch cut too close to > CNN copy (which I also avoid like the dickens)? > > > > > > OK I get that. I avoid dark as well, even Dickens. Dickens had both dark > elements and personal redemption, so his work might be an exception, but I > get it if people still avoid his work like the Orwell. > > > > That being said, Nineteen Eighty Four had so many profound elements in it, > the work causes me to struggle to endure the darkness for its redeeming > quality, in a way analogous to the recent movie Hacksaw Ridge, which I > endured with much pain. That was perhaps the best anti-war film ever > made. Oh but it is rough going, so hard to view. I recommend it, and > suggest that every person who is elected to high political office be > required to view Hacksaw Ridge, and to read 1984. > > > > Nineteen Eighty Four was told from the point of view of an Outer Circle, > with all the characters coming from that POV. They had the persistent > ignorance of and disdain for the proles (apologies Will) the constant fear > of the Inner circle, the classic warrior mentality. The reason why I cite > that Orwell work in particular is that information had become currency in > that world. The control of information became the new wealth creation. > Wealth and political power had merged. If one could control information to > the public, one had arbitrary power. > > > > It feels like what happened in the US in the past year is that those in > power lost control of information, which resulted in the loss of control of > power. Forced transparency was the hammer hurled by the girl in the Apple > Macintosh advertisement. > > > > >###?Stay ornery my friends, don't let anybody pull the wool over your > eyes? Rafal > > > > Read Orwell like the Dickens. > > > > May information be forever free. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:49:50 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:49:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: By the way Bill, do you know your text shows up as gigantic? Just wondering. It's quite jarring. will It must be the font that John Clark is using and I am replying to. I'll attend to that. And if someone can explain to me why some signatures show up grayed out as well as the text I enter below that, I'd appreciate it. bill w On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 10:47 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Cialdini's Pre-Suasion is quite interesting rafal > > Hmm, I too am just finished reading Cialdini and Cixin. (Rafal, what else > are you reading?) > > I too hate dystopias. I do not read downers if I can help it. Who needs > them? (I can understand women reading romance novels since men won't > provide them with much.) > > Point about Orwell - you cannot find anything or anyone is history like > what he portrays. The reason is that the authorities did not bother with > brainwashing individuals - what's the point? > > What he showed us what that this sort of thing is going on all the time > but far more subtly, and the people who are doing it are not wallowing in > power and laughing at us believing their doublethink, but doing what they > think is right, which is to make money. And we tend to be happy with the > goods and services they are providing (until they crash the market again > and wipe out our retirement nest eggs). > > Will they use anything that works to manipulate us? What do you think? > > But another difference is that there are no secrets. Anyone in business > knows about it, esp. those in marketing. Psychologists too, of course. > > Politicians are like many of us - tied to the past. Will they wake up and > us the marketing techniques that are getting better and better to garner > votes? What do you think? > > Government got blasted today in MS. Secret contracts a committee voted > on, and then a total ban on legislators getting their hands on the details > of those same contracts. This in a state widely known for corruption. > Leading editorial in the newspaper excoriated them for it. Legislators > cannot see all of the contracts they are voting on!! > > At least the newspaper is trying. To what effect? Probably little to > none. The average citizen has no idea of what to do to change these > things. Vote for another white male Baptist conservative Republican is > what they do. And trust them. How many times must 'Wolf!' be cried before > change occurs? > > At least in the last election (sorry!) the voters, many of them for sure, > were not apathetic. We need more of that. > > bill w > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 8:16 AM, spike wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Rafal Smigrodzki >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 9:52 PM, spike wrote: >> >> >> >> If any high school student can read Nineteen Eighty Four without being >> deeply moved, that person cannot be moved. >> >> >> >> ### I must admit I nowadays avoid books like 1984, Fahrenheit 451 or >> Atlas Shrugged. Dystopia affects me. The words of Wesley Mouch cut too >> close to CNN copy (which I also avoid like the dickens)? >> >> >> >> >> >> OK I get that. I avoid dark as well, even Dickens. Dickens had both >> dark elements and personal redemption, so his work might be an exception, >> but I get it if people still avoid his work like the Orwell. >> >> >> >> That being said, Nineteen Eighty Four had so many profound elements in >> it, the work causes me to struggle to endure the darkness for its redeeming >> quality, in a way analogous to the recent movie Hacksaw Ridge, which I >> endured with much pain. That was perhaps the best anti-war film ever >> made. Oh but it is rough going, so hard to view. I recommend it, and >> suggest that every person who is elected to high political office be >> required to view Hacksaw Ridge, and to read 1984. >> >> >> >> Nineteen Eighty Four was told from the point of view of an Outer Circle, >> with all the characters coming from that POV. They had the persistent >> ignorance of and disdain for the proles (apologies Will) the constant fear >> of the Inner circle, the classic warrior mentality. The reason why I cite >> that Orwell work in particular is that information had become currency in >> that world. The control of information became the new wealth creation. >> Wealth and political power had merged. If one could control information to >> the public, one had arbitrary power. >> >> >> >> It feels like what happened in the US in the past year is that those in >> power lost control of information, which resulted in the loss of control of >> power. Forced transparency was the hammer hurled by the girl in the Apple >> Macintosh advertisement. >> >> >> >> >###?Stay ornery my friends, don't let anybody pull the wool over your >> eyes? Rafal >> >> >> >> Read Orwell like the Dickens. >> >> >> >> May information be forever free. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 20 16:38:15 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:38:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: <007d01d2434c$7dfbb8b0$79f32a10$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >?Oi sorry Spike old boy. I haven't read 1984 in 13 years and I was too young to really retain it. Now is the time Will. It helps to read it again with respect to what you know now that you didn?t know then. Reading it after 40 is good. Speaking of after 40? I prefer to think of myself as Spike middle-aged boy please. Or even Spike late-youth boy. Or if we must have technical accuracy, Spike traces-of-yellow-left-in-the-white-hair boy. {8-[ {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 16:56:38 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:56:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other words from any possible ? observer) determinism locality ? and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. ? John K Clark? I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some things that possibly will never be proven. Someone spoke something like this: The universe is more complex than we *can* know. A million years, a billion years - we will never know everything. So I think I will hold on to the theories that please me, and why not? bill w On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On 20 November 2016 at 13:05, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sat, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>> I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are >>> determined. >> >> >> ?There is nothing in logic that demands every event have a cause, quantum >> mechanics says true randomness exists and from experiment, specifically the >> observation that Bell's inequality is violated, we know that AT LEAST one >> of the following 3 concepts about the universe must be untrue: >> >> 1) Determinism (everything has a cause and thus nothing is random) >> >> 2) Locality (the >> future can not change the past and distance diminishes the strength and >> speed of an effect >> ?)? >> >> 3) Realism ( >> things are in a definite state even if they >> ?are not being observed) ? >> >> I'd like all three >> ? ? >> ?to be true >> but if I had to give up one of them (and I do) >> ? then? >> I'd give up determinism >> ?; >> ?t? >> o my mind it would be the least disturbing, and giving up >> ?realism? >> would be the most disturbing >> ?.? >> >> ?But >> the universe may not agree with me so for all I know all 3 may be false >> ?. >> >> ?If ? >> the Everett >> ? >> interpretation >> ? is true then ? >> from a point of view that >> ? can >> not >> ? >> exist, like the viewpoint >> ? >> of >> ? ? >> ? >> somebody >> ? >> standing outside >> ? >> of >> ? >> the multiverse looking >> ? >> back in >> ? >> at it >> ?, >> all 3 of those attributes, locality >> ? >> ? >> determinism and realism, >> ? >> can exist together; >> ? >> but >> ?say I said ? >> that is a viewpoint that can not exist >> ?.? >> ? >> So >> ?that's like >> saying if 2+2=5 then 2+2+2=7. >> ? >> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >> words from any possible >> ? >> observer) determinism locality >> ? >> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >> ? >> > > The latter is what Bruno Marchal has called the "first person > indeterminacy". The multiverse is entirely deterministic, but an observer > embedded in the multiverse will see intractable randomness, because he does > not know in which branch he will end up, and not even God can tell him. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Sun Nov 20 17:01:34 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:01:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere In-Reply-To: References: <011f01d242a3$0c6dca70$25495f50$@att.net> <016e01d242ae$f3320510$d9960f30$@att.net> <66F5D845-76B6-4FCB-A9E7-E4604D0E88DC@gmail.com> <032901d242d9$21cc76b0$65656410$@att.net> <004301d24338$ab0e33f0$012a9bd0$@att.net> Message-ID: <00be01d2434f$c05e5250$411af6f0$@att.net> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ? >?Government got blasted today in MS. Secret contracts a committee voted on, and then a total ban on legislators getting their hands on the details of those same contracts. ?Legislators cannot see all of the contracts they are voting on!! ?At least the newspaper is trying. To what effect? Probably little to none. ?bill w On the contrary sir, this is progress. Now you will have legislators who will run on openness. No more ?We must quickly pass this bill so we can find out what is in it.? You will have MS legislators running on a platform of: Show us what is in it before the vote. Bumper sticker: If I don?t know, I vote no. That one will be elected. Good deal. Julian was right all along. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 17:20:29 2016 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 12:20:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2016 11:57, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: > > If you are going to throw quantum theory at me, I am defenseless. > > bill w > Hey man count your blessings, at least it's not about Trump! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 17:27:45 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:27:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] books Message-ID: Rafal said he was reading Pre-Suasion, so I thought some of the rest of you might be interested in some #1 sellers in closely related fields: A Field Guide to Lies: Critical Thinking in the Information Age Daniel Levitin The Organized Mind: Thinking Straight in the Age of Information Overload same author bill w (I will gladly receive others' book recommendations) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 19:01:51 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:01:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> ?>> ? >> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >> words from any possible >> ? >> observer) determinism locality >> ? >> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >> ? >> > > I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum > theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some > things that possibly will never be proven. > ?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school algebra and ? trigonometry ? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at least one of those assumptions must be. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 20:43:11 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:43:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at least one of those assumptions must be. John K Clark Sometimes we just have to assume things without good evidence. In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. When something better comes along, we may have to change our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. But for now, we have no good alternatives. We bend the assumptions we have too. We excuse certain behaviors by minors and by mentally challenged people as if they cannot have full intent. (I think this is ridiculous. They knew what they were doing.) Anyone want to get rid of the idea of determinism? Replace it with what? As for the math you talk about, how can algebra and trig be 'wrong' when they give answers that work in the 'real world'? bill w On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 1:01 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > >>> ?>> ? >>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>> words from any possible >>> ? >>> observer) determinism locality >>> ? >>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>> ? >>> >> > > > I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum >> theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some >> things that possibly will never be proven. >> > > ?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? > observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell > didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used > nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that > determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through > observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school > algebra and ? > trigonometry > ? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. > Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever > theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality > is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at > least one of those assumptions must be. > > John K Clark > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 21:29:13 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:29:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> ? > In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do > what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. > ? ? > Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, > ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they don't always. The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain ways and civilization would be impossible without it. ? > > > ?> ? > just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? ?> ? > When something better comes along, we may have to change > our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. > But for now, we have no good alternatives. > ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter others. ?If you can explain why ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I don't care if he's insane or not.? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 22:52:18 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:52:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? john I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in everyday conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', 'intuition', 'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to say, a more scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently educated. And if you don't, then welcome to my club! bill w On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:29 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> ? >> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >> ? ? >> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >> > > ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they > don't always. > The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt > somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something > similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain > ways and civilization would be impossible without it. > ? >> >> >> ?> ? >> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. > > > ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > > > ?> ? >> When something better comes along, we may have to change >> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >> > > ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster > because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and > only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter > others. ?If you can explain why > ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I > don't care if he's insane or not.? > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 23:15:47 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 23:15:47 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 November 2016 at 22:52, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in everyday > conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', 'intuition', 'gut > feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to say, a more > scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently educated. > > And if you don't, then welcome to my club! > An excellent source for philosophical musings is the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The freewill chapter is Quotes: ?Free Will? is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives. Which 'sort' is the free will sort is what all the fuss is about. (And what a fuss it has been: philosophers have debated this question for over two millennia, and just about every major philosopher has had something to say about it.) -------- The majority view, however, is that we can readily conceive willings that are not free. Indeed, much of the debate about free will centers around whether we human beings have it, yet virtually no one doubts that we will to do this and that. -------- BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 23:38:56 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:38:56 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. They are not logically problematic, even if they are wrong. For example, a "gut feeling" is a belief not fully based on rational evidence. We can argue that we should, or should not, follow a gut feeling, we can do research to see whether following a gut feeling leads to a good outcome, speculate on whether people have access to subconscious information that manifests in a gut feeling, and so on. But "free will" is nonsensical unless you use it in the trivial sense of "I choose to do what I want to do, if I wanted to do otherwise I would have chosen otherwise, and I'm not sure what I'm going to do until I've actually done it". That definition works, but it's not what most people have in mind when they use the term. On 21 November 2016 at 09:52, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > john > > I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in > everyday conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', > 'intuition', 'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to > say, a more scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently > educated. > > And if you don't, then welcome to my club! > > bill w > > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:29 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >>> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >>> ? ? >>> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >>> >> >> ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that >> they don't always. >> The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >> somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >> similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >> ways and civilization would be impossible without it. >> ? >>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. >> >> >> ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? >> >> >> ?> ? >>> When something better comes along, we may have to change >>> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >>> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >>> >> >> ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster >> because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and >> only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter >> others. ?If you can explain why >> ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >> don't care if he's insane or not.? >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Nov 21 03:43:18 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:43:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill Message-ID: In response to John's statement of the trilemma posed by Bell's Inequality: In the context of QM, the distinction between determinism and locality is largely epistemological. Determinism says that all effects have causes. Localism says all local effects have local causes. If the universe is infinite in extent, and that is the viewpoint that modern cosmology is leaning toward, then under GR, almost all of the universe is space-like separated from us. This entails that we cannot sense it or communicate with it by any known physical means. We can't even chronologically order the stuff that happens ?there" from the stuff that happens "here", so time becomes irrelevant. However if locality is false, then that implies that all that all those distant inscrutable events can nonetheless cause events here and now. I think that the notion that some local events have causes too remote for us to ever know and the notion that those same events have no cause at all are empirically indistinguishable and therefore redundant. Furthermore, one of the major loopholes in Bell's Inequality is superdeterminism which is the idea that *everything* that happens has been predestined to happen since the beginning of time including what variable a researcher chooses to measure. In that case, all the quantum weirdness disappears and the entangled particles know which axis you are going to measure their spin or polarization relative to because it has been scripted since the big bang and you can't go off script. With this in mind, I would rephrase the trilemma as: "locality, realism, or freewill; you can't have all three." With the understanding that freewill in this instance being precisely defined as the idea that you actually have a choice in what direction you orient the magnetic field or polarizer when you conduct a entanglement experiment. Stuart LaForge Sent from my phone. extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hasta be a pony in here somewhere (spike) > 2. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > 3. Re: hasta be a pony in here somewhere (spike) > 4. Re: Humans losing freewill (Will Steinberg) > 5. books (William Flynn Wallace) > 6. Re: Humans losing freewill (John Clark) > 7. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > 8. Re: Humans losing freewill (John Clark) > 9. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:38:15 -0800 >From: "spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >Message-ID: <007d01d2434c$7dfbb8b0$79f32a10$@att.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > >>? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere > > > >>?Oi sorry Spike old boy. I haven't read 1984 in 13 years and I was too young to really retain it. > > > >Now is the time Will. It helps to read it again with respect to what you know now that you didn?t know then. Reading it after 40 is good. Speaking of after 40? I prefer to think of myself as Spike middle-aged boy please. Or even Spike late-youth boy. Or if we must have technical accuracy, Spike traces-of-yellow-left-in-the-white-hair boy. {8-[ {8^D > >spike > > > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:56:38 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >words from any possible >? >observer) determinism locality >? >and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >? > >John K Clark? > >I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum theory >at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some things >that possibly will never be proven. Someone spoke something like this: > The universe is more complex than we *can* know. > >A million years, a billion years - we will never know everything. So I >think I will hold on to the theories that please me, and why not? > >bill w > >On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Stathis Papaioannou >wrote: > >> >> >> On 20 November 2016 at 13:05, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Sat, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>> >>> ?> ? >>>> I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are >>>> determined. >>> >>> >>> ?There is nothing in logic that demands every event have a cause, quantum >>> mechanics says true randomness exists and from experiment, specifically the >>> observation that Bell's inequality is violated, we know that AT LEAST one >>> of the following 3 concepts about the universe must be untrue: >>> >>> 1) Determinism (everything has a cause and thus nothing is random) >>> >>> 2) Locality (the >>> future can not change the past and distance diminishes the strength and >>> speed of an effect >>> ?)? >>> >>> 3) Realism ( >>> things are in a definite state even if they >>> ?are not being observed) ? >>> >>> I'd like all three >>> ? ? >>> ?to be true >>> but if I had to give up one of them (and I do) >>> ? then? >>> I'd give up determinism >>> ?; >>> ?t? >>> o my mind it would be the least disturbing, and giving up >>> ?realism? >>> would be the most disturbing >>> ?.? >>> >>> ?But >>> the universe may not agree with me so for all I know all 3 may be false >>> ?. >>> >>> ?If ? >>> the Everett >>> ? >>> interpretation >>> ? is true then ? >>> from a point of view that >>> ? can >>> not >>> ? >>> exist, like the viewpoint >>> ? >>> of >>> ? ? >>> ? >>> somebody >>> ? >>> standing outside >>> ? >>> of >>> ? >>> the multiverse looking >>> ? >>> back in >>> ? >>> at it >>> ?, >>> all 3 of those attributes, locality >>> ? >>> ? >>> determinism and realism, >>> ? >>> can exist together; >>> ? >>> but >>> ?say I said ? >>> that is a viewpoint that can not exist >>> ?.? >>> ? >>> So >>> ?that's like >>> saying if 2+2=5 then 2+2+2=7. >>> ? >>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>> words from any possible >>> ? >>> observer) determinism locality >>> ? >>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>> ? >>> >> >> The latter is what Bruno Marchal has called the "first person >> indeterminacy". The multiverse is entirely deterministic, but an observer >> embedded in the multiverse will see intractable randomness, because he does >> not know in which branch he will end up, and not even God can tell him. >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:01:34 -0800 >From: "spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >Message-ID: <00be01d2434f$c05e5250$411af6f0$@att.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > >>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace >? > > > >>?Government got blasted today in MS. Secret contracts a committee voted on, and then a total ban on legislators getting their hands on the details of those same contracts. ?Legislators cannot see all of the contracts they are voting on!! ?At least the newspaper is trying. To what effect? Probably little to none. ?bill w > > > > > > > > > >On the contrary sir, this is progress. Now you will have legislators who will run on openness. No more ?We must quickly pass this bill so we can find out what is in it.? You will have MS legislators running on a platform of: Show us what is in it before the vote. > > > >Bumper sticker: If I don?t know, I vote no. > > > >That one will be elected. Good deal. Julian was right all along. > > > >spike > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 12:20:29 -0500 >From: Will Steinberg >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Nov 20, 2016 11:57, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: >> >> If you are going to throw quantum theory at me, I am defenseless. >> >> bill w >> > >Hey man count your blessings, at least it's not about Trump! >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:27:45 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: [ExI] books >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >Rafal said he was reading Pre-Suasion, so I thought some of the rest of you >might be interested in some #1 sellers in closely related fields: > >A Field Guide to Lies: Critical Thinking in the Information Age Daniel >Levitin > >The Organized Mind: Thinking Straight in the Age of Information Overload > same author > >bill w (I will gladly receive others' book recommendations) >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:01:51 -0500 >From: John Clark >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > >>> ?>> ? >>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>> words from any possible >>> ? >>> observer) determinism locality >>> ? >>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>> ? >>> >> > >> I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum >> theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some >> things that possibly will never be proven. >> > >?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? >observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell >didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used >nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that >determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through >observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school >algebra and ? >trigonometry >? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. >Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever >theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality >is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at >least one of those assumptions must be. > > John K Clark > > > >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:43:11 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at least one of those >assumptions must be. > > John K Clark > >Sometimes we just have to assume things without good evidence. In the >absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do what they >did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. > >Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, just >like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. > >When something better comes along, we may have to change >our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. But >for now, we have no good alternatives. > >We bend the assumptions we have too. We excuse certain behaviors by minors >and by mentally challenged people as if they cannot have full intent. (I >think this is ridiculous. They knew what they were doing.) > >Anyone want to get rid of the idea of determinism? Replace it with what? > >As for the math you talk about, how can algebra and trig be 'wrong' when >they give answers that work in the 'real world'? > >bill w > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 1:01 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>>> ?>> ? >>>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>>> words from any possible >>>> ? >>>> observer) determinism locality >>>> ? >>>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>>> ? >>>> >>> >> >> > I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum >>> theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some >>> things that possibly will never be proven. >>> >> >> ?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? >> observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell >> didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used >> nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that >> determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through >> observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school >> algebra and ? >> trigonometry >> ? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. >> Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever >> theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality >> is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at >> least one of those assumptions must be. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:29:13 -0500 >From: John Clark >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace >wrote: > >?> ? >> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >> ? ? >> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >> > >?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they >don't always. >The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >ways and civilization would be impossible without it. > ? >> >> >> ?> ? >> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. > > >?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > > >?> ? >> When something better comes along, we may have to change >> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >> > >?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster because >he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and only if >doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter others. >?If you can explain why >?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >don't care if he's insane or not.? > >John K Clark >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 9 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:52:18 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > john > >I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in everyday >conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', 'intuition', >'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to say, a more >scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently educated. > >And if you don't, then welcome to my club! > >bill w > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:29 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >>> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >>> ? ? >>> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >>> >> >> ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they >> don't always. >> The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >> somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >> similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >> ways and civilization would be impossible without it. >> ? >>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. >> >> >> ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? >> >> >> ?> ? >>> When something better comes along, we may have to change >>> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >>> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >>> >> >> ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster >> because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and >> only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter >> others. ?If you can explain why >> ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >> don't care if he's insane or not.? >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Subject: Digest Footer > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > >------------------------------ > >End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 34 >********************************************* From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 04:34:29 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:34:29 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (It's getting difficult to format replies to these posts - Gmail in my browser defaults to top-posting and I can't change it). On 21st November 2016 Stuart LaForge wrote: "With this in mind, I would rephrase the trilemma as: "locality, realism, or freewill; you can't have all three." With the understanding that freewill in this instance being precisely defined as the idea that you actually have a choice in what direction you orient the magnetic field or polarizer when you conduct a entanglement experiment." It sounds like you are conflating free will with determinism. But there are those who would say that free will is consistent with determinism, or superdeterminism, because you still do exactly what you want to do; and in the counterfactual case, you could have chosen differently if your brain had been different. Whereas on the other hand, if your choice is based on a truly random coin toss in your head, by definition you have no control over this, so you have no free will. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Nov 21 04:59:33 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:59:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill Message-ID: <0hjxhall83ree2u528xnna7a.1479704373951@email.android.com> In reply to Stathis: No, I am not conflating determinism and freewill. I am placing determinism under the same rubric as locality because events that have causes too distant to detect or temporally order with regard to those events are epistemologically indistinguishable from events which have no cause at all. Therefore it makes little sense to list those two things as separate prongs of the trilemma. One could just as easily phrase the trilemma as "determinism, realism, or freewill; you can't have all three." And if determinism and freewill are indeed compatible, then you can kiss realism goodbye. Stuart LaForge Sent from my phone. From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 05:37:06 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:37:06 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: <0hjxhall83ree2u528xnna7a.1479704373951@email.android.com> References: <0hjxhall83ree2u528xnna7a.1479704373951@email.android.com> Message-ID: Why do you say "freewill in this instance [is] precisely defined as the idea that you actually have a choice in what direction you orient the magnetic field or polarizer when you conduct [an] entanglement experiment"? Why can't you "actually have a choice" about something if your behaviour is fixed by the configuration of your brain? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Nov 21 06:31:47 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 22:31:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill Message-ID: Stathis wrote: 'Why do you say "freewill in this instance [is] precisely defined as the idea that you actually have a choice in what direction you orient the magnetic field or polarizer when you conduct [an] entanglement experiment"?' I said that mostly to keep John Clark from wiggling out of the trilemma by claiming that freewill was too vague or undefined a term to be taken seriously. But I also wanted to specify that we are talking about quantum violations of Bell's Inequality rather than some sweeping philosophical generalization thereof, since Bell's Inequality does actually hold for macroscopic phenomena, which is what makes quantum entanglement so darn weird. Stathis again: 'Why can't you "actually have a choice" about something if your behaviour is fixed by the configuration of your brain?' Because if your choices were, are, and always will be fixed, there is no possibility that you could have counterfactually chosen any other options and therefore they were never really options to begin with. Stuart LaForge Sent from my phone. extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: >Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org > >You can reach the person managing the list at > extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: hasta be a pony in here somewhere (spike) > 2. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > 3. Re: hasta be a pony in here somewhere (spike) > 4. Re: Humans losing freewill (Will Steinberg) > 5. books (William Flynn Wallace) > 6. Re: Humans losing freewill (John Clark) > 7. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > 8. Re: Humans losing freewill (John Clark) > 9. Re: Humans losing freewill (William Flynn Wallace) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:38:15 -0800 >From: "spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >Message-ID: <007d01d2434c$7dfbb8b0$79f32a10$@att.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > >>? On Behalf Of Will Steinberg >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere > > > >>?Oi sorry Spike old boy. I haven't read 1984 in 13 years and I was too young to really retain it. > > > >Now is the time Will. It helps to read it again with respect to what you know now that you didn?t know then. Reading it after 40 is good. Speaking of after 40? I prefer to think of myself as Spike middle-aged boy please. Or even Spike late-youth boy. Or if we must have technical accuracy, Spike traces-of-yellow-left-in-the-white-hair boy. {8-[ {8^D > >spike > > > > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 10:56:38 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >>From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >words from any possible >? >observer) determinism locality >? >and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >? > >John K Clark? > >I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum theory >at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some things >that possibly will never be proven. Someone spoke something like this: > The universe is more complex than we *can* know. > >A million years, a billion years - we will never know everything. So I >think I will hold on to the theories that please me, and why not? > >bill w > >On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 8:49 PM, Stathis Papaioannou >wrote: > >> >> >> On 20 November 2016 at 13:05, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Sat, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>> >>> ?> ? >>>> I agree that no action is random, but maintain that all actions are >>>> determined. >>> >>> >>> ?There is nothing in logic that demands every event have a cause, quantum >>> mechanics says true randomness exists and from experiment, specifically the >>> observation that Bell's inequality is violated, we know that AT LEAST one >>> of the following 3 concepts about the universe must be untrue: >>> >>> 1) Determinism (everything has a cause and thus nothing is random) >>> >>> 2) Locality (the >>> future can not change the past and distance diminishes the strength and >>> speed of an effect >>> ?)? >>> >>> 3) Realism ( >>> things are in a definite state even if they >>> ?are not being observed) ? >>> >>> I'd like all three >>> ? ? >>> ?to be true >>> but if I had to give up one of them (and I do) >>> ? then? >>> I'd give up determinism >>> ?; >>> ?t? >>> o my mind it would be the least disturbing, and giving up >>> ?realism? >>> would be the most disturbing >>> ?.? >>> >>> ?But >>> the universe may not agree with me so for all I know all 3 may be false >>> ?. >>> >>> ?If ? >>> the Everett >>> ? >>> interpretation >>> ? is true then ? >>> from a point of view that >>> ? can >>> not >>> ? >>> exist, like the viewpoint >>> ? >>> of >>> ? ? >>> ? >>> somebody >>> ? >>> standing outside >>> ? >>> of >>> ? >>> the multiverse looking >>> ? >>> back in >>> ? >>> at it >>> ?, >>> all 3 of those attributes, locality >>> ? >>> ? >>> determinism and realism, >>> ? >>> can exist together; >>> ? >>> but >>> ?say I said ? >>> that is a viewpoint that can not exist >>> ?.? >>> ? >>> So >>> ?that's like >>> saying if 2+2=5 then 2+2+2=7. >>> ? >>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>> words from any possible >>> ? >>> observer) determinism locality >>> ? >>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>> ? >>> >> >> The latter is what Bruno Marchal has called the "first person >> indeterminacy". The multiverse is entirely deterministic, but an observer >> embedded in the multiverse will see intractable randomness, because he does >> not know in which branch he will end up, and not even God can tell him. >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:01:34 -0800 >From: "spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: Re: [ExI] hasta be a pony in here somewhere >Message-ID: <00be01d2434f$c05e5250$411af6f0$@att.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > >>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace >? > > > >>?Government got blasted today in MS. Secret contracts a committee voted on, and then a total ban on legislators getting their hands on the details of those same contracts. ?Legislators cannot see all of the contracts they are voting on!! ?At least the newspaper is trying. To what effect? Probably little to none. ?bill w > > > > > > > > > >On the contrary sir, this is progress. Now you will have legislators who will run on openness. No more ?We must quickly pass this bill so we can find out what is in it.? You will have MS legislators running on a platform of: Show us what is in it before the vote. > > > >Bumper sticker: If I don?t know, I vote no. > > > >That one will be elected. Good deal. Julian was right all along. > > > >spike > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 12:20:29 -0500 >From: Will Steinberg >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Nov 20, 2016 11:57, "William Flynn Wallace" wrote: >> >> If you are going to throw quantum theory at me, I am defenseless. >> >> bill w >> > >Hey man count your blessings, at least it's not about Trump! >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 11:27:45 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: [ExI] books >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >Rafal said he was reading Pre-Suasion, so I thought some of the rest of you >might be interested in some #1 sellers in closely related fields: > >A Field Guide to Lies: Critical Thinking in the Information Age Daniel >Levitin > >The Organized Mind: Thinking Straight in the Age of Information Overload > same author > >bill w (I will gladly receive others' book recommendations) >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:01:51 -0500 >From: John Clark >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > >>> ?>> ? >>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>> words from any possible >>> ? >>> observer) determinism locality >>> ? >>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>> ? >>> >> > >> I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum >> theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some >> things that possibly will never be proven. >> > >?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? >observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell >didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used >nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that >determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through >observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school >algebra and ? >trigonometry >? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. >Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever >theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality >is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at >least one of those assumptions must be. > > John K Clark > > > >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 7 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:43:11 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at least one of those >assumptions must be. > > John K Clark > >Sometimes we just have to assume things without good evidence. In the >absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do what they >did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. > >Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, just >like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. > >When something better comes along, we may have to change >our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. But >for now, we have no good alternatives. > >We bend the assumptions we have too. We excuse certain behaviors by minors >and by mentally challenged people as if they cannot have full intent. (I >think this is ridiculous. They knew what they were doing.) > >Anyone want to get rid of the idea of determinism? Replace it with what? > >As for the math you talk about, how can algebra and trig be 'wrong' when >they give answers that work in the 'real world'? > >bill w > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 1:01 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 11:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>>> ?>> ? >>>> From the viewpoint of any observer anywhere in the multiverse ( in other >>>> words from any possible >>>> ? >>>> observer) determinism locality >>>> ? >>>> and realism cannot all be true, at least one must be wrong. >>>> ? >>>> >>> >> >> > I have to give up here and stop. If you are going to throw quantum >>> theory at me, I am defenseless. I will add that we are talking about some >>> things that possibly will never be proven. >>> >> >> ?It's not a theory it's a experimental ? >> observation, Bell's inequality is violated no doubt about it. And Bell >> didn't even use quantum mechanics when he derived his inequality, he used >> nothing but high school algebra and trigonometry and the assumptions that >> determinism, locality and realism are true. And yet we know through >> observation that Bell's inequality *IS* violated. So either high school >> algebra and ? >> trigonometry >> ? is wrong or at least one of the 3 assumptions that Bell made is wrong. >> Even if quantum mechanics is someday proven to be incorrect whatever >> theory succeeds it will not change the observation that Bell's inequality >> is indeed violated. I don't think algebra or trigonometry is wrong, so at >> least one of those assumptions must be. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 8 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:29:13 -0500 >From: John Clark >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace >wrote: > >?> ? >> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >> ? ? >> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >> > >?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they >don't always. >The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >ways and civilization would be impossible without it. > ? >> >> >> ?> ? >> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. > > >?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > > >?> ? >> When something better comes along, we may have to change >> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >> > >?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster because >he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and only if >doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter others. >?If you can explain why >?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >don't care if he's insane or not.? > >John K Clark >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Message: 9 >Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 16:52:18 -0600 >From: William Flynn Wallace >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [ExI] Humans losing freewill >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > john > >I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in everyday >conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', 'intuition', >'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to say, a more >scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently educated. > >And if you don't, then welcome to my club! > >bill w > >On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:29 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> ?> ? >>> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >>> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >>> ? ? >>> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >>> >> >> ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that they >> don't always. >> The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >> somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >> similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >> ways and civilization would be impossible without it. >> ? >>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. >> >> >> ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? >> >> >> ?> ? >>> When something better comes along, we may have to change >>> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal system. >>> But for now, we have no good alternatives. >>> >> >> ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster >> because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and >> only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter >> others. ?If you can explain why >> ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >> don't care if he's insane or not.? >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: > >------------------------------ > >Subject: Digest Footer > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > >------------------------------ > >End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 158, Issue 34 >********************************************* From avant at sollegro.com Mon Nov 21 09:34:04 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:34:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality Message-ID: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> This is for all the math averse Extropes so they can get their mind blown by quantum entanglement too. :-) Grab some random coins from your pocket or purse and put them down. The fewer, the easier to count. Step 1. Sort through them and place those coins that are either dated from the last century or don't have an animal depicted somewhere on the back of them into your left hand. Now count the coins in your left hand and write the result down as total A and return those coins to pile on the table. Step 2. Sort through the coins and put those coins that either have an animal depicted on the back or are not silver-colored into your left hand. Now count the coins in your left hand and write the total down as B. Step 3. Now add A and B together. I can guarantee you that your total from step 3 will be greater or equal to the number of coins you have that are either dated from last century or not silver-colored. Because . . . well math! It doesn't matter how many coins you use or how many times you do this experiment because well . . . math! But this trick does not work with entangled quantum particles. It would be as if your coins were changing identity between Step 1 and Step 2. Is your mind blown yet? Here is a simple math explanation of Bell's Inequality: http://www.mtnmath.com/whatth/node60.html Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 11:05:45 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:05:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 November 2016 at 17:31, Stuart LaForge wrote: Stathis again: 'Why can't you "actually have a choice" about something if your behaviour is fixed by the configuration of your brain?' Because if your choices were, are, and always will be fixed, there is no possibility that you could have counterfactually chosen any other options and therefore they were never really options to begin with. I assume that I make choices because my brain is in a particular configuration, and that my brain is in that configuration because of the way the universe has evolved up to that point. When I say I could have chosen differently, I mean that if my brain had been in a different configuration I would have chosen differently; and my brain could only have been in a different configuration if the universe had evolved differently to the way it actually has. This is a counterfactual; all that is required is logical possibility. There is the possibility that I might make different choices given the same brain configuration, because there is some truly random element in my brain. This is in fact slightly disturbing, because it means I may make a choice at some point not because if my experiences and disposition, but for no reason at all. We can punish criminal behaviour if it is due to deterministic factors, but to the extent that it is due to this postulated random element, there would by definition be no deterrent effect, so punishment would be futile. If you used the term "free will" for this random component, then we might say that a person is not to be held responsible for their behaviour if it is freely willed, but only if it is determined. This, of course, is not how "free will" is normally conceived; which supports the point that it is an incoherent concept, and we are best to have the discussion using other, universally agreed to terms. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 11:18:41 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:18:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail Message-ID: On 21 November 2016 at 04:34, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > (It's getting difficult to format replies to these posts - Gmail in my > browser defaults to top-posting and I can't change it). Gmail sees itself as a general easy-to-use email client. Nowadays bottom posting is only used in old-fashioned mailing lists and Google appears to think that adding this option would confuse the millions of 'chatty' users. However, you can try a Google Labs work-around. In Labs, enable the "Quote Selected Text" extension. When enabled, if you highlight the text you want to quote before hitting Reply, the compose box will come up in bottom-post format, without the text that you didn't select. Usually it is best to edit long posts before replying but this can be done after the initial selection of the complete text. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 11:43:58 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 12:43:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 12:18 PM, BillK wrote: > On 21 November 2016 at 04:34, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> (It's getting difficult to format replies to these posts - Gmail in my >> browser defaults to top-posting and I can't change it). > > Gmail sees itself as a general easy-to-use email client. Nowadays > bottom posting is only used in old-fashioned mailing lists and Google > appears to think that adding this option would confuse the millions of > 'chatty' users. We are really old-fashioned dinosaurs... Sent from Gmail ;-) From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 12:08:45 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 12:08:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?World=E2=80=99s_First_Silicon_Photonic_Neural_Net?= =?utf-8?q?work_Unveiled?= Message-ID: Neural networks using light could lead to superfast computing. by Emerging Technology from the arXiv November 18, 2016 Quotes: Optical computing has long been the great white hope of computer science. Photons have significantly more bandwidth than electrons and so can process more data more quickly. But the advantages of optical data processing systems have never outweighed the additional cost of making them, and so they have never been widely adopted. That has started to change in some areas of computing, such as analog signal processing, which requires the kind of ultrafast data processing that only photonic chips can provide. The results show just how fast photonic neural nets can be. ?The effective hardware acceleration factor of the photonic neural network is estimated to be 1,960 ? in this task,? say Tait and co. That?s a speed up of three orders of magnitude. That opens the doors to an entirely new industry that could bring optical computing into the mainstream for the first time. ?Silicon photonic neural networks could represent first forays into a broader class of silicon photonic systems for scalable information processing,? say Taif and co. --------- They mention much faster processing, but not heat dissipation. I think the big leap forward in photonic computing will be that it provides faster computing with little or no heat being generated. So hopefully most of the Jupiter brain cooling problems will disappear. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 15:03:58 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:03:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. Stathis Great - I challenge you to do it. A problem with your definition of gut feeling is that it cannot be objectively measured. Only the person who is acting, he says, on a gut feeling, can call it that, and self-report on feelings is not scientific data. No objective measurement, no proper definition. For use in science, that is. People use these words over and over and when challenged cannot properly define them. I have asked thousands of students to define them and all they can do is to offer synonyms, which of course is circular. They just want to play "oh you know what I mean". So I challenge them with 'love'. Does everyone mean exactly the same thing when they use that term? No, they say. Then what does it mean when you say it? Perhaps something different from what your partner thinks you mean? Yes, perhaps. Very very fuzzy. (When a female hears "I love you" she may think "exclusive relationship",which is sometimes not what the guy meant when he said it.) bill w On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:38 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. > They are not logically problematic, even if they are wrong. For example, a > "gut feeling" is a belief not fully based on rational evidence. We can > argue that we should, or should not, follow a gut feeling, we can do > research to see whether following a gut feeling leads to a good outcome, > speculate on whether people have access to subconscious information that > manifests in a gut feeling, and so on. But "free will" is nonsensical > unless you use it in the trivial sense of "I choose to do what I want to > do, if I wanted to do otherwise I would have chosen otherwise, and I'm not > sure what I'm going to do until I've actually done it". That definition > works, but it's not what most people have in mind when they use the term. > > On 21 November 2016 at 09:52, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? >> john >> >> I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in >> everyday conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', >> 'intuition', 'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to >> say, a more scientific definition than is usual among the insufficiently >> educated. >> >> And if you don't, then welcome to my club! >> >> bill w >> >> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:29 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 3:43 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> ?> ? >>>> In the absence of compelling data, we assume that a person meant to do >>>> what they did, and use that as the basis for a legal decision. >>>> ? ? >>>> Determinism fits in here too: we have to assume it in criminal cases, >>>> >>> >>> ?Well yes. Nobody is saying that events never have causes, just that >>> they don't always. >>> The only useful purpose for criminal law is to stop someone who hurt >>> somebody else from doing it again and to deter others from doing something >>> similar; that is to say criminal law causes people to behave in certain >>> ways and civilization would be impossible without it. >>> ? >>>> >>>> >>>> ?> ? >>>> just like free will, even though both constructs are arguable. >>> >>> >>> ?I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? >>> >>> >>> ?> ? >>>> When something better comes along, we may have to change >>>> our way of thinking about people and re-write our entire legal >>>> system. But for now, we have no good alternatives. >>>> >>> >>> ?How about treating it as irrelevant if a person is a moral monster >>> because he had bad genes or a bad environment and instead punish him if and >>> only if doing so will prevent him from doing bad stuff again and or deter >>> others. ?If you can explain why >>> ?somebody is a monster that doesn't stop him from being a monster, and I >>> don't care if he's insane or not.? >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 15:15:58 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:15:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 5:52 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?>>? >> I can say nothing about "free will" because I don't know what it means.? > > > ?> ? > I do love someone who wants their words defined properly. Yet, in > everyday conversation, I'll bet that you use words like 'instinct', > 'intuition', 'gut feelings' and more and cannot give a proper, that is to > say, a more scientific definition > ?I don't demand a definition of "free will", an example would work just as well, better even. So give me a example where Bob had free will in situation X but had no free will in situation Y. And by the way, there are good definitions and examples of instinct, gut feeling, and intuition; I even understand what "will" means, it's only "free will" that has the problem. John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at att.net Mon Nov 21 15:27:05 2016 From: spike66 at att.net (spike) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 07:27:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006501d2440b$b7ccb160$27661420$@att.net> >... On Behalf Of BillK Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail On 21 November 2016 at 04:34, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >>... (It's getting difficult to format replies to these posts - Gmail in my > browser defaults to top-posting and I can't change it). >...Gmail sees itself as a general easy-to-use email client. Nowadays bottom posting is only used in old-fashioned mailing lists and Google appears to think that adding this option would confuse the millions of 'chatty' users...BillK _______________________________________________ Ja, cool thanks BillK. If it is a bother to bottom post, go ahead and top post, and mention it in the first line. The reason we requested bottom posting is to make sure we can figure out who wrote what, years from now when it is time to write your biography as the guy who figured out this or that, the guy who first proposed some wicked cool idea such as the virtual reality/meat world merger in the big foamy nekkid tennis court notion. I am surprised nobody has commented on that silliness yet. That sounds like a lotta lotta fun to me. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 15:49:30 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 10:49:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 6:15 PM, BillK wrote: > ?> ? > An excellent source for philosophical musings is the Stanford > ? ? > Encyclopedia of Philosophy. > > > The freewill chapter is > > > Quotes: > ?Free Will? is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of > capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among > various alternatives. ?If the agent is indeed rational then there were reasons, causes, why he chose X and not Y. If there were no reason for choosing X and not Y then he was irrational and his behavior random. ?There are only 2 possibilities, you did what you did for a reason or you did what you did for no reason. You're either a roulette wheel or a ? ?c uckoo clock. > ?> ? > Indeed, much of the debate about free will centers > ? ? > around whether we human beings have it, ?Yes there are many debates among philosophers on the subject, some say we have "free will" others say we do not have "free will". I say both sides quite literally ?don't know what they're talking about. Tell me what "free will" means or give me an example to show me what "free will" means and then I'll be willing to ponder the question of if human beings have this property or not; but until then it's just gibberish. ?Free will is an idea so bad it's not even wrong.? ? John ?K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:10:30 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:10:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:03 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?>> ? >> "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. >> Stathis > > ?> ? > Great - I challenge you to do it. > ?I'm not Stathis but I'll give it a try. A gut feeling that X is probably true and Y is probably untrue means that a being is unable to consciously access or articulate all the ?mental activity that led him to that probabilistic conclusion. > ?> ? > A problem with your definition of gut feeling is that it cannot be > objectively measured. > ?If your gut feeling turns out to be correct more often than randomness would allow then I can objectively conclude that mental activity? ?of some sort has probably gone on in your brain to produce it? even if you don't consciously know what it is or you are unable to put your reasoning into words. However you're doing it you're coming up with the correct answer more often than not, and that is a objective fact. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:20:31 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:20:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 6:18 AM, BillK wrote: > Gmail sees itself as a general easy-to-use email client. Nowadays > bottom posting is only used in old-fashioned mailing lists and Google > appears to think that adding this option would confuse the millions of > 'chatty' users. > Seems like something Google Labs could provide. I just click to expand the included quoted reply and manually edit into a top-post. Takes about three clicks and two keystrokes. Also, it's much easier to follow who said what when included quotes are of the format: On *date* at *time,* *person* <*email*> wrote: > *some stuff* The date/time isn't critical, but indicating each line of quoted text with a ">" or some other visible character is important because it's likely to be preserved in replies to replies, etc. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmd54321 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:23:01 2016 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:23:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] META: Bottom posting in Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Thanks for the useful pointer about the Quote Selected Text extension. I almost never top-post/-email/-etc. If I don't feel I need to quote material at the top, to be clear what I'm directly responding to, I delete it -- that, for many reasons. One is I don't want multiple hits coming up in Thunderbird later if I'm searching for something. Another is a silly conservatism. By way of analogy: Imagine say Leo Strauss or someone wanting to respond to the email he got from his pal Martin with the latter's new book /Being and Time/. Leo attaches a full copy of /Being and Time/ in his response, and writes "LOL" at the top (perhaps "under erasure"). I want very much to be the opposite of that kind of correspondent. By the way, I recently discovered that my default Samsung/Android email app doesn't even have a setting for NOT top posting! I can delete the quoted text manually, but not the "XXX wrote" part. God help us. When I have time I'll set up a different app. There must be some better ones out there. Probably hundreds. Brian From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:37:06 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:37:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news Message-ID: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/20/cryonics-debate-science-freezing-human-bodies Nothing extraordinary here except a recent case sparked some discussion in the U.K. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Mon Nov 21 18:31:37 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:31:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> Il 21/11/2016 18:37, Dan TheBookMan ha scritto: > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/20/cryonics-debate-science-freezing-human-bodies > > > Nothing extraordinary here except a recent case sparked some discussion > in the U.K. In Italy we got only the sensationalism and some interview with some old academic mummies. -- Mirco Romanato From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:55:13 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 12:55:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?If your gut feeling turns out to be correct more often than randomness would allow then I can objectively conclude that mental activity? ?of some sort has probably gone on in your brain to produce it? even if you don't consciously know what it is or you are unable to put your reasoning into words. However you're doing it you're coming up with the correct answer more often than not, and that is a objective fact. John K Clark Here's the thing: you engineers and physicists and mathematicians do not have in your background the way behavioral scientists define things, as established by a separate conversation I had with Spike a while back. Your paragraph is entirely correct but it fails to specify just what mental process is going on and how you measure it. We call it operational definition - you define your terms by the way you measure them. This gives us situations that are puzzling to people outside the professions: in a study we might define intelligence as the score on a standard IQ test. Now that does not tell us at all what intelligence, but it does give us a standard measure that others in the field understand and can use to analyze our study and perhaps replicate it. Some might strenuously disagree that it measures intelligence adequately. Fine. Let them do their own study using other measures. Some people might say that in your paragraph above, the terms gut feeling, instinct, and intuition might be used interchangeably, and that does not help us at all to understand each one separately, if indeed they are separate processes. Biologists in this group are familiar with a six point definition of instinct (often called species-specific behavior) that nobody who isn't familiar with it will understand, but it is used to try to separate inborn behaviors from learned ones, complex behavior from simple reflexes, and so on. Definitions should tell us what something is, and what something is not. Discriminating. I probably should apologize for asking of some of you to define things in a way I am familiar with and you are not. Done. It was not a fair game. Ultimately, I am unable to come up any definition of free will that would adhere to the standards of operational definitions. So we leave it to the philosophers, who don't have such standards. bill w On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:10 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:03 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?>> ? >>> "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. >>> Stathis >> >> > > ?> ? >> Great - I challenge you to do it. >> > > ?I'm not Stathis but I'll give it a try. A gut feeling that X is probably > true and Y is probably untrue means that a being is unable to consciously > access or articulate all the ?mental activity that led him to that > probabilistic conclusion. > > >> ?> ? >> A problem with your definition of gut feeling is that it cannot be >> objectively measured. >> > > ?If your gut feeling turns out to be correct more often than randomness > would allow then I can objectively conclude that mental activity? > > ?of some sort has probably gone on in your brain to produce it? even if > you don't consciously know what it is or you are unable to put your > reasoning into words. However you're doing it you're coming up with the > correct answer more often than not, and that is a objective fact. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:06:04 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:06:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmm. When I click on the link I get a few lines that look like hieroglyphics. When I try to go to turingchurch.com it gives me the same thing. Any ideas? bill w On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > The 2016 edition of the Terasem Annual Colloquium on the Law of > Futuristic Persons will take place in Second Life ? Terasem sim ? on > Saturday, December 10, 2016. There are two main themes: ?Legal Aspects > of Futuristic Persons: Cyber-Humans,? and ?A Tribute to the ?Father of > Artificial Intelligence,? Marvin Minsky, PhD.? This is a can?t miss > event with stellar speakers and content. You are invited!... > http://turingchurch.com/2016/11/18/terasem-colloquium-in- > second-life-december-10-2016/ > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:10:47 2016 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:10:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:06 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Hmm. When I click on the link I get a few lines that look like > hieroglyphics. > > When I try to go to turingchurch.com it gives me the same thing. > > Any ideas? > You mean this: Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is required by WordPress. It means the turingchurh.com website is broken. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:37:29 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:37:29 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality In-Reply-To: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 1:34 AM, Stuart LaForge wrote: > But this trick does not work with entangled quantum particles. It would be > as if your coins were changing identity between Step 1 and Step 2. > > Is your mind blown yet? Not really. If the particles change identity between observations, then that is what they do. > Here is a simple math explanation of Bell's Inequality: > > http://www.mtnmath.com/whatth/node60.html If that's what you're analogizing to, your analogy fails. Spins of 0 and 90 degrees may differ, but both may be detected at 45 degrees off. Further, the paper's assertion about local hidden variables does not seem to hold - in other words, it appears to be disproving a strawman. This unfortunately seems to happen a lot in quantum mechanics papers. From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:47:11 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:47:11 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 November 2016 at 19:10, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:06 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> Hmm. When I click on the link I get a few lines that look like >> hieroglyphics. >> >> When I try to go to turingchurch.com it gives me the same thing. >> >> Any ideas? > > > You mean this: > > Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is > required by WordPress. > > It means the turingchurh.com website is broken. turingchurch.net seems to be OK. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 19:49:29 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:49:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 1:55 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?>> ? >> If your gut feeling turns out to be correct more often than randomness >> would allow then I can objectively conclude that mental activity >> ? ? >> of some sort has probably gone on in your brain to produce it even if you >> don't consciously know what it is or you are unable to put your reasoning >> into words. However you're doing it you're coming up with the correct >> answer more often than not, and that is a objective fact. > > ?> ? > Your paragraph is entirely correct but it fails to specify just what > mental process is going on and how you measure it. > ?It doesn't explain how gut feeling does what it does but it does give a way to ?measure it, the number of times it turns out to be correct vs the number of times it turns out to be incorrect. > ?> ? > Some people might say that in your paragraph above, the terms gut feeling, > instinct, and intuition might be used interchangeably, and that does not > help us at all to understand each one separately, if indeed they are > separate processes. > ?Intuition is just a more polite ?word for gut feeling, ?and instinct is the hard wired ROM in our DNA.? People use these words over and over and when challenged cannot properly > define them. I have asked thousands of > students to define them and all they can do is to offer synonyms, which of > course is circular. ?That's the trouble with definitions, all the definitions in the dictionary are made of words which also have definitions in the dictionary that are also made of words, and round and round we go. The thing that breaks us out of that circularity and the reason language is not meaningless is due to examples from the real world, I point to a large green thing and say "tree" and you get the idea. And examples are where lexicographers got the information to write their ? ? dictionary in the first place ?. ?>? > in a study we might define intelligence as the score on a standard IQ > test. ?I suppose that's as good a definition as any, ? ?but much more important than any definition would be an example. Intelligence is that quality of mind that Einstein had in greater abundance than the average man ?. If I gave more examples involving Mozart ?, ? Leonardo da Vinci ? and ? Shakespeare ? people who didn't know English would have an even better understanding of the meaning of the word "intelligence", although they still might not be able to define it. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 20:33:13 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:33:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality In-Reply-To: References: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > ?> ? > Spins of 0 > ? ? > and 90 degrees may differ, but both may be detected at 45 degrees off. > ? The only way you could know that a photon is at 0 degrees is that it had already gone through a filter set at 0 degrees, and then you'd know there is a 100% chance it will make it through another filter set at 0 degrees and a 0% chance it will make it through a filter set at 90 degrees and a 50% chance it will make it through a filter set at 45 degrees. A 90 degree photon also has a 50% chance of making it through a polarizer set at 45 degrees so it can ?not distinguish between the two. ? ?>> ? >> Is your mind blown yet? > > ?> ? > Not really. If the particles change identity between observations, > ? ? > then that is what they do. I'll try to put the problem in as extreme form as I can to get at the essential weirdness. Some physical process produce 2 photons that have the same polarization but move in opposite directions. A billion years before I was born somebody in the Virgo Cluster started making pairs of photons that have identical but unknown polarizations. He sent one stream of photons to the earth, a billion light years away and he sent the second stream of photons to the Coma cluster in the opposite direction from the earth also a billion light years away. A billion years later on Earth I spin my polarizer filter (like Polaroid sunglasses) to a random direction and record its position, I observe if the photon made it through the polarizer or not and record that too, the exact time also. Now I spin the polarizer ? ? again and do the same thing for the next photon and then for the next several thousand photons. When his stream of photons reach my friend in the Coma Cluster he does the same thing with his photons. Both of us observe that 50% of the time the photon makes it through the polarizer and 50% it does not. Now I decide to visit my friend. I get in ?to? a spaceship with my records and blast off for the Coma Cluster at 99% of the speed of light. After 2 billion years I arrive in the Coma Cluster ?.? I now compare notes with my friend. I notice that the direction I had my polarizer turned to and the direction my friend had his turned to were different, not very surprising since both were picked at random, but then I find something astounding. The square of the cosign of the angle between the 2 detectors for each photon pair is proportional to the probability that a photon will make it through my friend's detector. Or to put it another way, if the photon is stopped by my friend's polarizer 2 billion light years away and if by chance mine is orientated in the same direction then there is a 0% chance it will make it through mine, and if my polarizer is oriented 90 degrees from that there is a 100% chance it will make it through. That is weird, either the photon knew how I was going to spin that polarizer a billion years in the future or the random spin of the polarizer instantly influenced a photon 2 billion light years away. Neither of these possibilities violate relativity because relativity only says that matter, energy, and information can't travel faster than light and this is none of those things, there isn't really a good word in the English language for what it is, but it's something, an influence of some sort, and it's weird. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:02:16 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:02:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality In-Reply-To: References: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Nov 21, 2016 12:34 PM, "John Clark" wrote: > if by chance mine is orientated in the same direction then there is a 0% chance it will make it through mine, and if my polarizer is oriented 90 degrees from that there is a 100% chance it will make it through. > > That is weird, No, it really isn't. > either the photon knew how I was going to spin that polarizer a billion years in the future or the random spin of the polarizer instantly influenced a photon 2 billion light years away. Or they already were that way but you had no way to know which, only that one was one way and one was the other. Once you knew the one, you knew the other. No actual information changed at that far-distant point the moment your observation was made; only your knowledge (which is local to you) did. I have seen dozens of people make this exact same confusion. That doesn't make them right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:49:59 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:49:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, the .net works. But do I need the MySQL extension? Have no idea what it is. bill w On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 1:47 PM, BillK wrote: > On 21 November 2016 at 19:10, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:06 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> > >> Hmm. When I click on the link I get a few lines that look like > >> hieroglyphics. > >> > >> When I try to go to turingchurch.com it gives me the same thing. > >> > >> Any ideas? > > > > > > You mean this: > > > > Your PHP installation appears to be missing the MySQL extension which is > > required by WordPress. > > > > It means the turingchurh.com website is broken. > > > turingchurch.net seems to be OK. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 23:14:46 2016 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:14:46 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 21 November 2016 at 22:49, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Yes, the .net works. But do I need the MySQL extension? Have no idea what > it is. bill w No. The website is faulty at present. I've run a scan that shows website errors need fixing. BillK From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 04:20:15 2016 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:20:15 +1100 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's fuzzy and imprecise, and there's incoherent. "Free will" is incoherent. On 22 November 2016 at 02:03, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > "Instinct", "intuition" and "gut feeling" can be defined quite easily. > Stathis > > Great - I challenge you to do it. A problem with your definition of gut > feeling is that it cannot be objectively measured. Only the person who is > acting, he says, on a gut feeling, can call it that, and self-report on > feelings is not scientific data. > No objective measurement, no proper definition. For use in science, that > is. > > People use these words over and over and when challenged cannot properly > define them. I have asked thousands of students to define them and all > they can do is to offer synonyms, which of course is circular. They just > want to play "oh you know what I mean". So I challenge them with 'love'. > Does everyone mean exactly the same thing when they use that term? No, > they say. Then what does it mean when you say it? Perhaps something > different from what your partner thinks you mean? Yes, perhaps. Very very > fuzzy. (When a female hears "I love you" she may think "exclusive > relationship",which is sometimes not what the guy meant when he said it.) > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue Nov 22 04:45:29 2016 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 21:45:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news In-Reply-To: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> References: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> Message-ID: This was not an Alcor case, but we took the initiative in crafting a response to ill-informed critics. You can find it here: http://alcor.org/Statement-on-Cryonics.pdf Anders Sandberg did a record-breaking number of interviews in one day, to enlighten the media and anyone interested as to the facts of the case. --Max On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: > Il 21/11/2016 18:37, Dan TheBookMan ha scritto: > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/20/cryonics- > debate-science-freezing-human-bodies > > debate-science-freezing-human-bodies?CMP=twt_a-science_b-gdnscience> > > > > Nothing extraordinary here except a recent case sparked some discussion > > in the U.K. > > In Italy we got only the sensationalism and some interview with some old > academic mummies. > > > -- > Mirco Romanato > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 05:48:46 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 21:48:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news In-Reply-To: References: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> Message-ID: <1D0D7D46-1CC0-4873-9599-5763CCAFE1D7@gmail.com> On Nov 21, 2016, at 8:45 PM, Max More wrote: > This was not an Alcor case, but we took the initiative in crafting a response to ill-informed critics. You can find it here: > > http://alcor.org/Statement-on-Cryonics.pdf Well-crafted, and I will pass that along. > Anders Sandberg did a record-breaking number of interviews in one day, to enlighten the media and anyone interested as to the facts of the case. Way to go, Anders! Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 05:52:00 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 06:52:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium in Second Life, December 10, 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The site turingchurch.com is dead due to a server problem, I contacted the server admins and hope they will fix things soon. The new site turingchurch.net (running on the Medium platform) is alive and well, but doesn't have the Terasem Colloquium info. I will post updated info as soon as the ,com site works again. On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:14 AM, BillK wrote: > On 21 November 2016 at 22:49, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> Yes, the .net works. But do I need the MySQL extension? Have no idea what >> it is. bill w > > No. The website is faulty at present. > I've run a scan that shows website errors need fixing. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 05:52:19 2016 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 21:52:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news In-Reply-To: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> References: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> Message-ID: <352DED6B-F255-4B0D-8E02-FE99C4BBE65A@gmail.com> On Nov 21, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Mirco Romanato wrote: > Il 21/11/2016 18:37, Dan TheBookMan ha scritto: >> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/20/cryonics-debate-science-freezing-human-bodies >> >> >> Nothing extraordinary here except a recent case sparked some discussion >> in the U.K. > > In Italy we got only the sensationalism and some interview with some old > academic mummies. I've often heard that about Italy -- that's it's culturally a museum. I hope it's not completely true. What do you believe might be done to reinvigorate it along the lines of the Renaissance -- without, of course, the wars and despots? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books via: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 14:57:31 2016 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 09:57:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality In-Reply-To: References: <3dac5cf9eaf659bad9e60ad3bf6d8f21.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > ?> ? > Spins of 0 > ? ? > and 90 degrees may differ, but both may be detected at 45 degrees off. > ? The only way you could know that a photon is at 0 degrees is that it had already gone through a filter set at 0 degrees, and then you'd know there is a 100% chance it will make it through another filter set at 0 degrees and a 0% chance it will make it through a filter set at 90 degrees and a 50% chance it will make it through a filter set at 45 degrees. A 90 degree photon also has a 50% chance of making it through a polarizer set at 45 degrees so it can ?not distinguish between the two. ? ?>> ? >> Is your mind blown yet? > > ?> ? > Not really. If the particles change identity between observations, > ? ? > then that is what they do. I'll try to put the problem in as extreme form as I can to get at the essential weirdness. Some physical process produce 2 photons that have the same polarization but move in opposite directions. A billion years before I was born somebody in the Virgo Cluster started making pairs of photons that have identical but unknown polarizations. He sent one stream of photons to the earth, a billion light years away and he sent the second stream of photons to the Coma cluster in the opposite direction from the earth also a billion light years away. A billion years later on Earth I spin my polarizer filter (like Polaroid sunglasses) to a random direction and record its position, I observe if the photon made it through the polarizer or not and record that too, the exact time also. Now I spin the polarizer ? ? again and do the same thing for the next photon and then for the next several thousand photons. When his stream of photons reach my friend in the Coma Cluster he does the same thing with his photons. Both of us observe that 50% of the time the photon makes it through the polarizer and 50% it does not. Now I decide to visit my friend. I get in ?to? a spaceship with my records and blast off for the Coma Cluster at 99% of the speed of light. After 2 billion years I arrive in the Coma Cluster ?.? I now compare notes with my friend. I notice that the direction I had my polarizer turned to and the direction my friend had his turned to were different, not very surprising since both were picked at random, but then I find something astounding. The square of the cosign of the angle between the 2 detectors for each photon pair is proportional to the probability that a photon will make it through my friend's detector. Or to put it another way, if the photon is stopped by my friend's polarizer 2 billion light years away and if by chance mine is orientated in the same direction then there is a 0% chance it will make it through mine, and if my polarizer is oriented 90 degrees from that there is a 100% chance it will make it through. That is weird, either the photon knew how I was going to spin that polarizer a billion years in the future or the random spin of the polarizer instantly influenced a photon 2 billion light years away. Neither of these possibilities violate relativity because relativity only says that matter, energy, and information can't travel faster than light and this is none of those things, there isn't really a good word in the English language for what it is, but it's something, an influence of some sort, and it's weird. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 15:07:49 2016 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 16:07:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] NASA Scientists Sketch Tentative Theory of EmDrive Propulsion Message-ID: NASA Scientists Sketch Tentative Theory of EmDrive Propulsion This is a short and hopefully readable outline of the developing theoretical model proposed by the NASA scientists... https://hacked.com/nasa-scientists-sketch-tentative-theory-emdrive-propulsion/ From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 23:56:04 2016 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:56:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] for Spike and others - teaching 1984 Message-ID: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/11/teaching-1984-in-2016/508226/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From painlord2k at libero.it Wed Nov 23 00:04:39 2016 From: painlord2k at libero.it (Mirco Romanato) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 01:04:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics in the news In-Reply-To: <352DED6B-F255-4B0D-8E02-FE99C4BBE65A@gmail.com> References: <8635d4b2-702a-f26c-34f3-2dc3963c19cb@libero.it> <352DED6B-F255-4B0D-8E02-FE99C4BBE65A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5937f0b7-324f-3c0b-dada-86630d6f37d0@libero.it> Il 22/11/2016 06:52, Dan TheBookMan ha scritto: > On Nov 21, 2016, at 10:31 AM, Mirco Romanato > wrote: >> Il 21/11/2016 18:37, Dan TheBookMan ha scritto: >>> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/nov/20/cryonics-debate-science-freezing-human-bodies >>> >>> >>> Nothing extraordinary here except a recent case sparked some discussion >>> in the U.K. >> >> In Italy we got only the sensationalism and some interview with some old >> academic mummies. > > I've often heard that about Italy -- that's it's culturally a museum. I > hope it's not completely true. What do you believe might be done to > reinvigorate it along the lines of the Renaissance -- without, of > course, the wars and despots? There are exceptions, like Prof. Ametrano (teaching crytocurrencies at Politecnico di Milano) and a few others. But, practically, everyone with brain, skill and ambitions is leaving if he had the opportunity. Some go to China, some to the US, some to London. And they will not return here. Because there is not a good reason. I'm writing some piecee for a friend with the most visited italian financial/economcis blog (Rischio Calcolato) (about Bitcoins and cryptos) and he left Genoa years ago for Zurich and now is moving to London. If you want to know what will be needed, I can tell what I believe: We need to have a complete collapse of the government. If it don't happen, we are toasted and crisped. Currently for a worker in the private sector, fully exposed to the international competition, the actual tax rate is probably around 80%. For someone like me, working for the government health care is more around 50-66% (taking everything in account). For what I understand we are a bit ahead of the US, but not much. Now a friend send me this http://www.opinione.it/politica/2016/11/22/capone_politica-22-11.aspx The government is planning to seize "5.500 apartments between Vasto and Francavilla a Mare". All second homes used during the summer. And there is no money to pay back the owners and, in the interim, as it is not a appropriation, just a seizure, the owners must pay taxes on them (and not small taxes). And, apparently the secret services and the police are looking to see if any owners or others damaged are trying to organize something violent in response. This will get ugly before it get better. Very ugly. In a positive note, Bitcoin is increasing in value and, maybe, there will be a seasteading somewhere for me inthe future. Mirco -- Mirco Romanato From avant at sollegro.com Wed Nov 23 04:20:22 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:20:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Humans losing freewill Message-ID: <46d4f500f7bde8906fe5995584570a35.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Stathis wrote: So you are saying that you are assuming determinism, i.e. every choice you make is caused by events in your past light-cone and that your decisions are shaped by the actual history of the universe and not by any of the other possible histories. Here you also seem to rule out that any of your decisions are made because of events in the future or undetectable fairies on the other side of the universe. So far so good. Stathis continues: Ok here you are back-pedaling from determinism and saying that your decisions are sometimes random. So could you describe what you mean by random as randomness can be very subjective and relative. Are you talking ontological or epistemic randomness? Objectively random or subjectively random? A schizophrenic's behavior may seem random to an outside observer but from his subjective point of view he is simply doing what the voices in his head tell him to do. So its random from the external observer's POV but deterministic from his own. Furthermore you can have a process like flipping a coin that is textbook random and end up finding some mechanism that makes it deterministic such this coin-flipping machine: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1697475 So ontological randomness are those things that truly have no cause at all while epistemic randomness is simply randomness *perceived* by observers due to ignorance of hidden, possibly complex, deterministic causes. Stathis wrote: It is interesting that you bring up "deterrent effects" because deterrence, if efficacious, is a great example of a retrocausation. Think about it: a counterfactual but possible punishment in your future causes you to refrain from criminal behavior in the present which causes that future punishment to never happen. A possible future causing the very past which reduces the probability of that future occuring seems to violate our understanding of how causality works in classical physics but agrees with our intuitions of psychology. This is interesting because photons can do similar things in QM as demonstrated by Wheeler's delayed choice quantum eraser experiments and the Elitzur?Vaidman bomb-test experiments. Photons can seemingly make decisions in your past based upon whether you are going to try to measure their particle or wave properties in your future. They change their own histories, by going through one slit instead of both for example, to accomadate whichever measurement you are going to make. This is even if the photons came from a distant galaxy. This retrocausal aspect that both QM and human psychology share seems to suggest that consciousness might be a quantum mechanical pehenomenon. Of course the converse hypothesis might be true instead, that quantum particles might have sufficient consciousness to make decisions based upon the consequences of them going through one slit or both based upon whether you are going to choose to measure an intereference pattern or which-way information at a later point in time. Stathis continues: But I am not suggesting that randomness is the same as free will. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they certainly are not the same thing. Indeed our best applications of free will are those that are causal to our well-being and gratification or the well-being of the people and causes we care about. Instead I am saying that free will is a choice precipitated by factors intrinsic to the agent rather than extrinsic to him or her. That is to say that there are no invisible puppet strings on you causing your behavior. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Wed Nov 23 06:18:05 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 22:18:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality Message-ID: <2e759232afbdc18adafe80e83fde4bc5.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: What you are suggesting is called a "local hidden variable theory" and it is precisely what violations of Bell's Inequality rule out. To convince yourself of this, I suggest you attempt to write a computer program (or even two) designed to allow two non-networked computers to each accept an input bit and return a random (pseudorandom actually) output bit UNLESS both the input bits happen to be equal on both computers in which case each returns the NOT function of the other algorithm's output. Please post the algorithm if you find it. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 08:11:16 2016 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:11:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality In-Reply-To: <2e759232afbdc18adafe80e83fde4bc5.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <2e759232afbdc18adafe80e83fde4bc5.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Stuart LaForge wrote: > What you are suggesting is called a "local hidden variable theory" and it > is precisely what violations of Bell's Inequality rule out. > > To convince yourself of this, I suggest you attempt to write a computer > program (or even two) designed to allow two non-networked computers to > each accept an input bit and return a random (pseudorandom actually) > output bit UNLESS both the input bits happen to be equal on both computers > in which case each returns the NOT function of the other algorithm's > output. I fail to see how that has anything to do with the example in question. In the example in question, the two particles start out "entangled" - that is, if you know the state of one, then you know the state of the other. This is not true for two pseudorandom numbers generated independently on two different computers. (Also, "returns the NOT function of the other algorithm's output", where the other algorithm returns the NOT function of this algorithm's output, is an infinite loop.) I have seen people suggest strawmen like this, in an effort to defend the view that hidden variables are impossible. From avant at sollegro.com Wed Nov 23 08:46:32 2016 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 00:46:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Demonstration of Bell's Inequality Message-ID: Adrian Tymes said: Yes, I am asking for an algorithm that simulates the entanglement of two bits on separate computers that aren't allowed to communicate. If quantum entanglement is governed by LOCAL hidden variables, this should be possible, at least in theory. Non-local hidden variables are permitted by violations of BI but they have to propagate FTL or backwards in time to reproduce experimental results. Adrian also wrote: <(Also, "returns the NOT function of the other algorithm's output", where the other algorithm returns the NOT function of this algorithm's output, is an infinite loop.)> Yes, thanks for catching this, I meant to say "the other algorithm's input" which, in the context of this example, is logically the same as its own input. Adrian again: