From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jul  1 07:21:44 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 00:21:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
Message-ID: <q3m5ws7h77s8r9hqx3g8vxr4.1498892841569@email.android.com>


For context, some of you might know that I have been researching consciousness with respect to Turing machines. One of things I am trying to figure out is whether the brain can be mathematically modelled as a Turing machine.

One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical proof that there is, in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM



From stathisp at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 07:31:46 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 07:31:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <q3m5ws7h77s8r9hqx3g8vxr4.1498892841569@email.android.com>
References: <q3m5ws7h77s8r9hqx3g8vxr4.1498892841569@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypX2T8nOAyTjFJw=99o3vK7Qj1wUFfZsJ-eWPDYaLr1sXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 1 Jul 2017 at 5:24 pm, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> For context, some of you might know that I have been researching
> consciousness with respect to Turing machines. One of things I am trying to
> figure out is whether the brain can be mathematically modelled as a Turing
> machine.
>
> One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the
> Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical proof that there is,
> in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
The brain is not a Turing machine, but it can be modelled by a Turing
machine if the physical Church-Turing thesis is true; that is, if there
isn't anything in physics that isn't Turing emulable.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jul  1 07:57:36 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2017 00:57:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
Message-ID: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>



For context, some of you might know that I have been researching consciousness with respect to Turing machines. One of things I am trying to figure out is whether the brain can be mathematically modelled as a Turing machine.

One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical theorem that there is, in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM will, for any given input, eventually stop or get stuck in an infinite loop.

So the question I have is how are people with severe OCD different than computer programs stuck in infinite loops? Are there known cases of people who if left untreated would continue performing their compulsion until exhaustion? Or people who literally cannot stop thinking about their obsession while awake?

Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.

Stuart LaForge

Sent from my phone.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 12:39:37 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 07:39:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
References: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbw-cPsMAVA46th9-pmesQcBCvgQw=tdPD-CSTDfDdJpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 2:57 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
>
> For context, some of you might know that I have been researching
> consciousness with respect to Turing machines. One of things I am trying to
> figure out is whether the brain can be mathematically modelled as a Turing
> machine.
>
> One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the
> Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical theorem that there is,
> in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM will, for any given
> input, eventually stop or get stuck in an infinite loop.
>
> So the question I have is how are people with severe OCD different than
> computer programs stuck in infinite loops? Are there known cases of people
> who if left untreated would continue performing their compulsion until
> exhaustion? Or people who literally cannot stop thinking about their
> obsession while awake?
>
> Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> ?I never heard of an OCD person who got permanently stuck in any thought
> or action.
>

?bill w?

> ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 13:12:42 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 09:12:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>

NASA felt it had to say it did not
?run?
a child sex ring on Mars because somebody on the Alex Jones Show, a show
Trump has been on and
?thinks is of ?
high quality, said:

*?We actually believe that there is a colony on Mars that is populated by
children who were kidnapped and sent into space on a 20-year ride, so that
once they get to Mars they have no alternative but to be slaves on the Mars
colony.?*

Vladimir Putin also told Alex Jones to say Hillary Clinton ran a child sex
ring out of a Washington Pizza parlor, I guess she was in competition with
NASA's Mars
?child ?
sex ring.

About 5 million people watch Alex Jones, and the nation is getting dumber
and dumber.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/07/01/no-alex-jones-nasa-is-not-hiding-kidnapped-children-on-mars-nasa-says/?utm_term=.30cbb5d3e60d

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 14:01:06 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 09:01:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa9s5WTYJqocVFETZxOHJEWznc17b8USAW5jrAX6Ppt9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 8:12 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> NASA felt it had to say it did not
> ?run?
> a child sex ring on Mars because somebody on the Alex Jones Show, a show
> Trump has been on and
> ?thinks is of ?
> high quality, said:
>
> *?We actually believe that there is a colony on Mars that is populated by
> children who were kidnapped and sent into space on a 20-year ride, so that
> once they get to Mars they have no alternative but to be slaves on the Mars
> colony.?*
>
> Vladimir Putin also told Alex Jones to say Hillary Clinton ran a child sex
> ring out of a Washington Pizza parlor, I guess she was in competition with
> NASA's Mars
> ?child ?
> sex ring.
>
> About 5 million people watch Alex Jones, and the nation is getting dumber
> and dumber.
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/
> wp/2017/07/01/no-alex-jones-nasa-is-not-hiding-kidnapped-
> children-on-mars-nasa-says/?utm_term=.30cbb5d3e60d
>
>   John K Clark
>

? Pinker has long sections about self-deception and deception of others in
The Blank Slate.

Maybe it first started in gossip.  Gossip serves a crucial function in
tribes but the question is:  who to believe?

Then there's our infinite capacity ?for believing the good things about
ourselves, even if ridiculously exaggerated, and playing down the bad
things.  A person who has more than normal self-deception may have a worse
than usual ability to detect deceptions in others.

Some call this credulousness.  Others just stupidity.  To hear it is to
believe it.

Does this question answer itself?  Do you believe that Trump has an
abnormal level of self-deception?

bill w

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jul  1 14:09:46 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 07:09:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
Message-ID: <400e4bf3000e61bf441b9e62c1638d30.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Bill W wrote:

>> So the question I have is how are people with severe OCD different than
>> computer programs stuck in infinite loops? Are there known cases of people
>> who if left untreated would continue performing their compulsion until
>> exhaustion? Or people who literally cannot stop thinking about their
>> obsession while awake?
>>
>> Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.


> ?I never heard of an OCD person who got permanently stuck in any thought
> or action.

Even without any intervention? Like being alone with no medication or
human contact? The reason I specify this is that I have never heard of a
computer permanently stuck in an infinite loop either. Somebody inevitably
gets impatient and reboots the the thing. Also vital necessities might
intervene on the OCD subject like physical exhaustion, need to use the
bathroom, eat, drink, sleep, etc. Those kind of things might reset or
suspend the compulsive behavior etc. Like a multithreading CPU putting a
task in the background, while it works on a higher priority task.

Stuart LaForge



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 14:27:58 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 09:27:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <400e4bf3000e61bf441b9e62c1638d30.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <400e4bf3000e61bf441b9e62c1638d30.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY8hERMr8HLRDCQMj5W7F2Hybv7Oc3kMXmXqvU1==pszg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 9:09 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> >> So the question I have is how are people with severe OCD different than
> >> computer programs stuck in infinite loops? Are there known cases of
> people
> >> who if left untreated would continue performing their compulsion until
> >> exhaustion? Or people who literally cannot stop thinking about their
> >> obsession while awake?
> >>
> >> Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.
>
>
> >
> ?bill w - ?
> ?I never heard of an OCD person who got permanently stuck in any thought
> > or action.
>
> Even without any intervention? Like being alone with no medication or
> human contact? The reason I specify this is that I have never heard of a
> computer permanently stuck in an infinite loop either. Somebody inevitably
> gets impatient and reboots the the thing. Also vital necessities might
> intervene on the OCD subject like physical exhaustion, need to use the
> bathroom, eat, drink, sleep, etc. Those kind of things might reset or
> suspend the compulsive behavior etc. Like a multithreading CPU putting a
> task in the background, while it works on a higher priority task.
>
> Stuart LaForge
> ?I am assuming that the 'mind' of an AI is a singular thing.  In humans
> the mind is not.  It is made up of several systems, and that, maybe,
> explains why people don't get permanently stuck.  Another system demands
> attention - like you said:  hunger, interruption by a dog or TV or your
> spouse
>

?bill w?

> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 15:51:14 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 10:51:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 8:12 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> About 5 million people watch Alex Jones, and the nation is getting dumber
> and dumber.
>

I think we're getting the government we deserve. Yes, Trump is horrible,
but our government sucked long before he entered the scene. I think we're
way past the point where things can be corrected by voters choosing the
less evil candidate. I've even come to realize that any damage Trump does
to the government and the presidency is positive, even if it doesn't
immediately lead to wiping the slate clean. And, frankly, I don't have a
good feeling about our ability to make a sensible government from a clean
slate.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 16:27:26 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:27:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
References: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2HUcrKhA6-MgY6v-qz_oduLiOiNUz0Gnz4n5o7Maf8Cw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 3:57 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the
> Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical theorem that there is,
> in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM will, for any given
> input, eventually stop or get stuck in an infinite loop.
>

?Actually "loop" isn't quite the right word because loops repeat and a
machine could theoretically tell if it's been in its present state before;
but Turing showed that sometimes you could be on a hopeless task with no
way of knowing you're on a hopeless task, you never repeat yourself but you
never get to your goal either. Real minds seldom get stuck like this
because of a great invention of Evolution, boredom.  Of course there is no
way for Evolution or anything else to know for certain the perfect place to
give up and move on to other problems so real minds must use educated
guesses based on rules of thumb, statistics, and ranking problems in order
of importance; in other words based on judgment.


> ?> ?
> Are there known cases of people who if left untreated would continue
> performing their compulsion until exhaustion? Or people who literally
> cannot stop thinking about their obsession while awake?
>

?
Like every other characteristic the boredom point is not the same for all
the individuals in a population; I have a theory that for world class
mathematicians the boredom point is set very high so they can give their
full concentration to problems long after you or I would have given up.
That may also be why great mathematicians often tend to be a bit...odd.
There may be a fine line between insanity and genius.

? ?
John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 17:09:33 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 18:09:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi7t0zpfuiQkZVvqrP4=OHhrc63EzhzSj12zd4cCtwh4A@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 July 2017 at 16:51, Dave Sill  wrote:
> I think we're getting the government we deserve. Yes, Trump is horrible, but
> our government sucked long before he entered the scene. I think we're way
> past the point where things can be corrected by voters choosing the less
> evil candidate. I've even come to realize that any damage Trump does to the
> government and the presidency is positive, even if it doesn't immediately
> lead to wiping the slate clean. And, frankly, I don't have a good feeling
> about our ability to make a sensible government from a clean slate.
>

The problem is not just the federal government. Some city and state
governments are in trouble as well. Illinois is about to go bust with
huge debts that will never be paid and pension obligations that cannot
be paid.

<http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-01/horrific-catastrophic-court-ruling-send-illinois-financial-abyss>

It looks like kicking the can down the road is running out of road.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 17:30:08 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 13:30:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> I think we're getting the government we deserve.
>

?
I don't. That orange knuckle dragger
? ?
didn't get a majority of the votes cast and he didn't even
? get?
a plurality. What we don't deserve is the Electoral College. Nor do we
deserve the gerrymandering of Congressional districts
?;?
the Democrats got millions of more votes for Congressman than Trump's
Republican cronies, and yet the Republicans control the House and by a
substantial margin.

?> ?
> Yes, Trump is horrible, but our government sucked long before he entered
> the scene.
>

?Yes but there is sucked and then there is mega-sucked. I think it's
important to inwardly scream to ourselves at least once every single day "*THIS
IS NOT NORMAL!*".


> ?> ?
> I think we're way past the point where things can be corrected by voters
> choosing the less evil candidate.
>

?So we should take measures, as the Libertarian Party did last year, to
make sure the MORE evil candidate wins??



> ?> ?
> I've even come to realize that any damage Trump does to the government and
> the presidency is positive,
>

?Would starting a war be a positive thing?
Would restrictions on the free press be a positive thing?
Would accelerating the acceleration of the wealth gap be a positive thing?
Would thousands of people dying because they lost their healthcare be a
positive thing??


?John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 17:38:10 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 12:38:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2HUcrKhA6-MgY6v-qz_oduLiOiNUz0Gnz4n5o7Maf8Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
 <CAJPayv2HUcrKhA6-MgY6v-qz_oduLiOiNUz0Gnz4n5o7Maf8Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa8Ug33ZJm05mzA2=C5u3WKQk4An81HTqsCSkxGF8qyhQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 11:27 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 3:57 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> One characteristic of Turing machines is that they are subject to the
>> Halting Problem. Briefly, the HP is the mathematical theorem that there is,
>> in principle, no way to predict whether any given TM will, for any given
>> input, eventually stop or get stuck in an infinite loop.
>>
>
> ?Actually "loop" isn't quite the right word because loops repeat and a
> machine could theoretically tell if it's been in its present state before;
> but Turing showed that sometimes you could be on a hopeless task with no
> way of knowing you're on a hopeless task, you never repeat yourself but you
> never get to your goal either. Real minds seldom get stuck like this
> because of a great invention of Evolution, boredom.  Of course there is no
> way for Evolution or anything else to know for certain the perfect place to
> give up and move on to other problems so real minds must use educated
> guesses based on rules of thumb, statistics, and ranking problems in order
> of importance; in other words based on judgment.
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Are there known cases of people who if left untreated would continue
>> performing their compulsion until exhaustion? Or people who literally
>> cannot stop thinking about their obsession while awake?
>>
>
> ?
> Like every other characteristic the boredom point is not the same for all
> the individuals in a population; I have a theory that for world class
> mathematicians the boredom point is set very high so they can give their
> full concentration to problems long after you or I would have given up.
> That may also be why great mathematicians often tend to be a bit...odd.
> There may be a fine line between insanity and genius.
>
> ? ?
> John K Clark
>
> ?That, insanity and genius, has been shown to be false many times.
History does provide us with some examples:  Was Newton crazy? He was
certainly very odd, believing as he did, things about spirituality and so
on.   Many high IQ people have depression problems and especially a
tendency towards manic depression.

I don't think boredom will stop an obsessive compulsive.

Test your brain:  take a finger and tap it rapidly on some surface.  The
longer it takes for the involuntary rest pause to cause you to miss a best,
the more introverted you are - and vice versa for extroversion.?


?It's an interesting question whether mathematical geniuses have high
boredom points.  Why math and not other fields of study?  By the standards
of the average person, I'd say that nearly everyone above IQ, say, 140 will
be found odd.  Maybe much lower than that.

bill w?


>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From dsa at unsa.edu.ar  Sat Jul  1 17:51:28 2017
From: dsa at unsa.edu.ar (Diego Saravia)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 14:51:28 -0300
Subject: [ExI] Elon Musk and Bill Gates Debated on the Future of A.I.
Message-ID: <CAE9KQ2FuMqsGRKE5R4F15=z_N52_u0y25dDqaMOfMBPGAdfM0w@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAguWokFlB0

-- 
Diego Saravia
Diego.Saravia at gmail.com
NO FUNCIONA->dsa at unsa.edu.ar
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 17:53:59 2017
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 11:53:59 -0600
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?My_latest_digital_artwork_is_about_cryonic_suspen?=
	=?utf-8?b?c2lvbiwgaXTigJlzIGNhbGxlZCDigJxSZXZpdmFs4oCdLg==?=
Message-ID: <CAMd8APzkTT4G8TZR9dvByBgve0B5ommXf0guK_OQwdRrSa97Jg@mail.gmail.com>

[image: Inline image 1]



-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul  1 18:20:06 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 11:20:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Question for the psych squad
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2HUcrKhA6-MgY6v-qz_oduLiOiNUz0Gnz4n5o7Maf8Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <j9un4f5iah4gvwmeya8s0gp2.1498894986796@email.android.com>
 <CAJPayv2HUcrKhA6-MgY6v-qz_oduLiOiNUz0Gnz4n5o7Maf8Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012801d2f296$ab53d5a0$01fb80e0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



>?That may also be why great mathematicians often tend to be a bit...odd. There may be a fine line between insanity and genius.  ?John K Clark

 

 

John, we aren?t really odd.  In most cases, it is all an act to make our math buddies think we are smart.  For instance, if you go to a restaurant with the math crowd and do something weird, but they already know you suck, they will call you on it.  I went in, tried to think of something weird to impress my friends, started trying to eat with the wrong end of my fork.  They shouted LIAR!  OK so that didn?t work.

 

Here?s the real story:  A number of years ago, Prime95 discovered a new Mersenne Prime, the local geeks were celebrating at the Tied House in Palo Alto.  The guy who had the office next to The Donald up at Stanford was there, saying The Donald might make the scene, but he couldn?t promise because he was working on a book on specialty algorithms and was busy as all hell.  

 

Waitresses came, took our order (about 20 of us) went away.  A quarter of an hour later, up shows The Donald, striding in like he was just some guy rather than the author of the textbooks many of us studied at some point in college.  We were in shock and awe.  He didn?t really talk much to anyone, just sat down as if lost in thought.

 

About a minute after he sat down, the waitresses arrived with the food.  His generous colleague offered: If you want you can have my dinner and I will order something.  The Donald cheerfully accepted, they put a giant chimichanga before him, he scarfed it down like he hadn?t eaten in a week.  He was there about two minutes after slamming the giant chimi, stood up, said: Nice to meet you all gotta go!

 

SHOOM he was out of there like a whirlwind, before his benefactor?s replacement dinner had even arrived.  {8^D

 

So there you go.  Of course, The Donald is a genuine genius, where the rest of us suck.  We all want to be like him when we grow up.  But now we can?t even have a decent Mersenne celebratory dinner because we all try to make like The Donald, show up late, say almost nothing, hope someone will give us their dinner, inhale it like a vacuum cleaner, then run out immediately afterwards.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 18:00:41 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 14:00:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 1:30 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Would starting a war be a positive thing?
>

We've been at war continually since I can remember. What's one more?


> Would restrictions on the free press be a positive thing?
> Would accelerating the acceleration of the wealth gap be a positive thing?
>

Yes, if they instigate a collapse that's inevitable.

Would thousands of people dying because they lost their healthcare be a
> positive thing??
>
>

Healthcare is another mess the government has made. Unfortunately, no
matter what path we take forward, there will be innocent victims. The goal
should be to minimize the total number, not just deal with the current
emergency.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jul  1 22:01:08 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 17:01:08 -0500
Subject: [ExI] very cool
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYeH_S83LZUN9ZT_+RbgTNB_XACnN9PPNnkzhfk=oUcfQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.usairnet.com/2017/02/16/the-largest-night-formation-in-history/1004893/

bill w
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul  2 15:27:27 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 11:27:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 1, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

?>> ?
>> Would starting a war be a positive thing?
>>
>
> ?> ?
> We've been at war continually since I can remember. What's one more?
>

 What's one more
? war?
?
? Not much, just sand fused into glass and a billion more deaths. Not much.?


?>> ?
>> Would restrictions on the free press be a positive thing?
>> Would accelerating the acceleration of the wealth gap be a positive thing?
>>
>
> ?> ?
> Yes, if they instigate a collapse that's inevitable.
>

?I have to say that a certain smell coming from the "let it burn" strain of
libertarianism may be the reason that philosophy has failed to catch on. ?

?

 John K Clark?




>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Jul  2 17:04:16 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 13:04:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2djHyjdgKPCC28SkNs-_bWxjNQQqBahT5QVWZAeMx234Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 11:27 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?I have to say that a certain smell coming from the "let it burn" strain
> of libertarianism may be the reason that philosophy has failed to catch on.
> ?
>

Is it really necessary to make your text larger than everyone else's?

Even after I normalize it a reply you have to go back and re-enlarge it.
Sheesh. Whatever.

Yeah, I'm sure the country would be rabidly libertarian if not for the "let
it burn" strain. :rolleyes: The fact that half the voters are stupid enough
to vote for Trump and the other half are stupid enough to vote for Clinton
has nothing to do with it. The fact that we have a firmly entrenched
two-party system also probably doesn't play a role.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  2 19:45:29 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 14:45:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] infinite loop
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEae8hETNMEWR=WJSGT5JfPLc5iSgmrweyOsVCPLWsioKA@mail.gmail.com>

I did manage to remember some repetitive behavior in people that just won't
stop for hours and hours:

Rocking and other behaviors in severely and profounded retarded people, who
almost certainly have brain damage to some degree or other.

bill w
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul  2 20:50:39 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 16:50:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2djHyjdgKPCC28SkNs-_bWxjNQQqBahT5QVWZAeMx234Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2djHyjdgKPCC28SkNs-_bWxjNQQqBahT5QVWZAeMx234Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0SrNNeKMKMBec2=SDuw+z9xaF7v=98=FzgPVBeWdvXQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Yeah, I'm sure the country would be rabidly libertarian if not for the
> "let it burn" strain. :rolleyes:
> ? T
> he fact that half the voters are stupid enough to vote for Trump and the
> other half are stupid enough to vote for Clinton has nothing to do with it.


?
So the poor being upset when they become poorer while the
? ?
?
rich get richer, and everybody worried about becoming one of a billions
carbonized cadavers earns a eye roll from you because everybody is stupid
(except you) and so they
?
get what they
?
deserve. That may be so but keep one thing in mind, you personally could
become one of those carbonized cadavers because thermonuclear reactions
don't discriminant, they treat all human beings like matter, even you.

 John K Clark

>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Jul  2 21:06:47 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 16:06:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0SrNNeKMKMBec2=SDuw+z9xaF7v=98=FzgPVBeWdvXQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2djHyjdgKPCC28SkNs-_bWxjNQQqBahT5QVWZAeMx234Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0SrNNeKMKMBec2=SDuw+z9xaF7v=98=FzgPVBeWdvXQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dfZ1sTNBzwxV+2d9_dq+HAChBXwqkd6_AXLs-Sysu4Ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 3:50 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 1:04 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> Yeah, I'm sure the country would be rabidly libertarian if not for the
>> "let it burn" strain. :rolleyes:
>> ? T
>> he fact that half the voters are stupid enough to vote for Trump and the
>> other half are stupid enough to vote for Clinton has nothing to do with it.
>
>
> ?
> So the poor being upset when they become poorer while the
> ? ?
> ?
> rich get richer, and everybody worried about becoming one of a billions
> carbonized cadavers earns a eye roll from you
>

No, *you* earned an eye roll from me, John.


> because everybody is stupid (except you) and so they
> ?
> get what they
> ?
> deserve.
>

Sigh, shockingly, you're putting words in my mouth. Fact: half the voters
were stupid enough to vote for Trump. Also fact: half the voters were
stupid enough to vote for Clinton. I'm no genius, but at least I'm not that
stupid.

That may be so but keep one thing in mind, you personally could become one
> of those carbonized cadavers because thermonuclear reactions don't
> discriminant, they treat all human beings like matter, even you.
>

If only I'd railed against Trump relentlessly on a small mailing list and
changed the course of history with a Clinton win. :rolleyes:

I'm done with you John. Feel free to put more words in mouth.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul  3 00:54:13 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 20:54:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] NASA says it does not run a child sex slave ring on Mars
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dfZ1sTNBzwxV+2d9_dq+HAChBXwqkd6_AXLs-Sysu4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv3iF9KqbHpWEZL9BwLfuCL+z-5pHermjzbNDO6xyyQ=-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eOO0XScCGuo6-GgbCaA3WXxb1xMhpBp3Wfw4rtw01eTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0nWWDBesLUayXq1Spw8-naM8DavvJnaRsWhphwJM282Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c1AqvYr47mMKsctwC8358UOYKXWC+6JKjC4zx8g_hqyA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1b+Vdo02pmEqj51C+Dugr6PCYD+-eqktLSatJYYQQB1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2djHyjdgKPCC28SkNs-_bWxjNQQqBahT5QVWZAeMx234Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0SrNNeKMKMBec2=SDuw+z9xaF7v=98=FzgPVBeWdvXQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dfZ1sTNBzwxV+2d9_dq+HAChBXwqkd6_AXLs-Sysu4Ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3c_T=FK1WKHueYT7igSNwaW-VJ9OCPE8rMQDcQ4h+PeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 5:06 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> I'm no genius
>

?You make a good point.?



> ?> ?
> I'm done with you John.
>

*?NOOOOOO!!? *

?John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jul  3 17:12:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 12:12:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] maybe not intelligence
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYGDadBcxYFurhdWr35jFqif+9hNz-=A-28ZT7VyC3oZw@mail.gmail.com>

Seemingly everyone puts up IQ as the thing transhumans need more of.  Is it?

Just take a look at the actions of people who have high IQs:  perfect
reasoning?  Never make mental errors?  Lack of biases?

There doesn't seem to be a any correlation between IQ and cognitive
errors.  The confirmatory bias, among many others, is present in all of us.
 (see Wikipedia for cognitive biases).

So some things are interfering with the use of our intelligence.  As far as
I know, we don't even know the origins of the biases, whether they are
mostly built-in or most learned.

I favor innate to some extent.  We don't have to teach children to be
selfish, to judge everything by what it does for them, to consider oneself
the most important thing there is.  Asians do seem, with some success, to
turn that into personal humility and a strong urge to favor the group, not
the individual.

I am not an anthropologist, so I cannot knowledgeably compare
Eastern/Western societies, but the Eastern seems to work out OK most of the
time.  I also cannot say if the egotism common to Western society is gone
in Asians or just more hidden from public view, with private thoughts much
the same as ours.

So, how better to use our intelligence, getting rid of, or at least being
on strong guard for the intrusion of egotism in thinking, is what is needed
now.  Since we cannot at present up IQ with simple genetic techniques,
mostly because it is so incredibly complex, let's think of ways to get rid
of the biases that affect all of us, at every IQ range.

bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul  4 04:55:37 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 06:55:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Pulse 22: CRISPR Rewrites the Very Molecules of Life Any Way
	We Wish
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc+_+-K37zZOZv-qTivSw7qZ1pt+Rk1Zc3xW2QXuLYMSw@mail.gmail.com>

Since I few months I write every week this Pulse newsletter with news
and thoughts on human enhancement, sponsored by Thrivous. This issue
has a review of "A Crack in Creation: Gene Editing and the Unthinkable
Power to Control Evolution," by CRISPR pioneer Jennifer Doudna, and
recent CRISPR news.

Pulse 22: CRISPR Rewrites the Very Molecules of Life Any Way We Wish

The cut-and-paste gene editing technique CRISPR has been all over the
scientific news for a while, and seems poised to revolutionize all
biotech sectors. ?Clustered regularly interspaced short palindromic
repeats? doesn?t sound too layman-friendly, but the recently published
book "A Crack in Creation: Gene Editing and the Unthinkable Power to
Control Evolution," co-authored by Jennifer Doudna, one of the
inventors of the technique, is a fascinating read for everyone...

https://thrivous.com/blogs/views/pulse-22-crispr-rewrites-the-very-molecules-of-life-any-way-we-wish



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  4 17:29:44 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 12:29:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] wtf
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZHNovB2s_VX7dVgC02NKLmFJ=YrLvk29GPeUZ6oyC-eg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.recode.net/2017/7/3/15904484/pincus-hoffman-linkedin-zynga-clinton-win-the-future-democrats-dnc-trump
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul  4 19:43:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 14:43:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] July 4
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYvr97gM-n=4RzWiEtZzmFH0_tBoUGuc_=WFjR8ubk=0w@mail.gmail.com>

Some say that the USA has never been threatened.  That the wars we have
fought have not resulted in saving our way of life.  That Japan was doomed
to lose before it even began its war.

Thus, from that point of view, no person has lost his or her life saving
our country.

That really does not matter to me.  They fought and died and are remembered
or forgotten, or are suffering from their war's physical and mental damages.

So along with huge thanks to the people of the last part of the 1700s who
put this country together, those great minds who created such a sane way of
governing that had never seen the light of day before, I suggest that we
remember the veterans as well, particularly those who fought and died to
get this country started.

We put our people first.  Of the people, by the people, and for the people.


William F Wallace
Brandon MS
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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul  5 07:19:06 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2017 00:19:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 166, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.57.1498933382.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.57.1498933382.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b0d3f05f2a51b926f5db16213b18b176.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Gina Miller wrote:

> [image: Inline image 1]

Haven't caught one of your posts in a while, Gina. I finally figured out
how to use the URL on the ExI archive version of your post to view your
image attachments since the server is scrubbing attachments at least in
digest mode. They are both cool. The one with skull is almost the way I
view consciousness, the only difference being the star field inside the
skull would match the star field outside outside the skull inclduing a
picture of the skull itself. Anyways cool art. I am glad you are posting
again.

BTW how's Jim doing?

Stuart LaForge



From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul  6 15:01:18 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 17:01:18 +0200
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Terasem=E2=80=99s_12th_Annual_Workshop_On_Geoethi?=
	=?utf-8?q?cal_Nanotechnology=2C_July_20=2C_Second_Life?=
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydLxyNo4pQ+huF7UH91r-voYE_gyHDj3XKgnyHBXdxzgA@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology, July 20,
Second Life

Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology will take
place as usual on July 20 in the Terasem sim, Second Life, with top
speakers and talks...

https://turingchurch.net/terasems-12th-annual-workshop-on-geoethical-nanotechnology-july-20-second-life-d776cb1f98a5



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 17:26:35 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:26:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>

 Speaking on foreign soil in Poland on July 6 2017 the day before he was to
meet in secret with his good buddy Vladimir Putin, the Commander In Chief
of the USA spoke about the conclusion 17 US agencies made about Russian
illegally meddled in the US election to get him elected. Trump said:

*"I heard it was 17 agencies. I said, boy, that?s a lot. Do we even have
that many intelligence agencies? Right, let?s check that, We did some heavy
research. It turned out to be three or four. It wasn?t 17"*

Apparently Trump's very heavy research wasn't quite heavy enough because
after my own heavy research (which took about 30 seconds with the help of
Google) I discovered that the USA does indeed have 17 intelligence
agencies, not 3 (or maybe 4). They are:

1) Air Force Intelligence,
2) Army Intelligence,
3) Central Intelligence Agency,
4) Coast Guard Intelligence,
5) Defense Intelligence Agency,
?6)?
Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence
?.?
7) Homeland Security Department,
8) Bureau of Intelligence and Research,
9) Office of Intelligence and Analysis,
10) Drug Enforcement Administration,
11) Federal Bureau of Investigation,
12) Marine Corps Intelligence,
13) National Geospatial Intelligence Agency,
14) National Reconnaissance Office,
15) National Security Agency,
16) Navy Intelligence
17) Office of the Director of National Intelligence.

None of these 17 disagreed that Russia meddled in the 2016 presidential
election
?,?
although some had no opinion and no information about it one way or
another, for example the National Reconnaissance Office isn't likely to
spot election tampering on spy satellite photos
? or say much of anything about it?
. In this matter the important ones are the FBI, CIA
?,?
and NSA
?,?
and by January of this year they all came to the same conclusion that
Russia in general and Vladimir Putin in particular interfered in our
election; even more important the Office of the Director of National
Intelligence also agreed and its job is to tell the Presadent what the
consensus of the other 16 intelligence agencies is on various subjects and
how confident they are that their conclusion is correct. They have "high
confidence", and that's as close as intelligence agencies ever get to
saying they are absolutely certain.

And just before he went into a sealed room for his secret talk with his
boss
?Vlad The Impaler?

?whipped ?
puppy dog Trump meekly
? and publicly said for the record
:


*"Nobody really knows. Nobody really knows for sure."*

If Putin doesn't have a pee tape of Trump with prostitutes
?in a Moscow hotel room it's hard to figure out why Trump is behaving as if
he does. By the way, Putin has said that Moscow prostitutes are "*of course
the best in the world*".?

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 19:52:02 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:52:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY_2nXaZdCeb=K66j93RU+mkmXHyFjTXDrSEzWQQet5-g@mail.gmail.com>

it's hard to figure out why Trump is behaving as if he does. By the way,
Putin has said that Moscow prostitutes are "*of course the best in the
world*".?

John K Clark

Putin is a role model for Trump.  A hard-nosed asshole/liar and much more.
With one friend he can write off all the other world leaders who can't
stand him.  Notice how Putin praised Trump's intelligence.

bill w

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 12:26 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Speaking on foreign soil in Poland on July 6 2017 the day before he was to
> meet in secret with his good buddy Vladimir Putin, the Commander In Chief
> of the USA spoke about the conclusion 17 US agencies made about Russian
> illegally meddled in the US election to get him elected. Trump said:
>
> *"I heard it was 17 agencies. I said, boy, that?s a lot. Do we even have
> that many intelligence agencies? Right, let?s check that, We did some heavy
> research. It turned out to be three or four. It wasn?t 17"*
>
> Apparently Trump's very heavy research wasn't quite heavy enough because
> after my own heavy research (which took about 30 seconds with the help of
> Google) I discovered that the USA does indeed have 17 intelligence
> agencies, not 3 (or maybe 4). They are:
>
> 1) Air Force Intelligence,
> 2) Army Intelligence,
> 3) Central Intelligence Agency,
> 4) Coast Guard Intelligence,
> 5) Defense Intelligence Agency,
> ?6)?
> Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence
> ?.?
> 7) Homeland Security Department,
> 8) Bureau of Intelligence and Research,
> 9) Office of Intelligence and Analysis,
> 10) Drug Enforcement Administration,
> 11) Federal Bureau of Investigation,
> 12) Marine Corps Intelligence,
> 13) National Geospatial Intelligence Agency,
> 14) National Reconnaissance Office,
> 15) National Security Agency,
> 16) Navy Intelligence
> 17) Office of the Director of National Intelligence.
>
> None of these 17 disagreed that Russia meddled in the 2016 presidential
> election
> ?,?
> although some had no opinion and no information about it one way or
> another, for example the National Reconnaissance Office isn't likely to
> spot election tampering on spy satellite photos
> ? or say much of anything about it?
> . In this matter the important ones are the FBI, CIA
> ?,?
> and NSA
> ?,?
> and by January of this year they all came to the same conclusion that
> Russia in general and Vladimir Putin in particular interfered in our
> election; even more important the Office of the Director of National
> Intelligence also agreed and its job is to tell the Presadent what the
> consensus of the other 16 intelligence agencies is on various subjects and
> how confident they are that their conclusion is correct. They have "high
> confidence", and that's as close as intelligence agencies ever get to
> saying they are absolutely certain.
>
> And just before he went into a sealed room for his secret talk with his
> boss
> ?Vlad The Impaler?
>
> ?whipped ?
> puppy dog Trump meekly
> ? and publicly said for the record
> :
>
>
> *"Nobody really knows. Nobody really knows for sure."*
>
> If Putin doesn't have a pee tape of Trump with prostitutes
> ?in a Moscow hotel room it's hard to figure out why Trump is behaving as
> if he does. By the way, Putin has said that Moscow prostitutes are "*of
> course the best in the world*".?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  9 19:45:10 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 12:45:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of John Clark
>?Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is

 

>? the Commander In Chief of the USA spoke about the conclusion 17 US agencies made about Russian illegally meddled in the US election ? discovered that the USA does indeed have 17 intelligence agencies, not 3 (or maybe 4). They are:  ?

 

 

John it depends on what your definition of ?Intelligence? is.

 

 

>? Director of National Intelligence also agreed and its job is to tell the Presadent what the consensus of the other 16 intelligence agencies is ?

John K Clark

 

 

John it depends on what your definition of ?Presadent? is.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 20:40:49 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 21:40:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 July 2017 at 20:45, spike  wrote:
> John it depends on what your definition of ?Intelligence? is.
>

You have to laugh at US spies complaining about Russia spies. :)
It has already been confirmed that vote counts were not interfered with.
So this is all about propaganda, fake news, etc. which US spies and
media are experts at (and probably far better at it than the
Russians).
US spies never interfere in other nations, do they? Oh, I forgot for a
moment about all the bombing, wars, invasions, civilians murdered,
etc.  Do tell, who are the good guys here?

BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 20:50:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 15:50:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 3:40 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 9 July 2017 at 20:45, spike  wrote:
> > John it depends on what your definition of ?Intelligence? is.
> >
>
> You have to laugh at US spies complaining about Russia spies. :)
> It has already been confirmed that vote counts were not interfered with.
> So this is all about propaganda, fake news, etc. which US spies and
> media are experts at (and probably far better at it than the
> Russians).
> US spies never interfere in other nations, do they? Oh, I forgot for a
> moment about all the bombing, wars, invasions, civilians murdered,
> etc.  Do tell, who are the good guys here?
>
> BillK
>

?BillK, the longer I live the less I think of our good old USA.  We were
brilliant for many, many years and produced some of the finest ideas in
history, such as our Bill of Rights.  We have been in decline for some time
now, starting with the Vietnam war.

No, we are not better than the Russians, the Chinese, and others.  Maybe in
some ways worse.

As one ages, one tends to think like this:  "It was all better when I was
young and we need to return to our roots.............."  But this is not
old age nostalgia to me.  We really are much worse.

bill w?

>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jul  9 23:03:47 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 16:03:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d2f907$9fa78950$def69bf0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace



 

>?BillK, the longer I live the less I think of our good old USA.  We were brilliant for many, many years and produced some of the finest ideas in history, such as our Bill of Rights.  We have been in decline for some time now, starting with the Vietnam war?

 

The stuff I care about the most has improved dramatically, pretty starting with the time of the Vietnam war.  It wasn?t long after that when I saw a computer for the first time.

 

 

>?No, we are not better than the Russians, the Chinese, and others.  Maybe in some ways worse?

 

On the contrary, we are waaaay better than both in both software and electronics.  I don?t see any major breakthroughs from either group.  The Chinese are great at manufacturing, but it isn?t clear to me that it is anything other than very low cost labor.

 

 

>?As one ages, one tends to think like this:  "It was all better when I was young and we need to return to our roots.............."  But this is not old age nostalgia to me.  We really are much worse.  bill w

 

 

Oh my goodness, very much on the contrary sir.  I remember my misspent youth, reading the astronomy magazines, the pace of discovery, the electronics (if we use the term loosely and generously) the consumer products available.  Compared to today, oh my.  The power of the computer we hold in our hands every time we make a call on our ?phones? ASTONISHING!  All the stuff we were told about how it would be, compare it to how it turned out.  So we don?t have flying cars (well actually we do (and have for a long time (helicopters.)))  My son has a phone in his watch, cool!  Plus that watch has a bunch of apps on it.

 

Now we can pull a device out of our pocket and say ?OK Google? then ask it anything.  Most of the time it will come up with a pretty good answer, offered in a really sexy female voice.  I have developed a kind of fondness for that voice.  Well, understatement, I have fantasized about that Google-woman voice, imagined her with Jill Stein?s face, with the Google-woman?s personality.  But I digress.

 

Think about it: the Google-woman is waaaaay better than flying cars.  The pace of discovery in astronomy alone is a mind-blower.  I have very little nostalgia about my misspent youth.  I struggle to find anything that was really better back then.  If anything, the music on the mainstream radio was better: today?s rap is a deplorable mess as a form of entertainment, just a total flop, and yet it seems to have an inexplicable staying power.  That I don?t get.  The old rock and roll was so much more pleasant listening.

 

But other than that, now is so much better, and it just somehow keeps getting better with no immediate indication it is starting to level out.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

?


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 00:15:19 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 20:15:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1DHt3sffztiB0T58DWgC9Bpuj9fWLCbHVtW6h_Umr8WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 4:40 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> It has already been confirmed that vote counts were not interfered with.
>

?And it has also been confirmed that Russia hacked both the RNC and DNC
computers, though they only released the the Democratic dirt, the
Republican dirt they kept to themselves. And it has been confirmed that
Russia hacked ?Hillary Clinton's campaign manager's personal Email account
and stole thousands of Emails that contained embarrassing gossip that Trump
used every day for months to great effect in nearly all of his campaign
speeches.

And there is more, Russian hackers altered US voter rolls and stole private
data from there:

http://time.com/4828306/russian-hacking-election-widespread-private-data/

After the astronomical success the Russians had in 2016 they will certainly
make a
?n?
even greater effort in 2020. Trump's idea to safeguard future elections
?,?
that he just mentioned today
?,?
is for the USA to form a joint cyber security unit with, believe it or not,
? ?
*RUSSIA*!
?Republican Senator ?
Lindsey Graham
?said of this:?

 "*It's not the dumbest idea I have ever heard but it's pretty close,*"


> ?> ?
> So this is all about propaganda, fake news, etc.


That was certainly part of it, besides the hacking the Russians
orchestrated a huge disinformation campaign against Clinton. These stories
were so stupid (for example
Pizzagate)
?
I wouldn't have thought anybody could believe them, but it turned out
millions of voters did.

https://thinkprogress.org/russian-bots-where-are-they-now-e2674c19017b


http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/04/03/522
503844/how-russian-twitter-bots-pumped-out-fake-news-d



> ?> ?
> US spies never interfere in other nations, do they? Oh, I forgot for a
> moment about all the bombing, wars,


?So you're willing to make excuses for a foreign power ?that hacked our
election because this time it helped the man you like, but next election
Putin could just as easily help the guy you don't like. Don't you think
it's the duty of the Commander In Chief to make sure that doesn't happen?

 ?John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 00:15:19 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:15:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <001f01d2f907$9fa78950$def69bf0$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d2f907$9fa78950$def69bf0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEauBoYjDdYAES_5yNQtwv9J2ozypD-4dt37T6BgFkvMQQ@mail.gmail.com>

But other than that, now is so much better, and it just somehow keeps
getting better with no immediate indication it is starting to level out.



spike


Yeah, we're great with nonhuman things.  But when it comes to acting like
we are overdosed with testosterone, we are by far the world's leader.  Our
empathy level for those below the upper class ain't too great neither.


 bill w

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 6:03 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
>
>
>
> >?BillK, the longer I live the less I think of our good old USA.  We were
> brilliant for many, many years and produced some of the finest ideas in
> history, such as our Bill of Rights.  We have been in decline for some time
> now, starting with the Vietnam war?
>
>
>
> The stuff I care about the most has improved dramatically, pretty starting
> with the time of the Vietnam war.  It wasn?t long after that when I saw a
> computer for the first time.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?No, we are not better than the Russians, the Chinese, and others.
> Maybe in some ways worse?
>
>
>
> On the contrary, we are waaaay better than both in both software and
> electronics.  I don?t see any major breakthroughs from either group.  The
> Chinese are great at manufacturing, but it isn?t clear to me that it is
> anything other than very low cost labor.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?As one ages, one tends to think like this:  "It was all better when I
> was young and we need to return to our roots.............."  But this is
> not old age nostalgia to me.  We really are much worse.  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh my goodness, very much on the contrary sir.  I remember my misspent
> youth, reading the astronomy magazines, the pace of discovery, the
> electronics (if we use the term loosely and generously) the consumer
> products available.  Compared to today, oh my.  The power of the computer
> we hold in our hands every time we make a call on our ?phones?
> ASTONISHING!  All the stuff we were told about how it would be, compare it
> to how it turned out.  So we don?t have flying cars (well actually we do
> (and have for a long time (helicopters.)))  My son has a phone in his
> watch, cool!  Plus that watch has a bunch of apps on it.
>
>
>
> Now we can pull a device out of our pocket and say ?OK Google? then ask it
> anything.  Most of the time it will come up with a pretty good answer,
> offered in a really sexy female voice.  I have developed a kind of fondness
> for that voice.  Well, understatement, I have fantasized about that
> Google-woman voice, imagined her with Jill Stein?s face, with the
> Google-woman?s personality.  But I digress.
>
>
>
> Think about it: the Google-woman is waaaaay better than flying cars.  The
> pace of discovery in astronomy alone is a mind-blower.  I have very little
> nostalgia about my misspent youth.  I struggle to find anything that was
> really better back then.  If anything, the music on the mainstream radio
> was better: today?s rap is a deplorable mess as a form of entertainment,
> just a total flop, and yet it seems to have an inexplicable staying power.
> That I don?t get.  The old rock and roll was so much more pleasant
> listening.
>
>
>
> But other than that, now is so much better, and it just somehow keeps
> getting better with no immediate indication it is starting to level out.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jul  9 21:05:15 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:05:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2uoy1CUDVH14vBBctUwSGsZsdT7c+Q3svKvvh-YGOU2A@mail.gmail.com>
 <002301d2f8eb$e0eb5d90$a2c218b0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armjEfxrk202z61NvfsWh9USGgKpAmkDSpXn-R9n_PtQwkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZRht+pJ=VtR+c=2pD8ETh3upXb_1VgVHFeoa9k7oLbHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRX2o7UZVxpK=S4y0e8PJFBrh88k-oVCOdGm5jrHue=vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> BillK, the longer I live the less I think of our good old USA.  We were
> brilliant for many, many years and produced some of the finest ideas in
> history, such as our Bill of Rights.  We have been in decline for some time
> now, starting with the Vietnam war.
>
> No, we are not better than the Russians, the Chinese, and others.  Maybe in
> some ways worse.

There are a few things worse, but have you really LOOKED at Russia and
China these days?

We might not be as much better than them as we used to be, but we're
still better in most of the ways that count.  Declining from A to B or
C still leaves you better than the Ds and Fs, for the moment.


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jul 10 02:35:34 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 19:35:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
Message-ID: <e98e21e4df43e894bf9eb0b28bcb2cb2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

On 9 July 2017 at 20:45, spike  wrote:
> John it depends on what your definition of ?Intelligence? is.
>
BillK wrote:
>You have to laugh at US spies complaining about Russia spies. :)
>It has already been confirmed that vote counts were not interfered with.
>So this is all about propaganda, fake news, etc. which US spies and
>media are experts at (and probably far better at it than the
>Russians).

The irony of the CIA being irked that the U.S. is getting its elections
tampered with is not lost on me. But if you like Russian spies better than
American spies, soon they might become the same guys:

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-putin-meeting-experts-cybersecurity-election-hacking-2017-7

The individual vote counts, were probably not tampered with. The delegate
counts in the primaries and the votes of the state electors in the
electoral college? I am not so sure of. How closely are those people
watched? Not one of them recieved money from a friendly guy with a Russian
accent to go against the popular vote?

>US spies never interfere in other nations, do they? Oh, I forgot for a
>moment about all the bombing, wars, invasions, civilians murdered,
>etc.  Do tell, who are the good guys here?

I am sorry that Pax Americana has not worked out as well as one would have
hoped. But it was more Churchill's fault than mine. He is the one who
asked Roosevelt to feed the beast that is the U.S. military-industrial
complex.

Who the "good guys" are is relative to your perspective on the cosmos just
like space and time. We are who we are. FWIW we haven't enslaved anybody
lately and we do pay generously for the natural resources that we are
often accused of stealing. So we are, at least, more polite than most
empires of  history.

According to my analysis of historic empires, by way of Wikipedia, for the
first 500 years or so of their existence, the survival curve of empires is
an exponential decay with a half-life of about 182 years. After 500 years,
it starts to fit a long tailed distribution more like the power law curve
that Anders is so fond of. The longest lived empire was Pharaonic Egypt at
3000 some odd years.

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jul 10 01:23:12 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 18:23:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <mailman.68.1499621210.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.68.1499621210.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <69e6d32febb3b93b2ea9840810ef1968.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

On Sun, July 9, 2017 10:26 am, John Clark wrote:

> And just before he went into a sealed room for his secret talk with his
> boss ?Vlad The Impaler?

Yes. And allegedly, in that meeting Putin denied interfering in the
election... And Trump "believed" him.
  done
> If Putin doesn't have a pee tape of Trump with prostitutes
> ?in a Moscow hotel room it's hard to figure out why Trump is behaving as
> if he does. By the way, Putin has said that Moscow prostitutes are "*of
> course the best in the world*".?

Going back over a decade, Trump has been involved in many real estate
development deals in  Russia including a Trump tower in Moscow. I presume
that he financed those deals through Russian banks. Therefore he owes
Russian banks a lot of money. I think Putin has some measure of influence
over the Russian banking industry. Ergo, the submissive attitude WRT
Putin.

That and Putin is a master manipulator. I would not be surprised if
Trump's inability to find a hotel room in Hamburg might have something to
do with Vladimir getting to Hamburg first. Just to throw Trump off balance
going into the talks. The only reason that I don't think there is an
actual pee tape is because it would have been on 4chan by now.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/president-trump-apparently-hotel-room-hamburg-article-1.3305549

That being said. I am deeply troubled both by Trumps financial ties to
Russia and his sheepishness toward Putin.

Especially since Russia has been conducting cyberwarfare operations
against Ukraine.
https://www.wired.com/story/russian-hackers-attack-ukraine/

And the U.S.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world-0/hacking-us-power-plans-wolf-creek-sabotage-energy-fbi-power-plant-electricity-grid-a7828261.html

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jul 10 08:37:46 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 01:37:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
Message-ID: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>The brain is not a Turing machine, but it can be modelled by a Turing
>machine if the physical Church-Turing thesis is true; that is, if there
>isn't anything in physics that isn't Turing emulable.

This assumes a discrete physics that is not yet proven to be the case. At
best matter/energy are discrete due to QM but QFT happens in
differentiable manifolds of fluctuating quantum fields spread throughout
smooth space-time. I don't see why calculus should work on physical
systems if space-time is discrete.

If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum. In
which case classical computers would have difficulties with irrational
numbers. They will never understand what makes perfect circles perfect
regardless if perfect circles actually exist or not.

Classical computers might always have trouble with irrational behavior as
well which is a well-documented aspect of the human brain at least with
respect to bounded rationality and behavioral economics.

For example, an AI running on a classical computer would be unlikely to
buy a lottery ticket unless it was programmed specifically to do so
because the odds make it inherently irrational. Yet millions of people do
and a (very) few think it was the best decision they ever made.

Another feature of behavioral economics that an AI running on a classical
computer would be unlikely to exhibit would be inequity aversion which is
the technical term why humans will share money with each other in the
Dictator Game and also why they will refuse free money if they can deprive
someone else of a substantially larger bunch of free money in the
Ultimatum Game.

Now I am not glorifying irrational thinking but it is distinctly human and
a  simulation of a human would not be believable without it. Indeed if
George Bernard Shaw is correct, then we owe all technological progress to
the irrational man.

Of course this argument goes out the window once quantum computing comes
online. QCs won't have any problem with irrational behavior in numbers or
people because they would be utilizing the infinities of continuum.

Stuart LaForge





From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 12:16:28 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 13:16:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <e98e21e4df43e894bf9eb0b28bcb2cb2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e98e21e4df43e894bf9eb0b28bcb2cb2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhbwD5FeXDDB3WZ2E_iWcsTUH0OJS-q+bJ3MBrfyN4qkQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 July 2017 at 03:35, Stuart LaForge wrote:
> Who the "good guys" are is relative to your perspective on the cosmos just
> like space and time. We are who we are. FWIW we haven't enslaved anybody
> lately and we do pay generously for the natural resources that we are
> often accused of stealing. So we are, at least, more polite than most
> empires of  history.
>

As you know the US has been at war somewhere in the world (officially
or unofficially) for almost as long as it has existed.

When the US military drops bombs or issues drone strikes (current
ongoing activity) the bombs are not selective. The bombing of
vehicles, homes and wedding parties don't just kill a few alleged
terrorists. Everyone nearby is killed and further away, serious
injuries are inflicted. The US military calls this murder and injury
of women and children and bystanders 'collateral damage'.

'Collateral damage' has another effect. It creates many times more
US-hating potential terrorists than those killed. Suicide bombers
never, repeat *never*, occurred before US troops and bombs arrived to
terrorise populations. Think about it - When your family, friends and
relatives have been killed and maimed by bombs from the sky and you
are powerless and have nothing left to lose, wouldn't you seek out any
way possible to get revenge?

This tragedy will never end until the US leaves these nations to fix
their problems themselves.
If the US manages to reduce its dependence on oil, that might even happen.


BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 14:09:27 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 10:09:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
In-Reply-To: <69e6d32febb3b93b2ea9840810ef1968.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.68.1499621210.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <69e6d32febb3b93b2ea9840810ef1968.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1MYYaNuj_peJHtrbr4KTLJtHpDge8ZHW45PjmYjZ9XeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 9, 2017 at 9:23 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> I think Putin has some measure of influence
> ? ?
> over the Russian banking industry. Ergo, the submissive attitude WRT
> ? ?
> Putin.
>

?It's not just banking, I think Putin has near total control over pretty
much everything that happens in Russia, that's why he's a totalitarian.?



> ?> ?
> The only reason that I don't think there is an
> ? ?
> actual pee tape is because it would have been on 4chan by now.


?
If Putin wants something to stay secret it will probably stay secret
?, ?
or at least stay unproven.
? ?
And if
? ?
Putin
? ?
made the pee tape public he would loose all future influence over Trump and
? ?
by extension the US
? ?
government. Better to play it cool and just let
? ?
Trump
? ?
know privately he has the tape, that way
? ?
Vlad
? ?
can keep pulling the strings. The last thing Putin wants to see is Trump
being impeached or forced to resign.

And if Putin doesn't have a pee tape I think he must have something just as
bad, otherwise Trump's inconsistent behavior is unexplainable; meek as a
kitten whenever Vlad is involved but a mad attack dog against everybody
else, including our oldest and best allies.

John K Clark



>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 10 14:47:15 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 07:47:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
References: <mailman.68.1499621210.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <69e6d32febb3b93b2ea9840810ef1968.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1MYYaNuj_peJHtrbr4KTLJtHpDge8ZHW45PjmYjZ9XeA@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <012101d2f98b$6d27f030$4777d090$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark

>?And if Putin made the pee tape public he would loose all future influence over Trump and

? ?by extension the US government. Better to play it cool and just let Trump know privately he has the tape, that way

? ?Vlad can keep pulling the strings. ?John K Clark  

 

 

 

Perhaps Putin could use the information to leverage a majority stake in Uranium One/UR Asia.

 

Oh wait, never mind, he already has that.


spike 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul 10 19:59:28 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2017 15:59:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0zSLczfK=jOdUbY0Fo-tZG7yyhprTxm+-2G=+2OFNUBg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:37 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum.


?Are Real Numbers really real? That may be one of the deepest questions
that can be asked ranking right up there with why is there something rather
than nothing. Mathematicians are always saying that mathematics is a
language, and language can be used to write both fact and fiction; so maybe
the Real Numbers are like a mathematical Harry Potter novel, entertaining
but not connected with reality. I'm not saying that is the case I'm only
saying maybe.

?> ?
> an AI running on a classical computer would be unlikely to
> ? ?
> buy a lottery ticket unless it was programmed specifically to do so
> ? ?
> because the odds make it inherently irrational.


?It would be ?
inherently irrational
?only if there is a linear relationship between the absolute value of the
sorrow of losing a dollar in a lottery ticket that didn't win and the joy
in winning a million dollars with a ticket that did win. But it might not
be linear, the factor could be much greater than one million.


Another feature of behavioral economics that an AI running on a classical
> computer would be unlikely to exhibit would be inequity aversion


?The AI would exhibit it if ?
inequity aversion
? fostered social cohesion, and if individuals that learned to get along
got ahead. ?In general if your fellow human beings tend to like you then
your genes have a better chance of getting into the next generation than if
they detest you.

John K Clark









>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 04:36:07 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:36:07 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypXqG-w-JBCFw0+DXssGcNswi2DVojrKfKNc4MbeyqKMKw@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart LaForge wrote:

>Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>>The brain is not a Turing machine, but it can be modelled by a Turing
>>machine if the physical Church-Turing thesis is true; that is, if there
>>isn't anything in physics that isn't Turing emulable.

>This assumes a discrete physics that is not yet proven to be the case. At
best matter/energy are discrete due to QM but QFT happens in
differentiable manifolds of fluctuating quantum fields spread throughout
smooth space-time. I don't see why calculus should work on physical
systems if space-time is discrete.

Calculus works on computer simulations and they are discrete. And if the
world really is continuous, it can be simulated on a computer to an
arbitrary level of precision. If the 50th decimal place of any physical
parameter in your brain is essential to your consciousness, you could not
survive, as you would be instantly destroyed by thermal noise.

>If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum. In
which case classical computers would have difficulties with irrational
numbers. They will never understand what makes perfect circles perfect
regardless if perfect circles actually exist or not.

Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out an
infinite non-repeating decimal.

>Classical computers might always have trouble with irrational behavior as
well which is a well-documented aspect of the human brain at least with
respect to bounded rationality and behavioral economics.

A random number generator could be used for unpredictability.

>For example, an AI running on a classical computer would be unlikely to
buy a lottery ticket unless it was programmed specifically to do so
because the odds make it inherently irrational. Yet millions of people do
and a (very) few think it was the best decision they ever made.

>Another feature of behavioral economics that an AI running on a classical
computer would be unlikely to exhibit would be inequity aversion which is
the technical term why humans will share money with each other in the
Dictator Game and also why they will refuse free money if they can deprive
someone else of a substantially larger bunch of free money in the
Ultimatum Game.

If the parts of a machine work in a rigidly deterministic way following the
laws of physics that does not necessarily mean the machine itself will be
rational.

>Now I am not glorifying irrational thinking but it is distinctly human and
a  simulation of a human would not be believable without it. Indeed if
George Bernard Shaw is correct, then we owe all technological progress to
the irrational man.

>Of course this argument goes out the window once quantum computing comes
online. QCs won't have any problem with irrational behavior in numbers or
people because they would be utilizing the infinities of continuum.

On 10 July 2017 at 18:37, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
> >The brain is not a Turing machine, but it can be modelled by a Turing
> >machine if the physical Church-Turing thesis is true; that is, if there
> >isn't anything in physics that isn't Turing emulable.
>
> This assumes a discrete physics that is not yet proven to be the case. At
> best matter/energy are discrete due to QM but QFT happens in
> differentiable manifolds of fluctuating quantum fields spread throughout
> smooth space-time. I don't see why calculus should work on physical
> systems if space-time is discrete.
>
> If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum. In
> which case classical computers would have difficulties with irrational
> numbers. They will never understand what makes perfect circles perfect
> regardless if perfect circles actually exist or not.
>
> Classical computers might always have trouble with irrational behavior as
> well which is a well-documented aspect of the human brain at least with
> respect to bounded rationality and behavioral economics.
>
> For example, an AI running on a classical computer would be unlikely to
> buy a lottery ticket unless it was programmed specifically to do so
> because the odds make it inherently irrational. Yet millions of people do
> and a (very) few think it was the best decision they ever made.
>
> Another feature of behavioral economics that an AI running on a classical
> computer would be unlikely to exhibit would be inequity aversion which is
> the technical term why humans will share money with each other in the
> Dictator Game and also why they will refuse free money if they can deprive
> someone else of a substantially larger bunch of free money in the
> Ultimatum Game.
>
> Now I am not glorifying irrational thinking but it is distinctly human and
> a  simulation of a human would not be believable without it. Indeed if
> George Bernard Shaw is correct, then we owe all technological progress to
> the irrational man.
>
> Of course this argument goes out the window once quantum computing comes
> online. QCs won't have any problem with irrational behavior in numbers or
> people because they would be utilizing the infinities of continuum.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

And what do you make of the fact that a quantum computer can be emulated by
a classical computer?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Jul 11 13:56:31 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 09:56:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:37 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?>?
>  I don't see why calculus should work on physical
> ? ?
> systems if space-time is discrete.
>

?We already know the amount of electrical charge a object has is ?discrete,
and yet calculus does a excellent job approximating what the electrical
field produced by that discrete charge is like. If space and time are
discrete the chunks are probably at the Planck level, and that is very very
small making for very very good approximations.

>
?>
> If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum. In
> ? ?
> which case classical computers would have difficulties with irrational
> ? ?
> numbers.


?I know this is a bit heretical but perhaps irrational numbers really do
have a last digit. ?If the computational resources of the entire universe
is insufficient to calculate the 10^100^100^100 digit of PI, and given that
there are only about 10^81

?atoms in the observable universe that seems like a reasonable assumption,
could the ?
10^100^100
?^100?
digit of PI
? even be said to exist??


> ?> ?
> They will never understand what makes perfect circles perfect
> ? ?
> regardless if perfect circles actually exist or not.


?If ?perfect circles don't exist is there anything about them to understand?

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 11 17:58:14 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:58:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007b01d2fa6f$4503b370$cf0b1a50$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



 

?>?I know this is a bit heretical but perhaps irrational numbers really do have a last digit. ?If the computational resources of the entire universe is insufficient to calculate the 10^100^100^100 digit of PI, and given that there are only about 10^81 atoms in the observable universe that seems like a reasonable assumption, could the ?

10^100^100^100? digit of PI even be said to exist??   John K Clark

 

 

 

Sure can John.  We don?t even need to resort to the definition of a rational number to show that pi is irrational, with a definition: if there is a last digit then you can write it as a fraction, which makes it rational.

 

The Taylor series expansion of pi doesn?t know or care how many atoms there are:

 

 



 

 

We could even estimate the number of terms we need to get to your 10^100^100^100th digit, but we don?t need to for we can already see how the Taylor series is at least 17 different kinds of cool, with wicked being one of them. 

 

Wouldn?t it have been cool to have been the guy who discovered that expansion?  Imagine it: Hey cool, check this guys!  This thing just goes on and on, each fraction getting smaller!  It goes on? forever!  We can?t even possibly write pi as a fraction! 

 

Oh for a thousand lifetimes to be able to dig deeper and wider.

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 01:49:04 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 21:49:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <007b01d2fa6f$4503b370$cf0b1a50$@att.net>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007b01d2fa6f$4503b370$cf0b1a50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Tv-P6_O1Gfvv2CP+GORxA3pe-vb35YEjfmb6Fn-SKkg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 1:58 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?>
>> ?> ?
>> ?I know this is a bit heretical but perhaps irrational numbers really do
>> have a last digit. ?If the computational resources of the entire universe
>> is insufficient to calculate the 10^100^100^100 digit of PI, and given that
>> there are only about 10^81 atoms in the observable universe that seems
>> like a reasonable assumption, could the ?10^100^100^100? digit of PI
>> even be said to exist??
>
>
>
> ?> ?
> Sure can John.  We don?t even need to resort to the definition of a
> rational number to show that pi is irrational, with a definition: if there
> is a last digit then you can write it as a fraction, which makes it
> rational.
> ?
> The Taylor series expansion of pi doesn?t know or care how many atoms
> there are:
>
>
>
>

The key issue are
?
those 3 little dots,
?
the "..."; if the physical universe says the series can't continue forever
is it really correct to say it nevertheless does?
?
I know
?
the above is
?
the definition but
?
definitions are easy, they
?
don't
?
imply that the thing defined actually exists; I could define "glixclog" as
the prime
?
number
?
that is greater than 11 but less than 13.
?
You could argue I'm not playing fair because a prime number between 11 and
13 is a logical absurdity,
?
and that's true
?
but if the universe can't calculate
?
the
?
10^100^100^100 digit of PI
?
and the 10^100^100^100 digit of PI
?
can't effect the universe then is a claim of it's existence any less absurd?

We usually say a metal circle
? made by a blacksmith?
is a
?n?
approximation of a Euclidean circle, but maybe we've got
?it?
 backwards, maybe a
?
Euclidean circle is a approximation of a
? real?
physical circle made of matter. I guess it
?
all
?
comes down to one
? question: which?
is more fundamental, physics or mathematics?

I don't know the answer to any of these questions
? I'm just asking.?


? John K Clark?
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 12 03:46:23 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:46:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2Tv-P6_O1Gfvv2CP+GORxA3pe-vb35YEjfmb6Fn-SKkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007b01d2fa6f$4503b370$cf0b1a50$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv2Tv-P6_O1Gfvv2CP+GORxA3pe-vb35YEjfmb6Fn-SKkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ff01d2fac1$6f4216c0$4dc64440$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark



 

>? question: which? is more fundamental, physics or mathematics?  I don't know the answer to any of these questions I'm just asking.?  John K Clark?

 

 

Math is more fundamental and more real in my mind.  Physics exists as a way to approximate the perfection of mathematics.  That whole 10^80 atoms in the universe thing seems so confining and approximate, never liked it.  The math can soar with the eagles, no need to worry over the chronon, the Planck length, any of that icky real-universe stuff.

 

spike


  

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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 12 05:56:03 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2017 22:56:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
Message-ID: <f7a8c2b31beee28585eca5c2e561bd7e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Stathis Papaionnou wrote:

>Calculus works on computer simulations and they are discrete. And if the
>world really is continuous, it can be simulated on a computer to an
>arbitrary level of precision. If the 50th decimal place of any physical
>parameter in your brain is essential to your consciousness, you could not
>survive, as you would be instantly destroyed by thermal noise.

Even if the brain itself does not have an explicit mechanism to access
these infinities, if they exist in the brain's environment, they could
affect brain function. Is your consciousness destroyed by hanging upside
down? No, of course not. But is your consciousness affected by hanging
upside down? Probably. You are unlikely to perform as well on an iq test
while hanging upside down for example. How about if I were to slowly
adjust your angle relative to gravity until you are at 180 degrees. At
what point would your mind "change"?

Any arbitrary decimal approximation of the continuum loses an infinite set
of possible values that are no longer accessible. Moreover, those lost
values are uncountably infinite so you are losing *amost all* of the
possible values you had to begin with.

>Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out an
>infinite non-repeating decimal.

Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity and
discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't think a
computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack overflow
error.

>A random number generator could be used for unpredictability.

There isn't any deterministic way of achieving randomness thus random
numbers generated by computer are pseudorandom and patterns do show up
upon statistical analysis. Furthermore, irrational behavior need not be
unpredictable behavior' although it often is.

Stuart LaForge







From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 12 08:15:24 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 01:15:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
Message-ID: <71b906971ae1a47315d0e1dc04793548.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

>?We already know the amount of electrical charge a object has is ?discrete,
>and yet calculus does a excellent job approximating what the electrical
>field produced by that discrete charge is like. If space and time are
>discrete the chunks are probably at the Planck level, and that is very very
>small making for very very good approximations.

But if space-time is discrete, it opens up a whole can of worms even at
the planck level once you enable more than a single dimension. For
example, lets say that for the sake of argument that the Planck length
(Lp) is the fundamental and thus indivisible unit of length. A pixle of
the universe if you will.

Then what is minimal unit of 2-dimensional area? If you say that it is
Lp^2, then that is wrong because the Pythagorean theorem says that the
length of the diagonal would be sqrt(2)*Lp but you can't have fractional
Lp (let alone an irrational number of Lp) so the smallest possible area
has to be larger than that. It has to be 12 Lp^2, because (3Lp)^2 +
(4Lp)^2 = (5Lp)^2  thus a 3x4 rectangle has a diagonal of 5 and 3Lp * 4Lp
= 12Lp.

And if you add a third dimension, it gets crazier. A three dimensional box
with edges, face diagonals, and space diagonals that are all integers is
called a perfect cuboid and nobody has ever found one.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PerfectCuboid.html

Furthermore, while I haven't checked his proof, Walter Wyss claims to have
proven perfect cuboids don't exist.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.02215.pdf

Now I don't know if any work has been done on 4-dimensional perfect
hypercuboids, but if they exist, they are liable to be significantly
larger than the planck scale.

>
?>
> If infinities exist ontologically, then space-time is a continuum. In
> ? ?
> which case classical computers would have difficulties with irrational
> ? ?
> numbers.


?>I know this is a bit heretical but perhaps irrational numbers really do
>have a last digit. ?If the computational resources of the entire universe
>is insufficient to calculate the 10^100^100^100 digit of PI, and given that
>there are only about 10^81 atoms in the observable universe that seems
like >a reasonable assumption,
>could the ?
>10^100^100
?>^100?
>digit of PI
?> even be said to exist??

There are two problems with this argument. First, the observable universe
is just a cosmological horizon, and we don't have any reason to believe
the universe ends at the horizon. It could go on forever with observers on
the edges of *our* visible universe seeing billions of galaxies that we
cannot and so on. Our universe could be an expanding bubble in an infinite
sea of expanding bubbles that are universes more or less like our own.

Secondly, given the set of all 10^81 atoms that you mention, there are
2^10^81 possible subsets of those atoms. Note that that this is just with
regards to the possible numbers of atoms in various subsets and ignores
any spatial or chemical relationship between those atoms. After factoring
in all the possible arrangements, relationships, and degrees of freedom
those 10^81 atoms can have with respect to each other, I would not be
surprised if the total number of possible states available to the atoms in
the visible universe becomes significantly larger than 10^100^100^100.

>If ?perfect circles don't exist is there anything about them to understand?

Yes. How did something that does not exist become so fundamental in
describing so much of what we can see and observe? Without perfect
circles, you can't have complex numbers. And without complex numbers you
can't have probability amplitudes and by extension, quantum mechanics.
Math is like the soul of the universe and an infinite number of angles can
dance on the head of a pin. Sorry, I couldn't resist the pun. :-)

Stuart LaForge





From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 12 10:32:29 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 03:32:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Trump's idea of what heavy research is
Message-ID: <5f474e5b561c78621b000e536c48164c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:
>As you know the US has been at war somewhere in the world (officially
>or unofficially) for almost as long as it has existed.

Well there was that 7 year gap between the Banana Wars and World War II.
Your point is well taken, Bill. We do seem to be a warlike people. But I
like to think that at least some of our wars are justified and that we do
more good to the world than harm in the balance of history.

>When the US military drops bombs or issues drone strikes (current
>ongoing activity) the bombs are not selective. The bombing of
>vehicles, homes and wedding parties don't just kill a few alleged
>terrorists. Everyone nearby is killed and further away, serious
>injuries are inflicted. The US military calls this murder and injury
>of women and children and bystanders 'collateral damage'.

I too detest our current policy of using bombs where a single well-aimed
bullet would suffice. It troubles me that the POTUS can order those things
without any oversight. And I am worried that sooner or later a POTUS will
use them on American soil against a fellow American.

>'Collateral damage' has another effect. It creates many times more
>US-hating potential terrorists than those killed. Suicide bombers
>never, repeat *never*, occurred before US troops and bombs arrived to
>terrorise populations. Think about it - When your family, friends and
>relatives have been killed and maimed by bombs from the sky and you
>are powerless and have nothing left to lose, wouldn't you seek out any
>way possible to get revenge?

The problem is that *most* Americans are just as powerless as the targets.
The only thing protecting us from the same fate is a flimsy scroll of
paper called the Constitution and
 the integrity of our drone pilots.

Misplaced vengeance serves no purpose other than perpetuating mutual
hatred. The US government kills innocents in pursuit of the terrorists and
the terrorists kill innocents in pursuit of the US government. If only
they could just keep it between themselves, it would have been over with
years ago.

>This tragedy will never end until the US leaves these nations to fix
>their problems themselves.
>If the US manages to reduce its dependence on oil, that might even happen.

It's hard to bootstrap an alternative energy industry, when every time a
company starts to make some progress, Saudi Arabia opens up a spigot and
crashes the price of oil specifically to undermine the alternative energy
industry. By some miracle, Musk and Tesla seem to be gaining traction.
Let's wish him well.

Now that US has domestic fracking online, it might be able to start
withdrawing, but there is an old Roman adage that "only the victor can
decide when to stop fighting". If they keep hitting us, we have no choice
but to keep hitting back. Welcome to the suck that is the Nash equilibrium
of prisoner's dilemma. :-(

Stuart LaForge



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 14:25:13 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:25:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <00ff01d2fac1$6f4216c0$4dc64440$@att.net>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv10Zrvg6NCjBX2NO0NyhzyK1dOBtMJTkcr903nLaxM=TA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:46 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> *>?* question: which? is more fundamental, physics or mathematics?  I
>> don't know the answer to any of these questions I'm just asking.?  John
>> K Clark?
>
>
>
> ?> ?
> Math is more fundamental and more real in my mind.
>

?At one time it was to my mind too, but now I'm not so sure. And after all
my mind is just the way matter behaves when it is organized in a
johnkclarkian way.?


> ?> ?
> Physics exists as a way to approximate the perfection of mathematics.
> That whole 10^80 atoms in the universe thing seems so confining and
> approximate, never liked it.  The math can soar with the eagles, no need to
> worry over the chronon, the Planck length, any of that icky real-universe
> stuff.
>

?
True, but that icky stuff can be important. The
? ?
Taylor series expansion of PI doesn't
?really ?contain
 enough information to calculate the
? ?
10^100^100^100 digit of PI
? (or even the first digit) because it ?takes for granted something it very
much needs, matter.
The
? ?
Taylor series
? doesn't explain how ?to produce matter or its equivalent energy (by way
of E=MC^2), and nobody has ever observed a calculation being made without
matter or, as far as I know, even proposed a theory about how that might
occur. Perhaps the Taylor series is just the way atoms that
are organized as brains that obey the laws of physics think
about
?something they invented called ?
PI.
?

I have another question, we say a meteorologist's mathematical model of a
hurricane
?is a approximation of a real physical hurricane, so why don't we also say
a mathematical circle is a approximation of a real physical circle made by ?
?a blacksmith??

?I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here so ?m
aybe I was right the first time and math really is more fundamental than
physics, but it's not as obviously true as I once thought.

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 12 14:42:57 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:42:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
Message-ID: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>

 

 

The Larsen C ice shelf broke off last night or late yesterday; a Delaware
sized chunk of ice is now floating.  It's an idea so obvious it must have
been studied: could we haul it to California?  Why not?  We could get boats
which wouldn't exactly haul the thing, but rather would kinda steer it into
the natural currents.  We could use anchors and long cables: a ship could go
out about 10 km, drop an anchor, then serve as a float and fulcrum point of
sorts: its 10 km anchor chain would go down at about pi/4, then a catenary
cable would go back to the iceberg.  Since the cable back to the ice would
only be near the surface close to the ice and the ship, then other shipping
could pass over it.


	
		
 


In this sketch, the red thing is a surface ship, a retired aircraft carrier
perhaps.  There is no reason why we couldn't use multiple surface ships:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have we any ocean-current hipsters?  Is there a way to haul the ice to where
it would get in an ocean current that would carry it to California?  We
could try to haul it near Catalina Island, pull it toward land when the tide
is high with cables anchored on Catalina, then have free fresh water, ja?
What could we do with all that?  How fast would we need to haul the ice to
steer it into a current?  Would a couple hundred meters an hour be good
enough?  How much force would it take to haul something like that at a
couple hundred meters an hour?

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 12 15:20:36 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:20:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>

 

>. Is there a way to haul the ice to where it would get in an ocean current
that would carry it to California?...spike

 

 

Or failing that, perhaps there is a way to set up multiple wind turbines on
the surface of the ice, something like a smaller version of our big wind
turbines.  If the wind is blowing toward the current we want to reach, we
rotate the blades to generate power and drag, but if the wind is not blowing
that direction, we feather the blades.  Might take a year or two to get the
ice up there, but could we get to the rich people with half the original
ice?  Failing that, could we haul the ice to South America?  Are there
sufficient numbers of inventors down that way?  We never hear much about
South America.  What the heck is down there?  Is it like. Peru and Brazil
and France, such as that?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 7:43 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california

 

 

 

The Larsen C ice shelf broke off last night or late yesterday; a Delaware
sized chunk of ice is now floating.  It's an idea so obvious it must have
been studied: could we haul it to California?  Why not?  .


	
		
 


In this sketch, the red thing is a surface ship, a retired aircraft carrier
perhaps.  There is no reason why we couldn't use multiple surface ships:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have we any ocean-current hipsters?  Is there a way to haul the ice to where
it would get in an ocean current that would carry it to California?  .How
much force would it take to haul something like that at a couple hundred
meters an hour?

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 16:15:46 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 17:15:46 +0100
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
 <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiVZWESq5sgf+QGmaCGG=hS4g8yqzKRAyNpkFwU_0jfNw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 July 2017 at 16:20, spike  wrote:
>>? Is there a way to haul the ice to where it would get in an ocean current
>> that would carry it to California?...spike
>
> Or failing that, perhaps there is a way to set up multiple wind turbines on
> the surface of the ice, something like a smaller version of our big wind
> turbines.  If the wind is blowing toward the current we want to reach, we
> rotate the blades to generate power and drag, but if the wind is not blowing
> that direction, we feather the blades.  Might take a year or two to get the
> ice up there, but could we get to the rich people with half the original
> ice?  Failing that, could we haul the ice to South America?  Are there
> sufficient numbers of inventors down that way?  We never hear much about
> South America.  What the heck is down there?  Is it like? Peru and Brazil
> and France, such as that?
>


This iceberg is too big to tow. Putting stuff on the iceberg is also
risky as they tend to split up or flip over as they warm up and start
melting. There are also lots of small icebergs around down there that
ships would have to avoid. Oil companies often put a rope round small
icebergs and tow them a short distance away from rigs, but even this
is tricky, as the rope slips off or the iceberg flips over.

The cost of hiring huge tow ships for months, maybe a year, would be
astronomical. Cheaper to send tankers down there to fill up with fresh
water.

This is a favourite topic - search tow icebergs.

BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 15:45:18 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:45:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
 <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fPF+n88TWhwcPE4_9Cmj-AgCQ9ek5uRb5Kmi0ROe3uvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> >? Is there a way to haul the ice to where it would get in an ocean
> current that would carry it to California?...spike
>
>
>
> Or failing that, perhaps there is a way to set up multiple wind turbines
> on the surface of the ice, something like a smaller version of our big wind
> turbines.  If the wind is blowing toward the current we want to reach, we
> rotate the blades to generate power and drag, but if the wind is not
> blowing that direction, we feather the blades.  Might take a year or two to
> get the ice up there, but could we get to the rich people with half the
> original ice?  Failing that, could we haul the ice to South America?  Are
> there sufficient numbers of inventors down that way?  We never hear much
> about South America.  What the heck is down there?  Is it like? Peru and
> Brazil and France, such as that?
>

 Harvesting the ice seems like a reasonable idea, but I wouldn't expect the
entire sheet to stay together that long. And instead of turbines how about
erecting sails? Sailing against the wind is common.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 14:58:49 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 10:58:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv10Zrvg6NCjBX2NO0NyhzyK1dOBtMJTkcr903nLaxM=TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dh=8cjBO22S-JJCBBQgsWr3gh7X1m09aewNgD=tuTenQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:25 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have another question, we say a meteorologist's mathematical model of a
> hurricane
> ?is a approximation of a real physical hurricane, so why don't we also say
> a mathematical circle is a approximation of a real physical circle made by ?
> ?a blacksmith??
>

The circle made by a blacksmith is an approximation of the mathematical
ideal circle. The hurricane model isn't an ideal that real hurricanes try
to achieve.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 17:15:37 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:15:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fPF+n88TWhwcPE4_9Cmj-AgCQ9ek5uRb5Kmi0ROe3uvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
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On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:45 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
>  Harvesting the ice seems like a reasonable idea, but I wouldn't expect
> the entire sheet to stay together that long. And instead of turbines how
> about erecting sails? Sailing against the wind is common.
>

?The largest sailing ship ever built displaced about 11 thousand tons; this
iceberg displaces at least a thousand thousand million tons. You're going
to need some mighty big sails.

John K Clark



>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 17:33:06 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:33:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fPF+n88TWhwcPE4_9Cmj-AgCQ9ek5uRb5Kmi0ROe3uvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
 <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fPF+n88TWhwcPE4_9Cmj-AgCQ9ek5uRb5Kmi0ROe3uvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbtDrgjmCKYQc0c0PX3uHWwgDGFM-LbQJifLcKR_yaVpA@mail.gmail.com>

What the heck is down there?  Is it like? Peru and Brazil and France, such
as that?



spike


I went to San Juan, Costa Rica, the most successful country in Central
America.  After a day or two I surmised that the richest person in the
country must be the razor wire seller.  A woman won't marry a man until he
has a place that is safe.


Actually looked at houses with a mind to move there.  Was told that I had
better make security my first priority, because sooner or later I would get
burglarized.  It's a poor place.  Unless you are a drug lord, and those
seem to be in charge of the countries, with Gov. officials on the take.


A guy in a bar told me that sure, he had the swimming pool and the girls,
but anyone with a Type A personality would go nuts there trying to get his
stuff from the USA without paying more in bribes than he paid for his
stuff.  If it's the Gov, bribe to get anything.  And yeah, I am type a all
the way and was permanently discouraged.  It's cheap south of the border
but it's not worth it


A friend moved here from Mexico and said it was no longer safe-  about
twenty years ago.  Certainly that now applies to others Central American
countries.  Seen the death rates lately?


I think the banana republic thing is still going on there, unless it's
Marxism destroying countries like Venezuela.


All of them third world, I reckon.  Don't go there.  I felt safe in Costa
Rica and saw some wonderful things, mostly on tours.  Did not go out at
night.  Did not go into most areas of the city.  Beautiful weather and an
hour from a beach.   More national park land than any other country in the
world.  Jungle.  Walk into the jungle until you can't see the clearing
anymore - a strange feeling.


My trip to France and Italy could not have been more different from what I
saw in CA.


bill w



On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> >? Is there a way to haul the ice to where it would get in an ocean
>> current that would carry it to California?...spike
>>
>>
>>
>> Or failing that, perhaps there is a way to set up multiple wind turbines
>> on the surface of the ice, something like a smaller version of our big wind
>> turbines.  If the wind is blowing toward the current we want to reach, we
>> rotate the blades to generate power and drag, but if the wind is not
>> blowing that direction, we feather the blades.  Might take a year or two to
>> get the ice up there, but could we get to the rich people with half the
>> original ice?  Failing that, could we haul the ice to South America?  Are
>> there sufficient numbers of inventors down that way?  We never hear much
>> about South America.  What the heck is down there?  Is it like? Peru and
>> Brazil and France, such as that?
>>
>
>  Harvesting the ice seems like a reasonable idea, but I wouldn't expect
> the entire sheet to stay together that long. And instead of turbines how
> about erecting sails? Sailing against the wind is common.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 18:32:14 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 13:32:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>

OK you techies, gimme some answers here:

Innocent people are killed by our drones.  (I don't know what one looks
like or how it acts.)  Why not put a camera on one of those helicopter-like
drones, with facial recognition software, and only take out the person
recognized as the target?

Only tech can stop the killing of innocents, unless we just stop the wars
and go home (my choice).

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 12 18:20:23 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:20:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] delaware to california
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiVZWESq5sgf+QGmaCGG=hS4g8yqzKRAyNpkFwU_0jfNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <021a01d2fb1d$27af29e0$770d7da0$@att.net>
 <024301d2fb22$6a23b2f0$3e6b18d0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armiVZWESq5sgf+QGmaCGG=hS4g8yqzKRAyNpkFwU_0jfNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02d601d2fb3b$8a68c550$9f3a4ff0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2017 9:16 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] delaware to california

On 12 July 2017 at 16:20, spike  wrote:
>>? Is there a way to haul the ice to where it would get in an ocean 
>>current  that would carry it to California?...spike
>


>...This iceberg is too big to tow. Putting stuff on the iceberg is also risky as they tend to split up or flip over as they warm up and start melting...

Could we split off a piece of it intentionally?  Look for a crack forming somewhere, then use fracking technology?  Or inject seawater into a crack, saltwater melts the freshwater ice, split off a piece, go haul it to wherever the currents are likely to carry it.


>... There are also lots of small icebergs around down there that ships would have to avoid...

Eh, perhaps not necessarily.  If the capital invested isn't too crazy high, perhaps the ships could take their time, keep their speeds low enough that floating ice isn't much of a hazard.  How about those old WW2 battleships?  Take those guns off of there, that should be plenty of payload capacity for a few km of 2 cm diameter steel cable.  Create a harpoon made of something as simple as a Diesel-fired heated tip, drop it ten meters into the ice, spring loaded barbs, that should hold up to the tensile strength of a 2 cm diameter cable.  

My European friends, do pardon if I drop into weird units for a minute, for I learned most of my mechanical engineering using American-made stuff, which is measured in inches, feet, furlongs, rods, hogsheads and such.  One inch diameter cable is good for a steady 80k pounds force with safety margin, that stuff weighs a couple pounds per foot so about 10k per mile, about 50k pounds of cable should be plenty so your battlewagon converted to Iceman-Cometh could haul that easily with the weight of a single one of the 16ers removed and could stay off a safe distance from the ice.  Double it for the weight of the winches needed to haul in the cable and the Diesels needed to drive the winches, another 100k pounds perhaps.


>...This is a favourite topic - search tow icebergs...BillK

Thanks BillK!

So now I need to figure out what kind of velocity to expect if we have about a steady 50k pounds force horizontal on a hunk of ice.

spike






From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 18:43:44 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 11:43:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQVRDbvSHCmHzY6Zt8LrhHyc-1aWD9Hmz_j9dOTVzAyjw@mail.gmail.com>

1) Too distant for facial recognition to work.  Much closer and the
drone would fail (due to being shot down).

2) Often times, no line of sight: target is in a cave, building, or
armored transport and won't come into the open.

2a) Required munitions to hit target inside cave/building/armored
transport cause area of effect damage, harming anyone around target.
No other choice, save to not take out target (see "stop the wars",
which requires non-technological resources).

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK you techies, gimme some answers here:
>
> Innocent people are killed by our drones.  (I don't know what one looks like
> or how it acts.)  Why not put a camera on one of those helicopter-like
> drones, with facial recognition software, and only take out the person
> recognized as the target?
>
> Only tech can stop the killing of innocents, unless we just stop the wars
> and go home (my choice).
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 19:34:10 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:34:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] TECH: Google Earth
Message-ID: <CAL_armi7qQyMQfhtFVM80AXoNF4to56zjABk37ER5cuu0vR=fA@mail.gmail.com>

Some months ago Google made Google Earth Pro free to all users.

They have now combined the Free and Pro versions into one 'Pro'
version and added new features to release v.7.3.0.3827.
In the weeks to come, Earth "Free" users will be automatically
upgraded to Earth Pro.
Google says that this will be available for Windows 7 upwards, Mac and
Linux. The Windows version appears to be available now. Mac and Linux
may have to wait a few weeks. :)

<https://productforums.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!category-topic/maps/opv-ok9poRI>


BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 19:44:35 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 12:44:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQVRDbvSHCmHzY6Zt8LrhHyc-1aWD9Hmz_j9dOTVzAyjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQVRDbvSHCmHzY6Zt8LrhHyc-1aWD9Hmz_j9dOTVzAyjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F8BBEB4B-BBFE-4986-8113-7E9D433EE5D1@gmail.com>

On Jul 12, 2017, at 11:43 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) Too distant for facial recognition to work.  Much closer and the
> drone would fail (due to being shot down).
> 
> 2) Often times, no line of sight: target is in a cave, building, or
> armored transport and won't come into the open.
> 
> 2a) Required munitions to hit target inside cave/building/armored
> transport cause area of effect damage, harming anyone around target.
> No other choice, save to not take out target (see "stop the wars",
> which requires non-technological resources).

3. Also, not technological: no penalty to policy-makers for killing innocents by drone. Very similar to the extremely low disincentives to police for killing unarmed folks and dogs.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 19:58:01 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:58:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaE4g0GUcVuSOrgNUNDTAAmeusk+komjOrRHYLtrkB+xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgR8agHpTr_kdu6BTakoEC+U1UUFwVv829+CYgROEVhqA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 July 2017 at 19:32, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Innocent people are killed by our drones.  (I don't know what one looks like
> or how it acts.)  Why not put a camera on one of those helicopter-like
> drones, with facial recognition software, and only take out the person
> recognized as the target?
>
> Only tech can stop the killing of innocents, unless we just stop the wars
> and go home (my choice).
>

The drones used are not the little multi-rotor devices that can carry
a camera and not much else.
The military version is fixed wing aircraft that carry Hellfire
missiles or Paveway guided bombs.
As you might guess these are pretty destructive devices.
One estimate is that the Hellfire missile has a ?kill radius? of 50
feet (15 metres) and a ?wounding radius? of 65 feet (20 metres); the
GBU-12 Paveway II has a ?casualty radius? of between 200 and 300 feet
(within which 50 per cent of people will be killed).

It may be possible in the future to miniaturise everything and get a
device that can seek out a specific person and kill them, but at
present that's science fiction.

BillK



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 21:33:12 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 17:33:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain (was Question for the psych squad?)
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dh=8cjBO22S-JJCBBQgsWr3gh7X1m09aewNgD=tuTenQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <de012797def220145dd242cf97d51e17.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv0LDjCZu06aS1oj2CWsvkYDzrQKbL=TkTo_AqVO4zCsgA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
?

> ?> ?
> The circle made by a blacksmith is an approximation of the mathematical
> ideal circle.
>

?Are you sure it isn't ?the other way around?



> ?> ?
> The hurricane model isn't an ideal that real hurricanes try to achieve.
>

?
There is no universal agreement on what is ideal and what is not, but I
think it's objectively true that a real Hurricane is a richer more complex
phenomenon than the meteorologist's
? model of it. It's not clear to me there isn't a similar relationship
between Euclid's circle and a blacksmith's.   ?

?  John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 22:10:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 17:10:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage/reply to all
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZkwSwogCiqs-QGe9-etbzJ=2anHDYSxcEZ2W1v1LGT0Q@mail.gmail.com>

 Reply to all re drone:  Well, why not make them very small, quiet, armed
with bullets and not bombs.  I see that it cannot be done with what they
have now, so design something a bit more 'moral'.  It could be the perfect
assassination weapon.  I do see the point of no incentive to do this

On the other hand, I do read that Pakistan and Afghanistan (both, I think )
have bitterly complained about the collateral damage, so there is a bit of
incentive to redesign.

Maybe nanotechnology will come along and make this weapon almost too small
to see, like a wasp, carrying tiny darts full of poison.  Then of course
everyone will reverse engineer it and then Hell will break loose all over
the planet.  I am assuming that it could be controlled at a distance.

Where are the antiwar people taking the streets over these outrages?

bill w



On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 2:58 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12 July 2017 at 19:32, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> > Innocent people are killed by our drones.  (I don't know what one looks
> like
> > or how it acts.)  Why not put a camera on one of those helicopter-like
> > drones, with facial recognition software, and only take out the person
> > recognized as the target?
> >
> > Only tech can stop the killing of innocents, unless we just stop the wars
> > and go home (my choice).
> >
>
> The drones used are not the little multi-rotor devices that can carry
> a camera and not much else.
> The military version is fixed wing aircraft that carry Hellfire
> missiles or Paveway guided bombs.
> As you might guess these are pretty destructive devices.
> One estimate is that the Hellfire missile has a ?kill radius? of 50
> feet (15 metres) and a ?wounding radius? of 65 feet (20 metres); the
> GBU-12 Paveway II has a ?casualty radius? of between 200 and 300 feet
> (within which 50 per cent of people will be killed).
>
> It may be possible in the future to miniaturise everything and get a
> device that can seek out a specific person and kill them, but at
> present that's science fiction.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 22:52:04 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 23:52:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage/reply to all
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZkwSwogCiqs-QGe9-etbzJ=2anHDYSxcEZ2W1v1LGT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZkwSwogCiqs-QGe9-etbzJ=2anHDYSxcEZ2W1v1LGT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhJoZzd1dT=9QD5s8GmeUNatBCwnM_gmiu90G93g1SW_w@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 July 2017 at 23:10, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
>  Reply to all re drone:  Well, why not make them very small, quiet, armed
> with bullets and not bombs.  I see that it cannot be done with what they
> have now, so design something a bit more 'moral'.  It could be the perfect
> assassination weapon.  I do see the point of no incentive to do this
>
> On the other hand, I do read that Pakistan and Afghanistan (both, I think )
> have bitterly complained about the collateral damage, so there is a bit of
> incentive to redesign.
>
> Maybe nanotechnology will come along and make this weapon almost too small
> to see, like a wasp, carrying tiny darts full of poison.  Then of course
> everyone will reverse engineer it and then Hell will break loose all over
> the planet.  I am assuming that it could be controlled at a distance.
>
> Where are the antiwar people taking the streets over these outrages?
>


Yes, it is an outrage. But it is also a pointless outrage as drone
strikes and bombs are making the situation worse. In these countries
almost everyone now hates Americans. The only ones who 'help' the
Americans are corrupt people who take US money, misuse money meant for
reconstruction and use US forces to kill their enemies by telling the
US that their enemies are terrorists. The US forces are stuck in a
hellhole quagmire.

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 12 23:24:04 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 16:24:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] collateral damage/reply to all
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZkwSwogCiqs-QGe9-etbzJ=2anHDYSxcEZ2W1v1LGT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZkwSwogCiqs-QGe9-etbzJ=2anHDYSxcEZ2W1v1LGT0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8F0FAF1-47F4-4D2A-8490-86C61A8D3A19@gmail.com>

On Jul 12, 2017, at 3:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  Reply to all re drone:  Well, why not make them very small, quiet, armed with bullets and not bombs.  I see that it cannot be done with what they have now, so design something a bit more 'moral'.  It could be the perfect assassination weapon.  I do see the point of no incentive to do this
> 
> On the other hand, I do read that Pakistan and Afghanistan (both, I think ) have bitterly complained about the collateral damage, so there is a bit of incentive to redesign.
> 
> Maybe nanotechnology will come along and make this weapon almost too small to see, like a wasp, carrying tiny darts full of poison.  Then of course everyone will reverse engineer it and then Hell will break loose all over the planet.  I am assuming that it could be controlled at a distance.
> 
> Where are the antiwar people taking the streets over these outrages?

There have been protests, though, for the most part, these don't get well reported. This was especially so under the last president. Now much of it gets even more swallowed up in partisan politics. (Overall, whoever is in power will get a pass from their fellow party members for carrying out the same bad policies. In this case, too, the added component is that the problems fall mainly on foreigners in foreign lands that few Americans will ever visit -- save for those in the military.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 19:37:23 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 20:37:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions like
	humans
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>

By Jonathan Wilson     Published Wednesday, July 5, 2017
<https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2017/07/self-driving-cars-to-make-moral-and-ethical-decisions-like-humans/>

Quote:
A new study has demonstrated that human ethical decisions can be
implemented into machines using morality modelling. This has strong
implications for how autonomous vehicles could effectively manage the
moral dilemmas they will face on the road.

The results were conceptualised by statistical models leading to
rules, with an associated degree of explanatory power to explain the
observed behavior. The research showed that moral decisions in the
scope of unavoidable traffic collisions can be explained well, and
modelled, by a single value-of-life for every human, animal or
inanimate object.

Leon S?tfeld, the first author of the study, says that until now it
has been assumed that moral decisions are strongly context dependent
and therefore cannot be modelled or described algorithmically.

?We found quite the opposite?, he said. ?Human behavior in dilemma
situations can be modelled by a rather simple value-of-life-based
model that is attributed by the participant to every human, animal, or
inanimate object.?

This implies that human moral behavior can be well described by
algorithms that could be used by machines as well.

Prof. Gordon Pipa, a senior author of the study, says that since it
now seems to be possible that machines can be programmed to make
human-like moral decisions, it is crucial that society engages in an
urgent and serious debate.

?We need to ask whether autonomous systems should adopt moral
judgements,? he said. ?If yes, should they imitate moral behavior by
imitating human decisions, should they behave along ethical theories
and if so, which ones and critically, if things go wrong who or what
is at fault??

----------------------


My worry is that everyone has different ethical systems.

I'm not sure that I would buy a 'Jesus-freak' car that says "I'm very
sorry Bill, but my ethics module says that in this situation saving
your life is not the most efficient solution".


BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 14 22:29:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 17:29:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>

My worry is that everyone has different ethical systems.
BillK

Surely any system will prefer saving lives to preserving objects.  Whether
it should put equal weight to its riders and the other car's riders, or
prefer its riders is a problem to be worked out.

Another issue:  there are many different ways to get into an accident, and
many other types of vehicles to get into one with.  If the other is a smart
car, then it's one thing, if it's a rig (lorry) then it's another thing
entirely.  So many different situations to program for.

bill w

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 2:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> By Jonathan Wilson     Published Wednesday, July 5, 2017
> <https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2017/07/self-
> driving-cars-to-make-moral-and-ethical-decisions-like-humans/>
>
> Quote:
> A new study has demonstrated that human ethical decisions can be
> implemented into machines using morality modelling. This has strong
> implications for how autonomous vehicles could effectively manage the
> moral dilemmas they will face on the road.
>
> The results were conceptualised by statistical models leading to
> rules, with an associated degree of explanatory power to explain the
> observed behavior. The research showed that moral decisions in the
> scope of unavoidable traffic collisions can be explained well, and
> modelled, by a single value-of-life for every human, animal or
> inanimate object.
>
> Leon S?tfeld, the first author of the study, says that until now it
> has been assumed that moral decisions are strongly context dependent
> and therefore cannot be modelled or described algorithmically.
>
> ?We found quite the opposite?, he said. ?Human behavior in dilemma
> situations can be modelled by a rather simple value-of-life-based
> model that is attributed by the participant to every human, animal, or
> inanimate object.?
>
> This implies that human moral behavior can be well described by
> algorithms that could be used by machines as well.
>
> Prof. Gordon Pipa, a senior author of the study, says that since it
> now seems to be possible that machines can be programmed to make
> human-like moral decisions, it is crucial that society engages in an
> urgent and serious debate.
>
> ?We need to ask whether autonomous systems should adopt moral
> judgements,? he said. ?If yes, should they imitate moral behavior by
> imitating human decisions, should they behave along ethical theories
> and if so, which ones and critically, if things go wrong who or what
> is at fault??
>
> ----------------------
>
>
> My worry is that everyone has different ethical systems.
>
> I'm not sure that I would buy a 'Jesus-freak' car that says "I'm very
> sorry Bill, but my ethics module says that in this situation saving
> your life is not the most efficient solution".
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul 15 10:58:36 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:58:36 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Space Decentral Update: Merging with Space Cooperative
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycvoZWBYgzKeNkc+gnNCRDZ9cOJtvbtANNCw9K7p3xzkA@mail.gmail.com>

A few months ago I created a working group with a few friends
interested in space and crypto to develop a solid, sustainable design
for Space Decentral: A decentralized autonomous space agency of the
people, by the people, for the people. Now Space Decentral is merging
with Space Cooperative. Together we will leverage recent developments
in cryptography (DAOs, DACs, tokens and all that) to bootstrap a
global, distributed, decentralized, P2P space agency...

https://giulioprisco.com/space-decentral-update-merging-with-space-cooperative-da3a3d21d1a0


From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Jul 16 02:12:52 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 02:12:52 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <f7a8c2b31beee28585eca5c2e561bd7e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <f7a8c2b31beee28585eca5c2e561bd7e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUeD5T_o15hsfAm01qnn1HDACcP9ZbUMr3v0eE5KCxF3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 July 2017 at 15:56, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>
> >Calculus works on computer simulations and they are discrete. And if the
> >world really is continuous, it can be simulated on a computer to an
> >arbitrary level of precision. If the 50th decimal place of any physical
> >parameter in your brain is essential to your consciousness, you could not
> >survive, as you would be instantly destroyed by thermal noise.
>
> Even if the brain itself does not have an explicit mechanism to access
> these infinities, if they exist in the brain's environment, they could
> affect brain function. Is your consciousness destroyed by hanging upside
> down? No, of course not. But is your consciousness affected by hanging
> upside down? Probably. You are unlikely to perform as well on an iq test
> while hanging upside down for example. How about if I were to slowly
> adjust your angle relative to gravity until you are at 180 degrees. At
> what point would your mind "change"?
>
> Any arbitrary decimal approximation of the continuum loses an infinite set
> of possible values that are no longer accessible. Moreover, those lost
> values are uncountably infinite so you are losing *amost all* of the
> possible values you had to begin with.
>

Angular displacement of the body will have an effect on neurones, perhaps
by stretching the cell membrane and hence altering the excitability
threshold and the propagation of the action potential. An accurate model of
the brain should therefore take this parameter into account. However, at
some level of resolution the effect will be swamped by noise. So it would
be wasted effort to model angular displacement to 10 decimal places when -
again in order to be accurate - you would have to throw away 5 decimal
places due to the thermal noise inherent in a biological system at body
temperature.


> >Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out
> an
> >infinite non-repeating decimal.
>
> Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity and
> discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
> numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't think a
> computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack overflow
> error.


A dog doesn't have much concept of infinity, but its brain is not that that
dissimilar to yours and mine. If we push the point, I don't think any human
can "really" grasp infinity and irrational numbers, even if if they can
manipulate and utilise them as concepts, in the way a computer algebra
system such as Wolfram Alpha can.

>A random number generator could be used for unpredictability.
>
> There isn't any deterministic way of achieving randomness thus random
> numbers generated by computer are pseudorandom and patterns do show up
> upon statistical analysis. Furthermore, irrational behavior need not be
> unpredictable behavior' although it often is.


I don't know of any evidence that a system will behave fundamentally
differently with a truly random as opposed to pseudorandom input, or that
it is possible in general to distinguish between truly random and
pseudorandom.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul 16 14:03:31 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 10:03:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Video flyover of Pluto
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1qQTqz2_4zB_w5kNO=h+j_CL3encvVfpGEKz6QoaEtGQ@mail.gmail.com>

NASA just
?released
 a video flyover of Pluto
? made from data obtained from the ?
New Horizons
? spacecraft. ? Pretty cool when you think that until just a few years ago
the best pictures ground based telescopes could get of Pluto only had 9
pixels:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwOJkBgW9FQ

?John K Clark?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jul 16 16:24:41 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:24:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <71b906971ae1a47315d0e1dc04793548.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <71b906971ae1a47315d0e1dc04793548.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3ydM1uRS=gdMh_ujovH4uAG6Og4f40Ps78uxFYpz4BbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 4:15 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> if space-time is discrete, it opens up a whole can of worms even at
> ? ?
> the planck level once you enable more than a single dimension. For
> ? ?
> example, lets say that for the sake of argument that the Planck length
> ? ?
> (Lp) is the fundamental and thus indivisible unit of length. A pixle of
> ? ?
> the universe if you will.
> ? ?
> Then what is minimal unit of 2-dimensional area? If you say that it is
> ? ?
> Lp^2, then that is wrong because the Pythagorean theorem says that
> ? [...]?
>

?If
 space-time is discrete
? then the ?
Pythagorean theorem
? is only a approximation that works pretty well as long as things don't
get too small. But I don't see how the existence of the continuum is of any
relevance to the question of a conscious AI. Neither a computer nor the
human brain can count the number of points on a line, but both can use
calculus to fine the exact area under a parabola; assuming of course that
lines and parabolas actually exist and are not just useful fictions.

>
?>I know this is a bit heretical but perhaps irrational numbers really do
>> ? ?
>> have a last digit. ?If the computational resources of the entire universe
>> ? ?
>> is insufficient to calculate the
>> ? ?
>> 10^100^100^100 digit of PI, and given that
>> ? ?
>> there are only about 10^81 atoms in the observable universe that seems
>> ? ?
>> like a reasonable assumption,
>> ? ?
>> could the ?10^100^100^100?
>> ? ?
>> digit of PI
>> ? ?
>> even be said to exist??
>
>

?> ?
> There are two problems with this argument. First, the observable universe
> ? ?
> is just a cosmological horizon, and we don't have any reason to believe
> ? ?
> the universe ends at the horizon.


?There are only 3 possibilities:

1) Nothing exists outside the cosmological horizon.
2) A Finite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.
3) A infinite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.

All 3 violate a cherished scientific principle and yet one of them must be
true. If you assume #1 is true then the Earth occupies a special position,
it is the center of a finite flat spacetime universe. If you assume #2 or
#3 is true then it's OK for a scienctific theory to conjure up things that
are in neither your past nor your future causal lightcone. And with #3 you
must also conjure up physical infinity even though there is no evidence
there are a infinite number of any physical object.
>
>
?> ?
> Secondly, given the set of all 10^81 atoms that you mention, there are
> ? ?
> 2^10^81 possible subsets of those atoms.


?Are there? I would argue (as a devil's advocate) that if finding all 2^10^81
subsets is beyond the computational capacity of the observable universe
(and whatever the unobservable universe can do is of no help whatsoever)
then saying all those subsets exist has no meaning. And besides, 2^10^81 is
no closer to being infinite than the number two is.


> >
>> ?> ?
>> If ?perfect circles don't exist is there anything about them to
>> understand?
>
>
> ?> ?
> Yes. How did something that does not exist become so fundamental in
> ? ?
> describing so much of what we can see and observe?


?The human mind is not infinitely powerful so in dealing with the
staggering complexity of the world approximations are needed. The idea that
the planets moved in perfect circles around the sun worked pretty well but
Kepler showed that a more complex mathematical curve, the ellipse, worked
better. And then Einstein showed that even a ellipse wasn't quite right,
but to understand how and why Einstein said the planets move high school
geometry is not enough, you need 4 dimensional Tensor calculus and
hyperbolic spacetime. And even Einstein wasn't quite right because he
didn't take quantum mechanics into account. So when a child asks you how
planets move it's best to just say "in a circle".


> ?> ?
> Without perfect
> ? ?
> circles, you can't have complex numbers. And without complex numbers you
> ? ?
> can't have probability amplitudes


?And without a brain made of atoms that obey the laws of physics "you"
can't have ?
probability amplitudes
?, in fact you can't even have you.?


> ?> ?
> Math is like the soul of the universe and an infinite number of angles can
> ? ?
> dance on the head of a pin.
> ? ?
> Sorry, I couldn't resist the pun. :-)


?Yes but are the number of angles on that pun, sorry I mean pin, countably
infinite or can they be put into a one to one correspondence with the
number of points on a line? ?

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 16 17:45:11 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2017 12:45:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUeD5T_o15hsfAm01qnn1HDACcP9ZbUMr3v0eE5KCxF3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f7a8c2b31beee28585eca5c2e561bd7e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypUeD5T_o15hsfAm01qnn1HDACcP9ZbUMr3v0eE5KCxF3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYnUNMLGhX3UoDarTRa6_WFL+phcO-mMjTEWkmU8Feasg@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart wrote this, I think:

 Furthermore, irrational behavior need not be
> unpredictable behavior' although it often is.


When I was married to a financial planner, I was just amazed at how many
people wanted to sell their investments when the market went down.  I even
talked to some of them myself:  I said "You want to sell when your stocks
are low and buy them back when they are high?"  And they had no answer for
that.  They looked at me without comprehension.  They were just very
nervous and did not know what to do.

I think you will find many situations in which people are predictably
irrational.  Isn't the whole thing about Kahnemann turning over the
standard economic model
which assumes people will act rationally?  And the economics people are
(irrationally) resistant to what is very clear:  people don't even usually
act in their best interests, economically or otherwise.  Let's hear a big
round of applause for Freud:  champion of irrational unconscious
determinants of behavior. (Wrong about many things but right about the big
ones.)

bill w



Bill

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 9:12 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 12 July 2017 at 15:56, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
>> Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>>
>> >Calculus works on computer simulations and they are discrete. And if the
>> >world really is continuous, it can be simulated on a computer to an
>> >arbitrary level of precision. If the 50th decimal place of any physical
>> >parameter in your brain is essential to your consciousness, you could not
>> >survive, as you would be instantly destroyed by thermal noise.
>>
>> Even if the brain itself does not have an explicit mechanism to access
>> these infinities, if they exist in the brain's environment, they could
>> affect brain function. Is your consciousness destroyed by hanging upside
>> down? No, of course not. But is your consciousness affected by hanging
>> upside down? Probably. You are unlikely to perform as well on an iq test
>> while hanging upside down for example. How about if I were to slowly
>> adjust your angle relative to gravity until you are at 180 degrees. At
>> what point would your mind "change"?
>>
>> Any arbitrary decimal approximation of the continuum loses an infinite set
>> of possible values that are no longer accessible. Moreover, those lost
>> values are uncountably infinite so you are losing *amost all* of the
>> possible values you had to begin with.
>>
>
> Angular displacement of the body will have an effect on neurones, perhaps
> by stretching the cell membrane and hence altering the excitability
> threshold and the propagation of the action potential. An accurate model of
> the brain should therefore take this parameter into account. However, at
> some level of resolution the effect will be swamped by noise. So it would
> be wasted effort to model angular displacement to 10 decimal places when -
> again in order to be accurate - you would have to throw away 5 decimal
> places due to the thermal noise inherent in a biological system at body
> temperature.
>
>
>> >Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out
>> an
>> >infinite non-repeating decimal.
>>
>> Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity and
>> discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
>> numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't think a
>> computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack overflow
>> error.
>
>
> A dog doesn't have much concept of infinity, but its brain is not that
> that dissimilar to yours and mine. If we push the point, I don't think any
> human can "really" grasp infinity and irrational numbers, even if if they
> can manipulate and utilise them as concepts, in the way a computer algebra
> system such as Wolfram Alpha can.
>
> >A random number generator could be used for unpredictability.
>>
>> There isn't any deterministic way of achieving randomness thus random
>> numbers generated by computer are pseudorandom and patterns do show up
>> upon statistical analysis. Furthermore, irrational behavior need not be
>> unpredictable behavior' although it often is.
>
>
> I don't know of any evidence that a system will behave fundamentally
> differently with a truly random as opposed to pseudorandom input, or that
> it is possible in general to distinguish between truly random and
> pseudorandom.
>
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jul 17 10:16:31 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:16:31 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Terasem workshop in Second Life, July 20: David Brin
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyftLGUwsj+0pB8oP4Mq5+5yXtAkcALWGsSMK2-9BGxvOw@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem workshop in Second Life, July 20: David Brin

Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology will take
place as usual on July 20 in the Terasem sim, Second Life, with top
speakers including scientist, tech consultant and top science fiction
writer David Brin...
https://turingchurch.net/terasem-workshop-in-second-life-july-20-david-brin-9b41d38497d1



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jul 17 14:38:01 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:38:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>

On 14 July 2017 at 23:29, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> Surely any system will prefer saving lives to preserving objects.  Whether
> it should put equal weight to its riders and the other car's riders, or
> prefer its riders is a problem to be worked out.
>
> Another issue:  there are many different ways to get into an accident, and
> many other types of vehicles to get into one with.  If the other is a smart
> car, then it's one thing, if it's a rig (lorry) then it's another thing
> entirely.  So many different situations to program for.
>


I agree that saving lives is preferred to saving material damage. That
is already designed into cars by way of crumple zones and safety cages
that protect the passengers while destroying the vehicle.

My concern was designing 'one-size-fits-all' rules for the car AI that
would stop people buying these cars because they disagree with the
imposed morality choices.

Many people would want a rule to save the driver's life wherever
possible, regardless of who else might be killed. Where there is a
choice of who or how many might be killed or injured, people would
like some say in how the car AI is programmed, before entrusting their
lives and their families lives to it.

BillK


From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Mon Jul 17 17:37:32 2017
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:37:32 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Nanotechnology Industries News!
Message-ID: <CAMd8APxzH_OipwOOnojMRQd2QBmai9e_byf1800yT-G2zaWJUw@mail.gmail.com>

Nanotechnology Industries announces the launch of the newly beautifully
designed website! As a nanotechnology news and networking portal since 1998
it has been restructured to offer marketing services. It is now a
nanotechnology media house, creating nanotech designs, animations and
videos for companies, organizations, individuals and for educational
purposes.

See the work, watch an episode of Nanotube TV, learn more about nanotech
and access nano resources by visiting: http://nanoindustries.com

Also visit Miller Marketing to see non nanotech designs, videos and
marketing concepts: www.millermarketing.co

If you need or know someone who needs visual work please reach out!

Thank you!

Gina ?Nanogirl? Miller
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 00:47:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:47:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>

billk wrote:   people would like some say in how the car AI is programmed,
before entrusting their
? ?
lives and their families lives to it.

I can't see laws mandating conditions that would make people not buy the
cars.  Protect all the passengers, then the other vehicle's passengers,
then consider damage.

Any other set of conditions, I think, will create buyer resistance.

bill w

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 9:38 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 14 July 2017 at 23:29, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> > Surely any system will prefer saving lives to preserving objects.
> Whether
> > it should put equal weight to its riders and the other car's riders, or
> > prefer its riders is a problem to be worked out.
> >
> > Another issue:  there are many different ways to get into an accident,
> and
> > many other types of vehicles to get into one with.  If the other is a
> smart
> > car, then it's one thing, if it's a rig (lorry) then it's another thing
> > entirely.  So many different situations to program for.
> >
>
>
> I agree that saving lives is preferred to saving material damage. That
> is already designed into cars by way of crumple zones and safety cages
> that protect the passengers while destroying the vehicle.
>
> My concern was designing 'one-size-fits-all' rules for the car AI that
> would stop people buying these cars because they disagree with the
> imposed morality choices.
>
> Many people would want a rule to save the driver's life wherever
> possible, regardless of who else might be killed. Where there is a
> choice of who or how many might be killed or injured, people would
> like some say in how the car AI is programmed, before entrusting their
> lives and their families lives to it.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 01:24:06 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:24:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>

On Jul 17, 2017, at 5:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> billk wrote:   people would like some say in how the car AI is programmed, before entrusting their? ?lives and their families lives to it.
> 
> I can't see laws mandating conditions that would make people not buy the cars.  Protect all the passengers, then the other vehicle's passengers, then consider damage.
> 
> Any other set of conditions, I think, will create buyer resistance.

On a tangent from this topic, I was wonder if with self-driving cars it wouldn't make more sense to move away from ownership to something like a subscription model. I only need a car when I want to go somewhere... since it's self-driving, once it gets me there, it can run other errands -- presumably moving other people around -- until I need to go somewhere else. A subscription for self-driving cars might mean I subscribe to the service, use it when I need it and might not always be using the same car.

Regarding the moral decisions thing, I think people will actually show themselves not to differ so much here when it comes to selecting actual AIs that decide one way or another. 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 08:13:07 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:13:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 July 2017 at 02:24, Dan TheBookMan  wrote:
> On a tangent from this topic, I was wonder if with self-driving cars it
> wouldn't make more sense to move away from ownership to something like a
> subscription model. I only need a car when I want to go somewhere... since
> it's self-driving, once it gets me there, it can run other errands --
> presumably moving other people around -- until I need to go somewhere else.
> A subscription for self-driving cars might mean I subscribe to the service,
> use it when I need it and might not always be using the same car.
>
> Regarding the moral decisions thing, I think people will actually show
> themselves not to differ so much here when it comes to selecting actual AIs
> that decide one way or another.
>


Re AI car subscription model, the problem I have seen raised is 'who
is going to clean the car out?'. :)

Taxi and Uber drivers already face the problem of cleaning their cars
after disruptive passengers.
(Disruptive behaviour covers a very wide range, from litter, lost
possessions, damage, vomiting, using the taxi as a toilet, etc.). With
no human driver supervision, passenger behaviour could be expected to
get worse.

There will be video cameras, of course, and the customer credit card
could be charged for cleaning and repair costs. But there will still
have to be base station facilities set up to do the cleaning and
repairs and administration systems to recover costs. Uber drivers
usually just bear the cost themselves as it is too much trouble to
chase customers for payment.

It will be interesting to see how human behaviour changes when we no
longer 'own' anything, just pay for hire when required.

BillK


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 09:02:08 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:02:08 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Terasem workshop in Second Life, July 20: David Orban
Message-ID: <CAKTCJychFuV_Eoqs=RmLHM1-sz=R3QjbKuVPm7vnSyW=AaF9tQ@mail.gmail.com>

Terasem workshop in Second Life, July 20: David Orban

Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology will take
place as usual on July 20 in the Terasem sim, Second Life, with top
speakers including David Orban, founder of Network Society Research,
faculty member and advisor at Singularity University,..

https://turingchurch.net/terasem-workshop-in-second-life-july-20-david-orban-4e7f5e2cc24e



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 18 14:51:28 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 07:51:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical
	decisions	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
like humans



>...Re AI car subscription model, the problem I have seen raised is 'who is
going to clean the car out?'. :)

>...Taxi and Uber drivers already face the problem of cleaning their cars
after disruptive passengers.
(Disruptive behaviour covers a very wide range, from litter, lost
possessions, damage, vomiting, using the taxi as a toilet, etc.). With no
human driver supervision, passenger behaviour could be expected to get
worse...BillK
_______________________________________________

It is surprising how little has been said about that.  

Consider one of the biggest challenges of urban stealth sweethearts: finding
some private space.  Driverless Uber cars would be just the thing for that.
The whole notion gives me a great idea.  Consider public restrooms: you
don't want to touch anything, so they supply those paper ass-gaskets.  Now
think of the driverless Uber-car: a disposable sheet of something you use to
prevent having to touch the same public surface from which that exhausted
young couple just emerged: a seat-condom.  We could make a buttload of
money.

spike   



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 18 15:40:56 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 08:40:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and
	ethical	decisions	like humans
In-Reply-To: <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
Message-ID: <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>


>>... On Behalf Of spike

_______________________________________________


>...Consider one of the biggest challenges of urban stealth sweethearts:
finding some private space.  Driverless Uber cars would be just the thing
for that.
The whole notion gives me a great idea.  Consider public restrooms: you
don't want to touch anything, so they supply those paper ass-gaskets.  Now
think of the driverless Uber-car: a disposable sheet of something you use to
prevent having to touch the same public surface from which that exhausted
young couple just emerged: a seat-condom.  We could make a buttload of
money.

spike   

_______________________________________________


Hey even after we start the seat-condom company, the driverless Uber car
notion can launch another new industry and a second corresponding
counter-industry.  We have seen those nifty battery-powered stand-alone
video cameras.  Those things would be easy to hide in an Uber car.  Any
yahoo could take one home, hide one of those cameras anywhere: inside a
visor, under the dashboard somehow, wouldn't be hard to do.  Hide the
receiver/transmitter unit in the trunk or underneath the spare tire.  Tell
the car to go back to... wherever driverless Uber cars sleep.  Next couple
gets in, unwittingly makes video in compromising situation which is
transmitted realtime.  Face recognition software, yahoo discovers it is the
local Baptist minister and the choir director!  Ransom!

Counter-industry: some kind of jamming device or degausser which would
prevent realtime transmission of amateur porno video.

Oh the money to be made here.

Ain't capitalism fun?

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 18 16:12:54 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:12:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral
	and	ethical	decisions	like humans
In-Reply-To: <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
 <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike

_______________________________________________


>>...Consider one of the biggest challenges of urban stealth sweethearts:
finding some private space.  Driverless Uber cars would be just the thing
for that...

spike   

_______________________________________________


>...  Face recognition software, yahoo discovers it is the local Baptist
minister and the choir director!  Ransom!

>...Counter-industry: some kind of jamming device or degausser which would
prevent realtime transmission of amateur porno video.

>...Oh the money to be made here.

>...spike

_______________________________________________


Wait, better idea.  

Scenario: scoundrel takes driverless Uber car home, hides camera.  We create
a device which recognizes an outgoing signal anywhere nearby, then transmits
its own signal at that frequency at a much higher power.  We create a phony
video using actual porno actors, create script which allows the scoundrel to
find out the (phony) identity of the passengers: "Oh Reverend Carbuncle, you
are so hot!"  "Please, Susie May, you may call me Fester."

Set up a phony website with a megachurch somewhere, head pastor Rev. Fester
N. Carbuncle, Choir Director Susie May Rottencrotch.  Now the trap is set.
Scoundrel contacts phony megachurch demanding ransom, we demand some kind of
evidence the scoundrel has actual video, we set up some means of tracking
source of email, POW!  We catch her!

We were so worried the future wouldn't have enough jobs, heh, nonsense.
There will be plenty of new ones.  Granted, they will be some really weird
jobs.

spike 




From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:18:39 2017
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:18:39 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Test
Message-ID: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>

Please respond if you get this. Thanks!

-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:18:33 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:18:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
 <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
 <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUCnBjQaizJtJ_-LSMeNbPnz74CrYg09QhWukXHwpfRQ@mail.gmail.com>

 spike wrote;  Consider public restrooms: you
don't want to touch anything, so they supply those *paper ass-gaskets.*

Funnier than a rubber crutch and just as useless.

According to the books I have read recently, featuring new practices such
as wiping vaginal fluid all over a newborn who has been delivered by
C-section, we should sit our asses down and be happy to pick up some new
germs for our immune system to learn.

Not far in the future:  Probiotics (already here) are expanded by several
factors and administered to babies at every pediatrician visit.  Far better
and easier than having them play in stockyard dirt/manure, and with animals
of all kinds, including strange children (such as Spike and I were).

No doubt you have heard all this but just consider:  maybe instead of
reaching for the spray bottle of alcohol in the doctor's office, we should
just kiss everyone there on the mouth.

My my, how things change regarding our attitudes towards germs.  As I said
in an earlier post:  our greatest enemies, our greatest friends.

bill w

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:12 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
> Behalf
> Of spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> >>...Consider one of the biggest challenges of urban stealth sweethearts:
> finding some private space.  Driverless Uber cars would be just the thing
> for that...
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> >...  Face recognition software, yahoo discovers it is the local Baptist
> minister and the choir director!  Ransom!
>
> >...Counter-industry: some kind of jamming device or degausser which would
> prevent realtime transmission of amateur porno video.
>
> >...Oh the money to be made here.
>
> >...spike
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Wait, better idea.
>
> Scenario: scoundrel takes driverless Uber car home, hides camera.  We
> create
> a device which recognizes an outgoing signal anywhere nearby, then
> transmits
> its own signal at that frequency at a much higher power.  We create a phony
> video using actual porno actors, create script which allows the scoundrel
> to
> find out the (phony) identity of the passengers: "Oh Reverend Carbuncle,
> you
> are so hot!"  "Please, Susie May, you may call me Fester."
>
> Set up a phony website with a megachurch somewhere, head pastor Rev. Fester
> N. Carbuncle, Choir Director Susie May Rottencrotch.  Now the trap is set.
> Scoundrel contacts phony megachurch demanding ransom, we demand some kind
> of
> evidence the scoundrel has actual video, we set up some means of tracking
> source of email, POW!  We catch her!
>
> We were so worried the future wouldn't have enough jobs, heh, nonsense.
> There will be plenty of new ones.  Granted, they will be some really weird
> jobs.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:21:20 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:21:20 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Test
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeVsWN9n_p8yNmvYcvwWrCe=Dbsz-dJGhwWpJyL0ebqKg@mail.gmail.com>

Loud and clear!

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Please respond if you get this. Thanks!
>
> --
> Gina Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:23:47 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:23:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7B8A5A23-16CF-4734-8CD1-10BCD22772D5@gmail.com>

Got it!

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

> On Jul 18, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Please respond if you get this. Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> Gina Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:25:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:25:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] phthalates
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>

Just when everybody was switching to processed frozen foods, etc., here
comes pollution from mac and cheese and packaging.  Who is going to go back
to cooking at home?  I already do.

Notice the time frame between adding phthalates to foods and suspecting
them of health effects.

I have trusted this source for some time now, and have found little BS on
it.  Rather conservative, in fact.

https://examine.com/nutrition/fact-check-is-boxed-macaroni-and-cheese-actually-toxic/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blog-071817
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:26:36 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:26:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeVsWN9n_p8yNmvYcvwWrCe=Dbsz-dJGhwWpJyL0ebqKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeVsWN9n_p8yNmvYcvwWrCe=Dbsz-dJGhwWpJyL0ebqKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEai7m=dSpoZvU6228LSX96tTE=c0iv3w-8hYjp=M1Vp9w@mail.gmail.com>

Eh?  Can't hear you.  Speak louder!  Wait, my hearing aids need batteries.
 bill w

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Loud and clear!
>
> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Please respond if you get this. Thanks!
>>
>> --
>> Gina Miller
>> millermarketing.co
>> nanoindustries.com
>> nanogirl.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:29:30 2017
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 10:29:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpGd_y8-uPshGzm4++Fnr_=uoUBnpE2b3Vqr6XJVjnee1g@mail.gmail.com>

responding with delight

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm>

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Please respond if you get this. Thanks!
>
> --
> Gina Miller
> millermarketing.co
> nanoindustries.com
> nanogirl.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 17:59:55 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 18:59:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] phthalates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armg7hKYnA5009H=FFuu0OGBW+gQDLasRg48S3eo9tvmkqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 July 2017 at 18:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> Just when everybody was switching to processed frozen foods, etc., here
> comes pollution from mac and cheese and packaging.  Who is going to go back
> to cooking at home?  I already do.
>
> Notice the time frame between adding phthalates to foods and suspecting them
> of health effects.
>
> I have trusted this source for some time now, and have found little BS on
> it.  Rather conservative, in fact.
>
> https://examine.com/nutrition/fact-check-is-boxed-macaroni-and-cheese-actually-toxic/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=blog-071817
>


Phthalates can be detected in almost everything as plastics are so
common in our modern life. As the article says, nobody knows what
level is toxic and whether the traces in food products pose any risk.

Quote:
Phthalates are very common?they are used in cosmetics, skin creams,
pesticides, lubricants, fragrances, pharmaceutical products, etc.,
according to a 2002 report from the Food and Drug Administration.
------------

On the other hand, home cooking with lots of vegetables is indeed to
be preferred over packet meals.


BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 20:09:09 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:09:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] phthalates
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armg7hKYnA5009H=FFuu0OGBW+gQDLasRg48S3eo9tvmkqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg7hKYnA5009H=FFuu0OGBW+gQDLasRg48S3eo9tvmkqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY1grBB9yOQkP3HV29X4xPr3SJox2gY2e-xgmFWOHa_mA@mail.gmail.com>

bill k wrote

 nobody knows what level is toxic and whether the traces in food products
pose any risk.
----------
And why not?  Why don't we know the toxic levels when the substance is in
so many things?  As is so many other things, the FDA drops the ball once
again.

Plastics have been around for a long time and I am just now finding out
that one should not microwave something in a plastic container?

Assumed safe on the basis of no research.

bill w

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:59 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18 July 2017 at 18:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> > Just when everybody was switching to processed frozen foods, etc., here
> > comes pollution from mac and cheese and packaging.  Who is going to go
> back
> > to cooking at home?  I already do.
> >
> > Notice the time frame between adding phthalates to foods and suspecting
> them
> > of health effects.
> >
> > I have trusted this source for some time now, and have found little BS on
> > it.  Rather conservative, in fact.
> >
> > https://examine.com/nutrition/fact-check-is-boxed-macaroni-
> and-cheese-actually-toxic/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_
> medium=email&utm_campaign=blog-071817
> >
>
>
> Phthalates can be detected in almost everything as plastics are so
> common in our modern life. As the article says, nobody knows what
> level is toxic and whether the traces in food products pose any risk.
>
> Quote:
> Phthalates are very common?they are used in cosmetics, skin creams,
> pesticides, lubricants, fragrances, pharmaceutical products, etc.,
> according to a 2002 report from the Food and Drug Administration.
> ------------
>
> On the other hand, home cooking with lots of vegetables is indeed to
> be preferred over packet meals.
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 20:29:25 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 16:29:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] phthalates
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZZT5LiTZHzdoJbqcY8XzpUPZSicferHmtmKvHwO4CoXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEqhNLR_9WShEdLPO2taMxr18zP3+98roXqsb3v227ppA@mail.gmail.com>

On Jul 18, 2017 13:28, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

Just when everybody was switching to processed frozen foods, etc., here
comes pollution from mac and cheese and packaging.  Who is going to go back
to cooking at home?  I already do.


Who is switching to processed frozen foods????  Did we travel back in time
to 1967?

Eating fresh, local, organic, homegrown &c. is a big trend right now.  I
don't know one person my age who would buy a Hungry Man fried chicken
dinner...unless they were drunk or stoned lol
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jul 18 21:14:15 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:14:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical
	decisions	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbUCnBjQaizJtJ_-LSMeNbPnz74CrYg09QhWukXHwpfRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
 <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
 <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbUCnBjQaizJtJ_-LSMeNbPnz74CrYg09QhWukXHwpfRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <010801d3000a$d065c5c0$71315140$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace

Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions like humans

 

>>? spike wrote;  Consider public restrooms: you
don't want to touch anything, so they supply those paper ass-gaskets.

 

 

>? featuring new practices such as wiping vaginal fluid all over a newborn ?Far better and easier than having them play in stockyard dirt/manure, and with animals of all kinds, including strange children (such as Spike and I were)?

 

 

BillW, I knew some children who were even stranger than either of us.  No exaggeration.

 

 

 

>>?We create a phony
video using actual porno actors, create script which allows the scoundrel to find out the (phony) identity of the passengers: "Oh Reverend Carbuncle, you are so hot!"  ?Set up a phony website with a megachurch somewhere, head pastor Rev. Fester N. Carbuncle, Choir Director Susie May Rottencrotch.  Now the trap is set.

 

 

>?Spike, does your mind never stop?

 

Not that I know of.  Come to think of it, how would I know if it did?  You would tell me, ja?

 

Now that I am on this stranger-than-fiction flight of fancy, waaaay stranger in this case, I will offer something for which we moderns can be thankful.

 

We start with a history lesson.

 

Back in the long time agos, names were simple: Peter, James, John, Hoerkheimer and so forth (read all about it in the old books.)  Eventually every little town was filled with them, so they invented last names.  Sometimes it was based on where the person was from, but often it was from what they did for a living.  There was Peter the Farmer and James the Carpenter and the guy who made horseshoes was John the Smith, and so on, and eventually they just dropped the the, and they kept the occupation as the family name, which is why we ended up with so many names that sound like jobs.  Back in the old days, jobs were pretty simple to describe.  The names had dignity.  Families were OK with taking the name, regardless of later occupations.  Follow me?  Good.

 

We live in an era of weaponized information.  Our own modern prophet George Orwell told us this would happen: political power is now a function of how one can communicate in private.  Privacy is power.  Loss of that privacy destroys political power.  Loss of that privacy destroys personal lives.  Consequently, privacy has value.  Bad guys will try to steal it, and make you pay to keep your secrets.

 

Result: new occupations where bad guys will try to hide cameras in self-driving cars, knowing that privacy-seekers rent them for some private space.  Then still newer occupations will come along trying to defeat those would steal our privacy, the information-era counterparts of the burglar and the locksmith.

 

So? what if? the Dark Ages had never happened?  What if an honest-hearted Pope got up in the balcony and just confessed: Priest-schmiest!  We really don?t have the power to consign you to hell.  Even if you deserve it, we still can?t do it.  I will read these scriptures to you in your language instead of this absurd Latin and show you.  We don?t have the power.  We are all equal.

 

The spell would have been broken, we never would have had the Dark Ages, we could have advanced to the science age and industrial revolution several hundred years sooner, the whole notion of creating family names based on occupation would have happened when we were already struggling with the modern problem of weaponized information, and think how awkward that might be.  You are at a party or social setting, you introduce yourself: Hi, I am Spike Phonypornovideomaker.  She: Hi, nice to meet you Mr. Phonypornovideomaker!  My name is Chastity Recordyouhumping.

 

Now, wouldn?t that be rather embarrassing?  We can be thankful the old time religion people were early adopters of writing, which gave them enormous power, which they abused as is the way of all humans with enormous power, resulting in the dark ages, resulting in modern dignified family names, such Smith, Farmer, Baker and so on.  

 

Be thankful.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jul 18 18:54:15 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:54:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Test
In-Reply-To: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMd8APwXKGYVVv8AzAXAU5g=1CbpG1QNQCQr79r3BboniJ-t-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNScyEqJKut4iQzE++kubBWO9n5m=X=Lmuts6veSwPkg=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Gina Miller <ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Please respond if you get this. Thanks!
>

Test passed.
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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 19 07:35:25 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:35:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
Message-ID: <a8b571157340b54f322e9aa27ed09fa7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Stathis Papaionnou wrote:

>Angular displacement of the body will have an effect on neurones, perhaps
>by stretching the cell membrane and hence altering the excitability
>threshold and the propagation of the action potential. An accurate model of
>the brain should therefore take this parameter into account. However, at
>some level of resolution the effect will be swamped by noise. So it would
>be wasted effort to model angular displacement to 10 decimal places when -
>again in order to be accurate - you would have to throw away 5 decimal
>places due to the thermal noise inherent in a biological system at body
>temperature.

Yes, thermal noise would cause the underlying wavefunction to decohere
into one definite state but not until *after* the continuous probability
function had preselected those possible states, finite or countably
infinite, and assigned various probability masses to them.

The moment that you admit that some mental states are more probable than
others, you open the door to allow infinity to influence your mind. You
can't have a normal distribution without infinity. Furthermore as a
psychiatrist, where would you draw the line between normal behaviors (the
observable correlates of mental states) and exceptional ones? One standard
deviation, two? 6 sigma?

> >Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out
> an
> >infinite non-repeating decimal.
>
> Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity and
> discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
> numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't think a
> computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack overflow
> error.


>A dog doesn't have much concept of infinity, but its brain is not that that
>dissimilar to yours and mine. If we push the point, I don't think any human
>can "really" grasp infinity and irrational numbers, even if if they can
>manipulate and utilise them as concepts, in the way a computer algebra
>system such as Wolfram Alpha can.

Can dog a be conditioned to salivate at a sound of any arbitray frequency
of sound within its range of perception including a bell or silent
whistle? If so, the dog's mind is recognizing a specific frequency out of
an uncountably infinite range of possible frequencies. So it is processing
infinity even if it is not doing it abstractly or even delibrately.

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 19 13:05:36 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:05:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
Message-ID: <c547905af3e07fc7164cefca27ed0c78.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

>?If
> space-time is discrete
?> then the ?
>Pythagorean theorem
?> is only a approximation that works pretty well as long as things don't
>get too small. But I don't see how the existence of the continuum is of any
>relevance to the question of a conscious AI. Neither a computer nor the
>human brain can count the number of points on a line, but both can use
>calculus to fine the exact area under a parabola; assuming of course that
>lines and parabolas actually exist and are not just useful fictions.

Good question. I am not at all certain that the continuum is necessary for
consciousness. I am exploring the possibility that it might be.


?>There are only 3 possibilities:
>
>1) Nothing exists outside the cosmological horizon.

Gakk. "Nothing" is a loaded term in modern cosmology. Define it please? Do
you mean "quantum-foam" nothing, flat spacetime, or mathematical nothing
i.e. empty set (no spacetime)? Do you mean finite bounded or finite
unbounded?

>2) A Finite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.

Again is flat space-time or quantum vacuum "stuff" in your opinion? Or are
you specifically talking about matter?

>3) A infinite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.

An infinite amount of flat spacetime could exist outside the cosmological
horizon but that would be incredulously unlikely. I mean come on: a finite
island of matter embedded in infinite space-time and we happen to be in
the exact center of it? Of course you could stand on the anthropic
principle but  that just flips the probability from 0 to 1.

Instead, I think it much more likely that a countably infinite amount of
matter and an uncountably infinite amount of space-time exist outside of
the cosmological horizon. The best reason that I could give is that matter
implies the existence of spacetime just like the integers imply the
existence of the continuum.

Another observation is that there being infinite matter means that it's
not at all surprising that we find ourselves in the middle of it. Every
point on an infinite line can make equal claim to being the center as any
other and they are all equally right.

>All 3 violate a cherished scientific principle and yet one of them must be
>true. If you assume #1 is true then the Earth occupies a special position,
>it is the center of a finite flat spacetime universe.

This is Bostrum's Simulation Hypothesis exactly. His clever probablistic
arguments not withstanding I find this scenarios to be highly unlikely.
The only empirical evidence that I have observed is how the LHC kept
malfunctioning until the Universe Developers could read up on the Standard
Model so they could write the patch to simulate the Higg's Boson. Needless
to say that is anecdotal evidence at best.

> If you assume #2 or
>#3 is true then it's OK for a scienctific theory to conjure up things that
>are in neither your past nor your future causal lightcone. And with #3 you
>must also conjure up physical infinity even though there is no evidence
>there are a infinite number of any physical object.

Much of reality, finite or not, lies outside your lightcone. Causality
does not bound or define reality. All it does is bound your knowledge and
define your observations of that reality. Witness (although you actually
can't) violation of Bell's inequality. That occurs outside your lightcone
and you can't ever observe it happening. But you can infer its existence
through the evidence it leaves behind.

Similarly so does the evolution of your own wavefunction. All you see is
the decohered or collapsed state of that wavefunction. You can't ever
directly observe the superposition of your infinite alternate histories
and futures.

You are only partially aware of the singular present and the approximate
imprint of your past upon you. The superposition and decoherence of your
wavefunction occurs FTL which is outside your lightcone. I can think of no
other reason for not being able to directly observe it.

>> Secondly, given the set of all 10^81 atoms that you mention, there are
>> ? ?
>> 2^10^81 possible subsets of those atoms.
>
?>Are there? I would argue (as a devil's advocate) that if finding all
>2^10^81
>subsets is beyond the computational capacity of the observable universe
>(and whatever the unobservable universe can do is of no help whatsoever)
>then saying all those subsets exist has no meaning. And besides, 2^10^81 is
>no closer to being infinite than the number two is.

True, but one is allowed to take finite subsets of an infinite set. A
finite subset infers a lower bound on the cardinality of set that it is
sampled from but not an upper bound. If you observe 5 atoms, you know *at
least* 5 atoms exist but you don't know if the total number of atoms is
finite or infinite.

> >
>> ?> ?
>>> If ?perfect circles don't exist is there anything about them to
>>> understand?
>>
>> Yes. How did something that does not exist become so fundamental in
>> describing so much of what we can see and observe?
>
?>The human mind is not infinitely powerful so in dealing with the
>staggering complexity of the world approximations are needed. The idea that
>the planets moved in perfect circles around the sun worked pretty well but
>Kepler showed that a more complex mathematical curve, the ellipse, worked
>better. And then Einstein showed that even a ellipse wasn't quite right,
>but to understand how and why Einstein said the planets move high school
>geometry is not enough, you need 4 dimensional Tensor calculus and
>hyperbolic spacetime. And even Einstein wasn't quite right because he
>didn't take quantum mechanics into account. So when a child asks you how
>planets move it's best to just say "in a circle".

But if the Lorentz transformation is correct that implies that for every
elliptical orbit there exists at least one inertial reference frame in
which the orbit *is* circular. In fact, according my BOTECs, the velocity
along an eliptical orbit's major axis at which the orbit appears circular
is simply the "rest eccentricity" of the orbit times the speed of light.
In symbols, v=E*c. In other words a single orbit can have infinite number
of possible eccentricities depending on which of an infinite number of
reference frames you measure it from.
 ?
>> Without perfect
>> ? ?
>> circles, you can't have complex numbers. And without complex numbers you
>> ? ?
>> can't have probability amplitudes
>
?>And without a brain made of atoms that obey the laws of physics "you"
>can't have ?
>probability amplitudes
?>, in fact you can't even have you.?

But if the laws of physics are only useful fictions created by the mind
with no physical reality than how do the physically real atoms of my brain
know them well enough to obey them?

But if instead they are writ large upon the universe, then how do they get
inside our heads in mathematical form?

Do the laws of physics abide mathematically within some realm of
abstraction from which only information freely flows to bind itself to
matter and give that matter measurable properties? Do our minds come from
that same abstract realm? Is my mind a mathematical property of my brain
just as the laws of physics are mathematical properties of the universe?

Or are we all unwitting gods discovering the universe even as we create it?

Stuart LaForge






From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jul 19 13:10:07 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 06:10:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
 like humans
Message-ID: <285519d39eb3bad6baf3c6b351897f0c.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:

>My worry is that everyone has different ethical systems.
>I'm not sure that I would buy a 'Jesus-freak' car that says "I'm very
>sorry Bill, but my ethics module says that in this situation saving
>your life is not the most efficient solution".

Well if the moral philosophers have any say, as long you keep your weight
under control and stay off the trolley tracks, you should be just fine.
;-)

Stuart LaForge




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 13:13:34 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:13:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions
	like humans
In-Reply-To: <010801d3000a$d065c5c0$71315140$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
 <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
 <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbUCnBjQaizJtJ_-LSMeNbPnz74CrYg09QhWukXHwpfRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010801d3000a$d065c5c0$71315140$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa08v=tUz_yX_OqtX65q0PAmdhfXFW_d-LPHaAG4Kx0fg@mail.gmail.com>

 spike wrote: Back in the old days, jobs were pretty simple to describe.
The names had dignity.  Families were OK with taking the name, regardless
of later occupations.  Follow me?  Good.

Now Spike, if you want some fun with names, consider German names.
Swartzkopf, for example, translates as 'black head'.  Helmut Kohl died
recently:  Kohl = cabbage.  For a bit stranger, Kohlschreiber - cabbage
writer.  Dignity?

bill w

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 4:14 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical
> decisions like humans
>
>
>
> >>? spike wrote;  Consider public restrooms: you
> don't want to touch anything, so they supply those *paper ass-gaskets.*
>
>
>
>
>
> >? featuring new practices such as wiping vaginal fluid all over a
> newborn ?Far better and easier than having them play in stockyard
> dirt/manure, and with animals of all kinds, including strange children
> (such as Spike and I were)?
>
>
>
>
>
> BillW, I knew some children who were even stranger than either of us.  No
> exaggeration.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?We create a phony
> video using actual porno actors, create script which allows the scoundrel
> to find out the (phony) identity of the passengers: "Oh Reverend Carbuncle,
> you are so hot!"  ?Set up a phony website with a megachurch somewhere, head
> pastor Rev. Fester N. Carbuncle, Choir Director Susie May Rottencrotch.
> Now the trap is set.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Spike, does your mind never stop?
>
>
>
> Not that I know of.  Come to think of it, how would I know if it did?  You
> would tell me, ja?
>
>
>
> Now that I am on this stranger-than-fiction flight of fancy, waaaay
> stranger in this case, I will offer something for which we moderns can be
> thankful.
>
>
>
> We start with a history lesson.
>
>
>
> Back in the long time agos, names were simple: Peter, James, John,
> Hoerkheimer and so forth (read all about it in the old books.)  Eventually
> every little town was filled with them, so they invented last names.
> Sometimes it was based on where the person was from, but often it was from
> what they did for a living.  There was Peter the Farmer and James the
> Carpenter and the guy who made horseshoes was John the Smith, and so on,
> and eventually they just dropped the the, and they kept the occupation as
> the family name, which is why we ended up with so many names that sound
> like jobs.  Back in the old days, jobs were pretty simple to describe.  The
> names had dignity.  Families were OK with taking the name, regardless of
> later occupations.  Follow me?  Good.
>
>
>
> We live in an era of weaponized information.  Our own modern prophet
> George Orwell told us this would happen: political power is now a function
> of how one can communicate in private.  Privacy is power.  Loss of that
> privacy destroys political power.  Loss of that privacy destroys personal
> lives.  Consequently, privacy has value.  Bad guys will try to steal it,
> and make you pay to keep your secrets.
>
>
>
> Result: new occupations where bad guys will try to hide cameras in
> self-driving cars, knowing that privacy-seekers rent them for some private
> space.  Then still newer occupations will come along trying to defeat those
> would steal our privacy, the information-era counterparts of the burglar
> and the locksmith.
>
>
>
> So? what if? the Dark Ages had never happened?  What if an honest-hearted
> Pope got up in the balcony and just confessed: Priest-schmiest!  We really
> don?t have the power to consign you to hell.  Even if you deserve it, we
> still can?t do it.  I will read these scriptures to you in your language
> instead of this absurd Latin and show you.  We don?t have the power.  We
> are all equal.
>
>
>
> The spell would have been broken, we never would have had the Dark Ages,
> we could have advanced to the science age and industrial revolution several
> hundred years sooner, the whole notion of creating family names based on
> occupation would have happened when we were already struggling with the
> modern problem of weaponized information, and think how awkward that might
> be.  You are at a party or social setting, you introduce yourself: Hi, I am
> Spike Phonypornovideomaker.  She: Hi, nice to meet you Mr.
> Phonypornovideomaker!  My name is Chastity Recordyouhumping.
>
>
>
> Now, wouldn?t that be rather embarrassing?  We can be thankful the old
> time religion people were early adopters of writing, which gave them
> enormous power, which they abused as is the way of all humans with enormous
> power, resulting in the dark ages, resulting in modern dignified family
> names, such Smith, Farmer, Baker and so on.
>
>
>
> Be thankful.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 13:42:48 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:42:48 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <a8b571157340b54f322e9aa27ed09fa7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <a8b571157340b54f322e9aa27ed09fa7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypW5GjFELy67o4wcyccDYjfYg6Zgh6w_Tg=PJwU_K+xcKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 at 6:54 pm, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>
> >Angular displacement of the body will have an effect on neurones, perhaps
> >by stretching the cell membrane and hence altering the excitability
> >threshold and the propagation of the action potential. An accurate model
> of
> >the brain should therefore take this parameter into account. However, at
> >some level of resolution the effect will be swamped by noise. So it would
> >be wasted effort to model angular displacement to 10 decimal places when -
> >again in order to be accurate - you would have to throw away 5 decimal
> >places due to the thermal noise inherent in a biological system at body
> >temperature.
>
> Yes, thermal noise would cause the underlying wavefunction to decohere
> into one definite state but not until *after* the continuous probability
> function had preselected those possible states, finite or countably
> infinite, and assigned various probability masses to them.


The continuous distribution (if that's what it fundamentally is) becomes
effectively discrete once the error bars are taken into account.

The moment that you admit that some mental states are more probable than
> others, you open the door to allow infinity to influence your mind. You
> can't have a normal distribution without infinity. Furthermore as a
> psychiatrist, where would you draw the line between normal behaviors (the
> observable correlates of mental states) and exceptional ones? One standard
> deviation, two? 6 sigma?


Every distribution, normal or otherwise, of any parameter ever considered
has been effectively discrete, since every measuring instrument gives a
discrete result. There are not usually arbitrary cutoffs in abnormal
psychology but if there were that would also be discrete: 3.0 sigma on some
test result, say.

> >Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out
> > an
> > >infinite non-repeating decimal.
> >
> > Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity
> and
> > discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
> > numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't think
> a
> > computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack
> overflow
> > error.
>
>
> >A dog doesn't have much concept of infinity, but its brain is not that
> that
> >dissimilar to yours and mine. If we push the point, I don't think any
> human
> >can "really" grasp infinity and irrational numbers, even if if they can
> >manipulate and utilise them as concepts, in the way a computer algebra
> >system such as Wolfram Alpha can.
>
> Can dog a be conditioned to salivate at a sound of any arbitray frequency
> of sound within its range of perception including a bell or silent
> whistle? If so, the dog's mind is recognizing a specific frequency out of
> an uncountably infinite range of possible frequencies. So it is processing
> infinity even if it is not doing it abstractly or even delibrately.


The dog would not be able to tell if the tone were digitally generated
(with sufficient fidelity) or an analogue tone.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jul 19 14:20:00 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 07:20:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical
	decisions	like humans
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa08v=tUz_yX_OqtX65q0PAmdhfXFW_d-LPHaAG4Kx0fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi+rn=0zGBrCp-qyZo5fiseywO7+vDNRFTP-YfHFDa6sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYbHdSP3geQ+orhkpSXNdLQ+Bf2v_ft5RZuAwb_oGv_Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgtHjQpEErrCD94Dm4+2T6ykxxN+3Jn7nT7zXtfss-yRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZZmmNOuBd46tR_P5cptxSHrs2C474Gppsmr8rV_8514A@mail.gmail.com>
 <3CEE9763-8759-4D40-86A5-1F5F67591894@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armg9LiiqGy6KfKbUmD6PQZRKtJ2WaYsm5MtEdgeLNcLCgQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005501d2ffd5$572b2d10$05818730$@att.net>
 <006c01d2ffdc$3fe07b90$bfa172b0$@att.net>
 <000901d2ffe0$b7593640$260ba2c0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbUCnBjQaizJtJ_-LSMeNbPnz74CrYg09QhWukXHwpfRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <010801d3000a$d065c5c0$71315140$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEa08v=tUz_yX_OqtX65q0PAmdhfXFW_d-LPHaAG4Kx0fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901d3009a$1c22c280$54684780$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 6:14 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Self-driving cars to make moral and ethical decisions like humans

 

 spike wrote: Back in the old days, jobs were pretty simple to describe.  The names had dignity.  Families were OK with taking the name, regardless of later occupations.  Follow me?  Good.

 

Now Spike, if you want some fun with names, consider German names.  Swartzkopf, for example, translates as 'black head'.  Helmut Kohl died recently:  Kohl = cabbage.  For a bit stranger, Kohlschreiber - cabbage writer.  Dignity?

 

bill w

 

 

Billw, a German guy figured out relativity.  Cabbagewriter lacks dignity relative to Baker, Smith and Carpenter, but it comes in well ahead of Recordyouhumping and Phonypornomaker.  It?s relative.  Then you know it is the hip thing to keep both parents? names, with a hyphen.  Either way you stack these two, you can see the other kids giving them a bunch of crap at roll call and at graduation ceremony the audience will snicker and ridicule.

 

The Dark Ages saved us from that.

 

spike

 

 

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 15:30:34 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 08:30:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Capitalism Saved the Bees?
Message-ID: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>

http://reason.com/archives/2017/07/19/how-capitalism-saved-the-bees

Crisis solved? Or crisis overstated? It's interesting that the article mentions there have been earlier episodes of CCD. Spike? 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 16:02:43 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:02:43 +0200
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Terasem=E2=80=99s_12th_Annual_Workshop_On_Geoethi?=
	=?utf-8?q?cal_Nanotechnology=2C_tomorrow_in_Second_Life?=
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfitPRjLLPSXuBuH5Y+VHwdHU=3UJ7YNTNxcC5cBme4bg@mail.gmail.com>

TOMORROW at the Terasem workshop in Second Life: David Brin, Yalda
Mousavinia, David Orban, Martine Rothblatt. You are invited!
Full program and access info at:

https://turingchurch.net/terasems-12th-annual-workshop-on-geoethical-nanotechnology-july-20-second-life-d776cb1f98a5


From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 17:55:47 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:55:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How Capitalism Saved the Bees?
In-Reply-To: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
References: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgnMcax2GijUmcrVK7=uOgm7Z73nQaVmeOP9LYA_5goSg@mail.gmail.com>

On 19 July 2017 at 16:30, Dan TheBookMan  wrote:
> http://reason.com/archives/2017/07/19/how-capitalism-saved-the-bees
>
> Crisis solved? Or crisis overstated? It's interesting that the article
> mentions there have been earlier episodes of CCD. Spike?
>

Well, you could say capitalism caused the bee collapse in the first
place by spraying insecticides and fungicides around indiscriminately.

The overall bee colony collapse losses haven't changed much. The
beekeepers are breeding more bees to make up the losses. Europe has
banned neonics, so you would expect bee losses to reduce over there.
Even without bans all the bad publicity is probably making farmers a
lot more careful about where and when they spray crops.

So there is hope that a combination of tactics can help the bees thrive.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 18:28:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:28:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypW5GjFELy67o4wcyccDYjfYg6Zgh6w_Tg=PJwU_K+xcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a8b571157340b54f322e9aa27ed09fa7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAH=2ypW5GjFELy67o4wcyccDYjfYg6Zgh6w_Tg=PJwU_K+xcKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb7f+t1Jj-+x4U7SDu81K1xxcipEP9grFuW3r0_DOPhkA@mail.gmail.com>

stathis or stuart wrote:

Furthermore as a psychiatrist, where would you draw the line between normal
behaviors (the observable correlates of mental states) and exceptional
ones? One standard
deviation, two? 6 sigma?
------------

There IS no line to be drawn.  You are talking about qualitative
measurements, not quantitative.  OK, there are a few objective tests, such
as the MMPI, where you can quantify, but that would never be used as the
only diagnostic bit.

The only real question when "Do you put a diagnostic label on this person?"
arises, is: are their behaviors and/or thoughts
significantly interfering with their daily lives, or impacting society,
their jobs, or family?"

It's like asking 'How smart is smart?  IQ 120, 140, 160?  Not use the IQ
tests at all?  Or ....?'

bill w  (who is glad to answer any psychiatric or psychological question
put to him - if he can)

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 at 6:54 pm, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
>> Stathis Papaionnou wrote:
>>
>> >Angular displacement of the body will have an effect on neurones, perhaps
>> >by stretching the cell membrane and hence altering the excitability
>> >threshold and the propagation of the action potential. An accurate model
>> of
>> >the brain should therefore take this parameter into account. However, at
>> >some level of resolution the effect will be swamped by noise. So it would
>> >be wasted effort to model angular displacement to 10 decimal places when
>> -
>> >again in order to be accurate - you would have to throw away 5 decimal
>> >places due to the thermal noise inherent in a biological system at body
>> >temperature.
>>
>> Yes, thermal noise would cause the underlying wavefunction to decohere
>> into one definite state but not until *after* the continuous probability
>> function had preselected those possible states, finite or countably
>> infinite, and assigned various probability masses to them.
>
>
> The continuous distribution (if that's what it fundamentally is) becomes
> effectively discrete once the error bars are taken into account.
>
> The moment that you admit that some mental states are more probable than
>> others, you open the door to allow infinity to influence your mind. You
>> can't have a normal distribution without infinity. Furthermore as a
>> psychiatrist, where would you draw the line between normal behaviors (the
>> observable correlates of mental states) and exceptional ones? One standard
>> deviation, two? 6 sigma?
>
>
> Every distribution, normal or otherwise, of any parameter ever considered
> has been effectively discrete, since every measuring instrument gives a
> discrete result. There are not usually arbitrary cutoffs in abnormal
> psychology but if there were that would also be discrete: 3.0 sigma on some
> test result, say.
>
> > >Human understanding of irrational numbers does not depend on writing out
>> > an
>> > >infinite non-repeating decimal.
>> >
>> > Yes. We have the mental capacity to mathematically manipulate infinity
>> and
>> > discern bona fide truths about infinity without resorting to infinite
>> > numbers of decimals or infinite memory. On the other hand, I don't
>> think a
>> > computer has any concept of infinity distinguishable from a stack
>> overflow
>> > error.
>>
>>
>> >A dog doesn't have much concept of infinity, but its brain is not that
>> that
>> >dissimilar to yours and mine. If we push the point, I don't think any
>> human
>> >can "really" grasp infinity and irrational numbers, even if if they can
>> >manipulate and utilise them as concepts, in the way a computer algebra
>> >system such as Wolfram Alpha can.
>>
>> Can dog a be conditioned to salivate at a sound of any arbitray frequency
>> of sound within its range of perception including a bell or silent
>> whistle? If so, the dog's mind is recognizing a specific frequency out of
>> an uncountably infinite range of possible frequencies. So it is processing
>> infinity even if it is not doing it abstractly or even delibrately.
>
>
> The dog would not be able to tell if the tone were digitally generated
> (with sufficient fidelity) or an analogue tone.
>
>> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 23:34:03 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 19:34:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Simulating the brain
In-Reply-To: <c547905af3e07fc7164cefca27ed0c78.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <c547905af3e07fc7164cefca27ed0c78.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1dCSyZApq2dQ1TJhQGzjiR4AkqS1yr9mmB0kyPf9wazw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?>
>> ?>?
>> There are only 3 possibilities:
>> >
>> ?>?
>> 1) Nothing exists outside the cosmological horizon.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Gakk. "Nothing" is a loaded term in modern cosmology. Define it please?


Infinite unbounded homogeneity
?.?


>
>> ?> ?
>> 2) A Finite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Again is flat space-time or quantum vacuum "stuff" in your opinion?


Yes and there are 2 possibilities, you can only stuff a finite number of Planck
volume cubes (a Planck length cubed) into the universe or there is room for
a infinite number of such cubes. It's got to be one or the other but I
don't see how I can ever know which possibility is true.


>
>> ?> ?
>> 3) A infinite amount of stuff exists outside the cosmological horizon.
>
>
> ?> ?
> An infinite amount of flat spacetime could exist outside the cosmological
> horizon but that would be incredulously unlikely. I mean come on: a finite
> island of matter embedded in infinite space-time and we happen to be in
> the exact center of it?


?If
spacetime
? ?is infinite it has no center, if
spacetime
? is finite and flat and bounded then it does.

?> ?
> Instead, I think it much more likely that a countably infinite amount of
> matter and an uncountably infinite amount of space-time exist outside of
> the cosmological horizon.


?That would be my hunch too but I think it's useful to sometimes put theory
asides and remind ourselves what our largest telescopes actually observe;
they observe a boundary and they observe that we are the same distance from
that boundary regardless of what direction the telescope is pointed.


> ?> ?
> Much of reality, finite or not, lies outside your lightcone.


?There might be a infinite number of stars that are more distant from me
than 13.8 billion light years, or there might be none at all, given the
fact that the universe is not only expanding it is accelerating there is no
way I can ever know. ?



> ?>
>> ?>?
>> The human mind is not infinitely powerful so in dealing with the
>> ?
>> staggering complexity of the world
>> ?a?
>> pproximations are needed. The idea that
>> ?
>> the planets moved in perfect circles around the sun worked pretty well but
>> ?
>> Kepler showed that a more complex
>> ?m?
>> athematical curve, the ellipse, worked
>> ?
>> better. And then Einstein showed that even a ellipse wasn't quite right,
>> but to understand how and why Einstein said the planets move high school
>> ?
>> geometry is not enough, you need 4 dimensional Tensor calculus and
>> ?
>> hyperbolic spacetime. And even Einstein wasn't quite right because he
>> didn't take quantum mechanics into account. So when a child asks you how
>> ?
>> planets move it's best to just say "in a circle".
>
>

?> ?
> But if the Lorentz transformation is correct that implies that for every
> ?
> elliptical orbit there exists at least one inertial reference frame in
> ?
> which the orbit *is* circular.


Lorentz transform
?s only apply for things
at constant velocity relative to each other
?, but p
lanets in ?orbit around the sun are undergoing constant acceleration and
thus are not in a
inertial reference frame
?.?

?When things accelerate ?Special Relativity isn't good enough, you've got
to go to General Relativity.



> ?>> ?
>> without a brain made of atoms that obey the laws of physics "you"
>> ?
>> can't have ?probability amplitudes
>> ?
>> , in fact you can't even have you.?
>
>
> ?> ?
> But if the laws of physics are only useful fictions
> ?
> created by the mind

with no physical reality than how do the physically real atoms of my brain
> know them well enough to obey them?
>

The laws of physics are
?
certainly
?not?
?
useful fictions, but something human beings
?have ?
call
?ed?
?  "
probability amplitudes
?"? for the last few decades might be. Or maybe not.

? John K Clark?



>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jul 19 16:25:05 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 12:25:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Capitalism Saved the Bees?
In-Reply-To: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
References: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dwcaVg49FyePiJ_Z7U6VhZFdrvipXm17CyfCpuo25csQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> http://reason.com/archives/2017/07/19/how-capitalism-saved-the-bees
>
> Crisis solved? Or crisis overstated? It's interesting that the article
> mentions there have been earlier episodes of CCD.
>

That's a pretty good article*. They didn't say there were earlier episodes
of CCD, just that there have been periodic causes of colony losses.

Yes, the problem has been overstated; fear sells. Remember the killer bee
scare? When CCD first appeared we didn't know whether we'd be able to
overcome it. It's been tough on beekeepers, who have never had it too easy
because the margins are thin and the challenges are numerous and constantly
changing.

-Dave

* one exception: "beekeepers can produce their own queens by feeding royal
jelly to larvae". No, beekeepers don't make queens by feeding royal jelly
to larvae. Workers make queens by constructing larger queen cells and
feeding those larvae *only* royal jelly. (All larvae get royal jelly at
first.) Beekeepers make queens by encouraging the workers to make queen
cells and moving them to unqueened hives before they hatch.
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jul 20 06:12:44 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:12:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Capitalism Saved the Bees?
In-Reply-To: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
References: <E24D4BE7-4186-41D5-8460-FA355E28F564@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <018001d3011f$34ac7e10$9e057a30$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 8:31 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] How Capitalism Saved the Bees?

 

http://reason.com/archives/2017/07/19/how-capitalism-saved-the-bees

>?Crisis solved? Or crisis overstated? It's interesting that the article mentions there have been earlier episodes of CCD. Spike? 

Regards, Dan

 

 

 

Dan, beware of simple answers to a crazy complex situation.  This article wishes to measure bee populations by the number of hives, which is growing, even if bee populations are dwindling.  The complication is that any estimate of the health of hives is mostly guesswork.  How can you tell if a hive is healthy without opening it?  I know how to tell if you let me put on my bee suit and open it up.  Local beekeepers might take a dim view of my doing that.

 

As I drive down Interstate 5 in California?s central valley, I am struck by two things: how many hives there are and how few bees I see around them.  

 

Times have changed a lot since my own misspent youth.  In those days the grove guy and the bee guy were great friends: they made each other rich.  Well not really.  They supplied each other?s crops.  But they didn?t pay each other.  Then in the late 1970s, we got a huge varroa mite infection, and several other new diseases.  Result: over time, the grove guy needs the bees more than the bees need the fruit trees, so the grove guy started paying more and more to rent the hives.  

 

In our times of low interest rates, it makes great sense to borrow money, built supers, split your colonies as often as possible.  Result: many hives, bees living on the edge of starvation.  They put so many hives out there that there isn?t enough pollen to feed them.  So? the bee guy feeds his livestock with corn syrup.  In the old days, they fed them sugar water, but cane sugar is expensive, so? the bees get corn syrup.  Do we know everything that is in that corn syrup?  No we don?t.  It?s worse than that: a lot of stuff in there is in such small traces, we can?t even find out.

 

The grove guy rents all these hives, but not being a beekeeper generally, he probably doesn?t mess with the hives.  So he doesn?t really know what he is paying for. 

 

Corn doesn?t need bees, but it needs to keep other pests away, so the pesticides used on corn doesn?t care about bee protection: there aren?t any around.  But if the corn pesticides are bee hazards and it somehow gets in the corn syrup and the bee man feeds his starving bees with that, it might weaken the hives and cause them to be more susceptible to varroa mites and other diseases.

 

The hell of it is: we still don?t know.  The neonicotinoids might be contributing to CCD, but it is doubtful that it is the only problem.  We get political pressure to ban them, some states do, and afterwards it still isn?t clear if it is helping or if so, by how much.

 

My opinion on this is that there are more hives, probably fewer bees, and I have long been suspicious of that corn syrup.

 

spike 

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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 20 08:08:02 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:08:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Bitcoin is not Right or Left: Bitcoin is a third way
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeYgNENvYi+=2FFtv1GdH97SM5t2KSPHj_zuhMUsmhMRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bitcoin is not Right or Left: Bitcoin is a third way

Motherboard writer Louise Matsakis covers the politics of Bitcoin in a
short article and a podcast titled ?What is bitcoin really for?? I was
interviewed in the podcast, and I have strong opinions on the politics
of Bitcoin....

https://cryptoinsider.com/bitcoin-not-right-left-bitcoin-third-way/



From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jul 20 12:09:54 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:09:54 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Telescope design promises to revolutionize amateur
	astronomy
Message-ID: <CAL_armhg2_twPCGUB8+0dAyYmX+xY0b8TQHKnp=kb=6z0VQpgQ@mail.gmail.com>

July 20, 2017

The SETI Institute and French startup Unistellar announced a
partnership today to commercialize a new telescope that promises to
deliver an unparalleled view of the cosmos to amateur astronomers, and
provide the opportunity to contribute directly to cutting-edge
science.

<https://phys.org/news/2017-07-telescope-revolutionize-amateur-astronomy.html>

Quote:
"Classical high-end telescopes are wonderful tools for observing the
four main planets. But they are generally disappointing for viewing
fainter and more distant objects, which remain inaccessible to amateur
astronomers," said Laurent Marfisi, Unistellar CEO. "Our telescope
will revolutionize amateur astronomy by allowing people to see in real
time, celestial objects that until now have only been available as
images in books or online. Our compact 4.5-inch telescope allows
observers to see objects fainter than Pluto and achieve sensitivity
equivalent to a one-meter telescope!"

A prototype of the Unistellar telescope has been delivered to the SETI
Institute for testing and development of the Campaign Mode data
network. Amateur astronomers will have a chance to help fund further
development of the device by purchasing it for less than $1000 in a
crowdfunding campaign set to launch in the Fall of 2017.
-----------


There is a video at the link that demonstrates the image
intensification feature.


BillK


From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jul 20 18:28:53 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 11:28:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Jordin Kare
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7h5GUyg0u1_Vs4=QN1J4GNSVO+yc7XFmv2msY6MSXKGA@mail.gmail.com>

Some of you know or know of Jordin Kare.

On Wed, Jul 19, 2017, at 10:08 PM,  Henry Vanderbilt
<hvanderbilt at mindspring.com> wrote:

> I have just gotten word from a friend who was working for him that
> Jordin Kare has died.  Heart failure.

Sigh.  Last time I saw Jordin was at WesterCon a year ago in Portland.

Last time he posted on this group was Jan 17.

My last email from him was March 20.

Rand is right that Jordin was one of the giants.  Lots of people
recognized that beamed energy is the way to get more exhaust
velocity/lower mass ratio than chemicals can provide.  Jordin worked
out the details.  He was an inspiration in work on moving vast mass to
high orbits for power satellites.

I spent too little time with him, but he was a busy guy.

Younger than me by 14 years, but no doubt he got more done.

Keith

PS.  It's always unnerving when people much younger than you die.  I
think many of you knew Hugh Daniel.  He was 20 years younger than I
was at the time when he died of congestive heart failure.


From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Thu Jul 20 23:24:57 2017
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:24:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bostrom on PBS
Message-ID: <CAMdUVLxo=jzS6yVCu5beFGD2RmO08of6iMjt-MZjBSn5F5cL+A@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

Nick Bostrom was featured prominently in a story on today's PBS
Newshour on "the need to invest in managing the evolution of
artificial intelligence." Currently, the transcript is available, but
I suspect the video will be available shortly as well.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sense/invest-future-humanity-swedish-philosopher-nick-bostrom-explains/

-Henry


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 13:36:03 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 15:36:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?VIDEO=3A_Terasem=E2=80=99s_12th_Annual_Workshop_O?=
	=?utf-8?q?n_Geoethical_Nanotechnology=2C_Second_Life=2C_July_20=2C?=
	=?utf-8?q?_2017?=
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydX-0R+ooaUwAXAAGp1aE3e1ee9b2=SDkL6rZqGeFQ=vQ@mail.gmail.com>

VIDEO: Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology,
Second Life, July 20, 2017

Terasem?s 12th Annual Workshop On Geoethical Nanotechnology took place
as usual on July 20 2017 in the Terasem sim, Second Life, with great
talks by David Brin, Yalda Mousavinia, David Orban, and Martine
Rothblatt. Watch the full video below...
https://turingchurch.net/video-terasems-12th-annual-workshop-on-geoethical-nanotechnology-second-life-july-20-2017-5c3a9dec37ed



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 18:19:00 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 19:19:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Can humans work with AI?
Message-ID: <CAL_armieVtH2KproWjaCcJyUvjakrKvno5KyN-LzQ-tJJjYpAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Probably not - humans interfere too much!  :)

<http://behavioralscientist.org/dont-touch-computer/>

Quotes:

Don?t Touch the Computer
By Jason Collins     July 13, 2017

As Cowen notes, the natural evolution of the human-machine
relationship is from a machine that doesn?t add much, to a machine
that benefits from human help, to a machine that occasionally needs a
tiny bit of guidance, to a machine that we should leave alone.

There are some great failures by grandmasters in freestyle chess
tournaments. Their confidence leads them to interfere too often with
the superior computer, whereas the best freestyle chess players will
only overrule their machine a handful of times a game. If you can find
a humble but skilled human, there could be room for success.

Absent limiting human intervention to the right level, the pattern we
will see is not humans and machines working together for enhanced
decision making, but machines slowly replacing humans decision by
decision. Algorithms will often be substitutes, not complements, with
humans left to the (at the moment, many) places where the algorithms
can?t go yet.

A friend of mine often reminds me of an old joke about automation on
airliners. The ideal team is a pilot and a dog. The pilot?s job is to
feed the dog. The dog?s job is to bite the pilot if the pilot tries to
touch anything. While we may still be some way away from this scenario
in the world of aviation, in some domains we?re already there.
---------


BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 18:39:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:39:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Can humans work with AI?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armieVtH2KproWjaCcJyUvjakrKvno5KyN-LzQ-tJJjYpAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armieVtH2KproWjaCcJyUvjakrKvno5KyN-LzQ-tJJjYpAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbV2qJ61zfAQsButdomnOHH9xBwOzHN=RUsR9w1Dq54OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 1:19 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Probably not - humans interfere too much!  :)
>
> <http://behavioralscientist.org/dont-touch-computer/>
>
> Quotes:
>
> Don?t Touch the Computer
> By Jason Collins     July 13, 2017
>
> As Cowen notes, the natural evolution of the human-machine
> relationship is from a machine that doesn?t add much, to a machine
> that benefits from human help, to a machine that occasionally needs a
> tiny bit of guidance, to a machine that we should leave alone.
>
> There are some great failures by grandmasters in freestyle chess
> tournaments. Their confidence leads them to interfere too often with
> the superior computer, whereas the best freestyle chess players will
> only overrule their machine a handful of times a game. If you can find
> a humble but skilled human, there could be room for success.
>
> Absent limiting human intervention to the right level, the pattern we
> will see is not humans and machines working together for enhanced
> decision making, but machines slowly replacing humans decision by
> decision. Algorithms will often be substitutes, not complements, with
> humans left to the (at the moment, many) places where the algorithms
> can?t go yet.
>
> A friend of mine often reminds me of an old joke about automation on
> airliners. The ideal team is a pilot and a dog. The pilot?s job is to
> feed the dog. The dog?s job is to bite the pilot if the pilot tries to
> touch anything. While we may still be some way away from this scenario
> in the world of aviation, in some domains we?re already there.
> ---------
>
>
> BillK
> ?
>
?You are probably tired of hearing this from me, but if the shoe fits.....

We can change the software of computers, and I assume that there will never
be perfection, so that is ongoing.

We can also change the software of people, by learning.  In some cases,
learning new things,and in others, unlearning what they know.  It is the
latter that is of interest here:  somehow we get programmed with all sorts
of illogical, irrational attitudes and sets and rules of thumb - some known
as cognitive errors - ?

?and everyone needs reprogramming to correct these, if possible.

Take a cocky, egotistic attitude:  it can lead to grievous errors, but it
can also lead to the kind of stubbornness that overcomes obstacles that no
one thought possible, through sheer effort - unwilling to fail.  This
illustrates how difficult and nuanced it will be.

I have no idea what kind of mess will be created by education when they get
rid of the idea that knowledge has to be instilled on a blank slate and
adopt the idea of reprogramming the malicious software we are carrying
around in our heads, but it will be entertaining.?

> ?
>
?bill w?


>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jul 21 18:10:31 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:10:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CubeCab to be interviewed on TMRO tomorrow
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ5kWQM6hDo8dN1b7Ha06kP9hef8egwNHZq=f5unCkekg@mail.gmail.com>

Who: your friendly extended-neighborhood launch company, and TMRO - a
weekly broadcast show about space stuff

What: live broadcast interview about our Cab-3A launcher, our
customers, and so on

When: Saturday, 7/22, show starting 11 AM Pacific, CubeCab's interview
segment planned to start roughly 11:20

Where: https://www.tmro.tv/live/

Why: we think that more convenient and affordable space access,
letting many more people start doing things in space, is in line with
extropian principles

How: just hop on the site when it's time and watch; I wouldn't mind
feedback afterward (privately or on this list) if you think I did
anything really well or messed up somewhere


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 08:21:10 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 10:21:10 +0200
Subject: [ExI] CubeCab to be interviewed on TMRO tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ5kWQM6hDo8dN1b7Ha06kP9hef8egwNHZq=f5unCkekg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQ5kWQM6hDo8dN1b7Ha06kP9hef8egwNHZq=f5unCkekg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeG+QP0DzvHpLHx+TrOfwgkZ=0PV-rzRm5JUGQx52+YYw@mail.gmail.com>

Great, I look forward to listening to the show. 11am PT isn't very
convenient for me, do they also archive broadcasts for later
listening?

And yes, more convenient and affordable space access is very extropian.

G.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Who: your friendly extended-neighborhood launch company, and TMRO - a
> weekly broadcast show about space stuff
>
> What: live broadcast interview about our Cab-3A launcher, our
> customers, and so on
>
> When: Saturday, 7/22, show starting 11 AM Pacific, CubeCab's interview
> segment planned to start roughly 11:20
>
> Where: https://www.tmro.tv/live/
>
> Why: we think that more convenient and affordable space access,
> letting many more people start doing things in space, is in line with
> extropian principles
>
> How: just hop on the site when it's time and watch; I wouldn't mind
> feedback afterward (privately or on this list) if you think I did
> anything really well or messed up somewhere
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 13:54:58 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 14:54:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] New Nature ID app for Android and Apple
Message-ID: <CAL_armhZ6i=sJ_dvcdBsgfQqAV-MEc_cab48FKBJ2bJvVF7ALg@mail.gmail.com>

Identify Anything, Anywhere, Instantly (Well, Almost) With the Newest
iNaturalist Release
by Eric Simons on July 17, 2017

<https://baynature.org/article/identify-anything-anywhere-instantly-well-almost-newest-inaturalist-release/>

Quote:
A new version of the California Academy of Sciences? iNaturalist app
uses artificial intelligence to offer immediate identifications for
photos of any kind of wildlife. You can observe anywhere and ask the
computer anything. I?ve been using it for a few weeks now and it seems
like it mostly works.
It is completely astonishing.

iNaturalist is now attempting plants, mammals, birds, insects,
spiders, slime molds ? how do you even begin to train a computer to do
that?

Out of 2.5 million quality observations, according to an explanation
iNaturalist co-director Scott Loarie posted to the iNaturalist web
site in June, there are 13,730 species that have been identified and
confirmed more than 20 times. That?s the database they started
building their computer vision from.
------------------

Get the app here:  <http://inaturalist.org/>


BillK



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 14:28:34 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 07:28:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Nature ID app for Android and Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhZ6i=sJ_dvcdBsgfQqAV-MEc_cab48FKBJ2bJvVF7ALg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhZ6i=sJ_dvcdBsgfQqAV-MEc_cab48FKBJ2bJvVF7ALg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C0C96990-D77F-4814-B202-018E4428EBB1@gmail.com>

On Jul 22, 2017, at 6:54 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Identify Anything, Anywhere, Instantly (Well, Almost) With the Newest
> iNaturalist Release
> by Eric Simons on July 17, 2017
> 
> <https://baynature.org/article/identify-anything-anywhere-instantly-well-almost-newest-inaturalist-release/>
> 
> Quote:
> A new version of the California Academy of Sciences? iNaturalist app
> uses artificial intelligence to offer immediate identifications for
> photos of any kind of wildlife. You can observe anywhere and ask the
> computer anything. I?ve been using it for a few weeks now and it seems
> like it mostly works.
> It is completely astonishing.
> 
> iNaturalist is now attempting plants, mammals, birds, insects,
> spiders, slime molds ? how do you even begin to train a computer to do
> that?
> 
> Out of 2.5 million quality observations, according to an explanation
> iNaturalist co-director Scott Loarie posted to the iNaturalist web
> site in June, there are 13,730 species that have been identified and
> confirmed more than 20 times. That?s the database they started
> building their computer vision from.
> ------------------
> 
> Get the app here:  <http://inaturalist.org/>

That sounds very useful for doing wildlife surveys.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 22 14:38:50 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 07:38:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] New Nature ID app for Android and Apple
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhZ6i=sJ_dvcdBsgfQqAV-MEc_cab48FKBJ2bJvVF7ALg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhZ6i=sJ_dvcdBsgfQqAV-MEc_cab48FKBJ2bJvVF7ALg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201d302f8$3cce3bd0$b66ab370$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: [ExI] New Nature ID app for Android and Apple

Identify Anything, Anywhere, Instantly (Well, Almost) With the Newest iNaturalist Release by Eric Simons on July 17, 2017


<https://baynature.org/article/identify-anything-anywhere-instantly-well-almost-newest-inaturalist-release/>


Quote:
A new version of the California Academy of Sciences? iNaturalist app uses artificial intelligence to offer immediate identifications for photos of any kind of wildlife. You can observe anywhere and ask the computer anything. I?ve been using it for a few weeks now and it seems like it mostly works.
It is completely astonishing.

iNaturalist is now attempting plants, mammals, birds, insects, spiders, slime molds ? how do you even begin to train a computer to do that?

Out of 2.5 million quality observations, according to an explanation iNaturalist co-director Scott Loarie posted to the iNaturalist web site in June, there are 13,730 species that have been identified and confirmed more than 20 times. That?s the database they started building their computer vision from.
------------------

Get the app here:  <http://inaturalist.org/>


BillK

_______________________________________________


Thanks BillK!  This is a dream.  Is this a cool time to be living or what?

spike




From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jul 22 15:51:59 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:51:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] CubeCab to be interviewed on TMRO tomorrow
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeG+QP0DzvHpLHx+TrOfwgkZ=0PV-rzRm5JUGQx52+YYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNQ5kWQM6hDo8dN1b7Ha06kP9hef8egwNHZq=f5unCkekg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeG+QP0DzvHpLHx+TrOfwgkZ=0PV-rzRm5JUGQx52+YYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSYvhGK0sSVYOLa1sg7NzffG4MpQmFZr_3fBBj_EGE+eg@mail.gmail.com>

They do indeed appear to host archives.

On Jul 22, 2017 1:24 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

Great, I look forward to listening to the show. 11am PT isn't very
convenient for me, do they also archive broadcasts for later
listening?

And yes, more convenient and affordable space access is very extropian.

G.

On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 8:10 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Who: your friendly extended-neighborhood launch company, and TMRO - a
> weekly broadcast show about space stuff
>
> What: live broadcast interview about our Cab-3A launcher, our
> customers, and so on
>
> When: Saturday, 7/22, show starting 11 AM Pacific, CubeCab's interview
> segment planned to start roughly 11:20
>
> Where: https://www.tmro.tv/live/
>
> Why: we think that more convenient and affordable space access,
> letting many more people start doing things in space, is in line with
> extropian principles
>
> How: just hop on the site when it's time and watch; I wouldn't mind
> feedback afterward (privately or on this list) if you think I did
> anything really well or messed up somewhere
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jul 24 17:17:01 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2017 13:17:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Robust topological quantum computing
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3TkdP0XmnSGwifHtOeod+2thUEF_ZVD66qE3Y88MxZbQ@mail.gmail.com>

In the July 21 2017 issue of the journal Science
? ?
Qing Lin He
?  ?
reports he was able to move
? ?
Majorana
? ?
quasiparticles in a
? ?
nanowire, their existence has been shown before but this is the first time
they could be moved around. Majorana quasiparticles
? ?
(sometimes called Anyons)
? ?
should obey something called
? ?
non-Abelian statistics, which just means
? ?
non-commutative. And that is
?a big deal?
 because something like that would be ideal for use
? ?
as the working material
? ?
in a Quantum Computer
? ?
because they would be far more resistant to quantum decoherence, the
biggest enemy to
?practical ?
quantum computing.

?
The amount of conductance a nanowire containing Anyons has comes in
discrete jumps and is a function of the
? ?
topological class
? ?
(the number of times the spacetime worldlines
? ?
of the Anyons cross over)
?,?
and
? ?
it's not easy to change the
? ?
topological class
? ?
of entangled Anyons
?,?
and that makes them resistant to quantum decoherence.
? ?
As a example you probably can't change the
? ?
topological class
? ?
of your shoelaces (nerd-speak for untie
? ?
your shoelaces) with just any old random bump, a much more intricate
maneuver would be necessary. Another way of looking at it is that each
Anyon is really only half a particle so a single Qbit of information is
stored in both
?,?
so for it to be scrambled both Anyons would have to be hit at the same
time, and they can be as far apart as you like. The
? ?
next
? ?
step is to get the Anyons to actually perform a calculation and so far none
has even been able to add 1+1, however once that goal has been reached I
think it would be possible to scale up to something far larger much more
quickly than other approaches.

This certainly isn't the only approach to Quantum Computing, instead of
Anyons companies like IBM, and Google and D-wave are using other things
like ions and photons and superconducting junctions, and unlike Anyons they
have already been able to perform a few simple calculations. Only Microsoft
is betting entirely on the more radical topological approach, time will
tell which method is better but it would be ironic if a company with a
reputation for being plodding ends up being the most innovative of all. At
the very least you've got to give the
?m?
credit for taking the coolest path, and it might be the most lucrative too,

? ?
John K Clark
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From hibbard at wisc.edu  Thu Jul 27 14:51:42 2017
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:51:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] Entropy, life and intelligence
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1707270944260.31016@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

In the past I've posted these links:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0910/0910.2621.pdf
http://www.helsinki.fi/~aannila/arto/natprocess.pdf

to the work of Arto Annila about the relation
between entropy and life (and hence intelligence).

Here is some recent work by Jeremy England:

Spontaneous fine-tuning to environment in
many-species chemical reaction networks
Jordan M. Horowitz and Jeremy L. England
PNAS 2017 114 (29) 7565-7570

Self-Organized Resonance during Search of a Diverse
Chemical Space
Tal Kachman, Jeremy A. Owen, and Jeremy L. England
Phys. Rev. Lett. 119, 038001 ? Published 21 July 2017

Detailed analysis of how an external energy source
can drive chemical systems to non-equilibrium states.

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Thu Jul 27 14:55:59 2017
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:55:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] Entropy, life and intelligence
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1707270944260.31016@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1707270944260.31016@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1707270954570.31168@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

OOPS, forgot link to explanatory article:
https://www.quantamagazine.org/first-support-for-a-physics-theory-of-life-20170726/

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017, Bill Hibbard wrote:

> In the past I've posted these links:
>
> https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0910/0910.2621.pdf
> http://www.helsinki.fi/~aannila/arto/natprocess.pdf
>
> to the work of Arto Annila about the relation
> between entropy and life (and hence intelligence).
>
> Here is some recent work by Jeremy England:
>
> Spontaneous fine-tuning to environment in
> many-species chemical reaction networks
> Jordan M. Horowitz and Jeremy L. England
> PNAS 2017 114 (29) 7565-7570
>
> Self-Organized Resonance during Search of a Diverse
> Chemical Space
> Tal Kachman, Jeremy A. Owen, and Jeremy L. England
> Phys. Rev. Lett. 119, 038001 ? Published 21 July 2017
>
> Detailed analysis of how an external energy source
> can drive chemical systems to non-equilibrium states.
>
>

From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jul 27 15:58:05 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:58:05 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Why We Need a Decentralized Autonomous Space Agency
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyenOBs83w_rGYHQMVEb-4G_=3Q-QLtaH_z7g3atG-x+PA@mail.gmail.com>

Why We Need a Decentralized Autonomous Space Agency

On Motherboard, I argue that an open, decentralized, crowdsourced
space agency is an idea whose time has come. It will help us develop
new ways to reach and settle far-away planets and beyond, and also new
ways to work together here on Earth...

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/43d979/why-we-need-a-decentralized-autonomous-space-agency


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 03:45:49 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 23:45:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
Message-ID: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>

Until very recently virtually everybody in government thought financial
disclosure forms of anyone who wants to work in the White House was a
matter of public record, so confident were they that the government put
Anthony Scaramucci
?'s online:

http://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015d-81c1-dc5a-a1fd-a9e7f0a80001

?But then the ?n
ew White House communications director
 ?
informed everybody that they were wrong about that, it turns out to be a
felony, and apparently
? ?
Scaramucci
? is one of the great legal minds of our age.
Scaramucci
?
said in a tweet
? (?
where so much wisdom come
?s?
these days
?) that?
:

?*"?*
*In light of the leak of my financial disclosure info which is a felony, I
will be contacting @FBI and the @TheJusticeDept #swamp @Reince45"  *

So DO NOT CLICK ON THE ABOVE LINK because if you do you will have committed
a felony and end up in jail along with Trump's chief of staff  Reince
Priebus. I certainly didn't click on it myself, I just...ah... heard it was
there.

John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 05:24:38 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:24:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>

I clicked but then realized I was consuming literal clickbait

On Jul 27, 2017 23:47, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Until very recently virtually everybody in government thought financial
> disclosure forms of anyone who wants to work in the White House was a
> matter of public record, so confident were they that the government put
> Anthony Scaramucci
> ?'s online:
>
> http://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015d-81c1-dc5a-a1fd-a9e7f0a80001
>
> ?But then the ?n
> ew White House communications director
>  ?
> informed everybody that they were wrong about that, it turns out to be a
> felony, and apparently
> ? ?
> Scaramucci
> ? is one of the great legal minds of our age.
> Scaramucci
> ?
> said in a tweet
> ? (?
> where so much wisdom come
> ?s?
> these days
> ?) that?
> :
>
> ?*"?*
> *In light of the leak of my financial disclosure info which is a felony, I
> will be contacting @FBI and the @TheJusticeDept #swamp @Reince45"  *
>
> So DO NOT CLICK ON THE ABOVE LINK because if you do you will have
> committed a felony and end up in jail along with Trump's chief of staff
>  Reince Priebus. I certainly didn't click on it myself, I just...ah...
> heard it was there.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 05:25:28 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 01:25:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>

This is spam.  Not appropriate for this list.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 05:54:55 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 06:54:55 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AR glasses soon to replace screens from computers and
	smartphones
Message-ID: <CAL_armih3n8XTvt25Wpv9tYQ5kaBXCcYkOAV2tWBPYi89HZ2JQ@mail.gmail.com>

People are already replacing their desktop computers with smartglasses
25 Jul 2017

<http://uk.businessinsider.com/meta-ar-startup-employees-replace-computers-with-smartglasses-video-2017-7/>

Quote:

One Silicon Valley company is actually doing this right now. Meta is a
startup making an AR headset, and it's asking its employees to put
away their desktop computers and instead do their daily work inside
the Meta 2 headset.

Although Meta's engineers rebelled at first, according to Bloomberg,
the company's marketing, sales, and operations departments have
provided a lot of useful feedback because of the experiment.

Meta's desktop-discarding experiment is possible because Meta has
developed a piece of software for its headset it calls Workspace.

In Workspace, users can pop up several browser windows inside the
headset ? perhaps one to play a YouTube video and another to work on a
document. Software exists to create and place virtual sticky notes,
photos of your family, or even digital houseplants around your desk.
Basically, you can create your own virtual dream office.
------------------

There is a 2.5 min demo video at the link.

It is an early version, but you can see how it will develop.
With smaller headsets (like Google Glass) and improved software,
screens could well disappear.
I'm not sure about contact lens screens, but it might end up like that.


BillK



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 06:19:23 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 07:19:23 +0100
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhLtC0pc6HniB3E-uk1vJ0cLrUfzmmm_Tx_S+tB2hoJKg@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 July 2017 at 06:25, Will Steinberg  wrote:
> This is spam.  Not appropriate for this list.
>


Political spam has been appearing more often on the list recently
since half of the US don't much like the new president. The excuse
being that an extropian future depends on getting a nice president
that everyone likes.

This impossibility leads to the unending political arguments which led
to Anders leaving the list. Perhaps the moderators should pay more
attention to political rants on the list?   :)

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 12:47:58 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 08:47:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1ukP+ODq0Li25ijrTa9yxiDvTLn5ZXHOSge_pq8T8dzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> This is spam.  Not appropriate for this list.
>

?Iv'e been on this list one hell of a lot longer than you have sunny boy,
and I know that from day one politics has been a major topic for posts, and
many of them were far more radical and controversial than anything I ever
wrote. And is it really controversial to say Trump is a world class ass?

 John K Clark  ?




>
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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 14:30:44 2017
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:30:44 +0000
Subject: [ExI] AR glasses soon to replace screens from computers and
	smartphones
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armih3n8XTvt25Wpv9tYQ5kaBXCcYkOAV2tWBPYi89HZ2JQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armih3n8XTvt25Wpv9tYQ5kaBXCcYkOAV2tWBPYi89HZ2JQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBng=a8JA=KiQaAnWxc7WjKHXm7c1pGF5zhecC5wSc7r+vA@mail.gmail.com>

I have the Meta Development kit, that one is not ready for the masses...
And Meta lacks apps in a serious way.
The idea is on the verge though.
You do need all the involved applications to be AR aware and capable of
presenting information in the AR setting. If not, then you have a flashy
demo but no real product.
For a limited setting, like for example an intensive care or anaesthesia
workstation, it is possible to fake it with an external service handling
the presentation of information.  Except for all the big companies who only
work with "leading actors" on the international market, but they seriously
fail the AR aware requisite.
The projected price for the Meta 2 have dropped from a fully impossible
$3500 to a still too high $949, if you get to buy them at all that is. I
only have the Development kit thanks to kickstarter.
/Henrik



Den fre 28 juli 2017 07:59BillK <pharos at gmail.com> skrev:

> People are already replacing their desktop computers with smartglasses
> 25 Jul 2017
>
> <
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/meta-ar-startup-employees-replace-computers-with-smartglasses-video-2017-7/
> >
>
> Quote:
>
> One Silicon Valley company is actually doing this right now. Meta is a
> startup making an AR headset, and it's asking its employees to put
> away their desktop computers and instead do their daily work inside
> the Meta 2 headset.
>
> Although Meta's engineers rebelled at first, according to Bloomberg,
> the company's marketing, sales, and operations departments have
> provided a lot of useful feedback because of the experiment.
>
> Meta's desktop-discarding experiment is possible because Meta has
> developed a piece of software for its headset it calls Workspace.
>
> In Workspace, users can pop up several browser windows inside the
> headset ? perhaps one to play a YouTube video and another to work on a
> document. Software exists to create and place virtual sticky notes,
> photos of your family, or even digital houseplants around your desk.
> Basically, you can create your own virtual dream office.
> ------------------
>
> There is a 2.5 min demo video at the link.
>
> It is an early version, but you can see how it will develop.
> With smaller headsets (like Google Glass) and improved software,
> screens could well disappear.
> I'm not sure about contact lens screens, but it might end up like that.
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 14:27:14 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 07:27:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Peak oil doomsayers wrong?
Message-ID: <D27F88F3-BC97-417C-9145-7CBA11704FA9@gmail.com>

http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/27/peak-oil-what-hubberts-peak

I imagine a few years from, if annual production levels fall, peak oil will be back in the news. 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 15:20:47 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 11:20:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1ukP+ODq0Li25ijrTa9yxiDvTLn5ZXHOSge_pq8T8dzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1ukP+ODq0Li25ijrTa9yxiDvTLn5ZXHOSge_pq8T8dzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHwTXkcvv5f9COZKX4SP5oyqTv0An3tHqLKnw6iHz26uA@mail.gmail.com>

It's *obvious* how bad Trump is, you don't need to keep posting about it.
We all know!  What is the goal??

He sucks, duh.  At least he makes everyone hate the government.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 16:06:44 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 17:06:44 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AR glasses soon to replace screens from computers and
	smartphones
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBng=a8JA=KiQaAnWxc7WjKHXm7c1pGF5zhecC5wSc7r+vA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armih3n8XTvt25Wpv9tYQ5kaBXCcYkOAV2tWBPYi89HZ2JQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBng=a8JA=KiQaAnWxc7WjKHXm7c1pGF5zhecC5wSc7r+vA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj=hjSn-AsmKuUKE8EsvdcXeVeR5+t3a+_SiSmGkV1yRQ@mail.gmail.com>

The latest version of Google Glass AR is already in use in factory /
medical situations where an instruction manual can be paged through as
the work progresses. This is ideal as it leaves the user's hands free
to do the work.

I've just read another article that says that gesture recognition is
the next big step needed in AR. Many versions of the necessary GUI are
being worked on to find the most suitable environment for general use.

Lots of changes ahead!

BillK



On 28 July 2017 at 15:30, Henrik Ohrstrom wrote:
> I have the Meta Development kit, that one is not ready for the masses... And
> Meta lacks apps in a serious way.
> The idea is on the verge though.
> You do need all the involved applications to be AR aware and capable of
> presenting information in the AR setting. If not, then you have a flashy
> demo but no real product.
> For a limited setting, like for example an intensive care or anaesthesia
> workstation, it is possible to fake it with an external service handling the
> presentation of information.  Except for all the big companies who only work
> with "leading actors" on the international market, but they seriously fail
> the AR aware requisite.
> The projected price for the Meta 2 have dropped from a fully impossible
> $3500 to a still too high $949, if you get to buy them at all that is. I
> only have the Development kit thanks to kickstarter.
> /Henrik
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 20:29:37 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 15:29:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHwTXkcvv5f9COZKX4SP5oyqTv0An3tHqLKnw6iHz26uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1ukP+ODq0Li25ijrTa9yxiDvTLn5ZXHOSge_pq8T8dzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHwTXkcvv5f9COZKX4SP5oyqTv0An3tHqLKnw6iHz26uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYco+yDzorJEEZak0aG4b+OZZgyh9QVFkx8dEc9B-UUGA@mail.gmail.com>

will wrote:  It's *obvious* how bad Trump is, you don't need to keep
posting about it.  We all know!  What is the goal??

He sucks, duh.  At least he makes everyone hate the government.
?------
The American People hated the gov before Trump came along.  The Congress
has been getting terrible ratings, as we all know.  Or just the feds in
general.  The 'liberal' media as well.  So if Trump is dissing the media,
Congress, and nearly everyone else, this appeals to those? who gave all the
above terrible ratings as well.

In other words, he is dissing only those people his supporters want dissed,
which explains why so many of his voters are still with him - in addition
to the entertainment value, of course.  Apparently, Obama, Clinton etc. are
still popular targets with his voters.  No mystery here.

bill w?


On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It's *obvious* how bad Trump is, you don't need to keep posting about it.
> We all know!  What is the goal??
>
> He sucks, duh.  At least he makes everyone hate the government.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jul 28 21:15:00 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:15:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYco+yDzorJEEZak0aG4b+OZZgyh9QVFkx8dEc9B-UUGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1ukP+ODq0Li25ijrTa9yxiDvTLn5ZXHOSge_pq8T8dzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHwTXkcvv5f9COZKX4SP5oyqTv0An3tHqLKnw6iHz26uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYco+yDzorJEEZak0aG4b+OZZgyh9QVFkx8dEc9B-UUGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B995A199-6AD0-4E41-B334-921C58177023@gmail.com>

On Jul 28, 2017, at 1:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> will wrote:  It's *obvious* how bad Trump is, you don't need to keep posting about it.  We all know!  What is the goal??
> 
> He sucks, duh.  At least he makes everyone hate the government.
> ?------
> The American People hated the gov before Trump came along.  The Congress has been getting terrible ratings, as we all know.  Or just the feds in general.  The 'liberal' media as well.  So if Trump is dissing the media, Congress, and nearly everyone else, this appeals to those? who gave all the above terrible ratings as well.

I don't think they really hate it. I believe most don't think much about it and when they do the focus seems to be not on the institution but rather on certain people in it. (This is kind of like not being against slavery, but merely against vicious slave masters.) If most people truly hated the government, I believe things would look very different. In fact, under such conditions, the government would find it difficult to operate since it depends on cooperation and acquiescence if not active support of most people to remain in place. Once that goes, any real world government's days would be numbered. (Which doesn't mean a new government wouldn't simply emerge.)

> In other words, he is dissing only those people his supporters want dissed, which explains why so many of his voters are still with him - in addition to the entertainment value, of course.  Apparently, Obama, Clinton etc. are still popular targets with his voters.  No mystery here.

I still think the main reason he lost is that Clinton turned off many (to the point they didn't vote at all*) of folks who would've voted against Trump.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

* Not talking about principled non-voters here, but people who are in principle in favor of voting and, in fact, typically vote for Democrats but were put off by her.
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jul 29 18:46:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 11:46:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhLtC0pc6HniB3E-uk1vJ0cLrUfzmmm_Tx_S+tB2hoJKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34YsnpKo4mDrWXFtPauTUyMg1vk1cfYrpKja==yTbGHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHk41fi+Z44tCtf0XfnNRz6dtyH+mY=tbxWVyxYTXduAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyHF_9Z4ZCnNwk=5TX-7OiYUFJk3nABLh2ktn8AZ47=ayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhLtC0pc6HniB3E-uk1vJ0cLrUfzmmm_Tx_S+tB2hoJKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <059f01d3089a$ee650520$cb2f0f60$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2017 11:19 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!

On 28 July 2017 at 06:25, Will Steinberg  wrote:
> This is spam.  Not appropriate for this list.
>


>...Political spam has been appearing more often on the list recently since
half of the US don't much like the new president. The excuse being that an
extropian future depends on getting a nice president that everyone likes.

>...This impossibility leads to the unending political arguments which led
to Anders leaving the list. Perhaps the moderators should pay more
attention to political rants on the list?   :)

>...BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja, BillK, I was hoping that would fade away, and it has to some extent, but
if you check the archives, there has always been an element of political
chatter on ExI.  I and the other moderators have taken the Calvin Coolidge
approach for the most part: she moderates best who moderates least.  Losing
Anders was a huge blow, but I hope he will wander back in.

In the useless political rants (useless because we already know how bad it
is) there are some really interesting threads, such as how political power
has become all about information control.  It makes us wonder if it has
always been that way and we are just now figuring out what Orwell knew in
1949, or if it is really something new.

I do urge we find the extropian content if posting anything political.  If
we want anti-Trump stuff, all we need to do is listen to CNN or MSNBC.
Snore.

Play ball!

spike



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jul 31 15:51:15 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 08:51:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] quake storm video
Message-ID: <013701d30a14$d8b12cb0$8a138610$@att.net>

 

That video is pretty clear evidence to me that dropping waste water into the
ground lubricates the fault lines and leads to increasing earthquakes:

 

https://www.livescience.com/59977-watch-swarms-of-earthquakes-sweep-across-o
klahoma.html?utm_source=notification

 

The continental plates are going to do what they are going to do, regardless
of how lubricated the faultine one would think.  So perhaps we should
intentionally lubricate the faults to dissipate the energy in harmless swarm
hundreds of 4s and 4.5s rather than one huge destructive 7.7 or higher.
Those 4.5s don't amount to much.  Below about 4.3 one scarcely notices them.

 

spike

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