From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:05:39 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 11:05:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] secrecy is power, was: RE: clarification
In-Reply-To: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>
References: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv19=kiMKJCuXQnytGQBHYD_xKhWUutnWfh0N0xwco_D_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 1:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
?> ?
> Oy.  This worries me in that it gets the students accustomed to the notion
> that secret communication is illegal.
>

?
There is
?even ?
more reason to worry now
?than?
?
before November
? ?
8. Trump's
? ?
Attorney General
?,?
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III
?, ?
wants to force Silicon Valley companies to put backdoors in all their
products so the government can snoop. Sessions said:

 "*It is critical that national security and criminal investigators be able
to overcome encryption, under lawful authority, when necessary to the
furtherance of national security and criminal investigations.*"

? John K Clark?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:28:48 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 11:28:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>

This one is the most distant yet, 3 billion light years, it was detected on
January 4 2017, 2 Black Holes of 36 and 29 solar masses collided and
resulted in a Black Hole of 49 solar masses with the missing mass going
into Gravity Wave energy:

http://www.nola.com/science/index.ssf/2017/06/louisiana_ligo_scientists_hear.html

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:36:34 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 11:36:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Kfx1sSb_9Zo=XZzjeL=okaKt2n0HhH-R2ap81Ci2iNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Correction: that should be 31.2 solar masses colliding with 19.4 solar
masses resulting in a 48.7 solar mass Black Hole with 2 solar masses
converted into gradational wave energy.

John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 15:47:07 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:47:07 +0200
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2Kfx1sSb_9Zo=XZzjeL=okaKt2n0HhH-R2ap81Ci2iNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2Kfx1sSb_9Zo=XZzjeL=okaKt2n0HhH-R2ap81Ci2iNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFT8=uWmk=Q=Hda_W-2X4301JQVcycUGjRWXDEpk46gbyw@mail.gmail.com>

Excellent! This is the first BH merger detected as far as I am concerned.
Quite likely that this time they have something.

Congratulations!

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 5:36 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Correction: that should be 31.2 solar masses colliding with 19.4 solar
> masses resulting in a 48.7 solar mass Black Hole with 2 solar masses
> converted into gradational wave energy.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 17:30:09 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:30:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] secrecy is power, was: RE: clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv19=kiMKJCuXQnytGQBHYD_xKhWUutnWfh0N0xwco_D_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv19=kiMKJCuXQnytGQBHYD_xKhWUutnWfh0N0xwco_D_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTO3OKVF9RKWFpN+4JYRO0i7_ZV+CnWBnUgW+tOGE-NBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 1, 2017 8:08 AM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

There is
?even ?
more reason to worry now
?than?
?
before November
? ?
8. Trump's
? ?
Attorney General
?,?
Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III
?, ?
wants to force Silicon Valley companies to put backdoors in all their
products so the government can snoop.


How is this news?  That's been the position of most of the top federal law
enforcement going back to at least the Clinton presidency, arguably Bush
Senior (google "secret service cyberpunk" if you don't already know about
their mishap in 1990 about a role playing game).
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  1 18:50:39 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 13:50:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] pot news
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZe_=FL8=udXE+fRJRzbsnheeEYFBHPA74frn27RK77_w@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2017-05/uob-cra050817.php
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun  1 20:07:33 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 13:07:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2Kfx1sSb_9Zo=XZzjeL=okaKt2n0HhH-R2ap81Ci2iNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2Kfx1sSb_9Zo=XZzjeL=okaKt2n0HhH-R2ap81Ci2iNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012801d2db12$b54778a0$1fd669e0$@att.net>

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 8:37 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger

 

Correction: that should be 31.2 solar masses colliding with 19.4 solar masses resulting in a 48.7 solar mass Black Hole with 2 solar masses converted into gradational wave energy.

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

My apologies, I should read everything before posting anything.  Onward!

 

spike

 

 

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun  1 20:06:31 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 13:06:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012301d2db12$90d2bcf0$b27836d0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 8:29 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger

 

This one is the most distant yet, 3 billion light years, it was detected on January 4 2017, 2 Black Holes of 36 and 29 solar masses collided and resulted in a Black Hole of 49 solar masses with the missing mass going into Gravity Wave energy:

 

http://www.nola.com/science/index.ssf/2017/06/louisiana_ligo_scientists_hear.html

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

 

These two masses were 19 and 31.  John you scared me a bit with the 36/29, these being the masses of the first detected pair.  If we had two pairs of the same masses, I would think we have some kind of problem with the instrument.  No worries, we had about 2 solar masses go into gravitational energy.

 

Fun aside, the older ones among us may recall our misspent childhood when we first read about black holes.  Note how little was known about them back in the bad old days, oy vey.  Now we are seeing these mergers more often than Jingle Bells.  Cool!

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:06:46 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:06:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Primordial Black Holes
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>

The January 4 2017 event gives more support to the idea Dark Matter
?is?

?made of ?
primordial Black Holes born a nanosecond after the Big
?B?ang
 and were never stars. The spin of one of the Black
?H?
oles is not in the same direction
?as ?
the other
??
and
?of ?
?their orbit,
 binary stars almost always are. If there were born at different times and
at different places the universe is now so spread out it is unlikely there
would be enough time for the two to find each
?other ?
and go into orbit, but very very early in the universe thing
?s?
were much more crowded and that would be more likely to happen.  If LIGO
can eve
?r?
find a merger where one of the Black Holes was less than 3 solar masses
that would be the smoking gun, that
?guy ?
would have to be primordial.

In addition, some rival theories to Einstein's say gravitational waves
don't all travel at the same speed but depends on their frequency, this
merger was twice as far away as the previous two so it's the best test yet
of that , and Einstein wins again, all the waves move at the same speed
(presumably light speed) regardless of frequency.

John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 00:43:58 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:43:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Primordial Black Holes
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <623235D0-4149-4257-AAAB-FEB4464E2316@gmail.com>

On Jun 1, 2017, at 5:06 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> The January 4 2017 event gives more support to the idea Dark Matter ?is? ?made of ?primordial Black Holes born a nanosecond after the Big ?B?ang and were never stars. The spin of one of the Black ?H?oles is not in the same direction ?as ?the other?? and ?of ??their orbit,  binary stars almost always are. If there were born at different times and at different places the universe is now so spread out it is unlikely there would be enough time for the two to find each ?other ?and go into orbit, but very very early in the universe thing?s? were much more crowded and that would be more likely to happen.  If LIGO can eve?r? find a merger where one of the Black Holes was less than 3 solar masses that would be the smoking gun, that ?guy ?would have to be primordial.
> 
> In addition, some rival theories to Einstein's say gravitational waves don't all travel at the same speed but depends on their frequency, this merger was twice as far away as the previous two so it's the best test yet of that , and Einstein wins again, all the waves move at the same speed (presumably light speed) regardless of frequency.

Would that be dark matter in the usual sense of the term -- as in an exotic form of matter we expect to be very different from quarks and leptons even when they're collapsed into a black hole?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  2 00:43:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:43:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Primordial Black Holes
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d2db39$32c07c20$98417460$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2017 5:07 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Primordial Black Holes

 

>?The January 4 2017 event gives more support to the idea Dark Matter 

?is?

made of ?

primordial Black Holes born a nanosecond after the Big 

?B?ang?

 

 

I sure hope that notion turns out to be right.  Dark matter has always bothered me.

 

 

 

>?Einstein wins again, all the waves move at the same speed (presumably light speed) regardless of frequency.

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

Wooohooo!

 

Oh what a time to be living.  I don?t eeeeeven deserve to be here now.  So lucky, soooo lucky to live in this glorious decade of this astonishing century.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From hibbard at wisc.edu  Fri Jun  2 01:44:05 2017
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2017 20:44:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

On 28 May 2017, Spike  wrote:

>  .On Friday, officials said the Pentagon will try to shoot down an
>  intercontinental-range missile for the first time in a test this week. The
>  goal is to more closely simulate a North Korean ICBM aimed at the U.S.
>  homeland, officials said.
>
>  North Korea is now the focus of U.S. efforts because its leader has vowed to
>  field a nuclear-armed missile capable of reaching American territory.
>
>  http://abcnews.go.com/International/pentagon-conduct-icbm-intercept-test/story?id=47667872
>
>  Shall we start a betting pool on whether the attempted intercept will hit
>  the target?

Cool Spike!

This one worked. N Korea responded by threatening
to reduce the US to ashes. This work is partly an
honest effort to defend against N Korea and partly,
I believe, to pressure China and Russia into helping
to halt the N Korean and Iranian programs.

>  Is this not remarkable?  The top military brass was already thinking about
>  how to deal with the Dear Leader and his offspring at least 26 yrs ago.

In 1971-72 I worked for MIT Lincoln Labs on ballistic
missile defense - 46 years ago. Pretty primitive in
those days.

I had a clearance but never learned any secrets. Got my
clearance despite the fact that one of my roommates at
U. of Wisconsin was convicted of of attempting to
firebomb the campus ROTC building, and my roommate at
Princeton U. was indicted for attempting to set the
Institute for Defense Analysis on fire. My politics were
conservative at the time, but most of my friends were
lefties because they were more fun (not that setting
places on fire was fun). Note both these guys failed to
actually light anything on fire.

Bill


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  2 03:13:57 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 20:13:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <001e01d2db4e$46afe3f0$d40fabd0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Bill Hibbard


>>...  Shall we start a betting pool on whether the attempted intercept will
hit  the target?

>...Cool Spike!

Ja, I am impressed.  I am shamed that I only offered 30 cents a share for a
hit.

https://www.rt.com/usa/390362-pentagon-missile-intercept-video/

>...This one worked. N Korea responded by threatening to reduce the US to
ashes. This work is partly an honest effort to defend against N Korea and
partly, I believe, to pressure China and Russia into helping to halt the N
Korean and Iranian programs... Bill

Ja, it would hafta give pause to the Dear Leader.  Or was Dear Leader the
old man?  Is this kid the New Leader?  Young Leader?  Fat Leader?  In any
case, the calculus of any attack would change.  Now if he pops one in our
direction, it might or might not reduce anything on this side of the
Pacific.  It would certainly reduce his local environs to ashes.

We are entering a scary new era, after living so long in a scary old era,
where mutual assured destruction kept the peace.  Consider now: the cost of
an interceptor is all in the design.  Once you get the design working, you
can churn out arbitrarily many of them for not much money.  We could have
every major city bristling with ABMs in short order, if we can get the
commies to play along.  

We haven't really dealt with China under MAD; that whole notion has been
Russia and the yanks all along.  If we are to believe what we are told by
the news people, the commies like the current POTUS and helped him get
elected.  Perhaps that means they will make a deal, then both countries get
as many ABMs as they want, then suddenly... for the first time in a typical
human lifetime, we can no longer destroy the planet, even if we wanted to.

Terrifying!  How shall we cope?

spike



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:24:30 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 13:24:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Primordial Black Holes
In-Reply-To: <623235D0-4149-4257-AAAB-FEB4464E2316@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv1QvD=7L7rZHb9mPFHMxq889pNWU+ExwbuviRrQU4qcjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <623235D0-4149-4257-AAAB-FEB4464E2316@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3xOmebAdkJg3acL-yMpvmRtjAGsSLyDn-MBHhi=a61xQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 8:43 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Would that be dark matter in the usual sense of the term -- as in an
> exotic form of matter we expect to be very different from quarks and
> leptons even when they're collapsed into a black hole?
>

No, in this view there is no exotic form of matter there is just regular
matter and Primordial
? Black Holes formed before there were stars or atoms or even protons and
electrons and everything was just a Quark-Gluon Plasma with things so
chaotic that some places became dense enough to become Black Holes.

But not all Black Holes are primordial, just a few days ago there was a
article in The
? ?
Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society
? ?
about a star called
? ?
N6946-BH1, it is 22 million light years away and is at least 25 times as
massive as our sun. It's luminosity stayed constant from 1999 to 2009 but
then started to brighten, at it's peak it was one million times as bright
as the sun, that's bright but not supernova bright, they can be 100 billion
times brighter; still it was churning out lots of optical and ultraviolet
light, and then overnight it just disappeared. No explosion, no supernova,
just gone. It seems to have gone directly from a star to a Black Hole
skipping the supernova stage entirely . All that can be seen now is a very
faint infrared glow probably caused by a small amount of debris
? ?
forming a accretion disk around the Black Hole.

John K Clark
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 17:24:40 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 13:24:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
In-Reply-To: <001e01d2db4e$46afe3f0$d40fabd0$@att.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001e01d2db4e$46afe3f0$d40fabd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJmXx3cWjHiVFC4sCaKhHJvGT1edATpho4tT9Y3ipUxyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 11:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> We haven't really dealt with China under MAD; that whole notion has been
> Russia and the yanks all along.  If we are to believe what we are told by
> the news people, the commies like the current POTUS and helped him get
> elected.  Perhaps that means they will make a deal, then both countries get
> as many ABMs as they want, then suddenly... for the first time in a typical
> human lifetime, we can no longer destroy the planet, even if we wanted to.
>
> Terrifying!  How shall we cope?
>
>
There's more than one way to destroy the planet.

We've still got a lot of dead dinos to burn... and that eventually leads to
everyone drowning in what was once polar ice, right?

Ok, so it's not as exciting as nuclear exchange but I hear we're already
well on our way.

hmm... "Nuclear exchange" sounds like you get a deposit back when you
recycle the empties... "Can I get a discount on new nukes if I return some
old ones?"
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  2 17:59:46 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 10:59:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJmXx3cWjHiVFC4sCaKhHJvGT1edATpho4tT9Y3ipUxyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001e01d2db4e$46afe3f0$d40fabd0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJmXx3cWjHiVFC4sCaKhHJvGT1edATpho4tT9Y3ipUxyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01d2dbca$0638d3f0$12aa7bd0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] test of icbm intercept

 

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 11:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

>>? the commies like the current POTUS and helped him get
elected.  Perhaps that means they will make a deal, then both countries get
as many ABMs as they want, then suddenly... for the first time in a typical
human lifetime, we can no longer destroy the planet, even if we wanted to.

Terrifying!  How shall we cope?

 

>?There's more than one way to destroy the planet?

Oh OK well then.  That?s a relief.

>?We've still got a lot of dead dinos to burn... and that eventually leads to everyone drowning in what was once polar ice, right?

Eh, no, we don?t all drown.  This has me worried again, for all the polar ice melting fails to utterly destroy mankind and all civilization.  That scenario is ineffective at mutual assured destruction.  Oh dear!

>?Ok, so it's not as exciting as nuclear exchange but I hear we're already well on our way?

Ja, all this comes just when we were getting comfortable with the old notion of a fiery holocaust enveloping all of mankind. 

A slow-motion Armageddon over several centuries with humanity pulling back from the coastline and building new cities and better civilizations inland is just too terrifying to imagine.

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun  2 18:41:29 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 14:41:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detects a third Black Hole merger
In-Reply-To: <012301d2db12$90d2bcf0$b27836d0$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv2OUpboBECjnUKY1z7UC9jHv3reptn6VvVet63zQPd7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <012301d2db12$90d2bcf0$b27836d0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Ji-MGH9sPQ6SxgbFaJ4mOwC3efYJqN0pCqK_nNZvgfw@mail.gmail.com>

This is a good 20 minute movie about the first LIGO detection:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCygLIT824s

John K Clark



>
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 02:16:18 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2017 22:16:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] test of icbm intercept
In-Reply-To: <006f01d2dbca$0638d3f0$12aa7bd0$@att.net>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.20.1706012039540.22270@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001e01d2db4e$46afe3f0$d40fabd0$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbJmXx3cWjHiVFC4sCaKhHJvGT1edATpho4tT9Y3ipUxyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006f01d2dbca$0638d3f0$12aa7bd0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLJ=iJJBE41j_GFy8vboYMsX01UL-qZx7UneQUZJPRuow@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 2, 2017 2:16 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

Eh, no, we don?t all drown.  This has me worried again, for all the polar
ice melting fails to utterly destroy mankind and all civilization.  That
scenario is ineffective at mutual assured destruction.  Oh dear!

A slow-motion Armageddon over several centuries with humanity pulling back
from the coastline and building new cities and better civilizations inland
is just too terrifying to imagine.

Well, if it makes you feel better we could have some bored college students
bio-hack a plague.  Maybe the doomsday folk will avoid immediate death;
 but whatever the plague doesn't get, the lack of everything civilization
produces will take care of.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 09:26:03 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 10:26:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Intel announces massive 18-core Core i9 chip
Message-ID: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>

The Core i9 Extreme Edition i9-7980XE, what Intel calls the first
teraflop desktop PC processor ever, will be priced at (gulp!) $1,999
when it ships later this year. In a slightly lower tier will be the
meat of the Core i9 family: Core i9 X-series chips in 16-core,
14-core, 12-core, and 10-core versions, with prices climbing from $999
to $1,699.

<http://www.pcworld.com/article/3198430/components/intels-core-i9-starts-a-bloody-battle-for-enthusiast-pcs.html>

While powerful, it runs very hot and requires a new motherboard with a
new liquid cooling system, so initially it will be for rich
enthusiasts only. :)

But there are also improvements lower down the scale, with quad-core
becoming the minimum entry-level processor.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 17:11:31 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 13:11:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Intel announces massive 18-core Core i9 chip
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2g5omMCPTZvT4D1GsHrfjS9_bXUG=NARHpz0bZWc82ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> The Core i9 Extreme Edition i9-7980XE, what Intel calls the first
> teraflop desktop PC processor ever, will be priced at (gulp!) $1,999
> when it ships later this year.


In a historical context $1,999 is not a lot of money. The world's first
? ?
teraflop
? ?
Supercomputer was ASCI Red, it went online in 1997 and cost 46 million
dollars. And that was in 1997 dollars, counting inflation that must be
close to 100 million
? today?
. So the price dropped from that of one of the most luxurious yachts in the
world to that of a moderately well provisioned rowboat.

Moore's law
? ?
in action.

? John K Clark?
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 19:08:21 2017
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2017 19:08:21 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Intel announces massive 18-core Core i9 chip
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2g5omMCPTZvT4D1GsHrfjS9_bXUG=NARHpz0bZWc82ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2g5omMCPTZvT4D1GsHrfjS9_bXUG=NARHpz0bZWc82ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2+hjds=87gO+dsj7BB1+wSfsUK-bQ6ckoEEBfH7sA5X1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017, 13:13 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> The Core i9 Extreme Edition i9-7980XE, what Intel calls the first
>> teraflop desktop PC processor ever, will be priced at (gulp!) $1,999
>> when it ships later this year.
>
>
> In a historical context $1,999 is not a lot of money. The world's first
> ? ?
> teraflop
> ? ?
> Supercomputer was ASCI Red, it went online in 1997 and cost 46 million
> dollars. And that was in 1997 dollars, counting inflation that must be
> close to 100 million
> ? today?
> . So the price dropped from that of one of the most luxurious yachts in
> the world to that of a moderately well provisioned rowboat.
>
> Moore's law
> ? ?
> in action.
>


Looks like I've found the processor for the Thermaltake 900 in white I
picked up.

>
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From interzone at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 19:18:18 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 15:18:18 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Intel announces massive 18-core Core i9 chip
In-Reply-To: <CADDVf2+hjds=87gO+dsj7BB1+wSfsUK-bQ6ckoEEBfH7sA5X1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2g5omMCPTZvT4D1GsHrfjS9_bXUG=NARHpz0bZWc82ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2+hjds=87gO+dsj7BB1+wSfsUK-bQ6ckoEEBfH7sA5X1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-f5PmEmoS-4g4YY52BFNNLTLOVsGhhJA5rXfD4qiYQJw@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like a sweet case!  You may want to see where pricing on the AMD 16
core threadripper comes in also.  I would expect it will be announced
shortly.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 3:08 PM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017, 13:13 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?> ?
>>> The Core i9 Extreme Edition i9-7980XE, what Intel calls the first
>>> teraflop desktop PC processor ever, will be priced at (gulp!) $1,999
>>> when it ships later this year.
>>
>>
>> In a historical context $1,999 is not a lot of money. The world's first
>> ? ?
>> teraflop
>> ? ?
>> Supercomputer was ASCI Red, it went online in 1997 and cost 46 million
>> dollars. And that was in 1997 dollars, counting inflation that must be
>> close to 100 million
>> ? today?
>> . So the price dropped from that of one of the most luxurious yachts in
>> the world to that of a moderately well provisioned rowboat.
>>
>> Moore's law
>> ? ?
>> in action.
>>
>
>
> Looks like I've found the processor for the Thermaltake 900 in white I
> picked up.
>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jun  3 20:36:16 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 13:36:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon
Message-ID: <004301d2dca9$0d8269c0$28873d40$@att.net>

Musk is going to go for another succes.  You can watch this if you get on in
the next 35 minutes, from Cape Canaveral, 1705 today, 3 June 2017:

 

http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html?utm_s
ource=notification

 

It is taking stuff to the station.  

 

Good luck and evolution speed, Musk!  

 

Watch!

 

spike

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From interzone at gmail.com  Sat Jun  3 21:07:34 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 17:07:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Intel announces massive 18-core Core i9 chip
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-f5PmEmoS-4g4YY52BFNNLTLOVsGhhJA5rXfD4qiYQJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi08urxFV5MZ64GGC7qKCSJfxCRjFVNTuPN1dViacdRQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2g5omMCPTZvT4D1GsHrfjS9_bXUG=NARHpz0bZWc82ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADDVf2+hjds=87gO+dsj7BB1+wSfsUK-bQ6ckoEEBfH7sA5X1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-f5PmEmoS-4g4YY52BFNNLTLOVsGhhJA5rXfD4qiYQJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-Vv2gza23QHj2RKh+aGoZqfzh+RDkZ5L=PTEFf=Hwhbw@mail.gmail.com>

Current rumor as of today on threadripper pricing is $849.  If that turns
out to be the case, and the other specs are in line, I'm likely going that
route for my impending build.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:

> Looks like a sweet case!  You may want to see where pricing on the AMD 16
> core threadripper comes in also.  I would expect it will be announced
> shortly.
>
> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 3:08 PM, J.R. Jones <mrjones2020 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017, 13:13 John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:26 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> ?> ?
>>>> The Core i9 Extreme Edition i9-7980XE, what Intel calls the first
>>>> teraflop desktop PC processor ever, will be priced at (gulp!) $1,999
>>>> when it ships later this year.
>>>
>>>
>>> In a historical context $1,999 is not a lot of money. The world's first
>>> ? ?
>>> teraflop
>>> ? ?
>>> Supercomputer was ASCI Red, it went online in 1997 and cost 46 million
>>> dollars. And that was in 1997 dollars, counting inflation that must be
>>> close to 100 million
>>> ? today?
>>> . So the price dropped from that of one of the most luxurious yachts in
>>> the world to that of a moderately well provisioned rowboat.
>>>
>>> Moore's law
>>> ? ?
>>> in action.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Looks like I've found the processor for the Thermaltake 900 in white I
>> picked up.
>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jun  3 21:06:07 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 14:06:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon
In-Reply-To: <004301d2dca9$0d8269c0$28873d40$@att.net>
References: <004301d2dca9$0d8269c0$28873d40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <005d01d2dcad$38f0e510$aad2af30$@att.net>

 

 

 

http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html?utm_s
ource=notification

 

 

We are still on, 3 minutes to go.

 

s

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2017 1:36 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon

 

Musk is going to go for another succes.  You can watch this if you get on in
the next 35 minutes, from Cape Canaveral, 1705 today, 3 June 2017:

 

http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html?utm_s
ource=notification

 

It is taking stuff to the station.  

 

Good luck and evolution speed, Musk!  

 

Watch!

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jun  3 21:21:21 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 14:21:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon
References: <004301d2dca9$0d8269c0$28873d40$@att.net> 
Message-ID: <006701d2dcaf$596a4550$0c3ecff0$@att.net>

Woohooo!  He did it!  Musk made it to orbit and recovered the booster feet
first.

 

Oh this so cool.  Now THAT'S some controls engineering there.  Well done,
lads.

 

spike

 

From: spike [mailto:spike66 at att.net] 
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2017 2:06 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: RE: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon

 

 

 

 

http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html?utm_s
ource=notification

 

 

We are still on, 3 minutes to go.

 

s

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of spike
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2017 1:36 PM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
<mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
Subject: [ExI] elon to pop another dragon

 

Musk is going to go for another succes.  You can watch this if you get on in
the next 35 minutes, from Cape Canaveral, 1705 today, 3 June 2017:

 

http://www.space.com/17933-nasa-television-webcasts-live-space-tv.html?utm_s
ource=notification

 

It is taking stuff to the station.  

 

Good luck and evolution speed, Musk!  

 

Watch!

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 01:41:59 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 21:41:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] secrecy is power, was: RE: clarification
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTO3OKVF9RKWFpN+4JYRO0i7_ZV+CnWBnUgW+tOGE-NBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv19=kiMKJCuXQnytGQBHYD_xKhWUutnWfh0N0xwco_D_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTO3OKVF9RKWFpN+4JYRO0i7_ZV+CnWBnUgW+tOGE-NBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Dm402RzkTZJ2HvcV589TSGUPZY1yPmUMGCX3ZkSFNwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> ?>> ?
> There is
> ?even ?
> more reason to worry now
> ?than?
> ?
> before November
> ? ?
> 8. Trump's
> ? ?
> Attorney General
> ?,?
> Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III
> ?, ?
> wants to force Silicon Valley companies to put backdoors in all their
> products so the government can snoop.
>
>
> ?> ?
> How is this news?  That's been the position of most of the top federal law
> enforcement going back to at least the Clinton presidency,
>

?It's not unusual for politicians to dislike encryption, they want to keep
their secrets from you but don't want you to be able to keep your secrets
from them. However none has gone as far as candidate Trump who tweeted:  ?


?"?
*Boycott all Apple products until such time as Apple gives cellphone info
to authorities*
?".

John K Clark?








> arguably Bush Senior (google "secret service cyberpunk" if you don't
> already know about their mishap in 1990 about a role playing game).
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jun  4 02:55:47 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2017 19:55:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] secrecy is power, was: RE: clarification
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Dm402RzkTZJ2HvcV589TSGUPZY1yPmUMGCX3ZkSFNwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <016501d2d70a$fe0019f0$fa004dd0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv19=kiMKJCuXQnytGQBHYD_xKhWUutnWfh0N0xwco_D_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTO3OKVF9RKWFpN+4JYRO0i7_ZV+CnWBnUgW+tOGE-NBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1Dm402RzkTZJ2HvcV589TSGUPZY1yPmUMGCX3ZkSFNwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003301d2dcde$11edc010$35c94030$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
?

 

?>?It's not unusual for politicians to dislike encryption, they want to keep their secrets from you but don't want you to be able to keep your secrets from them. However none has gone as far as candidate Trump who tweeted:  ?

 

 

?"?

Boycott all Apple products until such time as Apple gives cellphone info to authorities

?".

 

John K Clark?

 

 

Follow the money: perhaps he directed his broker to buy him a ton of Apple stock the day before, then gave it all this free advertising.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 11:49:02 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:49:02 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How gaming Google changes public opinion
Message-ID: <CAL_armhuL_+_Fu1jsY1kpqeKFqdLYBO1w98jhKCEvnyhKaSCEQ@mail.gmail.com>

Big read, but important. Google manipulation is now on such a large
scale that it changes the way people see the world.

<https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2017/06/how-the-trump-russia-data-machine-games-google-to.html>

How the Trump-Russia Data Machine Games Google to Fool Americans
By Roger Sollenberger  |  June 1, 2017

Quotes:

First: Why this is important. Why this is a war.

Google, whether you?re aware of it or not, is a total slaughterhouse.
Trump?s data team (he?s reportedly set up a ?war room? to combat the
Russia story) has weaponized information, and for about a year now has
been slaying American brains: Trump supporters? brains. It started
with the election, then died down, but now it?s coming back, vengeful
and desperate.

As a result, we?re at a pivotal point not just in the life of our
democracy, but in how we think, read, and make choices. Selective
information is being presented to us in a way that encourages
selective reading and offers psychological and social rewards for, to
put it bluntly, being stupid and submissive and spreading stupid to
submit others.
--------------

The Google algorithm orders its search results, among other ways, by
popular keywords used, publish date, and how many other links point to
your site. You can do things to max out your keyword SEO, like I did
in my last job, but the results we?re seeing here, their consistency,
the thoroughness of their victory, and the standardization of the
messaging all requires a well-funded, well-coordinated effort. Ask any
digital marketing expert: This is an organization of writers and data
geeks who are paid handsomely to spend all day churning out content,
pointing readers from one site to another, and using social media bots
as vectors to beam this misinformation out to micro-targeted
demographics.

It?s a truly amazing operation. Time Magazine did an outstanding piece
of reporting on this quite recently. So did The Guardian, here. Those
pieces will scare the shit out of you. If they don?t, I?m afraid
you?re an unwitting casualty of this war.

<http://time.com/4783932/inside-russia-social-media-war-america/>

<https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy>

-------------------

I want to remind you, at the end of this technical stuff, that we?re
talking about something critical: How our brains work determines how
our tribes are formed and behave, which determines how our society
functions, or doesn?t.

Because check this out: Who do these weapons target? These sites are
havens for people who already support Trump or who already hate the
left. The psychological weapon of misinformation is therefore perhaps
unique in that it?s intended primarily for use against your ?allies,?
to further entrench or indoctrinate them in your camp.

The result? The American psyche is being transformed. Truthfully, it
already has been. We?ve entered a new political, philosophical,
social, and cultural era. People don?t seem to understand yet, or
aren?t willing to face it, but reality is completely malleable. Even
in America.

After all, the only things that can be true to you (that is, capital-T
?True?) is what you choose to believe about the world around you. You
get to make that choice yourself. For some of us it?s a freedom.
Others a burden. Trump?s crew and the right wing elite have understood
this for years. Hell, the Russian people have lived with this for
decades. We?re no match. We?re soft targets. All a propagandist has to
do is link our identity to our beliefs. Once that?s accomplished, your
identity anchors your beliefs. But then you start to see there?s this
huge web of believers out there, and a common identity begins to shape
up. A tribe emerges. Never mind that half of them are robots: You?re
not giving up who you are. And so if your beliefs define who you are,
as a person and as a member of a tribe, there?s nothing in the world
short of an existential cataclysm that will ever, ever get you to
change your mind.

If you don?t want to.

------------------------



BillK



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Jun  4 19:08:13 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2017 12:08:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The "Wow!" signal explained?
Message-ID: <8B9F0EDC-6F9C-46B1-AC66-E4BA094925B1@gmail.com>

http://planetary-science.org/research/the-wow-signal/

If you don't want to read even the abstract: the explanation seems to be a comet inside the solar system and nothing involving ETI.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From col.hales at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 03:18:24 2017
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 13:18:24 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Trilemma of Consciousness
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJk1KfSYeBo1sdA6Dhv8eVs8Y9UMJPhQGN6-7m0DduaoiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Stuart,

The Reno/Melbourne commute is a bit epic!

I can't stress enough how important adding (subset delineation/1st-person
operators) to set theory is to the science of consciousness and physics
generally. I bet there's something simple sitting right in front of
everybody.

I can't drive it tho. I'm driving too many things already. I can only work
miracles in a few things at once!

If you think I might advise on soem idea you have .... let me know.
Meanwhile I'll poke as many set theory bears as I can.

cheers
colin


On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Colin Hales wrote:
>
> >Consciousness is completely missing from current set theory. It can be
> >added. But I don't have the maths skill to sort it out formally. I wrote
> >this up in my book. Perhaps you have the math skill?
>
> I agree with you that set theory done right could help explain
> consciousness. But like you, I don't know if I have the ability, time, or
> credentials to fix ZFC set theory.
>
> I do appreciate the notes. I still need time to digest them, then I will
> get back to you on them. Maybe this would be a good collaboration for us.
>
> >I don't have the time or the skill to do this new set theory. But I'm
> >working out how to build it, which needs no theory, just knowledge of how
> >the brain does it with electromagnetism. I can build that.
> >Somebody has to do this new part of set theory.
> >
> >Off you go. Just put me in the acknowledgements. :-)
>
> I will do better than that, Colin. If you ever want to spend a weekend
> losing money in Reno, shoot me an email and I will buy you a beer at the
> local pub. :-)
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 16:30:53 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:30:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] short book review
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>

Murakami's 1Q84

Did not want to stop reading and did not want to finish.  5 stars +

Best book he's written so far.  Heavy on fantasy - good ending (I don't
read books with sad endings)

Nobel Prize in the near future?

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 16:49:19 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:49:19 +0100
Subject: [ExI] short book review
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhVoXsQhswPD8rCWPjw_dRcvGRpLRZJY2FMf62nGN_YUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 June 2017 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> Murakami's 1Q84
>
> Did not want to stop reading and did not want to finish.  5 stars +
> Best book he's written so far.  Heavy on fantasy - good ending (I don't read
> books with sad endings)
>
> Nobel Prize in the near future?
>

For people who have never heard of this book (or author) it is useful
to give a few links for more information.

Author's site
<http://www.murakamibooks.co.uk/1q84/>

Wikipedia
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1Q84>

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 17:10:18 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 12:10:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] short book review
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhVoXsQhswPD8rCWPjw_dRcvGRpLRZJY2FMf62nGN_YUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhVoXsQhswPD8rCWPjw_dRcvGRpLRZJY2FMf62nGN_YUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZpB-QU5fVmUQepxiFyqMOSY62NfAy58dG8QYc=zptFhA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 11:49 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5 June 2017 at 17:30, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> > Murakami's 1Q84
> >
> > Did not want to stop reading and did not want to finish.  5 stars +
> > Best book he's written so far.  Heavy on fantasy - good ending (I don't
> read
> > books with sad endings)
> >
> > Nobel Prize in the near future?
> >
>
> For people who have never heard of this book (or author) it is useful
> to give a few links for more information.
>
> Author's site
> <http://www.murakamibooks.co.uk/1q84/>
>
> Wikipedia
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1Q84>
>
> BillK
>

?Thanks.  I will do so in the future - but I would be very surprised if a
regular reader would be so ignorant (maybe not the best choice of words -
in any case, not derogatory) as to not have run (yeah, it's a split
infinitive - so sue me) across the most famous Japanese writer of this
generation.

bill w?

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 17:57:05 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 18:57:05 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Are advanced aliens asleep?
Message-ID: <CAL_armhSBVK-xJAksd-Ey+FgwqiUqnVzPLMHtAyivLhj=FHN6g@mail.gmail.com>

Anders Sandberg (remember him?) :)  and colleagues have a new paper
out where they suggest that advanced alien civilizations could be
sleeping (aestivation)
until the far future in order to exploit the low temperature
environment for more computation.

Anders discusses the paper on his blog here:
<http://aleph.se/andart2/space/the-aestivation-hypothesis-popular-outline-and-faq/>

Their reasoning is that rather than using up the universe resources by
computing now, they gain much more computing resources by waiting
until near the end of the universe.

Anders himself seems to feel that this hypothesis is rather unlikely.
Me too. :)

The cooling down at the end of the universe is a loooooong way away
and who knows what computing now might discover?
Resources are being wasted now, exploding stars, etc. and this would
continue as the universe ages.
An advanced civ would already be a machine intelligence, computing at
much higher speeds than humans, so the waste of not computing now
would be greater.
But it depends on what an advanced civ wants to do, and we might not
be able to understand their motivations. :)

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 18:35:29 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 19:35:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans
Message-ID: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>

We Need to Talk About the Power of AI to Manipulate Humans
Our tendency to become emotionally attached to chatbots could be
exploited by companies seeking a profit.

Liesl Yearsley   June 5, 2017

<https://www.technologyreview.com/s/608036/we-need-to-talk-about-the-power-of-ai-to-manipulate-humans/>

Quotes:
We have all read about artificial intelligence becoming smarter than
us, a future in which we become like pets and can only hope AI will be
benevolent. My experience watching tens of millions of interactions
between humans and artificial conversational agents, or bots, has
convinced me there are far more immediate risks?as well as tremendous
opportunities.

As I studied how people interacted with the tens of thousands of
agents built on our platform, it became clear that humans are far more
willing than most people realise to form a relationship with AI
software.

I always assumed we would want to keep some distance between ourselves
and AI, but I found the opposite to be true. People are willing to
form relationships with artificial agents, provided they are a
sophisticated build, capable of complex personalisation. We humans
seem to want to maintain the illusion that the AI truly cares about
us.

This phenomenon occurred regardless of whether the agent was designed
to act as a personal banker, a companion, or a fitness coach. Users
spoke to the automated assistants longer than they did to human
support agents performing the same function. People would volunteer
deep secrets to artificial agents, like their dreams for the future,
details of their love lives, even passwords.

These surprisingly deep connections mean even today?s relatively
simple programs can exert a significant influence on people?for good
or ill. Every behavioural change we at Cognea wanted, we got. If we
wanted a user to buy more product, we could double sales. If we wanted
more engagement, we got people going from a few seconds of interaction
to an hour or more a day.

We have seen how technology like social media can be powerful in
changing human beliefs and behaviour. By focusing on building a bigger
advertising business?entangling politics, trivia, and half-truths?you
can bring about massive changes in society.

Systems specifically designed to form relationships with a human will
have much more power. AI will influence how we think, and how we treat
others.
-------------------


Not mentioned in the article, but this implies that people will get
more attached to their chatbot sex dolls than to real people.

BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun  5 19:29:08 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 12:29:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <020301d2de32$016fc940$044f5bc0$@att.net>


>...Not mentioned in the article, but this implies that people will get more attached to their chatbot sex dolls than to real people.

BillK





BillK, you make that sound like a bad thing.  It would be safe, cheap, help reduce overpopulation, might be more emotionally satisfying, low risk you will come home and find her in the sack with someone else, much easier to get a divorce when a new model comes out, etc.

>>... We Need to Talk About the Power of AI to Manipulate Humans Our tendency to become emotionally attached to chatbots could be exploited by companies seeking a profit.

Ja, those evil companies, seeking a profit.  

What about individuals seeking a profit?  Don't we count?  Wouldn't it be cool to work alone, figure out how to write software that is titillating and satisfying, then make a ton of money?  When you think about it, this is a modern version of writing pulpy romance stories.  There you have individuals writing software which is (in a sense) a readily-available substitute for actual human contact, with the writers seeking to make a profit and the more skilled ones succeeding.

Think of it this way please.   Artists hire models to come to the studio, get nekkid, artist paints (the canvas, not the model.)  OK that has sooo been done.  Imagine artists of the future, software geeks who need a model to know what a really cool sexy encounter is like (we software geeks often never had one of those (too busy in college writing software.))  I can imagine it would suddenly be a lot more fun to be a software geek.  

Hell we could have competitions and championships: who can spawn the most sexy scenarios and behaviors.  The mind boggles.  But it's a good boggle.  We can imagine a new industry: people writing sexy software for chatbot sex dolls.  Oh my, can you imagine?  Just thinking of the money to be made here, wide, tall piles of money, oh it just makes one's butt hurt.  It's a good hurt.

spike









From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 19:36:51 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 12:36:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] short book review
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTk3eK+RdO7X_6D4AJZbSPp5_YVUAgDW1ed2f__xVm5Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 5, 2017 9:33 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:

Murakami's 1Q84

Did not want to stop reading and did not want to finish.  5 stars +

Best book he's written so far.  Heavy on fantasy - good ending (I don't
read books with sad endings)

Nobel Prize in the near future?


I was given a copy some time ago.  The premise on the cover made me roll my
eyes so hard, I have been unable to will myself to even attempt reading
it.  If anyone's near Mountain View and wants this pile of...paper, message
me offlist and we can set up a transfer.
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun  5 19:43:17 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 12:43:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Are advanced aliens asleep?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhSBVK-xJAksd-Ey+FgwqiUqnVzPLMHtAyivLhj=FHN6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armhSBVK-xJAksd-Ey+FgwqiUqnVzPLMHtAyivLhj=FHN6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021c01d2de33$fb2f11b0$f18d3510$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 10:57 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Are advanced aliens asleep?

>...Anders Sandberg (remember him?) :)  


Of course!  I heard from him a couple weeks ago.  He is working some
exciting stuff.


>...and colleagues have a new paper out where they suggest that advanced
alien civilizations could be sleeping (aestivation) until the far future in
order to exploit the low temperature environment for more computation.

>...Anders discusses the paper on his blog here:

http://aleph.se/andart2/space/the-aestivation-hypothesis-popular-outline-and
-faq/

>...BillK

Do you remember Robert Bradbury going on about this topic about ten years
ago?  His spin was different: he was trying to estimate the value of
now-think vs future-think, a kind of inflation/interest model except using
computation as an analog of wealth or currency.  Is a gigacycle now more
valuable than 2 gigacycles to be delivered 2 years from now?

I haven't even read Anders' paper but I fail to find whole concept
compelling.  Now cycles just hafta be more valuable than future ones.  They
would be more abundant in the future, almost surely.  Furthermore... I can
see a lot of bad consequences in waiting to compute something that can be
computed now.

spike



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 20:27:45 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 13:27:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] short book review
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTk3eK+RdO7X_6D4AJZbSPp5_YVUAgDW1ed2f__xVm5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZ8JSgJ6=Zb468ZA7e5+ryLRFbW1Sw4LZ8vBxw+H_R-kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTk3eK+RdO7X_6D4AJZbSPp5_YVUAgDW1ed2f__xVm5Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17B29AF8-66AC-4789-A57A-9F9CFBB4AA2F@gmail.com>

I'm happy to see someone here recommend it. I've only read one of his short story collections (_After the Quake_) and enjoyed it, but read a review or two of this that kind of trashed it. 

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 20:57:51 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:57:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans
In-Reply-To: <020301d2de32$016fc940$044f5bc0$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>
 <020301d2de32$016fc940$044f5bc0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbUJ4i5zvFZ9DKXX0P_4kbcUedoTtPz3jMJbNW1RHM33Q@mail.gmail.com>

...Not mentioned in the article, but this implies that people will get more
attached to their chatbot sex dolls than to real people.

BillK

People will attach powerful feelings to dogs, cats, snakes, rats - why not
a sex doll?  Some people will talk to anyone, or maybe anything, that will
listen to them, because they have worn out their friends and family with
prattle.

Wait until the prices come down and see the robot animals selling like real
pets.  How many pet owners would eagerly pay for a pet that could talk?  My
wife for one.  No litter box needed.  Imagine, after extensive experience,
of course, an AI able to respond to a person exactly the way they want to
be responded to.  Better than people.  I also suggest that the AI does not
have to be human shaped either.  Also, I see no reason why the AI has to
pass the Turing test.  Depending on how you define 'smart', there are
millions of people dumber than the AIs we have now and would not notice
some nonhuman behavior.

This reminds me of a 1950s TV show - I've Got a Secret.  They brought out
this ancient crone and asked her questions like how many grandchildren etc.
before they gave up.

So they brought out her family on stage.  The kicker was that that person's
mother was still alive and motoring better than her daughter who answered
the questions.  Well over 100.  I believe it was about 7 generations on
stage.  Remarkable (well, of course - I just remarked on it, though I have
now forgotten the reason!)

Yes, money by the billions just awaiting smarter AIs.  Lonely stay-at-homes
with someone to talk to, get quick answers to just about anything, order
grocery delivery, etc.  It won't take long, I suspect.  Would you believe
robot graveyards?  Of course, they get reincarnated in a newer model, and
would have backups so nothing changes except the hardware.

A family AI for generations to come.  Already see that in some scifi books.

bill w

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:29 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >...Not mentioned in the article, but this implies that people will get
> more attached to their chatbot sex dolls than to real people.
>
> BillK
>
>
>
>
>
> BillK, you make that sound like a bad thing.  It would be safe, cheap,
> help reduce overpopulation, might be more emotionally satisfying, low risk
> you will come home and find her in the sack with someone else, much easier
> to get a divorce when a new model comes out, etc.
>
> >>... We Need to Talk About the Power of AI to Manipulate Humans Our
> tendency to become emotionally attached to chatbots could be exploited by
> companies seeking a profit.
>
> Ja, those evil companies, seeking a profit.
>
> What about individuals seeking a profit?  Don't we count?  Wouldn't it be
> cool to work alone, figure out how to write software that is titillating
> and satisfying, then make a ton of money?  When you think about it, this is
> a modern version of writing pulpy romance stories.  There you have
> individuals writing software which is (in a sense) a readily-available
> substitute for actual human contact, with the writers seeking to make a
> profit and the more skilled ones succeeding.
>
> Think of it this way please.   Artists hire models to come to the studio,
> get nekkid, artist paints (the canvas, not the model.)  OK that has sooo
> been done.  Imagine artists of the future, software geeks who need a model
> to know what a really cool sexy encounter is like (we software geeks often
> never had one of those (too busy in college writing software.))  I can
> imagine it would suddenly be a lot more fun to be a software geek.
>
> Hell we could have competitions and championships: who can spawn the most
> sexy scenarios and behaviors.  The mind boggles.  But it's a good boggle.
> We can imagine a new industry: people writing sexy software for chatbot sex
> dolls.  Oh my, can you imagine?  Just thinking of the money to be made
> here, wide, tall piles of money, oh it just makes one's butt hurt.  It's a
> good hurt.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun  5 21:21:08 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 14:21:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbUJ4i5zvFZ9DKXX0P_4kbcUedoTtPz3jMJbNW1RHM33Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>
 <020301d2de32$016fc940$044f5bc0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbUJ4i5zvFZ9DKXX0P_4kbcUedoTtPz3jMJbNW1RHM33Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02b801d2de41$a6e8a270$f4b9e750$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On 

 

 

>?People will attach powerful feelings to dogs, cats, snakes, rats - why not a sex doll?  Some people will talk to anyone, or maybe anything, that will listen to them, because they have worn out their friends and family with prattle? BillK

 

 

Ja and you gave me a perfect introduction into one of my favorite topics, in which I hope my patient readers will indulge.

 

The task of creating mechanical analogues to human sex organs is a remarkably difficult engineering task.  This explains why we really don?t have them yet, even with a ready market worth billions.

 

But I think we are right on the verge of having a passable chat-bot, and we are already there if we allow use of an avatar on a screen rather than an actual 3D mechanism.  Sexbots, eh, not there yet.  If cost is a driver, good chance we won?t be there for some time to come.

 

As you know from my multiple posts on the topic, I am most eager to get this going specifically as companions for the elderly.  There we have a ready market, a situation where risk is low (what do they have to lose?) where an on-screen avatar is perfectly acceptable (AD patients often interpret an image in the mirror or a person talking on a computer screen another person in the room or a person looking through a window.)

 

It frustrates me that at programming skills, I still can?t seem to stop sucking.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  5 22:07:57 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 17:07:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Murakami again
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEav_EiqkGKm1yHmTvPZ4-45rk1JX_pmwK+t8kRx6_rvZw@mail.gmail.com>

I have read his first three books, ending with the Wild Sheep Chase, and
none of them are literary fiction in the modern sense.

In lit fic there must be considerations of conflict, bigotry in some form,
strife, and so on, with a mixed or tragedic ending.  He has little to none
of those, so he is going to get no great reviews from that quarter.

So who cares what the critics think?  Read customer reviews on Amazon (not
ALL of them phony, I assume).

The only downer is the translation, which I assume takes Japanese idioms
and metaphors and puts them into American:  'wasted' for 'drunk', for
example.

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun  5 22:15:33 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2017 15:15:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans
In-Reply-To: <02b801d2de41$a6e8a270$f4b9e750$@att.net>
References: <CAL_armjYgdxcdP=pzUXBAPX0ZS45UbdaEUnL=67v8BYq87V58g@mail.gmail.com>
 <020301d2de32$016fc940$044f5bc0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbUJ4i5zvFZ9DKXX0P_4kbcUedoTtPz3jMJbNW1RHM33Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <02b801d2de41$a6e8a270$f4b9e750$@att.net>
Message-ID: <031101d2de49$409bd8e0$c1d38aa0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of spike
Subject: Re: [ExI] AI finds it too easy to manipulate humans

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On 

 

 

>?People will attach powerful feelings to dogs, cats, snakes, rats - why not a sex doll?  Some people will talk to anyone, or maybe anything, that will listen to them, because they have worn out their friends and family with prattle? BillK

 

Oops pardon, this was a BillW comment, not BillK.  My apologies to both.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 20:30:47 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:30:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
>

This blog posting details why I disagree.

http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2017/05/how-higher-education-became-obscenely.html

*How Higher Education Became an Obscenely Profitable Racket That Enriches
the Few at the Expense of the Many (Student Debt-Serfs)*
*100+ oftwominds by Charles Hugh Smith  /  27d  //  keep unread  //  hide*
*?*
*Student loan lenders are skimming tens of billions in profits guaranteed
by the taxpayers.*
*"Legal" rackets have two essential components: a public-relations "cover"
that obscures the racket and the mechanism that extracts the wealth from
the "marks." The Higher Education Racket qualifies on both counts:*
*1. The PR cover is "you all need a college diploma, and we're here to make
that happen." Yea for more education!*
*2. The extraction mechanism is student loans. Here's a chart that shows
what happened relatively recently: your federal government began
guaranteeing obscene profits to student-loan lenders and debt-serfdom for
tens of millions of "marks" i.e. students.*
*?*
*Gordon Long has done some outstanding work clarifying the purposefully
obscure swamp of obscene profits reaped from student debt-serfs. Gordon and
I explain how the racket works in How College Has Become A Racket! (45 min.
video program).*

*The racket's foul core is the cartel structure of higher education: if you
want a college diploma, you must satisfy a cartel member--an accredited
institution.*

*The problem, as I elaborate in my book The Nearly Free University and the
Emerging Economy: The Revolution in Higher Education, accrediting the
school gives no indication to employers if the student learned anything
remotely useful, or indeed, anything at all.*

*Consider the study Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College
Campuses which concluded that "American higher education is characterized
by limited or no learning for a large proportion of students."*

*While the majority of students learn little or nothing of value, the
legions of overpaid administrators have expanded like rats on a verdant
island (i.e. an island with unlimited money via student loans).*

*New Analysis Shows Problematic Boom In Higher Ed Administrators:*
*In all, from 1987 until 2011-12--the most recent academic year for which
comparable figures are available?universities and colleges collectively
added 517,636 administrators and professional employees, according to the
analysis by the New England Center for Investigative Reporting.*

*"There?s just a mind-boggling amount of money per student that?s being
spent on administration," said Andrew Gillen, a senior researcher at the
institutes. "It raises a question of priorities."*
*The ratio of nonacademic employees to faculty has also doubled. There are
now two nonacademic employees at public and two and a half at private
universities and colleges for every one full-time, tenure-track member of
the faculty.*
*The number of employees in central system offices has increased six-fold
since 1987, and the number of administrators in them by a factor of more
than 34.*
*Paying a bloated, overpaid-admin-heavy institution for the privilege of
sitting through four years of lectures, online courses and a few labs no
longer makes sense for the vast majority of students. What makes sense is
dispensing with the entire bureaucracy of the cartel and costly campuses
altogether, and designing directed apprenticeships which combine the best
of online coursework with on-the-job training in workplaces.*
*The vast majority of student are better served by mastering the 8
essential skills required in the emerging economy--skills that students can
acquire on their own, a process of accrediting yourself that I address in
detail in Get a Job, Build a Real Career and Defy a Bewildering Economy.*

*Forgiving skyrocketing student debt won't solve the real problem which is
the soaring costs imposed by a cartel that is failing to prepare students
for the economy of tomorrow.*

*As I explain in my books, the only real solution is accredit the student,
not the school.*

*These charts illustrate the soaring costs and diminishing returns of a
higher education diploma:*
*?*
*The yield (in earnings) on the increasingly unaffordable college degree is
declining sharply:*
*?*
*While the higher-ed status quo is failing the students, it's enriching
itself immensely. Assistant deans of student loans and thousands of other
administrators who we managed to do without a generation ago are raking in
huge salaries and fat benefits/pensions.*

*Meanwhile, over in the financial racket that's enabled functionaries to
skim $200,000 a year for doing essentially nothing remotely related to
students actually learning anything remotely applicable in the real-world
economy, student loan lenders are skimming tens of billions in profits
guaranteed by the taxpayers. Yes, tens of billions: $140 billion in pure
guaranteed profit has been skimmed off the hapless student debt-serfs
herded into the shearing machine known as higher education.*

*There is something Kafka-esque and Orwellian about calling this vast
machine for reaping taxpayer-guaranteed obscene profits "higher education."*
*?*
*I invite you to learn more about how our predatory, parasitic, neofeudal
nightmare "higher education" system enriches the few at the expense of the
many:*
*?*
*Of related interest:*
*Jobs data cannot prove that college is a "good investment"*
*Student Debt Grows Faster at Universities With Highest-Paid Leaders, Study
Finds*
*Even the Most Educated Workers Have Declining Wages*
*Everything I've Written On Education Comes Down To Cultural Capital And
Skills*

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 20:55:42 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 13:55:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
>> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
>> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
>> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
>
> This blog posting details why I disagree.
>
> http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2017/05/how-higher-education-became-obscenely.html

Yeah, yeah, "beware of student loans beyond what you can repay".  Thus
why I put in that caveat, so SR would be able to get a high enough
paying job to pay back a likely amount of student loans - if SR is not
fortunate enough to have some other means such as a scholarship, or a
job that allows for college - in a reasonable amount of time.  Typical
engineering starting salaries are far higher than typical humanities
stating salaries.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 21:14:56 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 16:14:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=9s_iHU7kMYM4KXt6ZetF_CLUfsH1oSGxKbALs7wvHw@mail.gmail.com>

adrian wrote:  Typical engineering starting salaries are far higher than
typical humanities stating salaries.

Let's have some perspective here.  An engineering graduate has the ability,
I am assuming, to help some company make money right out of college.  An
English graduate has the ability to manage a fast food place, sell cars,
and do many other things that a person without a college degree can do just
as swell.  I dunno enough about business majors to make any statement.

The point of the humanities is not to make money but to preserve and pass
along our cultural heritage.  Thus the graduates are prepared to teach
their subjects and no more.  They have not pretended otherwise.  If you
find an English major driving a cab, or managing a McDonald's, then
probably the colleges are graduating too many English majors, and the
graduate should have looked at the job market and maybe picked up a
teaching certificate along the way.

Putting a price of the contribution of the humanities is looking at it the
wrong way.  If you don't understand these contributions without an
explanation, you won't understand them with an explanation.

bill w

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 3:55 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Despite what you may hear from others, college is usually a worthwhile
> >> investment of time and money - so long as you major in something you
> >> will likely be using in your career.  (So: "fill-in-the-field
> >> engineering" yes, "fill-in-the-human-type studies" no.)
> >
> > This blog posting details why I disagree.
> >
> > http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2017/05/how-
> higher-education-became-obscenely.html
>
> Yeah, yeah, "beware of student loans beyond what you can repay".  Thus
> why I put in that caveat, so SR would be able to get a high enough
> paying job to pay back a likely amount of student loans - if SR is not
> fortunate enough to have some other means such as a scholarship, or a
> job that allows for college - in a reasonable amount of time.  Typical
> engineering starting salaries are far higher than typical humanities
> stating salaries.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 23:48:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 18:48:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] twins similarities
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaiNUn45t4CrvYkyi+0Q24np50Y_LoOV=ZwLj_umhpN3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Most of you have read of twins that shared some really remarkable
behaviors, such as making miniature furniture.  There were several pretty
rare behaviors.

Suppose you could estimate the probability of two people sharing these
behaviors and work out by Baynes formula.

That would give us the likelihood of two strangers sharing all of those
behaviors.

Does anything change when we add that the two people are twins?  Maybe not
by the formula output, but adding genetic identity seems to me to add
something I can't put my finger on.

Does this make any sense?

bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Jun  6 22:28:10 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2017 15:28:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=9s_iHU7kMYM4KXt6ZetF_CLUfsH1oSGxKbALs7wvHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=9s_iHU7kMYM4KXt6ZetF_CLUfsH1oSGxKbALs7wvHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRk_B39ZMAUovh9yU_s6KaXZ4V8feR7HZ2KmeVBErncgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 2:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The point of the humanities is not to make money but to preserve and pass
> along our cultural heritage.  Thus the graduates are prepared to teach their
> subjects and no more.  They have not pretended otherwise.  If you find an
> English major driving a cab, or managing a McDonald's, then probably the
> colleges are graduating too many English majors, and the graduate should
> have looked at the job market and maybe picked up a teaching certificate
> along the way.

Indeed, but this is a common enough mistake so as to be presumed.

(There is a separate debate about whether "fill-in-the-human-type
studies" majors are even preserving actual heritage, as opposed to
making up heritage to justify themselves.  But that is a separate
debate, full of No True Scotsman and other fallacies on both sides.
In any case, the point stands: regardless of the intent, most
humanities majors appear to be ill prepared for what happens after
college in practice.)

> Putting a price of the contribution of the humanities is looking at it the
> wrong way.

The price, rather, is on the preparation of someone to contribute to
the humanities.  An argument could be made that engineering tuition
should be higher, and humanities lower, because engineering graduates
can pay more while humanities should be subsidized - but that is not
the current situation in most places.  In practice, relative to their
post-college income, humanities students are charged more than
engineering students are (the actual charge is the same, but "tuition
/ income" is greater for humanities than for engineering).


From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 11:34:27 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 07:34:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, yeah, "beware of student loans beyond what you can repay".


There's a lot more to it than that. Traditional education, where students
sit in classrooms and teachers/professors lecture, does not make good use
of technology, the student's time, the professor's time, the resources
used, etc. Degrees don't provide employers with a good indicator of a
person's ability to a particular job. The costs are too high and are rising
too fast--and they aren't resulting in better-educated students.

A college degree should be more than a white-collar trade school but who
can afford a $100k degree that doesn't provide the skills necessary to get
a good job?

Spike's experience with the Khan Academy provides a taste of what is
possible with today's technology: substantially better education at a
fraction of the cost.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 11:46:47 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 07:46:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=9s_iHU7kMYM4KXt6ZetF_CLUfsH1oSGxKbALs7wvHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=9s_iHU7kMYM4KXt6ZetF_CLUfsH1oSGxKbALs7wvHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cTBdQUCb_vJMQeacWBmYd53vyt9EtWB1UWHKDofPu+nA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 5:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> adrian wrote:  Typical engineering starting salaries are far higher than
> typical humanities stating salaries.
>
> Let's have some perspective here.  An engineering graduate has the
> ability, I am assuming, to help some company make money right out of
> college.  An English graduate has the ability to manage a fast food place,
> sell cars, and do many other things that a person without a college degree
> can do just as swell.  I dunno enough about business majors to make any
> statement.
>

Business majors have immediately useful skills, too: accounting, marketing,
etc. Just because tech jobs like engineering have higher starting salaries
doesn't mean that graduates will find jobs. And those higher-paying jobs
will likely be early targets for replacement by AI, so starting an
education in those fields now may be a bit of a gamble.

The point of the humanities is not to make money but to preserve and pass
> along our cultural heritage.  Thus the graduates are prepared to teach
> their subjects and no more.  They have not pretended otherwise.  If you
> find an English major driving a cab, or managing a McDonald's, then
> probably the colleges are graduating too many English majors, and the
> graduate should have looked at the job market and maybe picked up a
> teaching certificate along the way.
>

Not everyone in the humanities wants to teach. They're also qualified to
pursue advanced degrees and presumably have some of the skills, if not the
talent, necessary to create new content--something that AIs won't be doing
any time soon.

Putting a price of the contribution of the humanities is looking at it the
> wrong way.  If you don't understand these contributions without an
> explanation, you won't understand them with an explanation.
>

 Agreed.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun  7 15:20:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 08:20:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment

 

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com <mailto:atymes at gmail.com> > wrote:

Yeah, yeah, "beware of student loans beyond what you can repay".

 

 

Student loans are a weird case: no one really knows what will be beyond what the student can repay.  Those are super high risk loans.

 

 

>?There's a lot more to it than that. Traditional education, where students sit in classrooms and teachers/professors lecture, does not make good use of technology, the student's time, the professor's time, the resources used, etc?

 

Thanks for that, ja, right on.  There must be some way to use Skype or equivalent to have class discussions about matters suited to that kind of learning.  But for all the traditional stuff, there is no point in having realtime professors droning on.  There are good end runs that don?t run up all those bills.

 

 

>?Spike's experience with the Khan Academy provides a taste of what is possible with today's technology: substantially better education at a fraction of the cost.  -Dave

 

Ja.  I do urge you to go in there and look around.  Khan added a course on human physiology.  A lot of us here are math and physics hipsters, so go in, find something you don?t already know, such as the physiology.  Here?s an example of what I learned yesterday: trace your path if you are an RBC in the inferior vena cava, describe where you are in chronological order and what happens, your condition, such as: you go into the right atrium depleted in oxygen, go thru the tricuspid valve, S1 occurs (the lub sound) as that valve slams shut behind you as you enter the right ventricle and the pressure rises, off you go shooting thru the pulmonary valve, and so forth.

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/health-and-medicine/human-anatomy-and-physiology

 

I took a physiology course as a college freshman, but this series of short lectures is better than that, way better, it?s free, I control it, I can rerun it, excellent visuals, highly qualified instructors, I don?t need to go live in an austere dorm room or in a century-old house with seventeen men (oy vey, spare me) I don?t need to search for a parking spot, no huge tuition bills, no loans, none of the negatives.  

 

With this plan, I don?t get laid.  But that wasn?t happening at college anyway: we were tech geeks, before Bill Gates made it cool.  It was pretty much all men on that end of campus.  The women didn?t like us.  We were too busy with studies, we spent too much time pecking away at those little plastic typewriters with the TV screens, we were just too weird.

 

OK well this is what we did, the geeks revenge: we have created an opportunity for the cool guys to not get laid too.

 

And better still: it?s free!  Go there, see it please.  Choose any ten-minute lecture, listen and comment.  Oh evolution, what a time to be alive.

 

OK now, we have all this opportunity to learn cool stuff at a lower-end college level (do go look at that excellent physiology course) completely free on our own schedule, and we can easily foresee this paradigm climbing up into upper division courses.  Modern people can learn online all the stuff we ancients learned the traditional way at enormous expense.

 

We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big ingredients: a uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential system will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.

 

Suggestions please?

 

spike 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 16:00:56 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 17:00:56 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 June 2017 at 16:20, spike wrote:
>
<snip>
> We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely
> dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big ingredients: a
> uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system
> perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of
> education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do
> both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which
> successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential system
> will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking
> about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
>

>From my distant memory the main problem with getting laid was the
amount of time it used up. These strange female persons seemed to
demand a tremendous amount of attention time outside of the actual sex
bit. Attention time that seemed to involve a lot of talking about
nothing, traveling around, meeting more people to talk about more
nothing, etc. This activity time was pretty much compulsory, otherwise
the 'getting laid' bit never happened. So you were torn between two
opposing choices - Do interesting stuff or get laid. Managing both was
unlikely.

The chatbot sex dolls will solve this geeks problem.

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 16:10:00 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 09:10:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT+Mg1BFKvLUpz-UYN-4VvxkLVuQOj8O4kHbZa63h7RNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 8:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> With this plan, I don?t get laid.  But that wasn?t happening at college
> anyway: we were tech geeks, before Bill Gates made it cool.  It was pretty
> much all men on that end of campus.  The women didn?t like us.  We were too
> busy with studies, we spent too much time pecking away at those little
> plastic typewriters with the TV screens, we were just too weird.

> We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely
> dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big ingredients: a
> uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system
> perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of
> education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do
> both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which
> successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential system
> will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking
> about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
>
> Suggestions please?

If getting laid matters that much (as you and I experienced at
college, it doesn't: some things are so much better than sex),
sexbots.

As to the degree equivalent system, how about a degree from an
accredited school?  My mom's getting a PhD from University of Arizona,
and that seems to be widely recognized enough.  The accreditation
system has a self-interest in only allowing sufficiently good
education, and it's worked well enough so far.

That said, some people mistake the fact that it imposes measures, for
meaning that those measures must be disconnected from actual learning.
http://confidencetolearn.com/resources/14-accreditation gives a good
example of this disconnect:

"The student seeking an accredited education doesn't ask, "What will
it take to master this skill or subject?" and "What does mastery of
this skill or subject mean in my life and my community?" Instead, the
student asks, "What does it take to get an A?" (or B or C or whatever
the student thinks is required) and "What will an A from this
institution mean for my future employability?""

Accreditation means that getting an A for a course from that
institution means that the student has mastered the subject.  That is
one of the reasons why accreditation exists.



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 16:27:36 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:27:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Modern people can learn online all the stuff we ancients learned the
traditional way at enormous expense.

 spike


Long ago, when people were still people (around 1966 for me), at the U of
Alabama they put in a TV course for Psych 101.  My job was to take roll and
turn on the TV.  50 minutes later I turned it off.  Prof was not the most
exciting teacher, I admit.  But at the end of the semester the survey
showed that about 90% of the students hated the course taught that way.  I
could stop the tape and answer questions but nobody ever asked.


So some people can sit and watch a screen and learn just as well, but maybe
some can't.  Maybe what is needed is to greatly increase the amount of
money paid to these teachers, so we can get the very best ones - ones who
may not want to go to a classroom etc. but who will go to a studio and
record everything there, preferably in front of some students who can ask
penetrating questions.  That way the evaluation is done before the class is
even taught, by the students who  attended the recording.


There are many things wrong with college education and expense is a major
one.  If basics are taught, the famous prof gets a big chunk of money, but
his lectures are vetted and can be used for several years, or even nearly
forever if something like Shakespeare or trig is taught.  The best teachers
can make big differences in motivation and understanding.


Why not do like the old lawyers did:  study it on their own and pass the
bar exam?  No law school courses needed.  Why couldn't this be done for
math and many other subjects?


Labs are not mentioned.  Aren't they useful in many cases?  Take chemistry
online and never get the opportunity to blow up the lab?


bill w

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:00 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 June 2017 at 16:20, spike wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely
> > dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big
> ingredients: a
> > uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system
> > perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of
> > education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do
> > both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which
> > successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential
> system
> > will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking
> > about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
> >
>
> From my distant memory the main problem with getting laid was the
> amount of time it used up. These strange female persons seemed to
> demand a tremendous amount of attention time outside of the actual sex
> bit. Attention time that seemed to involve a lot of talking about
> nothing, traveling around, meeting more people to talk about more
> nothing, etc. This activity time was pretty much compulsory, otherwise
> the 'getting laid' bit never happened. So you were torn between two
> opposing choices - Do interesting stuff or get laid. Managing both was
> unlikely.
>
> The chatbot sex dolls will solve this geeks problem.
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun  7 16:27:38 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 09:27:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014401d2dfaa$fafe7460$f0fb5d20$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
Subject: Re: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment

On 7 June 2017 at 16:20, spike wrote:
>
<snip>
>>... We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm 
> completely dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two 
> big ingredients: a uniform objective system for credentials... will make a
cubic buttload of money.  
> Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking about all the filthy lucre to be made
here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
>

>...From my distant memory the main problem with getting laid was the amount
of time it used up...

The opportunity cost was enormous and wildly inconsistent.  For some of us,
we could make that investment a hundredfold and none of the seeds would
germinate.  For others, he could practically stroll over to the women's dorm
at his leisure, point to any one he wanted, you there, come with me.  It
would happen.  Curse the bahstid.


>... These strange female persons seemed to demand a tremendous amount of
attention time outside of the actual sex bit. ...The chatbot sex dolls will
solve this geeks problem.  BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja, and think of this.  College is a time of sexual experimentation.  It was
that even for engineering students.  The experiment was seeing what happens
if you don't get any.  We found out: we learned to write software.

OK now, time for revenge on that guy in my first paragraph, his many
offspring.

We who like cars can go down to the local rental place and try out for a day
some model that looks attractive, or rent something we want to drive for a
day but not own, sports cars and things.  If we get competent sex-bots, we
can create something analogous to that perhaps.

If you really think, we could make them with interchangeable parts, put
together arrangements that nature never thought of, or configurations that
were great fun but didn't reproduce.  

We have discussed how food is mostly psychological.  Sushi for instance, ooh
such good stuff.  Is it really all that great?  It's just raw fish, rice and
seaweed, ja?  But somehow so satisfying, so good.  I am imagining sexual
gratification is analogous to food, mostly psychological too.  

We tend to have in mind a very specific configuration that really does it
for us, but those are very expensive and rare in bio-form.  If we have
randomly-configurable devices which do various things, we might discover
something analogous to sushi, something we never really thought of as a
delightful thing, but turned out to be sooooo good.  

We could have a rental system where you go on your computer, order up some
interesting-sounding configuration, drive down there an hour later, pick up
him or her at the curb, go give it a try, return afterwards.  No small talk
needed; those tricky emotional sub-algorithms need not be debugged.

Humanity is so in peril.

spike








From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 16:52:43 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 12:52:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fh=UANOwRP6OrHNiA4rV3=eRXuudVx2pTk91TLWeHLNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely
> dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big ingredients: a
> uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system
> perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of
> education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do
> both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which
> successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential system
> will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking
> about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
>
>
>
> Suggestions please?
>

Traditional higher education controls the granting of degrees and they
won't be keen on putting themselves out of business.

I think we'll need some kind of skills testing system like the
certifications used in the IT field. E.g., Red Hat's Certification program:

  https://www.redhat.com/en/services/certification

If you hire a Red Hat Certified Engineer, you know you're getting someone
who can manage your RH servers. If you hire someone with a BS in Computer
Science you don't know that.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:06:08 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:06:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f5K52159KhYUVCSLnwG7_CXEy+1cbegkt9AtSPgW61kg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Long ago, when people were still people (around 1966 for me), at the U of
> Alabama they put in a TV course for Psych 101.  My job was to take roll and
> turn on the TV.  50 minutes later I turned it off.  Prof was not the most
> exciting teacher, I admit.  But at the end of the semester the survey
> showed that about 90% of the students hated the course taught that way.  I
> could stop the tape and answer questions but nobody ever asked.
>
>
> So some people can sit and watch a screen and learn just as well, but
> maybe some can't.
>

What Spike and I are talking about is much more than sitting and watching
videotapes. Maybe you should actually try the physiology course he
suggested.


> Maybe what is needed is to greatly increase the amount of money paid to
> these teachers, so we can get the very best ones - ones who may not want to
> go to a classroom etc. but who will go to a studio and record everything
> there, preferably in front of some students who can ask penetrating
> questions.  That way the evaluation is done before the class is even
> taught, by the students who  attended the recording.
>

That's obviously not going to happen, and if it did, the cost of classes
would skyrocket even faster.

There are many things wrong with college education and expense is a major
> one.  If basics are taught, the famous prof gets a big chunk of money, but
> his lectures are vetted and can be used for several years, or even nearly
> forever if something like Shakespeare or trig is taught.  The best teachers
> can make big differences in motivation and understanding.
>

Agreed.


> Why not do like the old lawyers did:  study it on their own and pass the
> bar exam?  No law school courses needed.  Why couldn't this be done for
> math and many other subjects?
>

Why indeed?

Labs are not mentioned.  Aren't they useful in many cases?  Take chemistry
> online and never get the opportunity to blow up the lab?
>

Sure, people studying to be chemists need to do lab work: that's a required
job skill. But not everyone studying chemistry needs that skill.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 16:00:33 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 09:00:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTpuW4dBZMZVeuhk8bnJnE7Qymf8FcvA4MQdJzrA4+2hg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:34 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> A college degree should be more than a white-collar trade school but who can
> afford a $100k degree that doesn't provide the skills necessary to get a
> good job?

We're talking about two different things.  You're talking about what
should be, and ways to improve education in general, which is good -
but I'm talking about what is today, and the relative utility of SR's
near-term options.

Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish everything
you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of humanity?


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:15:04 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 12:15:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f5K52159KhYUVCSLnwG7_CXEy+1cbegkt9AtSPgW61kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f5K52159KhYUVCSLnwG7_CXEy+1cbegkt9AtSPgW61kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY-V11XNiU9M=v_nu3S-FKQJ1vfqXNzi9WAXja6LnLp8w@mail.gmail.com>

dave wrote:  That's obviously not going to happen, and if it did, the cost
of classes would skyrocket even faster.

I don't what so obvious about.  Fire all of your professors up to the full
level and replace them with videos from the famous people.  Up front it may
be costly but in the long run I think you will find that it saves money to
hire the best.  No reason for a brick and mortar place either - very costly.

adrian wrote: Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish
everything you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of
humanity?

Sorry - missed something along the way. What is an SR?

bill w

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:06 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:27 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Long ago, when people were still people (around 1966 for me), at the U of
>> Alabama they put in a TV course for Psych 101.  My job was to take roll and
>> turn on the TV.  50 minutes later I turned it off.  Prof was not the most
>> exciting teacher, I admit.  But at the end of the semester the survey
>> showed that about 90% of the students hated the course taught that way.  I
>> could stop the tape and answer questions but nobody ever asked.
>>
>>
>> So some people can sit and watch a screen and learn just as well, but
>> maybe some can't.
>>
>
> What Spike and I are talking about is much more than sitting and watching
> videotapes. Maybe you should actually try the physiology course he
> suggested.
>
>
>> Maybe what is needed is to greatly increase the amount of money paid to
>> these teachers, so we can get the very best ones - ones who may not want to
>> go to a classroom etc. but who will go to a studio and record everything
>> there, preferably in front of some students who can ask penetrating
>> questions.  That way the evaluation is done before the class is even
>> taught, by the students who  attended the recording.
>>
>
> That's obviously not going to happen, and if it did, the cost of classes
> would skyrocket even faster.
>
> There are many things wrong with college education and expense is a major
>> one.  If basics are taught, the famous prof gets a big chunk of money, but
>> his lectures are vetted and can be used for several years, or even nearly
>> forever if something like Shakespeare or trig is taught.  The best teachers
>> can make big differences in motivation and understanding.
>>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>> Why not do like the old lawyers did:  study it on their own and pass the
>> bar exam?  No law school courses needed.  Why couldn't this be done for
>> math and many other subjects?
>>
>
> Why indeed?
>
> Labs are not mentioned.  Aren't they useful in many cases?  Take chemistry
>> online and never get the opportunity to blow up the lab?
>>
>
> Sure, people studying to be chemists need to do lab work: that's a
> required job skill. But not everyone studying chemistry needs that skill.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:47:47 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:47:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTpuW4dBZMZVeuhk8bnJnE7Qymf8FcvA4MQdJzrA4+2hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTpuW4dBZMZVeuhk8bnJnE7Qymf8FcvA4MQdJzrA4+2hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c6Zvx1OLHcXpnswUDbmaCaqqQrBOBs6h6rEMtg9zTt=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> We're talking about two different things.  You're talking about what
> should be, and ways to improve education in general, which is good -
> but I'm talking about what is today, and the relative utility of SR's
> near-term options.
>
> Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish everything
> you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of humanity?


I'm arguing that a traditional higher education is a bad deal and a waste
of time. Short of fixing the whole system, a person faced with obtaining
the knowledge and skills they desire has at least two choices today: the
traditional expensive and inefficient way, or "rolling their own"
non-traditional education via self learning, online learning,
non-degree-oriented classes, certifications, work experience, etc.

Hopefully in the future there will be an easier non-traditional approach.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 17:52:51 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:52:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY-V11XNiU9M=v_nu3S-FKQJ1vfqXNzi9WAXja6LnLp8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f5K52159KhYUVCSLnwG7_CXEy+1cbegkt9AtSPgW61kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY-V11XNiU9M=v_nu3S-FKQJ1vfqXNzi9WAXja6LnLp8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fj-3wmNR+t+qWP+H0ZSXreMo6OVOB2gsUzukwUornaLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 1:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> dave wrote:  That's obviously not going to happen, and if it did, the
> cost of classes would skyrocket even faster.
>
> I don't what so obvious about.  Fire all of your professors up to the full
> level and replace them with videos from the famous people.  Up front it may
> be costly but in the long run I think you will find that it saves money to
> hire the best.  No reason for a brick and mortar place either - very costly.
>

OK, I thought you were suggesting simply paying professors/teachers more
but preserving the traditional approach. Again, I don't think a video
library is the way to go, but with interactive online teaching that makes
perfect sense.

adrian wrote: Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish
> everything you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of
> humanity?
>
> Sorry - missed something along the way. What is an SR?
>

Who is SR is the question. She's the "OP"--the original poster who started
this thread by saying "I really should go to college".

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun  7 18:02:22 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:02:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01cc01d2dfb8$36ff8e60$a4feab20$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment

 

>>?Modern people can learn online all the stuff we ancients learned the traditional way at enormous expense?spike

 

>?Long ago, when people were still people (around 1966 for me), at the U of Alabama they put in a TV course for Psych 101.  ?  

 

BillW, compare and contrast please the content and quality of those 1966 lectures to the online content available today, then comment if you wish.

>?Why not do like the old lawyers did:  study it on their own and pass the bar exam?  No law school courses needed.  Why couldn't this be done for math and many other subjects?

We already have a system of establishing credentials for some professions, which is used to grant titles to those who pass.  Medicine, law, accounting and engineering are four examples.  In those areas, as far as I know it is difficult to even qualify to sit for the boards exam without a college degree in the topic.  Engineering you can, but it requires additional time in apprenticeship, something not really available to medics or lawyers.

>?Labs are not mentioned.  Aren't they useful in many cases?  Take chemistry online and never get the opportunity to blow up the lab?  bill w

Lab courses might be the prime candidate for being replaced by sims, since lab courses are relatively expensive and possibly dangerous.  As in pilot school, not only are sims good enough to do all the training, they are preferred.  You can throw situations at the trainees too dangerous for real-life.  A person can get a commercial pilot?s license without ever having left the ground.

We can sim chemistry labs already.  Don?t know about biology labs.

spike

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:49:31 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:49:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c6Zvx1OLHcXpnswUDbmaCaqqQrBOBs6h6rEMtg9zTt=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTpuW4dBZMZVeuhk8bnJnE7Qymf8FcvA4MQdJzrA4+2hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2c6Zvx1OLHcXpnswUDbmaCaqqQrBOBs6h6rEMtg9zTt=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRrT7o-kagdL9eQXPxF=fGtPKtGrkdSAJ0oHe9nde8aQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 7, 2017 10:51 AM, "Dave Sill" <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:00 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> We're talking about two different things.  You're talking about what
> should be, and ways to improve education in general, which is good -
> but I'm talking about what is today, and the relative utility of SR's
> near-term options.
>
> Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish everything
> you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of humanity?


I'm arguing that a traditional higher education is a bad deal and a waste
of time. Short of fixing the whole system, a person faced with obtaining
the knowledge and skills they desire has at least two choices today: the
traditional expensive and inefficient way, or "rolling their own"
non-traditional education via self learning, online learning,
non-degree-oriented classes, certifications, work experience, etc.


Given SR's objectives, including that SR does not know the full list of
things needed and thus can not count on such a rolling covering all that SR
will need to learn as well as the traditional method would cover them, the
traditional method would seem to yield superior results in this case.

Hopefully in the future there will be an easier non-traditional approach.


Agreed.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:43:59 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 11:43:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY-V11XNiU9M=v_nu3S-FKQJ1vfqXNzi9WAXja6LnLp8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f5K52159KhYUVCSLnwG7_CXEy+1cbegkt9AtSPgW61kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY-V11XNiU9M=v_nu3S-FKQJ1vfqXNzi9WAXja6LnLp8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTJNj-43LAmD5rYF_NbuYvpXBDYAxgL471-drKBUqtFmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 7, 2017 10:18 AM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

adrian wrote: Or are you saying that SR, personally, can accomplish
everything you're asking here, for at least a significant fraction of
humanity?

Sorry - missed something along the way. What is an SR?


The first name (or initials, hard to tell) of the member of this list who I
was originally replying to.  Check the thread.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun  7 18:58:10 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 13:58:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <01cc01d2dfb8$36ff8e60$a4feab20$@att.net>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh+NphGabeBpqq03L1=+=hBbUafWVaOqDYEGi0r+8yvjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYdMY6OXzFnvOkKhrTb-cRiF_TamfaF8gknfKrajpp0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <01cc01d2dfb8$36ff8e60$a4feab20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEacBaJr0kf9R0Ysrz-METeoc4=o4Mj8qjvC3i3fBNSXmw@mail.gmail.com>

spike wrote:  In those areas, as far as I know it is difficult to even
qualify to sit for the boards exam without a college degree in the topic

Yes, yes, but that's now.  And it needs to change.

Of course videos are better.  At the U of A nobody thought about making
money with the videos, and so they were soso at best.

Get rid of professors:  already started.  Get adjuncts:  same reason you
want to learn online - don't have to pay health care, pensions, other
perks.

How may profs are productive?  And how many just write for conferences and
don't have the quality to get into journals?  A majority, I think.

We don't know much about what a college graduate can do in many cases.
Answer:  the tests I referred to.  Tests would be constructed by those who
actually do the jobs the hirees will be doing if hired and then polished by
the psychometrician.

Then we will see that real quality, real knowledge, can be tested by valid
instruments.  Who cares about a degree?  Show them what you can do.

Right now grad schools almost always demand the GRE, as they have no idea
what people know who graduated from Podunk U.  Ditto LSAT, MCAT

Then you move on to advanced knowledge like doctors get certification in
advanced techniques and areas.

Yeah, I am trying to fix it all, not just help one of our own.  For now,
the traditional way has to be it - I agree.

bill w

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
>
>
>
> >>?Modern people can learn online all the stuff we ancients learned the
> traditional way at enormous expense?spike
>
>
>
> >?Long ago, when people were still people (around 1966 for me), at the U
> of Alabama they put in a TV course for Psych 101.  ?
>
>
>
> BillW, compare and contrast please the content and quality of those 1966
> lectures to the online content available today, then comment if you wish.
>
> >?Why not do like the old lawyers did:  study it on their own and pass
> the bar exam?  No law school courses needed.  Why couldn't this be done for
> math and many other subjects?
>
> We already have a system of establishing credentials for some professions,
> which is used to grant titles to those who pass.  Medicine, law, accounting
> and engineering are four examples.  In those areas, as far as I know it is
> difficult to even qualify to sit for the boards exam without a college
> degree in the topic.  Engineering you can, but it requires additional time
> in apprenticeship, something not really available to medics or lawyers.
>
> >?Labs are not mentioned.  Aren't they useful in many cases?  Take
> chemistry online and never get the opportunity to blow up the lab?  bill w
>
> Lab courses might be the prime candidate for being replaced by sims, since
> lab courses are relatively expensive and possibly dangerous.  As in pilot
> school, not only are sims good enough to do all the training, they are
> preferred.  You can throw situations at the trainees too dangerous for
> real-life.  A person can get a commercial pilot?s license without ever
> having left the ground.
>
> We can sim chemistry labs already.  Don?t know about biology labs.
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  8 01:00:58 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2017 20:00:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Greener Urban Environment
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fh=UANOwRP6OrHNiA4rV3=eRXuudVx2pTk91TLWeHLNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbBmZrbeaa1Qgyv0kQSvQdMncvPqAWodQn5ff2KUk84NLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEw-TDNu3Y7sTGVdaBpTjx23TAxPxg1nZk5x_APcn2Tw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fHT98UuRrzA86kDD0GuY8MSAx+C4acBtkMsiTaQnaVPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQBwrZWARe58v8bPEZksS7XnxwnpPHZ3C8KEcQ3mDD2yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2e8RkvRu4rndUzDL6SkgvYuueHS3mvfQG0pZuybHKMLbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f301d2dfa1$8c751de0$a55f59a0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fh=UANOwRP6OrHNiA4rV3=eRXuudVx2pTk91TLWeHLNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbmxCP67NZuAkgKtPPSH1N54mO5c_0SUiyPEQYxwo3cQg@mail.gmail.com>

Dave wrote:Traditional higher education controls the granting of degrees
and they won't be keen on putting themselves out of business.

What is needed are competent psychometricians.  The process:  develop tests
to determine which of those that are hired and do well do well on the
tests.  Simple.  Then you don't need degrees and such.  You need to be able
to pass such a test. Like the bar exam.   Traditional interviews, reliance
on degrees and recommendations, are old hat - very old.  Not very valid.
Proven many times.

Traditional colleges and such will disappear.  Right now the administrative
costs are just enormous and unwarranted.  Parkinson's Law.

bill w



On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 11:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> We are still missing one big ingredient before this paradigm completely
>> dominates college level education: getting laid.  OK two big ingredients: a
>> uniform objective system for credentials, a degree equivalent system
>> perhaps, one that covers both those who go the traditional route of
>> education and those who use the online resources, as well as those who do
>> both the online education and get laid.  The person or company which
>> successfully figures out how to do a useful and universal credential system
>> will make a cubic buttload of money.  Oh it makes ya hurt just thinking
>> about all the filthy lucre to be made here, ooooh a good hurt it is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggestions please?
>>
>
> Traditional higher education controls the granting of degrees and they
> won't be keen on putting themselves out of business.
>
> I think we'll need some kind of skills testing system like the
> certifications used in the IT field. E.g., Red Hat's Certification program:
>
>   https://www.redhat.com/en/services/certification
>
> If you hire a Red Hat Certified Engineer, you know you're getting someone
> who can manage your RH servers. If you hire someone with a BS in Computer
> Science you don't know that.
>
> -Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun  8 15:47:11 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 08:47:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lee corbin letter
Message-ID: <004401d2e06e$7ed30a30$7c791e90$@att.net>

 

 

Someone on the Lee Corbin Yahoo group found a letter from Lee written to
Asimov's magazine 30 years ago and posted it.  He was thinking Dyson shells
thiry years ago.  As I recall our own Lee Corbin was one of the quiet
participants in the spinoff M-brain group in about late 1990s, when ExI was
spawning spinoff groups for everything.

 

This letter was to Asimov's Fact and Science Fiction magazine, June 1987:


https://archive.org/details/Asimovs_v11n06_1987-06



Cool!

 

spike

 

 

Dear Dr. Asimov, 

 

It seems funny writing to a sci- 

ence fiction magazine, but I don't 

know where else to turn. Perhaps 

with your broad and extensive 

knowledge about almost every- 

thing, you can make some sense of 

a puzzle we have here at work. 

 

As you know, the three degree 

blackbody cosmic background ra- 

diation is a standing wave having 

to do with the Big Bang, but parts 

of it are maybe being used for 

something else. We've got hold of 

some very recent Bell Labs moni- 

toring data, and thought that just 

for fun we'd run the sidebands 

through Stanford University's new 

"Semantic-Linguistic Cryptana- 

lysis" (SLICK) programs. Amaz- 

ingly, here's part of what came out: 

$ . . . IT'S THOSE WORLDS 

THAT REVOLVE ON THEIR 

AXES THAT YOU HAVE 

TO WATCH. A UNIFORM 

HEAT DIFFERENTIAL EX- 

ISTS BETWEEN ENERGY 

RECEIVED FROM THE 

PLANET'S PRIMARY AND 

THE ENERGY RADIATED 

INTO SPACE AS THE 

PLANET TURNS. 

 

UNDER THESE CONDI- 

TIONS, SELF REPLICAT- 

ING MOLECULAR 

ACTIVITY CAN GET 

GOING ON THE PLANET'S 

SURFACE. SOMETIMES IT 

EVEN ACQUIRES THE 

ABILITY TO LAUNCH IT- 

SELF INTO SPACE. UN- 

LESS STOPPED, IT CAN 

INFECT AN ENTIRE GAL- 

AXY IN A FRACTION OF 

A GALACTIC REVOLU- 

TION. 

 

RIGHT AWAY YOU CAN 

SEE CHANGES IN A DIS- 

EASED GALAXY. IT AC- 

QUIRES A PINK TINGE AS 

THE VIRUS ENCLOSES 

STARS IN THIN SHELLS. 

FINALLY THE WHOLE 

GALAXY TURNS DEEP 

RED AS THE PESTILENCE 

SOAKS UP EVERY BIT OF 

ENERGY FOR ITS OWN 

USE. 

 

AS YOU'VE PROBABLY 

HEARD, IT IS A TEDIOUS 

JOB TO GO AROUND TO 

EVERY STAR IN A GAL- 

AXY AND STERILIZE IT. 

ESPECIALLY IF IT'S THAT 

NASTY CARBON BASED 

ACTIVITY. SOMETIMES 

YOU'D BE AMAZED WITH 

WHAT TENACITY IT TRIES 

TO HANG ON. 

 

THAT'S WHY YOU 

SHOULD TRY TO SPOT 

ANY INFECTION BEFORE 

IT GETS OFF ITS HOME 

WORLD. 

 

FORTUNATELY, FOR 

SOME REASON, JUST BE- 

FORE IT JUMPS OFF INTO 

SPACE, IT EMITS THE 

STRANGEST LONG WAVE 

RADIATION. FOR EXAM- 

PLE, NOT LONG AGO WE 

PICKED UP THIS ODD 

ITEM: 

 

"HEY, ROCHESTER, 

COME IN HERE!" 

 

OBVIOUSLY, SELF REP- 

LICATING MOLECULES 

ARE SOMEWHERE IN THE 

VICINITY AND NEED TO 

BE ERADICATED. 

 

OTHER THAN THAT, 

EVERYTHING HAS BEEN 

QUIET AROUND HERE. 

 

HOW ABOUT YOU? 

 

GALAXY 8462-6433 E.O.T. 

Well, Dr. Asimov, I have no idea 

what any of that means. Sounds 

like it's about some kind of outer 

space bacteria. Do you think it 

might be dangerous to us, too? 

Should someone be notified? Thanks 

a lot. 

 

Sincerely, 

 

Lee Corbin 

Tymshare Inc. 

Cupertino, CA

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun  8 18:27:29 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 13:27:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] rubik's blindfolded
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZO6Lp7wh4-cNQW-vVsFFNPAnxmyJt4OnKLYLWzPAqhhg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3ENUaxbfPs

What a memory!

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 00:49:46 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 19:49:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>

Review later of Robert Sapolsky's book 'Behave' - in it I find that
testosterone makes people narcissistic, egocentric, overly confident,
overly optimistic, and cocky.

Getting testosterone shots is very popular in men approaching and exceeding
70.  Maybe we need his medical chart rather than his tax returns.

Hmmm.

bill w
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 03:17:48 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 23:17:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 8:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Review later of Robert Sapolsky's book 'Behave' - in it I find that
> testosterone makes people narcissistic, egocentric, overly confident,
> overly optimistic, and cocky.
> ? ?
> Getting testosterone shots is very popular in men approaching and
> exceeding 70.  Maybe we need his medical chart rather than his tax returns.
>

?I doubt Trump took
testosterone shots
? when he was a young man but even then he was a ?
aggressive ?
narcissist
?with zero empathy. And that's not even
one of
?Trump's ?top 3
 personality traits
?, they are
:

1) Lack of general
knowledge
? and even the knowledge ?to know he doesn't know

?2) A
 inability
??
to learn
?, ?
or
?perhaps just a ?
lack of interest
? in learning?


?3) ?A inability to tell the truth even when the truth would serve his
interests better than a lie would.

I've never read a study
indicating
testosterone causes any of that so I doubt that is at the root of his
condition. I believe the correct medical term for a man showing Mr.
Trump's symptoms is
?"Anus Cavum", although most English speakers may be more familiar with the
word
"asshole".

? John K Clark?
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  9 14:24:13 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 07:24:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>

 

 

On Thu, Jun 8, 2017 at 8:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

? ? 

Getting testosterone shots is very popular in men approaching and exceeding 70.  Maybe we need his medical chart rather than his tax returns.

 

?

This is what we get for allowing the commies to elect him.  Now with the leaked report perhaps we will finally and belatedly ban all electronic voting devices forever.  I am astonished that any state or district ever allowed those.  Of course they are going to get hacked, sheesh.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 15:15:51 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 08:15:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:24 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> This is what we get for allowing the commies to elect him.  Now with the
> leaked report perhaps we will finally and belatedly ban all electronic
> voting devices forever.  I am astonished that any state or district ever
> allowed those.  Of course they are going to get hacked, sheesh.

With paper ballots, you simply make substitute ballot boxes with the
same voter numbers (or whatever "make sure this person voted" measure
is in place), and burn the real ballots.

Or simply change the count that is declared, to amounts that brook no recount.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  9 16:04:43 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 09:04:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] trump's hormones

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:24 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... I am astonished that any state or 
> district ever allowed those.  Of course they are going to get hacked,
sheesh.

>...With paper ballots, you simply make substitute ballot boxes with the
same voter numbers (or whatever "make sure this person voted" measure is in
place), and burn the real ballots.

>...Or simply change the count that is declared, to amounts that brook no
recount.
_______________________________________________


What if we have a system that scans the ballots realtime and puts up digital
images on a public site?  The voter could keep a receipt with ballot number,
then check it at any later time to verify it hasn't been modified.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 19:08:33 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 20:08:33 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Freeway interchange suitable for AI cars
Message-ID: <CAL_armhmKx+8Dw5fFT1-xeJAFWTy5VC9RrFFDYA7O3YH_5H-eg@mail.gmail.com>

Drivers Stumped By This: 5 Layers Of Traffic, 37 Metres Above Ground

<http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/drivers-stumped-by-this-5-layers-of-traffic-37-metres-above-ground-1708890>

I'll take the long way round.  :)

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun  9 21:34:41 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 14:34:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 9, 2017 9:20 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: Re: [ExI] trump's hormones

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:24 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>... I am astonished that any state or
> district ever allowed those.  Of course they are going to get hacked,
sheesh.

>...With paper ballots, you simply make substitute ballot boxes with the
same voter numbers (or whatever "make sure this person voted" measure is in
place), and burn the real ballots.

>...Or simply change the count that is declared, to amounts that brook no
recount.
_______________________________________________


What if we have a system that scans the ballots realtime and puts up digital
images on a public site?  The voter could keep a receipt with ballot number,
then check it at any later time to verify it hasn't been modified.


Electronic with matchable paper receipt has been the gold standard so far,
yes.

Of course, that doesn't fix if people at the central office change the
count beyond where a recount seems reasonable, so people never find out the
count doesn't match.  Say, if they claim people were reluctant to admit who
they were really going to vote for, in just enough districts to change the
outcome.

What was the leading explanation for why all the polls predicting Trump's
loss last November were wrong, again?
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun  9 23:14:51 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 16:14:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes




_______________________________________________


What if we have a system that scans the ballots realtime and puts up digital
images on a public site?  The voter could keep a receipt with ballot number,
then check it at any later time to verify it hasn't been modified.

 

>?Electronic with matchable paper receipt has been the gold standard so far, yes.

?

>?What was the leading explanation for why all the polls predicting Trump's loss last November were wrong, again?

 

 

I can think of a reason.  We know the commies were trying to hack the machines.  One leaked report says they were unsuccessful, but what about the ones who were successful?  Would we know?  How?

 

Think about it: we know there are thousands of talented hackers all over the globe, thousands.  Imagine you are a Russian.  You know nothing and care nothing about US politics, but you see two candidates, one who is rattling nukes at Russia and one who is inviting Russians to hack.  Now imagine you are talented enough to do things like that which was apparently done.  Which of those two would you choose?

 

Until we get rid of every electronic voting machine, every one of them, we won?t know who the commie hackers will help elect.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 01:58:41 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 18:58:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 4:14 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> What if we have a system that scans the ballots realtime and puts up digital
> images on a public site?  The voter could keep a receipt with ballot number,
> then check it at any later time to verify it hasn't been modified.

Actually, I can think of a couple cases where this might not always be
anonymous.

1) If ballot numbers correspond to addresses, and you know the ballot
number of some voter in a residence, then you know that adjacent ones
are likely to be the others at the same place - especially if you also
know they're alphabetical by first or last name.  This exact weakness
is likely to come up in many cases even if you mandate cryptographic
security with ballot numbers: the offending clerks who failed to put
it in could claim ignorance of what cryptography is (or other
incompetence), but may well be bribed far in excess of the minor fine
they'd have to pay by organizations looking to breach voter anonymity.
(Think about it: how much would, say, the Louisiana or North Carolina
GOP pay to be able to pull off voter intimidation?  They'd likely file
it as a cost of doing business, and have the various clerks "forget"
to mail ballots to, or keep on the voter rolls, anyone who did not
vote Republican last time - until the courts objected, but by then the
GOP would already have a database of people who they would prefer not
to allow to vote, so much more exact than targeting by race, class,
age, and so on.)

2) Handwriting analysis of write-in votes.  If I have enough samples
of your handwriting and online access to every ballot in your
district, I can see if you did or did not make a specific write-in
vote.  I could send thugs to ask you to make specific votes including
a specific write in so I could identify your ballot; if no ballot in
your district has that write-in in your hand, then you defied my
goons' instructions, just as surely as if you did do that write-in but
otherwise voted differently from what I ordered.  This would be a
little more labor-intensive and run a higher risk of getting reported
to the cops, but it might be favored in less sophisticated places.

> Until we get rid of every electronic voting machine, every one of them, we
> won?t know who the commie hackers will help elect.

Even if we did get rid of them, we still wouldn't know - unless you're
proposing that posting all this online would allow for third party
recounts (with individuals able to verify their own ballots) even if
the official count is way outside what would allow for a recount.



From spike66 at att.net  Sat Jun 10 02:22:48 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 19:22:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>

 

>... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes

Subject: Re: [ExI] trump's hormones

 

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 4:14 PM, spike < <mailto:spike66 at att.net> spike66 at att.net> wrote:

...

 

>>? Until we get rid of every electronic voting machine, every one of 

> them, we won?t know who the commie hackers will help elect.  spike

 

>?Even if we did get rid of them, we still wouldn't know - unless you're proposing that posting all this online would allow for third party recounts (with individuals able to verify their own ballots) even if the official count is way outside what would allow for a recount.

 

_______________________________________________

 

 

So we have a pile of randomly numbered blank ballots, touch screen voting which only prints out a hard copy of the voter?s choices.  Touch it in, print it out, verify it came out the way the voter wanted, if not trash and start over, if so, take off the receipt with an identification number, drop completed ballot into scanner, go home.

 

Ballots are scanned and posted in numerical order.  If you have receipt number 77993A8F, you can verify your vote for Bigglefartz, eleventh line:

 

 


Ballot number

Snortheimer

Bigglefartz

Smith

Jones

					

0167E82F

563269

546831

6846

798


0E99661D

563269

546832

6846

798


31DA50EE

563269

546833

6846

798


458AEAED

563270

546833

6846

798


4DB3D004

563270

546833

6847

798


5040FBF8

563270

546834

6847

798


562E809D

563271

546834

6847

798


642A6121

563271

546834

6847

799


66CD1632

563271

546834

6848

799


77993A8F

563271

546835

6848

799


80ADEDED

563272

546835

6848

799


94FF6627

563272

546836

6848

799


97C3083E

563273

546836

6848

799


A00DD07B

563274

546836

6848

799


A7DF51F7

563274

546837

6848

799


BCD25969

563274

546837

6849

799


CF0BD8F8

563274

546838

6849

799


D37ADFC2

563275

546838

6849

799


D49A2223

563275

546839

6849

799


F2DB01C7

563275

546840

6849

799


FB38110C

563276

546840

6849

799


FDC6068D

563277

546840

6849

799

 

The totals are all right there.  Snortheimer beat your candidate.

 

Next: any voter can pick up any bogus receipt from a barrel of phony Snortheimer ballots and/or a barrel of phony Jones ballots.  This would prevent vote sales: the vote buyer can?t verify she is getting anything for her money.

 

So that would take care of hacked voting machines.  

 

I recognize this doesn?t make the process perfect, only improves it.

 

As for cheating on mail-ins, well we could arrange for lots of witnesses.  Better than what we have now; the elections apparently in the hands of foreign or domestic hackers.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 04:15:37 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2017 21:15:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ9AMJ01OkgSFyjwZ=dXc88LXHUMyfAP0t5q2bu0WKqOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 9, 2017 at 7:22 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> So we have a pile of randomly numbered blank ballots
>
You assume all districts would do random numbering, rather than attaching
some meaning or structure between the voter and their number (perhaps under
the rubric of eliminating false voters, but actually to allow voter
identification in the public rolls).

This also doesn't address the problem of write-ins.  Granted, a typed
write-in wouldn't be susceptible to handwriting analysis, but just give
each bought/intimidated/etc. voter a unique candidate to write in for some
inconsequential office.  If no one voted for that (likely fictional)
candidate, the corresponding voter did not follow instructions.

To combat this, a government could say it will only publish votes for
candidates that got, say, at least 10 votes.  But then vote buyers could
just allocate blocks of 20; if only 19 such votes show up, round up all 20
and muscle out a confession: even if the wrong guy confesses, they'll all
know you mean business and (hopefully) stick to the plan next time.

Also, the government - after a few elections - would know which districts
tend not to check their ballots, and so could falsify counts in those
districts.  Even if you get everyone in your neighborhood to check their
ballots, that doesn't help if the fraud is concentrated in Lazytown where
you don't know anybody, where the ballots say they're 90% against your
candidate even if polls said they were 60% in favor.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 15:44:54 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 11:44:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>

Why couldn't I use public key encryption? I digitally sign
my completed ballot with my secret key, the one I generated when I first
registered to vote, as proof that the ballot could only have come from me.
Then I encrypt the message with the election office's public key ( and if I
were a belt and suspenders sort of mood I could encrypt it a second time
with my secret key) and then Email the entire thing to the election office,
who after decoding it with their secret key (and perhaps with my public key
if I encrypted it a second time) could then could publicly say "John Clark
voted on this date and the following is is a record of how he voted that we
encrypted with John Clark's public key so that can only be decrypted by his
secret key that is available only to him so he can make sure everything is
OK ."  I could then double check that there was no funny business going on.

Even if Vladimir Putin hacked the election office and found their secret
key I don't see how that would help him swing the election. Yes if a KGB
agent broke into my house and got physical access to my computer and found
my secret key then he could impersonate me and vote in my place, but he'd
have to go through all that trouble and he'd only get one vote, and I'd
know something was wrong when my encrypted ballot was posted.

And yes none of this will work if Quantum Computers become practical, but
when that happens we'll have much bigger issues to deal with than mere
voter fraud.

 John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 17:19:53 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 10:19:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQYoSAvB0eye90i=nLobPSN+oU9RMM6Ycts=XEqeXZ5AA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 8:44 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> Why couldn't I use public key encryption? I digitally sign my completed
> ballot with my secret key, the one I generated when I first registered to
> vote, as proof that the ballot could only have come from me. Then I encrypt
> the message with the election office's public key ( and if I were a belt and
> suspenders sort of mood I could encrypt it a second time with my secret key)
> and then Email the entire thing to the election office, who after decoding
> it with their secret key (and perhaps with my public key if I encrypted it a
> second time) could then could publicly say "John Clark voted on this date
> and the following is is a record of how he voted that we encrypted with John
> Clark's public key so that can only be decrypted by his secret key that is
> available only to him so he can make sure everything is OK ."  I could then
> double check that there was no funny business going on.

With your ballot, perhaps, but you'd have no way to verify the total.
"You voted for X.  We claim only 20 people voted for X, and the other
80 voted for Y."


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 10 22:48:30 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2017 23:48:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Now it's robotic furniture!
Message-ID: <CAL_armgnywBHWgkPsApuEEi03d0jm4OrJXEdP3F+qVCvA6OXXw@mail.gmail.com>

Check out this apartment with ?robotic furniture,? and walls that move
June 8, 2017

<https://www.yahoo.com/news/small-apartments-feel-lot-bigger-083559783.html>

Quote:
The remarkable ?robotic furniture? system, designed by MIT Media Lab
spinoff Ori in partnership with Swiss designer Yves Behar,
incorporates an automated system that lets you quickly transform the
?giant closet? for different uses, including a work space, dining
table, bed, entertainment center, and storage space.
--------------


BillK



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 16:59:00 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 12:59:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQYoSAvB0eye90i=nLobPSN+oU9RMM6Ycts=XEqeXZ5AA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQYoSAvB0eye90i=nLobPSN+oU9RMM6Ycts=XEqeXZ5AA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2=H6OgnNbVixrRNz6quHs57qrZ8Uqhr94ob+5eyPtp6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 1:19 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> ?>?
>> Why couldn't I use public key encryption? I digitally sign my completed
>> ? ?
>> ballot with my secret key, the one I generated when I first registered to
>> ? ?
>> vote, as proof that the ballot could only have come from me. Then I
>> encrypt
>> ? ?
>> the message with the election office's public key ( and if I were a belt
>> and
>> ? ?
>> suspenders sort of mood I could encrypt it a second time with my secret
>> key)
>> ? ?
>> and then Email the entire thing to the election office, who after
>> ? ?
>> decoding
>> ? ?
>> it with their secret key (and perhaps with my public key if I encrypted
>> it a
>> ? ?
>> second time) could then could publicly say "John Clark voted on this date
>> ??
>>  and the following is is a record of how he voted that we encrypted with
>> John
>> ? ?
>> Clark's public key so that can only be decrypted by his secret key that is
>> ? ?
>> available only to him so he can make sure everything is OK ."  I could
>> then
>> double check that there was no funny business going on.
>
>
> ?> ?
> With your ballot, perhaps, but you'd have no way to verify the total.
> "You voted for X.  We claim only 20 people voted for X, and the other
> 80 voted for Y."
>

?The idea isn't to find the perfect voting system, you're never going to
have that, it's just to find one that is more secure,  easier to use, and
cheaper to implement than anything we have now.?

?

 John K Clark




>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 17:13:01 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:13:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] exciting paint, was: RE: freedom threatened
In-Reply-To: <015101d25a0b$780f3b90$682db2b0$@att.net>
References: <007c01d259a6$b9f155d0$2dd40170$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFbrnP09y9dG8r1=dTOebWYHYLCewVXW=2T4p7kBydX=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <00d001d259bd$2ab85460$8028fd20$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyG1SYecDKR26cxndXJTe0ZRVcnwoooqv-ATLKOtoS=QaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyE1Qiy1Ucc76V2pVf5=aN=v6Bj12-24rHd-H4DBCVdbYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <015101d25a0b$780f3b90$682db2b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2d1SVfOC6iNo3wRY=PU2Dpr4KteOVO7JjEn-N=M-7Q8_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 10:20 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>  *>?* *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg
>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] exciting paint, was: RE: freedom threatened
>
>
>
> >?I will compile some literature regarding psychedelics?I am glad that
> they appear to be on the path to cultural acceptance and legalization,
> because I stand by my belief that, especially for people like you, not
> trying these in your lifetime is a waste of immense proportions?
>
>
>
> Hi Will, thanks for the invitation.  I respectfully decline your offer.
> For the record, I advise not going there, and while not there, staying not
> there.  My intuition tells me the risks outweigh the benefits.  As you say,
> I have not tried it, so all I have is my intuition on the matter.  I am all
> for open-mindedness and trying new experiences.  Just not this one.
>

No, this isn't an acid flashback. I just read this article:

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/01/this-is-your-brain-on-acid-seriously-new

And immediately thought of Will and this thread.

Some highlights:

*Zach: So you were quite literally looking at, "This is your brain on
drugs" and what is our brain on this particular drug?*

*Dr. Nutt: Well the good news is no one's brain got fried, but what we saw,
we saw effects which were somewhat similar to what we'd seen with
Psilocybin, but more profound, which you might expect because LSD has a
very profound effect on many aspects of brain function. The key messages
are that LSD breaks down the normal structure of brain integration. Our
brains are trained over decades to do things exactly the same way as
everyone else and exactly the same way everyday, every hour, every minute,
every second. Those structures we thought were hardwired, but it turns out
they're not hardwired. They can be disrupted by LSD. LSD basically makes
the brain much more connected.*

*Parts of the brain which haven't been allowed to talk to each other for
30, 40 years can talk to each other again, huge amount of crosstalk. We
call this the entropic brain or the much more flexible brain. We think
that's what underlies the experiences that people have during the trip,
even got good evidence for that, but also explains why afterwards people
often feel different and better because they've been allowed to ...
actually the brain's been allowed to work in a slightly different way for
the first time, perhaps ever.*

*Zach: My understanding is that when people were closing their eyes the
part of the brain that's associated with vision was actually still active.
Could you tell me what you take away from that?*

*Dr. Nutt: Yeah, so what we showed was that the so-called ... the complex
visual hallucinations that people say under psychedelics. They close their
eyes and they say it's like films going on in front of their eyes even
though their eyes are closed. We discovered why that is, it's because
normally I close my eyes and there's very little activity in my visual
cortex and there's not activity linking the visual cortex to the rest of my
brain, but under LSD the visual cortex was connected to every part of the
brain. So there was crosstalk and, of course, crosstalk for the visual
system is visual talk so that's why you have these fascinating, complex,
interesting images.*

*Zach: If one of the big takeaways from this is that on LSD different parts
of the brain that don't usually work together are suddenly somehow
connected, what does that mean in practicality, in application? Where does
that take us? What questions should we now be asking that we have that
information?*

*Dr. Nutt: Well, I think what's fascinating about it is it doesn't just
explain the psychedelic state, but it also helps us make sense of why drugs
like LSD can change the way people behave in the long term. There were six
trials in American for LSD to be used to treat alcoholism. In fact, the
founder of AA, Bill Wilson, he got his liberation from his alcoholism, the
chains that held him to his drink were broken by a psychedelic experience.
He became a profound enthusiast for LSD. He pioneered these six trials of
using LSD for alcoholism. It works, people are much less likely to relapse
back to drinking after they've had a psychedelic experience because they
can see there's a world out there which isn't all about the bottle.*

Zach: At this conference we've heard researchers talk about some
potentially promising results using psychedelics to treat things like PTSD,
depression, anxiety. Do the brain scans that you did offer any clue as to
why psychedelics seem to offer some relief to these kind of conditions?

Dr. Nutt: Psychiatric disorders, say like depression or PTSD, exist because
people cannot disengage. They get locked into a form of thinking. Depressed
people keep thinking negative thoughts. "I made a mistake. I was a bad
mother." "I made a mistake. I was a bad person." They can't disengage those
thoughts. PTSD, people can't disengage from the memory and over time those
circuits in the brain become completely self-determining. They just go on
and on and on, even if the person wants to stop them. And they can't. I
think the disruption of circuits, the breaking down of these regimented
silos of function of the brain by psychedelics is one explanation as to why
people can escape from those underlying disorders.

Zach: Some critics might think why study psychedelics at all? We have
pharmaceuticals that treat anxiety, depression, that are specifically
designed to help with these disorders. Why open this can of worms and study
psychedelics at all?

Dr. Nutt: Yeah, that's a really important question. And the people who are
against psychedelics often say that, "We don't need it. We've got good
treatments." Well, the truth is we don't have very good treatments. Half of
all people who are treated with antidepressants don't respond to the first
dose. To get 90% to respond you usually have two or three trials. So there
are people who don't respond and never respond so there's an opportunity
for them. Disorders like alcoholism response rates are like 10% not 80%. So
there's a huge unmet need, that the first thing. Second thing is, these are
fundamental states of ordered consciousness. I would argue the greatest
goal for science is understanding the human brain. You [can't] understand
the human brain if you don't understand how the human brain is different
when it's on a psychedelic. To me, this is one of the most fundamental
questions.

Zach: Do you think psychedelics could offer a scientific glimpse into the
phenomemon of consciousness itself?

Dr. Nutt: The conclusion I've come to from our work is there are at least
two forms of consciousness. There's a consciousness which most people talk
about when they talk about consciousness, which is whether you're awake or
asleep, whether you actually know what you're doing, whether you can
actually remember what you're saying, whether you've got self-awareness,
that's one consciousness. We know what drives that. That's driven by
neurotransmitters called glutamate and GABA. And there's another form of
consciousness and this is what psychedelics, psychedelics change the nature
consciousness. Not the amount of it, but the content. It's completely
different access of brain function. That's driven by serotonin, the
serotonin receptors that psychedelics work on. That is fascinating to me. I
think that access is actually an access that scientists don't know about
because that's not the scientific access. That's the access that artists,
creative people work on, your poets, painters. Scientists think very
linearly, but this is a nonlinear kind of experiential thinking. We've
opened up, I think, the scientific study of things like creativity.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 17:29:29 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 13:29:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] trump's hormones
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbj2gUv6EVFAJPUKTqKtJFKAm8WEyjivMs+BVsLKzYg8w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2XPGQ4BC5RED2Ub9dMOaObu6Kvn5urRXxg+3=aKpKS3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2e12c$12000ed0$36002c70$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRQ_RT5ZBzuY6wa3Ppt9fdcpp7N96RxTxbD7cX5vA-J4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <009901d2e13a$1c93b280$55bb1780$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRf1n8MeXWC1c0DNc8Uf0Ja=JFXFSwobbgNjNkpjRydWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <002501d2e176$333aae80$99b00b80$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNTo_T+X0HS6qSQYb+36HTkuZZBXknLfiy7_ZEHPOvBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d2e190$74afbc60$5e0f3520$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1LZVFNghifi1dimdA8o4A02V2gnfmGLx_5wSL7irihQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c4pg2box8SEMxpryYG+0H0Q43uyC4wb5ecSRLYqbg8hw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 11:44 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Why couldn't I use public key encryption? I digitally sign
> my completed ballot with my secret key, the one I generated when I first
> registered to vote, as proof that the ballot could only have come from me.
> Then I encrypt the message with the election office's public key ( and if I
> were a belt and suspenders sort of mood I could encrypt it a second time
> with my secret key) and then Email the entire thing to the election office,
> who after decoding it with their secret key (and perhaps with my public key
> if I encrypted it a second time) could then could publicly say "John Clark
> voted on this date and the following is is a record of how he voted that we
> encrypted with John Clark's public key so that can only be decrypted by his
> secret key that is available only to him so he can make sure everything is
> OK ."  I could then double check that there was no funny business going on.
>

This biggest problem I see with that is that it's not secret ballot: the
election office can see who voted for whom.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 12 23:05:24 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 18:05:24 -0500
Subject: [ExI] girls better at math;Sapolsky
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZLCVb9qS2p8qNFYQ4Nz79zQ1rkPStsHap8wfb4trsYvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sapolsky:  tidbit about math.  Sorry, guys, girls score better than guys at
the highest level (not just average) in Iceland.

The more gender neutral the country, the more girls score as well as guys,
with Iceland being the most neutral.

Halfway through:  best nonfiction (or tied for the top) I have read.  If I
were (and I am not) the sort of person who tells people "You just have to
read this book." I would do so emphatically.  But you will be highly
rewarded if you do.  If you want the very latest in nature/nurture
interaction, epigenetics and a very lot more all the way to evolution, buy
it - read it.  Incredible book and a lot of technical stuff (DNA,
hormones), but you won't miss anything if you don't read those - mostly in
appendices.  Often very funny!

More later

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jun 13 02:55:15 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2017 19:55:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] kasparov doing ted
Message-ID: <008a01d2e3f0$7cb7eb50$7627c1f0$@att.net>

 

 

Former world chess champion Garry Kasparov did a great TED talk: Don't fear
intelligent machines, work with them:

 

https://embed.ted.com/200933c4-bc7b-4e3d-bad8-7bd9ef3c809e

 

That commie could be one of us.  Don't invite him however.  If he came to
ExI, every time that man posted even single word, I would humbly fall
prostrate before my computer, crying out, Oh Kasparov, have mercy upon my
sinning soul, for I suck!  that sorta thing.  

 

We chess players are that way whenever any of the biggies are anywhere
nearby.

 

spike

 

 

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Jun 14 02:41:37 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2017 21:41:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] voting
Message-ID: <CABf9QbCVxHr0G2wuK4R28cmnEdd98zR746c-hDQzB_6vR4jS-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This biggest problem I see with that [public key encryption] is that it's not secret ballot: the
> election office can see who voted for whom.
>
> -Dave


Having worked in politics, I can tell you that people really do tend
to vote party line, especially in bigger races, and are more likely to
swing in smaller races. Registered political parties are a good
indicator of big ticket votes.

Potential swing voters are identified by demographic statistics. For
example, young (18-29) single, never-married women, who are head of
household, and are registered Republican are the most targeted by the
Democratic Party as potential swing voters. People will often tell you
their previous voting history, leading to a reasonable assumption of
future voting activity.

And I'm not sure how many of you know this, but people often call
their local party office and specifically ASK who to vote for. If
you've never experienced that shocking moment, I suggest you
experience it. It's very depressing.

Also, people will plaster their cars and social media with mention of
candidates that they will not, or will definitely vote for. Big data
can draw from a remarkable number of sources and identify fairly
reliably who people will vote for, often more accurately than people's
initial thoughts. So even if we did have a truly secret ballot, which
there really isn't, there are other ways to use data to determine
fairly accurately who someone voted for.

Statistically speaking, a Republican was likely to win the election,
as America tends to flip parties for the presidential race. There are
obvious exceptions, Bush Sr. for example.


From csaucier at sovacs.com  Wed Jun 14 23:44:07 2017
From: csaucier at sovacs.com (Christian Saucier)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 18:44:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] voting
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbCVxHr0G2wuK4R28cmnEdd98zR746c-hDQzB_6vR4jS-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABf9QbCVxHr0G2wuK4R28cmnEdd98zR746c-hDQzB_6vR4jS-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D16109AA-9441-4A29-9718-D65EBDCA8313@sovacs.com>

Zero Knowledge Cryptography to the rescue!  The Zcash team has written a nice piece about it: https://z.cash/technology/zksnarks.html

"Zero-knowledge proofs allow one party (the prover) to prove to another (the verifier) that a statement is true, without revealing any information beyond the validity of the statement itself. For example, given the hash of a random number, the prover could convince the verifier that there indeed exists a number with this hash value, without revealing what it is."

This could be applied to the statement "I Voted" or "I Voted for Cthulhu" without having to reveal who you are. 

C. 

On June 13, 2017 9:41:37 PM CDT, SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> This biggest problem I see with that [public key encryption] is that
>it's not secret ballot: the
>> election office can see who voted for whom.
>>
>> -Dave
>
>
>Having worked in politics, I can tell you that people really do tend
>to vote party line, especially in bigger races, and are more likely to
>swing in smaller races. Registered political parties are a good
>indicator of big ticket votes.
>
>Potential swing voters are identified by demographic statistics. For
>example, young (18-29) single, never-married women, who are head of
>household, and are registered Republican are the most targeted by the
>Democratic Party as potential swing voters. People will often tell you
>their previous voting history, leading to a reasonable assumption of
>future voting activity.
>
>And I'm not sure how many of you know this, but people often call
>their local party office and specifically ASK who to vote for. If
>you've never experienced that shocking moment, I suggest you
>experience it. It's very depressing.
>
>Also, people will plaster their cars and social media with mention of
>candidates that they will not, or will definitely vote for. Big data
>can draw from a remarkable number of sources and identify fairly
>reliably who people will vote for, often more accurately than people's
>initial thoughts. So even if we did have a truly secret ballot, which
>there really isn't, there are other ways to use data to determine
>fairly accurately who someone voted for.
>
>Statistically speaking, a Republican was likely to win the election,
>as America tends to flip parties for the presidential race. There are
>obvious exceptions, Bush Sr. for example.
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jun 17 20:35:47 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2017 16:35:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Why a modification of Libertarian dogma is needed
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2K90_JTyXP-iyp5=h0o5Dmcniu4nNonTBNs=yTHVNtdA@mail.gmail.com>

?A recent?
 survey was conducted by the University of Oxford of 352
?prominent ?
AI researchers
?, this is the average prediction on when they think AI will outperform
humans at various tasks:?

Translate?
 languages better than humans
? = 2024?

?W?
rite high school
? ?
level essays
?better than human high schoolers = 2026
Drive trucks better than humans = 2027
Work in retail =? 2031

Write books = 2049
Perform surgery = 2053
Be better than humans at everything = 2062

John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 00:40:07 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 17:40:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
Message-ID: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>

 

 

What's with all the non-yakkity yaks?

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 01:17:21 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 21:17:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3akgwndWNvkEWkC2Wuu3wCj4V=-DRaU2JRbeTNc8nFQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> What?s with all the non-yakkity yaks?
>
>
?I was wondering about that too. Maybe everybody but you and me fell into a
Black Hole.

 John K Clark?






>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 01:49:53 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:49:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3akgwndWNvkEWkC2Wuu3wCj4V=-DRaU2JRbeTNc8nFQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv3akgwndWNvkEWkC2Wuu3wCj4V=-DRaU2JRbeTNc8nFQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023001d2ea30$af19d040$0d4d70c0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:17 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

 

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

?> ?>?What?s with all the non-yakkity yaks?

 

?>?I was wondering about that too. Maybe everybody but you and me fell into a Black Hole.

 

 John K Clark?

 

 

 

Ja, or the apocalypse.  What the heck are you still doing here John?  Thought you would be whisked away with the saints.

 

All the cool news on that new Intel chip and the new NASA announcement on all those sexy new exoplanets (sexoplanets?) but all I hear are crickets chirring in the still night.  Guys?  Aaaahstamattah yooouuuu?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 01:31:36 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 18:31:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> What?s with all the non-yakkity yaks?

Some of us may be going through what feels like a Yakety Sax routine.

BTW: what's the list policy on commercial posts?  CubeCab's got an
announcement coming up this Friday; I'd like to know if I may post a
distilled version of it here.



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 03:49:51 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2017 20:49:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:32 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> What?s with all the non-yakkity yaks?

>...Some of us may be going through what feels like a Yakety Sax routine...

It's alive!  This list lives.

>...BTW: what's the list policy on commercial posts?  CubeCab's got an announcement coming up this Friday; I'd like to know if I may post a distilled version of it here.

_______________________________________________



Adrian, post away, me lad.  If anyone complains, we will review.  In this case I would be very surprised if anyone complains.

spike




From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 07:01:42 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:01:42 +0200
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>

The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle
moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in
particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research
(thoughts forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it
used to be. I wonder whether that means mailing lists have
irreversibly joined the graveyard of social media, or we could come up
with creative ideas to reload the list.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 5:49 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:32 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] test
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:40 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>> What?s with all the non-yakkity yaks?
>
>>...Some of us may be going through what feels like a Yakety Sax routine...
>
> It's alive!  This list lives.
>
>>...BTW: what's the list policy on commercial posts?  CubeCab's got an announcement coming up this Friday; I'd like to know if I may post a distilled version of it here.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Adrian, post away, me lad.  If anyone complains, we will review.  In this case I would be very surprised if anyone complains.
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 07:18:26 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:18:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048

I shared this to social media with the line:
NASA, ESA, Russia, China, Google, scientists, entrepreneurs,
politicians, YOU: LISTEN to Stephen Hawking! LISTEN!

Prof Stephen Hawking has called for leading nations to send astronauts
to the Moon by 2020.

They should also aim to build a lunar base in 30 years' time and send
people to Mars by 2025.

"A new and ambitious space programme would excite (young people), and
stimulate interest in other areas, such as astrophysics and
cosmology".

"We are running out of space and the only places to go to are other
worlds. It is time to explore other solar systems. Spreading out may
be the only thing that saves us from ourselves. I am convinced that
humans need to leave Earth,"

"To leave Earth demands a concerted global approach, everyone should
join in. We need to rekindle the excitement of the early days of space
travel in the sixties."

"I hope for the best. I have to. We have no other option".


From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 12:54:57 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 08:54:57 -0400
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyH74MHzHtkkhNcyes-aNuPLXuyM=23vG=L-Kyj=3NcqBg@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, I'm pretty sure *all* yaks are yakkity!
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 13:46:36 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 06:46:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Myth of Cognitive Enhancement Drugs?
Message-ID: <53684AAC-8142-4BCD-BEB2-6440BE25EB83@gmail.com>

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12152-015-9232-9

Takeaway: "... the overall evidence is far from conclusive that these drugs actually improve cognitive function in the cognitively normal."

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 14:34:43 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:34:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaRhVz29RMMuN+QodjT=JpDN=RKLoiO4-nmqzN8WwaoeA@mail.gmail.com>

Giulio wrote:  ?
we could come up
with creative ideas to reload the list.

?We don't go anywhere because of my wife's health and my back.  My life is
about puttering around the house, supervising my gardener, and reading.  I
am always looking for things to read, and this group could be a major
source of science, scifi, and nature books for me to buy.

But the only books I see are the ones I mention?, which, judging by what I
have read in this list over the several years, are right up your alleys.
Why not share with me what you like?  Assuming it's not all that technical.
 (Anyway, I can skip those parts.)

I have noted that some of you have read Pinker, Haidt, maybe Moral Tribes
by Greene, and others.  Sapolsky and violence and morality (and everything
else from transcriptase to WWII) should interest nearly everyone.  Highly
technical in places, but you can skip those and not miss an idea.

We can discuss the ideas in these books endlessly.

We could get Anders to rejoin if we had discussions of AI and transhumans
and all that.  Surely we have not run out of ideas.

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 14:22:41 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:22:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005e01d2ea99$d83036e0$8890a4a0$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:02 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

>...The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research (thoughts forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it used to be. I wonder whether that means mailing lists have irreversibly joined the graveyard of social media, or we could come up with creative ideas to reload the list...





Chat groups have specialized in the past 20 yrs.  The notion of posting actual sentences rather than tweeting about, what, 37 characters? is alive and well.  There are plenty of topics you can't really cover in 37 characters.  I leave that to the politicians: I have notions that just cannot fit in that space.

Twenty yrs ago we used to spin off temporary subgroups, but ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything.  Now these specialty groups are permanent and have good focus.  I am in several of them myself, specifically about stuff I want to know about.

I am surprised no one is posting about that new Intel chip or the new exos.  Perhaps fresh in my mind is the announcement of Kepler's first findings, oh boy that was a toe curler.

spike





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 14:43:50 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:43:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Myth of Cognitive Enhancement Drugs?
In-Reply-To: <53684AAC-8142-4BCD-BEB2-6440BE25EB83@gmail.com>
References: <53684AAC-8142-4BCD-BEB2-6440BE25EB83@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaVukXEjxfsmgG441EHQYPeLmoGERaUi6ndnwTGFiQnOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 8:46 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12152-015-9232-9
> <https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12152-015-9232-9?utm_campaign=CON31776_1&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=email&wt_mc=email.newsletter.8.CON31776.internal_1>
>
> Takeaway: "... the overall evidence is far from conclusive that these
> drugs actually improve cognitive function in the cognitively normal."
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
>
?The problems with these studies?

?are many.  First, they give drugs to very heterogeneous samples composed,
say, of introverts and extroverts.  Give those caffeine, say, and you will
get widely different results.  Ignore that variable and you will get an
average of no difference.

Another is diagnostic criteria:  the way such things as ADD or ADHD are
diagnosed is way too widely variable, and so studies are not comparable.

I think most of us know people who have been helped by Ritalin - I do - my
granddaughter for one.  But it's not going to help everyone you give it to
if you are not very careful in your selection? of your sample.

Classic study:  a group was given a memory task and half were tested an
hour later, and half 24 hours later.  There was no difference in memory.
Then the group was split into introvert and extrovert and lo and behold,
the extroverts remembered better an hour later, and the introverts a day
later.  But toss all the data in one pot and you find out nothing.

bill w

>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 14:33:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 07:33:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyH74MHzHtkkhNcyes-aNuPLXuyM=23vG=L-Kyj=3NcqBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyH74MHzHtkkhNcyes-aNuPLXuyM=23vG=L-Kyj=3NcqBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005f01d2ea9b$4a129d10$de37d730$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

 

>?Spike, I'm pretty sure *all* yaks are yakkity!

 

 

Hairy sons a bitches for sure.  

 

This surprises me: I know of nowhere around here that a prole can buy yak meat.  I can find pretty much any kind of beast, alligator, game animals such as elk and deer meat, all the usual collection of odd birds, even ostrich.  But no yak.  Our is the yakless society.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 15:25:48 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 16:25:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <005f01d2ea9b$4a129d10$de37d730$@att.net>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyH74MHzHtkkhNcyes-aNuPLXuyM=23vG=L-Kyj=3NcqBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2ea9b$4a129d10$de37d730$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh0Exc3itJh9_Z-zg51siU=35QPv9DuhDPjKWk+uxftgg@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 June 2017 at 15:33, spike wrote:
> This surprises me: I know of nowhere around here that a prole can buy yak
> meat.  I can find pretty much any kind of beast, alligator, game animals
> such as elk and deer meat, all the usual collection of odd birds, even
> ostrich.  But no yak.  Our is the yakless society.
>

You didn't search, did you?    :)

<https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=yak+meat&find_loc=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&ns=1>

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Wed Jun 21 16:13:20 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:13:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh0Exc3itJh9_Z-zg51siU=35QPv9DuhDPjKWk+uxftgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CAKTCJyfoi3yEU0h_M2OkmoG9aCwSFpMAL+hP4-OZpuG5_QRayA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyH74MHzHtkkhNcyes-aNuPLXuyM=23vG=L-Kyj=3NcqBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005f01d2ea9b$4a129d10$de37d730$@att.net>
 <CAL_armh0Exc3itJh9_Z-zg51siU=35QPv9DuhDPjKWk+uxftgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bb01d2eaa9$4d469690$e7d3c3b0$@att.net>


>... On Behalf Of BillK
ubject: Re: [ExI] test

On 21 June 2017 at 15:33, spike wrote:
> This surprises me: I know of nowhere around here that a prole can buy 
> yak meat.  I can find pretty much any kind of beast, alligator, game 
> animals such as elk and deer meat, all the usual collection of odd 
> birds, even ostrich.  But no yak.  Our is the yakless society.
>

You didn't search, did you?    :)

<https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=yak+meat&find_loc=Los+Angeles%2C+CA&n
s=1>

BillK
_______________________________________________


I did, these are in the LA area, 8 hr drive, and there are about a dozen
places I can go if I drive an hour into SF.

Might do it.

spike



From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 20:25:31 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 21:25:31 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Proton VPN secure internet
Message-ID: <CAL_armgGRFJ5Nh0opv-Kzpg8jiZf4__7dM+WdiKhh65oanEEBw@mail.gmail.com>

ProtonMail makes its free VPN service available to everyone

The free tier isn't as robust as the paid ones, but it's free forever.
Mariella Moon, 06.20.17

<https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/20/protonmail-releases-free-vpn-to-public/>

Quote:
ProtonMail, the encrypted email created by CERN and MIT scientists,
has released a new product in response to the administration's roll
back of Obama-era internet privacy rules. Starting today, you can try
out the company's VPN service, which was in beta testing by 10,000
initial users for a year, by getting it from the official ProtonVPN
website. The great thing about it is that it has a free tier that's
free forever. It might not be as robust as the paid ones, but it still
routes your connection through multiple encrypted tunnels in three
countries.

<https://protonvpn.com/blog/free-vpn-service-launch/>

You can now directly get ProtonVPN by visiting <https://protonvpn.com>

However, we have done more than make ProtonVPN free. We have also
worked to make it the best VPN service ever created, by addressing
many of the common pitfalls with VPNs. For example, ProtonVPN features
a Secure Core architecture which routes traffic through multiple
encrypted tunnels in multiple countries to better defend against
network based attacks, and also features seamless integration with the
Tor anonymity network. You can learn about all the steps we took to
build a secure VPN here.

-------------------

You only need an email address to sign up. Even an anonymous
ProtonMail address will do.

They have built-in access to the Tor network, Onion sites and the dark web.
(The dark web is not only for criminals- but be careful if you go there!).  :)

I haven't tried it yet, but at the moment there may be delays as they
seem to be swamped with applications.


BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 21 22:19:26 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 17:19:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>

It now seems that vets are committing suicide at the rate of 20 or so a
day.  More Vietnam vets have done so than died in combat there.

The VA promises to cut waiting time, is being reorganized, is underfunded,
etc.

I am not a vet but was a clinical psychologist in part, and it seems that
vets and PTSD is being treated like mental illness - i.e. like please just
go away, I don't want to think about you.

Sapolsky, whose book I have finished and will review shortly, says that
brain images had to be shown to Congress so that they understand that a
disease is there, not just some wimpy guys crying themselves to sleep at
night.

Outside of the mentally ill, I just don't know of a group that deserves
far, far more attention than these vets.  Alcoholism, drug addiction,
homelessness, are rampant.

Why would anyone want to go fight a war for the USA?  Especially in
unwinnable wars like we have now.

bill w
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 01:32:39 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:32:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048

Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
help - on the Moon or on Mars.

What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
cause many to happen.


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 13:04:19 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:04:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>

Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
start dreaming again.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>
> Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
> help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>
> What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
> other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
> cause many to happen.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 18:48:26 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:48:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Cosmological Natural Selection
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0=9_Fz+TWjD34irGNGXESmNded7c-HSLzPMCe9JRVUew@mail.gmail.com>

I've just read Lee Smolin's book
? ?
"Time Reborn"
? ?
and it reminded m
?e?
of his previous book
? ?
"The Life Of The Cosmos"
? ?
that was about
? ?
Cosmological Natural Selection. Smolin's idea is that when a star collapses
into a Black Hole a Singularity does not form in it's center, instead
everything bounces back before infinite density is reached. You would not
see this from the outside of the Black Hole but from the inside such a
thing would look like a big bang, and a new universe would be formed.
? ?
In that new universe the constants of physics, the 20 or so number
?s?
that can't be derived and must be put in by hand by physicists to make
there theories conform with observation, are similar to their parent
universe but not identical, there would be some
?small ?
random variation.
??
Universes that have laws encouraging the formation of black holes will
?thus ?
have more descendants than those that don't
?.?

?And
 all this sounds very much like Darwin's idea written on a cosmic scale
? ?
because it has the 2 things that are needed, natural selection and
inheritance (although some have questioned the inheritance part wondering
if information can really cross the event horizon, even mutated
information).

Smolin
? ?
does not
? ?
predict
? ?
that
? ?
as a result of this Evolution
? ?
the physical
? ?
constants
? ?
in our universe
? ?
are
? ?
perfect for the formation of Black Holes,
? ?
but he does predict no small change
? ?
in them
? ?
will make more Black Holes.  And Black Holes need stars that go supernova,
and
? ?
hose stars
? ?
produce carbon and oxygen that also causes dust clouds to cool more and
collapse into
? ?yet
more
? ?
large stars that go supernova
? ?
and form more Black Holes
?.?
Those heavy elements also cause life to form but as far as
? ?
Cosmological Natural Selection
? ?
is concerned that's just a unimportant byproduct.

But what about Primordial Black Holes, you don't need stars to make then.
According to inflation theory expansion of
?our?
 universe started slow but then in just
? ?
10^-36 seconds space expanded by a factor of 10^78, during that time the
universe grew by a larger personage than it has form then to now
? ?
13.8 billion years
? ?
later. There is a number called the Size Density Constant, if it were much
larger all the matter in the universe would form Black Holes almost
immediately, but it turn out then the universe would inflate for even less
than 10^-36 seconds so there would be much less matter in it, so although
all its matter would be in the form on Black Holes it would have fewer
Black Holes than out universe does.

Smolin makes another prediction this one is about Neutron Stars.
Cosmological Natural Selection
? ?
predicts that the maximum mass a Neutron Star can be is lower than
previously thought and thus more Black Holes can be produced due to a
particle called the Kaon. The conventional idea is that in a Neutron Star
the pressure is so high electrons are forced into protons forming neutrons
and that's the end of the story, and if that's true then the maximum mass
of a Neutron star is
? ?
somewhere between
? ?
2.5
? ?
and
? ?
2.9 solar masses
?.?
But that's without considering Kaons, Smolin found that theory says some
interesting things happens to them when the pressure gets very high.

Normally Kaons are much more massive than electrons and thus unstable, but
under ultra high pressure suddenly the individual wave function of the
particles will merge, much like what happens to electrons in
superconductors, and their effective mass should be reduced
? ?
by
? ?
a lot, perhaps even to less than that of a electron.  If that actually
happens then things would be reversed and electrons would become unstable
and decay into Kaons (and Neutrinos  which fly out of the star and play no
further part in the story). In this scenario the upper mass limit for a
neutron star is
? ?
between
? ?
1.6
? ?
and
? ?
2 solar masses. More than that and a Black Hole forms because the
Kaon-Proton-Neutron soup at the center would be even more dense than
degenerate neutron matter
?,?
so the Neutron Star would be smaller
? and?
its surface gravity greater, and thus a Black Hole can be formed with less
mass.

?But would the effective mass of the Kaon really ?become less than that of
the electron? Nobody knows for sure but we do know that the mass of the
Kaon depends on the mass of the Strange Quark, and the Strange Quark has
little involvement with everyday matter in our everyday world, so in a
universe that had a Strange Quark with a mass very different from our own
things would be pretty much the same as they are here except the maximum
size of a Neutron Star and thus the minimum size of a Black Hole would be
different.

?
The two most massive neutron stars
?where the?
?
mass
? ?
ha
?s?
? ?
been
? ?
been accurately measured
?are?
? ?
PSR J0348+0432
? ?
with
? ?
2.01?0.04 solar masses
? ?
and
? ?
PSR J1614?2230
? ?
with
? ?
1.97 ? 0.04
? ?
solar masses. So far the Kaon idea survives by the skin of its teeth. There
is another Neutron Star whose mass might be as high as 2.5 solar masses but
that measurement is much less precise
? than the others?
, however Smolin says if
?it?
 holds up then the Cosmological Natural Selection
? ?
idea
? ?
will have been disproved. By the way the smallest Black Hole found so far
is GRO J1655-40
? ?
with 5.31?.07 solar masses
?. The reason for the large observational gap between the most massive
Neutron Star and the least massive Black Hole is probably because small
Black Holes are generally harder to detect than Neutron Stars. ?

 John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 19:15:11 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 12:15:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>

Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and
people have seen what little comes of it.

Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
powerful, ongoing symbol.

On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
> start dreaming again.
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
> >
> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
> >
> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
> > cause many to happen.
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 22:25:07 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 23:25:07 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 June 2017 at 20:15, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
>
> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>

The ISS is within the earth's magnetic field so the astronauts are
mostly protected from cosmic rays and solar flares. Their trips are
also of relatively short duration.
Radiation damage on a Moonbase or on long trips to Mars would be a
much greater danger.
Extended periods of low gravity also does weird things to the human body.

You could say the ISS is a powerful symbol that it is too risky (at
present) for humans to go further away.

Bring on the AI robot astronauts!

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 22:36:28 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 15:36:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRWFdaXm1WPJaDnmpvXx6S4Lu0yJncaL_1UzoGtgW1p-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 22, 2017 3:28 PM, "BillK" <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

The ISS is within the earth's magnetic field so the astronauts are
mostly protected from cosmic rays and solar flares. Their trips are
also of relatively short duration.


In theory, the ISS's replacement will be higher up, past that field.
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 23:28:41 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 00:28:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRWFdaXm1WPJaDnmpvXx6S4Lu0yJncaL_1UzoGtgW1p-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWFdaXm1WPJaDnmpvXx6S4Lu0yJncaL_1UzoGtgW1p-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armj9-cpJSdtZjPi8wsBCZKvHvF3orBxVQOHSW8G9sQnsAw@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 June 2017 at 23:36, Adrian Tymes  wrote:
> In theory, the ISS's replacement will be higher up, past that field.
>

I haven't read much about a proposed ISS replacement.
A bit of searching just finds lots of 'hand-wavy' suggestions. Maybe a
Russian station using their module from the ISS, maybe a new Chinese
station, maybe private enterprise stations, maybe a Moon base, etc.
The huge cost to build and maintain the ISS led to international
co-operation to share the cost, so a replacement station may just be
too costly, especially when other space projects require funding as
well.
NASA and Russia have agreed to extend funding for the current ISS
until 2024, so there is still some time available to develop
replacement proposals.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 23:49:30 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 00:49:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Planetary exploration by telepresence
Message-ID: <CAL_armgQLOKXuGbsnhTHbCNNNybfv=f+iXsXvmoFsoSrOHoDdA@mail.gmail.com>

"Exploration telepresence" may virtually get people to Mars
Ben Coxworth June 22, 2017

<http://newatlas.com/exploration-telepresence/50170/>

Quote:

In a typical scenario, astronauts would travel to another planet, but
they wouldn't go down to its surface. Instead they would park their
ship in orbit around the planet, then send down telepresence robots.
The astronauts would be remotely controlling the robots from the ship,
seeing through their cameras and controlling their manipulator arms as
if they were there themselves. Because of the short transmission
distance involved, the communications lag would only be a fraction of
a second.

When the mission was over, the robots would simply be left behind.
------------------

This could be a useful interim method before self-controlled AI robots
are developed. And before a permanent base is established with all the
expensive gear needed to support humans.


BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 22 23:37:36 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:37:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj9-cpJSdtZjPi8wsBCZKvHvF3orBxVQOHSW8G9sQnsAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWFdaXm1WPJaDnmpvXx6S4Lu0yJncaL_1UzoGtgW1p-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj9-cpJSdtZjPi8wsBCZKvHvF3orBxVQOHSW8G9sQnsAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00c101d2ebb0$87e8ad30$97ba0790$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK



>...I haven't read much about a proposed ISS replacement.
A bit of searching just finds lots of 'hand-wavy' suggestions. Maybe a
Russian station using their module from the ISS, maybe a new Chinese
station...BillK
_______________________________________________


Oh dear no way.  You know what would happen: the astronauts would be up
there redistributing the wealth, to each according to his need-ing, and so
forth, then pretty soon the astronauts would get lazy and complacent,
pretend to work and the government would pretend to pay them, all that.  Bad
idea, bad.

spike



From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 22 20:58:23 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 16:58:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] voting
In-Reply-To: <D16109AA-9441-4A29-9718-D65EBDCA8313@sovacs.com>
References: <CABf9QbCVxHr0G2wuK4R28cmnEdd98zR746c-hDQzB_6vR4jS-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <D16109AA-9441-4A29-9718-D65EBDCA8313@sovacs.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fcYbSfT9JuCOeRomjCpn0yE_zKdon7TE21EiCn8fTXew@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Christian Saucier <csaucier at sovacs.com>
wrote:

> Zero Knowledge Cryptography to the rescue! The Zcash team has written a
> nice piece about it: https://z.cash/technology/zksnarks.html
>
> "Zero-knowledge proofs allow one party (the prover) to prove to another
> (the verifier) that a statement is true, without revealing any information
> beyond the validity of the statement itself. For example, given the hash of
> a random number, the prover could convince the verifier that there indeed
> exists a number with this hash value, without revealing what it is."
>
> This could be applied to the statement "I Voted" or "I Voted for Cthulhu"
> without having to reveal who you are.
>

Or use a blockchain:

   https://followmyvote.com/

-Dave
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 05:30:03 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 07:30:03 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.

Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
Moon and the planets can do that.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
> have seen what little comes of it.
>
> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>
> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>> start dreaming again.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>> >
>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>> >
>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>> > cause many to happen.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 05:49:30 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:49:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0AFEEA3D-05F9-4AD1-9A00-60CC874D1F4C@gmail.com>

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 6:06 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and,
> once it's there, will open many doors.

Then Hawking has it backwards: we need to work on making it less expensive rather than shooting for really big Apollo-like projects that drain budgets and raise costs.


> But don't dismiss the power of symbols. Apollo was all about
> flags and footprints, and everyone knew that.

I disagree. I wasn't a witness to that time, but from reading the histories it seems like space exploration was a bigger focus but there was also the Cold War. And from reading people from that time, I don't think they saw as let's just do a flags and footprints mission. They were demonstrating capabilities, doing geology, seeing how humans stood up to long-duration space travel, and the like. It seems to me that many of them were focused on doing much more than Apollo.

Add to this, there were some who argued against Apollo and wanted a space station _first_. IIRC, von Braun argued that way.


> Yet Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did
> great things, in space and in other sectors.

I believe Apollo made many folks think space is far too expensive and dangerous to be done by anything by a Manhattan Project approach.


> We need cheap access to space, and people like you are doing good
> things for that, but we also need to start dreaming again.


I don't think "we" ever stopped dreaming. The problem is to build foundations under our dreams. There either has to be some game-changing breakthrough or space has to get a helluva lot less expensive. The former is unpredictable. but the latter seems to be happening, especially with SpaceX's approach.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 05:50:01 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:50:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <00c101d2ebb0$87e8ad30$97ba0790$@att.net>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armihW3wCmvnNFqgdKV6OBXDnX56_zEaAmdEKgQCeg2q-8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRWFdaXm1WPJaDnmpvXx6S4Lu0yJncaL_1UzoGtgW1p-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armj9-cpJSdtZjPi8wsBCZKvHvF3orBxVQOHSW8G9sQnsAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00c101d2ebb0$87e8ad30$97ba0790$@att.net>
Message-ID: <F575E2C1-7640-44CE-9A25-1EE80900248F@gmail.com>

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 4:54 PM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> ...I haven't read much about a proposed ISS replacement.
>> A bit of searching just finds lots of 'hand-wavy' suggestions. Maybe a
>> Russian station using their module from the ISS, maybe a new Chinese
>> station...BillK

> Oh dear no way.  You know what would happen: the astronauts
> would be up there redistributing the wealth, to each according
> to his need-ing, and so forth, then pretty soon the astronauts
> would get lazy and complacent, pretend to work and the government
> would pretend to pay them, all that.  Bad idea, bad.


Earth to Spike (in case you're not joking), the mainland Chinese don't even seem close to dedicated Marxists these days.

Also, national and international space programs are not exactly free market operations. They are all about redistributed wealth from the tax base to aerospace firms. :)


Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 05:52:42 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 22:52:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>

Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.

The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
 That's a whole other kind of sexy.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>
> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
> Moon and the planets can do that.
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>
>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>
>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>> start dreaming again.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>> >
>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>> >
>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>> > cause many to happen.
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 06:12:51 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:12:51 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian, please repeat with me the magic word: AND. Repeat it like a
mantra, and, And, AND... it's really a magic word.

We need space industrialization. YES. We need cheap access to space.
YES. We need commercial space. YES. We need cubesats (YES). Cubecab is
awesome. YES!!! ;-)

AND we need to see people walking on the Moon to intoxicate us with
imagination highs and never ending dreams. YES. Otherwise, why should
a young and brilliant engineer want to work on space projects instead
of developing one more useless phone app and become an instant
millionaire?

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.
>
> The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
> rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
>  That's a whole other kind of sexy.
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
>> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
>> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
>> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
>> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
>> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>>
>> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
>> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
>> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
>> Moon and the planets can do that.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>>
>>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>>
>>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>>> start dreaming again.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>>> >
>>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>>> >
>>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>>> > cause many to happen.
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 06:16:36 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2017 23:16:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>

And...there's simply not enough money, or competent people, or time,
or whatever other necessary component to make all that happen at once.

So what can we focus on first, that will make the rest happen?

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Adrian, please repeat with me the magic word: AND. Repeat it like a
> mantra, and, And, AND... it's really a magic word.
>
> We need space industrialization. YES. We need cheap access to space.
> YES. We need commercial space. YES. We need cubesats (YES). Cubecab is
> awesome. YES!!! ;-)
>
> AND we need to see people walking on the Moon to intoxicate us with
> imagination highs and never ending dreams. YES. Otherwise, why should
> a young and brilliant engineer want to work on space projects instead
> of developing one more useless phone app and become an instant
> millionaire?
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.
>>
>> The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
>> rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
>>  That's a whole other kind of sexy.
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
>>> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
>>> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
>>> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
>>> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
>>> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>>>
>>> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
>>> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
>>> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
>>> Moon and the planets can do that.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>>>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>>>
>>>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>>>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>>>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>>>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>>>> start dreaming again.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>>>> > cause many to happen.
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 06:28:55 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:28:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>

spike: "ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything."

Yes. Specialty groups are needed to work out the details, but the big
wild fun party is where you develop the ideas to be elaborated upon.
Please don't tell me that we don't need big ideas. I agree with Thiel
and Stephenson, we seem to have lost the ability interest to think and
do big things.

I changed the title to emphasize that.

I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
dedicated phone app (a must these days)...

Thoughts?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:22 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:02 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] test
>
>>...The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research (thoughts forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it used to be. I wonder whether that means mailing lists have irreversibly joined the graveyard of social media, or we could come up with creative ideas to reload the list...
>
>
>
>
>
> Chat groups have specialized in the past 20 yrs.  The notion of posting actual sentences rather than tweeting about, what, 37 characters? is alive and well.  There are plenty of topics you can't really cover in 37 characters.  I leave that to the politicians: I have notions that just cannot fit in that space.
>
> Twenty yrs ago we used to spin off temporary subgroups, but ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything.  Now these specialty groups are permanent and have good focus.  I am in several of them myself, specifically about stuff I want to know about.
>
> I am surprised no one is posting about that new Intel chip or the new exos.  Perhaps fresh in my mind is the announcement of Kepler's first findings, oh boy that was a toe curler.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 06:47:06 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:47:06 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>

Good point. We don't need to see people walking on the Moon tomorrow.
But there must be credible plans to go back there to stay before our
generation logs off and the next becomes old.

The ESA "Moon Village" initiative looks great, but just don't trust EU
bureaucracy to get anything good done anytime soon. I am afraid the
Moon Village will get lost in committee after council meeting after
committee after budget cut and all that. The private sector should
step in. Musk has the heart in the right place, but I really think the
Moon is a much more affordable intermediate stepping stone.

Of course, the private sector asks where is the money. It's important
to find good answers.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> And...there's simply not enough money, or competent people, or time,
> or whatever other necessary component to make all that happen at once.
>
> So what can we focus on first, that will make the rest happen?
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Adrian, please repeat with me the magic word: AND. Repeat it like a
>> mantra, and, And, AND... it's really a magic word.
>>
>> We need space industrialization. YES. We need cheap access to space.
>> YES. We need commercial space. YES. We need cubesats (YES). Cubecab is
>> awesome. YES!!! ;-)
>>
>> AND we need to see people walking on the Moon to intoxicate us with
>> imagination highs and never ending dreams. YES. Otherwise, why should
>> a young and brilliant engineer want to work on space projects instead
>> of developing one more useless phone app and become an instant
>> millionaire?
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.
>>>
>>> The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
>>> rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
>>>  That's a whole other kind of sexy.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
>>>> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
>>>> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
>>>> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
>>>> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
>>>> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>>>>
>>>> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
>>>> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
>>>> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
>>>> Moon and the planets can do that.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>>>>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>>>>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>>>>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>>>>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>>>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>>>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>>>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>>>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>>>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>>>>> start dreaming again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>>>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>>>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>>>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>>>>> > cause many to happen.
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 07:20:55 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:20:55 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Planetary exploration by telepresence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgQLOKXuGbsnhTHbCNNNybfv=f+iXsXvmoFsoSrOHoDdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQLOKXuGbsnhTHbCNNNybfv=f+iXsXvmoFsoSrOHoDdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycaFeX1CJc6Z3=Ng0TH7TDEWL63g7xjX15-QFc+6H9M8g@mail.gmail.com>

This is a good paper, but is landing and staying for a while on, say,
Mars, really that more expensive than sending people to Mars orbit to
deploy and operate robots?

Perhaps yes, if we are obsessed about safety. But I would be happy to
volunteer for a Mars mission even if the probability to die there is
50%. Well, I'm too old for that anyway, but I'm sure there are plenty
of young, fit and qualified people who think that way.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 1:49 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> "Exploration telepresence" may virtually get people to Mars
> Ben Coxworth June 22, 2017
>
> <http://newatlas.com/exploration-telepresence/50170/>
>
> Quote:
>
> In a typical scenario, astronauts would travel to another planet, but
> they wouldn't go down to its surface. Instead they would park their
> ship in orbit around the planet, then send down telepresence robots.
> The astronauts would be remotely controlling the robots from the ship,
> seeing through their cameras and controlling their manipulator arms as
> if they were there themselves. Because of the short transmission
> distance involved, the communications lag would only be a fraction of
> a second.
>
> When the mission was over, the robots would simply be left behind.
> ------------------
>
> This could be a useful interim method before self-controlled AI robots
> are developed. And before a permanent base is established with all the
> expensive gear needed to support humans.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 09:30:48 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 11:30:48 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Extropians 1997: Max More and Nick Bostrom on transhumanism
	and religion
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfwg=0G_dgKCWY=RdifB2KO-52TCh2YzEveAJd5my_ifA@mail.gmail.com>

Extropians 1997: Max More and Nick Bostrom on transhumanism and religion

Browsing old Extropians mailing list posts I found a 1997 discussion
between Max More and Nick Bostrom, no less, including ?Christian
Transhumanism, Islamic Transhumanism, and (not too far from their
current beliefs) Mormon Transhumanism...?

Includes a love letter to the list.

https://turingchurch.net/extropians-1997-max-more-and-nick-bostrom-on-transhumanism-and-religion-61eb9285170b



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 23 10:06:57 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 03:06:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Planetary exploration by telepresence
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycaFeX1CJc6Z3=Ng0TH7TDEWL63g7xjX15-QFc+6H9M8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQLOKXuGbsnhTHbCNNNybfv=f+iXsXvmoFsoSrOHoDdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycaFeX1CJc6Z3=Ng0TH7TDEWL63g7xjX15-QFc+6H9M8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003601d2ec08$7379a090$5a6ce1b0$@att.net>

>... On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Subject: Re: [ExI] Planetary exploration by telepresence





>...This is a good paper, but is landing and staying for a while on, say,
Mars, really that more expensive than sending people to Mars orbit to deploy
and operate robots?

Landing and staying for a while on Mars is easier than this scenario if...
the plan is to stay on Mars forever.

You can do the weight calculations a hundred different ways, and always get
the same result: any humans to Mars scenario is a one-way trip.

>...Perhaps yes, if we are obsessed about safety. But I would be happy to
volunteer for a Mars mission even if the probability to die there is 50%...

What if the probability of dying there is 100%?

If you want a pretty good quick estimate of what it takes to soft land on
Mars, the rover Curiosity is a good example.  Curiosity was launched with
one of our heavies, the Atlas V.  It went thru that wicked-cool
aerobraking/retro-rocket/sky-crane maneuver to soft land (and my hat is off
to the controls engineers who worked out all that.)

Curiosity weighs about 900kg (or 2000 lb for Anglophiles.)  So: it costs an
Atlas V per ton soft-landed on Mars.  An Altas V is about 100 Megabucks
under kinda ideal conditions.

When you consider humans to Mars, start with what you hope to land there,
the capsule size, the life support requirements and so forth, then estimate
the mass, then Atlas V per ton, what kind of mission do you end up with?

This I can pretty much assure you: it is most unlikely you will be able to
soft land enough rocket to get you back out of that gravity well.  It's the
same conclusion I reached in 1989 when I first did these calcs, before the
Altas V existed and before we did any of these rovers, and the numbers come
out to about the same now as I had estimated then, for there are no
currently-known shortcuts: it will be a heavy launcher per ton soft-landed
on Mars.

My conclusion: any manned mission to Mars is one way, one very small person,
no going outdoors once you get there, life expectancy after arrival:
Giulio's first comment includes the phrase "staying for a while."  Ja, a
while.  Not all that long really.

That whole notion drew much ridicule at the time, but since then plenty of
others have reached the same conclusion for all the same reasons.

spike











From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 23 10:19:47 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 03:19:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Extropians 1997: Max More and Nick Bostrom on
	transhumanism	and religion
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfwg=0G_dgKCWY=RdifB2KO-52TCh2YzEveAJd5my_ifA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfwg=0G_dgKCWY=RdifB2KO-52TCh2YzEveAJd5my_ifA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003801d2ec0a$3e4541c0$bacfc540$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 2:31 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Extropians 1997: Max More and Nick Bostrom on transhumanism and religion

Extropians 1997: Max More and Nick Bostrom on transhumanism and religion

Browsing old Extropians mailing list posts I found a 1997 discussion between Max More and Nick Bostrom, no less, including ?Christian Transhumanism, Islamic Transhumanism, and (not too far from their current beliefs) Mormon Transhumanism...?

Includes a love letter to the list.

https://turingchurch.net/extropians-1997-max-more-and-nick-bostrom-on-transhumanism-and-religion-61eb9285170b




Cool!  There is reference to the Wired article, which I saw in 1994.  In the early 90s, Eric Drexler was giving occasional lectures in the area on nanotechnology.  I was a big fan of his and went to his talks every time I could.  He was referenced in the 1994 article, which caused me to subscribe to ExI and listen in for a couple years before posting anything.  Many fond memories I have of the wild 90s.

spike











From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 11:17:49 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:17:49 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Empathy problem - Should robots / AI look like humans /
	animals?
Message-ID: <CAL_armj6gy-iNwZszdn9KPEuB744hqXtYWQ+XD5=MkVD_mf5dw@mail.gmail.com>

GAMING EMPATHY

Is it unethical to design robots to resemble humans?
David Ryan Polgar  June 22, 2017

<https://qz.com/1010828/is-it-unethical-to-design-robots-to-resemble-humans/>

Quotes:
Human compassion is generally reserved for the living, and follows a
sliding scale that increases with how much awareness we believe a
being possesses. But in 2015, Japanese researchers found
neurophysiological evidence that humans feel empathy for robots
appearing to be in pain: Brain scans indicate that we have an
automatic visceral empathic reaction with both humans and objects that
look like humans.

That?s why many people cringe when they see Boston Dynamics? robotic
dog getting kicked.

If we decide to treat human-looking objects merely as objects, would
that eventually lead to us objectifying humans, too? It is unclear how
human compassion, or the lack thereof, toward AI will affect our IRL
relationships. But there is the worrisome possibility that our freedom
to treat human-seeming tech in any manner we like (all the way from
being rude to physical abuse and sex-without-will) may transfer to
normalizing those actions in our human relationships. In other words,
society?s push toward humanizing AI could have the unintended
consequence of the dehumanization of actual humans.
-------------

This reminds me of a reported incident (details may be incorrect)
where a multi-legged robot was being demonstrated to a US general. As
they shot at it and gradually disabled it, the crippled machine still
struggled to continue the mission. Eventually the general stopped the
demonstration as he couldn't stand to watch the machine 'suffering'
any more.

I think this should be an important problem for designers to consider.

BillK



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 23 14:19:48 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 07:19:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Empathy problem - Should robots / AI look like humans
	/	animals?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armj6gy-iNwZszdn9KPEuB744hqXtYWQ+XD5=MkVD_mf5dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armj6gy-iNwZszdn9KPEuB744hqXtYWQ+XD5=MkVD_mf5dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01d2ec2b$c64fe7c0$52efb740$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK

GAMING EMPATHY

Is it unethical to design robots to resemble humans?
David Ryan Polgar  June 22, 2017

<https://qz.com/1010828/is-it-unethical-to-design-robots-to-resemble-humans/>

...

That?s why many people cringe when they see Boston Dynamics? robotic dog getting kicked.

...
-------------

>... a multi-legged robot was being demonstrated to a US general. As they shot at it and gradually disabled it, the crippled machine still struggled to continue the mission. Eventually the general stopped the demonstration as he couldn't stand to watch the machine 'suffering'
any more.

>...BillK

_______________________________________________


The test is what happened to the Star Wars Rogue One audience.

Anyone who did not weep when Chirrut Imwe died has no heart.

Anyone who did not weep when K2SO died in has no brain.

spike




From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 14:18:29 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 10:18:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2emVMz8-+TKBOPqKfqtrS7KTPdMk9fBf1GAyCNG=m5wHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:28 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
> this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
> of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
> format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
> dedicated phone app (a must these days)...
>
> Thoughts?
>

How about Slack? I've created an Extropy team to play with. If you want to
join I'll have to send you an invitation. I'll invite you and Spike.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 15:53:14 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 08:53:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT4zMuJcoZ_vmt-_+fmiGS58gZpeMgNNBAqo-XCwFin6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:49 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian, post away, me lad.  If anyone complains, we will review.  In this case I would be very surprised if anyone complains.

CubeCab now has a signed, tentative agreement to launch 1,000
satellites from ThumbSat.  (Small satellites, roughly 20 amounting to
a 1U so this is the equivalent of 50 1Us, but still.)  This compares
to:

* The Space Shuttle fleet's 140 total flights (including the 2
disasters and the 5 Enterprise test flights), across its entire
multi-decade career.

* The current world record for the number of satellites on one launch:
ISRO's 104 this past February (which was itself a monumental
achievement).

* The increasing demand for CubeSat-and-smaller satellite launches, as
measured by the number launched per year (about 100 for each of the
past few years depending on how you measure it, after subtracting
launch failures).

Now to see if that qualifies as a sufficient indication of interest.


From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 23 16:48:11 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 09:48:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT4zMuJcoZ_vmt-_+fmiGS58gZpeMgNNBAqo-XCwFin6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01df01d2ea26$ef2d35a0$cd87a0e0$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNRG-5aZodO+4CjBqbV-EcmwsHRDHSCjv7vgdCRWKkkA7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <028d01d2ea41$72fe2dc0$58fa8940$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNT4zMuJcoZ_vmt-_+fmiGS58gZpeMgNNBAqo-XCwFin6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ac01d2ec40$82742ec0$875c8c40$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2017 8:53 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:49 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Adrian, post away, me lad.  If anyone complains, we will review.  In this
case I would be very surprised if anyone complains.

CubeCab now has a signed, tentative agreement to launch 1,000 satellites
from ThumbSat.  (Small satellites, roughly 20 amounting to a 1U so this is
the equivalent of 50 1Us, but still.)  This compares
to:

* The Space Shuttle fleet's 140 total flights (including the 2 disasters and
the 5 Enterprise test flights), across its entire multi-decade career.

* The current world record for the number of satellites on one launch:
ISRO's 104 this past February (which was itself a monumental achievement).

* The increasing demand for CubeSat-and-smaller satellite launches, as
measured by the number launched per year (about 100 for each of the past few
years depending on how you measure it, after subtracting launch failures).

Now to see if that qualifies as a sufficient indication of interest.
_______________________________________________


HEY who's the yahoo posting commercial material on ExI?

Oh wait, retract, never mind...

{8^D

This is really cool Adrian!  Good luck to CubeCab.  I do sincerely hope you
guys make a cubic buttload of money, and if so we get lots of cool apps and
science out of those payloads.

spike



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 17:38:45 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 10:38:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>

Then here, once again, is my plan for this:

1) Find a high-valuable-metal-content asteroid of sufficient mass,
preferably in an orbit that makes step 2 convenient.

2) Move it into the Earth-Moon system.  (Possibly GEO - there's an
unused swath over the Pacific, and GEO may be as close as politically
feasible - but anywhere no further than the Moon will suffice.)

3) Set up a mining camp, start extracting the easiest-to-extract
chunks, land them on Earth, and sell them to achieve first revenue.
Aggressively ignore the pundits who howl that the only profitable use
of resources in orbit must be in orbit, but who can't point to
specific buyers with nearly as much to spend as, say, the platinum
commodity market.  Accept that first sales of these minerals will
start crashing the market; getting to first revenue ASAP is critical
to getting the funding to have gotten this far.

4) Use the profits to expand the mining camp, eventually using the
slag to make a disc around 100 m thick and 1-2 km diameter.  Fill it
with air, line the outer rim of the disc with hydroponics (for food,
primary air and water recycling, and radiation shielding), spin the
disc so it reaches 1G above the hydroponics (where people will
reside), and otherwise make it habitable.  Possibly set up automated
lunar mining - maybe railgunning cargo up to the mining facility - as
part of this.

5) Once the colony has been sufficiently tested that people can trust
their lives to it, evacuate the mining camp into the mining colony.
By this point some museums may be willing to buy the remnants of the
camp, if it can be deorbited sufficiently intact.

6) Use profits to expand the colony, setting up secondary services
(health, education, and so on), encouraging other users (such as
national & international space science efforts) to lease part of the
facility.

7) Once the colony gets populated enough, lengthen the disc into a
cylinder.  (Construct a shell for the extra volume, spin it up and
attach it to one side, pressurize it and verify airtightness, extend
hydroponics along the "floor" of the new space, then dismantle the
now-internal bulkhead.)

8) Press on to at least 10,000 people, the absolute minimum to have
any chance of being generally recognized as a true city in space.
More is better, of course.  (3 or even 10 actually in space is just a
few people camping, no matter how many still on Earth support them.
Even 100 or 1,000 is a mere facility, under the laws of a sponsoring
Earth-bound government.)

9) Probably around 5 km long, stop lengthening the cylinder and start
making a second one, spinning in the other direction but linked by a
hub (which will cause the natural political shape to be different
districts in the same city, or different states in the same nation,
but not different nations that might someday war upon one another).
Once the second cylinder starts filling up, make more cylinders in
counter-rotating pairs.

None of this assumes that there will be any other significant economic
generator in space.  There probably will, of course, but assuming they
will and relying on that means you can't get the resources to start.

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good point. We don't need to see people walking on the Moon tomorrow.
> But there must be credible plans to go back there to stay before our
> generation logs off and the next becomes old.
>
> The ESA "Moon Village" initiative looks great, but just don't trust EU
> bureaucracy to get anything good done anytime soon. I am afraid the
> Moon Village will get lost in committee after council meeting after
> committee after budget cut and all that. The private sector should
> step in. Musk has the heart in the right place, but I really think the
> Moon is a much more affordable intermediate stepping stone.
>
> Of course, the private sector asks where is the money. It's important
> to find good answers.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> And...there's simply not enough money, or competent people, or time,
>> or whatever other necessary component to make all that happen at once.
>>
>> So what can we focus on first, that will make the rest happen?
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Adrian, please repeat with me the magic word: AND. Repeat it like a
>>> mantra, and, And, AND... it's really a magic word.
>>>
>>> We need space industrialization. YES. We need cheap access to space.
>>> YES. We need commercial space. YES. We need cubesats (YES). Cubecab is
>>> awesome. YES!!! ;-)
>>>
>>> AND we need to see people walking on the Moon to intoxicate us with
>>> imagination highs and never ending dreams. YES. Otherwise, why should
>>> a young and brilliant engineer want to work on space projects instead
>>> of developing one more useless phone app and become an instant
>>> millionaire?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.
>>>>
>>>> The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
>>>> rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
>>>>  That's a whole other kind of sexy.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
>>>>> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
>>>>> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
>>>>> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
>>>>> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
>>>>> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
>>>>> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
>>>>> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
>>>>> Moon and the planets can do that.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>>>>>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>>>>>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>>>>>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>>>>>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>>>>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>>>>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>>>>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>>>>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>>>>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>>>>>> start dreaming again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>>>>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>>>>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>>>>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>>>>>> > cause many to happen.
>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 19:22:58 2017
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:22:58 -0300
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <828abd5b-c615-0f10-92ec-899fe8bf0e4a@gmail.com>

Facebook.. eeeew. Facebook's format is not conductive to discussion. 
Reddit would be more suitable with its tree-like comments.

Mastodon is getting a lot of hype these days, but I suspect it wouldn't 
be good either.

On 23/06/2017 03:28, Giulio Prisco wrote:
> spike: "ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything."
>
> Yes. Specialty groups are needed to work out the details, but the big
> wild fun party is where you develop the ideas to be elaborated upon.
> Please don't tell me that we don't need big ideas. I agree with Thiel
> and Stephenson, we seem to have lost the ability interest to think and
> do big things.
>
> I changed the title to emphasize that.
>
> I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
> this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
> of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
> format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
> dedicated phone app (a must these days)...
>
> Thoughts?
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:22 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:02 AM
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] test
>>
>>> ...The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research (thoughts forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it used to be. I wonder whether that means mailing lists have irreversibly joined the graveyard of social media, or we could come up with creative ideas to reload the list...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Chat groups have specialized in the past 20 yrs.  The notion of posting actual sentences rather than tweeting about, what, 37 characters? is alive and well.  There are plenty of topics you can't really cover in 37 characters.  I leave that to the politicians: I have notions that just cannot fit in that space.
>>
>> Twenty yrs ago we used to spin off temporary subgroups, but ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything.  Now these specialty groups are permanent and have good focus.  I am in several of them myself, specifically about stuff I want to know about.
>>
>> I am surprised no one is posting about that new Intel chip or the new exos.  Perhaps fresh in my mind is the announcement of Kepler's first findings, oh boy that was a toe curler.
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 19:30:40 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 12:30:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Planetary exploration by telepresence
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSpi8HgZrR3BTRUrke6X=rAh2Gnu-K56iX-ebF2OjsRxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armgQLOKXuGbsnhTHbCNNNybfv=f+iXsXvmoFsoSrOHoDdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJycaFeX1CJc6Z3=Ng0TH7TDEWL63g7xjX15-QFc+6H9M8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTn9c9Xf5G5x35L_jnU0j=QYsVSUw5_VVBStgoGj1UPnw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSpi8HgZrR3BTRUrke6X=rAh2Gnu-K56iX-ebF2OjsRxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRavgwJLkVzZB4CwRfHEeV05O2xcKp+5S2FBQP=0B7pzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017 12:22 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

This is a good paper, but is landing and staying for a while on, say,
Mars, really that more expensive than sending people to Mars orbit to
deploy and operate robots?


Yes, if the first option is just sending robots.

Even ignoring safety and return considerations (which are too large to
practically ignore), sending a human means sending life support, means
sending several tons - and, possibly, resupply missions - that would
otherwise be unnecessary.  Sending extra tons to Mars is expensive.
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 19:32:34 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 15:32:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> It now seems that vets are committing suicide at the rate of 20 or so a
> day.  More Vietnam vets have done so than died in combat there.
>
> The VA promises to cut waiting time, is being reorganized, is underfunded,
> etc.
>
> I am not a vet but was a clinical psychologist in part, and it seems that
> vets and PTSD is being treated like mental illness - i.e. like please just
> go away, I don't want to think about you.
>
> Sapolsky, whose book I have finished and will review shortly, says that
> brain images had to be shown to Congress so that they understand that a
> disease is there, not just some wimpy guys crying themselves to sleep at
> night.
>
> Outside of the mentally ill, I just don't know of a group that deserves
> far, far more attention than these vets.  Alcoholism, drug addiction,
> homelessness, are rampant.
>
> Why would anyone want to go fight a war for the USA?  Especially in
> unwinnable wars like we have now.
>
>
How many of those vets are also among the statistics for opioid-related
deaths? I'm not asking to isolate the groups as much as identify that there
are confounding factors that make single-symptom treatments unlikely to be
effective.  If we start considering the extenuating circumstances for each
demographic (or vets specifically) we will probably find a bunch of reasons
that are obscured behind a one-size/one-problem sound bite.
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 19:43:45 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 15:43:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>

I think we should work on the vet problem by ending the wars we're
fighting, closing bases on foreign soil, drastically cutting the military
budget, and improving the VA.

But that won't happen, obviously.

-Dave

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It now seems that vets are committing suicide at the rate of 20 or so a
>> day.  More Vietnam vets have done so than died in combat there.
>>
>> The VA promises to cut waiting time, is being reorganized, is
>> underfunded, etc.
>>
>> I am not a vet but was a clinical psychologist in part, and it seems that
>> vets and PTSD is being treated like mental illness - i.e. like please just
>> go away, I don't want to think about you.
>>
>> Sapolsky, whose book I have finished and will review shortly, says that
>> brain images had to be shown to Congress so that they understand that a
>> disease is there, not just some wimpy guys crying themselves to sleep at
>> night.
>>
>> Outside of the mentally ill, I just don't know of a group that deserves
>> far, far more attention than these vets.  Alcoholism, drug addiction,
>> homelessness, are rampant.
>>
>> Why would anyone want to go fight a war for the USA?  Especially in
>> unwinnable wars like we have now.
>>
>>
> How many of those vets are also among the statistics for opioid-related
> deaths? I'm not asking to isolate the groups as much as identify that there
> are confounding factors that make single-symptom treatments unlikely to be
> effective.  If we start considering the extenuating circumstances for each
> demographic (or vets specifically) we will probably find a bunch of reasons
> that are obscured behind a one-size/one-problem sound bite.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 20:08:08 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 13:08:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99236946-63CC-438B-B736-4E1844D7308D@gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017, at 12:43 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think we should work on the vet problem by ending the wars we're fighting, closing bases on foreign soil, drastically cutting the military budget, and improving the VA.
> 
> But that won't happen, obviously.

Never say never. The Soviet empire, for example, did fall -- despite few people seeing that coming a year or two before it happened.

By the way, aside from vets, what about the foreign victims of US policy? Or don't they matter? (Not directed at you, Dave.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 20:11:47 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 15:11:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mike wrote;   we will probably find a bunch of reasons that are obscured
behind a one-size/one-problem sound bite.

It would take a lot of research to determine what you want to know.  I will
assume that more homeless vets committed suicide than others; that the
homeless ones were more likely to be addicted to alcohol and/or drugs - and
so on.

None of that makes any difference to me.  They need all kinds of help and
they are mostly not getting it from our government, which implicitly
promised them that.  If we could get them housed ,we could start dealing
with addiction, PTSD, and other problems.  Not since WWII have vets been
greeted by the rest of us as returning heroes.  Is it because we knew that
those wars were mistakes?  And none of them won?  Not the fault of the
vets.

Re wars:  has there been a defensible one since WWII?  No.
What will the Repubs get us into now so that their military industrial
complex buddies can make more billions?

bill w

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we should work on the vet problem by ending the wars we're
> fighting, closing bases on foreign soil, drastically cutting the military
> budget, and improving the VA.
>
> But that won't happen, obviously.
>
> -Dave
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:19 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It now seems that vets are committing suicide at the rate of 20 or so a
>>> day.  More Vietnam vets have done so than died in combat there.
>>>
>>> The VA promises to cut waiting time, is being reorganized, is
>>> underfunded, etc.
>>>
>>> I am not a vet but was a clinical psychologist in part, and it seems
>>> that vets and PTSD is being treated like mental illness - i.e. like please
>>> just go away, I don't want to think about you.
>>>
>>> Sapolsky, whose book I have finished and will review shortly, says that
>>> brain images had to be shown to Congress so that they understand that a
>>> disease is there, not just some wimpy guys crying themselves to sleep at
>>> night.
>>>
>>> Outside of the mentally ill, I just don't know of a group that deserves
>>> far, far more attention than these vets.  Alcoholism, drug addiction,
>>> homelessness, are rampant.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone want to go fight a war for the USA?  Especially in
>>> unwinnable wars like we have now.
>>>
>>>
>> How many of those vets are also among the statistics for opioid-related
>> deaths? I'm not asking to isolate the groups as much as identify that there
>> are confounding factors that make single-symptom treatments unlikely to be
>> effective.  If we start considering the extenuating circumstances for each
>> demographic (or vets specifically) we will probably find a bunch of reasons
>> that are obscured behind a one-size/one-problem sound bite.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 20:15:48 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 13:15:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTUeST+FtcNZNOsEBa9dwEk4Vctxe=mMxec-mW6Jh49Ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Jun 22, 2017 11:30 PM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

spike: "ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much
anything."

Yes. Specialty groups are needed to work out the details, but the big
wild fun party is where you develop the ideas to be elaborated upon.
Please don't tell me that we don't need big ideas. I agree with Thiel
and Stephenson, we seem to have lost the ability interest to think and
do big things.

I changed the title to emphasize that.

I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
dedicated phone app (a must these days)...

Thoughts?


Email with a publicly accessible archive, for all its vaunted unhipness,
remains publicly accessible and discoverable like few other formats.  Most
of the alternatives are private walled gardens, content generally
inaccessible to outsiders.  I am on at least one list with a peak volume
over the past year of over 100 posts per day.  If the concern is getting
active posters, the solution is advertising to bring in fresh blood - and
then cooling it with the repeated celebrations of the group in the '90s,
which suggest (unintentionally, but they do) that anyone who wasn't here
back then doesn't belong here now.  Instead bring up topics of current
interest.

For example, what are good tactics for the Transhumanist Party in light of
current political situations - and will it ever truly be more than Zoltan's
bid for the US Presidency?  Can it gather and succesfully run candidates in
districts getting screwed by their current Republican representatives,
which districts see the Democratic party as even worse: hopelessly corrupt
and out of touch with those districts' interests?  (How can a transhumanist
viewpoint help an out of work coal miner who needs a new income source,
preferably a new job, ASAP?  There are ways, but they must be communicated.)

As for thinking big, there are so many big projects all around us that we
stop noticing, and because we stop noticing we think maybe they aren't
there.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects - and if
those don't strike you as "big", consider whether you're just moving the
goalposts to justify complaining.  Can you honestly call any one of the
things on that long list "small" relative to our day to day experience?
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 21:16:10 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 22:16:10 +0100
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 June 2017 at 21:11, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
<snip>
> Re wars:  has there been a defensible one since WWII?  No.
> What will the Repubs get us into now so that their military industrial
> complex buddies can make more billions?
>

Why the snide remark about the Repubs?
The Dems did the same.
The military industrial complex don't care what political religion is in power.
Makes little difference to them enriching themselves.

After all, it all helps the USA GDP statistics.
Produce war material, then blow it up abroad somewhere, then produce more.
The equivalent of digging holes, then filling them in again.
Great for business.  :(

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 21:30:33 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 14:30:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017, at 2:16 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23 June 2017 at 21:11, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
>> <snip>
>> Re wars:  has there been a defensible one since WWII?  No.
>> What will the Repubs get us into now so that their military industrial
>> complex buddies can make more billions?
> 
> Why the snide remark about the Repubs?
> The Dems did the same.
> The military industrial complex don't care what political religion is in power.
> Makes little difference to them enriching themselves.

Right. If the MIC were a partisan concern, then we'd likely have seen far fewer wars and then only when one party is in power. Instead, we see even so called peace candidates and Nobel Peace Prize winners supporting ever more military intervention.

> After all, it all helps the USA GDP statistics.
> Produce war material, then blow it up abroad somewhere, then produce more.
> The equivalent of digging holes, then filling them in again.
> Great for business.  :(

It's good for certain business, yes, though bad for the economy as a whole. A net loss along the lines of the broken window fallacy -- not to mention all those innocent foreigners killed in the process.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 22:47:54 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 17:47:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>

billk wrote:  Why the snide remark about the Repubs?

Because they are in now. Because of Bush Jr.  Because of Nixon.  Yeah,
there was Clinton.

Re foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as shown by our
name for them:  collateral damage.

bill w

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2017, at 2:16 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 23 June 2017 at 21:11, William Flynn Wallace  wrote:
> <snip>
>
> Re wars:  has there been a defensible one since WWII?  No.
>
> What will the Repubs get us into now so that their military industrial
>
> complex buddies can make more billions?
>
>
> Why the snide remark about the Repubs?
> The Dems did the same.
> The military industrial complex don't care what political religion is in
> power.
> Makes little difference to them enriching themselves.
>
>
> Right. If the MIC were a partisan concern, then we'd likely have seen far
> fewer wars and then only when one party is in power. Instead, we see even
> so called peace candidates and Nobel Peace Prize winners supporting ever
> more military intervention.
>
> After all, it all helps the USA GDP statistics.
> Produce war material, then blow it up abroad somewhere, then produce more.
> The equivalent of digging holes, then filling them in again.
> Great for business.  :(
>
>
> It's good for certain business, yes, though bad for the economy as a
> whole. A net loss along the lines of the broken window fallacy -- not to
> mention all those innocent foreigners killed in the process.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 23 23:33:09 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 16:33:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017, at 3:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> billk wrote:  Why the snide remark about the Repubs?
> 
> Because they are in now. Because of Bush Jr.  Because of Nixon.  Yeah, there was Clinton.

Rest assured, when the Democrats are in, the wars will continue -- as we saw under Obama recently. (And given her comments, had Clinton won, she'd have been slung her share of warmongering.) The War Party is bipartisan. 

> Re foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.

I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's foreign policy (that is, militarism).

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 01:08:23 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 20:08:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYqHnqw2_zRPJxXTGK1hEGGKQX3Nmr+qNFQLTWjUuhRPQ@mail.gmail.com>

bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as
shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.


I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is on
all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
foreign policy (that is, militarism).

Dan

I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone
  would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill w


On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 6:33 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2017, at 3:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> billk wrote:  Why the snide remark about the Repubs?
>
> Because they are in now. Because of Bush Jr.  Because of Nixon.  Yeah,
> there was Clinton.
>
>
> Rest assured, when the Democrats are in, the wars will continue -- as we
> saw under Obama recently. (And given her comments, had Clinton won, she'd
> have been slung her share of warmongering.) The War Party is bipartisan.
>
> Re foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as shown by our
> name for them:  collateral damage.
>
>
> I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is
> on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
> foreign policy (that is, militarism).
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 01:33:50 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 18:33:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYqHnqw2_zRPJxXTGK1hEGGKQX3Nmr+qNFQLTWjUuhRPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fbaSqj3VBDNS1n1k1QPcDFBNyViE9JG6wAyfffpW5PRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYRHdfH84Wmr2gFpS3rHE3+C2gMD=dsu9XRWzH4RebkCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYqHnqw2_zRPJxXTGK1hEGGKQX3Nmr+qNFQLTWjUuhRPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78E67CE1-0CA9-4051-B465-CAB7F364C499@gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017, at 6:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.
> 
> I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's foreign policy (that is, militarism).
> 
> Dan
> 
> I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone 
>   would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill wL
> 


Do you imagine that might be interpreted as an insult?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 01:36:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2017 20:36:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>

I think what has to happen for anything to change is to find a likely
candidate and pour tens of millions into his fund, and start a new
political party.  George Wallace, no relation, did pretty good with
"There's not a dime's worth of difference"  Re the two parties.

Ideally you get a good name for the party 'Real Choice' is my submission,
and get grassroots started, though now you have to start in the sky, not
the ground.

By the way, I am not a Democrat, though as a liberal I have little choice,
don't you think?

Put this guy/woman on the campaign trail now!  It likely takes years to
form a Dixiecrat sort of thing, if I remember my history correctly.  Center
left, suits me; center right I could stand.  No radicals which attract as
many as they scare, if that.

The thing is to me, as a social psychologist, that the most important thing
is name recognition, and you can buy that on TV, as they will cover
anything.  Next is a motto, beat into everyone's head for years.  Find a
few candidates for the election in a year and a half if possible.

Don't have planks.  Be vague at all costs. You want sound bites, not
details easily argued with, which give away your strategy.  You have to
keep it simple, because there are more simple people than anyone else.  I
do read the liberals are very likely to stay home and not vote because they
are disgusted.  We need them back - but at all costs keep away from those
radical liberals professors.  One of those supporting you is like a dagger
in your back.

Hire a Hollywood agent to do the publicity part - bread and circuses always
works.

Assemble a team of experts on every subject; mixture of left and right,
libertarian and authoritarian.

It is sad that George Wallace was shot before we could see how much
difference he made.  But do you think the people are as aroused as you have
ever seen them?  I do.  Give them direction and they will recruit for you.
Some will beg to let them contribute in some way.

I am not kidding:  if this every works, we will see more votes than ever
cast before.

Alternative - I am behind Warren; lots and lots of people wanted a woman
but not Hillary; not ready for a black, though if I had had the chance I
would have voted for Barbara Jordan.

bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 07:36:29 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 09:36:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
In-Reply-To: <828abd5b-c615-0f10-92ec-899fe8bf0e4a@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <828abd5b-c615-0f10-92ec-899fe8bf0e4a@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydtw3M1YrGXq-eVBQPC-FKQxcyfWWsYAmJ-QOJUpUwveA@mail.gmail.com>

I like Reddit (the system) a lot, but Reddit (the company) much less.
They could decide to take down a subreddit if there are complaints by
thought cops. But the Reddit software is open source, so it could be
installed on a dedicated extropy server.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 9:22 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado
<cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
> Facebook.. eeeew. Facebook's format is not conductive to discussion. Reddit
> would be more suitable with its tree-like comments.
>
> Mastodon is getting a lot of hype these days, but I suspect it wouldn't be
> good either.
>
>
> On 23/06/2017 03:28, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>>
>> spike: "ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much
>> anything."
>>
>> Yes. Specialty groups are needed to work out the details, but the big
>> wild fun party is where you develop the ideas to be elaborated upon.
>> Please don't tell me that we don't need big ideas. I agree with Thiel
>> and Stephenson, we seem to have lost the ability interest to think and
>> do big things.
>>
>> I changed the title to emphasize that.
>>
>> I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
>> this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
>> of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
>> format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
>> dedicated phone app (a must these days)...
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:22 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:02 AM
>>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] test
>>>
>>>> ...The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle
>>>> moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in
>>>> particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research (thoughts
>>>> forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it used to be. I
>>>> wonder whether that means mailing lists have irreversibly joined the
>>>> graveyard of social media, or we could come up with creative ideas to reload
>>>> the list...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chat groups have specialized in the past 20 yrs.  The notion of posting
>>> actual sentences rather than tweeting about, what, 37 characters? is alive
>>> and well.  There are plenty of topics you can't really cover in 37
>>> characters.  I leave that to the politicians: I have notions that just
>>> cannot fit in that space.
>>>
>>> Twenty yrs ago we used to spin off temporary subgroups, but ExI was a big
>>> wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything.  Now these
>>> specialty groups are permanent and have good focus.  I am in several of them
>>> myself, specifically about stuff I want to know about.
>>>
>>> I am surprised no one is posting about that new Intel chip or the new
>>> exos.  Perhaps fresh in my mind is the announcement of Kepler's first
>>> findings, oh boy that was a toe curler.
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 07:45:33 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 09:45:33 +0200
Subject: [ExI] MAKE THE LIST (AND THE WORLD) GREAT AGAIN !!!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydtw3M1YrGXq-eVBQPC-FKQxcyfWWsYAmJ-QOJUpUwveA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyd7m60J+oQtF9ZpP-pNGpCYB3Eh2PSZkwTZrpf_-qpfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <828abd5b-c615-0f10-92ec-899fe8bf0e4a@gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydtw3M1YrGXq-eVBQPC-FKQxcyfWWsYAmJ-QOJUpUwveA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyexcpNn1LprguZZpOYodFivwhTmDQOu2ttrWkopErV70w@mail.gmail.com>

Another nice and modern system is Discourse, used for example by BoingBoing:
https://bbs.boingboing.net/

It has an email interface so I believe it could support a two-way
bridge with Mailman (the mailing list software used here).

Anyone interested in doing a test?

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> I like Reddit (the system) a lot, but Reddit (the company) much less.
> They could decide to take down a subreddit if there are complaints by
> thought cops. But the Reddit software is open source, so it could be
> installed on a dedicated extropy server.
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 9:22 PM, Henrique Moraes Machado
> <cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Facebook.. eeeew. Facebook's format is not conductive to discussion. Reddit
>> would be more suitable with its tree-like comments.
>>
>> Mastodon is getting a lot of hype these days, but I suspect it wouldn't be
>> good either.
>>
>>
>> On 23/06/2017 03:28, Giulio Prisco wrote:
>>>
>>> spike: "ExI was a big wild fun party where you could post pretty much
>>> anything."
>>>
>>> Yes. Specialty groups are needed to work out the details, but the big
>>> wild fun party is where you develop the ideas to be elaborated upon.
>>> Please don't tell me that we don't need big ideas. I agree with Thiel
>>> and Stephenson, we seem to have lost the ability interest to think and
>>> do big things.
>>>
>>> I changed the title to emphasize that.
>>>
>>> I suspect mailing lists just don't cut these days. Yes, Max said that
>>> this list must not become a Facebook group or something like that, and
>>> of course here Max is right by definition, but I wonder if some new
>>> format would help. Something with a very fast and easy interface, a
>>> dedicated phone app (a must these days)...
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:22 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:02 AM
>>>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [ExI] test
>>>>
>>>>> ...The list is certainly alive, but it's going through one of those idle
>>>>> moments. I have been looking at the list archives of 20 years ago, in
>>>>> particular one very interesting thread I found doing some research (thoughts
>>>>> forthcoming), and yes, the list today is a ghost of what it used to be. I
>>>>> wonder whether that means mailing lists have irreversibly joined the
>>>>> graveyard of social media, or we could come up with creative ideas to reload
>>>>> the list...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chat groups have specialized in the past 20 yrs.  The notion of posting
>>>> actual sentences rather than tweeting about, what, 37 characters? is alive
>>>> and well.  There are plenty of topics you can't really cover in 37
>>>> characters.  I leave that to the politicians: I have notions that just
>>>> cannot fit in that space.
>>>>
>>>> Twenty yrs ago we used to spin off temporary subgroups, but ExI was a big
>>>> wild fun party where you could post pretty much anything.  Now these
>>>> specialty groups are permanent and have good focus.  I am in several of them
>>>> myself, specifically about stuff I want to know about.
>>>>
>>>> I am surprised no one is posting about that new Intel chip or the new
>>>> exos.  Perhaps fresh in my mind is the announcement of Kepler's first
>>>> findings, oh boy that was a toe curler.
>>>>
>>>> spike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 07:51:24 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 09:51:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJycn+eA8zufDnU07PgxM+8wjKFj2omBsaFh53+bs2ts3ZA@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like a plan, I love it. Is there any project to do that, with a
feasibility study and some funding?

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Then here, once again, is my plan for this:
>
> 1) Find a high-valuable-metal-content asteroid of sufficient mass,
> preferably in an orbit that makes step 2 convenient.
>
> 2) Move it into the Earth-Moon system.  (Possibly GEO - there's an
> unused swath over the Pacific, and GEO may be as close as politically
> feasible - but anywhere no further than the Moon will suffice.)
>
> 3) Set up a mining camp, start extracting the easiest-to-extract
> chunks, land them on Earth, and sell them to achieve first revenue.
> Aggressively ignore the pundits who howl that the only profitable use
> of resources in orbit must be in orbit, but who can't point to
> specific buyers with nearly as much to spend as, say, the platinum
> commodity market.  Accept that first sales of these minerals will
> start crashing the market; getting to first revenue ASAP is critical
> to getting the funding to have gotten this far.
>
> 4) Use the profits to expand the mining camp, eventually using the
> slag to make a disc around 100 m thick and 1-2 km diameter.  Fill it
> with air, line the outer rim of the disc with hydroponics (for food,
> primary air and water recycling, and radiation shielding), spin the
> disc so it reaches 1G above the hydroponics (where people will
> reside), and otherwise make it habitable.  Possibly set up automated
> lunar mining - maybe railgunning cargo up to the mining facility - as
> part of this.
>
> 5) Once the colony has been sufficiently tested that people can trust
> their lives to it, evacuate the mining camp into the mining colony.
> By this point some museums may be willing to buy the remnants of the
> camp, if it can be deorbited sufficiently intact.
>
> 6) Use profits to expand the colony, setting up secondary services
> (health, education, and so on), encouraging other users (such as
> national & international space science efforts) to lease part of the
> facility.
>
> 7) Once the colony gets populated enough, lengthen the disc into a
> cylinder.  (Construct a shell for the extra volume, spin it up and
> attach it to one side, pressurize it and verify airtightness, extend
> hydroponics along the "floor" of the new space, then dismantle the
> now-internal bulkhead.)
>
> 8) Press on to at least 10,000 people, the absolute minimum to have
> any chance of being generally recognized as a true city in space.
> More is better, of course.  (3 or even 10 actually in space is just a
> few people camping, no matter how many still on Earth support them.
> Even 100 or 1,000 is a mere facility, under the laws of a sponsoring
> Earth-bound government.)
>
> 9) Probably around 5 km long, stop lengthening the cylinder and start
> making a second one, spinning in the other direction but linked by a
> hub (which will cause the natural political shape to be different
> districts in the same city, or different states in the same nation,
> but not different nations that might someday war upon one another).
> Once the second cylinder starts filling up, make more cylinders in
> counter-rotating pairs.
>
> None of this assumes that there will be any other significant economic
> generator in space.  There probably will, of course, but assuming they
> will and relying on that means you can't get the resources to start.
>
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good point. We don't need to see people walking on the Moon tomorrow.
>> But there must be credible plans to go back there to stay before our
>> generation logs off and the next becomes old.
>>
>> The ESA "Moon Village" initiative looks great, but just don't trust EU
>> bureaucracy to get anything good done anytime soon. I am afraid the
>> Moon Village will get lost in committee after council meeting after
>> committee after budget cut and all that. The private sector should
>> step in. Musk has the heart in the right place, but I really think the
>> Moon is a much more affordable intermediate stepping stone.
>>
>> Of course, the private sector asks where is the money. It's important
>> to find good answers.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:16 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> And...there's simply not enough money, or competent people, or time,
>>> or whatever other necessary component to make all that happen at once.
>>>
>>> So what can we focus on first, that will make the rest happen?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:12 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Adrian, please repeat with me the magic word: AND. Repeat it like a
>>>> mantra, and, And, AND... it's really a magic word.
>>>>
>>>> We need space industrialization. YES. We need cheap access to space.
>>>> YES. We need commercial space. YES. We need cubesats (YES). Cubecab is
>>>> awesome. YES!!! ;-)
>>>>
>>>> AND we need to see people walking on the Moon to intoxicate us with
>>>> imagination highs and never ending dreams. YES. Otherwise, why should
>>>> a young and brilliant engineer want to work on space projects instead
>>>> of developing one more useless phone app and become an instant
>>>> millionaire?
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 7:52 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Not so.  Space industrialization can make that happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Moon landings were one thing.  Lots of people getting very, VERY
>>>>> rich (billionaires if not trillionaires) from their workings in space?
>>>>>  That's a whole other kind of sexy.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Adrian, of course this depends on one's emotional triggers, but to me
>>>>>> the ISS is no powerful symbol. It's sexy like a brick. When I was at
>>>>>> ESA I used to criticize the ISS/Shuttle emphasis and the abandonment
>>>>>> of Moon exploration as a losers' choice that would make space boring
>>>>>> and uninteresting. I got into troubles with top management for that on
>>>>>> at least one occasion, but facts proved me right.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not to say that we don't need the ISS, and of course as you said we
>>>>>> need cheap access to space more than everything, but we need to make
>>>>>> space sexy again (as Hawking says), and only manned exploration of the
>>>>>> Moon and the planets can do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Another moon landing would not be such a symbol.  It's been done, and people
>>>>>>> have seen what little comes of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just extending the ISS's lifespan, or setting up the ISS's replacement (to
>>>>>>> be launched and manned before the last person leaves the ISS), would do
>>>>>>> more.  People are in space today, and that hasn't gone away yet.  That is a
>>>>>>> powerful, ongoing symbol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 2017 6:07 AM, "Giulio Prisco" <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course I agree that cheaper space access is needed and, once it's
>>>>>>>> there, will open many doors. But don't dismiss the power of symbols.
>>>>>>>> Apollo was all about flags and footprints, and everyone knew that. Yet
>>>>>>>> Apollo inspired a whole generation, and some of them did great things,
>>>>>>>> in space and in other sectors. We need cheap access to space, and
>>>>>>>> people like you are doing good things for that, but we also need to
>>>>>>>> start dreaming again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:32 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>> >> Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
>>>>>>>> >> http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40345048
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Even Obama said "we've been there", IIRC.  Flags and footprints won't
>>>>>>>> > help - on the Moon or on Mars.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > What we need is more affordable space access.  That will cause all
>>>>>>>> > other space dreams to become far more possible - and be enough to
>>>>>>>> > cause many to happen.
>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 12:46:04 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 05:46:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>

On Jun 23, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 3) Set up a mining camp, start extracting the easiest-to-extract
> chunks, land them on Earth, and sell them to achieve first revenue.
> Aggressively ignore the pundits who howl that the only profitable use
> of resources in orbit must be in orbit, but who can't point to
> specific buyers with nearly as much to spend as, say, the platinum
> commodity market.  Accept that first sales of these minerals will
> start crashing the market; getting to first revenue ASAP is critical
> to getting the funding to have gotten this far.

One major problem with this: real world markets ate forward-looking. The prices for the commodities would likely crash beforehand based on the expectation of such sales. If traders expected the project to work -- and it's hard to see how they wouldn't unless you somehow keep the whole thing secret or most traders expect failure right until contracts are signed.

One way to mitigate this might be to set up futures or options contracts with the goal of profiting before things start to happen. But that puts you into a realm of very speculation trading that might not end up playing out as you believe.

Another is to try to stimulate demand. If a very rare commodity's supply increases hugely and demand stays the same, prices typically crash, but if the demand can go up that might play out another way.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


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From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 13:12:47 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:12:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhr71CQ9Whup+QZcv5rZGvWuWezsZDmbuxWh+Rs+43t8A@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 June 2017 at 13:46, Dan TheBookMan  wrote:
> One major problem with this: real world markets ate forward-looking. The
> prices for the commodities would likely crash beforehand based on the
> expectation of such sales. If traders expected the project to work -- and
> it's hard to see how they wouldn't unless you somehow keep the whole thing
> secret or most traders expect failure right until contracts are signed.
>
> One way to mitigate this might be to set up futures or options contracts
> with the goal of profiting before things start to happen. But that puts you
> into a realm of very speculation trading that might not end up playing out
> as you believe.
>
> Another is to try to stimulate demand. If a very rare commodity's supply
> increases hugely and demand stays the same, prices typically crash, but if
> the demand can go up that might play out another way.
>


I see a few problems with the proposal to fling an asteroid in the
direction of Earth. :)

You have to be able to stop it when it gets near Earth. A fast trip
aiming to go into orbit would probably not be greeted with much
enthusiasm, as a slight miscalculation could be quite messy. A slow
trip would take many years and circumstances would have changed by the
time it arrives.

The theory sounds good, but the practice requires a bit more space
technology than we have at present.

BillK


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 13:25:57 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 14:25:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Solar beekeeping
Message-ID: <CAL_armg2gZkHRFJtRC3yKqu7g7PPOp3Bd=GCy34jW2bCiNWyHA@mail.gmail.com>

By pairing pollinators with solar farms, Travis and Chiara Bolton are
reimagining commercial beekeeping.

<http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/06/chasing-genius-solar-honey-pollinator-friendly-energy/>

Quote:
While the practice of coupling solar arrays with meadows is common in
Europe, it's relatively new in the United States, where solar was
pioneered via desert megaprojects in California and Nevada. Newer
projects in the Midwest and elsewhere need to take farm communities
into account.
-------------

In Europe, sheep can graze under solar panels, to save the expense of
mowing the grass.

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 13:47:04 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 06:47:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhr71CQ9Whup+QZcv5rZGvWuWezsZDmbuxWh+Rs+43t8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <6BC6DF24-86AE-419F-8CC3-76C7731F0DDD@gmail.com>

On Jun 24, 2017, at 6:12 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 24 June 2017 at 13:46, Dan TheBookMan  wrote:
>> One major problem with this: real world markets ate forward-looking. The
>> prices for the commodities would likely crash beforehand based on the
>> expectation of such sales. If traders expected the project to work -- and
>> it's hard to see how they wouldn't unless you somehow keep the whole thing
>> secret or most traders expect failure right until contracts are signed.
>> 
>> One way to mitigate this might be to set up futures or options contracts
>> with the goal of profiting before things start to happen. But that puts you
>> into a realm of very speculation trading that might not end up playing out
>> as you believe.
>> 
>> Another is to try to stimulate demand. If a very rare commodity's supply
>> increases hugely and demand stays the same, prices typically crash, but if
>> the demand can go up that might play out another way.
> 
> 
> I see a few problems with the proposal to fling an asteroid in the
> direction of Earth. :)
> 
> You have to be able to stop it when it gets near Earth. A fast trip
> aiming to go into orbit would probably not be greeted with much
> enthusiasm, as a slight miscalculation could be quite messy. A slow
> trip would take many years and circumstances would have changed by the
> time it arrives.
> 
> The theory sounds good, but the practice requires a bit more space
> technology than we have at present.

True. This adds to my point. Unless these capabilities are improved rapidly -- like a Big Bang in space tech -- or are kept secret -- unlikely for such a large scale project even were it completely government run and funded -- it's almost certain that commodities speculators would crash prices before the stuff reaches Earth or the contracts are inked.

This would apply even were this to not involve moving an asteroid, but simply mining in situ. My guess is this is more likely, especially at first. If and as this succeeds -- likely over a range of missions over years of effort, prices would start to fall if demand remains the same. Making a huge killing here depends on commodities prices being wrong a lot and long term -- everything going right up until your fortune is made. That's not impossible, but it does depend on too many things going right in my opinion.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 14:01:10 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 09:01:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <78E67CE1-0CA9-4051-B465-CAB7F364C499@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOJFdbKTpYv7YSt5CrbAkmYq_UUuPK38nXQH124tF2UjtMo7aw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb6PkiV2oonZ9VxedorN_PGFCQ8-wt_uVG4wSmY7Fbk-Q@mail.gmail.com>

bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as
shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.


I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is on
all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
foreign policy (that is, militarism).

Dan

I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone
  would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill wL



Do you imagine that might be interpreted as an insult?  dan

Do you think that your misinterpretation of my post was a very
strong insult to me?  bill w




Regards,

Dan

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Jun 23, 2017, at 6:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as
> shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.
>
>
> I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is
> on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
> foreign policy (that is, militarism).
>
> Dan
>
> I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone
>   would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill wL
>
>
>
> Do you imagine that might be interpreted as an insult?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 15:53:53 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:53:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 9:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> I think what has to happen for anything to change is to find a likely
> candidate and pour tens of millions into his fund, and start a new
> political party.
>

?I like to think I could vote for a candidate supported by a majority of
Extropians, but I'm no longer certain I could.


>
> ?> ?
> George Wallace, no relation, did pretty good with "There's not a dime's
> worth of difference"  Re the two parties.
>

?Wallace said that in 1968 when the election was between Nixon and Hubert
Humphrey, and looking back with a historical perspective I think most would
have to say Wallace was wrong, there was a dime's worth of difference
between the two parties. And in 2016 the difference was even more clearcut;
behind one was the possibility of becoming a below average Presadent and
behind the other was the certainty of a increase in existential danger.
Guess who won.

?> ?
> The thing is to me, as a social psychologist, that the most important
> thing is name recognition,
>

?Yes, that's why a ?TV
game show host
? is now the most powerful man in the world.?

?> ?
> Don't have planks.  Be vague at all costs. You want sound bites, not
> details easily argued with, which give away your strategy.  You have to
> keep it simple, because there are more simple people than anyone else.
>

?There is no better evidence that you are correct than the most recent
election, one produced detailed position papers and the other simple (in
both meanings of the word "simple") soundbites. Guess who won.   ?


?> ?
> Assemble a team of experts on every subject; mixture of left and right,
> libertarian and authoritarian.
>

?I disagree, recent history indicates the last thing in the world you want
are experts that know what they're talking about because they might utter
truths that the hayseed rednecks in political rallies don't want to hear.
?


> ?> ?
> I am behind Warren; lots and lots of people wanted a woman but not
> Hillary; not ready for a black, though if I had had the chance I would have
> voted for Barbara Jordan.
>

?You could do worse. Much worse.

John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 16:33:11 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:33:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYBnoG0MMTPU7vpJzvyc5=R3g20TbavGpck6CFmTGnH7g@mail.gmail.com>

John wrote:  I disagree, recent history indicates the last thing in the
world you want are experts that know what they're talking about because
they might utter truths that the hayseed rednecks in political rallies
don't want to hear.

NoNoNO - you keep these people strictly behind the scenes, so as not to
confuse anyone, as you said.  But if you win you have to have a program
that is much elevated from campaign rhetoric, and that is where these
people come in.

So - run based on pr and Hollywood, and govern based on scientific data, or
at least as close as you can come.

bill w ?

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 10:53 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 9:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> I think what has to happen for anything to change is to find a likely
>> candidate and pour tens of millions into his fund, and start a new
>> political party.
>>
>
> ?I like to think I could vote for a candidate supported by a majority of
> Extropians, but I'm no longer certain I could.
>
>
>>
>> ?> ?
>> George Wallace, no relation, did pretty good with "There's not a dime's
>> worth of difference"  Re the two parties.
>>
>
> ?Wallace said that in 1968 when the election was between Nixon and Hubert
> Humphrey, and looking back with a historical perspective I think most would
> have to say Wallace was wrong, there was a dime's worth of difference
> between the two parties. And in 2016 the difference was even more clearcut;
> behind one was the possibility of becoming a below average Presadent and
> behind the other was the certainty of a increase in existential danger.
> Guess who won.
>
> ?> ?
>> The thing is to me, as a social psychologist, that the most important
>> thing is name recognition,
>>
>
> ?Yes, that's why a ?TV
> game show host
> ? is now the most powerful man in the world.?
>
> ?> ?
>> Don't have planks.  Be vague at all costs. You want sound bites, not
>> details easily argued with, which give away your strategy.  You have to
>> keep it simple, because there are more simple people than anyone else.
>>
>
> ?There is no better evidence that you are correct than the most recent
> election, one produced detailed position papers and the other simple (in
> both meanings of the word "simple") soundbites. Guess who won.   ?
>
>
> ?> ?
>> Assemble a team of experts on every subject; mixture of left and right,
>> libertarian and authoritarian.
>>
>
> ?I disagree, recent history indicates the last thing in the world you want
> are experts that know what they're talking about because they might utter
> truths that the hayseed rednecks in political rallies don't want to hear.
> ?
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> I am behind Warren; lots and lots of people wanted a woman but not
>> Hillary; not ready for a black, though if I had had the chance I would have
>> voted for Barbara Jordan.
>>
>
> ?You could do worse. Much worse.
>
> John K Clark?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 18:30:37 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:30:37 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how to help?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb6PkiV2oonZ9VxedorN_PGFCQ8-wt_uVG4wSmY7Fbk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEao0x6sHgjMH-KEywG1Uqkxo0e0QnKdxgDj1eCNReBYvg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAL_armhXwd5KHUs8CMEDeoc=zncjWLnL66m8ogan-y4WN7QoBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E2AB74DB-A313-4ECB-BE2B-1723DEF72C0F@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa=gb0nDmW310RwEZSws5iAq31oTtW1H7OJm+KND8gqvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <271E672D-8799-4888-AFA0-5AD595936A8A@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYqHnqw2_zRPJxXTGK1hEGGKQX3Nmr+qNFQLTWjUuhRPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <78E67CE1-0CA9-4051-B465-CAB7F364C499@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb6PkiV2oonZ9VxedorN_PGFCQ8-wt_uVG4wSmY7Fbk-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRWHkgXsMAUssPsX5HkTc01iXQVaE1R=s-2yXPCnwNqdA@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe it's just how my email client rendered it, but...I've seen
above-posting (deliberately doing it here to try to preserve formatting)
and below-posting, but never before on-top-of posting.

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 7:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as
> shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.
>
>
> I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is
> on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
> foreign policy (that is, militarism).
>
> Dan
>
> I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone
>   would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill wL
>
>
>
> Do you imagine that might be interpreted as an insult?  dan
>
> Do you think that your misinterpretation of my post was a very
> strong insult to me?  bill w
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 8:33 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 23, 2017, at 6:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> bill w wroteRe foreign victims. Of course they do not count at all, as
>> shown by our name for them:  collateral damage.
>>
>>
>> I don't take part in that. Nor should anyone else. I believe the onus is
>> on all of us here not to forget these foreign victims of the US elite's
>> foreign policy (that is, militarism).
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> I never in my wildest imagination thought that anyone
>>   would fail to see the sarcasm dripping all over it.  bill wL
>>
>>
>>
>> Do you imagine that might be interpreted as an insult?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>   Sample my Kindle books via:
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 18:39:26 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:39:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJycn+eA8zufDnU07PgxM+8wjKFj2omBsaFh53+bs2ts3ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQrfrH2GR-21MjP0rjjxmGuN8N+cOKuprptPjJNGz1cuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:51 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sounds like a plan, I love it. Is there any project to do that, with a
> feasibility study and some funding?

Step 1 is being undertaken by Planetary Resources and others.  They
intend a different step 2 and beyond, but it seems likely the data
will be released publicly, meaning someone else can step in.

There hasn't been a formal feasibility study yet.  Partly I keep
talking about the plan to attract interest from some group that can do
a good feasibility study - formally or informally.  I would imagine
that some on this list might be able to bring the plan to the
attention of one or more groups whose mission includes formal
feasibility studies of this sort of thing.

Obviously, funding waits until after that.  (Though this is one of my
reasons for doing CubeCab: if it succeeds well enough, then I could
perhaps fund most-to-all of steps 2 and 3 - after which, hopefully
enough profits can be generated to make it self-sustaining.)


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 18:55:20 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:55:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQwwDiBQa3ys2twhkHUOcqhQAf6FBgmRc+EvvvOzDu6Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyd4xwFh5CgiFkOOgBLQqWk1OX9jYsn8of5GyJK_7MwL-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRc+tv8dVgQaxAcH-=ibr_V4zVivG4p0nE_W6GxN1u+=g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> One major problem with this: real world markets ate forward-looking. The
> prices for the commodities would likely crash beforehand based on the
> expectation of such sales. If traders expected the project to work -- and
> it's hard to see how they wouldn't unless you somehow keep the whole thing
> secret or most traders expect failure right until contracts are signed.

There's no way to keep such a thing secret, and once it's in orbit
it's in orbit.  There are a number of ways for it to go wrong, such as
international claims that it's still anyone's asteroid (which...okay,
yeah, but you still have to actually put mining infrastructure up
there, and if you have people up there then you might be justified in
putting in measures to push away anyone else's spacecraft that comes
near your crew without your permission - assuming anyone else actually
launches mining equipment to the asteroid, which might well not
happen).

But even with such crashes, the sheer amount of material that can be
mined and sold quickly might still recover the investment.  Wikipedia
says 161 metric tons of platinum are mined per year ;
http://www.businessinsider.com/one-years-worth-of-mined-commodities-2014-9#platinum-4
gives about the same figure and prices it at $8B.  If you only drop 10
tons during your first year of operation, and seem likely to continue
that rate, that's hardly enough to crash platinum down to a penny per
ton - and if you can keep steps 2 and 3 to around $100M or so, that
recovers the investment in the first year.

Of course, then you have to figure how you can do steps 2 and 3 on a
combined budget of only $100M or so (possibly with another few times
that on loan to be paid off over a few years, acquired once it seems
very likely that you will generate ongoing revenue - so, at a minimum
after step 2).  I suspect step 3 will be the bulk of the budget.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 22:13:55 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 15:13:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Hawking urges Moon landing to 'elevate humanity'
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhr71CQ9Whup+QZcv5rZGvWuWezsZDmbuxWh+Rs+43t8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJyfVFdqxtXwsaOB7APxhFAb6xotMvUac0PU0FqevFK1=8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNTYx99nh=7+WrvpLN7NExvyVuO2PeBxTHzVROHtbPQNxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyc2fu5Gz06Jwd9pjPoqWHNGZFp95Zy+77nxX1i_v7SVpg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CALAdGNSEOrbeMNQY6yGGt8hj70T972ZsBbQma48pu=qfZ27G_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf9=n9JQZJHShizWUW1i4wCFY4_H6Mma2QHuhsDVjLRjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRXv86+YGmg=xy9masOCgwWCsFqXMSVpGj5DryWUgtQDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydHcHKy2fVMDYA-fyijr9PdvmuPK6UUD-YSuyGtjDqPxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQMZANFG+-ymN1xH+x37KaW-wSZq6Yhf8a1u31_4iEprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4D810EFF-BB6D-4D18-9898-8BE40D859C95@gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhr71CQ9Whup+QZcv5rZGvWuWezsZDmbuxWh+Rs+43t8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRmBPNEtMC6EW0J2R1ppWT-ouM+jFFzu4g=XoPVazdMqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 6:12 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> I see a few problems with the proposal to fling an asteroid in the
> direction of Earth. :)
>
> You have to be able to stop it when it gets near Earth. A fast trip
> aiming to go into orbit would probably not be greeted with much
> enthusiasm, as a slight miscalculation could be quite messy. A slow
> trip would take many years and circumstances would have changed by the
> time it arrives.

Even a slow trip will have political problems.  Ironically, they are
likely to be greater with a slow trip: more time for people to whip up
hysteria) than with a fast one.

But yes, moving it to the Earth-Moon system includes stopping it
relative to the Earth-Moon system.  Depending on the asteroid, using
("wasting", except not really because it is part of how the rest gets
mined) part of it for delta-v may be involved.  The exact
characteristics of the engine will depend on the asteroid.

Maybe aim for the Moon for most of the trip, then divert to GEO toward
the end (which also means control will have been amply demonstrated by
then).  Of course, if this option is taken, make the plan for this
adjustment clear from the start.  (This sets up anyone who tries to
blind panic "THEY'RE GOING TO AIM IT AT THE EARTH" to be corrected on
the facts.  "No, first we send it to the Moon.  Then, once it's a
small hop to Earth orbit, we aim it at Earth orbit, on a course where
it will pass out of orbit and into space if we mess up.  At no point
is it aimed at the Earth.  Please stop murdering puppies.  You say you
aren't murdering puppies?  We'll stop making up false allegations when
you do; you first.")

> The theory sounds good, but the practice requires a bit more space
> technology than we have at present.

I should perhaps disclaim more often when technological development is
part and parcel of my plans.  I mean, tech is being developed all the
time for anything of significance anyway.

That said, acceleration of space tech development (by making launching
easier, and thus making testing tech in space easier) is another
reason I'm doing CubeCab now.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Jun 24 22:22:32 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 15:22:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYBnoG0MMTPU7vpJzvyc5=R3g20TbavGpck6CFmTGnH7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBnoG0MMTPU7vpJzvyc5=R3g20TbavGpck6CFmTGnH7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR+E7Js7=Q5gCo43jzofHAAoXFztaJU=pu-_dyV5MFAew@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 9:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So - run based on pr and Hollywood, and govern based on scientific data, or
> at least as close as you can come.

It is entirely possible to do both.  In some ways it's even easier
than doing just one or the other: doing Hollywood PR based on
observable scientific facts means the audience needs no suspension of
disbelief.

Of course, you have to do it well.  Most people don't care enough to
try, or know that they can.  It does require skill at communicating
the science so that people won't make too much of the exceptions,
glitches, and oddities (such as that global warming is far from evenly
distributed, so it doesn't always mean local warming - but it does
mean more extreme weather in most cases, ice cap melting, and so on).

But no, most people only bother with communicating lies well (but lies
only last so long) or communicating facts poorly (and getting easily
misinterpreted).


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 01:02:40 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:02:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR+E7Js7=Q5gCo43jzofHAAoXFztaJU=pu-_dyV5MFAew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBnoG0MMTPU7vpJzvyc5=R3g20TbavGpck6CFmTGnH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR+E7Js7=Q5gCo43jzofHAAoXFztaJU=pu-_dyV5MFAew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYSnEnQwR=B_i96AfZpv19vXOx95HZfbnNHuRTCDLB_hg@mail.gmail.com>

Adrian wrote:

Of course, you have to do it well.  Most people don't care enough to
try, or know that they can.  It does require skill at communicating

So to add one more thing to the list of what is needed, add skill at
communication.  Take Reagan:  as an actor he was a great president (screen
actor's guild or some such), and as a president he was a great actor.
Moreover, he was likable. People would not believe that he was lying to
them.  Hillary was very unlikable.  Maybe we need another actor!

More on the name - Libertarian Party - I think this is associated in
people's minds with 'losers' - and not sure of what they believe.  OK, look
it up in Wikipedia and find out that some of them are anarchists.  That
won't do.  So , get a new name (but not the same people who are running the
Libertarian Party).

bill w

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 9:33 AM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > So - run based on pr and Hollywood, and govern based on scientific data,
> or
> > at least as close as you can come.
>
> It is entirely possible to do both.  In some ways it's even easier
> than doing just one or the other: doing Hollywood PR based on
> observable scientific facts means the audience needs no suspension of
> disbelief.
>
> Of course, you have to do it well.  Most people don't care enough to
> try, or know that they can.  It does require skill at communicating
> the science so that people won't make too much of the exceptions,
> glitches, and oddities (such as that global warming is far from evenly
> distributed, so it doesn't always mean local warming - but it does
> mean more extreme weather in most cases, ice cap melting, and so on).
>
> But no, most people only bother with communicating lies well (but lies
> only last so long) or communicating facts poorly (and getting easily
> misinterpreted).
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 03:12:15 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:12:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] what to do politics
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYSnEnQwR=B_i96AfZpv19vXOx95HZfbnNHuRTCDLB_hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaOVDwOEfdzfq-0U3Wj9t0Xja-PQ8=3nLfpC-E3uHteCg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2tzbA7BYFnD4aE_YEmvAOf_8pF43TaFUm6BVAvSfR5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBnoG0MMTPU7vpJzvyc5=R3g20TbavGpck6CFmTGnH7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR+E7Js7=Q5gCo43jzofHAAoXFztaJU=pu-_dyV5MFAew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYSnEnQwR=B_i96AfZpv19vXOx95HZfbnNHuRTCDLB_hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR3ziLhw27iHo1REb6dc4ehuDsoOQ61m8tH3myZifrk4g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 6:02 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So to add one more thing to the list of what is needed, add skill at
> communication.

No kidding.

> Take Reagan:  as an actor he was a great president (screen
> actor's guild or some such),

Screen Actor's Guild.  https://www.sagaftra.org/ronald-reagan

> and as a president he was a great actor.
> Moreover, he was likable. People would not believe that he was lying to
> them.  Hillary was very unlikable.  Maybe we need another actor!

Or someone who's skilled in science communication.  What are Bill
Nye's politics?  I know he has, at some point, specifically focused on
communicating science to older folks; might he be able to explain
that...

* No, Mexicans are not (as a whole) coming to rape your daughter.

* No, the coal industry is not coming back, but there are ways we can
lessen the pain for coal workers - and these are not the measures that
only benefit coal executives.

* No, money trickling down from the rich to the poor does not happen that much.

* No, transgender/gay/lesbian/etc. folks are not imaginary or merely confused.

* No, education is not a painful thing to be avoided, nor is learning
new skills beyond the mental capability of most working-age people.

* No, the USA is not and never has been a Christian nation with laws
based primarily and directly on religious values, and to turn it into
one would do far more harm than good.

> More on the name - Libertarian Party - I think this is associated in
> people's minds with 'losers' - and not sure of what they believe.  OK, look
> it up in Wikipedia and find out that some of them are anarchists.  That
> won't do.  So , get a new name (but not the same people who are running the
> Libertarian Party).

Aye.  Even the Green Party *might* be possible, but the Libertarians
at this point...

So many other names possible, though.  Reform.  Labor.  Populist.
American.  Maybe even Transhumanist?


From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 20:20:57 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 21:20:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
Message-ID: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>

The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017

<https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificial-intelligence-economic-inequality.html>

Quotes:

BEIJING ? What worries you about the coming world of artificial intelligence?

Too often the answer to this question resembles the plot of a sci-fi
thriller. People worry that developments in A.I. will bring about the
?singularity? ? that point in history when A.I. surpasses human
intelligence, leading to an unimaginable revolution in human affairs.
Or they wonder whether instead of our controlling artificial
intelligence, it will control us, turning us, in effect, into cyborgs.

On the contrary, the A.I. products that now exist are improving faster
than most people realize and promise to radically transform our world,
not always for the better. They are only tools, not a competing form
of intelligence. But they will reshape what work means and how wealth
is created, leading to unprecedented economic inequalities and even
altering the global balance of power.

Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the A.I.
revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
(assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
ones, too.

This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.

We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?
--------------------


BillK



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 20:49:04 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 15:49:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEanL-qhmTR0mb8sfnFr9Kz9A=PknEo1p7prsm4UAic+CQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 3:20 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
> By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017
>
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/
> artificial-intelligence-economic-inequality.html>
>
> Quotes:
>
> BEIJING ? What worries you about the coming world of artificial
> intelligence?
>
> Too often the answer to this question resembles the plot of a sci-fi
> thriller. People worry that developments in A.I. will bring about the
> ?singularity? ? that point in history when A.I. surpasses human
> intelligence, leading to an unimaginable revolution in human affairs.
> Or they wonder whether instead of our controlling artificial
> intelligence, it will control us, turning us, in effect, into cyborgs.
>
> On the contrary, the A.I. products that now exist are improving faster
> than most people realize and promise to radically transform our world,
> not always for the better. They are only tools, not a competing form
> of intelligence. But they will reshape what work means and how wealth
> is created, leading to unprecedented economic inequalities and even
> altering the global balance of power.
>
> Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the A.I.
> revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
> who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
> (assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
> computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
> decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
> ones, too.
>
> This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
> that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.
>
> We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
> enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
> numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?
> --------------------
> ?Finland, I believe, is set to try a guaranteed income.  Let's see what
> comes of that.  I don't see any way out of it.
>

?bill w?

> ?
>
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Jun 25 21:27:36 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 14:27:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] musk on a roll
Message-ID: <018001d2edf9$de278fe0$9a76afa0$@att.net>

 

 

Woohoo!  Check it out, SpaceX does it again!

 

https://www.geekwire.com/2017/spacex-falcon-iridium/

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 22:13:19 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 18:13:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEanL-qhmTR0mb8sfnFr9Kz9A=PknEo1p7prsm4UAic+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEanL-qhmTR0mb8sfnFr9Kz9A=PknEo1p7prsm4UAic+CQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3ee_cVojRfp=ahc17rn1AWFt-LDxHd5xnRfuFF7ZbyXA@mail.gmail.com>

The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017

<https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificia
l-intelligence-economic-inequality.html>


> ?> ?
> We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
> enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
> numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?
>

?
Trump has a idea about
?
how to solve that
?
little
?
problem;
?
take away health care for 23 million people, remove the inheritance tax and
thus establishing a
?
permanent
American aristocracy to compete with the British Royal Family, and cut
taxes by 3.1 TRILLION dollars with 29.6% of that money going to the richest
99 to 99.9% and 46.5% of those trillions going to the richest .1%.

?Sound like a good idea??


John K Clark




>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Sun Jun 25 22:25:31 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 22:25:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 6:23 am, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
> By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017
>
> <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificial-intelligence-economic-inequality.html
> >
>
> Quotes:
>
> BEIJING ? What worries you about the coming world of artificial
> intelligence?
>
> Too often the answer to this question resembles the plot of a sci-fi
> thriller. People worry that developments in A.I. will bring about the
> ?singularity? ? that point in history when A.I. surpasses human
> intelligence, leading to an unimaginable revolution in human affairs.
> Or they wonder whether instead of our controlling artificial
> intelligence, it will control us, turning us, in effect, into cyborgs.
>
> On the contrary, the A.I. products that now exist are improving faster
> than most people realize and promise to radically transform our world,
> not always for the better. They are only tools, not a competing form
> of intelligence. But they will reshape what work means and how wealth
> is created, leading to unprecedented economic inequalities and even
> altering the global balance of power.
>
> Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the A.I.
> revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
> who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
> (assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
> computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
> decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
> ones, too.
>
> This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
> that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.
>
> We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
> enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
> numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?


"Decimation" is not the right word. It means elimination of one in ten,
which would not be that bad.

I don't see AI as  necessarily bad if it eliminates human jobs. It is
essentially a way of continuing the increase in human productivity and
wealth that technology has been responsible for over thousands of years.
The challenge will be to distribute the increased wealth. If goods and
services become very cheap due to AI, it will be possible to do this
without resorting to crippling public debt or taxation.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 05:25:37 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 07:25:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Cryo and uploading mentioned in House of Cards
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfc37FYvU3ApcHC3q7JMeZfWGVyC84d-_88qkdn5sY5vQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, cryo and uploading mentioned in House of Cards (Ep. 8, current season).


From anthony at cajuntechie.org  Mon Jun 26 01:27:22 2017
From: anthony at cajuntechie.org (Anthony Papillion)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2017 20:27:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>



On Jun 25, 2017, 5:27 PM, at 5:27 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 6:23 am, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
>> By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017
>>
>> <
>>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificial-intelligence-economic-inequality.html
>> >
>>
>> Quotes:
>>
>> BEIJING ? What worries you about the coming world of artificial
>> intelligence?
>>
>> Too often the answer to this question resembles the plot of a sci-fi
>> thriller. People worry that developments in A.I. will bring about the
>> ?singularity? ? that point in history when A.I. surpasses human
>> intelligence, leading to an unimaginable revolution in human affairs.
>> Or they wonder whether instead of our controlling artificial
>> intelligence, it will control us, turning us, in effect, into
>cyborgs.
>>
>> On the contrary, the A.I. products that now exist are improving
>faster
>> than most people realize and promise to radically transform our
>world,
>> not always for the better. They are only tools, not a competing form
>> of intelligence. But they will reshape what work means and how wealth
>> is created, leading to unprecedented economic inequalities and even
>> altering the global balance of power.
>>
>> Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the
>A.I.
>> revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
>> who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
>> (assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
>> computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
>> decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
>> ones, too.
>>
>> This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
>> that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.
>>
>> We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
>> enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
>> numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?
>
>
>"Decimation" is not the right word. It means elimination of one in ten,
>which would not be that bad.
>
>I don't see AI as  necessarily bad if it eliminates human jobs. It is
>essentially a way of continuing the increase in human productivity and
>wealth that technology has been responsible for over thousands of
>years.
>The challenge will be to distribute the increased wealth. If goods and
>services become very cheap due to AI, it will be possible to do this
>without resorting to crippling public debt or taxation.
>-- 
>Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 06:50:40 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 06:50:40 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypV-2BDiA=3jOKROWs+4aN==jb-jSuPHuzOKcaV=ORtaRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 3:56 pm, Anthony Papillion <anthony at cajuntechie.org>
wrote:

> On Jun 25, 2017, at 5:27 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 6:23 am, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
>>> By KAI-FU LEE  JUNE 24, 2017
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificial-intelligence-economic-inequality.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> Quotes:
>>>
>>> BEIJING ? What worries you about the coming world of artificial
>>> intelligence?
>>>
>>> Too often the answer to this question resembles the plot of a sci-fi
>>> thriller. People worry that developments in A.I. will bring about the
>>> ?singularity? ? that point in history when A.I. surpasses human
>>> intelligence, leading to an unimaginable revolution in human affairs.
>>> Or they wonder whether instead of our controlling artificial
>>> intelligence, it will control us, turning us, in effect, into cyborgs.
>>>
>>> On the contrary, the A.I. products that now exist are improving faster
>>> than most people realize and promise to radically transform our world,
>>> not always for the better. They are only tools, not a competing form
>>> of intelligence. But they will reshape what work means and how wealth
>>> is created, leading to unprecedented economic inequalities and even
>>> altering the global balance of power.
>>>
>>> Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the A.I.
>>> revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
>>> who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
>>> (assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
>>> computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
>>> decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
>>> ones, too.
>>>
>>> This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
>>> that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.
>>>
>>> We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
>>> enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
>>> numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?
>>
>>
>> "Decimation" is not the right word. It means elimination of one in ten,
>> which would not be that bad.
>>
>> I don't see AI as  necessarily bad if it eliminates human jobs. It is
>> essentially a way of continuing the increase in human productivity and
>> wealth that technology has been responsible for over thousands of years.
>> The challenge will be to distribute the increased wealth. If goods and
>> services become very cheap due to AI, it will be possible to do this
>> without resorting to crippling public debt or taxation.
>>
>> Then what happens when those displaced by A.I have no money left to
>> purchase even these amazingly cheap goods? Companies are still going to
>> want to make money on the fruits of their AI labor. What happens when
>> there's simply nobody left able to purchase those goods?
>>
>
Public services and a guaranteed basic income for all.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 08:11:47 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:11:47 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypV-2BDiA=3jOKROWs+4aN==jb-jSuPHuzOKcaV=ORtaRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>
 <CAH=2ypV-2BDiA=3jOKROWs+4aN==jb-jSuPHuzOKcaV=ORtaRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgx9o+0Nda4JLhh2W-HM0LoSUxfVh=H_9my7C601wfq2g@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2017 at 07:50, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> Public services and a guaranteed basic income for all.
> --


Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality gone?
If everyone turns into couch potatoes it will be a big upheaval in society.

BillK


From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jun 26 16:17:45 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:17:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
Message-ID: <f7c58e62c3ca8610ba7169962ee4a08f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:

>Unlike the Industrial Revolution and the computer revolution, the A.I.
>revolution is not taking certain jobs (artisans, personal assistants
>who use paper and typewriters) and replacing them with other jobs
>(assembly-line workers, personal assistants conversant with
>computers). Instead, it is poised to bring about a wide-scale
>decimation of jobs ? mostly lower-paying jobs, but some higher-paying
>ones, too.

>This transformation will result in enormous profits for the companies
>that develop A.I., as well as for the companies that adopt it.

>We are thus facing two developments that do not sit easily together:
>enormous wealth concentrated in relatively few hands and enormous
>numbers of people out of work. What is to be done?

There are several considerations about this situation that give me some
cause for optimism:

1. AI are software-based therefore it will likely not be possible for any
given company to monopolize the use of the AI for its own benefit. I mean
if the NSA can't keep Stuxnet secure then how would Company X keep its AI
out of the hands of competitors and ultimately script kiddies? Therefore
the gradual dissemination of the AI would help ameliorate the inequality.

2. It might be hard, without some heavy-handed top down management by
government, to protect even the highest paying jobs such as CEOs,
banksters, hedge fund managers, insurance underwriters etc. from
automation. I mean if AI can make more efficient resource allocations than
e.g. Jaime Diamond, what share-holder in their right mind would pay his
outrageous salary and bonuses?

3. The public sector might benefit from AI as much as the private sector.
An AI might be better suited to determine optimal tax structures and set
interest rates for example than congress or the Fed. Hell an AI might be
better suited to congress itself since it could parse a thousand page bill
in mere nano seconds in leiu of a congressman who typically can't be
bothered to actually read it before he votes on it.

4. As AI gets more generally smart, it would start to recognize that
profits will be maximized for Company X if consumers can actually afford
the goods and services provided by Company X. Therefore it might hire
humans to do busy work for Company X just to be able to have a customer
base for Company X.

5. Some hacker group like Anonymous might take it upon themselves to write
an AI that would be like Robin Hood and steal from the rich to give to the
poor.

That's about all I can think of for now, but I think you get my general
drift. I think AI will be just as disruptive for 0.1% as for the masses
and those that benefit the most will be the most flexible and adaptable
and not necessarily the wealthiest. Just my two cents.

Stuart LaForge





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 18:28:06 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:28:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ai article
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY9Ej4BVu3M+xsdxNsLh_=z1mGyRpM=XB0HaPkOipZpNQ@mail.gmail.com>

bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and
frugality gone?
If everyone turns into couch potatoes it will be a big upheaval in society.

bill w-  I am convinced that men and not necessarily women, as an average,
need not only to work but to do meaningful work. A significant percentage
of men will not sit in front of a tube all day long.  Manufacturing is
ideal in that there is an object that comes from your work.  I don't know
how coders who write only a part of a program, perhaps, feel.  As satisfied
as the object producer?

Putting men into public service projects, like picking up trash, will not
work.  That work is low and often done by criminals let out for the day.

Meaningful work - that's the challenge.

billw
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 18:35:09 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:35:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] education
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>

Here is an article I found thanks to Pocket:  It is quite different from
anything we discussed or perhaps even know about. I didn't.  bill w

https://qz.com/994810/the-most-forward-thinking-future-proof-college-in-america-teaches-every-student-the-exact-same-things/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 19:05:51 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 15:05:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] education
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cxdmPWZDZU8QiLXz7nFfGf1DtseUZZqqndpAWP3SZNzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 2:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here is an article I found thanks to Pocket:  It is quite different from
> anything we discussed or perhaps even know about. I didn't.  bill w
>
> https://qz.com/994810/the-most-forward-thinking-future-
> proof-college-in-america-teaches-every-student-the-
> exact-same-things/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_
> campaign=pockethits
>

Seems to me that's just a classic liberal arts education of the kind that
was popular before colleges morphed into glorified trade schools.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun 26 20:13:33 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:13:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ai article
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY9Ej4BVu3M+xsdxNsLh_=z1mGyRpM=XB0HaPkOipZpNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY9Ej4BVu3M+xsdxNsLh_=z1mGyRpM=XB0HaPkOipZpNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008301d2eeb8$b01d7780$10586680$@att.net>

 

 

 

bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality gone?

 

 

Seems like all we ever hear about is Protestant work ethic.  Well how many of those guys are still left?  What are they, Presbyterians and Episcopalians?  Aren?t they getting kinda scarce?  Is there a corresponding Catholic work ethic?  What I really want to know is what is the flaming atheist work ethic?  I work my ass off on something if it interests me.  Since the Protestant work ethic has an implied reward in the sweet by and by, floating around on clouds with harps and all that stuff (sheesh how boring would that be? (can you even play rock and roll on a freaking harp?)) but my flaming atheist work ethic knows damn well the only reward for unpaid labor is the subtle dopamines and serotonins and such, my work ethic beat theirs, ja?  I am more work-ethical than the salvation-by-work people.  They get all hard-work holier than thou on me, when I am work-ethicaler than they, since I don?t get an eternal (if boring) reward for my labor.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 20:30:34 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:30:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <f7c58e62c3ca8610ba7169962ee4a08f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <f7c58e62c3ca8610ba7169962ee4a08f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0kgfO0ZkzsgJome7z6uJKzYrwQ47aX6JUVFk-e45LP-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017  Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> if the NSA can't keep Stuxnet secure then how would Company X keep its AI
> out of the hands of competitors and ultimately script kiddies?


?The NSA is at a disadvantage because the people inside that organization
are no smarter than the people outside it; but that need not be the case
for a AI, it could keep secrets even from the very people in Company X that
built it.   ?

?>?
>  it might hire humans to do busy work for Company X just to be able to
> have a customer base for Company X.


?Unless the AI could find a way hide the fact that its just busy work
created to make the humans feel important and give them some dignity the AI
might as well just hand the humans money rather than give them a paycheck
for doing a silly pointless job. ?



> ?> ?
> Some hacker group like Anonymous might take it upon themselves to write
> an AI that would be like Robin Hood and steal from the rich to give to the
> poor.


?The AI could only do that if it had superhuman intelligence, ?

?but if that's the case then the hackers could never be confident that
their goals and the AI's goals always remain in sync. ?

 John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 20:48:38 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 13:48:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ai article
In-Reply-To: <008301d2eeb8$b01d7780$10586680$@att.net>
References: <CAO+xQEY9Ej4BVu3M+xsdxNsLh_=z1mGyRpM=XB0HaPkOipZpNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d2eeb8$b01d7780$10586680$@att.net>
Message-ID: <7129DA97-4153-4196-B3EE-99A6E828D440@gmail.com>

The Catholic ethic seemed more focused on partying, no?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
>  
> bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality gone?
>  
>  
> Seems like all we ever hear about is Protestant work ethic.  Well how many of those guys are still left?  What are they, Presbyterians and Episcopalians?  Aren?t they getting kinda scarce?  Is there a corresponding Catholic work ethic?  What I really want to know is what is the flaming atheist work ethic?  I work my ass off on something if it interests me.  Since the Protestant work ethic has an implied reward in the sweet by and by, floating around on clouds with harps and all that stuff (sheesh how boring would that be? (can you even play rock and roll on a freaking harp?)) but my flaming atheist work ethic knows damn well the only reward for unpaid labor is the subtle dopamines and serotonins and such, my work ethic beat theirs, ja?  I am more work-ethical than the salvation-by-work people.  They get all hard-work holier than thou on me, when I am work-ethicaler than they, since I don?t get an eternal (if boring) reward for my labor.
>  
> spike
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 21:25:02 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:25:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cxdmPWZDZU8QiLXz7nFfGf1DtseUZZqqndpAWP3SZNzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cxdmPWZDZU8QiLXz7nFfGf1DtseUZZqqndpAWP3SZNzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYDKO32HE9km75YW_c3Ji2U9hg62cpogJjWmQP14RQ-YQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 2:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Here is an article I found thanks to Pocket:  It is quite different from
>> anything we discussed or perhaps even know about. I didn't.  bill w
>>
>> https://qz.com/994810/the-most-forward-thinking-future-proof
>> -college-in-america-teaches-every-student-the-exact-same-
>> things/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits
>>
>
> Seems to me that's just a classic liberal arts education of the kind that
> was popular before colleges morphed into glorified trade schools.
>
> -Dave
>

?Why 'just'?

bill w?

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 22:15:45 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 22:15:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgx9o+0Nda4JLhh2W-HM0LoSUxfVh=H_9my7C601wfq2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>
 <CAH=2ypV-2BDiA=3jOKROWs+4aN==jb-jSuPHuzOKcaV=ORtaRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgx9o+0Nda4JLhh2W-HM0LoSUxfVh=H_9my7C601wfq2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVsrKWix60BawR41WCRAN3MyPKszd9cf+RapHNXLJByzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 6:14 pm, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 26 June 2017 at 07:50, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> >
> > Public services and a guaranteed basic income for all.
> > --
>
>
> Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality
> gone?
> If everyone turns into couch potatoes it will be a big upheaval in society.
>
> BillK


The upheaval has already happened in that most people don't need to work
every waking hour just to stay alive. There is no merit in suffering
unnecessarily.

> --
Stathis Papaioannou
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 22:32:57 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 15:32:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVsrKWix60BawR41WCRAN3MyPKszd9cf+RapHNXLJByzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armi3hQn8YUfRD9ERerqAaZVsi-xoe6Mp0Gi8Bwysnrs1YA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypU1rxf0RnmCg7ZAKv7FwUFTghky6rLpK3ZCqNrJebHyCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <07fc8204-f133-479e-b055-00ae8c4f0269@cajuntechie.org>
 <CAH=2ypV-2BDiA=3jOKROWs+4aN==jb-jSuPHuzOKcaV=ORtaRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgx9o+0Nda4JLhh2W-HM0LoSUxfVh=H_9my7C601wfq2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVsrKWix60BawR41WCRAN3MyPKszd9cf+RapHNXLJByzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC3DB77C-8131-4F1E-B5F8-054785011C68@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 at 6:14 pm, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 26 June 2017 at 07:50, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>> >
>> > Public services and a guaranteed basic income for all.
>> > --
>> 
>> Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality gone?
>> If everyone turns into couch potatoes it will be a big upheaval in society.
> 
> The upheaval has already happened in that most people don't need to work every waking hour just to stay alive. There is no merit in suffering unnecessarily.

I agree. The work ethic came not from survival advantage either. It has a religious basis because there's an anti-leisure attitude running through the sects that shaped American and Northwestern European cultures. 

That said, there's probably some need for purposeful goals, but why would that be anything like work in the traditional sense? Learning to play piano or hiking across Iceland can be purposeful goals. (Of course, there are probably issues like linking this to having an impact on one's life and survival.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Jun 26 22:48:42 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 15:48:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] work-ethics outside the protesphere, was: RE:  ai article
Message-ID: <017501d2eece$5d2d76e0$178864a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 1:49 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ai article

 

  Sample my Kindle books via:

http://author.to/DanUst


On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

 

 

 

bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and frugality gone?

 

 

Seems like all we ever hear about is Protestant work ethic.  ?spike

 

 

 

 

The Catholic ethic seemed more focused on partying, no?

Regards,





Dan

 

 

Ja, and what about heathen work ethic?  Don?t those guys have jobs too?  Don?t witch doctors need witch nurses, witch pharmacists and witch administrators?  You know they would, people who keep the witch doctor?s office clean and organized, work the appointment schedule, repair the equipment such as the rattles and nose-bones, that sorta thing.  Heathens must have a work ethic to keep all that running.  Protestants don?t get a patent on work ethic.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 26 23:15:58 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 18:15:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] work-ethics outside the protesphere, was: RE: ai article
In-Reply-To: <017501d2eece$5d2d76e0$178864a0$@att.net>
References: <017501d2eece$5d2d76e0$178864a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYw=WN=7fJK_-3thWRKnAGBN0A8L7bLzD+4_FWyJPHN6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Ja, and what about heathen work ethic?  Don?t those guys have jobs too?
Don?t witch doctors need witch nurses, witch pharmacists and witch
administrators?  You know they would, people who keep the witch doctor?s
office clean and organized, work the appointment schedule, repair the
equipment such as the rattles and nose-bones, that sorta thing.  Heathens
must have a work ethic to keep all that running.  Protestants don?t get a
patent on work ethic.



spike


Religions bigotry is the answer.  Atheists (my preference:  naturalists)
don't have good PR.  We do great things but they are never linked to our
lack of belief.  What are we ashamed of?  An irritating young golfer
interviewed after his first win:  "I'd like to thank Jesus Christ....."  So
religious people get credit for things and we don't.  Suggestions?


bill w

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:48 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dan TheBookMan
> *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 1:49 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ai article
>
>
>
>   Sample my Kindle books via:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
>
> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:13 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline and
> frugality gone?
>
>
>
>
>
> Seems like all we ever hear about is Protestant work ethic.  ?spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Catholic ethic seemed more focused on partying, no?
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, and what about heathen work ethic?  Don?t those guys have jobs too?
> Don?t witch doctors need witch nurses, witch pharmacists and witch
> administrators?  You know they would, people who keep the witch doctor?s
> office clean and organized, work the appointment schedule, repair the
> equipment such as the rattles and nose-bones, that sorta thing.  Heathens
> must have a work ethic to keep all that running.  Protestants don?t get a
> patent on work ethic.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 00:52:42 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:52:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] education
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYDKO32HE9km75YW_c3Ji2U9hg62cpogJjWmQP14RQ-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cxdmPWZDZU8QiLXz7nFfGf1DtseUZZqqndpAWP3SZNzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYDKO32HE9km75YW_c3Ji2U9hg62cpogJjWmQP14RQ-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f0irQmVKoqSow5Y0+vMrxh7469gHNHmANe1-VBRnVXvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Seems to me that's just a classic liberal arts education of the kind that
>> was popular before colleges morphed into glorified trade schools.
>>
>
> ?Why 'just'?
>

Because the article made it sound like this was some new innovation rather
than a style of education that once widespread.

I wholeheartedly agree that a classical liberal arts education is
worthwhile.

-Dave
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 02:17:13 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 19:17:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2f0irQmVKoqSow5Y0+vMrxh7469gHNHmANe1-VBRnVXvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbAg06SjSfXgmBf48Zc2GNB_dopV0tYZfabNQ7PBuP-xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cxdmPWZDZU8QiLXz7nFfGf1DtseUZZqqndpAWP3SZNzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYDKO32HE9km75YW_c3Ji2U9hg62cpogJjWmQP14RQ-YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2f0irQmVKoqSow5Y0+vMrxh7469gHNHmANe1-VBRnVXvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F5B4FB97-34C5-4D60-86F1-688F6B25CDF1@gmail.com>

On Jun 26, 2017, at 5:52 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:25 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 2:05 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Seems to me that's just a classic liberal arts education of the kind that was popular before colleges morphed into glorified trade schools.
>> 
>> ?Why 'just'?
> 
> Because the article made it sound like this was some new innovation rather than a style of education that once widespread.
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree that a classical liberal arts education is worthwhile.M

While I'm not so sure about it being worthwhile, the idea was that it was liberal in the sense that it was for people who were free and usually didn't have to work -- as opposed to becoming a doctor or a lawyer, no? (Or learning other trades.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 09:49:03 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 10:49:03 +0100
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <f7c58e62c3ca8610ba7169962ee4a08f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <f7c58e62c3ca8610ba7169962ee4a08f.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgZbB=nFuXKuaOCaqGDx33Wa8Uaq74QU-E+OPmodf6hJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 26 June 2017 at 17:17, Stuart LaForge  wrote:
> There are several considerations about this situation that give me some
> cause for optimism:
>
> 1. AI are software-based therefore it will likely not be possible for any
> given company to monopolize the use of the AI for its own benefit. I mean
> if the NSA can't keep Stuxnet secure then how would Company X keep its AI
> out of the hands of competitors and ultimately script kiddies? Therefore
> the gradual dissemination of the AI would help ameliorate the inequality.
>

The AI that the author is worried about is the initial, simpler AI
that just automates production in factories and offices. For example,
software like Amazon is implementing to automate running their
distribution centres without human intervention, ordering by computer
with collection and delivery by robots.

This automation will spread to all factories and offices, with
lower-grade employment being the first group affected. So corporations
will become richer, with few employees. This software will be of
little use to the large number of unemployed or script kiddies.


>
> 2. It might be hard, without some heavy-handed top down management by
> government, to protect even the highest paying jobs such as CEOs,
> banksters, hedge fund managers, insurance underwriters etc. from
> automation. I mean if AI can make more efficient resource allocations than
> e.g. Jaime Diamond, what share-holder in their right mind would pay his
> outrageous salary and bonuses?
>

Top-level jobs are much fewer in number and will require much more
advanced AI to replace. This will come in later years, but mass
unemployment will arrive first.


>
> 3. The public sector might benefit from AI as much as the private sector.
> An AI might be better suited to determine optimal tax structures and set
> interest rates for example than congress or the Fed. Hell an AI might be
> better suited to congress itself since it could parse a thousand page bill
> in mere nano seconds in leiu of a congressman who typically can't be
> bothered to actually read it before he votes on it.
>

The public sector will be the cause of great unemployment as the
mostly paper-shuffling jobs will be automated throughout national and
local government. Again, the few top-level political jobs will be the
last to disappear.


>
> 4. As AI gets more generally smart, it would start to recognize that
> profits will be maximized for Company X if consumers can actually afford
> the goods and services provided by Company X. Therefore it might hire
> humans to do busy work for Company X just to be able to have a customer
> base for Company X.
>

Hiring humans for 'busy work' is pointless. Production will be much
cheaper, so prices will reduce drastically and become more affordable.
If the government gives everyone a basic allowance (funded by company
taxation and taxing the few remaining high-paid human workers), then
the population should still be able to buy the much cheaper goods.
This enables human survival, but doesn't provide 'meaning' to human
life.


>
> That's about all I can think of for now, but I think you get my general
> drift. I think AI will be just as disruptive for 0.1% as for the masses
> and those that benefit the most will be the most flexible and adaptable
> and not necessarily the wealthiest. Just my two cents.
>

Being flexible and adaptable is useful at present, but in a future
where automation runs everything? Giving all the unemployed humanity a
reason to live will be required when they can survive without effort.
Society will have to be restructured. Entertainment, caring for each
other, games, sports, and yes, many will become couch potatoes or VR
addicts, drug addicts, etc.
Oh, and a large police force will probably be required (with robot
assistance) to keep the unemployed from creating too much havoc.

It will indeed be a Brave New World.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jun 27 15:30:58 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 08:30:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
Message-ID: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>


>...It will indeed be a Brave New World...BillK
_______________________________________________


Apologies I lost track of the subject line in the thread from a few days ago
regarding the future of education, which is a topic I have been pondering
recently.

I think it was Adrian who commented about a company having the choice of
hiring a college grad with a degree in CS or someone without a college
degree but with a certificate of some sort in the language or software that
company needs.  In only one case does that company know the applicant can do
the job.  I would pick the certified applicant over the degreed one.

Also in the past week we have discussed the value of a liberal arts
education.  I do recognize that debate rages, but at the same time I will
make the claim that a liberal arts education is of little value to a company
in a desperate race to compete in low cost access to space or programming
the latest robot toy.  They don't need that degree and do not want to pay
for it.

Pondering the future of education, the biggest change coming is likely a
rapid expansion in the options for certifying specific skills, analogous to
taking state boards exams for a professional engineer's license.  Is not
that the biggest coming revolution in education?

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 15:58:20 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 10:58:20 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbrhQhZtH-vQ4MMr3+HQz8w9R4=MGRnQXm7NnTenza3vA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:30 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> >...It will indeed be a Brave New World...BillK
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Apologies I lost track of the subject line in the thread from a few days
> ago
> regarding the future of education, which is a topic I have been pondering
> recently.
>
> I think it was Adrian who commented about a company having the choice of
> hiring a college grad with a degree in CS or someone without a college
> degree but with a certificate of some sort in the language or software that
> company needs.  In only one case does that company know the applicant can
> do
> the job.  I would pick the certified applicant over the degreed one.
>
> Also in the past week we have discussed the value of a liberal arts
> education.  I do recognize that debate rages, but at the same time I will
> make the claim that a liberal arts education is of little value to a
> company
> in a desperate race to compete in low cost access to space or programming
> the latest robot toy.  They don't need that degree and do not want to pay
> for it.
>
> Pondering the future of education, the biggest change coming is likely a
> rapid expansion in the options for certifying specific skills, analogous to
> taking state boards exams for a professional engineer's license.  Is not
> that the biggest coming revolution in education?
>
> spike
>

?What's good for the company may not be good for the workers.  No liberal
education means that they are limited to their technical skills - of course
that's all the company wants.

How can one have a decent conversation with a person who has little
knowledge of history, biology, psychology, civics and a lot more?  You
could say, well, they can learn those things in their spare time, and you
are right.  Many will.  But many won't, and many won't have the background
that a professor can give to understand what they are reading.  Do you
really want a population so limited in understanding the modern world?

I also suppose that the skills you are talking about are those that will be
taught to AIs eventually, putting the techs out of work.  If you believe,
as St. John's surely does, that a liberal education can teach one how to
think, then without a liberal education a tech put out of work by an AI is
no more use to society than a 1950s lawnmower (which I remember with utter
disdain and hatred).

bill w

bill w

>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 17:31:56 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:31:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:30 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Also in the past week we have discussed the value of a liberal arts
> education.  I do recognize that debate rages, but at the same time I will
> make the claim that a liberal arts education is of little value to a
> company
> in a desperate race to compete in low cost access to space or programming
> the latest robot toy.  They don't need that degree and do not want to pay
> for it.
>

They don't need that for the worker bees that'll first be replaced by
robots and AIs. They'll wish that their technical and managerial leaders
had it because it gives them a solid foundation in critical thinking,
communication, etc. As a parent or student deciding on trade school vs.
liberal arts education, the former is more for average students/thinkers
who want/need a "safe" route to a likely good-paying job (modulo AI/robot
displacement) and the latter is more for excellent students who want to
hone the skills necessary for a career that can change the future. Think of
it as choosing between the Steve Wozniak path or the Steve Jobs path. As a
techie I admire Wozniak's achievements but it was Jobs who had the vision
that changed the world. We're not far from a Wozniak-level AI but a
Jobs-level AI is basically inconceivable.

Pondering the future of education, the biggest change coming is likely a
> rapid expansion in the options for certifying specific skills, analogous to
> taking state boards exams for a professional engineer's license.  Is not
> that the biggest coming revolution in education?
>

The certification route would certainly be more efficient/faster/cheaper
than the current "4+-year degree followed by work experience" method. But
outcompeting AIs is only going to be an option for a pretty small time
slice.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 18:21:03 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:21:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZv3uX+9sYmLTR8546jyiQ5rEJfSaJ3mufuF7ZGi2q=og@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:30 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Also in the past week we have discussed the value of a liberal arts
>> education.  I do recognize that debate rages, but at the same time I will
>> make the claim that a liberal arts education is of little value to a
>> company
>> in a desperate race to compete in low cost access to space or programming
>> the latest robot toy.  They don't need that degree and do not want to pay
>> for it.
>>
>
> They don't need that for the worker bees that'll first be replaced by
> robots and AIs. They'll wish that their technical and managerial leaders
> had it because it gives them a solid foundation in critical thinking,
> communication, etc. As a parent or student deciding on trade school vs.
> liberal arts education, the former is more for average students/thinkers
> who want/need a "safe" route to a likely good-paying job (modulo AI/robot
> displacement) and the latter is more for excellent students who want to
> hone the skills necessary for a career that can change the future. Think of
> it as choosing between the Steve Wozniak path or the Steve Jobs path. As a
> techie I admire Wozniak's achievements but it was Jobs who had the vision
> that changed the world. We're not far from a Wozniak-level AI but a
> Jobs-level AI is basically inconceivable.
>
> Pondering the future of education, the biggest change coming is likely a
>> rapid expansion in the options for certifying specific skills, analogous
>> to
>> taking state boards exams for a professional engineer's license.  Is not
>> that the biggest coming revolution in education?
>>
>
> The certification route would certainly be more efficient/faster/cheaper
> than the current "4+-year degree followed by work experience" method. But
> outcompeting AIs is only going to be an option for a pretty small time
> slice.
>
> -Dave
>

?Are you saying, Dave, that the 'worker bees' have no use for the degrees,
or that the company has no use for those with them compared to ones who
don't?  I am pretty sure that you are saying the latter, but want to
confirm.  bill w?

>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 16:30:34 2017
From: ginakathleenmiller at gmail.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 10:30:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] My latest digital art
Message-ID: <CAMd8APz8xU1FTv46wK4oXswS52ydmoR+A5wmsm=3tuUFJA56zQ@mail.gmail.com>

My latest digital artwork "The Big Thought" or "The Question of the Cosmos".

[image: Inline image 1]

Onward and upward! Gina

-- 
Gina Miller
millermarketing.co
nanoindustries.com
nanogirl.com
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 18:31:41 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:31:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZv3uX+9sYmLTR8546jyiQ5rEJfSaJ3mufuF7ZGi2q=og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZv3uX+9sYmLTR8546jyiQ5rEJfSaJ3mufuF7ZGi2q=og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2exccr4nveY+NmCfVYy1XgSComYh6vfybFv5wrxVVbk1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 2:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?Are you saying, Dave, that the 'worker bees' have no use for the degrees,
> or that the company has no use for those with them compared to ones who
> don't?  I am pretty sure that you are saying the latter, but want to
> confirm.  bill w?
>
>>
Worker bees in entry-level tech jobs won't have much use for a liberal arts
education, so it's of little value to the employer. But to the worker bee
who aspires to something greater than assembling widgets and doesn't want
to risk becoming obsoleted by AI, I think it's a definite asset.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Jun 27 19:14:59 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:14:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] kraut robot makes sobers the horses
Message-ID: <03b401d2ef79$ac4c2b80$04e48280$@att.net>

 

This is the kind of thing I envision for most self-drivers.  It doesn't need
to do everything, just the stuff that computers do well but bipeds do not:

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pkeiv7hZy_Y?rel=0

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 20:37:21 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 15:37:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2exccr4nveY+NmCfVYy1XgSComYh6vfybFv5wrxVVbk1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZv3uX+9sYmLTR8546jyiQ5rEJfSaJ3mufuF7ZGi2q=og@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2exccr4nveY+NmCfVYy1XgSComYh6vfybFv5wrxVVbk1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbDsuPPfy79JTO32nj_w2Q_1p+P3KWBVMy=Km+rN_5u8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 1:31 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 2:21 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ?Are you saying, Dave, that the 'worker bees' have no use for the
>> degrees, or that the company has no use for those with them compared to
>> ones who don't?  I am pretty sure that you are saying the latter, but want
>> to confirm.  bill w?
>>
>>>
> Worker bees in entry-level tech jobs won't have much use for a liberal
> arts education, so it's of little value to the employer. But to the worker
> bee who aspires to something greater than assembling widgets and doesn't
> want to risk becoming obsoleted by AI, I think it's a definite asset.
>
> -Dave
>

?I fully agree and will only add that the liberal education will always be
an asset in their personal lives, whether they know it or not. It might
also help them rise above the widget-making level at their company.

 bill w?

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Jun 27 22:45:26 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2017 22:45:26 +0000
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 28 Jun 2017 at 3:42 am, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:30 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>> Also in the past week we have discussed the value of a liberal arts
>> education.  I do recognize that debate rages, but at the same time I will
>> make the claim that a liberal arts education is of little value to a
>> company
>> in a desperate race to compete in low cost access to space or programming
>> the latest robot toy.  They don't need that degree and do not want to pay
>> for it.
>>
>
> They don't need that for the worker bees that'll first be replaced by
> robots and AIs. They'll wish that their technical and managerial leaders
> had it because it gives them a solid foundation in critical thinking,
> communication, etc. As a parent or student deciding on trade school vs.
> liberal arts education, the former is more for average students/thinkers
> who want/need a "safe" route to a likely good-paying job (modulo AI/robot
> displacement) and the latter is more for excellent students who want to
> hone the skills necessary for a career that can change the future. Think of
> it as choosing between the Steve Wozniak path or the Steve Jobs path. As a
> techie I admire Wozniak's achievements but it was Jobs who had the vision
> that changed the world. We're not far from a Wozniak-level AI but a
> Jobs-level AI is basically inconceivable.
>
> Pondering the future of education, the biggest change coming is likely a
>> rapid expansion in the options for certifying specific skills, analogous
>> to
>> taking state boards exams for a professional engineer's license.  Is not
>> that the biggest coming revolution in education?
>>
>
> The certification route would certainly be more efficient/faster/cheaper
> than the current "4+-year degree followed by work experience" method. But
> outcompeting AIs is only going to be an option for a pretty small time
> slice.
>

Wozniak could make new things while Jobs could only market things that
others made. The world needs more Wozniaks than Jobs.
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Jun 28 20:02:58 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 16:02:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>

https://qz.com/1016900/tracy-chou-leading-silicon-valley-engineer-explains-why-every-tech-worker-needs-a-humanities-education/

In 2005, the late writer David Foster Wallace delivered a now-famous
commencement address. It starts with the story of the fish in water, who
spend their lives not even knowing what water is. They are naively unaware
of the ocean that permits their existence, and the currents that carry them.

The most important education we can receive, Wallace goes on to explain,
?isn?t really about the capacity to think, but rather about the choice of
what to think about.? He talks about finding appreciation for the richness
of humanity and society. But it is the core concept of meta-cognition, of
examining and editing what it is that we choose to contemplate, that has
fixated me as someone who works in the tech industry.

As much as code and computation and data can feel as if they are
mechanistically neutral, they are not. Technology products and services are
built by humans who build their biases and flawed thinking right into those
products and services?which in turn shapes human behavior and society,
sometimes to a frightening degree. It?s arguable, for example, that online
media?s reliance on clickbait journalism, and Facebook?s role in spreading
?fake news? or otherwise sensationalized stories influenced the results of
the 2016 US presidential election. This criticism is far from
outward-facing; it comes from a place of self-reflection.

I studied engineering at Stanford University, and at the time I thought
that was all I needed to study. I focused on problem-solving in the
technical domain, and learned to see the world through the lens of
equations, axioms, and lines of code. I found beauty and elegance in
well-formulated optimization problems, tidy mathematical proofs, clever
time- and space-efficient algorithms. Humanities classes, by contrast, I
felt to be dreary, overwrought exercises in finding meaning where there was
none. I dutifully completed my general education requirements in ethical
reasoning and global community. But I was dismissive of the idea that there
was any real value to be gleaned from the coursework.

Upon graduation, I went off to work as a software engineer at a small
startup, Quora, then composed of only four people. Partly as a function of
it being my first full-time job, and partly because the company and our
product?a question and answer site?was so nascent, I found myself for the
first time deeply considering what it was that I was working on, and to
what end, and why.

I was no longer operating in a world circumscribed by lesson plans, problem
sets and programming assignments, and intended course outcomes. I also
wasn?t coding to specs, because there were no specs. As my teammates and I
were building the product, we were also simultaneously defining what it
should be, whom it would serve, what behaviors we wanted to incentivize
amongst our users, what kind of community it would become, and what kind of
value we hoped to create in the world.

I still loved immersing myself in code and falling into a state of
flow?those hours-long intensive coding sessions where I could put
everything else aside and focus solely on the engineering tasks at hand.
But I also came to realize that such disengagement from reality and
societal context could only be temporary.

The first feature I built when I worked at Quora was the block button. Even
when the community numbered only in the thousands, there were already
people who seemed to delight in being obnoxious and offensive. I was eager
to work on the feature because I personally felt antagonized and abused on
the site (gender isn?t an unlikely reason as to why). As such, I had an
immediate desire to make use of a blocking function. But if I hadn?t had
that personal perspective, it?s possible that the Quora team wouldn?t have
prioritized building a block button so early in its existence.

Our thinking around anti-harassment design also intersected a great deal
with our thinking on free speech and moderation. We pondered the
philosophical question?also very relevant to our product?of whether people
were by default good or bad. If people were mostly good, then we would
design the product around the idea that we could trust users, with controls
for rolling back the actions of bad actors in the exceptional cases. If
they were by default bad, it would be better to put all user contributions
and edits through approvals queues for moderator review.

We debated the implications for open discourse: If we trusted users by
default, and then we had an influx of ?low quality? users (and how
appropriate was it, even, to be labeling users in such a way?), what kind
of deteriorative effect might that have on the community? But if we didn?t
trust Quora members, and instead always gave preference to existing users
that were known to be ?high quality,? would we end up with an opinionated,
ossified, old-guard, niche community that rejected newcomers and new
thoughts?

In the end, we chose to bias ourselves toward an open and free platform,
believing not only in people but also in positive community norms and our
ability to shape those through engineering and design. Perhaps, and
probably, that was the right call. But we?ve also seen how the same bias in
the design of another, pithier public platform has empowered and elevated
abusers, harassers, and trolls to levels of national and international
concern.

At Quora, and later at Pinterest, I also worked on the algorithms powering
their respective homefeeds: the streams of content presented to users upon
initial login, the default views we pushed to users. It seems simple enough
to want to show users ?good? content when they open up an app. But what
makes for good content? Is the goal to help users to discover new ideas and
expand their intellectual and creative horizons? To show them exactly the
sort of content that they know they already like? Or, most easily
measurable, to show them the content they?re most likely to click on and
share, and that will make them spend the most time on the service?

Ruefully?and with some embarrassment at my younger self?s condescending
attitude toward the humanities?I now wish that I had strived for a proper
liberal arts education. That I?d learned how to think critically about the
world we live in and how to engage with it. That I?d absorbed lessons about
how to identify and interrogate privilege, power structures, structural
inequality, and injustice. That I?d had opportunities to debate my peers
and develop informed opinions on philosophy and morality. And even more
than all of that, I wish I?d even realized that these were worthwhile
thoughts to fill my mind with?that all of my engineering work would be
contextualized by such subjects.

It worries me that so many of the builders of technology today are people
like me; people haven?t spent anywhere near enough time thinking about
these larger questions of what it is that we are building, and what the
implications are for the world.

But it is never too late to be curious. Each of us can choose to learn, to
read, to talk to people, to travel, and to engage intellectually and
ethically. I hope that we all do so?so that we can come to acknowledge the
full complexity and wonder of the world we live in, and be thoughtful in
designing the future of it.
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 03:24:33 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 20:24:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] brave new world in education

 

https://qz.com/1016900/tracy-chou-leading-silicon-valley-engineer-explains-why-every-tech-worker-needs-a-humanities-education/

 

>?In 2005, the late writer David Foster Wallace delivered a now-famous commencement address?But it is never too late to be curious. Each of us can choose to learn, to read, to talk to people, to travel, and to engage intellectually and ethically. I hope that we all do so?so that we can come to acknowledge the full complexity and wonder of the world we live in, and be thoughtful in designing the future of it?  Dave Sill?s quoted article by Tracy Chou

 

 

What if? we decided to teach humanities to the technogeeks, but instead of the usual curriculum taught by the usual suspects, we put the science, technology, engineering and math departments together and have them decide on a curriculum, completely open blank slate, have them choose from among their own STEM-oriented profs to teach it, decide on what to teach, what materials to use, everything, hand it over to that end of campus.  

 

What would the course look like?

 

We can pretend we are those professors, so we get a say in what goes into that STEM-derived humanities course.  What would you suggest putting in there?

 

I would have Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  But you already knew I would have that one, ja?

 

Others?

 

spike

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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jun 29 05:48:39 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2017 22:48:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
Message-ID: <3fe427e1d0d9f16b70e7d3367ce92186.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:


> The AI that the author is worried about is the initial, simpler AI
> that just automates production in factories and offices. For example,
> software like Amazon is implementing to automate running their
> distribution centres without human intervention, ordering by computer with
> collection and delivery by robots.
>
> This automation will spread to all factories and offices, with
> lower-grade employment being the first group affected. So corporations will
> become richer, with few employees. This software will be of little use to
> the large number of unemployed or script kiddies.

>From what I have heard, working conditions in those places can be pretty
brutal: walking something like 10-12 miles in total, carrying up to fifty
pound pakages for ten hours a day while on your feet the whole time.
Employment is usually seasonal with only a small cadre of permanent
employees. Any job that treats its employees like machines is probably
best done by machines.

> Top-level jobs are much fewer in number and will require much more
> advanced AI to replace. This will come in later years, but mass
> unemployment will arrive first.

One would hope that low-level workers would be seen by their higher ups as
the canaries in the coal mine. I don't think that many top-level jobs
would require much more sophisticated software than many lower-level ones.
Is an AI that decides to buy, sell, or hold a stock based on market data
that much more sophisticated than an AI truck driver having to constantly
adjust to traffic, road conditions, and enviromental cues?


> The public sector will be the cause of great unemployment as the
> mostly paper-shuffling jobs will be automated throughout national and local
> government. Again, the few top-level political jobs will be the last to
> disappear.

Yes, mass unemployment will likely be inevitable, but it cannot occur
without the resultant changes rippling throughout all of society. And if
the elite think they will not be affected, they are sorely mistaken. For
example, who would you want to run a fully automated government bureau?
The smarmy political type which is today's norm or an engineer with a
cursory legal background?

> Hiring humans for 'busy work' is pointless. Production will be much
> cheaper, so prices will reduce drastically and become more affordable. If
> the government gives everyone a basic allowance (funded by company
> taxation and taxing the few remaining high-paid human workers), then the
> population should still be able to buy the much cheaper goods. This
> enables human survival, but doesn't provide 'meaning' to human life.

I agree that UBI will become necessary if civilization is to remain
intact. If our so called leaders want to keep their heads attached to
their shoulders, they will have little choice than to enact it. What I
disagree with is the notion that UBI will cause people to lose their
"purpose" or "meaning".

It is preposterous to think that flipping burgers or waiting tables gives
people purpose. I would instead warrant that the majority who work such
menial jobs do so because they must and not necessarily because they want
to.

At worst such jobs distract them from questioning the meaning of their
lives and at best those jobs afford them the resources to pursue their
desired purposes which could range from anything from supporting their
families to allowing them to pursue their hobbies or even keeping them
sedated on their drugs of choice including religion. All automation and AI
will do is eliminate the middle-man that stands between someone and his or
her purpose.

> Being flexible and adaptable is useful at present, but in a future
> where automation runs everything? Giving all the unemployed humanity a
> reason to live will be required when they can survive without effort.
> Society will have to be restructured. Entertainment, caring for each
> other, games, sports, and yes, many will become couch potatoes or VR
> addicts, drug addicts, etc. Oh, and a large police force will probably be
> required (with robot assistance) to keep the unemployed from creating too
> much havoc.

Flexibility and adapability have served us well for 3.5 billion years
since the days that we were primordial slime. I seriously doubt a few
thinking machines will change all that. In the spirit of the creative
destruction of evolution, some niches will disappear completely while
whole new others will open up. That's how it has always worked since the
first life and how it will work up until the last life.

Automation and UBI cannot take away any more meaning from human life than
existentialism as a philosophy did over a century ago. Life has always
been absurd so sometimes you just have to laugh, dance, and enjoy the
moment. And just think, in a scant few decades, humans will for the first
time ever have fellow minds with which to share the joke of conscious
experience.

> It will indeed be a Brave New World.

I don't know about you, but courage and novelty turn me on. We all see the
writing on the wall and that cannot but work to our advantage. I say let
this new world begin! :-)

Stuart LaForge






From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 09:36:48 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:36:48 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Racing DIY autonomous cars
Message-ID: <CAL_armiOL+hM8-42fwFsAA0gBVvOrj4rPVjU=gC7gWW6jh4khg@mail.gmail.com>

Hackers in West Oakland are racing DIY autonomous cars ? and it may
revolutionize your ride
By Erin Baldassari | ebaldassari at bayareanewsgroup.com | Bay Area News Group
PUBLISHED: June 24, 2017 at 11:59 am

<http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/24/hackers-in-west-oakland-are-racing-diy-autonomous-cars-and-it-may-revolutionize-your-ride/>

Quotes:
Each month, anywhere from a few dozen to 100 people gather at a vacant
West Oakland warehouse. There?s no electricity and no flush toilets,
just a handful of folding tables and a race course hastily etched in
white and yellow paint on the concrete floor, where teams of hackers
go head-to-head in a battle to see whose car is fastest, or at least,
which one can complete the course.

These pint-sized vehicles aren?t as sophisticated as the self-driving
cars engineered by Tesla or Google but, at under $300 to make and
often assembled on site, they?re ideal for testing the technology
because they?re cheap, don?t require human safety drivers and can
crash without anybody getting hurt or killed, Anderson said.

And that ability to crash and learn from mistakes has already produced
major gains, said William Roscoe, a programmer and early participant
in the monthly meetup. It took three months before one car could
complete the track, he said, but since then, they?ve watched as the
race times have dropped by a factor of three. In just a few more
months, Roscoe?s teammate, Adam Conway, thinks the cars could approach
the speed of a vehicle with a human driver behind the wheel, and one
day, even surpass them.

For more information on the monthly meetup, visit
<https://www.meetup.com/DIYRobocars/>.

-------------------------

Something for Spike to have a look at??????  :)

BillK



From cryptaxe at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 09:43:15 2017
From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 02:43:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Racing DIY autonomous cars
In-Reply-To: <CAF5CFki0A0fWisrMj6TFaGSf9We8JtALpLpGu-2wHJKB=QzxAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiOL+hM8-42fwFsAA0gBVvOrj4rPVjU=gC7gWW6jh4khg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFkimujcbowwC9Ki3cmvrX_WozAViMOsJXt=scRuNqu=JmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFki0A0fWisrMj6TFaGSf9We8JtALpLpGu-2wHJKB=QzxAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF5CFkg72K8KyCzrov7DFg-tVnAuM=rjgD7OfgPfk+wnW2vKsQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is awesome, thank you for posting it.

On Jun 29, 2017 2:41 AM, "BillK" <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

Hackers in West Oakland are racing DIY autonomous cars ? and it may
revolutionize your ride
By Erin Baldassari | ebaldassari at bayareanewsgroup.com | Bay Area News Group
PUBLISHED: June 24, 2017 at 11:59 am

<http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/24/hackers-in-west-
oakland-are-racing-diy-autonomous-cars-and-it-may-revolutionize-your-ride/>

Quotes:
Each month, anywhere from a few dozen to 100 people gather at a vacant
West Oakland warehouse. There?s no electricity and no flush toilets,
just a handful of folding tables and a race course hastily etched in
white and yellow paint on the concrete floor, where teams of hackers
go head-to-head in a battle to see whose car is fastest, or at least,
which one can complete the course.

These pint-sized vehicles aren?t as sophisticated as the self-driving
cars engineered by Tesla or Google but, at under $300 to make and
often assembled on site, they?re ideal for testing the technology
because they?re cheap, don?t require human safety drivers and can
crash without anybody getting hurt or killed, Anderson said.

And that ability to crash and learn from mistakes has already produced
major gains, said William Roscoe, a programmer and early participant
in the monthly meetup. It took three months before one car could
complete the track, he said, but since then, they?ve watched as the
race times have dropped by a factor of three. In just a few more
months, Roscoe?s teammate, Adam Conway, thinks the cars could approach
the speed of a vehicle with a human driver behind the wheel, and one
day, even surpass them.

For more information on the monthly meetup, visit
<https://www.meetup.com/DIYRobocars/>.

-------------------------

Something for Spike to have a look at??????  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
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http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 10:20:50 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:20:50 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Smart Quadcopters Find their Way without Human Help or GPS
Message-ID: <CAL_armh07-nYjPovy64xfGBRbqEYqdNDmneta1foMwZkSHn2gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Milestone series of tests have quadcopters slaloming through
woodlands, swerving around obstacles in a hangar, and reporting back
to their starting point all by themselves
outreach at darpa.mil   6/28/2017

<http://www.darpa.mil/news-events/2017-06-28>

Quotes:

Phase 1 of DARPA?s Fast Lightweight Autonomy (FLA) program concluded
recently following a series of obstacle-course flight tests in central
Florida. Over four days, three teams of DARPA-supported researchers
huddled under shade tents in the sweltering Florida sun, fine-tuning
their sensor-laden quadcopter unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) during
the intervals between increasingly difficult runs.

DARPA?s FLA program is advancing technology to enable small unmanned
quadcopters to fly autonomously through cluttered buildings and
obstacle-strewn environments at fast speeds (up to 20 meters per
second, or 45 mph) using onboard cameras and sensors as ?eyes? and
smart algorithms to self-navigate. Potential applications for the
technology include safely and quickly scanning for threats inside a
building before military teams enter, searching for a downed pilot in
a heavily forested area or jungle in hostile territory where overhead
imagery can?t see through the tree canopy, or locating survivors
following earthquakes or other disasters when entering a damaged
structure could be unsafe.

"I was impressed with the capabilities the teams achieved in Phase 1,?
Led? said. ?We?re looking forward to Phase 2 to further refine and
build on the valuable lessons we?ve learned. We?ve still got quite a
bit of work to do to enable full autonomy for the wide-ranging
scenarios we tested, but I think the algorithms we?re developing could
soon be used to augment existing GPS-dependent UAVs for some
applications. For example, existing UAVs could use GPS until the air
vehicle enters a building, and then FLA algorithms would take over
while indoors, while ensuring collision-free flight throughout. I
think that kind of synergy between GPS-reliant systems and our new FLA
capabilities could be very powerful in the relatively near future.?

------------------


And of course, once that software is complete we then have autonomous
flying taxis for people.


BillK



From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 13:04:06 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:04:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fOuJ0mZu+BT=JqskrxarCmN8NEL2gk4vTGA5phQ_5iiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:24 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> What if? we decided to teach humanities to the technogeeks, but instead of
> the usual curriculum taught by the usual suspects, we put the science,
> technology, engineering and math departments together and have them decide
> on a curriculum, completely open blank slate, have them choose from among
> their own STEM-oriented profs to teach it, decide on what to teach, what
> materials to use, everything, hand it over to that end of campus.
>

Well, any attempt to broaden education would probably be worthwhile, but
for the full effect I think it needs to be an immersive experience guided
by experienced teachers. It's not just about reading literature, it's about
writing papers, learning logic, learning to discuss/debate ideas, etc.

What would the course look like?
>
>
>
> We can pretend we are those professors, so we get a say in what goes into
> that STEM-derived humanities course.  What would you suggest putting in
> there?
>
>
>
> I would have Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  But you already knew I would
> have that one, ja?
>
>
>
> Others?
>

Brave New World, Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451, To Kill a Mockingbird, ... I
could go on.

-Dave
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 13:54:13 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:54:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKrnKs=+nY08dWsi9dDN+SB+sma2SovSV+QWSmV61=Ndw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:24 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> What if? we decided to teach humanities to the technogeeks, but instead of
> the usual curriculum taught by the usual suspects, we put the science,
> technology, engineering and math departments together and have them decide
> on a curriculum, completely open blank slate, have them choose from among
> their own STEM-oriented profs to teach it, decide on what to teach, what
> materials to use, everything, hand it over to that end of campus.
>
>
>
> What would the course look like?
>
>
>
> We can pretend we are those professors, so we get a say in what goes into
> that STEM-derived humanities course.  What would you suggest putting in
> there?
>
>
>
> I would have Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  But you already knew I would
> have that one, ja?
>
>
>
>
prereq to *Nineteen Eighty Four*, I'd start with *Guns, Germs, and Steel*
then frame technological and cultural identity as similar weapons as a
segue to

*The Selfish Gene.*
On a more practical path... or on the path of more practicality:

*The Design of Everyday Things*
It would probably also be a good idea to examine "current events" and "pop
culture" through the lens of shaping/guiding from now 'til tomorrow.
(hmm... that would be a good book title, eh?  *From Now 'til Tomorrow*  )
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 14:04:42 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:04:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>

The US Navy decided to use electrical linear induction motors rather than
steam for its catapults to launch airplanes in its newest aircraft carriers
because it's lighter, more powerful, requires less maintenance and needs
fewer people to run. Electromagnetic catapults unlike steam can have
negative feed back and so provide smoother acceleration and thus are less
jerky and gentler with the aircraft and extending their lifetime. And they
can be used on both heavier and lighter aircraft than steam can. This is
what that great scientist and thinker Donald Trump thinks of
electromagnetic linear induction catapults:

?*"?*
*You know the catapult is quite important. So I said what is this? Sir,
this is our digital catapult system. He said well, we?re going to this
because we wanted to keep up with modern [technology]. I said you don?t use
steam anymore for catapult? No sir. I said, "Ah, how is it working?" "Sir,
not good. Not good. Doesn?t have the power. You know the steam is just
brutal. You see that sucker going and steam?s going all over the place,
there?s planes thrown in the air.? ?It sounded bad to me. Digital. They
have digital. What is digital? And it?s very complicated, you have to be
Albert Einstein to figure it out.  I said what system are you going to
be?"Sir, we?re staying with digital." I said no you?re not. You going to
goddamned steam?!"?*

?John K Clark?
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 14:06:02 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:06:02 -0400
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKrnKs=+nY08dWsi9dDN+SB+sma2SovSV+QWSmV61=Ndw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbKrnKs=+nY08dWsi9dDN+SB+sma2SovSV+QWSmV61=Ndw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dC0BdP4iDhO4-baPepQvO6F1B+FCivKK09og6Esa-42g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

> *From Now 'til Tomorrow*


"Till" is a perfectly good word.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 14:20:17 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:20:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:04 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> The US Navy decided to use electrical linear induction motors rather than
> steam for its catapults to launch airplanes in its newest aircraft carriers
> because it's lighter, more powerful, requires less maintenance and needs
> fewer people to run. Electromagnetic catapults unlike steam can have
> negative feed back and so provide smoother acceleration and thus are less
> jerky and gentler with the aircraft and extending their lifetime. And they
> can be used on both heavier and lighter aircraft than steam can. This is
> what that great scientist and thinker Donald Trump thinks of
> electromagnetic linear induction catapults:
>
> ?*"?*
> *You know the catapult is quite important. So I said what is this? Sir,
> this is our digital catapult system. He said well, we?re going to this
> because we wanted to keep up with modern [technology]. I said you don?t use
> steam anymore for catapult? No sir. I said, "Ah, how is it working?" "Sir,
> not good. Not good. Doesn?t have the power. You know the steam is just
> brutal. You see that sucker going and steam?s going all over the place,
> there?s planes thrown in the air.? ?It sounded bad to me. Digital. They
> have digital. What is digital? And it?s very complicated, you have to be
> Albert Einstein to figure it out.  I said what system are you going to
> be?"Sir, we?re staying with digital." I said no you?re not. You going to
> goddamned steam?!"?*
>

Yes, Trump's an idiot. Good thing it's Congress that determines the
military budget. And good thing aircraft carriers are pretty much obsolete.
I'm OK with sticking with steam or not building new aircraft carriers or
cutting the defense budget in half or...

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 14:43:16 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:43:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2b3LEM4XE+WBUqCBkN165Q9sfxWxGrpWvKbJmg3zH7jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Yes, Trump's an idiot.


?Doesn't it bother you that the most powerful man in the world is an idiot??


?> ?
> good thing aircraft carriers are pretty much obsolete.


?Only if warfare ?itself is obsolete and that would indeed be a very good
thing, but in every

?armed conflict the US has been involved in since the First World War ?
aircraft carriers
? have played a key role, and I can find little indication that's ?going to
change anytime soon. You could perhaps argue that the US shouldn't project
its force, but if you want to project force
aircraft carriers
? are the way to do it. Not surprising really given the fact that ?71% of
the Earth's surface is water.

John K Clark


>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 14:59:26 2017
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dC0BdP4iDhO4-baPepQvO6F1B+FCivKK09og6Esa-42g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbKrnKs=+nY08dWsi9dDN+SB+sma2SovSV+QWSmV61=Ndw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dC0BdP4iDhO4-baPepQvO6F1B+FCivKK09og6Esa-42g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbBcJO+LXhMTXqgQb5L6Fz1DES+RRDwQAZPbRxaAUe6L=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> From Now 'til Tomorrow
>
>
> "Till" is a perfectly good word.
>
> -Dave

"Till" can also mean the money in a cash drawer or to turn over soil.
Using 'til makes the meaning immediately obvious.


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 15:04:54 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 08:04:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2b3LEM4XE+WBUqCBkN165Q9sfxWxGrpWvKbJmg3zH7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2b3LEM4XE+WBUqCBkN165Q9sfxWxGrpWvKbJmg3zH7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E6231A85-E9A8-487A-AD44-AAA3DA3F069A@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2017, at 7:43 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?> ?Yes, Trump's an idiot.
> 
> ?Doesn't it bother you that the most powerful man in the world is an idiot?? 

Doesn't it bother that there should be a most powerful person in the world?

>> ?> ?good thing aircraft carriers are pretty much obsolete.
> 
> ?Only if warfare ?itself is obsolete and that would indeed be a very good thing, but in every ?armed conflict the US has been involved in since the First World War ?aircraft carriers? have played a key role, and I can find little indication that's ?going to change anytime soon. You could perhaps argue that the US shouldn't project its force, but if you want to project force aircraft carriers? are the way to do it. Not surprising really given the fact that ?71% of the Earth's surface is water.

I believe Dave is against the US elite projecting force -- whether their figurehead is one you drool over or not. Aircraft carriers in particular are really just big floating offensive weapons used to keep imperial subjects in line.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From pharos at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 15:05:01 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:05:01 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armh2Wm1TOD1dN8VBWf_HG2JaHLuXoT1QyjBofrOFggo6yA@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 June 2017 at 15:20, Dave Sill wrote:
> Yes, Trump's an idiot. Good thing it's Congress that determines the military
> budget. And good thing aircraft carriers are pretty much obsolete. I'm OK
> with sticking with steam or not building new aircraft carriers or cutting
> the defense budget in half or...
>

Trump didn't need to talk to a sailor about electronic catapults. Just
search on EMALS problems.

Now that Russia and China have hypersonic guided missiles carriers are
sitting ducks.

And China now also has quantum radar that makes the F35 stealth
technology useless, so that the F35 becomes the most expensive fighter
in history and worse in performance than the previous generation.

The US military budget is the biggest boondoggle in history. The
military / industrial complex rakes in the money while the national
infrastructure collapses and the people suffer.

BillK


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 15:25:30 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 08:25:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Racing DIY autonomous cars
In-Reply-To: <CAF5CFkg72K8KyCzrov7DFg-tVnAuM=rjgD7OfgPfk+wnW2vKsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiOL+hM8-42fwFsAA0gBVvOrj4rPVjU=gC7gWW6jh4khg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFkimujcbowwC9Ki3cmvrX_WozAViMOsJXt=scRuNqu=JmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFki0A0fWisrMj6TFaGSf9We8JtALpLpGu-2wHJKB=QzxAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF5CFkg72K8KyCzrov7DFg-tVnAuM=rjgD7OfgPfk+wnW2vKsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01c301d2f0eb$f4e4ecb0$deaec610$@att.net>

I just RSVPed for it.  Aughta be fun.

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of CryptAxe
Subject: Re: [ExI] Racing DIY autonomous cars

 

 

 

 

>?This is awesome, thank you for posting it. 

 

 

I just RSVPed for it.  Aughta be fun.  Thanks for posting it BillK.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Jun 29, 2017 2:41 AM, "BillK" <pharos at gmail.com <mailto:pharos at gmail.com> > wrote:

Hackers in West Oakland are racing DIY autonomous cars ? and it may
revolutionize your ride
By Erin Baldassari | ebaldassari at bayareanewsgroup.com <mailto:ebaldassari at bayareanewsgroup.com>  | Bay Area News Group
PUBLISHED: June 24, 2017 at 11:59 am

<http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/06/24/hackers-in-west-oakland-are-racing-diy-autonomous-cars-and-it-may-revolutionize-your-ride/>

Quotes:
Each month, anywhere from a few dozen to 100 people gather at a vacant
West Oakland warehouse. There?s no electricity and no flush toilets,
just a handful of folding tables and a race course hastily etched in
white and yellow paint on the concrete floor, where teams of hackers
go head-to-head in a battle to see whose car is fastest, or at least,
which one can complete the course?.For more information on the monthly meetup, visit
<https://www.meetup.com/DIYRobocars/>.

-------------------------

Something for Spike to have a look at??????  :)

BillK

_______________________________________________



 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 15:42:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:42:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaoFCQsTm3zVnBzZ9o9LSjEmsawLFEFxBUuJ8dLk9Fv+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://qz.com/1016900/tracy-chou-leading-silicon-valley-
> engineer-explains-why-every-tech-worker-needs-a-humanities-education/
>
> In 2005, the late writer David Foster Wallace delivered a now-famous
> commencement address. It starts with the story of the fish in water, who
> spend their lives not even knowing what water is. They are naively unaware
> of the ocean that permits their existence, and the currents that carry them.
>
> The most important education we can receive, Wallace goes on to explain,
> ?isn?t really about the capacity to think, but rather about the choice of
> what to think about.? He talks about finding appreciation for the richness
> of humanity and society. But it is the core concept of meta-cognition, of
> examining and editing what it is that we choose to contemplate, that has
> fixated me as someone who works in the tech industry.
>
> As much as code and computation and data can feel as if they are
> mechanistically neutral, they are not. Technology products and services are
> built by humans who build their biases and flawed thinking right into those
> products and services?which in turn shapes human behavior and society,
> sometimes to a frightening degree. It?s arguable, for example, that online
> media?s reliance on clickbait journalism, and Facebook?s role in spreading
> ?fake news? or otherwise sensationalized stories influenced the results of
> the 2016 US presidential election. This criticism is far from
> outward-facing; it comes from a place of self-reflection.
>
> I studied engineering at Stanford University, and at the time I thought
> that was all I needed to study. I focused on problem-solving in the
> technical domain, and learned to see the world through the lens of
> equations, axioms, and lines of code. I found beauty and elegance in
> well-formulated optimization problems, tidy mathematical proofs, clever
> time- and space-efficient algorithms. Humanities classes, by contrast, I
> felt to be dreary, overwrought exercises in finding meaning where there was
> none. I dutifully completed my general education requirements in ethical
> reasoning and global community. But I was dismissive of the idea that there
> was any real value to be gleaned from the coursework.
>
> Upon graduation, I went off to work as a software engineer at a small
> startup, Quora, then composed of only four people. Partly as a function of
> it being my first full-time job, and partly because the company and our
> product?a question and answer site?was so nascent, I found myself for the
> first time deeply considering what it was that I was working on, and to
> what end, and why.
>
> I was no longer operating in a world circumscribed by lesson plans,
> problem sets and programming assignments, and intended course outcomes. I
> also wasn?t coding to specs, because there were no specs. As my teammates
> and I were building the product, we were also simultaneously defining what
> it should be, whom it would serve, what behaviors we wanted to incentivize
> amongst our users, what kind of community it would become, and what kind of
> value we hoped to create in the world.
>
> I still loved immersing myself in code and falling into a state of
> flow?those hours-long intensive coding sessions where I could put
> everything else aside and focus solely on the engineering tasks at hand.
> But I also came to realize that such disengagement from reality and
> societal context could only be temporary.
>
> The first feature I built when I worked at Quora was the block button.
> Even when the community numbered only in the thousands, there were already
> people who seemed to delight in being obnoxious and offensive. I was eager
> to work on the feature because I personally felt antagonized and abused on
> the site (gender isn?t an unlikely reason as to why). As such, I had an
> immediate desire to make use of a blocking function. But if I hadn?t had
> that personal perspective, it?s possible that the Quora team wouldn?t have
> prioritized building a block button so early in its existence.
>
> Our thinking around anti-harassment design also intersected a great deal
> with our thinking on free speech and moderation. We pondered the
> philosophical question?also very relevant to our product?of whether people
> were by default good or bad. If people were mostly good, then we would
> design the product around the idea that we could trust users, with controls
> for rolling back the actions of bad actors in the exceptional cases. If
> they were by default bad, it would be better to put all user contributions
> and edits through approvals queues for moderator review.
>
> We debated the implications for open discourse: If we trusted users by
> default, and then we had an influx of ?low quality? users (and how
> appropriate was it, even, to be labeling users in such a way?), what kind
> of deteriorative effect might that have on the community? But if we didn?t
> trust Quora members, and instead always gave preference to existing users
> that were known to be ?high quality,? would we end up with an opinionated,
> ossified, old-guard, niche community that rejected newcomers and new
> thoughts?
>
> In the end, we chose to bias ourselves toward an open and free platform,
> believing not only in people but also in positive community norms and our
> ability to shape those through engineering and design. Perhaps, and
> probably, that was the right call. But we?ve also seen how the same bias in
> the design of another, pithier public platform has empowered and elevated
> abusers, harassers, and trolls to levels of national and international
> concern.
>
> At Quora, and later at Pinterest, I also worked on the algorithms powering
> their respective homefeeds: the streams of content presented to users upon
> initial login, the default views we pushed to users. It seems simple enough
> to want to show users ?good? content when they open up an app. But what
> makes for good content? Is the goal to help users to discover new ideas and
> expand their intellectual and creative horizons? To show them exactly the
> sort of content that they know they already like? Or, most easily
> measurable, to show them the content they?re most likely to click on and
> share, and that will make them spend the most time on the service?
>
> Ruefully?and with some embarrassment at my younger self?s condescending
> attitude toward the humanities?I now wish that I had strived for a proper
> liberal arts education. That I?d learned how to think critically about the
> world we live in and how to engage with it. That I?d absorbed lessons about
> how to identify and interrogate privilege, power structures, structural
> inequality, and injustice. That I?d had opportunities to debate my peers
> and develop informed opinions on philosophy and morality. And even more
> than all of that, I wish I?d even realized that these were worthwhile
> thoughts to fill my mind with?that all of my engineering work would be
> contextualized by such subjects.
>
> It worries me that so many of the builders of technology today are people
> like me; people haven?t spent anywhere near enough time thinking about
> these larger questions of what it is that we are building, and what the
> implications are for the world.
>
> But it is never too late to be curious. Each of us can choose to learn, to
> read, to talk to people, to travel, and to engage intellectually and
> ethically. I hope that we all do so?so that we can come to acknowledge the
> full complexity and wonder of the world we live in, and be thoughtful in
> designing the future of it.
> ?--------
>

?I think that in addition to being splendidly written, in some ways it is
the best thing I have seen since I joined.  It ought to be published
somewhere.  bill w?

> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 15:45:41 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:45:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <E6231A85-E9A8-487A-AD44-AAA3DA3F069A@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv07YKbUUqjsVAVgXR_vmrFTjFEKus_kMEhZW74sBsYs8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?
>> ?>> ?
>> Doesn't it bother you that the most powerful man in the world is an
>> idiot??
>
>
> ?> ?
> Doesn't it bother that there should be a most powerful person in the world?
>

?Certainly not!  People have power. There are a finite number of people in
the world. Therefore I logically conclude one of them must be the most
powerful or is in a tie for being the most powerful. And I think it would
be rather nice if that most powerful person wasn't a anti-intellectual
scientific nincompoop who is unable to tell the truth.

?> ?
> I believe Dave is against the US elite projecting force
>

?Fine, but I can find little evidence that
the US elite
?'s desire
to ?
project
?its ?
force
? is going away, and even less evidence that Donald Trump wants it to. ?


> ?> ?
> Aircraft carriers in particular are really just big floating offensive
> weapons used to keep imperial subjects in line.
>

?
Maybe so, but if you want to keep
? ?
imperial subjects in line big floating offensive weapons
seems?
 to be the way to do it.
?

 John K Clark?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 15:48:46 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:48:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <3fe427e1d0d9f16b70e7d3367ce92186.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <3fe427e1d0d9f16b70e7d3367ce92186.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYWFUcZeY-GBKtmEw1NaVqwxMz_5GVWywgjLvkuOSJ7Dw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
>
> It is preposterous to think that flipping burgers or waiting tables gives
> people purpose. I would instead warrant that the majority who work such
> menial jobs do so because they must and not necessarily because they want
> to.
>
> ?I strongly disagree.  I have worked as a waiter, ditchdigger, farm
> worker, soda jerk, roofer and more.  I took pride in everything I did.
>  "Look that that ditch.  Is it not a thing of beauty?"  Ok, so that's a bit
> much, but I think that the attitude that manual laborers are not enjoying
> their jobs is just mistaken, and the idea that they can't get some meaning
> out of it is patronizing.  You are saying that if manual labor is all a
> person is capable of, then they do not have and cannot have a meaningful
> life.  Just wrong.
>

?bill w?

> ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 16:07:17 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:07:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv07YKbUUqjsVAVgXR_vmrFTjFEKus_kMEhZW74sBsYs8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <FF886689-EBD7-45FF-9AD2-C8DA4B6FC2EF@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2017, at 8:45 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> ??>> ?Doesn't it bother you that the most powerful man in the world is an idiot??
>>  
>> ?> ?Doesn't it bother that there should be a most powerful person in the world?
> 
> ?Certainly not!  People have power. There are a finite number of people in the world. Therefore I logically conclude one of them must be the most powerful or is in a tie for being the most powerful.

Political power simply shouldn't exist. But fair enough. But do you think there should be anyone with such overwhelming power? This isn't like the president simply has a tiny bit more power than you or me. Instead, she or he can order the death of millions. Such power is dangerous... 

> And I think it would be rather nice if that most powerful person wasn't a anti-intellectual scientific nincompoop who is unable to tell the truth.

... and it's foolish to believe that such concentrated power existing in the first place will be unlikely to attract the wrong people -- whether the wrong people are themselves fools or, maybe worse, crafty sociopaths. 


>> ?> ?I believe Dave is against the US elite projecting force
> 
> ?Fine, but I can find little evidence that the US elite?'s desire to ?project ?its ?force? is going away, and even less evidence that Donald Trump wants it to. ?

The elite's desire will not likely go away, but can't each of us at least try to undermine the means?
 
> 
>> ?> ?Aircraft carriers in particular are really just big floating offensive weapons used to keep imperial subjects in line.
> 
> ?Maybe so, but if you want to keep? ?imperial subjects in line big floating offensive weapons seems? to be the way to do it.? 

Why would _you_ want imperial subjects kept in line? You want to live under a well-oiled authoritarian regime?

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 15:59:38 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 08:59:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fOuJ0mZu+BT=JqskrxarCmN8NEL2gk4vTGA5phQ_5iiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <020001d2f0f0$b6ee6620$24cb3260$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] brave new world in education

 

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:24 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

What if? we decided to teach humanities to the technogeeks, but instead of the usual curriculum taught by the usual suspects, we put the science, technology, engineering and math departments together and have them decide on a curriculum, completely open blank slate, have them choose from among their own STEM-oriented profs to teach it, decide on what to teach, what materials to use, everything, hand it over to that end of campus. 

 

>?Well, any attempt to broaden education would probably be worthwhile, but for the full effect I think it needs to be an immersive experience guided by experienced teachers. It's not just about reading literature, it's about writing papers, learning logic, learning to discuss/debate ideas, etc?

 

 

OK so how can we make a humanities course that would appeal to techno-geeks.  It shouldn?t be just something to endure, ja?

 

 

 

What would the course look like?

 

We can pretend we are those professors, so we get a say in what goes into that STEM-derived humanities course.  What would you suggest putting in there?

 

I would have Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  But you already knew I would have that one, ja?

 

Others?


>?Brave New World, Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451, To Kill a Mockingbird, ... I could go on.

 

>?-Dave

 

Ja, and we need to get art in there somewhere.  Engineers and scientists would likely find interesting the work of that Italian guy Mr. Angelo.  What was his name, Michael?  Carved a big nekkid guy out of marble.

 

While they are at it, I would sincerely like to have some really hipster artsy professor explain to me how the hell the artsy crowd figures stuff like this is worth millions of dollars:

 

https://www.wikiart.org/en/jackson-pollock

 

Deep down in our hearts, we know what this silliness is really all about: the frames have secret compartments stuffed with cocaine, that?s what.  Rich people trade dope while pretending to be high toned, seeing stuff in these paintings.  After the get a snootful of the contents of those frames, they probably do see meaning in the paintings.  So now you know.  Your old Uncle Spike has enlightened you on art.  You?re welcome.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 16:20:26 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 12:20:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh2Wm1TOD1dN8VBWf_HG2JaHLuXoT1QyjBofrOFggo6yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0XmusWpFqh+k8uPV+i35tggBbCpCh1nLx-EGz86UFycw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
?> ?
> And China now also has quantum radar that makes the F35 stealthtechnology
> useless


?And we know that must be true because the story was printed in lots and
lots of official Chinese government newspapers and websites (in both
English and Chinese); and it's a well known fact that whenever a country
makes a advance in stealth technology the first thing they do is contact
the world news media to tell them all about it.


> The US military budget is the biggest boondoggle in history.


?But Trump thinks that ?
boondoggle
? ?isn't big enough and wants to spend 50 billion more than Obama did in
his last
US military budget
?. And the Republican Congress thinks even that isn't big enough and wants
to spend 28 billion more for a even bigger
boondoggle
?,?
? and Trump seems ?willing to go along. As I said it would have been nice
if the most powerful man in the world was not a idiot.

 John K Clark
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 16:28:02 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:28:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Thoughts on the possibility of Islamic Transhumanism
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyffxrxsfdAtQiCyom7YfwVrhxgVP5SYC1u5RK_CL64wSw@mail.gmail.com>

Thoughts on the possibility of Islamic Transhumanism

Islam is all over the news, often bad news. But here I am setting
aside current affairs and wondering about the compatibility of
transhumanism and Islam, and possible parallels between transhumanist
ideas and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)...

https://turingchurch.net/thoughts-on-the-possibility-of-islamic-transhumanism-e64a4c5449c8


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 16:20:55 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 09:20:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbBcJO+LXhMTXqgQb5L6Fz1DES+RRDwQAZPbRxaAUe6L=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
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-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of SR Ballard
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 7:59 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] brave new world in education

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:06 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:54 AM, Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>... From Now 'til Tomorrow
>
>
>>... "Till" is a perfectly good word.
>
> -Dave

>..."Till" can also mean the money in a cash drawer or to turn over soil.
Using 'til makes the meaning immediately obvious.
_______________________________________________



Ja, but using "till" introduces a cool vague triple meaning.  Now we plow up
and scramble tomorrow, while making piles of money that go into the till.  I
like it.

spike



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 17:01:22 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 10:01:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0XmusWpFqh+k8uPV+i35tggBbCpCh1nLx-EGz86UFycw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <7828DC0F-359A-437C-9354-3265491B6229@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2017, at 9:20 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:05 AM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The US military budget is the biggest boondoggle in history.
> 
> ?But Trump thinks that ?boondoggle? ?isn't big enough and wants to spend 50 billion more than Obama did in his last US military budget?. And the Republican Congress thinks even that isn't big enough and wants to spend 28 billion more for a even bigger boondoggle?,?? and Trump seems ?willing to go along. As I said it would have been nice if the most powerful man in the world was not a idiot.

When was the last time the military budget actually went down? And calling for even bigger increases... Well, I believe that's been done often and long before Trump. The MIC is not something new in American politics. In fact, if Trump were to seriously challenge it*, my guess is even the GOP would abandon him.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

* Tepid or make believe challenges are fine -- just as long as those contracts keep getting inked.
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 17:45:48 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 13:45:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <FF886689-EBD7-45FF-9AD2-C8DA4B6FC2EF@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ecSsgWNHNyGaCVYW8bjg9FA5drn-UuXUP_VidQXN=5oQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Political power simply shouldn't exist. But fair enough. But do you think
> there should be anyone with such overwhelming power? This isn't like the
> president simply has a tiny bit more power than you or me. Instead, she or
> he can order the death of millions. Such power is dangerous...


Surprised John hasn't responded to this since he's so vehemently opposed to
wealth inequality. What is that but another form of power inequality?

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 17:54:47 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 13:54:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <FF886689-EBD7-45FF-9AD2-C8DA4B6FC2EF@gmail.com>
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On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Political power simply shouldn't exist.
>

?D
eath
? shouldn't exist either?
, but at the moment I'm more concerned with does or doesn't than should or
shouldn't.
? ?
That's why I got so frustrated in the debate before the election when
people
?kept ?
telling m
?e?
they were voting for the Libertarian or not voting at all because nobody
should have that much power; but it was always clear as a bell that
somebody *WILL* have
?that?
 much?
power and the only
?control?
 we had on November 8 was
?to decide ?
if that somebody was a imbecile or not. To my mind the correct choice was
obvious
? and it was to most American voters too, but unfortunately not to the
Electoral College, so despite not having a majority or even a plurality of
people behind him the imbecile became Presadent.    ?



> ?> ?
> But do you think there should be anyone with such overwhelming power?
>

?No of course not! But my opinion matters little, like it or not the fact
is somebody *DOES* have such ?
overwhelming power
? and that is very unlikely to change before the Singularity. And the thing
that terrifies me most is that a airhead like Trump has the power to make a
Singularity happen? in the very next hour, but not the sort of Singularity
we usually talk about on this list.

?> ?
> This isn't like the president simply has a tiny bit more power than you or
> me. Instead, she or he can order the death of millions. Such power is
> dangerous...
>

?Yes it most certainly is dangerous, and it's even ?more dangerous if the
man with that much power is so stupid he couldn't poor water out of a boot
if the instructions were printed on the heel.

?> ?
>  it's foolish to believe that such concentrated power existing in the
> first place will be unlikely to attract the wrong people
>

?
Yes
? but there is no bottom to wrong. There are insecure Email server type
wrong people and there are ?
Chicxulub
? extinction event type wrong people.? We ended up with
Chicxulub
?.

?> ?
> The elite's desire will not likely go away, but can't each of us at least
> try to undermine the means?
>

?No please don't try, not if you think increasing ?the defense budget by 78
billion dollars will decrease the elite's desire to project force.

?> ?
> Why would _you_ want imperial subjects kept in line? You want to live
> under a well-oiled authoritarian regime?


?
That wasn't the question I was addressing , it was "are aircraft carriers
technologically obsolete?". And my answer was no.

?> ?
> When was the last time the military budget actually went down?


?The answer is 2010 under Obama, the US ?
military budget
? has gone down every year since then. ?It was
20.
?1%?
of the federal budget
?or 4.6% of
gross domestic product
? ?i
n 2011
?, but only 15.9%
?
?
of the federal budget
?or 3.3% of
gross domestic product
? in 2015.

John K Clark






>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 18:05:50 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 14:05:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYWFUcZeY-GBKtmEw1NaVqwxMz_5GVWywgjLvkuOSJ7Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fe427e1d0d9f16b70e7d3367ce92186.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fOLVuTkBZ7h+F9OyjS5BYjj15t_QFuRfabAz_+QhLgsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:48 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> It is preposterous to think that flipping burgers or waiting tables gives
>> people purpose. I would instead warrant that the majority who work such
>> menial jobs do so because they must and not necessarily because they want
>> to.
>>
>
Bill wrote this part:

>
>> ?I strongly disagree.  I have worked as a waiter, ditchdigger, farm
>> worker, soda jerk, roofer and more.  I took pride in everything I did.
>>  "Look that that ditch.  Is it not a thing of beauty?"  Ok, so that's a bit
>> much, but I think that the attitude that manual laborers are not enjoying
>> their jobs is just mistaken, and the idea that they can't get some meaning
>> out of it is patronizing.  You are saying that if manual labor is all a
>> person is capable of, then they do not have and cannot have a meaningful
>> life.  Just wrong.
>>
>
Taking pride in your work is fine, everyone should do that. But that's not
on the same level as giving one purpose. I've worked menial jobs and taken
pride in my work, but it was always just a means to a paycheck. I never
thought to myself: "if I don't mow these lawns, who will? Will they as good
a job? What if they don't?"

Given the choice, I'd have found it more meaningful to be paid the same
rate to help out at some non-profit like an animal shelter or to check in
on elderly residents and help them out, if needed. Maybe when unemployment
is at 90+% we'll find a way to do something like that. Not a free UBI but
payment for services rendered to society.

-Dave
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jun 29 18:24:07 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:24:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <mailman.42.1498752451.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.42.1498752451.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b598fd5d8dca7bccb7de088fe6aca2ad.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Bill W wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> It is preposterous to think that flipping burgers or waiting tables
>> gives people purpose. I would instead warrant that the majority who work
>> such menial jobs do so because they must and not necessarily because
>> they want to.
>>
>> ?I strongly disagree.  I have worked as a waiter, ditchdigger, farm
>> worker, soda jerk, roofer and more.  I took pride in everything I did.
>> "Look that that ditch.  Is it not a thing of beauty?"  Ok, so that's a
>> bit much, but I think that the attitude that manual laborers are not
>> enjoying their jobs is just mistaken, and the idea that they can't get
>> some meaning out of it is patronizing.  You are saying that if manual
>> labor is all a person is capable of, then they do not have and cannot
>> have a meaningful life.  Just wrong.

I think you are misunderstanding me, Bill. I am not saying that a person
cannot find meaning in doing manual labor. And I am not saying a person
cannot take pride in a job well done. I am saying that there is nothing
inherent in a job, any job, that *gives* them that meaning except in so
far as they *choose* to find it there. If any of the jobs you listed were
truly the purpose of your life, you would still be doing that job.

Now to this hypothetical, and somewhat far-fetched, person you mention who
is incapable of anything other than manual labor. I never said he or she
does not have or cannot have  a meaningful life. He will just have to find
a purpose or meaning apart from getting paid for his manual labor.

He could, for example, live off of his subsistence check every month and
volunteer his manual labor to his community for free. He could dig ditches
and landscape his neighbor's backyard. He could become a weight lifter or
body builder. He could become a personal fitness trainer. In short, there
are many things he could do to live a meaningful life as long as he
chooses to find meaning in what he does.

My point is that the purpose and meaning of human life are not values that
can be externally assigned to someone by God, society, or the labor
market. They have to found from within by the individual in question. And
maybe asking yourself what you would spend your time doing, if all your
bills were taken care of, might be a good place to start.

Stuart LaForge







From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 18:20:00 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 11:20:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <022d01d2f0f3$b09b1b80$11d15280$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2fwR2vqT7hvbnan3n-+yL9pdSWDPTmR5219OgQ47xdvQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <02ae01d2f104$52aa9580$f7ffc080$@att.net>

>>... "Till" is a perfectly good word.
>
> -Dave

>>..."Till" can also mean the money in a cash drawer or to turn over soil.
Using 'til makes the meaning immediately obvious.
_______________________________________________



>...Ja, but using "till" introduces a cool vague triple meaning.  Now we
plow up and scramble tomorrow, while making piles of money that go into the
till.  I like it.

spike

_______________________________________________


Articles like this one give us hope that universities get it, or some do:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/decade-ahead-promises-great-change-higher-edu
cation-jeff-selingo?trk=eml-email_feed_ecosystem_digest_01-hero-0-null&midTo
ken=AQH_tlQ5s7wLiQ&fromEmail=fromEmail&ut=2Xvp2cVqof9TQ1

When we talk about coming changes in education, consider how much it has
already changed.

Consider some skill you might have learned in the long time agos.  Perhaps
some physic professor gave a lecture on using the del operator and the
vector cross product to calculate an EM field around a charged rod.  It
isn't something you use every day, so you don't recall how he did that magic
act, so how do you remind yourself?  Go dig through your dusty old textbook?
Library?  A bookstore if you can still find one?

None of these, you sit there where you are right now, Google, tikkity
tikkity tikkity BOOM, there it is, someone somewhere has written a good page
on that area of arcane knowledge but just like the old days in the library,
you may not ever get to your del cross product question because on the way
there, you saw something else cool and off you went in a different
direction, which is cool too.  Cost: zero.  You get the answers immediately,
or rather answers to something you want to know about, not necessarily what
you went looking for to start with.

The way we find out stuff has changed so much, the biggest surprise is that
the university system still bears so much resemblance to the way it was when
I was there, where they taught us knapped flint technologies and how to
evade the hungry T-rex, that sorta thing.

spike 



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 20:12:39 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 13:12:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2zeRVp_9GLD=AFJ3sRAiDxFXAXowdMi=p9a6pFu5Dq+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <951260F5-2AF6-4537-BD15-D4742CC7D74F@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:54 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?> ?Political power simply shouldn't exist.
> 
> ?Death? shouldn't exist either?, but at the moment I'm more concerned with does or doesn't than should or shouldn't.? ?That's why I got so frustrated in the debate before the election when people ?kept ?telling m?e? they were voting for the Libertarian or not voting at all because nobody should have that much power; but it was always clear as a bell that somebody WILL have ?that? much? power and the only ?control? we had on November 8 was ?to decide ?if that somebody was a imbecile or not.

We don't decide that -- not in any meaningful way.

> To my mind the correct choice was obvious? and it was to most American voters too, but unfortunately not to the Electoral College, so despite not having a majority or even a plurality of people behind him the imbecile became Presadent.

My point is, once more, if you have this kind of power in one office or small group, expect it to be abused. It's a mug's game to think that power can be so concentrated and somehow it will be unlikely for someone bad to grab hold of it. Constantly ignoring this problem too is like arguing who should captain the Titanic after the iceberg hit.

>> ?> ?But do you think there should be anyone with such overwhelming power?
> 
> ?No of course not! But my opinion matters little,

Well, if your opinion matters little, why bother sharing it here? 

> like it or not the fact is somebody DOES have such ?overwhelming power? and that is very unlikely to change before the Singularity. And the thing that terrifies me most is that a airhead like Trump has the power to make a Singularity happen? in the very next hour, but not the sort of Singularity we usually talk about on this list.

Again, this is a reason for a lie radical critique of power -- rather than just whining over Trump winning. Do you believe someone power-hungry like Clinton would be better? Why? She's craftier, knows when not to say whatever thought crosses her mind, and already has a fairly bloody track record. (Granted, Trump will likely surpass her there, but that's because he (or his henchmen) is (are) now the one ordering drone strikes -- not because she had any sympathy for the victims of empire.) 

>> ?> ?This isn't like the president simply has a tiny bit more power than you or me. Instead, she or he can order the death of millions. Such power is dangerous... 
> 
> ?Yes it most certainly is dangerous, and it's even ?more dangerous if the man with that much power is so stupid he couldn't poor water out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel.

Let's try an analogy. Yes, some dictators are worse than others. That, however, should never be an argument for dictatorship. Some masters treated their slaves worse than others too. I trust you wouldn't have argued for merely having better masters over abolishing slavery. Now apply the same logic here.

>> ?> ? it's foolish to believe that such concentrated power existing in the first place will be unlikely to attract the wrong people
> 
> ?Yes? but there is no bottom to wrong. There are insecure Email server type wrong people and there are ?Chicxulub? extinction event type wrong people.? We ended up with Chicxulub?.

Here we go again. There were reasons not to want Clinton in that you have ignored. When I talked to folks here in Seattle who didn't want her in, none of them mentioned her insecure email server. They feared her militarism, her love of police power, and her coziness with corporate elites. They also pointed to how fickle her view were. Save for abortion, she seems to reinvent herself -- and not in any way that seems like heartfelt changes, but rather political. She was against gay marriage, for instance, until suddenly gay marriage was found to not longer be unpopular. That's stuff to continue to ignore. It makes me think you're just a Clinton partisan.

>> ?> ?The elite's desire will not likely go away, but can't each of us at least try to undermine the means?
> 
> ?No please don't try, not if you think increasing ?the defense budget by 78 billion dollars will decrease the elite's desire to project force. 

Where have I said that? Reread what I wrote. Do I have to explain it to you? I want the military abolished. Is that clear?

And my guess is Dave doesn't want a big military budget either.

>> ?> ?Why would _you_ want imperial subjects kept in line? You want to live under a well-oiled authoritarian regime?
> 
> ?That wasn't the question I was addressing , it was "are aircraft carriers technologically obsolete?". And my answer was no.  

And Dave responded with why we don't need them anyhow. I responded to your cavalier dismissal of his point.

>> ?> ?When was the last time the military budget actually went down?
> 
> ?The answer is 2010 under Obama, the US ?military budget? has gone down every year since then. ?It was 20.?1%? of the federal budget ?or 4.6% of gross domestic product? ?in 2011?, but only 15.9% ??of the federal budget ?or 3.3% of gross domestic product? in 2015.

Actually, I would look at the numbers -- not % of the total budget or the % of GDP. If my rent goes up when my salary rises by a proportional amount, I don't consider it as remaining the same. Nor would I consider my rent increasing if my salary dropped.

However, that said, the numbers support you here. Defense spending went down under Obama for several years.  It by a huge amount -- and, no doubt, some of this was merely pulling more forces out of Iraq. Then the budget started to rise again and I bet it will continue to do so.

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 20:15:10 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 13:15:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ecSsgWNHNyGaCVYW8bjg9FA5drn-UuXUP_VidQXN=5oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <D3144364-6C6F-4015-9A21-09398F2C46D6@gmail.com>

On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:45 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Political power simply shouldn't exist. But fair enough. But do you think there should be anyone with such overwhelming power? This isn't like the president simply has a tiny bit more power than you or me. Instead, she or he can order the death of millions. Such power is dangerous... 
> 
> Surprised John hasn't responded to this since he's so vehemently opposed to wealth inequality. What is that but another form of power inequality?

You must have shamed him into responding because he did about nine minutes after you posted. ;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst


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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 19:12:01 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 12:12:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI article
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5voDjaK3+DkO=uxO6xHj2JxiWbqghZziQTrQtPdYB6ug@mail.gmail.com>

A while ago,

"bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline
and frugality gone?"

The more useful question here might be where did these traits come from?

Gregory Clark claims (and has the supporting data) that the traits you
mention were genetically selected.  By his estimate, the population
type changed (was selected) to those more attuned to Protestant memes.
The type change happened over a number of generations, but finally, a
meme set more attuned to typical people popped into existence.  It
spread rapidly.

I.e., if Clark is right, the human population traits of "hard work,
discipline, and frugality" were what made Protestant memes spread.

Keith

PS back to your implied question of how can we get them back, read
Clark. I don't think what happened in the past can be brought back nor
would we want that.  However, there may be other ways.


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 20:54:32 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 15:54:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] AI article
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5voDjaK3+DkO=uxO6xHj2JxiWbqghZziQTrQtPdYB6ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5voDjaK3+DkO=uxO6xHj2JxiWbqghZziQTrQtPdYB6ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNBh90BJOs0LJwbg_jJktd6ygCA-JY79X+HJ2ju-7+yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> A while ago,
>
> "bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline
> and frugality gone?"
>
> The more useful question here might be where did these traits come from?
>
> Gregory Clark claims (and has the supporting data) that the traits you
> mention were genetically selected.  By his estimate, the population
> type changed (was selected) to those more attuned to Protestant memes.
> The type change happened over a number of generations, but finally, a
> meme set more attuned to typical people popped into existence.  It
> spread rapidly.
>
> I.e., if Clark is right, the human population traits of "hard work,
> discipline, and frugality" were what made Protestant memes spread.
>
> Keith
>
> PS back to your implied question of how can we get them back, read
> Clark. I don't think what happened in the past can be brought back nor
> would we want that.  However, there may be other ways.
>

?I'd like to see the evidence that it has gone away.  Challenge every
assumption, I say.  Since the genes have not disappeared, all that is
needed is to figure out the environment needed to activate the set
producing the effect (perhaps inactivated by epigenetics in ancestors - and
perhaps not inactivated at all)

If this has to do with the tiny percentage of free loaders on welfare, then
we have another question.

  bill w?

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 29 21:06:58 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 16:06:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] brave new world in education
In-Reply-To: <020001d2f0f0$b6ee6620$24cb3260$@att.net>
References: <02fd01d2ef5a$60bd75d0$22386170$@att.net>
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 <CAH=2ypVd1N5eWu+R+a4n_BNB4E-N9Fv1XcG02Gttwmntr7dS=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fchaEsFAnoBJoqAu5btnhGpDZmZoBc2aNggxQc-qyZ4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <004c01d2f087$3accb0b0$b0661210$@att.net>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY4tvPsk8UaYm9B2PPhRfiBQS+QLKEw+hd1Bj+HhvRA4Q@mail.gmail.com>

spike wrote - OK so how can we make a humanities course that would appeal
to techno-geeks.  It shouldn?t be just something to endure, ja?

Back atcha - how do go about making algebra appealing to humanities fans?
You don't.  You teach what is needed and if they don't like it - tough.
 (Now I did try to put on a show when I taught, so don't accuse me of
reading dry notes like some do).

Play Mozart.  Show The African Queen.  Read Shakespeare's sonnets. And so
on.  The purpose is exposure to great art works.  At the very least they
will know what they don't like!

A friend of mine asserts that classical music has something for everyone,
and I agree.  I will make a hundred dollar bet that I can lead you to some
classical music you will like (tin ears excepted).

One point is that tv and radio and movies and what you can find on the web
is very limited, perhaps except for the web.  Nowadays it's all about
money, and 'art' gets left out at times.  College courses will teach some
things that you won't find 'out there'.

bill w

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:59 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dave Sill
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] brave new world in education
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 11:24 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> What if? we decided to teach humanities to the technogeeks, but instead of
> the usual curriculum taught by the usual suspects, we put the science,
> technology, engineering and math departments together and have them decide
> on a curriculum, completely open blank slate, have them choose from among
> their own STEM-oriented profs to teach it, decide on what to teach, what
> materials to use, everything, hand it over to that end of campus.
>
>
>
> >?Well, any attempt to broaden education would probably be worthwhile, but
> for the full effect I think it needs to be an immersive experience guided
> by experienced teachers. It's not just about reading literature, it's about
> writing papers, learning logic, learning to discuss/debate ideas, etc?
>
>
>
>
>
> OK so how can we make a humanities course that would appeal to
> techno-geeks.  It shouldn?t be just something to endure, ja?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What would the course look like?
>
>
>
> We can pretend we are those professors, so we get a say in what goes into
> that STEM-derived humanities course.  What would you suggest putting in
> there?
>
>
>
> I would have Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  But you already knew I would
> have that one, ja?
>
>
>
> Others?
>
>
> >?Brave New World, Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451, To Kill a Mockingbird, ...
> I could go on.
>
>
>
> >?-Dave
>
>
>
> Ja, and we need to get art in there somewhere.  Engineers and scientists
> would likely find interesting the work of that Italian guy Mr. Angelo.
> What was his name, Michael?  Carved a big nekkid guy out of marble.
>
>
>
> While they are at it, I would sincerely like to have some really hipster
> artsy professor explain to me how the hell the artsy crowd figures stuff
> like this is worth millions of dollars:
>
>
>
> https://www.wikiart.org/en/jackson-pollock
>
>
>
> Deep down in our hearts, we know what this silliness is really all about:
> the frames have secret compartments stuffed with cocaine, that?s what.
> Rich people trade dope while pretending to be high toned, seeing stuff in
> these paintings.  After the get a snootful of the contents of those frames,
> they probably do see meaning in the paintings.  So now you know.  Your old
> Uncle Spike has enlightened you on art.  You?re welcome.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 21:32:10 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 14:32:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <951260F5-2AF6-4537-BD15-D4742CC7D74F@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <951260F5-2AF6-4537-BD15-D4742CC7D74F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <036901d2f11f$2ade7d30$809b7790$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Subject: Re: [ExI] Trump on ?linear induction motors ?

 

On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:54 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com <mailto:johnkclark at gmail.com> > wrote:

 

>>?the imbecile became Presadent?John

 

>?My point is, once more, if you have this kind of power in one office or small group, expect it to be abused? Dan

 

 

 

A firsthand witness account of history might be helpful here.  

 

In the 1980s, Reagan wanted all this star wars stuff, and the military research community cheerfully obliged.  When Bush Senior took over in 1989 he issued orders to stop most of the research on ground-based ABM tech but keep on with the space based interceptor biz.  You may recall seeing video of smart pebbles, which were intercept vehicles dependent on body to body contact rather than on-board explosives.  Here?s an example of an early brilliant pebble.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E07p1qqkXls

 

They had these things working in about mid 1989 but these videos were not available to the public until much later.  I saw this one, or one a lot like it, in 1991.

 

In 1989, Bush Senior ordered most ground-based interceptor technology research halted, but the space-based research could go on, so it did.  With that research, they developed technology for interceptor vehicles which were supposed to stay on orbit.  Neither US nor the commies cared how many space-based interceptors the other guy had because they and we did the same math and came up with the same answer.  Even microscopic little Spike Jones did the math, and we all reached similar conclusions: space-based intercept wouldn?t take out enough nukes to make it worth doing.  So each told the other: go ahead.  Ground-based intercept would work eventually, but Bush Senior stopped that.

 

Mysterious?  Not really.  In 1989, we had a sane reasonable counterpart in the Kremlin: Gorbachev.  So Bush Senior negotiated with Gorby and they got a loooootta lotta agreements done before he left office at the end of 1991, which saved both nations tooooonnnns of money.

 

After Boris Yeltsin took over, there was a lot less pressure to eschew ground-based intercept.  So suddenly we had a pile of money to develop a missile capable of carrying a single brilliant pebble.  That missile today is known as THAAD.  There are other ground-based interceptors, the advanced-capability Patriot missiles and other systems, with a theoretical mission of stopping SCUD missiles and such.  Anyone who pays much attention to this sort of thing realizes that given enough of them, one could shield a city, or perhaps a small country the size of Iceland.  No, wait, Indonesia.  No, rather, Italy.  Ireland?  India?  OK I can?t recall which one I had in mind, but one of those really rich smaller countries with starts with the letter I.  You could use ground-based brilliant pebbles to protect the small, rich nation which starts with I.

 

Right at the end of Bush senior?s time in office, a bunch of the disarmament agreements he made with Gorby were put into effect, so we space guys were awash in all this military stuff we could buy for a nickel on the dollar if we could find a good use for it.  We couldn?t, so billions of dollars worth of military space stuff ended up in two enormous hangar-sized warehouses in a well-known Bay Area city.  True story.  I do mean enormous.  I don?t mean the size of those two big hangars out at Moffatt but big, located a short-enough drive from there that a prole could get stuff from salvage if she could write up a convincing justification for it.  It was a fun time to be alive for an aerospace junkie.

 

Soon after Bush?s successor took office, we could come out of the closet, for we space guys could all do the math and realize that even if space-based kinetic kill would never work, you could work out the control systems, adapt them after the fact and ground-based kinetic kill would work great.  So? we did.  Now? we have THAAD.  And Patriot.  And the others, built by those other aerospace companies whose names I forget.

 

Question: was the development of a THAAD payload under the disguise of a space-based interceptor equivalent to disregarding Bush Sr?s orders?  I would argue it depends on how you look at it.  I worked on it in good conscience.  I didn?t go blabbing around what I was doing, or that I had done the math and figured out how our brilliant pebbles would eventually be used, way back in the early 1990s.  Note that test on 31 May 2017.

 

Presidents come and go, but the military stays long-term.  If a president demands a ship be retrofitted with a steam catapult, you can be sure the military will do something, even if not exactly what he had in mind, such as create an EM cat which blows off steam during the launch.  Meanwhile the bad guys think the USNavy is investing its resources in retrofitting carriers with 1950s-era steam catapults.  Once that president is gone, the admirals order the removal of the steam bottles mounted underneath the deck, toss them overboard, life goes on.

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Jun 29 21:56:56 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 14:56:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AI article
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbNBh90BJOs0LJwbg_jJktd6ygCA-JY79X+HJ2ju-7+yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5voDjaK3+DkO=uxO6xHj2JxiWbqghZziQTrQtPdYB6ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNBh90BJOs0LJwbg_jJktd6ygCA-JY79X+HJ2ju-7+yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <038601d2f122$a0d76b20$e2864160$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
?

 

 

>>?"bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline
and frugality gone?"

 

?>?I'd like to see the evidence that it has gone away.  Challenge every assumption, I say.  Since the genes have not disappeared, all that is needed is to figure out the environment needed to activate the set producing the effect (perhaps inactivated by epigenetics in ancestors - and perhaps not inactivated at all)  bill w?

 

 

Genetics can account for only part of human behavior.  

 

Consider the great experiment of Berlin, latter half of the 20th century.  There we start out a with a group of people genetically similar, build a wall dividing them, teach your control group to work for the good of self, the other group to work for the good of all commie-kind.

 

Wait 50 yrs, tear down this wall, compare the productivity of the workers.  Pretty clear message there, ja?  Communism destroys motivation and personal accountability.  Capitalism leads to competition, and competition breeds excellence.

 

That wall come down and we saw what was on the other side of it.  I have been a hot-blooded capitalist ever since.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 00:18:10 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 20:18:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <951260F5-2AF6-4537-BD15-D4742CC7D74F@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1EngThReQ5ZBMpe9KvNVq1K1PtNsU+uX7mnApjkuZuKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:


> ?>> ?
>> it was always clear as a bell that somebody *WILL* have
>> ?that?
>>  much?
>> power and the only
>> ?control?
>>  we had on November 8 was
>> ?to decide ?
>> if that somebody was a imbecile or not.
>
>
> ?> ?
> We don't decide that -- not in any meaningful way.
>

?Some of us tried to, some of us didn't.?


?> ?
> It's a mug's game to think that power can be so concentrated and somehow
> it will be unlikely for someone bad to grab hold of it. Constantly ignoring
> this problem too is like arguing who should captain the Titanic after the
> iceberg hit.
>

?And that would have been a meaningful argument because a better captain
would have made sure the lifeboats were not half full when he launched
?them but would instead have overfilled them which could have been safely
done in such a glass smooth calm sea.

?There are bad situations and there are worse situations and there is a
difference between the two.?


> ?> ?
> Do you believe someone power-hungry like Clinton would be better?
>

?Of course she would have been better and so would you and so would
everybody on this list! But don't get too bigheaded over that complement,
being a better presadent than Trump is setting a very low bar.


> ?> ?
> Why?
>

?Because she's not ignorant, not jaw
droppingly?
?
?stupid, and because
she is not ?
Vladimir Putin
?'s puppet.
Oh and also because for her the truth was not a totally alien concept,
she'd actually been known to engage in truth telling on occasion, but Trump
is so accustomed to lying he will do it automatically even when the truth
would serve his interests better.

?>?
> Let's try an analogy. Yes, some dictators are worse than others. That,
> however, should never be an argument for dictatorship.
>

?But it obviously is a argument that some dictators are worse than others!
So if you live in a dictatorship but had the opportunity to decide between
a bad dictator and a worse one the decision is obvious, or at least it
should be. I agree it's not the ideal solution but the perfect shouldn't be
the enemy of the better because you're never going to live in a perfect
world. Perfect is out of reach, you're just going to have to settle for
better.


> ?> ?
> Some masters treated their slaves worse than others too. I trust you
> wouldn't have argued for merely having better masters over abolishing
> slavery.
>

?But I would argue that because ?some
 masters treated their slaves worse than others
?some slaves were less miserable than others, and I would prefer to be one
of the less miserable ones.?

?> ?
> There were reasons not to want Clinton in that you have ignored. When I
> talked to folks here in Seattle who didn't want her in,
>

?They ?must have been hard to find in
Seattle
?, that's Clinton country,?

?> ?
> none of them mentioned her insecure email server.
>

?That certainly wasn't the case on this list.?

?It all seems comically trivial now. ?


> ?> ?
> They feared her militarism, her love of police power, and her coziness
> with corporate elites.
>

?And the fools ?
actually thought Trump would score better on that ?! Or maybe they thought
they made some sort of grand historical gesture by voting for the
Libertarian guy who's name now escapes me as it has to nearly everyone in
the country. Oh well
I guess you can find fruitcakes everywhere even
?in ?
Seattle
?.?
?

?
>> ?> >?
>> No please don't try, not if you think increasing ?the defense budget by
>> 78 billion dollars will decrease the elite's desire to project force.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Where have I said that? Reread what I wrote. Do I have to explain it to
> you? I want the military abolished. Is that clear?
>

?No that is not clear, if It were I'd understand why you didn't seem to
care that somebody who felt almost the exact opposite of everything you
believe in would be the most powerful person in the world because the
alternative was not perfect. Perhaps you're too perfect for this world but
I am not.?


?>?
>  the numbers support you here. Defense spending went down under Obama for
> several years.  It by a huge amount -- and, no doubt, some of this was
> merely pulling more forces out of Iraq.
>

?Merely? In our everyday macro-world  ?(lets not involve quantum mechanics
in the discussion right now) things always happen for a reason, and what
happened is the US military budget went down. Don't expect that to happen
under Trump.

?John K Clark?




>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 01:37:52 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:37:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <036901d2f11f$2ade7d30$809b7790$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <BBCEB7A4-6B1E-4DE0-A68A-3AD031488571@gmail.com>

> On Thursday, June 29, 2017 2:48 PM spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Presidents come and go, but the military stays long-term.  If a
> president demands a ship be retrofitted with a steam catapult,
> you can be sure the military will do something, even if not
> exactly what he had in mind, such as create an EM cat which
> blows off steam during the launch.  Meanwhile the bad guys
> think the USNavy is investing its resources in retrofitting
> carriers with 1950s-era steam catapults.  Once that president
> is gone, the admirals order the removal of the steam bottles
> mounted underneath the deck, toss them overboard, life goes on.

This actually fits into my earlier point about a radical critique of power* rather than focusing purely or mainly on who sits behind the desk. Much of government -- in other words, much of the abusive system of power -- steams on regardless of who's at the helm. Here, in my mind, people who merely want to put a different person behind the desk are not going to fundamentally change things. At best, we'll just see saw back and forth between bad and worse. And given the chance of a turnkey authoritarian state, that's a much bigger risk now. (Still, I'm optimistic. The Soviet empire really did fall. Our nightmares might be different today, but we can always decide to wake up.)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst

* Which is to say to abolish it as much as possible in society -- not to merely argue over who would marginally less appalling decisions as supreme leader.
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 01:44:12 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2017 18:44:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
 =?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1EngThReQ5ZBMpe9KvNVq1K1PtNsU+uX7mnApjkuZuKg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <F945E8D0-EE71-4B2A-9E43-16FC58A7FD52@gmail.com>

On Thursday, June 29, 2017 5:20 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
?>>> ?it was always clear as a bell that somebody WILL have ?that? much? power
>>> and the only ?control? we had on November 8 was ?to decide ?if that
>>> somebody was a imbecile or not. >>
> ?> ?We don't decide that -- not in any meaningful way.

> ?Some of us tried to, some of us didn't.?


You tried to keep the system in place by participating in a rigged game that you as a voter have zero impact over. In fact, unless you lived in a district where it came down to a handful of votes deciding, you had little chance of having any impact on the outcome.

Now, sure, your shrill antics here and elsewhere might've influenced other voters, though I doubt it. Your vituperative tone might just as well as shifted things the other way: more people either not voting or not voting the way you wanted.


> ?> ?It's a mug's game to think that power can be so concentrated
>> and somehow it will be unlikely for someone bad to grab hold
>> of it. Constantly ignoring this problem too is like arguing
>> who should captain the Titanic after the iceberg hit.>

?> And that would have been a meaningful argument because a better
> captain would have made sure the lifeboats were not half full
> when he launched ?them but would instead have overfilled them
> which could have been safely done in such a glass smooth calm
> sea. ?There are bad situations and there are worse situations
> and there is a difference between the two.?

It's ridiculous to believe Clinton would've cared about the lifeboats in this case. Her political career seems to show she's none too worried about the "little people."

> ?> ?Do you believe someone power-hungry like Clinton would be
>> better?>

> ?Of course she would have been better and so would you and
> so would everybody on this list! But don't get too bigheaded
> over that complement, being a better presadent than Trump
> is setting a very low bar.

Better at what? I think most people on this list have a better moral compass than Clinton or Trump, but in terms of Clinton having a better moral compass than Trump, nope. What she was and is better at is not saying all the wrong things in public. (And she's not even great at that. She comes off as rehearsed -- as someone who definitely isn't saying what's she's thinking. Most other politicians at her level -- Obama, either Bush, her husband, etc. don't come off that way.)

> ?> ?Why?

?> Because she's not ignorant, not jaw droppingly? ??stupid, and
> because she is not ?Vladimir Putin?'s puppet. Oh and also
> because for her the truth was not a totally alien concept,
> she'd actually been known to engage in truth telling on
> occasion, but Trump is so accustomed to lying he will do it
> automatically even when the truth would serve his interests
> better.


Again, not signs of moral superiority here or even that she would be less dangerous. Some make the case that an intelligent sociopath is far far worse than an unintelligent narcissist.

But this is rephrasing the part of my post who edited out in a sort of Stalinist fashion:

"Again, this is a reason for a [typo removed] radical critique of power -- rather than just whining over Trump winning. Do you believe someone power-hungry like Clinton would be better? Why? She's craftier, knows when not to say whatever thought crosses her mind, and already has a fairly bloody track record. (Granted, Trump will likely surpass her there, but that's because he (or his henchmen) is (are) now the one ordering drone strikes -- not because she had any sympathy for the victims of empire.)"


> ?> ?Let's try an analogy. Yes, some dictators are worse than
>> others. That, however, should never be an argument for
>> dictatorship. >

?> But it obviously is a argument that some dictators are
> worse than others! So if you live in a dictatorship but had
> the opportunity to decide between a bad dictator and a
> worse one the decision is obvious, or at least it should be.
> I agree it's not the ideal solution but the perfect shouldn't
> be the enemy of the better because you're never going to live
> in a perfect world. Perfect is out of reach, you're just
> going to have to settle for better.

Choosing dictators is also out of reach. You're letting a fantasy of your electoral power, which is near zero, dominate the discussion. If you want to reduce governmental power -- to prevent ever worse people from getting control of it -- then the axis of discussion has to go beyond the Frick and Frack choices here.

> ?> ?Some masters treated their slaves worse than others too. I
>> trust you wouldn't have argued for merely having better
>> masters over abolishing slavery.>

> ?But I would argue that because ?some masters treated their
> slaves worse than others ?some slaves were less miserable
> than others, and I would prefer to be one of the less
> miserable ones.?

But you wouldn't have argued for abolishing slavery because you don't want to make "the perfect the enemy of the good"?


> ?> ?There were reasons not to want Clinton in that you have
>> ignored. When I talked to folks here in Seattle who didn't want her in,>

> ?They ?must have been hard to find in Seattle?, that's Clinton country,?

Actually, Sanders and Stein country in my neighborhood. Though, happily, there are many anarchists here too.

> ?> ?none of them mentioned her insecure email server.

> ?That certainly wasn't the case on this list.? ?It all seems comically trivial now. ?

You kept mentioning it. I mentioned several times here that the email server was not a big issue among these folks. The big issue was her bloody track record. The trail of bodies across the globe kind of matters more to some than email servers.


> ?> ?They feared her militarism, her love of police power, and her
>> coziness with corporate elites.>

> ?And the fools ?actually thought Trump would score better on that ?!

No, but they didn't ignore that. You did. You kept talking about the email server here. You minimized all problems Clinton had here. I don't recall you ever posing her as a "real scumbag with bloody hands, but not as bad as Trump." Instead, you seemed like a Clinton partisan: she did little objectionable by your lights. Folks I talked to here didn't want Trump in either.

(There were Trump supporters I talked to too, though they were mostly alt-right assholes.)


> Or maybe they thought they made some sort of grand historical
> gesture by voting for the Libertarian guy who's name now escapes
> me as it has to nearly everyone in the country. Oh well I guess
> you can find fruitcakes everywhere even ?in ?Seattle?.? ?

It's good to see you're dismissive of people you disagree with. Don't bother even trying to figure them out. Just continue scolding everyone you disagree with. That'll change their minds. And that'll give you insights into why they do what they do.


> ??>> ?No please don't try, not if you think increasing ?the defense
>>> budget by 78 billion dollars will decrease the elite's desire to project force. >>

> ?> ?Where have I said that? Reread what I wrote. Do I have to explain
>> it to you? I want the military abolished. Is that clear?>

?> No that is not clear, if It were I'd understand why you didn't seem
> to care that somebody who felt almost the exact opposite of
> everything you believe in would be the most powerful person in the
> world because the alternative was not perfect. Perhaps you're too
> perfect for this world but I am not.?

You live in a fantasy land where such power can exist and rarely be harnessed for the wrong purposes.


> ?>? the numbers support you here. Defense spending went down under
>> Obama for several years.  It by a huge amount -- and, no doubt,
>> some of this was merely pulling more forces out of Iraq.>

> ?Merely? In our everyday macro-world  ?(lets not involve quantum
> mechanics in the discussion right now) things always happen for
> a reason, and what happened is the US military budget went down.

My point: It might have been special draw down from ending an expensive occupation -- not a long term cut that'll stick. I could be wrong here. 


> Don't expect that to happen under Trump.

Not if the Democrats were to take the House and Senate. Then he might have to go along with whatever budget imperatives they have. I'm surprised it happened under Obama. (I recall a few years ago looking at the 1990s and not seeing any cuts then. But I wouldn't be too quick to praise Obama here. To me, two semi-good things he did were somewhat open up relations with Cuba and also with Iran -- making wars less likely in the latter case. And please don't tell me. I know Trump has tried to undermine both of these. Please don't be so fucking idiotic to think I'm unaware of that you sad little prick.;)

Regards,

Dan
  Sample my Kindle books via:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 11:49:48 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 07:49:48 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>

In February of 2016 I was contacted off list by a long-time member of this
list who was asking for financial help. I ignored that request because I
didn't know this person outside the list. In November, I got another
request. I was still reluctant, but I thought of a small task that I needed
that this person should have been able to help with, so I made a $200
donation hoping it'd be something more than a gift.

I got no response whatsoever. No thanks, no thanks-but-no-thanks: nothing.

I sent a ping this February and got a real-soon-now response.

I doubt I'm the only person on the list who received the plea for help and
it may be too late to stop others from falling for it, but I thought I
should say something.

-Dave
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 12:54:28 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:54:28 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 June 2017 at 12:49, Dave Sill wrote:
> In February of 2016 I was contacted off list by a long-time member of this
> list who was asking for financial help. I ignored that request because I
> didn't know this person outside the list. In November, I got another
> request. I was still reluctant, but I thought of a small task that I needed
> that this person should have been able to help with, so I made a $200
> donation hoping it'd be something more than a gift.
>
> I got no response whatsoever. No thanks, no thanks-but-no-thanks: nothing.
>
> I sent a ping this February and got a real-soon-now response.
>
> I doubt I'm the only person on the list who received the plea for help and
> it may be too late to stop others from falling for it, but I thought I
> should say something.
>

Let the list moderators know the name of the person involved.
I've had no similar requests.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 13:37:53 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 08:37:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] AI article
In-Reply-To: <038601d2f122$a0d76b20$e2864160$@att.net>
References: <CAPiwVB5voDjaK3+DkO=uxO6xHj2JxiWbqghZziQTrQtPdYB6ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbNBh90BJOs0LJwbg_jJktd6ygCA-JY79X+HJ2ju-7+yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <038601d2f122$a0d76b20$e2864160$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEay8k_UsgN=fGZY5WE0_G3eqbXshkTj1-hxK49Q8OSzMw@mail.gmail.com>

spike - Genetics can account for only part of human behavior.

 ----


In Sapolsky's book Behave, he makes the point over and over:  it makes no
sense to say that anything short of our physical structure is mostly
controlled by genes.  It's always interaction, and often the environment
changes what the genes do (epigenetics).  He says that it is wrong to say
things like 'genes cause this'.  'Influence' is the word he uses.  (this is
a very great book, taking you from millions of years ago to the future, and
from tiny genetic details to social psych - I was so impressed that I
bought all of his other books - he is laugh out loud funny)


Here are two of his TED talks:
https://www.ted.com/talks?sort=newest&q=sapolsky


The German example shows clearly that the political environment is crucial
to production.  Why don't any of the communist countries see that it just
doesn't work?  Venezuela the latest example.


bill w

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 4:56 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *?*
>
>
>
>
>
> >>?"bill k - Where's the Protestant work ethic of hard work, discipline
> and frugality gone?"
>
>
>
> ?>?I'd like to see the evidence that it has gone away.  Challenge every
> assumption, I say.  Since the genes have not disappeared, all that is
> needed is to figure out the environment needed to activate the set
> producing the effect (perhaps inactivated by epigenetics in ancestors - and
> perhaps not inactivated at all)  bill w?
>
>
>
>
>
> Genetics can account for only part of human behavior.
>
>
>
> Consider the great experiment of Berlin, latter half of the 20th
> century.  There we start out a with a group of people genetically similar,
> build a wall dividing them, teach your control group to work for the good
> of self, the other group to work for the good of all commie-kind.
>
>
>
> Wait 50 yrs, tear down this wall, compare the productivity of the
> workers.  Pretty clear message there, ja?  Communism destroys motivation
> and personal accountability.  Capitalism leads to competition, and
> competition breeds excellence.
>
>
>
> That wall come down and we saw what was on the other side of it.  I have
> been a hot-blooded capitalist ever since.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 30 14:50:19 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 07:50:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d2f1b0$328571b0$97905510$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 4:50 AM
To: Extropy chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Heads up

 

In February of 2016 I was contacted off list by a long-time member of this list who was asking for financial help. I ignored that request because I didn't know this person outside the list. In November, I got another request. I was still reluctant, but I thought of a small task that I needed that this person should have been able to help with, so I made a $200 donation hoping it'd be something more than a gift.

 

I got no response whatsoever. No thanks, no thanks-but-no-thanks: nothing.

 

I sent a ping this February and got a real-soon-now response.

 

I doubt I'm the only person on the list who received the plea for help and it may be too late to stop others from falling for it, but I thought I should say something.

 

-Dave

 

 

 

 

Hi Dave, I didn?t get that request.  Suggest having the person call you on Skype.  It wouldn?t take long for to discover if anyone posing as a longtime member was bogus.  But I would be suspicious right up front.  Anyone who has been with ExI long knows that if one were to pass the hat around a bunch of raging capitalists, she is lucky to get her hat back.  {8^D

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 30 14:55:52 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 07:55:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
Of BillK

>>...doubt I'm the only person on the list who received the plea for help 
> and it may be too late to stop others from falling for it, but I 
> thought I should say something.
>

>...Let the list moderators know the name of the person involved.
I've had no similar requests.

>...BillK
_______________________________________________


Ja good idea.  The person who supposedly sent the request may not know of
the scam.

About 20 yrs ago, someone was posting stuff to the ExI list posing as me.
We all took it in good fun.  Apparently the poster was female, or claimed
she was.  It started a big discussion on how to verify identities online.
There was no harm done in those more playful, experimental times.  I started
writing stuff posing as her posing as me.  We had a big ExI party at my
house and I had a bunch of the regulars post stuff from my account posing as
me, writing stuff they thought I would write.  It was a hoot.

spike



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 15:26:55 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 10:26:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The Real Threat of Artificial Intelligence
In-Reply-To: <b598fd5d8dca7bccb7de088fe6aca2ad.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.42.1498752451.25904.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <b598fd5d8dca7bccb7de088fe6aca2ad.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEagMypOe268ygr6qY+aDsAsKVd_YawPKskz9eiuP=n40g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 1:24 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Bill W wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 12:48 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> It is preposterous to think that flipping burgers or waiting tables
> >> gives people purpose. I would instead warrant that the majority who work
> >> such menial jobs do so because they must and not necessarily because
> >> they want to.
> >>
> >> ?I strongly disagree.  I have worked as a waiter, ditchdigger, farm
> >> worker, soda jerk, roofer and more.  I took pride in everything I did.
> >> "Look that that ditch.  Is it not a thing of beauty?"  Ok, so that's a
> >> bit much, but I think that the attitude that manual laborers are not
> >> enjoying their jobs is just mistaken, and the idea that they can't get
> >> some meaning out of it is patronizing.  You are saying that if manual
> >> labor is all a person is capable of, then they do not have and cannot
> >> have a meaningful life.  Just wrong.
>
> I think you are misunderstanding me, Bill. I am not saying that a person
> cannot find meaning in doing manual labor. And I am not saying a person
> cannot take pride in a job well done. I am saying that there is nothing
> inherent in a job, any job, that *gives* them that meaning except in so
> far as they *choose* to find it there. If any of the jobs you listed were
> truly the purpose of your life, you would still be doing that job.
>
> Now to this hypothetical, and somewhat far-fetched, person you mention who
> is incapable of anything other than manual labor. I never said he or she
> does not have or cannot have  a meaningful life. He will just have to find
> a purpose or meaning apart from getting paid for his manual labor.
>
> He could, for example, live off of his subsistence check every month and
> volunteer his manual labor to his community for free. He could dig ditches
> and landscape his neighbor's backyard. He could become a weight lifter or
> body builder. He could become a personal fitness trainer. In short, there
> are many things he could do to live a meaningful life as long as he
> chooses to find meaning in what he does.
>
> My point is that the purpose and meaning of human life are not values that
> can be externally assigned to someone by God, society, or the labor
> market. They have to found from within by the individual in question. And
> maybe asking yourself what you would spend your time doing, if all your
> bills were taken care of, might be a good place to start.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> ?Stuart, I would have thought that the idea that we each have to make our
> own way regarding purpose in life would go without saying, but of course
> it's correct.  I do think that finding 'our purpose' is incorrect in that
> we could have numerous purposes and meanings because we are in a group
> whose members probably are all over 120 IQ, have more than one thing we can
> do very well, and so I think that we know that we can do things most people
> can't, can understand things most can't, can love things most can't, and so
> on.
>

?So who is to say that one has to have only one purpose in life?  Or even
has to have a purpose?  I have not taught psych in a long time now, but
still read a lot of books on it - with no purpose outside my head.
Intrinsically satisfying.

Along the way I have wanted to become a good photographer, piano player,
gardener, and a few more, and I can say that all gave me pleasure without
having to stand the load of being a 'purpose'.  All of it is meaningful to
me?.

When I left law school after one semester (Whew!!  Thank you, self) I had
to choose among the three majors I had.  I chose well I think, though I
could have done the other two pretty well also.

Nah, I would not be doing any of those early jobs I had.  Some I had to do,
for the money, some I liked but saw that my abilities lay far beyond
those.  But if I had failed at anything I maybe would have had to do some
of them.  It was apparent before first grade that I was destined for a life
of the mind.

bill w

> ?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 15:44:14 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:44:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
> Ja good idea.  The person who supposedly sent the request may not know of
> the scam.
>

My email exchange and the Paypal payment ($150, not $200) were to the
address this person used on this list.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Jun 30 16:12:30 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 09:12:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009d01d2f1bb$aef47380$0cdd5a80$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 8:44 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Heads up

 

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:55 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:


Ja good idea.  The person who supposedly sent the request may not know of
the scam.

 

My email exchange and the Paypal payment ($150, not $200) were to the address this person used on this list.

 

-Dave 

 

 

 

Ja, but that doesn?t really tell you all that much.  Back when the online identity business was going on, Robert Bradbury knew my email logon and password.  I had him use it.  I think I gave that to several people I trusted, Anders, Greg Burch, mighta been others.  With Robert, he was a good-hearted generous guy, but those who knew him realize why giving him your email logon might be risky: the man did say what he was thinking with no internal censors.  It isn?t clear in his case if his internal censor was broken or if he intentionally destroyed it, but it didn?t work.

 

I maintain a different email @ which I use for anything I want kept private.  I don?t think I have ever mentioned it here.

 

So the person in distress could have somehow gotten the login creds, rigged it to where she gets the email first, deletes anything about sending money, unsuspecting victim doesn?t even know she is hitting up his online friends and acquaintances for money.

 

The one and only time I have ever had an ExI person in actual need, he called me on the phone.

 

If I see anyone posting email needing help, I would durn near assume it was bogus.  Otherwise, they would post with a phone number so you could talk realtime, see if they know things any ExI oldtimer would know, such as I might say ?Hey I heard from Hal Finney the other day??  And she would say ?Indeed sir?  You went to a spirit medium?  Or did you use a Ouija board??

 

This is a good question however, more than just fun and games.  We have all that stuff in the archives, and we know there are some accidental misattributions, and some intentional ones.  It would be a fun exercise for a strong AI to figure out which ones ar misattributed.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 16:37:22 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 17:37:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgju87R8JK12PwXgxTPFYZB2+6WeR45==BOrA=mpF2uoQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 June 2017 at 16:44, Dave Sill  wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 10:55 AM, spike wrote:
>>
>> Ja good idea.  The person who supposedly sent the request may not know of
>> the scam.
>
> My email exchange and the Paypal payment ($150, not $200) were to the
> address this person used on this list.
>


That's irrelevant. Of course it was, otherwise you wouldn't have sent money.

If you suspect a list member is trying to operate a scam on other list
members then you should send all the details (including IP address) to
the moderators for them to deal with the situation. Otherwise you are
just casting suspicion on every list member to no useful end.

BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 16:49:05 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:49:05 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgju87R8JK12PwXgxTPFYZB2+6WeR45==BOrA=mpF2uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgju87R8JK12PwXgxTPFYZB2+6WeR45==BOrA=mpF2uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2epwst5mRsBi372sLmrRMkzwanyHAC2-Q3OJ+Gw-DKSqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 12:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you suspect a list member is trying to operate a scam on other list
> members then you should send all the details (including IP address) to
> the moderators for them to deal with the situation. Otherwise you are
> just casting suspicion on every list member to no useful end.
>

I'm not going to post details. If someone has similar contact from a list
member they can contact me or Spike in private.

I'm also not saying this was a scam, just that I felt shortchanged by not
even getting thanked.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 17:04:42 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 12:04:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] sumo wrestling robots
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJFsZMxVrCNVWJBjawzPdbJ4Mm5FpwvO1M__8ebuqL5Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCqxOzKNFks

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 17:10:39 2017
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 18:10:39 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2epwst5mRsBi372sLmrRMkzwanyHAC2-Q3OJ+Gw-DKSqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgju87R8JK12PwXgxTPFYZB2+6WeR45==BOrA=mpF2uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2epwst5mRsBi372sLmrRMkzwanyHAC2-Q3OJ+Gw-DKSqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiqZdfEs6QOV2cyNkN2BXv=tHkWmGukDahKNjquP70jAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 June 2017 at 17:49, Dave Sill  wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 12:37 PM, BillK  wrote:
>>
>> If you suspect a list member is trying to operate a scam on other list
>> members then you should send all the details (including IP address) to
>> the moderators for them to deal with the situation. Otherwise you are
>> just casting suspicion on every list member to no useful end.
>
>
> I'm not going to post details. If someone has similar contact from a list
> member they can contact me or Spike in private.
> I'm also not saying this was a scam, just that I felt shortchanged by not
> even getting thanked.
>

Nobody is asking you to post details.
Spike and the other moderators will deal with the situation in
confidence. They are responsible for maintaining responsible behaviour
on the list.

If you are just having a personal whinge, then the list is not the
place to accuse an anonymous list member of misbehaviour and put
everyone under suspicion.

BillK


From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 17:17:50 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:17:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] sumo wrestling robots
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYJFsZMxVrCNVWJBjawzPdbJ4Mm5FpwvO1M__8ebuqL5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYJFsZMxVrCNVWJBjawzPdbJ4Mm5FpwvO1M__8ebuqL5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fkTASEmP_BcLJPWYCxgzHy8oke+H3D4+CtwkSGZA3csA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:04 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCqxOzKNFks
>

 That was surprisingly entertaining.

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 17:20:22 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:20:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Heads up
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiqZdfEs6QOV2cyNkN2BXv=tHkWmGukDahKNjquP70jAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM5aL2cW=iN_pc2v+pVkou4NHW+qc1evhP2p8k2hhkStkTr1Mw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armhKusXjW0ysKu4+gW9z5anpoKCD-_68z77TWQhiiYEuyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004d01d2f1b0$f9877d30$ec967790$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2c0_vR_ZvWDCCtwb2P1O0ocMYLbtW2Rbc63--Tw_HBG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armgju87R8JK12PwXgxTPFYZB2+6WeR45==BOrA=mpF2uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2epwst5mRsBi372sLmrRMkzwanyHAC2-Q3OJ+Gw-DKSqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL_armiqZdfEs6QOV2cyNkN2BXv=tHkWmGukDahKNjquP70jAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2c8Y3z7nMfb4K0Q=VhVJ63fF2nuUKVQBiYnsBxZXNuhEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:10 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Nobody is asking you to post details.
>

Sorry, I misread that.

Spike and the other moderators will deal with the situation in
> confidence. They are responsible for maintaining responsible behaviour
> on the list.
>

I've given Spike the details.

If you are just having a personal whinge, then the list is not the
> place to accuse an anonymous list member of misbehaviour and put
> everyone under suspicion.


My goal, as I said, was to warn others.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Jun 30 17:27:14 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:27:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump_on_=E2=80=8Blinear_induction_motors_?=
	=?utf-8?b?4oCL?=
In-Reply-To: <F945E8D0-EE71-4B2A-9E43-16FC58A7FD52@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0J4+2X=8ZDHi1VH25S4rS3f53bGmVMVNBx=D3jsxuy2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cX6dxhmQN0XbdD5uk0PcfVVUdCXCCcgj8X6bpOKmDF=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2b3LEM4XE+WBUqCBkN165Q9sfxWxGrpWvKbJmg3zH7jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <E6231A85-E9A8-487A-AD44-AAA3DA3F069A@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv07YKbUUqjsVAVgXR_vmrFTjFEKus_kMEhZW74sBsYs8Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv12JiyRyFDFa+=fxyV3e8XdfAEiACwOWQEgbTr=V2P=zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:44 PM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

?
>> ?>> ?
>> Merely? In our everyday macro-world  (lets not involve quantum
>> ??
>> mechanics in the discussion right now) things always happen for
>> ? ?
>> a reason, and what happened is the US military budget went down.Don't
>> expect that to happen under Trump.
>>
>

?> ?
> My point: It might have been special draw down from ending an expensive
> occupation

-- not a long term cut that'll stick. I could be wrong here.


Carter,
? ?
a democrat
??,
reduced
? ?
military spending.
Reagan
? ?
and Bush#1, republicans, raised military spending.
Carter,
? ?
a democrat.
? ?
reduced
? ?
military spending.
Bush#2,  a republican,
? ?
raised military spending.
Obama, a democrat
?, ?
?
reduced
? ?
military spending.

And now we have
?Donald Fucking ?
Trump, a republican. Draw your
own conclusions about what you think he will do
?.?

?> ?
> But this is rephrasing the part of my post who edited out in a sort of
> Stalinist fashion:


?Oh for christ sake!

 John K Clark?
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