From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  1 17:15:03 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 13:15:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Will Trump visit the DMZ?
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0qUZc2ZdgvYgsCBfeiUb9TS9FHupkKOyZs2A+jMTurnA@mail.gmail.com>

When an
? ?
anonymous White House official was asked if Trump will visit the DMZ in his
Korean visit next week
? ?
he said no, when Trump himself was asked the same
?question?
 he said  "I?d rather not say, but you?ll be
? ?
surprised". I hope Trump is right because I would not be surprised if he did
? visit it?
and moon North Korea or something equally outrageous
? ?
to distract the world from his most recent scandal,
? ?
and
?in response ?
I would not be surprised if Kim Jong-un
? ?
decided that would be the perfect time to test a
?n?
H-bomb, this time in the atmosphere. I really really hope I'm surprised.
?

 John K Clark?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov  1 23:49:34 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 16:49:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Will Trump visit the DMZ?
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0qUZc2ZdgvYgsCBfeiUb9TS9FHupkKOyZs2A+jMTurnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0qUZc2ZdgvYgsCBfeiUb9TS9FHupkKOyZs2A+jMTurnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSBv3uJwtx430=ZX6ue=U=vB6-feLd4vdu8g+g3vEmskA@mail.gmail.com>

If he visits the DMZ, NK may declare it a free fire zone, as they have
at times before.

I'd rather he get impeached than shot, though.

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 10:15 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> When an
> anonymous White House official was asked if Trump will visit the DMZ in his
> Korean visit next week
> he said no, when Trump himself was asked the same
> question
>  he said  "I?d rather not say, but you?ll be
> surprised". I hope Trump is right because I would not be surprised if he did
> visit it
> and moon North Korea or something equally outrageous
> to distract the world from his most recent scandal,
> and
> in response
> I would not be surprised if Kim Jong-un
> decided that would be the perfect time to test a
> n
> H-bomb, this time in the atmosphere. I really really hope I'm surprised.
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Nov  4 05:47:41 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:47:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dark energy = (anti)gravity?
Message-ID: <e67b2de81318553b083a060d60259111.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>> Thermodynamics says that entropy is a function of state. That means it
>> is path independent so it doesn't matter how the universe got into its
>> initial state of zero entropy because all paths, including reversible
>> ones, are equally valid.
>
> ?All paths leading up to the first instant of time are equally invalid
> because there were none. ?

How do you know that? Feynmann famously hypothesized that antimatter was
matter was matter going backwards in time. If equal amounts of matter and
antimatter were created at the "beginning" of time, then maybe the reason
we see so little antimatter in our universe is that it became its own
universe that blossomed on the backside of the "big bang". So there might
not have been a beginning of time, but instead, an *origin* of time where
t=0 such that positive and negative time run in the two opposite
directions.

>> But in the case of the universe, all those stop watches started at the
>> same time and in the same place.
>
> ?But to measure a time interval both a start and stop point is needed and
> all those stopwatches stopped at different times because ?there is no
> universal agreement on simultaneity, so there is no agreement on if watch
> X stopped
> before watch Y or watch Y stopped before watch X.

Ah but there is a universal agreement on simultaneity - a precise
mathematical definition given by special relativity in fact. It is the
3-dimensional space-like hyperplane passing through the observer's origin.

All events equidistant from the observer that lie in the hyperplane will
occur simultaneously with those happening closer to the observer observed
sooner.

So when you want to know what another observer that is moving relative to
you thinks is simultaneous, you can just apply the Lorentz tranformations
and you get the result that the plane of simultaneity "tilts" toward the
direction of motion as the relative speed approaches c.

In fact from the stationary observer's POV all events that are
simultaneous for the moving observer will lie on the hyperplane t =
(v/c^2)*x in the stationary observer's coordinate system.

> And to make things even
> worse the stopwatches are running at different rates. So there is no
> universal agreement on when the Big Bang happened; right here right now
> we say it was 13.8 billion years ago, but others would disagree

Under the assumption that we are the stationary observer, then our
measurement of 13.8 billion years is the maximum observable age of the
universe and all the moving observers will measure a younger universe
whose clock is moving slower than theirs.

Of course, we can't actually be stationary relative to the big bang
because at the very least we are moving away from it in time. This
suggests the universe could be far older than we measure it to be.

Furthermore the universe as whole is significantly larger than the
observable part of it, then there are parts of the universe for which our
"big bang" has not yet happened.

This why I think in terms of what I call causal cells rather than multiple
universes in a multiverse because causal cells do not require more than
four dimensions and instead gradually and continuously overlap one another
across infinite space-time.

The more you think about it, the less consistent big bang cosmology becomes.

> There are a infinite number of ways a bunch of distant clocks can be
> brought ?together in a expanding universe, and I don't see how everyone
> could agree on how to do it. Should distant clock X be brought to clock Y
>  or should clock Y be brought to clock X? It makes a difference because
> one clock would be accelerated and the other clock would not and a
> accelerated clock runs slower than one in a inertial frame of reference.

Why would you bring the clocks back together again? Just read the distant
clocks through a telescope and adjust for relative velocity and distance.
This of course limits you to the clocks in the your causal cell but
bringing clocks together physically is even more limited.

> A universe can be flat and still be
> ?expanding and even ?
> accelerating if there is a property of space itself that causes it to
> ?intrinsically ?
> contain energy, and we found out 20 years ago that there is, about 1/100
> of a ?n?
> erg per cubic meter. A erg is about as much energy as a common housefly
> needs to perform one push-up so that may not sound like much but there is
> a awful lot of otherwise empty cubic meters out there, so much so that
> today dark energy makes up 70% of the mass/energy in the entire universe.

That is one way to look at it. It might even be mathematically equivalent.
The way I am hypothesizing it happens is that everything we can see is
inside a hollow sphere of infinite thickness and constant density and thus
infinite mass. And so everything in the sphere is being gravitationally
pulled to the closest part of the sphere because the infinite mass of the
universe is just a little closer in that direction.

Thus causing negative pressure or tension in the outward radial direction
and the appearence of gravitational repulsion. Of course, one could always
look at it geometrically, in which case there is simply an inflection
point of curved spacetime where the curvature changes direction.

> And
> that percentage will increase as time passes because both normal matter
> and dark matter will keep getting diluted but dark energy will not, the
> more space ?that space itself creates
> the more dark energy there is ?,?
> but the amount of matter ?in the universe ?
> will be constant.

Why would you insist that matter be conserved but that energy is not?
Both Hawking radiation and radioactive decay are adding particles to the
universe. Those new particles then engage one or more pre-existing
particles   using one or more of the four fundamental forces producing a
range of potential and kinetic energies and thus new masses.

While it would seem at first glance that fusion decreases the particle
number of the universe, when one considers photons and neutrinos as
particles, it is clear that fusion too increases the particle number of
the universe.

So if the number of particles is increasing and they have relative
velocities and therefore kinetic energy, it is clear that the mass of the
universe must be increasing. But if energy is conserved, then that new
mass is cancelled by the negative energy of curved space-time caused by
gravity and the total energy of the universe stays at zero or perhaps a
non-zero constant. The point is, energy is conserved.

Obviously, as the particle number and volume of the universe increases, so
too will the entropy. Since those particles will have more degrees of
freedom available to them.

>> And the philosophical benefits of an infinite universe are also
>> satisfying. It would mean that we too are infinite with countless copies
>> repeated through time and space across the cosmos. Countless versions of
>> us living identical lives. Countless versions of us living every possible
>> permutation of our lives. Infinite copies of us taking every possible
>> road, almost all of which are unique.

> ?I find that philosophically satisfying too, and maybe its true but the
> universe is under no obligation to conform to human desires.  ?

But it does conform to physical laws that make human desires possible at
least here and now.

> ?The only reason humans invented conservation laws is to help us
> understand how the world works. If in circumstances far from everyday life
> we have to contort them in complex ways so they still apply then there
> gets to be a point where it's not worth the effort.

It is not the conservation laws that are the contortions but the
cosmological constant, dark energy and dark matter. They are like
epicycles. No need to make the universe more complicated than it already
is.

> The important thing is
> we can use the ? ?
> mathematical reasoning ? ?
> in Noether's theorem ? to conclude that if the fundamental laws that tell
> objects ?how to move do not change with the passage of time then energy is
> conceived, but General Relativity says they do
> change with the passage of time.

But GR is itself a law that allows one to determine the laws of motion in
any particlular time and place. So those local laws are highly
deterministic and consisten in the "there and then".

> I go back to my example of a gamma ray
> photon produced in the Big Bang, because something very fundamental has
> changes since that photon was produced, space has expanded, that gamma ray
> photon is now a far less energetic microwave photon and eventually space
> will have expanded so much it will be a radio photon with a wavelength ? ?
> longer than the observable universe and be undetectable even in principle.
>  The energy in that photon would have been conserved if space didn't
> expand, but it does so it isn't. ?

My equations admittedly do not allow one to "itemize" the energy content
of space-time into components. I need tensors and GR for that. But with GR
one often loses sight of the forest for the trees. I have intentionally
simplified the picture by combining all the components of energy into a
single gravitational mass density.

Your photon is losing energy to the negative energy of the expansion of
curved spacetime just like gravity. Except that the curve is in the
opposite direction due to the influence of infinite mass strewn across
infinite spacetime the same as if the photon was climing a hill with a
crater atop it representing your local gravity well.

If the gravity well was deep enough and you were in it, then the
gravitaional blue-shift to the photon would recover the energy it lost to
the expansion of the universe and energy would be conserved. What the
negative energy of the universe takes, it can give back, in the right time
and place.

>> keep in mind that in a flat universe Dc is not just the critical ? ?
>> density of the universe but also the actual density of the universe. ?
>
> The equation you're using, Dc = 3H^2/(8*pi*G)
> ,
> ?where Dc is the critical density ?
> is only valid if the cosmological constant is zero, but we've known for 20
>  years that i ?t?
> can't be zero because the universe is accelerating. So density alone
> doesn't determine geometry of the universe and ?thus we can't be living
> in a ? simple?
> ?
> Friedmann universe

The acceleration of the universe is just the curvature of spacetime in the
outward direction caused by the mass density in all the other causal
cells. Come on, acceleration, curvature, and gravity are all synonomous.
It's just the equivalence principle and Einstein came up with that. Not
me.

> ?The density of normal matter and Dark Matter has decreased over time but
>  it has become clear that the gravitation caused by matter alone (not
> even with the help of dark Matter) is insufficient to explain the
> evolution of the universe. For a very long time the expansion of the
> universe was slowing down just as you'd expect, but about 5 billion years
> ago (and nearly 9 billion year after the Big Bang) the deceleration
> stopped and things started to accelerate. This can only be because the
> matter became diluted and so did the gravitational force trying to slow
> things down but some property of space itself called Dark Energy which
> nobody understands causes things to speed up, so whatever it is when there
> is more space there is more Dark Energy   ?

Where is the evidence that the universe has been decreasing in density? If
space-time is expanding and the particle number of the universe is
increasing, then density could be going up.


>> Good. That's all my theory needs is for gravity to be able to "influence
>>  things" faster than light. No Shannon entropy need be exchanged.
>
> ?But you also said:?
>
> ?*"?*
> *In a flat? universe, dark energy is just superluminal gravity at long
> ranges* ?"?
>
> ?I'm not sure what that means. If Dark Energy is a property of space
> itself as if seems to be then it doesn't need to travel a long distance to
> be manifest. ?

Gravity only "travels" if you think of time and space seperately, the same
intituitive way that you perceive them. If you simply think in terms of
geometric spacetime, then nothing is actually moving FTL or otherwise
except your perceptions.

Another way of describing superluminal gravity is by saying that the slope
of spacetime can become infinite and at a certain point, it can become so
steep that not even light can escape it. The point is, event horizons,
both gravitional and cosmological are the "walls" of the causal cells we
observers reside in. And gravity can pierce right through those walls in
all directions.

>
>> My earlier attempts at quantum gravity have been overturned by the
>> super-long Compton wavelength of the graviton reported by LIGO.
>
>
> ?I don't know what you mean by that, LIGO has not detected the graviton
> nor has anybody else, it is purely theoretical and may not even exist and
> even if it does I think its unlikely anyone will be able to find one this
> century. ?

They did not detect the graviton, they simply used their data to bound its
mass and Compton wavelength, if it exists.

>From their earlier paper:

"Finally, assuming a modified dispersion relation for gravitational waves
[97], our observations constrain the Compton wavelength of the graviton to
be ?g > 10^13 km, which could be interpreted as a bound on the graviton
mass
mg < 1.2?10^?22 eV/c^2."

>From paragraph 6 of the discussion

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.116.061102#fulltext

>> My equations simply lump pressure and tension together with matter
>> density and radiation density through the mass-energy equivalence
>> principle. It just deals with total density of all components of the
>> stress-energy tensor converted to mass.
>>
>
> Both pressure and tension are potential energy, but Einstein says
> pressure causes gravitational attraction but  ?tension (negative pressure)
> causes gravitational repulsion.

Gravity is just spacetime curvature and spacetime can curve toward or away
from a mass. What I am saying is that spacetime cannot curve away from a
mass without curving toward some other mass somewhere.

What's outside of our light-cone? Literally almost *everything*.

Stuart LaForge





From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov  6 17:31:04 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:31:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dark energy = (anti)gravity?
In-Reply-To: <e67b2de81318553b083a060d60259111.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e67b2de81318553b083a060d60259111.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2zWroPpWV7S4PsQxso6mvjKz9M0=2zyQAfGV90n_PEwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 1:47 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> All paths leading up to the first instant of time are equally invalid
>> ? ?
>> because there were none.
>
>
> How do you know that?


?Are you asking how I know the first is the first??


>
>>  in the case of the universe, all those stop watches started at the
>> ? ?
>> same time and in the same place.
>> ? But?
>>  to measure a time interval both a start and stop point is needed and
>> ? ?
>> all those stopwatches stopped at different times because there is no
>> ? ?
>> universal agreement on simultaneity, so there is no agreement on if
>> watch X stopped before watch Y or watch Y stopped before watch X.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Ah but there is a universal agreement on simultaneity - a precise
> ? ?
> mathematical definition given by special relativity


?That is incorrect. There is ?
universal agreement
? on the spacetime distance between ?2 events but there is no
universal agreement
? on the spacial distance between the 2 events nor is there agreement on
the time interval between the 2 events or even agreement on if event X
happened before Y or Y happened before X.


> ?> ?
> All events equidistant from the observer that lie in the hyperplane will
> ? ?
> occur simultaneously


?That is not universal agreement. Yes you can always find 2 observers that
agree, but I can always find one that doesn't, in fact I can find an
infinite number of them.

>
>> ?>?
>> And to make things even
>> ? ?
>> worse the stopwatches are running at different rates. So there is no
>> ? ?
>> universal agreement on when the Big Bang happened; right here right now
>> ? ?
>> we say it was 13.8 billion years ago, but others would disagree
>
>
> ?> ?
> Under the assumption that we are the stationary observer,


?Would an observer in the Coma Cluster be willing to make that assumption?
Why are we more important than him even from his point of view??


> ?> ?
> then our
> ? ?
> measurement of 13.8 billion years is the maximum observable age of the
> ? ?
> universe


Perhaps so ?if the universe were to come to an end today. ?



> ?> ?
> and all the moving observers will measure a younger universe
> ? ?
> whose clock is moving slower than theirs.
>

?If you and I are moving relative to each other I will see your clock
moving slower than my clock and you will see my clock running slower than
your clock. There is no contradiction in this because when we try to
measure how long it takes for one of us to move between 2 points we don't
agree on when to start and stop the stopwatch. It's a good thing there
isn't universal agreement on simultaneity, if there were physics would be
logically inconsistent.

?> ?
> Of course, we can't actually be stationary relative to the big bang
>

?We can't be moving away from the spot where the Big Bang happened because
it happened right here, ?it's just that the spot keeps getting bigger with
time.


?> ?
> because at the very least we are moving away from it in time. This
> ? ?
> suggests the universe could be far older than we measure it to be.
>

?I don't know what you mean by that.?


?> ?
> Furthermore the universe as whole is significantly larger than the
> ? ?
> observable part of it, then
> ? ?
> there are parts of the universe for which our
> ? ?
> "big bang" has not yet happened.


?I don't understand that either.?


> >
>> ?> ?
>> There are a infinite number of ways a bunch of distant clocks can be
>> ? ?
>> brought together in a expanding universe, and I don't see how everyone
>> ? ?
>> could agree on how to do it. Should distant clock X be brought to clock Y
>> ? ?
>> or should clock Y be brought to clock X It makes a difference because
>> ? ?
>> one clock would be accelerated and the other clock would not and
>> a accelerated clock runs slower than one in a inertial frame of reference.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Why would you bring the clocks back together again? Just read the distant
> ? ?
> clocks through a telescope and adjust for relative velocity and distance.
>

?I don't see what the point of that would be, we already know what we'd see
through our telescopes, we'd both see a stopwatch running slower than our
own. And if I am going south at half the speed of light and you are going
north at half the speed of light and I watch you through my telescope
measure the time it takes you to pass mile markers on the road I will see
you write in your notebook the same figure that I do even though I see your
stopwatch running slow, because from my viewpoint you started and stopped
your stopwatch at the wrong times. We don't agree on simultaneity, we don't
agree on the instant you passed the 2 mile markers.

If you bring the clocks together to find out which clock was *really*
running slow the symmetry of the situation will be broken because one must
accelerate and one must not. If you accelerate back toward me you will see
my clock running FASTER than your clock and I will see your clock running
SLOWER than my clock. When you get back to the same place I'm at and we're
moving at zero speed relative to each other we will both observe both
clocks again running at the same rate but they will no longer
be synchronized, we will agree that much more time has passed on my clock
than your on clock because your clock was accelerating but mine was not.
The same thing would happen if instead of accelerating you were in a
stronger gravitational field than me.


> ?> ?
> The way I am hypothesizing it happens is that everything we can see is
> ? ?
> inside a hollow sphere of infinite thickness and constant density and thus
> ? ?
> infinite mass. And so everything in the sphere is being gravitationally
> ? ?
> pulled to the closest part of the sphere because the infinite mass of the
> ? ?
> universe is just a little closer in that direction.
>

?Infinite
 thickness? Be careful, there Be Dragons. If I'm standing on the inner or
outer surface of a sphere with an
 ?i
nfinite radius
? ?
the surfaces
? ?
will both look the same to me,
? ?
they
? ?
will look like I'm standing on a infinitely flat infinity large plane, and
the gravitational acceleration produced by such a plane is 2*?*G*D*H,
? ?
where G is the gravitational constant, D is the density and H is the
thickness of the plane. A derivation of this formula can be found in volume
1 of The Feynman Lectures On Physics, in section 13-4 called "Gravitational
field of large objects".
? ?
There are 2 interesting things to see from that formula:

1) Unlike a point source or a finite sphere the gravitational field does
not decrease with the square of the distance, in fact for a infinite sphere
or infinite plane the gravity does not decrease at all for any finite
distance.

2) If it's infinitely thick then H is infinite so if D,  the density, is
not zero then the g force on the surface will be infinite and not just on
the surface, it will be infinite everywhere. Needless to say we do not
observe that.

And even if the sphere is not infinite but just astronomically large
I don't see how
?that idea
can explain why the universe was decelerating for the first 9 billion years
of its existence and only started accelerating 5 billion years ago. It's
also odd that the Earth happens to be at a very untypical place, the center
of a infinite sphere. It all seems a bit too Ptolemaic.  ?

>
>> ?>?
>> And that percentage will increase as time passes because both normal
>> matter
>> ? ?
>> and dark matter will keep getting diluted but dark energy will not, the
>> ? ?
>> more space that space itself creates
>> ? ?
>> he more dark energy there is
>> ?but
>>  the amount of matter in the universe
>> will be constant.
>
>
> ?> why ?
> would you insist that matter be conserved but that energy is not?
>

?I don't insist on matter being conserved but not energy, but for the last
20 years we've have lots of empirical evidence that the universe does
insist on exactly that. As to why the universe prefers things that way
you'll have to ask the universe not me.

?> ?
> Both Hawking radiation and radioactive decay are adding particles to the
> ? ?
> universe.


So what? That in no way changes the fact that as the universe expands the
mass of matter in the universe, both dark and regular, becomes more and
more diluted but Dark Energy does not because unlike matter Dark Energy is
a property of space itself.


> While it would seem at first glance that fusion decreases the particle
> ? ?
> number of the universe,
> ? ?
> when one considers photons and neutrinos as
> ? ?
> particles, it is clear that fusion too increases the particle number ofthe
> universe.


?True
, when 3 protons fuse they produce 4 particles, a positron a neutrino a
gamma ray and a Helium-3 nucleus, but the number of particles is irrelevant
from a cosmological perspective, but the total mass/energy is not and the
fusion process does not change that.


> when one considers photons and neutrinos as
> ? ?
> particles, it is clear that fusion too increases the particle number of
> the universe.
>

?Fusion or no fusion the mass/energy content of the hydrogen remans
constant, ?Hawking radiation or no Hawking radiation the mass/energy
content of a Black Hole remans constant; but as the universe expands
the  mass/energy
content of Dark Energy does NOT remain constant.

?> ?
> So if the number of particles is increasing and they have relative
> ? ?
> velocities and therefore kinetic energy, it is clear that the mass of the
> universe must be increasing.


?No that is not clear at all. The number of neutrinos is certainly
increasing but as they have AT LEAST 45 billion times less mass than a
proton that fact is not very important.  ?
The mass of matter is not increasing,
? the amount of Dark Energy is.?

?> ?
> But if energy is conserved
> ? [...]?
>

?On a cosmological scale energy is not conserved in a expanding
accelerating
Einsteinian ?
?universe.?

?> ?
> Obviously, as the particle number and volume of the universe increases, so
> ? ?
> too will the entropy. Since those particles will have more degrees of
> ? ?
> freedom available to them.
>

?I agree.?

?> ?
> It is not the conservation laws that are the contortions but the
> ? ?
> cosmological constant, dark energy and dark matter. They are like
> epicycles. No need to make the universe more complicated than it already
> ? ?
> is.
>

Einstein said theories should be as simple as possible but
?not?
 simpler. I admit the physical theories we have today are a bit of a mess
but if somebody can come up with a simpler idea that can explain the rather
? ?
bizarre
? ?
observations we've been seeing
? ?
recently
? ?
I'm sure it would be embraced with enthusiasm, but that won't be easy. For
example, some have proposed getting rid of Dark Matter by modifying the
laws of gravity, but no modification can explain galaxy
? ?
Dragonfly 44. From the motion of stars and the orbits of globular clusters
in orbit around
? ?
it we know that
? ?
Dragonfly 44
? ?
has about the same mass as our galaxy, a trillion solar masses, and yet
? ?
Dragonfly 44
? ?
has little gas or dust and less than 1% as many stars as the Milky Way
does, it is one of a new class of objects called "dark galaxies". Unless
there is no universal law of gravity at all because it works differently in
dark galaxies than in normal galaxies like ours the only conclusion is that
99.99% of the matter in
? ?
Dragonfly 44
? ?
must be dark verses only 88% for the Milky Way.


> ?> ?
> The acceleration of the universe is just the curvature of spacetime in the
> ? ?
> outward direction caused by the mass density in all the other causal
> ? ?
> cells. Come on, acceleration, curvature, and gravity are all synonomous.
>

?But we now know that mass alone can not explain the large scale shape of
spacetime, and even mass and pressure is not sufficient to do so because
?tension caused by Dark Energy is also a factor, and in fact the most
important factor.



> ?> ?
> It's just the equivalence principle and Einstein came up with that. Not
> ? ?
> me.
>

?The ?equivalence principle is still true, spacetime still tells matter how
to move, its just that we now know that matter is not the only thing that
tells spacetime how to curve, Dark Energy also has a say in how spacetime
should curve.

>
>> ?>?
>> The density of normal matter and Dark Matter has decreased over time but
>> ? ?
>>  it has become clear that the gravitation caused by matter alone (not
>> ? ?
>> even with the help of dark Matter) is insufficient to explain the
>> ? ?
>> evolution of the universe. For a very long time the expansion of the
>> ? ?
>> universe was slowing down just as you'd expect, but about 5 billion years
>> ? ?
>> (and nearly 9 billion year after the Big Bang) the deceleration
>> ? ?
>> stopped and things started to accelerate. This can only be because the
>> ? ?
>> matter became diluted and so did the gravitational force trying to slow
>> ? ?
>> things down but some property of space itself called Dark Energy which
>> ? ?
>> nobody understands causes things to speed up, so whatever it is when there
>> ? ?
>> is more space there is more Dark Energy
>
>
> ?> ?
> Where is the evidence that the universe has been decreasing in density?


?The evidence has been known since 2003. For the first 9 Billion years of
its existence the expansion of the universe was slowing down, but about 5
billion years ago that changed and it started to speed up because the
amount of matter (both dark and non-dark) that was trying to slow thins
down became more dilute as space expanded but the amount of Dark Energy
trying to speed things up did not become more dilute due to the fact that
Dark Energy is a property of space itself.

http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/383612/meta

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/11/us/a-cosmic-jerk-that-reve
rsed-the-universe.html



> ?> ?
> If
> ? ?
> space-time is expanding and the particle number of the universe is
> increasing, then density could be going up.
>

?The number of particles is irrelevant, the total mass of all those
particles is not and that total mass of matter remains constant, but the
amount of space those particles can be in is not constant if space is
expanding so mass is becoming more dilute. And if Dark Energy is a property
of space itself then it is not becoming more dilute as space expands.
?Matter tries to slow the expansion and Dark Energy tries to speed it up,
for 9 billion years matter won that tug of war but then it just got too
dilute 5 billion years ago and Dark Energy started to win.


> ?> ?
> What I am saying is that spacetime cannot curve away from a
> ? ?
> mass without curving toward some other mass somewhere.
> ?
>

?Curved 4D spacetime can be defined without the need for a fifth dimension
or anything else for it to curve into. Curved spacetime just means the
Euclidian distance formula, aka the Pythagorean Theorem, will not work
there but Einstein provided a distance formula that will.

> ?

> ?> ?
> What's outside of our light-cone? Literally almost *everything*.
>

?Maybe everything maybe nothing, it's outside our light-cone so we can
never know. ?

?

John K Clark?







>
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  7 20:34:00 2017
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:34:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>

Good morning boys and girls.  It's a pleasure to be back with you again.

Back in October of 1997, I got my first computer.  I signed up for free
internet with NetZero, loaded up Netscape Navigator, and through a sequence
of events now lost to the mists of memory, stumbled upon the exi list,...
and found a home in the transhumanist tribe.  I had a wonderful time with
youse guys. For 16 years I came to the clubhouse every day until, in June
of 2013, I bid you farewell and ventured out into the world to seek my
fortune.

"And what have you seen, my blue eyed boy?"

Now, I return with tales to tell of the wonders I have seen and the
adventures I have had,... and am having.

So settle in, and be amazed.

I was once a man of modest means, wont to describe myself as independently
austere.  A late-night denizen of the undergraduate library at UC Berkeley
-- it's open till 3 in the morning!  A person of no importance.  A wise ass
underachiever, lazy, opinionated, self-indulgent and self-absorbed.

But lucky.   Yes, the secret to my success is my unstinting and undeserved
good luck.   Many are those who lament their all-too-frequent encounters
with misfortune.  You never hear those who roll the dice and win, to
declare -- or even notice -- the "unfairness" of it, the unfairness of
their Good Fortune.   Yet that is the essence of my story.   The God of
Wiseasses has made a project of me. Or, as Mark Twain has noted, "Those who
are born to hang are safe in the water."

So here's the deal:

In 2014, my wife Gail is sitting at her computer... the years of hanging
out with a techno-weenie transhumanist has had its effect ... and she says
to me," This Bitcoin thing,... It looks like the wave of the future, let's
invest some of the money in that." -- We had just sold our house in Canada
and had a couple a hundred grand hanging around, looking for a home. --
Barely acknowledging her comment, online and engrossed as usual, not even
looking up, I waved my hand and said, "Go for it."

Bitcoin had just crashed, ,,, er, "corrected"... from a first peak of
speculative frenzy which had taken it to a thousand, down to 200.  We
bought 80,000 dollars worth in tranches at 300, 400, and 600.

Then, a year or so later we sold a piece of property in Half Moon Bay for
100k,... just as Ethereum was emerging.  Caught up now in the
cryptocurrency frenzy, her Jewish gene up-regulated, Gail says to me,
"Let's buy some Ethereum."  I waved my hand as before, and we put 50k into
Ethereum at $12.  Do the math.  Gail might very well be some sort of
savant.  Me, I'm just lucky.

And so, I began a new life.

I saw the ICO phenomena emerging from the Ethereum project, and I saw an
opportunity.   Gail became a voracious consumer of cryptocurrency
information: my in-house research department.  We became a team.  I had
transhumanist projects to fund and I went out into the world looking for
someone to show me how to "stage" my ICO's.

I found a fellow in Pleasanton, 30 years experience in failed software
startups, SLAC veteran, robot hobbyist, my kind of guy.  He too had
recognized the opportunity, and was looking for a funding partner.  It was
a perfect match. We put our heads together, and came up with a plan to
stage an ICO to fund a cryptocurrency Investment bank, Pathfinder Equity
Systems... I'm the eccentric rich guy who writes the checks, he's the
experienced and grounded business guy who does the work.  "A drunkard's
dream if I ever did see one."  We launch in eight days or so.

In our first stage, we'll be processing ICO's for small and medium-sized
tech firms in Venture Capital portfolios.  Currently, the value in these
companies, and the VC's investments, are "trapped", unable to take the
final  leap to enhanced value by going public with a conventional ***IPO***
process.  That's where the cryptocurrecy-based ICO process comes into play,
offering an alternative route to: public trading, liberated liquidity,
enhanced company value, and investment recovery/profit extraction for the
VCs.

Here's our website:

http://www.icopathfinder.com/

And here's a link to a sponsored article in VentureBeat, for a more
detailed idea of what we're up to.

https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/29/reverse-icos-may-be-your-best-vc-portfolio-exit/


It gets better, way better.

Tomorrow: the Pathfinder Moonshot.  This is the good stuff.  You're gonna
love it.

Best, Jeff Davis

     "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                           Ray Charles
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov  8 06:22:44 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 22:22:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 12:34 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> >
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder

 

>?Good morning boys and girls.  It's a pleasure to be back with you again?

 

 

Welcome back Jeff.

 

The number of posters is waaaay down since you have been away.

 

We missed you man.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 12:36:45 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 07:36:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dDKEWzSrr6rTOxfDRg053Sa0pTaT2p832jqek_V1=38w@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome back and congrats on striking it rich!!

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 12:41:13 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 07:41:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3WwZLfccJu920S7fUDX0MMkBbKLAb40h1hxefdBDQ5UA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jeff!

Its great to see that you're back and I'm delighted to hear of your success!

John K Clark
============

?Jeff Davis wrote:?
>
>

Good morning boys and girls.  It's a pleasure to be back with you again.
> Back in October of 1997, I got my first computer.  I signed up for free
> internet with NetZero, loaded up Netscape Navigator, and through a sequence
> of events now lost to the mists of memory, stumbled upon the exi list,...
> and found a home in the transhumanist tribe.  I had a wonderful time with
> youse guys. For 16 years I came to the clubhouse every day until, in June
> of 2013, I bid you farewell and ventured out into the world to seek my
> fortune.
> "And what have you seen, my blue eyed boy?"
> Now, I return with tales to tell of the wonders I have seen and the
> adventures I have had,... and am having
> So settle in, and be amazed.
> I was once a man of modest means, wont to describe myself as independently
> austere.  A late-night denizen of the undergraduate library at UC Berkeley
> -- it's open till 3 in the morning!  A person of no importance.  A wise ass
> underachiever, lazy, opinionated, self-indulgent and self-absorbed.
>


> But lucky.   Yes, the secret to my success is my unstinting and undeserved
> good luck.   Many are those who lament their all-too-frequent encounters
> with misfortune.  You never hear those who roll the dice and win, to
> declare -- or even notice -- the "unfairness" of it, the unfairness of
> their Good Fortune.   Yet that is the essence of my story.   The God of
> Wiseasses has made a project of me. Or, as Mark Twain has noted, "Those who
> are born to hang are safe in the water."
> So here's the deal:
> ?
>


> ?
>
> In 2014, my wife Gail is sitting at her computer... the years of hanging
> out with a techno-weenie transhumanist has had its effect ... and she says
> to me," This Bitcoin thing,... It looks like the wave of the future, let's
> invest some of the money in that." -- We had just sold our house in Canada
> and had a couple a hundred grand hanging around, looking for a home. --
> Barely acknowledging her comment, online and engrossed as usual, not even
> looking up, I waved my hand and said, "Go for it."
> Bitcoin had just crashed, ,,, er, "corrected"... from a first peak of
> speculative frenzy which had taken it to a thousand, down to 200.  We
> bought 80,000 dollars worth in tranches at 300, 400, and 600.
> ?
>


> ?
>
> Then, a year or so later we sold a piece of property in Half Moon Bay for
> 100k,... just as Ethereum was emerging.  Caught up now in the
> cryptocurrency frenzy, her Jewish gene up-regulated, Gail says to me,
> "Let's buy some Ethereum."  I waved my hand as before, and we put 50k into
> Ethereum at $12.  Do the math.  Gail might very well be some sort of
> savant.  Me, I'm just lucky.
> And so, I began a new life
> ?
>


> ?
>
> I saw the ICO phenomena emerging from the Ethereum project, and I saw an
> opportunity.   Gail became a voracious consumer of cryptocurrency
> information: my in-house research department.  We became a team.  I had
> transhumanist projects to fund and I went out into the world looking for
> someone to show me how to "stage" my ICO's.
> I found a fellow in Pleasanton, 30 years experience in failed software
> startups, SLAC veteran, robot hobbyist, my kind of guy.  He too had
> recognized the opportunity, and was looking for a funding partner.  It was
> a perfect match. We put our heads together, and came up with a plan to
> stage an ICO to fund a cryptocurrency Investment bank, Pathfinder Equity
> Systems... I'm the eccentric rich guy who writes the checks, he's the
> experienced and grounded business guy who does the work.  "A drunkard's
> dream if I ever did see one."  We launch in eight days or so.
>


> In our first stage, we'll be processing ICO's for small and medium-sized
> tech firms in Venture Capital portfolios.  Currently, the value in these
> companies, and the VC's investments, are "trapped", unable to take the
> final  leap to enhanced value by going public with a conventional ***IPO***
> process.  That's where the cryptocurrecy-based ICO process comes into play,
> offering an alternative route to: public trading, liberated liquidity,
> enhanced company value, and investment recovery/profit extraction for the
> VCs.
> Here's our website:
>


> http://www.icopathfinder.com/
> And here's a link to a sponsored article in VentureBeat, for a more
> detailed idea of what we're up to.
>
> https://venturebeat.com/2017/09/29/reverse-icos-may-be-your-best-vc-portfolio-exit/
>
> It gets better, way better.
> Tomorrow: the Pathfinder Moonshot.  This is the good stuff.  You're gonna
> love it.
> Best, Jeff Davis
>      "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                                            Ray Charles
>
>
>
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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 14:32:31 2017
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 14:32:31 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dDKEWzSrr6rTOxfDRg053Sa0pTaT2p832jqek_V1=38w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dDKEWzSrr6rTOxfDRg053Sa0pTaT2p832jqek_V1=38w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTT0xNsjqQ1SbGyk8fV-TfUPWhsH9yqivsniLO7ZFehB6A@mail.gmail.com>

How exactly did he ?strike it rich? can someone refresh my memory? Thanks

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 7:39 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> Welcome back and congrats on striking it rich!!
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 15:38:45 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:38:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <CALHxhTT0xNsjqQ1SbGyk8fV-TfUPWhsH9yqivsniLO7ZFehB6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dDKEWzSrr6rTOxfDRg053Sa0pTaT2p832jqek_V1=38w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALHxhTT0xNsjqQ1SbGyk8fV-TfUPWhsH9yqivsniLO7ZFehB6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dbFkVwRSFn81z89FQmN-vy8DYF3j0kWXvVaMm2yi=DvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Angel Z. Lopez <zoielsoy at gmail.com> wrote:

> How exactly did he ?strike it rich? can someone refresh my memory? Thanks
>

"In 2014, my wife Gail is sitting at her computer... the years of hanging
out with a techno-weenie transhumanist has had its effect ... and she says
to me," This Bitcoin thing,... It looks like the wave of the future, let's
invest some of the money in that." -- We had just sold our house in Canada
and had a couple a hundred grand hanging around, looking for a home. --
Barely acknowledging her comment, online and engrossed as usual, not even
looking up, I waved my hand and said, "Go for it."

Bitcoin had just crashed, ,,, er, "corrected"... from a first peak of
speculative frenzy which had taken it to a thousand, down to 200.  We
bought 80,000 dollars worth in tranches at 300, 400, and 600.

Then, a year or so later we sold a piece of property in Half Moon Bay for
100k,... just as Ethereum was emerging.  Caught up now in the
cryptocurrency frenzy, her Jewish gene up-regulated, Gail says to me,
"Let's buy some Ethereum."  I waved my hand as before, and we put 50k into
Ethereum at $12.  Do the math.  Gail might very well be some sort of
savant.  Me, I'm just lucky. "

-Dave
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From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Nov  8 15:41:04 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:41:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dbFkVwRSFn81z89FQmN-vy8DYF3j0kWXvVaMm2yi=DvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkOE3BT4VCh7YKermUSn7f1KHNmnQMewvuEgFQOTHN2a1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a601d35859$fdfa4f90$f9eeeeb0$@att.net>
 <CAM5aL2dDKEWzSrr6rTOxfDRg053Sa0pTaT2p832jqek_V1=38w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALHxhTT0xNsjqQ1SbGyk8fV-TfUPWhsH9yqivsniLO7ZFehB6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dbFkVwRSFn81z89FQmN-vy8DYF3j0kWXvVaMm2yi=DvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e4OaykEPP+sKb3X3zFQp09UWgZaBHSEdLHUUpuCR6F-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Jeff, were you affected by the Parity wallet fiasco?

http://www.businessinsider.com/ethereum-parity-wallet-hack-freeze-missing-code-2017-11

-Dave
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Thu Nov  9 19:39:35 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 21:39:35 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please react!
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends,



I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for aging
care and research.



It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
health care and health research!



http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft Work
Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place until
November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles. Thank you for
your action!



http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?



Sincerely,



Ilia Stambler, PhD

On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens Movement (
Israel)

http://www.longevityisrael.org/

Longevity for All

www.longevityforall.org/


-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 10 15:50:16 2017
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 08:50:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOj0kYFuAqXo_HUjzb8eOTSY1-=qXhsR10LOc01YcW6nA@mail.gmail.com>

Dave Sparge asks,

*"Jeff, were you affected by the Parity wallet fiasco?"
*

Nope.

Gail's step-sister, who has control issues, insisted that we must take
our money out of the exchange and put it in our own hard wallet, for
security reasons, lest the Exchange be hacked. I gave it some thought,
asked myself who has better security, me at the house, or the exchange
with millions of dollars in Revenue per day on the line?   I decided
to go with the exchange. Coinbase. We do have a hard wallet but we
haven't used it yet.

Best, Jeff Davis

           "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                             Ray Charles
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Nov 10 16:20:07 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:20:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkOj0kYFuAqXo_HUjzb8eOTSY1-=qXhsR10LOc01YcW6nA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkOj0kYFuAqXo_HUjzb8eOTSY1-=qXhsR10LOc01YcW6nA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cTUkjbqPLofFp8+QnrN99nsEuSZ6QnP+1qde5ki9=nyw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Gail's step-sister, who has control issues, insisted that we must take our money out of the exchange and put it in our own hard wallet, for security reasons, lest the Exchange be hacked. I gave it some thought, asked myself who has better security, me at the house, or the exchange with millions of dollars in Revenue per day on the line?   I decided to go with the exchange. Coinbase. We do have a hard wallet but we haven't used it yet.
>
> Yeah, that not an easy call. You'd think Parity, holding hundreds of
millions in Ether, would be pretty secure, too. But, no: it's gone.

Exchanges have a rough history. Security isn't easy and they're very
attractive targets.

If I had substantial holdings most of them would be in cold storage,
completely offline.

-Dave
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 10 17:48:41 2017
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 10:48:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pathfinder Moonshot
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMt8+ijXPnTqGsQzxoLTxdvLGCthLZJuAw8eDMAbjpQCA@mail.gmail.com>

When last we heard from our intrepid adventurer:

*I'm the eccentric rich guy who writes the checks, he's the*
*experienced and grounded business guy who does the work.  "A drunkard's*
*dream if I ever did see one."  We launch in eight days or so.*

--------Heads up to John Clark----------
Glad to be back John, and glad you're still here. One of the best of
the Exi list.  I've always appreciated your uncompromising rigor.
----------------------------------------

So here I am, writing the checks, while other people do the work. What
a sweet arrangement! Wish I'd figured that out 40 years ago.  Ahhh,
well.

Every other day I'd check in with my guy putting pieces together, and
we'd chat about the plan going forward.

Now one of the issues was marketing. Any fundraising effort has to
reach out to potential investors to let them know you're there, so
they can evaluate your project and send you some money.   Our strategy
was to deploy a major marketing effort.  Establish our brand.  Be the
first in the crypto space to do so.  To this day no one has branded
themselves as a -- much less  ****the**** -- cryptocurrency Investment
Bank.

At this point that the big guy, in his managerial savvy, decided to
kill two birds with one stone. He says, let's have a Moonshot.   All
the big players have one, it's the latest thing.   So he says to me,
"You take charge of the Moonshot?"  (This keeps the wild man -- me --
out of his way, while the grounded business guy -- he -- works in the
trenches.)

Thus I came to realize one of the great advantages of being the guy
who writes the checks. I get to do whatever I want to do.  Yeah, baby!
 The fun stuff, please.  I'll take the fun stuff.  You want a
Moonshot?  A Moonshot you shall have.  What then might that be?

And so I circled back to all the transhumanist projects accumulated
over 20 years, the adventures I, or any of my >h tribe have longed to
see emerge from out the >h dream space.   Something of global
prominence.  Something fueled by human urgency.  Hmmmmm.   Okay then,
let's solve the global warming problem.  That's the ticket.

Now I presume you guys have been alert, and noticed the thorium
molten-salt reactor(TMSR) business.  Have you also been keeping track
of the progress of the Perovskite Solar Cell(PSC) effort?   Well, I
decided to put the two of them together and create a vehicle --  a
twofer --  a project to simultaneously remediate global warming while
also serving as a marvelous publicity vehicle for Pathfinder's own
ICO.

Note: It hardly needs mentioning that replacing all the current
coal-fired electricity generation, plus the additional energy of a
rapidly modernizing world, plus the additional energy that will be
required when electricity replaces gasoline in the world's cars,...
well, yuuuge!  It's no way a one company thing, it's going to require
everybody, as in EV RE BODY, and the entire spectrum of energy
generation technologies. I'm under no illusion that the Pathfinder
Moonshot is going to do the whole job, we're just going to get the
ball rolling, clear the path, as it were.  In this regard, the
inclusion of PSC is dual purpose. On the one hand we need solar
because we need energy from every possible source, and on the other
hand solar gives political cover -- re the environmental issue -- to
Thorium nuclear.

So, there it is: The Pathfinder Moonshot.  Fix global warming.
Megalomania.  You should try it some time.  What fun!

I won't go into detail -- I've got work to do, and must get back to it
-- but I reached out to the various TMSR projects -- Flibe,
Transatomics, Terrestrial Energy -- I missed the Chinese and Indian
projects; I really have to reach out to them as well -- until, at
last, I came across ThorCon Power, and it was love at first sight.
Their attitude, approach, team, and engineering style resonated with
me like we were all on the same frequency.   So long story short,
we're over the hump and working towards funding them a couple hundred
million dollars with an ICO.

(The PSC aspect has yet to be secured, but I'm working on it.)

Is that enough?  Are we having fun yet?   Mayhap.

But there's more.  And I'll get to that in the coming days.  Yee hah!

Best, Jeff Davis

        "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                  Ray Charles
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From mrjones2020 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 10 17:50:24 2017
From: mrjones2020 at gmail.com (J.R. Jones)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:50:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cTUkjbqPLofFp8+QnrN99nsEuSZ6QnP+1qde5ki9=nyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkOj0kYFuAqXo_HUjzb8eOTSY1-=qXhsR10LOc01YcW6nA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cTUkjbqPLofFp8+QnrN99nsEuSZ6QnP+1qde5ki9=nyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADDVf2KE_wWLk8SvDkVyxns6f-igehXshzPKd183BEXhSh0kdg@mail.gmail.com>

Ledger Nano S, that's how I keep mine.
Congratulations on your windfall.

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017, 11:22 Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Gail's step-sister, who has control issues, insisted that we must take our money out of the exchange and put it in our own hard wallet, for security reasons, lest the Exchange be hacked. I gave it some thought, asked myself who has better security, me at the house, or the exchange with millions of dollars in Revenue per day on the line?   I decided to go with the exchange. Coinbase. We do have a hard wallet but we haven't used it yet.
>>
>> Yeah, that not an easy call. You'd think Parity, holding hundreds of
> millions in Ether, would be pretty secure, too. But, no: it's gone.
>
> Exchanges have a rough history. Security isn't easy and they're very
> attractive targets.
>
> If I had substantial holdings most of them would be in cold storage,
> completely offline.
>
> -Dave
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Sat Nov 11 10:01:38 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 12:01:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cta] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please
	react!
In-Reply-To: <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Lincoln!



Here I prepared a statement for the consultation, on behalf of our
organization ? the Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
Movement (Israel).



Please see the link:

http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/



It is summarized in the title: *Include specific tasks and goals to improve
health of the global aging population into the WHO 13th General Programme
of Work (GPW13).*



The statement is short, but not very short, as I believe should be a
statement on behalf of an organization. But I do encourage you to make
statements of any length, individually and/or on behalf of your
organizations! It could be a thorough analysis or just a statement like
?The WHO should care for the health of the aged. Please include the issues
of aged health into the WHO work program?.


http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



You are welcome to reuse any of the statements in our appeal, and/or create
your own (perhaps better to have multiple voices). Also joint commenting
and petitioning for several organizations may be possible (may need to
coordinate).



If you can talk with any journalists you know that could help raise this
issue in public discussion ? that could also help make the impact, even
regardless of WHO?s operations, even just to increase publicity for
biomedical aging research.



Thanks. Yours,

Ilia



On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
wrote:

> Thank you, Ilia. I submitted a simple statement that may be helpful for
> others to use:
>
> "Please revise to include the issue of aging and aging-related ill health."
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear friends,
>>
>>
>>
>> I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for
>> aging care and research.
>>
>>
>>
>> It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
>> Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
>> and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
>> within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
>> Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
>> persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
>> development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
>> health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
>> health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
>> health care and health research!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>
>>
>>
>> Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft Work
>> Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
>> Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
>> important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
>> increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
>> are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
>> could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place until
>> November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles. Thank you for
>> your action!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>
>>
>>
>> In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
>> Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
>> global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
>> of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
>> of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
>> among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>>
>>
>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>
>> On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens Movement
>> (Israel)
>>
>> http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>
>> Longevity for All
>>
>> www.longevityforall.org/
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>
>>
>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>> http://isoad.org
>>
>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
>> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>
>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>
>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>
>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>
>> Skype: iliastam
>>
>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 03:46:42 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:46:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Pathfinder Moonshot
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMt8+ijXPnTqGsQzxoLTxdvLGCthLZJuAw8eDMAbjpQCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMt8+ijXPnTqGsQzxoLTxdvLGCthLZJuAw8eDMAbjpQCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0e5Cjpm2Fi9+fuAJmDsKc4c2Nkq0Ds+Kjy5etM6utUrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> --------Heads up to John Clark----------
> Glad to be back John, and glad you're still here. One of the best of the Exi list.  I've always appreciated your uncompromising rigor.
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
?Stop Jeff?

?I'm blushing!?

 I presume you guys have been alert, and noticed the thorium molten-salt
> reactor(TMSR) business.


?Yes, I think its nuts how little attention ?

?LFTR technology gets, the implications are huge. And there is another
breakthrough involving thorium that has nothing to do with power
generation,
 Thorium-229
? has the potential to serve at the timing element for a nuclear clock that
would be far more accurate than the atomic clocks we use today; with a GPS
system based on a Thorium nuclear clock you could easily know your position
to a fraction of an inch verses several feet with the current GPS, it would
be so good the navy could use it to land jets on aircraft carriers
automatically. And it could also measure very very small changes in the
gravitational field because the stronger the gravity the slower the clock,
and that would let you make detailed underground maps. There is a small
organization called Nuclock trying to build such a clock:     ?

https://www.nuclock.eu/


By the way have you considered what? implications a Quantum Computer would
have on crypto currency?

John K Clark



>
>
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 05:40:02 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 07:40:02 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cta] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please
	react!
In-Reply-To: <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBiFhLsiRPMk_-W4RM0oSmF050Nj7h_OPMSUMpCs1gCQ+A@mail.gmail.com>

Just to add. We do need to increase publicity about this outrageous issue
of the exclusion of aging health from the draft WHO work program. For
example, the facebook post below reached over 30,000 people. But generally,
the coverage of this global scandal has been next to zero. So in case you
did not yet, please do respond to the WHO consultation (in the second link
below, until Nov. 15). Please demand that aging health is included into the
WHO work program. If possible please engage journalists, bloggers, high
officials that you know. It will be a shame if aging is excluded from the
WHO work program. For one, it will tell the governments that aging is not
an issue. And practically, many existing and future health care and health
research programs on aging can be eliminated. Thanks for your action.

https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764?pnref=story
<https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764>

http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
<https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fabout%2Fgpw-thirteen-consultation%2Fen%2F&h=ATPIJgUPjFZiE2WO2JbZSd4BYafBW8xYHIRu2kjp0Mf9m3KpZnDncCalXZHs75c5eguWDTsWqmUc39jEW0tVArES9EOFXmwpzy_gzLrtTpYQa5nHACFGrBd-HhULCxp1SF5j0-qzkYX295vnwJXGNbDXuvc2Olbmsjy5e6m744oiHlghkUirGEXLEfxTpLrzkNYhT7F9MRDvM4Ss4tg2vPnU8slOJDgmJbe2MlwIGw25FPMhZ10Sx18F40YHIQ08OadMSID5_yI8jMH8VM3a-ucjYE4Z1MnD4A>

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you Lincoln!
>
>
>
> Here I prepared a statement for the consultation, on behalf of our
> organization ? the Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
> Movement (Israel).
>
>
>
> Please see the link:
>
> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-
> and-goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-
> population-into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>
>
>
> It is summarized in the title: *Include specific tasks and goals to
> improve health of the global aging population into the WHO 13th General
> Programme of Work (GPW13).*
>
>
>
> The statement is short, but not very short, as I believe should be a
> statement on behalf of an organization. But I do encourage you to make
> statements of any length, individually and/or on behalf of your
> organizations! It could be a thorough analysis or just a statement like
> ?The WHO should care for the health of the aged. Please include the issues
> of aged health into the WHO work program?.
>
>
> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>
>
>
> You are welcome to reuse any of the statements in our appeal, and/or
> create your own (perhaps better to have multiple voices). Also joint
> commenting and petitioning for several organizations may be possible (may
> need to coordinate).
>
>
>
> If you can talk with any journalists you know that could help raise this
> issue in public discussion ? that could also help make the impact, even
> regardless of WHO?s operations, even just to increase publicity for
> biomedical aging research.
>
>
>
> Thanks. Yours,
>
> Ilia
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Ilia. I submitted a simple statement that may be helpful for
>> others to use:
>>
>> "Please revise to include the issue of aging and aging-related ill
>> health."
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for
>>> aging care and research.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
>>> Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
>>> and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
>>> within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
>>> Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
>>> persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
>>> development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
>>> health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
>>> health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
>>> health care and health research!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft Work
>>> Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
>>> Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
>>> important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
>>> increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
>>> are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
>>> could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place until
>>> November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles. Thank you
>>> for your action!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
>>> Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
>>> global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
>>> of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
>>> of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
>>> among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>
>>> On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>> Movement (Israel)
>>>
>>> http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>
>>> Longevity for All
>>>
>>> www.longevityforall.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>
>>>
>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>>> http://isoad.org
>>>
>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association
>>> ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>
>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>
>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>
>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>
>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>
>
> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
> http://isoad.org
>
> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>
> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>
> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>
>
>
> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>
> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>
> Skype: iliastam
>
> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>



-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From zoielsoy at gmail.com  Mon Nov 13 22:31:33 2017
From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 17:31:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Pathfinder Moonshot
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0e5Cjpm2Fi9+fuAJmDsKc4c2Nkq0Ds+Kjy5etM6utUrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMt8+ijXPnTqGsQzxoLTxdvLGCthLZJuAw8eDMAbjpQCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0e5Cjpm2Fi9+fuAJmDsKc4c2Nkq0Ds+Kjy5etM6utUrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALHxhTQqcwQhMtYYFK8EgWSrk3csvZMYnuyS8gL31ghWdxEkPA@mail.gmail.com>

How do we invest in this technology? in other words how do I give them my
money!?

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:46 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> --------Heads up to John Clark----------
>> Glad to be back John, and glad you're still here. One of the best of the Exi list.  I've always appreciated your uncompromising rigor.
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>>
> ?Stop Jeff?
>
> ?I'm blushing!?
>
>  I presume you guys have been alert, and noticed the thorium molten-salt
>> reactor(TMSR) business.
>
>
> ?Yes, I think its nuts how little attention ?
>
> ?LFTR technology gets, the implications are huge. And there is another
> breakthrough involving thorium that has nothing to do with power
> generation,
>  Thorium-229
> ? has the potential to serve at the timing element for a nuclear clock
> that would be far more accurate than the atomic clocks we use today; with a
> GPS system based on a Thorium nuclear clock you could easily know your
> position to a fraction of an inch verses several feet with the current GPS,
> it would be so good the navy could use it to land jets on aircraft carriers
> automatically. And it could also measure very very small changes in the
> gravitational field because the stronger the gravity the slower the clock,
> and that would let you make detailed underground maps. There is a small
> organization called Nuclock trying to build such a clock:     ?
>
> https://www.nuclock.eu/
>
>
> By the way have you considered what? implications a Quantum Computer would
> have on crypto currency?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 14 18:23:41 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:23:41 -0800
Subject: [ExI] can a potus pop one?
Message-ID: <001a01d35d75$b38b3d40$1aa1b7c0$@att.net>

Since this has been debated at length on this forum, here's the WT's take on
it:

 

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/14/military-can-question-trump
-launch-nuclear-weapons/?utm_source=onesignal
<https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/nov/14/military-can-question-trum
p-launch-nuclear-weapons/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_campaign=pushnotify&utm_m
edium=push> &utm_campaign=pushnotify&utm_medium=push

 

Oy vey.

 

Do let us behave ourselves with this topic please.

 

spike

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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 14 23:32:02 2017
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:32:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Pathfinder Moonshot
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkOWPNhtk4y6zipyNJ-DSwckCuMsf+SFESBJhDPuZ-9PVA@mail.gmail.com>

John Clark asks:

By the way have you considered what implications a Quantum Computer would have
on crypto currency?

                                ****************************************

Yes, John, I have, but I'm not qualified to speculate.  I realize that
quantum computers should theoretically make the breaking of classical
encryption far easier, easy even.  Hopefully, before that jeopardizes the
property records of the planet, something like what this paper discusses
will intervene to save the day.

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2017/09/quantum-bitcoin-qbitcoin-online-quantum-cash.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29

Best, Jeff Davis

      "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                         Ray Charles
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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Nov 17 05:10:51 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:10:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The prodigal son returns -- Pathfinder
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1510336136.11103.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.32.1510336136.11103.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <c0c40dc20a56feace4f7eafc433916f1.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Gail's step-sister, who has control issues, insisted that we must take
> our money out of the exchange and put it in our own hard wallet, for
> security reasons, lest the Exchange be hacked. I gave it some thought,
> asked myself who has better security, me at the house, or the exchange
> with millions of dollars in Revenue per day on the line?   I decided to go
> with the exchange. Coinbase. We do have a hard wallet but we haven't used
> it yet.

Welcome back, Jeff, and congratulations on your prosperity. Just a word to
the wise, I used your very same rationale of using a well-known high
reputation supposedly very secure bitcoin exchange to store my 120 BTC.

That exchange was MTGOX and I lost everything except for a bankruptcy
claim. I won't bore you with the details but if I had to do it all over
again, I would have stored 1/3 of my stash in an Electrum wallet, 1/3 on
the exchange, and 1/3 in a paper wallet, i.e. bitcoin address and private
key written on a piece of paper and stored in a bank safe deposit box.

Just my two cents. Good luck in your new Moonshot venture. :-)

Stuart LaForge




From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Nov 17 04:32:21 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:32:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Dark energy = (anti)gravity?
Message-ID: <607e04c74337cbe12f8f7a9efd6cf0b2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

On Mon, November 6, John Clark wrote:

>>> All paths leading up to the first instant of time are equally invalid
>>> because there were none.
>> How do you know that?

> ?Are you asking how I know the first is the first??

How do you know there was a first moment of time? Signed integers have the
same cardinality as the natural numbers. You can start counting anywhere
and you will still count forever. But that's just aleph-0, and spacetime
is aleph-1. There's literally no place to start counting because it would
take an infinite amount of computing power just to distinguish between
zero and the first real number.

Of course you can just pick a point and arbitrarily call it zero and then
use math to model the continuum. And that's pretty much what cosmologists
have done. They call T=0 the big bang. But the continuum doesn't really
end or begin *anywhere*.

> ?That is incorrect. There is ?
> universal agreement ? on the spacetime distance between ?2 events but there
> is no universal agreement ? on the spacial distance between the 2 events
> nor is there agreement on the time interval between the 2 events or even
> agreement on if event X happened before Y or Y happened before X.

If any observer can use that space-time interval to calculate what any
other observer sees, that is in effect, universal agreement. If Einstein
and Feynmann synchronized their watches and then climbed into identical
rocket ships with identical maps to travel around the galaxy, as long as
they maintain a radar fix on one another, they would know exactly what
time was displayed on the other's watch without having to communicate.

If that is not universal agreement, then what is?

>> All events equidistant from the observer that lie in the hyperplane will
>>  ? ?
>> occur simultaneously

> ?That is not universal agreement. Yes you can always find 2 observers
> that agree, but I can always find one that doesn't, in fact I can find an
> infinite number of them.

Yes. That's the point. You can find an infinite number of observers for
whom event 0 happened at the same time as event 1, an infinite number
where event  0 happened before event 1, and an infinite number for whom
event 1 happened *before* event 0. But those who disagree on which
happened first can't ever communicate with one another, though, because
they are in different causal cells.


>> Under the assumption that we are the stationary observer,

> ?Would an observer in the Coma Cluster be willing to make that
> assumption? Why are we more important than him even from his point of
> view??

Not at all, because there are no privileged points on the continuum. But
if he understood that space-time was infinite, Coma Cluster guy would
understand that no matter where you are on the continuum, it stretches on
forever in every direction thus giving an observer the appearence of being
in the center of everything.

>> ?> ?
>> then our ? ?
>> measurement of 13.8 billion years is the maximum observable age of the ?
>> ?
>> universe

> Perhaps so ?if the universe were to come to an end today. ?

You know that I meant elapsed time not duration. You are being pendantic.

>> and all the moving observers will measure a younger universe
>> whose clock is moving slower than theirs.

> ?If you and I are moving relative to each other I will see your clock
> moving slower than my clock and you will see my clock running slower than
> your clock. There is no contradiction in this because when we try to
> measure how long it takes for one of us to move between 2 points we don't
>  agree on when to start and stop the stopwatch. It's a good thing there
> isn't universal agreement on simultaneity, if there were physics would be
>  logically inconsistent.

I don't get it. How is this a problem for conservation of energy, my
theory, or an infinite universe? If anything, its a problem for big bang
cosmology and a "beginning" of the space-time continuum.

If there are always at least two observers for which energy is conserved,
then energy is thereby conserved. But there are an infinite number of
possible observers for which energy is conserved. Ergo energy is
conserved.

>> Of course, we can't actually be stationary relative to the big bang

> ?We can't be moving away from the spot where the Big Bang happened
> because it happened right here, ?it's just that the spot keeps getting
> bigger with time.

Then there must be places where the big bang has not yet happened. The
only other alternative is that it is simultaneously happening everywhere
at once, which it kinda is, but only for observers on a light-like
geodesic. But of course, presumably it is forbidden for observers with
mass to have a light -like geodesic.

None-the-less in an infinite universe, big bangs are as common as you are.
That is you are both infinite. Perhaps even of the same cardinality.

> ?I don't see what the point of that would be, we already know what we'd
> see through our telescopes, we'd both see a stopwatch running slower than
> our own. And if I am going south at half the speed of light and you are
> going north at half the speed of light and I watch you through my
> telescope measure the time it takes you to pass mile markers on the road I
> will see you write in your notebook the same figure that I do even though
> I see your
> stopwatch running slow, because from my viewpoint you started and stopped
> your stopwatch at the wrong times. We don't agree on simultaneity, we
> don't agree on the instant you passed the 2 mile markers.

Yes. I think our confusion lay in that what you consider a bug of
space-time, I consider a feature.

> If you bring the clocks together to find out which clock was *really*
> running slow the symmetry of the situation will be broken because one must
>  accelerate and one must not. If you accelerate back toward me you will
> see my clock running FASTER than your clock and I will see your clock
> running SLOWER than my clock. When you get back to the same place I'm at
> and we're moving at zero speed relative to each other we will both observe
> both clocks again running at the same rate but they will no longer be
> synchronized, we will agree that much more time has passed on my clock
> than your on clock because your clock was accelerating but mine was not.
> The same thing would happen if instead of accelerating you were in a
> stronger gravitational field than me.

But we would both agree on how much fuel you used to get here no matter
when you hit the accelerator or the brake. Which is what we are
discussing. The conservation of energy.

>> The way I am hypothesizing it happens is that everything we can see is
>> ? ?
>> inside a hollow sphere of infinite thickness and constant density and
>> thus ? ?
>> infinite mass. And so everything in the sphere is being gravitationally ?
>> ?
>> pulled to the closest part of the sphere because the infinite mass of
>> the ? ?
>> universe is just a little closer in that direction.
>>
>
> ?Infinite
> thickness? Be careful, there Be Dragons.

"Dragons"? LOL, I'll say. On one hand, I have Newton and Gauss predicting
exactly zero gravitational field. While on the other hand, I have Einstein
and Feynmann, as you kindly demonstrate below, predicting an infinite
gravitational field. All the while, I am trying to navigate between these
giants with a small but finite gravitational field. I am exploring a
potential mathematical model for this so I will report more on this later.

I feel a little bit like Oddyseus at the Strait of Messina, only he was
trying to get home. While I am just on a pleasure cruise. :-)

> If I'm standing on the inner or
> outer surface of a sphere with an ?i
> nfinite radius ? ?
> the surfaces ? ?
> will both look the same to me, ? ?
> they ? ?
> will look like I'm standing on a infinitely flat infinity large plane, and
>  the gravitational acceleration produced by such a plane is 2*?*G*D*H, ? ?
>  where G is the gravitational constant, D is the density and H is the
> thickness of the plane. A derivation of this formula can be found in
> volume 1 of The Feynman Lectures On Physics, in section 13-4 called
> "Gravitational
> field of large objects". ? ?

Thanks for the analysis.

> And even if the sphere is not infinite but just astronomically large
> I don't see how
> ?that idea
> can explain why the universe was decelerating for the first 9 billion
> years of its existence and only started accelerating 5 billion years ago.

It's because the rate of expansion of space-time in our causal cell is
linked to the rate of matter creation in our causal cell. But they balance
each other out because the negative energy of that all that curved
space-time exactly cancels out all the positive mass-energy. Whenever the
creation rate of matter changes, the expansion rate of space-time must
change to compensate.

> It's
> also odd that the Earth happens to be at a very untypical place, the
> center of a infinite sphere. It all seems a bit too Ptolemaic.  ?

Again, there is no center to the infinite continuum none-the-less the
continuum looks exactly the same in every direction from every point and
any point can be designated zero. You, right now in your home, are no more
or less special than the big bang.

> ?I don't insist on matter being conserved but not energy, but for the
> last 20 years we've have lots of empirical evidence that the universe does
>  insist on exactly that. As to why the universe prefers things that way
> you'll have to ask the universe not me.

But the mass-energy equivalence principle makes that paradoxical. If you
can convert matter into energy and vice-versa, then that means that matter
cannot be conserved or energy must be conserved. You can't have it both
ways. That matter and negative energy balance out is the only way to
resolve that paradox.

Any theory that would simultaneously claim that matter and energy are
interconvertible but that matter is conserved while energy is not is
logically inconsistent.

>> Both Hawking radiation and radioactive decay are adding particles to
>> the ? ?
>> universe.

> So what? That in no way changes the fact that as the universe expands the
>  mass of matter in the universe, both dark and regular, becomes more and
> more diluted but Dark Energy does not because unlike matter Dark Energy
> is a property of space itself.

Forget the mass of matter for a second. Think about gravitational mass
density of space-time which includes everything, including dark energy,
baked right in.

If the number of particles increases, and their rest masses are conserved,
i.e. they broke apart, then the negative energy of the universe is
increased and the universe thereby "weighs" more. The simple fact that
more particles mean more possible distances those particles can have
relative to one another. directly expands space-time while simultaneously
increasing the mass of the system. Or even decreasing actually because I
am not certain of the appropriate sign.

Perhaps you can clear something up for me that is a source of confusion on
my part. Why is the negative energy density of dark energy i.e. negative
pressure or tension assigned a positive mass such that it accounts for 68%
of the universe's mass?


> ?True
> , when 3 protons fuse they produce 4 particles, a positron a neutrino a
> gamma ray and a Helium-3 nucleus, but the number of particles is
> irrelevant from a cosmological perspective, but the total mass/energy is
> not and the fusion process does not change that.

I am suggesting it is not irrelevant. 4 particles far apart bend spacetime
differently than 3 particles close together. They also have more
gravitational connections and the potential energy of a multiparticle
system increases on the order of n^2-n for an n particle system.

The particles are essentially nodes on a completely connected graph and
the potential energy terms you are summing over are essentially the edges
of that graph. That increased potential energy *has* mass although it
could be negative depending on how you choose to define it.

>> when one considers photons and neutrinos as ? ?
>> particles, it is clear that fusion too increases the particle number of
>> the universe.
>>
>
> ?Fusion or no fusion the mass/energy content of the hydrogen remans
> constant,

Is that because interstellar hydrogen constitute the vast majority of
hydrogen in our causal cell so the rate of change is neglible in your
opinion even on a cosmic timescale? Or because new hydrogen is constantly
being created to fill the vaccuum?

> ?Hawking radiation or no Hawking radiation the mass/energy
> content of a Black Hole remans constant; but as the universe expands the
> mass/energy content of Dark Energy does NOT remain constant.

Are you suggesting that black holes don't evaporate? Or that they do so
too slowly to be relevant?

Incidently, I have been contemplating your 1 nanojoule per cubic meter
figure for dark energy. If that figure is true, why did there ever need to
be matter in the first place? An empty universe could have just as easily
appeared in a "Big Poof" and expanded from there out to a maximum limit of
about 12.7 billion light years at which point it would reach its
Schwarzschild radius and become a black hole halting its own expansion.

Obviously this is not what we observe. Which makes sense, since space is
literally the distance between particles of matter just as the continuum
is the interval between mathematical points. Particles of matter are
therefore special "points" in space just like the integers are special
points in the real number line.

>
>> So if the number of particles is increasing and they have relative
>> ? ?
>> velocities and therefore kinetic energy, it is clear that the mass of
>> the universe must be increasing.
>
>
> ?No that is not clear at all. The number of neutrinos is certainly
> increasing but as they have AT LEAST 45 billion times less mass than a
> proton that fact is not very important.  ? The mass of matter is not
> increasing, ? the amount of Dark Energy is.?

But a system composed of 45 billion neutrinos at a distance attracting one
another gravitationally weigh significantly more (or perhaps less if
negative mass is real) than a proton does. This change in mass-energy due
to the gravitational field cannot be neglected on cosmic scales.

>
>> But if energy is conserved
>> ? [...]?

> On a cosmological scale energy is not conserved in a expanding
> accelerating Einsteinian ?
> ?universe.

A flat or negatively curved infinite universe can expand and even
accelerate indefinitely. If it is flat, then Freidmann demonstrated that
Einstein's theory predicts that energy is conserved.

If energy is conserved, then dark energy is just the baseline or residual
gravity of an infinite universe pulling outward because it is trying to
pull everything toward the center of mass of the universe. A universe,
mind you, that has no center.

It explains so much with so few assumptions and fits the data so why
couldn't it be true?

> For
>  example, some have proposed getting rid of Dark Matter by modifying the
> laws of gravity, but no modification can explain galaxy ? ?
> Dragonfly 44.

Dark matter clearly exists but it is not some exotic particle not in the
standard model. Dark matter is probably black holes, again matter behind
an event horizon and therefore outside our causal cell. If LIGO's success
at detecting their collisions is any indication, they are far more common
then we think they are. They might sheppherd stars in a galactic disk the
way that the moons of Saturn shepherd its ring.

> From the motion of stars and the orbits of globular clusters
>  in orbit around ? ?
> it we know that ? ?
> Dragonfly 44
> has about the same mass as our galaxy, a trillion solar masses, and yet
>  Dragonfly 44
> has little gas or dust and less than 1% as many stars as the Milky Way
> does, it is one of a new class of objects called "dark galaxies". Unless
> there is no universal law of gravity at all because it works differently
> in dark galaxies than in normal galaxies like ours the only conclusion is
> that 99.99% of the matter in
> Dragonfly 44
> must be dark verses only 88% for the Milky Way.

Maybe Dragonfly is a galaxy primarily composed of black holes. A gigantic
swarm of black holes could easily have hoovered up all the dust leaving
nothing left for star formation. I am actually surprised entire galaxies
of black holes aren't more common.

>> The acceleration of the universe is just the curvature of spacetime in
>> the ? ?
>> outward direction caused by the mass density in all the other causal ? ?
>> cells. Come on, acceleration, curvature, and gravity are all synonomous.
>>
>
> ?But we now know that mass alone can not explain the large scale shape of
>  spacetime, and even mass and pressure is not sufficient to do so because
>  ?tension caused by Dark Energy is also a factor, and in fact the most
> important factor.

In a Dark Energy-dominated universe what's the point of having any matter
at all? How do you even make sense of spacetime without matter? I mean an
invariant spacetime interval has to have endpoints and those endpoints are
particles of matter.

>> Where is the evidence that the universe has been decreasing in density?

> ?The evidence has been known since 2003. For the first 9 Billion years of
>  its existence the expansion of the universe was slowing down, but about
> 5
> billion years ago that changed and it started to speed up because the
> amount of matter (both dark and non-dark) that was trying to slow thins
> down became more dilute as space expanded but the amount of Dark Energy
> trying to speed things up did not become more dilute due to the fact that
>  Dark Energy is a property of space itself.
> http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1086/383612/meta

Thanks for the article, dense but good read, but I don't get why you think
it invalidates my contention that we have no evidence whether the
universe' density is rising, falling, or remaining constant. Our causal
cell's density  could be falling while the density of the universe as an
infinite whole is rising. We don't know what's going on.

Moreover the paper supports my theory. In fact my model is clearly
depicted in Figure 8 as that straight line at omega-total  = 1. Which
which clearly lies within their tightest (68%) confidence interval.

> ?The number of particles is irrelevant, the total mass of all those
> particles is not and that total mass of matter remains constant, but the
> amount of space those particles can be in is not constant if space is
> expanding so mass is becoming more dilute. And if Dark Energy is a
> property of space itself then it is not becoming more dilute as space
> expands. ?Matter tries to slow the expansion and Dark Energy tries to
> speed it up, for 9 billion years matter won that tug of war but then it
> just got too dilute 5 billion years ago and Dark Energy started to win.

The number of particles *is* relevant. The gravitational field stores
energy. A diffuse system of particles should weigh more than a dense
system of those same particles because the work that was done to get them
there has mass. A single particle splitting into constituent particles is
in effect making a dense system a diffuse one which requires work, which
increases mass.


>
> ?Curved 4D spacetime can be defined without the need for a fifth
> dimension or anything else for it to curve into. Curved spacetime just
> means the Euclidian distance formula, aka the Pythagorean Theorem, will
> not work there but Einstein provided a distance formula that will.

I already said my Theory of Causal Cells does not require any more than
four dimensions. What your point?

>> What's outside of our light-cone? Literally almost *everything*.

> ?Maybe everything maybe nothing, it's outside our light-cone so we can
> never know. ?

But with gravity you can detect things you can't see. It's how we detected
the planet Neptune by how it perturbed the orbit of Uranus and were able
to predict where to point our telescopes. Good thing Urbain Le Verrier
didn't just throw his hands up in the air and claim it was "dark energy".

Stuart LaForge




From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Fri Nov 17 13:48:53 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:48:53 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cta] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please
	react!
In-Reply-To: <CAJbwcBiFhLsiRPMk_-W4RM0oSmF050Nj7h_OPMSUMpCs1gCQ+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBiFhLsiRPMk_-W4RM0oSmF050Nj7h_OPMSUMpCs1gCQ+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBjnVwjgj91gTFr2RTbU5W3necubePCe66zQzg3rMp+COw@mail.gmail.com>

Just an update.



Please note that the deadline for the WHO public consultation was extended
until Nov. 23. So more people can be involved, well up to the meeting of
the WHO executive board on Nov. 22-23. Please keep demanding, in the link
below, that WHO includes aging health, including biomedical R&D on aging,
into its Work Program (where this topic is currently absent?.)



http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



In addition to responding to the consultation, please help spread the word
? share, forward, post, contact journalists, officials.


And here are also some points that could be mentioned. Thank you!



http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/





Ilia

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
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On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 7:40 AM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Just to add. We do need to increase publicity about this outrageous issue
> of the exclusion of aging health from the draft WHO work program. For
> example, the facebook post below reached over 30,000 people. But generally,
> the coverage of this global scandal has been next to zero. So in case you
> did not yet, please do respond to the WHO consultation (in the second link
> below, until Nov. 15). Please demand that aging health is included into the
> WHO work program. If possible please engage journalists, bloggers, high
> officials that you know. It will be a shame if aging is excluded from the
> WHO work program. For one, it will tell the governments that aging is not
> an issue. And practically, many existing and future health care and health
> research programs on aging can be eliminated. Thanks for your action.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/
> 1466226320080764?pnref=story
> <https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764>
>
> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
> <https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fabout%2Fgpw-thirteen-consultation%2Fen%2F&h=ATPIJgUPjFZiE2WO2JbZSd4BYafBW8xYHIRu2kjp0Mf9m3KpZnDncCalXZHs75c5eguWDTsWqmUc39jEW0tVArES9EOFXmwpzy_gzLrtTpYQa5nHACFGrBd-HhULCxp1SF5j0-qzkYX295vnwJXGNbDXuvc2Olbmsjy5e6m744oiHlghkUirGEXLEfxTpLrzkNYhT7F9MRDvM4Ss4tg2vPnU8slOJDgmJbe2MlwIGw25FPMhZ10Sx18F40YHIQ08OadMSID5_yI8jMH8VM3a-ucjYE4Z1MnD4A>
>
> On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Lincoln!
>>
>>
>>
>> Here I prepared a statement for the consultation, on behalf of our
>> organization ? the Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>> Movement (Israel).
>>
>>
>>
>> Please see the link:
>>
>> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-
>> goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-
>> into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>>
>>
>>
>> It is summarized in the title: *Include specific tasks and goals to
>> improve health of the global aging population into the WHO 13th General
>> Programme of Work (GPW13).*
>>
>>
>>
>> The statement is short, but not very short, as I believe should be a
>> statement on behalf of an organization. But I do encourage you to make
>> statements of any length, individually and/or on behalf of your
>> organizations! It could be a thorough analysis or just a statement like
>> ?The WHO should care for the health of the aged. Please include the issues
>> of aged health into the WHO work program?.
>>
>>
>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>
>>
>>
>> You are welcome to reuse any of the statements in our appeal, and/or
>> create your own (perhaps better to have multiple voices). Also joint
>> commenting and petitioning for several organizations may be possible (may
>> need to coordinate).
>>
>>
>>
>> If you can talk with any journalists you know that could help raise this
>> issue in public discussion ? that could also help make the impact, even
>> regardless of WHO?s operations, even just to increase publicity for
>> biomedical aging research.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. Yours,
>>
>> Ilia
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Ilia. I submitted a simple statement that may be helpful for
>>> others to use:
>>>
>>> "Please revise to include the issue of aging and aging-related ill
>>> health."
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for
>>>> aging care and research.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
>>>> Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
>>>> and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
>>>> within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
>>>> Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
>>>> persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
>>>> development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
>>>> health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
>>>> health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
>>>> health care and health research!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft Work
>>>> Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
>>>> Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
>>>> important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
>>>> increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
>>>> are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
>>>> could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place until
>>>> November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles. Thank you
>>>> for your action!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
>>>> Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
>>>> global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
>>>> of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
>>>> of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
>>>> among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>
>>>> On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>>> Movement (Israel)
>>>>
>>>> http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>>
>>>> Longevity for All
>>>>
>>>> www.longevityforall.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease -
>>>> ISOAD http://isoad.org
>>>>
>>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association
>>>> ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>>
>>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>>
>>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>>
>>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>>
>>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>
>>
>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>> http://isoad.org
>>
>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
>> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>
>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>
>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>
>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>
>> Skype: iliastam
>>
>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>
>
> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
> http://isoad.org
>
> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>
> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>
> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>
>
>
> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>
> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>
> Skype: iliastam
>
> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>



-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 17 21:41:27 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:41:27 -0800
Subject: [ExI] robot doing back flips
Message-ID: <016201d35fec$d31cd8c0$79568a40$@att.net>

 

Tokyo Dynamics robot doing back flip.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68F-UUU_Ff4

 

Remember how the Robot Olympics went just three years ago?

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Nov 17 22:44:40 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 14:44:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] head transplant to be attempted in china
Message-ID: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/11/17/italian-doctor-says-wor
lds-first-human-head-transplant-imminent/847288001/

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 00:56:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:56:41 -0600
Subject: [ExI] head transplant to be attempted in china
In-Reply-To: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>
References: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYGbybSivHowoipd0JG+w8Oqr4Pmjki3_EsX5wQY9bw0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 4:44 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/11/17/
> italian-doctor-says-worlds-first-human-head-transplant-imminent/847288001/
>

?I'm game for this.  Only way to get rid of this backache that I've heard
of.  bill w?

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Nov 18 03:50:43 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 19:50:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] head transplant to be attempted in china
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYGbybSivHowoipd0JG+w8Oqr4Pmjki3_EsX5wQY9bw0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEYGbybSivHowoipd0JG+w8Oqr4Pmjki3_EsX5wQY9bw0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003e01d36020$69bbed60$3d33c820$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] head transplant to be attempted in china

 

 

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 4:44 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

  

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/11/17/italian-doctor-says-worlds-first-human-head-transplant-imminent/847288001/

 

?>?I'm game for this.  Only way to get rid of this backache that I've heard of.  bill w?

 

Ja!  And the other guy gets rid of his migraines.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

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From cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com  Sat Nov 18 04:11:38 2017
From: cetico.iconoclasta at gmail.com (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 02:11:38 -0200
Subject: [ExI] head transplant to be attempted in china
In-Reply-To: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>
References: <01ae01d35ff5$a835f110$f8a1d330$@att.net>
Message-ID: <fb5fe642-0ebc-2d5d-698c-87d87b875ba3@gmail.com>

I never liked the term 'head transplant'. I think full body transplant 
would be more appropriate

On 17/11/2017 20:44, spike wrote:
>
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/11/17/italian-doctor-says-worlds-first-human-head-transplant-imminent/847288001/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov 19 03:27:18 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 22:27:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Dark energy = (anti)gravity?
In-Reply-To: <607e04c74337cbe12f8f7a9efd6cf0b2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <607e04c74337cbe12f8f7a9efd6cf0b2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3wBb_tKvw-vtP1xf-HxwtqAG1y=kFj-g6Sw_-s4rB-Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:


> ?> ?
> How do you know there was a first moment of time?


?I don't know that, but I do know if there was a first moment of time then
it would be silly to talk about paths leading up to it.?



> ?> ?
> If any observer can use that space-time interval to calculate what any
> ? ?
> other observer sees, that is in effect, universal agreement.


?So if I say your clock is running ?
?slow and you say my clock is running slow we are in agreement? Which event
do we agree happened first, event X or event Y?? At the end of the day do
we both agree that I turned out to be wrong or do we both agree that you
turned out to be wrong?

>
?> ?
> If that is not universal agreement,


?It isn't.?

?> ?
> then what is?
>

?We both agree that your clock was running slower than mine. And that is
what would happen if you revered your velocity and came back and we placed
the two clocks side by side and we both looked at them.

?> ?
> But those who disagree on which
> ? ?
> happened first can't ever communicate with one another, though, because
> they are in different causal cells.
>

?No, we were never moving faster than light so we can communicate again.
We're both moving apart and we both see the other person's clock running
slow, but then you turn around and come back and now we're back at the same
place and we're not moving with respect to each other anymore and we both
find that our two clocks do not agree, we both agree your clock ran slow,
mine says 3 o'clock but yours says 2 o'clock. There is no paradox because
the symmetry has been broken, you accelerated but I did not, if you're
accelerating (or equivalently in a strong gravitational field) you will see
my clock running fast and I will see your clock running slow.


> ?> ?
> If there are always at least two observers for which energy is conserved
> ? [....]?
>

?When looking at the largest scale no observer will ever see energy
conserved in a accelerating universe.?



>
> ?> ?
> there must be places where the big bang has not yet happened.


?Places? The Big Bang was the origin of places, before the Big Bang there
were no places, at least not in our observable universe.


> ?> ?
> The
> ? ?
> only other alternative is that it is simultaneously happening everywhere
>

?
If the Big Bang was the beginning of time then it was simultaneous because
no other time existed when it could have happened, and it happened
everywhere because it was the beginning of space so there was no other
place it could have happened.


> ?> ?
> in an infinite universe, big bangs are as common as you are.
>

?Yes I agree, but if they exist those places

?really are causally disconnected from us. ?

?> ?
> But we would both agree on how much fuel you used to get here no matter
> ? ?
> when you hit the accelerator or the brake. Which is what we are
> ? ?
> discussing. The conservation of energy.
>

?The conservation of energy still ?works fine at small scales, a million
light years or so, but not at cosmological distances.



> ?>> ?
>> why the universe was decelerating for the first 9 billion
>> ?
>> years of its existence and only started accelerating 5 billion years ago.
>
>
> ?> ?
> It's because the rate of expansion of space-time in our causal cell is
> ?
> linked to the rate of matter creation in our causal cell. But they balance
> ?
> each other out because
> ?
> the negative energy of that all that curved
> ?
> space-time exactly cancels out all the positive mass-energy.


?But things are not balanced ?out and never have been, if they were the
universe would be expanding at a constant rate but instead it was slowing
down for the first 9 billion years and then sped up for the next 5 billion.
And that what you'd expect if matter, which wants to slow things down, was
becoming more dilute as more space was created but Dark Energy, which wants
to speed things up, was not becoming more dilute because it is a property
of space itself.


>
>> ?> ?
>> I don't insist on matter being conserved but not energy, but for the last
>> 20 years we've have lots of empirical evidence that the universe does
>> ? ?
>> insist on exactly that. As to why the universe prefers things that way
>> ? ?
>> you'll have to ask the universe not me.
>
>
> ?> ?
> But the mass-energy equivalence principle makes that paradoxical. If you
> ? ?
> can convert matter into energy and vice-versa, then that means that matter
> ? ?
> cannot be conserved or energy must be conserved. You can't have it both
> ? ?
> ways.


Water and steam can be converted from one to the other but that doesn't
mean the laws of physics treat the two things the same way. Einstein said
matter and energy can be converted from one to the other but he certainly
did not say they always are converted or that the two things
?are ?
identical. The amount of matter in the universe, both dark and regular, has
remained almost constant since the Big Bang, but the amount of Dark Energy
has increased
?
and its increased by a lot
?. The amount of matter and Dark energy has changed and that's
why
? the expansion the expansion rate has also changed.

?> ?
> If the number of particles increases, and their rest masses are conserved,
>

?Then each individual particle must have less mass than before.  ?


> ?> ?
> Why is the negative energy density of dark energy i.e. negative
> ?
> pressure or tension assigned a positive mass such that it accounts for 68%
> ?
> of the universe's mass?
>

We know that there is about 5 times more Dark Matter? than regular matter
and we know that all matter has mass or it wouldn't be matter. Energy has
no rest mass but matter does and that means it takes energy to accelerate
it, and something is accelerating all that matter and the energy required
to do that would be about twice as much as energy equivalent of all that
matter, dark and regular combined.


>  when 3 protons fuse they produce 4 particles, a positron a neutrino a
> ?
>  gamma ray and a Helium-3 nucleus, but the number of particles is
> ?
> irrelevant from a cosmological perspective, but the total mass/energy is

 not and the fusion process does not change that.


> ?> ?
> I am suggesting it is not irrelevant. 4 particles far apart bend spacetime
> ?
> differently than 3 particles close together.


?The 4 particles bend spacetime less than the 3 particles did because there
is less mass, the gamma ray has no rest mass but it took rest mass to
create it in the fusion process.  ?


?> ?
> A flat or negatively curved infinite universe can expand and even
> ? ?
> accelerate indefinitely.


?It can expand ?
indefinitely
? but you can't deduce acceleration from geometry alone, you need energy
for that. ?


> ?> ?
> If it is flat, then Freidmann demonstrated that
> ? ?
> Einstein's theory predicts that energy is conserved.
>

??
And Freidmann did not predict a
?n?
accelerating universe nor did anyone else, it came as a great shock to
everyone, its still not understood worth a damn and that's why its called
dark. It's been known for a long time from the laws of Quantum Mechanics
that empty space should have energy, but the calculated value was HUGE,
about 10^120 times larger than what we actually see. If it were really that
big the universe would blow itself apart a nanosecond after the Big Bang.
Physicists weren't too worried about that because they figured eventually
they'd figure out a way to cancel things out and the true value
?would be?
 zero. But now with the discovery of a accelerating universe they must
figure out how to cancel everything out EXCEPT for one part in 10^120, a
far more difficult task.
? Dark Energy is the greatest mystery in physics, even stranger than Dark
Matter.?


> ?> ?
> Dark matter is probably black holes


?That would be my best guess too but I could be wrong.?


?> ?
> In a Dark Energy-dominated universe what's the point of having any matter
> at all?


?I don't think the universe has a point, but people do.?


?> ?
> The number of particles *is* relevant. The gravitational field stores
> ?
> energy.


?It can convert kinetic energy to potential, but in fusion the kinetic
energy itself had to come from someplace and that would be the rest mass of
the original particle, so I don't see the point of considering it.   ?


>  it's outside our light-cone so we can
>> ?
>> never know.
>
>
> But with gravity you can detect things you can't see.


?If something is outside our light cone it can't effect us and we can't
effect it, not by by gravity and not by anything else that moves at the
speed of light or less.?

?And everything moves at the speed of light or less.?


> It's how we detected
> ?
> the planet Neptune by how it perturbed the orbit of Uranus


?Neither Neptune nor Uranus is outside our light cone. And we can see
Neptune we just didn't know where to look.?

?

 John K Clark?



>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 03:04:51 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 22:04:51 -0500
Subject: [ExI] LIGO does it again
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2bH_MrYcGvAxNYNtT3gp+hSis7wsFYJaft+RW+O7dA1A@mail.gmail.com>

?LIGO announced they've detected ?another Black Hole merger. On June 7 2017
Black Holes of 7 and 12 solar masses collided producing a 18 solar mass
Black Hole and a solar mass of energy in the form of Gravitational Waves.
It happened a billion years ago and these are the smallest Black Holes that
LIGO has yet found.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1711.05578

By the way, Trump said he will not honor this years Nobel Prize winners by
inviting then to the White House that has long been traditional, and that
includes the people that invented LIGO.

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov 20 18:13:33 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 13:13:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] robot doing back flips
In-Reply-To: <016201d35fec$d31cd8c0$79568a40$@att.net>
References: <016201d35fec$d31cd8c0$79568a40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Yt+LNjTtufGvr8O12AoUWrHfoPc8GHwE8WMxA3YbpRw@mail.gmail.com>

Very cool
?!?

?And
 take a look at this, just a few days ago the head of Boston Dynamics
? gave a great demonstration of some of the companies latest robots. I
expect in the near future things like this will radically change ?economic
laws that have held true for a long time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FahbCJ330Vg

 John K Clark

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 4:41 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Tokyo Dynamics robot doing back flip.
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68F-UUU_Ff4
>
>
>
> Remember how the Robot Olympics went just three years ago?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Wed Nov 22 16:57:54 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 18:57:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cta] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please
	react!
In-Reply-To: <CAJbwcBjnVwjgj91gTFr2RTbU5W3necubePCe66zQzg3rMp+COw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBiFhLsiRPMk_-W4RM0oSmF050Nj7h_OPMSUMpCs1gCQ+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjnVwjgj91gTFr2RTbU5W3necubePCe66zQzg3rMp+COw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBiPwgSXoPm8c7sUb-M2DZbrHd0dbmwesFnc+zcw77QFrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Another update (apparently the last one in this batch, as the WHO
consultation and executive committee meeting end tomorrow - Nov. 23).
Toward the WHO meeting, a joint position statement has just been published,
entitled:



?Aging health and R&D for healthy longevity must be included into the WHO
Work Program?. *Aging and Disease*. 9(1):1-3, 2018. Available on line:



http://www.aginganddisease.org/EN/10.14336/AD.2017.1120



http://www.isoad.org/Data/View/745



The signatories include leaders of the International Society on Aging and
Disease (ISOAD), American Federation for Aging Research (AFAR),
International Federation on Ageing (IFA), International Association of
Gerontology and Geriatrics - IAGG (European Region and Asia-Oceania),
International Longevity Center - Australia, The Gerontological Society of
the Russian Academy of Sciences, African Society for Ageing Research and
Development (ASARD).



Welcome to reference this document in your advocacy efforts!



In case you have not yet done so, you can still respond to the WHO
consultation through November 23, demanding that aging health and R&D for
healthy longevity are included into the WHO work program. You can still
spread the word and increase publicity about this important issue! Many
thanks to everybody who already participated! I hope we succeed!



http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-
and-goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-
population-into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/



https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764?pnref=story



Thanks!


Ilia

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Just an update.
>
>
>
> Please note that the deadline for the WHO public consultation was extended
> until Nov. 23. So more people can be involved, well up to the meeting of
> the WHO executive board on Nov. 22-23. Please keep demanding, in the link
> below, that WHO includes aging health, including biomedical R&D on aging,
> into its Work Program (where this topic is currently absent?.)
>
>
>
> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>
>
>
> In addition to responding to the consultation, please help spread the word
> ? share, forward, post, contact journalists, officials.
>
>
> And here are also some points that could be mentioned. Thank you!
>
>
>
> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-
> and-goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-
> population-into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>
>
>
>
>
> Ilia
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> <#m_5217559554488151733_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 7:40 AM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just to add. We do need to increase publicity about this outrageous issue
>> of the exclusion of aging health from the draft WHO work program. For
>> example, the facebook post below reached over 30,000 people. But generally,
>> the coverage of this global scandal has been next to zero. So in case you
>> did not yet, please do respond to the WHO consultation (in the second link
>> below, until Nov. 15). Please demand that aging health is included into the
>> WHO work program. If possible please engage journalists, bloggers, high
>> officials that you know. It will be a shame if aging is excluded from the
>> WHO work program. For one, it will tell the governments that aging is not
>> an issue. And practically, many existing and future health care and health
>> research programs on aging can be eliminated. Thanks for your action.
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080
>> 764?pnref=story
>> <https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764>
>>
>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>> <https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fabout%2Fgpw-thirteen-consultation%2Fen%2F&h=ATPIJgUPjFZiE2WO2JbZSd4BYafBW8xYHIRu2kjp0Mf9m3KpZnDncCalXZHs75c5eguWDTsWqmUc39jEW0tVArES9EOFXmwpzy_gzLrtTpYQa5nHACFGrBd-HhULCxp1SF5j0-qzkYX295vnwJXGNbDXuvc2Olbmsjy5e6m744oiHlghkUirGEXLEfxTpLrzkNYhT7F9MRDvM4Ss4tg2vPnU8slOJDgmJbe2MlwIGw25FPMhZ10Sx18F40YHIQ08OadMSID5_yI8jMH8VM3a-ucjYE4Z1MnD4A>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Lincoln!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Here I prepared a statement for the consultation, on behalf of our
>>> organization ? the Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>> Movement (Israel).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please see the link:
>>>
>>> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-go
>>> als-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-into-
>>> the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is summarized in the title: *Include specific tasks and goals to
>>> improve health of the global aging population into the WHO 13th General
>>> Programme of Work (GPW13).*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The statement is short, but not very short, as I believe should be a
>>> statement on behalf of an organization. But I do encourage you to make
>>> statements of any length, individually and/or on behalf of your
>>> organizations! It could be a thorough analysis or just a statement like
>>> ?The WHO should care for the health of the aged. Please include the issues
>>> of aged health into the WHO work program?.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You are welcome to reuse any of the statements in our appeal, and/or
>>> create your own (perhaps better to have multiple voices). Also joint
>>> commenting and petitioning for several organizations may be possible (may
>>> need to coordinate).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you can talk with any journalists you know that could help raise this
>>> issue in public discussion ? that could also help make the impact, even
>>> regardless of WHO?s operations, even just to increase publicity for
>>> biomedical aging research.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. Yours,
>>>
>>> Ilia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Ilia. I submitted a simple statement that may be helpful for
>>>> others to use:
>>>>
>>>> "Please revise to include the issue of aging and aging-related ill
>>>> health."
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for
>>>>> aging care and research.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
>>>>> Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
>>>>> and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
>>>>> within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
>>>>> Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
>>>>> persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
>>>>> development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
>>>>> health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
>>>>> health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
>>>>> health care and health research!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft Work
>>>>> Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
>>>>> Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
>>>>> important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
>>>>> increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
>>>>> are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
>>>>> could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place until
>>>>> November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles. Thank you
>>>>> for your action!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
>>>>> Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
>>>>> global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
>>>>> of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
>>>>> of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
>>>>> among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>>
>>>>> On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>>>> Movement (Israel)
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Longevity for All
>>>>>
>>>>> www.longevityforall.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease -
>>>>> ISOAD http://isoad.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority)
>>>>> Association ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>>>
>>>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>>>
>>>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>
>>>
>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>>> http://isoad.org
>>>
>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association
>>> ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>
>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>
>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>
>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>
>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>
>>
>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>> http://isoad.org
>>
>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
>> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>
>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>
>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>
>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>
>> Skype: iliastam
>>
>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>
>
> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
> http://isoad.org
>
> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>
> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>
> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>
>
>
> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>
> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>
> Skype: iliastam
>
> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>



-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov 23 20:10:32 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 15:10:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
Message-ID: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>

In the current issue of Cryonics Alexandre Erler comments on the following
research article by McIntyre and Fahy about preserving the information in
brains using a new process called aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation
(ASC), and Erler doesn't much like what he sees.  You can download a PDF of
the McIntyre and Fahy article here:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001122401500245X

This method is quite different from the way Alcor preserves brains and in
my opinion superior, but Erier doesn't like it for philosophical reasons
that I have to say seem downright silly to me. Basically what they did is
fix the molecules in place with glutaraldehyde (the stuff in the wart
removing lotion you can get at the drugstore ) then they infused ethylene
glycol as a cryoprotectant and then cooled the brains down to -135 C where
they became vitrified.  After rewarming the brains were examined and  "*show
exquisite preservation of anatomical detail after vitrification and
rewarming, with virtually no identifiable artifacts relative to controls*."

So can Alcor's method match that?  Erler says he doesn't know because with
Alcor's method "the brain shrinks to almost 50% of its natural size due to
osmotic dehydration hindering our ability to establish the quality of
ultrastructure preservation".  Well yes, I imagine such shrinkage would
distort things and make it harder to see fine details, McIntyre and Fahy
think so too:

"
*For the purposes of connectomics, this dehydration is undesirable because
it distorts the brain's ultrastructure and causes difficulties in tracing
fine? neural processes*. "

But there is no shrinkage with the new method. After keeping the brains at
-135 C for several days they then rewarmed them and examined them with a
electron microscope. This is what they found:

*"Rabbit brains upon dissection revealed no cracks resulting from the
vitrification or rewarming processes. Brain weights were commensurate with
control brains, and we found no retraction of the brains from their skulls.
Control rabbit brains displayed excellent ultrastructural preservation.
[...] All 8 rabbit brains preserved using ASC consistently displayed
ultrastructural preservation indistinguishable from that of controls [...]
Intracellular organelles are also well preserved: rough endoplasmic
reticulum is clear and compact, and the mitochondria appear normal  [...]
There are several synapses present, with clear pre-synaptic vesicles and
well defined, darkly stained post-synaptic densities [...] All capillaries
are open and clear of debris, there are no ??dark?? cells, and there is no
obvious mechanical or osmotic disruption or distortion of any cells.  [...]
We also observed no signs of ice crystal artifacts in any of our
ASC-processed brains. [...] . Vitrified storage at -135 C should enable
essentially indefinite storage of brain tissue with no degradation due to
suppressed molecular motion in the vitrified state. [...]The aldehydes
immediately stabilize the fine structure of the brain to an extent
sufficient for connectomics research, meeting our goal of high-quality
preservation. [...]  ASC is scalable to because the  chemicals are
delivered via perfusion, which enables easy scaling to brains of any size;
vitrification ensures that the ultrastructure of the brain will not degrade
even over very long storage times, processes were easily traceable and
synapses were crisp"*

So much for that old canard about a frozen brain resulting in mush. It
seems pretty clear to me that the ASC method is better at preserving brain
information and Alcor should switch over to it unless financial reasons
make it impractical, and I don't think wart lotion is all that expensive.
But the thing that bothers Alexandre Erler is not the expense but the fact
that although the information about the brain is preserved the fixative
would render the brain itself unviable, it would be easier to use the
information to make another brain (or upload the brain software) than it
would be to remove all the molecules of glutaraldehyde from the original
brain so it can be restarted. Erler fears that the duplicate brain might
not *really* be you even if all the information in both was identical, he
wants to keep the "original" brain.

But what exactly is so original about the "original"? Atoms are generic,
our names are not scratched on
?the atoms in our bodies?
, not even
?on ?
the atoms in our brain.  And besides
?,?
atoms are constantly shifting in and out of our bodies anyway, today your
brain is literally made of last years mashed potatoes. It seems to me if we
are going to have any chance of escaping oblivion we need to totally
embrace rationality
?,?
and that means we should go for whatever method that best preserve brain
information regardless of what happens to "the original". Cryonicists often
criticize others for failing to be rational about life and death, but with
talk about "the original" and a immaterial "something" that a copied brain
would lack we are doing the same thing; if we're going to go down that road
we might as well abandon science altogether and stick with traditional
religion and hope that mumbo jumbo will bring us immortality.
? I agree 100% with ?
McIntyre and Fahy
? that we don't ?"
*need to preserve the biological viability of brain tissue; the primary
criterion for success is instead to maintain the delicate? ?ultrastructural
appearance of the brain*
*?*"?
.
?

?John K Clark?
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From ilia.stambler at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 06:39:46 2017
From: ilia.stambler at gmail.com (Ilia Stambler)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 08:39:46 +0200
Subject: [ExI] [cta] Aging is excluded from WHO work program. Please
	react!
In-Reply-To: <CAJbwcBiPwgSXoPm8c7sUb-M2DZbrHd0dbmwesFnc+zcw77QFrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJbwcBgE4UPgV=hzW_qawr_-thU+OLbifyyJ3qYwy5tZqEuRnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ-DvHGUR2o7UewKUOmYb-G2+P_yK2=ESt0_KJtZtiybOBBeqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjbgpY=jo-Uv70t-9RTUMPa62VZHbFfyAWnYc8o8Z=d2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBiFhLsiRPMk_-W4RM0oSmF050Nj7h_OPMSUMpCs1gCQ+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBjnVwjgj91gTFr2RTbU5W3necubePCe66zQzg3rMp+COw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJbwcBiPwgSXoPm8c7sUb-M2DZbrHd0dbmwesFnc+zcw77QFrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJbwcBhxdTGRRPaJZ+9NYeRq3Rt=rTSMSoJaUeEN6s69Doi0pQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dear friends and colleagues.



Many apologies for the many messages (and possible repetitions)! But the
issue is significant for everybody engaged in aging health care and aging
health research.



*I just wanted to update you that it looks like our joint advocacy efforts
with the WHO had some effects.  About 90% of the responses (of over 400 by
Nov. 19 and more are coming in) were about the lack of aging in the WHO
program*. And following those comments, as the ?proposed action? WHO
apparently plans to commit to including WHO?s earlier ?Global Strategy and
Action Plan on Aging and Health - GSAP? in its work program (including GSAP
strategic objective 5 "Improving measurement, monitoring and research on
Healthy Ageing").



(Of course, that is just partial information, mainly according to the WHO
Presentation

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/events/2017/executive-special-session/
executive-board-slides.pdf?ua=1



https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155224996319001&set=a.
10151164471979001.443216.609694000&type=3&theater&ifg=1

It is still too early to make any definite conclusions. We will still need
to watch the process for the long run, and respond accordingly.)



But apparently some contribution was made. *Thank you very much for your
involvement and effort!*



That is just a start. We can still advocate with WHO for the strong
emphasis on aging health and R&D for healthy longevity through May 2018
(when the work program is submitted to the WHO assembly).

*Even now you are welcome to continue responding to the WHO consultation,
and emphasize the importance of aging health and biomedical aging research,
as the deadline was again extended through Nov. 29, if you have not yet
done so*. http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/



Please also spread the word (also in the media and social media, as mass
media ignores this topic, even though this issue relates basically to
everybody). *We have to make the need to promote aging health
overwhelmingly clear to WHO (>95%)!*



Thanks again!

Ilia Stambler, PhD

Outreach coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease (ISOAD)

http://www.aginganddisease.org/EN/10.14336/AD.2017.1120

http://www.isoad.org/Data/View/745

Longevity for all

http://www.longevityforall.org/aging-is-excluded-from-
who-work-program-please-react/

https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/photos/a.
781457785224291.1073741828.668820539821350/1478935032143226/?type=3&theater

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 6:57 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Another update (apparently the last one in this batch, as the WHO
> consultation and executive committee meeting end tomorrow - Nov. 23).
> Toward the WHO meeting, a joint position statement has just been published,
> entitled:
>
>
>
> ?Aging health and R&D for healthy longevity must be included into the WHO
> Work Program?. *Aging and Disease*. 9(1):1-3, 2018. Available on line:
>
>
>
> http://www.aginganddisease.org/EN/10.14336/AD.2017.1120
>
>
>
> http://www.isoad.org/Data/View/745
>
>
>
> The signatories include leaders of the International Society on Aging and
> Disease (ISOAD), American Federation for Aging Research (AFAR),
> International Federation on Ageing (IFA), International Association of
> Gerontology and Geriatrics - IAGG (European Region and Asia-Oceania),
> International Longevity Center - Australia, The Gerontological Society of
> the Russian Academy of Sciences, African Society for Ageing Research and
> Development (ASARD).
>
>
>
> Welcome to reference this document in your advocacy efforts!
>
>
>
> In case you have not yet done so, you can still respond to the WHO
> consultation through November 23, demanding that aging health and R&D for
> healthy longevity are included into the WHO work program. You can still
> spread the word and increase publicity about this important issue! Many
> thanks to everybody who already participated! I hope we succeed!
>
>
>
> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>
>
>
> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-
> goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-
> into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>
>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080
> 764?pnref=story
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Ilia
>
> On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Just an update.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please note that the deadline for the WHO public consultation was
>> extended until Nov. 23. So more people can be involved, well up to the
>> meeting of the WHO executive board on Nov. 22-23. Please keep demanding, in
>> the link below, that WHO includes aging health, including biomedical R&D on
>> aging, into its Work Program (where this topic is currently absent?.)
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>
>>
>>
>> In addition to responding to the consultation, please help spread the
>> word ? share, forward, post, contact journalists, officials.
>>
>>
>> And here are also some points that could be mentioned. Thank you!
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-
>> goals-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-
>> into-the-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ilia
>>
>>
>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Virus-free.
>> www.avg.com
>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> <#m_-5329734325800912134_m_5217559554488151733_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 13, 2017 at 7:40 AM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Just to add. We do need to increase publicity about this outrageous
>>> issue of the exclusion of aging health from the draft WHO work program. For
>>> example, the facebook post below reached over 30,000 people. But generally,
>>> the coverage of this global scandal has been next to zero. So in case you
>>> did not yet, please do respond to the WHO consultation (in the second link
>>> below, until Nov. 15). Please demand that aging health is included into the
>>> WHO work program. If possible please engage journalists, bloggers, high
>>> officials that you know. It will be a shame if aging is excluded from the
>>> WHO work program. For one, it will tell the governments that aging is not
>>> an issue. And practically, many existing and future health care and health
>>> research programs on aging can be eliminated. Thanks for your action.
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080
>>> 764?pnref=story
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/longevityforall/posts/1466226320080764>
>>>
>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>> <https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.who.int%2Fabout%2Fgpw-thirteen-consultation%2Fen%2F&h=ATPIJgUPjFZiE2WO2JbZSd4BYafBW8xYHIRu2kjp0Mf9m3KpZnDncCalXZHs75c5eguWDTsWqmUc39jEW0tVArES9EOFXmwpzy_gzLrtTpYQa5nHACFGrBd-HhULCxp1SF5j0-qzkYX295vnwJXGNbDXuvc2Olbmsjy5e6m744oiHlghkUirGEXLEfxTpLrzkNYhT7F9MRDvM4Ss4tg2vPnU8slOJDgmJbe2MlwIGw25FPMhZ10Sx18F40YHIQ08OadMSID5_yI8jMH8VM3a-ucjYE4Z1MnD4A>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 12:01 PM, Ilia Stambler <ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you Lincoln!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here I prepared a statement for the consultation, on behalf of our
>>>> organization ? the Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>>> Movement (Israel).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please see the link:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.longevityforall.org/include-specific-tasks-and-go
>>>> als-to-improve-health-of-the-global-aging-population-into-th
>>>> e-who-13th-general-programme-of-work-gpw13/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is summarized in the title: *Include specific tasks and goals to
>>>> improve health of the global aging population into the WHO 13th General
>>>> Programme of Work (GPW13).*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The statement is short, but not very short, as I believe should be a
>>>> statement on behalf of an organization. But I do encourage you to make
>>>> statements of any length, individually and/or on behalf of your
>>>> organizations! It could be a thorough analysis or just a statement like
>>>> ?The WHO should care for the health of the aged. Please include the issues
>>>> of aged health into the WHO work program?.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are welcome to reuse any of the statements in our appeal, and/or
>>>> create your own (perhaps better to have multiple voices). Also joint
>>>> commenting and petitioning for several organizations may be possible (may
>>>> need to coordinate).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you can talk with any journalists you know that could help raise
>>>> this issue in public discussion ? that could also help make the impact,
>>>> even regardless of WHO?s operations, even just to increase publicity for
>>>> biomedical aging research.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. Yours,
>>>>
>>>> Ilia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lincoln Cannon <lincoln at metacannon.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Ilia. I submitted a simple statement that may be helpful
>>>>> for others to use:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Please revise to include the issue of aging and aging-related ill
>>>>> health."
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Ilia Stambler <
>>>>> ilia.stambler at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear friends,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wanted to bring to your attention an important and urgent issue for
>>>>>> aging care and research.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It turns out that in the forthcoming work program of the World Health
>>>>>> Organization (WHO) for the next 5 years ? 2018-2023 ? the issue of aging
>>>>>> and aging-related ill health is excluded completely! This means that,
>>>>>> within the next 5 years, according to this document, the World Health
>>>>>> Organization is not obliged to do anything to care for the health of older
>>>>>> persons or to improve their health, not to mention conduct any research and
>>>>>> development to create new therapies and technologies for improving the
>>>>>> health of the aged, or any kind of longevity research. The issues of aged
>>>>>> health are not in the WHO work program! This is the essence of ageism in
>>>>>> health care and health research!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Currently, the WHO conducts a public consultation about the draft
>>>>>> Work Program. Please use the link below to participate in the consultation!
>>>>>> Please explain to the World Health Organization that the issue of Aging is
>>>>>> important, and the care and improvement of health of the aged, also through
>>>>>> increasing biomedical R&D of aging, are important! The consultation fields
>>>>>> are easy to fill in, and even a couple of sentences, with your affiliation,
>>>>>> could help break the ageist wall! *The consultation takes place
>>>>>> until November 15*. Please also spread the word in your circles.
>>>>>> Thank you for your action!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.who.int/about/gpw-thirteen-consultation/en/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the words of Jane Barratt, Secretary General of the International
>>>>>> Federation on Ageing (IFA) that brings this issue to the highlight of
>>>>>> global public discussion: ?We urge the WHO to rectify the glaring omission
>>>>>> of population ageing and older people in the draft 13th General Programme
>>>>>> of Work. It is a striking oversight that will diminish its credibility
>>>>>> among all of us. Make your voice heard bit.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On behalf of Vetek (Seniority) Association ? the Senior Citizens
>>>>>> Movement (Israel)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Longevity for All
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.longevityforall.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease -
>>>>>> ISOAD http://isoad.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority)
>>>>>> Association ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>>>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>>>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>> send an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>> Groups "Christian Transhumanist Association" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>> an email to christian-transhumanism+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease -
>>>> ISOAD http://isoad.org
>>>>
>>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association
>>>> ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>>
>>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>>
>>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>>
>>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>>
>>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>>
>>>
>>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>>> http://isoad.org
>>>
>>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association
>>> ? The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>>
>>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>>
>>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>>
>>> Skype: iliastam
>>>
>>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>>
>>
>> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
>> http://isoad.org
>>
>> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
>> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
>> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>>
>> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>>
>> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
>> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
>> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>>
>> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>>
>> Skype: iliastam
>>
>> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ilia Stambler, PhD
>
>
> Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
> http://isoad.org
>
> Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
> The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
> <http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*
>
> Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org
>
> Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the
> Twentieth Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary
> Perspectives *http://longevityhistory.com
>
>
>
> Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com
>
> Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578
>
> Skype: iliastam
>
> Rishon Lezion. Israel
>



-- 

Ilia Stambler, PhD


Outreach Coordinator. International Society on Aging and Disease - ISOAD
http://isoad.org

Chair. Israeli Longevity Alliance / CSO. Vetek (Seniority) Association ?
The Senior Citizens Movement (Israel) *http://www.longevityisrael.org/
<http://www.longevityisrael.org/>*

Coordinator. Longevity for All http://www.longevityforall.org

Author. Longevity History. *A History of Life-Extensionism in the Twentieth
Century *; *Longevity Promotion: Multidisciplinary Perspectives *
http://longevityhistory.com



Email: ilia.stambler at gmail.com

Tel: 972-3-961-4296 / 0522-283-578

Skype: iliastam

Rishon Lezion. Israel
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 25 17:08:39 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 09:08:39 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
Message-ID: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>

http://www.sciencealert.com/graphene-levy-flights-limitless-power-future-electronic-devices

Not exactly violating the Second Law... Comments on getting this outside the lab and scalability?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sun Nov 26 11:27:18 2017
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 06:27:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder what would it take to induce Alcor to offer ASC as an alternative
biostasis protocol. The procedure is similar to the existing protocol, just
a series of washout steps. No dramatic changes to existing equipment would
be needed. Glutaraldehyde is toxic but not to the point where it would
introduce very dangerous working conditions. Reagent cost is trivial.

Why not try it on an opt-in or cost-plus basis? Sure, there are folks who
like the idea of direct reanimation from existing tissue and they might
insist on keeping the old protocol but why should the rest of us be tied to
this technology. Ultrastructure after suspension is the reasonable basis
for choosing one technology over another, and here ASC wins hands down.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Nov 26 18:27:47 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 13:27:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0UGPy+WrpntuDOuuT6cjNc-4hxSN4hi=fp29qN0NsRTQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> I wonder what would it take to induce Alcor to offer ASC as an
> alternative biostasis protocol. The procedure is similar to the existing
> protocol, just a series of washout steps. No dramatic changes to existing
> equipment would be needed. Glutaraldehyde is toxic but not to the point
> where it would introduce very dangerous working conditions. Reagent cost is
> trivial.
> Why not try it on an opt-in or cost-plus basis?
>

That is a excellent question! And how can a person be rational enough to
see the advantage Cryonics  has over a procedure that burns up the
information that makes you be you or to have it be eaten by worms,
? ?
but not be rational enough to see the advantage ASC has over ALCOR's
procedure that shrinks the brain by 50% due to osmotic dehydration?  If
there is a practical reason for being unable to do this without a
? ?
big increase in cost I haven't heard it. The recent article in Cryonics
? ?
by Erler
? ?
certainly gave no such reason, all he has was vague philosophical
misgivings bases on nothing as far as I can see. And his excuse that
Alcor's method may preserve ultrastructure just as well but unlike the ASC
way we can't take clear pictures with a electron microscope because osmotic
dehydration distorts the tissue too much is nuts. If one method can make
remarkably clear electron microscope pictures and one can't because of
distortion then one preserves information better than the other.


> ?> ?
> Sure, there are folks who like the idea of direct reanimation from
> existing tissue and they might insist on keeping the old protocol
>

?I guess even some ?
cryonicist
?s ?
??still feel the pull of superstition.


?> ?
> but why should the rest of us be tied to this technology. Ultrastructure
> after suspension is the reasonable basis for choosing one technology over
> another, and here ASC wins hands down.


YES, preservation of information is ?the ONLY thing that matters, if
Drexler type Nanotechnology has the correct information then it can bring
you back from the dead, but without that information even Nanotechnology
can't. And without Nanotechnology neither method will work.  It's as simple
as that.
 ?

?Incidentally I also put a duplicate of my first post on this topic on
Alcor's webpage on their forum, ALCOR's members might want to put in their
two cents there too: ?

http://www.alcor.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=224

?  John K Clark ?
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Nov 27 02:00:09 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 18:00:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki



 

>?Why not try it on an opt-in or cost-plus basis? Sure, there are folks who like the idea of direct reanimation from existing tissue and they might insist on keeping the old protocol but why should the rest of us be tied to this technology. Ultrastructure after suspension is the reasonable basis for choosing one technology over another, and here ASC wins hands down?

 

 

Seems like a business op to offer a low-cost alternative to cryonics.  You could buy all your own stuff ahead, then pay Alcor to do not a heck of a lot more than put your head in a jar of preservative and keep the door locked.

 

I can imagine plenty of people who might opt for a few-thousand clam alternative, even if they go in knowing it is a longshot.  Funerals are expensive: if it gets you out of that expense it might get some takers.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Nov 27 14:56:36 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 09:56:36 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1xivaP+tC01c8dxp+Bj95MK5B84GdEuATZzG2kvkTPZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 9:00 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

?> ?
> Seems like a business op to offer a low-cost alternative to cryonics.  You
> could buy all your own stuff ahead, then pay Alcor to do not a heck of a
> lot more than put your head in a jar of preservative and keep the door
> locked.
> ?c?
> I can imagine
> ? ?
> plenty of people who might opt for a few-thousand clam alternative, even
> if they go in knowing it is a longshot.  Funerals are expensive: if it gets
> you out of that expense it might get some takers.


I don't think ASC would be any cheaper than ALCOR's current method, it
might even cost more, but I do think it would be better, possibly much
better.  With ASC you'd still have to carefully infuse the brain with
cryoprotectant, its just
? ?
that
? ?
with ASC you'd also infuse it with glutaraldehyde. And for the long term
you'd still have to store the brain in liquid nitrogen at -196C.  Actually
-135C would be slightly better for both methods, going colder than -135
produces some cracks, but the cracks are very narrow and its pretty obvious
which parts belongs where so little information would be lost by the
cracks, and as liquid nitrogen boils at -196
?C?
its simpler and cheaper to store things at that temperature.

? ?
John K Clark


>
>
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From max at maxmore.com  Mon Nov 27 21:50:07 2017
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 14:50:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1xivaP+tC01c8dxp+Bj95MK5B84GdEuATZzG2kvkTPZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1xivaP+tC01c8dxp+Bj95MK5B84GdEuATZzG2kvkTPZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJX-7wVDj_fKnyPmfEFwO3K3fnFJkXSmmDXvjOScq1Q9jn=FQg@mail.gmail.com>

See:
Chemical Brain Preservation and Human Suspended Animation

http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/chemopreservation2.html

Note that neither Fahy nor McIntyre recommends ASC in place of
vitrification at this time.

Being able to chemically preserve brain slices is not comparable to
preserving entire human brains.

The fact that ASC allows you to show clearly ultrastructural preservation
better doesn't mean that ASC is doing a better job at ultrastructure
preservation. Current research is working on reducing or eliminating
dehydration so that we can provide equally clear evidence of excellent
preservation with the existing process.



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:56 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 26, 2017 at 9:00 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> ?> ?
>> Seems like a business op to offer a low-cost alternative to cryonics.
>> You could buy all your own stuff ahead, then pay Alcor to do not a heck of
>> a lot more than put your head in a jar of preservative and keep the door
>> locked.
>> ?c?
>> I can imagine
>> ? ?
>> plenty of people who might opt for a few-thousand clam alternative, even
>> if they go in knowing it is a longshot.  Funerals are expensive: if it gets
>> you out of that expense it might get some takers.
>
>
> I don't think ASC would be any cheaper than ALCOR's current method, it
> might even cost more, but I do think it would be better, possibly much
> better.  With ASC you'd still have to carefully infuse the brain with
> cryoprotectant, its just
> ? ?
> that
> ? ?
> with ASC you'd also infuse it with glutaraldehyde. And for the long term
> you'd still have to store the brain in liquid nitrogen at -196C.  Actually
> -135C would be slightly better for both methods, going colder than -135
> produces some cracks, but the cracks are very narrow and its pretty obvious
> which parts belongs where so little information would be lost by the
> cracks, and as liquid nitrogen boils at -196
> ?C?
> its simpler and cheaper to store things at that temperature.
>
> ? ?
> John K Clark
>
>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 

Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
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From ipbrians at gmail.com  Mon Nov 27 14:39:09 2017
From: ipbrians at gmail.com (Ivor Peter Brians)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 06:39:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <mailman.75.1511629737.11103.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.75.1511629737.11103.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <09684824-82B9-4655-8329-D9A31074EB1D@gmail.com>

I agree with John. We should seek to preserve the information. Those desiring to "keep their original stuff," can have a new brain cloned from their DNA for uploading the data into later (they will no doubt what a newly cloned body as well-either with or without enhancements).

Ivor
(Sorry, I've simply been lurking in the background on the list for some time)

> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 15:10:32 -0500
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
> Message-ID:
>    <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> In the current issue of Cryonics Alexandre Erler comments on the following
> research article by McIntyre and Fahy about preserving the information in
> brains using a new process called aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation
> (ASC), and Erler doesn't much like what he sees.  You can download a PDF of
> the McIntyre and Fahy article here:
> 
> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001122401500245X
> 
> This method is quite different from the way Alcor preserves brains and in
> my opinion superior, but Erier doesn't like it for philosophical reasons
> that I have to say seem downright silly to me. Basically what they did is
> fix the molecules in place with glutaraldehyde (the stuff in the wart
> removing lotion you can get at the drugstore ) then they infused ethylene
> glycol as a cryoprotectant and then cooled the brains down to -135 C where
> they became vitrified.  After rewarming the brains were examined and  "*show
> exquisite preservation of anatomical detail after vitrification and
> rewarming, with virtually no identifiable artifacts relative to controls*."
> 
> So can Alcor's method match that?  Erler says he doesn't know because with
> Alcor's method "the brain shrinks to almost 50% of its natural size due to
> osmotic dehydration hindering our ability to establish the quality of
> ultrastructure preservation".  Well yes, I imagine such shrinkage would
> distort things and make it harder to see fine details, McIntyre and Fahy
> think so too:
> 
> "
> *For the purposes of connectomics, this dehydration is undesirable because
> it distorts the brain's ultrastructure and causes difficulties in tracing
> fine? neural processes*. "
> 
> But there is no shrinkage with the new method. After keeping the brains at
> -135 C for several days they then rewarmed them and examined them with a
> electron microscope. This is what they found:
> 
> *"Rabbit brains upon dissection revealed no cracks resulting from the
> vitrification or rewarming processes. Brain weights were commensurate with
> control brains, and we found no retraction of the brains from their skulls.
> Control rabbit brains displayed excellent ultrastructural preservation.
> [...] All 8 rabbit brains preserved using ASC consistently displayed
> ultrastructural preservation indistinguishable from that of controls [...]
> Intracellular organelles are also well preserved: rough endoplasmic
> reticulum is clear and compact, and the mitochondria appear normal  [...]
> There are several synapses present, with clear pre-synaptic vesicles and
> well defined, darkly stained post-synaptic densities [...] All capillaries
> are open and clear of debris, there are no ??dark?? cells, and there is no
> obvious mechanical or osmotic disruption or distortion of any cells.  [...]
> We also observed no signs of ice crystal artifacts in any of our
> ASC-processed brains. [...] . Vitrified storage at -135 C should enable
> essentially indefinite storage of brain tissue with no degradation due to
> suppressed molecular motion in the vitrified state. [...]The aldehydes
> immediately stabilize the fine structure of the brain to an extent
> sufficient for connectomics research, meeting our goal of high-quality
> preservation. [...]  ASC is scalable to because the  chemicals are
> delivered via perfusion, which enables easy scaling to brains of any size;
> vitrification ensures that the ultrastructure of the brain will not degrade
> even over very long storage times, processes were easily traceable and
> synapses were crisp"*
> 
> So much for that old canard about a frozen brain resulting in mush. It
> seems pretty clear to me that the ASC method is better at preserving brain
> information and Alcor should switch over to it unless financial reasons
> make it impractical, and I don't think wart lotion is all that expensive.
> But the thing that bothers Alexandre Erler is not the expense but the fact
> that although the information about the brain is preserved the fixative
> would render the brain itself unviable, it would be easier to use the
> information to make another brain (or upload the brain software) than it
> would be to remove all the molecules of glutaraldehyde from the original
> brain so it can be restarted. Erler fears that the duplicate brain might
> not *really* be you even if all the information in both was identical, he
> wants to keep the "original" brain.
> 
> But what exactly is so original about the "original"? Atoms are generic,
> our names are not scratched on
> ?the atoms in our bodies?
> , not even
> ?on ?
> the atoms in our brain.  And besides
> ?,?
> atoms are constantly shifting in and out of our bodies anyway, today your
> brain is literally made of last years mashed potatoes. It seems to me if we
> are going to have any chance of escaping oblivion we need to totally
> embrace rationality
> ?,?
> and that means we should go for whatever method that best preserve brain
> information regardless of what happens to "the original". Cryonicists often
> criticize others for failing to be rational about life and death, but with
> talk about "the original" and a immaterial "something" that a copied brain
> would lack we are doing the same thing; if we're going to go down that road
> we might as well abandon science altogether and stick with traditional
> religion and hope that mumbo jumbo will bring us immortality.
> ? I agree 100% with ?
> McIntyre and Fahy
> ? that we don't ?"
> *need to preserve the biological viability of brain tissue; the primary
> criterion for success is instead to maintain the delicate? ?ultrastructural
> appearance of the brain*
> *?*"?
> .
> ?
> 
> ?John K Clark?



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 28 00:59:09 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 16:59:09 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>

Kind of is violating the Second Law, actually.  He's modeled the sheet
vibrating back and forth, but heat causes random vibrations, including
back and then back again.  He also seems to assume switching that
would not in practice take more energy than is generated.

On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.sciencealert.com/graphene-levy-flights-limitless-power-future-electronic-devices
>
> Not exactly violating the Second Law... Comments on getting this outside the
> lab and scalability?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
> http://mybook.to/SandTrap
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Nov 28 01:51:03 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 20:51:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wVDj_fKnyPmfEFwO3K3fnFJkXSmmDXvjOScq1Q9jn=FQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv34JwtFg5RhB=RYmQNyc2fs_hT1qXRk9hDopbyVgqC0AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>
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 <CAJX-7wVDj_fKnyPmfEFwO3K3fnFJkXSmmDXvjOScq1Q9jn=FQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3w-OHegnbeD9CZhr3T2KRk5wQrxXCgasdYbp9k4AhFKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

?Hi Max

Sorry for being a pain, you don't have a easy job and you know one hell of
a lot more about Cryonics than I do but some things don't add up, or at
least I can't get them to.
 I just wish somebody could explain to me exactly what the downside of ASC
is because the philosophical objections given by Erler in the current issue
of Cryonics strikes me as being utterly ridiculous   ?


?> ?
> The fact that ASC allows you to show clearly ultrastructural preservation
> better doesn't mean that ASC is doing a better job at ultrastructure
> preservation.
>

It doesn't?  At the very least it clearly shows that its easier to obtain
the ultrastructural information with a ASC sample than a ALCOR sample.

?> ?
> Current research is working on reducing or eliminating dehydration so that
> we can provide equally clear evidence of excellent preservation with the
> existing process.
>

?Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the very fact that
dehydration distorts things so much you can't take clear pictures of
ultra-structure with a electron microscope but you can with the ASC method
means ASC is doing a better job at preserving information with less
distortion.

See:
> Chemical Brain Preservation and Human Suspended Animation
>
> http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/chemopreservation2.html
>

?From that webpage:?



> ? "?
> restoring function after reversal of our procedures is the most credible
> test of the efficacy of our procedures
> ?"?
>

Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed. In the meantime we're just
going to have to use some other criteria for judging which does a better
job, and right now I can't think of a better one than good electron
microscope pictures.

? "?
> We are reluctant to settle for preservation of ultrastructure alone
> because this goal can always trigger objections that we are failing to
> preserve crucial identity-encoding parts of the brain
> ?"?
> .


?It's always possible that one method preserves some vital quality that we
can't yet see better than the other, but there is nothing we can do about
that because we can't see it, the best we can do right now is pick the
technology that best preserves the qualities we can see, and that would be
ASC   ?


>
> ?"?
> we want to minimize the time the patient has to be retained in low
> temperature care.
> ?"?
>

I want that too, but even assuming both methods preserve enough information
to bring the person back I can see no reason why a ALCOR preserved patient
would come back one hour before a patient preserved with the ASC method.  ?


> ??>
> At Alcor we believe that a credible cryonics organization should aim for
> perfecting human suspended animation.


?The day
human suspended animation
? is perfected will be the same day nobody ever needs to go into suspended
animation again. If the technology is good enough to bring a vitrified
brain cooled to liquid nitrogen temperatures back to full function and
health then killing cancer cells or fixing a bad heart would be child's
play.

Preserving enough undistributed information to bring a person back is hard,
but using that information to actually do it is far far harder; ALCOR is a
small organization and can't do all the heavy lifting by itself, if the
information is preserved sooner or later Nanotechnology will be developed
that can do something with it. I think right now ALCOR should concentrate
on making sure future technology has something to work with.

?"?
> Making slices out of a whole vitrified brain while vitrified is a tough
> problem. It is easier to make thin slices out of a whole brain that?s been
> turned into solid plastic because the resin used is designed for being cut
> into thin slices for microscopy. So plastination has a natural advantage in
> this


?
That may have been a valid point 5 years ago when
?those words were?
 written, but the ASC brain has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified,
and it shows better ultra-structure than the ALCOR preserved brain after it
has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified.

?"?
> After initial stabilization with aldehyde fixatives, a chemopreservation
> patient would have to be transported to a dedicated facility for treatment
> with even more toxic chemicals such as osmium tetroxide and plastic resin
> monomers. Osmium tetroxide is a volatile and extremely powerful oxidizer
> ?"?
>

Osmium tetroxide
?just used for staining to get good pictures from a electron microscope?,
it wouldn't be used if you were trying to preserve a life and not do
research.

?" ?
> In the case of chemopreservation, the absence of low temperatures could
> permit ongoing degradation of poorly fixed and embedded tissue
> ?" ?
> .


?No longer relevant, ?both ASC and ALCOR would store brains at the same low
 temperature.

?


> ?> ?
> Being able to chemically preserve brain slices is not comparable to
> preserving entire human brains.
>

 ?No longer relevant
?, ASC has preserved an entire pig brain.

The reason I'm making a? big deal out of all this is... well... because its
a matter of life and death.

 John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 28 09:53:59 2017
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:53:59 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSxWjybqGpcWVoyhP3+9tgjWWwxW3U6JmMJVJb62VYhoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Okay ... I wouldn't be too surprised if that is actually working. I am
currently giving it about 1 percent probability.

And yes, if it does work, bye-bye thermodynamics as we currently know. 1
percent.

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 1:59 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kind of is violating the Second Law, actually.  He's modeled the sheet
> vibrating back and forth, but heat causes random vibrations, including
> back and then back again.  He also seems to assume switching that
> would not in practice take more energy than is generated.
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > http://www.sciencealert.com/graphene-levy-flights-limitless-
> power-future-electronic-devices
> >
> > Not exactly violating the Second Law... Comments on getting this outside
> the
> > lab and scalability?
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Dan
> >    Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
> > http://mybook.to/SandTrap
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Tue Nov 28 16:24:19 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 11:24:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 27, 2017 20:01, "Adrian Tymes" <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

Kind of is violating the Second Law, actually.  He's modeled the sheet
vibrating back and forth, but heat causes random vibrations, including
back and then back again.  _________________


Well, the wind can go in the same direction twice, but we still can harness
energy from it because of our point of view relative to it.  Is this
similar?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Nov 28 20:32:18 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 12:32:18 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQiH_a8WXGD=nRFVCjrBgfnUyRQfoPWJGOmLDd+k00v7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2017 8:27 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, the wind can go in the same direction twice, but we still can harness
energy from it because of our point of view relative to it.  Is this
similar?


Not so much.  The wind switches direction far less frequently, so wind
turbines have time to adjust.

Further, wind turbines want a steady breeze in the same direction.  In the
grapheme example, the alternation is part of what is proposed to generate
the power.
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Nov 28 22:32:10 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 14:32:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQiH_a8WXGD=nRFVCjrBgfnUyRQfoPWJGOmLDd+k00v7A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQiH_a8WXGD=nRFVCjrBgfnUyRQfoPWJGOmLDd+k00v7A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005001d36898$bbc03550$33409ff0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes

Subject: Re: [ExI] Graphene power?

 

On Nov 28, 2017 8:27 AM, "Will Steinberg" <steinberg.will at gmail.com <mailto:steinberg.will at gmail.com> > wrote:

>>?Well, the wind can go in the same direction twice, but we still can harness energy from it because of our point of view relative to it.  Is this similar?

 

 

>?Further, wind turbines want a steady breeze in the same direction.  In the grapheme example, the alternation is part of what is proposed to generate the power.

 

 

 

I am betting on the laws of thermodynamics.  Graphene is cool.  But it can?t beat entropy.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 01:12:04 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:12:04 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <005001d36898$bbc03550$33409ff0$@att.net>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQiH_a8WXGD=nRFVCjrBgfnUyRQfoPWJGOmLDd+k00v7A@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d36898$bbc03550$33409ff0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTMx4dk3ETrXXobU7e7V3P1-4k7XzQe9d5bSOVsYSwUmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 28, 2017 3:16 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

 I am betting on the laws of thermodynamics.  Graphene is cool.  But it
can?t beat entropy.


Yes, but how?  "Just because the 2nd Law" is not itself a sufficient
answer.  In every case, that law has some means by which perpetual motion
is prevented.

The law just reassures us that there almost certainly is such a mechanism
here; it does not say what it is.
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From max at maxmore.com  Wed Nov 29 03:32:25 2017
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 20:32:25 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
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Hi John,

No need to apologize for being a pain in the ass. These are important
questions.

I'm not sure I have the time nor deep knowledge to answer all your points
adequately but will try to do so soon and have forwarded your thoughts to
others with more in-depth knowledge. For now, just a couple of quick
responses.

Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed.


1. Some very smart and well-informed people in the field would not agree
with this statement -- at least in cases where fracturing can be
eliminated.

2. Alcor has no in-principle objection to offering ASC. ASC still requires
the full capabilities of standby, stabilization, and transport (a major
part of the total cost) and Alcor already has that figured out. There is
nothing in Alcor's model that biases us against ASC. I believe the main
issue is that ASC introduces a further (and major) level of difficulty in
reversibility. Our goal at Alcor is to minimize reliance on projected
breakthroughs in future technology. On a related matter, it's clear to me
that there is a major divide here between those who find it essential to be
revived in their biological bodies and those who believe they will survive
just as well in software emulations. I'm in the latter camp but, in my
position, must take fully into account a great many people in the first
camp.

Best,

--Max



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:51 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>
> ?Hi Max
>
> Sorry for being a pain, you don't have a easy job and you know one hell of
> a lot more about Cryonics than I do but some things don't add up, or at
> least I can't get them to.
>  I just wish somebody could explain to me exactly what the downside of ASC
> is because the philosophical objections given by Erler in the current issue
> of Cryonics strikes me as being utterly ridiculous   ?
>
>
> ?> ?
>> The fact that ASC allows you to show clearly ultrastructural preservation
>> better doesn't mean that ASC is doing a better job at ultrastructure
>> preservation.
>>
>
> It doesn't?  At the very least it clearly shows that its easier to obtain
> the ultrastructural information with a ASC sample than a ALCOR sample.
>
> ?> ?
>> Current research is working on reducing or eliminating dehydration so
>> that we can provide equally clear evidence of excellent preservation with
>> the existing process.
>>
>
> ?Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the very fact that
> dehydration distorts things so much you can't take clear pictures of
> ultra-structure with a electron microscope but you can with the ASC method
> means ASC is doing a better job at preserving information with less
> distortion.
>
> See:
>> Chemical Brain Preservation and Human Suspended Animation
>>
>> http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/chemopreservation2.html
>>
>
> ?From that webpage:?
>
>
>
>> ? "?
>> restoring function after reversal of our procedures is the most credible
>> test of the efficacy of our procedures
>> ?"?
>>
>
> Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed. In the meantime we're just
> going to have to use some other criteria for judging which does a better
> job, and right now I can't think of a better one than good electron
> microscope pictures.
>
> ? "?
>> We are reluctant to settle for preservation of ultrastructure alone
>> because this goal can always trigger objections that we are failing to
>> preserve crucial identity-encoding parts of the brain
>> ?"?
>> .
>
>
> ?It's always possible that one method preserves some vital quality that we
> can't yet see better than the other, but there is nothing we can do about
> that because we can't see it, the best we can do right now is pick the
> technology that best preserves the qualities we can see, and that would be
> ASC   ?
>
>
>>
>> ?"?
>> we want to minimize the time the patient has to be retained in low
>> temperature care.
>> ?"?
>>
>
> I want that too, but even assuming both methods preserve enough
> information to bring the person back I can see no reason why a ALCOR
> preserved patient would come back one hour before a patient preserved with
> the ASC method.  ?
>
>
>> ??>
>> At Alcor we believe that a credible cryonics organization should aim for
>> perfecting human suspended animation.
>
>
> ?The day
> human suspended animation
> ? is perfected will be the same day nobody ever needs to go into suspended
> animation again. If the technology is good enough to bring a vitrified
> brain cooled to liquid nitrogen temperatures back to full function and
> health then killing cancer cells or fixing a bad heart would be child's
> play.
>
> Preserving enough undistributed information to bring a person back is
> hard, but using that information to actually do it is far far harder; ALCOR
> is a small organization and can't do all the heavy lifting by itself, if
> the information is preserved sooner or later Nanotechnology will be
> developed that can do something with it. I think right now ALCOR should
> concentrate on making sure future technology has something to work with.
>
> ?"?
>> Making slices out of a whole vitrified brain while vitrified is a tough
>> problem. It is easier to make thin slices out of a whole brain that?s been
>> turned into solid plastic because the resin used is designed for being cut
>> into thin slices for microscopy. So plastination has a natural advantage in
>> this
>
>
> ?
> That may have been a valid point 5 years ago when
> ?those words were?
>  written, but the ASC brain has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified,
> and it shows better ultra-structure than the ALCOR preserved brain after it
> has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified.
>
> ?"?
>> After initial stabilization with aldehyde fixatives, a chemopreservation
>> patient would have to be transported to a dedicated facility for treatment
>> with even more toxic chemicals such as osmium tetroxide and plastic resin
>> monomers. Osmium tetroxide is a volatile and extremely powerful oxidizer
>> ?"?
>>
>
> Osmium tetroxide
> ?just used for staining to get good pictures from a electron microscope?,
> it wouldn't be used if you were trying to preserve a life and not do
> research.
>
> ?" ?
>> In the case of chemopreservation, the absence of low temperatures could
>> permit ongoing degradation of poorly fixed and embedded tissue
>> ?" ?
>> .
>
>
> ?No longer relevant, ?both ASC and ALCOR would store brains at the same
> low  temperature.
>
> ?
>
>
>> ?> ?
>> Being able to chemically preserve brain slices is not comparable to
>> preserving entire human brains.
>>
>
>  ?No longer relevant
> ?, ASC has preserved an entire pig brain.
>
> The reason I'm making a? big deal out of all this is... well... because
> its a matter of life and death.
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>


-- 

Max More, PhD
Strategic Philosopher
Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader*
http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader
President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 05:46:21 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:46:21 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/business/initial-coin-offering-critic.html

Jeff, and anyone else involved in ICOs: your thoughts?


From stathisp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 07:53:24 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 18:53:24 +1100
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypV0pTpcY5MMsu6gTTaNOkqyONR0G8uCDcemxs0tDC6oUw@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 November 2017 at 16:46, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/business/initial-coin-
> offering-critic.html
>
> Jeff, and anyone else involved in ICOs: your thoughts?
>

There are no rules at all. The underlying projects are often very vaguely
described, there is often little prospect for profit even if the project
succeeds, and even if there is profit the holders of the coins are not
usually entitled to any of it.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Nov 29 11:47:29 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 03:47:29 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypV0pTpcY5MMsu6gTTaNOkqyONR0G8uCDcemxs0tDC6oUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypV0pTpcY5MMsu6gTTaNOkqyONR0G8uCDcemxs0tDC6oUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001f01d36907$d69e6a30$83db3e90$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 11:53 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator

 

 

 

On 29 November 2017 at 16:46, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com <mailto:atymes at gmail.com> > wrote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/business/initial-coin-offering-critic.html

Jeff, and anyone else involved in ICOs: your thoughts?

 

>>?There are no rules at all. The underlying projects are often very vaguely described, there is often little prospect for profit even if the project succeeds, and even if there is profit the holders of the coins are not usually entitled to any of it. 
-- 

Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

It?s 1999 again!

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Nov 29 16:35:18 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:35:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Cryonics Alexandre Erler and bad philosophy
In-Reply-To: <CAJX-7wXmPx02LK3ub=nBqHheHyvffxahKHn9eAA8BioQgPBkdA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFhEz4PPjc-5Mhq7pk9MYVPgDFXAVfb+OfqvGkz8Bw1Etg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00ba01d36723$76cf74e0$646e5ea0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1xivaP+tC01c8dxp+Bj95MK5B84GdEuATZzG2kvkTPZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wVDj_fKnyPmfEFwO3K3fnFJkXSmmDXvjOScq1Q9jn=FQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3w-OHegnbeD9CZhr3T2KRk5wQrxXCgasdYbp9k4AhFKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJX-7wXmPx02LK3ub=nBqHheHyvffxahKHn9eAA8BioQgPBkdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3XQ3MbJ+wtOLWqNHySBp5W=V6QRUhCHnXY0=1Nu7+DtA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Max

Thanks for taking my
?concerns?
 seriously, I'm glad to see you think they may not be entirely without
merit. You mentioned fracturing but I'm not very worried about that because
I think a good computer could figure out what parts should go where
?.?
I'm much more worried about turbulence, that is
?parts?
 mixing in a nonlinear way, because then even a nano-computer may not be
able to put Humpty Dumpty
? back together again, or even figure out what his brain looked like before
all the damage.

If ALCOR's ?preservation methods improves enough that a person, or even a
mouse, can be brought back to full viability from liquid nitrogen
temperatures without Drexler's Nanotechnology then I'll forget all about
ASC; I don't think that's going to happen but I'd love to be proven wrong.
In the meantime I think the focus should be on preserving the most
information we can with as little distortion as possible.

 John K Clark
=================



On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> No need to apologize for being a pain in the ass. These are important
> questions.
>
> I'm not sure I have the time nor deep knowledge to answer all your points
> adequately but will try to do so soon and have forwarded your thoughts to
> others with more in-depth knowledge. For now, just a couple of quick
> responses.
>
> Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
>> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
>> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed.
>
>
> 1. Some very smart and well-informed people in the field would not agree
> with this statement -- at least in cases where fracturing can be
> eliminated.
>
> 2. Alcor has no in-principle objection to offering ASC. ASC still requires
> the full capabilities of standby, stabilization, and transport (a major
> part of the total cost) and Alcor already has that figured out. There is
> nothing in Alcor's model that biases us against ASC. I believe the main
> issue is that ASC introduces a further (and major) level of difficulty in
> reversibility. Our goal at Alcor is to minimize reliance on projected
> breakthroughs in future technology. On a related matter, it's clear to me
> that there is a major divide here between those who find it essential to be
> revived in their biological bodies and those who believe they will survive
> just as well in software emulations. I'm in the latter camp but, in my
> position, must take fully into account a great many people in the first
> camp.
>
> Best,
>
> --Max
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:51 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Max More <max at maxmore.com> wrote:
>>
>> ?Hi Max
>>
>> Sorry for being a pain, you don't have a easy job and you know one hell
>> of a lot more about Cryonics than I do but some things don't add up, or at
>> least I can't get them to.
>>  I just wish somebody could explain to me exactly what the downside of
>> ASC is because the philosophical objections given by Erler in the current
>> issue of Cryonics strikes me as being utterly ridiculous   ?
>>
>>
>> ?> ?
>>> The fact that ASC allows you to show clearly ultrastructural
>>> preservation better doesn't mean that ASC is doing a better job at
>>> ultrastructure preservation.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't?  At the very least it clearly shows that its easier to obtain
>> the ultrastructural information with a ASC sample than a ALCOR sample.
>>
>> ?> ?
>>> Current research is working on reducing or eliminating dehydration so
>>> that we can provide equally clear evidence of excellent preservation with
>>> the existing process.
>>>
>>
>> ?Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the very fact that
>> dehydration distorts things so much you can't take clear pictures of
>> ultra-structure with a electron microscope but you can with the ASC method
>> means ASC is doing a better job at preserving information with less
>> distortion.
>>
>> See:
>>> Chemical Brain Preservation and Human Suspended Animation
>>>
>>> http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/chemopreservation2.html
>>>
>>
>> ?From that webpage:?
>>
>>
>>
>>> ? "?
>>> restoring function after reversal of our procedures is the most credible
>>> test of the efficacy of our procedures
>>> ?"?
>>>
>>
>> Well yes, but nobody is going to be revived from liquid nitrogen
>> temperatures using either ALCOR's method or the ASC technology until full
>> scale Drexler style nanotechnology is developed. In the meantime we're just
>> going to have to use some other criteria for judging which does a better
>> job, and right now I can't think of a better one than good electron
>> microscope pictures.
>>
>> ? "?
>>> We are reluctant to settle for preservation of ultrastructure alone
>>> because this goal can always trigger objections that we are failing to
>>> preserve crucial identity-encoding parts of the brain
>>> ?"?
>>> .
>>
>>
>> ?It's always possible that one method preserves some vital quality that
>> we can't yet see better than the other, but there is nothing we can do
>> about that because we can't see it, the best we can do right now is pick
>> the technology that best preserves the qualities we can see, and that would
>> be ASC   ?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ?"?
>>> we want to minimize the time the patient has to be retained in low
>>> temperature care.
>>> ?"?
>>>
>>
>> I want that too, but even assuming both methods preserve enough
>> information to bring the person back I can see no reason why a ALCOR
>> preserved patient would come back one hour before a patient preserved with
>> the ASC method.  ?
>>
>>
>>> ??>
>>> At Alcor we believe that a credible cryonics organization should aim for
>>> perfecting human suspended animation.
>>
>>
>> ?The day
>> human suspended animation
>> ? is perfected will be the same day nobody ever needs to go into
>> suspended animation again. If the technology is good enough to bring a
>> vitrified brain cooled to liquid nitrogen temperatures back to full
>> function and health then killing cancer cells or fixing a bad heart would
>> be child's play.
>>
>> Preserving enough undistributed information to bring a person back is
>> hard, but using that information to actually do it is far far harder; ALCOR
>> is a small organization and can't do all the heavy lifting by itself, if
>> the information is preserved sooner or later Nanotechnology will be
>> developed that can do something with it. I think right now ALCOR should
>> concentrate on making sure future technology has something to work with.
>>
>> ?"?
>>> Making slices out of a whole vitrified brain while vitrified is a tough
>>> problem. It is easier to make thin slices out of a whole brain that?s been
>>> turned into solid plastic because the resin used is designed for being cut
>>> into thin slices for microscopy. So plastination has a natural advantage in
>>> this
>>
>>
>> ?
>> That may have been a valid point 5 years ago when
>> ?those words were?
>>  written, but the ASC brain has been warmed up and is no longer
>> vitrified, and it shows better ultra-structure than the ALCOR preserved
>> brain after it has been warmed up and is no longer vitrified.
>>
>> ?"?
>>> After initial stabilization with aldehyde fixatives, a chemopreservation
>>> patient would have to be transported to a dedicated facility for treatment
>>> with even more toxic chemicals such as osmium tetroxide and plastic resin
>>> monomers. Osmium tetroxide is a volatile and extremely powerful oxidizer
>>> ?"?
>>>
>>
>> Osmium tetroxide
>> ?just used for staining to get good pictures from a electron microscope?,
>> it wouldn't be used if you were trying to preserve a life and not do
>> research.
>>
>> ?" ?
>>> In the case of chemopreservation, the absence of low temperatures could
>>> permit ongoing degradation of poorly fixed and embedded tissue
>>> ?" ?
>>> .
>>
>>
>> ?No longer relevant, ?both ASC and ALCOR would store brains at the same
>> low  temperature.
>>
>> ?
>>
>>
>>> ?> ?
>>> Being able to chemically preserve brain slices is not comparable to
>>> preserving entire human brains.
>>>
>>
>>  ?No longer relevant
>> ?, ASC has preserved an entire pig brain.
>>
>> The reason I'm making a? big deal out of all this is... well... because
>> its a matter of life and death.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>>
>>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 01:17:21 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 20:17:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Graphene power?
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <120EE968-BEAC-4BF7-8604-13934DFA48DF@gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRhyNoJd04ACz_GqFi5Jqr2cBe8LoQL008M8hRxhhPxVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEpn+S3YwwSWBwZHUsGDXDxTOz+qkK3LuEF45jb7Vi4=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2G=QkzrFV7dYO6FELqkmYEn0PSvWRdTcVk9B3SaOxGAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> Well, the wind can go in the same direction twice, but we still can
> harness energy from it because of our point of view relative to it.  Is
> this similar?
>

It's not just any sort of energy we want, only one form of it, work, is
useful and work is force over distance. So we could rig a windmill
? to a
pulley
?so it would?
 raise a weight
?,?
and that would create potential energy we could get work out of. If the
wind blew north as often as it blew south the wind would just as easily
raise the weight as lower it unless we put a ratchet on the pulley forcing
it to turn in only one direction
?, then?
 we could still get work out of it. That works fine if things are large and
slow moving but its impossible even in theory to make a perfect ratchet
?,?
 the smaller the ratchet and faster the force changes direction the more
often that ratchet i
?s?
going to slip.
?T?
hat's why a Brownian ratchet
?
would fail so often you could never extract work from random thermal
vibrations. Feynman made all this precise in one of his lectures:

http://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_46.html


John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 14:47:00 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:47:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2sy-Ois9-a-6j3f4GatCZSMO5bhuSOH6wNmjTJjcpKAw@mail.gmail.com>

?For the first time a Quantum Computer has solved a problem that a
conventional computer ?can not, actually 2 different Quantum Computers did
and there is a paper from each team in the issue of the journal Nature that
came out yesterday:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature24654.epdf?referrer_access_token=d5OIRgRXjhov_Y7aUYicHdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0O2y_BZ5CPS-KH0aejio0CrBO8pCtA0Hw4GFFcyLIGq_9sLyItmGlAGgcpoZyLC8y6KSXTgCvy7v1QisLsYnG7vqi0w-vnf5I6-odil-i4Ggo4QUUcQBWJIcfy58N7x-D6YsD_nU4U1ytVuVTPC_9DiOvGaqFmBfRv224xNWopYo0YSPYwYmZ6NRvXUvTz9IjU%3D&tracking_referrer=www.livescience.com

/www.nature.com/articles/nature24622.epdf?referrer_access_token=dgXGNTysT8EwhOOZ9lOtQtRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MQ8a6_YgG4UfcW2SwV0yyUTLJhfJnff5uaj_no78zD6rP8nmDWU7noJKpPvMWclA9w0aheS0c6M6vehI9x_Y8JbfCt86YmnfvcXZxYxSOKVlOHn9Fb-nJl6gLqSwV3gVD4ALGMk31HzU-p36zd4sOlyMHyN2g8I9iV1b0Z70zl6VRmdR2KbTP55RsXB2mA2cQ%3D&tracking_referrer=www.livescience.com

They used their computers to simulate a quantum system, the particular
problem they solved is not very useful but the implications are enormous,
it proves once and for all that a practical quantum computer that you can
actually build can solve problems that a conventional computer can't.

If I place 20 magnetized atoms in a lattice and then move one of those
atoms how will the entire array move in response?  A good home computer
could solve that problem but the difficulty increases exponentially as the
number  of atoms increases, when you get to about 50 atoms even the largest
supercomputer on Earth starts to beg for mercy, but in the new reports one
quantum computer solved the 51 atom problem and the other solved 53. The
mechanical details of the 2 machines are different, one used very tightly
focused LASER beams and rubidium atoms and the other used electrically
charged ytterbium ions, but they both got the job done.

None of this is a threat to bitcoin....YET.  But the clock is ticking.

John K Clark
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From interzone at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 15:02:37 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:02:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2sy-Ois9-a-6j3f4GatCZSMO5bhuSOH6wNmjTJjcpKAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2sy-Ois9-a-6j3f4GatCZSMO5bhuSOH6wNmjTJjcpKAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_aEYvm-ttyg2ToGPWQkPtPb+Ld0QxiaUQBTwpJJzG4_A@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for posting this, John.  Very interesting!  The long term
cryptocurrency impact is also an area to watch as you highlight.

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:47 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?For the first time a Quantum Computer has solved a problem that a
> conventional computer ?can not, actually 2 different Quantum Computers did
> and there is a paper from each team in the issue of the journal Nature that
> came out yesterday:
>
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature24654.epdf?referrer_access_token=
> d5OIRgRXjhov_Y7aUYicHdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0O2y_BZ5CPS-
> KH0aejio0CrBO8pCtA0Hw4GFFcyLIGq_9sLyItmGlAGgcpoZyLC8y6KSXTgCvy
> 7v1QisLsYnG7vqi0w-vnf5I6-odil-i4Ggo4QUUcQBWJIcfy58N7x-D6YsD_nU4U1ytVuVTPC_
> 9DiOvGaqFmBfRv224xNWopYo0YSPYwYmZ6NRvXUvTz9IjU%3D&tracking_
> referrer=www.livescience.com
>
> /www.nature.com/articles/nature24622.epdf?referrer_access_token=
> dgXGNTysT8EwhOOZ9lOtQtRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MQ8a6_
> YgG4UfcW2SwV0yyUTLJhfJnff5uaj_no78zD6rP8nmDWU7noJKpPvMWclA9w
> 0aheS0c6M6vehI9x_Y8JbfCt86YmnfvcXZxYxSOKVlOHn9F
> b-nJl6gLqSwV3gVD4ALGMk31HzU-p36zd4sOlyMHyN2g8I9iV1b0Z70zl6
> VRmdR2KbTP55RsXB2mA2cQ%3D&tracking_referrer=www.livescience.com
>
> They used their computers to simulate a quantum system, the particular
> problem they solved is not very useful but the implications are enormous,
> it proves once and for all that a practical quantum computer that you can
> actually build can solve problems that a conventional computer can't.
>
> If I place 20 magnetized atoms in a lattice and then move one of those
> atoms how will the entire array move in response?  A good home computer
> could solve that problem but the difficulty increases exponentially as the
> number  of atoms increases, when you get to about 50 atoms even the largest
> supercomputer on Earth starts to beg for mercy, but in the new reports one
> quantum computer solved the 51 atom problem and the other solved 53. The
> mechanical details of the 2 machines are different, one used very tightly
> focused LASER beams and rubidium atoms and the other used electrically
> charged ytterbium ions, but they both got the job done.
>
> None of this is a threat to bitcoin....YET.  But the clock is ticking.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 15:10:17 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:10:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2sy-Ois9-a-6j3f4GatCZSMO5bhuSOH6wNmjTJjcpKAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2sy-Ois9-a-6j3f4GatCZSMO5bhuSOH6wNmjTJjcpKAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fBdtsyB2k=5aMSEPR8bwa_gewgNcmeTbthhnL-sf3WTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 9:47 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?
> *They used their computers to simulate a quantum system*, the particular
> problem they solved is not very useful but the implications are enormous,
> it proves once and for all that a practical quantum computer that you can
> actually build can solve problems that a conventional computer can't.
>
> If I place 20 magnetized atoms in a lattice and then move one of those
> atoms how will the entire array move in response?  A good home computer
> could solve that problem but the difficulty increases exponentially as the
> number  of atoms increases, when you get to about 50 atoms even the largest
> supercomputer on Earth starts to beg for mercy, but in the new reports one
> quantum computer solved the 51 atom problem and the other solved 53. T*he
> mechanical details of the 2 machines are different, one used very tightly
> focused LASER beams and rubidium atoms and the other used electrically
> charged ytterbium ions, but they both got the job done.*
>

Which is it? Quantum computers simulated on conventional computers or real
quantum computers?

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 15:25:03 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:25:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
Message-ID: <CAJPayv36S=OCFdoAYgHtUhiUdfi987y7c7skyEFcKx7N+3GLtg@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2017, at 10:10 AM, Dave Sill wrote:

> > Which is it? Quantum computers simulated on conventional computers or
> real quantum computers?

This is a real quantum computer, two of them actually, finding a solution
to a problem that a conventional computer can't. Neither is as versatile as
a conventional computer so they can't yet be programed to work on any sort
of problem but I can't see any reason in principle they can't be before
long.

John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 15:52:39 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:52:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv36S=OCFdoAYgHtUhiUdfi987y7c7skyEFcKx7N+3GLtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv36S=OCFdoAYgHtUhiUdfi987y7c7skyEFcKx7N+3GLtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2dqF_cCT0TY+uLf38pTqPRzSPK-E-43-cB--XS4oQdj0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:25 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a real quantum computer, two of them actually, finding a solution
> to a problem that a conventional computer can't. Neither is as versatile as
> a conventional computer so they can't yet be programed to work on any sort
> of problem but I can't see any reason in principle they can't be before
> long.
>
Well, the title of one the papers is "Probing many-body dynamics on a
51-atom quantum simulator", so I don't see how it's a real quantum
computer. I can't make sense of the paper since I don't have any background
in quantum physics.

Here's a quote:

*"The realization of fully controlled, coherent many-body quantum systems
is an outstanding challenge in science and engineering. As quantum
simulators, they can provide insights into strongly correlated quantum
systems and the role of quantum entanglement1, and enable realizations and
studies of new states of matter, even away from equilibrium. These systems
also form the basis of the realization of quantum information processors2.
Although basic building blocks of such processors have been demonstrated in
systems of a few coupled qubits3,4,5, the current challenge is to increase
the number of coherently coupled qubits to potentially perform tasks that
are beyond the reach of modern classical machines." [emphasis mine]*

Which seems to contradict itself but that's probably just because I'm not
understanding something.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 16:06:45 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:06:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dqF_cCT0TY+uLf38pTqPRzSPK-E-43-cB--XS4oQdj0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv36S=OCFdoAYgHtUhiUdfi987y7c7skyEFcKx7N+3GLtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dqF_cCT0TY+uLf38pTqPRzSPK-E-43-cB--XS4oQdj0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0oSz94p+rvK+mRzLYWr7xNFPfFQfua8yyN0pXTUwG7VQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> ?> ?
> Well, the title of one the papers is "Probing many-body dynamics on a
> 51-atom quantum simulator", so I don't see how it's a real quantum computer.
>

?A quantum simulator is a quantum computer that is simulating a quantum
system, in this case a lattice of magnetized atoms, and that is something
that a conventional computer can't simulate unless the lattice is very
small. A quantum simulator is not a conventional computer simulating a
quantum computer.

 John K Clark  ?


>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 16:08:28 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 08:08:28 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2dqF_cCT0TY+uLf38pTqPRzSPK-E-43-cB--XS4oQdj0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv36S=OCFdoAYgHtUhiUdfi987y7c7skyEFcKx7N+3GLtg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2dqF_cCT0TY+uLf38pTqPRzSPK-E-43-cB--XS4oQdj0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNS7YOiSgWETKUL3kW98EkmrYz=Y1A-u07dHJXB6sdtRAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2017 7:56 AM, "Dave Sill" <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, the title of one the papers is "Probing many-body dynamics on a
51-atom quantum simulator", so I don't see how it's a real quantum computer.


It's one type of quantum system simulating another, more basic (in certain
ways) type of quantum system.  Kind of like emulation.
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 17:37:26 2017
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:37:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
In-Reply-To: <001f01d36907$d69e6a30$83db3e90$@att.net>
References: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypV0pTpcY5MMsu6gTTaNOkqyONR0G8uCDcemxs0tDC6oUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d36907$d69e6a30$83db3e90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onv8xGZY=fVBppRbrMK6FHoV1+-y+mHHyjoUGmJ3vUJ6Ug@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it is 1999, again, already, and possibly in a much more significant
way.

Yes ICO?s, and holding crypto currencies are very dangerous.  There is
still everything from insider trading, to pump and dump schemes, to Ponzi
schemes, and you name it.



But, in 1999, if you picked the right company, Google, over all of the
other many search engines, Amazon, over all of the many online retailers,
Facebook (ether?) over Myspace (bitcoin?)? I think there is much more top
end make huge profits in a small amount of time than there ever was with
the last dot bomb.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 4:47 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 28, 2017 11:53 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C.
> Regulator
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 November 2017 at 16:46, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/26/business/initial-coin-
> offering-critic.html
>
> Jeff, and anyone else involved in ICOs: your thoughts?
>
>
>
> >>?There are no rules at all. The underlying projects are often very
> vaguely described, there is often little prospect for profit even if the
> project succeeds, and even if there is profit the holders of the coins are
> not usually entitled to any of it.
> --
>
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
>
>
>
>
> It?s 1999 again!
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 19:06:57 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:06:57 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onv8xGZY=fVBppRbrMK6FHoV1+-y+mHHyjoUGmJ3vUJ6Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNT5kqX28Jmcj6+_v7n0D+uKoAgXBvmMcU_RwbqrsWeXvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypV0pTpcY5MMsu6gTTaNOkqyONR0G8uCDcemxs0tDC6oUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <001f01d36907$d69e6a30$83db3e90$@att.net>
 <CAK7-onv8xGZY=fVBppRbrMK6FHoV1+-y+mHHyjoUGmJ3vUJ6Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D383E320-DDED-4F57-99FA-23608C004E00@gmail.com>

On Nov 30, 2017, at 9:37 AM, Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, it is 1999, again, already, and possibly in a much more significant way.
> Yes ICO?s, and holding crypto currencies are very dangerous.  There is still everything from insider trading, to pump and dump schemes, to Ponzi schemes, and you name it. 
> But, in 1999, if you picked the right company, Google, over all of the other many search engines, Amazon, over all of the many online retailers, Facebook (ether?) over Myspace (bitcoin?)? I think there is much more top end make huge profits in a small amount of time than there ever was with the last dot bomb.
  
A little nitpick. MySpace and Facebook didn?t exist until years later. Google didn?t IPO until 2004. So you couldn?t have picked them in 1999. 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 19:17:57 2017
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 12:17:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkNqbEZUOCS_j7rg5K5kcDHg2wX2wphYwyLPEiHS-nV8kA@mail.gmail.com>

A quick response.

The SEC guy is a cop. That's what the SEC does, looks around for someone to
slap the cuffs on and "Book 'em, Dano." The ICO phenomenon confronts him
with activity that he -- actually  the SEC --  would under normal
circumstances, be responsible for policing. But these are anything but
normal circumstances. The fact is, that the ICO phenomenon is unhackable,
uncrashable, and uncontrollable. When I say uncontrollable I mean that the
SEC is jurisdictionally constrained. It is the SEC of the United States,
not the SEC of the world. Consequently any jurisdiction that decides to
allow the unregulated, wild west ICO activity  is free to do so. And it
only takes one. Among the two hundred Sovereign Nations there are bound to
be plenty that will want the profits that will come to them by their
sponsorship of an ICO "sanctuary". Switzerland, Malta, and Singapore are
already halfway there.

Stathis is right when he says, "There are no rules at all."   And the SEC
cop mentality can't handle that kind of freedom. The single greatest
sin/crime to the authoritarian mindset is a challenge to their power. And
the ICO phenomena is a great big "f*** you" to the authoritarian mindset.
No surprise therefor, that the "ex-cop" hates it and that the New York
Times publishes his point of view.

Stathis is also correct when he says that a very substantial fraction of
the ICOs are well, let's just say, not serious. That said, nobody is
holding a gun to anybody's head to get them to fork over their money. It's
all voluntary. It's freedom. It's a Libertarian ideal. It's caveat emptor.
It's "Be a big boy now, grow up, and look out for yourself, smartly". Which
is why I find it a bit puzzling that more folks on the list aren't
supportive of this global, free market entrepreneurialism.

Okay, moving right along.

Napster got shut down because it was centralized. BitTorrent took over, and
has not been shut down because it's not centralized.

The network that supports cryptocurrencies is also decentralized.  It's a
***distributed*** Network, and can't be shut down. Certainly, it can be
shut down locally. but since it's global, that means that -- absent a total
crash of the internet, it can't be shut down. And that means that anyone
with the price of a cup of coffee can issue their own money on the Ethereum
network, and sell that money, and that they can't be shut down.

Print your own currency, generate a "wallet"(ie account) specifically for
your currency, mount it on an exchange, schedule a sale, advertise your
project, and become your own internet entrepreneur.  All for the price of a
cup of coffee.

Check out proof.com, they've made the process turn-key.

That's what the ICO phenomenon makes possible. As an example of the radical
nature of this development, I give you Elon Musk. He had to code PayPal,
build a company worth billions of dollars, and then sell his stake for
hundreds of millions of dollars, in order to have the resources to begin to
work on the things he really wanted to do: electric cars, Mars colony,
Etc.   Now, all you need is the price of a cup of coffee.

My venture, Pathfinder Capital, from the start, took the approach that
established companies would be unwilling to accept the risk associated with
the unregulated wild west form of ICO. They would wait for regulatory
safety before taking advantage of the ICO funding opportunity. Pathfinder
is putting together a program to provide them with that safety. That will
unlock the funding needs of 1.2 trillion dollars worth of small and
medium-sized tech companies with equity currently trapped in VC portfolios.
Come December, I will be heading to Washington with my investment banker
partner to lobby the House Financial Services Committee to create a
licensing protocol for investment banking in the cryptocurrency space.
 The creation of a certification process for ICOs -- legalizing them --
will free-up billions of dollars of currently-trapped equity, turning it
into liquid investment capital, and -- aspirationally -- fostering an
economic boom.  Then Pathfinder -- the premier investment bank in the
crypto space -- yeehah! -- will escort an abundance of clients to
regululatory safety with SEC-certified, fully compliant ICO funding.
That's the plan.

As a licensed investment bank, Pathfinder will evaluate individual ICO
candidates, processing only those that are legitimate, thus aiding the SEC
and the greater ICO community in policing the ICO space and protecting the
vulnerable public -- widows and orphans -- from bad actors.

The crypto space is going through a rapid evolutionary process.  To much,
too dynamic to describe here, even if I knew it all, which i do not.

Interesting times indeed.

And by the way, yes, it's a bubble.  But like the tech bubble which, on
bursting, left behind the digital world we now live in.  When the crypto
bubble bursts, it too will leave behind an "upgraded" world economic model.

See you there.

Best, Jeff Davis

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                    Ray Charles
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From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Thu Nov 30 20:38:30 2017
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 13:38:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkNqbEZUOCS_j7rg5K5kcDHg2wX2wphYwyLPEiHS-nV8kA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkNqbEZUOCS_j7rg5K5kcDHg2wX2wphYwyLPEiHS-nV8kA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-ontsqwOFv5mAuQjjcmca+wMJe4jn3hMtCQ0eCh6-yN_AUA@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, exciting news Jeff, thanks for letting us know about all that.

I'd be interested to know how many people here think Ether, or any other
crypto currency, will vastly outgrow Bitcoin durring the next few years.

Brent

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> A quick response.
>
> The SEC guy is a cop. That's what the SEC does, looks around for someone
> to slap the cuffs on and "Book 'em, Dano." The ICO phenomenon confronts him
> with activity that he -- actually  the SEC --  would under normal
> circumstances, be responsible for policing. But these are anything but
> normal circumstances. The fact is, that the ICO phenomenon is unhackable,
> uncrashable, and uncontrollable. When I say uncontrollable I mean that the
> SEC is jurisdictionally constrained. It is the SEC of the United States,
> not the SEC of the world. Consequently any jurisdiction that decides to
> allow the unregulated, wild west ICO activity  is free to do so. And it
> only takes one. Among the two hundred Sovereign Nations there are bound to
> be plenty that will want the profits that will come to them by their
> sponsorship of an ICO "sanctuary". Switzerland, Malta, and Singapore are
> already halfway there.
>
> Stathis is right when he says, "There are no rules at all."   And the SEC
> cop mentality can't handle that kind of freedom. The single greatest
> sin/crime to the authoritarian mindset is a challenge to their power. And
> the ICO phenomena is a great big "f*** you" to the authoritarian mindset.
> No surprise therefor, that the "ex-cop" hates it and that the New York
> Times publishes his point of view.
>
> Stathis is also correct when he says that a very substantial fraction of
> the ICOs are well, let's just say, not serious. That said, nobody is
> holding a gun to anybody's head to get them to fork over their money. It's
> all voluntary. It's freedom. It's a Libertarian ideal. It's caveat emptor.
> It's "Be a big boy now, grow up, and look out for yourself, smartly". Which
> is why I find it a bit puzzling that more folks on the list aren't
> supportive of this global, free market entrepreneurialism.
>
> Okay, moving right along.
>
> Napster got shut down because it was centralized. BitTorrent took over,
> and has not been shut down because it's not centralized.
>
> The network that supports cryptocurrencies is also decentralized.  It's a
> ***distributed*** Network, and can't be shut down. Certainly, it can be
> shut down locally. but since it's global, that means that -- absent a total
> crash of the internet, it can't be shut down. And that means that anyone
> with the price of a cup of coffee can issue their own money on the Ethereum
> network, and sell that money, and that they can't be shut down.
>
> Print your own currency, generate a "wallet"(ie account) specifically for
> your currency, mount it on an exchange, schedule a sale, advertise your
> project, and become your own internet entrepreneur.  All for the price of a
> cup of coffee.
>
> Check out proof.com, they've made the process turn-key.
>
> That's what the ICO phenomenon makes possible. As an example of the
> radical nature of this development, I give you Elon Musk. He had to code
> PayPal, build a company worth billions of dollars, and then sell his stake
> for hundreds of millions of dollars, in order to have the resources to
> begin to work on the things he really wanted to do: electric cars, Mars
> colony, Etc.   Now, all you need is the price of a cup of coffee.
>
> My venture, Pathfinder Capital, from the start, took the approach that
> established companies would be unwilling to accept the risk associated with
> the unregulated wild west form of ICO. They would wait for regulatory
> safety before taking advantage of the ICO funding opportunity. Pathfinder
> is putting together a program to provide them with that safety. That will
> unlock the funding needs of 1.2 trillion dollars worth of small and
> medium-sized tech companies with equity currently trapped in VC portfolios.
> Come December, I will be heading to Washington with my investment banker
> partner to lobby the House Financial Services Committee to create a
> licensing protocol for investment banking in the cryptocurrency space.
>  The creation of a certification process for ICOs -- legalizing them --
> will free-up billions of dollars of currently-trapped equity, turning it
> into liquid investment capital, and -- aspirationally -- fostering an
> economic boom.  Then Pathfinder -- the premier investment bank in the
> crypto space -- yeehah! -- will escort an abundance of clients to
> regululatory safety with SEC-certified, fully compliant ICO funding.
> That's the plan.
>
> As a licensed investment bank, Pathfinder will evaluate individual ICO
> candidates, processing only those that are legitimate, thus aiding the SEC
> and the greater ICO community in policing the ICO space and protecting the
> vulnerable public -- widows and orphans -- from bad actors.
>
> The crypto space is going through a rapid evolutionary process.  To much,
> too dynamic to describe here, even if I knew it all, which i do not.
>
> Interesting times indeed.
>
> And by the way, yes, it's a bubble.  But like the tech bubble which, on
> bursting, left behind the digital world we now live in.  When the crypto
> bubble bursts, it too will leave behind an "upgraded" world economic model.
>
> See you there.
>
> Best, Jeff Davis
>
>           "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                                                     Ray Charles
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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