From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 00:02:49 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 19:02:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] coffee
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbr0ydJef=8AF+StTdc6e4E-kjN+xfpHHxGfVA_KCKOog@mail.gmail.com>

Consumer Reports did ratings of coffee beans.  Ethiopian took all 18 places
- most Yirgacheffe, my favorite.  From $10 to nearly $30 a pound.

Get a Presto popcorn maker, take the top off and leave it off, put in
exactly 2/3 c of unroasted beans (averaging about $7 a pound for
Yirgacheffe or any of the other Ethiopian coffees I buy from
SweetMarias.com), get a stirring stick about three feet long, and turn it
on.  Stir until you unplug it.  Less than five minutes later you will be
done.  Decant the beans to a single layer and let dry - no need for any
complicated coffee machine settings to accomplish this.

The beans need about three hours after roasting for some chemical reactions
to take place.  Less than 2/3 cup and the beans will jump out of the
roaster.  More I have not tried.  I drink three cups a day and have to
roast maybe once a week or so.

You can also buy decaf beans unroasted and mix them with the regular ones.
About 1/3 of my roast is decaf.

I have not estimated the cost per cup or pound, but of course it is far,
far cheaper and you can experiment with different roasts levels, and with
dry versus wet processed beans.  It will leave odors if you do it inside,
but they are not objectionable.  If you roast to the French level it will
smoke, so take it outside.

I have bought coffee roasters costing hundreds of dollars and this is the
best method I have used.  And every one of them have broken or quit
somehow. I still have my first Presto - about four years now.

Tell me where else you can get cheaper coffee, or have so much control over
the roast.  I cannot imagine a person who does not have the ten minutes or
so a week to provide themselves with the best coffees at bargain basement
prices.

Then I grind them with an expensive burr machine to a coarse texture and
use my Thermos French press to brew them - four minutes.  Other French
presses, usually glass, won't keep the coffee hot.  It makes about three
cups.  Some people use a cheap grinder with blades and say they can't tell
the difference.

Bill W/Dad/etc.
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 01:38:34 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:38:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro
In-Reply-To: <004201d321ef$6de1c7d0$49a55770$@att.net>
References: <004201d321ef$6de1c7d0$49a55770$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLF_Nz2jZFXe92bxLhBudr1ApCPE8CBN1L+LWATTfJh1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Aug 30, 2017 8:41 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

Hear that Universities?  No cave-person parties, none!

Can we appropriate themes from fiction?

I know cosplay is growing but at the same time franchises worry about fan
fiction diluting the brand.

Victorian-era steampunk parties. No IP infringement, plenty of opportunity
for creative mischief, nobody has their culture appropriated.  Perhaps
also; alternate future as predicted in the 1950's - do refrain from any
"World of Tomorrow" references unless you want reanimated cyborg Walt
Disney attacking you with lawyers. :)
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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep  1 04:28:09 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:28:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbLF_Nz2jZFXe92bxLhBudr1ApCPE8CBN1L+LWATTfJh1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004201d321ef$6de1c7d0$49a55770$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLF_Nz2jZFXe92bxLhBudr1ApCPE8CBN1L+LWATTfJh1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401d322da$b7a9cd90$26fd68b0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:39 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro

 

On Aug 30, 2017 8:41 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:

Hear that Universities?  No cave-person parties, none!

>?Can we appropriate themes from fiction? 

 

NO!  That would be blatant discrimination against Illiterate-Americans, a disrespectful expression of Lexile-privilege.  Out with it. 

 

 

>?I know cosplay is growing but at the same time franchises worry about fan fiction diluting the brand?

 

This would be a violation of the sacred American value of meme-ownership.  Out it goes.

 

 

 

>?Victorian-era steampunk parties?

 

I have Victorian era ancestors, Episcopalians all the way back.  I would be so offended.  Out.

 

 

 

>? alternate future as predicted in the 1950's?

 

Too late, that future is already happening.  Reference Orwell?s Nineteen Eighty Four.  Read it and weep.

 

 

 

>?- do refrain from any "World of Tomorrow" references unless you want reanimated cyborg Walt Disney attacking you with lawyers. :)

 

I hear Max has Disney down there at Alcor.

 

spike

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep  1 14:38:31 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 07:38:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
Message-ID: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>

 

Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel's ventures.

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-o
ffshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel

 

He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
government prevent new therapies and drugs.

 

Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they can
just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering expense
of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.

 

Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don't
worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.  

 

The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St. Kitts,
including (drum roll) American citizens.  ("GASP!" they gasped.)  Thiel's
detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical part?  (Going
around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!) Americans?
(Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US citizens?))) 

 

Thiel's argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
nothing.

 

What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually
prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other
investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and
that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they
follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations
willing to take chance.

 

Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:26:53 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 08:26:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <4B5CB98A-96A0-4CCA-839A-A24ECF705E49@gmail.com>

On Sep 1, 2017, at 7:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote: 
> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>  
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>  
> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>  
> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>  
> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA. 
>  
> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St. Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)  Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical part?  (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!) Americans?  (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US citizens?)))
>  
> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is nothing.
>  
> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations willing to take chance.
>  
> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.

Not that I support the FDA here, but the only possible outcomes of vaccine testing are NOT limited to either it works or nothing changes. There's the risk of other complications too.

That said, it seems like it's merely a case of the imperial government regulators not liking someone finding a workaround to their rules.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:00:28 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 17:00:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfvJMH4XfBCHWbYMjwMigyjCkAdu-oUQW3ASu0On3dCKQ@mail.gmail.com>

My insight: if I am sick and the only treatment that offers some hope
is risky and only available in remote places, I'll go here and FUCK
regulations.

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 4:38 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>
>
>
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>
>
>
> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
> costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
> means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
> never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
> government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>
>
>
> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they can
> just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering expense
> of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>
>
>
> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>
>
>
> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St. Kitts,
> including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)  Thiel?s
> detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical part?  (Going
> around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!) Americans?
> (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US citizens?)))
>
>
>
> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
> nothing.
>
>
>
> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
> in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually
> prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other
> investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and
> that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they
> follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations
> willing to take chance.
>
>
>
> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:51:05 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 10:51:05 -0500
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZBG6E21ekn5LCcPHLpLfxBRxcbW4ZrsTAmnVF6hhd1vg@mail.gmail.com>

spike wrote

>
>
> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
> costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
> means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
> never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
> government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>
>
>
> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they
> can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering
> expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>

?*Europe tests drugs and are not limited to those accepted here.  I think
there are quite a few accepted there but not here.*?

>
>
> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>
>
>
> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St.
> Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)
> Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical
> part?  (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!)
> Americans?  (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US
> citizens?)))
>
>
>
> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
> nothing.
>
>
?Q*uestion - a vaccine works by preventing the disease, so the people who
had herpes were improper test subjects, assuming that it is not a therapy
as well as a vaccine.  Is that right?*

>
>
> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
> in the USA?
>

?*Yes - and this is common I hear. Plenty of people go to Mexico and Europe
for procedures and therapies not available here.  Here we are trapped by
Big Pharm.*
?

> Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually prevents
> disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other investors
> recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and that the
> approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they follow
> suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations
> willing to take chance.
>
>

*I think this is the case in many parts of the world - think of China  I
find nothing wrong here except for my question above.*?

?  bill w?

>
>
> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 16:15:16 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 11:15:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro
In-Reply-To: <005401d322da$b7a9cd90$26fd68b0$@att.net>
References: <004201d321ef$6de1c7d0$49a55770$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLF_Nz2jZFXe92bxLhBudr1ApCPE8CBN1L+LWATTfJh1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d322da$b7a9cd90$26fd68b0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjFpY_dx+vvX1qYCLW4+brn_8Xe6r3Y+UB+aTOOL3ZhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mike or spike wrote:

Hear that Universities?  No cave-person parties, none!

----------------

Harvard, I read, is going to get rid of GReek frats.  Hear the alums howl
and threaten donations.  Bad news is, Harvard already could fund a
good-sized country.  I think this is just madness to the extreme.  Did
anyone reading this ever get kicked out of a Greek, German, Cajun, etc.
festival you attended?  I think they were glad to get my money and validate
their culture.  I been welcomed everywhere and they were especially
impressed with my dancing to their music and their dance steps.  (could be
there is another interpretation there, based on my ability to look like a
drunk giraffe while dancing). But the polka is easy - macarena NOT.

bill w


On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 11:28 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Mike Dougherty
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:39 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro
>
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2017 8:41 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> Hear that Universities?  No cave-person parties, none!
>
> >?Can we appropriate themes from fiction?
>
>
>
> NO!  That would be blatant discrimination against Illiterate-Americans, a
> disrespectful expression of Lexile-privilege.  Out with it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?I know cosplay is growing but at the same time franchises worry about
> fan fiction diluting the brand?
>
>
>
> This would be a violation of the sacred American value of meme-ownership.
> Out it goes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Victorian-era steampunk parties?
>
>
>
> I have Victorian era ancestors, Episcopalians all the way back.  I would
> be so offended.  Out.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >? alternate future as predicted in the 1950's?
>
>
>
> Too late, that future is already happening.  Reference Orwell?s Nineteen
> Eighty Four.  Read it and weep.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?- do refrain from any "World of Tomorrow" references unless you want
> reanimated cyborg Walt Disney attacking you with lawyers. :)
>
>
>
> I hear Max has Disney down there at Alcor.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 15:33:15 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 08:33:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQB6BcXyp3QBmnggwjq5AFPx6HpztK1zuY8kVxk919UJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sep 1, 2017 7:55 AM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
nothing.

Not so.  The treatment could kill the subjects, or turn their genitals
(urethras included) into bloody, painful,
in-hospitals-for-the-rest-of-their-short-lives messes, or worse.  The
clinical trials are intended to limit that and other problems, make certain
they do not afflict a lot of people - and make sure the treatment works.

 What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
in the USA?

Yes.  But also one that seems proven, so getting the money for FDA trials
would be easier.

Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually prevents
disease instead of getting the user stoned?

Medicine of any form is not "kinda like" cocaine, despite any superficial
similarity of legal status.  For one, not all countries outside the US have
the same laws.  For another, mere possession of medicine in the US is not a
crime, even if it is not yet FDA approved.

Imagine if other investors recognize that there are markets for drugs
outside the USA and that the approval process here has gone from difficult
to absurd.  Then they follow suit and create new classes of drugs and
therapies using populations willing to take chance.

You think the big pharma companies are not already well aware of this, and
using it where it makes sense?  For all the expense of FDA trials, they are
kind of the gold standard: if even the FDA signs off on a new drug, you can
usually sell it throughout most of the Western world, with confidence there
will be no hidden side effect to ruin all the money you have sunk into
setting up huge factories for it.
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From gsantostasi at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:23:43 2017
From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 13:23:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>

Too much regulation.
It is obvious.
Same thing happens with cryptomarkets.

What are supposed to be well intentioned laws end up to do exactly the
opposite of what they laws were intended for. Unless the intention was
really different from what the appearances tell.

So let's do financial business in Singapore and medical development in
third world countries. America will catch up eventually, in particular when
business is hurt.



On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 9:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>
>
>
> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-
> investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>
>
>
> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
> costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
> means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
> never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
> government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>
>
>
> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they
> can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering
> expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>
>
>
> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>
>
>
> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St.
> Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)
> Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical
> part?  (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!)
> Americans?  (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US
> citizens?)))
>
>
>
> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
> nothing.
>
>
>
> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
> in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually
> prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other
> investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and
> that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then
> they follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using
> populations willing to take chance.
>
>
>
> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 18:32:34 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 13:32:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZQGdMR5RP2Ak5JtDviDDAOBGEDsAH1_fO4ZqeWH3jw5Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Too much regulation.
> It is obvious.
> Same thing happens with cryptomarkets.
>
> What are supposed to be well intentioned laws end up to do exactly the
> opposite of what they laws were intended for. Unless the intention was
> really different from what the appearances tell.
>
> So let's do financial business in Singapore and medical development in
> third world countries. America will catch up eventually, in particular when
> business is hurt.
> ?----------------
>
?American pharms won't research plant remedies because they can't patent
them.  I think my curcumin and tumeric work as well as nsaids for my
osteoarthritis, as i said earlier.  It was a wakeup call for me about the
power of supplements.

bill w?


> ?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 9:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigatio
>> n-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>>
>>
>>
>> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug
>> test costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.
>> This means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial
>> investment can never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in
>> place by the US government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they
>> can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering
>> expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
>> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
>> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St.
>> Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)
>> Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical
>> part?  (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!)
>> Americans?  (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US
>> citizens?)))
>>
>>
>>
>> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
>> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
>> nothing.
>>
>>
>>
>> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do
>> FDA testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is
>> illegal in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it
>> actually prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if
>> other investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA
>> and that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then
>> they follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using
>> populations willing to take chance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Sep  1 22:00:46 2017
From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 22:00:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro (spike)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.12.1504279627.3295.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.12.1504279627.3295.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <223102898.2139286.1504303246783@mail.yahoo.com>

Spike, the alternative is that frat parties do what UK campus parties do - have a "pimps and hoes" theme, because old-fashioned misogyny never goes out of fashion. Besides, dressing outrageously and acting in an overly sexualised manner cuts to the chase of what much campus nightlife is REALLY about - the chance to hook up or fail ridiculously trying.
The costume party decision can cause real trouble - Prince Harry got in trouble for wearing an Afrika Korps costume to a "Colonists and Natives" party. Everyone was shocked by him wearing a Nazi uniform, but if the great-grandson of the last empress of India and descendent of Kings and Queens in whose name many colonial military actions were taken had actually worn a British uniform he'd probably have outraged an entire nation and been branded a disgrace to the uniform - so perhaps with hindsight dressing as a Nazi soldier was the less outrageous option. What strange lives the super-aristocratic must live.
Tom
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Sep  2 03:05:07 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2017 20:05:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] [Meta] Server not archiving posts?
Message-ID: <8de9lyf1t1n4kpfch0pyy2d1.1504321507140@email.android.com>

Just noticed the server doesn't have anything archived since June.

http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/

Is this remediable?

Stuart LaForge




From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 07:16:11 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 09:16:11 +0200
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJye_Pq1W4js5L760Knj-o5w-QSTnWQy3qche6jCov7_aFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye_Pq1W4js5L760Knj-o5w-QSTnWQy3qche6jCov7_aFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfoV6a1XLcz+G26=MbtwaQ==2ipHEv3tpDWY4OSxyBMxg@mail.gmail.com>

Good article:
http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/vaccines-peter-thiel-and-a-journalistic

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:55 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree with Giovanni. Let's show nanny-state regulators the mid
> finger and do financial business in Singapore and medical development
> in third world countries.
>
> Sorry if I sound too cynical, but I find it very easy to explain
> over-regulation. It is big business for the bureaucrats who can enrich
> themselves taking bribes. When a person does in it's called blackmail,
> when the mob does it it's called protection racket, when the
> government does it it's called regulation.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
> <gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Too much regulation.
>> It is obvious.
>> Same thing happens with cryptomarkets.
>>
>> What are supposed to be well intentioned laws end up to do exactly the
>> opposite of what they laws were intended for. Unless the intention was
>> really different from what the appearances tell.
>>
>> So let's do financial business in Singapore and medical development in third
>> world countries. America will catch up eventually, in particular when
>> business is hurt.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 9:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
>>> costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
>>> means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
>>> never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
>>> government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they
>>> can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering
>>> expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
>>> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
>>> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St.
>>> Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)
>>> Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical part?
>>> (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!) Americans?
>>> (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US citizens?)))
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
>>> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
>>> nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
>>> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
>>> in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually
>>> prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other
>>> investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and
>>> that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they
>>> follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations
>>> willing to take chance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> spike
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>



From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep  2 04:55:32 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 06:55:32 +0200
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJye_Pq1W4js5L760Knj-o5w-QSTnWQy3qche6jCov7_aFg@mail.gmail.com>

I agree with Giovanni. Let's show nanny-state regulators the mid
finger and do financial business in Singapore and medical development
in third world countries.

Sorry if I sound too cynical, but I find it very easy to explain
over-regulation. It is big business for the bureaucrats who can enrich
themselves taking bribes. When a person does in it's called blackmail,
when the mob does it it's called protection racket, when the
government does it it's called regulation.


On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
<gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
> Too much regulation.
> It is obvious.
> Same thing happens with cryptomarkets.
>
> What are supposed to be well intentioned laws end up to do exactly the
> opposite of what they laws were intended for. Unless the intention was
> really different from what the appearances tell.
>
> So let's do financial business in Singapore and medical development in third
> world countries. America will catch up eventually, in particular when
> business is hurt.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 1, 2017 at 9:38 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Big news story today about one of Peter Thiel?s ventures.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.thedailybeast.com/authorities-launch-investigation-of-unethical-offshore-herpes-trial-backed-by-peter-thiel
>>
>>
>>
>> He wanted to test a vaccine for herpes, but in the USA, any such drug test
>> costs billions to control and jump through all the government hoops.  This
>> means that any treatment which cannot make back that initial investment can
>> never be approved by the FDA.  So the protections put in place by the US
>> government prevent new therapies and drugs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since many countries do not have anything analogous to the US FDA, they
>> can just use the drugs developed and approved by the US.  The staggering
>> expense of FDA approval prevents new medications all over the world.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thiel was being himself: he went to Mexico and Australia where they don?t
>> worry too much about these kinds of things and tested the vaccines without
>> all the costly control and oversight required by the FDA.
>>
>>
>>
>> The big deal is that they used test subjects in the Caribbean in St.
>> Kitts, including (drum roll) American citizens.  (?GASP!? they gasped.)
>> Thiel?s detractors are saying this is unethical (What is the unethical part?
>> (Going around the American FDA or experimenting on actual (gasp!) Americans?
>> (Would it be an ethical experiment had it disallowed US citizens?)))
>>
>>
>>
>> Thiel?s argument: the volunteers who took the vaccines already had herpes
>> and did not have access to treatment.  So the worst that could happen is
>> nothing.
>>
>>
>>
>> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
>> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
>> in the USA?  Would it then be kinda like cocaine except that it actually
>> prevents disease instead of getting the user stoned?  Imagine if other
>> investors recognize that there are markets for drugs outside the USA and
>> that the approval process here has gone from difficult to absurd.  Then they
>> follow suit and create new classes of drugs and therapies using populations
>> willing to take chance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ethics hipsters among us, do offer your insights please.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From tara at taramayastales.com  Fri Sep  1 22:51:08 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 15:51:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] theme parties must go retro, waaaaay retro
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbjFpY_dx+vvX1qYCLW4+brn_8Xe6r3Y+UB+aTOOL3ZhQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004201d321ef$6de1c7d0$49a55770$@att.net>
 <CAOJFdbLF_Nz2jZFXe92bxLhBudr1ApCPE8CBN1L+LWATTfJh1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d322da$b7a9cd90$26fd68b0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbjFpY_dx+vvX1qYCLW4+brn_8Xe6r3Y+UB+aTOOL3ZhQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1F39803D-4979-4537-A11F-A1CF33B86AE6@taramayastales.com>


> On Sep 1, 2017, at 9:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike or spike wrote:
> 
> Hear that Universities?  No cave-person parties, none!
> 
?Hear that Universities? No parties, none!?

There, fixed that for you.

SJWs are the new Puritans, in the Salem-witch-hunting phase of their existence. 

They hate joy.



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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Sep  2 13:47:52 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2017 06:47:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfoV6a1XLcz+G26=MbtwaQ==2ipHEv3tpDWY4OSxyBMxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002101d3232f$fcaf5360$f60dfa20$@att.net>
 <CAL+RtPc-oYivVtTfy+bGUq5DbLXYGbwKV2HqhOO_CqQb2krshw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJye_Pq1W4js5L760Knj-o5w-QSTnWQy3qche6jCov7_aFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfoV6a1XLcz+G26=MbtwaQ==2ipHEv3tpDWY4OSxyBMxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009901d323f2$13286ab0$39794010$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 12:16 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] thiel goes south

Good article:

http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/vaccines-peter-thiel-and-a-journalistic


Giulio, thanks, this is the reason I read Reason rather than Daily Beast.

In partial defense of news agencies, the kind of hit piece on Thiel they put in Beast sells ads, and ads are how news agencies stay in business.  I expect the mainstream will pound Thiel without mercy for his having spoken at the Republican convention (How could Theil sell out?  He's gay! they bleated.)  OK so Thiel-bashing sells.  He is the only openly-gay guy you will ever see savaged in the mainstream press.  So, they sell it.

Compare the typical article in Reason to any other news/analysis source I know of.  Compare for even-handed balance, for excellent intellectual content, for sanity, anything that is important to you, everything that is important to me.

If I were one of the participants in Thiel's trial and read that Beast article I too would be writing about this journalistic malpractice, where the Beast was far more interested in attacking the rich guy, Thiel, than in telling the truth.  These trials were conducted with fully informed consenting volunteers and it worked.

A comment by Daily Beast's John Avlon says it all:  "Our commitment is to be nonpartisan but not neutral...We're going to hit both sides where appropriate. We're not going to toe any partisan line."

OK they will hit both sides he says, without realizing there are more than two sides.  He supposes the other sides don't count?  Or assumes he will hit them always?

Flight of fancy for the Daily Beast: what if... one of the two sides (or some other side) does something good?  Could that ever happen?  Will the Beast hit them anyway?

This is a case where a wealthy Libertarian did a good thing.  The press has no idea how to handle it.  That doesn't sell ads.  It doesn't fit the script.

Way to go Peter.  May you live forever.

spike








From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep  4 03:43:26 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 20:43:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test2
Message-ID: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>

Test2

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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 05:18:39 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 22:18:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test2
In-Reply-To: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>
References: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQtG6RYhX4npnfHAyBazkdtmSJdv+xBuc+jBu8_eJcV2g@mail.gmail.com>

Passed2

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 8:43 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> Test2
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 06:21:26 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 08:21:26 +0200
Subject: [ExI] test2
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQtG6RYhX4npnfHAyBazkdtmSJdv+xBuc+jBu8_eJcV2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNQtG6RYhX4npnfHAyBazkdtmSJdv+xBuc+jBu8_eJcV2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfB8Sa0vRm9byhtngVRpCtJtEX4w3tFPt5BZ2tqzpJ9yg@mail.gmail.com>

test 3

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Passed2
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 8:43 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> Test2
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 05:58:39 2017
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2017 22:58:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test2
In-Reply-To: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>
References: <001301d3252f$f870f7c0$e952e740$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpEZ8uCt29AaxQtSSPk-GGHN1oJ=SOWC=VNbdXQbcFRR5w@mail.gmail.com>

test

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm>

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 8:43 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> Test2
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Sep  4 12:02:00 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 05:02:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dark mass = matter that is "elsewhere"?
Message-ID: <329f2dac1796d475292d92288c03f43d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

?>Boltzmann ?
?>is useless in finding the speed of particles in a gas in temperatures more
>than a hundred thousand degrees or so, you could go a bit higher if the
>particles are very heavy and a bit less if the particles are very light.?

A great mind is never useless. Let's forget about partices and the
velocity distribution for a moment. The more fundamental thermodynamic
concept is the Equipartition of Energy Theorem.

The theorem states that the total energy of a system is shared equally
amongst all available degrees of freedom of a system such that each degree
of freedom i contains Ei=kT/2 energy. These degrees of freedom can be
anything from velocities of particles, to the jiggle of complex molecules,
to rotatonal states, to the normal modes of vibration of a quantum system
i.e. quantum eigenstates.

This theorem is why entropy always increases. It is why opening a pressure
valve on a container of compressed gas causes its contents to spray out
and diffuse throughout the room. It is why ice melts, entangled quantum
states decohere, and systems tend toward equilibrium. It is the backbone
of thermodynamics.

That being said, what I am suggesting is immediately after the big bang,
the universe was a superposition of 6 normal modes of vibration or
eigenstates. Why 6? Because hyperspherical harmonics would control the
vibrational modes of a 4-dimensional manifold. You can read about
hyperspherical harmonics here:
https://www.ipnl.in2p3.fr/perso/richard/PhysRepHTML/baryon1se27.html#x35-330005.2

4-D hyperspherical harmonics are hard to visualize but here is a picture
of the 3-D spherical harmonics so you get some idea of what they are like:

https://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/mlc-downloads/downloads/submissions/43856/versions/9/screenshot.jpg

There is only 1 zero degree harmonic of a hypersphere at L=0 which could
be considered the single quantum state of the big bang singularity. The
very next quantum energy level for the big bang would be at L=1 which has
6 orthogonal harmonics with degenerate energies.

Because they are degenerate, energy would partition itself equally amongst
the 1 zeroeth degree and 6 1st degree hyperspherical modes. The next
level, L=2, has 21 vibrational modes, but fortunately, we don't need to
worry about those modes because inflation kicks in before then and makes
the formerly quantum state macroscopic and *causal*.

?>Saying the speed of light is the fundamental speed limit in the universe
>is true but a bit misleading, it would be better to say that 186,000 miles
>a second is the fundamental speed of causation and light is just one of the
>things that reaches that limit. The effect gravity has is also limited by
>that speed so you could just as easily say light moves at the speed of
>gravity. The strong and weak nuclear forces are also limited by that same
>fundamental speed limit of causation.

I realize this. What the ratio of the 4-volumes of the light cone to the 
hypersphere suggest is that the degrees of freedom available to universe
are divided up into timelike and spacelike regions and the spacelike
regions hold most (1-1/(6*pi)) ~ .94.7% of the spacetime which happens to
coincide very closely with the proportion of the mass that is "dark" in
the universe.

The superluminal thing is an attempt to explain how stuff that is
spacelike separated from us could affect us gravitationally. I am not
commited to FTL baryons. Other possibilities spring to mind. Such as
networks of microscopic wormholes instead of space noodles.

These microwormholes could gravitationally connect the six distinct causal
cells that are separated by the speed of light and closed to the other
fundamental forces. Galaxies beyond the Hubble radius for example or the
nether regions inside a blackhole's event horizon.

>?If that's true then they can never effect any of our observations, but we
>observe that galaxies hold together even though there is not enough regular
>matter in them to produce the required amount of gravity to do so. ?

Yes. That is the whole point of what I am suggesting. Each galaxy seems to
be able to call upon the mass of six similarly massed galaxies to hold
itself together and determine the orbital speed of its outlying stars. And
three of those galaxies could be made of antimatter.

?I don't understand, the title of this thread is "?
Dark mass = FTL baryon
?s"?
?
?".?

Not any more. Forget FTL baryons. Think space-like matter because that is
all my math truly implies. I am just following where my math leads. My
math says that the lightcone / hypersphere 4 volume ratio predicts the
proportion of dark energy by mass in the universe to be (1-1/pi) ~ 68.17%
as compared to the 68.3% as measured by the Planck satellite.

That is within +/- 10^-4 orders of magnitude. That makes my estimate way
more accurate than the QFT guys who were off by 120 orders of magnitude.

If you have alternative explanations for the numbers I am getting from my
calculations, I would love to hear them.


>However if you assume Dark Matter particles are very heavy, from a few
>hundred times the mass of the proton all the way up to the mass of a human
>cell, then they would form filaments and galaxies of regular matter would
>form in that simulated universe, and that is consistent with observation.

Yes but the CDM model predicts a far higher number of dwarf galaxies that
our telescopes tell us are not there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_galaxy_problem

>Physicists have a pretty good understanding of the quark-gluon plasma era
>of the universe but they don't understand Dark Matter, so it must have come
>into existence well before that, and we know very little about that era.

Agreed. There are a great deal many mysteries associated with the big bang.


>Dark Matter particles very rarely fall into the central black hole because
>they'd have to be heading directly toward it and all black holes are very
>small targets.  For a particle of matter (dark or regular it makes no
>difference) in orbit around a black hole (and it will be in orbit unless it
>is heading directly toward it) to actually spiral into it the angular
>momentum of the particle must be reduced and by a lot because the Black
>Hole is so small.  When any sort of matter, dark or regular, gets close to
>a black hole it is moving very fast, but to spiral in it's got to slow down
>and get rid of most of that angular momentum.  Regular particles can do
>that by interacting with other particles, but Dark Matter particles can't
>so unless they're precisely aimed at it they never fall in.

Why wouldn't CDM particles radiate away their angular momentum in the form
of gravitational waves and spiral into the black hole eventually?


Stuart LaForge




From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep  4 13:48:01 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 06:48:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
Message-ID: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>

 

 

 

 

AI hipsters among us perhaps you can offer guidance on an insight, where I
can learn more, etc.

 

We have some common software paradigms the computer science people study in
college, with the usual list which was known back when I was in college, the
one I remembered using the mnemonic IF-POODLES:

 

Imperative

Functional

Procedural

Object Oriented

Declarative

Logic Executable

Symbolic

 

Then the engineering students were taught the Imperative paradigm in the
form of FORTRAN 77 and sent off to work a hopeless 9 to 5 until dead.  The
rest of it was the domain of those ethereal ivory-tower computer scientists
who were introduced to the other six common paradigms and sent off to work a
hopeful 9 to 5 until they retired wealthy at age 40.

 

Well, sometimes it worked that way, but in any case, for some time I have
thought that our fondest AI notions were still somehow missing a paradigm,
that none of these usual suspects were adequate for making the kinds of
inferences we think of as intelligence.  For instance, consider the
following short passage:

 

"Last call, drink up!" rose above the din. 

 

"Do you have any particular specialty?"  

 

"Indeed madam: gynecology, sub-specialty maximally invasive procedures."

 

OK there you have three short sentences which allow the reader to infer a
lot of information: boozy schmoozy singles bar, quarter to 2am, guy who may
or may not be a doctor putting the moves on some open-minded maiden who
appears receptive.

 

Is that approximately what you read from it?  Note that the passage doesn't
say a word (directly) with regard to the time, the profession, the setting,
but we can figure out what is going on there, even if we have no direct
first hand experience (I have never been in a boozy-schmoozy bar (never mind
still awake at closing time (but I read about it.)))  

 

Thought experiment: take a collection of 40 yr olds, give them all IQ tests
and remove everyone who scored over 85.  Now take a bunch of 10 yr olds, IQ
test, remove all who score below about 115.  OK two groups: dumb adults and
smart kids, give them math and reading tests.  The smart kids (as a group)
generally outperform the dumb adults.  Agree?

 

OK now show both of them the Last Call passage.  Nearly all the dumb adults
know what is going on there and almost none of the book-smart kids do.

 

OK so what is the difference between the groups that allows the book-dumb
adults to easily see what the book-smart kids do not?  The grown-ups can
make inferences, based on experience.  The kids lack the necessary
experience.

 

So if we are to get AI to ever achieve the I, we need to somehow give them
experience.  They cannot effectively infer anything without experience,
regardless of how advanced their computing skill.  We need an eighth
programming paradigm I will call Inference-enabled.  

 

In order to enable inference, we need to give the AI experience, and the
only experience we have to offer is our own, which means the AI would need
to learn all the human foibles we have so long struggled and mostly failed
to overcome, such as. well, do I really need to offer a list of human
foibles?  

 

This line of reasoning leads me to the discouraging conclusion that even if
we manage to create inference-enabled software, we would need to train it by
having it read our books (how else?  What books?) and if so, it would become
as corrupt as we are.  The AI we can create would then be like us only more
so.

 

Damn.  

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 16:29:27 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 11:29:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
In-Reply-To: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
References: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa6vi4TRvXjNPVDo7ov_BNdLBbw2UP4Rm4xyqgkLLgLXQ@mail.gmail.com>

 spike  wrote: the AI would need to learn all the human foibles we have so
long struggled and mostly failed to overcome, such as? well, do I really
need to offer a list of human foibles?

-------

bill w Yes, please.  Just categories will be OK, such as cognitive errors
and emotions clouding judgment

---------------

 The AI we can create would then be like us only more so.

----------

bill w  I think it would be 'less so', if you have removed the foibles


Inference from context - if there are AI experts reading this, can I get a
simple answer?  Consider synonyms:  for some words, there are dozens, or
even hundreds of definitions (like 'set')   - how does an AI tell one from
another when in some contexts the synonyms are interchangeable and in some
they are not?  I reckon that there's not a simple answer here.


bill w





On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 8:48 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> AI hipsters among us perhaps you can offer guidance on an insight, where I
> can learn more, etc.
>
>
>
> We have some common software paradigms the computer science people study
> in college, with the usual list which was known back when I was in college,
> the one I remembered using the mnemonic IF-POODLES:
>
>
>
> Imperative
>
> Functional
>
> Procedural
>
> Object Oriented
>
> Declarative
>
> Logic Executable
>
> Symbolic
>
>
>
> Then the engineering students were taught the Imperative paradigm in the
> form of FORTRAN 77 and sent off to work a hopeless 9 to 5 until dead.  The
> rest of it was the domain of those ethereal ivory-tower computer scientists
> who were introduced to the other six common paradigms and sent off to work
> a hopeful 9 to 5 until they retired wealthy at age 40.
>
>
>
> Well, sometimes it worked that way, but in any case, for some time I have
> thought that our fondest AI notions were still somehow missing a paradigm,
> that none of these usual suspects were adequate for making the kinds of
> inferences we think of as intelligence.  For instance, consider the
> following short passage:
>
>
>
> ?Last call, drink up!? rose above the din.
>
>
>
> ?Do you have any particular specialty??
>
>
>
> ?Indeed madam: gynecology, sub-specialty maximally invasive procedures.?
>
>
>
> OK there you have three short sentences which allow the reader to infer a
> lot of information: boozy schmoozy singles bar, quarter to 2am, guy who may
> or may not be a doctor putting the moves on some open-minded maiden who
> appears receptive.
>
>
>
> Is that approximately what you read from it?  Note that the passage
> doesn?t say a word (directly) with regard to the time, the profession, the
> setting, but we can figure out what is going on there, even if we have no
> direct first hand experience (I have never been in a boozy-schmoozy bar
> (never mind still awake at closing time (but I read about it.)))
>
>
>
> Thought experiment: take a collection of 40 yr olds, give them all IQ
> tests and remove everyone who scored over 85.  Now take a bunch of 10 yr
> olds, IQ test, remove all who score below about 115.  OK two groups: dumb
> adults and smart kids, give them math and reading tests.  The smart kids
> (as a group) generally outperform the dumb adults.  Agree?
>
>
>
> OK now show both of them the Last Call passage.  Nearly all the dumb
> adults know what is going on there and almost none of the book-smart kids
> do.
>
>
>
> OK so what is the difference between the groups that allows the book-dumb
> adults to easily see what the book-smart kids do not?  The grown-ups can
> make inferences, based on experience.  The kids lack the necessary
> experience.
>
>
>
> So if we are to get AI to ever achieve the I, we need to somehow give them
> experience.  They cannot effectively infer anything without experience,
> regardless of how advanced their computing skill.  We need an eighth
> programming paradigm I will call Inference-enabled.
>
>
>
> In order to enable inference, we need to give the AI experience, and the
> only experience we have to offer is our own, which means the AI would need
> to learn all the human foibles we have so long struggled and mostly failed
> to overcome, such as? well, do I really need to offer a list of human
> foibles?
>
>
>
> This line of reasoning leads me to the discouraging conclusion that even
> if we manage to create inference-enabled software, we would need to train
> it by having it read our books (how else?  What books?) and if so, it would
> become as corrupt as we are.  The AI we can create would then be like us
> only more so.
>
>
>
> Damn.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 16:13:42 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 09:13:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
In-Reply-To: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
References: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNToSdd_Nf-7dGJWTF4tY+RNYv6-_FeF2VJwWx8mKnzBrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:48 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> This line of reasoning leads me to the discouraging conclusion that even if
> we manage to create inference-enabled software, we would need to train it by
> having it read our books (how else?  What books?) and if so, it would become
> as corrupt as we are.  The AI we can create would then be like us only more
> so.

Books aren't the only source, but this line of reasoning is why I do
not fear the rise of the AIs.  Whether or not mind uploading becomes
possible someday, I suspect our strong-AI children will be essentially
human, not some strange affected robot overlords inherently
antagonistic to humanity.

Now, they may weed out certain inaccurate heuristics over time, as we
have (tried to) weed out things like racism and sexism (which, lest a
reminder be needed, are little more than particularly damaging
inaccurate heuristics: they make predictions that are false too often
to be useful).  Being something that humans do, this too is by
definition a human thing to do, whether or not the AIs carry it to a
degree beyond what unaugmented humans can.  (If being uploaded means I
have memory space for personal details about each of the thousands of
people I interact with in a given month, such that I can care about
them when I interact with them, I'll take it.)


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 19:19:52 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:19:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Fwd: post if appropriate
In-Reply-To: <009e01d325a9$94067bf0$bc1373d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZvAu6+BCBJzetK_b+JU4D5m_LpEqsrbXY_abTFah+0eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <009e01d325a9$94067bf0$bc1373d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZsGafK4CFyijcji_1q3H-yoN4ij+mgQm6n4V2NHGmoKA@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com>
Date: Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 1:13 PM
Subject: RE: post if appropriate
To: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>, spike <spike66 at att.net>






*From:* William Flynn Wallace [mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com]
*Sent:* Monday, September 04, 2017 9:48 AM
*To:* spike <spike66 at att.net>
*Subject:* post if appropriate



https://smile.amazon.com/How-Hippies-Saved-Physics-Counterculture-ebook/dp/
B00530FBUG/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_2609328962?_encoding=
UTF8&_bbid=7592870&ie=UTF8&tag=bookbubemail7-20



Great?  Silly?  Readable by me?  ???



bill w



Oh do post this.  They will love it.  Hippies are great fun on ExI.  Back
in the old days we had a lot of hippies on the list.  I came in post-hippy
and never really understood that culture, so we had great fun with it.  I
am a great fan of Jack Kerouac, once I realized what he was doing and his
brilliance as a writer, but I didn?t understand at all the wackier
counter-culture movement that grew around it.  On the Road was brilliant
work once you realize Jack is writing in Jazz.  Your insights welcome.



spike
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 19:24:23 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 14:24:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNToSdd_Nf-7dGJWTF4tY+RNYv6-_FeF2VJwWx8mKnzBrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNToSdd_Nf-7dGJWTF4tY+RNYv6-_FeF2VJwWx8mKnzBrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZtwaDMb=tQtVO+LZ_4HYWF5q8tO6RM1aaY4pC+2cBeog@mail.gmail.com>

adrian wrote:  I suspect our strong-AI children will be essentially human,
not some strange affected robot overlords inherently antagonistic to
humanity.
-------

Some say that we will put moral sense into the AIs.  And if we install our
abilities but not our faults, then will the AIs see themselves as superior
to us?

bill w

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 6:48 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> > This line of reasoning leads me to the discouraging conclusion that even
> if
> > we manage to create inference-enabled software, we would need to train
> it by
> > having it read our books (how else?  What books?) and if so, it would
> become
> > as corrupt as we are.  The AI we can create would then be like us only
> more
> > so.
>
> Books aren't the only source, but this line of reasoning is why I do
> not fear the rise of the AIs.  Whether or not mind uploading becomes
> possible someday, I suspect our strong-AI children will be essentially
> human, not some strange affected robot overlords inherently
> antagonistic to humanity.
>
> Now, they may weed out certain inaccurate heuristics over time, as we
> have (tried to) weed out things like racism and sexism (which, lest a
> reminder be needed, are little more than particularly damaging
> inaccurate heuristics: they make predictions that are false too often
> to be useful).  Being something that humans do, this too is by
> definition a human thing to do, whether or not the AIs carry it to a
> degree beyond what unaugmented humans can.  (If being uploaded means I
> have memory space for personal details about each of the thousands of
> people I interact with in a given month, such that I can care about
> them when I interact with them, I'll take it.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 19:35:40 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 12:35:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZtwaDMb=tQtVO+LZ_4HYWF5q8tO6RM1aaY4pC+2cBeog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNToSdd_Nf-7dGJWTF4tY+RNYv6-_FeF2VJwWx8mKnzBrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZtwaDMb=tQtVO+LZ_4HYWF5q8tO6RM1aaY4pC+2cBeog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR37G3k=GfaeWvUjgrxnGoK9_qxApLnnZVV2XLKQcH+fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Some say that we will put moral sense into the AIs.  And if we install our
> abilities but not our faults, then will the AIs see themselves as superior
> to us?

Given the definition of "abilities" and "faults", would not such AIs
be superior by definition?


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep  4 21:20:30 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 16:20:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] inference paradigm in ai
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR37G3k=GfaeWvUjgrxnGoK9_qxApLnnZVV2XLKQcH+fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00a401d32584$6d6c4800$4844d800$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNToSdd_Nf-7dGJWTF4tY+RNYv6-_FeF2VJwWx8mKnzBrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZtwaDMb=tQtVO+LZ_4HYWF5q8tO6RM1aaY4pC+2cBeog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNR37G3k=GfaeWvUjgrxnGoK9_qxApLnnZVV2XLKQcH+fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa3maTh7QFx6nJ0q6MLHidUH3vtTJCs9b6REF=JexvQeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 12:24 PM, William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Some say that we will put moral sense into the AIs.  And if we install
> our
> > abilities but not our faults, then will the AIs see themselves as
> superior
> > to us?
>
> Given the definition of "abilities" and "faults", would not such AIs
> be superior by definition?
>
?------------------

Yes.  But would they see themselves as such?  And if so, and if they had a
moral sense, would it not occur to them not to do some things we might have
them do?

Think of Asimov's robot laws:  An AI with those laws installed would not
obey a command to hurt someone, and might tell us that we were wrong and
sinful.

bill w?


> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 01:16:04 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 21:16:04 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dark mass = matter that is "elsewhere"?
In-Reply-To: <329f2dac1796d475292d92288c03f43d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <329f2dac1796d475292d92288c03f43d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0-h17tvuN5GuS5=NXG0HNkrO27L9jsrDDDcEuhYK_eQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Let's forget about partices and the
> ?
> velocity distribution for a moment. The more fundamental thermodynamic
> ?
> concept is the Equipartition of Energy Theorem.
> ?
> The theorem states that the total energy of a system is shared equally
> ?
> amongst all available degrees of freedom of a system such that each degree
> ?
> of freedom i contains Ei=kT/2 energy.


We can't forget about particles because that theorem involved temperature
and you can't have temperature without particles, even light is made pf
particles. It related
the temperature of a system with
?the?
 average
energy
? of the particles in it, and classical physics said the kinetic energy of
a particle is proportional to it's velocity squared but Einstein said that
is only an approximation that only works at modest speeds.     ?

>
?> ?
> This theorem is why entropy always increases.


?
No law of physics alone can explain why entropy always increases, initial
conditions are also involved. The laws of classical physics can explain how
one particle in a system moving in a straight line much faster than average
can transition into a system of lots of particles moving in lots of
different directions that are moving only very slightly faster than they
were before. And it can explain how even though the second system has as
much energy as the first less work can be extracted from it because work is
a force applied in a specific direction not in lots of different
directions. And because there are more ways to be disordered than ordered
the laws of l physics can explain why Entropy will be greater tomorrow than
it is today. But
?
laws
?
can not explain why Entropy was less yesterday than today, after all if
there are far more disordered states than ordered ones
?
then
?
the probability is overwhelming that the previous state of universe was one
of those states.

The only way out of this mess is to remember that the laws of physics are
not all you need to know, you also need to know the initial conditions, you
need to  assume that everything started out in a very low entropy state.
?
?T?
here was a discontinuity at one end of the time line called the Big Bang
and, although we don?t yet know enough to be certain, there may not even be
another end to
?that?
?
line and it may go on endlessly.

?> ?
> the CDM model predicts a far higher number of dwarf galaxies that
> ?
> our telescopes tell us are not there.


?Whatever problems the Cold Dark Model has they are trivial compared ?to

the hot Dark Matter Model's problems..?


> ?> ?
> I am not
> ?
> commited to FTL baryons.


?That's good, I think it would be a good idea to abandon the FTL stuff.?



> ?> ?
> Other possibilities spring to mind. Such as
> ?
> networks of microscopic wormholes instead of space noodles.These
> microwormholes could gravitationally connect the six distinct causal
> ?
> cells that are separated by the speed of light and closed to the other
> ?
> fundamental forces.


?If they're not causally disconnected from ALL forces including gravity
then you could in theory send a message faster than light, and that means (
unless you dump Einstein completely and start from square one) you could
communicate with the past, and that produces logical contradictions.     ?



> ?> ?
> Galaxies beyond the Hubble radius for example


?Unless Einstein is dead wrong (and it's not wise?

?to bet against Einstein) those galaxies can never have any effect on us,
and because the universe is not only expanding but accelerating the number
of galaxies that can effect us is
decreasing. In the far far future our universe will consist of the Milky
Way and nothing else, like what astronomers thought the entire universe
consisted of before about 1920 when Edwin Hubble discovered that other
galaxies besides ours
?existed ?
in the universe. It turns out astronomers before Hubble wen't wrong just
premature.


?> ?
> Forget FTL baryons. Think space-like matter because that is
> ?
> all my math truly implies. I am just following where my math leads. My
> ?
> math says that the lightcone / hypersphere 4 volume ratio predicts the
> ?
> proportion of dark energy by mass in the universe to be (1-1/pi) ~ 68.17%
> ?
> as compared to the 68.3% as measured by the Planck satellite.
> ?
> That is within +/- 10^-4 orders of magnitude. That makes my estimate way
> ?
> more accurate than the QFT guys who were off by 120 orders of magnitude.
>

?
That 120
?
orders of magnitude
?
error concerns Dark Energy not Dark Matter
?
and I haven't heard you say much about that
?
, it's the thing that causes the universe to accelerate. Dark Energy
?
amounts
?
to a repulsive effect that
?
comes from space itself
? and
Einstein predicted
? that could happen.?
And people working with quantum mechanics found that empty space
?
should indeed have a repulsive effect, but the numbers were huge,
?
gigantic
?,?
astronomical, so large that the universe would blow itself
?
apart in far far less
?time ?
than a billionth of a nanosecond.

This was clearly
?
a nonsensical result but most
?
weren't too worried because they
?
felt that once a quantum theory of gravity
?
was discovered a way would be found to cancel this out and the true
?
value of
?
that
?
repulsive effect
?
would be
?
exactly
?
zero.
?
But then less than 20 years ago
?
it was observed that
?it isn't zero, ?
the universe
?is
accelerating, so now theoreticians must find a
?
way to cancel out
?
everything EXCEPT for one part in
?
10^120, a vastly more difficult task.
?
There are only about 10^90 atoms in the observable universe.

>
>> ?> ?
>> Dark Matter particles very rarely fall into the central black hole because
>> ?
>> they'd have to be heading directly toward it and all black holes are very
>> ?
>> small targets.  For a particle of matter (dark or regular it makes no
>> ?
>> difference) in orbit around a black hole (and it will be in orbit unless
>> it
>> ?
>> is heading directly toward it) to actually spiral into it the angular
>> ?
>> momentum of the particle must be reduced and by a lot because the Black
>> ?
>> Hole is so small.  When any sort of matter, dark or regular, gets close to
>> ?
>> a black hole it is moving very fast, but to spiral in it's got to slow
>> down
>> and get rid of most of that angular momentum.  Regular particles can do
>> ?
>> that by interacting with other particles, but Dark Matter particles can't
>> ?
>> so unless they're precisely aimed at it they never fall in.
>
>
> ?> ?
> Why wouldn't CDM particles radiate away their angular momentum in the form
> of gravitational waves and spiral into the black hole eventually?
>

?For the same reason the Earth hasn't radiated away all it's angular
momentum in the form of gravitational waves and fallen into the sun, at the
very modest acceleration the Earth or Dark Matter particles undergo (except
for a very very small number that are aimed almost directly at the tiny
central Black Hole)  ?it would take about a million billion trillion years
or so to make any significant change in the orbit and the universe is only
13.8 billion years old.

John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 04:43:35 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2017 21:43:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB4s1TQDu-4jgokOCbBW_aqvE2ZPd5Z_CNohvinhidzQiw@mail.gmail.com>

 Spike wrote

> What happens if Thiel discovers this vaccine works, but declines to do FDA
> testing?  Then do we have a drug which can be used overseas but is illegal
> in the USA?

Already happened.  The FDA made using stem cells impossible in the US,
calling them a drug and requiring drug protocol testing.  That is, of
course, impossible since you can't use a standard clone of stem cells,
they have to be from the particular person they are being injected
into.

My wife had this done with her knees a little over 5 years ago.  It
was a US company, Regenexx, that developed the process.  Since they
can't deliver the treatment (which involves growing out a substantial
clone of your stem cells) in the US, they set up in the Cayman
Islands.  The local clinic they are in provided LASIC eye treatment
for a long time before the process was approved in the US.

Another problem is when an effective treatment can't make money.  One
such is pterostilbene, a chemical relative of resveratrol (a number of
you are probably taking it).  Apparently, a considerable number of
cancers can be treated with it.  (Google).  Most of the work is being
done in China.

Keith


From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Sep  5 09:18:24 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 11:18:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] thiel goes south
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB4s1TQDu-4jgokOCbBW_aqvE2ZPd5Z_CNohvinhidzQiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB4s1TQDu-4jgokOCbBW_aqvE2ZPd5Z_CNohvinhidzQiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfPHQuGfOkDmjw=jSrbBfKDtDC8Zq5J5C83s1z8WfWHcQ@mail.gmail.com>

"...Novartis priced the drug at $475,000 for one treatment, Bloomberg
reports, ?well below even higher expectations of up to $700,000.?

This raises ethical concerns. Of course, drug development costs money,
and a private company like Novartis is entitled to recover costs and
make a profit. But, in the US, the FDA approval process itself adds
billions of dollars to drug development costs. Therefore, it could be
argued that suffering US patients are ultimately required to pay
hundreds of thousands of dollars each to support inefficient
regulation.

In related news, Peter Thiel and other libertarian investors are
funding an offshore human clinical trial of a herpes vaccine,
?skirting FDA regulations and sparking a heated debate over US safety
rules,? as reported by TechCrunch. As usual, facts play a very minor
role in the heated and heavily politicized debate, but a Reason
article tries to at least get the facts right..."

Note that "to support inefficient regulation" is an understatement. I
worded it this way for a biotech newsletter, but I would use MUCH
stronger words in a political debate.

https://thrivous.com/blogs/views/pulse-31-fda-approves-first-gene-therapy



From sparge at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 00:44:55 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2017 20:44:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Real Time WWII
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cBMo8VM=2fcLTWn15Nr8uqsjqsJGYLj4fYDMNui6-2ew@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know how many tweeters we have here--probably most dismiss it as a
waste of time. I'm mostly a lurker to track musicians I like. I heard about
a really cool application of the platform a couple days ago. If you follow
@RealTimeWWII you'll get updates tracking the progress of WWII in real
time. Apparently it's a six year project and it just recently started over
in 1939.

Since WWIII seems ever more likely, now might be a good time to tune in.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 18:46:15 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 13:46:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Is this who we are?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaB28eNTMKu2ebTOU8ThBQ7BZGN0x2eJuKR6ZRAAsPt1g@mail.gmail.com>

We are creatures easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of
others, lacking critical self-understanding, easily gripped by fantastical
hopes and ambitions.  Our capacity for self-government is spasmodic, and
even while we preen ourselves on our critical and independent, free and
rational decisions, we are the slaves of fashion and opinion and social and
cultural forces of which we are ignorant. It would often be good, and no
signal of disrespect to ourselves, if those who know better could rescue us
from our worst follies.

from Ethics by Simon Blackburn

- opinions please?

bill w
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Wed Sep  6 19:24:02 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 12:24:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
Message-ID: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>


As part of my research for my novels, I watch a lot of YouTube videos about ?bushcraft? and survival skills, and other fun topics like how to build a house for $6000.  While I am very pro-technology, I am leery of any form of ?Cyber Socialism,? a future in which only a few geniuses will have any genuine work to do and everyone else will live off of ?Universal Income? (as serfs lived off the ?charity? of their feudal masters in the Dark Ages), distracted by the bread and circuses of Virtual playgrounds. I don?t want to live on the charity of a global cyber-ruling class, and I doubt that the majority of humanity does either.

I?d rather see technology used to empower individuals, and not just the super geniuses, but the ordinary people, even?dare I say it?the kind of people who may have voted for Trump. Or Jill Stein. Or whoever you hate, but who wouldn?t matter as much if the government combined with huge conglomerates didn?t have such power of our lives. People who want to be independent and useful, on their own terms. 
 
It seems to me that the only real way to do that is to use technology to extend land that families can move onto, develop themselves, in the old frontier fashion. Not at a lower technological level, the way most ?off the grid? types now, but in a way that decentralizes but extends the grid?in a high tech way. Cheap, easy to use tech that turns dead land, like tundra, desert and empty ocean into territory where people can build houses and towns and new states.

Terraforming other planets is still too expensive, but terraforming the more alien parts of the earth seems within reach. There?s a few organizations out there, like the Sea Steading community, which are thinking along the same lines, but I would like to think in terms of reclaiming the hottest and coldest lands on Earth as well. If you look at a map of the United States at night, there are parts of the West, short of the coast, which are almost as dark as North Korea.

Energy and liquid water seem to be the biggest challenges on land. With energy you can either cool or heat the worst environment, and either collect, store, melt or import water, although the more local you can source water, the better, I think. The other kind of tech which would be useful would be for intense, efficient local farming, mostly automated. While I expect most food production to be dominated by a few huge companies, I think that having thousands of tiny, family owned farms/gardens, which operate autonomously enough to not be the main occupation of the family who owns them, would be fantastic. We already have this to some extent, but there?s huge room for improvement.

A century of practice reclaiming deserts and tundras, creating dispersed energy grids and autonomous urban farms, would be great practice for the skills needed to actually colonize other planets or to live in space. Not to mention a bit of elbow room would help quite a bit to ease our current problems. 


Tara Maya


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 22:29:46 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 17:29:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
References: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY5gDK0x26xRO48svH3ZWKoTtQ2Fw_eToWC3jr_kJFrgA@mail.gmail.com>

my comment at the end  bill w

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

>
> As part of my research for my novels, I watch a lot of YouTube videos
> about ?bushcraft? and survival skills, and other fun topics like how to
> build a house for $6000.  While I am very pro-technology, I am leery of any
> form of ?Cyber Socialism,? a future in which only a few geniuses will have
> any genuine work to do and everyone else will live off of ?Universal
> Income? (as serfs lived off the ?charity? of their feudal masters in the
> Dark Ages), distracted by the bread and circuses of Virtual playgrounds. I
> don?t want to live on the charity of a global cyber-ruling class, and I
> doubt that the majority of humanity does either.
>
> I?d rather see technology used to empower individuals, and not just the
> super geniuses, but the ordinary people, even?dare I say it?the kind of
> people who may have voted for Trump. Or Jill Stein. Or whoever you hate,
> but who wouldn?t matter as much if the government combined with huge
> conglomerates didn?t have such power of our lives. People who want to be
> independent and useful, on their own terms.
>
> It seems to me that the only real way to do that is to use technology to
> extend land that families can move onto, develop themselves, in the old
> frontier fashion. Not at a lower technological level, the way most ?off the
> grid? types now, but in a way that decentralizes but extends the grid?in a
> high tech way. Cheap, easy to use tech that turns dead land, like tundra,
> desert and empty ocean into territory where people can build houses and
> towns and new states.
>
> Terraforming other planets is still too expensive, but terraforming the
> more alien parts of the earth seems within reach. There?s a few
> organizations out there, like the Sea Steading community, which are
> thinking along the same lines, but I would like to think in terms of
> reclaiming the hottest and coldest lands on Earth as well. If you look at a
> map of the United States at night, there are parts of the West, short of
> the coast, which are almost as dark as North Korea.
>
> Energy and liquid water seem to be the biggest challenges on land. With
> energy you can either cool or heat the worst environment, and either
> collect, store, melt or import water, although the more local you can
> source water, the better, I think. The other kind of tech which would be
> useful would be for intense, efficient local farming, mostly automated.
> While I expect most food production to be dominated by a few huge
> companies, I think that having thousands of tiny, family owned
> farms/gardens, which operate autonomously enough to not be the main
> occupation of the family who owns them, would be fantastic. We already have
> this to some extent, but there?s huge room for improvement.
>
> A century of practice reclaiming deserts and tundras, creating dispersed
> energy grids and autonomous urban farms, would be great practice for the
> skills needed to actually colonize other planets or to live in space. Not
> to mention a bit of elbow room would help quite a bit to ease our current
> problems.
>
> Tara Maya
>
?---------------------------------
This sounds wonderful, and I cannot agree more that humans need to work for
various reasons, including self-esteem.  But in the society your describe,
no one really needs to work.  So give a family a piece of land and
equipment so they can farm.  Farming is hard work and often frustrating -
weather, pests, etc.  So I suspect that people will get tired of it rapidly.

Another thing:  how is this different from just giving them toys to play
with, which they can put down when they get tired of playing with them?
Sure, they may produce some specialty foods, and that serves everyone
better than sitting on a couch running up your video games scores.?


?But in the end it's make-work which might even disrupt economic planning.
You will have to kick people out who are not doing the jobs.  So the
property really does not belong to them, or should not. And people
apparently like to live in big cities where everything is right at hand.

I like the idea a lot but see some real problems with it.?
?bill w?

_______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Sep  6 23:48:56 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 16:48:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
References: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRHxBYGP1Omw-uQ-qJCJ6L26T6a=WUAXRF8rGvQaHseoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:
> It seems to me that the only real way to do that is to use technology to extend land that families can move onto, develop themselves, in the old frontier fashion. Not at a lower technological level, the way most ?off the grid? types now, but in a way that decentralizes but extends the grid?in a high tech way. Cheap, easy to use tech that turns dead land, like tundra, desert and empty ocean into territory where people can build houses and towns and new states.

The main challenge there is not environmental but urban, specifically
transportation.  People have been gathering in cities since ancient
times, but especially since the Industrial Revolution, because being
so close to distribution centers and other people makes life better in
so many ways.  Better paying and more diverse jobs, access to services
that are only practical to implement for city-sized crowds (and thus
that rural folk must do without), not needing to spend so much time
going from place to place ("wonders of the scenic journey" aside, as a
day-to-day matter most people prefer whatever practical option is
closest to teleportation that technology and circumstance make
available), et cetera and so forth.

Nothing is preventing people from building cities on a particular
patch of tundra or desert (Phoenix, for example) if there is good
enough reason to build there.  But there isn't, for the most part.
There is reason to build out along the edges of existing urban areas,
but there is a limit to how practical that is (until and unless a new
industrial center springs up, reducing commute times in its area and
spawning its own suburbs).

> Energy and liquid water seem to be the biggest challenges on land.

If you want this in a microcosm, look at plans to urbanize the Pacific
side of the San Francisco Bay Peninsula region (San Mateo & Santa Cruz
counties).  There is a lot of undeveloped land, within easy commute
distance of a region (the SF Bay side) with lots of jobs and lots of
people wanting to live in the area.  Developing a hilly area with that
nearby should be easy relative to planting a city in desert hundreds
of miles from the nearest significant civilization, right?  But if you
investigate, you will soon discover that mere transportation - simply
getting people and supplies in and out of the region, day by day - is
a larger issue than energy and water, even just looking at
technological (rather than political, legal, and financial) factors.

(I once wrote a science fiction setting where a colonized planet had
two main settlements, one industrially-focused and one
biologically-focused, on the planet's two main continents.  They built
a long bridge between them...and some people settled in along this
bridge, starting at either end, as well as a midway waypoint since the
bridge took 2 days to cross with the colony's starting technology.
Since this was a primary economic focus of the planet, the bridge
cities grew naturally, both outward and along the bridge until they
met, resulting in a megacity focused around the bridge - with
redundant spans sideways and vertically added over time, of course.
You might try envisioning turning California Highway 92 or 84 into a
smaller version of that, where they pass over SF Bay and/or over the
hills to the west.)

> While I expect most food production to be dominated by a few huge companies, I think that having thousands of tiny, family owned farms/gardens, which operate autonomously enough to not be the main occupation of the family who owns them, would be fantastic.

If they just operate and manufacture food without that much daily
involvement by the family, what is to stop a corporation from buying
them up as the investments they are?  And then you get back to huge
factory farms, as demonstrated today.  It's almost as if antitrust
needs to be applied to farms (except, there aren't quite that few
farming corporations).



From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Sep  7 05:36:21 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2017 22:36:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Is this who we are?
Message-ID: <24e7ed9e9a0bd10022cf1e558945edf0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillW wrote:

> We are creatures easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of
> others, lacking critical self-understanding, easily gripped by fantastical
> hopes and ambitions.  Our capacity for self-government is spasmodic, and
> even while we preen ourselves on our critical and independent, free and
> rational decisions, we are the slaves of fashion and opinion and social and
> cultural forces of which we are ignorant. It would often be good, and no
> signal of disrespect to ourselves, if those who know better could rescue us
> from our worst follies.

> from Ethics by Simon Blackburn

> - opinions please?

He sounds like a shill for the ruling class. . . but he also sounds like
he is speaking from experience.

Many people genuinely do want to be led by those who they believe know
better than them. Some fewer people genuinely believe that they know
better than others and want to lead them. That is the primate norm after
all. Monkey see, monkey do.

I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as
they will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less
instinctually satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make it
so you don't see too many libertarian chimps.


Stuart LaForge





From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Sep  7 07:53:34 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 00:53:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
Message-ID: <39722db0a076ef8794f223c3fbefcf03.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

>As part of my research for my novels, I watch a lot of YouTube videos
about >?bushcraft? and survival skills, and other fun topics like how to
build a >house for $6000.  While I am very pro-technology, I am leery of
any form of >?Cyber Socialism,? a future in which only a few geniuses
will have any >genuine work to do and everyone else will live off of
?Universal Income? >(as serfs lived off the ?charity? of their feudal
masters in the Dark >Ages), distracted by the bread and circuses of
Virtual playgrounds. I don?t >want to live on the charity of a global
cyber-ruling class, and I doubt >that the majority of humanity does
either.

Do you consider running Linux on your computer as accepting charity? What
if you were paid for your performance in the virtual circus instead of
meat space? Would you consider battling virtual orcs for real money?

How about a cyber-Spartan society? Where the machines are like the Healots
of society and supply all the necessities of life while the citizens are
warriors who do nothing but fight wars for control of land and the
machines of production?


>I?d rather see technology used to empower individuals, and not just the
>super geniuses, but the ordinary people, even?dare I say it?the kind of
>people who may have voted for Trump. Or Jill Stein. Or whoever you hate,
>but who wouldn?t matter as much if the government combined with huge
>conglomerates didn?t have such power of our lives. People who want to be
>independent and useful, on their own terms.

I agree with you but the elite will deny that anything is actually
preventing ordinary people from empowering themselves using the tech. How
would you answer them?

>A century of practice reclaiming deserts and tundras, creating dispersed
>energy grids and autonomous urban farms, would be great practice for the
>skills needed to actually colonize other planets or to live in space.
Not >to mention a bit of elbow room would help quite a bit to ease our
current >problems.

This is a great idea, Tara. I like your vision. ;-)

Stuart LaForge





From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 12:23:34 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 08:23:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More on topological quantum computing
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv13VomG2s3EyLotsa5z5_qVW+HtELp=jOePU2wUHAqyXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv07Lh5W+XpYfM_LJ3CAG6G1dGLH_e3cBmQjL3kh9i6ihw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-Ze5YnB1JRXHWYVPv7U08X=CpJPURqVH+2xXLs2guHGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv13VomG2s3EyLotsa5z5_qVW+HtELp=jOePU2wUHAqyXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0of0Td-0VptNWc_TZnNHR+PDduHGfBguRD07vWRgHX0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017  Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:

?>
>> ?>?
>> ?John-
>> ? ?
>> ?D?
>> o you know if these folks are associated with Microsoft's efforts in this
>> space?
>>
>
> ?> ?
> As far as I know they are not,
>

It turns out I was wrong they ARE connected with Microsoft, they are all
part of
? ?
Microsoft's
? ?
Q Station project.
? ?
Yesterday they published a new paper in
? ?
Nature Communications
? ?
with more proof that they have indeed found
? ?
Majorana fermions, the spin of their quasiparticle
? ?
is the opposite of
? ?
its momentum in a
? ?
magnetic field, and that is pretty much the smoking gun for a Majorana
fermion.

?By the way I may be offline for a while, Hurricane ?Irma and its 180 mph
winds seems to be heading more or less strait for me.

John K Clark
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From interzone at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 12:29:27 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 08:29:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] More on topological quantum computing
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0of0Td-0VptNWc_TZnNHR+PDduHGfBguRD07vWRgHX0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv07Lh5W+XpYfM_LJ3CAG6G1dGLH_e3cBmQjL3kh9i6ihw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrqPH-Ze5YnB1JRXHWYVPv7U08X=CpJPURqVH+2xXLs2guHGg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv13VomG2s3EyLotsa5z5_qVW+HtELp=jOePU2wUHAqyXQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Thanks for the update.  Best wishes on staying safe!

On Sep 7, 2017 8:25 AM, "John Clark" <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017  Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?>
>>> ?>?
>>> ?John-
>>> ? ?
>>> ?D?
>>> o you know if these folks are associated with Microsoft's efforts in
>>> this space?
>>>
>>
>> ?> ?
>> As far as I know they are not,
>>
>
> It turns out I was wrong they ARE connected with Microsoft, they are all
> part of
> ? ?
> Microsoft's
> ? ?
> Q Station project.
> ? ?
> Yesterday they published a new paper in
> ? ?
> Nature Communications
> ? ?
> with more proof that they have indeed found
> ? ?
> Majorana fermions, the spin of their quasiparticle
> ? ?
> is the opposite of
> ? ?
> its momentum in a
> ? ?
> magnetic field, and that is pretty much the smoking gun for a Majorana
> fermion.
>
> ?By the way I may be offline for a while, Hurricane ?Irma and its 180 mph
> winds seems to be heading more or less strait for me.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 16:44:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:44:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Is this who we are?
In-Reply-To: <24e7ed9e9a0bd10022cf1e558945edf0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <24e7ed9e9a0bd10022cf1e558945edf0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb4uRMRzodka_WeSY=NPu1rAON8h8uYXUz8F4JwjsidHg@mail.gmail.com>

I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as they
will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less instinctually
satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make itso you don't see
too many libertarian chimps.
Stuart LaForg-------------

BTW;, monkeys are really bad at imitation learning.

Our answers to the above implied questions determines to an extent what we
think about the role of gov. in people's lives.  How many people actually
need a nanny state to tell them what to do, how to handle their money (or
handle it for them, such as forcing retirement plants on workers), save
them when they fail, and so on?

We libertarians disdain such things, esp. we smart ones.  But we are a
small percentage of the population.

bill w

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> BillW wrote:
>
> > We are creatures easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of
> > others, lacking critical self-understanding, easily gripped by
> fantastical
> > hopes and ambitions.  Our capacity for self-government is spasmodic, and
> > even while we preen ourselves on our critical and independent, free and
> > rational decisions, we are the slaves of fashion and opinion and social
> and
> > cultural forces of which we are ignorant. It would often be good, and no
> > signal of disrespect to ourselves, if those who know better could rescue
> us
> > from our worst follies.
>
> > from Ethics by Simon Blackburn
>
> > - opinions please?
>
> He sounds like a shill for the ruling class. . . but he also sounds like
> he is speaking from experience.
>
> Many people genuinely do want to be led by those who they believe know
> better than them. Some fewer people genuinely believe that they know
> better than others and want to lead them. That is the primate norm after
> all. Monkey see, monkey do.
>
> I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as
> they will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less
> instinctually satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make it
> so you don't see too many libertarian chimps.
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From tara at taramayastales.com  Thu Sep  7 17:29:55 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 10:29:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Is this who we are?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4uRMRzodka_WeSY=NPu1rAON8h8uYXUz8F4JwjsidHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <24e7ed9e9a0bd10022cf1e558945edf0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEb4uRMRzodka_WeSY=NPu1rAON8h8uYXUz8F4JwjsidHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66236552-63EC-4919-A134-230F9D901AA1@taramayastales.com>

Just to take the devil?s advocate position, isn?t ?easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of others? just a denigrating way of saying that we outsource most of our civilization to specialists in fields we don?t have time to master ourselves? Anybody who masters a field himself will not at all be easily swayed to the opinion of others IN THAT FIELD, which he considers rightly his area of expertise, but will bow to majority or expert opinion in other fields.

How could the human race have achieved any level of complexity if every individual tried to master every single field of knowledge?

Tara



> On Sep 7, 2017, at 9:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as they will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less instinctually satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make itso you don't see too many libertarian chimps.
> Stuart LaForg-------------
> 
> BTW;, monkeys are really bad at imitation learning.
> 
> Our answers to the above implied questions determines to an extent what we think about the role of gov. in people's lives.  How many people actually need a nanny state to tell them what to do, how to handle their money (or handle it for them, such as forcing retirement plants on workers), save them when they fail, and so on?
> 
> We libertarians disdain such things, esp. we smart ones.  But we are a small percentage of the population.
> 
> bill w
> 
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com <mailto:avant at sollegro.com>> wrote:
> BillW wrote:
> 
> > We are creatures easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of
> > others, lacking critical self-understanding, easily gripped by fantastical
> > hopes and ambitions.  Our capacity for self-government is spasmodic, and
> > even while we preen ourselves on our critical and independent, free and
> > rational decisions, we are the slaves of fashion and opinion and social and
> > cultural forces of which we are ignorant. It would often be good, and no
> > signal of disrespect to ourselves, if those who know better could rescue us
> > from our worst follies.
> 
> > from Ethics by Simon Blackburn
> 
> > - opinions please?
> 
> He sounds like a shill for the ruling class. . . but he also sounds like
> he is speaking from experience.
> 
> Many people genuinely do want to be led by those who they believe know
> better than them. Some fewer people genuinely believe that they know
> better than others and want to lead them. That is the primate norm after
> all. Monkey see, monkey do.
> 
> I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as
> they will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less
> instinctually satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make it
> so you don't see too many libertarian chimps.
> 
> 
> Stuart LaForge
> 

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From tara at taramayastales.com  Thu Sep  7 18:09:26 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 11:09:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <39722db0a076ef8794f223c3fbefcf03.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <39722db0a076ef8794f223c3fbefcf03.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <E533B29A-E3FC-4B22-9CD6-4E5D6B68B3A5@taramayastales.com>


> On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:53 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> 
>> As part of my research for my novels, I watch a lot of YouTube videos
> about >?bushcraft? and survival skills, and other fun topics like how to
> build a >house for $6000.  While I am very pro-technology, I am leery of
> any form of >?Cyber Socialism,? a future in which only a few geniuses
> will have any >genuine work to do and everyone else will live off of
> ?Universal Income? >(as serfs lived off the ?charity? of their feudal
> masters in the Dark >Ages), distracted by the bread and circuses of
> Virtual playgrounds. I don?t >want to live on the charity of a global
> cyber-ruling class, and I doubt >that the majority of humanity does
> either.
> 
> Do you consider running Linux on your computer as accepting charity? What
> if you were paid for your performance in the virtual circus instead of
> meat space? Would you consider battling virtual orcs for real money?


I don?t object to accepting charity or the freely offered work of others; only charity that comes with hidden strings of control from a centralized, non-democratic authority. 

I also don?t object to virtual realities, or even living inside a world of changing ?skins? (as long as the disconnect from the real world is not dangerous to ultimate survival). 

I saw an advertisement for a game recently that said it used real money as the currency inside the game. Playing the game was a way to directly earn money. I think this will indeed be a huge economic sector in the future. Already, I know of people who play game characters/worlds up to a certain level in popular games so they can sell the character/world for bitcoin. So it?s already happening, definitely. I don?t have a problem with that at all.


> 
> How about a cyber-Spartan society? Where the machines are like the Healots
> of society and supply all the necessities of life while the citizens are
> warriors who do nothing but fight wars for control of land and the
> machines of production?
> 
> 

If the machines are conscious and feeling oppressed, that would be okay. It would be nice if we could just wage all wars in cyberspace as well, so people wouldn?t have to get killed, but I don?t see anyway to do that without inviting cheaters into the system. What I mean is that let?s say every nation in the world agreed that instead of waging real war, they?d have a virtual war instead and accept the outcome. Or they would just attack each other?s machines and send each other back into the Twentieth Century level of tech by knocking out networks. Either way, what?s to stop Islamicist type fanatics from simply bypassing all that by killing citizens with machetes?  Your scenario, where the humans end up spending all their time fighting other humans while the machines do the rest actually sounds distressingly possible.




>> I?d rather see technology used to empower individuals, and not just the
>> super geniuses, but the ordinary people, even?dare I say it?the kind of
>> people who may have voted for Trump. Or Jill Stein. Or whoever you hate,
>> but who wouldn?t matter as much if the government combined with huge
>> conglomerates didn?t have such power of our lives. People who want to be
>> independent and useful, on their own terms.
> 
> I agree with you but the elite will deny that anything is actually
> preventing ordinary people from empowering themselves using the tech. How
> would you answer them?

If large corporations use money to influence governments to over-regulate industries and censor free speech ? which is what they are currently doing both in the EU and in the US and even more in China ? then this keeps out competition. The competition is the ordinary people, who cannot make the leap past the regulations and restrictions to create competitive products with the big corporations. Furthermore, if most ?ordinary people? actually only survive day to day because of Universal Income, which I imagine would keep them feed, maybe even fat, but not be enough to enable them to start a company in a highly regulated environment, then it?s an even bigger psychological leap for them to give up that money and risk starting their own business.

If people are raised by working parents who teach them how to work hard and take risks, they will know that they can work hard and take risks. If they are raised by parents ? or, worse,  a single parent ? who has never worked either, then who is to raise them with the values of courage and self-reliance needed to create something new and daring?

Meanwhile, the children of the elites, despite having hardworking parents themselves, also may become lazy and spoiled, because with no competition, they don?t need to work hard either. 

This is the way an entire culture becomes apathetic and stagnant once the divide between rich and poor becomes too large. I believe that most people who propose a Universal Income see this danger, actually, and don?t want a huge divide between a few wealthy oligarchs and a mass of ordinary people, but think that a Universal Income can stop this. That?s why I just wanted to say that I think the exact opposite is true, because a Universal Income can never bridge the gap in a way that true market freedom can. 

I should admit, however, that in a true free market, you?d still have a huge divide between super-rich and super poor, so on the surface, it wouldn?t be obviously better. It?s only better if you look at the society over several generations, because that?s when you?d see that in a free society, the composition of ?rich? and ?poor? is constantly changing, whereas in a stagnant society, you?d have the same 200 families ruling for a thousand years.



> 
>> A century of practice reclaiming deserts and tundras, creating dispersed
>> energy grids and autonomous urban farms, would be great practice for the
>> skills needed to actually colonize other planets or to live in space.
> Not >to mention a bit of elbow room would help quite a bit to ease our
> current >problems.
> 
> This is a great idea, Tara. I like your vision. ;-)
> \

I forgot to add ? is there a way we can make the tropics a healthy place for dense human habitation, in a way that actually preserves or even increases biodivisity in the ecology? Rather than cut down rainforests, can we find a way to build around and with rainforests? Could we even create hothouse skyscrappers that create islands of rainforest in other parts of the world, even the tundra? Imagine if you walked into a skyscrapper in the middle of a big city, and instead of floors and offices, you saw tropical trees, monkeys, parrots? Or redwoods, ferns and owls?

Ecologically, we humans are making a new Pangea by connecting all the ecosystems of the world by our own travel. Creatures that would normally never compete, end up as invasive species in each other?s regions, diving native species extinct, and decreasing biodiversity world wide. But I think we have it in our power to reverse that trend by creating what are effectively ?island? ecologies inside parks--or even buildings. If would be a new thing in the history of the earth to enable a dome filled with penguins and ice to survive in Brazil and a skyscraper filled with tropical trees and spider monkeys in Toronto. It would be nice if our niche, as a species, could be one of enabling greater biodiversity, rather than our current role, of instigating the sixth great extinction.


Tara 











From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 18:26:18 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 13:26:18 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Is this who we are?
In-Reply-To: <66236552-63EC-4919-A134-230F9D901AA1@taramayastales.com>
References: <24e7ed9e9a0bd10022cf1e558945edf0.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEb4uRMRzodka_WeSY=NPu1rAON8h8uYXUz8F4JwjsidHg@mail.gmail.com>
 <66236552-63EC-4919-A134-230F9D901AA1@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZPFQuT6WW2G4C1vAD2pPz_tTwXKxhg5+oW6H_QJyFxUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just to take the devil?s advocate position, isn?t ?easily swayed,
constantly infected by the opinions of others? just a denigrating way of
saying that we outsource most of our civilization to specialists in fields
we don?t have time to master ourselves?
Tara
---------
Not to me it doesn't.  It means credulousness, regardless of ability or
expertise. I am not easily swayed by anyone, because I understand that
there are different opinions on just about anything, so I don't readily
accept an expert's opinion, where as the writer is talking about someone
will accept just about anyone, expert or not, who appears to know more than
they do. Including fake news -"It's on TV .  They can't lie to me, can
they?  It's illegal."

bill w

Of course we all outsource nearly everything - when was the last time we
could work on our own cars, TVs, any electronic gear?  Lawyers, physicians,
head a long list of experts we all need now and then.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:

> Just to take the devil?s advocate position, isn?t ?easily swayed,
> constantly infected by the opinions of others? just a denigrating way of
> saying that we outsource most of our civilization to specialists in fields
> we don?t have time to master ourselves? Anybody who masters a field himself
> will not at all be easily swayed to the opinion of others IN THAT FIELD,
> which he considers rightly his area of expertise, but will bow to majority
> or expert opinion in other fields.
>
> How could the human race have achieved any level of complexity if every
> individual tried to master every single field of knowledge?
>
> Tara
>
>
>
> On Sep 7, 2017, at 9:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as they
> will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less instinctually
> satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make itso you don't
> see too many libertarian chimps.
> Stuart LaForg-------------
>
> BTW;, monkeys are really bad at imitation learning.
>
> Our answers to the above implied questions determines to an extent what we
> think about the role of gov. in people's lives.  How many people actually
> need a nanny state to tell them what to do, how to handle their money (or
> handle it for them, such as forcing retirement plants on workers), save
> them when they fail, and so on?
>
> We libertarians disdain such things, esp. we smart ones.  But we are a
> small percentage of the population.
>
> bill w
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 12:36 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
>
>> BillW wrote:
>>
>> > We are creatures easily swayed, constantly infected by the opinions of
>> > others, lacking critical self-understanding, easily gripped by
>> fantastical
>> > hopes and ambitions.  Our capacity for self-government is spasmodic, and
>> > even while we preen ourselves on our critical and independent, free and
>> > rational decisions, we are the slaves of fashion and opinion and social
>> and
>> > cultural forces of which we are ignorant. It would often be good, and no
>> > signal of disrespect to ourselves, if those who know better could
>> rescue us
>> > from our worst follies.
>>
>> > from Ethics by Simon Blackburn
>>
>> > - opinions please?
>>
>> He sounds like a shill for the ruling class. . . but he also sounds like
>> he is speaking from experience.
>>
>> Many people genuinely do want to be led by those who they believe know
>> better than them. Some fewer people genuinely believe that they know
>> better than others and want to lead them. That is the primate norm after
>> all. Monkey see, monkey do.
>>
>> I think only a small minority of people simply want the freedom to act as
>> they will without being responsible for others. This behavior is less
>> instinctually satisfying but more intellectually so. But it does make it
>> so you don't see too many libertarian chimps.
>>
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 20:07:16 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 15:07:16 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ai - love the pictures!!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa07fx1CQ=HmcmnrcyibQqv-wmmh9PmD5Nny_Jq_HLrUQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://qz.com/1067123/stop-pretending-you-really-know-what-ai-is-and-read-this-instead/?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Sep  7 20:21:38 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 13:21:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
Message-ID: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Tara Maya wrote:

>If large corporations use money to influence governments to over-regulate
>industries and censor free speech ? which is what they are currently
doing >both in the EU and in the US and even more in China ? then this
keeps out >competition. The competition is the ordinary people, who
cannot make the >leap past the regulations and restrictions to create
competitive products >with the big corporations. Furthermore, if most
?ordinary people? actually >only survive day to day because of Universal
Income, which I imagine would >keep them feed, maybe even fat, but not be
enough to enable them to start a >company in a highly regulated
environment, then it?s an even bigger >psychological leap for them to
give up that money and risk starting their >own business.

Universal Income and regulatory barriers to market entry are separate
issues. One does not entail the other although the two together are a
nasty combination. Why should they have to give up their Universal Income
in order to start their own businesses if there is no law requiring it?

>If people are raised by working parents who teach them how to work hard
and >take risks, they will know that they can work hard and take risks.
If they >are raised by parents ? or, worse,  a single parent ? who has
never worked >either, then who is to raise them with the values of
courage and >self-reliance needed to create something new and daring?

Boredom can spawn courage almost as well as desperation. And novelty is
its own reward. People will adapt or become irrelevant.

>This is the way an entire culture becomes apathetic and stagnant once the
>divide between rich and poor becomes too large. I believe that most
people >who propose a Universal Income see this danger, actually, and
don?t want a >huge divide between a few wealthy oligarchs and a mass of
ordinary people, >but think that a Universal Income can stop this. That?s
why I just wanted >to say that I think the exact opposite is true,
because a Universal Income >can never bridge the gap in a way that true
market freedom can.

You can have both a free market and UI and there never need be a shortage
of novel goods and services for you to spend your UI on. UI could instead
be the rain that encourages seeds to grow. Think of it as dividends paid
for ownership of "stock" in the entire economy with one share per person.

>
>I should admit, however, that in a true free market, you?d still have a
>huge divide between super-rich and super poor, so on the surface, it
>wouldn?t be obviously better. It?s only better if you look at the
society >over several generations, because that?s when you?d see that in
a free >society, the composition of ?rich? and ?poor? is constantly
changing, >whereas in a stagnant society, you?d have the same 200
families ruling for >a thousand years.

I think you underestimate the volatility of humanity. There have been 198
empires in recorded history to date. Only 3 of which have survived more
than a thousand years. Even if ruling families don't murder each other
quite to the same extent that they used to, I don't see the same state of
political affairs in place for a thousand years. Not unless society
stumbles onto something on par with Pharaonic Egypt. Which is highly
unlikely.

I mean there will predictably be oligarchs, but the oligarchs should
change. But then again with AI who knows?

>I forgot to add ? is there a way we can make the tropics a healthy place
>for dense human habitation, in a way that actually preserves or even
>increases biodivisity in the ecology? Rather than cut down rainforests,
can >we find a way to build around and with rainforests? Could we even
create >hothouse skyscrappers that create islands of rainforest in other
parts of >the world, even the tundra? Imagine if you walked into a
skyscrapper in the >middle of a big city, and instead of floors and
offices, you saw tropical >trees, monkeys, parrots? Or redwoods, ferns
and owls?

Sure we could. Aesthetics are marketable, therefore beautiful life-forms
should thrive in a free market.

>It would be nice if our niche, as a species, could be one of enabling
>greater biodiversity, rather than our current role, of instigating the
>sixth great extinction.

Great extinctions are part of the natural order. If it is our destiny to
bring about the sixth, then so be it. From destruction springs creation,
new niches needing filling, surviving creatures adapting, radiating,
generating new and greater biodiversity.

Blessed are the losers; for they are the martyrs of evolution.

Stuart LaForge







From tara at taramayastales.com  Thu Sep  7 21:35:21 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 14:35:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Universal Income
In-Reply-To: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <B44195B1-95D2-4AD7-AA5B-89172CBE1A65@taramayastales.com>


> On Sep 7, 2017, at 1:21 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> 
>  Why should they have to give up their Universal Income
> in order to start their own businesses if there is no law requiring it?

Maybe I don?t understand how Universal Income supposed to work.

Here?s a toy scenario, simplified and exaggerated, but my best stab at understanding how it would work:

Let?s assume the best and say that anyone with any income would be taxed the same percent, and everyone would receive the same amount. And imagine four players: Poor Jack, Rich Dick, Middle Class Marty and Politician Pete. 

Poor Jack has no job and no income; Rich Dick owns many assets and has an disposable income of 5 million units a year. Politician Pete wins votes from Poor Jack and Middle Marty by promising to tax Rich Dick, say, 20%, to fund the pool for UI. Of course, Middle Marty, who makes 20,000 units a year, also has to pay 20% of that, but he?s glad to do so, even though it means his income drops to 16,000 units, because he also gets UI (?) and so has an income of 26,000.

That works well at first, and Poor Jack starts to receive just enough to keep him alive, say, 10,000 units a year. But of course, the divide between Poor Jack and Rich Dick would still be huge, so at the next election, Politician Pete would promise to increase the tax, say, to 50% in order to give Poor Jack $20,000. And of course, there?s also money in there for Politician Pete, and his legions of paper pushers, to run the thing.

Of course, as soon as Poor Jack has more money, Rich Dick, his landlord and the owner of the large mega-internet-store and also several media companies, would simply raise the price on his rent, food, and media, and so Poor Jack would find that he could barely survive on $20,000. Meanwhile, Dick, no dope, would also fund Politician Pete, or a rival party member, Politician Paul, and work out some new tax codes that would redefine Dick?s own income as effectively zero, so that his taxes would go down to nothing. The tax burden would now fall completely upon Middle Class Marty, who now has to pay more for housing, food, and entertainment because of the money being thrown at Poor Jack, who meanwhile contributes nothing of his own to the economy. Marty?s income, after tax, is 10,000 but he also receives 20,000, so he?s doing better on the face of it, with an income of 30,000 units, but everything is more expensive now?. And the income he earns (after tax) is now much less than he gets from UI, so at some point, he may wonder, why bother working at all?

Some Middle Marties decide to take it easy, because why bother, and some suffer temporary set backs that drop them into Poor Jacks, and some go work for Politician Pete or Paul pushing paper, and there are less and less Middle Marties paying for the pool that funds UI. Neither Poor Jack, nor Politician Pete, nor, at this point, even Rich Dick pays into the pool, so it?s all the backs of the middle class, which will therefore shrink. At least it could be said of Rich Dick that he is contributing to making and selling things, but the number of people who drop of out of productive labor to leech off the system would inevitably grow, until you basically have no middle class left, only the rich leeches and the poor leeches and the government leeches.

At that point, there?s a bloody revolution instead of an election, and thousands die.

Not a great system, as far as I can see. What I am missing here?





From tara at taramayastales.com  Thu Sep  7 21:44:00 2017
From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 14:44:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cities
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRHxBYGP1Omw-uQ-qJCJ6L26T6a=WUAXRF8rGvQaHseoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
 <CALAdGNRHxBYGP1Omw-uQ-qJCJ6L26T6a=WUAXRF8rGvQaHseoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3FCD1C85-0A0D-4AED-906A-8DA9DAE5285F@taramayastales.com>


> On Sep 6, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The main challenge there is not environmental but urban, specifically
> transportation.  People have been gathering in cities since ancient
> times, but especially since the Industrial Revolution, because being
> so close to distribution centers and other people makes life better in
> so many ways.  Better paying and more diverse jobs, access to services
> that are only practical to implement for city-sized crowds (and thus
> that rural folk must do without), not needing to spend so much time
> going from place to place ("wonders of the scenic journey" aside, as a
> day-to-day matter most people prefer whatever practical option is
> closest to teleportation that technology and circumstance make
> available), et cetera and so forth.


All good points, Adrian. 

What do you think about building canals? You could have water-powered energy, transport and obviously the water itself all at once, so new cities would grow up alongside the canals. Of course, right now, the expense isn?t worth it, but could some technological innovations change that?


About cities?.

Historically, at least in the Early Modern and Modern Anglosphere societies that I studied in grad school, cities are a demographic heat sink. 

There are two patterns that I studied about city demography since 1500. (I?ve only studied this in English and American context, so I don?t know if it applies equally to cities in the rest of the world, but I wouldn?t be surprised if it did.) One, everyone is aware of, I?m sure, which is that cities have grown larger, more numerous and house a greater proportion of the population over time.

But this strong unidirectional upward urbanization trend hides another trend, one which has important implications for shorter term evaluations of human prosperity.

Those periods of Anglo-American history when cities have grown disproportionately to the countryside have been the difficult times, the bad times for the ordinary people (though often good times for the nobility, when labor was cheap). When the countryside or suburbs have grown, those are the good times for ordinary people, when the divergence between rich and poor goes down but average standard of living goes up. When housing in the country or suburbs is cheap, young people marry early, and have larger families. When housing is expensive, young people remain single longer, and live a larger portion of their lives in the city. Wages are suppressed by the excess urban population.

Cities are population sinks. But it?s not obvious to those living in the city, because the population is composed of a high degree of immigrants?from the countryside, or nowadays, from other countries as well. Most of Migrants in the European Migrant Crisis might be thought about not so much as international migrants, but as migrants from the countryside to urban centers. It?s just that this is now happening on an international scale as never before.

Obviously, a huge reason for this is the ongoing industrial and post-industrial revolutions, which make food production more efficient and thus slough off excess labor from the countryside to the city. But in the short term, this increase in urbanization (now over 50% world-wide) is not necessarily a good sign. Because cities are not really good places for family formation, or at least, not in the Anglo-American tradition. Those young people are supposed to match up and move out to a house with a yard. Where are they going to go? Where are they going to raise their children? Right now, in cities around the world, the answer is?in dense apartments, in shantytowns, in slums, in ghettos. 

This is not a long-term solution.

If those people aren?t going to move back to the country or to the suburbs for family formation, and if urbanization is the future for everyone, we have to drastically change how cities work. Otherwise, expect the cities to do their real job?cut the population down ruthlessly. 

In so many science fiction futures, I see whole planets that are just one big city. Which I guess would work if you have dozens of other planets which are nothing but farm and forest. We don?t actually know how to build a self-sufficient city yet, a city that not only feeds itself, but breeds itself. Contrast us with termites and ants, that forage outside their next, but always return to it at night. Ants never invented suburbia.

On the other hand, even though many philosophers have urged getting rid of cities completely, and the Khmer Rouge actually tried to empty them, that doesn?t work either. We seem to need cities. Or at least for the last ten thousand years we have.

What do you think? Are we evolving into being a completely urbanized species, or will we always need a balance of city and not-city?






From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 23:22:46 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 18:22:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] silicon valley's politics - surprising!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEavsuDo_iqd0fSjSvwz47NbxekZhj3cySy+6oegGXnsmw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/06/technology/silicon-valley-politics.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits&_r=0

Notice the sample content.

bill w
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep  7 23:35:54 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 18:35:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>

stuart wrote; I mean there will predictably be oligarchs, but the oligarchs
should
change.-
?--------

How often do we see truly exceptional individuals create something
wonderful, get extremely rich, and have children who don't seem to get
whatever that parent had?  Gene variability will insure that dynasties
won't last (and never have, much, unless they had tight control over the
military).  Of course, history is not one of my areas, to say the least.?
 Which brings up the issue of estate taxes:  Rockefeller's money is still
around.  Why should his heirs get all that money for having done nothing?
Let the money go to people who will do something new with it.

bill w

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> Tara Maya wrote:
>
> >If large corporations use money to influence governments to over-regulate
> >industries and censor free speech ? which is what they are currently
> doing >both in the EU and in the US and even more in China ? then this
> keeps out >competition. The competition is the ordinary people, who
> cannot make the >leap past the regulations and restrictions to create
> competitive products >with the big corporations. Furthermore, if most
> ?ordinary people? actually >only survive day to day because of Universal
> Income, which I imagine would >keep them feed, maybe even fat, but not be
> enough to enable them to start a >company in a highly regulated
> environment, then it?s an even bigger >psychological leap for them to
> give up that money and risk starting their >own business.
>
> Universal Income and regulatory barriers to market entry are separate
> issues. One does not entail the other although the two together are a
> nasty combination. Why should they have to give up their Universal Income
> in order to start their own businesses if there is no law requiring it?
>
> >If people are raised by working parents who teach them how to work hard
> and >take risks, they will know that they can work hard and take risks.
> If they >are raised by parents ? or, worse,  a single parent ? who has
> never worked >either, then who is to raise them with the values of
> courage and >self-reliance needed to create something new and daring?
>
> Boredom can spawn courage almost as well as desperation. And novelty is
> its own reward. People will adapt or become irrelevant.
>
> >This is the way an entire culture becomes apathetic and stagnant once the
> >divide between rich and poor becomes too large. I believe that most
> people >who propose a Universal Income see this danger, actually, and
> don?t want a >huge divide between a few wealthy oligarchs and a mass of
> ordinary people, >but think that a Universal Income can stop this. That?s
> why I just wanted >to say that I think the exact opposite is true,
> because a Universal Income >can never bridge the gap in a way that true
> market freedom can.
>
> You can have both a free market and UI and there never need be a shortage
> of novel goods and services for you to spend your UI on. UI could instead
> be the rain that encourages seeds to grow. Think of it as dividends paid
> for ownership of "stock" in the entire economy with one share per person.
>
> >
> >I should admit, however, that in a true free market, you?d still have a
> >huge divide between super-rich and super poor, so on the surface, it
> >wouldn?t be obviously better. It?s only better if you look at the
> society >over several generations, because that?s when you?d see that in
> a free >society, the composition of ?rich? and ?poor? is constantly
> changing, >whereas in a stagnant society, you?d have the same 200
> families ruling for >a thousand years.
>
> I think you underestimate the volatility of humanity. There have been 198
> empires in recorded history to date. Only 3 of which have survived more
> than a thousand years. Even if ruling families don't murder each other
> quite to the same extent that they used to, I don't see the same state of
> political affairs in place for a thousand years. Not unless society
> stumbles onto something on par with Pharaonic Egypt. Which is highly
> unlikely.
>
> I mean there will predictably be oligarchs, but the oligarchs should
> change. But then again with AI who knows?
>
> >I forgot to add ? is there a way we can make the tropics a healthy place
> >for dense human habitation, in a way that actually preserves or even
> >increases biodivisity in the ecology? Rather than cut down rainforests,
> can >we find a way to build around and with rainforests? Could we even
> create >hothouse skyscrappers that create islands of rainforest in other
> parts of >the world, even the tundra? Imagine if you walked into a
> skyscrapper in the >middle of a big city, and instead of floors and
> offices, you saw tropical >trees, monkeys, parrots? Or redwoods, ferns
> and owls?
>
> Sure we could. Aesthetics are marketable, therefore beautiful life-forms
> should thrive in a free market.
>
> >It would be nice if our niche, as a species, could be one of enabling
> >greater biodiversity, rather than our current role, of instigating the
> >sixth great extinction.
>
> Great extinctions are part of the natural order. If it is our destiny to
> bring about the sixth, then so be it. From destruction springs creation,
> new niches needing filling, surviving creatures adapting, radiating,
> generating new and greater biodiversity.
>
> Blessed are the losers; for they are the martyrs of evolution.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Sep  7 23:44:40 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2017 16:44:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Universal Income
Message-ID: <9d3076479a541ca1e9daf84daa084424.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Tara Maya wrote:

>Maybe I don?t understand how Universal Income supposed to work.

Nah. I think you understand it just fine.


>Some Middle Marties decide to take it easy, because why bother, and some
>suffer temporary set backs that drop them into Poor Jacks, and some go
work >for Politician Pete or Paul pushing paper, and there are less and
less >Middle Marties paying for the pool that funds UI. Neither Poor
Jack, nor >Politician Pete, nor, at this point, even Rich Dick pays into
the pool, so >it?s all the backs of the middle class, which will
therefore shrink. At >least it could be said of Rich Dick that he is
contributing to making and >selling things, but the number of people who
drop of out of productive >labor to leech off the system would inevitably
grow, until you basically >have no middle class left, only the rich
leeches and the poor leeches and >the government leeches.


>At that point, there?s a bloody revolution instead of an election, and
>thousands die.
>
>Not a great system, as far as I can see. What I am missing here?

Not much except there is an option to forget the UI and have the bloody
revolution up front. Also you seem to miss the possibility that the robots
and AI doing almost all of the productive labor will have already killed
the middle-class by the time UI gets adopted. With the possible exception
of Romney's millionaire middle-class, the middle class will only exist in
developing countries.

But cheer up, bright-eyes. :-) I can't imagine congress approving UI
unless bloody revolution was eminent anyway. In which case it would
qualify as "kicking the can down the road" which is something congress is
actually good at. In the mean time, I bid you "semper paratus", "molon
labe", "coitus more ferarum", and so forth . . .

Stuart LaForge




From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Sep  8 13:22:06 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 09:22:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 7:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Which brings up the issue of estate taxes:  Rockefeller's money is still
> around.  Why should his heirs get all that money for having done nothing?
>

Um, because he willed/bequeathed it to them?


>   Let the money go to people who will do something new with it.
>

"Let" it? How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides
who gets some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate,
businesses, etc? Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  8 17:36:55 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 12:36:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>

How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides who gets
some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate, businesses, etc?
Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?

-Dave

yes   bill w

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 7:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Which brings up the issue of estate taxes:  Rockefeller's money is still
>> around.  Why should his heirs get all that money for having done nothing?
>>
>
> Um, because he willed/bequeathed it to them?
>
>
>>   Let the money go to people who will do something new with it.
>>
>
> "Let" it? How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides
> who gets some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate,
> businesses, etc? Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?
>
> -Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Sep  8 17:52:27 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 13:52:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fyv0Srhdj_4NNN4_hudMsL79Q0Cvs6z4rHp=vixwWCdQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> > How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides who gets
> some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate, businesses, etc?
> Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?
>
> yes
>

Yes to all six questions or just the last one? I'm trying to understand
what you're advocating but a one word answer doesn't help. At any rate,
what you're suggesting is not in any way libertarian, which I thought you
claimed to be.

-Dave
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Sep  8 17:42:54 2017
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 13:42:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a927fe439558d08d82f42b7da05be6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



On Fri, September 8, 2017 13:36, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>> How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who
>> decides who gets
>> some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate,
>> businesses, etc?
>> Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than
>> heirs?
>>
>> -Dave

>
> yes   bill w
>

And this is libertarian?  Who decides how much you (or I)
can have, or to whom you are (or I am) allowed to give it?
God? Satan?  Mr. Trump?  You?

Regards,
MB


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep  8 19:36:02 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 14:36:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <6a927fe439558d08d82f42b7da05be6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
References: <806aa88f762e333389b5bb5ce7432c3d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEboP-7Naz403k_DU+XapAzkFNG4G-dSmiot4ae6Kp_eOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cBF_7rsqD2BoBvzhQ=pKCbjMBW4oe0TJ0t44vwhA5oGQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEb2GFkdyHpXFfAkz-ehwUzHaKMmchjoWJCb6VKiW-9ozg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6a927fe439558d08d82f42b7da05be6e.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY6cOiFRSLXh5LK_=Df8H1wOpn3VZV9DRhO6XVX3GvaPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes to all six questions or just the last one? I'm trying to understand
what you're advocating but a one word answer doesn't help. At any rate,
what you're suggesting is not in any way libertarian, which I thought you
claimed to be.

-Dave

Well, OK, so that was a bit tongue in cheek, to see just what I would get.
Sorry if that insulted you.

There are times when my libertarian leanings conflict with my liberal
ones.  I don't believe that Uncle Scrooge's should be able to just sit on
billions and not put it into circulation in some form (which they very
likely do, like stocks and bonds).  And I am concerned about 50 million
people just sitting at home waiting for the job market to do something.

If you are a purist libertarian, then I am not your cup of tea.  We have to
have taxes and not just for police and military.  The country has people
who are not getting good food, good medical care etc. and we can afford
it!  But only we tax properly and no, I don't know just what that is.  I
know what end results I want but not the best way to get there.

I would not cut heirs out nor confiscate businesses.  Estate taxes?  Yes.

Me?  Why not me?  Yeah, put me in charge.
bill w

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 12:42 PM, MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, September 8, 2017 13:36, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> >> How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who
> >> decides who gets
> >> some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate,
> >> businesses, etc?
> >> Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than
> >> heirs?
> >>
> >> -Dave
>
> >
> > yes   bill w
> >
>
> And this is libertarian?  Who decides how much you (or I)
> can have, or to whom you are (or I am) allowed to give it?
> God? Satan?  Mr. Trump?  You?
>
> Regards,
> MB
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Sep  9 12:29:01 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 05:29:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inheritance
Message-ID: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

In response to BillW, Dave Sill wrote:

>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides who gets
>> some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate, businesses,
etc?
>> Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?
>
>> yes
>
>Yes to all six questions or just the last one? I'm trying to understand
>what you're advocating but a one word answer doesn't help. At any rate,
>what you're suggesting is not in any way libertarian, which I thought you
>claimed to be.

Actually, a libertarian argument could be made for inheritance tax or
other forms, preferably free market, of redistribution of the wealth of
the deceased.

First off, inheritance is a form of economic rent which is a technical
term for unearned wealth gained in the absense of production value, risk,
or opportunity cost. All forms of economic rent are market inefficiencies
and are considered to be factors in the unprecedented inequality we see
today.

Second, the USian founding fathers thought that inheritance was part of
the trappings of European aristocracy. They abolished the English laws of
primogeniture in the colonies because they felt it wrong for the dead to
enforce their will upon the living in perpetuity and they were worried it
would give rise to an American nobility.

Ur economist Adam Smith had this to say on the subject:

"A power to dispose of estates forever is manifestly absurd. The earth and
the fulness of it belongs to every generation, and the preceding one can
have no right to bind it up from posterity. Such extension of property is
quite unnatural. There is no point more difficult to account for than the
right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death."-
Adam Smith

https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_fathers

As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I feel that inheritance
brings into conflict my values of freedom and meritocracy. Whereas a part
of me wants the ability to distribute my estate as I see fit, another part
of me realizes that I will have no way of knowing whether I would approve
of how that wealth was used by my heirs. Were I to know, I might want to
change my mind.

So I might be in favor of some free market method of redistributing wealth
above and beyond whatever would be adequate to comfortably support ones
heirs. Although I am loathe to let government do it.

Stuart LaForge



From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 15:27:04 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 10:27:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Inheritance
In-Reply-To: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbDxNBOsn0++URDewEotDNrek36jErGorTZBxTmvnTLmw@mail.gmail.com>

So I might be in favor of some free market method of redistributing wealth
above and beyond whatever would be adequate to comfortably support ones
heirs. Although I am loathe to let government do it.

Stuart LaForge

Since you don't seem to have an idea of who should do it, why not gov.
taxes?  Otherwise how would you enforce it?

My son in law is fairly rich, but he told his kids that he would support
them through college and that's all.  He thinks they need to go out there
and do what he did - earn a lot of money.

Inasmuch as gov. protects us from the worst disasters, such as starving
(but not from being homeless if you are a vet), why feel a need to support
your kids?  I would not fault someone who was intent on spending it all and
leaving kids nothing.  Why reduce their incentive to work and earn?

If you want to leave them something, put it in their names before you die.

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 7:29 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

> In response to BillW, Dave Sill wrote:
>
> >> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 8:22 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > How do you that? Confiscate it and redistribute it? Who decides who
> gets
> >> some? And why stop with the money? What about real estate, businesses,
> etc?
> >> Shouldn't they also go to more deserving people than heirs?
> >
> >> yes
> >
> >Yes to all six questions or just the last one? I'm trying to understand
> >what you're advocating but a one word answer doesn't help. At any rate,
> >what you're suggesting is not in any way libertarian, which I thought you
> >claimed to be.
>
> Actually, a libertarian argument could be made for inheritance tax or
> other forms, preferably free market, of redistribution of the wealth of
> the deceased.
>
> First off, inheritance is a form of economic rent which is a technical
> term for unearned wealth gained in the absense of production value, risk,
> or opportunity cost. All forms of economic rent are market inefficiencies
> and are considered to be factors in the unprecedented inequality we see
> today.
>
> Second, the USian founding fathers thought that inheritance was part of
> the trappings of European aristocracy. They abolished the English laws of
> primogeniture in the colonies because they felt it wrong for the dead to
> enforce their will upon the living in perpetuity and they were worried it
> would give rise to an American nobility.
>
> Ur economist Adam Smith had this to say on the subject:
>
> "A power to dispose of estates forever is manifestly absurd. The earth and
> the fulness of it belongs to every generation, and the preceding one can
> have no right to bind it up from posterity. Such extension of property is
> quite unnatural. There is no point more difficult to account for than the
> right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death."-
> Adam Smith
>
> https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_
> fathers
>
> As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I feel that inheritance
> brings into conflict my values of freedom and meritocracy. Whereas a part
> of me wants the ability to distribute my estate as I see fit, another part
> of me realizes that I will have no way of knowing whether I would approve
> of how that wealth was used by my heirs. Were I to know, I might want to
> change my mind.
>
> So I might be in favor of some free market method of redistributing wealth
> above and beyond whatever would be adequate to comfortably support ones
> heirs. Although I am loathe to let government do it.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 15:31:29 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 10:31:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY1O9oTxSaOK=Mmi0PqT0WpMrq3Ls6TsdSVVP1YJ36MMw@mail.gmail.com>

. Now shipping from Amazon (4 DVDs for a reasonable $15
<http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=O.SqQ&m=JWv2i9MQoSAPkr&b=ifK.jdfRvGcNacU_47BOMw>).
Fun to see them again? You bet your bippy!
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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Sat Sep  9 15:58:21 2017
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 08:58:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Voynich solved?
Message-ID: <E32681F2-A364-4403-B411-3E4E9F83F2E8@yahoo.com>

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/voynich-manuscript-solution/

So it's just abbreviated Medieval Latin?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 16:30:31 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 12:30:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Inheritance
In-Reply-To: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eYRoAcXvAvvFCvr0H2PdQEgQ-m4fECVvBwwF2hjZ5JUg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> Actually, a libertarian argument could be made for inheritance tax or
> other forms, preferably free market, of redistribution of the wealth of
> the deceased.
>
> First off, inheritance is a form of economic rent which is a technical
> term for unearned wealth gained in the absense of production value, risk,
> or opportunity cost. All forms of economic rent are market inefficiencies
> and are considered to be factors in the unprecedented inequality we see
> today.
>

 OK, but then aren't gifts also rent?

Second, the USian founding fathers thought that inheritance was part of
> the trappings of European aristocracy. They abolished the English laws of
> primogeniture in the colonies because they felt it wrong for the dead to
> enforce their will upon the living in perpetuity and they were worried it
> would give rise to an American nobility.
>

But we still have inheritance.

Ur economist Adam Smith had this to say on the subject:
>
> "A power to dispose of estates forever is manifestly absurd. The earth and
> the fulness of it belongs to every generation, and the preceding one can
> have no right to bind it up from posterity. Such extension of property is
> quite unnatural. There is no point more difficult to account for than the
> right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after death."-
> Adam Smith
>

Property ownership "forever" is absurd. Property (land) ownership at all is
"quite unnatural". I'm not sure how you can prevent a parent from giving
something to a child. And under the default American rules, property is
divided among all of the heirs, so if you continue that "forever", the
heirs will be inheriting microscopic parcels.

https://www.economist.com/blogs/lexington/2010/10/estate_tax_and_founding_
> fathers
>
> As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I feel that inheritance
> brings into conflict my values of freedom and meritocracy. Whereas a part
> of me wants the ability to distribute my estate as I see fit, another part
> of me realizes that I will have no way of knowing whether I would approve
> of how that wealth was used by my heirs. Were I to know, I might want to
> change my mind.
>
> So I might be in favor of some free market method of redistributing wealth
> above and beyond whatever would be adequate to comfortably support ones
> heirs. Although I am loathe to let government do it.
>

I sorta think people should be able to decide what to do with their
holdings, I'm OK with gifts while one is alive and bequests or inheritance
at death. If one wants to set up a trust or fund that distributes it, or
donate to an existing one, that's fine too. I'm strongly opposed to
government intervention in the process.

-Dave
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Sep  9 17:33:40 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 10:33:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY1O9oTxSaOK=Mmi0PqT0WpMrq3Ls6TsdSVVP1YJ36MMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEY1O9oTxSaOK=Mmi0PqT0WpMrq3Ls6TsdSVVP1YJ36MMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a801d32991$c79083d0$56b18b70$@att.net>

 

 

>? Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in

 

. Now shipping from Amazon ( <http://clicks.aweber.com/y/ct/?l=O.SqQ&m=JWv2i9MQoSAPkr&b=ifK.jdfRvGcNacU_47BOMw> 4 DVDs for a reasonable $15). Fun to see them again? You bet your bippy!

 

 

 

Eh, before you give 15 perfectly good dollars for Laugh-In DVDs, you might want to see if you can find some on YouTube or some place and remind yourself (if you can) what we found so hilarious about these back in 1970.  It remains a mystery.

 

For starters, there are so many contemporary cultural references that if you were not there and then, you won?t get the jokes.  Good chance you won?t even see what is funny about it, the more subtle stuff such as: Sock it to me.  Why is ?sock it to me? funny?  Anyone know?  Do listen to your aged Uncle Spike, who was there and had it explained to me by my best friend who was black.  This meant his world was open to many things the rest of us didn?t understand.

 

The birth control pill was introduced in the early 60s but they required a doctor visit which cost money (even back then.)  Good old-fashioned latex still accomplished the same thing, better in a way, for it also reduced risk of spreading STDs which were rampant in those more open-minded times, and they were cheap.  Consequence: richer women used BCPs while poorer couples used condoms.  Urban slang resulted from a discussion between a couple that might go as follows.  

 

He: Wanna?  

She: Sock it to me baby.

 

Translation from urban slang:

 

He:  Shall we engage in sexual activity including copulation?

She: Indeed, sir, however do use a latex protection device, for I am not currently using the expensive pharmaceutical product known as birth control pills.

 

For brevity and decreased demand for mastery of vocabulary, the urban slang was preferred by many, if not most participants.  Furthermore, just singing the song was an ambiguous invitation to copulate.  (This is one of the delightful aspects of the Rock and Roll genre in general (which I find missing into today?s Hip-Hop (but my criticism is not aimed at Hip Hop in general (well OK it is (I can fart better music than that revolting tripe.)))))

 

Rowan and Martin picked it up and had teenage Goldie Hawn prancing about in a string bikini singing Sock It To Me Baby, which pushed the limits of free speech at the time.  Needless to say, current pushers of the limits of free speech are far less entertaining than the very nearly naked teenage Hawn.

 

Conclusion: the humor of Rowan and Martin didn?t age well, but some humor from those days is still hilarious to this day.  Before I give my example (which is also available on DVD) might someone else here, such as BillW or anyone else who was there offer a suggestion?

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Sep  9 18:19:39 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 11:19:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a cryonics take on:  RE:  Inheritance
Message-ID: <011901d32998$33e4b230$9bae1690$@att.net>

Skip to last paragraph if you are short of time or humor:

 

>?] On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] Inheritance

 


Actually, a libertarian argument could be made for inheritance tax or
other forms, preferably free market, of redistribution of the wealth of
the deceased?.  Someone write, possibly Stuart

 

>?Property ownership "forever" is absurd. Property (land) ownership at all is "quite unnatural". I'm not sure how you can prevent a parent from giving something to a child. And under the default American rules, property is divided among all of the heirs, so if you continue that "forever", the heirs will be inheriting microscopic parcels.  -Dave 

 

The notion of microscopic parcels is intriguing if we can find a way to make it happen.  

 

I am a co-owner of a parcel in West Virginia with approximately 130 relatives, bequeathed to us (his descendants) by our great great grandfather in 1910.  The state of West Virginia doesn?t care how many owners, so long as the taxes are paid.  My share is $2.30 a year, which is annoying, since the cost of the postage is a nearly 20% of the tax, and they don?t let us pay ahead.  

 

The way the will was written, any of his descendants can apply for a share of ownership of that (useless) parcel.  Can it be a thousand people?  A million?  We would do the taxes by PayPal, fractions of a cent?  Perhaps the state arbitrarily set one dollar a year as a minimum property tax, then sit back and rake in the dough.  The state of West Virginia has honored that will for over 100 yrs.

 

Two TV shows I found quite entertaining deals with Britain?s take on inheritance.  The Brits live quite well, as shown in Jeeves&Wooster, and in Downton Abbey.  

 

For instance, this is BillK?s house:

 



 

?or one of them, perhaps his summer cottage, or a guest house adjoining the main residence.  

 

The owner of the estate in 1820 (Mr. Darcy) willed it to one of his direct male descendants, which led to the kind of silliness such as the puzzling fact that to this day no one actually knows the first name of Mr. Darcy, even his many servants and classmates in first grade.  They always just called him Mister, or as is the playground custom, shortened it to Mist.  Bullies would further shorten it to Mis, which then led to the customary friendly playground fist fights we boys know so well, the kind which seldom led to anything more serious than a knocked-out tooth or destroyed an eye (but not the spare.)

 

The home belonged to the Crawley family Sir Watkyn Bassett but passed to the Crawley family after Sir Watkyn had only the airhead daughter Madeline and no sons, but soon came into the possession of BillK after Lord Grantham failed to produce male heirs.  It didn?t matter that his oldest daughter Mary is a stunning beauty.  So BillK?s grandparents ended up there, after having inherited it from Max More?s great grandparents.

 

Enough fun and games.

 

If we don?t work out all the details on inheritance, it has a big impact on our fondest notions of cryonics.  If inheritance law is weakened we run the risk of the cryonauts? stored (somehow) fortunes being taxed away.  Future generations are unlikely to bother uploading the brain of a pauper, but rather they might treat them the way we treat paupers today: toss them in the trash.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Sep  9 18:28:22 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 11:28:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Voynich solved?
In-Reply-To: <E32681F2-A364-4403-B411-3E4E9F83F2E8@yahoo.com>
References: <E32681F2-A364-4403-B411-3E4E9F83F2E8@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRTCvsOR_njckuKuSLdmFEA=hQuc_9yeYPw=HKkeTOHqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Dan Ust <dan_ust at yahoo.com> wrote:
> https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/voynich-manuscript-solution/
>
> So it's just abbreviated Medieval Latin?

The truth behind mysteries is often far less epic than people imagine.


From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 01:32:04 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2017 18:32:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] a cryonics take on: RE: Inheritance
In-Reply-To: <011901d32998$33e4b230$9bae1690$@att.net>
References: <011901d32998$33e4b230$9bae1690$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTqnYW7bT2S0Oi0wg-vcrxMGQuUut=1jETu8qrShj03pA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 11:19 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> If we don?t work out all the details on inheritance, it has a big impact
> on our fondest notions of cryonics.  If inheritance law is weakened we run
> the risk of the cryonauts? stored (somehow) fortunes being taxed away.
> Future generations are unlikely to bother uploading the brain of a pauper,
> but rather they might treat them the way we treat paupers today: toss them
> in the trash.
>

Real estate might be taxed, but raw cash and other purely financial (as in
non-physical) investments tend only to be taxed on the profits.

So, put your assets into a slow-growth fund managed by the living in your
name, to be returned to you upon your resurrection.  Target something that,
after taxes and fees, grows faster than inflation, with orders to switch to
some other such fund if the initial one fails to meet this performance
target.

If you have enough in that the fees can set up the manager for life, and
the manager after that, and so on, there is a good chance the money will
still be around for you.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 04:55:27 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 06:55:27 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>

Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones

The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
technological resurrection...

https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 14:28:33 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 07:28:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
Message-ID: <CACBFB0C-F704-4B6B-AF40-90DDA871E491@gmail.com>

https://mises.org/blog/how-feds-blocked-effective-flood-insurance

The short of it: federal interventions destroyed a private flood insurance market and created perverse incentives for development in flood plains.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From spike66 at att.net  Sun Sep 10 15:19:12 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 08:19:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
In-Reply-To: <CACBFB0C-F704-4B6B-AF40-90DDA871E491@gmail.com>
References: <CACBFB0C-F704-4B6B-AF40-90DDA871E491@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d32a48$29204930$7b60db90$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:29 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?

 

https://mises.org/blog/how-feds-blocked-effective-flood-insurance

 

The short of it: federal interventions destroyed a private flood insurance market and created perverse incentives for development in flood plains.

Regards,





Dan

 

 

 

 

Incentives ja, perverse no.  We see it all the time, even now.  In 2008 we learned the phrase ?Too big to fail.?  This is a version of that.

 

In 1945, the US Navy needed a test lab, so they built China Lake California which is only a lake once in a long while.  The rest of the time it is a dry lake bed.  They built the lab right there because it was easy to build: didn?t need to clear trees, most of the ground was hard enough you didn?t even need a foundation: a building could be plopped right on the rock-hard ground (not exaggerating a bit (it is easy to find even homes there built with no foundation (they just hammered together some form-boards, poured on cement, slammed together a house on top of it.)))

 

Problem: the entire town of Ridgecrest CA is built in a flood plane, as we found out on 15 August 1984.  It doesn?t rain much, but about once or twice a century it comes down hard and if so, all that water has to end up in China Lake.

 

Good old Google maps Sat-view makes it pretty easy to see the flood plane:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5317451,-117.7743442,134641m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

It is cheaper to rebuild houses a couple times a century than it is to build them right to start with.

 

Parting note, a funny one: after the 1984 event, they studied ways to protect the labs from flooding, see if there was a way to divert water, pump it away, etc.  The bottom floor had filled up with muddy, silty, rattlesnakey water which stayed there for weeks, causing all manner of difficulty.  

 

After extensive study, they decided on the best way to protect the lab and implemented it: set up huge storage tanks with fresh water, then when it is clear the lab flooding cannot be prevented, they open it up, fill the bottom floor with clean water.  Flood subsides, pump out the clean water, small mess instead of a huge one.

 

Sounds a little crazy, but that turned out to be the best engineering solution in that case.

 

spike

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From hibbard at wisc.edu  Sun Sep 10 15:36:17 2017
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 10:36:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1709101030540.30618@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

Spike wrote:

> Rowan and Martin picked it up and had teenage Goldie
> Hawn prancing about in a string bikini singing Sock
> It To Me Baby, which pushed the limits of free speech
> at the time.

Thanks for the explanation.

I recall Goldie in a rubber "bald" wig saying
"I've never been bald on TV before." Bald rhymes
with balled and rumor was that the censors didn't
get the joke.

Not quite an extropy topic, but at least not about
he who must not be named.

Bill


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 17:01:31 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 12:01:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1709101030540.30618@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1709101030540.30618@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEatgz9rQZTV46sh=OKhcwWk+7j1oJ+df_oBPwvAtCr1TQ@mail.gmail.com>

Not quite an extropy topic, but at least not about
he who must not be named.

Bill

Well, yes.  Humor trumps politics any day!

bill w

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Spike wrote:
>
> Rowan and Martin picked it up and had teenage Goldie
>> Hawn prancing about in a string bikini singing Sock
>> It To Me Baby, which pushed the limits of free speech
>> at the time.
>>
>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I recall Goldie in a rubber "bald" wig saying
> "I've never been bald on TV before." Bald rhymes
> with balled and rumor was that the censors didn't
> get the joke.
>
> Not quite an extropy topic, but at least not about
> he who must not be named.
>
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From mlatorra at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 17:04:30 2017
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 13:04:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] laugh-in
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1709101030540.30618@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1709101030540.30618@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPGs0J9V1PhCavf2WmO5ec8ok-b7Q-QnMsRpdz1eLf0ET8XC_Q@mail.gmail.com>

As a teenager, I watched this show avidly. The one clip I would definitely
like to see again featured Republican presidential candidate Richard Nixon
facing the camera while asking "Sock it to me?"

The late 60s and early 70s were another world.

Mike LaTorra

On Sep 10, 2017 12:39 PM, "Bill Hibbard" <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:

> Spike wrote:
>
> Rowan and Martin picked it up and had teenage Goldie
>> Hawn prancing about in a string bikini singing Sock
>> It To Me Baby, which pushed the limits of free speech
>> at the time.
>>
>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> I recall Goldie in a rubber "bald" wig saying
> "I've never been bald on TV before." Bald rhymes
> with balled and rumor was that the censors didn't
> get the joke.
>
> Not quite an extropy topic, but at least not about
> he who must not be named.
>
> Bill
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 10 21:56:58 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 14:56:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Inheritance
In-Reply-To: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e0dfc4880990a1fea5876e593f5beacb.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <7AAE8F8F-7B10-44D1-B427-94B31F408A38@gmail.com>

On Saturday, September 9, 2017, 5:38:31 AM PDT, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> Actually, a libertarian argument could be made for
> inheritance tax or other forms, preferably free market,
> of redistribution of the wealth of the deceased.

Oh?

> First off, inheritance is a form of economic rent which
> is a technical term for unearned wealth gained in the
> absense of production value, risk, or opportunity cost.
> All forms of economic rent are market inefficiencies and
> are considered to be factors in the unprecedented
> inequality we see today.

That presumes inheritance is economic rent and that the concept of "economic rent" is sound. Georgists and geoists often use economic rent arguments, and most libertarians I know of don't accept their views on this.

Further, libertarianism shouldn't be reduced to market efficiencies or even economics. What's efficient really depends on one's ends and means and it's hard to apply this beyond inidividuals -- say, to whole communities. (That is, unless you don't mind casting certain folks out of the community. For instance, it might seem economically efficient for the ruling class to tax this or that because it wants some projects done -- meddling in foreign lands, keeping undesirables out of nice neighborhoods, indoctrinating youths so they don't get uppity when they become adults), but those forced to pay the tax obviously might not agree.

That said, libertarians should be against wealth that stolen from others or otherwise unjustly gotten, but this doesn't apply to inheritance per se. With inheritance, it would depend on how the estate were gained. For instance, if a person justly obtains their estate (using this to mean whatever wealth they have to pass on), then there's nothing as such with that person passing it on -- in a sense, gifting it -- to someone else upon their death. That even goes if this person worked hard and saved merely to give their estate to a wastrel/spendthrift. In fact, the knee jerk libertarian position should be that this estate is not really anyone else's to determine how it gets used. (If not, then why even wait for death and inheritance? Why not look at people now who, say, work hard, and spend their wealth on things you don't approve of or think are "inefficient" and compell them not to spend it that way? Would that be at all libertarian?)

If the estate is unjustly gotten, that's another matter, but then that's not a problem with inheritance, but with unjust acquisition of property -- usually getting something via theft or fraud.

> Second, the USian founding fathers thought that inheritance
> was part of the trappings of European aristocracy. They
> abolished the English laws of primogeniture in the colonies
> because they felt it wrong for the dead to enforce their will
> upon the living in perpetuity and they were worried it
> would give rise to an American nobility.

The Founding Fathers are not the touchstone of what's libertarian. In fact, at best, some of them were proto-libertarians, and many of them held openly anti-libertarian views. Heck, being for any taxation at all is anti-libertarian. But it's more than just that. Some were for slavery, conscription, a state church, restrictions on trade and immigration, and state enforcement of sexual mores (well beyond, say, laws against assault and rape).

I'm not trying here to make some ahistorical argument, but even if we accept that many of the Founders were in, say, the classical liberal tradition from which libertarianism springs, their particular arguments back then aren't essential to libertarianism today. (And the argument that libertarianism is part of the classical liberal tradition doesn't equate it with all forms of classical liberalism. Obviously, libertarianism is far more radical than most forms of classical libertarianism, including the forms expoused in the Founding Era.)

> Ur economist Adam Smith had this to say on the subject:

Nor is libertarianism merely a confluence with Adam Smith's views.

> "A power to dispose of estates forever is manifestly absurd.
> The earth and the fulness of it belongs to every generation,
> and the preceding one can have no right to bind it up from
> posterity. Such extension of property is quite unnatural.
> There is no point more difficult to account for than the
> right we conceive men to have to dispose of their goods after
> death."- Adam Smith

Libertarians actually vary on how long property can be owned, specifically with regard to whether any property can be owned in perpetuity. There's some idea of what constitutes abandonment, but then there's no essentially libertarian view that death of the owner means the owner's wishes for how their property should be handled are of no account.

> As someone with libertarian leanings myself, I feel that inheritance
> brings into conflict my values of freedom and meritocracy. Whereas
> a part of me wants the ability to distribute my estate as I see fit,
> another part of me realizes that I will have no way of knowing whether
> I would approve of how that wealth was used by my heirs. Were I to
> know, I might want to change my mind.

Well, this is a problem with giving wealth to anyone. Once its theirs, they get to use it as they please (for libertarians, within the constraint of not harming anyone else with it). Yes, death introduces a special limit on this: you're no longer around to guide heirs or control your wealth. But this is an agent problem that applies to gifting in general. And since other people might not have the same fears as you, why not let them determine where their estates go rather than give the tax authority -- i.e., the state -- determining that?

> So I might be in favor of some free market method of redistributing
> wealth above and beyond whatever would be adequate to comfortably
> support ones heirs. Although I am loathe to let government do it.

The libertarian way would be to let each person determine this for themselves. I really don't see the social problem here -- other than that some folks won't approve of someone they don't like inheriting a fortune.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep 11 04:28:57 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 21:28:57 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ants again
Message-ID: <020a01d32ab6$7cfb6120$76f22360$@att.net>

 

 

Recall my conjectures that ants engaged in mortal combat will not
discontinue their struggles to bite an intruder.

 

This evening I happened upon an ant war and scooped a pile of them into my
hand:

 

 



 

I held them for about three to four minutes, by which time they were
wandering up my arm.

 

In agreement with previous experiment and my understanding of evolutionary
mechanisms, not one of them bit me, not one bite did I get.

 

Ants are cool.

 

spike

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From cryptaxe at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 05:30:00 2017
From: cryptaxe at gmail.com (CryptAxe)
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2017 22:30:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ants again
In-Reply-To: <020a01d32ab6$7cfb6120$76f22360$@att.net>
References: <020a01d32ab6$7cfb6120$76f22360$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAF5CFkiUskihre523E4e1eLdDUQi0g6Yn=YOX-XGnwnZKeVEOA@mail.gmail.com>

So does this make you ant god? :)

Do you think they are so focused on murdering eachother that they don't
notice you? Why don't they team up against the bigger enemy?

I wonder what kind of reaction humans would have if something bigger and
smarter scooped us all up right now in the middle of our bickering?

On Sep 10, 2017 9:46 PM, "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:





Recall my conjectures that ants engaged in mortal combat will not
discontinue their struggles to bite an intruder.



This evening I happened upon an ant war and scooped a pile of them into my
hand:







I held them for about three to four minutes, by which time they were
wandering up my arm.



In agreement with previous experiment and my understanding of evolutionary
mechanisms, not one of them bit me, not one bite did I get.



Ants are cool.



spike

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep 11 13:42:09 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 06:42:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ants again
In-Reply-To: <CAF5CFkiUskihre523E4e1eLdDUQi0g6Yn=YOX-XGnwnZKeVEOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <020a01d32ab6$7cfb6120$76f22360$@att.net>
 <CAF5CFkiUskihre523E4e1eLdDUQi0g6Yn=YOX-XGnwnZKeVEOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101d32b03$c4bc3000$4e349000$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of CryptAxe
Subject: Re: [ExI] ants again

 

>?So does this make you ant god? :) 

 

Ja, and I demand they worship me on bended knee (all six.)

 

>?Do you think they are so focused on murdering eachother that they don't notice you?

 

This is an interesting question.  Ants (and bees) don?t really reason through a plan and carry it out (as far as I can tell.)  They just act on instinct driven by the chemical environment in their tiny brains.  But other than that, they aren?t much like humans.

 

>?Why don't they team up against the bigger enemy?

 

Hard to say.  Consider this however.  We know that they don?t really act on command of a queen (she is just as dumb as her sisters.)  They don?t have any kind of audible commands they give each other, no waving the antennae like semaphore flags or anything.  It is all chemical signaling that makes them go and they act in hive-minded unison when that chemical or pheromone is present.

 

We have ant control poisons which work to some extent which have unintended and undesirable side effects.  Wouldn?t it be cool if we figured out how to synthesize whatever drives them and cause a pest colony to drop what they are doing and fight each other?  Or how about a chemical which is laid down in a trail carried by a tiny crawl-bot which goes inside your walls and finds the termite colony, then instructs them to fight the termites?  We find two warring colonies, a big pile of them like I found yesterday, scoop a million of them into a cup, put in a drop of chemical tranquilizer which tells them ?calm down, let that bitch go.? 

 

We take them to our house, they go up the chem-trail, fight the termites to the death.  Then they perish, because there is no queen in an ant war.

 

>?I wonder what kind of reaction humans would have if something bigger and smarter scooped us all up right now in the middle of our bickering?

 

 

Wouldn?t it be cool if we were to stop fighting each other and work on only real problems?

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 16:33:34 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 11:33:34 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ants again
In-Reply-To: <004101d32b03$c4bc3000$4e349000$@att.net>
References: <020a01d32ab6$7cfb6120$76f22360$@att.net>
 <CAF5CFkiUskihre523E4e1eLdDUQi0g6Yn=YOX-XGnwnZKeVEOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <004101d32b03$c4bc3000$4e349000$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ=G7JFjniWbkyHt6Nub5Yz9zV9bXMuD0kpzoFAizCB5w@mail.gmail.com>

  Wouldn?t it be cool if we figured out how to synthesize whatever drives
them and cause a pest colony to drop what they are doing and fight each
other?  spike

I thought you just had to take a few of one and dump them on the other's
hill and vice versa.  bill w
----------

Wouldn?t it be cool if we were to stop fighting each other and work on only
real problems?



spike


I truly wish everyone would read "Moral Tribes";. Mostly utilitarian morals
at the end and new ways of looking at the US versus THEM problems.  But it
may be pie in the sky - it requires a metaethics that enables people of
different beliefs to compromise.  Otherwise we will always have 'my god is
the only one'  - 'no mine is' and on and on ad nauseam ad infinitum.  Or
substitute for 'god' any set of beliefs of your tribe.


bill w





On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:42 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] *On
> Behalf Of *CryptAxe
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ants again
>
>
>
> >?So does this make you ant god? :)
>
>
>
> Ja, and I demand they worship me on bended knee (all six.)
>
>
>
> >?Do you think they are so focused on murdering eachother that they don't
> notice you?
>
>
>
> This is an interesting question.  Ants (and bees) don?t really reason
> through a plan and carry it out (as far as I can tell.)  They just act on
> instinct driven by the chemical environment in their tiny brains.  But
> other than that, they aren?t much like humans.
>
>
>
> >?Why don't they team up against the bigger enemy?
>
>
>
> Hard to say.  Consider this however.  We know that they don?t really act
> on command of a queen (she is just as dumb as her sisters.)  They don?t
> have any kind of audible commands they give each other, no waving the
> antennae like semaphore flags or anything.  It is all chemical signaling
> that makes them go and they act in hive-minded unison when that chemical or
> pheromone is present.
>
>
>
> We have ant control poisons which work to some extent which have
> unintended and undesirable side effects.  Wouldn?t it be cool if we figured
> out how to synthesize whatever drives them and cause a pest colony to drop
> what they are doing and fight each other?  Or how about a chemical which is
> laid down in a trail carried by a tiny crawl-bot which goes inside your
> walls and finds the termite colony, then instructs them to fight the
> termites?  We find two warring colonies, a big pile of them like I found
> yesterday, scoop a million of them into a cup, put in a drop of chemical
> tranquilizer which tells them ?calm down, let that bitch go.?
>
>
>
> We take them to our house, they go up the chem-trail, fight the termites
> to the death.  Then they perish, because there is no queen in an ant war.
>
>
>
> >?I wonder what kind of reaction humans would have if something bigger and
> smarter scooped us all up right now in the middle of our bickering?
>
>
>
>
>
> Wouldn?t it be cool if we were to stop fighting each other and work on
> only real problems?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From interzone at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 20:36:23 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 16:36:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Quantum memory update
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-tagpyVY7Nk3YOkQCNHw-QWzk-5d1VnNsqKrHynpMfGg@mail.gmail.com>

Curious if John or others have any thoughts on this:

For the first time, an international team led by engineers at Caltech has
developed a computer chip with nanoscale optical quantum memory.

Quantum memory stores information in a similar fashion to the way
traditional computer memory does, but on individual quantum particles--in
this case, photons of light. This allows it to take advantage of the
peculiar features of quantum mechanics (such as superposition, in which a
quantum element can exist in two distinct states simultaneously) to store
data more efficiently and securely.

"Such a device is an essential component for the future development of
optical quantum networks that could be used to transmit quantum
information," says Andrei Faraon (BS '04), assistant professor of applied
physics and materials science in the Division of Engineering and Applied
Science at Caltech, and the corresponding author of a paper describing the
new chip.

The study appeared online ahead of publication by Science magazine on
August 31.

"This technology not only leads to extreme miniaturization of quantum
memory devices, it also enables better control of the interactions between
individual photons and atoms," says Tian Zhong, lead author of the study
and a Caltech postdoctoral scholar. Zhong is also an acting assistant
professor of molecular engineering at the University of Chicago, where he
will set up a laboratory to develop quantum photonic technologies in March
2018.

https://www.ecnmag.com/news/2017/09/first-chip-nanoscale-optical-quantum-memory-developed
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 11 21:59:49 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:59:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
In-Reply-To: <001e01d32a48$29204930$7b60db90$@att.net>
References: <CACBFB0C-F704-4B6B-AF40-90DDA871E491@gmail.com>
 <001e01d32a48$29204930$7b60db90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <464A79D7-549B-4408-8674-7F1B846A9C2B@gmail.com>

> On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:19 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:29 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
>  
> https://mises.org/blog/how-feds-blocked-effective-flood-insurance
>  
> The short of it: federal interventions destroyed a private flood insurance market and created perverse incentives for development in flood plains.
> 
>  
> Incentives ja, perverse no.

"Perverse" in this context means the incentive perverts the outcome -- not that it's rare.

>   We see it all the time, even now.  In 2008 we learned the phrase ?Too big to fail.?  This is a version of that.
>  
> In 1945, the US Navy needed a test lab, so they built China Lake California which is only a lake once in a long while.  The rest of the time it is a dry lake bed.  They built the lab right there because it was easy to build: didn?t need to clear trees, most of the ground was hard enough you didn?t even need a foundation: a building could be plopped right on the rock-hard ground (not exaggerating a bit (it is easy to find even homes there built with no foundation (they just hammered together some form-boards, poured on cement, slammed together a house on top of it.)))
>  
> Problem: the entire town of Ridgecrest CA is built in a flood plane, as we found out on 15 August 1984.  It doesn?t rain much, but about once or twice a century it comes down hard and if so, all that water has to end up in China Lake.
>  
> Good old Google maps Sat-view makes it pretty easy to see the flood plane:
>  
> https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5317451,-117.7743442,134641m/data=!3m1!1e3
>  
> It is cheaper to rebuild houses a couple times a century than it is to build them right to start with.
>  
> Parting note, a funny one: after the 1984 event, they studied ways to protect the labs from flooding, see if there was a way to divert water, pump it away, etc.  The bottom floor had filled up with muddy, silty, rattlesnakey water which stayed there for weeks, causing all manner of difficulty.  
>  
> After extensive study, they decided on the best way to protect the lab and implemented it: set up huge storage tanks with fresh water, then when it is clear the lab flooding cannot be prevented, they open it up, fill the bottom floor with clean water.  Flood subsides, pump out the clean water, small mess instead of a huge one.
>  
> Sounds a little crazy, but that turned out to be the best engineering solution in that case.

That's not what happened in the cases detailed in the article. People would've stayed away from these particular flood plains. And there were other places left to live.

Even in the example you give -- a Navy facility -- the incentives are skewed because the Navy is funded via takings from the tax base. Thus, solving the problem of flooding is merely a matter of getting more money from the tax base. Were it funded voluntarily, its priorities might be very different, and it might not have built a base out there.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap


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From dan_ust at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 11 21:58:39 2017
From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 14:58:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
In-Reply-To: <001e01d32a48$29204930$7b60db90$@att.net>
References: <CACBFB0C-F704-4B6B-AF40-90DDA871E491@gmail.com>
 <001e01d32a48$29204930$7b60db90$@att.net>
Message-ID: <2E5B52E6-2B91-463C-97A6-C1FDDC72E41C@yahoo.com>

On Sep 10, 2017, at 8:19 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>  
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 7:29 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] The history of a moral hazard?
>  
> https://mises.org/blog/how-feds-blocked-effective-flood-insurance
>  
> The short of it: federal interventions destroyed a private flood insurance market and created perverse incentives for development in flood plains.
> 
>  
> Incentives ja, perverse no.

"Perverse" in this context means the incentive perverts the outcome -- not that it's rare.

>   We see it all the time, even now.  In 2008 we learned the phrase ?Too big to fail.?  This is a version of that.
>  
> In 1945, the US Navy needed a test lab, so they built China Lake California which is only a lake once in a long while.  The rest of the time it is a dry lake bed.  They built the lab right there because it was easy to build: didn?t need to clear trees, most of the ground was hard enough you didn?t even need a foundation: a building could be plopped right on the rock-hard ground (not exaggerating a bit (it is easy to find even homes there built with no foundation (they just hammered together some form-boards, poured on cement, slammed together a house on top of it.)))
>  
> Problem: the entire town of Ridgecrest CA is built in a flood plane, as we found out on 15 August 1984.  It doesn?t rain much, but about once or twice a century it comes down hard and if so, all that water has to end up in China Lake.
>  
> Good old Google maps Sat-view makes it pretty easy to see the flood plane:
>  
> https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5317451,-117.7743442,134641m/data=!3m1!1e3
>  
> It is cheaper to rebuild houses a couple times a century than it is to build them right to start with.
>  
> Parting note, a funny one: after the 1984 event, they studied ways to protect the labs from flooding, see if there was a way to divert water, pump it away, etc.  The bottom floor had filled up with muddy, silty, rattlesnakey water which stayed there for weeks, causing all manner of difficulty. 
>  
> After extensive study, they decided on the best way to protect the lab and implemented it: set up huge storage tanks with fresh water, then when it is clear the lab flooding cannot be prevented, they open it up, fill the bottom floor with clean water.  Flood subsides, pump out the clean water, small mess instead of a huge one.
>  
> Sounds a little crazy, but that turned out to be the best engineering solution in that case.

That's not what happened in the cases detailed in the article. People would've stayed away from these particular flood plains. And there were other places left to live.

Even in the example you give -- a Navy facility -- the incentives are skewed because the Navy is funded via takings from the tax base. Thus, solving the problem of flooding is merely a matter of getting more money from the tax base. Were it funded voluntarily, its priorities might be very different, and it might not have built a base out there.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 12 00:12:46 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 19:12:46 -0500
Subject: [ExI] .,experian hack
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb4JkS-HedGBEQN025xFc8N+RAs9s1KBKZp+WtHnmSZQg@mail.gmail.com>

So - now that everyone's info is out there somewhere, what do we do?

Freeze the Experian account so the bad guys can't get a credit report in
our name?

Help!

bill w
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Sep 12 00:52:35 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 20:52:35 -0400
Subject: [ExI] .,experian hack
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4JkS-HedGBEQN025xFc8N+RAs9s1KBKZp+WtHnmSZQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4JkS-HedGBEQN025xFc8N+RAs9s1KBKZp+WtHnmSZQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ck3WNK5ZN+LAki=sdXeXCFd1P6Hfu4MjALsJ5J8TGtog@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 8:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> So - now that everyone's info is out there somewhere, what do we do?
>
> Freeze the Experian account so the bad guys can't get a credit report in
> our name?
>
> Help!
>

Either freeze the major 3/4/5 credit reporting agencies (Transunion,
Equifax, Experian, Innovis, PRBC) or realize that with 150+ million
people's data stolen, it'll likely take them a while to get to you, and you
can deal with it in the usual ways. Unfortunately, the usual ways aren't
that pleasant/effective, and if the data released included credit scores,
thieves won't be using names randomly. I get a subscription to a credit
monitoring service through my employer and another courtesy of the OPM
after its major breach a few years ago, so I'll probably just take my
chances.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Sep 12 00:38:11 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 17:38:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Cities
In-Reply-To: <3FCD1C85-0A0D-4AED-906A-8DA9DAE5285F@taramayastales.com>
References: <8CFF6521-9346-4C78-B695-6CBB28FACE5D@taramayastales.com>
 <CALAdGNRHxBYGP1Omw-uQ-qJCJ6L26T6a=WUAXRF8rGvQaHseoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3FCD1C85-0A0D-4AED-906A-8DA9DAE5285F@taramayastales.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNT_jf3cM7y_vOfsi3m4nu0XZCG7+Tt2hdw-5vfK8sVR9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 2:44 PM, Tara Maya <tara at taramayastales.com> wrote:
> What do you think about building canals? You could have water-powered energy, transport and obviously the water itself all at once, so new cities would grow up alongside the canals. Of course, right now, the expense isn?t worth it, but could some technological innovations change that?

Again, you need some place that's worthwhile for the city to be.
Which spots along the canal would be more worthy than others?  A canal
would help with but not solve this issue.  If you're going to dig
canals for transport (of people, goods, and water), why would it not
be a superior use of resources (as in, achieve almost any result other
than "make a new city for the sake of making a new city" better) to
simply connect existing population centers, and thus help them expand.

> Those periods of Anglo-American history when cities have grown disproportionately to the countryside have been the difficult times, the bad times for the ordinary people (though often good times for the nobility, when labor was cheap). When the countryside or suburbs have grown, those are the good times for ordinary people, when the divergence between rich and poor goes down but average standard of living goes up. When housing in the country or suburbs is cheap, young people marry early, and have larger families. When housing is expensive, young people remain single longer, and live a larger portion of their lives in the city. Wages are suppressed by the excess urban population.

But is the growth of cities the cause or a result of this change in
disparity?  Or are they merely caused by the same factor?

> Obviously, a huge reason for this is the ongoing industrial and post-industrial revolutions, which make food production more efficient and thus slough off excess labor from the countryside to the city. But in the short term, this increase in urbanization (now over 50% world-wide) is not necessarily a good sign. Because cities are not really good places for family formation, or at least, not in the Anglo-American tradition. Those young people are supposed to match up and move out to a house with a yard. Where are they going to go? Where are they going to raise their children? Right now, in cities around the world, the answer is?in dense apartments, in shantytowns, in slums, in ghettos.

Really?  I personally am familiar with raising children in ordinary
houses, and I have lived almost all my life in the urban sprawl from
San Jose to San Francisco.  That aside, most apartments are not
comparable to the other three you list.  (There are apartments that
basically are slums, which you may have meant, but this seems to be a
minority of all apartments averaged across the entire world - though
there are certainly parts of the world where slum-quality apartments
are the majority.  See
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Housing_statistics
for some statistics.)

> If those people aren?t going to move back to the country or to the suburbs for family formation, and if urbanization is the future for everyone, we have to drastically change how cities work. Otherwise, expect the cities to do their real job?cut the population down ruthlessly.
>
> In so many science fiction futures, I see whole planets that are just one big city. Which I guess would work if you have dozens of other planets which are nothing but farm and forest. We don?t actually know how to build a self-sufficient city yet, a city that not only feeds itself, but breeds itself. Contrast us with termites and ants, that forage outside their next, but always return to it at night. Ants never invented suburbia.

I think you might be interested in a visualization exercise I tossed
out on this list some time ago: the design of a self-sufficient space
colony city, including space for families to form and raise children.

Take an O'Neill cylinder, a bit over 2 km diameter and about 5 km
long.  Spin to 1 G at the 1 km radius mark; put the housing there.
(About 30 km^2, at 20,000 people/km^2 - a bit above SF, somewhat below
NYC - that's 600,000 people.  A less dense suburban-style layout could
take it down to 60,000 people.  Reality would probably be between
those; since the limit would be hit by older, more built-up - and thus
more urbanized - cylinders, I've been assuming around 500,000.)  Make
another "deck" beneath that for hydroponics and water storage, both
for on-colony food production and as radiation shielding.  Reserve the
center for mass transit, city services, and industrial machinery
(particularly any industry that benefits from microgravity).

As the cylinder fills up, build another and connect through a (large)
airlock with mass transit.  Build more and tessellate as the colony
grows.  (If you need a specific layout, say a flat hexagonal pattern
with spokes - an innermost ring of 6 cylinders plus 6 more connecting
the ring's corners to the centerpoint, a second ring of 12 plus 18
connectors to the first ring, and so forth - adding adjacent layers at
about the same rate it adds rings.  Distribute solar panels along the
outermost ring's edge, moving them further out and building more as
new rings are constructed.  Given the population numbers, it might be
a while before there were more than 3 rings and/or 3 layers.)

Given that this city could build its own land as needed (assume an
economic engine capable of funding this, and city planners interested
in doing it for their own/their city's benefit), how would you design
the habitable areas?  Allow for gentrification of existing cylinders,
immigration (especially at first: quickly getting to 100,000 or
1,000,000 or however large it needs to be to be recognized as an
independent political entity), and the issues most Western cities pick
up if they last long enough.

What would the "frontier" (recently constructed) cylinders look like
as opposed to the original, innermost ones?

Would the fact that it is largely immune to terrestrial natural
disasters, and can control its own weather, substantially alter life
aboard?  (I suspect it would need rain every once in a while, to wash
the air and prevent buildup of pockets of CO2 or other unwanted gases,
but this could at least be scheduled and announced.)

Also, what do you think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_city ?



From spike66 at att.net  Tue Sep 12 01:45:14 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2017 18:45:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] .,experian hack
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb4JkS-HedGBEQN025xFc8N+RAs9s1KBKZp+WtHnmSZQg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb4JkS-HedGBEQN025xFc8N+RAs9s1KBKZp+WtHnmSZQg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01ba01d32b68$c7f14f70$57d3ee50$@att.net>

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 5:13 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] .,experian hack

 

So - now that everyone's info is out there somewhere, what do we do?

 

Freeze the Experian account so the bad guys can't get a credit report in our name?

 

Help!

 

bill w

 

 

I can see an upside to this.  Enough people?s private information was compromised that it would almost need to force credit companies to other means of verifying identity.  For instance, they could collect and store voice prints, they could require an applicant take and send a selfie with that day?s newspaper.  Scratch that, those went out of business.  They could have the applicant write the headline from some mainstream news source or that day?s stock market average, along with a selfie.  

 

We have long needed a better way to verify identity rather than the mother?s maiden name (which Ancestry.com ended.)  Now the huge Experian breach may force companies to do identity confirmation in a way that makes sense.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 05:47:55 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 22:47:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The state of modern corporate cybersecurity for the general
 public's important information
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRLfmy_FA_rUMCAv0bmFHoiFAF2XgDDSUfw8JuXKMDvsA@mail.gmail.com>

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/09/ayuda-help-equifax-has-my-data/

> It took almost no time for them to discover that an online portal designed to let Equifax employees in Argentina manage credit report disputes from consumers in that country was wide open, protected by perhaps the most easy-to-guess password combination ever: ?admin/admin.?



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 13:48:54 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:48:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Kahneman and underpowered studies
Message-ID: <B131AFE4-8ACC-40DA-82AD-8639EC076786@gmail.com>

http://retractionwatch.com/2017/02/20/placed-much-faith-underpowered-studies-nobel-prize-winner-admits-mistakes/

From earlier this year. Given how often I see his (and Tversky's) book cited, this is very interesting. 

Also, Retraction Watch looks like a great resource.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Sep 13 13:48:44 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 06:48:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] The state of modern corporate cybersecurity for the
	general public's important information
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRLfmy_FA_rUMCAv0bmFHoiFAF2XgDDSUfw8JuXKMDvsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALAdGNRLfmy_FA_rUMCAv0bmFHoiFAF2XgDDSUfw8JuXKMDvsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001d32c97$04f930c0$0eeb9240$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Subject: [ExI] The state of modern corporate cybersecurity for the general public's important information


https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/09/ayuda-help-equifax-has-my-data/


> It took almost no time for them to discover that an online portal designed to let Equifax employees in Argentina manage credit report disputes from consumers in that country was wide open, protected by perhaps the most easy-to-guess password combination ever: ?admin/admin.?

_______________________________________________


Ah, it's the old protected-from-our-stupidity-by-our-own-stupidity trick.  The bad guys couldn't even imagine a big important credit management outfit would leave the door so casually unlocked, so they didn't bother to even rattle the door.  Well, one of them did.  But that was sheer arrogance on his part, to even imagine Equifax would do such a thing, an insult to such a grand organization.

spike





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 15:32:42 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:32:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Kahneman and underpowered studies
In-Reply-To: <B131AFE4-8ACC-40DA-82AD-8639EC076786@gmail.com>
References: <B131AFE4-8ACC-40DA-82AD-8639EC076786@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbrDyO3YcF9GjnUxNvUD6uVt9Z2k1SXnhrZqqDPLQL9JA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> http://retractionwatch.com/2017/02/20/placed-much-faith-
> underpowered-studies-nobel-prize-winner-admits-mistakes/
>
>
> From earlier this year. Given how often I see his (and Tversky's) book
> cited, this is very interesting.
>
>
> Also, Retraction Watch looks like a great resource.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> ?It's not only Kahneman - it's everybody in psychology and several other
> fields as well.  I am sure most of us are aware of the cognitive biases
> prevalent in researchers, of which there are several.  Refusal of journals
> to publish negative results.  Acceptance of border line studies without
> replication, and a lot more. Increasing use of Bayes has been suggested as
> one fix.
>

?This does in no way invalidate most of Kahneman's and Tversky's work.
Priming has had very recent troubles too, though I have no doubts that it
is a real phenomenon..  (Insert cliche' here - more research is needed).

There is no question that subtle cues in our environment affect our
unconscious and then, later perhaps, our conscious.  Subliminal
perception?  Yes.

Bill W?

> ?
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Wed Sep 13 16:16:21 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 09:16:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how hard was it to see this coming?
Message-ID: <003201d32cab$a3e0ba00$eba22e00$@att.net>

 

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/12/voting-machines-can-be-hacke
d-without-evidence-com/?utm_source=onesignal
<http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/12/voting-machines-can-be-hack
ed-without-evidence-com/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_campaign=pushnotify&utm_me
dium=push> &utm_campaign=pushnotify&utm_medium=push

 

 

 

Stunning testimony: Voting machines can be hacked without a trace of
evidence

 

 

By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Tuesday, September 12, 2017

 

The country's voting machines are susceptible to hacking, which could be
done in a way so that it leaves no fingerprints, making it impossible to
know whether the outcome was changed, computer experts told President
Trump's voter integrity commission Tuesday.

 

The testimony marked a departure for the commission, which was formed to
look into fraud and barriers to voting, but which heard that a potentially
greater threat to confidence in American elections is the chance for enemy
actors to meddle.

 

"There's no perfect security; there's only degrees of insecurity," said
Ronald Rivest, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

He said hackers have myriad ways of attacking voting machines. "You don't
want to rest the election of the president on, 'Maybe the Wi-Fi was turned
on when it shouldn't have been.'"

 

He and two other computer security experts said bar codes on ballots and
smartphones in voting locations could give hackers a chance to rewrite
results in ways that couldn't be traceable, short of sampling of ballots or
hand recounts - and those work only in cases where there's a paper trail.

 

Andrew Appel, a professor at Princeton University, said it would be easy to
write a program that cheats on election results and deletes evidence of the
hack as soon as the results are reported.

 

The analysts didn't point to any specific election that they knew had been
compromised, but they said hackers likely would leave fingerprints only if
they wanted to be spotted and hurt confidence in the U.S. electoral system.

 

"To ignore the fact that the computers are completely hackable and to try to
run elections, as some states do, where they entirely rely on the word of a
computer program on who won is entirely irresponsible," Mr. Appel said.

 

The revelations stunned members of the Presidential Advisory Commission on
Election Integrity, which was in New Hampshire on Tuesday for its second
meeting.

"I'm sufficiently shaken," said Ken Blackwell, a commissioner and former
secretary of state in Ohio.

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 16:34:08 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 12:34:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Quantum memory update
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-tagpyVY7Nk3YOkQCNHw-QWzk-5d1VnNsqKrHynpMfGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJrqPH-tagpyVY7Nk3YOkQCNHw-QWzk-5d1VnNsqKrHynpMfGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3_v5Z-1XTdPJTHC4hS2tX31HygfMmJfCaYhtZu0R=8dg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 4:36 PM, Dylan Distasio <interzone at gmail.com> wrote:

?> ?
> Best wishes on staying safe!


?
Thanks
? ?
Dylan I'm fine, but the energy of the wind is proportional to the cube of
its speed so I now know what Samuel Johnson
? ?
meant when he said
? ?
"
*When a man knows he is to be hanged? ?it concentrates his mind wonderfully*".
Fortunately the sustained winds
? ?
of the storm had weakened from 180 mph to 90 mph by the time it hit me,
that was bad enough thank you very much but 180 would have been 8 times
worse.
?

> ?> ?
> Curious if John or others have any thoughts on this:
>
> https://www.ecnmag.com/news/2017/09/first-chip-nanoscale-
> optical-quantum-memory-developed
>

Historically optical technology is great at transferring quantum
information but not so good at processing it. The big roadblock is the
error rate, there are quantum error correcting algorithms that help but
those error algorithms are themselves subject to errors so a practical
quantum computer big enough to do something useful would need the intrinsic
errors to be somewhat less than 1%, this one is 3%. Maybe they can improve
it but getting those last few percentage points is hard.

?
On the face of it the Microsoft
? ?
Majorana fermion
? ?
approach seems to be behind the others as they haven't even built a
demonstration machine yet, but the technology has the potential of making
far far fewer intrinsic errors than any of the others
?,?
meaning is should be much easier to scale up. If you ever hear that
Microsoft has built a topological quantum computer that can factor the
number 15
?then ?
sell your Bitcoins, hold onto your hat
?,?
and get ready for a wild ride.
? ?
Microsoft's way will turn out to be either impossible or awesome, there is
no in-between. Time will tell.
?

 John K Clark?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 17:44:44 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 10:44:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how hard was it to see this coming?
In-Reply-To: <003201d32cab$a3e0ba00$eba22e00$@att.net>
References: <003201d32cab$a3e0ba00$eba22e00$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNR_c9OX+nuXzx4tXa5iw9_iF2w8CVujs8Robc515RAh0w@mail.gmail.com>

This is barely even news now.  We've known about this for years.

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:16 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/12/voting-machines-can-be-hacked-without-evidence-com/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_campaign=pushnotify&utm_medium=push
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Stunning testimony: Voting machines can be hacked without a trace of
> evidence
>
>
>
>
>
> By Stephen Dinan - The Washington Times - Tuesday, September 12, 2017
>
>
>
> The country?s voting machines are susceptible to hacking, which could be
> done in a way so that it leaves no fingerprints, making it impossible to
> know whether the outcome was changed, computer experts told President
> Trump?s voter integrity commission Tuesday.
>
>
>
> The testimony marked a departure for the commission, which was formed to
> look into fraud and barriers to voting, but which heard that a potentially
> greater threat to confidence in American elections is the chance for enemy
> actors to meddle.
>
>
>
> ?There?s no perfect security; there?s only degrees of insecurity,? said
> Ronald Rivest, a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
>
> He said hackers have myriad ways of attacking voting machines. ?You don?t
> want to rest the election of the president on, ?Maybe the Wi-Fi was turned
> on when it shouldn?t have been.??
>
>
>
> He and two other computer security experts said bar codes on ballots and
> smartphones in voting locations could give hackers a chance to rewrite
> results in ways that couldn?t be traceable, short of sampling of ballots or
> hand recounts ? and those work only in cases where there?s a paper trail.
>
>
>
> Andrew Appel, a professor at Princeton University, said it would be easy to
> write a program that cheats on election results and deletes evidence of the
> hack as soon as the results are reported.
>
>
>
> The analysts didn?t point to any specific election that they knew had been
> compromised, but they said hackers likely would leave fingerprints only if
> they wanted to be spotted and hurt confidence in the U.S. electoral system.
>
>
>
> ?To ignore the fact that the computers are completely hackable and to try to
> run elections, as some states do, where they entirely rely on the word of a
> computer program on who won is entirely irresponsible,? Mr. Appel said.
>
>
>
> The revelations stunned members of the Presidential Advisory Commission on
> Election Integrity, which was in New Hampshire on Tuesday for its second
> meeting.
>
> ?I?m sufficiently shaken,? said Ken Blackwell, a commissioner and former
> secretary of state in Ohio?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Wed Sep 13 20:41:44 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 13:41:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] how hard was it to see this coming?
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNR_c9OX+nuXzx4tXa5iw9_iF2w8CVujs8Robc515RAh0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003201d32cab$a3e0ba00$eba22e00$@att.net>
 <CALAdGNR_c9OX+nuXzx4tXa5iw9_iF2w8CVujs8Robc515RAh0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006f01d32cd0$b6eab090$24c011b0$@att.net>



On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 9:16 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/12/voting-machines-can-be
> -hacked-without-evidence-com/?utm_source=onesignal&utm_campaign=pushno
> tify&utm_medium=push
>
>>... Stunning testimony: Voting machines can be hacked without a trace of 
> evidence



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 10:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] how hard was it to see this coming?

>...This is barely even news now.  We've known about this for years... Adrian


Ja, well this time it didn't matter much: both mainstream candidates were so equally distasteful, few could tell the difference between them.  I think one was a man and the other a woman.  Beyond that minor distinction, they were just a couple more items in the basket of deplorables.  But sooner or later, we are going to have an election between a good guy and a bad guy, the bad guy wins and we will suspect those machines were tampered.  Then there will be big trouble.

Please, let's not rehash tired political discussions.  This thread is about voting machines full stop.  Ja I know my own post was tickling the tail, but it was just a little painful humor please, just humor.  As you already know, I take the notion of electronic voting machines very seriously.  Those things are trouble.

spike






From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 13 22:54:14 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:54:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Homo Deus
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYOOqEH+4vDiswDae6qKh3tadNfF3=YgZJC3c5uk99nkg@mail.gmail.com>

Just finished it. Aside from the odd to ridiculous ways he uses the words
'liberal' and 'religion', it's a fine read.  Hard to put down.  I learned a
lot.

I did not know the story of Aaron Swartz, the hacker for committed suicide
after he realized that he was going to be sent to prison for hacking JSTOR,
a library of many research papers.  He was annoyed that they were charging
people for reading them and wanted all information to be free.

Just how he thought the company was going to stay in business without
making any money is not evident to me.

I was disturbed about this many years ago when the file-sharing thing
started, and my students were downloading music without paying for it.
Movies, etc.  Why people were going to continue to compose music when their
profits disappeared was not considered by them - like Swartz.

Intellectual property is certainly a big issue and will continue to be and
I have no ready answers for it.  Stealing ideas is as old as humans but
somehow we have to reward those who created them first.

bill w
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Sep 14 20:10:10 2017
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 13:10:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Dark mass = matter that is "elsewhere"?
Message-ID: <2b75fbb3dc4b5ed4a4bb14d58f04cc77.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

John Clark wrote:

>We can't forget about particles because that theorem involved temperature
>and you can't have temperature without particles, even light is made pf
>particles. It related
>the temperature of a system with
?>the?
> average
>energy
?> of the particles in it, and classical physics said the kinetic energy of
>a particle is proportional to it's velocity squared but Einstein said that
>is only an approximation that only works at modest speeds.     ?

But all particles are also waves. And the Equipartition Theorem works for
waves as well.

>The only way out of this mess is to remember that the laws of physics are
>not all you need to know, you also need to know the initial conditions, you
>need to  assume that everything started out in a very low entropy state.

Right now my math has me thinking that the universe started out as a
single wavefunction in a single quantum state i.e. the ground state. From
there it transitioned to a higher energy state that consisted of seven
total eigenstates somewhat like atomic orbitals. Six 1st degree
hyperspherical harmonics that are degenerate to one another and the
original 0th degree harmonic.

The beginning eigenstate effectively had an energy and entropy of zero
because both rely on differences between two or more states to have
meaning. A single state with no other states to compare it to has zero
energy and entropy.

You don't get much lower entropy than that.

?>
?>T?
>here was a discontinuity at one end of the time line called the Big Bang
>and, although we don?t yet know enough to be certain, there may not even be
>another end to
?>that?
?>
>line and it may go on endlessly.

I have developed some new field equations that combine gravity and dark
energy into the same scalar potential field. It has many useful properties
one of which is that it allowed me to derive solutions for what I call the
zero net energy universe!

What I did was take my new scalar potential field and integrated it by
mass to find an expression for the potential energy stored in that field.
Then I set the potential energy of the field to exactly cancel the mass
energy of the field. i.e. U(r) = -mc^2.

One of the solutions it yielded was a universe where radius is a function
of the universe's density. It starts out at zero density and radius,
increases in density and radius gradually through a flex point early on.
Then as the density approaches an assymptote at located at twice the
critical density Dc = 3H^2/(8*pi*G), the radius shoots up to infinity!

In other words my model allows a universe to start from nothing and grow
to infinity without adding energy to the system because dark energy, the
energy of space itself, is creating such that the total mass energy and
the energy of expansion itself always balance out to zero.

This means that the universe didn't explode into existence, it crystalized
out of the void and has been steadily growing from there.

Here is the appropriate equation for playing with my model normalized to
make it unitless:

P:=normalized radius = R/Rh  (Radius of universe/Hubble radius).
Q:=normalized density = D/Dc (Density of the universe/Critical density)
Note: Q is omega from the Friedman equations.

P = Sqrt(10/(3*(1-2*(2/Q)^(1/3)+2/Q)))

For reference, Rh = c/H and Dc = 3H^2/(8*pi*G,)with c being speed of
light, G is the gravitational constant, and H is the Hubble constant.

>> Other possibilities spring to mind. Such as
>> ?
>> networks of microscopic wormholes instead of space noodles.These
>> microwormholes could gravitationally connect the six distinct causal
>> ?
>> cells that are separated by the speed of light and closed to the other
>>?
>> fundamental forces.


?>If they're not causally disconnected from ALL forces including gravity
>then you could in theory send a message faster than light, and that means (
>unless you dump Einstein completely and start from square one) you could
>communicate with the past, and that produces logical contradictions.     ?

Communicating using gravity is patently ridiculous. The energy required to
generate gravity waves far exceeds the energy to just visit in person and
deliver the message yourself. Of course if I wanted to send a message into
the past, somehow ringing a black hole like a bell would be how I would do
it.

In any case it seems that gravity/dark energy somehow connect causally
disconnected parts of the universe. Perhaps the discrete causal cells are
connected by a network of quantumly entangled gravitons. Or perhaps on
account of their low energy, gravitons are gigantic and literally are in
multiple causal cells as once by virtue of their enormous wavelengths.

I have been too busy modelling dark energy to nail down a mechanism for
dark matter yet but those are some possibilities.


>In the far far future our universe will consist of the Milky
>Way and nothing else, like what astronomers thought the entire universe
>consisted of before about 1920 when Edwin Hubble discovered that other
>galaxies besides ours
?>existed ?
>in the universe. It turns out astronomers before Hubble wen't wrong just
>premature.

Yes. It seems like a sad fate, matter being diluted out into ever
expanding space like a contaminant rather than being all we ever knew and
loved.

>That 120
?>
>orders of magnitude
>?
>error concerns Dark Energy not Dark Matter
>?
>and I haven't heard you say much about that
?>
>, it's the thing that causes the universe to accelerate. Dark Energy
?>
>amounts
?>
>to a repulsive effect that
?>
>comes from space itself
?> and
>Einstein predicted
?> that could happen.?

When I mathematically modelled dark energy and causal cells, I came up
with some very interesting discoveries. Dark energy and gravity are part
of the same scalar potential field and related vector field. I have
equations for these fields but ascii text is not the best medium to convey
vector field equations.

The point is they are the same kind of force! They are both inertial
forces that produce the same accelerations on a particle regardless of the
mass of that particle based entirely on the position of that particle.
Further both are curl-free although in the case of the dark energy term, I
have not rigorously proved this.

I suspect that space-like located matter might contribute curl to the
vector field giving the appearence of dark matter but I have yet to work
that out yet.

The divergence of the vector field A is given by div(A) = 3H^2-3*G*m/r^3,
where m is some mass at the origin, r is the distance of some point in
space from the origin. H is the Hubble parameter and G is the
gravitational constant.

The same equation can be converted to density to eliminate the point mass,
div(A) = 3H^2-4*pi*G*d with d being the density of the space contained
within a spherical surface of radius r from the origin.

The equation for the scalar potential V(r) at some point at radius r from
the origin on the surface of some sphere with density d is

V(r) =(Z-H^2-4*pi*G*d/3)*r^2

where Z is a constant of integration that I set in order make the maximum
of the curve exactly zero since potential energy is defined to be
negative. Z = 2*(4*pi*G*H*d/3)^(2/3)

Note that this is markedly different than in the Newtonian system where
zero potential is set at infinite radius. In my equations there is a
special radius Ro = (G*m/H^2) where the density d of the sphere enclosing
the mass is d = 3H^2/(4*pi*G) that is of zero potential. The
density-dependent version of the potential also falls to zero at the
origin. So there are no infinite potentials.

The zero potential sphere at Ro has zero divergence along its boundary but
it's neighborhood acts a source of space. If you model the vector field as
fluid, then the surface of the Ro sphere divides space into an outer
region acting as source of the fluid while mass inside the sphere acts as
a sink for the fluid. Inside the sphere at Ro, the divergence is is
negative while on the outside, it is positive.

Incedently, the divergence at the Hubble radius is positive so space is
accumulating faster than it can be drained. Therefore the universe is
expanding.

You can recover the vector field A by applying the gradient operator to
scalar field V in the normal fashion. The density form of the potential
actually makes it easy to convert back and forth from spherical to
cartesian coordinates. Just substitute x^2+y^2+z^2 for r^2.

Stuart LaForge




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 14 23:48:03 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 18:48:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] encryption
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>

?OK, just how paranoid should I be?  Get RedPhone for my android?  Get some
encryption for emails?

Wouldn't that just inform NSA or whoever that I might have good reasons for
not using regular mails and phone calls?

bill w?
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 03:01:30 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 20:01:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTGYv=HAZsf59Qf3ReKSJr8r1Oiu7TKSPQeLrp05cXJ4w@mail.gmail.com>

At this point, it's widespread enough that even the NSA can't afford
to follow up on every such case they see.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, just how paranoid should I be?  Get RedPhone for my android?  Get some
> encryption for emails?
>
> Wouldn't that just inform NSA or whoever that I might have good reasons for
> not using regular mails and phone calls?
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From csaucier at sovacs.com  Fri Sep 15 03:59:39 2017
From: csaucier at sovacs.com (Christian Saucier)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 20:59:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29A9A564-C2BA-4B0D-A5B5-42B5F1965D6A@sovacs.com>

If more of us start using these technologies, then the suspicions will be spread across more people. 

I personally use Signal for texting. It also offers great encrypted audio calls. 

C. 

On September 14, 2017 4:48:03 PM PDT, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>?OK, just how paranoid should I be?  Get RedPhone for my android?  Get
>some
>encryption for emails?
>
>Wouldn't that just inform NSA or whoever that I might have good reasons
>for
>not using regular mails and phone calls?
>
>bill w?
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From pjmanney at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 04:57:35 2017
From: pjmanney at gmail.com (PJ Manney)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 21:57:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
>
> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
> technological resurrection...
>
> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-
> resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6


Nice review, Giulio.

PJ

>
>
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From sjatkins at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 06:02:22 2017
From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 23:02:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>

How is the problem of all the "bits" of you becoming dissolved and
dispersed handled?   Sure we can record life bits and the equivalent from
throughout our life and build some sort of simulacrum of the person after
their death.  But this side of reasonably full mind recording and substrate
independent human being-ness I don't see a good way to resurrection.  Am I
missing something?


On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:57 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
>>
>> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
>> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
>> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
>> technological resurrection...
>>
>> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrect
>> ion-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6
>
>
> Nice review, Giulio.
>
> PJ
>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 02:01:14 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 22:01:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa-cgJ1hZ4gbYboVUEOVdpGwojMnbFscKT7uwTo9srk0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cH1R1_ArooPS23fpqGAc6KdzJeMd3gsmNJsS6WbgYMAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 7:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ?OK, just how paranoid should I be?
>

You shouldn't be paranoid but you should be cautious and take reasonable
precautions.


>   Get RedPhone for my android?
>

I use Signal, which is highly recommended. It's really no harder than any
other messaging app.

  Get some encryption for emails?
>

Don't use gmail for anything you wouldn't want to see on a billboard.

Wouldn't that just inform NSA or whoever that I might have good reasons for
> not using regular mails and phone calls?
>

Sure, that could put you on their radar. But so could this email exchange.
If you use encryption routinely for things that don't absolutely require
privacy--and lots of other people start doing that too, it makes the
spook's jobs a lot harder. I use a VPN on my phone and Chromebook so all of
my data traffic is encrypted. It's easy and inexpensive. I use
privateinternetaccess.com and they have phone apps and browser plug-ins
that are super simple to use.

Also, don't assume that encryption is perfect. A sufficiently motivated
entity can get around it. The goal is to make it harder to see your private
info and easier to see someone else's.

-Dave
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 07:10:19 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 09:10:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfohi70EMxeu7+2us6JbZVL5HN0_BSy6fT0H1vAUJFZ_A@mail.gmail.com>

You are missing a hopeful spirit and some arXiv papers ;-) The author
of this book is not a physicist and doesn't go into details of how our
descendants could copy/teleport detailed information from their past
(our present) to their present (our future). Given that capability,
our descendants could resurrect people by copying them from their past
to their present.. The book just hints at future technologies based on
quantum entanglement and all that.

There are hints at promising directions in current cutting edge
speculative physics. ER=EPR is one: If wormholes connect entangled
particles and entanglement is ubiquitous, then there are wormholes
connecting every pixel of spacetime to every other pixel of spacetime,
and these wormholes can be exploited as data channels between here/now
and there/then (just like in Stephen Baxter's "The Light of Other
Days."

More generally, I find the "emergent physics" approach persuasive: Our
physics of matter and fields in Einstein's spacetime emerges from the
unknown physics of an underlying trans-Planckian substrate, just like
the physics of quasiparticles (e.g. phonons) emerge from the "real"
physics of a material substrate (e.g. a crystal). Space and time
themselves emerge from trans-Planckian physics like an eefctive
spacetime emerges from fluid dynamics in sonic black hole experiments
(fluid analogues of general relativity). The entangled wormhole mouths
in ER=EPR could be intermediate representations of reality, halfway
between our physics and the unknown trans-Planckian physics.

G.

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 8:02 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at gmail.com> wrote:
> How is the problem of all the "bits" of you becoming dissolved and dispersed
> handled?   Sure we can record life bits and the equivalent from throughout
> our life and build some sort of simulacrum of the person after their death.
> But this side of reasonably full mind recording and substrate independent
> human being-ness I don't see a good way to resurrection.  Am I missing
> something?
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:57 PM, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
>>>
>>> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
>>> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
>>> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
>>> technological resurrection...
>>>
>>>
>>> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6
>>
>>
>> Nice review, Giulio.
>>
>> PJ
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep 15 13:06:52 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 06:06:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007a01d32e23$803004c0$80900e40$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 11:02 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones

 

How is the problem of all the "bits" of you becoming dissolved and dispersed handled?   Sure we can record life bits and the equivalent from throughout our life and build some sort of simulacrum of the person after their death.  But this side of reasonably full mind recording and substrate independent human being-ness I don't see a good way to resurrection.  Am I missing something?

 

 

Samantha!

 

We were wondering what the heck had happened to you.  What?s it been, a couple, three years since your last ExI post?  Perhaps I missed previous ones or something.

 

Hope all is well with you.

 

spike

 

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From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep 15 16:31:38 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 09:31:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was:  RE:  encryption
Message-ID: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Subject: Re: [ExI] encryption

 

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 7:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > wrote:

?OK, just how paranoid should I be?

 

>?You shouldn't be paranoid but you should be cautious and take reasonable precautions?  -Dave

 

 

On the subject of information leakage, a recent incident has my wheels spinning.

 

I was randomly chosen to participate in the Nielsen ratings, where the company helps advertisers figure out who is viewing what programs in order to determine the number of eyes and ears they are reaching, decide the value of all that expensive advertising.  I posted to the company rep, explained that I don?t have TV in my house.  She showed up anyway, explaining something I should have known: null data is data.  So I asked: couldn?t they just determine by asking the cable company the percentage of non-subscribers?  Answer: no, because the cable company cannot determine what percentage of non-subscribers are stealing signals.

 

Oh, OK.

 

So she gives me the pitch: you wear a receiver or carry it, then it figures out what station is playing if you are out and about, etc.  If it detects motion and doesn?t get any signal, it knows and reports that.

 

So I asked a few more questions, but one really surprised me.  After going thru their flip charts, she volunteered that about ? or more of those selected get the full in-person house-to-house pitch, then refuse to participate on grounds of privacy, etc, fear that Nielsen could read the email, figure out my political views or sit back there and watch my porno websites at the same time my do, etc.

 

I pointed out that the ISP already can see every site you go to, and the alphabet soup agency in the government already can read your email if they choose to do that.  What difference does it make if some company which doesn?t care what porno you view or what you write can somehow get to it?  She verified what I already thought: Nielsen doesn?t care what you are doing on your computer, your politics or what you write; their client companies already know what web ads you see and what you buy, etc.  Nielsen is all about what TV and radio ads you hear and see.  They don?t care: none of that guides their bottom line.

 

OK so I agreed to be in the ? who hear the pitch and sign on.

 

Then an idea occurred to me: there is major cognitive bias embedded in the data that Nielsen is collecting.  They get boring old geezers like me who write about viewing porno but seldom if ever actually do it (depending on how you classify viewing speeches by Dr. Jill Stein with the sound turned off) so we don?t care if they see.  Furthermore: most of what I write is already in the public domain.  I never post anything I would care if the whole world could see, because it already can.

 

The description in the above paragraph is a subset of people.  By this quarter self-selecting, it isn?t clear what it would do to the data sampling, but I would think it would mess it up somehow.  Participants are no longer randomly chosen.

 

Extend that notion just a bit: it becomes privacy by apathy.  Orwell kinda missed that to some extent.  Even prophets are sometimes imperfect.  Companies don?t care who we are, they only care about our money.  They don?t care what we do, only what we buy.  Nobody cares about how we vote, only who is likely to give a donation.  We are what we own.  In our capitalist world, no one cares about our personal matters, only our personal money.

 

Orwell missed the mark on that.

 

Cool!

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 17:13:41 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 12:13:41 -0500
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption
In-Reply-To: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
References: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>

spike wrote;   Nielsen is all about what TV and radio ads you hear and see.

--
What about those TVs that are connected to the internet so Dish or whoever
can stream movies and what not? Couldn't they record everything you watch.
Not that they would tell you.

For the record, I don't care what they know, but lots of people do.

bill w

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dave Sill
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] encryption
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 7:48 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ?OK, just how paranoid should I be?
>
>
>
> >?You shouldn't be paranoid but you should be cautious and take reasonable
> precautions?  -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> On the subject of information leakage, a recent incident has my wheels
> spinning.
>
>
>
> I was randomly chosen to participate in the Nielsen ratings, where the
> company helps advertisers figure out who is viewing what programs in order
> to determine the number of eyes and ears they are reaching, decide the
> value of all that expensive advertising.  I posted to the company rep,
> explained that I don?t have TV in my house.  She showed up anyway,
> explaining something I should have known: null data is data.  So I asked:
> couldn?t they just determine by asking the cable company the percentage of
> non-subscribers?  Answer: no, because the cable company cannot determine
> what percentage of non-subscribers are stealing signals.
>
>
>
> Oh, OK.
>
>
>
> So she gives me the pitch: you wear a receiver or carry it, then it
> figures out what station is playing if you are out and about, etc.  If it
> detects motion and doesn?t get any signal, it knows and reports that.
>
>
>
> So I asked a few more questions, but one really surprised me.  After going
> thru their flip charts, she volunteered that about ? or more of those
> selected get the full in-person house-to-house pitch, then refuse to
> participate on grounds of privacy, etc, fear that Nielsen could read the
> email, figure out my political views or sit back there and watch my porno
> websites at the same time my do, etc.
>
>
>
> I pointed out that the ISP already can see every site you go to, and the
> alphabet soup agency in the government already can read your email if they
> choose to do that.  What difference does it make if some company which
> doesn?t care what porno you view or what you write can somehow get to it?
> She verified what I already thought: Nielsen doesn?t care what you are
> doing on your computer, your politics or what you write; their client
> companies already know what web ads you see and what you buy, etc.  Nielsen
> is all about what TV and radio ads you hear and see.  They don?t care: none
> of that guides their bottom line.
>
>
>
> OK so I agreed to be in the ? who hear the pitch and sign on.
>
>
>
> Then an idea occurred to me: there is major cognitive bias embedded in the
> data that Nielsen is collecting.  They get boring old geezers like me who
> write about viewing porno but seldom if ever actually do it (depending on
> how you classify viewing speeches by Dr. Jill Stein with the sound turned
> off) so we don?t care if they see.  Furthermore: most of what I write is
> already in the public domain.  I never post anything I would care if the
> whole world could see, because it already can.
>
>
>
> The description in the above paragraph is a subset of people.  By this
> quarter self-selecting, it isn?t clear what it would do to the data
> sampling, but I would think it would mess it up somehow.  Participants are
> no longer randomly chosen.
>
>
>
> Extend that notion just a bit: it becomes privacy by apathy.  Orwell kinda
> missed that to some extent.  Even prophets are sometimes imperfect.
> Companies don?t care who we are, they only care about our money.  They
> don?t care what we do, only what we buy.  Nobody cares about how we vote,
> only who is likely to give a donation.  We are what we own.  In our
> capitalist world, no one cares about our personal matters, only our
> personal money.
>
>
>
> Orwell missed the mark on that.
>
>
>
> Cool!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 13:42:45 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:42:45 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <007a01d32e23$803004c0$80900e40$@att.net>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
 <007a01d32e23$803004c0$80900e40$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfr=vMvF8xsD2pwW3+ncjjzw-qV6ps6sGLYuqoBAi9Ryg@mail.gmail.com>

She likes to argue with me on this point ;-) ;-)

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 3:06 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
> Of Samantha Atkins
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 11:02 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan
> Jones
>
>
>
> How is the problem of all the "bits" of you becoming dissolved and dispersed
> handled?   Sure we can record life bits and the equivalent from throughout
> our life and build some sort of simulacrum of the person after their death.
> But this side of reasonably full mind recording and substrate independent
> human being-ness I don't see a good way to resurrection.  Am I missing
> something?
>
>
>
>
>
> Samantha!
>
>
>
> We were wondering what the heck had happened to you.  What?s it been, a
> couple, three years since your last ExI post?  Perhaps I missed previous
> ones or something.
>
>
>
> Hope all is well with you.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep 15 17:59:03 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 10:59:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <019f01d32e4c$51c8c260$f55a4720$@att.net>

 

 

>? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption

 

spike wrote;   Nielsen is all about what TV and radio ads you hear and see. 

 

--

>?What about those TVs that are connected to the internet so Dish or whoever can stream movies and what not? Couldn't they record everything you watch. Not that they would tell you.

 

>?For the record, I don't care what they know, but lots of people do.  

 

bill w

 

 

I may have misunderstood it, and if so do correct me please: I inferred that they can use these devices to figure out you are streaming movies but not which movies, for they don?t care about that.  Their clients buy that info from the cable company, but those streaming movies don?t have ads anyway (or do they?  (I am sooo not-hip on these matters.))

 

BillW, your last sentence is a good point: you don?t care what they know, and I don?t, so we are likely to be the kinds of guys who would sign up to be in the ? (she said slightly less than a quarter) who would agree to do having the device, knowing that there is a possibility they could have slipped a device inside the device which would pick up our LAN signals.  I don?t care: the ISP already knows what I search and they don?t blackmail me, which might be understandable if you saw my search history.  Granted all those Jill Stein video searches would be a bit embarraskin.  But I can deal with it.

 

The Nielsen group is self-selected and is non-representative: perhaps we are generally Squaresville L7 types.

 

Or perhaps I am misreading the whole thing: there are people who do edgy stuff and intentionally post it all on FaceBook.  So they would be beyond open: they would make an effort to broadcast to the public their private moments?

 

spike

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 17:49:44 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:49:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eBY7oYQZ7kB9Si7n9ELdvhne_pF27eKEsO-Mg=oedqjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 1:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> What about those TVs that are connected to the internet so Dish or whoever
> can stream movies and what not? Couldn't they record everything you watch.
> Not that they would tell you.
>

They can, and do, keep track of what you watch. But they don't share those
numbers freely.

-Dave
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 18:23:18 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 11:23:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption
In-Reply-To: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
References: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSgY9SNeLdMz=t8FaNyCFa-K55fZd07ZMemvpXoCt1x5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:31 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> OK so I agreed to be in the ? who hear the pitch and sign on.

So, if there are series or movies we want to see more of, we should
try to get you to watch them now?



From spike66 at att.net  Fri Sep 15 18:14:31 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 11:14:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] goodbye cassini
Message-ID: <000b01d32e4e$7b1002d0$71300870$@att.net>

 

 

WOWsers, did you see these photos?  These are mind blowers:

 

https://www.livescience.com/60404-cassini-mission-best-photos-of-saturn.html
?utm_source=notification

 

What a time to be alive, ja?

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Sep 15 19:37:15 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 15:37:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Dark mass = matter that is "elsewhere"?
In-Reply-To: <2b75fbb3dc4b5ed4a4bb14d58f04cc77.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <2b75fbb3dc4b5ed4a4bb14d58f04cc77.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Tc=Td_Z_1gdwen3Be=Rfk6-uZXgtREk7QqefCwJpLnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
    ?

> ?> ?
> all particles are also waves. And the Equipartition Theorem works for
> ? ?
> waves as well.
>

Actually  the Equipartition Theorem failed to predict how blackbody
radiation works, it said  anything above absolute zero should radiate an
infinite amount of energy and obviously that's not correct, in fact it was
this very failure that forced Max Planck to dream up quantum theory.


> ?> ?
> The beginning eigenstate effectively had an energy and entropy of zero
> ? ?
> because both rely on differences between two or more states to have
> ? ?
> meaning.
> ? ?
> A single state with no other states to compare it to has zero
> ? ?
> energy and entropy.


I
? would?
say in that situation energy and entropy would be undefined not zero.
? ?
And we've known for 90 years that at the very largest scale, the
cosmological scale, if Spacetime is curved
? ?
then
? ?
energy is not conserved
? ?
under
? ?
General
? ?
Relativity. This is because Noether's Theorem
? ?
tells us that the conservation of energy is equivalent to time
? ?
translation invariance, that is to say the fundamental laws that determine
how things move do not change with time; but if
? ?
Spacetime is curved then they do change, so energy is not
? ?
conserved. For example consider all the photons in interstellar space, as
space expands with time the number of photons remains the same but each
individual photon is redshifted and
? ?
thus
? ?
has less energy than it did before.
? ?
Much more recently physicists discovered
? ?
it works the opposite way for Dark Energy because the vacuum energy
? ?
of
? ?
empty space
? ?
remains the same but the total amount of empty space increases so the total
amount of energy in the
? ?
universe increases too. However nobody
? ?
needed to rewrite physics textbooks 90 years ago because energy is conserved
? ?
locally
? ?
if Spacetime is flat as it is in Newtonian physics.

?And this has been confirmed experimentally,  the percentage ?of
the various elements that comprise ordinary matter depends on how fast the
universe was expanding during the first 3 minutes after the Big Bang, and
that depends on the changing radiation energy density of the universe. The
calculated percentage of elements and the observed values are almost
identical.


> ?> ?
> One of the solutions it yielded was a universe where radius is a function
> ? ?
> of the universe's density. It starts out at zero density and radius,
> ? ?
> increases in density and radius gradually through a flex point early on.
> ? ?
> Then as the density approaches an assymptote at located at twice the
> ? ?
> critical density Dc = 3H^2/(8*pi*G), the radius shoots up to infinity!
>

I'm very suspicious of that H term.  It may be called "The Hubble constant
?
" but it's not constant, the name is a historical accident coined at a time
when everybody thought  the rate of expansion has never changed, or at
least not changed by much. But we now know
? ?
the rate of expansion of the universe has never been
? ?
even close to being
??
constant, very early the expansion rate was enormous then it slowed down by
a lot and continued to slow down for about 8 billion years, and then
? ?
about 6 billion years ago it started accelerating again. Right now we say
the Hubble
? ?
"constant"
? ?
is 160 km/sec per million-light-year
?s?
,
? ?
but that figure will change, by how much nobody is quite sure.

?> ?
> Communicating using gravity is patently ridiculous.


?The sun communicates with the Earth with gravity telling it to keep moving
in an elliptical path, but the sun as it was 8 minutes ago or less is not
telling the Earth anything because that region of Spacetime is not causally
connected to anything on the Earth as it is right now, but it will be in 8
minutes.



> ?> ?
> The energy required to
> ? ?
> generate gravity waves far exceeds the energy to just visit in person and
> ? ?
> deliver the message yourself. Of course if I wanted to send a message into
> ? ?
> the past, somehow ringing a black hole like a bell would be how I would do
> ? ?
> it.
>

The energy required is not the issue, ?
?gravity
 waves don't travel faster than light, and sending messages into the past
creates logical contradictions.? Even
quantum
?
entanglement
? won't let you communicate faster than light. ?

?> ?
> In any case it seems that gravity/dark energy somehow connect causally
> disconnected parts of the universe.


?If those regions of Spacetime are causally connected then something must
travel ?faster than light, then you can use that something to send messages
into the past, and they you're in big BIG logical trouble.


>
?> ?
> When I mathematically modelled dark energy and causal cells, I came up
> ? ?
> with some very interesting discoveries. Dark energy and gravity are part
> ? ?
> of the same scalar potential field and related vector field. I have
> ? ?
> equations for these fields but ascii text is not the best medium to convey
> ? ?
> vector field equations.The point is they are the same kind of force!


?Gravity is attractive, Dark Energy is repulsive. Gravity gets weaker as
the universe expands and the density of matter becomes less , but unlike
gravity Dark Energy does not originate from matter but seems to be a
property of space itself, so it never gets diluted regardless of how empty
the universe gets.    ?

 John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Sat Sep 16 05:27:43 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 22:27:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star again
Message-ID: <006e01d32eac$86a6b040$93f410c0$@att.net>

 

 

Those V-notch curves are just crazy.  Nothing I can even imagine does that
to a star's brightness.

 

 

 



 

Does aaaaanybody have any ideas?

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 06:10:13 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 23:10:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star again
In-Reply-To: <006e01d32eac$86a6b040$93f410c0$@att.net>
References: <006e01d32eac$86a6b040$93f410c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <27AB4777-B67B-4EDC-9917-FBEE486819D8@gmail.com>

Yes, it's a [DELETED] as anyone can see.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

> On Sep 15, 2017, at 10:27 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> Those V-notch curves are just crazy.  Nothing I can even imagine does that to a star?s brightness.
>  
>  
>  
> <image001.jpg>
>  
> Does aaaaanybody have any ideas?
>  
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Sep 16 14:59:29 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2017 10:59:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star again
In-Reply-To: <006e01d32eac$86a6b040$93f410c0$@att.net>
References: <006e01d32eac$86a6b040$93f410c0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0yLhDNymnCowtNhtKu6GxDoGvd2tZ9W0c7ACQ2NXqqQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Sep 16, 2017 at 1:27 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> Those V-notch curves are just crazy.  Nothing I can even imagine does that
> to a star?s brightness.
>
>
How about
? ?
a screen of
? ?
microscopic dust particles
?? That's what several astronomers (including
Tabetha Boyajian
? after whom Tabby's? Star is named) just wrote in a peer reviewed
article in ?"
Astrophysical Journal
?":

?https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.07556.pdf


?They closely examined the rate of dimming of the ultraviolet light and the
infrared light and they found the rate of dimming between the two was
significantly different; and a Dyson Sphere, completed or not, wouldn't do
that. The only thing that would scatter light like that is lots and lots of
microscopic dust.  Yes it's odd that a mature star like Tabby would have
such a thick cloud of dust in orbit around it and nobody is quite sure why
it's there, but whatever caused the dust it sure doesn't look like aliens
are responsible for the dimming.

 John K Clark
?
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep 18 14:39:22 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:39:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
Message-ID: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>

 

Quiet couple days, ja?

 

spike

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 15:20:45 2017
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:20:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>
References: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFvfrovfkqychPZhQam8n2S2f_QJsK6Gbtn1VM5Aqp3BQ@mail.gmail.com>

Gotta jump start the list with some controversial material.

So, I pose to you, good people of ExI, a conundrum:

IF Searle's Chinese room shoots down a drone piloted by a pig-human chimera
with a hacked smart gun they bought through an unregulated free market on
Facebook from a communist Millennial recently thawed from cryogenic
sleep...does the room understand Hillary Clinton's emails?
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 15:58:50 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 10:58:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>
References: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ+6jhG12Yt+VyxmRQGLbPppFApz7UOB7jwwxcANeT+oQ@mail.gmail.com>

I see. You are one those who get rid of 'of'.   My mother is turning over
in her grave (English teacher).

What's so wrong or lengthy about 'couple of days'?

bill w

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
> Quiet couple days, ja?
>
>
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep 18 16:54:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:54:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] french and english are messed up, was:  RE:  test
Message-ID: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>

 

 

To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] test

 

Quiet couple days, ja?

 spike

 

>?I see. You are one those who get rid of 'of'.   My mother is turning over in her grave (English teacher). 

 

>?What's so wrong or lengthy about 'couple of days'?

 

bill w

 

 

 

Nah is was a typo BillW.  I shoulda written ??coupla days...?

 

When writing informally, it is OK to write how you speak.  This explains how French got all messed up: they didn?t go along with that obvious expediency.  Now the French keep on spelling long after they are finished speaking.  Look at their crazy system.  Please any French-speakers here, can you kindly explain how the hell that -aux is pronounced o?  Why not just o?  Are not you inviting ridicule by the Brits, who intentionally murder the pronunciation to match the murderous spelling?  Ja, that?s what I thot too.  Now of course, the English scholars have witnessed with envy how the French messed up their language and long to do likewise.

 

But think about formality in writing.  A PhD thesis is letter-perfect but this stands to reason: it will be read by a dozen people henceforth and forever.  The writing here is informal, so we have open standards.  It will only be read by hundreds now, and thousands in the future, with the soft copy archives so that it will eventually be part of the body of ?knowledge? used to train future AI.  You know they will want to snoop around in the ExI archives hoping to find the deepest roots of their family tree, that kinda thing, ja?  They will dig around in ExI, deciding who they want to thaw.

 

Hey AI, what an interesting thot-provoking chap I was, oui?

 

spike

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 17:55:59 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 12:55:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] french and english are messed up, was: RE: test
In-Reply-To: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>
References: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaODBTkoNCpxA5k7mGALzMFRBYWf+6W3HbGqVaTNYTq3Q@mail.gmail.com>

(Well, others are writing 'couple days' in some of my fiction.)

French is crazy:  they think genre is one syllable.  Spelling as crazy as
ours.  Given that the French STILL  think their language ought to be the
lingua franca, (English is the lingua franca - weird) do you think they
will accept modernisms?  Of spelling?  Or words?  Ha.  I do read that
'weekend' has entered French, to the horror of the academics and
conservatives.

I took a Spanish dictionary to Costa Rica to a language academy - it was
dated around 1900.  I used words they had never heard of.  All languages
change.  But the adults never like what the kids are doing to it.  Will the
kids start speaking that way?  Instead of laughing, they'll say  'LOL  LOL
 LOL"

That reminds me of LOLS in NAD, which stands for Little Old Ladies in No
Apparent Distress - by a medical intern - ever read that?  A GOMER is "Get
Out of My Emergency Room''. GOMERS go to ground - i.e. fall off the bed.
And more.

It goes along with my thesis that everyone is pulling down the shades and
hoping the world won't change their tribe's way of life:  language, dress,
dancing, politics, eating (though the Brits though foreign invasions via
 foreign food was great).

I only studied Spanish aside from English.  It's a very logical language,
both in pronunciation and spelling.  Ditto Italiano, I think.  Hear it or
see it and you can pronounce it.  Pronounce it and you can spell it.  Also,
both are beautiful to hear, esp. Italian.

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 11:54 AM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] test
>
>
>
> Quiet couple days, ja?
>
>  spike
>
>
>
> >?I see. You are one those who get rid of 'of'.   My mother is turning
> over in her grave (English teacher).
>
>
>
> >?What's so wrong or lengthy about 'couple of days'?
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nah is was a typo BillW.  I shoulda written ??coupla days...?
>
>
>
> When writing informally, it is OK to write how you speak.  This explains
> how French got all messed up: they didn?t go along with that obvious
> expediency.  Now the French keep on spelling long after they are finished
> speaking.  Look at their crazy system.  Please any French-speakers here,
> can you kindly explain how the hell that -aux is pronounced o?  Why not
> just o?  Are not you inviting ridicule by the Brits, who intentionally
> murder the pronunciation to match the murderous spelling?  Ja, that?s what
> I thot too.  Now of course, the English scholars have witnessed with envy
> how the French messed up their language and long to do likewise.
>
>
>
> But think about formality in writing.  A PhD thesis is letter-perfect but
> this stands to reason: it will be read by a dozen people henceforth and
> forever.  The writing here is informal, so we have open standards.  It will
> only be read by hundreds now, and thousands in the future, with the soft
> copy archives so that it will eventually be part of the body of ?knowledge?
> used to train future AI.  You know they will want to snoop around in the
> ExI archives hoping to find the deepest roots of their family tree, that
> kinda thing, ja?  They will dig around in ExI, deciding who they want to
> thaw.
>
>
>
> Hey AI, what an interesting thot-provoking chap I was, oui?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Sep 18 17:58:45 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2017 10:58:45 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFvfrovfkqychPZhQam8n2S2f_QJsK6Gbtn1VM5Aqp3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <003301d3308b$ebf47410$c3dd5c30$@att.net>
 <CAKrqSyFvfrovfkqychPZhQam8n2S2f_QJsK6Gbtn1VM5Aqp3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRVhAtp-3gUM4HD451TXnV6eQKtyE3Xj4hqW6qP=ioiPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:20 AM, Will Steinberg
<steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
> IF Searle's Chinese room shoots down a drone piloted by a pig-human chimera
> with a hacked smart gun they bought through an unregulated free market on
> Facebook from a communist Millennial recently thawed from cryogenic
> sleep...does the room understand Hillary Clinton's emails?

Do ordinary English speakers understand said emails?


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 19 16:39:02 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2017 11:39:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] health care comparisons world wide
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbmCQzJigGPJ-DBFKkx-dZ=zpXHu-3wzagGkcAHfZGQ6Q@mail.gmail.com>

Several countries are compared each other and to the US.  Interesting

bill w
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Sep 15 17:47:43 2017
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2017 13:47:43 -0400
Subject: [ExI] orwell misses one, was: RE: encryption
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011801d32e40$1bc8de90$535a9bb0$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEZi3QhbPEN-LVgTHY+OvncNOFs5AvWh9y+4N39bRWR-Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1ea78bb256c45261040431d1980950f5.squirrel@www.main.nc.us>



> For the record, I don't care what they know, but lots of
> people do.
>
> bill w

It's not so much caring what they know - it's the concern
of where that information will end up, when will it be
somehow twisted and used against the folks they're
watching.

Regards,
MB




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 12:47:11 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:47:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] health care comparisons world wide
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbmCQzJigGPJ-DBFKkx-dZ=zpXHu-3wzagGkcAHfZGQ6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbmCQzJigGPJ-DBFKkx-dZ=zpXHu-3wzagGkcAHfZGQ6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYcZWf5X0Box3DCb8JOzovFcUwtMMA3Hw_1wvs0jz5NAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry about the 'missing link'.  bill w

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/
best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=
email&utm_campaign=pockethits

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Several countries are compared each other and to the US.  Interesting
>
> bill w
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 20:12:02 2017
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:12:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star again
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5fK-O=KVuFGASDG6Bxw1yW6zJ48OantiHum1Si0=nFRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 7:52 AM,  John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> ?They closely examined the rate of dimming of the ultraviolet light and the
> infrared light and they found the rate of dimming between the two was
> significantly different; and a Dyson Sphere, completed or not, wouldn't do
> that. The only thing that would scatter light like that is lots and lots of
> microscopic dust.  Yes it's odd that a mature star like Tabby would have
> such a thick cloud of dust in orbit around it and nobody is quite sure why
> it's there, but whatever caused the dust it sure doesn't look like aliens
> are responsible for the dimming.

Surely I am not the only person who remembers the early 90s
discussions.  They made it to Wikipedia and are a major element in
Charles Stross's story _Accelerando_.

Matrioshka brain - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrioshka_brain
A matrioshka brain is a hypothetical megastructure proposed by Robert
Bradbury, based on the Dyson sphere, of immense computational
capacity. It is an example of a Class B stellar engine, employing the
entire energy output of a star to drive computer systems. This concept
derives its name from Russian Matrioshka dolls. ... Astroengineering ?
Computronium ? Megascale engineering ? Strong AI ...

I never thought a lot of the idea for heat sink and communication
delay reasons, but it is not out of the question.

Just because it looks like dust does not rule it out as artificial.

Keith



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Sep 20 20:53:11 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:53:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] What do we need to know to mine an asteroid? (Amara's getting
	some press)
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQaZOtTLJysdceVEKC96hb5TTUW9d8wLpc3Gcu87y7t2A@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170919092612.htm


From csaucier at sovacs.com  Thu Sep 21 02:35:16 2017
From: csaucier at sovacs.com (Christian Saucier)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 19:35:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <040C229D-56F8-45E2-A0C3-1EAB11CAE154@sovacs.com>

Just bought it on Amazon.  Looking forward to read it. 

C. 

On September 14, 2017 9:57:35 PM PDT, PJ Manney <pjmanney at gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 9:55 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
>>
>> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
>> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
>> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
>> technological resurrection...
>>
>> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-
>> resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6
>
>
>Nice review, Giulio.
>
>PJ
>
>>
>>
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From bmd54321 at gmail.com  Thu Sep 21 02:59:47 2017
From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:59:47 -0400
Subject: [ExI] french and english are messed up, was: RE: test
In-Reply-To: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>
References: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>
Message-ID: <64baf55a-5088-cd5d-0193-04a1f655e56c@gmail.com>


> Quiet couple days, ja?
> 
>  ?spike


I think Spike was actually being advanced, writing in a future dialect 
of English. Languages logically streamline themselves over time. We 
don't use "of" with "few", for ex. (in the sense of: "a few of days"), 
so to make the usage of "couple" line up with the usage of "few", we're 
moving towards "a couple days". Spike is just getting there ahead of 
most of us.

Brian


From spike66 at att.net  Thu Sep 21 05:41:29 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2017 22:41:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] french and english are messed up, was: RE: test
In-Reply-To: <64baf55a-5088-cd5d-0193-04a1f655e56c@gmail.com>
References: <00fe01d3309e$bbb873b0$33295b10$@att.net>
 <64baf55a-5088-cd5d-0193-04a1f655e56c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002e01d3329c$46d6b700$d4842500$@att.net>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brian Manning Delaney
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 8:00 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] french and english are messed up, was: RE: test


> Quiet couple days, ja?
> 
>   spike


I think Spike was actually being advanced, writing in a future dialect of English. Languages logically streamline themselves over time. We don't use "of" with "few", for ex. (in the sense of: "a few of days"), so to make the usage of "couple" line up with the usage of "few", we're moving towards "a couple days". Spike is just getting there ahead of most of us.

Brian
_______________________________________________


Brian you are too kind, sir.  

I have seen the future, but I am going to wait until tomorrow to write about it.  I am nearly falling asleep at the keyboard.

spike




From spike66 at att.net  Thu Sep 21 18:21:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 11:21:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] i have seen the future: was RE: french and english are messed
	up, was: RE: test
Message-ID: <00ef01d33306$62841500$278c3f00$@att.net>



>>...I think Spike was actually being advanced...
Brian
_______________________________________________


>...Brian you are too kind, sir.  

>...I have seen the future, but I am going to wait until tomorrow to write
about it.  I am nearly falling asleep at the keyboard.

spike


_______________________________________________

I was walking near my house along Coyote Creek where there was a farm until
recently.  They were building an enormous tilt-up, dimensions about 100
meters by about 150 meters, height about 15 meters.  I noticed they were
cast wall with no windows and few doors and wondered why they would need
such an enormous enclosed volume.  Then it occurred to me what I think they
are building there.

Those of us who live in the burbs have seen the rise of Amazon Prime same
day delivery.  They hire Uber drivers and such.  Sometimes you can buy stuff
and have it there within two or three hours.  It occurred to me as I looked
at these buildings that they are warehouses for either Amazon or someone who
has the same idea: have it to where all manner of merchandise is on the
15-meter-height multi-level shelves, you order it, robot plucks it down,
puts it in a self-driving car, motors it out to your house within an hour,
faster than you can get in your own Detroit and go find the item at a big
box store.

This will shut down traditional retailing.  Evidence: imagine yourself
running a retailing business.  Estimate the cost of employees alone for a
first cut, and make the front door your control surface, kinda like we
engineers think of a plenum chamber with everything going thru a single
valve.  Your total gross income is the sticker price on every item that goes
that door, your net sales the markup on those items going out.  OK to
estimate net profit, you need to subtract your employee cost, ja?

OK good, now we can estimate that by counting the employees we see in there
and estimating they get about what, 15 bucks an hour?  NO.  Because all you
see are the young and pretties when you go in a store.  They are the ones
you want out front encouraging sales and attracting people who are attracted
to the young and pretties.  We old and uglies work in the back, stocking,
ordering, managing, accounting, engineering, yakkity yakking and bla
bla-ing, and we generally make more than those up front, but even the young
and pretties cost you way more than 15 bucks an hour because of all the
costs associated with keeping them comfortable and happy.  A pretty good
estimate of employee cost is triple their hourly (for a first cut estimate.)

Now compare to that markup times the flux of merchandise leaving your
control surface, your d(merchandise)/dt, and realize if you don't see a
steady ant-line march of cheapy Chinese manufactured goods streaming out
your front door, you are on your way out of business.  Ja?

OK now, consider the alternative.

Enormous warehouses filled floor to high ceiling with shelves stocked with
cheapy Chinese manufactured goods, being continually stocked by 18-wheelers
driving themselves, robots unloading and stocking shelves, fetching down
goods as they are ordered, loading into self-driving cars, few employees
(none of whom need to be young and pretty) involved in the process at all.

The reason this all occurred to me is the location of this warehouse
project.  Goods can flow out of there 24/7 without ever touching a freeway.
It is close to the intersection of California's State Road 237 and
Interstates 680 and 880 (the development is called McCarthy Ranch.)  They
could deliver goods to half a million consumers all while staying
exclusively on surface streets, which means speeds could be restricted to 10
meters per second, so you have a stopping distance of about 6 meters in less
than a second on clean pavement, and the controls engineering is simple for
those speeds.  Your delivery carts could use simple mass-produced lead acid
batteries, for their advantages for that purpose are notable and their
disadvantages tolerable: great for initial cost, for high duty cycle and
life, for safety and reliability, for fast recharge rates.  The
disadvantages: heavy (doesn't matter much if you have regenerative braking
and low acceleration) short range (everything would be shorty 50 km round
trips maximum, half hour charge cycle, ready to roll again) factories
already in place for mass production, mature technology.

I think we are seeing the future of retailing under construction at McCarthy
Ranch in San Jose.

spike

 



From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Sep 21 19:22:21 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2017 15:22:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] tabby's star again
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5fK-O=KVuFGASDG6Bxw1yW6zJ48OantiHum1Si0=nFRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5fK-O=KVuFGASDG6Bxw1yW6zJ48OantiHum1Si0=nFRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3=mPvEPZOuwNf5ADvCa1tgJ+cJvrH=z9ZumQe_5MfcxA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> A matrioshka brain is a hypothetical megastructure proposed by Robert
> ? ?
> Bradbury, based on the Dyson sphere, of immense computational
> ? ?
> capacity.
> ?  [...] ?
> Just because it looks like dust does not rule it out as artificial.


It's easy to understand why the
? ?
rate of dimming between infrared and ultraviolet light would be different
if it were cause by dust, but it's much more difficult to understand how a
Dyson sphere would
? do that?
. If a simple explanation can explain something I see no reason for a
exotic one. I see tracks in the snow near a horse farm made by a large 4
legged animal and conclude they were made by a horse.  I could be wrong
they might have been made by a zebra, but I'm probably not wrong.

  John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 18:12:26 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 13:12:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] is this neat or what?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYAwdnpR1vxabEgBbhmfV6GTq0qw1gZYRV5ykujQrT74g@mail.gmail.com>

https://aeon.co/ideas/this-ancient-mnemonic-technique-builds-a-palace-of-memory?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7eb25928a0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_09_19&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-7eb25928a0-68993993

bill w  (a common memory technique is ancient)
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 18:12:26 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 13:12:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] is this neat or what?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYAwdnpR1vxabEgBbhmfV6GTq0qw1gZYRV5ykujQrT74g@mail.gmail.com>

https://aeon.co/ideas/this-ancient-mnemonic-technique-builds-a-palace-of-memory?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7eb25928a0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_09_19&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-7eb25928a0-68993993

bill w  (a common memory technique is ancient)
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From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Sep 22 21:11:23 2017
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 17:11:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] is this neat or what?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYAwdnpR1vxabEgBbhmfV6GTq0qw1gZYRV5ykujQrT74g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYAwdnpR1vxabEgBbhmfV6GTq0qw1gZYRV5ykujQrT74g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH945-1Mzw=8p2pOtO7BbqP5RHRnLs+yeTPLk3RG5ntkDg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article, thanks!  Moonwalking with Einstein is a pretty
interesting book on one guy's modern attempt to use the more traditional
Greek/Roman memory palace technique:

https://www.amazon.com/Moonwalking-Einstein-Science-Remembering-Everything-ebook/dp/B004H4XI5O/

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 2:12 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> https://aeon.co/ideas/this-ancient-mnemonic-technique-
> builds-a-palace-of-memory?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_
> campaign=7eb25928a0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_09_19&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_
> 411a82e59d-7eb25928a0-68993993
>
> bill w  (a common memory technique is ancient)
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 03:26:59 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 05:26:59 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Free Society Foundation Plans To Purchase Sovereignty for
	Libertarian Nation
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydwzfYsOHAJ0AsMm8KwcUPdxvZieBCqvn1-Z4Eb8ZbQSA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/freesocietycom-to-form-the-worlds-first-libertarian-country-646060023.html

https://www.freesociety.com/

I really like the Free Society Foundation idea. Purchasing sovereign
nation status for a piece of land, from the government that currently
owns the land, seems to me a much more realistic option than
seasteading, abandoned platforms, and unclaimed land (e.g. Liberland).
It will be very interested to watch this project as it unfolds.


From sjatkins at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 02:10:48 2017
From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2017 19:10:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyfohi70EMxeu7+2us6JbZVL5HN0_BSy6fT0H1vAUJFZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfohi70EMxeu7+2us6JbZVL5HN0_BSy6fT0H1vAUJFZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C9A3B77F-401F-4916-B770-EB405436574F@gmail.com>

I think you know me to be of a very hopeful spirit.  But a hopeful spirit isn?t unfortunately enough to make the hope realizable.  More embedded.


> On Sep 15, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You are missing a hopeful spirit and some arXiv papers ;-) The author
> of this book is not a physicist and doesn't go into details of how our
> descendants could copy/teleport detailed information from their past
> (our present) to their present (our future). Given that capability,
> our descendants could resurrect people by copying them from their past
> to their present.. The book just hints at future technologies based on
> quantum entanglement and all that.

Please point to any good science papers on how one may reach back into the past, in this case into the past brain state of a then living person, and copy information to one?s own time long after that person is deceased.  I don?t know of anything in physics that would allow such a thing.   Yeah, you can indeed do amassing things if that is possible.   But what would lead us to think that it is?

> 
> There are hints at promising directions in current cutting edge
> speculative physics. ER=EPR is one: If wormholes connect entangled
> particles and entanglement is ubiquitous, then there are wormholes
> connecting every pixel of spacetime to every other pixel of spacetime,
> and these wormholes can be exploited as data channels between here/now
> and there/then (just like in Stephen Baxter's "The Light of Other
> Days.?

Wormholes won?t cut it.  And no reputable astrophysicists claims there are wormholes connecting every pixel (?) of spacetime to ever other part.  Again please point to the papers if there is reputable science here. 


> 
> More generally, I find the "emergent physics" approach persuasive: Our
> physics of matter and fields in Einstein's spacetime emerges from the
> unknown physics of an underlying trans-Planckian substrate, just like
> the physics of quasiparticles (e.g. phonons) emerge from the "real"
> physics of a material substrate (e.g. a crystal). Space and time
> themselves emerge from trans-Planckian physics like an eefctive
> spacetime emerges from fluid dynamics in sonic black hole experiments
> (fluid analogues of general relativity). The entangled wormhole mouths
> in ER=EPR could be intermediate representations of reality, halfway
> between our physics and the unknown trans-Planckian physics.


That is like zero hard science speculation.  I hope there is better out there.

- samantha




From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 08:15:28 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:15:28 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydG+qQwsfBM-w7M_Q1PkhXy3pbkFC=qFe6Wp1+1e64knQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfohi70EMxeu7+2us6JbZVL5HN0_BSy6fT0H1vAUJFZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <C9A3B77F-401F-4916-B770-EB405436574F@gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJydG+qQwsfBM-w7M_Q1PkhXy3pbkFC=qFe6Wp1+1e64knQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyfnNb0EcKfUQyObwqOL1KgwvQdj2Y-eLCaASuwsLkJX_A@mail.gmail.com>

Just one paper to begin with (I am writing down a related
interpretation, coming soon):
https://arxiv.org/abs/1708.03040

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Come on, that's the game liberals play, I thought I could expect
> better from you. If I give you an arXiv paper, you'll ask for a paper
> on a peer reviewed journal. If I give you a paper on a peer reviewed
> journal, you'll say that the author is unknown. If the author is
> known, you'll say that he is not a specialist. If he is, you'll find
> other specialists that criticize the paper. If the author is a Nobel
> laureate, you'll say that he is blinded by religion. Come ooon !
>
> Said that, there are many papers out there, much better than my
> half-baked conceptual speculations. I just created a subreddit to
> assemble scientific references, and will start filling it soon.
> Contributors welcome:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/irrationalmechanics/
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:10 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think you know me to be of a very hopeful spirit.  But a hopeful spirit isn?t unfortunately enough to make the hope realizable.  More embedded.
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> You are missing a hopeful spirit and some arXiv papers ;-) The author
>>> of this book is not a physicist and doesn't go into details of how our
>>> descendants could copy/teleport detailed information from their past
>>> (our present) to their present (our future). Given that capability,
>>> our descendants could resurrect people by copying them from their past
>>> to their present.. The book just hints at future technologies based on
>>> quantum entanglement and all that.
>>
>> Please point to any good science papers on how one may reach back into the past, in this case into the past brain state of a then living person, and copy information to one?s own time long after that person is deceased.  I don?t know of anything in physics that would allow such a thing.   Yeah, you can indeed do amassing things if that is possible.   But what would lead us to think that it is?
>>
>>>
>>> There are hints at promising directions in current cutting edge
>>> speculative physics. ER=EPR is one: If wormholes connect entangled
>>> particles and entanglement is ubiquitous, then there are wormholes
>>> connecting every pixel of spacetime to every other pixel of spacetime,
>>> and these wormholes can be exploited as data channels between here/now
>>> and there/then (just like in Stephen Baxter's "The Light of Other
>>> Days.?
>>
>> Wormholes won?t cut it.  And no reputable astrophysicists claims there are wormholes connecting every pixel (?) of spacetime to ever other part.  Again please point to the papers if there is reputable science here.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> More generally, I find the "emergent physics" approach persuasive: Our
>>> physics of matter and fields in Einstein's spacetime emerges from the
>>> unknown physics of an underlying trans-Planckian substrate, just like
>>> the physics of quasiparticles (e.g. phonons) emerge from the "real"
>>> physics of a material substrate (e.g. a crystal). Space and time
>>> themselves emerge from trans-Planckian physics like an eefctive
>>> spacetime emerges from fluid dynamics in sonic black hole experiments
>>> (fluid analogues of general relativity). The entangled wormhole mouths
>>> in ER=EPR could be intermediate representations of reality, halfway
>>> between our physics and the unknown trans-Planckian physics.
>>
>>
>> That is like zero hard science speculation.  I hope there is better out there.
>>
>> - samantha
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 07:44:17 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 00:44:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Free Society Foundation Plans To Purchase Sovereignty for
 Libertarian Nation
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJydwzfYsOHAJ0AsMm8KwcUPdxvZieBCqvn1-Z4Eb8ZbQSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydwzfYsOHAJ0AsMm8KwcUPdxvZieBCqvn1-Z4Eb8ZbQSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSsLy2LnMV8GWnpts5LzxngfikDeDG5=kkcpQxT9dowtA@mail.gmail.com>

Tch - they could as well just purchase certain countries, no need to
cleave off a piece.

Also note, any country they could buy "sovereignty" from, is likely to
be the kind of nation to try to renege on the deal within a couple
decades, keeping the money but asserting - by force - its ownership
and laws.  This is especially true given the probable very low amount
of military that this new entity is likely to have.

But if they want to waste their money, it's theirs to waste.  Just so
long as they and their dependents remain able to flee back to their
previous homes when the deal goes bad.

On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/freesocietycom-to-form-the-worlds-first-libertarian-country-646060023.html
>
> https://www.freesociety.com/
>
> I really like the Free Society Foundation idea. Purchasing sovereign
> nation status for a piece of land, from the government that currently
> owns the land, seems to me a much more realistic option than
> seasteading, abandoned platforms, and unclaimed land (e.g. Liberland).
> It will be very interested to watch this project as it unfolds.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 08:57:00 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 10:57:00 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Free Society Foundation Plans To Purchase Sovereignty for
 Libertarian Nation
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSsLy2LnMV8GWnpts5LzxngfikDeDG5=kkcpQxT9dowtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydwzfYsOHAJ0AsMm8KwcUPdxvZieBCqvn1-Z4Eb8ZbQSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSsLy2LnMV8GWnpts5LzxngfikDeDG5=kkcpQxT9dowtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeeEAOOUubQTMspt56sHPbqOo+9+OeLT6tM9b_N4LKKmw@mail.gmail.com>

Then they should choose a small and poor country with little money for
military expenses, and start building big guns as soon as they settle
in...

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> Tch - they could as well just purchase certain countries, no need to
> cleave off a piece.
>
> Also note, any country they could buy "sovereignty" from, is likely to
> be the kind of nation to try to renege on the deal within a couple
> decades, keeping the money but asserting - by force - its ownership
> and laws.  This is especially true given the probable very low amount
> of military that this new entity is likely to have.
>
> But if they want to waste their money, it's theirs to waste.  Just so
> long as they and their dependents remain able to flee back to their
> previous homes when the deal goes bad.
>
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/freesocietycom-to-form-the-worlds-first-libertarian-country-646060023.html
>>
>> https://www.freesociety.com/
>>
>> I really like the Free Society Foundation idea. Purchasing sovereign
>> nation status for a piece of land, from the government that currently
>> owns the land, seems to me a much more realistic option than
>> seasteading, abandoned platforms, and unclaimed land (e.g. Liberland).
>> It will be very interested to watch this project as it unfolds.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From giulio at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 07:37:40 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:37:40 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <C9A3B77F-401F-4916-B770-EB405436574F@gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydtC_rhQ2VZ8x3FJctLQCGtTs3kibwcR2qz=6jo1T+Y3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJrtBE2V4qs+CX37PW4VVd=F+pfyBvJ7GePsjHmXa9ia5iQkJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAP4Ud3FxHHqUUCh+Hj1-qYcPU74y7Qcj3P-kRW6PBs37+5Q98A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyfohi70EMxeu7+2us6JbZVL5HN0_BSy6fT0H1vAUJFZ_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <C9A3B77F-401F-4916-B770-EB405436574F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJydG+qQwsfBM-w7M_Q1PkhXy3pbkFC=qFe6Wp1+1e64knQ@mail.gmail.com>

Come on, that's the game liberals play, I thought I could expect
better from you. If I give you an arXiv paper, you'll ask for a paper
on a peer reviewed journal. If I give you a paper on a peer reviewed
journal, you'll say that the author is unknown. If the author is
known, you'll say that he is not a specialist. If he is, you'll find
other specialists that criticize the paper. If the author is a Nobel
laureate, you'll say that he is blinded by religion. Come ooon !

Said that, there are many papers out there, much better than my
half-baked conceptual speculations. I just created a subreddit to
assemble scientific references, and will start filling it soon.
Contributors welcome:
https://www.reddit.com/r/irrationalmechanics/

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 4:10 AM, Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think you know me to be of a very hopeful spirit.  But a hopeful spirit isn?t unfortunately enough to make the hope realizable.  More embedded.
>
>
>> On Sep 15, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You are missing a hopeful spirit and some arXiv papers ;-) The author
>> of this book is not a physicist and doesn't go into details of how our
>> descendants could copy/teleport detailed information from their past
>> (our present) to their present (our future). Given that capability,
>> our descendants could resurrect people by copying them from their past
>> to their present.. The book just hints at future technologies based on
>> quantum entanglement and all that.
>
> Please point to any good science papers on how one may reach back into the past, in this case into the past brain state of a then living person, and copy information to one?s own time long after that person is deceased.  I don?t know of anything in physics that would allow such a thing.   Yeah, you can indeed do amassing things if that is possible.   But what would lead us to think that it is?
>
>>
>> There are hints at promising directions in current cutting edge
>> speculative physics. ER=EPR is one: If wormholes connect entangled
>> particles and entanglement is ubiquitous, then there are wormholes
>> connecting every pixel of spacetime to every other pixel of spacetime,
>> and these wormholes can be exploited as data channels between here/now
>> and there/then (just like in Stephen Baxter's "The Light of Other
>> Days.?
>
> Wormholes won?t cut it.  And no reputable astrophysicists claims there are wormholes connecting every pixel (?) of spacetime to ever other part.  Again please point to the papers if there is reputable science here.
>
>
>>
>> More generally, I find the "emergent physics" approach persuasive: Our
>> physics of matter and fields in Einstein's spacetime emerges from the
>> unknown physics of an underlying trans-Planckian substrate, just like
>> the physics of quasiparticles (e.g. phonons) emerge from the "real"
>> physics of a material substrate (e.g. a crystal). Space and time
>> themselves emerge from trans-Planckian physics like an eefctive
>> spacetime emerges from fluid dynamics in sonic black hole experiments
>> (fluid analogues of general relativity). The entangled wormhole mouths
>> in ER=EPR could be intermediate representations of reality, halfway
>> between our physics and the unknown trans-Planckian physics.
>
>
> That is like zero hard science speculation.  I hope there is better out there.
>
> - samantha
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat



From atymes at gmail.com  Sat Sep 23 16:26:51 2017
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 09:26:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Free Society Foundation Plans To Purchase Sovereignty for
 Libertarian Nation
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeeEAOOUubQTMspt56sHPbqOo+9+OeLT6tM9b_N4LKKmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKTCJydwzfYsOHAJ0AsMm8KwcUPdxvZieBCqvn1-Z4Eb8ZbQSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSsLy2LnMV8GWnpts5LzxngfikDeDG5=kkcpQxT9dowtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyeeEAOOUubQTMspt56sHPbqOo+9+OeLT6tM9b_N4LKKmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRUcT4f9ta4cyyC8bXxgrXCg0ve=dG=L4VyLc4iXBxGoA@mail.gmail.com>

Any country willing to sell like this has money for military expenses
- but perhaps not that much else.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 1:57 AM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
> Then they should choose a small and poor country with little money for
> military expenses, and start building big guns as soon as they settle
> in...
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 9:44 AM, Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tch - they could as well just purchase certain countries, no need to
>> cleave off a piece.
>>
>> Also note, any country they could buy "sovereignty" from, is likely to
>> be the kind of nation to try to renege on the deal within a couple
>> decades, keeping the money but asserting - by force - its ownership
>> and laws.  This is especially true given the probable very low amount
>> of military that this new entity is likely to have.
>>
>> But if they want to waste their money, it's theirs to waste.  Just so
>> long as they and their dependents remain able to flee back to their
>> previous homes when the deal goes bad.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/freesocietycom-to-form-the-worlds-first-libertarian-country-646060023.html
>>>
>>> https://www.freesociety.com/
>>>
>>> I really like the Free Society Foundation idea. Purchasing sovereign
>>> nation status for a piece of land, from the government that currently
>>> owns the land, seems to me a much more realistic option than
>>> seasteading, abandoned platforms, and unclaimed land (e.g. Liberland).
>>> It will be very interested to watch this project as it unfolds.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 24 15:00:28 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 10:00:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like it's far better than anything we've got.  I wonder why others
don't follow Portugal's lead?

I suspect it's because we look on users as weak people, as morally
deficient, not as unhealthy people to be treated.  Aside from deaths
prevents, just think how this would affect crime rates.

bill w

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/22/opinion/sunday/portugal-drug-decriminalization.html?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits&_r=0
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:01:13 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 15:01:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 11:00 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Seems like it's far better than anything we've got.  I wonder why others
> don't follow Portugal's lead?
>
> I suspect it's because we look on users as weak people, as morally
> deficient, not as unhealthy people to be treated.  Aside from deaths
> prevents, just think how this would affect crime rates.
>

I suspect it's because fighting the War on Drugs is big money. Same as
fighting the War on Terror. Neither is about winning.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Sep 24 23:39:25 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 18:39:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I suspect it's because fighting the War on Drugs is big money. Same as
> fighting the War on Terror. Neither is about winning.
>
> -Dave
>

?Maybe I am having a senior moment, but am not coming up with who profits
from the war on drugs.  It's not as if people who use pot are going to buy
something legal if they can't get pot.  Of course, being illegal means the
prices stay high, profiting the drug dealers and growers.?

>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From gwaggoner at gmail.com  Sun Sep 24 19:29:59 2017
From: gwaggoner at gmail.com (Gabe Waggoner)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 15:29:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <mailman.52.1506167720.1476.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.52.1506167720.1476.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CC026AFA-FD8C-4428-9C51-869390D30D03@gmail.com>

> On Sep 11, 2017, at 12:43 AM, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
> 
> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
> technological resurrection...
> 
> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6 <https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6>


Hi, everyone. I?ve never posted to the list, though I?ve enjoyed the digest for years. I?m catching up on messages after some extended hospital stays. I don?t speak up often, but I?m glad this forum exists.

I enjoyed Giulio?s review of Technological Resurrection on turingchurch.net <http://turingchurch.net/> (what a great site) and decided to buy the book. Resurrection in the context of transhumanism and technology is certainly a worthy endeavor. Delving into topics as varied as quantum physics, time travel, spirituality, and morality, the writer clearly is excited about what he has to say. He even includes comparisons of his viewpoints with those in science fiction to help give unfamiliar readers a background grid through which to envision some of the more esoteric concepts.

One consequence of living in the digital age is that vanity publishing has become commonplace. I mean no offense to the author (a fellow Texan in my general age bracket) and hope only to show him the tools that would serve him well in future books.

As much as I enjoyed the book on a conceptual level, it reads much like raw, unfiltered stream of consciousness. The text itself seems disjointed and is full of errors in grammar, punctuation, spelling, usage, and typography. Going to the time and expense of hiring an editor would have helped the book be more cohesive. The lack of professional polish and development is evident. The errors are jarring and detract from the experience of reading what has the potential to be a thought-provoking essay. Sentence fragments, misused words (e.g., "flaunt" for "flout" and "phased" for "fazed") and overused exclamation points abound (among other problems). The narrative feels forced, with far too many inappropriately casual side comments from the author interspersed. And if this were a blog post that people weren't asked to pay for, that would be another thing altogether.

On a more substantive level, the book alludes to scientific studies that the writer claims serve as proof of one point or another, yet the text doesn't formally cite any sources. Even if the author's goal was not to create a document backed up with reference sources, having a bibliography or "for further reading" list would have been helpful and lent some credibility. (I realize that the author does refer in passing to several books, movies, and people by name; I'm not talking about those instances.) The text also claims in various places that 99% of people believe in angels/spirits/demons/aliens and that 99% of people have reported such contacts. Clearly, he meant that most people on Earth have some concept of an afterlife or believe in aliens. But it seems as though "99%" is the default number writers use when they mean "most people," to say nothing of the lack of precision and accuracy in such statements. 

The book's structure is formulaic; the writing, sophomoric. Weak, underdeveloped writing undermines its own message. But with the proper care, it could become a remarkable resource for transhumanism and for people who've begun to sense that science has the power to save us. I applaud the writer for his vision and his courage in putting his work out for scrutiny. The only way to get better at writing is to keep doing it, and I hope he does so.

?
Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS
Washington, DC
http://www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/


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From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 05:20:54 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 07:20:54 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CC026AFA-FD8C-4428-9C51-869390D30D03@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1506167720.1476.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <CC026AFA-FD8C-4428-9C51-869390D30D03@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd-TWQ21t6eHQ8=ZZaqgEr-=M4vRcmd3WGf8ruNcB6qSg@mail.gmail.com>

It feels good to wake up a lurking reader, you guys should post more.
And thanks for liking my turingchurch.net site!

My own (very much related) book in preparation will cite scientific
sources. You'll NOT find a solid explanation of how technological
resurrection would work in today's scientific literature, but you will
find pointers to promising research directions. One problem is that,
if a scientific paper implies our descendants could resurrect the dead
by doing this and that, the author will hide the implication behind
jargon and details to protect his career.

Yes, editors do help producing better books. Too bad traditional
publishers will not limit editing to spell checking, syntax etc., but
will change the substance of the content. A way out is, as you say,
hiring an editor, but that costs money.

For my book I'll ask a group of knowledgeable and trusted friends to
merciless criticize the first draft.

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Gabe Waggoner <gwaggoner at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 11, 2017, at 12:43 AM, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
>
> Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
>
> The recently published book ?Technological Resurrection: A Thought
> Experiment,? by Jonathan Jones, is a little gem. It only costs $1.26,
> and provides a short and readable first introduction to our ideas on
> technological resurrection...
>
> https://turingchurch.net/book-review-technological-resurrection-by-jonathan-jones-e651b8c78fb6
>
>
>
> Hi, everyone. I?ve never posted to the list, though I?ve enjoyed the digest
> for years. I?m catching up on messages after some extended hospital stays. I
> don?t speak up often, but I?m glad this forum exists.
>
> I enjoyed Giulio?s review of Technological Resurrection on turingchurch.net
> (what a great site) and decided to buy the book. Resurrection in the context
> of transhumanism and technology is certainly a worthy endeavor. Delving into
> topics as varied as quantum physics, time travel, spirituality, and
> morality, the writer clearly is excited about what he has to say. He even
> includes comparisons of his viewpoints with those in science fiction to help
> give unfamiliar readers a background grid through which to envision some of
> the more esoteric concepts.
>
> One consequence of living in the digital age is that vanity publishing has
> become commonplace. I mean no offense to the author (a fellow Texan in my
> general age bracket) and hope only to show him the tools that would serve
> him well in future books.
>
> As much as I enjoyed the book on a conceptual level, it reads much like raw,
> unfiltered stream of consciousness. The text itself seems disjointed and is
> full of errors in grammar, punctuation, spelling, usage, and typography.
> Going to the time and expense of hiring an editor would have helped the book
> be more cohesive. The lack of professional polish and development is
> evident. The errors are jarring and detract from the experience of reading
> what has the potential to be a thought-provoking essay. Sentence fragments,
> misused words (e.g., "flaunt" for "flout" and "phased" for "fazed") and
> overused exclamation points abound (among other problems). The narrative
> feels forced, with far too many inappropriately casual side comments from
> the author interspersed. And if this were a blog post that people weren't
> asked to pay for, that would be another thing altogether.
>
> On a more substantive level, the book alludes to scientific studies that the
> writer claims serve as proof of one point or another, yet the text doesn't
> formally cite any sources. Even if the author's goal was not to create a
> document backed up with reference sources, having a bibliography or "for
> further reading" list would have been helpful and lent some credibility. (I
> realize that the author does refer in passing to several books, movies, and
> people by name; I'm not talking about those instances.) The text also claims
> in various places that 99% of people believe in angels/spirits/demons/aliens
> and that 99% of people have reported such contacts. Clearly, he meant that
> most people on Earth have some concept of an afterlife or believe in aliens.
> But it seems as though "99%" is the default number writers use when they
> mean "most people," to say nothing of the lack of precision and accuracy in
> such statements.
>
> The book's structure is formulaic; the writing, sophomoric. Weak,
> underdeveloped writing undermines its own message. But with the proper care,
> it could become a remarkable resource for transhumanism and for people
> who've begun to sense that science has the power to save us. I applaud the
> writer for his vision and his courage in putting his work out for scrutiny.
> The only way to get better at writing is to keep doing it, and I hope he
> does so.
>
> ?
> Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS
> Washington, DC
> http://www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>



From spike66 at att.net  Mon Sep 25 05:23:02 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 22:23:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones
In-Reply-To: <CC026AFA-FD8C-4428-9C51-869390D30D03@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.52.1506167720.1476.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <CC026AFA-FD8C-4428-9C51-869390D30D03@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a201d335be$5ca211e0$15e635a0$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Gabe Waggoner
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 12:30 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Book review: Technological Resurrection, by Jonathan Jones

 

Hi, everyone. I?ve never posted to the list, though I?ve enjoyed the digest for years. I?m catching up on messages after some extended hospital stays. I don?t speak up often, but I?m glad this forum exists.

 

 

?

Gabe Waggoner, MS, ELS

Washington, DC
http://www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/

 

Welcome Gabe.  Tell us something about Gabe.  We already know something: you were sick but better now.  This is good.

 

 

spike

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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 13:30:41 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:30:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 7:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> ?Maybe I am having a senior moment, but am not coming up with who profits
> from the war on drugs.  It's not as if people who use pot are going to buy
> something legal if they can't get pot.  Of course, being illegal means the
> prices stay high, profiting the drug dealers and growers.?
>

Not a comprehensive list:

US DOJ
Police departments, via civil asset forfeiture and federal funding
Prisons
Law enforcement suppliers
Drug testing industry
Lawyers
Politicians who receive campaign donations from those benefitting

-Dave
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Sep 25 16:02:13 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:02:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>

On Sep 25, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 7:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> ?Maybe I am having a senior moment, but am not coming up with who profits from the war on drugs.  It's not as if people who use pot are going to buy something legal if they can't get pot.  Of course, being illegal means the prices stay high, profiting the drug dealers and growers.?
> 
> Not a comprehensive list:
> 
> US DOJ
> Police departments, via civil asset forfeiture and federal funding
> Prisons
> Law enforcement suppliers
> Drug testing industry
> Lawyers
> Politicians who receive campaign donations from those benefitting

I would add to those:

1. Public officials who are corrupted by payments from those in the illegal drug business

2. Those in said business who benefit from keeping prices up and competitors out

3. Far less directly: pharmaceuticals and those in healthcare who benefit when people with depression, chronic pain, and other maladies can't use marijuana to self-medicate.

It shocks me that folks are just discovering the Portugal now and that they don't seem to know libertarians have been making the case for ending drug prohibition for decades now.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap


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From jordanhh at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 02:01:20 2017
From: jordanhh at gmail.com (Jordan Hosmer-Henner)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 19:01:20 -0700
Subject: [ExI] U.of Tokyo invents 'loop-based quantum computer'
Message-ID: <CALoiC513iqt=x2gRngRXXug9gV0nAuQULqewaCz3NBr=ipZywg@mail.gmail.com>

"Under the new method, many pulses of light, each carrying information, are
allowed to go around in a loop circuit indefinitely. The circuit performs
multiple tasks, switching from one task to another rapidly through instant
manipulations of the pulses."

The invention was announced in an article by University of Tokyo professor
Akira Furusawa and assistant professor Shuntaro Takeda that was posted on
an electronic version of the U.S. journal Physical Review Letters.

?We?ll start work to develop the hardware, now that we?ve resolved all
problems except how to make a scheme that automatically corrects a
calculation error,? Furusawa said.
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From spike66 at att.net  Tue Sep 26 04:40:23 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 21:40:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] robot barley
Message-ID: <012a01d33681$9171c5f0$b45551d0$@att.net>

Cool!

 

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/robot-farmers-harvest-barley/

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 15:26:20 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 11:26:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] U.of Tokyo invents 'loop-based quantum computer'
In-Reply-To: <CALoiC513iqt=x2gRngRXXug9gV0nAuQULqewaCz3NBr=ipZywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALoiC513iqt=x2gRngRXXug9gV0nAuQULqewaCz3NBr=ipZywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2mPybh7qvp0G2-N9o1Phqu+5J1yp21_HqaaUgHpsNaVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 10:01 PM, Jordan Hosmer-Henner <jordanhh at gmail.com>
wrote:

?> ?
> "Under the new method, many pulses of light, each carrying information,
> are allowed to go around in a loop circuit indefinitely. The circuit
> performs multiple tasks, switching from one task to another rapidly through
> instant manipulations of the pulses."
>
> The invention was announced in an article by University of Tokyo professor
> Akira Furusawa and assistant professor Shuntaro Takeda that was posted on
> an electronic version of the U.S. journal Physical Review Letters.
>
> ?We?ll start work to develop the hardware, now that we?ve resolved all
> problems except how to make a scheme that automatically corrects a
> calculation error,? Furusawa said.
>

That's interesting but they can't scale it up to make a full scale machine
just yet because existing error correcting schemes can only do so much and
their error rate ?is still about 6 dB too high. The authors of the paper
admit this but say:

?"?
*However, the requirement for fault tolerance is likely to be satisfied in
the near future by further? ?improvement of technology or error-correction
protocols*
?"

I hope they're right but getting those last few dB's is hard.

John K Clark






>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 13:56:15 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 08:56:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Dan and Dave - I just don't know where my mind went.

Here is another/new addiction problem:  doctors never, in my experience,
suggest meds other than prescription ones which Big PHarm pays them to push.

I got off Naproxen (did I post that?) when the People's Pharmacy, which I
do trust, posted a scary journal article about nsaids.  No osteoprthritis
pain came back, apparently because I also have been taking curcumin and
boswellia - anti-inflammatories.

I think a lot of people have stories like this, and get their info from
other people or web sites which may be of questionable validity, as many of
them are selling supplements like curcurmin.  I don't know of a reputable
journal which reports experiments and studies of various supplements, so we
have little experimental evidence to go on.

Some of these things work, and have been working for thousands of years.
So why don't physicians know of these and prescribe them?  We know, don't
we?

Most people have something wrong with them and go to various people for
help.  One supplement seller acknowledged that he was selling hope, as he
had no evidence for any of his products.

This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary interest
in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific work to find
out what works and what doesn't?

bill w

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 6:30 AM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 7:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> ?Maybe I am having a senior moment, but am not coming up with who profits
>> from the war on drugs.  It's not as if people who use pot are going to buy
>> something legal if they can't get pot.  Of course, being illegal means the
>> prices stay high, profiting the drug dealers and growers.?
>>
>
> Not a comprehensive list:
>
> US DOJ
> Police departments, via civil asset forfeiture and federal funding
> Prisons
> Law enforcement suppliers
> Drug testing industry
> Lawyers
> Politicians who receive campaign donations from those benefitting
>
>
> I would add to those:
>
> 1. Public officials who are corrupted by payments from those in the
> illegal drug business
>
> 2. Those in said business who benefit from keeping prices up and
> competitors out
>
> 3. Far less directly: pharmaceuticals and those in healthcare who benefit
> when people with depression, chronic pain, and other maladies can't use
> marijuana to self-medicate.
>
> It shocks me that folks are just discovering the Portugal now and that
> they don't seem to know libertarians have been making the case for ending
> drug prohibition for decades now.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
> http://mybook.to/SandTrap
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 19:23:22 2017
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:23:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cmiTybAdH3xGm+u8tgamgapKThgxdQ+bMovMmr-4eK-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you Dan and Dave - I just don't know where my mind went.
>

No prob. We all have moments.

Here is another/new addiction problem:  doctors never, in my experience,
> suggest meds other than prescription ones which Big PHarm pays them to push.
> ...
>
Some of these things work, and have been working for thousands of years.
> So why don't physicians know of these and prescribe them?  We know, don't
> we?
>

You sort of answered it above: money. Drug testing and marketing are
expensive. Supplements aren't novel so they aren't patentable, therefore,
drug companies have no incentive to develop them as products.

This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary interest
> in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific work to find
> out what works and what doesn't?
>

They have to get funding somewhere. I'm a libertarian and fundamentally
distrust the government, but I'd gladly support cutting the DoD budget by
2% and reallocating half of that to supplement research.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 20:09:48 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:09:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2cmiTybAdH3xGm+u8tgamgapKThgxdQ+bMovMmr-4eK-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2cmiTybAdH3xGm+u8tgamgapKThgxdQ+bMovMmr-4eK-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbvso=feFmCp8GsX_kJ_y_KF7PAKcN2qjofdeFOuijxLg@mail.gmail.com>

They have to get funding somewhere. I'm a libertarian and fundamentally
distrust the government, but I'd gladly support cutting the DoD budget by
2% and reallocating half of that to supplement research.

-Dave

Yeah, or more.  We have learned not to trust the FDA, which is and maybe
always has been crippled by politics.  SEC also - people move in and out of
DC to Big Pharm, Wall Street, and probably all the other places the feds
attempt to regulate.  The game is, as always, it seems, follow the money.
 bill w

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 9:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Dan and Dave - I just don't know where my mind went.
>>
>
> No prob. We all have moments.
>
> Here is another/new addiction problem:  doctors never, in my experience,
>> suggest meds other than prescription ones which Big PHarm pays them to push.
>> ...
>>
> Some of these things work, and have been working for thousands of years.
>> So why don't physicians know of these and prescribe them?  We know, don't
>> we?
>>
>
> You sort of answered it above: money. Drug testing and marketing are
> expensive. Supplements aren't novel so they aren't patentable, therefore,
> drug companies have no incentive to develop them as products.
>
> This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary interest
>> in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific work to find
>> out what works and what doesn't?
>>
>
> They have to get funding somewhere. I'm a libertarian and fundamentally
> distrust the government, but I'd gladly support cutting the DoD budget by
> 2% and reallocating half of that to supplement research.
>
> -Dave
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 18:54:58 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 14:54:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8BThe_sort_of_thing_that_gives_=E2=80=8Bhy?=
	=?utf-8?q?pocrisy_=E2=80=8Ba_bad_name?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0r0F9xAHUQcF+nhDX7tmmAJNcnEcsabdR-a9CH7PBm6A@mail.gmail.com>

At Least 6
?Trump?
 Advisers Used Private Email Accounts
?:?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/us/politics/private-
email-trump-kushner-bannon.html?action=click&module=Top%
20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

? John K Clark?
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From sjv2006 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 01:41:07 2017
From: sjv2006 at gmail.com (Stephen Van Sickle)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:41:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] SpaceX talk at Stanford
Message-ID: <CADYziYBmsK-XV9Vy4ArDVWDoiyZaqptWQxrtn1ZGtZdspX3oMg@mail.gmail.com>

Some of you Bay Area critters may be interested. I'm going.

<goog_1619334755>
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/gwynne-shotwell-road-to-mars-tickets-37968773624?utm_source=eb_email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=order_confirmation_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemailordconf



Gwynne Shotwell: Road to Mars
<https://www.eventbrite.com/e/gwynne-shotwell-road-to-mars-tickets-37968773624?utm_source=eb_email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=order_confirmation_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemailordconf>

DESCRIPTION

As President and COO of SpaceX, Gwynne Shotwell is responsible for the
company?s day-to-day operations and for managing all customer and strategic
relations. She joined SpaceX in 2002 as Vice President of Business
Development and the company?s seventh employee. Since that time she has
helped SpaceX secure over 100 missions to its manifest, representing over
$12 billion in contracts.

In addition to building the Falcon vehicle family of launches, Shotwell is
also driving efforts to fly people on SpaceX?s Dragon spacecraft, send
private passengers around the Moon, and land the first private spacecraft
on Mars.

On Wednesday, October 11th, Shotwell will share SpaceX's story on the road
to Mars. After the talk, there will be a Q&A session hosted by Steve
Jurvetson from DFJ Venture Capital.

Doors open at 6:30pm.

If you'd like to donate to SSI for hosting this event, please visit
http://ssi.stanford.edu/give. Thanks!


DATE AND TIME

Wed, October 11, 2017

7:00 PM ? 8:00 PM PDT

Add to Calendar
<https://www.eventbrite.com/e/gwynne-shotwell-road-to-mars-tickets-37968773624?utm_source=eb_email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=order_confirmation_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemailordconf#add-to-calendar-modal>
LOCATION

Dinkelspiel Auditorium

471 Lagunita Drive

Stanford, CA 94305

View Map
<https://www.eventbrite.com/e/gwynne-shotwell-road-to-mars-tickets-37968773624?utm_source=eb_email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=order_confirmation_email&utm_term=eventname&ref=eemailordconf#map-target>
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Sep 26 23:55:38 2017
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 23:55:38 +0000
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 8:10 pm, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thank you Dan and Dave - I just don't know where my mind went.
>
> Here is another/new addiction problem:  doctors never, in my experience,
> suggest meds other than prescription ones which Big PHarm pays them to push.
>

Drug companies try to influence doctors with advertising claiming efficacy
for their drug, but how do they pay them to push the drug? I know some
doctors who go to great length to avoid any contact with drug company reps
and avoid any events or perks (such as lunch) that might come from drug
companies, but they still end up prescribing the same drugs.

I got off Naproxen (did I post that?) when the People's Pharmacy, which I
> do trust, posted a scary journal article about nsaids.  No osteoprthritis
> pain came back, apparently because I also have been taking curcumin and
> boswellia - anti-inflammatories.
>

If there are no good systematic studies of these, how do you know that they
work and it isn?t just placebo effect, and that they don?t cause some other
long term side-effect? If you stopped the naproxen and nothing happened
then I suspect if you stopped the curvumin and boswellia (which seem quite
a bit more expensive than naproxen on a cursory online search), or replaced
them with something else such as green tea, nothing would happen.

I think a lot of people have stories like this, and get their info from
> other people or web sites which may be of questionable validity, as many of
> them are selling supplements like curcurmin.  I don't know of a reputable
> journal which reports experiments and studies of various supplements, so we
> have little experimental evidence to go on.
>
> Some of these things work, and have been working for thousands of years.
> So why don't physicians know of these and prescribe them?  We know, don't
> we?
>
> Most people have something wrong with them and go to various people for
> help.  One supplement seller acknowledged that he was selling hope, as he
> had no evidence for any of his products.
>
> This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary interest
> in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific work to find
> out what works and what doesn't?
>
> bill w
>
-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:16:26 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 09:16:26 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZQ7B6xTyVwPu+BsLGHUJ1EZby_kb=K7X-ijrxUOqw8gw@mail.gmail.com>

Stathis wrote: If there are no good systematic studies of these, how do you
know that they work and it isn?t just placebo effect, and that they don?t
cause some other long term side-effect? If you stopped the naproxen and
nothing happened then I suspect if you stopped the curvumin and boswellia
(which seem quite a bit more expensive than naproxen on a cursory online
search), or replaced them with something else such as green tea, nothing
would happen.
------
Well, we don't know.  But if it's a placebo effect it's a powerful one.
And if the herbs are dangerous it would have been found out thousands of
years ago.  At 75 I"ll deal with the present problems.  Long term effects
are not under consideration.  There are other anti-inflammatories that may
work as well, but why give up what seems to be working?  Cost is also not a
consideration.

bill w

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 8:10 pm, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Dan and Dave - I just don't know where my mind went.
>>
>> Here is another/new addiction problem:  doctors never, in my experience,
>> suggest meds other than prescription ones which Big PHarm pays them to push.
>>
>
> Drug companies try to influence doctors with advertising claiming efficacy
> for their drug, but how do they pay them to push the drug? I know some
> doctors who go to great length to avoid any contact with drug company reps
> and avoid any events or perks (such as lunch) that might come from drug
> companies, but they still end up prescribing the same drugs.
>
> I got off Naproxen (did I post that?) when the People's Pharmacy, which I
>> do trust, posted a scary journal article about nsaids.  No osteoprthritis
>> pain came back, apparently because I also have been taking curcumin and
>> boswellia - anti-inflammatories.
>>
>
> If there are no good systematic studies of these, how do you know that
> they work and it isn?t just placebo effect, and that they don?t cause some
> other long term side-effect? If you stopped the naproxen and nothing
> happened then I suspect if you stopped the curvumin and boswellia (which
> seem quite a bit more expensive than naproxen on a cursory online search),
> or replaced them with something else such as green tea, nothing would
> happen.
>
> I think a lot of people have stories like this, and get their info from
>> other people or web sites which may be of questionable validity, as many of
>> them are selling supplements like curcurmin.  I don't know of a reputable
>> journal which reports experiments and studies of various supplements, so we
>> have little experimental evidence to go on.
>>
>> Some of these things work, and have been working for thousands of years.
>> So why don't physicians know of these and prescribe them?  We know, don't
>> we?
>>
>> Most people have something wrong with them and go to various people for
>> help.  One supplement seller acknowledged that he was selling hope, as he
>> had no evidence for any of his products.
>>
>> This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary
>> interest in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific
>> work to find out what works and what doesn't?
>>
>> bill w
>>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 14:14:19 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 16:14:19 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Simulation physics and theology for Qubitzers
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyd84MDjTAJ4cJm=dbAKTdDrcWo8HRp27RN+g_obrDE=og@mail.gmail.com>

Simulation physics and theology for Qubitzers

A recent paper by physicist Leonard Susskind , titled ?Dear Qubitzers,
GR=QM,? outlines (among other things) intriguing physical models for
the simulation hypothesis...

https://turingchurch.net/simulation-physics-and-theology-for-qubitzers-6212da7c6414



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 15:28:39 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 08:28:39 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8810AF2B-39BB-4009-8259-BA4CE3062ACD@gmail.com>

On Sep 26, 2017, at 4:55 PM, Stathis Papaioannou <stathisp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 at 8:10 pm, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I got off Naproxen (did I post that?) when the People's Pharmacy, which I do trust, posted a scary journal article about nsaids.  No osteoprthritis pain came back, apparently because I also have been taking curcumin and boswellia - anti-inflammatories.
> 
> If there are no good systematic studies of these, how do you know that they work and it isn?t just placebo effect, and that they don?t cause some other long term side-effect? If you stopped the naproxen and nothing happened then I suspect if you stopped the curvumin and boswellia (which seem quite a bit more expensive than naproxen on a cursory online search), or replaced them with something else such as green tea, nothing would happen.

There seem to be good studies of curcumin:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2637808/#!po=9.89848

And boswellia seems to have some studies behind it too -- though not as strong:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3992997/

(Note that one is a mouse study -- not a human trial.)

Note also that he said he was taking curcumin and boswellia with naproxen -- not that he went off naproxen then waited a while and started taking them. True, he wasn't doing a double blind on himself, but my guess would be that curcumin or boswellia had some non-placebo impact.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 15:34:35 2017
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 08:34:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZQ7B6xTyVwPu+BsLGHUJ1EZby_kb=K7X-ijrxUOqw8gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZQ7B6xTyVwPu+BsLGHUJ1EZby_kb=K7X-ijrxUOqw8gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1166BE58-D967-481F-AC0A-9625A3EA4990@gmail.com>

On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:16 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, we don't know.  But if it's a placebo effect it's a powerful one.  And if the herbs are dangerous it would have been found out thousands of years ago.  At 75 I"ll deal with the present problems.  Long term effects are not under consideration.  There are other anti-inflammatories that may work as well, but why give up what seems to be working?  Cost is also not a consideration.

I wouldn't take that stance that something can't be dangerous simply because people have been using it for thousands of years. Some herbs do have bad effects, such as bitter orange extract which causes bad effects directly and has bad interactions with statins. So as a general rule, always do the research. (In this case, you seem to have done that or relied on someone who has, so no issue.)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
http://mybook.to/SandTrap
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:34:10 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 12:34:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] addiction solution?
In-Reply-To: <1166BE58-D967-481F-AC0A-9625A3EA4990@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYrMpDRiqZ8LTaPWNQb4pZ=0J9hapBb4cWvqq+aEqA-Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2crXaGB-MxQB6aNRi+R8d4OdNZZCD8MkR82OCgp46v2gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaj0aoXN6Ad9j2L7VAAh-+TGvP-ht8xBL2WaAUGAa1Wsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2fdBefDbFh2oNhfeUR161pEcsMVoFKQ9kLYQbW_U1VHjg@mail.gmail.com>
 <23EA0465-39BF-4F50-A932-0E0DF11F9C78@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbniAN1ErghNCcOYZGPJaYR-TscTULKHK9pokOzcSLVuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH=2ypWiSUHP8gNPOCuExeYmGtUdTJCJzTs8JV=Ag3OVz3e44Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZQ7B6xTyVwPu+BsLGHUJ1EZby_kb=K7X-ijrxUOqw8gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1166BE58-D967-481F-AC0A-9625A3EA4990@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZzxVqtdK0un8bz_d-ghokrxgPLqrANKPf89rm=Socr1w@mail.gmail.com>

I wouldn't take that stance that something can't be dangerous simply
because people have been using it for thousands of years. Some herbs do
have bad effects, such as bitter orange extract which causes bad effects
directly and has bad interactions with statins. So as a general rule,
always do the research. (In this case, you seem to have done that or relied
on someone who has, so no issue.)

Regards,

Dan

I would far rather take my chances with anything other than statins.  bill w

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sep 27, 2017, at 7:16 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Well, we don't know.  But if it's a placebo effect it's a powerful one.
> And if the herbs are dangerous it would have been found out thousands of
> years ago.  At 75 I"ll deal with the present problems.  Long term effects
> are not under consideration.  There are other anti-inflammatories that may
> work as well, but why give up what seems to be working?  Cost is also not a
> consideration.
>
>
> I wouldn't take that stance that something can't be dangerous simply
> because people have been using it for thousands of years. Some herbs do
> have bad effects, such as bitter orange extract which causes bad effects
> directly and has bad interactions with statins. So as a general rule,
> always do the research. (In this case, you seem to have done that or relied
> on someone who has, so no issue.)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
> http://mybook.to/SandTrap
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Sep 27 17:38:02 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 12:38:02 -0500
Subject: [ExI] herba statins etc.
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb2WmCfP-MZhvjuGm34VfxNQd0ePD2Sudwvxz6fno2rgg@mail.gmail.com>

This site is run by professionals, one a Ph.D. in physiology.  No one is
right about everything, but they have a good track record as far as I can
tell.  Tons of info about nearly everything.  They sell a few things, but
not anything they present research about.   So, about as independent as you
can expect to get nowadays.

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/

bill w
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Sep 28 01:19:46 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 18:19:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ligo does it again
Message-ID: <000801d337f7$e02b4be0$a081e3a0$@att.net>

 

ASTONISHING!  Hanford LIGO just announced the detection of the 4th black
hole merger:

 

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/WA/news

 

How can there be so many of these?  John?

 

spike

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From rocket at earthlight.com  Wed Sep 27 18:30:51 2017
From: rocket at earthlight.com (Re Rose)
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2017 14:30:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 168, Issue 15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13.1506534347.24214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.13.1506534347.24214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CAFVzX8mWN5UkW+h+qO0SCNj4iN-TREKvfd78oSTB2t1Tw9M4dg@mail.gmail.com>

Apologies, my browser is not letting me edit the name of this email  :(

To answer the question below about basic research, please keep in mind not
all the research is - or should - be done by big pharma. Academics (should)
get funding to do basic research, so a problem arises is when academics
team up with pharma to push a profit agenda forward.

As a libertarian myself, I have no problem with making money, and believe
that people doing work should be paid for it. But basic discovery is the
work of science, while making a discovery into something marketable is the
job of industry. Crossing those lines leads to market distortion, and bad
incentives.

Personally, I have done such basic pharmaceutical research as an academic,
to develop a molecule called epibatidine as a non-narcotic pain reliever.
This promising molecule is still being studied by others and will present a
novel class of very effective, no-narcotic pain relievers once the toxicity
and bio-availability issues are solved. This research started in the lab as
a basic biochemistry sort of question (why does this frog-secreted molecule
block pain in mammals??) and once that was learned (it is an agonist of
nicotinic receptors, which blocks pain perception), pharma joined the
academics to develop this potential drug.

So, IMHO, the answer to finding novel and effective pharmaceuticals is to
keep academics academic, not profit-motivated, and continue to fund basic
and undirected research.

--Regina




Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 15:23:22 -0400

> From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>

> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

> Subject: Re: [ExI] addiction solution?

>

<SNIP!>
..........

>
You sort of answered it above: money. Drug testing and marketing are

> expensive. Supplements aren't novel so they aren't patentable, therefore,

> drug companies have no incentive to develop them as products.

>
>This needs to change.  How can we get people who have no monetary interest

> > in the outcomes of supplement studies to do quality scientific work to
find

> > out what works and what doesn't?

>

They have to get funding somewhere. I'm a libertarian and fundamentally

> distrust the government, but I'd gladly support cutting the DoD budget by

> 2% and reallocating half of that to supplement research.

>
-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 14:15:33 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 10:15:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ligo does it again
In-Reply-To: <000801d337f7$e02b4be0$a081e3a0$@att.net>
References: <000801d337f7$e02b4be0$a081e3a0$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1pKZ2H+6OVyOvLUQFAkRJ74v1U5YFCDeknmodfAfiGjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 9:19 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:


> ?> ?
> ASTONISHING!  Hanford LIGO just announced the detection of the 4th black
> hole merger:
>
> https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/WA/news
>
>
>
> How can there be so many of these?  John?
>

?And how can they be so big? Nobody predicted that, just a few years ago
people were saying if LIGO found anything (and some said they wouldn't) it
would be Black Hole mergers in the 7 or 8 solar mass range not the 40 to 50
solar mass range they actually have been seeing. It seems to me either
they're  primordial and were formed less than a nanosecond after the Big
Bang (and possibly are the cause of Dark Matter) or they came from the
first generation of stars. Nobody has yet seen a first generation star but
everybody knew they must have been larger than the stars we see today due
to the lack of elements heavier than hydrogen and helium, but nobody
predicted they would be *that* much heavier.

It was great to have 3 detectors this time, too bad all 3 were only working
together for a month, LIGO will now be offline for at least a year while it
undergoes further upgrades, so right now we only have Virgo in Italy and
it's only about a quarter as sensitive as LIGO. I hope when LIGO come back
in a year VIRGO doesn't go offline for upgrades, they've got to get their
maintenance schedules in sync because the say *?With the next observing run
planned for Fall 2018 we can expect such detections weekly or even more
often.? *That would be really cool!

  John K Clark
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From spike66 at att.net  Thu Sep 28 16:02:19 2017
From: spike66 at att.net (spike)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:02:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] ligo does it again
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1pKZ2H+6OVyOvLUQFAkRJ74v1U5YFCDeknmodfAfiGjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000801d337f7$e02b4be0$a081e3a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1pKZ2H+6OVyOvLUQFAkRJ74v1U5YFCDeknmodfAfiGjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b201d33873$2aa865b0$7ff93110$@att.net>

 

 

From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 7:16 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] ligo does it again

 

 

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 9:19 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net <mailto:spike66 at att.net> > wrote:
 

?> ?

ASTONISHING!  Hanford LIGO just announced the detection of the 4th black hole merger:

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/WA/news

 

How can there be so many of these?  John?

 

?>?And how can they be so big? 

 

I have been going nuts trying to figure that one out too.  There couldn?t have been stars that size to start with I wouldn?t think, or if so, my notion of star formation is completely wrong.  I have been trying to get up to speed on Eddington Limit to see where my notion went wrong.

 

>?Nobody predicted that, just a few years ago people were saying if LIGO found anything (and some said they wouldn't)?

 

I do confess I was one of the naysayers.  Now I am going back and rethinking my paltry understanding of General Relativity and star formation.  When I read the proposal for LIGO a bunch of years ago, I would have estimated the chances of even a single detection in my lifetime about a percent.  Now we have four events in two years and even that is an understatement: the instruments are offline much of that time.

 

And that 20-40 solar masses range is just mind-boggling.

 

>? ?With the next observing run planned for Fall 2018 we can expect such detections weekly or even more often.? That would be really cool!  John K Clark 

 

Ja, but even then? what if they do?  How the hell can there be so many of these mergers this far down the road?  I don?t trust anything I thought I knew on the topic.  I am going to apply to my college for a refund.

 

spike

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Sep 28 19:18:36 2017
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 15:18:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] ligo does it again
In-Reply-To: <00b201d33873$2aa865b0$7ff93110$@att.net>
References: <000801d337f7$e02b4be0$a081e3a0$@att.net>
 <CAJPayv1pKZ2H+6OVyOvLUQFAkRJ74v1U5YFCDeknmodfAfiGjw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d33873$2aa865b0$7ff93110$@att.net>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv10933irkdX9Csxykppn+T-551kPE1Ya=SrG=nPPryMxg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:02 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:



> ?>
>> ?> ?
>> ?And how can they be so big?
>
>
>
> ?>?
> I have been going nuts trying to figure that one out too.  There couldn?t
> have been stars that size to start with I wouldn?t think,
>
>
?Today a star would have to start off its life over 150 solar masses to end
up producing a 50 solar mass Black Hole, and there are probably only 3 or 4
stars that big in the entire galaxy; but stars of that size must have been
more common in the first generation of stars because there we no heavier
elements in the cloud that condensed to form the star. Even a small
percentage of heavy elements acts like ink making the gas cloud more opaque
so when a mid sized star forms and starts to shine the light pressure
forces the gas away preventing the star from getting any bigger, but if
there are no heavier elements the cloud is more transparent and so the star
can keep growing. And for the same reason modern large stars lose well over
half their mass due to the solar wind before they die, but the first
generation would retain more of their mass. So I can understand how such
very old stars could produce some 50 solar mass Black Holes, but could they
really produce that many? I have the feeling there is more to the story
that we don't yet understand.

>
>> ?>?
>> ?Nobody predicted that, just a few years ago people were saying if LIGO
>> found anything (and some said they wouldn't)?
>
>
> ?> ?
> I do confess I was one of the naysayers.
>
>
?I thought it was a long shot too?, and the entire project was almost
canceled several times. Astronomers were jealous of the money spent on it
and objected to the "O" in the LIGO name claiming it wasn't a observatory
at all and was just a harebrained physics experiment.  But now most feel if
the LIGO people don't win the Nobel Prize this year there is something
wrong with the Nobel Prize judges.

I'll bet we'll hear more about great stuff found in this observation run in
the next few weeks, t
his latest ?event happened just on
August 14 and it's unusual for the super conservative LIGO people to put
out a paper so soon, I think it's because it involved VIRGO too and the
Italian machine is new and they wanted the word out that it's doing it's
job. It's too bad all 3 detectors were only online at he same time for
about a month.

  John K Clark
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From jordanhh at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 03:09:28 2017
From: jordanhh at gmail.com (Jordan Hosmer-Henner)
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 20:09:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Simulation physics and theology for Qubitzers
Message-ID: <CALoiC50zLnBN5hSyJ5WLm1NcwSUSTPmjBE6ZoQP6otjtjqMrTA@mail.gmail.com>

In contrasting a classical simulation and a quantum simulation, Susskind
writes,

"But there are some big differences.  In the case of the block, the bulk
space really is the three-dimensional volume of the block.  It exists in
ordinary laboratory space.  By contrast, in the case of CFT-supporting
shells, something much more subtle is at work.  The bulk is not part of
ordinary space:  it is not the shell:  it is not the hollow space inside
the shell. These are all part of the lab.  The bulk space is a pure
manifestation of entanglement and complexity."

The philosophical comment in the parent about g-d as being the generator of
the membrane above us, is bleh. But more interesting me to is that the bulk
could be used to for a remote back-up for mind storage because the speed of
light within would be slower.
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From giulio at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 04:53:29 2017
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 06:53:29 +0200
Subject: [ExI] Simulation physics and theology for Qubitzers
In-Reply-To: <CALoiC50zLnBN5hSyJ5WLm1NcwSUSTPmjBE6ZoQP6otjtjqMrTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALoiC50zLnBN5hSyJ5WLm1NcwSUSTPmjBE6ZoQP6otjtjqMrTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyehiQssJKOYHHiorNiJ9v05zsYi1vV5sJV511yo2Q07iA@mail.gmail.com>

I read this passage as a contrast between two types of quantum
simulations - both start with condensed matter in a 3D reality, and
generate two different simulated realities, one 3D and one 4D.

In my analogy God is the intelligent agency that controls the
condensed matter in the base reality,

Interesting idea on using the bulk as a remote back-up for mind
storage. This could happen spontaneously, or be engineered.

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 5:09 AM, Jordan Hosmer-Henner
<jordanhh at gmail.com> wrote:
> In contrasting a classical simulation and a quantum simulation, Susskind
> writes,
>
> "But there are some big differences.  In the case of the block, the bulk
> space really is the three-dimensional volume of the block.  It exists in
> ordinary laboratory space.  By contrast, in the case of CFT-supporting
> shells, something much more subtle is at work.  The bulk is not part of
> ordinary space:  it is not the shell:  it is not the hollow space inside the
> shell. These are all part of the lab.  The bulk space is a pure
> manifestation of entanglement and complexity."
>
> The philosophical comment in the parent about g-d as being the generator of
> the membrane above us, is bleh. But more interesting me to is that the bulk
> could be used to for a remote back-up for mind storage because the speed of
> light within would be slower.
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Sep 29 16:11:13 2017
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 11:11:13 -0500
Subject: [ExI] a little silliness
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbuYFNgPpCO3dRw=KGLr_78LDAFkO2kJwg6K9a7tObXqA@mail.gmail.com>

Actual event:

I put two cartons of Breyer's vanilla in a paper sack and went to the
checkout.  The girl looked down in the sack and said:

"Oh, they are both the same."

And I said "And I think only one of them is the same - but I don't know
which one."

bill w
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From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Sep 30 01:52:55 2017
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 21:52:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] a little silliness
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbuYFNgPpCO3dRw=KGLr_78LDAFkO2kJwg6K9a7tObXqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbuYFNgPpCO3dRw=KGLr_78LDAFkO2kJwg6K9a7tObXqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKmcqk2-8s9Nqc-Ng_pA1h9krb-PG4rq5B5Su7meiMbHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sep 29, 2017 12:42 PM, "William Flynn Wallace" <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

Actual event:

I put two cartons of Breyer's vanilla in a paper sack and went to the
checkout.  The girl looked down in the sack and said:

"Oh, they are both the same."

And I said "And I think only one of them is the same - but I don't know
which one."

bill w


My wife and I went into Applebees tonight. The hostess asked, "2?" I
confirmed, "yes."  She said, "Can I have a name?"  I replied, " 'Diane'; it
says so right there on your nametag."

A nearby waitress started laughing before Diane caught up. :)
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