From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jul 1 23:46:17 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 16:46:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Star Harvesting Message-ID: <686ba6b2d46280326998b4da56ec6022.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> On Sun, July 1, 2018 3:59 pm, The Avantguardian wrote: >?> ?Considering that red dwarfs make up something like 75% of the stars we >> survey, colliding them together to make hotter stars that can accelerate >> faster seems like a more efficient use of available energy. > > > I think it would be better to break up a large star and make several > small stars out of it because small stars are actually more efficient > than large stars. Small stars transport the energy produced in their core > to the surface largely by convection so there is constant mixing of > material into and out of the core, so eventually all the hydrogen fuel in > the star finds its way into the core and gets burned up. But with large > stars the energy transport in mainly by radiation so there is far less > mixing and most of the hydrogen never gets anywhere near to the core. > When a large star comes to the end of its life it still has most of the > hydrogen fuel it was born with but its useless because its not in the > core where its needed. Small stars don't waste any hydrogen they'll > eventually burn it all up but it might take more than a trillion years. > Large stars go supernova and blast up to 90%(in the very largest stars) > of the hydrogen fuel in them into space. Of course this is correct, but how would you propose this could be accomplished? An advanced civilization of about Kardashev 2.5 could conceivably move stars around using a swarm of angled reflectors to vector photons and stellar wind into directional thrust as Spike, Keith, Bradbury, et. al. have discussed on this list. Being able to move stars entails being able to crash them together and fuse them into larger stars because gravity is working in your favor. But it would be orders of magnitude harder to fission a large star into several smaller ones and the EROI is probably not thermodynamically worth it. Also the relatively short lifespan of hot massive stars means that you would not have much time in which to do it. Stuart LaForge? From avant at sollegro.com Mon Jul 2 01:26:33 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 18:26:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Star Harvesting Message-ID: Sorry about the accidental misattribution in the previous copy of this sent out to the list. Because Yahoo has not been playing well with the list server, I sometimes have to do weird things between my various email accounts. John Clark wrote: >?> ?Considering that red dwarfs make up something like 75% of the stars we >> survey, colliding them together to make hotter stars that can accelerate >> faster seems like a more efficient use of available energy. > > > I think it would be better to break up a large star and make several > small stars out of it because small stars are actually more efficient > than large stars. Small stars transport the energy produced in their core > to the surface largely by convection so there is constant mixing of > material into and out of the core, so eventually all the hydrogen fuel in > the star finds its way into the core and gets burned up. But with large > stars the energy transport in mainly by radiation so there is far less > mixing and most of the hydrogen never gets anywhere near to the core. > When a large star comes to the end of its life it still has most of the > hydrogen fuel it was born with but its useless because its not in the > core where its needed. Small stars don't waste any hydrogen they'll > eventually burn it all up but it might take more than a trillion years. > Large stars go supernova and blast up to 90%(in the very largest stars) > of the hydrogen fuel in them into space. Of course this is correct, but how would you propose this could be accomplished? An advanced civilization of about Kardashev 2.5 could conceivably move stars around using a swarm of angled reflectors to vector photons and stellar wind into directional thrust as Spike, Keith, Bradbury, et. al. have discussed on this list. Being able to move stars entails being able to crash them together and fuse them into larger stars because gravity is working in your favor. But it would be orders of magnitude harder to fission a large star into several smaller ones and the EROI is probably not thermodynamically worth it. Also the relatively short lifespan of hot massive stars means that you would not have much time in which to do it. Stuart LaForge? From avant at sollegro.com Mon Jul 2 15:32:33 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:32:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Enceladus Message-ID: <9f74e273dfd266f5aad4be4604c5254b.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Last week was a pretty exciting week for astrobiologists because NASA reported in the journal Nature that the Cassini space probe found complex organic molecules in the geyser plumes of Saturn's ice-moon Enceladus. Specifically the article mentions pyrenes which are multiple aromatic carbon rings bonded together. If Enceladus has sufficient tidally induced volcanism to harbor volcanic vents and liquid water beneath the ice, an entire ecosystem of extremophiles could thrive down there! https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7174 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0246-4 Abstract: Saturn?s moon Enceladus harbours a global water ocean1, which lies under an ice crust and above a rocky core2. Through warm cracks in the crust3 a cryo-volcanic plume ejects ice grains and vapour into space4,5,6,7 that contain materials originating from the ocean8,9. Hydrothermal activity is suspected to occur deep inside the porous core10,11,12, powered by tidal dissipation13. So far, only simple organic compounds with molecular masses mostly below 50 atomic mass units have been observed in plume material6,14,15. Here we report observations of emitted ice grains containing concentrated and complex macromolecular organic material with molecular masses above 200 atomic mass units. The data constrain the macromolecular structure of organics detected in the ice grains and suggest the presence of a thin organic-rich film on top of the oceanic water table, where organic nucleation cores generated by the bursting of bubbles allow the probing of Enceladus? organic inventory in enhanced concentrations. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 16:23:46 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:23:46 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Time travel through extra dimensions in the bulk Message-ID: Time travel through extra dimensions in the bulk String theorists suggest that our universe might be a brane embedded in a higher-dimensional bulk. If so, time travel might be possible... https://turingchurch.net/time-travel-through-extra-dimensions-in-the-bulk-98a09bb98393 From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 17:39:50 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 12:39:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gorillas in the missed - AI and Kahneman Message-ID: Worth your time, I think bill w https://aeon.co/essays/are-humans- really-blind-to-the-gorilla-on-the-basketball-court?utm_source=Aeon+Newsletter&utm_campaign=922e4340d0-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_07_04_11_46&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_411a82e59d-922e4340d0-6899399 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 7 09:26:39 2018 From: jonkc at bellsouth.net (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 02:26:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: <1530955602.bjUHf8CJ9ia6SbjUIfJ9on@mf-smf-ucb033c3> http://agree.earlybirdoutlet.com John Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 15:56:13 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 08:56:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Survival of the Richest- Medium.com Message-ID: "They were amused by my optimism, but they didn?t really buy it. They were not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they?re convinced we are too far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don?t believe they can affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to insulate themselves ? especially if they can?t get a seat on the rocket to Mars. " "Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don?t have to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We can become the individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn?t go it alone." "Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It?s a team sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together." https://medium.com/s/futurehuman/survival-of-the-richest-9ef6cddd0cc1 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 15:58:23 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 08:58:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China breaks quantum entanglement record at 18 qubits Message-ID: "Physicists in China just broke a new record by achieving quantum entanglement with 18 qubits, surpassing the previous record of 10. This significant breakthrough puts us one big step closer to realizing large-scale quantum computing." https://www.zmescience.com/science/news-science/quantum-entanglement-record-0432/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 16:10:45 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 09:10:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Harlan_Ellison=2C_one_of_science_fiction?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_most_controversial_authors=2C_has_died?= Message-ID: I had no idea that he had assaulted my friend Charles Platt.... Wow... "The science fiction genre has lost one of its greatest ? and most controversial ? authors. Harlan Ellison, who wrote and edited groundbreaking sci-fi anthologies, short stories, and television episodes, died at the age of 84, according to his wife." "Ellison was also controversial in the science fiction community, frequently described as abrasive, and involved in numerous lawsuits against studios and directors that he believed plagiarized his work ? including James Cameron for *The Terminator. *(The suit was settled out of court.) He also publicly assaulted author Charles Platt in 1985 at a convention, and in 2006, he sparked controversy by groping Connie Willis while receiving a special Hugo Award." https:// www.theverge.com/2018/6/28/17515214/harlan-ellison-science-fiction-star-trek-author-obituary -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 16:13:03 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 09:13:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] CHINA LAUNCHES 'SPY BIRD' DRONE TO BOOST GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE Message-ID: "Flocks of robotic birds are taking to the skies of China equipped with high-tech surveillance technology, according to a report. The so-called "spy bird" programme, first reported by the *South China Morning Post* , is already in operation in at least five provinces and provides another tendril in the country's already advanced surveillance network." https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/china-spy-bird-drone-government-surveillance-a8415766.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 16:16:30 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 09:16:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] NASA Completes Webb Telescope Review, Commits to Launch in Early 2021 Message-ID: "The Independent Review Board (IRB) established by NASA to assess progress on its James Webb Space Telescope has unanimously recommended that development on the world?s premier science observatory should continue; NASA has established a new launch date for Webb of March 30, 2021." "Webb will be folded, origami-style, for launch inside Arianespace?s Ariane 5 launch vehicle fairing ? about 16 feet (5 meters) wide. After its launch, the observatory will complete an intricate and technically-challenging series of deployments ? one of the most critical parts of Webb?s journey to its final orbit, about one million miles from Earth. When completely unfurled, Webb?s primary mirror will span more than 21 feet (6.5 meters) and its sunshield will be about the size of a tennis court." https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-completes-webb-telescope-review-commits-to-launch-in-early-2021 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jul 7 17:50:16 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 10:50:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Harlan_Ellison=2C_one_of_science_fiction?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_most_controversial_authors=2C_has_died?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008d01d4161a$f7750870$e65f1950$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Harlan Ellison, one of science fiction?s most controversial authors, has died >?I had no idea that he had assaulted my friend Charles Platt.... Wow... Eh? Ellison attacked John Wayne! Unacceptable. I am sorry to see Ellison has passed, but I can?t empathize with criticism of the Duke. He was a good guy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jul 7 18:23:26 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:23:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Harlan_Ellison=2C_one_of_science_fiction?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_most_controversial_authors=2C_has_died?= Message-ID: <00db01d4161f$99766f20$cc634d60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Harlan Ellison, one of science fiction?s most controversial authors, has died >>?I had no idea that he had assaulted my friend Charles Platt.... Wow... >?Eh? Ellison attacked John Wayne! Unacceptable. >?I am sorry to see Ellison has passed, but I can?t empathize with criticism of the Duke. He was a good guy. >?spike I did some searching on this and found that Ellison wrote the Star Trek episode ?City of the Edge of Forever? which is by far my favorite episode of the original series. I don?t like the things he did, but I will cheerfully acknowledge his brilliance. Keith, are you there, me lad? Was Ellison among your many friends? Regarding the business of Ellison?s groping Connie Willis, Isaac Asmov relates a story about an award ceremony where he was on the stage in front of a jillion people, posed for photos when this happened: SCIENCE 103 A charming young woman, not quite five feet tall, made the presenta- tion and in simple gratitude I placed my arm about her waist. Owing to her unusually short height, however, I didn?t manage to get low enough and the result brought laughter from the audience. Trying to dismiss this embarrassing faux pas (though I must admit that neither of us budged) I said, ?I?m sorry, folks. That?s just the Asimov grip.?? And from the audience, Ben Bova (who, it seems appropriate to say in this particular connection, is my bosom buddy) called out, ?Is that anything like the swine flu?? I was wiped out, and what does one do when one has been wiped out by a beloved pal? Why, one turns about and proceeds to try to wipe out some other beloved pal. ? In this case, Arthur C. Clarke. This is from a 1977 edition of Fact and Science Fiction, which I read at every opportunity in my misspent youth, not for the fiction but for Asimov?s non-fiction essay in every issue. Note that I am not suggesting that Ellison?s pawing of Willis was accidental, even though I accept Asimov?s explanation. Just saying: people who are giants of creativity are not necessarily good at everything. Anyone who has attended a gathering of really smart people know that such meetings are sometimes socially awkward (with the term ?sometimes? defined as always) as the participants seem to compete to out-geek each other. This is a good thing if one is socially awkward oneself: one feels comfortable among those similarly afflicted. It is most entertaining when one brings a normal mate to such gatherings, just to watch the normal one?s horrified expressions at the things we do and say. The Hako Sote episode at my house is still urban legend in my neighborhood. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Jul 7 18:44:16 2018 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 19:44:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B410A00.2020304@zaiboc.net> Spike wrote: >If we can make some kind of human-like consciousness with a milligram of material (thirty billion billion atoms) then we could have a hundred thousand human-like things for every one of us using just the mass currently used up as part of an existing human. More like 75 million. Most humans don't weigh 100 grams. I'm pretty sure Anders doesn't. Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jul 7 20:13:46 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 13:13:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Anders Sandberg In-Reply-To: <5B410A00.2020304@zaiboc.net> References: <5B410A00.2020304@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <001e01d4162f$037d6310$0a782930$@rainier66.com> Eh, what's three orders of magnitude among friends? -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2018 11:44 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [ExI] Anders Sandberg Spike wrote: >If we can make some kind of human-like consciousness with a milligram of material (thirty billion billion atoms) then we could have a hundred thousand human-like things for every one of us using just the mass currently used up as part of an existing human. More like 75 million. Most humans don't weigh 100 grams. I'm pretty sure Anders doesn't. Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Eh, what's three orders of magnitude among friends? Good catch Ben. It strengthens my notion, in two ways. One is the mega-zotta-Anders business, and the other is that the MKS system has a flaw we should never have allowed. The fundamental unit of mass needs a prefix, the kilogram. In the everyday world at our scale, we think in terms of seconds, meters and kilograms. We should have named the kg the gram. Then our food energy system wouldn't be messed up, with kilocalories being called calories. I suppose it is too late to change it now. But... if we manage to upload into a milligram of material, we can then come up with new words for a nanogram and make that our fundamental unit: the nam. A nanometer would be a neter, and microsecond would be the mecond (because stuff happens fast at that scale.) spike From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 11:09:39 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 12:09:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <1530955602.bjUHf8CJ9ia6SbjUIfJ9on@mf-smf-ucb033c3> References: <1530955602.bjUHf8CJ9ia6SbjUIfJ9on@mf-smf-ucb033c3> Message-ID: WARNING! This appears to be using an old John Clark address and links to a Spam / Phishing website. BillK On 7 July 2018 at 10:26, John Clark wrote: > http://agree.earlybirdoutlet.com > > > > > > John Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jul 8 05:29:55 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 22:29:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Harlan_Ellison=2C_one_of_science_fiction?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_most_controversial_authors=2C_has_died?= Message-ID: <008801d4167c$b501d920$1f058b60$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?I did some searching on this and found that Ellison wrote the Star Trek episode ?City of the Edge of Forever? which is by far my favorite episode of the original series. I don?t like the things he did, but I will cheerfully acknowledge his brilliance?spike At a party this evening, we viewed City on the Edge of Forever. I read up on some of the circumstances behind that episode. Ellison?s script called for runes. There was a misunderstanding. The set people thought he wanted ruins. So they built a set with ruins. But by the time the error was discovered, they already had blown their budget, so they patched the script to (sorta) accommodate ruins, which made no sense, there in the presence of a godlike machine or being (both and neither) but hey, runes, ruins, whatevs, right? So that was an odd flaw in an otherwise interesting story. Being a time-traveler script, it was filled with all the logical paradoxes characteristic of the genre. Ellison was really pissed about the set people building ruins instead of runes, and disowned the script. He and Roddenberry got into a huge blowup over it because Roddenberry needed to stay on budget and Ellison thought (correctly) that the story made not a damn bit of sense with these stupid cheesy ruins where there should be runes. I clearly see both sides now. If we have any hardcore Star Trek original series gurus still among us, please: in that scene where Bones first appears (after Kirk and Spock were already down there) he comes upon a hobo who was stealing a bottle of milk. McCoy is stoned on a huge overdose of cordrazine and conks out. The hobo takes the doctor?s transporter and beams himself to? somewhere. They don?t tell us where. Do they have a later episode where they discover they need to take the hobo back to 1930 in order to not mess up the 23rd century? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jul 8 17:25:33 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:25:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Survival of the Richest Message-ID: John Grigg wrote: > "They were amused by my optimism, but they didn?t really buy it. They were > not interested in how to avoid a calamity; they?re convinced we are too > far gone. For all their wealth and power, they don?t believe they can > affect the future. They are simply accepting the darkest of all scenarios > and then bringing whatever money and technology they can employ to > insulate themselves???especially if they can?t get a seat on the rocket > to Mars." LOL, if Douglas Rushkoff is telling the truth here, then the hedge fund managers are trying to figure out a way to "short" humanity's future. I think they are assholes for doing so. But why lump them together with Musk and Kurzweil for crying out loud? Is Kurzweil even that rich? What I dislike most about financiers are that they wield so much power with so little purpose and zero sense of responsibility. Making money for the sole purpose of making more money without generating any other value. The ideology of cancer. May they fail their margin call. " "Luckily, those of us without the funding to consider disowning > our own humanity have much better options available to us. We don?t have > to use technology in such antisocial, atomizing ways. We don't have to, but a large number of us none-the-less do. Anybody using social media for example is consenting to be pigeon-holed into an echo-chamber with like-minded people instead of being connected to the world at large. The global village is composed of countless factions that refuse to talk to one another. > We can become the > individual consumers and profiles that our devices and platforms want us > to be, or we can remember that the truly evolved human doesn?t go it > alone." Is this guy truly unaware of the Malthusian trap looming on the horizon? Or is he is one of those socialists who would burn the lifeboats on a sinking ship if there weren't enough to go around? Humanity is a moving target and it will be the survivors who get to decide what being human means. And humanity can't evolve if society subsidizes the survival of all for simple virtue of being born or more ridiculously yet -- conceived. Cheap oil kind of let us get away with this for almost a century but if this guy thinks it is a sustainable state of the world, then he is out of touch with reality. > "Being human is not about individual survival or escape. It?s a team > sport. Whatever future humans have, it will be together." This guy seems to foolishly think that we are all supposed to be on the same team. The irony is that it is his brand of global neoliberalism that has brought the world to our current straits. The progressive insistence that every country should be equivalently developed and monetized. Like somehow it would be good for the global economy if the everyone on the planet ate Big Macs and drove SUVs. Death by homogeneity . . . of the middle class at least. But he is right about one thing. There is no escape for the rich. Mars will be no greater advantage to the rich surviving the fall of our civilization than the island of Capri was to the Roman Emperors surviving the fall of theirs. Therefore I sincerely hope at least some of them have the sense to take the long bet on humanity. Stuart LaForge "We speak for Earth. Our obligation to survive is owed not just to ourselves but also to that Cosmos, ancient and vast, from which we spring." - Carl Sagan From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 18:20:46 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:20:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] software versus human rights? Message-ID: I see in the paper today where the police has used software to home in on the places in their area where the most crimes are committed (there are more variables than that). They are being sued. The argument is that if the police focus on the areas where most crime occurs, one of which is where black gangs live, then the imbalance in arresting minorities will stay the same or even worsen. Is this the same as giving Arabs a closer look, say at airports, because the 9/11 terrorists were Arab? I don't think so. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 19:13:21 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:13:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Harlan Ellison Message-ID: Spike wrote "Keith, are you there, me lad? Was Ellison among your many friends?" No. We moved in different circles. I met him once, at the 1978 WorldCon. Harlan surprised me by knowing who I was. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jul 8 19:39:16 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:39:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Harlan Ellison In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003401d416f3$5b9ce560$12d6b020$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson >>..."Keith, are you there, me lad? Was Ellison among your many friends?" spike >...No. We moved in different circles. >...I met him once, at the 1978 WorldCon. Harlan surprised me by knowing who I was. >...Keith _______________________________________________ Keith in the circles in which you move and many concentric circles, most know who you are. I gave up SciFi in my misspent youth after having had my mind opened by Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke and others. Ellison was back there but wasn't one of my biggest influences. I did like that Star Trek episode however, and it really brought home to me the advantage of writing for a character set which has already been developed. In any SciFi or other fiction, the job of character development is almost overhead: it takes a lot of verbiage just to set the stage, to prepare to tell the story. When Star Trek came along, all that was done, so it became an excellent vehicle to tell SciFi stories. It allowed the writer to get right to the point: Spock was already the caricature scientist, Kirk was already the horndog, etc. Star Trek was cranking out 30 episodes a year, which led to the situation which caused Roddenberry and Ellison to hate each other. A mistake was made, the guy trying to crank out an episode a week on a tight budget chose to patch it, the temperamental artist wanted to start over and do it right. That narrative puts a new light on things, since most of the press has been what an ass Ellison was. Now I hafta see both points of view, recognize Roddenberry had to do what he had to do (since he was running a business in a sense) and Ellison shouldn't write for television. spike From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 19:50:30 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:50:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] software versus human rights? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Depends on the variables used. If it's just "where are the crimes", then the lawsuit will likely fail: this is data that's legit in the purview of law enforcement, and isn't inherently racist even if it would result in more people of color going to jail. On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 11:20 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I see in the paper today where the police has used software to home in on > the places in their area where the most crimes are committed (there are more > variables than that). > > They are being sued. The argument is that if the police focus on the areas > where most crime occurs, one of which is where black gangs live, then the > imbalance in arresting minorities will stay the same or even worsen. > > Is this the same as giving Arabs a closer look, say at airports, because the > 9/11 terrorists were Arab? I don't think so. > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jul 8 20:04:45 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 13:04:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] software versus human rights? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601d416f6$eb56d7d0$c2048770$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2018 12:51 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] software versus human rights? >...Depends on the variables used. If it's just "where are the crimes", then the lawsuit will likely fail: this is data that's legit in the purview of law enforcement, and isn't inherently racist even if it would result in more people of color going to jail. On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 11:20 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>... I see in the paper today where the police has used software to home in > on the places in their area where the most crimes are committed (there > are more variables than that). > > They are being sued. The argument is that if the police focus on the > areas where most crime occurs, one of which is where black gangs live, > then the imbalance in arresting minorities will stay the same or even worsen. > > Is this the same as giving Arabs a closer look, say at airports, > because the > 9/11 terrorists were Arab? I don't think so. > > bill w Another way to look at it: the constabulary hangs around the gangy neighborhoods where the crime is happening, apprehends, convicts and incarcerates the bad element, leaving the good element to enjoy differential reproduction, resulting in a safer better neighborhood. Problem solved. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 20:14:11 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 15:14:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Harlan Ellison In-Reply-To: <003401d416f3$5b9ce560$12d6b020$@rainier66.com> References: <003401d416f3$5b9ce560$12d6b020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > > ?spike wrote:? > > > I gave up SciFi in my misspent youth after having had my mind opened by > Isaac Asimov, Arthur C. Clarke and others. ?The book that woke me up from thinking Asimov, Heinlein, and Clark were the only good writers: Dangerous Visions - edited by Ellison. That also introduced me to Philip Jose' Farmer. I think DV was one of the best-selling collections of all time bill w? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 21:18:51 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 14:18:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] software versus human rights? In-Reply-To: <003601d416f6$eb56d7d0$c2048770$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d416f6$eb56d7d0$c2048770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 1:04 PM, wrote: > Another way to look at it: the constabulary hangs around the gangy > neighborhoods where the crime is happening, apprehends, convicts and > incarcerates the bad element, leaving the good element to enjoy differential > reproduction, resulting in a safer better neighborhood. Part of the complaint is that they don't target just the bad element. People get convicted and incarcerated wherever the constabulary hangs out, and a significant fraction of said people are in fact innocent. Also, the methods the constabulary employs allegedly prevent many of those around them who are not arrested from becoming (and raising) the good element. See for example: complaints about black people being shot for following officers' instructions. ("You told him to reach for his wallet, then when he did so you yelled about him reaching for a gun. You did all this with gun drawn and pointed at him, so it took only a moment's panic to squeeze the trigger. Having weapon drawn, let alone pointed at the detainee, for an ordinary traffic stop is in blatant violation of police procedure, but you did it anyway with no consequence to you - making the official procedure irrelevant - until the day you fired, and it appears as if you only did it to black people you pulled over.") From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 21:39:50 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:39:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] software versus human rights? In-Reply-To: References: <003601d416f6$eb56d7d0$c2048770$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: see below On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 1:04 PM, wrote: > > Another way to look at it: the constabulary hangs around the gangy > > neighborhoods where the crime is happening, apprehends, convicts and > > incarcerates the bad element, leaving the good element to enjoy > differential > > reproduction, resulting in a safer better neighborhood. > > Part of the complaint is that they don't target just the bad element. > People get convicted and incarcerated wherever the constabulary hangs > out, and a significant fraction of said people are in fact innocent. > > Also, the methods the constabulary employs allegedly prevent many of > those around them who are not arrested from becoming (and raising) the > good element. See for example: complaints about black people being > shot for following officers' instructions. ("You told him to reach > for his wallet, then when he did so you yelled about him reaching for > a gun. You did all this with gun drawn and pointed at him, so it took > only a moment's panic to squeeze the trigger. Having weapon drawn, > let alone pointed at the detainee, for an ordinary traffic stop is in > blatant violation of police procedure, but you did it anyway with no > consequence to you - making the official procedure irrelevant - until > the day you fired, and it appears as if you only did it to black > people you pulled over > ?. > ?From my perspective, the problem with police acting like the one above is fear, not aggression. Studies of black and white school kids show that both black and white kids fear black faces (men) more than white ones. And around here, central MS, blacks do commit more crimes, esp. shooting ones. And they carry weapons. Few enter the cop station with weapons. Living in the communities that they do, that is understandable, and cops know this. So a white cop is faced with a black subject and the fear starts. It's even worse when the cop is in a car and chasing the subject. Then the excitement of the chase adds some anger to the fear and the fear increases because a lot of chases involve hitting other cars, and cops do die from those, two recently here. So when the subject is stopped they tend to get over-arrested? in the sense of more aggression towards the subject than when no chase occurs. Fear will override police procedure and even the cameras the cops wear. Remember Rodney King? They were so mad at him they beat him while he was face down on the ground. bill w > ? > _________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 12:39:59 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 07:39:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto Message-ID: Perhaps somewhat tangential to many of the things currently discussed on the list, but has anyone ready the book "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto? An overly abbreviated premise of the book is that compulsory K-12 education basically removes humanity from people, destroys the family, and obliterates all meaningful community. The solution is homeschooling (?) and/or the radical reduction of structured schooling to only include "The Three R's" so to speak, after a child shows an interest in learning them. Does anyone have any thoughts of this book? As much as Mr. Gatto claims that schools instill anti-intellectualism in children, his repeated digs at evolution, and his seeming worship of a horrifically polluted river he grew up near, combined with his theories that public schooling is the only reason we need modern medicine, seem to me to be equally anti-intellectual. It's a short book which I found while house-sitting for my cousin. It's the first book in quite a few years which has made me feel irrationally angry. Perhaps I have just misunderstood some central argument or opinion which would make the whole thing more tolerable. From spike at rainier66.com Mon Jul 9 13:51:04 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 06:51:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000f01d4178b$e1e8f260$a5bad720$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto >...Perhaps somewhat tangential to many of the things currently discussed on the list, but has anyone ready the book "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto? >...An overly abbreviated premise of the book is that compulsory K-12 education basically removes humanity from people, destroys the family, and obliterates all meaningful community... _______________________________________________ Into the bit-bucket with it. Public education certainly has its shortcomings, but the modern message is more subtle and urgent. We have long been hearing of an achievement gap in students. Rather than the usual scenario many think of with the gap being between socio-economic classes, we are facing the formation of the biggest achievement gap in all of modern history, this being between those who effectively use the free online materials and those who do not. The public schools are not yet on board with this notion. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 14:48:44 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:48:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ballard wrote:the radical reduction of structured schooling to only include "The Three R's" so to speak, after a child shows an interest in learning them. ------- This is outright laughable. It puts all the motivation on the kids. Think that will work? And after having gone through 26 years of education, the idea that there are a lot more geniuses out there is also ridiculous. If a kid is a genius he will find out for himself and go where his mind tells him to go irrespective of school. There may be some really good points in the book, which I will not read, but these two aren't. bill w On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 7:39 AM, SR Ballard wrote: > Perhaps somewhat tangential to many of the things currently discussed > on the list, but has anyone ready the book "Dumbing Us Down" by John > Taylor Gatto? > > An overly abbreviated premise of the book is that compulsory K-12 > education basically removes humanity from people, destroys the family, > and obliterates all meaningful community. The solution is > homeschooling (?) and/or the radical reduction of structured schooling > to only include "The Three R's" so to speak, after a child shows an > interest in learning them. > > Does anyone have any thoughts of this book? As much as Mr. Gatto > claims that schools instill anti-intellectualism in children, his > repeated digs at evolution, and his seeming worship of a horrifically > polluted river he grew up near, combined with his theories that public > schooling is the only reason we need modern medicine, seem to me to be > equally anti-intellectual. > > It's a short book which I found while house-sitting for my cousin. > It's the first book in quite a few years which has made me feel > irrationally angry. Perhaps I have just misunderstood some central > argument or opinion which would make the whole thing more tolerable. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 19:14:48 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:14:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018, 7:51 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > There may be some really good points in the book, which I will not read, > but these two aren't. > I doubt there are, if the central tenet is the promotion of homeschooling instead of public education. That requires all parents to be above average educators, which most are not by definition. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 19:36:31 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:36:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:18 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I doubt there are, if the central tenet is the promotion of homeschooling > instead of public education. That requires all parents to be above average > educators, which most are not by definition. > Not necessarily. The additional personal attention that homeschooling provides may compensate for a lot of inexperience/inability. And parents have the flexibility to choose better materials than public schools. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 19:54:17 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:54:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2018, at 5:39 AM, SR Ballard wrote: > Perhaps somewhat tangential to many of the things currently discussed > on the list, but has anyone ready the book "Dumbing Us Down" by John > Taylor Gatto? > > An overly abbreviated premise of the book is that compulsory K-12 > education basically removes humanity from people, destroys the family, > and obliterates all meaningful community. The solution is > homeschooling (?) and/or the radical reduction of structured schooling > to only include "The Three R's" so to speak, after a child shows an > interest in learning them. > > Does anyone have any thoughts of this book? As much as Mr. Gatto > claims that schools instill anti-intellectualism in children, his > repeated digs at evolution, and his seeming worship of a horrifically > polluted river he grew up near, combined with his theories that public > schooling is the only reason we need modern medicine, seem to me to be > equally anti-intellectual. > > It's a short book which I found while house-sitting for my cousin. > It's the first book in quite a few years which has made me feel > irrationally angry. Perhaps I have just misunderstood some central > argument or opinion which would make the whole thing more tolerable. Maybe you might sublimate your anger into a longer review essay... By the way, what about this book: https://press.princeton.edu/titles/11225.html Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 19:57:56 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:57:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: <000f01d4178b$e1e8f260$a5bad720$@rainier66.com> References: <000f01d4178b$e1e8f260$a5bad720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Jul 9, 2018, at 6:51 AM, wrote: > > Into the bit-bucket with it. > > Public education certainly has its shortcomings, but the modern message is > more subtle and urgent. We have long been hearing of an achievement gap in > students. Rather than the usual scenario many think of with the gap being > between socio-economic classes, we are facing the formation of the biggest > achievement gap in all of modern history, this being between those who > effectively use the free online materials and those who do not. The public > schools are not yet on board with this notion. That?s a good point. I think there?s perhaps a minimum one needs to be able to use these materials, but I believe most people are already above that minimum if they know how to get online. (And I don?t much more than just getting online. You don?t have a hotshot programmer to access videos on math or piano or Mandarin or ancient civilizations. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst From eh at edwardhaigh.com Mon Jul 9 20:25:44 2018 From: eh at edwardhaigh.com (Edward Haigh) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:25:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "The Case against Education" by Bryan Caplan has a similar argument that schooling should stop after the Three R's, but this education would still be state led and compulsory. Most of his arguments are based on human capital vs human signalling (e.g, would you rather hire someone who has a degree from Berkeley but didn't really bother with learning, or someone without a degree but attended Berkeleys lectures for free for four years). He also argues that the amount of stuff people forget from when they leave school is so large that we may as well not bother teaching them in the first place. Based mainly on results of surveys of Americans being asked basic maths and history questions - such as on the civil war. I think he is a bit too extreme with how far he takes his argument but I do recommend his book. - Ed On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:54 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Jul 9, 2018, at 5:39 AM, SR Ballard wrote: > > Perhaps somewhat tangential to many of the things currently discussed > on the list, but has anyone ready the book "Dumbing Us Down" by John > Taylor Gatto? > > An overly abbreviated premise of the book is that compulsory K-12 > education basically removes humanity from people, destroys the family, > and obliterates all meaningful community. The solution is > homeschooling (?) and/or the radical reduction of structured schooling > to only include "The Three R's" so to speak, after a child shows an > interest in learning them. > > Does anyone have any thoughts of this book? As much as Mr. Gatto > claims that schools instill anti-intellectualism in children, his > repeated digs at evolution, and his seeming worship of a horrifically > polluted river he grew up near, combined with his theories that public > schooling is the only reason we need modern medicine, seem to me to be > equally anti-intellectual. > > It's a short book which I found while house-sitting for my cousin. > It's the first book in quite a few years which has made me feel > irrationally angry. Perhaps I have just misunderstood some central > argument or opinion which would make the whole thing more tolerable. > > > Maybe you might sublimate your anger into a longer review essay... By the > way, what about this book: > > https://press.princeton.edu/titles/11225.html > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 20:37:00 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:37:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25CAB8F2-9DC4-45C5-8D87-E32B18054628@gmail.com> On Jul 9, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Edward Haigh wrote: > > "The Case against Education" by Bryan Caplan has a similar argument that schooling should stop after the Three R's, but this education would still be state led and compulsory. > > Most of his arguments are based on human capital vs human signalling (e.g, would you rather hire someone who has a degree from Berkeley but didn't really bother with learning, or someone without a degree but attended Berkeleys lectures for free for four years). > > He also argues that the amount of stuff people forget from when they leave school is so large that we may as well not bother teaching them in the first place. Based mainly on results of surveys of Americans being asked basic maths and history questions - such as on the civil war. > > I think he is a bit too extreme with how far he takes his argument but I do recommend his book. Thanks! I hope to read Caplan?s book soon. I?ve heard an interview with him where he made a good consequentialist case IMO. Of course, it wasn?t a debate. (I believe he homeschools too, but he and his wife are obviously not your average couple in terms of educational and intellectual background.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 21:16:21 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:16:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 2:54 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Maybe you might sublimate your anger into a longer review essay... By the > way, what about this book: > > https://press.princeton.edu/titles/11225.html > > Regards, > > Dan After I have calmed down a bit, I do intend to write a proper response to the book in long-form. The book asserts many things without any evidence and in fact uses many of the devices which it decries. It in my opinion ignores a lot of factors and does not present clear enough solutions when you consider the urgent tone it was written in. From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 21:54:22 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:54:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] "Dumbing Us Down" by John Taylor Gatto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not necessarily. The additional personal attention that homeschooling provides may compensate for a lot of inexperience/inability. And parents have the flexibility to choose better materials than public schools. -Dave One - As a long time teacher I can tell you that teaching something and knowing a lot about it are two different things. (several pages omitted on my views of teaching) Many adults are not familiar with the way math, for one, is taught nowadays, and learning along with the student is not an efficient use of time. Two- I suspect that the below average family has no one available several hours of the day to teach a child and no money for daycare. bill w On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:18 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> >> I doubt there are, if the central tenet is the promotion of homeschooling >> instead of public education. That requires all parents to be above average >> educators, which most are not by definition. >> > > Not necessarily. The additional personal attention that homeschooling > provides may compensate for a lot of inexperience/inability. And parents > have the flexibility to choose better materials than public schools. > > -Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 00:25:29 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 17:25:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Tarot Message-ID: What do you think? From Tumblr...... Updated Major Arcana for Transhumanist Tarot (out of order, sorry) The Fool ? Genus Homo The Sun ? Dyson Sphere The Hanged Man ? The Astronaut The World ? Orbit The Devil ? Moloch The Tower ? Superintelligence Death ? The Dragon Tyrant OR The Singularity (I CAN?T CHOOSE ARGH) The Moon ? The Moon Landing The High Priestess ? Lady Cyborg/Catgirl The Hierophant ? The Futurist The Lovers ? The Polycule Judgement ? Roko?s Basilisk The Emperor ?Azathoth The Emperess ? Elua Strength ? Strength (w/prosthetics or exoskeleton) Temperence ? Nootropics The Star ? Mars The Magician ? The Scientist The Chariot ? Cryonics The Hermit ? The Hacker Justice ? Effective Altruism Wheel of Fortune ? Futures Wheel http://sadstracted.tumblr.com/post/169797466781/updated-major-arcana-for-transhumanist-tarot -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 00:45:07 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:45:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Tarot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Quite cute I think. On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 7:25 PM, John Grigg wrote: > What do you think? From Tumblr...... > > Updated Major Arcana for Transhumanist Tarot > > (out of order, sorry) > > The Fool ? Genus Homo > The Sun ? Dyson Sphere > The Hanged Man ? The Astronaut > The World ? Orbit > The Devil ? Moloch > The Tower ? Superintelligence > Death ? The Dragon Tyrant OR The Singularity (I CAN?T CHOOSE ARGH) > The Moon ? The Moon Landing > The High Priestess ? Lady Cyborg/Catgirl > The Hierophant ? The Futurist > The Lovers ? The Polycule > Judgement ? Roko?s Basilisk > The Emperor ?Azathoth > The Emperess ? Elua > Strength ? Strength (w/prosthetics or exoskeleton) > Temperence ? Nootropics > The Star ? Mars > The Magician ? The Scientist > The Chariot ? Cryonics > The Hermit ? The Hacker > Justice ? Effective Altruism > Wheel of Fortune ? Futures Wheel > > http://sadstracted.tumblr.com/post/169797466781/updated-major-arcana-for-transhumanist-tarot > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:47:45 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:47:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion Message-ID: "The paper, "Securing Fuel for our Frigid Cosmic Future", recently appeared online. As he indicates in his study, when the Universe is ten times its current age (roughly 138 billion years old), all stars outside the Local Group of galaxies will no be accessible to us since they will be receding away faster than the speed of light. For this reason, he recommends that humanity follow the lesson from Aesop's fable, "The Ants and the Grasshopper". "Dr. Loeb also indicated where humanity (or other advanced civilizations) should consider relocating to when the expansion of the Universe causes the stars of the Local Group to expand beyond the cosmic horizon. Within 50 million light years, he indicates, likes the Virgo Cluster, which contains about a thousands times more matter than the Milky Way Galaxy. The second closest is the Coma Cluster, a collection of over 1000 galaxies located about 336 million light years away." Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-06-tools-humanity-year-trillion.html#jCp https://phys.org/news/2018-06-tools-humanity-year-trillion.html#jCp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:51:18 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:51:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thank Your Lucky Stars Amazon Saved The Expanse, Because Its Third Season Was Stellar Message-ID: "This kind of storytelling may ultimately not have won the audience that the series needed to stay on SyFy, or to compete with other current genre shows with Very Big Ideas, but it did at least win the confidence of Amazon, which picked it up for a fourth season after its cancelation. This is a loss for cable TV, but a win for the cast and crew on the show?and it?s validation of the kind of storytelling *The Expanse* has been interested in from the beginning. After all, streaming is where the team always saw this going: As series co-creator Mark Fergus noted (prophetically!) in our interview with him , ?The show lives on beyond broadcast. When the show is said and done, people will watch it in a linear, streamed kind of way, or they?ll binge it or whatever. It will be a straight line, so you can?t really worry about the season enders and the rhythm of the show, at least in terms of the big pauses in between. If you look at it as a big book, by the end of it, it?s five seasons?or seven seasons, or whatever we get?and it?s one big, long story.? "And given Holden?s portentous monologue to holograph-ghost Miller at the end of tonight?s finale, a monologue that caught hold not just of the big sci-fi protomolecule story but all the internecine human misery and striving those sci-fi threads weave in and out of, that big long story is one I can?t wait to keep watching." https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2018/06/thank-goodness-amazon-saved-the-expanse-because-it.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 07:56:47 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:56:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Psychedelics Are Going Mainstream, Because the Mainstream Needs Them Message-ID: "Enter psychedelics. In the past several years, the use of substances like MDMA, psilocybin, ibogaine and ayahuasca in treating the root of myriad health issues has become a white hot topic, with outlets from*The Wall Street Journal* to *Stars and Stripes* covering the so-called psychedelic revolution. In last year?s *A Really Good Day: **How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life* * , *Ayelet Waldman explored the benefits of ingesting tiny amounts of LSD. Michael Pollan?s new book *How to Change Your Mind: **What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us about Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence* looks at the emerging science of psychedelics. Once considered the realm of kooks, burnouts and that one ex boyfriend who spent a chunk of his 20s following Widespread Panic, psychedelics have hit the mainstream, because, as Carlin, Lourido Ali and many MAPS researchers argue, the mainstream desperately needs them. " ?People are seeking meaning, purpose, personal growth, development, mindfulness and expansion, and there?s also a huge desire to heal,? says Carlin. ?With psychedelics, we can sometimes borrow the courage to look at parts of ourselves we don't want to consider because they're not pretty. Psychedelics can also give us the inspiration to embody love and to celebrate. Humans need celebration.? https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bj3ezm/psychedelics-are-going-mainstream-because-the-mainstream-needs-them -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 08:10:32 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 01:10:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_Hackers_Aren=E2=80=99t_Afraid_of_Us?= Message-ID: "Yet in this arms race, the United States has often been its own worst enemy. Because our government has been so incompetent at protecting its highly sophisticated cyberweapons, those weapons have been stolen out of the electronic vaults of the National Security Agency and the C.I.A. and shot right back at us. That?s what happened with the WannaCry ransomware attack by North Korea last year, which used some of the sophisticated tools the N.S.A. had developed. No wonder the agency has refused to admit that the weapons were made in America: It raised the game of its attackers. " "Nuclear weapons are still the ultimate currency of national power, as the meeting between President Trump and Kim Jong-un in Singapore last week showed. But they cannot be used without causing the end of human civilization ? or at least of a regime. So it?s no surprise that hackers working for North Korea, Iran?s mullahs, Vladimir V. Putin in Russia and the People?s Liberation Army of China have all learned that the great advantage of cyberweapons is that they are the *opposite* of a nuke: hard to detect, easy to deny and increasingly finely targeted. And therefore, extraordinarily hard to deter. " https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/sunday-review/why-hackers-arent-afraid-of-us.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:25:11 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_Hackers_Aren=E2=80=99t_Afraid_of_Us?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OF COURSE hackers don't take the US seriously? Why should they? The US government takes no efforts (as far as I can tell) to encourage, recruit, and train good talent the way NK does. North Korean children are assessed early in their education for Math proficiencies and funneled into computer educations. The North Korean defector familiar with the country?s cyber training says > he received such training, and describes intense preparation for annual > ?hackathon? competitions in Pyongyang, in which teams of students holed up > learning to solve puzzles and hacking problems under severe time pressure. > > ?For six months, day and night, we prepared only for this contest,? he > says. He recalls going home for a meal after an all-night prep session only > to wake up with his head resting in his bowl of soup. ?It was everyone?s > dream to be a part of it.? Some trainees are sent overseas to master foreign languages or to > participate in international hackathons in places such as India or China, > where they compete against coders from around the world. At a 2015 global > competition called CodeChef, run by an Indian software company, *North > Korean teams ranked first, second and third out of more than 7,600 > world-wide*. Three of the top 15 coders in CodeChef?s network of about > 100,000 participants are North Korean. Since hackers are treated well by the Government, I'm sure that parents encourage their children to apply themselves to their studies. Defectors and South Korea cyber experts say hacker trainees recruited by > North Korea?s government get roomy Pyongyang apartments and exemptions from > mandatory military service. There are also numerous other benefits and incouragements that North Koreans receive. North Koreans have also been taking the internet seriously far longer than the United States. North Korea?s hacking program dates at least to *the mid-1990s*, when > then-leader Kim Jong Il said that ?all wars in future years will be > computer wars.? According to "The Good American" a documentary which I recently watched, it seems the NSA wasn't even fully digital until after 9/11. They were still relying on old analog methods. While its earlier attacks used well-known tools and familiar coding, > Pyongyang tried to learn from better hackers abroad, says Simon Choi, > a cybersecurity consultant to South Korea?s government who tracks online > behavior. North Korean-linked accounts on Facebook and Twitter began > following famous Chinese hackers and marked ?like? on pages of how-to books > outlining how to make malicious code for mobile devices, he says. Some > North Koreans registered for online courses offered in South Korea teaching > people how to hack smartphones, he says. > McAfee said it took suspected North Korean cyberwarriors *just seven days > in December to discover and use Invoke-PSImag*e, a new > open-source hacking tool, to target groups involved in the Winter Olympics. > McAfee said hackers used the tool to custom-build a malware download that > was invisible to most antivirus software and hid malicious files in an > image attached to a Word document. Quotes from WSJ article, "How North Korea's Hackers became dangerously good" https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-north-koreas-hackers-became-dangerously-good-1524150416 On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:10 AM, John Grigg wrote: > "Yet in this arms race, the United States has often been its own worst > enemy. Because our government has been so incompetent at protecting its > highly sophisticated cyberweapons, those weapons have been stolen out of the > electronic vaults of the National Security Agency and the C.I.A. and shot > right back at us. That?s what happened with the WannaCry ransomware attack > by North Korea last year, which used some of the sophisticated tools the > N.S.A. had developed. No wonder the agency has refused to admit that the > weapons were made in America: It raised the game of its attackers. " > > "Nuclear weapons are still the ultimate currency of national power, as the > meeting between President Trump and Kim Jong-un in Singapore last week > showed. But they cannot be used without causing the end of human > civilization ? or at least of a regime. So it?s no surprise that hackers > working for North Korea, Iran?s mullahs, Vladimir V. Putin in Russia and the > People?s Liberation Army of China have all learned that the great advantage > of cyberweapons is that they are the opposite of a nuke: hard to detect, > easy to deny and increasingly finely targeted. And therefore, > extraordinarily hard to deter. " > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/16/sunday-review/why-hackers-arent-afraid-of-us.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:47:59 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 04:47:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not wanting to be the ignorant one here, but how can an object with mass travel faster than the speed of light? Did I miss some big science news? I thought maybe the interpretation by the reporter was incorrect, but the quote is straight from the paper itself. The accelerated expansion of the Universe pushes resources away from us at > an evergrowing speed. Once the Universe will age by a factor of ten, all > stars outside our Local Group of galaxies will not be accessible to us as *they > will be receding away faster than light*. Is there something we can do to > avoid this cosmic fate? After poking around the internet for a while, it seems that these galaxies are "moving" faster than light not because they actually exceed the speed of light in any way, but rather because space is expanding between them and us at a rate faster than the speed of light. So it is not the matter or energy which is exceeding the speed of light, but rather the "medium" (space-time) is expanding in such a way that we are being separated at a speed which exceeds the speed of light. So technically, the speed of light is not "broken" in any way. I think of most of you on the list as being much smarter than myself. Do I get the gist of it? Or can someone explain it to me more clearly or point me to good resourses? I really should get a Maths degree. On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 2:47 AM, John Grigg wrote: > "The paper, "Securing Fuel for our Frigid Cosmic Future", recently > appeared online. As he indicates in his study, when the Universe is ten > times its current age (roughly 138 billion years old), all stars outside > the Local Group of galaxies will no be accessible to us since they will be > receding away faster than the speed of light. For this reason, he > recommends that humanity follow the lesson from Aesop's fable, "The Ants > and the Grasshopper". > > "Dr. Loeb also indicated where humanity (or other advanced civilizations) > should consider relocating to when the expansion of the Universe causes the > stars of the Local Group to expand beyond the cosmic horizon. Within 50 > million light years, he indicates, likes the Virgo Cluster, which contains > about a thousands times more matter than the Milky Way Galaxy. The second > closest is the Coma Cluster, a collection of over 1000 galaxies located > about 336 million light years away." > > Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-06-tools-humanity-year- > trillion.html#jCp > > https://phys.org/news/2018-06-tools-humanity-year-trillion.html#jCp > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 10:45:00 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 05:45:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Why the 2008 crisis ended capitalism and democracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's one thing that I don't understand about national debts. Why are they even a thing? Suppose you have 2 countries. Country A owes B $1M Country B owes A $2M Why can't Country A and B just "trade" their imaginary debt to each other, so that A owes nothing, and B owes $1M? Country A owes B $1M, owes C $2M Country B owes A $1M, owes C $1M Country C owes A $2M, owes B $2M Country A has $3M in debt and is owed $3M Country B has $2M in debt and is owed $3M Country C has $4M in debt and is owed $3M Couldn't A and B swap $1M in debt; B&C swap $1M in debt; C&A swap $2M in debt Then A would have no debts; B has no debts; C has $1M in debts to B... I mean, I understand that governments tend to owe "themselves" or their citizens money, but surely something similar could be done? I mean, If I owe my Uncle 500 dollars, and he owes my aunt 400, and my aunt owes me 300... My aunt gives me 300 I Give my uncle 300 (and still owe him 200) He gives my aunt 300 (and still owes her 100) So couldn't I just say, oh, nevermind on that 300, then I owe him 200, and he owes her 100? Because even if we all pass around $1, that's eventually where we will end up... if we just subtract the debt, it's like we passed around that dollar, but really, really fast. On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:41 AM, BillK wrote: > Is the global economy just a giant debt scam? What the financial elite > doesn?t want you to know > Yanis Varoufakis saw power up close. He says capitalism is dead, > democracy is crumbling and we?re ruled by debt > > Andrew O'Hehir June 9, 2018 > > crisis-exposed-the-global-economy-as-a-giant-con-and-led-to-donald-trump/> > > Quote: > > What was the cumulative global result of all these processes? Do you > really need to ask? > > Is this where we get back to Trump and Brexit and the rise of > authoritarianism and right-wing nationalism around the world? It is. > Varoufakis sees all those things as clearly connected and part of an > unmistakable backlash. After mainstream politicians had cynically > transferred those billions of dollars in banking losses onto ordinary > people both in America and Europe -- magically combining the high > taxation of social democracy with the austerity state of free-market > capitalism -- they then pretended to be baffled by what happened next. > > The political movements that benefited from this climate, as > Varoufakis puts it, were those fueled by racism and xenophobia, "the > right-wing monsters that breed in the environment of deflation." > Establishment parties then "wondered why it was that the discarded > people from our neighborhoods and villages and towns turned against > them and decided to vote for somebody that peeved them, annoyed them, > just in order to get back at the establishment that had discarded > them. Great wonder, isn?t it?? > --------------------- > > This is a long article, but well worth reading, as it explains a lot > of the world weirdness. > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:56:51 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 07:56:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] FW: Spike, please post [science scepticism] In-Reply-To: <004f01d3feaf$5e415c30$1ac41490$@rainier66.com> References: <2063892933.2064635.1528408878027.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2063892933.2064635.1528408878027@mail.yahoo.com> <004f01d3feaf$5e415c30$1ac41490$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "What makes people distrust science? Surprisingly, not politics" by Bastiaan T Rutjens https://aeon.co/ideas/what-makes-people-distrust-science-surprisingly-not-politics One of the take-home messages of our research is that it is crucial not to > lump various forms of science skepticism together. The idea that "Republicans" and "Right-Leaning" people are more likely to reject science is explained pretty well right here: > We identified four major predictors of science acceptance and science > skepticism: political ideology; religiosity; morality; and knowledge about > science. These variables tend to intercorrelate ? in some cases quite > strongly ? which means that they are potentially confounded. I'll be showing what I believe to be evidence of this correlation below: The "Right" in the United States is highly correlated with Christianity in general, and more "Fundamentalist" types as well. According to Pew, in 2014, those who were Republican or lean Republican were: 38% Evangelical, 21% Catholic, 17% Mainline Protestant, 3% Mormon, 2% Historically Black Protestant. (81% Major Christian) Compare that with Democrats and those that lean Democrat in the same year: 21% Catholic, 16% Evangelical, 13% Mainline Protestant, 12% Historically Black Protestant, 1% Mormon. (63% Major Christian) Those affiliated with Republicans were more heavily dominated by the Evangelical block, which formed almost 40% of the party. In contrast, those affiliated with Democrats were much more likely to be part to a number of different religious backgrounds, keeping the party from playing too heavily into any one religious group's agenda. Additionally, those affiliated with Republicans were about 14% religious "nones", while 28% of those affiliated with Democrats were "nones" So Republicans have 22% more Evangelicals, and 14% less 'nones'. http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-affiliation/ Now, there are a number of topics where certain viewpoints are affected by religious belief, as can be seen in another 2014 Pew Poll. Evangelicals are much more likely to think that humans are not the product of evolution and that population growth will not cause a problem. In these areas, Mainline Protestants and Catholics are also more likely to agree. Both Evangelicals and Mainline Protestants are more likely to agree there should be more offshore drilling. Evangelicals are also more likely to oppose emissions restrictions and childhood vaccination. Mainline Protestants are more likely to favor expanding fracking. These are of course in relation to 'nones'. If Republicans have 22% more Evangelicals, then the Republican party, as a whole, is much more likely to reject Evolution, and not consider the potential dangers of population growth. http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/22/science-and-religion/ Another thing that's associated with being an Evangelical, is homeschooling. One of the two top reasons for homeschooling is the ability to teach from > a religious perspective, and about two-thirds of homeschoolers > self-identify as evangelical Christians. https://hslda.org/content/docs/news/washingtontimes/200911230.asp If, in 2012, there were about 1.8M homeschooled students, that would mean that over 1M of them were self identified evangelicals (by HSLDA's count, biased as they may be). https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/oii/nonpublic/statistics.html Now of course, this leaves us in a sticky situation, how many parents do those children really represent? But also, perhaps that is beyond the point. Homeschoolers tend to exhibit weaker math skills than publically schooled children. The HSLDA-sponsored studies also found that homeschoolers do comparatively > less well in math than in language-based subjects (Ray, 1997a; Rudner, > 1999). Likewise Belfield (2005), in a well-designed study that controlled > for family background variables, found that homeschooled seniors taking the > SAT scored slightly better than predicted on the SAT verbal and slightly > worse on the SAT math. A similar study of ACT mathematics scores likewise > found a slight mathematical disadvantage for homeschoolers https://giftedhomeschoolers.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/10-219-1-PB.pdf In addition to being weaker at math, they were also less curious about math as well Homeschooled children were more intrinsically motivated in reading and less > intrinsically motivated in math than children attending a conventional > school using grades to evaluate students? performance. [...] It is also > unclear why homeschooled children?s intrinsic motivation was higher for > reading but lower for math compared to children who attended a conventional > school and received grades for their work. Freedom from grades?a salient > external reward?may allow children to maintain their interest in reading, > which is often an appealing activity in itself. Math, on the other hand, > may work differently. For example, there is some evidence that children?s > intrinsic motivation for school work is related to the amount of > instruction they receive (Stevenson & Lee, 1990). In this study, the more > time homeschooling parents spent directly involved in instruction, the > higher their children?s intrinsic motivation was for both reading and math. > While intensive instruction in math is standard in conventional schools, > many homeschooling parents use the Saxon math books as part of a > self-teaching program involving minimal instruction (Richman, Girten, & > Snyder, 1992; Sande, 1995). Thus less instructional time may have > contributed to lower intrinsic motivation for math among homeschooled > students. https://www.nheri.org/home-school-researcher-academic-intrinsic-motivation-in-homeschooled-children/ Now, the science is somewhat conflicted on if homeschoolers actually test worse on science in the K-12 sense, but testing worse in Mathematics puts someone at a distinct disadvantage for College-level science achievement. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/tea.3660180403 On another front, educational attainment by religious group is interesting. Measuring educational levels as "High school or less", "some college", "college" and "post-graduate degree", Catholics make up about 18-24% of each level, and 'nones' are similar, making up about 21-25% of each level. Mainline protestents make up 13-19%, trending upwards toward more education. Historically black protestents trend downwards, making up 8% of high school graduates (or non-graduates), but only about 3% of post-graduate degrees. Evangelical Protestants also trend downwards, making 27% of high school graduates, but only 17% of post-graduate degrees. http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/educational-distribution/ Those who attend college, even if they do not graduate with a degree, will have more science eduacation that those who only completed High School (or did not complete it). Additionally, biblical literalism is associated with "High School or less" level of achievement. About 42% of 'high school or less' thinks that the bible should be taken literally, and 25% think it is not the word of God. Among those with post-graduate degrees, 14% think it should be taken literally, and 49% think it is not the word of God. [same link] http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/educational-distribution/ Looking at these statistics we can agree generally with the findings of the study which were brought up. Moving beyond domain-specific skepticism, what did we observe about a > general trust in science, and the willingness to support science more > broadly? The results were quite clear: trust in science was by far the > lowest among the religious. In particular, religious orthodoxy was a strong > negative predictor of faith in science and the orthodox participants were > also the least positive about investing federal money in science. But > notice here again political ideology did not contribute any meaningful > variance over and beyond religiosity. But exactly what can be done about it? Additionally, these results suggest that science skepticism cannot simply > be remedied by increasing people?s knowledge about science. The impact of > scientific literacy on science skepticism, trust in science, and > willingness to support science was minor, save for the case of genetic > modification. In the writer's opinion, apparently not all that much? But, to circle back to the point at hand... >A religious person could trust a scientist to be unbiased; >yet an engineer, industrial contractor--and so forth-- >applying the results of research would not be perceived >as being unbiased. I don't know if that is actually the case. If people primarily reject science based on measures of religiosity, then I don't think that it is the application of science which is really the problem. Let's say, for example, a scientist is unbiased. Then when he says, "this dinosaur is more than 6000 years old", the person would be forced to agree with him, because the scientist is unbiased. Why would the scientist lie? However, among very religious people who hold that the Bible is literally true, they cannot accept the fact which the scientist says. To accept the fact would contradict their worldview in a very pointed (and to them, unacceptable) way. Because of this they will create entire "fake sciences" to support their belief. It's really a very, very different worldview. I'm not sure you really appreciate how totally foreign it can be to you. "Science" must be false because it seeks out "natural" explanations to things and pre-emptively rules out "supernatural" causes. "Miracles" cannot exist inside of science. Science attacks many deeply held convictions by religious people, evangelicals in particular. The earth created before the sun, woman made from man's rib, immaculate conception, the age of the Earth, the resurrection, etc. These are just the low hanging fruit. Science cannot be reconciled with these literalist views, and rejection of these views (from within the perspective of this mindset) would be eternal damnation, so they reject the science instead. >From within the religious perspective, "proof" is altogether different from the scientific perspective. In the religious perspective, anecdote and "feelings" or intuition hold a much higher weight than data. Whereas in science, the reverse is the truth. The "currency" of the one domain is not easily converted into the other. I have personal experience with this on a few levels, just due to my upbringing and personal experience. I wish I had a study or similar thing to share about it, but that has been my observation. On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 5:32 PM, wrote: > > > > > OK Alan, here ya go: > > > > > > *From:* Alan Brooks > *Sent:* Thursday, June 7, 2018 3:01 PM > *To:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* Spike, please post [science scepticism] > > > > "...science in general (?Science is just one of many opinions?)..." > > > > The religious may not be skeptical of pure science as a whole, yet might > be skeptical of Newtonian-derived science-- inchoately suspecting Newtonian > science to be outdated in some way. > > > > The distinction between pure and applied science is often blurred. Though > the article mentions that the religious are the group most skeptical of > science, the religious may not be skeptical of scientific research albeit > they could very well be of its application. A religious person could trust > a scientist to be unbiased; yet an engineer, industrial contractor--and so > forth--applying the results of research would not be perceived as being > unbiased. > > Not that the religious necessarily feel that applying science is hopeless > in outcomes, however there may be a sense of the dislocation involved > negating positive gain. Perhaps all positive material gains. Eschatology is > not concerned with laboratory research-- but rather, of the outcomes of > human endeavor, which naturally includes scientific application. > Eschatology itself is not based on hopelessness, it is about spiritual > redemption in a post-apocalyptic world. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 16:08:42 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:08:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ?What would ?Kim Jong-un? do?? In-Reply-To: <004d01d3e219$1f2ed8e0$5d8c8aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <5AE7C6F0.70907@gnolls.org> <010601d3e1a7$6c5fc4c0$451f4e40$@rainier66.com> <012a01d3e1ad$0a088a40$1e199ec0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d3e217$56587800$03096800$@rainier66.com> <004d01d3e219$1f2ed8e0$5d8c8aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: 1. Trump is smart because he's rich. Trump definately inherited more than $1M, and his current worth is unknown because he will not release his tax returns. 2. Mainstream everything didn't support Trump. I think FOX news is still regarded as Mainstream Media. FOX news did promote him, even if they mostly just focused on trashing Clinton. Destroying the opponent in a two-party race is still a form of underhanded promotion of the other candidate. It leads to one of three scenarios: 1) Clinton is disgraced so you vote 3rd party, b) Clinton is disgraced so you don't vote, c) Clinton is disgraced so you vote Trump. [Or possibly Clinton is less disgraced than Trump in the long run, so you pinch your nose distastefully and vote Clinton] And in another way of looking at it, Trump tapped into a disenfranchised demographic who have long been denied a voice in the American Political system, and said things that they have been wanting to say, but have been socially prevented from saying, despite their deeply held belief that these things are true. Further than that, many people who voted for Hillary feel disenfranchised by his win because they did not (do not) understand the electoral college system. I don't know how much of that can be blamed on the voters themselves. I think I'm probably quite a bit younger than many people on the list, because I've read stories of some of y'all having disagreements before I was even born, but in the same vein, that also means I might know something you don't. And that something is that Civics Class died sometime between 1983 when my mom dropped out, and 2012 when I graduated High School. I was never taught about how elections and other political "machines" worked. I learned it because I was interested in politics, and I worked during the 2010 and 2012 campaigns at a local political office. 3a. Trump has not "maintained an approval rating in excess of Obama's". He began lower, and now is trending within the margin of error. https://www.factcheck.org/2018/04/presidential-approval-numbers/ 3b. "No source, even Fox, gave Trump net positive coverage" Well, you know, maybe there is a reason for that? The inevitable consequences of the "Media hates Trump" argument is that he gets bad coverage because of stupid people, and that their continued and intensifying negative coverage is because every news outlet is getting stupider. Such arguments inevitably lead towards some form of tyranny, usually under the branding of "fairness" or censure/reproach in general -- because instead of admitting that the reality is failing to conform to one's superior conception of it, clearly the stupid media need superior wisdom imposed upon them by force. 4. Increasing GDP growth "via renegotiating trade agreements disadvantageous to the USA". Like what exactly? If GDP growth is going to be some exciting contest of how good a president is, your very same website shows it at nearly 4% under Obama in or around 2015. https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/gdp-growth-annual 5. Trump ended the Korean War. The Korean War is not "over" any more than it has been in the last decade. We had the summit, and still, the war is not "over" yet. Blowing up one military installation, no matter what it once contained, is the end of a war, regardless of who blew it up or why. >What on earth are you talking about?! >Trump hasn't ended anything yet. If >somebody as smart as Obama or Bill >Clinton were going to talk with the >leader of North Korea I would be filled >with optimism, but with somebody as >brain dead dumb as Trump I am filled >with dread. Well, I'm actually somewhat hopeful and optimistic about the possible outcome. NK relations have been stagnant, as far as I can tell, since before I was born. Perhaps a nudge, regardless of intent, will possibly get things moving in the right direction. People severely freaked out about Trump meeting with Kim, but in all seriousness, it would be better to re-normalize relations, if for no other reason than it would make sanctions, if we were forced to return to them, to be more impactful. NK hasn't ever experienced life without US sanctions, so if they got used to it, it might mean more if we take it away. And besides all of the antics, and despite how people might interpret it politically and morally, Trump really admires something about Kim, in a very genuine way. It's not fake because he doesn't ham it up enough. So he will probably act in a way that ultimately brings the two nations closer to normalized diplomatic relations. It's good for business. 6. People will continue to be surprised as things continue to "just happen" to benefit the USA (IRAN). I don't really see what pulling out of the Iran Nuclear Agreement really accomplished? Sure, it would only have existed for a few more years, and perhaps we would have liked to have stricter limits on the agreement, but those could have been negotiated from within the confines of the agreement, in the form of amendments. Hell, we could have even pulled out of the agreement, using the mechanism from within the agreement. Pulling out the way we did does not limit Iran's nuclear capabilities, has emboldened their rhetoric and actions, and has proven that the US can't be trusted to keep its word, even in vital matters. 7. NASA should do NASA-type thing. Well of course. Space exploration serves a number of important functions. It gives people hope & dreams. It presents challenges to be overcome with amazing new technologies. It elevates that social and cultural status of scientists and researchers. All important things. 8. Being Extropian meant favoring free markets. Doesn't the list still favor a highly competitive free market system? That's been my impression when I have read discussions for the last number of years. What other model would really fit? 9. Being Extropian meant a balanced budget. Well, isn't it though? High debt is bad for national security in a number of ways, some of which are psychological, in both citizens and politicians. Money isn't actually "real" but it is a very well established social fiction that we should take great care in tampering with. 9. Trump doesn't read his briefings. President Trump is declining to read his daily brief and is instead having > officials orally brief him on certain issues > Reading the report is not Trump?s chosen ?style of learning" > Intelligence analysts have been recommended to keep their daily briefings > with Trump short, limiting them to three topics and keeping their findings > to a single page. http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/373124-trump-prefers-oral-report-to-reading-daily-intel-briefing-report As they huddle around the desk, Trump likes to pore over visuals ? maps, > charts, pictures and videos, as well as ?killer graphics,? as CIA Director > Mike Pompeo phrased it. > Intelligence officials were prepared to deliver daily briefings to Trump > throughout the transition period, but the president-elect often turned them > away, usually agreeing to sit for briefings only once or twice per week. > ?You know, I?m, like, a smart person. I don?t have to be told the same > thing in the same words every single day for the next eight years,? Trump > told Fox News last December. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-president-trump-consumes--or-does-not-consume--top-secret-intelligence/2017/05/29/1caaca3e-39ae-11e7-a058-ddbb23c75d82_story.html?utm_term=.1b5de5ceba6c The early briefing sessions had a more freewheeling quality, according to > current and former administration officials. Five or more White House aides > might join Trump for the briefing, in addition to his briefer and > intelligence officials. > The meetings were often dominated by whatever topic most interested the > president that day. Trump would discuss the news of the day or a tweet he > sent about North Korea or the border wall ? or anything else on his mind, > two people familiar with the briefings said. > On such days, there would only be a few minutes left ? and the briefers > would have barely broached the topics they came to discuss, one senior U.S. > official said. > ?He often goes off on tangents during the briefing and you?d have to rein > him back in,? one official said. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/breaking-with-tradition-trump-skips-presidents-written-intelligence-report-for-oral-briefings/2018/02/09/b7ba569e-0c52-11e8-95a5-c396801049ef_story.html?utm_term=.e5c5bfb61869 National Security Council (NSC) officials include President Trump's name in > memos in as many paragraphs as possible to increase the chance he reads > them, Reuters reported Wednesday. > NSC officials insert the president's name in "as many paragraphs as we can > because he keeps reading if he's mentioned," the report said. > It added that Trump likes short, single-page memos and likes to use visual > aides. http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/333788-nsc-official-include-trumps-name-as-often-as-possible-so-he-reads 10. If Trump loses, he won't leave. >My biggest worry has nothing to do with >technology. If Trump loses in 2020, even >if its by a landslide, I really don't think >he will go quietly, I think he will say it >was a fake election and somebody will have to >literally drag him out of the Oval Office. And >I'm not sure that will be possible. A recent >poll said half the Republicans would be in favor >of postponing the election if Trump said we should, >and I'm sure they would be in favor of nullifying >the election results too if they don't go their >way regardless of what the Constitution says. In a certain way I agree with you, but on the other hand, I'm not so sure the concern is valid. As it stands, only about 20% of American citizens voted for Trump, or about 25% of adults. Since the election, quite a few people have expressed regret, such as an illegal immigrant pastor who told his daughter to vote for Trump and is now facing deportation, American Steel and Aluminum, etc. So these people who did vote for him, generally are not supporting him now (with the exception of that pastor being deported)... Additionally, there were a number of people who voted for him not because they felt they were voting "for" him, but rather because they felt obligated to vote "against" Hillary. So even though he probably had many supporters who didn't vote, many of the people who voted for him can't correctly be considered "supporters". I also wonder if those who didn't vote for him actually feel strongly enough to take action to promote or protect him, if that might lead to severe bodily harm for him. And beyond even those considerations, it seems roughly that the "Magic Numbers" are 1/3 from what I can recall. 1/3 for, 1/3 against, 1/3 neutral is the basis of many civil wars and well-orchestrated rebellions. I'm not convinced that he has the "magic numbers" he would need. > Regardless of what even the majority wants, > the constitution is still the law. This is true, and not true. If the majority wants, the majority can get the law changed. If the president wants, he can declare martial law where lots of things work really different from a normal day in the States. If enough people choose to ignore the law, then it doesn't really matter if it exists. For example, it was not legal for the South to form the Confederacy. The American Revolution was not legal. And yet here we are. >>the constitution is not a law of >> physics, it can be violated? >Sure, if you win the civil war. I wouldn?t bet >on anyone?s odds, since they would be up against >those who hold that document as sacred as a law >of physics, and we are a well-armed militia. >The constitution is what gives a president >authority in the first place. Assuming there -was- a civil war, rather than a guerrilla movement. I don't think that it's likely, but people might roll over and accept it, "outrage fatigue" as people have started to say lately. And the laws of physics aren't "sacred" really. They seem to be literally unbreakable. If the president is trying not to be a president anymore, then the constitution doesn't really matter, does it? Besides that, in a very real sense, might makes right. As the person with the football, he's someone with a very large amount of power. Do I think he would even try? I think he would flirt with it, but ultimately would have the good sense to understand that if he messed it up he would be looking at a whole lot worse than bankruptcy. >keep in mind the founders specifically designed >the constitution to prevent someone from making >himself king. [...] So? they put in place a >system that specifically prevents that. They >did a marvelous job. This is true, as long as people accept the social fiction that is the constitution. The Constitution is just as real as money, for better or for worse. >there is no redo mechanism in the constitution There isn't, but we do have the elastic clause, and that's almost as good. >he can insist [on a redo] all he wants, but there >is no legal mechanism to make that happen That may be true BUT all it takes is one nut-job fanatic with a gun to shoot the "new" president. I'm not saying that it's LIKELY that anything like that will happen, but it certainly is possible. It could happen, however unlikely. On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 8:26 AM, wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 2, 2018 6:13 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] ?What would ?Kim Jong-un? do?? > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave Sill > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 2, 2018 5:04 AM > *To:* Extropy chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ?What would ?Kim Jong-un? do?? > > > > On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:35 PM wrote: > > We saw Rogue One. We know it can be done, we know there is enormous > motive. So what can we do? > > > > >?We need to actively share videos that demonstrate what can be faked. > Like: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ54GDm1eL0&t=3s > > > > The downside, of course, is that we'll end up unable to believe what we > see and hear. When the piss tape is inevitably released Trump will say it's > fake and...well...who's to say? > > > > -Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh the potential for gags here, oh my it makes my butt hurt just thinking > about it. Now if we can just prevent that whole civil war business? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, boy this quickly gets knee deep in ethical considerations. Mama is > on her deathbed, medics say there is no hope, she has a few days at best. > Her heartbreak is that her wayward son eschewed the religion of his mother, > went his own way and wrecked his life, now he?s doing hard time. The other > children make a video of him telling his mother he repented of his sins, he > is leading a prison ministry, even the guards are giving up their sinful > ways, the parole board has set up an interview, etc. > > > > It is wrong. But at least their mother dies with a smile on her face. > Hmmmm? > > > > On the other hand, what if there really is a heaven, she get there, looks > down, her son is the meanest bastard in the prison yard, covered in big > ugly tattoos, leading a gang, etc. Then she gets so pissed she goes and > haunts the kids who were just trying to do good deeds with their fancy > ?computers? and ?videos?, lying to a dying old lady, SHAME bitches! etc. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Jul 11 18:42:58 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:42:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] bees again Message-ID: <002601d41946$fdaebf40$f90c3dc0$@rainier66.com> Over the years I have posted my observations of local bees, a topic not entirely ExI related, but my friends and colleagues have been most indulgent of this folly. Starting about 10 yrs ago, I noticed what appeared to be signs of bee distress everywhere I looked. Now for reasons equally hard to explain, I am seeing signs of robust recovery everywhere. I am not seeing dead or dying bees on the sidewalks and roads, I do not see signs of listless inactivity on the hive surfaces, my own blossoms are buzzing as loudly (if not moreso) than before a decade ago. About two months ago, I was at the local miniature golf park when a most vigorous swarm passed through. Knowing that swarming bees will not sting, I positioned myself in the middle of a bee tornado, attempting to take a photo of an interesting phenomenon, as other patrons tossed their clubs and fled in ignorant terror. Yesterday I saw another swarm, again looking around for a place to start a new hive. It is unusual to see a bee swarm in the wild as often as every five years. I see two in this year alone. As far as I know, there were no major overhauls in pesticide use in California or Santa Clara County, but I do recognize the possibility that such a change occurred. Information to the contrary is welcomed, here or offlist. If there was such a change in the last coupla years, this could be a big finding. Congratulations on the apparent recovery to our bee friends. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 23:57:01 2018 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:57:01 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Why the 2008 crisis ended capitalism and democracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's only a debt because a bunch of people believe a bunch of numbers in computers are real. Just stop believing it. Job done. Before: rocks, trees, flowers, stuff. After: *same* rocks, trees, flowers, stuff What's changed? NOTHING except a bunch of beliefs are gone. Wanna render a billionaire penniless? Just stop believing they have money. We all believed it to them. That's how they got it. So just stop believing they have any. Unbelieve it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC3qPUCv4bQ :-) Colin On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:45 PM, SR Ballard wrote: > Here's one thing that I don't understand about national debts. Why are > they even a thing? > > Suppose you have 2 countries. > > Country A owes B $1M > Country B owes A $2M > > Why can't Country A and B just "trade" their imaginary debt to each other, > so that A owes nothing, and B owes $1M? > > Country A owes B $1M, owes C $2M > Country B owes A $1M, owes C $1M > Country C owes A $2M, owes B $2M > > Country A has $3M in debt and is owed $3M > Country B has $2M in debt and is owed $3M > Country C has $4M in debt and is owed $3M > > Couldn't A and B swap $1M in debt; B&C swap $1M in debt; C&A swap $2M in > debt > Then A would have no debts; B has no debts; C has $1M in debts to B... > > I mean, I understand that governments tend to owe "themselves" or their > citizens money, but surely something similar could be done? > > > I mean, If I owe my Uncle 500 dollars, and he owes my aunt 400, and my > aunt owes me 300... > My aunt gives me 300 > I Give my uncle 300 (and still owe him 200) > He gives my aunt 300 (and still owes her 100) > > So couldn't I just say, oh, nevermind on that 300, then I owe him 200, and > he owes her 100? Because even if we all pass around $1, that's eventually > where we will end up... if we just subtract the debt, it's like we passed > around that dollar, but really, really fast. > > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:41 AM, BillK wrote: > >> Is the global economy just a giant debt scam? What the financial elite >> doesn?t want you to know >> Yanis Varoufakis saw power up close. He says capitalism is dead, >> democracy is crumbling and we?re ruled by debt >> >> Andrew O'Hehir June 9, 2018 >> >> > exposed-the-global-economy-as-a-giant-con-and-led-to-donald-trump/> >> >> Quote: >> >> What was the cumulative global result of all these processes? Do you >> really need to ask? >> >> Is this where we get back to Trump and Brexit and the rise of >> authoritarianism and right-wing nationalism around the world? It is. >> Varoufakis sees all those things as clearly connected and part of an >> unmistakable backlash. After mainstream politicians had cynically >> transferred those billions of dollars in banking losses onto ordinary >> people both in America and Europe -- magically combining the high >> taxation of social democracy with the austerity state of free-market >> capitalism -- they then pretended to be baffled by what happened next. >> >> The political movements that benefited from this climate, as >> Varoufakis puts it, were those fueled by racism and xenophobia, "the >> right-wing monsters that breed in the environment of deflation." >> Establishment parties then "wondered why it was that the discarded >> people from our neighborhoods and villages and towns turned against >> them and decided to vote for somebody that peeved them, annoyed them, >> just in order to get back at the establishment that had discarded >> them. Great wonder, isn?t it?? >> --------------------- >> >> This is a long article, but well worth reading, as it explains a lot >> of the world weirdness. >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Jul 12 00:30:16 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:30:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Greek debt crisis Message-ID: <22fb105a8b940dcf89a4973951ca2fc2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525 "The bailout program is scheduled to end in August, 2018. Greece's unemployment rate has fallen to 20 percent from more than 25 percent in 2013. Its economy grew 2.5 percent, compared to an almost 10 percent contraction in 2011. It expects to repay at least 75 percent of its debt by 2060. Until then, European creditors will supervise adherence to austerity measures." ----------------------------------------------- Here's a crazy idea: Instead of punishing the tax payer's of Greece for staying in the EU, how about an international agreement to pay Greece a 5% royalty on the Olympic games? Why? Because they *invented* the Olympic games way back when. Stuart LaForge From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 00:35:31 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:35:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Using CRISPR to get Cancer to kill Cancer Message-ID: Essentially, they found a protein (S-TRAIL) which will kill many types of cancer cells without harming many healthy cells. Then they use CRISPR to put it inside Cancer cells which are circulating in the bloodstream, who then go home and share it with their friends, then self-destruct. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cancer-cells-engineered-crispr-slay-their-own-kin https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922963 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Jul 12 00:10:57 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:10:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion Message-ID: <7f4214f2d05320842875bb2941c0730d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Sabrina Ballard wrote: > After poking around the internet for a while, it seems that these > galaxies are "moving" faster than light not because they actually exceed > the speed of light in any way, but rather because space is expanding > between them and us at a rate faster than the speed of light. So it is not > the matter or energy which is exceeding the speed of light, but rather the > "medium" > (space-time) is expanding in such a way that we are being separated at a > speed which exceeds the speed of light. So technically, the speed of light > is not "broken" in any way. > > I think of most of you on the list as being much smarter than myself. Do > I > get the gist of it? Or can someone explain it to me more clearly or point > me to good resourses? You do get the gist of the geometric "block time" view of the expansion of 4-D space-time which is like a static picture from outside of time. Like what a 5-D being might see. There are however more nuanced models to help you understand. You can also visualize what is going on from within time by thinking of space as a very peculiar "fluid" that flows over time. Dark energy is a source of that fluid, like a faucet, and gravity is a sink for the fluid like a drain. Imagine galaxies as being like rubber duckies in an infinite-sized tub being filled with water faster than it is being drained away. Now imagine the rubber duckies being driven apart by currents in the water even though none of them can actually swim. You can think of the speed of light limit as applying to things having mass moving through space but not to things that are just caught in the currents of "flowing" space. That being said, even though space-flow can move things away from you faster than light, nature still censors information from those things from reaching you once they start to exceed c. In other words, an event horizon is formed and you can no longer get updates as to what happens to those areas where space is flowing away from you faster than light. They are effectively outside your patch of the universe. > I really should get a Maths degree. If the degree is worth the expense to you, then sure, like if you plan to use math professionally. If you just want to understand without needing to prove that you understand to anyone, then you can just watch PBS Space-Time on You Tube for the basics and if you want more in-depth details you can just watch physics and math lectures from universities all over the world. It's all there on You Tube for free, if you want it. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Thu Jul 12 04:55:18 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 21:55:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Greek debt crisis In-Reply-To: <22fb105a8b940dcf89a4973951ca2fc2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <22fb105a8b940dcf89a4973951ca2fc2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004c01d4199c$88164360$9842ca20$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge Subject: [ExI] Greek debt crisis https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525 "The bailout program is scheduled to end in August, 2018. Greece's unemployment rate... ----------------------------------------------- >...Here's a crazy idea: Instead of punishing the tax payer's of Greece for staying in the EU, how about an international agreement to pay Greece a 5% royalty on the Olympic games? Why? Because they *invented* the Olympic games way back when. >...Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ I would go along with it, if they would get the athletes to compete nekkid, Greek style. I would be first in line to buy tickets to women's figure skating, women's gymnastics, pretty much anything except women's weight lifting and I might even check out that. The Greeks were on it that way. We treat sports like a business, but the Greeks knew how to have fun while having fun. spike From tara at taramayastales.com Wed Jul 11 16:54:14 2018 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:54:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanist Tarot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63823E23-B194-499E-A1DE-1555C55855AF@taramayastales.com> I love this? when do we get the deck? :) > On Jul 10, 2018, at 5:25 PM, John Grigg wrote: > > What do you think? From Tumblr...... > > Updated Major Arcana for Transhumanist Tarot > > (out of order, sorry) > > The Fool ? Genus Homo > The Sun ? Dyson Sphere > The Hanged Man ? The Astronaut > The World ? Orbit > The Devil ? Moloch > The Tower ? Superintelligence > Death ? The Dragon Tyrant OR The Singularity (I CAN?T CHOOSE ARGH) > The Moon ? The Moon Landing > The High Priestess ? Lady Cyborg/Catgirl > The Hierophant ? The Futurist > The Lovers ? The Polycule > Judgement ? Roko?s Basilisk > The Emperor ?Azathoth > The Emperess ? Elua > Strength ? Strength (w/prosthetics or exoskeleton) > Temperence ? Nootropics > The Star ? Mars > The Magician ? The Scientist > The Chariot ? Cryonics > The Hermit ? The Hacker > Justice ? Effective Altruism > Wheel of Fortune ? Futures Wheel > > http://sadstracted.tumblr.com/post/169797466781/updated-major-arcana-for-transhumanist-tarot > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat Tara Maya Blog | Twitter | Facebook | Amazon | Goodreads -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 06:24:09 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 01:24:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Greek debt crisis In-Reply-To: <004c01d4199c$88164360$9842ca20$@rainier66.com> References: <22fb105a8b940dcf89a4973951ca2fc2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004c01d4199c$88164360$9842ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: There are weight classes for women's weightlifting. Women in the lower weight classes tend to be more appealing, to me anyway. On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 11:55 PM, wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Stuart LaForge > > Subject: [ExI] Greek debt crisis > > https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-greece-debt-crisis-3305525 > > "The bailout program is scheduled to end in August, 2018. Greece's > unemployment rate... > ----------------------------------------------- > > >...Here's a crazy idea: Instead of punishing the tax payer's of Greece for > staying in the EU, how about an international agreement to pay Greece a 5% > royalty on the Olympic games? Why? Because they *invented* the Olympic > games > way back when. > > >...Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > > I would go along with it, if they would get the athletes to compete nekkid, > Greek style. I would be first in line to buy tickets to women's figure > skating, women's gymnastics, pretty much anything except women's weight > lifting and I might even check out that. The Greeks were on it that way. > We treat sports like a business, but the Greeks knew how to have fun while > having fun. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:04:31 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 09:04:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Why the 2008 crisis ended capitalism and democracy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 6:48 AM SR Ballard wrote: > Suppose you have 2 countries. > > Country A owes B $1M > Country B owes A $2M > > Why can't Country A and B just "trade" their imaginary debt to each other, > so that A owes nothing, and B owes $1M? > Because most debt isn't owned by countries, it's privately held and paying the owners varying rates of return. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 17:18:50 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:18:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Using CRISPR to get Cancer to kill Cancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More good news about cancer: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0326-5 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/health/gene-editing-cancer.html John K Clark =========== On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:35 PM, SR Ballard wrote: > Essentially, they found a protein (S-TRAIL) which will kill many types of > cancer cells without harming many healthy cells. > > Then they use CRISPR to put it inside Cancer cells which are circulating > in the bloodstream, who then go home and share it with their friends, then > self-destruct. > > https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cancer-cells- > engineered-crispr-slay-their-own-kin > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922963 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 19:04:22 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:04:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Using CRISPR to get Cancer to kill Cancer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <707D0B1B-0197-4721-AD23-A8E1A6E57C8E@gmail.com> That really is good news, very cool. > On Jul 13, 2018, at 12:18, John Clark wrote: > > More good news about cancer: > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0326-5 > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/health/gene-editing-cancer.html > > John K Clark > > =========== > > > >> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:35 PM, SR Ballard wrote: >> Essentially, they found a protein (S-TRAIL) which will kill many types of cancer cells without harming many healthy cells. >> >> Then they use CRISPR to put it inside Cancer cells which are circulating in the bloodstream, who then go home and share it with their friends, then self-destruct. >> >> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cancer-cells-engineered-crispr-slay-their-own-kin >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15922963 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Jul 14 05:15:36 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:15:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Simulations and Fixed Points Message-ID: <01ecb1c2e749f43c82ec06e96e8c4682.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Lately I have been trying to come up with mathematical ways of testing whether we live in a simulation or not. I still can't prove it one way or another, although I have discovered some pretty interesting consequences which result if we do in fact live in a simulation. One such counter intuitive result involves the mathematical concept of "fixed points". A fixed point of a function is a point in the domain of a function where the output of the function exactly matches the input. For example, in f(x)=x^2, there are two fixed points at x=0 and at x=1 because 0^2=0 and 1^2=1. There are many so-called fixed-point theorems that depend on the nature of the functions in question. These theorems are important because computer simulations are themselves functions and so one or more of these fixed-point theorems might shed some light on the question of whether our reality is a simulated reality or the base reality. For example, if we assume that we live in a simulation that is a contraction mapping of the base reality, that is to say it is a small-scale model of the base reality, then the Banach fixed-point theorem would apply. This would mean that the simulation that we live in would contain a single fixed point that would be exactly the same point in the base reality. In other words the base and simulated realities would coexist together at that single mathematical point as if the two realities were tangent at that single point. One can see this must be true quite intuitively for simple two dimensional spaces. For example imagine you have a map of your town at any scale. You could throw that map down on the ground at any location in town, in any orientation with regards to north-south axis and there is guaranteed to be a single unique point on the map that is a fixed point. This fixed point would have the property that if you stuck a pin through that point on the map, it would also go through the exact point on the ground that is represented by that point on the map. What this implies for the simulation argument is that if we live in a simulation that is a scale model of some larger reality, then there has to be some unique event that happens at the exact same time and place in both the simulated and base realities. I wonder what such an event would look like to us? Would it stand out or be completely mundane and uninteresting? Curious indeed. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 13:52:00 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 09:52:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Simulations and Fixed Points In-Reply-To: <01ecb1c2e749f43c82ec06e96e8c4682.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <01ecb1c2e749f43c82ec06e96e8c4682.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 1:15 AM, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > *What this implies for the simulation argument is that if we live in a > simulation that is a scale model of some larger reality, then there has to > be some unique event that happens at the exact same time and place in both > the simulated and base realities.I wonder what such an event would look > like to us?* Perhaps it would look like a non-computable function. Only the first 4 Busy Beaver numbers have been found and Scott Aaronson proved that the 7918th Busy Beaver number is not computable even in principle. Nobody knows what the smallest non-computable Busy Beaver number is, it might be as low as Busy Beaver #5, but whatever that number is it will be the same in our world and the mega-world that is simulating us. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:25:11 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 09:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Simulations and Fixed Points In-Reply-To: References: <01ecb1c2e749f43c82ec06e96e8c4682.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: My issue with living in a simulation is more on the personal end. Assuming it is run by something like a computer, with software and other such things, then we sort of exist in a predicament. What if we get turned off/rebooted? What if there is a glitch/bug? What if there is a "hot" software update? Possibly all of the laws of physics as we know them could suddenly change, etc... And, if reality is a simulation, then doesn't that mean "magic" and "afterlife" actually could be real? After all, it's just software, so if you think something hard enough, that could be part of the program, etc. The whole thing feels like an intellectual pandora's box to me. On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 8:52 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 1:15 AM, Stuart LaForge > wrote: > > > >> *What this implies for the simulation argument is that if we live in a >> simulation that is a scale model of some larger reality, then there has to >> be some unique event that happens at the exact same time and place in both >> the simulated and base realities.I wonder what such an event would look >> like to us?* > > > Perhaps it would look like a non-computable function. Only the first 4 > Busy Beaver numbers have been found and Scott Aaronson proved that the > 7918th Busy Beaver number is not computable even in principle. Nobody knows > what the smallest non-computable Busy Beaver number is, it might be as low > as Busy Beaver #5, but whatever that number is it will be the same in our > world and the mega-world that is simulating us. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:57:47 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 10:57:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:47 AM, John Grigg wrote: \ > >" > *The paper, "Securing Fuel for our Frigid Cosmic Future", recently > appeared online. As he indicates in his study, when the Universe is ten > times its current age (roughly 138 billion years old), all stars outside > the Local Group of galaxies will no be accessible to us since they will be > receding away faster than the speed of light. For this reason, he > recommends that humanity follow the lesson from Aesop's fable, "The Ants > and the Grasshopper"."Dr. Loeb also indicated where humanity (or other > advanced civilizations) should consider relocating to when the expansion of > the Universe causes the stars of the Local Group to expand beyond the > cosmic horizon. Within 50 million light years, he indicates, likes the > Virgo Cluster, which contains about a thousands times more matter than the > Milky Way Galaxy. The second closest is the Coma Cluster, a collection of > over 1000 galaxies located about 336 million light years away.*" > https://phys.org/news/2018-06-tools-humanity-year-trillion.html#jCp I think moving to the Virgo or Coma Cluster would just be kicking the problem down the road, if you want a permanent solution and true immortality you?re going to have to extract useful work from Dark Energy itself. Back in February I sent a post to the list that might have some relevance to this subject, I will repeat it now: === For years physicists debated if gravitational waves were real, some said they contained no energy and so were just a mathematical artifact of no physical significance. But then in 1957 Richard Feynman came up with a thought experiment that showed gravitational waves must contain energy and thus must have real physical effects, the sticky bead argument. It sure seems to me it could also show that work can be extracted from the expansion of the universe. Feynman said place two beads on a sticky rigid rod, the beads can slide freely but there is a small amount of friction between the beads and the rod. If the rod is placed transversely to the direction of propagation of the gravitational wave then atomic forces will hold the length of the rod fixed, or almost fixed, but the proper distance between the two beads would be free to oscillate. So the beads would have to rub against the rod, and the friction from that would produce heat, and with heat you could run a steam engine and get work out of it. Why couldn?t the same argument also be used to show you could get work out of the expansion of the universe? We already know that if local forces are strong enough they can overcome the general expansion and acceleration of the universe, that?s why the Andromeda galaxy is approaching the Milky Way, the 2 galaxies are so close that the attraction is stronger than the repulsion caused by the expansion of the universe. The atomic forces within the rod should keep its length the same or almost the same just as it did for gravitational waves, but the distance between the beads should increase due to the expansion of the universe and if there is friction I don?t see how heat could be avoided. I think although it would work theoretically it would be ridiculously impractical to do now, but perhaps not in the very distant future if the acceleration of the universe is itself accelerating and we?re heading for the Big Rip. Most think it will never happen but it depends on the ratio between the dark energy pressure and its energy density. Physicist Robert R. Caldwell points out that if this ratio is even slightly less than ?1 then the Big Rip will happen, its just a matter of when. For example, if the ratio is ?1.5 then the Big Rip will happen in 22 billion years, the Milky Way would be ripped apart 60 million years before the Big Rip, the solar system would be ripped apart 3 months before the Big Rip, in the last 2 or 3 minutes stars and planets would be ripped apart and in the last few seconds even atoms would come apart. And then protons and neutrons would be ripped into quarks. Most think that would mean the end of any hope for a immortal life but maybe not, subjective immortality might still be possible. In fact for immortality to happen the Big Rip may be necessary. By immortality I mean the ability to have an infinite number of new thoughts, and that would require a infinite number of calculations, and that would require a infinite amount of work. It might be possible to get that much energy before the Big Rip. Your computer would continually get smaller as it was getting pulled apart but the energy available to run what was still intact would keep getting larger because the heat from friction would keep getting hotter and the cold sink of the external universe would keep getting colder increasing the efficiency of the heat engine. If the increase in speed of the remaining computer more than compensated for the decrease in the number of processors then physical law may allow for an infinite (and not just astronomical) number of calculations to be made in the finite amount of time between now and The Big Rip. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 15:10:07 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 10:10:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking Message-ID: Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains. I have repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in Wikipedia. Not being any kind of expert on evolution, I want someone(s) to explain just how evolution can explain these unfortunate thinking errors. I do know that not everything we have, mentally or physically, is the best possible. In fact we might have some features that have worked against our survival, but we made it anyway. Many others, I assume, are just neutral - neither helping us or hurting our survival. But it is hard for me to understand how mental errors that distort reality, some in major ways, could have gotten through. Here is a list, which will probably grow with more research. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases Ideas? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jul 14 16:38:49 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 09:38:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d41b91$257799b0$7066cd10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark ? === >?For years physicists debated if gravitational waves were real, some said they contained no energy and so were just a mathematical artifact of no physical significance. But then in 1957 Richard Feynman came up with a thought experiment that showed gravitational waves must contain energy and thus must have real physical effects, the sticky bead argument? The LIGO experiment is hardcore evidence of Feynman?s notion. The long tubes were clearly compressed by the passing gravity waves. The steel is very close to perfectly elastic but are not perfectly elastic: compressing and expanding a pipe even a fraction of a proton width would create friction, and that energy hasta come from somewhere. >? It sure seems to me it could also show that work can be extracted from the expansion of the universe. John K Clark I don?t see why not, and can even expand a bit on that expansion argument. General relativity has a term in there for calculating the inertial frame-dragging phenomenon measured by Gravity Probe B. I had the privilege of working on that experiment back in 1989. The gyro precession was found, and that precession requires a torque thru an angle, and that is work, which is energy. It looks to me like inertial frame-dragging would strengthen your argument that expansion of the universe is converting energy. What I don?t know is if (or how) work could be extracted from the process. That process might define the entropy level beyond which energy cannot be extracted because there is no higher entropy level to reach. Oh how I wish I understood the subtleties of the second law better than I do. There is so much truth to be found there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Jul 14 16:48:27 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 09:48:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006401d41b92$7dc7ac80$79570580$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:10 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking >?Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains. I have repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in Wikipedia. ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases ?>bill w Billw, cog biases can be explained using evolutionary psychology, but one needs to call upon the controversial notion of group selection. Strong arguments have been promoted that evolution only works on the individual level. I would argue that to explain easily-verifiable observations, such as cognitive biases, we must acknowledge that evolutionary selection does work at the group level, not just families, but particularly there. Clarification: group selection works in those species which do work as groups. Alligators and flies and such: not. Lions, bees, orcas, humans, yes. Humans compete against other species, against other tribes, against each other and compete at the gene level. If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 17:31:10 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:31:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 11:10 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > *>Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the > crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains. I have > repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in > Wikipedia. Not being any kind of expert on evolution, I want someone(s) to > explain just how evolution can explain these unfortunate thinking errors.* Even if you had perfect knowledge of the problem at hand (and in the real world that Evolution works in you never do) there is no general algorithm that would always enable you to always make the best choice all the time. And time is an issue too, a mediocre solution you have right now about what to do about that leopard that is about to jump onto you is far superior from a Evolutionary point of view than a perfect solution found an hour from now, that's the only disadvantage to the Scientific Method and the reason it is not instinctual. So Evolution gave us some rules of thumb that are fast and work pretty well most of the time, but like all rules of thumb they sometimes can go badly wrong. >From the list at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases >* Anthropomorphism and Anthropocentric thinking* Anthropomorphism can be a valuable tool, animals sometimes do act in ways that are not entirely dissimilar to the ways humans act, and even physicists say to themselves things like ?the electron wants to go straight but the magnetic field forces it to move in a circle?. *> The tendency to give an opinion that is more socially correct than one's true opinion, so as to avoid offending anyone.* Not unnecessarily turning members of your own species into enemies seems like part of a good survival strategy to me. *> The tendency of our perception to be affected by our recurring thoughts* We have no choice , we just don't have enough brainpower to deeply analyze all the sensory data received so we must prioritize it according to its estimated importance, usually that estimate is mostly right but sometimes we miss something important but thats the way it goes, we can't do everything. > *> When given a choice between several options, the tendency to favor the > default one.* If you estimate there is a 50% chance that doing nothing will make things worse and a 50% chance that doing something will make things worse then it would be logical to do nothing and hope for the best, at least that way you save energy. *>The tendency to think that future probabilities are altered by past > events, when in reality they are unchanged.* That is certainly an error but probably wasn't a big handicap to our prehistoric ancestors and so the gene for that mode of thinking did not die out. *> The tendency to do (or believe) things because many other people do* The argument from authority is not always a bad one, I can't independently test everything, I've got to trust that some people are specialists and know more about some aspect of reality than I do. *> The tendency to reject new evidence that contradicts a paradigm* It's a good thing that there is a resistance to changing a paradigm. Paradigms got to be paradigms because over the years they have done a very good job, they should not be rejected unless there is overwhelming evidence for doing so. *> When better-informed people find it extremely difficult to think about > problems from the perspective of lesser-informed people* That one completely stumps me, I am utterly unable to explain the appeal Donald Trump has for so many otherwise intelligently seeming people nor, considering the current situation, the continuing popularity of third political parties. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 20:33:50 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:33:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 7:57 AM, John Clark wrote: > Feynman said place two beads on a sticky rigid rod, the beads can slide > freely but there is a small amount of friction between the beads and the > rod. If the rod is placed transversely to the direction of propagation of > the gravitational wave then atomic forces will hold the length of the rod > fixed, or almost fixed, but the proper distance between the two beads would > be free to oscillate. So the beads would have to rub against the rod, and > the friction from that would produce heat, and with heat you could run a > steam engine and get work out of it. > > Why couldn?t the same argument also be used to show you could get work out > of the expansion of the universe? Static friction, though this may work against Feynman's idea too. In short, there is a certain minimum impulse needed to start movement, when one object is resting upon another such that there is friction between them. If a gravitational wave is too weak to overcome this, it's not a small amount but literally zero movement that is imparted. Expansion of the universe seems likely to remain substantially weaker than most detectable gravitational waves. From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 17:16:34 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:16:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 4:33 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Why couldn?t the same argument also be used to show you could get > work out of the expansion of the universe? > >* Static friction,* That was just one example, it you don't like friction then tie one end of a VERY long string to a bowling ball and the other to a bar magnet inside a solenoid, as the universe expands the ball will get further away and pull the magnet through the solenoid creating a electrical current that can do work. Or tie the string to the crank on a air compressor, as the air compresses it will get hot and you can use that to rum a heat engine; and the more the universe expands the colder the ultimate heat sink, empty space, becomes and that means the heat engine becomes more and more efficient. > *> Expansion of the universe seems likely to remain substantially weaker > than most detectable gravitational waves.* Not if the acceleration is accelerating, if it is we're heading for The Big Rip and that will be very detectable indeed, even atoms will be ripped apart and soon after that protons and neutrons. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jul 15 19:20:10 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 12:20:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 10:17 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 4:33 PM, Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > Why couldn?t the same argument also be used to show you could get work out of the expansion of the universe? > Static friction, That was just one example, it you don't like friction then tie one end of a VERY long string to a bowling ball and the other to a bar magnet inside a solenoid? ? The string and the solenoid expand, so the expansion of space in that thought experiment does not pull the magnet. ?>> Expansion of the universe seems likely to remain substantially weaker than most detectable gravitational waves. >?Not if the acceleration is accelerating, if it is we're heading for The Big Rip and that will be very detectable indeed, even atoms will be ripped apart and soon after that protons and neutrons. John K Clark This one is more compelling because we tend to think of protons and neutrons being pulled apart as requiring energy, but even that isn?t clear to me if it happened because space expanded them apart. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 19:41:39 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 20:41:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> References: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 15 July 2018 at 20:20, Spike Jones wrote: > > This one is more compelling because we tend to think of protons and neutrons > being pulled apart as requiring energy, but even that isn?t clear to me if > it happened because space expanded them apart. > The expansion of space doesn't apply to gravitationally bound objects. The Andromeda galaxy which is gravitationally bound to the Milky Way is falling towards us. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Jul 15 20:38:02 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:38:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: References: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010c01d41c7b$cf6b7c30$6e427490$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 12:42 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion On 15 July 2018 at 20:20, Spike Jones wrote: > > This one is more compelling because we tend to think of protons and > neutrons being pulled apart as requiring energy, but even that isn?t > clear to me if it happened because space expanded them apart. > The expansion of space doesn't apply to gravitationally bound objects. The Andromeda galaxy which is gravitationally bound to the Milky Way is falling towards us. BillK _______________________________________________ BillK! Where the heck have ya been, me lad? Protons stick to neutrons by the strong force, not gravitation. I didn't realize Andromeda and the satellite galaxies wouldn't get Big Ripped from us, thanks for that. I suppose eventually they would. Oh I need to study up on this. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 01:04:03 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 21:04:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The tools humanity will need for living in the year 1 trillion In-Reply-To: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> References: <00e501d41c71$00d10ed0$02732c70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 3:20 PM, Spike Jones wrote: > ?>>? >> That was just one example, it you don't like friction then tie one end of >> a VERY long string to a bowling ball and the other to a bar magnet inside a >> solenoid? > > *?>?The string and the solenoid expand, so the expansion of space in that > thought experiment does not pull the magnet.* The string will never expand (unless the acceleration is itself accelerating) because Dark Energy is far too weak to overcome the chemical bonds holding the atoms in the string together. Dark Energy is even too weak to overcome the gravitational attraction between the Andromeda galaxy and the Milky Way, that why we're getting 250,000 miles closer to Andromeda every hour despite the expansion of the universe. ?John K Clark? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 09:10:41 2018 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 04:10:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] [exl] Neutrino traced to distant galaxy Message-ID: Scientists were able to trace a neutrino back to a blazar [TXS 0506+056] about 4 Billion light years from Earth. Looking at their records, it seems they had previously recorded neutrinos from the same source. Source: https://www.space.com/41146-neutrino-source-blazar-cosmic-rays.html Associated Articles: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6398/eaat1378 http://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6398/147 Blazars: https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/GLAST/science/blazers.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Mon Jul 16 23:29:03 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 23:29:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Mail server announcement Message-ID: Hello, all, I just wanted to let people here know that we're going to be updating our email servers' configurations to reduce the amount of spam we accept. Spam servers often report themselves as "google.com" or "outlook.com", while real Google and Outlook servers are more specific. We're going to turn back on the feature which rejects email from servers that use an incorrect name instead of a name which points back to the connecting server. We had used this feature in the past but because certain email services are set up haphazardly, this was a problem and was turned off. This still could be a problem, but other servers using this feature have been relatively problem-free. If for any reason your email to the Extropy mailing lists is rejected or otherwise fails to appear in a timely fashion, please let us know. Since the same email server which hosts the Extropy mailing lists also hosts my primary email account (the one from which this message is sent), you wouldn't be able to reach me if this feature is the cause. In that case, you can email me at jklos {at} netbsd.org. Thanks very much, John Klos -- I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of chaos and entropy. From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 01:19:16 2018 From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:19:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mail server announcement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks! Ilsa Bartlett Institute for Rewiring the System http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett www.hotlux.com/angel "Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to every other person." -John Coltrane On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 4:29 PM, John Klos wrote: > Hello, all, > > I just wanted to let people here know that we're going to be updating our > email servers' configurations to reduce the amount of spam we accept. > > Spam servers often report themselves as "google.com" or "outlook.com", > while real Google and Outlook servers are more specific. We're going to > turn back on the feature which rejects email from servers that use an > incorrect name instead of a name which points back to the connecting server. > > We had used this feature in the past but because certain email services > are set up haphazardly, this was a problem and was turned off. This still > could be a problem, but other servers using this feature have been > relatively problem-free. > > If for any reason your email to the Extropy mailing lists is rejected or > otherwise fails to appear in a timely fashion, please let us know. Since > the same email server which hosts the Extropy mailing lists also hosts my > primary email account (the one from which this message is sent), you > wouldn't be able to reach me if this feature is the cause. In that case, > you can email me at jklos {at} netbsd.org. > > Thanks very much, > John Klos > -- > I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an > omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose > supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which > can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same > people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is > random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of > chaos and entropy. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 18:26:50 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:26:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking Message-ID: ? So Evolution gave us some rules of thumb that are fast and work pretty well most of the time, but like all rules of thumb they sometimes can go badly wrong. John (thanks also to spike) John! You did not have to be a physicist. You coulda been a psychologist! I cast out my bait and hook two big thinkers. My problem with these algorithms - they are patches. Maybe they were the best that dna could come up with at the time, and as John says, they work sometimes, mainly to maintain the status quo. That's where my contrarian mind balks. The algorithms/patches are not, by far, nuanced thinking. Thus I think that they are unworthy of advanced minds who will lead the culture, whether it be scientific or something else ( I see no evidence that advanced minds are leading popular culture). They do distort reality and need improvement, or in many cases, disposal. But I do recognize that perhaps it could be argued that they were needed in some form. Tribal level, I think. Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. ?Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit? bill w? On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Spike Jones wrote: ? ? If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans.? > ?I guess that to refine my question might help: Just how do the biases > help? It is very easy to see how such things as lying (not a cognitive > bias) can be very beneficial. It is much harder, impossible to me in fact, > to see how irrational thinking done by an individual can help his or her > survival.? > > ?By the group, yes. Religion, for one, is irrational - some prefer nonrational - but does help group cohesion in certain ways?. > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Saturday, July 14, 2018 8:10 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking > > > > >?Pondering for the nth time about why humans got so far with all the > crazy, illogical cognitive gadgets that inhabit our forebrains. I have > repeatedly mentioned to this group the cognitive errors or biases listed in > Wikipedia. > > > > ? > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases > > > > ?>bill w > > > > > > Billw, cog biases can be explained using evolutionary psychology, but one > needs to call upon the controversial notion of group selection. Strong > arguments have been promoted that evolution only works on the individual > level. I would argue that to explain easily-verifiable observations, such > as cognitive biases, we must acknowledge that evolutionary selection does > work at the group level, not just families, but particularly there. > > > > Clarification: group selection works in those species which do work as > groups. Alligators and flies and such: not. Lions, bees, orcas, humans, > yes. Humans compete against other species, against other tribes, against > each other and compete at the gene level. > ?? > If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or > promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain > why they persist in humans. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Jul 17 19:51:02 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:51:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007401d41e07$7e724790$7b56d6b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace >?Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. ?Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit? bill w? This observation about survival of the fittest should have been stated survival of the best adapted. If we are discussing humans, fitness in the traditional sense is nearly irrelevant. The unfit prosper in the right environment, such as our technically advanced world. People who are dependent on modern medical technology for instance are likely to reside near a hospital, which implies a big city, where reproductive opportunities are relatively plentiful. In that sense, the unfit are better adapted to our world than the fittest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 00:18:36 2018 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:18:36 +1000 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: <007401d41e07$7e724790$7b56d6b0$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d41e07$7e724790$7b56d6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I wrote about this in my book. When you don't know something then to understand it you have to make an explanatory hypothesis which, at the moment of its creation, is formally 'wrong' in the sense that until evidence confirms it, it's not predictive yet. Over time your hypothesis acquires a body of evidence and you get to be 'right' in the sense of 'predictive'. That is, in order for a human to make sense of the world, you have to be able to be 'wrong'. Making wrong hypotheses is a double edged sword. 1) You get to be right post-hoc. but 2) On the down side, if you're an idiot that has a broken sense of what evidence is (...in the 1000 cognitive biases in Wikipedia and in the attached 'codex') then you get stuck with your own, pardon me, bullshit. Like religion, for example. In the brutal evolutionary 'get it right or die' process, evolution has favoured a creature like us that can be very wrong and use that exact ability to then get at the true nature of things. Later you become 'right'. I used this to great effect in a formal scientific account of scientific behaviour. Job done (I am right) :-) ..... or am I? So far the evidence is consistent with my hypothesis. It predicts exactly what your post is about: it predicts humans screwing up badly as a primary cognitive necessity to deal with the unknown. cheers colin On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:51 AM, Spike Jones wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > > > >?Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets > the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the > current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. > > ?Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit? bill w? > > > > > > This observation about survival of the fittest should have been stated > survival of the best adapted. > > > > If we are discussing humans, fitness in the traditional sense is nearly > irrelevant. The unfit prosper in the right environment, such as our > technically advanced world. People who are dependent on modern medical > technology for instance are likely to reside near a hospital, which implies > a big city, where reproductive opportunities are relatively plentiful. In > that sense, the unfit are better adapted to our world than the fittest. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1_71TzKnr7bzXU_l_pU6DCNA.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 497104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 15:00:47 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:00:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: <007401d41e07$7e724790$7b56d6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Job done (I am right) :-) ..... or am I? So far the evidence is consistent with my hypothesis. It predicts exactly what your post is about: it predicts humans screwing up badly as a primary cognitive necessity to deal with the unknown. cheers colin I can't see some of these biases as leading to anything but further bias, and maybe worse at that. Use the self-serving bias along with the fundamental attritutional error too much and you never understand the other people in the world. And it is unclear to me just how one gets out of the original biased decision/action. Some will stop at the first approximation - I call this 'good enough for who it's for' - and will be consistently wrong. Add the self-serving bias to this and you get a person who cannot admit he is wrong - who maybe knows it but has no way to get his ox out of his ditch. If one uses unbiased methods one can be wrong many times before one is right, but, like the scientists, he doggedly keeps with his methods and finally gets to the truth of things. In short, I don't see making biased decisions as a necessary first step. bill w On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Colin Hales wrote: > I wrote about this in my book. > > When you don't know something then to understand it you have to make an > explanatory hypothesis which, at the moment of its creation, is formally > 'wrong' in the sense that until evidence confirms it, it's not predictive > yet. Over time your hypothesis acquires a body of evidence and you get to > be 'right' in the sense of 'predictive'. That is, in order for a human to > make sense of the world, you have to be able to be 'wrong'. Making wrong > hypotheses is a double edged sword. > > 1) You get to be right post-hoc. > but > 2) On the down side, if you're an idiot that has a broken sense of what > evidence is (...in the 1000 cognitive biases in Wikipedia and in the > attached 'codex') then you get stuck with your own, pardon me, bullshit. > Like religion, for example. > > In the brutal evolutionary 'get it right or die' process, evolution has > favoured a creature like us that can be very wrong and use that exact > ability to then get at the true nature of things. Later you become 'right'. > I used this to great effect in a formal scientific account of scientific > behaviour. > > Job done (I am right) :-) ..... or am I? So far the evidence is consistent > with my hypothesis. It predicts exactly what your post is about: it > predicts humans screwing up badly as a primary cognitive necessity to deal > with the unknown. > > cheers > colin > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:51 AM, Spike Jones wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *William Flynn Wallace >> >> >> >> >?Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets >> the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the >> current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. >> >> ?Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit? bill w? >> >> >> >> >> >> This observation about survival of the fittest should have been stated >> survival of the best adapted. >> >> >> >> If we are discussing humans, fitness in the traditional sense is nearly >> irrelevant. The unfit prosper in the right environment, such as our >> technically advanced world. People who are dependent on modern medical >> technology for instance are likely to reside near a hospital, which implies >> a big city, where reproductive opportunities are relatively plentiful. In >> that sense, the unfit are better adapted to our world than the fittest. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 17:31:00 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:31:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 2:26 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ?> > *Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. * > Yes but random mutation and natural selection can only get you so far, future improvements will need a intelligent designer. Those mental flubs and errors you mentioned are good evidence that our minds were not made be a intelligent designer, much less a infinitely wise one. > ?>* ?* > *I hope it gets the chance.* I still think we have a fighting chance of reaching the singularity reasonably intact, although my confidence is only about a third what it was 2 years ago. ? John K Clark? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 17:51:38 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:51:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes but random mutation and natural selection can only get you so far, future improvements will need a intelligent designer. Those mental flubs and errors you mentioned are good evidence that our minds were not made be a intelligent designer, much less a infinitely wise one. > ?>* ?* > *I hope it gets the chance.* I still think we have a fighting chance of reaching the singularity reasonably intact, although my confidence is only about a third what it was 2 years ago. ? John K Clark? ? So, are you implying that artificial intelligence programs will teach us how to think, after, maybe much after the singularity? That they will expose all of our errors, cast them out and do the problems the right way? Programming themselves thus becomes a lesson for us in problem-solving, eh? I am reminded of the old story about the little girl who was taught that the computers did all the incredible work of mathematics to get the answers, to which she replied "But how do you know that they are the right answers?" bill w On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 12:31 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 2:26 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?> >> *Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. * >> > > Yes but random mutation and natural selection can only get you so far, > future improvements will need a intelligent designer. Those mental flubs > and errors you mentioned are good evidence that our minds were not made be > a intelligent designer, much less a infinitely wise one. > > >> ?>* ?* >> *I hope it gets the chance.* > > > I still think we have a fighting chance of reaching the singularity > reasonably intact, although my confidence is only about a third what it was > 2 years ago. > > ? John K Clark? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Jul 18 21:14:57 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:14:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking Message-ID: <49aba9d54484febdbdcd2d1318d4dff6.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Bill Wallace wrote: > My problem with these algorithms - they are patches. Maybe they were the > best that dna could come up with at the time, and as John says, they > work sometimes, mainly to maintain the status quo. That's where my > contrarian mind balks. At least some of these numerous cognitive biases might be more than evolutionary patches, Bill. It is within the realm of possibility that at least a few of these numerous cognitive biases might be vital to the independent agency of living organisms. That is to say, at least a few might be more of a structural cognitive necessity for YOU to exist as you know yourself that is to say as a separate distinct entity rather than simply being a "part of the earth" which of course you actually are. For example, I found it interesting that dogs fell prey to the sunk cost fallacy. That suggests some of these biases run pretty deep. Maybe some cognitive biases are necessary to maintain the abstraction of self where you are distinct from the tiger trying to eat you as opposed to simply being a more-or-less fungible part of your environment such as you actually are. Perhaps true objectivity cannot be distinguished from disassociative disorder. > The algorithms/patches are not, by far, nuanced thinking. Thus I think > that they are unworthy of advanced minds who will lead the culture, > whether it be scientific or something else ( I see no evidence that > advanced minds are leading popular culture). They do distort reality and > need improvement, or in many cases, disposal. I do appreciate you referring me to the wiki article, the codex is very informative and makes a great reference. Thanks. > But I do recognize that perhaps it could be argued that they were needed > in some form. Tribal level, I think. > > Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it gets > the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the > current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. ?Are we, in fact, > not losing the unfit? Evolution has no goal beyond seeing another day whether through your eyes or those of your offspring. Fitness is a moving target dependent on a changing environment and thus evolution has no particular predilection toward "advancement" as you would think of it. If the environment in question were the intestines of another living organism, then a tapeworm could be considered "advanced" by the standards of "fitness" imposed by that environment. That being said, our current environment is far more cultural and social than physical. We daily navigate an environment of abstractions to nearly the same degree that we do an environment of physical objects. Fitness is therefore more likely measured against abstract criteria such as societal laws, relationships and social status, as well as intangibles such as love rather than say speed, strength, disease resistance or some other physical criteria. > >> ?I guess that to refine my question might help: Just how do the biases >> help? It is very easy to see how such things as lying (not a >> cognitive bias) can be very beneficial. It is much harder, impossible >> to me in fact, to see how irrational thinking done by an individual can >> help his or her survival.? Perhaps, most, if not all, such biases are traits that persist not because they are currently adaptive but because thus far, they have not been selected against. That is to say they might not be maladaptive either, not in the society that we have wrought for ourselves. Of course, civilizations, such as ours, are not completely stable either, so then at least some "caveman biases" might become useful again someday. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Wed Jul 18 22:08:08 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:08:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Simulations and Fixed Points Message-ID: Sabrina Ballard wrote: > My issue with living in a simulation is more on the personal end. > > > Assuming it is run by something like a computer, with software and other > such things, then we sort of exist in a predicament. > > What if we get turned off/rebooted? > What if there is a glitch/bug? > What if there is a "hot" software update? Possibly all of the laws of > physics as we know them could suddenly change, etc... > > And, if reality is a simulation, then doesn't that mean "magic" and > "afterlife" actually could be real? After all, it's just software, so if > you think something hard enough, that could be part of the program, etc. > > The whole thing feels like an intellectual pandora's box to me. You are correct in this assessment. The simulation argument is a technocratic version of intelligent design. And as such it has all manner of inconvenient and somewhat disturbing ramifications. That being said, reality is not obligated to be convenient for us and so far nobody has successfully ruled it out. Furthermore, there are several independent lines of evidence that might be construed as suggestive of the SA. 1. Dr. James Gates discovered error correction codes, identical to those from computer science, in the equations of string theory governing the behavior of quarks and other subatomic particles. 2. Quantum mechanics predicts that energy and matter in the universe is quantitized into discrete chunks that can only be "seen" as integers. 3. General relativity predicts gravitational time-dilation which could be interpreted as the observed phenomenon that the more particles that are being processed in a given volume of space, the slower the frame rate of the particles' motions. 4. The Fermi paradox would seem a rational decision from the point of view of a software developer. 5. UFOs, religious phenomena, and all manner of purported paranormal shit being universally reported by all cultures through out history including the present day. Even if only 1 in a million are not hoaxes, lies, or confabulations, that is a still a lot. Just food for skeptical thought. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Thu Jul 19 02:27:02 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 19:27:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Planck vs Hubble Message-ID: <12d737225ac62ee7ee9cb9f32dd01295.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> https://physics.aps.org/articles/v11/40 https://astronomynow.com/2018/07/13/cosmic-mystery-deepens-with-conflicting-measurements-of-hubble-constant/ Excerpt: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Astronomers measuring how fast the cosmos is expanding in the wake of the Big Bang are still confronted with a baffling conflict between the value observed today and the value derived from observations of the extremely early Universe. Taking dark energy and the acceleration of the cosmic expansion into account, it would appear the modern Universe is flying apart faster than would be expected based on how fast it was moving shortly after the Big Bang. Using the Hubble Space Telescope and the European Space Agency?s Gaia observatory, researchers calculated a value for the Hubble constant, a measure of the expansion rate of the Universe, of 73.5 kilometres (45.6 miles) per second per million parses. That means that for every 3.3 million light years ? 1 million parsecs ? farther away a galaxy might be, it is moving away from us 73.5 kilometres per second faster. The measurement is remarkably precise, with an uncertainty of just 2.2 percent. But results from SA?s Planck spacecraft, based on observations of the microwave background radiation, the residual heat left over after the Big Bang, place the value of the Hubble constant at 67 kilometers per second per megaparsec." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This discrepancy of 9% between two measurements of the Hubble constant by two different methods, each claiming about 2% uncertainty is pretty crazy. Why would our cosmological models of the CMB from the Planck satellite predict such a smaller value for H than we observe using cephied variables with the HST? This would mean that our causal cell is smaller than it is supposed to be according to our models and the universe is expanding faster than we would predict using dark energy. I had earlier predicted that the vacuum energy density of space was constant through space but has varied over time since the big bang. I did this to explain the discrepancy of 120 orders of magnitude between QFT predicted vs observed values for the vacuum energy by predicting that the vacuum energy density and consequently pressure was much higher in the early universe than it is today. Furthermore that is what the Quantum guys were calculating for the vaccuum energy instead of today's value. Yet a cosmological time-dependent "field" instead of a cosmological constant would explain this discrepancy of measurements for the Hubble parameter as well. If the vaccuum energy density had once been higher than it is today, then the expansion today would be faster than we would predict using current values for the cosmological "constant". Stuart LaForge From col.hales at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 02:44:02 2018 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:44:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: <007401d41e07$7e724790$7b56d6b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu., 19 Jul. 2018, 1:01 am William Flynn Wallace, wrote: > Job done (I am right) :-) ..... or am I? So far the evidence is consistent > with my hypothesis. It predicts exactly what your post is about: it > predicts humans screwing up badly as a primary cognitive necessity to deal > with the unknown. > > cheers > colin > I can't see some of these biases as leading to anything but further bias, > and maybe worse at that. Use the self-serving bias along with the > fundamental attritutional error too much and you never understand the other > people in the world. > > And it is unclear to me just how one gets out of the original biased > decision/action. Some will stop at the first approximation - I call this > 'good enough for who it's for' - and will be consistently wrong. Add the > self-serving bias to this and you get a person who cannot admit he is wrong > - who maybe knows it but has no way to get his ox out of his ditch. > > If one uses unbiased methods one can be wrong many times before one is > right, but, like the scientists, he doggedly keeps with his methods and > finally gets to the truth of things. > > In short, I don't see making biased decisions as a necessary first step. > > bill w > Ok. Think of it as a general requirement for cognitive agents where individual or species-fatal unknowns can happen. If the agent is rigidly defined, choices are hard coded and never change. The behaviours may be complex. Yet there can be no bias (in the sense meant here) except that the agent may respond erroneously to deep novelty. Now imagine an agent that can adapt to novelty. Initially it is 'wrong' in some sense. Later it becomes 'right' in the sense of predictive. I am not claiming being wrong as a necessary first step. I am claiming that being wrong is a natural result of an encounter with the unknown. By definition. The problem happens when the agent fails to adapt to or even acknowledge evidence shedding light on the rectitude of choices it makes. If an agent is equipped to encounter and prevail over arbitrarily deep novelty, then it it automatically inherits a potential for state-trajectories into the BS -weeds, and in the absence of contrary evidence, may never escape. For example, being in a Facebook bubble or a religious sect or conspiracy-theory etc etc. This predisposition for being wrong first, and correcting, means novelty is less a threat to survival. A happy side effect is an ability to do science (where novelty is the food) and an ability to problem-solve, because 'problem' is another word for a kind of novelty. That's the sense I mean. If you 'gift' an agent absolute truth and all possible truths, then somewhere at the novelty boundary, your gift ends and your agent is clueless and powerless. Cheers Colin > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 7:18 PM, Colin Hales wrote: > >> I wrote about this in my book. >> >> When you don't know something then to understand it you have to make an >> explanatory hypothesis which, at the moment of its creation, is formally >> 'wrong' in the sense that until evidence confirms it, it's not predictive >> yet. Over time your hypothesis acquires a body of evidence and you get to >> be 'right' in the sense of 'predictive'. That is, in order for a human to >> make sense of the world, you have to be able to be 'wrong'. Making wrong >> hypotheses is a double edged sword. >> >> 1) You get to be right post-hoc. >> but >> 2) On the down side, if you're an idiot that has a broken sense of what >> evidence is (...in the 1000 cognitive biases in Wikipedia and in the >> attached 'codex') then you get stuck with your own, pardon me, bullshit. >> Like religion, for example. >> >> In the brutal evolutionary 'get it right or die' process, evolution has >> favoured a creature like us that can be very wrong and use that exact >> ability to then get at the true nature of things. Later you become 'right'. >> I used this to great effect in a formal scientific account of scientific >> behaviour. >> >> Job done (I am right) :-) ..... or am I? So far the evidence is >> consistent with my hypothesis. It predicts exactly what your post is about: >> it predicts humans screwing up badly as a primary cognitive necessity to >> deal with the unknown. >> >> cheers >> colin >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 5:51 AM, Spike Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* extropy-chat *On >>> Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Evolution did a great job but it has a long way to go. I hope it >>> gets the chance. 'Survival of the fittest' does not seem to describe the >>> current state of world affairs in the evolutionary sense. >>> >>> ?Are we, in fact, not losing the unfit? bill w? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> This observation about survival of the fittest should have been stated >>> survival of the best adapted. >>> >>> >>> >>> If we are discussing humans, fitness in the traditional sense is nearly >>> irrelevant. The unfit prosper in the right environment, such as our >>> technically advanced world. People who are dependent on modern medical >>> technology for instance are likely to reside near a hospital, which implies >>> a big city, where reproductive opportunities are relatively plentiful. In >>> that sense, the unfit are better adapted to our world than the fittest. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 03:45:01 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:45:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots Message-ID: I find this very encouraging, though ultimately, probably doomed to failure.... https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/thousands-of-scientists-pledge-not-to-help-build-killer-ai-robots/ar-AAAepMW?ocid=spartandhp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 04:33:35 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:33:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How to combat China's rise in tech- federal spending, and not tariffs Message-ID: "At the heart of the trade war between the United States and China, lies a profound and unsettling question: who should control the key technologies that will control tomorrow?" https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/how-to-combat-chinas-rise-in-tech-federal-spending-not-tariffs/ar-AAAfolF?ocid=spartandhp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Jul 19 03:53:41 2018 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:53:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Does anyone need a pass for The Assemblage event with me, Max, Seth and Tim tomorrow 7PM - 10PM? Message-ID: <006a01d41f14$15808c20$4081a460$@natasha.cc> H+ Members, Alcor members, ExI list and IEET friends: Here is the link to tomorrow's event: https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound Use the 100% fee code of Link: https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound/natasha Code: NATASHAUNBOUND (the code UNBOUND still works; this is one's just unique to me). So, you can use "UNBOUND" or "NATASHAUNBOUND". It will be an amazing event at such an incredible Manhattan high-tech meets consciousness of our human future. There will be no PowerPoints, talks, etc. It will be the four of us covering up-to-date topics and identifying the BS we are fed and discuss life-long learning about what it means to be human. I hope to see you there! All my best, Natasha Dr. Natasha Vita-More Executive Director, Humanity+, Inc. Author and Co-Editor: The Transhumanist Reader Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image009.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image010.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 04:35:49 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:35:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] This 1 chart puts mega tech's trillions of market value into eye-popping perspective Message-ID: "A picture is worth a thousand words but a pie chart may be more eloquent, especially when it comes to sizing up the giants of the tech industry." ?The gains have been extraordinary over the past five years, with Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft and Google growing from $1.2 trillion to near $4 trillion,? wrote Batnick in a recent blog entry, " https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/topstocks/this-1-chart-puts-mega-techs-trillions-of-market-value-into-eye-popping-perspective/ar-AAAhgt5?ocid=spartandhp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 04:39:12 2018 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:39:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Second_Annual_Pok=C3=A9mon_Go_Fest_Draws_Over_21?= =?utf-8?q?=2C000_Attendees?= Message-ID: Where do you see this technology going in ten years? Twenty years? ?The mood was infectious all weekend,? it said. ?The feelings of courtesy, kindness, and togetherness never left Lincoln Park, even as trainers filed out at the end of Sunday?s journey.? https://www.msn.com/en-us/entertainment/gaming/second-annual-pok?mon-go-fest-draws-over-21000-attendees/ar-AAAaCkG?ocid=spartandhp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose.cordeiro at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 15:37:09 2018 From: jose.cordeiro at gmail.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:37:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Does anyone need a pass for The Assemblage event with me, Max, Seth and Tim tomorrow? AND WELCOME TO MADRID IN OCTOBER 19-21 In-Reply-To: <1734387027.831078.1532011728216@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1832463518.687126.1531992549240@mail.yahoo.com> <00f001d41f6e$b3b23010$1b169030$@rainier66.com> <907373411.815262.1532011613058@mail.yahoo.com> <1734387027.831078.1532011728216@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <62467132.845456.1532014629515@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Natasha and Extropy friends, ?? ? ?I hope that you have a great time in New York, and I wish I could be there too:-) ?? ? ?Also let me welcome you all to the 20th anniversary celebration of TransVision / WTA / H+ during October 19-21 in Madrid, it will be immortal, so kindly share with your friends too, please:?TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 ? | | | | | | | | | | | TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 | | | | ?? ? ?Futuristically yours, ?? ? ?La vie est belle! ?Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org) ?Director, HumanityPlus (www.HumanityPlus.org)Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science (www.WorldAcademy.org)Director, The Millennium Project, Venezuela Node (www.Millennium-Project.org)Invited Professor, Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, Russia (www.mipt.ru)Founding Executive Director, Red Iberoamericana de Prospectiva, RIBER (www.riber.info)Founding Energy Advisor, Singularity University, NASA Research Park, California (www.su.org)Founder and President Emeritus, Sociedad Mundial del Futuro Venezuela (www.FuturoVenezuela.net) ?On Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:53 AM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: ?H+ Members, Alcor members, ExI list and IEET friends:?Here is the link to tomorrow?s event: https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound?Use the 100% fee code of Link:?https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound/natashaCode: NATASHAUNBOUND?(the code UNBOUND still works; this is one?s just unique to me).? So, you can use ?UNBOUND? or ?NATASHAUNBOUND?.?It will be an amazing event at such an incredible Manhattan high-tech meets consciousness of our human future. There will be no PowerPoints, talks, etc. It will be the four of us covering up-to-date topics and identifying the BS we are fed and discuss life-long learning about what it means to be human.?I hope to see you there!?All my best,Natasha?Dr. Natasha Vita-More???? Executive Director, Humanity+, Inc.???? Author and Co-Editor:? The Transhumanist Reader???? Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project???? Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT??? ?????? #yiv7399583143 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv7399583143 filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv7399583143 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143MsoNormal, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143MsoNormal, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 a:link, #yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7399583143 a:visited, #yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msonormal0, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msonormal0, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143apple-style-span {}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143Heading2Char {font-family:sans-serif;color:#2F5496;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143apple-style-span {}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msonormal, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msonormal, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msochpdefault, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msochpdefault, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143msohyperlink {}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143emailstyle17 {}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msonormal1, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msonormal1, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msonormal2, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msonormal2, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143msohyperlink1 {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143emailstyle171 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv7399583143 p.yiv7399583143msochpdefault1, #yiv7399583143 li.yiv7399583143msochpdefault1, #yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143apple-converted-space {}#yiv7399583143 span.yiv7399583143EmailStyle34 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv7399583143 .yiv7399583143MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv7399583143 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7399583143 div.yiv7399583143WordSection1 {}#yiv7399583143 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 840 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Thu Jul 19 14:48:48 2018 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:48:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] Does anyone need a pass for The Assemblage event with me, Max, Seth and Tim tomorrow? AND WELCOME TO MADRID IN OCTOBER 19-21 In-Reply-To: <907373411.815262.1532011613058@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1832463518.687126.1531992549240@mail.yahoo.com> <00f001d41f6e$b3b23010$1b169030$@rainier66.com> <907373411.815262.1532011613058@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1734387027.831078.1532011728216@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Natasha and Extropy friends, ?? ? ?I hope that you have a great time in New York, and I wish I could be there too:-) ?? ? ?Also let me welcome you all to the 20th anniversary celebration of TransVision / WTA / H+ during October 19-21 in Madrid, it will be immortal, so kindly share with your friends too, please:?TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 ? | | | | | | | | | | | TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 | | | | ?? ? ?Futuristically yours, ?? ? ?La vie est belle! ?Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org) ?Director, HumanityPlus (www.HumanityPlus.org)Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science (www.WorldAcademy.org)Director, The Millennium Project, Venezuela Node (www.Millennium-Project.org)Invited Professor, Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, Russia (www.mipt.ru)Founding Executive Director, Red Iberoamericana de Prospectiva, RIBER (www.riber.info)Founding Energy Advisor, Singularity University, NASA Research Park, California (www.su.org)Founder and President Emeritus, Sociedad Mundial del Futuro Venezuela (www.FuturoVenezuela.net) ?On Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:53 AM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: ?H+ Members, Alcor members, ExI list and IEET friends:?Here is the link to tomorrow?s event: https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound?Use the 100% fee code of Link:?https://events.theassemblage.com/humanityunbound/natashaCode: NATASHAUNBOUND?(the code UNBOUND still works; this is one?s just unique to me).? So, you can use ?UNBOUND? or ?NATASHAUNBOUND?.?It will be an amazing event at such an incredible Manhattan high-tech meets consciousness of our human future. There will be no PowerPoints, talks, etc. It will be the four of us covering up-to-date topics and identifying the BS we are fed and discuss life-long learning about what it means to be human.?I hope to see you there!?All my best,Natasha?Dr. Natasha Vita-More???? Executive Director, Humanity+, Inc.???? Author and Co-Editor:? The Transhumanist Reader???? Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project???? Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT??? ?????? #yiv4693640172 #yiv4693640172 -- filtered {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}#yiv4693640172 filtered {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}#yiv4693640172 filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172MsoNormal, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172MsoNormal, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 h2 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:18.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 a:link, #yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4693640172 a:visited, #yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msonormal0, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msonormal0, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172apple-style-span {}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172Heading2Char {font-family:sans-serif;color:#2F5496;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172apple-style-span {}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msonormal, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msonormal, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msonormal {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msochpdefault, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msochpdefault, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msochpdefault {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172msohyperlink {}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172msohyperlinkfollowed {}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172emailstyle17 {}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msonormal1, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msonormal1, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msonormal1 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msonormal2, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msonormal2, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msonormal2 {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172msohyperlink1 {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172msohyperlinkfollowed1 {color:#954F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172emailstyle171 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4693640172 p.yiv4693640172msochpdefault1, #yiv4693640172 li.yiv4693640172msochpdefault1, #yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172msochpdefault1 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172apple-converted-space {}#yiv4693640172 span.yiv4693640172EmailStyle34 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv4693640172 .yiv4693640172MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;}#yiv4693640172 filtered {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4693640172 div.yiv4693640172WordSection1 {}#yiv4693640172 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 921 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 840 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 17:35:41 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:35:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] review of Robin Hanson's new book Message-ID: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/07/23/can-economists-and-humanists-ever-be-friends?utm_source=pocket&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pockethits bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 21:00:23 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:00:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 11:27 AM, "Spike Jones" > wrote: snip > Billw, cog biases can be explained using evolutionary psychology, but one needs to call upon the controversial notion of group selection. Spike, "group selection" for humans fails to make logical sense. "Selection" means changes in gene frequency. Assume some human group, tribe, band, etc. managed to accumulate a favorable set of genes. The first thing they do is swap women (who carry the favorable set) with neighbors. Unless you want to call the whole human race a group, there can be no group selection with a species that practices exogamy > Strong arguments have been promoted that evolution only works on the individual level. I would argue that to explain easily-verifiable observations, such as cognitive biases, we must acknowledge that evolutionary selection does work at the group level, not just families, but particularly there. There is no reason to invoke group selection. "Inclusive fitness" as described by Hamilton and earlier by Haldane is enough to account for cognitive biases toward relatives. > Clarification: group selection works in those species which do work as groups. Alligators and flies and such: not. Lions, bees, orcas, humans, yes. Humans compete against other species, against other tribes, against each other and compete at the gene level. If common cog biases somehow benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans. I disagree. Gene survival alone is enough when you remember that copies of a gene for cog biases also exist in relatives. From the long term viewpoint of a gene, those copies are just as important as the local copies. As Haldane said, he should be willing to die if doing so would save more than two of his brothers or more than 8 of his cousins. Of course, humans don't come with 23andMe kits. So we make do by assuming that the people we grow up with are relatives to one degree or another. From giulio at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 08:42:20 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:42:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Physics_needs_a_reality_check=3A_Review_of_?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=98Lost_in_Math=E2=80=99_by_Sabine_Hossenfelder?= Message-ID: Physics needs a reality check: Review of ?Lost in Math? by Sabine Hossenfelder ?Lost in Math,? by Sabine Hossenfelder, is a good book, highly recommended... https://turingchurch.net/physics-needs-a-reality-check-review-of-lost-in-math-by-sabine-hossenfelder-79c579f2fe7d From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 16:58:43 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 12:58:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 11:45 PM, John Grigg wrote: *?> ?I find this very encouraging,* > ? I don't. I don't see why using a smart drone armed with one small bomb to target one specific room in one specific building is less moral than using thousands of large dumb bombs to carpet bomb an entire city. Suppose in 1945 instead of dropping 20,000 large dumb bombs on Dresden and killing at least 25,000 people they had instead dropped 10 very small smart bombs on Berlin and killed just 10 people, but those 10 people included Hitler and his top 9 cronies. Which action would be more moral? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 23:43:39 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 16:43:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 9:58 AM, John Clark wrote: > I don't see why using a smart drone armed with one small bomb to > target one specific room in one specific building is less moral than using > thousands of large dumb bombs to carpet bomb an entire city. As I understand it, the former being more moral - and thus easier to justify - is part of the claimed problem. If the military has these weapons that are so easy to justify using, they will use them more - allegedly, so many more times that they will wind up killing more people than in the relatively few times they can justify bombing an entire city. I suspect the numbers do not work out that way, but the objectors appear to believe they do. From avant at sollegro.com Sun Jul 22 01:00:39 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:00:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John Grigg wrote: > I find this very encouraging, though ultimately, probably doomed to > failure.... Killer AI robots are bad karma. Turing's Halting Problem pretty much makes it impossible to predict if or when a killer AI robot will ever stop killing. Set one loose after a terrorist network and it could go on a busy-beaver killing spree. Hell Killer AI robots would be an excellent candidate for the Great Filter. I suggest we always keep a human conscience on the trigger. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 14:03:57 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:03:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] robot morals Message-ID: Let's say the Singularity happens and the robots wipe out the human race. Will there be a morality? Right and wrong among the robots? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 21:10:26 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:10:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 9:00 PM, Stuart LaForge wrote: > ?>? > > > *Killer AI robots are bad karma. Turing's Halting Problem pretty much > makes it impossible to predict if or when a killer AI robot will ever stop > killing.? Set one loose after a terrorist network and it could go on a* *busy-beaver killing spree. * ?But humans are not immune from Turing's Halting Problem anymore than computers are. General Curtis Lemay went on a Busy Beaver style killing spree in 1945, in the firebombing of of Tokyo he killed killed at least 125,000 people. It was probably the bloodiest 6 hours in human history and he used nothing but dumb bombs, there was not a smart one in the bunch. Hell Killer AI robots would be an excellent > ? > candidate for the Great Filter. I disagree. The puzzling thing is the apparent lack of intelligence in the universe except on this planet ?,? and robots have intelligence. ?>? > *I suggest we always keep a human conscience on the trigger.* > ?I don't see how that would help. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 13:59:13 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 15:59:13 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Secret, staring at you: Valentin Turchin Message-ID: The Secret, staring at you: Valentin Turchin I have known for years that I should read ?The Phenomenon of Science,? by Valentin Turchin, but I have done so only recently. The book ends with a reflection on the possibility of resurrection... https://turingchurch.net/the-secret-staring-at-you-valentin-turchin-dbbcb0cf7b04 From avant at sollegro.com Tue Jul 24 18:36:06 2018 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:36:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Thousands of scientists pledge not to help build killer AI robots Message-ID: <81fa527e0f932187e7a5bd31926e815d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> John Clark wrote: > ?But humans are not immune from Turing's Halting Problem anymore than > computers are. General Curtis Lemay went on a Busy Beaver style killing > spree in 1945, in the firebombing of of Tokyo he killed killed at least > 125,000 people. It was probably the bloodiest 6 hours in human history > and he used nothing but dumb bombs, there was not a smart one in the > bunch. Yes, there have been some bloody men through out history. This Lemay fellow racked up quite a body count but it is dwarfed by the likes of Stalin or Temujin, who slew 5% of the world's population in his time. Yet they all stopped eventually. Killing for humans is usually a means to achieving some other end whether it be food, skins, gold, or political gain. Moreover all the bloodiest men in history were themselves vulnerable to harm and could have been stopped by those close to them with no more than a simple dagger. None of these considerations apply to the stainless steel death machines that I am talking about. >> ?Hell killer AI robots would be an excellent??candidate for the Great >> Filter. > > I disagree. The puzzling thing is the apparent lack of intelligence in > the universe except on this planet?,? and robots have intelligence. ? When I say "killer AI", I am not speaking of a post-singularity machine intelligence that decides to kill us to make room for a hyperspace bypass. I am talking about very narrow expert-level AI programmed to kill people here and how. Deep blue with a machine gun. This kind of AI has no other goal but to kill. If it succeeds in killing us all, it won't be out there building Dyson spheres and hailing other stars. It will simply go into a power-saving sleep mode until someone else to kill comes along. Such narrow killer AI robots might be the Great Filter that has prevented the singularity on many worlds. Stuart LaForge > > ?>?I suggest we always keep a human conscience on the trigger. > > > > ?I don't see how that would help. > John K Clark > > > ??? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | > > > From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 22:39:39 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 17:39:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] evolution and crazy thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now imagine an agent that can adapt to novelty. Initially it is 'wrong' in some sense. Later it becomes 'right' in the sense of predictive. I am not claiming being wrong as a necessary first step. I am claiming that being wrong is a natural result of an encounter with the unknown. By definition. Colin The agent that adapts to novelty is intelligence (in fact, some define intelligence this way). I studied mental retardation in grad school, and for the borderline MR it was often the case that they could learn as well as the average Ss, but when called on to transfer (generalize) that knowledge to a similar problem, they performed more poorly than the average Ss. (When they were prompted to use the prior skill they did so, but a third problem stumped them. They did not learn to generalize - for whatever reason - they had to be prompted each time. Thus they will do well in a work situation when closely supervised and prompted - btw - we could make far more use of the MR than we do now and enable some to live an independent existence (or for the worse off, semi-independent,like a halfway house) and use far less tax money). So it was not IQ per se that solved the problem, but the recognition that similar features were found in the new problem compared to the older one. An attention skill, if you will. The more similar the new problem to the old one, the more successful the old skill was at working the new one. I do not understand your second paragraph above. "By definition" What is being defined? Failure is not a forgone conclusion, as you said yourself. Now if by 'unknown' you mean that there are no features to something that resembles older situations, then there is no opportunity to generalize, and failure is a certainty, barring luck. bill w On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 4:00 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 11:27 AM, "Spike Jones" > > wrote: > > snip > > > Billw, cog biases can be explained using evolutionary psychology, but > one needs to call upon the controversial notion of group selection. > > Spike, "group selection" for humans fails to make logical sense. > "Selection" means changes in gene frequency. Assume some human group, > tribe, band, etc. managed to accumulate a favorable set of genes. The > first thing they do is swap women (who carry the favorable set) with > neighbors. Unless you want to call the whole human race a group, > there can be no group selection with a species that practices exogamy > > > Strong arguments have been promoted that evolution only works on the > individual level. I would argue that to explain easily-verifiable > observations, such as cognitive biases, we must acknowledge that > evolutionary selection does work at the group level, not just families, but > particularly there. > > There is no reason to invoke group selection. "Inclusive fitness" as > described by Hamilton and earlier by Haldane is enough to account for > cognitive biases toward relatives. > > > Clarification: group selection works in those species which do work as > groups. Alligators and flies and such: not. Lions, bees, orcas, humans, > yes. Humans compete against other species, against other tribes, against > each other and compete at the gene level. If common cog biases somehow > benefit the tribe, or the species, or promotes copulation (even at the > expense of the individual) it can explain why they persist in humans. > > I disagree. Gene survival alone is enough when you remember that > copies of a gene for cog biases also exist in relatives. From the > long term viewpoint of a gene, those copies are just as important as > the local copies. As Haldane said, he should be willing to die if > doing so would save more than two of his brothers or more than 8 of > his cousins. > > Of course, humans don't come with 23andMe kits. So we make do by > assuming that the people we grow up with are relatives to one degree > or another. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at ziaspace.com Fri Jul 27 02:45:36 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 02:45:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] List issues almost at an end :) Message-ID: Hi, This is a test message after we've restored our slightly expired domain. This should be a good warning to never use Network Solutions :P Soon we'l transfer the domain to another registrar and pre-register for ten years. It'll be nice to worry about this again in 2029. What will you be doing in 2029...? Your friendly systems administrator, John Klos -- I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of chaos and entropy. From giulio at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 14:20:44 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:20:44 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?= Message-ID: Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow himself to hope It?s impossible not to love Carl Sagan, a prophet and a poet of the space age. But why couldn?t he allow himself to hope?... https://turingchurch.net/prisoner-of-bad-philosophy-carl-sagan-couldnt-allow-himself-to-hope-a037ba0705e6 From pharos at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 08:51:53 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 09:51:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Prisoner_of_bad_philosophy=3A_Carl_Sagan_couldn?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99t_allow_himself_to_hope?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 July 2018 at 15:20, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Prisoner of bad philosophy: Carl Sagan couldn?t allow himself to hope > > It?s impossible not to love Carl Sagan, a prophet and a poet of the > space age. But why couldn?t he allow himself to hope?... > > https://turingchurch.net/prisoner-of-bad-philosophy-carl-sagan-couldnt-allow-himself-to-hope-a037ba0705e6 > _______________________________________________ Because hope is really just wishful thinking. Wishful thinking has some good uses of course. Many tasks would not be attempted without it. Often a task has to be done that is unappealing and seems likely to produce little benefit. But with a dash of wishful thinking, you might be lucky and things might turn out much better than expected. I expect even Sagan benefited from this outlook, judging by the projects he undertook. But death is a different class of task. It is a task where you are helpless and your own efforts are useless. Any good outcome is totally dependent on chance and systems that you have no knowledge of and that are totally outside your control. So resignation becomes appropriate. (Resignation - State of uncomplaining acceptance in the face of something undesirable but unavoidable). BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 15:24:30 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 08:24:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Seeing_Through_Synthetic_Biology=E2=80=99s_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCcUHJvamVjdCBGZWFy4oCd?= Message-ID: <3F877B35-B057-4819-8FE9-4B229440F67E@gmail.com> https://c4ss.org/content/51103 ?Alarm around synthetic biology reflects the threat this field poses to the concentrated power and increasingly-strained mandate of the nation-state. Government and corporate circles consistently portray anything that disrupts the concentration of their power and profitability as lawlessness tantamount to terrorism. There need not be evidence of an actual threat for them to sound the alarm.? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Fri Jul 27 18:50:01 2018 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:50:01 -0000 Subject: [ExI] [H+M] h+ Magazine "Radical Life Extension Leadership" - NEW article In-Reply-To: <003f01d424fd$04866770$0d933650$@natasha.cc> References: <003f01d424fd$04866770$0d933650$@natasha.cc> Message-ID: <1776061994.299380.1532710349251@mail.yahoo.com> Dear Natasha and friends, ? ? ?Excellent article! ? ? ?Looking forward to seeing at RAAD Fest in San Diego and at TransVision in Madrid:?TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 | | | | | | | | | | | TransVision ? International Event in Madrid, October 19-20-21, 2018 | | | | ?? ? ?Futuristically yours, ? ? ?La vie est belle! Jose Cordeiro, MBA, PhD?(www.cordeiro.org) Director, HumanityPlus (www.HumanityPlus.org)Fellow, World Academy of Art and Science (www.WorldAcademy.org)Director, The Millennium Project, Venezuela Node (www.Millennium-Project.org)Invited Professor, Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, Russia (www.mipt.ru)Founding Executive Director, Red Iberoamericana de Prospectiva, RIBER (www.riber.info)Founding Energy Advisor, Singularity University, NASA Research Park, California (www.su.org)Founder and President Emeritus, Sociedad Mundial del Futuro Venezuela (www.FuturoVenezuela.net) On Thursday, July 26, 2018 6:23 PM, Natasha Vita-More wrote: Hi ? ?I traced back the very beginnings of the life extension gatherings within our culture, the people who lead the way and the many experts who shared their knowledge with us.? What resulted is the article ?Radical Life Extension Leadership?. ?http://hplusmagazine.com/2018/07/22/radical-life-extension/ ?We will continue this discussion at the RAADFest in September, and at the TransVision Conferece in Madrid. Next steps are to join forces with international festivals that bring in thousands of people who want to know more about the ethical use of technology and evidence-based science.? I have spoken with Alcor, Maximum Life Foundation, and reaching out to IEET and others. ?Humanity+ will be steering a League of activists in 2019, but before then let?s continue to learn more and stay informed! ?Best,Natasha ?Dr. Natasha Vita-More???? Executive Director, Humanity+, Inc.???? Author and Co-Editor:? The Transhumanist Reader???? Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project???? Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT ??? ?????? ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Humanity+ Members" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to hplusmembers+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: