From pharos at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 16:11:34 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 16:11:34 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Bees - Neonicotinoids EU ban likely Message-ID: Total ban on bee-harming pesticides likely after major new EU analysis Analysis from EU?s scientific risk assessors finds neonicotinoids pose a serious danger to all bees, making total field ban highly likely Damian Carrington Environment editor Wed 28 Feb 2018 Quote: The conclusion, based on analysis of more than 1,500 studies, makes it highly likely that the neonicotinoid pesticides will be banned from all fields across the EU when nations vote on the issue next month. The report from the European Food Safety Authority (Efsa), published on Wednesday, found that the risk to bees varied depending on the crop and exposure route, but that ?for all the outdoor uses, there was at least one aspect of the assessment indicating a high risk.? Neonicotinoids, which are nerve agents, have been shown to cause a wide range of harm to bees, such as damaging memory and reducing queen numbers. Jose Tarazona, head of Efsa?s pesticides unit, said: ?The availability of such a substantial amount of data has enabled us to produce very detailed conclusions. There is variability in the conclusions [and] some low risks have been identified, but overall the risk to the three types of bees we have assessed is confirmed.? The Efsa assessment includes bumblebees and solitary bees for the first time. It also identified that high risk to bees comes not from neonicotinoid use on non-flowering crops such as wheat, but from wider contamination of the soil and water which leads to the pesticides appearing in wildflowers or succeeding crops. A recent study of honey samples revealed global contamination by neonicotinoids. ------------ BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 1 17:17:43 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 09:17:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Bees - Neonicotinoids EU ban likely In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00a501d3b181$3642c780$a2c85680$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK Subject: [ExI] Bees - Neonicotinoids EU ban likely Total ban on bee-harming pesticides likely after major new EU analysis Analysis from EU?s scientific risk assessors finds neonicotinoids pose a serious danger to all bees, making total field ban highly likely Damian Carrington Environment editor Wed 28 Feb 2018 Quote: The conclusion, based on analysis of more than 1,500 studies, makes it highly likely that the neonicotinoid pesticides will be banned from all fields across the EU when nations vote on the issue next month. ... BillK ------------ Thanks BillK, Let's hope this is a major factor and a European ban demonstrates improvement in bee health. If so, the states will follow and Australia and everywhere else except Africa (they generally don't listen much to us.) I wasn't aware of the complicating factor: neonics are persistent in the soil and come up with the subsequent crop. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 1 19:22:00 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Trump=E2=80=99s_buddy_has_a_nuclear-powered_crui?= =?utf-8?q?se_missile?= Message-ID: Vladimir Putin just announced he has a hypersonic cruise missile, he says its a ramjet and its nuclear-powered. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/03/01/what-russias-newly-announced-nuclear-systems-actually-mean/?utm_term=.8cb1e132ed18 It sounds very much like Project Pluto that the USA considered building in the late 1950s. Pluto was a nuclear powered ramjet that flew at low altitudes to avoid radar at 3 times the speed of sound. It was suposed to be able to stay airborne for weeks at a time if needed and deliver a 6,400 pound warhead anywhere in the world. The project was abandoned when it was realized the warhead was not necessary, the exhaust from the nuclear ramjet was so radioactive it would devastate anything it flew over, friendly territory as well as enemy. This is an old promotional film from 1959 promoting the wonders of Project Pluto, also called The Big Stick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_SCuPId8KA John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 14:54:59 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 09:54:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible Message-ID: Nothing Earth shattering here, but interesting nonetheless. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.02180.pdf *Abstract* *A complex message from space may require the use of computers to display, analyze and understand. Such a message cannot be decontaminated with certainty, and technical risks remain which can pose an existential threat. Complex messages would need to be destroyed in the risk averse case.* *...* *While it has been argued that sustainable ETI is unlikely to be harmful (Baum et al. 2011), we can not exclude this possibility. After all, it is cheaper for ETI to send a malicious message to eradicate humans compared to sending battleships.If ETI exist, there will be a plurality of good and bad civilizations. Perhaps there are few bad ETI, but we cannot know for sure the intentions of the senders of a message. Consequently, there have been calls that SETI signals need to be ?decontaminated? (Carrigan 2004, 2006).In this paper, we show that it is impossible to decontaminate a message with certainty. Instead, complex messages would need to be destroyed after reception in the risk averse case....6. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSIONAs we realize that some message types are potentially dangerous, we can adapt our own peaceful transmissions accordingly. We should certainly not transmit any code. Instead, a plain text encyclopedia (Heidmann 1993), images, music etc. in a simple format are adequate. Noadvanced computer should be required to decrypt our message.Our main argument is that a message from ETI cannot be decontaminated with certainty. For anything more complex than easily printable images or plain text, the technical risks are impossible to assess beforehand. We may only choose to destroy such a message, or take the risk. The risk for humanity may be small, but not zero. The probability of encountering malicious ETI first might be very low. Perhaps it is much more likely to receive a message from positive ETI. Also, the potential benefits from joining a galactic network might be considerable (Baum 2014).It is always wise to understand the risks and chances beforehand, and make a conscious choice for, or against it, rather than blindly following a random path. Overall, we believe that the risk is very small (but not zero), and the potential benefit very large, so that we strongly encourage to read an incoming message.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 17:18:35 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 11:18:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > *?> ?I fail to see how all those statistics you gave about the Muslims > support your case for genetics. bill w* > ?But it does support my case that I wasn't ? ?stereotyping Muslims as you claimed I was, ? john Nope - you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very tiny part of the Muslim world, no matter what people say on surveys. A few thousand out of a billion Muslims - yes, that's stereotyping bill w Yes, people learn quite well starting from before birth. But that does not make a case for genetic tendencies to learn from parents and to obey them. A generalized learning ability, genetic, of course, can take care of that easily. (There are specialized ones, too, like in prepared learning - phobias). It is also easy to learn contrary opinions from others. What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? When the parents disagree with the holy person? They grow up confused with all the opinions available, and that's why we think teens are confused -they are. They have learned some contradictory things from parents and other adults. But a main form of their learning, as several books show, including Judith Harris', is from peers. Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear fact that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and is very often wrong (I taught sex. I know how wrong they can be and where they got that 'knowledge'. Not from adults.) If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's mostly gone by the teen years. Religions survive, I think, because of social pressure of one kind or another - family, mostly, including extended family. What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who he is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly thereafter. Family, tribe, state, nation, etc. All exerting social pressure to be like the others in your affiliations. bill w On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 4:07 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 1:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?>>? >>> ? >>> if the devout didn't think the very young didn't have such a tendency >>> they would not place such emphasis on having religious grade schools and >>> even religious kindergarten. >> >> >> ?>* ?* >> *I'd say that that was a good argument for the opposite: believing that >> environment had to install the values. * >> > > I'd say the environment had to install the values? too, and the most > important part of that environment is what adults say. And what adults say > now depends on what their mommy and daddy ?said to them many years before. > > >> *?> ?and I'll bet it doesnt' work very well.* > > > *WHAT?!* If indoctrinating the young didn't work extraordinarily well how > on earth could Christianity have survived for 2000 years when it doesn't > make one particle of sense? Think about it, God is homicidally angry with > the entire human race because one man was naughty and ate an apple when > told not to, and even though He is omnipotent He is unable to forgive them > unless they torture His son, who He loves very much, to death. Only after > they've finished with the butchery and His son has died in agony can the > atrocity of eating the apple be forgiven > > >> *?> ?I fail to see how all those statistics you gave about the Muslims >> support your case for genetics. * >> > > ?But it does support my case that I wasn't ? > ?stereotyping Muslims as you claimed I was, ? > > ?>? >> *People are not sheep.* > > > ?The two things are not identical but there are certainly similarities .? > > > >> *?> ?you don't need genes here except for those involved in learning, >> esp. social learning - who tells who what to do is noticed by tots and up. * >> > > If the tots didn't believe that what they were told was true there would > be nothing to learn socially. ? > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 19:27:04 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 11:27:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not really. Just yet more hype mongering. "OMG OMG ANNNYTHING IS POSSIBLE THE SKY COULD BE FALLING OMG!" As they say, we have literally no data about extraterrestrial intelligences (other than that we have shown that certain types - with transmissions we can recognize - do not exist in most of the galaxy). Any path we choose is thus essentially random, no matter what justification we think we have. On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > Nothing Earth shattering here, but interesting nonetheless. > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.02180.pdf > > Abstract > > A complex message from space may require the use of computers to display, > analyze and understand. Such a message cannot be decontaminated with > certainty, and technical risks remain which can pose an existential threat. > Complex messages would need to be destroyed in the risk averse case. > > ... > > While it has been argued that sustainable ETI is unlikely > to be harmful (Baum et al. 2011), we can not exclude > this possibility. After all, it is cheaper for ETI to > send a malicious message to eradicate humans compared > to sending battleships. > > If ETI exist, there will be a plurality of good and bad > civilizations. Perhaps there are few bad ETI, but we > cannot know for sure the intentions of the senders of a > message. Consequently, there have been calls that SETI > signals need to be ?decontaminated? (Carrigan 2004, > 2006). > > In this paper, we show that it is impossible to decontaminate > a message with certainty. Instead, complex > messages would need to be destroyed after reception in > the risk averse case. > > ... > > 6. DISCUSSION AND CONCLUSION > > As we realize that some message types are potentially > dangerous, we can adapt our own peaceful transmissions > accordingly. We should certainly not transmit any code. > Instead, a plain text encyclopedia (Heidmann 1993), images, > music etc. in a simple format are adequate. No > advanced computer should be required to decrypt our > message. > > Our main argument is that a message from ETI cannot > be decontaminated with certainty. For anything > more complex than easily printable images or plain text, > the technical risks are impossible to assess beforehand. > We may only choose to destroy such a message, or take > the risk. The risk for humanity may be small, but not > zero. The probability of encountering malicious ETI > first might be very low. Perhaps it is much more likely > to receive a message from positive ETI. Also, the potential > benefits from joining a galactic network might be > considerable (Baum 2014). > > It is always wise to understand the risks and chances > beforehand, and make a conscious choice for, or against > it, rather than blindly following a random path. Overall, > we believe that the risk is very small (but not zero), > and the potential benefit very large, so that we strongly > encourage to read an incoming message. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 19:33:32 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 14:33:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >* you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very > tiny part of the Muslim world,* Then I will do so now. Most Muslims are not terrorists but most terrorists are Muslims. Yes, active terrorists make up a small percentage of the Muslim world, but the percentage that are terrorist enablers and sympathizers is not small at all, it approaches a majority in many countries. > *> no matter what people say on surveys. * So what are you saying, you already know the truth and don't want to be confused by the facts? I don?t understand why so many people feel it is their duty to perform logical contortions if that?s what it takes to avoid criticizing religion. You?re free to criticize a person's politics or their knowledge or their intelligence or their personality or even their personal hygiene, but don?t dare criticize their religion, if you do then that means you're a bad person. I don?t get it. > > *Yes, people learn quite well starting from before birth. But that > does not make a case for genetic tendencies to learn from parents and to > obey them. * As I?ve said over and over, not a tendency to obey adults but a tendency to believe what they say is true, especially in things involving morality and general philosophy > *> A generalized learning ability, genetic, of course, can take care of > that easily.* And how can very young children learn if they don?t believe anything adults tell them? > * > It is also easy to learn contrary opinions from others. * I agree with that, parents aren?t the only people children learn from, perhaps even more important is the opinion of other children, but the other children got their opinions from others too. > * > What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? * Historically it was pretty rare for parents to disagree about religion, in fact historically disagreements by anybody over anything religious were illegal. > *> Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear fact > that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and is > very often wrong * The type of learning I?m talking about now isn?t about learning facts, its about learning opinions and values and a philosophy of life. > *> If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's mostly > gone by the teen years.* By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. > *> What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who he > is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly > thereafter. * I know, people are put (or they put themselves) into categories depending on religious franchise, and that melancholy fact has cause more misery in the world than anything else except for death itself. ? ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 2 19:56:28 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:56:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:33 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > >* you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very >> tiny part of the Muslim world,* > > Then I will do so now. Most Muslims are not terrorists but most terrorists > are Muslims. Yes, active terrorists make up a small percentage of the > Muslim world, but the percentage that are terrorist enablers and > sympathizers is not small at all, it approaches a majority in many > countries. > ?I can agree with that. bill w? *> no matter what people say on surveys. * > > So what are you saying, you already know the truth and don't want to be > confused by the facts? > ? john? > > ?What? I do know what people say on surveys is often a response calculated to impress the reader that the surveyed person is conforming with his culture. That may, or may NOT, be the case with the Muslim surveys, but given the pressure and the penalties to conform, I'd be very suspect of drawing major conclusion from that kind of data. Not to toss it out - just to be suspicious of it.? bill w > I don?t understand why so many people feel it is their duty to perform > logical contortions if that?s what it takes to avoid criticizing > religion. You?re free to criticize a person's politics or their knowledge > or their intelligence or their personality or even their personal hygiene, > but don?t dare criticize their religion, if you do then that means you're a > bad person. I don?t get it. > ?JOhn > > ?I wonder if you are talking about me. The closest person I know who has opinions like mine on religion is Christopher Hitchens, and I don't mind airing my opinions anywhere. bill w? > ? > As I?ve said over and over, not a tendency to obey adults but a tendency > to believe what they say is true, especially in things involving morality > and general philosophy > ?john > > ?Are you saying that a tendency to believe moral things is different from, say, what parents tell them about music or using the microwave? If you are, that could be true, as those things are more important in a way. But I also say that changes to what parents taught is rampant, starting in teen years, and continued in college dorm discussions. bill w? > And how can very young children learn if they don?t believe anything > adults tell them? > ? John > > ?I never said that. Perhaps things like that are put in memory, and maybe tentatively believed, or maybe stored as the default, and taken out when supportive or contradictory opinions are expressed and examined. bill w? > ? > > ?======================= will respond to the below later bill w? > * > What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? * > > Historically it was pretty rare for parents to disagree about religion, in > fact historically disagreements by anybody over anything religious were > illegal. > >> *> Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear fact >> that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and is >> very often wrong * > > The type of learning I?m talking about now isn?t about learning facts, its > about learning opinions and values and a philosophy of life. > >> *> If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's mostly >> gone by the teen years.* > > By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell > them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they > will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without > question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. > >> *> What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who he >> is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly >> thereafter. * > > I know, people are put (or they put themselves) into categories depending > on religious franchise, and that melancholy fact has cause more misery in > the world than anything else except for death itself. > > ? ? > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Fri Mar 2 21:10:56 2018 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:10:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.02180.pdf Here's a good example of how such a lethal message might work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 00:27:00 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 19:27:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Truly the decade of the fan theory. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 15:29:29 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 09:29:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. john On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:33 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >* you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very >>> tiny part of the Muslim world,* >> >> Then I will do so now. Most Muslims are not terrorists but most >> terrorists are Muslims. Yes, active terrorists make up a small percentage >> of the Muslim world, but the percentage that are terrorist enablers and >> sympathizers is not small at all, it approaches a majority in many >> countries. >> > > ?I can agree with that. bill w? > > *> no matter what people say on surveys. * >> >> So what are you saying, you already know the truth and don't want to be >> confused by the facts? >> ? john? >> >> ?What? I do know what people say on surveys is often a response > calculated to impress the reader that the surveyed person is conforming > with his culture. That may, or may NOT, be the case with the Muslim > surveys, but given the pressure and the penalties to conform, I'd be very > suspect of drawing major conclusion from that kind of data. Not to toss it > out - just to be suspicious of it.? bill w > > > >> I don?t understand why so many people feel it is their duty to perform >> logical contortions if that?s what it takes to avoid criticizing >> religion. You?re free to criticize a person's politics or their knowledge >> or their intelligence or their personality or even their personal hygiene, >> but don?t dare criticize their religion, if you do then that means you're a >> bad person. I don?t get it. >> ?JOhn >> >> > ?I wonder if you are talking about me. The closest person I know who has > opinions like mine on religion is Christopher Hitchens, and I don't mind > airing my opinions anywhere. bill w? > >> ? >> As I?ve said over and over, not a tendency to obey adults but a tendency >> to believe what they say is true, especially in things involving morality >> and general philosophy >> ?john >> >> > ?Are you saying that a tendency to believe moral things is different from, > say, what parents tell them about music or using the microwave? If you > are, that could be true, as those things are more important in a way. But > I also say that changes to what parents taught is rampant, starting in teen > years, and continued in college dorm discussions. bill w? > >> And how can very young children learn if they don?t believe anything >> adults tell them? >> ? John >> >> > ?I never said that. Perhaps things like that are put in memory, and maybe > tentatively believed, or maybe stored as the default, and taken out when > supportive or contradictory opinions are expressed and examined. bill w? > >> ? >> >> ?======================= will respond to the below later bill w? > > > >> * > What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? * >> >> Historically it was pretty rare for parents to disagree about religion, >> in fact historically disagreements by anybody over anything religious were >> illegal. >> >>> *> Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear >>> fact that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and >>> is very often wrong * >> >> The type of learning I?m talking about now isn?t about learning facts, >> its about learning opinions and values and a philosophy of life. >> >>> *> If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's >>> mostly gone by the teen years.* >> >> By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults >> tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and >> they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life >> without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their >> children. >> >>> *> What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who he >>> is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly >>> thereafter. * >> >> I know, people are put (or they put themselves) into categories depending >> on religious franchise, and that melancholy fact has cause more misery in >> the world than anything else except for death itself. >> >> ? ? >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 15:32:26 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 09:32:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. john I think this is seriously mistaken - no , just flat wrong. However, I am no longer interested enough in this conversation to do the research to prove this very wrong, though if you are, and you get data supporting this extremist view, I will be happy to read it. Not exactly a proponent of free will, are you? bill w. On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:29 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell > them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they > will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without > question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. > john > > On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:33 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:18 PM, William Flynn Wallace < >>> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >* you did not react to my statement that Muslim terrorists were a very >>>> tiny part of the Muslim world,* >>> >>> Then I will do so now. Most Muslims are not terrorists but most >>> terrorists are Muslims. Yes, active terrorists make up a small percentage >>> of the Muslim world, but the percentage that are terrorist enablers and >>> sympathizers is not small at all, it approaches a majority in many >>> countries. >>> >> >> ?I can agree with that. bill w? >> >> *> no matter what people say on surveys. * >>> >>> So what are you saying, you already know the truth and don't want to be >>> confused by the facts? >>> ? john? >>> >>> ?What? I do know what people say on surveys is often a response >> calculated to impress the reader that the surveyed person is conforming >> with his culture. That may, or may NOT, be the case with the Muslim >> surveys, but given the pressure and the penalties to conform, I'd be very >> suspect of drawing major conclusion from that kind of data. Not to toss it >> out - just to be suspicious of it.? bill w >> >> >> >>> I don?t understand why so many people feel it is their duty to perform >>> logical contortions if that?s what it takes to avoid criticizing >>> religion. You?re free to criticize a person's politics or their knowledge >>> or their intelligence or their personality or even their personal hygiene, >>> but don?t dare criticize their religion, if you do then that means you're a >>> bad person. I don?t get it. >>> ?JOhn >>> >>> >> ?I wonder if you are talking about me. The closest person I know who has >> opinions like mine on religion is Christopher Hitchens, and I don't mind >> airing my opinions anywhere. bill w? >> >>> ? >>> As I?ve said over and over, not a tendency to obey adults but a tendency >>> to believe what they say is true, especially in things involving morality >>> and general philosophy >>> ?john >>> >>> >> ?Are you saying that a tendency to believe moral things is different >> from, say, what parents tell them about music or using the microwave? If >> you are, that could be true, as those things are more important in a way. >> But I also say that changes to what parents taught is rampant, starting in >> teen years, and continued in college dorm discussions. bill w? >> >>> And how can very young children learn if they don?t believe anything >>> adults tell them? >>> ? John >>> >>> >> ?I never said that. Perhaps things like that are put in memory, and >> maybe tentatively believed, or maybe stored as the default, and taken out >> when supportive or contradictory opinions are expressed and examined. bill >> w? >> >>> ? >>> >>> ?======================= will respond to the below later bill w? >> >> >> >>> * > What do tots and teens think when their parents disagree? * >>> >>> Historically it was pretty rare for parents to disagree about religion, >>> in fact historically disagreements by anybody over anything religious were >>> illegal. >>> >>>> *> Peers, while one is a teen, outrank everybody, despite the clear >>>> fact that one's peers often don't know any more than the person does, and >>>> is very often wrong * >>> >>> The type of learning I?m talking about now isn?t about learning facts, >>> its about learning opinions and values and a philosophy of life. >>> >>>> *> If there is any genetic tendency to hear and obey parents, it's >>>> mostly gone by the teen years.* >>> >>> By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults >>> tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and >>> they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life >>> without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their >>> children. >>> >>>> *> What does a person say when he is asked, or asks himself, just who >>>> he is? Religions affiliation is usually noted, if not first, then, shortly >>>> thereafter. * >>> >>> I know, people are put (or they put themselves) into categories >>> depending on religious franchise, and that melancholy fact has cause more >>> misery in the world than anything else except for death itself. >>> >>> ? ? >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 15:57:24 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 10:57:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > John Clark wrote: > >By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults tell > them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and they > will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life without > question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their children. > > I think this is seriously mistaken - no , just flat wrong. However, I am > no longer interested enough in this conversation to do the research to > prove this very wrong, though if you are, and you get data supporting this > extremist view, I will be happy to read it. Not exactly a proponent of > free will, are you? > I'm not sure what you think is wrong or how free will is involved, but there's abundant, obvious evidence that children learn and believe "ridiculous religious crap" from their parents. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 16:05:42 2018 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 09:05:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible Message-ID: Just a little comment. When in the sessions of sweet silent thought I mused over the Von Neumann probe notion, pondering the hows and whys of such a "colonization" effort, I envisioned the probe as the tiniest little beastie. You know, ultra-low mass, speeding along as close to the speed of light as possible. How then to deal with the deceleration issue? How to put the probe, or associated payload down on the stepping-stone planet in that far away solar system? How to effect the self-replication essential to a Von Neumann probe colonization effort? Well, here we see a limited class of solution. In the case of a highly Advanced technological civilization, the Von Neumann probe merely has to send down the appropriate digital package to hijack some of the extant resources on the planet below. As it approaches such a planet, it evaluates the level of Technology, and prepares the hijack package. Then a flyby is all it takes. Then, it's either an assault by grey goo to overcome defenses, or something more subtle. In the case of an uninhabited, or pre-industrial planet however, the deceleration issue remains. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 16:25:07 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:25:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > * > it is cheaper for ETI to send a malicious message to eradicate humans > compared to sending battleships.* Battleships are obsolete, a Von Neumann Probe that weighed less than an ounce could, if properly programed, eradicate the entire human race and it would be almost as cheap as a message and much more reliable,...except that...well...what would be the point? What do we have that ET wants? There is quite literally an astronomically huge amount of matter and energy that is going to waste in the universe that is not being controlled by any intelligent agency, so why does ET need the ridiculously paltry amount that we?re using? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 16:40:11 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:40:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > *> Not exactly a proponent of free will, are you?* Tell me what the hell ?free will? means and I?ll tell you if I?m a proponent of it or not. No idea in philosophy or psychology or law has caused more muddled thinking than free will, it is an idea so bad its not even wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 17:14:36 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 09:14:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 3, 2018, at 8:25 AM, John Clark wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Dave Sill wrote: >> >> > it is cheaper for ETI to send a malicious message to eradicate humans compared to sending battleships. > Battleships are obsolete, a Von Neumann Probe that weighed less than an ounce could, if properly programed, eradicate the entire human race and it would be almost as cheap as a message and much more reliable,...except that...well...what would be the point? What do we have that ET wants? There is quite literally an astronomically huge amount of matter and energy that is going to waste in the universe that is not being controlled by any intelligent agency, so why does ET need the ridiculously paltry amount that we?re using? > I?ve not been following this discussion closely, so forgive me if I?m repeating something already posted and maybe even refitted... The usual reasons I see for why ETI might be hostile are that it fears exponential growth of another civilization (simply that eventually it and the other civilization will compete over resources or location so why not nip it in the bud) or that it fears another civilization might view it this way (as eventually competing with it ? even if it (the ETI) plans to be completely friendly/cooperative/noncompetitive). I?m not saying I accept either. I actually believe the benefits of contact and cooperation outweigh those of hostility and aggression. (I?m not saying the benefits are likely do great that an ETI would invest huge efforts into scouring or scouting the universe for potential contact or for trading partners or whatnot. Then again, looking at the tiny amount of resources human civilization devoted and devotes to anthropology.) Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 17:35:48 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 12:35:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > *> I mused over the Von Neumann probe notion, pondering the hows and whys > of such a "colonization" effort, I envisioned the probe as the tiniest > little beastie. You know, ultra-low mass, speeding along as close to the > speed of light as possible. How then to deal with the deceleration issue? * There is no need for a Von Neumann Probe to be moving anywhere near the speed of light, the speed we've already achieved with the Voyager spacecraft would be sufficient, and given that the payload would weigh less than an ounce you wouldn't need a very big rocket to decelerate it, especially if you were on a clever trajectory that used the gravity of the planets in orbit around the star to help it slow down. Or maybe, because its so small, it would be better to put a heat shield around the payload and just let the planets atmosphere slow it down. By sending just one such probe to one star ET could completely reengineer the Galaxy beyond recognition by placing A Dyson Sphere around ever star in it in just 50 million years, a very short time astronomically speaking. But our galaxy has not been engineered nor has any in the observable universe, that makes me conclude one of two things must be true: 1) We are the first. 2) Something always destroys a civilization at just about the point we?re at right now. If the answer is #2 that something in our case may be a thing called "Donald Trump". The night after Vladimir Putin announced he had a nuclear powered cruise missile and showed a video of it dropping H-bombs on Florida Trump couldn?t sleep, so at 6am he tweeted what was troubling him, Alex Baldwins impersonation on Saturday Night Live. I don?t know about you but having an imbecile be the most powerful man in the world is really starting to scare the hell out of me. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 17:49:32 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:49:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure what you think is wrong or how free will is involved, but there's abundant, obvious evidence that children learn and believe "ridiculous religious crap" from their parents. -Dave That's true. But I am far from convinced that it never changes, as John would have it. John seems to think that children implant ideas and they are adamant against change. I strongly disagree. Let me see some data on how far-out ideas don't change. Or any ideas that escape changes with the passing years. Ideas are like memories. They are memories. When we pull out a memory we change it to a certain extent before putting it back. So memories change, distort over the years as a result of simply remembering them. If you have not experienced conflict between you and other people re old memories, then I would think you have not been to a high school reunion. I did not get a Ph. D. in social psychology and persuasive communications (attitude change) for nothing. But I do not think you will want to have me give you the full lecture on this topic. Many, many pages. To John - all I meant by free will was that a person could examine his beliefs in light of the evidence of his experiences and his reading and other sources of information, and change them. He is not stuck with any implanted ideas that occurred earlier in his life. bill w On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> John Clark wrote: >> > >By the teen years they no longer take it for granted that what adults >> tell them is true, but by then its too late, the damage has been done and >> they will believe ridiculous religious crap for the rest of their life >> without question. And they will teach the exact same bullshit to their >> children. >> >> I think this is seriously mistaken - no , just flat wrong. However, I am >> no longer interested enough in this conversation to do the research to >> prove this very wrong, though if you are, and you get data supporting this >> extremist view, I will be happy to read it. Not exactly a proponent of >> free will, are you? >> > > I'm not sure what you think is wrong or how free will is involved, but > there's abundant, obvious evidence that children learn and believe > "ridiculous religious crap" from their parents. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 18:17:12 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 13:17:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Interstellar message decontamination is impossible In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:14 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > The usual reasons I see for why ETI might be hostile are that it fears > exponential growth of another civilization (simply that eventually it and > the other civilization will compete over resources or location so why not > nip it in the bud) or that it fears another civilization might view it this > way as eventually competing with it If ET is already way ahead of us and if civilizations grow exponentially, and I think they would barring some catastrophe , then they?re always going to be way ahead of us and ET has no reason to fear us. But if civilizations grow exponentially why are ?our? ? telescopes unable to find the slightest hint of them, not in our galaxy and not anywhere else either? Perhaps because they don?t exist and we?re the first, after all somebody has to be. Or maybe its because ET has their own version of Donald Trump. I first said about 2 years ago that Donald Trump was a ?n? existential issue, and I have even more reason to believe it now than I did then. ? ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 19:56:43 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 11:56:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] de Waal Message-ID: John Clark wrote > Tell me what the hell ?free will? means and I?ll tell you if I?m a proponent of it or not. No idea in philosophy or psychology or law has caused more muddled thinking than free will, it is an idea so bad its not even wrong. I am with John on "so bad it's in even wrong." Marvin Minsky has probably put this subject to bed better than anyone else. I certainly didn't expect this subject to degenerate into a muddle. It's obvious people have some variable but widespread propensity for being infested with religion, and it's different from normal passing on of information about the world from generation to generation. It also is quite clear there is a genetic basis. Mormons were selected in this regard a few generations back. People of this genetic background are considerably over represented in Scientology. It also may have to do with brain reward chemistry because Scientologists are considerably more likely than the general population to be smokers. Assuming religiosity has a genetic basis, it's either something that was directly selected or a side effect of some trait that was directly selected. I tend to go with the latter. Given the prevalence, it must have been a selection on the similar level of intensity as that which gives us the human trait of capture-bonding. Since religions are (at the heart of them) xenophobic memes, of what survival use was it in our stone-age past (at least under some situations) to be susceptible to xenophobic memes? Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 20:59:08 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 14:59:08 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Show me the data that religious beliefs are different socially and genetically from other beliefs and attitudes. In any case you cannot show me that there are beliefs that do not change. bill w On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > John Clark wrote > > > Tell me what the hell ?free will? means and I?ll tell you if I?m a > proponent of it or not. No idea in philosophy or psychology or law has > caused more muddled thinking than free will, it is an idea so bad its not > even wrong. > > I am with John on "so bad it's in even wrong." Marvin Minsky has > probably put this subject to bed better than anyone else. > > I certainly didn't expect this subject to degenerate into a muddle. > It's obvious people have some variable but widespread propensity for > being infested with religion, and it's different from normal passing > on of information about the world from generation to generation. > > It also is quite clear there is a genetic basis. Mormons were > selected in this regard a few generations back. People of this > genetic background are considerably over represented in Scientology. > It also may have to do with brain reward chemistry because > Scientologists are considerably more likely than the general > population to be smokers. > > Assuming religiosity has a genetic basis, it's either something that > was directly selected or a side effect of some trait that was directly > selected. I tend to go with the latter. > > Given the prevalence, it must have been a selection on the similar > level of intensity as that which gives us the human trait of > capture-bonding. Since religions are (at the heart of them) > xenophobic memes, of what survival use was it in our stone-age past > (at least under some situations) to be susceptible to xenophobic > memes? > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 21:48:56 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:48:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > * ?> ?Let me see some data on how far-out ideas don't change. * > Ideas don't get much further out than Christianity, an omnipotent being is unable to do something, unable to forgive the human race because one of them ate a apple unless? they torture His son to death. So answer me this, do you think this comically stupid idea could have survived for generation after generation for 2000 years if it was customary for people to receive no religious instruction before the age of 17? I mean, its already customary for people to receive no calculus instruction before the age of 17, so why not religion too? > ?> ? > *To John - all I meant by free will was that a person could examine his > beliefs in light of the evidence of his experiences and his reading and > other sources of information, and change them. * > ? That's the scientific method but it doesn't come naturally to us, even scientists have to struggle to make sure they adhere to it because, unlike a gene to believe that what adults say is true, Evolution did not provide us with a scientific method gene and its easy to see why. If I refused to believe what adults said about which fruits were good to eat and which ones were poisons and insisted on seeing for myself by eating one strange fruit after another one by one and noting the physiological effects it had on me I'd soon end up dead. John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 21:49:53 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 15:49:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] free will (sorry) Message-ID: What I said was that I could take a belief/memory out and play with it: introduce new data, new ways of thinking about it, and so on. The belief is now different. It is, sometimes, opposite to my prior belief, like last week when I changed my mind and converted to someone else's opinion (was it Dave?), What do you call this? I called it free will. I am not stuck with a previous idea. I should have recalled that it was taboo in this group. Sorry for rattling your brains. But - what would you call it? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Mar 3 23:17:24 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 17:17:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 3:48 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 12:49 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >> * ?> ?Let me see some data on how far-out ideas don't change. * >> > > Ideas don't get much further out than Christianity, an omnipotent being is > unable to do something, unable to forgive the human race because one of > them ate a apple unless? they torture His son to death. So answer me this, > do you think this comically stupid idea could have survived for generation > after generation for 2000 years if it was customary for people to receive > no religious instruction before the age of 17? I mean, its already > customary for people to receive no calculus instruction before the age of > 17, so why not religion too? > ?--------- > I have no idea what would happen if religious instruction came late. I suspect that would never happen - people want people indoctrinated. I do know that the ideas of virgin birth, walking on water, bringing people back from the dead, going instantly to heaven, changing water to win, and all the rest and more, were ideas that were around before, sometimes long before Jesus was born - if he was. Check out what was said about Hercules. Wacko ideas are very common, as you know, and not only among the illiterate and ? ?unintelligent. Case in point: Isaac Newton.? bill w > ? > > > >> ?> ? >> *To John - all I meant by free will was that a person could examine his >> beliefs in light of the evidence of his experiences and his reading and >> other sources of information, and change them. * >> > > ? > That's the scientific method but it doesn't come naturally to us, even > scientists have to struggle to make sure they adhere to it because, unlike > ?? > a gene to believe that what adults say is true, Evolution did not provide > us with a scientific method gene and its easy to see why. If I refused to > believe what adults said about which fruits were good to eat and which ones > were poisons and insisted on seeing for myself by eating one strange fruit > after another one by one and noting the physiological effects it had on me > I'd soon end up dead. > > John K Clark ? > > ? ? a gene to believe that what adults say is true, john If you want to believe that I'll not criticize you at all, but I think that kids are more tentative about what they believe. Told something is poisonous has not stopped a few children from doing what they were told not to do. What parents say just gets tossed in with all the rest: teachers, preachers, neighbors, other kids. A child may wind up not believing in their parents at all. Kids have actually legally divorced parents. "This hurts me more than it hurts you" What child has ever believed that? My parents were Christians. I am a naturalist. They were conservatives. I am a liberal. I believe some of what they believed and told me, and some of it was just wrong, as I discovered later. I do not believe that I am an outlier here. bill w? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 16:06:44 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:06:44 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Genetics Only a Small Part of How Long You Live Message-ID: Colossal family tree reveals environment?s influence on lifespan Genetics explains only a small part of differences in how long a person lives, finds analysis that links 13 million people. Erika Check Hayden 01 March 2018 Quotes: Computational biologist Yaniv Erlich of Columbia University in New York City and his colleagues have used crowdsourced data to make a family tree that links 13 million people. The ancestry chart, described today in Science1, is believed to be the largest verified resource of its kind ? spanning an average of 11 generations. Erlich?s team analysed the birth and death dates of the people in this tree, and calculated whether individuals were more likely to have died at similar ages if they were closely related. The group concludes that heredity explains only about 16% of the difference in lifespans for these individuals. Most of the differences were down to other factors, such as where and how people lived. Scientists already suspected that environment has more influence than genes on how long people live. But Erlich estimates that genes have even less of a role than researchers had thought. Erlich says that ?good? genes might extend a person?s life by an average of five years. Some environmental factors make a much bigger impact on longevity; smoking, for instance, can subtract ten years. ------------- This research indicates that 'memes' like avoiding starvation and disease are much more important than genetics. BillK From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 5 17:37:32 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 12:37:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cracking the Aging Code: The New Science of Growing Old - And What It Means for Staying Young Message-ID: By Josh Mitteldorf and Dorion Sagan I've started reading this, but not too far into it. Has anyone here read it? It makes a pretty strong case that multiple genetic mechanisms cause aging in humans. Kinda puts a damper on any simple/easy approaches to longevity. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 20:26:31 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:26:31 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The science of fake news Message-ID: There is a really good article on fake news in the current issue of Science. It was widely reported in the popular press. If someone on the list wants it and does not have access, I might be able to help. I responded to the author and will post that next. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 10 20:46:33 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 12:46:33 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The science of fake news Message-ID: Dear Dr. Lazer For me the critical passage in your excellent article starts with: "The United States has undergone a parallel geo- and sociopolitical evolution. Geographic polarization of partisan preferences has dramatically increased over the past 40 years," On evolutionary psychology grounds, I suspect that population growth and widespread recognition of limits has tripped human psychological mechanisms that evolved far back in pre-history. If all other causes (such as disease) fails to knock overpopulation back, then war does. The proposal is that a resource crisis trips on evolved psychologic mechanisms that cause the affected population to amplify xenophobic memes. Eventually, this psychs up the warriors for a do or die attack on the neighboring tribe. Win or lose, the local area overpopulation problem was solved. Our ancestors ran into this problem every generation or two for the last few million years--ever since we became the top predator. It is no wonder that a response evolved. I also suspect that the modern day trip mechanism is a bleak economic outlook. To keep this psychological mechanism turned off, rising or at least steady, income per capita is required. I have an unpublished paper on a math model examining the genetic outcomes of starving in place vs going to war. If you want to see it, ask. Best wishes, Keith Henson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 01:53:50 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:53:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news Message-ID: Trump recently said it might be a good idea if the USA had a president for life just as China does now. Perhaps he was just making a bad joke but I?m not sure, perhaps it was a trial balloon. I have always thought the very first question reporters should have asked President-elect Trump is if he lost in 2020 would he respect the outcome of the election, because he famously refused to say he?d do so before the 2016 election. He didn?t lose of course so the matter never came up but instead he showed himself to be something very rare, a sore winner. He bizarrely said the 2016 election was invalid and unfair even though he won. If Trump looses in 2020 can anybody really doubt he will call that election unfair and invalid too? And unlike the case in 2016 he would now be in a position to do more than just verbally complain about the outcome because he is now Commander In Chief and has the power to take action. Just two or three years ago I would have said such a suggestion was ridiculous paranoia but Mr.rump has already shown he is perfectly willing to engage in activities far outside normal presidential behavior, so I think we should take this danger seriously. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 02:15:38 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 20:15:38 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just two or three years ago I would have said such a suggestion was ridiculous paranoia but Mr.rump has already shown he is perfectly willing to engage in activities far outside normal presidential behavior, so I think we should take this danger seriously. John K Clark I find it very difficult to be against him more than I am now. So what can we do? bill w On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 7:53 PM, John Clark wrote: > Trump recently said it might be a good idea if the USA had a president for > life just as China does now. Perhaps he was just making a bad joke but I?m > not sure, perhaps it was a trial balloon. I have always thought the very > first question reporters should have asked President-elect Trump is if he > lost in 2020 would he respect the outcome of the election, because he > famously refused to say he?d do so before the 2016 election. He didn?t lose > of course so the matter never came up but instead he showed himself to be > something very rare, a sore winner. He bizarrely said the 2016 election was > invalid and unfair even though he won. If Trump looses in 2020 can anybody > really doubt he will call that election unfair and invalid too? And unlike > the case in 2016 he would now be in a position to do more than just > verbally complain about the outcome because he is now Commander In Chief > and has the power to take action. Just two or three years ago I would have > said such a suggestion was ridiculous paranoia but Mr.rump has already > shown he is perfectly willing to engage in activities far outside normal > presidential behavior, so I think we should take this danger seriously. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 02:34:03 2018 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:34:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm willing to take the other side of whatever you would like to bet that either way Trump is not more than a two term POTUS, and that if he loses in 2020, the results will ultimately be honored. You should have stuck with your "ridiculous paranoia" instinct; it sounds like you've been watching too much of the fake news network. I figured you'd be happy to see it doesn't look like the Norks aren't planning on nuking us currently. If the US can't survive one to two terms of Trump, we have much bigger problems with the structure of our Republic. Anyways, I'm serious about the bet; we can check back in 2020. On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 8:53 PM, John Clark wrote: > Trump recently said it might be a good idea if the USA had a president for > life just as China does now. Perhaps he was just making a bad joke but I?m > not sure, perhaps it was a trial balloon. I have always thought the very > first question reporters should have asked President-elect Trump is if he > lost in 2020 would he respect the outcome of the election, because he > famously refused to say he?d do so before the 2016 election. He didn?t lose > of course so the matter never came up but instead he showed himself to be > something very rare, a sore winner. He bizarrely said the 2016 election was > invalid and unfair even though he won. If Trump looses in 2020 can anybody > really doubt he will call that election unfair and invalid too? And unlike > the case in 2016 he would now be in a position to do more than just > verbally complain about the outcome because he is now Commander In Chief > and has the power to take action. Just two or three years ago I would have > said such a suggestion was ridiculous paranoia but Mr.rump has already > shown he is perfectly willing to engage in activities far outside normal > presidential behavior, so I think we should take this danger seriously. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 02:35:06 2018 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:35:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apologies around the terrible grammar regarding the Norks, I should have read that back one more time before posting... On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:34 PM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > I'm willing to take the other side of whatever you would like to bet that > either way Trump is not more than a two term POTUS, and that if he loses in > 2020, the results will ultimately be honored. You should have stuck with > your "ridiculous paranoia" instinct; it sounds like you've been watching > too much of the fake news network. I figured you'd be happy to see it > doesn't look like the Norks aren't planning on nuking us currently. > > If the US can't survive one to two terms of Trump, we have much bigger > problems with the structure of our Republic. Anyways, I'm serious about > the bet; we can check back in 2020. > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 8:53 PM, John Clark wrote: > >> Trump recently said it might be a good idea if the USA had a president >> for life just as China does now. Perhaps he was just making a bad joke but >> I?m not sure, perhaps it was a trial balloon. I have always thought the >> very first question reporters should have asked President-elect Trump is if >> he lost in 2020 would he respect the outcome of the election, because he >> famously refused to say he?d do so before the 2016 election. He didn?t lose >> of course so the matter never came up but instead he showed himself to be >> something very rare, a sore winner. He bizarrely said the 2016 election was >> invalid and unfair even though he won. If Trump looses in 2020 can anybody >> really doubt he will call that election unfair and invalid too? And unlike >> the case in 2016 he would now be in a position to do more than just >> verbally complain about the outcome because he is now Commander In Chief >> and has the power to take action. Just two or three years ago I would have >> said such a suggestion was ridiculous paranoia but Mr.rump has already >> shown he is perfectly willing to engage in activities far outside normal >> presidential behavior, so I think we should take this danger seriously. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 02:44:54 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 18:44:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I hope this is not fake news.... Message-ID: <2A2EA9F9-402F-41B2-B11C-55C877FE796D@gmail.com> http://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-newly-formed-company-launch-novel-approach-fusion-power-0309 Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 11 05:39:36 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 21:39:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bd01d3b8fb$582fb520$088f1f60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news >?Trump recently said it might be a good idea if the USA had a president for life ? so I think we should take this danger seriously. >? John K Clark I propose we start by junking every electronic voting machine. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 16:56:52 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 12:56:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I find it very difficult to be against him more than I am now. So what > can we do? > I think we have to get away from the current left/right, liberal/conservative mentality. We have to stop choosing sides, but, more importantly, we have to stop fighting those we disagree with and learn to actually discuss our views with each other. Right now both sides are doing battle, fighting and demonizing the enemy. The reality is the neither side is right or wrong or good or evil. As long as we live in our echo chambers and allow the media to manipulate us, we'll never get past this. Author John Twelve Hawks has a good essay on this topic at https://www.johntwelvehawks.com/trump -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 19:32:03 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 14:32:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The reality is the neither side is right or wrong or good or evil. dave If you are not right or wrong, what are you? Ditto good or evil. We have to elect people who will talk with each other. We don't have them now. >From my perspective, the Repubs are evil and wrong. Say one thing, do another - bought and paid for by Wall Street. bill w On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> I find it very difficult to be against him more than I am now. So what >> can we do? >> > > I think we have to get away from the current left/right, > liberal/conservative mentality. We have to stop choosing sides, but, more > importantly, we have to stop fighting those we disagree with and learn to > actually discuss our views with each other. Right now both sides are doing > battle, fighting and demonizing the enemy. The reality is the neither side > is right or wrong or good or evil. As long as we live in our echo chambers > and allow the media to manipulate us, we'll never get past this. > > Author John Twelve Hawks has a good essay on this topic at https://www. > johntwelvehawks.com/trump > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 21:24:19 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 17:24:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <00bd01d3b8fb$582fb520$088f1f60$@rainier66.com> References: <00bd01d3b8fb$582fb520$088f1f60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 12:39 AM, wrote: > I propose we start by junking every electronic voting machine. That might be a good idea for other reasons but it wouldn't help with what I'm most worried about. Regardless of how honest you or I or anybody else concludes the 2020 election turned out to be if Trump looses it takes very little imagination to envision him saying it was dishonest and phony, after all he's done it before. Several months before the last election Trump started saying the Election was going to be dishonest, no doubt because he thought he was going to loose and wanted an excuse, but even after he won he continued to say the election was dishonest because his margin of victory was't as large as he wanted. Is there any reason to think if he looses in 2020 this time he will change his tune and be a good sport about it? What I worry about is the day after the election the Commander In Chief of the armed forced of the USA will declare, whiteout evidence of course, that there had been massive fraud and therefore the election is null and void. He will decree that a new election will be held in 6 months, in the meantime a new Democracy Preservation Squad will be organized that supervise every precinct in the country to make sure only properly authorized people are allowed to vote, and instead of local officials counting the votes only one organazation will do so, the Democracy Preservation Squad. Oh by the way, not that its important or anything but Donald J Trump will hand pick each and every member of the Democracy Preservation Squad. In the new election, surprise surprise, Trump gets over 90% of the popular vote and every single electoral vote. After that he starts lobbing to amend the constitution to eliminate presidential term limits as China officially did just today at 8:30am EST. The Democracy Preservation Squad will visit legislators in their homes to educate them on the virtures of this proposel and how it would be in their best interests to go along with this. If Trump does this nobody can say he didn't give us a warning, just remember how he acted in 2016. And who is going to stop him? The Republican Congress has turned into a shapeless mass of invertebrates without even the hint of a backbone, he's been packing the courts with his toadies, his cabinet is full of generals, and a NRA member armed with one of their beloved assault rifles is no match for a 72 ton M1A2 Abrams tank, not even if its been modified with a bump stock. ? ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 21:51:02 2018 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 21:51:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Beyond politics, there is a common ruler and it?s not money. What we don?t understand fully yet is the fact that everything runs on a frequency. according to our astronomical location the frequency that we are living in now encourages us to behave in the manner that we are observing now. Aside from everything running on a frequency there is also the speed at which the earth is rotating towards our second sun. The invisible force known as Black matter is actually pulling us towards the second sun. Bottom line is that everything is sensitive to frequencies and it utterly effects our behavior. On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 12:59 PM Dave Sill wrote: > On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> I find it very difficult to be against him more than I am now. So what >> can we do? >> > > I think we have to get away from the current left/right, > liberal/conservative mentality. We have to stop choosing sides, but, more > importantly, we have to stop fighting those we disagree with and learn to > actually discuss our views with each other. Right now both sides are doing > battle, fighting and demonizing the enemy. The reality is the neither side > is right or wrong or good or evil. As long as we live in our echo chambers > and allow the media to manipulate us, we'll never get past this. > > Author John Twelve Hawks has a good essay on this topic at > https://www.johntwelvehawks.com/trump > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Mar 11 22:22:16 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 18:22:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 12:56 PM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > I think we have to get away from the current left/right, > liberal/conservative mentality. > I agree. > > ?>? > We have to stop choosing sides > I disagree. Like it or not we have to a choice to make, the educated/intelligent side or the ignorant/stupid side. I know what my pick is. > ?> ? > The reality is the neither side is right or wrong or good or evil. > ?I disagree with out current president too. ?When it comes to ? ?Nazis ?I don't believe " *You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine * *?people*"? ?. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 12 02:14:27 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2018 19:14:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 9:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: I find it very difficult to be against him more than I am now. So what can we do? >?I think we have to get away from the current left/right, liberal/conservative mentality. We have to stop choosing sides? -Dave There is one thing I have persistently suggested, elimination of all electronic voting machines. Now we have a case where both sides in American politics agree they were hacked. So both sides should agree we need to get rid of every last one of them, ja? It?s a bipartisan issue. I have long considered them dangerous: first time an election comes out looking really suspicious and the machine vote disagrees with the paper ballot, we have a very well-armed nation at odds with itself. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 11:53:47 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 07:53:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 10:14 PM, wrote: > > > There is one thing I have persistently suggested, elimination of all > electronic voting machines. Now we have a case where both sides in > American politics agree they were hacked. > There's plenty of evidence that Russia tried to influence the election, but I haven't seen much in the way of actual voting machine hacking. Not saying it didn't or couldn't happen... > So both sides should agree we need to get rid of every last one of them, > ja? It?s a bipartisan issue. > If the Russians helped Trump, how likely is he to try to prevent that in the future? > I have long considered them dangerous: first time an election comes out > looking really suspicious and the machine vote disagrees with the paper > ballot, we have a very well-armed nation at odds with itself. > I don't think we need to get rid of electronic voting machines but we do need a paper trail and substantially improved security measures and auditing. Honestly, I don't know why we don't have an open source project handling this. With a block chain we should be able to do online voting securely. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 12 14:37:54 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 07:37:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] guy finds bitcoins Message-ID: <003301d3ba0f$b5586020$20092060$@rainier66.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 14:44:39 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 10:44:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm finding it harder and harder to care one way or another, but I think there is a significantly nonzero chance that Trump at least tries to do something like this. I do believe if the people don't want it, it won't happen. Even if the military was on his side, I don't think they would coup against the nominal wishes of the majority of Americans. What worries me more is that the people will want it in 2020. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 16:00:52 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:00:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer Message-ID: In the NYT The journalist created two accounts: one in which she viewed liberal videos, the other, conservative. The Youtube algorithm recommended videos that were more radical than the ones she viewed: After viewing Trump rallies, she was recommended white supremacy ones. After viewing Clinton and Sanders, she got recommendations alluding to a conspiracy in gov. that was behind the towers attack. (this is liberal?) After viewing videos about vegetarianism, she got ones about vegans. After viewing jogging, she got marathons. Quite a consistent pattern. The idea behind the algorithm must be that keeping on viewing Youtube must depend on interest level, and people are more interested in the radical ideas than more moderate ones. The media itself is radicalizing. I don't have to tell you that someone at Google knows something about psychology. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 16:02:05 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:02:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] guy finds bitcoins In-Reply-To: <003301d3ba0f$b5586020$20092060$@rainier66.com> References: <003301d3ba0f$b5586020$20092060$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ah, a new term enters the language: bitcoin digger! bill w On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 9:37 AM, wrote: > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 30107 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 16:32:39 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:32:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: *> I'm finding it harder and harder to care one way or another,* You don't care if a dictatorship is established?! Yes yes I know, it?s very trendy in certain circles to make provocative statements like "we already have a dictatorship", but the very fact that someone can make such statements and is not in jail is proof that the utterance is untrue. If you think this is as bad as things can get you suffer from a lack of imagination. > *> but I think there is a significantly nonzero chance that Trump at least > tries to do something like this.* I?m not certain Trump is smart enough to fulfill his dream of becoming dictator, he is after all not noted for his intellectual prowess, but I am certain if he looses in 2020 he will not be a good sport about it, and even a unsuccessful attempt to grab power will be pretty horrible. There will literally be blood in the streets. And when it comes to gaining power being colorful and knowing the buzz words needed to whip a brainless mob into a frenzy might compensate for having a room temperature IQ. > *> I do believe if the people don't want it, it won't happen. Even if the > military was on his side, I don't think they would coup against the nominal > wishes of the majority of Americans.* In 2016 a majority of the American people didn?t want Trump to be Commander in Chief, even a plurality didn?t want him to have such awesome power, and yet here we are. The Republican congress will go along with anything Trump does and if he has the military on his side too its all over. How do you expect civilians to stand up against main battle tanks? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 16:40:02 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:40:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > *> I do believe if the people don't want it, it won't happen. Even if the > military was on his side, I don't think they would coup against the nominal > wishes of the majority of Americans.* ----------- I agree. This is why the NRA's instilling fears of confiscation is just loony. Troops would revolt. In 2016 a majority of the American people didn?t want Trump to be Commander in Chief, even a plurality didn?t want him to have such awesome power, and yet here we are. The Republican congress will go along with anything Trump does and if he has the military on his side too its all over. How do you expect civilians to stand up against main battle tanks? John K Clark Troops would revolt. Then civil war? bill w On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 11:32 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > > *> I'm finding it harder and harder to care one way or another,* > > You don't care if a dictatorship is established?! Yes yes I know, it?s > very trendy in certain circles to make provocative statements like "we > already have a dictatorship", but the very fact that someone can make such > statements and is not in jail is proof that the utterance is untrue. If you > think this is as bad as things can get you suffer from a lack of > imagination. > >> *> but I think there is a significantly nonzero chance that Trump at >> least tries to do something like this.* > > I?m not certain Trump is smart enough to fulfill his dream of becoming > dictator, he is after all not noted for his intellectual prowess, but I am > certain if he looses in 2020 he will not be a good sport about it, and even > a unsuccessful attempt to grab power will be pretty horrible. There will > literally be blood in the streets. And when it comes to gaining power > being colorful and knowing the buzz words needed to whip a brainless mob > into a frenzy might compensate for having a room temperature IQ. > >> *> I do believe if the people don't want it, it won't happen. Even if >> the military was on his side, I don't think they would coup against the >> nominal wishes of the majority of Americans.* > > In 2016 a majority of the American people didn?t want Trump to be > Commander in Chief, even a plurality didn?t want him to have such awesome > power, and yet here we are. The Republican congress will go along with > anything Trump does and if he has the military on his side too its all > over. How do you expect civilians to stand up against main battle tanks? > > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 17:48:12 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 13:48:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 12:32 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:44 AM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > > *> I'm finding it harder and harder to care one way or another,* > > You don't care if a dictatorship is established?! > Even if you care what can you do to prevent it? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 18:42:12 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:42:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I hope this is not fake news.... In-Reply-To: <2A2EA9F9-402F-41B2-B11C-55C877FE796D@gmail.com> References: <2A2EA9F9-402F-41B2-B11C-55C877FE796D@gmail.com> Message-ID: We'll see if and when they announce a plan for a pilot commercial plant. On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > http://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-newly-formed-company-launch-novel-approach-fusion-power-0309 > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": > http://mybook.to/SandTrap > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 20:15:25 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:15:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > Even if you care what can you do to prevent it? > I have no magic solution, if I had the power to prevent bad things that I can see are about to happen Trump wouldn't have his finger on the nuclear trigger today. But the first step is recognizing there is a problem that needs solving and maybe somebody has a idea I haven't thought of. Any suggestions? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 20:15:17 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 15:15:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > *> I'm finding it harder and harder to care one way or another,* >> >> You don't care if a dictatorship is established?! >> > Even if you care what can you do to prevent it? > > -Dave > ?Join the Democratic Party (OK, so you'll have to hold your nose a bit, but not as much as the Repubs) and put your money where your mouth is. billw? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 21:18:57 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 17:18:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: JKC, Fearmongering as you do, be it well-intentioned, is as destructive as the source of the fear. It is two sides of the same coin. A self fulfilling prophecy. Impossible not to play the roles fate has assigned us. It will go as it goes. Life is a bright wonderful terrifying spark in the yawning chasm of death. They provide a basis each other. The wheel of fortune will always spin to and spin fro in response--unless you believe in perpetual motion. A psychic trauma unfaced will fester and wreak tenfold havoc. Trump is the facing of all these problems of America. We must step towards our fear and not away. As we are here but for there. The lots have been cast since the realm sucked its first gulp from the tit of chaos. I of course would like to do all I can to prevent Earth from being sizzled. Of course the solution is neither Trump nor not-Trump. It is far more complicated and furthermore *we are going to have to deal with these problems at some point.* Zugzwang doesn't mean you've lost the game. It just means you have to stop fucking around. W -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 22:42:44 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:42:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: *?> ?Fearmongering as you do, be it well-intentioned, is as destructive as > the source of the fear.* Fearmongering? Well then you tell me, if Trump loses in 2020 do you really think he will behave more responsibly than he did in 2016 when he won? *> Of course the solution is neither Trump nor not-Trump.* ?That is very unfortunate. If the solution is neither X nor not X then according to logic the solution does not exist.? > *> It is far more complicated* Sometimes subtleties are not required. When you have an administration full of C students and ? ? rodeo clowns and a president who hasn't read a book in half a century, not even the book that claims on its dust jacket that he is the author, its not complicated to deduce that we're headed for trouble. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 12 22:53:39 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 18:53:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: ? > ?> ? > Join the Democratic Party (OK, so you'll have to hold your nose a bit, but > not as much as the Repubs) and put your money where your mouth is. > I've already done that. For most of my life I was a Republican but I changed to Democratic about 5 yeas ago because I thought the Republicans we're going nuts, although looking back on it now they were a model of rational thought compared to where they are now. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 12 23:21:36 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:21:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 1:15 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 1:48 PM, Dave Sill > wrote: ?> ?>?Even if you care what can you do to prevent it? >?I have no magic solution, if I had the power to prevent bad things that I can see are about to happen Trump wouldn't have his finger on the nuclear trigger today. But the first step is recognizing there is a problem that needs solving and maybe somebody has a idea I haven't thought of. Any suggestions? John K Clark Start by pressuring state governments to get their election mechanisms in order. That includes verification of eligibility to vote, ID verification at the polls and you already know the other critical piece, the one I post about a lot. It matters now. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Mon Mar 12 23:16:52 2018 From: robot at ultimax.com (Robert G Kennedy III, PE) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:16:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Concur w/Bill W's experience. Recently, I searched for the "Radetzsky March" on YouTube. (The one that they always play on New Year's Day at the Vienna Staatsoper, wherein the audience clapping was explicitly scored in by the composer Strauss Jr.) After I watched it, the Recommended screen refreshed itself. Among other highly-ranked suggestions appeared the "Horst Wessel Song", with swastika and all. WTF? I was pretty stunned. RGK3 On 2018-03-12 16:15, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:00:52 -0500 > From: William Flynn Wallace > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > In the NYT > > The journalist created two accounts: one in which she viewed liberal > videos, the other, conservative. > > The Youtube algorithm recommended videos that were more radical than > the > ones she viewed: > > After viewing Trump rallies, she was recommended white supremacy ones. > > After viewing Clinton and Sanders, she got recommendations alluding to > a > conspiracy in gov. that was behind the towers attack. (this is > liberal?) > > After viewing videos about vegetarianism, she got ones about vegans. > > After viewing jogging, she got marathons. > > Quite a consistent pattern. > > The idea behind the algorithm must be that keeping on viewing Youtube > must > depend on interest level, and people are more interested in the radical > ideas than more moderate ones. > > The media itself is radicalizing. I don't have to tell you that > someone at > Google knows something about psychology. > > bill w -- Robert G Kennedy III, PE www.ultimax.com From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 00:02:32 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:02:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?I totally forgot to mention that I got these ideas from an article that appeared in the New York Times yesterday. They did not come from me. Sorry if I misled you. bill w? On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 6:16 PM, Robert G Kennedy III, PE wrote: > Concur w/Bill W's experience. > > Recently, I searched for the "Radetzsky March" on YouTube. (The one that > they always play on New Year's Day at the Vienna Staatsoper, wherein the > audience clapping was explicitly scored in by the composer Strauss Jr.) > > After I watched it, the Recommended screen refreshed itself. Among other > highly-ranked suggestions appeared the "Horst Wessel Song", with swastika > and all. WTF? I was pretty stunned. > > RGK3 > > > On 2018-03-12 16:15, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:00:52 -0500 >> From: William Flynn Wallace >> To: ExI chat list >> Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer >> Message-ID: >> > gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> In the NYT >> >> The journalist created two accounts: one in which she viewed liberal >> videos, the other, conservative. >> >> The Youtube algorithm recommended videos that were more radical than the >> ones she viewed: >> >> After viewing Trump rallies, she was recommended white supremacy ones. >> >> After viewing Clinton and Sanders, she got recommendations alluding to a >> conspiracy in gov. that was behind the towers attack. (this is liberal?) >> >> After viewing videos about vegetarianism, she got ones about vegans. >> >> After viewing jogging, she got marathons. >> >> Quite a consistent pattern. >> >> The idea behind the algorithm must be that keeping on viewing Youtube must >> depend on interest level, and people are more interested in the radical >> ideas than more moderate ones. >> >> The media itself is radicalizing. I don't have to tell you that someone >> at >> Google knows something about psychology. >> >> bill w >> > > -- > Robert G Kennedy III, PE > www.ultimax.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 01:05:14 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:05:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 7:21 PM, wrote: > ?> ? > Start by pressuring state governments to get their election mechanisms in > order. That includes verification of eligibility to vote, ID verification > at the polls > > That wouldn't be at the top of my list of things to worry about. Trump claims there were over 3 million fraudulent voters in the 2016 election and they all voted for Clinton, but where did Trump get that number? Not from one of the nations multi billion dollar intelligence agencies that Trump is the boss of but the same place he gets much of his knowledge, InfoWars.com, the very same place that said the traumatized children who survived the Sandy Hook school shooting were just child actors payed to look sad by anti gun lobbyists and nobody really died in that kindergarten on that horrible day. Where did InfoWars get that number? From tweets made by some bozo named Gregg Phillips, a former director of both the Alabama and Mississippi Republican party. Where did Phillips get that number? Nobody knows because to this day Phillips refuses to say. So what do we for know for sure? We know for sure there were precisely 4 well documented cases of voter fraud out of 135 million votes cast in the 2016 election. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 01:53:27 2018 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:53:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Regardless of what we know for sure (although we know more than 4 cases of voter fraud if one cares to look), do you think allowing people to vote on the honor system is an advisable way to run the republic? Wouldn't it be better to implement an ID based voter system considering you need either a driver's license or a state issued ID to get nearly anything done as a US citizen? Of course, we have some states issuing driver's licenses to illegals, but that's a topic for another day. On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 9:05 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 7:21 PM, wrote: > > > >> ?> ? >> Start by pressuring state governments to get their election mechanisms in >> order. That includes verification of eligibility to vote, ID verification >> at the polls >> >> > That wouldn't be at the top of my list of things to worry about. Trump > claims there were over 3 million fraudulent voters in the 2016 election and > they all voted for Clinton, but where did Trump get that number? Not from > one of the nations multi billion dollar intelligence agencies that Trump is > the boss of but the same place he gets much of his knowledge, > InfoWars.com, the very same place that said the traumatized children who > survived the Sandy Hook school shooting were just child actors payed > to look sad by anti gun lobbyists and nobody really died in that > kindergarten on that horrible day. Where did InfoWars get that number? From > tweets made by some bozo named Gregg Phillips, a former director of both > the Alabama and Mississippi Republican party. Where did Phillips get that > number? Nobody knows because to this day Phillips refuses to say. > > So what do we for know for sure? We know for sure there were precisely 4 > well documented cases of voter fraud out of 135 million votes cast in the > 2016 election. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 13 02:00:32 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:00:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012101d3ba6f$12924b70$37b6e250$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 7:21 PM, > wrote: ?>>?Start by pressuring state governments to get their election mechanisms in order. That includes verification of eligibility to vote, ID verification at the polls >?So what do we for know for sure? We know for sure there were precisely 4 well documented cases of voter fraud out of 135 million votes cast in the 2016 election?.John K Clark California does not check voter ID at the polls. We have no way of knowing how many illegal votes were cast. I heard an interview with Israeli leader Netanyahu. Apparently he likes the current US leadership and has a vested interest in seeing it continue. The Israelis are skillful at software. Voting machines work on software. See any potential problem here? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 02:34:03 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:34:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I hope this is not fake news.... In-Reply-To: References: <2A2EA9F9-402F-41B2-B11C-55C877FE796D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > We'll see if and when they announce a plan for a pilot commercial plant. > >> On Sat, Mar 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> http://news.mit.edu/2018/mit-newly-formed-company-launch-novel-approach-fusion-power-0309 >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan Right. Not holding my breath. 15 years is three lifetimes away. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 13 02:43:20 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 19:43:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill >?There's plenty of evidence that Russia tried to influence the election, but I haven't seen much in the way of actual voting machine hacking. Not saying it didn't or couldn't happen... Barbra Streisand: ?I?ve talked to senators from Michigan and Wisconsin. I do believe, like I believed during Bush, they were playing with those voter machines?? >>?So both sides should agree we need to get rid of every last one of them, ja? It?s a bipartisan issue. >?If the Russians helped Trump, how likely is he to try to prevent that in the future? Elections are done on a state level. Trump can?t do anything either way. It isn?t his call. >>? I have long considered them dangerous: first time an election comes out looking really suspicious and the machine vote disagrees with the paper ballot, we have a very well-armed nation at odds with itself. >?I don't think we need to get rid of electronic voting machines but we do need a paper trail and substantially improved security measures and auditing. Honestly, I don't know why we don't have an open source project handling this. With a block chain we should be able to do online voting securely. -Dave More than twenty years ago in this forum we correctly foresaw future warfare which no longer had anything to do with hurling chunks of metal at one?s adversary but rather was memetic. We keep hearing of Russians doing this and that, but it isn?t at all clear if their actions were an act of war. That is the anticipated nature of memetic warfare: it isn?t clear who is doing it and what are their aims. >From what I understand, the Russians didn?t so much prefer one party over another, as they wanted to have both US parties choose their weakest candidates to win the primary. It worked. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 03:15:29 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 23:15:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Getting rid of Trump does not get rid of the problem. It will happen again and again until we address it. The Trump situation is similar to a manic episode. To fix America we must fix the people's problems. Starting perhaps by less hate-the-other, more reaching across the aisle (corpus callosum?) even if you think your enemy is despicable. We'll all assimilate each other whether you like it or not. You think a bunch of maniacs won't vote for a maniac again? Total denial. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 13 04:35:15 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2018 21:35:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <00d901d3ba58$dfe34be0$9fa9e3a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004f01d3ba84$afc46710$0f4d3530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Sent: Monday, March 12, 2018 8:15 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news >?Getting rid of Trump does not get rid of the problem. It will happen again and again until we address it. The Trump situation is similar to a manic episode. To fix America we must fix the people's problems. Starting perhaps by less hate-the-other, more reaching across the aisle (corpus callosum?) even if you think your enemy is despicable. We'll all assimilate each other whether you like it or not. >?You think a bunch of maniacs won't vote for a maniac again? Total denial? We always had a credible common enemy. Without a common enemy, every society will enter into warfare with itself. In early US, we had the British, then again in 1812. I was only recently aware that some portion of US society still considered the crown a viable enemy up until about the late 1840s and possibly into the 1850s but it became clear to everyone that the British were not coming. Then it was time for a Civil war. Had not the Great War come along when it did, the US would surely have gone at it again, but we were saved by Europe?s wars, then the rise of Communism. OK then. What did we have after 1989? For a while we could assume the breakup of the USSR was a trick. I believed it for a long time. But I have met enough Russians and Ukrainians who insist the commies really did fold their tents and go away. Our civil war would have started before now but for the attack on the twin towers. That bought us about a decade or so, but eventually we realized they will not suffice as a common enemy: they don?t have nukes. The North Koreans have a nuke, but they are starving. Even so, they can?t deliver it without some additional testing, and now they seem nearly ready to bargain that away for a few heavily laden freight ships full of rice. So now the US is back to its longstanding challenge of an inadequate common enemy, and Europe Inc seems to be suffering from the same problem. So? we have memetic warfare. I would suggest we all team up against the Russians like the good old days but? modern socialism and modern capitalism are similar to an extent that they have become difficult to distinguish from each other. So what do we do? Recognize that we are involved in memetic warfare and live with it? The Russians (or whoever did it) kicked our butts in the first round: they managed to get both major parties to nominate their worst candidate, the least likely to unify the country. They won that one. Now what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 07:15:58 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:15:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won Message-ID: Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won The Brain Preservation Foundation (BPF) is announcing that the final phase of the Brain Preservation Prize has been won. This could soon enable new ?cryonics for uploaders? options... https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the-brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:15:48 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:15:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, John Clark wrote: > > I have no magic solution, if I had the power to prevent bad things that I > can see are about to happen Trump wouldn't have his finger on the nuclear > trigger today. But the first step is recognizing there is a problem that > needs solving and maybe somebody has a idea I haven't thought of. Any > suggestions? > Just the one I already made: open dialogue with those you consider "the other side" so both "sides" can learn to see "them" as people with similar goals, not enemies to be scorned, ridiculed, and defeated. Sure, it's a long shot, but why not try? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:17:09 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:17:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > ?Join the Democratic Party (OK, so you'll have to hold your nose a bit, > but not as much as the Repubs) and put your money where your mouth is. > That's the partisan thinking that's gotten us into this mess. Doing it harder is exactly the wrong approach. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:32:45 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:32:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 3:32 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >The reality is the neither side is right or wrong or good or evil. dave > > If you are not right or wrong, what are you? Ditto good or evil. > Somewhere in between? A mixture of both? Not everything is cleanly and distinctly one or the other. There are far more than two schools of political thought. The Republican/Democrat system excludes more belief systems than it includes. Libertarianism, socialism, communism, Greenism, Piratism, etc, are all left out except for the pieces of them that are borrowed by one of our two parties. > We have to elect people who will talk with each other. We don't have them > now. From my perspective, the Repubs are evil and wrong. Say one thing, > do another - bought and paid for by Wall Street. > Both sides are doing bad things and both sides are corrupt. Picking the one you think is less bad not likely to improve things. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:41:59 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:41:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:43 PM, wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dave Sill > > >?There's plenty of evidence that Russia tried to influence the election, > but I haven't seen much in the way of actual voting machine hacking. Not > saying it didn't or couldn't happen... > > > > Barbra Streisand: ?I?ve talked to senators from Michigan and Wisconsin. I > do believe, like I believed during Bush, they were playing with those voter > machines?? > Seriously? Hearsay from a celebrity is the best you've got? >?If the Russians helped Trump, how likely is he to try to prevent that in > the future? > > > > Elections are done on a state level. Trump can?t do anything either way. > It isn?t his call. > Then you're not trying to solve one problem, you're trying to solve 50 problems. Good luck with that. Trump, congress, and the entire federal government are constantly doing things that aren't their call. Who would object to a national effort to replace old, vulnerable, proprietary voting machines with new, open source, more secure voting machines with a paper trail? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 11:44:36 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 07:44:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool! On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won > > The Brain Preservation Foundation (BPF) is announcing that the final > phase of the Brain Preservation Prize has been won. This could soon > enable new ?cryonics for uploaders? options... > > https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the- > brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:01:12 2018 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:01:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Those who benefit from the current system... On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 7:41 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > Who would object to a national effort to replace old, vulnerable, > proprietary voting machines with new, open source, more secure voting > machines with a paper trail? > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 12:07:25 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:07:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote: > Those who benefit from the current system... > I'm cool with that. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 13 13:18:53 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 06:18:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <015b01d3ba75$0d097560$271c6020$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d3bacd$d5ff59a0$81fe0ce0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 10:43 PM, > wrote: >>?Barbra Streisand: ?I?ve talked to senators from Michigan and Wisconsin. I do believe, like I believed during Bush, they were playing with those voter machines?? >?Seriously? Hearsay from a celebrity is the best you've got? Not seriously. I got a huge heehaw when I saw a Hollyweird star point fingers at the voting machines. I thought the day would never come. My comment from years ago is that if an election ever comes out differently than expected, it could result in a disputed election. One did. The next one could come out waaaay different than expected. A disputed election now would be really bad news. >>?Elections are done on a state level. Trump can?t do anything either way. It isn?t his call. >?Then you're not trying to solve one problem, you're trying to solve 50 problems. Good luck with that? True. The voting machine problem cannot be solved at the federal level. >?Trump, congress, and the entire federal government are constantly doing things that aren't their call? I agree that they do. But it is not legal. This problem has to be solved legally. >?Who would object to a national effort to replace old, vulnerable, proprietary voting machines with new, open source, more secure voting machines with a paper trail? -Dave The people who benefit from the arrangement would object. If done illegally, I would object. States must carry the ball on this. State governments must do something they have previously persistently refused to do: publish vote totals of paper ballots, mail-in ballots and machine ballots as separate numbers. That alone would give us a hint that something is amiss. But it could make a new problem as well, if we discover something is amiss. I want the new problem. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 15:53:28 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 11:53:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is indeed wonderful news! I just hope Alcor is paying attention to modern developments. John K Clark On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won > > The Brain Preservation Foundation (BPF) is announcing that the final > phase of the Brain Preservation Prize has been won. This could soon > enable new ?cryonics for uploaders? options... > > https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the- > brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 16:06:05 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 12:06:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a *really *good video about this, it's 24 minutes long but anyone why is serious about actually seeing some of the stuff we talk about on this list needs to watch it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejIKy5R4uGM ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 18:23:23 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 11:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 3:42 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 5:18 PM, Will Steinberg > wrote: >> > Of course the solution is neither Trump nor not-Trump. > > That is very unfortunate. If the solution is neither X nor not X then > according to logic the solution does not exist. That assumes X is a variable that can only be true or false, and that all cases of X being false are equivalent. In this case, though, it would have been better for Will to say "nor merely not-Trump". Will's point is that merely getting rid of Trump is not the totality of the solution; there are many other aspects. Your point is that getting rid of Trump is clearly part of any viable solution, and an urgent one, whether or not there are other components too. From atymes at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 18:26:27 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 11:26:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pun intended? On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 4:44 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > Cool! > > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 3:15 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >> Cryonics for uploaders: The Brain Preservation Prize has been won >> >> The Brain Preservation Foundation (BPF) is announcing that the final >> phase of the Brain Preservation Prize has been won. This could soon >> enable new ?cryonics for uploaders? options... >> >> >> https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-the-brain-preservation-prize-has-been-won-cebbe98c241a >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 20:16:21 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:16:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > ?>>? >> If the solution is neither X nor not X then >> ? >> according to logic the solution does not exist. > > > ?> ? > That assumes X is a variable that can only be true or false, and that > all cases of X being false are equivalent. > No, it assumes nothing of the sort.I accidentally dropper my pen. That is a problem. The solution to that problem is either a banana or the solution is not a banana. In this case the solution is not a banana, in this case the solution is to pick the pen up. If the solution is not a banana and also not not a banana then I will never see my pen again and must just learn to live without it. > ?> ? > merely getting rid of Trump > ? > is not the totality of the solution; In the real world big problems rarely have total solutions and stupidity is a big problem, but getting rid of a dishonest lying pinhead who has his grubby little finger on the nuclear trigger would be a big step in the right direction. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 13 20:07:20 2018 From: nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk (Tom Nowell) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 20:07:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] youtube a radicalizer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <543358327.1109615.1520971640102@mail.yahoo.com> I had a similar experience - I went to youtube to watch some songs from the musical "Cabaret", finishing with "Tomorrow belongs to me". The first ones suggested I might like other musical theatre songs. "Tomorrow belongs to me" suggested the Horst Wessel Lied and a little ditty called "Bring back the Black and Tans" which I decided to click on. Imagine my surprise to discover this was a partisan song supporting the Loyalist cause in Northern Ireland.??Clearly Ulster Protestant radicals enjoy a bit of Cabaret, and their taste is changing youtube algorithms. I have found one way of shifting the settings - I took part in a contest where participants each rated the other participants favourite music videos. As we all had different tastes, we all found youtube suggesting random things we'd never look at normally. Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 20:54:53 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:54:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > Both sides are doing bad things > Just today Trump made Gina Haspel the new CIA director. She operated a secret CIA torture chamber in Thailand. When the secret of its existence came out in 2005 she ordered video tapes of hundreds of hours of torture sessions be destroyed "in a industrial-strength shredder". She is replacing Mike Pompeo who was promoted to Secretary of State and is also a big torture fan. And of course Donald Trump is the biggest torture fanboy of all. Look me in the eye and telll me you see a moral equivalence between those who want to see people tortured and those that don't. Some on this list have said I should respect people who are not respectable, but I don't know how to do that and don't want to learn > ?> ? > Picking the one you think is less bad not likely to improve things. > What in the world are you talking about? Picking the less bad option is always better because it is.... well..., ? ? less bad! John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 21:14:32 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:14:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > ? > merely getting rid of Trump > ? > is not the totality of the solution; In the real world big problems rarely have total solutions and stupidity is a big problem, but getting rid of a dishonest lying pinhead who has his grubby little finger on the nuclear trigger would be a big step in the right direction. John K Clark I agree with John, He has to go as a first step. Fired someone else today - Secretary of State, I think. The Repubs are reportedly getting real sick of him. It's the narcissism - anyone who agrees with him is right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong. bill w On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 3:16 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> > ?>>? >>> If the solution is neither X nor not X then >>> ? >>> according to logic the solution does not exist. >> >> >> ?> ? >> That assumes X is a variable that can only be true or false, and that >> all cases of X being false are equivalent. >> > > No, it assumes nothing of the sort.I accidentally dropper my pen. That is > a problem. The solution to that problem is either a banana or the solution > is not a banana. In this case the solution is not a banana, in this case > the solution is to pick the pen up. If the solution is not a banana and > also not not a banana then I will never see my pen again and must just > learn to live without it. > > >> ?> ? >> merely getting rid of Trump >> ? >> is not the totality of the solution; > > > In the real world big problems rarely have total solutions and stupidity > is a big problem, but getting rid of a dishonest lying pinhead who has his > grubby little finger on the nuclear trigger would be a big step in the > right direction. > > John K Clark > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Mar 13 22:22:05 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:22:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: JKC, Why do you think Trump got elected? How do you propose preventing that from happening again? What do you want to happen with the people who voted for him and their children? If you're stepping in shit then you have to train the dog. Not the shit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From frankmac at ripco.com Tue Mar 13 22:37:00 2018 From: frankmac at ripco.com (frank mcelligott) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 15:37:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news. Message-ID: <008733A3776A4D45B428A65E282E1D3C@MININTPNDT1SD> As I have run for public office, Chicago and a suburb of same, and I have also a son who ran for office in South bend area of Indiana as well, I can explain why any effort to change the way it is done with not happen without Patriots. Served on polling places in both Chicago and Oak park and it was a very long day both places The system is old, it is exhausted and run by the parties (the majority). Poll workers are usually old retired persons or families connected to political parties. they are the only ones who can spend Tuesday's in a polling place, the rest of us have jobs. They receive 100 dollars for that service normally split 3 for the majority and two for the minority, , but that varies state by state, county by county within each state.. So what you are facing with any change is a total disruption on a system which favors the powers in place RIGHT NOW. Contracts for machines software which runs them printing of ballots and poll personal, all go though the parties in power. Why do you think 80% of congressman are reelected each and every year. To run you must have an organization. You must workers who get you petitions signed, you must have office, people to drive you around to rallies, large number of contacts for rallies, people to give you money, wives and husband who support you, and unless you have deep pockets to finance it all, you have to join the system?s in power. The tea party came close but it is waning with every pasting election. Solution is simple. Give everyone a passport who can vote. Include it a national id card which can be used at any Atm machine for a period of a week(seven days) use Blackchain Tech to ensure the validity and use of the id card only once. Total the results and congrats to the winners. Sorry to say, we have the tech in place but lack the political will. Will it ever happen sure, Just give the 1.8 million DACA?S guns and let them tell the 35k ice agents to come and get us. Meaning tongue in cheek you will need a revolution -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 01:01:54 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:01:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Alcor is getting new competition Message-ID: ? A new company called " ? Nectome" was started just today to use revolutionary new aldehyde-stabilized cryopreservation ? technique, it wants to preserve brains specifically for mind uploading ? ? https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitching-a-mind-uploading-service-that-is-100-percent-fatal/ John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 01:22:45 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:22:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 6:22 PM, Will Steinberg wrote: ?> ? > Why do you think Trump got elected? > He got elected because a lot of the American people are gullible and are very poor judges of character, not a majority of the people or even a plurality but a lot. ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 01:44:28 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:44:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 1:16 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> If the solution is neither X nor not X then >>> according to logic the solution does not exist. >> >> That assumes X is a variable that can only be true or false, and that >> all cases of X being false are equivalent. > > No, it assumes nothing of the sort. Yes it does. > I accidentally dropper my pen. That is a > problem. The solution to that problem is either a banana or the solution is > not a banana. In this case the solution is not a banana, in this case the > solution is to pick the pen up. If the solution is not a banana and also not > not a banana then I will never see my pen again and must just learn to live > without it. The solution is not "a banana", as in applying a banana (which can not pick stuff up) will not solve the problem. The solution is not "not a banana", as in ensuring the absence of a banana is irrelevant to the solution. >> merely getting rid of Trump >> is not the totality of the solution; > > In the real world big problems rarely have total solutions and stupidity is > a big problem, but getting rid of a dishonest lying pinhead who has his > grubby little finger on the nuclear trigger would be a big step in the right > direction. Agreed. But the original poster you were responding to was pointing out that there's more to the solution. From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 01:58:45 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:58:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] [Meta] It sucks that Anders left In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's all. Just was thinking about that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 02:07:36 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 22:07:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Trump is a pair of dice cast by the invisible hand. At some point it seems like there's no reason to keep talking about this. Clearly the conversation is not changing. It reveals an intra-list problem that cannot be solved within the confines of these threads. I don't think I will post in political conversations here anymore. It's far too tempting to be good for me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 02:30:14 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 19:30:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary psychology was Re: I wish this was fake news Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, John Clark wrote: >> I have no magic solution, if I had the power to prevent bad things that I >> can see are about to happen Trump wouldn't have his finger on the nuclear >> trigger today. But the first step is recognizing there is a problem that >> needs solving and maybe somebody has a idea I haven't thought of. Any >> suggestions? > Just the one I already made: open dialogue with those you consider "the > other side" so both "sides" can learn to see "them" as people with similar > goals, not enemies to be scorned, ridiculed, and defeated. Sure, it's a > long shot, but why not try? You miss the evolutionary psychology mechanisms behind "sides." Perception of a bleak future is observed to turn up the gain on xenophobic memes (often religious in nature). In the stone age, these memes eventually synched up the tribe's warriors for a do or die attack on the neighbors. Win or lose, war solved the resource crisis and the future looked bright again. (Until the population built up and there was another resource crisis. BTW, Pope Urban II was the first to articulate resource limits as a reason for war.) It is not sensible to go against millions of years of evolution to get "sides" to consider "them" as anything but "enemies to be scorned, ridiculed, and defeated." It's downstream of the cause for the "them" vs "us" and ineffective. Fixing the upstream cause takes improving the future outlook of the people who are splitting up in preparation for killing each other. That's what incidentally happened to the situation in Ireland with the IRA. The Irish women cut the number of children they had to the European replacement standard. That resulted in per capita income rising and the future looking brighter. This, in turn, led to the loss of population support for the IRA (warriors) and the situation cooled off. To apply this to the US, the economic outlook for the large segment of the population facing reduced future prospects would need to be improved. There are ways to improve the prospects of US population, but there is little to no interest. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 14 04:13:00 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:13:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news >?I don't think I will post in political conversations here anymore. It's far too tempting to be good for me? Back in the old days when they said ?Hear here? was it that, or did they say hear hear? Or Here here? I suppose it could even be here hear. Will, I join your pledge if that is what it was, or share your conviction if that is what it was. There are political forums available if one wants that. This isn?t one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 10:09:58 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:09:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Is Evolutionary Psychology a deeply flawed enterprise? Message-ID: Laurence A. Moran March 12, 2018 Quotes: The critique from biologists is summarized by Robert C. Richardson (a philosopher) in his book Evolutionary Psychology as Maladapted Psychology. The claims of evolutionary psychology may pass muster as psychology; but what are their evolutionary credentials? Richardson considers three ways adaptive hypotheses can be evaluated, using examples from the biological literature to illustrate what sorts of evidence and methodology would be necessary to establish specific evolutionary and adaptive explanations of human psychological traits. He shows that existing explanations within evolutionary psychology fall woefully short of accepted biological standards. The theories offered by evolutionary psychologists may identify traits that are, or were, beneficial to humans. But gauged by biological standards, there is inadequate evidence: evolutionary psychologists are largely silent on the evolutionary evidence relevant to assessing their claims, including such matters as variation in ancestral populations, heritability, and the advantage offered to our ancestors. As evolutionary claims they are unsubstantiated. Evolutionary psychology, Richardson concludes, may offer a program of research, but it lacks the kind of evidence that is generally expected within evolutionary biology. It is speculation rather than sound science?and we should treat its claims with skepticism. You may disagree with these criticisms of evolutionary psychology but there's no denying that the discipline is being attacked. In fact, it's hard to think of any other academic discipline whose fundamental validity is being questioned so openly. The field of evolutionary psychology is full of hyper-adaptationist thinking. It's primary task is explaining modern features of human behavior as adaptations that took place in primitive human populations. From an evolutionary perspective, this requires that the behavior has strong enough genetic components to be subject to evolution by natural selection. It requires that primitive populations contained alleles for the modern behavior as well as alleles for a different behavior that reduced fitness. Finally, it requires that selection for the modern behavior is strong enough to lead to fixation in just a few hundred thousand years. All of these assumptions require supporting evidence that is almost always missing in evolutionary psychology publications. In the absence of evidence, the default assumption should be that the behavior is cultural. If there's evidence of a genetic component then the default assumption should be fixation by drift unless there's evidence of selection. -------------- BillK From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:00:34 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:00:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary psychology was Re: I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:30 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > You miss the evolutionary psychology mechanisms behind "sides." > No, I just don't think we're incapable of overriding them. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:07:23 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:07:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 4:54 PM, John Clark wrote: > > What in the world are you talking about? Picking the less bad option is > always better because it is.... well..., > ? ? > less bad! > It's a false dichotomy. We're being fed two bad choices so we can feel like we have the power to change things. So we get hung up on choosing sides and doing battle when we should be looking at the big picture and asking "hey, why are we constantly choosing between two bad choices?" -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 12:09:14 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:09:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:13 AM, wrote: > > > There are political forums available if one wants that. This isn?t one. > I agree that this isn't place to discuss Trump and current political events, but I think discussion of improving politics in general is appropriate. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 13:14:29 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:14:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead Message-ID: https://www.nytimes.com/?campaignId=6WKH8 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:06:37 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:06:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A damn shame. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:14:36 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:14:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Is Evolutionary Psychology a deeply flawed enterprise? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evolutionary psychology, Richardson concludes, may offer a program of research, but it lacks the kind of evidence that is generally expected within evolutionary biology. It is speculation rather than sound science?and we should treat its claims with skepticism. bill k Agreed. But since it usually deals with the behaviors of ancient peoples, what else could it be but speculation? Bad theories are often very useful things: people want to go out and find evidence against them, and so a bad theory, and I am not saying evolutionary psych is a bad theory, stimulates research. Just look at Freud's followers (granted, they did not do a lot of experiments) and critics. A bad theory is a good theory if it is testable and falsifiable. bill w On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 5:09 AM, BillK wrote: > Laurence A. Moran > March 12, 2018 > > psychology-deeply.html> > > Quotes: > The critique from biologists is summarized by Robert C. Richardson (a > philosopher) in his book Evolutionary Psychology as Maladapted > Psychology. > > The claims of evolutionary psychology may pass muster as psychology; > but what are their evolutionary credentials? Richardson considers > three ways adaptive hypotheses can be evaluated, using examples from > the biological literature to illustrate what sorts of evidence and > methodology would be necessary to establish specific evolutionary and > adaptive explanations of human psychological traits. He shows that > existing explanations within evolutionary psychology fall woefully > short of accepted biological standards. The theories offered by > evolutionary psychologists may identify traits that are, or were, > beneficial to humans. But gauged by biological standards, there is > inadequate evidence: evolutionary psychologists are largely silent on > the evolutionary evidence relevant to assessing their claims, > including such matters as variation in ancestral populations, > heritability, and the advantage offered to our ancestors. As > evolutionary claims they are unsubstantiated. Evolutionary psychology, > Richardson concludes, may offer a program of research, but it lacks > the kind of evidence that is generally expected within evolutionary > biology. It is speculation rather than sound science?and we should > treat its claims with skepticism. > > You may disagree with these criticisms of evolutionary psychology but > there's no denying that the discipline is being attacked. In fact, > it's hard to think of any other academic discipline whose fundamental > validity is being questioned so openly. > > The field of evolutionary psychology is full of hyper-adaptationist > thinking. It's primary task is explaining modern features of human > behavior as adaptations that took place in primitive human > populations. From an evolutionary perspective, this requires that the > behavior has strong enough genetic components to be subject to > evolution by natural selection. It requires that primitive populations > contained alleles for the modern behavior as well as alleles for a > different behavior that reduced fitness. Finally, it requires that > selection for the modern behavior is strong enough to lead to fixation > in just a few hundred thousand years. > > All of these assumptions require supporting evidence that is almost > always missing in evolutionary psychology publications. > > In the absence of evidence, the default assumption should be that the > behavior is cultural. If there's evidence of a genetic component then > the default assumption should be fixation by drift unless there's > evidence of selection. > -------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:15:07 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:15:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > A damn shame. > ?It's shameful to die? bill w? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:42:14 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 07:42:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: >> A damn shame. > > ?It's shameful to die? bill w? https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 14:51:30 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:51:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] To Boldly Transcend All Limits: The Visionary Legacy of Stephen Hawking Message-ID: Here is my transhumanist homage to Stephen Hawking, just published in Motherboard. To Boldly Transcend All Limits: The Visionary Legacy of Stephen Hawking https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/j5by87/stephen-hawking-on-ai-space-and-the-future Stephen Hawking was one of the leading theoretical physicists and cosmologists of our time. He was never awarded a Nobel Prize because his research on the quantum physics and thermodynamics of black holes was too far ahead of the possibility of experimental verification. It?s worth noting, however, that ?Hawking radiation? from artificial black hole analogues has been recently observed in the laboratory, and it seems plausible that further research on artificial black holes could have won Hawking a Nobel Prize for his pioneering theoretical studies. We?ll never know, because the Nobel Prize is only awarded to living scientists. Hawking died today, at 76. To me and to many other futurists, Hawking was?is?a hero who represents the indomable human spirit. In the face of a cruel disease that confined him to a wheelchair for most of his adult life, progressively depriving him of his abilities, Hawking didn?t give up. He married twice, and fathered three children. Unable to write and speak, he used futuristic high-tech interface devices to communicate. Hawking was not only a top scientist, but also a great science writer and a visionary thinker interested in space exploration and colonization, Artificial Intelligence (AI), and the long-term future of our species. In his philosophical speculations, as in his personal life, Hawking acknowledged no limits. ?I believe what makes us unique is transcending our limits,? said Hawking in 2016, on the 55th anniversary of Yuri Gagarin?s pioneering space flight, announcing the Breakthrough Starshot initiative to send the first robotic probe to the stars. ?Nature pins us to the ground. But I just flew to America. Nature forbids me from speaking. But here I am.? Launched by Russian billionaire Yuri Milner, Breakthrough Starshot is a $100 million program to develop technologies for small robotic nanoprobes and light beams with the power to accelerate the probes to 20 percent of the speed of light?fast enough to reach the nearest star system within a generation. Hawking was on the Board of Breakthrough Starshot with Milner and Facebook's CEO Mark Zuckerberg. ?The limit that confronts us now is the great void between us and the stars,? added Hawking. ?But now we can transcend it. With light beams, lightsails and the lightest spacecraft ever built, we can launch a mission to Alpha Centauri within a generation. Today, we commit to this next great leap into the cosmos. Because we are human. And our nature is to fly.? Speaking at a 2017 science festival, Hawking called for re-igniting and accelerating the space program to "elevate humanity" and give people a sense of purpose. "I am convinced that humans need to leave Earth," he said. ?We need to rekindle the excitement of the early days of space travel in the sixties. If humanity is to continue for another million years, our future lies in boldly going where no one else has gone before.? Writing on The Independent with Stuart Russell, Max Tegmark, and Nobel laureate Frank Wilczek, Hawking observed that AI research is advancing fast and could produce machines smarter than humans. ?[There] are no fundamental limits to what can be achieved,? the scientists stated. ?[There] is no physical law precluding particles from being organised in ways that perform even more advanced computations than the arrangements of particles in human brains.? The scientists cautioned against reckless development of AI technology, which would pose important risks such as autonomous weapons and technological unemployment. In the long term, we might not be able to control advanced AIs at all. Perhaps, Hawking thought, humanity will be eventually replaced by thinking machines. ?These machines would be a new form of life, based on mechanical and electronic components, rather than macromolecules,? he said. ?They could eventually replace DNA based life, just as DNA may have replaced an earlier form of life.? But there?s another, more appealing possibility: Our descendants could find ways to copy human minds to advanced computers, a still hypothetical process known as mind uploading, and merge with thinking machines. ?It's theoretically possible to copy the brain onto a computer and so provide a form of life after death,? said Hawking. "However, this is way beyond our present capabilities." It?s worth noting that an important advance announced yesterday, the day before Hawking?s death, could allow people alive today to preserve their brain until mind uploading capabilities are developed. Perhaps some readers will achieve Hawking?s dream, and go to the stars as electronic minds. From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:02:30 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> A damn shame. >> > > ?It's shameful to die? bill w? > > > https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened > > Regards, > > Dan > > ?Now I need to explain 'tongue in cheek'? bill w? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:05:09 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 10:05:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > ?Join the Democratic Party (OK, so you'll have to hold your nose a bit, > but not as much as the Repubs) and put your money where your mouth is. > That's the partisan thinking that's gotten us into this mess. Doing it harder is exactly the wrong approach. -Dave Yeah but this is what we've got. We don't have even the dregs of a Libertarian party, do we? We have to go through some big organization with lots of money and power, and the Demos is all I can think of. When one group goes amok, then you have to become more extreme yourself to balance the equation. I notice you offered no other suggestion. Do you have one? bill w On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 6:17 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Mon, Mar 12, 2018 at 4:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> ?Join the Democratic Party (OK, so you'll have to hold your nose a bit, >> but not as much as the Repubs) and put your money where your mouth is. >> > > That's the partisan thinking that's gotten us into this mess. Doing it > harder is exactly the wrong approach. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:12:11 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 08:12:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:02 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: >>>> A damn shame. >>> >>> ?It's shameful to die? bill w? >> >> https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> > ?Now I need to explain 'tongue in cheek'? bill w? That works better if you put something like a smiley after it. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:23:08 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:23:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:05 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > Yeah but this is what we've got. We don't have even the dregs of a > Libertarian party, do we? We have to go through some big organization with > lots of money and power, and the Demos is all I can think of. When one > group goes amok, then you have to become more extreme yourself to balance > the equation. > We don't have to settle for what we've got. It's possible to make new things. I notice you offered no other suggestion. Do you have one? > Just the one I've made repeatedly: stop choosing sides, open dialogue with those you disagree with, read the John Twelve Hawks essay. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 15:59:00 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:59:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2018 11:21, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:02 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> A damn shame. >> > > ?It's shameful to die? bill w? > > > https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened > > Regards, > > Dan > > ?Now I need to explain 'tongue in cheek'? bill w? That works better if you put something like a smiley after it. Honestly I prefer no textual signifiers for online facetiousness. What is lost in clarity is gained in mutual respect for participants' ability to parse humor. I suppose, though, that emoticons and emoji are merely punctuation, and if I follow that slippery slope I might condemn exclamation points and question marks as well. But humor is a special case to me--the derivative of humor with respect to explanatory text is a large and negative value. Still not sure why Bill is talking about his tongue though. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 14 16:20:21 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 09:20:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007601d3bbb0$5a3cab40$0eb601c0$@rainier66.com> In a sense, Hawking is the closest we have come to immortality outside of cryonic preservation. Reasoning: that early text-to-voice that Hawking made famous is still around, still in use, you can feed it text and it will come out sounding like the voice we associate with Hawking. For comic relief in this time of sorrows, you can feed that voice the lyrics to a rap or hip hop. Since Hawking was completely paralyzed we don?t have his motions associated with his commentary, but he wrote the books and articles which can be fed into that text-to-voice even now, after he is gone, along with a still image of him in his wheelchair, which is all we had while he was yet with us. So in that sense Steven Hawking lives on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 17:51:22 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:51:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > On Mar 14, 2018 11:21, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: > > On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:02 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace >> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg > > wrote: >> >>> A damn shame. >>> >> >> ?It's shameful to die? bill w? >> >> >> https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> >> > ?Now I need to explain 'tongue in cheek'? bill w? > > > > That works better if you put something like a smiley after it. > ?dan > > ?Is there anything worse than explaining your jokes? I agree with Will bill w? > ? > > > Honestly I prefer no textual signifiers for online facetiousness. What is > lost in clarity is gained in mutual respect for participants' ability to > parse humor. > > I suppose, though, that emoticons and emoji are merely punctuation, and if > I follow that slippery slope I might condemn exclamation points and > question marks as well. But humor is a special case to me--the derivative > of humor with respect to explanatory text is a large and negative value. > > Still not sure why Bill is talking about his tongue though. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:00:08 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:00:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We don't have to settle for what we've got. It's possible to make new things. I notice you offered no other suggestion. Do you have one? > Just the one I've made repeatedly: stop choosing sides, open dialogue with those you disagree with, read the John Twelve Hawks essay. -Dave How are we to regard people who don't have a side? You gotta be for some things and against some things, and that puts you on a side or two. Your suggestions are fine, but we need very large numbers of people on our side to get anything done and the Dems occurred to me as the best of the sad alternatives. Create something new? Like what ? Are you talking about How We Live Now? Gimme a link to that. I can't find one. Is that content in Against Authority by him? bill w On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:05 AM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> Yeah but this is what we've got. We don't have even the dregs of a >> Libertarian party, do we? We have to go through some big organization with >> lots of money and power, and the Demos is all I can think of. When one >> group goes amok, then you have to become more extreme yourself to balance >> the equation. >> > > We don't have to settle for what we've got. It's possible to make new > things. > > I notice you offered no other suggestion. Do you have one? >> > > Just the one I've made repeatedly: stop choosing sides, open dialogue with > those you disagree with, read the John Twelve Hawks essay. > > -Dave > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Mar 14 18:06:10 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:06:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ca01d3bbbf$22579870$6706c950$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace ?>?Is there anything worse than explaining your jokes? ?bill w? Unlimited nuclear warfare? The Big Rip? Grey goo? Massive EMP? Unfriendly AI singularity? Subtle internet humor being lost is down to at least number 6 on the bad list. spike {8^D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:10:20 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:10:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > ?Is there anything worse than explaining your jokes? > Yeah, having what you intended as irony being taken at face value and causing confusion or requiring clarification. A smiley doesn't explain a joke, it flags content that shouldn't be taken seriously. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:12:38 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:12:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2234ED5C-2D2D-4966-A06F-0003E092D447@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2018, at 10:51 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: >> On Mar 14, 2018 11:21, "Dan TheBookMan" wrote: >>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:02 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:42 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>>>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 7:15 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:06 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: >>>>>> A damn shame. >>>>> >>>>> ?It's shameful to die? bill w? >>>> >>>> https://www.phrasemix.com/phrases/its-a-shame-something-happened >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>> ?Now I need to explain 'tongue in cheek'? bill w? >> >> That works better if you put something like a smiley after it.?dan > > ?Is there anything worse than explaining your jokes? I agree with Will > > bill w? >> ? >> >> Honestly I prefer no textual signifiers for online facetiousness. What is lost in clarity is gained in mutual respect for participants' ability to parse humor. >> >> I suppose, though, that emoticons and emoji are merely punctuation, and if I follow that slippery slope I might condemn exclamation points and question marks as well. But humor is a special case to me--the derivative of humor with respect to explanatory text is a large and negative value. >> >> Still not sure why Bill is talking about his tongue though. It?s sometimes hard to tell when someone is actually making a joke.... It?s a cliche too about jokes not needing explanation. I don?t adhere to that view. Sometimes it works.... But in this case it wasn?t about the joke needing to be explained. It was about whether you meant your statement literally (in the older usage) or not. (It?s not a big deal either. Don?t take this to mean I?m getting upset.;) Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:20:10 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:20:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:00 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > How are we to regard people who don't have a side? You gotta be for some > things and against some things, and that puts you on a side or two. > I have many sides, and calling myself Republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, etc, doesn't come close to representing what I believe about any particular issue. I suspect that's true of most people, but most people choose one of those labels. Your suggestions are fine, but we need very large numbers of people on our > side to get anything done and the Dems occurred to me as the best of the > sad alternatives. Create something new? Like what ? > I don't know, let's start talking and see what develops. A viable third party is one possibility, but that's nearly an oxymoron in our system. Maybe changes that help make other parties viable? > Are you talking about How We Live Now? Gimme a link to that. I can't > find one. Is that content in Against Authority by him? > I'm talking about "How to Free Your Mind in the Trump Era", of which he writes: *Recently, I?ve written and posted a new free book, How to Free Your Mind in the Trump Era. This is not a political rant, but a short essay that offers some practical advice to anyone feeling overwhelmed by America?s toxic political landscape. It?s also available on johntwelvehawks.com (https://www.johntwelvehawks.com/download-trump-era-ebook ) and a wide variety of public websites.* But, no, this is new since "Against Authority". More of an essay than a book, really. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:25:09 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:25:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Most Iranians are not religious References: <1D503A78-3B60-4FE1-B604-E506F97DE2B4@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7A9F1B87-13D5-4D47-880F-296CE9C7F64E@gmail.com> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 4:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-Iranians-are-non-believers-Islam-being-their-national-religion-and-are-prejudiced-against-Arabs >> >> Interesting site too. These are not hard data, but personal observations. Still, it might surprise most Americans to see these opinions on religion or lack thereof. > > Not surprising if you think about it. I mean most people are not hardcore anything; they just go along to get along. Or that?s my impression. I imagine if Iran had a more open society, the number of self-reported irreligious or even downright atheists would rise. (And then, over time, the numbers would continue to rise as ?coming out of the closet? on these issues would encourage the more timid.) > > I back this up with: > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Iran > > If that article can be trusted, then it seems Iranians outside Iran tend to be less religious. Inside, the social and legal penalties for atheism or even just apostasy are pretty high. > > By the way, you?ve read Pinker?s recent book where he discusses the rise of he Nones. This seems a global trend and one that extends to Iran, no? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": > http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 18:27:46 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:27:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:10 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:51 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> >> ?Is there anything worse than explaining your jokes? > > Yeah, having what you intended as irony being taken at face value and causing confusion or requiring clarification. A smiley doesn't explain a joke, it flags content that shouldn't be taken seriously. I believe you live an extraordinarily charmed life if the worst thing that happens to you is that some people didn?t get when you?re joking. ;) Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dan_ust at yahoo.com Wed Mar 14 18:22:14 2018 From: dan_ust at yahoo.com (Dan Ust) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 11:22:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Most Iranians are not religious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D503A78-3B60-4FE1-B604-E506F97DE2B4@yahoo.com> On Feb 27, 2018, at 4:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-most-Iranians-are-non-believers-Islam-being-their-national-religion-and-are-prejudiced-against-Arabs > > Interesting site too. These are not hard data, but personal observations. Still, it might surprise most Americans to see these opinions on religion or lack thereof. Not surprising if you think about it. I mean most people are not hardcore anything; they just go along to get along. Or that?s my impression. I imagine if Iran had a more open society, the number of self-reported irreligious or even downright atheists would rise. (And then, over time, the numbers would continue to rise as ?coming out of the closet? on these issues would encourage the more timid.) I back this up with: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Iran If that article can be trusted, then it seems Iranians outside Iran tend to be less religious. Inside, the social and legal penalties for atheism or even just apostasy are pretty high. By the way, you?ve read Pinker?s recent book where he discusses the rise of he Nones. This seems a global trend and one that extends to Iran, no? Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:00:02 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:00:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Myths among psychologists Message-ID: https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/03/05/belief-in-brain-myths-and-child-development-myths-continues-even-among-those-whove-studied-psychology/ Maybe Bill W can ramify this. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:01:00 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 15:01:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A viable third party is one possibility, but that's nearly an oxymoron in our system. Maybe changes that help make other parties viable? dave Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and Repubs, who want vast number of signatures for a third party. What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). We will tell a lot after the November elections what needs to be done. bill w On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:00 PM, William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> How are we to regard people who don't have a side? You gotta be for some >> things and against some things, and that puts you on a side or two. >> > > I have many sides, and calling myself Republican, Democrat, liberal, > conservative, etc, doesn't come close to representing what I believe about > any particular issue. I suspect that's true of most people, but most people > choose one of those labels. > > Your suggestions are fine, but we need very large numbers of people on our >> side to get anything done and the Dems occurred to me as the best of the >> sad alternatives. Create something new? Like what ? >> > > I don't know, let's start talking and see what develops. A viable third > party is one possibility, but that's nearly an oxymoron in our system. > Maybe changes that help make other parties viable? > > >> Are you talking about How We Live Now? Gimme a link to that. I can't >> find one. Is that content in Against Authority by him? >> > > I'm talking about "How to Free Your Mind in the Trump Era", of which he > writes: > > *Recently, I?ve written and posted a new free book, How to Free Your > Mind in the Trump Era. This is not a political rant, but a short essay that > offers some practical advice to anyone feeling overwhelmed by America?s > toxic political landscape. It?s also available on johntwelvehawks.com > > (https://www.johntwelvehawks.com/download-trump-era-ebook > ) and a wide > variety of public websites.* > > But, no, this is new since "Against Authority". More of an essay than a > book, really. > > -Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:13:23 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:13:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: <2234ED5C-2D2D-4966-A06F-0003E092D447@gmail.com> References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> <2234ED5C-2D2D-4966-A06F-0003E092D447@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > It?s sometimes hard to tell when someone is actually making a joke... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law being an extreme result of this. From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 20:47:36 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:47:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> <2234ED5C-2D2D-4966-A06F-0003E092D447@gmail.com> Message-ID: <255589D6-624A-4E74-AAA4-32E7AF9F9DA1@gmail.com> On Mar 14, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> It?s sometimes hard to tell when someone is actually making a joke... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law being an extreme result of this. Yes. By the way, a pre-internet example of this seems to have been how some received Burke?s _A Vindication..._. Godwin read it as a serious statement of anarchism and ran with that. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 21:06:42 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:06:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Evolutionary psychology was Re: I wish this was fake news Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:30 PM, Keith Henson wrote: >> You miss the evolutionary psychology mechanisms behind "sides." > No, I just don't think we're incapable of overriding them. Especially if we understood the mechanisms some of us might be able to override them. But the prehistoric, historic, and present-day events indicate we seldom, if ever, do so. My interest is in making the world a better place. Without understanding what lies behind large-scale social behavior, we are likely to make decisions leading to a lot more misery. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:32:27 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:32:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:13 AM, wrote: > > ?> ? > There are political forums available if one wants that. This isn?t one. > > ?It has been for at least 2 decades, so when did that change? ? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:36:25 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 17:36:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Myths among psychologists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/03/05/belief-in-brain- > myths-and-child-development-myths-continues-even-among- > those-whove-studied-psychology/ > > Maybe Bill W can ramify this. > > Regards, > > Dan > > ?There was a study done by a psychologist that may answer your question: he handed out a list of typical myths and noted the results. He designed his course so that each myth was given time in class and thoroughly refuted. At the end of the semester he again gave the myth list. He got approximately the same results. This, of course, is very discouraging to a teacher. It's hard to change attitudes that are popularly believed and have been held a long time. Another factor: when we pull out a memory, we can misattribute it to other than the source we actually got it from. So, picking up a myth from a friend about psychology may be remembered as coming from a psych class and not the friend, giving it validity. bill w? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Mar 14 22:58:08 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:58:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 8:07 AM, Dave Sill wrote: ?> ? > It's a false dichotomy. We're being fed two bad choices so we can feel > like we have the power to change things. > The perfect is the enemy of the good. In 2016 we were faced with having a mediocre Commander In Chief or a Chicxulub level catastrophic one; but many otherwise quite intelligent people insisted that only a perfect president would do, and so we ended up with Donald J Trump. > ?> ? > we should be looking at the big picture > ?I was looking at global thermonuclear war. Is that big enough?? ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 01:14:51 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:14:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Myths among psychologists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 14, 2018, at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/03/05/belief-in-brain-myths-and-child-development-myths-continues-even-among-those-whove-studied-psychology/ >> >> Maybe Bill W can ramify this. >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> > ?There was a study done by a psychologist that may answer your question: he handed out a list of typical myths and noted the results. He designed his course so that each myth was given time in class and thoroughly refuted. > > At the end of the semester he again gave the myth list. He got approximately the same results. This, of course, is very discouraging to a teacher. > > It's hard to change attitudes that are popularly believed and have been held a long time. Another factor: when we pull out a memory, we can misattribute it to other than the source we actually got it from. So, picking up a myth from a friend about psychology may be remembered as coming from a psych class and not the friend, giving it validity. That?s disheartening... I was wondering if maybe focusing on not every myth, but picking, say, the top three (or the middle three) and hammering away at them would work better. I picked that because I recall somewhere reading that if you pile on too many examples you just lose people. The advice was something like ?if you?re giving a talk, people should be able to walk away with around three points you?ve made.? More than that and they forget the humble. I recall an economics professor once going over what he believed to be a faulty theory and then saying if you?re go by to sleep through the rest of this class, remember this theory is completely wrong. This segues into your point in memory: the prof feared he would go over the theory (I believe it was classical capital theory) and some students would leave class not grasping his refutation but just recalling his setting up the theory. That sounds just like what you discuss above. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 15 01:27:48 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 18:27:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010d01d3bbfc$d474e660$7d5eb320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 3:32 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 12:13 AM, > wrote: ?> ? There are political forums available if one wants that. This isn?t one. ?It has been for at least 2 decades, so when did that change? ? John K Clark John I recall plenty of political meta-discussions, but in all those years, I seldom recall anyone continually promoting one of the mainstream parties. ExI was started as a libertarian?s transhumanist site. Over time, it drifted away from hardcore libertarianism to be more inclusive. I can see a political discussion on such things as the Russians promoting (successfully) the worst candidate in both of the mainstream parties, or the apparent convergence of the mainstream parties, or the coming catastrophe as the yanks struggle to deal with decades of massive government overspending and overcommitting. But I don?t see either of the mainstream parties having any big insights on that problem. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 15 02:03:35 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 22:03:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: <010d01d3bbfc$d474e660$7d5eb320$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> <010d01d3bbfc$d474e660$7d5eb320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:27 PM, wrote: > ?> ? > the coming catastrophe as the yanks struggle to deal with decades of > massive government overspending and overcommitting. But I don?t see either > of the mainstream parties having any big insights on that problem. Spike, at this point expecting big insights from government on how to solve big problems seems like the wildest of fantasies. I don't demand anything nearly that ambitious, I don't ask for the moon if we can just avoid extinction long enough for a new president of either party to take over I will be absolutely delighted. And yes you're talking to a frightened man, something is not quite right with Trump, the man scares the hell out of me. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 15 02:18:59 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:18:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> <003d01d3bb4a$be66d2a0$3b3477e0$@rainier66.com> <010d01d3bbfc$d474e660$7d5eb320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017201d3bc03$fb1f1b80$f15d5280$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:04 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I wish this was fake news On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 9:27 PM, > wrote: ?> ? the coming catastrophe as the yanks struggle to deal with decades of massive government overspending and overcommitting. But I don?t see either of the mainstream parties having any big insights on that problem. >? Spike, at this point expecting big insights from government on how to solve big problems seems like the wildest of fantasies. I don't demand anything nearly that ambitious, I don't ask for the moon if we can just avoid extinction long enough for a new president of either party to take over I will be absolutely delighted. And yes you're talking to a frightened man, something is not quite right with Trump, the man scares the hell out of me?John K Clark John, these are scary times. Much or at least part of the craziness might be an act however. Recall that America elected as head of its executive branch a former game show host, but not just any game show. It was one which made comedy of public humiliation. We could expect little else besides what we are seeing. I have never thought it likely this particular president would launch a nuclear war, but apparently the current highest risk world leader was uncertain enough of his intentions to agree to negotiations with the US on disarming. It could be that the rumors of a massive accident in the centrifuge facility is true, but we may never know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 14:50:52 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 10:50:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: <6B56C034-5857-494B-B978-1E58CD0BB9CE@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > I believe you live an extraordinarily charmed life if the worst thing that > happens to you is that some people didn?t get when you?re joking. ;) > > > It's not so bad, unless the joke is "Hey, I'm gonna hit the nuke button!" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Mar 16 23:18:13 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2018 19:18:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a good obituary of Hawking by Roger Penrose ? at: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/14/stephen-hawking-obituary? and one by ?Sean Carroll ?at: https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/stephen-hawking-sean-carroll-physics-airport/555764/ ?John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 05:08:24 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 06:08:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: Meeting in Second Life, Sunday March 25 Message-ID: Cryonics for uploaders: Meeting in Second Life, Sunday March 25 A meeting will take place in Second Life on Sunday, March 25, to discuss the recently announced ?cryonics for uploaders? breakthrough. Among the participants, Alcor CEO Max More, BPF President Ken Hayworth, and researcher Robert McIntyre... https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-meeting-in-second-life-sunday-march-25-71f3f9310b27 From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 15:43:36 2018 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 11:43:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 7:18 PM, John Clark wrote: > There is a good obituary of Hawking by Roger Penrose > ? at: > > > https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/14/stephen-hawking-obituary? > > I hope Penrose gets more well known by the public as a result of post-Hawking-death association in articles. Hawking is great but Penrose was always the epitome of a thinker to me, even if Orch-OR is a bit hand-wavy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Mar 17 16:21:16 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 09:21:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Stephen Hawking is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <794633F2-FB44-4BCE-9BDC-975A7F10D346@gmail.com> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Will Steinberg wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 7:18 PM, John Clark wrote: >> There is a good obituary of Hawking by Roger Penrose? at: >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/mar/14/stephen-hawking-obituary? >> > > I hope Penrose gets more well known by the public as a result of post-Hawking-death association in articles. Hawking is great but Penrose was always the epitome of a thinker to me, even if Orch-OR is a bit hand-wavy. Isn?t Penrose already well known? I mean he?s got five popular level books out since the late 1980s. Sure, he could always become even more well known, but it?s not like he?s unknown. Regards, Dan Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap": http://mybook.to/SandTrap -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 18 01:41:32 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 18:41:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the rest of the story. Message-ID: <00cf01d3be5a$3ecaf9a0$bc60ece0$@rainier66.com> After all these years, I find out the rest of the story just today. In 1995, Ernst Mayer and Scott Kurowski organized Prime95, which is a way to search for Mersenne primes as a background process. I started with it in 1996. December 7, 2001, we were having a local party to celebrate the discovery of the 39th Mersenne prime. We heard that Dr. Knuth himself might attend. We ordered our food. About half an hour after the order, in walks Dr. Knuth. Ernst (shown on the right in the photo) offered to have Dr. Knuth take his dinner, and he would order something else, being as how Knuth was under time pressure but Ernst was not. The Donald cheerfully accepted the offer. The food arrived a few minutes later. The professor devoured the biggest chimichanga I ever saw, inhaled the thing. When he finished eating, the Tied House wouldn't have needed to wash the plate; it was clean enough to serve the next customer. Knuth then abruptly said he had to run, thanked Ernst (whose replacement dinner was just arriving) and off he went. I think The Donald was present for perhaps 20 very memorable minutes total. Ernst contacted me yesterday asking if I had any photos of the event. He has archived my paltry collection along with this rather hilarious write-up: Spike's description of the photo of me undertaking the task to ".instruct the wayward professor in the way of truth, justice and the American Way". Knuth was a surprise shower-upper, the story behind that goes like so: Having met Knuth with Scott K shortly after moving to Silicon Valley a few years before, once we organized the M39 bash, I thought it would be neat to invite the great man himself. Turns out he was giving a CS seminar at Stanford the week before, so I showed up and at the end of the talk slipped an invite to the bash onto the edge of his lectern. Had no idea whether he'd actually show up until he did. And with a healthy appetite, too - he said he'd spent the early part of the evening at some church-music-group (he plays the pipe organ, and even has one in his home) social, where "they didn't feed me." OK then, that was the rest of the story I only learned 16 years later: Dr. Knuth was at a church organ party, nobody thought to feed him, for at such a gathering, they would treat him as any ordinary person, he shows up at the Tied House famished and under time pressure, Dr. Mayer offered his dinner, which Dr. Knuth gratefully devoured and promptly fled, Dr. Mayer ate and visited with the rest of us mere mortals at his leisure, I had the time of my life among my own living heroes. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17083 bytes Desc: not available URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 16:57:18 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 17:57:18 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders: WTF is consciousness? Message-ID: The recent ?cryonics for uploaders? breakthrough means that you could, here and now, preserve your brain for future mind uploading. But it can be argued that we don?t understand consciousness yet. For those interested, here are my current thoughts on consciousness and how it relates to mind uploading: Cryonics for uploaders: WTF is consciousness? https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-wtf-is-consciousness-784286e87dc8 From rjro at me.com Tue Mar 6 06:29:26 2018 From: rjro at me.com (Roger J. Romero) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:29:26 -0000 Subject: [ExI] Incoherent ramblings on human intelligence Message-ID: What do you guys this says about human intelligence? http://link.springer.com/10.1007/BF02221838 150-000-50,000 years is incredibly, almost unbelievably short. Let?s say the average human generation was 20 years (until reproduction), that means it only took 7,500 to 2,500 generations for humans to evolve into modern behavior. I had always thought that human intelligence was much more advanced and complex than other species, but this timeframe seems to suggest that human intelligence can not be more than a few genetic switches away from say, our chimp relatives. What I?m saying is, perhaps we have some mental ability X that allows us to act and behave like humans, maybe it?s classifying abstract->discrete relationships between world objects at a much higher level than other species, or maybe it?s having a higher level or different form of pattern recognition all together. Or, is it possible that behavioral modernity wasn?t due to a genetic change at all? And merely, humans being taught something during their critical period that previous humans hadn?t? For example, perfect pitch and color recognition are both acquired during the critical period and early childhood. If a child is exposed to high complexity audio (such as by having musician parents or speaking a pitch-based language like Mandarin), then they are more likely to acquire perfect pitch, perfect pitch is the ability to classify audio frequencies in real time to discrete note names. Similarly, color recognition also seems to be very important. The colors one is able to discern is highly reliant upon the society and culture one grows up in. Learning the names for colors in early life highly influences your ability to see and discern different colors, in cultures that have multiple colors for different shades of blue, they are able to discern between shades of blue much better than someone who doesn?t. Now this makes me think of feral children. (http://sites.psu.edu/psych256sp16/2016/04/21/the-critical-period-for-language-acquisition-and-feral-children/ ). If one has not learned to speak before puberty it is much more difficult, and sometimes impossible, to learn language and speak in a meaningful way (Coronado, 2013). Now, here?s something interesting, apparently Valporate reopens the critical period for perfect pitch. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3848041/ ). But if it is able to re-open the critical period for perfect pitch, why not for other mental tasks as well? I imagine it would have similar effects on being able to learn a new language, color classification, maybe even slightly be able to improve intelligence as well, granting a new ?critical period? for picking up complex analysis, new abstractions of complex entities, etc? I realize this is one study that may have been purely coincidental or even accidental, but I don?t see why this ?critical period? of the brain can?t be reverse engineered eventually. Also, really makes you think how much smarter the kids of tomorrow are going to be? IQ seems to be increasing at ~3 points per decade here in the US? My 2 year old nephew cousin is able to operate an iPad, switch apps, etc.. before even learning how to speak. Something else interesting, the same neurons that fish use to walk on the ocean floor also light up in land vertebrates when walking? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/science/skate-walking-fish-evolution.html these neurons are thought to have been 375 million years old? So a heavy, large portion of intelligence is very very ancient, and in comparison, human intelligence very recent. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Mar 21 23:16:42 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 18:16:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: <5A945A9E.8090408@zaiboc.net> References: <5A945A9E.8090408@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Ben Zaiboc wrote: > wrote: > > "Somewhere in this discussion I am looking for the notion that religious > people work together well as a team" > > > Haha, only with other members of the same sect of the same religion. > > In general, it seems that religion is one of the most divisive things > we've invented. > > Ben Zaiboc > > ?Religion was meant to be divisive. Early religions distinguished your > group/tribe/nation's religion from those of adjoining areas. "Our God is > better than your God." Read about Elijah and Bael. Or just listen to > Mendelssohn's music. > ?bill w? > ? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 00:07:11 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 17:07:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and Repubs, > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. > > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). No, we do not need someone. We need a lot of someones. The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and their values better.) From zoielsoy at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 11:28:21 2018 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:28:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently and essentially become a different person. On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:09 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and Repubs, > > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. > > > > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be > > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). > > No, we do not need someone. > > We need a lot of someones. > > The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up > dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are > obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an > independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned > Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for > worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes > have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. > > Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or > Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few > if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support > someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues > like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming > immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that > people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than > automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal > and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a > party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them > squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their > seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and > their values better.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 11:28:38 2018 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 11:28:38 +0000 Subject: [ExI] de Waal In-Reply-To: <5A945A9E.8090408@zaiboc.net> References: <5A945A9E.8090408@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently and essentially become a different person. On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 7:07 PM Ben Zaiboc wrote: > wrote: > > "Somewhere in this discussion I am looking for the notion that religious > people work together well as a team" > > > Haha, only with other members of the same sect of the same religion. > > In general, it seems that religion is one of the most divisive things > we've invented. > > > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 14:54:12 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 09:54:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I need to know just what 'seeds' you are talking about. People change the way their brain operates often and in many ways: alcohol, opiates, meth, caffeinated drinks, peyote, hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, and many more. Are you talking about physical things, or more like memes? bill w On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Angel Z. Lopez wrote: > What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting > ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently > and essentially become a different person. > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:09 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace >> wrote: >> > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and >> Repubs, >> > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. >> > >> > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be >> > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). >> >> No, we do not need someone. >> >> We need a lot of someones. >> >> The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up >> dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are >> obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an >> independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned >> Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for >> worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes >> have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. >> >> Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or >> Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few >> if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support >> someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues >> like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming >> immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that >> people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than >> automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal >> and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a >> party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them >> squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their >> seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and >> their values better.) >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 16:41:06 2018 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 16:41:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They?re altering wave length in the frequency to have people behave differently and think differently. Not sure how they do it. On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:59 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I need to know just what 'seeds' you are talking about. People change the > way their brain operates often and in many ways: alcohol, opiates, meth, > caffeinated drinks, peyote, hitting themselves in the head with a hammer, > and many more. > > Are you talking about physical things, or more like memes? > > bill w > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Angel Z. Lopez > wrote: > >> What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting >> ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently >> and essentially become a different person. >> >> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:09 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace >>> wrote: >>> > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and >>> Repubs, >>> > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. >>> > >>> > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be >>> > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). >>> >>> No, we do not need someone. >>> >>> We need a lot of someones. >>> >>> The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up >>> dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are >>> obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an >>> independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned >>> Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for >>> worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes >>> have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. >>> >>> Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or >>> Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few >>> if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support >>> someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues >>> like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming >>> immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that >>> people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than >>> automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal >>> and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a >>> party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them >>> squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their >>> seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and >>> their values better.) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Mar 22 18:09:23 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2018 13:09:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: INteresting. Just who is doing this? I know some studies have been done with magnets with curious results. billw On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 11:41 AM, Angel Z. Lopez wrote: > They?re altering wave length in the frequency to have people behave > differently and think differently. Not sure how they do it. > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:59 AM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I need to know just what 'seeds' you are talking about. People change >> the way their brain operates often and in many ways: alcohol, opiates, >> meth, caffeinated drinks, peyote, hitting themselves in the head with a >> hammer, and many more. >> >> Are you talking about physical things, or more like memes? >> >> bill w >> >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Angel Z. Lopez >> wrote: >> >>> What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting >>> ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently >>> and essentially become a different person. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:09 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace >>>> wrote: >>>> > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and >>>> Repubs, >>>> > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. >>>> > >>>> > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be >>>> > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). >>>> >>>> No, we do not need someone. >>>> >>>> We need a lot of someones. >>>> >>>> The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up >>>> dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are >>>> obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an >>>> independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned >>>> Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for >>>> worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes >>>> have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. >>>> >>>> Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or >>>> Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few >>>> if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support >>>> someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues >>>> like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming >>>> immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that >>>> people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than >>>> automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal >>>> and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a >>>> party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them >>>> squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their >>>> seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and >>>> their values better.) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 13:59:01 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 08:59:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] clever thing (?) of the day Message-ID: A question that answers itself in French and English: May we go now? bill w (mais oui, go now) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 18:45:50 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 14:45:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The brain learns completely differently than we've assumed since the 20th century Message-ID: Does this have any implications relating to cryonics? I can't tell. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-brain-differently-weve-assumed-20th.html *The brain is a complex network containing billions of neurons, where each of these neurons communicates simultaneously with thousands of other via their synapses (links). However, the neuron actually collects its many synaptic incoming signals through several extremely long ramified "arms" only, called dendritic trees.* *In 1949 Donald Hebb's pioneering work suggested that learning occurs in the brain by modifying the strength of the synapses, whereas neurons function as the computational elements in the brain. This has remained the common assumption until today.* *Using new theoretical results and experiments on neuronal cultures, a group of scientists, led by Prof. Ido Kanter, of the Department of Physics and the Gonda (Goldschmied) Multidisciplinary Brain Research Center at Bar-Ilan University, has demonstrated that the central assumption for nearly 70 years that learning occurs only in the synapses is mistaken.* *In an article published today in the journal Scientific Reports, the researchers go against conventional wisdom to show that learning is actually done by several dendrites, similar to the slow learning mechanism currently attributed to the synapses.* *"The newly discovered process of learning in the dendrites occurs at a much faster rate than in the old scenario suggesting that learning occurs solely in the synapses. In this new dendritic learning process, there are a few adaptive parameters per neuron, in comparison to thousands of tiny and sensitive ones in the synaptic learning scenario," said Prof. Kanter, whose research team includes Shira Sardi, Roni Vardi, Anton Sheinin, Amir Goldental and Herut Uzan.* *The newly suggested learning scenario indicates that learning occurs in a few dendrites that are in much closer proximity to the neuron, as opposed to the previous notion. "Does it make sense to measure the quality of air we breathe via many tiny, distant satellite sensors at the elevation of a skyscraper, or by using one or several sensors in close proximity to the nose? Similarly, it is more efficient for the neuron to estimate its incoming signals close to its computational unit, the neuron," says Kanter. Hebb's theory has been so deeply rooted in the scientific world for 70 years that no one has ever proposed such a different approach. Moreover, synapses and dendrites are connected to the neuron in a series, so the exact localized site of the learning process seemed irrelevant.* *Another important finding of the study is that weak synapses, previously assumed to be insignificant even though they comprise the majority of our brain, play an important role in the dynamics of our brain. They induce oscillations of the learning parameters rather than pushing them to unrealistic fixed extremes, as suggested in the current synaptic learning scenario.* *The new learning scenario occurs in different sites of the brain and therefore calls for a reevaluation of current treatments for disordered brain functionality. Hence, the popular phrase "neurons that fire together wire together", summarizing Donald Hebb's 70-year-old hypothesis, must now be rephrased. In addition, the learning mechanism is at the basis of recent advanced machine learning and deep learning achievements. The change in the learning paradigm opens new horizons for different types of deep learning algorithms and artificial intelligence based applications imitating our brain functions, but with advanced features and at a much faster speed.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 19:06:17 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 14:06:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The brain learns completely differently than we've assumed since the 20th century In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting! Now what about more studies about the influences of the glial cells on the neurons? It seems we cannot assume that modeling the neurons is the answer to everything. Annoyance: why can't we get rid of the usage 'close proximity'? Close closeness? I hate redundancy! I hate redundancy! bill w On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Dave Sill wrote: > Does this have any implications relating to cryonics? I can't tell. > > https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-brain- > differently-weve-assumed-20th.html > > *The brain is a complex network containing billions of neurons, where each > of these neurons communicates simultaneously with thousands of other via > their synapses (links). However, the neuron actually collects its many > synaptic incoming signals through several extremely long ramified "arms" > only, called dendritic trees.* > > *In 1949 Donald Hebb's pioneering work suggested that learning occurs in > the brain by modifying the strength of the synapses, whereas neurons > function as the computational elements in the brain. This has remained the > common assumption until today.* > > *Using new theoretical results and experiments on neuronal cultures, a > group of scientists, led by Prof. Ido Kanter, of the Department of Physics > and the Gonda (Goldschmied) Multidisciplinary Brain Research Center at > Bar-Ilan University, has demonstrated that the central assumption for > nearly 70 years that learning occurs only in the synapses is mistaken.* > > *In an article published today in the journal Scientific Reports, the > researchers go against conventional wisdom to show that learning is > actually done by several dendrites, similar to the slow learning mechanism > currently attributed to the synapses.* > > *"The newly discovered process of learning in the dendrites occurs at a > much faster rate than in the old scenario suggesting that learning occurs > solely in the synapses. In this new dendritic learning process, there are a > few adaptive parameters per neuron, in comparison to thousands of tiny and > sensitive ones in the synaptic learning scenario," said Prof. Kanter, whose > research team includes Shira Sardi, Roni Vardi, Anton Sheinin, Amir > Goldental and Herut Uzan.* > > *The newly suggested learning scenario indicates that learning occurs in a > few dendrites that are in much closer proximity to the neuron, as opposed > to the previous notion. "Does it make sense to measure the quality of air > we breathe via many tiny, distant satellite sensors at the elevation of a > skyscraper, or by using one or several sensors in close proximity to the > nose? Similarly, it is more efficient for the neuron to estimate its > incoming signals close to its computational unit, the neuron," says Kanter. > Hebb's theory has been so deeply rooted in the scientific world for 70 > years that no one has ever proposed such a different approach. Moreover, > synapses and dendrites are connected to the neuron in a series, so the > exact localized site of the learning process seemed irrelevant.* > > *Another important finding of the study is that weak synapses, previously > assumed to be insignificant even though they comprise the majority of our > brain, play an important role in the dynamics of our brain. They induce > oscillations of the learning parameters rather than pushing them to > unrealistic fixed extremes, as suggested in the current synaptic learning > scenario.* > > *The new learning scenario occurs in different sites of the brain and > therefore calls for a reevaluation of current treatments for disordered > brain functionality. Hence, the popular phrase "neurons that fire together > wire together", summarizing Donald Hebb's 70-year-old hypothesis, must now > be rephrased. In addition, the learning mechanism is at the basis of recent > advanced machine learning and deep learning achievements. The change in the > learning paradigm opens new horizons for different types of deep learning > algorithms and artificial intelligence based applications imitating our > brain functions, but with advanced features and at a much faster speed.* > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Mar 23 19:40:30 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 19:40:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] I wish this was fake news In-Reply-To: References: <008901d3b9a7$d9d09980$8d71cc80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I've heard rumors of this, but investigation keeps finding either just conspiracy theories with practically zero truth, or very weak & limited laboratory experiments under conditions where inducing Stockholm syndrome (if hostile mind control was the intent, rather than just testing some tech) would be far more effective. Assuming you mean physical brain waves being altered using electrodes, and not a metaphor for ordinary psychotherapy wherein the main tool is just conversation. On Thu, Mar 22, 2018, 9:44 AM Angel Z. Lopez wrote: > They?re altering wave length in the frequency to have people behave > differently and think differently. Not sure how they do it. > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:59 AM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I need to know just what 'seeds' you are talking about. People change >> the way their brain operates often and in many ways: alcohol, opiates, >> meth, caffeinated drinks, peyote, hitting themselves in the head with a >> hammer, and many more. >> >> Are you talking about physical things, or more like memes? >> >> bill w >> >> On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 6:28 AM, Angel Z. Lopez >> wrote: >> >>> What are your opinions on mind hacking? People are working on implanting >>> ?seeds? in humans in order to re-wire their brains to behave differently >>> and essentially become a different person. >>> >>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:09 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:01 PM, William Flynn Wallace >>>> wrote: >>>> > Guess who is in charge of party politics in the states? Dems and >>>> Repubs, >>>> > who want vast number of signatures for a third party. >>>> > >>>> > What we need is someone to come out of nowhere, like Obama did, but be >>>> > independent, like Wallace and Perot (was Perot ind.?). >>>> >>>> No, we do not need someone. >>>> >>>> We need a lot of someones. >>>> >>>> The chances of a non-Democrat & non-Republican president winning go up >>>> dramatically if many members of Congress and state governors are >>>> obviously affiliated with said candidate. Further, even if an >>>> independent president were elected, you need an ideologically aligned >>>> Congress to get stuff done - as Trump has shown, for better and for >>>> worse (notice where Trump has had success, and where Trump's wishes >>>> have been denied by Congress). Obama demonstrated this too. >>>> >>>> Now, these Congresspeople and governors may themselves be Democrat or >>>> Republican. (Although, for the kind of president we're promoting, few >>>> if any Republicans would be willing to buck their party and support >>>> someone who, for example, insists on truth and sound logic on issues >>>> like immigration and unemployment, rather than just claiming >>>> immigrants are the "they" we must unite against, and claiming that >>>> people who intend to hurt American coal and steel - rather than >>>> automation and reduced demand - are responsible for the loss of coal >>>> and steel jobs. TBH, the Democrats could do worse than promoting a >>>> party of responsible investors as their competition, and with them >>>> squeeze the Republicans into irrelevance. Even those who lost their >>>> seats would still win, by being in an America that supports them and >>>> their values better.) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 03:41:45 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2018 20:41:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star and computronium Message-ID: It's a shame Tabby's star wasn't discovered back in the very early days of this list when computronium was being discussed. The dimming of Tabby's star is dismissed as "just dust" when back in those days there was considerable discussion of dust motes as computer nodes for cubic AU of devices to run whole simulated environments within. Keith From giulio at gmail.com Sat Mar 24 07:00:47 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 08:00:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star and computronium In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, it's a shame that this list is showing signs of age now that Tabby's start has been discovered ;-) On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Keith Henson wrote: > It's a shame Tabby's star wasn't discovered back in the very early > days of this list when computronium was being discussed. > > The dimming of Tabby's star is dismissed as "just dust" when back in > those days there was considerable discussion of dust motes as computer > nodes for cubic AU of devices to run whole simulated environments > within. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Mar 25 00:12:49 2018 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 17:12:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Advice for a Website Design Company Message-ID: <003e01d3c3ce$02f55c30$08e01490$@natasha.cc> Hi - I need your advice. Because I no longer have time to work on my website, I need a company who I can rely on. As a bit of history on this, I recently hired one of my students to develop my site in WIX. She did a stunning job. Beautiful! I paid for Premium, VIP WIX, but their tech support / customer service is horrendous. I was frustrated and decided just to have GoDaddy take my stunning WIX site and recapture it in their coded templates. After 3 weeks they emailed me a link to the draft. It is awful. I am asking them for a refund and now need to find a team that does design good sites, listens carefully and I can get tech support from easily. Suggestions for companies who are great designers and reliable? {No freelancers please.] Thanks, Natasha Dr. Natasha Vita-More Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT Executive Director, Humanity+, Inc. Author and Co-Editor: The Transhumanist Reader Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 03:20:05 2018 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 03:20:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Advice for a Website Design Company In-Reply-To: <003e01d3c3ce$02f55c30$08e01490$@natasha.cc> References: <003e01d3c3ce$02f55c30$08e01490$@natasha.cc> Message-ID: Hi Natasha, I am have a team of coders, developers/ web designers that have been working over 5 years for me. I understand your greatest concern is having a reliable and responsive team behind your website for all technical support and we indeed have constant support to all our customers. For example: if you want to edit your page overnight, we are able to format the code and have it done for you that same night. If you?re interested our cost upfront for a new customer is $1,500.00. We can have a webpage with your current hosting compeleted In approximately two weeks. On Sat, Mar 24, 2018 at 8:34 PM Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Hi - > > > > I need your advice. Because I no longer have time to work on my website, I > need a company who I can rely on. As a bit of history on this, I recently > hired one of my students to develop my site in WIX. She did a stunning job. > Beautiful! I paid for Premium, VIP WIX, but their tech support / customer > service is horrendous. I was frustrated and decided just to have GoDaddy > take my stunning WIX site and recapture it in their coded templates. After > 3 weeks they emailed me a link to the draft. It is awful. I am asking them > for a refund and now need to find a team that does design good sites, > listens carefully and I can get tech support from easily. > > > > Suggestions for companies who are great designers and reliable? {No > freelancers please.] > > > > Thanks, > > Natasha > > > > *Dr. Natasha Vita-More * > > Professor, Graduate and Undergraduate Departments, UAT > > > Executive Director, Humanity+ , Inc. > > Author and Co-Editor: *The Transhumanist Reader > * > > Lead Science Researcher: Memory Project > > > [image: Linkedin logo_] > [image: > facebook logo] [image: > twitter logo_1] [image: > Email] > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 978 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image006.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image007.png Type: image/png Size: 29366 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 1134 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 15:44:24 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 10:44:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] privacy Message-ID: Popular topic now - Fbook etc. Just what do we want? I'll ask a bunch of libertarians and the like. Google has a program that, without exactly invading privacy, can predict flu epidemics, based on word usage - headache, fever, etc. appearing in emails. If these words appear far more frequently in a place than is usual, the Center for Disease Control could be contacted and informed of a possible epidemic. I say this is highly useful data. We could use a lot more of it for medical purposes, if nothing else. People are going to get targeted for ads, whether through Fbook likes or something else (massive data in Amazon about who buys what). Hey! It's capitalism in action. Companies that support the TV programs, web sites, and so on are not doing out of kindness and generosity. If insurance companies get our health records, there will be hell to pay - right? So we don't want that, unless someone is keeping a foot on the companies' throats. Meaning not now. But it seems to me that I really don't want privacy except for health matters, and mostly not even that, if my data can help others' health in some way. What will happen? I will get ads that are more like what I might want. Now I get ads trying to sell me things I have already bought - hardly a good thing from the ad placer's point of view. So, some kind of compromise is needed here. Total privacy will make goods and services more costly because the companies won't have the data to more correctly target consumers. Maybe there could be some national web site where I could go and tell advertisers what I do and do not want. I am never going to buy a new car - ever. So don't waste your ads on me. It does cost them, right? Sending ads to people who won't use them drives up the prices of goods and services. The implications are far and wide and I have covered only a few. I say that there can be, as in the Google example above, valid and reasonable uses of consumer data, and we should act to put regulations in place so that there is a fair amount of data sharing and a fair amount of privacy. Once it can be shown that forgoing some privacy helps millions of people and /or lowers consumer prices, I think people will share some things. OK, guys and dolls - unpack this and hack it. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 16:57:23 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 17:57:23 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Computing Heat problem solved? Message-ID: Terahertz computer chip is now within reach Mar 25, 2018 Quote: (Nanowerk News) Following three years of extensive research, Hebrew University of Jerusalem (HU) physicist Dr. Uriel Levy and his team have created technology that will enable our computers?and all optic communication devices?to run 100 times faster through terahertz microchips. Until now, two major challenges stood in the way of creating the terahertz microchip: overheating and scalability. However, in a paper published in Laser and Photonics Review ("Non-Volatile Silicon Photonics Using Nanoscale Flash Memory Technology"), Dr. Levy, head of HU?s Nano-Opto Group and HU emeritus professor Joseph Shappir have shown proof of concept for an optic technology that integrates the speed of optic (light) communications with the reliability?and manufacturing scalability?of electronics. Optic communications encompass all technologies that use light and transmit through fiber optic cables, such as the internet, email, text messages, phone calls, the cloud and data centers, among others. Optic communications are super fast but in microchips they become unreliable and difficult to replicate in large quanitites. Now, by using a Metal-Oxide-Nitride-Oxide-Silicon (MONOS) structure, Levy and his team have come up with a new integrated circuit that uses flash memory technology?the kind used in flash drives and discs-on-key?in microchips. If successful, this technology will enable standard 8-16 gigahertz computers to run 100 times faster and will bring all optic devices closer to the holy grail of communications: the terahertz chip. ---------- So when the time comes, maybe heat dissipation may not be such a big problem in Jupiter brains or Dyson sphere computing??? BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Mar 25 21:34:35 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:34:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Computing Heat problem solved? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b601d3c481$14538700$3cfa9500$@rainier66.com> >...So when the time comes, maybe heat dissipation may not be such a big problem in Jupiter brains or Dyson sphere computing??? BillK BillK! Cool man we missed you. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 9:57 AM To: Extropy Chat Subject: [ExI] Computing Heat problem solved? Terahertz computer chip is now within reach Mar 25, 2018 Quote: (Nanowerk News) Following three years of extensive research, Hebrew University of Jerusalem (HU) physicist Dr. ... the terahertz chip. ---------- _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Mar 25 21:34:55 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:34:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size Message-ID: Way back in the earliest days of this list, someone came up with an estimate of the optimum size of computronium elements. I have been looking around the net for some estimate and can't find one. It is mildly important because Tabby's star is taking another dip and it would be interesting to measure the size and consistency of the dust. Dust dims blue light more than red light. If anyone can think of a way to find or regenerate the size of a computronium node, please post or send private email. Keith From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 13:29:26 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 09:29:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 11:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Popular topic now - Fbook etc. Just what do we want? I'll ask a bunch of > libertarians and the like. > > Google has a program that, without exactly invading privacy, can predict > flu epidemics, based on word usage - headache, fever, etc. appearing in > emails. If these words appear far more frequently in a place than is > usual, the Center for Disease Control could be contacted and informed of a > possible epidemic. I say this is highly useful data. We could use a > lot more of it for medical purposes, if nothing else. > I don't think there's anything preventing them from doing that. People who want to opt out of that can use a different email provider. People are going to get targeted for ads, whether through Fbook likes or > something else (massive data in Amazon about who buys what). Hey! It's > capitalism in action. Companies that support the TV programs, web sites, > and so on are not doing out of kindness and generosity. > If you're using a "free" service, advertisements are the price you pay. Google and FB learn a lot about you and target those ads, but that's not the only way that ad-supported services work. I've replaced Google Search with DuckDuckGo because it doesn't doesn't collect or share personal information. Their ads are based on your search terms. If insurance companies get our health records, there will be hell to pay - > right? So we don't want that, unless someone is keeping a foot on the > companies' throats. Meaning not now. > I'm not sure in what sense my health insurance provider doesn't have my health records since they see every claim and prescription that's filed. But it seems to me that I really don't want privacy except for health > matters, and mostly not even that, if my data can help others' health in > some way. What will happen? I will get ads that are more like what I > might want. Now I get ads trying to sell me things I have already bought - > hardly a good thing from the ad placer's point of view. > That's perfectly fine as long as that's a decision you knowingly make. Other people want more privacy and they should be able to get it. Sure, people can opt out of using Facebook...if they don't mind giving up the most popular medium for staying in touch with friends and family. So, some kind of compromise is needed here. Total privacy will make goods > and services more costly because the companies won't have the data to more > correctly target consumers. > Again, consensual exchange of personal information for a service is OK, but it can't be mandated and we *really* need laws that protect personal information and enforce stiff penalties for violations. Zuckerberg saying "Oops, sorry." isn't enough. Maybe there could be some national web site where I could go and tell > advertisers what I do and do not want. I am never going to buy a new car - > ever. So don't waste your ads on me. It does cost them, right? Sending > ads to people who won't use them drives up the prices of goods and services. > Advertisers could easily set up such a web site. They probably don't think it would be beneficial to them. The implications are far and wide and I have covered only a few. I say > that there can be, as in the Google example above, valid and reasonable > uses of consumer data, and we should act to put regulations in place so > that there is a fair amount of data sharing and a fair amount of privacy. > > Once it can be shown that forgoing some privacy helps millions of people > and /or lowers consumer prices, I think people will share some things. > > OK, guys and dolls - unpack this and hack it. > Only consensual sharing is possible. If it's not consensual, it's not sharing, it's surveillance. You may trust the data collectors to use it wisely but that doesn't mean everyone does. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 15:22:53 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 11:22:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Keith Henson wrote: *> Tabby's star is taking another dip and it would be interesting to > measure the size and consistency of the dust. Dust dims blue light more > than red light.* The dimming of the ultraviolet is much more than the dimming of the infrared so they are able to get an idea of the size of the dust particles around Tabby's Star, they can't say exactly because that depends of the total mass of the cloud and its precise radius which is unknown, but they can say the dust particles are larger than 10^-6 meters and smaller than 2*10^-3 meters. That's pretty small, I can't see any reason a ET engineer would make a computronium node that small. And how does the computronium theory explain the observations better than the dust theory does? Are Saturn's rings made of computronium too? Even Tabetha Boyajian after whom Tabby's Star is named thinks its just dust, probably because she believes in Occam's razor . https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.07556.pdf John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 18:19:10 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 11:19:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 6:29 AM, Dave Sill wrote: > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 11:44 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: >> Maybe there could be some national web site where I could go and tell >> advertisers what I do and do not want. I am never going to buy a new car - >> ever. So don't waste your ads on me. It does cost them, right? Sending ads >> to people who won't use them drives up the prices of goods and services. > > Advertisers could easily set up such a web site. They probably don't think > it would be beneficial to them. Much of marketing is creating demand where none previously existed. You might not think you want to buy a new car/a certain drug/et cetera, but marketers see it as their job to convince you that you do want to. They only need to succeed in a relatively tiny number of cases. Unfortunately, this ignores the far larger number of cases where you've heard their pitch (or a substantially similar competitor's), decided "no", and new pitches that don't bring in a new argument - let alone spammed repetitions of the same pitch - simply won't work. In theory life circumstances may change, so what you weren't interested in 5 years ago you might now be interested in, but in practice - when advertisers even care - that argument gets pressed into practically no time (if I wasn't interested in something a few seconds ago, I almost certainly still won't be interested now when I click onto a new page). I recall that YouTube, some time ago, tried "is this advertisement relevant to you? Y/N" clickables next to the ad. I have not seen that in many months. I suspect they found an overwhelming number of Ns that could not meaningfully be correlated to anything (and thus were essentially useless in determining what advertising was considered relevant - aside from the conclusion that "almost no advertising is ever relevant", which they could not accept if they sought to display ads they could claim seemed relevant), but it would be interesting to see the data so as to confirm or refute that theory. From sparge at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 18:57:14 2018 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 14:57:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] privacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This NYT Op-Ed is excellent, good background on the FB/Cambridge Analytica thing (emphasis mine): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/opinion/facebook-cambridge-analytica.html In 2014, Cambridge Analytica, a voter-profiling company that would later provide services for Donald Trump?s 2016 presidential campaign, reached out with a request on Amazon?s ?Mechanical Turk? platform, an online marketplace where people around the world contract with others to perform various tasks. Cambridge Analytica was looking for people who were American Facebook users. It offered to pay them to download and use a personality quiz app on Facebook called thisisyourdigitallife. About 270,000 people installed the app in return for $1 to $2 per download. The app ?scraped? information from their Facebook profiles *as well as detailed information from their friends? profiles*. Facebook then provided all this data to the makers of the app, who in turn turned it over to Cambridge Analytica. A few hundred thousand people may not seem like a lot, but because Facebook users have a few hundred friends each on average, *the number of people whose data was harvested reached about 50 million*. *Most of those people had no idea that their data had been siphoned off* (after all, they hadn?t installed the app themselves), let alone that the data would be used to shape voter targeting and messaging for Mr. Trump?s presidential campaign. This weekend, after this was all exposed by The New York Times and The Observer of London, Facebook hastily made a public announcement that it was suspending Cambridge Analytica (well over a year after the election) and vehemently denied that this was a ?data breach.? Paul Grewal, a vice president and deputy general counsel at Facebook, wrote that ?the claim that this is a data breach is completely false.? He contended that Facebook users ?knowingly provided their information, no systems were infiltrated, and no passwords or sensitive pieces of information were stolen or hacked.? He also said that ?everyone involved gave their consent.? Mr. Grewal is right: This wasn?t a breach in the technical sense. It is something even more troubling: an all-too-natural consequence of Facebook?s business model, which involves having people go to the site for social interaction, only to be quietly subjected to an enormous level of surveillance. The results of that surveillance are used to fuel a sophisticated and opaque system for narrowly targeting advertisements and other wares to Facebook?s users. Facebook makes money, in other words, by profiling us and then selling our attention to advertisers, political actors and others. These are Facebook?s true customers, whom it works hard to please. Facebook doesn?t just record every click and ?like? on the site. It also collects browsing histories. It also purchases ?external? data like financial information about users (though European nations have some regulations that block some of this). Facebook recently announced its intent to merge ?offline? data ? things you do in the physical world, such as making purchases in a brick-and-mortar store ? with its vast online databases. Facebook even creates ?shadow profiles? of nonusers. That is, *even if you are not on Facebook, the company may well have compiled a profile of you*, inferred from data provided by your friends or from other data. This is an involuntary dossier from which you cannot opt out in the United States. Despite Facebook?s claims to the contrary, everyone involved in the Cambridge Analytica data-siphoning incident did not give his or her ?consent? ? at least not in any meaningful sense of the word. It is true that if you found and read all the fine print on the site, you might have noticed that in 2014, your Facebook friends had the right to turn over all your data through such apps. (Facebook has since turned off this feature.) If you had managed to make your way through a bewildering array of options, you might have even discovered how to turn the feature off. This wasn?t informed consent. This was the exploitation of user data and user trust. Let?s assume, for the sake of argument, that you had explicitly consented to turn over your Facebook data to another company. Do you keep up with the latest academic research on computational inference? Did you know that algorithms now do a pretty good job of inferring a person?s personality traits, sexual orientation, political views, mental health status, substance abuse history and more just from his or her Facebook ?likes? ? and that there are new applications of this data being discovered every day? Given this confusing and rapidly changing state of affairs about what the data may reveal and how it may be used, consent to ongoing and extensive data collection can be neither fully informed nor truly consensual ? especially since it is practically irrevocable. What did Cambridge Analytica do with all the data? With whom else might it have shared it? In 2015, Facebook sent a stern letter to Cambridge Analytica asking that the data be deleted. Cambridge Analytica employees have said that the company merely checked a box indicating that the data was deleted, at which point Facebook decided not to inform the 50 million users who were affected by the breach, nor to make the issue public, nor to sanction Cambridge Analytica at the time. The New York Times and The Observer of London are reporting that *the data was not deleted*. And Cambridge Analytica employees are claiming that the data formed the backbone of the company?s operations in the 2016 presidential election. If Facebook failed to understand that this data could be used in dangerous ways, that it shouldn?t have let anyone harvest data in this manner and that a third-party ticking a box on a form wouldn?t free the company from responsibility, it had no business collecting anyone?s data in the first place. But the vast infrastructure Facebook has built to obtain data, and its consequent half-a-trillion-dollar market capitalization, suggest that the company knows all too well the value of this kind of vast data surveillance. Should we all just leave Facebook? That may sound attractive but it is not a viable solution. In many countries, Facebook and its products simply are the internet. Some employers and landlords demand to see Facebook profiles, and* there are increasingly vast swaths of public and civic life ? from volunteer groups to political campaigns to marches and protests ? that are accessible or organized only via Facebook*. The problem here goes beyond Cambridge Analytica and what it may have done. What other apps were allowed to siphon data from millions of Facebook users? *What if one day Facebook decides to suspend from its site a presidential campaign or a politician whose platform calls for things like increased data privacy* for individuals and limits on data retention and use? What if it decides to share data with one political campaign and not another? What if it gives better ad rates to candidates who align with its own interests? A business model based on vast data surveillance and charging clients to opaquely target users based on this kind of extensive profiling will inevitably be misused. The real problem is that billions of dollars are being made at the expense of the health of our public sphere and our politics, and crucial decisions are being made unilaterally, and without recourse or accountability. *Zeynep Tufekci (@zeynep) is an associate professor at the School of Information and Library Science at the University of North Carolina, the author of ?Twitter and Tear Gas: The Power and Fragility of Networked Protest? and a contributing opinion writer.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 26 20:32:28 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 13:32:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 5:34 PM, Keith Henson > wrote: >> Tabby's star is taking another dip and it would be interesting to measure the size and consistency of the dust. Dust dims blue light more than red light. >? the dust particles are larger than 10^-6 meters and smaller than 2*10^-3 meters. That's pretty small, I can't see any reason a ET engineer would make a computronium node that small? Indeed sir? If they are up in the 1 ? 2 mm range I would be puzzled about why they are so big. For a lotta thermodynamic reasons, about .1 mm is right in the zone for computronium. In that range, your surface area to volume ratio is good for collecting sufficient energy from the star while still being able to reject heat passively (the jury is still out on the thermodynamic considerations after all this time.) >?And how does the computronium theory explain the observations better than the dust theory does? The dust notion depends on whatever caused the dust to have been a very recent event. Otherwise the cloud would be more uniform than they are, ja? It is possible of course that we are seeing the aftermath of something that happened within the last few tens of thousands of years. But computronium will be as clumpy as is practical. >?Are Saturn's rings made of computronium too? Not yet. Working that. >?Even Tabetha Boyajian after whom Tabby's Star is named thinks its just dust, probably because she believes in Occam's razor? Sure but what if? we discovered a portrait of William of Ockham and? he had a huge shaggy beard? Would she still believe in it? John we recognize there is plenty of wishful thinking orbiting Tabby?s star. If it fires our collective imagination and gets smart ambitious grad students to get with it on their calcs of what a computronium cloud would look like, perhaps this will eventually result in a computronium cloud around our sun. A natural random event looks (from a distance) like a technological structure, resulting in a tech-advanced species inventing a technological structure that looks (from a distance) like a natural random event. spike . https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.07556.pdf John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 26 20:50:37 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 13:50:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007101d3c544$18967d40$49c377c0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >>? the dust particles are larger than 10^-6 meters and smaller than 2*10^-3 meters. That's pretty small, I can't see any reason a ET engineer would make a computronium node that small?John >?Indeed sir? If they are up in the 1 ? 2 mm range I would be puzzled about why they are so big. For a lotta thermodynamic reasons, about .1 mm is right in the zone for computronium?. spike This is waaaaay the heck back here in 2018: https://singularityhub.com/2018/03/26/ibms-new-computer-is-the-size-of-a-grain-of-salt-and-costs-less-than-10-cents/?utm_source=Singularity+Hub+Newsletter &utm_campaign=580cc12fa7-Hub_Daily_Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f0cf60cdae-580cc12fa7-57458369#sm.000ugx5p7122e2310qt2dmxu2u0k0 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Mar 26 21:19:11 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 17:19:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 4:32 PM, wrote: ?> ? > *computronium will be as clumpy as is practical.* ?Why? John K Clark? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Mar 26 23:38:46 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 16:38:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009b01d3c55b$96556130$c3002390$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 4:32 PM, > wrote: ?> ?>computronium will be as clumpy as is practical. ?>?Why? >?John K Clark? To reduce latency and minimize intercommunication energy use. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 00:08:50 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 17:08:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip >but they can say the dust particles are larger than 10^-6 meters and smaller than 2*10^-3 meters. That's pretty small, I can't see any reason a ET engineer would make a computronium node that small. I think the long ago speculations were that size or smaller. > And how does the computronium theory explain the observations better than the dust theory does? Are Saturn's rings made of computronium too? Even Tabetha Boyajian after whom Tabby's Star is named thinks its just dust, probably because she believes in Occam's razor . Dust has problems. It should radiate a lot of low grad heat which they have not seen. I agree that a non-alien explanation is a lot more likely, in fact, it's my opinion that there are none within our light cone. But given that this list long ago identified one endpoint of technology that would look like dust, finding some does not rule out aliens--yet. I have not worked out the numbers (would they be short of energy or matter?) but I can see that orbiting computronium might have been derived from a disassembled planet. That would give the long dips we see in the Kepler data. Spike wrote: > *computronium will be as clumpy as is practical.* John wrote: > ?Why? Speed of light limited communication delays. That's already a major engineering concern here on earth. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 01:04:45 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 21:04:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: <009b01d3c55b$96556130$c3002390$@rainier66.com> References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d3c55b$96556130$c3002390$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 7:38 PM, wrote: > ?> ? > *To reduce latency and minimize intercommunication energy use.* > > ?That would explain why you'd make one region dense with computronium ?but why make another region less dense? Why is it better if its lumpy? John K Clark ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 27 01:39:31 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 18:39:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d3c55b$96556130$c3002390$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006501d3c56c$74c69eb0$5e53dc10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 6:05 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 7:38 PM, > wrote: ?> ? To reduce latency and minimize intercommunication energy use. ?That would explain why you'd make one region dense with computronium ?but why make another region less dense? Why is it better if its lumpy? John K Clark ? If the system is metal-limited, then some regions are less dense in order to allow other regions to be more dense. Another possibility: some regions are less dense in order to enable some specific function, such as the more computationally-intensive less communications-intensive activities. For instance, imagine the system wants to search for Mersenne Primes. In the neighborhoods working on that, high latency is irrelevant. A node might calculate away for years not needing to talk or listen at all. Those nodes need lots of space, so that they can collect sufficient energy and radiate waste heat. Other applications might not compute as much, but they are far more yakkity, such as most things we do with our processors. These would do better in more densely packed smaller-node regions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 14:19:45 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 15:19:45 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_genes_don=E2=80=99t_hold_all_the_answers_for?= =?utf-8?q?_biologists?= Message-ID: Despite being central to the subject for over a century, there has never been a universally accepted, constant definition of what genes actually are. From the beginning, scientists have tried to link human characteristics to genes, but had limited success in establishing stable connections. Quote: As a consequence, the function of genes is now understood to depend on systems of epigenetic inheritance and environmental signalling. Whether a gene is activated (or not) to produce a protein depends on how it is ?packaged? into chromosomes, and information the organism receives from the environment. The most important insight associated with the discovery of the gene in the early 20th century was that the order in which genes operate does not reflect the order in which the human (or plant or animal) body develops. One gene is not linked to one physical trait ? many genes control many traits. Likewise, a single trait is often controlled by hundred of genes forming complex networks of interaction. With the subsequent identification of DNA as the hereditary material in 1953, it became possible to directly access and manipulate the genetic code. Even with this discovery, however, it turned out that genes are not well-defined stretches of DNA that translate directly into the structure of proteins. Genes may consist of separate building blocks that are distributed over the genome and have different functions. They may overlap and be read in a variety of ways. Their products in turn, may be cut into pieces and then spliced together again in a variety of ways. All of these activities depend on a variety of signals ? from within the cell, from other cells, or from the environment. --------------- So it now turns out that gene expression is both nature *and* nurture. Well, who'd have thought that! BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 17:02:49 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:02:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] UFO speeding near helicopter Message-ID: <886334F2-7F7C-4128-8E6D-6BA40CE1F9F3@gmail.com> https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/ufos-spotted-speeding-past-rescue-helicopter/ One thing to note about the video: the UFO appears to be in front of the helicopter. Watch closely the part where it (or they) sweep through the area occupied by the copter. This makes me believe it might be some object very close to the camera being mistaken for something distant. Also the fact that it (or they) sweep in front and appear blurry reinforces my belief: a close object (or other artifact such as a reflection on a window) near the camera would be more out of focus hence have a ghostly appearance. I haven?t checked any skeptic or debunker sites on this yet. Just offering up my speculation before doing so. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Mar 27 17:45:32 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 10:45:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] UFO speeding near helicopter In-Reply-To: <886334F2-7F7C-4128-8E6D-6BA40CE1F9F3@gmail.com> References: <886334F2-7F7C-4128-8E6D-6BA40CE1F9F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008b01d3c5f3$683eb060$38bc1120$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Subject: [ExI] UFO speeding near helicopter https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/ufos-spotted-speeding-past-rescue-helicopter/ >?One thing to note about the video: the UFO appears to be in front of the helicopter. ? >?I haven?t checked any skeptic or debunker sites on this yet. Just offering up my speculation before doing so. >?Regards, Dan Long distance lens, quad-rotor drone in the foreground. No need to reach for a complicated explanation on this one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 19:20:02 2018 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 14:20:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_genes_don=E2=80=99t_hold_all_the_answers_for?= =?utf-8?q?_biologists?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So it now turns out that gene expression is both nature *and* nurture. Well, who'd have thought that! BillK Me - after a couple of books on epigenetics, which I think I recommended to the group bill w On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 9:19 AM, BillK wrote: > Despite being central to the subject for over a century, there has > never been a universally accepted, constant definition of what genes > actually are. From the beginning, scientists have tried to link human > characteristics to genes, but had limited success in establishing > stable connections. > > answers-for-biologists-92194> > > Quote: > As a consequence, the function of genes is now understood to depend on > systems of epigenetic inheritance and environmental signalling. > Whether a gene is activated (or not) to produce a protein depends on > how it is ?packaged? into chromosomes, and information the organism > receives from the environment. > > The most important insight associated with the discovery of the gene > in the early 20th century was that the order in which genes operate > does not reflect the order in which the human (or plant or animal) > body develops. One gene is not linked to one physical trait ? many > genes control many traits. Likewise, a single trait is often > controlled by hundred of genes forming complex networks of > interaction. > > With the subsequent identification of DNA as the hereditary material > in 1953, it became possible to directly access and manipulate the > genetic code. Even with this discovery, however, it turned out that > genes are not well-defined stretches of DNA that translate directly > into the structure of proteins. > > Genes may consist of separate building blocks that are distributed > over the genome and have different functions. They may overlap and be > read in a variety of ways. Their products in turn, may be cut into > pieces and then spliced together again in a variety of ways. All of > these activities depend on a variety of signals ? from within the > cell, from other cells, or from the environment. > --------------- > > So it now turns out that gene expression is both nature *and* nurture. > Well, who'd have thought that! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Mar 27 19:44:51 2018 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 12:44:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] UFO speeding near helicopter In-Reply-To: <008b01d3c5f3$683eb060$38bc1120$@rainier66.com> References: <886334F2-7F7C-4128-8E6D-6BA40CE1F9F3@gmail.com> <008b01d3c5f3$683eb060$38bc1120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <149D831E-C217-4348-8D4F-F057B85472F3@gmail.com> On Mar 27, 2018, at 10:45 AM, wrote: > https://nypost.com/2018/03/26/ufos-spotted-speeding-past-rescue-helicopter/ > > >?One thing to note about the video: the UFO appears to be in front of the helicopter. ? > >?I haven?t checked any skeptic or debunker sites on this yet. Just offering up my speculation before doing so. > > Long distance lens, quad-rotor drone in the foreground. No need to reach for a complicated explanation on this one. Thanks! So, in a way, I was right. The blades are between the cooter and the lens at that point. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 18:15:40 2018 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 11:15:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_genes_don=E2=80=99t_hold_all_the_answers_for?= =?utf-8?q?_biologists?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, there is consensus on what genes are: small groups of amino acids in DNA or RNA. Though most genes don't result 1-to-1 in characteristics; most characteristics are the result of several genes. On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:19 AM, BillK wrote: > Despite being central to the subject for over a century, there has > never been a universally accepted, constant definition of what genes > actually are. From the beginning, scientists have tried to link human > characteristics to genes, but had limited success in establishing > stable connections. > > > > Quote: > As a consequence, the function of genes is now understood to depend on > systems of epigenetic inheritance and environmental signalling. > Whether a gene is activated (or not) to produce a protein depends on > how it is ?packaged? into chromosomes, and information the organism > receives from the environment. > > The most important insight associated with the discovery of the gene > in the early 20th century was that the order in which genes operate > does not reflect the order in which the human (or plant or animal) > body develops. One gene is not linked to one physical trait ? many > genes control many traits. Likewise, a single trait is often > controlled by hundred of genes forming complex networks of > interaction. > > With the subsequent identification of DNA as the hereditary material > in 1953, it became possible to directly access and manipulate the > genetic code. Even with this discovery, however, it turned out that > genes are not well-defined stretches of DNA that translate directly > into the structure of proteins. > > Genes may consist of separate building blocks that are distributed > over the genome and have different functions. They may overlap and be > read in a variety of ways. Their products in turn, may be cut into > pieces and then spliced together again in a variety of ways. All of > these activities depend on a variety of signals ? from within the > cell, from other cells, or from the environment. > --------------- > > So it now turns out that gene expression is both nature *and* nurture. > Well, who'd have thought that! > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Wed Mar 28 19:03:22 2018 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2018 20:03:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Why_genes_don=E2=80=99t_hold_all_the_answers_for?= =?utf-8?q?_biologists?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's like saying Shakespeare's writings are just small groups of letters in various arrangements. :) It's true but not explaining very much. My understanding is that he is saying that a gene is not like an ON/OFF switch for things like blue eyes, ginger hair, etc. A gene is more like an assembly of Lego bricks that can join on to other Lego bricks, or split up and recombine with other bits of Lego, or just be ignored in the construction kit. So any particular gene may contribute to many different functions, (or none), depending on how it is expressed. The full article (and the book) explains what he is trying to say. Quote: Genes may consist of separate building blocks that are distributed over the genome and have different functions. They may overlap and be read in a variety of ways. Their products in turn, may be cut into pieces and then spliced together again in a variety of ways. All of these activities depend on a variety of signals ? from within the cell, from other cells, or from the environment. It is these insights into genetic mechanisms which made a single rigid definition of the gene impossible. Instead, experimental systems were developed in which genes were defined flexibly in order to track processes involved in the development and evolution of organisms. What it is to be a gene varies widely, just as everything else does in biology, since genes are not so much autonomous units of life, but themselves a product of evolution. ----------- BillK On 28 March 2018 at 19:15, Adrian Tymes wrote: > No, there is consensus on what genes are: small groups of amino acids > in DNA or RNA. Though most genes don't result 1-to-1 in > characteristics; most characteristics are the result of several genes. > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:19 AM, BillK wrote: >> Despite being central to the subject for over a century, there has >> never been a universally accepted, constant definition of what genes >> actually are. From the beginning, scientists have tried to link human >> characteristics to genes, but had limited success in establishing >> stable connections. >> >> >> >> Quote: >> As a consequence, the function of genes is now understood to depend on >> systems of epigenetic inheritance and environmental signalling. >> Whether a gene is activated (or not) to produce a protein depends on >> how it is ?packaged? into chromosomes, and information the organism >> receives from the environment. >> >> The most important insight associated with the discovery of the gene >> in the early 20th century was that the order in which genes operate >> does not reflect the order in which the human (or plant or animal) >> body develops. One gene is not linked to one physical trait ? many >> genes control many traits. Likewise, a single trait is often >> controlled by hundred of genes forming complex networks of >> interaction. >> >> With the subsequent identification of DNA as the hereditary material >> in 1953, it became possible to directly access and manipulate the >> genetic code. Even with this discovery, however, it turned out that >> genes are not well-defined stretches of DNA that translate directly >> into the structure of proteins. >> >> Genes may consist of separate building blocks that are distributed >> over the genome and have different functions. They may overlap and be >> read in a variety of ways. Their products in turn, may be cut into >> pieces and then spliced together again in a variety of ways. All of >> these activities depend on a variety of signals ? from within the >> cell, from other cells, or from the environment. >> --------------- >> >> So it now turns out that gene expression is both nature *and* nurture. >> Well, who'd have thought that! >> >> BillK >> >> _______________________________________________What it is to be a gene varies widely, just as everything else does in biology, since genes are not so much autonomous units of life, but themselves a product of evolution. >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From giulio at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 06:08:48 2018 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 08:08:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders discussion: Video Message-ID: Cryonics for uploaders discussion: Video A meeting took place in Second Life on Sunday, March 25, 2018, to discuss ?cryonics for uploaders? after the award of the final Brain Preservation Prize.... https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders-discussion-video-1f59e77b3aa9 From tara at taramayastales.com Tue Mar 27 16:04:52 2018 From: tara at taramayastales.com (Tara Maya) Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2018 09:04:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Tabby's star, computronium size In-Reply-To: References: <005301d3c541$8f87bca0$ae9735e0$@rainier66.com> <009b01d3c55b$96556130$c3002390$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > ?> ?To reduce latency and minimize intercommunication energy use. > > > ?That would explain why you'd make one region dense with computronium ?but why make another region less dense? Why is it better if its lumpy? > > John K Clark ? > One group of the aliens probably imposed tariffs on another group, leading to economic inefficiencies... Tara -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Mar 29 18:46:44 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:46:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] but does it really dark matter? Message-ID: <004c01d3c78e$498fca40$dcaf5ec0$@rainier66.com> A couple yrs ago the big news (outside of LIGO) was the finding of an oddball diffuse galaxy made up almost entirely of dark matter: https://www.space.com/33850-weird-galaxy-is-mostly-dark-matter.html Now they found its counterpart, a galaxy that is almost missing dark matter. https://www.space.com/40119-ghostly-galaxy-almost-no-dark-matter.html?utm_so urce=sdc-newsletter &utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20180329-sdc Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Mar 29 19:10:01 2018 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2018 15:10:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cryonics for uploaders discussion: Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:08 AM, Giulio Prisco wrote: ?*> ?* > > *Cryonics for uploaders discussion: Video? ?A meeting took place in Second > Life on Sunday, March 25, 2018, to? ?discuss ?cryonics for ?> ?uploaders? > after the award of the final Brain? ?Preservation Prize....* > https://turingchurch.net/cryonics-for-uploaders- > discussion-video-1f59e77b3aa9 ?Thanks for the link Giulio that was interesting, especially Kenneth Hayworth's comment that in his opinion preserving the brain connectome would be good enough for uploading and infusing glutaraldehyde would help in allowing you to evenly distribute cryoprotectant better; but his idea ASC should not be offered until its been proven to work made no sense to me and insisting it should go through the same amount of red tape that a new cancer drug does before its approved made even less sense. The only way we'll know for sure that any Cryonics procedure works is when we successfully revive somebody, and if the technology was that good curing any disease would be easy so nobody would ever need to be cryopreserved again. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Mar 31 03:32:45 2018 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 20:32:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Cambridge Analytica scandal Message-ID: Bit long, but our brush with our computer overlords did not work out so well. Keiht Computer science faces an ethics crisis. The Cambridge Analytica scandal proves it. March 22, 2018 Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg speaks at a conference in San Jose, Calif., in 2017. Cambridge Analytica scraped up Facebook data from more than 50 million people. Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg speaks at a conference in San Jose, Calif., in 2017. Cambridge Analytica scraped up Facebook data from more than 50 million people. Cambridge Analytica built a weapon. They did so understanding what uses its buyers had for it, and it worked exactly as intended. To help clients manipulate voters, the company built psychological profiles from data that it surreptitiously harvested from the accounts of 50 million Facebook users. But what Cambridge Analytica did was hardly unique or unusual in recent years: a week rarely goes by when some part of the Internet, working as intended, doesn=E2=80=99t cause appreciable harm. I didn=E2=80=99t come up in computer science; I began my career as a physicist. That transition gave me a specific perspective on this situation. That the field of computer science, unlike other sciences, has not yet faced serious negative consequences for the work its practitioners do. Chemistry had its first reckoning with dynamite; horror at its consequences led its inventor, Alfred Nobel, to give his fortune to the prize that bears his name. Only a few years later, its second reckoning began when chemist Clara Immerwahr committed suicide the night before her husband and fellow chemist, Fritz Haber, went to stage the first poison gas attack on the Eastern Front. Physics had its reckoning when nuclear bombs destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and so many physicists became political activists =E2=80=94 some for arms control, some for weapons development. Human biology had eugenics. Medicine had Tuskegee and thalidomide. Civil engineering, a series of building, bridge, and dam collapses. (My thanks to many Twitter readers for these examples.) These events profoundly changed their respective fields, and the way people come up in them. Before these crises, each field was dominated by visions of how it could make the world a better place. New dyes, new materials, new sources of energy, new modes of transport =E2=80=94 everyone could see the beauty. Afterward, everyone became painfully aware of how their work could be turned against their dreams. Get Truth and Consequences in your inbox: Michael A. Cohen tekes on the absurdities and hypocrisies of the current political moment. Each field dealt with its reckoning in its own way. Physics and chemistry rarely teach dedicated courses on ethics, but the discussion is woven into every aspect of daily life, from the first days of one=E2=80=99s education. As a graduate student, one of the two professors I was closest to would share stories of the House Un-American Activities Committee and the anti-war movement; the other would talk obliquely about his classified work on nuclear weapons. Engineering, like medicine, developed codes of ethics and systems of licensure. Human biology, like psychology, developed strong institutional review boards and processes. None of these processes, of course, prevent all ethical lapses, and they neither require nor create agreement about which choices are right. Many physicists, for example, began avoiding working on problems with military applications in the years after the McCarthy hearings and the Vietnam War. But many others do such research, and the issue is frequently and hotly debated. Computer science is a field of engineering. Its purpose is to build systems to be used by others. But even though it has had its share of events which could have prompted a deeper reckoning =E2=80=94 from the Therac-25 accidents, in which misprogrammed radiation therapy machines killed three people, up to IBM=E2=80=99s role in the Holocaust =E2=80=94 and even though the things it builds are becoming as central to our lives as roads and bridges, computer science has not yet come to terms with the responsibility that comes with building things which so profoundly affect people=E2=80=99s lives. Software engineers continue to treat safety and ethics as specialities, rather than the foundations of all design; young engineers believe they just need to learn to code, change the world, disrupt something. Business leaders focus on getting a product out fast, confident that they will not be held to account if that product fails catastrophically. Simultaneously imagining their products as changing the world and not being important enough to require safety precautions, they behave like kids in a shop full of loaded AK-47=E2=80=99s. * * * What would a higher standard of care look like? First of all, safety would be treated as a principal concern at all stages, even when =E2=80=9Cjust trying to get something out the door,=E2=80=9D and engineers=E2=80=99 education would equip them to do so. If safety came first, the Facebook Graph API used by Cambridge Analytica, which raised widespread alarm among engineers from the moment it first launched in 2010, would likely never have seen the light of day. Tech companies focus intensely on preventing crashes. A rigorous effort to anticipate what could go wrong is already standard practice for specialists in system reliability, which deals with =E2=80=9Cwhat-ifs=E2=80=9D around computer failures. A higher standard for safety would simply do the same for =E2=80=9Cwhat-ifs=E2=80=9D around human consequences. This would not imply that all systems should be built to the same safety standards; nobody expects a tent to be built like a skyscraper. But the civil engineer=E2=80=99s approach would require a substantial shift of priorities. Such a shift would sometimes be resisted for business reasons, but working codes of ethics give engineers (and others) more power to say =E2=80=9Cno.=E2=80=9D If breaking ethics rules would mean the end of someone=E2=80=99s career, an employer couldn=E2=80=99t easily replace someone who refuses to cheat. If the systems for enforcement are well-built, a competitor couldn=E2=80=99t easily work around those standards. Uniform codes of ethics give engineers more of a voice in protecting the public. Underpinning all of these need to be systems for deciding on what computer science ethics should be, and how they should be enforced. These will need to be built by a consensus among the stakeholders in the field, from industry, to academia, to capital, and most importantly, among the engineers and the public, who are ultimately most affected. It must be done with particular attention to diversity of representation. In computer science, more than any other field, system failures tend to affect people in different social contexts (race, gender, class, geography, disability) differently. Familiarity with the details of real life in these different contexts is required to prevent disaster. There are many methods by which different fields enforce their ethics, from the institutional review boards that screen life-sciences experiments on humans and animals, to the mid-career certification of professional engineers who then oversee projects used by the unsuspecting public, to the across-the-board licensure of doctors and lawyers. Each of these approaches has advantages, and computer science would need to combine ideas and innovate on them to build something suited to its specific needs. What would not be acceptable is the consequence of inaction. The public would lose trust in technology, and computer scientists would face a host of practical, commercial, and regulatory consequences. Computers have made having friends on the other side of the world as normal as having them next door, have put the sum of human knowledge in our pockets, and have made nearly every object we encounter more reliable and less expensive. Yet their failure, whether by accident or by unthinking design, can have catastrophic consequences for individuals and society alike. What stands between these is attention to the core questions of engineering: to what uses might a system be put? How might it fail? And how will it behave when it does? Computer science must step up to the bar set by its sister fields, before its own bridge collapse =E2=80=94 or worse, its own Hiroshima. Yonatan Zunger, now at the startup Humu, is a former distinguished engineer in security and privacy at Google. Follow him on Twitter @yonatanzunger. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of hackers-l Digest - Monday, March 26, 2018 ********* From spike at rainier66.com Sat Mar 31 05:39:10 2018 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 22:39:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Cambridge Analytica scandal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008501d3c8b2$98b52aa0$ca1f7fe0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 8:33 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] The Cambridge Analytica scandal Bit long, but our brush with our computer overlords did not work out so well. Keiht >... >...Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg speaks at a conference in San Jose, Calif., in 2017. Cambridge Analytica scraped up Facebook data from more than 50 million people. >...Cambridge Analytica built a weapon... Keith recall the commentary about 15 yrs ago in this forum regarding modern warfare. World War 4 would involve little or no violent chemical reactions, no hurling of projectiles, it would be unclear when it started, many if not most people on the planet would be unaware that it was going on or who were the contestants, but it would be warfare in any case. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Mar 24 16:33:42 2018 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2018 16:33:42 -0000 Subject: [ExI] The brain learns completely differently than we've assumed since the 20th century In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AB679A1.4040704@zaiboc.net> Dave Sill Asked: > Does this have any implications relating to cryonics? I can't tell. > https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-brain-differently-weve-assumed-20th.html No. That article isn't as much news as it claims to be. It certainly doesn't overturn our understanding of how neurons work. Refines it a little, maybe, but that's all. Typical journalistic hype. Ben Zaiboc