[ExI] Science or Scientism?

Tue Nov 13 23:30:43 UTC 2018

Well, you have missed one of the greatest acting jobs in the 20th century.
bill w

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 4:51 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> I tend to avoid both movies and books with strong mental health scenes.
> They’re too hard on me emotionally. So I haven’t read the book or watched
> the movie.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Nov 13, 2018, at 4:32 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> The relationship between mental patients and staff reminds me of the one
> between cops and suspects.  A big gap is there in both cases, and the cop
> and the staff member are both afraid of the suspect or patient.  That makes
> them more susceptible to violence.  And second, the patient and the suspect
> are both dehumanized, like the Jews were to the Nazis, so that something
> done to them is not really something done to a fully human person.
>
> "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest"  Ever see that?  What did you think of
> the part played by Jack Nicholson?  Did you think he was 'crazy'?  That is,
> psychotic?
>
> He wasn't.  He was perfectly sane but a psychopath.  A rather harmless
> one.  When they gave him shock treatment, it was not as a treatment but as
> a punishment, since neither the psychopath nor the psychotic benefits from
> shock treatment - only depressives do, and not all of them.  As that did
> not work, they gave him a lobotomy.  Dark days in the treatment of mental
> patients.  As most of them have been.
>
> bill w
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:58 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Abuse by staff in centers is so, so common. I have been verbally harassed
>> and threatened by staff, threatened with restraints, and with heavy drugs.
>> And I’ve also been threatened with police action and forced into “high
>> security” wards before. For honestly, not doing very much. For example,
>> saying the word “hell” or because of a stigma attached to my diagnosis.
>>
>> I’ve seen people given shots and five-point restraints and all of that.
>> And it’s definitely shocking, disturbing stuff.
>>
>> To a certain extent I blame them, and to an extent I don’t. I understand
>> why a culture of abuse nearly always grows in places like that, not that I
>> condone it. It’s a similar reason to why guards brutalize inmates— it’s a
>> natural outgrowth of how the institution is set up. For example Japanese
>> prisons rarely have any of the kind of violence that American ones do. But
>> that’s because they are managed in a completely different way to American
>> prisons.
>>
>> I think it wouldn’t be so much of a problem if people just understood
>> what’s expected of them (as a patient) in psych. When they get in, they’re
>> not in a place where they really can learn.
>>
>> And different setups really do matter. Like the difference between psych
>> at a county facility versus private hospital is nearly indescribable. The
>> private psych was honestly quite helpful. County psych is honestly very
>> dangerous at times.
>>
>> SR Ballard
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2018, at 1:22 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  For example, my mother suffered from catatonic depression for about a
>> year after losing one of her jobs.
>>
>> That reminds me of one of the uglier aspects of working in a mental
>> hospital - harassment by the staff.  Once we had a patient with catatonia
>> and he exhibited waxy flexibility.
>>
>> So the staff would put his arms and/or legs into a certain position and
>> he would hold it just like that.  Then another position, etc.  Sadly, the
>> patient knew exactly what they were doing and that they were laughing at
>> him the whole time, and it made him hostile.
>>
>> I also saw a guy punched.  All of the above happened when I was just an
>> aide.  Aides would never do any of this stuff around upper staff.  Some
>> staff were really cruel.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:50 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I’m quite inclined to agree with you on all counts here. If I knew that
>>> my child would have issues such as Downs, micro encephalitis, hydro
>>> encephalitis, etc, I would not keep the child. Whether that meant getting
>>> an elective, or giving up for adoption.
>>>
>>> To be honest, I’m not sure I’ll have biological children anyway.
>>> Firstly, while I do have a high IQ, and come from a family with high IQ, I
>>> had very difficult emotional disconnection growing up.
>>>
>>> Until 16 I thought there were only 3/4 emotions and all the rest were
>>> figures of speech. I could not read facial expressions almost at all until
>>> I taught myself using some online resources meant to teach
>>> micro-expressions and lie detection. I am quite bad with faces, to be point
>>> I have on occasion not recognized my own parents (for example after they
>>> get a haircut, etc). The real Turing point for me was reading a book on NLD
>>> (Non-verbal Learning Disorder) written by a mother and her son who had the
>>> condition. I have never identified with anyone in my life more than the boy
>>> in that book. We experienced so many of the same struggles and many of the
>>> stories she told about him could have just been straight out of my own
>>> life.
>>>
>>> I believe it is this book:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Bridging-Gap-Nonverbal-Learning-Disorder-ebook/dp/B001NMQZH6
>>>
>>> In each of the chapters, she coaches parents through a different type of
>>> situation they might face, and how to explain it to their child in a way
>>> that will make sense. Reading those explanations was just... so profound
>>> and explained so much. I literally cannot explain how much this book really
>>> changed my life (as lame as that may sound).
>>>
>>> Additionally, for about 12 years I suffered with mental health issues,
>>> which have just recently let up. I have spent enough time in psych hospital
>>> to know exactly what you mean when it comes to budgeting issues. These
>>> issues are quite sever and run in the family. For example, my mother
>>> suffered from catatonic depression for about a year after losing one of her
>>> jobs.
>>>
>>> But probably, the bigger reason I probably won’t have kids is because
>>> I’m terribly introverted (quite content to never leave the house) and
>>> frankly, I scare most of the guys I date. Not that I have anything against
>>> eternal bachelorhood. It has it’s perks.
>>>
>>> But I do wonder, somewhat, why there isn’t a more effective voting bloc
>>> for Downs or MR in general. I understand why mental health doesn’t, as the
>>> stigma is still quite intense in some regions, cultures, or religious
>>> groups in the US. But it seems to be making a bit of progress. Out where my
>>> mother lives, she used to do volunteer education services teaching people
>>> that mental health issues were not caused by either Sin or Demons. It’s
>>> still a very real belief in some parts of the US, unfortunately.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 6:29 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> And it's a shame that so few states provide a level of quality
>>> education, with special student Master's level education for the teachers.
>>> No surprise that life expectancy is better than the 70s.  But many were
>>> better off in an institution.  Most people can't realize just how much time
>>> and expertise it takes to raise a mentally retarded person, much less the
>>> costs, and much less having to keep them at home for their lifespan.    Few
>>> could be left home alone. Parent can get really frustrated with having a
>>> child, in effect, living in their home all their lives.  Parents who do
>>> this are saints, devoting most of their time to this.
>>>
>>> When presented with these facts, many parents choose to abort after the
>>> amniocentesis shows Down's.  Extremely controversial issue, of course.
>>>
>>> Privacy laws went into effect long ago.  In my time you could stroll
>>> through a hospital for the MR and peruse the hydrocephalics and all.  In
>>> fact, I think the average person would be stunned.  George Wallace's wife,
>>> then governor, went to Partlow (in Tuscaloosa) and came out crying on TV
>>> and vowed to go to Montgomery and put through bills for a lot more money
>>> for the MR and mentally ill, but with George Wallace pulling the strings,
>>> it never happened. I'll bet most people would come out like Lurleen Wallace
>>> did and have great compassion for the people who had to live and work in
>>> those environments.  But whoever ran a political campaign mentioning money
>>> for these people and the staffs?   Expert help is needed, but rarely
>>> provided.  When I worked in the Mississippi state mental hospital (for $200
>>> a month plus room and board, cooked by the inmates) you could get a job
>>> there with a 2nd grade education.  Seriously.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind that the MR make up more than 3% of the overall population,
>>> and mental patients add much more to that, and you can see the level of
>>> money needed to provide adequate care.  Given how many people are affected
>>> by having these people in their families, one would think that there would
>>> be effective lobbies.
>>>
>>>  bill w
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:01 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2018, at 5:08 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea.  But I can tell you this:  I taught MR for several
>>>> years in the 70s, and 25 was what was listed in the texts.  I have strong
>>>> doubts that those afflicted are any better now than they were then.  It has
>>>> really stuck in my mind, because, for one thing, that was the average,
>>>> meaning about half were lower.  Trisomy really screws up your body.  Most -
>>>> percentage unknown - die fairly young.  For one hint, averages are NEVER
>>>> reported as ranges, only as single points, so whoever did that is a
>>>> statistical moron.  Do you have a particular interest in this?
>>>>
>>>> bill w
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, perhaps things have actually changed somewhat, due to
>>>> de-institutionalization. As a side effect of being raised in a supportive
>>>> family environment, the life expectancy of those with Downs seems to have
>>>> increased somewhat dramatically. And, due to changes in educational law
>>>> (mandating public school accommodation) it seems that more are receiving
>>>> education to a higher level than before— what the standard grade equivalent
>>>> is, I’m not so sure.
>>>>
>>>> And no, I had no particular interest in it before this conversation,
>>>> but considering how common it is, I was surprised that it isn’t better ...
>>>> that there isn’t more straightforward information to the answers to my
>>>> questions readily available online? Which, of course, piques my interest. I
>>>> love learning things which have absolutely no practical application in my
>>>> life. It’s a hobby that makes me quite good at trivia, but quite a bore at
>>>> parties.
>>>>
>>>> I’m quite aware that averages are reported as a single number, just as
>>>> you should be aware that most texts intended for a lay audience will
>>>> instead list them as a range if they are not a pretty number, as decimals
>>>> and “odd” numbers bother people. The only exception I can think of is body
>>>> temperature in Fahrenheit.
>>>>
>>>> SR Ballard
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