From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 00:36:26 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 20:36:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi question alive and well
In-Reply-To: <017f01d4e7e2$4dacc360$e9064a20$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5B5GoCS0ixb6YPbvfuTUcwub8TQQfBQz1SrmoJp3ZGkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2ezNEapnZJmKWWKC55SQtGhykUgeC+-TRptMJ2GaYmjTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 1:03 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> In light of more recent developments, I encourage periodic re-evaluation
> of all tradition and protocol, in all areas of our lives, including
> religion, politics, internet, everything.
>

Speaking of the Internet...how many of today's under 40's techies know why
it's called that? How many can give even the crudest explanation of an IMP?

Hint: it's not a portmanteau of "international" and "network".

-Dave

>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  1 02:12:59 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:12:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi question alive and well
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2ezNEapnZJmKWWKC55SQtGhykUgeC+-TRptMJ2GaYmjTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5B5GoCS0ixb6YPbvfuTUcwub8TQQfBQz1SrmoJp3ZGkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2on0YGk9g_HVJZ50CACxdWYhsgewgnp7XXv-veZ28U=Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaXU=tcXML7wK0pJ0_nPFvjydgzSmky84Qzw=s=Tmxr_Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <001a01d4e830$6e578250$4b0686f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dave Sill
Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2019 5:36 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] fermi question alive and well

 

On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 1:03 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

In light of more recent developments, I encourage periodic re-evaluation of all tradition and protocol, in all areas of our lives, including religion, politics, internet, everything.

 

Speaking of the Internet...how many of today's under 40's techies know why it's called that? How many can give even the crudest explanation of an IMP?

 

Hint: it's not a portmanteau of "international" and "network".

 

-Dave

 

 

 

Hi Dave, cool thanks.  I don?t know what is an IMP, and am well over 40.

 

In any case another though occurred to me, so I don?t have to worry about the dreaded double post, what a relief, even if I no longer remember why it was ever dreaded: traditions stick for whatever reason, for long after everyone who remembers why they started has perished.  We see this in church liturgy: only a few hardcore experts in that one narrow field know why church services go off the way they do and how it started, and why plenty of it probably doesn?t really apply anymore but people still do it because people still do it because people still do it that way and so on.  In that world tradition is tolerated because it is so tolerated.  If everyone forgets to move on, well no problem.

 

In the internet world, things change very quickly.  But there are a  few relics that just stay on, in a way a bit analogous to tradition in the church world.  People forget to change.

 

spike

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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 02:41:58 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:41:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] fermi question alive and well
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB65380xxQrxnSSbQmn0w+wHRsT4V94LCZjOMwAvQHT1QA@mail.gmail.com>

I posted this last June.

https://www.rt.com/news/430736-aliens-search-fermi-paradox/

Anders Sandberg and Eric Drexler make a strong case that what we see
is what we should expect.

Keith

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 12:28:40 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 08:28:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Supermassive Black Holes
Message-ID: <CAJPayv13RaeQhZb79XqN8=4yFFX7Av-FZMSchZb7HHTXcGav5w@mail.gmail.com>

The Event Horizon Telescope is a array of radio telescopes on 4 continents
that forms a virtual telescope with the resolution one telescope as large
as the entire Earth. It was put together for the sole purpose of getting a
picture of the supermassive Black Hole at the center of our galaxy, they've
been working on this since 2006. On April 10 2019 at 9am EST they will have
a press conference and announce what they found. All they will say now is
that the results will be "groundbreaking". The event will be live streamed
here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=Dr20f19czeE

John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 13:12:54 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 09:12:54 -0400
Subject: [ExI] fermi question alive and well
In-Reply-To: <001a01d4e830$6e578250$4b0686f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5B5GoCS0ixb6YPbvfuTUcwub8TQQfBQz1SrmoJp3ZGkQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cD9CA+N9cquOsHsJcao7LkKrFTzPS5PBLLuuwFq4EHJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 10:18 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>  Hi Dave, cool thanks.  I don?t know what is an IMP, and am well over 40.
>

>From  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Message_Processor

"The Interface Message Processor (IMP) was the packet switching node used
to interconnect participant networks to the ARPANET from the late 1960s to
1989. It was the first generation of gateways, which are known today as
routers.[1][2][3] An IMP was a ruggedized Honeywell DDP-516 minicomputer
with special-purpose interfaces and software.[4] In later years the IMPs
were made from the non-ruggedized Honeywell 316 which could handle
two-thirds of the communication traffic at approximately one-half the
cost.[5] An IMP requires the connection to a host computer via a special
bit-serial interface, defined in BBN Report 1822. The IMP software and the
ARPA network communications protocol running on the IMPs was discussed in
RFC 1, the first of a series of standardization documents published by the
Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF)."

In the early days of networking, networks were proprietary: Sperry systems
talked to other Sperry systems and IBM systems talked to other IBM systems.
IMPs enabled networking different physical networks together:
internetworking. It was internetworking that caused physical networking to
explode because it made it vastly more useful. It's great that you can move
files from server A to server B at your workplace without physically
transferring a disk or tape but it's absolutely game-changing that you can
send files around the world quickly and inexpensively.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Apr  1 17:12:23 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 13:12:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCLQXMgb2YgdG9kYXkg4oCLTElHTyBhbmQgVmlyZ2/igIsg?=
	=?utf-8?q?are_back_online=E2=80=8B?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv18zQn+JSgWp94kYu1C6iPuemW38RRn0FxsX5gip=bK2Q@mail.gmail.com>

LIGO and Virgo gravitational wave detectors are back online
<https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ligo-and-virgo-gravitational-wave-detectors-are-back>

John K Clark
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 15:23:37 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:23:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April
Message-ID: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>

National Robotics Week, April 6-14 2019

<https://www.nationalroboticsweek.org/>

Obviously - quite a lot of events near San Francisco.  :)
<https://www.nationalroboticsweek.org/Events>

BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 15:50:56 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:50:56 -0700
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005101d4e96b$dcc27150$964753f0$@rainier66.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 8:24 AM
To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April

National Robotics Week, April 6-14 2019

<https://www.nationalroboticsweek.org/>

Obviously - quite a lot of events near San Francisco.  :)
<https://www.nationalroboticsweek.org/Events>

BillK
_______________________________________________




One of our scouts competed in the big regional robotics contests at San Jose
State U last weekend.  Oh man that show is a hoot: they get these
student-built robots to load boxes, drop basketballs in bins, do all this
crazy stuff, hoist themselves off the floor after they finish the task for
extra points.  This is waaaay more fun to watch than a football game.  I
look forward to it every year.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 16:03:32 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:03:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April
In-Reply-To: <005101d4e96b$dcc27150$964753f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005101d4e96b$dcc27150$964753f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <005301d4e96d$9f7d8ee0$de78aca0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
>...>
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April

National Robotics Week, April 6-14 2019

<https://www.nationalroboticsweek.org/>

BillK
_______________________________________________




>...One of our scouts competed in the big regional robotics contests at San
Jose State U last weekend.  Oh man that show is a hoot: they get these
student-built robots to... I look forward to it every year.  spike




This competition is always great fun, but I can see ways to make it better.
For instance... These robots are remote control, for perfectly
understandable reasons: students are on a limited budget and limited
schedule.  But we could imagine leagues in this sport beyond college, where
you have the more hardcore hobbyist, with bigger budgets, years to invest,
contacts to get corporate sponsorships and all that, and make them fully
autonomous.  We know companies are developing stuff like that, but wouldn't
it be cool to have amateur clubs competing against each other and maybe
scare the big dogs?  Or inspire the big dogs?

spike


From hibbard at wisc.edu  Tue Apr  2 19:50:10 2019
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:50:10 +0000
Subject: [ExI] NY Times: brain enhancement and life extension
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/health/klotho-brain-enhancement-dementia-alzheimers.html


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 20:29:01 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:29:01 -0700
Subject: [ExI] NY Times: brain enhancement and life extension
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <001a01d4e992$b58498d0$208dca70$@rainier66.com>






-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Bill Hibbard
Subject: [ExI] NY Times: brain enhancement and life extension

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/health/klotho-brain-enhancement-dementia-
alzheimers.html

_______________________________________________



Thanks Bill.  

I am amused by ethicists who struggle with these kinds of questions.
Reasoning: if a cure for Alzheimers is discovered, of course that is ethical
to use, and unethical to refuse it, or fail to use it if available.

Now we make the very reasonable extrapolation and ask what if it enhances
everyone's brain?

The ethicists fret and stew over whether it is ethical for people who are
already smart and rich to use it.  I tell them, don't worry for a minute:
you can't stop them.  No society has been able to stop drug abuse for
recreational purposes. We couldn't do anything analogous to blood tests top
athletes must take: you can't make students do those.  So don't worry, there
is no stopping it: everyone who access to any brain enhancement medication
will use it.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 20:45:15 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:45:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] natasha is civilized
Message-ID: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>


I felt so important yesterday.  My bride was playing a new version of
Civilization.  She was doing so well she achieved nanotechnology.  A quote
came up, she said HEY, check this:

"If technology is the engine of change, then nanotechnology is the fuel for
humanity's future."

- Natasha Vita-More

There was our own Natasha, at the pinnacle of Civilization.  

Natasha if you are reading, thanks for this.  It made my day.

spike


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 21:47:35 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 22:47:35 +0100
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April
In-Reply-To: <005301d4e96d$9f7d8ee0$de78aca0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005101d4e96b$dcc27150$964753f0$@rainier66.com>
 <005301d4e96d$9f7d8ee0$de78aca0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhoBOw4ESsk66y+Qb5hkU4qYFt79Wemr2jJQ9ZdV5ZjTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 17:19, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
> This competition is always great fun, but I can see ways to make it better.
> For instance... These robots are remote control, for perfectly
> understandable reasons: students are on a limited budget and limited
> schedule.  But we could imagine leagues in this sport beyond college, where
> you have the more hardcore hobbyist, with bigger budgets, years to invest,
> contacts to get corporate sponsorships and all that, and make them fully
> autonomous.  We know companies are developing stuff like that, but wouldn't
> it be cool to have amateur clubs competing against each other and maybe
> scare the big dogs?  Or inspire the big dogs?
>

Latest Boston Dynamics warehouse pallet stacking robot - Nice mover!  :)

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns>

Quote:
Boston Dynamics    Published on Mar 28, 2019

Handle is a mobile manipulation robot designed for logistics. Handle
autonomously performs mixed SKU pallet building and depalletizing
after initialization and localizing against the pallets. The on-board
vision system on Handle tracks the marked pallets for navigation and
finds individual boxes for grasping and placing. When Handle places a
boxes onto a pallet, it uses force control to nestle each box up
against its neighbors. The boxes used in the video weigh about 5 Kg
(11 lbs), but the robot is designed to handle boxes up to (15 Kg) (33
lb). This version of Handle works with pallets that are 1.2 m deep and
1.7 m tall (48 inches deep and 68 inches tall).
-------------------

BillK

From mlatorra at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 23:10:12 2019
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:10:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] natasha is civilized
In-Reply-To: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>
References: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPGs0J8DbcQpypZ_7GybFP3WXgaPj-iVuT+L1KZJU3Jqhf=CZg@mail.gmail.com>

That's terrific! Natasha Vita-More is one of the great stalwarts of the
movement for more and better life.

I hope that she writes a memoir someday. Although I had spoken with her
many times at various conferences, I had no idea of her early life pre-ExI
and pre-Upwingers until a few years ago. She has a very interesting
biography.

Mike LaTorra

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 4:51 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
> I felt so important yesterday.  My bride was playing a new version of
> Civilization.  She was doing so well she achieved nanotechnology.  A quote
> came up, she said HEY, check this:
>
> "If technology is the engine of change, then nanotechnology is the fuel for
> humanity's future."
>
> - Natasha Vita-More
>
> There was our own Natasha, at the pinnacle of Civilization.
>
> Natasha if you are reading, thanks for this.  It made my day.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 23:11:43 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:11:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhoBOw4ESsk66y+Qb5hkU4qYFt79Wemr2jJQ9ZdV5ZjTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armjQZdHqZeMdfb6iGF09-v5KCuV5tSzORjGUK8AOp1=xJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <005101d4e96b$dcc27150$964753f0$@rainier66.com>
 <005301d4e96d$9f7d8ee0$de78aca0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armhoBOw4ESsk66y+Qb5hkU4qYFt79Wemr2jJQ9ZdV5ZjTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001d4e9a9$721dd6d0$56598470$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 2:48 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] USA Robotics Week 6-14 April

On Tue, 2 Apr 2019 at 17:19, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
> This competition is always great fun, but I can see ways to make it
better.
....
>

Latest Boston Dynamics warehouse pallet stacking robot - Nice mover!  :)

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iV_hB08Uns>

Quote:
Boston Dynamics    Published on Mar 28, 2019

Handle is a mobile manipulation robot designed for logistics. Handle
autonomously performs mixed SKU pallet building and depalletizing after
initialization ...
-------------------

BillK
_______________________________________________



Cool thanks BillK!

It is difficult for me to watch this video without immediately envisioning
the obvious: racing these two guys against each other.

I don't mean racing them around a track...  heeeeeyyyy, that's an idea!

Well, OK that too, but we could have races to see who could build the
highest stack of boxes in the least time, that kinda stuff.

But about the other, we could race a coupla these sonsa bitches around a
roller derby track, or several of them for that matter, and make it fair
game to bump the others or to hurl the other bastard off the track and stuff
like that.  I would buy a ticket to see it.

spike


From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr  2 23:13:40 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:13:40 -0700
Subject: [ExI] natasha is civilized
In-Reply-To: <CAPGs0J8DbcQpypZ_7GybFP3WXgaPj-iVuT+L1KZJU3Jqhf=CZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J8DbcQpypZ_7GybFP3WXgaPj-iVuT+L1KZJU3Jqhf=CZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001201d4e9a9$b5de5a20$219b0e60$@rainier66.com>

 

From: Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 4:10 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: Re: [ExI] natasha is civilized

 

That's terrific! Natasha Vita-More is one of the great stalwarts of the movement for more and better life. 

 

I hope that she writes a memoir someday. Although I had spoken with her many times at various conferences, I had no idea of her early life pre-ExI and pre-Upwingers until a few years ago. She has a very interesting biography.

 

Mike LaTorra

 

 

 

Michael don?t give up on that.  I know a little of Natasha?s pre-us life, and ja it is way cool.  I might contact her again with my offer: all she hasta do is record it, I will type it, give her the finished product.

 

spike

 

 

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From mlatorra at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 23:18:07 2019
From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra)
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:18:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] natasha is civilized
In-Reply-To: <001201d4e9a9$b5de5a20$219b0e60$@rainier66.com>
References: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J8DbcQpypZ_7GybFP3WXgaPj-iVuT+L1KZJU3Jqhf=CZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001201d4e9a9$b5de5a20$219b0e60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAPGs0J9GU4794yKe=znP-8x0081CxC4Gpp5dWPvhwCbpeLKJGA@mail.gmail.com>

Spike,
I hope she takes you up on it. Sometimes a little good-natured nagging can
produce salutary results. So do contact her again!

Mike

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 7:13 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 2, 2019 4:10 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] natasha is civilized
>
>
>
> That's terrific! Natasha Vita-More is one of the great stalwarts of the
> movement for more and better life.
>
>
>
> I hope that she writes a memoir someday. Although I had spoken with her
> many times at various conferences, I had no idea of her early life pre-ExI
> and pre-Upwingers until a few years ago. She has a very interesting
> biography.
>
>
>
> Mike LaTorra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Michael don?t give up on that.  I know a little of Natasha?s pre-us life,
> and ja it is way cool.  I might contact her again with my offer: all she
> hasta do is record it, I will type it, give her the finished product.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr  2 23:47:52 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 00:47:52 +0100
Subject: [ExI] natasha is civilized
In-Reply-To: <001201d4e9a9$b5de5a20$219b0e60$@rainier66.com>
References: <004301d4e994$fa69b410$ef3d1c30$@rainier66.com>
 <CAPGs0J8DbcQpypZ_7GybFP3WXgaPj-iVuT+L1KZJU3Jqhf=CZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <001201d4e9a9$b5de5a20$219b0e60$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhzh7-_QmesnLrSMWPodUdWusPgaJCDa1_FvGoNJpRhrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 00:41, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> From: Michael LaTorra <mlatorra at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 2, 2019 4:10 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: spike at rainier66.com
> Subject: Re: [ExI] natasha is civilized
>
>
> That's terrific! Natasha Vita-More is one of the great stalwarts of the movement for more and better life.
>
> I hope that she writes a memoir someday. Although I had spoken with her many times at various conferences, I had no idea of her early life pre-ExI and pre-Upwingers until a few years ago. She has a very interesting biography.
>
> Mike LaTorra
>
>
> Michael don?t give up on that.  I know a little of Natasha?s pre-us life, and ja it is way cool.  I might contact her again with my offer: all she hasta do is record it, I will type it, give her the finished product.
>
> spike
>

???  Type????  I thought speech to text software was working OK nowadays.

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 00:47:43 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 19:47:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>

What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?  They will have far
more tests and sophisticated tests than now, and so I want to have that
information available to my offspring.

Group?

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 01:10:38 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 18:10:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: [ExI] dna

 

What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?  They will have far more tests and sophisticated tests than now, and so I want to have that information available to my offspring.

 

Group?

 

bill w

 

 

 

It?s really easy if you are male.

 

Hey this sounds like a great idea for Alcor.  You would need to collect the sample yourself of course, then they could preserve it in an easily retrievable form way into the future.  All the infrastructure is already in place.

 

Thinking deeper: it is easy for females too.  Not as enjoyable perhaps.

 

Having your DNA available for your descendants, that?s a grand notion, and noble as hell.  

 

Hmmm, let me try conjugating that with a different simile.  That grand notion is as noble as the Crawley family was before Britain began to ask:  Hey why the heck do these few families own everything in sight?

 

BillW, well done, me lad.  You just handed Alcor a way to make a buttload.

 

spike

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 01:49:47 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 18:49:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <8B82F8EF-1AAE-4FA9-9EF9-FF572D9F85A3@gmail.com>

Kidding aside, won?t that give you only fragments with a bit of randomness thrown in?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Apr 4, 2019, at 6:10 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> 
>  
>  
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
> Subject: [ExI] dna
>  
> What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?  They will have far more tests and sophisticated tests than now, and so I want to have that information available to my offspring.
>  
> Group?
>  
> bill w
>  
>  
>  
> It?s really easy if you are male.
>  
> Hey this sounds like a great idea for Alcor.  You would need to collect the sample yourself of course, then they could preserve it in an easily retrievable form way into the future.  All the infrastructure is already in place.
>  
> Thinking deeper: it is easy for females too.  Not as enjoyable perhaps.
>  
> Having your DNA available for your descendants, that?s a grand notion, and noble as hell. 
>  
> Hmmm, let me try conjugating that with a different simile.  That grand notion is as noble as the Crawley family was before Britain began to ask:  Hey why the heck do these few families own everything in sight?
>  
> BillW, well done, me lad.  You just handed Alcor a way to make a buttload.
>  
> spike
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 02:15:19 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 19:15:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <8B82F8EF-1AAE-4FA9-9EF9-FF572D9F85A3@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <8B82F8EF-1AAE-4FA9-9EF9-FF572D9F85A3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005701d4eb55$6b310830$41931890$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

Kidding aside, won?t that give you only fragments with a bit of randomness thrown in?

Regards,





Dan

 

 

 

 

 

No, you can get the whole DNA sequence end to end with just that.

 

I might be misunderstanding your question.  

 

Further thought: if stored that way, one could theoretically sire offspring hundreds of years into the future.  Why anyone would want to is beyond me, but hey, we see how social mores and values drift.  Right now our society seems to be losing our collective sense of humor, but that might turn around.  In the future they might decide to breed for whatever it is I have a lot of, which could be determined by combing thru the archives.

 

spike

 

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 10:20:29 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:20:29 +0100
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhX-ZgXrKtvagBErkP_t3gvAMi0KUEPFL8=kBZrg90_BQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 01:54, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?  They will have far more tests and sophisticated tests than now, and so I want to have that information available to my offspring.
>


The term you need to search is DNA Banking.
This is a service already available. e.g. Used for preserving DNA from
species going extinct.
Some funeral homes offer this service. The quality of storage can vary
depending on how long you want the sample to last.
This company provides much information.
<https://www.dnalegacy.com/>

Bear in mind that if the DNA sample might be needed in court
proceedings then there will be legal requirements to prove that the
DNA sample is actually yours and has not been contaminated or
interfered with.

BillK

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 12:15:28 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 08:15:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:16 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>> >>What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?
>
>

> It?s really easy if you are male. Hey this sounds like a great idea for
> Alcor.
>

Each sperm would only contain half your genome, and another sperm picked
at random is astronomically unlikely to contain the other half that's
needed. A better way to preserve your DNA would be to just put your
toothbrush in a plastic bag. A even better way would be to have Alcor
freeze your entire brain with liquid nitrogen as that will preserve a lot
more than just DNA.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 12:50:25 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 07:50:25 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYd-tEaAkac5WnwHPZdF96A1STFaoYxEh_apYwBp+KnAA@mail.gmail.com>

I will check out the service of DNA banking.  But it can't be sperm.  Why
not?  Vasectomy long ago.
Had my three kids and hung it up, Dad-wise.

bill w

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 7:20 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:16 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> >>What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?
>>
>>
>
> > It?s really easy if you are male. Hey this sounds like a great idea for
>> Alcor.
>>
>
> Each sperm would only contain half your genome, and another sperm picked
> at random is astronomically unlikely to contain the other half that's
> needed. A better way to preserve your DNA would be to just put your
> toothbrush in a plastic bag. A even better way would be to have Alcor
> freeze your entire brain with liquid nitrogen as that will preserve a lot
> more than just DNA.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 16:23:52 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 09:23:52 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 9:16 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>>What's the best way to save your DNA for your children?

 

>> It?s really easy if you are male. Hey this sounds like a great idea for Alcor. 

 

>?Each sperm would only contain half your genome, and another sperm picked at random is astronomically unlikely to contain the other half that's needed. A better way to preserve your DNA would be to just put your toothbrush in a plastic bag. A even better way would be to have Alcor freeze your entire brain with liquid nitrogen as that will preserve a lot more than just DNA.  John K Clark

 

 

 

 

Eh, there is that.  But no worries, we can deal.  Just collect the drool while the first sample is being produced, then preserve both.  We could invent and market a device, a kind of facemask-like thing, designed specifically for collecting the latter (and another device for the former for that matter) and make money while we are at it.

 

This whole thing has me thinking: I can see some really good justifications for preserving both the complete DNA and all that jizz.  Reasoning: suppose someone lives to be 114 with no easily-identifiable secret to a long healthy life.  Then suppose you find out from the internet archives that he was a hell of a good guy, smart, witty, imaginative and so on (hey now I all need to do is live to be 114 (oh wait, add modest to the list of virtues (I am the local champion of modesty.)))  That guy would be highly regarded in the fertility clinic.

 

Well hell, why not?  I can see this happening.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 16:48:21 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 09:48:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?This whole thing has me thinking: I can see some really good justifications for preserving both the complete DNA and all that jizz.  Reasoning: suppose someone lives to be 114 with no easily-identifiable secret to a long healthy life?That guy would be highly regarded in the fertility clinic?spike

 

 

Further thinking please (we modesty-champions are known for further thoughts?):

 

If we go with the notion of having Alcor preserve the old kickapoo joy juice, then we might want to collect and preserve the sample earlier in life (reduced risk of heart attack or stroke for instance (and we know everything is still fully functional.))

 

If so, all that DNA contains a few carbon 14 atoms, about a part per trillion.  Our carbon comes from our food and drink, ja?  I don?t know the exact mechanism, but I would think the little swimmers are constantly being renewed and regenerated on a short cycle, so here?s an idea: devour special food and drink with the C14 removed for a month or two before one anticipates preserving one?s seed.  Since the stuff might need to be preserved for a long time, a half a century or more, then you don?t want that stuff decaying and breaking up that good healthy DNA, ja?

 

Of course, during the C14 purge period, one needs to be sure to get rid of the older C14-rich swimmers, offering a perfectly legitimate excuse (REASON rather, not excuse, reason) for one?s behavior.

 

I have an idea how we could create C14-free food, for C14 is a lot easier to separate using centrifuges than is U235 (Reasoning: 14/12 > 238/235 by a lot.)  So we create a sealable greenhouse made entirely of glass only and sealed with silicon bathtub caulk.  Grow C14-free veggies in there by first flushing the volume with lab-grade nitrogen, then re-introducing some lab-grade oxygen and a bit of water vapor, then send in your specially-made C14 free CO2 so your veggies can breathe.  A few months later: carbon-14 free veggies, which the rich guy buys from? well? me, at a scandalous profit of course, but he doesn?t care because he?s rich and? ehhh? distracted by the? procedure of preparing to preserve his non-radioactive progeny.

 

Anyone want to join me?  We can even come up with one of those cutesy business names so popular these days, such as: The Jizz Bizz?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From msd001 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 17:08:50 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:08:50 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJ5nFrh6kvJjQuUNhH4A_0KZDhF9TYssxYne9KxS-DoMg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 12:53 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> >?This whole thing has me thinking: I can see some really good
> justifications for preserving both the complete DNA and all that
>
Preserving dna should be about converting it to data via sequencing,  then
using the usual method for preserving data in the short term (a few
decades) or more exotic storage for longer.   200 gigabytes worth of data
as bumps at election microscope scale wouldn't even cost much on a gold
foil.  We could laser etch some diamonds and your data could be a highly
collectible jewelry.

You could also send it into deep space as a pulse of radio information,
but retrieving that data might be tricky.

>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 17:18:15 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 12:18:15 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>

A whole buttload of money - again.  How many schemes have you had?  Some
serious?  Maybe this will work out for you - but not for my, jizz type
thing, anyhow.

Is drool better than hair?  Nowadays your gut microbiome seems as important
as genes.  We can't pass that on (though Mama can when she delivers
vaginally.

I'll put up all of my savings, some $3.50 for your company.    I'll take
half the profits for the idea.

Just thinking:  long ago I saw my first four door truck.  It was plain and
belonged to some outfit that must have carried a crew.  I thought:  gee,
I'd like to have one of those, only better looking.

It took the car industry about 30 years to do just that, and there are now
more trucks on the road than cars - or at least in sales - so they will
eventually replace most cars, except for people like me who want a
boat-like ride.  (I have gotten laughs from people when I am towing a load
of mulch behind my TownCar.  "A Lincoln towing?)"  Now why didn't I take
that idea to the car companies?  Never occurred to me.  How do you protect
yourself from others stealing your ideas?  Walk into the car company's
president'office and tell him the future.   He'll say thanks and goodbye
and you'll never make a penny out of it.

bill w

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:53 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
>
>
> >?This whole thing has me thinking: I can see some really good
> justifications for preserving both the complete DNA and all that jizz.
> Reasoning: suppose someone lives to be 114 with no easily-identifiable
> secret to a long healthy life?That guy would be highly regarded in the
> fertility clinic?spike
>
>
>
>
>
> Further thinking please (we modesty-champions are known for further
> thoughts?):
>
>
>
> If we go with the notion of having Alcor preserve the old kickapoo joy
> juice, then we might want to collect and preserve the sample earlier in
> life (reduced risk of heart attack or stroke for instance (and we know
> everything is still fully functional.))
>
>
>
> If so, all that DNA contains a few carbon 14 atoms, about a part per
> trillion.  Our carbon comes from our food and drink, ja?  I don?t know the
> exact mechanism, but I would think the little swimmers are constantly being
> renewed and regenerated on a short cycle, so here?s an idea: devour special
> food and drink with the C14 removed for a month or two before one
> anticipates preserving one?s seed.  Since the stuff might need to be
> preserved for a long time, a half a century or more, then you don?t want
> that stuff decaying and breaking up that good healthy DNA, ja?
>
>
>
> Of course, during the C14 purge period, one needs to be sure to get rid of
> the older C14-rich swimmers, offering a perfectly legitimate excuse (REASON
> rather, not excuse, reason) for one?s behavior.
>
>
>
> I have an idea how we could create C14-free food, for C14 is a lot easier
> to separate using centrifuges than is U235 (Reasoning: 14/12 > 238/235 by a
> lot.)  So we create a sealable greenhouse made entirely of glass only and
> sealed with silicon bathtub caulk.  Grow C14-free veggies in there by first
> flushing the volume with lab-grade nitrogen, then re-introducing some
> lab-grade oxygen and a bit of water vapor, then send in your specially-made
> C14 free CO2 so your veggies can breathe.  A few months later: carbon-14
> free veggies, which the rich guy buys from? well? me, at a scandalous
> profit of course, but he doesn?t care because he?s rich and? ehhh?
> distracted by the? procedure of preparing to preserve his non-radioactive
> progeny.
>
>
>
> Anyone want to join me?  We can even come up with one of those cutesy
> business names so popular these days, such as: The Jizz Bizz?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 17:31:48 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 10:31:48 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJ5nFrh6kvJjQuUNhH4A_0KZDhF9TYssxYne9KxS-DoMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbJ5nFrh6kvJjQuUNhH4A_0KZDhF9TYssxYne9KxS-DoMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00be01d4ebd5$732ff070$598fd150$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 12:53 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

>>?This whole thing has me thinking: I can see some really good justifications for preserving both the complete DNA and all that 

>?Preserving dna should be about converting it to data via sequencing,  then using the usual method for preserving data in the short term (a few decades) or more exotic storage for longer?

 

 

Awww, Mike, you?re no fun!  Just think of all the money I wouldn?t make.   spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 22:36:39 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:36:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tech success
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZCrV-VeTpAvhVN21xcdtJfjdFbwRihY7qb9ouzJ+hjhg@mail.gmail.com>

Worldwide there are more cell phones than toilets.

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  5 22:47:07 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 15:47:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tech success
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZCrV-VeTpAvhVN21xcdtJfjdFbwRihY7qb9ouzJ+hjhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCrV-VeTpAvhVN21xcdtJfjdFbwRihY7qb9ouzJ+hjhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5EA6189A-DCF2-4821-9F10-6A5CE924AB93@gmail.com>

Not a meaningful comparison... How many people ever carried around a toilet?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Apr 5, 2019, at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Worldwide there are more cell phones than toilets.
> 
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr  5 23:11:59 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:11:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] tech success
In-Reply-To: <5EA6189A-DCF2-4821-9F10-6A5CE924AB93@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCrV-VeTpAvhVN21xcdtJfjdFbwRihY7qb9ouzJ+hjhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5EA6189A-DCF2-4821-9F10-6A5CE924AB93@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006701d4ec04$f8edb7e0$eac927a0$@rainier66.com>

 

On Apr 5, 2019, at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Worldwide there are more cell phones than toilets.

 

bill w

_______________________________________________



 

 

 

Makes sense to me.  If I had to give up one or the other, the toilet is down the toilet.  Hmmm, that analogy doesn?t work in that case.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr  6 01:36:02 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:36:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

 

 

 

>?A whole buttload of money - again.  How many schemes have you had?

 

Don?t know.  Lost count.

 

>?Some serious?  Maybe this will work out for you?

 

Ya never know.

 

>?Is drool better than hair?

 

Drool is easier to collect, but keep in mind, hair itself will not work.  It has to have the follicle with it. Owwww?

 

 

>?I'll put up all of my savings, some $3.50 for your company.    I'll take half the profits for the idea.

 

Ideas don?t make profits.  Companies do.

 

>?  Now why didn't I take that idea to the car companies?  Never occurred to me?

 

See above.  Unless someone puts up a lot of money at risk, there is no profit.  Ideas are cheap.

 

>?How do you protect yourself from others stealing your ideas?  Walk into the car company's president'office and tell him the future.   He'll say thanks and goodbye and you'll never make a penny out of it.  bill w

 

Ja of course, but ideas are not valuable.  Having one that people will invest in, that is valuable.  Just ideas, not.  I have an infinite supply of ideas.  I am full of it.  THEM rather, full of them: ideas.  Lots of ideas.  Nothing worth investing in.

 

Here?s another one: that previous notion of creating carbon 14-free food so that donors can supply more durable DNA would result in some refined or enriched carbon 14 extracted from the sample to be made into veggies.

 

OK now, get some of that stuff, the right heat and pressure, create C14-rich soot.  Now, archaeologist discovers fossil estimated to be about 100k yrs old, a wooly mammoth or something.  Creationist sneaks in with the C14-rich soot, gives it a light dusting, sneaks away.  Archaeologists finish digging out fossil, send it in for analysis, comes back 5000 years old, creationist shows those evil old archaeologists the biblical flood was right.

 

Then we get to reveal the gag.

 

Oh what fun that would be.

 

There?s an idea for you BillW: a way to cause the C14 tests to show way younger than the material really is.

 

Ready to invest your $3.50?

 

spike 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 16:13:55 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 11:13:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>

Ideas are not cheap if they are world-changing.  Just gotta influence the
money people.

Spoofing the religious conservatives seems like a great idea to me.  Let me
know your method and I"ll send the $3.50.

bill w

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 8:41 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?A whole buttload of money - again.  How many schemes have you had?
>
>
>
> Don?t know.  Lost count.
>
>
>
> >?Some serious?  Maybe this will work out for you?
>
>
>
> Ya never know.
>
>
>
> >?Is drool better than hair?
>
>
>
> Drool is easier to collect, but keep in mind, hair itself will not work.
> It has to have the follicle with it. Owwww?
>
>
>
>
>
> >?I'll put up all of my savings, some $3.50 for your company.    I'll
> take half the profits for the idea.
>
>
>
> Ideas don?t make profits.  Companies do.
>
>
>
> >?  Now why didn't I take that idea to the car companies?  Never occurred
> to me?
>
>
>
> See above.  Unless someone puts up a lot of money at risk, there is no
> profit.  Ideas are cheap.
>
>
>
> >?How do you protect yourself from others stealing your ideas?  Walk into
> the car company's president'office and tell him the future.   He'll say
> thanks and goodbye and you'll never make a penny out of it.  bill w
>
>
>
> Ja of course, but ideas are not valuable.  Having one that people will
> invest in, that is valuable.  Just ideas, not.  I have an infinite supply
> of ideas.  I am full of it.  THEM rather, full of them: ideas.  Lots of
> ideas.  Nothing worth investing in.
>
>
>
> Here?s another one: that previous notion of creating carbon 14-free food
> so that donors can supply more durable DNA would result in some refined or
> enriched carbon 14 extracted from the sample to be made into veggies.
>
>
>
> OK now, get some of that stuff, the right heat and pressure, create
> C14-rich soot.  Now, archaeologist discovers fossil estimated to be about
> 100k yrs old, a wooly mammoth or something.  Creationist sneaks in with the
> C14-rich soot, gives it a light dusting, sneaks away.  Archaeologists
> finish digging out fossil, send it in for analysis, comes back 5000 years
> old, creationist shows those evil old archaeologists the biblical flood was
> right.
>
>
>
> Then we get to reveal the gag.
>
>
>
> Oh what fun that would be.
>
>
>
> There?s an idea for you BillW: a way to cause the C14 tests to show way
> younger than the material really is.
>
>
>
> Ready to invest your $3.50?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  6 18:03:52 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 13:03:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] tech success
In-Reply-To: <006701d4ec04$f8edb7e0$eac927a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZCrV-VeTpAvhVN21xcdtJfjdFbwRihY7qb9ouzJ+hjhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5EA6189A-DCF2-4821-9F10-6A5CE924AB93@gmail.com>
 <006701d4ec04$f8edb7e0$eac927a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYC2T0SukTmeqo311vuNrB86KkhpBj7k-qDM5DebXEptA@mail.gmail.com>

OK, Spike, take Dan's idea and run with it:  create toilets that can be
carried around.  This is your greatest challenge!

bill w

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 6:16 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Apr 5, 2019, at 3:36 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Worldwide there are more cell phones than toilets.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Makes sense to me.  If I had to give up one or the other, the toilet is
> down the toilet.  Hmmm, that analogy doesn?t work in that case.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 06:21:28 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 23:21:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

 

>?Ideas are not cheap if they are world-changing?.

 

Ja.  All my ideas are cheap.  Therefore they are world-stays-the-saming.

 

Since we are told the world is coming to an end in 12 years because of climate change, we must take follow my ideas on climate change.  Result: climate stays the same.  Problem solved.  BillW, see how easy this is?  Three dollars and fifty cents please.

 

>?Spoofing the religious conservatives seems like a great idea to me.  Let me know your method and I"ll send the $3.50.

 

bill w

 

 

I thought of some better ideas with the whole concept.  It depends on how much it costs to get a sample carbon-14 dated.  If it isn?t expensive, or a university has a machine which they use to train students (so it is done with volunteer/slave labor and doesn?t cost much of anything) then I can imagine some fun stuff we can do.

 

For instance, well sure, mess with the creationists heads (as if their heads haven?t already been messed with too much.)

 

But once we pull that gag, think of the other.  We created 14C-free veggies, well OK we can create 14C-enriched veggies in a similar fashion.  Background abundance of 14C is about one part per trillion.  Imagine we go on a 14C-enriched diet, then measure the abundance of 14C in various tissues in the body over time.  I would be willing to extract a blood sample every month and of course?the other?and we could take a sample of something like skin (depending on how much the test needs (is 10 mg enough?)) and a sample of bone (filings from a tooth?) then see how the 14C levels change over time.  Assuming I don?t get too carried away with collecting samples of? the other? it would be really cool to make graphs showing how often various tissues are perfused with carbon from our diet.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 19:10:48 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 14:10:48 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>

Did not catch your ideas on climate change which make it stay the same.
But otherwise, fine and OK, and do you accept Paypal?  bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 1:42 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Ideas are not cheap if they are world-changing?.
>
>
>
> Ja.  All my ideas are cheap.  Therefore they are world-stays-the-saming.
>
>
>
> Since we are told the world is coming to an end in 12 years because of
> climate change, we must take follow my ideas on climate change.  Result:
> climate stays the same.  Problem solved.  BillW, see how easy this is?
> Three dollars and fifty cents please.
>
>
>
> >?Spoofing the religious conservatives seems like a great idea to me.
> Let me know your method and I"ll send the $3.50.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> I thought of some better ideas with the whole concept.  It depends on how
> much it costs to get a sample carbon-14 dated.  If it isn?t expensive, or a
> university has a machine which they use to train students (so it is done
> with volunteer/slave labor and doesn?t cost much of anything) then I can
> imagine some fun stuff we can do.
>
>
>
> For instance, well sure, mess with the creationists heads (as if their
> heads haven?t already been messed with too much.)
>
>
>
> But once we pull that gag, think of the other.  We created 14C-free
> veggies, well OK we can create 14C-enriched veggies in a similar fashion.
> Background abundance of 14C is about one part per trillion.  Imagine we go
> on a 14C-enriched diet, then measure the abundance of 14C in various
> tissues in the body over time.  I would be willing to extract a blood
> sample every month and of course?the other?and we could take a sample of
> something like skin (depending on how much the test needs (is 10 mg
> enough?)) and a sample of bone (filings from a tooth?) then see how the 14C
> levels change over time.  Assuming I don?t get too carried away with
> collecting samples of? the other? it would be really cool to make graphs
> showing how often various tissues are perfused with carbon from our diet.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 19:43:12 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 12:43:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

 

 

 

 

>?Did not catch your ideas on climate change which make it stay the same?.

 

Word play, me lad!  You commented:  >?Ideas are not cheap if they are world-changing?.

Multiply by negative one:  my ideas are cheap, which equals not not cheap,  Then not not cheap equals not world-changing equals worlds stays-the-saming.

 

If the goal is climate staying the same (which I question (what?s so great about it now?)) then cheap ideas keep climate the same.

 

spike 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 20:09:06 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 15:09:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>

Missed it.  Still waiting for the portable toilet.

My aunt spend WWII in Shanghai.  Shit everywhere.  People just step off the
road, lift the clothing and let go.  Since Shanghai now has over 20 million
people, there is a big job for someone with a shovel.

bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 2:47 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Did not catch your ideas on climate change which make it stay the same?.
>
>
>
> Word play, me lad!  You commented:  >?Ideas are not cheap if they are
> world-changing?.
>
> Multiply by negative one:  my ideas are cheap, which equals not not
> cheap,  Then not not cheap equals not world-changing equals worlds
> stays-the-saming.
>
>
>
> If the goal is climate staying the same (which I question (what?s so great
> about it now?)) then cheap ideas keep climate the same.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 20:44:11 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 13:44:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace



 

 

 

>?My aunt spend WWII in Shanghai.  Shit everywhere.  People just step off the road, lift the clothing and let go?

 

Now you hafta go to San Francisco to do that.

 

>?Since Shanghai now has over 20 million people, there is a big job for someone with a shovel.  

 

bill w  

 

 

Ja, that?s different now.  It isn?t legal in California to clean up that particular hazardous waste without a hazmat team.  Hazardous Materials Regulation 49 CRF sections 110-184 explain shit in excruciating detail, the procedures needed to dispose of it and so forth.  These were all passed before it became the fashion to shit on the sidewalk in San Francisco, so a shovel is insufficient, so now, since shit can reasonably be expected to contain human-effecting pathogens, it is in the dreaded division 6.2 hazardous material.  A shovel won?t do: there is no way to verify the site is safe afterwards.

 

Needless to say, the HazMat people are having a heyday.

 

In order to clean up a pile legally, they need to bring out their crew, don their space suits and do their thing.  Removing one pile legally in California is said to cost $3k.

 

When the story broke about all the stoners using the sidewalk as their public toilet, the San Francisco Chronicle ran a story with one of the city guys assigned the unenviable task of hosing the streets and sidewalks.  He was washing human excreta into the storm drain.  You really really just can?t do that shit, not in California you can?t, and especially not in the holy city of San Francisco, perish the thought.  The cost of removing all that waste legally would break the city financially, and it is illegal to hose it into the storm drain, so? there it sits.

 

I don?t go in there much anymore.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 21:20:40 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 16:20:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>

Arrest stoners on misdemeanor charges and find hazmat suits that fit them.
A sprinkle of slaked lime will kill anything after it's been shoveled up.

Talk about too much regulation..............   bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 3:48 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?My aunt spend WWII in Shanghai.  Shit everywhere.  People just step off
> the road, lift the clothing and let go?
>
>
>
> Now you hafta go to San Francisco to do that.
>
>
>
> >?Since Shanghai now has over 20 million people, there is a big job for
> someone with a shovel.
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, that?s different now.  It isn?t legal in California to clean up that
> particular hazardous waste without a hazmat team.  Hazardous Materials
> Regulation 49 CRF sections 110-184 explain shit in excruciating detail, the
> procedures needed to dispose of it and so forth.  These were all passed
> before it became the fashion to shit on the sidewalk in San Francisco, so a
> shovel is insufficient, so now, since shit can reasonably be expected to
> contain human-effecting pathogens, it is in the dreaded division 6.2
> hazardous material.  A shovel won?t do: there is no way to verify the site
> is safe afterwards.
>
>
>
> Needless to say, the HazMat people are having a heyday.
>
>
>
> In order to clean up a pile legally, they need to bring out their crew,
> don their space suits and do their thing.  Removing one pile legally in
> California is said to cost $3k.
>
>
>
> When the story broke about all the stoners using the sidewalk as their
> public toilet, the San Francisco Chronicle ran a story with one of the city
> guys assigned the unenviable task of hosing the streets and sidewalks.  He
> was washing human excreta into the storm drain.  You really really just
> can?t do that shit, not in California you can?t, and especially not in the
> holy city of San Francisco, perish the thought.  The cost of removing all
> that waste legally would break the city financially, and it is illegal to
> hose it into the storm drain, so? there it sits.
>
>
>
> I don?t go in there much anymore.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 21:42:29 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 14:42:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
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 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

 

 

 

>?Arrest stoners on misdemeanor charges and find hazmat suits that fit them.  A sprinkle of slaked lime will kill anything after it's been shoveled up?

 

BillW if there is a simple solution, is it not astonishing no one has proposed it?  

 

There is little risk that San Francisco will reverse generations of tradition and try to make dope illegal again.  Even if they did, putting convicts to work is illegal unless they volunteer, which stoners are unlikely to do, since they would be having withdrawal symptoms while in the tank.  Even if so, San Francisco has not nearly the prison capacity for the magnitude of their problem.

 

 

>?Talk about too much regulation..............   bill w  

 

Regulation is far easier to pass than it is to revoke.  Recall it was the representative from San Francisco who famously quoted ?We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.?

 

All those hazmat regs were passed, now we are away from the fog of controversy and we find out what is in it.  They can?t remove the stoners, they can?t afford to clean up the mess legally, they can?t wash it down the storm drain.  So there it sits.  Countdown to a cholera epidemic?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 22:10:47 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 17:10:47 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
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 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>

There is no provision for community service?  bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 4:47 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Arrest stoners on misdemeanor charges and find hazmat suits that fit
> them.  A sprinkle of slaked lime will kill anything after it's been
> shoveled up?
>
>
>
> BillW if there is a simple solution, is it not astonishing no one has
> proposed it?
>
>
>
> There is little risk that San Francisco will reverse generations of
> tradition and try to make dope illegal again.  Even if they did, putting
> convicts to work is illegal unless they volunteer, which stoners are
> unlikely to do, since they would be having withdrawal symptoms while in the
> tank.  Even if so, San Francisco has not nearly the prison capacity for the
> magnitude of their problem.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Talk about too much regulation..............   bill w
>
>
>
> Regulation is far easier to pass than it is to revoke.  Recall it was the
> representative from San Francisco who famously quoted ?We have to pass the
> bill so you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of controversy.?
>
>
>
> All those hazmat regs were passed, now we are away from the fog of
> controversy and we find out what is in it.  They can?t remove the stoners,
> they can?t afford to clean up the mess legally, they can?t wash it down the
> storm drain.  So there it sits.  Countdown to a cholera epidemic?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 22:57:24 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 15:57:24 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

There is no provision for community service?  bill w

 

 

Not really.  No real mechanism for making them show up, or do anything for that matter.  Once they get addicted and homeless, the law is pretty helpless under the current system.  We don?t know how San Francisco (and Seattle (and Portland (and Los Angeles)))) are going to deal with this mess.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr  7 23:05:43 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 18:05:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
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 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbsJB7Y5bmYJ_VFriD8uTKapV0Tm44FuYG0Z+D3bOuKLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYYb5U1HABOkhoEVTgZCs0Bb5URoRPSL3Y9mk5GwnpqoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Oh well.  Change the laws.  Or give them free tickets to Omaha.

Finis   bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 6:02 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
> There is no provision for community service?  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> Not really.  No real mechanism for making them show up, or do anything for
> that matter.  Once they get addicted and homeless, the law is pretty
> helpless under the current system.  We don?t know how San Francisco (and
> Seattle (and Portland (and Los Angeles)))) are going to deal with this mess.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr  7 23:50:38 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 16:50:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYYb5U1HABOkhoEVTgZCs0Bb5URoRPSL3Y9mk5GwnpqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
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 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
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 <00b601d4ed82$a85aee90$f910cbb0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com> <CAO+xQEYYb5U1HA
 BOkhoEVTgZCs0Bb5URoRPSL3Y9mk5GwnpqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003b01d4ed9c$b3e30df0$1ba929d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

>?Oh well.  Change the laws?

 

They did change the laws.  That?s how we got to here.

 

>?Or give them free tickets to Omaha.

 

Plenty of us suspect that?s how a lot of them got here to start with: Omaha bought them free tickets to San Francisco.

 

It worries me; just like everything else, dope evolves.  Natural selection over time finds stronger and direct pathways to the dopamine sensors.  With today?s recreational drugs, it seems the body?s dopamine system gets all short circuited and messed up so thoroughly there is often no fixing it.

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 13:18:19 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 08:18:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <003b01d4ed9c$b3e30df0$1ba929d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
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 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEadMLjRfT04ssen0cn1zHSsJU7h6Wm2jsPafA7FhYUQiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYt7TZ0cZXDS3egg938=2ecE6-Xru5qV+BMj8+8dCMAVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYYb5U1HABOkhoEVTgZCs0Bb5URoRPSL3Y9mk5GwnpqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01d4ed9c$b3e30df0$1ba929d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa8MviX7e4cpzsQaoq=Z_f+UXfXQ70BNPdz=-5NpuKE_g@mail.gmail.com>

Are there any data on what drugs they are taking?   Or percentages on
mental illness?  Generally you don't find a lot of pot users as street
people with mental illness.  They are using meth, heroin, cocaine and so on.

Any data on just how many people are involved?

bill w

On Sun, Apr 7, 2019 at 6:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
> >?Oh well.  Change the laws?
>
>
>
> They did change the laws.  That?s how we got to here.
>
>
>
> >?Or give them free tickets to Omaha.
>
>
>
> Plenty of us suspect that?s how a lot of them got here to start with:
> Omaha bought them free tickets to San Francisco.
>
>
>
> It worries me; just like everything else, dope evolves.  Natural selection
> over time finds stronger and direct pathways to the dopamine sensors.  With
> today?s recreational drugs, it seems the body?s dopamine system gets all
> short circuited and messed up so thoroughly there is often no fixing it.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  8 13:38:42 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 06:38:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa8MviX7e4cpzsQaoq=Z_f+UXfXQ70BNPdz=-5NpuKE_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
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 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
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 <007701d4ed7a$23088160$69198420$@rainier66.com>
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 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com> <CAO+xQEYYb5U1HA
 BOkhoEVTgZCs0Bb5URoRPSL3Y9mk5GwnpqoQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <000901d4ee10$61dc6c30$25954490$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

Are there any data on what drugs they are taking?   Or percentages on mental illness?  Generally you don't find a lot of pot users as street people with mental illness.  They are using meth, heroin, cocaine and so on.

 

Any data on just how many people are involved?

 

bill w

 

 

It brings a whole new meaning to the term ?San Francisco High.?

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/article/San-Francisco-where-street-addicts-outnumber-13571702.php

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gT5NULvRSk

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 14:12:49 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 09:12:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <000901d4ee10$61dc6c30$25954490$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d4eb4c$61bcec00$2536c400$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv1_eZh8-YYJQ9+6S+7-dY+EuYY9CU0iL3LOUCR04hWeJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <002f01d4ebcb$f5f99510$e1ecbf30$@rainier66.com>
 <006c01d4ebcf$611cebf0$2356c3d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYyrR6LpyC1zOT+zYPed7ADQvBWkeWo-37ifAbTssUAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYJi2adR0V8sMkKvLRZhucypi7UGuJ4A3nJR=gPikjdGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b201d4ed0a$22ec62c0$68c52840$@rainier66.com>
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 <001b01d4ed8a$ccf205b0$66d61110$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com>
 <003b01d4ed9c$b3e30df0$1ba929d0$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYL9Jx2OPVKb_Px+o5+7Sqo71M3ymRtJqKYVdHANGDe+g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks.  And Heavens to Murgatroyd!  24k and nowhere to put them.  No data
on people gotten off the street by using methadone, etc.

How are these people eating?  Women have something to sell but men don't.
Where is the money coming from?

bill w

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 8:43 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
> Are there any data on what drugs they are taking?   Or percentages on
> mental illness?  Generally you don't find a lot of pot users as street
> people with mental illness.  They are using meth, heroin, cocaine and so on.
>
>
>
> Any data on just how many people are involved?
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
> It brings a whole new meaning to the term ?San Francisco High.?
>
>
>
>
> https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/article/San-Francisco-where-street-addicts-outnumber-13571702.php
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gT5NULvRSk
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  8 14:30:15 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 07:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYL9Jx2OPVKb_Px+o5+7Sqo71M3ymRtJqKYVdHANGDe+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
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 <005601d4ec19$18a48640$49ed92c0$@rainier66.com>
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 <CAO+xQEbXXHJSsoSDUBF-vxtFThVKH4b92_Ax-m2-qDaS-pr4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <000e01d4ed95$4468dce0$cd3a96a0$@rainier66.com> <003b01d4ed9c$b3
 e30df0$1ba929d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa8MviX7e4cpzsQaoq=Z_f+UXfXQ70BNPdz=-5NpuKE_g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAO+xQEYL9Jx2OPVKb_Px+o5+7Sqo71M3ymRtJqKYVdHANGDe+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001d01d4ee17$962df600$c289e200$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

>?Thanks.  And Heavens to Murgatroyd!  24k and nowhere to put them?

 

24k was last week.  This week it is 25k.

 

>?No data on people gotten off the street by using methadone, etc?

 

Methadone costs money.  Heroin is supplied to them somehow.

 

>?How are these people eating?

 

People give them food.  It is easy in SF.  Vendors have box lunches you can buy at reasonable prices and feel good about actually feeding the hungry instead of giving them money that would make them a robbery target (as well as the giver.)

 

>?Women have something to sell but men don't.  Where is the money coming from? bill w

 

BillW, did you overlook the location, San Francisco?

 

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 14:51:14 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 09:51:14 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <001d01d4ee17$962df600$c289e200$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYTtgNLCU-U84wKWz5qWJD2YEZbf1qnDfhvBrYv304Y+w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYSJya9DBjp+_2LQfGQwqRecxpE9t4mfkHVtvxWozzC4w@mail.gmail.com>

I know SF is rich, but street people aren't, eh? Who is supplying money to
feed 24k people? I also assume they are clogging emergency rooms.

bill w

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 9:37 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
> >?Thanks.  And Heavens to Murgatroyd!  24k and nowhere to put them?
>
>
>
> 24k was last week.  This week it is 25k.
>
>
>
> >?No data on people gotten off the street by using methadone, etc?
>
>
>
> Methadone costs money.  Heroin is supplied to them somehow.
>
>
>
> >?How are these people eating?
>
>
>
> People give them food.  It is easy in SF.  Vendors have box lunches you
> can buy at reasonable prices and feel good about actually feeding the
> hungry instead of giving them money that would make them a robbery target
> (as well as the giver.)
>
>
>
> >?Women have something to sell but men don't.  Where is the money coming
> from? bill w
>
>
>
> BillW, did you overlook the location, San Francisco?
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 17:17:39 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 12:17:39 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bad news for T haters
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZDyJfG+L8KmNZMR+g6z3jCj4oq3JhuyQQUaCLYenkrRA@mail.gmail.com>

In a preface to a collection of scifi stories (Hieroglyph), a theoretical
physicist, Lawrence Krauss, says, in an apparent reference to T's head.....

"...empty space contains the dominant energy in the universe, producing a
kind of cosmic antigravity that will determine our ultimate future."

btw - just what the hell does that really mean?

bill w
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 18:48:26 2019
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 12:48:26 -0600
Subject: [ExI] dna
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spike, our straight arrow boy scout white boy from Whitelandia writes:

"...putting convicts to work is illegal unless they volunteer... "

Actually, no.

Re Thirteenth Amendment to the US Constitution,  w/ attention to:

"...except as a punishment for crime ..."

*Section 1.* Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their
jurisdiction.

*Section 2.* Congress shall have power to enforce this article by
appropriate legislation.

*************************************************

That said, a further note:  Like so many problems that society chooses not
to solve despite an obvious, free, and immediately available solution, the
"problem" of homeless persons pooping on the street has just such a
solution:

As everyone knows, the whole frikkin' city is chock full of toilets.  Every
business, govt office, hospital, library, cop shop, bus station, subway
station, and every private residence has several toilets.  I would wager
that every homeless street dweller is no more that 100ft away from a
functioning toilet.  So I have no sympathy w/ those who decry this problem.

"But, but, but,... those facilities are for..."

As with so many issues of modern life, people can choose either to get
their head out of their ass or to live in shit.

By the way, San Francisco is a big city -- I just got back from a visit --
and the notion that there is shit everywhere is the usual media nonsense.
The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of
downtown.
-- 
          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                Ray Charles
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 19:00:45 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 14:00:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEau-zppRXhHdey4bTrTZ__OHDQCmq+U3nOdwpOQfaBJWg@mail.gmail.com>

The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of
downtown.  J Davis

It can't be very small, as Spike says that well over 20K people are
homeless addicts.  And I don't think that there is any problem with a state
or city making laws against prisoner labor.  You just can't have it the
other way. Is there a valid reason not to put up a slew of PortaPotties?
Spike?

bill w



On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 1:53 PM Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Spike, our straight arrow boy scout white boy from Whitelandia writes:
>
> "...putting convicts to work is illegal unless they volunteer... "
>
> Actually, no.
>
> Re Thirteenth Amendment to the US Constitution,  w/ attention to:
>
> "...except as a punishment for crime ..."
>
> *Section 1.* Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
> punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
> shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their
> jurisdiction.
>
> *Section 2.* Congress shall have power to enforce this article by
> appropriate legislation.
>
> *************************************************
>
> That said, a further note:  Like so many problems that society chooses not
> to solve despite an obvious, free, and immediately available solution, the
> "problem" of homeless persons pooping on the street has just such a
> solution:
>
> As everyone knows, the whole frikkin' city is chock full of toilets.
> Every business, govt office, hospital, library, cop shop, bus station,
> subway station, and every private residence has several toilets.  I would
> wager that every homeless street dweller is no more that 100ft away from a
> functioning toilet.  So I have no sympathy w/ those who decry this problem.
>
> "But, but, but,... those facilities are for..."
>
> As with so many issues of modern life, people can choose either to get
> their head out of their ass or to live in shit.
>
> By the way, San Francisco is a big city -- I just got back from a visit --
> and the notion that there is shit everywhere is the usual media nonsense.
> The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of
> downtown.
> --
>           "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
>                                                 Ray Charles
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  8 20:42:14 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 13:42:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006e01d4ee4b$8c8c2660$a5a47320$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Davis
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

 

 

 

>?Spike, our straight arrow boy scout white boy from Whitelandia writes:

 

You flatter me sir.  Up until the Whitelandia, it was accurate.  Where I grew up, black was about a third of the local population.  Where I live now, white is about 4% which scarcely justifies the name.

 

>?"...putting convicts to work is illegal unless they volunteer... " 

 

>?Actually, no.

 

>?Re Thirteenth Amendment to the US Constitution,  w/ attention to: 

 

>?"...except as a punishment for crime ..."

 

 

Ah, but this is California, with its own legal system.  Nobody noticed much until it was contradicting federal law.

 

We see the road cleanup crews, but they can only compel them to participate in exchange for something, such as reduced sentence.  Not all do.

 

 

>?That said, a further note:  Like so many problems that society chooses not to solve despite an obvious, free, and immediately available solution, the "problem" of homeless persons pooping on the street has just such a solution?

 

True, however most big cities have homeless shelters well below capacity, as homeless people live in the streets nearby.

 

As I understand it, plenty of homeless will not use the shelters because they don?t like being around other people.

 

>?As with so many issues of modern life, people can choose either to get their head out of their ass or to live in shit?

 

No need to choose: plenty of people do both simultaneously.

  

>?By the way, San Francisco is a big city -- I just got back from a visit -- and the notion that there is shit everywhere is the usual media nonsense.  The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of downtown?. Ray Charles and Jeff Davis

-- 

 

 

I have heard this: the SF constables do a good job of keeping the homeless away from the waterfront, the airport, the most important business sections where people are likely to go.  The homeless people congregate right down there where it was the happening place to be fifty years ago.  Well, OK then.  I have no objections.  I wouldn?t have fit in there then, don?t fit in there now.

 

I have been reading up a bit on some of the proposed solutions.  Stoners are people.  In many places in the country (and the world) they are treated with disdain and revulsion, but they are people.  San Francisco does an admirable job of dealing with them I suppose.  

 

I am told you can have a perfectly normal conversation with some of the homeless stoners, and it is clear they are suffering people but human just the same.  Heroin doesn?t actually kill the addicts, if they don?t get an overdose.

 

So? big rich city government is kicking around a number of ideas, some of which are plausible.  One of the things that kills heroin addicts is the unpredictability of the dose and the purity of the medication.  It is expensive, so the local ?pharmacist? mixes with inert ingredients, other stuff that mimics heroin, all manner of junk mixed in there (which is perhaps where the nickname started) but if one is in the habit of using a medication which is half or a third or a quarter actual heroin, then someone comes along with highly purified heroin, the result can be fatal.  So? the notion was to get actual pharmaceutical grade heroin, which isn?t all that expensive to make, then let them use that, give it to them.

 

Well now.  The problem is that doing this in any quasi-legal way requires a licensed doctor to dispense the meds, and makes the doctor and the city liable for anything that can go wrong.  No malpractice insurance company wants to go near that deal, and what about the liability the city holds if a junky shoots up and then perishes?  Or kills someone while stoned?  Or? plenty of good reasons why that idea is problematic at best.

 

What if a man tracks his runaway daughter to one of these safe-shooting galleries, is horrified to find her emaciated, addicted, but just then the doctor strolls up with a needle, here ya go? and that doctor is slain by the distraught father?s bare hands before anyone can call for security (which wouldn?t help anyway because there isn?t any security.)

 

And what if one were struggling but mostly recovering from addiction, but went into one of the shooting galleries, SF city government offers a sweet treat, addict is worse than ever two weeks later.

 

And what if? there are public toilets everywhere but someone is living in most of them, so the homeless people are still outta luck?

 

I don?t know the answers.

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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr  8 20:45:17 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 13:45:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEau-zppRXhHdey4bTrTZ__OHDQCmq+U3nOdwpOQfaBJWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEau-zppRXhHdey4bTrTZ__OHDQCmq+U3nOdwpOQfaBJWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01d4ee4b$f9f555f0$ede001d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 12:01 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] dna

 

The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of downtown.  J Davis

 

It can't be very small, as Spike says that well over 20K people are homeless addicts.  And I don't think that there is any problem with a state or city making laws against prisoner labor.  You just can't have it the other way. Is there a valid reason not to put up a slew of PortaPotties?  Spike?

 

bill w

 

 

 

Not at all, a city can do that, and SF already has.  But people tend to move into them and treat them as their own little zero bedroom one bath apartment.  If you go down to that area of town which welcomes the homeless, one can open a public restroom door and find an inert form sitting in there with a needle on the floor next to him or her.  Now what?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr  8 21:15:43 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 16:15:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <008d01d4ee4b$f9f555f0$ede001d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEau-zppRXhHdey4bTrTZ__OHDQCmq+U3nOdwpOQfaBJWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d4ee4b$f9f555f0$ede001d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbvOPAVWFwp7C4j12d3qfyDOMovcYw_ZMHNq6k7VT5XFw@mail.gmail.com>

 If you go down to that area of town which welcomes the homeless, one can
open a public restroom door and find an inert form sitting in there with a
needle on the floor next to him or her.  Now what?



spike


Easy - you evict the homeless!!   bill w

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:58 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Monday, April 8, 2019 12:01 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dna
>
>
>
> The problem is almost entirely restricted to a very small area of
> downtown.  J Davis
>
>
>
> It can't be very small, as Spike says that well over 20K people are
> homeless addicts.  And I don't think that there is any problem with a state
> or city making laws against prisoner labor.  You just can't have it the
> other way. Is there a valid reason not to put up a slew of PortaPotties?
> Spike?
>
>
>
> bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Not at all, a city can do that, and SF already has.  But people tend to
> move into them and treat them as their own little zero bedroom one bath
> apartment.  If you go down to that area of town which welcomes the
> homeless, one can open a public restroom door and find an inert form
> sitting in there with a needle on the floor next to him or her.  Now what?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 00:55:22 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 20:55:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] dna
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbvOPAVWFwp7C4j12d3qfyDOMovcYw_ZMHNq6k7VT5XFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkMPJSjegshg8VoLVYpzqB6mn8P3HyoH5DWHiDq1moN+cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEau-zppRXhHdey4bTrTZ__OHDQCmq+U3nOdwpOQfaBJWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <008d01d4ee4b$f9f555f0$ede001d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEbvOPAVWFwp7C4j12d3qfyDOMovcYw_ZMHNq6k7VT5XFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgsPw_MZDCJ9-vHBUpzwNaaOxBNTAiDqG4Y=6QjqcjNmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 5:20 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Easy - you evict the homeless!!   bill w
>

### Yes, I agree! Streets should be privatized and the private security
contractors employed by the owners should be authorized to expel
undesirables and deter them from entering. Area denial devices, such as
stationary and vehicle mounted low power lasers might be used to heat up
the skin of undesirables to about 47 degrees Celsius which would be very
effective in inducing prompt egress from protected premises. AI will be
soon capable of providing control to these devices without costly human
input.

Paying customers and owner's friends would be unaffected and free to enjoy
their morning constitutionals without exposure to excreta or unwelcome
sights.

Rafal
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr  9 12:31:09 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 08:31:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?LIGO_has_=E2=80=8Balready_found_another_Gravitat?=
	=?utf-8?q?ional_Wave_=E2=80=8B?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1TsMFqMfhDhLGpDHYghZ7c49L0CUk6i3UixzzN0LyRaw@mail.gmail.com>

LIGO has only been back on for a few days but already they have detected a
new gravitational wave from a Black Hole merger slightly under 5 billion
light years away.  They've decided to stop most of the secrecy and report
things as soon as they find them, so they haven't finished calculating how
massive they were yet.

Just after turning back on another wave found
<https://www.newscientist.com/article/2199107-ligo-has-spotted-another-gravitational-wave-just-after-turning-back-on/>

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 13:31:19 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:31:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/science/black-hole-picture.html

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 10 13:49:34 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:49:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/science/black-hole-picture.html

 

John K Clark 

 

 

 

 

 

COOL!

 

I am amazed that it is asymmetric and the thermal spectrum is so non-uniform.

 

Anyone who is into the astronomy scene has become accustomed to being amazed.

 

spike

 

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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 13:49:14 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:49:14 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQny9-x9i_mi2V7PwnYOxZXCi_WfO36JqAK1Wxg4Rna9A@mail.gmail.com>

Shouldn't it be the Sagittarius? Much smaller and much closer one?

Why is that now?

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:38 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/science/black-hole-picture.html
>
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 14:29:46 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:29:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> COOL!
>
> I am amazed that it is asymmetric and the thermal spectrum is so
> non-uniform.
>

It looks asymmetric because the matter in the accretion disk is moving very
close to the speed of light and as it orbits some of it is going toward us
and some is going away so one side looks brighter than the other. The inner
edge of the bright part comes from the photosphere, the last place
where light can stably orbit and has a radius of 1.5 times
the Schwarzschild event horizon, however because gravity is so strong we
are able  to see the back side of the Black Hole too so it works out that
the dark part in the center of the picture is 2.6 times the radius of the
event horizon. To the limits of measurement it looks exactly how Einstein
said it should, it would have been even more exciting if it didn't.

I assume they chose to image M87 instead of the Black Hole in the center of
our own galaxy because it is about 1000 times more massive.

 John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 15:30:37 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 17:30:37 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>

>  because it is about 1000 times more massive.

Yeah, but Sagittarius is 2000 times closer. Per unit of mass therefore
4000000 million times more luminous. 4000 times more luminous in absolute
terms.

Sagittarius should be the most "luminous"  black hole for us, just as the
Sun is the most luminous star for us.

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:34 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> > COOL!
>>
>> I am amazed that it is asymmetric and the thermal spectrum is so
>> non-uniform.
>>
>
> It looks asymmetric because the matter in the accretion disk is moving
> very close to the speed of light and as it orbits some of it is going
> toward us and some is going away so one side looks brighter than the other.
> The inner edge of the bright part comes from the photosphere, the last
> place where light can stably orbit and has a radius of 1.5 times
> the Schwarzschild event horizon, however because gravity is so strong we
> are able  to see the back side of the Black Hole too so it works out that
> the dark part in the center of the picture is 2.6 times the radius of the
> event horizon. To the limits of measurement it looks exactly how Einstein
> said it should, it would have been even more exciting if it didn't.
>
> I assume they chose to image M87 instead of the Black Hole in the center
> of our own galaxy because it is about 1000 times more massive.
>
>  John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 15:56:12 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 17:56:12 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFTRP0YmM-n4evezRoKe-O8W-w=tRy=uTjWRsy=t7hh46w@mail.gmail.com>

>  4000000 million

Should be 4000000. Sorry for the typo.

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 5:30 PM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >  because it is about 1000 times more massive.
>
> Yeah, but Sagittarius is 2000 times closer. Per unit of mass therefore
> 4000000 million times more luminous. 4000 times more luminous in absolute
> terms.
>
> Sagittarius should be the most "luminous"  black hole for us, just as the
> Sun is the most luminous star for us.
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:34 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>> > COOL!
>>>
>>> I am amazed that it is asymmetric and the thermal spectrum is so
>>> non-uniform.
>>>
>>
>> It looks asymmetric because the matter in the accretion disk is moving
>> very close to the speed of light and as it orbits some of it is going
>> toward us and some is going away so one side looks brighter than the other.
>> The inner edge of the bright part comes from the photosphere, the last
>> place where light can stably orbit and has a radius of 1.5 times
>> the Schwarzschild event horizon, however because gravity is so strong we
>> are able  to see the back side of the Black Hole too so it works out
>> that the dark part in the center of the picture is 2.6 times the radius of
>> the event horizon. To the limits of measurement it looks exactly how
>> Einstein said it should, it would have been even more exciting if it didn't.
>>
>> I assume they chose to image M87 instead of the Black Hole in the center
>> of our own galaxy because it is about 1000 times more massive.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> --
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 16:04:07 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:04:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1N=CFO4S=J-X133f3HXa=57SeQ2sVg4aFLdmgZrnAsLQ@mail.gmail.com>

They said they're going to try to get a picture of Sagittarius A Star next
but It's not entirely clear to me why they chose M87 first. I'm just
guessing but I do know that the luminosity of a supermassive Black Hole has
more to do with the amount of gas outside that is falling into it than the
mass of the hole, and the important thing as far as pictures are concerned
is not the luminosity but the resolution. Another factor may be that
because we're in the Galaxy we have to look through it to see the center
and that means looking through lots more obscuring dust than to see the
Black Hole in M87.

John K Clark

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:36 AM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> >  because it is about 1000 times more massive.
>
> Yeah, but Sagittarius is 2000 times closer. Per unit of mass therefore
> 4000000 million times more luminous. 4000 times more luminous in absolute
> terms.
>
> Sagittarius should be the most "luminous"  black hole for us, just as the
> Sun is the most luminous star for us.
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 4:34 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>> > COOL!
>>>
>>> I am amazed that it is asymmetric and the thermal spectrum is so
>>> non-uniform.
>>>
>>
>> It looks asymmetric because the matter in the accretion disk is moving
>> very close to the speed of light and as it orbits some of it is going
>> toward us and some is going away so one side looks brighter than the other.
>> The inner edge of the bright part comes from the photosphere, the last
>> place where light can stably orbit and has a radius of 1.5 times
>> the Schwarzschild event horizon, however because gravity is so strong we
>> are able  to see the back side of the Black Hole too so it works out
>> that the dark part in the center of the picture is 2.6 times the radius of
>> the event horizon. To the limits of measurement it looks exactly how
>> Einstein said it should, it would have been even more exciting if it didn't.
>>
>> I assume they chose to image M87 instead of the Black Hole in the center
>> of our own galaxy because it is about 1000 times more massive.
>>
>>  John K Clark
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
> --
> https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 16:25:46 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:25:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3bDnVJMsOEkt2xYn5EJ9Komp69Z=1znp-0xOJQOAMz6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:36 AM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yeah, but Sagittarius is 2000 times closer.
>

And M87 is about 1600 times larger than Sagittarius (not 1000 as I said
before) so from Earth they should have almost the same angular size, and
there would be less dust to look through with M87. That must have been the
reason they picked it.

 John K Clark




>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 17:13:42 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:13:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3bDnVJMsOEkt2xYn5EJ9Komp69Z=1znp-0xOJQOAMz6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3bDnVJMsOEkt2xYn5EJ9Komp69Z=1znp-0xOJQOAMz6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1LcNRzJ-MB7i8u3tVYCs_0ffzLYTO-c_3ogvY-q+AHMA@mail.gmail.com>

I thought of another reason for picking M87, it's located near the equator
so radio telescopes in both hemispheres can see it but the center of the
Milky Way  can only be seen in the southern hemisphere. The resolution they
achieved is really amazing, it's equivalent to reading the date on a dime
in Los Angeles from New York. Another record they achieved is the fastest
data transfer when they put several tons of state of the art hard drives on
a 747 and flew them across the atlantic.

John K Clark
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 10 23:13:49 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 01:13:49 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1LcNRzJ-MB7i8u3tVYCs_0ffzLYTO-c_3ogvY-q+AHMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0-VeYe+edNYKt-OVrcpd4yYqrA+OJ8MG4QsfM8kdr_FQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000d01d4efa4$3bbc2cd0$b3348670$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2LSqYDFjwGcEYSbhqAmhcCemVkySYeG9jWVDMBjY1n3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFTFmPqd5j8JEfqHTae20LEGr7dy6Wa7BJEpk5peHroCVg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3bDnVJMsOEkt2xYn5EJ9Komp69Z=1znp-0xOJQOAMz6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1LcNRzJ-MB7i8u3tVYCs_0ffzLYTO-c_3ogvY-q+AHMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQKRBynn5-yxpANExWWqSeTARUa1X8um15Ez5yZCuF+mA@mail.gmail.com>

And then they swiftly changed one planeload of hard drives data with
another planeload of hard drives data.

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 7:18 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> I thought of another reason for picking M87, it's located near the
> equator so radio telescopes in both hemispheres can see it but the center
> of the Milky Way  can only be seen in the southern hemisphere. The
> resolution they achieved is really amazing, it's equivalent to reading the
> date on a dime in Los Angeles from New York. Another record they achieved
> is the fastest data transfer when they put several tons of state of the art
> hard drives on a 747 and flew them across the atlantic.
>
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Apr 11 01:26:10 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 18:26:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
Message-ID: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Tomaz Kristan wrote:

>
> Shouldn't it be the Sagittarius? Much smaller and much closer one?
>
> Why is that now?
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:38 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/science/black-hole-picture.html
>>

As John pointed out their angular widths should be about almost equal  
at 5:4 for SgrA* vs M-87*. While there is a lot of dust between us and  
SgrA*, that shouldn't affect meters-wide radiowaves. So my guess is  
that the paper published back in January that suggested that the radio  
jet of Sagittarius A* is pointed directly at us is actually correct.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2019/01/radio-jets-from-the-milky-ways-black-hole-could-be-pointing-right-at-earth

The radio jet pointing directly at us would make the picture of SgrA*  
just look like a bright blotch of light with no dark "shadow" apparent  
so it would not look much like a "black" hole. Even in the picture  
M-87* they have, the shadow is not quite as dark as the peripheral  
space suggesting there is some radio emission occurring between it and  
us.

And also, I know they billed it as a mere "picture" but would it have  
killed them to put in some form of scale or the galactic plane of M-87  
or something for reference? The shadow of the BH looks like an ellipse  
elongated in the NE to SW direction. That could be the equatorial  
plane of the black hole's rotation in which case it would be spinning  
pretty fast. But with no frame of reference it might as well be a  
photo of a UFO.

Stuart LaForge





From dsunley at gmail.com  Thu Apr 11 03:11:53 2019
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:11:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>

Ask, and ye shall receive :

https://xkcd.com/2135/

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 8:59 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
> Tomaz Kristan wrote:
>
> >
> > Shouldn't it be the Sagittarius? Much smaller and much closer one?
> >
> > Why is that now?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:38 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/science/black-hole-picture.html
> >>
>
> As John pointed out their angular widths should be about almost equal
> at 5:4 for SgrA* vs M-87*. While there is a lot of dust between us and
> SgrA*, that shouldn't affect meters-wide radiowaves. So my guess is
> that the paper published back in January that suggested that the radio
> jet of Sagittarius A* is pointed directly at us is actually correct.
>
>
> http://www.astronomy.com/news/2019/01/radio-jets-from-the-milky-ways-black-hole-could-be-pointing-right-at-earth
>
> The radio jet pointing directly at us would make the picture of SgrA*
> just look like a bright blotch of light with no dark "shadow" apparent
> so it would not look much like a "black" hole. Even in the picture
> M-87* they have, the shadow is not quite as dark as the peripheral
> space suggesting there is some radio emission occurring between it and
> us.
>
> And also, I know they billed it as a mere "picture" but would it have
> killed them to put in some form of scale or the galactic plane of M-87
> or something for reference? The shadow of the BH looks like an ellipse
> elongated in the NE to SW direction. That could be the equatorial
> plane of the black hole's rotation in which case it would be spinning
> pretty fast. But with no frame of reference it might as well be a
> photo of a UFO.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr 11 05:07:36 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:07:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006001d4f024$7af013f0$70d03bd0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Darin Sunley
Subject: Re: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

 

 

 

>?And also, I know they billed it as a mere "picture" but would it have  
killed them to put in some form of scale or the galactic plane of M-87  
or something for reference?  Stuart

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ask, and ye shall receive : 

 

https://xkcd.com/2135/  

 

 

 

 

Can we elect Randall Monroe as God?  Is he running for that job?  When can I start praying to him?  Anyone know which direction I need to face when I do?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 11 11:39:01 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 07:39:01 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2FWdJHyQt1FhxrJxze2DbsqHD9EBCstzH0PwDuKBX5JA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:00 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>

>
> * > As John pointed out their angular widths should be about almost equal
> at 5:4 for SgrA* vs M-87*. While there is a lot of dust between us and
> SgrA*, that shouldn't affect meters-wide radiowaves.*


Meter-wide waves couldn't give you the resolution required even with a
telescope the size of the Earth, they used millimeter and sub-millimeter
microwaves.

John K Clark








> The radio jet pointing directly at us would make the picture of SgrA*
> just look like a bright blotch of light with no dark "shadow" apparent
> so it would not look much like a "black" hole. Even in the picture
> M-87* they have, the shadow is not quite as dark as the peripheral
> space suggesting there is some radio emission occurring between it and
> us.
>
> And also, I know they billed it as a mere "picture" but would it have
> killed them to put in some form of scale or the galactic plane of M-87
> or something for reference? The shadow of the BH looks like an ellipse
> elongated in the NE to SW direction. That could be the equatorial
> plane of the black hole's rotation in which case it would be spinning
> pretty fast. But with no frame of reference it might as well be a
> photo of a UFO.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 11 12:06:37 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 08:06:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:17 PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:

Ask, and ye shall receive :
>
> https://xkcd.com/2135/
>

It's interesting that because the density of a Black Hole is inversely
proportional to the square of the mass the density of M87's Black Hole is
about that of air. Well it is if you count the Event Horizon as being the
boundary of the thing; Einstein says there is a point of infinite density
at the center although Quantum Mechanics disagrees. Nobody knows who's
right.

John K Clark



>
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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 11 15:54:01 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 17:54:01 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>

>  the density of M87's Black Hole is about that of air.

Which is incredibly cool. But if an interpretation of the Holographic
Principle is true, then a black hole has no interior, just its event
horizon, where all the mass resides.

Or rather, its volume is indistinguishable from its surface, the event
horizon.

All area, no volume, just a 2D quantum screen. I am not sure, that this
would be any cooler. Thinner then air may still be cooler.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 2:11 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:17 PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ask, and ye shall receive :
>>
>> https://xkcd.com/2135/
>>
>
> It's interesting that because the density of a Black Hole is inversely
> proportional to the square of the mass the density of M87's Black Hole is
> about that of air. Well it is if you count the Event Horizon as being the
> boundary of the thing; Einstein says there is a point of infinite density
> at the center although Quantum Mechanics disagrees. Nobody knows who's
> right.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 11 16:57:42 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 12:57:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 12:00 PM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

*> incredibly cool. But if an interpretation of the Holographic Principle
> is true, then a black hole has no interior, just its event horizon, where
> all the mass resides.*


Speaking of cool...the picture of the Black Hole we saw yesterday is at the
center of M87, a giant elliptical galaxy, one of the largest known, that
has 200 times as many stars as the Milky Way. And M87 is at the center of
the Virgo cluster which contains 1300 Galaxies. And the Virgo cluster is at
the center of the Virgo supercluster, a cluster of clusters, and one of
those clusters is the "Local Group" that contains Andromeda, the Milky Way,
and a few dwarf galaxies.

So the Earth goes around the sun, and the sun goes around the center of the
Milky Way and the Milky Way goes around the center of the Local Group and
the Local Group goes around the Virgo Supercluster and the center of the Virgo
Supercluster is the Virgo Cluster and the center of the Virgo Cluster is
M87 and the center of M87 is the black Hole we saw yesterday and the center
of that is a mystery.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Apr 11 17:26:54 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 10:26:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



 

 

>?and the center of the Virgo Cluster is M87 and the center of M87 is the black Hole we saw yesterday and the center of that is a mystery.

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

Oh my Evolution, what a time to be living.

 

spike

 

 

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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 09:07:15 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:07:15 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>

What can be even cooler than the accretion disk around a black hole?

No accretion disk around a black hole. Instead some stars behind that black
hole. Their images pretty much gravity lensed by the black hole. That's why
I insist on to see Sagittarius.

On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 7:32 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> *>?*and the center of the Virgo Cluster is M87 and the center of M87 is
> the black Hole we saw yesterday and the center of that is a mystery.
>
>
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh my Evolution, what a time to be living.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 12:36:07 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 08:36:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0vgVZRuVvExj+ptF8fokLyeE_rN3FA9X-enCzZ3oQV3w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 5:14 AM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

*> What can be even cooler than the accretion disk around a black hole? *
>
> *No accretion disk around a black hole. Instead some stars behind that
> black hole. Their images pretty much gravity lensed by the black hole.
> That's why I insist on to see Sagittarius.*
>

Why is that important? Plenty of things can cause detectable gravitational
lensing, even our own sun can do it, but as far as we know the only thing
that can cause a large star moving at 4800 miles a second make a super
tight hairpin turn around a point that emits no light is a 4 million solar
mass Black Hole. And we've been observing that for years.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05825-3

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 12 12:42:36 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:42:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

>?What can be even cooler than the accretion disk around a black hole? 

 

>?No accretion disk around a black hole. Instead some stars behind that black hole. Their images pretty much gravity lensed by the black hole. That's why I insist on to see Sagittarius.

 

 

 

 

 

Ja, because the accretion disk blocks the faint gravity lensed images of the stuff behind it.

 

I am struggling to understand why an accretion disk looks like this.  The whole thing is baffling, defying my intuition violently.  For starters, I don?t see why so much of the material is approximately in one plane.  My best guess is that it is mostly from one star, then as other material in other orbit planes comes down, it collides with material primarily in that very visible plane.

 

Oh this is so cool.  I am a total data addict: I have had that one monster hit, now I want another one.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 12 12:51:49 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:51:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <002201d4f12e$7f0a2d30$7d1e8790$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 5:43 AM
To: 'Tomaz Kristan' <protokol2020 at gmail.com>; 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: RE: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

 

 

From: Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com <mailto:protokol2020 at gmail.com> > 
Subject: Re: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

>?What can be even cooler than the accretion disk around a black hole? 

 

>?No accretion disk around a black hole. Instead some stars behind that black hole. Their images pretty much gravity lensed by the black hole. That's why I insist on to see Sagittarius.

 

 

 

 

 

Ja, because the accretion disk blocks the faint gravity lensed images of the stuff behind it.

 

I am struggling to understand why an accretion disk looks like this.  The whole thing is baffling, defying my intuition violently.  For starters, I don?t see why so much of the material is approximately in one plane.  My best guess is that it is mostly from one star, then as other material in other orbit planes comes down, it collides with material primarily in that very visible plane.

 

Oh this is so cool.  I am a total data addict: I have had that one monster hit, now I want another one.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh boy, retract, I realized what I am seeing and answered my own question: the image isn?t what I was thinking.  It occurred to me that there is material in various orbits.  However because of lensing, the light from the accretion disk will always appear circular from every point of view everywhere.  Oh I have so much to learn.

 

spike  

 

 

 

 

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From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 12:59:13 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:59:13 +0200
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <002201d4f12e$7f0a2d30$7d1e8790$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
 <002201d4f12e$7f0a2d30$7d1e8790$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQErRD9TDgg8Y9EPPcJ1fxYi6yj-gEt6SASWmmtucUptg@mail.gmail.com>

>  Why is that important? Plenty of things can cause detectable
gravitational lensing

Because we MIGHT see a very enlarged star there. Like through a natural
magnifying lens.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 2:51 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 12, 2019 5:43 AM
> *To:* 'Tomaz Kristan' <protokol2020 at gmail.com>; 'ExI chat list' <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* spike at rainier66.com
> *Subject:* RE: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
>
>
>
> >?What can be even cooler than the accretion disk around a black hole?
>
>
>
> >?No accretion disk around a black hole. Instead some stars behind that
> black hole. Their images pretty much gravity lensed by the black hole.
> That's why I insist on to see Sagittarius.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, because the accretion disk blocks the faint gravity lensed images of
> the stuff behind it.
>
>
>
> I am struggling to understand why an accretion disk looks like this.  The
> whole thing is baffling, defying my intuition violently.  For starters, I
> don?t see why so much of the material is approximately in one plane.  My
> best guess is that it is mostly from one star, then as other material in
> other orbit planes comes down, it collides with material primarily in that
> very visible plane.
>
>
>
> Oh this is so cool.  I am a total data addict: I have had that one monster
> hit, now I want another one.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Oh boy, retract, I realized what I am seeing and answered my own question:
> the image isn?t what I was thinking.  It occurred to me that there is
> material in various orbits.  However because of lensing, the light from the
> accretion disk will always appear circular from every point of view
> everywhere.  Oh I have so much to learn.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 13:12:22 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 06:12:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Another branch on the tree
Message-ID: <91FA5BAE-0464-45E9-88D7-149E1F3F7744@gmail.com>

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01152-3

Too bad H. erectus populations didn?t make it to the Western Hemisphere... Anyhow, not surprised yet another island species has been found.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 13:20:56 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 09:20:56 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
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 <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2bHuop=d3_x6aSfQUg0r8fdyBpibi8-kQ13gW-z4gEwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>  *I don?t see why so much of the material is approximately in one plane.*


Actually part of what you're seeing is light from the accretion disk from
behind the Black Hole that normally you couldn't see but because of the
intense gravity bending light around it you can. For example, the hole in
the doenut should be 1.5 times the Schwarzwild radius (because there are no
stable orbits between 1 and 1.5) but because of the distortion caused by
gravity bending light the hole in the doenut looks to us as if it has a
radius of 2.6 times the Schwarzwild radius.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 13:36:46 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 09:36:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CALMrAFQErRD9TDgg8Y9EPPcJ1fxYi6yj-gEt6SASWmmtucUptg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
 <002201d4f12e$7f0a2d30$7d1e8790$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFQErRD9TDgg8Y9EPPcJ1fxYi6yj-gEt6SASWmmtucUptg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0i8HAqr1bepPqcyBhY7yTfLFwo1tdOLbXVxFMNpw9eJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:18 AM Tomaz Kristan <protokol2020 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>>  Why is that important? Plenty of things can cause detectable
>> gravitational lensing
>
>
> *> Because we MIGHT see a very enlarged star there. Like through a natural
> magnifying lens.*
>

The probability that the line from Earth to something as small as a star
should just happen to pass super close to something as small as a Black
Hole is extremely low. But there are lots of lines from Earth to something
as large as a galaxy and there is a pretty good chance that one of them
will pass close to something as large as another galaxy. That's why we've
seen gravitational lensing of distant galaxies caused by nearer galaxies
but have not seen the same thing in stars.

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 12 14:21:51 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 07:21:51 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2bHuop=d3_x6aSfQUg0r8fdyBpibi8-kQ13gW-z4gEwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2bHuop=d3_x6aSfQUg0r8fdyBpibi8-kQ13gW-z4gEwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003d01d4f13b$131f7460$395e5d20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 6:21 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!

 

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>  I don?t see why so much of the material is approximately in one plane.

 

Actually part of what you're seeing is light from the accretion disk from behind the Black Hole that normally you couldn't see but because of the intense gravity bending light around it you can. For example, the hole in the doenut should be 1.5 times the Schwarzwild radius (because there are no stable orbits between 1 and 1.5) but because of the distortion caused by gravity bending light the hole in the doenut looks to us as if it has a radius of 2.6 times the Schwarzwild radius.

 

John K Clark

 

 

 

Ja I pondered why that image would look like that and came to these conclusions except without the numbers.  The cool thing about this is that it confirms the math: we can calculate the Schwarzschild radius based on the inner radius of the photo-ring, then do it a second way based on red/blue shifts of the nearby orbiting stars, and see that the mass agrees with the calcs.

 

Through all this, I am astonished at how much mass is in there.  It also makes me understand why the LIGO results keep coming back with two black holes of the same magnitude rather than a smaller black hole with a biggie.  Reason: the really biggies don?t make that kind of signal when they eat a smaller black hole.

 

Another reminder of a calc I did some time ago: given a big enough black hole, the event horizon doesn?t have that huge gravitational gradient.  From the point of view of the outside world, an object passing into the event horizon of one of these biggies would disappear into a red (well, very red) whoosh, but from the point of view of the object, not much happened.  Yet.

 

Hmmm, I might need to retract that notion too: the clock of the object slowed down to nothing as it passes into the event horizon.

 

Black holes are so cool.

 

spike

 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 12 17:10:49 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 10:10:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <003d01d4f13b$131f7460$395e5d20$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190410182610.Horde.U32t-dx0_bk7QAt0X-RI-yG@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAEptUkQnfNCQUOq51S1g7bB-qWnjExn2a98nA7-4=V9o65JZzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1w6b3oy4Eh24Cr6snCZHoyy8+cXE7pF8iti8x8VzDD1A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALMrAFQU_ETGC8PHDOkuDQXt_zAhMLo1XyMC62R79RNDULE0QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv28qGZN6Y_Y48wDZA1RehmSz7eVqiosn2+4wME1mEf-Ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <000501d4f08b$c2719110$4754b330$@rainier66.com>
 <CALMrAFSJYFYPKG2TKnfKU2rv9Q21EqCinK0TxF020Md89+FwhA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000c01d4f12d$35d30070$a1790150$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2bHuop=d3_x6aSfQUg0r8fdyBpibi8-kQ13gW-z4gEwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003d01d4f13b$131f7460$395e5d20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <000001d4f152$ad5b96a0$0812c3e0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

 

>?Ja I pondered why that image would look like that and came to these conclusions except without the numbers.  The cool thing about this is that it confirms the math: we can calculate the Schwarzschild radius based on the inner radius of the photo-ring, then do it a second way based on red/blue shifts of the nearby orbiting stars, and see that the mass agrees with the calcs?spike

 

 

 

Even cooler: it occurred to me that a smaller black hole would have a circular ring that is smaller of course but also more uniform and more tightly packed.  Oh I learned a lot from that image.

 

Fun aside: Einstein was sitting around thinking of all these things way back over 100 yrs ago, and going way the hell deeper in it than I can follow even now.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 19:47:43 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:47:43 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>

Examples of right-wing anti-science:

   1. Creationism.
   2. Global warming denialism.
   3. Anti-environmentalism generally.
   4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
   5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and
   sexually transmitted disease.
   6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to
   sex and gender.
   7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism.
   8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s a
   whole ?nother discussion.

Examples of left-wing anti-science:

   1. Anti-GMO hysteria.
   2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances.
   3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate
   doom rather than slow long-term change.
   4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up there
   when people are starving down here??

Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right:

   1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in
   liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are
   right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin.
   2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun control.
   Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same data, and
   they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are left crying
   in the wilderness.
   3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are giant
   cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing God?
   or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.?
   4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as
   arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.?

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 19:57:12 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:57:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1AE0658-592C-4688-8BB6-EFCA134B2F6A@gmail.com>

From Quora, no?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Apr 12, 2019, at 12:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Examples of right-wing anti-science:
> 
> Creationism.
> Global warming denialism.
> Anti-environmentalism generally.
> Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
> Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and sexually transmitted disease.
> Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender.
> Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism.
> Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s a whole ?nother discussion.
> Examples of left-wing anti-science:
> 
> Anti-GMO hysteria.
> Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances.
> Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate doom rather than slow long-term change.
> Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up there when people are starving down here??
> Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right:
> 
> Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin.
> Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun control. Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same data, and they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are left crying in the wilderness.
> Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.?
> Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.?
> bill w
> 
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 12 21:56:11 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 16:56:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <C1AE0658-592C-4688-8BB6-EFCA134B2F6A@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <C1AE0658-592C-4688-8BB6-EFCA134B2F6A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZOGGX5fNx-ALaKk4wYnvjnZ6fawQHXavQGE7vrf_9DHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes - I should have said that.  bill w

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:04 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From Quora, no?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> On Apr 12, 2019, at 12:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Examples of right-wing anti-science:
>
>    1. Creationism.
>    2. Global warming denialism.
>    3. Anti-environmentalism generally.
>    4. Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
>    5. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and
>    sexually transmitted disease.
>    6. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to
>    sex and gender.
>    7. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism.
>    8. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s
>    a whole ?nother discussion.
>
> Examples of left-wing anti-science:
>
>    1. Anti-GMO hysteria.
>    2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances.
>    3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate
>    doom rather than slow long-term change.
>    4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up
>    there when people are starving down here??
>
> Examples of anti-science shared by both left and right:
>
>    1. Antivax. Started as a left-wing mania, and still more common in
>    liberal communities, but some of the most prominent advocates are
>    right-wing politicians, e.g. Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin.
>    2. Abuse of statistics regarding crime issues, especially gun control.
>    Left- and right-wingers draw opposite conclusions from the same data, and
>    they both go to absurd extremes. Principled statisticians are left crying
>    in the wilderness.
>    3. Suspicion of the enterprise of science: the idea that there are
>    giant cabals of scientists working in secret with no oversight and ?playing
>    God? or uncovering ?things we weren?t meant to know.?
>    4. Closely related, the common cultural stereotypes of scientists as
>    arrogant, aloof, and out of touch with the lives of ?regular people.?
>
> bill w
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 13 01:40:35 2019
From: ablainey at aol.com (Alex Blainey)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 01:40:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] What happened to the good guys?
References: <1800799737.2878325.1555119635020.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1800799737.2878325.1555119635020@mail.yahoo.com>

Remember when the good guys won at the end of the film?
When after the long chase avoiding the minions of the evil shadow puppet masters, Finally the dossier was handed to the press or spread onto the Net. 
Then the baddies were instantly cuffed, put tin a cell and the key thrown away.

When did it change to those who publish the criminals deeds being thrown in the cell and the criminal talking about it on primetime TV, saying how wrong it is that social media allows this kind of thing to happen???

What went wrong?
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From ablainey at aol.com  Sat Apr 13 03:03:25 2019
From: ablainey at aol.com (Alex Blainey)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 03:03:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] bad news for T haters
References: <251475776.1364455.1555124605447.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <251475776.1364455.1555124605447@mail.yahoo.com>

 Huh?
My own theory is that gravity is both positive and negative and the pull/push felt is simply a Net effect depending on factors of density, mass, charge etc of the atom being influenced.
But as for "...empty space contains the dominant energy in the universe" would imply that the void somehow repells everything.
........maybe its some kind of evil twin to nature abores a vacuum. Maybe the vacuum abores nature?
In general terms, in the ying yang way the universe works that almost kinda makes, a bit of sense......maybe.
A.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 18:18
Subject: [ExI] bad news for T haters

In a preface to a collection of scifi stories (Hieroglyph), a theoretical physicist, Lawrence Krauss, says, in an apparent reference to T's head.....
"...empty space contains the dominant energy in the universe, producing a kind of cosmic antigravity that will determine our ultimate future."
btw - just what the hell does that really mean?
bill w_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 09:24:22 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 05:24:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Examples of right-wing anti-science:
>
>    1. Creationism.
>
> ### Well, yeah, this is the one real right-wing piece of science denial on
this list.


>
>    1. Global warming denialism.
>
> ### So say the same leftists who corrupted climate science, expelled
independent scientists, silenced opposition, forged data and colluded in
hiring activists into positions of power.

------------------

>
>    1. Anti-environmentalism generally.
>
> ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
humans, and not in the "environment"?

-----------------


>
>    1. Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
>
> ### The faithful believe fetuses have souls, they don't make any unusual
claims about fetal development.

-------------------


>
>    1. Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and
>    sexually transmitted disease.
>
> ### Right wingers claim that homosexuality and promiscuity do not
contribute to the risk of STDs, don't they?

---------------


>
>    1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to
>    sex and gender.
>
> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most
prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least
among whites.

-----------------


>
>    1. Pseudo-biological justifications for racism and sexism.
>
> ### Really? So the gender and grievance studies departments that fabricate
justifications for institutionalized leftist racism (like affirmative
action) or sexism (title IX) are in fact staffed by right-wingers?

------------------


>
>    1. Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science. That?s
>    a whole ?nother discussion.
>
> ### Because central planning and the 5 year plan are scientific?
----------------------


> Examples of left-wing anti-science:
>
>    1. Anti-GMO hysteria.
>    2. Opposition to nuclear power under any and all circumstances.
>    3. Other extremes of environmentalism, with predictions of immediate
>    doom rather than slow long-term change.
>    4. Opposition to space exploration: ?why are we spending money up
>    there when people are starving down here??
>
> ### This is letting leftists off the hook so easily. What about
IQ-denialism, race-denialism, opposition to climate engineering,
gender-denialism, attacks on STEM and Western science as racist or sexist?

It's sad when a piece of leftist propagandizing presents itself as balanced
centrism. The Overton window is so far left it fell out of the house.

Rafal
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 11:31:19 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 07:31:19 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

>>Anti-environmentalism generally.
>
>

> ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
> humans, and not in the "environment"?
>

All right wingers are clowns on environmental issues and most left wingers
are too but there are a few serious people, Stewart Brand comes to mind.

 >> Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
>
>

> ### The faithful believe fetuses have souls,
>

Forget fetuses, the faithful believe one celled zygotes have soles and the
morning after pill is murder, paradoxically they also believe souls are
immortal and and most believe that a soul that has left this life before
sinning goes to heaven, although some believe if unbaptised it will be
tortured for eternity by an all loving God.
I went to a religious grade school and was told it was wrong to kill a
person but OK to kill an animal because the person has an immortal soul but
the animal didn't;  I remember asking why that didn't mean it was more
immoral to kill a amamal than a person because unlike the person this life
was all the animal had but was hooted down with derision by the class
before I got an answer to my question.

> Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and sexually
>> transmitted disease
>>
>

> ### Right wingers claim that homosexuality and promiscuity do not
> contribute to the risk of STDs, don't they?
>

 ?*legitimate rape rarely causes pregnancy because the female body has ways
of shutting that down*."
Republican Senator Todd Akin  August 19 2012

>>Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science.
>>
>

>### Because central planning and the 5 year plan are scientific?
>

Right wingers ignore the scientific method and the OVERWHELMING evidence
that other countries provide much better health care to their citizens than
the USA and spend much much less money than the USA when doing so, and
continue to believe and, being totally impervious to contrary evidence,
will always believe the USA has the best health care system in the world
and we can learn absolutely nothing from anybody else about this.

In short both sides do the same unscientific thing, they use political
ideology to determine what must be true and how to solve social problems
and only then go looking for evidence that supports their view while
carefully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 13:37:52 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 08:37:52 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEasp14hpgdF=XjPBNt+Epqb20PkZO8s=du3Tu14MLq4wg@mail.gmail.com>

Rafal, you are stereotyping, just like the person you are attacking.  I am
a left/liberal/progressive - moderately so - and I don't believe in any of
those things you ascribe to liberals.  You are referring to upper East Ivy
League school far leftists and I am against them just as much as you are.

bill w

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 6:36 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>Anti-environmentalism generally.
>>
>>
>
> > ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
>> humans, and not in the "environment"?
>>
>
> All right wingers are clowns on environmental issues and most left wingers
> are too but there are a few serious people, Stewart Brand comes to mind.
>
>
>  >> Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
>>
>>
>
> > ### The faithful believe fetuses have souls,
>>
>
> Forget fetuses, the faithful believe one celled zygotes have soles and the
> morning after pill is murder, paradoxically they also believe souls are
> immortal and and most believe that a soul that has left this life before
> sinning goes to heaven, although some believe if unbaptised it will be
> tortured for eternity by an all loving God.
> I went to a religious grade school and was told it was wrong to kill a
> person but OK to kill an animal because the person has an immortal soul but
> the animal didn't;  I remember asking why that didn't mean it was more
> immoral to kill a amamal than a person because unlike the person this life
> was all the animal had but was hooted down with derision by the class
> before I got an answer to my question.
>
> > Rejection of epidemiology as it pertains to sex, pregnancy, and
>>> sexually transmitted disease
>>>
>>
>
> > ### Right wingers claim that homosexuality and promiscuity do not
>> contribute to the risk of STDs, don't they?
>>
>
>  ?*legitimate rape rarely causes pregnancy because the female body has
> ways of shutting that down*."
> Republican Senator Todd Akin  August 19 2012
>
> >>Supply-side economics, if you count economics as a science.
>>>
>>
>
> >### Because central planning and the 5 year plan are scientific?
>>
>
> Right wingers ignore the scientific method and the OVERWHELMING evidence
> that other countries provide much better health care to their citizens than
> the USA and spend much much less money than the USA when doing so, and
> continue to believe and, being totally impervious to contrary evidence,
> will always believe the USA has the best health care system in the world
> and we can learn absolutely nothing from anybody else about this.
>
> In short both sides do the same unscientific thing, they use political
> ideology to determine what must be true and how to solve social problems
> and only then go looking for evidence that supports their view while
> carefully ignoring any evidence that contradicts it.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 18:55:16 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 11:55:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com>

On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>  
>> Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain to sex and gender.
> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least among whites.

I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do you rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it seems to me that the science tends to support non-binary gender and also that gender is definitely influenced by things aside from biology (in other words, there?s no uncomplicated path from allosomes to hormones to genitals to gender). See the work of Cordelia Fine, especially her _Delusions of Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both of them rely on science to challenge binary gender and the simple model of sex/gender that many adhere to.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 13 19:31:26 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 12:31:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EF61C3C-3925-4E65-9D20-8CA1AC9FCD84@gmail.com>

On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Exaggerated claims about fetal development.
> ### The faithful believe fetuses have souls, they don't make any unusual claims about fetal development.

I guess that this is probably meant to cover fetuses feeling pain. The dominant view seems to be that before 24 weeks, fetuses don?t feel pain. Also, I?ve seen pro-life folks make other wrong statements about abortion, including that it causes depression, breast cancer, and fertility. 

And, sure, it might be true that their core view is there?s a soul in there (starting at conception), but usually anyone making a pro-life case will bring in other stuff since the soul argument isn?t likely to convince people who don?t already believe that. (I?m not going to blame anyone trying to persuade people for bringing in additional arguments provided the additional arguments are valid or don?t fly in the face of evidence. For instance, with myself, I?ll argue in favor of open immigration based on the right of people to peacefully travel and migrate, but I?ll also bring in the economic benefits and the fact that the major arguments for restricting immigration (one?s made both by folks like Bernie Sanders and the current president) are questionable at best.)

That said, when Bill W posted this, I took this to mean typical anti-science views held by one part of the spectrum and not that every last person on that part of the spectrum held those views.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Apr 14 01:30:19 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 18:30:19 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
Message-ID: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


John Clark wrote:


> It's interesting that because the density of a Black Hole is inversely
> proportional to the square of the mass the density of M87's Black Hole is
> about that of air.

Yes. It was considerations like this that motivated my research into  
what I called causal cells a couple of years ago. I was on the right  
track but then I found out that Leonard Susskind already described the  
same concept only he called them "causal patches" instead of causal  
cells.

In any case, what you describe is a direct consequence of the density  
and surface area of a black hole or causal cell being inversely  
proportional i.e. their products are a constant:

D*A = 3c^2/(2G)

> Well it is if you count the Event Horizon as being the boundary of the thing;

Why wouldn't you count it? To an outside observer, it is certainly is  
the boundary. And no infalling observer will ever be able to disagree  
with you because the moment he crosses it, (which must be from his  
point of view) he no longer has the ability to cause events in our  
causal cell. But from our point of view, he never crosses it. It is a  
separate discontinuous space-time a different casual cell, with the  
event horizon as a real boundary.

> Einstein says there is a point of infinite density
> at the center although Quantum Mechanics disagrees. Nobody knows who's
> right.

Probably quantum mechanics. My argument is mathematical and goes as follows:

Dividing a finite mass by zero volume is not an infinite density, it  
is a mathematically UNDEFINED density. In other words mass/zero  does  
not equal infinity because infinity*zero cannot equal every possible  
mass a black hole can have. If a singularity actually exists in the  
center of a black hole, it should be thought of as a point that is  
missing from the interior space of the black hole rather than a point  
that contains all the mass.

The mass is instead the vacuum energy of the inside of the black hole  
and is spread evenly throughout its interior the way dark energy is  
spread throughout our space-time.

This is because time and space axes get swapped when you cross an  
event horizon so they represent real discontinuities in space-time.  
The two causal cell separated by event horizons (or cosmological  
horizons) are causally independent space-times and times and places  
are exchanged when you cross them.

Thus those outside of the black hole conceive of as a location (a  
point at the center) while those inside would perceive it as a time in  
the future, e.g. next Tuesday. And it doesn't make sense for next  
Tuesday to have a mass at all. Even though empty space can in the form  
of vacuum or dark energy.


Stuart LaForge


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 12:05:12 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 08:05:12 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1N9wccMxSmiWisqvapPix05Rt5Ymrbz5SD2ZJ2wwf=QA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 9:36 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>
* >* Einstein says there is a point of infinite density at the center
>> although Quantum Mechanics disagrees. Nobody knows who's right.
>
>
> * > Probably quantum mechanics.*


That is certainly the conventional approach. People, including Einstein,
have been monkeying around with General Relativity for a century trying to
make it fit in with Quantum Mechanics and all have failed. And meanwhile
unmodified General Relativity has passed with flying colors every
experimental test thrown at it even the ones in recent years involving
super intense gravitational fields. Maybe it's time to try things from the
other direction and leave General Relativity alone and start monkeying
around with Quantum Mechanics to make it compatible with General Relativity.

* > My argument is mathematical and goes as follows: Dividing a finite mass
> by zero volume is not an infinite density, it  is a mathematically
> UNDEFINED density. *


Mathematics is a language, the best language ever found for describing the
workings of nature but there is no reason to think it's perfect. Nature is
the way it is and doesn't care if humans have defined something or not. And
besides, Einstein's theory may produce nonsense at one point (the center of
a Black Hole) but Quantum Mechanics produces nonsense at every point, it
says every volume in a vacuum has an infinite matter/energy density (or if
one makes the assumption unsupported by evidence that spacetime is
quantized then not infinite but *only* 10^120 times the density of lead)
and thus produces a infinite gravitational field (or a gravitational field
10^120 stronger that what lead can produce).

If we could come up with a theory that could describe how everything works
everywhere except at the mathematical point at the center of a Black Hole
that would be a huge advance.

John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 14:30:26 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:30:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2eJ6bscDaFrj8QK_WZQ35JKbYnLDcL9H40nsPVtmaLHPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:29 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
> humans, and not in the "environment"?
>

Yeah, I'd say it is. We're not at all close to being able to thrive without
the environment that formed us and supports us. Maybe we'll be there
someday, but until then we should probably try not to ignore our need for
our environment.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 18:19:42 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 13:19:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] quote
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEafgxrKnu+bwFR+ZS31-Pzj-8grcejAtDukskfA4WYUvA@mail.gmail.com>

>From Sal Khan, in USA Today:

"Cats playing piano can now get more attention than political leaders -
perhaps deservedly so."

Good article on tech

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 21:12:27 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 22:12:27 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Black Hole - How they did it documentary video.
Message-ID: <CAL_armg=8EnKhhhNaXabc8tmWT9D4Y0tic5jkUX3Yf5Bwgnp_A@mail.gmail.com>

BBC TV has a 1 hour video documentary showing how they linked all the
telescopes and got the black hole picture. They had a lot of problems
over the years to build the system. Worth watching.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xg5pznPcX0>
or
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0jBr9CossE>

If that doesn't work in your country, try -
<https://mirror.cat/tXSl5Xu>

If these don't work try a search for-    how-to-see-a-black-hole

BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 22:38:45 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 17:38:45 -0500
Subject: [ExI] free time
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbNd8Y78gOOTfykr=4ORbFrvmxgDTUQ8NMvas9piHUkJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Where is our time going?  Got a request on Quora and Googled the answer.
Here it is:

https://www.businessinsider.com/no-free-time-adam-alter-2017-5

bill w
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From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Apr 15 01:03:16 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 18:03:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <395277199.2981659.1555263796209@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1N9wccMxSmiWisqvapPix05Rt5Ymrbz5SD2ZJ2wwf=QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <395277199.2981659.1555263796209@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20190414180316.Horde.zaWGk6bwQl3glLLfEIltBoM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


John Clark wrote:

>> Einstein says there is a point of infinite density at the center  
>> although Quantum Mechanics disagrees. Nobody knows who's right.
>
>> Probably quantum mechanics.
>
> That is certainly the conventional approach. People, including  
> Einstein, have been monkeying around with General Relativity for a  
> century trying to make it fit in with Quantum Mechanics and all have  
> failed. And meanwhile unmodified General Relativity has passed with  
> flying colors every experimental test thrown at it even the ones in  
> recent years involving super intense gravitational fields. Maybe  
> it's time to try things from the other direction and leave General  
> Relativity alone and start monkeying around with Quantum Mechanics  
> to make it compatible with General Relativity.

Ok, so let's assume that the GR singularity is a literal point mass  
and lets forget about density for a minute. Let's model its position  
as a Dirac delta function. Since it is at an exact location in space  
that Einstein gives us, our uncertainty in the singularity's position  
is minimized. However, Heisenberg says this should result in us having  
maximum uncertainty of the singularity's momentum, that is to say its  
mass, trajectory, and speed. It could be headed away from us or toward  
us and we wouldn't know until it was too late. The most massive things  
in the universe can also be the sneakiest, how's that for irony?

Another way to think about it is that the Fourier transform of the  
Dirac delta function (i.e. position) in the time domain to the  
frequency domain yields a single frequency sine wave as the momentum  
probability amplitude which means that it could have any number of  
possible momenta with equal probability and we have no way of knowing  
which momentum it actuality has.

I will leave it up to you whether you allow Heisenberg to divide by  
zero the way you allowed Einstein to. But the problem is that all  
black holes and causal cells are finite in size regardless of the size  
of the universe as a whole. That is to say that even if the universe  
is infinite, our patch of causally-connected space-time is not.  
Therefore nothing we can measure should ever be allowed to be infinite  
in our calculations.


>> My argument is mathematical and goes as follows: Dividing a finite  
>> mass by zero volume is not an infinite density, it? is a  
>> mathematically UNDEFINED density.
>
> Mathematics is a language, the best language ever found for  
> describing the workings of nature but there is no reason to think  
> it's perfect. Nature is the way it is and doesn't care if humans  
> have defined something or not.

This is precisely why I pay more attention to the measured value of  
dark energy than the nonsense the quantum field theorists calculated  
using infinity in their calculations.

> And besides, Einstein's theory may produce nonsense at one point  
> (the center of a Black Hole) but Quantum Mechanics produces nonsense  
> at every point, it says every volume in a vacuum has an infinite  
> matter/energy density (or if one makes the assumption unsupported by  
> evidence that spacetime is quantized then?not infinite but *only*  
> 10^120 times the density of lead) and thus produces a infinite  
> gravitational field (or a gravitational?field 10^120 stronger that  
> what lead can produce).

The whole problem rests on the fact that we let quantum field  
theorists use infinity instead of forcing them to use discrete math  
with finite boundary conditions for what is by definition a discrete  
phenomenon. You can't let the wave functions of quantum harmonic  
oscillators or particles or anything else take on infinite values  
because our causal cell is not infinite in extent nor is the  
observable universe.

Allow me to demonstrate how to "fix" the quantum vacuum energy calculation.

First we treat the entire causal cell as a large but not infinite  
collection of quantum oscillators that can assume many different  
vibrational modes but NOT an infinite number of vibrational modes  
since our causal cell is finite in both space and time.

That is to say that our causal cell is 13.8 billion years old. That is  
approximately Tu = 4.45*10^17 seconds old. So we set the fundamental  
frequency as Fmin = 1/Tu or 2.30*10^-18 Hertz. The intuition here is  
that the lowest possible frequency oscillator that can possibly be  
measured is one that has only vibrated half-way since the beginning of  
time, i.e. the Big Bang.

Similarly there is a maximum frequency to a quantum oscillator within  
our causal and that

Now according to QM, the equation for the nth energy state of the  
quantum harmonic oscillator is E(n) = (h*Fmin/2)(n+1/2) with n=0 being  
the ground state and n only taking integer values. h is Planck's  
constant and F is the frequency as usual.

The next step is to realize that the only possible frequencies that  
the quantum harmonic oscillators can vibrate at are whole number  
multiples of the fundamental frequency. This is the whole meaning of  
the term "harmonic". That is to say that the number of possible  
frequencies are finite and bounded both from above as well as below.  
In other words, there is a maximum frequency that a quantum oscillator  
can vibrate at and that is the Planck frequency or one cycle per  
Planck time or Fmax = 1/Tp = 1.85*10^43 Hertz.

That means that the highest harmonic of the fundamental frequency that  
a quantum oscillator can attain is n_max = Fmax/Fmin = 8.08*10^60.

Now to figure out what the vacuum energy of our causal cell is  
requires one final assumption which is that no two quantum harmonic  
oscillators in our causal cell can vibrate with the exact same  
frequency or have the same value of "n".

Now we can calculate the total vacuum energy of our causal cell as

E_vac = E(0) + E(1) + E(2) + . . . + E(n_max) = (h*Fmin/2)*(n_max+1)^2  
= 2.48*10^70 Joules or dividing by c^2 gives 2.76*10^53 kilograms.

This is pretty darn close to current estimates of the mass of the  
observable universe, which makes sense as since the mass of the  
universe is dominated by dark energy s you can see here:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-mass-of-the-universe?redirected_qid=21252687

And all I used were the observed age of the universe, the Planck time,  
and the equation for the quantum harmonic oscillator.

Stuart LaForge



From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 00:04:13 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:04:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEasp14hpgdF=XjPBNt+Epqb20PkZO8s=du3Tu14MLq4wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEasp14hpgdF=XjPBNt+Epqb20PkZO8s=du3Tu14MLq4wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFgbXreAfJOEPm_uuPXRkaV9vHdScfwA0XR76v-Mwk5-5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 9:42 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Rafal, you are stereotyping, just like the person you are attacking.  I am
> a left/liberal/progressive - moderately so - and I don't believe in any of
> those things you ascribe to liberals.  You are referring to upper East Ivy
> League school far leftists and I am against them just as much as you are.
>
> ### I am not attacking anybody, just observing that the listicle was
written by a leftist with only minor quibbles with the typical leftist
dogma. Why pay attention to it then?

It doesn't help to quote low quality materials on the list.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 00:28:55 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:28:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <88CEE5E3-9DC8-422C-99D1-2DC5A369AAB5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFi=hA7pdD-mnNJOKthNtp6sJ12fNSQ3nSU1dMGfyJbONA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 2:55 PM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Apr 13, 2019, at 2:24 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 3:52 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>    1. Rejection of genetics, neurology, and psychology as they pertain
>>    to sex and gender.
>>
>> ### No, really? Rejection of the science of gender is one of the most
> prominent features of modern leftist identity, not right-identity, at least
> among whites.
>
>
> I?m curious what you mean here by rejecting of the science of gender. Do
> you rejection of binary gender and of bioessentialism in gender? If so, it
> seems to me that the science tends to support non-binary gender and also
> that gender is definitely influenced by things aside from biology (in other
> words, there?s no uncomplicated path from allosomes to hormones to genitals
> to gender). See the work of Cordelia Fine, especially her _Delusions of
> Gender_, and Anne Fausto-Sterling on this. Both of them rely on science to
> challenge binary gender and the simple model of sex/gender that many adhere
> to.
>

### Gender is of course a biological trait, with culturally modified
manifestations. As any complex biological trait gender is not "binary",
since thousands of moving parts don't neatly partition into two sets -
there are always millions of ways for a mechanism to go wrong and produce
all kinds of more or less bizarre versions. What today's extreme leftists
do is they deny the importance of the biological underpinnings of gender
and they claim that a person's expressed preference to be included in some
gender category is sufficient for inclusion, regardless of other
measurables. They also deny the normative distinction between healthy,
adaptive genders, of which there are two, and the diverse gradations of
deviancy.

So, they say that a psychologically disturbed man or a malingering man may
claim himself to be a woman and we, normal people, are obliged to respect
his claims.

Rafal
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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 00:38:40 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:38:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2eJ6bscDaFrj8QK_WZQ35JKbYnLDcL9H40nsPVtmaLHPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM5aL2eJ6bscDaFrj8QK_WZQ35JKbYnLDcL9H40nsPVtmaLHPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAc1gFjfWwQZnGmv7WM8X59gSDjkntm+-+uOK45_=jSaUEOoSA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 10:30 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:29 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <
> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
>> humans, and not in the "environment"?
>>
>
> Yeah, I'd say it is. We're not at all close to being able to thrive
> without the environment that formed us and supports us. Maybe we'll be
> there someday, but until then we should probably try not to ignore our need
> for our environment.
>
> ### Wait, what is it that you are actually saying:

1. It is anti-scientific to be a humanist
2. It is anti-scientific to not be an environmentalist (i.e. somebody who
ascribes moral subjectship to a collection of non-human entities, including
inanimate, plant and animal ones)
3. For a humanist it is advisable to pay attention to the environment in
order to avoid harming humans

All of the above? Only #3?
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 01:27:45 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:27:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFgbXreAfJOEPm_uuPXRkaV9vHdScfwA0XR76v-Mwk5-5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAc1gFixoj4KsuTzJS1y=fhLg2q1vDhe_C1zOB9XS9Lsxr-9Qg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv0wta=S0ERn9-03C3HQ7=3+CbSoLDHZUNoovbQJL0d6wg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 8:10 PM Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

>### I am not attacking anybody, just observing that the listicle was
> written by a leftist
>

In politics do the terms "left"and "right" still mean anything?. At one
time the right stood for people who thought the budget deficit was super
important but now they think it is of no importance whatsoever.  And the
left said you could put any drug you want into your body, but no longer.
The right once though government had no right to pass laws preventing free
trade, but now the right is full of self described "tariff men". The left
says there is no greater problem than global warming but despite nuclear
power's excellent safety record and its zero emission of greenhouse gasses
will shout down anyone who even tries to consider it. In the past the left
was as absolute in its support of the first amendment as the right is of
the second, but that is no longer true. And the left, for some bizarre
reason I don't pretend to understand now opposes vaccines, an invention
that has saved more lives than any other.  About the only thing that hasn't
changes is the right still opposes Evolution, they still hear a invisible
man is the sky telling then what to do, and they still believe that life
begins at erection.

So I don't know if I'm a leftist or a rightest, but I do know I'm not a
moderate.

John K Clark

.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 02:28:49 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 22:28:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190414180316.Horde.zaWGk6bwQl3glLLfEIltBoM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1N9wccMxSmiWisqvapPix05Rt5Ymrbz5SD2ZJ2wwf=QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <395277199.2981659.1555263796209@mail.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv09E0JgRUfkbVKWjrMygOKkFA-OeGaWsV1bzEphBPeiGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 9:09 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:


>
> *> I will leave it up to you whether you allow Heisenberg to divide by
> zero the way you allowed Einstein to.*


General Relativity only divides by zero at the center of a Black Hole and
I'm sure even Einstein would agree that his theory breaks down at that
point, but at every other point it either makes correct predictions or it
remains silent and makes no prediction at all, at no other point does it
make absurd predictions as Quantum Mechanics does when it attempts to
calculate the mass/energy density of the vacuum.


> >
> *The whole problem rests on the fact that we let quantum field  theorists
> use infinity*


We let them because it works, at least for electromagnetism. In a vacuum
the average value of a electric field is zero if you add up all the plus
and minus values, but the energy density is proportional to the field
squared and that is infinite. But Feynman with his re-normalization found
that the absolute value of the energy density doesn't matter and only the
changes in it are important. Feynman admitted that a  mathematician might
not approve of how he did it but nature did approve because it allow him to
make predictions that agreed with experiment to better than one part in a
trillion. But his method won't work with gravity because it does depend on
the absolute value of the energy density.


>
> *> You can't let the wave functions of quantum harmonic  oscillators or
> particles or anything else take on infinite values  *
>

You can if the thing has both positive and  negative infinities and you can
get them to cancel out as Feynman did.  People thought that with
supersymmetry  the positive and negative infinities would cancel out and
the mass/energy density would turn out to be exactly zero, and then we'd be
well on our way to having a quantum theory of gravity. But then just as we
thought we were making real progress 2 ENORMOUS problems showed up:

1) Supersymmetric particles don't seem to exist, the LHC hasn't seen even a
hint of them and it should have.

2) We know know from the observation of a accelerating universe that the
mass/energy density is not infinite or 10^120 or  zero, it is instead a
very very small finite number. So now we have to find a way to cancel out
everything EXCEPT  for one part in 10^120, a vastly more difficult task
than just canceling everything out.

>* So we set the fundamental frequency as Fmin = 1/Tu or 2.30*10^-18 Hertz.
> The intuition here is that the lowest possible frequency oscillator that
> can possibly be  measured is one that has only vibrated half-way since the
> beginning of  time, i.e. the Big Bang.*


A electromagnetic wave with a  frequency that low would contain such a
absurdly small amount of mass/energy it's not worth considering.

>
>
there is a maximum frequency that a quantum oscillator  can vibrate at


That would be true only if spacetime was not continuous, and there is no
experimental evidence for that.


> >
>
>
> *Now to figure out what the vacuum energy of our causal cell is  requires
> one final assumption which is that no two quantum harmonic  oscillators in
> our causal cell can vibrate with the exact same  frequency or have the same
> value of "n".*
>

That's true for Fermions like electrons protons and neutrons but not for
Bosons like photons of light; any number of photons can be in the same
quantum state.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 16 03:51:22 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:51:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] auto-braking
Message-ID: <028b01d4f407$a8e86d20$fab94760$@rainier66.com>

 

 

My neighbor bought one of those cars which is supposed to automatically hit
the brakes to prevent hitting the car in front, but he is afraid to test it.
I inquired about the wisdom of buying such a system if one does not test it
to see if it works.  He agreed he would like to know, but is unwilling to
risk his life or allow anyone else to risk theirs to test it.

 

It occurred to me this is our chance to make a buttload of money.  We could
get some big foam-rubber blocks, perhaps 50 x 30 x 30 cm, stack them to make
a "brick wall" which will not hurt the car or the driver if the computer
decides to drive through, or misjudges the distance or any other thing.

 

We could set up a hose, test the car, wet the pavement, repeat.

 

Anyone here have one of those cars?  Have you tested it?

 

We could let proles race towards that foam block wall, test their cars for
50 bucks.

 

spike

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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 04:17:06 2019
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 14:17:06 +1000
Subject: [ExI] auto-braking
In-Reply-To: <028b01d4f407$a8e86d20$fab94760$@rainier66.com>
References: <028b01d4f407$a8e86d20$fab94760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAH=2ypUBZA1Lf_hcR=CA1eou+W-0mcRg1oU6cvir6PTRYaJfZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 13:54, Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> My neighbor bought one of those cars which is supposed to automatically
> hit the brakes to prevent hitting the car in front, but he is afraid to
> test it.  I inquired about the wisdom of buying such a system if one does
> not test it to see if it works.  He agreed he would like to know, but is
> unwilling to risk his life or allow anyone else to risk theirs to test it.
>
>
>
> It occurred to me this is our chance to make a buttload of money.  We
> could get some big foam-rubber blocks, perhaps 50 x 30 x 30 cm, stack them
> to make a ?brick wall? which will not hurt the car or the driver if the
> computer decides to drive through, or misjudges the distance or any other
> thing.
>
>
>
> We could set up a hose, test the car, wet the pavement, repeat.
>
>
>
> Anyone here have one of those cars?  Have you tested it?
>
>
>
> We could let proles race towards that foam block wall, test their cars for
> 50 bucks.
>

Big empty cardboard boxes are probably easier to come by than foam blocks.
My car puts on the brakes if you approach a wall too fast when parking.

-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 16 04:39:26 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 21:39:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] auto-braking
In-Reply-To: <CAH=2ypUBZA1Lf_hcR=CA1eou+W-0mcRg1oU6cvir6PTRYaJfZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <028b01d4f407$a8e86d20$fab94760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAH=2ypUBZA1Lf_hcR=CA1eou+W-0mcRg1oU6cvir6PTRYaJfZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02b201d4f40e$60234270$2069c750$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2019 9:17 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] auto-braking

 

 

 

On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 13:54, Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 ?

Anyone here have one of those cars?  Have you tested it?

 

We could let proles race towards that foam block wall, test their cars for 50 bucks.

 

>?Big empty cardboard boxes are probably easier to come by than foam blocks. 

My car puts on the brakes if you approach a wall too fast when parking.

 

-- 

Stathis Papaioannou

 

 

 

Good point.  We could use the lightweight boxes, which don?t cost much.

 

The foam blocks might hold up better, but if the systems work (one must assume they do) then the paper boxes might be a better way to go.  One might assume the manufacturer would not be selling these things if they don?t work.

 

I thought of something else.  If one has driven in the American desert, one has likely seen tumbleweeds blow across the road in one?s path.  If one is driving at night, encounters with the wretched flora is inevitable.  These can be huge, two or even three meters in diameter, but there is nothing to them.  They are kinda fun to hit at high speed: they explode in a most satisfying manner.

 

Now I am wondering: would those auto-braking systems see right thru a tumbleweed, or would it try to stop?

 

spike

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From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 06:40:31 2019
From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 02:40:31 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0wta=S0ERn9-03C3HQ7=3+CbSoLDHZUNoovbQJL0d6wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 9:28 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> So I don't know if I'm a leftist or a rightest, but I do know I'm not a
> moderate.
>
>
### I am pretty sure I am neither leftist nor rightist nor moderate, which
on this list should be par for the course.

But, I must say that leftists anger me more nowadays because they have all
the power and they can harm me, while right wingers are has-beens as far as
power goes, so they don't bother me anymore.
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 07:05:42 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 00:05:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFj7nhBnanJenLk1VbvT6o-Q14ewM=Pk7y3ZDO=bZkZuQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTcXm3bef2w4-EpxjwH8cvuUx4=6v66jiHMghpsGkysuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:45 PM Rafal Smigrodzki <
rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> But, I must say that leftists anger me more nowadays because they have all
> the power and they can harm me, while right wingers are has-beens as far as
> power goes, so they don't bother me anymore.
>

You mean, in spite of right wingers controlling the US Senate and occupying
the White House?
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 12:34:37 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 08:34:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFjfWwQZnGmv7WM8X59gSDjkntm+-+uOK45_=jSaUEOoSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cvWHfFUejKc1Y1U437jNNsPQVDBE9Z5Y_h3SMuyGMTmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 8:45 PM Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 10:30 AM Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 5:29 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <
>> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ### So it's anti-scientific to be a humanist, someone who sees value in
>>> humans, and not in the "environment"?
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, I'd say it is. We're not at all close to being able to thrive
>> without the environment that formed us and supports us. Maybe we'll be
>> there someday, but until then we should probably try not to ignore our need
>> for our environment.
>>
>> ### Wait, what is it that you are actually saying:
>
> 1. It is anti-scientific to be a humanist
> 2. It is anti-scientific to not be an environmentalist (i.e. somebody who
> ascribes moral subjectship to a collection of non-human entities, including
> inanimate, plant and animal ones)
> 3. For a humanist it is advisable to pay attention to the environment in
> order to avoid harming humans
>
> All of the above? Only #3?
>

I'm saying it's anti-scientific to value humans but not the environment
they need in order to thrive.

-Dave
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr 16 12:43:33 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 08:43:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] antiscience from both sides
In-Reply-To: <CAAc1gFj7nhBnanJenLk1VbvT6o-Q14ewM=Pk7y3ZDO=bZkZuQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb+yMuMi-3rmBv9cjRng6LKX8iedBe8T7fV4DMg8V1bOg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv27J-tcwQ0129kzhJMNjD67roX8==shFS8pd2ZZU3e9Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAAc1gFgbXreAfJOEPm_uuPXRkaV9vHdScfwA0XR76v-Mwk5-5w@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1QE61tjukPVJw3rhE99Y9bY3nFNVmzp81NGDFn_wY0nQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:48 AM Rafal Smigrodzki <rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com>
wrote:

> ### *I am pretty sure I am neither leftist nor rightist nor moderate,
> which on this list should be par for the course.*
>

Today, at least in the USA, "right" and "left" are just tribal labels that
have little to do with ideas and only one thing keeps the tribes together,
the right are in blind love with Donald Trump while the left are appalled
by his dishonesty and willful ignorance of facts. That's why Trump's
approval ratings stay put at about 40% regardless of what happens in the
world around him or what he does or doesn't do.

 > *But, I must say that leftists anger me more nowadays because they have
> all the power and they can harm me*


The right terrifies me more nowadays because an H-bomb can harm me and only
they have the keys to a nuclear submarine. And the right has the power, and
I think the will, to put tanks in the streets the day after the 2020
election if things don't turn out the way they like. I know some will say
I'm being paranoid and I really hope they turn out to have been right.


> > *while right wingers are has-beens as far as power goes,*
>

It is a metaphysical certitude that those who claim the acceleration of the
wealth gap between the top 0.01% and everybody else can continue forever
just as it has for the last few years and believe measures should be taken
to accelerate the acceleration (as with recent tax legislation) will loose.
It's only a matter of time.

John K Clark
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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Apr 16 23:55:30 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:55:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <792315285.90742.1555382891127@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1N9wccMxSmiWisqvapPix05Rt5Ymrbz5SD2ZJ2wwf=QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <395277199.2981659.1555263796209@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190414180316.Horde.zaWGk6bwQl3glLLfEIltBoM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <20190416165530.Horde.CyXdBlsXe5M0u4jR9hBYNCQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


John Clark wrote:

>> I will leave it up to you whether you allow Heisenberg to divide by?
> zero the way you allowed Einstein to.
>
> General Relativity only divides by zero at the center of a Black  
> Hole and I'm sure even Einstein would agree that his theory breaks  
> down at that point, but at every other point it either makes correct  
> predictions or it remains silent and makes no prediction at all, at  
> no other point does it make absurd predictions as Quantum Mechanics  
> does when it attempts to calculate the mass/energy density of the  
> vacuum.??

I think too much "shut up and calculate" Copenhagen indoctrination has  
caused generations of physicists to learn the math of QM without  
trying to understand its significance. Itis  ultimately about waves  
and waves have certain behaviors. Harmonics being among them.

>> The whole problem rests on the fact that we let quantum field?
> theorists use infinity
>
> We let them because it works, at least for electromagnetism. In a  
> vacuum the average value of a electric field is zero if you add up  
> all the plus and minus values, but the energy density is  
> proportional to the field squared and that is infinite. But Feynman  
> with his re-normalization found that the absolute value of the  
> energy density doesn't matter and only the changes in it are  
> important. Feynman admitted that a ?mathematician might not approve  
> of how he did it but nature did approve because it allow him to make  
> predictions that agreed with experiment to better than one part in a  
> trillion. But his method won't work with gravity because it does  
> depend on the?absolute value of the energy density.

Ok. So maybe an infinite number of quantum oscillators destructively  
interfere with each other except for the first 10^60 harmonics of the  
fundamental frequency. My result stands. You want me to bring in  
unnecessary infinities just to show you that they cancel out?

>> You can't let the wave functions of quantum harmonic?
> oscillators or particles or anything else take on infinite values?
>
> You can if the thing has both positive and ?negative infinities and  
> you can get them to cancel out as Feynman did.? People thought that  
> with supersymmetry? the positive and negative infinities would  
> cancel out and the mass/energy density would turn out to be exactly  
> zero, and then we'd be well on our way to having a quantum theory of  
> gravity. But then just as we thought we were making real progress 2  
> ENORMOUS problems showed up:
> 1) Supersymmetric particles don't seem to exist, the LHC hasn't seen  
> even a hint of them and it should have.
> 2) We know know from the observation of a accelerating universe that  
> the mass/energy density is not infinite or 10^120 or? zero, it is  
> instead a very very small finite number. So now we have to find a  
> way to cancel out everything EXCEPT? for one part in 10^120, a  
> vastly more difficult task than just canceling everything out.

Dark Energy doesn't cancel out because it is in resonance with the big  
bang. That would be my guess. After all vacuum energy is caused by  
quantum fluctuations which is also what purportedly caused the big bang.

>> So we set the fundamental frequency as Fmin = 1/Tu or 2.30*10^-18  
>> Hertz. The intuition here is that the lowest possible frequency  
>> oscillator that can possibly be ?measured is one that has only  
>> vibrated half-way since the beginning of ?time, i.e. the Big Bang.
>
> A electromagnetic wave with a ?frequency that low would contain  
> such?a absurdly small amount of mass/energy it's not worth  
> considering.

I never claimed dark energy was electromagnetic in nature. All I  
claimed was that dark energy was the sum of the fundamental frequency  
of the universe and its harmonic overtones. Think of Fmin as the  
frequency of occurrence of big bangs (which will change the older the  
universe gets without another big bang) and Fmax the frequency of the  
energy released from the big bang. Every other frequency we measure  
must logically fall within those bounds.


>> there is a maximum frequency that a quantum oscillator? can vibrate at

> That would be true only if spacetime was not continuous, and there  
> is no experimental evidence for that. ? ??

Not necessarily. I can't rule out discrete space-time but a maximum  
frequency cutoff can exist even if space-time is continuous. Consider  
this: The shorter the wavelength of a wave, the higher the frequency.  
The higher the frequency of a wave, the higher the energy of the wave.  
The higher the energy of a wave, the more it bends its surrounding  
space-time. If the frequency exceeds 5.23*10^42 Hertz, then the  
wavelength is shorter than the Schwarzschild radius of the wave which  
means that you get a tiny black hole and the wave can't propagate  
anywhere because it is stuck. This is called either a kugelblitz or a  
geon.

Of course such a micro-sized black hole should be very unstable and  
instantly evaporate into Hawking radiation but chances are it would  
decay into lower energy particles with a lower frequency. Nonetheless  
kugelblitzes and geons do suggest that that there is a maximum  
frequency at which a wave can propagate. Curiously, if I use the  
kugelblitz frequency instead of the Planck frequency as the Fmax in my  
harmonic oscillator calculations, I get a mass of 8.79*10^52 kilograms  
for the vacuum energy. Which puts the mass of ordinary matter in the  
observable universe listed by wikipedia as 4.5*10^51 kilograms at  
4.87% of the mass of the universe.

4.5*10^51/(8.79*10^52 + 4.5*10^51) = .0487

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observable_universe

I don't understand how my calculations could be a mere coincidence  
when there are 122 orders of magnitude at play and I am off by a mere  
3/100th of 1 percent from observed experimental results.


>> Now to figure out what the vacuum energy of our causal cell is?
> requires one final assumption which is that no two quantum harmonic?
> oscillators in our causal cell can vibrate with the exact same?
> frequency or have the same value of "n".
>
>
> That's true for Fermions like electrons protons and neutrons but not  
> for Bosons like photons of light; any number of photons can be in  
> the same quantum state.

Well if dark energy were made of photons of light, then it probably  
wouldn't be so mysterious. Perhaps this is evidence that gravitons are  
fermions.

Stuart LaForge






From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 02:16:27 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:16:27 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>

Bill Weld was the 2016 vice presidential nominee of the Libertarian Party
and has announced he will challenge Donald Trump for the
Republican nomination.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/politics/bill-weld-2020-trump/index.html

John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 04:32:18 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:32:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a snowball's chance of him getting the California Republican
primary votes?

If so, with California no longer being at the end of the primaries, might
that translate into enough support to dump Trump from the nomination?

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 7:26 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bill Weld was the 2016 vice presidential nominee of the Libertarian Party
> and has announced he will challenge Donald Trump for the
> Republican nomination.
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/politics/bill-weld-2020-trump/index.html
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 13:50:07 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:50:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:38 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> *> Is there a snowball's chance of him getting the California Republican
> primary votes?*
>

Probably not, but even so this is good news. Incumbent  presadent Lyndon
Johnson was challenged for the Democratic nomination in 1968 by Eugene
Mccarthy, Gerald Ford was challenged for the Republican nomination in 1976
by Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter was challenged for the Democratic nomination
in 1980 by Edward Kennedy, George H W Bush was challenged for the
Republican nomination in 1992 by Pat Buchanan. In each case the challenger
failed however the incumbent presadent was so weakened in the fight he
failed to win a second term in the general election. Of course in this case
whether Trump's failure to win the general election means he won't be
Commander In Chief for another 4 years, or for the rest of his life, is
another question entirely.

At any rate I applaud Weld for making this effort, perhaps he is trying to
make amends for the colossal damage he caused to the country and to the
world in 2016. If the Libertarian Party has one ounce of remaining
integrity (which I doubt) then they will not nominate anybody for presadent
but will instead aim all their support toward Weld. And every libertarian
in California (both small l and large) should immediately change their
voter affiliation to Republican so they can vote in the primary.

 John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 16:06:04 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:06:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQvswCbdQxsFp79XSFqVvK4CUD9d7dshWkioL05Ej=t=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 6:59 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> If the Libertarian Party has one ounce of remaining integrity (which I
> doubt) then they will not nominate anybody for presadent but will instead
> aim all their support toward Weld.
> <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat>


Assuming Weld loses, as is likely, what would be the damage if the LP both
nominated someone and supported Weld?  The LP's nomination would presumably
happen well after the Republican primaries, so these would be two separate
contests.  And, the LP seems likely to draw off far more Republicans who
don't like Trump but refuse to vote Democratic, than all other groups of
voters combined - so if anything, they would deprive Trump of Electoral
College votes.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 17:20:41 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:20:41 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190416165530.Horde.CyXdBlsXe5M0u4jR9hBYNCQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190413183019.Horde.dh6nIYjP9n13VFSAHIZQmD1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv1N9wccMxSmiWisqvapPix05Rt5Ymrbz5SD2ZJ2wwf=QA@mail.gmail.com>
 <395277199.2981659.1555263796209@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190414180316.Horde.zaWGk6bwQl3glLLfEIltBoM@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv09E0JgRUfkbVKWjrMygOKkFA-OeGaWsV1bzEphBPeiGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <792315285.90742.1555382891127@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190416165530.Horde.CyXdBlsXe5M0u4jR9hBYNCQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Z5wvO_A5ctcSnqt5asz4CAsxHw_ervQOSKJEvb1zh-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:43 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

 >>A electromagnetic wave with a  frequency that low would contain such a
>> absurdly small amount of mass/energy it's not worth  considering.
>
>

*> I never claimed dark energy was electromagnetic in nature.*


With any sort of wave the longer the wavelength the less energy it
contains, and you're talking about a wave almost as large as the observable
universe.

* > Dark Energy doesn't cancel out because it is in resonance with the
> big bang. That would be my guess. *


It would be easy to understand if Dark Energy didn't cancel out and only a
little harder to understand if it didn't, but trying to figure out why
everything cancels out EXCEPT for one part in 10^120 is ridiculously hard.


> >*I never claimed dark energy was electromagnetic in nature.*


The mystery is not that Dark Energy exists but that it's so weak. It's been
known for many years that electromagnetism should cause Dark Energy but the
calculated strength is so huge the universe would accelerate so fast that a
trillionth of a second after the Big Bang no proton would be closer than a
billion light years from another proton. Needless to say that's not the
universe we live in, it's been called the worse disagreement between theory
and observation in the entire history of science.


>
>
>
>
>
>
> * > a maximum  frequency cutoff can exist even if space-time is
> continuous. Consider  this: The shorter the wavelength of a wave, the
> higher the frequency.  The higher the frequency of a wave, the higher the
> energy of the wave.  The higher the energy of a wave, the more it bends its
> surrounding  space-time. If the frequency exceeds 5.23*10^42 Hertz, then
> the  wavelength is shorter than the Schwarzschild radius of the wave which
> means that you get a tiny black hole and the wave can't propagate  *

*anywhere because it is stuck. This is called either a kugelblitz *


If spacetime is continuous then there there is always a discernible
different between 2 points regardless of how close together they are, but
if a kugelblitz always forms when you pack enough energy into a small
enough volume then there can't be a detectable difference between the 2
points and it would be meaningless to say spacetime is continuous. And a
kugelblitz can't form unless both Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity
always work the way current textbooks say they do, and everybody agrees
that at the center of a Black Hole at least one of those theories and
probably both breaks down.


>>>
>>> *>>>one final assumption which is that no two quantum
>>> harmonic  oscillators in our causal cell can vibrate with the exact
>>> same  frequency or have the same value of "n".*
>>
>>
>> >> That's true for Fermions like electrons protons and neutrons but not
>>  for Bosons like photons of light; any number of photons can be in
>>  the same quantum state.
>
>
> *>*
> *Well if dark energy were made of photons of light, then it probably
> wouldn't be so mysterious. *


If you assume spacetime is continuous then Dark Energy should be infinitely
strong. If we assume nothing can be smaller than the Planck Time or the
Planck Length things are a little better but not much, then Dark Energy is
not infinite but it would still cause the universe to accelerate 10^120
faster than what we observe.  So something is obviously very very wrong but
nobody knows what.


> *> Perhaps this is evidence that gravitons are fermions.*
>

Nobody has ever detected a graviton it's a purely theoretical construct but
if it exists it must have a spin of 2, and by definition bosons are
particles with integer spin and thus the graviton must be a Boson just like
all the other force carrying particles and be unaffected by the Pauli
Exclusion Principle so an infinite number of them can be in the same
quantum state.

John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 19:12:29 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 14:12:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Brain Death "paused"
In-Reply-To: <001a01d4e992$b58498d0$208dca70$@rainier66.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001a01d4e992$b58498d0$208dca70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CABf9QbAXvi2JeR6LJqMSXHbdHUW3OTedJnzLw45rBG5r75_BOQ@mail.gmail.com>

NatGeo has come out with an interesting article :

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/04/pig-brains-partially-revived-what-it-means-for-medicine-death-ethics/

"Scientists have restored cellular function in 32 pig brains that had been
dead for hours, opening up a new avenue in treating brain disease"

"Announced on Wednesday in the journal *Nature*, researchers at the Yale
University School of Medicine devised a system roughly analogous to a
dialysis machine, called BrainEx, that restores circulation and oxygen flow
to a dead brain."

"And technically, the pig brains remained dead?by design, the treated
brains did not show any signs of the organized electrical neural activity
required for awareness or consciousness.  "

Nature Article:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1099-1
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Apr 17 20:45:02 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:45:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] lc0 wins tournament
Message-ID: <006301d4f55e$6f9b59d0$4ed20d70$@rainier66.com>

 

This article is claiming that LeelaChess 0 taught itself to play chess using
online games and has won a major computer chess championship:

 

https://www.chess.com/news/view/lc0-wins-computer-chess-championship-makes-h
istory

 

The whole concept reminds me of a notion we used to kick around about 20 yrs
ago here: an AI emerges, goes into internet archives and learns about its
new subjects by reading our internet posts.

 

spike

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 22:54:53 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 18:54:53 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQvswCbdQxsFp79XSFqVvK4CUD9d7dshWkioL05Ej=t=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQvswCbdQxsFp79XSFqVvK4CUD9d7dshWkioL05Ej=t=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1cGbENP=oarNTb+9xPgo8oLH7AOEZnXBOjoiuoEU62Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:12 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

*> Assuming Weld loses, as is likely, what would be the damage if the LP
> both nominated someone and supported Weld? *
>

If the Libertarian Party is really sincere when they wax poetic about the
value of libertarian ideas then their number one priority should be
preventing the most anti-libertarian president in American history from
winning another general election. And, because there is only one person who
has a realistic chance of stopping Trump, that means supporting *ANY
FUNCTIONAL ADULT* the Democrats nominate and doing so with enthusiasm. Its
the least they can do after their disgraceful 2016 performance.


> *> The LP's nomination would presumably happen well after the Republican
> primaries, so these would be two separate contests.  And, the LP seems
> likely to draw off far more Republicans who don't like Trump but refuse to
> vote Democratic,*
>

If we lived in a rational world there might be some truth in that, but we
don't. It's hard to imagine 2 more different politicians than Donald Trump
and Bernie Sanders and yet 12% of the many millions of Sanders fans voted
for Trump in the general election, 5% did not vote at all and 10% did the
equivalent by voting for a third party nonentity.

I think that a substantial minority of voters want a candidate who has no
chance of winning, they hate Trump and fool themselves into thinking a vote
for Joe Nobody is a vote against him and, because they know he can't win,
they don't have to take responsibility for actions taken by somebody who
might actually win.

Currently there are about 20 people trying to get the Democratic nomination
and 19 of them will fail,  its inevitable that some fans of those 19 are
going to have hard feelings against the winner, most intensely hate Trump
so they won't vote for him but if they don't think it through they might
vote for Joe Nobody the Bozo Party candidate.


> *> than all other groups of voters combined - so if anything, they would
> deprive Trump of Electoral College votes.*
>

Although they will receive millions of popular votes I would bet money that
in 2020 third parties will get ten times as many electoral votes as they
did in 2016, and if I've performed the multiplication correctly that works
out to be precisely zero.

John K Clark




>
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Apr 17 23:30:08 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:30:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1cGbENP=oarNTb+9xPgo8oLH7AOEZnXBOjoiuoEU62Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQvswCbdQxsFp79XSFqVvK4CUD9d7dshWkioL05Ej=t=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1cGbENP=oarNTb+9xPgo8oLH7AOEZnXBOjoiuoEU62Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQCxVZaPwwmGTR+7M5JgqQHP9EcfPi514OW4ibtLznFJA@mail.gmail.com>

All that, and you missed the question that I actually asked.

By the time the LP can nominate someone, either Bill Weld will be out of
the running in which case the LP's nomination has no bearing on support of
Weld or lack thereof, or (somehow) he will have defeated Trump for the
Republican nomination in which case the LP's further impact on the election
is moot so far as defeating Trump goes.  (If the latter happens and Trump
does go martial law, the LP's further actions become irrelevant to the
matter of removing Trump from office.)

Thus, there seems to be no case in which the LP not nominating anyone would
help Weld defeat Trump.  However, you requested the LP not nominate anyone
and instead support Weld.  There does not seem to be any chain of events by
which these are mutually exclusive: first Weld gets defeated or not, with
the LP's support or not, and then the LP's nomination happens.

That being the case, how would the LP not nominating anyone help Weld?

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:59 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 12:12 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> Assuming Weld loses, as is likely, what would be the damage if the LP
>> both nominated someone and supported Weld? *
>>
>
> If the Libertarian Party is really sincere when they wax poetic about the
> value of libertarian ideas then their number one priority should be
> preventing the most anti-libertarian president in American history from
> winning another general election. And, because there is only one person who
> has a realistic chance of stopping Trump, that means supporting *ANY
> FUNCTIONAL ADULT* the Democrats nominate and doing so with enthusiasm.
> Its the least they can do after their disgraceful 2016 performance.
>
>
>> *> The LP's nomination would presumably happen well after the Republican
>> primaries, so these would be two separate contests.  And, the LP seems
>> likely to draw off far more Republicans who don't like Trump but refuse to
>> vote Democratic,*
>>
>
> If we lived in a rational world there might be some truth in that, but we
> don't. It's hard to imagine 2 more different politicians than Donald Trump
> and Bernie Sanders and yet 12% of the many millions of Sanders fans voted
> for Trump in the general election, 5% did not vote at all and 10% did the
> equivalent by voting for a third party nonentity.
>
> I think that a substantial minority of voters want a candidate who has no
> chance of winning, they hate Trump and fool themselves into thinking a vote
> for Joe Nobody is a vote against him and, because they know he can't win,
> they don't have to take responsibility for actions taken by somebody who
> might actually win.
>
> Currently there are about 20 people trying to get the Democratic
> nomination and 19 of them will fail,  its inevitable that some fans of
> those 19 are going to have hard feelings against the winner, most intensely
> hate Trump so they won't vote for him but if they don't think it through
> they might vote for Joe Nobody the Bozo Party candidate.
>
>
>> *> than all other groups of voters combined - so if anything, they would
>> deprive Trump of Electoral College votes.*
>>
>
> Although they will receive millions of popular votes I would bet money
> that in 2020 third parties will get ten times as many electoral votes as
> they did in 2016, and if I've performed the multiplication correctly that
> works out to be precisely zero.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 00:43:58 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:43:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Bill Weld
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQCxVZaPwwmGTR+7M5JgqQHP9EcfPi514OW4ibtLznFJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2FPPNTZc3qq91fNEbh8GTn424Q0ufxq5Mk23Wnv7Mwkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSx=sB5ZG-_VSafwnpCQJZBVkQ7WBUx+XmnvucrLd4uoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0gzEqZzufJ_OsSCT+QM8DH10ZnzuCX0tbQZuXC1TYakg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQvswCbdQxsFp79XSFqVvK4CUD9d7dshWkioL05Ej=t=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1cGbENP=oarNTb+9xPgo8oLH7AOEZnXBOjoiuoEU62Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQCxVZaPwwmGTR+7M5JgqQHP9EcfPi514OW4ibtLznFJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0dA8HLT=pYvzu154ovtPtGZMVTYH=Ha=WzpAP5q7ePpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 7:35 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:


> > there seems to be no case in which the LP not nominating anyone would
> help Weld defeat Trump.  However, you requested the LP not nominate anyone
> and instead support Weld.
>

I also said that after the 2016 debacle, which couldn't have happened
without them, the LP supporting any functional adult the Democrats nominate
and doing so with enthusiasm is the least they could do.  If they had
supported Clinton in 2016 she would probably have won and in 2020 they
could have nominated a candidate who had a real chance of winning, I'd vote
for the guy myself and I said that on this very list at the time. But it's
all ashes now and I will never vote Libertarian again or, it goes without
saying, Republican.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 12:39:10 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 08:39:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Brain Death "paused"
In-Reply-To: <CABf9QbAXvi2JeR6LJqMSXHbdHUW3OTedJnzLw45rBG5r75_BOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001a01d4e992$b58498d0$208dca70$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbAXvi2JeR6LJqMSXHbdHUW3OTedJnzLw45rBG5r75_BOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2hBeuz=aJo=hwGU1nCnZ+aMNyOLAaifW_xDnKMxZVs5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:18 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

> NatGeo has come out with an interesting article :
>
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/04/pig-brains-partially-revived-what-it-means-for-medicine-death-ethics/
>


"Scientists have restored cellular function in 32 pig brains that had been
> dead for hours, opening up a new avenue in treating brain disease"
>

The scientists involved said they were worried about the brain becoming
conscious 4 hours after the pigs were killed in a slaughterhouse, so in the
solution they pumped through the brain that provided oxygen sugars and
other nutrients they included a drug that inhibits organized 3D brain
activity. And they employed a bioethicist ready to administer an anesthetic
if they saw any sign of consciousness, which they didn't. Nobody knows what
would have happened if the inhibiting drug had not been used.

So although there was no sign of organized brain activity (and you wouldn't
expect to find any with that inhibiting drug used) the individual cells
regained metabolic activity and in the case of neurons electrical
activity.

 John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Thu Apr 18 15:18:31 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:18:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Brain Death "paused"
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2hBeuz=aJo=hwGU1nCnZ+aMNyOLAaifW_xDnKMxZVs5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904021449110.27290@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <001a01d4e992$b58498d0$208dca70$@rainier66.com>
 <CABf9QbAXvi2JeR6LJqMSXHbdHUW3OTedJnzLw45rBG5r75_BOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2hBeuz=aJo=hwGU1nCnZ+aMNyOLAaifW_xDnKMxZVs5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01A0199D-04FD-4920-A56E-1A6037647DE9@gmail.com>


> The scientists involved said they were worried about the brain becoming conscious 4 hours after the pigs were killed in a slaughterhouse, so in the solution they pumped through the brain that provided oxygen sugars and other nutrients they included a drug that inhibits organized 3D brain activity. And they employed a bioethicist ready to administer an anesthetic if they saw any sign of consciousness, which they didn't. Nobody knows what would have happened if the inhibiting drug had not been used. 
> 
> So although there was no sign of organized brain activity (and you wouldn't expect to find any with that inhibiting drug used) the individual cells regained metabolic activity and in the case of neurons electrical activity.  
> 
>  John K Clark

TBH, this article is one of the more exciting things I?ve read recently. Really makes me feel like we might be ?getting there? to make cryonics work. 

SR Ballard
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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Apr 19 04:05:55 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 21:05:55 -0700
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
Message-ID: <20190418210555.Horde.WOjdY1DETFNUFQLBjeNPV2o@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


John Clark wrote:


> With any sort of wave the longer the wavelength the less energy it
> contains, and you're talking about a wave almost as large as the observable
> universe.

Yes, that is exactly why it is the fundamental frequency of our causal  
space, because I could not think of a larger wave that could fit in  
our causal cell. And yes, it is extremely low energy wave but that is  
why it is the lowest possible energy state within our space-time i.e.  
the n=0 quantum ground state. The important thing is that it is not  
zero.

Also consider that a wave is more than just energy, it is also quantum  
information. The energy is like a place holder for the information.

>>> *I never claimed dark energy was electromagnetic in nature.*
>
>
> The mystery is not that Dark Energy exists but that it's so weak. It's been
> known for many years that electromagnetism should cause Dark Energy but the
> calculated strength is so huge the universe would accelerate so fast that a
> trillionth of a second after the Big Bang no proton would be closer than a
> billion light years from another proton. Needless to say that's not the
> universe we live in, it's been called the worse disagreement between theory
> and observation in the entire history of science.

I think that electromagnetic vacuum energy does cancel out to exactly  
zero, except as Casimir effects due to *very* local geometry, and Dark  
Energy is strictly gravitational vacuum energy instead of  
electromagnetism and that is why it is so comparatively weak. Wheeler  
called kugelblitzes made of gravitational waves instead of photons  
geons.

>> * > a maximum  frequency cutoff can exist even if space-time is
>> continuous. Consider  this: The shorter the wavelength of a wave, the
>> higher the frequency.  The higher the frequency of a wave, the higher the
>> energy of the wave.  The higher the energy of a wave, the more it bends its
>> surrounding  space-time. If the frequency exceeds 5.23*10^42 Hertz, then
>> the  wavelength is shorter than the Schwarzschild radius of the wave which
>> means that you get a tiny black hole and the wave can't propagate  anywhere
>> because it is stuck. This is called either a kugelblitz *
>
>
> If spacetime is continuous then there there is always a discernible
> different between 2 points regardless of how close together they are, but
> if a kugelblitz always forms when you pack enough energy into a small
> enough volume then there can't be a detectable difference between the 2
> points and it would be meaningless to say spacetime is continuous.

I have to admit that, by your logic, being able to calculate the  
observed gravitational vacuum energy density from first principles  
based on frequency cutoffs does raise the posterior probability that  
space-time is discrete.

> And a
> kugelblitz can't form unless both Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity
> always work the way current textbooks say they do, and everybody agrees
> that at the center of a Black Hole at least one of those theories and
> probably both breaks down.

Why do you you insist there is a center to a black hole but then turn  
around and deny that that there is a center to the universe? Just as  
the big bang happened "everywhere at once", so too does the  
singularity of a black hole if you are falling into it. It is not a  
place but is instead a time. A time that is in the past for universes  
and a time that is in the future for a black hole.

Universes and black holes are like 3-dimensional spaces wrapped around  
the time axis so like the perimeter of a circle or the surface of a  
sphere, they have no "center" even if the surface is expanding or  
contracting.

>
> If you assume spacetime is continuous then Dark Energy should be infinitely
> strong. If we assume nothing can be smaller than the Planck Time or the
> Planck Length things are a little better but not much, then Dark Energy is
> not infinite but it would still cause the universe to accelerate 10^120
> faster than what we observe.  So something is obviously very very wrong but
> nobody knows what.

I think that what is wrong is that people think that dark energy is an  
electromagnetic phenomenon when it is clearly gravitational instead.  
Gravity is 10^33 times weaker than electromagnetism. I suspect that  
electromagnetic quantum oscillators completely cancel each other out  
over long distances while while gravitational quantum harmonic  
oscillators do not.

>> *> Perhaps this is evidence that gravitons are fermions.*
>
> Nobody has ever detected a graviton it's a purely theoretical construct but
> if it exists it must have a spin of 2, and by definition bosons are
> particles with integer spin and thus the graviton must be a Boson just like
> all the other force carrying particles and be unaffected by the Pauli
> Exclusion Principle so an infinite number of them can be in the same
> quantum state.

Whatever these quantum gravitational harmonic oscillators are, they  
are not bosons therefore they are probably not gravitons. Could they  
be CDM particles then? Could CDM particles be fermions? If so, they  
seem like a good candidate for quantum gravitational harmonic  
oscillators.

Stuart LaForge




From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 19 17:50:33 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 10:50:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] blackholes@home
Message-ID: <003b01d4f6d8$63a05dd0$2ae11970$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Is this cool or what?

 

https://math.wvu.edu/~zetienne/SENR/

 

I have always found it crazy amazing how quickly that last little bit of
rotational energy bleeds away when two black holes collide.  If you do the I
* R * omega^2 calculation before the merger and after, we know how to
calculate the distance between the two black holes before collision (because
we know their masses and their rotational frequency) and we know how far
they had to fall inward, even a Newtonian guy can calculate how much energy
that was that just went away and (SURPRISE) it agrees with what the LIGO
people tell us.

 

But it is a crazy big amount of energy.

 

I confess to having been a flaming unbeliever, but now I found religion on
LIGO: that was the most important scientific instrument since Hubble, and in
some ways it was more informative than Hubble.

 

spike 

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Apr 19 17:52:06 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 10:52:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] blackholes@home
In-Reply-To: <003b01d4f6d8$63a05dd0$2ae11970$@rainier66.com>
References: <003b01d4f6d8$63a05dd0$2ae11970$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <004c01d4f6d8$9c050310$d40f0930$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I worded that first part incorrectly.  It isn't a little bit of rotational
energy, it's a huge amount of energy.

 

From: Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 10:51 AM
To: 'ExI chat list' <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: spike at rainier66.com
Subject: blackholes at home

 

 

 

Is this cool or what?

 

https://math.wvu.edu/~zetienne/SENR/

 

I have always found it crazy amazing how quickly that last little bit of
rotational energy bleeds away when two black holes collide.  If you do the I
* R * omega^2 calculation before the merger and after, we know how to
calculate the distance .

 

spike 

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From hibbard at wisc.edu  Fri Apr 19 20:31:24 2019
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 20:31:24 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

I recently had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla
Model 3 Dual Motor Performance. It's very tempting:
1. Self driving seems to work.
2. Very smart and helpful map display and other internal
    electronics.
3. Expensive to buy but cheap to operate.
4. Last but surely not least: performance equal to the
    fastest motorcycle I owned in my youth. Zero to 60
    in about 3 seconds without the noise and frantic gear
    shifting. Just pressed back in the seat and you're over
    the speed limit quicker than the reaction time of your
    foot on the accelerator.

While we're waiting for significant biological enhancement,
a vehicle can feel like an extension of your body. This
Tesla is a very seductive extension.

But, is buying a Tesla a good idea? Any advice?

Bill


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 22:09:17 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 17:09:17 -0500
Subject: [ExI] randall monroe
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZm=7V4sa7W+Vt-iHLB0FMdFAnK4pPdG3UfV9F76Ld-xw@mail.gmail.com>

Has a new book out:

How To - Absurd SCientific advice....

bill w
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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 23:01:45 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 19:01:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f=Wt9VbE-rc3wrBDwfM2kz7F4UgGm_=hZhSWAK-MexEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 4:35 PM Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:

> I recently had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla
> Model 3 Dual Motor Performance. It's very tempting:
> 1. Self driving seems to work.
>

"seems to work". Sure, trust your life to it. What could go wrong? :-)


> But, is buying a Tesla a good idea? Any advice?
>

 Last I heard, Consumer Reports recommended against the Model 3, in part
due to poor braking performance. I'd check with them before forking out
$80k.

-Dave
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 20 02:47:26 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 19:47:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <007601d4f723$64f8f3e0$2eeadba0$@rainier66.com>

Bill look around at the local used market, the 2 yr olds before you decide
to buy.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Bill Hibbard
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2019 1:31 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Cc: Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu>
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?

I recently had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor
Performance. It's very tempting:
1. Self driving seems to work.
2. Very smart and helpful map display and other internal
    electronics.
3. Expensive to buy but cheap to operate.
4. Last but surely not least: performance equal to the
    fastest motorcycle I owned in my youth. Zero to 60
    in about 3 seconds without the noise and frantic gear
    shifting. Just pressed back in the seat and you're over
    the speed limit quicker than the reaction time of your
    foot on the accelerator.

While we're waiting for significant biological enhancement, a vehicle can
feel like an extension of your body. This Tesla is a very seductive
extension.

But, is buying a Tesla a good idea? Any advice?

Bill

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 09:52:43 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 10:52:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How can a Black Hole spin?
Message-ID: <CAL_armiGh625Rt=FF8GGzw2-_bkun2uaZ6g-juFsSw5BOHJy_w@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting article as Ethan Siegel tackles several black hole questions.

"How is angular momentum conserved when stars collapse to black holes?
What does it mean for a black hole to spin?
What is actually spinning?
How can a singularity spin?
Is there a "speed limit" to this spin rate and how does the spin
affect the size of the event horizon and the area immediately around
it?"

<https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/04/20/ask-ethan-how-can-a-black-holes-singularity-spin/>

I won't spoil the article by quoting, but the conclusion reached at
the end is worth the effort.  :)

BillK

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 11:45:09 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 07:45:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <007601d4f723$64f8f3e0$2eeadba0$@rainier66.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <007601d4f723$64f8f3e0$2eeadba0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbL+_aCG0FyyniJ89wH=zyWMJjZZi=EyTxh0ZLidv5KYzA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:51 PM Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Bill look around at the local used market, the 2 yr olds before you decide
> to buy.
>

2 yr olds can't afford cars

Oh wait, you are suggesting instead if a Tesla that Bill buy an Oldsmobile?
He won't find one from 2 years ago,  that company went defunct in 2004.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Apr 20 14:01:36 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 07:01:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbL+_aCG0FyyniJ89wH=zyWMJjZZi=EyTxh0ZLidv5KYzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <007601d4f723$64f8f3e0$2eeadba0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAOJFdbL+_aCG0FyyniJ89wH=zyWMJjZZi=EyTxh0ZLidv5KYzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01d4f781$92ba9410$b82fbc30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 4:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?

 

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019, 10:51 PM Spike Jones <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

Bill look around at the local used market, the 2 yr olds before you decide
to buy.

 

2 yr olds can't afford cars

 

Oh wait, you are suggesting instead if a Tesla that Bill buy an Oldsmobile? He won't find one from 2 years ago,  that company went defunct in 2004.

 

 

 

 

 

?harrrrrarrarararararaararrrrr?

 

There is a local consignment lot with several Teslas on it.  I was surprised at how low the resale value was.  But now maybe they have the early bugs worked out.  I was considering a young low-mileage Tesla but haven?t bought one yet.  An all-electric is ideal for one who already has a dino-fuel rig for pulling a trailer (I do) and lives in a big suburb (I do.)  One?s trips don?t need to be long.  A 200 km range is plenty for what I need.  Then if I want to go cross country I take the truck.

 

spike

 

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 15:17:53 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 10:17:53 -0500
Subject: [ExI] laugh of the day
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjCn11BTF9--BywbFr87eTmcPuxDbNkYhC4nYvc-Mr+g@mail.gmail.com>

I answer a lot of questions on Quora.  Many of them are really dumb, but
this one is laugh out loud funny.

"How is society demonstrably better off for being technological?"

Should I say that making a better stone axe is technology in action?

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sat Apr 20 15:35:30 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 08:35:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] laugh of the day
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbjCn11BTF9--BywbFr87eTmcPuxDbNkYhC4nYvc-Mr+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbjCn11BTF9--BywbFr87eTmcPuxDbNkYhC4nYvc-Mr+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000659BA-1D8E-44B1-80A1-A5CB3360E309@gmail.com>

On Apr 20, 2019, at 8:17 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I answer a lot of questions on Quora.  Many of them are really dumb, but this one is laugh out loud funny.
> 
> "How is society demonstrably better off for being technological?"
> 
> Should I say that making a better stone axe is technology in action?

The ordinal question though isn?t about making a better one... I mean a stone axe is technology even if it?s never improved, no? It seems to me that technology preceded humans (depending on where one draws the line; were H. erectus humans?) anyhow, so there never were human societies without some technology. 

But maybe the questioner meant something like technology more advanced than, say, the Paleolithic toolkit. Anyhow, the answer seems obvious.

I wonder if many questions asked on Quora aren?t simply some lackadaisical student trying to write a high school essay and figuring that Quora might be a way to get someone else to do it for them.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Apr 20 20:14:44 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 13:14:44 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.68.1555728470.18670.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20190420131444.Horde.Gn77OmCaLlQOoOJNAphmB8H@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Bill Hibbert wrote:

> I recently had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor
> Performance. It's very tempting:
> 1. Self driving seems to work.
> 2. Very smart and helpful map display and other internal
>     electronics.
> 3. Expensive to buy but cheap to operate.
> 4. Last but surely not least: performance equal to the
>     fastest motorcycle I owned in my youth. Zero to 60
>     in about 3 seconds without the noise and frantic gear
>     shifting. Just pressed back in the seat and you're over
>     the speed limit quicker than the reaction time of your
>     foot on the accelerator.
>
> While we're waiting for significant biological enhancement, a vehicle can
> feel like an extension of your body. This Tesla is a very seductive
> extension.
>
> But, is buying a Tesla a good idea? Any advice?

If you do most of your driving in the city and have the money, then  
yes. Those things have driven drunk people home practically on their  
own. Not that you would need it for that purpose of course but they  
are feats of modern engineering in my opinion.  I would buy one if I  
could afford it. Half the hotels around here have free charging  
stations. Also the Kelley Book Book gives it 4.6 out of 5 stars as as  
an automobile in general.

https://www.kbb.com/tesla/model-3/

So why not?

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Apr 20 21:09:53 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 14:09:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] blackholes@home
Message-ID: <20190420140953.Horde.HOTt_ufAGBdwzLfiVBFE8kZ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Spike wrote:

> I have always found it crazy amazing how quickly that last little bit of
> rotational energy bleeds away when two black holes collide.  If you do the I
> * R * omega^2 calculation before the merger and after, we know how to
> calculate the distance between the two black holes before collision (because
> we know their masses and their rotational frequency) and we know how far
> they had to fall inward, even a Newtonian guy can calculate how much energy
> that was that just went away and (SURPRISE) it agrees with what the LIGO
> people tell us.

Yup. It's completely astonishing that two singularities can collide so  
quickly when they are supposedly zero-dimensional point masses that  
have no cross-sectional area. Of course if you believe that they are  
true point masses, they could still be orbiting one another after the  
black holes have merged. Since what happens in a black hole stays in a  
black hole, we would be none the wiser.

> I confess to having been a flaming unbeliever, but now I found religion on
> LIGO: that was the most important scientific instrument since Hubble, and in
> some ways it was more informative than Hubble.

Amen. LIGO is like an invention that created its own whole new  
category of technology. Like a retina for gravitational waves and its  
creating a whole new field of science. Gravitometry? Gravitometrics?  
Gravitoscopy? What do you even call it?

Stuart LaForge


From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Apr 21 04:48:31 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (Spike Jones)
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 21:48:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] blackholes@home
In-Reply-To: <20190420140953.Horde.HOTt_ufAGBdwzLfiVBFE8kZ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190420140953.Horde.HOTt_ufAGBdwzLfiVBFE8kZ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <010a01d4f7fd$7902cc00$6b086400$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge
Subject: Re: [ExI] blackholes at home


Spike wrote:

....

> I confess to having been a flaming unbeliever, but now I found 
> religion on
> LIGO: that was the most important scientific instrument since Hubble, 
> and in some ways it was more informative than Hubble.

Amen. LIGO is like an invention that created its own whole new category of
technology. Like a retina for gravitational waves and its creating a whole
new field of science. Gravitometry? Gravitometrics?  
Gravitoscopy? What do you even call it?

Stuart LaForge

_______________________________________________

I would call it just crazy cool.  Or call it an education in physics all by
itself.  Or me, I call it a lesson in humility: I thought I knew something
about the big bang, but my understanding of it would have ruled out this
many mergers this late in the day.

Regarding point masses, I have always treated it as equivalent to a mass the
size of the event horizon, then pretended that Newtonian physic still mostly
works outside that event horizon.  But Newtonian physics would not predict
two of these guys could spiral inward that quickly.  Conclusion: I suck.

spike




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Apr 21 17:25:38 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 13:25:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] First Picture of a Black Hole!
In-Reply-To: <20190418210555.Horde.WOjdY1DETFNUFQLBjeNPV2o@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190418210555.Horde.WOjdY1DETFNUFQLBjeNPV2o@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2cbE-G_O4QW8C-TTE7=4PwQ7PZPeBFq1A7tVtGPwY=kg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:12 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>* I think that electromagnetic vacuum energy does cancel out to
> exactly zero, except as Casimir effects due to *very* local geometry*


The electromagnetic field is not the only problem, when we try to calculate
the vacuum energy density cause by the Higgs field alone it comes out to
10^46 Joules per cubic meter if we assume spacetime is not continuous which
we must to avoid getting infinity. If you sum up all the vibrational modes
of all known fields using our best methods we calculate a value of
10^113 joules
per cubic meter, however the observed value for the vacuum energy is
10^-10 joules per cubic meter. So theory disagrees with observation by a
factor of 10^123 assuming spacetime is discrete (which there is no
evidence of) and it disagrees by infinity if spacetime is continuous.
Science has never made a worse prediction.

>
>
>
> *Whatever these quantum gravitational harmonic oscillators are, they  are
> not bosons therefore they are probably not gravitons. Could they  be CDM
> particles then? Could CDM particles be fermions? If so, they  seem like a
> good candidate for quantum gravitational harmonic  *


That sounds a little like Supersymmetry theory. The idea was that for every
fermion we know of there is a corresponding Boson we haven't found yet and
for every boson we know of there is a corresponding fermion we haven't
found yet. It that was true the vacuum energies should all cancel out and
sum up to exactly zero. But the LHC surprised everybody by not showing us
even the hint of a Supersymmetric particle, and now we don't want
everything to cancel out, we want everything to cancel out EXCEPT for one
part in 10^123. Nobody has a clue how to do that.

John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Apr 22 03:07:36 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 20:07:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wealth genes
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7dDoXTuwwGmg1abHCD3cGEGcQtegG1j2rUXw1c6_9xGQ@mail.gmail.com>

 "An analysis of 286,000 Britons showed that the genetic make-up of those
who earned over ?100,000 differed from those on low incomes."

" A scan pointed to 24 ?golden genes? that affect intelligence, the immune
system, and the strength of muscles and heart ? and so can make the
difference"

Keith
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr 22 03:36:07 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 20:36:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Wealth genes
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7dDoXTuwwGmg1abHCD3cGEGcQtegG1j2rUXw1c6_9xGQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7dDoXTuwwGmg1abHCD3cGEGcQtegG1j2rUXw1c6_9xGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000e01d4f8bc$858234b0$90869e10$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Keith Henson
Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2019 8:08 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Wealth genes

 

"An analysis of 286,000 Britons showed that the genetic make-up of those who earned over ?100,000 differed from those on low incomes."

 

" A scan pointed to 24 ?golden genes? that affect intelligence, the immune system, and the strength of muscles and heart ? and so can make the difference"

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey cool, now we can select embryos which have lots of those genes.  Eventually we get a healthier, wealthier, wiser world.

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 22 18:57:40 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:57:40 -0500
Subject: [ExI] used Tesla for sale
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaUGZFbmi+8EGiopB57dQ__k6FzwS1OkAvOx1pnKg5qjg@mail.gmail.com>

Pick up the pieces in the garage and you have a cheap Tesla

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/22/tesla-investigates-video-of-model-s-car-exploding
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Apr 22 19:12:49 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:12:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] used Tesla for sale
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaUGZFbmi+8EGiopB57dQ__k6FzwS1OkAvOx1pnKg5qjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEaUGZFbmi+8EGiopB57dQ__k6FzwS1OkAvOx1pnKg5qjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008401d4f93f$610bb4c0$23231e40$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 11:58 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] used Tesla for sale

 

Pick up the pieces in the garage and you have a cheap Tesla

 

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/22/tesla-investigates-video-of-model-s-car-exploding 

 

 

 

Do we have any lithium battery hipsters who can comment on this?

 

spike

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Apr 22 20:37:58 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:37:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
Message-ID: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Nick Bostrom argues in a new paper that the world is not prepared for
the development of an easily-accessible creation that could cause the
destruction of modern civilization.

How to Protect Humanity From the Invention That Inadvertently Kills Us All
What happens if we keep opening Pandora's box?
By Mike Brown on April 18, 2019

<https://www.inverse.com/article/55024-nick-bostrom-how-to-protect-humans-from-the-invention-that-will-kill-us>

Quotes:
Bostrom proposes two key systems.

The first would require stronger global governance which goes further
than the current international system. This would enable states to
agree to outlaw the use of the technology quickly enough to avert
total catastrophe, because the international community could move
faster than it has been able to in the past. Bostrom suggests in his
paper that such a government could also retain nuclear weapons to
protect against an outbreak or serious breach.

The second system is more dystopian, and would require significantly
more surveillance than humans are used to. Bostrom describes a kind of
?freedom tag,? fitted to everyone that transmits encrypted audio and
video that spots signs of undesirable behavior. This would be
necessary, he argues, future governance systems to preemptively
intervene before a potentially history-altering crime is committed.
The paper notes that if every tag cost $140, it would cost less than
one percent of global gross domestic product to fit everyone with the
tag and potentially avoid a species-ending event.

It is a chilling set of proposals, particularly in a post-Snowden
world. Perhaps the best response is to simply hope that humanity never
discovers an easily-accessible technology that would require such a
heavy-handed response.
------------

Another reason for the Great Silence?

BillK


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 22 21:10:18 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 14:10:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7EB4817A-44CB-48FA-8285-392CAB70D500@gmail.com>

> On Apr 22, 2019, at 1:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Nick Bostrom argues in a new paper that the world is not prepared for
> the development of an easily-accessible creation that could cause the
> destruction of modern civilization.
> 
> How to Protect Humanity From the Invention That Inadvertently Kills Us All
> What happens if we keep opening Pandora's box?
> By Mike Brown on April 18, 2019
> 
> <https://www.inverse.com/article/55024-nick-bostrom-how-to-protect-humans-from-the-invention-that-will-kill-us>
> 
> Quotes:
> Bostrom proposes two key systems.
> 
> The first would require stronger global governance which goes further
> than the current international system. This would enable states to
> agree to outlaw the use of the technology quickly enough to avert
> total catastrophe, because the international community could move
> faster than it has been able to in the past. Bostrom suggests in his
> paper that such a government could also retain nuclear weapons to
> protect against an outbreak or serious breach.
> 
> The second system is more dystopian, and would require significantly
> more surveillance than humans are used to. Bostrom describes a kind of
> ?freedom tag,? fitted to everyone that transmits encrypted audio and
> video that spots signs of undesirable behavior. This would be
> necessary, he argues, future governance systems to preemptively
> intervene before a potentially history-altering crime is committed.
> The paper notes that if every tag cost $140, it would cost less than
> one percent of global gross domestic product to fit everyone with the
> tag and potentially avoid a species-ending event.
> 
> It is a chilling set of proposals, particularly in a post-Snowden
> world. Perhaps the best response is to simply hope that humanity never
> discovers an easily-accessible technology that would require such a
> heavy-handed response.
> ------------
> 
> Another reason for the Great Silence?
> 
> BillK

To save humanity, one has to imprison it? Sounds like a recipe for turn-key despotism. And one imagines this would quickly evolve into the tyranny of the majority. Think of how careers are wrecked now with social media. Then think what would?ve happened to, say, sexually unconventional people of this surveillance regime were in place circa 1950.

By the way, on a related note:

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/mobile/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780190201159.001.0001/acprof-9780190201159

TL; DR: it seems that keeping a low profile makes for progress in civil rights and basic respect. How that applied here: total surveillance would make reaction to such progress more swift and likely to have much more momentum.

Wouldn?t a much better approach be to seed humans (or posthumans) around the solar system and beyond? Then there?s no integrated biosphere that might be compromised that would lead to civilization collapse or an extinction event... Also, humans (or posthumans) off Earth might be able to carry out a rescue or reset if Earth has a catastrophe. (Haven?t yet read Bostrom?s paper, so if he covers all this, my apologies.)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From jrd1415 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 01:59:34 2019
From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 19:59:34 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Fermi paradox alive and well
Message-ID: <CAHUTwkO=vFwXgcPHZKcOCO=e5zhOzaiVJCsxGFbEUCc6ifncuA@mail.gmail.com>

A pleasant good morning to all of  my Extropian fiends,  .

I noticed the discussion of the Fermi Paradox a while back, a subject that
never disappoints. It's one of my favorites, and I would have joined in,
but I got lazy.      Then today I happened to run across this YouTube
video, and so I decided, "Well heck, let 'er rip."

Here's the video, Gordon Cooper talking about his encounters with UFOs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cvzQH5sG04

Since Cooper's a pretty reliable guy, it'd be tough to make his report out
to be a hoax.

I had a chat with a friend recently and mentioned that it seemed to be the
default position that UFOs don't exist. The Fermi Paradox itself
***presumes*** this with the question "Then, where are they?"   And it
seems like everyone just continues with the presumption, kind of sort of
like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"   We've had thousands of
sightings by completely ordinary -- which is to say "non-whacko" -- people,
and bunches of claimed abductions, and yet we always start out with "Then
where are they?", studiously ignoring the abundance of unexplained yet
undeniable "events".

I think we've all banded together, and held tightly to the "We're alone in
the universe" notion, out of a long habit of not wanting to be considered
nut jobs.  Which might very well have been "reasonable" early on.  Being
considered a nutcase might very well cause you problems in your real life.
But now, after thousands of unexplained UFO incidents, it is no longer a
reasonable excuse.

It should be entirely reasonable at this point to assume that the universe
is chock full of intelligent life, that they come round to visit on a
regular basis.  Consequently, it is no longer unreasonable to accept the
possibility of abundant alien life in the universe, and that on that basis
the question is just "Why do they refuse to communicate with us?"

But no that's not the way it is. We continue to stick with the notion that
either we're alone in the universe, the first and only intelligent life, or
that if there is other intelligent life out there, we've never seen them.

I'm sorry, this doesn't work for me.  Not any more.  The thousands of
sightings, the multiple reports of abductions, the physical examinations,
the anal probes, the multiple reports of the blue light that paralyzes, the
"expunged" memories that can only be extracted with hypnosis, Betty and
Barney Hill, the Nazca lines and "art", the surgically-precise cattle
"mutilations" with no blood or footprints nearby,...

So, I'm thinking it's time to give up the old default view, fueled by the
fear of being considered a nut job, and embrace that third possibility:
they're all over the damn place, but for some reason they just don't want
to talk to us.

Now, a couple more data points.

A couple of years back, thinking about this, I realized that a nuclear
explosion gives off a unique electromagnetic signature that is a clear
indication of technically-advanced intelligent life.  No natural phenomenon
would cause that "flash". Consequently, every nuclear explosion since
Alamogordo has sent out into the universe a little flash that says
"Technically-advanced intelligent life is happening here." And while we
might very well have been visited by aliens before the nuclear era, the
nuclear era had created a flashing "neon sign" for the entire universe to
see, and thus provoke more "traffic".  When this idea first came to me I
thought, well, how likely would it be for alien observers to notice a
couple of random flashing blips? What I failed to realize was how very many
"flashing blips" the various nuclear powers had actually "flashed".

Then, a couple of days ago, I came across this:

A Time-Lapse Map of Every Nuclear Explosion Since 1945 - by Isao Hashimoto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY

Holy crap!  Humanity has been sending out a veritable electromagnetic
symphony.

And then finally this rather bizarre data point.

Anyone who's followed the UFO business is likely to have heard of the "anal
probe". When I heard of it, it pretty much settled the issue for me.
Clearly the abductees wackos with some underlying sexual weirdness which
caused them to have some sort of repressed anal sexual thingy going on.
And on that basis I dismissed all the abduction stuff as nonsense.

But then about a year ago I began to study up on the microbiome, an
emerging area of intense medical interest and research.  And so, one day,
out of the blue, it hit me like a flash, that those aliens who abducted
people to examine and analyze scientifically/medically, taking germ tissue
samples and other tissue samples, would absolutely want to take a sample of
their microbiome as well.   Which explains perfectly the anal probe. And
with that observation, the credibility/legitimacy of the abduction reports
was reinstated with a vengeance.

Aliens would not have to travel to other planets to study physics or
chemistry. But biological diversity throughout the universe would certainly
provide motivation for coming to places where life had been detected, and
cataloging the genetic data from forms of life found there and nowhere
else.  Without knowing exactly how, that data might very well be of great
value.

 That's it. Enjoy.  Glad to get that off my chest.

          "Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
                                                Ray Charles
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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Apr 23 05:27:13 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 22:27:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


BillK wrote:


> Nick Bostrom argues in a new paper that the world is not prepared for
> the development of an easily-accessible creation that could cause the
> destruction of modern civilization.


Mankind has hundreds of millennia of practice destroying things. All  
the easy ways to kill and destroy have largely been mastered already.  
I am not going to lose sleep worrying that some budding young genius  
somewhere is going to figure out a way to uncouple matfrom the Higg's  
field by using only his cell phone, a pocket-knife, and bubblegum.

Furthermore, While it is the nature of civilizations to rise and fall  
in their own time, relative to previous eras, modern civilization is  
unusually robust. This is because it is so wide-spread and  
diversified. Embodied as multiple self-organized nation-states, all  
using different governance strategies, it is nearly inconceivable that  
all of modern civilization could be destroyed by any easily-accessible  
technology.


> How to Protect Humanity From the Invention That Inadvertently Kills Us All
> What happens if we keep opening Pandora's box?

Nothing. The myth of Pandora's box is very clear that upon opening the  
box once, all the ills packed in box by the gods escaped the box and  
afflicted humanity. Therefore opening the box again would have no  
additional effect. Furthermore Pandora's box was designed as a  
punishment for mankind for accepting the fire of the gods bestowed  
upon man by Prometheus who was himself punished by Zeus by having his  
liver eaten on a daily basis by Zeus' eagle. So in short, the fire of  
the gods has been bought and paid for by the suffering of men and  
titans alike. I refuse to give up fire because the people who think  
they run things are afraid.

Fear manufactured to justify tyranny is the only invention we need  
worry about.

> <https://www.inverse.com/article/55024-nick-bostrom-how-to-protect-humans-from-the-invention-that-will-kill-us>
>
> Quotes:
> Bostrom proposes two key systems.
>
> The first would require stronger global governance which goes further
> than the current international system. This would enable states to
> agree to outlaw the use of the technology quickly enough to avert
> total catastrophe, because the international community could move
> faster than it has been able to in the past. Bostrom suggests in his
> paper that such a government could also retain nuclear weapons to
> protect against an outbreak or serious breach.

A one-world government deciding who gets to use what technology does  
not make us safer, it just puts all our eggs in one basket. A stupid,  
slow, often irrational, and sometimes downright malign basket.

> The second system is more dystopian, and would require significantly
> more surveillance than humans are used to. Bostrom describes a kind of
> ?freedom tag,? fitted to everyone that transmits encrypted audio and
> video that spots signs of undesirable behavior. This would be
> necessary, he argues, future governance systems to preemptively
> intervene before a potentially history-altering crime is committed.
> The paper notes that if every tag cost $140, it would cost less than
> one percent of global gross domestic product to fit everyone with the
> tag and potentially avoid a species-ending event.

No. Absolutely not. Any attempt by ANY government to tag me like some  
sort of cattle will result in MUCH bloodshed. I am an American who was  
born free and I would rather die than submit to tyranny. This is  
non-negotiable. When did Bostrom start subscribing to totalitarian  
authoritarianism. Did he join the Alt Right Endarkenment?

Any government that fears its citizenry this much is not worthy to  
govern. Paranoia is the last refuge of tyrants and is often the very  
thing that causes the people to rise up and overthrow that tyrant.  
Just ask Caligula. In this regard, Bostrom's so-called "freedom tag"  
might very well be the invention that causes the fall of civilization  
or the government at the least. I could never condone this, not even  
if I was the one who got to decide who got to use what technology.

> It is a chilling set of proposals, particularly in a post-Snowden
> world. Perhaps the best response is to simply hope that humanity never
> discovers an easily-accessible technology that would require such a
> heavy-handed response.

Maybe instead stooping to such despicable depths to preserve the power  
and privilege of the elite, we should focus on building  civilization  
that doesn't allow the few to oppress the many; a civilization that  
everybody feels they have a stake in and so nobody would want to  
destroy. Why would anyone want to live in a civilization so odious  
that people have to be constantly watched to prevent them from  
destroying it? Is being the monkey on the highest branch really worth  
all that?

> Another reason for the Great Silence?

Do you mean elitist nanny-state politics? Possibly. Or maybe ET just  
doesn't have anything worth spending so much energy to say.

Stuart LaForge






From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 16:32:14 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:32:14 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Fermi paradox alive and well
In-Reply-To: <CAHUTwkO=vFwXgcPHZKcOCO=e5zhOzaiVJCsxGFbEUCc6ifncuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUTwkO=vFwXgcPHZKcOCO=e5zhOzaiVJCsxGFbEUCc6ifncuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0j5Y8OpnTE+4GY5BP7NR0YzCop-EOZySGA=C8jgWGz=A@mail.gmail.com>

I've seen Unidentified Flying Objects, that is to say I've seen flying
objects that I couldn't identify, hell I've even seen things sitting on the
ground right next to me I could not identify. But flying saucer fans claim
UFO's do not exist because none are unidentified, they've identified them
all, they're spaceships driven by people from other planets who travel
thousands or millions of light years and then, as Douglas Adams put it they:

*"find some isolated spot and land in view of a lone observer. They then
strut around wearing antennas on their heads and making beep beep noises,
knowing full well that no one will ever believe the poor person."*

As for me I find ET's obsession with sticking things up people's asses a
little odd, and I think eyewitness testimony is the very weakest sort of
evidence.

John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 16:36:23 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:36:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Astrophysical detection of the helium hydride ion HeH+
Message-ID: <FABCB1C2-D672-4A79-980A-74140AAF125C@gmail.com>

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1090-x

Supposedly, the first chemical interaction that took place after the Big Bang, though the stuff found this detection is of more recent vintage. ;)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 19:37:36 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 20:37:36 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgFmy==SnELzBKcZo3y9eNByUOy3hQ3BPv8=YMVawFhgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mankind has hundreds of millennia of practice destroying things. All
> the easy ways to kill and destroy have largely been mastered already.
> I am not going to lose sleep worrying that some budding young genius
> somewhere is going to figure out a way to uncouple matfrom the Higg's
> field by using only his cell phone, a pocket-knife, and bubblegum.
>
> Furthermore, While it is the nature of civilizations to rise and fall
> in their own time, relative to previous eras, modern civilization is
> unusually robust. This is because it is so wide-spread and
> diversified. Embodied as multiple self-organized nation-states, all
> using different governance strategies, it is nearly inconceivable that
> all of modern civilization could be destroyed by any easily-accessible
> technology.
>
>

Nick Bostrom and his staff at University of Oxford?s Future of
Humanity Institute specialise in thinking about existential threats to
humanity. He is 'future-thinking' about possible threats and possible
solutions. (So no need to panic just yet).  :)
Current terrorist / deranged human weapons so far are conventional but
can still cause much death and destruction. All governments are
increasing population surveillance in an attempt to detect these
groups / individuals before they cause harm.
Bostrom is quite reasonably extrapolating present activities into the future.

It does seem likely that weapons (of all types) will become more
powerful and more widely available. Also that surveillance will
increase.
Both developments are too attractive to those involved.


BillK

> > How to Protect Humanity From the Invention That Inadvertently Kills Us All
> > What happens if we keep opening Pandora's box?
>
> Nothing. The myth of Pandora's box is very clear that upon opening the
> box once, all the ills packed in box by the gods escaped the box and
> afflicted humanity. Therefore opening the box again would have no
> additional effect. Furthermore Pandora's box was designed as a
> punishment for mankind for accepting the fire of the gods bestowed
> upon man by Prometheus who was himself punished by Zeus by having his
> liver eaten on a daily basis by Zeus' eagle. So in short, the fire of
> the gods has been bought and paid for by the suffering of men and
> titans alike. I refuse to give up fire because the people who think
> they run things are afraid.
>
> Fear manufactured to justify tyranny is the only invention we need
> worry about.
>
> > <https://www.inverse.com/article/55024-nick-bostrom-how-to-protect-humans-from-the-invention-that-will-kill-us>
> >
> > Quotes:
> > Bostrom proposes two key systems.
> >
> > The first would require stronger global governance which goes further
> > than the current international system. This would enable states to
> > agree to outlaw the use of the technology quickly enough to avert
> > total catastrophe, because the international community could move
> > faster than it has been able to in the past. Bostrom suggests in his
> > paper that such a government could also retain nuclear weapons to
> > protect against an outbreak or serious breach.
>
> A one-world government deciding who gets to use what technology does
> not make us safer, it just puts all our eggs in one basket. A stupid,
> slow, often irrational, and sometimes downright malign basket.
>
> > The second system is more dystopian, and would require significantly
> > more surveillance than humans are used to. Bostrom describes a kind of
> > ?freedom tag,? fitted to everyone that transmits encrypted audio and
> > video that spots signs of undesirable behavior. This would be
> > necessary, he argues, future governance systems to preemptively
> > intervene before a potentially history-altering crime is committed.
> > The paper notes that if every tag cost $140, it would cost less than
> > one percent of global gross domestic product to fit everyone with the
> > tag and potentially avoid a species-ending event.
>
> No. Absolutely not. Any attempt by ANY government to tag me like some
> sort of cattle will result in MUCH bloodshed. I am an American who was
> born free and I would rather die than submit to tyranny. This is
> non-negotiable. When did Bostrom start subscribing to totalitarian
> authoritarianism. Did he join the Alt Right Endarkenment?
>
> Any government that fears its citizenry this much is not worthy to
> govern. Paranoia is the last refuge of tyrants and is often the very
> thing that causes the people to rise up and overthrow that tyrant.
> Just ask Caligula. In this regard, Bostrom's so-called "freedom tag"
> might very well be the invention that causes the fall of civilization
> or the government at the least. I could never condone this, not even
> if I was the one who got to decide who got to use what technology.
>
> > It is a chilling set of proposals, particularly in a post-Snowden
> > world. Perhaps the best response is to simply hope that humanity never
> > discovers an easily-accessible technology that would require such a
> > heavy-handed response.
>
> Maybe instead stooping to such despicable depths to preserve the power
> and privilege of the elite, we should focus on building  civilization
> that doesn't allow the few to oppress the many; a civilization that
> everybody feels they have a stake in and so nobody would want to
> destroy. Why would anyone want to live in a civilization so odious
> that people have to be constantly watched to prevent them from
> destroying it? Is being the monkey on the highest branch really worth
> all that?
>
> > Another reason for the Great Silence?
>
> Do you mean elitist nanny-state politics? Possibly. Or maybe ET just
> doesn't have anything worth spending so much energy to say.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 19:58:13 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:58:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgFmy==SnELzBKcZo3y9eNByUOy3hQ3BPv8=YMVawFhgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armgFmy==SnELzBKcZo3y9eNByUOy3hQ3BPv8=YMVawFhgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2268A9A1-E66B-4F92-945E-A42A54D21DA7@gmail.com>

On Apr 23, 2019, at 12:37 PM, BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Mankind has hundreds of millennia of practice destroying things. All
>> the easy ways to kill and destroy have largely been mastered already.
>> I am not going to lose sleep worrying that some budding young genius
>> somewhere is going to figure out a way to uncouple matfrom the Higg's
>> field by using only his cell phone, a pocket-knife, and bubblegum.
>> 
>> Furthermore, While it is the nature of civilizations to rise and fall
>> in their own time, relative to previous eras, modern civilization is
>> unusually robust. This is because it is so wide-spread and
>> diversified. Embodied as multiple self-organized nation-states, all
>> using different governance strategies, it is nearly inconceivable that
>> all of modern civilization could be destroyed by any easily-accessible
>> technology.
> 
> Nick Bostrom and his staff at University of Oxford?s Future of
> Humanity Institute specialise in thinking about existential threats to
> humanity. He is 'future-thinking' about possible threats and possible
> solutions. (So no need to panic just yet).  :)
> Current terrorist / deranged human weapons so far are conventional but
> can still cause much death and destruction. All governments are
> increasing population surveillance in an attempt to detect these
> groups / individuals before they cause harm.
> Bostrom is quite reasonably extrapolating present activities into the future.

I still have yet to read the paper, but my initial fear would be that this would be a quick fix that might be far worse than thing it?s trying to fix in the long run. It could easily result in a surveillance regime that simply quashes all non-conformity ? even stopping research because it might end up being dual use.

> It does seem likely that weapons (of all types) will become more
> powerful and more widely available. Also that surveillance will
> increase.
> Both developments are too attractive to those involved.

I agree about the attractiveness, but one thing that?s interesting, perhaps, is the level of (non-state*) terrorism appears to be low. Still one can imagine a lone person getting a hold of some biological or nanotechnological agent then releasing it. Perhaps another reason to be careful with assigning likelihoods to such threats is that despite having NBC weapons now and despite much of them being decades behind the cutting edge, there haven?t been any non-state N attacks and very few B or C ones.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

* I do count things like the war in Yemen as state terrorism. Ergo the qualifier.

From hibbard at wisc.edu  Tue Apr 23 21:46:36 2019
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 21:46:36 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

Bostrom propose a surveillance infrastructure to
protect us from dangers such as easily accessible
bioweapons. However, such an infrastructure, using
AI connected via the Internet to the physical
devices of our daily lives including implanted
electronics, presents a strong temptation of social
control to leaders.

This is most evident in China. I think they have
already passed the tipping point toward a future
when every citizen will agree with the government on
every issue. Total control.

In the US and other countries, leaders and even
ordinary citizens are calling for the use of AI to
detect and control dangerous speech and "fake news."

While I do fear easily accessible bioweapons, social
surveillance and control is the "black ball" I fear
most, because it is so tempting to the people with
the most power.

The future of humanity may be a world partitioned
into AI data domains (largely coinciding with the
partition into nations), with leaders in each
partition exercising total surveillance and control
via AI and the Internet. I think the best resistance
to this future is complete transparency of AI and
associated infrastructure.


From pharos at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 22:37:58 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 23:37:58 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 22:53, Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:
>
> Bostrom propose a surveillance infrastructure to
> protect us from dangers such as easily accessible
> bioweapons. However, such an infrastructure, using
> AI connected via the Internet to the physical
> devices of our daily lives including implanted
> electronics, presents a strong temptation of social
> control to leaders.
>
> This is most evident in China. I think they have
> already passed the tipping point toward a future
> when every citizen will agree with the government on
> every issue. Total control.
>
> In the US and other countries, leaders and even
> ordinary citizens are calling for the use of AI to
> detect and control dangerous speech and "fake news."
>
> While I do fear easily accessible bioweapons, social
> surveillance and control is the "black ball" I fear
> most, because it is so tempting to the people with
> the most power.
>
> The future of humanity may be a world partitioned
> into AI data domains (largely coinciding with the
> partition into nations), with leaders in each
> partition exercising total surveillance and control
> via AI and the Internet. I think the best resistance
> to this future is complete transparency of AI and
> associated infrastructure.
>

Quote:
The new paper from Bostrom introduces the concept of a vulnerable
world : roughly, one in which there is some level of technological
development at which civilization almost certainly gets devastated by
default.
--------

It is controlling the advanced technology that is the problem. Whether
misused by rogue states or groups or individuals.
It is difficult to see how this control can be achieved in a world
where states are seeking to gain decisive advantage and others are
resisting.
The AI 'Hive-mind' civilisation might be the only survivable route.


BillK

From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 23:08:28 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQH2i6hc30=wNdz9ZES8KkqUWCZ4uKCxbRcL7__=J9ERg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 3:42 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> Quote:
> The new paper from Bostrom introduces the concept of a vulnerable
> world : roughly, one in which there is some level of technological
> development at which civilization almost certainly gets devastated by
> default.
> --------
>
> It is controlling the advanced technology that is the problem. Whether
> misused by rogue states or groups or individuals.
> It is difficult to see how this control can be achieved in a world
> where states are seeking to gain decisive advantage and others are
> resisting.
> The AI 'Hive-mind' civilisation might be the only survivable route.
>

In all the fear of wild, unfettered destructive technology, is there no
consideration of wild, unfettered constructive technology?  Just last week
I was at a space tech conference wherein I had multiple conversations that
could fairly be summarized as, "What happens (legally, or with respect to
various government or private programs) if we send mostly automated,
self-replicating to a convenient extent, construction bots to the Moon and
have them set up human habitation?"

Relevant to this topic, would such efforts (if done outside the control of
government elites directly profiting from it) not be seen, objected to, and
shut down by a government with total surveillance just the same as a
terrorist building weapons?  To give but one example of specific harm that
the proposed change would bring about.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 23 23:09:31 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:09:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbYKL0De7Z1HQZzKxJTHmdxpMjd5qkj3njLuJpJ3cX=Kw@mail.gmail.com>

I have my doubts that any state could effectively cut off their people from
world news.  Techies everywhere can hack satellite signals, or bypass the
censors on their version of the Web.  Can't they?

bill w

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:42 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 22:53, Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Bostrom propose a surveillance infrastructure to
> > protect us from dangers such as easily accessible
> > bioweapons. However, such an infrastructure, using
> > AI connected via the Internet to the physical
> > devices of our daily lives including implanted
> > electronics, presents a strong temptation of social
> > control to leaders.
> >
> > This is most evident in China. I think they have
> > already passed the tipping point toward a future
> > when every citizen will agree with the government on
> > every issue. Total control.
> >
> > In the US and other countries, leaders and even
> > ordinary citizens are calling for the use of AI to
> > detect and control dangerous speech and "fake news."
> >
> > While I do fear easily accessible bioweapons, social
> > surveillance and control is the "black ball" I fear
> > most, because it is so tempting to the people with
> > the most power.
> >
> > The future of humanity may be a world partitioned
> > into AI data domains (largely coinciding with the
> > partition into nations), with leaders in each
> > partition exercising total surveillance and control
> > via AI and the Internet. I think the best resistance
> > to this future is complete transparency of AI and
> > associated infrastructure.
> >
>
> Quote:
> The new paper from Bostrom introduces the concept of a vulnerable
> world : roughly, one in which there is some level of technological
> development at which civilization almost certainly gets devastated by
> default.
> --------
>
> It is controlling the advanced technology that is the problem. Whether
> misused by rogue states or groups or individuals.
> It is difficult to see how this control can be achieved in a world
> where states are seeking to gain decisive advantage and others are
> resisting.
> The AI 'Hive-mind' civilisation might be the only survivable route.
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Apr 24 01:04:38 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:04:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <mailman.70.1555984804.18670.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20190423180438.Horde.RHdTChb-bgNP9ZnaBt_0sql@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Dan Ust wrote:

> Wouldn?t a much better approach be to seed humans (or posthumans)  
> around the solar system and beyond? Then there?s no integrated  
> biosphere that might be compromised that would lead to civilization  
> collapse or an extinction event... Also, humans (or posthumans) off  
> Earth might be able to carry out a rescue or reset if Earth has a  
> catastrophe.

Yes. This is a much better plan to safeguard humanity's legacy than  
creating a totalitarian world-government that spies on everybody and  
disappears people who do or say the wrong thing or release too much  
carbon into the atmosphere.

> (Haven?t yet read Bostrom?s paper, so if he covers all this, my apologies.)

No. So convinced is he that a monolithic world government with the  
power to spy on people and peremptorily deprive them of life and  
liberty is the answer to all the world's problems that colonizing  off  
world  doesn't even occur to him.

Here is his paper. The meat of his arguments are based on speculative  
thought experiments premised on counterfactual "what ifs" like "what  
if you could make nukes out of ordinary materials" as the basis for  
suggesting reverting the state of human rights back to the dark ages.  
It's almost as if Stalin commissioned him to write the paper to  
justify the purges. Far from Bostrom's best work in my opinion.

https://nickbostrom.com/papers/vulnerable.pdf

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Apr 24 03:05:21 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 20:05:21 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <1525374971.2354371.1556069913427@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armgFmy==SnELzBKcZo3y9eNByUOy3hQ3BPv8=YMVawFhgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1525374971.2354371.1556069913427@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20190423200521.Horde.BSXgpV6RpOysHBcDPvUMLuF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


BillK wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>> Mankind has hundreds of millennia of practice destroying things. All
>> the easy ways to kill and destroy have largely been mastered already.
>> I am not going to lose sleep worrying that some budding young genius
>> somewhere is going to figure out a way to uncouple matter from the Higg's
>> field by using only his cell phone, a pocket-knife, and bubblegum.

>
> Nick Bostrom and his staff at University of Oxford?s Future of
> Humanity Institute specialise in thinking about existential threats to
> humanity. He is 'future-thinking' about possible threats and possible
> solutions. (So no need to panic just yet).? :)

I am well aware of who Nick Bostrom is and up until this last piece  
thought his writings were rather unconventional, thought-provoking,  
and extropic.

> Current terrorist / deranged human weapons so far are conventional but
> can still cause much death and destruction. All governments are
> increasing population surveillance in an attempt to detect these
> groups / individuals before they cause harm.
> Bostrom is quite reasonably extrapolating present activities into the future.

He is also giving the governments of the world his validation to keep  
doing more of the same. Encouraging them to institute increasingly  
draconian measures on all of their citizens (or maybe just most) in  
order to control for the potential actions of a very few. The  
governments are perpetrating a great injustice in doing this and  
justice is one of the primary PURPOSES of government in the first place.

> It does seem likely that weapons (of all types) will become more
> powerful and more widely available. Also that surveillance will
> increase.
> Both developments are too attractive to those involved.

Which is why I object to Bostrom further encouraging what is already a  
bad situation. There is more to the solution space of this problem  
than simply doing what the government has wanted to do all along.

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Apr 24 03:06:34 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 20:06:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <1525374971.2354371.1556069913427@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAL_armh2H98UMWxsa2smkrexVeB7e39emXpZGzVvJmuSETe=Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <565228918.3061572.1555981555507@mail.yahoo.com>
 <20190422222713.Horde.uVu-7mPXaeyffxHpGBMARXo@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAL_armgFmy==SnELzBKcZo3y9eNByUOy3hQ3BPv8=YMVawFhgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1525374971.2354371.1556069913427@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20190423200634.Horde.9Ghvv9FqLQj-nUVtoU49raW@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


BillK wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 07:43, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:

>> Mankind has hundreds of millennia of practice destroying things. All
>> the easy ways to kill and destroy have largely been mastered already.
>> I am not going to lose sleep worrying that some budding young genius
>> somewhere is going to figure out a way to uncouple matter from the Higg's
>> field by using only his cell phone, a pocket-knife, and bubblegum.

>
> Nick Bostrom and his staff at University of Oxford?s Future of
> Humanity Institute specialise in thinking about existential threats to
> humanity. He is 'future-thinking' about possible threats and possible
> solutions. (So no need to panic just yet).? :)

I am well aware of who Nick Bostrom is and up until this last piece  
thought his writings were rather unconventional, thought-provoking,  
and extropic.

> Current terrorist / deranged human weapons so far are conventional but
> can still cause much death and destruction. All governments are
> increasing population surveillance in an attempt to detect these
> groups / individuals before they cause harm.
> Bostrom is quite reasonably extrapolating present activities into the future.

He is also giving the governments of the world his validation to keep  
doing more of the same. Encouraging them to institute increasingly  
draconian measures on all of their citizens (or maybe just most) in  
order to control for the potential actions of a very few. The  
governments are perpetrating a great injustice in doing this and  
justice is one of the primary PURPOSES of government in the first place.

> It does seem likely that weapons (of all types) will become more
> powerful and more widely available. Also that surveillance will
> increase.
> Both developments are too attractive to those involved.

Which is why I object to Bostrom further encouraging what is already a  
bad situation. There is more to the solution space of this problem  
than simply doing what the government has wanted to do all along.

Stuart LaForge



From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Apr 28 23:26:03 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 16:26:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Ball Lightning
Message-ID: <20190428162603.Horde.RXZvhk-VPyzKFFa8JL0v7e4@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Ball lightning is some crazy stuff. I have never seen it personally,  
but I have read about it my whole life, and thanks to modern cell  
phones and the Internet, we have a lot of videos of this rare natural  
phenomenon. Watching these videos, I can completely understand how  
someone might confuse ball lightning for ET spacecraft. Especially  
since it can interfere with radio and electronics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPkupFNev50


Stuart LaForge



From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 30 01:15:09 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:15:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Primes
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbJwQwp7V4J8i=PttrELoCJoP+TfQowgQbnD++KwacW82g@mail.gmail.com>

Prime number gaps
https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-prove-conjecture-on-big-prime-number-gaps-20141210
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Apr 30 05:53:53 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:53:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Primes
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbJwQwp7V4J8i=PttrELoCJoP+TfQowgQbnD++KwacW82g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOJFdbJwQwp7V4J8i=PttrELoCJoP+TfQowgQbnD++KwacW82g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201d4ff19$182796e0$4876c4a0$@rainier66.com>

Oh this is all so outrageously cool.  Thanks Mike!

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 6:15 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Primes

 

Prime number gaps

https://www.quantamagazine.org/mathematicians-prove-conjecture-on-big-prime-number-gaps-20141210

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Apr 30 15:30:03 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:30:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Total Surveillance may be necessary to save humanity
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbYKL0De7Z1HQZzKxJTHmdxpMjd5qkj3njLuJpJ3cX=Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904231639120.16937@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <CAL_armhBU_8EMM=UiHD-iNxh0Ky5ZDuYzBSdKj7A1eB=sWqd=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbYKL0De7Z1HQZzKxJTHmdxpMjd5qkj3njLuJpJ3cX=Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2Oti_W7WtJfzJa2ck-9Ydsio-0u_ovJaJ3S0qytuW0Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:27 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have my doubts that any state could effectively cut off their people
> from world news.  Techies everywhere can hack satellite signals, or bypass
> the censors on their version of the Web.  Can't they?
>

Firewalls sometimes work too well. I hate to say this but China's great
wall of internet censorship seems to be working exactly as designed. When
students at Beijing University were shown the world famous picture of Tank
Man heroically challenging 70 tons of steel during the 1989 Tiananmen
Square Massacre uprising taken just before the massacre started they had no
idea of what they were looking at and had never seen it before. And the
incident happened right next to the university.

Tank Man
<https://www.zmescience.com/other/great-pics/tank-man-tiananmen-square/>

Man vs. Chinese tank Tiananmen square
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFzeNAHEhU>

John K Clark
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From park246824 at gmail.com  Sun Apr 14 11:03:46 2019
From: park246824 at gmail.com (Jungwhan Park)
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 11:03:46 -0000
Subject: [ExI] evolution
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgkHmOLBX5ddV+Axhagbb7sJ9DwM2Jet=oABgYr6HRCSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbEEgmcNW1FQ6HuRk3+PAGQW32nN2jJnw1WgNAbQP6Bsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <005401d31176$d3c2f9e0$7b48eda0$@rainier66.com>
 <00c301d31192$239bd930$6ad38b90$@att.net>
 <CAO+xQEbWkcebHvY2USijNHKB4FgpDEe_OscJ7WyXqvXyhxizzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <009d01d311ea$cddd05b0$69971110$@att.net>
 <00b801d311ee$1d5896b0$5809c410$@att.net>
 <CAL_armgkHmOLBX5ddV+Axhagbb7sJ9DwM2Jet=oABgYr6HRCSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEhGxCiZciT099zREHtrF-E5u7UsZQepqPsJtHG7vtzui=z5+A@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 August 2017 at 16:34, spike  wrote:
>
> I don?t know what the heck this is, but just as I was leaving for vacation
> BillK or someone posted a link to a species identification software site.
> I had insufficient bandwidth to download that at the time.  If some kind
> soul knows that link, I am ready to play with it now.  I might be able to
> find it again.
>

After quick and intense search on Wikipedia, I came to a decision that it's
very likely a campaea margaritata.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaea_margaritata
http://bugguide.net/node/view/13845

And, as you might have noticed, the range described there does not
explicitly include Washington.

*I'm constantly on a journey of emptying useless(?) folders; this e-mail
has been in the drafts folder for more than a year, so I'm sorry about this.
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From randy.burkhardt at gmail.com  Fri Apr 19 20:56:31 2019
From: randy.burkhardt at gmail.com (Randy Burkhardt)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 13:56:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Opinions on Tesla Model 3?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1904191527590.23996@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <CAJqPBas6_8M=U9=O9zBrTVPaiBe_foU+kremSSxyXb5yoJ4SBw@mail.gmail.com>

The thing I would want to check out is battery life, the popular news
indicates batteries are not going to be much easier to obtain in the
future.  Everything else I could deal with, bad circuits, broken stuff.
But that's me, I'd love to have one if I could drive it for a good while.

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 1:36 PM Bill Hibbard <hibbard at wisc.edu> wrote:

> I recently had the opportunity to drive a friend's Tesla
> Model 3 Dual Motor Performance. It's very tempting:
> 1. Self driving seems to work.
> 2. Very smart and helpful map display and other internal
>     electronics.
> 3. Expensive to buy but cheap to operate.
> 4. Last but surely not least: performance equal to the
>     fastest motorcycle I owned in my youth. Zero to 60
>     in about 3 seconds without the noise and frantic gear
>     shifting. Just pressed back in the seat and you're over
>     the speed limit quicker than the reaction time of your
>     foot on the accelerator.
>
> While we're waiting for significant biological enhancement,
> a vehicle can feel like an extension of your body. This
> Tesla is a very seductive extension.
>
> But, is buying a Tesla a good idea? Any advice?
>
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
Randy
(805) 268-7426


ringtones:
www.randyburkhardt.com
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