From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 19 20:53:05 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 13:53:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
Message-ID: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>

 

Welcome back ExI! 

 

Same general rules as before: 

 

Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.  

 

Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.  

 

Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.  

 

Welcome back!

 

spike

 

*   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party

 

 

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From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 21:38:13 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 22:38:13 +0100
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiYHxe442myHr8CS-CX_o+d_aMP2YpN2LtNSBFTZf=nCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 21:57, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Welcome back ExI!
>
> Same general rules as before:
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
>
> Welcome back!
> spike
>
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


Well, Hi!   Back from holidays, eh?   :)

The thought occurs to me that when extropy.org goes down the Exi mail
server goes down as well.
There are only about 25 regular(ish) posters to the list, so maybe you
could keep a personal emergency mail list so that you could let them
know what's going on?
Anti-spam rules designed to stop bulk mailing might place restrictions
on the size of your personal mail list size and you would have to update
it from time to time, but that shouldn't require much resources.

Best wishes, BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 22:26:40 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 18:26:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:57 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *>Welcome back ExI!*
>

This is wonderful news, I missed everybody even those I argued with; to
tell the truth especially those I argued with.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 19 22:30:15 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 15:30:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiYHxe442myHr8CS-CX_o+d_aMP2YpN2LtNSBFTZf=nCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armiYHxe442myHr8CS-CX_o+d_aMP2YpN2LtNSBFTZf=nCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001e01d556dd$aca4cba0$05ee62e0$@rainier66.com>

Good idea BillK.

I don't expect the mailing list will go down henceforth, for Max has asked
me to take over the cheerful task of seeing to it that it stays up.  This
honor and privilege is one I embraced after mulling it over for several
milliseconds.

ExI is back in business and will stay there.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 2:38 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!

On Mon, 19 Aug 2019 at 21:57, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Welcome back ExI!
>
> Same general rules as before:
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
>
> Welcome back!
> spike
>
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


Well, Hi!   Back from holidays, eh?   :)

The thought occurs to me that when extropy.org goes down the Exi mail server
goes down as well.
There are only about 25 regular(ish) posters to the list, so maybe you could
keep a personal emergency mail list so that you could let them know what's
going on?
Anti-spam rules designed to stop bulk mailing might place restrictions on
the size of your personal mail list size and you would have to update it
from time to time, but that shouldn't require much resources.

Best wishes, BillK

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 19 23:10:29 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 16:10:29 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d556e3$4b9c7f50$e2d57df0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 3:27 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:57 PM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

>Welcome back ExI!

 

This is wonderful news, I missed everybody even those I argued with; to tell the truth especially those I argued with. 

 

John K Clark 

 

 

John I hope you will post the marvelous news you and I learned a few days ago from LIGO please.

 

spike

 

 

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From interzone at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 23:28:24 2019
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:28:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH_meg5HXuj6HZbpYEF=DEE+KOwgjfB=1MiGsdAA=pcBVw@mail.gmail.com>

I missed you too, John!

Xoxo

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 6:29 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:57 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>> *>Welcome back ExI!*
>>
>
> This is wonderful news, I missed everybody even those I argued with; to
> tell the truth especially those I argued with.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 23:45:13 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:45:13 -0400
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <000001d556e3$4b9c7f50$e2d57df0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv05O3kJxdVxT+khAvVSyDcui-Yfr0nzUw8dXj6f-0b8uQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <000001d556e3$4b9c7f50$e2d57df0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3mZyL2ABqhvrY73bM6ih5K_PxfNHvjRsZZ++JWPQ6kjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 7:13 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


>
>
> *>I don't expect the mailing list will go down henceforth, for Max has
> askedme to take over the cheerful task of seeing to it that it stays up.
> Thishonor and privilege is one I embraced after mulling it over for
> severalmilliseconds.*


Thanks Spike, you're a gentleman and a scholar!

*John I hope you will post the marvelous news you and I learned a few days
> ago from LIGO please.*
>

Be happy to. On August 14 2019 LIGO detected for the first time
Gravitational Waves coming from a Black Hole-Neutron Star merger; it was 870
million light years away. They detected something like this a few months
ago but were only 13% confident it was real, this time the signal was much
stronger and they're 99% confident. They've narrowed the source down to a
square 23 degrees on a side, so far they haven't detected any
electromagnetic waves from it but have just started looking.

This type of merger produces a cleaner signal that is easier to analyze
than when two Black Holes merge because if a big thing and a small thing
merge you could make certain approximations that wouldn't work if the two
things were of equal size. And if the Black Hole was large enough the tidal
forces wouldn't be strong enough to break up a Neutron Star until after it
passed through the Event Horizon so the material dynamics of the star would
have no effect on the signal that we see. So you can make a more rigorous
test of General Relativity, and if you could spot a few dozen of these sort
of mergers it could give us the best value yet of the Hubble constant which
has been in dispute lately and perhaps tell us if we're heading for the Big
Rip or not

If the Black Hole was smaller then the Neutron Star would break up on our
side of the Event Horizon making the signal more complex, but on the other
hand that would give us information about the nature of Neutronium and, other
than  glitches with Pulsars caused by starquakes, it is the only way we have
to compare theory with reality because we can't make Neutronium in a lab.

Astronomers Spy a Black Hole Devouring a Neutron Star
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/astronomers-spy-a-black-hole-devouring-a-neutron-star/>

John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Mon Aug 19 23:53:10 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 16:53:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>

There are good reasons to expect humans will never develop time travel
in the base universe in which we live.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven%27s_laws#Niven's_Law_(re_Time_travel)

However, there is a way to get *subjective* time travel with an
uploaded civilization running in a simulated reality.  And no
causality violations.

All it requires is to checkpoint the hardware running the simulated
reality from time to time.  ?Time travel? for an individual in such a
context would amount to reloading a previous checkpoint (perhaps on
new hardware) and entering the simulation.  From a subjective
viewpoint, this would be equivalent to time travel.

Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.

Keith


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 00:01:00 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 17:01:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <B12689BC-90C5-4322-B4D2-0A5F75D0842D@gmail.com>

On Aug 19, 2019, at 1:53 PM, <spike at rainier66.com> <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> 
> Welcome back ExI!
>  
> Same general rules as before:
>  
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here. 
>  
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know. 
>  
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*. 
>  
> Welcome back!
>  
> spike
>  
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>  
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party

Best news of the day!

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 02:05:06 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 19:05:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>

That requires that the travelling individual(s) be aware they are in a
simulation, or at least be aware of the checkpoints.

Those for whom loading the checkpoints includes erasing all knowledge and
memory gained since the checkpoint, essentially cease to have existed
between when the checkpoint is saved and when it is loaded.  For them,
there is no travel: there is the one whose experiences are erased entirely
(without themselves having gone back to the checkpoint), and the one who
continues from the checkpoint (and has no way to know there was another of
themselves).

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:56 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> There are good reasons to expect humans will never develop time travel
> in the base universe in which we live.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven%27s_laws#Niven's_Law_(re_Time_travel)
>
> However, there is a way to get *subjective* time travel with an
> uploaded civilization running in a simulated reality.  And no
> causality violations.
>
> All it requires is to checkpoint the hardware running the simulated
> reality from time to time.  ?Time travel? for an individual in such a
> context would amount to reloading a previous checkpoint (perhaps on
> new hardware) and entering the simulation.  From a subjective
> viewpoint, this would be equivalent to time travel.
>
> Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.
>
> Keith
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 05:10:24 2019
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 07:10:24 +0200
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeEPra1313k3HFx1sBTWxhje84SO9wC3Qj3O+ZJva_wUQ@mail.gmail.com>

Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!

So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is
back, and the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that
someone had made the decision to shut everything down.

In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
always good.

Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!

G.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Welcome back ExI!
>
>
>
> Same general rules as before:
>
>
>
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
>
>
>
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
>
>
>
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
>
>
>
> Welcome back!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 08:14:03 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 04:14:03 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:09 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

*> That requires that the travelling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> simulation, *
>

 Preston Greene makes the point that if you want to test the efficiency of
a new drug it is important that the subjects not know if they are receiving
the drug or a placebo, in the same way...

*"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for research
purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to the
researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we were
to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our creators to
terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*

Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 20 13:02:50 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 06:02:50 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyeEPra1313k3HFx1sBTWxhje84SO9wC3Qj3O+ZJva_wUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKTCJyeEPra1313k3HFx1sBTWxhje84SO9wC3Qj3O+ZJva_wUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001a01d55757$928b1f60$b7a15e20$@rainier66.com>

No it was a misunderstanding on the way the domain had been paid up when the
people who can do something about it were away on vacation.

No worries, I took care of it to make sure it doesn't happen again.

FB: no objection, but I have found email has its advantages.

spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Giulio Prisco
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:10 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!

Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!

So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is back, and
the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that someone had made
the decision to shut everything down.

In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
always good.

Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!

G.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Welcome back ExI!
>
>
>
> Same general rules as before:
>
>
>
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
>
>
>
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
>
>
>
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
>
>
>
> Welcome back!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 15:56:09 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:56:09 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
> research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
> the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
> were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
> creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
>
> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
>

Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 16:05:07 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:05:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3-_ZyQGF37ckx+zQF1bsZr1BVfq4QWWfJstQVv4Sge6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:00 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
>>
>
> *> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim
> where the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough
> to prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done
> - perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> clever folk could not figure out how to use properly. *
>

That is a good point.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 16:08:30 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:08:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>

You guys are just too clever.  What I want to know:  how will we know?
Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black
holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up
with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just
having fun?  bill w

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
>> research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
>> the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
>> were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
>> creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
>>
>> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
>> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
>>
>
> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
> the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
> prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
> perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 16:12:58 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:12:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] gmail
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY2nah3BUfwPGNtkFbXRudjOCof2t9Ac=fOtqR0Qd3f0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Those using Gmail and have had their Inbox changed:  if you don't like it,
go to Settings, Inbox, scroll down and uncheck  all the Inbox categories,
scroll down and Save Changes.

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 20 16:37:31 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:37:31 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations

 

 

 

 

>?You guys are just too clever?

 

On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.

 

>?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w

 

There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level, that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.  

 

If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we are the avatars, and you are the only one.

 

Check this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI

 

Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.

 

spike

 

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Aug 20 16:43:11 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:43:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
Message-ID: <20190820094311.Horde.2nHDvO3XHFxwAXtOUWMdezw@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Woohoo! I missed the list and all you folks so I am glad it is back up  
and running. Thanks to Max, John Klos, Spike, and everybody else that  
made it happen. :-)

Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 17:26:00 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:26:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] AAAS directly promoting human augmentation
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQkM+8ciO2SGBXaOyMG35bRYXRJbdPTqysTuy3sdr=fyg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.aaas.org/page/2019-2020-leshner-leadership-institute-public-engagement-fellows-human-augmentation


https://www.aaas.org/news/scientists-use-public-engagement-share-human-augmentation

It's somewhat low-level for augmentation, but that something this
mainstream is promoting the concept by name is quite a step forward.
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From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 18:34:15 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:34:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Physicist advances a radical theory of gravity
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2deYSN8uS0gL6jNjTDZie_=qD+dZeND3CaqnfO8b7P=sQ@mail.gmail.com>

This may be old hat, but it's new to me.

https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/physicist-radical-theory-of-gravity

The Dutch physicist Erik Verlinde's hypothesis describes gravity as an
"emergent" force not fundamental.
The scientist thinks his ideas describe the universe better than existing
models, without resorting to "dark matter".
While some question his previous papers, Verlinde is reworking his ideas as
a full-fledged theory.

The Dutch theoretical physicist Erik Verlinde is no stranger to big ideas.
His 2009 hypothesis about gravity earned him comparisons to Einstein for
its complete rethinking of what gravity could be. Verlinde proposed that
gravity was not a fundamental force of nature but rather emerged out of the
interactions of information that fills the universe. He also didn't think
there was such a thing as "dark matter" ? a useful construct which is
supposedly taking up 27% of the known universe (but is yet to be observed).
Now, in a new interview, Verlinde reveals he is taking steps towards
conceptualizing his groundbreaking ideas in a full-fledged theory.

As reported by the Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research (NWO),
Verlinde understands why many had trouble accepting his original proposal.
After all, the previous leading explanations of gravity have been by
Newton, who saw it as an invisible pulling force, and Einstein, who
conceived of it as a curvature of space-time by mass and energy.

In Verlinde's view, based on string theory, quantum information theory and
the physics of black holes, gravity is an "entropic" force that comes into
existence as a result of "information associated with the positions of
material bodies," as he wrote in his 2011 paper. What drives gravity is the
quantum entanglement of tiny bits of spacetime information.

Ten years after publishing his ideas in a paper that caused much
discussion, both from admirers and critics, Verlinde shares that he is
still fleshing them out, based on the research and advancements that have
taken place since then.

"Over the past ten years, we have gradually learned a lot more about how
you should talk about space and time information," said Verlinde to NWO. "I
am seriously considering rewriting my story from 2009, but now formulated
much more precisely. I think that could remove some of the scepticism that
still exists.'??

...
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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 19:06:27 2019
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:06:27 -0700
Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack!
In-Reply-To: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpGfdE4QHgVejg8fhZfVOTKhrFhcGA84WWD7WMaMeMdA+g@mail.gmail.com>

I have missed the joy of dancing digital dialogue about things I'm very
interested in and have no one in my everyday life to talk with. I come to
listen to the stories of the cosmos.  Welcome Back, respect and gratitude,
ilsa

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:55 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Welcome back ExI!
>
>
>
> Same general rules as before:
>
>
>
> Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
>
>
>
> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
>
>
>
> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
>
>
>
> Welcome back!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
> knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
> anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
> outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 21:29:37 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 17:29:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Very_recent_developments_in_topological_quantum_?=
	=?utf-8?q?computing_=E2=80=8B?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0j32Jbv72-hX6_iyjshvQKpeUwO=u8xcWJ_Uf+TxB+Qw@mail.gmail.com>

In my opinion a scalable quantum computer could bring about a singularity
in human affairs as surely as Drexler's nanotechnology, and the most
promising way of achieving this is through a fault tolerant topological
quantum computer. In the current issue of the journal Science (August 16
2019) a revolutionary new type of superconductor has been discovered,
uranium ditelluride (UTe2), that may turn out to have some considerable
bearing on this. Nick Butch, from the National Institute of Standards and
one of the authors of the paper says:

*"This is potentially the silicon of the quantum information age. You could
use uranium ditelluride to build the qubits of an efficient quantum
computer."*

ferromagnetic spin-triplet superconductivity
<https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6454/684>

Uranium Ditelluride is a very unusual superconductor for several reasons:

1) It is a topological superconductor, meaning that the interior is a
insulator but the surface is a superconductor.
2)  It can tolerate enormously strong magnetic fields, much higher than
other superconductors.
3) Most superconductors are spin singlet, this means that the spins in the
electrons in the Cooper Pairs, which carry the electrical current in all
superconductors, are lined up in a antiparallel direction; but Uranium
Ditelluride is spin triplet, their electron spins are perpendicular.

All this adds up to the surface of uranium ditelluride being the ideal
stage set to produce logic gates made of Majorana pseudoparticles that obey
non-Abelian statistics. And that means you could store quantum information
topologically which would make it very resistant to quantum decoherence for
the same reason you're unlikely to be able to untie a knot by just bumping
it, you might change its shape but not its topological properties. And quantum
decoherence is by far the most important obstacle we must overcome if we
want to build a scalable quantum computer.

And that is not the only new development in the last few weeks, Javad Shaban
and his team found something similar in Indium arsenide (InAs) although you
must get it much colder before it becomes superconducting, .007 Kelvin
verses 1.6 Kelvin for Uranium ditelluride.

Phase signature of topological transition in Josephson Junctions
<https://arxiv.org/pdf/1906.01179.pdf>

Dr. Shabani said:
*"We see value in these particles because of their potential to store
quantum information in a special computation space where quantum
information is protected from the environment noise. As a result, we have
sought to engineer platforms on which these calculations could be
conducted. The new discovery of topological superconductivity in a
two-dimensional platform paves the way for building scalable topological
qubits to not only store quantum information, but also to manipulate the
quantum states that are free of error. These findings strongly supports the
emergence of a topological phase in the system. This offers a scalable
platform for detection and manipulation of Majorana bounds states for
development of complex circuits for fault-tolerant topological quantum
computing."*

By the way, the leading company in all this is none other than Microsoft.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 20 21:35:07 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 16:35:07 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYAYTYFhwa73p5VXC=9CZjXmASW3v=-exZmOcwdk2ftgg@mail.gmail.com>

I went to an Al Stewart concert in Birmingham many years ago.  Had bought
his record and really liked it.  He was a complete dud in concert.  Just
him, no talk to the audience.  Might as well have stayed home and played
the LP.  bill w

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:41 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?You guys are just too clever?
>
>
>
> On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite
> clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.
>
>
>
> >?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for
> evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.
> Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can
> one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w
>
>
>
> There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit
> about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level,
> that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at
> the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.
>
>
>
> If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise
> way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values
> calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our
> scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then
> you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we
> are the avatars, and you are the only one.
>
>
>
> Check this:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI
>
>
>
> Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 20 22:30:33 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 15:30:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYAYTYFhwa73p5VXC=9CZjXmASW3v=-exZmOcwdk2ftgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAYTYFhwa73p5VXC=9CZjXmASW3v=-exZmOcwdk2ftgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f501d557a6$e1c13160$a5439420$@rainier66.com>

This is surprising Bill.  I went to an Al Stewart concert at the Paul Mason winery above Saratoga.  He put on one hell of a show up there, connected with the audience, lots of interaction, had unscripted things happen such as Stewart made a mistake, Peter White looked over at him, both guys kept playing their guitars, Stewart said ?Oh he?s right, Peter?s right? then they went into the next passage about as seamlessly as if they had planned it that way.  The audience loved it.  That was a great show.

 

Stewart is a wine collector.  There he was at the Paul Mason winery.  During his show he went on and on about this wine and that wine and what he was doing with his life.  That was about 20 yrs ago.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 2:35 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations

 

I went to an Al Stewart concert in Birmingham many years ago.  Had bought his record and really liked it.  He was a complete dud in concert.  Just him, no talk to the audience.  Might as well have stayed home and played the LP.  bill w

 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:41 AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations

 

 

 

 

>?You guys are just too clever?

 

On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.

 

>?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w

 

There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level, that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.  

 

If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we are the avatars, and you are the only one.

 

Check this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI

 

Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.

 

spike

 

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 00:03:50 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 19:03:50 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <00f501d557a6$e1c13160$a5439420$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB6Dh4RsUZBU=6TeMmVqDrk96F6CGbvTEHLLGSf+cX=RgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB7rAErjy8zvt8PNEc=gJt0pfZMmypqeZXsEyOS-_f=JuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPiwVB6SsxvdXKue8oWk5LBwHMOjhyLzOYp6cFRkEhHb88Vpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNRigNXbCGyLnU=Z-kgtuk+9XphE3pCR6yzOw1L9hMpitg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEYAYTYFhwa73p5VXC=9CZjXmASW3v=-exZmOcwdk2ftgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <00f501d557a6$e1c13160$a5439420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYwjfQc9PQ2x5aKpwL56RGSi0m0GXxnvBnJTwMw+MjyqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe Stewart finally warmed up.  His B'ham show was somewhere in the 80s.

My choir director at the Methodist church was John Stewart.  Eventually he
became the college's president.  My chairman called me and told me after
the board met, so I called him to congratulate him and he didn't know it!

So at the first convocation we had he mentioned that I was the first to
tell him.  (He never did know how I knew.)  Then I called out 'Mr.
President, you do know that relations between the profs and the pres have
been pretty rough in the past, and so I thought I'd remind you that your
name, Stewart, derives from 'ward of the sty'.  Biggest laugh I ever got.
He just grinned.

bill w

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 5:33 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> This is surprising Bill.  I went to an Al Stewart concert at the Paul
> Mason winery above Saratoga.  He put on one hell of a show up there,
> connected with the audience, lots of interaction, had unscripted things
> happen such as Stewart made a mistake, Peter White looked over at him, both
> guys kept playing their guitars, Stewart said ?Oh he?s right, Peter?s
> right? then they went into the next passage about as seamlessly as if they
> had planned it that way.  The audience loved it.  That was a great show.
>
>
>
> Stewart is a wine collector.  There he was at the Paul Mason winery.
> During his show he went on and on about this wine and that wine and what he
> was doing with his life.  That was about 20 yrs ago.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 2:35 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
>
>
>
> I went to an Al Stewart concert in Birmingham many years ago.  Had bought
> his record and really liked it.  He was a complete dud in concert.  Just
> him, no talk to the audience.  Might as well have stayed home and played
> the LP.  bill w
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:41 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?You guys are just too clever?
>
>
>
> On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite
> clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.
>
>
>
> >?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for
> evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.
> Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can
> one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w
>
>
>
> There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit
> about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level,
> that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at
> the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.
>
>
>
> If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise
> way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values
> calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our
> scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then
> you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we
> are the avatars, and you are the only one.
>
>
>
> Check this:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI
>
>
>
> Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 05:44:10 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 22:44:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations (Adrian Tymes)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1566326087.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.3.1566326087.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6ENbpBVecqB3h6Y1ojQVoMZGY2-q-HANBr+OFrvQArAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:46 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> That requires that the traveling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> simulation, or at least be aware of the checkpoints.

I presume the individuals in a constructed simulation would know where
they were.  Especially if they uploaded from the base (meat) reality.
(And assuming we are the base reality.)

> Those for whom loading the checkpoints includes erasing all knowledge and
> memory gained since the checkpoint, essentially cease to have existed
> between when the checkpoint is saved and when it is loaded.  For them,
> there is no travel: there is the one whose experiences are erased entirely
> (without themselves having gone back to the checkpoint), and the one who
> continues from the checkpoint (and has no way to know there was another of
> themselves).

I mentioned "new hardware" so it is not required to erase local
history forward of a checkpoint.  In fact, parallel threads can
continue to run.

> > Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.

Thinking about this, not certain.  Is the simulation computer deterministic?

Keith

> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:56 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There are good reasons to expect humans will never develop time travel
> > in the base universe in which we live.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven%27s_laws#Niven's_Law_(re_Time_travel)
> >
> > However, there is a way to get *subjective* time travel with an
> > uploaded civilization running in a simulated reality.  And no
> > causality violations.
> >
> > All it requires is to checkpoint the hardware running the simulated
> > reality from time to time.  ?Time travel? for an individual in such a
> > context would amount to reloading a previous checkpoint (perhaps on
> > new hardware) and entering the simulation.  From a subjective
> > viewpoint, this would be equivalent to time travel.
> >
> > Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 07:10:24 +0200
> From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID:
>         <CAKTCJyeEPra1313k3HFx1sBTWxhje84SO9wC3Qj3O+ZJva_wUQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!
>
> So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is
> back, and the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that
> someone had made the decision to shut everything down.
>
> In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
> Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
> always good.
>
> Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back ExI!
> >
> >
> >
> > Same general rules as before:
> >
> >
> >
> > Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back!
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 04:14:03 -0400
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:09 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> That requires that the travelling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> > simulation, *
> >
>
>  Preston Greene makes the point that if you want to test the efficiency of
> a new drug it is important that the subjects not know if they are receiving
> the drug or a placebo, in the same way...
>
> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for research
> purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to the
> researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we were
> to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our creators to
> terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
>
> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
>
> John K Clark
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 06:02:50 -0700
> From: <spike at rainier66.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: <spike at rainier66.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID: <001a01d55757$928b1f60$b7a15e20$@rainier66.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> No it was a misunderstanding on the way the domain had been paid up when the
> people who can do something about it were away on vacation.
>
> No worries, I took care of it to make sure it doesn't happen again.
>
> FB: no objection, but I have found email has its advantages.
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Giulio Prisco
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:10 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
>
> Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!
>
> So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is back, and
> the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that someone had made
> the decision to shut everything down.
>
> In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
> Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
> always good.
>
> Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back ExI!
> >
> >
> >
> > Same general rules as before:
> >
> >
> >
> > Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back!
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
> knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
> anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
> outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:56:09 -0700
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
> > research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
> > the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
> > were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
> > creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
> >
> > Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> > <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >
>
> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
> the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
> prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
> perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:05:07 -0400
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJPayv3-_ZyQGF37ckx+zQF1bsZr1BVfq4QWWfJstQVv4Sge6Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:00 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> >> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >>
> >
> > *> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim
> > where the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough
> > to prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done
> > - perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> > clever folk could not figure out how to use properly. *
> >
>
> That is a good point.
>
> John K Clark
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:08:30 -0500
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You guys are just too clever.  What I want to know:  how will we know?
> Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black
> holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up
> with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just
> having fun?  bill w
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
> >> research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
> >> the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
> >> were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
> >> creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
> >>
> >> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> >> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >>
> >
> > Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
> > the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
> > prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
> > perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> > clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:12:58 -0500
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] gmail
> Message-ID:
>         <CAO+xQEY2nah3BUfwPGNtkFbXRudjOCof2t9Ac=fOtqR0Qd3f0Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Those using Gmail and have had their Inbox changed:  if you don't like it,
> go to Settings, Inbox, scroll down and uncheck  all the Inbox categories,
> scroll down and Save Changes.
>
> bill w
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:37:31 -0700
> From: <spike at rainier66.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: <spike at rainier66.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID: <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?You guys are just too clever?
>
>
>
> On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.
>
>
>
> >?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w
>
>
>
> There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level, that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.
>
>
>
> If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we are the avatars, and you are the only one.
>
>
>
> Check this:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI
>
>
>
> Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:43:11 -0700
> From: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> To: ExI Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID:
>         <20190820094311.Horde.2nHDvO3XHFxwAXtOUWMdezw at secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes
>
> Woohoo! I missed the list and all you folks so I am glad it is back up
> and running. Thanks to Max, John Klos, Spike, and everybody else that
> made it happen. :-)
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:26:00 -0700
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] AAAS directly promoting human augmentation
> Message-ID:
>         <CALAdGNQkM+8ciO2SGBXaOyMG35bRYXRJbdPTqysTuy3sdr=fyg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> https://www.aaas.org/page/2019-2020-leshner-leadership-institute-public-engagement-fellows-human-augmentation
>
>
> https://www.aaas.org/news/scientists-use-public-engagement-share-human-augmentation
>
> It's somewhat low-level for augmentation, but that something this
> mainstream is promoting the concept by name is quite a step forward.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:34:15 -0400
> From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
> To: Extropy chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Physicist advances a radical theory of gravity
> Message-ID:
>         <CAM5aL2deYSN8uS0gL6jNjTDZie_=qD+dZeND3CaqnfO8b7P=sQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> This may be old hat, but it's new to me.
>
> https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/physicist-radical-theory-of-gravity
>
> The Dutch physicist Erik Verlinde's hypothesis describes gravity as an
> "emergent" force not fundamental.
> The scientist thinks his ideas describe the universe better than existing
> models, without resorting to "dark matter".
> While some question his previous papers, Verlinde is reworking his ideas as
> a full-fledged theory.
>
> The Dutch theoretical physicist Erik Verlinde is no stranger to big ideas.
> His 2009 hypothesis about gravity earned him comparisons to Einstein for
> its complete rethinking of what gravity could be. Verlinde proposed that
> gravity was not a fundamental force of nature but rather emerged out of the
> interactions of information that fills the universe. He also didn't think
> there was such a thing as "dark matter" ? a useful construct which is
> supposedly taking up 27% of the known universe (but is yet to be observed).
> Now, in a new interview, Verlinde reveals he is taking steps towards
> conceptualizing his groundbreaking ideas in a full-fledged theory.
>
> As reported by the Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research (NWO),
> Verlinde understands why many had trouble accepting his original proposal.
> After all, the previous leading explanations of gravity have been by
> Newton, who saw it as an invisible pulling force, and Einstein, who
> conceived of it as a curvature of space-time by mass and energy.
>
> In Verlinde's view, based on string theory, quantum information theory and
> the physics of black holes, gravity is an "entropic" force that comes into
> existence as a result of "information associated with the positions of
> material bodies," as he wrote in his 2011 paper. What drives gravity is the
> quantum entanglement of tiny bits of spacetime information.
>
> Ten years after publishing his ideas in a paper that caused much
> discussion, both from admirers and critics, Verlinde shares that he is
> still fleshing them out, based on the research and advancements that have
> taken place since then.
>
> "Over the past ten years, we have gradually learned a lot more about how
> you should talk about space and time information," said Verlinde to NWO. "I
> am seriously considering rewriting my story from 2009, but now formulated
> much more precisely. I think that could remove some of the scepticism that
> still exists.'??
>
> ...
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> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 191, Issue 2
> ********************************************


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 06:38:18 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:38:18 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations (Adrian Tymes)
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB6ENbpBVecqB3h6Y1ojQVoMZGY2-q-HANBr+OFrvQArAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1566326087.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <CAPiwVB6ENbpBVecqB3h6Y1ojQVoMZGY2-q-HANBr+OFrvQArAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNRbRvW7VSi3M_qnoK1q3K6eTDxCnNqvnzns4=xvY0jAfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:48 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:46 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > That requires that the traveling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> > simulation, or at least be aware of the checkpoints.
>
> I presume the individuals in a constructed simulation would know where
> they were.  Especially if they uploaded from the base (meat) reality.
> (And assuming we are the base reality.)
>

I do not recall that being the situation under discussion.  If you adjust a
simulation that you know is a simulation, then to you that isn't time
travel, but just adjusting a simulation.
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 11:27:08 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:27:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>

The good news is after the most important astronomical observatory in the
world was closed for 4 weeks by protestors for the first time since it
opened in 1967 has now reopened. On the first day of operation they learned
that a near Earth asteroid they'd been worried about will not hit the Earth
after all:

Critical observation made on first night of return to operations
<http://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/article.php?aId=10135>

The Hawaiian observatory was shut down by a mob determined to keep us in
ignorance by illegally stopping construction of the magnificent Thirty
Meter Telescope, it would have been the largest in the world. The protest
started after the astronomers won a 4 year court battle and the law said
they could start construction, but the legal victory meant nothing because
the protestors illegally blocked the only road up 13,803 foot Mauna Kea and
the police refused to protect the astronomers. The mob believes an
invisible man lives on top of that mountain and he doesn't like
telescopes.  After 4 weeks the protesters somewhat relented and
graciously allowed
vehicles to travel on the road again, but only after they were searched to
make certain they contained nothing that could in any way help in
constructing one of the most noble things the human race has ever attempted
to make, the Thirty Meter Telescope.

It's clear to me that law or no law the Thirty Meter Telescope is as dead
as a doornail and the army of ignorance has won. That became even clearer
to me when I learned that two Hollywood braindead actors have joined the
telescope protesters, Dwayne (The Rock) Johnson and Jason (Aquaman) Momoa;
you can't fight the power of Hollywood. It's stuff like this that gives
liberalism a bad name.

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug 21 12:53:23 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 05:53:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark



 

Critical observation made on first night of return to operations <http://manoa.hawaii.edu/news/article.php?aId=10135>  

 

>?The Hawaiian observatory was shut down by a mob determined to keep us in ignorance by illegally stopping construction?the protestors illegally blocked the only road up 13,803 foot Mauna Kea and the police refused to protect the astronomers?

 

Hmmm?  Let?s have the astronomers and construction workers disguise themselves as protestors, get past em that way.

 

 

>?The mob believes an invisible man lives on top of that mountain and he doesn't like telescopes?

 John K Clark

 

Are we free to theorize an invisible man lives anywhere we want, then have that whole thing shut down?  Oh what a concept.

 

This whole notion is a large and growing problem in California.  Laws were passed that allow native Americans to block developments with unsupported claims that their ancestors once lived there.  Of course the NIMBYs and anti-development people of all kinds will use that to their advantage resulting in a persistent lack of housing, resulting in a booming homeless population.

 

spike

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From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 14:38:57 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 15:38:57 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armgRGkrLhGjZ9fLHswLiyL+u=JzbN_NEM+tfCzck=x+jsA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 13:57, <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> This whole notion is a large and growing problem in California.  Laws were passed that allow native Americans to block developments with unsupported claims that their ancestors once lived there.  Of course the NIMBYs and anti-development people of all kinds will use that to their advantage resulting in a persistent lack of housing, resulting in a booming homeless population.
>
> spike

What!! You're blaming the increase in homelessness in California on
primitive Native Americans! That's just loopy.
Nearly as crazy as John calling the native Hawaiians ignorant.

Both groups are smart and know exactly what they are doing.
If you are a small group with little power facing a large powerful
system you don't fight in the way that suits your opponent.
It's called asymmetrical warfare.
If the giant has armour and a big sword, you use a slingshot.
If the group is larger and you treat them with contempt and call them
deplorables, then you end up with you know who.
Weaker members of society are to be looked after, not trampled on as
surplus to requirements.



BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 14:48:37 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:48:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv37vzoa8X=rBnYna03ROnnuY=w9K0=_CseyJZ414oMSOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:57 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:



> *> This whole notion is a large and growing problem in California.  Laws
> were passed that allow native Americans to block developments with
> unsupported claims that their ancestors once lived there. *
>

The difference is there is not a scrap of evidence native Hawaiians ever
lived on top of Mauna Kea, in fact there is no evidence any human being
ever stood on top of it before 1823 when a American missionary climbed it.
And the law is on the astronomers side, they won the 4 year legal battle
but that victory gave them nothing. If it wasn't for those superstitious
barbarians the Thirty Meter Telescope would be completed right about now
and we'd have an instrument with 12.5 times the resolution and 156 time the
light gathering power as the Hubble Space Telescope, but instead we've got
nothing. Although it hasn't been formally canceled yet I think we can take
it as a given its never going to be built. Oh well... at least the
invisible man on the mountain won't get scared at night by that big bad
telescope.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 15:46:29 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:46:29 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armgRGkrLhGjZ9fLHswLiyL+u=JzbN_NEM+tfCzck=x+jsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgRGkrLhGjZ9fLHswLiyL+u=JzbN_NEM+tfCzck=x+jsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3Y4QkfPxtzjK8CTchQdDT4AShKsfPPRFi9bO_K684hCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:43 AM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:

*> Nearly as crazy as John calling the native Hawaiians ignorant.*


Sorry I misspoke, I meant to call the native Hawaiian protestors ignorant
braindead dumb barbarians. But is it really your position that somebody is
not ignorant if they illegally stop the construction of an instrument that
would teach us more about the universe because it would disturb an
invisible man who lives on top of a mountain? Can you tell me with a
straight face that is wise behavior?

* > Both groups are smart*


Both groups were dumb. One group was dumb for obvious reasons but the
astronomers were dumb too, they overestimated the intelligence and
rationality of the native Hawaiian protesters and they should have glad
handed and patronized them more. But I guess most astronomers just aren't
natural politicians.


>
> * > It's called asymmetrical warfare. If the giant has armour and a big
> sword, you use a slingshot.*


The astronomers had a very small slingshot called reason. The giant had
armour called Dwayne (the Rock) Johnson and a big sword called Aquaman. The
fight was never even close, the poor astronomers never stood a chance.


> * > If the group is larger and you treat them with contempt and call them
> deplorables, then you end up with you know who*.
>

It may interest you to know that liberal Democratic presidential candidate
Elizabeth Warren agrees with you completely, she fully supports the
deplorable Hawaiian ignoramuses.

* > Weaker members of society are to be looked after, not trampled on *


I agree, we need to treat our astronomers with more respect, they're human
beings too and deserve some dignity.

John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 16:46:12 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 09:46:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1566386882.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.5.1566386882.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB6Lfr-E4KD_pC9OP6n8mpCcFezQT=hhxUk_3r8VtUV_0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 4:38 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:48 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:46 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > That requires that the traveling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> > > simulation, or at least be aware of the checkpoints.
> >
> > I presume the individuals in a constructed simulation would know where
> > they were.  Especially if they uploaded from the base (meat) reality.
> > (And assuming we are the base reality.)
>
> I do not recall that being the situation under discussion.  If you adjust a
> simulation that you know is a simulation, then to you that isn't time
> travel, but just adjusting a simulation.

The original post stipulated no real time travel.  But from a
subjective viewpoint of a person in a checkpointed simulation, it
looks like time travel.

You are correct though.  An alternate way to look at it would be
adjusting a simulation.

Drexler and I have written about speeding up minds by a million fold.
The same hardware could simulate a million parallel simulations.

 Keith

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 17:06:03 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:06:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>

Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?

(Just looking for something to read)

bill w
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug 21 17:48:43 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:48:43 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d901d55848$acedc190$06c944b0$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf 
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?

 

(Just looking for something to read)

 

bill w

 

 

The only ones I can claim in that department are Kurt Godel and my own fifth cousin John Forbes Nash.  It is unclear whether the crowning achievements of either of these could be considered philosophy, or more properly mathematics, but those two are my choice.  

 

As far as I know, neither wrote a book.  But the Incompleteness Theorem and the notion of the Nash Equilibrium are two concepts which blew my mind such that they changed my life.

 

Our own Max More is a philosopher.  Do read his works which kicked off the Extropy Institute.  That material prevented me from devolving into an amoeba.

 

spike

 

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From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 18:44:56 2019
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:44:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBng_UhGezxppHiXes0ZtO2TSeps97YpOh-sti1xd29nY-A@mail.gmail.com>

Douglas Hofstadter and his books. First G?del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal
Golden Braid and then all his other books.
Douglas Hofstadter probably do not think of himself as an philosopher but
the difference between him and a self proclaimed philosopher is purely
philosophical.
Also his books are rather more readable than most despite the heavy content.
/Henrik

Den ons 21 aug. 2019 19:09William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> skrev:

> Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?
>
> (Just looking for something to read)
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>

Den ons 21 aug. 2019 19:09William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> skrev:

> Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?
>
> (Just looking for something to read)
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Aug 21 19:33:58 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:33:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAF0GBng_UhGezxppHiXes0ZtO2TSeps97YpOh-sti1xd29nY-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAF0GBng_UhGezxppHiXes0ZtO2TSeps97YpOh-sti1xd29nY-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101d55857$60d2e290$2278a7b0$@rainier66.com>

Ja I agree.  I didn?t include Hofstadter but he is perhaps a better choice than the ones I offered: way more readable, wrote way more stuff.

 

I was privileged to meet him in person.  He came to Stanford on 1 April 2000 and joined a panel discussion.  That was a marvelous time.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 11:45 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

Douglas Hofstadter and his books. First G?del, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid and then all his other books.

Douglas Hofstadter probably do not think of himself as an philosopher but the difference between him and a self proclaimed philosopher is purely philosophical. 

Also his books are rather more readable than most despite the heavy content.

/Henrik

 

Den ons 21 aug. 2019 19:09William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > skrev:

Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?

 

(Just looking for something to read)

 

bill w

_______________________________________________
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Den ons 21 aug. 2019 19:09William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com <mailto:foozler83 at gmail.com> > skrev:

Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?

 

(Just looking for something to read)

 

bill w

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 20:52:53 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:52:53 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>

On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:06 AM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?
> 
> (Just looking for something to read)
> 
> bill w

I don?t like to pick favorites, especially in terms of this... Maybe in terms of books. But rather than list a favorite, let me mention a nontechnical book by a philosopher that I want to read... Actually, I started reading it and want to get back to and finish it:

_Things That Bother Me: Death, Freedom, The Self, Etc_ by Galen Strawson

Here?s a brief review:

https://www.ft.com/content/e96918c6-3cd9-11e8-b7e0-52972418fec4

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 21:14:38 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 16:14:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3Y4QkfPxtzjK8CTchQdDT4AShKsfPPRFi9bO_K684hCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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I feel like talking about the ?barbarous idiots? in Hawaii to be contributing absolutely nothing, while also being actively insulting. I think it?s probably more fruitful to talk about advancements. We already know everyone?s positions on the Hawaiian protestors. 

SR Ballard

> On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:46 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:43 AM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Nearly as crazy as John calling the native Hawaiians ignorant.
> 
> Sorry I misspoke, I meant to call the native Hawaiian protestors ignorant braindead dumb barbarians. But is it really your position that somebody is not ignorant if they illegally stop the construction of an instrument that would teach us more about the universe because it would disturb an invisible man who lives on top of a mountain? Can you tell me with a straight face that is wise behavior? 
> 
>> > Both groups are smart
> 
> Both groups were dumb. One group was dumb for obvious reasons but the astronomers were dumb too, they overestimated the intelligence and rationality of the native Hawaiian protesters and they should have glad handed and patronized them more. But I guess most astronomers just aren't natural politicians.
>  
>> > It's called asymmetrical warfare. If the giant has armour and a big sword, you use a slingshot.
> 
> The astronomers had a very small slingshot called reason. The giant had armour called Dwayne (the Rock) Johnson and a big sword called Aquaman. The fight was never even close, the poor astronomers never stood a chance.
>  
>> > If the group is larger and you treat them with contempt and call them deplorables, then you end up with you know who.
> 
> It may interest you to know that liberal Democratic presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren agrees with you completely, she fully supports the deplorable Hawaiian ignoramuses.  
> 
>> > Weaker members of society are to be looked after, not trampled on
> 
> I agree, we need to treat our astronomers with more respect, they're human beings too and deserve some dignity. 
> 
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 21:32:44 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:32:44 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <A799456F-FECB-44D7-8B2F-90726600321F@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:17 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:

*> I feel like talking about the ?barbarous idiots? in Hawaii ,*
>

You're misquoting me, the correct term is "ignorant braindead dumb
barbarians".


> *> to be contributing absolutely nothing*


It's contributing to the truth, and that's something. I just don't
understand why anybody who can see the beauty in science and the
magnificence of the universe could have the slightest sympathy for these
sphincters.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 22:30:31 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 17:30:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0ASeeN2nVWBH3YM+xT3hrGtF8SLK6hGosymNNP7AFzjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armgRGkrLhGjZ9fLHswLiyL+u=JzbN_NEM+tfCzck=x+jsA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaHkkgmFqwKP8Py1QRbMTBaOUaKAU+pkWd=1tnw9zNkgw@mail.gmail.com>

It's contributing to the truth, and that's something. I just don't
understand why anybody who can see the beauty in science and the
magnificence of the universe could have the slightest sympathy for these
sphincters.

 John K Clark
I don't think anyone of us would support them in any way.  It's just that
cussing them out to us is a waste of time - howling at the moon.  It's like
saying 'how can anyone be so dumb?'  We all know that there are morons
galore, but finding something constructive to say about them is hopeless.
Plus, it's not good for your stress levels to play Outrage often.

bill w


On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 4:36 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:17 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> I feel like talking about the ?barbarous idiots? in Hawaii ,*
>>
>
> You're misquoting me, the correct term is "ignorant braindead dumb
> barbarians".
>
>
>> *> to be contributing absolutely nothing*
>
>
> It's contributing to the truth, and that's something. I just don't
> understand why anybody who can see the beauty in science and the
> magnificence of the universe could have the slightest sympathy for these
> sphincters.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Wed Aug 21 23:49:22 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:49:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>

I like Hofstadter.  For traditional philosopher, I'd say Chalmers
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 01:47:32 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:47:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>

My own favorite is Hume.  And Adam Smith, relatively unknown as a
philosopher.

bill w

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 6:52 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I like Hofstadter.  For traditional philosopher, I'd say Chalmers
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 01:58:02 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:58:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AF97910-B7F4-4894-B646-ABC15F11011F@gmail.com>

On Aug 21, 2019, at 6:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> My own favorite is Hume.  And Adam Smith, relatively unknown as a philosopher.
> 
> bill w

An interesting case because I think his book on moral sentiments was what made him famous 17 years before the work he?s almost exclusively known for now.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 10:15:22 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 06:15:22 -0400
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1CBK4Fvn=sboWMV8FUYi9aTQLAPY9tNPcKuxnbWnb5PQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 1:09 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?
> (Just looking for something to read)
>

I would strongly recommend "The tao is silent" by Raymond Smullyan, it's
entertaining and yet deep and one of my all time favorite books,:

The tao is silent
<https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Silent-Raymond-M-Smullyan/dp/0060674695/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+tao+is+silent&qid=1566468561&s=gateway&sr=8-1>

John K Clark

>
>
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 13:30:56 2019
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:30:56 +0200
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1CBK4Fvn=sboWMV8FUYi9aTQLAPY9tNPcKuxnbWnb5PQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1CBK4Fvn=sboWMV8FUYi9aTQLAPY9tNPcKuxnbWnb5PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeGgu3xUV5pBsHKFULU3Z6caMF=3i3aiWcqSwc-Ve9nrA@mail.gmail.com>

William James

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:18 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 1:09 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Who is your favorite modern or older philosopher?
>> (Just looking for something to read)
>>
>
> I would strongly recommend "The tao is silent" by Raymond Smullyan, it's
> entertaining and yet deep and one of my all time favorite books,:
>
> The tao is silent
> <https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Silent-Raymond-M-Smullyan/dp/0060674695/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+tao+is+silent&qid=1566468561&s=gateway&sr=8-1>
>
> John K Clark
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 22 14:02:15 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:02:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

 

 

 

 

>?My own favorite is Hume.  And Adam Smith, relatively unknown as a philosopher.

 

bill w

 

 

Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776 book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to infect the planet.

 

spike

 

 

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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 14:20:37 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:20:37 -0400
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:33 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:

> William James
>

Quite a pragmatic post ;)


On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:04 <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the
> 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776
> book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to
> infect the planet.
>
>
>
> spike
>

I'm not sure where to start with this one, but maybe first off I would say
that Karl Marx did read WoN, and other Smith, as if it wasn't painfully
obvious.

Capital is part of the lineage of WoN, cf. labor theory of value.  Also.
Smith was pretty much pre-capitalist and probably would have chosen his
words more carefully if he could have seen the influence that WoN would
have.

I like to say that Capital is the book that Adam Smith would have written
if he had the luxury of being able to read Wealth of Nations like Marx was
able to.

Have you read both?  Or just hate them damn pinkos, Sen. McCarthy?

NB: A lot of modern day economists might take umbrage at the idea that
Smith "had economics figured out", especially because he was not able to
see modern capitalism at its finest.

BTW, I am not a communist, I just believe in market failures.  As does any
economist worth their salt.
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 14:43:00 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:43:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <665F2740-7209-4C06-9979-4D5C411140C2@gmail.com>

On Aug 22, 2019, at 7:02 AM, <spike at rainier66.com> <spike at rainier66.com> wrote: 
> 
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
> Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> >?My own favorite is Hume.  And Adam Smith, relatively unknown as a philosopher.
>  
> bill w
>  
>  
> Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776 book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to infect the planet.

Ah, but Marx did read Adam Smith And was familiar with the ideas of other Classical economists like David Ricardo. It?s not unfair to say that Marx, in many ways, was working from a Classical basis in his economics, especially his latching onto the labor theory of value, seeing economics purely in terms of material forces, and ignoring the role of entrepreneurship. Marx did his studying and writing mostly before the Marginalist Revolution in economics, so it?s not surprising that he started from a Classicsl background. (As an economist, he never grew beyond that background, IMO; and therein lies the problem with his economics.)  

See also:

http://www.cadtm.org/Adam-Smith-is-closer-to-Karl-Marx

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 15:00:36 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:00:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1VsdU07_iiBk4pD8fy8cQMY2ZnY25uMc7tCMhr0bnX+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:06 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

*> My own favorite is Hume.  And Adam Smith, relatively unknown as a
> philosopher.*


I liked "The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism" by  David
D. Friedman

The Machinery of Freedom: Guide to a Radical Capitalism
<https://www.amazon.com/Machinery-Freedom-Guide-Radical-Capitalism/dp/1507785607/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Machinery+of+Freedom&qid=1566485419&s=gateway&sr=8-1>

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 22 15:16:13 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:16:13 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>

 

Hi Will,

 

I believe in market failures too.  Market failures are what causes market successes.  The beauty of Capitalism is that it presents consumers with both the winners and the losers.  We get to choose which is which.

 

In communism, the unelected government dictates who are the winners and the losers.

 

This is why capitalism produces corvettes and Cadillacs, while communism produced Trabis and? well, a bunch more Trabis.  

 

Fun aside for car guys: most of the Soviet-era cars were actually German designs.  They didn?t change much over the years, and why should they?  The factory sold all they could produce, so why improve the design?  Besides, they already had the machines to make this design.  They seized them from the Nazis in 1945.

 

Another fun aside for car guys: there is a Russian car club which holds occasional rallies.  If you want a lesson in the magic tricks perpetrated by the Invisible Hand of Capitalism, go to that rally, look at those commie-build cars, oh dear evolution, what (if anything) were these guys thinking?  When the Japanese started importing cars the US in the early 60s they had a reputation for being cheapy junk.  Do let me assure you, the Russians defined the term and taught the Japanese.  You have never seen cheapy junk until you have seen a Russian built car from the 80s, oh mercy.

 

spike

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Will Steinberg
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:21 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:33 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com <mailto:giulio at gmail.com> > wrote:

William James

 

Quite a pragmatic post ;)

 

 

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:04 <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

 

Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776 book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to infect the planet.

 

spike

 

I'm not sure where to start with this one, but maybe first off I would say that Karl Marx did read WoN, and other Smith, as if it wasn't painfully obvious.

 

Capital is part of the lineage of WoN, cf. labor theory of value.  Also. Smith was pretty much pre-capitalist and probably would have chosen his words more carefully if he could have seen the influence that WoN would have. 

 

I like to say that Capital is the book that Adam Smith would have written if he had the luxury of being able to read Wealth of Nations like Marx was able to.

 

Have you read both?  Or just hate them damn pinkos, Sen. McCarthy?

 

NB: A lot of modern day economists might take umbrage at the idea that Smith "had economics figured out", especially because he was not able to see modern capitalism at its finest.

 

BTW, I am not a communist, I just believe in market failures.  As does any economist worth their salt.

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 15:48:45 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:48:45 -0400
Subject: [ExI] We Are Legion We Are Bob Bobiverse Book 1 Inbox x
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3_3yQBN_8VejrLM7cZ+QQVPDAXdvNZhba3qvEYE47JtA@mail.gmail.com>

When I was younger I read a lot of science fiction, I don't do it so much
anymore and technically I didn't do it this time either but I did listen to
a audio book called "We Are Legion We Are Bob" it's the first book of
the Bobiverse trilogy and I really enjoyed it. You can get a free 5 minute
sample of the book here:

We Are Legion (We Are Bob): Bobiverse, Book 1
<https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/B01L082SCI/ref=tmm_aud_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=>

It tells the story of Bob, a young man who has just sold his software
company for a crazy amount of money and decides that after a decade of hard
work he's going to spent the rest of his life just goofing off. On a whim
he signs with a Cryonics company to have his head frozen after his death
and then just hours later while crossing the street to go to a science
fiction convention is hit by a car and dies. Five subjective seconds later
he wakes up and finds that a century has passed and he's been uploaded into
a computer. This is all in the opening chapter.

Parts of the story are unrealistic but parts of it are not, I think it
was Isaac
Asimov who said it's OK for a science fiction writer to violate the known
laws of physics but only if he knows he's doing it, and when Dennis Taylor,
the creator of Bob universe, does it at one point with faster than light
communication it's obvious that he knowns it. And I can't deny it makes for
a story that is more fun to read. I have now read (well listened) to all 3
Bob books and, although parts are a little corny and parts a little too
Star Trek for my taste, on the whole I greatly enjoyed them all. They're a
lot of fun.

The only other novel I can think of that treats the subject of uploading
with equal intelligence is "The Silicon Man".

The Silicon Man by Charles Platt
<https://www.amazon.com/Silicon-Man-Cortext-Charles-Platt/dp/1888869143>

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 16:58:49 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:58:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] extropianism
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbO58+gBBUuBX+6cMKFePAxJh4i3Qf6ar7hFRaLvQj=YQ@mail.gmail.com>

One of the main aspects is that humans should evolve or be formed into a
rational being, perhaps by genetic manipulation.

This is sadly out of date.  Studies of brain=damaged people who have lost
their connections between the prefrontal cortex cannot make a decision of
any kind.  They just dither.  Damasio, maybe (damn my memory anyway!  or
maybe I just read too many books).  Thus we have to like something or
dislike it in some way to be able to conclude which options are best.  We
might have to redefine emotion:  the amount of emotion that goes into what
we would call a rational decision must be small, or at least unfelt in most
cases.  So there has to be unconscious emotions, which sounds like an
oxymoron.

So we have to preserve the emotional inputs to get decisions that make any
sense.

So, by the way, all of those people, which is 99% of them (all males) who
thought that women could only make emotional decisions and thus were
worthless for anything but having and tending babies, were completely
wrong.  Not just wrong, but depriving society of the intellectual input of
smart women, just like the Muslims do - or the Arabs, or at least some of
those Mideastern peoples.

Maybe now women can develop the kind of intellectual history that men have,
the developing of world class contributions in music and literature,
philosophy, and so on.

USA did it first, I think.  Good for us.

bill w
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From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 18:09:38 2019
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:09:38 +0200
Subject: [ExI] extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbO58+gBBUuBX+6cMKFePAxJh4i3Qf6ar7hFRaLvQj=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbO58+gBBUuBX+6cMKFePAxJh4i3Qf6ar7hFRaLvQj=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf0_6eO4+vvitNHYTvTD7veOCGc1m0D+Fqb+f5Ks88NgA@mail.gmail.com>

Rationality is a tool, not and end, and emotions are often more rational
than what we call "rationality," and much faster.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:01 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> One of the main aspects is that humans should evolve or be formed into a
> rational being, perhaps by genetic manipulation.
>
> This is sadly out of date.  Studies of brain=damaged people who have lost
> their connections between the prefrontal cortex cannot make a decision of
> any kind.  They just dither.  Damasio, maybe (damn my memory anyway!  or
> maybe I just read too many books).  Thus we have to like something or
> dislike it in some way to be able to conclude which options are best.  We
> might have to redefine emotion:  the amount of emotion that goes into what
> we would call a rational decision must be small, or at least unfelt in most
> cases.  So there has to be unconscious emotions, which sounds like an
> oxymoron.
>
> So we have to preserve the emotional inputs to get decisions that make any
> sense.
>
> So, by the way, all of those people, which is 99% of them (all males) who
> thought that women could only make emotional decisions and thus were
> worthless for anything but having and tending babies, were completely
> wrong.  Not just wrong, but depriving society of the intellectual input of
> smart women, just like the Muslims do - or the Arabs, or at least some of
> those Mideastern peoples.
>
> Maybe now women can develop the kind of intellectual history that men
> have, the developing of world class contributions in music and literature,
> philosophy, and so on.
>
> USA did it first, I think.  Good for us.
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Thu Aug 22 20:11:23 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:11:23 -0700
Subject: [ExI] extropianism
In-Reply-To: <CAKTCJyf0_6eO4+vvitNHYTvTD7veOCGc1m0D+Fqb+f5Ks88NgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbO58+gBBUuBX+6cMKFePAxJh4i3Qf6ar7hFRaLvQj=YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKTCJyf0_6eO4+vvitNHYTvTD7veOCGc1m0D+Fqb+f5Ks88NgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401d55925$c5ad0410$51070c30$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco
Subject: Re: [ExI] extropianism

 

 

 

 

>?Rationality is a tool, not and end, and emotions are often more rational than what we call "rationality," and much faster? Julio

 

 

 

Perhaps you mean ?The heart knows reasons that reason knows not.?  Pascal

 

Fortunately for cryonauts, the heart is in the brain.

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Aug 22 20:53:30 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:53:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0ASeeN2nVWBH3YM+xT3hrGtF8SLK6hGosymNNP7AFzjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNRBrrMgo6Br0Ox7h1Fc5K1SbC5xH+fXGp07i6Mf6k+dUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 2:35 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:17 PM SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> I feel like talking about the ?barbarous idiots? in Hawaii ,*
>>
>
> You're misquoting me, the correct term is "ignorant braindead dumb
> barbarians".
>
>
>> *> to be contributing absolutely nothing*
>
>
> It's contributing to the truth, and that's something. I just don't
> understand why anybody who can see the beauty in science and the
> magnificence of the universe could have the slightest sympathy for these
> sphincters.
>

Especially if, as seems to be the case, they are in fact lying about their
ancestral claims.
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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Aug 23 02:15:49 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:15:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <184797954.741877.1566525812401@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <20190822191549.Horde.4eI0ZIHh9Q0ktBgyOPOmbeD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Adrian Tymes:

> Especially if, as seems to be the case, they are in fact lying about  
> their ancestral claims.

How do you figure that? Every article I have read on the matter talks  
about their ancestral claim as a given. Also it's not really about the  
mountain. It's about native-Hawaiian sovereignty. They want something  
like what all other native-american tribes have. Tribal lands,  
self-policing jurisdiction, and such. And if history is any guide, I  
really can't think of a good reason not to give it to them. I say give  
them the mountain and lease it back from them.

Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 02:42:38 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:42:38 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <20190822191549.Horde.4eI0ZIHh9Q0ktBgyOPOmbeD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNQxKT5kU29FvB33qzf1TGqJVPXXAii2tTBZhmxZsQc2yw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:19 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Quoting Adrian Tymes:
> > Especially if, as seems to be the case, they are in fact lying about
> > their ancestral claims.
>
> How do you figure that? Every article I have read on the matter talks
> about their ancestral claim as a given.


To quote John:
> The difference is there is not a scrap of evidence native Hawaiians ever
lived on top of Mauna Kea, in fact there is no evidence any human being
ever stood on top of it before 1823 when a American missionary climbed it.
And the law is on the astronomers side, they won the 4 year legal battle


> Also it's not really about the
> mountain. It's about native-Hawaiian sovereignty. They want something
> like what all other native-american tribes have. Tribal lands,
> self-policing jurisdiction, and such. And if history is any guide, I
> really can't think of a good reason not to give it to them. I say give
> them the mountain and lease it back from them.
>

Do you think they would be satisfied with "tribal lands" consisting of a
previously-unused mountain, and that they would not simply use the same
tactic to try to claim more land?  Or that they would be able to police the
mountain effectively?

Better to give them some of the islands no one yet lives on - perhaps Nihoa
and Necker, where there is proof of ancestral claims and self-policing may
be within their means.
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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Aug 23 04:15:05 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 21:15:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <1527607673.770557.1566531579208@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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 <184797954.741877.1566525812401@mail.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <20190822211505.Horde.48IEWNIp83UCwsEAY3umQJ3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Adrian Tymes:


>> How do you figure that? Every article I have read on the matter talks?
>> about their ancestral claim as a given.
>
> To quote John:>?The difference is there is not a scrap of evidence  
> native Hawaiians ever lived on top of Mauna Kea, in fact there is no  
> evidence any human being ever stood on top of it before 1823 when a  
> American missionary climbed it. And the law is on the astronomers  
> side, they won the 4 year legal battle.

Since when do you need to live on land in order to own it? The point  
is before their colonization and integration into the U.S., the whole  
place belonged to them.

But of course the astronomers won. The State of Hawaii recognizes no  
native-Hawaiian tribal lands. That is the whole point of the protests.  
The mountain was simply chosen as a strategic location to draw their  
line in the proverbial sand. Blocking access to an important mountain  
on ancestral lands is political strategy.
?
>  Also it's not really about the?
> mountain. It's about native-Hawaiian sovereignty. They want something?
> like what all other native-american tribes have. Tribal lands,?
> self-policing jurisdiction, and such. And if history is any guide, I?
> really can't think of a good reason not to give it to them. I say give?
> them the mountain and lease it back from them.
>
>
> Do you think they would be satisfied with "tribal lands" consisting  
> of a previously-unused mountain, and that they would not simply use  
> the same tactic to try to claim more land?? Or that they would be  
> able to police the mountain effectively?

It seems to work in the rest of states. Many models to choose from.  
Haven't seen too many Sioux land grabs lately, so I don't see how  
Hawaiians would be any different. The would police it at least as  
effectively as any Indian Reservation in the U.S. polices its lands.  
Obviously the federal jurisdiction would supersede the native  
jurisdiction as I believe it does on Indian reservations.

> Better to give them some of the islands no one yet lives on -  
> perhaps Nihoa and Necker, where there is proof of ancestral claims  
> and self-policing may be within their means.

The reason nobody lives on those island is that they are unlivable.  
That is an insulting concession to them. They are not stupid after  
all, they had the strategic acumen to seize the high-ground, literally  
and figuratively, so I would offer them something better.

But, you can't know what they would settle for until you sit down and  
start bargaining with them. Ultimately the state of Hawaii has the  
guns but "justice for all" is part of our pledge as Americans, right?

Stuart LaForge




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 13:28:33 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:28:33 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <20190822211505.Horde.48IEWNIp83UCwsEAY3umQJ3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2+QVVFVr+n2t5FpFv0FgejV4gzPSSoEtLyDKJOH6++2Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:19 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> * > Since when do you need to live on land in order to own it?*


Oh I don't know, maybe when we decided that although everybody can see the
moon nobody owns it. Every Hawaiian could see the top of Mauna Kea but even
they don't claim they own it, they claim a all powerful invisible man owns
it and they must protect Him.


> > *The point is before their colonization* [...]


Which one, the Polynesian wave of colonization in 1120 that replaced the
earlier inhabitants who arrived about 500, or the European colonization in
1778?  A week ago I would have said that with the exception of Antarctica
and Greenland there is not a square foot of the Earth's surface that hasn't
been stolen by somebody who originally stole it from somebody else, so
astronomers shouldn't have to perform penance for all of history's evils;
but now Greenland is being fought over so it's just Antarctica.

 > *the whole  place belonged to them.*


And who exactly is "them"? What if a pureblood descendant of the pre 1120
people sided with the astronomers? If bloodlines is all that determines
property rights how many generations do we need to go back? Do we need to
go back and refight all of histories wars and figure out which side was on
the side of justice before we can determine who owns what today?

*> I say give them the mountain and lease it back from them.*


That will never work. Now that the thugs have had a taste of power and
demonstrated they have the ability to shut down the entire observatory
anytime they want despite what the law says they will never agree to allow
the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope. The astronomers will be
lucky if they just allow the observatory to remain open, the mob has
granted them permission to do so for the time being but they could withdraw
it at any time.


> >>  Quoting Adrian Tymes: "Better to give them some of the islands no one
> yet lives on -  perhaps Nihoa and Necker, where there is proof of ancestral
> claims and self-policing may be within their means."
>

> *> **The reason nobody lives on those island is that they are unlivable. *


Those islands are one hell of a lot more livable than Mauna Kea, it's hard
to breath at 13,803 feet and it's cold and dry as a bone, nothing and no
one has EVER lived there and until astronomers came along nobody even
wanted to live there, except of course for the invisible man.

 > *they had the strategic acumen to seize the high-ground, literally and
> figuratively,*


That is literally true but not figuratively. Tyrants and barbarians have
been using the military tactic of seizing the high ground from the
beginning of history, but that does not necessarily mean they occupy the
moral high ground.

> But, you can't know what they would settle for until you sit down
> and start bargaining with them.
>

Do you think that hasn't been tried??

>
> *Blocking access to an important mountain on ancestral lands is political
> strategy.*


I agree completely and the strategy was enormously successful, the Thirty
Meter Telescope is dead regardless of what the law may say. But I don't
think political theater is the highest form of human endeavor. So Stuart
perhaps you can answer a question I asked in my last post. How could
anybody who can see the beauty in Science and the magnificence of the
universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 13:59:36 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:59:36 -0400
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Electoral_College_Members_Can_Defy_Voters?=
	=?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99_Wishes=2C_Court_Rules?=
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1J8yLarrEnKT0FUMZbGwqhn=fHKumkNR7fyXy0g0bYxw@mail.gmail.com>

Electoral College Members Can Defy Voters? Wishes, Court Rules
<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/22/us/politics/electoral-college-faithless-elector.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage>

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 23 14:01:06 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:01:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2+QVVFVr+n2t5FpFv0FgejV4gzPSSoEtLyDKJOH6++2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007101d559bb$35bb2030$a1316090$@rainier66.com>

 

>?Those islands are one hell of a lot more livable than Mauna Kea, it's hard to breath at 13,803 feet and it's cold and dry as a bone, nothing and no one has EVER lived there and until astronomers came along nobody even wanted to live there, except of course for the invisible man? John

 

 

Even the invisible man left as soon as they finished the gym facility and established Title 9 sports at the University of Hawaii.  Since they you know where the invisible guy has been hanging out.

 

Something occurred to me when this discussion started.  I have been to the top of Mt. Whitney twice.  The first trip I camped up there two nights at about 12,400 ft.  The second trip I went up and back the same day, because I knew how uncomfortable it is up there.

 

The peak of Whitney is just over 14k, so it is comparable to Mauna Kea.  My brain was not fully operational up there and I can assure you, sleeping was most uncomfortable.  The astronomers wouldn?t want to hang out at that altitude very long, definitely wouldn?t want to spend the night up there where the pressure is about 0.6 atm.

 

If we created a pressure vessel with air locks, that might work.  They would do their maintenance tasks on the instruments at ambient pressure of course, for there is no practical way to pressurize that, but I can imagine a pressurized office and sleeping chamber.

 

Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room where the invisible man lives. 

 

spike

 

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 14:01:55 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:01:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] books
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa=OReq7dS7kAxwybU_1yERq3MUA7nFz-r_4BriZDA1Ng@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the recommendations on books- I bought several based on your
recommendations.  Chalmers, Silent Tao etc.

I do wonder, given all the math talent here, why no one mentioned Charles
Sanders Peirce.

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 14:49:46 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:49:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Greenland/was Re: Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2+QVVFVr+n2t5FpFv0FgejV4gzPSSoEtLyDKJOH6++2Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <435DEF92-F9E3-48EF-BC74-8025730E0E05@gmail.com>

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 6:28 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:19 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> > The point is before their colonization [...]
> 
> Which one, the Polynesian wave of colonization in 1120 that replaced the earlier inhabitants who arrived about 500, or the European colonization in 1778?  A week ago I would have said that with the exception of Antarctica and Greenland there is not a square foot of the Earth's surface that hasn't been stolen by somebody who originally stole it from somebody else, so astronomers shouldn't have to perform penance for all of history's evils; but now Greenland is being fought over so it's just Antarctica.

I?d bet, given that Greenland has human archaeological remains daring back to 2500 BCE and that the Norse settles parts of it about 900 CE and then the Inuit arrived around 1200 CE, that this wasn?t all peaceful coexistence. In fact, the standard history is that the Inuit Thule people forcibly displaced the Norse, though climate change probably also played a role. See:

https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/reverse-colonialism-how-inuit-conquered-vikings

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 14:57:04 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:57:04 -0700
Subject: [ExI] books
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa=OReq7dS7kAxwybU_1yERq3MUA7nFz-r_4BriZDA1Ng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa=OReq7dS7kAxwybU_1yERq3MUA7nFz-r_4BriZDA1Ng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429526A0-CA41-40C1-B27B-C399E0CCDBA0@gmail.com>

On Aug 23, 2019, at 7:01 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations on books- I bought several based on your recommendations.  Chalmers, Silent Tao etc.
> 
> I do wonder, given all the math talent here, why no one mentioned Charles Sanders Peirce.

Because Peirce tends to be forgotten overall? I?ve read a little of him ? mostly in quotation and on stuff like logic, meaning, and philosophy of math and of language. But I couldn?t give you much of a summary without rereading. ;)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 23 15:52:34 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 08:52:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <007101d559bb$35bb2030$a1316090$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <001501d559ca$c8136dc0$583a4940$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com> 



 

>?Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room where the invisible man lives.   spike

 

 

Another idea: to compensate for the elevated fire risk in an oxygen-enriched chamber, the proles could wear wool clothing.

 

I heard decades ago that wool doesn?t burn.  A few months ago, the same day I was testing that burning lint experiment (which I posted about here) I tried wool and discovered it is true.  As soon as you take away the heat source, the wool fails to sustain a flame.

 

Fun aside: I am an oddball size, so I can never buy pants directly off the rack without modification.  A couple weeks ago, I went looking for wool pants.  Discovered that army surplus Korean War vintage wool pants are still available today.  So I bought a pair with waist 27-31 (adjustable) and length 38.  Boiled them on the stove, put them in the dryer at the hottest setting, shrunk them to a perfect fit (34?).  So I bought 5 more pairs.

 

I thought it was so cool: these pants were manufactured on 7 March 1951.  In all those years, properly stored, the dimensions never changed a bit, the cloth didn?t degrade at all.  So the moisture content of the wool and any oils are chemically stable for nearly 70 years.  Then putting them in boiling water followed by a dryer on the hottest setting, they shrink to fit.  Cool!

 

And they won?t burn.  If I have a housefire and don?t notice because I am writing some oddball rambling ExI post, I am good to go.

 

spike

 

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 16:17:12 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:17:12 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <001501d559ca$c8136dc0$583a4940$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CALAdGNTZ5v6EUQFvQtWSk+QOUarZf7JkjWSTUgymjG+s+XxdKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
>
>
> >?Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched
> office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm
> car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient
> pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so
> that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room
> where the invisible man lives.   spike
>
>
>
>
>
> Another idea: to compensate for the elevated fire risk in an
> oxygen-enriched chamber, the proles could wear wool clothing.
>

Or, y'know, just don't enrich the oxygen.  Add nitrogen as well as oxygen,
keeping the fraction of oxygen the same as at ground level and making it 1
atmosphere pressure, similar to the ISS and Shuttle.  The airlock
environment itself could be useful for science, in addition to the
observatory.
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 16:38:38 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 11:38:38 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTZ5v6EUQFvQtWSk+QOUarZf7JkjWSTUgymjG+s+XxdKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv0reMM2hVnRyrRkxD45zkPzH56qpaSzixgwkhE6GjSvcw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY=vwqEMbRKvM5zyodxxcX3z99=7hbTfDXyiaue8Hbp_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I heard decades ago that wool doesn?t burn.  A few months ago, the same day
I was testing that burning lint experiment (which I posted about here) I
tried wool and discovered it is true.  As soon as you take away the heat
source, the wool fails to sustain a flame.  spike

But maybe you are wrong.  Long ago I took a tip from an artist and created
a textural effect on pine wood by burning it with an acetylene torch.  It
takes the soft wood out and leaves the grain.  Beautiful.  Then you brush
it, and put lots of Johnson's wax on it and buff it with a machine.  I have
built several things like that including an 8" x 12' book case.  However, I
learned to my astonishment that that torch would not start a fire on the
untreated wood.  Hitting the oxygen button to blow out the burned parts
yielded a brief flame which extinguished when I removed the torch.  I still
wonder about that.  If you can't start a fire with a torch on soft wood,
what does it take?

BTW - 38" length?  Koreans?  27" waist?  Nah.  You must have been kidding.
That would make them about 6' 9" on average.   bill w

bill w

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 11:20 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> >?Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched
>> office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm
>> car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient
>> pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so
>> that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room
>> where the invisible man lives.   spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Another idea: to compensate for the elevated fire risk in an
>> oxygen-enriched chamber, the proles could wear wool clothing.
>>
>
> Or, y'know, just don't enrich the oxygen.  Add nitrogen as well as oxygen,
> keeping the fraction of oxygen the same as at ground level and making it 1
> atmosphere pressure, similar to the ISS and Shuttle.  The airlock
> environment itself could be useful for science, in addition to the
> observatory.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 23 16:44:49 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:44:49 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTZ5v6EUQFvQtWSk+QOUarZf7JkjWSTUgymjG+s+XxdKw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <002c01d559d2$149c00b0$3dd40210$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown

 

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

From: spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com>  <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > 

 

>?Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room where the invisible man lives.   spike

 

 

Another idea: to compensate for the elevated fire risk in an oxygen-enriched chamber, the proles could wear wool clothing.

 

>?Or, y'know, just don't enrich the oxygen.  Add nitrogen as well as oxygen, keeping the fraction of oxygen the same as at ground level and making it 1 atmosphere pressure, similar to the ISS and Shuttle.  The airlock environment itself could be useful for science, in addition to the observatory.

 

 

Ja, that?s what I meant.  The atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and about 80% nitrogen (ja I know, there is about a percent which is everything else combined) so the notion is to enrich the oxygen so that the partial pressure of O2 is about 0.2 atm in the chamber, as it is on the ground, but the partial pressure of N2 is about 0.4 atm instead of 0.8, so the percentage of oxygen would be about a third instead of a fifth of the air, even though the pressure is lower.  The cooking would still be funky (85C boiling point ( I boiled the hell outta my ramen up there for about 15 minutes and it was still chewy as a bunch of rubber bands (but I was crazy starving so it still tasted great (particularly on the second night on my way back down (hey simple solution, use pressure cookers at the observatory.)))  In a 0.6 atm chamber the astronomers should still be able to concentrate in that environment.  

 

The fire risk would be elevated somewhat because there would be less inert nitrogen available to carry away heat, even though the partial pressure of oxygen is about the same.

 

The reason I might lean away from a pressurized environment is that it would take a lot of sturdy building material and crews, giving the protestors even more to complain about.  They would argue the invisible man has never needed any of this stuff (they deny what we all know already: that guy lives in the women?s dormitory down at the U of Hawaii now.)

 

spike

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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 16:55:08 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 09:55:08 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <002c01d559d2$149c00b0$3dd40210$@rainier66.com>
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On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 9:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 8:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> *From:* spike at rainier66.com <spike at rainier66.com>
>
>
>
> >?Failing that, we could make a closed system oxygen-enriched
> office/sleeping space.  It would not be pressurized but more like a warm
> car on a cold day, with that kind of doors, a rubber seal but at ambient
> pressure.  Instead of about 20% oxygen in there it would be about 33%, so
> that the oxygen level is about the same as down at the women?s locker room
> where the invisible man lives.   spike
>
>
>
>
>
> Another idea: to compensate for the elevated fire risk in an
> oxygen-enriched chamber, the proles could wear wool clothing.
>
>
>
> >?Or, y'know, just don't enrich the oxygen.  Add nitrogen as well as
> oxygen, keeping the fraction of oxygen the same as at ground level and
> making it 1 atmosphere pressure, similar to the ISS and Shuttle.  The
> airlock environment itself could be useful for science, in addition to the
> observatory.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, that?s what I meant.  The atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and about 80%
> nitrogen (ja I know, there is about a percent which is everything else
> combined) so the notion is to enrich the oxygen so that the partial
> pressure of O2 is about 0.2 atm in the chamber, as it is on the ground, but
> the partial pressure of N2 is about 0.4 atm instead of 0.8, so the
> percentage of oxygen would be about a third instead of a fifth of the air,
> even though the pressure is lower.
>
>
No, we are still talking different things.  I mean around 0.2 atm O2 and
0.8 atm N2 in the chamber.


> The reason I might lean away from a pressurized environment is that it
> would take a lot of sturdy building material and crews, giving the
> protestors even more to complain about.  They would argue the invisible man
> has never needed any of this stuff (they deny what we all know already:
> that guy lives in the women?s dormitory down at the U of Hawaii now.)
>

Better a one-time increase in building costs than an ongoing maintenance
problem and hazard to the humans sleeping there.
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 23 17:23:26 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 10:23:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY=vwqEMbRKvM5zyodxxcX3z99=7hbTfDXyiaue8Hbp_Q@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <008e01d559d7$7972b920$6c582b60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat



>?If you can't start a fire with a torch on soft wood, what does it take?

 

That will start a fire if you hold the torch on there long enough.  You need to get the wood really really hot.

 

 

 

>?BTW - 38" length?  Koreans?  27" waist?  Nah.  You must have been kidding.  That would make them about 6' 9" on average.   bill w

 

bill w

 

 

These were for use by American soldiers fighting in the Korean war.  They were made in four sizes: small, medium, large and small long.  

 

On a whim, I decided to order the small long.  Sure enough, measured it, waist 27-31 adjustable (and I am right in the middle of that range) with length 38? and the cool part is? they already had a factory hem, which was very well done and I was able to keep by shrinking them to size (34?).

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 17:35:39 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 13:35:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <008e01d559d7$7972b920$6c582b60$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2cFLO-Ek0+mzNH8oi3_4BZsSE2qV9g4A0gfBGyXP61Zuw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 1:26 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>
> *>?*If you can't start a fire with a torch on soft wood, what does it
> take?
>
>
>
> That will start a fire if you hold the torch on there long enough.  You
> need to get the wood really really hot.
>

Starting a fire is not so much a question of temperature as it is about
getting oxygen to the burning wood. If you have a 12 x 12 beam, you're
going to have a hell of a time getting it to burn sustainably without
starting with smaller pieces. That's why one starts campfires with kindling
and gradually add larger pieces.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 22:26:37 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 17:26:37 -0500
Subject: [ExI] math genius
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa4DFuq6P__VT5j4nuMr2xNECZCMkmD1qLu8SaS1oOaUg@mail.gmail.com>

Like other geniuses, math ones peak early, like in the 20s.  OK, so that's
creativity.  How about just the ability to use math and choose the proper
math for the problems at hand?  Does that just get better and better?

bill
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 23 22:36:54 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 15:36:54 -0700
Subject: [ExI] math genius
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa4DFuq6P__VT5j4nuMr2xNECZCMkmD1qLu8SaS1oOaUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa4DFuq6P__VT5j4nuMr2xNECZCMkmD1qLu8SaS1oOaUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA137EF6-2F1E-47EA-B256-6DE0C9642E21@gmail.com>

This sounds like a question for Quora?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Aug 23, 2019, at 3:26 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Like other geniuses, math ones peak early, like in the 20s.  OK, so that's creativity.  How about just the ability to use math and choose the proper math for the problems at hand?  Does that just get better and better?
> 
> bill
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 23 23:01:05 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 16:01:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] math genius
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa4DFuq6P__VT5j4nuMr2xNECZCMkmD1qLu8SaS1oOaUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa4DFuq6P__VT5j4nuMr2xNECZCMkmD1qLu8SaS1oOaUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004d01d55a06$a5295270$ef7bf750$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] math genius

 

Like other geniuses, math ones peak early, like in the 20s.  OK, so that's creativity.  How about just the ability to use math and choose the proper math for the problems at hand?  Does that just get better and better?

 

Bill

 

 

 

It depends on the person.  I have gotten better over the years, and advanced long after college was in the mirror.

 

College is a time which is too busy to do much besides what is required.  After that is over, there is more leisure.

 

spike

 

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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Aug 24 20:47:28 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 13:47:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
Message-ID: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting John Clark:

> *> I say give them the mountain and lease it back from them.*
>
> That will never work. Now that the thugs have had a taste of power and
> demonstrated they have the ability to shut down the entire observatory
> anytime they want despite what the law says they will never agree to allow
> the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope. The astronomers will be
> lucky if they just allow the observatory to remain open, the mob has
> granted them permission to do so for the time being but they could withdraw
> it at any time.

If they able to shut down the mountain whenever they want, they  
effectively own it any ways. At least my solution gives them a  
financial incentive to keep the observatory open.

>
>
>>>> Quoting Adrian Tymes: "Better to give them some of the islands no one
>> yet lives on -  perhaps Nihoa and Necker, where there is proof of ancestral
>> claims and self-policing may be within their means."
>>
>
>> *> **The reason nobody lives on those island is that they are unlivable. *
>
> Those islands are one hell of a lot more livable than Mauna Kea, it's hard
> to breath at 13,803 feet and it's cold and dry as a bone, nothing and no
> one has EVER lived there and until astronomers came along nobody even
> wanted to live there, except of course for the invisible man.

Bringing the right invisible man to indigenous populations was one of  
the favorite excuses for colonizing them in the first place.

>> *they had the strategic acumen to seize the high-ground, literally and
>> figuratively,*
>
> That is literally true but not figuratively. Tyrants and barbarians have
> been using the military tactic of seizing the high ground from the
> beginning of history, but that does not necessarily mean they occupy the
> moral high ground.

>
>> But, you can't know what they would settle for until you sit down
>> and start bargaining with them.
>>
>
> Do you think that hasn't been tried??

If the astronomers were the only ones to try bargaining with them then  
it was bound to fail. The astronomers do not have the authority to  
grant the natives tribal lands. It will take state and federal  
governments to get involved.

>
>>
>> *Blocking access to an important mountain on ancestral lands is political
>> strategy.*
>
> I agree completely and the strategy was enormously successful, the Thirty
> Meter Telescope is dead regardless of what the law may say. But I don't
> think political theater is the highest form of human endeavor. So Stuart
> perhaps you can answer a question I asked in my last post. How could
> anybody who can see the beauty in Science and the magnificence of the
> universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?


Unfortunately whereas native Hawaiians comprise a minority,  
astronomers comprise an even smaller minority. In a democracy, that  
means they get screwed. I too want the 30-meter telescope to be built.  
I just think this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. Surely a sky-god  
and a telescope can coexist in some win-win fashion on that  
mountain-top.

Stuart LaForge




From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 24 21:44:59 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 17:44:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:51 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

* > If they able to shut down the mountain whenever they want,
> they effectively own it*


Yep, the mob is running the show.


> * > Bringing the right invisible man to indigenous populations was one of
> the favorite excuses for colonizing them in the first place.*
>

The European invisible man is a different invisible man than the invisible
man that lives on the mountain, that's a Hawaiian invisible man.

* > I too want the 30-meter telescope to be built.*


But it will never be built because Aquaman and Dwayne (The Rock) Johnson
are just too strong. The astronomers should cut their losses and stop
wasting their time on a hopeless cause.


>  > *I just think this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.*


But the ignorant dimwits blocking the road would say it is a zero-sum game
and they've won and science lost, or at least they would say that if they
knew what the term "zero-sum game" meant, which of course they don't.

John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 01:28:00 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:28:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>

I think that you?re making this unnecessarily rude. Having strong religious opinions doesn?t make someone a drooling idiot.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 24, 2019, at 4:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:51 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > If they able to shut down the mountain whenever they want, they effectively own it
> 
> Yep, the mob is running the show.
> 
>> > Bringing the right invisible man to indigenous populations was one of  
>> the favorite excuses for colonizing them in the first place.
> 
> The European invisible man is a different invisible man than the invisible man that lives on the mountain, that's a Hawaiian invisible man.
> 
>> > I too want the 30-meter telescope to be built.
> 
> But it will never be built because Aquaman and Dwayne (The Rock) Johnson are just too strong. The astronomers should cut their losses and stop wasting their time on a hopeless cause. 
>  
>>  > I just think this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.
> 
> But the ignorant dimwits blocking the road would say it is a zero-sum game and they've won and science lost, or at least they would say that if they knew what the term "zero-sum game" meant, which of course they don't.
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 01:48:30 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:48:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa_VpfC9ugYaqt71UHOqVtCOsYy51bjhLnCk4DvwNUUDA@mail.gmail.com>

Why rant and rave and call names anyway?  In the history of mankind it has
never helped anyone and stresses the author of it.   Has it ever helped
your mashed thumb?  There are better ways to express strong opinions. Find
who is responsible and hunt them down and kill them.  bill w

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 8:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think that you?re making this unnecessarily rude. Having strong
> religious opinions doesn?t make someone a drooling idiot.
>
> SR Ballard
>
> On Aug 24, 2019, at 4:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:51 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> * > If they able to shut down the mountain whenever they want,
>> they effectively own it*
>
>
> Yep, the mob is running the show.
>
>
>> * > Bringing the right invisible man to indigenous populations was one
>> of  the favorite excuses for colonizing them in the first place.*
>>
>
> The European invisible man is a different invisible man than the
> invisible man that lives on the mountain, that's a Hawaiian invisible man.
>
> * > I too want the 30-meter telescope to be built.*
>
>
> But it will never be built because Aquaman and Dwayne (The Rock) Johnson
> are just too strong. The astronomers should cut their losses and stop
> wasting their time on a hopeless cause.
>
>
>>  > *I just think this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game.*
>
>
> But the ignorant dimwits blocking the road would say it is a zero-sum
> game and they've won and science lost, or at least they would say that if
> they knew what the term "zero-sum game" meant, which of course they don't.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 08:45:16 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 04:45:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1KaYGiVx0-oqrti0c_DELfnRdjAMVA4ajNa-mKZRYHGA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 9:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *I think that you?re making this unnecessarily rude.*
>

There is a time to be polite and a time to be rude, if killing one of the
most important scientific instruments in the world isn't the time to
express anger toward the ignorant barbarians who wrecked it when is the
time? And I'm still waiting for an answer to a question I've asked twice
before: how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the
magnificence of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these
sphincters?


> *> Having strong religious opinions doesn?t make someone a drooling idiot.*
>

They have adroitly demonstrated that it sure as hell helps!

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 09:45:38 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 05:45:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa_VpfC9ugYaqt71UHOqVtCOsYy51bjhLnCk4DvwNUUDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1hjApaLgurCv-K=DVVFn7BW38tS0ieZGjFtO=mTj5yWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 9:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Why rant and rave and call names anyway?  In the history of mankind it
> has never helped anyone and stresses the author of it.
>

So William are we to believe you've never gotten angry in your life? If
anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that emotion, why
did it evolve?

John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 13:40:06 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:40:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1KaYGiVx0-oqrti0c_DELfnRdjAMVA4ajNa-mKZRYHGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CD3BCA22-1022-46BE-AC53-A617535F243C@gmail.com>

You?re not actually expressing it TOWARD them, only ABOUT them 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 25, 2019, at 3:45 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 9:32 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > I think that you?re making this unnecessarily rude.
> 
> There is a time to be polite and a time to be rude, if killing one of the most important scientific instruments in the world isn't the time to express anger toward the ignorant barbarians who wrecked it when is the time? And I'm still waiting for an answer to a question I've asked twice before: how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the magnificence of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?
> 
>> > Having strong religious opinions doesn?t make someone a drooling idiot.
> 
> They have adroitly demonstrated that it sure as hell helps!
> 
>  John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 14:30:23 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 09:30:23 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1hjApaLgurCv-K=DVVFn7BW38tS0ieZGjFtO=mTj5yWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEa_VpfC9ugYaqt71UHOqVtCOsYy51bjhLnCk4DvwNUUDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1hjApaLgurCv-K=DVVFn7BW38tS0ieZGjFtO=mTj5yWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbTuwUZ=bJzLMjqrbJB4xCpSj82Y2grc3c2SkZ90PwrNA@mail.gmail.com>

So William are we to believe you've never gotten angry in your life? If
anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that emotion, why
did it evolve?

John K Clark

Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight or
flight-  in other words, it helps in the immediate danger situation.
Otherwise we should try to eliminate it as, as I said, it stresses the body
unnecessarily because it does not help in any way.  It often leads to
irrational behavior.  Look at people who react with anger when they get
drunk - just looking for a fight and often finding one and jail later.  Has
there been a case of wife beating not fueled by anger?

To me it's like a craving for salt or fat:  helpful in our earlier
evolutionary history, but bad for us now.   One study I read said that one
bout of anger took a week off your life.

And it's Bill if you please.

bill w

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:49 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 9:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > Why rant and rave and call names anyway?  In the history of mankind it
>> has never helped anyone and stresses the author of it.
>>
>
> So William are we to believe you've never gotten angry in your life? If
> anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that emotion, why
> did it evolve?
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 14:34:54 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 09:34:54 -0500
Subject: [ExI] anger II
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZReoDjufgsisYa0YzFpL+yAybTeQzt4PVXJ9-+BAAzSg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I have gotten angry many times in my life.  Inherited a quick temper
from my Dad, I think.

And it has never done me any good at all and luckily nothing really bad,
although bad drivers can still light me up.  At one point I carried a gun
in my car to shoot out the tires of the bad guys.  Took it out when I
realized that I might actually do that in a fit of road rage.  Anger needs
to be avoided if possible and managed thoroughly if not.  Get up and leave
has worked for me.

bill w
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 14:57:00 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:57:00 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
Message-ID: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>

John has raised the question -
"how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the magnificence
of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?"
---------------

Apart from requiring attendance at Aunt Agatha's School of Charm and Etiquette,
this is a direct statement of consequentialism.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism>
Quote:
Consequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding
that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any
judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from
a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from
acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.
---------

The obvious problem with this is that it is saying that the end
justifies the means.
And this can be used to justify any morally dubious conduct.

Definition of "the end justifies the means" -
?used to say that a desired result is so good or important that any
method, even a morally bad one, may be used to achieve it.
"They believe that the end justifies the means and will do anything to get
their candidate elected".
------------

Therefore this requires that they must define what they mean by "good"
consequences and how this "good" offsets the bad consequences of all the
"justified" evil or illegal actions.
As with all philosophy people usually compromise. Absolute rules need
exceptions to deal with the rough and tumble of human existence.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 15:05:59 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:05:59 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbTuwUZ=bJzLMjqrbJB4xCpSj82Y2grc3c2SkZ90PwrNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv3wKNr6o97JYD5B8JWGsBfFHx6V9OdW0bT5Oyf2Rj45=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight or
> flight-
>

Exactly, so the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to
reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you
think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With
such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my
choice.

John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 15:09:28 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:09:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbTuwUZ=bJzLMjqrbJB4xCpSj82Y2grc3c2SkZ90PwrNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAJPayv062DvTHvRVa=YpZ2MYKt4KF_ymBm1Mr41APCAiFfqtvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2e_dYCoxWWBt8FBn0SAX=BdWLPZMsELG_Woqfi8XzCDOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight or
> flight-  in other words, it helps in the immediate danger situation.
>

Yes, anger should be rare these days, but it's on the rise as people like
John become rage addicts.

To me it's like a craving for salt or fat:  helpful in our earlier
> evolutionary history, but bad for us now.
>

Both dietary salt and fat are critical for optimal health. To little salt
is as bad as too much, if not worse. The fats we consume the most, seed
oils, are highly inflammatory and contribute to countless illnesses that
were rare a hundred years ago. Where the modern diet runs into trouble is
hyperpalatable and hyperavailable processed foods accompanied by a
sedentary lifestyle and the stresses of modern life, including sleep
deprivation and rage addiction.

-Dave
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 15:46:55 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:46:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3wKNr6o97JYD5B8JWGsBfFHx6V9OdW0bT5Oyf2Rj45=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY9GPSveq+GkSMpNS+f4aL4GszY80FTnHprYb+a9oSgqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight
>> or flight-
>>
>
> Exactly, so the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune
> to reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't
> you think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide?
> With such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've
> made my choice.
>
> John K Clark
>

Fear or anger?  That's all you can think of?  Emotional responses?  Which
do absolutely no good and may actually harm you?  Meet irrationality with
irrationality?  That's a pretty sad statement from a person who can use
their intelligence as well you can, when you do.  bill w

> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 15:51:30 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:51:30 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZguKBVVCQ4CPzABwOuCyB3YtCmOSkrri3CGH3d=YPkWw@mail.gmail.com>

The obvious problem with this is that it is saying that the end
justifies the means.
And this can be used to justify any morally dubious conduct.  bill k

But this is a contradiction.  If the end justifies the means, then the
means are not morally dubious.  Logical error here.
(no, I am not a consequentialist)

bill w

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:00 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> John has raised the question -
> "how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the magnificence
> of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?"
> ---------------
>
> Apart from requiring attendance at Aunt Agatha's School of Charm and
> Etiquette,
> this is a direct statement of consequentialism.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism>
> Quote:
> Consequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding
> that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any
> judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from
> a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from
> acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.
> ---------
>
> The obvious problem with this is that it is saying that the end
> justifies the means.
> And this can be used to justify any morally dubious conduct.
>
> Definition of "the end justifies the means" -
> ?used to say that a desired result is so good or important that any
> method, even a morally bad one, may be used to achieve it.
> "They believe that the end justifies the means and will do anything to get
> their candidate elected".
> ------------
>
> Therefore this requires that they must define what they mean by "good"
> consequences and how this "good" offsets the bad consequences of all the
> "justified" evil or illegal actions.
> As with all philosophy people usually compromise. Absolute rules need
> exceptions to deal with the rough and tumble of human existence.
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 18:16:22 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:16:22 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZguKBVVCQ4CPzABwOuCyB3YtCmOSkrri3CGH3d=YPkWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAL_armhegNp4g_UDcdbjzbBsWkQay=PH61krzLCq6P-vmjB+Mw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:59, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>
> But this is a contradiction.  If the end justifies the means, then the means are not morally dubious.  Logical error here.
> (no, I am not a consequentialist)
>
> bill w
>

That's the point. Consequentialists can choose what seems to them to
be an extremely "good" objective and that gives them licence to do
anything that helps to achieve that objective. No matter how "evil"
their actions might be. Though of course they should limit themselves
to causing less damage than the "good" that they are aiming for.



BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 18:26:11 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 13:26:11 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhegNp4g_UDcdbjzbBsWkQay=PH61krzLCq6P-vmjB+Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbqGHpkN3NVvtKg6qoxpTHF6EyyZmpYtCoKZRc1ajCVyg@mail.gmail.com>

That's the point. Consequentialists can choose what seems to them to
be an extremely "good" objective and that gives them licence to do
anything that helps to achieve that objective. No matter how "evil"
their actions might be. Though of course they should limit themselves
to causing less damage than the "good" that they are aiming for.

But you are still judging them by your standards, which I assume are based
on intent (?).  I agree with you all the way,
but consequence only or intent only does not work for me, the first for the
reasons you are giving, and the second
for inability to prove intent.  All the more reason to teach moral
reasoning starting very young - in schools.

bill w


On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 1:20 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:59, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> >
> > But this is a contradiction.  If the end justifies the means, then the
> means are not morally dubious.  Logical error here.
> > (no, I am not a consequentialist)
> >
> > bill w
> >
>
> That's the point. Consequentialists can choose what seems to them to
> be an extremely "good" objective and that gives them licence to do
> anything that helps to achieve that objective. No matter how "evil"
> their actions might be. Though of course they should limit themselves
> to causing less damage than the "good" that they are aiming for.
>
>
>
> BillK
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 19:27:34 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:27:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY9GPSveq+GkSMpNS+f4aL4GszY80FTnHprYb+a9oSgqg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:

>>  the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to
>> reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you
>> think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With
>> such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my
>> choice.
>>
>
> > Fear or anger?  That's all you can think of?
>

Not necessarily. If my opponent was a scientist with a theory in opposition
to mine neither fear or anger would be appropriate, fear wouldn't help me
in a debate and if he's right he would have done me a favor but pointing
out the error in my theory so I'd be grateful. However if my opponent is
like the Hawaiian protestors who are illegally blocking the road to prevent
one of the most important scientific instruments in the world and are doing
it for a idiotic reason then yes, fight or flight are the only things I can
think of.


> *> Emotional responses? [...]  Meet irrationality with irrationality?*
>

Ultimately the responses of any intelligent animal or AI are emotional,
there is no purely logical reason to pick knowledge over ignorance or
wisdom over stupidity or even existence over nonexistence. Without emotions
there would be no reason to do X and not Y, there would be no reason to do
anything. That's why it's so silly to expect that a computer might be
intelligent but it could never be emotional. Emotion is easy but
intelligence is hard, at least that's what Evolution found, it came up with
emotion during the Cambrian explosion but it took Evolution another 540
million years to come up with our ridiculously enlarged cerebral cortex and
the sort of intelligence of which we are proud. And that's also why Star
Trek's Mr. Spock and Mr. Data are so silly.

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 19:43:51 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:43:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] anger II
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZReoDjufgsisYa0YzFpL+yAybTeQzt4PVXJ9-+BAAzSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZReoDjufgsisYa0YzFpL+yAybTeQzt4PVXJ9-+BAAzSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3yUayBt87qvVLhbyu4gpSW5Gtn=cQo-bMpD=TSYhBtKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM William Flynn Wallace  <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Yes, I have gotten angry many times in my life.  Inherited a quick temper
> from my Dad, I think.
> And it has never done me any good at all and luckily nothing really bad,
> although bad drivers can still light me up.  At one point I carried a gun
> in my car to shoot out the tires of the bad guys.  Took it out when I
> realized that I might actually do that in a fit of road rage.
>

I can honestly say that in my 70 years I have never gotten that angry and
never even gotten close, but perhaps that has nothing to do with me and
I've just been lucky and haven't been provoked as much as you have. I'm
about as angry as I ever get toward those Hawaiian protestors but I don't
feel the slightest urge to actually shoot anybody. Perhaps for that reason
I seem to be less afraid of losing control than you.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 20:26:21 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:26:21 -0500
Subject: [ExI] anger II
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3yUayBt87qvVLhbyu4gpSW5Gtn=cQo-bMpD=TSYhBtKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZReoDjufgsisYa0YzFpL+yAybTeQzt4PVXJ9-+BAAzSg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaP20CqzKDkrKKxar8vcyzEb=dQfcaP0Lc0jH8WOccB3Q@mail.gmail.com>

to John - 'hunt them down and shoot them' was a joke - which flopped I
suppose
Injustices and irrationality do bother me, but maybe being a psychologist
and understanding
those things makes me somewhat accepting that those things are going to
occur and there's
little I can do about it.  You can't do anything about the telescope any
more than you can prevent
mudslides in Bangladesh, however terrible those may be.  I just see you
wasting your mental energy
on hopeless cases.    bill w

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 2:47 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:42 AM William Flynn Wallace  <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > Yes, I have gotten angry many times in my life.  Inherited a quick
>> temper from my Dad, I think.
>> And it has never done me any good at all and luckily nothing really bad,
>> although bad drivers can still light me up.  At one point I carried a gun
>> in my car to shoot out the tires of the bad guys.  Took it out when I
>> realized that I might actually do that in a fit of road rage.
>>
>
> I can honestly say that in my 70 years I have never gotten that angry and
> never even gotten close, but perhaps that has nothing to do with me and
> I've just been lucky and haven't been provoked as much as you have. I'm
> about as angry as I ever get toward those Hawaiian protestors but I don't
> feel the slightest urge to actually shoot anybody. Perhaps for that reason
> I seem to be less afraid of losing control than you.
>
>  John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 20:32:27 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:32:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2GvzkhrFZAMjFff6cZriKVdA79P7aCu8Kv29nA-eXvLw@mail.gmail.com>
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Obviously you know more about the necessity of that telescope than I do,
but I do have to be skeptical that it is needed at all.  In any case, are
there any things we could find out from it if it were built that we cannot
find out by other means?  Is that the only location from which we can learn
whatever they want to learn?  And those things - are they important in any
practical way?  Will humans be worse off?  That's my question.  bill w

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 2:31 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:50 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>:
>
> >>  the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to
>>> reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you
>>> think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With
>>> such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my
>>> choice.
>>>
>>
>> > Fear or anger?  That's all you can think of?
>>
>
> Not necessarily. If my opponent was a scientist with a theory in
> opposition to mine neither fear or anger would be appropriate, fear
> wouldn't help me in a debate and if he's right he would have done me a
> favor but pointing out the error in my theory so I'd be grateful. However
> if my opponent is like the Hawaiian protestors who are illegally blocking
> the road to prevent one of the most important scientific instruments in the
> world and are doing it for a idiotic reason then yes, fight or flight are
> the only things I can think of.
>
>
>> *> Emotional responses? [...]  Meet irrationality with irrationality?*
>>
>
> Ultimately the responses of any intelligent animal or AI are emotional,
> there is no purely logical reason to pick knowledge over ignorance or
> wisdom over stupidity or even existence over nonexistence. Without emotions
> there would be no reason to do X and not Y, there would be no reason to do
> anything. That's why it's so silly to expect that a computer might be
> intelligent but it could never be emotional. Emotion is easy but
> intelligence is hard, at least that's what Evolution found, it came up with
> emotion during the Cambrian explosion but it took Evolution another 540
> million years to come up with our ridiculously enlarged cerebral cortex and
> the sort of intelligence of which we are proud. And that's also why Star
> Trek's Mr. Spock and Mr. Data are so silly.
>
>  John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 21:44:04 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:44:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3wKNr6o97JYD5B8JWGsBfFHx6V9OdW0bT5Oyf2Rj45=Q@mail.gmail.com>
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John Clark, if that?s really how you feel, why are you not taking your own position now and heading to Hawaii to fight a mass of ?ignorant lawless thugs?? I think that it is, perhaps, because you realize that it is what you wish that your position actually was. 

If you?re fearful of them because uncontrolled mobs are scary (and they are) then quit hiding behind a fake case of anger and get in touch with what you?re actually feeling: fear.

If anger is the correct response, what do you have to show for it? What has anger actually prompted you to do which will correct this situation? Or is it just an empty, irrational daydream/power fantasy?

SR Ballard

> On Aug 25, 2019, at 10:05 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight or flight- 
> 
> Exactly, so the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my choice.
> 
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 22:33:06 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 15:33:06 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing digestion
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5L351LyS2iMymb=XgUh5guK0nVc9g-aDD6g+E0mtS0pg@mail.gmail.com>

An amusing consideration is that some groups of humans outsourced part
of their digestion by eating dairy products.  Those products are
derived from grass which, of course, humans cannot digest.

This happened over the last 8000 years.

Keith

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 23:00:11 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 19:00:11 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbomZkCgB8dPnvUAA32EMTZrZqERyMPZog289URBiTsWQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:37 PM William Flynn Wallace  <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> are there any things we could find out from it if it were built that we
> cannot find out by other means?
>

I suppose when our descendants look back on it a century or two from now it
won't make a lot of difference, but that huge telescope could see things 10
times dimmer than anything we can see today and I want to know about those
wonders now when I'm still alive. And that mighty telescope would be coming
online right about now and we would be discovering those wonders now except
for one thing, construction briefly started 4 years ago but then barbarians
shut it down.

> Is that the only location from which we can learn whatever they want to
> learn?
>

The 3 best astronomical observing positions on the surface of this planet
are Dome C in central Antarctica, the Atacama desert in Chile, and Mauna
Kea in Hawaii. Mauna Kea is the only one in the northern hemisphere and
that's half the universe.

> And those things - are they important in any practical way?
>

Back in the 1990's Fermilab was building the Superconducting Super
Collider, it would have dwarfed the LHC which discovered the Higgs particle
20 years later. The machine was about half finished when congress started
talking about canceling it. Fermilab director Robert Wilson went to
congress to try to talk them out of it. A senator asked him if it could be
useful in national defence. Dr. Wilson really wanted them to finish the
machine but he was a very honest man so he told them the truth, "No" he
said "the Superconducting Super Collider has nothing to do with defending
our country except to help make it worth defending".

Perhaps he should have lied and said it would make a nifty death ray
because the machine was canceled and the half finished tunnels that would
have housed it are now used to grow mushrooms.

 John K Clark
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 23:07:00 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:07:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0j7hJ_Jpi0XqATuhdhh2g0WQd2H6X2X0V4ZExY_gf1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <3C6FC404-3B76-4899-879D-8B9BC23D5661@gmail.com>

>now used to make mushrooms because it wasn?t a Magic death ray.

Wow, I?m glad I was too young to understand at that time. I would be even more upset about that than I am about the telescope. 

SR Ballard

> On Aug 25, 2019, at 6:00 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:37 PM William Flynn Wallace  <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > are there any things we could find out from it if it were built that we cannot find out by other means?
> 
> I suppose when our descendants look back on it a century or two from now it won't make a lot of difference, but that huge telescope could see things 10 times dimmer than anything we can see today and I want to know about those wonders now when I'm still alive. And that mighty telescope would be coming online right about now and we would be discovering those wonders now except for one thing, construction briefly started 4 years ago but then barbarians shut it down.  
> 
>> > Is that the only location from which we can learn whatever they want to learn? 
> 
> The 3 best astronomical observing positions on the surface of this planet are Dome C in central Antarctica, the Atacama desert in Chile, and Mauna Kea in Hawaii. Mauna Kea is the only one in the northern hemisphere and that's half the universe. 
> 
>> > And those things - are they important in any practical way? 
> 
> Back in the 1990's Fermilab was building the Superconducting Super Collider, it would have dwarfed the LHC which discovered the Higgs particle 20 years later. The machine was about half finished when congress started talking about canceling it. Fermilab director Robert Wilson went to congress to try to talk them out of it. A senator asked him if it could be useful in national defence. Dr. Wilson really wanted them to finish the machine but he was a very honest man so he told them the truth, "No" he said "the Superconducting Super Collider has nothing to do with defending our country except to help make it worth defending".
> 
> Perhaps he should have lied and said it would make a nifty death ray because the machine was canceled and the half finished tunnels that would have housed it are now used to grow mushrooms. 
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Sun Aug 25 23:39:47 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 16:39:47 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing digestion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5L351LyS2iMymb=XgUh5guK0nVc9g-aDD6g+E0mtS0pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5L351LyS2iMymb=XgUh5guK0nVc9g-aDD6g+E0mtS0pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FB19FB25-DE70-46B6-B0ED-FE6F4A757EA6@gmail.com>

> On Aug 25, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Keith Henson via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> An amusing consideration is that some groups of humans outsourced part
> of their digestion by eating dairy products.  Those products are
> derived from grass which, of course, humans cannot digest.

That?s a little loose way of calling it outsourcing. I mean by ghetto reckoning a cheetah has outsourced its digestion if grass by eating meat. I think the metaphor would be stronger here if humans were grass eaters who never ate any firm of dairy and switched to dairy as a way of weaning off grass. 

> This happened over the last 8000 years.

The whole ?secondary products? revolution is interesting and there?s some controversy over it. I haven?t kept up with the latest work on this.

Cooking and other food preparation techniques that long preceded the use of secondary products ? probably going back 500,000 years or more ? seem closer to outsourcing digestion. Cooking and many other preparation techniques tend to substitute for parts of digestion and make easier for the rest.  _Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human_ by Richard Wrangham makes a case for this and for its affect on human evolution. He compares how little time and energy humans have to put into chewing and other aspects of digestion compared to close relatives like chimps and more distant relatives like carnivores.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst



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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 03:12:32 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 20:12:32 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Outsourcing digestion
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5L351LyS2iMymb=XgUh5guK0nVc9g-aDD6g+E0mtS0pg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5L351LyS2iMymb=XgUh5guK0nVc9g-aDD6g+E0mtS0pg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSPYCK0DVYJ1prtY2PiPPrAoQ5gqFwm8wWd687jGgUMow@mail.gmail.com>

So we've outsourced our solar absorption to plants?

Given that plants predated animals.  If anything, plants outsourced carbon
dioxide production to animals.

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 3:36 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> An amusing consideration is that some groups of humans outsourced part
> of their digestion by eating dairy products.  Those products are
> derived from grass which, of course, humans cannot digest.
>
> This happened over the last 8000 years.
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 08:26:07 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 01:26:07 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0j7hJ_Jpi0XqATuhdhh2g0WQd2H6X2X0V4ZExY_gf1Gg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 4:03 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> A senator asked him if it could be useful in national defence. Dr. Wilson
> really wanted them to finish the machine but he was a very honest man so he
> told them the truth, "No" he said "the Superconducting Super Collider has
> nothing to do with defending our country except to help make it worth
> defending".
>
> Perhaps he should have lied and said it would make a nifty death ray
> because the machine was canceled and the half finished tunnels that would
> have housed it are now used to grow mushrooms.
>

Actually, he could have done it without lying - and arguably, he did lie by
omission.

A better response might have been, "This will help lay the groundwork for
new understandings of physics that, as with most basic physics, may have
many applications including national defense.  Indeed, advancing the
understanding of physics has enabled many of our modern defense
capabilities.  Military applications is not my field of expertise, so if
you wanted a list of possibilities you would have to call in one of their
scientists to speculate - or better yet, have them consult with me so we
can get you a fuller answer.  But the simple answer is yes, it could be
useful in national defense."

If we want to take the same applications approach to astronomy, the
currently most touted applications are:

* Asteroid defense.  It would be useful to see the next Tunguska before it
explodes and makes people think a stealth nuclear attack just happened,
jumping certain less-than-rational foreign leaders (don't mention Trump
unless you're sure none of the people you're talking to are Trump
defenders; there's no need to, with the leadership in North Korea and
certain other places) into possibly firing off an actual nuclear strike in
retaliation.  Nobody wins a nuclear war, except by preventing it from
happening; if the members of Congress have any doubt about that, they can
just ask anyone in any of our military branches' upper management.  This by
itself could help keep the human race going through the current
international tensions; there are not many US government funded projects
that can even remotely make that claim.

* Asteroid mining.  Surely the members of Congress have seen the news
articles about trillion dollar asteroids out there - even with depreciation
should one of them actually be mined, that's still lots of billions of
dollars, and eventually lots of tax revenue when someone finally pulls it
off.  But before they can be mined, they have to be measured a lot more,
which is one of the things these telescopes can do.

* Just look at the polls.  A solid majority of the public wants - and is
willing to vote for - this science, and is more likely to vote for members
of Congress who support this.  (This is an "application" only of use to the
government people who ultimately decide the fate of things here.  That is
sufficient in this case.)
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 08:56:25 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 04:56:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQgQ+1=FMaRD4Kg0n-x9VePdATmevg93VOrypKsq6PggQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> If we want to take the same applications approach to astronomy, the
> currently most touted applications are:* Asteroid defense [...] asteroid
> defense*


If I was being honest I'd have the say the thirty meter telescope, although
excellent for work in cosmology,  would not be a good instrument for
asteroid research, its field of view is enormously deep but very narrow.
For asteroid work you'd want lots of much smaller cheaper telescopes with a
wider field of view.

John K Clark
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From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 16:12:28 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:12:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2W7z-vDTCX3STOE+5S3JC7Ty56TK7a6qLUigG346ZQYA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:59 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 4:30 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> *> If we want to take the same applications approach to astronomy, the
>> currently most touted applications are:* Asteroid defense [...] asteroid
>> defense*
>
>
> If I was being honest I'd have the say the thirty meter telescope,
> although excellent for work in cosmology,  would not be a good instrument
> for asteroid research, its field of view is enormously deep but very
> narrow. For asteroid work you'd want lots of much smaller cheaper
> telescopes with a wider field of view.
>

Perhaps it would not be the best instrument for that job - but could it
assist with that job at all?  That is sometimes all that those who ask that
sort of question care.
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 16:23:55 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 12:23:55 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS5KKxixSqsc5u9V-PeN3S0AWgY4naKUibNMuvdiqHcYA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAM5aL2fcJDiUeZReCVzHo1rDhZdvm-JR13oFLGqGdsOtHLAaiQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worlds-largest-telescope-why-locations-mauna-kea-hawaii-la-palma-spain-might-not-matter/






*When starlight from billions of years ago zips across the universe and
finally comes into focus on Earth, astronomers want their telescopes to be
in the best locations possible to see what's out there. Despite years of
legal battles and months of protests by Native Hawaiian opponents, the
international coalition that wants to build the world's largest telescope
in Hawaii insists that the islands' highest peak ? Mauna Kea ? is the best
place for their $1.4 billion instrument.But just barely.Thirty Meter
Telescope officials acknowledge that their backup site atop a peak on the
Spanish Canary island of La Palma is a comparable observatory location, and
that it wouldn't cost more money or take extra time to build it there.*


*There's also no significant opposition to putting the telescope on La
Palma like there is in Hawaii, where some Native Hawaiians consider the
mountain sacred and have blocked trucks from hauling construction equipment
to Mauna Kea's summit for more than a month.*

*...*
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From john at ziaspace.com  Mon Aug 26 18:03:32 2019
From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 18:03:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ExI] META: Extropy mailing list updates
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1908231844140.28515@hlin.zia.io>

Hello, Extropians!

This is just a quick note to let everyone know that we've made some 
changes, some of which you may've already noticed. The "From:" address is 
now always rewritten to be a @lists.extropy.org address so we can now use 
DMARC and DKIM properly. Some of the servers to which we've been 
delivering had been marking list traffic as spam, but now that is fixed.

If anyone has any questions, or any trouble either sending email to or 
getting email from our mailing lists, feel free to email me directly 
and/or email extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org, and we'll look in to 
it.

I'm looking forward to the next decade and more of these lists :)

Thanks,
John Klos
-- 
I don't know which scares me more - that people adhere to the idea of an
omnipotent being powerful enough to create the universe, but whose
supposedly most cherished creation is a race modeled after himself which
can't stop hurting and killing each other, or the idea that those same
people cannot or will not consider the possibility that the universe is
random and unfeeling, and it's up to us to create order and beauty out of
chaos and entropy.


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 18:45:17 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:45:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAM5aL2fcJDiUeZReCVzHo1rDhZdvm-JR13oFLGqGdsOtHLAaiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:30 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worlds-largest-telescope-why-locations-mauna-kea-hawaii-la-palma-spain-might-not-matter/
>
>
>
> *When starlight from billions of years ago zips across the universe and
> finally comes into focus on Earth, astronomers want their telescopes to be
> in the best locations possible to see what's out there. Despite years of
> legal battles and months of protests by Native Hawaiian opponents, the
> international coalition that wants to build the world's largest telescope
> in Hawaii insists that the islands' highest peak ? Mauna Kea ? is the best
> place for their $1.4 billion instrument.But just barely.*
>

For some reason you didn't include this part:

*"**Mauna Kea stands nearly 14,000 feet (4,300 meters) above sea level,
more than twice as high as the Spanish site *[...]*  Depending on the kind
of science you want to do, it's going to be a 10% hit to a 50% hit in
speed, You are going to have to observe that much longer at La Palma to get
the same quality data.* [...] *Mauna Kea, since it is higher, would have a
thinner atmospheric layer and would observe more in certain infrared
ranges, The possibility of capturing the image is lower at la Palma."*

And when it comes to super weak infrared light every photon counts because
they come from the most distant objects in the universe and they tell us
the most about the shape and fate of the cosmos;  they are so distant that
even ultraviolet light will be redshifted into the infrared due to the
expansion of the universe.

If Mauna Kea was really "just barely" better than La Palma the astronomers
wouldn't have suffered fools and delayed the entire project for 4 years to
try to get the better site. The Atacama Desert would be just as good but
then there would be no large telescope in the northern hemisphere. The
second best in the north was La Palma, there were already telescopes there
so they knew Mauna Kea was not "just barely" better but significantly
better, so significantly that astronomers thought it was worth it to stop
the entire project for 4 years on the off chance they could still get the
superior place.  It worked but it didn't work, yes the law says the
astronomers won but the law will never be enforced. La Palma is better than
nothing I guess, but it's a poor second.

And now I have a question that I find completely bewildering. Can somebody
explain to me why nearly every member of this list feels they have a moral
duty to find excuses for these anti-scientific blockheads?

John K Clark
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From sparge at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 19:01:06 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 15:01:06 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1WvaMcxOcbKWFznOzdRT6q=XTCkHOv0R-kDQgvQRLsuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:49 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> For some reason you didn't include this part:
>

Copyright law.

-Dave
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 19:23:09 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 15:23:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1hjApaLgurCv-K=DVVFn7BW38tS0ieZGjFtO=mTj5yWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAKrqSyG4WcmHUfODMc-efu56QWxW=nuVYYOpY8wqo=H3_Yud1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 5:48 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  If anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that emotion,
> why did it evolve?
>

This is perhaps the WORST argument I've ever heard JKC make, and really
shows the grasping at straws.  Yes John, everything that ever evolved is
completely useful for all those who inherited it.  Now if you'll excuse me,
I have an appointment to get my appendix taken out.


On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 2:47 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> And now I have a question that I find completely bewildering. Can somebody
> explain to me why nearly every member of this list feels they have a moral
> duty to find excuses for these anti-scientific blockheads?
>

No; it's not like you would ever accept an explanation.  Since the rest of
the list thinks so, maybe we are right.  Deal with it ;P

I'd also like to see you disprove the Hawaiians' claims. ;)  And no,
Russell's Teapot is not a good argument, just to head you off on that one
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 20:14:16 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 13:14:16 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyG4WcmHUfODMc-efu56QWxW=nuVYYOpY8wqo=H3_Yud1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Aug 26, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 5:48 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>>  If anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that emotion, why did it evolve? 
> 
> This is perhaps the WORST argument I've ever heard JKC make, and really shows the grasping at straws.  Yes John, everything that ever evolved is completely useful for all those who inherited it.  Now if you'll excuse me, I have an appointment to get my appendix taken out.  

I was a actually going to point that out too, though I was going to use the example of religion and irrational behavior. In a sense, both evolved, so does that morally justify either at every turn? If so, it undermines his case here. 

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu  Mon Aug 26 20:26:52 2019
From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:26:52 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1WvaMcxOcbKWFznOzdRT6q=XTCkHOv0R-kDQgvQRLsuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <1D2510BE-DC50-4F68-881B-D71ACEA29FC9@alumni.virginia.edu>

I currently hold the opinion that the Hawaiian natives don?t have standing for claiming the mountain is theirs. Even if it?s a part of their mythology. I wouldn?t support claiming eminent domain in the name of science to take the land if one of them owned it, but it appears to me it wasn?t ?taken? from them in the name of science. It?s a National Park. National Parks are there to preserve and for the public?s interest. I see national and/or global scientific endeavors as consistent with that mission as long as the project is sensitive to the environmental impact and maintains the benefits bestowed by it being a National Park. I believe there is plenty of data collection and science at US National Parks that doesn?t disrupt the ecosystem or the value of those parks. So there is precedent for this type of usage. It?s not like the astronomers are planning to blow up or otherwise destroy or denigrate the mountain or turn it into another Disneyland  

> On Aug 26, 2019, at 2:45 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:30 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> https://www.cbsnews.com/news/worlds-largest-telescope-why-locations-mauna-kea-hawaii-la-palma-spain-might-not-matter/
>> 
>> When starlight from billions of years ago zips across the universe and finally comes into focus on Earth, astronomers want their telescopes to be in the best locations possible to see what's out there. Despite years of legal battles and months of protests by Native Hawaiian opponents, the international coalition that wants to build the world's largest telescope in Hawaii insists that the islands' highest peak ? Mauna Kea ? is the best place for their $1.4 billion instrument.
>> But just barely.
> 
> For some reason you didn't include this part:
> 
> "Mauna Kea stands nearly 14,000 feet (4,300 meters) above sea level, more than twice as high as the Spanish site [...]  Depending on the kind of science you want to do, it's going to be a 10% hit to a 50% hit in speed, You are going to have to observe that much longer at La Palma to get the same quality data. [...] Mauna Kea, since it is higher, would have a thinner atmospheric layer and would observe more in certain infrared ranges, The possibility of capturing the image is lower at la Palma."
> 
> And when it comes to super weak infrared light every photon counts because they come from the most distant objects in the universe and they tell us the most about the shape and fate of the cosmos;  they are so distant that even ultraviolet light will be redshifted into the infrared due to the expansion of the universe.
> 
> If Mauna Kea was really "just barely" better than La Palma the astronomers wouldn't have suffered fools and delayed the entire project for 4 years to try to get the better site. The Atacama Desert would be just as good but then there would be no large telescope in the northern hemisphere. The second best in the north was La Palma, there were already telescopes there so they knew Mauna Kea was not "just barely" better but significantly better, so significantly that astronomers thought it was worth it to stop the entire project for 4 years on the off chance they could still get the superior place.  It worked but it didn't work, yes the law says the astronomers won but the law will never be enforced. La Palma is better than nothing I guess, but it's a poor second.
> 
> And now I have a question that I find completely bewildering. Can somebody explain to me why nearly every member of this list feels they have a moral duty to find excuses for these anti-scientific blockheads?
> 
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Aug 26 20:40:59 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 13:40:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <1D2510BE-DC50-4F68-881B-D71ACEA29FC9@alumni.virginia.edu>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <011c01d55c4e$91890c20$b49b2460$@rainier66.com>

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown

 

>?I currently hold the opinion that the Hawaiian natives don?t have standing for claiming the mountain is theirs. Even if it?s a part of their mythology. I wouldn?t support claiming eminent domain in the name of science to take the land if one of them owned it, but it appears to me it wasn?t ?taken? from them in the name of science. It?s a National Park. National Parks are there to preserve and for the public?s interest. I see national and/or global scientific endeavors as consistent with that mission as long as the project is sensitive to the environmental impact and maintains the benefits bestowed by it being a National Park. I believe there is plenty of data collection and science at US National Parks that doesn?t disrupt the ecosystem or the value of those parks. So there is precedent for this type of usage. It?s not like the astronomers are planning to blow up or otherwise destroy or denigrate the mountain or turn it into another Disneyland  

 

 

 

 

I hadn?t realized before that it was a national park.  If natives can seize one national park, they can seize all of them.  Are we going to allow that?

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 20:56:23 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:56:23 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyG4WcmHUfODMc-efu56QWxW=nuVYYOpY8wqo=H3_Yud1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

 >> If anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that
>> emotion, why did it evolve?
>>
>
> *> This is perhaps the WORST argument I've ever heard JKC make, and really
> shows the grasping at straws.  Yes John, everything that ever evolved is
> completely useful for all those who inherited it.  Now if you'll excuse me,
> I have an appointment to get my appendix taken out.  No; it's not like you
> would ever accept an explanation.  Since the rest of the list thinks so,
> maybe we are right.  Deal with it  *
>

Hmm... if I didn't know better I'd say that almost sounds as if you're
*ANGRY*.

*> I'd also like to see you disprove the Hawaiians' claims. ;)  And no,
> Russell's Teapot is not a good argument,*


Why not? It seems like a pretty damn good argument to me. And I still
haven't received a word of explanation why any scientifically minded person
should have the slightest respect or sympathy for ignorant barbarians who
are committing blatantly illegal acts.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:15:09 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:15:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv23PJvUwHf-AN+AnotWOhJpM+w23UOeDCD0MFkQOW73jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZrLsLGmxH1W44_9v-1MJSvoVpRx4VdV1ako3LuCGAALQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have to wonder why some judge doesn't force the law officials to obey the
law and arrest the protestors.  Of course for the cops this is a nightmare
of public relations.

bill w

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:59 PM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>  >> If anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that
>>> emotion, why did it evolve?
>>>
>>
>> *> This is perhaps the WORST argument I've ever heard JKC make, and
>> really shows the grasping at straws.  Yes John, everything that ever
>> evolved is completely useful for all those who inherited it.  Now if you'll
>> excuse me, I have an appointment to get my appendix taken out.  No; it's
>> not like you would ever accept an explanation.  Since the rest of the list
>> thinks so, maybe we are right.  Deal with it  *
>>
>
> Hmm... if I didn't know better I'd say that almost sounds as if you're
> *ANGRY*.
>
> *> I'd also like to see you disprove the Hawaiians' claims. ;)  And no,
>> Russell's Teapot is not a good argument,*
>
>
> Why not? It seems like a pretty damn good argument to me. And I still
> haven't received a word of explanation why any scientifically minded person
> should have the slightest respect or sympathy for ignorant barbarians who
> are committing blatantly illegal acts.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:19:21 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:19:21 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv23PJvUwHf-AN+AnotWOhJpM+w23UOeDCD0MFkQOW73jg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 16:58 John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 3:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>  >> If anger never has a useful purpose why do all animals have that
>>> emotion, why did it evolve?
>>>
>>
>> *> This is perhaps the WORST argument I've ever heard JKC make, and
>> really shows the grasping at straws.  Yes John, everything that ever
>> evolved is completely useful for all those who inherited it.  Now if you'll
>> excuse me, I have an appointment to get my appendix taken out.  No; it's
>> not like you would ever accept an explanation.  Since the rest of the list
>> thinks so, maybe we are right.  Deal with it  *
>>
>
> Hmm... if I didn't know better I'd say that almost sounds as if you're
> *ANGRY*.
>

1) No, just incredulous

2) Even if I was, so what?  I'm not trying to back up the same insane
argument that you are.  I'm not claiming that evolution is some magic thing
that ensures the absolute usefulness and utter posterity of everything it
ever creates.  No evolutionary scientist would ever say that was true.
Having evolved does not mean useful forever and if you actually believe
that then you shouldn't claim to be defending science.

>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:26:40 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:26:40 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv23PJvUwHf-AN+AnotWOhJpM+w23UOeDCD0MFkQOW73jg@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019, 16:58 John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And I still haven't received a word of explanation why any scientifically
> minded person should have the slightest respect or sympathy for ignorant
> barbarians who are committing blatantly illegal acts.
>

1) Not owed an explanation.  But there is something romantic about it.  The
observatory is replaceable, in the end.  The history of the space otherwise
is not.

Would you build over ancient ruins of, say, the birthplace of chemistry, or
some once glorious city, to build a hydrological research station?  What
about razing Isaac Newton's birthplace to build an art museum?

Not saying necessarily that either of those or wrong, just trying to give
you a sense of why history and sentiment matter.  Do you have any items
you've owned for a long time that you cherish?  Perhaps one that belonged
to a deceased relative.

Well, go throw all that shit away.  It's not *magic*.

>
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:27:39 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:27:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyErPe9AzWQVnd8s_DnbOw6s7HUaJmBDDV+=+qxx4Tko1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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2) I forgot the 2, my apologies.  Affix it to the beginning of one of the
lines in the last email, take your pick
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:41:26 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:41:26 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNS5KKxixSqsc5u9V-PeN3S0AWgY4naKUibNMuvdiqHcYA@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 12:16 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>> If I was being honest I'd have the say the thirty meter telescope,
>> although excellent for work in cosmology,  would not be a good instrument
>> for asteroid research, its field of view is enormously deep but very
>> narrow. For asteroid work you'd want lots of much smaller cheaper
>> telescopes with a wider field of view.
>>
>
> *> Perhaps it would not be the best instrument for that job - but could it
> assist with that job at all?  That is sometimes all that those who ask that
> sort of question care. *
>

The best instrument for finding asteroids and comets would be the Large
Synoptic Survey Telescope that is being constructed in the Atacama Desert
and should be finished sometime next year. It has a 8.4 meter mirror of a
unusual short focal length design that gives it a extremely wide field of
view, so wide will photograph the entire southern sky ever 3 days. It would
be really nice if there was a similar instrument at a equally good
observing site in the northern hemisphere but that is impossible because
the invisible Hawaiian man wouldn't like it.

Speaking of asteroid collisions, as you know the entire observatory was
shut down for about a month due to the stupidity epidemic, on the very
first day it reopened it made a discovery that relieved a lot of people.
But if things had turned out a little differently and there had been a
month long delay in sounding the alarm those protesters who illegally
blocked the road would forever live in infamy. Even some members of this
list other than me *might* say some bad things about them. Maybe. From:

Telescopes in Hawaii reopen after deal with protesters
<https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/08/telescopes-hawaii-reopen-after-deal-protesters>

*"The Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope (CFHT) reported that on its first
night back in operation, it located an asteroid called 2006 QV89 that was
potentially on a collision course with Earth. Discovered 13 years ago, the
asteroid drifted out of observing range before astronomers could get a fix
on its orbit. The CFHT was perfectly positioned last month to pin down its
trajectory when observations were halted. After a nail-biting month, CFHT
astronomers picked up the asteroid?s trail straight away on the night of 10
August. Within an hour of publishing their results on 11 August,
researchers at NASA?s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California,
confirmed there was no risk of a collision at any time in the next
century?including nine close encounters in the next decade."*

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 21:49:00 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 17:49:00 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyGOBrT5rSxJmN05uUCBs4pvoQgzJkmuSripJJPe+2=aig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 5:26 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

 >*I'm not trying to back up the same insane argument that you are. *


Hmm... if I didn't know better I'd say that almost sounds as if you're
*ANGRY*.

*> I'm not claiming that evolution is some magic thing that ensures the
> absolute usefulness and utter posterity of everything it ever creates. *


Well I'm very pleased you don't have that warped idea of how Evolution
works. Perhaps there is hope for you after all.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Aug 26 22:42:09 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 18:42:09 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyErPe9AzWQVnd8s_DnbOw6s7HUaJmBDDV+=+qxx4Tko1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 5:34 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> What about razing Isaac Newton's birthplace to build an art museum?*


A world class art museum can be built anywhere, a world class observatory
can not be. If Newton's house was on land that had the best observing
conditions on the planet I'd gladly drive the bulldozer myself that knocks
his house down.

John K Clark
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From stathisp at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 01:44:31 2019
From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 11:44:31 +1000
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armhegNp4g_UDcdbjzbBsWkQay=PH61krzLCq6P-vmjB+Mw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 at 04:19, BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 at 16:59, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> >
> > But this is a contradiction.  If the end justifies the means, then the
> means are not morally dubious.  Logical error here.
> > (no, I am not a consequentialist)
> >
> > bill w
> >
>
> That's the point. Consequentialists can choose what seems to them to
> be an extremely "good" objective and that gives them licence to do
> anything that helps to achieve that objective. No matter how "evil"
> their actions might be. Though of course they should limit themselves
> to causing less damage than the "good" that they are aiming for.
>

It is possible to be a consequentialist and maintain, for example, that
torture is never justified because it is so terrible that the harm from it
outweighs any possible benefit.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 04:49:34 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 00:49:34 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZguKBVVCQ4CPzABwOuCyB3YtCmOSkrri3CGH3d=YPkWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armiJvaejsret9Z9tDKLuNrxLj4=Ve8L3-hatyrFW_CcoeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:58 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> But this is a contradiction.  If the end justifies the means, then the
> means are not morally dubious.
>  Logical error here.


Yes, it depends on the ends and depends on the means , the entire "does the
end justify the means?" thing is the second silliest question in all of
philosophy;
beater only by "does man have free will?".

John K Clark
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From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 17:46:00 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 10:46:00 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Interesting US farming history
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5pOgBhrWXLftEQDRRq2KjpmAeaVg0hSrB0DtAPJWr5kg@mail.gmail.com>

===Antebellum stunting===

Food production grew through the period before the Civil war.
However, the population grew faster and income was diverted from food
to shelter.  The effect of lower food per capita was to permanently
stunt the growth of non-elite children of that era.  That the US had
suffered a food shortage during the industrial buildup was in conflict
with the prevailing view.  It took a third of a century between the
first publication about declining heights during the antebellum period
for the food restriction explanation to be accepted.
[[https://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/12758/1/Komlos-A_Three-Decade_Kuhnian_History_of_the_Antebellum_Puzzle.pdf]]

Keith

From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 18:21:05 2019
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 12:21:05 -0600
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
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We were at the Louvre in Paris, last week.
I got this picture of my favorite Descartes.


On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:18 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Will,
>
>
>
> I believe in market failures too.  Market failures are what causes market
> successes.  The beauty of Capitalism is that it presents consumers with
> both the winners and the losers.  We get to choose which is which.
>
>
>
> In communism, the unelected government dictates who are the winners and
> the losers.
>
>
>
> This is why capitalism produces corvettes and Cadillacs, while communism
> produced Trabis and? well, a bunch more Trabis.
>
>
>
> Fun aside for car guys: most of the Soviet-era cars were actually German
> designs.  They didn?t change much over the years, and why should they?  The
> factory sold all they could produce, so why improve the design?  Besides,
> they already had the machines to make this design.  They seized them from
> the Nazis in 1945.
>
>
>
> Another fun aside for car guys: there is a Russian car club which holds
> occasional rallies.  If you want a lesson in the magic tricks perpetrated
> by the Invisible Hand of Capitalism, go to that rally, look at those
> commie-build cars, oh dear evolution, what (if anything) were these guys
> thinking?  When the Japanese started importing cars the US in the early 60s
> they had a reputation for being cheapy junk.  Do let me assure you, the
> Russians defined the term and taught the Japanese.  You have never seen
> cheapy junk until you have seen a Russian built car from the 80s, oh mercy.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *Will Steinberg
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:21 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] philosophy poll
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:33 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> William James
>
>
>
> Quite a pragmatic post ;)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:04 <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the
> 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776
> book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to
> infect the planet.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> I'm not sure where to start with this one, but maybe first off I would say
> that Karl Marx did read WoN, and other Smith, as if it wasn't painfully
> obvious.
>
>
>
> Capital is part of the lineage of WoN, cf. labor theory of value.  Also.
> Smith was pretty much pre-capitalist and probably would have chosen his
> words more carefully if he could have seen the influence that WoN would
> have.
>
>
>
> I like to say that Capital is the book that Adam Smith would have written
> if he had the luxury of being able to read Wealth of Nations like Marx was
> able to.
>
>
>
> Have you read both?  Or just hate them damn pinkos, Sen. McCarthy?
>
>
>
> NB: A lot of modern day economists might take umbrage at the idea that
> Smith "had economics figured out", especially because he was not able to
> see modern capitalism at its finest.
>
>
>
> BTW, I am not a communist, I just believe in market failures.  As does any
> economist worth their salt.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 20:15:55 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:15:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>

Market failures are what causes market successes. spike

OK you knew when you wrote that that I was going to ask about it.  I
thought market failures, like 2008, were caused by nearly worthless
instruments bundled with totally worthless ones and sold to dupes.  I can
see where, having made such a big boner of an error, that they won't do
that again (?), but is that the cause you refer to?  bill w

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 2:15 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> We were at the Louvre in Paris, last week.
> I got this picture of my favorite Descartes.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:18 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Will,
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe in market failures too.  Market failures are what causes market
>> successes.  The beauty of Capitalism is that it presents consumers with
>> both the winners and the losers.  We get to choose which is which.
>>
>>
>>
>> In communism, the unelected government dictates who are the winners and
>> the losers.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is why capitalism produces corvettes and Cadillacs, while communism
>> produced Trabis and? well, a bunch more Trabis.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fun aside for car guys: most of the Soviet-era cars were actually German
>> designs.  They didn?t change much over the years, and why should they?  The
>> factory sold all they could produce, so why improve the design?  Besides,
>> they already had the machines to make this design.  They seized them from
>> the Nazis in 1945.
>>
>>
>>
>> Another fun aside for car guys: there is a Russian car club which holds
>> occasional rallies.  If you want a lesson in the magic tricks perpetrated
>> by the Invisible Hand of Capitalism, go to that rally, look at those
>> commie-build cars, oh dear evolution, what (if anything) were these guys
>> thinking?  When the Japanese started importing cars the US in the early 60s
>> they had a reputation for being cheapy junk.  Do let me assure you, the
>> Russians defined the term and taught the Japanese.  You have never seen
>> cheapy junk until you have seen a Russian built car from the 80s, oh mercy.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Will Steinberg
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:21 AM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] philosophy poll
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:33 AM Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> William James
>>
>>
>>
>> Quite a pragmatic post ;)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 10:04 <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Excellent choice.  Adam Smith had economics figured out way back in the
>> 1770s.  Had Karl Marx been a reader of English and had Adam Smith?s 1776
>> book Wealth of Nations, the horror of communism would never had needed to
>> infect the planet.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure where to start with this one, but maybe first off I would
>> say that Karl Marx did read WoN, and other Smith, as if it wasn't painfully
>> obvious.
>>
>>
>>
>> Capital is part of the lineage of WoN, cf. labor theory of value.  Also.
>> Smith was pretty much pre-capitalist and probably would have chosen his
>> words more carefully if he could have seen the influence that WoN would
>> have.
>>
>>
>>
>> I like to say that Capital is the book that Adam Smith would have written
>> if he had the luxury of being able to read Wealth of Nations like Marx was
>> able to.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you read both?  Or just hate them damn pinkos, Sen. McCarthy?
>>
>>
>>
>> NB: A lot of modern day economists might take umbrage at the idea that
>> Smith "had economics figured out", especially because he was not able to
>> see modern capitalism at its finest.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, I am not a communist, I just believe in market failures.  As does
>> any economist worth their salt.
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 27 20:46:28 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 13:46:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001601d55d18$80f6bdb0$82e43910$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On 
Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

>>?Market failures are what causes market successes. spike

 

>?OK you knew when you wrote that that I was going to ask about it.  I thought market failures, like 2008, were caused by nearly worthless instruments bundled with totally worthless ones and sold to dupes.  I can see where, having made such a big boner of an error, that they won't do that again (?), but is that the cause you refer to?  bill w

 

 

 

No, I meant companies compete with each other, they make stuff,  some of their products succeed, others fail.  

 

Ford built a car called the Edsel for instance, with lots of safety features such as seatbelts and such.  Meanwhile GM built faster cheaper cars, and ate Ford?s lunch.  The Edsel was a market failure, the Impala is much loved to this day.  Ford took the Edsel seatbelts and built a new, better car around them (the Mustang.)  The companies competed, the consumers won.

 

Communism suppresses market competition. Their manufactured stuff doesn?t evolve.  Our does.

 

Regarding stock market failures in 2008, that was success: without outside assistance, the invisible hand of capitalism found the real value of the investments being sold.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

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From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 20:59:05 2019
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 13:59:05 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <001601d55d18$80f6bdb0$82e43910$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d55d18$80f6bdb0$82e43910$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpEr+yr5p3jEagR+Frj_9EegP27RZ4u9y2ao3wocSXUZLg@mail.gmail.com>

Manly Hall

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 1:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On *
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] philosophy poll
>
>
>
> >>?Market failures are what causes market successes. spike
>
>
>
> >?OK you knew when you wrote that that I was going to ask about it.  I
> thought market failures, like 2008, were caused by nearly worthless
> instruments bundled with totally worthless ones and sold to dupes.  I can
> see where, having made such a big boner of an error, that they won't do
> that again (?), but is that the cause you refer to?  bill w
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No, I meant companies compete with each other, they make stuff,  some of
> their products succeed, others fail.
>
>
>
> Ford built a car called the Edsel for instance, with lots of safety
> features such as seatbelts and such.  Meanwhile GM built faster cheaper
> cars, and ate Ford?s lunch.  The Edsel was a market failure, the Impala is
> much loved to this day.  Ford took the Edsel seatbelts and built a new,
> better car around them (the Mustang.)  The companies competed, the
> consumers won.
>
>
>
> Communism suppresses market competition. Their manufactured stuff doesn?t
> evolve.  Our does.
>
>
>
> Regarding stock market failures in 2008, that was success: without outside
> assistance, the invisible hand of capitalism found the real value of the
> investments being sold.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 21:58:31 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 16:58:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAN3PQpEr+yr5p3jEagR+Frj_9EegP27RZ4u9y2ao3wocSXUZLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d55d18$80f6bdb0$82e43910$@rainier66.com>
 <CAN3PQpEr+yr5p3jEagR+Frj_9EegP27RZ4u9y2ao3wocSXUZLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbRqOPYWAC2=q_xnjY+bifq24k64FPpp9ZRyd9vUjJQ-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Regarding stock market failures in 2008, that was success: without outside
assistance, the invisible hand of capitalism found the real value of the
investments being sold.



spike


It was very good that they found out for themselves what they did wrong,
but too late to avoid trillions (?) of dollars lost by people's retirement
funds et alia.  I certainly would have bitten that hand.  I did not follow
that story, (no dog in the fight) but surely government did some regulatory
something to halt this sort of thing before it got out of hand.  Huge
corporations going out of business.  Hard for me to call that success
unless you regard the company as having been a tumor in the marketplace to
start with.  Propping up GM with our money.  Success?  I would have let
them die.

bill w

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 4:02 PM ilsa via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Manly Hall
>
> On Tue, Aug 27, 2019, 1:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On *
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] philosophy poll
>>
>>
>>
>> >>?Market failures are what causes market successes. spike
>>
>>
>>
>> >?OK you knew when you wrote that that I was going to ask about it.  I
>> thought market failures, like 2008, were caused by nearly worthless
>> instruments bundled with totally worthless ones and sold to dupes.  I can
>> see where, having made such a big boner of an error, that they won't do
>> that again (?), but is that the cause you refer to?  bill w
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No, I meant companies compete with each other, they make stuff,  some of
>> their products succeed, others fail.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ford built a car called the Edsel for instance, with lots of safety
>> features such as seatbelts and such.  Meanwhile GM built faster cheaper
>> cars, and ate Ford?s lunch.  The Edsel was a market failure, the Impala is
>> much loved to this day.  Ford took the Edsel seatbelts and built a new,
>> better car around them (the Mustang.)  The companies competed, the
>> consumers won.
>>
>>
>>
>> Communism suppresses market competition. Their manufactured stuff doesn?t
>> evolve.  Our does.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding stock market failures in 2008, that was success: without
>> outside assistance, the invisible hand of capitalism found the real value
>> of the investments being sold.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Aug 27 21:25:02 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 14:25:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
Message-ID: <20190827142502.Horde.5DTuNJON3ltStCD7i80ank1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Quoting BillK:

> John has raised the question -
> "how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the magnificence
> of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?"

I don't sympathize with the native Hawaiians, but I can empathize with  
them. Without a lengthy explanation, there is a subtle difference  
between the two, and to me sympathy is a passive, undisciplined, form  
of empathy. While empathy is something like the Lorentz transformation  
of moral relativism, a skill someone can develop to get into another's  
head.

>
> Apart from requiring attendance at Aunt Agatha's School of Charm and  
> Etiquette,
> this is a direct statement of consequentialism.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism>
> Quote:
> Consequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding
> that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any
> judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from
> a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from
> acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.
> ---------

Good for whom? What is good for the fox is seldom good for the hare.  
Both employ the same means by running as fast as they can. But when a  
fox chases a hare, the outcome cannot be good for both. There is no  
objective good or evil. There is only conflicts of interest, winners,  
and losers. And since the winners write the history books, history is  
necessarily consequentialist.

>
> The obvious problem with this is that it is saying that the end
> justifies the means.
> And this can be used to justify any morally dubious conduct.

I can think of no conduct so morally dubious as to not have been  
normative in some culture somewhere at some point in time. Thus does  
the pious Muslim beat his under-aged wives to ensure Allah's favor,  
and the virtuous Christian knight baptize Muslim babies with holy  
water before crushing their skulls.

>
> Definition of "the end justifies the means" -
> ?used to say that a desired result is so good or important that any
> method, even a morally bad one, may be used to achieve it.
> "They believe that the end justifies the means and will do anything to get
> their candidate elected".

The problem with the "the end justifying the means" is that nothing  
ever really ends because the consequences just keep coming. And most  
of those consequences are unintended.

> Therefore this requires that they must define what they mean by "good"
> consequences and how this "good" offsets the bad consequences of all the
> "justified" evil or illegal actions.

Good and evil are far too subjective to be useful in judging  
consequences. Instead ask: whom and how many does the action benefit  
and whom and how many does it harm?

> As with all philosophy people usually compromise. Absolute rules need
> exceptions to deal with the rough and tumble of human existence.

Only absolutists need compromise anything. Moral relativists simply  
need to choose a side and play to win.

Stuart LaForge




From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Aug 27 22:29:10 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 17:29:10 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Consequentialism
In-Reply-To: <20190827142502.Horde.5DTuNJON3ltStCD7i80ank1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190827142502.Horde.5DTuNJON3ltStCD7i80ank1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaWEZ7DYDPb5je8OnKWLmZ4fouexQ3ZEPFTLH-Oqwo0=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I don't sympathize with the native Hawaiians, but I can empathize with
them. Without a lengthy explanation, there is a subtle difference
between the two, and to me sympathy is a passive, undisciplined, form
of empathy. While empathy is something like the Lorentz transformation
of moral relativism, a skill someone can develop to get into another's
head. stuart

I am not arguing with your definitions-  they are yours and you can use
them as you want.  I do, however, respectfully suggest the following:  to
keep in tune (pun intended) with the traditional meaning of sympathy,
I recall one of the forbearers of the modern cello, which was built with
extra strings
which vibrated in sympathy when certain other notes were bowed or plucked.
  They were not themselves bowed or plucked.  Hence I think that sympathy
is
when we literally feel the same thing as another person, a gross example of
which is seeing
someone vomit, get nauseous ourselves, and spew forth.  Crying from
sadness.  Exulting with victory of
your team as they act victorious.

Then empathy is understanding what someone else is feeling but not feeling
that ourselves.  Pity may be
when the sadness of someone else is viewed as unjust.

The modern literature in psych tends to have these backwards, as I have
explained to numerous
psychologists I have written.
bill w

On Tue, Aug 27, 2019 at 5:14 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Quoting BillK:
>
> > John has raised the question -
> > "how can anyone who can see the beauty in science and the magnificence
> > of the universe have the slightest sympathy for these sphincters?"
>
> I don't sympathize with the native Hawaiians, but I can empathize with
> them. Without a lengthy explanation, there is a subtle difference
> between the two, and to me sympathy is a passive, undisciplined, form
> of empathy. While empathy is something like the Lorentz transformation
> of moral relativism, a skill someone can develop to get into another's
> head.
>
> >
> > Apart from requiring attendance at Aunt Agatha's School of Charm and
> > Etiquette,
> > this is a direct statement of consequentialism.
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism>
> > Quote:
> > Consequentialism is the class of normative ethical theories holding
> > that the consequences of one's conduct are the ultimate basis for any
> > judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from
> > a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from
> > acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.
> > ---------
>
> Good for whom? What is good for the fox is seldom good for the hare.
> Both employ the same means by running as fast as they can. But when a
> fox chases a hare, the outcome cannot be good for both. There is no
> objective good or evil. There is only conflicts of interest, winners,
> and losers. And since the winners write the history books, history is
> necessarily consequentialist.
>
> >
> > The obvious problem with this is that it is saying that the end
> > justifies the means.
> > And this can be used to justify any morally dubious conduct.
>
> I can think of no conduct so morally dubious as to not have been
> normative in some culture somewhere at some point in time. Thus does
> the pious Muslim beat his under-aged wives to ensure Allah's favor,
> and the virtuous Christian knight baptize Muslim babies with holy
> water before crushing their skulls.
>
> >
> > Definition of "the end justifies the means" -
> > ?used to say that a desired result is so good or important that any
> > method, even a morally bad one, may be used to achieve it.
> > "They believe that the end justifies the means and will do anything to
> get
> > their candidate elected".
>
> The problem with the "the end justifying the means" is that nothing
> ever really ends because the consequences just keep coming. And most
> of those consequences are unintended.
>
> > Therefore this requires that they must define what they mean by "good"
> > consequences and how this "good" offsets the bad consequences of all the
> > "justified" evil or illegal actions.
>
> Good and evil are far too subjective to be useful in judging
> consequences. Instead ask: whom and how many does the action benefit
> and whom and how many does it harm?
>
> > As with all philosophy people usually compromise. Absolute rules need
> > exceptions to deal with the rough and tumble of human existence.
>
> Only absolutists need compromise anything. Moral relativists simply
> need to choose a side and play to win.
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Aug 27 22:30:17 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 15:30:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] philosophy poll
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbRqOPYWAC2=q_xnjY+bifq24k64FPpp9ZRyd9vUjJQ-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEa7oH_gNXrfit0EBX7xzj9z-DDkiV6yhcns6+yPxZF7Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0B785E0D-A6DE-4CD4-AE6E-83D87BBA9BCE@gmail.com>
 <CAKrqSyEPAGy3yN+ASKzt57mGRsPoq-3kTp6fyh-SMAnESO2WfA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEboNLgu-XLNs+kay2=gLzF-oD6QJBYLu1_q4PbO6dORHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <021f01d558f2$347c50f0$9d74f2d0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAKrqSyHbwc+z=QW2krKsJryD1RYOJ4bw6g6vP0=Ed5G3PX6z6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <005001d558fc$896f6700$9c4e3500$@rainier66.com>
 <CAK7-onuYFjYdW2S2ArU9JsMT2Vu0g+Oc-fZxcK8d-Yq1vKUkgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEay6JEO9YOkeO5iXMcSPw6+B3WFxVg+eW=BKxNh5UBk-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <001601d55d18$80f6bdb0$82e43910$@rainier66.com>
 <CAN3PQpEr+yr5p3jEagR+Frj_9EegP27RZ4u9y2ao3wocSXUZLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbRqOPYWAC2=q_xnjY+bifq24k64FPpp9ZRyd9vUjJQ-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007801d55d27$00f4d250$02de76f0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2019 2:59 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] philosophy poll

 

Regarding stock market failures in 2008, that was success: without outside assistance, the invisible hand of capitalism found the real value of the investments being sold.

 

spike

 

>?It was very good that they found out for themselves what they did wrong, but too late to avoid trillions (?) of dollars lost by people's retirement funds et alia?.  Propping up GM with our money.  Success?  I would have let them die.

bill w

Ja, huge companies going out of business is a market success.  If that company bets it all on ventures too risky, than that company will fail.  Propping up GM with our money should have been illegal, and it certainly was wrong.

Regarding trillions lost in 1987, sure that is bad.  Evolution has a lot of pain in it.  Investors must realize that the growth that comes from investing in business has risk to it.  A lesson to be learned within the next couple of decades is that governments can fail too.  Their currency, even if long regarded as stable, cannot survive forever if they borrow money just to meet normal expenses.

There is no too big to fail.  For example, keep watching Elon Musk?s empire.

spike

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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 28 16:22:33 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:22:33 -0500
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbjx5QP+7R+WoyzJRaxCBNUBSWm_E4W8cN03XU=JuNctw@mail.gmail.com>

This says something about the human race, and perhaps women, but as a
psychologist with a high opinion of himself, I  just cannot say what:

The Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet, wore a symbolic representation of a
cow's uterus as a headdress.

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 28 16:51:11 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:51:11 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEbjx5QP+7R+WoyzJRaxCBNUBSWm_E4W8cN03XU=JuNctw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEbjx5QP+7R+WoyzJRaxCBNUBSWm_E4W8cN03XU=JuNctw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40FFF3C7-398F-48AA-824C-7CD07F1362FF@gmail.com>

On Aug 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> This says something about the human race, and perhaps women, but as a psychologist with a high opinion of himself, I  just cannot say what:
> 
> The Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet, wore a symbolic representation of a cow's uterus as a headdress.

What makes this even more interesting is another Egyptian goddess also depicted with a cow uterus: Meskhenet. I imagine part of this is due to the fact that the cow played an important role in Egyptian life and myth.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 28 17:25:19 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:25:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] book
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbJee2t2FQbYf+qWxTq7C4-to1nLu-Ftez24VTWejzu_g@mail.gmail.com>

She Has Her MOther's Laugh - author Zimmer

Highly recommended.  Plenty on CRISPR, mosquitos, etc.

robert Sapolsky  "I loved this book"

bill w
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From hibbard at wisc.edu  Wed Aug 28 18:20:11 2019
From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:20:11 +0000
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>

My guess is that the Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet,
just got hammered and put a cow's uterus on her head.

On Aug 28, 2019, at 9:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> This says something about the human race, and perhaps women, but as a psychologist with a high opinion of himself, I  just cannot say what:
>
> The Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet, wore a symbolic representation of a cow's uterus as a headdress.


From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Aug 28 18:26:15 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:26:15 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <ACCC513A-4D85-4438-89E6-5955B4F2191B@gmail.com>

On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> My guess is that the Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet,
> just got hammered and put a cow's uterus on her head.

On a date? ;)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 10:38:20 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 06:38:20 -0400
Subject: [ExI] LIGO detections that happened yesterday
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2NWtYUTYaXf5qjqfsbtmDOOYxVqwMeeh2d8Lhhw5ic0A@mail.gmail.com>

Yesterday on August 28 2019 LIGO detected 2 Gravitational wave events just
21 minutes apart, the first at 6:34:05 UTC and the second at 6:55:09 UTC,
the events were at the same distance, 6.4 billion light years, and they
were in the same general part of the sky. The events were seen in all 3
detectors in Louisiana, Washington State and Italy. LIGO now releases the
raw data of what they've found almost instantly so optical astronomers can
look for something, so no detailed computer analysis has been done yet, but
the early speculation is this is the first gravitationally lensed
gravitational wave detection.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 21:51:17 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:51:17 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Spurious Correlations
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3NrojLUW25WMrnbU9=JEDRMCUs=w_cvtn1+ZcacjoXuQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'll bet you didn't know that the number letters in the winning word in the
national spelling bee tightly correlates with the number of people killed
by venomous spiders, or that the age of Miss America tightly correlates
with the number of murders by steam, hot vapors and hot objects, or that
Nicolas Cage movies tightly correlates with the number of people who died
by falling into a swimming pool.

Lots of other fun correlations at:

Spurious Correlations <https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations>

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 22:41:56 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:41:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] bias
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZyBwsq55S2-O7LU+PfySnRZfebTT939rFNDcWUuq62eg@mail.gmail.com>

Continuing a conversation with Spike:

What if we just dropped the category of race on anything to do with
government?  And in many cases, though of course not ones having to do with
childbirth, get rid of identifying a person by gender.

Spike wrote of Indians, from India (seems silly to add that) identifying
themselves as black for reasons I forgot, but it was to their advantage or
their school's or something.

To quote someone:  the way to quit discriminating by race is to quit
discriminating by race  (Justice Roberts maybe?).  One way to do that is to
prevent anyone from identifying a person by his race.

We should help the poor, the people out of work and so on.  What does race
have to do with those?  Nothing.

bill w
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 29 22:57:58 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 15:57:58 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
In-Reply-To: <ACCC513A-4D85-4438-89E6-5955B4F2191B@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <ACCC513A-4D85-4438-89E6-5955B4F2191B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D2981119-1662-49F1-BEA0-DC15B8E9CB11@gmail.com>

Damn autocorrect! That should?ve been:

On a dare?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> My guess is that the Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet,
>> just got hammered and put a cow's uterus on her head.
> 
> On a date? ;)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
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From atymes at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 00:01:35 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:01:35 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
In-Reply-To: <D2981119-1662-49F1-BEA0-DC15B8E9CB11@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <ACCC513A-4D85-4438-89E6-5955B4F2191B@gmail.com>
 <D2981119-1662-49F1-BEA0-DC15B8E9CB11@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTHnRv4W=ifXu6u_-6JkwCTNZEX-CHR=MC-Ft6kqKvsvA@mail.gmail.com>

And here I thought you meant as in the crazy things one does for love.

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:01 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Damn autocorrect! That should?ve been:
>
> On a dare?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> My guess is that the Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet,
>
> just got hammered and put a cow's uterus on her head.
>
>
> On a date? ;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 00:11:42 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 17:11:42 -0700
Subject: [ExI] trivia time
In-Reply-To: <D2981119-1662-49F1-BEA0-DC15B8E9CB11@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1908281317560.8848@sarah.ssec.wisc.edu>
 <ACCC513A-4D85-4438-89E6-5955B4F2191B@gmail.com>
 <D2981119-1662-49F1-BEA0-DC15B8E9CB11@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005401d55ec7$80e8c920$82ba5b60$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] trivia time

 

Damn autocorrect! That should?ve been:

 

On a dare?

Regards,





Dan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Eh, the autocorrect version really had some interesting visual imagery going.

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   Sample my Kindle books at:

http://author.to/DanUst


On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:26 AM, Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com <mailto:danust2012 at gmail.com> > wrote:

On Aug 28, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:



 

My guess is that the Egyptian goddess of Beer, Tjenenet,

just got hammered and put a cow's uterus on her head.


On a date? ;)

Regards,

Dan

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From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Aug 30 05:07:02 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 22:07:02 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Warning: contains American politics; do not read!
Message-ID: <20190829220702.Horde.LiuvPqA6yHY4pODg2W88cU1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Nothing to see here, citizen, move along.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/tulsi-gabbard-returns-to-campaign-trail-after-national-guard-deployment/

Stuart LaForge




From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 10:46:41 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 11:46:41 +0100
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Alexa_will_be_your_best_friend_when_you=E2=80=99?=
 =?utf-8?q?re_older?=
Message-ID: <CAL_armjtY9OZ2-6R6T-6AE7aHx2Nx6m6c71y=-Z7kepjyNAuLA@mail.gmail.com>

<https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614044/alexa-will-be-your-best-friend-when-youre-older/>
by Tanya Basu  Aug 30, 2019

Quote:
After two weeks, the results were clear: the older people loved it.
The Dutch pension system changes its benefits from year to year, and
pays out differently based on birth year. Vonk says users were not
only figuring out how to get their pension, but also became friendly
with their new assistants.

?They [older adults] find out when they get pensions, what day they
get it, that kind of thing,? Vonk says. ?It?s about convenience, and
they like that they can talk to a robot 24/7 and ask questions. But
they also say they have a new friend at home. In the morning they get
up and say good morning, and when they go to bed, they say good night.
Nobody wanted to give it back.?
-------------

These voice assistants are improving all the time. Understanding
questions better and providing better responses.
When they get incorporated into care robots they will be very close to
creating a companion and nurse for older people.

BillK


From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 12:18:46 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 08:18:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bias
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZyBwsq55S2-O7LU+PfySnRZfebTT939rFNDcWUuq62eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZyBwsq55S2-O7LU+PfySnRZfebTT939rFNDcWUuq62eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2u8UMRV2+NCEKcRc4-MsprPzHq6+n2T4OgcqKVBRGh-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 6:45 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>

*> What if we just dropped the category of race on anything to do with
> government?*


The problem with that is all concentrated in just one word. In theory it's
a great idea but in practice "we" are never going to all decide to do the
same thing about anything and some people, perhaps most people, simply are
NOT going to drop the category of race. Not ever. So should government do
nothing if a well qualified person with a low skin albedo can't find
employment in a big city police department or admittance to a hospital even
if he has the money to pay for it? And if the government did nothing about
that sort of discrimination do you think it would help promote social
cohesion or would it cause chaos and bring us back to the 1950's and
seperate water fountains for white people and coloreds?


> *>And in many cases, though of course not ones having to do with
> childbirth, get rid of identifying a person by gender.*


Should professional tennis matches continue to be segregated by gender?
Should there be a Ladies Professional Golf Association or just a
Professional Golf Association? If things did change would it really make
for a happier more peaceful society? I'm just asking.

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 12:51:22 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 05:51:22 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Warning: contains American politics; do not read!
In-Reply-To: <20190829220702.Horde.LiuvPqA6yHY4pODg2W88cU1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <20190829220702.Horde.LiuvPqA6yHY4pODg2W88cU1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <002801d55f31$a0a98c80$e1fca580$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat
Subject: [ExI] Warning: contains American politics; do not read!

Nothing to see here, citizen, move along.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/tulsi-gabbard-returns-to-campaign-trail-after-
national-guard-deployment/

Stuart LaForge



_______________________________________________



Avant, what the heck do you mean nothing to see here?  Tulsi is drop-dead
gorgeous!  I will vote for her just for having that pretty smile and those
brown eyes, oh mercy.  She's even better looking than Dr. Jill Stein, and I
don't even need to mute the sound while I am watching her speeches.  Tulsi
is my favorite of the 77 candidates by far.

>....Nothing to see here, citizen, move along.

Since you mention it, someone please explain why is it that any time there
is something to see, the cops will stand out there on the sidewalk and say
obviously silly comments such as "Move along, citizens, there is nothing to
see here."

I did a little skit with my scouts.  I put on a cop's hat and stood up
front.  A couple of scouts came by, and I said 

Move along citizens, there is nothing to see here.

Where?

Here.

I don't don't see anything.

That's right, that's what I told you.

Sure, but... when a cop says "there's nothing to see here" there's always
something to see here.

Well, you see there isn't anything to see here.

OK so why did you tell us there is nothing to see here, when we can see
there really isn't anything to see here?

Just so you know there is nothing to see here.

We can see there is nothing to see here!

Well there ya go...

And so forth.  The scouts loved it.

Good luck Tulsi.  If she gets the nomination, the debates will be so much
more interesting.  There dam well will be something to see there: her.

spike




From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 12:59:10 2019
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 08:59:10 -0400
Subject: [ExI] Warning: contains American politics; do not read!
In-Reply-To: <002801d55f31$a0a98c80$e1fca580$@rainier66.com>
References: <20190829220702.Horde.LiuvPqA6yHY4pODg2W88cU1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <002801d55f31$a0a98c80$e1fca580$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJrqPH9ypJ13813C3UQdg1_1y_AkvvFbfatsca=dzzB8dusgLw@mail.gmail.com>

The DNC is not even going to let her into the next primary debate on a
bogus technicality.   The war mongers control most of both parties.   She's
also been consistently smeared as a Russian and Assad appeaser in the press
they control.

I would consider voting for her despite disagreement on many of her
positions but she doesn't have a prayer.



On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 8:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message----
>
> Good luck Tulsi.  If she gets the nomination, the debates will be so much
> more interesting.  There dam well will be something to see there: her.
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 13:12:46 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 06:12:46 -0700
Subject: [ExI] bias
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2u8UMRV2+NCEKcRc4-MsprPzHq6+n2T4OgcqKVBRGh-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZyBwsq55S2-O7LU+PfySnRZfebTT939rFNDcWUuq62eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2u8UMRV2+NCEKcRc4-MsprPzHq6+n2T4OgcqKVBRGh-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004101d55f34$9dace6f0$d906b4d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat



   

>>And in many cases, though of course not ones having to do with childbirth, get rid of identifying a person by gender.

 

>?Should professional tennis matches continue to be segregated by gender? Should there be a Ladies Professional Golf Association or just a Professional Golf Association? If things did change would it really make for a happier more peaceful society? I'm just asking.

 

John K Clark 

 

 

 

It is an interesting question in which I have skin in the game: I have a cousin who runs a Title IX program at a university.  She has a lot to say on this topic, none of which I am at liberty to reveal.

 

Consider this:

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/49522/trans-athlete-wins-two-gold-weightlifting-medals-hank-berrien

 

OK then.  We see that Laurel Hubbard qualified for the 2020 Olympics.  We already have transgender athletes competing in women?s track (and setting records.)  What I am interested in seeing is how the international community will react if (or when) Laurel Hubbard wins the gold in Tokyo next summer.  

 

Consider the macho countries where they aren?t mod and hip like the USA and Europe, where we have outgrown the outdates notion of gender.  Those benighted countries lack hep cats (such as me)  as they suffer from a shortage of hipster daddios and things.  Our society is so advanced, we cannot determine a person?s gender even if he or she is in the process of giving birth.  

 

But plenty of places in the world haven?t yet outgrown gender.  Mexico and Saudi Arabia still has men and women, with little in-between.  Such archaic throwbacks they are, misguided.  How will those macho places deal with transgender athletes?

 

spike

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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 13:20:59 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 06:20:59 -0700
Subject: [ExI] test case dorian
Message-ID: <005001d55f35$c3eb2290$4bc167b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

Theory has it that the continental shelf extending way out to the east of
the Florida Atlantic coast protects it from the most destructive hurricanes.
If you go on Google Maps under Cape Canaveral and hit satellite view, it
shows the shallow water going way out, which tends to weaken hurricanes
before they hit land (the water is plenty warm but there is less of it.)

 

With Dorian, we get a possible demonstration.  When I was growing up about
20 miles due west of Cape Canaveral, we had hurricanes but they seldom
amounted to much: lots of rain, fences blown down, aluminum awnings gone
missing, that sorta thing.

 

spike

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From sparge at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 13:40:46 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:40:46 -0400
Subject: [ExI] bias
In-Reply-To: <004101d55f34$9dace6f0$d906b4d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEZyBwsq55S2-O7LU+PfySnRZfebTT939rFNDcWUuq62eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2u8UMRV2+NCEKcRc4-MsprPzHq6+n2T4OgcqKVBRGh-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004101d55f34$9dace6f0$d906b4d0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f45t4KK4th+c268Z9s3dPP6vbqqYXiy83xeOODcY6QkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 9:16 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Consider this:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.dailywire.com/news/49522/trans-athlete-wins-two-gold-weightlifting-medals-hank-berrien
>
>
>
> OK then.  We see that Laurel Hubbard qualified for the 2020 Olympics.  We
> already have transgender athletes competing in women?s track (and setting
> records.)  What I am interested in seeing is how the international
> community will react if (or when) Laurel Hubbard wins the gold in Tokyo
> next summer.
>

I think that's pretty silly. Those records will be asterisked, of course.

This reminds of a discussion we had back when Oscar Pistorius was
threatening to medal at the Olympics. I held the minority opinion that that
wasn't necessarily fair because his prosthetics might have given him an
advantage.

-Dave
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From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 13:47:04 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:47:04 +0100
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
Message-ID: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Protectors of Mauna Kea Are Fighting Colonialism, Not Science
Julianne Tveten   August 27, 2019

<https://fair.org/home/protectors-of-mauna-kea-are-fighting-colonialism-not-science/>

Some Quotes:
The current demonstrations at Mauna Kea are the culmination of decades
of state land mismanagement and broken promises over the mountain,
dating back to 1968, when the state leased the mountain to the
University of Hawaii.

?In 2014 and 2015,? corporate media outlets ?were obsessed with this
idea of science versus culture, as if our kupuna [elders] haven?t
practiced applied science,? Kaniela Ing, a Mauna Kea protector and
Hawaii Community Bail Fund manager, told FAIR.

While proposals to compromise might appear fair, protectors say, they
dismiss the historical context in Hawaii of colonialism and the
usurpation of Indigenous land that continues today. Thus, these
suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.

At the heart of the Mauna Kea action is thus a challenge not only to a
telescope, but to capital and the pursuit of unmitigated industrial
growth at any cost. It?s no wonder, then, that when corporate-owned
media are tasked with examining this movement, their limitations rear
their heads.
-----------------

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 14:39:32 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:39:32 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thus, these
suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k

The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other way?
Should it be any other way?
Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out
of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.

We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any
other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.

bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 8:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Protectors of Mauna Kea Are Fighting Colonialism, Not Science
> Julianne Tveten   August 27, 2019
>
> <
> https://fair.org/home/protectors-of-mauna-kea-are-fighting-colonialism-not-science/
> >
>
> Some Quotes:
> The current demonstrations at Mauna Kea are the culmination of decades
> of state land mismanagement and broken promises over the mountain,
> dating back to 1968, when the state leased the mountain to the
> University of Hawaii.
>
> ?In 2014 and 2015,? corporate media outlets ?were obsessed with this
> idea of science versus culture, as if our kupuna [elders] haven?t
> practiced applied science,? Kaniela Ing, a Mauna Kea protector and
> Hawaii Community Bail Fund manager, told FAIR.
>
> While proposals to compromise might appear fair, protectors say, they
> dismiss the historical context in Hawaii of colonialism and the
> usurpation of Indigenous land that continues today. Thus, these
> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.
>
> At the heart of the Mauna Kea action is thus a challenge not only to a
> telescope, but to capital and the pursuit of unmitigated industrial
> growth at any cost. It?s no wonder, then, that when corporate-owned
> media are tasked with examining this movement, their limitations rear
> their heads.
> -----------------
>
> BillK
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 14:40:28 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 09:40:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] test case dorian
In-Reply-To: <005001d55f35$c3eb2290$4bc167b0$@rainier66.com>
References: <005001d55f35$c3eb2290$4bc167b0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZNqkp+JQwgwoMqj8wKq+4SeK-49RmAiQ-LBO8Z1_stAQ@mail.gmail.com>

With Dorian, we get a possible demonstration.  When I was growing up about
20 miles due west of Cape Canaveral, we had hurricanes but they seldom
amounted to much: lots of rain, fences blown down, aluminum awnings gone
missing, that sorta thing.



spike


Yeah - and Grey skies.  bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 8:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Theory has it that the continental shelf extending way out to the east of
> the Florida Atlantic coast protects it from the most destructive
> hurricanes.  If you go on Google Maps under Cape Canaveral and hit
> satellite view, it shows the shallow water going way out, which tends to
> weaken hurricanes before they hit land (the water is plenty warm but there
> is less of it.)
>
>
>
> With Dorian, we get a possible demonstration.  When I was growing up about
> 20 miles due west of Cape Canaveral, we had hurricanes but they seldom
> amounted to much: lots of rain, fences blown down, aluminum awnings gone
> missing, that sorta thing.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 15:32:36 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 08:32:36 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>

On Aug 30, 2019, at 7:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Thus, these
> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k
> 
> The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other way?  Should it be any other way?

Huh?

> Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.
> 
> We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
> of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.

Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 15:42:58 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:42:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ0Hta+PKn=VrtP6AgFGQWrmWGTmib-+uznQTzxP78nNA@mail.gmail.com>

Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel
slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?

Regards,

Dan

Yes, of course, and my ancestors are responsible for it.  How far back in
history do you want to go before the sins stop passing down?  I say who did
the crime, does the time, and we didn't do it.  Every family that ever
lived had something done to them in one way or another.  Should we find and
prosecute the descendants of the people who cut off the heads of kings?  In
my case you could help me go after AT and T!

Your attitude reminds me of a Scottish feud where the two clans are still
fighting over something that happened in the 17th century.

There was a country song, the Eagles maybe?  It was titled  "Get over it"

  bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:36 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 7:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Thus, these
> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k
>
> The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other
> way?  Should it be any other way?
>
>
> Huh?
>
> Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out
> of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.
>
> We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any
> other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
> of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.
>
>
> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel
> slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 15:57:28 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:57:28 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ0Hta+PKn=VrtP6AgFGQWrmWGTmib-+uznQTzxP78nNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ0Hta+PKn=VrtP6AgFGQWrmWGTmib-+uznQTzxP78nNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D81DE348-4E94-4478-8C21-E75250B60457@gmail.com>

I like how you (bill w) say you don?t care if the strong take advantage of the weak. That really gave me hope for the kind of future that extropians are trying to build.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> 
> Yes, of course, and my ancestors are responsible for it.  How far back in history do you want to go before the sins stop passing down?  I say who did the crime, does the time, and we didn't do it.  Every family that ever lived had something done to them in one way or another.  Should we find and prosecute the descendants of the people who cut off the heads of kings?  In my case you could help me go after AT and T!
> 
> Your attitude reminds me of a Scottish feud where the two clans are still fighting over something that happened in the 17th century.
> 
> There was a country song, the Eagles maybe?  It was titled  "Get over it"
> 
>   bill w
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:36 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 7:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> Thus, these
>>> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
>>> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
>>> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k
>>> 
>>> The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other way?  Should it be any other way?
>> 
>> Huh?
>> 
>>> Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.
>>> 
>>> We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
>>> of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.
>> 
>> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dan
>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 16:33:24 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:33:24 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 9:57 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

<
> https://fair.org/home/protectors-of-mauna-kea-are-fighting-colonialism-not-science/
> >
>

I should have stopped reading after the ridiculous headline "*Protectors of
Mauna Kea Are Fighting Colonialism, Not Science*", but silly me I didn't.
The author, some dimwit named Julianne Tveten, says Mauna Kea is an
environmentally sensitive conservation district, but construction of the
Thirty Meter Telescope passed all environmental impact studies and I don't
imagine those studies were very difficult because the ecosystem on top of
that mountain is one of the youngest and simplest on the planet. She then
complained that the New York Times was bias because it "*called the
protectors? movement ?creationism,? ridiculing activists? claims that the
telescope was a profit-seeking venture*", it's not bias if it's true and if
that activity doesn't deserve ridicule what does? Tveten attempted to prove
that the Thirty Meter Telescope really was a profit making venture by
pointing out that some of the money to build it came from "*Intel founder
Gordon Moore?s philanthropic organization*". And that is one reason, but
not the only reason, I called her a dimwit.

She also complained about a headline in the Washington Post that said  ?*Native
Hawaiians? Protests Stop Researchers From Studying the Skies*", well the
barbarians shut down the entire observatory for a month and permanently
killed a telescope that would allowed us to see things 10 times dimmer than
anything we can see now, so it's perfectly true, native Hawaiian's protests
*DID* stop researchers from studying the skies. And that's another reason I
called her a dimwit. There are more reasons but you get the idea.

I have come to an interesting conclusion regarding myself, I don't
understand my fellow human beings worth a damn. I can't think of a more
clear cut example of the battle between reason and anti-reason than this
telescope business, and I felt a great sense of outrage that the forces of
reason, despite having won a legal victory, were completely destroyed. I
thought members of this list, who I assumed could see the beauty in science
and the magnificence of the universe, would feel the same way. But in that
I couldn't have been more wrong.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 16:39:58 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 11:39:58 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <D81DE348-4E94-4478-8C21-E75250B60457@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ0Hta+PKn=VrtP6AgFGQWrmWGTmib-+uznQTzxP78nNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D81DE348-4E94-4478-8C21-E75250B60457@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEayVSw=Q3mfsbkmdbWN-=Tdx8ebf_uPY7QM_611_xv0Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 11:00 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I like how you (bill w) say you don?t care if the strong take advantage of
> the weak. That really gave me hope for the kind of future that extropians
> are trying to build.
>
> SR Ballard
>

I never said I approved of it or did not care.  Please read carefully.  All
I am saying that what's done is done and I didn't do it!!!.  The dead are
not my responsibility.  Move on from here.  You must know that the strong
taking advantage of the weak is how it has always been, right?  It's called
evolution.

Would I like to see a world where everyone has the same advantages?  Yes.
But that will never happen unless we evolve from what we are.  Or we modify
ourselves with genetics.  A lot.

bill w

>
> On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel
> slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>
> Yes, of course, and my ancestors are responsible for it.  How far back in
> history do you want to go before the sins stop passing down?  I say who did
> the crime, does the time, and we didn't do it.  Every family that ever
> lived had something done to them in one way or another.  Should we find and
> prosecute the descendants of the people who cut off the heads of kings?  In
> my case you could help me go after AT and T!
>
> Your attitude reminds me of a Scottish feud where the two clans are still
> fighting over something that happened in the 17th century.
>
> There was a country song, the Eagles maybe?  It was titled  "Get over it"
>
>   bill w
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:36 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 7:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> Thus, these
>> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
>> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
>> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k
>>
>> The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other
>> way?  Should it be any other way?
>>
>>
>> Huh?
>>
>> Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out
>> of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.
>>
>> We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any
>> other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
>> of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.
>>
>>
>> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel
>> slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 16:46:55 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 11:46:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>

I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us value
science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters.  I am sure
if I am wrong I will hear about it.  You did the same thing last year when
you accused us of being for Pres. T.  Now I think you are wrong again.
bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 11:37 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 9:57 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> <
>> https://fair.org/home/protectors-of-mauna-kea-are-fighting-colonialism-not-science/
>> >
>>
>
> I should have stopped reading after the ridiculous headline "*Protectors
> of Mauna Kea Are Fighting Colonialism, Not Science*", but silly me I
> didn't. The author, some dimwit named Julianne Tveten, says Mauna Kea is an
> environmentally sensitive conservation district, but construction of the
> Thirty Meter Telescope passed all environmental impact studies and I don't
> imagine those studies were very difficult because the ecosystem on top of
> that mountain is one of the youngest and simplest on the planet. She then
> complained that the New York Times was bias because it "*called the
> protectors? movement ?creationism,? ridiculing activists? claims that the
> telescope was a profit-seeking venture*", it's not bias if it's true and
> if that activity doesn't deserve ridicule what does? Tveten attempted to
> prove that the Thirty Meter Telescope really was a profit making venture by
> pointing out that some of the money to build it came from "*Intel founder
> Gordon Moore?s philanthropic organization*". And that is one reason, but
> not the only reason, I called her a dimwit.
>
> She also complained about a headline in the Washington Post that said  ?*Native
> Hawaiians? Protests Stop Researchers From Studying the Skies*", well the
> barbarians shut down the entire observatory for a month and permanently
> killed a telescope that would allowed us to see things 10 times dimmer than
> anything we can see now, so it's perfectly true, native Hawaiian's
> protests *DID* stop researchers from studying the skies. And that's
> another reason I called her a dimwit. There are more reasons but you get
> the idea.
>
> I have come to an interesting conclusion regarding myself, I don't
> understand my fellow human beings worth a damn. I can't think of a more
> clear cut example of the battle between reason and anti-reason than this
> telescope business, and I felt a great sense of outrage that the forces of
> reason, despite having won a legal victory, were completely destroyed. I
> thought members of this list, who I assumed could see the beauty in science
> and the magnificence of the universe, would feel the same way. But in that
> I couldn't have been more wrong.
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 17:39:25 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 13:39:25 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us value
> science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters.
>

Are we reading the same list?

John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 18:57:03 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 11:57:03 -0700
Subject: [ExI] myth or busted?
Message-ID: <002b01d55f64$b7268160$25738420$@rainier66.com>

 

 

 

I was a huge fan of Mythbusters.  I still have a desperate crush on Cari Byron.  

 

 

What do you think of this comment?  Does this sound reasonable?

 

 

 

The Mythbusters were clearly never strangers to destroying things. Invariably, testing various myths turned into an excuse to blow something up, so as to demonstrate amazing things for their fans. However, there was one time where they used their destructive power to hide something from the fans, instead of sharing it with them. What was it? Ironically enough, it was an explosive, AKA their bread and butter.

 

The cast was understandably cagey when it came to talking about this, but at the Silicon Valley Comicon in 2016, Adam Savage talked about their investigation of an "easily available material and its supposed explosive properties." Savage reported that their discovery was "so explosive" and easy to make, they completely destroyed any and all footage of their discovery. Plus, the cast took a vow of secrecy to never dish about the details to the public. Apparently, the tech-savvy team determined that destroying the footage was the only way to ensure it didn't simply pop up on YouTube a few years down the line, causing amateurs everywhere to go and blow themselves to bits.

 

How serious was all of this? When the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) asked for assistance regarding the danger of homemade bombs, Savage actually forwarded what his team had found. To a government agency devoted to making weapons of war! The show that specializes in explosions had to use all their powers, and that of the government, to hide an explosive discovery from the world. That simply makes us want to know what this thing is more.

 

Read More: https://www.grunge.com/36656/untold-truth-mythbusters/sl/they-have-destroyed-evidence-of-what-they-found?utm_campaign=clip

 

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 19:49:06 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:49:06 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEayVSw=Q3mfsbkmdbWN-=Tdx8ebf_uPY7QM_611_xv0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYBSJACWyrn6Ch+0+6oKEXAXma8q9rYJxmy2F-K7Lx_SQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <80295C01-72F8-4ED1-8CE3-F0EBE976E608@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ0Hta+PKn=VrtP6AgFGQWrmWGTmib-+uznQTzxP78nNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <D81DE348-4E94-4478-8C21-E75250B60457@gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEayVSw=Q3mfsbkmdbWN-=Tdx8ebf_uPY7QM_611_xv0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA800DD5-9134-465F-8181-A548AF5C7D12@gmail.com>

>The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other way?  Should it be any other way?

You literally said the strong SHOULD take advantage of the weak. I know they DO, but I don?t think they should.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 11:00 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> I like how you (bill w) say you don?t care if the strong take advantage of the weak. That really gave me hope for the kind of future that extropians are trying to build.
>> 
>> SR Ballard
> 
> I never said I approved of it or did not care.  Please read carefully.  All I am saying that what's done is done and I didn't do it!!!.  The dead are not my responsibility.  Move on from here.  You must know that the strong taking advantage of the weak is how it has always been, right?  It's called evolution.  
> 
> Would I like to see a world where everyone has the same advantages?  Yes.  But that will never happen unless we evolve from what we are.  Or we modify ourselves with genetics.  A lot.
> 
> bill w
>> 
>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:42 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>> Yes, of course, and my ancestors are responsible for it.  How far back in history do you want to go before the sins stop passing down?  I say who did the crime, does the time, and we didn't do it.  Every family that ever lived had something done to them in one way or another.  Should we find and prosecute the descendants of the people who cut off the heads of kings?  In my case you could help me go after AT and T!
>>> 
>>> Your attitude reminds me of a Scottish feud where the two clans are still fighting over something that happened in the 17th century.
>>> 
>>> There was a country song, the Eagles maybe?  It was titled  "Get over it"
>>> 
>>>   bill w
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 10:36 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 7:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>> Thus, these
>>>>> suggestions elide the stark power asymmetry between historically
>>>>> disenfranchised and marginalized Native Hawaiians and the
>>>>> billion-dollar, state-backed TMT project.  bill k
>>>>> 
>>>>> The strong taking advantage of the weak.  Has it ever been any other way?  Should it be any other way?
>>>> 
>>>> Huh?
>>>> 
>>>>> Are we going to give back land to the American Indians we drove them out of?  Hah.  Repay descendants of slaves?  Double hah.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We owe them nothing.  They lost.  I was born free of Original Sin or any other kind.  I don't feel sorry of any
>>>>> of them.  I do feel sorry for their ancestors.
>>>> 
>>>> Isn?t part of their (Native Americans, Hawaiians, descendants of chattel slavery) current conditions due to what happened to their ancestors?
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Dan
>>>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 19:49:56 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:49:56 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>

Well, let?s take a poll. 

Who supports the protestors?

I don?t.

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 12:39 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us value science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters. 
> 
> Are we reading the same list?
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 20:02:00 2019
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:02:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEptUkQ6RsocE6bjwESKqSaY+f8Am+xV+qaYSiQt5tP=vueY+g@mail.gmail.com>

You said something very interesting a few emaiils upthread. You referred to
reason and anti-reason as the sides in this conflict, and expressed
confusion at what you see as members if this list defecting from what you
understood as our common chosen side: reason.

This distorted and misleading lens through which you view history, as a
grand apocalyptic conflict between reason and anti-reason, gathering
momentum as it echoes down the decades and centuries, culminating in the
eventual triumph of reason over all else, that lens is confusing you.

What is happening in Hawaii is a battle over power. Reason has almost
nothing to do with it. But it is inevitable that when the a power faction
attempts, even sincerely, to recruit reason as a soldier in a power
struggle, their opponents will ignore or attack it, as they would any other
opposing soldier.

I don't know how to fix that, but I do know that for every political action
there is a political reaction, and that if you attempt to inject virtues
into your political fights, your opponents will feel forced to embrace
vices.

This may yet be the epitaph of this country.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 11:43 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us
>> value science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters.
>>
>
> Are we reading the same list?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 20:35:10 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 13:35:10 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ad01d55f72$6ba9fab0$42fdf010$@rainier66.com>

I don?t.

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 12:50 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests

 

Well, let?s take a poll. 

 

Who supports the protestors?

 

I don?t.


On Aug 30, 2019, at 12:39 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

> I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us value science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters. 

 

Are we reading the same list?

 

John K Clark

 

 

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> 
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 20:46:39 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:46:39 -0400
Subject: [ExI] myth or busted?
In-Reply-To: <002b01d55f64$b7268160$25738420$@rainier66.com>
References: <002b01d55f64$b7268160$25738420$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3X0ST3YPmOBUz-4d3_DXFkKX-4yFX6Qixp1Dh73p0yeg@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know if it's the same thing but when I was a kid I read Robert
Heinlein's novel "Farnham's Freehold", and one of the characters made
something he called "a poor man's dynamite" from nothing but bottles of
tincture of iodine and laundry ammonia he got at a drugstore. He didn't
give any more details but he must have been talking about Ammonium
Tri-Iodine, it would be extremely dangerous to make a lot of it because its
super sensitive.

In one Mythbusters show they were duplicating a scene from Breaking Bad to
find the ultimate acid for dissolving human flesh (they used a dead cow).
Ultimately they decided the best way to dissolve a dead body was with a
mixture of 3 parts Sulfuric Acid and one part of a mystery liquid that they
refused to name. But it's clear the mystery liquid was a 30% concentration
of hydrogen peroxide and they had brewed up something called "Piranha
solution"; labs find it useful when they absolutely positively have to get
rid of every last spek of organic material on their equipment. But if you
use this devil's brew you've got to be extremely careful, and you don't
want to use more than a 30% concentration, if you do it will blow up when
you mix it.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 20:53:42 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 15:53:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d55f72$6ba9fab0$42fdf010$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d55f72$6ba9fab0$42fdf010$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZvxuahWjjehT2oaACV=spMi-W-hiuF8KRhFeX4TDf=Uw@mail.gmail.com>

I don't  - primitive superstitions - at least that's the outward reason
  bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I don?t.
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2019 12:50 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
>
>
>
> Well, let?s take a poll.
>
>
>
> Who supports the protestors?
>
>
>
> I don?t.
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2019, at 12:39 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us
> value science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters.
>
>
>
> Are we reading the same list?
>
>
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 20:55:16 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:55:16 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:01 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> Well, let?s take a poll. *
> *Who supports the protestors?*
> *I don?t.*
>

Then why are you far more angry with me than the protestors? Are you
prepared to come right and say "I support the astronomers and not the
protestors" without insisting on adding on a "but"?

John K Clark
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From steinberg.will at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 21:12:58 2019
From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:12:58 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKrqSyFbexQxg2ZcxhL8Ki64XFZKEgmLKoFbbtT5PQGFO_xNjQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bill --

If the strong take advantage of the weak, what does it mean that these
protesters are able to throw a wrench into the telescope plans?  The strong
who want to build the scope should have no problem beating down the weak
protestors unless the former are pussies*, no?

I support the protestors.  And the telescope builders.  Is that so hard?
Just see what happens.  Or do something about it.

*Forgive the use of this word with a pejorative/diminutive to women origin,
but plenty of words have questionable origins (cf. stupid, idiot, &c) and
we use them.  Not that many on this list would care, even though they
probably should, but I figure why not make the qualification
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 21:12:38 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:12:38 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQ6RsocE6bjwESKqSaY+f8Am+xV+qaYSiQt5tP=vueY+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2We+NZp_imay64r41JW=0Ly3Wt0qpDuvV1SKi6Mhn55g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:09 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> What is happening in Hawaii is a battle over power.*


I agree, the Hawaiians destroyed the telescope because they could, they
wanted to exercise their power, and after Aquaman and Dwayne (The Rock)
Johnson got involved they were unstoppable.

 > *Reason has almost nothing to do with it.*


I could not have said it better myself!

This part is for Bill, please reread Darin's post and let me know if you
still think I'm crazy for saying some members of this list are on the side
of the barbarians.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 21:15:49 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:15:49 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <00ad01d55f72$6ba9fab0$42fdf010$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2fdnqVaQX4h1WkcZyG-nT8oNxmTJG2L_bb5BZNAkX0WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> I don?t.*
>

I know, I never thought you did Spike.

 John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 21:56:01 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:56:01 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAKrqSyFbexQxg2ZcxhL8Ki64XFZKEgmLKoFbbtT5PQGFO_xNjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEboKZzbj9oAJ8KRi0z5u_iPT-xgg_RHdtabT=8mUaB1Zw@mail.gmail.com>

If the strong take advantage of the weak, what does it mean that these
protesters are able to throw a wrench into the telescope plans?  The strong
who want to build the scope should have no problem beating down the weak
protestors unless the former are pussies*, no?  will

My former email explains this, I think.  No judge is making the police
enforce the court decision.  Assuming the judge is elected, then we can see
why he/she won't do anything.  But I really don't know.  bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:15 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Bill --
>
> If the strong take advantage of the weak, what does it mean that these
> protesters are able to throw a wrench into the telescope plans?  The strong
> who want to build the scope should have no problem beating down the weak
> protestors unless the former are pussies*, no?
>
> I support the protestors.  And the telescope builders.  Is that so hard?
> Just see what happens.  Or do something about it.
>
> *Forgive the use of this word with a pejorative/diminutive to women
> origin, but plenty of words have questionable origins (cf. stupid, idiot,
> &c) and we use them.  Not that many on this list would care, even though
> they probably should, but I figure why not make the qualification
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 22:12:33 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 15:12:33 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2fdnqVaQX4h1WkcZyG-nT8oNxmTJG2L_bb5BZNAkX0WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
 <00ad01d55f72$6ba9fab0$42fdf010$@rainier66.com>
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Message-ID: <005901d55f80$061b1b30$12515190$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 2:16 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

> I don?t.

 

I know, I never thought you did Spike.

 

 John K Clark

 

 

 

It isn?t just astronomy.  You already know I live for astronomy.  I get instant messaging any time anything really big happens.  I am on the LIGO community circle.  This is the most exciting time to be alive for any astronomy fan who ever lived.

 

There is something else that is big.  I didn?t realize until Will or someone pointed out that the telescope site is within a national park.  All the rules are different with those parks.  In California, if you take weed inside a national park you can end up in jail.  The feds make the rules there.  

 

National parks are sacred to plenty of us who don?t even have an invisible man to pray to.  Those parks are as close to a sacred place as an atheist nature lover will find.  I am that, and those parks (all of them) are cherished hallowed ground.  

 

OK so now we have protestors functionally seizing a national park.  This cannot stand.  The national parks belong to all of us.  They are sacred as goddam hell.

 

spike

 

 

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From interzone at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:15:30 2019
From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:15:30 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJrqPH-hwO=Jg3N-r6c2Ci2Dmkr7vnxCQKZsy3QpmdD1HGX11A@mail.gmail.com>

I've been quiet on this thread, but I certainly don't.  John and I can
agree on that at least.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:59 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Well, let?s take a poll.
>
> Who supports the protestors?
>
> I don?t.
>
> On Aug 30, 2019, at 12:39 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > I think you are seriously in the dark about this group.  All of us
>> value science and if I am not mistaken no one supports the protesters.
>>
>
> Are we reading the same list?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:20:31 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:20:31 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com>

I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up any confusion.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:55 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:01 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > Well, let?s take a poll. 
>> Who supports the protestors?
>> I don?t.
>  
> Then why are you far more angry with me than the protestors? Are you prepared to come right and say "I support the astronomers and not the protestors" without insisting on adding on a "but"?
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:34:42 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:34:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <005901d55f80$061b1b30$12515190$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbhvhEf9Fk6+kbOiPFwUjLQJUFmSLkkorcwHNxXzCsdQw@mail.gmail.com>

OK so now we have protestors functionally seizing a national park.  This
cannot stand.  The national parks belong to all of us.  They are sacred as
goddam hell.  spike

Hell is sacred?  Well, why not.  It does remind me of a Playboy cartoon of
long ago by Gahan Wilson.  A church scene was shown, but instead of crosses
on the altar, etc. there were big Ns.  And the line is:  Is Nothing Sacred?

bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 5:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *John Clark via extropy-chat
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2019 2:16 PM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Cc:* John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> *> **I don?t.*
>
>
>
> I know, I never thought you did Spike.
>
>
>
>  John K Clark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It isn?t just astronomy.  You already know I live for astronomy.  I get
> instant messaging any time anything really big happens.  I am on the LIGO
> community circle.  This is the most exciting time to be alive for any
> astronomy fan who ever lived.
>
>
>
> There is something else that is big.  I didn?t realize until Will or
> someone pointed out that the telescope site is within a national park.  All
> the rules are different with those parks.  In California, if you take weed
> inside a national park you can end up in jail.  The feds make the rules
> there.
>
>
>
> National parks are sacred to plenty of us who don?t even have an invisible
> man to pray to.  Those parks are as close to a sacred place as an atheist
> nature lover will find.  I am that, and those parks (all of them) are
> cherished hallowed ground.
>
>
>
> OK so now we have protestors functionally seizing a national park.  This
> cannot stand.  The national parks belong to all of us.  They are sacred as
> goddam hell.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:44:51 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:44:51 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv24PXcqo-wUyOY3ivxB1YD-ra-mmWN3C8BT7NiwXPo97w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> *> I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up
> any confusion.*
>

I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't
understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors.

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:46:42 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:46:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJrqPH-hwO=Jg3N-r6c2Ci2Dmkr7vnxCQKZsy3QpmdD1HGX11A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:23 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> *I've been quiet on this thread, but I certainly don't.  John and I can
> agree on that at least.*
>

Thank you Dylan.

 John K Clark
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 22:52:17 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 15:52:17 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEboKZzbj9oAJ8KRi0z5u_iPT-xgg_RHdtabT=8mUaB1Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <780DFDC1-483C-4D04-9803-B5D1C10C8A34@gmail.com>

Point of information: seats on the Supreme Court of Hawaii are not filled by election.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 2:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> If the strong take advantage of the weak, what does it mean that these protesters are able to throw a wrench into the telescope plans?  The strong who want to build the scope should have no problem beating down the weak protestors unless the former are pussies*, no?  will
> 
> My former email explains this, I think.  No judge is making the police enforce the court decision.  Assuming the judge is elected, then we can see why he/she won't do anything.  But I really don't know.  bill w
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 4:15 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Bill --
>> 
>> If the strong take advantage of the weak, what does it mean that these protesters are able to throw a wrench into the telescope plans?  The strong who want to build the scope should have no problem beating down the weak protestors unless the former are pussies*, no?
>> 
>> I support the protestors.  And the telescope builders.  Is that so hard?  Just see what happens.  Or do something about it. 
>> 
>> *Forgive the use of this word with a pejorative/diminutive to women origin, but plenty of words have questionable origins (cf. stupid, idiot, &c) and we use them.  Not that many on this list would care, even though they probably should, but I figure why not make the qualification
> 
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From danust2012 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 23:01:28 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:01:28 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv24PXcqo-wUyOY3ivxB1YD-ra-mmWN3C8BT7NiwXPo97w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>

On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up any confusion.
> 
> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors. 

Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person who supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on supporting the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the cause. Is it really hard to understand why you might criticize her ? even if you both support that same cause?

Likewise, one might be against a cause someone else supports yet still see that the supporter of a cause is, while wrong (by your lights?) about the cause is still fair-minded, open to discussion, and doesn?t scold everyone who disagrees with her as if they?re supporting the worst evil to ever be conceived by the human mind.

I believe the above should be 101 level stuff in dealing with controversies and disagreements. Of course, some folks here seem to believe sneering louder, longer, and more frequently is the road to resolving all disagreements. You know, folks who believe the ends always justifies the means. ;)

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
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From spike at rainier66.com  Fri Aug 30 23:26:34 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:26:34 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <010001d55f8a$5d304df0$1790e9d0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat
Subject: Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests

 

On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

>>? I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up any confusion.

 

>?I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors? John

 

 

John you do realize you are the person who vents his anger in public more often and more vigorously than anyone here, ja?  

 

spike  

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From dsunley at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 23:34:31 2019
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:34:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEptUkQdzHG9SNBGBBVC-s83-HYUPGZOA98YK5DT9fEqjD1O_w@mail.gmail.com>

For myself, I prefer a telescope to exist there than not.

The right to build a telescope there is contingent on ownership of the
land. Those who can acquire and maintain ownership of the land have the
right to determine its disposition. Acquiring and maintaining control if
the land is a political power contest, one which is by no means resolved.

I remain troubled by the characterization of our opponents in this contest
as "barbarians". Barbarians stand opposed to reason, yes? But they only
became opposed to reason when we seized the mantle of reason as a
justification for the exertion of power we had already acquired. When we
define ourselves with reason, what else can our opponents do but oppose it?
They are barbarians only in response to our identification of ourselves as
"civilization".

The current toxicity in modern politics began when one side, finding itself
ineffective on policy disputes, began to define their disagreements with
the other party as moral. The other party then has no option but to define
themselves in opposition to that morality, or to cease be able to define
themselves at all.

And people would literally rather die, ideally fighting, then surrender
that definition of self.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:10 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>> *> I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up
>> any confusion.*
>>
>
> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't
> understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors.
>
>
> Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person who
> supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on supporting
> the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the cause. Is
> it really hard to understand why you might criticize her ? even if you both
> support that same cause?
>
> Likewise, one might be against a cause someone else supports yet still see
> that the supporter of a cause is, while wrong (by your lights?) about the
> cause is still fair-minded, open to discussion, and doesn?t scold everyone
> who disagrees with her as if they?re supporting the worst evil to ever be
> conceived by the human mind.
>
> I believe the above should be 101 level stuff in dealing with
> controversies and disagreements. Of course, some folks here seem to believe
> sneering louder, longer, and more frequently is the road to resolving all
> disagreements. You know, folks who believe the ends always justifies the
> means. ;)
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 00:13:31 2019
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:13:31 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQdzHG9SNBGBBVC-s83-HYUPGZOA98YK5DT9fEqjD1O_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEptUkSX=ikZ_VJGLqAwxXEJ13Q6-Kq0F8geMx8Dyxwa+CcZuA@mail.gmail.com>

The reason, John, that some people are responding poorly to your righteous
anger is that, by expressing it in those terms, you demonstrate, with utter
clarity, that you have been /thoroughly/ infected with one of the most
cancerous memes in the history of humanity: that the possession of a
virtue, is this case "reason", justifies the acquisition, continued
possession, and exercise of power over those that lack it.

You are somewhat unusual, in this day and age, in defining reason as a
virtue, but that doesn't matter. It's the general template of regarding a
virtue, /any/ virtue, as a justification for power, that kills entire
societies. From this innocuous-looking hellmouth has sprung every atrocity
in Western Civilization since the fall of the Roman Empire, from the
Crusades, through the Reformation, the Shoah, the Antifa riots, and most
mass shootings in America today. It is a mental illness so universal and
pervasive that, like water to fishes, it is almost completely invisible
until it is pointed out.

You may take solace in the fact that you are not alone in this condition.
Nearly every politically conscious adult in Western Civilization is
infected. Every political party on the entire spectrum strongly encourages
it, and every media channel is a carrier.

When one's political opponents are seen, by literally everyone in every
faction, not merely as mistaken but as literally evil, civil war, or the
brutal authoritarianism necessary to temporarily suppress it, is very close
behind.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:34 PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:

> For myself, I prefer a telescope to exist there than not.
>
> The right to build a telescope there is contingent on ownership of the
> land. Those who can acquire and maintain ownership of the land have the
> right to determine its disposition. Acquiring and maintaining control if
> the land is a political power contest, one which is by no means resolved.
>
> I remain troubled by the characterization of our opponents in this contest
> as "barbarians". Barbarians stand opposed to reason, yes? But they only
> became opposed to reason when we seized the mantle of reason as a
> justification for the exertion of power we had already acquired. When we
> define ourselves with reason, what else can our opponents do but oppose it?
> They are barbarians only in response to our identification of ourselves as
> "civilization".
>
> The current toxicity in modern politics began when one side, finding
> itself ineffective on policy disputes, began to define their disagreements
> with the other party as moral. The other party then has no option but to
> define themselves in opposition to that morality, or to cease be able to
> define themselves at all.
>
> And people would literally rather die, ideally fighting, then surrender
> that definition of self.
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:10 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> *> I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears
>>> up any confusion.*
>>>
>>
>> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't
>> understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors.
>>
>>
>> Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person who
>> supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on supporting
>> the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the cause. Is
>> it really hard to understand why you might criticize her ? even if you both
>> support that same cause?
>>
>> Likewise, one might be against a cause someone else supports yet still
>> see that the supporter of a cause is, while wrong (by your lights?) about
>> the cause is still fair-minded, open to discussion, and doesn?t scold
>> everyone who disagrees with her as if they?re supporting the worst evil to
>> ever be conceived by the human mind.
>>
>> I believe the above should be 101 level stuff in dealing with
>> controversies and disagreements. Of course, some folks here seem to believe
>> sneering louder, longer, and more frequently is the road to resolving all
>> disagreements. You know, folks who believe the ends always justifies the
>> means. ;)
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 00:21:35 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:21:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkSX=ikZ_VJGLqAwxXEJ13Q6-Kq0F8geMx8Dyxwa+CcZuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaVLNeGXzVVjJ3i4YJbUGHZwJucP+2eHs-WFFcbAN-iXw@mail.gmail.com>

You are somewhat unusual, in this day and age, in defining reason as a
virtue  Darin

I would like for you to expand on this, if you will, and supply data if you
have it.  bill w

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:16 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The reason, John, that some people are responding poorly to your righteous
> anger is that, by expressing it in those terms, you demonstrate, with utter
> clarity, that you have been /thoroughly/ infected with one of the most
> cancerous memes in the history of humanity: that the possession of a
> virtue, is this case "reason", justifies the acquisition, continued
> possession, and exercise of power over those that lack it.
>
> You are somewhat unusual, in this day and age, in defining reason as a
> virtue, but that doesn't matter. It's the general template of regarding a
> virtue, /any/ virtue, as a justification for power, that kills entire
> societies. From this innocuous-looking hellmouth has sprung every atrocity
> in Western Civilization since the fall of the Roman Empire, from the
> Crusades, through the Reformation, the Shoah, the Antifa riots, and most
> mass shootings in America today. It is a mental illness so universal and
> pervasive that, like water to fishes, it is almost completely invisible
> until it is pointed out.
>
> You may take solace in the fact that you are not alone in this condition.
> Nearly every politically conscious adult in Western Civilization is
> infected. Every political party on the entire spectrum strongly encourages
> it, and every media channel is a carrier.
>
> When one's political opponents are seen, by literally everyone in every
> faction, not merely as mistaken but as literally evil, civil war, or the
> brutal authoritarianism necessary to temporarily suppress it, is very close
> behind.
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:34 PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For myself, I prefer a telescope to exist there than not.
>>
>> The right to build a telescope there is contingent on ownership of the
>> land. Those who can acquire and maintain ownership of the land have the
>> right to determine its disposition. Acquiring and maintaining control if
>> the land is a political power contest, one which is by no means resolved.
>>
>> I remain troubled by the characterization of our opponents in this
>> contest as "barbarians". Barbarians stand opposed to reason, yes? But they
>> only became opposed to reason when we seized the mantle of reason as a
>> justification for the exertion of power we had already acquired. When we
>> define ourselves with reason, what else can our opponents do but oppose it?
>> They are barbarians only in response to our identification of ourselves as
>> "civilization".
>>
>> The current toxicity in modern politics began when one side, finding
>> itself ineffective on policy disputes, began to define their disagreements
>> with the other party as moral. The other party then has no option but to
>> define themselves in opposition to that morality, or to cease be able to
>> define themselves at all.
>>
>> And people would literally rather die, ideally fighting, then surrender
>> that definition of self.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:10 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> *> I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears
>>>> up any confusion.*
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still
>>> don't understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors.
>>>
>>>
>>> Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person
>>> who supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on
>>> supporting the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the
>>> cause. Is it really hard to understand why you might criticize her ? even
>>> if you both support that same cause?
>>>
>>> Likewise, one might be against a cause someone else supports yet still
>>> see that the supporter of a cause is, while wrong (by your lights?) about
>>> the cause is still fair-minded, open to discussion, and doesn?t scold
>>> everyone who disagrees with her as if they?re supporting the worst evil to
>>> ever be conceived by the human mind.
>>>
>>> I believe the above should be 101 level stuff in dealing with
>>> controversies and disagreements. Of course, some folks here seem to believe
>>> sneering louder, longer, and more frequently is the road to resolving all
>>> disagreements. You know, folks who believe the ends always justifies the
>>> means. ;)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>
>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From dsunley at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 00:40:40 2019
From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:40:40 -0600
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaVLNeGXzVVjJ3i4YJbUGHZwJucP+2eHs-WFFcbAN-iXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAEptUkSRLv0O+7HLsvULnBL-ecbF5SC-eT2oPrEReQEBk0u07A@mail.gmail.com>

In contemporary US media political discourse, including social media, the
virtues plugged into the template are much more frequently "compassion",
"justice" "equality", and "intellect". "Reason", in the Enlightenment
sense, is somewhat out of fashion on both sides of the aisle, though the
Grey Tribe is known to slot it in there from time to time.

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> You are somewhat unusual, in this day and age, in defining reason as a
> virtue  Darin
>
> I would like for you to expand on this, if you will, and supply data if
> you have it.  bill w
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:16 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> The reason, John, that some people are responding poorly to your
>> righteous anger is that, by expressing it in those terms, you demonstrate,
>> with utter clarity, that you have been /thoroughly/ infected with one of
>> the most cancerous memes in the history of humanity: that the possession of
>> a virtue, is this case "reason", justifies the acquisition, continued
>> possession, and exercise of power over those that lack it.
>>
>> You are somewhat unusual, in this day and age, in defining reason as a
>> virtue, but that doesn't matter. It's the general template of regarding a
>> virtue, /any/ virtue, as a justification for power, that kills entire
>> societies. From this innocuous-looking hellmouth has sprung every atrocity
>> in Western Civilization since the fall of the Roman Empire, from the
>> Crusades, through the Reformation, the Shoah, the Antifa riots, and most
>> mass shootings in America today. It is a mental illness so universal and
>> pervasive that, like water to fishes, it is almost completely invisible
>> until it is pointed out.
>>
>> You may take solace in the fact that you are not alone in this condition.
>> Nearly every politically conscious adult in Western Civilization is
>> infected. Every political party on the entire spectrum strongly encourages
>> it, and every media channel is a carrier.
>>
>> When one's political opponents are seen, by literally everyone in every
>> faction, not merely as mistaken but as literally evil, civil war, or the
>> brutal authoritarianism necessary to temporarily suppress it, is very close
>> behind.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:34 PM Darin Sunley <dsunley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For myself, I prefer a telescope to exist there than not.
>>>
>>> The right to build a telescope there is contingent on ownership of the
>>> land. Those who can acquire and maintain ownership of the land have the
>>> right to determine its disposition. Acquiring and maintaining control if
>>> the land is a political power contest, one which is by no means resolved.
>>>
>>> I remain troubled by the characterization of our opponents in this
>>> contest as "barbarians". Barbarians stand opposed to reason, yes? But they
>>> only became opposed to reason when we seized the mantle of reason as a
>>> justification for the exertion of power we had already acquired. When we
>>> define ourselves with reason, what else can our opponents do but oppose it?
>>> They are barbarians only in response to our identification of ourselves as
>>> "civilization".
>>>
>>> The current toxicity in modern politics began when one side, finding
>>> itself ineffective on policy disputes, began to define their disagreements
>>> with the other party as moral. The other party then has no option but to
>>> define themselves in opposition to that morality, or to cease be able to
>>> define themselves at all.
>>>
>>> And people would literally rather die, ideally fighting, then surrender
>>> that definition of self.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019, 5:10 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 30, 2019, at 3:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> *> I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears
>>>>> up any confusion.*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still
>>>> don't understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person
>>>> who supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on
>>>> supporting the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the
>>>> cause. Is it really hard to understand why you might criticize her ? even
>>>> if you both support that same cause?
>>>>
>>>> Likewise, one might be against a cause someone else supports yet still
>>>> see that the supporter of a cause is, while wrong (by your lights?) about
>>>> the cause is still fair-minded, open to discussion, and doesn?t scold
>>>> everyone who disagrees with her as if they?re supporting the worst evil to
>>>> ever be conceived by the human mind.
>>>>
>>>> I believe the above should be 101 level stuff in dealing with
>>>> controversies and disagreements. Of course, some folks here seem to believe
>>>> sneering louder, longer, and more frequently is the road to resolving all
>>>> disagreements. You know, folks who believe the ends always justifies the
>>>> means. ;)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>>
>>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 00:51:44 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:51:44 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv24PXcqo-wUyOY3ivxB1YD-ra-mmWN3C8BT7NiwXPo97w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <82088CC2-E63A-4C6B-8063-977F06E9FF39@gmail.com>

I?m not more angry with you than the protestors. I am more upset with the protestors. 

SR Ballard

> On Aug 30, 2019, at 5:44 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 6:31 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> > I support the scientists and not the protestors. I hope that clears up any confusion.
> 
> I'm very glad to hear you say that! But I'm still confused, I still don't understand why you're more angry with me than the protestors. 
> 
>  John K Clark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Aug 31 06:32:41 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 23:32:41 -0700
Subject: [ExI] Warning: contains American politics; do not read!
In-Reply-To: <mailman.32.1567172476.1214.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <20190830233241.Horde.Wr8zgCxWtozWC0p5oYFvwxn@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Quoting Dylan Distasio:

> The DNC is not even going to let her into the next primary debate on a
> bogus technicality.   The war mongers control most of both parties.   She's
> also been consistently smeared as a Russian and Assad appeaser in the press
> they control.

Not to mention the LGBTQ+ community for not paying homage to their  
small but very vocal minority.

> I would consider voting for her despite disagreement on many of her
> positions but she doesn't have a prayer.

That is assuming there is any possibility of a fair election when the  
federal agency that enforces election law no longer has a quorum with  
which to continue to operate:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/26/2020-campaign-finance-enforcement-resignations-1475596

---------------Excerpt------------------------
"The federal agency regulating campaign finance has been rendered  
powerless heading into the 2020 election cycle, with the resignation  
of another commissioner leaving it unable to punish violations of  
election law.

Matthew Petersen, a commissioner at the Federal Election Commission  
for 11 years, plans to leave his post on Aug. 31. There are normally  
six FEC commissioners, but Petersen?s departure will bring the already  
depleted board down to three. And because FEC regulations require four  
or more commissioners to vote on enforcement actions, new regulations  
and other matters brought before the body, it will function only on an  
administrative level without new appointees from President Donald  
Trump."
--------------------------------------------

This significantly increases the chances of John Clark's nightmare of  
having to choose between Trump-for-life or civil war coming to pass. I  
hope it doesn't come to this, but Tulsi is the only candidate that  
*could* fight a civil war if necessary. Especially since according to  
the "fake news" Trump keeps joking about serving more than two terms:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-twitter-russia-mueller-investigation-report-james-comey-fbi-a9085321.html

Our republic is in danger. Tulsi might be our best hope.

Stuart LaForge








From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 10:47:07 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:47:07 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv2y932m9A3v2MCuX2OWtR4RtDZxOKU7emCh0zHepEnccw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:11 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*> Let?s say you support a given cause. Let?s say there?s another person
> who supports that cause too. Let?s say, though you agree with her on
> supporting the cause, that she unfairly attacks those who don?t support the
> cause.*
>

Unfairly? Name one time I made a factually incorrect statement about those
protesters.

 John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 10:53:15 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:53:15 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <010001d55f8a$5d304df0$1790e9d0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1A=DMnpC2c=JNBAnhqKvdcRckHd0gdie6MGt4XUQJ-8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


*> John you do realize you are the person who vents his anger in public
> more often and more vigorously than anyone here, ja? *
>

Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 11:42:42 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 07:42:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAEptUkQdzHG9SNBGBBVC-s83-HYUPGZOA98YK5DT9fEqjD1O_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv07OcrYzs49Fda4JVFfjKbeK6TkZcyyoOcjBT9DYhvPLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:37 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*>For myself, I prefer a telescope to exist there than not.*
>

Good, that's a fine sentence, BUT after that for some reason you felt the
need to add 4 additional paragraphs.

*> The right to build a telescope there is contingent on ownership of the
> land. Those who can acquire and maintain ownership of the land have the
> right to determine its disposition.*
>

And the law determines who has ownership of the land and the law determines
its disposition. And the law said the Astronomers could determine its
disposition. And the law had absolutely *nothing* to do with the outcome of
this confrontation because criminals broke the law, *and they got away with
it. *


> *> I remain troubled by the characterization of our opponents in this
> contest as "barbarians".*
>

Wow, you get troubled easily! If it's no longer politically correct to use
the word "barbarian" even against criminals who illegally destroyed a
wonderful humanistic instrument like the Thirty Meter Telescope because
they could and for no other reason then the word "barbarian" should be
permanently removed from the English language because it will never be
needed. Something like that was depicted in Orwell's 1984, they were
developing a lew language called "newspeak" that had far fewer words than
English, they were doing it because it was impossible to say something
politically incorrect in newspeak.

 John K Clark
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 31 12:48:26 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 05:48:26 -0700
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1A=DMnpC2c=JNBAnhqKvdcRckHd0gdie6MGt4XUQJ-8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <007601d55ffa$62605200$2720f600$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 3:53 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Cc: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests

 

 

 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > wrote:

 

> John you do realize you are the person who vents his anger in public more often and more vigorously than anyone here, ja? 

 

Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.

 

John K Clark

 

 

Eh, Johnny, you are one of our seasoned veterans here, me lad.  Let it slide like water off a duck?s back.

 

I struggle to understand how anyone can possibly be in a grumpy mood when we are alive and well to witness a black hole devour a neutron star.  To be alive and be aware, to be here, now, to be the among the first privileged humans in all the generations to see that, a gravitational lensed signal no less, oh life is goooood, life is good.

 

spike

 

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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 13:03:42 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 08:03:42 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1A=DMnpC2c=JNBAnhqKvdcRckHd0gdie6MGt4XUQJ-8g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <AC0906A3-03F3-4C1E-B22C-B30CCED8BE96@gmail.com>

> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.

No. If you feel that way, then please prove it. Go back through this email thread and count the number of posts you have made dehumanizing the protestors and raging against their actions. Now make a separate tally for each person who says anything involving you. 

I promise that you have sent more emails about it than any particular person has ?against? you.

>for some reason you felt the need to write another four paragraphs

People can do that, you know? People have opinions that they like to share. That?s not a thoughtcrime. I don?t understand why you want one sentence answers when other people are trying to have a conversation. Honestly, you?re the one who is being kind of sensitive here. You blow up on anyone who refuses to rail against the protestors and you say that person must hate science, and otherwise accuse them of being a horrible person. 

> barbarians 

You accuse people who dislike the term barbarian to be dangerously flirting with newspeak. That?s not the case. 

?a person from an alien land, culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent ?used chiefly in historical references?

1. ?Alien land? nope, right here at home
2. ?Alien culture? I suppose you see it that way, I don?t 
3. ?Alien group? maybe you see it that way, I don?t. I?ve met plenty of Hawaiians in my life.
4. ?Inferior? I may be wrong, but I believe this usually either means ?morally inferior? (ie not Xian) which I say ?no? or to ?technologically inferior? which is not true either. They have social media and computers etc.
5. ?Uncivilized? They are part of a civilization. For the broader part they are not being ?uncultured? and slinging personal ad hominems. 
6. ?Violent? They don?t seem very violent to me. I haven?t found any mention of them dragging scientists out of cars and attempting to beat them to death or sexually assault them or other similar things that happen to medical aid workers in Africa. They?ve been arrested, yes, but not for violence. 


?barbarous person : a rude, crude, uneducated, or uncivilized person?

1. ?Rude? they don?t seem to be personally rude.
2. ?Crude? I haven?t heard any crass jokes
3. ?Uneducated? perhaps you believe they were failed by the educational system?
4. ?Uncivilized? They seem to be staging a non-violent protest. Seems quite civilized to me. No, they?re not following the judgement, but people were breaking the law by trying to desegregate places as well. Breaking the law doesn?t automatically mean morality or immortality. It depends on the circumstances.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 31, 2019, at 5:53 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> > John you do realize you are the person who vents his anger in public more often and more vigorously than anyone here, ja? 
> 
> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
> 
> John K Clark
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From spike at rainier66.com  Sat Aug 31 13:14:30 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 06:14:30 -0700
Subject: [ExI] betting: was RE:  Warning: contains American politics;
 do not read!
Message-ID: <009001d55ffe$06141910$123c4b30$@rainier66.com>


Those of you who played Robin Hanson's Ideas Futures years ago may be entertained by the modern real-money incarnation of it:

https://www.predictit.org/markets/detail/3633/Who-will-win-the-2020-Democratic-presidential-nomination

I have been playing it off and on for about the last few years.  So far I am net positive.  The most active trading there is about politics.  They have other stuff, but as Robin Hanson discovered 20 yrs ago, the target-rich hunting ground is still in betting with the political junkies, perhaps because people who follow this kinda thing have nothing better to do.

I made some money earlier in the cycle with this strategy: go to the meme Who will win the 2020 Democratic presidential nomination (link above) note that there 32 candidates selling for at least one cent (Predict_It only deals in integer pennies.)  Earlier in the cycle I bought up a dozen highest ranking penny stocks, 100 shares of each, so I had a dollar invested in each candidate, then put a standing sell order at 2.  Of those dozen, five sold for 2, returning 10 bucks, netting me a five dollar profit.

Currently I am still holding seven penny stocks which never sold and are unlikely to ever go to 2 cents, so I will take a bath on those, for a net loss of 2 bucks.  Some of these guys I never heard of.  John Delaney?  Chris Murphy?  Dwayne Johnson?

My Predict_It rank is Diviner, which is based on overall profit percentage.

The ideas stock market to me is intriguing for many reasons.  People there buy stock based not on who they want to win an election but rather on the probability of who they think will win an election, which is a different question.

spike





From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 13:15:59 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 08:15:59 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1A=DMnpC2c=JNBAnhqKvdcRckHd0gdie6MGt4XUQJ-8g@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZHCg0Vrygi=BA_if9muXaZyL7sA90+H0jQRZCR6+2LfQ@mail.gmail.com>

John, I have not read any post from anyone that I would characterize as
angry with you.  Impatient, yes.  A bit frustrated, yes.  But not anger.
It's just fine with me that you rant about something, but you won't leave
it at that.  You go on and on, as if trying to get us to see the importance
of it, when we already do.

Do you think that we don't care as much about it because we are not ranting
too?  For me, that's just not my style, no matter how bad the problem is.
bill w

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 5:59 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
> *> John you do realize you are the person who vents his anger in public
>> more often and more vigorously than anyone here, ja? *
>>
>
> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 14:11:42 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:11:42 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZHCg0Vrygi=BA_if9muXaZyL7sA90+H0jQRZCR6+2LfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:25 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> John, I have not read any post from anyone that I would characterize as
> angry with you.  Impatient, yes.  A bit frustrated, yes.  But not anger.
> It's just fine with me that you rant about something, but you won't leave
> it at that.  You go on and on, as if trying to get us to see the importance
> of it, when we already do.
>
> Do you think that we don't care as much about it because we are not
> ranting too?
>

In a word yes. And as evidence I need look no further than you're very
post, it's all about me and says nothing about the protestors who illegally
destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 14:56:08 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:56:08 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <AC0906A3-03F3-4C1E-B22C-B30CCED8BE96@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1Wh6FO2C=9A08pEi_GoyJmJTNL5BjocyJgg6HUYegDvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:07 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
>
>
> *> No. If you feel that way, then please prove it.*
>

I need only to point at the very post I'm responding to right now.

*> They don?t seem very violent to me.*


For the first time in over 50 years the entire observatory was shut down
and shut down for an entire month, do you think they did that for no
reason? The astronomers shut everything down because they were intimidated
by violence and the threat of violence and because they knew the police
would not protect them from barbarians despite what the law says.

*> You accuse people who dislike the term barbarian to be dangerously
> flirting with newspeak. That?s not the case. ?a person from an alien land,
> culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent *
>

Then my usage of the word "barbarians" was entirely correct because the
criminals who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope and prevented new
knowledge from entering the world were certainly uncivilized and violent
and morally inferior to people who did not want the Thirty Meter Telescope
destroyed and craved new knowledge.

And I note that this is yet another post that is all about me. Despite your
earlier claim to be more angry at the protestors than with me this much
longer post goes on and on about my moral and intellectual failings but
contains not one word of criticism for the thugs who destroyed the Thirty
Meter Telescope, in fact you say good things about them "They don?t seem
very violent to me" and "They are part of a civilization" and " they don?t
seem to be personally rude" and "I haven?t heard any crass jokes".

As for me, there is nothing good to say about me.

John K Clark
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 15:53:00 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 10:53:00 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv14+rq4EdGEuAV8sp5Sbh_1Ywnq=NQQOrhBm7yEb6CNZw@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYvLKUobB6Pgio83hJwuGvgNWDJfPPnhFGSo0Yj+fDuCQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Do you think that we don't care as much about it because we are not
> ranting too?
>

In a word yes. And as evidence I need look no further than you're very
post, it's all about me and says nothing about the protestors who illegally
destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope.

John K Clark

I do not have to prove anything to you about my attitude towards the
protesters.  I think all of us have done that.  Is the word 'enough' in
your vocabulary>

bill w

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:25 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> > John, I have not read any post from anyone that I would characterize as
>> angry with you.  Impatient, yes.  A bit frustrated, yes.  But not anger.
>> It's just fine with me that you rant about something, but you won't leave
>> it at that.  You go on and on, as if trying to get us to see the importance
>> of it, when we already do.
>>
>> Do you think that we don't care as much about it because we are not
>> ranting too?
>>
>
> In a word yes. And as evidence I need look no further than you're very
> post, it's all about me and says nothing about the protestors who illegally
> destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 17:42:27 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:42:27 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Wh6FO2C=9A08pEi_GoyJmJTNL5BjocyJgg6HUYegDvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <3BF56FAD-52FE-4F89-B714-BF960A385D81@gmail.com>

>destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope 

It?s not built. They can?t destroy it. Destroying implies destruction.

>this is yet another post that is all about me

Yes. Because I?ve already had all I have to say about the protestors. I don?t agree with them. What more is there to say?

You claim the moral high ground, but what are you doing to end the protests? Why are you not asking us to do the same?


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 31, 2019, at 9:56 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:07 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> >> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
>> 
>> 
>> > No. If you feel that way, then please prove it.
> 
> I need only to point at the very post I'm responding to right now.
> 
>> > They don?t seem very violent to me.
> 
> For the first time in over 50 years the entire observatory was shut down and shut down for an entire month, do you think they did that for no reason? The astronomers shut everything down because they were intimidated by violence and the threat of violence and because they knew the police would not protect them from barbarians despite what the law says.  
> 
>> > You accuse people who dislike the term barbarian to be dangerously flirting with newspeak. That?s not the case. ?a person from an alien land, culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent 
> 
> Then my usage of the word "barbarians" was entirely correct because the criminals who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope and prevented new knowledge from entering the world were certainly uncivilized and violent and morally inferior to people who did not want the Thirty Meter Telescope destroyed and craved new knowledge.
> 
> And I note thatthis is yet another post that is all about me. Despite your earlier claim to be more angry at the protestors than with me this much longer post goes on and on about my moral and intellectual failings but contains not one word of criticism for the thugs who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope, in fact you say good things about them "They don?t seem very violent to me" and "They are part of a civilization" and " they don?t seem to be personally rude" and "I haven?t heard any crass jokes".
> 
> As for me, there is nothing good to say about me.
> 
> John K Clark
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 19:06:03 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:06:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Wh6FO2C=9A08pEi_GoyJmJTNL5BjocyJgg6HUYegDvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYHZwgKmin5m2qmMBExSfiLE2FCQqRtet10xc7pw4XhVA@mail.gmail.com>

As for me, there is nothing good to say about me.

John K Clark

Be fair.  I have not seen you say anything good about me or anyone else on
the list.  Are you fishing for compliments?

bill w


On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:00 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:07 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> >> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
>>
>>
>> *> No. If you feel that way, then please prove it.*
>>
>
> I need only to point at the very post I'm responding to right now.
>
> *> They don?t seem very violent to me.*
>
>
> For the first time in over 50 years the entire observatory was shut down
> and shut down for an entire month, do you think they did that for no
> reason? The astronomers shut everything down because they were intimidated
> by violence and the threat of violence and because they knew the police
> would not protect them from barbarians despite what the law says.
>
> *> You accuse people who dislike the term barbarian to be dangerously
>> flirting with newspeak. That?s not the case. ?a person from an alien land,
>> culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent *
>>
>
> Then my usage of the word "barbarians" was entirely correct because the
> criminals who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope and prevented new
> knowledge from entering the world were certainly uncivilized and violent
> and morally inferior to people who did not want the Thirty Meter Telescope
> destroyed and craved new knowledge.
>
> And I note that this is yet another post that is all about me. Despite
> your earlier claim to be more angry at the protestors than with me this
> much longer post goes on and on about my moral and intellectual failings
> but contains not one word of criticism for the thugs who destroyed the
> Thirty Meter Telescope, in fact you say good things about them "They don?t
> seem very violent to me" and "They are part of a civilization" and " they
> don?t seem to be personally rude" and "I haven?t heard any crass jokes".
>
> As for me, there is nothing good to say about me.
>
> John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
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From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 19:31:35 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 14:31:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1Wh6FO2C=9A08pEi_GoyJmJTNL5BjocyJgg6HUYegDvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
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 <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com>
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 <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <29596BF0-B515-4B5B-AD96-33B25A26EEC1@gmail.com>

>  in fact you say good things about them "They don?t seem very violent to me" and "They are part of a civilization" and " they don?t seem to be personally rude" and "I haven?t heard any crass jokes".

I mean, you are part of a civilization, don?t seem very violent, and aren?t making crass jokes. 

So does that mean I?m complimenting you? I find these things to be neutral.

SR Ballard

> On Aug 31, 2019, at 9:56 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 9:07 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> >> Not if you count those who vent their anger against me.
>> 
>> 
>> > No. If you feel that way, then please prove it.
> 
> I need only to point at the very post I'm responding to right now.
> 
>> > They don?t seem very violent to me.
> 
> For the first time in over 50 years the entire observatory was shut down and shut down for an entire month, do you think they did that for no reason? The astronomers shut everything down because they were intimidated by violence and the threat of violence and because they knew the police would not protect them from barbarians despite what the law says.  
> 
>> > You accuse people who dislike the term barbarian to be dangerously flirting with newspeak. That?s not the case. ?a person from an alien land, culture, or group believed to be inferior, uncivilized, or violent 
> 
> Then my usage of the word "barbarians" was entirely correct because the criminals who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope and prevented new knowledge from entering the world were certainly uncivilized and violent and morally inferior to people who did not want the Thirty Meter Telescope destroyed and craved new knowledge.
> 
> And I note that this is yet another post that is all about me. Despite your earlier claim to be more angry at the protestors than with me this much longer post goes on and on about my moral and intellectual failings but contains not one word of criticism for the thugs who destroyed the Thirty Meter Telescope,
> 
> As for me, there is nothing good to say about me.
> 
> John K Clark
>  
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 19:38:32 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 15:38:32 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYHZwgKmin5m2qmMBExSfiLE2FCQqRtet10xc7pw4XhVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2AkowRvQ+8tmq9QVDBHKOtGe04UqG4TZFrGNtkWg2T+w@mail.gmail.com>
 <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv24PXcqo-wUyOY3ivxB1YD-ra-mmWN3C8BT7NiwXPo97w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAJPayv1OdOVX_phxuNb084Xx1vYOiXpYrMdswEEF_9a+TJKNNw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 3:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>  Are you fishing for compliments?


Fewer insults would be nice.

John K Clark
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From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sat Aug 31 20:08:28 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 16:08:28 -0400
Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYvLKUobB6Pgio83hJwuGvgNWDJfPPnhFGSo0Yj+fDuCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL_armigUjgU1s8NFcPmu5C84uf-Wpkt5xQMjLEA2A-CBrf=QQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1j+=GnQAN8=ofq71W-Z-t0Mq7r1nQTvvZuo4jXAPOPcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ+XHSthKEU3=cq3PGg-uXpR=H9-gvfy2SXTxT3OwkAvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv2F7HpWnii9h6zt1t5F0yiWo6BN=M7Nka-A7zqTadJKfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A191C610-5A28-4617-9C8C-37BD02E48434@gmail.com>
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 <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com>
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 <F16A8C93-50C0-4C04-B82A-B7720782E621@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 11:57 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:


> *> I do not have to prove anything to you about my attitude towards the
> protesters.  I think all of us have done that.*


But apparently there is always more to say about me.

 > *Is the word 'enough' in your vocabulary*
>

Is it in your's? I'm not the only one keeping this thread going and I'm not
the one who started it, BillK  did. Go back to the first post and read the
article it recommends and you tell me if it is well written and contains
useful factual information. And then tell me if you can tell if the author or
the article was on the side of the enlightenment or on the side of the
barbarians. And then explain to me why somebody who was on the side of the
enlightenment would forward such an article to the list.

John K Clark
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