[ExI] Time travel in simulations (Adrian Tymes)

[Keith Henson]

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:46 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> That requires that the traveling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> simulation, or at least be aware of the checkpoints.

I presume the individuals in a constructed simulation would know where
they were.  Especially if they uploaded from the base (meat) reality.
(And assuming we are the base reality.)

> Those for whom loading the checkpoints includes erasing all knowledge and
> memory gained since the checkpoint, essentially cease to have existed
> between when the checkpoint is saved and when it is loaded.  For them,
> there is no travel: there is the one whose experiences are erased entirely
> (without themselves having gone back to the checkpoint), and the one who
> continues from the checkpoint (and has no way to know there was another of
> themselves).

I mentioned "new hardware" so it is not required to erase local
history forward of a checkpoint.  In fact, parallel threads can
continue to run.

> > Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.

Thinking about this, not certain.  Is the simulation computer deterministic?

Keith

> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 4:56 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There are good reasons to expect humans will never develop time travel
> > in the base universe in which we live.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niven%27s_laws#Niven's_Law_(re_Time_travel)
> >
> > However, there is a way to get *subjective* time travel with an
> > uploaded civilization running in a simulated reality.  And no
> > causality violations.
> >
> > All it requires is to checkpoint the hardware running the simulated
> > reality from time to time.  ?Time travel? for an individual in such a
> > context would amount to reloading a previous checkpoint (perhaps on
> > new hardware) and entering the simulation.  From a subjective
> > viewpoint, this would be equivalent to time travel.
> >
> > Limits, you can?t go back before the first checkpoint.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
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> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 07:10:24 +0200
> From: Giulio Prisco <giulio at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID:
>         <CAKTCJyeEPra1313k3HFx1sBTWxhje84SO9wC3Qj3O+ZJva_wUQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!
>
> So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is
> back, and the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that
> someone had made the decision to shut everything down.
>
> In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
> Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
> always good.
>
> Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back ExI!
> >
> >
> >
> > Same general rules as before:
> >
> >
> >
> > Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back!
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 04:14:03 -0400
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJPayv0S2Ys9aW_UnoMpvqXsVnChPwc_ja2ovAeq3eH0n1KZYw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:09 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> *> That requires that the travelling individual(s) be aware they are in a
> > simulation, *
> >
>
>  Preston Greene makes the point that if you want to test the efficiency of
> a new drug it is important that the subjects not know if they are receiving
> the drug or a placebo, in the same way...
>
> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for research
> purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to the
> researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we were
> to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our creators to
> terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
>
> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
>
> John K Clark
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 06:02:50 -0700
> From: <spike at rainier66.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: <spike at rainier66.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID: <001a01d55757$928b1f60$b7a15e20$@rainier66.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
> No it was a misunderstanding on the way the domain had been paid up when the
> people who can do something about it were away on vacation.
>
> No worries, I took care of it to make sure it doesn't happen again.
>
> FB: no objection, but I have found email has its advantages.
>
> spike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Giulio Prisco
> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:10 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
>
> Welcome back ExI list! We missed you!
>
> So it was a server thing after all? I see that also the website is back, and
> the list archives from 2003 on. I and others thought that someone had made
> the decision to shut everything down.
>
> In the meantime some good folks have created an Extropians group on
> Facebook. Those of you on FB, please join, having a backup solution is
> always good.
>
> Looking forward to many spirited discussions here!
>
> G.
>
> On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:56 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back ExI!
> >
> >
> >
> > Same general rules as before:
> >
> >
> >
> > Be kind to each other.  We are among friends and allies here.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know.
> >
> >
> >
> > Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*.
> >
> >
> >
> > Welcome back!
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> > *   For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand
> knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much
> anything else.  Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone
> outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was:
> >
> >
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:56:09 -0700
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CALAdGNQpf=D8uLxjGhbiY3b8nDXTRcT1upNgpwZHmyCoc0py2w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
> > research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
> > the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
> > were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
> > creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
> >
> > Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> > <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >
>
> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
> the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
> prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
> perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:05:07 -0400
> From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJPayv3-_ZyQGF37ckx+zQF1bsZr1BVfq4QWWfJstQVv4Sge6Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 12:00 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> >> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >>
> >
> > *> Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim
> > where the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough
> > to prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done
> > - perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> > clever folk could not figure out how to use properly. *
> >
>
> That is a good point.
>
> John K Clark
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:08:30 -0500
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID:
>         <CAO+xQEaZ69Qh49CVQ6D9K3ZRgMvrVqVPvp+Ni3L78e=YGJG2rg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> You guys are just too clever.  What I want to know:  how will we know?
> Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black
> holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up
> with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just
> having fun?  bill w
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 10:59 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 1:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> *"if our universe has been created by an advanced civilization for
> >> research purposes, then it is reasonable to assume that it is crucial to
> >> the researchers that we don?t find out that we?re in a simulation. If we
> >> were to prove that we live inside a simulation, this could cause our
> >> creators to terminate the simulation ? to destroy our world."*
> >>
> >> Are We Living in a Computer Simulation? Let?s Not Find Out
> >> <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/opinion/sunday/are-we-living-in-a-computer-simulation-lets-not-find-out.html>
> >>
> >
> > Pascal's Wager much?  We could just as easily be in an incubator sim where
> > the creators are waiting for us to collectively become clever enough to
> > prove that we are in a sim, with rewards of some kind once that is done -
> > perhaps a next-level sim where we are granted abilities that much less
> > clever folk could not figure out how to use properly.
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:12:58 -0500
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] gmail
> Message-ID:
>         <CAO+xQEY2nah3BUfwPGNtkFbXRudjOCof2t9Ac=fOtqR0Qd3f0Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Those using Gmail and have had their Inbox changed:  if you don't like it,
> go to Settings, Inbox, scroll down and uncheck  all the Inbox categories,
> scroll down and Save Changes.
>
> bill w
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:37:31 -0700
> From: <spike at rainier66.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Cc: <spike at rainier66.com>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
> Message-ID: <012101d55775$900e15d0$b02a4170$@rainier66.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>
>
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Time travel in simulations
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >?You guys are just too clever?
>
>
>
> On the contrary, I am ready to argue that as a species we are not quite clever enough.  Very close, but just not quite.  Or not yet.
>
>
>
> >?What I want to know:  how will we know?  Where would we look for evidence?  If the answers include bosons or black holes, just forget it.  Also- lacking any evidence, someone has come up with odds.  Just how can one calculate odds without data?  Or are they just having fun?  bill w
>
>
>
> There are tantalizing clues.  That whole quantum theory business, that bit about a particle disappears here and reappears there at the quantum level, that to me has to be evidence (or if not evidence, then indication) that at the quantum level, we are looking at some kind of digital simulation.
>
>
>
> If the universe is a sim at the quantum level, then perhaps it is likewise way up to the atomic scale, perhaps that too is a sim dependent on values calculated at the smaller scale, and so on up to the cellular level, to our scale, to the entire visible universe, to everything, all a big sim.  Then you and I are avatars.  Or rather, you are.  I am the only one here.  Or we are the avatars, and you are the only one.
>
>
>
> Check this:
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfj6f0NldlI
>
>
>
> Damn that?s a lonely line of reasoning.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 09:43:11 -0700
> From: Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> To: ExI Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack!
> Message-ID:
>         <20190820094311.Horde.2nHDvO3XHFxwAXtOUWMdezw at secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed; DelSp=Yes
>
> Woohoo! I missed the list and all you folks so I am glad it is back up
> and running. Thanks to Max, John Klos, Spike, and everybody else that
> made it happen. :-)
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 10:26:00 -0700
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] AAAS directly promoting human augmentation
> Message-ID:
>         <CALAdGNQkM+8ciO2SGBXaOyMG35bRYXRJbdPTqysTuy3sdr=fyg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> https://www.aaas.org/page/2019-2020-leshner-leadership-institute-public-engagement-fellows-human-augmentation
>
>
> https://www.aaas.org/news/scientists-use-public-engagement-share-human-augmentation
>
> It's somewhat low-level for augmentation, but that something this
> mainstream is promoting the concept by name is quite a step forward.
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:34:15 -0400
> From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
> To: Extropy chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Physicist advances a radical theory of gravity
> Message-ID:
>         <CAM5aL2deYSN8uS0gL6jNjTDZie_=qD+dZeND3CaqnfO8b7P=sQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> This may be old hat, but it's new to me.
>
> https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/physicist-radical-theory-of-gravity
>
> The Dutch physicist Erik Verlinde's hypothesis describes gravity as an
> "emergent" force not fundamental.
> The scientist thinks his ideas describe the universe better than existing
> models, without resorting to "dark matter".
> While some question his previous papers, Verlinde is reworking his ideas as
> a full-fledged theory.
>
> The Dutch theoretical physicist Erik Verlinde is no stranger to big ideas.
> His 2009 hypothesis about gravity earned him comparisons to Einstein for
> its complete rethinking of what gravity could be. Verlinde proposed that
> gravity was not a fundamental force of nature but rather emerged out of the
> interactions of information that fills the universe. He also didn't think
> there was such a thing as "dark matter" ? a useful construct which is
> supposedly taking up 27% of the known universe (but is yet to be observed).
> Now, in a new interview, Verlinde reveals he is taking steps towards
> conceptualizing his groundbreaking ideas in a full-fledged theory.
>
> As reported by the Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research (NWO),
> Verlinde understands why many had trouble accepting his original proposal.
> After all, the previous leading explanations of gravity have been by
> Newton, who saw it as an invisible pulling force, and Einstein, who
> conceived of it as a curvature of space-time by mass and energy.
>
> In Verlinde's view, based on string theory, quantum information theory and
> the physics of black holes, gravity is an "entropic" force that comes into
> existence as a result of "information associated with the positions of
> material bodies," as he wrote in his 2011 paper. What drives gravity is the
> quantum entanglement of tiny bits of spacetime information.
>
> Ten years after publishing his ideas in a paper that caused much
> discussion, both from admirers and critics, Verlinde shares that he is
> still fleshing them out, based on the research and advancements that have
> taken place since then.
>
> "Over the past ten years, we have gradually learned a lot more about how
> you should talk about space and time information," said Verlinde to NWO. "I
> am seriously considering rewriting my story from 2009, but now formulated
> much more precisely. I think that could remove some of the scepticism that
> still exists.'??
>
> ...
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