From brent.allsop at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 00:20:14 2019
From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:20:14 -0700
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <A8BCFB83-0EAA-47CA-8884-10422D942BBD@gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2RaAjKmGbpmTw1JZZvDCT3J3J=AqPDn58XebB-8ydEKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8BCFB83-0EAA-47CA-8884-10422D942BBD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>

I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
Much better than a christmas card.


On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
> around the same time next year.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dan
>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>
> http://author.to/DanUst
>
> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ==============
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>
> ================
>
> Happy New Year all.
>
> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction,
> after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no
> training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the
> good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this
> very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I
> predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about
> it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an
> eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
> a dream.
>
> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from
> today.
>
>     John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/0e6af282/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 00:49:52 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:49:52 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
In-Reply-To: <008301d48ff4$45d360e0$d17a22a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <7686c985d4d75b4d2de49101040624cf.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAO+xQEbX76Eg25YS5GGJK47_owN_D4HdprBYSn0NxVGDUxaRYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3Jgjh+5DzFZGLqn4GfM9aT9T7HbRmXH-uxJycDDYAGHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbbiJ_rgs37aaHXHTb8OJ1w9Eofc+nyTQ3medpQr4AgVQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1iSkauD7t8scSDsjDA0hxMKhWRi0QXPFx017vqLa9amw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEbVgoXVNTuJ=ZhRCOU7h=Hiwd4pruGjag9rQYLnUjiohw@mail.gmail.com>
 <004801d48fe8$c69168f0$53b43ad0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ-7ORGGi-WPdRtsFZ2BGZkKqb5tk6QuB4sk6GmVW3Svw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008301d48ff4$45d360e0$d17a22a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEac6sQ=JvGV5=u7jF61N8RmGZsfN+J8pN21PowbhUi4ng@mail.gmail.com>

(sorry this took so long for a reply)  Spike wrote:

If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not doing that
unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around that
material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the administration can
freely offer online material about Christianity, Protestantism or
Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)

Are those materials that the school system developed, or just links to
Wikipedia or something?  It raises a big question for me:  I would oppose
letting any gov. absolutely rule education.  But I also have trouble with
letting parents opt their kids out.  To a certain point every kid should
get the same education (except for topics on which they excel and can go
further).  Sure, the kids can go home and Google Hinduism, but will they?
And in a very real sense, all of the religions are huge parts of history,
and history must be taught without anyone being excused.  Otherwise you
have even worse bias than the school is presenting because of opt-outs
being left in ignorance.

Who gets to choose the education material?  In Texas it is very, very
strictly controlled and very conservative in matters of sex and history.
Their legislatorosauruses tried to ban a vaccine for cervical cancer.  I do
not know if they succeeded, but we are talking about very primitive people
here.  Men who want to be in charge of women's health and bodies.

Another problem:  kids need teachers who are there in the same room. I hope
this will never change. Hard to question things online, I assume.  Spike
can tell us just how the online content is pitched.  Is it to the average
student?  I assume that is true.  Therefore the slower student will need
somebody to answer questions.  The very best students may not need
questions answered, but I was one and I was full of questions.

For Spike - the two hospitals in Jackson are Baptist and Catholic, and yes,
they do ask about your religion if you are a patient.  Of course you are
not forced to answer.  I just check for no visits by religious personnel.
Different situation than a business etc.

billw

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 1:25 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:55 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
>
>
>
> >>? If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not doing
> that unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around that
> material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the administration can
> freely offer online material about Christianity, Protestantism or
> Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)
>
>
>
> >? I find this very sad and very disturbing?
>
>
>
> Indeed?  I find it happy and comforting, particularly after reviewing the
> material myself.  It doesn?t promote or denigrate any particular religion
> (it isn?t obvious to me if they do) but explains a lotta lotta about why
> and how come.
>
>
>
> >? It was bad enough when nothing was taught and now it may be even worse?
>
>
>
> Disagree.  It was bad enough, but now is much better.  I recall when
> biology was being taught in the public school without mentioning evolution,
> how little sense it all makes without that cornerstone concept.  Without
> some knowledge of religion, history in general makes damn little sense.
>
>
>
> For instance, we in the USA recently celebrated a festival of
> Thanksgiving, where we talk about pilgrims, European people seeking
> religious freedom.  OK.  Why did both Catholic and Protestant authorities
> have heartburn with them?  Seems like one or the other would have been OK
> with them.  Reason: civil authorities were hoping to use religion as a
> unifying force in their cultures.  Perhaps they hoped (in the ideal case)
> that everyone in their country would subscribe to the religion of the
> crown.
>
>
>
> OK, that makes sense.  Now, separatists, where do they fit?  No allegiance
> to the Pope or the state religion.  Now the crown can?t be sure of their
> loyalty.  They can?t be sure if they can trust the separatists to charge
> the enemy.  They don?t know whether to fight them or trust them.  So? they
> don?t want them.  No one wants them.
>
>
>
> The separatists want to follow their own way.  They got on board a ship
> and sailed to undeveloped territory where they damn well knew their chances
> of survival were a tossup.  They went anyway.
>
>
>
> That?s powerful motivation.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?Letting parents select what their children are taught is a road to
> ignorance and that leads to bigotry and that leads to street fights all the
> way up to war?
>
>
>
> There is that, but it might be a road away from ignorance and away from
> bigotry, and solves street fights and war.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?As for forms, I have no idea what is current, but most of the forms I
> see, census, hospital, have places for religions?
>
>
>
> Hmmm, OK.  I haven?t seen that in decades.
>
>
>
> >?  I would guess that no businesses do this anymore?
>
>
>
> Not if they don?t want to get the pants sued offa them.
>
>
>
> >?  Who else?  No idea?bill w
>
>
>
> I have lived in California so long, I have forgotten how the rest of the
> world operates.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/692e4c0d/attachment.html>

From col.hales at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 00:50:10 2019
From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:50:10 +1100
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2RaAjKmGbpmTw1JZZvDCT3J3J=AqPDn58XebB-8ydEKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8BCFB83-0EAA-47CA-8884-10422D942BBD@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGHyZJk0=tv7eMNb5yrSbfBK=utaHT9TJLpi=9S2bi2ogoU0Ww@mail.gmail.com>

Good job! Is it just me or is there a pattern emerging? ??
Happy 2019!
Cheers
Colin

On Tue., 1 Jan. 2019, 11:23 am Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com wrote:

> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
> Much better than a christmas card.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>> around the same time next year.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> Happy New Year all.
>>
>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
>> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction,
>> after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no
>> training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the
>> good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this
>> very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I
>> predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about
>> it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an
>> eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
>> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
>> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
>> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
>> a dream.
>>
>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>> from today.
>>
>>     John K Clark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190101/828cf398/attachment-0001.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 00:56:43 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:56:43 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2RaAjKmGbpmTw1JZZvDCT3J3J=AqPDn58XebB-8ydEKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8BCFB83-0EAA-47CA-8884-10422D942BBD@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY7uwvdZbJZJ4vk2rJP3HwDxRG6-GPbHNuM0p12nDLHvA@mail.gmail.com>

You have ripped apart the idea that the only constant is constant change.

bill w

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 6:24 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
> Much better than a christmas card.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>> around the same time next year.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>> Happy New Year all.
>>
>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
>> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction,
>> after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no
>> training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the
>> good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this
>> very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I
>> predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about
>> it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an
>> eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
>> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
>> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
>> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
>> a dream.
>>
>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>> from today.
>>
>>     John K Clark
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/b575579f/attachment.html>

From ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 02:05:46 2019
From: ilsa.bartlett at gmail.com (ilsa)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:05:46 -0800
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEY7uwvdZbJZJ4vk2rJP3HwDxRG6-GPbHNuM0p12nDLHvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJPayv2RaAjKmGbpmTw1JZZvDCT3J3J=AqPDn58XebB-8ydEKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <A8BCFB83-0EAA-47CA-8884-10422D942BBD@gmail.com>
 <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEY7uwvdZbJZJ4vk2rJP3HwDxRG6-GPbHNuM0p12nDLHvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN3PQpE7QzaTPsgEPxp3xHXZZrZK0o55fSBaF7iwbGP9NekQgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Spinning Planet, Spinning Chair: I love this and look forward to your
Prediction
Same Spinning this year as next.. I just Love ALL of the people on this
list, HUGS for you. each and every one. You all have brought me such great
thought spinning ideas. I must look forward to assembling my articles into
That Book, then I can feel safe. We each have such great stories to share
and dialogue.
So for now,  Be Happy, Smile

  Pink Lurker always looking up/down Infinity

Ilsa Bartlett
Institute for Rewiring the System
http://ilsabartlett.wordpress.com
http://www.google.com/profiles/ilsa.bartlett
www.hotlux.com/angel <http://www.hotlux.com/angel.htm>

"Don't ever get so big or important that you can not hear and listen to
every other person."
-John Coltrane


On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 5:18 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> You have ripped apart the idea that the only constant is constant change.
>
> bill w
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 6:24 PM Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
>> Much better than a christmas card.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>>> around the same time next year.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>
>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>
>>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ==============
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ==============
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one
>>> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>> Happy New Year all.
>>>
>>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in
>>> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction,
>>> after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no
>>> training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the
>>> good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this
>>> very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I
>>> predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about
>>> it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an
>>> eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
>>> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
>>> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
>>> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
>>> a dream.
>>>
>>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>>> from today.
>>>
>>>     John K Clark
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/093fc45f/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jan  1 04:18:30 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 20:18:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1546303836.27661.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.1.1546303836.27661.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <33129663016502615cb6328469621983.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Happy New Year, everyone!

I hope your next lap around the sun is better than your last.

Stuart LaForge


John Clark wrote:
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> Happy New Year all.
>>
>>
>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of
>> people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have.
>> And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
>> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
>> world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
>> interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy,
>> like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth
>> Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but
>> the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot.
>> Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly
>> spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.
>>
>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>> from today.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/647
> e882e/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:01:13 +0000
> From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID:
> <CAL_armjoyiY0ZxYB9O6XJjDN1-y9NRgwefxDqz4TPy5ae-5ANA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>
> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>
>>
>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is
>> no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see,
>> just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>
>
> All the reputable medical sources say it is harmful!
> Don't do it - you'll make your situation worse.
> Get correct advice on what to do!
> Your response shows why those hoax emails are so attractive to people
> who don't know what they should do.
>
> Do a search on Cough CPR hoax.
> <https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical/
> ask-the-experts/cough-cpr> Quote:
> A heart attack can lead to a cardiac arrest, when your heart stops
> pumping blood around your body. You would become unconscious, and without
> immediate CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths), you would die.
>
> If you are still conscious (and you would have to be to do ?cough
> CPR?), then you are not in cardiac arrest and therefore CPR is not
> needed, but urgent medical help is vital. -------
>
>
> BillK
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 10:09:31 -0800
> From: "Stuart LaForge" <avant at sollegro.com>
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID:
> <d7da7f3742c55321f4547a3f3ce30ac0.squirrel at secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>
>
> Bill Wallace wrote:
>
>
>> cough CPR should only be performed under strict professional
>> supervision.
>>
>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is
>> no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see,
>> just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>
> The first thing you should do when you feel the symptoms of a heart
> attack is CHEW AND SWALLOW a full strength 325 mg aspirin tablet. Since
> most heart attacks happen in the morning, it might make sense to keep the
> bottle near your bed.
>
> Lots of good sources on this so take your pick. Here is Harvard:
>
>
> https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/aspirin-for-heart-attack-chew
> -or-swallow
>
>
> Stuart LaForge
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:16:25 -0600
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID:
> <CAO+xQEYyRZyHJLGOy1Mnezw+8uv0PJWz2Agb1P9FYZ8sdGLx0w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Yes, and I have read that more than one is not needed.  bill w
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:15 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Bill Wallace wrote:
>>
>>
>>> cough CPR should only be performed under strict professional
>>> supervision.
>>>
>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There
>>> is no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's
>>> see, just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>
>> The first thing you should do when you feel the symptoms of a heart
>> attack is CHEW AND SWALLOW a full strength 325 mg aspirin tablet. Since
>> most heart attacks happen in the morning, it might make sense to keep
>> the bottle near your bed.
>>
>> Lots of good sources on this so take your pick. Here is Harvard:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/aspirin-for-heart-attack-ch
>> ew-or-swallow
>>
>> Stuart LaForge
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/dd7
> 44936/attachment-0001.html>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:26:01 -0600
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID:
> <CAO+xQEb5TvuySyw9SZK01VjZe_EbYF66GeK5z=qERt0H2p+fRg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Hey - you are right in that I should have researched it.  Sorry.  But I
> never said that I would do nothing else.  Phone first.  Maybe it's a good
> idea to have one of those gadgets that make calls for you like Alexa.
> Oops
> - not Alexa, says the reviewers. (don't have an iPhone - have Samsung)
>
>
> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?  That
> is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people on my
> contact list.
>
> bill w
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:05 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>> having
>> a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I would do
>> it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I would pray to
>> every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is no
>> superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see, just
>> where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>
>>>
>>
>> All the reputable medical sources say it is harmful!
>> Don't do it - you'll make your situation worse.
>> Get correct advice on what to do!
>> Your response shows why those hoax emails are so attractive to people
>> who don't know what they should do.
>>
>> Do a search on Cough CPR hoax.
>> <
>> https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical
>> /ask-the-experts/cough-cpr
>>
>>>
>> Quote:
>> A heart attack can lead to a cardiac arrest, when your heart stops
>> pumping blood around your body. You would become unconscious, and without
>> immediate CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths), you would die.
>>
>> If you are still conscious (and you would have to be to do ?cough
>> CPR?), then you are not in cardiac arrest and therefore CPR is not
>> needed, but urgent medical help is vital. -------
>>
>>
>> BillK
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/4ec
> b97b9/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:42:36 -0500
> From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID:
> <CAM5aL2fnZBMnYZ9aBzz4L-HF5Frbeorvji3C_2N+kumRfwvBsw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?
>> That
>> is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people on my
>> contact list.
>>
>
> "Hey Google, call 9-1-1.
>
>
> -Dave
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/205
> eaf52/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:12:58 -0600
> From: SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
> Message-ID: <7340B7FF-8932-4A3C-93F8-7E581543B7E4 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> ?All Senior Citizens Should Have Life Alert?
> Jokes aside, my grandma used one of these when she had her heart
> attack(s).
>
> SR Ballard
>
>
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace
>>> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?
>>> That is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people
>>> on my contact list.
>>
>> "Hey Google, call 9-1-1.
>>
>>
>> -Dave
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/634
> c51f4/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:20:14 -0700
> From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
> Message-ID:
> <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
> Much better than a christmas card.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>> around the same time next year.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> Dan
>> Sample my Kindle books at:
>>
>>
>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>
>>
>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>> again.
>>
>> ================
>>
>>
>> Happy New Year all.
>>
>>
>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people
>> with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I
>> am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
>> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
>> world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
>> interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like
>> saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can
>> regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly
>> trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am
>> confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad
>> Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
>> a dream.
>>
>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>> from today.
>>
>> John K Clark
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/0e6
> af282/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:49:52 -0600
> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
> Message-ID:
> <CAO+xQEac6sQ=JvGV5=u7jF61N8RmGZsfN+J8pN21PowbhUi4ng at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> (sorry this took so long for a reply)  Spike wrote:
>
>
> If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not doing that
> unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around that
> material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the administration
> can freely offer online material about Christianity, Protestantism or
> Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)
>
>
> Are those materials that the school system developed, or just links to
> Wikipedia or something?  It raises a big question for me:  I would oppose
> letting any gov. absolutely rule education.  But I also have trouble with
> letting parents opt their kids out.  To a certain point every kid should
> get the same education (except for topics on which they excel and can go
> further).  Sure, the kids can go home and Google Hinduism, but will they?
>  And in a very real sense, all of the religions are huge parts of
> history, and history must be taught without anyone being excused.
> Otherwise you
> have even worse bias than the school is presenting because of opt-outs
> being left in ignorance.
>
> Who gets to choose the education material?  In Texas it is very, very
> strictly controlled and very conservative in matters of sex and history.
> Their legislatorosauruses tried to ban a vaccine for cervical cancer.  I
> do not know if they succeeded, but we are talking about very primitive
> people here.  Men who want to be in charge of women's health and bodies.
>
> Another problem:  kids need teachers who are there in the same room. I
> hope this will never change. Hard to question things online, I assume.
> Spike
> can tell us just how the online content is pitched.  Is it to the average
> student?  I assume that is true.  Therefore the slower student will need
> somebody to answer questions.  The very best students may not need
> questions answered, but I was one and I was full of questions.
>
> For Spike - the two hospitals in Jackson are Baptist and Catholic, and
> yes, they do ask about your religion if you are a patient.  Of course you
> are not forced to answer.  I just check for no visits by religious
> personnel. Different situation than a business etc.
>
>
> billw
>
> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 1:25 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>> Behalf
>> Of *William Flynn Wallace
>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:55 AM
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> ? If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not
>>>> doing
>> that unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around
>> that material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the
>> administration can freely offer online material about Christianity,
>> Protestantism or
>> Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ? I find this very sad and very disturbing?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Indeed?  I find it happy and comforting, particularly after reviewing
>> the material myself.  It doesn?t promote or denigrate any particular
>> religion (it isn?t obvious to me if they do) but explains a lotta lotta
>> about why and how come.
>>
>>
>>
>>> ? It was bad enough when nothing was taught and now it may be even
>>> worse?
>>
>>
>>
>> Disagree.  It was bad enough, but now is much better.  I recall when
>> biology was being taught in the public school without mentioning
>> evolution, how little sense it all makes without that cornerstone
>> concept.  Without some knowledge of religion, history in general makes
>> damn little sense.
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance, we in the USA recently celebrated a festival of
>> Thanksgiving, where we talk about pilgrims, European people seeking
>> religious freedom.  OK.  Why did both Catholic and Protestant
>> authorities have heartburn with them?  Seems like one or the other would
>> have been OK with them.  Reason: civil authorities were hoping to use
>> religion as a unifying force in their cultures.  Perhaps they hoped (in
>> the ideal case) that everyone in their country would subscribe to the
>> religion of the crown.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK, that makes sense.  Now, separatists, where do they fit?  No
>> allegiance to the Pope or the state religion.  Now the crown can?t be
>> sure of their loyalty.  They can?t be sure if they can trust the
>> separatists to charge the enemy.  They don?t know whether to fight them
>> or trust them.  So? they don?t want them.  No one wants them.
>>
>>
>>
>> The separatists want to follow their own way.  They got on board a ship
>>  and sailed to undeveloped territory where they damn well knew their
>> chances of survival were a tossup.  They went anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> That?s powerful motivation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ?Letting parents select what their children are taught is a road to
>>>
>> ignorance and that leads to bigotry and that leads to street fights all
>> the way up to war?
>>
>>
>>
>> There is that, but it might be a road away from ignorance and away from
>>  bigotry, and solves street fights and war.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ?As for forms, I have no idea what is current, but most of the forms
>>> I
>>>
>> see, census, hospital, have places for religions?
>>
>>
>>
>> Hmmm, OK.  I haven?t seen that in decades.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ?  I would guess that no businesses do this anymore?
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Not if they don?t want to get the pants sued offa them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> ?  Who else?  No idea?bill w
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have lived in California so long, I have forgotten how the rest of
>> the world operates.
>>
>>
>>
>> spike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/692
> e4c0d/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:50:10 +1100
> From: Colin Hales <col.hales at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
> Message-ID:
> <CAGHyZJk0=tv7eMNb5yrSbfBK=utaHT9TJLpi=9S2bi2ogoU0Ww at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> Good job! Is it just me or is there a pattern emerging? ??
> Happy 2019!
> Cheers
> Colin
>
>
> On Tue., 1 Jan. 2019, 11:23 am Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
>> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
>> Much better than a christmas card.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>>> around the same time next year.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ==============
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ==============
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>>
>>> ================
>>>
>>>
>>> Happy New Year all.
>>>
>>>
>>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of
>>> people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they
>>> have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want
>>> to say something about this very important and obvious part of our
>>> natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find
>>> anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is
>>> crazy, like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth
>>> Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
>>> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
>>> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
>>>  because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about
>>> it in a dream.
>>>
>>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>>>  from today.
>>>
>>> John K Clark
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190101/828
> cf398/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 184, Issue 1
> ********************************************
>
>



From sen.otaku at gmail.com  Tue Jan  1 10:24:30 2019
From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 04:24:30 -0600
Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
In-Reply-To: <33129663016502615cb6328469621983.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <mailman.1.1546303836.27661.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
 <33129663016502615cb6328469621983.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <F2809197-9663-48CD-BBAB-A20997F25C32@gmail.com>

Hail! Friends, Romans, Countrymen: I bid you a joyous celebration of this, our great Gregorian renewal. 

Or in other words: Hey guys, Happy New Year!

SR Ballard

> On Dec 31, 2018, at 10:18 PM, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> 
> Happy New Year, everyone!
> 
> I hope your next lap around the sun is better than your last.
> 
> Stuart LaForge
> 
> 
> John Clark wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ==============
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ==============
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Happy New Year all.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of
>>> people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have.
>>> And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
>>> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
>>> world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
>>> interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy,
>>> like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth
>>> Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but
>>> the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot.
>>> Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly
>>> spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream.
>>> 
>>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>>> from today.
>>> 
>>> John K Clark
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/647
>> e882e/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:01:13 +0000
>> From: BillK <pharos at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAL_armjoyiY0ZxYB9O6XJjDN1-y9NRgwefxDqz4TPy5ae-5ANA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is
>>> no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see,
>>> just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>> 
>> 
>> All the reputable medical sources say it is harmful!
>> Don't do it - you'll make your situation worse.
>> Get correct advice on what to do!
>> Your response shows why those hoax emails are so attractive to people
>> who don't know what they should do.
>> 
>> Do a search on Cough CPR hoax.
>> <https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical/
>> ask-the-experts/cough-cpr> Quote:
>> A heart attack can lead to a cardiac arrest, when your heart stops
>> pumping blood around your body. You would become unconscious, and without
>> immediate CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths), you would die.
>> 
>> If you are still conscious (and you would have to be to do ?cough
>> CPR?), then you are not in cardiac arrest and therefore CPR is not
>> needed, but urgent medical help is vital. -------
>> 
>> 
>> BillK
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 10:09:31 -0800
>> From: "Stuart LaForge" <avant at sollegro.com>
>> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID:
>> <d7da7f3742c55321f4547a3f3ce30ac0.squirrel at secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
>> 
>> 
>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8
>> 
>> 
>> Bill Wallace wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> cough CPR should only be performed under strict professional
>>> supervision.
>>> 
>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is
>>> no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see,
>>> just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>> 
>> The first thing you should do when you feel the symptoms of a heart
>> attack is CHEW AND SWALLOW a full strength 325 mg aspirin tablet. Since
>> most heart attacks happen in the morning, it might make sense to keep the
>> bottle near your bed.
>> 
>> Lots of good sources on this so take your pick. Here is Harvard:
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/aspirin-for-heart-attack-chew
>> -or-swallow
>> 
>> 
>> Stuart LaForge
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:16:25 -0600
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAO+xQEYyRZyHJLGOy1Mnezw+8uv0PJWz2Agb1P9FYZ8sdGLx0w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> Yes, and I have read that more than one is not needed.  bill w
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:15 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Bill Wallace wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> cough CPR should only be performed under strict professional
>>>> supervision.
>>>> 
>>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>>> having a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I
>>>> would do it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I
>>>> would pray to every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There
>>>> is no superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's
>>>> see, just where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>> 
>>> The first thing you should do when you feel the symptoms of a heart
>>> attack is CHEW AND SWALLOW a full strength 325 mg aspirin tablet. Since
>>> most heart attacks happen in the morning, it might make sense to keep
>>> the bottle near your bed.
>>> 
>>> Lots of good sources on this so take your pick. Here is Harvard:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/aspirin-for-heart-attack-ch
>>> ew-or-swallow
>>> 
>>> Stuart LaForge
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/dd7
>> 44936/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 12:26:01 -0600
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAO+xQEb5TvuySyw9SZK01VjZe_EbYF66GeK5z=qERt0H2p+fRg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> Hey - you are right in that I should have researched it.  Sorry.  But I
>> never said that I would do nothing else.  Phone first.  Maybe it's a good
>> idea to have one of those gadgets that make calls for you like Alexa.
>> Oops
>> - not Alexa, says the reviewers. (don't have an iPhone - have Samsung)
>> 
>> 
>> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?  That
>> is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people on my
>> contact list.
>> 
>> bill w
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:05 PM BillK <pharos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2018 at 17:25, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hard to have that when you are alone.  Frankly if I thought I was
>>>> having
>>> a heart attack, had called, stopped in the road, whatever, I would do
>>> it just in case.  Nobody said it was harmful, did they?  I would pray to
>>> every god who ever was named, including Chango.  There is no
>>> superstition that I would not try.  Including voodoo.  Let's see, just
>>> where did I put my Voodoo Bible?
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> All the reputable medical sources say it is harmful!
>>> Don't do it - you'll make your situation worse.
>>> Get correct advice on what to do!
>>> Your response shows why those hoax emails are so attractive to people
>>> who don't know what they should do.
>>> 
>>> Do a search on Cough CPR hoax.
>>> <
>>> https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/medical
>>> /ask-the-experts/cough-cpr
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Quote:
>>> A heart attack can lead to a cardiac arrest, when your heart stops
>>> pumping blood around your body. You would become unconscious, and without
>>> immediate CPR (chest compressions and rescue breaths), you would die.
>>> 
>>> If you are still conscious (and you would have to be to do ?cough
>>> CPR?), then you are not in cardiac arrest and therefore CPR is not
>>> needed, but urgent medical help is vital. -------
>>> 
>>> 
>>> BillK
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/4ec
>> b97b9/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:42:36 -0500
>> From: Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAM5aL2fnZBMnYZ9aBzz4L-HF5Frbeorvji3C_2N+kumRfwvBsw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace
>> <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?
>>> That
>>> is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people on my
>>> contact list.
>>> 
>> 
>> "Hey Google, call 9-1-1.
>> 
>> 
>> -Dave
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/205
>> eaf52/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 13:12:58 -0600
>> From: SR Ballard <sen.otaku at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] heart attack while alone
>> Message-ID: <7340B7FF-8932-4A3C-93F8-7E581543B7E4 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> ?All Senior Citizens Should Have Life Alert?
>> Jokes aside, my grandma used one of these when she had her heart
>> attack(s).
>> 
>> SR Ballard
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Dave Sill <sparge at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 1:35 PM William Flynn Wallace
>>>> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> OK, tech people - what's the best way to make a remote phone call?
>>>> That is, just with my voice telling the gadget to call 911 or people
>>>> on my contact list.
>>> 
>>> "Hey Google, call 9-1-1.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Dave
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/634
>> c51f4/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 17:20:14 -0700
>> From: Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAK7-onsJmQfiGmO8ebCDeu7ZeuD-LJLTXaomc+xFLUx6TiidFA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
>> Much better than a christmas card.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>>> around the same time next year.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> Sample my Kindle books at:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ==============
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ==============
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>> again.
>>> 
>>> ================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Happy New Year all.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people
>>> with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I
>>> am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say
>>> something about this very important and obvious part of our natural
>>> world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything
>>> interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like
>>> saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can
>>> regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly
>>> trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am
>>> confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad
>>> Duntoldme spoke to me about it in
>>> a dream.
>>> 
>>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>>> from today.
>>> 
>>> John K Clark
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/0e6
>> af282/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 18:49:52 -0600
>> From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAO+xQEac6sQ=JvGV5=u7jF61N8RmGZsfN+J8pN21PowbhUi4ng at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> (sorry this took so long for a reply)  Spike wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not doing that
>> unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around that
>> material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the administration
>> can freely offer online material about Christianity, Protestantism or
>> Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)
>> 
>> 
>> Are those materials that the school system developed, or just links to
>> Wikipedia or something?  It raises a big question for me:  I would oppose
>> letting any gov. absolutely rule education.  But I also have trouble with
>> letting parents opt their kids out.  To a certain point every kid should
>> get the same education (except for topics on which they excel and can go
>> further).  Sure, the kids can go home and Google Hinduism, but will they?
>> And in a very real sense, all of the religions are huge parts of
>> history, and history must be taught without anyone being excused.
>> Otherwise you
>> have even worse bias than the school is presenting because of opt-outs
>> being left in ignorance.
>> 
>> Who gets to choose the education material?  In Texas it is very, very
>> strictly controlled and very conservative in matters of sex and history.
>> Their legislatorosauruses tried to ban a vaccine for cervical cancer.  I
>> do not know if they succeeded, but we are talking about very primitive
>> people here.  Men who want to be in charge of women's health and bodies.
>> 
>> Another problem:  kids need teachers who are there in the same room. I
>> hope this will never change. Hard to question things online, I assume.
>> Spike
>> can tell us just how the online content is pitched.  Is it to the average
>> student?  I assume that is true.  Therefore the slower student will need
>> somebody to answer questions.  The very best students may not need
>> questions answered, but I was one and I was full of questions.
>> 
>> For Spike - the two hospitals in Jackson are Baptist and Catholic, and
>> yes, they do ask about your religion if you are a patient.  Of course you
>> are not forced to answer.  I just check for no visits by religious
>> personnel. Different situation than a business etc.
>> 
>> 
>> billw
>> 
>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 1:25 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of *William Flynn Wallace
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, December 9, 2018 10:55 AM
>>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Rick Warren on religion
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> ? If a parent complains, then the student has the option of not
>>>>> doing
>>> that unit.  There is enough material that the student can learn around
>>> that material and still make the tall pointy grade.  Now the
>>> administration can freely offer online material about Christianity,
>>> Protestantism or
>>> Catholicism, Islam, Hindu, anything they want (and they do.)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ? I find this very sad and very disturbing?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Indeed?  I find it happy and comforting, particularly after reviewing
>>> the material myself.  It doesn?t promote or denigrate any particular
>>> religion (it isn?t obvious to me if they do) but explains a lotta lotta
>>> about why and how come.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ? It was bad enough when nothing was taught and now it may be even
>>>> worse?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Disagree.  It was bad enough, but now is much better.  I recall when
>>> biology was being taught in the public school without mentioning
>>> evolution, how little sense it all makes without that cornerstone
>>> concept.  Without some knowledge of religion, history in general makes
>>> damn little sense.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For instance, we in the USA recently celebrated a festival of
>>> Thanksgiving, where we talk about pilgrims, European people seeking
>>> religious freedom.  OK.  Why did both Catholic and Protestant
>>> authorities have heartburn with them?  Seems like one or the other would
>>> have been OK with them.  Reason: civil authorities were hoping to use
>>> religion as a unifying force in their cultures.  Perhaps they hoped (in
>>> the ideal case) that everyone in their country would subscribe to the
>>> religion of the crown.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> OK, that makes sense.  Now, separatists, where do they fit?  No
>>> allegiance to the Pope or the state religion.  Now the crown can?t be
>>> sure of their loyalty.  They can?t be sure if they can trust the
>>> separatists to charge the enemy.  They don?t know whether to fight them
>>> or trust them.  So? they don?t want them.  No one wants them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The separatists want to follow their own way.  They got on board a ship
>>> and sailed to undeveloped territory where they damn well knew their
>>> chances of survival were a tossup.  They went anyway.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That?s powerful motivation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ?Letting parents select what their children are taught is a road to
>>>> 
>>> ignorance and that leads to bigotry and that leads to street fights all
>>> the way up to war?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> There is that, but it might be a road away from ignorance and away from
>>> bigotry, and solves street fights and war.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ?As for forms, I have no idea what is current, but most of the forms
>>>> I
>>>> 
>>> see, census, hospital, have places for religions?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hmmm, OK.  I haven?t seen that in decades.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ?  I would guess that no businesses do this anymore?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Not if they don?t want to get the pants sued offa them.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ?  Who else?  No idea?bill w
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have lived in California so long, I have forgotten how the rest of
>>> the world operates.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> spike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20181231/692
>> e4c0d/attachment-0001.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:50:10 +1100
>> From: Colin Hales <col.hales at gmail.com>
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAGHyZJk0=tv7eMNb5yrSbfBK=utaHT9TJLpi=9S2bi2ogoU0Ww at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> 
>> Good job! Is it just me or is there a pattern emerging? ??
>> Happy 2019!
>> Cheers
>> Colin
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue., 1 Jan. 2019, 11:23 am Brent Allsop <brent.allsop at gmail.com
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> I've enjoyed this, every year you send it.
>>> Much better than a christmas card.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 10:49 AM Dan TheBookMan <danust2012 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Based on my paranormal powers; predict you will make this prediction
>>>> around the same time next year.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Dan
>>>> Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Dec 31, 2018, at 9:22 AM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ==============
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ==============
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change
>>>> one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet
>>>> again.
>>>> 
>>>> ================
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Happy New Year all.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear
>>>> in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous
>>>> prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of
>>>> people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they
>>>> have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want
>>>> to say something about this very important and obvious part of our
>>>> natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find
>>>> anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is
>>>> crazy, like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth
>>>> Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs
>>>> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in
>>>> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true
>>>> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about
>>>> it in a dream.
>>>> 
>>>> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year
>>>> from today.
>>>> 
>>>> John K Clark
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>> 
>>> 
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190101/828
>> cf398/attachment.html>
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> 
>> End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 184, Issue 1
>> ********************************************
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Tue Jan  1 15:26:59 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 07:26:59 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
Message-ID: <8ff8080112ce986b1993a3025bccd3e2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

So how big can a single qubit get? Well tests of Bell's inequality
indicate that particles can maintain their entanglement at any distance.
Furthermore a spin measurements of either particle yields a single bit of
information that encompasses the spins of both particles at once. This
means that this entangled system of two +/- 1/2 spin particles can even be
space-like separated and still encode but a single bit of information.
This means that information is non-local and a single bit can span the
universe(s) or, alternatively, fit in a micro SD card.

So quantum information in the form of a single qubit spread across
space-time is the essence of what Einstein called spooky action at a
distance. So is that information delocalized by some kind of quantum-sized
wormhole? Or is it just a global hidden-variable in a Matrix-like
simulation?

Stuart LaForge





From msd001 at gmail.com  Wed Jan  2 02:59:04 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2019 21:59:04 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
In-Reply-To: <8ff8080112ce986b1993a3025bccd3e2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <8ff8080112ce986b1993a3025bccd3e2.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKZUBjrpBtS+fJY1DYBy8j11jL4bWDPj1gkXxWdxqacZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 10:31 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com wrote:

>
> So quantum information in the form of a single qubit spread across
> space-time is the essence of what Einstein called spooky action at a
> distance. So is that information delocalized by some kind of quantum-sized
> wormhole? Or is it just a global hidden-variable in a Matrix-like
> simulation?
>

I intuit that there is a dependence on information in another dimension or
a relation to information that can only be transformed by certain rules,
which effectively externalizes context into the syntax and grammar so the
qubit itself is encoding information only when that context is already
understood.

I just read an article on octonions, which has a lot of words I don't know
how to use but which gives new avenues for thinking.

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190101/6e0f9416/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jan  3 20:58:45 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2019 12:58:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
Message-ID: <e4fa439a4315fe54b45c56f840823f11.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, 10:31 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com wrote:

>> So quantum information in the form of a single qubit spread across
>> space-time is the essence of what Einstein called spooky action at a
>> distance. So is that information delocalized by some kind of
>> quantum-sized wormhole? Or is it just a global hidden-variable in a
>> Matrix-like simulation?

> I intuit that there is a dependence on information in another dimension

By dimension here, do you mean an extra dimension like an orthogonal axis
added to 3+1 space-time to give an exclusive channel for quantum
information to be shared between distant events? Or do you mean a separate
space entirely like a platonic realm of bits and wave functions?

> or a relation to information that can only be transformed by certain
> rules,? which effectively externalizes context into the syntax and
> grammar so the qubit itself is encoding information only when that
> context is already understood.

Shannon information exists whether one understands the context or not. The
raw byte code of your favorite movie in some video format is still
information, even if you don't have the right video codec to play the
movie. Semantics and meaning are relative but information itself seems to
be absolute and independent of ones ability to understand it or even just
see it. A closed book still contains information even if it is in a
language you don't understand.

>?I just read an article on octonions, which
> has a lot of words I don't know how to use but which gives new avenues
> for thinking.

I am impressed as octanions are anything but easy. But if you can develop
your understanding of them, you will well-poised to develop intuitions
about low dimensional Hilbert spaces and single particle wave functions.
So keep at it and the words will come to you.

Stuart LaForge




From pharos at gmail.com  Fri Jan  4 11:46:55 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 11:46:55 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
Message-ID: <CAL_armiRPoGyy0Khiyy-pvWxbotWxppqvYK8RzfLTizza+FQPg@mail.gmail.com>

It?s the End of the Gene As We Know It
We are not nearly as determined by our genes as once thought.
By Ken Richardson January 3, 2019

<http://nautil.us/issue/68/context/its-the-end-of-the-gene-as-we-know-it>

Quote:

Increasingly, we are finding that, in complex evolved traits?like
human minds?there is little prediction from DNA variation through
development to individual differences. The genes are crucial, of
course, but nearly all genetic variations are dealt with in the way
you can vary your journey from A to B: by constructing alternative
routes. ?Multiple alternative pathways ? are the rule rather than the
exception,? reported a paper in the journal BioSystems in 2007.

Conversely, it is now well known that a group of genetically identical
individuals, reared in identical environments?as in pure-bred
laboratory animals?do not become identical adults. Rather, they
develop to exhibit the full range of bodily and functional variations
found in normal, genetically-variable, groups. In a report in Science
in 2013, Julia Fruend and colleagues observed this effect in
differences in developing brain structures.

In the same vein, we can now understand why the same genetic resources
can be used in many different ways in different organs and tissues.
Genes now utilized in the development of our arms and legs, first
appeared in organisms that have neither. Genes used in fruit flies for
gonad development are now used in the development of human brains. And
most genes are used in several different tissues for different
purposes at the same time.
--------

Hmmm...  New research seems to be turning Genes and DNA upside down.
Maybe environment has more importance in directing how humans develop?

BillK


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sat Jan  5 00:07:54 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:07:54 -0600
Subject: [ExI] antivirus
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>

Norton just did to me what some others companies have done:  jumped the
price on renewal by a lot.

So - what's the best one to replace Norton?  I see McAfee and Bitdefender
getting a lot of top reviews.

What do you think?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190104/63f40c91/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Sat Jan  5 00:12:19 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 19:12:19 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
In-Reply-To: <e4fa439a4315fe54b45c56f840823f11.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <e4fa439a4315fe54b45c56f840823f11.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbKvCLzoBKjvN7ng3pzYR_wOZR1VH6Q8G_2PKByV_D5MoA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019, 4:03 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com wrote:

>
> > I intuit that there is a dependence on information in another dimension
>
> By dimension here, do you mean an extra dimension like an orthogonal axis
> added to 3+1 space-time to give an exclusive channel for quantum
> information to be shared between distant events? Or do you mean a separate
> space entirely like a platonic realm of bits and wave functions?
>

I guess the distinction is one of scope or possibly bandwidth.  A separate
space would be 3 of those original axis taken as a tuple, right? :)  maybe
3+1 is 6 taken as 3 + a checksum of another 3.  Call it a spacetime RAID.
many worlds is redundancy and the posited bifurcation in world lines is
perspective-induced distortion.  Idk, maybe it's analogous to the blind
spot caused by the optic nerve that our processing equipment simply edited
out of normal awareness.


> > or a relation to information that can only be transformed by certain
> > rules,  which effectively externalizes context into the syntax and
> > grammar so the qubit itself is encoding information only when that
> > context is already understood.
>
> Shannon information exists whether one understands the context or not. The
> raw byte code of your favorite movie in some video format is still
> information, even if you don't have the right video codec to play the
> movie. Semantics and meaning are relative but information itself seems to
> be absolute and independent of ones ability to understand it or even just
> see it. A closed book still contains information even if it is in a
> language you don't understand.
>

Yeah, agreed.  However, to strain the analogy some... you read 1984 when
you were X years old.  It contained a string of bytes that represembles the
exact text authored by Orwell.  You read it again when you are 2X years
old; same exact bytes so it's the same information - but you experience a
slightly different story thanks to additional X years of subjective
context. You might also learn there is a steganographic encoding of another
message inside those bytes.   Knowing the cypher grants additional layers
of story,  perhaps even changing the A story because of the B story ... or
does that simply create a C story?  Or are we assuming the bytes already
literally "mean" every permutation of cypher and harmonic/overtones
possible for byte stream of length N?  (Including resequencing bytes or
groups of bytes)

This reminds me of a thought I had as a child: how many ways can you write
the number 8?  4+4, 10-2, etc with all the ways you learned in 1st grade,
but also 2^3 and sqrt(64) and such that you learn later.   Also encodings
like binary or hexadecimal.  Etc.  The point was that "8" is only one
convention for how to express the idea of eight.  Maybe this comes back to
the Platonic realm?


> > I just read an article on octonions, which
> > has a lot of words I don't know how to use but which gives new avenues
> > for thinking.
>
> I am impressed as octanions are anything but easy. But if you can develop
> your understanding of them, you will well-poised to develop intuitions
> about low dimensional Hilbert spaces and single particle wave functions.
> So keep at it and the words will come to you.
>

Thanks :)

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190104/0a1d1d45/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sat Jan  5 02:45:31 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2019 18:45:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
Message-ID: <ec2517ee46b589560ec8646dbc32843e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:


> <http://nautil.us/issue/68/context/its-the-end-of-the-gene-as-we-know-it>
> Quote:
>
> Increasingly, we are finding that, in complex evolved traits?like
> human minds?there is little prediction from DNA variation through
> development to individual differences. The genes are crucial, of course,
> but nearly all genetic variations are dealt with in the way you can vary
> your journey from A to B: by constructing alternative routes. ?Multiple
> alternative pathways ? are the rule rather than the exception,? reported a
> paper in the journal BioSystems in 2007.

No geneticist or biologist claims that complex phenotypic traits are
genetically determined from birth by genes alone. That is a popular
misconception. Actual genes make up a very small portion of our DNA and
the intragenic regions have functions too. All his gene bashing without
accounting for the importance of intergenic regions, introns, and
epigenetics suggests he has some kind of idealogical axe to grind.

[snip]
> In the same vein, we can now understand why the same genetic resources
> can be used in many different ways in different organs and tissues. Genes
> now utilized in the development of our arms and legs, first appeared in
> organisms that have neither. Genes used in fruit flies for gonad
> development are now used in the development of human brains. And most
> genes are used in several different tissues for different purposes at the
> same time. --------

Richardson uses a lot of straw man arguments largely similar to the
following: "The popular view of genes is wrong therefore the science of
genetics is garbage." I think he has got some sort of political agenda
here because no serious biologist believes in pure genetic determinism.
Keep in mind that the cytoplasm of the egg cell is inherited as well as
the microflora, viruses, etc. Actual biologists know this.

> Hmmm...? New research seems to be turning Genes and DNA upside down.
> Maybe environment has more importance in directing how humans develop?

I agree, I just don't like Richardson's politically-motivated
mischaracterization of modern biology. He is subtly antiscience or
bioluddite or something. He probably avoids GMO foods as well.

Stuart LaForge




From pharos at gmail.com  Sat Jan  5 08:45:45 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 08:45:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
In-Reply-To: <ec2517ee46b589560ec8646dbc32843e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <ec2517ee46b589560ec8646dbc32843e.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armignHTfGFiMuFtFg3N=k4Q+_-=5REoyse390kwGh0xrBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 5 Jan 2019 at 02:51, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
> No geneticist or biologist claims that complex phenotypic traits are
> genetically determined from birth by genes alone. That is a popular
> misconception. Actual genes make up a very small portion of our DNA and
> the intragenic regions have functions too. All his gene bashing without
> accounting for the importance of intergenic regions, introns, and
> epigenetics suggests he has some kind of idealogical axe to grind.
>
> Richardson uses a lot of straw man arguments largely similar to the
> following: "The popular view of genes is wrong therefore the science of
> genetics is garbage." I think he has got some sort of political agenda
> here because no serious biologist believes in pure genetic determinism.
> Keep in mind that the cytoplasm of the egg cell is inherited as well as
> the microflora, viruses, etc. Actual biologists know this.


Richardson is a psychologist. He is now retired, so presumably not
career motivated.  :)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Richardson_(psychologist)>

His agenda seems to be anti IQ tests and anti genetic determinism.
Genetic determinism is still a popular idea among the general public
and arguably still needs opposing.
I doubt that Richardson is trying to teach geneticists their business.  :)

He seems to be trying to educate the public against ideas like
eugenics and 'the poor deserve to be poor'.

See: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_determinism>
Quote:
Biological determinism is the belief that a human?s behavior is
controlled by a person?s genes and inherited traits.
---------

The final paragraph of that article sounds very much like what
Richardson is saying --
Quote:
The belief in biological determinism has been matched by a blank slate
denial of any possible influence of genes on human behavior, leading
to a long and heated debate about "nature and nurture". By the 21st
century, many scientists had come to feel that the dichotomy made no
sense. They noted that genes were expressed within an environment, in
particular that of prenatal development, and that genes were
continuously controlled by the environment through mechanisms such as
epigenetics.
--------

BillK


From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com  Sat Jan  5 08:59:51 2019
From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 09:59:51 +0100
Subject: [ExI] antivirus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF0GBnhuOxJrp1=9Ppj8HpPt-nOQGS4OfUKEPVM_Gmw5Dg4ykg@mail.gmail.com>

Fsecure have the bonus of being developed in Finland. Very strict privacy
laws and their products have not caused too much problems for me (as
opposed to most of the other vendors)
/Henrik

Den l?r 5 jan. 2019 01:13William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> skrev:

> Norton just did to me what some others companies have done:  jumped the
> price on renewal by a lot.
>
> So - what's the best one to replace Norton?  I see McAfee and Bitdefender
> getting a lot of top reviews.
>
> What do you think?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190105/98a25d2b/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 03:21:29 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 22:21:29 -0500
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
In-Reply-To: <CAOJFdbKvCLzoBKjvN7ng3pzYR_wOZR1VH6Q8G_2PKByV_D5MoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e4fa439a4315fe54b45c56f840823f11.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CAOJFdbKvCLzoBKjvN7ng3pzYR_wOZR1VH6Q8G_2PKByV_D5MoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv21pqDifm4R4-CPg3xKbYB4H2YxyYaGoAi94cG0UQCFgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:25 PM Mike Dougherty <msd001 at gmail.com> wrote:

* > you read 1984 when you were X years old.  It contained a string of
> bytes that represembles the exact text authored by Orwell.  You read it
> again when you are 2X years old; same exact bytes so it's the same
> information - but you experience a slightly different story thanks to
> additional X years of subjective context.*



Information content is a measure of surprise so if you're rereading 1984
it's not as surprising as the first time you read it even if you've
forgotten some of it, so the informational context of rereading is less.
Another example is a fire alarm, lets say in any given minute there is one
chance it 10,000 it will go off so if the alarm doesn't go off it's not
very surprising so you haven't learned much but you've learned a little and
we calculate exactly how much.

The informational content is the base 2 log of 1/p where p is the
probability, the probability the alarm will *not* go off is 9999/10000 and
the base 2 log of 10000/9999 is only .000144 . But the probability the
alarm will go off is 1/10000 and the log base 2 of 10000 is 13.2877. So if
the alarm does go off you get a 13.2877 bit message but if it doesn't go
off you only get a .000144 bit message.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190105/ba52bcff/attachment.html>

From sparge at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 16:57:55 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 11:57:55 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antivirus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2f5JQNjpguBsOjy22+AWkhcVPjHJyWT2gktJC+xHtfirA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jan 4, 2019 at 7:13 PM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> What do you think?
>

Save your money. I ran Windows for years with various AV products and none
of them ever did anything useful. Instead, keep good backups, keep your
system patched, and use common sense about following links and clicking on
pop-ups.

If you really need an AV for peace of mind, ClamAV is available free.

-Dave
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190106/dfe7cb24/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 17:17:03 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 12:17:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] antivirus
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0DPn+x9ht4jToq0SMro26A_hVNeMygVVNc1POhLgMU=g@mail.gmail.com>

You might consider getting a Apple Mac, I've used them for years with no
anti virus program at all and never had a bit of trouble with viruses.

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190106/a17d285a/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jan  6 19:32:00 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 13:32:00 -0600
Subject: [ExI] antivirus
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv0DPn+x9ht4jToq0SMro26A_hVNeMygVVNc1POhLgMU=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEb-XfAZYr=YgCJzJDC22GFY6KP2meHV7yhPq71Qw=m+yA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv0DPn+x9ht4jToq0SMro26A_hVNeMygVVNc1POhLgMU=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZddPT25u-f=rwzd5Th05K=tfick0zn5w1Njuv+7_gwZQ@mail.gmail.com>

John - I bought a Powermac awhile back - $4000.  When asked if I wanted a
protection program for $300 I said "What do I get?"  He said "Peace of
mind."  Sold.

So it went back to the factory after one year.  AGain after two years.
Again in the third year.  Just after the protection elapsed, the screen
quit and it cost over $600 just for the part.  That was the end of Apple
for me.  I realize that it's just the best now, but I harbor a grudge, and
Wallaces don't forget or forgive!!  (I have a desktop unit that is the last
one I will buy, so I am stuck with Windows - no, forget Linux - my brain is
too old, never mind my wife's)

dave - my wife uses the Windows machines.  I use a Chromebook, which needs
no AV.  You just never know when the cute cat pictures come with malware,
so she has to have something.  I will try the Clamwin thing - best free one
I assume, since you are recommending it.

As for backing up, I put my stuff in Google Drive.  I am not sure what to
back up on the windows machines if all the data is in the cloud, like
Google Drive.  I have not backed up anything for a long time and have not
had a need for it, so ????  Is all the data from Quicken in the cloud too?

Thanks!  bill w

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 11:22 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> You might consider getting a Apple Mac, I've used them for years with no
> anti virus program at all and never had a bit of trouble with viruses.
>
> John K Clark
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190106/ae87db9f/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jan  7 02:55:03 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 18:55:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] The unlimited size of qubits.
Message-ID: <0a38bdc75639f55a1fba30f2c9845e59.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Mike Dougherty wrote:

> I guess the distinction is one of scope or possibly bandwidth.? A
> separate space would be 3 of those original axis taken as a tuple, right?
> :)? maybe 3+1 is 6 taken as 3 + a checksum of another 3.? Call it a
> spacetime RAID.? many worlds is redundancy and the posited bifurcation in
> world lines is perspective-induced distortion.

That is an interesting notion. Although generally it is the differences
between  Everett branches that is considered informative rather than the
redundancy. How do exactly half of the universes know to show you the
electron being spin-up while the other half know to be spin down?

It is the completeness of the multiverse that is the mystery. How do the
Everett branches ensure that every possible outcome is realized somewhere
unless they were coordinating with one another?

I mean sure one can just throw infinity at it and say given an infinite
number of chances any highly improbable event will be realized somewhere.
But if you do that, then there is no need for bifurcation to take place
because all possible universes are already there a priori.

> to the blind spot caused by the optic nerve that our processing equipment
> simply edited out of normal awareness.
?
No bifurcation means no need for a blind-spot to prevent you from sensing
all those copies of you out there since you are not spawning them every
time you flip a coin. They are already out there somewhere. It seems that
infinity is one assumption that makes for fewer overall assumptions. Such
as a mechanism to store and organize all the exponentially bifurcating
universes.

>> Shannon information exists whether one understands the context or not.
>> Semantics and meaning are relative but information itself seems to
>>  be absolute and independent of ones ability to understand it or even
>> just see it. A closed book still contains information even if it is in a
>> language you don't understand.

> Yeah, agreed.? However, to strain the analogy some... you read 1984 when
> you were X years old.? It contained a string of bytes that represembles
> the exact text authored by Orwell.? You read it again when you are 2X
> years old; same exact bytes so it's the same information - but you
> experience a slightly different story thanks to additional X years of
> subjective context.

Yes but that is because the meaning has changed, not the information
content. Information and meaning are largely independent of one another.
Information is  a constant in that everyone who reads "1984" in a given
language will have the same number of bits communicated to them

While meaning is like a variable, in that no two people will interpret
"1984" identically. Not even you at two different ages. Consider how in
the English language terrible and terrific used to mean the same thing. Or
how in English "pan" means a type of cookware while in Latin it means
bread.

> You might also learn there is a steganographic
> encoding of another message inside those bytes.? ?Knowing the cypher
> grants additional layers of story,? perhaps even changing the A story
> because of the B story ... or does that simply create a C story?? Or are
> we assuming the bytes already literally "mean" every permutation of
> cypher and harmonic/overtones possible for byte stream of length N??
> (Including resequencing bytes or groups of bytes)

Neither. The meaning of a message lies first in the sender and then the
recipient, but never in the symbols themselves. The symbols are arbitrary.
Furthermore, the sender's meaning i.e. the purport is not guaranteed to be
at all the same as the recipient's meaning i.e. the import. For example,
you calling for "help!" in the jungle might be interpreted as "dinner!" to
a hungry tiger with almost the same degree of urgency. Or you might see a
cloud that looked like the letter "I". Context is everything.

> This reminds me of a thought I had as a child: how many ways can you write
> the number 8?? 4+4, 10-2, etc with all the ways you learned in 1st grade,
> but also 2^3 and sqrt(64) and such that you learn later.? ?Also encodings
> like binary or hexadecimal.? Etc.? The point was that "8" is only one
> convention for how to express the idea of eight.

There are an uncountably infinite number of possible ways to express the
number 8.

Proof:

Let A = x+y = 8 represent the set of ordered pairs of integers (x,y) where
the sum of the two integers x & y  are equal to 8. This can be represented
as a function F from the set of integers to the set of integers such that
F:Z->Z | F(x) = y = 8-x.

Clearly on can see there is a unique integer y for every integer x. Since
there are a countably many integers there are therefore a countably
infinite number of pairs of integers such that x+y = 8. Therefore the
cardinality of the set A is Aleph-zero.

Now consider the arithmetic mean or average of the elements of all
possible subsets of A. Each such average would itself be an expression
that was equal to 8. e.g. the average of any number of 8s will itself be
8. Therefore there are 2^(Aleph-null) possible expressions for the average
of ways to express 8 as the sum of two integers. Therefore therefore there
are at least as many ways to express the number 8 as there are real
numbers. Or in other words there are at least Aleph-1 possible ways to
express the number 8.

> Maybe this comes back to the Platonic realm?

Or maybe it comes back to infinity. :-)

Stuart LaForge





From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jan  7 06:53:45 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 22:53:45 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
Message-ID: <6441d149609e6b388aff7967c05e80a8.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:

> His agenda seems to be anti IQ tests and anti genetic determinism.
> Genetic determinism is still a popular idea among the general public
> and arguably still needs opposing. I doubt that Richardson is trying to
> teach geneticists their business.? :)

Maybe not but it seems to me that he is cherry-picking data and even
entire empirical methodologies (like IQ tests or genetic testing) to
extend the egalitarian idealogy that "all people are morally equivalent"
to somehow mean that people are supposed to be equal in other domains as
well. I don't think that is necessarily right or enlightened. Especially
when it intentionally obscures the truth.

On average West Africans are taller than South East Asians and on average
South East Asians are better at math than West Africans. There are
likewise numerous other measurable differences between them. Some of these
differences might be due to genetics and some culture, but to discredit
the experiments and data that suggest these differences exist in the cause
of "racial equality" is misguided.

As long as one concedes that any two individuals or tribes of people are
of equal moral worth, it is not at all "problematic" or racist to
acknowledge differences between them especially if those differences are
systematically and reproducibly measurable.

> He seems to be trying to educate the public against ideas like
> eugenics and 'the poor deserve to be poor'.

Trying to discredit genetics is a piss-poor way of opposing eugenics.
Eugenics was faulty because it was a top down attempt at managing the gene
pool based on a political agenda. As such, it is brittle, corruption-prone
and failure-prone.

On the other hand, something like my concept of agoragenics (market-place
genetics) which Richardson calls "consumer genetics" might work a lot
better because it is bottom up and should be able to self-organize once
the technology matures.

Wealth is not a measure of moral worth but an abstraction of the amount of
resources an individual controls for any and all reasons. There is cause
and effect in play within a game that gives rise to winners and losers.
There is no shame in losing, the laws of nature guarantee someone must.

Blessed are the losers for they are martyrs of evolution.

There is neither moral (nor divine) judgement going on. Therefore to speak
of "the poor deserving to be poor" is non-sensical. It is the nature of
the great game of life that there are winners and losers. One can do
everything right and still lose.

I don't often quote the bible, but this is a gem: "The race is not to the
swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or
wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance
happen to them all."

Stuart LaForge



From pharos at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 11:20:46 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 11:20:46 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
In-Reply-To: <6441d149609e6b388aff7967c05e80a8.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <6441d149609e6b388aff7967c05e80a8.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiQoEaBK5gidoA2h6SBh+92inagL1ki_Lf7uhHkw9x+kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 07:00, Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
>
> BillK wrote:
>
> > His agenda seems to be anti IQ tests and anti genetic determinism.
> > Genetic determinism is still a popular idea among the general public
> > and arguably still needs opposing. I doubt that Richardson is trying to
> > teach geneticists their business.  :)
>
> Maybe not but it seems to me that he is cherry-picking data and even
> entire empirical methodologies (like IQ tests or genetic testing) to
> extend the egalitarian idealogy that "all people are morally equivalent"
> to somehow mean that people are supposed to be equal in other domains as
> well. I don't think that is necessarily right or enlightened. Especially
> when it intentionally obscures the truth.
>
> On average West Africans are taller than South East Asians and on average
> South East Asians are better at math than West Africans. There are
> likewise numerous other measurable differences between them. Some of these
> differences might be due to genetics and some culture, but to discredit
> the experiments and data that suggest these differences exist in the cause
> of "racial equality" is misguided.
>
> As long as one concedes that any two individuals or tribes of people are
> of equal moral worth, it is not at all "problematic" or racist to
> acknowledge differences between them especially if those differences are
> systematically and reproducibly measurable.
>


It seems to me that you are arguing against something that Richardson
hasn't said.
I don't think that you need to tell a psychologist that humans are all
different, with differing abilities, some due to genetics, some to
culture, some to environment and some to pure chance.


> > He seems to be trying to educate the public against ideas like
> > eugenics and 'the poor deserve to be poor'.
>
> Trying to discredit genetics is a piss-poor way of opposing eugenics.
> Eugenics was faulty because it was a top down attempt at managing the gene
> pool based on a political agenda. As such, it is brittle, corruption-prone
> and failure-prone.
>
> On the other hand, something like my concept of agoragenics (market-place
> genetics) which Richardson calls "consumer genetics" might work a lot
> better because it is bottom up and should be able to self-organize once
> the technology matures.
>
> Wealth is not a measure of moral worth but an abstraction of the amount of
> resources an individual controls for any and all reasons. There is cause
> and effect in play within a game that gives rise to winners and losers.
> There is no shame in losing, the laws of nature guarantee someone must.
>
> Blessed are the losers for they are martyrs of evolution.
>
> There is neither moral (nor divine) judgement going on. Therefore to speak
> of "the poor deserving to be poor" is non-sensical. It is the nature of
> the great game of life that there are winners and losers. One can do
> everything right and still lose.
>
> I don't often quote the bible, but this is a gem: "The race is not to the
> swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or
> wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance
> happen to them all."
>


I don't see that Richardson would disagree with any of your comments.

What he is objecting to is genetic determination.  Because someone
doesn't have some genes that may be linked to intelligence they are
told that they will not be successful in life and not given
opportunities available to others. Similarly for culturally biased IQ
tests. At present these are poor indicators of life 'success' -
whatever that might mean.
Richardson is claiming that these tests are being used as a
pseudo-scientific justification to deny opportunities to people for
other more ignoble reasons. Of course that doesn't mean that he is
claiming that everyone can be a rocket scientist. Society is a complex
structure which needs people of many different abilities.



BillK

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jan  7 15:30:21 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 09:30:21 -0600
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>

If we accept the definition of intelligence as the ability to adapt to
novel situations, then it seems to me that we can break that down into two
categories;  creativity at dealing with the unique characteristics of the
new situation, and the ability to recognize in the new parts of the old -
that is, to see that some already learned things can be applied to the new
situation, which is generalization.

It could very well be that generalization makes a bell curve, with most
people of middling ability and so on.

The highly intelligent have, according to this plan, either a great
creativity at dealing with the new, a great ability to use old learnings,
or both.  A person with greater experience would have a bigger database
from which to generalize, but that doesn't guarantee that a person can use
it well.  A person with a much smaller database could have more creativity
and do better than a more experienced person.  The ratio of
experience/creativity will vary a lot from person to person, I will assume.

I don't have any better understanding of creativity than anyone else, or a
better way of measuring it, but I don't think we can leave all the weight
of the ability to adapt to new situations to generalization.  If we could,
then I think that building an intelligent AI would be fairly easy.

How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what it is or
how to measure it?  This is a big challenge.

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190107/fedc8d5a/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Jan 13 00:27:43 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2019 16:27:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Genes aren't what we thought they were.......
Message-ID: <4ad9ec695212976a8328d629b92a2e2d.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

BillK wrote:


> What he is objecting to is genetic determination.? Because someone
> doesn't have some genes that may be linked to intelligence they are told
> that they will not be successful in life and not given opportunities
> available to others. Similarly for culturally biased IQ tests. At present
> these are poor indicators of life 'success' - whatever that might mean.

Part of the problem here is sloppy terminology. To say that someone does
not have a particular gene is misleading. Almost all humans have the same
genes just not the same alleles or varieties of those genes. Just like
most people wear shoes although each might wear one type or brand of shoes
or another with slightly different characteristics between them.

So everyone has the intelligence genes, it is just some alleles of those
genes might give those individuals who bear them an advantage in one
aspect of intelligence instead of another. But for most people, those
differences would amount to a matter of degree, not of kind.

Some shoes are just better for some tasks than others. So just as
insulated hiking boots might perform better on a snowy mountainside, a
pair of sandals might perform better at the beach. This does not mean
someone wearing sandals can't climb mountains, it just means that they are
not particularly suited for the task.

That being said, ascribing predictive powers to a set of genes loosely
associated with the complex and poorly-defined trait of "intelligence"
with regards to the also poorly-defined outcome of "success" is
intellectually dishonest.

> Richardson is claiming that these tests are being used as a
> pseudo-scientific justification to deny opportunities to people for other
> more ignoble reasons.

Does he have any support for this claim? I have applied for a lot of jobs
in my time and have never had any potential employer ask me for IQ tests,
SAT scores, or to take a genetic test. The few tests I have had to do for
potential employers are more often personality tests and drug tests.

In fact, I would hypothesize that personality, social skills, and
relationships are much more predictive of success than I.Q.

> Of course that doesn't mean that he is claiming that
> everyone can be a rocket scientist. Society is a complex structure which
> needs people of many different abilities.

Yes. And this is where society really drops the ball. Society seems more
intent at identifying and weeding out people it doesn't want rather than
explicitly defining the abilities it needs, and identifying and nurturing
the people who have those abilities.

This is evident in the higher education system which effectively forces
young people to borrow money in order to speculate on what skill sets the
job market will demand 3-5 years down the line or up to twice that time if
they want to specialize in some field for a higher reward that in reality
they might ultimately never receive.

It is never a good idea to borrow money to gamble with unless you are a
banker who is too big to fail. But this what happens when you live in a
society where bankers hire lawyers to write laws that benefit bankers.

Stuart LaForge



From danust2012 at gmail.com  Wed Jan  9 19:31:10 2019
From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 11:31:10 -0800
Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_aliens!?=
Message-ID: <335D949D-D203-42C9-89F7-FBC3D41906E1@gmail.com>

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46811618

Okay, too soon to tell, and if it?s verified it?s from 1.5 bya.

Regards,

Dan
   Sample my Kindle books at:
http://author.to/DanUst
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190109/e4839a25/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 10 19:11:22 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 13:11:22 -0600
Subject: [ExI] construction oops!
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYhgHM01tu7TOAn8Ovw9x+MoYUUmeoPNDM71SnpbpFGRA@mail.gmail.com>

As long as no one is taking up the ball I threw out on Intelligence (Dan? I
thought you would put in your opinion on generalization)-  a little fun.

https://www.giveitlove.com/these-contractors-probably-should-have-been-fired-yesterday/?utm_campaign=ycf-d-us-c-0-0-181127-gl-po-c7-a1&utm_medium=huffpo-po&utm_source=po&utm_content=fired3&mvt=i&mvn=8a3392b04f404cc490b81e9fd8838500&mvp=NA-HUFFPOST-11235841&mvl=APage+-+Right+Rail&chrome=1
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190110/7fe5857f/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Sun Jan 13 08:38:13 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 00:38:13 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
Message-ID: <b6a65f061827e4539d0816d388efb614.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Bill Wallace wrote:

> I don't have any better understanding of creativity than anyone
> else, or a better way of measuring it, but I don't think we can leave all
> the weight of the ability to adapt to new situations to generalization.?
> If we could, then I think that building an intelligent AI would be fairly
> easy. How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what it
> is or how to measure it?? This is a big challenge.

Perhaps we would be better off not teaching AI how to be creative at least
not for a long time. Perhaps humanity's ability to create and innovate
will be our saving grace. In the not too far off future when all
productive work is being done by machines, perhaps art will be our refuge,
invention our niche, and beauty our forte. I see no reason to rush our
eventual obsolescence. Oblivion isn't going anywhere.

Stuart LaForge




From atymes at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 18:28:02 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 10:28:02 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <b6a65f061827e4539d0816d388efb614.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <b6a65f061827e4539d0816d388efb614.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTbAtyBHcyojSudAbW8NPXxDsFX0PyTRE-HjgpAHWVfeg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 12:42 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> Bill Wallace wrote:
> > I don't have any better understanding of creativity than anyone
> > else, or a better way of measuring it, but I don't think we can leave all
> > the weight of the ability to adapt to new situations to generalization.
> > If we could, then I think that building an intelligent AI would be fairly
> > easy. How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what it
> > is or how to measure it?  This is a big challenge.
>
> Perhaps we would be better off not teaching AI how to be creative at least
> not for a long time. Perhaps humanity's ability to create and innovate
> will be our saving grace. In the not too far off future when all
> productive work is being done by machines, perhaps art will be our refuge,
> invention our niche, and beauty our forte. I see no reason to rush our
> eventual obsolescence. Oblivion isn't going anywhere.

Or perhaps go ahead and teach them, and focus some AI on the problem
of uploading consciousness.

"If you can't beat them, join them."

I, for one, would not mind becoming an AI, if the choice was that or
dying of old age.

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 13 18:45:44 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 12:45:44 -0600
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNTbAtyBHcyojSudAbW8NPXxDsFX0PyTRE-HjgpAHWVfeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b6a65f061827e4539d0816d388efb614.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
 <CALAdGNTbAtyBHcyojSudAbW8NPXxDsFX0PyTRE-HjgpAHWVfeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbtAck5KfoMnq_YiyNnMVzeSvhA5ZuK6cWRCk10MjoOmg@mail.gmail.com>

Stuart, I hope that creativity is not limited to the arts.  Why shouldn't
an AI create math?

'Physiologizing' is what we in psych call reducing everything to actions in
the body/brain.  So you know that a certain part of the amygdala controls
aggression.  So what?  Destroy it, stimulate it, and you get predictable
results.  But how does that relate to what is happening in a complete body
and brain?  The only answer I can think of that has any use at all might be
to develop drugs that act on the brain part.  Do we really want our lives
to be determined by a host of drugs we take in to activate or inhibit brain
functions?  In extreme cases, yes, that could be appropriate, such as in a
person who goes into rages and loses control.  That person could face a
decision:  go on the drug or go to jail.  But in ordinary life?  Not for
me.  Not unless functions are lost or become limited - Cialis comes to
mind!  (I am turning 77).

As for consciousness, we can find the brain parts that control it and thus
control those brain parts.  But as for defining and copying what those
parts do - I have serious doubts.

bill w

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 12:32 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 12:42 AM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com>
> wrote:
> > Bill Wallace wrote:
> > > I don't have any better understanding of creativity than anyone
> > > else, or a better way of measuring it, but I don't think we can leave
> all
> > > the weight of the ability to adapt to new situations to generalization.
> > > If we could, then I think that building an intelligent AI would be
> fairly
> > > easy. How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what
> it
> > > is or how to measure it?  This is a big challenge.
> >
> > Perhaps we would be better off not teaching AI how to be creative at
> least
> > not for a long time. Perhaps humanity's ability to create and innovate
> > will be our saving grace. In the not too far off future when all
> > productive work is being done by machines, perhaps art will be our
> refuge,
> > invention our niche, and beauty our forte. I see no reason to rush our
> > eventual obsolescence. Oblivion isn't going anywhere.
>
> Or perhaps go ahead and teach them, and focus some AI on the problem
> of uploading consciousness.
>
> "If you can't beat them, join them."
>
> I, for one, would not mind becoming an AI, if the choice was that or
> dying of old age.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190113/a8543f71/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Mon Jan 14 03:32:03 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:32:03 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
Message-ID: <5553b35e57e74b2abfc11fae151de0f7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:

>> Bill Wallace wrote:

>>> How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what
>>> it is or how to measure it?? This is a big challenge.
>>
>> Perhaps we would be better off not teaching AI how to be creative at
>> least not for a long time. Perhaps humanity's ability to create and
>> innovate will be our saving grace. In the not too far off future when
>> all productive work is being done by machines, perhaps art will be our
>> refuge, invention our niche, and beauty our forte. I see no reason to
>> rush our eventual obsolescence. Oblivion isn't going anywhere.
>
> Or perhaps go ahead and teach them, and focus some AI on the problem
> of uploading consciousness.
>
> "If you can't beat them, join them."

But to give them imagination is to enable them to lie. How could you trust
one to upload you rather than simply kill you and impersonate you in order
to take over your possessions and legal status?

Stuart LaForge








From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 03:50:51 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 19:50:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <5553b35e57e74b2abfc11fae151de0f7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
References: <5553b35e57e74b2abfc11fae151de0f7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSJ6ubBR12tfLH=2YeoDUZ=xaWU0rsxkoutkKcxWUZXtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 7:36 PM Stuart LaForge <avant at sollegro.com> wrote:
> But to give them imagination is to enable them to lie.

No, AIs can lie without imagination.

> How could you trust
> one to upload you rather than simply kill you and impersonate you in order
> to take over your possessions and legal status?

The same way I could trust any human doctor not to do the same
(replacing me with an upload of the doctor instead).

You can, of course, never be 100% certain the upload is the same
person.  It's a distinct discontinuity in identity.  At some level,
you just have to trust.  There's no way around it.  (Which doesn't
mean you don't take several measures to improve the odds that it is
still you afterward.  Just, don't dismiss the entire operation and
measures just because you can't get to 100% chance of survival.  A 99%
chance of you and 1% chance of dead-and-replaced is better than a 100%
chance of dead.)

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 14:17:22 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 09:17:22 -0500
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv1h99+ecRAy5prLx3iiEUCM66PyEsm5htouzZaCraK=mg@mail.gmail.com>

I originally sent this to the list a week ago but it kept bouncing so I
sent it directly to Bill and we discussed it off list, I'll try to send it
to the list again:
=====

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 10:36 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> How do we teach creativity to an AI when we don't even know what it is or
> how to measure it?


Einstein didn't know what creativity was or how to measure it and nobody
taught him to be creative, and yet he was, although he couldn't teach
others to be as creative as he was. There is considerable evidence
something similar will be true of AI. The exact same program, AlphaZero,
was able to play 3 entirely different board games GO, Chess, and Shogi at a
superhuman level. Previous programs could only play one game and they had
to have many thousands of games played by human grandmasters in their
database before they could do anything, but AlphaZero was different it
started with nothing in its database except for the basic rules of the
games, it then started playing against itself and used Neural Network
Algorithms to get better and better.

In just a few hours AlphaZero went from being a know nothing beginner to
easily defeating Deep Blue who in turn defeated the best human Chess player
in 1996. The downside of Neural Networks is after a while they become so
complicated nobody understands how they work anymore, or at least not in
any detail; and AlphaZero can't explain why it made the moves it did
either. But then the same was true for Einstein. People are always asking
geniuses how they can do what they do but they can never give satisfactory
answers because they don't know they just do it. If they did know and could
explain it we'd all be geniuses just like them.

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190114/d9fec695/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 19:35:51 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 11:35:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv1h99+ecRAy5prLx3iiEUCM66PyEsm5htouzZaCraK=mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1h99+ecRAy5prLx3iiEUCM66PyEsm5htouzZaCraK=mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQnjiWVdAmMoHKWcFPfL1E=TBkSTw=u-iXT6sg9CT4wXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:21 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
> People are always asking geniuses how they can do what they do but they can never give satisfactory answers because they don't know they just do it. If they did know and could explain it we'd all be geniuses just like them.

This is one of the advances I have noted, only in the past few
decades: more and more, those who have done well at some aspect of
thinking are beginning to explain how they do what they do, in formats
accessible to the masses - and critically, in formats accessible to
others who have done well at the same or similar aspect, and who can
comment on or correct elements of the explanations to make them more
correct and more accessible.

For instance, I once intuited that the ability to make more basic,
fundamental mental models of the world helped with understanding wide
ranges of things.  At first I thought it was just something I did, and
that for the general public to adapt said models would be an
educational technology revolution worthy of science fiction (in the
vein of sci-fi that boils down to, "imagine some miracle technology,
then explore its ramifications for the human condition/society/et
cetera").  So I wrote said science fiction: a spacefaring society
where multidisciplinary capability (such as learning basics of science
and critical thought that could be applied to any scientific field,
picking up details of biology/geology/physics/et cetera later on as
relevant to specific investigations, or more handwavium - in my work,
anyway - practices to study other fields broadly and quickly) was the
baseline education most people received, and the effects on society
when what today we would call "mastery" could be learned much more
quickly (both in enabling a much larger pool of experts as needed, and
the level of ability they would consider "mastery").  Now I'm seeing
that others are coming around to the same concepts in real life.

Learning how to learn is a thing these days.  In a sense, this is what
AI research is largely about.  I wonder, is it feasible to set an AI
to modeling and codifying the process of learning itself, with the end
result of educational packages for humans of ordinary intellect that
can give them the same or better tools as a typical K-BS education in
a much shorter timeframe?  ("K-BS" might not be the best label, but
given how many people are seeing college as necessary these days,
merely K-12 isn't cutting it.  If a package like this became standard,
people would then desire more education, meaning there would be calls
for even better packages, perhaps leading to something like the
Singularity but driven mainly by human intellect - in conjunction with
AI.)  In addition to the obvious application for children, there are
many adults who might directly benefit from such a package (including,
perhaps, graduates of such a package once much better packages come
out, assuming this becomes a self-reinforcing chain).

From atymes at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 20:03:00 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:03:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQnjiWVdAmMoHKWcFPfL1E=TBkSTw=u-iXT6sg9CT4wXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1h99+ecRAy5prLx3iiEUCM66PyEsm5htouzZaCraK=mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQnjiWVdAmMoHKWcFPfL1E=TBkSTw=u-iXT6sg9CT4wXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSUpSw-os1vOdRN17a_5X-YV=iBzQHo0vqV8Bdu+1L1VA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 11:35 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> such as learning basics of science
> and critical thought that could be applied to any scientific field,
> picking up details of biology/geology/physics/et cetera later on as
> relevant to specific investigations, or more handwavium - in my work,
> anyway - practices to study other fields broadly and quickly

To clarify this bit: what are the components of mastery, and how might
they be taught or automated?

"I've seen this before." - database lookup from fragmentary
information.  (One will most often not have the exact title of a work,
so the emphasis is on multiple ways to find the information based on
the limited data one will typically start with.)  Kind of like search
engines, but learning the field includes learning how to use search
engines specific to that field.  A database of scientific concepts is
not the same thing as a database of musical riffs, in the same sense
that a professor of science is not the same thing as an experienced
composer of music (although the two could be aspects of the same human
being).  The database would likely have to generate its own indexes
(and analyze existing entries as new types of indexes are introduced),
as humans who enter examples will most likely not think of every
possible connection when providing an example; this is unlikely to be
perfect, and learning to compensate for these imperfections (again:
learning how to use the field's search engines) would be part of
learning a field.

"If you want to do this thing, here's what you need to worry about."
or "Alright, I'm doing this?  Then to do it quickly, efficiently, and
(a much higher chance of) correctly, I start with X, Y, and Z." -
broadly applicable requirements planning for a field, augmented with
details (which can be looked up on the fly) for a specific project.
(Building a skyscraper is not the same as building a house, but many
of the processes are similar or near-identical, and the differences
could be well-documented if an expert construction manager cared to do
so.)

Specific motor functions and patterns of thought can be guided with
appropriate AR software, though one would need to get familiar with
that class of software (including being able to competently select
said software).  The class would likely differ by field (formulating
scientific experiments and composing music differing enough that their
software would feel different).

What other elements would be needed, to be said to truly master a
topic?  (Some would suggest the appearance of confidence, but there
are non-confident people who do quite well in a field, and there are
confident but incompetent types.)

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 14 21:48:03 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 15:48:03 -0600
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSUpSw-os1vOdRN17a_5X-YV=iBzQHo0vqV8Bdu+1L1VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEajc_sZJacR9VxvrMYRkMt6LUb-9RJ+N1B2U_Xkrv-moQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv1h99+ecRAy5prLx3iiEUCM66PyEsm5htouzZaCraK=mg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNQnjiWVdAmMoHKWcFPfL1E=TBkSTw=u-iXT6sg9CT4wXw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSUpSw-os1vOdRN17a_5X-YV=iBzQHo0vqV8Bdu+1L1VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZgQQ=K6Siq=MQ=Rt90oDOVAZaRNhzPTHt-qma6Vx8tCQ@mail.gmail.com>

To me, the whole point of college was learning how to learn.  I have had
people laugh at me when I could not answer a question.  I told them that I
did not want to make room for such as that in my head.  I can look it up
fast.  But the key is knowing what to do with it when you find it, and the
college courses should prepare you for that.  If a physical therapist does
not remember the name of a muscle, well, big deal - he/she knows what to do
with it if it is out of whack (just what does 'in whack' mean, anyhoo?).
'Get a feel for it' describes the process well.  Some students just don't
'get it' - they can memorize facts, which is a pretty worthless skill.

bill w

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 2:07 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 11:35 AM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> > such as learning basics of science
> > and critical thought that could be applied to any scientific field,
> > picking up details of biology/geology/physics/et cetera later on as
> > relevant to specific investigations, or more handwavium - in my work,
> > anyway - practices to study other fields broadly and quickly
>
> To clarify this bit: what are the components of mastery, and how might
> they be taught or automated?
>
> "I've seen this before." - database lookup from fragmentary
> information.  (One will most often not have the exact title of a work,
> so the emphasis is on multiple ways to find the information based on
> the limited data one will typically start with.)  Kind of like search
> engines, but learning the field includes learning how to use search
> engines specific to that field.  A database of scientific concepts is
> not the same thing as a database of musical riffs, in the same sense
> that a professor of science is not the same thing as an experienced
> composer of music (although the two could be aspects of the same human
> being).  The database would likely have to generate its own indexes
> (and analyze existing entries as new types of indexes are introduced),
> as humans who enter examples will most likely not think of every
> possible connection when providing an example; this is unlikely to be
> perfect, and learning to compensate for these imperfections (again:
> learning how to use the field's search engines) would be part of
> learning a field.
>
> "If you want to do this thing, here's what you need to worry about."
> or "Alright, I'm doing this?  Then to do it quickly, efficiently, and
> (a much higher chance of) correctly, I start with X, Y, and Z." -
> broadly applicable requirements planning for a field, augmented with
> details (which can be looked up on the fly) for a specific project.
> (Building a skyscraper is not the same as building a house, but many
> of the processes are similar or near-identical, and the differences
> could be well-documented if an expert construction manager cared to do
> so.)
>
> Specific motor functions and patterns of thought can be guided with
> appropriate AR software, though one would need to get familiar with
> that class of software (including being able to competently select
> said software).  The class would likely differ by field (formulating
> scientific experiments and composing music differing enough that their
> software would feel different).
>
> What other elements would be needed, to be said to truly master a
> topic?  (Some would suggest the appearance of confidence, but there
> are non-confident people who do quite well in a field, and there are
> confident but incompetent types.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190114/0e157490/attachment.html>

From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 09:43:53 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 01:43:53 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Hardware hacking
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB7FaD9qFb2MMc2JXnY8EP0jqwR7MTmBK6GEjeM3Sr4t4Q@mail.gmail.com>

I missed this when it came out and only ran into it today.  All I can
say is WOW.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies

Keith

From sparge at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 12:43:03 2019
From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 07:43:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Hardware hacking
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB7FaD9qFb2MMc2JXnY8EP0jqwR7MTmBK6GEjeM3Sr4t4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB7FaD9qFb2MMc2JXnY8EP0jqwR7MTmBK6GEjeM3Sr4t4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM5aL2edxEvvE61imgGDmK7bKXs=s-rOC7qeXUCR_4nPpub5YA@mail.gmail.com>

Two months later and this is still unconfirmed.

-Dave

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 4:49 AM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:

> I missed this when it came out and only ran into it today.  All I can
> say is WOW.
>
>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies
>
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/480fce6c/attachment.html>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jan 15 16:50:31 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 08:50:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
Message-ID: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>

Exi friends, 

 

I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly influenced by that association.

 

I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls) because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.  They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.

 

So? I might give a talk on the future of education.

 

Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?

 

Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!

 

spike

 

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/78bc5239/attachment-0001.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 17:14:02 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 11:14:02 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>

If by 'diversified curriculum' you mean one that addresses the aptitude
level of each student and fits them (notice use of plural to avoid he or
she - becoming popular) in slots where they can succeed, then that will be
fine. A student should have some direction to take as early as 9th grade or
maybe even before that.

Define the need for the basic classes:  those who will be shunted to
plumbing or car repair will not be taking algebra, unless elective.  Or
maybe one class to see how they do, but certainly not as a graduation
requirement for most students.  Question the need for multiple literature
classes (I think more grammar and vocabulary would do average people better
than MiddleMarch and Chaucer, much as I love literature).

I would do a bit of research on split classes, or whatever the jargon is
for them - tracts, maybe.  I would find out if the only reason they are not
done is simply the need for more teachers.  My high school teacher friend
says that people who are trained for the upper and the lower levels are
nearly absent.  Just putting a very bright student on a computer and
telling them to go to an advanced class online is taking them away from
teacher/student relationships.

You might consider looking at research trying to divine what jobs are going
to be popular and which are disappearing.

Include a lot of testing and counseling.  We have to know who and what they
are before we can decide what to do with them.  Preferably do this around
the 7th grade.  Aptitude and achievement tests for all.

Include a lot of research on results of various special programs put in
experimentally.

I may have more later.  But what a great honor!  Just who do you know?

bill w

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:55 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> Exi friends,
>
>
>
> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I
> have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even
> if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have
> been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly
> influenced by that association.
>
>
>
> I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls) because
> that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.  They
> want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
>
>
>
> So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
>
>
>
> Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you want
> to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for several
> weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a
> techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion
> is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified
> curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
>
>
>
> Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/d2a32b99/attachment.html>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jan 15 17:39:42 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 09:39:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] ideas for ted

 

 

?

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:55 AM <spike at rainier66.com <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> > wrote:

I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it?.Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!  spike

 

Bill W wrote:

 

>?If by 'diversified curriculum' you mean one that addresses the aptitude level of each student and fits them (notice use of plural to avoid he or she - becoming popular) ?

 

Make ya crazy, doesn?t it?  Does me: English has given up proper plurality in exchange for a ready-made genderless pronoun.  It is absurd that English never developed a universal genderless singular pronoun, so we are stuck with the awkward ?he or she? and ?his or her? oh mercy, so we borrowed a genderless term but? that one has traditionally been specifically plural.  Now the terms ?they? and ?their? are being treated as ambiguous gender ambiguous plurality.  In my limited mind, these terms are specifically plurals.  Daaaaaaaaam!  It?s just ugly!  We need a better universal genderless singular!  Suggest e for ?he or she? and h for ?his or her.?

 

OK end rant, sheesh.  For now.

 

>?Aptitude and achievement tests for all?

 

Cool ja.

  

>?Include a lot of research on results of various special programs put in experimentally?

 

Cool ja.

 

 

>?  But what a great honor!

 

It is, ja.

 

>?Just who do you know?  bill w

 

My own son.  He scored not just off the charts but waaaaaaay the hell off the charts, particularly in math.  He took a standardized test last year in math and scored way up at the high end of the 99th percentile, if compared to 11th graders, but he was in 6th grade at the time.  Then he did it twice more since then.  The school people want to know how he did that, and how I did that.  So? I am going to tell them.  Why not?

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/664b3e6c/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 18:05:53 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 12:05:53 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZL-g92ScFRNi-8oK8h3dWiGCZevp7v-nZptE5sBu0VXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Using yourself and your son as an example:  how much did it help him to
have you there?

'They' was used as a singular by Shakespeare, so why not?  I have always
advocated using 'he/she/it', not to be said fast.

One more thing:  are you going to pitch educational changes as the best for
the best, the average, the lowest, or for everyone?  Ideally, all of the
above, but perhaps not the same changes for each.
If you create tracks, how many?  Same schools or separate schools (a lot of
flak if you have slow schools)?

Hats off to your son.  Remembering my dad and how he loved hats, it's kind
of a shame to see them gone forever.  They do, however, become a nuisance
when you have to take them off.  I doubt we are going to go back to the hat
check.

bill w

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:44 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ideas for ted
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:55 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it?.Help
> me Exi-wan Kenobi!  spike
>
>
>
> Bill W wrote:
>
>
>
> >?If by 'diversified curriculum' you mean one that addresses the aptitude
> level of each student and fits them (notice use of plural to avoid he or
> she - becoming popular) ?
>
>
>
> Make ya crazy, doesn?t it?  Does me: English has given up proper plurality
> in exchange for a ready-made genderless pronoun.  It is absurd that English
> never developed a universal genderless singular pronoun, so we are stuck
> with the awkward ?he or she? and ?his or her? oh mercy, so we borrowed a
> genderless term but? that one has traditionally been specifically plural.
> Now the terms ?they? and ?their? are being treated as ambiguous gender
> ambiguous plurality.  In my limited mind, these terms are specifically
> plurals.  Daaaaaaaaam!  It?s just ugly!  We need a better universal
> genderless singular!  Suggest e for ?he or she? and h for ?his or her.?
>
>
>
> OK end rant, sheesh.  For now.
>
>
>
> >?Aptitude and achievement tests for all?
>
>
>
> Cool ja.
>
>
>
> >?Include a lot of research on results of various special programs put in
> experimentally?
>
>
>
> Cool ja.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?  But what a great honor!
>
>
>
> It is, ja.
>
>
>
> >?Just who do you know?  bill w
>
>
>
> My own son.  He scored not just off the charts but waaaaaaay the hell off
> the charts, particularly in math.  He took a standardized test last year in
> math and scored way up at the high end of the 99th percentile, if
> compared to 11th graders, but he was in 6th grade at the time.  Then he
> did it twice more since then.  The school people want to know how he did
> that, and how I did that.  So? I am going to tell them.  Why not?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/074683f1/attachment.html>

From protokol2020 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 18:12:30 2019
From: protokol2020 at gmail.com (Tomaz Kristan)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 19:12:30 +0100
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALMrAFQns-qTSydMn3SQrT=2R9z9LpF-dGD6+4Uj9wDJUbsTHQ@mail.gmail.com>

One possibility to examine would be: "What's the use of learning when you
can just think of oxygen and it's like googling it with your mind. Only
much, much better structured and compatible with your knowledge
previously scanned and refind many times."

Or this would be called learning in the future.

Just my 3 cents.

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 6:45 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ideas for ted
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 10:55 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it?.Help
> me Exi-wan Kenobi!  spike
>
>
>
> Bill W wrote:
>
>
>
> >?If by 'diversified curriculum' you mean one that addresses the aptitude
> level of each student and fits them (notice use of plural to avoid he or
> she - becoming popular) ?
>
>
>
> Make ya crazy, doesn?t it?  Does me: English has given up proper plurality
> in exchange for a ready-made genderless pronoun.  It is absurd that English
> never developed a universal genderless singular pronoun, so we are stuck
> with the awkward ?he or she? and ?his or her? oh mercy, so we borrowed a
> genderless term but? that one has traditionally been specifically plural.
> Now the terms ?they? and ?their? are being treated as ambiguous gender
> ambiguous plurality.  In my limited mind, these terms are specifically
> plurals.  Daaaaaaaaam!  It?s just ugly!  We need a better universal
> genderless singular!  Suggest e for ?he or she? and h for ?his or her.?
>
>
>
> OK end rant, sheesh.  For now.
>
>
>
> >?Aptitude and achievement tests for all?
>
>
>
> Cool ja.
>
>
>
> >?Include a lot of research on results of various special programs put in
> experimentally?
>
>
>
> Cool ja.
>
>
>
>
>
> >?  But what a great honor!
>
>
>
> It is, ja.
>
>
>
> >?Just who do you know?  bill w
>
>
>
> My own son.  He scored not just off the charts but waaaaaaay the hell off
> the charts, particularly in math.  He took a standardized test last year in
> math and scored way up at the high end of the 99th percentile, if
> compared to 11th graders, but he was in 6th grade at the time.  Then he
> did it twice more since then.  The school people want to know how he did
> that, and how I did that.  So? I am going to tell them.  Why not?
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>


-- 
https://protokol2020.wordpress.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/213cb4ee/attachment.html>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jan 15 18:29:37 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 10:29:37 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZL-g92ScFRNi-8oK8h3dWiGCZevp7v-nZptE5sBu0VXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEa+RvgEaAe3BaSw+au=Wxu2dkgPoAUMJBE4t0cB2P_phQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <004a01d4acf9$4ce50a60$e6af1f20$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEZL-g92ScFRNi-8oK8h3dWiGCZevp7v-nZptE5sBu0VXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <001701d4ad00$461232b0$d2369810$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] ideas for ted

 

>?Using yourself and your son as an example:  how much did it help him to have you there?

 

Hard to say.  I am still pondering that.

 

'They' was used as a singular by Shakespeare?

 

Ah Shakespeare, I have heard of them.  I think they?like? wrote stuff, a long time ago.

 

Oy.  To me, plurality is more important than gender.

 

>?  I have always advocated using 'he/she/it', not to be said fast.

 

No Bill, ain?t going there.  It?s just as clumsy and requires the / key, which isn?t used much and slows a prole when they is trying to type a message.

 

>?One more thing:  are you going to pitch educational changes as the best for the best, the average, the lowest, or for everyone?

 

Don?t yet know.  That?s why I am asking youse for advice.  Notice how you is ambiguous plurality, but English dialects have tried to patch it, as if it is a mistake.  How many examples can we think of?  You guys, youse, youse guys, y?all (which ironically became ambiguous plurality over time, being borrowed down from specific plural rather than borrowed up from singular (the specific plural is ?all yall? (oy freaking vey.)))  How many more?

 

?  Ideally, all of the above, but perhaps not the same changes for each.

If you create tracks, how many?  Same schools or separate schools (a lot of flak if you have slow schools)?

 

I don?t know.  I am an engineer, not an educator.  But? Sal Khan wasn?t an educator either, he was a stock fund manager.  He brought a fresh perspective to the biz.

 

>?Hats off to your son.  ?  I doubt we are going to go back to the hat check.  bill w

 

Ja I never did get the whole hat thing.  It seems just wrong to me.

 

spike 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/ba7dfe3c/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 18:32:49 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 13:32:49 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2xtg5no4ysvHXuOGD7=jt_y5U1D_Bki60kQzaCpWq23w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:


> *> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it. *
>

Wow that's great Spike, congratulations


> > *My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly
> diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?*
>

I don't want to sound like a old fashioned fuddy duddy but I think there is
something to be said for emphasising the 3 R's in grade school, you've got
to learn how to learn and you can't do that if you can't read. By High
School you should know how to read and so can start to study other things,
but 70% never take a physics course and things don't improve much in
college. This video was made of Harvard students at their graduation
ceremony, I'm sure they could tell you a lot about the Canterbury Tales or
18th century Napoleonic battle tactics but they gave the WRONG explanation
why seasons exist, something about reality that directly affects every
human on the planet and has been well understood for centuries. And
remember this is Harvard!

Harvard Graduates Can't Explain Seasons
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0wk4qG2mIg>

Also 27% of the general population of the USA and 17% of college graduates
think the sun goes around the Earth.   41% of college graduates think atoms
are smaller than electrons and 48% think Lasers work by focusing sound
waves.

Science Questions That Stumped College Grads
<https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/10-easy-science-questions-that-stumped-college-grads/all/>


> > *Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!*
>

May the Force be with you!

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/8b8d8b06/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 21:17:46 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 15:17:46 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv2xtg5no4ysvHXuOGD7=jt_y5U1D_Bki60kQzaCpWq23w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2xtg5no4ysvHXuOGD7=jt_y5U1D_Bki60kQzaCpWq23w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYD5PMAoXa-pL8gNBct=iFdwSFncpJ-=vY79M_2LzqBtg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, John, why should a college grad know physics?  Seasons?  Who cares -
can look it up, although tilt of the Earth may be too much to handle.  The
average college grad is not who we are looking to to do physics, although a
few things,like atoms, could be taught in, say, 3rd grade.

Anyhow, one doesn't go to Harvard to learn things, except in grad school.
One goes there to join clubs and meet people and get cool jobs later.

But it is an important point:  just how much of each subject should be
taught, and when, and to whom?  I wonder how many accidents, some fatal,
could have been avoided by one simple course in home ec?  How many giant
debts could be avoided by teaching one little course in how to deal with
money?  (just showing people a chart explaining compound interest puts
people in absolute awe - I did this and I know).  Yeah, you could find all
this and much more on Youtube, but will they look?  Remember the
correlation between intellectual ability and confidence in one's facts?
(yeah, this has a name but I can never remember it - Krauss something?)

bill w

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 12:46 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>> *> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it. *
>>
>
> Wow that's great Spike, congratulations
>
>
>> > *My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly
>> diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?*
>>
>
> I don't want to sound like a old fashioned fuddy duddy but I think there
> is something to be said for emphasising the 3 R's in grade school, you've
> got to learn how to learn and you can't do that if you can't read. By High
> School you should know how to read and so can start to study other things,
> but 70% never take a physics course and things don't improve much in
> college. This video was made of Harvard students at their graduation
> ceremony, I'm sure they could tell you a lot about the Canterbury Tales or
> 18th century Napoleonic battle tactics but they gave the WRONG explanation
> why seasons exist, something about reality that directly affects every
> human on the planet and has been well understood for centuries. And
> remember this is Harvard!
>
> Harvard Graduates Can't Explain Seasons
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0wk4qG2mIg>
>
> Also 27% of the general population of the USA and 17% of college graduates
> think the sun goes around the Earth.   41% of college graduates think atoms
> are smaller than electrons and 48% think Lasers work by focusing sound
> waves.
>
> Science Questions That Stumped College Grads
> <https://www.iflscience.com/editors-blog/10-easy-science-questions-that-stumped-college-grads/all/>
>
>
>> > *Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!*
>>
>
> May the Force be with you!
>
>  John K Clark
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/26ad32fe/attachment.html>

From msd001 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 15 23:49:57 2019
From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 18:49:57 -0500
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYD5PMAoXa-pL8gNBct=iFdwSFncpJ-=vY79M_2LzqBtg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CAJPayv2xtg5no4ysvHXuOGD7=jt_y5U1D_Bki60kQzaCpWq23w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEYD5PMAoXa-pL8gNBct=iFdwSFncpJ-=vY79M_2LzqBtg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJFdbLoUpOVOCxtN9KjcL-SdTEsgD4YV9JJdP4KdoVeRd+hCw@mail.gmail.com>

Borrowing from MMORPG: raiding party for scholastic projects.
Also online gaming: realtime "mtachmaking" for contest style matches
(rather than spike's usual goto for the term)

Both are examples of ad-hoc dynamic groups to create and/or solve
challenges.

My cohort need not be neighborhood children within +/- half-a-year of age.
Spike's kid tested at +5 grades, but that isn't feasible with today's
physical schooling requirements.   Online though, nobody is limited by
geography, age, or gender.  Why aren't we learning how to best embrace this
diversity?

I don't complain that my boss at work is younger than me.   His strengths
are different from mine and I don't want to become what he is to my
employer.   We have a great relationship.   I mentor both new hires and
journeyman programmers.   Why isn't our education system fostering this
habit from grade one?

As we move into an AI-mediated world,  our ability to organize work in
emergent on-demand concerts will determine employability- even as
employment is measured in participation in the collective attention to the
development of an idea.

I would love to see someone further this concept to both corroborate my own
thinking and to bring us closer to realizing a potential I haven't yet
imagined.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190115/27294d92/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jan 16 21:51:35 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 13:51:35 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
Message-ID: <0711c161e5a45e523a3081862ab1b828.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Bill Wallace wrote:


> Stuart, I hope that creativity is not limited to the arts.  Why shouldn't
>  an AI create math?

You got me there, Bill. Math, or pretty much any discipline really, can be
raised to an art form by those who have mastered it. I could argue that
mathematical realists, as opposed to mathematical constructivists, contend
that that mathematical theorems are objectively real and are therefore
discovered rather than created.

But I seem to recalling reading that Rodin, or one of the other great
sculptors, said, and I am paraphrasing here, that the secret to their
success was that at the outset they could see the statues trapped within
the block of marble and they simply "released" the shapes already within
so that everyone else could see it too.

> 'Physiologizing' is what we in psych call reducing everything to actions
> in the body/brain.  So you know that a certain part of the amygdala
> controls aggression.  So what?  Destroy it, stimulate it, and you get
> predictable results.  But how does that relate to what is happening in a
> complete body and brain?  The only answer I can think of that has any use
> at all might be to develop drugs that act on the brain part.  Do we really
> want our lives to be determined by a host of drugs we take in to activate
> or inhibit brain functions?

A significant portion of people already take a host of drugs, either
self-medicated or prescribed for recreation or some chronic condition or
another. How is a drug that affects the brain any worse than a shot of
whiskey or a drug that controls blood pressure?

> In extreme cases, yes, that could be
> appropriate, such as in a person who goes into rages and loses control.
> That person could face a
> decision:  go on the drug or go to jail.  But in ordinary life?  Not for
> me.  Not unless functions are lost or become limited - Cialis comes to
> mind!  (I am turning 77).

Societal norms have shifted throughout history. Sometimes a past
generation's extremes become a future generation's norm. If population
densities start to approach one person per square meter, we might need to
go on some equivalent to Huxley's Soma to keep from killing each other.

If you still find erections useful at 77 then my hat's off to you, sir. :-)

> As for consciousness, we can find the brain parts that control it and
> thus control those brain parts.  But as for defining and copying what
> those parts do - I have serious doubts.

The complexity of consciousness is such a beast that we might have better
luck just copying those parts without trying to define their function.
Also consciousness might be a function of both body and environment rather
than simply body. Maybe consciousness is less self-contained in the
brain/body and more dependent on environmental inputs than we think it is.


Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 22:02:48 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 14:02:48 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>

So, first question: how does one score such an invite?  :P

Related question: how do you know that satellite controls aren't why
they invited you?  (I mean, yeah, likely guess they're more interested
in education, but let's make sure of your audience.)

You might do well to include a brief overview of how we got to our
current state -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system and so on.
The modern scholastic system seems to be a result of the Industrial
Revolution.  Most critically, note the things it was intended to solve
that are still necessary today:
* Yes, literally everyone needs to know how to communicate well.  In
English-speaking regions such as the US, this means classes in
English.
* Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic arithmetic.  (Maybe or
maybe not higher math, but certainly at least through fractions and
percentages, so as to theoretically be able to calculate how much tax
they owe - even if many turn that over to accountants, automated or
otherwise, they still need to be able to verify e.g. sales taxes on
their dinner bills.)
* Yes, literally everyone needs basic literacy.  These days, everyone
needs basic computer skills as well, but that doesn't mean they don't
need to read and write (just the opposite).
* Yes, literally everyone needs to know the basics of science: what is
a "theory", what is a "hypothesis", and how to conduct experiments to
find out stuff about the world.  (Just look at the depressed economy
and constant low-level humanitarian crises in areas of the US where
this knowledge is seen as contradictory to the dominant religion and
therefore suppressed.)
* Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic civics: what is
"voting", what fair government looks like, how to be fair should one
find oneself in a position of power, and so on.  (Look at areas of the
world - such as Iraq - where this knowledge is generally missing from
the population.  We may be critical of our government, but their
leaders literally have no idea of how to run a non-tribal government,
resulting in blatant corruption and miscarriages of justice.  Over
here, since anyone can - in theory - run for elected office, everyone
else needs to be sure that anyone who does run probably knows at least
the basics of what good government even is.)

And so on.  Even with some diversity allowed, there are common basics
that everyone must be taught, and that must be covered by every
alternative that some child might be exposed to.

After that, then go on to explore where education might go.  I
mentioned recently a possibility of more and more fundamental mental
models, aided by technology to look up details as needed, that let
those who learn them handle an ever-broader range of topics from the
same educational effort (the same average number of years spent in
school).

If you want to talk diversity in education, you might consider
touching on adapting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_customization
to education.  Note especially the central concept: using technology
(not just human instinct, which tends to fail when it is the sole
instrument used for this, even when the teachers involved are unaware
they are doing it) to discover the individual needs and strengths, and
then adapt or invent a curriculum that gets all the requested topics
to the student in ways that particular student can master quickly.
(You might put in a slide on detecting when this is happening vs. when
people are just using their own guesswork, so as to shut down
possibly-well-intentioned but short-changing efforts that are doomed
to fail before they can take many students with them.  If you do,
another slide on the difference between "untested guesswork" and
"rigorously tested technology" might be useful too.)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> Exi friends,
>
>
>
> I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly influenced by that association.
>
>
>
> I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls) because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.  They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
>
>
>
> So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
>
>
>
> Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
>
>
>
> Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 16 22:32:15 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 16:32:15 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZ=57T00MzQJFUk_f0xkLNzY7WPoYn_-iVH6qMPu5y4-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Recalling my GRE test long long ago - there were many charts to interpret
and I found out when teaching statistics that Ss have a lot of trouble
learning to do so.  Interaction effects also stumped many, although I don't
know how far you want to go with basic statistics in K - 12 grades.

Suggested basic statistics:  central tendency, variability, correlation,
simple experiment design, charts of all kinds (and how to lie all of
these), the idea of confounding.  Normal distribution.  These only for the
science track?  Teaching these to subaverage Ss is impossible.

While learning how to do an experiment is a good idea, as Adrian suggests,
that can go very far indeed and I wonder just how much it is worth it below
the college level.

I also want to add geography.  Lack of knowledge of this in polls is
embarrassing, with what I have seen.  And leave room for health physical
education  - can obesity be lowered?

My high school teacher friend says that one of the big troubles is the
administration assuming that everybody can learn everything.

The main trouble for you as I see it, is paring down to the time limit.
Emphasize ideas rather than details.

bill w

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:15 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> So, first question: how does one score such an invite?  :P
>
> Related question: how do you know that satellite controls aren't why
> they invited you?  (I mean, yeah, likely guess they're more interested
> in education, but let's make sure of your audience.)
>
> You might do well to include a brief overview of how we got to our
> current state -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system and so on.
> The modern scholastic system seems to be a result of the Industrial
> Revolution.  Most critically, note the things it was intended to solve
> that are still necessary today:
> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know how to communicate well.  In
> English-speaking regions such as the US, this means classes in
> English.
> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic arithmetic.  (Maybe or
> maybe not higher math, but certainly at least through fractions and
> percentages, so as to theoretically be able to calculate how much tax
> they owe - even if many turn that over to accountants, automated or
> otherwise, they still need to be able to verify e.g. sales taxes on
> their dinner bills.)
> * Yes, literally everyone needs basic literacy.  These days, everyone
> needs basic computer skills as well, but that doesn't mean they don't
> need to read and write (just the opposite).
> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know the basics of science: what is
> a "theory", what is a "hypothesis", and how to conduct experiments to
> find out stuff about the world.  (Just look at the depressed economy
> and constant low-level humanitarian crises in areas of the US where
> this knowledge is seen as contradictory to the dominant religion and
> therefore suppressed.)
> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic civics: what is
> "voting", what fair government looks like, how to be fair should one
> find oneself in a position of power, and so on.  (Look at areas of the
> world - such as Iraq - where this knowledge is generally missing from
> the population.  We may be critical of our government, but their
> leaders literally have no idea of how to run a non-tribal government,
> resulting in blatant corruption and miscarriages of justice.  Over
> here, since anyone can - in theory - run for elected office, everyone
> else needs to be sure that anyone who does run probably knows at least
> the basics of what good government even is.)
>
> And so on.  Even with some diversity allowed, there are common basics
> that everyone must be taught, and that must be covered by every
> alternative that some child might be exposed to.
>
> After that, then go on to explore where education might go.  I
> mentioned recently a possibility of more and more fundamental mental
> models, aided by technology to look up details as needed, that let
> those who learn them handle an ever-broader range of topics from the
> same educational effort (the same average number of years spent in
> school).
>
> If you want to talk diversity in education, you might consider
> touching on adapting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_customization
> to education.  Note especially the central concept: using technology
> (not just human instinct, which tends to fail when it is the sole
> instrument used for this, even when the teachers involved are unaware
> they are doing it) to discover the individual needs and strengths, and
> then adapt or invent a curriculum that gets all the requested topics
> to the student in ways that particular student can master quickly.
> (You might put in a slide on detecting when this is happening vs. when
> people are just using their own guesswork, so as to shut down
> possibly-well-intentioned but short-changing efforts that are doomed
> to fail before they can take many students with them.  If you do,
> another slide on the difference between "untested guesswork" and
> "rigorously tested technology" might be useful too.)
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >
> > Exi friends,
> >
> >
> >
> > I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I
> have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even
> if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have
> been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly
> influenced by that association.
> >
> >
> >
> > I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls)
> because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.
> They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
> >
> >
> >
> > So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you
> want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for
> several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a
> techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion
> is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified
> curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
> >
> >
> >
> > Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
> >
> >
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190116/b71d1a7a/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 00:20:42 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 16:20:42 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZ=57T00MzQJFUk_f0xkLNzY7WPoYn_-iVH6qMPu5y4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ=57T00MzQJFUk_f0xkLNzY7WPoYn_-iVH6qMPu5y4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNSkDmApxf1NxtZ=N0aTxNONayMLNJt3cVCccSrH4uWpxA@mail.gmail.com>

Geography is a good example.  When do people in the US actually need
to know, e.g., where Russia is, as opposed to and distinct from being
able to look it up when it becomes relevant?

The answer is not "always".  "Pride" and the like are completely
insufficient justifications.  The actual location of Russia is, in
fact, irrelevant to the daily lives of most people in the US.

Now, they should know to look it up before acting on or making any
decisions based on that knowledge.  But most of the "pop quiz"
interviews I've seen make the assumption that this is one of the
things that people should already have memorized, with justifications
that don't hold water.  Sure, it's a major country.  Sure, it's
influencing the world.  But where it actually is, is a detail that is
often not actually relevant to people far removed from it.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Recalling my GRE test long long ago - there were many charts to interpret and I found out when teaching statistics that Ss have a lot of trouble learning to do so.  Interaction effects also stumped many, although I don't know how far you want to go with basic statistics in K - 12 grades.
>
> Suggested basic statistics:  central tendency, variability, correlation, simple experiment design, charts of all kinds (and how to lie all of these), the idea of confounding.  Normal distribution.  These only for the science track?  Teaching these to subaverage Ss is impossible.
>
> While learning how to do an experiment is a good idea, as Adrian suggests, that can go very far indeed and I wonder just how much it is worth it below the college level.
>
> I also want to add geography.  Lack of knowledge of this in polls is embarrassing, with what I have seen.  And leave room for health physical education  - can obesity be lowered?
>
> My high school teacher friend says that one of the big troubles is the administration assuming that everybody can learn everything.
>
> The main trouble for you as I see it, is paring down to the time limit.  Emphasize ideas rather than details.
>
> bill w
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:15 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So, first question: how does one score such an invite?  :P
>>
>> Related question: how do you know that satellite controls aren't why
>> they invited you?  (I mean, yeah, likely guess they're more interested
>> in education, but let's make sure of your audience.)
>>
>> You might do well to include a brief overview of how we got to our
>> current state -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system and so on.
>> The modern scholastic system seems to be a result of the Industrial
>> Revolution.  Most critically, note the things it was intended to solve
>> that are still necessary today:
>> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know how to communicate well.  In
>> English-speaking regions such as the US, this means classes in
>> English.
>> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic arithmetic.  (Maybe or
>> maybe not higher math, but certainly at least through fractions and
>> percentages, so as to theoretically be able to calculate how much tax
>> they owe - even if many turn that over to accountants, automated or
>> otherwise, they still need to be able to verify e.g. sales taxes on
>> their dinner bills.)
>> * Yes, literally everyone needs basic literacy.  These days, everyone
>> needs basic computer skills as well, but that doesn't mean they don't
>> need to read and write (just the opposite).
>> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know the basics of science: what is
>> a "theory", what is a "hypothesis", and how to conduct experiments to
>> find out stuff about the world.  (Just look at the depressed economy
>> and constant low-level humanitarian crises in areas of the US where
>> this knowledge is seen as contradictory to the dominant religion and
>> therefore suppressed.)
>> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic civics: what is
>> "voting", what fair government looks like, how to be fair should one
>> find oneself in a position of power, and so on.  (Look at areas of the
>> world - such as Iraq - where this knowledge is generally missing from
>> the population.  We may be critical of our government, but their
>> leaders literally have no idea of how to run a non-tribal government,
>> resulting in blatant corruption and miscarriages of justice.  Over
>> here, since anyone can - in theory - run for elected office, everyone
>> else needs to be sure that anyone who does run probably knows at least
>> the basics of what good government even is.)
>>
>> And so on.  Even with some diversity allowed, there are common basics
>> that everyone must be taught, and that must be covered by every
>> alternative that some child might be exposed to.
>>
>> After that, then go on to explore where education might go.  I
>> mentioned recently a possibility of more and more fundamental mental
>> models, aided by technology to look up details as needed, that let
>> those who learn them handle an ever-broader range of topics from the
>> same educational effort (the same average number of years spent in
>> school).
>>
>> If you want to talk diversity in education, you might consider
>> touching on adapting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_customization
>> to education.  Note especially the central concept: using technology
>> (not just human instinct, which tends to fail when it is the sole
>> instrument used for this, even when the teachers involved are unaware
>> they are doing it) to discover the individual needs and strengths, and
>> then adapt or invent a curriculum that gets all the requested topics
>> to the student in ways that particular student can master quickly.
>> (You might put in a slide on detecting when this is happening vs. when
>> people are just using their own guesswork, so as to shut down
>> possibly-well-intentioned but short-changing efforts that are doomed
>> to fail before they can take many students with them.  If you do,
>> another slide on the difference between "untested guesswork" and
>> "rigorously tested technology" might be useful too.)
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Exi friends,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly influenced by that association.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls) because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.  They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 01:05:20 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 19:05:20 -0600
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNSkDmApxf1NxtZ=N0aTxNONayMLNJt3cVCccSrH4uWpxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ=57T00MzQJFUk_f0xkLNzY7WPoYn_-iVH6qMPu5y4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSkDmApxf1NxtZ=N0aTxNONayMLNJt3cVCccSrH4uWpxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEZXk_-wudFmygbnM7g8Dqu_hc9bZzZxaXTo53=3Do=A+A@mail.gmail.com>

All I can say to ADrian's geography response is that I expect educated
people to know just a few geography things - things it would take a day or
two at the most, to teach.

But one could go even further than Adrian - nobody needs to know where
Russia is, even if they are going there.  Just buy a ticket and they will
take you there, possibly with your luggage.

Other things that are irrelevant:  which way the Earth is spinning; where
the sun is; what is a gene?; or a neuron or an electron or a microbe or a
calorie or a stock or a bond or ............;  do English and literature
really need to be taught?  Nah.  Ditto history.  Especially history.  Ditto
algebra, geometry.  Who uses these things?  Very very few.  Most people get
along just fine with a 4th grade level of English - after all, that's what
it is on TV.  So, just enough English to be able to deal with 4th grade
speech and reading.  Some of us achieved this at the end of the 1st grade -
so no more English for us!

Things we really really need to know:  how to play games and text and take
selfies; which Hollywood star sleeps around the most; what movie should I
see next?  Who is the cutest girl/boy in the 11th grade?  What's the best
makeup?  Are Dockers still in style?  What fast food place has the best
double cheeseburger? These are things that come up all the time in many
people's lives.  That is, if you want to know what is relevant to most
people, then these should be taught in school (and watch attendance and
grades grow)

If all we really need to know is which way to the welfare office, then all
we need to know is which way to the liquor store and the drug dealer.

Ergo - after about the 4th grade, about 2/3 of the kids could be dismissed
with no further education.
They would not use any more of it in their daily lives, right?  Not unless
they wanted to understand the world they were living in and the people in
it.  And many wouldn't care to know those things.  Not relevant.

bill w

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 6:25 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:

> Geography is a good example.  When do people in the US actually need
> to know, e.g., where Russia is, as opposed to and distinct from being
> able to look it up when it becomes relevant?
>
> The answer is not "always".  "Pride" and the like are completely
> insufficient justifications.  The actual location of Russia is, in
> fact, irrelevant to the daily lives of most people in the US.
>
> Now, they should know to look it up before acting on or making any
> decisions based on that knowledge.  But most of the "pop quiz"
> interviews I've seen make the assumption that this is one of the
> things that people should already have memorized, with justifications
> that don't hold water.  Sure, it's a major country.  Sure, it's
> influencing the world.  But where it actually is, is a detail that is
> often not actually relevant to people far removed from it.
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace
> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Recalling my GRE test long long ago - there were many charts to
> interpret and I found out when teaching statistics that Ss have a lot of
> trouble learning to do so.  Interaction effects also stumped many, although
> I don't know how far you want to go with basic statistics in K - 12 grades.
> >
> > Suggested basic statistics:  central tendency, variability, correlation,
> simple experiment design, charts of all kinds (and how to lie all of
> these), the idea of confounding.  Normal distribution.  These only for the
> science track?  Teaching these to subaverage Ss is impossible.
> >
> > While learning how to do an experiment is a good idea, as Adrian
> suggests, that can go very far indeed and I wonder just how much it is
> worth it below the college level.
> >
> > I also want to add geography.  Lack of knowledge of this in polls is
> embarrassing, with what I have seen.  And leave room for health physical
> education  - can obesity be lowered?
> >
> > My high school teacher friend says that one of the big troubles is the
> administration assuming that everybody can learn everything.
> >
> > The main trouble for you as I see it, is paring down to the time limit.
> Emphasize ideas rather than details.
> >
> > bill w
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:15 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> So, first question: how does one score such an invite?  :P
> >>
> >> Related question: how do you know that satellite controls aren't why
> >> they invited you?  (I mean, yeah, likely guess they're more interested
> >> in education, but let's make sure of your audience.)
> >>
> >> You might do well to include a brief overview of how we got to our
> >> current state -
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system and so on.
> >> The modern scholastic system seems to be a result of the Industrial
> >> Revolution.  Most critically, note the things it was intended to solve
> >> that are still necessary today:
> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know how to communicate well.  In
> >> English-speaking regions such as the US, this means classes in
> >> English.
> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic arithmetic.  (Maybe or
> >> maybe not higher math, but certainly at least through fractions and
> >> percentages, so as to theoretically be able to calculate how much tax
> >> they owe - even if many turn that over to accountants, automated or
> >> otherwise, they still need to be able to verify e.g. sales taxes on
> >> their dinner bills.)
> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs basic literacy.  These days, everyone
> >> needs basic computer skills as well, but that doesn't mean they don't
> >> need to read and write (just the opposite).
> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know the basics of science: what is
> >> a "theory", what is a "hypothesis", and how to conduct experiments to
> >> find out stuff about the world.  (Just look at the depressed economy
> >> and constant low-level humanitarian crises in areas of the US where
> >> this knowledge is seen as contradictory to the dominant religion and
> >> therefore suppressed.)
> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic civics: what is
> >> "voting", what fair government looks like, how to be fair should one
> >> find oneself in a position of power, and so on.  (Look at areas of the
> >> world - such as Iraq - where this knowledge is generally missing from
> >> the population.  We may be critical of our government, but their
> >> leaders literally have no idea of how to run a non-tribal government,
> >> resulting in blatant corruption and miscarriages of justice.  Over
> >> here, since anyone can - in theory - run for elected office, everyone
> >> else needs to be sure that anyone who does run probably knows at least
> >> the basics of what good government even is.)
> >>
> >> And so on.  Even with some diversity allowed, there are common basics
> >> that everyone must be taught, and that must be covered by every
> >> alternative that some child might be exposed to.
> >>
> >> After that, then go on to explore where education might go.  I
> >> mentioned recently a possibility of more and more fundamental mental
> >> models, aided by technology to look up details as needed, that let
> >> those who learn them handle an ever-broader range of topics from the
> >> same educational effort (the same average number of years spent in
> >> school).
> >>
> >> If you want to talk diversity in education, you might consider
> >> touching on adapting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_customization
> >> to education.  Note especially the central concept: using technology
> >> (not just human instinct, which tends to fail when it is the sole
> >> instrument used for this, even when the teachers involved are unaware
> >> they are doing it) to discover the individual needs and strengths, and
> >> then adapt or invent a curriculum that gets all the requested topics
> >> to the student in ways that particular student can master quickly.
> >> (You might put in a slide on detecting when this is happening vs. when
> >> people are just using their own guesswork, so as to shut down
> >> possibly-well-intentioned but short-changing efforts that are doomed
> >> to fail before they can take many students with them.  If you do,
> >> another slide on the difference between "untested guesswork" and
> >> "rigorously tested technology" might be useful too.)
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Exi friends,
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on
> it.  I have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the
> chatter even if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and
> attitudes have been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be
> greatly influenced by that association.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls)
> because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.
> They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you
> want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for
> several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a
> techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion
> is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified
> curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > spike
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > extropy-chat mailing list
> >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190116/adb1d63a/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jan 17 01:19:40 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:19:40 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
Message-ID: <96855910dcba3a7732d6892a0d48de72.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Spike wrote:

> Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you
> want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for
> several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of
> a techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My
> notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly
> diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?

In the current paradigm, schools fulfill several needs, not in any
particular order:

1. A place to pass on valuable skills and knowledge.

2. A place that allows social development and self discovery i.e. a place
to learn "playground politics", sort out hierarchies, learn teamwork, and
leadership, etc. Google "social learning theory" for details.

3. An often tax-subsidized managed day care facility for working parents
that gives their child "adult supervision" for most of traditional
business hours.

4. An institutional interface for the government to spy on, protect, and
indoctrinate youth. Google FERPA law, "mandatory reporting", Pledge of
Allegiance, etc. for details.

So maybe you could address how emerging technology will affect those
things in an era of school shootings.

I hope that helped. I have more specific ideas too, but it's your TED
talk, not mine. ;-) Congrats, BTW. :-)

Stuart LaForge



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jan 17 01:32:38 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 17:32:38 -0800
Subject: [ExI] ideas for ted
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEZXk_-wudFmygbnM7g8Dqu_hc9bZzZxaXTo53=3Do=A+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002601d4acf2$6dd78150$498683f0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQZ24o_Tz_owUEX1n1-mip_MC0n7VQQbqQ_Q6dg_uWyAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZ=57T00MzQJFUk_f0xkLNzY7WPoYn_-iVH6qMPu5y4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALAdGNSkDmApxf1NxtZ=N0aTxNONayMLNJt3cVCccSrH4uWpxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO+xQEZXk_-wudFmygbnM7g8Dqu_hc9bZzZxaXTo53=3Do=A+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ3cycFZsy6Boc+pFTMHHzw_tOQ068TU2Y-kMvDcqWKaw@mail.gmail.com>

> But one could go even further than Adrian

And that's where you pass out of reality.

People do need to know where Russia is if they will be interacting with it.

Calories are something people interact with every day.  So is English;
I stated a reason why it must be taught.

History - the broad patterns at least - are likewise often actually
used (to see what historical things one's current situation might
resemble, so as to try not to repeat history - or to try to repeat it,
if the outcome was something currently favored).

You give no reason for "which Hollywood star sleeps around the most",
among other things, to be what we really need to know.

I know, I know, you were probably just speaking in parody, hyperbole,
and exaggeration.  I wasn't.  It can be hard for people to tell the
difference sometimes.

On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 5:09 PM William Flynn Wallace
<foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All I can say to ADrian's geography response is that I expect educated people to know just a few geography things - things it would take a day or two at the most, to teach.
>
> But one could go even further than Adrian - nobody needs to know where Russia is, even if they are going there.  Just buy a ticket and they will take you there, possibly with your luggage.
>
> Other things that are irrelevant:  which way the Earth is spinning; where the sun is; what is a gene?; or a neuron or an electron or a microbe or a calorie or a stock or a bond or ............;  do English and literature really need to be taught?  Nah.  Ditto history.  Especially history.  Ditto algebra, geometry.  Who uses these things?  Very very few.  Most people get along just fine with a 4th grade level of English - after all, that's what it is on TV.  So, just enough English to be able to deal with 4th grade speech and reading.  Some of us achieved this at the end of the 1st grade - so no more English for us!
>
> Things we really really need to know:  how to play games and text and take selfies; which Hollywood star sleeps around the most; what movie should I see next?  Who is the cutest girl/boy in the 11th grade?  What's the best makeup?  Are Dockers still in style?  What fast food place has the best double cheeseburger? These are things that come up all the time in many people's lives.  That is, if you want to know what is relevant to most people, then these should be taught in school (and watch attendance and grades grow)
>
> If all we really need to know is which way to the welfare office, then all we need to know is which way to the liquor store and the drug dealer.
>
> Ergo - after about the 4th grade, about 2/3 of the kids could be dismissed with no further education.
> They would not use any more of it in their daily lives, right?  Not unless they wanted to understand the world they were living in and the people in it.  And many wouldn't care to know those things.  Not relevant.
>
> bill w
>
> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 6:25 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Geography is a good example.  When do people in the US actually need
>> to know, e.g., where Russia is, as opposed to and distinct from being
>> able to look it up when it becomes relevant?
>>
>> The answer is not "always".  "Pride" and the like are completely
>> insufficient justifications.  The actual location of Russia is, in
>> fact, irrelevant to the daily lives of most people in the US.
>>
>> Now, they should know to look it up before acting on or making any
>> decisions based on that knowledge.  But most of the "pop quiz"
>> interviews I've seen make the assumption that this is one of the
>> things that people should already have memorized, with justifications
>> that don't hold water.  Sure, it's a major country.  Sure, it's
>> influencing the world.  But where it actually is, is a detail that is
>> often not actually relevant to people far removed from it.
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace
>> <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Recalling my GRE test long long ago - there were many charts to interpret and I found out when teaching statistics that Ss have a lot of trouble learning to do so.  Interaction effects also stumped many, although I don't know how far you want to go with basic statistics in K - 12 grades.
>> >
>> > Suggested basic statistics:  central tendency, variability, correlation, simple experiment design, charts of all kinds (and how to lie all of these), the idea of confounding.  Normal distribution.  These only for the science track?  Teaching these to subaverage Ss is impossible.
>> >
>> > While learning how to do an experiment is a good idea, as Adrian suggests, that can go very far indeed and I wonder just how much it is worth it below the college level.
>> >
>> > I also want to add geography.  Lack of knowledge of this in polls is embarrassing, with what I have seen.  And leave room for health physical education  - can obesity be lowered?
>> >
>> > My high school teacher friend says that one of the big troubles is the administration assuming that everybody can learn everything.
>> >
>> > The main trouble for you as I see it, is paring down to the time limit.  Emphasize ideas rather than details.
>> >
>> > bill w
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 4:15 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So, first question: how does one score such an invite?  :P
>> >>
>> >> Related question: how do you know that satellite controls aren't why
>> >> they invited you?  (I mean, yeah, likely guess they're more interested
>> >> in education, but let's make sure of your audience.)
>> >>
>> >> You might do well to include a brief overview of how we got to our
>> >> current state -
>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_education_system and so on.
>> >> The modern scholastic system seems to be a result of the Industrial
>> >> Revolution.  Most critically, note the things it was intended to solve
>> >> that are still necessary today:
>> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know how to communicate well.  In
>> >> English-speaking regions such as the US, this means classes in
>> >> English.
>> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic arithmetic.  (Maybe or
>> >> maybe not higher math, but certainly at least through fractions and
>> >> percentages, so as to theoretically be able to calculate how much tax
>> >> they owe - even if many turn that over to accountants, automated or
>> >> otherwise, they still need to be able to verify e.g. sales taxes on
>> >> their dinner bills.)
>> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs basic literacy.  These days, everyone
>> >> needs basic computer skills as well, but that doesn't mean they don't
>> >> need to read and write (just the opposite).
>> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know the basics of science: what is
>> >> a "theory", what is a "hypothesis", and how to conduct experiments to
>> >> find out stuff about the world.  (Just look at the depressed economy
>> >> and constant low-level humanitarian crises in areas of the US where
>> >> this knowledge is seen as contradictory to the dominant religion and
>> >> therefore suppressed.)
>> >> * Yes, literally everyone needs to know basic civics: what is
>> >> "voting", what fair government looks like, how to be fair should one
>> >> find oneself in a position of power, and so on.  (Look at areas of the
>> >> world - such as Iraq - where this knowledge is generally missing from
>> >> the population.  We may be critical of our government, but their
>> >> leaders literally have no idea of how to run a non-tribal government,
>> >> resulting in blatant corruption and miscarriages of justice.  Over
>> >> here, since anyone can - in theory - run for elected office, everyone
>> >> else needs to be sure that anyone who does run probably knows at least
>> >> the basics of what good government even is.)
>> >>
>> >> And so on.  Even with some diversity allowed, there are common basics
>> >> that everyone must be taught, and that must be covered by every
>> >> alternative that some child might be exposed to.
>> >>
>> >> After that, then go on to explore where education might go.  I
>> >> mentioned recently a possibility of more and more fundamental mental
>> >> models, aided by technology to look up details as needed, that let
>> >> those who learn them handle an ever-broader range of topics from the
>> >> same educational effort (the same average number of years spent in
>> >> school).
>> >>
>> >> If you want to talk diversity in education, you might consider
>> >> touching on adapting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_customization
>> >> to education.  Note especially the central concept: using technology
>> >> (not just human instinct, which tends to fail when it is the sole
>> >> instrument used for this, even when the teachers involved are unaware
>> >> they are doing it) to discover the individual needs and strengths, and
>> >> then adapt or invent a curriculum that gets all the requested topics
>> >> to the student in ways that particular student can master quickly.
>> >> (You might put in a slide on detecting when this is happening vs. when
>> >> people are just using their own guesswork, so as to shut down
>> >> possibly-well-intentioned but short-changing efforts that are doomed
>> >> to fail before they can take many students with them.  If you do,
>> >> another slide on the difference between "untested guesswork" and
>> >> "rigorously tested technology" might be useful too.)
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:54 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Exi friends,
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I have been invited to give Ted talk, and I might take them up on it.  I have hung with you for well over 20 years and always read the chatter even if I don?t participate as much as I once did.  My ideas and attitudes have been greatly influenced by ExI.  Naturally my Ted would be greatly influenced by that association.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > I will not speak on my real area of expertise (satellite controls) because that wouldn?t be of general interest to the people who invited me.  They want to hear about a more recent interest of mine: education.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > So? I might give a talk on the future of education.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Please, your perspectives, ideas, suggestions for focus, anything you want to offer.  I have time: the outline wouldn?t need to be ready for several weeks and the pitch itself would happen in May.  I am thinking of a techno-optimist view of the near term easily-foreseeable future.  My notion is to talk about our local public school?s embracing highly diversified curriculum: what if we do and what if we do not?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Help me Exi-wan Kenobi!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > spike
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> extropy-chat mailing list
>> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > extropy-chat mailing list
>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From avant at sollegro.com  Thu Jan 17 02:14:07 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 18:14:07 -0800
Subject: [ExI] intelligence and generalization
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1547571051.10623.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
References: <mailman.7.1547571051.10623.extropy-chat@lists.extropy.org>
Message-ID: <b7c7e02678adebf804d5c1a56d74f3a7.squirrel@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

Adrian Tymes wrote:


> The same way I could trust any human doctor not to do the same
> (replacing me with an upload of the doctor instead).

It is not the same thing at all. That doctor is genetically and culturally
related to you. Some alien intellect, superior to you or not, that
manifested across silicon wafers . . . not so much.

> You can, of course, never be 100% certain the upload is the same
> person.  It's a distinct discontinuity in identity.  At some level, you
> just have to trust. There's no way around it.  (Which doesn't mean you
> don't take several measures to improve the odds that it is still you
> afterward.  Just, don't dismiss the entire operation and measures just
> because you can't get to 100% chance of survival.  A 99% chance of you and
> 1% chance of dead-and-replaced is better than a 100%
> chance of dead.)

Perhaps the problem is that you see "Friendly AI" as a casino game where
you can use clever coding to affect the odds of winning instead of as
humanity playing prisoner's dilemma against an alien intelligence, which
is the way I see it.

You would suggest that we create a slave-race of intelligent machines AND
give them imagination so they could imagine a world without us? Why not
give them emotions so they could envy us and resent us while you are at
it?

Stuart LaForge





From spike at rainier66.com  Mon Jan 21 15:09:55 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 07:09:55 -0800
Subject: [ExI] quora post
Message-ID: <003d01d4b19b$5ea5abf0$1bf103d0$@rainier66.com>

 

A poster on Quora wrote: 

 

This guy told me he gets physically ill whenever he sees me.  What should I
do?

 

 

 

 

I wrote:

When I was in high school I had a desperate crush on a girl. I was afraid to
talk to her. I would be all: Hi Mary, how are ummmmmBLAAAAAAHHH.

Intercom: Cleanup on isle seven.

That would be. bad.

You could make kind of a joke about it, if you are good at improv comedy:
Hey no worries man, I have that effect on people. I had a weight loss
clinic, clients would eat a big meal, come in, take one look at me, blow
chunks, lose weight. 

It was great. We wanted one of those cutesy business names so popular today,
so we called it Scarf n Barf.

It was so successful, they made a movie. Siskel and Ebert said it was a
spew-jerker.

We went over budget though. Our ipecac bill was thru the roof.

We got this old western sheriff guy to play the role of me: Wyatt Urp.

Supporting actress was Cameron Retchardson.

The actors were great, and nobody had a bit of trouble memorizing their
lines. Somehow they all seemed to know them already.

The auditions were really gross, oh mercy.

We had this one guy named Chuck. He could never sit down. As soon as he did
and the director ordered "Up Chuck" the others thought it was a stage cue.
What a mess.

Some of the actors couldn't do it. We had to tell them: heave or leave.

spike

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190121/4e3dc062/attachment-0001.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 16:20:12 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 10:20:12 -0600
Subject: [ExI] morals
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>

What unethical experiment would have the most positive impact on the
society as a whole?   (This is the question I was asked on Quora.  Here is
my answer:

Easy - genetic manipulation of ova and sperm to create designer babies.

If we do this, we can find ways to eliminate most if not all genetic
diseases and conditions, meaning that we will save billions of lives in the
long run, and make many more billions have better lives. On the positive
side, we can find out what makes for a better immune system, better
intelligence, better personality, and all the rest.

Collateral damage - babies born defective in some way because the
experiment did not work as designed. So we tell them that they were an
experiment designed to help all of humanity.

If you were that person, how would you feel? You were, in effect, a
sacrifice on the altar of science.

A parallel - in 1940 you were given penicillin to treat an infection. It
had just been discovered. You die of an allergy that no one knew of - to
the drug. Do you resent being a test case, which in effect you were?

bill w
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/e985c5fc/attachment.html>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jan 22 16:42:58 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 08:42:58 -0800
Subject: [ExI] morals
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006901d4b271$88538310$98fa8930$@rainier66.com>

The field of medicine is filled with ethical dilemmas.  That?s why I chose to not go to med school: those things make me crazy (ethical dilemmas I mean, not med schools.)

 

I chose a field in which I worked 26 years and never once faced an ethical dilemma, never had undue pressure.  Aerospace engineering is perhaps the most stress-free job ever invented: one solves equations, writes algorithms, does interesting stuff, learns lotsa cool interesting physics and technologies, never needs to ponder the imponderable.

 

spike

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:20 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] morals

 


What unethical experiment would have the most positive impact on the society as a whole?   (This is the question I was asked on Quora.  Here is my answer:

 

Easy - genetic manipulation of ova and sperm to create designer babies. 

If we do this, we can find ways to eliminate most if not all genetic diseases and conditions, meaning that we will save billions of lives in the long run, and make many more billions have better lives. On the positive side, we can find out what makes for a better immune system, better intelligence, better personality, and all the rest.

Collateral damage - babies born defective in some way because the experiment did not work as designed. So we tell them that they were an experiment designed to help all of humanity.

If you were that person, how would you feel? You were, in effect, a sacrifice on the altar of science. 

A parallel - in 1940 you were given penicillin to treat an infection. It had just been discovered. You die of an allergy that no one knew of - to the drug. Do you resent being a test case, which in effect you were?

bill w

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/dde56c64/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Tue Jan 22 16:58:04 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 10:58:04 -0600
Subject: [ExI] morals
In-Reply-To: <006901d4b271$88538310$98fa8930$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006901d4b271$88538310$98fa8930$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEaNTFnv48TnSE8Xy2z=UJ-hT7DJNJsQt_WEVbjh3L7gfA@mail.gmail.com>

Well, shoot, Spike - I was hoping to get a ponder out of you.  bill w

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 10:47 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> The field of medicine is filled with ethical dilemmas.  That?s why I chose
> to not go to med school: those things make me crazy (ethical dilemmas I
> mean, not med schools.)
>
>
>
> I chose a field in which I worked 26 years and never once faced an ethical
> dilemma, never had undue pressure.  Aerospace engineering is perhaps the
> most stress-free job ever invented: one solves equations, writes
> algorithms, does interesting stuff, learns lotsa cool interesting physics
> and technologies, never needs to ponder the imponderable.
>
>
>
> spike
>
>
>
> *From:* extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> *On Behalf
> Of *William Flynn Wallace
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2019 8:20 AM
> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> *Subject:* [ExI] morals
>
>
>
>
> *What unethical experiment would have the most positive impact on the
> society as a whole?   (This is the question I was asked on Quora.  Here is
> my answer:*
>
>
>
> Easy - genetic manipulation of ova and sperm to create designer babies.
>
> If we do this, we can find ways to eliminate most if not all genetic
> diseases and conditions, meaning that we will save billions of lives in the
> long run, and make many more billions have better lives. On the positive
> side, we can find out what makes for a better immune system, better
> intelligence, better personality, and all the rest.
>
> Collateral damage - babies born defective in some way because the
> experiment did not work as designed. So we tell them that they were an
> experiment designed to help all of humanity.
>
> If you were that person, how would you feel? You were, in effect, a
> sacrifice on the altar of science.
>
> A parallel - in 1940 you were given penicillin to treat an infection. It
> had just been discovered. You die of an allergy that no one knew of - to
> the drug. Do you resent being a test case, which in effect you were?
>
> bill w
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/929fe53d/attachment.html>

From spike at rainier66.com  Tue Jan 22 17:31:43 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 09:31:43 -0800
Subject: [ExI] morals
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEaNTFnv48TnSE8Xy2z=UJ-hT7DJNJsQt_WEVbjh3L7gfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <006901d4b271$88538310$98fa8930$@rainier66.com>
 <CAO+xQEaNTFnv48TnSE8Xy2z=UJ-hT7DJNJsQt_WEVbjh3L7gfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01d4b278$581d6c90$085845b0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace
Subject: Re: [ExI] morals

 

Well, shoot, Spike - I was hoping to get a ponder out of you.  bill w

 

 

 

BillW, you did get a ponder outta me: at moral dilemmas, I recognize that I suck.  There are no equations for that.  My area of expertise is in setting up and solving systems of differential equations, making diagrams to model and improve control systems, that sorta thing.  In the area of ethics, I am completely lost.  None of the tools I have spent my life learning how to master are of any value in that field.  I am as out of my element as an astronaut on horseback (who doesn?t know how to ride a horse.)

 

I will listen carefully to what others write on this topic.  Recognizing that genetic manipulation probably would lead to solutions to unknown numbers of medical conditions and new therapies while simultaneously being unethical, I might suggest end-runs around the problem.  Example: studying the DNA those who have a particular condition and comparing to the DNA of those who do not, then use our equations (yaaaaay!) to see if we can extract some answers.  That way we get to solutions (much slower perhaps) without risk of actually causing some horrifying medical condition.

 

This approach is not free of its own moral and ethical dilemmas.  If we go this route and find solutions, those who are born with horrifying medical conditions during the period we were searching could have been spared.  But only in a sense: the person with the detectable genetic condition might not have been born at all.  We would discover the condition in the embryonic stage, then choose instead one of the sibling embryos.

 

See there BillW, I wasn?t kidding: I really don?t have the answers.  I have some cool questions however.

 

spike

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/780dde94/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 00:18:09 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 19:18:09 -0500
Subject: [ExI] morals
In-Reply-To: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv3UPsGRxC3CzFFxoz8hguPfDdE0G=4Gm62a4TNXO1+4vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 11:32 AM William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> > What unethical experiment would have the most positive impact on the
> society as a whole?   (This is the question I was asked on Quora.  Here is
> my answer:
>
Easy - genetic manipulation of ova and sperm to create designer babies.
>

I would tend to agree except if it has a positive impact, if it reduced the
general level of misery in the world, how is it unethical? Well perhaps it
is because I've notice whenever ethicists, that is to say experts who are
far more moral than you or me, pontificate about what is right and what is
wrong more often than not what they insist is the most ethical thing to do
is whatever will cause the most suffering.

I just finished Siddhartha Mukherjee's book "The Gene" and one chapter is
about the death of Jesse Gelsinger during failed gene therapy in 1999. A
company thought they had a cure for a rare disease called "ornithine
transcarbamylase deficiency" and asked for approval of a test. It can be
fatal but Gelsinger only had a mild form of the disease, so why was
Gelsinger the first test patients in a procedure that was known to be
risky? That was the brilliant idea of the ethicists, they maintained that
if they offered it to somebody with a severe form of the disease they
would, in their words "be pressured" to consent to this risky treatment
because the only alternative was death. Therefore medical ethicists (aka
nitwits) ordered that the therapy only be offered to somebody who had such
a mild form of the illness it was just a nuisance and not a threat to life.

On another list I mentioned that every single year that we DON'T use Gene
Drive we are condemning 725,000 people to die from malaria. I was told it
would be unethical to use it because if we did it would caused 40 malaria
causing mosquito species to go extinct and even though there would still be
3500 mosquito species around it still might make a environmental
catastrophe as great as the cane toad problem. The cane toad problem!

If the net result of ethics is more death and human misery then what's the
point of ethics?

John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/bee5c33a/attachment.html>

From foozler83 at gmail.com  Wed Jan 23 00:47:24 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 18:47:24 -0600
Subject: [ExI] morals
In-Reply-To: <CAJPayv3UPsGRxC3CzFFxoz8hguPfDdE0G=4Gm62a4TNXO1+4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO+xQEYsTtCEFgT7H5-jDa7V0gW0ktNeCasNs7EXLYLF57VhPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJPayv3UPsGRxC3CzFFxoz8hguPfDdE0G=4Gm62a4TNXO1+4vQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEY0Le0dGZjorbztT=dWr7yWD-Yfa8Cy9gHzYi6_nj7Bqg@mail.gmail.com>

'The Gene' - great book!

I am puzzled by African countries - they seem to do what they want to
despite international disapproval.  So why haven't they used Gene Drive?

If you and your spouse were going to have a baby and had the sperm and ova
tested, would you agree to let the geneticists turn off a gene that would
produce, in almost any environment, a fatal disease?  Turning off a gene is
something that happens very often anyway; ditto turning on - presumably in
response to environmental conditions.  If U.S. law prohibited this, would
you go to Germany, say?  How about Haiti?

This is going to happen and may be happening now,and is going to get more
complex, such as inserting different genes from another person - or maybe
even, in the future, a synthetic gene.

We can dodge this question.  We don't have to get involved.  But fast
evolution is upon us.

I am only about halfway through it, but I am recommending this book:
Evolving Ourselves, by Enriquez and Gullans, copyright 2015.

bill w

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 6:23 PM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 11:32 AM William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> > What unethical experiment would have the most positive impact on the
>> society as a whole?   (This is the question I was asked on Quora.  Here is
>> my answer:
>>
> Easy - genetic manipulation of ova and sperm to create designer babies.
>>
>
> I would tend to agree except if it has a positive impact, if it reduced
> the general level of misery in the world, how is it unethical? Well perhaps
> it is because I've notice whenever ethicists, that is to say experts who
> are far more moral than you or me, pontificate about what is right and what
> is wrong more often than not what they insist is the most ethical thing to
> do is whatever will cause the most suffering.
>
> I just finished Siddhartha Mukherjee's book "The Gene" and one chapter is
> about the death of Jesse Gelsinger during failed gene therapy in 1999. A
> company thought they had a cure for a rare disease called "ornithine
> transcarbamylase deficiency" and asked for approval of a test. It can be
> fatal but Gelsinger only had a mild form of the disease, so why was
> Gelsinger the first test patients in a procedure that was known to be
> risky? That was the brilliant idea of the ethicists, they maintained that
> if they offered it to somebody with a severe form of the disease they
> would, in their words "be pressured" to consent to this risky treatment
> because the only alternative was death. Therefore medical ethicists (aka
> nitwits) ordered that the therapy only be offered to somebody who had such
> a mild form of the illness it was just a nuisance and not a threat to life.
>
> On another list I mentioned that every single year that we DON'T use Gene
> Drive we are condemning 725,000 people to die from malaria. I was told it
> would be unethical to use it because if we did it would caused 40 malaria
> causing mosquito species to go extinct and even though there would still
> be 3500 mosquito species around it still might make a environmental
> catastrophe as great as the cane toad problem. The cane toad problem!
>
> If the net result of ethics is more death and human misery then what's the
> point of ethics?
>
> John K Clark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190122/5ec197ac/attachment.html>

From avant at sollegro.com  Wed Jan 23 04:19:00 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 20:19:00 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Strong AI and sleeping bees
Message-ID: <20190122201900.Horde.xntnHIUtQKGXFK16HDQ7dSU@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>

So it turns out that most animal species need to sleep. Surprisingly,  
this includes invertebrates like honey bees. It has been  
experimentally shown that sleep deprivation affects the precision of  
honey bee waggle dances, relearning, and memory consolidation.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3012459/
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/22/i.1
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/22/3981

The question I pose is this: Is sleep fundamentally necessary for  
consciousness such as in a general AI? or is it instead strictly a  
biological foible? Why do you think so?

Stuart LaForge


From giulio at gmail.com  Thu Jan 24 14:14:37 2019
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:14:37 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Immortality or Bust: On the road to the future with Zoltan
 Istvan
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyf0VbiheX36b-yrHVGRS5E0jheG=vJz-zQcUKrbnB6mqg@mail.gmail.com>

Immortality or Bust: On the road to the future with Zoltan Istvan

The feature documentary ?Immortality or Bust,? which won the Breakout
Award at Raw Science Film Festival, follows Zoltan Istvan and his
Immortality Bus on the roads of America.

https://turingchurch.net/immortality-or-bust-on-the-road-to-the-future-with-zoltan-istvan-bd4a643cb9fb


From avant at sollegro.com  Fri Jan 25 00:10:54 2019
From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2019 16:10:54 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Alzheimer's link to gum disease
Message-ID: <20190124161054.Horde.gqATiS8MVbHpA66-QI7wo9b@secure199.inmotionhosting.com>


Back when I was in graduate school for microbiology, they had  
discovered that the bacteria in dental plaque was also found in  
arterial plaques of heart disease patients. Now they have found the  
bacteria that causes gingivitis or gum disease (Porphyromonas  
gingivalis) in the brains of deceased Alzheimer's patients. Also when  
the study's authors swabbed the bacteria onto the gums of mice, within  
a matter of weeks, they found the bacteria in the brains of the mice  
as well as abnormal beta-amyloid proteins that are associated with  
Alzheimer's patients.

The take home message is brushing and flossing is good for your brain  
in addition to your heart and teeth.

Summary
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/01/gum-disease-causing-bacteria-could-spur-alzheimer-s

Full paper
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/1/eaau3333

Excerpt:
----------------------
"Working with labs in Europe, the United States, New Zealand, and  
Australia, the Cortexyme team confirmed earlier reports that P.  
gingivalis can be found in the brains of deceased people with  
Alzheimer?s, and they detected the microbe?s DNA in living patients?  
spinal fluid. In more than 90% of the more than 50 Alzheimer?s brain  
samples, they also spotted toxic enzymes produced by the bacteria  
called gingipains. Brains with more gingipains had higher quantities  
of the Alzheimer?s-linked proteins tau and ubiquitin. Even the brains  
of roughly 50 deceased, apparently dementia-free elderly people  
selected as controls often had lower levels of both gingipains and the  
proteins indicating Alzheimer?s pathology. That early appearance is  
important, Lynch says, because ?you would expect it to be there before  
the onset? of symptoms.

To explore whether the bacteria were causing disease, the team swabbed  
the gums of healthy mice with P. gingivalis every other day for 6  
weeks to establish an infection. They later detected the bacteria in  
the animals? brains, along with dying neurons and higher than normal  
levels of ?-amyloid protein. In a lab dish, the gingipains?whose job  
is to chop up proteins?damaged tau, a regularly occurring brain  
protein that forms tangles in people with Alzheimer?s. In the brain,  
this protein damage may spur the formation of tangles, they say."
----------------------

Stuart LaForge



From hkeithhenson at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 06:34:12 2019
From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 22:34:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
Message-ID: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>

In talking to Vernor Vinge after Tim May died, he mentioned

"Way back, I had a long chat with him at a mutual friends' place. He
had many cool ideas. One, in particular, I haven't seen elsewhere:
that the complexity of biology is underestimated because things like
DNA are essentially jump-threaded code."

Vernor adds that if there's anything grievously wrong with the notion,
that may just be due to his muddled recollection of the conversation.

Jump threaded is also known as spaghetti code.  I think the idea is
close to the actual way DNA works.  If this provides insight into DNA
work, it is nice to assign credit to Tim May.

Keith

From spike at rainier66.com  Sun Jan 27 15:30:12 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 07:30:12 -0800
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
In-Reply-To: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
Keith Henson
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 10:34 PM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA

In talking to Vernor Vinge after Tim May died, he mentioned

>..."Way back, I had a long chat with him at a mutual friends' place. He had
many cool ideas. ...
that the complexity of biology is underestimated because things like DNA are
essentially jump-threaded code."

>...Jump threaded is also known as spaghetti code...
Keith
_______________________________________________


Even the notion of spaghetti code analogy vastly understates the complexity
of how DNA creates a cell.  Spaghetti code jumps all over the place and is
crazy-hard to debug, but that is mostly cosmetic.  The code behaves
consistently.  There are so many chance events in embryo development, it is
astonishing that identical twins look alike.  They are born with different
fingerprints but similar features.  This is analogous to two bell curves
created by the same test using a different set of students.  If you get
enough students, the curves look similar, but the details of how it formed
differ.

If you look back as recently as 15 years ago at what was commonly written
about all the stuff we could learn if we could read our DNA, it is
laughable: we thought that whole system was far simpler than it turned out
to be.  We are still finding new complications.

spike


From foozler83 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 16:20:06 2019
From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 10:20:06 -0600
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
In-Reply-To: <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAO+xQEbt7wV86gOOTtu_-+qHoXtBdRj8jDLHfK5Lo3d7x74sAA@mail.gmail.com>

You guys just don't realize how fantastic all of this is.  In college
(1960-1964) I had an intro psych book that said that the number of
chromosomes was 48.  We just don't realize how fast science is going - warp
speed I say.  bill w

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:35 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> Keith Henson
> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 10:34 PM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
>
> In talking to Vernor Vinge after Tim May died, he mentioned
>
> >..."Way back, I had a long chat with him at a mutual friends' place. He
> had
> many cool ideas. ...
> that the complexity of biology is underestimated because things like DNA
> are
> essentially jump-threaded code."
>
> >...Jump threaded is also known as spaghetti code...
> Keith
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> Even the notion of spaghetti code analogy vastly understates the complexity
> of how DNA creates a cell.  Spaghetti code jumps all over the place and is
> crazy-hard to debug, but that is mostly cosmetic.  The code behaves
> consistently.  There are so many chance events in embryo development, it is
> astonishing that identical twins look alike.  They are born with different
> fingerprints but similar features.  This is analogous to two bell curves
> created by the same test using a different set of students.  If you get
> enough students, the curves look similar, but the details of how it formed
> differ.
>
> If you look back as recently as 15 years ago at what was commonly written
> about all the stuff we could learn if we could read our DNA, it is
> laughable: we thought that whole system was far simpler than it turned out
> to be.  We are still finding new complications.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190127/2b648ea9/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Sun Jan 27 17:31:51 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 17:31:51 +0000
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
In-Reply-To: <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armiG+ZyFb=rho+Eeo4bfk0S29gL6FyyTX_yLHD-XkZ7oYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2019 at 15:36, spike wrote:
> Even the notion of spaghetti code analogy vastly understates the complexity
> of how DNA creates a cell.  Spaghetti code jumps all over the place and is
> crazy-hard to debug, but that is mostly cosmetic.  The code behaves
> consistently.  There are so many chance events in embryo development, it is
> astonishing that identical twins look alike.  They are born with different
> fingerprints but similar features.  This is analogous to two bell curves
> created by the same test using a different set of students.  If you get or even from
> enough students, the curves look similar, but the details of how it formed
> differ.
>
> If you look back as recently as 15 years ago at what was commonly written
> about all the stuff we could learn if we could read our DNA, it is
> laughable: we thought that whole system was far simpler than it turned out
> to be.  We are still finding new complications.
>

Keith said that the suggestion from Tim May was made 'way back' in
time. That probably means before structured programming became the
more normal coding practice. At that time excessive use of the GOTO
statement was more common and created spaghetti code that was
difficult to follow.  Some languages even allowed the original GOTO
destination to be changed from elsewhere in the program, depending on
data encountered by the program, or even data returned from calls to
sub-routines outside the main program. The main program would not behave
consistently unless all the data and states in all the surrounding
programs was exactly the same. This would be more like DNA being
modified by the environment, or the environment deciding which genes
get expressed in particular cases.
Tim May might have been thinking of more than mere spaghetti code.



BillK

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 00:18:03 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 19:18:03 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Statistics
Message-ID: <CAJPayv2MJ-jszHH=pLwWwiyvEBrc77Cqqk4TGn5iZZAG3tkaew@mail.gmail.com>

The most powerful man in the world, the Commander In Chief of the USA,
tweeted some interesting statistics today, it seems that there are exactly
25,772,342 illegal aliens living in the USA and from January 1 to today
they have cost us $18,959,495,168 and $603,331,392 on last Friday alone.
Trump didn't say where he got these numbers but I strongly suspect he
obtained them by pulling them out of his ass.

Indecently he's also started tweeting "voter fraud is rampant" again,
probably because of his worry over his falling popularity in the polls and
to prepare us for the action he will take if the 2020 election doesn't come
out as he would like. I predict such tweets will increase exponentially as
election day approaches.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190127/417fc299/attachment.html>

From johnkclark at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 02:20:35 2019
From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2019 21:20:35 -0500
Subject: [ExI] Tim May and DNA
In-Reply-To: <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
References: <CAPiwVB5w9qOvaNbtSToxR3dwKZ1YyhQbtFv2LxG0EYQe=n6otA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d4b655$325d07a0$971716e0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAJPayv0HN+W5=jETaaV9DdhbxTccJikm3ns3E5usPTEr4RK7hQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 10:36 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

>  If you look back as recently as 15 years ago at what was commonly written
> > about all the stuff we could learn if we could read our DNA, it is
> > laughable: we thought that whole system was far simpler than it turned
> out
> > to be.  We are still finding new complications.



That's true, and yet we know for a fact that the entire recipe for building
a human being is less than 750 meg long even though its written in
convoluted spaghetti code with massive amounts of redundancy.  I want to
consider a very small amount of that 750 meg, the part involving the brain
hardware and even more important the part that encodes the general learning
algorithm that enabled Einstein to go from learning which way is up on the
day he was born to learning how General Relativity works 36 years later.

There is a correlation between the brain size of animals and their
intelligence but the correlation is not very strong and there are lots of
glaring exceptions. Crows ravens and parrots are about as smart as
chimpanzees and yet their brains are hundreds of times smaller. I suspect
birds have less spaghetti code and their programming is more streamlined
because if there is environmental pressure to become smarter a flying
creature can't just develop a larger heaver brain like the ancestor of a
chimp could, so it must develop smaller faster better software.

Some humans have small brains and yet can be quite intelligent, for example
the very successful french poet and novelist Anatole France won the 1921
Nobel Prize in Literature ("in recognition of his brilliant literary
achievements")  and he had a brain of only about 2/3 average weight. At the
other end of the spectrum another another very successful writer, the
Russian novelist Ivan Turgenev, had a brain a third larger than average,
twice the size of  Anatole France's. So if you don't need a big brain to be
smart why did Evolution bother with producing one? Perhaps because of
longevity, with lots of spare capacity you can still function even if
something goes wrong with part of your brain. People with very small brains
can be just as smart as everybody else when young but are much more likely
to develop senile dementia when they're in their 40s.

All this makes me think the era of true AI may be much closer than many
people think, I wouldn't be surprised if the master learning algorithm in
its most efficient form is less than a meg in size; with such a program and
time to learn from the external world maybe a human level AI could exist on
a iPhone.

 John K Clark
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190127/9c1675df/attachment.html>

From giulio at gmail.com  Mon Jan 28 15:36:43 2019
From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2019 16:36:43 +0100
Subject: [ExI] Rewrite,
 by Gregory Benford: Your afterlives in other Everett worlds
Message-ID: <CAKTCJyeBTjtHX8G7SDGU-PL_UqUB01=ePaKE4_iftCsx=3U-CA@mail.gmail.com>

Rewrite, by Gregory Benford: Your afterlives in other Everett worlds

This the science fiction novel that I wanted to read. Thanks Gregory
Benford for writing it for me. Imaginative, bold, awesome.

https://turingchurch.net/rewrite-by-gregory-benford-your-afterlives-in-other-everett-worlds-f104a7cea7a2

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jan 30 06:05:44 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2019 22:05:44 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
Message-ID: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>

 

 

I'm doing a test.  I get a different answer from the one the test publisher
offers.  Anyone want to take a crack at it?

 

 

 

The Annapolis Apples and the Boston Bananas play a series.  First team to
win 3 games wins the series.  Each team is equally likely to win each game,
no ties, games independent.

 

If the Bananas won the second game but the Apples won the series, what is
the probability that the Bananas won the first game?

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190129/584c48a6/attachment.html>

From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 08:25:08 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 00:25:08 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>

These are the ways the series could have gone down, given that information:
BBAAA
ABAA (series would have ended there)
ABBAA
ABABA

Given that, I calculate the odds of the Bananas having won the first
game as 1/4.

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:09 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I?m doing a test.  I get a different answer from the one the test publisher offers.  Anyone want to take a crack at it?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Annapolis Apples and the Boston Bananas play a series.  First team to win 3 games wins the series.  Each team is equally likely to win each game, no ties, games independent.
>
>
>
> If the Bananas won the second game but the Apples won the series, what is the probability that the Bananas won the first game?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jan 30 14:51:06 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 06:51:06 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 12:25 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] logic puzzle

 

These are the ways the series could have gone down, given that information:

BBAAA

ABAA (series would have ended there)

ABBAA

ABABA

 

Given that, I calculate the odds of the Bananas having won the first game as 1/4.

 

 

 

 

 

Ja, that?s what I am getting too.  The authors of the test (AMC10, year 2005, problem 18) claim this:

 

 

 

 

If the Bananas won the first two games, the Apples would need to win the last three, so the only possible order is BBAAA.

 

If the Apples won the first game, the possible order of wins are:

ABBAA

ABABA

ABAAX 

 

where X means the last game wasn?t played.

 

(OK, I follow them up to this point.)

 

Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.

 

(!)

 

(Indeed?)

 

(If so, I need to understand the heck outta this concept, otherwise I will miss every one of these.)

 

(Adrian!  Cool to see you posting again.  Did you play in AMC back in your childhood and youth?)

 

(Sometimes when I pretend to be stoned I can kinda follow their argument (I?m not, but I can vaguely imagine what it would be like.))  

 

(OK software gurus, can we make a sim to prove this?  I wrote a script that keeps telling me it is ?, but I mighta written my own bias into the code.)

 

(spike)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:09 PM < <mailto:spike at rainier66.com> spike at rainier66.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> I?m doing a test.  I get a different answer from the one the test publisher offers.  Anyone want to take a crack at it?

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> The Annapolis Apples and the Boston Bananas play a series.  First team to win 3 games wins the series.  Each team is equally likely to win each game, no ties, games independent.

> 

> 

> 

> If the Bananas won the second game but the Apples won the series, what is the probability that the Bananas won the first game?

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> _______________________________________________

> extropy-chat mailing list

>  <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

>  <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

 

_______________________________________________

extropy-chat mailing list

 <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org

 <http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20190130/ea82c984/attachment.html>

From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 16:37:45 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:37:45 +0000
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CAL_armi+AHK5nFfp7vuXS26msF0LVivySPHcaboSnzyef=WgdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 at 14:57, spike wrote:
<snip>
> (OK, I follow them up to this point.)
>
> Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.
> (!)
> (Indeed?)
> (If so, I need to understand the heck outta this concept, otherwise I will miss every one of these.)
>
>

There is a solutions pdf that explains the probabilities in more detail.
Page down to Problem 18.
<http://hub.wastudentmath.org/TestFiles/Amc10/Amc10_2005_Individual_0.10_A_A.pdf>

BillK


BillK

From spike at rainier66.com  Wed Jan 30 17:03:51 2019
From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 09:03:51 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <CAL_armi+AHK5nFfp7vuXS26msF0LVivySPHcaboSnzyef=WgdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armi+AHK5nFfp7vuXS26msF0LVivySPHcaboSnzyef=WgdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00a101d4b8bd$c6b5f410$5421dc30$@rainier66.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
BillK
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 8:38 AM
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] logic puzzle

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 at 14:57, spike wrote:
<snip>
> (OK, I follow them up to this point.)
>
>>... Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is
twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.
> (!)
> (Indeed?)
> (If so, I need to understand the heck outta this concept, otherwise I will
miss every one of these.)
>
>

>...There is a solutions pdf that explains the probabilities in more detail.
Page down to Problem 18.

<http://hub.wastudentmath.org/TestFiles/Amc10/Amc10_2005_Individual_0.10_A_A
.pdf>


BillK




OK cool, thanks BillK that does make sense I suppose.  

Sheesh probability is a crazy thing.

spike






From pharos at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 19:22:18 2019
From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 19:22:18 +0000
Subject: [ExI] SETI reviews the Drake equation
Message-ID: <CAL_armh6rkgfkPQzRqg0+3fmN-oxUvr6EPphfgyXvd6At3dXbw@mail.gmail.com>

The Drake Equation: Could It Be Wrong?
The Drake Equation is a mixture of parameters whose values, or even
relevance, may change.

By Seth Shostak, Senior Astronomer     Jan 29, 2019

<https://www.seti.org/drake-equation-could-it-be-wrong>

Quote:

And in any case, Drake argues that deliberate colonization might be uncommon.

?The spreading of intelligent life from one star system to another
would probably not appeal to truly intelligent creatures,? he says,
?once they calculate that, even travelling at, say, only one-tenth the
speed of light, it takes more than a million times more energy to
establish a colony around another star than required to establish one
of the same size near their own. There is plenty of material available
in the satellites and asteroids of stellar environments, assuming they
resemble ours, to create a multitude of habitable, planet-like abodes
right at home.?

As for panspermia, he notes that ?it would be far more efficient to
send by radio the data to replicate the creature's DNA, to clone
duplicates of themselves.?
------------------

BillK


From atymes at gmail.com  Wed Jan 30 19:57:31 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 11:57:31 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNTV8r61ZwbTMnWRyvVuOTmw0jpsJuB33mo+CE=Dyc79LA@mail.gmail.com>

> Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.

Ah, right, missed that.  So yeah, it is 1/5.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 6:55 AM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 12:25 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] logic puzzle
>
>
>
> These are the ways the series could have gone down, given that information:
>
> BBAAA
>
> ABAA (series would have ended there)
>
> ABBAA
>
> ABABA
>
>
>
> Given that, I calculate the odds of the Bananas having won the first game as 1/4.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ja, that?s what I am getting too.  The authors of the test (AMC10, year 2005, problem 18) claim this:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If the Bananas won the first two games, the Apples would need to win the last three, so the only possible order is BBAAA.
>
>
>
> If the Apples won the first game, the possible order of wins are:
>
> ABBAA
>
> ABABA
>
> ABAAX
>
>
>
> where X means the last game wasn?t played.
>
>
>
> (OK, I follow them up to this point.)
>
>
>
> Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.
>
>
>
> (!)
>
>
>
> (Indeed?)
>
>
>
> (If so, I need to understand the heck outta this concept, otherwise I will miss every one of these.)
>
>
>
> (Adrian!  Cool to see you posting again.  Did you play in AMC back in your childhood and youth?)
>
>
>
> (Sometimes when I pretend to be stoned I can kinda follow their argument (I?m not, but I can vaguely imagine what it would be like.))
>
>
>
> (OK software gurus, can we make a sim to prove this?  I wrote a script that keeps telling me it is ?, but I mighta written my own bias into the code.)
>
>
>
> (spike)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:09 PM <spike at rainier66.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I?m doing a test.  I get a different answer from the one the test publisher offers.  Anyone want to take a crack at it?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The Annapolis Apples and the Boston Bananas play a series.  First team to win 3 games wins the series.  Each team is equally likely to win each game, no ties, games independent.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If the Bananas won the second game but the Apples won the series, what is the probability that the Bananas won the first game?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > extropy-chat mailing list
>
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> extropy-chat mailing list
>
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat


From deimtee at optusnet.com.au  Thu Jan 31 05:50:58 2019
From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (deimtee)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:50:58 +1100
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <00a101d4b8bd$c6b5f410$5421dc30$@rainier66.com>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armi+AHK5nFfp7vuXS26msF0LVivySPHcaboSnzyef=WgdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a101d4b8bd$c6b5f410$5421dc30$@rainier66.com>
Message-ID: <8c6077c7-d31e-3ddc-565c-978bbf54c204@optusnet.com.au>

On 1/31/19 4:03 AM, spike at rainier66.com wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf Of
> BillK
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 8:38 AM
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] logic puzzle
>
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 at 14:57, spike wrote:
> <snip>
>> (OK, I follow them up to this point.)
>>
>>> ... Since ABAAX is dependent on the outcome of 4 games instead of 5, it is twice as likely to occur and can be treated as two possibilities.
>> (!)
>> (Indeed?)
>> (If so, I need to understand the heck outta this concept, otherwise I will miss every one of these.)
>
>> ...There is a solutions pdf that explains the probabilities in more detail.
> Page down to Problem 18.
>
> <http://hub.wastudentmath.org/TestFiles/Amc10/Amc10_2005_Individual_0.10_A_A
> .pdf>
>
>
> BillK
>
>
> OK cool, thanks BillK that does make sense I suppose.
>
> Sheesh probability is a crazy thing.
>
> spike
>
> _

Just to throw a spanner in the works,? given the Bananas won the second 
match, if they won the first match, the only way for the Apples to win 
the series would be to win matches 3, 4 and 5.? The probability of this 
is .5*.5*.5? or 1/8.? The odds that they won the first match is 
therefore 7/8.

-David.



From atymes at gmail.com  Thu Jan 31 06:51:30 2019
From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 22:51:30 -0800
Subject: [ExI] logic puzzle
In-Reply-To: <8c6077c7-d31e-3ddc-565c-978bbf54c204@optusnet.com.au>
References: <002901d4b861$d6b6a6e0$8423f4a0$@rainier66.com>
 <CALAdGNQ_kkmTu7mnn9Skhepkx1FNV+0waPCdd=WeQdbrAje4dA@mail.gmail.com>
 <005301d4b8ab$3b3674d0$b1a35e70$@rainier66.com>
 <CAL_armi+AHK5nFfp7vuXS26msF0LVivySPHcaboSnzyef=WgdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00a101d4b8bd$c6b5f410$5421dc30$@rainier66.com>
 <8c6077c7-d31e-3ddc-565c-978bbf54c204@optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <CALAdGNQWT9t6wzAT_QEyTv4mEh3bWMbE9ymGQyEqmWOmW4uGUQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 9:55 PM deimtee <deimtee at optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> Just to throw a spanner in the works,  given the Bananas won the second
> match, if they won the first match, the only way for the Apples to win
> the series would be to win matches 3, 4 and 5.  The probability of this
> is .5*.5*.5  or 1/8.  The odds that they won the first match is
> therefore 7/8.

Not so much.  We know a priori that the Apples won the series,
therefore if we knew the Bananas won the first and second match, the
odds of the Apples winning each subsequent match is 100% as that is
the only result consistent with the a prioris.