From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed May 1 16:52:44 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 09:52:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] African populations crossbred with other extinct humans Message-ID: https://m.phys.org/news/2019-04-african-populations-crossbred-extinct-humans.html I believe the big takeaway here is how extinct archaic humans have been detected here through traces in the modern human genome ? rather than, say, through DNA extracted from fossils. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed May 1 17:52:25 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 10:52:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] African populations crossbred with other extinct humans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably these are only currently-extinct humans. Crossbreeding with humans who were already extinct at the time would be difficult. On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 9:56 AM Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > https://m.phys.org/news/2019-04-african-populations-crossbred-extinct-humans.html > > I believe the big takeaway here is how extinct archaic humans have been > detected here through traces in the modern human genome ? rather than, say, > through DNA extracted from fossils. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu May 2 16:30:37 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 17:30:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Hubble Legacy Field Message-ID: It's full of stars! No - It's full of galaxies! Hubble Astronomers Assemble Wide View of the Evolving Universe Release date: May 2, 2019 Quote: Astronomers have put together the largest and most comprehensive "history book" of galaxies into one single image, using 16 years' worth of observations from NASA's Hubble Space Telescope. The deep-sky mosaic, created from nearly 7,500 individual exposures, provides a wide portrait of the distant universe, containing 265,000 galaxies that stretch back through 13.3 billion years of time to just 500 million years after the big bang. The faintest and farthest galaxies are just one ten-billionth the brightness of what the human eye can see. The universe's evolutionary history is also chronicled in this one sweeping view. The portrait shows how galaxies change over time, building themselves up to become the giant galaxies seen in the nearby universe. This ambitious endeavor, called the Hubble Legacy Field, also combines observations taken by several Hubble deep-field surveys, including the eXtreme Deep Field (XDF), the deepest view of the universe. The wavelength range stretches from ultraviolet to near-infrared light, capturing the key features of galaxy assembly over time. ------------- Hubble Legacy Field Video zoom Duration: 50 seconds The video begins with a view of the thousands of galaxies in the Hubble Ultra Deep Field and slowly zooms out to reveal the larger Hubble Legacy Field, containing 265,000 galaxies. ---------------- No comment - Just Wow!!! BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 3 19:36:35 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 15:36:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto Message-ID: Somebody, nobody knows who, has started a website with a countdown clock claiming that when it reaches zero Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin's creator, will reveal himself to the world: https://gotsatoshi.com/ It's probably a hoax but it got me thinking for the hundredths time why Satoshi has chosen to remain anonymous since October 31 2008 when he started it all. He must have an iron will because he has 980,000 Bitcoins making him one of the richest people in the world but he has never spent a single one. Whoever Satoshi is he's got to be a brilliant but very odd man who is totally uninterested in fame or great wealth. That's why I don't see how Satoshi could be a group of people as some say, a group could never keep a secret this big for this long, somebody would look at all those Bitcoins and want to buy a new car. There is just a limited number of people that strange. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri May 3 23:19:47 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 16:19:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495F8960-21CD-44A3-8C69-D733BEC3C97C@gmail.com> On May 3, 2019, at 12:36 PM, John Clark wrote: > > Somebody, nobody knows who, has started a website with a countdown clock claiming that when it reaches zero Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin's creator, will reveal himself to the world: > > https://gotsatoshi.com/ > > It's probably a hoax but it got me thinking for the hundredths time why Satoshi has chosen to remain anonymous since October 31 2008 when he started it all. He must have an iron will because he has 980,000 Bitcoins making him one of the richest people in the world but he has never spent a single one. Whoever Satoshi is he's got to be a brilliant but very odd man who is totally uninterested in fame or great wealth. That's why I don't see how Satoshi could be a group of people as some say, a group could never keep a secret this big for this long, somebody would look at all those Bitcoins and want to buy a new car. There is just a limited number of people that strange. Unless I were otherwise fabulously wealthy or somehow immune to the need for wealth, had I that much coin, I?d have exchanged at least a tenth of them by now (for a nice pad, great food, ever more books, and various charities*). Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst * I reckon that might not be called an exchange. One thing I?d make sure refugees desperate to flee Central America, Yemen, Syria, etc. got some legal defense. And of course I?d plow some coin into longevity research.;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri May 3 23:20:10 2019 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 19:20:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2019, 3:40 PM John Clark wrote: > He must have an iron will because he has 980,000 Bitcoins making him one > of the richest people in the world but he has never spent a single one. > Whoever Satoshi is he's got to be a brilliant but very odd man who is > totally uninterested in fame or great wealth. That's why I don't see how > Satoshi could be a group of people as some say, a group could never keep a > secret this big for this long, somebody would look at all those Bitcoins > and want to buy a new car. There is just a limited number of people that > strange. > If i had invented bitcoin I'd have a million coins in one wallet and 1 coin in a million wallets. If i wanted a new car or a boat or an island or somesuch, i might have sold some of those 1-coin wallets. Idk, i don't have have any btc :( > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aleksei at iki.fi Fri May 3 23:33:14 2019 From: aleksei at iki.fi (Aleksei Riikonen) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 02:33:14 +0300 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > he has never spent a single one. The fact that he hasn't spent any of the coins *known* to be his, is no reason to assume that he wouldn't additionally have done lots of bitcoin transactions that are near-impossible to connect to his "Satoshi Nakamoto" identity (until he chooses to reveal more, that is). Actually, it makes perfect sense that he only connected to "Satoshi Nakamoto" those Bitcoins that he didn't intend to do anything with for a very long time. -- Aleksei Riikonen - http://www.iki.fi/aleksei From stathisp at gmail.com Fri May 3 23:56:58 2019 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 09:56:58 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2019 at 5:39 am, John Clark wrote: > Somebody, nobody knows who, has started a website with a countdown clock > claiming that when it reaches zero Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin's creator, > will reveal himself to the world: > > https://gotsatoshi.com/ > > It's probably a hoax but it got me thinking for the hundredths time why > Satoshi has chosen to remain anonymous since October 31 2008 when he > started it all. He must have an iron will because he has 980,000 Bitcoins > making him one of the richest people in the world but he has never spent a > single one. Whoever Satoshi is he's got to be a brilliant but very odd man > who is totally uninterested in fame or great wealth. That's why I don't see > how Satoshi could be a group of people as some say, a group could never > keep a secret this big for this long, somebody would look at all those > Bitcoins and want to buy a new car. There is just a limited number of > people that strange. > He would have other wallets with much smaller amounts of Bitcoin that he could spend. It?s difficult to spend billions of dollars: almost anything an average person could want could be had with a few tens of millions. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 4 01:57:08 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 03 May 2019 18:57:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging Message-ID: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> For those of you who might have missed it, the 2016 Nobel Prize in Medicine or Physiology went to Yoshinori Ohsumi for his work elucidating the mechanisms of autophagy. Briefly, autophagy is when cells are induced to digest their own damaged proteins to salvage amino acids for other purposes. It is evolutionarily a highly conserved process that we share with creatures as primitive as yeast. Here is a very good open access article in Cell about the process of autophagy and its role in health and disease: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(11)01276-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867411012761%3Fshowall%3Dtrue What I have learned is that when you don't eat for at least 16 hours or so, your body starts the process of autophagy where it digests worn out and damaged proteins in order to use the amino acids to synthesize new fully-functional proteins as well as synthesize glucose for your brain and your liver through the process of gluconeogenesis. Autophagy peaks between 24 and 48 hours and then declines to a slow and steady rate, once your body switches to burning your fat stores to obtain ketones to fuel your brain instead of glucose from amino acids. The upshot of this is that short fasts of between 24 and 48 hours do wonders for your health potentially reversing some of the effects of aging caused by the build up of worn out proteins and organelles in cells. I have been experimenting on myself by eating every other day both to both lose weight and to induce autophagy and I can't help but notice beneficial effects. My mood is improved, I feel sharper and more energetic with a general sense of well-being. Moreover, I have lost about 15 pounds in three weeks this way. On my fasting days, I try to get by on black morning coffee and a multivitamin and then water alone for the rest of the day. But if I get too hungry, then I eat a tablespoon of pure fat like butter, olive oil, or coconut oil. But I avoid eating any carbs or protein for the whole time. On my eating days, I pretty much eat anything I feel like eating, including dessert. For those of you who don't need to lose weight, I would just eat as much pure fat as you can stomach but nothing else, on one or two days a week so you can induce autophagy without losing any weight. Then make it a point to eat extra protein after the one or two fat only days are finished so you don't lose muscle mass. Anyways, water only fasting every other day is working for me so I thought I would share. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 4 12:28:16 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 08:28:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:00 PM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > *He would have other wallets with much smaller amounts of Bitcoin that he > could spend.* > I think the only way that could be true would be if, as some people think, former Extromian List member Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto. The reason Satoshi Nakamoto has so many Bitcoins is that he didn't have to mine them, the system was just designed at the start with him having them. The first person to actually mine Bitcoins, and the second name on the blockchain after Satoshi Nakamoto, was Hal Finney; after that if Satoshi wanted more bitcoins he'd have to mine them just like everybody else. But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or something. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 4 12:43:27 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 08:43:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:00 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > > > *I have been experimenting on myself by eating every other day both to > both lose weight and to induce autophagy and I can't help but notice > beneficial effects. My mood is improved, I feel sharper and more energetic > with a general sense of well-being.* For whatever it's worth I noticed something like that myself, so over 40 years ago I got into the habit of only eating once a day. It seems to be working, I'm not dead yet and still feel pretty good. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 4 18:21:02 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 11:21:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <1700254115.172929.1556991787082@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1700254115.172929.1556991787082@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190504112102.Horde.Ey2PhwbqU5OpPDLkDnWmwwl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> John Clark wrote: >> I have been experimenting on myself by eating every other day? >> both to both lose weight and to induce autophagy and I can't help but? >> notice beneficial effects. My mood is improved, I feel sharper and? >> more energetic with a general sense of well-being. > > For whatever it's worth I noticed something like that myself, so > over 40 years ago I got into the habit of only eating once a day. It > seems to be working, I'm not dead yet and still feel pretty good. Do you completely abstain from ANY net carbs and proteins the whole time between meals including snacks and beverages? The point is to avoid any insulin release for the whole fasting period so as to produce as much glucagon as possible and promote gluconeogenesis and autophagy. Both digestible carbohydrates and proteins trigger insulin production, which inhibits glucagon, and the amino acid leucine is a powerful inhibitor of autophagy. Therefore, I try to avoid even gelatin capsules since gelatin is made from collagen which is a protein. Pure fat and pure fiber are the only two kinds of food that one can eat during the fast period. If you tried it, you might notice further improvements. Although I do sometimes take pure psyllium husks (not metamucil which has sugar and other additives) to stay regular and to avoid diarrhea from eating pure fat. Psyllium husks do contain about 200 milligrams of protein per tablespoon so I try not to use too much. For those of you who want to try to implement some variant of my experimental Life Extending Autophagic Diet, please consider your attempt as an experiment or open source beta test as well and share your experiences to the list like I am doing. Stuart LaForge From write2mark1 at gmail.com Sat May 4 13:06:09 2019 From: write2mark1 at gmail.com (mark M) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 06:06:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <1c255780-383b-4fee-8c17-b7f0e34a28d2@marks-iPhone-xs-return> Very interesting! Are there any negative side effects Stuart > > On May 3, 2019 at 6:57 PM, wrote: > > > > > For those of you who might have missed it, the 2016 Nobel Prize in > Medicine or Physiology went to Yoshinori Ohsumi for his work > elucidating the mechanisms of autophagy. Briefly, autophagy is when > cells are induced to digest their own damaged proteins to salvage > amino acids for other purposes. It is evolutionarily a highly > conserved process that we share with creatures as primitive as yeast. > > Here is a very good open access article in Cell about the process of > autophagy and its role in health and disease: > > https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(11)01276-1?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867411012761%3Fshowall%3Dtrue > > What I have learned is that when you don't eat for at least 16 hours > or so, your body starts the process of autophagy where it digests worn > out and damaged proteins in order to use the amino acids to synthesize > new fully-functional proteins as well as synthesize glucose for your > brain and your liver through the process of gluconeogenesis. Autophagy > peaks between 24 and 48 hours and then declines to a slow and steady > rate, once your body switches to burning your fat stores to obtain > ketones to fuel your brain instead of glucose from amino acids. > > The upshot of this is that short fasts of between 24 and 48 hours do > wonders for your health potentially reversing some of the effects of > aging caused by the build up of worn out proteins and organelles in > cells. I have been experimenting on myself by eating every other day > both to both lose weight and to induce autophagy and I can't help but > notice beneficial effects. My mood is improved, I feel sharper and > more energetic with a general sense of well-being. Moreover, I have > lost about 15 pounds in three weeks this way. > > On my fasting days, I try to get by on black morning coffee and a > multivitamin and then water alone for the rest of the day. But if I > get too hungry, then I eat a tablespoon of pure fat like butter, olive > oil, or coconut oil. But I avoid eating any carbs or protein for the > whole time. > > On my eating days, I pretty much eat anything I feel like eating, > including dessert. > > For those of you who don't need to lose weight, I would just eat as > much pure fat as you can stomach but nothing else, on one or two days > a week so you can induce autophagy without losing any weight. Then > make it a point to eat extra protein after the one or two fat only > days are finished so you don't lose muscle mass. > > Anyways, water only fasting every other day is working for me so I > thought I would share. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From randy.burkhardt at gmail.com Sat May 4 18:59:24 2019 From: randy.burkhardt at gmail.com (Randy Burkhardt) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 11:59:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190504112102.Horde.Ey2PhwbqU5OpPDLkDnWmwwl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1700254115.172929.1556991787082@mail.yahoo.com> <20190504112102.Horde.Ey2PhwbqU5OpPDLkDnWmwwl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Hi Stuart LaForge John Clark, I'm very interested in trying this. What would you say about your activity, exercise, and energy levels of your selves and then around your fast days? Thanks, RB On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 11:24 AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > John Clark wrote: > > > >> I have been experimenting on myself by eating every other day > >> both to both lose weight and to induce autophagy and I can't help but > >> notice beneficial effects. My mood is improved, I feel sharper and > >> more energetic with a general sense of well-being. > > > > For whatever it's worth I noticed something like that myself, so > > over 40 years ago I got into the habit of only eating once a day. It > > seems to be working, I'm not dead yet and still feel pretty good. > > Do you completely abstain from ANY net carbs and proteins the whole > time between meals including snacks and beverages? The point is to > avoid any insulin release for the whole fasting period so as to > produce as much glucagon as possible and promote gluconeogenesis and > autophagy. Both digestible carbohydrates and proteins trigger insulin > production, which inhibits glucagon, and the amino acid leucine is a > powerful inhibitor of autophagy. Therefore, I try to avoid even > gelatin capsules since gelatin is made from collagen which is a > protein. Pure fat and pure fiber are the only two kinds of food that > one can eat during the fast period. > > If you tried it, you might notice further improvements. > > Although I do sometimes take pure psyllium husks (not metamucil which > has sugar and other additives) to stay regular and to avoid diarrhea > from eating pure fat. Psyllium husks do contain about 200 milligrams > of protein per tablespoon so I try not to use too much. > > For those of you who want to try to implement some variant of my > experimental Life Extending Autophagic Diet, please consider your > attempt as an experiment or open source beta test as well and share > your experiences to the list like I am doing. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Randy (805) 268-7426 ringtones: www.randyburkhardt.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 4 20:16:27 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 13:16:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] evolution In-Reply-To: References: <005401d31176$d3c2f9e0$7b48eda0$@rainier66.com> <00c301d31192$239bd930$6ad38b90$@att.net> <009d01d311ea$cddd05b0$69971110$@att.net> <00b801d311ee$1d5896b0$5809c410$@att.net> Message-ID: <002101d502b6$41ba9cf0$c52fd6d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Jungwhan Park Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2019 4:03 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] evolution On 10 August 2017 at 16:34, spike wrote: I don?t know what the heck this is, but just as I was leaving for vacation BillK or someone posted a link to a species identification software site. I had insufficient bandwidth to download that at the time. If some kind soul knows that link, I am ready to play with it now. I might be able to find it again. After quick and intense search on Wikipedia, I came to a decision that it's very likely a campaea margaritata. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaea_margaritata http://bugguide.net/node/view/13845 And, as you might have noticed, the range described there does not explicitly include Washington. *I'm constantly on a journey of emptying useless(?) folders; this e-mail has been in the drafts folder for more than a year, so I'm sorry about this. \\ No worries, this was a fun reminder of a pleasant summer vacation from a coupla years ago. The critter in question was in fact a Campaea Margaritata. I vacation at Mount Rainier every summer. I take the time there to really observe the wildlife, so I am more familiar with the buggage at Mount Rainier than anywhere else except my own home area. This allows me to recognize an unusual critter when I observe one. That summer of 2017 was the only time before or since that I have seen a C. Margaritata at Mount Rainier. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat May 4 20:36:00 2019 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 06:36:00 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2019 at 10:31 pm, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:00 PM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > > *He would have other wallets with much smaller amounts of Bitcoin that >> he could spend.* >> > > I think the only way that could be true would be if, as some people think, > former Extromian List member Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto. The reason > Satoshi Nakamoto has so many Bitcoins is that he didn't have to mine them, > the system was just designed at the start with him having them. The first > person to actually mine Bitcoins, and the second name on the blockchain > after Satoshi Nakamoto, was Hal Finney; after that if Satoshi wanted more > bitcoins he'd have to mine them just like everybody else. > > But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins > to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he > could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with > his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those > Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or > something. > I think only the so-called genesis block of 50 Bitcoins was premined. In any case, it was clear that Satoshi wanted to remain anonymous from the start, and moving any coins from the original wallet would have compromised that. But once the system was going he could easily have set up multiple other wallets and started mining, and nothing would have connected those wallets to the original wallet. The main reason to do this would be if he thought that Bitcoin would one day be valuable. Hal Finney said he would leave his Bitcoins to his heirs. https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7jsp0s/one_of_the_last_posts_made_by_hal_finney_on/ -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat May 4 20:53:26 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 21:53:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 May 2019 at 03:01, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > > Anyways, water only fasting every other day is working for me so I > thought I would share. > This sounds very much like the Alternate-day Fasting Diet, which has become quite popular (among many other diet plans, of course). Search for - alternate day fasting diet - for many articles. I found a small study done in 2017 ----- Effect of Alternate-Day Fasting on Weight Loss, Weight Maintenance, and Cardioprotection Among Metabolically Healthy Obese Adults A Randomized Clinical Trial John F. Trepanowski, PhD1; Cynthia M. Kroeger, PhD1,2; Adrienne Barnosky, MD1; et al ----------- It doesn't seem to do any harm, but may not be better than a general calorie restriction diet. BillK From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 4 22:32:58 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 15:32:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <377520946.224124.1557007174099@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1c255780-383b-4fee-8c17-b7f0e34a28d2@marks-iPhone-xs-return> <377520946.224124.1557007174099@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190504153258.Horde.oLDBhiKmYDA4VvyJ2ghmBFe@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> mark M wrote: > Very interesting! > Are there any negative side effects Stuart?? There are a couple but only for the first couple of fasting days. Mostly just hunger pangs and a headache from low blood sugar. But these symptoms subsided for me by the time my first eating day rolled around and my second fasting day was much easier. The best way to get through the hunger pangs is to remind oneself how rare it is to feel true hunger in the industrialized world these days and savor the feeling as hearkening back to more primitive days. Eating pure fat will help the hunger pangs, aspirin or acetominophen will help the headache. Drink lots of water and get a lot of rest the first day. Sleeping is a good way to fast without trying. Eat a tablespoon of pure fat before bed, if you have trouble sleeping. The only other side effect of note was diarrhea on fast days due to eating too much fat which I solved by drinking a tablespoon of pure psyllium husks in a tall glass of water. This is only a short-term problem in my experience because as your body adjusts to the rythm, you will feel less hungry on fast days (and non fast days) so you won't eat as much pure fat on your fast days as when you first start. Also I would caution against depleting all of ones electrolytes on fasting days so supplement with high potassium foods on eating days and salting your food. Additional supplementation of electrolytes by dissolving sodium chloride and potassium chloride (NoSalt salt substitute) in water will help avoid cramping on high temperature fasting days or if you sweat a lot. That's pretty much it. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 4 22:42:34 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 15:42:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <1635572904.212709.1557007190427@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1700254115.172929.1556991787082@mail.yahoo.com> <20190504112102.Horde.Ey2PhwbqU5OpPDLkDnWmwwl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1635572904.212709.1557007190427@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190504154234.Horde.ArGBR7kTHUy3reGVxjnfrJH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Randy Burkhardt wrote: > Hi Stuart LaForge John Clark, I'm very interested in trying this.? > What would you say about your activity, exercise, and energy levels > of your selves and then around your fast days?? Thanks, RB Although I do feel energetic on fast days, I am a teacher who is on his feet for most of the day so I don't put any additional effort to work out on my fasting days. A couple of times a week I will workout semi-strenuously but usually only on eating days because I don't want to lose lean body mass. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 4 22:46:28 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:46:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] my own diet plan Message-ID: I'll toss in a bit of science here for those who are trying to lose weight: If you eat at certain times, your body will adapt and start the digestion process even before you start eating. This is a form of classical conditioning known as temporal conditioning. (The time is the CS and the body's responses are the CRs. You experience this as hunger. It's hard not to eat when you are hungry. So - eliminate the hunger. Do not eat big meals - graze. This is a popular diet. Or, eat at different times every day - if possible. These will cause the body to adapt such that there are no times when you feel really hungry - your Pavlovian reflexes are been extinguished. Want to stop snacking? If every afternoon at 2 you have a couple of cookies, you have doomed yourself to get hungry at that time, and only cold turkey will result in not getting hungry at that time. So you have to bite the bullet - and nothing else - if you want to stop your body's temporal conditioning. I think this will work perfectly with fasting. During the fast you will feel the effects of the temporal conditioning and may have a hard time not eating then. So get rid of the temporal conditioning. Perhaps before you start a fasting diet. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 4 23:01:21 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 16:01:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <930601145.207990.1557007211181@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <930601145.207990.1557007211181@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190504160121.Horde.RQMZYR6-Bc9EEF2NiHGIh2-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> BillK wrote: > >> >> Anyways, water only fasting every other day is working for me so I >> thought I would share. >> > > This sounds very much like the Alternate-day Fasting Diet, which has > become quite popular (among many other diet plans, of course). > Search for - alternate day fasting diet - for many articles. Actually it is the strictness of the fasting portion of LEAD that distinguishes from previous iterations of alternate day fasting. Most such ALternate Day Fasting (ADF) diets allow eating some protein or carbs during the fasting days. While one can still lose weight this way, losing weight is but a positive side effect of the Life Extending Autophagic Diet (LEAD), The primary goal of LEAD is to recycle your body's proteins completely through repeated cycles of autophagy which requires strictly limiting carbs and proteins to eating days and not fasting days. > I found a small study done in 2017 ----- > > Effect of Alternate-Day Fasting on Weight Loss, Weight Maintenance, > and Cardioprotection Among Metabolically Healthy Obese Adults? A > Randomized Clinical Trial > John F. Trepanowski, PhD1; Cynthia M. Kroeger, PhD1,2; Adrienne > Barnosky, MD1; et al > > > ----------- > > It doesn't seem to do any harm, but may not be better than a > general calorie restriction diet. I want to point out two things. First according to the study's methods: "Interventions Participants were randomized to 1 of 3 groups for 1 year: alternate-day fasting (25% of energy needs on fast days; 125% of energy needs on alternating ?feast days?), calorie restriction (75% of energy needs every day), or a no-intervention control. The trial involved a 6-month weight-loss phase followed by a 6-month weight-maintenance phase." 25% of energy needs on fast days means they ate a few hundred calories on their fast days and it was unlikely to be pure fat as it would be under my system. Secondly, if you look at Table I in the article, the Alternate Day Fasting group had lower insulin levels than did either the Calorie Restriction Group or the Control Group. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 4 23:53:06 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 19:53:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:00 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Anyways, water only fasting every other day is working for me so I > thought I would share > ### I never got fat in my life but over the years there was some creeping up of my weight. About two years ago I started intermittent fasting and now I am only 2 lb above my high school/college weight. I am definitely a fan of this habit. I found that fasting for 36 hours was rather taxing, I would cheat and end up eating lots of snacks before the "official" end of the fast. Now I eat one meal a day on weekdays, and this happens to be a breakfast, with absolutely no snacks in between. I find it is quite easy, I don't have to exert much self-control to keep it going. On weekends I pig out, eating huge ribeyes smothered in butter and blue cheese. Of course, the quality of your one meal of the day is still very important - it should have low glycemic index, low average caloric density, be high in nutrients including animal protein and fat. I am finding that a very large green salad (arugula, kale, spinach) with fresh tomatoes, avocado and various combinations of sardines, other meats, aged cheeses, nuts, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, fresh herbs, berries and other goodies (about 800 - 900 calories) followed by a Panera pastry keep me satisfied until the next breakfast. Regarding the role of autophagy - this is indeed a crucial maintenance process which becomes suppressed by the continuous ad lib feeding typical of modern lifestyles. Humans have not evolved under conditions of continuous food availability and our metabolism is not adapted to it. However, I doubt that recycling of proteins is really what matters in autophagy - my guess is that the real mechanism responsible for aging retardation by fasting is actually mitophagy, or the disposal of mitochondria. This process selectively removes metabolically defective mitochondria and their mutated genomes that are responsible for metabolic defects, thus slowing down the long-term accumulation of mitochondrial mutations, which is one of the key mediators of aging. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun May 5 09:26:14 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 11:26:14 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He could have just given his private keys to Alcor. On 2019. May 4., Sat at 14:31, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 8:00 PM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > > > *He would have other wallets with much smaller amounts of Bitcoin that >> he could spend.* >> > > I think the only way that could be true would be if, as some people think, > former Extromian List member Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto. The reason > Satoshi Nakamoto has so many Bitcoins is that he didn't have to mine them, > the system was just designed at the start with him having them. The first > person to actually mine Bitcoins, and the second name on the blockchain > after Satoshi Nakamoto, was Hal Finney; after that if Satoshi wanted more > bitcoins he'd have to mine them just like everybody else. > > But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins > to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he > could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with > his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those > Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or > something. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun May 5 11:55:06 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 05 May 2019 04:55:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <1879683880.291175.1557052248674@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1879683880.291175.1557052248674@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190505045506.Horde.PQGR7TssFbnCBJvq1DEB9GV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: [snip] > Regarding the role of autophagy - this is indeed a crucial > maintenance process which becomes suppressed by the continuous ad > lib feeding typical of modern lifestyles. Humans have not evolved > under conditions of continuous food availability and our metabolism > is not adapted to it. Agreed. Many paleo diet practitioners put too much emphasis on eating what early humans ate, completely ignoring the timing of how often they ate it. > However, I doubt that recycling of proteins is really what matters > in autophagy - my guess is that the real mechanism responsible for > aging retardation by fasting is actually mitophagy, or the disposal > of mitochondria. This process selectively removes metabolically > defective mitochondria and their mutated genomes that are > responsible for metabolic defects, thus slowing down the long-term > accumulation of mitochondrial mutations, which is one of the key > mediators of aging. Well in the cases of age-related diseases like Alzheimer's, where damaged proteins (beta-amyloid plaques) are implicated, the benefit of protein recycling is pretty cut and dry. But the selective removal of defective mitochodria is certainly no less important and could very well be the primary anti-aging mechanism. Fasting and autophagy have many complex downstream effects including cross-talk with apoptotic signalling pathways involved in tumor supression. Mitochondria and mitophagy might very well be one of the mediators of that cross-talk between the autophagic and apoptotic pathways. https://www.nature.com/articles/nrm3735 Relevant portion: "Autophagy increases the threshold of stress required for the induction of cell death by several mechanisms. These include the selective removal of damaged, potentially apoptosis-inducing mitochondria or that of other potentially lethal organelles, such as damaged zymogen granules in the exocrine pancreas. Autophagy can also lead to the selective elimination of pro-apoptotic signal transducers." That passage suggests that autophagy is an attempt to directly prolong the life of individual cells by removing and replacing damaged components including mitochondria. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 6 03:09:37 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 23:09:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >> something. >> >> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of matter in the known universe... Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 6 03:11:33 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 23:11:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: <20190505045506.Horde.PQGR7TssFbnCBJvq1DEB9GV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1879683880.291175.1557052248674@mail.yahoo.com> <20190505045506.Horde.PQGR7TssFbnCBJvq1DEB9GV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 7:58 AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Well in the cases of age-related diseases like Alzheimer's, where > damaged proteins (beta-amyloid plaques) are implicated, the benefit of > protein recycling is pretty cut and dry. ### The amyloid hypothesis of AD is one of my pet peeves. There is absolutely no high-quality evidence that amyloid is responsible for sporadic senile dementia of the Alzheimer's type, although it does cause a subset of early onset familial AD cases. Many billions of dollars have been wasted on clinical trials of dozens of different methods of removing amyloid or preventing amyloid formation and all of them failed, which is not surprising to me but must have been a slow-moving shock to the thousands of researchers who got swept up in the amyloid cult. Why didn't they stop for a moment and think? The amyloid hypothesis is a just-so story made up by Selkoe and Hardy, with no evidence to support it, and yet it became a "science is in", done-deal article of faith. Idiots took mutated genes from three different inherited diseases, put into a single mouse, saw it get stupider with age and triumphantly proclaimed it's a valid model of sporadic dementia without mutations in any of these genes. It just boggles my mind how sheeple-like researchers can be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon May 6 16:18:29 2019 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 10:18:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that you pointed that out, surely some burglars ar going after that piece of paper. On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 9:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >>> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >>> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >>> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>> something. >>> >>> > ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, > there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of > Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of > matter in the known universe... > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 6 16:45:22 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 11:45:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Frazz in the comics Message-ID: "If doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, what is the definition of practice." bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 6 17:38:43 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 10:38:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from Frazz in the comics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Doing similar things but not the exact same thing over and over, identifying what doesn't work, and adjusting each next attempt to do better. It's a subtle but very important difference. Lots of people miss that middle step. On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 9:48 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > "If doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is > the definition of insanity, what is the definition of practice." > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 6 17:39:18 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 10:39:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has anyone else noticed that Max has been rather quiet, at least on this list, for a while? On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 9:22 AM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Now that you pointed that out, surely some burglars ar going after that > piece of paper. > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 9:11 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >>>> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >>>> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >>>> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>> something. >>>> >>>> >> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >> matter in the known universe... >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 6 19:02:38 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 12:02:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01d5043e$464a3710$d2dea530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Brent Allsop Subject: Re: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto >?Now that you pointed that out, surely some burglars ar going after that piece of paper. Too late Brent, already took it. I had my bride distract Max, slipped around behind, now I own billions, so treat me with respect. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 6 19:14:24 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 12:14:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from Frazz in the comics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was going to say the best practice (I play piano) is where you try to be hyperaware to correct mistakes.... And some practice is just to warm up or keep skills in play. Not practicing in the latter case makes whatever it is decay much faster. Then again, the spirit of the quote is spot on. I think the issue isn?t just what one is doing but everything else. Think of playing poker. The correct plays will lose though lose less often on average than incorrect ones, but that?s because the rest of the game is not exactly the same each time. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On May 6, 2019, at 10:38 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Doing similar things but not the exact same thing over and over, identifying what doesn't work, and adjusting each next attempt to do better. > > It's a subtle but very important difference. Lots of people miss that middle step. > >> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 9:48 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> "If doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity, what is the definition of practice." >> >> bill w > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon May 6 20:35:50 2019 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 13:35:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >>> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >>> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >>> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>> something. >>> >>> > ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, > there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of > Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of > matter in the known universe... > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon May 6 20:48:42 2019 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 14:48:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to Crypto News , he has between 700,000 and 800,000 bitcoins. 700,00 * $5800 = $4,060,000,000 So give $80K / person, that could preserve over 50K people. Would that be enough to preserve anyone who wanted to be preserved? On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 2:38 PM Max More wrote: > I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the > very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >>>> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >>>> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >>>> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>> something. >>>> >>>> >> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >> matter in the known universe... >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > > Max More, PhD > Strategic Philosopher > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 6 23:22:04 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 19:22:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? Message-ID: Trump floats the idea of delaying the election by 2 years John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 6 23:24:30 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:24:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Max! Long time no hear. By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be burglars, right? ;) On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More wrote: > I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the > very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >> >>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins >>>> to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he >>>> could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with >>>> his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>> something. >>>> >>>> >> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >> matter in the known universe... >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > > Max More, PhD > Strategic Philosopher > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon May 6 23:32:11 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:32:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> On May 6, 2019, at 4:22 PM, John Clark wrote: > > Trump floats the idea of delaying the election by 2 years I would call you less paranoid than monomaniacal. ;) How likely do you believe he?ll get his way? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 7 00:15:09 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:15:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:44 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Trump floats the idea of delaying the election by 2 years > > > > > *> I would call you less paranoid than monomaniacal. ;) How likely do you > believe he?ll get his way?* > I honestly don't know if Trump will become a dictator, but I think there is a pretty good chance he will try, and 53% of Republicans would be OK with it if he did. The Republican party is now the de-facto fascist party of the USA. And even a failed attempt would be a nightmare of a sort not seen since the early 1860s. 52% of Republicans would support postponing 2020 election John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Tue May 7 00:49:51 2019 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:49:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Max, How can I buy stock of your company? On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:34 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > Hey Max! Long time no hear. > > By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be > burglars, right? ;) > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More wrote: > >> I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the >> very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < >> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>> >>>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his >>>>> Bitcoins to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and >>>>> if he could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them >>>>> with his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>>> something. >>>>> >>>>> >>> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >>> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >>> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >>> matter in the known universe... >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Max More, PhD >> Strategic Philosopher >> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader >> President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 7 01:10:32 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:10:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008901d50471$abcbbf90$03633eb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Angel Z. Lopez Subject: Re: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto Max, How can I buy stock of your company? Stock schmock, I want a shot at that safe. You guys distract him by having him tour you through the dewars, get someone playing rap on a really loud boom box, I will bring up a bulldozer, smash the back wall, scoop up the safe, away we go, split the proceeds after I dynamite it open. spike On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:34 PM Adrian Tymes > wrote: Hey Max! Long time no hear. By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be burglars, right? ;) On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More > wrote: I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco > wrote: But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or something. ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of matter in the known universe... Rafal _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, The Transhumanist Reader http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books &ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 7 01:36:13 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:36:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 6, 2019, at 5:15 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:44 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >>> Trump floats the idea of delaying the election by 2 years >> >> > I would call you less paranoid than monomaniacal. ;) How likely do you believe he?ll get his way? > > I honestly don't know if Trump will become a dictator, but I think there is a pretty good chance he will try, and 53% of Republicans would be OK with it if he did. Given that Republicans make up only around 24% of US voters, that means they simply won?t have enough support. > The Republican party is now the de-facto fascist party of the USA. And even a failed attempt would be a nightmare of a sort not seen since the early 1860s. > > 52% of Republicans would support postponing 2020 election Note that that story is from 2017. Let?s look at something I recall seeing a few years back: https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/286105-majority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama How one frames these questions and who gets asked plays a big role in what kind of scary answer you get. (I saw a recent informal online poll asking if Arabic numerals should be taught in school. Imagine how that section of the populace which is unaware of where standard numerals in the West came from reacted. ;) In my view, both parties are fascist in many ways, especially accepting fascist economic and monetary policies and an aggressive militant foreign policy. (A running joke is where folks say they?re glad Hillary isn?t president else the US would be have troops in Syria and all over Africa plus would be supporting the Saudis in Yemen. The problem with US mainstream politics is it?s so far to the Right in many issues: crime, war, immigration, zoning, recreational drugs, etc. Failure to admit this and merely myopically focusing on who's in the Oval Office now is most of the problem. Will you at least admit that the US would be much better off with far less executive power regardless of who?s in office? Anyhow, I wouldn?t panic just yet. And panicking here is extremely unlikely to do anything about it. Yeah, I think we all know how you feel about Trump by now. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech101 at gmail.com Tue May 7 01:46:22 2019 From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 11:46:22 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: <008901d50471$abcbbf90$03633eb0$@rainier66.com> References: <008901d50471$abcbbf90$03633eb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Perhaps Satoshi is already secretly cryopreserved at Alcor - along with the key to his famous bitcoin wallet - once he is revived (and his key is thawed), he will then begin withdrawing his fortune or lack thereof depending on bitcoins level of success, which also depends on no successful dewar robbers infiltrating and finding Satoshi's key. I'm sorry if I'm giving people bad ideas. Kind regards, Adam A. Ford AU Mobile +61 421 979977 Chair - Science, Technology & the Future - (Meetup / Facebook / YouTube / Instagram / Twitter ) - Convener, H+ Australia | Singularity Summit Australia "A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels." - Albert Einstein, May 1946) On Tue, 7 May 2019 at 11:12, wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Angel Z. Lopez > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto > > > > > > > > > > > > Max, > > How can I buy stock of your company? > > > > > > > > > > Stock schmock, I want a shot at that safe. You guys distract him by > having him tour you through the dewars, get someone playing rap on a really > loud boom box, I will bring up a bulldozer, smash the back wall, scoop up > the safe, away we go, split the proceeds after I dynamite it open. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:34 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Hey Max! Long time no hear. > > > > By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be > burglars, right? ;) > > > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More wrote: > > I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the > very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. > > > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his Bitcoins > to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and if he > could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them with > his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those > Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or > something. > > > > > > ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, > there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of > Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of > matter in the known universe... > > > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > > Max More, PhD > > Strategic Philosopher > > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 7 03:43:19 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:43:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006a01d50487$03b81770$0b284650$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan >?How one frames these questions and who gets asked plays a big role in what kind of scary answer you get? Think of some questions that could be asked to us. Just imagine some of the scary answers could come out. >? merely myopically focusing on who's in the Oval Office now is most of the problem. ?Dan Ja I have often considered it nearly irrelevant and getting moreso. The US legal system is so well established with our congress known to be out campaigning rather than modifying law in even years makes it unlikely that major change to the system will happen until the federal government can no longer pay its bills. We have seen congress and the executive cancel each other, while business prospers like never before. Now the precedent has been set: regardless of who gets elected where, we have seen the development of the tools for the legal system to be used as a weapon for both sides against the other, effectively nullifying government. Now it just doesn?t much matter which party is running what. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 7 05:50:38 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 01:50:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi. On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 8:18 PM John Clark wrote: > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:44 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: > >> Trump floats the idea of delaying the election by 2 years >> >> >> >> >> *> I would call you less paranoid than monomaniacal. ;) How likely do you >> believe he?ll get his way?* >> > > I honestly don't know if Trump will become a dictator, but I think there > is a pretty good chance he will try, and 53% of Republicans would be OK > with it if he did. The Republican party is now the de-facto fascist party > of the USA. And even a failed attempt would be a nightmare of a sort not > seen since the early 1860s. > > 52% of Republicans would support postponing 2020 election > > > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 7 12:55:22 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 08:55:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 9:39 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: >> I honestly don't know if Trump will become a dictator, but I think there >> is a pretty good chance he will try, and 53% of Republicans would be OK >> with it if he did. > > > *> Given that Republicans make up only around 24% of US voters, that > means they simply won?t have enough support.* > Dictators don't gain power because a majority of people are in favor of him but because a hard core minority are willing to kill and die for him . > 52% of Republicans would support postponing 2020 election >>> >>> >> >> Note that that story is from 2017. Let?s look at something I recall >> seeing a few years back: > > > > https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/286105-majority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama > The difference is Obama didn't publicly endorse the idea, Trump did. And before the presidential election Trump said the election would be rigged and even after he won he prove to be a sore winner, that wasn't the case with Obama. *> In my view, both parties are fascist in many ways,* > If Bernie Sanders wins he could very well turn out to be a bad presadent but that's OK we've had plenty of those before and the USA is still not a hellhole; Trump is already a bad presadent but the thing that scares me is he's well on his way to becoming a bad dictator. *> especially accepting fascist economic and monetary policies* > Yeah bad presidents might tax you too much, but not enough to prevent you from buying the newest iPhone, however I'm talking about something qualitatively very different. Fascist dictators cancel elections, lead chants to imprison their political opponents, try to change the law so they can sue newspapers and close them down when they write articles against them, jail reporters who don't cooperate, order TV networks to stop satirizing them, tell police not to be gentle when they arrest somebody, and develop a cult following that will believe anything they say, such as vaccines cause autism or windmills cause cancer. I don't use the word "fascist" lightly, I'm not in the habit, as some on the left are, of calling anyone who's politics I disagree with a fascist, but when it comes to Trump supporters I sincerely think the word is justified. Today it's foolish to claim there is a moral equivalence between the two major political parties, at one time there was one (and I was a Republican for most of my life) but there is no equivalence anymore. The Democrats have done stuff that is very unwise and unfair but it would be going way too far to call them fascist. A fascist political party is as bad as things can get, the sort of thing you saw in Europe in the 1930s, and things are not currently as bad as things can get but only because the American Fascist Party (aka Republicans) still has some competition from a very large sometimes silly and often dysfunctional non-fascist party. *> Will you at least admit that the US would be much better off with far > less executive power regardless of who?s in office? * > *YES!!!* *> Anyhow, I wouldn?t panic just yet. And panicking here is extremely > unlikely to do anything about it. * > If you can keep your head when everybody around you is losing his then you probably don?t understand the situation. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 7 13:03:33 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 06:03:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b101d504d5$46eadd40$d4c097c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? >?It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi? -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC My apologies Rafal, I will knock it off with the schemes to steal Max?s safe with a bulldozer. Oh wait, you meant that other business with that guy who lives in the White House (can?t remember his name at the moment.) Ja, that does get a bit tedious. At times it is unclear if that crowd is persevering or perseverating. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:05:02 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 09:05:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: *> It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi.* > I'm curious Rafal, would you be OK with it if on Wednesday November 4 2020, the day after Trump lost the election, Trump announced that he had new information that the election was fraudulent and so was nullifying the results and would organize a new election at some unspecified future date? John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 7 13:09:12 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 06:09:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c701d504d6$10c7a710$3256f530$@rainier66.com> John, this entire post is tending toward perseverating. We have a list member who might be able to offer guidance on that: BillW. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 5:55 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 9:39 PM Dan TheBookMan > wrote: >> I honestly don't know if Trump will become a dictator, but I think there is a pretty good chance he will try, and 53% of Republicans would be OK with it if he did. > Given that Republicans make up only around 24% of US voters, that means they simply won?t have enough support. Dictators don't gain power because a majority of people are in favor of him but because a hard core minority are willing to kill and die for him . 52% of Republicans would support postponing 2020 election Note that that story is from 2017. Let?s look at something I recall seeing a few years back: https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/286105-majority-of-democrats-want-third-term-for-obama The difference is Obama didn't publicly endorse the idea, Trump did. And before the presidential election Trump said the election would be rigged and even after he won he prove to be a sore winner, that wasn't the case with Obama. > In my view, both parties are fascist in many ways, If Bernie Sanders wins he could very well turn out to be a bad presadent but that's OK we've had plenty of those before and the USA is still not a hellhole; Trump is already a bad presadent but the thing that scares me is he's well on his way to becoming a bad dictator. > especially accepting fascist economic and monetary policies Yeah bad presidents might tax you too much, but not enough to prevent you from buying the newest iPhone, however I'm talking about something qualitatively very different. Fascist dictators cancel elections, lead chants to imprison their political opponents, try to change the law so they can sue newspapers and close them down when they write articles against them, jail reporters who don't cooperate, order TV networks to stop satirizing them, tell police not to be gentle when they arrest somebody, and develop a cult following that will believe anything they say, such as vaccines cause autism or windmills cause cancer. I don't use the word "fascist" lightly, I'm not in the habit, as some on the left are, of calling anyone who's politics I disagree with a fascist, but when it comes to Trump supporters I sincerely think the word is justified. Today it's foolish to claim there is a moral equivalence between the two major political parties, at one time there was one (and I was a Republican for most of my life) but there is no equivalence anymore. The Democrats have done stuff that is very unwise and unfair but it would be going way too far to call them fascist. A fascist political party is as bad as things can get, the sort of thing you saw in Europe in the 1930s, and things are not currently as bad as things can get but only because the American Fascist Party (aka Republicans) still has some competition from a very large sometimes silly and often dysfunctional non-fascist party. > Will you at least admit that the US would be much better off with far less executive power regardless of who?s in office? YES!!! > Anyhow, I wouldn?t panic just yet. And panicking here is extremely unlikely to do anything about it. If you can keep your head when everybody around you is losing his then you probably don?t understand the situation. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:29:22 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 09:29:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: John- What are you going to find to lose your mind over once Trump is out of office? My offer of a wager regarding him serving a maximum of two terms remains open. I will also make another wager that if he loses in 2020 that there will be peaceful transition of power. Best, Dylan On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:16 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > *> It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi.* >> > > I'm curious Rafal, would you be OK with it if on Wednesday November 4 > 2020, the day after Trump lost the election, Trump announced that he had > new information that the election was fraudulent and so was nullifying the > results and would organize a new election at some unspecified future date? > > John K Clark > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 7 13:40:41 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 09:40:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:36 AM Dylan Distasio wrote: * > I will also make another wager that if he loses in 2020 that there will > be peaceful transition of power. * > I hope you're right, I hope it turns out I am paranoid. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 7 13:54:51 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 06:54:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01d504dc$71c46430$554d2c90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:36 AM Dylan Distasio > wrote: > I will also make another wager that if he loses in 2020 that there will be peaceful transition of power. I hope you're right, I hope it turns out I am paranoid. John K Clark John are you offering odds on that last part? {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue May 7 16:09:10 2019 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 09:09:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I said that I would keep a valuable piece of paper in the safe (or otherwise very well hidden), but NOT that such a piece of paper exists. It does not. On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 4:24 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > Hey Max! Long time no hear. > > By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be > burglars, right? ;) > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More wrote: > >> I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the >> very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. >> >> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < >> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>> >>>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his >>>>> Bitcoins to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and >>>>> if he could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them >>>>> with his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>>> something. >>>>> >>>>> >>> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >>> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >>> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >>> matter in the known universe... >>> >>> Rafal >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Max More, PhD >> Strategic Philosopher >> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader >> President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Tue May 7 16:10:18 2019 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 09:10:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Satoshi Nakamoto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Angel: You can't because Alcor is a 501(c)3 tax-exempt non-profit. No one owns it. It's ultimately governed by the board of directors. On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 5:49 PM Angel Z. Lopez wrote: > Max, > How can I buy stock of your company? > > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:34 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> Hey Max! Long time no hear. >> >> By saying this in public, that safe is of course a trap for would-be >> burglars, right? ;) >> >> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 1:39 PM Max More wrote: >> >>> I would never leave such a valuable piece of paper anywhere outside the >>> very heavy safe that's locked in the Records Room. >>> >>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < >>> rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 5:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: >>>> >>>>> But if Hal Finney was Satoshi Nakamoto why didn't he donate his >>>>>> Bitcoins to Alcor when he died in 2014? After all he knew he was dying and >>>>>> if he could trust Alcor to freeze his body you'd think he could trust them >>>>>> with his Bitcoins. And if Satoshi never had any intention of spending those >>>>>> Bitcoins why did he set it up that way? Maybe he got hit by a bus or >>>>>> something. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ### Wait... maybe Alcor does have the bitcoins?!! Being cagey about it, >>>> there is a little piece of paper with scribbled numbers at the bottom of >>>> Max's left desk drawer... The most concentrated piece of wealth per gram of >>>> matter in the known universe... >>>> >>>> Rafal >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Max More, PhD >>> Strategic Philosopher >>> Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* >>> >>> http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader >>> President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 7 19:17:20 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 14:17:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day - liberty Message-ID: Men love liberty because it protects them from control and humiliation from others, and thus affords them the possibility of dignity. They loathe liberty because it throws them back on their own abilities and resources, and thus confronts them with the possibility of insignificance. Thomas Szasz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed May 8 01:00:02 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 21:00:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:05 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > *> It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi.* >> > > I'm curious Rafal, would you be OK with it if on Wednesday November 4 > 2020, the day after Trump lost the election, Trump announced that he had > new information that the election was fraudulent and so was nullifying the > results and would organize a new election at some unspecified future date? > > John K Clark > > > ### There are certain subjects that simply should not be discussed with any seriousness. This includes ESP, homeopathy, diverse Trump-related items, the monster of Loch Ness. The less said the better, unless you are joking. But you are not joking. I like reading your stuff when you write about black holes and gravity waves and suchlike. Everything will be OK, at least for some values of OK. He is just a blip on the graph. Rafal PS - here is something I wrote to a friend today, just so you can see what I think about politics: "It is the continuation of war by other means. It?s a war of words where every word is a soldier and truth is the first victim. You can only choose a side that is the lesser evil and once you make this choice the role for reason and conscience is over. After that there are no enemies on your side and everyone on the other side is an enemy. Every mass media speaker is a mass media speaker because he adheres to the above rule and therefore you must protect your mind from your enemy?s poison. There is no more right and wrong only us and them. Remember, every word is a soldier and truth died a long time ago. This is why I don?t vote - but I still think there?s the lesser evil" (with some turns of phrase lifted from Eli's writings) Applied (i.e. local and current) political thought necessarily corrupts attempts at finding truth, because the objective of daily politics is winning, not being correct. This is why in a recreational setting such as our email list, where finding the truth of this or that matter cheers the soul, applied political thought feels so out of place. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 8 01:50:44 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:50:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] everything will be "ok" was: RE: Do you still think I'm paranoid? Message-ID: <008e01d50540$73fe9e50$5bfbdaf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Subject: Re: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:05 AM John Clark > wrote: On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 1:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > It's insane stuff like this that keeps me off Exi. I'm curious Rafal? John K Clark ### ?Everything will be OK, at least for some values of OK. He is just a blip on the graph?Rafal Ok? OK he says? Rafal, the sheer magnitude of understatement rivals observing that Apple has made money. Things will be so OK, so extremely beyond OK, words fail me, which seldom happens. Look at the astonishing discovery in just the last three years: we detected a gravity wave. I shall never forget the mind-boggling awesome feeling, February 2016, of sitting in a packed auditorium at Stanford Linear Accelerator, 600 seats filled, people standing in the aisles everywhere, straining to hear as Professor Reitze laid out all the evidence that the signal detected on 14 September 2015 was the real deal. His evidence convinced me of something I had flatly refused to allow myself to believe, for fear it was all a mistake. But it was no mistake. Then the professor explained that they had expressed the gravity wave as a sound: https://www.livescience.com/53694-sound-of-merging-black-holes.html The collectively feeling of awe and wonder at that bwip sound in that auditorium was so thick, one could practically scoop it up with net. Since then, we have learned that the 14 Sept 2015 event wasn?t some crazy fluke. We have learned the universe is awash in gravity waves. And we? a most fortunate species? have figured out how to detect them. Of all of this remarkably fortunate species, there is a small subset of humanity fortunate enough to have had access to the right educational opportunities, the right contacts, the right everything? to get to experience and deeply appreciate the astonishing breakthrough. John, you and I are among that lucky few. There are a few others, the usual suspects who really dig this kind of thing, Stuart, Adrian, the others. Of all the lifeforms, we are among that most fortunate species and of all those, we are here where we can do cool stuff like attend science lectures any time we want, and of all those who attend science lectures, we are among the lucky few who get the whole gravity wave thing, WOWsers! Now, considering all that? how how how? even if one works at it? can one possibly be pessimistic? We aren?t going to nuke ourselves. We aren?t experiencing societal chaos. We are not starving, we are not sick. We are those lucky lifeforms who are living in the right place and time where we can come to a new and profound mind-blowing understanding of what happened way back when it all started. Think about it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 8 01:50:59 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 21:50:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do you still think I'm paranoid? In-Reply-To: References: <1D211CE6-FA73-4242-ABFE-9DC259D70883@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 9:04 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: *> "It is the continuation of war by other means. It?s a war of words where > every word is a soldier and truth is the first victim. You can only choose > a side that is the lesser evil * > But that's not just true for politics and questions of morality its even true for physics. There is no hope in finding THE TRUTH but we can find new theories that are less wrong than older theories. And that endeavor is not in my opinion anything to be ashamed of. > *This is why I don?t vote - but I still think there?s the lesser evil"* > That's the part i don't understand, yes none of the candidates are perfect human beings with policies that will produce perfect justice, but some humans are less imperfect and less unjust than others. Ii think the perfect should not be the enemy of the good and that's why I do vote. > > *Everything will be OK, at least for some values of OK. He is just a blip > on the graph.* I sure hope you're right but I'm scared, it seems to me that damn blip is getting bigger. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 8 16:45:17 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 12:45:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy and Aging In-Reply-To: References: <20190503185708.Horde.gQlVMHKOGntyBEsO9xUKhAY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1700254115.172929.1556991787082@mail.yahoo.com> <20190504112102.Horde.Ey2PhwbqU5OpPDLkDnWmwwl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 4:11 PM Randy Burkhardt wrote: > Hi Stuart LaForge John Clark, I'm very interested in trying this. What > would you say about your activity, exercise, and energy levels of your > selves and then around your fast days? Thanks, RB > I also intermittently fast and I'm a rower. We do sprint races in the spring and summer and endurance races in the fall. Once you become adapted to burning your own fat for energy you find that endurance efforts are easily supported. Sprints are OK, too. Overall, my energy level and mental focus are better when fasting. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 9 14:12:56 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 09:12:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] practice Message-ID: Adrian pointed out that one doesn't just do the same thing over and over, but changes so that improvement can occur. Fine. But musicians I know do do the same thing over and over: scales and arpeggios, for instance. They know the notes; they know the finger movements. And yet they keep doing the same thing. A violinist friend of mine quoted this: "If I don't practice for a day, I know it. If I don't practice for two days, you'll know it. If I don't practice for three days, everyone will know it." There is nothing about memory in my brain that can explain this. Athletes do the same thing over and over, and if they miss a few days of practice, they question whether they'll be sharp for the performance. And this applies to athletes who have been doing it for many years. I do know that every time you pull a memory of any kind out and experience it, you put it back stronger than it was, which brings up the question of just how strong can it be and how fast memory deteriorates. I dunno. Go figure. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 10 02:39:03 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 22:39:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Message-ID: Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today: While a culture change towards a nirvana of reason, compassion and good cheer would be nice, I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. We are all human, therefore fallen. Evolution optimizes for individual survival in a social context, and the payoff matrix of this game, given the very physical underpinnings of our reality, does reward mendacity, manipulativeness and mayhem under many circumstances. It's a simple fact that lying jerks exist, that they flock to power, and that coalitions of jerks controlling sheeple have been in constant warfare since time immemorial. As long as lying jerks exist and are able to gain power, the underlying mechanism at the core of social dysfunction will not change. Sure, the content of what lying jerks say changes all the time - it used to be that they spoke a lot about piety and god, when the social Zeitgeist was of a sacerdotal persuasion. Now lying jerks are staying out of the pew and flock to the NGO, the campus and to Twitter. The old Soviets wanted to create the homo sovieticus, well-adapted to run in the vanguard of the proletariat. They failed but they were onto something: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A society made of humans will necessarily simmer with constant low-level warfare of everybody against everybody, with occasional catastrophic upheavals. But technology will come to the rescue - genetically engineered Good People will eventually replace the wild type. I hope. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 10 13:23:23 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 06:23:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shoulda seen it coming... Message-ID: <005f01d50733$8b4c0800$a1e41800$@rainier66.com> As we anticipated some time ago, the obvious use for car auto-driver systems would be to entertain one?s sweetheart while on the highway. I don?t see why not: you get privacy out there on the road, not much else to do, no need to rush, and so on. So this porno star and her boyfriend made a video of themselves carrying on in one of Elon Musk?s creations, which went to number 1 on Pornhub, which means Tesla has achieved the pinnacle of advertising without spending a dime, achieving the only position more coveted by advertisers than the first commercial break in the third quarter of the Super Bowl, all without cost. Naturally the businessman Musk is taking full advantage of this lucky event with his tweets: Elon Musk ?@elonmusk ? 16h Turns out there?s more ways to use Autopilot than we imagined Soon followed by the obvious: Elon Musk ?@elonmusk Shoulda seen it coming ? 53.9K 2:07 PM - May 9, 2019 Twitter Ads info and privacy 3,542 people are talking about this {8^D Badump bump. That video will sell a million Teslas. What a fun world we live in. How can anyone be pessimistic? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 10 13:42:35 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 06:42:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] shoulda seen it coming... In-Reply-To: <005f01d50733$8b4c0800$a1e41800$@rainier66.com> References: <005f01d50733$8b4c0800$a1e41800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d50736$3a69d360$af3d7a20$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: shoulda seen it coming... >?As we anticipated some time ago, the obvious use for car auto-driver systems would be to entertain one?s sweetheart while on the highway? Possible consequence: other motorists would be struck by the visual impact, perhaps becoming distracted from their task and causing them to drift out of their lane. One can imagine the motorists uttering a startled ejaculation (definition 2) which now would have a whole new meaning: Fucking Tesla drivers! spike Elon Musk ?@elonmusk ? 16h Turns out there?s more ways to use Autopilot than we imagined Soon followed by the obvious: Elon Musk ?@elonmusk Shoulda seen it coming ? 53.9K 2:07 PM - May 9, 2019 Twitter Ads info and privacy 3,542 people are talking about this {8^D Badump bump. That video will sell a million Teslas. What a fun world we live in. How can anyone be pessimistic? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 10 14:24:29 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 10:24:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today: > > While a culture change towards a nirvana of reason, compassion and good > cheer would be nice, I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. > > We are all human, therefore fallen. > Fallen? Sinners? I'd say we're all human and carry evolutionary baggage. Evolution optimizes for individual survival in a social context, and the > payoff matrix of this game, given the very physical underpinnings of our > reality, does reward mendacity, manipulativeness and mayhem under many > circumstances. > > It's a simple fact that lying jerks exist, that they flock to power, and > that coalitions of jerks controlling sheeple have been in constant warfare > since time immemorial. As long as lying jerks exist and are able to gain > power, the underlying mechanism at the core of social dysfunction will not > change. Sure, the content of what lying jerks say changes all the time - it > used to be that they spoke a lot about piety and god, when the social > Zeitgeist was of a sacerdotal persuasion. Now lying jerks are staying out > of the pew and flock to the NGO, the campus and to Twitter. > > The old Soviets wanted to create the homo sovieticus, well-adapted to run > in the vanguard of the proletariat. They failed but they were onto > something: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A society made > of humans will necessarily simmer with constant low-level warfare of > everybody against everybody, with occasional catastrophic upheavals. But > technology will come to the rescue - genetically engineered Good People > will eventually replace the wild type. I hope. > I'm not sure how you go from a world of wild humans to a world of man made Good People, but we're a way off being able to create Good People. And a single Bad Person could easily take over a planet full of Good People. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri May 10 16:55:08 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 17:55:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 15:28, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> >> Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today: >> >> While a culture change towards a nirvana of reason, compassion and good cheer would be nice, I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. >> >> We are all human, therefore fallen. > > Fallen? Sinners? I'd say we're all human and carry evolutionary baggage. > >> Evolution optimizes for individual survival in a social context, and the payoff matrix of this game, given the very physical underpinnings of our reality, does reward mendacity, manipulativeness and mayhem under many circumstances. >> >> It's a simple fact that lying jerks exist, that they flock to power, and that coalitions of jerks controlling sheeple have been in constant warfare since time immemorial. As long as lying jerks exist and are able to gain power, the underlying mechanism at the core of social dysfunction will not change. Sure, the content of what lying jerks say changes all the time - it used to be that they spoke a lot about piety and god, when the social Zeitgeist was of a sacerdotal persuasion. Now lying jerks are staying out of the pew and flock to the NGO, the campus and to Twitter. >> >> The old Soviets wanted to create the homo sovieticus, well-adapted to run in the vanguard of the proletariat. They failed but they were onto something: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A society made of humans will necessarily simmer with constant low-level warfare of everybody against everybody, with occasional catastrophic upheavals. But technology will come to the rescue - genetically engineered Good People will eventually replace the wild type. I hope. > > > I'm not sure how you go from a world of wild humans to a world of man made Good People, but we're a way off being able to create Good People. And a single Bad Person could easily take over a planet full of Good People. > > -Dave Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg Hive Mind we will all be Good People. Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells and destroyed. Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change dramatically or become extinct. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 10 17:37:49 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 12:37:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I answered a question the other day on Quora. I was asked what trait that humans have had forever would I get rid of or change. My answer: aggression. It's news to no one that humans have too much aggression (and sex drive) for the modern era (OK, so it's always the modern era, nitpicker). So let's get rid of it almost entirely. What we need now is cooperation. The trick would have to be, though, to get rid of it in everyone at the same time, or those left with a lot of aggression would take advantage. (or would they? Do we need aggression to combat aggression? Maybe not. We could dispatch the aggressors calmly and rationally the way we kill rabid animals, which many humans resemble) I had an idea and asked my endocrinologist about it: "Is it possible in the future to program the hypothalamus to release the chemicals that stimulate testosterone production starting at 7. p. m. and stopping at midnight and cleaning all of it out of the bloodstream after that." She said Yes. So - no more nooners, but also no more hormone-fueled aggression during the day. We'd just have to get by on assertiveness. The hypothalamus could be programmed to stay turned off for days or weeks or whenever. The combination of lust and aggression is a very bad one. That opens the possibility of changing the hormones of criminals, perhaps on a permanent basis, such as for serial rapists. Fallen? I don't remember falling. I've always been up. Up for just about anything. bill w On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:59 AM BillK wrote: > On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 15:28, Dave Sill wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today: > >> > >> While a culture change towards a nirvana of reason, compassion and good > cheer would be nice, I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. > >> > >> We are all human, therefore fallen. > > > > Fallen? Sinners? I'd say we're all human and carry evolutionary baggage. > > > >> Evolution optimizes for individual survival in a social context, and > the payoff matrix of this game, given the very physical underpinnings of > our reality, does reward mendacity, manipulativeness and mayhem under many > circumstances. > >> > >> It's a simple fact that lying jerks exist, that they flock to power, > and that coalitions of jerks controlling sheeple have been in constant > warfare since time immemorial. As long as lying jerks exist and are able to > gain power, the underlying mechanism at the core of social dysfunction will > not change. Sure, the content of what lying jerks say changes all the time > - it used to be that they spoke a lot about piety and god, when the social > Zeitgeist was of a sacerdotal persuasion. Now lying jerks are staying out > of the pew and flock to the NGO, the campus and to Twitter. > >> > >> The old Soviets wanted to create the homo sovieticus, well-adapted to > run in the vanguard of the proletariat. They failed but they were onto > something: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A society made > of humans will necessarily simmer with constant low-level warfare of > everybody against everybody, with occasional catastrophic upheavals. But > technology will come to the rescue - genetically engineered Good People > will eventually replace the wild type. I hope. > > > > > > I'm not sure how you go from a world of wild humans to a world of man > made Good People, but we're a way off being able to create Good People. And > a single Bad Person could easily take over a planet full of Good People. > > > > -Dave > > Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg > Hive Mind we will all be Good People. > Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells > and destroyed. > > Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their > weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change > dramatically or become extinct. > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 10 18:35:48 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 11:35:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00fe01d5075f$30cd0dd0$92672970$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg Hive Mind we will all be Good People. Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells and destroyed. Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change dramatically or become extinct. BillK _______________________________________________ Recall the discussion recently about how some polls would return some really scary answers, depending on what crowd was asked. BillK's comment is scary because it has a most uncomfortable ring of truth to it. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 10 19:31:57 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 12:31:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014601d50767$086106a0$192313e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really >?I was asked what trait that humans have had forever would I get rid of or change. My answer: aggression. It's news to no one that humans have too much aggression (and sex drive) for the modern era ? Awwww BillW, you?re no fun. >?So let's get rid of it almost entirely. What we need now is cooperation. The trick would have to be, though, to get rid of it in everyone at the same time, or those left with a lot of aggression would take advantage? Sure, but would it not be cool to be among the few left with sex drive? Oh wait, already there, never mind. >? So - no more nooners? You were doing so well up that point. >? Do we need aggression to combat aggression? Maybe not. We could dispatch the aggressors calmly and rationally the way we kill rabid animals, which many humans resemble) If taken out of context, certainly this is a good example of a scary comment. >?Fallen? I don't remember falling. I've always been up. Up for just about anything. bill w There ya go BillW, you are among those who still have sex drive. Those nooners you are dismissing have big advantages. My bride and I are less tired then. Interesting commentary however. I might go over to Quora and follow that discussion. We dang near have already gotten rid of aggression. My great grandmother wrote a book about growing up in the early 1900s, being a young parent, what it was like. She had 6 sons, all of whom loved baseball. All the local boys liked baseball, but they seldom got past about the 4th inning before a fight would break out, and naturally all the boys would join the fray. She didn?t recall a ball game every finishing 9 innings. Her comment was most entertaining: them boys loved their fighting, but there was seldom any serious damage. Black eyes, broken noses or teeth, seldom any serious injury. They didn?t bring their guns or knives ever, and didn?t use the bat on each other. I couldn?t help noticing the difference between my son?s middle school now vs mine, tragically many years ago. Back then, fights would happen about on a weekly basis in those testosterone-fueled years. Now they are rare. So now we must make up for it by amping up sex drive (what else is there to do? (Hey, some of us pay good money for that sex drive ( {8^D))) Fun thought: imagine a guy from the pre-industrial age, a couple hundred years ago, before any combustion prime movers. Think of their lifestyle, muscle and grit running everything, constant hard labor. Now imagine what it would feel like to them if they could be brought forward to now: we live in houses that are always right at a comfortable temperature year around, we are clean always, machines wash and dry our clothing, we have all the food we need of any variety we want, any time we want. We are healthy. We can go anywhere we want, any time we want. We now have cars in which we can copulate if we choose (hey cool!) and it carries no risk of pregnancy or disease (possible risk of a violent crash (if the participant?s knee hits the steering wheel.)) Can you imagine an old-timer brought forth to now? You know the first thing he will want to do when he sees all this luxury. And second, and third, and not stop. If you think about it that way, it is entirely possible that our collective sex drive, along with our aggression, may have already subsided considerably as well. spike On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:59 AM BillK > wrote: On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 15:28, Dave Sill > wrote: > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: >> >> Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today: >> >> While a culture change towards a nirvana of reason, compassion and good cheer would be nice, I wouldn't keep my fingers crossed. >> >> We are all human, therefore fallen. > > Fallen? Sinners? I'd say we're all human and carry evolutionary baggage. > >> Evolution optimizes for individual survival in a social context, and the payoff matrix of this game, given the very physical underpinnings of our reality, does reward mendacity, manipulativeness and mayhem under many circumstances. >> >> It's a simple fact that lying jerks exist, that they flock to power, and that coalitions of jerks controlling sheeple have been in constant warfare since time immemorial. As long as lying jerks exist and are able to gain power, the underlying mechanism at the core of social dysfunction will not change. Sure, the content of what lying jerks say changes all the time - it used to be that they spoke a lot about piety and god, when the social Zeitgeist was of a sacerdotal persuasion. Now lying jerks are staying out of the pew and flock to the NGO, the campus and to Twitter. >> >> The old Soviets wanted to create the homo sovieticus, well-adapted to run in the vanguard of the proletariat. They failed but they were onto something: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. A society made of humans will necessarily simmer with constant low-level warfare of everybody against everybody, with occasional catastrophic upheavals. But technology will come to the rescue - genetically engineered Good People will eventually replace the wild type. I hope. > > > I'm not sure how you go from a world of wild humans to a world of man made Good People, but we're a way off being able to create Good People. And a single Bad Person could easily take over a planet full of Good People. > > -Dave Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg Hive Mind we will all be Good People. Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells and destroyed. Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change dramatically or become extinct. BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 02:57:07 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 22:57:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:24 AM Dave Sill wrote: > > I'm not sure how you go from a world of wild humans to a world of man made > Good People, but we're a way off being able to create Good People. And a > single Bad Person could easily take over a planet full of Good People. > > ### Actually I am thinking here about the impact of AI on wild type humans. Soon it will be possible to generate new designs of minds, not evolved to survive as operating systems for self-replicating meat creatures. Our minds are indelibly shaped by our history (as you mentioned) and there are only a few designs that could evolve inside a monkey. A mind designer will be able to explore a much wider design space, including designs well-suited for selfless cooperation, lacking the drive to self-replicate, completely transparent, cognitively specialized, always cooperating within in-group, or never cooperating with out-group. A group of such perfect cooperators would have an incredible advantage over groups of wild-type humans, who are very imperfect cooperators. While exhibiting the characteristics we applaud in our fellow humans (selflessness, transparency, cooperation) these Good People would be very bad news to anybody trying to oppose them. Contrary to what Dave suggested, psychopaths and other non-cooperators would not be able to take over - the new society would be resistant to take-over due to designed features, such as transparency, selfless punishment of defectors, and others. One of the most important features of the Good Society would be externally controlled replication of minds. Where we replicate based on internal cues (much disturbed by modern living, but that's a different story), the Good People would only be made as needed to fulfill their societal roles, assuring an efficient structure of the society. Mind-factories would churn out enough engineers, teachers, menial workers, accountants and whoever else is needed to meet demand. We wild type humans might have to eke out an existence at the margin of the Good Society, not necessarily worse off in absolute terms but completely subordinate to the cooperators. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 02:58:05 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 22:58:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:58 PM BillK wrote: > > Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg > Hive Mind we will all be Good People. > Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells > and destroyed. > > Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their > weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change > dramatically or become extinct. > > ### Absolutely! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 11 03:03:15 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 20:03:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> BillK wrote: > Once we have Total Surveillance and become cells within the AI Borg > Hive Mind we will all be Good People. > Bad People are so dangerous that they will be treated as cancer cells > and destroyed. Who or what gets to decide what is Good and what is Bad? By what criteria? An AI programmed to see anything that challenges the status quo as Bad? Make creativity a crime and dissent a death sentence? And if you are talking about god-like AI, then why would it bother with a bunch of stupid meat-automatons when steel, plastic, and silicon are so much more durable? The thing about cancer is that despite all the surveillance, it still happens. You would be trading what few freedoms you have left for a false sense of security. I say you would be made far safer by spending the money on cancer research instead of total surveillance. Terrorism is statistically a relatively minor cause of death compared to cancer or malaria or dozens of other diseases. Terrorists are not nihilists; they want to rule the world, not destroy it. > Humans simmering with constant warfare cannot survive as their > weaponry becomes more and more powerful. The human species will change > dramatically or become extinct. We have changed dramatically and we will continue to change. But we must must try many diverse strategies and not bet the farm on a single drastic approach that may ultimately prove futile. Humans simmering with constant warfare sounds safer to me than AI Borg Hive Minds waging war with the weapons they would have at THEIR disposal. Not to mention the fact that if humans change so drastically as to be the cells of a hive-mind, then that would be a whole new post-human species anyway. So the human species would be extinct regardless if a few Borg drones contained some of our DNA. The *only* reliable way to safeguard against extinction is through niche diversification, physical redundancy, and offsite backups i.e. off-world colonization. Anything else is just a power grab for the remaining resources of our lonely little planet by more of Rafal's lying jerks. Diaspora is our only true hope. And if you are going to engineer humanity, than for evolution's sake engineer it to survive the rigors of space and not simply to be a more obedient cog in the big machine. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 03:03:38 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 23:03:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:40 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I answered a question the other day on Quora. I was asked what trait that > humans have had forever would I get rid of or change. > > My answer: aggression. It's news to no one that humans have too much > aggression (and sex drive) for the modern era (OK, so it's always the > modern era, nitpicker). > > So let's get rid of it almost entirely. What we need now is cooperation. > The trick would have to be, though, to get rid of it in everyone at the > same time, or those left with a lot of aggression would take advantage. > (or would they? Do we need aggression to combat aggression? Maybe not. > We could dispatch the aggressors calmly and rationally the way we kill > rabid animals, which many humans resemble) > ### "Dispatching" humans sounds like aggression, doesn't it? Humans have way too little sex drive, or whatever it is that makes people have babies, for the modern era. Almost all societies afflicted by modernity start dying off. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 03:09:39 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 23:09:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <014601d50767$086106a0$192313e0$@rainier66.com> References: <014601d50767$086106a0$192313e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 3:34 PM wrote: > > I couldn?t help noticing the difference between my son?s middle school now > vs mine, tragically many years ago. Back then, fights would happen about > on a weekly basis in those testosterone-fueled years. Now they are rare. > ### There was a massive drop in testosterone levels and sperm counts in modern societies over at least the last 30 years, most likely much longer. This isn't good. Sure, fewer boys fighting but also fewer boys developing visuospatial skills and the drive to succeed economically. A world without real men is not a kumbaya utopia, it's a disaster. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 11 03:58:33 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 20:58:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: <014601d50767$086106a0$192313e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006a01d507ad$cde5e530$69b1af90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 8:10 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 3:34 PM > wrote: I couldn?t help noticing the difference between my son?s middle school now vs mine, tragically many years ago. Back then, fights would happen about on a weekly basis in those testosterone-fueled years. Now they are rare. ### There was a massive drop in testosterone levels and sperm counts in modern societies over at least the last 30 years, most likely much longer. This isn't good. Sure, fewer boys fighting but also fewer boys developing visuospatial skills and the drive to succeed economically. A world without real men is not a kumbaya utopia, it's a disaster? Since BillW posted the original comment about modern people having too much sex drive, ideas have been rattling around in my head like golf balls in an otherwise empty 55 gallon drum. Think about a really man-dominated society such as that found in Saudi Arabia. I won?t comment much because I don?t know much about Saudi other than what I read in the news. OK now for contrast, picture a society where men are men and women are women, such as Mexico, for I have some firsthand knowledge of how these things go. Reason: in California, we have Mexican towns. I am not kidding, I can show them to you. They have enormous farms, and the people that work them are Mexican. English is seldom heard there, Mexican customs are followed, such as the promenade (15 yr old girls make sure they are seen by the single young men.) The music played on the radio is Mexican music. I don?t mean rap or hip hop. You can go there and tune in: it is mariachi bands, playing trumpets, men singing songs about how their corazons beat wildly for their bonita senoritas, etc. Well now, OK. Contrast the corner we Americans have painted ourselves into in trying to pretend that there is no real difference at all between genders. We can go with it for a while, integrate the office and so forth, but eventually we hit some pretty stubborn realities. We will end up with men claiming to be women and competing for Title IX sports scholarships. We will have men claiming to be women setting track and field records. We will be up against it when high school men claiming to be women want to go into the women?s locker rooms. Friends, that just ain?t gonna work. I know I am old, but still: that ain?t gonna work. High school girls are too self-conscious to share a locker room with women having that stuff hanging out up front. Ain?t gonna work here, never mind trying to sell it to the international community, when most countries dang sure do know the difference between men and women. Perhaps Rafal knows: in those societies where men are men and women are still women, such as Mexico and California Mexican towns where there is little pressure to conform to modern ways, what is happening to testosterone levels there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 07:28:35 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 03:28:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:18 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Who or what gets to decide what is Good and what is Bad? By what > criteria? An AI programmed to see anything that challenges the status > quo as Bad? Make creativity a crime and dissent a death sentence? And > if you are talking about god-like AI, then why would it bother with a > bunch of stupid meat-automatons when steel, plastic, and silicon are > so much more durable? > ### Yeah, this is the interesting part - in our history it was inclusive evolutionary fitness that ultimately decided what most of us would perceive as good and bad. Evolution was the goal-setter more or less directly. In the designed future there will be conscious mediation between evolutionary pressures and outcomes, including moral perceptions of the designed minds. Under most circumstances evolution will still apply, as long as there is no singleton mind controlling everything but it will operate at the level of competition between societies, rather than at an individual level. Individuals will be designed but the design criteria will be evolved. To put it simply, societies that by chance make wrong design choices will be out-competed by those that stumble on the evolutionarily correct ones. ----------------------------------- > Humans simmering with constant warfare sounds safer to me than AI Borg > Hive Minds waging war with the weapons they would have at THEIR > disposal. Not to mention the fact that if humans change so drastically > as to be the cells of a hive-mind, then that would be a whole new > post-human species anyway. So the human species would be extinct > regardless if a few Borg drones contained some of our DNA. > ### Indeed, I am not describing necessarily a future dear to my heart but rather I consider a future as it might very well happen, even if the UFAI doesn't kill us all. ---------------------------------- > > The *only* reliable way to safeguard against extinction is through > niche diversification, physical redundancy, and offsite backups i.e. > off-world colonization. Anything else is just a power grab for the > remaining resources of our lonely little planet by more of Rafal's > lying jerks. > > Diaspora is our only true hope. And if you are going to engineer > humanity, than for evolution's sake engineer it to survive the rigors > of space and not simply to be a more obedient cog in the big machine. > > ### Amen to that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat May 11 10:32:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 05:32:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: rafal wrote Almost all societies afflicted by modernity start dying off. Take a look at the number of calories consumed in a culture. When this goes up, birth rate goes down. Maybe this is what Rafal calls dying off. The opposite view, that if you give starving people more food they will just make more babies, is simply not true. bill w On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 2:32 AM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:18 PM Stuart LaForge > wrote: > >> >> Who or what gets to decide what is Good and what is Bad? By what >> criteria? An AI programmed to see anything that challenges the status >> quo as Bad? Make creativity a crime and dissent a death sentence? And >> if you are talking about god-like AI, then why would it bother with a >> bunch of stupid meat-automatons when steel, plastic, and silicon are >> so much more durable? >> > > ### Yeah, this is the interesting part - in our history it was inclusive > evolutionary fitness that ultimately decided what most of us would perceive > as good and bad. Evolution was the goal-setter more or less directly. In > the designed future there will be conscious mediation between evolutionary > pressures and outcomes, including moral perceptions of the designed minds. > Under most circumstances evolution will still apply, as long as there is no > singleton mind controlling everything but it will operate at the level of > competition between societies, rather than at an individual level. > Individuals will be designed but the design criteria will be evolved. To > put it simply, societies that by chance make wrong design choices will be > out-competed by those that stumble on the evolutionarily correct ones. > ----------------------------------- > >> Humans simmering with constant warfare sounds safer to me than AI Borg >> Hive Minds waging war with the weapons they would have at THEIR >> disposal. Not to mention the fact that if humans change so drastically >> as to be the cells of a hive-mind, then that would be a whole new >> post-human species anyway. So the human species would be extinct >> regardless if a few Borg drones contained some of our DNA. >> > > ### Indeed, I am not describing necessarily a future dear to my heart but > rather I consider a future as it might very well happen, even if the UFAI > doesn't kill us all. > ---------------------------------- > >> >> The *only* reliable way to safeguard against extinction is through >> niche diversification, physical redundancy, and offsite backups i.e. >> off-world colonization. Anything else is just a power grab for the >> remaining resources of our lonely little planet by more of Rafal's >> lying jerks. >> >> Diaspora is our only true hope. And if you are going to engineer >> humanity, than for evolution's sake engineer it to survive the rigors >> of space and not simply to be a more obedient cog in the big machine. >> >> ### Amen to that. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Sat May 11 15:11:01 2019 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 09:11:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Message-ID: Rafal, You wrote: "Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today" Well, I found your "comments" damned impressive, and so I'd like you to ID the blog, so I can check it out to see if there's more of that sort of good stuff. Best, Jeff Davis -- "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 11 19:03:16 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 12:03:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <256287833.2923531.1557598889764@mail.yahoo.com> References: <256287833.2923531.1557598889764@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190511120316.Horde.LcD9k-HYtVCDaMQaQtOWvhD@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Humans have way too little sex drive, or whatever it is that makes > people have babies, for the modern era. Almost all societies > afflicted by modernity start dying off. Yes. I believe it may be more related to the overcrowding of urbanization rather than any other particular trait of modernity per se. It is probably some evolved feedback mechanism to prevent humans from over-breeding like a sophisticated version of quorum signalling in bacteria. This is a testable hypothesis. One simply has to compare birthrates in cities with birthrates in the countryside of the same state or region of equivalent technological advancement. Stuart LaForge From pharos at gmail.com Sat May 11 20:17:25 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 21:17:25 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 May 2019 at 04:18, Stuart LaForge wrote: > > Who or what gets to decide what is Good and what is Bad? By what > criteria? An AI programmed to see anything that challenges the status > quo as Bad? Make creativity a crime and dissent a death sentence? And > if you are talking about god-like AI, then why would it bother with a > bunch of stupid meat-automatons when steel, plastic, and silicon are > so much more durable? > > The thing about cancer is that despite all the surveillance, it still > happens. You would be trading what few freedoms you have left for a > false sense of security. I say you would be made far safer by spending > the money on cancer research instead of total surveillance. Terrorism > is statistically a relatively minor cause of death compared to cancer > or malaria or dozens of other diseases. Terrorists are not nihilists; > they want to rule the world, not destroy it. > Who gets to decide to invade Iraq based on fictitious evidence and end up killing millions of people? Your theory is nice, but that's not the world we live in. There is an old saying 'Follow the money'. Pay attention to what they do - not what they say. The huge investment in surveillance, AI and the military industrial machine far outstrips the pocket money allocated to space exploration. > > Humans simmering with constant warfare sounds safer to me than AI Borg > Hive Minds waging war with the weapons they would have at THEIR > disposal. Not to mention the fact that if humans change so drastically > as to be the cells of a hive-mind, then that would be a whole new > post-human species anyway. So the human species would be extinct > regardless if a few Borg drones contained some of our DNA. > That's probably a likely future path. As nanotech, fusion power, etc. gets developed that means that more powerful weapons will also be developed. Humanity will have to redesign themselves as a species to control the ever more powerful technologies. I doubt that Hive Minds will be waging war. The whole point of going down that path is to stop conflict which could mean the extinction of the species. > The *only* reliable way to safeguard against extinction is through > niche diversification, physical redundancy, and offsite backups i.e. > off-world colonization. Anything else is just a power grab for the > remaining resources of our lonely little planet by more of Rafal's > lying jerks. > > Diaspora is our only true hope. And if you are going to engineer > humanity, than for evolution's sake engineer it to survive the rigors > of space and not simply to be a more obedient cog in the big machine. > I doubt that humanity has enough time left to do that. AI and weaponry is racing ahead while achieving survivable colonies on other planets is far behind. If Diaspora is achieved it will be done by the survivors of the tech development race. And they might not look much like us. BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 11 23:59:04 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 19:59:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 11:14 AM Jeff Davis wrote: > Rafal, > > You wrote: "Just some comments I posted somebody's blog today" > > Well, I found your "comments" damned impressive, and so I'd like you to ID > the blog, so I can check it out to see if there's more of that sort of good > stuff. > > ### https://theness.com/neurologicablog/ A nice skeptical and medical blog, with a bit of a leftist bent but palatable. The most important point I was trying to make in the comment was that the set of lies that a society tells itself changes all the time but the lying jerks that make them up stay the same, and they always flock to places of power. Another point that I didn't make there is that since the surface of a society is always suffused with lies, to a varying extent, one must exercise extreme caution, not to say prejudice, against anything that gets repeated too many times by those who have power. There are complex mechanisms that cause one lie rather than other lies to spread and become entrenched. The mechanisms of lie entrenchment are of course of great interest for anybody who would like to know the truth, because knowing why a lie is told helps to identify it and to find the grains of truth among the cacophony. But that's the topic for a book, not a blog post. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 12 01:44:04 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 21:44:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 6:35 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > rafal wrote Almost all societies afflicted by modernity start dying off. > > Take a look at the number of calories consumed in a culture. When this > goes up, birth rate goes down. Maybe this is what Rafal calls dying off. > The opposite view, that if you give starving people more food they will > just make more babies, is simply not true. > ### Not quite that simple. For example. English upper class in the past 500 years had both higher access to calories and dramatically higher fertility than the lower classes. There seems to be something about modern culture that dramatically limits fertility of most people. Whether it is endocrine disruptors, access to pornography, access to television, overfeeding, anti-natalist propaganda or some other combination of factors, nobody knows for sure. We know that Americans, Japanese, Europeans, Iranians, Chinese and many other nations are dying off. A dark mystery, it is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun May 12 10:12:45 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 03:12:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <803650976.3010017.1557636405212@mail.yahoo.com> References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <803650976.3010017.1557636405212@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190512031245.Horde.fkMEa3gV2JSpZrTp5jsYBGX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BillK: > Who gets to decide to invade Iraq based on fictitious evidence and end > up killing millions of people? It was the "Coalition of the Schilling" aka lying jerks. The question should really be Who knew the evidence was fake? Quite possibly the same people who will try to convince you that by implanting a remotely-detonated explosive monitoring and tracking chip into your brain stem, they are protecting you from the bad guys. > Your theory is nice, but that's not the world we live in. > There is an old saying 'Follow the money'. Pay attention to what they > do - not what they say. > The huge investment in surveillance, AI and the military industrial > machine far outstrips the pocket money allocated to space exploration. It's not a theory, nor even a prediction, it is simply a hedging strategy for the long-term survival of the species, come what may. But it is the lying jerks who get to decide what strategy to use so it may be a lost cause. Still if we are truly alone in the universe, then we owe it to the universe to do our best to survive, lest the universe forget its own beauty and splendor. >> Humans simmering with constant warfare sounds safer to me than AI Borg >> Hive Minds waging war with the weapons they would have at THEIR >> disposal. Not to mention the fact that if humans change so drastically >> as to be the cells of a hive-mind, then that would be a whole new >> post-human species anyway. So the human species would be extinct >> regardless if a few Borg drones contained some of our DNA. >> > > That's probably a likely future path. As nanotech, fusion power, etc. > gets developed that means that more powerful weapons will also be > developed. Humanity will have to redesign themselves as a species to > control the ever more powerful technologies. I doubt that Hive Minds > will be waging war. The whole point of going down that path is to stop > conflict which could mean the extinction of the species. And my criticism of that path is that it won't work for its stated purpose because conflict between individuals will be replaced with conflict between Hive Minds. Just like multicellularity eliminated conflict, imperfectly mind you, between related cells and replaced it with big fish eating little fish. Eusocial insect colonies don't get along with each other so why would Hive Minds be any different? Come on. You Brits couldn't stay in the Catholic Church and you couldn't stay in the European Union, what on Earth makes you think you folks could tolerate being in the same Hive Mind as Russia, North Korea, Israel, and Iran? Plus think about the wars that would be necessary to force all the different cultures and values systems of the world into the same Hive Mind. So will the Hive Mind eat pork or not? Next thing you know, you have will have Kosher Hive Minds, Shariah Hive Minds, Vegan Hive Minds and then round and round it goes. Ultimately AI is just software and data both of which are easy to copy. Through competition, conflict is integral to life, intelligence, and progress. In some sense intelligence, both natural and artificial, is simply a competition between neurons for activation with the resulting outputs determined by which coalition of neurons "wins" the competition resulting in a decision. So a brain can't even make a decision without conflict. So the development of Hive Minds won't eliminate conflict, they will simply push it up the trophic scale. >> Diaspora is our only true hope. And if you are going to engineer >> humanity, than for evolution's sake engineer it to survive the rigors >> of space and not simply to be a more obedient cog in the big machine. > > I doubt that humanity has enough time left to do that. AI and weaponry > is racing ahead while achieving survivable colonies on other planets > is far behind. If Diaspora is achieved it will be done by the > survivors of the tech development race. > And they might not look much like us. You might be right but we humans are a resourceful lot. Even as the dinosaurs are both extinct but also live on as birds, some of us might survive. Changed no doubt but recognizable. Establishing the correct relationship with AI would probably be something the survivors would have in common. Perhaps we could even hitch rides with them all over the galaxy, like their microbiome or something. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 12 16:59:17 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 12:59:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: *> The most important point I was trying to make in the comment was that > the set of lies that a society tells itself changes all the time but the > lying jerks that make them up stay the same, and they always flock to > places of power.* > A cynic who believes all leaders are basically the same lying jerk has something in common with a very naive person who believes all leaders are truthful and equally virtuous, neither bothers to examine the evidence. But I'm a fan of the scientific method and that's why I'm a skeptic but not a cynic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 12 17:54:46 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A cynic who believes all leaders are basically the same lying jerk has > something in common with a very naive person who believes all leaders are > truthful and equally virtuous, neither bothers to examine the evidence. But > I'm a fan of the scientific method and that's why I'm a skeptic but not a > cynic. > > John K Clark > Or, a cynic used to be a Pollyanna who has experienced disappointment over and over. I am a cynic because, though I was never a Pollyanna, of the data provided by those jerks you mention - usually bad. Is it wrong to have a bias against politicians? I think you all join me in denying that. Skeptics all, I think. bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 12 23:19:41 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 19:19:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 12:59 PM John Clark wrote: > On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > *> The most important point I was trying to make in the comment was that >> the set of lies that a society tells itself changes all the time but the >> lying jerks that make them up stay the same, and they always flock to >> places of power.* >> > > A cynic who believes all leaders are basically the same lying jerk has > something in common with a very naive person who believes all leaders are > truthful and equally virtuous, neither bothers to examine the evidence. But > I'm a fan of the scientific method and that's why I'm a skeptic but not a > cynic. > ### No, not all leaders are the same lying jerks, but the same lying jerks always flock to power, no matter what specific lies they spout. In general, leaders of movements that rely on more and bigger lies have to lie more than the leaders of movements that rely on fewer lies. If you want which politician is a bigger jerk, find out the truth values of the propositions they entertain on their path to power. For example, a movement which perpetuates the lie that hostile immigration is good for a country is likely to have a lying jerk as its leader. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 12 23:26:51 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 19:26:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <20190512031245.Horde.fkMEa3gV2JSpZrTp5jsYBGX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <58018460.2737907.1557531363149@mail.yahoo.com> <20190510200315.Horde.I6GxHXJXkQr5SxrR0EuuQ-Q@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <803650976.3010017.1557636405212@mail.yahoo.com> <20190512031245.Horde.fkMEa3gV2JSpZrTp5jsYBGX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:15 AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > And my criticism of that path is that it won't work for its stated > purpose because conflict between individuals will be replaced with > conflict between Hive Minds. Just like multicellularity eliminated > conflict, imperfectly mind you, between related cells and replaced it > with big fish eating little fish. Eusocial insect colonies don't get > along with each other so why would Hive Minds be any different? > ### Indeed, I don't expect the end of warfare when humans are replaced by hive minds. ------------------------------- > Establishing the correct > relationship with AI would probably be something the survivors would > have in common. Perhaps we could even hitch rides with them all over > the galaxy, like their microbiome or something. ### Yes, yes, that's what I suggested here a few years ago. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 13 15:02:29 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:02:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Message-ID: On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 7:19 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > *### No, not all leaders are the same lying jerks, but the same lying > jerks always flock to power, no matter what specific lies they spout. * I would agree that usually the best people to have in positions of power are the ones that don't like power but are forced by circumstances to have it, however there are exceptions; Churchill wanted and got to be Prime Minister in 1939 and I think it's pretty clear the world would be in a much less desirable state today if he had not. *> a movement which perpetuates the lie that hostile immigration is good > for a country is likely to have a lying jerk as its leader. * I always thought you were a libertarian but I guess I was mistaken because libertarians believe people have the right to live how they want where they want as long as they're peaceful, and today the USA has the lowest crime rate its had in many decades and areas of the country with the sharpest drop in crime have the most undocumented immigrants. That doesn't sound very hostile to me. No Connection Between Undocumented Immigrants and Crime Even the libertarian think tank The Cato Institute concluded that illegal immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than native born Americans: https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon May 13 15:15:07 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:15:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 13, 2019, 11:05 John Clark wrote: > today the USA has the lowest crime rate its had in many decades and areas > of the country with the sharpest drop in crime have the most undocumented > immigrants. That doesn't sound very hostile to me. > You think it'd be obvious to everyone that people at risk of deportation would be extra keen on not doing anything illegal. However, some people have their reason obscured by racism. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 13 15:52:57 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 08:52:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rip doris Message-ID: <002901d509a3$efed6750$cfc835f0$@rainier66.com> Doris Day is gone. She was the closest to my ideal woman I ever saw. Dang she was drop-dead gorgeous, and that voice, oh my. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 13 16:24:10 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:24:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] rip doris In-Reply-To: <002901d509a3$efed6750$cfc835f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d509a3$efed6750$cfc835f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Said of Doris Day "I knew her before she was a virgin." (I am pretty sure you will get this, but if not, let me know.) I try not to keep up with these things - just makes me sad. Never mind celebs - I've lost most of my friends. I hope Julie Newmar is not dead but I am not going to find out. Nor do I want to see her in old age. Reminds me of Greta Garbo, who was thought to be the perfect beauty. She retired when she saw some wrinkles etc. starting. She did not want anyone to see her imperfect. Her famous words were not 'I want to be alone.' but "I want to be left alone." bill w On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 10:56 AM wrote: > > > Doris Day is gone. She was the closest to my ideal woman I ever saw. > Dang she was drop-dead gorgeous, and that voice, oh my. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 13 16:25:54 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:25:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At least some immigration is good: farmers need pickers and the immigrants do it and no one else wants those back-breaking jobs. bill w On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 10:18 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2019, 11:05 John Clark wrote: > >> today the USA has the lowest crime rate its had in many decades and >> areas of the country with the sharpest drop in crime have the most >> undocumented immigrants. That doesn't sound very hostile to me. >> > > You think it'd be obvious to everyone that people at risk of deportation > would be extra keen on not doing anything illegal. However, some people > have their reason obscured by racism. > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 13 16:30:37 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 09:30:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] monsters from the deep Message-ID: <005e01d509a9$327a0c40$976e24c0$@rainier66.com> A staple of 1950s pulp SciFi: America and Russia doing undersea nuclear testing causes a change in DNA, horrendous monster emerges from sea, devours Tokyo, etc. (It?s always Tokyo. Never Santa Cruz or some weirdsville place we can live without and never miss, always Tokyo, sheesh, those guys never catch a break.) OK then. Turns out they detonated nukes over the Pacific, formed carbon 14, and it took a while for the 14C to settle on the surface, be incorporated into the surface flora and plankton, to be devoured by beasts on up the food chain, which drop C14-rich turds, and eventually perish and sink. Bottom feeders devour all that tasty carbon that comes raining down, so their 14C level goes way up and their age determined by C14 dating goes negative (cool!) This article talks about how they studied the beasts down in the deepest ocean trenches: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-05/agu-rcf050819.php This comment slew me. >?the researchers found the amphipods living in these trenches grow larger and live longer than their counterparts in shallower waters. Amphipods that live in shallow water typically live for less than two years and grow to an average length of 20 millimeters (0.8 inches). But the researchers found amphipods in the deep trenches that were more than 10 years old and had grown to 91 millimeters (3.6 inches) long? {8^D Oh no! There really are creatures from the great depths! Kewalllll? OK so here?s what we do: set up those greenhouses we discussed a couple months ago, grow carbon-14 enriched plants, convince the public that if they devour our 14C-rich foods, they will live five times longer, point out to the ladies that 14C-rich foods not only makes one?s corpse C14 date younger, it makes them look younger now (that old trick never fails), convince the guys that these things down there grew from 20 millimeters to 91 millimeters, and since you are starting out with 91 millimeters, just think what it might do for your thing down there (that old trick always works too) then we make a cubic buttload (or rather I do (then I will say nice things about you (from my 250 million dollar gold-filled yacht.))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon May 13 16:42:15 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 09:42:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007901d509aa$d2896e50$779c4af0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace > Subject: Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really At least some immigration is good: farmers need pickers and the immigrants do it and no one else wants those back-breaking jobs. bill w We have all the automation necessary to automate most harvesting now, including that which is currently done by hand picking. One must wonder what happens when it becomes economically viable to get harvest bots. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 13 17:07:33 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 12:07:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <007901d509aa$d2896e50$779c4af0$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d509aa$d2896e50$779c4af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We have all the automation necessary to automate most harvesting now, including that which is currently done by hand picking. One must wonder what happens when it becomes economically viable to get harvest bots. spike I don't know who or what is harvesting my California strawberries, but they are doing a poor job. The ones I get at the store, Walmart, are about half white on the bottom - picked too soon. Oddly, the organic ones are picked much later and are red all the way down and far sweeter. And so there is almost no waste and thus they are much cheaper than the cheap ones. bill w On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 11:52 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really > > > > At least some immigration is good: farmers need pickers and the > immigrants do it and no one else wants those back-breaking jobs. > > > > bill w > > > > > > We have all the automation necessary to automate most harvesting now, > including that which is currently done by hand picking. One must wonder > what happens when it becomes economically viable to get harvest bots. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 13 17:11:10 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 13:11:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 12:36 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > At least some immigration is good: farmers need pickers and the > immigrants do it and no one else wants those back-breaking jobs. > Foreign born immigrant Sergey Brin hasn't done much farm work but he did co-found Google, and foreign born Elon Musk has also done one or two interesting things. The current total is 45 immigrants from 27 countries have become billionaires in the USA. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon May 13 17:51:48 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 10:51:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <007901d509aa$d2896e50$779c4af0$@rainier66.com> References: <007901d509aa$d2896e50$779c4af0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:52 AM wrote: > We have all the automation necessary to automate most harvesting now, > including that which is currently done by hand picking. One must wonder > what happens when it becomes economically viable to get harvest bots. > I recall a political comic about a white American laborer, who keeps blaming immigrants for taking his jobs when automation is what drove him out. It ends with him being an Uber driver and reading an article about self-driving cars, not making the connection to the limits of his job security. That said, this may reduce the seasonal migrant workers going back and forth across the border, encouraging instead the kind of labor that sticks around throughout the year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue May 14 04:26:17 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 00:26:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 11:06 AM John Clark wrote: > > I always thought you were a libertarian but I guess I was mistaken because > libertarians believe people have the right to live how they want where they > want as long as they're peaceful, and today the USA has the lowest crime > rate its had in many decades > ### Oh but yes I am libertarian! The most compact expression of what it means to be a libertarian is "Live and let live", although the full explication could take tomes of text. The right of free association is the foundation of libertarian thought and most sharply differentiates us from collectivists of all stripes. Of course, free association implies free dissociation. Anybody can live in my home - if and only if they are invited and come voluntarily. Obviously, I do not invite hostiles to my home and, since it's *my* home, on a whim I can bar even nice people from entering. A libertarian homeowner's association, a small, voluntarily formed group of people, can legitimately decide to exclude some specific persons, or groups of persons, for any reasons or no reason at all. In a libertarian country, a racist homeowner's association may legitimately bar any persons of a disfavored race from purchasing a home that belongs to the association. More importantly, a libertarian would never demand that a minority group, such a Jews, vegetarians or Hungarians be forced to accept Nazis, carnivores or anti-Hungarians into their own associations, clubs, homes, neighborhoods or whatever areas or spheres they legitimately own. So this is the libertarian deontological position. There are of course other considerations - questions of efficiency, various trade-offs, libertarian preferences towards polycentric, decentralized decision-making - but my position on immigration, and especially hostile, illegal immigration boils down to the following: As a libertarian I explicitly renounce the right to dictate to others who they should associate with. -------------------------------------------------------- > Even the libertarian think tank The Cato Institute concluded that illegal > immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than native born Americans: > > > https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant > > > ### TL:DR. Don't believe it. Illegal immigrants tend to be less intelligent than legal immigrants, and they live in the penumbra of the law. Less intelligent people are more likely to commit crimes. People living outside the law are more likely to commit crimes and less likely to report them. I was not born yesterday, I know how a piece of propaganda sounds like, and I am willing to come out on a limb and derive conclusions from more basic facts rather than to believe whatever shows up in a political mass media discussion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 14 13:38:00 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 09:38:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > *As a libertarian I explicitly renounce the right to dictate to others > who they should associate with. * > OK, but how big can a place be that you could still say any member in it is "associated" with every other member? Apparently you believe any person in the USA is "associated" with every other person in that country, and in a way that's true. The USA is pretty big but it is not the biggest there is. And Harcore libertarians believe all nation states are artificial illegitimate divisions anyway and the undisputed largest group of "associated" people is the entire population of planet Earth. So does any person on Earth have the right to kill any other person on the Earth if they don't want to be "associated" with them on the same planet? > >> Even the libertarian think tank The Cato Institute concluded that >> illegal immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than native born >> Americans: >> >> >> https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant >> > > > *### TL:DR. Don't believe it. Illegal immigrants tend to be less > intelligent than legal immigrants, and they live in the penumbra of the > law. Less intelligent people are more likely to commit crimes.* > Interesting theory. The history of Science is full of interesting theories and nearly all of them turned out to be dead wrong. > *> People living outside the law are more likely to commit crimes and less > likely to report them.* > Less intelligent criminals are more likely to get caught than more intelligent criminals, so if your theory is correct you'd expect there would be an excess of Illegal immigrants in prison but, unless you count illegal immigration itself as a crime, no such excess has been found. Rafal I'm curious, before June 16 2015 when Trump came down that escalator to start his campaign for presadent and talked about hordes of foreign rapists and murders attacking the country did you considered Illegal immigration to be number one on the list of human existential problems? > > *I was not born yesterday, I know how a piece of propaganda sounds like* > So even the libertarian Cato Institute, well known for its fierce advocacy of Free Markets, Limited Government and other libertarian ideas, is a source of fake news and fake statistics. So where can one find the unvarnished truth? Fox news? Breitbart? Supermarket tabloids? Perhaps one should just stick with the only information source of known infallibility, the lips of Donald Trump. Rafal, just like you I have political and philosophical likes and dislikes, but unlike you I have no loyalty to ideas and I like the scientific method much better than anything in politics or philosophy. So in a debate if I realize my predisposition does not fit the facts and the other guy is arguing from a logically stronger position than my own I abandon my previous idea and embrace the new one as my own. If nothing else this tactic certainly makes it much easier to engage in future debates. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue May 14 14:18:08 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:18:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: ### TL:DR. Don't believe it. Illegal immigrants tend to be less intelligent > than legal immigrants, and they live in the penumbra of the law. Less > intelligent people are more likely to commit crimes. People living outside > the law are more likely to commit crimes and less likely to report them. I > was not born yesterday, I know how a piece of propaganda sounds like, and I > am willing to come out on a limb and derive conclusions from more basic > facts rather than to believe whatever shows up in a political mass media > discussion. > I believe it. Undocumented immigrants know that if they interact with police their status will likely be discovered and they'll be deported. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 14 16:22:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:22:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight Message-ID: We've talked about it before, to no conclusion. Maybe we still don't have any answers but maybe we need to talk again. The immigrants who come in to pick peas and so on are going to be dead weight when mechanical harvesters are up to the job, as Spike said. As we all know, this is happening everywhere and will only get worse as tech and nano tech and AI improve. So should we keep immigrants out now because they are going to be dead weight later? Even if so, what are we going to do with the dead weight we have and the added weight from future tech toss-asides? Just as we pay farmers (that is, giant corporations) not to plant things, we can pay people to stay home, as we have no use for them outside of picking up trash, etc. Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to pay off debts. Japan wants to increase the birth rate but will probably not succeed. Fewer mouths to feed seem like a big plus to me, but what about the debts? I can't start this conversation as I have no financial sense. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed May 15 07:43:15 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 00:43:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <669436918.688251.1557902501929@mail.yahoo.com> References: <669436918.688251.1557902501929@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190515004315.Horde.LRdZdmSlSkWvskzDVjuu6EN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > We've talked about it before, to no conclusion.? Maybe we still > don't have any answers but maybe we need to talk again. > The immigrants who come in to pick peas and so on are going to be > dead weight when mechanical harvesters are up to the job, as Spike > said.? As we all know, this is happening everywhere and will only > get worse as tech and nano tech and AI improve. > So should we keep immigrants out now because they are going to be > dead weight later?? Even if so, what are we going to do with the > dead weight we have and the added weight from future tech toss-asides? The problem of how to deal with tech-displaced workers is a problem that will affect all of us, not just immigrants. Sure one can argue that there will always be new high-tech jobs opening up to service emerging technologies but the number of those jobs will never keep pace with the number of people that will need them who are otherwise completely qualified to do the job. In other words, demand for skilled labor will always lag behind supply in an increasingly automated world. What to do with the surplus qualified professionals who would also be "dead weight"? > Just as we pay farmers (that is, giant corporations) not to plant > things, we can pay people to stay home, as we have no use for them > outside of picking up trash, etc. How about we send them back to school and pay them a stipend until they learn something industry or government needs? Like a universal basic income with the crucial difference that they are required to learn skills that society may need at some future date in exchange for their keep. Kind of like a "ready reserve" of skilled labor? > Another issue:? 98 countries according to Google have birth rates > below replacement.? Result:? fewer people working to support the > retired and to pay off debts. Test tube babies and artificial wombs? To be honest, as far as dystopian futures go, I would prefer Huxley's "Brave New World" over Orwell's "1984" any day. > Japan wants to increase the birth rate > but will probably not succeed. Fewer mouths to feed seem like a big > , plus to me, but what about the debts?? I can't start this > conversation as I have no financial sense. That's an interesting question: When you borrow money from future generations who don't end up being born, does the debt still exist? Did it ever actually exist in the first place? Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 15 13:34:44 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 09:34:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > So should we keep immigrants out now because they are going to be dead > weight later? > All of us, not just illegal immigrants and farm laborers, will become "dead weight" because it is only a matter of time before a machine can do your job, whatever it is, better than you can. > > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below > replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to > pay off debts. > I submit that the insufficiency of wealth creation will not be a problem in the future because people will not be the only thing that can create wealth and pay off debts. Even today the world has never had more wealth, the problem is thatnever in the history of the world has that wealth been more unequally distributed. The richest 8 people in the world have more wealth than the entire poorest half of the entire human race, that's 3.8 billion people. Think of it, 8 people versus 3.8 *BILLION*. I just don't see how anyone can look at that statistic and not see trouble coming unless something radical changes mighty damn fast. And Trump's additional tax breaks for the wealthy is not the sort of change I'm talking about. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 14:12:57 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 09:12:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: it is only a matter of time before a machine can do your job, whatever it is, better than you can. john clark This assumes that AIs will become as creative and original as people. It will take that to be a good teacher at an advanced level. Yes, presenting facts is easy. But thinking outside the box (excuse the trite cliche') is what separates good teachers from superior ones. And as for grading essay tests, well.......far in the future. But if you are right then there are no jobs for anyone. bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 8:39 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:26 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > So should we keep immigrants out now because they are going to be dead >> weight later? >> > > All of us, not just illegal immigrants and farm laborers, will become > "dead weight" because it is only a matter of time before a machine can do > your job, whatever it is, better than you can. > > >> > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates >> below replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired >> and to pay off debts. >> > > I submit that the insufficiency of wealth creation will not be a problem > in the future because people will not be the only thing that can create > wealth and pay off debts. Even today the world has never had more wealth, > the problem is thatnever in the history of the world has that wealth been > more unequally distributed. The richest 8 people in the world have more > wealth than the entire poorest half of the entire human race, that's 3.8 > billion people. Think of it, 8 people versus 3.8 *BILLION*. I just don't > see how anyone can look at that statistic and not see trouble coming unless > something radical changes mighty damn fast. And Trump's additional tax > breaks for the wealthy is not the sort of change I'm talking about. > > John K Clark > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 15 14:30:09 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 07:30:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark The richest 8 people in the world have more wealth than the entire poorest half of the entire human race, that's 3.8 billion people. Think of it, 8 people versus 3.8 BILLION. ?John K Clark John I have heard that statistic before but I don?t believe it. Wealth isn?t just currency or gold or any arbitrary measure of wealth. Imagine if the 8 richest people pooled their funds and tried to buy the land occupied by the 3.8 billion poorest people. What fraction of that land could they buy? Not much. If 8 people have more gold than 3.8 billion poor, that isn?t a problem. If the big 8 own more silver, that isn?t a problem. If 8 people own more land than 3.8 billion, that too is arbitrary for most people own no land, yet all living people live somewhere. Shrugs. I see no evidence of instability from it. This is not to say we don?t have real problems, for we do. I don?t know what happens when we get hordes of people living in tents along freeways with nowhere to go. We can easily imagine them becoming increasingly hostile to ordinary people. They are not hostile against the 8 people with all that money (for they don?t even know who or where they are (do you?)) but rather the very poor become hostile against those ordinary people who are right there on the other side of that freeway wall, who own a house with a mortgage and a car in the driveway. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 15 14:39:27 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 07:39:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005701d50b2c$00248e80$006dab80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] dead weight it is only a matter of time before a machine can do your job, whatever it is, better than you can. john clark This assumes that AIs will become as creative and original as people. It will take that to be a good teacher at an advanced level. Yes, presenting facts is easy. But thinking outside the box (excuse the trite cliche') is what separates good teachers from superior ones. And as for grading essay tests, well.......far in the future. But if you are right then there are no jobs for anyone. bill w BillW, I invite you to look around in Khan Academy. It?s online, it?s free: https://www.khanacademy.org/ Go ahead, dig around in there. Never mind all the traditional models of grading and finding ways to do accreditation and all the stuff schools have always done. Look at what is now available free for anyone anywhere in the world, and consider the places in the world taking the most advantage of it: those places which have struggled to provide adequate schools and teachers. Now, perhaps there is a marvelously adequate (and in my opinion superior in many respects) alternative that does not require a school building or teachers. If a student from India or China or Africa masters everything currently available free in Khan Academy, I would bet on that student in an SAT contest against American public school students. I am astonished it took so long to get good educational curricula online, but here it is. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 15:57:30 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 10:57:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <005701d50b2c$00248e80$006dab80$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d50b2c$00248e80$006dab80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I am astonished it took so long to get good educational curricula online, but here it is. spike Who doesn't require a teacher? Someone who is learning facts. I very much doubt that there exists an AI who can adjust to the student's level of thinking - not just answering questions. I have no doubt that many students on Khan need no teachers *for what they are learning. *Is there any data on what level of student learns best on Khan and who doesn't? In my opinion, it's the bottom end of the curve that need the most help when it comes to going beyond facts to theories and other abstractions. Perhaps even the lower 3/4s of the curve. I have many doubts that any AI can construct a test of critical thinking or anything else beyond facts. Humans are making up the tests on Khan, right? Anything beyond regurgitation, that is. In my upper level classes I required original examples and they could not be close to the ones I provided or the book did. This was the hardest for the students and sometimes the hardest to evaluate. I will give up these arguments when we reach the Singularity (not in my time). bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 9:45 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dead weight > > > > it is only a matter of time before a machine can do your job, whatever it > is, better than you can. john clark > > > > This assumes that AIs will become as creative and original as people. It > will take that to be a good teacher at an advanced level. Yes, presenting > facts is easy. But thinking outside the box (excuse the trite cliche') is > what separates good teachers from superior ones. And as for grading essay > tests, well.......far in the future. > > > > But if you are right then there are no jobs for anyone. > > > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, I invite you to look around in Khan Academy. It?s online, it?s > free: > > > > https://www.khanacademy.org/ > > > > Go ahead, dig around in there. Never mind all the traditional models of > grading and finding ways to do accreditation and all the stuff schools have > always done. Look at what is now available free for anyone anywhere in the > world, and consider the places in the world taking the most advantage of > it: those places which have struggled to provide adequate schools and > teachers. Now, perhaps there is a marvelously adequate (and in my opinion > superior in many respects) alternative that does not require a school > building or teachers. > > > > If a student from India or China or Africa masters everything currently > available free in Khan Academy, I would bet on that student in an SAT > contest against American public school students. > > > > I am astonished it took so long to get good educational curricula online, > but here it is. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed May 15 16:12:33 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 09:12:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <2105957961.848982.1557934206314@mail.yahoo.com> References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> <2105957961.848982.1557934206314@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190515091233.Horde.bZQXd8Z9cnnOLmSuXaYDnvn@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > This is not to say we don?t have real problems, for we do. ?I don?t > know what happens when we get hordes of people living in tents along > freeways with nowhere to go.? We can easily imagine them becoming > increasingly hostile to ordinary people.? They are not hostile > against the 8 people with all that money (for they don?t even know > who or where they are (do you?)) but rather the very poor become > hostile against those ordinary people who are right there on the > other side of that freeway wall, who own a house with a mortgage and > a car in the driveway. I heard a story once about a man who had a koi pond where the koi were listless, depressed, and aggressive toward one another. The man sought the advice of a sage and the sage told him to put a large rock in the koi pond. The man followed the sage's advice and it worked in improving the temperament of the fish. When the man asked the sage why the rock made such a big difference in the happiness of his koi, the sage told him that the rock gave purpose and hope to the fishes' lives. Whereas before the fish could see the whole pond at once and thus there was nowhere to go and nothing to do. The fish thereby became depressed and angry. The rock however always hid a part of the pond from the fishes' vision, therefore the koi kept swimming in circles around the rock to see what was on the other side. In short, the rock gave purpose and meaning to lives of the fish, because it kept them busy trying to find out what was on the other side of the rock. The point of my story is that you can't solve the problem of the technologically displaced by simply giving them money. You also have to give them purpose. That is why I think keeping the displaced persons in school indefinitely is a possible solution to the problem. Doing homework, studying for tests, working on projects and art, etc. will give these people something to do and goals to accomplish while they collect their dole from the government in order to continue buying goods and services from John's eight rich guys and their automated factories. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 15 16:27:29 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 09:27:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <005701d50b2c$00248e80$006dab80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002a01d50b3b$17a4f400$46eedc00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] dead weight >>?I am astonished it took so long to get good educational curricula online, but here it is. spike >?Who doesn't require a teacher? Someone who is learning facts. ? Hmmm, well really what Khan Academy does best is to teach skills and techniques. Let?s take math, since that tends to be objectively measurable. Khan started making videos explaining how to do certain techniques. Eventually experts in the field began recognizing the value of what he was doing, and helped round out the curriculum, some contributing videos on some particular skill or technique they thought Sal didn?t explain adequately. Eventually a complete math curriculum evolved in which all the identifiable discrete skills in a typical primary mathematics education up through calculus and including elementary differential equations (typical sophomore-level engineering math curriculum) was presented in a collection of discrete skills, which has a definite finite number. The number of discrete skills from addition to differential equations is? 1497 OK, Sal Khan claims there are 1497 discrete mathematical skills that should take a prole from addition thru differential equations. Each of those discrete skills has four levels of mastery, so to get all that, a prole would need to achieve a total of 5988 level-up assessments. This becomes a clear and distinct goal for the highly-motivated student. My unapologetic claim is this: any student who does all that will be a student who can hurl back anything any high school math class will throw at her, rip through it like a hot chainsaw through butter. She will scarcely break a sweat. She will soar with the eagles on the math SAT. The fun part: those 1497 discrete skills are grouped as a ?mission? called World of Math. But? there are other math classes offered in Khan Academy beyond the World of Math, and they too are excellent. Sal Khan doesn?t teach those generally. He gets guys who really really know their stuff, such as the excellent engaging Grant Sanderson. Any sufficiently Grant-like mathematician is indistinguishable from god. You gotta check out this guy?s work, oh my. BillW, what you are pointing out is that we don?t know how to measure subjective areas of knowledge. All we know how to measure are objective fields of study. I don?t know the answer to that one. I am no closer now than I was several years ago. Suggestions welcome, but in the meantime, check out Grant Sanderson. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 15 16:52:04 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 09:52:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> ? > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to pay off debts. Eh, not necessarily. Birth isn?t the only way for a country to get new citizens, and really isn?t even the best way. If a country allows in and naturalizes only those that country chooses, then that country gets people who are capable of contributing to pay those debts, rather than those who contribute to creating more debt. That?s the difference between legal and illegal immigration. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 17:09:41 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 12:09:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Yeah, it's really hard to do statistics on immigration when wars are driving people over national lines. I think we are welcoming top people to our universities, many of whom stay, right? But I think we may be the most welcoming nation there is, or we used to be. The Japanese aren't exactly welcoming. Don't know about other countries. bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:56 AM wrote: > > > > > > > ? > > > > > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below > replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to > pay off debts. > > > > > > Eh, not necessarily. Birth isn?t the only way for a country to get new > citizens, and really isn?t even the best way. If a country allows in and > naturalizes only those that country chooses, then that country gets people > who are capable of contributing to pay those debts, rather than those who > contribute to creating more debt. > > > > That?s the difference between legal and illegal immigration. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed May 15 17:11:24 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 10:11:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On May 15, 2019, at 9:52 AM, wrote: > > ? > > > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to pay off debts. > > > Eh, not necessarily. Birth isn?t the only way for a country to get new citizens, and really isn?t even the best way. If a country allows in and naturalizes only those that country chooses, then that country gets people who are capable of contributing to pay those debts, rather than those who contribute to creating more debt. > > That?s the difference between legal and illegal immigration. No, it isn?t. Legal immigration is simply immigration that?s allowed by law. Illegal immigration is that immigration which is not allowed by law. As for what contributes to US public debts, immigrants, legal or not, actually take less from the public fund per capita than non-immigrants. (This should painfully obvious for illegal immigrants, since the law limits what they can get and the risk of being arrested and deported typically makes them not want to interface with welfare agencies, schools, or any place where they might come under scrutiny by the government or snitches.) Also, you speak as if everyone can easily determine what?s best for a nation. That?s not only very hard to determine, but it?s naive to think that?s what guides public immigration policy (or national politics in general). It?s not the nation (or in your usage ?country?) that allows this or that. It?s whoever?s in charge of the state. You might fancifully believe that the state represents the nation, embodies the desires and opinions of 320 or so million people, but that?s not the reality. Since others have raised it here too, the libertarian position on immigration is open borders or, rather, no borders. People should be free to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather than wherever some ruling elite decides (whether that decision involves a voting majority or whatnot). Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 17:21:36 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 12:21:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <002a01d50b3b$17a4f400$46eedc00$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d50b2c$00248e80$006dab80$@rainier66.com> <002a01d50b3b$17a4f400$46eedc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have no way of discussing a math program with you, but what Khan has seems great to me as you describe it. But do you think, say, philosophy can be taught without teachers? The ideal teaching of that and many other courses is face to face with the teacher - one on one. That way the teacher can assess the student's level and start there, bringing in just the right philosopher for support of the ideas or contrast. This is the way I taught Personality. If all I wanted to do was for the students to regurgitate each theory's ideas, a teacher would not have been necessary. This is far from my idea of quality teaching and learning. Please know that in no way am I arguing with what Khan is doing or trying to do. I am in full support. I just want to add that there are some things that for the nonce, cannot be taught that way. Through high school for many subjects? Good. But maybe not in assessing the importance of Darwin or Shelley. I suppose in a way I am reacting against the loss of the profession of teachers. Well, not loss per se, but changes that take the live teacher out of the equation. I have picked cotton and know that there are much better ways. But ways of teaching some things that leave out live teachers is abhorrent to me even if it doesn't affect me at all. bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:31 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] dead weight > > > > >>?I am astonished it took so long to get good educational curricula > online, but here it is. > > spike > > > > >?Who doesn't require a teacher? Someone who is learning facts. ? > > > > > > Hmmm, well really what Khan Academy does best is to teach skills and > techniques. > > > > Let?s take math, since that tends to be objectively measurable. Khan > started making videos explaining how to do certain techniques. Eventually > experts in the field began recognizing the value of what he was doing, and > helped round out the curriculum, some contributing videos on some > particular skill or technique they thought Sal didn?t explain adequately. > > > > Eventually a complete math curriculum evolved in which all the > identifiable discrete skills in a typical primary mathematics education up > through calculus and including elementary differential equations (typical > sophomore-level engineering math curriculum) was presented in a collection > of discrete skills, which has a definite finite number. The number of > discrete skills from addition to differential equations is? > > > > 1497 > > > > OK, Sal Khan claims there are 1497 discrete mathematical skills that > should take a prole from addition thru differential equations. > > > > Each of those discrete skills has four levels of mastery, so to get all > that, a prole would need to achieve a total of 5988 level-up assessments. > This becomes a clear and distinct goal for the highly-motivated student. > > > > My unapologetic claim is this: any student who does all that will be a > student who can hurl back anything any high school math class will throw at > her, rip through it like a hot chainsaw through butter. She will scarcely > break a sweat. She will soar with the eagles on the math SAT. > > > > The fun part: those 1497 discrete skills are grouped as a ?mission? called > World of Math. But? there are other math classes offered in Khan Academy > beyond the World of Math, and they too are excellent. Sal Khan doesn?t > teach those generally. He gets guys who really really know their stuff, > such as the excellent engaging Grant Sanderson. Any sufficiently > Grant-like mathematician is indistinguishable from god. You gotta check > out this guy?s work, oh my. > > > > BillW, what you are pointing out is that we don?t know how to measure > subjective areas of knowledge. All we know how to measure are objective > fields of study. > > > > I don?t know the answer to that one. I am no closer now than I was > several years ago. Suggestions welcome, but in the meantime, check out > Grant Sanderson. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 17:25:25 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 12:25:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: People should be free to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather than wherever some ruling elite decides (whether that decision involves a voting majority or whatnot). Regards, Dan You accuse others of being naive, but the above is the most naive thing I have seen since I joined this group. bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 12:23 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On May 15, 2019, at 9:52 AM, > wrote: > > ? > > > > > Another issue: 98 countries according to Google have birth rates below > replacement. Result: fewer people working to support the retired and to > pay off debts. > > > > > > Eh, not necessarily. Birth isn?t the only way for a country to get new > citizens, and really isn?t even the best way. If a country allows in and > naturalizes only those that country chooses, then that country gets people > who are capable of contributing to pay those debts, rather than those who > contribute to creating more debt. > > > > That?s the difference between legal and illegal immigration. > > > No, it isn?t. Legal immigration is simply immigration that?s allowed by > law. Illegal immigration is that immigration which is not allowed by law. > > As for what contributes to US public debts, immigrants, legal or not, > actually take less from the public fund per capita than non-immigrants. > (This should painfully obvious for illegal immigrants, since the law limits > what they can get and the risk of being arrested and deported typically > makes them not want to interface with welfare agencies, schools, or any > place where they might come under scrutiny by the government or snitches.) > > Also, you speak as if everyone can easily determine what?s best for a > nation. That?s not only very hard to determine, but it?s naive to think > that?s what guides public immigration policy (or national politics in > general). It?s not the nation (or in your usage ?country?) that allows this > or that. It?s whoever?s in charge of the state. You might fancifully > believe that the state represents the nation, embodies the desires and > opinions of 320 or so million people, but that?s not the reality. > > Since others have raised it here too, the libertarian position on > immigration is open borders or, rather, no borders. People should be free > to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather than wherever some ruling > elite decides (whether that decision involves a voting majority or > whatnot). > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed May 15 18:43:30 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 11:43:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1454D9B8-5AFF-44E4-AC76-20AE8A22167A@gmail.com> On May 15, 2019, at 10:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > People should be free to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather than wherever some ruling elite decides (whether that decision involves a voting majority or whatnot). > > Regards, > > Dan > > You accuse others of being naive, but the above is the most naive thing I have seen since I joined this group. > bill w Curious how you ignored the first part of my paragraph.... You know, the part where I state: ?Since others have raised it here too, the libertarian position on immigration is open borders or, rather, no borders.? Don?t you feel that maybe that has some relevance here? But let me ignore that. Why do you believe the part you quoted is naive? To guess, perhaps you believe I think the libertarian position is popular or could somehow become policy in the US soon (in the next five years). No, I think the libertarian position is unpopular and would be very unlucky to become the policy in the US anytime soon. (I don?t believe it?s impossible for it ever become popular or _the_ policy. After all, people?s views can change and so can other factors. But I don?t believe that simply because I think something is the right thing to do that others will necessarily both agree with and agree with me enough to impact policy.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 15 19:47:01 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:47:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <1454D9B8-5AFF-44E4-AC76-20AE8A22167A@gmail.com> References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> <1454D9B8-5AFF-44E4-AC76-20AE8A22167A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think it's naive because open borders everywhere would create world-wide chaos - people going to the first world countries, overwhelming the systems - boatloads of people from Bangladesh, Kenya, Indonesia and scores more. And the places they left would not be able to function at all. Central America and Mexico, for one region, would nearly empty into Texas, New Mexico, and so on. I believe in freedom and in ideals, but I also believe in reality, and the reality is that open borders would never, ever work from a practical point of view. Convince me otherwise. Iealism bill w On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 1:47 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: > On May 15, 2019, at 10:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > People should be free to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather > than wherever some ruling elite decides (whether that decision involves a > voting majority or whatnot). > > Regards, > > Dan > > You accuse others of being naive, but the above is the most naive thing I > have seen since I joined this group. > bill w > > > Curious how you ignored the first part of my paragraph.... You know, the > part where I state: ?Since others have raised it here too, the libertarian > position on immigration is open borders or, rather, no borders.? Don?t you > feel that maybe that has some relevance here? > > But let me ignore that. Why do you believe the part you quoted is naive? > To guess, perhaps you believe I think the libertarian position is popular > or could somehow become policy in the US soon (in the next five years). No, > I think the libertarian position is unpopular and would be very unlucky to > become the policy in the US anytime soon. (I don?t believe it?s impossible > for it ever become popular or _the_ policy. After all, people?s views can > change and so can other factors. But I don?t believe that simply because I > think something is the right thing to do that others will necessarily both > agree with and agree with me enough to impact policy.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 01:02:06 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 21:02:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 9:38 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > *As a libertarian I explicitly renounce the right to dictate to others >> who they should associate with. * >> > > OK, but how big can a place be that you could still say any member in it > is "associated" with every other member? Apparently you believe any person > in the USA is "associated" with every other person in that country, and in > a way that's true. The USA is pretty big but it is not the biggest there > is. And Harcore libertarians believe all nation states are artificial > illegitimate divisions anyway and the undisputed largest group of > "associated" people is the entire population of planet Earth. So does any > person on Earth have the right to kill any other person on the Earth if > they don't want to be "associated" with them on the same planet? > ### You shouldn't argue in this way. I said I renounce the right to dictate to others who they should associate with, and you reply by asking me if I want to kill anybody I don't want to associate with. Do you see the disconnect between my rather meek suggestion and your question? That's not how you discuss issues, that's how you do politics. I don't intend to do politics. ==================== > > >> >> Even the libertarian think tank The Cato Institute concluded that >>> illegal immigrants in Texas committed fewer crimes than native born >>> Americans: >>> >>> >>> https://www.cato.org/publications/immigration-research-policy-brief/criminal-immigrants-texas-illegal-immigrant >>> >> >> > *### TL:DR. Don't believe it. Illegal immigrants tend to be less >> intelligent than legal immigrants, and they live in the penumbra of the >> law. Less intelligent people are more likely to commit crimes.* >> > > Interesting theory. The history of Science is full of interesting theories > and nearly all of them turned out to be dead wrong. > > >> *> People living outside the law are more likely to commit crimes and >> less likely to report them.* >> > > Less intelligent criminals are more likely to get caught than more > intelligent criminals, so if your theory is correct you'd expect there > would be an excess of Illegal immigrants in prison but, unless you count > illegal immigration itself as a crime, no such excess has been found. Rafal > I'm curious, before June 16 2015 when Trump came down that escalator to > start his campaign for presadent and talked about hordes of foreign rapists > and murders attacking the country did you considered Illegal immigration to > be number one on the list of human existential problems? > > >> > *I was not born yesterday, I know how a piece of propaganda sounds >> like* >> > > So even the libertarian Cato Institute, well known for its fierce advocacy > of Free Markets, Limited Government and other libertarian ideas, is a > source of fake news and fake statistics. So where can one find the > unvarnished truth? Fox news? Breitbart? Supermarket tabloids? Perhaps one > should just stick with the only information source of known infallibility, > the lips of Donald Trump. > > Rafal, just like you I have political and philosophical likes and > dislikes, but unlike you I have no loyalty to ideas and I like the > scientific method much better than anything in politics or philosophy. So > in a debate if I realize my predisposition does not fit the facts and the > other guy is arguing from a logically stronger position than my own I > abandon my previous idea and embrace the new one as my own. If nothing > else this tactic certainly makes it much easier to engage in future debates. > > ### No, John, I will not do politics with you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 01:44:11 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 21:44:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:34 AM wrote: > >> The richest 8 people in the world have more wealth than the entire >> poorest half of the entire human race, that's 3.8 billion people. Think of >> it, 8 people versus 3.8 *BILLION*. ?John K Clark > > > > *John I have heard that statistic before but I don?t believe it. Wealth > isn?t just currency or gold or any arbitrary measure of wealth. * > The money you have is a measure of how much control over the wealth generating machinery you have, and 8 people have as much control as where to point it as 3.8 BILLION people. Far from slowing down the concentration of wealth trend is acceleration, and no matter how you try to spin it that just ain't healthy. It is a mathematical certainty this trend will not continue, the only uncertainty is how much blood will be spilled when it does. > *> Imagine if the 8 richest people pooled their funds and tried to buy the > land occupied by the 3.8 billion poorest people.* > In the modern world land is no longer the principle wealth generating mechanism and its importance will decline even more in the coming years. But Imagine if the poorest 3.8 billion people tried to buy control of real wealth like Apple Corporation for example..They would fail > *> What fraction of that land could they buy? Not much.* > I don't know why those super ultra mega rich people would want all that slum land, but if they did and tried to evict the people living there they'd get their throats cut. > > Shrugs. I see no evidence of instability from it. > I sure do, I see democracies declining all over the world. I think MASSIVE inequality is the fundamental reason unhappy people in the USA elected a creature like Donald Trump to be the most powerful man in the world, and I think its the reason for the recent worldwide rise in fascism from the Philippines to South America to Europe. Even Russia, which briefly flirted with something that might almost be called freedom has now, with Putin's help, sunk back into totalitarianism. *> If 8 people have more gold than 3.8 billion poor, that isn?t a problem.* i think that's ignoring the lessons of history. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 01:55:43 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 21:55:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:18 AM Dave Sill wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:30 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ### TL:DR. Don't believe it. Illegal immigrants tend to be less >> intelligent than legal immigrants, and they live in the penumbra of the >> law. Less intelligent people are more likely to commit crimes. People >> living outside the law are more likely to commit crimes and less likely to >> report them. I was not born yesterday, I know how a piece of propaganda >> sounds like, and I am willing to come out on a limb and derive conclusions >> from more basic facts rather than to believe whatever shows up in a >> political mass media discussion. >> > > I believe it. Undocumented immigrants know that if they interact with > police their status will likely be discovered and they'll be deported. > > ### Illegal immigrants know that the likelihood of being actually deported is very low. Only 81,000 illegals were deported in FY 2017. This is a drop in the bucket compared to the numbers of crimes committed by illegals. According to federal statistics, illegals are 2.5 more likely to be sentenced in federal courts for crime than citizens in the US, contradicting the Cato propaganda. There is absolutely no doubt that immigrants and native citizens very often differ in their crime rates. With some combinations of host nation and immigrant source the relative differences are astronomical. For example, Algerians in Germany commit rape 20 times more often (2000%) than Germans. The Chinese in the same country however are about half as likely to commit rape as the locals. Obviously, anybody not completely befuddled by a political fervor realizes that humans differ, they differ individually and collectively, statistically and predictably, based on immigrant origin country IQ and crime rate. These differences have implications for life and death, not to mention economic productivity. Failing to discriminate against individuals entering a country based on their likelihood of harming citizens will harm the citizens. It sounds like a tautology because it almost is. On the other hand, a reasonable immigration policy is likely to have some efficacy in excluding dangerous and harmful or non-contributing individuals and will benefit citizens. It is only in an irrational political argument that this obvious truth could be denied. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 02:01:14 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:01:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 1:19 PM John Clark wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 12:36 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > At least some immigration is good: farmers need pickers and the >> immigrants do it and no one else wants those back-breaking jobs. >> > > > Foreign born immigrant Sergey Brin hasn't done much farm work but he did > co-found Google, and foreign born Elon Musk has also done one or two > interesting things. The current total is 45 immigrants from 27 countries > have become billionaires in the USA. > > ### How come ICE didn't find out about Mr Musk yet? Shouldn't he keep things on the down-low, in fear of deportation? Ah, wait, Mr Musk came to the US legally! And yes, I came to the US legally, too. So why do you mention him and other highly successful legal immigrants in a discussion of illegal immigration? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 02:18:51 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:18:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:18 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > it is only a matter of time before a machine can do your job, whatever it > is, better than you can. john clark > > This assumes that AIs will become as creative and original as people. > If you propose an unusual solution to a problem that turns out to work extreamly well but I can't understand why it works and even you can't say why the idea popped into into your head then we'd say you were being creative; but that's just the situation with neural nets that teach themselves in just a few hours how to play Chess and Go at a superhuman level. They make moves that at first seem crazy but turn out to be of transcendental brilliance, and the men who built it can not explain why it made the move it did and just like a creative person the neural net cant explain how it works either. > *> But if you are right then there are no jobs for anyone.* > Exactly, and things are moving so fast we'd better start taking seriously ideas we'd all (including me) consider utterly wacky just 10 years ago, like universal basic income. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 02:42:59 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:42:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:34 AM wrote: > > > This is not to say we don?t have real problems, for we do. I don?t know > what happens when we get hordes of people living in tents along freeways > with nowhere to go. We can easily imagine them becoming increasingly > hostile to ordinary people. They are not hostile against the 8 people with > all that money (for they don?t even know who or where they are (do you?)) > but rather the very poor become hostile against those ordinary people who > are right there on the other side of that freeway wall, who own a house > with a mortgage and a car in the driveway. > > > ### Add to it that the people in tents came in bearing the flag of a foreign nation, may be unwilling to learn the language of their host and have lower IQ than the hosts. Civil wars broke out over less. I cannot overstress the importance of compatibility and loyalty in prospective immigrants. Immigrants must enter with the intention and the ability to peacefully and productively integrate with us. People who cannot or do not want to find a productive niche in the host society should not be invited and should not be allowed entry. Immigrants must be loyal to us, American citizens. Otherwise, why should we let them in? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 16 02:43:19 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:43:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019, 10:33 wrote: > If 8 people have more gold than 3.8 billion poor, that isn?t a problem. > Oh stop. Gold is viciously fungible. Gold = money = power = work/time. If 8 people can do more work in a second than 3.8 billion, something is very fucked up. And... something is very fucked up. Just ask Gaia how the cancer is going. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 03:04:21 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:04:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <004301d50b3e$86e30340$94a909c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 1:23 PM Dan TheBookMan wrote: > > Since others have raised it here too, the libertarian position on > immigration is open borders or, rather, no borders. People should be free > to peacefully migrate wherever they please rather than wherever some ruling > elite decides (whether that decision involves a voting majority or > whatnot). > ### But somebody who enters an area against the express wishes of its owners is clearly breaking a libertarian rule, doesn't she? Ownership of property is one of the sacred principles of our ideology, and property is first and foremost the right of exclusion, the right not to let others enter or use said property. So how can you square that with the no borders position? Can't libertarians organize and coordinate among ourselves? If we can build fences around our houses, why can't we draw lines around our neighborhoods? Please don't tell me that there is a "libertarian position" on borders. I am libertarian and I disagree with you. That doesn't make me or my ideas non-libertarian. Actually, the libertarian position is that people should be free to move wherever they are welcome. Today most opposition to immigration in almost all countries subject to this threat comes from the lower classes, the regular folks, while various factions of the ruling elites often encourage immigration for various reasons. One couldn't guess that from reading your post. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 03:23:30 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:23:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:57 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2019, 10:33 wrote: > >> If 8 people have more gold than 3.8 billion poor, that isn?t a problem. >> > Oh stop. Gold is viciously fungible. Gold = money = power = work/time. > If 8 people can do more work in a second than 3.8 billion, something is > very fucked up. > > And... something is very fucked up. Just ask Gaia how the cancer is going. > >> _ ### Let's run with it for a moment: Who produces more pollution, these 8 evil rich or these 3.8 billion friends of the planet? Who poaches more endangered elephants, the execrable Mr Gates or the 500,000,000 Africans that are his equivalent? Who has a bigger carbon footprint, the monstrous Mr Bezos or a half billion Green sympathizers? Ask Gaia. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 16 03:54:32 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 23:54:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019, 23:26 Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:57 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> On Wed, May 15, 2019, 10:33 wrote: >> >>> If 8 people have more gold than 3.8 billion poor, that isn?t a problem. >>> >> Oh stop. Gold is viciously fungible. Gold = money = power = work/time. >> If 8 people can do more work in a second than 3.8 billion, something is >> very fucked up. >> >> And... something is very fucked up. Just ask Gaia how the cancer is >> going. >> >>> _ > > ### Let's run with it for a moment: Who produces more pollution, these 8 > evil rich or these 3.8 billion friends of the planet? Who poaches more > endangered elephants, the execrable Mr Gates or the 500,000,000 Africans > that are his equivalent? Who has a bigger carbon footprint, the monstrous > Mr Bezos or a half billion Green sympathizers? > > Ask Gaia. > Well now that you ask, tiresome-right-wing-yin to JKC's tiresome-left-wing-yang, Who mines the coltan that enables all the smartphones running Bezos' apps? Who makes the cheap products he is the middleman for? You really think the first world could exist without the third? Maybe some need to suffer. Maybe that is life. It is brutal and as it has always been. Maybe it is silly to think otherwise. But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't fueled by suffering. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu May 16 04:47:44 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 00:47:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > > But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't > fueled by suffering. > >> ### If Mr Bezos was eliminated, let's say by another unfortunate flying accident, what would be the resulting change in average human welfare - net negative, positive or neutral? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu May 16 05:51:32 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 22:51:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] dead weight Message-ID: <20190515225132.Horde.Gjducqw1BX_znt9Mm4OLu9n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:18 AM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: >> *> But if you are right then there are no jobs for anyone.* >> > > Exactly, and things are moving so fast we'd better start taking seriously > ideas we'd all (including me) consider utterly wacky just 10 years ago, > like universal basic income. John, your positions on open borders and universal basic income are logically incompatible. We Americans can't realistically afford a universal welfare state on limited tax revenue if we bestow these public benefits upon anyone who can sneak into the country undetected. Not unless all the world's wealthiest people decided to pay their taxes to the U.S. regardless of their actual citizenship, and that obviously isn't going to happen. You do see that the money has to come from somewhere and the people sneaking in are not the ones that are bringing it with them or paying tax revenue. And that is assuming that they are sneaking in for a better life and not some more nefarious purpose. Which given the world's current political climate is not guaranteed. From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:35:23 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:35:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 9:59 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### Illegal immigrants know that the likelihood of being actually deported > is very low. Only 81,000 illegals were deported in FY 2017. This is a drop > in the bucket compared to the numbers of crimes committed by illegals. > According to federal statistics, illegals are 2.5 more likely to be > sentenced in federal courts for crime than citizens in the US, > contradicting the Cato propaganda. > No, the Cato *data* is for all crime. Federal crime is not representative. There is absolutely no doubt that immigrants and native citizens very often > differ in their crime rates. With some combinations of host nation and > immigrant source the relative differences are astronomical. For example, > Algerians in Germany commit rape 20 times more often (2000%) than Germans. > The Chinese in the same country however are about half as likely to commit > rape as the locals. > > Obviously, anybody not completely befuddled by a political fervor realizes > that humans differ, they differ individually and collectively, > statistically and predictably, based on immigrant origin country IQ and > crime rate. These differences have implications for life and death, not to > mention economic productivity. Failing to discriminate against individuals > entering a country based on their likelihood of harming citizens will harm > the citizens. It sounds like a tautology because it almost is. On the other > hand, a reasonable immigration policy is likely to have some efficacy in > excluding dangerous and harmful or non-contributing individuals and will > benefit citizens. It is only in an irrational political argument that this > obvious truth could be denied. > You really consider yourself a libertarian? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:35:36 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:35:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> *how big can a place be that you could still say any member in it is >> "associated" with every other member? Apparently you believe any person in >> the USA is "associated" with every other person in that country, and in a >> way that's true. The USA is pretty big but it is not the biggest there is. >> And Harcore libertarians believe all nation states are artificial >> illegitimate divisions anyway and the undisputed largest group of >> "associated" people is the entire population of planet Earth. So does any >> person on Earth have the right to kill any other person on the Earth if >> they don't want to be "associated" with them on the same planet?* > > *> ### You shouldn't argue in this way. I said I renounce the right to > dictate to others who they should associate with, and you reply by asking > me if I want to kill anybody I don't want to associate with. Do you see the > disconnect between my rather meek suggestion and your question?* I don't think I was being unfair because you said "*Anybody can live in my home - if and only if they are invited and come voluntarily. Obviously, I do not invite hostiles to my home and, since it's *my* home, on a whim I can bar even nice people from entering*". I agree with most of that except for your use of the word "home", you obviously don't mean the few thousand square feet under your roof but the few million square miles in the entire USA. And even that may be too small because true hardcore libertarians think nations are phoney artificial divisions, so if you count the entire Earth as your "home" do you have the right to kick me off the planet (perhaps into a hypothetical afterlife) if you don't want to be associated with me? You also said "*Illegal immigrants tend to be less intelligent than legal immigrants*". I know of no evidence that supports that idea and can't think of any reason to believe it might be true. I admit I wouldn't be very surprised if it turned out that Illegal immigrants who get caught tend to be less intelligent than Illegal immigrants who don't get caught, but it's just a hunch and I have no evidence to support this hypothesis. *> ### No, John, I will not do politics with you. * That is probably a wise move on your part. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:38:37 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:38:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:09 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > ### How come ICE didn't find out about Mr Musk yet? Shouldn't he keep > things on the down-low, in fear of deportation? > > Ah, wait, Mr Musk came to the US legally! And yes, I came to the US > legally, too. > > So why do you mention him and other highly successful legal immigrants in > a discussion of illegal immigration? > Legal immigration has been cut 80% this year. Obviously they're not just trying to keep the bad guys out. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:55:07 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:55:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019, 00:51 Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> >> But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't >> fueled by suffering. >> >>> > ### If Mr Bezos was eliminated, let's say by another unfortunate flying > accident, what would be the resulting change in average human welfare - net > negative, positive or neutral? > Question with a question. How about if those 3.8 billion were eliminated? Steve Jobs died and nothing happened except Apple got slightly shittier. Bezos is massively replaceable: Bezos-bot: BUY STARBUCKS Amazon: ok On the other hand, if 3.8 billion people used to do the world's dirty work and offload poverty onto died: supply chains would be fucked, there would be terrible rippling political instability across the world...and, there would be a new 3.8 billion poorest people. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:55:26 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:55:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: <20190515225132.Horde.Gjducqw1BX_znt9Mm4OLu9n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190515225132.Horde.Gjducqw1BX_znt9Mm4OLu9n@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 3:02 AM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > *John, your positions on open borders and universal basic income are > logically incompatible.* I am perfectly aware those positions are incompatible, but they are not my positions. I said strict hardcore libertarians believe in open borders, and 10 years ago I was a strict hardcore libertarian but no longer; AI technology has moved faster than I expected and that brand of libertarianism is no longer viable. Yes illegal immigration is on the list of existential problems the human race must face in the next 20 years and so is global warming, but neither one is anywhere near the top of the list. And one thing is certain, Trump's idiot wall will not solve any problem on that list. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 16 14:45:26 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 07:45:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity Message-ID: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> I have long thought of the singularity as being kinda like the Spanish Inquisition: it just shows up unexpected, as it did in Monte Python. But what if. the more gradual singularity model prevails, analogous to the way chess programs just kept getting better and better over the years. I watched that one grow for fifty years. It would appear to be AI from the point of view of a 1970 chess guy, but it isn't. MicroSloth has been experimenting with making Word subtly modify one's writing. It is nothing shocking: it changes the word "man" to person or some gender-neutral version. Policeman becomes police officer, fireman becomes fire fighter. OK. The whole thing has my wheels spinning. I bet we extrapolate on the idea, write software which would modify or translate a passage from politically right to left, to prevent writers from being Twitter-banned. It would automatically delete right wing (or left wing) memes, or switch them. That could be a fun game. I am not sure how it would work, but I don't think it really requires AI to do it. The news people are going nuts over it and saying MicroSloth is using AI, but it isn't that, any more than good chess algorithms are AI. They are just "good" rather than intelligent. Two different things, often conflated. Spike's postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by definition. A real AI could come into existence, then use that algorithm to cover its tracks. It could disguise itself as a PC-editor, merely seeking to make one's writing politically correct, to prevent triggering the masses. Perhaps the singularity could sneak up on us such that when it arrives, no one would notice. Oh, we could make a cubic buttload of money off of this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 15:58:57 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 10:58:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, often conflated. Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by definition. For the first - explanation please. Your definition of intelligence. For the second - you mean that humans cannot write software that turns into AI? They will have to do it themselves?? As for MS - I hope they include a 'turn the damn thing off' button. bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 9:49 AM wrote: > > > > > I have long thought of the singularity as being kinda like the Spanish > Inquisition: it just shows up unexpected, as it did in Monte Python. > > > > But what if? the more gradual singularity model prevails, analogous to the > way chess programs just kept getting better and better over the years. I > watched that one grow for fifty years. It would appear to be AI from the > point of view of a 1970 chess guy, but it isn?t. > > > > MicroSloth has been experimenting with making Word subtly modify one?s > writing. It is nothing shocking: it changes the word ?man? to person or > some gender-neutral version. Policeman becomes police officer, fireman > becomes fire fighter. OK. > > > > The whole thing has my wheels spinning. I bet we extrapolate on the idea, > write software which would modify or translate a passage from politically > right to left, to prevent writers from being Twitter-banned. It would > automatically delete right wing (or left wing) memes, or switch them. That > could be a fun game. > > > > I am not sure how it would work, but I don?t think it really requires AI > to do it. The news people are going nuts over it and saying MicroSloth is > using AI, but it isn?t that, any more than good chess algorithms are AI. > They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, often > conflated. > > > > Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by > definition. > > > > A real AI could come into existence, then use that algorithm to cover its > tracks. It could disguise itself as a PC-editor, merely seeking to make > one?s writing politically correct, to prevent triggering the masses. > > > > Perhaps the singularity could sneak up on us such that when it arrives, no > one would notice. Oh, we could make a cubic buttload of money off of this. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 16:32:56 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 11:32:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] remarkable study Message-ID: from: bill w I have never seen such attention to detail in making the control group equal in every possible way: https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/05/16/723693839/its-not-just-salt-sugar-fat-study-finds-ultra-processed-foods-drive-weight-gain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 16 17:48:23 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 10:48:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 8:59 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] stealth singularity They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, often conflated. Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by definition. >?For the first - explanation please. Your definition of intelligence? OK. Ever since the notion of artificial intelligence was invented (hipsters, when was that?) every time some arbitrary definition of what constitutes intelligence was achieved, the goalposts had to be moved. Reason: we could look at the code, see there was nothing magic or impossible to explain, so? we had to redefine intelligence as something more. If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer intelligence. BillW, this has been particularly difficult on the chess world, as chess programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, artistic and all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently chess doesn?t require intelligence. Consequently? the chess world discovered that? ?we are stupid. Damn that was an ego buster. >?For the second - you mean that humans cannot write software that turns into AI? They will have to do it themselves?? I sure do mean that. Humans are not collectively smart enough to write software which meets our (ever changing) definition of intelligent software. Only AI software is smart enough to write AI software. Just as humans eventually wrote chess software which is better at chess than any of the guys who wrote it, artificial intelligence software can write artificial intelligence software which is more intelligent than itself. When (or if) this happens, it is the singularity. The reason why the singularity hasn?t happened (as far as we know) is that humans are not intelligent enough to write even the dumbest artificial intelligence program. We can?t write AI at all, not even AI which is as stupid as a box of rocks or as dumb as that young representative from NY. We don?t know how. If we can?t even get to that level, software is still far too dumb to write a smarter version of itself. We aren?t smart enough to write software smart enough. Yet. So? on we wait. As for MS - I hope they include a 'turn the damn thing off' button. bill w Thanks for that comment BillW. My mother has been a computer user since the 1960s. She took a minor in computers in her accounting degree in 1972, owned a PDP8 for her accounting business in the 70s. She has been a PC owner and user since 1982. Recently her frustration level has increased steadily to the point where she is ready to dump the whole thing in the trash, all because MicroSloth keeps changing things. In her younger years, that wasn?t a problem, but at age 80? it damn well is a problem. She wants to use the computer to do her things: home crafts, genealogy, hobbies etc, and wants to learn about those things, not mess with new computer stuff anymore, just use it to get to her favorite hobby sites. For some time I have been thinking about a FSB feature to add to one?s computer, which would be kind of an operating system shell. Every time MicroSloth makes any change of any kind, this software would somehow incorporate what it did and translate everything back to work, look and feel exactly the way it did when the user locked it in with the FSB feature. Note on the name: it doesn?t need to be FSB. Picture a cop in a bad neighborhood, hears a noise where it shouldn?t be, sees a perp, draws his weapon and politely suggests FREEZE SLIME BALL! Well, the wretched bastard better damn well do it, better just exactly stop moving forthwith, or get shot down like a rabid dog. OK, freeze slime ball = FSB = stop moving forthwith. Your computer does everything you really need or want, you don?t care to learn any new bells or whistles, you want to stop fooling with the latest software innovation and just use the damn thing for what you want to do with it full stop. So? freeze slime ball: FSB. Some of you computer hipsters, please run with the ball on this. We could help old people and dumb people (two different things, similar difficulties.) We could make a buttload of money. Come on guys, let?s get er dun. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 16 17:57:47 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 10:57:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] overcoming adversity Message-ID: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> Hey check this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html Since we have heard so much lately about rich people and celebrities cheating to get their children into biggity big schools, this adversity score business gives me an idea. Instead of SAT classes that will coach students to get higher SAT scores, we use their existing scores and coach them to maximize their adversity. For instance, a DNA test can probably turn up evidence of being descended from a minority (I have that.) If the diversity score takes into account a family income, one facing retirement might strategically arrange to postpone collection of pensions until after college admissions are complete for instance. If the diversity score takes into account the size of the bank account, a family could draw out all their money and purchase something that doesn't change much and doesn't show up on any asset list, such as platinum. If one is holding platinum, one damn well better not reveal it. For the risk takers, there is BitCoin, which also is not reportable (and have you seen what happened to the value of that stuff in the past month, sheesh.) We could set up a business to help people maximize adversity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 18:27:09 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:27:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] overcoming adversity In-Reply-To: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, make up your mind - are you talking about adversity or diversity? Since you are descended from a minority you could claim diversity. But if you claimed adversity then you are saying that you are hurt and held back in some way because of the minority genes and that's racism. bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:03 PM wrote: > Hey check this: > > > > https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html > > > > Since we have heard so much lately about rich people and celebrities > cheating to get their children into biggity big schools, this adversity > score business gives me an idea. Instead of SAT classes that will coach > students to get higher SAT scores, we use their existing scores and coach > them to maximize their adversity. > > > > For instance, a DNA test can probably turn up evidence of being descended > from a minority (I have that.) If the diversity score takes into account a > family income, one facing retirement might strategically arrange to > postpone collection of pensions until after college admissions are complete > for instance. > > > > If the diversity score takes into account the size of the bank account, a > family could draw out all their money and purchase something that doesn?t > change much and doesn?t show up on any asset list, such as platinum. If > one is holding platinum, one damn well better not reveal it. For the risk > takers, there is BitCoin, which also is not reportable (and have you seen > what happened to the value of that stuff in the past month, sheesh.) > > > > We could set up a business to help people maximize adversity. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 18:31:16 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:31:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Some of you computer hipsters, please run with the ball on this. We could help old people and dumb people (two different things, similar difficulties.) We could make a buttload of money. Come on guys, let?s get er dun. spike Is learning Linux still too hard for seniors? bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:52 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 8:59 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] stealth singularity > > > > They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, > often conflated. > > > > Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by > definition. > > > > >?For the first - explanation please. Your definition of intelligence? > > OK. Ever since the notion of artificial intelligence was invented > (hipsters, when was that?) every time some arbitrary definition of what > constitutes intelligence was achieved, the goalposts had to be moved. > Reason: we could look at the code, see there was nothing magic or > impossible to explain, so? we had to redefine intelligence as something > more. If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer > intelligence. > > BillW, this has been particularly difficult on the chess world, as chess > programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, artistic and > all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently chess doesn?t > require intelligence. Consequently? the chess world discovered that? > > ?we are stupid. > > Damn that was an ego buster. > > > > >?For the second - you mean that humans cannot write software that turns > into AI? They will have to do it themselves?? > > I sure do mean that. Humans are not collectively smart enough to write > software which meets our (ever changing) definition of intelligent > software. Only AI software is smart enough to write AI software. Just as > humans eventually wrote chess software which is better at chess than any of > the guys who wrote it, artificial intelligence software can write > artificial intelligence software which is more intelligent than itself. > > When (or if) this happens, it is the singularity. > > The reason why the singularity hasn?t happened (as far as we know) is that > humans are not intelligent enough to write even the dumbest artificial > intelligence program. We can?t write AI at all, not even AI which is as > stupid as a box of rocks or as dumb as that young representative from NY. > We don?t know how. If we can?t even get to that level, software is still > far too dumb to write a smarter version of itself. We aren?t smart enough > to write software smart enough. Yet. > > So? on we wait. > > > > As for MS - I hope they include a 'turn the damn thing off' button. > > bill w > > > > Thanks for that comment BillW. > > My mother has been a computer user since the 1960s. She took a minor in > computers in her accounting degree in 1972, owned a PDP8 for her accounting > business in the 70s. She has been a PC owner and user since 1982. > Recently her frustration level has increased steadily to the point where > she is ready to dump the whole thing in the trash, all because MicroSloth > keeps changing things. In her younger years, that wasn?t a problem, but at > age 80? it damn well is a problem. She wants to use the computer to do her > things: home crafts, genealogy, hobbies etc, and wants to learn about those > things, not mess with new computer stuff anymore, just use it to get to her > favorite hobby sites. > > For some time I have been thinking about a FSB feature to add to one?s > computer, which would be kind of an operating system shell. Every time > MicroSloth makes any change of any kind, this software would somehow > incorporate what it did and translate everything back to work, look and > feel exactly the way it did when the user locked it in with the FSB > feature. > > Note on the name: it doesn?t need to be FSB. Picture a cop in a bad > neighborhood, hears a noise where it shouldn?t be, sees a perp, draws his > weapon and politely suggests FREEZE SLIME BALL! Well, the wretched bastard > better damn well do it, better just exactly stop moving forthwith, or get > shot down like a rabid dog. OK, freeze slime ball = FSB = stop moving > forthwith. Your computer does everything you really need or want, you > don?t care to learn any new bells or whistles, you want to stop fooling > with the latest software innovation and just use the damn thing for what > you want to do with it full stop. So? freeze slime ball: FSB. > > Some of you computer hipsters, please run with the ball on this. We could > help old people and dumb people (two different things, similar > difficulties.) We could make a buttload of money. Come on guys, let?s > get er dun. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 18:35:30 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:35:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer intelligence. spike Have to query you again - no one is ever going to define any abstract concept to the point where all people accept it, and furthermore, accept the means by which to test it. I really don't know how to respond to your quote above but it bothers me - seems self-contradictory. bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:52 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 8:59 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] stealth singularity > > > > They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, > often conflated. > > > > Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by > definition. > > > > >?For the first - explanation please. Your definition of intelligence? > > OK. Ever since the notion of artificial intelligence was invented > (hipsters, when was that?) every time some arbitrary definition of what > constitutes intelligence was achieved, the goalposts had to be moved. > Reason: we could look at the code, see there was nothing magic or > impossible to explain, so? we had to redefine intelligence as something > more. If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer > intelligence. > > BillW, this has been particularly difficult on the chess world, as chess > programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, artistic and > all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently chess doesn?t > require intelligence. Consequently? the chess world discovered that? > > ?we are stupid. > > Damn that was an ego buster. > > > > >?For the second - you mean that humans cannot write software that turns > into AI? They will have to do it themselves?? > > I sure do mean that. Humans are not collectively smart enough to write > software which meets our (ever changing) definition of intelligent > software. Only AI software is smart enough to write AI software. Just as > humans eventually wrote chess software which is better at chess than any of > the guys who wrote it, artificial intelligence software can write > artificial intelligence software which is more intelligent than itself. > > When (or if) this happens, it is the singularity. > > The reason why the singularity hasn?t happened (as far as we know) is that > humans are not intelligent enough to write even the dumbest artificial > intelligence program. We can?t write AI at all, not even AI which is as > stupid as a box of rocks or as dumb as that young representative from NY. > We don?t know how. If we can?t even get to that level, software is still > far too dumb to write a smarter version of itself. We aren?t smart enough > to write software smart enough. Yet. > > So? on we wait. > > > > As for MS - I hope they include a 'turn the damn thing off' button. > > bill w > > > > Thanks for that comment BillW. > > My mother has been a computer user since the 1960s. She took a minor in > computers in her accounting degree in 1972, owned a PDP8 for her accounting > business in the 70s. She has been a PC owner and user since 1982. > Recently her frustration level has increased steadily to the point where > she is ready to dump the whole thing in the trash, all because MicroSloth > keeps changing things. In her younger years, that wasn?t a problem, but at > age 80? it damn well is a problem. She wants to use the computer to do her > things: home crafts, genealogy, hobbies etc, and wants to learn about those > things, not mess with new computer stuff anymore, just use it to get to her > favorite hobby sites. > > For some time I have been thinking about a FSB feature to add to one?s > computer, which would be kind of an operating system shell. Every time > MicroSloth makes any change of any kind, this software would somehow > incorporate what it did and translate everything back to work, look and > feel exactly the way it did when the user locked it in with the FSB > feature. > > Note on the name: it doesn?t need to be FSB. Picture a cop in a bad > neighborhood, hears a noise where it shouldn?t be, sees a perp, draws his > weapon and politely suggests FREEZE SLIME BALL! Well, the wretched bastard > better damn well do it, better just exactly stop moving forthwith, or get > shot down like a rabid dog. OK, freeze slime ball = FSB = stop moving > forthwith. Your computer does everything you really need or want, you > don?t care to learn any new bells or whistles, you want to stop fooling > with the latest software innovation and just use the damn thing for what > you want to do with it full stop. So? freeze slime ball: FSB. > > Some of you computer hipsters, please run with the ball on this. We could > help old people and dumb people (two different things, similar > difficulties.) We could make a buttload of money. Come on guys, let?s > get er dun. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 16 18:43:18 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:43:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess Message-ID: chess programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, artistic and all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently chess doesn?t require intelligence. spike This is preposterous - Why can't what the chess computer is doing be intelligent? Because you define that what it is doing not intelligence. It seems really out of step when you consider that chess geniuses are generally pretty high IQ people to start with. I think you just don't want to call it intelligent and are wiggling around out of calling it that. For my money, creative, inventive, excellent recall all point to superior intelligence. Here's an idea: restrict the chess computer to the memory level of a great chess player - even the field. Recalling millions of games is an unfair advantage, it seems to me. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 16 19:00:09 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 15:00:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:52 PM wrote: > > > OK. Ever since the notion of artificial intelligence was invented > (hipsters, when was that?) every time some arbitrary definition of what > constitutes intelligence was achieved, the goalposts had to be moved. > Reason: we could look at the code, see there was nothing magic or > impossible to explain, so? we had to redefine intelligence as something > more. If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer > intelligence. > No, the problem is that doing a specific task intelligently doesn't require general intelligence. I can write a perfect tic-tac-toe playing AI, for example, but all it can it play is tic-tac-toe. It can't play hangman or balance a bank account. Chess is vastly harder to play, but chess playing programs still only play chess. Even if they can beat the best human players, they haven't achieved human-level intelligence because they're incapable of doing thousands of other things that humans can do. They can learn new games, but only if they're taught in a way they understand. You can't have a conversation with them where you describe a game and its rules and they learn to play it. This is why Turing proposed what's called the Turing Test: to distinguish general intelligence from the ability to do certain non-trivial tasks. >?For the second - you mean that humans cannot write software that turns > into AI? They will have to do it themselves?? > > I sure do mean that. Humans are not collectively smart enough to write > software which meets our (ever changing) definition of intelligent > software. Only AI software is smart enough to write AI software. Just as > humans eventually wrote chess software which is better at chess than any of > the guys who wrote it, artificial intelligence software can write > artificial intelligence software which is more intelligent than itself. > No, humans can write AI software. We haven't written general, human-level AI software yet, but we will. Google's AlphaZero software was written by humans and is clearly non-general AI. The catch is that AlphaZero doesn't have hard-coded chess playing algorithms, it uses machine learning to teach itself to play. This learning is in the form of huge tables of statistics that neither the programmers nor AlphaZero can explain in terms that would make sense to a human. When (or if) this happens, it is the singularity. > > The reason why the singularity hasn?t happened (as far as we know) is that > humans are not intelligent enough to write even the dumbest artificial > intelligence program. We can?t write AI at all, not even AI which is as > stupid as a box of rocks or as dumb as that young representative from NY. > We don?t know how. If we can?t even get to that level, software is still > far too dumb to write a smarter version of itself. We aren?t smart enough > to write software smart enough. Yet. > > So? on we wait. > Nope, we can and have written lots of narrow AI. With machine learning, a knowledge base, natural language input and output, and a couple other things, we'll have human-level (or better, and maybe faster) general AI. It's close. The question is how much more intelligent than humans will they become, and how quickly. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 16 19:03:53 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 15:03:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 2:41 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Is learning Linux still too hard for seniors? > No. Millions of people use Linux all the time without realizing it via Android and Chrome. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 16 19:25:13 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 12:25:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] overcoming adversity In-Reply-To: References: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b501d50c1d$163821e0$42a865a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace > Subject: Re: [ExI] overcoming adversity Well, make up your mind - are you talking about adversity or diversity? Since you are descended from a minority you could claim diversity. But if you claimed adversity then you are saying that you are hurt and held back in some way because of the minority genes and that's racism. bill w Meh, adversity, diversity, what evs. The only ersity that I care about is university. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 16 19:39:53 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 15:39:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wouldn't call it creative. It is not generating something sui generis. While the results are impressive in terms of play, it is just optimizing for a global minima in the total space of available moves. It is a brute force technique based on learning existing winning play patterns, and optimizing for it with math. Its moves may look like the work of a mad genius from outside, but at its core, it's really just a few equations that have been optimized for using training data. I would not define anything that we have seen out of deep learning so far as intelligent. The AI opponent doesn't have any meta view into the game. It's given a goal and optimizes for it using linear alegbra/calculus/monte carlo techniques. This is a good overview that they were kind enough to share. https://deepmind.com/blog/alphazero-shedding-new-light-grand-games-chess-shogi-and-go/ This gets into the details: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/362/6419/1140.full?ijkey=XGd77kI6W4rSc&keytype=ref&siteid=sci On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 3:01 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > chess programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, > artistic and all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently > chess doesn?t require intelligence. spike > This is preposterous - Why can't what the chess computer is doing be > intelligent? Because you define that what it is doing not intelligence. > It seems really out of step when you consider that chess geniuses are > generally pretty high IQ people to start with. I think you just don't want > to call it intelligent and are wiggling around out of calling it that. For > my money, creative, inventive, excellent recall all point to superior > intelligence. > > Here's an idea: restrict the chess computer to the memory level of a > great chess player - even the field. Recalling millions of games is an > unfair advantage, it seems to me. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 23:26:07 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:26:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 3:12 PM Dave Sill wrote: * > I can write a perfect tic-tac-toe playing AI, for example,* > But you can't write a program that can learn to play chess at a superhuman level starting from zero and without being taught. Nobody can do that. But humans can build neural nets, and although a human can explain how it works in very broad detail nobody can say specifically why the machine decided this move was better than that move, however it soon becomes crystal clear it was the better move and its playing Chess at a superhuman level. Incidentally this sort of thing could cause social problems in the very near future. Imagine being denied a loan because a AI, which has proven itself over and over again to be superhumanly good at this, has decided not to give you a loan because you are a bad credit risk. You look at your credit history and it looks pretty good to you and in fact it looks good to most people, so you ask the AI exactly what is it that you don't like, but just as it can't explain why it made a particular Chess move it can't explain why your loan was denied except to say "it just didn't look right to me". You would probably be frustrated by that response, and what would make it even worse is the knowledge that it's hunch is probably right, you probably wouldn't be able to repay it. *> Chess is vastly harder to play, but chess playing programs still only > play chess.* > AlphaZero can start with knowing nothing but if you just tell it what the basic rules of the game are it can teach itself in 24 hours without any human help to play 3 very different board games at a superhuman level, GO, Shogi, and Chess (Chess is the easiest of the 3). And if you want to change the rules of the games, by making the board larger for example then just give it another 24 hours so it can practice with itself and it will be superhuman at that too. And all that was last year, this year a improved version called AlphaStar played Dario Wunsch, the world's best human player of the video game Starcraft 2; AlphaStar beat the human in the competition 5 games to zero. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu May 16 23:32:02 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:32:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 2:52 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: >> *If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer >> intelligence. spike* > > > Have to query you again - no one is ever going to define any abstract > concept to the point where all people accept it, and furthermore, accept > the means by which to test it. I really don't know how to respond to your > quote above but it bothers me - seems self-contradictory. bill w > Ah ...William... Spike can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he was satirizing the anti-AI position. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu May 16 23:37:56 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:37:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019, 7:29 PM John Clark wrote: > > > Incidentally this sort of thing could cause social problems in the very > near future. Imagine being denied a loan because a AI, which has proven > itself over and over again to be superhumanly good at this, has decided not > to give you a loan because you are a bad credit risk. You look at your > credit history and it looks pretty good to you and in fact it looks good to > most people, so you ask the AI exactly what is it that you don't like, > but just as it can't explain why it made a particular Chess move it can't > explain why your loan was denied except to say "it just didn't look right > to me". You would probably be frustrated by that response, and what would > make it even worse is the knowledge that it's hunch is probably right, you > probably wouldn't be able to repay it. > John, this is a very valid concern. I work in the financial industry and can tell you there is already a lot of pushback from regulators on any type of black box AI used for these purposes. Generally, large financial firms need to be able to explain exactly why a decision was made which discourages the use of deep learning algos and incentivizes algos like a tree based approach where it's more obvious what went into a decision. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 17 00:25:03 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 17:25:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the other direction, how long will it be until it is convenient to calculate literally every position, move, et cetera - all paths a chess game can possibly take - so there is the option of reducing chess to a reference database? Not an option many would want involved in their own games, of course. But just so the option is there. On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:02 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > chess programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, > artistic and all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently > chess doesn?t require intelligence. spike > This is preposterous - Why can't what the chess computer is doing be > intelligent? Because you define that what it is doing not intelligence. > It seems really out of step when you consider that chess geniuses are > generally pretty high IQ people to start with. I think you just don't want > to call it intelligent and are wiggling around out of calling it that. For > my money, creative, inventive, excellent recall all point to superior > intelligence. > > Here's an idea: restrict the chess computer to the memory level of a > great chess player - even the field. Recalling millions of games is an > unfair advantage, it seems to me. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 00:32:56 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 17:32:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005b01d50c48$12b9e910$382dbb30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 4:32 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] stealth singularity On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 2:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: >> If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer intelligence. spike > Have to query you again - no one is ever going to define any abstract concept to the point where all people accept it, and furthermore, accept the means by which to test it. I really don't know how to respond to your quote above but it bothers me - seems self-contradictory. bill w Ah ...William... Spike can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he was satirizing the anti-AI position. John K Clark John you have been reading my nonsense for a lotta years, so you know my style. I have always treated ExI as a big frat party rather than a scientific forum. You have grown accustomed to my posting silly stuff such as how to make big profit in the event of the zombie apocalypse (?hey that?s an idea?) Now of course when I attempt snarky but subtle satire, everyone is waiting for the pie in the face joke, and they miss the derisive humor aimed at the AI community in general, with their incessant goal post moving. It has gotten so crazy they don?t even bother burying the goal posts anymore. They leave it on the truck. Soon as the other team comes into view, they crank it up and haul it out farther. In the chess world, the Goal Post Moving Company never sleeps. It was taken to such an extreme, the flat refusal to acknowledge software AI, the community would sooner admit that humans are stupid than allow that software is smart. OK then. We have such a deep-seated prejudice, that ?intelligence? must be, just HASTA be, something mysterious, unexplainable, some kind of biological magic, we collectively refuse to recognize intelligence when we see it. Well, OK what is the alternative? Here it is: we recognize that if we dig deep enough and go down all the way to the molecular level, intelligence is understandable by intelligence, that it really isn?t magic, that everything we do, everything we create, think, feel, everything any bio-computer does, can be duplicated in a software simulation running on a silicon-based processor. This position is neither claiming that machines can be intelligent or that humans are not. It is only that the one can be made to work a lot like the other, and that the terms themselves are only as meaningful as the meanings we attach to them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri May 17 00:45:20 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 20:45:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The number of possible moves in chess quickly scales after a few moves to truly ridiculous numbers so we may be waiting awhile. I've heard 10^120 bandied about which may be the high end up of estimates but even if it's somewhat less, it remains an enormous amount. GO is even worse. On Thu, May 16, 2019, 8:28 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > In the other direction, how long will it be until it is convenient to > calculate literally every position, move, et cetera - all paths a chess > game can possibly take - so there is the option of reducing chess to a > reference database? > > Not an option many would want involved in their own games, of course. But > just so the option is there. > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:02 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> chess programs got to where they were just as creative, imaginative, >> artistic and all that as the best humans, in fact? better. So? apparently >> chess doesn?t require intelligence. spike >> This is preposterous - Why can't what the chess computer is doing be >> intelligent? Because you define that what it is doing not intelligence. >> It seems really out of step when you consider that chess geniuses are >> generally pretty high IQ people to start with. I think you just don't want >> to call it intelligent and are wiggling around out of calling it that. For >> my money, creative, inventive, excellent recall all point to superior >> intelligence. >> >> Here's an idea: restrict the chess computer to the memory level of a >> great chess player - even the field. Recalling millions of games is an >> unfair advantage, it seems to me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 01:53:26 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 21:53:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:38 AM Dave Sill wrote: > > Legal immigration has been cut 80% this year. Obviously they're not just > trying to keep the bad guys out. > > ### Well, yes, they (the government) are kind of stupid. Being a libertarian, this doesn't surprise me. Do you feel that my being uncomfortable about the immigration of people who want to kill me raises doubts about my libertarian bonafides? Why? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Fri May 17 01:36:26 2019 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:36:26 +1000 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <005b01d50c48$12b9e910$382dbb30$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c48$12b9e910$382dbb30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, Yup! :-) [image: image.png] cheers colin On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:38 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark > *Sent:* Thursday, May 16, 2019 4:32 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] stealth singularity > > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 2:52 PM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > >> *If we can define exactly what is intelligence, it is no longer > intelligence. spike* > > > > > Have to query you again - no one is ever going to define any abstract > concept to the point where all people accept it, and furthermore, accept > the means by which to test it. I really don't know how to respond to your > quote above but it bothers me - seems self-contradictory. bill w > > > > Ah ...William... Spike can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he was > satirizing the anti-AI position. > > > > John K Clark > > > > John you have been reading my nonsense for a lotta years, so you know my > style. I have always treated ExI as a big frat party rather than a > scientific forum. You have grown accustomed to my posting silly stuff such > as how to make big profit in the event of the zombie apocalypse (?hey > that?s an idea?) Now of course when I attempt snarky but subtle satire, > everyone is waiting for the pie in the face joke, and they miss the > derisive humor aimed at the AI community in general, with their incessant > goal post moving. It has gotten so crazy they don?t even bother burying > the goal posts anymore. They leave it on the truck. Soon as the other > team comes into view, they crank it up and haul it out farther. > > > > In the chess world, the Goal Post Moving Company never sleeps. It was > taken to such an extreme, the flat refusal to acknowledge software AI, the > community would sooner admit that humans are stupid than allow that > software is smart. > > > > OK then. We have such a deep-seated prejudice, that ?intelligence? must > be, just HASTA be, something mysterious, unexplainable, some kind of > biological magic, we collectively refuse to recognize intelligence when we > see it. > > > > Well, OK what is the alternative? Here it is: we recognize that if we dig > deep enough and go down all the way to the molecular level, intelligence is > understandable by intelligence, that it really isn?t magic, that everything > we do, everything we create, think, feel, everything any bio-computer does, > can be duplicated in a software simulation running on a silicon-based > processor. > > > > This position is neither claiming that machines can be intelligent or that > humans are not. It is only that the one can be made to work a lot like the > other, and that the terms themselves are only as meaningful as the meanings > we attach to them. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 168867 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 02:17:05 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:17:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009d01d50c56$9f9d13d0$ded73b70$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 6:53 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:38 AM Dave Sill > wrote: Legal immigration has been cut 80% this year. Obviously they're not just trying to keep the bad guys out. ### Well, yes, they (the government) are kind of stupid. Being a libertarian, this doesn't surprise me. Do you feel that my being uncomfortable about the immigration of people who want to kill me raises doubts about my libertarian bonafides? Why? We hear John going on (and on and on) about the destitute proletariat rising up and killing us. Well, OK, not ?us? at first. They start with the super-rich, soon find the super-rich are well prepared challenge, they lose a few thousand in the futile attempt, then decide maybe they should leave the billllionehs alone and focus instead on ordinary millionehs. I don?t see why we should be importing more destitute proletariat to rise up at some future time to kill us. John? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 02:32:28 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 22:32:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] remarkable study In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:36 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > from: bill w I have never seen such attention to detail in making the > control group equal in every possible way: > > > https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/05/16/723693839/its-not-just-salt-sugar-fat-study-finds-ultra-processed-foods-drive-weight-gain > _______________________________________________ > > ### There is a hypothesis that the absence of diverse nutrients in diet drives hunger even when caloric needs are met (the empty calories hypothesis). Processed food is also high caloric density, contains palatants, often has high glycemic index. All of these issues may combine to make processed food a bad choice. The quoted study is very valuable because of the crossover design, with controlled diets rather than diet questionnaires and with metabolic surveillance. It sound like a very convincing case against processed food. I am pleased to note that my daily salad is very unprocessed in its ingredients. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 02:38:27 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 22:38:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:55 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2019, 00:51 Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM Will Steinberg >> wrote: >> >>> >>> But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't >>> fueled by suffering. >>> >>>> >> ### If Mr Bezos was eliminated, let's say by another unfortunate flying >> accident, what would be the resulting change in average human welfare - net >> negative, positive or neutral? >> > > > Question with a question. > ### You answer first. And I want the precise answer - net negative, positive, neutral, or I don't know. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 02:44:19 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 22:44:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:50 AM John Clark wrote: > > I agree with most of that except for your use of the word "home", you > obviously don't mean the few thousand square feet under your roof but the > few million square miles in the entire USA. And even that may be too small > because true hardcore libertarians think nations are phoney artificial > divisions, so if you count the entire Earth as your "home" do you have the > right to kick me off the planet (perhaps into a hypothetical afterlife) if > you don't want to be associated with me? > ### So we agree that I have the right to exclude others in my own home. Good. But then you tell me I do not have the right to exclude others at the level of the nation-state or above. OK, then tell me at which intermediate level of organization - street, neighborhood, city, county, province/state - do I lose the right of exclusion, and why. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 02:56:25 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 22:56:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 7:51 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > > John, this is a very valid concern. I work in the financial industry and > can tell you there is already a lot of pushback from regulators on any type > of black box AI used for these purposes. Generally, large financial firms > need to be able to explain exactly why a decision was made which > discourages the use of deep learning algos and incentivizes algos like a > tree based approach where it's more obvious what went into a decision. > ### I am not surprised that regulators want to reduce the predictive value of credit repayment algorithms. They are using banking regulations for social engineering and redistribution purposes and an AI that successfully grades credit applications strictly on the default risk would interfere with their political goals. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 03:48:28 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 20:48:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d50c63$641b3d20$2c51b760$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki ### ?. They are using banking regulations for social engineering and redistribution purposes and an AI that successfully grades credit applications strictly on the default risk would interfere with their political goals? Banking may be used for social engineering, but that university admissions system utilizing adversity score really has my wheels spinning, for it very well does apply to me. We have the really high-end students who take courses in SAT, who spend hundreds of hours working on techniques to improve their scores and so on. They study how to do time management, test-taking techniques, all the rest. So? it seems very logical to learn the algorithm that goes into determining the adversity score, along with techniques for optimizing it. For instance? If one can get adversity points for being from a single parent household, can the parents quietly divorce, live exactly as before (except they get to save on taxes (then the offspring can claim that they lived with parent was single (both parents are single.))) They would need to define exactly what has to happen in order to claim single parent household, and what proof is required, score! Economically disadvantaged: the only proof I can imagine would be the tax returns, the 1040s. OK then, assets could be shifted over to stuff that doesn?t earn interest, such as precious metals, score! Home equity would need to come into play somewhere here, so the parents could take out a huge mortgage on a fully paid-off home, dump the money into something that doesn?t bear dividends, get right on down there into the economically disadvantaged, score! If there are adversity points to be had, those might be easier to arrange than actually studying SAT techniques. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri May 17 04:28:14 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 00:28:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019, 22:50 Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:55 AM Will Steinberg > wrote: > >> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 00:51 Rafal Smigrodzki >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM Will Steinberg < >>> steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't >>>> fueled by suffering. >>>> >>>>> >>> ### If Mr Bezos was eliminated, let's say by another unfortunate flying >>> accident, what would be the resulting change in average human welfare - net >>> negative, positive or neutral? >>> >> > >> >> Question with a question. >> > > ### You answer first. And I want the precise answer - net negative, > positive, neutral, or I don't know. > > Rafal > I asked first though. And what do you mean by negative, positive, neutral? For whom? There is no answer. Infinite value judgments abound. But I am sure that Bezos dying would cause much less of an acute increase in the entropy of the human species than the 3.8 billion dying. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri May 17 07:23:16 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 03:23:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] dead weight In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d50b2a$b3604360$1a20ca20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:28 AM Will Steinberg wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2019, 22:50 Rafal Smigrodzki > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:55 AM Will Steinberg >> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 16, 2019, 00:51 Rafal Smigrodzki >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM Will Steinberg < >>>> steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> But it's definitely silly, too, to pretend that Bezos' riches aren't >>>>> fueled by suffering. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ### If Mr Bezos was eliminated, let's say by another unfortunate flying >>>> accident, what would be the resulting change in average human welfare - net >>>> negative, positive or neutral? >>>> >>> >> >>> >>> Question with a question. >>> >> >> ### You answer first. And I want the precise answer - net negative, >> positive, neutral, or I don't know. >> >> Rafal >> > > I asked first though. And what do you mean by negative, positive, > neutral? For whom? There is no answer. Infinite value judgments abound. > But I am sure that Bezos dying would cause much less of an acute increase > in the entropy of the human species than the 3.8 billion dying. > ### You have a strange pattern of certitudes and agnosticisms. You are absolutely sure Mr Bezos fuels his company by suffering but you can't say if we all would be better or worse off if he stopped doing what he is doing. You even deny the possibility of answering that question in the first place - "There is no anwer", "Infinite value judgments abound". And right after saying you can't possibly judge anything at all, again you are certain you want to divert the discussion to somewhere else. I find it tedious. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 17 11:46:15 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:46:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <005b01d50c0f$8f493500$addb9f00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 7:31 PM John Clark wrote: > > But you can't write a program that can learn to play chess at a superhuman > level starting from zero and without being taught. Nobody can do that. > Google did that. That's AlphaZero. AlphaZero didn't write itself, it just taught itself how to play games. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri May 17 12:12:11 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:12:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:50 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > The number of possible moves in chess quickly scales after a few moves to > truly ridiculous numbers so we may be waiting awhile. I've heard 10^120 > bandied about which may be the high end up of estimates but even if it's > somewhat less, it remains an enormous amount. > That's Shannon's Number, and it a low estimate. G.H. Hardy and Ramanujan estimated it was 10^10^50. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 17 12:26:35 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:26:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] spike and chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:50 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: *> The number of possible moves in chess quickly scales after a few moves > to truly ridiculous numbers so we may be waiting awhile. I've heard 10^120 > bandied about which may be the high end up of estimates but even if it's > somewhat less, it remains an enormous amount. GO is even worse. * > There are 10^172 possible board positions in GO, that's 10 million billion billion billion billion billion times more than Chess. There are only 10^80 atoms in the observable universe so no computer is ever going to play GO at a superhuman level by brute force calculating every possibility, it's going to need to be clever. And they are clever because today computers can play GO at a superhuman level. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 17 13:02:11 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 09:02:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:01 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: >> I agree with most of that except for your use of the word "home", you >> obviously don't mean the few thousand square feet under your roof but the >> few million square miles in the entire USA. And even that may be too small >> because true hardcore libertarians think nations are phoney artificial >> divisions, so if you count the entire Earth as your "home" do you have the >> right to kick me off the planet (perhaps into a hypothetical afterlife) if >> you don't want to be associated with me? >> > > *> ### So we agree that I have the right to exclude others in my own > home. Good. But then you tell me I do not have the right to exclude others > at the level of the nation-state or above. OK, then tell me at which > intermediate level of organization - street, neighborhood, city, county, > province/state - do I lose the right of exclusion, and why. * > Hey I asked you first! Nevermind I'll try to answer anyway. Political morality is not a precise science but if pressed I would say the area directly under your roof is much too small to be considered your "home", it should certainly include your front and back yard and you should have the right to exclude people from there for any reason you like or for no reason at all. I would also say the entire surface area of planet Earth is much too large to be considered your "home" and you don't have the right to exclude people from there. Now it's your turn, at what intermediate level of organization - street, neighborhood, city, county, province/state do you lose the right of exclusion? By the way I was surprised you were talking about the country, I thought strict libertarians didn't believe in the legitimacy of the state. I'm also curious if before Trump started making all those noises with his mouth you really thought illegal immigration was number one on the list of human existential problems that will face us in the next 25 years; I agree it's a problem but I'd put it at about number 142 on my list. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 17 13:24:56 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 15:24:56 +0200 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll erase it. Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? A: I don?t give a fuck. On 2019. May 16., Thu at 16:49, wrote: > > > > > I have long thought of the singularity as being kinda like the Spanish > Inquisition: it just shows up unexpected, as it did in Monte Python. > > > > But what if? the more gradual singularity model prevails, analogous to the > way chess programs just kept getting better and better over the years. I > watched that one grow for fifty years. It would appear to be AI from the > point of view of a 1970 chess guy, but it isn?t. > > > > MicroSloth has been experimenting with making Word subtly modify one?s > writing. It is nothing shocking: it changes the word ?man? to person or > some gender-neutral version. Policeman becomes police officer, fireman > becomes fire fighter. OK. > > > > The whole thing has my wheels spinning. I bet we extrapolate on the idea, > write software which would modify or translate a passage from politically > right to left, to prevent writers from being Twitter-banned. It would > automatically delete right wing (or left wing) memes, or switch them. That > could be a fun game. > > > > I am not sure how it would work, but I don?t think it really requires AI > to do it. The news people are going nuts over it and saying MicroSloth is > using AI, but it isn?t that, any more than good chess algorithms are AI. > They are just ?good? rather than intelligent. Two different things, often > conflated. > > > > Spike?s postulate: any algorithm we know how to write is not AI, by > definition. > > > > A real AI could come into existence, then use that algorithm to cover its > tracks. It could disguise itself as a PC-editor, merely seeking to make > one?s writing politically correct, to prevent triggering the masses. > > > > Perhaps the singularity could sneak up on us such that when it arrives, no > one would notice. Oh, we could make a cubic buttload of money off of this. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 17 13:31:45 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:31:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll erase > it. > Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? > A: I don?t give a fuck. > How would you do that anyway? bill w > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 17 13:46:37 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 15:46:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I?ll erase from my own systems, and then erase it on the cloud, or die trying. Really, that a toaster ?corrects? my speech is too much. On 2019. May 17., Fri at 15:43, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > >> If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll >> erase it. >> Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? >> A: I don?t give a fuck. >> > > How would you do that anyway? bill w > > > >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 14:35:59 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 07:35:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002401d50cbd$d8d8d960$8a8a8c20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] stealth singularity >?I?ll erase from my own systems, and then erase it on the cloud, or die trying. Really, that a toaster ?corrects? my speech is too much. It gives me an idea for a novelty device. We could make toasters that can converse in PC. It could be programmed to make some fun PC-ridiculing commentary. For instance? you put in a coupla slices, it comes back with ?Oh, so you prefer bread of color I see. Well, this can be arranged, but we need to do your bread two different ways, to promote toastial diversity!? That kinda thing. In every fiction story, the best robots are always making snidely comments. Think of K2SO from Rogue 1. We could have some fun with this, and make money at the same time. spike On 2019. May 17., Fri at 15:43, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:29 AM Giulio Prisco > wrote: If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll erase it. Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? A: I don?t give a fuck. How would you do that anyway? bill w _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 17 14:52:54 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 16:52:54 +0200 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: <002401d50cbd$d8d8d960$8a8a8c20$@rainier66.com> References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <002401d50cbd$d8d8d960$8a8a8c20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And go to jail at the same time, in today?s political climate... On 2019. May 17., Fri at 16:39, wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Giulio Prisco > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] stealth singularity > > > > > > > > >?I?ll erase from my own systems, and then erase it on the cloud, or die > trying. Really, that a toaster ?corrects? my speech is too much. > > > > It gives me an idea for a novelty device. We could make toasters that can > converse in PC. It could be programmed to make some fun PC-ridiculing > commentary. For instance? you put in a coupla slices, it comes back with > ?Oh, so you prefer bread of color I see. Well, this can be arranged, but > we need to do your bread two different ways, to promote toastial > diversity!? That kinda thing. > > > > In every fiction story, the best robots are always making snidely > comments. Think of K2SO from Rogue 1. > > > > We could have some fun with this, and make money at the same time. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > On 2019. May 17., Fri at 15:43, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:29 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll erase > it. > > Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? > > A: I don?t give a fuck. > > > > How would you do that anyway? bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 15:57:39 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:57:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] stealth singularity In-Reply-To: References: <004b01d50bf6$005e7b70$011b7250$@rainier66.com> <002401d50cbd$d8d8d960$8a8a8c20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d50cc9$41aaf3a0$c500dae0$@rainier66.com> Hey, we could make it tunable. A toaster has a slider to set how cooked one wants one?s toast. We could rig that with a slider left to right political jokes. It would make many of the same wisecracks, but would ridicule the people on the opposite end of political spectrum from wherever it is set. Giulio! We will make a fortune! (Or rather? I will (but I will say nice things about you (from my yacht.))) spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 7:53 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] stealth singularity And go to jail at the same time, in today?s political climate... On 2019. May 17., Fri at 16:39, > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] stealth singularity >?I?ll erase from my own systems, and then erase it on the cloud, or die trying. Really, that a toaster ?corrects? my speech is too much. It gives me an idea for a novelty device. We could make toasters that can converse in PC. It could be programmed to make some fun PC-ridiculing commentary. For instance? you put in a coupla slices, it comes back with ?Oh, so you prefer bread of color I see. Well, this can be arranged, but we need to do your bread two different ways, to promote toastial diversity!? That kinda thing. In every fiction story, the best robots are always making snidely comments. Think of K2SO from Rogue 1. We could have some fun with this, and make money at the same time. spike On 2019. May 17., Fri at 15:43, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 8:29 AM Giulio Prisco > wrote: If a bot wants to force me to speak PCese when I don?t want to, I?ll erase it. Q: Is ?it? PC in the sentence above? A: I don?t give a fuck. How would you do that anyway? bill w _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 17 16:43:03 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:43:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] remarkable study In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ### There is a hypothesis that the absence of diverse nutrients in diet drives hunger even when caloric needs are met (the empty calories hypothesis). Long ago I saw a study and have not seen the like since. It had toddlers as Ss, One group fed themselves from a selection of options, The other was fed by hand. The first group could choose a balanced diet or eat plums all the time (but they carefully monitored the intake and no toddler ever got so deficient in some nutrient that they had to step in and do something). The group that fed themselves never got deficient in anything and outgained the control group by a couple of pounds. It was noted that when some nutrient, say vitamin C, was being ignored by the toddlers and they needed vitamin C, they started eating something with that nutrient. Somehow they could identify what nutrient they needed and presumably developed an increased taste for the available foods that had it, and then left it when they had corrected the coming deficiency. I assume this ability got smothered by several things: first, the parents don't put out a balanced diet for them to choose from. Second, learned likes and dislikes overwhelmed that ability to choose properly. So by the time they were much older the innate/instinctual (?) abilities to eat balanced diets were lost or outvoted. bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 9:42 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 12:36 PM William Flynn Wallace < > foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> from: bill w I have never seen such attention to detail in making the >> control group equal in every possible way: >> >> >> https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/05/16/723693839/its-not-just-salt-sugar-fat-study-finds-ultra-processed-foods-drive-weight-gain >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > ### There is a hypothesis that the absence of diverse nutrients in diet > drives hunger even when caloric needs are met (the empty calories > hypothesis). Processed food is also high caloric density, contains > palatants, often has high glycemic index. All of these issues may combine > to make processed food a bad choice. The quoted study is very valuable > because of the crossover design, with controlled diets rather than diet > questionnaires and with metabolic surveillance. It sound like a very > convincing case against processed food. > > I am pleased to note that my daily salad is very unprocessed in its > ingredients. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri May 17 18:03:57 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:03:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] overcoming adversity In-Reply-To: References: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It's racism on the university's part. Spike's idea is about subverting that to the notional detriment of the racists. On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:31 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Well, make up your mind - are you talking about adversity or diversity? > Since you are descended from a minority you could claim diversity. But if > you claimed adversity then you are saying that you are hurt and held back > in some way because of the minority genes and that's racism. > > bill w > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:03 PM wrote: > >> Hey check this: >> >> >> >> https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html >> >> >> >> Since we have heard so much lately about rich people and celebrities >> cheating to get their children into biggity big schools, this adversity >> score business gives me an idea. Instead of SAT classes that will coach >> students to get higher SAT scores, we use their existing scores and coach >> them to maximize their adversity. >> >> >> >> For instance, a DNA test can probably turn up evidence of being descended >> from a minority (I have that.) If the diversity score takes into account a >> family income, one facing retirement might strategically arrange to >> postpone collection of pensions until after college admissions are complete >> for instance. >> >> >> >> If the diversity score takes into account the size of the bank account, a >> family could draw out all their money and purchase something that doesn?t >> change much and doesn?t show up on any asset list, such as platinum. If >> one is holding platinum, one damn well better not reveal it. For the risk >> takers, there is BitCoin, which also is not reportable (and have you seen >> what happened to the value of that stuff in the past month, sheesh.) >> >> >> >> We could set up a business to help people maximize adversity. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 17 19:50:47 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 12:50:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] overcoming adversity In-Reply-To: References: <006c01d50c10$df28f0f0$9d7ad2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008701d50ce9$d3687810$7a396830$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] overcoming adversity >?It's racism on the university's part. Spike's idea is about subverting that to the notional detriment of the racists. Hey thanks Adrian I never thought of that angle. {8^D It isn?t so much I want to subvert the system. I want to use it. I want to use it as a blunt instrument to bludgeon the university scholarship system into bloody submission. This all makes perfect sense: the high-achiever crowd goes to absurd lengths to get up in the thin air on the SAT. It is unconscionable to think the highest achievers could have it all taken away because their parents made too much interest income. This is particularly true when we realize one can invest in non-dividend bearing stock funds, show no interest income on the 1040 while still earning appreciation, BOOM, junior is now an overcomer of adversity, he?s in. spike On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:31 AM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: Well, make up your mind - are you talking about adversity or diversity? Since you are descended from a minority you could claim diversity. But if you claimed adversity then you are saying that you are hurt and held back in some way because of the minority genes and that's racism. bill w On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:03 PM > wrote: Hey check this: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/16/us/sat-adversity-score/index.html Since we have heard so much lately about rich people and celebrities cheating to get their children into biggity big schools, this adversity score business gives me an idea. Instead of SAT classes that will coach students to get higher SAT scores, we use their existing scores and coach them to maximize their adversity. For instance, a DNA test can probably turn up evidence of being descended from a minority (I have that.) If the diversity score takes into account a family income, one facing retirement might strategically arrange to postpone collection of pensions until after college admissions are complete for instance. If the diversity score takes into account the size of the bank account, a family could draw out all their money and purchase something that doesn?t change much and doesn?t show up on any asset list, such as platinum. If one is holding platinum, one damn well better not reveal it. For the risk takers, there is BitCoin, which also is not reportable (and have you seen what happened to the value of that stuff in the past month, sheesh.) We could set up a business to help people maximize adversity. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat May 18 00:39:48 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 17:39:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Autophagy diet side-effect: avoid alcohol on fasting days! Message-ID: <20190517173948.Horde.qW3MTBwj26FJ85rCo0JSaV7@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> This is an important update on my experimental diet. Fasting-induced-autophagy can cause gout or exacerbate existing gout. When you are in autophagy digesting your own tissues, you are in effect engaging in a purine rich diet. This effect can be worsened by alcohol use (especially beer). So despite ethanol not triggering an insulin response, it should be avoided on fasting days. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat May 18 02:07:45 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 22:07:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] remarkable study In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 12:43 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > I assume this ability got smothered by several things: first, the parents > don't put out a balanced diet for them to choose from. Second, learned > likes and dislikes overwhelmed that ability to choose properly. So by the > time they were much older the innate/instinctual (?) abilities to eat > balanced diets were lost or outvoted. > > ### Processed foods contain palatants (additives designed to increase palatability without being themselves nutritious) which interfere with our ability to select the most appropriate nutrition sources. Putting processed foods in front of a child is asking for metabolic trouble. I think I may have mentioned "The Dorito Effect" by Mark Schatzker on this list some time. This book explains some of the mechanisms why processed foods are dangerous if eaten too frequently. It's a popular but thorough analysis of the issue, without much of an ideological bent and with a lot of good scientific explanations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat May 18 18:54:41 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:54:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] How VR is helping hospice patients Message-ID: How families are giving a fantastic trip to loved ones in hospice Quote: But for those who are able to use it, their care providers say its been impactful in ways they didn't expect. McKay -- the nurse who plotted out the cruise ports for the couple who missed their trip -- said the man's wife reported that he told everyone who came to visit him about the VR experience. And when he died, she even talked about it at his service. "[He thought] he was going to end up simply being in a bed in his home waiting to die," McKay said. "Instead he found he was able to live and participate and find enjoyment each day that he was given." ---------- VR really isn't just for games where players shoot at everything that moves. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat May 18 19:24:16 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 12:24:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How VR is helping hospice patients In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007e01d50daf$48c90870$da5b1950$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK Subject: [ExI] How VR is helping hospice patients >...How families are giving a fantastic trip to loved ones in hospice https://www.cnet.com/news/how-vr-helps-families-give-a-fantastic-trip-to-lov ed-ones-in-hospice/ Thanks BillK, this makes my day. I don't even mind if I wasn't the one making a fortune. Whoever is cashing in, I wish them well...as they enjoy MY buttload... >..."[He thought] he was going to end up simply being in a bed in his home waiting to die," McKay said. "Instead he found he was able to live and participate and find enjoyment each day that he was given." ---------- Ja I have been envisioning something like this for years, or decades really. It looks to me like having that big googly-eye thing hanging on the front of one's face is the wrong answer however. Consider something like a full-cover motorcycle helmet, only much lighter. Those things have a face shield, so we could do the display on that. >...VR really isn't just for games where players shoot at everything that moves. >...BillK _______________________________________________ Well no problem BillK, we can deal. We can create software which eases the suffering of those facing eminent death while simultaneously enabling them to shoot everything that moves. What a concept! spike From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 19 07:29:07 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 03:29:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 8:52 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:15 PM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > > *### There is no level of organization at which I lose my right to >> exclude others.* >> > > So you have the right to exclude anyone you don't approve of from > inhabiting the planet Earth, your "home". > ### Yes, obviously. ------------------------------- > > >> *> **So let me ask you the question again - according to you, at which >> level of organization do I lose the right to exclude others?* >> > > Level 42. > ### Ah, yes, all this sound and fury, the moral certitude, the supercilious comments, but when I ask you a simple question about your moral rules, you refuse to answer. Since engaging you in a discussion didn't work, let me then briefly explain my reasoning to those others who might be still reading the discussion: Libertarian moral intuitions and the high-level rules we derive from them differ from collectivist intuitions primarily in denying a moral value to any specific form of social organization or existence aside from the value derived from desires of individuals. Individuals give value to collectives, not the other way round. This is why we say the only duty we have to each other is the duty to leave each other alone. That's why we uphold the freedom of association. That's why we base legal legitimacy on the notions of self-ownership, and the primacy of private property and contract. This is why we do not feel free to compel association with others by force. We do not condone theft, trespassing, extortion and collusion to commit extortion. By freedom of association we have the right to coordinate with others to protect ourselves from the above harms. We may hire constables to keep criminals from our domain, and we may do so as individuals or as a group. Of course, being smart and reasonable people, we know that coordination is difficult, and the higher the number of parties to an agreement, the higher the risk of diverse dangers, including an out-of-control enforcement system that turns against us and becomes a lethal parasite. This is why we distrust large organizations, especially ones that can use violence, propaganda and intimidation. But then on the other hand, even large organizations are not illegitimate, as long as they remain bound by the desires of individuals that consented to their formation. The libertarian opposition to the state is not a moral issue, a value judgment, but rather a pragmatic attitude that comes from knowing the state is a poor servant and a terrible master, to be feared and distrusted in most situations but not rejected outright. We also know that we, peaceful individuals, are always at risk of being attacked by groups of other people. It is a simple observation, obvious and inescapable to anybody, even children as long as they have not been exposed to modern American political propaganda. This is why we hang together, so as not to be hanged separately. We also recognize that the state we distrust relies in its decision-making on the inputs from us. We realize that if groups that are inimical to us or incapable of producing reasonable inputs threaten to take over, we are in grave danger. Jews, Armenians, Chinese immigrants and countless other groups were slaughtered by out-of-control states. Therefore it is a legitimate libertarian position to support persons, movements and organizations that can protect us against a deterioration of social decision-making. We distrust but we know that all too often the alternatives are even worse. I do not know the future. I do not know that illegal immigration is going to destroy America as we know it. I do not know if the economy will flourish insanely thanks to AI, or if it implodes in the runaway debt-and-tax spiral before the AI can save us. However, I do know that many illegal immigrants are less intelligent, more violent than the current majority of Americans, and/or are ideologically hostile towards us, based on racist, class-related, religious and nationalistic sentiments. It is not an accident that the tone and content of mainstream political discourse has been shifting towards positions that are inimical to the basic tenets of the American society - towards open class warfare, institutionalized racism, and factionalism. It is not an accident that gibbering, fanatical clowns like Ms' Occasional-Cortex and Ill-han Omar have been elected recently. It's stupid to have illegal immigration that biologically and culturally replaces our society. It goes against the libertarian principle of freedom of association. It's smart to have a legal immigration program that helps keep America great, by choosing the best people we manage to attract to become our fellow citizens. This is an expression of freedom of association. It's easy then to understand why I, a libertarian, oppose the former and cherish the latter. ---------------------------------- > > And you still haven't answered the question I've asked several times, > before Trump started talking about it did you consider illegal > immigration the great problem we need to focus on when we think about the > future? > ### And again you are trying to bring the discussion down from considering questions in moral philosophy to the level of simple politicking. As I told you, I will not engage in a political discussion with you. If Trump polemics is the only thing you can do, you have to find another partner. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun May 19 13:13:13 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 09:13:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 3:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >> So you have the right to exclude anyone you don't approve of from >> inhabiting the planet Earth, your "home". >> > > > ### Yes, obviously. > Is it just you or do I have that right too? If I don't want to associate with you in my "home" do I have the right to kick you off the planet Earth and send you into death? *>>> **So let me ask you the question again - according to you, at which >>> level of organization do I lose the right to exclude others?* >>> >> >> >> Level 42. >> > > > ### Ah, yes, all this sound and fury, the moral certitude, the > supercilious comments > I admit it, at this point I'm more interested in practical polacy questions (like what maximizes my survival chances) than I am debating which branch of libertarian theology is morally superior. As for certitude, even when dealing with questions that have unique objective answers one can be absolutely positively 100% certain about them and still be dead wrong, in fact such a thing is very common. To make it even worse you like to ask purely moral questions that have no unique objective answer and are uninterested in the practical consequences of your policies even if they are utterly disastrous. > t*he supercilious comments, but when I ask you a simple question about > your moral rules, you refuse to answer.* > I'll tell you the exact dividing line between home and not-home as soon as you tell me the exact point between 90 and 900 pounds where a thin man can gain one ounce and be instantaneously transformed into a fat man. > *we do not feel free to compel association with others by force.* > But you **do** feel free to use force to compel others not to associate with you in your "home" even if your "home" is every square inch of the only known inhabited planet in the observable universe. > > *we distrust large organizations, especially ones that can use > violence, propaganda and intimidation.* > Does that include Fox News and The National Enquirer? > > *I do not know if the economy will flourish insanely thanks to AI, or > if it implodes in the runaway debt-and-tax spiral* > I can't predict the future in any detail, but I do know if AI continues to develop, and the only thing that could stop it is if we destroy ourselves first, then it will produce astronomical amounts of wealth. I don't know how that wealth will be distributed but I do know some ways will produce great social instability and some less. > *> I do know that many illegal immigrants are less intelligent, more > violent than the current majority of Americans,* > Did you gain that knowledge from reading tea leaves or by inspecting the entrails of sacrificed animals? > *> It's stupid to have illegal immigration that biologically and > culturally replaces our society. It goes against the libertarian principle > of freedom of association. * > Take a look at this graph: Illegal immigration The problem of illegal immigration seemed well on its way to being solved but then Trump got elected, intensified the war on drugs and cut off aid to Central American countries causing social upheaval and millions of people fleeing for their lives from starvation and murderous drug cartels. * > And again you are trying to bring the discussion down from considering > questions in moral philosophy to the level of simple politicking. * > Bring the discussion down? I am trying, with little success, to get you to elevate the conversation and stop asking pointless questions in moral philosophy that can never have a unique objective answer and have all the importance of calculating the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin; I am trying to get you to help us figure out the best (or at least a better) social policy that *might* enable us to make it through the meat grinder that is the singularity. > > *As I told you, I will not engage in a political discussion with you.* > And that sort of attitude is the reason the Libertarian Party has never been able to accomplish anything constructive (I don't consider getting Trump elected to be constructive). John K Clark > If Trump polemics is the only thing you can do, you have to find another > partner. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun May 19 20:50:49 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 13:50:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really Message-ID: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:50 AM John Clark wrote: > >> >> I agree with most of that except for your use of the word "home", you >> obviously don't mean the few thousand square feet under your roof but the >> few million square miles in the entire USA. And even that may be too small >> because true hardcore libertarians think nations are phoney artificial >> divisions, so if you count the entire Earth as your "home" do you have the >> right to kick me off the planet (perhaps into a hypothetical afterlife) if >> you don't want to be associated with me? >> > > ### So we agree that I have the right to exclude others in my own home. > Good. But then you tell me I do not have the right to exclude others at the > level of the nation-state or above. OK, then tell me at which intermediate > level of organization - street, neighborhood, city, county, province/state > - do I lose the right of exclusion, and why. I say that you have the right of unilateral exclusion within your own home and your surrounding property, and your unilateral right to exclusion ends precisely where your neighbor's home and yard begins. Any greater exclusionary authority would require some manner of compact, agreement, or contract between you and your neighbors. The scope of which could be as simple as a neighborhood watch program or as complex as nationwide legislation. The reason for this is that otherwise, you are violating your neighbor's right to free association. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 19 23:31:25 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 19:31:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 4:55 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 8:50 AM John Clark wrote: > > > >> > >> I agree with most of that except for your use of the word "home", you > >> obviously don't mean the few thousand square feet under your roof but > the > >> few million square miles in the entire USA. And even that may be too > small > >> because true hardcore libertarians think nations are phoney artificial > >> divisions, so if you count the entire Earth as your "home" do you have > the > >> right to kick me off the planet (perhaps into a hypothetical afterlife) > if > >> you don't want to be associated with me? > >> > > > > ### So we agree that I have the right to exclude others in my own home. > > Good. But then you tell me I do not have the right to exclude others at > the > > level of the nation-state or above. OK, then tell me at which > intermediate > > level of organization - street, neighborhood, city, county, > province/state > > - do I lose the right of exclusion, and why. > > I say that you have the right of unilateral exclusion within your own > home and your surrounding property, and your unilateral right to > exclusion ends precisely where your neighbor's home and yard begins. > Any greater exclusionary authority would require some manner of > compact, agreement, or contract between you and your neighbors. The > scope of which could be as simple as a neighborhood watch program or > as complex as nationwide legislation. The reason for this is that > otherwise, you are violating your neighbor's right to free association. > > ### Well, yes, obviously. A national immigration law is an agreement between many people. Assuming you accept the legitimacy of the legislature, is such immigration law, and my support for it, legitimate? Is it then wrong for US citizens to break that law by aiding and abetting illegal immigration? John Clark seems to think immigration law is illegitimate, AFAIK (hard to get clear statements out of him). What's your opinion? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun May 19 23:58:39 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 19:58:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 9:13 AM John Clark wrote: > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 3:34 AM Rafal Smigrodzki < > rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com> wrote: > > >> So you have the right to exclude anyone you don't approve of from >>> inhabiting the planet Earth, your "home". >>> >> >> > ### Yes, obviously. >> > > Is it just you or do I have that right too? If I don't want to associate > with you in my "home" do I have the right to kick you off the planet Earth > and send you into death? > ### Every time the police lock somebody up on your behalf, they deprive him of self-ownership, they exclude him from his own property. The army kills people on your behalf. If you approve and materially support either activity, you are using your right to exclude others from living independently on this planet. For me it's obvious I have the right to cooperate with others to exclude our enemies from this planet and the whole universe, as much as physics and technology allow. ---------------------- > > >> *> I do know that many illegal immigrants are less intelligent, more >> violent than the current majority of Americans,* >> > > Did you gain that knowledge from reading tea leaves or by inspecting the > entrails of sacrificed animals? > ### From peer-reviewed and universally accepted research. ------------------------- > I am trying, with little success, to get you to elevate the conversation > and stop asking pointless questions in moral philosophy that can never have > a unique objective answer and have all the importance of calculating the > number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin; I am trying to get > you to help us figure out the best (or at least a better) social policy > that *might* enable us to make it through the meat grinder that is the > singularity. > ### We are not politicians. Our actual influence on politics is very nearly zero. I do not vote by choice, and even if you do, it's a tiny effect, if any. We are jokers on an obscure mailing list. It's entertainment, not real life. I find it intellectually stimulating and pleasant to organize my thoughts, as in constructing a chain of inference connecting my basic moral intuitions to their lower-level, more narrow interpretation. It doesn't matter if you or I come up with a brilliant idea that would solve our society's problems - nobody will listen to you or I. That's why it's best to take it easy. Shit's gonna happen no matter what. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon May 20 01:34:02 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 20:34:02 -0500 Subject: [ExI] book Message-ID: There is a new book by Cixin Liu, who wrote the trilogy about the three-body problem that I read and recommended to the group and which John read and enjoyed. Ball Lightening bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon May 20 03:30:39 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 20:30:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <1674012631.2378972.1558319412660@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1674012631.2378972.1558319412660@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190519203039.Horde.f3KAfREkCJD3pww7rNagWjv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > I say that you have the right of unilateral exclusion within your own? > home and your surrounding property, and your unilateral right to? > exclusion ends precisely where your neighbor's home and yard begins.? > Any greater exclusionary authority would require some manner of? > compact, agreement, or contract between you and your neighbors. The? > scope of which could be as simple as a neighborhood watch program or? > as complex as nationwide legislation.? The reason for this is that? > otherwise, you are violating your neighbor's right to free association. > > > ### Well, yes, obviously. A national immigration law is an agreement > between many people. Assuming you accept the legitimacy of the > legislature, is such immigration law, and my support for it, > legitimate? Is it then wrong for US citizens to break that law by > aiding and abetting illegal immigration?? John Clark seems to think > immigration law is illegitimate, AFAIK (hard to get clear statements > out of him). What's your opinion? If such law is passed by both houses, signed by the POTUS, and does not conflict with the Constitution, then it is the rightful law of the land. My opinion doesn't have much bearing on that. I will mention however that citizenship is a tricky issue with regard to multicultural republics. Rome for example fought a war with its Italian neighbors over citizenship called the Social War. Then Roman citizenship became a bone of contention and a political tool for the better part of a thousand years before finally becoming one of the nails in Rome's coffin. So it is not an issue to be taken lightly. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Mon May 20 05:55:52 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 07:55:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very nice one! I love everything by Cixin Liu so far. Netflix has a film adaptation of Wandering Earth, but as usual the film is not as good as the novel. On 2019. May 20., Mon at 3:37, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > There is a new book by Cixin Liu, who wrote the trilogy about the > three-body problem that I read and recommended to the group and which John > read and enjoyed. > > Ball Lightening > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Mon May 20 07:01:39 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 03:01:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: <20190519203039.Horde.f3KAfREkCJD3pww7rNagWjv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1674012631.2378972.1558319412660@mail.yahoo.com> <20190519203039.Horde.f3KAfREkCJD3pww7rNagWjv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 PM Stuart LaForge wrote: > > If such law is passed by both houses, signed by the POTUS, and does > not conflict with the Constitution, then it is the rightful law of the > land. My opinion doesn't have much bearing on that. I will mention > however that citizenship is a tricky issue with regard to > multicultural republics. Rome for example fought a war with its > Italian neighbors over citizenship called the Social War. Then Roman > citizenship became a bone of contention and a political tool for the > better part of a thousand years before finally becoming one of the > nails in Rome's coffin. So it is not an issue to be taken lightly. > > ### I absolutely agree, the issue of citizenship is not to be taken lightly, for even in the twilight of humanity as we know it, up until the singularity, demography is still destiny. This said, I am actually mildly optimistic that the immigration issue will not bring our country down. Superhuman AI will be here in less than twenty years, maybe even in 10 years, and an immigration-driven demographic transition towards chaos would probably still take decades. Stupid immigration will cause trouble, including severe harms to millions of people caught in the crossfire, but it won't derail the train. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 20 13:09:37 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 09:09:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 8:03 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > ### Every time the police lock somebody up on your behalf, they deprive > him of self-ownership, > Yes, that's why I get angry when a president tries to do that with his election opponent (LOCK HER UP!) and claims, falsely, that he is doing that on my behalf. I did *NOT* ask him to do that. > > *I have the right to cooperate with others to exclude our enemies from > this planet and the whole universe, as much as physics and technology > allow.* > Do I have a right to say your methodology for determining who is a enemy is not coherent? I'm also very confused about this entire left-wing right-wing business and how it fits in with libertarian philosophy. How is being pro-tariff libertarian and being pro free trade anti-libertarian? How is allowing women to have control of their bodies anti-libertarian and putting women in prison for having a abortion libertarian? How is a president wanting to sue a newspaper for libel libertarian but being a absolutist on the first amendment anti-libertarian? *> >> I do know that many illegal immigrants are less intelligent, more >>> violent than the current majority of Americans,* >>> >> >> >> Did you gain that knowledge from reading tea leaves or by >> inspecting the entrails of sacrificed animals? >> > > > ### From peer-reviewed and universally accepted research. > Please point me to the peer-reviewed and universally accepted research that shows that the immigrants the Great Wall Of Mexico is supposed to keep out have a higher crime rate than native born American citizens . *> **### We are not politicians. Our actual influence on politics is very > nearly zero. I do not vote by choice, and even if you do, it's a tiny > effect, if any. We are jokers on an obscure mailing list. [...] it doesn't > matter if you or I come up with a brilliant idea that would solve our > society's problems - nobody will listen to you or I.* > Wow, that sounds like a speech out of a Ingmar Bergman movie from the 1960's highlighting the despair and pointlessness of life, or perhaps it's closer to how Woody Allen satirized it: *"To love is to suffer. To avoid suffering one must not love. But then one suffers from not loving. Therefore, to love is to suffer; not to love is to suffer; to suffer is to suffer. To be happy is to love. To be happy, then, is to suffer, but suffering makes one unhappy. Therefore, to be unhappy, one must love or love to suffer or suffer from too much happiness. I hope you're getting this down."* *> That's why it's best to take it easy. Shit's gonna happen no matter > what.* > I've got to say from the tone of your posts you sure don't sound like you're taking it easy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon May 20 14:58:05 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:58:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Just some thoughts, nothing new really In-Reply-To: References: <20190519135049.Horde.-iDq7JTZ4KsimyRb8qnucbv@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 7:36 PM Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > *John Clark seems to think immigration law is illegitimate, * No, John Clark just thinks stupid immigration law is... well... stupid. For example, science departments all over the country are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit Phd students from countries like China Iran and India. And Quantum Computer expert Saeed Mehraban is terrified he's going to be kicked out of the country because he can't get his visa renewed for no reason except that this administration doesn't like the country he happened to be born in. I think that's stupid, I think the USA needs all the brains it can get. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 22 16:01:12 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:01:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] rims bear fruit Message-ID: <006301d510b7$94f19ea0$bed4dbe0$@rainier66.com> Topic not entirely suitable for ExI, but perhaps entertaining for those who are entertained by this sort of thing. About 20 yrs ago, I planted two orange trees in the back corners of my yard. California grove-man's trick: intentionally go light fertilizer and light water at first, to encourage the roots to go down rather than out. A coupla years after those were planted, with just enough water and fertilizer to keep them alive, a neighbor replaced the rims on an old car. I showed him how to refurbish ratty old rims, but he thought it was a lot of work, so he offered me the rims. I put them in back out of sight under one tree, (fence on two sides, lots of leaves and branches obscuring the remaining view.) I forgot about them (outta sight, outta mind.) Several years went by, the trees started bearing, I increased the fertilizer to get more fruit. Over time I noticed one of the trees seems look more healthy than the other: no indication of iron deficiency in the tree where those ratty old rims are stacked. I went back there yesterday and noticed those rims are completely rusted, way beyond practical refurbishment by now. Then it occurred to me: the rust from the rims might be supplying iron to the one tree. Car parts do rust away, and the iron hasta go somewhere. The only where available is straight down. Those old rims have been under there for about 18 years. It would be easy enough to estimate the iron needs of a citrus tree, but I have no good way to estimate how fast an iron rim loses mass to the soil. Perhaps I will move some or all the rims to the other tree. Any ideas? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 22 16:10:59 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:10:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] rims bear fruit In-Reply-To: <006301d510b7$94f19ea0$bed4dbe0$@rainier66.com> References: <006301d510b7$94f19ea0$bed4dbe0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Get your soil tested by your local extension service and ask if they test for iron. There are supplements on the market that contain iron and other metals for plants, such as boron. Should be less than $20 for a soil test. They will also advise for fertilizer additions, etc. to the group - I am a master gardener and will take any questions on plants re jokes: I hope you did not think that I approved of the ones I sent. I do not and I did not when they were told to me. bill w On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:04 AM wrote: > > > Topic not entirely suitable for ExI, but perhaps entertaining for those > who are entertained by this sort of thing. > > > > About 20 yrs ago, I planted two orange trees in the back corners of my > yard. California grove-man?s trick: intentionally go light fertilizer and > light water at first, to encourage the roots to go down rather than out. > > > > A coupla years after those were planted, with just enough water and > fertilizer to keep them alive, a neighbor replaced the rims on an old car. > I showed him how to refurbish ratty old rims, but he thought it was a lot > of work, so he offered me the rims. I put them in back out of sight under > one tree, (fence on two sides, lots of leaves and branches obscuring the > remaining view.) I forgot about them (outta sight, outta mind.) > > > > Several years went by, the trees started bearing, I increased the > fertilizer to get more fruit. Over time I noticed one of the trees seems > look more healthy than the other: no indication of iron deficiency in the > tree where those ratty old rims are stacked. I went back there yesterday > and noticed those rims are completely rusted, way beyond practical > refurbishment by now. Then it occurred to me: the rust from the rims might > be supplying iron to the one tree. Car parts do rust away, and the iron > hasta go somewhere. The only where available is straight down. > > > > Those old rims have been under there for about 18 years. It would be easy > enough to estimate the iron needs of a citrus tree, but I have no good way > to estimate how fast an iron rim loses mass to the soil. Perhaps I will > move some or all the rims to the other tree. Any ideas? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidmc at gmail.com Thu May 23 11:49:47 2019 From: davidmc at gmail.com (David McFadzean) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:49:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Agoric reboot Message-ID: I was delighted to see that Mark Miller and E. Dean Tribble are getting the band back together >> https://agoric.com/introduction/ Congrats to Chris Hibbert for joining the team! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From edward at haigh.io Thu May 23 12:05:44 2019 From: edward at haigh.io (Edward Haigh) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 13:05:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Agoric reboot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark is also trending on Hacker News right now, or at least E is. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19981720 -Edd On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 12:51 PM David McFadzean wrote: > I was delighted to see that Mark Miller and E. Dean Tribble are getting > the band back together >> https://agoric.com/introduction/ > > Congrats to Chris Hibbert for joining the team! > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 23 14:23:50 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:23:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hey cool ford bot Message-ID: <003e01d51173$251e9490$6f5bbdb0$@rainier66.com> I thought this might be a hoax, but Mashable is pretty reliable: https://mashable.com/video/ford-agility-robotics-digit-delivery-robot/ I want one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu May 23 14:34:27 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:34:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] hey cool ford bot In-Reply-To: <003e01d51173$251e9490$6f5bbdb0$@rainier66.com> References: <003e01d51173$251e9490$6f5bbdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Looks rendered to me. -Dave On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:27 AM wrote: > I thought this might be a hoax, but Mashable is pretty reliable: > > > > https://mashable.com/video/ford-agility-robotics-digit-delivery-robot/ > > > > I want one. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 23 14:43:35 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 07:43:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hey cool ford bot In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d51173$251e9490$6f5bbdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d51175$e6ea53a0$b4befae0$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] hey cool ford bot Looks rendered to me. -Dave Eh, I was wondering about that. If Ford is fooling around with this, then they aren?t working on my next pickup truck. Do we have any CGI hipsters who can determine if it is phony? Ford coulda done something like this as advertisement. Or they coulda bought a Boston Dynamics bot and put there name on it, analogous to how those NASCAR racers have advertisements all over them. The ad doesn?t actually say in there that Ford build this thing. Another idea: they created the video with stop-motion animation like Shaun the Sheep. spike On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:27 AM > wrote: I thought this might be a hoax, but Mashable is pretty reliable: https://mashable.com/video/ford-agility-robotics-digit-delivery-robot/ I want one. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 23 15:36:44 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:36:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] great Message-ID: Cialis went from $60 a pill to $3 a pill. Is this a great country, or what? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 23 16:08:00 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:08:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] great In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d51181$b27a23a0$176e6ae0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 8:37 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] great Cialis went from $60 a pill to $3 a pill. Is this a great country, or what? bill w Cool! A couple yrs ago, I did a cost breakdown, figured out how much it cost per pill for what dose, recognize that it was cheaper (by far) to buy the big bazookas. Then I bought one of those nifty milligram scales: https://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-GEMINI-20-Portable-MilliGram/dp/B0012TDNAM?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1 For 17 bucks! Back in the bad old days (1990s) I bought a milligram scale for a lab at work. To meet the specifications without using an analytic balance (it had to be mobile and fairly robust) we had to go with electromagnetic force compensation. We paid 4300 bucks for it (owwww) and it was a pain in the ass to calibrate. Now? this one I bought a year ago for 17 bucks meets the same spec as the one for 4300, and it seems to hold a calibration (according to these calibrated masses.) OK then. Life is good. Now I could buy the big bazookas (my doctor is so nice to me, she never question why I need such things, just wrote out the prescription.) After experimentation I discovered that about a fifth (or even less) of one of those biggies is more than adequate (I am lucky that way) but the pills are resistant to cutting by design. So? I finally get to put all that college analytic chemistry knowledge to use (after all this time and wasted tuition) discovered a way to divide the delightful but expensive recreational drug into adequate dosage, and up we go, life is gooooood. Now the patent has expired, the pills are cheap, all those brains, wasted. Just tragically wasted. Now any dumb non-geek can just devour the big bazookas and no worries about the cost. I will probably now be a dumb non-geek and use those now. Sigh. My beleaguered bride shall find no refuge from her persistent mate?s savage pursuit, in an endless quest to slake his insatiable desires. But there might be a downside to that somewhere. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 23 16:26:30 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:26:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] great In-Reply-To: <001f01d51181$b27a23a0$176e6ae0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d51181$b27a23a0$176e6ae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004301d51184$477bf940$d673ebc0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 9:08 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] great From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 8:37 AM To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] great >>>?Cialis went from $60 a pill to $3 a pill. Is this a great country, or what? bill w >>?Cool! ?Now the patent has expired, the pills are cheap, all those brains, wasted. Just tragically wasted? spike >?But spike, what about? No worries, I discovered a baggy fashion that is very forgiving in that situation, and has as a bonus lotsa pockets for carrying phones and tab computers and things. It?s really cool: you can use my favorite recreational drug, wear that, escape detection. I went to Walmart yesterday looking for those weird people: http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/ I was so disappointed, couldn?t find them. I was just thinking reporting the place to the BBB for misleading advertisement, when I heard someone say ?Look ma, there?s one!? I turned and saw a hillbilly family pointing at me and taking pictures. I went down there looking for weird people and they give me me. You know they are using that as a gimmick to draw in customers. If you see an annoyed-looking dumb non-geek on peopleofwalmart, that?s me, pondering a lawsuit for false advertising. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu May 23 17:06:02 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:06:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] hey cool ford bot In-Reply-To: References: <003e01d51173$251e9490$6f5bbdb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Nah. Staged as all heck, probably with multiple takes, but not rendered. On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 7:37 AM Dave Sill wrote: > Looks rendered to me. > > -Dave > > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 10:27 AM wrote: > >> I thought this might be a hoax, but Mashable is pretty reliable: >> >> >> >> https://mashable.com/video/ford-agility-robotics-digit-delivery-robot/ >> >> >> >> I want one. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 24 03:43:28 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 20:43:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] lczero pulls ahead Message-ID: <000a01d511e2$d9e93c80$8dbbb580$@rainier66.com> In the computer chess world, Stockfish has dominated for a long time, but this learning program LCZero pulled up even with it. Last year they had a match where they were right together for the 100 game slug-athon. Stockfish edged it out 50.5 to 49.5. Stockfish isn't getting better, but LCZero is, since it is a learning program. Now they are on another playoff, same two programs made it to the top. Now it is LCZero 40 Stockfish 35. It's getting harder to claim that this software is not doing something very closely simulating learning and narrow intelligence. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 24 22:34:13 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 15:34:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified information. By extension, anyone who posts stuff to any public venue, such as this one, could be charged in the USA of publishing classified information if we find out (perhaps after the fact) the nature of the information. So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. This is a bad thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 24 23:09:47 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 18:09:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. spike Has that been adjudicated? Or do you think that case will decide that? After all, if burning a flag can be looked upon as free speech, surely internet stuff is the press. We need to re-write our Constitution, esp. about privacy. bill w On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 5:37 PM wrote: > > > Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified > information. By extension, anyone who posts stuff to any public venue, > such as this one, could be charged in the USA of publishing classified > information if we find out (perhaps after the fact) the nature of the > information. > > > > So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it > requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. > This is a bad thing. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 24 23:38:29 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 16:38:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004c01d51289$cad00e70$60702b50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 4:10 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] are we publishing? So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. spike Has that been adjudicated? Or do you think that case will decide that? After all, if burning a flag can be looked upon as free speech, surely internet stuff is the press. We need to re-write our Constitution, esp. about privacy. bill w It hasn?t been adjudicated, but it surprises me they would even bring the charge. I see little difference between Assange publishing the Manning documents and the New York Times and Washington Post publishing the Pentagon Papers in 1971. Oh wait, the Washington Post had an actual literal ?press? where they printed on paper. That?s different. Ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat May 25 06:40:05 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 23:40:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 3:37 PM wrote: > Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified > information. By extension, anyone who posts stuff to any public venue, > such as this one, could be charged in the USA of publishing classified > information if we find out (perhaps after the fact) the nature of the > information. > Only if the info was classified at the time. > So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it > requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. > This is a bad thing. > Posting things publicly to the Internet has long been recognized as a form of publishing. So, yes, posting to this list - so long as this list has a public archive well known to its members (such as by being listed in the signature) - legally counts as "publishing". It would not be a good idea to post classified information to this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 25 12:28:07 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 08:28:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <004c01d51289$cad00e70$60702b50$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> <004c01d51289$cad00e70$60702b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 7:41 PM wrote: > >> So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it >> requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. >> spike > > > > *> Has that been adjudicated? Or do you think that case will decide > that? After all, if burning a flag can be looked upon as free speech, > surely internet stuff is the press. * > *The burning flag decision was made before a fascist president appointed 2 strict constructionists judges to the Supreme Court who think the important thing is the original intent of the people who wrote it, and it must be admitted that 250 years ago the original framers of the constitution knew surprisingly little about packet switching and TCP/IP stacks. So when they said you have freedom of "the press" they meant you had the freedom to *press* lead type soaked in ink against dried wood pulp, and that is all they meant.* > *> We need to re-write our Constitution, esp. about privacy. bill w* > *That won't help. The Constitution is just paper and has no superpowers, regardless of what it says it's only as good as the people around it. And it will always need to be interpreted when specific cases come up. Godel has proven you're never going to have a set of laws that are completely free of logical contradictions and will also cover every possible dispute that can come up in real life. So we're never going to get perfect justice all the time, but it's not too much to expect pretty good justice most of the time. But ever since 2016 I've feared we will get far far less than that because the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says it means even if the interpreters of it were picked by a semi-illiterate fascist.* * John K Clark* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat May 25 13:09:59 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 09:09:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <004c01d51289$cad00e70$60702b50$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> <004c01d51289$cad00e70$60702b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 7:41 PM wrote: > *> I see little difference between Assange publishing the Manning > documents and the New York Times and Washington Post publishing the > Pentagon Papers in 1971.* > One could argue the two actions display different degrees of wisdom but as far as rights are concerned I agree with you, there is no difference. In related news from the wonderful world of fascism Germany is pushing for a law that would require every cryptographic program in the country to have a backdoor in it that the government can use whenever it wants to know what you're up to. Australia has done the same thing; when it was pointed out to Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull that the laws of mathematics tell us that it is impossible to have a cryptographic system strong enough to keep the bad guys out but weak enough to let the government in replied: *"**Well the laws of Australia prevail in Australia, I can assure you of that. The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia."* As for the current hillbilly president of the USA, he's been trying to do the same thing for years: "Strong" encryption that government can break at will John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 26 20:28:43 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 15:28:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] control - a few thoughts Message-ID: One of the most tragic and frightening things about schizophrenia is the loss of control. The person experiences delusions, which he often knows are false, and hallucinations which, again, he may know at some level are not real. The intrusions of these into consciousness is totally out of the control of the person and they can be very frightening. Think also of minor mental disorders: anxiety neurosis, depression (which can be major), obsessiveness and compulsions. All of these feature loss of control to some degree with attempts, sometimes by any means, to regain control or to escape to a mindless state. Some addictions do the same. Medical conditions such strokes, palsy, loss of limbs and many others, generate pity in all of us. All forms of dementia are progressive losses of control, and feared by all of us. We see lists of human needs. You may remember from a college course the one devised by Maslow. He constructed a hierarchy consisting of physiological needs at the bottom and self-actualization at the top. Where is control? Only control enables a person to move to more abstract needs. I think that in some ways it is the most basic need. When control is largely removed, such as in imprisonment, the person acts quickly to establish some control over their lives, which could be established by getting drugs smuggled in, joining a gang to avoid physical attack, and so on. In social psychology we have a concept called locus of control. If it is internal, it means the person feels that they are generally in control of their own lives. If it is external, the person feels that powerful others, such as parents and bosses, rule over their lives. Medical conditions, such as those above, do the same. These latter people feel helpless to do anything about it. They feel powerless - no way to gain control except perhaps to leave the relationship - run away from home; quit the job; get a divorce. In the medical field the person leaves all decisions to the physicians. If inner-controlled the person takes over his therapy, diagnosis, etc. through internet research, for one. The more we move up in an organization, the more control we have, such as over the behavior of those under us. Slavery is an awful state in which control is largely absent - no ability to choose food, travel, housing, even one's mate, and all the rest. Libertarians value freedom, and mainly that means free from being controlled. Laws, rules for children, constitutions for countries, and many more attempt to control our behavior. Is there a more libertarian concept than control and freedom from it? Well, you may say - so what - that's the world for you - the strong survive, the weak are dependent on others to survive. Control is the very basis of power -practically synonymous. But not everyone attempts to gain power and control. Perhaps their self-image is at fault; or negative feedback from others. Thus they attempt to attach themselves to power by being willing helpers and workers, perhaps joining various groups which try to gain power, such as the prison gangs above. They worship what they do not have (plenty of room here for a big discussion of the role of religion). Just a few thoughts. Perhaps the above is too obvious, and more nuanced and subtle examples are needed. Comments, criticism welcome. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun May 26 20:36:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 15:36:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the dorito effect Message-ID: The above book, mentioned in passing by Rafal, is a superior read if you are interested in nutrition and food, and what has happened to the nutrition in our food as a result of big business. Food additives get a lot of ink - all for flavor. Business doesn't want to improve our health. They want us to buy their products and will do anything towards that end. And no, you cannot find out what 'natural flavorings' includes - companies you have never heard of producing chemicals that never existed before. Did you even wonder what pork belly tasted like sliced straight from the pig and not processed in any way? I can tell you this - it doesn't taste at all like bacon. And you can't make it because you don't have the chemicals to add to it. Additives in steak? Read the book, now very cheap at Abebooks. This is exactly the kind of book I want recommended to me: lots of science at the layman's level with some implications for everyday living. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 26 21:22:30 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 14:22:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] control - a few thoughts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003401d51409$2116c820$63445860$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] control - a few thoughts >?One of the most tragic and frightening things about schizophrenia is the loss of control. The person experiences delusions, which he often knows are false, and hallucinations which, again, he may know at some level are not real?bill w BillW, being as you are the guy here (only guy here) with formal training in that field and expertise on that topic, I would value your commentary on the excellent movie A Beautiful Mind. This one is of particular interest to me, for I am 4th cousin to John Forbes Nash, two different ways. (Thanks Ancestry.com.) I still have (distant) family in the Bluefield WV area. We have identified where Nash?s house was. I hope to go there and fall prostrate before that house which is still there, that sacred shrine, grovel and beg forgiveness of Evolution because my own distant cousin was so brilliant but I suck. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun May 26 21:35:23 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 14:35:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] control - a few thoughts In-Reply-To: <003401d51409$2116c820$63445860$@rainier66.com> References: <003401d51409$2116c820$63445860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501d5140a$ed317e90$c7947bb0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2019 2:23 PM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] control - a few thoughts From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] control - a few thoughts >? This is exactly the kind of book I want recommended to me: lots of science at the layman's level with some implications for everyday living. bill w Guys lets all pitch in and do it. Otherwise he will go off and read books about? cod. A mind is a terrible thing to waste Bill. >>?One of the most tragic and frightening things about schizophrenia is the loss of control. ?bill w >?I still have (distant) family in the Bluefield WV area. We have identified where Nash?s house was. I hope to go there and fall prostrate before that house which is still there?. Spike BillW, what I hope to learn from your commentary on Beautiful Mind is related to psychology, which (as I understand it) is based on the notion that a suffering mind can learn what is causing itself to suffer and heal itself from within. This interests me, for I have a friend who suffers terribly from regular bouts with depression. He is a really smart guy however (PhD from Stanford in physics) and eventually worked out how to deal with it. That is an example of a mind healing itself (or at least treating itself) from within. In the movie version of Beautiful Mind, Nash figured out his hallucinations were not real because they did not age. The book was a (mercifully) fictionalized version of his life, so I do not know if the real JF Nash really overcame schizophrenia by realizing they weren?t aging along with everyone else. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 03:14:59 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 20:14:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] candidates will say things they never said Message-ID: <001801d51503$88d73cb0$9a85b610$@rainier66.com> Is this crazy cool or what? https://www.sciencealert.com/samsung-s-ai-can-now-generate-talking-heads-fro m-a-single-image I predict the coming US election will be the one where this effect is biggest. After this next one, people will be onto the whole notion of startling video of candidate saying something outrageous. But for one election, probably the one upcoming, everyone won't know about it yet. Last time it was the Russians dunnit. This time it will be the computer geeks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue May 28 06:13:19 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 08:13:19 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Book review & interview: Transhumanism, by Roberto Manzocco Message-ID: Book review & interview: Transhumanism, by Roberto Manzocco The book ?Transhumanism: Engineering the Human Condition? (2019), by Roberto Manzocco, is a solid and comprehensive outline of transhumanist thought, including its more visionary aspects. https://turingchurch.net/book-review-interview-transhumanism-by-roberto-manzocco-3712f9be5b9c From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue May 28 15:14:05 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 08:14:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:24 PM Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified > information. No mention that Julian was a very early member of this list? He is, without a doubt, the most famous Extropian. So far anyway. I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the scale that elected Trump. But I am slightly surprised that the US can charge someone who is not a citizen with publishing classified information. It feels like charging someone in another country with treason, i.e., not logical. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 28 15:55:44 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 11:55:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 11:18 AM Keith Henson wrote: > > > *No mention that Julian was a very early member of this list? He is, > without a doubt, the most famous Extropian. * He is unless Hal Finney or Nick Sabo turn out to be Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto. * > I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the scale > that elected Trump. * Publishing what he did was astronomically irresponsible but nobody should go to jail for publishing something. If the rape charges made against him are true then he should go to jail for that however I have no idea if they are true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 16:24:25 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:24:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d51571$d1207270$73615750$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 8:14 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:24 PM >... Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified information. >...No mention that Julian was a very early member of this list? He is, without a doubt, the most famous Extropian. So far anyway... Keith Ja Keith as I recall, you were one of those on the group we had, an offline ExI subgroup of about a dozen guys, Eugen Leitl started it as I recall. Julian was in that, Hal Finney, the libertarian firebrand whose name I cannot recall. Julian was an interesting character, kinda one-dimensional in his way. Always going on about the importance of openness, nobody has any inherent right to privacy etc. If I understand it correctly, Julian's position was that if you can figure out how to secure your own privacy, good for you. But the government is not obligated to give you privacy. Our local hardcore Libertarian disagreed, in what looked like a self-contradictory line of reasoning. >...It feels like charging someone in another country with treason, i.e., not logical. _______________________________________________ Ja, isn't that crazy? I am guessing that charge isn't going anywhere. Fun aside: Julian was charged with rape in Sweden. We USians have a picture in our minds what constitutes rape. In Sweden, if a man tells his partner he is going to use protection then doesn't, that is considered rape. It isn't that way in the US. But did you hear that was the charge against him? Neither did I until a couple weeks ago. I went years thinking Julian was a rapist. I just don't see failure to use a condom or deception in foreplay as equivalent to rape. In my mind, we have already established that lying with regard to sex isn't even really lying, it's... emmmm... you know... it's what... we humans do when we are trying to coax a mate. Honest people can lie in that particular area and still be considered honest. Do we have any Swedish here who can comment or enlighten us? Are things really that different there? Regarding privacy, I tend to see Julian's POV: if one has secrets they failed to secure and someone else publishes it on the internet, I don't see a crime there. The US government has a 4th amendment, but that only restricts what the government may do to invade citizens' privacy. It applies only to Big Brother. It does not guarantee Big Brother can or will somehow provide privacy from millions of snoopy Little Brothers. Julian published a bunch of stuff stolen by Corporal Manning, which was classified up the kazoo. But the way he really pissed off masses of people is in publishing stuff that was not classified at all. The biggest deal was obtained by guessing a password (the victim's password was Password.) Sheesh. Regarding the publishing of classified info, Corporal Manning damn sure did commit a crime, a very serious one. Yet Corporal Manning has already been freed, after serving a short sentence. It is illogical to charge a foreign national for doing something a tiny fraction as serious as what Manning did. Ja? I never retained copies of that subgroup discussion from about 1996 or so. Too bad for us: that would be some fascinating material today. Oh I just remembered: Mike Lorrey, that was our hardcore Libertarian's name. Mike Lorrey. I heard from him about 4 or 5 yrs ago. He was doing well as I recall. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 16:35:00 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:35:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001f01d51573$4b966ef0$e2c34cd0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark >?If the rape charges made against him are true then he should go to jail for that however I have no idea if they are true. John K Clark John, the rape charges are true but Swedish. True but Swedish means he committed Swedish rape (deceptive? eh? courtship, in the form of telling his partner he was going to use a condom, but didn?t.) England held him for skipping bail on a charge of rape in Sweden. But Swedish rape is not a crime in England (as far as I know) and skipping bail in England is seldom prosecuted, particularly when the crime on which he was being held isn?t illegal. So? the US wants him extradited here to face charges of? what? Treason? Against Australia? Sooo? why does the US want to bring him here? Not to face charges of skipping bail in England over Swedish rape, when Sweden has long since dropped the original charges. Not to face charges for publishing the contents of the DNC server, since none of that is classified information. Not really even to face charges for publishing actual classified information, since he didn?t actually steal that, and the person who did has already been released. So the US is requesting extradition from relative safety based on skipping bail in a foreign country with regard to a crime unique to a third country (but which is not specifically illegal here) to face charges of treason (which does not even apply to a foreign national) in a nation where a former Secretary of State and possible future presidential candidate has threatened to murder him in the presence of plenty of witnesses. Sheesh is this a weird case or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue May 28 16:42:00 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:42:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <001f01d51573$4b966ef0$e2c34cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d51573$4b966ef0$e2c34cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:36 PM wrote: > > > > > So? the US wants him extradited here to face charges of? what? Treason? > Against Australia? Sooo? why does the US want to bring him here? Not to > face charges of skipping bail in England over Swedish rape, when Sweden has > long since dropped the original charges. Not to face charges for > publishing the contents of the DNC server, since none of that is classified > information. Not really even to face charges for publishing actual > classified information, since he didn?t actually steal that, and the person > who did has already been released. > > > > > > spike > > > > > Spike- While I don't agree with it, the US is charging him under conspiracy to commit computer intrusion: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1153486/download -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 16:51:21 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:51:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501d51575$942669c0$bc733d40$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson >...I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the scale that elected Trump. ...Keith _______________________________________________ Keith, do you recall the comments Julian used to make? As I recall, he had no particular interest in this party or that party, it didn't really matter to him who was in charge in Australia, much less in the USA or anywhere else. With him, it was all about whoever was in charge needed to be subjected to transparency, because to him, privacy in government is equal to power in government is equal to corruption in government. He wasn't working toward hurting or helping any particular view or party, he wanted government openness. Well OK then. In the runup to the 2016 US election, it was widely reported that one of the candidates joked about murdering him with a drone. It was the candidate that most people thought would win that election (her stock was selling in the 80s at that time.) OK, look at this from Julian's POV: I am functionally imprisoned in the embassy in Britain, there is no way out of here, and the likely next US president is joking about how she would like to kill me. This... is... not... good. In light of that, cannot we see why he did the things he did? spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 16:56:52 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:56:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <001f01d51573$4b966ef0$e2c34cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003e01d51576$59d149b0$0d73dd10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio >?Spike- >?While I don't agree with it, the US is charging him under conspiracy to commit computer intrusion: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1153486/download Sure I get that, thanks Dylan. But Julian?s co-conspirator did all the same things and 100 times worse. His co-conspirator was a US citizen and had top-level clearances and did attempt to commit computer intrusion and did succeed and did leak. The co-conspirator? who did aaaaaalllll thaaaaaat? has already been released. So? it makes little sense to me to even attempt to charge a foreign national with something like conspiracy to commit computer intrusion, particularly in light of the fact that the intrusion they really really care about? contained no classified information and was not a secure server to start with. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue May 28 16:58:12 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 17:58:12 +0100 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 16:18, Keith Henson wrote: > > I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the > scale that elected Trump. But I am slightly surprised that the US can > charge someone who is not a citizen with publishing classified > information. It feels like charging someone in another country with > treason, i.e., not logical. > > Keith Well, I suppose exposing government corruption probably did help elect Trump. :( BillK [image: exposingillegality.jpg] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: exposingillegality.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 27823 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 17:47:30 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 10:47:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 16:18, Keith Henson > wrote: > >>? I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the > scale that elected Trump. ? Keith >?Well, I suppose exposing government corruption probably did help elect Trump. :( BillK Paradox is piled upon irony in this weird case. Julian damn well did publish classified info, but they never really hoped to convict him on that, because? the New York Times published the highly-classified Pentagon Papers a long time ago, and they were US citizens, and they didn?t get charged. Yet? what Julian?s adversaries really had the heartburn about was his publishing information that was not even classified, hell it wasn?t even properly secured (Password is not a good password.) If one argues that the consequences were enormous, that in itself does not establish the crime, or even who is guilty. Does the guy who set his password to Password share any guilt? In my eyes he does. In systems where the username is patterned (such as first initial last name at something dot org) there are software routines that go down thru guessing the few hundred most common passwords. Password is the most common password. OK somebody got in. Surprise! Sheesh. So? Julian published information that was not classified and was not even properly secured, given to him by a third party. Result: the leading POTUS candidate ?joked? about murdering him with a drone. OK suppose you are Julian and you read that. I can imagine he was not ROTFL-ing. I vaguely imagine he had no trouble sitting right there in his chair, perhaps not even a giggle from that hilarious joke as he sat there in that de-facto maximum security prison with no way out, thinking: Oh how funny! The USA, with aaaaallll its agents and aaaalllll its covert this and that, and aaaaaalllll its military technology, is about to elect a Commander in Chief who jokes about killing me, jocularity how hilarious is that little gag that hundreds of millions of people read about, any one of which could come in here and kill me? Looks to me like that little joke was the western equivalent of a stealth fatwa. I wouldn?t find that a damn bit funny, and perhaps just a wee bit? disconcerting. But hey, I am that way, heh heh, so unreasonably suspicious I am. In light of that, I can vaguely imagine Julian would prefer that particular candidate would lose that election, even if he had no particular viewpoint with respect to another country?s politics. Ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue May 28 18:18:36 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:18:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In my mind, we have already established that lying with regard to sex isn't even really lying, it's... emmmm... you know... it's what... we humans do when we are trying to coax a mate. Honest people can lie in that particular area and still be considered honest. spike While some men will say anything to get sex, this is a bad idea. Some of it is illegal. But if the women is unsure of herself beforehand, she will feel conflicted afterwards, about herself and about you. Do you care about that? If you don't you are a sexual predator with little human empathy. I strongly disagree with the last sentence Spike wrote. You are talking about taking advantage of a person and apparently don't care. Yeah, men will be OK with it. Will women? I think not. It all comes down to what the woman thinks. It is NOT OK if you are lying to get her to comply if you think she wants it too. Of course she does. She is human. Humans like sex a lot - even women, if you know what to do with them - or care. There seems to be too many men who just don't care about anything but Mr. Needy. Wham bam... bill w On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:50 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *BillK > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? > > > > On Tue, 28 May 2019 at 16:18, Keith Henson wrote: > > > >>? I am not terribly happy with Julian since he put his thumb on the > > scale that elected Trump. ? Keith > > >?Well, I suppose exposing government corruption probably did help elect > Trump. :( BillK > > > > > > Paradox is piled upon irony in this weird case. Julian damn well did > publish classified info, but they never really hoped to convict him on > that, because? the New York Times published the highly-classified Pentagon > Papers a long time ago, and they were US citizens, and they didn?t get > charged. > > > > Yet? what Julian?s adversaries really had the heartburn about was his > publishing information that was not even classified, hell it wasn?t even > properly secured (Password is not a good password.) If one argues that the > consequences were enormous, that in itself does not establish the crime, or > even who is guilty. Does the guy who set his password to Password share > any guilt? In my eyes he does. In systems where the username is patterned > (such as first initial last name at something dot org) there are software > routines that go down thru guessing the few hundred most common passwords. > Password is the most common password. OK somebody got in. Surprise! > Sheesh. > > > > So? Julian published information that was not classified and was not even > properly secured, given to him by a third party. Result: the leading POTUS > candidate ?joked? about murdering him with a drone. > > > > OK suppose you are Julian and you read that. I can imagine he was not > ROTFL-ing. I vaguely imagine he had no trouble sitting right there in his > chair, perhaps not even a giggle from that hilarious joke as he sat there > in that de-facto maximum security prison with no way out, thinking: Oh how > funny! The USA, with aaaaallll its agents and aaaalllll its covert this > and that, and aaaaaalllll its military technology, is about to elect a > Commander in Chief who jokes about killing me, jocularity how hilarious is > that little gag that hundreds of millions of people read about, any one of > which could come in here and kill me? > > > > Looks to me like that little joke was the western equivalent of a stealth > fatwa. I wouldn?t find that a damn bit funny, and perhaps just a wee bit? > disconcerting. But hey, I am that way, heh heh, so unreasonably suspicious > I am. > > > > In light of that, I can vaguely imagine Julian would prefer that > particular candidate would lose that election, even if he had no particular > viewpoint with respect to another country?s politics. Ja? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue May 28 18:46:51 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 11:46:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> References: <000201d51280$d0cd3180$72679480$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On May 24, 2019, at 3:34 PM, wrote: > > Julian Assange is being charged in the USA of publishing classified information. By extension, anyone who posts stuff to any public venue, such as this one, could be charged in the USA of publishing classified information if we find out (perhaps after the fact) the nature of the information. > > So now for the notion of freedom of the press to apply, apparently it requires a printing press, which Assange never used. Only the internet. This is a bad thing. I don?t think that he wouldn?t have been charged had he used a conventional printing press and, say, handed out copies of the classified material to passers by. After all, aside from the computer intrusion charge, he?s being charged with violating the Espionage Act of 1917, a law that was around long before the Internet. It?s not like publicizing classified material wasn?t done until the Internet was invented. Freedom of expression ? under which I?d place freedom to publish (in whatever form) ? was long ago eroded. I?m not saying one shouldn?t be outraged by this, but let?s not pretend that the US government has only recently (as in the lifetime of whoever?s the oldest person now on this list) ever tried to hide things and curtail freedom of expression. Heck, one can go back to the 18th century with the Alien and Sedition Acts. Elsewhere someone brought G?del. I hardly think one need get that sophisticated with this. It?s common sense that rulers would want to do what they want without restriction and that they?ll find ways around constitutional limits. The time honored way to do this is to claim there?s an emergency, but it?s also the case that government courts decide just where limits apply (real sovereignty is who gets to decide the exceptions to the rules). Let me ask this: Would you (any of you here) make a contract with me where I get to decide how to interpret in the event you and I disagree about said contract? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue May 28 19:25:07 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:25:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 11:19 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In my mind, we have already established that lying with regard to sex isn't even really lying, it's... emmmm... you know... it's what... we humans do when we are trying to coax a mate. Honest people can lie in that particular area and still be considered honest. spike >?While some men will say anything to get sex, this is a bad idea. ?She is human. Humans like sex a lot - even women, if you know what to do with them - or care. There seems to be too many men who just don't care about anything but Mr. Needy. Wham bam... bill w Certainly all that. In a legal sense in the US, it just works differently than Sweden apparently. Scenario: woman gets pregnant, sues man for child support. He claims she told him she was using the pill. She wasn?t. Her fault. (Cue judge peering over glasses.) Is that the best you can do, young man? She lied about using the pill? Now you think you shouldn?t help pay for your child? He loses. He pays. Scenario: woman goes to court claiming he said he was going to use a condom. He didn?t. RAPE! (Cue same judge peering over same glasses.) Is that the best you can do, young lady? How about if you marry him first, THEN ask if he plans to use a condom. BANG goes the gavel, she loses, case dismissed. I don?t know how they do it in Sweden, but apparently the Swedes thought the rape case was pretty flimsy already, so they dropped it. In Britain, ordinarily the bond is set such that if the perp skips, then they don?t really worry about it, because it is set at the maximum fine he was likely to get to start with. So Julian put up bail and skipped town on a charge the Swedes dropped, and now the US is extraditing him here, where half the political spectrum (or more) wants him dead, to face charges for which his (damn-well guilty of a hundred times greater crime) co-conspirator has already been charged and released, when the crime for which they really want him dead is something for which it is a bit vague is illegal and for which he hasn?t been charged! (guessing passwords and exploiting the results (which really is only important because it exposed someone else?s wrongdoing.)) How weird is all this? And yet? we still haven?t talked about an area in which plenty of people here have actual expertise: computer systems administration. SysAdmin hipsters please: what blame can reasonably fall on the guy who was in charge of that system that was penetrated with such astonishing consequences? What happens when one is a SysAdmin and somehow the entire server is compromised? From a legal standpoint, does it matter that the consequences impacted history profoundly? Why? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jrd1415 at gmail.com Tue May 28 20:22:13 2019 From: jrd1415 at gmail.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 14:22:13 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?" Message-ID: Dear John, I'm somewhat puzzled as to what it is about our president that's caused you to go all loopy loopy. Perhaps it's envy, perhaps it's that he's all the things you are not: tall, handsome, charming, brash, confident, supremely successful, filthy rich of course, and has access to the best pussy the world has to offer, which is to say, all the pussy he deems worthy to grab. I can't know exactly what it is, but you're sensitive about something. However, here's hoping that I can ease your troubled mind. Lately there's been a bit of hysteria over the possibility -- a low probability in my view -- that notwithstanding the 22nd amendment, the Trumpinator might want to stick around as the White House resident after January 2025. First, let me say I don't really personally see how that would be a problem. Many people consider Franklin Roosevelt to have been a great president, so I don't really understand why, except perhaps out of political jealousy, one would want to prematurely terminate a good thing. But that's just me. Tat said, here's my main point. We Extropians -- I've always considered myself an Extropian Without Portfolio --have been monitoring the progress of technology for some quarter of a century now, and have pondered endlessly notions of Life Extension, artificial intelligence, cybernetics, the uploading/downloading/joining/merging of human intelligence with the larger exponentially transcendent synthetic machine intelligence, ie, AI. Yippee! But if it should turn out that we are lucky enough to be on the cusp of these events, which we have so long dreamed of, and our current president, the greatest president ever, should hang in there beyond what the actuarial tables of the pre-singularity era suggest, then it's entirely possible that Trump himself may be the first human to upload and transcend. Imagine if you will, if you can, that we humans are the first and only intelligence to have emerged in the universe, and that Donald J Trump having privileged access to the most Advanced Darpaian Technologies available, becomes ***THE ONE*** , the first to merge with transcendent machine intelligence and becomes ... wait for it ... God Himself. Sleep well my friend, sweet dreams. Oh, and, one final note. About eight or so years ago you fiercely declared the impossibility of free will. My reaction: I instinctively recoiled at the notion, since every spiritual being instinctively recognizes that life itself, subjective experience itself, clearly, self-evidently, proves the existence of free will. But your argument was logically robust, nay, more than that, logically seemingly unassailable. And yet, I simply, and humbly, in light of the great respect I hold for your uncompromising rigor, had to object. So now, lo these many years hence, I must thank you for setting me on my quest of these last 8, 10, 12, years. A quest to uncover the defect in your reasoning, and prove that your logic, for all its powers, is in the matter of free will, feeble and inadequate. The universe has features that transcend mere logic, enabling the fundamental truth of spiritual existence, the freedom of consciousness, of spiritual beings, to be the masters of their own fate. So celebrate with me this great liberating truth: each and every one of us is indeed free to choose his own path. And thank you once again for choosing me to bring you to enlightenment. Ever your grateful student and devoted friend, Jeff Davis -- "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue May 28 21:31:11 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 17:31:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <001101d51571$d1207270$73615750$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d51571$d1207270$73615750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 12:27 PM wrote: > *> Julian published a bunch of stuff stolen by Corporal Manning, which > wasclassified up the kazoo. * If he just published the stuff that Manning obtained then Julian shouldn't go to jail, everybody has the right to publish anything. And I have the right to say he was irresponsible for doing so; he didn't even know what he was publishing, there were 251,287 documents and I doubt if he even skimmed 2% of them much less gave any thought to the lives he may put in danger. That's why it's different from the Pentagon Papers, that embarrassed many people who deserve to be embarrassed but put no lives in danger. And if Julian did more and actively encouraged Manning to steal the stuff then he's guilty of espionage. > > *> But the way he really pissed off masses of people is in publishing > stuff that was not classified at all. The biggest deal was obtained by > guessing a password (the victim's password was Password.)Sheesh.* That's irrelevant, I may be foolish if I don't lock the door on my house but that doesn't give you the right to come in and steal all my stuff. And that stuff unearthed contained no scandals it was just office backbiting and gossip, but people love to read about how X thinks Y is a jerk, and it got Trump elected. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 29 12:16:03 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 08:16:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 3:28 PM wrote: > > > And yet? we still haven?t talked about an area in which plenty of people > here have actual expertise: computer systems administration. SysAdmin > hipsters please: what blame can reasonably fall on the guy who was in > charge of that system that was penetrated with such astonishing > consequences? > Who knows? Maybe the sysadmins complained about weak password policy/enforcement and were told not to do anything about it. > What happens when one is a SysAdmin and somehow the entire server is > compromised? > It varies. They could be fired, either for not preventing the compromise or as a scapegoat. If the company is public and the damage is severe, the CIO/CTO/CISO could end up taking the hit. > From a legal standpoint, does it matter that the consequences impacted > history profoundly? Why? > I have no idea. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 14:07:39 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 07:07:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 3:28 PM > wrote: And yet? we still haven?t talked about an area in which plenty of people here have actual expertise: computer systems administration. SysAdmin hipsters please: what blame can reasonably fall on the guy who was in charge of that system that was penetrated with such astonishing consequences? >?Who knows? Maybe the sysadmins complained about weak password policy/enforcement and were told not to do anything about it? The system already had weak passwords, which is why some yahoo set his password to Password and somebody got in. However? that would only compromise that account. If several users had weak passwords, that would only compromise their own. But apparently somebody got in at the SysAdmin level. Weak password requirements wouldn?t apply there. What happens when one is a SysAdmin and somehow the entire server is compromised? >?It varies. They could be fired, either for not preventing the compromise or as a scapegoat. If the company is public and the damage is severe, the CIO/CTO/CISO could end up taking the hit. -Dave Ja, that?s the weird part. An outsider, this Australian foreign national did this and that (why that scoundrel!) but seldom do we hear what I have long suspected: the outsider would have needed an insider in cahoots in order to get access to that server at the system level. With the State Department stuff we know who the insider was: Corporal Manning, but Manning got off with a slap on the wrist, and is free now. We don?t know who the insider was on the other business, but there would have to have been one, if the system had been set up correctly. Of the political stuff Julian published on WikiLeaks, nothing in there was classified, not a word of it. With all this focus on Julian, he did 1% of what Cpl Manning and the (unknown) DNC insider did, yet the focus is all on Julian. Julian was the one imprisoned for years in an embassy in London and was threatened with murder, while these others go free. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 29 15:19:13 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:19:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 10:07 AM wrote: > > > The system already had weak passwords, which is why some yahoo set his > password to Password and somebody got in. However? that would only > compromise that account. > Not necessarily. That would have enabled an attacker to apply a privilege elevation exploit, of which there are many. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 16:17:34 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 09:17:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000801d5163a$071aaa80$154fff80$@rainier66.com> From: Dave Sill Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 10:07 AM > wrote: The system already had weak passwords, which is why some yahoo set his password to Password and somebody got in. However? that would only compromise that account. >?Not necessarily. That would have enabled an attacker to apply a privilege elevation exploit, of which there are many. -Dave Dave, if it is physically possible to enable (by any means, technological, bribery or religion-based miracle) privilege elevation, and do so without detection, then that server was set up incorrectly. It is analogous to a bank vault left hanging open and all the employees going out to lunch simultaneously. If someone wanders in off the street, sees, hauls away a coupla sacks of money undetected, that is considered an inside job. OK then. Bank people and licensed SysAdmins are trained how to not let that happen. If somehow someone does elevate privilege and start downloading stuff somehow, the SysAdmin would at least know something is going wrong. If she doesn?t know and the bad guy does get away with the data undetected, that is an inside job, and she (the SysAdmin) is in trouble deep. I am not a SysAdmin, and my limited experience in that area is nearly 40 years old (DEC 11-750 mainframe) but even way back then, we knew about data theft and we knew what precautions were in place to prevent it. For starters, you would set up with a low-speed data line. So even if you did have a crooked insider attempts to steal data, they wouldn?t get much and she would find out forthwith. We have a case where the real heartburn with Julian isn?t even about national security really. It is expressed by Keith and others, who recognize that the DNC material had a huge and negative impact on history, because it revealed what goes into making the political sausage behind the scenes, which causes plenty of former political sausage-devourers to barf, and swear off sausage forever. Shrugs. None of that political sausage-making was classified (in the legal national-security sense) but oh mercy, it was some sensitive information. It looks to me like it isn?t Julian Assange we should be holding accountable for that leak but rather whoever leaked the information to start with. All fingers point back to the SysAdmin. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 16:33:26 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 09:33:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] snakes in the toilet Message-ID: <001d01d5163c$3e89e150$bb9da3f0$@rainier66.com> Sheesh check this: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs -snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html OK cool, so we know snakes can swim underwater, and they can go in pipes, either direction. And we know snakes can come up thru the toilet, since that S curve down there doesn't discourage the slithery bastards one bit. It is almost like they evolved to swim up the toilet. We know people keep snakes for pets and we know how they tend to get rid of them when they get too big or the owner gets tired of buying them mice. We know how this thing could really break one's concentration, ja? Sit there trying not to think about what might be coming up from below where you can't really see, and how that thing might really like a nice fat. mouse and oh dear evolution have mercy. This gives me a great idea. I bet we could rig up a snake diode, a kind of one-way valve or something, that would allow the usual flow down but would not allow reverse. Oh we will make a buttload. We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet, just an insert that looks a little like the feathered nozzle on a fighter-jet engine, plastic, spreads open when stuff goes down, closes when a hungry goddam snake tries to come back up and eyeball your stuff from below. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 17:11:54 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 10:11:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] snakes in the toilet Message-ID: <004801d51641$9d980a50$d8c81ef0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: snakes in the toilet Sheesh check this: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs -snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html . >.We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet. etc. spike Hey wait I have a better idea. We might be able to come up with a kind of device which wouldn't require removal of the toilet to install it. A rubber ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind of flexible wand, down it goes, done. Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner. It could signal a very loud warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound. We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don't even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that toilet. The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word, since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in the toilet that we do. Then there is the after-market. We could sell a device which would set off the GYAOTT by remote control. House guest brother-in-law staying too long, get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he just sat down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be such fun, a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary market alone. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed May 29 17:12:20 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:12:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <000801d5163a$071aaa80$154fff80$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> <000801d5163a$071aaa80$154fff80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM wrote: > > > Dave, if it is physically possible to enable (by any means, technological, > bribery or religion-based miracle) privilege elevation, and do so without > detection, then that server was set up incorrectly. > It would be nice if reality was that black and white and perfect security was achievable and usable, but that's not the case. There are a wide range of hardware, firmware, and software bugs that can be exploited to elevate privileges. Even if a sysadmin knew of all of them that were known, that doesn't mean that there are fixes available for them, and, more importantly, there are still going to be exploitable bugs that aren't known: they call them zero-day vulnerabilities. > It is analogous to a bank vault left hanging open and all the employees > going out to lunch simultaneously. If someone wanders in off the street, > sees, hauls away a coupla sacks of money undetected, that is considered an > inside job. > No, it's more like a skilled bank robber is able pick the bank's door lock and use a weakness in the vault lock to unlock it. OK then. Bank people and licensed SysAdmins are trained how to not let > that happen. > Sysadmins aren't licensed. I've been one for the US Navy and Dept. of Energy for 30+ years. For the most part, sysadmins aren't even trained. My BS in Computer Science included 0 hours of system administration and 0 hours of computer security. There are lots of certifications these days, but employers, including mine, are slow to require them or pay for employees to attain them. If somehow someone does elevate privilege and start downloading stuff > somehow, the SysAdmin would at least know something is going wrong. If she > doesn?t know and the bad guy does get away with the data undetected, that > is an inside job, and she (the SysAdmin) is in trouble deep. > Nope. I know such things *shouldn't* happen, but they do. Often sysadmins aren't able to do things they want to do, security wise, that their bosses won't permit or fund. I am not a SysAdmin, and my limited experience in that area is nearly 40 > years old (DEC 11-750 mainframe) but even way back then, we knew about data > theft and we knew what precautions were in place to prevent it. > IT is *vastly* more complicated than it was 40 years ago. For example, if you've got an Intel processor, you're probably vulnerable to a series of bugs that can't be fixed by software or reconfiguration (Spectre/Meltdown and other branch prediction bugs). For starters, you would set up with a low-speed data line. So even if you > did have a crooked insider attempts to steal data, they wouldn?t get much > and she would find out forthwith. > Until the first user complains that upload/downloads are taking too long, and if they've got gigabit n/w to their house, how come the servers are limited to KB/s? I'm not saying that in this particular case there's nothing the sysadmin could have done to prevent the breach. I'm saying we don't know how responsible he is for the system's exploitability, -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed May 29 17:20:59 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:20:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 4:25 PM Jeff Davis wrote: *> I'm somewhat puzzled as to what it is about our president that's caused > you to go all loopy loopy. * > There are 2 things about Trump that make me go all loopy loopy. #1)Trump strongly disagrees with Richard Feynman's statement "*reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled*" Trump thinks that if he wants something to be true hard enough then it is. Trump wants his inaugural crowd to be the largest ever so it was. Trump wants vaccinations to cause autism so it does. Trump wants the climate not to be changing so it isn't. Trump wants Iran to violate its nuclear treaty so it has. Trump wants North Korean leader Kim Jong-un to be a existential threat to the USA so he is. Trump changes his mind and in his own words "fell in love" with Kim Jong-un so now he's of no threat to anyone. #2) Trump lies. All politicians lie from time to time but the machine gun rate the lies come out of Trump's pie hole in a typical speech is something new. And what really makes me mad is he doesn't even think we're worth the time to dream up a good lie, his lies are transparent and ridiculous and beloved by his fellow fascists at his Nuremberg style rallies. On April 27 2019 Trump passed a milestone, on that day he told his 10,000'th lie since becoming president. Fact-checking Trump And far from slowing down the rate is accelerating, during the last seven months he has told on average 23 lies a day, that works out to one publicly utter lie every 42 waking minutes. John Lester is a professional bookmaker at BookMaker.eu and he set odds that Trump will tell at least 22,500 lies by election day 2020. By the way Lester got into trouble recently by underestimating the number of lies Trump would tell in a recent 8 minute speech. Lester set the odds at -145 for more than 3.5 lies and +115 for less than 3.5 lies. For example if you bet $145 that Trump would lie at least four times you would win $100. But if turned out Trump told 6 lies (one lie every 80 seconds) and BookMaker.eu lost $270,000 as a result. Gamblers Made $270,000 Betting That Trump Would Lie A LOT > *Lately there's been a bit of hysteria over the possibility -- a low > probability in my view -- that notwithstanding the 22nd amendment, the > Trumpinator might want to stick around as the White House resident after > January 2025. * > Forget January 2025 and think about January 2021. Even if Trump loses in a landslide in the 2020 election I would say there is a 40% chance he will say the election was fake and try to stay in office long after January 2021 and claim he will reschedule a new election at some vague unspecified future date. And if there is a inverse of the 2016 situation and Trump wins the popular vote but loses in the Electoral College I think it's virtually certain he will need to be dragged out of the Oval Office by armed guards. I don't know if his attempt to become dictator will be successful but even if he fails it will be ugly, such a power grab will lead to blood literally flowing in the streets. *> First, let me say I don't really personally see how that would be a > problem. Many people consider Franklin Roosevelt to have been a great > president, so I don't really understand why, except perhaps out of > political jealousy, one would want to prematurely terminate a good thing. > But that's just me. * > I'm curious, 52% of Republicans say they would be OK with it if Trump canceled the 2020 election, do you agree with 52% of Republicans? > * > About eight or so years ago you fiercely declared the impossibility of > free will. * > I don't think I ever said Free Will is impossible, I said free will is an idea so bad it's not even wrong. A Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible but a Klogknee Machine is not impossible, a Klogknee Machine is gibberish and so is Free Will. Gibberish is neither true nor false, it's just gibberish. > *every spiritual being instinctively recognizes that life itself, > subjective experience itself, clearly, self-evidently, proves the existence > of free will.* > I don't agree with that and I don't disagree with it either, I don't know what the hell it means. > > *The universe has features that transcend mere logic,* > That must be why you're a Trump fan, I'd be one too but I sorta like logic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 18:43:23 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:43:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] progress toward proof of riemann hypothesis claimed Message-ID: <009401d5164e$65b97210$312c5630$@rainier66.com> My inbox has been buzzing about this for the last several days: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/05/20/1902572116 Tragic that I know so little about the Riemann zeta function. It is wicked cool, and if his hypothesis is not true, mathematics is screwed profoundly. It is a profound tragedy that in this critical moment, what little remaining brain power I have is distracted by schemes to play gags on my brother-in-law by rigging a GYAOTT snake detector on the guest-room toilet (oh dear, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.) Have we any Riemann gurus among us who wish to comment? (On the hypothesis I mean, not the GYAOTT.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 29 21:30:39 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:30:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] snakes in the toilet In-Reply-To: <004801d51641$9d980a50$d8c81ef0$@rainier66.com> References: <004801d51641$9d980a50$d8c81ef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Or - a remote-controlled bidet. When to trigger it may be a problem without remote cameras or the sensor you mentioned. So, in other words, we need some things beyond the law to make this really effective for an audience. Hearing shrieks is not enough. We want pictures. Oh well. bill w On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:14 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Subject:* snakes in the toilet > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh check this: > > > > > https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs-snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html > > > > ? > > >?We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed > thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet? etc. spike > > > > > > > > Hey wait I have a better idea. We might be able to come up with a kind of > device which wouldn?t require removal of the toilet to install it. A > rubber ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind > of flexible wand, down it goes, done. > > > > Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the > snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was > trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner. It could signal a very loud > warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP > WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound. > > > > We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don?t > even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that > toilet. > > > > The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word, > since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in > the toilet that we do. > > > > Then there is the after-market. We could sell a device which would set > off the GYAOTT by remote control. House guest brother-in-law staying too > long, get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he > just sat down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be > such fun, a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary > market alone. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed May 29 21:44:07 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:44:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] more liu Message-ID: Book of short stories by Cixin Liu: The Wandering Earth (not just earth-shaking, but Earth moving) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed May 29 23:48:46 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:48:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> Greetings fellow journalists, It?s weird on multiple levels. I am watching the simmering debate on Julian Assange. In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do with that whole freedom of the press/speech business. I see some arguing that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t apply to him. But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything about journalists. That word isn?t even there. So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.) But I see posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK then. Can we all recognize each other as journalists? Can this forum become a journalists? hangout? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 30 00:42:17 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 19:42:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Can this forum become a journalists? hangout? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? spike Yeah. Just what is the 'press'? No license. No degree necessary. No sense necessary. And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the second amendment that aren't covered in the first? When the Bill of Rights was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if burning flags is speech, then written material should be too. Gang? bill w bill w On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:51 PM wrote: > > > Greetings fellow journalists, > > > > It?s weird on multiple levels. I am watching the simmering debate on > Julian Assange. In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to > foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do > with that whole freedom of the press/speech business. I see some arguing > that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t > apply to him. But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything > about journalists. That word isn?t even there. > > > > So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is > some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.) But I see > posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK > then. Can we all recognize each other as journalists? Can this forum > become a journalists? hangout? Then if so, are we extended all US first > amendment rights? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu May 30 01:11:20 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 18:11:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3AC3489A-11C5-4F59-8325-775017A3C216@gmail.com> On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > Can this forum become a journalists? hangout? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? > > > > spike > > > > Yeah. Just what is the 'press'? No license. No degree necessary. No sense necessary. > > > > And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the second amendment that aren't covered in the first? When the Bill of Rights was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if burning flags is speech, then written material should be too. Gang? > > > > bill w > Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press. Also, don?t you think they had both publications ? books, newspapers, pamphlets, handbills, etc. ? and public oratory back then? It?s not like the Amendment was written in a society where only a tiny number of professionals wrote and read and never ever spoke to each other. Of course, the interpretation of the text is a different matter, though most arguments limiting free expression have been more about either social mores (obscenity restrictions) or national security than about what the nature of expression is as such. (The idiotic ?crying fire in a theater? argument is a bit different, though it was used to cover national security: to limit antiwar protest when the US entered WW1 and not to protect theatergoers. Notably, theaters (and fires in them) weren?t a Twentieth Century innovation.) Or at least that?s my belief. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 30 04:14:08 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 21:14:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? In-Reply-To: <3AC3489A-11C5-4F59-8325-775017A3C216@gmail.com> References: <006d01d5157d$6c894b50$459be1f0$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d5158b$0f715260$2e53f720$@rainier66.com> <001001d51627$e0f73290$a2e597b0$@rainier66.com> <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> <3AC3489A-11C5-4F59-8325-775017A3C216@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005001d5169e$20ebdd30$62c39790$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: >>> ?Can this forum become a journalists? hangout? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? spike >>?Yeah. Just what is the 'press'? No license. No degree necessary. No sense necessary? bill w >?Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press?Regards, Dan It is too easy to imagine the outcome of this situation: OK so we will burn Assange, since he published all that national security stuff and wasn?t really even a journalist. It really shouldn?t set a precedent. Publishing national security stuff is bad, and the New York Times, well, OK we will burn them too, but only when they do the political stuff, and perhaps the Washington Post and maybe the LA Times. Newsweek of course publishes stuff they shouldn?t. And Time magazine, but they are way past their prime and CNN, MSNBC and a few others hafta be taught a lesson. Those guys have all published stuff sensitive to national security, claiming to be journalists, but in any case we got that bad old Julian Assange, did we not? We got him! And we cleaned up the airwaves and internet while we were at it, cut right on down with that old fake news problem and the national security problem, solved that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cixcell at yahoo.com Thu May 30 19:55:07 2019 From: cixcell at yahoo.com (Chris Hind) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 19:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 188, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1658580976.6897331.1559246107306@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I dont think I've been on the extropian mailinglist since 2000. I go back into the archives and I'm startled to see a highschool version of me predicting things that have now occurred. I was quite amused to see I actually built some of the things I speculated about regarding virtual reality and augmented reality. Anyone else out there still from back in the day or has everyone moved on? On Wednesday, May 29, 2019, 11:28:06 PM EST, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: Send extropy-chat mailing list submissions to ??? extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org You can reach the person managing the list at ??? extropy-chat-owner at lists.extropy.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of extropy-chat digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: snakes in the toilet (spike at rainier66.com) ? 2. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (Dave Sill) ? 3. Re: Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?" (John Clark) ? 4. progress toward proof of riemann hypothesis claimed ? ? ? (spike at rainier66.com) ? 5. Re: snakes in the toilet (William Flynn Wallace) ? 6. more liu (William Flynn Wallace) ? 7. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (spike at rainier66.com) ? 8. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (William Flynn Wallace) ? 9. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (Dan TheBookMan) ? 10. Re: ExI] are we publishing? (spike at rainier66.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 10:11:54 -0700 From: To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: Re: [ExI] snakes in the toilet Message-ID: <004801d51641$9d980a50$d8c81ef0$@rainier66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: snakes in the toilet Sheesh check this: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs -snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html . >.We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet. etc.? spike Hey wait I have a better idea.? We might be able to come up with a kind of device which wouldn't require removal of the toilet to install it.? A rubber ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind of flexible wand, down it goes, done. Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner.? It could signal a very loud warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound. We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don't even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that toilet. The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word, since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in the toilet that we do. Then there is the after-market.? We could sell a device which would set off the GYAOTT by remote control.? House guest brother-in-law staying too long, get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he just sat down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be such fun, a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary market alone. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:12:20 -0400 From: Dave Sill To: Spike Jones Cc: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:17 PM wrote: > > > Dave, if it is physically possible to enable (by any means, technological, > bribery or religion-based miracle) privilege elevation, and do so without > detection, then that server was set up incorrectly. > It would be nice if reality was that black and white and perfect security was achievable and usable, but that's not the case. There are a wide range of hardware, firmware, and software bugs that can be exploited to elevate privileges. Even if a sysadmin knew of all of them that were known, that doesn't mean that there are fixes available for them, and, more importantly, there are still going to be exploitable bugs that aren't known: they call them zero-day vulnerabilities. > It is analogous to a bank vault left hanging open and all the employees > going out to lunch simultaneously.? If someone wanders in off the street, > sees, hauls away a coupla sacks of money undetected, that is considered an > inside job. > No, it's more like a skilled bank robber is able pick the bank's door lock and use a weakness in the vault lock to unlock it. OK then.? Bank people and licensed SysAdmins are trained how to not let > that happen. > Sysadmins aren't licensed. I've been one for the US Navy and Dept. of Energy for 30+ years. For the most part, sysadmins aren't even trained. My BS in Computer Science included 0 hours of system administration and 0 hours of computer security. There are lots of certifications these days, but employers, including mine, are slow to require them or pay for employees to attain them. ? If somehow someone does elevate privilege and start downloading stuff > somehow, the SysAdmin would at least know something is going wrong.? If she > doesn?t know and the bad guy does get away with the data undetected, that > is an inside job, and she (the SysAdmin) is in trouble deep. > Nope. I know such things *shouldn't* happen, but they do. Often sysadmins aren't able to do things they want to do, security wise, that their bosses won't permit or fund. I am not a SysAdmin, and my limited experience in that area is nearly 40 > years old (DEC 11-750 mainframe) but even way back then, we knew about data > theft and we knew what precautions were in place to prevent it. > IT is *vastly* more complicated than it was 40 years ago. For example, if you've got an Intel processor, you're probably vulnerable to a series of bugs that can't be fixed by software or reconfiguration (Spectre/Meltdown and other branch prediction bugs). For starters, you would set up with a low-speed data line.? So even if you > did have a crooked insider attempts to steal data, they wouldn?t get much > and she would find out forthwith. > Until the first user complains that upload/downloads are taking too long, and if they've got gigabit n/w to their house, how come the servers are limited to KB/s? I'm not saying that in this particular case there's nothing the sysadmin could have done to prevent the breach. I'm saying we don't know how responsible he is for the system's exploitability, -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:20:59 -0400 From: John Clark To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] Enlightenment at Last, was "are we publishing?" Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 4:25 PM Jeff Davis wrote: *> I'm somewhat puzzled as to what it is about our president that's caused > you to go all loopy loopy. * > There are 2 things about Trump that make me go all loopy loopy. #1)Trump strongly disagrees with Richard Feynman's statement "*reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled*" Trump thinks that if he wants something to be true hard enough then it is. Trump wants his inaugural crowd to be the largest ever so it was. Trump wants vaccinations to cause autism so it does. Trump wants the climate not to be changing so it isn't. Trump wants Iran to violate its nuclear treaty so it has. Trump wants North Korean leader Kim Jong-un to be a existential threat to the USA so he is. Trump changes his mind and in his own words "fell in love" with Kim Jong-un so now he's of no threat to anyone. #2) Trump lies. All politicians lie from time to time but the machine gun rate the lies come out of Trump's pie hole in a typical speech is something new.? And what really makes me mad is he doesn't even think we're worth the time to dream up a good lie, his lies are transparent and ridiculous and beloved by his fellow fascists at his Nuremberg style rallies. On April 27 2019 Trump passed a milestone, on that day he told his 10,000'th lie since becoming president. Fact-checking Trump And far from slowing down the rate is accelerating, during the last seven months he has told on average 23 lies a day, that works out to one publicly utter lie every 42 waking minutes. John Lester is a professional bookmaker at? BookMaker.eu and he set odds that Trump will tell at least 22,500 lies by election day 2020.? By the way Lester got into trouble recently by underestimating the number of lies Trump would tell in a recent 8 minute speech. Lester set the odds at? -145 for more than 3.5 lies and +115 for less than 3.5 lies. For example if you bet $145? that Trump would lie at least four times you would win $100. But if turned out Trump told 6 lies (one lie every 80 seconds) and BookMaker.eu lost $270,000 as a result. Gamblers Made $270,000 Betting That Trump Would Lie A LOT > *Lately there's been a bit of hysteria over the possibility -- a low > probability in my view -- that notwithstanding the 22nd amendment, the > Trumpinator might want to stick around as the White House resident after > January 2025. * > Forget January 2025 and think about January 2021.? Even if Trump loses in a landslide in the 2020 election I would say there is a 40% chance he will say the election was fake and try to stay in office long after January 2021 and claim he will reschedule a new election at some vague unspecified future date. And if there is a inverse of the 2016 situation and Trump wins the popular vote but loses in the Electoral College I think it's virtually certain he will need to be dragged out of the Oval Office by armed guards. I don't know if his attempt to become dictator will be successful but even if he fails it will be ugly, such a power grab will lead to blood literally flowing in the streets. *> First, let me say I don't really personally see how that would be a > problem. Many people consider Franklin Roosevelt to have been a great > president, so I don't really understand why, except? perhaps out of > political jealousy, one would want to prematurely terminate a good thing. > But that's just me.? * > I'm curious, 52% of Republicans say they would be OK with it if Trump canceled the 2020 election, do you agree with 52% of Republicans? > * > About eight or so years ago you fiercely declared the impossibility of > free will. * > I don't think I ever said Free Will is impossible, I said free will is an idea so bad it's not even wrong. A Perpetual Motion Machine is impossible but a Klogknee Machine is not impossible, a Klogknee Machine is gibberish and so is Free Will. Gibberish is neither true nor false, it's just gibberish. > *every spiritual being instinctively recognizes that life itself, > subjective experience itself, clearly, self-evidently, proves the existence > of free will.* > I don't agree with that and I don't disagree with it either, I don't know what the hell it means. > > *The universe has features that transcend mere logic,* > That must be why you're a Trump fan, I'd be one too but I sorta like logic. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:43:23 -0700 From: To: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: [ExI] progress toward proof of riemann hypothesis claimed Message-ID: <009401d5164e$65b97210$312c5630$@rainier66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My inbox has been buzzing about this for the last several days: https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019/05/20/1902572116 Tragic that I know so little about the Riemann zeta function.? It is wicked cool, and if his hypothesis is not true, mathematics is screwed profoundly. It is a profound tragedy that in this critical moment, what little remaining brain power I have is distracted by schemes to play gags on my brother-in-law by rigging a GYAOTT snake detector on the guest-room toilet (oh dear, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.) Have we any Riemann gurus among us who wish to comment?? (On the hypothesis I mean, not the GYAOTT.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:30:39 -0500 From: William Flynn Wallace To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] snakes in the toilet Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Or - a remote-controlled bidet.? When to trigger it may be a problem without remote cameras or the sensor you mentioned.? So, in other words, we need some things beyond the law to make this really effective for an audience.? Hearing shrieks is not enough.? We want pictures.? Oh well. bill w On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 12:14 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2019 9:33 AM > *To:* 'ExI chat list' > *Subject:* snakes in the toilet > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh check this: > > > > > https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/coral-springs/fl-ne-coral-springs-snake-attack-20190528-togijbdkvvgspd2nfjptngzsh4-story.html > > > > ? > > >?We would spawn an industry, retrofitting existing toilets: a 3D printed > thing that would fit in the bottom of a standard toilet? etc.? spike > > > > > > > > Hey wait I have a better idea.? We might be able to come up with a kind of > device which wouldn?t require removal of the toilet to install it.? A > rubber ring would compress enough to go in thru the top, have it on a kind > of flexible wand, down it goes, done. > > > > Wait, even better: a kind of motion detector which would trigger when the > snake diode closed or even if it sensed some goddam thing down there was > trying to sneak past it, coming up for dinner.? It could signal a very loud > warning kinda like those cockpit ground sensor things that go PULL UP WHOOP > WHOOP PULL UP and hey, we could just use that as the warning sound. > > > > We could come up with a cutesy name for it such as GYAOTT, and you don?t > even need to offer that it is the acronym for get your ass off that > toilet. > > > > The proles would figure it out, and it would become an international word, > since plenty of places in the world have a bigger problem with snakes in > the toilet that we do. > > > > Then there is the after-market.? We could sell a device which would set > off the GYAOTT by remote control.? House guest brother-in-law staying too > long, get him a little stoned, middle of the night, detector indicates he > just sat down, you hit a switch, PULL UP WHOOP WHOOP etc, oh that would be > such fun, a kick in the ass, we will make a buttload on the secondary > market alone. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:44:07 -0500 From: William Flynn Wallace To: ExI chat list Subject: [ExI] more liu Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Book of short stories by Cixin Liu: The Wandering Earth (not just earth-shaking, but Earth moving) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 16:48:46 -0700 From: To: "'Dave Sill'" Cc: "'ExI chat list'" Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: <000f01d51679$0e706b00$2b514100$@rainier66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Greetings fellow journalists, It?s weird on multiple levels.? I am watching the simmering debate on Julian Assange.? In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do with that whole freedom of the press/speech business.? I see some arguing that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t apply to him.? But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything about journalists.? That word isn?t even there.? So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.)? But I see posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK then.? Can we all recognize each other as journalists?? Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights?? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 19:42:17 -0500 From: William Flynn Wallace To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? spike Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?? No license.? No degree necessary.? No sense necessary. And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the second amendment that aren't covered in the first?? When the Bill of Rights was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if burning flags is speech, then written material should be too.? Gang? bill w bill w On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 6:51 PM wrote: > > > Greetings fellow journalists, > > > > It?s weird on multiple levels.? I am watching the simmering debate on > Julian Assange.? In the USA, we tend to extend US Constitutional rights to > foreign nationals in many cases, so they don?t really quite know what to do > with that whole freedom of the press/speech business.? I see some arguing > that Assange is not a real journalist, so freedom of the press doesn?t > apply to him.? But I see nothing in that first amendment that says anything > about journalists.? That word isn?t even there. > > > > So I look around for a definition of the term journalist, and if there is > some kind of professional license or something (there isn?t.)? But I see > posters here and there say things about ?recognized journalist? so, well OK > then.? Can we all recognize each other as journalists?? Can this forum > become a journalists? hangout?? Then if so, are we extended all US first > amendment rights? > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 18:11:20 -0700 From: Dan TheBookMan To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: <3AC3489A-11C5-4F59-8325-775017A3C216 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > >? Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? > >? > > spike > > > > Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?? No license.? No degree necessary.? No sense necessary.? > > > > And maybe someone can explain what rights are in the press part of the second amendment that aren't covered in the first?? When the Bill of Rights was written, probably they did not think of writing as speech, but if burning flags is speech, then written material should be too.? Gang? > > > > bill w > Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press. Also, don?t you think they had both publications ? books, newspapers, pamphlets, handbills, etc. ? and public oratory back then? It?s not like the Amendment was written in a society where only a tiny number of professionals wrote and read and never ever spoke to each other. Of course, the interpretation of the text is a different matter, though most arguments limiting free expression have been more about either social mores (obscenity restrictions) or national security than about what the nature of expression is as such. (The idiotic ?crying fire in a theater? argument is a bit different, though it was used to cover national security: to limit antiwar protest when the US entered WW1 and not to protect theatergoers. Notably, theaters (and fires in them) weren?t a Twentieth Century innovation.) Or at least that?s my belief.? ? Regards, Dan ? Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 21:14:08 -0700 From: To: "'ExI chat list'" Cc: Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? Message-ID: <005001d5169e$20ebdd30$62c39790$@rainier66.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan Subject: Re: [ExI] ExI] are we publishing? On May 29, 2019, at 5:42 PM, William Flynn Wallace > wrote: >>> ?Can this forum become a journalists? hangout?? Then if so, are we extended all US first amendment rights? spike >>?Yeah. Just what is the 'press'?? No license.? No degree necessary.? No sense necessary? bill w >?Look at the text of the First Amendment.... It already covers both freedom of speech and of the press?Regards, Dan It is too easy to imagine the outcome of this situation:? OK so we will burn Assange, since he published all that national security stuff and wasn?t really even a journalist.? It really shouldn?t set a precedent.? Publishing national security stuff is bad, and the New York Times, well, OK we will burn them too, but only when they do the political stuff, and perhaps the Washington Post and maybe the LA Times.? Newsweek of course publishes stuff they shouldn?t.? And Time magazine, but they are way past their prime and CNN, MSNBC and a few others hafta be taught a lesson.? Those guys have all published stuff sensitive to national security, claiming to be journalists, but in any case we got that bad old Julian Assange, did we not?? We got him!? And we cleaned up the airwaves and internet while we were at it, cut right on down with that old fake news problem and the national security problem, solved that. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat ------------------------------ End of extropy-chat Digest, Vol 188, Issue 21 ********************************************* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 30 22:47:20 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:47:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gre Message-ID: You may have read of graduate schools dropping the use of the Graduate Record Exam as a part of admission. While it is true that the correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure by the GRE is irrelevant to grad school work. I think was is going on, and always has gone on, is that you are dealing with a restriction in range. Imagine if you were to give the GRE to a random sample of people and then measure their ability to do grad school work. The correlation would be very high. But people wanting to go to grad school are mostly pretty smart - restricted range. No correlation does not mean no importance of the traits being measured. Give the restricted range, I cannot think that any test, present or future, would be a good predictor. The tests are not flawed; the samples are. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu May 30 22:49:48 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:49:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] more mosquito news Message-ID: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2019/05/30/727884309/scientists-genetically-modify-fungus-to-kill-mosquitoes-that-spread-malaria -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu May 30 23:15:37 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 16:15:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <90ECB3B6-F51A-4837-B144-FF613CD3DEDD@gmail.com> On May 30, 2019, at 3:47 PM, William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > You may have read of graduate schools dropping the use of the Graduate Record Exam as a part of admission. > > While it is true that the correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure by the GRE is irrelevant to grad school work. > > I think was is going on, and always has gone on, is that you are dealing with a restriction in range. Imagine if you were to give the GRE to a random sample of people and then measure their ability to do grad school work. The correlation would be very high. But people wanting to go to grad school are mostly pretty smart - restricted range. > > No correlation does not mean no importance of the traits being measured. > > Give the restricted range, I cannot think that any test, present or future, would be a good predictor. The tests are not flawed; the samples are. I was going to ask, but then your last paragraph answered my question ? on whether you think there are other tests that better predict grad school performance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu May 30 23:46:13 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 16:46:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] gre >? correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure by the GRE is irrelevant?.But people wanting to go to grad school are mostly pretty smart - restricted range. bill w Billw, you made my day. There are far too few, tragically few, who understand restricted range effect. People who do not understand how that works are surprised at how little correlation there is between pro football linebacker salary and weight. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 31 02:11:01 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:11:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> References: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, after all, I did minor in statistics and psychometrics in grad school and taught it for many years. Unlike you, I have no idea how many people overlook or don't know about this concept. Why would they if they had not taken stat? bill w On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 6:49 PM wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > > *Subject:* [ExI] gre > > > > > > >? correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance > are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure > by the GRE is irrelevant?.But people wanting to go to grad school are > mostly pretty smart - restricted range. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Billw, you made my day. There are far too few, tragically few, who > understand restricted range effect. People who do not understand how that > works are surprised at how little correlation there is between pro football > linebacker salary and weight. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 31 02:26:05 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 19:26:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: References: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007c01d51758$33535d80$99fa1880$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 7:11 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] gre Well, after all, I did minor in statistics and psychometrics in grad school and taught it for many years. Unlike you, I have no idea how many people overlook or don't know about this concept. Why would they if they had not taken stat? bill w I worked at a big company for many years. In a big company with lotsa engineers, people tend to get known for things, and can specialize. My thing was mathematical modeling and statistics. I had to make pitches to management to help them with some (what I woulda thought was) basic understandings, such as correlation is not causation, and restricted-range effects, closely related pre-selection effects, stuff like that. Pre-selection is really big in graduate school applicants, because really almost all of those applicants are smart. They are already top students to even presume they have a chance of admissions. You really caught my attention with the post because I was a GRE champion. I have a fun story about that if you want it. spike On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 6:49 PM > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] gre >? correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure by the GRE is irrelevant?.But people wanting to go to grad school are mostly pretty smart - restricted range. bill w Billw, you made my day. There are far too few, tragically few, who understand restricted range effect. People who do not understand how that works are surprised at how little correlation there is between pro football linebacker salary and weight. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri May 31 06:51:17 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:51:17 +0200 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?I=E2=80=99ll_speak_at_TransVision_2019=2C_July_6?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=937_in_London?= Message-ID: I?ll speak at TransVision 2019, July 6?7 in London I?ll attend TransVision 2019 in London, July 6?7, and give a talk titled ?More things in heaven and earth, Gods by any other name.? https://turingchurch.net/ill-speak-at-transvision-2019-july-6-7-in-london-f033ea85377f From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 31 12:22:17 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 07:22:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: <007c01d51758$33535d80$99fa1880$@rainier66.com> References: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> <007c01d51758$33535d80$99fa1880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Always in the mood for a story. bill w On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 9:28 PM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > *Sent:* Thursday, May 30, 2019 7:11 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] gre > > > > Well, after all, I did minor in statistics and psychometrics in grad > school and taught it for many years. Unlike you, I have no idea how many > people overlook or don't know about this concept. Why would they if they > had not taken stat? > > > > bill w > > > > > > I worked at a big company for many years. In a big company with lotsa > engineers, people tend to get known for things, and can specialize. My > thing was mathematical modeling and statistics. I had to make pitches to > management to help them with some (what I woulda thought was) basic > understandings, such as correlation is not causation, and restricted-range > effects, closely related pre-selection effects, stuff like that. > > > > Pre-selection is really big in graduate school applicants, because really > almost all of those applicants are smart. They are already top students to > even presume they have a chance of admissions. > > > > You really caught my attention with the post because I was a GRE > champion. I have a fun story about that if you want it. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 6:49 PM wrote: > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > > *Subject:* [ExI] gre > > > > > > >? correlations between GRE performance and graduate school performance > are small (recent Science article), it does not mean that what is measure > by the GRE is irrelevant?.But people wanting to go to grad school are > mostly pretty smart - restricted range. > > > > bill w > > > > > > Billw, you made my day. There are far too few, tragically few, who > understand restricted range effect. People who do not understand how that > works are surprised at how little correlation there is between pro football > linebacker salary and weight. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri May 31 12:59:08 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:59:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Malaria Message-ID: There is an interesting article in today's issue of the Journal Science about a type of fungus called Metarhizium pingshaense. This fungus is very specialized, it makes its living by infecting just one species of mosquito, the Anopheline, which also happens to be the single most important carrier of Malaria. Over millions of years the mosquito has developed a resistance to the fungus so now it's just an inconvenience and is rarely fatal to the insect. So scientists used genetic engineering to put the gene that the that Funnel-Wed Spider uses to make its venom into the fungus, this vastly increases the fungus's fire power so it can now kill the bug even at very low concentrations. In a 6,500 square foot jungle enclosure they found that the fungus now killed more that 99% of the Anopheline mosquitos and even more important it killed nothing else. This report has just come out but already there are howls of protest. Some who say this technology shouldn't be used because genetic engineering is inherently evil. Others say is would be immoral to drive a species into extinction even if it's only an insect. The head of the Mother Earth Foundation said "Fighting malaria is something that everybody should do. But fighting malaria through genetic engineering is dangerous". I guess he things 400,000 people dying every year is not dangerous. Abstract: *Malaria control efforts require implementation of new technologies that manage insecticide resistance. Metarhizium pingshaenseprovides an effective, mosquito-specific delivery system for potent insect-selective toxins. A semifield trial in a MosquitoSphere (a contained, near-natural environment) in Soumousso, a region of Burkina Faso where malaria is endemic, confirmed that the expression of an insect-specific toxin (Hybrid) increased fungal lethality and the likelihood that insecticide-resistant mosquitoes would be eliminated from a site. Also, as Hybrid-expressing M. pingshaense is effective at very low spore doses, its efficacy lasted longer than that of the unmodified Metarhizium. Deployment of transgenic Metarhizium against mosquitoes could (subject to appropriate registration) be rapid, with products that could synergistically integrate with existing chemical control strategies to avert insecticide resistance.* Transgenic Metarhizium rapidly kills mosquitoes in a malaria-endemic region of Burkina Faso John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri May 31 13:23:22 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 06:23:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: References: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> <007c01d51758$33535d80$99fa1880$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d517b4$05450860$0fcf1920$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] gre Always in the mood for a story. bill w Isn?t much of a story, but your comment on correlations reminded me of it. The dean of my engineering school took all the GRE scores from our class and the two previous graduating classes, and plotted them with GRE scores on the vertical and GPA on the horizontal. He had all the engineering graduates in there, looking for any signal, such as subspecialty (electrical, mechanical, civil vs GRE), wanted to know the correlation coefficient between GRE and GPA, that sorta thing. My roommate was a super-disciplined straight A sort of guy. His homework was always perfect, by the book, procedural, step by step algorithmic. He earned a PhD from Purdue and is a professor of engineering where we went to college. My college experience was way different from his. My approach was a lot more open-ended, experimental, concepty rather than algorithmy, emphasizing inventiveness and alternate approaches and such, a lonely ENTP in a world more suited to ISFJs, the kind of approach you would expect from an oddball who dreams up toilet snake warning devices you can trigger remotely if you don?t mind having to scrape your brother-in-law off the damn bathroom ceiling, that sorta thing. One day the dean called me over, Jones see me in my office please. He had plotted the GPA vs GRE and had the kinda football shaped scatter one might expect. The first thing that surprised me was that there was a clear correlation, but a bit less than I expected. There were two odd outliers from those 300-ish points that would immediately catch one?s eye. We already had our scores back, so I knew I had scorched that test, whacked it outta the park. But my GPA was tepid, middle of the pack-ish. He showed me that graph and pointed at one of the two outliers, and asked: Do you know who this is? Me: hmmmmmm? that would be? me? Why that slacker? He gently inquired as to why my score wasn?t way over to the right on that curve. I had no good answer. That was in the days when one couldn?t just claim to suck. The term had a different meaning back then. The other odd outlier was my roommate, whose GPA was 4.0. But his GRE score wasn?t even in the top 30. He had the only 4.0 in those three graduating classes, and did really well in the engineering section, but overall was just good, perhaps 80-ish percentile. His point and mine were outliers on that graph. In any case? he went on to a PhD and has been a college professor ever since. I went on to a career in aerospace engineering, retired at age 49 to be a fulltime parent and community volunteer. I am still in regular contact with him. He came to stay with me last year and show his son the Tesla factory. He?s still smart as a whip, still methodical and structured, organized, efficient. I?m still dreaming up goofy weird inventions and suggesting we go into business to make a ton of money. Neither of us have changed all that much, just grown older. We have both had a great life. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 31 13:45:15 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:45:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gre In-Reply-To: <007901d517b4$05450860$0fcf1920$@rainier66.com> References: <01ad01d51741$de28da30$9a7a8e90$@rainier66.com> <007c01d51758$33535d80$99fa1880$@rainier66.com> <007901d517b4$05450860$0fcf1920$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If you think about it, both the GRE and GPA are restricted range variables. Who makes below a B in grad school? Don't know about engineering school, though. My own GRE scores were interesting: an 89 on verbal was a shock. I expected far higher. I had been in honors 101, had a degree in English, etc. The math part was also a shock. I had had only algebra in college and made a 97. I was bragging about it to my bridge partner when he grinned and said he made a 99, which, as you know (?), is a lot better than a 97. He was a math major. I had a student from Japan, where once you declare a major you can't change it. He was a police officer. So how he came to a little college in Alabama I dunno. In his early 30s I think. Best student any of us had ever had. Went on to get a Ph. D. in child psych. Unfortunately, he said, he would never be accepted to teach at Tokyo University or any other big time school there because of where he got his degree. U of Alabama. But the story: with Japanese as his first language, and as difficult as English is to learn, he made a score in the 50s on the verbal GRE. The most impressive intellectual performance I have witnessed. bill w On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 8:26 AM wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] gre > > > > Always in the mood for a story. bill w > > > > > > > > Isn?t much of a story, but your comment on correlations reminded me of > it. > > > > The dean of my engineering school took all the GRE scores from our class > and the two previous graduating classes, and plotted them with GRE scores > on the vertical and GPA on the horizontal. He had all the engineering > graduates in there, looking for any signal, such as subspecialty > (electrical, mechanical, civil vs GRE), wanted to know the correlation > coefficient between GRE and GPA, that sorta thing. > > > > My roommate was a super-disciplined straight A sort of guy. His homework > was always perfect, by the book, procedural, step by step algorithmic. He > earned a PhD from Purdue and is a professor of engineering where we went to > college. My college experience was way different from his. My approach > was a lot more open-ended, experimental, concepty rather than algorithmy, > emphasizing inventiveness and alternate approaches and such, a lonely ENTP > in a world more suited to ISFJs, the kind of approach you would expect from > an oddball who dreams up toilet snake warning devices you can trigger > remotely if you don?t mind having to scrape your brother-in-law off the > damn bathroom ceiling, that sorta thing. > > > > One day the dean called me over, Jones see me in my office please. He had > plotted the GPA vs GRE and had the kinda football shaped scatter one might > expect. The first thing that surprised me was that there was a clear > correlation, but a bit less than I expected. There were two odd outliers > from those 300-ish points that would immediately catch one?s eye. > > > > We already had our scores back, so I knew I had scorched that test, > whacked it outta the park. But my GPA was tepid, middle of the pack-ish. > He showed me that graph and pointed at one of the two outliers, and asked: > Do you know who this is? Me: hmmmmmm? that would be? me? Why that > slacker? > > > > He gently inquired as to why my score wasn?t way over to the right on that > curve. I had no good answer. That was in the days when one couldn?t just > claim to suck. The term had a different meaning back then. > > > > The other odd outlier was my roommate, whose GPA was 4.0. But his GRE > score wasn?t even in the top 30. He had the only 4.0 in those three > graduating classes, and did really well in the engineering section, but > overall was just good, perhaps 80-ish percentile. His point and mine were > outliers on that graph. > > > > In any case? he went on to a PhD and has been a college professor ever > since. I went on to a career in aerospace engineering, retired at age 49 > to be a fulltime parent and community volunteer. I am still in regular > contact with him. He came to stay with me last year and show his son the > Tesla factory. He?s still smart as a whip, still methodical and > structured, organized, efficient. I?m still dreaming up goofy weird > inventions and suggesting we go into business to make a ton of money. > Neither of us have changed all that much, just grown older. We have both > had a great life. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri May 31 17:47:09 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 12:47:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] instinct Message-ID: I joined this list too late to get in the discussion of the Rational Optimist, by Matt Ridley. I am re-reading it now and have a big problem with him. So, if you would be so kind, please take a moment and give my your definition of the word 'instinct'. Precise or vague does not matter. I just want to know your everyday understanding of the term, after which I will share my thoughts on the matter. Bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: