From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 6 20:45:13 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 13:45:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! Message-ID: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> Changes coming. Good ones. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 04:35:47 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:35:47 +0200 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: ??? On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 6:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > > Changes coming. Good ones. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 04:41:09 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:41:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: References: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000001d57cc9$70b553a0$521ffae0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack! >...??? !!! We are hoping to fix the problem which has caused us to be intermittent for the past coupla years at least. We managed to find David McFadzean, who is working that problem, that fine lad. spike On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 6:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > >>... Changes coming. Good ones. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 04:58:42 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 21:58:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: <000001d57cc9$70b553a0$521ffae0$@rainier66.com> References: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> <000001d57cc9$70b553a0$521ffae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 9:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >...??? > > !!! > ...---??? -... ..- - -. --- - ... --- ... ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 05:12:51 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 22:12:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: References: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> <000001d57cc9$70b553a0$521ffae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004601d57ccd$de895620$9b9c0260$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2019 9:59 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack! On Sun, Oct 6, 2019 at 9:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >...??? !!! ...---??? -... ..- - -. --- - ... --- ... ;) -. --- --..-- .-- . .- .-. . .-. . .- .-.. .-.. -.-- -... .- -.-. -.- - .... .. ... - .. -- . .-.-.- .-- . .... --- .--. . .-.-.- {8-] spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Oct 4 18:31:01 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:31:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? Message-ID: Is the list dead again or have I been unsubbed? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Oct 5 10:37:27 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 18:37:27 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? Message-ID: "Today, however, such a deployment would no longer elicit the same response in a potential adversary. In part, the change reflects the closing of the enormous technological advantage the U.S. Navy had enjoyed for decades over any realistic rival. New classes of quiet diesel submarines and new developments in mine and torpedo technology make operations close to tense coastlines far more dangerous today than in the past. As a result, U.S. aircraft carriers are no longer immune from risk when entering waters within range of enemy forces." ?In today?s Navy, the aircraft carrier has become ?too big to sink,?? wrote Navy Lt. Jeff Vandenengel, a submariner, in a provocative article in the U.S. Naval Institute?s journal *Proceedings* two years ago. ?Yet the Navy remains blind to the reality that its carriers?by way of destruction, damage, or deterrence from completing their missions?are poised for defeat in battle.? As the technological edge the U.S. has with it's military, continues to slip, what should America do to maintain the advantage? If Iran, a second or third tier rival, is a problem for us, how do we prepare for a possible conflict with a resurgent China? Do we improve the range and stealth capacity of our anti-ship missiles? Build more advanced drones for destroying enemy aircraft, missiles, aquatic mines and subs? Create a new form of stealth tech, should China's "quantum radar" prove to be effective? Install laser weapons on all our larger vessels, to stop hordes of incoming planes and missiles? Build more destroyers, to lessen the urgent need to use our carriers? Deploy massive rail guns for very long range bombardments (which could be nice for leveling artificial islands in the South China Sea)? Have a 21st century return to the battleship, through this technology? Oh, and what about improving private corporate security measures, so our research and development efforts are not stolen by China's very effective espionage machine? I have a Russian "frenemy" online, who would mock me by saying the problem with the American military industrial complex, is that it throws huge amounts of money at various weapons programs, but the private companies who take up the contracts, are not fully held accountable. And so after a vast budget is spent, they may not have any real solid results, to show for it. China's "president for life," wishes to see his country essentially be the world's foremost superpower, by 2049, which will be the 100th anniversary of the regime. I suspect by then China will have attempted an invasion of Taiwan, which within a decade or two, would be very difficult for the U.S. and her allies to resist, due to their arms build-up. The PRC is deploying a vast sensor array at the bottom of the ocean, around Taiwan, to detect enemy subs. And drone torpedoes would make those waters extremely hostile for American and alliance subs and surface ships... China has built bunkers on their coastline, armed with literally thousands of anti-ship missiles, to overcome the defenses of incoming American carrier task forces. The PRC understands that unless they have air and sea domination, that their vulnerable invasion force of naval transports, crammed with troops and tanks, will be slaughtered, causing a huge humiliation to the regime. But we would be fighting them in their own frontyard, which gives them a huge homefield advantage. And then their longterm plan (as explained in leaked war college documents) is to use a captured Taiwan as a chokehold over the ocean trade routes of Japan. Our greatest ally in the region at that point, could be brought to their knees by a PRC naval blockade. I think a takeover of Taiwan, by the PRC is inevitable, but it may be decades until it can be achieved. And China may wish to patiently bully them into submission, rather than risk so much, by an invasion. But then again, a successful invasion of Taiwan would shout to the world that China had finally arrived as an undisputed superpower, that even the United States, with her allies, could not stop. What are your thoughts? https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/30/the-u-s-navy-isnt-ready-to-take-on-iran/?utm_source=PostUp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=15284&utm_term=Editor#39;s%20Picks%20OC John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 07:23:45 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:23:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Still going! On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 7:25 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is the list dead again or have I been unsubbed? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From atymes at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 07:45:05 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 00:45:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Before China can win the battle of Taiwan, it must first win the battle of Hong Kong, which is currently underway. On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 12:04 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Today, however, such a deployment would no longer elicit the same > response in a potential adversary. In part, the change reflects the closing > of the enormous technological advantage the U.S. Navy had enjoyed for > decades over any realistic rival. New classes of quiet diesel submarines > and new developments in mine and torpedo technology make operations close > to tense coastlines far more dangerous today than in the past. As a result, > U.S. aircraft carriers are no longer immune from risk when entering waters > within range of enemy forces." > > ?In today?s Navy, the aircraft carrier has become ?too big to sink,?? > wrote Navy Lt. Jeff Vandenengel, a submariner, in a provocative article > in the > U.S. Naval Institute?s journal *Proceedings* two years ago. ?Yet the Navy > remains blind to the reality that its carriers?by way of destruction, > damage, or deterrence from completing their missions?are poised for defeat > in battle.? > > As the technological edge the U.S. has with it's military, continues to > slip, what should America do to maintain the advantage? If Iran, a second > or third tier rival, is a problem for us, how do we prepare for a possible > conflict with a resurgent China? Do we improve the range and stealth > capacity of our anti-ship missiles? Build more advanced drones for > destroying enemy aircraft, missiles, aquatic mines and subs? Create a new > form of stealth tech, should China's "quantum radar" prove to be effective? > Install laser weapons on all our larger vessels, to stop hordes of incoming > planes and missiles? Build more destroyers, to lessen the urgent need to > use our carriers? Deploy massive rail guns for very long range bombardments > (which could be nice for leveling artificial islands in the South China > Sea)? Have a 21st century return to the battleship, through this > technology? Oh, and what about improving private corporate security > measures, so our research and development efforts are not stolen by China's > very effective espionage machine? > > I have a Russian "frenemy" online, who would mock me by saying the problem > with the American military industrial complex, is that it throws huge > amounts of money at various weapons programs, but the private companies who > take up the contracts, are not fully held accountable. And so after a vast > budget is spent, they may not have any real solid results, to show for it. > > > China's "president for life," wishes to see his country essentially be the > world's foremost superpower, by 2049, which will be the 100th anniversary > of the regime. I suspect by then China will have attempted an invasion of > Taiwan, which within a decade or two, would be very difficult for the U.S. > and her allies to resist, due to their arms build-up. The PRC is deploying > a vast sensor array at the bottom of the ocean, around Taiwan, to detect > enemy subs. And drone torpedoes would make those waters extremely hostile > for American and alliance subs and surface ships... China has built bunkers > on their coastline, armed with literally thousands of anti-ship missiles, > to overcome the defenses of incoming American carrier task forces. > > The PRC understands that unless they have air and sea domination, that > their vulnerable invasion force of naval transports, crammed with troops > and tanks, will be slaughtered, causing a huge humiliation to the regime. > But we would be fighting them in their own frontyard, which gives them a > huge homefield advantage. > > And then their longterm plan (as explained in leaked war college > documents) is to use a captured Taiwan as a chokehold over the ocean trade > routes of Japan. Our greatest ally in the region at that point, could be > brought to their knees by a PRC naval blockade. > > I think a takeover of Taiwan, by the PRC is inevitable, but it may be > decades until it can be achieved. And China may wish to patiently bully > them into submission, rather than risk so much, by an invasion. But then > again, a successful invasion of Taiwan would shout to the world that China > had finally arrived as an undisputed superpower, that even the United > States, with her allies, could not stop. > > What are your thoughts? > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-with-china/ > > > https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/09/30/the-u-s-navy-isnt-ready-to-take-on-iran/?utm_source=PostUp&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=15284&utm_term=Editor#39;s%20Picks%20OC > > John > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Oct 6 03:12:37 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 23:12:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Crickets? Message-ID: Anybody there? -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 11:52:58 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:52:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy Message-ID: Wow, I'm glad the list is back, at least for now. I tried to send the first part of this a few weeks ago but no joy, and then there were even more exciting developments. == There is a excellent FAQ by Quantum Computer expert Scott Aaronson about the Google claim of Quantum Supremacy. Aaronson is noted for throwing cold water over claims of a breakthrough in his field, but not this time! Aaronson is clearly excited, he compares Google's Quantum Computer to the Wright brothers 1903 flyer or Enrico Fermi's 1942 pile, the world's first nuclear reactor: Scott?s Supreme Quantum Supremacy FAQ! == Here is a copy of that leaked paper: Quantum Supremacy Using a Programmable Superconducting Processor I found these quotes from it to be particularly interesting: *"We show that quantum speedup is achievable in a real-world system and isnot precluded by any hidden physical laws." * *"Our processor takes about 200 seconds to sample one instance of the quantum circuit 1 million times, a state-of-the-art supercomputer would require approximately 10,000 years to perform the equivalent task."* *"Quantum processors based on superconducting qubits can now perform computations in a Hilbert space of dimension 2^53 ? 9 ? 10^15, beyond the reach of the fastest classical supercomputers available today. To our knowledge, this experiment marks the first computation that can only be performed on a quantum processor."* *"Quantum processors have thus reached the regime of quantum supremacy. We expect their computational power will continue to grow at a double exponential rate"* For me the most stunning thing about the entire article is the 3 words "double exponential rate" == And in a completely different development there is yet more quantum computing news that happened when the list was dead. For the first time a fully controllable ten-qubit spin register with a quantum memory of 75 seconds has been developed. And they managed to achieve this without using any error correcting at all which the researchers believe is the next step; they conclude their article in the September 11 2019 Physical review with: "*our multiqubit register paves the way for the realization of rudimentary few-node quantum networks comprising tens of qubits. This will enable the investigation of basic error correction codes and algorithms over quantum networks*". A Ten-Qubit Solid-State Spin Register with Quantum Memory Over One Minute == And if you want to know who coined the term "Quantum Supremacy and why look here: Why I Called It ?Quantum Supremacy? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 11:54:41 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 07:54:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Still going!* > But for how long? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 13:13:42 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:13:42 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: a light in the wilderness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: William Flynn Wallace Date: Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 1:05 PM Subject: a light in the wilderness To: ExI chat list Where is the writing of today that can compare to this? How modern are these thoughts? Who does it make you think of? 'The outlines came because a million voices called for them. Human knowledge had become unmanageably vast; every science had begotten a dozen more, each subtler than the rest; the telescope revealed stars and systems beyond the mind of man to number or to name; geology spoke in terms of millions of year, where men before had thought in terms of thousands; physics found a universe in the atom, and biology found a microcosm in the cell; physiology discovered inexhaustible mystery in every organ, and psychology in every dream; anthropology reconstructed the unsuspected antiquity of man, archeology unearthed buried cities and forgotten states; history proved all history false, and painted a canvas only a Spengler or an Eduard Meyer could vision as a whole; theology crumbled, and political theory cracked; invention complicated life, and war, and economic creeds overturned governments and inflamed the world; philosophy itself, which had once summoned all science to its aid in making a coherent image of the world and an alluring picture of the good, found its task of coordination too stupendous for its courage, ran away from all these battle fronts of truth, and hid itself in recondite and narrow lanes, timidly secure from the issues and responsibilities of life. Human knowledge had become too great for the human mind. All that remained was the scientific specialist, who knew "more and more about less and less", and the philosophical speculator, who knew "less and less about more and more". The specialist put on blinders in order to shut out from his vision all the world but one little spot, to which he glued his nose. Perspective was lost. "Facts" replaced understanding; and knowledge, split into a thousand isolated fragments, no longer generated wisdom. Every science, and every branch of philosophy, developed a technical terminology intelligible only to its exclusive devotees; as men learned more about the world, they found themselves ever less capable of expressing to their educated fellow-men what it was that they had learned. The gap between life and knowledge grew wider and wider; those who governed could not understand those who thought, and those who wanted to know could not understand those who knew. In the midst of unprecedented learning popular ignorance flourished, and chose it exemplars to rule the great cities of the world; in the midst of sciences endowed and enthroned as never before, new religions were born every day, and old superstitions recaptured the ground they had lost. The common man found himself forced to choose between a scientific priesthood mumbling unintelligible pessimism, and a theological priesthood mumbling incredible hopes. In this situation the function of the professional teacher was clear. It should have been to mediate between the specialist and the nation; to learn the specialist's language, as the specialist had learned nature's, in order to break down the barriers between knowledge and need, and find for new truths old terms that all literate people might understand. For if knowledge became too great for communication, it would degenerate into scholasticism, and the weak acceptance of authority; mankind would slip into a new age of faith, worshiping at a respectful distance its new priests; and civilization, which had hoped to raise itself upon education disseminated far and wide, would be left precariously based upon a technical erudition that had become the monopoly of an esoteric class monastically isolated from the world by the high birth rate of terminology." Written nearly one hundred years ago by: Will Durant - from the introduction to the second edition of The Story of Philosophy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 13:15:17 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:15:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: free the nipple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: William Flynn Wallace Date: Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Subject: free the nipple To: ExI chat list >From The Week: "Good week for equality, after Fort Collins, Colo., formally repealed its ban on women going topless. The victory for the nationwide "Free the nipple" movement follows a federal appeals court ruling that the ban reinforced 'negative stereotypes depicting women's breasts, but not men's breasts, as sex objects.'" Negative? Next step - ban on ogling. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 14:58:27 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:58:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] transhumanist implants Message-ID: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-49893869 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 15:02:16 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:02:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d57d20$362afcb0$a280f610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? >?Is the list dead again or have I been unsubbed? Neither: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FxZwZ31vNc spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 15:05:04 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:05:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Crickets? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005a01d57d20$9a1572a0$ce4057e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Crickets? Anybody there? -- Rafal Smigrodzki, MD-PhD Schuyler Biotech PLLC Everybody?s here. Working the problem that keeps messing up everybody. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 15:06:00 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:06:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Is thing thing on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006101d57d20$bb922400$32b66c00$@rainier66.com> Working that. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 4:55 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Is thing thing on? On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > wrote: > Still going! But for how long? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Oct 7 15:30:51 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 08:30:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] It stuff, only distantly related to billw's post: RE: : a light in the wilderness Message-ID: <008001d57d24$343a5370$9caefa50$@rainier66.com> ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: William Flynn Wallace > To: ExI chat list > >?Where is the writing of today that can compare to this? How modern are these thoughts? Who does it make you think of? >?'The outlines came because a million voices called for them. Human knowledge had become unmanageably vast; every science had begotten a dozen more, each subtler than the rest; the telescope revealed stars and systems beyond the mind of man to number or to name; geology spoke in terms of millions of year? would be left precariously based upon a technical erudition that had become the monopoly of an esoteric class monastically isolated from the world by the high birth rate of terminology." >?Written nearly one hundred years ago by: Will Durant - from the introduction to the second edition of The Story of Philosophy The recent go-around with our list, the arcane details of modern information technology, really got me to pondering this. Durant?s essay carries a kind of unspoken expectation or remembrance of a time when a really smart person with plenty of leisure could master most of humanity?s disciplines. This slipped away, and is still going, for our society with its multiple (and quickly multiplying) subsets of knowledge forces us to suck. We all must suck at most areas of human knowledge. My own well-known area is IT. I suck at IT. I am so dumb at that, I would be embarrassed if I were not so dumb in that to know the depth, the height and breadth of my vast ignorance. But I flatly refuse to study that topic, for it appears to me a perishable skill. I was an assistant sys-admin on a mainframe in college (tragically many decades ago) but none of that knowledge is applicable today. On the other hand, at that same time I was studying differential equations and control theory, none of which is changed. Much of control theory is digital now, but the underlying principles are all the same. I choose to focus my limited learning ability on that which is with us forever, which is why I am so turned on by all the cool new stuff we are learning from LIGO and the other gravity telescopes (oh what a glorious time to be alive for those of us who are into that kinda thing.) Result: if you need someone to fix your satellite guidance system, call me. If you need someone to fix your internet service, call? David McFadzean. Remember that guy? He was at Extro 4 or 5 as I recall, came over to my house for a big blowout party afterwards, we had a blast. Hell of a good lad, one of the ones from back in the 90s. He was the one who fixed whatever that problems was (no point in trying to explain it to me (my simplified view is that I paid for the domain and it worked for a few weeks then conked again (then David fixed it (now we are alive again.)))) If we are nice to him, he may guide us to a better IT solution. In the meantime, if we have any actual IT hipsters willing to work with him, do let him know. I included him on the cc. Do jump on the opportunity to be nice to him and invite him to find a way we can keep this an email-only list (which has its advantages) but somehow make it reliable. If we need to register Extropy on another whatever one does that on, I am willing to pay for it (for Max has honored me to be the temporary custodian of Extropy until he is free (no not from prison dammit (free from more pressing obligations at Alcor (we want a good man to focus on that while we? (David and the IT hipsters) work this other (hey now there?s a name for a group: David and the IT Hipsters (it?s even better than LIGO and the Gravity Telescopes.))))))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Oct 7 16:32:03 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:32:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Twenty more moons found around Saturn Message-ID: <5234F1EA-76B8-41C7-A269-6CF11286BE32@gmail.com> https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/07/world/saturn-20-new-moons-scn/index.html Good to see the list up and operating again! Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 16:59:32 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 12:59:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:04 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > As the technological edge the U.S. has with it's military, continues to > slip, what should America do to maintain the advantage? > The US government and military/industrial complex are so broken I don't think anything short of rebuilding from scratch will work...and that's both highly unlikely to happen and extremely unlikely to work. We've spent obscene amounts on defense but haven't won a war in decades. We've got hundreds of military bases around the world. We kill more innocents than "combatents". We've become the evil empire. > If Iran, a second or third tier rival, is a problem for us, > They're not a threat. That's BS intended to scare us into spending more on defense and giving up more liberties. > how do we prepare for a possible conflict with a resurgent China? > We stand no chance against China if comes to war. > Do we improve the range and stealth capacity of our anti-ship missiles? > Build more advanced drones for destroying enemy aircraft, missiles, aquatic > mines and subs? Create a new form of stealth tech, should China's "quantum > radar" prove to be effective? Install laser weapons on all our larger > vessels, to stop hordes of incoming planes and missiles? Build more > destroyers, to lessen the urgent need to use our carriers? Deploy massive > rail guns for very long range bombardments (which could be nice for > leveling artificial islands in the South China Sea)? Have a 21st century > return to the battleship, through this technology? Oh, and what about > improving private corporate security measures, so our research and > development efforts are not stolen by China's very effective espionage > machine? > In a tech war, China will win, too. I have a Russian "frenemy" online, who would mock me by saying the problem > with the American military industrial complex, is that it throws huge > amounts of money at various weapons programs, but the private companies who > take up the contracts, are not fully held accountable. And so after a vast > budget is spent, they may not have any real solid results, to show for it. > He's right. What are your thoughts? > We're fucked, and, unfortunately, we deserve it. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 18:23:07 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:23:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 1:03 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> We stand no chance against China if comes to war.* True, but China would also have no chance against the USA if it comes to war. *> We're fucked,* Not necessarily, the entire human race is fucked if 2 superpowers go to war but if both sides have leadership that is competent and intelligent then..., .....OK,....you're right,...we're fucked. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 22:08:54 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 15:08:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE Message-ID: https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-news/transhumanism-where-physical-and-digital-worlds-meld It's a bit weird to see my professional organization getting into this. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 8 23:05:06 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 16:05:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-institute/ieee-news/transhumanism-where-physic al-and-digital-worlds-meld It's a bit weird to see my professional organization getting into this. Keith _______________________________________________ It's downright creepy I tells ya! It's just wrong. IEEE even mentioning transhumanism is something I never woulda thought I would live to see. It's uncomfortable, it makes me squirm. I suddenly feel so... mainstream. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 8 23:26:23 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 18:26:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] updated weiner wagon!! Message-ID: I know all of you have been drooling for this - enjoy! https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/10/08/warren-buffetts-favorite-high-yield-dividend-stock.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 01:03:29 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 21:03:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE In-Reply-To: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 7:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > It's downright creepy I tells ya! It's just wrong. IEEE even mentioning > transhumanism is something I never woulda thought I would live to see. > It's > uncomfortable, it makes me squirm. I suddenly feel so... mainstream. > > ### I have been thinking on this subject recently (again). I am on record predicting the Dark Singularity on September 14, 2029: https://triviallyso.blogspot.com/2009/07/end-is-near.html but in the last 10 years I came closer to Robin's position, being less worried (but not worry-free) about the UFAI. One reason for this evolution in my views is that it seems like intelligence is a bit more granular than it seemed before. It is possible to achieve vastly superhuman results in an increasing number of domains, without creating a system capable of surviving on its own. These limited AI systems are built by multiple teams and the resulting capabilities are relatively widely spread, rather than concentrated. The limited superhuman AIs (LiSAI) does rewrite some aspects of its programming but overall its ability to create new goals is low. It's useful to remember that goal-oriented action in the real world relies on a number of disparate modules kludged together by evolution, and this includes a large array of perception, motivation, reasoning and effector subsystems. A dangerous AI would need to have these modules working at superhuman level separately and jointly, smoothly enough not to break itself in a trivial fashion, before its malfunctioning non-human-aligned goal system could lead it to accidentally overgrow and break the world. This kind of non-brittle real-world multi-faceted highly intelligent performance is likely to be built gradually by multiple independent teams, as Robin predicted a long time ago. At the same time I would expect that we would develop and have wide access to LISAI specifically designed to counter narrow threats, such as hostile takeover of computing resources. The sysadmins of 2029 will have vastly superhuman detection and management tools at their disposal, augmenting their ability to prevent rogue attacks on their systems, designed to defend against increasingly sophisticated cyberattacks from governments and other hackers, essentially honing their strength in an ongoing low-level computational war. I would also expect that the teams developing general AI would be forced to develop a much better understanding of goal systems in general, simply to avoid trivial failures. MIRI seems to be trying to develop a high-level theoretical understanding of goal systems, which is very laudable, but there will be a lot of specific technical applied research needed before something that doesn't quickly shoot itself in the foot is created. This means that the right from the start the potentially dangerous AI would be surrounded by a much more sophisticated ecosystem of diagnostic tools and general understanding of goal systems than exists today. TL:DR - By 2029, we might have potentially dangerous AI but its ability to wreak havoc will be limited by our improved defenses and its creators will be much better at taming AIs in general than we are now. This is not to discount the dangers of AI, including existential dangers. I think that as far as existential dangers go, UFAI is still the 800 lb monster ahead of the pack, with bio-engineered plagues a distal second, and asteroids, aliens and other apocalypses relegated to the footnotes. But, it's less scary to me than it was 25 years ago, now at the level of nuclear all-out war rather than the grey goo meltdown. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Oct 9 01:20:46 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 18:20:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20191008182046.Horde.Jlj1MPs100VDVCcxkEiQk93@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Grigg: > "Today, however, such a deployment would no longer elicit the same > response in a potential adversary. In part, the change reflects the closing > of the enormous technological advantage the U.S. Navy had enjoyed for > decades over any realistic rival. New classes of quiet diesel submarines > and new developments in mine and torpedo technology make operations close > to tense coastlines far more dangerous today than in the past. As a result, > U.S. aircraft carriers are no longer immune from risk when entering waters > within range of enemy forces." It's the nature of the Red Queen's Race that all advantage is necessarily fleeting. It's gonna take some running to maintain the status quo. Of course "One nation to rule them all" might not be a status quo worth maintaining. I think our foreign policy would benefit from a little "live and let live" right now. Especially for those conflicts to which neither party has invited our intercession. We need to take a good long look at what the U.S. sees it's role in the world being in the 21st century. I mean why do we still want to be some kind of old world hegemon in a new connected global market? Or do we want to simply take our place amongst the powers of the world, be free, and make money shooting for the stars? > ?In today?s Navy, the aircraft carrier has become ?too big to sink,?? wrote > Navy Lt. Jeff Vandenengel, a submariner, in a provocative article > in the > U.S. Naval Institute?s journal *Proceedings* two years ago. ?Yet the Navy > remains blind to the reality that its carriers?by way of destruction, > damage, or deterrence from completing their missions?are poised for defeat > in battle.? Well you know what they say about generals always fighting the last war. I suppose it applies to admirals too. Smart fleet commanders would deploy destroyers and cruisers with anti-missile weapons like lasers and our awesome new rail guns in a moving perimeter around the carrier. That would allow the carriers themselves closer inland within range of their strike craft. A million dollar Chinese missile taken out by a fifty dollar aluminum slug? I like those odds. > As the technological edge the U.S. has with it's military, continues to > slip, what should America do to maintain the advantage? If Iran, a second > or third tier rival, is a problem for us, how do we prepare for a possible > conflict with a resurgent China? Firstly, in war there is no opponent so much weaker than oneself as to not be taken deadly seriously. Many a lion is fatally gored or kicked to death by what it presumes to be its lunch. War makes or breaks the destiny of nations and their fortunes can pivot on the most trivial of events in the heat of battle. > Do we improve the range and stealth > capacity of our anti-ship missiles? Build more advanced drones for > destroying enemy aircraft, missiles, aquatic mines and subs? Create a new > form of stealth tech, should China's "quantum radar" prove to be effective? > Install laser weapons on all our larger vessels, to stop hordes of incoming > planes and missiles? Build more destroyers, to lessen the urgent need to > use our carriers? Deploy massive rail guns for very long range bombardments > (which could be nice for leveling artificial islands in the South China > Sea)? Have a 21st century return to the battleship, through this > technology? Oh, and what about improving private corporate security > measures, so our research and development efforts are not stolen by China's > very effective espionage machine? Lol. The first step to preventing China from stealing all of our high-technology is to stop having all of it manufactured in China. Espionage ought to be harder than calling the guys who run Foxconn the Chinese company that makes i-phones for Apple and asking for schematics. Is it in either U.S. or China's interest to go to war? Why hurt your best customer? > I have a Russian "frenemy" online, who would mock me by saying the problem > with the American military industrial complex, is that it throws huge > amounts of money at various weapons programs, but the private companies who > take up the contracts, are not fully held accountable. And so after a vast > budget is spent, they may not have any real solid results, to show for it. Not having anything to show for it is the nature of R&D. If the government isn't willing to risk their money on it, who would? R&D is actually one of the most benign aspects of military-industrial-media complex. Most of the complex is a voracious monster that needs to kept caged and sedated only to be released in extremis. > China's "president for life," wishes to see his country essentially be the > world's foremost superpower, by 2049, which will be the 100th anniversary > of the regime. I suspect by then China will have attempted an invasion of > Taiwan, which within a decade or two, would be very difficult for the U.S. > and her allies to resist, due to their arms build-up. The PRC is deploying > a vast sensor array at the bottom of the ocean, around Taiwan, to detect > enemy subs. And drone torpedoes would make those waters extremely hostile > for American and alliance subs and surface ships... China has built bunkers > on their coastline, armed with literally thousands of anti-ship missiles, > to overcome the defenses of incoming American carrier task forces. > > The PRC understands that unless they have air and sea domination, that > their vulnerable invasion force of naval transports, crammed with troops > and tanks, will be slaughtered, causing a huge humiliation to the regime. > But we would be fighting them in their own frontyard, which gives them a > huge homefield advantage. > > And then their longterm plan (as explained in leaked war college documents) > is to use a captured Taiwan as a chokehold over the ocean trade routes of > Japan. Our greatest ally in the region at that point, could be brought to > their knees by a PRC naval blockade. > > I think a takeover of Taiwan, by the PRC is inevitable, but it may be > decades until it can be achieved. And China may wish to patiently bully > them into submission, rather than risk so much, by an invasion. But then > again, a successful invasion of Taiwan would shout to the world that China > had finally arrived as an undisputed superpower, that even the United > States, with her allies, could not stop. > > What are your thoughts? If we are seriously thinking of a showdown with China over Taiwan, then we need to start playing our technological cards closer to our chest. As the sources you have cited have made clear, right now the technological edge lies with area denial instead of force projection. We would be fighting a defensive war on Taiwan, which means that we can play the area denial game to great effect. They are the ones who are going to have to put their troop carriers at risk to cross a hundred mile wide kill zone while we sit back and rain fire on on them. In my opinion, it will come down to who has the better commanders, but if it were to happen today, we would have the advantage. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 05:48:55 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 22:48:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE In-Reply-To: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 4:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I suddenly feel so... mainstream. > It can be a good feeling, once one gets used to it, for things one has long wanted the mainstream to accept. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 15:08:36 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 11:08:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: <20191008182046.Horde.Jlj1MPs100VDVCcxkEiQk93@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20191008182046.Horde.Jlj1MPs100VDVCcxkEiQk93@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 9:23 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Not having anything to show for it is the nature of R&D. No. Research is iffy, but development is generally expected to yield a product. If the government isn't willing to risk their money on it, who would? Industry, of course. R&D is actually one of the most benign aspects of > military-industrial-media > complex. I don't think anyone's complaining about research. Even development, in the worst case, like the F-22, is just a big waste of money. There are far bigger problems with the MIC than that. > Most of the complex is a voracious monster that needs to kept > caged and sedated only to be released in extremis. > Which, unfortunately, we're not doing. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Oct 9 18:23:43 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:23:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Transhumanism at the IEEE In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d57e2c$d3f690f0$7be3b2d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 9:06 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> One reason for this evolution in my views is that it seems like > intelligence is a bit more granular than it seemed before. It is possible > to achieve vastly superhuman results in an increasing number of domains, > without creating a system capable of surviving on its own. * The fact there already exists one program that can start from knowing nothing but the basic rules and in just a few days teach itself to play games as different as Checkers, Chess, Go and Shogi at a superhuman level would seem to indicate we are well on our way toward developing a AI that is neither brittle or specialized. *> The limited superhuman AIs (LiSAI) does rewrite some aspects of its > programming but overall its ability to create new goals is low.* [...] *it's > less scary to me than it was 25 years ago, now at the level of nuclear > all-out war rather than the grey goo meltdown.* If you're worried about a grey goo meltdown or a AI doing things that are obviously stupid like dismantling the Solar System so it can use the material to make more thumb tacks then the last thing in the world you'd want to do is give it a rigid goal structure, you'd want it to have the ability to modify goals when conditions demand it just as people do. Does giving a AI that freedom mean we may not always be able to tell it what to do? Yes. There is no way to be certain the AI will always remain friendly just as there is no way to be certain your children will grow up to be good to you when you become old, you just hope for the best. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Oct 9 20:29:58 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:29:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Poised for defeat? In-Reply-To: <504877556.3906099.1570651160610@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20191008182046.Horde.Jlj1MPs100VDVCcxkEiQk93@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <504877556.3906099.1570651160610@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20191009132958.Horde.wb4mFXMu6Tgrti_OdnRs-hc@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Dave Sill quoting me: >> Most of the complex is a voracious monster that needs to kept? >> caged and sedated only to be released in extremis. > > > Which, unfortunately, we're not doing. Eisenhower warned us about the MIC, and I think he did a good job of keeping it on a short lease during his administration. As did his successor Kennedy up until his assassination. Then Johnson took over and just like that the Marines were on their way to jungles of Vietnam. No POTUS has mentioned it since. Maybe the comedian Bill Hicks is right. Maybe when a new POTUS gets elected, representatives of the MIC shows the President-elect a video of the Kennedy assassination from the vantage point of the grassy knoll. . . MIC: "Any questions?" POTUS: "Whats my agenda?" MIC: "Bomb ." Stuart LaForge From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Oct 12 04:31:33 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 21:31:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Another IEEE article Message-ID: https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/many-experts-say-we-shouldnt-worry-about-superintelligent-ai-theyre-wrong Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 15:18:04 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 10:18:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] lil fun Message-ID: Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Oct 13 17:35:30 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 10:35:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] lil fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 8:22 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. > > Set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life. > Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a fishing pole and set him up near a good fishing spot, and not only will he eat every day, but you can also get a fish from him each day, while (if you do it right) making him grateful for the use of "your" fishing spot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Oct 14 13:42:31 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 09:42:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] lil fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jesus died for my sins, I dare not make his sacrifice meaningless by not committing any. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Oct 15 19:28:17 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:28:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] latest psychobabble Message-ID: New psychology study identifies ?hypo-egoic nonentitlement? as a central feature of humility This sort of thing is common in clinical psychology (which I got out of in 1967, let me remind you - do NOT think of me when craziness like this gets around) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 15 19:56:58 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:56:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] latest psychobabble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d58392$b4e136a0$1ea3a3e0$@rainier66.com> Eh, Bill I think some psychology major was having a little fun. Perhaps she was cynical, or some professor needed a paper from her immediately because a conference was coming up. She had no ideas, so she took a previous paper on egoistic entitlement being a central feature of hubris, and double reversed it to hypo-egoistic nonentitlement leading to not-hubris. Just for fun. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 12:28 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] latest psychobabble New psychology study identifies ?hypo-egoic nonentitlement? as a central feature of humility This sort of thing is common in clinical psychology (which I got out of in 1967, let me remind you - do NOT think of me when craziness like this gets around) bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 13:46:35 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:46:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Robot Hands Message-ID: A robot is now dexterous enough to solve a Rubik?s Cube with only one human looking 5 fingered hand in 4 minutes. A Robot Solving Rubik?s Cube with only one Hand: Uncut John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 16 23:40:20 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 18:40:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nature article Message-ID: 'de novo genes' - made from noncoding genes (that's junk DNA, right?) - fascinating. Why wait for mutation? Just make what you need. bill w https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03061-x -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Sat Oct 19 14:27:51 2019 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2019 14:27:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Human Compatible: Artificial Intelligence and the Problem of Control Message-ID: I highly recommend Stuart Russell's new book, Human Compatible: Artificial Intelligence and the Problem of Control. This book effectively communicates the issues of AI safety and control to a general audience. I especially like this book because it vindicates the ideas of my forgotten AGI-12 paper, Avoiding Unintended AI Behaviors, as explained here: https://www.ssec.wisc.edu/~billh/g/hc_and_agi12.html From spike at rainier66.com Tue Oct 22 16:31:05 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2019 09:31:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: References: <001201d57c86$f4391060$dcab3120$@rainier66.com> <000001d57cc9$70b553a0$521ffae0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002b01d588f6$1a775c20$4f661460$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: natasha natashavita-more.com Subject: RE: [ExI] we're baaaack! >...Thank you to David! (and Spike ??) With your (and Spike ??), you are too kind madam, and I thank you ?? . David deserves the credit. I am happy to see we are still going, like the energizer rabbit. Although other online groups have taken up futurism, ours is a unique spot in the digital world (which is transitioning to be the real world more all the time.) spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 10:33:49 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 06:33:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum supremacy Message-ID: Today Google officially published in the journal Nature it's article claiming their 53 Qubit Quantum Computer (it was actually 54 Qubit but one Qubit didn't work) could solve a problem in 3 minutes and 20 seconds that it would take Summit, the world's largest supercomputer, 10,000 years to solve: Quantum supremacy Very recently IBM, another company working on Quantum Computers, has disputed Google's claim: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1910.09534.pdf IBM says they have found a classical algorithm that if running on the largest classical supercomputer in the world could do what Google's Machine did in 2.55 days, and if all 54 Qubits had been working duplicated it in 5.80 days; that's still a lot less than 3 minutes and 20 seconds but it's not 10,000 years. It should be noted that unlike Google IBM has not actually performed the calculation to prove what they say is true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Wed Oct 23 12:43:55 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:55 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Quantum supremacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! Awesome. I will read the Nature paper, and I am wondering whether it is identical to the draft that had been previously leaked, or different. On 2019. Oct 23., Wed at 12:36, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Today Google officially published in the journal Nature it's > article claiming their 53 Qubit Quantum Computer (it was actually 54 Qubit > but one Qubit didn't work) could solve a problem in 3 minutes and 20 > seconds that it would take Summit, the world's largest supercomputer, > 10,000 years to solve: > > Quantum supremacy > > Very recently IBM, another company working on Quantum Computers, has > disputed Google's claim: > > https://arxiv.org/pdf/1910.09534.pdf > > IBM says they have found a classical algorithm that if running on the > largest classical supercomputer in the world could do what Google's Machine > did in 2.55 days, and if all 54 Qubits had been working duplicated it in > 5.80 days; that's still a lot less than 3 minutes and 20 seconds but it's > not 10,000 years. It should be noted that unlike Google IBM has not > actually performed the calculation to prove what they say is true. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Oct 24 02:17:22 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:17:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hacking voting machines Message-ID: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> After every election the past few years, the list has discussed how vulnerable voting machines are to tampering. But this video from professional pen-tester Rachel Tobac really brings the point home. It shows her getting to the admin menu in under 2 minutes. And most of that is waiting for the machine to boot up after being shut off. https://www.inverse.com/article/48038-here-s-how-a-voting-machine-used-in-18-states-can-be-hacked-in-two-minutes?fbclid=IwAR04Ge_wATAOazuXqcdW4Rplp8sqgSNZihZV8-AtKPnCZtaWFvwgN2KxyAQ I really think it is time for a fully transparent open-source zero-trust voting system based on blockchain technology where anybody can count the votes and anybody can verify that their vote was counted. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 04:13:10 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 21:13:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hacking voting machines In-Reply-To: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: How do we get elected representatives who believe they may have benefited from election hacking to allow more secure voting machines? On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > After every election the past few years, the list has discussed how > vulnerable voting machines are to tampering. But this video from > professional pen-tester Rachel Tobac really brings the point home. It > shows her getting to the admin menu in under 2 minutes. And most of > that is waiting for the machine to boot up after being shut off. > > > https://www.inverse.com/article/48038-here-s-how-a-voting-machine-used-in-18-states-can-be-hacked-in-two-minutes?fbclid=IwAR04Ge_wATAOazuXqcdW4Rplp8sqgSNZihZV8-AtKPnCZtaWFvwgN2KxyAQ > > I really think it is time for a fully transparent open-source > zero-trust voting system based on blockchain technology where anybody > can count the votes and anybody can verify that their vote was counted. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 24 05:03:00 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:03:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Hacking voting machines In-Reply-To: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <001e01d58a28$4f64f900$ee2eeb00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 7:17 PM To: ExI Chat Cc: Stuart LaForge Subject: [ExI] Hacking voting machines After every election the past few years, the list has discussed how vulnerable voting machines are to tampering. But this video from professional pen-tester Rachel Tobac really brings the point home. It shows her getting to the admin menu in under 2 minutes. And most of that is waiting for the machine to boot up after being shut off. https://www.inverse.com/article/48038-here-s-how-a-voting-machine-used-in-18 -states-can-be-hacked-in-two-minutes?fbclid=IwAR04Ge_wATAOazuXqcdW4Rplp8sqgS NZihZV8-AtKPnCZtaWFvwgN2KxyAQ I really think it is time for a fully transparent open-source zero-trust voting system based on blockchain technology where anybody can count the votes and anybody can verify that their vote was counted. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Stuart thanks for mentioning this. The animosity we have seen build in America over one office (POTUS) is ample motive to make sure we don't have a disputed election in 2020. I would suggest going with all paper ballots, no counting machines, no paperless anything. We should take those voting machines and smash them to flinders forthwith: in our times they are too dangerous. Even the perception of possible indiscretion is something we really don't want in a nuclear armed nation. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 09:49:03 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 05:49:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Hacking voting machines In-Reply-To: <001e01d58a28$4f64f900$ee2eeb00$@rainier66.com> References: <20191023191722.Horde.Bt9SvjWnUZg96VeJHlbBWRJ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <001e01d58a28$4f64f900$ee2eeb00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 1:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> The animosity we have seen build in America over one office (POTUS) is > ample motive to make sure we don't have a disputed election in 2020. * We may not need to worry about voting machines because there may not even be a 2020 election. POTUS is now certain to be impeached and although he is unlikely to be convicted in the Republican Senate if he is he will certainly call the proceedings "phony" just as he recently called the US Constitution itself "phony" and He Who Must Not Be Named will stay put right where he is, or at least try to. I don't know if he will be successful. Trump calls the United States Constitution "phony." And if there is a 2020 election POTUS will certainly call it phony just as he did in 2016 even though he won. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 12:49:14 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:49:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Data Privacy and Security Exhibition in San Francisco Message-ID: Firefox and Tactical Tech Bring The Glass Room to San Francisco Quote: The Glass Room, curated by Tactical Tech and produced by Firefox, is a place to explore how technology and data are shaping our perceptions, experiences, and understanding of the world. The most connected generation in history is also the most exposed, as people?s privacy becomes the fuel for technology?s incredible growth. What?s gained and lost ? and who decides ? are explored at the Glass Room. The Glass Room is in a 28,000 square-foot former retail store, located at 838 Market Street, across from Westfield San Francisco Centre, in the heart of the Union Square Retail District. It will be open to the public from October 16th through November 3rd. The location is intentional, meant to entice shoppers into the store and help them leave better equipped to make informed choices about technology and how it impacts their personal data, privacy, and security. Note This is a free exhibition, with varied daily events and lectures. Tactical Tech produce the Data Detox Kit which is also free. This is a course of everyday steps you can take to control your digital privacy, security, and wellbeing in ways that feel right to you. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 24 14:54:44 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 07:54:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3d print wealth Message-ID: <001401d58a7a$f9a3c340$eceb49c0$@rainier66.com> I heard that a Star Wars toy sold at auction for six figures: https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/07/star-wars-toy-sells-for-record-breaking-112926-at-central-pa-auction.html If this story is true, I can confidently assert this is the only children's toy which came with its own...um... object they vaguely pretend is a rocket. OK sure, a rocket. Absurd! Then it occurred to me: there is enough detail in this photo, I might be able to 3D print a passable Boba counterFett. I could sooo get rich off of this, and it isn't even entirely clear it would be illegal. It brought a crazy sum at an auction from some fool who desperately needed to be separated from his money, but it isn't currency or anything. The seller wouldn't even necessarily make any false claims. She puts a 5 digit price tag on it at an estate sale with a post-it note saying something like: Heirs don't let Boba Fett go cheap. It is worth a buttload of money. Some sucker buys it, she skips town rich, done. OK then I had another thought which was inspired by a local friend's neighbor. They were a childless couple in their 80s, travelled all over the world, collected art and so on. They had lived in the same house for over 40 years and it was quite clear they had a pile of money. They used to invite my friends over when they returned from travelling, show them some art object they had collected from somewhere, related the circumstances behind the object, clearly very pricey stuff. But last year, the missus fell ill and never came home from the hospital, then a month later an ambulance was seen in front of the grieving widower's house and he never came home either. I don't know what happens in those cases, but there were no known heirs, no family visitors ever in the 30 years my friends knew them. They were just a quiet loner couple with a lotta money. There was an estate sale. My friends didn't go, but wondered about it after the fact. The late couple owned all this stuff that had enormous value only because of the history behind it, not because of the object itself. The Boba Fett toy would be worth a dollar or two as a toy, (which comes with its own red sub-toy (for Malibu Barbie (and possibly Earring Magic Ken...))) but the story behind it makes it worth six figures. If you didn't know the story, the Mona Lisa would be just another portrait of a woman, ja? So all this stuff my friend's neighbor collected had value only because of the information behind it, which died with them. Stories can be unexpectedly lost and stories can be counterfeit. If stories somehow create wealth, this leads to all manner of paradox. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 17:09:44 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:09:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] 3d print wealth In-Reply-To: <001401d58a7a$f9a3c340$eceb49c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d58a7a$f9a3c340$eceb49c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The Mona Lisa would be just another portrait of a woman, ja? To me, that's all it is. What would happen to the value if it was discovered that actually the artist is an unknown person? Drop to a few thousand, probably. So all this stuff my friend's neighbor collected had value only because of the information behind it, which died with them. Stories can be unexpectedly lost and stories can be counterfeit. If stories somehow create wealth, this leads to all manner of paradox. spike I am not sure what paradoxes you refer to here. You are speaking of essences - the idea that something of Jesus remains in pieces of the True Cross and can create miracles. If you added up all the pieces of the True Cross sold during the Middle Ages you would likely wind up with a number of tons. Essences are, like you said, only stories which could be lies. Is there nothing valuable that has not been faked in some way, and successfully? For my money - none of which will pass out of my bank account - the entire Bible, Old and New, is stories. Some or all of it fiction - morality tales like Aesop. Do you know of fan fiction? Stories written by live people which mimic famous writers, often dead, and their characters, etc. Future people may take these as the writings of the original author. Let me ask you: just what is lost if that happens? Nothing. A good story is a good story no matter who wrote it. Many poems are by Anonymous. Would they be any better if we knew that they were written by a famous poet? No. bill w On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I heard that a Star Wars toy sold at auction for six figures: > > > https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/07/star-wars-toy-sells-for-record-breaking-112926-at-central-pa-auction.html > > If this story is true, I can confidently assert this is the only > children's toy which came with its own...um... object they vaguely pretend > is a rocket. OK sure, a rocket. > > Absurd! Then it occurred to me: there is enough detail in this photo, I > might be able to 3D print a passable Boba counterFett. I could sooo get > rich off of this, and it isn't even entirely clear it would be illegal. It > brought a crazy sum at an auction from some fool who desperately needed to > be separated from his money, but it isn't currency or anything. The seller > wouldn't even necessarily make any false claims. She puts a 5 digit price > tag on it at an estate sale with a post-it note saying something like: > Heirs don't let Boba Fett go cheap. It is worth a buttload of money. > > Some sucker buys it, she skips town rich, done. > > OK then I had another thought which was inspired by a local friend's > neighbor. They were a childless couple in their 80s, travelled all over > the world, collected art and so on. They had lived in the same house for > over 40 years and it was quite clear they had a pile of money. They used > to invite my friends over when they returned from travelling, show them > some art object they had collected from somewhere, related the > circumstances behind the object, clearly very pricey stuff. But last year, > the missus fell ill and never came home from the hospital, then a month > later an ambulance was seen in front of the grieving widower's house and he > never came home either. > > I don't know what happens in those cases, but there were no known heirs, > no family visitors ever in the 30 years my friends knew them. They were > just a quiet loner couple with a lotta money. There was an estate sale. > My friends didn't go, but wondered about it after the fact. The late > couple owned all this stuff that had enormous value only because of the > history behind it, not because of the object itself. > > The Boba Fett toy would be worth a dollar or two as a toy, (which comes > with its own red sub-toy (for Malibu Barbie (and possibly Earring Magic > Ken...))) but the story behind it makes it worth six figures. If you > didn't know the story, the Mona Lisa would be just another portrait of a > woman, ja? > > So all this stuff my friend's neighbor collected had value only because of > the information behind it, which died with them. Stories can be > unexpectedly lost and stories can be counterfeit. If stories somehow > create wealth, this leads to all manner of paradox. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 24 18:29:05 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 11:29:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3d print wealth In-Reply-To: <001401d58a7a$f9a3c340$eceb49c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d58a7a$f9a3c340$eceb49c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Art forgery has been a thing for possibly as long as people have paid for portable art. This is just a modern variation - and is doubtless already being done, by many, silently (since, to get away with it, the story must not get out). On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 7:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I heard that a Star Wars toy sold at auction for six figures: > > > https://www.pennlive.com/news/2019/07/star-wars-toy-sells-for-record-breaking-112926-at-central-pa-auction.html > > If this story is true, I can confidently assert this is the only > children's toy which came with its own...um... object they vaguely pretend > is a rocket. OK sure, a rocket. > > Absurd! Then it occurred to me: there is enough detail in this photo, I > might be able to 3D print a passable Boba counterFett. I could sooo get > rich off of this, and it isn't even entirely clear it would be illegal. It > brought a crazy sum at an auction from some fool who desperately needed to > be separated from his money, but it isn't currency or anything. The seller > wouldn't even necessarily make any false claims. She puts a 5 digit price > tag on it at an estate sale with a post-it note saying something like: > Heirs don't let Boba Fett go cheap. It is worth a buttload of money. > > Some sucker buys it, she skips town rich, done. > > OK then I had another thought which was inspired by a local friend's > neighbor. They were a childless couple in their 80s, travelled all over > the world, collected art and so on. They had lived in the same house for > over 40 years and it was quite clear they had a pile of money. They used > to invite my friends over when they returned from travelling, show them > some art object they had collected from somewhere, related the > circumstances behind the object, clearly very pricey stuff. But last year, > the missus fell ill and never came home from the hospital, then a month > later an ambulance was seen in front of the grieving widower's house and he > never came home either. > > I don't know what happens in those cases, but there were no known heirs, > no family visitors ever in the 30 years my friends knew them. They were > just a quiet loner couple with a lotta money. There was an estate sale. > My friends didn't go, but wondered about it after the fact. The late > couple owned all this stuff that had enormous value only because of the > history behind it, not because of the object itself. > > The Boba Fett toy would be worth a dollar or two as a toy, (which comes > with its own red sub-toy (for Malibu Barbie (and possibly Earring Magic > Ken...))) but the story behind it makes it worth six figures. If you > didn't know the story, the Mona Lisa would be just another portrait of a > woman, ja? > > So all this stuff my friend's neighbor collected had value only because of > the information behind it, which died with them. Stories can be > unexpectedly lost and stories can be counterfeit. If stories somehow > create wealth, this leads to all manner of paradox. > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 02:03:40 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 21:03:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cool! free drinks, anyone? Message-ID: OK Spike, let's see what you can do with this one. https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/25/health/beer-stomach-autobrewery-syndrome-trnd/index.html bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 27 15:30:27 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 08:30:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] funny video for a sunday morning Message-ID: <004c01d58cdb$75b17bf0$611473d0$@rainier66.com> No cosmic significance to this 5 second video, no real future-vision anything, just funny. The silly goof was trying to get rid of his cockroaches, which were seen coming in and out of a hole in his backyard. His solution: pour a bit of gasoline in the hole and drop in a match: https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2019/10/22/5478352924278045506/63 6x382_MP4_5478352924278045506.mp4 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Oct 27 16:21:59 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 16:21:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] funny video for a sunday morning In-Reply-To: <004c01d58cdb$75b17bf0$611473d0$@rainier66.com> References: <004c01d58cdb$75b17bf0$611473d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 15:34, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > No cosmic significance to this 5 second video, no real future-vision anything, just funny. The silly goof was trying to get rid of his cockroaches, which were seen coming in and out of a hole in his backyard. His solution: pour a bit of gasoline in the hole and drop in a match: > > https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2019/10/22/5478352924278045506/636x382_MP4_5478352924278045506.mp4 > You might enjoy this video of the latest soldier robot in action and being mistreated. (4 mins). BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Oct 27 16:47:02 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2019 09:47:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] funny video for a sunday morning In-Reply-To: References: <004c01d58cdb$75b17bf0$611473d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005901d58ce6$290b49b0$7b21dd10$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- Subject: Re: [ExI] funny video for a sunday morning On Sun, 27 Oct 2019 at 15:34, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... His solution: pour a bit of gasoline in the hole and drop in a match: > > https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/preview/mol/2019/10/22/5478352924278045 > 506/636x382_MP4_5478352924278045506.mp4 > >...You might enjoy this video of the latest soldier robot in action and being mistreated. (4 mins). BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK, good to see you back her posting, me lad! The whole goofball blowing up backyard has me ponderings something I have wondered about many times: why does that cockroach epic fail make us laugh so hard? I had to stop and go to the bathroom after seeing it. Regarding the Bosstown video, this is an important lesson. A lot of viewers didn't get the joke. spike From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 12:43:40 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:43:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) Message-ID: Found on the interwebs......... Wherein it is related how that Polygon of Womanly Virtue, young Polly Nomial (our heroine) is accosted by that Notorious Villain Curly PI, and factored (oh horrors!). ------------------------------------------------------------------ Once upon a time (1/T) Pretty Polly Nomial was strolling across a field of vectors when she came to the boundary of a singularly large matrix. Now Polly was convergent and her mother had made it an absolute condition that she never enter such an array without her brackets on. Polly, however, who had changed her variables that morning and was feeling particularly badly behaved, ignored this condition on the basis that it was insufficient, and made her way amongst the complex elements. Rows and columns closed in from all sides. Tangents approached her surface. She became tensor and tensor. Quite suddenly, two branches of a hyperbola touched her at a single point. She oscillated violently, lost all sense of directrix, and went completely divergent. As she reached a turning point, she tripped over a square root that was protruding from the erf and plunged headlong down a steep gradient. When she rounded off once more, she found herself inverted, apparently alone, in a non-euclidean space. She was being watched, however. That smooth operator, Curly Pi, was lurking inner product. As his eyes devoured her curvilinear coordinates, a singular expression crossed his face. He wondered, was she still convergent? He decided to integrate improperly at once. Hearing a common fraction behind her, Polly rotated and saw Curly Pi approaching with his power series extrapolated. She could see at once by his degenerate conic and dissipative terms that he was bent on no good. "Arcsinh!" she gasped. "Ho, Ho," he said. "What a symmetric little asymptote you have. I can see your angles have lots of secs." "Oh, Sir," she protested, "keep away from me. I haven't got my brackets on." "Calm yourself, my dear," said our suave operator. "Your fears are purely imaginary." "i, i," she thought. "Perhaps he's not normal, but homologous." "What order are you?" the brute demanded. "Seventeen," replied Polly. Curly leered, "I suppose you've never been operated on." "Of course not," Polly replied quite properly, "I'm absolutely convergent!" "Come, come," said Curly. "Let's off to a decimal place I know and I'll take you to the limit." "Never!" gasped Polly. "Abscissa!!!" he swore, using the vilest oath he knew. His patience was gone. Coshing her over the coefficient with a natural log until she was powerless, Curly removed her discontinuities. He stared at her significant places, and began smoothing out her points of inflection. Poor Polly. The algorithmic method was now her only hope. She felt his hand tending toward her asymptotic limit. Her convergence would soon be gone forever. There was no mercy, for Curly was a heavyside operator. Curly's radius squared itself; Polly's locii quivered. He integrated her by parts. He integrated her by fractions. After he cofactored, he performed Runge-Kutta on her. The complex beast even went all the way around and did a contour integration. Curly went on operating until he had satisfied her hypothesis. Then, he exponentiated and became completely orthogonal. When Polly got home that night, her mother noticed that she was no longer piecewise continuous, but had been truncated in several places. But, it was too late to differentiate now. As the months went by, Polly's denominator increased monotonically. Finally, she went to L'Hopital and generated a small but pathological function which left surds all over the place and drove Polly to deviation. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The moral of the sad story is this: "If you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom." From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:00:01 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:00:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No offense, but this is weird and rapey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:18:29 2019 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:18:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That is, I believe, the point. Literally the entire joke is that you can, in fact, use extremely technical mathematics vocabulary, traditionally considered completely clean and literally incapable of impropriety, to write something weird and rapey. Double entendres, in general, were funnier when there were still taboos about what you could say using single entendres. And rapey-ness was still funny, at least in the sense of having the shock and unexpected juxtaposition generate an involuntary humor response, when A ) pain [in general] was still a respectable subject for humor, and B ) the sexuality being alluded to was considered literally unspeakable [in public at least] by one's social class. Modern frankness about sexuality, not to mention the modern norm of [at least displaying in public] significantly expanded circles of empathy, have completely destroyed entire genres of humor. On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:02 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No offense, but this is weird and rapey > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 19:40:28 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 12:40:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t seen as funny today. (In a similar manner, reading the Iliad (I return to it from time to time), I?ve never found the scoldinf of Thersites funny, though it seems like that is how it?s supposed to be taken.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Oct 30, 2019, at 12:20 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > That is, I believe, the point. Literally the entire joke is that you can, in fact, use extremely technical mathematics vocabulary, traditionally considered completely clean and literally incapable of impropriety, to write something weird and rapey. > > Double entendres, in general, were funnier when there were still taboos about what you could say using single entendres. > > And rapey-ness was still funny, at least in the sense of having the shock and unexpected juxtaposition generate an involuntary humor response, when A ) pain [in general] was still a respectable subject for humor, and B ) the sexuality being alluded to was considered literally unspeakable [in public at least] by one's social class. > > Modern frankness about sexuality, not to mention the modern norm of [at least displaying in public] significantly expanded circles of empathy, have completely destroyed entire genres of humor. > >> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 1:02 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: >> No offense, but this is weird and rapey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 20:17:10 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:17:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 15:41 Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t seen > as funny today. > I agree, which is why I found this joke to be very tasteless. It's not even really funny, it's more like "let's see how many math references I can make". And those math references are used to write a detailed description of rape. I'm no SJW, and I'm definitely not a fan of trigger warnings or snowflake culture, but this joke is super creepy, especially because you can tell someone had fun writing it. I think everything is grounds for humor, but this isn't a joke, it's just a far-too-detailed description of rape. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 20:43:01 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 13:43:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:19 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 15:41 Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t seen >> as funny today. >> > > I agree, which is why I found this joke to be very tasteless. It's not > even really funny, it's more like "let's see how many math references I can > make". And those math references are used to write a detailed description > of rape. I'm no SJW, and I'm definitely not a fan of trigger warnings or > snowflake culture, but this joke is super creepy, especially because you > can tell someone had fun writing it. I think everything is grounds for > humor, but this isn't a joke, it's just a far-too-detailed description of > rape. > While I could follow along with everything leading up to the rape itself, I found the rape itself to branch into abstract, impenetrable metaphor - as most attempts at metaphorical description of rape tend to. Even in certain older days, describing the deed itself was vulgar, its details poorly alluded to. (Widespread misconceptions about the process and what happens during it, especially from a female point of view, may have contributed: a writer can have a hard time making metaphor to what the writer does not have a clear understanding of. As others have put it, "most people have had nowhere near as much sex as most people imagine that most people do.") For this *and* for the reason of modern sensibilities, I believe it would have worked better had the actual rape not happened - if, for instance, the protagonist beat off the would-be rapist and escaped with her (apparent) virginity intact. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 20:47:29 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:47:29 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > > Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t seen as funny today. (In a similar manner, reading the Iliad (I return to it from time to time), I?ve never found the scolding of Thersites funny, though it seems like that is how it?s supposed to be taken.) > I'm not sure that banning rape jokes is moral progress at a time when rape and sexual violence is the main theme in the massively popular Game of Thrones series. And the books have many times more such events than the TV series. It seems to be more PC display than anything else. And, of course, the little story has no rude words in it at all. If the reader wants to substitute filthy words then that is their responsibility. Unless you are a mathematician of course - in which case it is probably extremely erotic. :) BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 21:10:31 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:10:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EAEB8AD-8CB9-4A6A-BF20-0F6098CDF1DD@gmail.com> Who said anything about banning? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Oct 30, 2019, at 1:50 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 19:43, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t seen as funny today. (In a similar manner, reading the Iliad (I return to it from time to time), I?ve never found the scolding of Thersites funny, though it seems like that is how it?s supposed to be taken.) >> > > I'm not sure that banning rape jokes is moral progress at a time when > rape and sexual violence is the main theme in the massively popular > Game of Thrones series. And the books have many times more such events > than the TV series. It seems to be more PC display than anything else. > And, of course, the little story has no rude words in it at all. If > the reader wants to substitute filthy words then that is their > responsibility. Unless you are a mathematician of course - in which > case it is probably extremely erotic. :) > > > BillK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 22:33:18 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:33:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:43 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > While I could follow along with everything leading up to the rape itself, > I found the rape itself to branch into abstract, impenetrable metaphor - as > most attempts at metaphorical description of rape tend to. Even in certain > older days, describing the deed itself was vulgar, its details poorly > alluded to. (Widespread misconceptions about the process and what happens > during it, especially from a female point of view, may have contributed: a > writer can have a hard time making metaphor to what the writer does not > have a clear understanding of. As others have put it, "most people have > had nowhere near as much sex as most people imagine that most people do.") > > For this *and* for the reason of modern sensibilities, I believe it would > have worked better had the actual rape not happened - if, for instance, the > protagonist beat off the would-be rapist and escaped with her (apparent) > virginity intact. > To give a specific example, might the following have improved the tale (by removing the rape and keeping the metaphors parsable)? --- Wishing to preserve her disunion with him, she engaged a few swift vectors. His perpendicular became parallel, and then a null set, being entirely subtracted from him. As he reached asymptotic pain, she took a step function away, then another, staring at the concave shapes and acute angles he was folding himself into, but soon increased her distance over time away from him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Oct 30 22:36:14 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:36:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure that banning rape jokes is moral progress at a time when rape and sexual violence is the main theme in the massively popular Game of Thrones series The above is a non-sequitur. You can't ban anything like this, but if it were up to me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond, and I am usually a powerful opponent of censorship. Many women have been scarred emotionally for life even by attempted rape, much less the real thing. Not a topic for humor if you have any empathy for women. What's next? Abortion jokes? Syphilis jokes? Completely disgusting. ( No, I am not hung up about sex. I taught the course for several years.) bill w On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 4:57 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 1:19 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, 15:41 Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Tastes change, but I see it as moral progress that rape jokes aren?t >>> seen as funny today. >>> >> >> I agree, which is why I found this joke to be very tasteless. It's not >> even really funny, it's more like "let's see how many math references I can >> make". And those math references are used to write a detailed description >> of rape. I'm no SJW, and I'm definitely not a fan of trigger warnings or >> snowflake culture, but this joke is super creepy, especially because you >> can tell someone had fun writing it. I think everything is grounds for >> humor, but this isn't a joke, it's just a far-too-detailed description of >> rape. >> > > While I could follow along with everything leading up to the rape itself, > I found the rape itself to branch into abstract, impenetrable metaphor - as > most attempts at metaphorical description of rape tend to. Even in certain > older days, describing the deed itself was vulgar, its details poorly > alluded to. (Widespread misconceptions about the process and what happens > during it, especially from a female point of view, may have contributed: a > writer can have a hard time making metaphor to what the writer does not > have a clear understanding of. As others have put it, "most people have > had nowhere near as much sex as most people imagine that most people do.") > > For this *and* for the reason of modern sensibilities, I believe it would > have worked better had the actual rape not happened - if, for instance, the > protagonist beat off the would-be rapist and escaped with her (apparent) > virginity intact. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Oct 30 23:15:06 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 16:15:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ec01d58f77$df15dd90$9d4198b0$@rainier66.com> >? As others have put it, "most people have had nowhere near as much sex as most people imagine that most people do.")? We math geeks are so lonely any reference to sex is funny. Any gathering of math geeks reminds one of high school in some ways, depending on who one hung out with in high school. Sigh. Regarding the suggestive math story, we could improve it perhaps by replacing the rape scene with a situation in which a maiden was confronted with opportunity by a handsome postulate but had deep reservations and internal conflict because he was unproven. That would bring in Goedel?s Incompleteness theorem. Then, if very cleverly written, it might be unclear if anything untoward had occurred or not, introducing Heisenberg?s Uncertainty Principle. The mathematicians and physicist would love it. For normal people, they would walk away wondering what in the hell is wrong with us. The best analogy would be xkcd comics. If you love those things, then you probably get exactly what I am talking about. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 00:41:18 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 20:41:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: <1058C8C7-D510-4619-B3DE-FA3F2F0BAA27@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:58 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm not sure that banning rape jokes is moral progress at a time when > rape and sexual violence is the main theme in the massively popular > Game of Thrones series > > The above is a non-sequitur. You can't ban anything like this, but if it > were up to me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond, and I am usually a powerful > opponent of censorship. Many women have been scarred emotionally for life > even by attempted rape, much less the real thing. Not a topic for humor if > you have any empathy for women. What's next? Abortion jokes? Syphilis > jokes? Completely disgusting. ( No, I am not hung up about sex. I taught > the course for several years.) > > ### What's wrong with abortion jokes? There was a time when if you asked me whether cruelly torturing dogs should be punished by incarceration I would have answered "Yes, of course", since I love doggies and the thought of intentionally torturing them makes me sick to my stomach. But on further reflection and goaded by my systematizing instincts, I changed my mind. Since only humans are a true repository of value, humans may not be grievously harmed if no human harm is at stake. So, if you wanted to run a dogfight ring in Mytopia no enforcer would break down your door. Of course, nice people might still choose to deny you any association with them, ban you from walking into their homes and businesses - but they wouldn't give themselves the right to infringe on your property, including furry and breathing property. For a similar reason I would not ban any jokes, no matter how distasteful. Claimed "emotional scarring" is no basis for inflicting actual physical harms in revenge. Speech must be free. To say otherwise is hate speech, and hate speech must be stopped. There is a self-referential paradox here but I don't care. Speech must be free. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 01:01:23 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:01:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <792CF3F6-CCC9-4056-A39B-4AEDBA1E7693@gmail.com> I believe Christine Korsgaard provides sound reasoning on why human are not the only beings who have value or who matter in her recent book, _Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to the Other Animals_. Again, who here mentioned banning anything? Calling something inappropriate or pointing out that many people now find some jokes not funny and even find such jokes horrid is not equivalent to calling for a ban on such jokes. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Oct 30, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > >> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 7:58 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> I'm not sure that banning rape jokes is moral progress at a time when >> rape and sexual violence is the main theme in the massively popular >> Game of Thrones series >> >> The above is a non-sequitur. You can't ban anything like this, but if it were up to me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond, and I am usually a powerful opponent of censorship. Many women have been scarred emotionally for life even by attempted rape, much less the real thing. Not a topic for humor if you have any empathy for women. What's next? Abortion jokes? Syphilis jokes? Completely disgusting. ( No, I am not hung up about sex. I taught the course for several years.) >> > > ### What's wrong with abortion jokes? > > There was a time when if you asked me whether cruelly torturing dogs should be punished by incarceration I would have answered "Yes, of course", since I love doggies and the thought of intentionally torturing them makes me sick to my stomach. But on further reflection and goaded by my systematizing instincts, I changed my mind. Since only humans are a true repository of value, humans may not be grievously harmed if no human harm is at stake. So, if you wanted to run a dogfight ring in Mytopia no enforcer would break down your door. Of course, nice people might still choose to deny you any association with them, ban you from walking into their homes and businesses - but they wouldn't give themselves the right to infringe on your property, including furry and breathing property. > > For a similar reason I would not ban any jokes, no matter how distasteful. Claimed "emotional scarring" is no basis for inflicting actual physical harms in revenge. Speech must be free. To say otherwise is hate speech, and hate speech must be stopped. There is a self-referential paradox here but I don't care. Speech must be free. > > Rafal > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 09:48:39 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 05:48:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: <792CF3F6-CCC9-4056-A39B-4AEDBA1E7693@gmail.com> References: <792CF3F6-CCC9-4056-A39B-4AEDBA1E7693@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I believe Christine Korsgaard provides sound reasoning on why human are > not the only beings who have value or who matter in her recent book, > _Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to the Other Animals_. > ### I reject this reasoning. I am a speciesist. My in-group is carefully calculated, not an emotional construct. ------------------------------ > > Again, who here mentioned banning anything? > ### Will wrote " You can't ban anything like this, but if it were up to me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond". Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Oct 31 11:32:21 2019 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:32:21 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Data Privacy and Security Exhibition in San Francisco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5DBAC645.3000406@zaiboc.net> On 30/10/2019 19:40, BillK wrote: > Tactical Tech produce the Data Detox Kit which is also free. This is a > course of everyday steps you can take to control your digital privacy, > security, and wellbeing in ways that feel right to you. > Rather ironic that the first thing I see on this site is a message that I have to enable scripting in order to use it. -- Ben Zaiboc From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 14:14:08 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:14:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) Message-ID: <43D63DB9-27F4-482F-AE95-785822FC5AEB@gmail.com> ?Are you familiar with Korsgaard?s reasoning? I missed Will?s statement. My bad. But you do agree, I trust, that one might find a joke inappropriate without wanting to ban it? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst >> On Oct 31, 2019, at 2:58 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> I believe Christine Korsgaard provides sound reasoning on why human are not the only beings who have value or who matter in her recent book, _Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to the Other Animals_. > > ### I reject this reasoning. I am a speciesist. My in-group is carefully calculated, not an emotional construct. > > ------------------------------ > >> Again, who here mentioned banning anything? > > ### Will wrote " You can't ban anything like this, but if it were up to me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond". > > Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 14:43:24 2019 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:43:24 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: <43D63DB9-27F4-482F-AE95-785822FC5AEB@gmail.com> References: <43D63DB9-27F4-482F-AE95-785822FC5AEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Modern political discourse, on at least one side of the aisle, is founded on the absolutely unquestionable premise that all inappropriate things /must/ be banned. On a related note, https://babylonbee.com/news/report-lots-of-yelling-at-each-other-expected-to-fix-things-any-day-now On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:16 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?Are you familiar with Korsgaard?s reasoning? > > I missed Will?s statement. My bad. But you do agree, I trust, that one > might find a joke inappropriate without wanting to ban it? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Oct 31, 2019, at 2:58 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:03 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I believe Christine Korsgaard provides sound reasoning on why human are >> not the only beings who have value or who matter in her recent book, >> _Fellow Creatures: Our Obligations to the Other Animals_. >> > > ### I reject this reasoning. I am a speciesist. My in-group is carefully > calculated, not an emotional construct. > > ------------------------------ > > Again, who here mentioned banning anything? >> > > ### Will wrote " You can't ban anything like this, but if it were up to > me, I'd do it in a split nanosecond". > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 15:03:32 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:03:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 3:03 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > No offense, but this is weird and rapey > Rapey? Any rape in that story was supplied by your brain. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 15:23:08 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:23:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Data Privacy and Security Exhibition in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <5DBAC645.3000406@zaiboc.net> References: <5DBAC645.3000406@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 at 12:49, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 30/10/2019 19:40, BillK wrote: > > Tactical Tech produce the Data Detox Kit which is also free. This is a > > course of everyday steps you can take to control your digital privacy, > > security, and wellbeing in ways that feel right to you. > > > > Rather ironic that the first thing I see on this site is a message that > I have to enable scripting in order to use it. > _______________________________________________ Websites with active webpages to interact with visitors will require JavaScript enabled. The NoScript extension allows you to use a 'Site Info' page where you can check the site reputation and run virus scans before allowing JavaScript. In this case though the site is well known and trusted by Mozilla, for example. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 16:08:15 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:08:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] and women Message-ID: Very, very often jokes are about fear. Some whites don't like blacks and are afraid of them in many ways, so they make up demeaning names for them and tell degrading jokes. Men are often afraid of beautiful women, so they make up jokes about dumb blondes. People are afraid of death so they make up jokes about St Peter and the gate, etc. If you are afraid of something and want to make up jokes about it, like whistling through the graveyard, I can't stop you, but it tells me something about you when you demean others. Horrible experiences like rape are something to make fun of? Are you serious? I cannot think of anything more demeaning to women. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 16:26:54 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:26:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] and women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Very, very often jokes are about fear. Some whites don't like blacks and > are afraid of them in many ways, so they make up demeaning names for them > and tell degrading jokes. > > Men are often afraid of beautiful women, so they make up jokes about dumb > blondes. > > People are afraid of death so they make up jokes about St Peter and the > gate, etc. > > If you are afraid of something and want to make up jokes about it, like > whistling through the graveyard, I can't stop you, but it tells me > something about you when you demean others. > > Horrible experiences like rape are something to make fun of? Are you > serious? I cannot think of anything more demeaning to women. > > bill w > I agree, Bill. I doubt anyone who has been raped would post such a joke. Particularly a laborious euphemistic description of someone being raped out of their virginity. I'm all for free speech, but who could read that and not be sickened? My opinion slightly differs from yours in that I think there are probably funny jokes on all topics. After all, we make jokes about cancer, murder, etc. So I don't deny the possible existence of a rape joke that is funny. For example, I made this video with my best friend, and she has been a victim of such: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvkerKPFLu2/ . I think that video is funny. But the joke posted to the list didn't have a lot of humor, rather just a drawn out description of rape. Just a strange thing to be amused by. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 16:40:23 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:40:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Mathematics Risque tale :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 8:05 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 3:03 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> No offense, but this is weird and rapey >> > > Rapey? Any rape in that story was supplied by your brain. > No, the rape allegory was pretty obvious. Strong references to his phallic imagery, her private parts, the usual metaphor-that-doesn't-relate when sex happened, and then she wound up pregnant and giving birth. It was sex, and not consensual from the point of view of one of the participants, which makes it rape. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 17:31:38 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:31:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] and women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your support. I agree that many terrible jokes are truly funny. bill w On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 11:36 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Very, very often jokes are about fear. Some whites don't like blacks and >> are afraid of them in many ways, so they make up demeaning names for them >> and tell degrading jokes. >> >> Men are often afraid of beautiful women, so they make up jokes about dumb >> blondes. >> >> People are afraid of death so they make up jokes about St Peter and the >> gate, etc. >> >> If you are afraid of something and want to make up jokes about it, like >> whistling through the graveyard, I can't stop you, but it tells me >> something about you when you demean others. >> >> Horrible experiences like rape are something to make fun of? Are you >> serious? I cannot think of anything more demeaning to women. >> >> bill w >> > > I agree, Bill. I doubt anyone who has been raped would post such a joke. > Particularly a laborious euphemistic description of someone being raped out > of their virginity. I'm all for free speech, but who could read that and > not be sickened? > > My opinion slightly differs from yours in that I think there are probably > funny jokes on all topics. After all, we make jokes about cancer, murder, > etc. So I don't deny the possible existence of a rape joke that is funny. > For example, I made this video with my best friend, and she has been a > victim of such: https://www.instagram.com/p/BvkerKPFLu2/ . I think that > video is funny. But the joke posted to the list didn't have a lot of > humor, rather just a drawn out description of rape. Just a strange thing > to be amused by. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Oct 31 18:18:07 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 11:18:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] and women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d59017$8b8e3d20$a2aab760$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Subject: Re: [ExI] and women Thanks for your support. I agree that many terrible jokes are truly funny. bill w On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Very, very often jokes are about fear. ? bill w This is a good day (in the US) for this topic to come up, for the single annual festival perhaps most associated with humor is today, Halloween. Look around at the costumes, and note how many of them have to do with death and dying, then note in popular culture how many Hollywood products have that as a theme. Then compare with actual life. How much death and dying do we see? Damn little. Ignore death by all natural causes and think about the death costumes, many of which relate to predators (we don?t have those anymore) crime (such as an axe in the head (very rare in most cases today)) war deaths (we don?t really have that (or if so, we don?t really see it here)) and once you consider that, think about it. I am not a primate expert, but BillW might know. A primatologist suggested that the origins of laughter might be a modification of the primate all-clear signal. A group of chimps have an alarm call for when a leopard is spotted (aaaaaaack aaaack aaaack) but a leopard knows better than to attack a group of chimps, so when he moves on, the chimps have a kind of oo oo oo oo eh eh eh eh sound they make. OK now look at these photos: Haunted house, something jumps out, camera takes a photo, tourist buy silly pictures of themselves, money is made, cool. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/haunted-house-reactions_n_5921790 OK think about what happens about 2 seconds after these are taken. The couple or group is all laughing their asses off. If the camera could take another picture two seconds later, everybody would be laughing at themselves and having fun. Perhaps that theory is a modified primate all-clear has merit. BillW? If so, we might be on the way to explaining some of our darker humor. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Oct 31 20:35:13 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:35:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] and women In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:17 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Very, very often jokes are about fear. > Fundamentally all jokes may be based on fear, or rather the cancelation of fear. There is a theory we evolved laughter because we needed a universal "all clear" signal. A troop of hominids is moving through the African savanna when one gives a danger signal that he has spotted a movement that might have been made by a Saber Tooth Tiger, but another troop member has a better look at it and laughs indicating that it's only a squirrel. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: