From avant at sollegro.com Mon Sep 2 01:10:40 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 18:10:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Radar Message-ID: <20190901181040.Horde.zinVaKj_QQ-j2GreltH72wY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Cool new tech: Quantum Radar. A team of scientists at the Institute of Science and Technology in Austria just invented a cool new kind of radar. It uses quantum entangled pairs of microwave photons to drastically reduce the power consumption of radar and also makes radar surveillance difficult to detect. This is one of the coolest practical applications quantum entanglement that has been rendered into practice. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614160/quantum-radar-has-been-demonstrated-for-the-first-time/ https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.03058 -----------Excerpt-------------- The device is simple in essence. The researchers create pairs of entangled microwave photons using a superconducting device called a Josephson parametric converter. They beam the first photon, called the signal photon, toward the object of interest and listen for the reflection. In the meantime, they store the second photon, called the idler photon. When the reflection arrives, it interferes with this idler photon, creating a signature that reveals how far the signal photon has traveled. Voila?quantum radar! This technique has some important advantages over conventional radar. Ordinary radar works in a similar way but fails at low power levels that involve small numbers of microwave photons. That?s because hot objects in the environment emit microwaves of their own. In a room temperature environment, this amounts to a background of around 1,000 microwave photons at any instant, and these overwhelm the returning echo. This is why radar systems use powerful transmitters. Entangled photons overcome this problem. The signal and idler photons are so similar that it is easy to filter out the effects of other photons. So it becomes straightforward to detect the signal photon when it returns. Of course, entanglement is a fragile property of the quantum world, and the process of reflection destroys it. Nevertheless, the correlation between the signal and idler photons is still strong enough to distinguish them from background noise. This allows Barzanjeh and co to detect a room temperature object in a room temperature environment with just a handful of photons, in a way that is impossible to do with ordinary photons. ?We generate entangled fields using a Josephson parametric converter at millikelvin temperatures to illuminate a room-temperature object at a distance of 1 meter in a proof of principle radar setup,? they say. The researchers go on to compare their quantum radar with conventional systems operating with similarly low numbers of photons and say it significantly outperforms them, albeit only over relatively short distances. That?s interesting work revealing the significant potential of quantum radar and a first application of microwave-based entanglement. But it also shows the potential application of quantum illumination more generally. A big advantage is the low levels of electromagnetic radiation required. ?Our experiment shows the potential as a non-invasive scanning method for biomedical applications, e.g., for imaging of human tissues or non-destructive rotational spectroscopy of proteins,? say Barzanjeh and co. Then there is the obvious application as a stealthy radar that is difficult for adversaries to detect over background noise. The researchers say it could be useful for short-range low-power radar for security applications in closed and populated environments. -------------------------------- Other applications come to mind such as detecting concealed weapons in crowded environments without having to funnel people through a scanner. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Sep 2 11:48:52 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 07:48:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Radar In-Reply-To: <20190901181040.Horde.zinVaKj_QQ-j2GreltH72wY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190901181040.Horde.zinVaKj_QQ-j2GreltH72wY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:15 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > * > Cool new tech: Quantum Radar. A team of scientists at the Institute > of Science and Technology in Austria just invented a cool new kind of > radar. It uses quantum entangled pairs of microwave photons to drastically > reduce the power consumption of radar and also makes radar surveillance > difficult to detect. This is one of the coolest practical applications > quantum entanglement that has been rendered into practice.* > > https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614160/quantum-radar-has-been-demonstrated-for-the-first-time/ > https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.03058 Apparently this is an idea whose time has come because they're not just using it with microwave photons for use in radar they've done it with X rays too, although before this becomes practical for medical applications a way must be found to shrink the size of the particle accelerator that produces the X ray photons: Quantum Enhanced X-ray Detection They say they have been able to "*improve the visibility and the signal-to-noise ratio of an image with a small number of photons in an environment with a noise level that is higher than the signal by many orders of magnitude*". If they could determine whether the photons are entangled or not they could vastly improve the resolution of the picture even more, but to do that they'd have to measure the time the photons hit the detector with Attosecond (10^-18 sec) accuracy and that is beyond current technology. That's one of many reasons i think the development of a Thorium-229 nuclear clock is so important, it could bring accuracy to the 10^-19 sec level. En route to the optical nuclear clock I can't help but wonder if a brain scan made with this technology would provide enough information for a mind upload. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Mon Sep 2 15:24:03 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 08:24:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Radar In-Reply-To: <1502813177.796203.1567435736930@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190901181040.Horde.zinVaKj_QQ-j2GreltH72wY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1502813177.796203.1567435736930@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190902082403.Horde.5IB0uUwKRzhj3eMypsNcwVz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614160/quantum-radar-has-been-demonstrated-for-the-first-time/ > https://arxiv.org/abs/1908.03058 > > Apparently this is an idea whose time has come because they're not > just using it with microwave photons for use in radar they've done > it with X rays too, although before this becomes practical for > medical applications a way must be found to shrink the size of the > particle accelerator that produces the X ray photons:? ? > Quantum Enhanced X-ray Detection Does PDC to x-ray wavelengths require a particle accelerator to generate the input beam? Something like a free-electron laser? Are x-rays the best wavelength to map the brain? Isn't brain-tissue largely transparent to x-rays? I mean if you get refraction off an atomic nucleus here and there, that's great and all but if the radiative flux is near background, then is that going to be enough photons to make a complete image? > They say they have been able to "improve the visibility and the > signal-to-noise ratio of an image with a small number of photons in > an environment with a noise level that is higher than the signal by > many orders of magnitude". If they could determine whether the > photons are entangled or not they could vastly improve the > resolution of the picture even more, but to do?that they'd have to > measure the time the photons hit the detector with Attosecond > (10^-18 sec) accuracy and that is beyond current technology. That's > one of many reasons i think the development of a Thorium-229 nuclear > clock is so important, it could bring accuracy to the 10^-19 sec > level. > > En route to the optical nuclear clock I imagine something like this would revolutionize x-ray crystallography of proteins and what not. > > I can't help but wonder if a brain scan made with this technology > would provide enough information for a mind upload. I wonder if something similar could be done with ultrasound using phonons. Ultrasound might be a better approach to imaging the brain then x-rays provided you figure out a way to get the sound waves through the skull. Maybe use the ear canal? Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Sep 2 17:19:08 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 13:19:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Radar In-Reply-To: <20190902082403.Horde.5IB0uUwKRzhj3eMypsNcwVz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190901181040.Horde.zinVaKj_QQ-j2GreltH72wY@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1502813177.796203.1567435736930@mail.yahoo.com> <20190902082403.Horde.5IB0uUwKRzhj3eMypsNcwVz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 11:28 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > Does PDC to x-ray wavelengths require a particle accelerator > to generate the input beam? Something like a free-electron laser? * Yes, they need to make them a lot smaller and cheaper before medicare will pay for such a scan. > *> Are x-rays the best wavelength to map the brain? Isn't > brain-tissue largely transparent to x-rays?* Yes but with this technique a X-ray photon wouldn't have to be absorbed by a atom for us to figure out there was matter there as it is with conventional X ray photographs. The photon wouldn't have to be destroyed, if it was just perturbed in even a tiny way we would know the photon must have had a slight glancing encounter with an atom. A somewhat analogous idea was used to make the world's smallest neutrino detector. A neutrino needs to pass through several light years worth of lead before there is a 50% chance of it being absorbed, but a vastly smaller amount of matter can disturb them, it's very slight but detectable. In this case the detector only weighed 14.6 kilograms: Milk jug?sized detector captures neutrinos in a whole new way > > *> I mean if you get refraction off an atomic nucleus here and there, > that's great and all but if the radiative flux is near background, then is > that going to be enough photons to make a complete image?* > They say even without attosecond precision they've improved the signal to noise ratio by many orders of magnitude in a noisy background environment. > >> the optical nuclear clock > > * > I imagine something like this would revolutionize > x-ray crystallography of proteins and what not.* > I think such a clock would revolutionize a lot of things, in one attosecond light can move a distance of only about 2 hydrogen atoms, and a Thorium Nuclear Clock (not to be confused with an atomic clock) could time things to a tenth of a attosecond. The science is there, now we just need to figure out how to engineer one. *> * > > > *I wonder if something similar could be done with ultrasound using > phonons. Ultrasound might be a better approach to imaging the brain then > x-rays provided you figure out a way to get the sound waves through the > skull.* That is a very interesting idea! John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 21:26:54 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 17:26:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL Message-ID: *Internet "father" Vinton Cerf speaks on AI, Sept. 11Vinton G. Cerf, vice president and "chief internet evangelist" for Google and one of the recognized "fathers of the internet," will speak at 2:30 p.m., Wednesday, Sept. 11, in Bldg. 4500-North, Wigner Auditorium. The title of his talk is "Risk factors in the Overhyping of AI and Machine Learning."Per Cerf's abstract: "Artificial Intelligence, especially Machine Learning have become part of an overhyped mantra (that goes for blockchain, too). It is vital that the expectations for these technologies be tempered by deeper appreciation for their strengths and weaknesses. ML is narrow and brittle, producing dramatic results but also failing dramatically (see Generative Adversarial Networks). Finally, ML is NOT Artificial General Intelligence."Cerf is the former senior vice president of Technology Strategy for MCI and the co-designer of the TCP/IP protocols and the architecture of the internet. He is the recipient of the National Medal of Technology and Presidential Medal of Freedom (both with colleague Robert E. Kahn) and the ACM Alan M. Turing award.* I've been saying the same thing, but I'm not Turing Award winner. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Sep 3 22:10:33 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 18:10:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?QWxwaGFaZXJvIOKAk1RoZSDigJhMdWN54oCZIG9mIHRoZSBF?= =?utf-8?q?merging_AI_Epoch?= Message-ID: AlphaZero ?The ?Lucy? of the Emerging AI Epoch John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Sep 4 19:53:25 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 12:53:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Dave Sill: "Risk factors in the Overhyping > of AI and Machine Learning." > > Per Cerf's abstract: "Artificial Intelligence, especially Machine > Learning have become part of an overhyped mantra (that goes for > blockchain, too). It is vital that the expectations for these > technologies be tempered by deeper appreciation for their strengths > and weaknesses. ML is narrow and brittle, producing dramatic results > but also failing dramatically (see Generative Adversarial Networks). I agree that current ML is narrow and brittle. However small biological brains are brittle as well. Think about how much difficulty glass windows give houseflies. But increased size is no barrier to failure. Humans fail dramatically also. Google "epic fail" for proof. I don't disagree with you, I just don't think anything you (and Cerf) have said detracts from the observation that artificial neural networks are approaching the functionality of biological ones at an encouraging rate. What dramatic failure of GANs are you referring to? > Finally, ML is NOT Artificial General Intelligence." [snip] Is a housefly Natural General Intelligence? How about your one of your amygdala in isolation? What exactly is general intelligence again? > I've been saying the same thing, but I'm not Turing Award winner. I certainly agree that ML is not "the Singularity" but what about it do you think is over-hyped? As far as I know, nobody is writing Alpha-zero fan-mail just yet. Stuart LaForge From sparge at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 21:26:51 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:26:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 4:22 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Dave Sill: > > "Risk factors in the Overhyping > > of AI and Machine Learning." > > > > Per Cerf's abstract: "Artificial Intelligence, especially Machine > > Learning have become part of an overhyped mantra (that goes for > > blockchain, too). It is vital that the expectations for these > > technologies be tempered by deeper appreciation for their strengths > > and weaknesses. ML is narrow and brittle, producing dramatic results > > but also failing dramatically (see Generative Adversarial Networks). > > I agree that current ML is narrow and brittle. However small > biological brains are brittle as well. Think about how much difficulty > glass windows give houseflies. > > But increased size is no barrier to failure. Humans fail dramatically > also. Google "epic fail" for proof. > > I don't disagree with you, I just don't think anything you (and Cerf) > have said detracts from the observation that artificial neural > networks are approaching the functionality of biological ones at an > encouraging rate. > > What dramatic failure of GANs are you referring to? > That's Cerf, not me. I don't know what he's referring to. I'll report back after the talk. > Finally, ML is NOT Artificial General Intelligence." > [snip] > > Is a housefly Natural General Intelligence? I suppose...but not very much of it. Nowhere near human level, which is what AGI generally refers to. > How about your one of your amygdala in isolation? Not really. > What exactly is general intelligence again? > Let's start with the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence *Artificial general intelligence (AGI) is the intelligence of a machine that has the capacity to understand or learn any intellectual task that a human being can. It is a primary goal of some artificial intelligence research and a common topic in science fiction and future studies. Some researchers refer to Artificial general intelligence as "strong AI",[1] "full AI"[2], "true AI" or as the ability of a machine to perform "general intelligent action";[3] others reserve "strong AI" for machines capable of experiencing consciousness.Some references emphasize a distinction between strong AI and "applied AI"[4] (also called "narrow AI"[1] or "weak AI"[5]): the use of software to study or accomplish specific problem solving or reasoning tasks. Weak AI, in contrast to strong AI, does not attempt to perform the full range of human cognitive abilities.As of 2017, over forty organizations worldwide are doing active research on AGI.[6]* *Requirements[edit]Main article: Cognitive scienceVarious criteria for intelligence have been proposed (most famously the Turing test) but to date, there is no definition that satisfies everyone.[7] However, there is wide agreement among artificial intelligence researchers that intelligence is required to do the following:[8]reason, use strategy, solve puzzles, and make judgments under uncertainty;represent knowledge, including commonsense knowledge;plan;learn;communicate in natural language;and integrate all these skills towards common goals.* *Other important capabilities include the ability to sense (e.g. see) and the ability to act (e.g. move and manipulate objects) in the world where intelligent behaviour is to be observed.[9] This would include an ability to detect and respond to hazard.[10] Many interdisciplinary approaches to intelligence (e.g. cognitive science, computational intelligence and decision making) tend to emphasise the need to consider additional traits such as imagination (taken as the ability to form mental images and concepts that were not programmed in)[11] and autonomy.[12] Computer based systems that exhibit many of these capabilities do exist (e.g. see computational creativity, automated reasoning, decision support system, robot, evolutionary computation, intelligent agent), but not yet at human levels.* > I've been saying the same thing, but I'm not Turing Award winner. > > I certainly agree that ML is not "the Singularity" but what about it > do you think is over-hyped? As far as I know, nobody is writing > Alpha-zero fan-mail just yet. > Oh, you missed John's fan-email, "AlphaZero ?The ?Lucy? of the Emerging AI Epoch"? AI has been over-hyped for 50 years despite chronically under-delivering. Now that deep learning has had some success, the hype train has again left the station. Don't get me wrong: this is good stuff, with plenty of practical applications. I just don't think we're on the verge of AGI yet. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 4 22:18:58 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:18:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Seemingly missing from all the intelligence definitions in your post is the ability to adapt to novel situations, which to me is really important. This must be really hard for an AI, since it cannot generalize from past problems (I am assuming that that's all it can do, which might be wrong). bill w On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 4:30 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 4:22 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Quoting Dave Sill: >> >> "Risk factors in the Overhyping >> > of AI and Machine Learning." >> > >> > Per Cerf's abstract: "Artificial Intelligence, especially Machine >> > Learning have become part of an overhyped mantra (that goes for >> > blockchain, too). It is vital that the expectations for these >> > technologies be tempered by deeper appreciation for their strengths >> > and weaknesses. ML is narrow and brittle, producing dramatic results >> > but also failing dramatically (see Generative Adversarial Networks). >> >> I agree that current ML is narrow and brittle. However small >> biological brains are brittle as well. Think about how much difficulty >> glass windows give houseflies. >> >> But increased size is no barrier to failure. Humans fail dramatically >> also. Google "epic fail" for proof. >> >> I don't disagree with you, I just don't think anything you (and Cerf) >> have said detracts from the observation that artificial neural >> networks are approaching the functionality of biological ones at an >> encouraging rate. >> >> What dramatic failure of GANs are you referring to? >> > > That's Cerf, not me. I don't know what he's referring to. I'll report back > after the talk. > > > Finally, ML is NOT Artificial General Intelligence." >> [snip] >> >> Is a housefly Natural General Intelligence? > > > I suppose...but not very much of it. Nowhere near human level, which is > what AGI generally refers to. > > >> How about your one of your amygdala in isolation? > > > Not really. > > >> What exactly is general intelligence again? >> > > Let's start with the Wikipedia entry: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence > > > > > > > *Artificial general intelligence (AGI) is the intelligence of a machine > that has the capacity to understand or learn any intellectual task that a > human being can. It is a primary goal of some artificial intelligence > research and a common topic in science fiction and future studies. Some > researchers refer to Artificial general intelligence as "strong AI",[1] > "full AI"[2], "true AI" or as the ability of a machine to perform "general > intelligent action";[3] others reserve "strong AI" for machines capable of > experiencing consciousness.Some references emphasize a distinction between > strong AI and "applied AI"[4] (also called "narrow AI"[1] or "weak AI"[5]): > the use of software to study or accomplish specific problem solving or > reasoning tasks. Weak AI, in contrast to strong AI, does not attempt to > perform the full range of human cognitive abilities.As of 2017, over forty > organizations worldwide are doing active research on AGI.[6]* > > > > > > > > > > > *Requirements[edit]Main article: Cognitive scienceVarious criteria for > intelligence have been proposed (most famously the Turing test) but to > date, there is no definition that satisfies everyone.[7] However, there is > wide agreement among artificial intelligence researchers that intelligence > is required to do the following:[8]reason, use strategy, solve puzzles, and > make judgments under uncertainty;represent knowledge, including commonsense > knowledge;plan;learn;communicate in natural language;and integrate all > these skills towards common goals.* > > *Other important capabilities include the ability to sense (e.g. see) and > the ability to act (e.g. move and manipulate objects) in the world where > intelligent behaviour is to be observed.[9] This would include an ability > to detect and respond to hazard.[10] Many interdisciplinary approaches to > intelligence (e.g. cognitive science, computational intelligence and > decision making) tend to emphasise the need to consider additional traits > such as imagination (taken as the ability to form mental images and > concepts that were not programmed in)[11] and autonomy.[12] Computer based > systems that exhibit many of these capabilities do exist (e.g. see > computational creativity, automated reasoning, decision support system, > robot, evolutionary computation, intelligent agent), but not yet at human > levels.* > > > I've been saying the same thing, but I'm not Turing Award winner. >> >> I certainly agree that ML is not "the Singularity" but what about it >> do you think is over-hyped? As far as I know, nobody is writing >> Alpha-zero fan-mail just yet. >> > > Oh, you missed John's fan-email, "AlphaZero ?The ?Lucy? of the Emerging AI > Epoch"? > > AI has been over-hyped for 50 years despite chronically under-delivering. > Now that deep learning has had some success, the hype train has again left > the station. > > Don't get me wrong: this is good stuff, with plenty of practical > applications. I just don't think we're on the verge of AGI yet. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 00:22:13 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:22:13 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Having a sanctum sanctorum... Message-ID: The sanctum sanctorum of Doctor Strange, has always enthralled me. I love the idea of people having studies/sanctum sanctorums, to work, study, play, be creative, and have privacy from the world, in a special and tucked away environment. Having grown up on comic books, I remember how various heroes and villains had lairs and places of contemplation and sanctuary. I assume that in future eras, transhumans and posthumans will continue to have this desire, and will have some utterly amazing places to retire to, and work on their goals and dreams. What is your own present home office/sanctum sanctorum like? And how would you imagine your future private refuge for study, if you were a transhuman/posthuman, with access to amazing resources? Thank you! https://imgur.com/GiwUHFI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 5 00:34:05 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Having a sanctum sanctorum... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01d56381$9ffe93d0$dffbbb70$@rainier66.com> John Grigg! How the heck are ye, me lad? Last I heard you were heading off to the Philippines to attempt holy matrimony. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 5:22 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: [ExI] Having a sanctum sanctorum... The sanctum sanctorum of Doctor Strange, has always enthralled me. I love the idea of people having studies/sanctum sanctorums, to work, study, play, be creative, and have privacy from the world, in a special and tucked away environment. Having grown up on comic books, I remember how various heroes and villains had lairs and places of contemplation and sanctuary. I assume that in future eras, transhumans and posthumans will continue to have this desire, and will have some utterly amazing places to retire to, and work on their goals and dreams. What is your own present home office/sanctum sanctorum like? And how would you imagine your future private refuge for study, if you were a transhuman/posthuman, with access to amazing resources? Thank you! https://imgur.com/GiwUHFI -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 00:35:12 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:35:12 +0800 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When the Extropian email list is no more, AND the last raven from the Tower of London is dead, the end of the world will be nigh! Lol At that point the Singularity will occur/and or the Second Coming. I deeply love this place and the people on it. And so I hope it lasts many decades or even centuries to come... I had no idea it had been down, but then I have been out of touch. Hugs to everyone! On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:10 AM ilsa wrote: > I have missed the joy of dancing digital dialogue about things I'm very > interested in and have no one in my everyday life to talk with. I come to > listen to the stories of the cosmos. Welcome Back, respect and gratitude, > ilsa > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:55 PM wrote: > >> >> >> Welcome back ExI! >> >> >> >> Same general rules as before: >> >> >> >> Be kind to each other. We are among friends and allies here. >> >> >> >> Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know. >> >> >> >> Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*. >> >> >> >> Welcome back! >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> >> * For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand >> knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much >> anything else. Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone >> outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was: >> >> >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 5 04:22:51 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 21:22:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] we're baaaack! In-Reply-To: References: <009601d556d0$19c19140$4d44b3c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002501d563a1$9505fde0$bf11f9a0$@rainier66.com> John, good to see you back. The ExI server was down for about 3 weeks due to a misunderstanding with the company, but no worries, we have found a way to make sure that doesn?t happen again. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 5:35 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Grigg Subject: Re: [ExI] we're baaaack! When the Extropian email list is no more, AND the last raven from the Tower of London is dead, the end of the world will be nigh! Lol At that point the Singularity will occur/and or the Second Coming. I deeply love this place and the people on it. And so I hope it lasts many decades or even centuries to come... I had no idea it had been down, but then I have been out of touch. Hugs to everyone! On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:10 AM ilsa > wrote: I have missed the joy of dancing digital dialogue about things I'm very interested in and have no one in my everyday life to talk with. I come to listen to the stories of the cosmos. Welcome Back, respect and gratitude, ilsa On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 1:55 PM > wrote: Welcome back ExI! Same general rules as before: Be kind to each other. We are among friends and allies here. Eschew US politics at every opportunity: we already know. Carry yourself as if you were at a college party*. Welcome back! spike * For those who were engineering majors and have no actual firsthand knowledge of the term, do consult a friend who majored in pretty much anything else. Or if you are like plenty of engineers and never met anyone outside your major, go to the same source where I found out what it was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Sep 5 04:03:20 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 21:03:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL Message-ID: <20190904210320.Horde.NqoSP09y4vWeMimV7sdJmPy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Dave Sill: > Oh, you missed John's fan-email, "AlphaZero ?The ?Lucy? of the Emerging AI > Epoch"? John Clark did not write that, he just posted a link to a book review for "Novacene: The Coming Age of Hyperintelligence" which is James Lovelock's new book. Considering Lovelock is the originator of the Gaia hypothesis, his new book is in keeping with his tendency for grandiose hyperbole. Who knows, maybe future historians will consider AlphaZero to be some significant ancestral form of AI. Lovelock is over 100 years old and a cryonocist so maybe he is trying to curry favor with the future AGI so that he will be resurrected sooner rather than later. I don't think he is hyping the Singularity any more than Kurzweil and company. Remember what list this is after all. ;-) Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 11:25:43 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:25:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 6:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Seemingly missing from all the intelligence definitions in your post is > the ability to adapt to novel situations, which to me is really important. > If you had never even known there was a game called "chess" but then one day you were shown the basic rules of the game (and nothing else) and then told you had 24 hours to teach yourself to become the best Chess playing entity on the planet, and you did exactly that, and then you did the same thing with GO and Shogi (both more complex than Chess) wouldn't you say that proved you had the ability to adapt to novel situations? Well AlphaZero did all that and it didn't use brute force to do it either. Stockfish is another Chess program but unlike AlphaZero it didn't teach itself humans did. Stockfish could easily beat any human player but it couldn't beat AlphaZero despite the fact that Stockfish was running on a faster computer and could evaluate 70,000,000 positions a second while AlphaZero's much smaller computer could only do 80,000. And AI is becoming less narrow and brittle every day. GO is played on a 19 by 19 grid, but if you changed it to 20 by 20 or 18 by 18 and gave it another 24 hours to teach itself AlphaZero would be the best player in the world at that new game too, and all without any human help. It's true AlphaZero is not infinitely adaptable, but then humans aren't either. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 12:07:35 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:07:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Having a sanctum sanctorum... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 8:26 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > The sanctum sanctorum of Doctor Strange, has always enthralled me. I > love the idea of people having studies/sanctum sanctorums, to work, study, > play, be creative, and have privacy from the world, in a special and tucked > away environment. Having grown up on comic books, I remember how various > heroes and villains had lairs and places of contemplation and sanctuary. I > assume that in future eras, transhumans and posthumans will continue to > have this desire, and will have some utterly amazing places to retire to, > and work on their goals and dreams.* > There is something like that in Dennis E Taylor's audiobook "We Are Legion (We Are Bob)" the first book in his Bobverse series: We Are Legion (We Are Bob) Bob dies, gets frozen, gets unfrozen, and then gets uploaded into a computer running a starship capable of near light speed and with the capacity to make copies of itself. Bob decides to make lots of copies of himself and his spaceship and explore the galaxy. Although they have no body that doesn't bother the Bobs much because each Bob has made his own individual sanctum sanctorum in excellent virtual reality. One Bob has a study like the sort you'd see Sherlock Holmes in, another has a mountain chalet and another has a beautiful beach house, one of my favorites was a Bob who is slowly floating over the French countryside in a giant Zeppelin only a few hundred feet off the ground; and all this while they're all really in deep interstellar space. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 12:15:50 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:15:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: <20190904210320.Horde.NqoSP09y4vWeMimV7sdJmPy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190904210320.Horde.NqoSP09y4vWeMimV7sdJmPy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 5:48 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Dave Sill: > > > Oh, you missed John's fan-email, "AlphaZero ?The ?Lucy? of the Emerging > AI > > Epoch"? > > John Clark did not write that, he just posted a link to a book review > for "Novacene: The Coming Age of Hyperintelligence" which is James > Lovelock's new book. > Yes, John wrote the email. That's what I said. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 14:01:45 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:01:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Well, John, knowing the rules is not exactly the case when a situation is novel. Here's what I think should happen: The AI plays a program that is highly successful at chess. The AI is told every time it moves in a way that is illegal and of course it notices the moves of the other player. It is told when failure occurs: piece lost, checkmate. Now that might be really simple for a good AI. I wouldn't know. It might figure out the rules and scoring in a short period of time and then proceed as usual. But that way at least it is novel. bill w On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 6:30 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 6:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Seemingly missing from all the intelligence definitions in your post is >> the ability to adapt to novel situations, which to me is really important. >> > > If you had never even known there was a game called "chess" but then one > day you were shown the basic rules of the game (and nothing else) and then > told you had 24 hours to teach yourself to become the best Chess playing > entity on the planet, and you did exactly that, and then you did the same > thing with GO and Shogi (both more complex than Chess) wouldn't you say > that proved you had the ability to adapt to novel situations? Well > AlphaZero did all that and it didn't use brute force to do it either. > > Stockfish is another Chess program but unlike AlphaZero it didn't teach > itself humans did. Stockfish could easily beat any human player but it > couldn't beat AlphaZero despite the fact that Stockfish was running on a > faster computer and could evaluate 70,000,000 positions a second > while AlphaZero's much smaller computer could only do 80,000. > > And AI is becoming less narrow and brittle every day. GO is played on a 19 > by 19 grid, but if you changed it to 20 by 20 or 18 by 18 and gave it > another 24 hours to teach itself AlphaZero would be the best player in the > world at that new game too, and all without any human help. It's true > AlphaZero is not infinitely adaptable, but then humans aren't either. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 14:08:45 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:08:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 4, 2019 at 6:22 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Seemingly missing from all the intelligence definitions in your post is > the ability to adapt to novel situations, which to me is really important. > I think that's covered by "reason, use strategy, solve puzzles, and make judgments under uncertainty". -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 5 14:23:59 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:23:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <009c01d563f5$8f5705c0$ae051140$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL >?The AI plays a program that is highly successful at chess. The AI is told every time it moves in a way that is illegal and of course it notices the moves of the other player. It is told when failure occurs: piece lost, checkmate?bill w There is something here that is remarkable indeed, subtle in a way. AI chess has been attempted by learning algorithms in the past, but the apparent breakthrough came in coding in the ability of the software to make inferences on some of the first principles rather than dictating those to the software based on human experience. We have over 500 years of collective chess experience with the game in its modern form. An opening book published in 1510 is still in use to this day. We have guiding principles in chess such as center control, early development of pieces, pawn structure and so on which are programmed into the software to start with. As I understand it, the current AI experiments do not code this information into the software. They (somehow) let the software figure them out. From my point of view, that qualifies as (limited) intelligence, for it is making inferences the way humans and other beasts do. I could dig into the source code of course, and see how it works, at which time I would come to understand how it works and it would no longer be intelligence, but rather just sophisticated code. We have already defined computer algorithms which can be understood as not intelligence. It is just code, run by an unconscious dumb machine. But until I do that, it appears intelligent from my point of view. As we get more sophisticated we run the risk of getting so smart, we figure out how our own brains work, at which time we become stupid by our own definition of smart. Sigh. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 16:00:29 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:06 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, John, knowing the rules is not exactly the case when a situation is > novel. Here's what I think should happen: > The AI plays a program that is highly successful at chess. The AI is told > every time it moves in a way that is illegal and of course it notices the > moves of the other player. It is told when failure occurs: piece lost, > checkmate. > Now that might be really simple for a good AI. I wouldn't know. It might > figure out the rules and scoring in a short period of time and then proceed > as usual. But that way at least it is novel. > If after 24 hours of self teaching AlphaZero can tell the difference between a very good Chess move and a superhumanly brilliant Chess move (and it can) then I don't think it would take it long to tell the difference between a legal Chess move and a illegal one. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 5 16:28:34 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:28:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Vint Cerf on AI, at ORNL In-Reply-To: References: <997026341.1570083.1567624049951@mail.yahoo.com> <20190904125325.Horde.vMDJixM0PUeq1GM4j-q8uS_@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <009c01d563f5$8f5705c0$ae051140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010501d56406$f6dc45f0$e494d1d0$@rainier66.com> Bill do indulge me to post this forward to the list. This was an offline discussion, but it is very much in line with the topic at hand. From: William Flynn Wallace >>?As we get more sophisticated we run the risk of getting so smart, we figure out how our own brains work, at which time we become stupid by our own definition of smart. spike >?I do not understand your last phrase. The more we know about psychology the stupider we get? bill w Ja. Just as we do with software, we keep moving the goal posts. Notice how far they have already moved for software, sheesh. Consider what science has done. It has persistently demoted mankind. At one time we were the center of the universe. Then Galileo came along, the sun became the center of the universe. Then Darwin gave us the intellectual tools to demote ourselves again, from the special creation of that invisible guy (who lives in the women?s locker room at the U of Hawaii) to a species of ape. Then Einstein showed there isn?t a center of the universe, and at every step along the way, we became dumber by our own definition. Now psychology tells us we might eventually be able to understand how our own brains work, at which time we can write sims of ourselves. We already have software which can understand speech and make pretty good inferences for what we want, which is a functional equivalent of what a phone receptionist does, and I can show you some phone receptionists who aren?t as good as phone software. The more we know about psychology, the more predictable we apes become and the dumber we get by our own definition of smart. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 16:41:31 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:41:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] dumb/smart; to spike Message-ID: I agree that we have been demoted time after time from God's children to semi-aware apes. But wait? Who did that? We did. We figured it out. We are not special because of a god, but we are special because we can figure things out without a god. How is that dumb? By our own definition of smart, you say. So, just what is that? I think the above shows we are very smart. We can overcome our ego bias and find that our egos are not as important as we thought they were. That's pretty smart. Maybe eventually we will figure out that we are not any better than some advanced AI. I think that's smart. Now we can sit back and let AIs run our lives while we chug beer and spit in the campfire. We have the perfect tool. From stone axe to godlike AI. Pretty smart. I think it bothers a lot of people - the Singularity - at the same time it excites them. But it is way , way farther off than most think, in my opinion. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 20:49:00 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:49:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] silly question Message-ID: Suppose you are on another planet which has an atmosphere. Will the skies be blue? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Sep 5 21:03:02 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:03:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] silly question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004601d5642d$4e60a480$eb21ed80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] silly question Suppose you are on another planet which has an atmosphere. Will the skies be blue? bill w Rayleigh scattering is a function of the chemical composition of the atmosphere as well as the density profile. Every planet has an atmosphere. Even Mercury has an atmosphere (not much of one, a trillionth of ours perhaps.) Venus has an atmosphere, but skies there are white if you are high enough, probably nearly black from down at the surface. If a planet has an atmosphere like ours with a gravitational field like ours and is a similar distance from a star like ours, good chance that planet would have blue skies. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 21:05:24 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:05:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] silly question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Suppose you are on another planet which has an atmosphere. Will the skies > be blue? > Depends on the atmosphere and local star. Obviously there are conditions under which it is possible. There are also conditions where blue will not be the primary visible wavelength that scatters to the ground during local mid-day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 5 23:57:41 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:57:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] silly question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What if the atmosphere were something like methane? Would that matter? bill w On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Suppose you are on another planet which has an atmosphere. Will the >> skies be blue? >> > > Depends on the atmosphere and local star. Obviously there are conditions > under which it is possible. There are also conditions where blue will not > be the primary visible wavelength that scatters to the ground during local > mid-day. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 00:13:06 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:13:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] silly question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You're in luck: we actually have pictures of that, at least for our own star & Titan's atmosphere. https://lightsinthedark.com/2011/12/18/the-colors-of-titans-sky/ for instance - still blue at the outer layer, then becoming much like smog/haze on Earth. On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 5:00 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What if the atmosphere were something like methane? Would that matter? > bill w > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:14 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 1:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Suppose you are on another planet which has an atmosphere. Will the >>> skies be blue? >>> >> >> Depends on the atmosphere and local star. Obviously there are conditions >> under which it is possible. There are also conditions where blue will not >> be the primary visible wavelength that scatters to the ground during local >> mid-day. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 04:59:08 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:59:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Lovelock and cryonics Message-ID: Is Lovelock public about being signed up for cryonics? If so I will add that to the category list on his Wikipedia page. Keith From avant at sollegro.com Fri Sep 6 01:49:12 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 18:49:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Rejuvenation of aging thymus Message-ID: <20190905184912.Horde.O2zaKHl4VVT3aK-dPjgfcIx@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> This is pretty good news. The thymus is the gland in which our T-cells (white blood cells that fight infections) get trained to distinguish self-proteins which belong in the body from foreign-proteins which mark invaders like viruses as well as malfunctioning cells like cancer that are to be destroyed by the immune system. The thymus works great up until adolescence after which most of the active tissue gets replaced by inactive fat so that the aged thymus becomes a shadow of its former self. There was a small clinical trial in California for a cocktail of human growth hormone and 2 diabetes drugs that apparently reverses aging of the thymus and thereby rejuvenates the immune system. It does so by reversing the epigenetic changes (methylation) to DNA that cause thymic shutdown and aging. ---------------------------------------------------------- https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02638-w A small clinical study in California has suggested for the first time that it might be possible to reverse the body?s epigenetic clock, which measures a person?s biological age. For one year, nine healthy volunteers took a cocktail of three common drugs ? growth hormone and two diabetes medications ? and on average shed 2.5 years of their biological ages, measured by analysing marks on a person?s genomes. The participants? immune systems also showed signs of rejuvenation. The results were a surprise even to the trial organizers ? but researchers caution that the findings are preliminary because the trial was small and did not include a control arm. ?I?d expected to see slowing down of the clock, but not a reversal,? says geneticist Steve Horvath at the University of California, Los Angeles, who conducted the epigenetic analysis. ?That felt kind of futuristic.? The findings were published on 5 September in Aging Cell. ?It may be that there is an effect,? says cell biologist Wolfgang Wagner at the University of Aachen in Germany. ?But the results are not rock solid because the study is very small and not well controlled.? Marks of life The epigenetic clock relies on the body?s epigenome, which comprises chemical modifications, such as methyl groups, that tag DNA. The pattern of these tags changes during the course of life, and tracks a person?s biological age, which can lag behind or exceed chronological age. Scientists construct epigenetic clocks by selecting sets of DNA-methylation sites across the genome. In the past few years, Horvath ? a pioneer in epigenetic-clock research ? has developed some of the most accurate ones. The latest trial was designed mainly to test whether growth hormone could be used safely in humans to restore tissue in the thymus gland. The gland, which is in the chest between the lungs and the breastbone, is crucial for efficient immune function. White blood cells are produced in bone marrow and then mature inside the thymus, where they become specialized T cells that help the body to fight infections and cancers. Butgland starts to shrink after puberty and increasingly becomes clogged with fat. Evidence from animal and some human studies shows that growth hormone stimulates regeneration of the thymus. But this hormone can also promote diabetes, so the trial included two widely used anti-diabetic drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and metformin, in the treatment cocktail. The Thymus Regeneration, Immunorestoration and Insulin Mitigation (TRIIM) trial tested 9 white men between 51 and 65 years of age. It was led by immunologist Gregory Fahy, the chief scientific officer and co-founder of Intervene Immune in Los Angeles, and was approved by the US Food and Drug Administration in May 2015. It began a few months later at Stanford Medical Center in Palo Alto, California. Fahy?s fascination with the thymus goes back to 1986, when he read a study in which scientists transplanted growth-hormone-secreting cells into rats, apparently rejuvenating their immune systems. He was surprised that no one seemed to have followed up on the result with a clinical trial. A decade later, at age 46, he treated himself for a month with growth hormone and DHEA, and found some regeneration of his own thymus. In the TRIIM trial, the scientists took blood samples from participants during the treatment period. Tests showed that blood-cell count was rejuvenated in each of the participants. The researchers also used magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to determine the composition of the thymus at the start and end of the study. They found that in seven participants, accumulated fat had been replaced with regenerated thymus tissue. Rewinding the clock Checking the effect of the drugs on the participants? epigenetic clocks was an afterthought. The clinical study had finished when Fahy approached Horvath to conduct an analysis. Horvath used four different epigenetic clocks to assess each patient?s biological age, and he found significant reversal for each trial participant in all of the tests. ?This told me that the biological effect of the treatment was robust,? he says. What?s more, the effect persisted in the six participants who provided a final blood sample six months after stopping the trial, he says. ?Because we could follow the changes within each individual, and because the effect was so very strong in each of them, I am optimistic,? says Horvath. Researchers are already testing metformin for its potential to protect against common age-related diseases, such as cancer and heart disease. Fahy says that the three drugs in the cocktail might contribute separately to the effect on biological ageing through unique mechanisms. Intervene Immune is planning a larger study that will include people of different age groups and ethnicities, and women. Regenerating the thymus could be useful in people who have underactive immune systems, including older people, he says. Pneumonia and other infectious diseases are a major cause of death in people older than 70. Cancer immunologist Sam Palmer at the Herriot-Watt University in Edinburgh says that it is exciting to see the expansion of immune cells in the blood. This ?has huge implications not just for infectious disease but also for cancer and ageing in general?. doi: 10.1038/d41586-019-02638-w References 1. Fahy, G. M. et al. Aging Cell https://doi.org/10.1111/acel.13028 (2019). Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:16 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:59:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] silly question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: On Mars the sky is only blue at sunrise and sunset because the atmosphere is very thin and that's the only time Rayleigh scattering (named I think after the famous British physicist Lord Scattering, but maybe not) becomes significant. During most of the day the sky on Mars is pink due to all the iron oxide in the air. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 18:44:47 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 11:44:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Power beaming in space Message-ID: There may be a few of you beside Spike who are interested in space. Power Beaming - Request for Information Solicitation Number: N00173-19-RFI-AL06 https://www.fbo.gov/spg/DON/ONR/N00173/N00173-19-RFI-AL06/listing.html I might copy interesting responses to the Google Groups Power Satellite Economics. Best wishes, Keith From avant at sollegro.com Fri Sep 6 06:54:06 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 23:54:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Lovelock and cryonics Message-ID: <20190905235406.Horde.MMKBpu_nf2ZWv-ZHJa7K7nN@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Keith Henson wrote: > Is Lovelock public about being signed up for cryonics? If so I will > add that to the category list on his Wikipedia page. I don't actually know if he is signed up for cryonics himself. He might just be a cryobiologist who is influential in cryonics. He did bring rats back from 0 degrees Celsius way back in 1955. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1365902/ Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 20:07:07 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:07:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= Message-ID: The study was conducted by cryobiologist Dr. Gregory Fahy and involved Human Growth Hormone and two common diabetes drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and metformin. The results are interesting because it didn't just slow down the biological clock it reversed it, but it may not be rock solid because the clinical study was small ( just 9 white men between 51 and 65) and it did not contain a control. The discovery was an accident, the drug trial was set up to see if growth hormone could be safely used to restore the thymus gland and anti-diabetic drugs were only included because growth hormone can cause diabetes. After the trial was over they found that in 7 of the 9 men the thymus was restored, and then as an afterthought Fahy checked on their epigenetic clock and got a surprise. It seems to me the next step should be to try this drug cocktail in mice and see if they live longer. Drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body?s ?epigenetic clock John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 20:15:09 2019 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 13:15:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cross post Message-ID: I sometimes read and comment on Gail Tvenberg's Our Finite World blog. Gail was an editor with The Oil Drum and edited/published two of my early papers on power satellites. This post by Kowalainen is in reply to Norman, dedicated doomer. (Lightly edited.) It seems like it would interest Extropians of old, if not the current readership. Keith @Norman, Your human chauvinism proves nothing. You are so close, yet so far away. Is it that huge of a cognitive leap to realize that most economic activity of today is directed towards more automation, computation and information exchange? It is an absolute fact. An observable continuation of the ingenuity originating in the first living organism, to hunter-gatherers and modern civilization, yes, even as far back as evolution leads us. It is a process which converts raw materials and energy into ever greater complexity and sophistication. Technology together with enabling capital is a process which is its natural continuation. It is not a question of using technology for mass production for the benefit of mankind, it is about using advanced production methods to render more advanced pieces of technology possible to starve off the decadence and despair of a status quo, a trap which past civilizations fell into and self-destructed in an 0rgy of decadence, horror, and perpetual war. In a situation of energy surplus, those means of production can and will be used for mass production. Once resource limits hit, it will no longer be available for the masses. Henry Ford did not advance science and engineering one bit, as a businessman, he realized that there is money to be made by using existing technology to mass-produce personal transport. The increase in economic activity and prosperity which he, and other businessmen created by doing so, supercharged this process by a magnitude. Adding cheap energy, fiat currency and debt increased this by another few magnitudes. Now, what does this entail when you follow this process it to its logical limit? Well, of course, it means that the whole show will be totally automated. The minuscule surplus which will be left for human consumption. Whatever ?mankind? will be at that late stage of human civilization. If it even makes sense at all to speak about mankind then. Thus believing that there must be a human end-user is a delusion. Once there is a system in place which closely mimics the fundamental principles of nature and enables those principles to be enhanced by technology, they will be created and rendering people irrelevant. Thus our job is complete and we can fade into obscurity as our ?children? pushes for the stars. From dsunley at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 20:51:41 2019 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:51:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It sounds awesome if it works, but my first response upon reading it was "feeding a drug cocktail to 9 guys, with no control group? I'm not sure what you call that, but 'science' doesn't seem like quite the right word." On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 2:10 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The study was conducted by cryobiologist Dr. Gregory Fahy and involved > Human Growth Hormone and two common diabetes drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone > (DHEA) and metformin. The results are interesting because it didn't just > slow down the biological clock it reversed it, but it may not be rock solid > because the clinical study was small ( just 9 white men between 51 and 65) > and it did not contain a control. The discovery was an accident, the drug > trial was set up to see if growth hormone could be safely used to restore > the thymus gland and anti-diabetic drugs were only included because > growth hormone can cause diabetes. After the trial was over they found that > in 7 of the 9 men the thymus was restored, and then as an afterthought > Fahy checked on their epigenetic clock and got a surprise. > > It seems to me the next step should be to try this drug cocktail in mice > and see if they live longer. > > Drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body?s ?epigenetic clock > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 21:50:55 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:50:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darin Sunley I'm not sure what you call that, but 'science' doesn't seem like quite the right word." Sure, but it cost next to nothing, probably did not have to get permission from anyone but the SS. Lots of good science has been birthed from 'Oh what the Hell, something might happen'. Human growth does something - let's find out what. billw > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 2:10 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The study was conducted by cryobiologist Dr. Gregory Fahy and involved >> Human Growth Hormone and two common diabetes drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone >> (DHEA) and metformin. The results are interesting because it didn't just >> slow down the biological clock it reversed it, but it may not be rock solid >> because the clinical study was small ( just 9 white men between 51 and 65) >> and it did not contain a control. The discovery was an accident, the drug >> trial was set up to see if growth hormone could be safely used to restore >> the thymus gland and anti-diabetic drugs were only included because >> growth hormone can cause diabetes. After the trial was over they found that >> in 7 of the 9 men the thymus was restored, and then as an afterthought >> Fahy checked on their epigenetic clock and got a surprise. >> >> It seems to me the next step should be to try this drug cocktail in mice >> and see if they live longer. >> >> Drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body?s ?epigenetic clock >> >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 6 23:09:11 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 18:09:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] well, spit Message-ID: Mouthwash erases exercise benefits: https://www.foxnews.com/health/mouthwash-exercise-blood-pressure bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 04:51:51 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 12:51:51 +0800 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! Message-ID: "China is on track to surpass the United States by the end of this year, according to the National Science Board. In 2016, annual scientific publications from China outnumbered those from the United States for the first time. ?There seems to be a sea change in how people are talking about Chinese science,? said Alanna Krolikowski, a Chinese science expert at Missouri University of Science and Technology. Foreign observers, many of whom were once condescending, now ?are rather in awe at what the Chinese policies have accomplished.? The scientific advances are a small piece of China?s larger ambitions. President Xi Jinping aims to supplant the United States as the world?s economic superpower within three decades. In October, Xi vowed to produce ?a world-class army by 2050.? https://beta.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/china-challenges-american-dominance-of-science/2018/06/03/c1e0cfe4-48d5-11e8-827e-190efaf1f1ee_story.html?noredirect=on https://eos.org/articles/china-catching-up-to-united-states-in-research-and-development What should be done to preserve the technological power of the West, against a resurgent and tyrannical China? John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 05:35:32 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:35:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 9:55 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What should be done to preserve the technological power of the West, > against a resurgent and tyrannical China? > Remove the Republican party from office. Their policies encourage America's economic decline. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 11:41:15 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 07:41:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>> What should be done to preserve the technological power of the West, >> against a resurgent and tyrannical China? * >> > > Remove the Republican party from office. Their policies encourage > America's economic decline. > Truer words were never spoken! And the best way to remove the Republican party from office is NOT to vote for some idiotic third party candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning even one electoral vote. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 13:59:07 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:59:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] In 3 years 120 million workers will need to be retrained due to AI Message-ID: This will cause a political earthquake of epic size and why traditional libertarian philosophy has got to be modified if we don't want blood in the streets. In the next 3 years 120 million workers will need to be retrained due to AI John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 14:14:24 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:14:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] In 3 years 120 million workers will need to be retrained due to AI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well. there are certainly jobs around the South. ICE has raided and jailed hundreds of workers, aka Latinos, and many of the ones remaining are not going to work. Like to debone dark meat? Call Koch. bill w On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This will cause a political earthquake of epic size and why traditional > libertarian philosophy has got to be modified if we don't want blood in the > streets. > > In the next 3 years 120 million workers will need to be retrained due to AI > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 16:31:52 2019 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:31:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 4:45 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *>> What should be done to preserve the technological power of the West, >>> against a resurgent and tyrannical China? * >>> >> > Remove the Republican party from office. Their policies encourage >> America's economic decline. >> > > Truer words were never spoken! And the best way to remove the Republican > party from office is NOT to vote for some idiotic third party candidate who > doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning even one electoral > vote. > I don't just mean Trump. Indeed, a monomaniacal focus just on Trump would be redundant. I also mean the Senators, the Representatives, the Governors, the state legislators - any and every partisan race. In many cases, where a Democrat can not be run or has no chance, this does absolutely mean a third party or independent candidate - and probably a conservative who might fit within the Republicans, but owes no loyalty to what that party has become. If done completely, this would likely (after a few election cycles) result in one of those third parties replacing the Republicans as the second major party. For instance: the California Republican party is already a distinct minority, long since out of power. But how might they be removed entirely, and replaced with someone who can represent conservative interests without loyalty to out-of-state interests counterproductive even to the conservative Californians? There are conservatives and they deserve proportionate representation - but for all that (most of) the elected Californian Republcans disavow Trump and his backers privately, their ties to him hamper their ability to represent their constituents. They could do a better job in another party or as independents, but good luck convincing them of that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 20:41:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:41:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] libertarian horror story Message-ID: Yes, the gov. is attempting to interfere with our sex lives again and we have keep the faith and keep on doing what we've been doing in protest. You will not believe what they have done: https://www.slashgear.com/cdc-warns-against-kissing-chickens-amid-deadly-salmonella-outbreak-06590424/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 7 22:03:25 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:03:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This article came from the September 5 2019 New-scientist magazine: == *Drug cocktail seems to reverse biological signs of ageing in people* Is this the world?s first anti-ageing drug? Scientists have made people younger for the first time, or so they think. Nine men took a year-long drug regime that appeared to reverse the ageing process, leaving them one-and-a-half years younger ? biologically ? than when they started. The clinical trial was the first to investigate the possibility that a drug might be able to reverse the biological signs of ageing, increasing lifespan. However, the results are limited by the fact that this was a feasibility study without a placebo. The men, aged 51 to 65, took a drug cocktail involving recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH), three to four times a week for a year. At the beginning and end of the trial they had their biological age measured. We all have a chronological age ? the number of candles on our birthday cake ? and an epigenetic, or biological age, which is a measure of how quickly the cells in our body are deteriorating compared with the general population. These two figures can differ, and our epigenetic age is often a better predictor of lifespan. The researchers used four different tests of epigenetic age. On average, across the four tests, the volunteers? epigenetic age was 1.5 years younger than it was at the beginning of the treatment. This means someone who had an epigenetic age of 55, say, at the beginning of the trial had an epigenetic age of 53.5 at the end of the year-long trial. The most advanced test, ?GrimAge? ? named after the Grim Reaper ? showed a 2-year decrease in epigenetic versus chronological age that persisted six months after the men stopped taking the drug therapy. GrimAge determines your epigenetic age by analysing chemical tags that are added or removed to DNA, which in turn influence which genes are switched on and off. This is called methylation and changes to this process can be used to predict your lifespan, as well as your ?healthspan? ? the time you have that is disease-free. Without a placebo, it is difficult to prove that the intervention caused the anti-ageing effect. However, the team say that despite the small number of participants, the results would not be expected by chance, and it is unlikely that lifestyle changes would have contributed significantly to the outcome. They acknowledge that a placebo effect could have influenced the results, which they will study in a future trial involving 100 participants. Spontaneous ageing reversal is intrinsically unlikely, says lead author Greg Fahy, at 21st Century Medicine in Fontana, California. ?If placebo by itself caused such a strong effect, it would be expected that many prior interventions would have reported similar effects.? Fahy points out that his collaborator Steve Hovarth, professor of human genetics & biostatistics at the University of California in Los Angeles, has done many studies of diet and exercise in which epigenetic age has been measured at the beginning and end, and has never observed a 1.5 year decrease a year later by chance. ?Both [diet and exercise] have a benefit,? says Hovarth, ?but the effect is very small. You need thousands of people to detect it.? Immune boostThe drug used in the trial aimed at repairing the thymus, a small organ that plays a key role in the immune system, and which shrinks with age. Shrinking is associated with poor immune function, and is linked to an increase occurrence of cancer, infectious disease and auto-immune conditions. It also leads to an early death. Fahy and his colleagues gave participants rhGH because studies suggest it can regenerate the thymus. Extra rhGH can trigger diabetes, however, so they added a supplement called dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and a drug called metformin, which can prevent this from occurring. MRI scans taken at the beginning and end of the trial revealed thymus regeneration, accompanied by improvements in the immune system, in seven of the participants. ?Perhaps just undergoing this trial somehow changed the behaviour of these men towards a more healthy lifestyle,? says Jo?o Pedro de Magalh?es, a microbiologist, involved in ageing studies at the University of Liverpool. ?Having said that, this study certainly opens exciting avenues for future work and doing a larger trial with proper controls is now warranted.? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 07:06:37 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 08:06:37 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Artificial intelligence is changing every aspect of war Message-ID: A new type of arms race could be on the cards Sep 7th 2019 Quotes: (Long article) The latest deep-learning systems can be the most enigmatic of all. In March 2016, AlphaGo, a deep-learning algorithm built by DeepMind, beat one of the world?s best players in Go, an ancient Chinese strategy game. In the process it played several highly creative moves that confounded experts. The very next month, China?s Academy of Military Science held a workshop on the implications of the match. ?For Chinese military strategists, among the lessons learned from AlphaGo?s victories was the fact that an AI could create tactics and stratagems superior to those of a human player in a game that can be compared to a war-game,? wrote Elsa Kania, an expert on Chinese military innovation. ----- ?What do we do when AI is applied to military strategy and has calculated the probabilistic inferences of multiple interactions many moves beyond that which we can consider,? asks wing-commander Keith Dear, an RAF intelligence officer, ?and recommends a course of action that we don?t understand?? ----- Western governments insist that humans will be ?on the loop?, supervising things. But even many of their own officers are not convinced. ?It seems likely humans will be increasingly both out of the loop and off the team in decision-making from tactical to strategic,? says Commander Dear. The expectation that combat will speed up ?beyond the capabilities of human cognition? recurs in Chinese writing, too, says Ms Kania. --------------------- That's the critical point! Not only that AI strategy might be too complex for humans to understand - it will all happen too fast for humans to process. An AI enabled war might be over before humans realise that it has even started. Though that points out the need for AI enabled defence systems as well. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 13:11:55 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 09:11:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] An AI can now pass a 12th-Grade Science Test Message-ID: Just 4 years ago 700 AI programs competed against each other and tried to pass a 8th-Grade multiple choice Science Test and win a $80,000 prize, but they all flunked, the best one only got 59.3% of the questions correct. But last Wednesday the Allen Institute unveiled a AI called "Aristo" that got 90.7% correct and then answered 83% of the 12th grade science test questions correctly. It seems to me that for a long time AI improvement was just creeping along but in the last few years things started to pick up speed. AI goes from F to A on the N.Y. Regents Science Exam John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 13:37:26 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 06:37:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? Message-ID: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614154/the-anti-aging-drug-thats-just-around-the-corner/ At least there?ll be some ?interim results? in by next year. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 13:51:14 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 09:51:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. I am taking a leap at this point ahead of clinical trials though. Interesting article, so I just thought I'd share my related personal experiment for those interested... On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 9:39 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.technologyreview.com/s/614154/the-anti-aging-drug-thats-just-around-the-corner/ > > At least there?ll be some ?interim results? in by next year. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 14:08:30 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 07:08:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> On Sep 8, 2019, at 6:51 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. > > I am taking a leap at this point ahead of clinical trials though. > > Interesting article, so I just thought I'd share my related personal experiment for those interested... Thanks for sharing that. Are there any related metrics you do that would give you a clue here that it?s doing something? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst From interzone at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 14:54:59 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:54:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, that cuts to the heart of the challenge. I haven't really found any easily available way to monitor efficacy. I do have baseline basic blood work including fasting insulin levels, and after running it again approximately 6 months out, my fasting insulin is way better (caveat that I also started out heavy, and have been losing weight so there may be confounding variables). One side effect I would mention that I do believe is coming from the rapamycin is that my overall white blood cell count did drop significantly compared to baseline after 6 months out. It is still within the normal reference range so I am not concerned (or surprised), but it's hard to tell if there are other offsetting positive effects on subtypes of immune related cells with the blunt testing tools I have available. Further complicating testing beyond standard panels is that I have to pay for all of it myself since none of this is covered by insurance. I do wish I had run some kind of baseline methylation (Horvath) testing when I started. I am still planning on getting this done at some point but haven't yet. If I figure out any way to monitor results more meaningfully, I'll definitely share here if anyone is interested. At the end of the day, building a potential longevity/healthspan stack involves a leap of faith to some extent unfortunately. I have reviewed a great deal of the literature on mTOR, metformin, and rapamycin, and personally see enough evidence of a potential life extension mechanism to extrapolate and take the plunge. YMMV of course. On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:10 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sep 8, 2019, at 6:51 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side > effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and > minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects > are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. > > > > I am taking a leap at this point ahead of clinical trials though. > > > > Interesting article, so I just thought I'd share my related personal > experiment for those interested... > > Thanks for sharing that. Are there any related metrics you do that would > give you a clue here that it?s doing something? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:00:44 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:00:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. dylan I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of course in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto 'hitting'. Second, where did you get your supplement? I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. Please tell me all you can. Thanks! bill w On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 9:11 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sep 8, 2019, at 6:51 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side > effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and > minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects > are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. > > > > I am taking a leap at this point ahead of clinical trials though. > > > > Interesting article, so I just thought I'd share my related personal > experiment for those interested... > > Thanks for sharing that. Are there any related metrics you do that would > give you a clue here that it?s doing something? > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:15:02 2019 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 11:15:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is long but has lots of details missing from the popular press coverage. I'm just including the intro because the article has graphics and links and because of copyright law. https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2019/09/07/1st-age-reversal-results-is-it-hgh-or-something-else/ *Yesterday, the TRIIM study was described in science news headlines around the world, though, through a glitch, the original research paper is not yet on the Aging Cell web site. (You saw it first here.) I refer you to the writeup in Nature?s News section for a full summary of the paper, and in this column I will add my personal framing, and what I know about the study from private connection to its authors and one of the subjects. The big news is setback of the epigenetic clock, by several methylation measures. Instead of getting a year older during the trial, nine subjects got a year younger, on average, based on the version of the Horvath methylation clock that best predicts lifespan. The study had been originally designed to regrow the thymus. (Loss of thymus function has been linked to the collapse of the immune system that occurs typically before age 70.) Imaging showed that the functional part of the thymus expanded over the course of the trial, and blood tests confirmed improved immune function. The treatment included human growth hormone (HGH)MetforminVitamin DZincDHEAIt is my belief that the age of our bodies is controlled by several biological clocks. (Greg Fahy, who conceived and conducted the TRIIM study, shares this perspective.) Candidates for clocks include Thymic involutionMethylation profileTimekeeper in the hypothalamusTelomere lengthPerhaps some changing homeostatic state of signal molecules and transcription factors circulating in the bloodThis story is about #1 and #2. To be explicit, I?m saying that the body doesn?t wear out with age, but rather aging is a continuation of the timed growth and development program into a phase of late-life self-destruction. Just as growth and development are under epigenetic control. * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:21:58 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 08:21:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: ?Pulsing? usually means taking an escalating dose than dropping down to no dose and repeating. It can also mean just having long dose free periods, which seems what Dylan means here: he?s taking a weekly dose (as opposed to a daily one; I?m presuming it clears the body in far less than a week). ?Hitting? here means that the drug is simply having an impact. It reacts with both protein complexes and one is thought to be beneficial, the other harmful. Hence, he?s pulsing to get some beneficial effect whilst minimizing the harmful effect. (I don't think he used ?hitting? here in any medical or technical sense. He was just being metaphorical.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Sep 8, 2019, at 8:00 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. dylan > > I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of course in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto 'hitting'. Second, where did you get your supplement? > > I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. Please tell me all you can. > > Thanks! bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:34:34 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:34:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well,thanks. Now - where is the stuff? bill w On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:30 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ?Pulsing? usually means taking an escalating dose than dropping down to > no dose and repeating. It can also mean just having long dose free periods, > which seems what Dylan means here: he?s taking a weekly dose (as opposed to > a daily one; I?m presuming it clears the body in far less than a week). > > ?Hitting? here means that the drug is simply having an impact. It reacts > with both protein complexes and one is thought to be beneficial, the other > harmful. Hence, he?s pulsing to get some beneficial effect whilst > minimizing the harmful effect. (I don't think he used ?hitting? here in any > medical or technical sense. He was just being metaphorical.) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Sep 8, 2019, at 8:00 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side > effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and > minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects > are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. dylan > > I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of course > in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto 'hitting'. > Second, where did you get your supplement? > > I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side > effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. > Please tell me all you can. > > Thanks! bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:37:05 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:37:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a long article on rapamycin by an M.D. https://rapamycintherapy.com/ On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:22 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is long but has lots of details missing from the popular press > coverage. I'm just including the intro because the article has graphics and > links and because of copyright law. > > > https://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2019/09/07/1st-age-reversal-results-is-it-hgh-or-something-else/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Yesterday, the TRIIM study was described in science news headlines around > the world, though, through a glitch, the original research paper is not yet > on the Aging Cell web site. (You saw it first here.) I refer you to the > writeup in Nature?s News section for a full summary of the paper, and in > this column I will add my personal framing, and what I know about the study > from private connection to its authors and one of the subjects. The big > news is setback of the epigenetic clock, by several methylation measures. > Instead of getting a year older during the trial, nine subjects got a year > younger, on average, based on the version of the Horvath methylation clock > that best predicts lifespan. The study had been originally designed to > regrow the thymus. (Loss of thymus function has been linked to the collapse > of the immune system that occurs typically before age 70.) Imaging showed > that the functional part of the thymus expanded over the course of the > trial, and blood tests confirmed improved immune function. The treatment > included human growth hormone (HGH)MetforminVitamin DZincDHEAIt is my > belief that the age of our bodies is controlled by several biological > clocks. (Greg Fahy, who conceived and conducted the TRIIM study, shares > this perspective.) Candidates for clocks include Thymic > involutionMethylation profileTimekeeper in the hypothalamusTelomere > lengthPerhaps some changing homeostatic state of signal molecules and > transcription factors circulating in the bloodThis story is about #1 and > #2. To be explicit, I?m saying that the body doesn?t wear out with age, > but rather aging is a continuation of the timed growth and development > program into a phase of late-life self-destruction. Just as growth and > development are under epigenetic control. * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 15:50:24 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 11:50:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill- I probably should have been more clear with my terminology as I was speaking casually with my terms :-). I'll respond to your questions and provide some additional background. Rapamycin is a drug, not a supplement which is its own can of worms unfortunately. It has an extremely interesting history IMO, as the basis of it comes from a microorganism discovered in the soil of Easter Island. It's one of these serendipitous scientific discoveries. It eventually went on to be commercialized and used as part of an immune suppressing cocktail in organ transplant patients. It may seem paradoxical to be talking about using an immune suppressor to fight aging and improve the immune response, but like many drugs, it's all about dosing. At high daily levels of intake, rapamycin will suppress the immune system. At lower, less frequent doses, it does not have the same effects. As a result, people experimenting with it for life extension/healthspan purposes generally take a dose once a week that a patient taking it for immunosuppression would be taking daily. Rapamycin has a half live of around 72 hours so even taking it once a week will result in multi day benefits in theory. That's what I meant by pulsing. I only take it once a week. If you're interested in exploring the biochemistry angle, reading up on mTOR is the best starting point. mTOR stands for mammalian (or mechanistic) Target of Rapamycin. It's the complex that rapamycin (and metformin through a different spot in the pathway) interact with. mTOR is heavily involved in nutrient sensing and figuring out if you are well fed or starving. At the risk of oversimplification, rapamycin/metformin potentially trick your body into activating a lot of beneficial pathways that are activated when the body senses we are not getting enough calories. It's the same idea behind calorie restriction advocates who IMO lead a difficult lifestyle that I'm not interested in. I won't got further into mTORC1 versus mTORC2 other than to say again that the idea behind taking a single dose weekly is to get the good effects from mTOR inhibitors like rapamycin while minimizing the bad ones. So back to the drug angle...While it is possible to get rapamycin in bulk from Chinese manufacturers, I would NOT recommend this. Beyond having to go through the hassle of getting a third party to provide purity analysis (which I consider mandatory), the dosing is in low milligrams which makes it more difficult to measure. Anyways, you may also find some sellers online that will do it without a prescription but I don't recommend that route either. If you are interested in trying it, I would recommend checking out the website of Dr. Alan Green at https://rapamycintherapy.com/. He was a retired physician who is around your age (slightly older now I believe) who was experiencing a lot of negative aging effects including what he diagnosed as an enlarged heart. He was getting winded walking the dog up a neighborhood hill and decided to research aging remedies in the literature. He came across rapamycin (and metformin) as potential therapies, and to cut to the chase, spent a year+ self experimenting with rapamycin. Anecdotally, he had great improvements in his cardiac profile (rapamycin is known to improve the effects he was experiencing in dogs), and felt better overall. He then decided to reopen a practice for rapamycin (and potentially metformin) therapy so people could actually get an off label prescription for rapamycin. In theory, you could get your own physician to write you a prescription for rapamycin but I think you will find they don't know anything about the drug, and if they quickly look it up, they will think you are crazy in asking for an immunosuppressor which is the on label use. If they are open to learning and not gunshy, you might be able to convince them to give it to you off label. In my case, I went to see Dr. Green because I am in his geographic area. He charges a very reasonable fee, will respond to follow up questions, and was a really nice guy in person. I spent most of an afternoon chatting with him during our consult. He is old school and will not attempt to put stuff through insurance (which would likely deny it anyways, but you could try on your own). If you do decide you want to experiment with it, and find a prescription, I would recommend you also download the GoodRx app or something similar. It's great for any meds not covered by insurance FYI and I strongly suggest checking it out. It will give you substantial discounts on most meds including rapamycin and make the cost a lot more manageable. You are probably looking at around $1200 for a year's supply of rapamycin with the discount. An alternative to rapamycin that would be easier to procure, is very cheap, and generally very well tolerated would be metformin. It is in the same ballpark in terms of suppressing mTOR but without getting into the details may not be as effective while still providing many benefits. Metformin would probably cost you a few dollars for a 90 day supply as it is generic and cheap. If you do go with metformin, please supplement B12 as it can affect your ability to absorb it in the gut long term. I also want to say that it should go without saying, I'm not a doc or giving medical advice, and while I believe both of these drugs are safe when used properly, I am shooting in the dark here along with everyone else self experimenting and there are risks, and you should do a lot of your own due diligence before making a decision. I'm happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability if you decide to go down the rabbit hole though. On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side > effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and > minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects > are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. dylan > > I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of course > in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto 'hitting'. > Second, where did you get your supplement? > > I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side > effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. > Please tell me all you can. > > Thanks! bill w > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicoalcala at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 16:43:31 2019 From: nicoalcala at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?Tmljb2zDoXMgQWxjYWzDoQ==?=) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 09:43:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Artificial intelligence is changing every aspect of war In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ----- > ?What do we do when AI is applied to military strategy and has > calculated the probabilistic inferences of multiple interactions many > moves beyond that which we can consider,? asks wing-commander Keith > Dear, an RAF intelligence officer, ?and recommends a course of action > that we don?t understand?? > ----- > Western governments insist that humans will be ?on the loop?, > supervising things. But even many of their own officers are not > convinced. ?It seems likely humans will be increasingly both out of > the loop and off the team in decision-making from tactical to > strategic,? says Commander Dear. The expectation that combat will > speed up ?beyond the capabilities of human cognition? recurs in > Chinese writing, too, says Ms Kania. > --------------------- > > That's the critical point! Not only that AI strategy might be too > complex for humans to understand - it will all happen too fast for > humans to process. An AI enabled war might be over before humans > realise that it has even started. > Though that points out the need for AI enabled defence systems as well. > > BillK https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNZnfKYnU It still feels true > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- *Nicol?s Alcal? - *Time traveler. Psychonaut. Food artist. >> Cocina Sagrada << >> Nicolas Alcal? << -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 16:51:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 11:51:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Many thanks. I assume you got my email, sent to the group, which included the web site of your doctor. So I read it all. I am already on metformin for very borderline diabetes II. I emailed your doctor and we'll see what he says. I found Rapamune on Wikipedia and it seems to be the one we are talking about - about $150 a month with discount. will also ask my pharmacist. The prescription is for 30 pills, but you say take it once a week, eh? So it really isn't $150 a month unless you are taking 30 pills once a week!! bill w On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:54 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hi Bill- > > I probably should have been more clear with my terminology as I was > speaking casually with my terms :-). I'll respond to your questions and > provide some additional background. > > Rapamycin is a drug, not a supplement which is its own can of worms > unfortunately. It has an extremely interesting history IMO, as the basis > of it comes from a microorganism discovered in the soil of Easter Island. > It's one of these serendipitous scientific discoveries. It eventually > went on to be commercialized and used as part of an immune suppressing > cocktail in organ transplant patients. It may seem paradoxical to be > talking about using an immune suppressor to fight aging and improve the > immune response, but like many drugs, it's all about dosing. > > At high daily levels of intake, rapamycin will suppress the immune > system. At lower, less frequent doses, it does not have the same > effects. As a result, people experimenting with it for life > extension/healthspan purposes generally take a dose once a week that a > patient taking it for immunosuppression would be taking daily. Rapamycin > has a half live of around 72 hours so even taking it once a week will > result in multi day benefits in theory. That's what I meant by pulsing. > I only take it once a week. > > If you're interested in exploring the biochemistry angle, reading up on > mTOR is the best starting point. mTOR stands for mammalian (or > mechanistic) Target of Rapamycin. It's the complex that rapamycin (and > metformin through a different spot in the pathway) interact with. mTOR is > heavily involved in nutrient sensing and figuring out if you are well fed > or starving. At the risk of oversimplification, rapamycin/metformin > potentially trick your body into activating a lot of beneficial pathways > that are activated when the body senses we are not getting enough > calories. It's the same idea behind calorie restriction advocates who IMO > lead a difficult lifestyle that I'm not interested in. I won't got > further into mTORC1 versus mTORC2 other than to say again that the idea > behind taking a single dose weekly is to get the good effects from mTOR > inhibitors like rapamycin while minimizing the bad ones. > > So back to the drug angle...While it is possible to get rapamycin in bulk > from Chinese manufacturers, I would NOT recommend this. Beyond having to > go through the hassle of getting a third party to provide purity analysis > (which I consider mandatory), the dosing is in low milligrams which makes > it more difficult to measure. Anyways, you may also find some sellers > online that will do it without a prescription but I don't recommend that > route either. > > If you are interested in trying it, I would recommend checking out the > website of Dr. Alan Green at https://rapamycintherapy.com/. He was a > retired physician who is around your age (slightly older now I believe) who > was experiencing a lot of negative aging effects including what he > diagnosed as an enlarged heart. He was getting winded walking the dog up a > neighborhood hill and decided to research aging remedies in the > literature. He came across rapamycin (and metformin) as potential > therapies, and to cut to the chase, spent a year+ self experimenting with > rapamycin. Anecdotally, he had great improvements in his cardiac profile > (rapamycin is known to improve the effects he was experiencing in dogs), > and felt better overall. He then decided to reopen a practice for > rapamycin (and potentially metformin) therapy so people could actually get > an off label prescription for rapamycin. > > In theory, you could get your own physician to write you a prescription > for rapamycin but I think you will find they don't know anything about the > drug, and if they quickly look it up, they will think you are crazy in > asking for an immunosuppressor which is the on label use. If they are > open to learning and not gunshy, you might be able to convince them to give > it to you off label. > > In my case, I went to see Dr. Green because I am in his geographic area. > He charges a very reasonable fee, will respond to follow up questions, and > was a really nice guy in person. I spent most of an afternoon chatting > with him during our consult. He is old school and will not attempt to put > stuff through insurance (which would likely deny it anyways, but you could > try on your own). > > If you do decide you want to experiment with it, and find a prescription, > I would recommend you also download the GoodRx app or something similar. > It's great for any meds not covered by insurance FYI and I strongly suggest > checking it out. It will give you substantial discounts on most meds > including rapamycin and make the cost a lot more manageable. You are > probably looking at around $1200 for a year's supply of rapamycin with the > discount. > > An alternative to rapamycin that would be easier to procure, is very > cheap, and generally very well tolerated would be metformin. It is in the > same ballpark in terms of suppressing mTOR but without getting into the > details may not be as effective while still providing many benefits. > Metformin would probably cost you a few dollars for a 90 day supply as it > is generic and cheap. If you do go with metformin, please supplement B12 > as it can affect your ability to absorb it in the gut long term. > > I also want to say that it should go without saying, I'm not a doc or > giving medical advice, and while I believe both of these drugs are safe > when used properly, I am shooting in the dark here along with everyone else > self experimenting and there are risks, and you should do a lot of your own > due diligence before making a decision. > > I'm happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability if > you decide to go down the rabbit hole though. > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable side >> effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 and >> minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging effects >> are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. dylan >> >> I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of course >> in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto 'hitting'. >> Second, where did you get your supplement? >> >> I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side >> effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. >> Please tell me all you can. >> >> Thanks! bill w >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 17:10:56 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 13:10:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Quite welcome. I did see your reference after I responded. I take 6mg rapamycin once a week FYI. On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Many thanks. I assume you got my email, sent to the group, which included > the web site of your doctor. So I read it all. I am already on metformin > for very borderline diabetes II. > > I emailed your doctor and we'll see what he says. I found Rapamune on > Wikipedia and it seems to be the one we are talking about - about $150 a > month with discount. will also ask my pharmacist. The prescription is for > 30 pills, but you say take it once a week, eh? So it really isn't $150 a > month unless you are taking 30 pills once a week!! > > bill w > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:54 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hi Bill- >> >> I probably should have been more clear with my terminology as I was >> speaking casually with my terms :-). I'll respond to your questions and >> provide some additional background. >> >> Rapamycin is a drug, not a supplement which is its own can of worms >> unfortunately. It has an extremely interesting history IMO, as the basis >> of it comes from a microorganism discovered in the soil of Easter Island. >> It's one of these serendipitous scientific discoveries. It eventually >> went on to be commercialized and used as part of an immune suppressing >> cocktail in organ transplant patients. It may seem paradoxical to be >> talking about using an immune suppressor to fight aging and improve the >> immune response, but like many drugs, it's all about dosing. >> >> At high daily levels of intake, rapamycin will suppress the immune >> system. At lower, less frequent doses, it does not have the same >> effects. As a result, people experimenting with it for life >> extension/healthspan purposes generally take a dose once a week that a >> patient taking it for immunosuppression would be taking daily. Rapamycin >> has a half live of around 72 hours so even taking it once a week will >> result in multi day benefits in theory. That's what I meant by pulsing. >> I only take it once a week. >> >> If you're interested in exploring the biochemistry angle, reading up on >> mTOR is the best starting point. mTOR stands for mammalian (or >> mechanistic) Target of Rapamycin. It's the complex that rapamycin (and >> metformin through a different spot in the pathway) interact with. mTOR is >> heavily involved in nutrient sensing and figuring out if you are well fed >> or starving. At the risk of oversimplification, rapamycin/metformin >> potentially trick your body into activating a lot of beneficial pathways >> that are activated when the body senses we are not getting enough >> calories. It's the same idea behind calorie restriction advocates who IMO >> lead a difficult lifestyle that I'm not interested in. I won't got >> further into mTORC1 versus mTORC2 other than to say again that the idea >> behind taking a single dose weekly is to get the good effects from mTOR >> inhibitors like rapamycin while minimizing the bad ones. >> >> So back to the drug angle...While it is possible to get rapamycin in bulk >> from Chinese manufacturers, I would NOT recommend this. Beyond having to >> go through the hassle of getting a third party to provide purity analysis >> (which I consider mandatory), the dosing is in low milligrams which makes >> it more difficult to measure. Anyways, you may also find some sellers >> online that will do it without a prescription but I don't recommend that >> route either. >> >> If you are interested in trying it, I would recommend checking out the >> website of Dr. Alan Green at https://rapamycintherapy.com/. He was a >> retired physician who is around your age (slightly older now I believe) who >> was experiencing a lot of negative aging effects including what he >> diagnosed as an enlarged heart. He was getting winded walking the dog up a >> neighborhood hill and decided to research aging remedies in the >> literature. He came across rapamycin (and metformin) as potential >> therapies, and to cut to the chase, spent a year+ self experimenting with >> rapamycin. Anecdotally, he had great improvements in his cardiac profile >> (rapamycin is known to improve the effects he was experiencing in dogs), >> and felt better overall. He then decided to reopen a practice for >> rapamycin (and potentially metformin) therapy so people could actually get >> an off label prescription for rapamycin. >> >> In theory, you could get your own physician to write you a prescription >> for rapamycin but I think you will find they don't know anything about the >> drug, and if they quickly look it up, they will think you are crazy in >> asking for an immunosuppressor which is the on label use. If they are >> open to learning and not gunshy, you might be able to convince them to give >> it to you off label. >> >> In my case, I went to see Dr. Green because I am in his geographic area. >> He charges a very reasonable fee, will respond to follow up questions, and >> was a really nice guy in person. I spent most of an afternoon chatting >> with him during our consult. He is old school and will not attempt to put >> stuff through insurance (which would likely deny it anyways, but you could >> try on your own). >> >> If you do decide you want to experiment with it, and find a prescription, >> I would recommend you also download the GoodRx app or something similar. >> It's great for any meds not covered by insurance FYI and I strongly suggest >> checking it out. It will give you substantial discounts on most meds >> including rapamycin and make the cost a lot more manageable. You are >> probably looking at around $1200 for a year's supply of rapamycin with the >> discount. >> >> An alternative to rapamycin that would be easier to procure, is very >> cheap, and generally very well tolerated would be metformin. It is in the >> same ballpark in terms of suppressing mTOR but without getting into the >> details may not be as effective while still providing many benefits. >> Metformin would probably cost you a few dollars for a 90 day supply as it >> is generic and cheap. If you do go with metformin, please supplement B12 >> as it can affect your ability to absorb it in the gut long term. >> >> I also want to say that it should go without saying, I'm not a doc or >> giving medical advice, and while I believe both of these drugs are safe >> when used properly, I am shooting in the dark here along with everyone else >> self experimenting and there are risks, and you should do a lot of your own >> due diligence before making a decision. >> >> I'm happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability if >> you decide to go down the rabbit hole though. >> >> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable >>> side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 >>> and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging >>> effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. >>> dylan >>> >>> I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of >>> course in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto >>> 'hitting'. Second, where did you get your supplement? >>> >>> I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side >>> effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. >>> Please tell me all you can. >>> >>> Thanks! bill w >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 17:32:03 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:32:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: I see DHEA on the list of anti-aging supplements. What do you think of it? If there is any evidence that it increases testosterone then I can't take it. It would kick my prostate cancer into overdrive. I probably would be dead by now if I had a normal testosterone level - it's way below the bottom normal level (and yet I still have a sex life - go figure). I see on the Good Rx web site that 30 rapamune tablets, 1 mg. with discount runs about $151.00 So if you take 6 one day a week, then you get 5 weeks out of one script- right? I would urge you to post any anti-aging info you come across, or just email me with it. I take many supplements (incl. b12 at 15000 units a day - seems you can't OD on that one). I am going to be like Woody Allen - I am going to cheat Death by not dying! Cheers! bill w On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 12:14 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quite welcome. I did see your reference after I responded. I take 6mg > rapamycin once a week FYI. > > On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Many thanks. I assume you got my email, sent to the group, which >> included the web site of your doctor. So I read it all. I am already on >> metformin for very borderline diabetes II. >> >> I emailed your doctor and we'll see what he says. I found Rapamune on >> Wikipedia and it seems to be the one we are talking about - about $150 a >> month with discount. will also ask my pharmacist. The prescription is for >> 30 pills, but you say take it once a week, eh? So it really isn't $150 a >> month unless you are taking 30 pills once a week!! >> >> bill w >> >> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 10:54 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Bill- >>> >>> I probably should have been more clear with my terminology as I was >>> speaking casually with my terms :-). I'll respond to your questions and >>> provide some additional background. >>> >>> Rapamycin is a drug, not a supplement which is its own can of worms >>> unfortunately. It has an extremely interesting history IMO, as the basis >>> of it comes from a microorganism discovered in the soil of Easter Island. >>> It's one of these serendipitous scientific discoveries. It eventually >>> went on to be commercialized and used as part of an immune suppressing >>> cocktail in organ transplant patients. It may seem paradoxical to be >>> talking about using an immune suppressor to fight aging and improve the >>> immune response, but like many drugs, it's all about dosing. >>> >>> At high daily levels of intake, rapamycin will suppress the immune >>> system. At lower, less frequent doses, it does not have the same >>> effects. As a result, people experimenting with it for life >>> extension/healthspan purposes generally take a dose once a week that a >>> patient taking it for immunosuppression would be taking daily. Rapamycin >>> has a half live of around 72 hours so even taking it once a week will >>> result in multi day benefits in theory. That's what I meant by pulsing. >>> I only take it once a week. >>> >>> If you're interested in exploring the biochemistry angle, reading up on >>> mTOR is the best starting point. mTOR stands for mammalian (or >>> mechanistic) Target of Rapamycin. It's the complex that rapamycin (and >>> metformin through a different spot in the pathway) interact with. mTOR is >>> heavily involved in nutrient sensing and figuring out if you are well fed >>> or starving. At the risk of oversimplification, rapamycin/metformin >>> potentially trick your body into activating a lot of beneficial pathways >>> that are activated when the body senses we are not getting enough >>> calories. It's the same idea behind calorie restriction advocates who IMO >>> lead a difficult lifestyle that I'm not interested in. I won't got >>> further into mTORC1 versus mTORC2 other than to say again that the idea >>> behind taking a single dose weekly is to get the good effects from mTOR >>> inhibitors like rapamycin while minimizing the bad ones. >>> >>> So back to the drug angle...While it is possible to get rapamycin in >>> bulk from Chinese manufacturers, I would NOT recommend this. Beyond having >>> to go through the hassle of getting a third party to provide purity >>> analysis (which I consider mandatory), the dosing is in low milligrams >>> which makes it more difficult to measure. Anyways, you may also find some >>> sellers online that will do it without a prescription but I don't recommend >>> that route either. >>> >>> If you are interested in trying it, I would recommend checking out the >>> website of Dr. Alan Green at https://rapamycintherapy.com/. He was a >>> retired physician who is around your age (slightly older now I believe) who >>> was experiencing a lot of negative aging effects including what he >>> diagnosed as an enlarged heart. He was getting winded walking the dog up a >>> neighborhood hill and decided to research aging remedies in the >>> literature. He came across rapamycin (and metformin) as potential >>> therapies, and to cut to the chase, spent a year+ self experimenting with >>> rapamycin. Anecdotally, he had great improvements in his cardiac profile >>> (rapamycin is known to improve the effects he was experiencing in dogs), >>> and felt better overall. He then decided to reopen a practice for >>> rapamycin (and potentially metformin) therapy so people could actually get >>> an off label prescription for rapamycin. >>> >>> In theory, you could get your own physician to write you a prescription >>> for rapamycin but I think you will find they don't know anything about the >>> drug, and if they quickly look it up, they will think you are crazy in >>> asking for an immunosuppressor which is the on label use. If they are >>> open to learning and not gunshy, you might be able to convince them to give >>> it to you off label. >>> >>> In my case, I went to see Dr. Green because I am in his geographic >>> area. He charges a very reasonable fee, will respond to follow up >>> questions, and was a really nice guy in person. I spent most of an >>> afternoon chatting with him during our consult. He is old school and will >>> not attempt to put stuff through insurance (which would likely deny it >>> anyways, but you could try on your own). >>> >>> If you do decide you want to experiment with it, and find a >>> prescription, I would recommend you also download the GoodRx app or >>> something similar. It's great for any meds not covered by insurance FYI >>> and I strongly suggest checking it out. It will give you substantial >>> discounts on most meds including rapamycin and make the cost a lot more >>> manageable. You are probably looking at around $1200 for a year's supply >>> of rapamycin with the discount. >>> >>> An alternative to rapamycin that would be easier to procure, is very >>> cheap, and generally very well tolerated would be metformin. It is in the >>> same ballpark in terms of suppressing mTOR but without getting into the >>> details may not be as effective while still providing many benefits. >>> Metformin would probably cost you a few dollars for a 90 day supply as it >>> is generic and cheap. If you do go with metformin, please supplement B12 >>> as it can affect your ability to absorb it in the gut long term. >>> >>> I also want to say that it should go without saying, I'm not a doc or >>> giving medical advice, and while I believe both of these drugs are safe >>> when used properly, I am shooting in the dark here along with everyone else >>> self experimenting and there are risks, and you should do a lot of your own >>> due diligence before making a decision. >>> >>> I'm happy to answer any additional questions to the best of my ability >>> if you decide to go down the rabbit hole though. >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:08 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> > I've been pulsing rapamycin for close to a year with no noticeable >>>> side effects. Taken once weekly, the idea is it maximizes hitting mTORC1 >>>> and minimizes hitting mTORC2. The literature indicates the anti aging >>>> effects are from the former and the negative side effects from the latter. >>>> dylan >>>> >>>> I Googled all these terms and determined that I needed a couple of >>>> course in biochemistry. first, what does 'pulsing' mean? Ditto >>>> 'hitting'. Second, where did you get your supplement? >>>> >>>> I am 77, in pretty good health, and practically never have any side >>>> effects of anything, so maybe I am a good candidate for this rapamycin. >>>> Please tell me all you can. >>>> >>>> Thanks! bill w >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 17:34:49 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:34:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Ancient worm fossil rolls back origins of animal life Message-ID: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02556-x Too bad no dna from that time is available... Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Sep 8 20:05:04 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 16:05:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Rapamycin-like drug for anti-aging? In-Reply-To: References: <456B0812-FB80-432C-BC9B-E730F82BA853@gmail.com> Message-ID: Based on what you posted, DHEA should be a nonstarter for someone with prostate cancer. While some question its effectiveness, it may impact sex hormones including T. I would stay far away. I'm considering experimenting with adding it to my daily stack though based on my own situation. On Sun, Sep 8, 2019, 1:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I see DHEA on the list of anti-aging supplements. What do you think of > it? If there is any evidence that it increases testosterone then I can't > take it. It would kick my prostate cancer into overdrive. I probably > would be dead by now if I had a normal testosterone level - it's way below > the bottom normal level (and yet I still have a sex life - go figure). > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Sep 9 00:35:39 2019 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 17:35:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should be able to get the paper here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97CJJ5YOfctalRfZExnd2lHUmRyYUNWMFZYMUgzSXJKVzg4/view --Max (Subject #1) On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:07 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The study was conducted by cryobiologist Dr. Gregory Fahy and involved > Human Growth Hormone and two common diabetes drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone > (DHEA) and metformin. The results are interesting because it didn't just > slow down the biological clock it reversed it, but it may not be rock solid > because the clinical study was small ( just 9 white men between 51 and 65) > and it did not contain a control. The discovery was an accident, the drug > trial was set up to see if growth hormone could be safely used to restore > the thymus gland and anti-diabetic drugs were only included because > growth hormone can cause diabetes. After the trial was over they found that > in 7 of the 9 men the thymus was restored, and then as an afterthought > Fahy checked on their epigenetic clock and got a surprise. > > It seems to me the next step should be to try this drug cocktail in mice > and see if they live longer. > > Drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body?s ?epigenetic clock > > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Max More, PhD Strategic Philosopher Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 9 20:58:38 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:58:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <024e01d56751$5aec86c0$10c59440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > wrote: >> What should be done to preserve the technological power of the West, against a resurgent and tyrannical China? > Remove the Republican party from office. Their policies encourage America's economic decline. >?Truer words were never spoken! And the best way to remove the Republican party from office is NOT to vote for some idiotic third party candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning even one electoral vote. John K Clark ?Unless you live in a free state, which is most of them. In that case, voting third party makes perfect sense: it causes the mainstream parties to take interest. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 21:39:58 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:39:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: <024e01d56751$5aec86c0$10c59440$@rainier66.com> References: <024e01d56751$5aec86c0$10c59440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The mainstream parties will take interest when the 3 party candidates get far more votes than they do now - I agree with John bill w On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:02 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific > research, than the United States! > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:39 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *>> **What should be done to preserve the technological power of the > West, against a resurgent and tyrannical China? * > > > Remove the Republican party from office. Their policies encourage > America's economic decline. > > > > >?Truer words were never spoken! And the best way to remove the > Republican party from office is NOT to vote for some idiotic third party > candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning even one > electoral vote. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > ?Unless you live in a free state, which is most of them. In that case, > voting third party makes perfect sense: it causes the mainstream parties to > take interest. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 21:57:42 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:57:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: <024e01d56751$5aec86c0$10c59440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For voters, I believe the issue would be whether you live in a district where the two major parties are close/competitive. For instance, in Washington state, especially King County, they?re not. It?s not likely to swing Republican in the coming election, so if even if you don?t want the GOP to get the vote here, you don?t really have to worry about voting third party. (Of course, if third parties started to seriously chip away at the Democratic Party lock, then you might have a case.) In fact, a third party vote might be a way to register your displeasure at the major party ? even if you prefer one major party over the other.) And not voting also makes them (would be vote getters) take interest too. (One might say people who could?ve voted in the last presidential election had a huge impact: Clinton, despite getting a majority of the voters also seems to have kept many people away from the election ? people who in 02008 voted for Obama. Of course, not all of them because many Obama voters voted for Trump, though I?d have to look up the exact numbers here.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Sep 9, 2019, at 2:39 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The mainstream parties will take interest when the 3 party candidates get far more votes than they do now - I agree with John bill w > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 22:59:32 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 18:59:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:58 PM wrote: > >>the best way to remove the Republican party from office is NOT to vote > for some idiotic third party candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance > in hell of winning even one electoral vote. > > > > > *?Unless you live in a free state,* > And how do you know if you're living in a "free state" or not? By reading the polls. I remind you that in 2016 on the day before election day and for months before that every poll predicted Hillary Clinton would win, they only differed on how large her victory would be. I don't think it's wise to bet the future of the country on polls. > > *voting third party makes perfect sense:* > Millions of people thought that in 2016 and see where it's got us. Just a few minutes ago the New York Times broke the story that Trump's Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross called the head of NOAA and threatened to fire the scientists at the Birmingham Alabama weather bureau for contradicting the president just 20 minutes afer Trump said a category 5 hurricane would hit Alabama (he later claimed the probability was 95%), the meteorologists made it clear that as of Sunday morning there was in fact virtually no chance of it doing so. Ross demanded that NOAA issue a public rebuke to those scientists or heads would roll. And so in another example of Trump's war on science NOAA was forced to issue the following unsigned cringeworthy and obviously false statement: *?The Birmingham National Weather Service?s Sunday morning tweet spoke in absolute terms that were inconsistent with probabilities from the best forecast products available at the time,?* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 9 23:24:54 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:24:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00cb01d56765$c9678460$5c368d20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 4:00 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:58 PM > wrote: >>the best way to remove the Republican party from office is NOT to vote for some idiotic third party candidate who doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning even one electoral vote. > ?Unless you live in a free state, And how do you know if you're living in a "free state" or not? By reading the polls. Not the polls, but rather the betting. The polls were a mess last time. The closest pollster was Rasmussen, but that isn?t a poll, for it combines polling with the probability that a poll respondent will vote. Most states we know for sure are free. Texas, California and New York are three of the freest of states. If the election is even close in any of those three states (where one?s vote would matter) then the general election is such a landslide that one?s vote wouldn?t matter. Those three we can clearly see are free as a bird. If ones vote matters there, it doesn?t matter. Plenty of states are that way, but those three account for nearly a quarter of the voters in the US. Some of the smaller states are free, but they don?t really matter anyway: Utah, Idaho, New Hampshire, Vermont, those kinds of places, far from the interface they are. California is a great free state. We already know who is going to get all those EC votes (rather we know who isn?t (but we don?t yet know who will (Biden? Warren? Gabbard? Bernie? Clinton? Who do you think?)) There are enough voters in California the libertarians could make a really strong showing and have their numbers span the spread at the national level this next time around. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 23:35:28 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 19:35:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:20 PM wrote: *> there are enough voters in California the libertarians could make a > really strong showing* I'm a libertarian (small l) but after the Libertarian Party's disgraceful performance in 2016 and the 4 years of anti-libertarian policies that resulted it boggles my mind that anyone would even consider making the same mistake again in 2020. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Sep 9 23:48:20 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:48:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] China will soon spend more money on scientific research, than the United States! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <342C78C9-DDF7-4E69-9A18-CE2D3869953F@gmail.com> On Sep 9, 2019, at 4:35 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 7:20 PM wrote: >> >> > there are enough voters in California the libertarians could make a really strong showing > > I'm a libertarian (small l) but after the Libertarian Party's disgraceful performance in 2016 and the 4 years of anti-libertarian policies that resulted it boggles my mind that anyone would even consider making the same mistake again in 2020. I?m not a LP supporter, but had you not voted for the LP in 2016 (presuming you did; for you?), would that have changed anything? I mean aside from feeling smug about it, what else would?ve changed California?s 55 electoral votes went to Clinton and she won those by a large margin, so your vote wouldn?t have been decisive. Heck, even if you persuaded Spike and every other Extropian in California through your scolding, it probably would?ve had no impact on which way those electoral votes went and I bet even political analysts would hardly notice the shift in votes due to your efforts. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 01:52:03 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 21:52:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <007601d5581f$6b113d20$4133b760$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:42 AM BillK wrote: > > Weaker members of society are to be looked after, not trampled on as > surplus to requirements. ### If they were weaker, they would have lost. As it is, they committed sacrilege. They stopped the construction of one of our most holy temples, the telescope. They are the barbaric enemies of our faith. They should be cast down. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 02:00:34 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:00:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 24, 2019 at 4:50 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Unfortunately whereas native Hawaiians comprise a minority, > astronomers comprise an even smaller minority. In a democracy, that > means they get screwed. I too want the 30-meter telescope to be built. > I just think this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. Surely a sky-god > and a telescope can coexist in some win-win fashion on that > mountain-top. > > ### Lots of Hawaiians are virulently racist against Haole. Peace won't happen until one side wins completely. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 02:03:15 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:03:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 11:09 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Anger helps the cortisol flow, which energizes muscles etc. for fight >> or flight- >> > > Exactly, so the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune > to reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't > you think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? > With such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've > made my choice. > ### I tend to think about them as driven by racism rather than ignorance but yes, I share your anger. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 02:39:29 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:39:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests In-Reply-To: <007601d55ffa$62605200$2720f600$@rainier66.com> References: <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com> <010001d55f8a$5d304df0$1790e9d0$@rainier66.com> <007601d55ffa$62605200$2720f600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I struggle to understand how anyone can possibly be in a grumpy mood when > we are alive and well to witness a black hole devour a neutron star. To be > alive and be aware, to be here, now, to be the among the first privileged > humans in all the generations to see that, a gravitational lensed signal no > less, oh life is goooood, life is good. > ### We humans evolved to be ultra-sensitive to threats coming from opposing coalitions, even relatively remote or symbolic threats. We treat such threats differently from purely physical threats, like hurricanes or big cats. Minor threats coming from a sentient and strategically thinking opponent are often a way of probing for weakness, and if left unchallenged often escalate until the gentle genes that fail to trigger strong responses are eliminated from the gene pool. Which is why we normal people get seemingly disproportionately angry sometimes. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 10 03:10:38 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 20:10:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests In-Reply-To: References: <226ED6BD-679E-4CD8-B99C-4D8CAA5EA81E@gmail.com> <010001d55f8a$5d304df0$1790e9d0$@rainier66.com> <007601d55ffa$62605200$2720f600$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001901d56785$52628fc0$f727af40$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] How Corporate Media distorts Hawaiian Protests On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 8:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?I struggle to understand how anyone can possibly be in a grumpy mood when we are alive and well to witness a black hole devour a neutron star. To be alive and be aware, to be here, now, to be the among the first privileged humans in all the generations to see that, a gravitational lensed signal no less, oh life is goooood, life is good. >?### We humans evolved to be ultra-sensitive to threats coming from opposing coalitions, even relatively remote or symbolic threats. We treat such threats differently from purely physical threats, like hurricanes or big cats?Which is why we normal people get seemingly disproportionately angry sometimes. Rafal We might all move on if we really knew how little difference it makes what person is in this office or that office. At this point we are on a track, not just the USA, but especially the USA: we cannot balance our federal budget. There is no balanced budget in the foreseeable. Eventually the government defaults. We don?t know when, but we know it will happen. It doesn?t matter much who is driving. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 07:38:32 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 00:38:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Study challenges idea that autism is caused by an overly masculine brain Message-ID: <62D488E1-36A8-497F-BD78-EC1F8289985E@gmail.com> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/09/study-challenges-idea-autism-caused-overly-masculine-brain TL;DR: previous studies seemed biased due to small sample size and led to results that weren?t replicated. New larger study found no effect, thus seriously challenging the accepted hypothesis. Again, seems another example of how sloppy the science often is here. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 08:03:44 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 04:03:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2FE07D28-5D12-4153-A292-1F1CB3CE3AE2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 10:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to > reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you > think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With > such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my > choice. > > > ### I tend to think about them as driven by racism rather than > ignorance but yes, I share your anger. > What really infuriates me is that because of the native Hawaiians racism and or ignorance I am more ignorant about the nature of the universe than I would otherwise be. without their barbaric behavior the magnificent Thirty Meter Telescope would be finished and be producing new scientific knowledge right now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 08:05:55 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 04:05:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 10:12 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> the next time a mob of ignorant lawless thugs who are immune to > reasoned argument try to put a lid on new scientific discoveries don't you > think it would be wiser to fight them rather than run away and hide? With > such an opponent there can only be 2 responses, fear or anger. I've made my > choice. > > > ### I tend to think about them as driven by racism rather than > ignorance but yes, I share your anger. > What really infuriates me is that because of the native Hawaiians racism and or ignorance I am more ignorant about the nature of the universe than I would otherwise be. without their barbaric behavior the magnificent Thirty Meter Telescope would be finished and be producing new scientific knowledge right now. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 09:50:42 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 05:50:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Epstein Message-ID: I found a lot of articles online about Jeffrey Epstein being a transhumanist. I wonder if he ever posted here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Sep 10 12:48:21 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 05:48:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Epstein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d567d6$07869360$1693ba20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Epstein >?I found a lot of articles online about Jeffrey Epstein being a transhumanist. I wonder if he ever posted here. I don?t recall he ever did, but I only go back to 1994. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 19:51:42 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:51:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Goddamn this is the most virulently autistic conversation I have read in a long time. Couple that with old people who think they've earned the privilege to be really, really annoying, and don't understand why their repeated annoyingness could possibly be met with resistance. Clue: the content of what you are saying does not matter. Your tone is unproductive and foolish. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. This is vinegar though, it's fucking bile lol. Older adults especially have no reason you can't hold a conversation for a few minutes without degenerating into complaining and asinine name calling. You are the SAME as Trump. Fueled by spergy resentment and entitlement, only able to hear your own voice. Maybe have a brief stay at charm school. Picking fights for no reason but I assume some kind of inner insecurity that craves validation. To a point where even those who agree with you are attacked for seemingly no reason except that their opinions aren't 100% carbon copies of yours. This is not really discourse. It is Trumpian obstinacy at it's finest -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 19:52:52 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:52:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. This is vinegar though, > it's fucking bile lol. > isn't* vinegar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Sep 10 20:37:12 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:37:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > ### Lots of Hawaiians are virulently racist against Haole. Peace > won't happen until one side wins completely. Since everybody seems to have an opinion on the matter, allow me to offer you data instead: https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of race, is from people under 50 years of age. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Sep 10 22:10:58 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:10:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Is this just another sad example of the gov violating a treaty with indians? Does anyone know bill w On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 5:07 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > ### Lots of Hawaiians are virulently racist against Haole. Peace > > won't happen until one side wins completely. > > Since everybody seems to have an opinion on the matter, allow me to > offer you data instead: > > > https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ > > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of > race, is from people under 50 years of age. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 00:38:27 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:38:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:07 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > ### Lots of Hawaiians are virulently racist against Haole. Peace > > won't happen until one side wins completely. > > Since everybody seems to have an opinion on the matter, allow me to > offer you data instead: > > > https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ > > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of > race, is from people under 50 years of age. > > ### Well, yes, exactly what I wrote - lots of Hawaiians are racist and use the telescope issue as an excuse to stick it to Haole. 48% qualifies as "lots", doesn't it? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Sep 11 03:30:33 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:30:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ > > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48%? > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of? > race, is from people under 50 years of age. > > ### Well, yes, exactly what I wrote - lots of Hawaiians are racist > and use the telescope issue as an excuse to stick it to Haole. 48% > qualifies as "lots", doesn't it? I am sure there are plenty of racists of all stripes but the data does not bear out "sticking it to the haole" as the primary motivation for opposing the telescope. For one thing, your hypothesis does not account for the 34% of "haolis" i.e. caucasians who oppose the telescope. Also, what do astronomers and an internationally-available telescope have to do with race, caucasian or otherwise? The Japanese and Chinese registered voters are overwhelmingly in support of the telescope. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 18:25:47 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:25:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] puzzle Message-ID: How many bacteria (pick your favorite) does it take before they are visible? No fair using magnifying glass. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 18:43:58 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:43:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 19:30, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > How many bacteria (pick your favorite) does it take before they are visible? No fair using magnifying glass. > > bill w > One. It is the largest bacterium ever discovered. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Sep 11 19:07:28 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:07:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] puzzle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK - Bill K wins. Now for second prize (first prize is a week in exotic Biloxi MS - second prize is two weeks in Biloxi): Pick a typical bacterium from our guts and do the math. bill w On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 1:47 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 at 19:30, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > How many bacteria (pick your favorite) does it take before they are > visible? No fair using magnifying glass. > > > > bill w > > > > One. > > It is the largest bacterium ever discovered. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Sep 12 02:21:20 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:21:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] puzzle In-Reply-To: <1558142155.4054812.1568253934819@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1558142155.4054812.1568253934819@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190911192120.Horde.MrVRR-2-P-6Mwn8DfJCLPr0@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > OK - Bill K wins.? Now for second prize (first prize is a week in > exotic Biloxi MS - second prize is two weeks in Biloxi): > Pick a typical bacterium from our guts and do the math.? ?bill w The human eye can barely see something that is about .1 milimeter or 100 microns in scale. E. coli is a rod-shaped bacterium about 2 microns long and 1 micron across. Assuming that they are in a relatively tight packed colony depending on lighting, contrast, and excellent eyesight and other factors I would say a minimum of about 5,000 - 10,000 bacterial cells. Much more typically however, the average colony on an agarose plate after 12 hours of growth, about a milimeter across, has about 10 million cells. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Thu Sep 12 02:34:27 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:34:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Video of black hole eating Message-ID: <20190911193427.Horde.z9OEcFcuup2DKlVwSy6lIJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Astronomers at my old alma mater have turned 13,000 infrared observations over a period of 24 years into 30 second video of Sagitarius A*, the super-massive black hole at the center of our galaxy, feeding on gas causing it to glow brightly and then fade. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/black-hole-getting-hungrier?fbclid=IwAR375UA_C7Fi7Q2C7c1u6Pm8IPX_0yzp-rtnH4wCFyyqaVPQyMW7_PzCMuA https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/ab38c3 Stuart LaForge From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 16:52:44 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 00:52:44 +0800 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? Message-ID: What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? This is mine... And in no particular order... 1. The Expanse 2. Star Trek: Discovery 3. Doctor Who 4. The Boys 5. American Gods 6. Nightflyers 7. Stranger Things 8. Black Mirror 9. Doom Patrol 10. Archer 11. Umbrella Academy 12. Legion 13. The Good Place 14. Philip K. Dick's Electric Dreams 15. Love, Death and Robots 16. Humans 17. The Flash 18. The Magicians 19. Westworld 20. Maniac 21. Jessica Jones 22. Luke Cage 23. The Punisher 24. The Orville 25. The Crossing Oh, and also, Altered Carbon, which I did not personally enjoy. And keep in mind, this list could have easily been twice as long! Lol Science fiction/fantasy television has of course shaped my conscious and unconscious views about the possibilities of the future, and the nature of transhumanism. I remember running home, right after school, with my bestfriend alongside me, so that we would not miss the beginning of Star Trek: TOS! Lol We live in a golden age of television production, both for the quantity and quality of what is now coming out. And the number of new sf/fantasy series about to be launched, is almost mind boggling! But I will admit that with the success of the Lord of the Rings films and Game of Thrones, epic fantasy is the big new focus/risk for major television studios, rather than perhaps science fiction... https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/tv-fantasy-series-that-could-be-the-next-game-of-thrones/ And so many series, already out... https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/new-tv-shows-2018/55637/new-us-tv-shows-2018-sci-fi-fantasy-comic-book I look forward to seeing what list members have to say... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 17:42:11 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:42:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't want to throw water on your fire but would like to contribute to a newby's return:(is that oxymoronic?) I don't watch TV except for sports - tennis and golf. The last thing I enjoyed on TV was Northern Exposure. At the risk of being a heretic, I thought Star Trek was just a bit made for the average TV viewer and did not watch it much. I prefer books. Now if you want to get a list started of favorite books, preferably leaving out the masters of old which we all know and love, and put together a list of favorites that are relatively new, then I'm in. bill w On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy > television? This is mine... > > And in no particular order... > > 1. The Expanse > 2. Star Trek: Discovery > 3. Doctor Who > 4. The Boys > 5. American Gods > 6. Nightflyers > 7. Stranger Things > 8. Black Mirror > 9. Doom Patrol > 10. Archer > 11. Umbrella Academy > 12. Legion > 13. The Good Place > 14. Philip K. Dick's Electric Dreams > 15. Love, Death and Robots > 16. Humans > 17. The Flash > 18. The Magicians > 19. Westworld > 20. Maniac > 21. Jessica Jones > 22. Luke Cage > 23. The Punisher > 24. The Orville > 25. The Crossing > > Oh, and also, Altered Carbon, which I did not personally enjoy. > > And keep in mind, this list could have easily been twice as long! Lol > > Science fiction/fantasy television has of course shaped my conscious and > unconscious views about the possibilities of the future, and the nature of > transhumanism. I remember running home, right after school, with my > bestfriend alongside me, so that we would not miss the beginning of Star > Trek: TOS! Lol > > We live in a golden age of television production, both for the quantity > and quality of what is now coming out. And the number of new sf/fantasy > series about to be launched, is almost mind boggling! But I will admit > that with the success of the Lord of the Rings films and Game of Thrones, > epic fantasy is the big new focus/risk for major television studios, rather > than perhaps science fiction... > > > https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/tv-fantasy-series-that-could-be-the-next-game-of-thrones/ > > And so many series, already out... > > > https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/new-tv-shows-2018/55637/new-us-tv-shows-2018-sci-fi-fantasy-comic-book > > I look forward to seeing what list members have to say... > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 19:38:19 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:38:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think HBO's Westworld is really excellent. AMC's Preacher is the most blasphemous thing on TV and that's always fun to see. But the Cartoon Network's Rick and Morty have the best science fiction show on TV right now, in fact it's the best show on TV period. Rick is an atheistic amoral alcoholic foul mouthed scientific genius and Morty his naive (at least in season 1) grandson. One episode had themes similar to the movie "Inception" but went much deeper, did a better job, and only needed 25 minutes to do so. Another episode had one of my favorite lines of the series that is, in the context of the story, equal parts funny sad horrifying and true, Morty tells his sister: "Every Morning, I Eat Breakfast 20 Yards Away from My Own Rotting Corpse!" Season 4 will start in November, I hope it's as good as the previous 3. Here's a review from the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/arts/television/rick-and-morty.html John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 19:42:43 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:42:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:47 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don't watch TV except for sports - tennis and golf. > I never understood the endless fascination some people have for watching multimillionaires exercise. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 20:44:38 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:44:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For golf, it's like having a beautiful wall of green fields and mountains and lakes to look at when I look up from my book. I would not call golf exercise. Tennis I watch because I was somewhat good at the game and love to see those shapely girls running around in their little outfits. Sort of like G rated porn. bill w On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 2:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:47 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I don't watch TV except for sports - tennis and golf. >> > > I never understood the endless fascination some people have for watching > multimillionaires exercise. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 21:13:52 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:13:52 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Nick Bostrom on the Joe Rogan Show Message-ID: Nick Bostrom, a prominent transhumanist academic, and a former regular poster around here, is interviewed by Joe Rogan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPCsSUMZ6bM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1QbuM4-Ke8BJqmR2-p43SR6q-SWX_k3uV6mxFMaQZmRwkLM0-l-Bj0Fwk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 21:20:14 2019 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:20:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nick Bostrom on the Joe Rogan Show In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for posting this! I'm actually a big fan of Rogan's podcast and love that he ends up with someone like Nick on there. I'll have to give the whole thing a listen. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Nick Bostrom, a prominent transhumanist academic, and a former regular > poster around here, is interviewed by Joe Rogan. > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPCsSUMZ6bM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR1QbuM4-Ke8BJqmR2-p43SR6q-SWX_k3uV6mxFMaQZmRwkLM0-l-Bj0Fwk > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 21:31:03 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:31:03 +0800 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not listing Rick and Morty was a big oversight on my part. I have seen every episode, and can't wait to see more. I actually almost listed Adventure Time, because it makes me think of some future virtual world. I love reading, and wish I had more time to read. I find it frustrating how so many great looking books come out every month/year, and I get further and further behind. This is one of my actual main reasons for wanting an indefinite lifespan. And as for my top 25 television list, I have only seen a few episodes of each series, except for a few of them, but that was enough to recognize quality. As for sports, I only watch the superbowl, the Olympics, and on occasion, mixed martial arts competitions. "Tennis I watch because I was somewhat good at the game and love to see those shapely girls running around in their little outfits." I like watching female Olympic swimmers for their combination of smooth muscle tone and power. I find it refreshing as compared to female bodybuilders. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 4:48 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > For golf, it's like having a beautiful wall of green fields and mountains > and lakes to look at when I look up from my book. I would not call golf > exercise. > Tennis I watch because I was somewhat good at the game and love to see > those shapely girls running around in their little outfits. Sort of like G > rated porn. > bill w > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 2:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 1:47 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > I don't watch TV except for sports - tennis and golf. >>> >> >> I never understood the endless fascination some people have for watching >> multimillionaires exercise. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 21:40:27 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:40:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 4:48 PM William Flynn Wallace < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I would not call golf exercise.* I've heard it called "a nice walk ruined". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 22:51:30 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:51:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes - Mark Twain. I loved it before my back make me quit. I even went out with friends and just watched and joked etc. bill w On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 4:45 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 4:48 PM William Flynn Wallace < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I would not call golf exercise.* > > > I've heard it called "a nice walk ruined". > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 23:00:19 2019 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:00:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why no anime? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 12 23:55:41 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 00:55:41 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 23:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Yes - Mark Twain. I loved it before my back make me quit. > I even went out with friends and just watched and joked etc. bill w > The quotation ?Golf is a good walk spoiled? is indeed commonly attributed to Mark Twain, but like many such sayings, he probably never said it. Quote Investigator has an article about trying to trace the origin of the quotation. Famous people are "quote magnets" because a saying sounds more impressive with a famous name attached. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 00:04:13 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:04:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What would be on your top 25 list, for the best recent sf/fantasy television? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Famous people are "quote magnets" because a saying sounds more impressive with a famous name attached. :) bill k Yeah, and the misattributions usually are between the Bible and Shakespeare. At least it wasn't Yogi. bill w On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 6:59 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 23:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Yes - Mark Twain. I loved it before my back make me quit. > > I even went out with friends and just watched and joked etc. bill w > > > > The quotation ?Golf is a good walk spoiled? is indeed commonly > attributed to Mark Twain, but like many such sayings, he probably > never said it. > Quote Investigator has an article about trying to trace the origin of > the quotation. > > Famous people are "quote magnets" because a saying sounds more > impressive with a famous name attached. :) > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 13 00:07:48 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:07:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?First_hint_that_body=E2=80=99s_=E2=80=98biologic?= =?utf-8?q?al_age=E2=80=99_can_be_reversed?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you. Now, where can I find a physician who is willing to write a prescription for off-label use? That's the crux. I have quite a few doctors and all of them are scared of lawsuits. The DEA is keeping close tabs on them. Go to Mexico? bill w On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 7:39 PM Max More via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You should be able to get the paper here: > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97CJJ5YOfctalRfZExnd2lHUmRyYUNWMFZYMUgzSXJKVzg4/view > > > --Max (Subject #1) > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:07 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The study was conducted by cryobiologist Dr. Gregory Fahy and involved >> Human Growth Hormone and two common diabetes drugs, dehydroepiandrosterone >> (DHEA) and metformin. The results are interesting because it didn't just >> slow down the biological clock it reversed it, but it may not be rock solid >> because the clinical study was small ( just 9 white men between 51 and 65) >> and it did not contain a control. The discovery was an accident, the drug >> trial was set up to see if growth hormone could be safely used to restore >> the thymus gland and anti-diabetic drugs were only included because >> growth hormone can cause diabetes. After the trial was over they found that >> in 7 of the 9 men the thymus was restored, and then as an afterthought >> Fahy checked on their epigenetic clock and got a surprise. >> >> It seems to me the next step should be to try this drug cocktail in mice >> and see if they live longer. >> >> Drugs seemed to rejuvenate the body?s ?epigenetic clock >> >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > > > -- > > Max More, PhD > Strategic Philosopher > Co-editor, *The Transhumanist Reader* > > http://www.amazon.com/Transhumanist-Reader-Contemporary-Technology-Philosophy/dp/1118334310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372225570&sr=1-1&keywords=the+transhumanist+reader > President & CEO, Alcor Life Extension Foundation > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 00:23:02 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:23:02 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Japan's New Environmental Minister Calls for Closing Down All Nuclear Reactors to Prevent Another Disaster Like Fukushima Message-ID: "After the disaster, all 54 of Japan's nuclear reactors were shut down. *Reuters* reported Wednesday that "about 40 percent of the pre-Fukushima fleet is being decommissioned" and only six reactors are currently operating. Amid drawn out legal battles over the impacts of the meltdown, campaigners have ramped up opposition to nuclear power generation in the country. However, some Japanese politicians, including the current prime minister, have argued that nuclear energy is necessary to meet national climate goals. Japan's new trade and industry minister, Isshu Sugawara, criticized Koizumi's call to shutter the country's reactors. "There are risks and fears about nuclear power," Sugawara said. "But 'zero-nukes' is, at the moment and in the future, not realistic." https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/09/12/japans-new-environmental-minister-calls-closing-down-all-nuclear-reactors-prevent?fbclid=IwAR2bcEdK_csfIxt-LwPSq7J1vgV4qaEMY7d8kDr-Ma49ix6ZkraRRHbKa2k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 00:31:59 2019 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:31:59 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Young Entrepreneurs who strike it rich, and why not you? Message-ID: I look at these very successful young people, and to be honest, feel strong envy. What are we doing wrong? At least those of us who have not started a company, which made millions, and lead to our financial independence... I suppose I lack creativity, ingenuity, focus, child-like self-confidence, bulldog tenaciousness, and perhaps, the right kind of intelligence. Oh, and connections/generous rich relatives, because that certainly does help. The video clearly shows you don't have to be an IT genius, to become rich. A simple but ingenious idea, properly marketed, will do the trick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wky9cLHTc7g&fbclid=IwAR1f25q4xNmo5bTSOqMFuh6LZv8E239JojwZ3lrdGXSHcSIe3fJYA0lvy2o What do you think? John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 14 14:58:28 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 07:58:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sat in jail Message-ID: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> There?s a big deal going on about some movie star bribing someone to rig her daughter?s SAT in order to get into Stanford. Got caught, now she gets 14 days in the slammer. I can?t find anywhere what happened to the person who received the bribe. By my way of thinking, the receiver of the bribe, perpetrator of the actual cheating committed a much bigger crime than the person who offers the bribe. I worked for a while as a test administrator. I understand that is a grave sin indeed to compromise the admissions process in any way, particularly messing with the SAT. Anyone know? Or know where to find info? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 17:12:22 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 10:12:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sat in jail In-Reply-To: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7F488F8B-7957-4D33-968A-2FFB434F16C3@gmail.com> They were charged too. A decent summary can be found in Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal I don't think there?s anything special about this particular bribery incident. I don?t think it?s any graver a ?sin? than other corruption either. Perhaps because folks rely too much on what college someone gets into and graduates from, this seems worse, but that?s a wider problem that Bryan Caplan covers in his recent book, _The Case Against Education_. By the way, Felicity Huffman got 14 days, but Tanya McDowell got 5 years ? not for bribery but for using a friend?s address to enroll her son in kindergarten. Five years! See: https://www.theroot.com/felicity-huffman-gets-2-weeks-in-jail-for-gaming-educat-1838111418 If there?s a sin here, it?s sending someone to prison for five years for faking her address. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Sep 14, 2019, at 7:58 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > There?s a big deal going on about some movie star bribing someone to rig her daughter?s SAT in order to get into Stanford. Got caught, now she gets 14 days in the slammer. > > I can?t find anywhere what happened to the person who received the bribe. By my way of thinking, the receiver of the bribe, perpetrator of the actual cheating committed a much bigger crime than the person who offers the bribe. I worked for a while as a test administrator. I understand that is a grave sin indeed to compromise the admissions process in any way, particularly messing with the SAT. > > Anyone know? Or know where to find info? > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 14 17:51:18 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 10:51:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sat in jail In-Reply-To: <7F488F8B-7957-4D33-968A-2FFB434F16C3@gmail.com> References: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> <7F488F8B-7957-4D33-968A-2FFB434F16C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003f01d56b25$03227710$09676530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] sat in jail They were charged too. A decent summary can be found in Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal I don't think there?s anything special about this particular bribery incident. I don?t think it?s any graver a ?sin? than other corruption either?Dan Dan this one really has my attention. Since I deal with the local schools as a volunteer for Science Olympiad, Codeo and American Math Competition, I am well aware of the youthful lives of the super-competitive in academic and SAT as a competition sport crowd. Recently it was revealed that there was a mysterious adversity index, which is added to one?s SAT score in some admissions processes. Since students carefully study their SAT practice tests and note their weak areas, along with estimates of the time commitment to get extra score, they wanted to know exactly what is required to score additional adversity points. Is race considered for instance? What evidence is required to establish that? Is DNA evidence alone sufficient, or must one be told by one?s family the traditional (and usually incorrect) notions on one?s ethnicity? If one is told by one?s parents of native American ancestry for instance, is that sufficient? How many adversity points is that worth? This one hits close to home on many levels. The big prize is admission to Stanford. It isn?t just because of its prestige, but also because it is a really nice campus, in a safe area, and it is close to home for a lot of people. Stanford undergrad admission is a huge prize. If students need to arrange for adversity, this is within the realm of reality. That?s way easier and safer than cheating on the SAT. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Sep 14 17:56:39 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 12:56:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] sat in jail In-Reply-To: <003f01d56b25$03227710$09676530$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> <7F488F8B-7957-4D33-968A-2FFB434F16C3@gmail.com> <003f01d56b25$03227710$09676530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Adversity points is an abomination. Now it's the administrators who are cheating, not the students. bill w On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 12:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] sat in jail > > > > They were charged too. A decent summary can be found in Wikipedia: > > > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal > > > > I don't think there?s anything special about this particular bribery > incident. I don?t think it?s any graver a ?sin? than other corruption > either?Dan > > > > > > Dan this one really has my attention. Since I deal with the local schools > as a volunteer for Science Olympiad, Codeo and American Math Competition, I > am well aware of the youthful lives of the super-competitive in academic > and SAT as a competition sport crowd. > > > > Recently it was revealed that there was a mysterious adversity index, > which is added to one?s SAT score in some admissions processes. Since > students carefully study their SAT practice tests and note their weak > areas, along with estimates of the time commitment to get extra score, they > wanted to know exactly what is required to score additional adversity > points. Is race considered for instance? What evidence is required to > establish that? Is DNA evidence alone sufficient, or must one be told by > one?s family the traditional (and usually incorrect) notions on one?s > ethnicity? If one is told by one?s parents of native American ancestry for > instance, is that sufficient? How many adversity points is that worth? > > > > This one hits close to home on many levels. The big prize is admission to > Stanford. It isn?t just because of its prestige, but also because it is a > really nice campus, in a safe area, and it is close to home for a lot of > people. Stanford undergrad admission is a huge prize. If students need to > arrange for adversity, this is within the realm of reality. That?s way > easier and safer than cheating on the SAT. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Sep 14 18:24:20 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 11:24:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sat in jail In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d56b0c$dea45970$9bed0c50$@rainier66.com> <7F488F8B-7957-4D33-968A-2FFB434F16C3@gmail.com> <003f01d56b25$03227710$09676530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006a01d56b29$a08157c0$e1840740$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] sat in jail >?Adversity points is an abomination. Now it's the administrators who are cheating, not the students. bill w Ja well sure they are. However, their product is valuable (credentials) and the ability to arbitrarily award that product is a form of power. Power corrupts. So, all I ask is we get a formula for how many adversity points are awarded for what adversity. And what evidence is required for adversity claimed. For instance, if the zip code from an impoverished area is worth sufficient points, a family could arrange to rent an apartment there for a while, gobble up adversity points, get in, go back home. That is cheaper than buying SAT points. Being told one is American Indian is free. In my son?s case, his is genetically verifiable. He?s more American Indian than a prominent senator currently running for president and who used the family folklore to leverage racial minority status. If they accept DNA evidence rather than family folklore, my son is also African American, in contradiction to the lore (they deny it, but I can prove it.) All I want is the formula. Failing that, can we bribe someone inside to leak the formula they use to promote their corruption? If bribing someone inside for the formula is a way of measuring corruption (and, well, taking advantage of it) is that corruption as well? If so, and I want no part of corruption, are there perfectly legitimate ways to rack up adversity points? Can we estimate their value? And what about those sports? How much is it worth to actually be on one of the kinda fakey sports that doesn?t gobble up much time, such as the ping pong team? Here?s where I am going with it: the SAT is disadvantageous for top students. We know more and more of the academic elites crowd right up near the top end, so there is little statistical difference between a 1550 and a 1600. There is a lot of random variation. So? it is time for the academic elites to get together and create a low-time-intensive team of some sort, the speed walking team for instance, a real team for an emergent sport. Then they could work together to somehow create a very high crime rate, in such a way that it doesn?t actually destroy any property or cause any danger. Arrange for a theft team, to each steal each other?s bicycles, file the police reports, then a week later, steal them back around, everybody gets their original bike, two theft reports for each bike, crime rate goes thru the roof, off they go, the poor dears from that crime-ridden neighborhood, to STANFORD, by evolution! BillW, we feel your pain. Feel ours, professor. spike On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 12:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] sat in jail They were charged too. A decent summary can be found in Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal I don't think there?s anything special about this particular bribery incident. I don?t think it?s any graver a ?sin? than other corruption either?Dan Dan this one really has my attention. Since I deal with the local schools as a volunteer for Science Olympiad, Codeo and American Math Competition, I am well aware of the youthful lives of the super-competitive in academic and SAT as a competition sport crowd. Recently it was revealed that there was a mysterious adversity index, which is added to one?s SAT score in some admissions processes. Since students carefully study their SAT practice tests and note their weak areas, along with estimates of the time commitment to get extra score, they wanted to know exactly what is required to score additional adversity points. Is race considered for instance? What evidence is required to establish that? Is DNA evidence alone sufficient, or must one be told by one?s family the traditional (and usually incorrect) notions on one?s ethnicity? If one is told by one?s parents of native American ancestry for instance, is that sufficient? How many adversity points is that worth? This one hits close to home on many levels. The big prize is admission to Stanford. It isn?t just because of its prestige, but also because it is a really nice campus, in a safe area, and it is close to home for a lot of people. Stanford undergrad admission is a huge prize. If students need to arrange for adversity, this is within the realm of reality. That?s way easier and safer than cheating on the SAT. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 00:44:13 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 20:44:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > > https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ > > > > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% > > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of > > race, is from people under 50 years of age. > > > > ### Well, yes, exactly what I wrote - lots of Hawaiians are racist > > and use the telescope issue as an excuse to stick it to Haole. 48% > > qualifies as "lots", doesn't it? > > I am sure there are plenty of racists of all stripes but the data does > not bear out "sticking it to the haole" as the primary motivation for > opposing the telescope. For one thing, your hypothesis does not > account for the 34% of "haolis" i.e. caucasians who oppose the > telescope. ## I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear less white by championing separatist and racist movements by non-whites. Media and many professors now insinuate it's shameful or at least suspicious to be white, and many react in this way. Also some whites hate elite white pursuits, like pure science, so there is a class dimension to some of the opposition. People are weird. I just started reading Amy Chua's "Political Tribes". Interesting so far. Mainstream Americans and people like me, who have difficulty warming up to group causes in general, tend to underestimate the power of ethnic sentiments. It looks like normal people in their natural habitat tend to naturally hate each other over trifles. Even if I don't have the capability to develop a national attachment, I realize now that ignoring such propensity is perilous, both at the individual and at the national level. If you don't pay attention in whose neighborhood you set up shop, you may get shot during the next round of riots. If a nation allows too many hostile aliens inside, it will be perverted by the hostility they bring and by the hostility they evoke in the host population. Nice neighborhoods get ruined by the wrong neighbors. ------------------- > Also, what do astronomers and an internationally-available > telescope have to do with race, caucasian or otherwise? ### Big technology, big science - these are white and Asian themes. ------------------- > The Japanese > and Chinese registered voters are overwhelmingly in support of the > telescope. ### Fits the stereotype of Asians being sciency. Let me be clear - if there is one pursuit I hold sacred, it is the pursuit of knowledge. It is noble and magnificent to build the temple of truth. Regular hatred I can take in stride but an assault on a major shrine of my faith angers me, perhaps disproportionately. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 01:00:21 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 21:00:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fall, or Dodge in Hell Message-ID: As promised, here is my take on Neal Stephenson's new book. I am disappointed. Robin Hanson reviewed it here: http://www.overcomingbias.com/2019/06/stephensons-em-fantasy.html and I agree with his assessment, so I won't repeat it but let me just add a few remarks. At its core the book explores eschatology and ontology . It builds a meta-reality with "Turtles all the way down" - a hierarchy of an unknown number of levels of mental existence, where our level is visited by emissaries of a higher plane of existence (Enoch Root, an old acquaintance from other Stephenson books) and in turn spawns another level, "the Land" of uploaded humans. Despite the trappings of gritty realism that might make you think it's "hard" science-fiction, it is in fact a fantasy. I find fantasy less compelling than science-based s-f because it tends be a mess of ad hoc happenings, eschews the limitations that a more rigorous framework would impose and thus fails to stimulate the kind of rules-based, generative thinking that I enjoy. Conversely, a good fantasy may be redeemed by precisely building a world out of a few premises and letting it evolve in a coherent fashion. This is where Fall falls into a hell of its own making. Stephenson implies that every level of existence in his meta-reality must follow its own rules on pain of becoming incoherent. The rules of Enoch Root's level are unknown. The rules of the Land however are supposed to be derived from computational limitations imposed by our own physical reality. The Land is a very large physics simulation with added fantasy flavors and it runs on quantum computers. If we were to follow that premise, we would need to build an uploaded world that agrees with what we already know about human neurology and thinking. In our world, for example, it is possible to read many aspects of a mind using even very crude EEG technology, yet somehow, the workings of this computational Land cannot be accessed except by tracking the amount of money (!) spent on a given part of the simulation, or something like that. Seriously? The administrators of the simulation find themselves physically and computationally unable read its contents? In our world, memory is a function of the physical substrate but somehow in the upload world personal memory disappears even as the brain is simulated at synapse level. This doesn't make any sense at all! This is completely incoherent and hugely disappointing, especially after reading "Snow Crash" and "Diamond Age" where the details followed from premises. Stephenson also indulged in an at-length ritual denunciation of a hated out-group, i.e. American flyover state white Christians. This thread of the story feels like a kludgy add-on to the main theme and it further subtracts from an already disappointing work. Not recommended. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 03:13:04 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 22:13:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <0E08BECB-9E1F-4936-9ADE-0A37EA51A441@gmail.com> I have a question. > I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear less white by championing separatist and racist movements by non-whites. Media and many professors now insinuate it's shameful or at least suspicious to be white, and many react in this way. Also some whites hate elite white pursuits, like pure science, so there is a class dimension to some of the opposition. People are weird. I do see people doing what you?re saying, but my question is, who is white? Am I white if I am 1/4 Peruvian (including mostly native descent, not Spaniard)? What if I have cousins with reservation cards (through blood, from our common ancestor)? What if my family is Jewish, and I mean REALLY Jewish, like a lot of my family died in the Holocaust kind of Jewish? Am I white? I ?look? white, sure, but am I actually, or am I ?passing?? Does my families deviant morality (derived from working carnivals) make me less ?culturally white?? SR Ballard > On Sep 14, 2019, at 7:44 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: >> >> > https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ >> > >> > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% >> > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of >> > race, is from people under 50 years of age. >> > >> > ### Well, yes, exactly what I wrote - lots of Hawaiians are racist >> > and use the telescope issue as an excuse to stick it to Haole. 48% >> > qualifies as "lots", doesn't it? >> >> I am sure there are plenty of racists of all stripes but the data does >> not bear out "sticking it to the haole" as the primary motivation for >> opposing the telescope. For one thing, your hypothesis does not >> account for the 34% of "haolis" i.e. caucasians who oppose the >> telescope. > > ## I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear less white by championing separatist and racist movements by non-whites. Media and many professors now insinuate it's shameful or at least suspicious to be white, and many react in this way. Also some whites hate elite white pursuits, like pure science, so there is a class dimension to some of the opposition. People are weird. > > I just started reading Amy Chua's "Political Tribes". Interesting so far. Mainstream Americans and people like me, who have difficulty warming up to group causes in general, tend to underestimate the power of ethnic sentiments. It looks like normal people in their natural habitat tend to naturally hate each other over trifles. Even if I don't have the capability to develop a national attachment, I realize now that ignoring such propensity is perilous, both at the individual and at the national level. If you don't pay attention in whose neighborhood you set up shop, you may get shot during the next round of riots. If a nation allows too many hostile aliens inside, it will be perverted by the hostility they bring and by the hostility they evoke in the host population. Nice neighborhoods get ruined by the wrong neighbors. > ------------------- >> Also, what do astronomers and an internationally-available >> telescope have to do with race, caucasian or otherwise? > > ### Big technology, big science - these are white and Asian themes. > > ------------------- >> The Japanese >> and Chinese registered voters are overwhelmingly in support of the >> telescope. > > ### Fits the stereotype of Asians being sciency. > > Let me be clear - if there is one pursuit I hold sacred, it is the pursuit of knowledge. It is noble and magnificent to build the temple of truth. Regular hatred I can take in stride but an assault on a major shrine of my faith angers me, perhaps disproportionately. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 05:02:22 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 01:02:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <0E08BECB-9E1F-4936-9ADE-0A37EA51A441@gmail.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <0E08BECB-9E1F-4936-9ADE-0A37EA51A441@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 11:13 PM SR Ballard wrote: > I have a question. > > I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear less white > by championing separatist and racist movements by non-whites. Media and > many professors now insinuate it's shameful or at least suspicious to be > white, and many react in this way. Also some whites hate elite white > pursuits, like pure science, so there is a class dimension to some of the > opposition. People are weird. > > > I do see people doing what you?re saying, but my question is, who is white? > > Am I white if I am 1/4 Peruvian (including mostly native descent, not > Spaniard)? What if I have cousins with reservation cards (through blood, > from our common ancestor)? What if my family is Jewish, and I mean REALLY > Jewish, like a lot of my family died in the Holocaust kind of Jewish? > > Am I white? > ### It all depends on who you hang out with and who wants your stuff. If you hang out with people who get called "stupid ass white" while driving through Chicago, like me, then chances are you are going to be treated as white, even if you are half black (like my ex brother-in-law). If a bunch of white people want to steal your stuff, you will be a kike, or a spic. If a bunch of non-whites want your stuff, they may call you a cracker and won't be interested in the details of your descent. While there is a genetic basis to race as a biological notion, the social constructions of race and ethnicity have a lot to do with building coalitions for and against, usually with the intent to take from whoever ends up being too weak to fight back. It's a cruel world out there, among humans. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 13:45:28 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 08:45:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: It looks like normal people in their natural habitat tend to naturally hate each other over trifles rafal Freud called it 'the narcissism of minor differences' bill w On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 7:48 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 12:53 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: >> >> > >> https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/ >> > >> > Of note, 44% of native Hawaiians support the telescope while 48% >> > oppose it. Also most of the opposition to the telescope, regardless of >> > race, is from people under 50 years of age. >> > >> > ### Well, yes, exactly what I wrote - lots of Hawaiians are racist >> > and use the telescope issue as an excuse to stick it to Haole. 48% >> > qualifies as "lots", doesn't it? >> >> I am sure there are plenty of racists of all stripes but the data does >> not bear out "sticking it to the haole" as the primary motivation for >> opposing the telescope. For one thing, your hypothesis does not >> account for the 34% of "haolis" i.e. caucasians who oppose the >> telescope. > > > ## I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear less > white by championing separatist and racist movements by non-whites. Media > and many professors now insinuate it's shameful or at least suspicious to > be white, and many react in this way. Also some whites hate elite white > pursuits, like pure science, so there is a class dimension to some of the > opposition. People are weird. > > I just started reading Amy Chua's "Political Tribes". Interesting so far. > Mainstream Americans and people like me, who have difficulty warming up to > group causes in general, tend to underestimate the power of ethnic > sentiments. It looks like normal people in their natural habitat tend to > naturally hate each other over trifles. Even if I don't have the capability > to develop a national attachment, I realize now that ignoring such > propensity is perilous, both at the individual and at the national level. > If you don't pay attention in whose neighborhood you set up shop, you may > get shot during the next round of riots. If a nation allows too many > hostile aliens inside, it will be perverted by the hostility they bring and > by the hostility they evoke in the host population. Nice neighborhoods get > ruined by the wrong neighbors. > ------------------- > >> Also, what do astronomers and an internationally-available >> telescope have to do with race, caucasian or otherwise? > > > ### Big technology, big science - these are white and Asian themes. > > ------------------- > >> The Japanese >> and Chinese registered voters are overwhelmingly in support of the >> telescope. > > > ### Fits the stereotype of Asians being sciency. > > Let me be clear - if there is one pursuit I hold sacred, it is the pursuit > of knowledge. It is noble and magnificent to build the temple of truth. > Regular hatred I can take in stride but an assault on a major shrine of my > faith angers me, perhaps disproportionately. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 15:04:20 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:04:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fall, or Dodge in Hell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the first 2/3 of the book was pretty good but then it went into Lord of the Rings mode and I'm not a big Tolkien fan. It introduced many interesting plot ideas and I kept hoping it would return to them but it never did. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 15 15:58:59 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 16:58:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 at 14:50, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Freud called it 'the narcissism of minor differences' > Jonathan Swift satirised this in Gulliver's Travels to Lilliput published in 1726. Criticising the political and religious disputes of his time. It's not just a children's storybook. :) BillK From avant at sollegro.com Wed Sep 18 15:06:12 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:06:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > I am sure there are plenty of racists of all stripes but the data does? > not bear out "sticking it to the haole" as the primary motivation for? > opposing the telescope. For one thing, your hypothesis does not? > account for the 34% of "haoles" i.e. caucasians who oppose the? > telescope. > > ## I think whites are trying to get brown points, that is appear > less white by championing separatist and racist movements by > non-whites. Media and many professors now insinuate it's shameful or > at least suspicious to be white, and many react in this way. Also > some whites hate elite white pursuits, like pure science, so there > is a class dimension to some of the opposition. People are weird. Pure science is not the "elite white pursuit" you seem to think it is. Knowledge is information; it has no color. Science and math are syncretic methodologies that have incorporated discoveries by many different races over the course of human history. For example, chemistry evolved from ancient Egyptian alchemy, and Mayan astronomers were easily the equal of any in Europe up until the fall of their civilization. That science is an "elite white pursuit" is a feeble lie concocted by the social justice crowd to divorce themselves from intellectualism and excuse their willful ignorance. > I just started reading Amy Chua's "Political Tribes". Interesting so > far. Mainstream Americans and people like me, who have difficulty > warming up to group causes in general, tend to underestimate the > power of ethnic sentiments. It looks like normal people in their > natural habitat tend to naturally hate each other over trifles. I would love to tell you you were being cynical there, but I can't. It is so ingrained into us that even in the absence of obvious differences like race or culture, artificial distinctions will be introduced in order to facilitate hatred. Like the Crips and the Bloods in the U.S. or Chelsea and Arsenal in the U.K. We just like to divide up into teams, arbitrary if need be, and make war with one another. If this never-ending all-against-all battle-for-everything is our common genetic destiny, then the least we can do is recognize that we are all in this savage and beautiful game together and exercise good sportsmanship by acknowledging that the losers contribute as much to the game as the winners. And there is hope for us, for compared to meerkats or chimpanzees, we are EXTREMELY tolerant of one another as a species. I think that is due to civilization, cultural evolution, and at least since the pill and legalized abortion, sexual selection by women for more domesticated men. > Even if I don't have the capability to develop a national > attachment, I realize now that ignoring such propensity is perilous, > both at the individual and at the national level. If you don't pay > attention in whose neighborhood you set up shop, you may get shot > during the next round of riots. Absolute individualism is something of a libertarian fantasy is it not? In modern society, we cannot help but be dependent on factory farms and numerous other examples of division of labor and mutual interdependence. Unless you live a primitive Walden Pond-type lifestyle, you are pretty much dependent on others for some aspect of your modern life. Even the Amish have socialist barn-raisings. And stateless societies like Somalia are far from the paradise anarchists imagine they would be. There is an evolutionary advantage to socialism, which is why there are multi-cellular organisms and social animals in the first place. Wolves hunt in packs for a reason. > If a nation allows too many hostile aliens inside, it > will be perverted by the hostility they bring and by the hostility > they evoke in the host population. Nice neighborhoods get ruined by > the wrong neighbors.?------------------- Well I am sure the native Hawaiians and other Native American tribes would certainly agree with you. It is a good thing that they can't deport us. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Sep 19 01:53:37 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:53:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 11:26 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > That science is an "elite white pursuit" is a feeble lie concocted by > the social justice crowd to divorce themselves from intellectualism > and excuse their willful ignorance. > ### I am here with you! But when I wrote that pure science is an elite pursuit I meant it in a different way than an SJW would. For SJWs "elite" and "white" are terms of opprobrium. For me "elite" is usually and in many ways good, insofar as elites of one or another sort are superior to non-elites. An elite pursuit is something that the best people do, like "elite athletics". And of course, since I am not an SJW, "white" for me is neither bad nor good, it is just a fact. Science *should* be a common concern, it should not be seen as the domain of indifferent eggheads and inscrutable hierarchies but unfortunately many enemies of science, like the SJWs you mentioned, see the rigor of science as an obstacle in their bid for power. In that respect, the Hawaiian rioters are identical to SJWs - the telescope is a casualty in a war they started. ---------------------------- > > If this never-ending all-against-all battle-for-everything is our > common genetic destiny, then the least we can do is recognize that we > are all in this savage and beautiful game together and exercise good > sportsmanship by acknowledging that the losers contribute as much to > the game as the winners. > ### It takes two sides to have a game. If the umpire says they lost but they still go up a mountain and harass the winners, they are no sportsmen, and they should not be treated as such. What we see there is not a game, it's a dirty fight. -------------- > Absolute individualism is something of a libertarian fantasy is it > not? > ### Did I write something implying I advocate "absolute individualism"? --------------- > > Nice neighborhoods get ruined by > > the wrong neighbors. ------------------- > > Well I am sure the native Hawaiians and other Native American tribes > would certainly agree with you. It is a good thing that they can't > deport us. ### Deportation was not a Native American or Hawaiian custom. They preferred mass slaughter of vanquished enemies. Their "neighborhood" didn't become nice until the last couple of hundred years. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Sep 19 03:30:29 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:30:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > ?Science *should* be a common concern, it should not be seen as the > domain of indifferent eggheads and inscrutable hierarchies but > unfortunately many enemies of science, like the SJWs you mentioned, > see the rigor of science as an obstacle in their bid for power. In > that respect, the Hawaiian rioters are identical to SJWs - the > telescope is a casualty in a war they started. > ---------------------------- The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second best locale. > ### It takes two sides to have a game. If the umpire says they lost > but they still go up a mountain and harass the winners, they are no > sportsmen, and they should not be treated as such. What we see there > is not a game, it's a dirty fight.??-------------- Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law is on their side: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act > ### Did I write something implying I advocate "absolute > individualism"??--------------- No, I just wanted to remind you that in addition to laws that are more or less enforceable, a multicultural empire is held together by common interests on the part of all the constituent cultures, outweighing their irreconcilable differences. Laws and common interest are the glue holding our civilization together. We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of the situation for the time being. But by being patient astronomers might turn a loss into a mere delay. There is a mere 4% differential between the native Hawaiians who support the telescope versus those that don't. Sooner or later the older Kapuna will die off and the younger natives will realize that a sky god can have no finer temple than a telescope that can see to the edge of creation. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 01:28:02 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 21:28:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. > If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second > best locale. > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. OK. ----------------- > > > ### It takes two sides to have a game. If the umpire says they lost > > but they still go up a mountain and harass the winners, they are no > > sportsmen, and they should not be treated as such. What we see there > > is not a game, it's a dirty fight. -------------- > > Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law > is on their side: > ### Really? OK. ---------------------- > > We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own > laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of > the situation for the time being. > ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? OK. So let me ask you just one political question: On whose side are you? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 01:39:12 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 20:39:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: The homosexuals forever bent the term 'gay'. Too bad - I miss it. Their right. But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. We are two, three, or more standard deviations from the mean on the IQ scale and probably others, and if we don't qualify as elite, no one does (OK disregard the hype there). No one in history was ever more wrong than John Locke. Big advantages involve genetics and I hope that soon everyone will accept that. Do you think that most billionaires, self-made, are just like the rest of us? They earned it, most of them. With elite skills. Get over it, some of you (no, not you, the other world outside). bill w On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:31 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. >> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second >> best locale. >> > > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. > > OK. > ----------------- > >> >> > ### It takes two sides to have a game. If the umpire says they lost >> > but they still go up a mountain and harass the winners, they are no >> > sportsmen, and they should not be treated as such. What we see there >> > is not a game, it's a dirty fight. -------------- >> >> Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law >> is on their side: >> > > ### Really? > > OK. > > ---------------------- > >> >> We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own >> laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of >> the situation for the time being. >> > > ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? > > OK. > > So let me ask you just one political question: > > On whose side are you? > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Sep 20 04:25:54 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 21:25:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. >> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second >> best locale. >> > > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. What? No. How did you get that from what I wrote above? The astronomers are getting screwed, Rafal. All I am saying that the astronomers should not give up. How is that blaming the astronomers? >> Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law >> is on their side: > ### Really? Yes. I posted a link to the wikipedia article about the federal law in question earlier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act And here is a link to the actual law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1996 Relevant quote: "On and after August 11, 1978, it shall be the policy of the United States to protect and preserve for American Indians their inherent right of freedom to believe, express, and exercise the traditional religions of the American Indian, Eskimo, Aleut, and Native Hawaiians, including but not limited to access to sites, use and possession of sacred objects, and the freedom to worship through ceremonials and traditional rites." The Hawaiians claim that Mauna Kea is a religious site for them. Is it really a religious site for them? Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't matter because we are talking about religion. Religion is not based on fact it is based on belief. And if the law does not require Christians to PROVE that Jesus was the son of God, then the government cannot require Hawaiians to prove that Muana Kea is sacred to them. Therefore, so long as the Hawaiians BELIEVE it is a sacred site to them, then the First Amendment and the American Indian Religious Freedom Act (which explicitly includes the native Hawaiians) clearly guarantees them access to the site. I am not a lawyer or a judge, but the language that the law is written in is not all that obscure for legalese. If you interpret the law that I quoted differently than I do, please explain. >> We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own >> laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of >> the situation for the time being. > ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? So far the protests have been tense and volatile but there hasn't been any violence yet, as far as I know, from either side. If the alternative to reconciliation is violent conflict, then yes I prefer reconciliation by all means. Not because I am a pacifist necessarily, but because the USA is in precarious situation right now. I have never seen such toxic partisanship in domestic politics like I have in the last few years drawn along socioeconomic and racial lines. The hostility is palpable and it feels like a powder keg ready to go off. Sending in the military to forcibly quell the Hawaiian protests could be the spark that sets off civil war in the U.S. And that would be devastating to our civilization. If you think that these protests hinder astronomy then imagine what kind of set back to all of science an all out civil war would be. > So let me ask you just one political question: > > On whose side are you? I am annoyed by the protestors, and I wish they would just go home and let the TMT be built. In fact, I agree with John Clark that they probably didn't really decide the mountain was sacred until they found out it was valuable to the Haoles. But there is no way to prove what somebody does or does not believe when it comes to religion. So ultimately, I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and holding the republic together. Therefore I prefer to find a solution to the standoff that doesn't involve shooting American citizens (which the Hawaiians are) even if it involves delay or compromise. After all to quote Benjamin Franklin, "There never was a good war or a bad peace." Stuart LaForge From rahmans at me.com Fri Sep 20 09:38:33 2019 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:38:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Fall, or Dodge in Hell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F3AC5B2-37B7-4F1C-AF17-8815E5C43EB7@me.com> The whole ?digital genesis? where Dodge was in some sort of formless void until he started defining the creation which would eventually become a shared reality was a nice nod to various creation myths. But, it sort of ruined some enjoyment for me. The villain of the book, while morally reprehensible, at least tried to carry out some sort of sys admin functions even though he didn?t even have root! (Maybe that is the definition of a villain for a sys admin?) The elements of the book which took place outside the shared digital reality were quite well done. Especially the extrapolations of current trends, for example; various religious extremists clinging to ever more absurd dogmas, atavistic libertarians forming ever shrinking and devolving little tribes, social media and human knowledge being so manipulated that there is no clear common view of reality. Apart from that, the title of the book is wonderful; "Fall, or Dodge in Hell?. It evokes, obviously, the ancient Summerian myths where people ate the forbidden fruit of the cassia tree to try to gain immortality, and again obviously, Sartre?s ?No Exit? in which he concludes that ?hell is other people?, which then obviously implies, by its complete absence of reference, Satre?s ?Being and Nothingness? in which we encounter the idea ?mit sein?, or ?being with? which is the only escape from the ever decreasing trust circles of extremist religion/libertarianism. Socialism for the win, yay! When I started reading I seriously wondered who/how many/how is the author referencing people on this list. Does anyone here know him? > On 20 Sep 2019, at 03:28, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2019 11:04:20 -0400 > From: John Clark > > To: Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Fall, or Dodge in Hell > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I thought the first 2/3 of the book was pretty good but then it went into > Lord of the Rings mode and I'm not a big Tolkien fan. It introduced many > interesting plot ideas and I kept hoping it would return to them but it > never did. > > John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 13:35:23 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 08:35:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: > But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. > > bill w > Unfortunately, it already is, and has been as long as I?ve been able to understand that type of nuance. Elite is used in mainly two contexts ?the elite? which is an extremely loaded, negative statement, or a self-aggrandizing one, and ?an elite ____?, where the blank is usually a martial reference, such as ?fighting force?, ?sniper?, ?martial artist?. Only occasionally would it refer to other things in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way. >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:31 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. >>> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second >>> best locale. >> >> ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. >> >> OK. >> ----------------- >>> >>> > ### It takes two sides to have a game. If the umpire says they lost >>> > but they still go up a mountain and harass the winners, they are no >>> > sportsmen, and they should not be treated as such. What we see there >>> > is not a game, it's a dirty fight. -------------- >>> >>> Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law >>> is on their side: >> >> ### Really? >> >> OK. >> >> ---------------------- >>> >>> We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own >>> laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of >>> the situation for the time being. >> >> ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? >> >> OK. >> >> So let me ask you just one political question: >> >> On whose side are you? >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 20 14:18:16 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:18:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown >>?But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. bill w >?Unfortunately, it already is, and has been as long as I?ve been able to understand that type of nuance. >?Elite is used in mainly two contexts ?the elite? which is an extremely loaded, negative statement, or a self-aggrandizing one, and ?an elite ____?, where the blank is usually a martial reference, such as ?fighting force?, ?sniper?, ?martial artist?. Only occasionally would it refer to other things in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way. There is an important subtlety at play: the term elite is often viewed with suspicion unless it refers to athletes. In the world of sports, the elite athletes are celebrated, paid outrageous sums of money, offered huge salaries for saying nice things about a product, etc. We love our celebrated athletes. Elite scholars? Hmmm? a bit problematic. Should not all students be elite? (ehhh no.) Is it fair that some students are better than others? (Ja.) Why should we allow academic excellence and superior achievement? (Allow?) My experience has been positive in turned academics into a sport. I am a volunteer coach for American Math Competition and Science Olympiad. We are trying to organize a Codeo team (programming competition.) For some odd reason, academic super-achievement is OK so long as it is an actual sport. Granted of course: as team sports go, the academic sports carry the lowest status and the funding for it is carried by the parents. But, it is allowed to exist, and academic elites are grudgingly recognized. I claim progress. I competed in American Math Competition when I was a senior in high school. Our newly-formed team won the county championship. We had a blast. But our school never acknowledged it, never (as far as I know) even knew that we had won that. Now, both AMC and Science Olympiad are at least recognized sports. When our team won a medal last year they mentioned our academic elites over the intercom. That?s progress. Elite academics are nowhere near being offered sponsorships. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 14:23:09 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 09:23:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: >From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just access. bill w On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:29 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. > >> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second > >> best locale. > >> > > > > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. > > > What? No. How did you get that from what I wrote above? The > astronomers are getting screwed, Rafal. All I am saying that the > astronomers should not give up. How is that blaming the astronomers? > > > >> Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law > >> is on their side: > > > ### Really? > > Yes. I posted a link to the wikipedia article about the federal law in > question earlier. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act > > And here is a link to the actual law: > > https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1996 > > Relevant quote: "On and after August 11, 1978, it shall be the policy > of the United States to protect and preserve for American Indians > their inherent right of freedom to believe, express, and exercise the > traditional religions of the American Indian, Eskimo, Aleut, and > Native Hawaiians, including but not limited to access to sites, use > and possession of sacred objects, and the freedom to worship through > ceremonials and traditional rites." > > The Hawaiians claim that Mauna Kea is a religious site for them. Is it > really a religious site for them? Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't > matter because we are talking about religion. Religion is not based on > fact it is based on belief. And if the law does not require Christians > to PROVE that Jesus was the son of God, then the government cannot > require Hawaiians to prove that Muana Kea is sacred to them. > > Therefore, so long as the Hawaiians BELIEVE it is a sacred site to > them, then the First Amendment and the American Indian Religious > Freedom Act (which explicitly includes the native Hawaiians) clearly > guarantees them access to the site. > > I am not a lawyer or a judge, but the language that the law is written > in is not all that obscure for legalese. If you interpret the law that > I quoted differently than I do, please explain. > > >> We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own > >> laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of > >> the situation for the time being. > > ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? > > So far the protests have been tense and volatile but there hasn't been > any violence yet, as far as I know, from either side. If the > alternative to reconciliation is violent conflict, then yes I prefer > reconciliation by all means. Not because I am a pacifist necessarily, > but because the USA is in precarious situation right now. I have never > seen such toxic partisanship in domestic politics like I have in the > last few years drawn along socioeconomic and racial lines. > > The hostility is palpable and it feels like a powder keg ready to go > off. Sending in the military to forcibly quell the Hawaiian protests > could be the spark that sets off civil war in the U.S. And that would > be devastating to our civilization. If you think that these protests > hinder astronomy then imagine what kind of set back to all of science > an all out civil war would be. > > > So let me ask you just one political question: > > > > On whose side are you? > > I am annoyed by the protestors, and I wish they would just go home and > let the TMT be built. In fact, I agree with John Clark that they > probably didn't really decide the mountain was sacred until they found > out it was valuable to the Haoles. But there is no way to prove what > somebody does or does not believe when it comes to religion. > > So ultimately, I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and holding > the republic together. Therefore I prefer to find a solution to the > standoff that doesn't involve shooting American citizens (which the > Hawaiians are) even if it involves delay or compromise. After all to > quote Benjamin Franklin, "There never was a good war or a bad peace." > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 14:28:57 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 09:28:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: academic elites are grudgingly recognized. spike I am confused. Your post seems to suggest that academic achievement is somehow being suppressed. Explain please. bill w On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown > > > > > > >>?But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. bill w > > > > > > >?Unfortunately, it already is, and has been as long as I?ve been able to > understand that type of nuance. > > > > >?Elite is used in mainly two contexts ?the elite? which is an extremely > loaded, negative statement, or a self-aggrandizing one, and ?an elite > ____?, where the blank is usually a martial reference, such as ?fighting > force?, ?sniper?, ?martial artist?. Only occasionally would it refer to > other things in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way. > > > > > > There is an important subtlety at play: the term elite is often viewed > with suspicion unless it refers to athletes. In the world of sports, the > elite athletes are celebrated, paid outrageous sums of money, offered huge > salaries for saying nice things about a product, etc. We love our > celebrated athletes. > > > > Elite scholars? Hmmm? a bit problematic. Should not all students be > elite? (ehhh no.) Is it fair that some students are better than others? > (Ja.) Why should we allow academic excellence and superior achievement? > (Allow?) > > > > My experience has been positive in turned academics into a sport. I am a > volunteer coach for American Math Competition and Science Olympiad. We are > trying to organize a Codeo team (programming competition.) For some odd > reason, academic super-achievement is OK so long as it is an actual sport. > > > > Granted of course: as team sports go, the academic sports carry the lowest > status and the funding for it is carried by the parents. But, it is > allowed to exist, and academic elites are grudgingly recognized. > > > > I claim progress. I competed in American Math Competition when I was a > senior in high school. Our newly-formed team won the county championship. > We had a blast. But our school never acknowledged it, never (as far as I > know) even knew that we had won that. Now, both AMC and Science Olympiad > are at least recognized sports. When our team won a medal last year they > mentioned our academic elites over the intercom. That?s progress. > > > > Elite academics are nowhere near being offered sponsorships. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 16:47:12 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:47:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4DE1E207-EDD0-44D2-9FDD-35FEA5FDB4EE@gmail.com> > academic elites are grudgingly recognized. > > spike > > > > I am confused. Your post seems to suggest that academic achievement is somehow being suppressed. Explain please. bill w > > > America has a strong anti-intellectual bent. SR Ballard > > >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>?But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> >?Unfortunately, it already is, and has been as long as I?ve been able to understand that type of nuance. >> >> >> >> >?Elite is used in mainly two contexts ?the elite? which is an extremely loaded, negative statement, or a self-aggrandizing one, and ?an elite ____?, where the blank is usually a martial reference, such as ?fighting force?, ?sniper?, ?martial artist?. Only occasionally would it refer to other things in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way. >> >> >> >> >> >> There is an important subtlety at play: the term elite is often viewed with suspicion unless it refers to athletes. In the world of sports, the elite athletes are celebrated, paid outrageous sums of money, offered huge salaries for saying nice things about a product, etc. We love our celebrated athletes. >> >> >> >> Elite scholars? Hmmm? a bit problematic. Should not all students be elite? (ehhh no.) Is it fair that some students are better than others? (Ja.) Why should we allow academic excellence and superior achievement? (Allow?) >> >> >> >> My experience has been positive in turned academics into a sport. I am a volunteer coach for American Math Competition and Science Olympiad. We are trying to organize a Codeo team (programming competition.) For some odd reason, academic super-achievement is OK so long as it is an actual sport. >> >> >> >> Granted of course: as team sports go, the academic sports carry the lowest status and the funding for it is carried by the parents. But, it is allowed to exist, and academic elites are grudgingly recognized. >> >> >> >> I claim progress. I competed in American Math Competition when I was a senior in high school. Our newly-formed team won the county championship. We had a blast. But our school never acknowledged it, never (as far as I know) even knew that we had won that. Now, both AMC and Science Olympiad are at least recognized sports. When our team won a medal last year they mentioned our academic elites over the intercom. That?s progress. >> >> >> >> Elite academics are nowhere near being offered sponsorships. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 16:48:29 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:48:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 20, 2019, at 9:23 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just access. bill w Are they allowed unfettered access to the insides of the observatories, and the surrounding land? SR Ballard > >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:29 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: >> >> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> >> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. >> >> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second >> >> best locale. >> >> >> > >> > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. >> >> >> What? No. How did you get that from what I wrote above? The >> astronomers are getting screwed, Rafal. All I am saying that the >> astronomers should not give up. How is that blaming the astronomers? >> >> >> >> Game or dirty fight, they are winning this round because federal law >> >> is on their side: >> >> > ### Really? >> >> Yes. I posted a link to the wikipedia article about the federal law in >> question earlier. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act >> >> And here is a link to the actual law: >> >> https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1996 >> >> Relevant quote: "On and after August 11, 1978, it shall be the policy >> of the United States to protect and preserve for American Indians >> their inherent right of freedom to believe, express, and exercise the >> traditional religions of the American Indian, Eskimo, Aleut, and >> Native Hawaiians, including but not limited to access to sites, use >> and possession of sacred objects, and the freedom to worship through >> ceremonials and traditional rites." >> >> The Hawaiians claim that Mauna Kea is a religious site for them. Is it >> really a religious site for them? Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't >> matter because we are talking about religion. Religion is not based on >> fact it is based on belief. And if the law does not require Christians >> to PROVE that Jesus was the son of God, then the government cannot >> require Hawaiians to prove that Muana Kea is sacred to them. >> >> Therefore, so long as the Hawaiians BELIEVE it is a sacred site to >> them, then the First Amendment and the American Indian Religious >> Freedom Act (which explicitly includes the native Hawaiians) clearly >> guarantees them access to the site. >> >> I am not a lawyer or a judge, but the language that the law is written >> in is not all that obscure for legalese. If you interpret the law that >> I quoted differently than I do, please explain. >> >> >> We must reconcile with the native Hawaiians or risk violating our own >> >> laws to remove them from the mountain by force. That is the reality of >> >> the situation for the time being. >> > ### "We" need to reconcile with violent lawbreakers? >> >> So far the protests have been tense and volatile but there hasn't been >> any violence yet, as far as I know, from either side. If the >> alternative to reconciliation is violent conflict, then yes I prefer >> reconciliation by all means. Not because I am a pacifist necessarily, >> but because the USA is in precarious situation right now. I have never >> seen such toxic partisanship in domestic politics like I have in the >> last few years drawn along socioeconomic and racial lines. >> >> The hostility is palpable and it feels like a powder keg ready to go >> off. Sending in the military to forcibly quell the Hawaiian protests >> could be the spark that sets off civil war in the U.S. And that would >> be devastating to our civilization. If you think that these protests >> hinder astronomy then imagine what kind of set back to all of science >> an all out civil war would be. >> >> > So let me ask you just one political question: >> > >> > On whose side are you? >> >> I am annoyed by the protestors, and I wish they would just go home and >> let the TMT be built. In fact, I agree with John Clark that they >> probably didn't really decide the mountain was sacred until they found >> out it was valuable to the Haoles. But there is no way to prove what >> somebody does or does not believe when it comes to religion. >> >> So ultimately, I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and holding >> the republic together. Therefore I prefer to find a solution to the >> standoff that doesn't involve shooting American citizens (which the >> Hawaiians are) even if it involves delay or compromise. After all to >> quote Benjamin Franklin, "There never was a good war or a bad peace." >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 16:48:13 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 12:48:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 10:40 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike I am confused. Your post seems to suggest that academic > achievement is somehow being suppressed. > I'm confused that you're confused. The fact is that the destruction of the Thirty Meter Telescope has suppressed our knowledge of the universe which the telescope would have been starting to tell us right now were it not for the activities of barbarians. Ignorance has defeated knowledge. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 17:04:51 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 12:04:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <4DE1E207-EDD0-44D2-9FDD-35FEA5FDB4EE@gmail.com> References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> <4DE1E207-EDD0-44D2-9FDD-35FEA5FDB4EE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Spike - can you tell me what's happening in your school? And we have always had an anti-intellectual bent. Natural thing - envy. Refusal to believe that someone is way better than you, despite tons of evidence. And it's also political - most of the undereducated people are conservatives and most educators are liberals. Natural antagonism. Just think of all the toys/tools/gadgets/autos etc. we have that took scientific studies to develop, or just good engineering. I wonder if high schools teach about TV and radio and radar and all the rest in some class. If they did I'll bet the Ss would have a greater appreciation for what elite intelligences have given them. How many hours went into the development of the iPhone and its predecessors? Millions for sure. bill w On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 11:50 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > academic elites are grudgingly recognized. > > spike > > > I am confused. Your post seems to suggest that academic achievement is > somehow being suppressed. Explain please. bill w > > > America has a strong anti-intellectual bent. > > SR Ballard > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:21 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf >> Of *SR Ballard via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown >> >> >> >> >> >> >>?But I don't want to see 'elite' become a dirty word. bill w >> >> >> >> >> >> >?Unfortunately, it already is, and has been as long as I?ve been able to >> understand that type of nuance. >> >> >> >> >?Elite is used in mainly two contexts ?the elite? which is an extremely >> loaded, negative statement, or a self-aggrandizing one, and ?an elite >> ____?, where the blank is usually a martial reference, such as ?fighting >> force?, ?sniper?, ?martial artist?. Only occasionally would it refer to >> other things in a matter-of-fact, non-judgemental way. >> >> >> >> >> >> There is an important subtlety at play: the term elite is often viewed >> with suspicion unless it refers to athletes. In the world of sports, the >> elite athletes are celebrated, paid outrageous sums of money, offered huge >> salaries for saying nice things about a product, etc. We love our >> celebrated athletes. >> >> >> >> Elite scholars? Hmmm? a bit problematic. Should not all students be >> elite? (ehhh no.) Is it fair that some students are better than others? >> (Ja.) Why should we allow academic excellence and superior achievement? >> (Allow?) >> >> >> >> My experience has been positive in turned academics into a sport. I am a >> volunteer coach for American Math Competition and Science Olympiad. We are >> trying to organize a Codeo team (programming competition.) For some odd >> reason, academic super-achievement is OK so long as it is an actual sport. >> >> >> >> Granted of course: as team sports go, the academic sports carry the >> lowest status and the funding for it is carried by the parents. But, it is >> allowed to exist, and academic elites are grudgingly recognized. >> >> >> >> I claim progress. I competed in American Math Competition when I was a >> senior in high school. Our newly-formed team won the county championship. >> We had a blast. But our school never acknowledged it, never (as far as I >> know) even knew that we had won that. Now, both AMC and Science Olympiad >> are at least recognized sports. When our team won a medal last year they >> mentioned our academic elites over the intercom. That?s progress. >> >> >> >> Elite academics are nowhere near being offered sponsorships. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 17:06:22 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:06:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Something Deeply Hidden Message-ID: I've just finished Sean Carroll's new book "Something Deeply Hidden" and I thought it was excellent, it makes the strongest case I've seen for the Many World's view of Quantum Mechanics. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 17:33:42 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:33:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not > include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just > access. bill w > > > Are they allowed unfettered access to the insides of the observatories, > and the surrounding land? > Not only do the native Hawaiians have unfettered access everybody does, they give public tours of the observatory, or rather they did before the barbarian attack. The astronomers need courage to visit their observatory now and I doubt their insurance would allow public tours anymore because of potential liability claims. By the way, protesting telescopes has now become fashionable and apparently looks like fun to a lot of people. In La Palma on the Canary Islands (the distant second best observing site in the northern hemisphere) for the first time protesters have appeared and they are determined to stop any telescope being built on their mountain too. And so the ignorance plague spreads. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 20 18:01:17 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:01:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00e201d56fdd$66ce7680$346b6380$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown academic elites are grudgingly recognized. spike I am confused. Your post seems to suggest that academic achievement is somehow being suppressed. Explain please. bill w Schools get nervous when a small group of students are mastering everything. It makes them look as though they are giving some kind of royal jelly to these students and not the rest of them. The public schools are not comfortable with even having academic super-elites. So now, we convert it to a sport. We have always had Science Fair (most of the projects are fake) and Spelling Bee (snoooooze?) but now we get Science Olympiad, American Math Competition and Codeo. Now the super-elites are on the team, so all is well. Or rather mostly well. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 18:05:16 2019 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 20:05:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Something Deeply Hidden In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very good book indeed! On 2019. Sep 20., Fri at 19:27, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I've just finished Sean Carroll's new book "Something Deeply Hidden" and > I thought it was excellent, it makes the strongest case I've seen for the > Many World's view of Quantum Mechanics. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 18:22:59 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:22:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You seem to have a different concept of ?unfettered.? Presumably, SR meant unfettered in the conventional sense: access which is _uncontrolled_ by others in terms of both scope and timing. The way you use the term would mean that something like a public tour of the Theo Chocolate factory in Seattle is ?unfettered access.? In fact, there?s a tour guide and you?re not really allowed on most of the factory floor. (Which is a good thing as I don?t want tourists sneezing or getting their body hairs in my chocolate.;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Sep 20, 2019, at 10:36 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just access. bill w >> >> > Are they allowed unfettered access to the insides of the observatories, and the surrounding land? > > Not only do the native Hawaiians have unfettered access everybody does, they give public tours of the observatory, or rather they did before the barbarian attack. The astronomers need courage to visit their observatory now and I doubt their insurance would allow public tours anymore because of potential liability claims. > > By the way, protesting telescopes has now become fashionable and apparently looks like fun to a lot of people. In La Palma on the Canary Islands (the distant second best observing site in the northern hemisphere) for the first time protesters have appeared and they are determined to stop any telescope being built on their mountain too. And so the ignorance plague spreads. > > John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Sep 20 18:28:17 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:28:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190824134728.Horde.shcvTAJi67MGjslnC95bIjB@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <589433884.3539050.1568147138418@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910133712.Horde.StyLh1qXu5s7Jh2m6Cl_d5e@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1586131552.3630967.1568170511789@mail.yahoo.com> <20190910203033.Horde.nyXR8cLr0d2manfFb0111lh@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <2091811260.5212429.1568614768949@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918080612.Horde.zVjgd0FzP0E7LfrTD2s6Uc9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1506902441.6425319.1568861064416@mail.yahoo.com> <20190918203029.Horde.UxdLDLQsQvPGiDg-RxgxAEl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <005f01d56fbe$3f0a0bb0$bd1e2310$@rainier66.com> <4DE1E207-EDD0-44D2-9FDD-35FEA5FDB4EE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012801d56fe1$2c7be720$8573b560$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown >?Spike - can you tell me what's happening in your school? And we have always had an anti-intellectual bent. Natural thing - envy. Refusal to believe that someone is way better than you, despite tons of evidence. And it's also political - most of the undereducated people are conservatives and most educators are liberals. Natural antagonism. BillW, let me go off on a fun tangent from your comment about undereducated people are conservative and most educators are liberals. Just for fun, and let me acknowledge up front, that your mileage may vary. Instead of the misused and vilified term ?liberal? let us use progressive, not necessarily politically but as one model has it: the conservative doesn?t want too much change, but the progressive is good with major changes that happen quickly. For the sake argument, let?s go with it. By that paradigm, our legal system is perhaps one of the most progressive aspects of our culture, for it is adapting to so many new stimuli, such as the functional legalization of dope in pretty much all forms. If we look at the other end of the spectrum, the most conservative aspect of modern culture would be? the public education system. Faced with astonishing new technologies and opportunities, the public school system struggles to maintain the factory education model, even after it is perfectly clear that it doesn?t work for everyone. With the arrival of excellent free online curricula, the student has the option of just going out and getting everything she needs, gobbling up advanced educational material at her own pace, going far beyond what the schools can or will provide. This isn?t the school?s fault. There is a large contingency of parents who believe their children should be taught the same way they were, even though their world is far different from the one we grew up in. If children were taught the same things we were in the same way, I consider that an abject failure. But that is what they are asked to do. The worst part of it is that schools are incentivized not to improve average scores but to reduce the spread between the high achievers and the low. In spite of every effort, that spread is increasing dramatically. Oh boy can I offer examples of that in my own community, mercy. The public school is still mostly populated with students who expect the teacher to be a sage on the stage, giving traditional lectures, not expecting (or getting) much in return. The elite students expect the teacher to be a guide on the side, and they fully expect (and achieve) far beyond what the teacher know. Details available on request. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 18:30:41 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:30:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In fact, there?s a tour guide and you?re not really allowed on most of the factory floor. (Which is a good thing as I don?t want tourists sneezing or getting their body hairs in my chocolate.;) Regards, Dan You do know that most things have an acceptable level of rat hairs and feces? Ditto roaches? bill w On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:25 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > You seem to have a different concept of ?unfettered.? Presumably, SR meant > unfettered in the conventional sense: access which is _uncontrolled_ by > others in terms of both scope and timing. The way you use the term would > mean that something like a public tour of the Theo Chocolate factory in > Seattle is ?unfettered access.? In fact, there?s a tour guide and you?re > not really allowed on most of the factory floor. (Which is a good thing as > I don?t want tourists sneezing or getting their body hairs in my > chocolate.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Sep 20, 2019, at 10:36 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:04 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does >> not include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. >> Just access. bill w >> >> > Are they allowed unfettered access to the insides of the >> observatories, and the surrounding land? >> > > Not only do the native Hawaiians have unfettered access everybody does, > they give public tours of the observatory, or rather they did before the > barbarian attack. The astronomers need courage to visit their observatory > now and I doubt their insurance would allow public tours anymore because of > potential liability claims. > > By the way, protesting telescopes has now become fashionable and > apparently looks like fun to a lot of people. In La Palma on the Canary > Islands (the distant second best observing site in the northern hemisphere) > for the first time protesters have appeared and they are determined to > stop any telescope being built on their mountain too. And so the > ignorance plague spreads. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Sep 20 18:47:17 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:47:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68CEF418-8706-45ED-A8EF-FE71CF009B27@gmail.com> I know that the government sets minima on some of those things. I?m not sure why you?re bringing this up here. To shock me? To be honest, I?ve been to the Theo factory but I don?t usually consume their products. I was making a joke. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Sep 20, 2019, at 11:39 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > In fact, there?s a tour guide and you?re not really allowed on most of the factory floor. (Which is a good thing as I don?t want tourists sneezing or getting their body hairs in my chocolate.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > > You do know that most things have an acceptable level of rat hairs and feces? Ditto roaches? > bill w > >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:25 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >> You seem to have a different concept of ?unfettered.? Presumably, SR meant unfettered in the conventional sense: access which is _uncontrolled_ by others in terms of both scope and timing. The way you use the term would mean that something like a public tour of the Theo Chocolate factory in Seattle is ?unfettered access.? In fact, there?s a tour guide and you?re not really allowed on most of the factory floor. (Which is a good thing as I don?t want tourists sneezing or getting their body hairs in my chocolate.;) >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 00:11:19 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 20:11:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Fall, or Dodge in Hell In-Reply-To: <6F3AC5B2-37B7-4F1C-AF17-8815E5C43EB7@me.com> References: <6F3AC5B2-37B7-4F1C-AF17-8815E5C43EB7@me.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 5:41 AM Omar Rahman via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The elements of the book which took place outside the shared digital > reality were quite well done. Especially the extrapolations of current > trends, for example; various religious extremists clinging to ever more > absurd dogmas, atavistic libertarians forming ever shrinking and devolving > little tribes, social media and human knowledge being so manipulated that > there is no clear common view of reality. > ### Lack of a common view of reality is and since time immemorial has been an obvious feature of our social world. Stephenson uses up-to-date jargon and modern social tropes to restate the obvious. He doesn't write about various religious extremists. He very specifically concentrates on vilifying American flyover state Evangelicals. This is just ritual denunciation of an out-group, not a plausible extrapolation of trends. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 00:12:49 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 20:12:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Something Deeply Hidden In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:28 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I've just finished Sean Carroll's new book "Something Deeply Hidden" and > I thought it was excellent, it makes the strongest case I've seen for the > Many World's view of Quantum Mechanics. > > ### One-click and bought! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 00:50:56 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 20:50:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:28 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:02 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> The telescope is only a casualty if the money is spent somewhere else. > >> If astronomers are patient, they may not have to settle for the second > >> best locale. > >> > > > > ### So any harm is the astronomers' fault, after all. > > > What? No. How did you get that from what I wrote above? The > astronomers are getting screwed, Rafal. All I am saying that the > astronomers should not give up. How is that blaming the astronomers? > ### Sorry, my misunderstanding. --------------- > I am not a lawyer or a judge, but the language that the law is written > in is not all that obscure for legalese. If you interpret the law that > I quoted differently than I do, please explain. > ### Appropriate permits have been granted for the construction of the telescope. Rioters have physically interfered with lawful actions taken in accordance with said permits, and have further interfered with routine functioning of existing telescopes. The rioters are clearly law-breakers. What specific rights are implied by AIRFA depends on relevant federal and state court and government agency decisions. So far the state has not decided that AIRFA rights include the right to exclude astronomers from their property, thus AIRFA is not relevant to the case. ----------------------- > > So far the protests have been tense and volatile but there hasn't been > any violence yet, as far as I know, from either side. ### Occupation of a public road and forceful prevention of normal traffic on that road is violence. ------------------------- > > The hostility is palpable and it feels like a powder keg ready to go > off. Sending in the military to forcibly quell the Hawaiian protests > could be the spark that sets off civil war in the U.S. And that would > be devastating to our civilization. If you think that these protests > hinder astronomy then imagine what kind of set back to all of science > an all out civil war would be. > > So ultimately, I am on the side of the U.S. Constitution and holding > the republic together. Therefore I prefer to find a solution to the > standoff that doesn't involve shooting American citizens (which the > Hawaiians are) even if it involves delay or compromise. After all to > quote Benjamin Franklin, "There never was a good war or a bad peace." > > ### Oh, I agree with you there. Using state force to disperse the rioters would be counterproductive. But there are other methods - loudspeakers chanting slogans of science and playing music of the spheres, counter-protests with cavalcades of science fans on foot, pushing their way up, all on camera, bearing paraphernalia of our faith - telescopes, laptops, weather balloons and alembics full of frothing multicolored liquids. Let's have a citizens' astronomy night at the mountain - bring your own telescope, have you and you children look at the stars and listen to stories of our tribe's travails at the hands of forces of darkness. And if the rioters raise a hand against a child with a telescope, then that hand will be struck down. One percent of the TMT budget used as a public-relations tool could pay for a lot of counter-protests. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 21 00:58:21 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 17:58:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 192, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20190920175821.Horde.PiMWCone-KtHnYpw0kVTL4b@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not > include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just > access. bill w Yes, but by legally guaranteeing them access, you also automatically grant them the right to assemble there as per the 1st Amendment. Most of the time when protesters get arrested it is because they are trespassing. This does not apply if they are guaranteed access by federal law. They are exercising their 1st Amendment rights strengthened by the American Indian Religious Freedom Act and that effectively gives them the right to do what they are doing. Legal scholars please correct me if I am wrong. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 05:06:50 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 01:06:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 192, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: <20190920175821.Horde.PiMWCone-KtHnYpw0kVTL4b@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190920175821.Horde.PiMWCone-KtHnYpw0kVTL4b@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 11:36 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > > > >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not > > include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. > Just > > access. bill w > > Yes, but by legally guaranteeing them access, you also automatically > grant them the right to assemble there as per the 1st Amendment. Most > of the time when protesters get arrested it is because they are > trespassing. This does not apply if they are guaranteed access by > federal law. > > They are exercising their 1st Amendment rights strengthened by the > American Indian Religious Freedom Act and that effectively gives them > the right to do what they are doing. Legal scholars please correct me > if I am wrong. ### I don't have to be legal scholar to know that blockading public roads and committing battery on road users is not allowed by law. They are violent law-breakers and the police fail to act for political reasons. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 21 01:02:31 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:02:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown Message-ID: <20190920180231.Horde.U7jRJcEvqO9xQ5vAeQ2GXJZ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > >> From the law you quote it seems to me that 'access to the site' does not > include sole possession of it or ability to determine the use of it. Just > access. bill w Yes, but by legally guaranteeing them access, you also automatically grant them the right to assemble there as per the 1st Amendment. Most of the time when protesters get arrested it is because they are trespassing. This does not apply if they are guaranteed access by federal law. They are exercising their 1st Amendment rights strengthened by the American Indian Religious Freedom Act and that effectively gives them the right to do what they are doing. Legal scholars please correct me if I am wrong. Stuart LaForge duplicate to fix subject error From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 09:59:15 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 05:59:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:25 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> You seem to have a different concept of ?unfettered.? Presumably, SR > meant unfettered in the conventional sense: access which is _uncontrolled_ > by others in terms of both scope and timing.* > There is no place in the USA like that, everywhere native Hawaiians and everybody else is _controlled_ by law, such as laws against murder, rape, burning down the observatory, threatening astronomers and blockading a public road. However the law is not always enforced. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 11:41:49 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 07:41:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:29 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > All I am saying that the astronomers should not give up.* I disagree. I hate to say this but the astronomers are never going to win this fight. Now that protestors are organizing to stop astronomers from moving to La Palma in the Canary islands, the (distant) second best observing site in the northern hemisphere, I think it's time for astronomers to face reality and make the painful decision to abandon half the universe and build the magnificent telescope at Dome C in Antarctica or in the Atacama Desert of Peru in the southern hemisphere where people are more civilized than in the north. The wonders that exist in deep space in the northern half of the universe, as well as near earth asteroids and comets, will have to wait for future generations to find, generations that are more enlightened. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 12:18:47 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 08:18:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy Message-ID: There is a rumor that a team of researchers at Google led by John Martinis have performed a calculation on a Quantum Computer in three minutes and 20 seconds that would have taken Summit, the most powerful conventional supercomputer in the world, 10,000 years to perform. The rumor started when a paper stating that was posted by the Google team, apparently accidentally, on a NASA website and then quickly taken down. It's not clear exactly what the calculation was about, they just said it ?marks the first computation that can only be performed on a quantum processor". My guess is it was probably a weird function of some sort that would not be of much use to a scientist or engineer, but if true it would be a first proof of concept and be earthsharing. I suppose they want to check and recheck their work before they make a official announcement this important. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 21 17:56:35 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:56:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <717225431.7253580.1569083299280@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <717225431.7253580.1569083299280@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190921105635.Horde.X5b3-pL3JjTSaexJajaScbf@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > > All I am saying that the?astronomers should not give up. > > I disagree.?I hate to say this but the astronomers are never going > to win this fight. Now that protestors are organizing to stop > astronomers from moving to La Palma in the Canary islands, the > (distant) second best observing site in the northern hemisphere, This I don't understand. Is this the design for the telescope a hideous eyesore? Does it spew toxic waste? That conflict has nothing to do with religion, race, or colonialism. The protesters there are affluent mostly white Europeans. > I think it's time for astronomers to face reality and make the > painful decision to abandon half the universe and build the > magnificent telescope at Dome C in Antarctica or in the Atacama > Desert of Peru in the southern hemisphere where people are more > civilized than in the north. If the TMT is of any use in detecting asteroids posing a threat to the biosphere or even a hypothetical off-world invasion fleet, then it is a existential risk to NOT build it in the northern hemisphere which is where 90% of the human population lives. > The wonders that exist in deep space in the northern half of the > universe, as well as near earth asteroids and comets, will have to > wait for future generations to find, generations that are more > enlightened.? The astronomers really need to spin this NEO detection angle. I doubt environmentalists want to go extinct. It might work on the Hawaiians too. Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Sep 21 18:43:25 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 14:43:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190921105635.Horde.X5b3-pL3JjTSaexJajaScbf@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <717225431.7253580.1569083299280@mail.yahoo.com> <20190921105635.Horde.X5b3-pL3JjTSaexJajaScbf@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 1:59 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > Is this the design for the telescope a hideous eyesore?* No. > > Does it spew toxic waste? No > *This I don't understand.* I think maybe I do. Wielding power can be fun and the Hawaiian protesters proved that a very small handful of average people who have no special skills or insights can totally derail a mighty 1.5 billion dollar telescope and plunge a lot of non-average people with fancy booklearing degrees into despair. That's a lot of power and some people in the Canary Islands were playing close attention to how it all unfolded, and after that ... well... monkey see monkey do. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Sep 21 17:22:43 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:22:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <868493766.7263121.1569084278119@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <868493766.7263121.1569084278119@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190921102243.Horde.K8SFTt9Cx1z8jhoVIIM3kMz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigdrozki: > ### Oh, I agree with you there. Using state force to disperse the > rioters would be counterproductive. But there are other methods - > loudspeakers chanting slogans of science and playing music of the > spheres, counter-protests with cavalcades of science fans on foot, > pushing their way up, all on camera, bearing paraphernalia of our > faith - telescopes, laptops, weather balloons and alembics full of > frothing multicolored liquids. Let's have a citizens' astronomy > night at the mountain - bring your own telescope, have you and you > children look at the stars and listen to stories of our tribe's > travails at the hands of forces of darkness. And if the rioters > raise a hand against a child with a telescope, then that hand will > be struck down. > One percent of the TMT budget used as a public-relations tool could > pay for a lot of counter-protests. This is precisely the kind of creative strategies the astronomers need to consider. The astronomers most certainly need to leverage the support of the 44% of native Hawaiians who are in favor of the TMT against the 48% that oppose it. That's just a 4% margin and easily within the sway of clever PR and marketing. Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 00:24:37 2019 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 20:24:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <20190921102243.Horde.K8SFTt9Cx1z8jhoVIIM3kMz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <868493766.7263121.1569084278119@mail.yahoo.com> <20190921102243.Horde.K8SFTt9Cx1z8jhoVIIM3kMz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 2:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The astronomers most certainly need to leverage the > support of the 44% of native Hawaiians who are in favor of the TMT > against the 48% that oppose it. That's just a 4% margin and easily > within the sway of clever PR and marketing. ### I am not sure about the "easily" part. Going against passionate and hateful ethnics is not easy, unless you can nuke them from orbit. But, short of that, we good people should organize into a political pressure group, The Friends of Science, with a direct action arm called The Friends of Scientists. Hulking grad students, casually swinging their baseball bats, should accompany scientists as they walk through enemy lines to man (or woman) the telescopes. Make it into a show of force, don't pick fights but finish them. Political success relies on PR and heavy boots, stomping on faces. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Sep 22 01:00:19 2019 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:00:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: <1383164451.7305883.1569113435298@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <868493766.7263121.1569084278119@mail.yahoo.com> <20190921102243.Horde.K8SFTt9Cx1z8jhoVIIM3kMz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <1383164451.7305883.1569113435298@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20190921180019.Horde.9lhOEOb1NKT9j0uHdSWWiJn@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Rafal Smigrodzki: ? > ?The astronomers most certainly need to leverage the? > support of the 44% of native Hawaiians who are in favor of the TMT? > against the 48% that oppose it. That's just a 4% margin and easily? > within the sway of clever PR and marketing. > > ### I am not sure about the "easily" part. > Going against passionate and hateful ethnics is not easy, unless you > can nuke them from orbit. But, short of that, we good people should > organize into a political pressure group, The Friends of Science, > with a direct action arm called The Friends of Scientists. Hulking > grad students, casually swinging their baseball bats, should > accompany scientists as they walk through enemy lines to man (or > woman) the telescopes. Make it into a show of force, don't pick > fights but finish them. > Political success relies on PR and heavy boots, stomping on faces. Funny the protesters don't look violent at all. They look like old people sitting in lawn chairs with their grand kids. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mauna-kea-protest-activists-block-road-in-protest-of-hawaii-telescope-location-2019-07-15/ It's going to take some hardened mafioso types to swing baseball bats through that crowd and stomp those faces. Can you find a link to the alleged battery? Stuart LaForge From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 08:36:51 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 04:36:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy Message-ID: The Google paper that was briefly posted said that they proved "*Quantum speedup is achievable in a real-world system and is not precluded by any hidden physical laws"*, and they predict " *quantum computing power will grow at a double exponential rate*". Double exponential rate? That's starting to sound a bit like a singularity. A Major Milestone in Computing John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 12:35:19 2019 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 13:35:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Update on the Hawaiian observatory shutdown In-Reply-To: References: <20190919212554.Horde.Zhb5ilNEhnMUDcJj84VB7Aj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <868493766.7263121.1569084278119@mail.yahoo.com> <20190921102243.Horde.K8SFTt9Cx1z8jhoVIIM3kMz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 at 01:28, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > Going against passionate and hateful ethnics is not easy, unless you can nuke them from orbit. But, short of that, we good people should organize into a political pressure group, The Friends of Science, with a direct action arm called The Friends of Scientists. Hulking grad students, casually swinging their baseball bats, should accompany scientists as they walk through enemy lines to man (or woman) the telescopes. Make it into a show of force, don't pick fights but finish them. > > Political success relies on PR and heavy boots, stomping on faces. > What happens when everybody is protesting about something or other? Hawaiian protests about land misuse. Canary Islands environmental protesters. 4 Million worldwide climate change protesters. Populist politics enraged protesters (for and against). Protests about wealth inequality and ignored problems in society. Protests about surveillance, online tracking, face recognition, licence plate tracking, etc. #MeToo protests. And so on........ I get the impression that a large number of people feel that modern society is going to hell in a handbasket. The telescope protest might just be a small ripple in a tsunami of upheaval about to break over society. BillK From hibbard at wisc.edu Sun Sep 22 12:38:40 2019 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 12:38:40 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Kosher food (was Update on the Hawaiian ...) Message-ID: > You do know that most things have an acceptable level of > rat hairs and feces? Ditto roaches? I have heard this is one reason to buy kosher food: https://www.mediaite.com/food/kosher-certification-means-no-bugs/ Don't know much about this. Perhaps some kosher inspectors are more diligent than others. Bill From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 20:30:30 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:30:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] emotions Message-ID: It was shown a while back by neuropsychologists that if the limbic system is cut off from the frontal cortex the person cannot make decisions, even simple ones. They dither and give up. Case study of brain damage. An attitude in psych means a leaning. No leaning without emotions. Emotions are what gives you your like or dislike (or rather it IS your like or dislike) David Hume, as you may know, advocated emotions as being of more importance than reason - way ahead of his time in this and other things. So I was just wondering: traditionally (how many of us fit that mold?) women are seen as more emotional than men and thus less able in reasoning. Both of those are false, but the culture hasn't caught up yet, I think. No pure reason. Emotions rule in the end - or the beginning. We need to learn a lot more about emotions and their role in thinking and decision-making. Are we to consider women now as superior to men because they use emotions more? Or at least equal? (No we are not talking about higher math here.) Emotions were never mentioned at the strict Behaviorism grad school I went to. (I have wondered about that every since.) If you have learned about the brain link above, or if you just learned it here, what do you think of it, if anything? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Sep 22 20:35:47 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:35:47 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gifted Message-ID: We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you since no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply amazed. I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the high social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 22 21:19:30 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 14:19:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy The Google paper that was briefly posted said that they proved "Quantum speedup is achievable in a real-world system and is not precluded by any hidden physical laws", and they predict " quantum computing power will grow at a double exponential rate". Double exponential rate? That's starting to sound a bit like a singularity. A Major Milestone in Computing John K Clark >?If this rumor is true, that?s exactly what it is. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Sep 22 21:32:46 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 14:32:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy In-Reply-To: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> References: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01dd01d5718d$46d77370$d4865a50$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy Double exponential rate? That's starting to sound a bit like a singularity. A Major Milestone in Computing John K Clark >?If this rumor is true, that?s exactly what it is. Spike And if so, we can kiss our asses hello. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 00:30:44 2019 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:30:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ArXiv question Message-ID: <69BE805E-DD8E-4847-A36F-A585A6B5A922@gmail.com> I know plenty of folks cite papers on ArXiv. I?ve even done so. I haven?t done a search in this, but what?s the overall feeling here of how trustworthy a paper there? I realize that peer-reviewed papers have their problems too. I?m just thinking that overall, all else being equal, shouldn?t one treat a paper on ArXiv as less reliable that one published in a peer-reviewed publication? Of course, some ArXiv papers do go on to to publication in a peer-reviewed venue. And some important papers never make to a peer-review journal, yet seem widely accepted inside their field. Also, I would rank, again all else being equal, ArXiv above, say, someone publishing it only on their personal site. This isn?t to diss these either. Someone?s dissertation or lecture notes might be punished on their personal site and yet be both pertinent and influential as well as accepted as valid inside their field. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 01:32:32 2019 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 19:32:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy In-Reply-To: <01dd01d5718d$46d77370$d4865a50$@rainier66.com> References: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> <01dd01d5718d$46d77370$d4865a50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Quantum Computers are not ?Turing complete? right? Can they do ALL crypto hash guessing fast? Some hash algorithms are way different than others. Some requiring lots of memory, for example. Can they do any kind of tensor flow stuff all the AI chips do these days?... On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 3:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Quantum Supremacy > > > > Double exponential rate? That's starting to sound a bit like a > singularity. > > > > A Major Milestone in Computing > > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > >?If this rumor is true, that?s exactly what it is. > > > > Spike > > > > > > And if so, we can kiss our asses hello. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Sep 23 02:44:25 2019 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 19:44:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] gifted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <020401d571b8$d0a8c420$71fa4c60$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 1:36 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] gifted We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you since no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply amazed. I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the high social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html bill w BillW, I hope this is true, for I am INTP and hit every one of these characteristics except looking younger than my age. I did at one time, but my looks caught up and surpassed my biological age at a dead run. As for starting sex later than our peers, it would depend on how one defines the term ?peers.? My closest friends back then all got laid for the first time when in our 20s. I think that was perhaps late by the standards of the 1970s, but we geeks were all like that: women could not risk social suicide by being seen with us. Even the very few and revered geek girls wouldn?t be seen with us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 05:39:06 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:39:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gifted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <702B9E6D-8AB1-4377-9F85-E36891063C4A@gmail.com> I?m an INTP and fit these to a T, except for maybe ?highly sensitive person? because I have no clue what that means. If that means I cry at the slightest provocation, such as when a robot is being beaten with sticks in a video, then yeah. But also you have to learn how to ?turn your emotions off? in an instant to be able to survive, so I?m seen as very cold and cruel by some people and a cry baby by others. Sr Ballard > On Sep 22, 2019, at 3:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you since no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply amazed. I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the high social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? > > https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 08:00:02 2019 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 04:00:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy In-Reply-To: References: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> <01dd01d5718d$46d77370$d4865a50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quantum Computers are not ?Turing complete? right? Can they do ALL > crypto hash guessing fast? Some hash algorithms are way different than > others. Some requiring lots of memory, for example. Can they do any kind > of tensor flow stuff all the AI chips do these days?... > Quantum Computers are Turing complete, they can do everything a conventional computer can do, but they might not be faster at everything. Today we know they're faster at predicting what a physical system will do, like how a amino acid sequence will fold up, and faster at cracking all public encryption methods that use factoring numbers as RSA does or Elliptic-curve cryptography as Bitcoin does. Quantum Computers are also faster at search; if you were searching a old fashioned telephone book with a million entries trying to find a name to go with a telephone number you had then you would on average have to go through 500,000 operations before you found a match but a Quantum Computer would only need 1,000, its the difference between N/2 and the square root of N. They're also faster at finding the optimal solution to complex scheduling problems. They can probably do lots of other things faster too but we can't really test what the limits of Quantum Computers are until we have one and can play around with it, I think it's sorta like how we were with conventional computers in the late 1940s. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 15:21:02 2019 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:21:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Quantum Supremacy In-Reply-To: References: <01c901d5718b$6ca7d970$45f78c50$@rainier66.com> <01dd01d5718d$46d77370$d4865a50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Wow, very helpful. Thanks a bunch John. Brent On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:02 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 9:36 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Quantum Computers are not ?Turing complete? right? Can they do ALL >> crypto hash guessing fast? Some hash algorithms are way different than >> others. Some requiring lots of memory, for example. Can they do any kind >> of tensor flow stuff all the AI chips do these days?... >> > > Quantum Computers are Turing complete, they can do everything a > conventional computer can do, but they might not be faster at everything. > Today we know they're faster at predicting what a physical system will do, > like how a amino acid sequence will fold up, and faster at cracking all > public encryption methods that use factoring numbers as RSA does or > Elliptic-curve cryptography as Bitcoin does. Quantum Computers are also > faster at search; if you were searching a old fashioned telephone book with > a million entries trying to find a name to go with a telephone number you > had then you would on average have to go through 500,000 operations before > you found a match but a Quantum Computer would only need 1,000, its the > difference between N/2 and the square root of N. They're also faster at > finding the optimal solution to complex scheduling problems. > > They can probably do lots of other things faster too but we can't really > test what the limits of Quantum Computers are until we have one and can > play around with it, I think it's sorta like how we were with conventional > computers in the late 1940s. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 15:51:11 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gifted In-Reply-To: <702B9E6D-8AB1-4377-9F85-E36891063C4A@gmail.com> References: <702B9E6D-8AB1-4377-9F85-E36891063C4A@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ballard - here is a link for you including a self-test. I am definitely a HSP https://hsperson.com/ bill w On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 12:42 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m an INTP and fit these to a T, except for maybe ?highly sensitive > person? because I have no clue what that means. If that means I cry at the > slightest provocation, such as when a robot is being beaten with sticks in > a video, then yeah. But also you have to learn how to ?turn your emotions > off? in an instant to be able to survive, so I?m seen as very cold and > cruel by some people and a cry baby by others. > > Sr Ballard > > On Sep 22, 2019, at 3:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you since > no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply amazed. > I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the high > social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? > > > https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 19:16:06 2019 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:16:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gifted In-Reply-To: References: <702B9E6D-8AB1-4377-9F85-E36891063C4A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I scored 18, when the threshold is 14. SR Ballard > On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:51 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ballard - here is a link for you including a self-test. I am definitely a HSP > > https://hsperson.com/ bill w > >> On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 12:42 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I?m an INTP and fit these to a T, except for maybe ?highly sensitive person? because I have no clue what that means. If that means I cry at the slightest provocation, such as when a robot is being beaten with sticks in a video, then yeah. But also you have to learn how to ?turn your emotions off? in an instant to be able to survive, so I?m seen as very cold and cruel by some people and a cry baby by others. >> >> Sr Ballard >> >>> On Sep 22, 2019, at 3:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you since no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply amazed. I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the high social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? >>> >>> https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Sep 23 21:21:23 2019 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:21:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] gifted In-Reply-To: References: <702B9E6D-8AB1-4377-9F85-E36891063C4A@gmail.com> Message-ID: I scored 24. I drink so much coffee that caffeine doesn't bother me or I would have scored higher. bill w On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:19 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I scored 18, when the threshold is 14. > > SR Ballard > > On Sep 23, 2019, at 10:51 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Ballard - here is a link for you including a self-test. I am definitely a > HSP > > https://hsperson.com/ bill w > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 12:42 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I?m an INTP and fit these to a T, except for maybe ?highly sensitive >> person? because I have no clue what that means. If that means I cry at the >> slightest provocation, such as when a robot is being beaten with sticks in >> a video, then yeah. But also you have to learn how to ?turn your emotions >> off? in an instant to be able to survive, so I?m seen as very cold and >> cruel by some people and a cry baby by others. >> >> Sr Ballard >> >> On Sep 22, 2019, at 3:35 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> We are all pretty smart here, so I thought I'd drop this link on you >> since no one is posting much. I ran across this on Quora and was simply >> amazed. I fit nearly every single one of the characteristics, except the >> high social anxiety (my son got that in spades). How do you do? >> >> >> https://the-big-ger-picture.blogspot.com/2019/09/the-psychology-and-biology-of-gifted.html >> >> bill w >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: