[ExI] No gods, no meaning?

Fri Apr 24 22:19:27 UTC 2020

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 2:34 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:21 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>   Science cannot deal with anything unobservable.
>>>
>>
>> Our theories do. We have theories that describe the interiors of black
>> holes, other branches of the wave function, galaxies and radiation beyond
>> the cosmological horizon, etc. despite none of them being observable.
>>
>
> Yes but, your theories start from observed facts about atoms and molecules
> and fission and fusion and the spectrums of the black holes, which are
> observed indirectly via their influence on bodies near them.  This is
> hardly without observations.  All scientific theories start with observed
> facts.  Many things are not observable directly, but indirectly.  As long
> as the scientific method is use, with replication etc., you are still doing
> science.
>
>>
>> It's going to take a lot for me to swallow any idea that science and
>> religion can get together somehow.  Differen epistemologies, as I said.
>>
>>>
>>>
>> The theory of energy underwent many reformulations as our understanding
>> improved. Cannot the same happen for our understanding of God, souls,
>> reality, afterlives, etc.? Can science not investigate these subjects
>> merely because some religion claimed them first?
>>
>
> You can investigage anything if you can find something to observe.  Find
> my soul, will you?  I am going to donate it to any god who will accept it.
>

I'm currently writing a book on the science of the soul. There is much that
we can glean about the soul just using science. There is scientific support
for many ideas that one would typically assume fall into the sphere of
religion. For example: eternal life, immortality, reincarnation,
afterlives, divine union, the immateriality of the soul and its distinction
from the body.

In many cases, these conclusions are inevitable if you start from the
standard scientific ideas about consciousness (e.g. mechanism).

If it can be scientifically demonstrated that your consciousness possesses
some or all of these traits, would you call it a soul?

Jason

>
>> The Baháʼí Faith, for instance, is very explicit in its belief that
>> science and religion must be united in harmony. As it's leader described:
>>
>>
>> "*The independent search after truth, unfettered by superstition or
>> tradition; *the oneness of the entire human race, the pivotal principle
>> and fundamental doctrine of the Faith; the basic unity of all religions;
>> the condemnation of all forms of prejudice, whether religious, racial,
>> class or national;* the harmony which must exist between religion and
>> science; *the equality of men and women, the two wings on which the bird
>> of human kind is able to soar; the introduction of compulsory education;
>> the adoption of a universal auxiliary language; the abolition of the
>> extremes of wealth and poverty; the institution of a world tribunal for the
>> adjudication of disputes between nations; the exaltation of work, performed
>> in the spirit of service, to the rank of worship; the glorification of
>> justice as the ruling principle in human society, and
>>
>>
> Th above part is great and wonderful and is more politics than religion.
>

How do you draw a line that separates the two?

>
> of religion as a bulwark for the protection of all peoples and nations;
>> and the establishment of a permanent and universal peace as the supreme
>> goal of all mankind—these stand out as the essential elements [which
>> Baháʼu'lláh proclaimed]."
>>
>>
> This part is too vague to understand.
>

I take it to mean that having a set of ideals to hold in esteem
inoculates society against commuting the worst of atrocities, and also
provides a placeholder to prevent the worship of human leaders or nations.

Jason

>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>> bill w
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, April 23, 2020, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dammit, done it again!
>>>>>
>>>>> Reposted, with correct Subject line :(
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 23/04/2020 00:18, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 3:51 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22/04/2020 18:39, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>>>>>> > agnosticism is a lack of belief in gods.  Atheism is a belief in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > lack of gods.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is patently false. Agnosticism has nothing at all to say about
>>>>>> belief, it's about knowledge (from the greek, 'Gnosis', meaning
>>>>>> knowledge). Agnosticism is the position that you don't/can't know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus, a lack of belief.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not necessarily.
>>>>> Many religious people will freely admit they have no definite
>>>>> knowledge about their particular god, but still choose to believe in it. I
>>>>> know that's a logically contradictory position, but belief knows no logic.
>>>>> In fact it rejects logic.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Atheism, in it's most common form, is the lack of belief in gods.
>>>>>> Some
>>>>>> people define a 'strong', or 'hard' form of atheism that is an
>>>>>> assertion
>>>>>> that no gods exist, but that is a minority view.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These things are easy to look up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
>>>>>
>>>>> "Atheism is, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the
>>>>> existence of deities.  Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief
>>>>> that any deities exist.  In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically
>>>>> the position that there are no deities."
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess both meanings are in use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. And one is overwhelmingly more common than the other.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I say I'm an atheist, I don't want people to assume I subscribe
>>>>> to a minority interpretation of the term (mainly because, to me, it's not
>>>>> so much the non-existence of gods that is the important thing, but the not
>>>>> believing in things ('believing' as in accepting things as true without a
>>>>> shred of evidence, and even in the face of contradictory evidence).
>>>>>
>>>>> The narrowest sense is the one that needs qualification, not the
>>>>> broadest one. This is true of job titles and many other things, not just
>>>>> world-views.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> They're also definitions of God held by different religions or
>>>> different believers which are scientifically consistent.
>>>>
>>>> For example, God as the creator (consistent with the simulation
>>>> hypothesis), or God as the "world soul" -- the collection of all conscious
>>>> brings (consistent with open individualism), or God as Truth/Reality
>>>> (consistent with mathematical realism).
>>>>
>>>> It's easy to forget that there's any different religions and God's out
>>>> there, as well as varying levels sophistications of belief, even within
>>>> those religions.
>>>>
>>>> There's no reason I see that religious ideas cannot be extended and
>>>> grow together with advances in scientific understanding. To assume
>>>> otherwise and say religious ideas must stagnate perverts and restricts not
>>>> only religion but science as well.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
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