From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 06:51:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 01:51:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: loans, credit cards, social gratification. They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the first like you?re supposed to! It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not the same as far as poise goes. SR Ballard > On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the natural order of things. >> >> SR Ballard > > What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. > > Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 13:30:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:30:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the "humble Conex" box (was Re: Sharpiegate) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:05 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> In the first edition of "Where To?" in 1950 Robert A Heinlein wrote > something like "there is some device, new but seemingly humble, that will > change the world. We just don't know which." At the time he thought it > was the transistor but by the time of the second edition in 1965, he > dismissed that as a trivial* Heinlein was brilliant to predict that in 1950 and a fool to dismiss it in 1965. Imagine how the world would be different if today we had no better way to control the flow of electrons than with a vacuum tube. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 13:51:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:51:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been mentioned as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they interact all over the place. But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and chemistry. So I envy them. Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes not only worthless but misleading. Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. Not even close. Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what they are experiencing. You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now who are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you put them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your head - bah humbug. No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully scientific data as polling. I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of real, firm knowledge. bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating > responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. > > For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly > borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find > that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now > has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do > NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: > loans, credit cards, social gratification. > > They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his > brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the > first like you?re supposed to! > > It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to > become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. > > And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that > money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do > their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. > > Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of > course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not > the same as far as poise goes. > > SR Ballard > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it > requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the > natural order of things. > > SR Ballard > > > What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s always > this attitude that something is wrong with the young. > > Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s > strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff > their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, > stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 15:18:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:18:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hmmm Message-ID: Singapore gets its education students from among the top one third. We get ours from the bottom one third. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 19:37:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not necessarily? do explain please... Message-ID: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> I have been away for a coupla wk camping, mostly away from internet. The first things I checked upon my return to bandwidth is the covid rate in my county: https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx Can someone help me understand why the chart says Cumulative COVID-19 Deaths, but that comment down that the bottom seems contradictory: "Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the individuals died from COVID-19." OK, um. sure. So. why are they in the database under "Covid-19 deaths"? Over time, the number of people coming to the county coroner with Covid antibodies accumulates. If I count the new case rate from about 2 wks ago and compare to the current death rate, I too am getting about half a percent: https://reason.com/2020/07/23/there-is-more-than-one-covid-19-infection-fata lity-rate/?utm_medium=email spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Aug 1 19:39:03 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 15:39:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022cb83cbf09178a6fee9f613e870a23@ultimax.com> Well, John, you have some company, at any rate. Some good and forthright lines in here: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/31/897724197/citing-election-delay-tweet-influential-trump-ally-now-demands-his-re-impeachmen "Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats' assertion that President Trump is a fascist," the conservative legal scholar [Steven Calabresi of the Federalist Society] wrote. "But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president's immediate impeachment again by the House of Representatives and his removal from office by the Senate." [snip] He warned, "Anyone who says otherwise should never be elected to Congress again." His full Op-Ed here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/opinion/trump-delay-election-coronavirus.html K3 On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:07:44 -0400, John Clark wrote: > I'm ashamed to admit it now but I was one of those folks. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 19:57:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 14:57:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] not necessarily? do explain please... In-Reply-To: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think someone said that if a person died and had the virus, even though he did not die from it, they counted it as a virus death. Something about getting paid for virus deaths. I think I read that the first teen death in California occurred. Huh? bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > I have been away for a coupla wk camping, mostly away from internet. The > first things I checked upon my return to bandwidth is the covid rate in my > county: > > > > https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx > > > > Can someone help me understand why the chart says Cumulative COVID-19 > Deaths, but that comment down that the bottom seems contradictory: > > > > > > > > ?Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the > individuals died from COVID-19.? > > > > OK, um? sure. So? why are they in the database under ?Covid-19 deaths?? > > > > Over time, the number of people coming to the county coroner with Covid > antibodies accumulates. > > > > If I count the new case rate from about 2 wks ago and compare to the > current death rate, I too am getting about half a percent: > > > > > https://reason.com/2020/07/23/there-is-more-than-one-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate/?utm_medium=email > > > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Aug 1 20:16:05 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 16:16:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the "humble Conex" box (was Re: Sharpiegate) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77299c614bf64af6a95334aba4563168@ultimax.com> To be sure, RAH didn't think the transistor was trivial, far from it. It was his guesswork of 1950 that he said was trivial in 1965. That is, the prediction "that transistor will be revolutionary", was too easy for him. Sorry I was inexact in my meaning. K3 On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:30:40 -0400, John Clark wrote: >> In the first edition of "Where To?" in 1950 Robert A Heinlein wrote >> something like "there is some device, new but seemingly humble, that >> will >> change the world. We just don't know which." At the time he thought >> it >> was the transistor but by the time of the second edition in 1965, he >> dismissed that as a trivial* > > Heinlein was brilliant to predict that in 1950 and a fool to dismiss it > in > 1965. Imagine how the world would be different if today we had no > better > way to control the flow of electrons than with a vacuum tube. From interzone at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 20:34:49 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:34:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: I really appreciate this reply, and it makes me respect at least a subset of psychology more than I did. If it makes you feel any better, Bill, economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology does, and it truly is a dismal "science." But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. The Millenials (I can't speak as much to the Gen Zers) I have come in contact with generally have their heads screwed on straight, have gone to school for degrees that will result in actual jobs and decent income, or have found a trade that pays. I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is gravy. ?The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own?? ? Epictetus On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been mentioned > as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they interact > all over the place. > > But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because > it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do > quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and > chemistry. So I envy them. > > Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the > issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. > Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of > them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions > based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes > not only worthless but misleading. > > Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many > parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would > practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is > wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible > for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. > Not even close. > > Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what > they are experiencing. > > You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now who > are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no > retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role > models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. > > So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you put > them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some > interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, > sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your > head - bah humbug. > > No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team > of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully > scientific data as polling. > > I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of > real, firm knowledge. > > bill w > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating >> responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. >> >> For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly >> borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find >> that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now >> has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do >> NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: >> loans, credit cards, social gratification. >> >> They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his >> brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the >> first like you?re supposed to! >> >> It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to >> become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. >> >> And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that >> money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do >> their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. >> >> Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of >> course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not >> the same as far as poise goes. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it >> requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the >> natural order of things. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> >> What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s >> always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. >> >> Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s >> strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff >> their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, >> stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 21:20:47 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:20:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 4:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful > about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot > shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. > The youth are fine, but the world is not. It's only natural that we are discouraged. I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current > generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an > option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us > nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our > broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation > can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is > unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel > moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the > Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is > gravy. > Not giving up, nor complaining that life is unfair, nor imagining life owes us. As you say, Fortuna's wheel moves up and down. We happen to be a generation experiencing a downswing, like our grandparents. What gets complained about is people from easier and more plentiful times trying to convince us to apply the same heuristics that worked for them. Instability waxes and wanes. It is simple. Now is a time of greater instability. I think a lot of older people have some kind of internal guilt about their lives having been more stable with more hope for the future. "BuT tHe CuBaN mIsSiLe CrIsIs!!!" -- the Cuban Missile Crisis was scary because ICBMs at the time sucked, so those nukes in Cuba actually threatened America. Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today. Anyway I'm just saying. Youth today are disillusioned because it sucks to be a generation on the downswing of the wheel. Nobody is giving up. But we are certainly worried about existential threats to humanity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 21:51:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:51:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Dylan. I see that you are an Epicurean, probably not the only other one besides myself. I have noticed that econ is becoming a behavioral science (and has a Nobel Prize winner if you count Kahneman; we really need a Nobel category for psychology and all the behavioral sciences.) Good for them even if they are treading on our toes. Same for philosophy. Law scholars are doing some behavioral research as well, mostly with juries. What to do in a downturn - try to maintain a positive attitude. Dwelling on the negatives does nothing but make the wrong transmitters flow. That quote frp, Epictetus reminds me of the one that ends with 'and the wisdom to know the difference'. bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I really appreciate this reply, and it makes me respect at least a subset > of psychology more than I did. If it makes you feel any better, Bill, > economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology does, and it > truly is a dismal "science." > > But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful > about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot > shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. > > The Millenials (I can't speak as much to the Gen Zers) I have come in > contact with generally have their heads screwed on straight, have gone to > school for degrees that will result in actual jobs and decent income, or > have found a trade that pays. > > I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current > generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an > option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us > nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our > broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation > can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is > unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel > moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the > Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is > gravy. > > ?The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters > so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my > control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where > then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but > within myself to the choices that are my own?? ? Epictetus > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been >> mentioned as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they >> interact all over the place. >> >> But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because >> it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do >> quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and >> chemistry. So I envy them. >> >> Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the >> issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. >> Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of >> them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions >> based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes >> not only worthless but misleading. >> >> Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many >> parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would >> practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is >> wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible >> for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. >> Not even close. >> >> Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what >> they are experiencing. >> >> You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now >> who are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no >> retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role >> models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. >> >> So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you >> put them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some >> interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, >> sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your >> head - bah humbug. >> >> No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team >> of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully >> scientific data as polling. >> >> I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of >> real, firm knowledge. >> >> bill w >> >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating >>> responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. >>> >>> For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly >>> borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find >>> that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now >>> has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do >>> NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: >>> loans, credit cards, social gratification. >>> >>> They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his >>> brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the >>> first like you?re supposed to! >>> >>> It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to >>> become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. >>> >>> And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset >>> that money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil >>> pasta, do their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. >>> >>> Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of >>> course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not >>> the same as far as poise goes. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it >>> requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the >>> natural order of things. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> >>> What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s >>> always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. >>> >>> Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s >>> strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff >>> their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, >>> stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>> >>> http://author.to/DanUst >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 22:33:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:33:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] puzzle In-Reply-To: References: <6efa1948e51da2af5be6906eade207f4.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <61084542-334A-42A8-A80D-23AF19177AEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014501d66853$c3169660$4943c320$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] puzzle On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 9:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: Ah yes, the good old ?it?s being filled with both air and water!? >?Or the glass is already 50% volume with rocks or sand (small rocks) or mercury or any other displacement that prevents more than 50% water to fill the glass regardless of how much more water is available. >?We could probably get spike to figure out how much energy it would take to completely separate the water via electrolysis at exactly the output of the faucet? Mike Mike, you are too kind, sir. By the way you suggested separating the water (electrolysis) the energy requirement is indistinguishable from zero: you would separate water from sand or rocks by filtration, and water won?t mix with mercury. I was reading way too much into BillW?s puzzle and proposed a number of absurdities. However, having a coupla weeks away from the internet allowed me plenty of time to think up new ones. Like crises, one should never allow perfectly good absurdities to go to waste. The whole ?glass half full? part was really causing me to go off on a tangent. An actual glass at half its capacity is presented to the natural optimist and the natural pessimist, and you know what comments they will make, but if we take the pessimist and continued to fill to the top, perhaps she would then argue it is half full, since it was half empty before. Meanwhile, the natural optimist would view the glass under an enthusiastic faucet with its wildly churning and sloshing contents, and argue that it is full: as full as it is ever going to get. So no worries, turn off the water, gurgle that down, put the glass under there again with the faucet full throttle, gurgle the second one down, two half glasses, done. So it is all in the way you look at it I suppose, but we can perhaps come up with a kind of game or contest whereby we allow one to set the faucet at any flow rate, then shut it off suddenly, see who can get that glass closest to half its capacity. Then we could do all manner of fun derivatives with that notion such as related events where we shoot for 60% capacity or maximizing the contents with the glass tilted at pi radians, call it the Glass Half Full Olympics. Then the neighbors would make such comments as OK, that?s it, this quarantine crap hasta stop, spike is losing his damn mind. I would argue to the contrary, but it would be to no avail of course. It is the nature of psychoses: the more one claims to not have them, the more we convince others we do. Most annoying is this. Of all the things I missed while camping, it was the clever silliness found on this site, including the clever silliness I would have written had I not been camping away from it all. Things feel different out there. The wilderness isn?t experiencing a culture war. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 22:38:44 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:38:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That quote frp, Epictetus reminds me of the one that ends with 'and the > wisdom to know the difference'. bill w > Fitting coming from a "Bill W."! ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:01:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:01:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the > time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban > Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today.* In 1962 the USA had 6,300 Megatons worth of H-bombs, and the USSR had about 3000. The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about .01 megatons and it killed at least 100,000 people. Today all the world's nuclear weapons stockpiles combined equal to about 5000 Megatons, that dog shit still smells but only 5/9 as bad so things have improved, although I must admit that in 1962 neither Kennedy nor Khrushchev was as stupid or ignorant as Donald Trump. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:20:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:20:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: Over a certain amount, there is no difference, as it would be enough to ruin the world whether it was 1000 or 10000 bombs. What IS different is the delivery methods (like 'hypersonic' missiles,) which are being improved all the time, as well as delivery platforms (like submarines.) As well, the number of countries with nuclear weapons have increased since 1962. As well, there are now multiple states with nukes who are not party to the NPT. As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war warheads in the hands of god knows who. And yes, the leaders are crazier than ever before. I would say we are much worse off right now than we ever were in '62. On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:02 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the >> time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban >> Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today.* > > > In 1962 the USA had 6,300 Megatons worth of H-bombs, and the USSR had > about 3000. The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about .01 megatons and it > killed at least 100,000 people. Today all the world's nuclear weapons > stockpiles combined equal to about 5000 Megatons, that dog shit still > smells but only 5/9 as bad so things have improved, although I must admit > that in 1962 neither Kennedy nor Khrushchev was as stupid or ignorant as > Donald Trump. > > John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:23:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:23:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?I think this stuff about how it's OK to throw away your vote if you're in certain states is nuts for two reasons: >?1) We're talking about life and death here, and it's crazy to make such a momentous decision based on polls, especially when you consider how wrong the polls were in 2016? John K Clark If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja? To a minor party voter, victory is determined by whether their party?s vote spanned the gap between winner and loser. In 2016, the minor parties spanned that gap in a number of states. Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with your own beliefs. So? don?t throw away your vote: vote for your beliefs and don?t worry about the polls. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:30:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:30:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <7060dd62-551e-5175-dfa6-c1de919790d6@pobox.com> Message-ID: <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?In Australia I tend to vote Greens? Your Democrat/Republican parties would be closest related to our Labour/Liberal parties. 2 party systems suck? Anton Hi Anton, If I didn?t vote libertarian I would probably vote Green. Those two minor parties might span the gap between the majors this time, which would influence the majors to toss us a bone. If one lives in a swing state, that state presents an even greater opportunity to contribute to spanning the gap. In a year when both the USian major party?s POTUS candidates are very unpopular, we can expect good numbers from the minor parties. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:58:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:58:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ad01d6685f$9d44c540$d7ce4fc0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?I live in PA, so my vote definitely counts a lot. >?I actually agree with John not only that voting in safe states will likely matter in what happens, but also that voting for Biden specifically will be more important than just voting against Trump, because Biden will be helped by tallies the same way Trump is hurt by them. >?That being said, I still haven't convinced myself to vote for Biden instead of just not voting this year like I have been planning on. Idk Hey cool, I have an idea. Since Will has identified himself as perhaps the only swinger here, we can write up all our political lip flapping and post it offlist to him specifically rather than continuing the dreary and wearisome droning. Then when he tells us who he decided to vote for, we can celebrate or be disappointed, without having to worry about influencing the election. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:59:57 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote Message-ID: Will Steinberg wrote: snip > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war warheads in the hands of god knows who. What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? I should note that virtually all nuclear weapons require periodic maintenance by people who really know what they are doing. Incidentally, it is not good to hear about a generation of depressed people. At least on this list, it seems to be the older ones who are more optimistic. There are lots of problems, but there are also lots of solutions. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:07:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:07:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b601d66860$f97dab00$ec790100$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?Apathy, disgust with two party system, hopelessness. >?It may be harder to understand for older people. >?We younger people have very little hope for the future. While you guys were excited for the future as kids, young adults, and beyond, we have no hope. Geopolitical instability is increasing, there are pandemics, climate change, and increasingly polarized and violent populations in many countries?Will Will it is all in your (completely voluntary) perspective, me lad! Your future is so very bright I really don?t see why there is such negativity. For instance? Because of Covid quarantine, companies (good ones) have found ways to have more workers at home. They are even doing training that way (cool!) Then you have the option of living in a low cost area where you can supplement your office income or raise some of your food with a home garden, out where land is cheap and living is abundant! We geezers never had that option. Suggest turning off mainstream news sources and going with science and technology news sites. Life is way better there, certainly more optimistic. Cities appear to be eager to burn themselves down, but it is entirely possible that would eventually happen anyway. Young people don?t need to live there. You can have a rewarding career out where quality of life is great. Life is good and getting better. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 00:13:42 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 20:13:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:06 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Will Steinberg wrote: > > snip > > > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war > warheads in the hands of god knows who. > > What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? > I'll take the L on that one (contemporary parlance, 'take the loss', i.e. admit error)--it was nuclear material I was thinking of, not weapons. There are a few missing nukes but nowhere near hundreds, though apparently there was some stir about ~100 lost suitcase nukes around the early 2000s. Also, who knows which parties have Israeli nukes. Obviously countries would not want to spread these things around but, just given the way nuclear strategy works, it makes sense for a nuclear power to have secret nuclear sharing agreements. I would reckon there are American, Russian, &c. nuclear weapons stashed around the world held by players to be activated only in case those cards need to be played. And yes, malaise is certainly the vibe among the youth these days. SR's post summed things up very well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:23:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:23:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e401d66863$35d9de50$a18d9af0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: > No offense to your parents, but the world is far more poised today to be destroyed than it was back then. Will, you DESPERATELY need to read Steven Pinker's book "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" to get you out of this funk, you should get it today! The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined John K Clark Will another excellent one I listened to on vacation during the drive: Forty Autumns by Nina Willner. Oh this is such a terrific book, a nonfiction memoir, great stuff, the good guys win. https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Autumns-Familys-Courage-Survival/dp/0062410326 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28510777-forty-autumns I had heard of these kinds of stories from Ukranian friends. Sounds like something pretty similar took place there during the transition of the late 1980s. I have been thinking of collecting stories of people who were there. Some locals were. If you get the audio book and don?t have time to listen to the whole thing, listen to about the last hour or so. I want to see what I can find about that dramatic episode where the fearless leader?s orders were fumbled and a radio guy announced the country was free, even though that isn?t what Honecker and Krenz meant. A fun aside: Willner reveals that the East Germans were cheating in the Olympic games with the athletes taking hormones (supposedly from research done by the Nazis.) She has an inside source on that. I had already known of it, because one of my former colleagues was a swimmer at an international meet in 1977. She had taken a shower and was getting dressed when the athletes were startled by what sounded like men coming into their locker room. Turns out it was the East German women who mysteriously sounded a lot like men (the whole team.) The had discovered steroids and were using the hell out of em before the other countries caught on. Will, do get the audiobook and listen to it, at least that last part. All of it is good, that last part is dramatic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:47:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:47:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] fun idea. was: RE: Who has a vote that counts? Message-ID: <020601d66866$80fc0040$82f400c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat >?The WWs in the US did not suffer from those. The Depression was a somewhat mixed bag in that regard. SR Ballard Emmm, OK. SR, do let me offer an alternative view please. Young people today have *terrific* toys. The video games, the cool stuff you have these days, oh my, if only I could buy a few more decades of life, I would have such fun. Consider an idea I had while camping the last coupla wks. If you or anyone take the idea and make a buttload, all I ask is that you use your fortune to promote world peace, while noting that buying me a Maserati and a condo at Mammoth promotes world peace like nobody?s business. Perhaps you have seen those bicycle mounted trailers that proles use to haul their larvae: https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/bike-trailers/4125_1081404_5848968_4830099 OK cool, now imagine one of those rigs but instead of putting your cub in there, you put an electric motor and some lithium batteries. Then the car drivers give you some extra space and you look like a total jock, with the locals thinking you are hauling Junior, when really ?Junior? is hauling you, by a driven axle pushing you along. Or you could go the openly-lazy route and opt for a single-wheel cargo carrier, rig up a drive system, haul ass. With that, the proles would have the option to just be pushed along or to contribute with the pedals. Exercise, me lass! That would be a kick! You get to go outdoors, enjoy some sunshine, talk to your neighbors, make arrangements to copulate if you find a suitable candidate, generally do the kinds of things young people must do to get outta the under-30 funk. The control system on this is bonehead simple. This whole concept is simple enough I might be able to rig up something right here at home. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 04:42:22 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 23:42:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <926393FE-849B-450C-B675-582F4F0ACC0C@gmail.com> It?s my hope that the national mood for younger people improves. And I see signs that it might in the mid-range. I see right now, economically, as 2008/9. But that means that better things are on the way, even though people don?t see it yet. I think that many Baby Boomers will be ?meeting their life expectancy? soon, which will allow current middle management to move up and more houses to become available. I also think Covid will probably reduce housing prices if there isn?t a vaccine ASAP, due to economic woes. ?Defund the police? will probably lead to more ?social work? jobs, something many people are interested in. There is a case for optimism but I think most younger people aren?t viewing it that way. SR Ballard > On Aug 1, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:06 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war >> warheads in the hands of god knows who. >> >> What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? > > I'll take the L on that one (contemporary parlance, 'take the loss', i.e. admit error)--it was nuclear material I was thinking of, not weapons. There are a few missing nukes but nowhere near hundreds, though apparently there was some stir about ~100 lost suitcase nukes around the early 2000s. Also, who knows which parties have Israeli nukes. Obviously countries would not want to spread these things around but, just given the way nuclear strategy works, it makes sense for a nuclear power to have secret nuclear sharing agreements. I would reckon there are American, Russian, &c. nuclear weapons stashed around the world held by players to be activated only in case those cards need to be played. > > And yes, malaise is certainly the vibe among the youth these days. SR's post summed things up very well. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 09:09:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:09:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > meaning in life I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. -- Ben Zaiboc From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 09:26:18 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:26:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of choosing to log off. On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 11:10, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > > meaning in life > > I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing > I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. > > You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least > that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally > unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very > sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 09:37:11 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:37:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/08/2020 00:23, Spike wrote: > don?t throw away your vote: vote for your beliefs Just an observation here: If you believe that the whole system is corrupt, and voting (any way) is supporting the system, hence voting for corruption, then not voting can be a 'vote' for your beliefs. You can, of course, argue about how effective that would be, but 'throwing away your vote' can be seen as a positive statement. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 10:15:52 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 20:15:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of > choosing to log off. > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it were true. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 11:27:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:27:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for > their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja?* No, not if you deduce that Candidate #3 has virtually no chance of winning but you sorta like, and Candidate #2 has a good chance but would probably be stub your toe level bad, and Candidate #1 is already in power and so you know for a fact is Chicxulub Extinction Event level bad. And if you don't believe candidate #1 is really that bad then you haven't been paying attention to the situation. I repeat what I said in 2016, there is a ceiling on how much good even the very best president can do, but there is no bottom to bad, so It is far *FAR* more important to avoid electing a disastrous president than it is to elect a great one. A great president would be nice to have but we can live without one, but we can not live with a disastrous president for another 4 years and expect anything even close to the Bill of Rights to survive. *> Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not > throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with > your own beliefs.* Thanks to an idiotic clause in the US Constitution the only ones allowed to vote for the President of the United States are the 538 members of the Electoral College, and in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 election, in fact I predict the Libertarian Party will do considerably less well in this election than in the last because some people, but unfortunately not all, learn from their mistakes. You wasted your vote in 2016 and you're right on track for making the exact same blunder again in 2020. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 12:32:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:32:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Over a certain amount, there is no difference, as it would be enough to > ruin the world whether it was 1000 or 10000 bombs.* True. > *> What IS different is the delivery methods (like 'hypersonic' missiles,) > which are being improved all the time, as well as delivery platforms (like > submarines.)* No. It's true that offense is much better today than it was in 1962 but so is defense. Today there is virtually no chance for a Russian strategic bomber making it all the way to a city in the USA in a war, but that was certainly not true in 1962. And in fact the individual bombs in the nuclear Stockpiles have gotten smaller, a lot smaller. In 1961 500 B-41 H-bombs were manufactured and each had a yield of 25 megatons, that's 1667 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb. The B-41 bomb was taken out of service in 1976 because greatly increased accuracy of delivery systems made such a huge bomb unnecessary and the 10,690 pound weight of the B-41 could be better utilized by making 10 or 20 individually targeted smaller bombs. In 1963 the US developed an upgraded version of the B-41 that was 35 megatons (2,333 Hiroshimas) and only weighed 8,200 pounds, but they only made a few of those monsters. Today the largest bomb in the stockpile is just 1.2 megatons, only 80 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb, so if you're not close to a strategic target you might survive the war, or at least the first 30 minutes of it. *> I would say we are much worse off right now than we ever were in '62.* You might be right after all, I was pretty young at the time but in 1962 I don't recall anybody saying things are so hopeless we shouldn't even try to avoid a nuclear war. Will, I could be entirely wrong about this but somehow I have the feeling that your depression has more to do with chemistry than with current events. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 12:59:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:59:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that's not being able to let go of the past. Sad form of nostalgia. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of > choosing to log off. > > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 11:10, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >> > meaning in life >> >> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >> I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >> >> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least >> that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very >> sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 13:16:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:16:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/08/2020 13:33, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me > extremely sad What has that got to do with being an atheist? Are you claiming that it's religion, and not technology, that could resurrect the dead? -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:48:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Corruption is the least of our problems (was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 4) Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Just an observation here: If you believe that the whole system is > corrupt, and voting (any way) is supporting the system, hence voting for > corruption, then not voting can be a 'vote' for your beliefs. > I don't give a damn if the system is corrupt or not because it doesn't matter if you love it or hate it the system will continue to exists regardless, and you can't ignore it and expect it to leave you alone. That just won't work. And if your belief is that who becomes the president of the United States is not important then your belief is ridiculous. And if you believe the president of the United States does not control thousands of H-bombs then your belief is ridiculous. And if you believe Donald J Trump is fundamentally no different from Obama or Bush or Clinton or any of the previous 44 people who have become POTUS then your belief is ridiculous. Trump is certainly corrupt but that's the least of his vices, what makes him dangerous is his ignorance, stupidity, vindictiveness and instability. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:49:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:49:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as anything negative is patronizing. I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow some religion as anything negative is patronizing. It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:59:52 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:59:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >> choosing to log off. >> > > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it > were true. > Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:02:51 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:02:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But it will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable from religion (from our current perspective). On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:18, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 02/08/2020 13:33, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me > > extremely sad > > What has that got to do with being an atheist? Are you claiming that > it's religion, and not technology, that could resurrect the dead? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:03:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:03:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] crossroads Message-ID: "More than in any other time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness; the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly." Woody Allen bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:04:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:04:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: giulio wrote - Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. How can you call yourself a scientist? bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >>> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >>> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >>> choosing to log off. >>> >> >> You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it >> were true. >> > > Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to > believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them > supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or > we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. > >> >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:05:48 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:05:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:07:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, * Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe must imply that humans have a eternal life after death, but the non-existence of such a being means they have no chance of such a thing? Seems to me the existence of God and human immortality are two independent ideas that need not be connected, and I see no particular reason why they would be. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:27:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:27:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But it > will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable > from religion (from our current perspective).* To resurrect the dead you need an improvement in technology but unlike time machines or faster than light travel no breakthroughs in science would be needed to achieve it, you just need the technology to be able to place individual atoms and molecules where you want, in other words you need Nanotechnology. A good stage magician can do things that look really spectacular and magical until you learn the secret, and Nanotechnology can do spectacular things too, but we already know the secret. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:40:32 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:40:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point John. These two ideas need not necessarily be connected. But they usually are. How many atheists are open to the idea of afterlife/resurrection (natural or technological)? On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:31, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, * > > > Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an omnipotent > omniscient being who created the universe must imply that humans have a > eternal life after death, but the non-existence of such a being means > they have no chance of such a thing? Seems to me the existence of God and > human immortality are two independent ideas that need not be connected, and > I see no particular reason why they would be. > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:44:39 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:44:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John I am lost. Please explain how that could work. Note that I am NOT talking of cryonics and all that. How can slightly improved tech bring back my mom who was cremated 20 years ago? On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:36, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But >> it will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable >> from religion (from our current perspective).* > > > To resurrect the dead you need an improvement in technology but unlike > time machines or faster than light travel no breakthroughs in science > would be needed to achieve it, you just need the technology to be able to > place individual atoms and molecules where you want, in other words you > need Nanotechnology. A good stage magician can do things that look really spectacular > and magical until you learn the secret, and Nanotechnology can do > spectacular things too, but we already know the secret. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:47:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:47:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. giulio You don't realize that that is patronizing? Wake up! YOu are saying that atheists are missing something wonderful, hence are sad, and so you feel sorry for them. Maybe you should consult a dictionary to find out what 'patronizing' means. You clearly do not understand. What I am missing is believing in a lot of fanciful superstitions and living my life in a fantasy world where I believe anything that makes me happy. I would characterize that as something very negative, but that would be patronizing. To take something on faith means that you will believe it no matter whether it makes sense or whether there is any evidence for it. Oh , wait, you don't believe in evidence. You believe in fantasy. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 14:56:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:56:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:10:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:10:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > meaning in life I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and nightclubs kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports people. We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. Now I have no social contacts. We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer some social benefits which are hard to replace. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 15:17:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:17:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>> ?*and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark >> > > > > ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. > *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:23:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:23:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014101d668e0$d27c41d0$7774c570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio >?Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back?. Giulio I finally convinced my own family that cryonics is perfectly compatible with some forms of fundamentalist religion, specifically one which holds that death is analogous to a big sleep, after which we are re-assembled from atoms, not the same ones but the same kind. During the death phase one ?exists? only as an inert file in a supernatural memory of sorts. That notion is perfectly compatible with cryonics. What if? both are right: cryonics works, we get frozen, nanotech comes along, we get uploaded into something in such a form that can interact with meat-world humans. Then what if? the cryonaut was in that religion, zombie apocalypse comes along, deity resurrects believers in accordance with the deal, then the newly formed meat-guy could interact with his own software self. Like two brothers always messing with each other, imagine how they could harass each other, the gags they could pull. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:56:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:56:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> ?and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark > ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!! John K Clark My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? extinction level event.? ??just turn s? out to be a very bad presadent and not an? extinction level event?? We are not extinct as far as I can tell. Here?s where we were in 2016: >?He's already done it on Twitter but I want Trump to do it in the debate for all the world to see that this is the sort of man who's asking for your vote, this is the sort of man who wants to control the world's most powerful nuclear arsenal? John K Clark 18 Oct 2016 >?This is why I've insulted Trump so often lately, I want to get it out of my system now while I still can, if I do it after January 20 1917 I could end up in one of Trump's concentration camps with the millions of other people he wants to deport?? John K Clark? 22 Oct 2016 ?>?Forget the list, is ANYTHING ?going to continue after the election? I don't know, all I know is that there are 2 bullets in the 6-shooter aimed at our head and the trigger gets pulled on Tuesday. And some people still think a protest vote is a good idea!! John K Clark 4 November 2016 >? The thought of hundreds of macho FBI agents feverishly combing through Weiner's computer and finding nothing but dick pictures would be comical if it didn't lead to a 35% chance of Donald Trump becoming president and the end of the world as we know it?John K Clark 6 November 2016 >?Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... John K Clark 8 November 2016 ?>?If Hugh Everett's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct then that will certainly happen in some universe; we'll know in about 12 hours if we're lucky enough to be living in it.?..John K Clark? 8 November 2016 ?>?Yes, as all will discover when Trump and the Republican controlled congress change the libel laws so a sitting president can sue a newspaper or website out of existence if they say something about the commander in chief he doesn't like? 9 November 2016 >?but at this point angry words serve no purpose, all I can do now is hope I was wrong about him and he just turn s? out to be a very bad presadent and not an? extinction level event. S?o I will say no more about Trump? 9 November 2016 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 16:35:41 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: giulio: > If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. bill w: > How can you call yourself a scientist? Somehow this reminds me of a couple of conversations. Me: "I once had a book of science humor, about which the remarkable thing was--" Dad: "It wasn't funny?" Me: "On the contrary. It was stuff that scientists would find funny, rather than stories *about* scientists that a journalist found funny. Now maybe I have no right to say that, as I'm not a scientist." Dad (a scientist) made some inarticulate protest. Me: "Well, we can say I'm culturally a scientist." And: Me: "I don't call myself a mathematician because I've never proven an original theorem." Other: "That's how I know you're a real mathematician." -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 16:41:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:41:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* > > > *My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? > extinction level event.?* And I stand by that statement! The fact that a man as unstable and ignorant as Donald J Trump has control of thousands of H-Bombs has every day for the last 3 1/2 years increased the likelihood that another Chicxulub level Extinction event will occur. It hasn't happened yet but each day he remains in power increases the chance that it will. But the odds are on our side, even if Trump is reelected I would estimate there's a 75% chance such a disaster will NOT happen and you and everybody you know or have even heard of will NOT be vaporized in the next 4 years. But even if Humans survive there's virtually no chance the US Constitution or anything in the Bill Of Rights would survive, not even the most important part, or at least the most important part to most Trump fans, the second amendment. By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for Trump. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 16:45:57 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 18:45:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > giulio wrote - Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. > > How can you call yourself a scientist? bill w > I don?t. > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >>>> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >>>> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >>>> choosing to log off. >>>> >>> >>> You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it >>> were true. >>> >> >> Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to >> believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them >> supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or >> we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 17:13:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:13:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>>? SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!! >> My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? extinction level event.? >?And I stand by that statement! ? OK. Noted and archived. I disagree. >?By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for Trump. John K Clark That one is easy for two reasons: I wasn?t horrified because I am not a Trump follower. Jorgensen is my favorite of this bunch of yahoos. Secondly, it doesn?t matter if POTUS wants to delay an election, because POTUS doesn?t control that process, states do. Ours is the United States, not the United People of America. It?s a feature, not a bug. States run elections, they figure out who gets to go to the Electoral College, the Supreme Court decides who won at the EC in December, new POTUS sworn in by SCOTUS on 20 January, POTUS has no say in any of that. It?s a great system. I love the constitution. The anvil wears out the hammers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:16:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 7:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. > Screwing truth almost always means more unhappiness, eventually. The family that I was born with will eventually die, while (if cryonics-then-resurrection, be it uploading or biological, works) I will live on. I will likely some day make a new family to replace them - adopted siblings and/or children, or perhaps a wife and biological children, either way people I do not yet know today and who I will have to make new memories with. My earliest experiences will someday be mine alone, with no surviving people who have shared them. I have made peace with this. Already there are people I knew and shared many experiences with, who have met the end of their tales and did not choose to (potentially, someday) keep going. There are others with whom I shared many experiences (including some who I was quite good friends with at the time), who probably still live but moved away or otherwise are no longer in a position to interact with me, and whom I do not expect to interact with again - not even to hear when they die. (For example, basically everyone I went to university with. My classmates went our separate ways after graduation. The reunions I attended grouped different classes together to the point that I didn't run into any classmates, and none of the faculty present had been my teachers.) This is life. I do not cling to the past. Sure, I have done quite a lot to be proud of, but what matters to me is the future I shall help make. (In one of my social circles, there is a joke about how often I keep citing certain works I have made over the past few years. But I made those works to be useful in a variety of situations, which situations keep coming up - so I point to an appropriate work when they do. The works are essentially literary tools, endlessly reusable so long as the use case they were made for remains relevant.) If I am to inhabit a better tomorrow, I shall have to help build it. I have not yet lived even one percent of ten thousand years - and, arbitrary as that number is, I may live much longer than that, technology and circumstance willing. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 17:33:34 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <72dd08d3-c12c-2750-57f4-a227fdc89af1@pobox.com> On 2020-8-02 04:27, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian > party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by > events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 > election [...] I hope that the Biparty is properly grateful for your efforts to ensure that remains true now and forever. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:34:41 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:34:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:59:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:59:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How can you so confidently say that 4 more years of Trump means the constitution and bill of rights will be gone?! That's such a strong statement. What is your rationale for that? I think it would be bad, but saying "We will 100% chance have no constitution" is just about the strongest statement you could make. You were wrong about the same thing happening over the past four years. Unlike Spike, I don't necessarily consider the constitution as strong as an anvil in a vacuum. However, it is supported by and supports all political and social contracts in this country, much like a tree generates roots, but the tensile strengthen of the roots keeps the tree standing. It is not easy to get rid of the constitution. It is a worry that it will be amended in some bad way, but it is hardly a guarantee that it will be anulled. It is silly to say that. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 12:42 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* >> >> > > > *My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? >> extinction level event.?* > > > And I stand by that statement! The fact that a man as unstable and > ignorant as Donald J Trump has control of thousands of H-Bombs has every > day for the last 3 1/2 years increased the likelihood that another > Chicxulub level Extinction event will occur. It hasn't happened yet but > each day he remains in power increases the chance that it will. But the > odds are on our side, even if Trump is reelected I would estimate there's a > 75% chance such a disaster will NOT happen and you and everybody you know > or have even heard of will NOT be vaporized in the next 4 years. But even > if Humans survive there's virtually no chance the US Constitution or > anything in the Bill Of Rights would survive, not even the most important > part, or at least the most important part to most Trump fans, the second > amendment. > > By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his > comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you > one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't > imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for > Trump. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:14:56 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 20:14:56 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 19:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >>> anything negative is patronizing. >>> >>> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >>> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >>> >>> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >>> >> >> I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> > > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near > insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:18:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:18:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 1:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>?By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by >> his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother >> you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I >> can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses >> for Trump. John K Clark > > > > *I wasn?t horrified* > Well of course you weren't, I'm not one bit surprised. > *because I am not a Trump follower. * > I'm not a Trump supporter either, but I sure as hell was *HORRIFIED**!* > *POTUS doesn?t control that process* So POTUS can't violate the Constitution because the Constitution says POTUS can't violate the Constitution, and the Constitution is as unbreakable as the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And that's why no politician in the history of the world has ever violated the Constitution of the nation he is in, and no nation has ever drifted into totalitarianism. So stop being vigilant and the next time Trump does something outrageous (aka tomorrow), don't worry, be happy, and just smile. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:54:54 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:54:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> If you shouldn?t vote based on polls, then you wouldn?t know who has ?virtually no chance? of winning... SR Ballard > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:27 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja? > > No, not if you deduce that Candidate #3 has virtually no chance of winning but you sorta like, and Candidate #2 has a good chance but would probably be stub your toe level bad, and Candidate #1 is already in power and so you know for a fact is Chicxulub Extinction Event level bad. And if you don't believe candidate #1 is really that bad then you haven't been paying attention to the situation. I repeat what I said in 2016, there is a ceiling on how much good even the very best president can do, but there is no bottom to bad, so It is far FAR more important to avoid electing a disastrous president than it is to elect a great one. A great president would be nice to have but we can live without one, but we can not live with a disastrous president for another 4 years and expect anything even close to the Bill of Rights to survive. > >> > Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with your own beliefs. > > Thanks to an idiotic clause in the US Constitution the only ones allowed to vote for the President of the United States are the 538 members of the Electoral College, and in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 election, in fact I predict the Libertarian Party will do considerably less well in this election than in the last because some people, but unfortunately not all, learn from their mistakes. You wasted your vote in 2016 and you're right on track for making the exact same blunder again in 2020. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 2 19:00:34 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:00:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84095C4C-1180-4C1C-81CE-111EC5A0304B@alumni.virginia.edu> Not-sad atheist right here. I don?t think I?m the exception either. From here, I see plenty of theists that seem guilty, angry, aggressive, worried, anxious, scared, insecure. But I?d never generalize or stereotype as I also see happy as clams Ned Flanders? and Ned Flanders? wannabes and suicide bomber ?martyrs? gleeful in anticipation of the afterlife with virgins (if they only knew what that would really be like). I don?t mean to be pejorative to religious folks (although suicide bombers who take out bystanders can go fuck themselves?I?m big on consent). I will fight oppression, inquisitions, and holy wars. I love my peaceful muslim friends and my Mormon friends and transhumanists. Live and let live is one of my mantras. Apology accepted GP. Rather than not express that impression here, consider gathering more data to inform your opinion. I?d suggest that atheists are a diverse group. Just as are extropians and transhumanists. -Henry > On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 19:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>>> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as anything negative is patronizing. >>>> >>>> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >>>> >>>> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >>> >>> I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> >> Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > > Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. > >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 19:09:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:09:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. >?Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. Hi Giulio no worries, that sentiment is very common, no offense taken. Most of my family is religious, I am a flaming atheist. I don?t make noise about that, nor do I hide it if asked. They don?t understand how I could possibly have any happiness within, even though I clearly appear to. They don?t understand why I have any moral or ethical constraints, even if I explain that morals and ethics are not the property of any particular religion or deity. They don?t accept it. They don?t understand how I can have any hope for the future, even though I clearly do. I explain that my hope isn?t for eternity, but rather a deep and meaningful hope for right now, and a deep and meaningful hope for the easily foreseeable, both of which I have more of than I can easily justify. But hey, I am that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:21:50 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> I don?t think that linking a decline in religiousity to a decline in meaning of life is a negative statement about people who are not religious. Religion provides an emotional answer to the questions ? ?why am I here?? ?how am I special?? ?what am I supposed to do with my life?? ? Without religion, the answers to these questions are non-emotional, but rather factual. A while back (months?) on the list I saw a few emails about how ?we create our own meaning of life? and that?s exactly my point. If group A has it spoon fed to them they have 100% meaning of life. If group B has to figure it out, then the population can approach but never achieve 100%. Similarly if group A attends or can attend regular religious meetings, 100% of them have a vast social network. If group B has to make any form of effort to create a social network, then the population can approach but never achieve 100% access to that size of social network. This doesn?t imply anything negative about religious feelings, or lack thereof. Any religious person or person who is not religious can have a meaning of life, a vast social network, and achieve what they will. But what I am saying is that social connections and goals make people happy, and one group has prefab connections and goals, and the other had to make conscious effort to achieve the same. If effort is required, automatically less people will do something, because of opportunity cost. SR Ballard From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:32:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:32:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:57 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If you shouldn?t vote based on polls, then you wouldn?t know who has > ?virtually no chance? of winning...* Polls are not the only source of information, or the most important one. If the election is in early November and it's August and there is virtually no mention of the Libertarian Party candidates for POTUS (are there any yet??) in newspapers or new sites or on social media or on TV or in conversation with people you meet, but there is plenty of mention of Trump and Biden, then you can safely conclude that pigs will fly before Mr. Nobody from the Libertarian Party becomes POTUS. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:35:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:35:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> References: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, fewer people. Why? Lazy, credulous, non-critical thinkers. Lack of alternatives. We need a church. Another thing: when did you encounter atheists? If you weren't raised by them, you likely did not encounter any before, say, high school, or even college. Then you have to overturn a lifetime of belief. And mostly people, me for one, did it by themselves. This is hardly a good way to expand our 'membership'. And we have no p.r. When did you ever see some goodwill kind of thing attributed to atheists? We apparently have no motivations for do-gooding and turning people. . Maybe it's because we want to be left alone and so we do that to religious people. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don?t think that linking a decline in religiousity to a decline in > meaning of life is a negative statement about people who are not religious. > > Religion provides an emotional answer to the questions ? ?why am I here?? > ?how am I special?? ?what am I supposed to do with my life?? ? Without > religion, the answers to these questions are non-emotional, but rather > factual. > > A while back (months?) on the list I saw a few emails about how ?we create > our own meaning of life? and that?s exactly my point. > > If group A has it spoon fed to them they have 100% meaning of life. If > group B has to figure it out, then the population can approach but never > achieve 100%. > > Similarly if group A attends or can attend regular religious meetings, > 100% of them have a vast social network. If group B has to make any form of > effort to create a social network, then the population can approach but > never achieve 100% access to that size of social network. > > This doesn?t imply anything negative about religious feelings, or lack > thereof. Any religious person or person who is not religious can have a > meaning of life, a vast social network, and achieve what they will. > > But what I am saying is that social connections and goals make people > happy, and one group has prefab connections and goals, and the other had to > make conscious effort to achieve the same. > > If effort is required, automatically less people will do something, > because of opportunity cost. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:40:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:40:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Maybe we could find a document (such as the Humanist Manifesto) or create one that includes all of our beliefs. Then we could point people to that rather than exhaustively telling people what we believe. Are any of you now or in the past members of the Unitarian Church? Maybe that could be our meeting place, our social support group. Ballard is right: we don't have any organizations (not that I love those) that do good for the human race, provide social support and all that she said. Religious people often proselytize. We don't. Maybe we should approach people and give them our 'testimony'. Sounds absurd,doesn't it? But in a way we are in a battle with them. People are dropping out of churches, though not necessarily without losing their faith. And not necessarily becoming skeptics and all that. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > > > > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near > insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > > > > >?Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t > express this feeling here again. > > > > Hi Giulio no worries, that sentiment is very common, no offense taken. > > > > Most of my family is religious, I am a flaming atheist. I don?t make > noise about that, nor do I hide it if asked. They don?t understand how I > could possibly have any happiness within, even though I clearly appear to. > They don?t understand why I have any moral or ethical constraints, even if > I explain that morals and ethics are not the property of any particular > religion or deity. They don?t accept it. They don?t understand how I can > have any hope for the future, even though I clearly do. I explain that my > hope isn?t for eternity, but rather a deep and meaningful hope for right > now, and a deep and meaningful hope for the easily foreseeable, both of > which I have more of than I can easily justify. But hey, I am that way. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:01:24 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:01:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Atheism isn't a group; it's the default. Goddist glom together because they want to be with each other in fellowship. I have no inherent fellowship with those left from {universal set} minus the {set of goddists} Even among the goddists, they subdivide into flavors and brands... even within a particular church, not every generation is consistently believing according to their model numbers. Or have I mischaracterized atheism's definition of "us" as "not-them"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:31:20 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:31:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > Do you think it?s patronising to say, for example, that people who think the Earth is flat are wrong? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:38:30 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:38:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Some uplifting news: SpaceX home safe... Message-ID: https://apnews.com/bf77af89c527340793d15a9957d30c84 CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) ? Two NASA astronauts returned to Earth on Sunday in a dramatic, retro-style splashdown, their capsule parachuting into the Gulf of Mexico to close out an unprecedented test flight by Elon Musk?s SpaceX company. It was the first splashdown by U.S. astronauts in 45 years, with the first commercially built and operated spacecraft to carry people to and from orbit. The return clears the way for another SpaceX crew launch as early as next month and possible tourist flights next year. Test pilots Doug Hurley and Bob Behnken rode the SpaceX Dragon capsule back to Earth less than a day after departing the International Space Station and two months after blasting off from Florida. The capsule parachuted into the calm gulf waters about 40 miles off the coast of Pensacola, hundreds of miles from Tropical Storm Isaias pounding Florida?s Atlantic coast. ?Welcome back to planet Earth and thanks for flying SpaceX,? said Mission Control from SpaceX headquarters. ?It was truly our honor and privilege,? replied Hurley. More than an hour after splashdown, the astronauts emerged from their capsule on the deck of a recovery ship, both signaling a thumbs-up as they headed for medical exams. Their ride home in the capsule dubbed Endeavour was fast, bumpy and hot, at least on the outside. The spacecraft went from a screaming orbital speed of 17,500 mph (28,000 kph) to 350 mph (560 kph) during atmospheric reentry, and finally to 15 mph (24 kph) at splashdown. Peak heating during descent was 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit (1,900 degrees Celsius). The anticipated top G forces felt by the crew: four to five times the force of Earth?s gravity. Within a half-hour of splashdown, the scorched and blistered 15-foot capsule was on board a SpaceX recovery ship with a staff of more than 40, including doctors and nurses. To keep the returning astronauts safe in the pandemic, the recovery crew quarantined for two weeks and were tested for the coronavirus. The opening of the hatch was held up briefly by extra checks for toxic rocket fumes outside the capsule. After medical exams, the astronauts were expected to fly home to Houston for a reunion with their wives and sons. Hurley offered final thanks just before he exited the capsule. ?Anybody who?s touched Endeavour, you should take a moment to just cherish the day, especially given all the things that have happened this year.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 21:01:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:01:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <749630ac-dc74-27e3-f801-587bdbe37e01@pobox.com> On 2020-8-02 03:15, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy > if it were true. Well you *can*, but it brings into question the meaning of "believe". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 21:07:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:07:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 12:41 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists/religion >?Maybe we could find a document (such as the Humanist Manifesto) or create one that includes all of our beliefs? bill w There is a transhumanist manifesto of sorts, the Extropian Principals, which is how a lot of us got here to start with. When I read this document in about Autumn 1993, it was ELECTRIFYING! Like a bolt from the clear sky. I remember thinking, this cat is saying what I have been thinking for a long time: http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? You were the guy who had that nice suit as I recall. There were four in your group as I vaguely recall, and you guys all had that style thing going big time. I got to thinking: OK, if this is an example of Italian people, no wonder they build such cool-looking cars. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 21:16:07 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:16:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> References: <7060dd62-551e-5175-dfa6-c1de919790d6@pobox.com> <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <09d586fe-5d16-2232-b72e-2eb554ceb934@pobox.com> On 2020-8-01 16:30, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > *On Behalf Of *Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? > > >?In Australia I tend to vote Greens? > > Your Democrat/Republican parties would be closest related to our > Labour/Liberal parties. > > 2 party systems suck?? Anton Is there another Anton here?? > Hi Anton, > > If I didn?t vote libertarian I would probably vote Green.? [....] -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 21:49:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 22:49:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> On 02/08/2020 15:57, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Good point John. These two ideas need not necessarily be connected. > But they usually are. How many atheists are open to the idea of > afterlife/resurrection (natural or technological)? > > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:31, John Clark via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > /> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people > who find meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make > me extremely sad, / > > > Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an > omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe must imply > that humans have a eternal life after death, but the non-existence > of such a being means they have no chance of such a thing? Seems > to me the existence of God and human immortality are two > independent ideas that need not be connected, and I see no > particular reason why they would be. > > John K Clark > Again, how is this relevant? You might as well ask how many atheists are open to putting peanut butter in a cheese sandwich, or how many atheists are open to the idea of snowboarding in the nude. I don't know what 'natural afterlife/resurrection' means. The whole point of pursuing a technological solution is that we know it doesn't just happen by itself. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 21:56:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 22:56:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3be77438-fdfd-28fd-dd71-6c96d813b454@zaiboc.net> On 02/08/2020 18:59, Spike wrote: > Now I have no social contacts. Sure you do. You have social contacts in the world of education, scouting, biking (bikers are never alone, they're always waving at each other!), and, you know, certain online social groups. I think people are less socially isolated now than ever before. And what has enabled that? Not religion, for sure. Rather, its opposite: Technology! -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:00:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 17:00:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's one thing to say they are wrong, and another to feel sad for them. The latter is patronizing. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > Do you think it?s patronising to say, for example, that people who think > the Earth is flat are wrong? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:09:33 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:09:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. It still leaves room for the meta question of why humans have religions at all? Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past. Since it is common in Africa, the selection must have been before humans left Africa, something like 60k years ago. I suspect the selection for religions was the same as the selection for the traits behind wars. At the root, religions are xenophobic meme. The trait for religions is less common than the capture-bonding trait, so the selection may have been less intense. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:28:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 17:28:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the root, religions are xenophobic meme. keith Oh, we are born xenophobic, all right. But the other side of that coin is intragroup cohesion and loyalty. On a day to day basis that might be more important. One climbs up the ladder: first parents, then tribe, the tribe leader. then spiritual leader (sometimes a paranoid schizophrenic having delusions and hallucinations, which are still regarded in parts of Africa as evidence of contact with the spirit world), then the god or gods the shaman contacts. A natural progression towards having a local, tribal god - and Jehova was certainly the Jew's god and the god of no one else until being adopted by Christians, most of whom were Jews at the beginning. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > > anything negative is patronizing. > > > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > > It still leaves room for the meta question of why humans have religions at > all? > > Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in > terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our > past. Since it is common in Africa, the selection must have been > before humans left Africa, something like 60k years ago. > > I suspect the selection for religions was the same as the selection > for the traits behind wars. At the root, religions are xenophobic > meme. > > The trait for religions is less common than the capture-bonding trait, > so the selection may have been less intense. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:06:39 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 23:06:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Test Message-ID: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> Test Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:14:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:14:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Jokers was atheists/religion Message-ID: Though I was raised in a religion, it didn't stick with me past the first semester of college. I have lost some of the details, but this was at a time when my grandparents (Mother's parents) were living on a farm near Sparta, TN. Before the era of heavy mechanization, farms had to have extra labor, in some cases relatives, in others hired help or both. The labor was usually live in and ate with the family. One of these hired hands endlessly talked about how he was waiting for the word from God to go preach. It got annoying around the dinner table. My mom's family included a lot of jokers One day this hired hand and one of my mom's uncles were out hoeing a field. This uncle (a rather tall one) noted that the prospective preacher was hoeing from one side of the field toward a line of china berry (also known as mulberry) trees on the end of the field. These trees have very thick foliage. When he reached the end of the row he was working on, he reached up into the tree and pulled himself up till he was well concealed. The victim of the prank came hoeing down the field till he was under the tree. Cupping his hands and using a deep voice the uncle said "Go Preach!" The man looked around wildly and the voice repeated "Go-o-o-o Preach!" According to the story, the man threw down his hoe and ran off--never to be seen again. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 23:27:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:27:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] eximod Message-ID: <00fc01d66924$88eeaa50$9acbfef0$@rainier66.com> Greetings fellow ExI-ers, For three good reasons and one really bad one (listed at the end of this post for the curious reader) I have chosen to stand down forthwith as ExI moderator. I have selected a new one (which is how I got that job 21 yrs ago) and wish to try a fun little experiment: the new moderator's identity will remain in the shadows. His or her @ is ExiMod at protonmail.com I have known him or her for a long time and know this person to be fair, smart, kindhearted, charitable. Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous. etc. But not reverent. This person gets thru number 11 on the old scout law and stumbles at the finish line. In any case, if you have a moderator request, post it to ExiMod at protonmail.com but not me for I have relinquished this burdensome omnimpotence of Exi moderation without taking any actions on my way out. Carry on, my friends. I will still be here, still posting silliness and some fun ideas. But I won't be doing Exi moderation, nor have I the password to ExiMod at protonmail. Sincerely, your former moderator and now ordinary prole, spike Good reasons: I have three new jobs I am taking on.: I have been chosen as STEM counselor for scouts, a job I intend to take seriously. I have agreed to be the coach of the high school competitive math team, a task which has already started via Zoom, and I have agreed to be a tutor for advanced math students at the HS. Really bad reason: the biopsy results brought horrifying news for someone I care about. I need to be available to get down there on short notice if called upon to help him and his family. Might be out intermittently. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:37:17 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> References: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Received. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 4:08 PM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Test > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 06:34:02 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:34:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 23:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio > Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at > Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? You were the guy who had that > nice suit as I recall. There were four in your group as I vaguely recall, > and you guys all had that style thing going big time. I got to thinking: > OK, if this is an example of Italian people, no wonder they build such > cool-looking cars. > it wasn?t me, I have never been at an Extro conference. I think we met once, but perhaps at a Singularity Summit? > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 07:56:33 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:56:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> References: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:50 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > I don't know what 'natural afterlife/resurrection' means. The whole point of pursuing a technological solution is that we know it doesn't just happen by itself. > But we don't. > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 10:44:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in terms > of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be very convincing; the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the near universal appeal of music, the most abstract of all the arts. It could be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that do confirm an advantage. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 10:49:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:49:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 12:46, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in >> terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* >> > > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be > very convincing; the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the > near universal appeal of music, the most abstract of all the arts. It could > be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any > sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that > do confirm an advantage. > Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps performing fearlessly in battle. > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:16:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:16:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > That's patronizing. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:35:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:35:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:53 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps > performing fearlessly in battle.* Fear confers an obvious evolutionary advantage, individuals who are absolutely fearless would not live very long. Too much courage would be bad as would too little, so the amount of courage in a population would probably follow a normal distribution curve aroud an optomal point. I can see an evolutionary advantage in admiring and thus hanging around someone who is more courageous then I am so he could be the first one to sneak up on a woolly mammoth and try to stick a wooden spear with a flint tip Into the enormous beast. The anamal is far too big for him to eat all by himself, so if his attack is successful I'll be able to pick up lots of scraps. And if the attack is unsuccessful, as such a dangerous activaty very well might be, well ... better him than me; It's time to look around for somebody else who is braver than I am. Such a strategy could result in more of my genes getting into the next generation that any of the genes from any of the superheros. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:48:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:48:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they >> are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >> > > >That's patronizing. > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 13:17:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:17:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d66998$797c67f0$6c7537d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists/religion On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 23:10, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? ? >?it wasn?t me, I have never been at an Extro conference. I think we met once, but perhaps at a Singularity Summit? OK cool thanks, perhaps so. I went to the Singularity Summits if they were local. We had one at UC San Francisco, one at Berkeley, the best one of all was at Stanford. This Extrocon I was thinking of was where these four Italian guys were cutting up and saying fun interesting things. Everybody liked them. Never been there, but Italy must have a lotta money. The cars made there are really expensive. I heard they have a church, called the Sixteen Chapel or something like that, several thousand bucks worth of paintings on the ceiling alone! Bet we could rig up quad-rotor drones with web cameras that could be controlled from the ground, charge the proles to fly up and get a closer look, let them battle it out in there, that sorta thing. We could make some real money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:20:02 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:20:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision Message-ID: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads that have nothing to do with politics. There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one warning to stop that behavior. Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to provide time for tempers to cool down. Further action should not be required. Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! ExiMod Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 13:49:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of ExiMod via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. ? >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >?ExiMod Thanks ExiMod! I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it sane. Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who went away see if you can get them to stop by please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:01:27 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:01:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anders too On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 09:50 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. ? > > > > >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > >?ExiMod > > > > > > Thanks ExiMod! > > > > I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, > see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing > else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it > sane. > > > > Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find > him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she > always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha > Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear > another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath > as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the > planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who > went away see if you can get them to stop by please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:03:50 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:03:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anders and Robin. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. ? > > > > >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > >?ExiMod > > > > > > Thanks ExiMod! > > > > I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, > see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing > else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it > sane. > > > > Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find > him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she > always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha > Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear > another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath > as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the > planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who > went away see if you can get them to stop by please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:10:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Ben > Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) > > On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > > meaning in life > > I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing > I'd > expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. > > You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that > is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally > unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad > people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once > provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and > nightclubs > kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for > those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports > people. > > > We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being > interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. > There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. > Now I have no social contacts. > > We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer > some social benefits which are hard to replace. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 14:20:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:20:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> I live in Santa Clara County CA, but within walking distance of the next county so (after all this time) it finally occurred to me I should be tracking covid fatalities there as well. I found the graphs on their site. Then. I found these comments in their disclaimers: . The County only provides this data as a resource, but does not, and cannot, confirm or guarantee the accuracy of the data. . Cumulative deaths are for both positive cases and suspected cases. . Some of these deaths may include residents who had COVID-19, but died of something else. Given these complexities, fatality totals may not exactly match other data sources or, in some instances, the death may be double counted in more than one data source such as county-level fatality totals.. . All data are provided to offer a snapshot of COVID-19 and does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility. https://ac-hcsa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/610c4a6e02414a a6b68e3bf3f331be2f Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment (as my friend's business dies of starvation.)))) Suggestions or comments welcome please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 14:25:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:25:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010e01d669a1$e8c53de0$ba4fb9a0$@rainier66.com> Anders and Robin. Thanks Dave. Robin unsubscribed a coupla days ago, not because of any objection to content, but rather because we couldn?t get his server to cooperate with the ExI server. It kept bouncing his @gmu.edu and we never did figure out why. He mentioned he will be back later, but now he is getting ready for his classes and probably couldn?t post much anyway. Anders I already contacted. He is doing well. Good chance he will drop in soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:04:27 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:04:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 16:09, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Anders and Robin. > It would be good to have some oldtimers back! > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision >> >> >> >> >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >> >> >> >> >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >> futile and upsets many list members. ? >> >> >> >> >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >> >> >> >> >?ExiMod >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks ExiMod! >> >> >> >> I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, >> see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing >> else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it >> sane. >> >> >> >> Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find >> him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she >> always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha >> Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear >> another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath >> as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the >> planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who >> went away see if you can get them to stop by please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ > > >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:14:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:14:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything about Trump) - bottom line. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > Further action should not be required. > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > ExiMod > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:32:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:32:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, if anything. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of >> Ben >> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >> >> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >> > meaning in life >> >> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >> I'd >> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >> >> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that >> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad >> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and >> nightclubs >> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for >> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports >> people. >> >> >> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too >> boring. >> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and >> boring. >> Now I have no social contacts. >> >> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer >> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 15:44:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:44:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were told it was about 3%. Stan county also had its disclaimer: NUMBER_DIED Numeric Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local health departments based on the cause of death reported on death certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths are also counted in "Positive Cases". Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those who died OF covid. The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and to a large extent what businesses can stay open. Here's where we are: EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020: _____ California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of indoor operations for the following sectors: * Restaurants * Wineries and Tasting Rooms * Family Entertainment Centers * Movie Theaters * Zoos and Museums * Cardrooms * Fitness Centers * Worship Services * Offices for Non-Critical Sectors * Hair Salons and Barbershops * Malls All is not lost: These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by pick-up. Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat house. Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and maybes. Businesses are perishing. Oh mercy. Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the parking lot gawking) please look up your county's or nation's covid website and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:52:26 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:52:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> They don?t know either. As a Church they used to have a well defined set of beliefs: Unitarian: God is one, not made of 3 persons. That is, they did not believe in the trinity. Universalist: That ultimately, all people will be ?saved?. Now the church is an odd vestage without and real beliefs beyond ?free and responsible search for truth and meaning? For an overview of the ?six sources and seven principles?: We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote: The inherent worth and dignity of every person; Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations; Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. The living tradition which we share draws from many sources: Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life; Words and deeds of prophetic people which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love; Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life; Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves; Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit; Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature. Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >> Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. > > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, if anything. bill w >> >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben >>> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >>> >>> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >>> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >>> > meaning in life >>> >>> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd >>> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >>> >>> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that >>> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >>> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad >>> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zaiboc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >>> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and nightclubs >>> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for >>> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports people. >>> >>> >>> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >>> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. >>> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. >>> Now I have no social contacts. >>> >>> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer >>> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:56:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:56:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> Spike, I think it is juvenile to expect they would NOT offer such a disclaimer. Literally everything in your state has a little label stating it will give you cancer. Why do you not throw away all these things? It?s exactly the same thing. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:44 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan Kenobi, you?re my only hope. > > I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were told it was about 3%. > > Stan county also had its disclaimer: > > > > NUMBER_DIED > Numeric > Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local health departments based on the cause of death reported on death certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths are also counted in ?Positive Cases?. > > > Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those who died OF covid. > > The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and to a large extent what businesses can stay open. > > Here?s where we are: > > EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020: > > California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of indoor operations for the following sectors: > Restaurants > Wineries and Tasting Rooms > Family Entertainment Centers > Movie Theaters > Zoos and Museums > Cardrooms > Fitness Centers > Worship Services > Offices for Non-Critical Sectors > Hair Salons and Barbershops > Malls > All is not lost: > > These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by pick-up. > > Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat house. > > Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and maybes. Businesses are perishing. > > Oh mercy. > > Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the parking lot gawking) please look up your county?s or nation?s covid website and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:57:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:57:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks SR! bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They don?t know either. > > As a Church they used to have a well defined set of beliefs: > > Unitarian: God is one, not made of 3 persons. That is, they did not > believe in the trinity. > > Universalist: That ultimately, all people will be ?saved?. > > Now the church is an odd vestage without and real beliefs beyond ?free > and responsible search for truth and meaning > ? > > For an overview of the ?six sources and seven principles?: > > *We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, > covenant to affirm and promote:* > > - The inherent worth and dignity of every person; > - Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations; > - Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in > our congregations; > - A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; > - The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within > our congregations and in society at large; > - The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; > - Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are > a part. > > *The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:* > > - Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed > in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness > to the forces which create and uphold life; > - Words and deeds of prophetic people which challenge us to confront > powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the > transforming power of love; > - Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical > and spiritual life; > - Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's > love by loving our neighbors as ourselves; > - Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason > and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and > spirit; > - Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the > sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms > of nature. > > Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our > faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. > As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another > our mutual trust and support. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. >> > > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, > if anything. bill w > >> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf >>> Of Ben >>> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >>> >>> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >>> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >>> > meaning in life >>> >>> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >>> I'd >>> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >>> >>> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least >>> that >>> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >>> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very >>> sad >>> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zaiboc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >>> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and >>> nightclubs >>> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well >>> for >>> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports >>> people. >>> >>> >>> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >>> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too >>> boring. >>> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and >>> boring. >>> Now I have no social contacts. >>> >>> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does >>> offer >>> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:04:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:04:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t normally care for. Context makes it patronizing or not. If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be consoled. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >> I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> >> >That's patronizing. > > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:07:10 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:07:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking John out. On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for > excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support > kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, > I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). > > I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are made, > even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything about > Trump) - bottom line. > > bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >> >> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >> that have nothing to do with politics. >> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >> >> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >> >> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >> warning to stop that behavior. >> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >> provide time for tempers to cool down. >> Further action should not be required. >> >> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >> >> ExiMod >> >> >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:08:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:08:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: next county >.Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. ... >.Stan county also had its disclaimer: NUMBER_DIED Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. >.Oy vey. mercy. Spike I am officially freaking out. I went to two different California state covid dashboards, one run by the University of California and the other by LA Times. Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. Neither state level site included a disclaimer on how covid deaths are counted. Now I am going in search of any California state covid dashboard which has somewhere on that site a comment or disclaimer. It concerns me that uncertainty in data is being lost as it travels up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:07:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:07:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot > confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits > they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 > but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two > county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! > Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by > county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are > assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the > hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment > (as my friend?s business dies of starvation.))))* *Suggestions or comments welcome please.* No I don't think my comments would be welcome because under this new regime some are allowed to make political comments and summer not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:22:09 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:22:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with Giulio. In any case, I wouldn't support banning anyone right after we instituted a new rule--we can just wait and see what happens. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:19 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. > > On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >> >> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >> about Trump) - bottom line. >> >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>> >>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>> >>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>> >>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>> warning to stop that behavior. >>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>> Further action should not be required. >>> >>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> >>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:23:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has something like a bill of rights. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone > tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In > the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t > normally care for. > > Context makes it patronizing or not. > > If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very > happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time > if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I > going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be > consoled. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>> >> >> >That's patronizing. >> > > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I > feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a > statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express > compassion it's said to express contempt. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:23:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:23:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:20 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. * > Thank you Giulio. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:24:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:24:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan > Kenobi, you?re my only hope. > > > > I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the > same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then > look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a > percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were > told it was about 3%. > > > > Stan county also had its disclaimer: > > > > > > > > NUMBER_DIED > > Numeric > > Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health > department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local > health departments based on the cause of death reported on death > certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of > death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths > are also counted in ?Positive Cases?. > > > > > > Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the > closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those > who died OF covid. > > > > The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on > up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and > to a large extent what businesses can stay open. > > > > Here?s where we are: > > > > *EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020:* > ------------------------------ > > California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of *indoor* operations > for the following sectors: > > - Restaurants > - Wineries and Tasting Rooms > - Family Entertainment Centers > - Movie Theaters > - Zoos and Museums > - Cardrooms > - Fitness Centers > - Worship Services > - Offices for Non-Critical Sectors > - Hair Salons and Barbershops > - Malls > > All is not lost: > > > > These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by > pick-up. > > > > Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat > house. > > > > Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and > maybes. Businesses are perishing. > > > > Oh mercy. > > > > Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the > parking lot gawking) please look up your county?s or nation?s covid website > and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:25:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: But what if he won't stop? That is his history. John is fine with me even if he did call me a liar. He just has to stop the Trump bashing. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. > > On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >> >> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >> about Trump) - bottom line. >> >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>> >>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>> >>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>> >>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>> warning to stop that behavior. >>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>> Further action should not be required. >>> >>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> >>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:52:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:52:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01eb01d669b6$825940a0$870bc1e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, I think it is juvenile to expect they would NOT offer such a disclaimer. Literally everything in your state has a little label stating it will give you cancer. Why do you not throw away all these things? It?s exactly the same thing. SR Ballard SR thanks for pointing that out. I opposed Prop 65 back in the 80s because it was a major victory for the tobacco industry. By that time we knew damn well that tobacco causes cancer. The original version of the legislation was really aimed at identifying stores which sold cigs, to discourage customers from patronizing that store (that word chosen intentionally because of its double meaning (one good the other bad ( {8^D ))) The tobacco industry sued to make the legislation include what it actually says: the building contains chemicals which might be harmful from the standpoint of cancer, reproductive harm, developmental defects for instance. OK then. That gets alcohol (hey, fetal alcohol syndrome) that gets coffee (not sure why exactly but it does) it gets: * Additives or ingredients in pesticides * Common household products * Drugs, food, or dyes * Solvents * Chemicals in manufacturing or construction * Byproducts of chemical processes. OK, well if that warning sign is on every building, including the local daycare (it is) then what does it mean? That?s right, not a thing, not one damn thing. If everything causes cancer, then nothing does. That Prop 65 sign is on every public building in California. Find me one please which does not have it, and I will show you one where some yahoo stole theirs. Solvents they say. Water is a solvent (a very good one (sheesh.))) If everything causes cancer, then nothing does. If everything is cultural appropriation, then nothing is. If all cops are bastards, then none of them are. If everyone is a criminal, then no one is. Its kills an argument to overgeneralize it. Counties very clearly tell us they are counting covid deaths broadly, then handing the numbers up to the state, where the site does not tell us these counts are interpreted broadly. Then the governors are making life or death decisions based on data of unknown quality. Please advise. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:58:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:58:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020401d669b7$5f217c50$1d6474f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment (as my friend?s business dies of starvation.)))) Suggestions or comments welcome please. >?No I don't think my comments would be welcome because under this new regime some are allowed to make political comments and summer not. John K Clark John please study that paragraph you quoted and show anything political please? I can?t find it. It is about data, county health departments offering data caveats then these somehow evaporating on the way up to the state, where big decisions are being made, which determine if businesses live or die. I see nothing political at all there. Are you claiming this data cannot be handled without political considerations? I think it can: the state level sites must include the data caveats freely offered by their own sources, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 17:07:28 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:07:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now I am going in search of any California state covid dashboard which has > somewhere on that site a comment or disclaimer. > > > > It concerns me that uncertainty in data is being lost as it travels up. > So long as you're searching anyway, could you see if it's the same in other states? (At least, those which wouldn't pretend to be certain when they're not.) My hunch is, it's a basic problem with measurement - at least as done in the US - in which case this is the best data they have, less-than-perfect though it is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 3 17:20:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:20:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e156c8d-ce30-a87f-35fb-01af5452d3d9@zaiboc.net> On 03/08/2020 12:17, John K Clark mentioned: > .. the near universal appeal of music ... This is a question that has puzzled me sorely for a long, long time. Why are we the only animals that seem to have a sense of rhythm? Many animals make noises of various kinds, sometimes even rhythmic sounds, but you never see a group of animals getting into a groove the way humans do. I've never seen a dog tapping its paw or nodding along to a piece of music, and even birds that seem to be doing this are oddities (and I suspect they're not really doing this at all, but just mimicking humans), and on their own. There's no other species that has a musical sense, that I know about. The odd thing is, I can't see any advantage that it confers, and even if it is a spandrel, as John suggests, what other advantageous trait could it be a result of? I can't think of anything. So where did it come from? Even other primates don't seem to have anything approaching it. Are there any documented instances of a bunch of chimps banging sticks on trees in a coordinated (and infectious) way, for instance? Anything like that? Even co-ordinated dancing? I've not heard of any. Any ideas? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 3 17:32:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:32:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/08/2020 17:07, Giulio Prisco wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support > kicking John out. That's something I can entirely agree with Giulio about! -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 17:37:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:37:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around half a percent. BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their failure. If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were telling the truth all along. Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy commentary. This is all about data. BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I got sick. Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 17:50:29 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:50:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: John is an adult, he knows how to follow the rules. Plus he is left-wing (not an insult, I am too) so he understands governance. What if he won't stop? Well that's what the rules are for as delineated in this post. I don't see the point in prophecizing and talking about the past. The rules have been established. What you're saying is literally the point of this thread. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But what if he won't stop? That is his history. John is fine with me > even if he did call me a liar. He just has to stop the Trump bashing. > bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find >> political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking >> John out. >> >> On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >>> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >>> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >>> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >>> >>> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >>> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >>> about Trump) - bottom line. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>>> >>>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>>> >>>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>>> >>>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>>> warning to stop that behavior. >>>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>>> Further action should not be required. >>>> >>>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>>> >>>> ExiMod >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:11:55 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:11:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we > have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the > ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to > say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians > Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, > people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in > the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the > Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for > principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has > something like a bill of rights. bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >> normally care for. >> >> Context makes it patronizing or not. >> >> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very >> happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time >> if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I >> going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be >> consoled. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>> >>> >>> >That's patronizing. >>> >> >> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >> compassion it's said to express contempt. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:16:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:16:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some others. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you > for these data? bill w > > > > Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being > collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and > uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the > caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky > data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses > live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. > > > > I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the > site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly > overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge > disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and > the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid > deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around > half a percent. > > > > BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death > decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can > see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a > percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen > before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their > failure. > > > > If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that > comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being > counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the > world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected > cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data > wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were > telling the truth all along. > > > > Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the > mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. > > > > Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy > commentary. This is all about data. > > > > BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions > based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t > tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it > wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I > wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close > extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I > got sick. > > > > Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:20:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:20:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A for > Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. > This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. > > Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the > singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown > aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be > seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and > antiquated viewpoint. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >> something like a bill of rights. bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>> normally care for. >>> >>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>> >>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>> to be consoled. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>> >>>> >>>> >That's patronizing. >>>> >>> >>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >>> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:34:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:34:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate false > correlation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:42:34 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:42:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in >> terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage I know of no other way for the trait of being susceptible to religion to come about except evolutionary selection. If you can think of any other way we got this trait, I would be very interested. > but I've never found them to be very convincing; I agree. But don't forget the trait may be a side effect of something that was under selection. The example I often use is the trait(s) that lead to drug addiction. I don't think anyone can make a cast for that trait to have been selected. The reward pathways that opiates activate are part of the human motivation system which was/is under selection. < the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the > near universal appeal of music, Music is not hard to explain. It seems to be a side effect of speaking and bilateral symmetry of the brain. > the most abstract of all the arts. It could > be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any > sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that > do confirm an advantage. That's what I think, and I strongly suspect that the trait comes from the same selection that gave us the psychological mechanism for wars. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:53:14 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps performing fearlessly in battle. That may be a factor. I suspect that a more important factor is a belief that the other tribe is made up of such vile beings that the warrior goes berserk. This might also apply. Memeoid ? a neologism for people who have been taken over by a meme to the extent that their own survival becomes inconsequential. Examples include kamikazes, suicide bombers and cult members who commit mass suicide. The term was apparently coined by H. Keith Henson in "Memes, L5 and the Religion of the Space Colonies," L5 News, September 1985 pp. 5?8,[44] and referenced in the expanded second edition of Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene (p. 330). Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:09:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:09:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: You are right, of course. How can it be done? Leaving the thing mostly intact but eliminating the extremes? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate >> false correlation >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:28:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:28:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92B2F40D-686C-4BD7-AF10-AD9D4947D91D@gmail.com> Some things really are about emotional feeling. Comforting someone isn?t a vacuous thing. You must everyone discount the role of emotions? If emotions didn?t matter, mild depression wouldn?t matter. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 11:23 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has something like a bill of rights. bill w > >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t normally care for. >> >> Context makes it patronizing or not. >> >> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be consoled. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>>> >> I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >>>> >>>> >That's patronizing. >>> >>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Mon Aug 3 19:41:49 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:41:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I disagree with the premise, Ben. Concluding that other species don't have music (or specifically a sense of rhythm as you said) just because we have not observed them tapping their feet (some of them don't have feet) seems awfully anthropocentric to me. I would not be surprised if we eventually discover that all cetaceans and certain songbirds and tropical avians do have music because they have such an impressive amount of firmware and wetware for audio signal processing. If on no other grounds than that beings above a certain threshold of complexity seem to have a tendency to find "off label" uses for their capabilities. (Hence why I cited Keith's post also.) Felids have an impressive audio range (coming and going), canids even more so. For all we know, purring is cat music. Any blind kitten can distinguish its mother's purr from a lot of background. How about howling? C'mon! I would expect that communicating across great distances (relative to body length) or building *some* kind of community confers powerful advantage and would be selected for. K3 PS. My ancient lnyx-point Siamese perks up whenever she hears "Jammin'" (it's what was playing on the car radio when I brought her home from the pound 16-ish years ago), hence her name Marlie. On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:20:52 +0100, Ben Zaiboc wrote, and Keith Henson posted separately: > Why are we the only animals that seem to have a sense of rhythm? Many > animals make noises of various kinds, sometimes even rhythmic sounds, > but you never see a group of animals getting into a groove the way > humans do. > > I've never seen a dog tapping its paw or nodding along to a piece of > music, and even birds that seem to be doing this are oddities (and I > suspect they're not really doing this at all, but just mimicking > humans), and on their own. There's no other species that has a musical > sense, that I know about. The odd thing is, I can't see any advantage > that it confers, and even if it is a spandrel, as John suggests, what > other advantageous trait could it be a result of? I can't think of > anything. So where did it come from? Even other primates don't seem to > have anything approaching it. Are there any documented instances of a > bunch of chimps banging sticks on trees in a coordinated (and > infectious) way, for instance? Anything like that? Even co-ordinated > dancing? I've not heard of any. > > Any ideas? and > Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:42:34 -0700 > From: Keith Henson > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] (no subject) [snip] > I know of no other way for the trait of being susceptible to religion > to come about except evolutionary selection. If you can think of any > other way we got this trait, I would be very interested. [snip] > Music is not hard to explain. It seems to be a side effect of > speaking and bilateral symmetry of the brain. > >> the most abstract of all the arts. It could >> be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of >> any >> sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits >> that >> do confirm an advantage. > > That's what I think, and I strongly suspect that the trait comes from > the same selection that gave us the psychological mechanism for wars. > > Keith From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:43:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:43:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned a philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science as we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and fake heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to theism, as science reveals the truth. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the > academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will > > Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is > when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false > correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >> >> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >> antiquated viewpoint. >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>>> normally care for. >>>> >>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>> >>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>> to be consoled. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >>>> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:51:03 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:51:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you're stretching the generally agreed upon definition of theism if you don't include god/gods in the definition. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned a > philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science as > we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and fake > heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to > theism, as science reveals the truth. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the >> academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will >> >> Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is >> when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false >> correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >>> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >>> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >>> >>> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >>> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >>> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >>> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >>> antiquated viewpoint. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>>>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>>>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>>>> normally care for. >>>>> >>>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>>> >>>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>>> to be consoled. >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >>>>>>> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says >>>>> "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:00:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:00:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John is fine with me even if he did call me a liar Huh? When did I do that? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:01:11 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I didn't say anything about god though. Theism implies belief in a god--I am just talking about a philosophical/theological viewpoint, not a religion. Religions have bells and whistles, unlike science, which discards anything that is not the truth. I happen to believe that it is true that a god type entity exists, so I think science and theism will approach and are approaching one another. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:54 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think you're stretching the generally agreed upon definition of theism > if you don't include god/gods in the definition. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned >> a philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science >> as we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and >> fake heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to >> theism, as science reveals the truth. >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and >>> the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will >>> >>> Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet >>> is when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and >>> false correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >>>> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >>>> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >>>> >>>> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >>>> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >>>> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >>>> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >>>> antiquated viewpoint. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>>>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>>>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>>>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>>>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>>>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>>>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>>>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>>>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>>>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and >>>>>> someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as >>>>>> patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, >>>>>> which I don?t normally care for. >>>>>> >>>>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>>>> to be consoled. >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >>>>>>>> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says >>>>>> "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:04:53 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:04:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> Actually, I recall reading about the ability of other animals to recognize melodies as units (especially when shifted in register and timbre). This is testable, and it seems like cats, dogs, other apes, and many species of birds lack this ability. If memory serves, parrots seem to have this ability too. (One theory behind this is it helps with communication since humans vary much in size and have complex vocal patterns. You saying a common word sounds different than someone who is bigger or smaller or older or younger. Of course, the problem here would be size ranges in other animals with vocal abilities seems not always to be narrow.) By the way, not sure why no one brought up wolves which tend to howl in unison and in response. (Dogs sometimes do that too. A few local dogs howl along when emergency service trucks go by with their alarms blaring.;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Aug 3, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?I disagree with the premise, Ben. Concluding that other species don't have music (or specifically a sense of rhythm as you said) just because we have not observed them tapping their feet (some of them don't have feet) seems awfully anthropocentric to me. > > I would not be surprised if we eventually discover that all cetaceans and certain songbirds and tropical avians do have music because they have such an impressive amount of firmware and wetware for audio signal processing. If on no other grounds than that beings above a certain threshold of complexity seem to have a tendency to find "off label" uses for their capabilities. (Hence why I cited Keith's post also.) Felids have an impressive audio range (coming and going), canids even more so. For all we know, purring is cat music. Any blind kitten can distinguish its mother's purr from a lot of background. How about howling? C'mon! > > I would expect that communicating across great distances (relative to body length) or building *some* kind of community confers powerful advantage and would be selected for. > > K3 > > PS. My ancient lnyx-point Siamese perks up whenever she hears "Jammin'" (it's what was playing on the car radio when I brought her home from the pound 16-ish years ago), hence her name Marlie. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odellhuff2 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:05:15 2020 From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell Huff) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:05:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > Further action should not be required. > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > ExiMod > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 20:07:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:07:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some others. bill w No worries BillW, this is a particular interest to me. Those two you named, White House and CDC are irrelevant to the decisions that matter to me: the decisions made in Sacramento are the ones that impact me directly. We are facing a huge revolution in something I am closely connected to: our local public school. The Super just told us yesterday that the shutdown study from home paradigm will apply to the entire first semester, so there will be no return to the classroom before Jingle Bells. Sounds like for the second semester students will have a choice between learn at home and part time classroom. Regarding use of my time, my study of the quality of the covid dataset is trivial compared to what I will likely soon be investing in the other activities impacted by that data. To do this most effectively I need a pretty good picture of the virus-scape. I now don?t feel I have one. Now we have open calls for public school parents and volunteers to help at-risk students in particular but they will also accept volunteers to help the most promising students. This becomes even more interesting if what I am hearing is true (not saying that it is (and it sounds dubious or exaggerated)): the teachers? union says its members will refuse to return to the classroom unless yakkity yak and bla bla, with a bunch of stuff the school board and the county cannot do for them. It includes defunding police, expanded public this and that, sheesh, a pile of stuff the Super will hafta tell them to take to the governor who will also tell them no, because he doesn?t have the budget for any of it. So what if they carry out their threat and a bunch of them refuse to come to school? For the first time, we are in a position to just adios amigo about half of them. We can come up with work-arounds. A Zoom conference works just as well with 100 students as it does with 30. spike On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around half a percent. BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their failure. If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were telling the truth all along. Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy commentary. This is all about data. BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I got sick. Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 20:49:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:49:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Odell! I might be wrong, but thought it was more than once. Welcome back. Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. How about R U Sirius? Samantha Adkins? spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Odell Huff via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 1:05 PM To: ExiMod ; ExI chat list Cc: Odell Huff Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi List Supervision I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat > wrote: Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads that have nothing to do with politics. There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one warning to stop that behavior. Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to provide time for tempers to cool down. Further action should not be required. Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! ExiMod Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:58:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:58:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Defunding the police? Aren't they a bit off topic? I guess the theory is that as long as you are asking for something, why not ask for the Moon? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. > I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen > to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some > others. > > > > bill w > > > > > > No worries BillW, this is a particular interest to me. Those two you > named, White House and CDC are irrelevant to the decisions that matter to > me: the decisions made in Sacramento are the ones that impact me directly. > > > > We are facing a huge revolution in something I am closely connected to: > our local public school. The Super just told us yesterday that the > shutdown study from home paradigm will apply to the entire first semester, > so there will be no return to the classroom before Jingle Bells. Sounds > like for the second semester students will have a choice between learn at > home and part time classroom. > > > > Regarding use of my time, my study of the quality of the covid dataset is > trivial compared to what I will likely soon be investing in the other > activities impacted by that data. To do this most effectively I need a > pretty good picture of the virus-scape. I now don?t feel I have one. > > > > Now we have open calls for public school parents and volunteers to help > at-risk students in particular but they will also accept volunteers to help > the most promising students. This becomes even more interesting if what I > am hearing is true (not saying that it is (and it sounds dubious or > exaggerated)): the teachers? union says its members will refuse to return > to the classroom unless yakkity yak and bla bla, with a bunch of stuff the > school board and the county cannot do for them. It includes defunding > police, expanded public this and that, sheesh, a pile of stuff the Super > will hafta tell them to take to the governor who will also tell them no, > because he doesn?t have the budget for any of it. > > > > So what if they carry out their threat and a bunch of them refuse to come > to school? For the first time, we are in a position to just adios amigo > about half of them. We can come up with work-arounds. A Zoom conference > works just as well with 100 students as it does with 30. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you > for these data? bill w > > > > Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being > collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and > uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the > caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky > data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses > live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. > > > > I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the > site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly > overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge > disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and > the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid > deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around > half a percent. > > > > BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death > decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can > see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a > percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen > before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their > failure. > > > > If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that > comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being > counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the > world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected > cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data > wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were > telling the truth all along. > > > > Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the > mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. > > > > Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy > commentary. This is all about data. > > > > BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions > based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t > tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it > wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I > wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close > extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I > got sick. > > > > Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odellhuff2 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:58:40 2020 From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell Huff) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:58:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike, thank you--I haven't been in touch with Morrow for like two decades, I see he's a professor. I think my friend Tom Palmer, who should be on this list, is in touch with him. I don't think I know Sirius or Adkins, I'm sorry. Best, Odell On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM wrote: > Odell! > > > > I might be wrong, but thought it was more than once. Welcome back. > > > > Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. How about R U Sirius? Samantha > Adkins? > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Odell Huff via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 1:05 PM > *To:* ExiMod ; ExI chat list < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > *Cc:* Odell Huff > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s > when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have > contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to > the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech > never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > > Further action should not be required. > > > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > ExiMod > > > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 3 21:19:03 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:19:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-03 13:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. aka Tom W Bell? I see mention of his activities from time to time. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 21:26:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:26:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <034501d669dc$b7b0b0a0$271211e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Defunding the police? Aren't they a bit off topic? I guess the theory is that as long as you are asking for something, why not ask for the Moon? bill w I interpreted it as sacrificial bargaining chips, knowing that kind of stuff will be dismissed. What the teachers really want is hazard pay, and I see their point. They are also being asked to redo their curriculum to fit the current crises. At the elementary and secondary levels, many teachers derive most of their curriculum in the first two or three years with some experimentation, then they run mostly on autopilot for next two or three decades, with only minor tweaks. Now? they must redesign everything. So sure, that?s a big job and sure, there are new risks of catching WuFlu from students, particularly the grimey little ones if they carry it. Last school year we transitioned to online learning, but the classes were already established, relationships between students and teachers firm. Now? none of that applies. We had a hell of a time with disengaged students. Now with new teachers and new everything, that problem is likely to be worse. BillW, it is important that we understand the virus-scape. If the data is junky at the collection site, the next level can only get junkier as the junky data gets handed up and combined. The counties admit the uncertainty down near the ground, then the state doesn?t offer the same caveats at the decision level. That same junky data is handed up yet again, where the Johns Hopkins site and others collect 50 junky datasets and combine them into a still-junkier set, without caveats anywhere. That last step doesn?t bother me as much because decisions aren?t made up there, they are made at the state and (to some extent) the county levels. This is all good news in a way. All this time, and I am just now realizing that covid cases could have been systematically undercounted (I was sick as hell, still haven?t tested) but that covid deaths could have been systematically overcounted. This suggests this particular flu isn?t as dangerous as we have been led to believe. I might have had covid. If so, I could be caught gawking like a prairie chicken in the parking lot in front of the local house of harlotry, die of embarrassment, the county coroner, not knowing the circumstances of my passing, finds the antibodies, records that cause on my death certificate (which under those particular circumstances is perhaps a good thing) the misunderstanding inflates the statistics even more. What?s worse: I get cryonics, nanotech, uploading, I reanimate, recall the circumstances that led to my untimely demise back when I was still meat, die again for same reason, double tragedy. We need to understand how reliable or otherwise is this dataset, and if we still don?t know, then we need to admit we still don?t know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 3 21:28:13 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:28:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> References: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51de42ba-2ff1-44f1-5ec1-f6cd93835841@pobox.com> I read somewhere in the past year that someone had composed music for smaller mammals, the idea being that they probably don't appreciate our music because its rhythm is made for our slower heartbeat, among other differences. I do not remember whether the intended audience responded. On 2020-8-03 13:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > By the way, not sure why no one brought up wolves which tend to howl in > unison and in response. (Dogs sometimes do that too. A few local dogs > howl along when emergency service trucks go by with their alarms blaring.;) One time many years ago, I was in my room singing along with Gordon Lightfoot, "Song for a Winter Night" which ends with "oo, oo, oo, oo" -- such a simple sound that, because I was not exactly on pitch, the beats were very evident. A cat was in the room, and she howled! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 04:40:25 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:40:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > I am officially freaking out. I went to two different California state covid dashboards, one run by the University of California and the other by LA Times. Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. I don't understand why you are concerned. Unless you think the data all over the world is manipulated, what difference does miscounting make in how you or other people live? If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 05:01:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ... Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. >...If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith _______________________________________________ Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no longer profitable. There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is difficult to estimate. If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did makes sense. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 08:56:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 04:56:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If the mortality rate for covid really is about half apercent, then > covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole > shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, * Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 4 10:44:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:44:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> Various people responded, mostly not mentioning rhythms. This is why I specifically mentioned a sense of rhythm. I appreciate that our senses are narrow, so there may be animals that do have a sense of rhythm but we can't see it. The examples given all have easy answers that have nothing to do with a musical sense (rhythm). ?Anton Sherwood wrote: > I read somewhere in the past year that someone had composed music for > smaller mammals, the idea being that they probably don't appreciate > our music because its rhythm is made for our slower heartbeat, among > other differences.? I do not remember whether the intended audience > responded. Now that would be interesting. But a small mammal responding by squeaking, or similar, would only prove that they had heard the noises and perhaps were alarmed or surprised by them, or recognised them, etc., not that they had a musical sense. My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. Mentioning other animals is just by contrast. Speculation aside, we have no evidence that any other animal has a musical sense. -- Ben Zaiboc From rahmans at me.com Tue Aug 4 10:57:20 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:57:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2C02BF-C90A-46CF-B97D-FA5536FAD29F@me.com> > Spike wrote: > > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a > percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then > the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and > consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every > flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no > longer profitable. > > There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains > of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal > destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is > difficult to estimate. > > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in > response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did > makes sense. Spike, Data from the CDC on flu shows a range of 12000 deaths to 61000 deaths per year in this data since 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html (Go down to Figure 2) Seeing as covid-19 is at 150000+ and if we do a naive projection of 300000 for the full year, we can conclude that covid-19 is roughly 5x worse than a bad flu year. That?s as things stand however, because many epidemiologists have projected from the beginning that the ?second wave? is going to be the worst part. As to death rates: ROME (AP) - Antibody testing in Italy indicates that nearly 1.5 million people, or about 2.5% of the population, have had the coronavirus. But officials said Monday that huge geographic variations in the results confirmed a nationwide lockdown was ?absolutely crucial? to preventing the country?s south from getting slammed as badly as its north. Currently, about 35k deaths and approx. 1500k infections, that works out to 2.3%. Again, this is with the caveat that we haven?t had the ?second wave? yet, and that the entirety of Italy was not overwhelmed at once, just the northern areas. If a health care system gets overwhelmed and modern medical care isn?t available it seems very safe to assume that a higher percentage will perish. Also, as the US health care system?s default position is overwhelmed (ie. it does not cover all citizens/residents), it is reasonable to expect US death rates to be higher. As to shutting down the economy, as I?ve said before (but in other words): money supply is only limited by your trust in that supply (This is true of all types of money: metals, paper, algorithm) The productive parts of the economy, (farming, factories, distribution), are all functioning at ?decent? levels. Subsidies should be given to those employed in sectors that are likely to increase disease spread (lots of service sectors, education, etc.). This sort of behavior will increase your trust in the system and increase the value of that money. *DONS A TINFOIL HAT* Of course, reducing trust in the system has reduced the value (exchange rate) of American money which makes American exports more attractive. Also, the prospect of losing your house might force truly desperate workers to take jobs at reduced wages despite the increased risk of illness/death. Also, the prospect of losing your health care, which is tied to your job, might force desperate workers back out into unsafe working conditions at reduced wages. *REMOVES A TINFOIL HAT* But now that I have my tinfoil hat off I can?t think of single person or political group that would want to enrich themselves during a pandemic. Inconceivable! It?s not as if lawmakers would just let assistance programs expire and go home for the weekend. With best wishes (especially for your health), Omar Rahman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 11:59:20 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:59:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 5:00 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator > ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. > Do not talk about mystery man moderator Rowdy goats will be removed from the pen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 12:10:01 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:10:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> References: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 6:46 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in > the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. > > Mentioning other animals is just by contrast. Speculation aside, we have > no evidence that any other animal has a musical sense. > What evidence do you need? Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence, or does a nonhuman have to compose original music that you recognize as rhythmically pleasing? I guess my question is about how human self-centered awareness is overcome to even recognize nonhuman cognition, including less tangible ability like musical sense. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 13:13:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 06:13:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > If the mortality rate for covid really is about half apercent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. John K Clark John everything isn?t politics. The shutdown wasn?t any particular party or political leader. I am not promoting any philosophy or candidate or nation or state or medical expert. I am seeing a means of systematically undercounting covid cases (from having never been tested) along with a means of systematically overcounting covid deaths (by including deaths that did not necessarily die of covid (says it right there on the county websites (but not on the state level site it feeds (nor on the national level sites by the CDC (nor on the world level statistics compiled by Johns Hopkins.)))))) Everything isn?t politics. This isn?t politics. This is science. We mighta undercounted cases and overcounted deaths. The impacted number is the mortality rate in percent. But since you and I are old enough to remember when AIDS started up, consider how that unfolded. A new disease came along and suddenly, for the first time I recall, it was all about politics rather than science. I had always thought of smart doctors such as Jonas Salk figuring out what was going wrong and how to fix it. But somehow it was all about politics that time. This seems to be a replay of that. But politics never found an answer. Nearly every country in the world shut down or partially shut down their economies for covid. But if we systematically calculated a mortality rate incorrectly and this is another swine flu, another bird flu, another Spanish flu, another MERSA, then the shutdown was a huge mistake everywhere. Businesses die everywhere. If businesses die, we die. Everything is not political. This time it really is science. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 13:50:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:50:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Everything is not political.* Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 15:23:04 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:23:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When a government program retains massive funding and universal support despite it being literally impossible for it to fulfill its stated objectives, assume that the stated objectives are a lie and that it is fulfilling its /actual/ objectives perfectly. The actual objective of those state COVID dashboards is /not/ to empower a vast army of amateur citizen epidemiologists. That would be absurd and counterproductive. The state already has all the epidemiology expertise it needs on tap. The /actual/ objective of thos COVID dashboards is to make us afraid. And they are working perfectly for the overwhelming majority of the population. No problems here. Move along, citizen.. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 7:52 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *>Everything is not political.* > > > Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to > systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in > the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be > accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your > arguments must remain unchallenged. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 15:29:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:29:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 6:50 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >Everything is not political. Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. John K Clark OK cool no worries John, we understand. A toxic environment developed here over the past few yrs, many valued contributors left. But we can fix it. This is long, but please at least skim it, for I could use the advice. Here?s why I am obsessing about all this. I was chosen as a member of a board of advisors for the local public schools. We have members on that board who span the traditional spectrum and those who are not on it at all: Indians on H1B visas who plan to stay only long enough to learn how to build electric cars, after which they will go back to India and China and build them there for instance, and at least one I think is an illegal immigrant but none of that matters because this is a free state with only one mainstream party. The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. I come from an oddball case: I am working with advanced students as a volunteer (we volunteers get to choose what we volunteer to do (it?s one of the privileges of not accepting a paycheck (I have a lot more to offer high school level elite students than I do to struggling or disengaged or younger (I have no idea how to help those.))))) My oddball case: my son and his cadre have done GREAT under distance learning. The teachers mostly got off the runway and they took right off, they soar with eagles. OK then. We are not directors, but we are advisors. The state wants us to enforce social distancing, even if it means double shifting students. Problem: this particular high school is so crowded, we could double-shift and still not make the necessary 6 ft or 2 meter distancing. Not only that? well, we have all been to high school. Regardless of the rules, sometimes in high school the social distance goes to zero. Hell, for some students it even goes? um? negative. And sinusoidal but I digress. They won?t necessarily follow the rules. We didn?t either. We could cut the student body in half and still not make the county and state guidelines for this particular high school. if we fail they could unapologetically kick us all off the campus adios amigos, Which creates a whole nuther bunch of headaches. However? I also know that my case is an oddball: after a survey (and similar results from others doing the same) we confidently (if disappointedly) conclude that distance learning has been generally a failure for most students, and is inadequate even for average students. We think it is completely inadequate for younger students. So? None of this has anything to do with traditional politics from what I can see, so I would think it would be allowed on ExI. I am not criticizing anyone or promoting anyone. If I were to promote anyone, it would be the non-politician Sal Khan (it is not too lake to draft that guy (drag him kicking and screaming to Washington to make him be our leader (but that would be a tragic waste of a perfectly good Sal Khan (and we have only one of him.)))) I am not advocating for any particular party or philosophy, only reporting what I see: distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom disengaged entirely. The baseline plan which starts in 9 days: we will have all mainstream students distance learning at first, probably the first semester. The students identified as struggling, the disengaged, language challenged, economically challenged, homeless, the illegal immigrants, the learning disabled, juvenile delinquents on probation for major violent felonies etc will be on campus starting 13 August as will some of the (bravest) teachers. We rigged up some cameras which follow motion, so they can broadcast lectures the way baseball contests are being done: to mostly empty classrooms (I don?t know if students will be offered the opportunity to pay 100 bucks to make cardboard likenesses of themselves to place in a chair in the mostly empty classrooms.) John that?s where I am: trying to figure out if we have made some kind of systematic error in how covid numbers were counted. It might be there was some error but it wasn?t huge. It could be that over time, more and more people will test and find they had covid and recovered without incident, we don?t know. If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory board, I am all ears. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 16:06:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county Message-ID: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?The baseline plan which starts in 9 days: we will have all mainstream students distance learning at first, probably the first semester. The students identified as struggling, the disengaged, language challenged, economically challenged, homeless, the illegal immigrants, the learning disabled, juvenile delinquents on probation for major violent felonies etc will be on campus starting 13 August as will some of the (bravest) teachers. >?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the cameras. Imagine please a campus which last year had about 3400 students and about 160 staff. Starting in 9 days, that campus will have an estimated 600 students with about 70 staff. Under ordinary circumstances, that would be a great high school, however? that particular crowd might be different. We have filtered out all the elite and mainstream students, and left a concentration of problem students, students with an attitude, students who have developed an attitude over the summer by the riots and such, students with disabilities, etc, without the boring faceless masses to dilute them. This could be a scary time for those on campus who are not themselves scary, but are there because both parents work and the family cannot afford daycare or cannot leave them home alone for whatever reason. Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions welcome. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 16:07:33 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:07:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7171CB4E-794D-45B9-B495-21F05FD1F8B1@gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:07 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a > percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then > the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and > consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every > flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no > longer profitable. > > There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains > of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal > destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is > difficult to estimate. > > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in > response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did > makes sense. What about policy choice under uncertainty? Real world choices almost always are made where one doesn?t have accurate data. So post hoc corrections can?t really mean choices made were senseless. And when there?s contradictory data, then there might several conflicting yet sensible choices, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 16:07:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:07:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> **distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for > the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom > disengaged entirely.* > Unfortunately I think that's probably true, but bad as it is distance learning is not as big a failure as death is. > If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory > board, I am all ears. If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 4 16:43:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:43:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> On 04/08/2020 17:07, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence? I don't know. More information is needed. Do all cockatiels do this? Are they in time with the beat? Do they follow changes in tempo? Do they appear to enjoy it, or is it some kind of response to an irritating noise? Do they do this under different circumstances? Etc. Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 16:51:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:51:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 9:08 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom disengaged entirely. Unfortunately I think that's probably true, but bad as it is distance learning is not as big a failure as death is. > If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory board, I am all ears. If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? If we eliminate or ignore small countries where a small error makes a huge difference and only focus on big countries, Belgium is the hardest hit in the world with UK close behind, if measured in deaths per capita. Oh those outfits have high numbers, mercy. However? both of those places have very plausible arguments for why their numbers are so high, which has nothing to do with schools: Brussels is kinda sorta the capital of Europe (depending on how you look at it) and London is the financial capital of the world (depending on how you look at it) so those places just have a lotta international travel. Spain, Peru, Italy, all better stay home. Borderline cases: Sweden, Chile, USA, France, Brazil, all with borderline numbers. I don?t know how the other nations work, but the authority on public schools in the USA is at the state level, so I think we would need to break that down by state to make sense of it. We also should pay attention to what Belgium is saying: these numbers are not comparable because they are not being counted the same way. I have half a mind to believe them. The Belgians seem honest to me: some of my own ancestors are from there (if we go back to the early 1700s.) Schools are a special case. Patrons patronize a business by choice, but children must go to school (in some form or other (by law (in the US.))) This brings up another interesting question. Last year we had about 18% of the students who disengaged: either never logged on or stopped logging on. We were required to give the students either a letter grade (if they requested that system) or give a pass/fail. However? when it came right down to the finish line, it was unclear if the school had the right to assign a fail grade to students who did not engage. They could argue they ran out of bandwidth or their computer didn?t work or they couldn?t hear or any number of flimsy excuses. As far as we could tell, the school was (almost (perhaps)) legally obligated to pass them anyway, even if they never logged on. So? we did. What if? that happens again? Or rather, what happens WHEN that happens again? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 17:19:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:19:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. Ben Zaiboc Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:44 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 04/08/2020 17:07, Mike Dougherty wrote: > > Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence? > > I don't know. More information is needed. Do all cockatiels do this? Are > they in time with the beat? Do they follow changes in tempo? Do they > appear to enjoy it, or is it some kind of response to an irritating > noise? Do they do this under different circumstances? Etc. > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 17:53:19 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:53:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 18:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. > Ben Zaiboc > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. > bill w > Lots more than one! :) BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:04:48 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:04:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: T > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ... Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. >...If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no longer profitable. The COVID-19 death rate will not be known until the pandemic is over. That makes it hard to fault the public health shutdowns, which in any case were targeted to keeping the hospitals from being swamped. They were swamped in Ecuador, people died at home and their bodies were left out on the streets. > here's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. That implies intent, I can't buy that. It's far more likely that the health officials were doing the best they could on incomplete information. For example, the main accepted mode of transmission has shifted from picking up the virus from a surface to aerosol, the superspreader events. Had this been known since the start, masks would have been recognized as vital. Also, the aerosol transmission route is disrupted by being out of buildings. Big experiment, the demonstrations were not followed by a jump in COVID infections. Opening the indoor bars has turned out to be a disaster. So have church services. There is an additional factor that the health people have not worked into their accounting. Some of the people who get COVID-19 have lasting after effects, particularly heart damage. Permanent damage or a long recovery time was seen in the people who got the original SAR infection. > The level of societal destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is difficult to estimate. > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did makes sense. "From a blog I am reading: "Exactly, crashing the economy and ruining millions of lives for the sake of a slight retardation in the deaths of the very elderly. Simply insane." For my age, the death rate is around 10%. If there is a vaccine soon, the shutdowns will be seen as a life-saving idea. If not, the "area under the curve" will be much the same. The indirect effect on hospitals may be worse than people on ventilators filling the ICUs To a large extent (as you have noted) people have been avoiding hospitals if they can. This is individual decisions, not advice of the government. Sometimes this is fatal. As far as economics goes, I didn't eat out more than a few times a year. My expenses for groceries and related things have gone up by about 20% partly because of delivery charges. A bit from The Gardian. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/04/coronavirus-pandemic-wave-wildfire "Like a wildfire, the virus relentlessly seeks out fuel (human hosts), devastating some areas while sparing others. It will continue spreading until we achieve sufficient herd immunity ? when 50 to 70% of the population has developed protective antibodies ? to significantly slow transmission. We will achieve herd immunity either through widespread infection or an effective and widely available vaccine. No amount of official happy talk will change that course." Keith From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 18:20:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201d66a8b$e3658d10$aa30a730$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >...The COVID-19 death rate will not be known until the pandemic is over... Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or campaigning, but rather a laser focus on the science and the data, which is really what we do best in this forum. May you escape this brutal scourge, and also your bride. May cryonics work for us, may we live (even if softly) to see the heat death of the universe or the big rip (owww, damn that sounds painful (even to a sim.)) spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 18:30:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:30:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county In-Reply-To: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: school ideas, was: RE: [ExI] next county From: spike at rainier66.com > >>?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? >?So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the cameras?Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions welcome?spike There?s something else I need to mention which might come into play. In any capitalist system, the average prole does better than the average prole in communism. But there is a universal observation: the rich get richer. In schools, as more and more online resources come available, the academically rich get richer faster than before. Perhaps we have plenty of elite and talented students present, well you remember high school. You remember how much or even most of your time was wasted waiting for the others to catch up. But they never did. How we would have soared with eagles had we the resources the young have today. After Mr. Musk came to town brining all those smart driven H1Bs, we have watched our local public school?s average scores march northward, oh my what a marvelous trend. Less discussed but even more dramatic: the accompanying northward charge of the standard deviation. The academically rich are getting fabulously rich, the academically poor and those who do not use the free online resources, are getting nothing, perhaps even less than they were getting before. Online instruction is leading to increased academic polarization. It is almost like the fall of the Berlin Wall, when communism fell. There are those who argue that increased academic polarization is a bad thing, even if average scores are going up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:35:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:35:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If that cockatiel understands rhythm I'm a platypus. Just imitation behavior. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:56 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 18:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not > evidence. > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable > esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be > noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence > should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. > > bill w > > > > Lots more than one! :) > > < > https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=cockatiel+dancing&atb=v154-1&iax=videos&ia=videos > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:45:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:45:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county In-Reply-To: <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> References: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Some students should have been left behind circa the 8th or 9th grade. Shunted into plumbing, carpentry, or just their choice. Not academically inclined nor academically gifted. Good money to be made in those fields. This would get rid of some parts of the bottom of the curve. Our stupid state requires algebra to graduate from high school. Stupid. No available training for other than academic professions. Perhaps many of those uninterested are just blown away by 9th grade algebra and the like. Not dumb or stupid or just immature - bored with what they can't understand. Hard to like something you cannot understand. I think we should have a high school 'major' in retail sales. Lack of that learning may be in part responsible for all the small retail stores going under in a few years. No finance classes in high school. No, it's not just attitude in those failing to take advantage of online learning. Is there any plumbing there? Carpentry? (probably so - do they know that? Are they ever told that if academics don't suit them here are these other options? I doubt it.) bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* school ideas, was: RE: [ExI] next county > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >>?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? > > > > >?So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the > cameras?Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions > welcome?spike > > > > > > There?s something else I need to mention which might come into play. In > any capitalist system, the average prole does better than the average prole > in communism. But there is a universal observation: the rich get richer. > > > > In schools, as more and more online resources come available, the > academically rich get richer faster than before. Perhaps we have plenty of > elite and talented students present, well you remember high school. You > remember how much or even most of your time was wasted waiting for the > others to catch up. But they never did. How we would have soared with > eagles had we the resources the young have today. > > > > After Mr. Musk came to town brining all those smart driven H1Bs, we have > watched our local public school?s average scores march northward, oh my > what a marvelous trend. Less discussed but even more dramatic: the > accompanying northward charge of the standard deviation. The academically > rich are getting fabulously rich, the academically poor and those who do > not use the free online resources, are getting nothing, perhaps even less > than they were getting before. > > > > Online instruction is leading to increased academic polarization. It is > almost like the fall of the Berlin Wall, when communism fell. There are > those who argue that increased academic polarization is a bad thing, even > if average scores are going up. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 19:57:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:57:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how >> schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in >> the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work >> anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools >> in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. >> > > > John K Clark > > > > *> What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? * > I'm not sure what the exact cut off number is, but whatever that point is we certainly passed it by a week in early July when just Florida and Texas reported 3 times more new COVID-19 cases than all 27 countries of the European Union combined. The European numbers would look even better if it wasn't for Sweden; the former great example of how to handle a pandemic without damaging an economy has turned into the new Sick Man of Europe. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:23:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:23:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attention Will Message-ID: https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to better mental health medicines. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:35:04 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:35:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 17:53, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? If we eliminate or ignore small countries where a small error makes a huge difference and only focus on big countries, Belgium is the hardest hit in the world with UK close behind, if measured in deaths per capita. Oh those outfits have high numbers, mercy. > > However? both of those places have very plausible arguments for why their numbers are so high, which has nothing to do with schools: Brussels is kinda sorta the capital of Europe (depending on how you look at it) and London is the financial capital of the world (depending on how you look at it) so those places just have a lotta international travel. Spain, Peru, Italy, all better stay home. > > Borderline cases: Sweden, Chile, USA, France, Brazil, all with borderline numbers. I don?t know how the other nations work, but the authority on public schools in the USA is at the state level, so I think we would need to break that down by state to make sense of it. > > We also should pay attention to what Belgium is saying: these numbers are not comparable because they are not being counted the same way. I have half a mind to believe them. The Belgians seem honest to me: some of my own ancestors are from there (if we go back to the early 1700s.) > > Schools are a special case. Patrons patronize a business by choice, but children must go to school (in some form or other (by law (in the US.))) > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike This article just arrived. Looks like useful information. One quote I noticed was : Communities can use three basic metrics for assessing the virus?s spread: COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and how many tests for SARS-CoV-2 are coming back positive. There are no magic numbers for these metrics, Armstrong says; instead of looking at one day or one value, it?s important to look at trends over the course of two weeks. ?If your trends are not coming down, then there?s a problem,? she says. -------------------------- So if areas are using different counting methods you can't compare areas, but you can look at the trends in each area. BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:36:15 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:36:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome study! Psilocybin is also being researched at JHU and mushrooms are being considered for decriminalization in some locales. In general we are having a bit of a psychedelic renaissance--I have even seen psychedelic psychotherapy clinicse in NYC, not sure how they operate legally though, perhaps affiliated with a research organization. I heartily recommend all of you smart folks to try psychedelic substances. Premium gas is best used in engines of the highest quality. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 16:24 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but > I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that > psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to > better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 20:57:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:57:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark > What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? >?I'm not sure what the exact cut off number is, but whatever that point is we certainly passed it? We? You and I don?t live in the same state. >? when just Florida and Texas reported 3 times more new COVID-19 cases? John K Clark OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. New York, New Jersey, schools stay closed. Clearly some states can open their schools. California has delegated most of the responsibility to the county level on public schools, so that one is a special case for very understandable reasons: there are some counties which are covid catastrophes and some which are nearly untouched. I see five counties up in the north end with 752 confirmed cases (combined) with zero fatalities in any of them. Oh wait, that report was from last week. Most recent data from today: 752 confirmed cases (combined) with zero fatalities. Note that the 752 patients who didn?t perish in those counties survived WITH covid, but not necessarily OF covid. (?sensa huma, sheesh?) I had heard of those counties for the reason that none of them shut down their businesses and the state authorities didn?t mess with them. Eh, it is a good idea to jump at every opportunity to not mess with Modoc County. Or Lassen, or Plumas, Sierra, Shasta, those kindsa places. They whoop ass up that way if one fails to be respectful and carry oneself with gentlemanly manners. Clearly the decisions on how those counties should run their business shouldn?t be made in Sacramento, where the same rules would apply in Los Angeles county with nearly 200k confirmed cases and 4700 fatalities (oh dear, close those schools, close everything forthwith down there.) So, OK then. California is a mixed bag. The governor made a sensible decision: conditions in counties vary widely, so they must make the call. Problem: the county health departments then become power without accountability: they aren?t elected. I don?t know if mayors have the authority to overrule county health departments in California. Some states are in really good shape: Hawaii, Montana, Wyoming, Kentucky, West Virginia, Vermont and Alaska for instance. Those outfits should open their schools and get on with it. Montana, Vermont and Wyoming were already doing well academically, but my birth state of Kentucky and family seat in West Virginia can certainly use some help academically. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 21:07:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:07:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike This article just arrived. Looks like useful information. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-kids-schools-opening-when-how-risks One quote I noticed was : ... ?If your trends are not coming down, then there?s a problem,? she says. -------------------------- >...So if areas are using different counting methods you can't compare areas, but you can look at the trends in each area. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! Excellent article! Very informative. I might speculate that Puerto Rico mighta gotten holda some bad test kits. That 100.00% positive rate just looks a bit suspish. If we compare by area, my city and the one to the north are in good shape to reopen schools: our case load has been mercifully mild. How is UK handling school re-opening? Do you have something analogous to our state governors there? Can Scotland and Ireland and Wales make their own calls? spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:23:36 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:23:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision Message-ID: I understand the need at times to ban people. I have done it twice on Power Satellite Economics for people who persisted in posting nonsense. There are people on this list that I almost always skip and seldom reply to. That seems as effective as anything. I agree that posts about US politics are not much use since most of us have rather strong opinions about the current situation. But I really hope that meta-level discussion is not banned. How we got into the situation and what might be done to prevent it from continuing or getting worse is a legitimate topic, though I must admit that few people seem to grok the underlying stone age origin. Also hope humor is not banned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIkl2QnJeI NSFW Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:24:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:24:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools.* Spike, if there's ever *anything* that needs a coordinated national strategy it's a pandemic because the virus doesn't know or care what state it's in. Remember when people were saying the epidemic was just a local phenomenon and only people in New York City need to worry about it? People cross state lines and their viruses go with them. The long-term effect of dealing with this on a strictly local level will inevitably produce lots and lots of local charnel houses. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:40:21 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:40:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 22:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > How is UK handling school re-opening? Do you have something analogous to our state governors there? Can Scotland and Ireland and Wales make their own calls? > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike Chaos is how I would describe the UK situation. Yes, each country can make their own rules. These government rules keep changing though. Local councils can also make rules. Headmasters and teachers also argue about rules. Some schools will open, some won't. Some parents will refuse to send their children to school until much later. The government has spent months trying to terrify the population, closing businesses and putting people into house arrest and now they are surprised that people are getting angry. Anything could happen really as some towns are now going back into lockdown. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 21:41:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:41:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. >?Spike, if there's ever anything that needs a coordinated national strategy it's a pandemic because the virus doesn't know or care what state it's in. Remember when people were saying the epidemic was just a local phenomenon and only people in New York City need to worry about it? People cross state lines and their viruses go with them. The long-term effect of dealing with this on a strictly local level will inevitably produce lots and lots of local charnel houses. John K Clark Granted the virus can cross state lines, however governors are the ones who have the actual legal authority on schools. The Fed doesn?t and cannot have the authority for that, which is good: conditions vary too much from state to state and within states from county to county. I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would you? Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you? Why? I agree with California?s approach: the final call on schools must be made at the county level. What I don?t know is if mayors can overrule county health officials. If they can?t, that itself is a new concern: the elected guy is overruled by the unelected. Conditions vary a lot in a nation as big as this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Tue Aug 4 22:00:55 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:00:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for info on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for broader psychedelic science news. -Henry > On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:07:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:07:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Henry, but I just ran across that in Google News and have no particular interest in it. Will will see it. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:02 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bill, > Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for info > on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for > broader psychedelic science news. > -Henry > > On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but > I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that > psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to > better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:29:13 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:29:13 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:44:42 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:44:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Both great websites! My favorite psychedelic-related website, though, is http://www.erowid.org ;) On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks Henry, but I just ran across that in Google News and have no > particular interest in it. Will will see it. bill w > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:02 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Bill, >> Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for >> info on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for >> broader psychedelic science news. >> -Henry >> >> On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 >> >> There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, >> but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that >> psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to >> better mental health medicines. >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 23:52:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:52:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014c01d66aba$4e0c7970$ea256c50$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. Texas revised their covid-19 death count downward after a change in the rules on how to count them. They now must go by the cause of death listed on the death certificate: https://thejewishvoice.com/2020/08/cdc-chief-agrees-theres-perverse-economic-incentive-for-hospitals-to-inflate-coronavirus-deaths/ CDC Director Robert Redfield: I think you?re correct in that we?ve seen this in other disease processes too, really in the HIV epidemic, somebody may have a heart attack, but also have HIV ? the hospital would prefer the [classification] for HIV because there?s greater reimbursement. https://www.c-span.org/video/?474168-1/drs-fauci-redfield-testify-national-strategy-combat-covid-19 &live Hmmm. This tells me that Texas was gathering covid death data from hospitals previously, but now they are reading actual death certificates. We need a unified system for deciding what is and what is not a covid death. Without that, we have self-contradictory web pages, like those California counties, where the chart is labeled Covid-19 deaths but the fine print says they didn?t necessarily die of Covid-19. Sheesh, oh well, at least that isn?t political. It?s just business. Economic incentives are not perverse. They are economic. Actual perversion is perverse. Economics is only money. But big decisions are still riding on that data. Now I hafta wonder, since BillK explains that UK is also having a bit of bother on this topic: do nations in general have a way to deal with cases where patients expired WITH covid-19 but it is unclear if they perished OF covid-19? What happens if a country is incentivized the other way, to under-report covid deaths, for national pride for example? How far can the whole thing be stretched back the other way? Can Swedish medics claim on death certificates that the patient perished from overdosing on meatballs and ABBA records? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:17:35 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 01:17:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. Ah, Spike, think about this a bit. Do you want elected people who may not know anything about public health making public health decisions? A *lot* of the teachers are relatively old. I think they have good reason to be concerned about dying of COVID. If you want to do something useful, try proposing teachers wear the powered HEPA filters and helmet the COVID ICU nurses wear. The nurses work for months in a virus saturated environment and few if any of them get sick. Retail, they are around $700, but in quantity probably half that much or less. There is a much lower cost and slightly related way to protect the students, we could talk about on the phone. You are an engineer. This is an engineering problem. I think finding and getting a solution tried and accepted is a lot more useful than worrying about relatively small distortions in the death records of counties. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:37:11 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 01:37:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc woote snip > My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. I think it is completely obvious. Oliver Sacks reported decades ago on a woman musician who had a stroke in the area directly opposite her speech area and completely lost all her music skills (but nothing else). So we know where music is located in the brain. The origin was our obviously strongly selected speech abilities. Bilateral symmetry gave the brain an area that could control speech but was not used for that and was available for something else, music. There has probably been evolutionary selection to make humans better singers, but these two factors are enough to account for the origin of music in humans, a side effect of speech and bilateral symmetry. Keith PS now if it could just figure out how the traits for religion were selected in the same events that selected traits for wars . . . . From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:37:05 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 02:37:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or campaigning, Thanks for the compliment. My actual thoughts on the current situation puts John in the shade. Worse, I understand the stone age origins of the situation even if I fail to pass that understanding to many on this list. (it is somewhat involved.) Some on this list know that my last (failed) attempt to change something of this class got me refugee status in Canada for a few years followed by months in solitary confinement in a jail that is now a hotbed of virus infection. The FBI failed as well. The cult's influence forced the FBI off a case involving human trafficking and illegal confinement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_(Scientology) https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/03/confirmation-of-the-2009-fbi-trafficking-probe-of-scientology-that-the-church-denied/ If any of you wonder why I self-censor . . . . Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 10:50:31 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 03:50:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unitarian Universalist was meaning of life Message-ID: UUs do have some unstated beliefs, they are (or were 40 years ago) hostile to cryonics. Humanists had similar attitudes. I analyzed their opposition as a case of applying "liberal guilt." >From an old cryonet posting: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=18376 >Why single out Christianity? Is not all religion similarly responsible - >diverting effort from what really may solve the problem of death into >pointless ceremony and ritual? Memetic reasons. This is an article with the point of bringing Humanists around to our view of the world, call it progressive as opposed to the dominant view some years ago of "liberal guilt," that it was unfair for a few selfish people to live while all the poor died. Some of you may remember the very hostile reaction cryonics got (we were asked to leave) a Humanist meeting in San Jose ten or twelve years ago. Unitarians shared much of the same ideas, a Unitarian minister was defrocked for speaking out about cryonics about the same time. I knew a UU minister who (I made a case) was defrocked over his talking about cryonics. The story, including his view of what happened, is written up somewhere, but I can't find it. It was a funny story and the minister involved made out like a bandit, he got a job he really liked that paid much better. Has been signed up for cryonics for a long time now. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 11:39:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:39:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would > you?* Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive ability leading the effort. > *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the USA. *> Why?* Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 11:59:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:59:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:40 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *My actual thoughts on the current* *situation puts John in the shade. *[...] > *If any of you wonder why I self-censor . . . .* Keith, you're a braver man than I am! If I had endured a tenth as much injustice as you have I'd be practicing self-censorship too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 13:30:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d66b2c$a0d1ded0$e2759c70$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ....The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. >...Ah, Spike, think about this a bit. Do you want elected people who may not know anything about public health making public health decisions?... >...You are an engineer. This is an engineering problem. >...I think finding and getting a solution tried and accepted is a lot more useful than worrying about relatively small distortions in the death records of counties. >...Keith _______________________________________________ Keith, a comment by BillK has been rattling around in my brain, and your comments add to my thinking. I asked BillK how Britain was handling all this, having been hit harder by covid than the USA (note that I am not criticizing Her Majesty the Queen with that observation (there was damn little she coulda done (because their international travel there is intense (even after the big annual Beatles memorabilia auction was canceled (they still have that big international money thing going on (which is why England is so rich (so Queen Elizabeth couldn't have done much to stop it really (still England is such an oddity (their queens are female there (but I digress.)))))) BillK commented that their towns and school headmasters could make their own rules, which sounded odd until I realized it makes sense. In any engineering site where stuff is being built where proles could be slain if it collapses, every lower level person on that site has the authority to raise a red flag. For instance, you mighta seen that epic fail that happened at Lockheed: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1783/was-the-noaa-n-prime-satellit e-really-dropped-on-the-floor Yes it really happened. I wasn't that guy standing to the left of the door is a friend of mine. There was universal agreement after the satellite hit the floor: Um... I don't think that was supposed to happen. After that unplanned event, a bunch of safety rules were changed, which empowered every person in that cleanroom, from the crane operator (who already had the authority) down thru guys like me, whose job it is to empty the waste baskets and scrape the gum off the floor. Any person who sees anything that can raise a red flag and stop everything until that person's concerns are met. We haven't dropped a single multi-million dollar satellite on the floor since then. After I read BillK's comment, I realized they have a system that is analogous to that in a way. Their headmasters are (I think) analogous to what we would call a principal (the person who makes the final call on-site on whether something is safe (who is herself often an older, perhaps wiser person (which means higher personal risk should she catch something.))) We are developing something similar here, for similar reasons: school principals dang well should have the authority to raise a red flag. Every school is different. In our town we have only one high school, and we have skerjillions of hard-charging Indian people cramming into local homes and apartments near the Tesla plant, eager to learn how to build electric cars, so India doesn't repeat China's mistakes (Indians are rather fond of breathing.) Result: we have an example of a high school which is so packed, we could go to double shifts and STILL not meet the social distancing requirements, never mind the fortunate few who get to break those rules. That is a case where a principal dang sure should be able to raise a red flag before the satellite comes crashing down like Dorothy's house on the Wicked Witch of the East (note: no actual feet were found sticking out from under the prematurely de-orbited satellite in the link above.) So England is right after all. That female queen still blows my mind, but hey, their country, their rules. spike spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 13:38:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:38:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002601d66b2d$b71d9d40$2558d7c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >>... Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled > commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or > campaigning, >...Thanks for the compliment. My actual thoughts on the current situation puts John in the shade. Worse, I understand the stone age origins of the situation even if I fail to pass that understanding to many on this list. (it is somewhat involved.)... Keith Keith you have not failed to pass understanding on evolutionary psychology. If you don't hear echos to your sonar pings, it is more likely because there is nearly universal agreement, and we don't know enough about that topic to contribute anything you haven't already thought circles around. I read you EP paper and found very little to question. We damn sure do have some kind of DNA-coded behaviors within which evolved under very different conditions, and some are hurting us, perhaps the most obvious one: the urge to squeeze out multible larvae onto a planet with already way too many of us crawling and writhing about. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 17:15:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <18609419-0AE1-4F25-971D-F053BB92C954@gmail.com> Most people don?t look at them. I think they exist to allow people a feeling of control via the illusion of being ?well informed?. SR Ballard > On Aug 4, 2020, at 10:23 AM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > When a government program retains massive funding and universal support despite it being literally impossible for it to fulfill its stated objectives, assume that the stated objectives are a lie and that it is fulfilling its /actual/ objectives perfectly. > > The actual objective of those state COVID dashboards is /not/ to empower a vast army of amateur citizen epidemiologists. That would be absurd and counterproductive. The state already has all the epidemiology expertise it needs on tap. > > The /actual/ objective of thos COVID dashboards is to make us afraid. > > And they are working perfectly for the overwhelming majority of the population. > > No problems here. Move along, citizen.. > >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 7:52 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >Everything is not political. >> >> Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 17:22:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:22:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next satellite, was: RE: next county Message-ID: <006e01d66b4c$fe225e00$fa671a00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...... you mighta seen that epic fail that happened at Lockheed: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1783/was-the-noaa-n-prime-satellit e-really-dropped-on-the-floor >...Yes it really happened...spike There was a fun aside to that whole premature de-orbit episode, also known by the acronym RUDE (Rapid Unplanned Disassembly Event) that occurred at Lockheed Sunnyvale in 2003. Some of it wasn't fun: four guys lost the hell outta their jobs: the bay supervisor, the project manager, at least two inspectors, all bad stuff, perhaps their worst day at work ever, worse than the time they lost 100 bucks in the March Madness basketball pool, but there was an educational aside to all of it. This was a weather satellite. I was not on that project (other than to design the interface bolts between the satellite and the ground-handling platform (kidding, bygones (I wasn't involved it NOAA at all (but I have friends who were (we space cases talk to each other a lot (dumping the satellite on the floor was what Orwell would say is double plus ungood (or the Ghost Busters would call "bad.")))))) Here's the kicker to all that. A normal prole would look at that photo and say we just lost a 290 million dollar satellite, but... we didn't. As crazy as it sounds, an abnormal prole such as a rocket scientist from Lockheed would point out there was surprisingly little damage. Not kidding this time. Read on please, space fans. When a satellite is in the bay, it has operational accelerometers all over it to witness everything that happens (the inspectors hafta view the data after it is buttoned up in the ride, then sign off that nothing scary happened to the bird during manufacture, transportation and loading onto the rocket.) So... the engineers knew how much shock the components saw during the RUDE. Then, they compared to the specification for each of the electronic boxes and discovered that nearly all of them were still qualified for launch! So... they took the electroncis off that wrecked bus, did a few functional tests, everything passed (because electronic boxes on a satellite are already deigned for high-G high shock launch environment) mounted them onto a spare bus we already had, did a few more functional tests, the program went right on, with only a schedule delay. One can imagine it was quite a shock to the dozen bunny-suited proles in the assembly bay at the time of the RUDE, but apparently that shock event was within spec, for no one perished from it as far as we know. Another fun aside: this accident coulda been a hell of a lot worse. It coulda fallen on some hapless prole. Well sure, but I mean even assuming no injury to the meat in the assembly bay, it still coulda been a lot worse. Reason: the solar panels and the control moment gyros were not installed at the time, as you can see from that forlorn image, none of which would have survived that RUDE. The gyros go on near the end of the assembly for that reason: those babies are relatively delicate, and they go underneath the solar panels on this particular bus. You just don't want those out where any yahoo can drop the satellite on the floor. So... Weird outcome: we lost the bus obviously, but we had a spare, in accordance with the well-known space-case philosophy: never buy one when you can buy two for only twice the price. We had a spare, the really expensive assemblies were salvaged and moved over, a coupla smaller black boxes were damaged beyond salvage (but we had spares for those too.) We took the nearly uninjured team off that bus and loaded em onto another, some of the biggest stars were not even aboard the bus when it crashed anyway, off they went to arrive at the game only slightly late. After this event, the NOAA N' was considered perfectly safe: we already knew it couldn't suffer a similar fate again, just by the law of averages: the chances of the same satellite being dumped on the floor twice are so small as to be negligible. Happy ending kinda: the program ran into unexpected costs because of the accident (space projects do that) but it was repaired eventually launched in 2009, not all that far behind schedule. NOAA N' had a design-life of 2 years, but if you are a hurricane tracker on the US east coast today, the data you are getting is being partly supplied by this pre-disastered bird. NOAA N' is still flying and still fully operational, handing down life-saving data to this day, more than 11 yrs later, and 18 yrs after that embarrassing RUDE. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 5 17:41:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:41:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2020 21:35, bill w wrote: > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not > evidence. > Ben Zaiboc > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable > esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly > be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal > evidence should be ignored.? ?Extremes or things thought to be > impossible for sure. I'm not saying it should be ignored. I'm saying 'further research is needed'. I should have said "reliable evidence", I suppose. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 19:29:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:29:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just > answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >> you?* > > > Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If > astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would > slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and > village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the > situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how > to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive > ability leading the effort. > > >> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* > > > No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the > USA. > > *> Why?* > > > Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this > list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every > epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire > scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they > say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a > month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but > currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 19:47:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:47:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and under 60. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Please respond to this email if you agree with John: > > every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the > entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad > as they say, John > > bill w > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >> >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>> you?* >> >> >> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >> ability leading the effort. >> >> >>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >> >> >> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >> USA. >> >> *> Why?* >> >> >> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this >> list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every >> epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire >> scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they >> say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a >> month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but >> currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:10:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:10:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not > agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general > doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and > that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is > extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse > than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and > under 60. > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Please respond to this email if you agree with John: >> >> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >> as they say, John >> >> bill w >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >>> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>>> you?* >>> >>> >>> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >>> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >>> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >>> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >>> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >>> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >>> ability leading the effort. >>> >>> >>>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >>> >>> >>> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >>> USA. >>> >>> *> Why?* >>> >>> >>> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this >>> list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every >>> epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire >>> scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they >>> say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a >>> month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but >>> currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:25:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:25:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Tough question, but it's easy for me to say I don't believe we should do this with the flu! If we did, I'm relatively confident there would be no economy left to speak of. Some level of risk is unavoidable in living a life including driving a car, getting on a train or plane, etc. We can't stay in our boltholes 24/7. I would certainly not have knowingly put a policy into place like Cuomo (and others) did that ensured a large number of deaths in nursing homes where it spread like wildfire. It was known very early on how the demographics skew in terms of age and death. This policy is directly responsible for a very significant percentage of the deaths in NY. I'm in favor of frequent handwashing, social distancing/minimizing large scale gatherings, and potentially masks although I am very skeptical of cloth ones in terms of efficacy. I'm not in favor of keeping schools closed in areas that are not current hotspots, or state governments arbitrarily deciding which businesses can stay open and which ones need to be closed. I think we should do what we can to help protect elderly and at risk populations, but there is no way we can keep everything locked down depending on a vaccine to arrive (that might never be effective) based on the low IFR for the majority of the working population. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:11 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the > flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances > economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if > we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not >> agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general >> doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and >> that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is >> extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse >> than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and >> under 60. >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Please respond to this email if you agree with John: >>> >>> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >>> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >>> as they say, John >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >>>> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>>>> you?* >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >>>> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >>>> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >>>> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >>>> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >>>> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >>>> ability leading the effort. >>>> >>>> >>>>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >>>> >>>> >>>> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >>>> USA. >>>> >>>> *> Why?* >>>> >>>> >>>> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on >>>> this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, >>>> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >>>> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >>>> as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change >>>> in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, >>>> but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:30:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:30:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu > from a fatality rate standpoint* The COVID-19 fatality rate is not much worse than the garden-variety non-1918 flu, but it can still kill far more people because its infection rate is much higher; the number of Americans who have become infected with COVID-19 has jumper from 15 people on February 15 to 4,950,144 people today August 4, an increase of 54,504 infections just since yesterday. With just 4% of the world's population the USA now has 26.25% of all the COVID-19 infections in the entire world. Anyone who does not find that rate of growth terrifying does not understand the situation. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 20:45:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:45:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as ours are. The caveat right there on the page warns us this isn?t great data. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:50:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:50:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know that your assertion on current R0s for CV-19 compared to the flu is accurate. I will acknowledge that it is not the same R0 as if we did absolutely nothing, but even in hotspots, it is not extremely high with social distancing/large gathering bans implemented. See the current breakdown by state: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1119412/covid-19-transmission-rate-us-by-state/ RT live is another site that attempts to track Rt as close to real time as possible: https://rt.live/ On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:32 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu >> from a fatality rate standpoint* > > > The COVID-19 fatality rate is not much worse than the garden-variety > non-1918 flu, but it can still kill far more people because its infection > rate is much higher; the number of Americans who have become infected with > COVID-19 has jumper from 15 people on February 15 to 4,950,144 people today > August 4, an increase of 54,504 infections just since yesterday. With just > 4% of the world's population the USA now has 26.25% of all the COVID-19 > infections in the entire world. Anyone who does not find that rate of > growth terrifying does not understand the situation. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 20:56:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:56:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w The uncertainty in the covid death rate is one thing, but the uncertainty in the numbers who caught covid and recovered without incident, or who never knew they had it is even greater. Along with uncertainty in mortality rate we have still more uncertainty in how much damage this has done to the world economy. In my opinion, we need to focus on coming up with a realistic model for how much this shutdown is harming people. I have a tendency to underestimate this for I am a solitary old turd: not really a socialist at all. I get along fine with people but isolation doesn?t bother me much. However? I have friends who are going crazy from loneliness. I have friends whose lives are spinning out of control because their businesses are failing or their jobs are going away and they have no idea what they are going to do or where they will go. I am retired, so I have it easy. My bride?s job was declared essential and on she goes. My son is prospering under remote learning. So I am a fortunate exception. But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. spike On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and under 60. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would you? Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive ability leading the effort. > Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you? No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the USA. > Why? Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. John K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 5 21:03:47 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:03:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21fb6830-7409-4bb9-0bee-d302ac37599e@zaiboc.net> On 05/08/2020 21:10, Keith Henson wrote: > Ben Zaiboc woote > > snip > >> My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in > the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. > > I think it is completely obvious. Oliver Sacks reported decades ago > on a woman musician who had a stroke in the area directly opposite her > speech area and completely lost all her music skills (but nothing > else). So we know where music is located in the brain. The origin > was our obviously strongly selected speech abilities. Bilateral > symmetry gave the brain an area that could control speech but was not > used for that and was available for something else, music. > > There has probably been evolutionary selection to make humans better > singers, but these two factors are enough to account for the origin of > music in humans, a side effect of speech and bilateral symmetry. OK, that makes sense as far as singing (pitch) is concerned, but what about rhythm? I'd say that rhythm is fundamental to music, indispensable, whereas pitch is secondary and not even necessary. Drumming can stand alone, and is possibly more ancient than singing. We don't groove to the tune, it's the beat that's the thing that gets us going. Any explanations for that? (I don't buy the pre-natal hearbeat idea. All mammals hear their mother's heartbeat when they're foetuses, but it only seems to be humans that move their bodies in time when they hear a regular beat). Speech can have a rhythm, but it mostly doesn't, so I don't think that's it. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:11:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:11:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:53 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I don't know that your assertion on current R0s for CV-19 compared to > the flu is accurate. **I will acknowledge that it is not the same R0 as > if we did absolutely nothing, but even in hotspots, it is not extremely > high with social distancing/large gathering bans implemented.* > And social distancing and even simple facemask usage is exactly what some politicians, but certainly not any expert epidemiologists, want to stop because they think projecting an image of normalcy will help them in the November election. And things don't look normal if everybody is wearing facemasks and are standing 6 feet apart. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:20:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:20:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same > dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as > ours are.* Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 21:51:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:51:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c101d66b72$8a9d0b80$9fd72280$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as ours are. >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? John K Clark John I would urge them to carry up the caveats on the data from the level at which it is collected to the top level where it is reported. Make sure every dataset where comparisons are made clearly state there are uncertainties in the data based on where it is collected. The rates and ratios are given in nice crisp three digit precision, when some jurisdictions may be incentivized to undercount or overcount their rates for political or financial reasons. So? have them estimate the error range. Stop reporting three digits of precision when we are lucky if we can pick off one digit. We must recognize that decisions are being made, students are failing, careers are being ruined, businesses are dying based on a presumed certainty in data which is unjustifiable. The picture may be vaguely right, but don?t throw away the uncertainty bars on the data. This part is not abstract or philosophy: If businesses die, government dies, then we die. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:49:01 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:49:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Back off man, I'm a scientist" wasn't persuasive when Bill Murray said it, and isn't impressive now. Magick rituals where you wave a Phd diploma over a stack of garbage data may impress the journalists and the partisans, but they don't suddenly repeal the iron law of GIGO. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The public health officials and entire scientific community has the >> same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky >> as ours are.* > > > Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a > matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to > tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do > their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 22:06:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:06:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job? John K Clark I don?t know if I answered your question John. I don?t need to tell epidemiologists and statisticians how to do their jobs, for they already know: never throw away uncertainty caveats in data. I do urge that every site reporting covid fatalities carry the caveat offered at the collection level: these are patients who died WITH Covid-19 but not necessarily die OF Covid-19. So, just carry the caveat all the way up in these terms: Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. Statisticians know to do this. Engineers and scientists know to do this. Doctors know to do this. They don?t need me to tell them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 22:43:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:43:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: 'The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.' Daniel Boorstin bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 22:48:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:48:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66. com> Message-ID: <012401d66b7a$7d11f7c0$7735e740$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?So, just carry the caveat all the way up in these terms: >?Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. >?Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. Statisticians know to do this?spike Now this is interesting. The most critical number to me isn?t what is happening in UK or Belgium or Los Angeles, the most critical numbers I need to know are the ones for Santa Clara County, which is where public school decisions are being made. So I go to their site, which has new caveats that showed up today, such as this one, in bold red font: Due to a significant and unresolved problem with the State of California?s CalREDIE reporting system, the County of Santa Clara Public Health Department, as well as county public health departments statewide, are experiencing significant underreporting of COVID-19 testing results. Because of this problem, the information presented in this dashboard/these dashboards since mid-July 2020 is incomplete. We will provide updates on the status of these reporting delays as soon as they are available. Additional information about these delays may be available from the State of California. OK well, that?s good to know: the new case rate might be under-reported. Unlike the California state site, Santa Clara County (and all the neighboring counties) carry this caveat: Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the individuals died from COVID-19. OK that too is good to know: we have deaths mixed with Covid-19 deaths in the database. https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx The graph itself is now labeled: New and Cumulative Deaths by Date of Death. The graph itself does not actually say covid-19 deaths, merely ?new and cumulative deaths by date of death.? Above the graph is a dashboard where it does specify the number as ?Cumulative COVID-19 Deaths?. It does not say OF or WITH on the most visible part of the dashboard. It sure looks self-contradictory to me. Conclusion: we have a junky dataset here, it is feeding up to the California state level where they throw away the caveats, and the local authorities are using suspect data to decide the fate of our schools. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 22:50:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:50:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The virus has quite a few effects on the body. Isn't it probable that a person dying of something else would not have died if he didn't have the virus? That means the combination killed him, not just the virus and not just whatever he had. In other words, perhaps the immune system was overloaded. bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a > matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to > tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do > their job? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > I don?t know if I answered your question John. I don?t need to tell > epidemiologists and statisticians how to do their jobs, for they already > know: never throw away uncertainty caveats in data. > > > > I do urge that every site reporting covid fatalities carry the caveat > offered at the collection level: these are patients who died WITH Covid-19 > but not necessarily die OF Covid-19. So, just carry the caveat all the way > up in these terms: > > > > Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. > > > > Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. > Statisticians know to do this. Engineers and scientists know to do this. > Doctors know to do this. They don?t need me to tell them. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 23:25:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:25:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66. com> Message-ID: <018a01d66b7f$adc53710$094fa530$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?The virus has quite a few effects on the body. Isn't it probable that a person dying of something else would not have died if he didn't have the virus? That means the combination killed him, not just the virus and not just whatever he had. In other words, perhaps the immune system was overloaded. bill w Good question BilllW. There was a very consequential fatality on 25 May where the patient had covid-19, heart disease, arteriosclerosis, detectable levels of methamphetamines and cannabinoids, a lethal level of fentanyl and a cop?s knee on his neck a the time of death. Good chance his diseased heart was overloaded by all this. He died with covid-19 but not necessarily of covid-19. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Aug 5 23:56:14 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 16:56:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ --------- "The techniques that most of us use to navigate most of our decisions in life ? gathering information, evaluating it based on what we know, and choosing a course of action ? can lead to spectacular failures when it comes to a scientific matter. The reason is simple: most of us, even those of us who are scientists ourselves, lack the relevant scientific expertise needed to adequately evaluate that research on our own. In our own fields, we are aware of the full suite of data, of how those puzzle pieces fit together, and what the frontiers of our knowledge is." -------- Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other fields is ludicrous. Then he cites problems with climatology and COVID-19 as justifications which immediately shows his hand as making a political rather than logical argument. There is always a risk of spectacular failure in science regardless if a scientist works outside or inside his field. One could even make a case that science is built on failures and accidental discoveries. The failure of a new heart medication turns out to treat erectile dysfunction or a failure of microbiologist's sterile technique leads to the discovery of penicillin. In fact I would venture to say that when scientists in different fields cross-pollinate ideas and collaborate with one another, science is on a firmer footing. For example if climatologists would collaborate with economists and nuclear physicists and come up with economically feasible solutions to anthropogenic climate change maybe somebody other than socialists would take them seriously. And maybe if epidemiologists had consulted microbiologists, they would have had more realistic models and policy recommendations. I have heard it said that becoming an expert involves learning more and more about less and less until in the limit, one knows everything about nothing. Imagine how much poorer science would be if Louis Pasteur, whom Siegel would advise to stick to chemistry, did not color outside the lines of his field to give us germ theory and vaccination against rabies. Given all the evidence, I must conclude that Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining on matters not astrophysical in nature, is an elitist snob and idealogical stooge of the left. Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 00:32:14 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:32:14 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 09:57, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > > > > https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ > --------- > "The techniques that most of us use to navigate most of our decisions > in life ? gathering information, evaluating it based on what we know, > and choosing a course of action ? can lead to spectacular failures > when it comes to a scientific matter. > > The reason is simple: most of us, even those of us who are scientists > ourselves, lack the relevant scientific expertise needed to adequately > evaluate that research on our own. In our own fields, we are aware of > the full suite of data, of how those puzzle pieces fit together, and > what the frontiers of our knowledge is." > -------- > > Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on > behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in > their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions > in other fields is ludicrous. Then he cites problems with climatology > and COVID-19 as justifications which immediately shows his hand as > making a political rather than logical argument. There is always a > risk of spectacular failure in science regardless if a scientist works > outside or inside his field. > > One could even make a case that science is built on failures and > accidental discoveries. The failure of a new heart medication turns > out to treat erectile dysfunction or a failure of microbiologist's > sterile technique leads to the discovery of penicillin. In fact I > would venture to say that when scientists in different fields > cross-pollinate ideas and collaborate with one another, science is on > a firmer footing. > > For example if climatologists would collaborate with economists and > nuclear physicists and come up with economically feasible solutions > to anthropogenic climate change maybe somebody other than socialists > would take them seriously. And maybe if epidemiologists had consulted > microbiologists, they would have had more realistic models and policy > recommendations. > > I have heard it said that becoming an expert involves learning more > and more about less and less until in the limit, one knows everything > about nothing. Imagine how much poorer science would be if Louis > Pasteur, whom Siegel would advise to stick to chemistry, did not color > outside the lines of his field to give us germ theory and vaccination > against rabies. > > Given all the evidence, I must conclude that Siegal, aside from the > hypocrisy of opining on matters not astrophysical in nature, is an > elitist snob and idealogical stooge of the left. Whatever else you might say about the article, I didn?t see anything in it implying alignment with the political left, right or centre. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 02:18:04 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:18:04 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the > flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances > economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if > we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w > > > > > > The uncertainty in the covid death rate is one thing, but the uncertainty > in the numbers who caught covid and recovered without incident, or who > never knew they had it is even greater. Along with uncertainty in > mortality rate we have still more uncertainty in how much damage this has > done to the world economy. > > > > In my opinion, we need to focus on coming up with a realistic model for > how much this shutdown is harming people. I have a tendency to > underestimate this for I am a solitary old turd: not really a socialist at > all. I get along fine with people but isolation doesn?t bother me much. > However? I have friends who are going crazy from loneliness. I have > friends whose lives are spinning out of control because their businesses > are failing or their jobs are going away and they have no idea what they > are going to do or where they will go. > > > > I am retired, so I have it easy. My bride?s job was declared essential > and on she goes. My son is prospering under remote learning. So I am a > fortunate exception. > > > > But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a > crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, > it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or > if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the > way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. > The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an economic crisis, and perhaps an even bigger one. The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering faster. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 03:57:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:57:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880 $a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?It really is a crisis only. >?The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an economic crisis? Stathis, I don?t know how it works in Australia, but in the states, there is no level of government, federal, state, county, city or neighborhood association, which has the authority to order businesses to stay open. That order would be a no-op. >? there would still be an economic crisis and perhaps an even bigger one? A no-op cannot cause a bigger one. >?The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering faster. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, so we hear. Of course, there is an unstated caveat on the data in at least one country, where deaths with covid are being mixed with deaths of covid. So in that one country, the data is suspect. If we argue that China and North Korea managed to stop the virus, that still doesn?t help us in the USA, because there is no level of government with the level of power those outfits have. In the states, government cannot get that power unless they declare martial law. This they have not done. I suspect they will never do that in response to a disease. Martial law was not designed for that purpose. If millions were dropping dead with or of covid every day, declaring martial law is still is a dubious use of war powers act. That being said, the mortality rate with or of covid in the USA is apparently dropping, but as a fun little exercise for internet search jockeys, do go into Google or your favorite search engine and see for yourself how difficult it is to find a graph of covid deaths per day in the USA. It is possible to find individual states which will report fatalities per day, but no source wants to collect all of it, combine it and report covid fatalities per day in USA on a graph, because it requires combining a bunch of datasets of unknown quality, which means a resulting combined dataset of unknown quality. No one wants to put their name or their institution?s name on that. The closest I have found is Our World in Data, which shows a graph but carries a caveat: ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death means that the number of confirmed deaths may not be an accurate count of the true number of deaths from COVID-19. It also puts a logarithmic scale on the vertical which obscures numbers and covers uncertainties. Ok, cool we have the terms WITH and OF. I have heard our CDC saying they counted the WITHs together with the OFs. Last week we heard the director of our CDC testify in front of congress that in general the Withs are still being counted with the Ofs, and there is an economic incentive to do so. This site introduces a third term FROM. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/confirmed-covid-19-deaths-total-vs-daily I vaguely interpret FROM is equivalent to OF. FROM sounds more OFey than it does WITHey. They offer that it may not be an accurate count, but there too, the title of the graph kinda disagrees with the caveat, for the title of the graph introduces yet another term: ?due to.? Their graph title is Daily vs total confirmed deaths due to COVID-19. Then they explain in the subtitle the count may not be accurate because of ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death.? Well OK. I agree that it is challenging. I do genealogy and I study causes of death on death certificates. They don?t always know what slew the prole. In any case, I feel better seeing that the data-jockeys acknowledge this is a best guess. In any case, do search around the web, see if you can find a dataset of US fatalities per day, either OF, WITH, FROM, DUE TO, VAGUELY RELATED, or WAVING ACQUAINTANCES OF SOMEONE WHO HAD Covid-19. Please share it with me if you find it. What I am looking for is a graph that looks like this, but for the USA: Now that I am inquiring, Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 04:35:01 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:35:01 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 13:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?It really is a crisis only. > > > > >?The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people > reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED > businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an > economic crisis? > > > > > > Stathis, I don?t know how it works in Australia, but in the states, there > is no level of government, federal, state, county, city or neighborhood > association, which has the authority to order businesses to stay open. > Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem. If the problem were less serious than has been stated, it would quickly become obvious that the countries where there were no restrictions were doing better, and everyone would follow. After all, the immediate reaction of almost everyone on first learning of the virus, from the officials in Wuhan to Donald Trump, was to ignore it and hope that it would go away. That order would be a no-op. > > > > >? there would still be an economic crisis and perhaps an even bigger one? > > > > A no-op cannot cause a bigger one. > > > > >?The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those > countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering > faster. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > Ja, so we hear. > > > > Of course, there is an unstated caveat on the data in at least one > country, where deaths with covid are being mixed with deaths of covid. So > in that one country, the data is suspect. > > > > If we argue that China and North Korea managed to stop the virus, that > still doesn?t help us in the USA, because there is no level of government > with the level of power those outfits have. In the states, government > cannot get that power unless they declare martial law. This they have not > done. I suspect they will never do that in response to a disease. Martial > law was not designed for that purpose. > > > > If millions were dropping dead with or of covid every day, declaring > martial law is still is a dubious use of war powers act. > > > > That being said, the mortality rate with or of covid in the USA is > apparently dropping, but as a fun little exercise for internet search > jockeys, do go into Google or your favorite search engine and see for > yourself how difficult it is to find a graph of covid deaths per day in the > USA. > > > > It is possible to find individual states which will report fatalities per > day, but no source wants to collect all of it, combine it and report covid > fatalities per day in USA on a graph, because it requires combining a bunch > of datasets of unknown quality, which means a resulting combined dataset of > unknown quality. No one wants to put their name or their institution?s > name on that. The closest I have found is Our World in Data, which shows a > graph but carries a caveat: > > > > ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death means that the number > of confirmed deaths may not be an accurate count of the true number of > deaths from COVID-19. > > > > It also puts a logarithmic scale on the vertical which obscures numbers > and covers uncertainties. > > > > Ok, cool we have the terms WITH and OF. I have heard our CDC saying they > counted the WITHs together with the OFs. Last week we heard the director > of our CDC testify in front of congress that in general the Withs are still > being counted with the Ofs, and there is an economic incentive to do so. > > > > This site introduces a third term FROM. > > > > https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/confirmed-covid-19-deaths-total-vs-daily > > > > I vaguely interpret FROM is equivalent to OF. FROM sounds more OFey than > it does WITHey. > > > > They offer that it may not be an accurate count, but there too, the title > of the graph kinda disagrees with the caveat, for the title of the graph > introduces yet another term: ?due to.? Their graph title is Daily vs total > confirmed deaths due to COVID-19. Then they explain in the subtitle the > count may not be accurate because of ?challenges in the attribution of the > cause of death.? > > > > Well OK. I agree that it is challenging. I do genealogy and I study > causes of death on death certificates. They don?t always know what slew > the prole. In any case, I feel better seeing that the data-jockeys > acknowledge this is a best guess. > > > > In any case, do search around the web, see if you can find a dataset of US > fatalities per day, either OF, WITH, FROM, DUE TO, VAGUELY RELATED, or > WAVING ACQUAINTANCES OF SOMEONE WHO HAD Covid-19. Please share it with me > if you find it. > > > > What I am looking for is a graph that looks like this, but for the USA: > > > > > > Now that I am inquiring, Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities > with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish > between the WITHs and the OFs? How? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 04:54:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:54:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 04:59:29 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:59:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next satellite, was: RE: next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > Another fun aside: this accident coulda been a hell of a lot worse. It coulda fallen on some hapless prole. It would have reduced the shock of the satellite hitting the floor--slightly. :-) That's really some story, kind of thing to pass on to kids, especially how they recovered. I am reminded of the first day I was working at the Electro-Motive Division of GN, perhaps around 1974. The coordinate measuring machine (CMM) was in an air-conditioned room to the side of a machine bay which was perhaps 200 feet across. The first time I am in the room, one wall (a wide garage door installed upside down) rolls down and the roof rolls back. A gantry crane goes hoot-hoot and a 20,000 pound freshly machined engine block sails into the room. It was gently sat on the 22-foot long CMM table and I backed up to one of the walls as far as I could go. In a strained voice, I asked the guy who ran the CMM if they ever dropped one. He pointed to a divot in the 2-foot thick granite table about the size of a large dinner plate and said "Yep." The divot had been filled with some hard yellow patching compound and ground flat. Because there was only one, I figured they didn't drop engine blocks or traction motors very often. It was a strange place to work. The square mile shop was built in the late 1930s. The floor was wooden blocks set end grain up. This protected dropped parts from being damaged. Right outside the CMM room, there was a huge turntable where an engine block could be loaded and unloaded while a block was being machined. The third station held the machines that drilled out the cylinder bores and did the other machining. The CMM was there largely to be sure this machine was making engine blocks and not junk. I was there a few times a year over three years or so. Getting in or out to the CMM room I walked by the exhaust valve line. Never saw it running. I think it made a year's supply of valves in an hour or two. It was perhaps 100 feet long. It took segments of high-temperature steel and forged them into a valve shape, It then sheared off about 5-inch pieces of 5/8 inch rod, chucked both the valve end and the rod and friction welded them. The final step was to grind off the flash from the friction weld. The two-stroke engines used 4 valves per cylinder. The engines were made from 8 cylinders (which looked like a way oversized car engine up to 20 cylinder monsters that were mostly for marine use. The 20 cylinder version just barely fit on the CMM table. The engines were weldments rather than castings. I never got to the welding shop where they made 2 inch deep welds with 5/8th welding rod. People who talked about it usually referred to Dante's Inferno. There is plenty of data about these engines here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_645 And I could say more, for example about the 50kW CO2 laser they used to harden the inside of the cylinder bores. But this is enough for one day. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 05:44:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:44:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] next county > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? I found this site with some data, but it doesn?t say how or if it differentiates between the Withs and the Ofs: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries I notice their graphs are free of caveats and explanations of methods. Better than nothing I suppose: Stefan Lofven of Sweden was one who ignored the problem and hoped it would go away. It did: Sweden did almost nothing. How is Scott Morrison handling the crisis? Are Australian schools open now? Stathis, does the Australian government have the authority to make people stay home? If they don?t, what happens? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35607 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28172 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 05:45:56 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:45:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: > snip > OK, that makes sense as far as singing (pitch) is concerned, but what about rhythm? I'd say that rhythm is fundamental to music, indispensable, whereas pitch is secondary and not even necessary. Drumming can stand alone, and is possibly more ancient than singing. Very likely. Chimps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. Bonobos drum as well. https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 06:31:51 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:31:51 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 15:46, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] next county > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the > government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not > have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis > > > > > > Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) > Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? > How? > > I found this site with some data, but it doesn?t say how or if it > differentiates between the Withs and the Ofs: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries > > I notice their graphs are free of caveats and explanations of methods. > Better than nothing I suppose: > > > > > > Stefan Lofven of Sweden was one who ignored the problem and hoped it would > go away. It did: > > > > Sweden did almost nothing. > > How is Scott Morrison handling the crisis? Are Australian schools open > now? > > Stathis, does the Australian government have the authority to make people > stay home? If they don?t, what happens? > > spike > Unfortunately, Australia had almost eliminated the virus a couple of months ago, when it took off again in one state (Victoria), and now there are hundreds of cases a day. Everything was returning to normal with businesses, schools and so on but now the restrictions in Victoria are back, with fines for not wearing a mask or being more than 5km from your home without an excuse (such as being an essential worker). The other states have also closed their borders to stop Victorians travelling there. As far as I know, deaths are counted according to what the doctor puts on the death certificate. It is sometimes difficult without an autopsy to be sure what someone with multiple comorbidities has died of, but if COVID-19 is the final illness, that is what is put on the death certificate. If someone is hit by a car and they suffer from other conditions, they are more likely to die than a healthy person with the same injuries, but it is still the car that is said to have killed them. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 09:53:58 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:53:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted Message-ID: Thousands of England's virus deaths 'to be wiped off records due to counting mishap' Quote: Public Health England currently counts all deaths of people who have tested positive for Covid-19, meaning up to 10 per cent of those recorded could be wrong By Ryan Merrifield 06:48, 6 AUG 2020 Public Health England currently includes all fatalities of anyone who has tested positive for Covid-19, regardless of whether their death is related to the disease. Scientists noticed the error as early as July, leading to an urgent review, with some deaths on the official count happening months after someone was infected. The mishap means all of England's 265,000 confirmed cases would in time be included on the toll, regardless of the circumstances around someone's death. The numbers will be reconfigured so deaths are only counted if a person dies within 28 days of testing positive - like in Scotland and Northern Ireland. -------------------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 13:40:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 06:40:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001d66bf7$3748cb60$a5da6220$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted Thousands of England's virus deaths 'to be wiped off records due to counting mishap' https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-englands-virus-deaths-to-224 77213 Quote: Public Health England currently counts all deaths of people who have tested positive for Covid-19, meaning up to 10 per cent of those recorded could be wrong By Ryan Merrifield 06:48, 6 AUG 2020 Public Health England currently includes all fatalities of anyone who has tested positive for Covid-19, regardless of whether their death is related to the disease. Scientists noticed the error as early as July, leading to an urgent review, with some deaths on the official count happening months after someone was infected. The mishap means all of England's 265,000 confirmed cases would in time be included on the toll, regardless of the circumstances around someone's death. The numbers will be reconfigured so deaths are only counted if a person dies within 28 days of testing positive - like in Scotland and Northern Ireland. -------------------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK. Hmmm, 10%, that's the first time I have seen either a limit or an estimate on that number. In the USA, they acknowledge they count positive tests as covid deaths, with no 28 day limit. Over time, the count of those who were infected and recovered accumulates, particularly the aged, who we know this hits really hard. The Mirror article calls it a "mistake" and a "mishap" but they aren't treating it as either of those here, and are apparently still doing it at least in some counties in California. Next thing we need to know is how Sweden did it. UK and USA counted the Withs with the Ofs. UK is planning to stop, USA is not. Sweden never shut down anything, their numbers went down to nothing. What we don't know is if they are counting their Withs with their Nots. The Ofs are hard to prove, and the Withs are easy to determine: nearly everyone has a With to go along with their covid. So how does it work? I have occasional erectile dysfunction, which one might suppose could be fatal if one shoots oneself over it or perishes of an overdoses of Viagra (don't worry, I wont) and mighta had covid last winter (if so, I still have the antibodies.) If I perish of embarrassment in the USA, I test positive, died With covid and get counted. If I die of actual covid while touring the ABBA museum in Sweden, I died of embarrassment and don't count? Let's take that 10% number for a minute. If it is true, then we don't care really: the numbers are accurate enough for what we are doing. But how do we know the delta is 10%? If that number is true, it brings up another scary possibility: the USA and most other countries wrecked their economies by shutting stuff down, but are still having covid fatalities. Sweden didn't and they don't. They have an attitude there: we are Sweden, home of the mighty Vikings, way the hell up here where winters are brutal, people are indoors a coupla months every year, we have an international airport bringing in everything, diseased proles from everywhere on the planet come to devour the meatballs and see the ABBA museum, we have a lotta flu up here, we deal with it, for we are SWEDISH, dammit! The flu doesn't stop our Volvo factory! Their problem was big in April and May, but isn't now. If that 10% number is right, we need to rethink our approach. Anders or any Swedes present? Or anyone here up to speed on this? Vacationed there recently? Volvo drivers? ABBA fans? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:14:27 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:14:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a > crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, > it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or > if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the > way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. > I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future as a result. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:32:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:32:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf > of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own > research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other > fields is ludicrous.* I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own research and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally reproduce every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an astronomer's 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to determine the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an astronomer reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different fields how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm thinking of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about 20 million; and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who are mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and that vitamin C could cure just about everything. If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. So if the consensus of the entire scientific community is that COVID-19 is killing thousands of Americans a day, and it is, then it is logical for me to conclude that what they're saying is true, or at least closer to the truth than what anybody else is saying. >* I must conclude that **Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining on > matters not astrophysical in nature, **is an elitist snob and idealogical > stooge of the left.* And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges of the right. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:34:52 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:34:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 10:16 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity > we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to > do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote > work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the > disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is > making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end > result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future > as a result. > I don't have much else to add, but needed to reply to "+1" this sentiment. I wish people could stop trying to "go back to work" and figure out how we can "go forward to work" - but as succinct as it seems, inertia is very difficult to overcome. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:42:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:42:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges of the right. John K Clark Right on, Daddio, as someone used to say. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:34 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > > *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak >> on behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay >> in their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions >> in other fields is ludicrous.* > > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own > research and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally > reproduce every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they > say is probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an > astronomer's 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes > to determine the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine > an astronomer reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to > determine the expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. > > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different > fields how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm > thinking of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they > got it all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only > about 20 million; and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists > they got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who > are mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. > > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. So if the > consensus of the entire scientific community is that COVID-19 is killing > thousands of Americans a day, and it is, then it is logical for me to > conclude that what they're saying is true, or at least closer to the truth > than what anybody else is saying. > > >* I must conclude that **Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining >> on matters not astrophysical in nature, **is an elitist snob and >> idealogical stooge of the left.* > > > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 15:02:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:02:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880 $a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008301d66c02$a4dc6550$ee952ff0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a crisis? >?I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future as a result. -Dave Ja, so we hear. I have been trying to see it that way, but it takes effort, and must be done very carefully. From the point of view of those who do not like those changes, it sounds like we celebrate death. I will freely confess the online learning has been great for my family. It has forced colleges to offer the option of online classes, which is great from the point of view of those who would otherwise need to pay for on-campus learning or who would like to attend somewhere like Berkeley but do not consider it safe to go to the campus. Berkeley offers a great education for a good price, but you might get killed there by some drug-addled anarchist. So? OK, take the classes online, get great credentials with the California taxpayer subsidizing most of the tuition, stay home, stay safe. Such a deal! >From the point of view of those who cannot effectively use online learning, or who crave social contact, the online learning is a still darker lining to a dark cloud, a double tragedy. The covid quarantine compelled Berkeley to go down that road of online learning, however? I never want to make it sound like a silver lining to a dark cloud. It is a consequence of a tragedy which? well? does benefit some people. Eh? it?s a paradox. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 15:12:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:12:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. > *Right on, Daddio, as someone used to say. bill w* > > Don't be a square, make love not war. By the way I just ran across an interesting statistic, during the past month 1.9 million Americans have tested positive for COVID-19, that's *OVER FIVE TIMES* as much as *ALL* of Europe and Australia and Canada and South Korea and Japan *COMBINED*! Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny bit wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 15:28:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:28:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny bit wrong. John K Clark Ja. Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance: Oh wait, we already are. There are four counties up in northern California who never did shut down much of the businesses. Those four counties have had a few hundred cases, but never had a covid fatality. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:32:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:32:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance* Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries. Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 18:36:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:36:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. What do you think? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 18:39:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:39:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Do your own research On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance >?Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries? Or just compare them against each other. Sweden is the world?s mine canary, having never shut stuff down. >? Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. John K Clark OK. Sweden was doing something seriously wrong in March and April, but in May, June, July and August, things went well for them: Sweden is doing better than New York and Texas with their aggressive shutdowns, and way better than California with its mixed approach. Looking up there at Sweden, who didn?t ever go the shutdown route, we next might need to look at business failure rates, suicide rates and school scores to figure out the cost in human lives of a shutdown. Given Sweden somehow managed to bring this to the ground without a shutdown, could this be what herd immunity looks like? What if? these Nordic countries just have a higher natural resistance to flu? If so, that would make sense: they are cooped up indoors for a long time in the winter, they go outside a lot in the summer, we have good indications the risk of outdoor transmission is comparatively low because the political rallies, rock concerts and protest riots didn?t show a lot of transmission. So? is that Sweden signal indicating Stefan was right and that eventually herd immunity is the way? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31146 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 6 18:56:27 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:56:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. -Henry > On Aug 6, 2020, at 2:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 18:58:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] for Henry Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. What do you think? bill w BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, high openness. Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both. Here in California we are constantly urged to wear masks, and I see nearly half the proles doing so, outdoors. Indoors at a business it is required: the store owner can throw one?s ass out for not doing it. So that one doesn?t really count. But I have seen extremists, still see them: wearing a mask while driving alone. That should be discouraged methinks: the increase in CO2 while driving is a bad thing. Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that isn?t what that is either. Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. Do reframe your Hexaco question please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 6 19:12:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:12:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32a1f6eb-c480-7ef2-3e3a-72356bd86e39@zaiboc.net> On 06/08/2020 07:33, Keith Henson wrote: > himps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the > common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. > Bonobos drum as well. > https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm > > Keith Aha. So some chimps, at least, appear to have a similar sense of rhythm to us. It would be interesting to try and trace that to wherever it comes from. An earlier, pre-speech, brain mutation, presumably. If and when we master uploading, and can tinker with detailed models of brains from the inside, perhaps we'll be able to find out exactly what it's all about. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 6 19:17:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:17:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1084567b-24a3-de45-1c9b-d6f74f805161@zaiboc.net> On 06/08/2020 07:33, Keith Henson wrote: > himps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the > common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. > Bonobos drum as well. > https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm > > Keith Aha. So some chimps, at least, appear to have a similar sense of rhythm to us. It would be interesting to try and trace that to wherever it comes from. An earlier, pre-speech, brain mutation. If and when we have mastered uploading, and can tinker with detailed models of brains from the inside, perhaps we'll be able to find out exactly where it comes from. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 19:24:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:24:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d66c27$3a9c6260$afd52720$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] for Henry >?From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both?spike This way, we can all accuse each other of being anti-science for not accepting the scientific consensus. On masks outdoors, there are three general camps or schools of thought on the efficacy of outdoor masks. I call them the Yes School, the No School and the We Don?t Know School. All three of these have internal consensus, for they generally agree with themselves. So regardless of one?s views, you still generally reject the scientific consensus of the other two camps. It is possible to be in two schools of thought, so long as one of them is the We Don?t Know group. I believe that outdoor masks are bad, because they encourage proles to come closer for intercourse, since the mask prevents reading lips. I would think removing the mask enables reading lips from a greater distance during intercourse, and distancing is more effective than a mask. So? be safe: lose the mask, enjoy intercourse from a respectful 4 meters rather than 2, everyone stays safer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:31:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:31:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that isn?t what that is either. Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. Do reframe your Hexaco question please. spike In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, so you are right that people come that way for the most part. What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] for Henry > > > > Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by > Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside > from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be > shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others > in the group might like: > > > > "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from > the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a > natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of > consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special > joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality > partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." > > > > Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask > and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. > > > > What do you think? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide > into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra > students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. > > > > I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, > high openness. > > > > Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much > people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself > that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With > that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you > not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both. > > > > Here in California we are constantly urged to wear masks, and I see nearly > half the proles doing so, outdoors. Indoors at a business it is required: > the store owner can throw one?s ass out for not doing it. So that one > doesn?t really count. But I have seen extremists, still see them: wearing > a mask while driving alone. That should be discouraged methinks: the > increase in CO2 while driving is a bad thing. > > > > Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of > consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask > indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that > isn?t what that is either. > > > > Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. > > > > Do reframe your Hexaco question please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:36:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:36:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid predictions Message-ID: Scroll down in the link bill w https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwJXLfpcSJscFfzBfRxtFBhdKDr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 19:42:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:42:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >? >?Do reframe your Hexaco question please? spike >?In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, so you are right that people come that way for the most part. What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w In the context of wearing a mask, much is lost. Outdoors, there is a wide disparity on opinion regarding their efficacy, so the choice isn?t really indicative of attitude regarding consideration of others. Indoors it is required (the shop owner can (and probably will) hurl you out if you refuse to wear it) so that doesn?t indicate considerations for others either. What can we use as a measurable and visible proxy for consideration for others? How about? participation in charity food drives and such as that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:55:41 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:55:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:09 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] for Henry > > Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: > > "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." > > Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. > > What do you think? > > bill w > > > > BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. > > I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, high openness. Is self-assessment always reliable in evaluating any of these traits? (Not saying you?re wrong, but one has to be careful about self-assessments, no?) Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:19:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:19:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If one were so inclined, they could Google reasons polls as to why a person does or does not wear a mask. That would give us some answers that are not assumptions. I repeat: even if it is not required, I'd wear a mask, and my reason is to protect other people just in case I am asymptomatic. As to measuring consideration for others, there already exist personality scales to measure that. Giving a can of beans would have to be accompanied by other such charity work to establish the reliability of the reasons. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *>?* > > >?Do reframe your Hexaco question please? spike > > > > >?In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others > - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it > seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting > others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there > is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. > > > > All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, > so you are right that people come that way for the most part. > > > > What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w > > > > > > > > > > In the context of wearing a mask, much is lost. Outdoors, there is a wide > disparity on opinion regarding their efficacy, so the choice isn?t really > indicative of attitude regarding consideration of others. Indoors it is > required (the shop owner can (and probably will) hurl you out if you refuse > to wear it) so that doesn?t indicate considerations for others either. > > > > What can we use as a measurable and visible proxy for consideration for > others? How about? participation in charity food drives and such as that? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 20:37:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:37:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. Regards, Dan Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. Where I live, outdoor masks are about half, possibly not quite half are wearing them. The governor demands it, but there is no legal requirement. Inside a shop or business, the business owner demands it (to keep her doors open) and she does have the authority to throw you out, so you wear it, regardless of your attitudes on conformity or compliance with the governor?s wishes. Dan I have some observations for you from my travels. In Mount Rainier National Park, that is federal property, so you can be arrested for marijuana there (illegal at the federal level) but not for refusing to wear a mask (congress never passed a law requiring them.) The trailheads demand masks, but don?t actually claim it is a legal requirement (it isn?t.). They just say ?Masks required.? Around half wear them there while hiking, possibly slightly more than half. I had a pleasant visit with a Mt. Rainier ranger, who is a federal employee. He wore a mask, I did not. We talked about a bear I spotted, the trail condition, the snow, for perhaps 10 minutes. He never did say a word about masks, but kept his on the whole time. We never came within about 3 meters of each other. On the way back, we were camping at a state park in Oregon. We were sitting at our campsite, park ranger came by on foot, she was wearing a mask, we were not. We visited for several minutes, she never mentioned masks. On that trip, one of my father-in-law?s neighbors expressed surprise we were able to come up there at all. They assumed it was illegal to travel with stay at home orders. Well, OK sure those exist in California. Had a Cal State trooper pulled me over on the way out and explained there was a stay-at-home order, I would point out the obvious: We are at home. That camper is my temporary home back there. What is she going to say? We weren?t breaking any laws. A camper is a completely self-contained unit. It has a refrigerator and a freezer (both cram full of food) and every cavity we could find in that camper was stuffed with food. The only thing we ran outta (twice) is water, but we stayed in commercial campgrounds and I refilled, so on we go. We never had to go to any stores in nearly 3 weeks, we were socially-distanced the whole time, other than passing people on the hiking trails. But there are exactly zero known or even plausibly suspected cases of transmission outdoors on hiking trails. So? no surprise we never caught anything that way. Very little of this has anything to do with conformity or otherwise that I can see. It has a lot to do with how much one thinks covid can jump from one person to another outdoors. That number is apparently low, which is why we didn?t see big outbreaks after the rallies and riots, where people were packed closely and most did not wear masks. Conclusion: mask wearing outdoors is not political or an indication of conformity, and they generally are not necessary or even advisable. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:47:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:47:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I conjecture that even when the conditions are reported as calm, there is a bit of air movement. That would make it more difficult for airborne germs to affect people. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > > > >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity > would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other > words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and > mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, > back in say early June, as going against the grain. > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. > Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories > you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also > naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely > populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to > masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. > > > > Where I live, outdoor masks are about half, possibly not quite half are > wearing them. The governor demands it, but there is no legal requirement. > Inside a shop or business, the business owner demands it (to keep her doors > open) and she does have the authority to throw you out, so you wear it, > regardless of your attitudes on conformity or compliance with the > governor?s wishes. > > > > Dan I have some observations for you from my travels. In Mount Rainier > National Park, that is federal property, so you can be arrested for > marijuana there (illegal at the federal level) but not for refusing to wear > a mask (congress never passed a law requiring them.) The trailheads demand > masks, but don?t actually claim it is a legal requirement (it isn?t.). > They just say ?Masks required.? Around half wear them there while hiking, > possibly slightly more than half. > > > > I had a pleasant visit with a Mt. Rainier ranger, who is a federal > employee. He wore a mask, I did not. We talked about a bear I spotted, > the trail condition, the snow, for perhaps 10 minutes. He never did say a > word about masks, but kept his on the whole time. We never came within > about 3 meters of each other. > > > > On the way back, we were camping at a state park in Oregon. We were > sitting at our campsite, park ranger came by on foot, she was wearing a > mask, we were not. We visited for several minutes, she never mentioned > masks. > > > > On that trip, one of my father-in-law?s neighbors expressed surprise we > were able to come up there at all. They assumed it was illegal to travel > with stay at home orders. Well, OK sure those exist in California. Had a > Cal State trooper pulled me over on the way out and explained there was a > stay-at-home order, I would point out the obvious: We are at home. That > camper is my temporary home back there. > > > > What is she going to say? We weren?t breaking any laws. > > > > A camper is a completely self-contained unit. It has a refrigerator and a > freezer (both cram full of food) and every cavity we could find in that > camper was stuffed with food. The only thing we ran outta (twice) is > water, but we stayed in commercial campgrounds and I refilled, so on we > go. We never had to go to any stores in nearly 3 weeks, we were > socially-distanced the whole time, other than passing people on the hiking > trails. But there are exactly zero known or even plausibly suspected cases > of transmission outdoors on hiking trails. So? no surprise we never caught > anything that way. > > > > Very little of this has anything to do with conformity or otherwise that I > can see. It has a lot to do with how much one thinks covid can jump from > one person to another outdoors. That number is apparently low, which is > why we didn?t see big outbreaks after the rallies and riots, where people > were packed closely and most did not wear masks. > > > > Conclusion: mask wearing outdoors is not political or an indication of > conformity, and they generally are not necessary or even advisable. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:51:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:51:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> On Aug 6, 2020, at 1:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > > >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 21:09:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:09:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> References: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. Regards, Dan Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, outside an old John Wayne movie. OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from me. Damn. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 6 20:07:08 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid predictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-06 12:36, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Scroll down in the link? ? ?bill w > https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwJXLfpcSJscFfzBfRxtFBhdKDr Maybe you can, but I cannot. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 6 22:10:41 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 18:10:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> References: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I?ll just say at this point, What a weird thread to have associated with my name. Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list. A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:10 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan > > >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. > > Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. > > So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. > > Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, outside an old John Wayne movie. > > OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. > > However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from me. Damn. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 22:43:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:43:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry I?ll just say at this point, >?What a weird thread to have associated with my name? Nah, this wouldn?t even make it to the semi-finals compared to some threads we have had here. I used to think I was the weirdest person ever, but once I came to California, I realized I would be struggling before I even made it to the state-level championships. I went down to Santa Cruz, got so discouraged I don?t even bother competing in weirdness contests anymore. >?Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list? The unpredictability of it all has kept me interested for over a quarter of a century. >?A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry Henry, don?t eeeeeeven bother trying to measure up to your old Uncle Spike in humility. I would beat you so bad, you would be humiliated and beat me. Since you are looking for words, consider this one Henry: Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 23:22:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 18:22:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, Henry, since you have not encountered this variable before, I suggest you buy the book. I'd love to get your reactions to it. The H scale is in the appendix. One problem with it: I can't tell the actual data from theoretical predictions (and I am going to write then about that, as well as the correlation between H and Conscientiousness). bill w https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=h+factor+psychology&ref=nb_sb_noss On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:12 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?ll just say at this point, > What a weird thread to have associated with my name. > > Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this > list. > > A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a > protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid > construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes > selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. > I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. > > -Henry > > On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:10 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dan > > > > >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is > political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was > meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight > thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in > action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. > He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July > picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. > > > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. > > > > Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person > you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get > military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. > It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. > > > > So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear > something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball > size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other > pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. > > > > Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I > am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, > outside an old John Wayne movie. > > > > OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. > > > > However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally > dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I > thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers > proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record > in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder > which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from > me. Damn. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 23:39:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:39:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? Message-ID: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Such a grim topic it is, that huge explosion in Beirut. When I was in engineering school, we had a compressible flow class where they had us do all these calculations on blast radius, overpressure threshold, shock wave mechanics and so forth. The cold war was still going in those days, so they thought it was a good thing for us to know about. My compressible-flow book went into a lotta gory detail on what happens behind a shock wave and how to figure out what it was that exploded based on the velocity of the shock wave (which isn?t the same as a leading-edge sound wave (because the shock wave travels in a compressed medium and sound waves do not (so the shock wave gets to ya first (and hurts a lot worse.)))) If we go with a cell-phone frame rate of about 30 per second, and estimate the shock wave was advancing at about 100 meters between frames, that is a shock wave velocity indicating ammonium nitrate, which supports the theory that it was a coupla thousand tons of fertilizer on a parked ship, possibly three thousand tons. Oy vey mercy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:36:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:36:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing. Based on who would gain (or not) in such a tragedy, I had assumed the ammonium nitrate claim was likely accurate. An attack from any obvious players doesn't seem in anyone's interest. I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case. On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 7:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Such a grim topic it is, that huge explosion in Beirut. > > > > When I was in engineering school, we had a compressible flow class where > they had us do all these calculations on blast radius, overpressure > threshold, shock wave mechanics and so forth. The cold war was still going > in those days, so they thought it was a good thing for us to know about. > > > > My compressible-flow book went into a lotta gory detail on what happens > behind a shock wave and how to figure out what it was that exploded based > on the velocity of the shock wave (which isn?t the same as a leading-edge > sound wave (because the shock wave travels in a compressed medium and sound > waves do not (so the shock wave gets to ya first (and hurts a lot worse.)))) > > > > If we go with a cell-phone frame rate of about 30 per second, and estimate > the shock wave was advancing at about 100 meters between frames, that is a > shock wave velocity indicating ammonium nitrate, which supports the theory > that it was a coupla thousand tons of fertilizer on a parked ship, possibly > three thousand tons. Oy vey mercy. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 7 00:44:50 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 17:44:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf >> of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own >> research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other >> fields is ludicrous.* > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own research > and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally reproduce > every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is > probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an astronomer's > 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to determine > the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an astronomer > reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the > expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. I agree that it is silly to expect microbiologists to reproduce results from astronomers or vice versa. But that's not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is if a microbiologist wants to buy a telescope, look at the sky with it, form opinions, ask questions, and use the scientific method to answer them, then she is within her rights to do so. Same if an astronomer wants to buy a microscope and study paramecium. Doing so does not suddenly make them an expert in the other's field, but it can still legitimately be called science. So is a layperson buying scientific instruments and tinkering around in his garage. That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in science. According to 2/3 of the researchers surveyed by Nature, irreproducibility of published results are a huge problem in science, these days: https://www.nature.com/collections/prbfkwmwvz/ > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different fields > how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm thinking > of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it > all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about > 20 million; And the history of so-called laypeople simply following their curiosity and exploring natural phenomena that interested them is full of resounding successes. Successes like Einstein who became a great physicist, but not until after he discovered special relativity as a patent clerk. Or Gregor Mendel who was a monk when he discovered genes. Or Erasto Mpemba who was a 13 year old school boy in Tanzania when he discovered the Mpemba effect. Lay people are capable of making important contributions to science. To say otherwise is elitist gate-keeping. > and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they > got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who are > mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. Hoyle and Kelvin were wrong, but so what? And to his credit, Linus Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did not help him, then his mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm him. Come to think of it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks being taken around these parts, he probably would have fit right in on this here list. > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. The advantage that professional scientists has over amateurs by virtue of "years of experience" is countered by the high-stakes publish-or-perish environment that the scientist lives under which incentivises the manipulation and misinterpretation of results which in turn leads to irreproducibility. > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other sciences routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear power) and immunology (vaccinations). Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 00:51:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 17:51:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? Dylan Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a really small nuke. Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of bombing Beirut. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:58:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:58:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: +100. Very well said. Apologies that I have nothing further to add. On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:46 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on > behalf > >> of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own > >> research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other > >> fields is ludicrous.* > > > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own > research > > and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally > reproduce > > every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is > > probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an > astronomer's > > 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to > determine > > the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an > astronomer > > reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the > > expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. > > I agree that it is silly to expect microbiologists to reproduce > results from astronomers or vice versa. But that's not what I am > talking about. What I am talking about is if a microbiologist wants to > buy a telescope, look at the sky with it, form opinions, ask > questions, and use the scientific method to answer them, then she is > within her rights to do so. Same if an astronomer wants to buy a > microscope and study paramecium. Doing so does not suddenly make them > an expert in the other's field, but it can still legitimately be > called science. So is a layperson buying scientific instruments and > tinkering around in his garage. > > That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in > science. According to 2/3 of the researchers surveyed by Nature, > irreproducibility of published results are a huge problem in science, > these days: > > https://www.nature.com/collections/prbfkwmwvz/ > > > > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different > fields > > how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm > thinking > > of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it > > all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about > > 20 million; > > And the history of so-called laypeople simply following their > curiosity and exploring natural phenomena that interested them is full > of resounding successes. Successes like Einstein who became a great > physicist, but not until after he discovered special relativity as a > patent clerk. Or Gregor Mendel who was a monk when he discovered > genes. Or Erasto Mpemba who was a 13 year old school boy in Tanzania > when he discovered the Mpemba effect. Lay people are capable of making > important contributions to science. To say otherwise is elitist > gate-keeping. > > > and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they > > got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who > are > > mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. > > Hoyle and Kelvin were wrong, but so what? And to his credit, Linus > Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did not help him, then his > mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm him. Come to think of > it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks being taken around > these parts, he probably would have fit right in on this here list. > > > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. > > The advantage that professional scientists has over amateurs by virtue > of "years of experience" is countered by the high-stakes > publish-or-perish environment that the scientist lives under which > incentivises the manipulation and misinterpretation of results which > in turn leads to irreproducibility. > > > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > > stooges of the right. > > Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like > sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other > sciences routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear > power) and immunology (vaccinations). > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 01:25:08 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:25:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks. Again, I'm out of my element, and will defer to the EXPERTS on this one! On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have > been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud > and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? > Dylan > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. > > > > There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a > yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. > From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the > color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a > really small nuke. > > > > Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some > bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of > bombing Beirut. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 01:33:29 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:33:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> References: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Did you see this 2 weeks ago, written by 25 SWEDISH DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS? https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/21/coronavirus-swedish-herd-immunity-drove-up-death-toll-column/5472100002/ ?Sweden has a death toll greater than the United States: 564 deaths per million inhabitants compared with 444, as of July 27.? I haven?t looked up where we are today. >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 2:44 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > > > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Do your own research > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance > > >?Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries? > > Or just compare them against each other. Sweden is the world?s mine canary, having never shut stuff down. > > >? Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. > > John K Clark > > > OK. Sweden was doing something seriously wrong in March and April, but in May, June, July and August, things went well for them: > > > > > > Sweden is doing better than New York and Texas with their aggressive shutdowns, and way better than California with its mixed approach. > > Looking up there at Sweden, who didn?t ever go the shutdown route, we next might need to look at business failure rates, suicide rates and school scores to figure out the cost in human lives of a shutdown. > > Given Sweden somehow managed to bring this to the ground without a shutdown, could this be what herd immunity looks like? What if? these Nordic countries just have a higher natural resistance to flu? If so, that would make sense: they are cooped up indoors for a long time in the winter, they go outside a lot in the summer, we have good indications the risk of outdoor transmission is comparatively low because the political rallies, rock concerts and protest riots didn?t show a lot of transmission. > > So? is that Sweden signal indicating Stefan was right and that eventually herd immunity is the way? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 01:49:57 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:49:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> References: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. > Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? That?s a tough one. How about... Serenity. Or peacefulness? Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 6:43 PM, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry > > I?ll just say at this point, > > >?What a weird thread to have associated with my name? > > Nah, this wouldn?t even make it to the semi-finals compared to some threads we have had here. > > I used to think I was the weirdest person ever, but once I came to California, I realized I would be struggling before I even made it to the state-level championships. I went down to Santa Cruz, got so discouraged I don?t even bother competing in weirdness contests anymore. > > >?Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list? > > The unpredictability of it all has kept me interested for over a quarter of a century. > > >?A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry > > Henry, don?t eeeeeeven bother trying to measure up to your old Uncle Spike in humility. I would beat you so bad, you would be humiliated and beat me. > > Since you are looking for words, consider this one Henry: Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? what? > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 02:15:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 19:15:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> From: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry >?.That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. Sure, but what is the most priceless thing? I am pretty sure if we set up some kind of contest or competition, I can come up with several pricelesser things than that, without even trying. I heard of something they said was priceless: those paintings on the ceiling of that Sixteen Chapel. No way Jose! We could get those babies down, frame in a nice lacquered cherrywood, we could fetch a decent price out of em, thousands of bucks I bet. >>?Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? >?That?s a tough one. How about... >?Serenity. >?Or peacefulness? >?Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. OK cool thanks Henry. I like your serenity answer. I will offer one that I consider the closest to negative anger: gratitude. I am a person filled with gratitude for how my life has turned out, how our world turned out, because I can so easily imagine so many ways things coulda gone so much more wrong. Aside: I am regularly online with distant cousins who lived their lives (most of them) near where I was born. It is economically blighted today. The hospital where I was born went out of business a coupla months ago. A few covid patients were their only customers, the rest choosing to stay home and have their strokes and heart attacks treated by amateurs rather than risking catching something bad at the local hospital. I got a notice on our family forum: if I want any of my medical records, apply for them now because they would be archived to where they weren?t necessarily accessible, not easily in any case. A bunch of us were talking about it and deciding what to do. I decided to let it go: I have a copy of my birth certificate. I don?t care about the rest of it, if there is any. As I kicked all this around, I realized how different my life is from my own cousins, many of whom are genetically similar, but whose lives were far different. They live in a beautiful place out there, such nice surroundings, out in the country, nature, the hills and forest, beautiful. But? there is very little money out there. When I was born in 1960 I became the 800th citizen of Bellefonte KY. Today? there are about 820 people living in that town, but many of them are in poor health. I am filled with a profound sense of gratitude, which negates any anger I can stir within, even in our times when our own USA new media are making a living stirring up anger. People will read the stories if they are sufficiently angry, and many will believe what they read. But I am filled with gratitude for how things turned out. Sadness comes to us all. I got one of my Kentucky second cousins into DNA genealogy, convinced him into doing a test, sent him the kit, yesterday I heard his sample went into PCR, today I find out he is in the hospital with a heart attack and it isn?t looking good, oy vey, and he had to go all the way into Ashland because the Bellefonte hospital is closed. Meanwhile, my heart beats on as if nothing is wrong. Why am I so lucky? The law of averages will surely catch my ass one of these days. But so far so good. I am grateful. A powerful emotion is gratitude. It is negative anger. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 02:58:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:58:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:02 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why can?t we have a separate classification of like... ?Limited > Resuscitation? Orders? If they are a thing, I?ve never heard of them. > ### Yes, there are all kinds of conditions and restrictions you can put in your wish list, and the default options in Epic include separate orders for resuscitation, intubation, IV fluids, antibiotics - but still there is no option to "Resuscitate if highly likely to do well, do not resuscitate if likely to end up badly". This kind of distinction is actually pretty difficult to define and implement in a scalable fashion. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:24:21 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:24:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> References: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:17 PM wrote: > > Rafal and SR, we must deal with the way ICU patients are cared for and > paid for. If a person has no insurance, then a few weeks in the ICU would > impoverish their family, then I can completely see why a person would want > nothing to do with that. I wouldn't want that either. > > Ideally we should have some means of doing a limited-liability insurance > policy whereby a person or family can buy some fixed amount, say 200k, to > cover ICU expenses. Then by agreement, when that money is gone, I'm gone. > > ### The family cannot be held liable for a person's medical expenses, AFAIK, unless we are talking about a dependent child. The hospital could collect from the estate though. Most of the time hospitals will transfer uninsured care losses to us by increasing the prices they charge to us. The 1000% markups we pay for our care are intentional - they are just another manifestation of the takers fleecing the makers. Setting explicit limits on expenses that would allow a hospital to stop providing care after a cap is reached, although very reasonable, is not likely to happen. Most people try to avoid confronting their mortality. Letting hospitals stop care based on economic considerations would be a taboo trade-off - life and money cannot be explicitly traded off against each other, on pain of moral outrage and political attack. I wish I lived in a world of reasonable people. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 03:35:07 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:35:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> References: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <58F4ED24-64DE-4A0E-A3F1-AA362F0B3E8C@alumni.virginia.edu> Gratitude seems a fitting answer. Nice one. > On Aug 6, 2020, at 10:15 PM, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > > ? > > > From: Henry Rivera > Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry > > >?.That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. > > > Sure, but what is the most priceless thing? I am pretty sure if we set up some kind of contest or competition, I can come up with several pricelesser things than that, without even trying. > > I heard of something they said was priceless: those paintings on the ceiling of that Sixteen Chapel. No way Jose! We could get those babies down, frame in a nice lacquered cherrywood, we could fetch a decent price out of em, thousands of bucks I bet. > > >>?Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? > > >?That?s a tough one. > How about... > > >?Serenity. > > >?Or peacefulness? > > >?Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. > > > > OK cool thanks Henry. I like your serenity answer. I will offer one that I consider the closest to negative anger: gratitude. I am a person filled with gratitude for how my life has turned out, how our world turned out, because I can so easily imagine so many ways things coulda gone so much more wrong. > > Aside: I am regularly online with distant cousins who lived their lives (most of them) near where I was born. It is economically blighted today. The hospital where I was born went out of business a coupla months ago. A few covid patients were their only customers, the rest choosing to stay home and have their strokes and heart attacks treated by amateurs rather than risking catching something bad at the local hospital. I got a notice on our family forum: if I want any of my medical records, apply for them now because they would be archived to where they weren?t necessarily accessible, not easily in any case. > > A bunch of us were talking about it and deciding what to do. I decided to let it go: I have a copy of my birth certificate. I don?t care about the rest of it, if there is any. > > As I kicked all this around, I realized how different my life is from my own cousins, many of whom are genetically similar, but whose lives were far different. They live in a beautiful place out there, such nice surroundings, out in the country, nature, the hills and forest, beautiful. But? there is very little money out there. When I was born in 1960 I became the 800th citizen of Bellefonte KY. Today? there are about 820 people living in that town, but many of them are in poor health. > > I am filled with a profound sense of gratitude, which negates any anger I can stir within, even in our times when our own USA new media are making a living stirring up anger. People will read the stories if they are sufficiently angry, and many will believe what they read. > > But I am filled with gratitude for how things turned out. Sadness comes to us all. I got one of my Kentucky second cousins into DNA genealogy, convinced him into doing a test, sent him the kit, yesterday I heard his sample went into PCR, today I find out he is in the hospital with a heart attack and it isn?t looking good, oy vey, and he had to go all the way into Ashland because the Bellefonte hospital is closed. Meanwhile, my heart beats on as if nothing is wrong. Why am I so lucky? The law of averages will surely catch my ass one of these days. But so far so good. > > I am grateful. A powerful emotion is gratitude. It is negative anger. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:38:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:38:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: References: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:07 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Thanks for bringing this up Rafal, > > I'm completely frustrated with not knowing what to do with this, or what > kind of "advanced life directive" I need. I'm signed up with Alcor, and > expected they would provide me with one. I asked them, probably only once, > in passing, quite a while ago, so it is probably my fault, but I am > completely frustrated that they aren't at least providing a sample one, and > telling me what is and isn't important, for Alcor to be most likely able to > do what they need to do. > > Where does one go, to find a sample "advanced life directive" that is > compatible with being signed up with Alcor? > Do any of you Alcor people out there have one? Could I see a copy? > > ### I wrote my own advanced life directive with the help of my lawyer. It is supposed to work with my POA (power of attorney) for medical decision making. Here it is: Summary of instructions to medical providers (excerpt from my MEDICAL POWER OF ATTORNEY FOR HEALTH CARE DECISIONS) Rafal Smigrodzki, MD I have made provisions for the preservation of my brain after I am declared legally dead. Specifically, I authorized a whole-body donation pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc. of Scottsdale, Arizona. In the event of my legal death, Alcor is authorized to take immediate possession of my body, without delay of any kind. I ask my agent and my medical providers to: 1) Call Alcor at 1-800-367-2228 immediately in any situation where there is a substantial likelihood of my death or major neurological injury, or if my body is delivered to their care. Contacting Alcor shall not be delayed until I am declared incapable of making decisions in writing, and providers are indemnified against any liability stemming from contacting Alcor. 2) Alcor Inc, its agents and employees, including persons staffing the Alcor emergency contact telephone line 1-800-367-2228, and staff on the Alcor Standby team, are cleared by me to receive medical information privileged under HIPAA, insofar as needed to facilitate coordination of care between Alcor and my medical care providers. Alcor employees involved in my case may request and shall promptly be given access to information, including but not limited to, my overall medical condition, prognosis, extent of known damage to the brain, any issues that may adversely impact post- mortem perfusion and stabilization, and may request any available medical record information they deem useful in performing their duties. 3) I disallow autopsy, brain biopsy, organ donation or any other post-mortem procedures unless explicitly agreed to by authorized Alcor employees. 4) In case of witnessed normothermic cardiac arrest, resuscitation must be stopped if there is no ROSC (return of sustained circulation) at the 5 minute mark, given the known poor likelihood of good recovery after more prolonged period of brain ischemia ( Curr Cardiol Rep. 2014 Mar;16(3):457) and given my post-mortem preservation goals. No medical provider shall be held liable for adhering to this instruction. 5) In case of traumatic brain injury, cerebral hemorrhage, major stroke and other situations associated with severe brain edema and impending brainstem herniation, all life support activities should be stopped immediately. 6) In case of unexplained coma not of metabolic origin, such as status post unwitnessed cardiac arrest, an EEG (electroencephalogram) should be performed promptly. If there is severe global brain dysfunction, manifesting for example as burst-suppression pattern, electrocerebral silence, treatment-refractory status epilepticus and other patterns associated with poor prognosis, as assessed by the reading neurologist, all life support treatment should be stopped immediately, even if brainstem reflexes are preserved and I do not fulfill criteria for brain death. 7) In all other situations where it is reasonably certain that I will not recover my ability to interact meaningfully with myself and those around me, I want to stop or withhold all treatments that might prolong my existence. Treatments I would not want include tube feedings, IV fluids, CPR, respirator (breathing machine), kidney dialysis, and antibiotics. However, venous access devices and endotracheal tubes should not be removed until after authorized by Alcor. 8) Immediately after I am pronounced legally dead, I ask my medical providers to inject, if possible, 500 U/kg of unfractionated heparin IV, to perform manual chest compressions for 5 minutes to distribute the heparin, and to wrap my body including the head in a cooling blanket set to the lowest available temperature, unless instructed otherwise by Alcor personnel. 9) If for any reason it is not possible or allowed for Alcor personnel to start their stabilization and preservation procedures in the facility where I die, I direct the facility to transfer my body as soon as possible to another facility, chosen by Alcor representatives, where such procedures may commence. 10) Alcor personnel may be consulted pre-mortem for advice regarding optimal conditions for brain preservation. In making decisions about the duration and extent of care, practitioners and agents should use their clinical judgment to maximize the likelihood of achieving a good post-mortem preservation of brain tissue, rather than trying to prolong the duration of my unconscious life. In addition, I wish to instruct my healthcare providers and agents as to the following: 1) I do want pain medicine and symptom treatments to keep me comfortable, even if it means I am unable to interact with others. I want treatment for such things as shortness of breath, agitation, and seizures 2) As noted above, upon my death I direct that an anatomical gift of all my body must be made pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc, of Scottsdale, Arizona. Rafal Smigrodzki, October 19, 2014 ----------------- It is extremely important to have a POA who is familiar with your cryonics goals and is a powerful, smart friend - without a living person pushing to have you suspended you are much more likely to suffer true death if you end up in the hospital and doctors do their usual stuff. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:44:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:44:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's why In-Reply-To: References: <000001d63d3f$b4d9b990$1e8d2cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:19 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > They are proposing replacing the existing police force with a better one: > ### No, they want to replace our police with their police, so if they need somebody beaten up, it will happen. The whole "defund the police" farce is nothing but a bare-faced power grab by people who already have too much power over us. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:48:28 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:48:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's why In-Reply-To: References: <000001d63d3f$b4d9b990$1e8d2cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Politicians have to stand up to the unions. Congress has to end qualified > immunity (there's a bill in the House now). Transfer of military equipment > to police needs to stop. I think every use of force or allegation of > wrongdoing by an officer should be reviewed by a citizen's review board > empowered to recommend disciplinary actions, criminal charges, or firing, > and these results should be a permanent part of every officer's record. > State and federal governments will have to decriminalize drugs. > ### Absolutely, I agree with all that - but I'd be very surprised if the current political circus lead to any reform, if anything they want to make things much worse. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:00:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 00:00:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dylan Distasio wrote: > > snip > > > There are three main arguments that anti-fascists use to > justify their occasional violence. ### Merely calling yourself "antifa" doesn't make you so. In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, the people's democratic elections are not about electing anybody... the list goes on. Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Party. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:20:34 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 00:20:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Lockdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:34 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > " Lockdowns and other distancing measures have had resounding success > at thwarting the new coronavirus, according to two independently > conducted studies. One found that stay-at-home orders and policies > that restrict face-to-face contact were especially effective in 11 > European countries, reducing transmission by 81%. The combination of > policies aimed at slowing the virus?s spread prevented more than 3 > million deaths from the epidemic?s start to early May. Another study > that looked at China, the United States and 4 more countries showed > that across all 6 countries, anti-transmission measures averted > roughly 500 million infections." > > From Nature > > I would modify the article. "Prevented" should be "delayed" and > "averted" should be "temporarily averted" assuming we get neither a > vaccine nor effective treatments. ### Indeed. We see it perfectly now: [image: image.png] After the initial spike which triggered lockdowns the epidemic started to resolve, in accordance with the R0 created by lockdowns. Then lockdowns more or less ended and cases spiked (plus there was more testing), in accordance with the R0 created by a no-lockdown situation. Since the change in R0 achieved by lockdowns was not permanent, all that the multi trillion dollar lockdown hysteria achieved was to shift cases between April and July. By the time a permanent way of changing R0 in the form of a vaccine arrives the whole thing will be 90% over anyway. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 194895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:25:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Antifa are not the armed wing of the democratic party. Antifa is so far left of the Democratic Party that it?s honestly not even a funny joke. SR Ballard > On Aug 6, 2020, at 11:00 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> Dylan Distasio wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > There are three main arguments that anti-fascists use to >> justify their occasional violence. > > ### Merely calling yourself "antifa" doesn't make you so. In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, the people's democratic elections are not about electing anybody... the list goes on. Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Party. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 05:04:44 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:04:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is > basically a good idea, > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 05:13:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:13:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Bill, you have most of it, but you miss the fact that *most of the > time*, your tribe swapped women with the neighboring tribe. ### Napoleon Chagnon seems to disagree. "Swapping" occurred in the context of raids or by extortion. Equally powerful groups might have some voluntary member exchange but mostly women were acquired by force. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 08:29:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 04:29:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:47 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >* I**f a microbiologist wants to buy a telescope, look at the sky with > it, form opinions, ask questions, and use the scientific method to answer > them, then she is within her rights to do so.* I'm a libertarian (small l) so I think she has a right to say whatever she wants, but if she is not only forming her own astronomical theories to explain the facts but also forming her own facts obtained with a Walmart toy telescope and doing so for clearly political reasons then it is my right to call her a ideological crackpot. > > *That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in > science.* The scientific community is not perfect but you are not going to get closer to the truth from right wing bloggers who have been students of the science of epidemiology for 20 minutes or so. > *> to his credit, Linus Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did > not help him, then his mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm > him. Come to think of it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks > being taken around these parts, he probably would have fit right in on > this here list.* > Linus Pauling was the greatest chemist of the 20th century so I'd forgive his little vitamin-C eccentricity, and he'd fit in with this list as it was until about 5 years ago because, although he was interested in politics and got a second Nobel Prize for opposing atmospheric nuclear bomb testing, for him scientific truth always had priority over ideology, both right wing and left. But this list has radically changed in the last 5 years, so Linus Pauling would no longer fit in around here. I'm not sure I do either. > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges >> of the right. > > > > *Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like > sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other sciences > routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear power)* It's true that left-wing science deniers exist too but they are not in ascendancy or are the immediate problem, the immediate problem is right wing crackpots in charge of the federal government who are denying reality and killing people as a result, tens of thousands of people. *> and immunology (vaccinations).* > Trump loves vaccines now because he thinks the hope of one will help him get reelected, however 4 Years ago he said he hated vaccines and blamed them for giving children autism because he thought that would help him get elected. And it did. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 10:11:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:11:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and >> is basically a good idea, >> > > > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great > again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing the police*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 10:29:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:29:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about #987. I'd put right wing nuts somewhere in the top 5. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 13:55:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:55:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother Message-ID: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> For years I went to a really good sushi bar down the way from the Lockheed plant, great place, now outta business, but the guy who owned the place and his wife did everything, made the sushi, no other employees. He was pretty good at Spanish, his English not so much. When I would go in there, he would say: go aisatsu, Amanojaku, which I assumed means hello friend, even though it sounds a little like: Go, I sat sue, Amanojaku. He and I got along fine. I said I was thinking about learning Japanese, since I like the food so much and admire the culture. He suggested, no, too hard for American people, learn Spanish. This is what he did, and we could almost communicate better with my little bit of Spanish than we could with his very limited English. So it was years of go aisatsu, Amanojaku. Yesterday a Japanese neighbor's granddaughter was visiting from Japan. She introduced us, so I said go aisatsu, Amanojaku. The visiting family laughed. My neighbor explained that I might be better off sticking to my native language, that English speakers probably needn't bother with Japanese because it was far too cluttered with subtleties, such as: there isn't a really universal word for greeting a general acquaintance exactly, nothing analogous to our generic term "friend" the way we use it. A new acquaintance or friend has different (completely different) terms based on your position (which I interpret as social? position) such as a grandfather-aged man to a child, a child to a grandfather-aged man, two neighbors the same age, gender-specific, oy vey, let's flee to the universal term "amigo" please. It was a pleasant exchange, there were no problems or anything. But I went on home and looked it up. After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying "Greetings, horrifying demon." Why that sly bastard. I don't think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:10:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:10:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to say about it: * *"* *While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. I worked much harder at it, and got to a point where I could go around in taxis and do things. I took lessons from a Japanese man every day for an hour. One day he was teaching me the word for "see." "All right," he said. "You want to say, 'May I see your garden?' What do you say?" I made up a sentence with the word that I had just learned. "No, no!" he said. "When you say to someone, 'Would you like to see my garden? you use the first 'see.' But when you want to see someone else's garden, you must use another 'see,' which is more polite." "Would you like to glance at my lousy garden?" is essentially what you're saying in the first case, but when you want to look at the other fella's garden, you have to say something like, "May I observe your gorgeous garden?" So there's two different words you have to use. Then he gave me another one: "You go to a temple, and you want to look at the gardens. . ." I made up a sentence, this time with the polite "see." "No, no!" he said. "In the temple, the gardens are much more elegant. So you have to say something that would be equivalent to 'May I hang my eyes on your most exquisite gardens?' Three or four different words for one idea, because when I'm doing it, it's miserable? when you're doing it, it's elegant. I was learning Japanese mainly for technical things, so I decided to check if this same problem existed among the scientists. At the institute the next day, I said to the guys in the office, "How would I say in Japanese, 'I solve the Dirac Equation'?" They said such?and?so. "OK. Now I want to say, 'Would you solve the Dirac Equation?' ?? how do I say that?" "Well, you have to use a different word for 'solve,' " they say. "Why?" I protested. "When I solve it, I do the same damn thing as when you solve it!" "Well, yes, but it's a different word ?? it's more polite." I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning Japanese."* * John K Clark* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:33:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:33:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Language is an incredibly powerful element of a culture. There is a circular feedback loop of culture shaping language and language shaping culture. I believe it affects thought directly as it is difficult to think about something when you don't have something in the language to verbalize it. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:12 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out >> Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child >> and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her >> grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi >> guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I >> don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I >> say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *"* > > > > > > *While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. I worked much > harder at it, and got to a point where I could go around in taxis and do > things. I took lessons from a Japanese man every day for an hour. One day > he was teaching me the word for "see." "All right," he said. "You want to > say, 'May I see your garden?' What do you say?" I made up a sentence with > the word that I had just learned. "No, no!" he said. "When you say to > someone, 'Would you like to see my garden? you use the first 'see.' But > when you want to see someone else's garden, you must use another 'see,' > which is more polite." "Would you like to glance at my lousy garden?" is > essentially what you're saying in the first case, but when you want to > look at the other fella's garden, you have to say something like, "May I > observe your gorgeous garden?" So there's two different words you have to > use. Then he gave me another one: "You go to a temple, and you want to > look at the gardens. . ." I made up a sentence, this time with the polite > "see." "No, no!" he said. "In the temple, the gardens are much more > elegant. So you have to say something that would be equivalent to 'May I > hang my eyes on your most exquisite gardens?' Three or four different > words for one idea, because when I'm doing it, it's miserable? when you're > doing it, it's elegant. I was learning Japanese mainly for technical > things, so I decided to check if this same problem existed among the > scientists. At the institute the next day, I said to the guys in the > office, "How would I say in Japanese, 'I solve the Dirac Equation'?" They > said such?and?so. "OK. Now I want to say, 'Would you solve the Dirac > Equation?' ?? how do I say that?" "Well, you have to use a different word > for 'solve,' " they say. "Why?" I protested. "When I solve it, I do the > same damn thing as when you solve it!" "Well, yes, but it's a different > word ?? it's more polite." I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language > for me, and stopped learning Japanese."* > > * John K Clark* > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 16:54:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 09:54:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to say about it: >?"While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning Japanese." John K Clark The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard qwerty keyboard: Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a trombone. But the tried, kinda: ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they dropped that. Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a specialized subset of language. Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and use be for all of it? The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:57:48 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:57:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What's wrong with hieroglyphics? Chinese is an extreme beautiful and parsimonious language. Also, polite forms in Japanese aren't always completely different words, often just a different suffix. We have lots of polite and impolite forms of words here too: hey, hi, hello. &c On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 12:54 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I > gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning > Japanese.**"* > > > > * John K Clark* > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole > notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they > invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard > qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense > with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, > been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we > could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and > use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:03:36 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:03:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 17:56, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Google translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person". Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:04:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I found it interesting that the INdonesian language has no past or future verb forms. "I do that tomorrow. Or I do that next week." The more I learn about language the more I see that the world needs Esperanto or something like it, mainly for business. The big languages are big messes or homophones and tonal variations of the same word, etc. etc. Nonverbal language ditto. I read where it is just impossible for a Westerner to understand the Japanese bowing - how much, to whom, how long, etc. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I > gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning > Japanese.**"* > > > > * John K Clark* > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole > notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they > invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard > qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense > with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, > been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we > could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and > use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:06:41 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:06:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:19:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:19:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the translator was up one too. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:13 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 17:56, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the > whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so > they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a > standard qwerty keyboard: > > > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future > tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, > being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what > if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball > star and use be for all of it? > > > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation > programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Google > translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person". > Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two > male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little > devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:22:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:22:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Not that I'm a linguist, but having studied Latin many moons ago, my vote would be for that to be the lingua franca. It may not be the most exciting or beautiful language, but it is very well structured and generally follows well defined rules. There's a big difference between the Latin spoken by Virgil/Cicero compared to the unwashed masses, but I believe it would be a good choice. English (at least for now) is the defacto one, in the past it was French. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:19 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I found it interesting that the INdonesian language has no past or future > verb forms. "I do that tomorrow. Or I do that next week." > > The more I learn about language the more I see that the world needs > Esperanto or something like it, mainly for business. The big languages are > big messes or homophones and tonal variations of the same word, etc. etc. > Nonverbal language ditto. I read where it is just impossible for a > Westerner to understand the Japanese bowing - how much, to whom, how long, > etc. > > bill w > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out >> Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child >> and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her >> grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi >> guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I >> don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I >> say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* >> >> >> *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to >> say about it: * >> >> *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I >> gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning >> Japanese.**"* >> >> >> >> * John K Clark* >> >> >> >> The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the >> whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so >> they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a >> standard qwerty keyboard: >> >> Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. >> >> >> >> They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. >> >> The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language >> thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a >> trombone. But the tried, kinda: >> >> ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. >> >> >> >> Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard >> keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes >> in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they >> dropped that. >> >> Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese >> didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. >> >> Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their >> written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a >> kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are >> collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect >> the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) >> >> Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole >> Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been >> introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the >> political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a >> specialized subset of language. >> >> Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense >> with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, >> been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we >> could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and >> use be for all of it? >> >> The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a >> simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, >> unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept >> clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. >> >> Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. >> >> I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown >> distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced >> to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it >> come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. >> >> I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. >> >> There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:27:56 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:27:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:24 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. > > I'm not sure I would call it dumbing down. There's no question there is a difference, but that doesn't mean one is superior to the other in terms of method of address. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:30:32 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:30:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1BD9F6C2-5012-402F-A2BD-8B6E5772007D@gmail.com> He called you that probably as a cute joke because you were so eager to eat his food and tried to be very charming SR Ballard > On Aug 7, 2020, at 8:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > For years I went to a really good sushi bar down the way from the Lockheed plant, great place, now outta business, but the guy who owned the place and his wife did everything, made the sushi, no other employees. He was pretty good at Spanish, his English not so much. When I would go in there, he would say: go aisatsu, Amanojaku, which I assumed means hello friend, even though it sounds a little like: Go, I sat sue, Amanojaku. > > He and I got along fine. I said I was thinking about learning Japanese, since I like the food so much and admire the culture. He suggested, no, too hard for American people, learn Spanish. This is what he did, and we could almost communicate better with my little bit of Spanish than we could with his very limited English. > > So it was years of go aisatsu, Amanojaku. > > Yesterday a Japanese neighbor?s granddaughter was visiting from Japan. She introduced us, so I said go aisatsu, Amanojaku. The visiting family laughed. My neighbor explained that I might be better off sticking to my native language, that English speakers probably needn?t bother with Japanese because it was far too cluttered with subtleties, such as: there isn?t a really universal word for greeting a general acquaintance exactly, nothing analogous to our generic term ?friend? the way we use it. A new acquaintance or friend has different (completely different) terms based on your position (which I interpret as social? position) such as a grandfather-aged man to a child, a child to a grandfather-aged man, two neighbors the same age, gender-specific, oy vey, let?s flee to the universal term ?amigo? please. > > It was a pleasant exchange, there were no problems or anything. > > But I went on home and looked it up. After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. > > All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:46:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:46:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <019501d66ce2$9f6407f0$de2c17d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother >?What's wrong with hieroglyphics? Chinese is an extreme beautiful and parsimonious language. >?Also, polite forms in Japanese aren't always completely different words, often just a different suffix. We have lots of polite and impolite forms of words here too: hey, hi, hello. &c Ja, out with all of it in Newspeak I say. It all becomes just ?greetings.? If subtle shades of meaning are needed, we use the modifier good. Wave to friend, ?good greetings.? Some jerk bumps your car with his door, instead of HEY it becomes UNGOOD GREETINGS. That sorta thing. Newspeak isn?t great for expressing emotion, writing haiku, getting mama in the mood, any of that. It would be kind of a universal business language of sorts. Here?s why I am struggling with this concept. We are in a culture war of sorts and the immigrants among us are most puzzled. The people across the street came from China when their son was taking his first steps. Now he has a good college degree, great job, still lives at home by mutual choice. But there is a definite culture divide in their home, which they deal with effectively. The parents? English is passable, but their culture is very Chinese. The son speaks English without a trace of accent, and speaks some Mandarin (can?t write it.) He definitely thinks in English. Culturally the parents are very Chinese but their son is American to the core and thinks like Americans do. This came up once again, with the whole shelter-in-place orders. My neighbor (the father, who is about my age) told me he was worried about his son. He thinks he can just go and do whatever he wants. I was puzzled by the comment, pointing out: Well, he can. We discussed it and realized something important with his comment: In China, if your mother or the government tells you do something, you better do it. With his comment, I realized he had in a sense equated government to his own mother. Americans like his son just don?t think that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:49:04 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a solution except to construct power satellites entirely with robots/teleoperation. If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on request.) If we are building only a few, then the power satellites can cope with the damage and the additional space junk created by the hits. But a few power satellites will not solve energy or carbon problems, it takes thousands and this would cause Kessler syndrome The only solution I know is to build them above the junk at around 2000 km. People can't work there, it's in the lower Van Allen belt and lethal within hours. It is physically possible to clean up the space junk, but the cost and political problems would probably doom power satellites entirely. The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% over the cost at 300 km. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:53:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:53:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c801d66ce3$a395d550$eac17ff0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) BillK _______________________________________________ >...Google translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person"... BillK haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaheheheheheheeeeeeeeeehehehheeehehehehehheheheheeeeee.... How did he know that? OK cool, I will still eat his sushi if I can find him. I was a volunteer noodle cooker at the annual Obon Festival in San Jose Buddhist temple for several years. The guys there were giving me nicknames and putting me up to saying things in Japanese, but I was always wary of those fellers, knowing there were subtleties to their language which we round-eye not only didn't get, we just couldn't get, because we had never lived in Japan. I still want to go there and hang around for at least several weeks. I will wait until the virus goes away. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:59:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:59:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c901d66ce4$7ad17920$70746b60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother Spike, You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling? Hi Mike, ja, we need all that cultural stuff outta there at every level. We have torn down the notion of social rank, the differing levels of respect in American society, removed notional differences between classes, genders and races. Now all Americans are the same. Being cultural missionaries in a sense, now we must make every other culture like ours if they want to do business with our asses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 18:01:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:01:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother >?I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the translator was up one too. bill w Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:11:04 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:11:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chagnon was Protest Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Bill, you have most of it, but you miss the fact that *most of the >> time*, your tribe swapped women with the neighboring tribe. >### Napoleon Chagnon seems to disagree. "Swapping" occurred in the context of raids or by extortion. Equally powerful groups might have some voluntary member exchange but mostly women were acquired by force. "The percentage of females in the lowland villages who have been abducted is significantly higher: 17% compared to 11.7% in the highland villages." (Napoleon Chagnon quoted at Sexual Polarization in Warrior Cultures) https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding That still means that practically everyone in the tribe was descended within the last few generations from a captive. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:20:58 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:20:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Japanese was don't bother Message-ID: My daughter speaks Japanese, well enough to get around in Japan. She took four years of it in high school and two in college. Keith From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 7 18:47:46 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 11:47:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Keith Henson: > > Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have > thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a > solution except to construct power satellites entirely with > robots/teleoperation. Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? That would be above the Van Allen radiation belt. Another possibility might be to construct them in polar orbit. Then the astronauts would only be in the belt 1/3 of the time. Since they would know when they would be entering the belt, they would be able to seek shelter inside small shielded compartments or something. I haven't done any calculations on these ideas, so I am just throwing them out there as suggestions. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:59:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:59:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. spike Yeah, and neither one necessarily involves an animal. Depending on your taste in the latter case. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > >?I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a > cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make > it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the > translator was up one too. bill w > > > > > > Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:01:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:01:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn: Henry Message-ID: Here is my review of the H factor book: https://www.amazon.com/review/R8C9AYJAJK5OM/ref=pe_1098610_137716200_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:02:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:02:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have > thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a > solution except to construct power satellites entirely with > robots/teleoperation. > I also think that teleconstruction is the best route for any on-orbit construction needed for this application.. > If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, > they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on > request.) > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. > The only > solution I know is to build them above the junk at around 2000 km. > People can't work there, it's in the lower Van Allen belt and lethal > within hours. > What are you thinking they are built of, and how do those components get there in ways that fully constructed satellites wouldn't? For that matter, how are you thinking the components get to LEO, in ways that are collectively cheaper than ground assembly then launching the whole thing to LEO? > The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, > then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the > construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small > target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann > transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost > of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% > over the cost at 300 km. > Have you looked into ion engines for the tug instead of chemical engines? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:05:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:05:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:49 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at > earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a lunar construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully assembled) from the Moon to GEO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:44:21 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:44:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. > > > > spike > > Yeah, and neither one necessarily involves an animal. Depending > > on your taste in the latter case. bill w > Here's a scene from some science fiction I recently drabbled. In the far future, humanity has spread among the stars and taken their pets with them. One variety, named "ship's cat", has been upgraded to be fully compatible with life aboard starships: they will avoid vacuum (or if needed, wander into emergency-pressure rescue balls), are mostly housebroken by instinct (the litter box being the only sandy surface in most ships), have passive radio-response tags so crews can find them when it is time to leave a world (implanted in some breeds, organic/"natural" in others), and so on. One world has taken this a step further with "kittyjuvenators". An old cat wanders in, the device sedates them, flash-clones what their body was like as a year-old kitten, copies the mind, releases the kitten, and destroys the almost-dead-anyway body. The cats have no identity crisis from this: they culturally accept that the new body is the "real them", even if there is a brief period of adjustment to their new body. As a result, they have lived long enough to interact with human educational technology, learn to read and write (a bit clumsily using claws, but mostly via keyboard), and develop a culture. And grew to wonder just what happened to those tall, massive beings that once cuddled them and set up all these robots that the cats now subsist with. Alongside more serious consequences, licking each other just is not the same as an intense scritching. A party of adventuring cats eventually finds an abandoned human starship - small (by human standards) and forgotten in the exodus. A single human could operate it - and so can the party of cats, after puzzling out and adjusting the ship's controls for around a week. As part of this, the bedroom is converted. Though the large mattress remains, shelves are added for the cats to get up high and rest on, essentially a personal bunk for each feline crew. Scratching posts, auto-scooping/self-cleaning litter boxes, and the other necessities of feline shipboard life are set up,. and life support is tuned to the needs of cats. The result can fairly be described as a "cat house". Thus does the cat crew set off on a voyage of discovery...and eventually of rescue, the descendants of their friends having not fled far enough to escape a danger that never noticed cats. But that is another tale. (During first recontact, the comms officer did not literally ask, "Can we has cuddles?", but it makes for a good meme.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:57:13 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:57:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >> request.) > > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:05:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:05:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The big languages are big messes Actually the most complex languages in the world are spoken by small groups of people who have been isolated from other cultures for a long time, such languages are virtually impossible for adults to learn, even skilled linguists. And even if you're born into the culture it takes children several years longer to achieve full fluency than it does for children living in larger less isolated societies speaking less complex languages. Some of the 832 languages spoken in New Guinea are like this. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:33:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:33:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> References: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >> request.) >> > > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on > average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am > aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero > times. > > > Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest > satellites, no? > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:49:24 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:49:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >>>> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >>>> request.) >>> >>> Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. >> >> Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? > > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. > > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) There?s also flight time, but you?re likely right. Size and duration could up the number above the average LEO to GEO flight, but planning and avoidance could lower that. And given that the investment would be much much larger, I imagine even more effort would be put into reducing the likelihood. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:55:20 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:55:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> References: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >>> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >>> request.) >>> >> >> Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on >> average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am >> aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero >> times. >> >> >> Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest >> satellites, no? >> > > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let > alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. > > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was > literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to > check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and > they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough > to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital > velocities. They still track it.) > > > There?s also flight time, but you?re likely right. Size and duration could > up the number above the average LEO to GEO flight, but planning and > avoidance could lower that. And given that the investment would be much > much larger, I imagine even more effort would be put into reducing the > likelihood. > Given how often people question if such tracking is possible, I suppose I should bolster my point with a link to that service, to prove that it actually exists and is available for anyone (or at least, not just US government people) to use: https://www.space-track.org/documentation#/faq . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 22:35:33 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:35:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: Stuart LaForge wrote: > Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? For parts from earth, flying them to L1 and back to GEO would cost far too much delta V. > That would be above the Van Allen radiation belt. Another possibility might be to construct them in polar orbit. Then the astronauts would only be in the belt 1/3 of the time. The radiation is still way too high. Plus it is much more expensive to launch to polar orbit since you can't take advantage of earth's rotation. Plus the amount of delta-V it would take to plane change from a polar orbit to GEO is excessive. > Since they would know when they would be entering the belt, they would be able to seek shelter inside small shielded compartments or something. I haven't done any calculations on these ideas, so I am just throwing them out there as suggestions. Makes me realize how much unstated background in involved with this topic. Adrian Tymes wrote: > Data source, please? Table in Wikipedia, simple spreadsheet. This problem has been recognized since the late 78s. > That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. Comm satellites have dimensions of meters and an area of tens of square meters. They also go up fast, a few hours. Power satellites have dimensions in the 10 km range, areas in the tens of square km, and (if self powered) take weeks to months to go from LEO to GEO. snip > What are you thinking they are built of, Invar perhaps. > and how do those components get there in ways that fully constructed satellites wouldn't? > For that matter, how are you thinking the components get to LEO, in ways that are collectively cheaper than ground assembly then launching the whole thing to LEO? Ah . . . A power satellite has km scale dimensions, a mass of around 30,000 tons and is flimsy. I don't think a multi km faring or a rocket big enough to put 30,000 tons in LEO is in the cards. > The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, > then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the > construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small > target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann > transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost > of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% > over the cost at 300 km. Have you looked into ion engines for the tug instead of chemical engines? Ion engines are of such low thrust it would spend years going up. Arejets seem to be better suited to the task. Adrian Tymes wrote > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a lunar construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully assembled) from the Moon to GEO. I would say this is way beyond what can be done with existing engineering. Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Close to a million times larger. Adrian Tymes wrote: > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. You also need to factor in that they take weeks rather than an hour to go through the junk. > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) It will not be hard to keep from hitting the big stuff. But there is just too much small stuff to avoid it. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 23:15:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:15:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9594D3E8-61D1-4E23-B9D3-36020393B7FC@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 10:25 AM, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote:? > > Spike, > > You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted > > It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. > > That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. English had those differences, but they faded away.* In fact, ?you? was the polite form and ?thou? was the familiar form for the second person singular pronoun. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst * This has happened and is happening in other languages too. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T?V_distinction -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 23:30:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:30:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:37 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Data source, please? > > Table in Wikipedia, simple spreadsheet. Page? > This problem has been > recognized since the late 78s. > Your problem statement presumes data that substantially conflicts with the data I am aware of. Also, the orbital debris environment has changed significantly since the 1970s (assuming that's what "78s" is a typo for). > That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on > average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am > aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero > times. > > Comm satellites have dimensions of meters and an area of tens of > square meters. They also go up fast, a few hours. Power satellites > have dimensions in the 10 km range, areas in the tens of square km, > and (if self powered) take weeks to months to go from LEO to GEO. > This makes so many assumptions... 1) Slower I can buy. You mean they're using their own power to power ion engines (or arcjets, or other electric rockets) as a cost saving measure, yes? 2) Send them up in smaller pieces, designed to teleassemble on GEO. That way, if one of them does get hit it doesn't take out nearly as much of a satellite - and it has an easier time dodging. 3) If they're self powered, they can carry (or be towed by something with) lasers powerful enough to deflect smaller space debris, and evade large debris (which they should have a lot more warning about). > A power satellite has km scale dimensions, a mass of around > 30,000 tons and is flimsy. I don't think a multi km faring or a > rocket big enough to put 30,000 tons in LEO is in the cards. > You're making a lot of other hardware for this project, why not a 30 k-ton launch vehicle? > > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a > lunar > construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully > assembled) from the Moon to GEO. > > I would say this is way beyond what can be done with existing engineering. > I wouldn't, not given some of the existing engineering I've seen just in the past few months. But then, I may be using a wider version of "existing", considering we're already talking about using many other things that don't already exist but we know how to make them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 13:19:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 06:19:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> The annual huge bike rally at Sturgis South Dakota is going forth. The Sturgis crowd tends to be older people in general, the 50-something and 60-somethings being perhaps the mode. Several of my biker friends are going this year. Sturgis is a biiiig deal to that crowd, their much-anticipated relatively low-cost annual vacation. The theory is that outdoor transmission of covid is rare, but this is a special case. You don't really have enough cargo capacity on a bike to carry your own supplies and be self-contained for even a week, the way I did on my recent 3 week trip with a camper, so they will be at restaurants and hotels. The crowds at the Sturgis events are very closely packed, which is clear from the photos my friend sent. Some are wearing masks outdoors, looks like about maybe 20%. The hotels are booked solid, so it will include some tent camping as that rally always does, but pleeeenty of eating indoors at restaurants. The biker crowd isn't known for caution or for following orders, which is good because South Dakota has taken a mostly hands-off approach: their governor hasn't mandated masks or shut downs in general, but she did shut down public schools (which makes sense.) A lot of South Dakota is Indian reservation, so the chiefs make their own rules on both schools and restaurants on the rez (haven't heard how they are doing.) I just got a note from one of my friends who is there now who has been going to most of the Sturgis rallies for the last 30 yrs, says they are having a blast. They cancelled the opening ceremonies, but the party goes on full throttle. Sturgis is on my list of to-dos, but haven't done yet and mighta stayed back this year out of abundance of caution, even if I hadn't been busy with other matters. There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. Good luck bikers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Aug 8 13:32:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 14:32:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/08/2020 21:55, Dan TheBookMan asked > SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Has anyone considered making many, much smaller, cheaper ones on the ground, that can be launched to high orbit directly, and automatically link up into a grid? Perhaps this could become an industry in itself, churning out small powersats indefinitely. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 15:39:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 08:39:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brady bunch choir Message-ID: <00ae01d66d9a$13239ae0$396ad0a0$@rainier66.com> Nearly every American born in the 1960s knows what this picture is: They might even know a few lines of the jingle, but I think of it when I see my son's Zoom classroom. It creates a matrix of images, in that case with about 30 students rather than these nine thespians (couldn't the L crowd come up with a name that doesn't rhyme with thespian?) Many here probably used Zoom or Google Meets recently. Today we learn that the high school choir and band classes are going ahead over Zoom. If you have used that technology, you already know there is an inherent latency which makes it impossible to do anything in unison, even reciting the scout oath. The whole thing turns into chattery chaos. But. the show goes on. It will be the Brady Bunch Choir, which may never actually get a chance to meet face to face and can't actually sing together. I noticed something interesting: South Dakota, which is a very open-minded state, didn't do all that much with covid restrictions in general, did go ahead and close the schools back in March, and kept them closed. Now we hear they will stay closed in the fall in SD, completely. The covid deaths per capita is about 260 per million in California and about 160 per million proles in South Dakota, which makes those two outfits nearly comparable (because there is a lot of uncertainty about the numbers reported in both places (and the SD numbers include the reservations (which follow their own whims on how the medicine man does his business.))) SD schools will stay closed. In California the decision is mostly at the county health department level. Meanwhile. in the SF Bay, we have a mixed bag. Our schools are partially re-opening next week, as are the schools in the next town to the north, for cases where it can be plausibly argued the student is better off on a possibly dangerous campus than their alternative. I know of at least four cases where I would argue the student damn is better off being physically present on that campus next week. The whole Zoom business, oy vey, better than nothing but that isn't really school. Still, I am in favor of keeping that campus mostly closed for now. We can choose to go to a rogue business staying open in spite of the governor's and county's orders, but that's the business owner's decision and our choice to patronize them or not. The students are required to go to school if the school is open. So. I agree with the advisory committee plurality: stay mostly closed for now. Suggestions welcome, on this forum or offlist. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 16:45:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 09:45:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized Message-ID: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Those of you into car racing in the olden days might remember Steve Saleen. He retired from racing in the early 80s and started making racecars, built up a big company. Sportscar spotters can occasionally see a Saleen S7 growling around, particularly if you hang out in really rich areas (an S7 costs almost a million bucks.) Saleen worked with the Chinese to build high-performance cars in China (well, makes sense, ja? (China must have rich people too (and rich people will want to tear around like their butts are on fire too (wouldn't they? (and sooner or later, they will want car racing too (and will build tracks and drag strips and stuff (the same way we did.))))))) One of my favorite car sites now reports the Chinese government seized Saleen's factory along with the robots and intellectual property: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/steve-saleen-claims-chinese-joint-venture- has-stolen-his-intellectual-property/ This has huge implications: if the Chinese government can seize Saleen's factory and IP, they can seize Elon Musk's factory and IP. If so, the world can buy Chinese-made Teslas cheaper than Musk can build em in Fremont. This is a bad thing for the local lads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 17:14:36 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:14:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: While this specific instance is news, the trend isn't. Operating a factory in China is always a gamble against their seizing your stuff and becoming a competitor using your tech. They've been doing this kind of thing for ages. They have rule of autocrats, more than rule of law. On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Those of you into car racing in the olden days might remember Steve > Saleen. He retired from racing in the early 80s and started making > racecars, built up a big company. Sportscar spotters can occasionally see > a Saleen S7 growling around, particularly if you hang out in really rich > areas (an S7 costs almost a million bucks.) > > > > Saleen worked with the Chinese to build high-performance cars in China > (well, makes sense, ja? (China must have rich people too (and rich people > will want to tear around like their butts are on fire too (wouldn?t they? > (and sooner or later, they will want car racing too (and will build tracks > and drag strips and stuff (the same way we did.))))))) > > > > One of my favorite car sites now reports the Chinese government seized > Saleen?s factory along with the robots and intellectual property: > > > > > https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/steve-saleen-claims-chinese-joint-venture-has-stolen-his-intellectual-property/ > > > > This has huge implications: if the Chinese government can seize Saleen?s > factory and IP, they can seize Elon Musk?s factory and IP. If so, the > world can buy Chinese-made Teslas cheaper than Musk can build em in > Fremont. This is a bad thing for the local lads. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 17:24:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:24:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] saleen's company seized >?While this specific instance is news, the trend isn't. Operating a factory in China is always a gamble against their seizing your stuff and becoming a competitor using your tech. They've been doing this kind of thing for ages. >?They have rule of autocrats, more than rule of law? Adrian Ja thanks for that, I think you are right Adrian. Your company is mostly intellectual property, so you have inherent credibility on the riskiness of manufacturing stuff in China (speculating you have considered the benefits/risks of making CubeSat products there.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 17:41:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:41:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ja thanks for that, I think you are right Adrian. Your company is mostly > intellectual property, so you have inherent credibility on the riskiness of > manufacturing stuff in China (speculating you have considered the > benefits/risks of making CubeSat products there.) > 1) We don't make CubeSats. Our customers make them; we launch them. (We could in theory launch Chinese-made CubeSats, but the US government would likely insist on inspecting them, during import via customs, to make sure they're not weapons.) 2) It's not even a choice for us. Our products are regulated under ITAR precisely to prevent us from seriously considering making them in China (or most other places outside the US), because the US government knows quite well that the Chinese (and several other governments) would rip us off in a heartbeat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 17:46:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:46:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> References: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011401d66dab$d73e2e20$85ba8a60$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: sturgis rolls on >.The annual huge bike rally at Sturgis South Dakota is going forth. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes.Good luck bikers. spike If what I understand about covid is correct, this rally damn sure should be a super-spreader event: https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/08/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-draws-huge-crowd-loc al-bar/ Much of the event is outdoors, lots of burger grilling and beer swilling, outdoor picnic style dining, coat and tie not required, just a bit on the informal side. But there is also plenty of indoor crowded sports-bar-style drinking, cheering at the wet T-shirt contest and so forth, but here's the thing: the authorities can't be blamed. The Sturgis crowd is coming anyway, never mind if the rally is cancelled, no matter if it is illegal. That crowd gives not a damn what the governor or POTUS or the county sheriff thinks (they can't arrest a quarter of a million bikers.) If this rally doesn't cause a big breakout, then I don't understand why. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 18:08:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:08:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013701d66dae$ec0dc1f0$c42945d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?1) We don't make CubeSats. Our customers make them; we launch them? Adrian Well ja, but if you get the launcher biz all worked out, you will find the same thing the other space companies did: the real money is in the payloads. Reasoning, as the launcher designer, you already know exactly how to test the payloads, how to interface the payload to your launcher, how to minimize weight, how to get the most bang for your customer?s buck and all that, particularly because you can hire locals who have lots of experience who will work cheap because they never found suitable jobs after the 2009 experience in Sunnyvale. The bread is in the bird, not in the nest. Adrian note please: I am not discouraging your efforts, on the contrary, I am encouraging it heartily and cheerfully. Without the nest, there is no bird. Just sayin? if you work out that launcher biz, there are a hundred ways to make money on designing, optimizing and integrating payloads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 8 18:40:59 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2020 11:40:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers > come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next > week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla > weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. As long as the bikers stay out nursing homes, everything should be fine. Sturgis is just for a few days long and then they will return to their home states and contribute to herd-immunity. The longer the lockdown continues, the more people will develop obesity, diabetes, and other underlying conditions that render them susceptible to the virus as well as put them more at risk of death in general. And if allowed to continue for too long, the lockdown could wind up killing more people than the virus in the long run. Factor in the stress from job-loss, evictions, poverty, depression, suicide, and homelessness and the lockdown itself become a public health nightmare. The virus only kills the susceptible. The lockdown, on the other hand, is killing everybody. The sooner we put this pandemic behind us by way herd-immunity, vaccination, or mass civil-disobedience, the better. Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 20:09:52 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:09:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> On Aug 8, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:? > Quoting Spike: > > >> There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers >> come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next >> week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla >> weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. > > I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. > > https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes > https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count > > The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. As long as the bikers stay out nursing homes, everything should be fine. Sturgis is just for a few days long and then they will return to their home states and contribute to herd-immunity. The longer the lockdown continues, the more people will develop obesity, diabetes, and other underlying conditions that render them susceptible to the virus as well as put them more at risk of death in general. And if allowed to continue for too long, the lockdown could wind up killing more people than the virus in the long run. Factor in the stress from job-loss, evictions, poverty, depression, suicide, and homelessness and the lockdown itself become a public health nightmare. The virus only kills the susceptible. The lockdown, on the other hand, is killing everybody. > > The sooner we put this pandemic behind us by way herd-immunity, vaccination, or mass civil-disobedience, the better. > > Stuart LaForge A 23% difference in death rate doesn?t seem like the difference between normal and spicy cold to me. They?re almost comparable rates. So, if all bikers were to get the virus and die at that rate from it, it would almost double their death rate. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 20:47:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:47:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] sturgis rolls on On Aug 8, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote:? Quoting Spike: >>>?There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next week? spike >>?I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count >>?The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. ?Stuart LaForge Stuart, a couple in my own biker group (in their late 60s) caught covid in April. They agree, it completely whooped their asses for about a month, just flattened them both. Even for tough biker dudes and chicks, this is a really bad flu. >?A 23% difference in death rate doesn?t seem like the difference between normal and spicy cold to me. They?re almost comparable rates. So, if all bikers were to get the virus and die at that rate from it, it would almost double their death rate. Regards, Dan OK let?s focus please on a question that has me thinking overtime and triple-time because I have some responsibility for what I recommend. There is no politics involved because the bikers were coming to Sturgis anyway, regardless of who did what. There is no known mechanism for compelling them to quarantine when they return from the rally. You can ask them to, but there?s nothing we can do if they refuse, and plenty of them will refuse. So the lawman is out of the loop for the most part, particularly after they never bothered to try to enforce masks or quarantines on those returning from rioting, burning and looting. That?s different for some reason. OK then, bikers in Sturgis right now, one hell of a lot of em, quarter of a million, looootta lotta close contact, partying, lotta drinking, smoking that wacky terbacky and such as that. Lotta representation in the people in their 60s and 70s, pleeeenty of married couples, so either one catching it will give it to the other. That looks like a recipe for catastrophe. My understanding is that outdoor contact is relatively low-risk compared to indoor contact, but this rally has plenty of both. We could end up with a dataset where we can compare people who were at the same event, some outdoors the whole time (refusing to go inside anywhere (that is one of your options at Stugis)) and those who did the indoor events at every opportunity. There is another reason I am very interested. My own biker group is meeting at Sturgis three weeks from now. We intentionally set our rally for after school starts. The room rate is waaaay lower once the Harley guys leave. I had already decided to not go this year (for reasons unrelated to covid (it was before anyone ever heard of it (too many other obligations with school stuff.))) My biker group is even older on average than the Sturgis crowd. I am the kid at nearly 60. Our leader of the pack turned 80 last month. He wants to go ahead with it. So? we go. With three weeks lead time, if I know how to extract the signal and I do the math right, I aughta be able to offer some guidance to my own biker friends on the wisdom of hitting Sturgis three weeks after the big event. The crowds will be waaaaay down, and we are not hard-drinking types. Drugs are not seen at our events at all. But we are an older and more fragile crowd than the Harley dudes. Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. Help us ExI-wan Kenobi! You?re my only hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45264 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 21:10:01 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 22:10:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 21:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > With three weeks lead time, if I know how to extract the signal and I do the math right, I aughta be able to offer some guidance to my own biker friends on the wisdom of hitting Sturgis three weeks after the big event. The crowds will be waaaaay down, and we are not hard-drinking types. Drugs are not seen at our events at all. But we are an older and more fragile crowd than the Harley dudes. > > Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Well, bikers are not exactly popular with the media and the media enjoy broadcasting the Covid panic, so I would expect any new virus wave to have headlines in every newspaper and TV news channel. No research needed. BillK. From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 22:43:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 15:43:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <002201d66dd5$64899c50$2d9cd4f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] sturgis rolls on On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 21:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >>. Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >.Well, bikers are not exactly popular with the media and the media enjoy broadcasting the Covid panic, so I would expect any new virus wave to have headlines in every newspaper and TV news channel. No research needed. BillK. _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, On the contrary sir, for part of it: agreed media love to broadcast covid panic, but disagree bikers are not exactly popular. Bikers are generally popular in the mainstream press: we get killed a lot, giving them something exciting to write about, as well as we help supply perfectly good organs, which also results in heartwarming stories by donor recipients. I plan to donate my brain to Alcor, give the usable organs of it to anyone who wants it, and have the rest of the junk fed to the ants. But I digress. The problem with that media approach is that it is too subjective, which is why information coming from the mainstream press isn't particularly useful. They are also generally contradictory. We are told some South Dakota political rally on 4 July resulted in a covid wave but I can't see it. Can you? These numbers are pretty typical of other surrounding states with different policies (South Dakota is filled with Swedish people and they do things there Swedish style (the government didn't demand shutdowns generally.)) They didn't actually say what they meant by "surge," But I grew suspicious when the same outlets claimed the political rally caused a surge in cases but the riots did not. Dubious. How did the virus know which was which? Both events look like a virus playground to me. I did notice South Dakota reports zero recoveries, even though the early cases were back five months ago. I dug a little and discovered what that means: in order to be recorded as recovered, the antibodies must be undetectable. By that reasoning, there are zero recoveries to date, and any fatality with any co-morbidity, such as some drunken Harley rider embedding herself in the grill of a Peterbilt can be counted as a Covid fatality so long as she has detectable covid antibodies (ensuring the local hospital gets paid (do pardon my cynical attitude please (we are harming ourselves and distorting otherwise useful data with that payment model.))) What we need is to create a database of Sturgis-goers, see if we can account for some percentage of them, verify two weeks from now if they were catchers or non-catchers. I know of four people who are now at the rally. Could we organize a Friends-of-Sturgis online effort, create a data deposit site, where we could try to account for them? Then create a control group, ideally in the same age-bracket, of stay-at-homers, calculate a ratio of catchers to non-catchers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 43929 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 01:54:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 20:54:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus Message-ID: Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, die of. Anyone know? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 02:24:37 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 19:24:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that a clogged/failing respiratory system, thus inability to breathe, is the primary vector. On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 6:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, > die of. Anyone know? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 18:32:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:32:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A81DEC-920E-4CED-AA92-04A0DC09339B@gmail.com> Also stroke, heart attack. SR Ballard > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > My understanding is that a clogged/failing respiratory system, thus inability to breathe, is the primary vector. > >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 6:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, die of. Anyone know? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 18:45:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 11:45:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools Message-ID: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> A few days ago I asked BillK how our British friends were doing their schools. As I recall he expressed vague skepticism perhaps. I saw this today. Boris wants the schools open. He doesn?t have the authority to make them open as far as I know (not sure how the British system works (the queen can?t just order off with their heads the way they did back in the old days.)) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8607987/BORIS-JOHNSON-Keeping-schools-closed-longer-necessary-intolerable.html Sounds like their political system with schools is like the US in a lotta ways. Somehow those British schools teach them to talk like the Beatles. Damned if I can figure out how they do that, but it seems to work somehow. This leaves me with a remaining question. If American kids hafta take English classes, do English kids hafta take American classes? The mind boggles. Actually that wasn?t my remaining question. We are still seeing big numbers in both USA and UK and both countries are facing some pretty similar problems. There aughta be a way to learn from each other. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 18:50:27 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:50:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange seen. I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty extensive: https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 9:25 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > Thanks. Again, I'm out of my element, and will defer to the EXPERTS on > this one! > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have >> been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud >> and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? >> Dylan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. >> >> >> >> There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a >> yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. >> From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the >> color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a >> really small nuke. >> >> >> >> Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some >> bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of >> bombing Beirut. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:19:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:19:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. * > Yes there was no heat flash as you'd get in even a small nuke, and at most this was a 2.7 KT explosion, and probably half of that. *> Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some > bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer* > It's even worse than that, apparently some mega bonehead decided that the perfect place to store his 40 bags of fireworks we're on top of 2,750 tons of ammonium nitrate! Video shows there are actually two explosions, a smaller one that seems to be the fireworks going off, and then about 20 seconds later a vastly larger explosion. John K Clar > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 20:08:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:08:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious Message-ID: Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 20:42:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:42:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 3 kt? An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange seen. I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty extensive: https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 Hi Dylan, I have some more study and calculation to do, but that site you posted has some really useful info, such as a way to estimate the velocity of that shock wave. I need to study the size of those buildings in the photo to see if I can estimate how far the boat is from the blast, then I can estimate the time it takes the wave to arrive at the boat, to pick off a velocity. Regarding yellow smoke for ammonium nitrate: I would interpret the big reddish column as other stuff burning before the heat ever reached the ammonium nitrate. It wouldn?t be burning NH4NO3, then exploding. I would think the stuff would explode as soon as any of it got hot enough, then that detonates the rest of it. Dunno man. We have some measurements and calculations to do before we know for sure, but it looks consistent with ammonium nitrate to me. Granted 3000 tons of the stuff is a lotta fertilizer. That would take a lotta room to store all that, so it would hafta be a big warehouse. Those are some astonishing videos. Lotsa physics in explosions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 21:20:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?Actually that wasn?t my remaining question. We are still seeing big numbers in both USA and UK and both countries are facing some pretty similar problems. There aughta be a way to learn from each other?spike Knowing that staying back from school has its own (sometimes severe) costs in quality of life, still I have failed to convince myself to change my stance: it sure looks to me like in-person learning at the high school presents a hell of a risk, and I am unable to recommend it, even though I see the benefits. I hear that young people are less susceptible, sure OK. I accept that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. But I still reject the notion that classroom-filling is anywhere near safe enough with these numbers. I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. Suggestions welcome. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 21:24:47 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:24:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I've seen the theory floated that Hezbollah were indeed storing missiles next to the confiscated ammonium nitrate ["fireworks", my left gluteus!] because A ) they knew Israel wouldn't hit an arms depot there for fear of setting off the ammonium nitrate and/or B ) the ammonium nitrate was intended to be a component of the missile warheads. Either way, the people of Beirut seem to have some legitimate grievances against their government and their government's violent friends. The one blessing in all of this is that at only ~150 casualties, this could easily have been a /lot/ worse. On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 2:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 3 kt? > > > > An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the > claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange > seen. > > > > I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty > extensive: > > > > https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dylan, > > > > I have some more study and calculation to do, but that site you posted has > some really useful info, such as a way to estimate the velocity of that > shock wave. I need to study the size of those buildings in the photo to > see if I can estimate how far the boat is from the blast, then I can > estimate the time it takes the wave to arrive at the boat, to pick off a > velocity. > > > > Regarding yellow smoke for ammonium nitrate: I would interpret the big > reddish column as other stuff burning before the heat ever reached the > ammonium nitrate. It wouldn?t be burning NH4NO3, then exploding. I would > think the stuff would explode as soon as any of it got hot enough, then > that detonates the rest of it. > > > > Dunno man. We have some measurements and calculations to do before we > know for sure, but it looks consistent with ammonium nitrate to me. > Granted 3000 tons of the stuff is a lotta fertilizer. That would take a > lotta room to store all that, so it would hafta be a big warehouse. > > > > Those are some astonishing videos. Lotsa physics in explosions. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 9 22:19:10 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:19:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:24:47 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 23:24:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 22:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Knowing that staying back from school has its own (sometimes severe) costs in quality of life, still I have failed to convince myself to change my stance: it sure looks to me like in-person learning at the high school presents a hell of a risk, and I am unable to recommend it, even though I see the benefits. > > I hear that young people are less susceptible, sure OK. I accept that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. But I still reject the notion that classroom-filling is anywhere near safe enough with these numbers. I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. > > _______________________________________________ I think I agree. I would let other schools reopen first and see what the results are. It might be safe, it might not be. What always worries me when experts talk about only 0.1% risk of death is that it is actually 100% for the children who die and 0% for the rest. That might be fine for the risk of catching a cold, but for death - not so good. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 23:08:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:08:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014201d66ea2$0b7320a0$225961e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] how is uk handling schools On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 22:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. > > _______________________________________________ >...I think I agree. I would let other schools reopen first and see what the results are. It might be safe, it might not be. What always worries me when experts talk about only 0.1% risk of death is that it is actually 100% for the children who die and 0% for the rest. That might be fine for the risk of catching a cold, but for death - not so good. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK, I agree. We have some data from Georgia just coming in: apparently a school did open and they now have 9 new cases. Your comment about headmasters really rang true. The California governor can order the schools to close but cannot order them to open. The county can likewise set standards unlikely to be met by public schools (private schools can start back up (some are)) which is the functional equivalent of having the authority to order schools closed. But when both of those guys give the go-ahead, the local superintendent and principal (our headmasters) must agree that school is safe before they can be re-stuffed with students who are required to go to school, in some capacity. So... for now, we are bringing the challenged cases back to the classrooms, but it will be about 20% capacity, which is OK in my view, and is likely the best available compromise. Even with that, there is a risk, but we cannot escape risk. As if there are not already enough levels of subtlety and complexity, we are wrestling with what happens if a student is assigned to study at home, then disengages? It is unclear how to call a student to campus after the school year has started. That is not my concern at this point however. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 15:56:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:56:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= Message-ID: Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 16:19:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:19:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark I came to similar conclusions in April, not just because the tests are unreliable but because not everyone gets tested (I still haven?t (fortunately I haven?t perished yet either.)) Furthermore, the results vary so much, the data just doesn?t make sense. The tests done during autopsies are reliable however, for they test for antibodies. Furthermore, the results are far more consistent with each other. Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita. We accept that it introduces uncertainty from the whole WITH vs OF ambiguity, but a reasonable estimate can be made by subtracting average background death rate from 2020 death rate and assume +/- about 20%. Then we assume that these excess fatalities really were covid-related. Granted that the new fatality rate includes increased suicides related to failed businesses, dramatically increased murder rate in the inner cities and so on, but one can argue that those (in a sense) are covid related, if we also argue that the riots are also (indirectly) covid-related (sorta) because the death that kicked off riot season, George Floyd, died with covid. Data jockeys, is the death rate in your state or nation different this year from the average of the last 5 years? By how much? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 16:40:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:40:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 9:19 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark ? >?Data jockeys, is the death rate in your state or nation different this year from the average of the last 5 years? By how much?...spike This site says in the US, about 860 fatalities per 100k proles: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Since the start of covid, the Worldometer site says 165,766 in the USA have perished of or with covid, so do let us skip the whole ?that?s data from half an hour ago? silliness and just estimate it will be about 170,000 a few minutes from now. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ There is little reason to labor past 2 significant digits for this exercise, for it is an estimate. The USA has a population of about 330 million, so if we take about 170k, divide by 330M, multiply by 100k, I am getting an excess death rate of about 50 fatalties per 100k over the average of about 860, which we can presume is somehow related to covid. So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 17:01:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:01:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a001d66f37$ef31efc0$cd95cf40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. spike Interesting exercise: ask your friends and online contacts to estimate the increase in fatalities from covid. Have them guess at it, not calculate it. Reason: I just asked my bride and my son, first to estimate the background fatality rate. Both said about 1000 per 100k, not bad at all, since the world-data sites say 860. Mortality rates everywhere can be expected at about 1000 per 100k, somewhere around there. What do you think they guessed for the mortality rate this year? First guess what you think they guessed, then here?s the answer: my bride guessed 1500, my son about 1400. So they think covid will increase mortality by about half again over background. I am getting about 6 to 7%. My own bride, who is an engineer, missed by nearly an order of magnitude. I am eager to cut her a little slack, for she is just young enough to never have used a slide rule. Do post to your friends and on-liners, ask them to make a guess please. Fun exercise: see if there is any detectable correlation between their answers and their news sources. Post to your friends who are medics, see if they get closer, and if so, by how much. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 17:03:59 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:03:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > This site says in the US, about 860 fatalities per 100k proles: > > https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm > > Since the start of covid, the Worldometer site says 165,766 in the USA have perished of or with covid, so do let us skip the whole ?that?s data from half an hour ago? silliness and just estimate it will be about 170,000 a few minutes from now. > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ > > There is little reason to labor past 2 significant digits for this exercise, for it is an estimate. > > The USA has a population of about 330 million, so if we take about 170k, divide by 330M, multiply by 100k, I am getting an excess death rate of about 50 fatalties per 100k over the average of about 860, which we can presume is somehow related to covid. > > So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. > > UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us? > > spike > _______________________________________________ This might help - Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19 Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Updated August 5, 2020 ------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 18:08:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:08:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d66f41$32159180$9640b480$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us?... spike > _______________________________________________ This might help - Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19 Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Updated August 5, 2020 ------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! Looks like somewhere in the 10% range is fairly typical, some states doing pretty well. What happens if we take the Johns Hopkins data and repeat with UK? Can we use about 1000 fatalities /kprole as a baseline there? If so, I see the Statista site, which I have found very reliable, is saying UK is suffering about 70 fatalities per 100k, so that 7%-ish excess fatalities estimate works there too. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/ Has anyone asked friends and online acquaintances to estimate the impact of covid on overall fatality rate? Has anyone gotten a number that looks anything like 6 to 7%? If I use the Johns Hopkins site and go for total world deaths, and use the 1000 fatalities per kprole estimate, I am getting about 10 covid excess fatalities per 100k population or about a 1% increase. This number is rising as Brazil is being hammered brutally (and they don't even have an economic incentive to over-report.) Have your friends estimate that excess rate in Europe, in the US, then the planet please, then report your results. This should be interesting. spike From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:12:30 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:12:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools Message-ID: To reopen this fall, the average school district will spend more than $1.77 million to cover costs, such as cleaning, staff to help implement health and safety protocols, and personal protective equipment. ----------------------- The article includes a list of what they are spending money on, so might be helpful for reopening. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:25:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:25:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote *Subject:* [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >> > > *I came to similar conclusions in April, * > Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus. *> Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita.* > But you won't even accept that evidence that this pandemic is serious business, you'll just say the excess deaths were caused not by the virus but by people dying from a broken heart because liberals forced them to shut down their businesses. It seems there are no logical contortions some people will not undergo if that's what it takes to avoid changing their worldview in any way. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:29:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:29:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Physics of the explosion Message-ID: https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=86b34a9516-briefing-dy-20200810&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-86b34a9516-44834745 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:36:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:15 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: This might help - > > Thanks, and yes that certainly does help. So the theory that the pandemic has not increased the overall death rate joins the Luminiferous Aether, the Phlogiston theory of heat, Lysenko's genetics, and other non-viable ideas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 18:41:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:41:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201d66f45$edb8dbf0$c92a93d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 11:13 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools >...To reopen this fall, the average school district will spend more than $1.77 million to cover costs, such as cleaning, staff to help implement health and safety protocols, and personal protective equipment. ----------------------- The article includes a list of what they are spending money on, so might be helpful for reopening. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! We are rassling with the same questions here, such as: If the schools do not reopen, will the California taxpayers enjoy a rebate of half their funds? BillK, your countryman Mr. Jeeves offers a hint on that: http://www.frockflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/StephenFry-Jeeves1.gif No, sir. Our powerful teachers union wishes to be paid, regardless of whether or not they are actually instructing live students. There is a chance the teachers will go on strike however, for the union chief is demanding the school districts contribute to the global warming fund. The superintendent is writhing and groveling: Oh please oh please, teaching staff do not go on strike, anything but that ok maybe just for a month or three we will say nice things about you to your successors. So... there is that tantalizing possibility of steep a reduction in expenses, however I don't see it happening. Even in the event of a teacher walkout, Mr. Jeeves thinks a tax rebate as most unlikely. If you will pardon me, I am off to the local high school to help distribute textbooks. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:02:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:02:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol and evolution was just curious Message-ID: Henry Rivera wrote: > >I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? I would be surprised if there is much of a correlation. However, there is a strong correlation between the length of time a population has been exposed to alcohol and the number of people who are adversely affected by it. Races who have been exposed for thousands of years tend to be resistant, and in some cases, we know why right down to the genetic level. Asian peoples very often have a defective dehydrogenase gene so they can't clear the alcohol very fast and get quite sick if they have more than one or two drinks. The French seem to have a high tolerance for the stuff. The peoples who got agriculture (and alcohol) more recently, Irish and Russians, for example, have more problems with it. Native Americans are badly affected, the classic case being the Navahoes. Greenland natives are about 95% alcoholics. If they have it, they can't control their use of it. Makes sense, of course. Being an alcoholic is not good for your genes. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:48:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:48:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol and evolution was just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny- I have read some about the French and their attitude towards alcohol. They raise their children with, at first, very diluted wine, slowly undiluting it as they grow older. Their attitude towards alcoholics is scorn. When I was there the issue of drinking too much came up and one person pointed South, towards Italy, and said that if I wanted problem drinkers I had to look no further than the Italians. The grass may be greener on the other side of the fence, but the people are always inferior. Eysenck's data shows strong correlations between sedation threshold and introversion/extroversion. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:05 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Henry Rivera wrote: > > > >I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > > > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between > introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? > > I would be surprised if there is much of a correlation. > > However, there is a strong correlation between the length of time a > population has been exposed to alcohol and the number of people who > are adversely affected by it. > > Races who have been exposed for thousands of years tend to be > resistant, and in some cases, we know why right down to the genetic > level. Asian peoples very often have a defective dehydrogenase gene > so they can't clear the alcohol very fast and get quite sick if they > have more than one or two drinks. The French seem to have a high > tolerance for the stuff. The peoples who got agriculture (and > alcohol) more recently, Irish and Russians, for example, have more > problems with it. > > Native Americans are badly affected, the classic case being the > Navahoes. Greenland natives are about 95% alcoholics. If they have > it, they can't control their use of it. > > Makes sense, of course. Being an alcoholic is not good for your genes. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 10 20:51:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Physics of the explosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-10 11:29, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=86b34a9516-briefing-dy-20200810&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-86b34a9516-44834745 I like to strip unnecessary tags, especially utm_*. https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/ -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon Aug 10 22:16:23 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:16:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more I?m sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t accessible and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the moment to summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if they think the group would be interested. https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 -Henry >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera wrote: >> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >> >>>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ? >>> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 22:38:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:38:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for your time, Henry. I'll read and report. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:18 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more I?m > sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t accessible > and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the moment to > summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if they think > the group would be interested. > > > https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 > > https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ > > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 > > -Henry > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera > wrote: > >> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >> >> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between >> introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 22:42:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:42:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 11:26 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? I came to similar conclusions in April, Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? I agree with that. I have never seen testing as an effective tool for this. I haven?t seen these tests available at the drug store. I don?t even know where I would get one. Even if I could, I don?t know how we would protect against counterfeit test kits. Do you? >>? Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita. >?But you won't even accept that evidence that this pandemic is serious business? I do accept that this pandemic is serious business. >? you'll just say the excess deaths were caused not by the virus but by people dying from a broken heart? I am not saying that. We can assume the excess deaths in 2020 were caused by covid. I have no argument with it. >?because liberals forced them to shut down their businesses? I didn?t say anything about that because I have no indications on the political leanings of the county health departments and principals who made those calls. They aren?t elected officials. I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill Gates, the people who are making and selling covid test kits or the people deciding if it is safe to open the schools, the final decision being that of the principal. The principal and I have never discussed politics, so I have no idea where he is on that. I never discussed political matters with the superintendent either. Everything isn?t politics. Sometimes it isn?t an opportunity, it really is only a crisis. >?It seems there are no logical contortions some people will not undergo if that's what it takes to avoid changing their worldview in any way? John K Clark Nothing I have seen in this dataset challenges my world view in the least. I agree fast tests are good. I don?t know where to get those. Do you? Do tell. Regardless of fast test or no test, the number we need to watch in order to make the call on schools will be fatalities per capita. That one isn?t subject to the whims of who tests and who does not. The coroner tests every customer, and all she needs to do is find antibodies to consider her customer a covid death. That kit is highly reliable and there are enough of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:09:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:09:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE Message-ID: *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* *bill w* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:26:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:26:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Report on Henry's articles: while all were interesting, and some correlations were found between alcohol use and personality, there were no data on the sedation threshold - which is to just how much alcohol does it take to get to a certain degree of drunkenness, which is what my original question was about. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:38 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Thank you for your time, Henry. I'll read and report. bill w > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:18 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more >> I?m sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t >> accessible and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the >> moment to summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if >> they think the group would be interested. >> >> >> https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 >> >> https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five >> >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis >> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ >> >> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 >> >> -Henry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera >> wrote: >> >>> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between >>> introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:50:39 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:50:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used > against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the > police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, > that is one of the things we need to change. > > ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not concerned about rubber bullets. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:57:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:57:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have a link to the underlying data? On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn > statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are > allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of > Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. > Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that > has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking > mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning > the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All > of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties > wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily > COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear > decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says > that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. > ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening > the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* > > *bill w* > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:58:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:58:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] #RebootThePolice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: after being a cop for about two years [elided] He was convicted and sent > to prison > ### This tells us something about the system, no? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 02:08:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:08:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101d66f84$541ad860$fc508920$@rainier66.com> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Covidiots for Science: Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that has turned the state into a ?natural experiment? bill w Cases like this do provide useful data. We should be focusing a lot of attention on how to collect it, how to interpret it, how to use it for the questions which remain, specifically about when or if to reopen schools, and if so, will masks help, etc. We will get another useful dataset soon, with regard to schools: some of them open this week in California. Our local high school will not open, but we had registration today, where I volunteered to help direct traffic, distribute texts, disrupt major felonies, that sorta thing. Might be a minor spreader event. That bike rally sure looks to me like it should be a super-spreader event, but I fear we are failing to collect useful data from it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:25:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:25:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:02 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *If Trump wins US astronauts will probably walk on the Moon before the >> end of the decade. [...] If Trump loses, good bye Artemis and the hope to >> return to the Moon.* > > > Good. At this point in our technological development I see little point in > sending astronauts to the moon and even less to Mars. > ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. I would consider emigrating to the Moon if cryonic suspension was available there. In the polar regions there are cold traps with stable subsurface temperatures estimated at 38K. This is a potentially highly stable, long-term protected burial space for people interested in the far future. An important issue is the potential for rapid sociological change that could be achieved on the Moon by self-selection and controlled immigration into new political entities only weakly associated with telluric powers. Our enemies' assaults would be thwarted by space and distance while we proceed with the transformations Extropians have dreamed of for a long time. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlatorra at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:27:16 2020 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:27:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki - Exactly right. Videos show a lot of violence coming from those supposedly "peaceful" protesters. Mike L. On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:51 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used >> against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the >> police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, >> that is one of the things we need to change. >> >> ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist > militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country > in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not > concerned about rubber bullets. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:33:16 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:33:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Urban density and coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 4:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: USA, Brazil and the UK, and all three have a similar type of leader right > now, totalitarian and dumb. > ### That's dumb. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:57:49 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:57:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Message-ID: When people cite numbers as to how many have died from COVID-19, I wish you would qualify it with "so far." The thing which has driven most of the response is the future prospects and not the current death or infection rates. Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:03:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:03:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] It is troubling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 5:18 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's very troubling to see scientists overtly wading into politics lately > between this and that idiotic #defundSTEM movement, and top tier > publications like Nature and Science carrying water for them. > ### It is very troubling. There used to be a time when STEM scientists were reluctant to wade into politics, the occasional Manhattan Project notwithstanding. Now it seems that the corruption that started in the English lit and sociology departments and swept over college administration now is infecting STEM. They say that power corrupts. I think they have it ass-backwards: Power attracts the corrupt. The corrupt corrupt everything they touch. The state in its pure, halcyon days had a bit of power, attracted the corrupt and it was corrupted. As it became corrupt it amassed more power, because the corrupt desire it more than anything. As its power spreads, it engulfs and corrupts greater areas in the flesh of our society. Scientists acquired a taste for the polluted monies printed by the corrupt, and so became corrupt as well. Now the corrupt are speaking out loud, and the timid timidly go along, hoping to be spared for the time being. You notice the repetitive cadence of my writing. It alludes to the waves of decay that reverberate through the telluric realms, always battering at our minds. The decay seems to be a bit worse than usual. Will it be repaired or will it feedback into death and destruction? Hard to tell. It is troubling. The Moon beckons. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:18:50 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:18:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] school proposal In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d64960$b28d48a0$17a7d9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am in Central Mississippi. I did read this morning that Alabama was one > of the states reporting higher rates of infections. But it's going to be > all over if people won't wash their hands and use masks. Experts say that > we are still in the first phase and are getting impatient way too soon. > ### Our experts know that masks are just for show: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/fauci-throws-pitch-start-major-league-baseball-season-200723222152020.html but when they forget people are still watching they take them off: https://techstartups.com/2020/07/24/dr-fauci-seen-not-wearing-mask-washington-nationals-game-lecturing-us-wear-face-mask-public-areas/ There is absolutely no evidence that procedural masks, much less the stupid cloth masks, meaningfully reduce Wuhan virus spread, except in some select situations. Now, interestingly, as Americans in their sheeple-like masses achieved 95% mask compliance, Wuhan infection cases skyrocketed. Coincidence? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:58:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:58:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Masked heroes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:56 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > spike jones Wrote: > > > *USA is big number 9 if we go by death rates per capita.* > > > Given the recent explosively huge COVID-19 Infection rate spike I think > there is little to no chance of that number remaining as low as 9 for long. > > ### Now a month and a half later, the US is.... at #8. Interestingly, Sweden, that lawless nest of science-deniers, has half the total confirmed per capita cases of the US, which is home of the heroes who bravely venture to the grocery store wearing their silly masks. Rafal Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:01:13 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:01:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Russians bots at work again? In-Reply-To: References: <20200627224022.Horde.bQy9bA5r_S7kb8A23jcIbrQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:48 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Yes, but also because Putin wants to keep his puppet stooge in power for > at least the next 4 years, and after that Don Junior could take over and > start a dynasty. > ### This is dumb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:03:15 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:03:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just a idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I wonder what the reaction would be if they remade the movie Gone With The > Wind with an all black cast except for three or four sweet but stupid white > submissive slaves used for comic relief. > ### There would be no riots. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:18:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:18:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Japanese mystery: why so few COVID cases? In-Reply-To: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:30 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > https://www.embopress.org/doi/10.15252/emmm.202012481?fbclid=IwAR3YClOFxx3Vy6hOD0VqLCynrTxRQxrUigVvLfMhkxRqHPxST9VdEhGWSlk& > > --------------Excerpt------------------------------------------ > Despite early exposure, its dense and aging population, and little > social distancing measures, Japan reports low infection and low death > from COVID?19. Here, we speculate on and discuss the possible reasons > that may account for this anomaly. > > There is a lot of interest brewing as to why Japan has such low > numbers of confirmed infected cases of the COVID?19 disease, caused by > the SARS?CoV?2 virus (Fig 1), despite its high population density > (over 6,100 persons/sqkm in Tokyo, 2.4 times higher than New York > City) and large percentage of high?risk individuals over 65 years of > age (about 26%, compared with 15% in the USA). In Singapore and Hong > Kong, rapid and strict quarantine rules and contact tracing have > helped to ?flatten the curve?. In South Korea, mass testing and > quarantine measures appear to have reduced the rate of new cases. > However, Japan has not engaged in expansive testing, contact tracing, > or strict quarantine measures and yet is reporting a slow growth rate > of infected persons and a death rate that is currently just 1/10th of > world average. It is difficult to make direct comparison of infection > rates, because the number of tests per capita varies dramatically > between countries. However, this low death rate cannot be simply > explained by lack of testing or reporting, as no surge in death from > respiratory syndromes has been reported either. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is it due to differences in the prevalence of underlying conditions? > This one has me stumped. > > ### Graphs of per capita cumulative infections and deaths on https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&casesMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=~USA&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc are incredibly interesting. Why are there orders of magnitude differences between countries that are presumably providing reasonably honest statistics, so we are talking about actual differences rather than fakery? There is hardly any pattern - high-density population, mask wearing, lockdowns don't seem to be correlated to outcomes, or at least are swamped by other, order of magnitude more powerful factors. Race may play a role - South-East Asians, the Han, seem to be doing much better on average, than Europeans and Africans outside of Africa. But even among Europeans there are enormous differences that are hard to pin on something specific. My guess is that there are regional differences in the rates of pre-existing immunity to Covid-19, driven by rates of prevalent coronavirus infections, and perhaps by race. There are some genetic determinants of response to coronavirus infections. That's why the Japanese can survive their metro while the New Yorkers get wiped out in theirs. My Nebula account told me I don't have the protective alleles, so my personal genetic risk of being harmed by the Wuhan virus is slightly above average. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:22:10 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:22:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Japanese mystery: why so few COVID cases? In-Reply-To: References: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6D2D891E-6234-4A78-BE18-42C24D84CEDA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 6:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *> Well, there are some differences: - masks are more than socially >> acceptable, they are socially required in this situation. * > > > And the USA is the only country in the world In which wearing a virus > preventing mask has become part of the culture wars, and is the only > country in which the president makes a point of not setting an example and > never being photographed wearing one because he thinks everything is about > him and wearing such a medical mask is a political statement of disapproval > of him personally. > ### US has one of the highest rates of mask use in the world *and* had one of the biggest post-lockdown infection spikes in the world. What does that tell you about Trump and Americans, John? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:07:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:07:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] steve's research In-Reply-To: <009101d6547b$f2ba3b10$d82eb130$@rainier66.com> References: <009101d6547b$f2ba3b10$d82eb130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > >?He was an occasional poster here for a long time? BillW I regret you > never had a chance to meet him. > > > > spike > > > > > > Correction to previous, Steve van Sickle was an occasional ExI poster a > long time ago. I don?t recall his posting here for perhaps 15 yrs now, but > he was on the local cryonics forum. > > > > Steve?s research was in gas infusion into tissues as a means of preserving > kidneys and other transplantable organs. > ### I am sorry to hear Steve died. I listened to his presentation on cold pressurized helium persufflation as a means of cryopreserving without toxic levels of cryoprotectants and I was very excited about the research. Did his company Arigos get anything done? Their website is still up but only a placeholder. Last mention I found of any research being done was from 2018 - pig kidneys recovered from -120C. It's a pity this project didn't get the support it needed. I had high hopes. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:18:58 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:18:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:02 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> > If Trump wins US astronauts will probably walk on the Moon before the end of the decade. [...] If Trump loses, good bye Artemis and the hope to return to the Moon. >> >> >> Good. At this point in our technological development I see little point in sending astronauts to the moon and even less to Mars. > > > ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. > > I would consider emigrating to the Moon if cryonic suspension was available there. In the polar regions there are cold traps with stable subsurface temperatures estimated at 38K. This is a potentially highly stable, long-term protected burial space for people interested in the far future. > > An important issue is the potential for rapid sociological change that could be achieved on the Moon by self-selection and controlled immigration into new political entities only weakly associated with telluric powers. Our enemies' assaults would be thwarted by space and distance while we proceed with the transformations Extropians have dreamed of for a long time. > > Rafal I think some more years of government funding are needed before private space becomes self-sustaining and independent of government funding. If so, we are at a critical moment and what happens in the next few months could accelerate or delay human space expansion by decades. If not, then I hope Musk Bezos &co. will use their money to go to the Moon and Mars without the government. But I'm somewhat skeptical. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:25:46 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:25:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] how long will this go on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 11:02 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Jul 11, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The first phase of a Marxist revolution is erasing history writ large and > small, with struggle sessions in store for anyone who disagrees. > > There's a method to this madness. > > > You really see this as a Marxist revolution? > ### Clearly it is a Marxist power grab. I know. I grew up under a Marxist government. It will go on until they break us all, or they are broken. As comrade Lenin wrote " You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw." Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 06:01:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 02:01:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I find objecting to "cultural appropriation" ridiculous. What this > means is that the population of those who "appropriate" find some > aspect (meme) of the originating culture attractive. ### "Cultural appropriation" does not refer to an idea whose merits may be rationally discussed. It's just a verbal distraction used by psychopaths who want to attack a person they need to weaken or destroy. Groups of status-maximizing psychopaths need to coordinate their attacks. They come up with seemingly inane terms of opprobrium that are then used by members of the group to maintain cohesion and to exclude others. Orthodox communists would accuse an enemy of being bourgeois, being kulak or having a Trotskyist deviation, a Buharinovist deviation or whatever. The targets would be then destroyed by a coordinated action. Then new accusations would be invented against other groups or factions, always keeping the meat grinders churning. If you are targeted by this form of attack, never engage its surface content. Do not argue what is or isn't cultural appropriation, do not try to reason with them. If you have the power, attack the persons who are attacking you, not their words. If you are weak, run away. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 06:23:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 02:23:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Indeed. Looked at on a geological timescale, the size of the hominid > braincase at birth basically inflated like a balloon, incredibly quickly, > right up to the point where it started to cause non-trivial infant > mortality increases. > > It has all the hallmarks of the same kind of "arms-race" > sexual-selection-based positive feedback loops that created other > ridiculously outsized anatomical features in other species, just like > peacock tails. > ### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that triggered the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the ability to learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were a downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. See "The secret of our success" by Joseph Henrich. In this interpretation, knowledge, and the intelligence needed to use, are directly fitness-enhancing. Our success is due to stumbling on a method for greatly accelerating the acquisition of knowledge by substituting group and memetic learning mechanisms for individual and genetic ones. This is different from the notion of IQ as a mere fitness marker that evolved solely due to sexual selection. A peacock's tail is a marker that decreases individual survival of the male while increasing female fitness by allowing them to concentrate their mating resources on the males most likely to sire healthy offspring. A man's or a woman's intelligence are however not just for show - they allow us to continually adapt to new ecological niches, thus dramatically enhancing fitness. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:09:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:09:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ancient & Viable In-Reply-To: <778E10F6-1F77-41C7-BA79-FC4B46503562@gmail.com> References: <778E10F6-1F77-41C7-BA79-FC4B46503562@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > TITLE: Deep sea microbes dormant for 100 million years are hungry and > ready to multiply > > https://phys.org/news/2020-07-deep-sea-microbes-dormant-million.html > > > Basically, the title says it all. Pretty cool, huh? > > ### But very surprising, to the point of suggesting other interpretations. RNA hydrolyses over short spans of time. The half-life of cytosine is 17,000 years. It is just not possible for an organism at non-cryogenic temperature to maintain the integrity of its RNA over geological timespans without metabolism needed to repair. The microbes must have been running at least DNA repair and some RNA and protein synthesis, if not cell division, to maintain their viability. Maybe there are burrowing animals that mix the sediments, or there is enough nutrient and oxygen diffusion to keep them alive. Definitely not 100 million year old cells lying dormant and then just springing back to life. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:14:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:14:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Reprehensible me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:16 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I think Rafal has a lot of reprehensible stances but he is more polite > here than you and generally a nicer person to have a conversation with. > ### Your comment is much appreciated (not being ironic here). But, out of curiosity, which ones of my stances do you find reprehensible? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:29:15 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:29:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I sent a picture that was too big for the list's settings, but here it is online: https://giulioprisco.com/cultural-appropriation-8ab5025369fb On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:27 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > I find objecting to "cultural appropriation" ridiculous. What this > means is that the population of those who "appropriate" find some > aspect (meme) of the originating culture attractive. > > Having elements of your culture spread into other cultures is by > objective measure desirable or at least it has been the standard by > which humans advanced their control over the world ever since whatever > date you want to assign as the origin of the species. > > In the context of the thread that brought this to mind, the flow of > elements of culture has been much larger in the opposite direction. > Consider breeding and riding horses, widely practiced by native tribes > and absolutely an import from the Spanish. Or consider sheep, > critical to the Navajo way of life. Are motor vehicles rejected by > natiave Americans as foreign culture? Nope. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:18:55 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:18:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I am above that sort of > pettiness so I won't say it: > > Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so > > > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. By "floating" delaying election he made sure that Demotards would publicly and vehemently refuse to consider delaying elections, even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too significant to ignore anymore. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:36:53 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:36:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:20 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I am above that sort of >> pettiness so I won't say it: >> >> Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so >> >> >> > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. By "floating" delaying election he > made sure that Demotards would publicly and vehemently refuse to consider > delaying elections, even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too > significant to ignore anymore. > It does not seem credible to suggest the Democrats would attempt to delay the election even if Biden and his VP pick were to die (of natural causes, of assassination, or whatever). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:40:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:40:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Has anyone here (aside from me) read _The Myth of the Rational Voter_? > ### I did and I think I recommended it here on the list. I am almost ready to do something irrational - actually vote this year. I have never voted, for ideological reasons and out of rational considerations, and I posted on the list about it a few times. Now however I am getting too angry to stay reasonable. Enemy attacks on my chosen country are so vicious and frenzied I want to express my anger in some concrete way, and a vote in a swing state fits the bill. As it is, I am nowadays staying in North Carolina, so voting here gives me a 1/6,800,000 chance of defeating the enemies. But maybe reason will prevail and I won't vote, as usual. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:05:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:05:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be > very convincing; > ### The ancient Greeks lost faith in their gods, started murdering their children, especially their daughters. They got conquered by the ancient Romans, for lack of hoplites. The Romans lost faith in their gods, started killing their children and soon the Vandals had their way with the leftovers, for lack of legions. Some weirdo Romans started worshipping the god of the Jews, who is displeased by killing children, and presto, those Romans made it through, proselytized, and spread. Some of the offshoots of that spread, like the Irish and the Poles, were doing well in the breeding department but then they lost faith in the god of the Jews, and bam, fertility dropped like a stone. Or take those Iranians - from 6 children per devout Muslima 50 years ago to 1 point something per faithless modern Iranian girl. Doesn't look like a coincidence to me. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:13:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:13:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. > ### ? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:16:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:16:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for > excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support > kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, > I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). > ### His TDS is just off the scale but otherwise he is a solid guy. No banning John. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:30:34 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:30:34 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 18:44, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone here (aside from me) read _The Myth of the Rational Voter_? >> > > ### I did and I think I recommended it here on the list. > > I am almost ready to do something irrational - actually vote this year. I > have never voted, for ideological reasons and out of rational > considerations, and I posted on the list about it a few times. Now however > I am getting too angry to stay reasonable. Enemy attacks on my chosen > country are so vicious and frenzied I want to express my anger in some > concrete way, and a vote in a swing state fits the bill. > > As it is, I am nowadays staying in North Carolina, so voting here gives me > a 1/6,800,000 chance of defeating the enemies. > > But maybe reason will prevail and I won't vote, as usual. > What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single vote does not count much? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:50:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:50:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:57 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs > that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five > would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and > valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be > valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. > -Henry ### The Big Five is not a complete description of human personality. It's just the kind of structure that you can observe in a large body of statements that people make in response to questions about their behavior. There are many types of information about personality that is highly relevant to social functioning but is very difficult to elicit on a questionnaire. This is why psychologists come up with new specialized scores, like narcissism scores or the Hexaco dimensions. In my mind there is no doubt that there is a lot more to be discovered about personality. I just bought the H Factor book on Kindle. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:55:34 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:55:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:15 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > By the way I just ran across an interesting statistic, during the past > month 1.9 million Americans have tested positive for COVID-19, that's *OVER > FIVE TIMES* as much as *ALL* of Europe and Australia and Canada and South > Korea and Japan *COMBINED*! Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable > to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny > bit wrong. > ### This is just dumb. You notice I am not arguing, just sharing my opinion, no? There is a reason for my brevity. The block capitalized letters hurt the eyes too. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:07:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:07:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:34 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Did you see this 2 weeks ago, written by 25 SWEDISH DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS > ? > > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/21/coronavirus-swedish-herd-immunity-drove-up-death-toll-column/5472100002/ > > ?Sweden has a death toll greater than the United States: 564 deaths per > million inhabitants compared with 444, as of July 27.? > > I haven?t looked up where we are today. > ### US 492, Sweden still 570. Regrettably, the US is still going strong and we will overtake Sweden, in about 25 days just by eyeballing the curves. As I mentioned before, playing with the graphs at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA~SWE&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc is very eye-opening. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:10:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:10:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:11 AM John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and >>> is basically a good idea, >>> >> >> > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great >> again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* >> > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I > specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing > the police*". > > ### Well, dunno. Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the police actually *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is". Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:25:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:25:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:30 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic > > > Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the > country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about > #987. > ### They move the Overton window to the left. That's why they exist - working hand in hand with Democratic establishment, and at the same time fundamentally transforming it. The Bolsheviks were not numerous but they were bolder than others. The vanguard of the proletariat. History repeats itself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:32:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:32:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 6:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >> > > > > Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, >> and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates >> is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the >> USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days >> to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts >> of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical >> value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? > > *> I agree with that. * > You do?! > *> I have never seen testing as an effective tool for this.* > Then you don't agree with that, you have just read the headline and not the article because Gates talks about how testing is an effective tool for preventing the virus spread IF it is not conducted in a bungled manner as the US has done. Well OK, he doesn't use the word "bungled", he's much too diplomatic for that, but it's perfectly clear what he means. * > I haven?t seen these tests available at the drug store. * > I haven't seen such a test in a drugstore either, at least not in a drugstore in the USA. > I don?t even know where I would get one. > Trump knows where to get them, he sees such virus tests every single day. Before anybody can come into contact with Trump in the White House they must first take such a test. Professional sports teams have use of such tests too, but of course the common people do not, at least not unless the common people live in a more advanced country like South Korea or Japan or Australia or.... > *Do you?* Yes I do. The European Union has approved and has been using three different rapid COVID-19 tests as early as March: Why is the US so far behind on rapid testing for Covid-19? > *I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill > Gates,* > Bill Gates has always been very diplomatic and apolitical (a bit too much in my humble opinion), however in this most recent interview I detect an undercurrent of exasperation, it's not much but it's the most I've ever seen from him; nevertheless the man is smart as hell and I really think it would be worth your time to read the article. Perhaps Norman Borlaug could have beaten him but I don't believe any human being alive today has saved more lives than Bill Gates has, he's worth listening to. *>Nothing I have seen in this dataset challenges my world view in the > least. * > And I am not surprised in the least. I don't think ANYTHING can change your worldview, not EVER, regardless of what new evidence comes to light. And I think Thomas Bayes would not approve. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:46:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:46:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:21 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so >> >> >> > > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. > Rafal I'm sincerely curious, when Trump threatened to ignore the election results if it doesn't turn out the way he wants, did that bother you at all? On January 20, 2021 would you be at least a little bit apprehensive? *> even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too significant to ignore > anymore.* Person, woman, man, camera, TV. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:48:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:48:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single > vote does not count much? > >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:58:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:58:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:33 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 6:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >>> >> >> >> >> Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, >>> and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates >>> is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the >>> USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days >>> to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts >>> of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical >>> value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? >> >> ### The tests we use at my hospital come back in 45 minutes. Is it good enough for you? If an article starts with "Despite having the highest infection rate in the world, the US....", you know it's garbage. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 11:19:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:19:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:25 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that triggered > the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the ability to > learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were a > downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. * > I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however there must be something special about humans because only they have developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. It's not entirely clear what Evolutionary forces caused humans to walk upright, but whatever it was the paleontological evidence is clear that it happened before the explosive growth of brain size of our Hominid ancestors. Intelligence is expensive, about 20% of the bodies energy is use just to operate the brain and I think there is a limit on how much increased survival value you get from intelligence if you don't have arms and hands they can manipulate things, A zebra couldn't make or throw a spear even if it was as smart as Einstein, but 3 million years ago Lucy could walk upright almost as well as you were I can, but her brain was no larger than that of a chimpanzee. And it was at that point evolution went into high gear and the brain size of her species started to grow very very swiftly. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:38:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:38:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, no. That's the entire feed. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do you have a link to the underlying data? > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn >> statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are >> allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of >> Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. >> Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that >> has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking >> mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning >> the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All >> of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties >> wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily >> COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear >> decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says >> that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. >> ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening >> the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* >> >> *bill w* >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:39:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:39:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think they are just looters - nothing political about them at this. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:52 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used >> against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the >> police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, >> that is one of the things we need to change. >> >> ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist > militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country > in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not > concerned about rubber bullets. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:51:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:51:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. >> dylan >> > I take this to mean that pattern recognition is an essential part of our cognition, and false correlation is simply when it goes too far - overgeneralizing. bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:54:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:54:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: You might want to read my review on amazon. There is a lot of description of what certain personalities will do, and a lot of that is really insightful. But it's hard or impossible to tell if it's their theoretical predictions or is based on actual studies. Also , they get introversion wrong, saying it's shyness. A pretty basic mistake. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:52 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:57 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs >> that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five >> would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and >> valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be >> valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. >> -Henry > > > ### The Big Five is not a complete description of human personality. It's > just the kind of structure that you can observe in a large body of > statements that people make in response to questions about their behavior. > There are many types of information about personality that is highly > relevant to social functioning but is very difficult to elicit on a > questionnaire. This is why psychologists come up with new specialized > scores, like narcissism scores or the Hexaco dimensions. > > In my mind there is no doubt that there is a lot more to be discovered > about personality. > > I just bought the H Factor book on Kindle. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 12:55:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:55:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014001d66fde$b37a5510$1a6eff30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>?I haven't seen such a test in a drugstore either, at least not in a drugstore in the USA. > I don?t even know where I would get one. > Do you? >?Yes I do. The European Union has approved and has been using three different rapid COVID-19 tests as early as March: >?Why is the US so far behind on rapid testing for Covid-19? Well there ya go: order them from the European Union, problem solved. Have you done it? Neither have I. Do you have a website where they are being sold? I am not much of a believer in testing as a means of controlling covid because it isn?t fast enough even at 15 minutes, because we don?t have any way to compel everyone to take one. We don?t have a good way to deal with false results, we don?t have a good way to enforce quarantine if positives are discovered. We don?t even have a known way to prevent positives from using the virus as a weapon. We are implementing fever-testing devices and masks over at the high school this week, but we might be fooling ourselves on the efficacy of that strategy. Better than nothing I suppose. > I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill Gates, >?Bill Gates has always been very diplomatic and apolitical (a bit too much in my humble opinion)? John K Clark There is no too much in being too diplomatic or too apolitical, in my humbler than thou opinion. John you should try it. If you discover talent in those areas, go for the record in that: the grand championship of apolitical and diplomatic. If your results at the regionals look good, we can form a national diplomatic team for the big Apolitical Olympics, go for the gold in diplomacy. We get Anders Sandberg and Eugen Leitl on our international apolitical relays, we would be a monster team. Gates is influential because of his charity work. I deeply admire that, and can relate to it. Testing our way out: I don?t think that will work, because not enough people will use it. We can?t even get everyone to use vaccines that we know are effective and safer than not using it. The fast kits are better than nothing of course, and I will use them once they show up or if I can order them. Is there a site for the European kits? We can recommend the tests, we can even give away the tests if we find enough money from somewhere. But we can?t make the proles use it and we can?t force them into quarantine if they test positive. We can?t even make them turn over their test results. That deafening roar is the sound of thousands of atheists silently praying. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:02:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:02:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe you are making an argument for the opposable thumb. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:21 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:25 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that >> triggered the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the >> ability to learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were >> a downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. * >> > > I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however > there must be something special about humans because only they have > developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological > civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. It's not > entirely clear what Evolutionary forces caused humans to walk upright, but > whatever it was the paleontological evidence is clear that it happened > before the explosive growth of brain size of our Hominid ancestors. > Intelligence is expensive, about 20% of the bodies energy is use just to > operate the brain and I think there is a limit on how much increased > survival value you get from intelligence if you don't have arms and hands > they can manipulate things, A zebra couldn't make or throw a spear even if > it was as smart as Einstein, but 3 million years ago Lucy could walk > upright almost as well as you were I can, but her brain was no larger than > that of a chimpanzee. And it was at that point evolution went into high > gear and the brain size of her species started to grow very very swiftly. > > John K Clark > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:01:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:01:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:16 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the police actually > *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is".* > I don't expect cops to work for free, but I do expect them to somehow squeak by without buying more $800,000 18 ton armored assault vehicles, submachine guns, and grenade launchers. If you're talking about national security then that money could be much better spent on radiation detectors for cargo containers and early detection of potentially dangerous viruses in wild animal populations among other things. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:02:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:02:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, that's what I meant. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:51 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. >>> dylan >>> >> > I take this to mean that pattern recognition is an essential part of our > cognition, and false correlation is simply when it goes too far - > overgeneralizing. bill w > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:05:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:05:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w Message-ID: https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/why-doesnt-lowering-ldl-cholesterol-save-more-lives?utm_source=The+People%27s+Pharmacy+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6bead4bff0-MC_D_2020-08-11%26subscriber%3D1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&goal=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&mc_cid=6bead4bff0&mc_eid=b9c6f5005a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:18:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:18:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun Message-ID: The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the Confederate battle flag is being replaced. A committee has looked at all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars has survived the first cut. Maybe the reference is to the percentage of people on welfare. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:28:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I've heard various arguments that suggest religion confers some sort of >> evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be very convincing; >> > > *> ### The ancient Greeks lost faith in their gods, started murdering > their children, especially their daughters. They got conquered by the > ancient Romans, * > Yes but conquered or not Greeks still exist today. Evolution doesn't care about who has conquered who, it just cares about who gets more genes into the next generation, so Evolutionarily speaking a sniveling coward could be much more successful than a great fearless hero. > *The Romans lost faith in their gods, started killing their children and > soon the Vandals had their way with the leftovers, for lack of legions.* > And yet Romans, just like the Greeks, did not go extinct. > *Or take those Iranians - from 6 children per devout Muslima 50 years ago > to 1 point something per faithless modern Iranian girl.* > I don't think that has much to do with religion. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:34:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:34:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:04 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: ### "Cultural appropriation" does not refer to an idea whose merits may be > rationally discussed. > Yes "Cultural appropriation" is stupid raise to the power of dumb. I agree with you, and that's not something I say very often. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:59:20 2020 From: lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:59:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Good Question. > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack > > Is there anything I'm missing with these? > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > > Metformin > > Candesartan > > Low dose tadalafil > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > > interested. ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) L-Glutathione reduced L-Glutamine Quercetin with bromelain Berberine + vitamin C + Zn Cayenne pepper Marshmallow root N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo Cloves Apple cider vinegar Grapefruit seed extract N-acetyl-D-glucosamine Coenzyme Q10 Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn Oxaloacetate + vitamin C Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase Cinnamon bark Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) Resveratrol PQQ disodium salt Curcumin Niacinamide Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) Vitamin K2 AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + theaflavins) Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are benefiting me the most. I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. Wishing everyone a great day, Gabe -- Gabe Waggoner www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:46:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:46:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Maybe you are making an argument for the opposable thumb. bill w > If a species had an opposable thumb (or something like it) then there would be evolutionary pressure for it to get smarter, but if it was already smart but had no opposable thumb then there would be no evolutionary pressure to evolve one. Therfore the thumb must have evolved for other reasons and the big brain must have come afterwards. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:23:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:23:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inasmuch as Rafal is a physician and i don't know Gabe, I'd like to know whose list of supplements this is. Just to let you know: I got breathless hanging out the clothes (!), so I decided it was time to do something, so I went to a heart doctor to get approval for an exercise program. Ultrasound and EKG showed a heart attack to the back of the heart sometime in the past, and an enlarged heart which is working at 30% efficiency, or whatever the measurement is. I was put on a beta blocker and a blood pressure medicine (Entresto, which my pharmacist says is a great drug). If the pills work I will regain some functioning. If anyone has any suggestions based on my diagnosis, please let me know. The stats look like I might have 5 to 10 years left, which would put me at 88 - plenty of life left, and 88 isn't bad for someone with my problems (two cancers to boot). Thanks! bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Good Question. > > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at > > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: > > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack > > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack > > > > Is there anything I'm missing with these? > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but > I'm > > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > > > etc.). > > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > > > (hopefully!) stack: > > > Pulsed rapamycin > > > Metformin > > > Candesartan > > > Low dose tadalafil > > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > > > Resveratrol > > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > > > potential side effects. > > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > > > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone > is > > > interested. > > ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was > glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a > lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm > happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't > italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) > > Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) > L-Glutathione reduced > L-Glutamine > Quercetin with bromelain > Berberine + vitamin C + Zn > Cayenne pepper > Marshmallow root > N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo > Cloves > Apple cider vinegar > Grapefruit seed extract > N-acetyl-D-glucosamine > Coenzyme Q10 > Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn > Oxaloacetate + vitamin C > Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase > Cinnamon bark > Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A > Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) > Resveratrol > PQQ disodium salt > Curcumin > Niacinamide > Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) > Vitamin K2 > AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) > Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + > theaflavins) > > > Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon > Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my > serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale > redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my > doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I > have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, > my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump > [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are > benefiting me the most. > > I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to go > about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it > purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. > > Wishing everyone a great day, > Gabe > > -- > Gabe Waggoner > www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:40:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:40:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gabe, thanks for sharing your list. I'm going to look at it in detail when I have a chance. Bill- I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes sense for a few reasons. Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: Abstract Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. However, little is known about the role of rapamycin in cardiac hypertrophy and the signaling pathways involved. Here, the effect of rapamycin was examined using phenylephrine (PE) induced cardiomyocyte hypertrophy in vitro and in a rat model of aortic banding (AB) - induced hypertrophy in vivo. Inhibition of MEK/ERK signaling reversed the effect of rapamycin on the up-regulation of LC3-II, Beclin-1 and Noxa, and the down-regulation of Mcl-1 and p62. Silencing of Noxa or Beclin-1 suppressed rapamycin-induced autophagy, and co-immunoprecipitation experiments showed that Noxa abolishes the inhibitory effect of Mcl-1 on Beclin-1, promoting autophagy. In vivo experiments showed that rapamycin decreased AB-induced cardiac hypertrophy in a MEK/ERK dependent manner. Taken together, our results indicate that rapamycin attenuates cardiac hypertrophy by promoting autophagy through a mechanism involving the modulation of Noxa and Beclin-1 expression by the MEK/ERK signaling pathway. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4796007/ Article on a different study: Elderly mice suffering from age-related heart disease saw a significant improvement in cardiac function after being treated with the FDA-approved drug rapamycin for just three months. The research, led by a team of scientists at the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, shows how rapamycin impacts mammalian tissues, providing functional insights and possible benefits for a drug that has been shown to extend the lifespan of mice as much as 14 percent. There are implications for human health in the research appearing online in Aging Cell: heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S., claiming nearly 600,000 lives per year. Researchers at the Mayo Clinic are currently recruiting seniors with cardiac artery disease for a clinical trial involving low dose treatment with rapamycin. Rapamycin is an immunosuppressant drug which can be used to help prevent organ rejection after transplantation. It is also included in treatment regimens for some cancers. In this study, rapamycin was added to the diets of mice that were 24 months old -- the human equivalent of 70 to 75 years of age. Similar to humans, the aged mice exhibited enlarged hearts, a general thickening of the heart wall and a reduced efficiency in the hearts ability to pump blood. The mice were examined with ultrasound echocardiography before and after the three-month treatment period -- using metrics closely paralleling those used in humans. Buck Institute faculty Simon Melov, PhD, the senior author of the study, said age-related cardiac dysfunction was either slowed or reversed in the treated mice. "When we measured the efficiency of how the heart pumps blood, the treated mice showed a remarkable improvement from where they started. In contrast, the untreated mice saw a general decline in pumping efficiency at the end of the same three month period," he said. "This study provides the first evidence that age-related heart dysfunction can be improved even in late life via appropriate drug treatment," added Melov, who said the treated mice saw a reduction in heart size, reduced stress signaling in heart tissues and a reduction in inflammation. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610132843.htm On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Inasmuch as Rafal is a physician and i don't know Gabe, I'd like to know > whose list of supplements this is. > > Just to let you know: I got breathless hanging out the clothes (!), so I > decided it was time to do something, so I went to a heart doctor to get > approval for an exercise program. Ultrasound and EKG showed a heart attack > to the back of the heart sometime in the past, and an enlarged heart which > is working at 30% efficiency, or whatever the measurement is. I was put on > a beta blocker and a blood pressure medicine (Entresto, which my pharmacist > says is a great drug). If the pills work I will regain some functioning. > If anyone has any suggestions based on my diagnosis, please let me know. > The stats look like I might have 5 to 10 years left, which would put me at > 88 - plenty of life left, and 88 isn't bad for someone with my problems > (two cancers to boot). Thanks! bill w > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > Good Question. >> > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at >> > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: >> > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack >> > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack >> > >> > Is there anything I'm missing with these? >> > >> > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, >> but I'm >> > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or >> > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, >> > > etc.). >> > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life >> extension >> > > (hopefully!) stack: >> > > Pulsed rapamycin >> > > Metformin >> > > Candesartan >> > > Low dose tadalafil >> > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene >> > > Resveratrol >> > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to >> some >> > > potential side effects. >> > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and >> > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. >> > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other >> > > enhancers people are experimenting with. >> > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if >> anyone is >> > > interested. >> >> ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was >> glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a >> lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm >> happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't >> italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) >> >> Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) >> L-Glutathione reduced >> L-Glutamine >> Quercetin with bromelain >> Berberine + vitamin C + Zn >> Cayenne pepper >> Marshmallow root >> N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo >> Cloves >> Apple cider vinegar >> Grapefruit seed extract >> N-acetyl-D-glucosamine >> Coenzyme Q10 >> Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn >> Oxaloacetate + vitamin C >> Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase >> Cinnamon bark >> Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A >> Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) >> Resveratrol >> PQQ disodium salt >> Curcumin >> Niacinamide >> Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) >> Vitamin K2 >> AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) >> Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + >> theaflavins) >> >> >> Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon >> Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my >> serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale >> redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my >> doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I >> have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, >> my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump >> [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are >> benefiting me the most. >> >> I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to >> go about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it >> purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. >> >> Wishing everyone a great day, >> Gabe >> >> -- >> Gabe Waggoner >> www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:56:39 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:56:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 15:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes sense for a few reasons. > > Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: > > Abstract > Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. "Immunosuppressant" ?? Is it safe to weaken the immune system when surrounded by Covid-19? Especially for an older person? BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 15:08:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:08:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] a little fun The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the Confederate battle flag is being replaced? bill w BillW, here?s another one I have been suspicious about for a long time. I know they claim it has nothing to do with the confederacy and all, but still it kinda looks a little like Mississippi?s flag which looks a little like the confederate flag: In keeping with the spirit of our times, we should be pressuring Boris or the queen to change that, become awakened and such. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:12:29 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:12:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The CV-19 is an additional wrench in the works, but when rapamycin is pulsed at low doses, the immunosuppressive effects are negated (there's actually some evidence it may even boost immunity). At daily, high doses, it's used as part of an immunosuppressive regime for organ transplants, but at once weekly, low doses, the bulk of these effects appear to be mitigated. There are two complexes related to rapaymycin's method of action mTORC1 and mTORC2 (mTOR actually stands for Target of Rapamycin). mTORC1 is related to nutrient sensing and is the one life extension enthusiasts are interested in. mTORC2 is related to growth factor signalling. The theory here is that mTORC2 activation is responsible for the nasty side effects of rapamycin at daily, high doses, and that it is possible to activate mTORC1 with weekly low doses, and minimize mTORC2 activation. This is a bit on the both of them, but if you want to read up on this stuff in general, mTOR is the pathway you want to look at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31010692/#:~:text=mTOR%20forms%20two%20multiprotein%20complexes,PI3K%20and%20growth%20factor%20signaling. I've been taking it for over a year, and all of my high level blood work still looks normal. There are always potential risks with any pharmaceutical intervention, and I would recommend you do your own research and speak to a doctor. You may have difficulty getting most doctors to prescribe it. I went to someone who retired years ago from his regular practice but is such a big believer in it based on the research and his personal results that he has built a new practice around it in his 70s. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:58 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 15:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as > I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I > take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take > it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a > fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes > sense for a few reasons. > > > > Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal > evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be > worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In > fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who > decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking > up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has > had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: > > > > Abstract > > Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and > immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. > > > > "Immunosuppressant" ?? Is it safe to weaken the immune system when > surrounded by Covid-19? Especially for an older person? > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:22:48 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:22:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> On 2020-8-11 06:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > Confederate battle flag[,] is being replaced.? A committee?has looked at > all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with > Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. > > But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars > has survived the first cut. Compared to that, why not crawfish? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 15:31:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:31:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar Message-ID: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-support ing-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/ BLM organizer Ariel Atkins' comment is the takeaway: "That is reparations. Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance." This tells me that the BLM organizer wants to treat insurance companies as a bottomless pit of money. OK, so they pay these business owners for their losses to some extent. Then what? Do you suppose those insurers are going to bet this will not happen again? I wouldn't make that bet. Insurer to former customer: Can't cover that anymore, too risky, here's your check, adios amigo. Then. these high end retail bricks and mortar outfits are never rebuilt. OK, well I suppose we don't really need them anymore. I see where they served their purpose at one time, but I don't see that there is any practical means of protecting them or insuring them, since it has been demonstrated that a flash-mob of looters cannot be stopped. Result: no more high-end retail in the population centers. What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? When that is gone, then what? The ability to organize looting flash mobs on the internet is accelerating the end of bricks and mortar retailing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:31:20 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:31:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 00:29, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > I sent a picture that was too big for the list's settings, > but here it is online: > > https://giulioprisco.com/cultural-appropriation-8ab5025369fb You couldn't have put that in plain text? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:42:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:42:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This one is too important for that attitude as you've alluded to. The Goths are at the gates. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >> vote does not count much? >> >>> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you > can't blame me. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:51:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> References: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> Message-ID: Crawfish would be great, then so would catfish - we raise a lot of them. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:26 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-11 06:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > > Confederate battle flag[,] is being replaced. A committee has looked at > > all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with > > Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. > > > > But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars > > has survived the first cut. > > Compared to that, why not crawfish? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:53:43 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:53:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> On 2020-8-10 19:25, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected > space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. Has anyone seen lava tubes on the Moon? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:53:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:53:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> References: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This actually happened the other day. People were complaining that the flag of Denmark looked like the MS battle flag - they need to see an optometrist - The Danes removed the flag from the website, bitterly complaining that it looked nothing like it at all. bill w https://www.google.com/search?q=image+flag+of+denmark&rlz=1CAMWDF_enUS731US731&sxsrf=ALeKk02v981BnmNKkHm6YqOfYCmMVDp--A:1597160988972&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM%252Clmi3sbAjCbeZTM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ7HJTEvJAn1lYdGh_7e97_4yYwuQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8ZWrwJPrAhVRU98KHQfaBWYQ9QEwCnoECAkQJA&biw=1247&bih=608&dpr=1.54#imgrc=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] a little fun > > > > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > Confederate battle flag is being replaced? > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, here?s another one I have been suspicious about for a long time. I > know they claim it has nothing to do with the confederacy and all, but > still it kinda looks a little like Mississippi?s flag which looks a little > like the confederate flag: > > > > > > In keeping with the spirit of our times, we should be pressuring Boris or > the queen to change that, become awakened and such. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:55:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:55:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? When that is gone, then what? soike Oh for sure, as soon as they get organized, they will attack Amazon storage sites. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-supporting-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/ > > > > BLM organizer Ariel Atkins? comment is the takeaway: > > > > ?That is reparations. Anything they wanted to take, they can take it > because these businesses have insurance.? > > > > This tells me that the BLM organizer wants to treat insurance companies as > a bottomless pit of money. OK, so they pay these business owners for their > losses to some extent. Then what? Do you suppose those insurers are going > to bet this will not happen again? I wouldn?t make that bet. Insurer to > former customer: Can?t cover that anymore, too risky, here?s your check, > adios amigo. > > > > Then? these high end retail bricks and mortar outfits are never rebuilt. > > > > OK, well I suppose we don?t really need them anymore. I see where they > served their purpose at one time, but I don?t see that there is any > practical means of protecting them or insuring them, since it has been > demonstrated that a flash-mob of looters cannot be stopped. > > > > Result: no more high-end retail in the population centers. > > > > What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? > When that is gone, then what? > > > > The ability to organize looting flash mobs on the internet is accelerating > the end of bricks and mortar retailing. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 16:56:18 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:56:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> References: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-10 19:25, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected > > space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. > > Has anyone seen lava tubes on the Moon? > Yes. I haven't been there myself to verify this yet, but there are many reports of lava tubes on the Moon. See for instance https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Rima_Ariadaeus-1-e1427740341834.jpg . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:24:17 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:24:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Net Return On Philosophy Major Is Comparable To That Of Engineering Major Message-ID: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> http://dailynous.com/2017/01/23/net-return-philosophy-major-comparable-engineering/ The market has spoken? Well, that?s from a few years ago. See also: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/08/06/want-good-job-major-philosophy Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:24:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:24:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:11 AM John Clark wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news >>>> and is basically a good idea, >>>> >>> >>> > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great >>> again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* >>> >> >> Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I >> specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing >> the police*". >> >> > ### Well, dunno. Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the > police actually *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is". > John means a not-full defunding. Take away certain expensive toys that invite misuse by their mere presence in police departments, reassign certain duties away from police so they don't need as many police and can focus training of the rest on their remaining duties, and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:35:35 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:35:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most URLs like this can be cut at the ?. That is, remove the ? (there should usually only be one; if there are multiple, then cut at the first one) and everything after it, then load just that URL. If you get the same article, use that shortened URL. There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, but these are rare. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/why-doesnt-lowering-ldl-cholesterol-save-more-lives?utm_source=The+People%27s+Pharmacy+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6bead4bff0-MC_D_2020-08-11%26subscriber%3D1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&goal=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&mc_cid=6bead4bff0&mc_eid=b9c6f5005a > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 17:39:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:39:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d67006$5660fdc0$0322f940$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] a little fun This actually happened the other day. People were complaining that the flag of Denmark looked like the MS battle flag - they need to see an optometrist - The Danes removed the flag from the website, bitterly complaining that it looked nothing like it at all. bill w https://www.google.com/search?q=image+flag+of+denmark &rlz=1CAMWDF_enUS731US731&sxsrf=ALeKk02v981BnmNKkHm6YqOfYCmMVDp--A:1597160988972&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM%252Clmi3sbAjCbeZTM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ7HJTEvJAn1lYdGh_7e97_4yYwuQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8ZWrwJPrAhVRU98KHQfaBWYQ9QEwCnoECAkQJA&biw=1247&bih=608&dpr=1.54#imgrc=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM OK so. They both took the confederate flag, the Brits added the X/Y axes and dropped the stars. The Danes ran with the ball, kept the British X/Y axes but dropped the confederate |Y| = 0.5|X| notion and the stars, both of them sneaking in a bit of southern hospitality. But they don?t fool me for a minute! We need to have a little chat with Elizabeth II and Margrethe II, see what they really had in mind with these stealth-confederate images. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 17:47:45 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:47:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, > but these are rare. Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 18:04:49 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:04:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, > > but these are rare. > > Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. > Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to shorten before. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 18:21:54 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:21:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> On 2020-8-07 03:11, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots According to some of them, stripping the police of some of their legal immunity to torts would be tantamount to abolition. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:13:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:13:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 9:53 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> As it is, armed leftist militants are on a rampage,* One of the main reasons to justify sending federal thugs into the heart of Portland Oregon against the wishes of local authorities, both the mayor and the governor, was that the leftists were on a rampage of...... graffiti. And I didn't see a single gun, except those used by the thugs. But I sure saw one hell of a lot of guns when right wing nuts invaded the Michigan state house in full body armor wielding semi automatic assault rifles because they didn't want their God given constitutional right to spread COVID-19 to other people violated by being made to wear a facemask. The president of the United States even tweeted his approval of such stormtrooper tactics. Armed Protesters Storm Michigan State House Over COVID-19 Lockdown *> I am not concerned about rubber bullets.* Not even when rubber bullets are used to stop a protest, in which there is plenty of video evidence showing it was peaceful, so that Trump could have a photo op and hold a Bible upside down in front of a church? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:16:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:16:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> Message-ID: Just what we need: borderline psychopaths with full armor and buoyed by a lack of ability to be sued, give them lethal weapons and turn them loose on lawbreakers. I support the police just as much as any conservative rightwinger does (I was even polite to the ones who gave me speeding tickets.), but many of their practices have gone beyond reason. I posted the other day about education in the US getting our teachers from the bottom third of the group, which Singapore used the top third. Why can't we do that with the police? We hire from the bottom, men and women who probably dropped out school before or during college. We do not screen them adequately, train them for a few weeks, and turn them loose. Oh, and pay them poorly, so much so that they need second jobs to support a family, just like teachers. Bottom line: we are not paying people according to their importance The large majority of them will be OK, I think, though befuddled by complex situations. But a few will be killers with the mentality of the worst criminals, just looking for a fight. Any adequate screening would have caught them before they entered the police academy. But I have never heard of adequate screening. Have you? Wars starting with Vietnam gave us data about men with weapons who did not fire them in combat. Has the Army studied those people, or just kicked them out? You know my guess. Or how about those who just fired at anyone in sight and mowed down entire Vietnam villages? We need personality profiles of both types - and more. Yeah, I am for hiring tons of psychologists and finding out who turns out to be good cops and who bad cops, not that there's a neat dividing line - never is. I think proper screening would solve more problems than anything else we can do. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-07 03:11, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots > > According to some of them, stripping the police of some of their legal > immunity to torts would be tantamount to abolition. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:20:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:20:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 10:33 PM Michael LaTorra via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Rafal Smigrodzki - Exactly right. Videos show a lot of violence coming > from those supposedly * > *"peaceful" protesters.* > Somehow I missed that. A month or two ago I saw video of windows being broken and three or four shops being looted, but after that the only violence I saw came from cops and federal stormtroopers in unmarked vans. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:37:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:37:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > >> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >> > but these are rare. >> >> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >> > > Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was > talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to > shorten before. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:43:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:43:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill- Not sure if you're asking why they're there or why you're asked to shorten them. If it's the former, they're typically add ons for tracking things like how someone got to the site (from a newsletter for example), or other tracking attributes. If it's the latter, some people just don't like dealing with longer urls for copy/paste, etc. It's a personal preference. If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: >> >>> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >>> > but these are rare. >>> >>> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >>> >> >> Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was >> talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to >> shorten before. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 19:45:52 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:45:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 12:16, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Wars starting with Vietnam gave us data about men with weapons who did > not fire them in combat.? Has the Army studied those people, or just > kicked them out?? You know my guess. I have heard somewhere or other (my number one source for hard data!) that the proportion of soldiers willing to shoot to kill has risen from about one in four in WWI to a majority in more recent wars. Training, or the end of conscription (now selecting for the violent), who knows? Likely some of each. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:46:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:46:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, > you can't blame me.* > I think Paul von Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but if I was a German in 1932 I would've voted for him, and if I survived the upcoming war in 1952 I would have look back at that vote with pride. If I had voted for his opponent or just not voted at all I would be filled with shame, because there is no bottom to bad. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 19:51:40 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:51:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Net Return On Philosophy Major Is Comparable To That Of Engineering Major In-Reply-To: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> References: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e3b97f4-f95c-2076-ba54-d87871f5d074@pobox.com> On 2020-8-11 10:24, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > The market has spoken? Well, that?s from a few years ago. That darn market never shuts up. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:54:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:54:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >> vote does not count much? >> >>> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you > can't blame me. > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the country). Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:56:06 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:56:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58FE78B6-1E93-4CBC-B036-77DB106A7BAD@gmail.com> On Aug 6, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is basically a good idea, > > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. Then I guess whatever happened in Camden, NJ ? where they defunded the police back in 2012 ? must be fake news. See: https://www.businessinsider.com/camden-new-jersey-police-disbanded-how-it-works-impacts-residents-2020-6 Also, Cory?s piece was on abolition ? not defunding. Have you actually read it? (I know the answer is No.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:02:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:02:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38B4E154-A121-496A-8833-4B9857FFE964@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 3:13 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is basically a good idea, >> >> > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I specifically said "Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing the police". And you still haven?t responded to why you thought Cory Massimino confused abolition with defunding. I?m guessing you haven?t and won?t ever read his piece. Your empirical stance stops at actually reading what he actually wrote, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:17:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:17:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >> wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>> vote does not count much? >>> >>>> >>> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you >> can't blame me. >> > > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't > matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the > United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is > possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually > requires leaving the country). > > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:18:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:18:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My comment on Rice is immediately dated. He just picked Harris. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden > if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty > obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up > with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless > you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't > say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>>> vote does not count much? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, >>> you can't blame me. >>> >> >> We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It >> doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of >> the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it >> is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which >> usually requires leaving the country). >> >> Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:37:25 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:37:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C225C46-A73A-4D5A-9A2C-99043E9FCD8A@gmail.com> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single vote does not count much? >>> >> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. > > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the country). Where is this requirement for US citizenship? Oh, you just made that up. > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. Well, if no one voted in 2016, where would he be now? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:37:21 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:37:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. I have been deeply involved in space habitation for 45 years. Don't want to argue from authority, but there are a *lot" of problems, some of which don't have recognized solutions. Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How is that done? Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. But if you have suggestions for how to do this on the moon, i would be most interested to see your analysis. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:38:29 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:38:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3817FF47-4B41-4153-8784-A3ED3844983C@gmail.com> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:? > > Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. He picked Harris. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:44:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:44:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:00 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. > > I think Paul von Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but if I was a German in 1932 I would've voted for him, and if I survived the upcoming war in 1952 I would have look back at that vote with pride. If I had voted for his opponent or just not voted at all I would be filled with shame, because there is no bottom to bad. Recall who Hindenburg helped a certain other person to seize control about a year later. I?d say he was one of history?s great enablers. And let?s not forget his role in popularizing the stab in the back myth. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth The best thing about Hindenburg in 1932 was that he wasn?t going to live that long. But that didn?t help matters much, did it? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 21:17:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:17:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dylan - that's very helpful - thanks. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:46 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bill- > > Not sure if you're asking why they're there or why you're asked to shorten > them. If it's the former, they're typically add ons for tracking things > like how someone got to the site (from a newsletter for example), or > other tracking attributes. If it's the latter, some people just don't > like dealing with longer urls for copy/paste, etc. It's a personal > preference. > > If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use > a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it > will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w >> >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >>>> > but these are rare. >>>> >>>> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >>>> >>> >>> Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was >>> talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to >>> shorten before. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 22:00:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:00:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Hand in hand implies they work together. They do not. Antifa exists to move the Overton Window to exclude fascists. Nothing more or less. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2020, at 5:25 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:30 AM John Clark wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic >> >> Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about #987. > > ### They move the Overton window to the left. That's why they exist - working hand in hand with Democratic establishment, and at the same time fundamentally transforming it. > > The Bolsheviks were not numerous but they were bolder than others. The vanguard of the proletariat. > > History repeats itself. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:19:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:19:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 08:42, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > This one is too important for that attitude as you've alluded to. > The Goths are at the gates. Every single cycle I hear - often from two sides - that THIS TIME it's vital to go all-out for the second-worst of the Biparty's nominees. I see that Biden has chosen Harris; I guess he's courting the prison unions. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:28:50 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:28:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 12:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. > It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an > adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are > to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or > to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the > country). One's only *duty* to others is the Golden Rule. I *choose* to promote freedom in my modest way, which includes such revolutionary acts as not voting for Kamala gorram Harris. > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. Certain other people doing their "civic duty" was the other part. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:29:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:29:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ac6bc0b-5ec7-ee9f-c12b-9045e8dc5fe9@pobox.com> On 2020-8-01 13:34, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology > does, and it truly is a dismal "science." Fun fact: Carlyle called economics a "dismal science" because, in its obsession with tangible utility, it ignores the spiritual benefits of such humane institutions as slavery. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 22:31:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:31:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:57 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes > around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where > does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How > is that done? > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > > But if you have suggestions for how to do this on the moon, i would be > most interested to see your analysis. > To me, this is a secondary reason to plant a colony near the north or south pole, after the availability of water ice surviving in permanently shadowed craters: you can build a ring of solar panels, such that some of them will always be in sunlight. As to getting rid of heat, could you dig heat sinks into the Moon and radiate heat into the rock? Not as efficiently as into open air on Earth, but could it work? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:34:40 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:34:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-06 21:00, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on > the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of > printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is > in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, [...] Be fair, its name does not mention the people. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 22:52:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:52:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:57 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How is that done? ? >?To me, this is a secondary reason to plant a colony near the north or south pole, after the availability of water ice surviving in permanently shadowed craters: you can build a ring of solar panels, such that some of them will always be in sunlight. >?As to getting rid of heat, could you dig heat sinks into the Moon and radiate heat in