From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 06:51:57 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 01:51:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: loans, credit cards, social gratification. They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the first like you?re supposed to! It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not the same as far as poise goes. SR Ballard > On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the natural order of things. >> >> SR Ballard > > What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. > > Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > http://author.to/DanUst > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 13:30:40 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:30:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the "humble Conex" box (was Re: Sharpiegate) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:05 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> In the first edition of "Where To?" in 1950 Robert A Heinlein wrote > something like "there is some device, new but seemingly humble, that will > change the world. We just don't know which." At the time he thought it > was the transistor but by the time of the second edition in 1965, he > dismissed that as a trivial* Heinlein was brilliant to predict that in 1950 and a fool to dismiss it in 1965. Imagine how the world would be different if today we had no better way to control the flow of electrons than with a vacuum tube. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 13:51:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 08:51:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been mentioned as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they interact all over the place. But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and chemistry. So I envy them. Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes not only worthless but misleading. Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. Not even close. Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what they are experiencing. You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now who are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you put them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your head - bah humbug. No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully scientific data as polling. I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of real, firm knowledge. bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating > responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. > > For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly > borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find > that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now > has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do > NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: > loans, credit cards, social gratification. > > They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his > brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the > first like you?re supposed to! > > It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to > become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. > > And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that > money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do > their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. > > Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of > course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not > the same as far as poise goes. > > SR Ballard > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it > requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the > natural order of things. > > SR Ballard > > > What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s always > this attitude that something is wrong with the young. > > Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s > strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff > their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, > stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 15:18:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:18:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] hmmm Message-ID: Singapore gets its education students from among the top one third. We get ours from the bottom one third. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 19:37:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 12:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] not necessarily? do explain please... Message-ID: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> I have been away for a coupla wk camping, mostly away from internet. The first things I checked upon my return to bandwidth is the covid rate in my county: https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx Can someone help me understand why the chart says Cumulative COVID-19 Deaths, but that comment down that the bottom seems contradictory: "Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the individuals died from COVID-19." OK, um. sure. So. why are they in the database under "Covid-19 deaths"? Over time, the number of people coming to the county coroner with Covid antibodies accumulates. If I count the new case rate from about 2 wks ago and compare to the current death rate, I too am getting about half a percent: https://reason.com/2020/07/23/there-is-more-than-one-covid-19-infection-fata lity-rate/?utm_medium=email spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Aug 1 19:39:03 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 15:39:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022cb83cbf09178a6fee9f613e870a23@ultimax.com> Well, John, you have some company, at any rate. Some good and forthright lines in here: https://www.npr.org/2020/07/31/897724197/citing-election-delay-tweet-influential-trump-ally-now-demands-his-re-impeachmen "Until recently, I had taken as political hyperbole the Democrats' assertion that President Trump is a fascist," the conservative legal scholar [Steven Calabresi of the Federalist Society] wrote. "But this latest tweet is fascistic and is itself grounds for the president's immediate impeachment again by the House of Representatives and his removal from office by the Senate." [snip] He warned, "Anyone who says otherwise should never be elected to Congress again." His full Op-Ed here: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/opinion/trump-delay-election-coronavirus.html K3 On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:07:44 -0400, John Clark wrote: > I'm ashamed to admit it now but I was one of those folks. From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 19:57:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 14:57:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] not necessarily? do explain please... In-Reply-To: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> References: <009201d6683b$2ac8cc10$805a6430$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think someone said that if a person died and had the virus, even though he did not die from it, they counted it as a virus death. Something about getting paid for virus deaths. I think I read that the first teen death in California occurred. Huh? bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 2:39 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > I have been away for a coupla wk camping, mostly away from internet. The > first things I checked upon my return to bandwidth is the covid rate in my > county: > > > > https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx > > > > Can someone help me understand why the chart says Cumulative COVID-19 > Deaths, but that comment down that the bottom seems contradictory: > > > > > > > > ?Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the > individuals died from COVID-19.? > > > > OK, um? sure. So? why are they in the database under ?Covid-19 deaths?? > > > > Over time, the number of people coming to the county coroner with Covid > antibodies accumulates. > > > > If I count the new case rate from about 2 wks ago and compare to the > current death rate, I too am getting about half a percent: > > > > > https://reason.com/2020/07/23/there-is-more-than-one-covid-19-infection-fatality-rate/?utm_medium=email > > > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 100193 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Aug 1 20:16:05 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2020 16:16:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the "humble Conex" box (was Re: Sharpiegate) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77299c614bf64af6a95334aba4563168@ultimax.com> To be sure, RAH didn't think the transistor was trivial, far from it. It was his guesswork of 1950 that he said was trivial in 1965. That is, the prediction "that transistor will be revolutionary", was too easy for him. Sorry I was inexact in my meaning. K3 On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 09:30:40 -0400, John Clark wrote: >> In the first edition of "Where To?" in 1950 Robert A Heinlein wrote >> something like "there is some device, new but seemingly humble, that >> will >> change the world. We just don't know which." At the time he thought >> it >> was the transistor but by the time of the second edition in 1965, he >> dismissed that as a trivial* > > Heinlein was brilliant to predict that in 1950 and a fool to dismiss it > in > 1965. Imagine how the world would be different if today we had no > better > way to control the flow of electrons than with a vacuum tube. From interzone at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 20:34:49 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:34:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: I really appreciate this reply, and it makes me respect at least a subset of psychology more than I did. If it makes you feel any better, Bill, economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology does, and it truly is a dismal "science." But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. The Millenials (I can't speak as much to the Gen Zers) I have come in contact with generally have their heads screwed on straight, have gone to school for degrees that will result in actual jobs and decent income, or have found a trade that pays. I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is gravy. ?The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but within myself to the choices that are my own?? ? Epictetus On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been mentioned > as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they interact > all over the place. > > But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because > it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do > quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and > chemistry. So I envy them. > > Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the > issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. > Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of > them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions > based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes > not only worthless but misleading. > > Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many > parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would > practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is > wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible > for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. > Not even close. > > Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what > they are experiencing. > > You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now who > are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no > retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role > models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. > > So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you put > them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some > interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, > sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your > head - bah humbug. > > No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team > of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully > scientific data as polling. > > I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of > real, firm knowledge. > > bill w > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating >> responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. >> >> For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly >> borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find >> that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now >> has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do >> NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: >> loans, credit cards, social gratification. >> >> They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his >> brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the >> first like you?re supposed to! >> >> It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to >> become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. >> >> And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset that >> money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil pasta, do >> their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. >> >> Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of >> course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not >> the same as far as poise goes. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it >> requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the >> natural order of things. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> >> What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s >> always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. >> >> Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s >> strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff >> their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, >> stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> Sample my Kindle books at: >> >> http://author.to/DanUst >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 21:20:47 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:20:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 4:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful > about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot > shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. > The youth are fine, but the world is not. It's only natural that we are discouraged. I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current > generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an > option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us > nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our > broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation > can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is > unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel > moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the > Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is > gravy. > Not giving up, nor complaining that life is unfair, nor imagining life owes us. As you say, Fortuna's wheel moves up and down. We happen to be a generation experiencing a downswing, like our grandparents. What gets complained about is people from easier and more plentiful times trying to convince us to apply the same heuristics that worked for them. Instability waxes and wanes. It is simple. Now is a time of greater instability. I think a lot of older people have some kind of internal guilt about their lives having been more stable with more hope for the future. "BuT tHe CuBaN mIsSiLe CrIsIs!!!" -- the Cuban Missile Crisis was scary because ICBMs at the time sucked, so those nukes in Cuba actually threatened America. Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today. Anyway I'm just saying. Youth today are disillusioned because it sucks to be a generation on the downswing of the wheel. Nobody is giving up. But we are certainly worried about existential threats to humanity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 21:51:37 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:51:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Dylan. I see that you are an Epicurean, probably not the only other one besides myself. I have noticed that econ is becoming a behavioral science (and has a Nobel Prize winner if you count Kahneman; we really need a Nobel category for psychology and all the behavioral sciences.) Good for them even if they are treading on our toes. Same for philosophy. Law scholars are doing some behavioral research as well, mostly with juries. What to do in a downturn - try to maintain a positive attitude. Dwelling on the negatives does nothing but make the wrong transmitters flow. That quote frp, Epictetus reminds me of the one that ends with 'and the wisdom to know the difference'. bill w On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I really appreciate this reply, and it makes me respect at least a subset > of psychology more than I did. If it makes you feel any better, Bill, > economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology does, and it > truly is a dismal "science." > > But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets... I, OTOH, am more hopeful > about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot > shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular. > > The Millenials (I can't speak as much to the Gen Zers) I have come in > contact with generally have their heads screwed on straight, have gone to > school for degrees that will result in actual jobs and decent income, or > have found a trade that pays. > > I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current > generation has it the hardest and has no hope. Giving up in life is not an > option that frequently yields a good outcome. Life itself owes us > nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our > broader social network that we make a decent go of it. Every generation > can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is > unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on. The wheel > moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the > Buddha said, it is suffering. Once you accept that, everything else is > gravy. > > ?The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters > so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my > control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where > then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but > within myself to the choices that are my own?? ? Epictetus > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been >> mentioned as causes of this and that. But there are quite a few. And they >> interact all over the place. >> >> But here's my thing: I have physics envy. I got out of clinical because >> it wasn't very scientific at all. My fields of social and personality do >> quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and >> chemistry. So I envy them. >> >> Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the >> issues we are discussing here. Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc. >> Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions. Would I regard any of >> them as true? No way. What you have is a bunch of individual opinions >> based on who knows what. Anecdotal data - the very worst kind. Sometimes >> not only worthless but misleading. >> >> Let's take helicopter parents. I have to wonder: just how many >> parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would >> practice it if they did? I have no idea. Do you? Suppose that is >> wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible >> for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays. That's not causation. >> Not even close. >> >> Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what >> they are experiencing. >> >> You mention self-sufficient adults. You are talking about adults now >> who are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no >> retirement program at all - only SS. Your parents are not providing role >> models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not. >> >> So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention. If you >> put them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some >> interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology, >> sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your >> head - bah humbug. >> >> No, I don't want anyone to research these things. That's for a huge team >> of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully >> scientific data as polling. >> >> I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of >> real, firm knowledge. >> >> bill w >> >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> By ?the natural order of thing?, I mean, not conducive to creating >>> responsible, ?self-sufficent? adults. >>> >>> For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly >>> borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find >>> that unacceptable and childish and just don?t tolerate it from him. He now >>> has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do >>> NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save: >>> loans, credit cards, social gratification. >>> >>> They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his >>> brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the >>> first like you?re supposed to! >>> >>> It?s not a thing that?s ?wrong? with young people. But it?s going to >>> become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away. >>> >>> And I?m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset >>> that money represents. For example people who move out and can?t boil >>> pasta, do their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check. >>> >>> Eventually the people who do that for ?you? now are going to be gone. Of >>> course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it?s absolutely not >>> the same as far as poise goes. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ?To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on ?society? because it >>> requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the >>> natural order of things. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> >>> What is the ?natural order of things?? The way I view it is there?s >>> always this attitude that something is wrong with the young. >>> >>> Forgive the expression, but don?t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It?s >>> strange because I?m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff >>> their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know, >>> stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Dan >>> Sample my Kindle books at: >>> >>> http://author.to/DanUst >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 22:33:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 15:33:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] puzzle In-Reply-To: References: <6efa1948e51da2af5be6906eade207f4.squirrel@www.main.nc.us> <61084542-334A-42A8-A80D-23AF19177AEA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014501d66853$c3169660$4943c320$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] puzzle On Mon, Jul 27, 2020, 9:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: Ah yes, the good old ?it?s being filled with both air and water!? >?Or the glass is already 50% volume with rocks or sand (small rocks) or mercury or any other displacement that prevents more than 50% water to fill the glass regardless of how much more water is available. >?We could probably get spike to figure out how much energy it would take to completely separate the water via electrolysis at exactly the output of the faucet? Mike Mike, you are too kind, sir. By the way you suggested separating the water (electrolysis) the energy requirement is indistinguishable from zero: you would separate water from sand or rocks by filtration, and water won?t mix with mercury. I was reading way too much into BillW?s puzzle and proposed a number of absurdities. However, having a coupla weeks away from the internet allowed me plenty of time to think up new ones. Like crises, one should never allow perfectly good absurdities to go to waste. The whole ?glass half full? part was really causing me to go off on a tangent. An actual glass at half its capacity is presented to the natural optimist and the natural pessimist, and you know what comments they will make, but if we take the pessimist and continued to fill to the top, perhaps she would then argue it is half full, since it was half empty before. Meanwhile, the natural optimist would view the glass under an enthusiastic faucet with its wildly churning and sloshing contents, and argue that it is full: as full as it is ever going to get. So no worries, turn off the water, gurgle that down, put the glass under there again with the faucet full throttle, gurgle the second one down, two half glasses, done. So it is all in the way you look at it I suppose, but we can perhaps come up with a kind of game or contest whereby we allow one to set the faucet at any flow rate, then shut it off suddenly, see who can get that glass closest to half its capacity. Then we could do all manner of fun derivatives with that notion such as related events where we shoot for 60% capacity or maximizing the contents with the glass tilted at pi radians, call it the Glass Half Full Olympics. Then the neighbors would make such comments as OK, that?s it, this quarantine crap hasta stop, spike is losing his damn mind. I would argue to the contrary, but it would be to no avail of course. It is the nature of psychoses: the more one claims to not have them, the more we convince others we do. Most annoying is this. Of all the things I missed while camping, it was the clever silliness found on this site, including the clever silliness I would have written had I not been camping away from it all. Things feel different out there. The wilderness isn?t experiencing a culture war. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 22:38:44 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:38:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:52 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > That quote frp, Epictetus reminds me of the one that ends with 'and the > wisdom to know the difference'. bill w > Fitting coming from a "Bill W."! ;) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:01:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:01:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the > time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban > Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today.* In 1962 the USA had 6,300 Megatons worth of H-bombs, and the USSR had about 3000. The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about .01 megatons and it killed at least 100,000 people. Today all the world's nuclear weapons stockpiles combined equal to about 5000 Megatons, that dog shit still smells but only 5/9 as bad so things have improved, although I must admit that in 1962 neither Kennedy nor Khrushchev was as stupid or ignorant as Donald Trump. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:20:59 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 19:20:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: Over a certain amount, there is no difference, as it would be enough to ruin the world whether it was 1000 or 10000 bombs. What IS different is the delivery methods (like 'hypersonic' missiles,) which are being improved all the time, as well as delivery platforms (like submarines.) As well, the number of countries with nuclear weapons have increased since 1962. As well, there are now multiple states with nukes who are not party to the NPT. As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war warheads in the hands of god knows who. And yes, the leaders are crazier than ever before. I would say we are much worse off right now than we ever were in '62. On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:02 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Now, there is an active threat to all countries in the world, all the >> time, many times more severe than the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Cuban >> Missile Crisis is dog shit compared to the state of nuclear armament today.* > > > In 1962 the USA had 6,300 Megatons worth of H-bombs, and the USSR had > about 3000. The Hiroshima bomb had a yield of about .01 megatons and it > killed at least 100,000 people. Today all the world's nuclear weapons > stockpiles combined equal to about 5000 Megatons, that dog shit still > smells but only 5/9 as bad so things have improved, although I must admit > that in 1962 neither Kennedy nor Khrushchev was as stupid or ignorant as > Donald Trump. > > John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:23:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:23:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?I think this stuff about how it's OK to throw away your vote if you're in certain states is nuts for two reasons: >?1) We're talking about life and death here, and it's crazy to make such a momentous decision based on polls, especially when you consider how wrong the polls were in 2016? John K Clark If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja? To a minor party voter, victory is determined by whether their party?s vote spanned the gap between winner and loser. In 2016, the minor parties spanned that gap in a number of states. Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with your own beliefs. So? don?t throw away your vote: vote for your beliefs and don?t worry about the polls. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:30:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:30:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <7060dd62-551e-5175-dfa6-c1de919790d6@pobox.com> Message-ID: <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?In Australia I tend to vote Greens? Your Democrat/Republican parties would be closest related to our Labour/Liberal parties. 2 party systems suck? Anton Hi Anton, If I didn?t vote libertarian I would probably vote Green. Those two minor parties might span the gap between the majors this time, which would influence the majors to toss us a bone. If one lives in a swing state, that state presents an even greater opportunity to contribute to spanning the gap. In a year when both the USian major party?s POTUS candidates are very unpopular, we can expect good numbers from the minor parties. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 1 23:58:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:58:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ad01d6685f$9d44c540$d7ce4fc0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?I live in PA, so my vote definitely counts a lot. >?I actually agree with John not only that voting in safe states will likely matter in what happens, but also that voting for Biden specifically will be more important than just voting against Trump, because Biden will be helped by tallies the same way Trump is hurt by them. >?That being said, I still haven't convinced myself to vote for Biden instead of just not voting this year like I have been planning on. Idk Hey cool, I have an idea. Since Will has identified himself as perhaps the only swinger here, we can write up all our political lip flapping and post it offlist to him specifically rather than continuing the dreary and wearisome droning. Then when he tells us who he decided to vote for, we can celebrate or be disappointed, without having to worry about influencing the election. Cool! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 23:59:57 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 16:59:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote Message-ID: Will Steinberg wrote: snip > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war warheads in the hands of god knows who. What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? I should note that virtually all nuclear weapons require periodic maintenance by people who really know what they are doing. Incidentally, it is not good to hear about a generation of depressed people. At least on this list, it seems to be the older ones who are more optimistic. There are lots of problems, but there are also lots of solutions. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:07:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:07:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01b601d66860$f97dab00$ec790100$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? >?Apathy, disgust with two party system, hopelessness. >?It may be harder to understand for older people. >?We younger people have very little hope for the future. While you guys were excited for the future as kids, young adults, and beyond, we have no hope. Geopolitical instability is increasing, there are pandemics, climate change, and increasingly polarized and violent populations in many countries?Will Will it is all in your (completely voluntary) perspective, me lad! Your future is so very bright I really don?t see why there is such negativity. For instance? Because of Covid quarantine, companies (good ones) have found ways to have more workers at home. They are even doing training that way (cool!) Then you have the option of living in a low cost area where you can supplement your office income or raise some of your food with a home garden, out where land is cheap and living is abundant! We geezers never had that option. Suggest turning off mainstream news sources and going with science and technology news sites. Life is way better there, certainly more optimistic. Cities appear to be eager to burn themselves down, but it is entirely possible that would eventually happen anyway. Young people don?t need to live there. You can have a rewarding career out where quality of life is great. Life is good and getting better. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 00:13:42 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 20:13:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:06 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Will Steinberg wrote: > > snip > > > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war > warheads in the hands of god knows who. > > What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? > I'll take the L on that one (contemporary parlance, 'take the loss', i.e. admit error)--it was nuclear material I was thinking of, not weapons. There are a few missing nukes but nowhere near hundreds, though apparently there was some stir about ~100 lost suitcase nukes around the early 2000s. Also, who knows which parties have Israeli nukes. Obviously countries would not want to spread these things around but, just given the way nuclear strategy works, it makes sense for a nuclear power to have secret nuclear sharing agreements. I would reckon there are American, Russian, &c. nuclear weapons stashed around the world held by players to be activated only in case those cards need to be played. And yes, malaise is certainly the vibe among the youth these days. SR's post summed things up very well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:23:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:23:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e401d66863$35d9de50$a18d9af0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 11:41 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > wrote: > No offense to your parents, but the world is far more poised today to be destroyed than it was back then. Will, you DESPERATELY need to read Steven Pinker's book "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" to get you out of this funk, you should get it today! The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined John K Clark Will another excellent one I listened to on vacation during the drive: Forty Autumns by Nina Willner. Oh this is such a terrific book, a nonfiction memoir, great stuff, the good guys win. https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Autumns-Familys-Courage-Survival/dp/0062410326 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28510777-forty-autumns I had heard of these kinds of stories from Ukranian friends. Sounds like something pretty similar took place there during the transition of the late 1980s. I have been thinking of collecting stories of people who were there. Some locals were. If you get the audio book and don?t have time to listen to the whole thing, listen to about the last hour or so. I want to see what I can find about that dramatic episode where the fearless leader?s orders were fumbled and a radio guy announced the country was free, even though that isn?t what Honecker and Krenz meant. A fun aside: Willner reveals that the East Germans were cheating in the Olympic games with the athletes taking hormones (supposedly from research done by the Nazis.) She has an inside source on that. I had already known of it, because one of my former colleagues was a swimmer at an international meet in 1977. She had taken a shower and was getting dressed when the athletes were startled by what sounded like men coming into their locker room. Turns out it was the East German women who mysteriously sounded a lot like men (the whole team.) The had discovered steroids and were using the hell out of em before the other countries caught on. Will, do get the audiobook and listen to it, at least that last part. All of it is good, that last part is dramatic. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 00:47:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 17:47:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] fun idea. was: RE: Who has a vote that counts? Message-ID: <020601d66866$80fc0040$82f400c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat >?The WWs in the US did not suffer from those. The Depression was a somewhat mixed bag in that regard. SR Ballard Emmm, OK. SR, do let me offer an alternative view please. Young people today have *terrific* toys. The video games, the cool stuff you have these days, oh my, if only I could buy a few more decades of life, I would have such fun. Consider an idea I had while camping the last coupla wks. If you or anyone take the idea and make a buttload, all I ask is that you use your fortune to promote world peace, while noting that buying me a Maserati and a condo at Mammoth promotes world peace like nobody?s business. Perhaps you have seen those bicycle mounted trailers that proles use to haul their larvae: https://www.walmart.com/browse/sports-outdoors/bike-trailers/4125_1081404_5848968_4830099 OK cool, now imagine one of those rigs but instead of putting your cub in there, you put an electric motor and some lithium batteries. Then the car drivers give you some extra space and you look like a total jock, with the locals thinking you are hauling Junior, when really ?Junior? is hauling you, by a driven axle pushing you along. Or you could go the openly-lazy route and opt for a single-wheel cargo carrier, rig up a drive system, haul ass. With that, the proles would have the option to just be pushed along or to contribute with the pedals. Exercise, me lass! That would be a kick! You get to go outdoors, enjoy some sunshine, talk to your neighbors, make arrangements to copulate if you find a suitable candidate, generally do the kinds of things young people must do to get outta the under-30 funk. The control system on this is bonehead simple. This whole concept is simple enough I might be able to rig up something right here at home. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 04:42:22 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 23:42:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Nukes was Who has a vote In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <926393FE-849B-450C-B675-582F4F0ACC0C@gmail.com> It?s my hope that the national mood for younger people improves. And I see signs that it might in the mid-range. I see right now, economically, as 2008/9. But that means that better things are on the way, even though people don?t see it yet. I think that many Baby Boomers will be ?meeting their life expectancy? soon, which will allow current middle management to move up and more houses to become available. I also think Covid will probably reduce housing prices if there isn?t a vaccine ASAP, due to economic woes. ?Defund the police? will probably lead to more ?social work? jobs, something many people are interested in. There is a case for optimism but I think most younger people aren?t viewing it that way. SR Ballard > On Aug 1, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 8:06 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Will Steinberg wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > As well, there are likely hundreds to thousands of pilfered cold-war >> warheads in the hands of god knows who. >> >> What evidence can you cite that makes you think this? > > I'll take the L on that one (contemporary parlance, 'take the loss', i.e. admit error)--it was nuclear material I was thinking of, not weapons. There are a few missing nukes but nowhere near hundreds, though apparently there was some stir about ~100 lost suitcase nukes around the early 2000s. Also, who knows which parties have Israeli nukes. Obviously countries would not want to spread these things around but, just given the way nuclear strategy works, it makes sense for a nuclear power to have secret nuclear sharing agreements. I would reckon there are American, Russian, &c. nuclear weapons stashed around the world held by players to be activated only in case those cards need to be played. > > And yes, malaise is certainly the vibe among the youth these days. SR's post summed things up very well. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 09:09:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:09:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > meaning in life I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. -- Ben Zaiboc From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 09:26:18 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:26:18 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of choosing to log off. On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 11:10, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > > meaning in life > > I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing > I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. > > You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least > that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally > unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very > sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 09:37:11 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:37:11 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/08/2020 00:23, Spike wrote: > don?t throw away your vote: vote for your beliefs Just an observation here: If you believe that the whole system is corrupt, and voting (any way) is supporting the system, hence voting for corruption, then not voting can be a 'vote' for your beliefs. You can, of course, argue about how effective that would be, but 'throwing away your vote' can be seen as a positive statement. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 10:15:52 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 20:15:52 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of > choosing to log off. > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it were true. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 11:27:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:27:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for > their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja?* No, not if you deduce that Candidate #3 has virtually no chance of winning but you sorta like, and Candidate #2 has a good chance but would probably be stub your toe level bad, and Candidate #1 is already in power and so you know for a fact is Chicxulub Extinction Event level bad. And if you don't believe candidate #1 is really that bad then you haven't been paying attention to the situation. I repeat what I said in 2016, there is a ceiling on how much good even the very best president can do, but there is no bottom to bad, so It is far *FAR* more important to avoid electing a disastrous president than it is to elect a great one. A great president would be nice to have but we can live without one, but we can not live with a disastrous president for another 4 years and expect anything even close to the Bill of Rights to survive. *> Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not > throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with > your own beliefs.* Thanks to an idiotic clause in the US Constitution the only ones allowed to vote for the President of the United States are the 538 members of the Electoral College, and in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 election, in fact I predict the Libertarian Party will do considerably less well in this election than in the last because some people, but unfortunately not all, learn from their mistakes. You wasted your vote in 2016 and you're right on track for making the exact same blunder again in 2020. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 12:32:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:32:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:23 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Over a certain amount, there is no difference, as it would be enough to > ruin the world whether it was 1000 or 10000 bombs.* True. > *> What IS different is the delivery methods (like 'hypersonic' missiles,) > which are being improved all the time, as well as delivery platforms (like > submarines.)* No. It's true that offense is much better today than it was in 1962 but so is defense. Today there is virtually no chance for a Russian strategic bomber making it all the way to a city in the USA in a war, but that was certainly not true in 1962. And in fact the individual bombs in the nuclear Stockpiles have gotten smaller, a lot smaller. In 1961 500 B-41 H-bombs were manufactured and each had a yield of 25 megatons, that's 1667 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb. The B-41 bomb was taken out of service in 1976 because greatly increased accuracy of delivery systems made such a huge bomb unnecessary and the 10,690 pound weight of the B-41 could be better utilized by making 10 or 20 individually targeted smaller bombs. In 1963 the US developed an upgraded version of the B-41 that was 35 megatons (2,333 Hiroshimas) and only weighed 8,200 pounds, but they only made a few of those monsters. Today the largest bomb in the stockpile is just 1.2 megatons, only 80 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb, so if you're not close to a strategic target you might survive the war, or at least the first 30 minutes of it. *> I would say we are much worse off right now than we ever were in '62.* You might be right after all, I was pretty young at the time but in 1962 I don't recall anybody saying things are so hopeless we shouldn't even try to avoid a nuclear war. Will, I could be entirely wrong about this but somehow I have the feeling that your depression has more to do with chemistry than with current events. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 12:59:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:59:23 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that's not being able to let go of the past. Sad form of nostalgia. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 4:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of > choosing to log off. > > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 11:10, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> > Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >> > meaning in life >> >> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >> I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >> >> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least >> that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very >> sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 13:16:49 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:16:49 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 02/08/2020 13:33, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me > extremely sad What has that got to do with being an atheist? Are you claiming that it's religion, and not technology, that could resurrect the dead? -- Ben Zaiboc From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:48:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Corruption is the least of our problems (was: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 4) Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:39 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Just an observation here: If you believe that the whole system is > corrupt, and voting (any way) is supporting the system, hence voting for > corruption, then not voting can be a 'vote' for your beliefs. > I don't give a damn if the system is corrupt or not because it doesn't matter if you love it or hate it the system will continue to exists regardless, and you can't ignore it and expect it to leave you alone. That just won't work. And if your belief is that who becomes the president of the United States is not important then your belief is ridiculous. And if you believe the president of the United States does not control thousands of H-bombs then your belief is ridiculous. And if you believe Donald J Trump is fundamentally no different from Obama or Bush or Clinton or any of the previous 44 people who have become POTUS then your belief is ridiculous. Trump is certainly corrupt but that's the least of his vices, what makes him dangerous is his ignorance, stupidity, vindictiveness and instability. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:49:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:49:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as anything negative is patronizing. I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow some religion as anything negative is patronizing. It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 13:59:52 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:59:52 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >> choosing to log off. >> > > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it > were true. > Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:02:51 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:02:51 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But it will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable from religion (from our current perspective). On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:18, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 02/08/2020 13:33, Giulio Prisco wrote: > > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make me > > extremely sad > > What has that got to do with being an atheist? Are you claiming that > it's religion, and not technology, that could resurrect the dead? > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:03:04 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:03:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] crossroads Message-ID: "More than in any other time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness; the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly." Woody Allen bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:04:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:04:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: giulio wrote - Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. How can you call yourself a scientist? bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >>> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >>> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >>> choosing to log off. >>> >> >> You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it >> were true. >> > > Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to > believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them > supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or > we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. > >> >> >> -- >> Stathis Papaioannou >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:05:48 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:05:48 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:07:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:07:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find > meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never > see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, * Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe must imply that humans have a eternal life after death, but the non-existence of such a being means they have no chance of such a thing? Seems to me the existence of God and human immortality are two independent ideas that need not be connected, and I see no particular reason why they would be. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:27:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:27:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But it > will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable > from religion (from our current perspective).* To resurrect the dead you need an improvement in technology but unlike time machines or faster than light travel no breakthroughs in science would be needed to achieve it, you just need the technology to be able to place individual atoms and molecules where you want, in other words you need Nanotechnology. A good stage magician can do things that look really spectacular and magical until you learn the secret, and Nanotechnology can do spectacular things too, but we already know the secret. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:40:32 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:40:32 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point John. These two ideas need not necessarily be connected. But they usually are. How many atheists are open to the idea of afterlife/resurrection (natural or technological)? On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:31, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, * > > > Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an omnipotent > omniscient being who created the universe must imply that humans have a > eternal life after death, but the non-existence of such a being means > they have no chance of such a thing? Seems to me the existence of God and > human immortality are two independent ideas that need not be connected, and > I see no particular reason why they would be. > > John K Clark > > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:44:39 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:44:39 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: John I am lost. Please explain how that could work. Note that I am NOT talking of cryonics and all that. How can slightly improved tech bring back my mom who was cremated 20 years ago? On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:36, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:09 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I think it?s science and technology that will resurrect the dead. But >> it will be ultra sci/tech so advanced to be operationally indistinguishable >> from religion (from our current perspective).* > > > To resurrect the dead you need an improvement in technology but unlike > time machines or faster than light travel no breakthroughs in science > would be needed to achieve it, you just need the technology to be able to > place individual atoms and molecules where you want, in other words you > need Nanotechnology. A good stage magician can do things that look really spectacular > and magical until you learn the secret, and Nanotechnology can do > spectacular things too, but we already know the secret. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 14:47:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:47:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. giulio You don't realize that that is patronizing? Wake up! YOu are saying that atheists are missing something wonderful, hence are sad, and so you feel sorry for them. Maybe you should consult a dictionary to find out what 'patronizing' means. You clearly do not understand. What I am missing is believing in a lot of fanciful superstitions and living my life in a fantasy world where I believe anything that makes me happy. I would characterize that as something very negative, but that would be patronizing. To take something on faith means that you will believe it no matter whether it makes sense or whether there is any evidence for it. Oh , wait, you don't believe in evidence. You believe in fantasy. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 14:56:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 07:56:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:10:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:10:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > meaning in life I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. -- Ben Zaiboc _______________________________________________ Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and nightclubs kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports people. We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. Now I have no social contacts. We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer some social benefits which are hard to replace. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 15:17:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 11:17:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *>> ?*and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark >> > > > > ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. > *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:23:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:23:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014101d668e0$d27c41d0$7774c570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio >?Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back?. Giulio I finally convinced my own family that cryonics is perfectly compatible with some forms of fundamentalist religion, specifically one which holds that death is analogous to a big sleep, after which we are re-assembled from atoms, not the same ones but the same kind. During the death phase one ?exists? only as an inert file in a supernatural memory of sorts. That notion is perfectly compatible with cryonics. What if? both are right: cryonics works, we get frozen, nanotech comes along, we get uploaded into something in such a form that can interact with meat-world humans. Then what if? the cryonaut was in that religion, zombie apocalypse comes along, deity resurrects believers in accordance with the deal, then the newly formed meat-guy could interact with his own software self. Like two brothers always messing with each other, imagine how they could harass each other, the gags they could pull. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 15:56:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 08:56:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> ?and in 2016 I predicted? John K Clark > ?that we would be in a nuclear war in 2017, ja we know. SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!! John K Clark My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? extinction level event.? ??just turn s? out to be a very bad presadent and not an? extinction level event?? We are not extinct as far as I can tell. Here?s where we were in 2016: >?He's already done it on Twitter but I want Trump to do it in the debate for all the world to see that this is the sort of man who's asking for your vote, this is the sort of man who wants to control the world's most powerful nuclear arsenal? John K Clark 18 Oct 2016 >?This is why I've insulted Trump so often lately, I want to get it out of my system now while I still can, if I do it after January 20 1917 I could end up in one of Trump's concentration camps with the millions of other people he wants to deport?? John K Clark? 22 Oct 2016 ?>?Forget the list, is ANYTHING ?going to continue after the election? I don't know, all I know is that there are 2 bullets in the 6-shooter aimed at our head and the trigger gets pulled on Tuesday. And some people still think a protest vote is a good idea!! John K Clark 4 November 2016 >? The thought of hundreds of macho FBI agents feverishly combing through Weiner's computer and finding nothing but dick pictures would be comical if it didn't lead to a 35% chance of Donald Trump becoming president and the end of the world as we know it?John K Clark 6 November 2016 >?Two bullets are loaded into the six shooter. The cylinder is spun at random. The revolver is pointed at your head. The trigger is pulled. The hammer falls and .... John K Clark 8 November 2016 ?>?If Hugh Everett's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is correct then that will certainly happen in some universe; we'll know in about 12 hours if we're lucky enough to be living in it.?..John K Clark? 8 November 2016 ?>?Yes, as all will discover when Trump and the Republican controlled congress change the libel laws so a sitting president can sue a newspaper or website out of existence if they say something about the commander in chief he doesn't like? 9 November 2016 >?but at this point angry words serve no purpose, all I can do now is hope I was wrong about him and he just turn s? out to be a very bad presadent and not an? extinction level event. S?o I will say no more about Trump? 9 November 2016 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 16:35:41 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: giulio: > If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. bill w: > How can you call yourself a scientist? Somehow this reminds me of a couple of conversations. Me: "I once had a book of science humor, about which the remarkable thing was--" Dad: "It wasn't funny?" Me: "On the contrary. It was stuff that scientists would find funny, rather than stories *about* scientists that a journalist found funny. Now maybe I have no right to say that, as I'm not a scientist." Dad (a scientist) made some inarticulate protest. Me: "Well, we can say I'm culturally a scientist." And: Me: "I don't call myself a mathematician because I've never proven an original theorem." Other: "That's how I know you're a real mathematician." -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 16:41:14 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:41:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* > > > *My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? > extinction level event.?* And I stand by that statement! The fact that a man as unstable and ignorant as Donald J Trump has control of thousands of H-Bombs has every day for the last 3 1/2 years increased the likelihood that another Chicxulub level Extinction event will occur. It hasn't happened yet but each day he remains in power increases the chance that it will. But the odds are on our side, even if Trump is reelected I would estimate there's a 75% chance such a disaster will NOT happen and you and everybody you know or have even heard of will NOT be vaporized in the next 4 years. But even if Humans survive there's virtually no chance the US Constitution or anything in the Bill Of Rights would survive, not even the most important part, or at least the most important part to most Trump fans, the second amendment. By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for Trump. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 16:45:57 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 18:45:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:21, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > giulio wrote - Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. > > How can you call yourself a scientist? bill w > I don?t. > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 12:17, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 19:27, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people who find >>>> meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. Thinking that I?ll never >>>> see my loved departed ones would make me extremely sad, to the point of >>>> choosing to log off. >>>> >>> >>> You can't believe something just because it would make you happy if it >>> were true. >>> >> >> Sure I can. If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. I choose to >> believe that either there are natural (or feel free to call them >> supernatural) mechanisms of afterlife/resurrection in the universe, or >> we?ll engineer such mechanisms and find ways ti bring everyone back. >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Stathis Papaioannou >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 17:13:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:13:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>>? SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!! >> My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? extinction level event.? >?And I stand by that statement! ? OK. Noted and archived. I disagree. >?By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for Trump. John K Clark That one is easy for two reasons: I wasn?t horrified because I am not a Trump follower. Jorgensen is my favorite of this bunch of yahoos. Secondly, it doesn?t matter if POTUS wants to delay an election, because POTUS doesn?t control that process, states do. Ours is the United States, not the United People of America. It?s a feature, not a bug. States run elections, they figure out who gets to go to the Electoral College, the Supreme Court decides who won at the EC in December, new POTUS sworn in by SCOTUS on 20 January, POTUS has no say in any of that. It?s a great system. I love the constitution. The anvil wears out the hammers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:16:19 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 7:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > If truth means unhappiness, then screw truth. > Screwing truth almost always means more unhappiness, eventually. The family that I was born with will eventually die, while (if cryonics-then-resurrection, be it uploading or biological, works) I will live on. I will likely some day make a new family to replace them - adopted siblings and/or children, or perhaps a wife and biological children, either way people I do not yet know today and who I will have to make new memories with. My earliest experiences will someday be mine alone, with no surviving people who have shared them. I have made peace with this. Already there are people I knew and shared many experiences with, who have met the end of their tales and did not choose to (potentially, someday) keep going. There are others with whom I shared many experiences (including some who I was quite good friends with at the time), who probably still live but moved away or otherwise are no longer in a position to interact with me, and whom I do not expect to interact with again - not even to hear when they die. (For example, basically everyone I went to university with. My classmates went our separate ways after graduation. The reunions I attended grouped different classes together to the point that I didn't run into any classmates, and none of the faculty present had been my teachers.) This is life. I do not cling to the past. Sure, I have done quite a lot to be proud of, but what matters to me is the future I shall help make. (In one of my social circles, there is a joke about how often I keep citing certain works I have made over the past few years. But I made those works to be useful in a variety of situations, which situations keep coming up - so I point to an appropriate work when they do. The works are essentially literary tools, endlessly reusable so long as the use case they were made for remains relevant.) If I am to inhabit a better tomorrow, I shall have to help build it. I have not yet lived even one percent of ten thousand years - and, arbitrary as that number is, I may live much longer than that, technology and circumstance willing. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 17:33:34 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <72dd08d3-c12c-2750-57f4-a227fdc89af1@pobox.com> On 2020-8-02 04:27, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian > party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by > events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 > election [...] I hope that the Biparty is properly grateful for your efforts to ensure that remains true now and forever. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:34:41 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 10:34:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 17:59:14 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:59:14 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How can you so confidently say that 4 more years of Trump means the constitution and bill of rights will be gone?! That's such a strong statement. What is your rationale for that? I think it would be bad, but saying "We will 100% chance have no constitution" is just about the strongest statement you could make. You were wrong about the same thing happening over the past four years. Unlike Spike, I don't necessarily consider the constitution as strong as an anvil in a vacuum. However, it is supported by and supports all political and social contracts in this country, much like a tree generates roots, but the tensile strengthen of the roots keeps the tree standing. It is not easy to get rid of the constitution. It is a worry that it will be amended in some bad way, but it is hardly a guarantee that it will be anulled. It is silly to say that. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 12:42 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *SHOW ME WHERE I PREDICTED THAT!!* >> >> > > > *My mistake, you didn?t specify nuclear war. Only a possible ? >> extinction level event.?* > > > And I stand by that statement! The fact that a man as unstable and > ignorant as Donald J Trump has control of thousands of H-Bombs has every > day for the last 3 1/2 years increased the likelihood that another > Chicxulub level Extinction event will occur. It hasn't happened yet but > each day he remains in power increases the chance that it will. But the > odds are on our side, even if Trump is reelected I would estimate there's a > 75% chance such a disaster will NOT happen and you and everybody you know > or have even heard of will NOT be vaporized in the next 4 years. But even > if Humans survive there's virtually no chance the US Constitution or > anything in the Bill Of Rights would survive, not even the most important > part, or at least the most important part to most Trump fans, the second > amendment. > > By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by his > comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother you > one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I can't > imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses for > Trump. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:14:56 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 20:14:56 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 19:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >>> anything negative is patronizing. >>> >>> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >>> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >>> >>> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >>> >> >> I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> > > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near > insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:18:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:18:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <00fc01d668dd$271de4e0$7559aea0$@rainier66.com> <017901d668e5$875a2640$960e72c0$@rainier66.com> <01a001d668f0$4b83d8e0$e28b8aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 1:16 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >>?By the way, even many Trump supporters were absolutely horrified by >> his comments about delaying the election, but I'm sure that didn't bother >> you one teeny tiny bit, I'm sure you can find some excuses for them, I >> can't imagine what they would be but you're always good at finding excuses >> for Trump. John K Clark > > > > *I wasn?t horrified* > Well of course you weren't, I'm not one bit surprised. > *because I am not a Trump follower. * > I'm not a Trump supporter either, but I sure as hell was *HORRIFIED**!* > *POTUS doesn?t control that process* So POTUS can't violate the Constitution because the Constitution says POTUS can't violate the Constitution, and the Constitution is as unbreakable as the Second Law of Thermodynamics. And that's why no politician in the history of the world has ever violated the Constitution of the nation he is in, and no nation has ever drifted into totalitarianism. So stop being vigilant and the next time Trump does something outrageous (aka tomorrow), don't worry, be happy, and just smile. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 18:54:54 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:54:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> If you shouldn?t vote based on polls, then you wouldn?t know who has ?virtually no chance? of winning... SR Ballard > On Aug 2, 2020, at 6:27 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 7:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > If deciding a vote based on polls is crazy, then one should vote for their favorite party, regardless of what the polls say, ja? > > No, not if you deduce that Candidate #3 has virtually no chance of winning but you sorta like, and Candidate #2 has a good chance but would probably be stub your toe level bad, and Candidate #1 is already in power and so you know for a fact is Chicxulub Extinction Event level bad. And if you don't believe candidate #1 is really that bad then you haven't been paying attention to the situation. I repeat what I said in 2016, there is a ceiling on how much good even the very best president can do, but there is no bottom to bad, so It is far FAR more important to avoid electing a disastrous president than it is to elect a great one. A great president would be nice to have but we can live without one, but we can not live with a disastrous president for another 4 years and expect anything even close to the Bill of Rights to survive. > >> > Since one?s vote is very important to minority parties, the way to not throw away your vote is to vote for the party which is most aligned with your own beliefs. > > Thanks to an idiotic clause in the US Constitution the only ones allowed to vote for the President of the United States are the 538 members of the Electoral College, and in 2016 I predicted that the Libertarian party would not win one single electoral vote, and I was proven by events to be correct. I repeat that same prediction today for the 2020 election, in fact I predict the Libertarian Party will do considerably less well in this election than in the last because some people, but unfortunately not all, learn from their mistakes. You wasted your vote in 2016 and you're right on track for making the exact same blunder again in 2020. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 2 19:00:34 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:00:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84095C4C-1180-4C1C-81CE-111EC5A0304B@alumni.virginia.edu> Not-sad atheist right here. I don?t think I?m the exception either. From here, I see plenty of theists that seem guilty, angry, aggressive, worried, anxious, scared, insecure. But I?d never generalize or stereotype as I also see happy as clams Ned Flanders? and Ned Flanders? wannabes and suicide bomber ?martyrs? gleeful in anticipation of the afterlife with virgins (if they only knew what that would really be like). I don?t mean to be pejorative to religious folks (although suicide bombers who take out bystanders can go fuck themselves?I?m big on consent). I will fight oppression, inquisitions, and holy wars. I love my peaceful muslim friends and my Mormon friends and transhumanists. Live and let live is one of my mantras. Apology accepted GP. Rather than not express that impression here, consider gathering more data to inform your opinion. I?d suggest that atheists are a diverse group. Just as are extropians and transhumanists. -Henry > On Aug 2, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 19:41, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 7:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>>> On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 15:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as anything negative is patronizing. >>>> >>>> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >>>> >>>> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >>> >>> I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> >> Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > > Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. > >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 19:09:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:09:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. >?Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t express this feeling here again. Hi Giulio no worries, that sentiment is very common, no offense taken. Most of my family is religious, I am a flaming atheist. I don?t make noise about that, nor do I hide it if asked. They don?t understand how I could possibly have any happiness within, even though I clearly appear to. They don?t understand why I have any moral or ethical constraints, even if I explain that morals and ethics are not the property of any particular religion or deity. They don?t accept it. They don?t understand how I can have any hope for the future, even though I clearly do. I explain that my hope isn?t for eternity, but rather a deep and meaningful hope for right now, and a deep and meaningful hope for the easily foreseeable, both of which I have more of than I can easily justify. But hey, I am that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:21:50 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:21:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> I don?t think that linking a decline in religiousity to a decline in meaning of life is a negative statement about people who are not religious. Religion provides an emotional answer to the questions ? ?why am I here?? ?how am I special?? ?what am I supposed to do with my life?? ? Without religion, the answers to these questions are non-emotional, but rather factual. A while back (months?) on the list I saw a few emails about how ?we create our own meaning of life? and that?s exactly my point. If group A has it spoon fed to them they have 100% meaning of life. If group B has to figure it out, then the population can approach but never achieve 100%. Similarly if group A attends or can attend regular religious meetings, 100% of them have a vast social network. If group B has to make any form of effort to create a social network, then the population can approach but never achieve 100% access to that size of social network. This doesn?t imply anything negative about religious feelings, or lack thereof. Any religious person or person who is not religious can have a meaning of life, a vast social network, and achieve what they will. But what I am saying is that social connections and goals make people happy, and one group has prefab connections and goals, and the other had to make conscious effort to achieve the same. If effort is required, automatically less people will do something, because of opportunity cost. SR Ballard From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:32:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:32:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> References: <016b01d6685a$b8970a60$29c51f20$@rainier66.com> <0B8BC983-EE82-40E0-AFA5-4004F50D4155@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:57 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If you shouldn?t vote based on polls, then you wouldn?t know who has > ?virtually no chance? of winning...* Polls are not the only source of information, or the most important one. If the election is in early November and it's August and there is virtually no mention of the Libertarian Party candidates for POTUS (are there any yet??) in newspapers or new sites or on social media or on TV or in conversation with people you meet, but there is plenty of mention of Trump and Biden, then you can safely conclude that pigs will fly before Mr. Nobody from the Libertarian Party becomes POTUS. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:35:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:35:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> References: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, fewer people. Why? Lazy, credulous, non-critical thinkers. Lack of alternatives. We need a church. Another thing: when did you encounter atheists? If you weren't raised by them, you likely did not encounter any before, say, high school, or even college. Then you have to overturn a lifetime of belief. And mostly people, me for one, did it by themselves. This is hardly a good way to expand our 'membership'. And we have no p.r. When did you ever see some goodwill kind of thing attributed to atheists? We apparently have no motivations for do-gooding and turning people. . Maybe it's because we want to be left alone and so we do that to religious people. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I don?t think that linking a decline in religiousity to a decline in > meaning of life is a negative statement about people who are not religious. > > Religion provides an emotional answer to the questions ? ?why am I here?? > ?how am I special?? ?what am I supposed to do with my life?? ? Without > religion, the answers to these questions are non-emotional, but rather > factual. > > A while back (months?) on the list I saw a few emails about how ?we create > our own meaning of life? and that?s exactly my point. > > If group A has it spoon fed to them they have 100% meaning of life. If > group B has to figure it out, then the population can approach but never > achieve 100%. > > Similarly if group A attends or can attend regular religious meetings, > 100% of them have a vast social network. If group B has to make any form of > effort to create a social network, then the population can approach but > never achieve 100% access to that size of social network. > > This doesn?t imply anything negative about religious feelings, or lack > thereof. Any religious person or person who is not religious can have a > meaning of life, a vast social network, and achieve what they will. > > But what I am saying is that social connections and goals make people > happy, and one group has prefab connections and goals, and the other had to > make conscious effort to achieve the same. > > If effort is required, automatically less people will do something, > because of opportunity cost. > > SR Ballard > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 19:40:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:40:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Maybe we could find a document (such as the Humanist Manifesto) or create one that includes all of our beliefs. Then we could point people to that rather than exhaustively telling people what we believe. Are any of you now or in the past members of the Unitarian Church? Maybe that could be our meeting place, our social support group. Ballard is right: we don't have any organizations (not that I love those) that do good for the human race, provide social support and all that she said. Religious people often proselytize. We don't. Maybe we should approach people and give them our 'testimony'. Sounds absurd,doesn't it? But in a way we are in a battle with them. People are dropping out of churches, though not necessarily without losing their faith. And not necessarily becoming skeptics and all that. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 2:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > > > > Speaking as an atheist: that is a negative comment about us. Darn near > insulting, in fact. Certainly patronizing. > > > > >?Sorry for that, I apologize to everyone who feels insulted, and I won?t > express this feeling here again. > > > > Hi Giulio no worries, that sentiment is very common, no offense taken. > > > > Most of my family is religious, I am a flaming atheist. I don?t make > noise about that, nor do I hide it if asked. They don?t understand how I > could possibly have any happiness within, even though I clearly appear to. > They don?t understand why I have any moral or ethical constraints, even if > I explain that morals and ethics are not the property of any particular > religion or deity. They don?t accept it. They don?t understand how I can > have any hope for the future, even though I clearly do. I explain that my > hope isn?t for eternity, but rather a deep and meaningful hope for right > now, and a deep and meaningful hope for the easily foreseeable, both of > which I have more of than I can easily justify. But hey, I am that way. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:01:24 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:01:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: <04505033-12B2-44AF-B3CF-EF0F9900330E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Atheism isn't a group; it's the default. Goddist glom together because they want to be with each other in fellowship. I have no inherent fellowship with those left from {universal set} minus the {set of goddists} Even among the goddists, they subdivide into flavors and brands... even within a particular church, not every generation is consistently believing according to their model numbers. Or have I mischaracterized atheism's definition of "us" as "not-them"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:31:20 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:31:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > Do you think it?s patronising to say, for example, that people who think the Earth is flat are wrong? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 20:38:30 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:38:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Some uplifting news: SpaceX home safe... Message-ID: https://apnews.com/bf77af89c527340793d15a9957d30c84 CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. (AP) ? Two NASA astronauts returned to Earth on Sunday in a dramatic, retro-style splashdown, their capsule parachuting into the Gulf of Mexico to close out an unprecedented test flight by Elon Musk?s SpaceX company. It was the first splashdown by U.S. astronauts in 45 years, with the first commercially built and operated spacecraft to carry people to and from orbit. The return clears the way for another SpaceX crew launch as early as next month and possible tourist flights next year. Test pilots Doug Hurley and Bob Behnken rode the SpaceX Dragon capsule back to Earth less than a day after departing the International Space Station and two months after blasting off from Florida. The capsule parachuted into the calm gulf waters about 40 miles off the coast of Pensacola, hundreds of miles from Tropical Storm Isaias pounding Florida?s Atlantic coast. ?Welcome back to planet Earth and thanks for flying SpaceX,? said Mission Control from SpaceX headquarters. ?It was truly our honor and privilege,? replied Hurley. More than an hour after splashdown, the astronauts emerged from their capsule on the deck of a recovery ship, both signaling a thumbs-up as they headed for medical exams. Their ride home in the capsule dubbed Endeavour was fast, bumpy and hot, at least on the outside. The spacecraft went from a screaming orbital speed of 17,500 mph (28,000 kph) to 350 mph (560 kph) during atmospheric reentry, and finally to 15 mph (24 kph) at splashdown. Peak heating during descent was 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit (1,900 degrees Celsius). The anticipated top G forces felt by the crew: four to five times the force of Earth?s gravity. Within a half-hour of splashdown, the scorched and blistered 15-foot capsule was on board a SpaceX recovery ship with a staff of more than 40, including doctors and nurses. To keep the returning astronauts safe in the pandemic, the recovery crew quarantined for two weeks and were tested for the coronavirus. The opening of the hatch was held up briefly by extra checks for toxic rocket fumes outside the capsule. After medical exams, the astronauts were expected to fly home to Houston for a reunion with their wives and sons. Hurley offered final thanks just before he exited the capsule. ?Anybody who?s touched Endeavour, you should take a moment to just cherish the day, especially given all the things that have happened this year.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 21:01:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:01:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <749630ac-dc74-27e3-f801-587bdbe37e01@pobox.com> On 2020-8-02 03:15, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > You can't believe something just because it would make you happy > if it were true. Well you *can*, but it brings into question the meaning of "believe". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 21:07:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:07:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2020 12:41 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists/religion >?Maybe we could find a document (such as the Humanist Manifesto) or create one that includes all of our beliefs? bill w There is a transhumanist manifesto of sorts, the Extropian Principals, which is how a lot of us got here to start with. When I read this document in about Autumn 1993, it was ELECTRIFYING! Like a bolt from the clear sky. I remember thinking, this cat is saying what I have been thinking for a long time: http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? You were the guy who had that nice suit as I recall. There were four in your group as I vaguely recall, and you guys all had that style thing going big time. I got to thinking: OK, if this is an example of Italian people, no wonder they build such cool-looking cars. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 2 21:16:07 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 14:16:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> References: <7060dd62-551e-5175-dfa6-c1de919790d6@pobox.com> <017701d6685b$baa07980$2fe16c80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <09d586fe-5d16-2232-b72e-2eb554ceb934@pobox.com> On 2020-8-01 16:30, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > *On Behalf Of *Nuala Thomson via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? > > >?In Australia I tend to vote Greens? > > Your Democrat/Republican parties would be closest related to our > Labour/Liberal parties. > > 2 party systems suck?? Anton Is there another Anton here?? > Hi Anton, > > If I didn?t vote libertarian I would probably vote Green.? [....] -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 21:49:01 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 22:49:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> On 02/08/2020 15:57, Giulio Prisco wrote: > Good point John. These two ideas need not necessarily be connected. > But they usually are. How many atheists are open to the idea of > afterlife/resurrection (natural or technological)? > > On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 16:31, John Clark via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:28 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > /> Well, I?m sure many atheists are very good and moral people > who find meaning in life, but I also think they are sad. > Thinking that I?ll never see my loved departed ones would make > me extremely sad, / > > > Why do so many people just assume that the existence of an > omnipotent omniscient being who created the universe must imply > that humans have a eternal life after death, but the non-existence > of such a being means they have no chance of such a thing? Seems > to me the existence of God and human immortality are two > independent ideas that need not be connected, and I see no > particular reason why they would be. > > John K Clark > Again, how is this relevant? You might as well ask how many atheists are open to putting peanut butter in a cheese sandwich, or how many atheists are open to the idea of snowboarding in the nude. I don't know what 'natural afterlife/resurrection' means. The whole point of pursuing a technological solution is that we know it doesn't just happen by itself. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sun Aug 2 21:56:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 22:56:17 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3be77438-fdfd-28fd-dd71-6c96d813b454@zaiboc.net> On 02/08/2020 18:59, Spike wrote: > Now I have no social contacts. Sure you do. You have social contacts in the world of education, scouting, biking (bikers are never alone, they're always waving at each other!), and, you know, certain online social groups. I think people are less socially isolated now than ever before. And what has enabled that? Not religion, for sure. Rather, its opposite: Technology! -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:00:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 17:00:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's one thing to say they are wrong, and another to feel sad for them. The latter is patronizing. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 3:33 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sun, 2 Aug 2020 at 23:57, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as >> anything negative is patronizing. >> >> I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow >> some religion as anything negative is patronizing. >> >> It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. >> > > Do you think it?s patronising to say, for example, that people who think > the Earth is flat are wrong? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:09:33 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 15:09:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > anything negative is patronizing. > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. It still leaves room for the meta question of why humans have religions at all? Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past. Since it is common in Africa, the selection must have been before humans left Africa, something like 60k years ago. I suspect the selection for religions was the same as the selection for the traits behind wars. At the root, religions are xenophobic meme. The trait for religions is less common than the capture-bonding trait, so the selection may have been less intense. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:28:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 17:28:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At the root, religions are xenophobic meme. keith Oh, we are born xenophobic, all right. But the other side of that coin is intragroup cohesion and loyalty. On a day to day basis that might be more important. One climbs up the ladder: first parents, then tribe, the tribe leader. then spiritual leader (sometimes a paranoid schizophrenic having delusions and hallucinations, which are still regarded in parts of Africa as evidence of contact with the spirit world), then the god or gods the shaman contacts. A natural progression towards having a local, tribal god - and Jehova was certainly the Jew's god and the god of no one else until being adopted by Christians, most of whom were Jews at the beginning. bill w On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 5:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I think for anyone who follows a religion, to characterize atheists as > > anything negative is patronizing. > > > > I think for anyone who is an atheist, to characterize people who follow > > some religion as anything negative is patronizing. > > > > It ain't nothin' but bigotry, folks. Either way. > > It still leaves room for the meta question of why humans have religions at > all? > > Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in > terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our > past. Since it is common in Africa, the selection must have been > before humans left Africa, something like 60k years ago. > > I suspect the selection for religions was the same as the selection > for the traits behind wars. At the root, religions are xenophobic > meme. > > The trait for religions is less common than the capture-bonding trait, > so the selection may have been less intense. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:06:39 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2020 23:06:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Test Message-ID: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> Test Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:14:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:14:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Jokers was atheists/religion Message-ID: Though I was raised in a religion, it didn't stick with me past the first semester of college. I have lost some of the details, but this was at a time when my grandparents (Mother's parents) were living on a farm near Sparta, TN. Before the era of heavy mechanization, farms had to have extra labor, in some cases relatives, in others hired help or both. The labor was usually live in and ate with the family. One of these hired hands endlessly talked about how he was waiting for the word from God to go preach. It got annoying around the dinner table. My mom's family included a lot of jokers One day this hired hand and one of my mom's uncles were out hoeing a field. This uncle (a rather tall one) noted that the prospective preacher was hoeing from one side of the field toward a line of china berry (also known as mulberry) trees on the end of the field. These trees have very thick foliage. When he reached the end of the row he was working on, he reached up into the tree and pulled himself up till he was well concealed. The victim of the prank came hoeing down the field till he was under the tree. Cupping his hands and using a deep voice the uncle said "Go Preach!" The man looked around wildly and the voice repeated "Go-o-o-o Preach!" According to the story, the man threw down his hoe and ran off--never to be seen again. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 2 23:27:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:27:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] eximod Message-ID: <00fc01d66924$88eeaa50$9acbfef0$@rainier66.com> Greetings fellow ExI-ers, For three good reasons and one really bad one (listed at the end of this post for the curious reader) I have chosen to stand down forthwith as ExI moderator. I have selected a new one (which is how I got that job 21 yrs ago) and wish to try a fun little experiment: the new moderator's identity will remain in the shadows. His or her @ is ExiMod at protonmail.com I have known him or her for a long time and know this person to be fair, smart, kindhearted, charitable. Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous. etc. But not reverent. This person gets thru number 11 on the old scout law and stumbles at the finish line. In any case, if you have a moderator request, post it to ExiMod at protonmail.com but not me for I have relinquished this burdensome omnimpotence of Exi moderation without taking any actions on my way out. Carry on, my friends. I will still be here, still posting silliness and some fun ideas. But I won't be doing Exi moderation, nor have I the password to ExiMod at protonmail. Sincerely, your former moderator and now ordinary prole, spike Good reasons: I have three new jobs I am taking on.: I have been chosen as STEM counselor for scouts, a job I intend to take seriously. I have agreed to be the coach of the high school competitive math team, a task which has already started via Zoom, and I have agreed to be a tutor for advanced math students at the HS. Really bad reason: the biopsy results brought horrifying news for someone I care about. I need to be available to get down there on short notice if called upon to help him and his family. Might be out intermittently. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 23:37:17 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 16:37:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Test In-Reply-To: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> References: <64aikMVu4JMGcLgB8uNjEgiKL4bkhnY-ioZf5jou9dv6POe9iGexLiMNi8e1OPRt67u9To3C8K6nKSGmw1qLYdFvWwsDJL1dcGgNp-K-Pns=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Received. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 4:08 PM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Test > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 06:34:02 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:34:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 23:10, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio > Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at > Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? You were the guy who had that > nice suit as I recall. There were four in your group as I vaguely recall, > and you guys all had that style thing going big time. I got to thinking: > OK, if this is an example of Italian people, no wonder they build such > cool-looking cars. > it wasn?t me, I have never been at an Extro conference. I think we met once, but perhaps at a Singularity Summit? > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 07:56:33 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:56:33 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life In-Reply-To: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> References: <6e166111-b3f0-9c58-65f4-32ba85115f2e@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 11:50 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > I don't know what 'natural afterlife/resurrection' means. The whole point of pursuing a technological solution is that we know it doesn't just happen by itself. > But we don't. > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 10:44:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:44:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in terms > of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be very convincing; the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the near universal appeal of music, the most abstract of all the arts. It could be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that do confirm an advantage. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 10:49:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:49:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 12:46, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in >> terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* >> > > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be > very convincing; the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the > near universal appeal of music, the most abstract of all the arts. It could > be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any > sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that > do confirm an advantage. > Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps performing fearlessly in battle. > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:16:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:16:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 10:26 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I agree. But I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I > think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. > That's patronizing. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:35:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:35:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:53 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps > performing fearlessly in battle.* Fear confers an obvious evolutionary advantage, individuals who are absolutely fearless would not live very long. Too much courage would be bad as would too little, so the amount of courage in a population would probably follow a normal distribution curve aroud an optomal point. I can see an evolutionary advantage in admiring and thus hanging around someone who is more courageous then I am so he could be the first one to sneak up on a woolly mammoth and try to stick a wooden spear with a flint tip Into the enormous beast. The anamal is far too big for him to eat all by himself, so if his attack is successful I'll be able to pick up lots of scraps. And if the attack is unsuccessful, as such a dangerous activaty very well might be, well ... better him than me; It's time to look around for somebody else who is braver than I am. Such a strategy could result in more of my genes getting into the next generation that any of the genes from any of the superheros. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 11:48:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:48:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they >> are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >> > > >That's patronizing. > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 13:17:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:17:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <004901d66900$8483b970$8d8b2c50$@rainier66.com> <006301d66910$dfee06c0$9fca1440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d66998$797c67f0$6c7537d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: Re: [ExI] atheists/religion On 2020. Aug 2., Sun at 23:10, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Until I went looking for this, I didn?t realize how much our own Giulio Prisco did back in the olden days. Giulio, weren?t you one of the lads at Extro3? 4? I think we met briefly, ja? ? >?it wasn?t me, I have never been at an Extro conference. I think we met once, but perhaps at a Singularity Summit? OK cool thanks, perhaps so. I went to the Singularity Summits if they were local. We had one at UC San Francisco, one at Berkeley, the best one of all was at Stanford. This Extrocon I was thinking of was where these four Italian guys were cutting up and saying fun interesting things. Everybody liked them. Never been there, but Italy must have a lotta money. The cars made there are really expensive. I heard they have a church, called the Sixteen Chapel or something like that, several thousand bucks worth of paintings on the ceiling alone! Bet we could rig up quad-rotor drones with web cameras that could be controlled from the ground, charge the proles to fly up and get a closer look, let them battle it out in there, that sorta thing. We could make some real money. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:20:02 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 13:20:02 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision Message-ID: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads that have nothing to do with politics. There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one warning to stop that behavior. Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to provide time for tempers to cool down. Further action should not be required. Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! ExiMod Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 13:49:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 06:49:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of ExiMod via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. ? >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >?ExiMod Thanks ExiMod! I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it sane. Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who went away see if you can get them to stop by please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:01:27 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:01:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anders too On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 09:50 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. ? > > > > >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > >?ExiMod > > > > > > Thanks ExiMod! > > > > I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, > see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing > else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it > sane. > > > > Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find > him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she > always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha > Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear > another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath > as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the > planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who > went away see if you can get them to stop by please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:03:50 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:03:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anders and Robin. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. ? > > > > >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > >?ExiMod > > > > > > Thanks ExiMod! > > > > I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, > see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing > else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it > sane. > > > > Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find > him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she > always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha > Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear > another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath > as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the > planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who > went away see if you can get them to stop by please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:10:10 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:10:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Ben > Zaiboc via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) > > On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: > >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of > > meaning in life > > I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing > I'd > expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. > > You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that > is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally > unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad > people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once > provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and > nightclubs > kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for > those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports > people. > > > We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being > interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. > There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. > Now I have no social contacts. > > We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer > some social benefits which are hard to replace. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 14:20:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:20:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> I live in Santa Clara County CA, but within walking distance of the next county so (after all this time) it finally occurred to me I should be tracking covid fatalities there as well. I found the graphs on their site. Then. I found these comments in their disclaimers: . The County only provides this data as a resource, but does not, and cannot, confirm or guarantee the accuracy of the data. . Cumulative deaths are for both positive cases and suspected cases. . Some of these deaths may include residents who had COVID-19, but died of something else. Given these complexities, fatality totals may not exactly match other data sources or, in some instances, the death may be double counted in more than one data source such as county-level fatality totals.. . All data are provided to offer a snapshot of COVID-19 and does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility. https://ac-hcsa.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/610c4a6e02414a a6b68e3bf3f331be2f Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment (as my friend's business dies of starvation.)))) Suggestions or comments welcome please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 14:25:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 07:25:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010e01d669a1$e8c53de0$ba4fb9a0$@rainier66.com> Anders and Robin. Thanks Dave. Robin unsubscribed a coupla days ago, not because of any objection to content, but rather because we couldn?t get his server to cooperate with the ExI server. It kept bouncing his @gmu.edu and we never did figure out why. He mentioned he will be back later, but now he is getting ready for his classes and probably couldn?t post much anyway. Anders I already contacted. He is doing well. Good chance he will drop in soon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:04:27 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:04:27 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <00b401d6699c$e270db70$a7529250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 16:09, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Anders and Robin. > It would be good to have some oldtimers back! > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:51 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *ExiMod via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* [ExI] Exi List Supervision >> >> >> >> >?Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >> >> >> >> >?The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >> futile and upsets many list members. ? >> >> >> >> >?Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >> >> >> >> >?ExiMod >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks ExiMod! >> >> >> >> I have half a mind to contact some of the old timers who gave up on us, >> see if I can cajole them into dropping back in just to say hello if nothing >> else, explain there is a new sheriff in town and we intend to keep it >> sane. >> >> >> >> Last I heard from Eugen Leitl was about 6 yrs ago, but I think I can find >> him again. I heard Amara Graps was dealing with some challenges but she >> always wrote cool interesting stuff. I don?t know where the heck Samantha >> Adkins went. Lee Corbin has passed on, Hal Finney is gone, and I fear >> another one of the good guys from Massachusetts has taken the old LN2 bath >> as well. I know some others who might still be around somewhere on the >> planet. Other suggestions please? If you have former ExI-er friends who >> went away see if you can get them to stop by please. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ > > >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:14:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:14:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything about Trump) - bottom line. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > Further action should not be required. > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > ExiMod > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:32:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:32:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, if anything. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of >> Ben >> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >> >> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >> > meaning in life >> >> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >> I'd >> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >> >> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that >> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad >> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and >> nightclubs >> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for >> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports >> people. >> >> >> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too >> boring. >> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and >> boring. >> Now I have no social contacts. >> >> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer >> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 15:44:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:44:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were told it was about 3%. Stan county also had its disclaimer: NUMBER_DIED Numeric Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local health departments based on the cause of death reported on death certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths are also counted in "Positive Cases". Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those who died OF covid. The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and to a large extent what businesses can stay open. Here's where we are: EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020: _____ California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of indoor operations for the following sectors: * Restaurants * Wineries and Tasting Rooms * Family Entertainment Centers * Movie Theaters * Zoos and Museums * Cardrooms * Fitness Centers * Worship Services * Offices for Non-Critical Sectors * Hair Salons and Barbershops * Malls All is not lost: These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by pick-up. Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat house. Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and maybes. Businesses are perishing. Oh mercy. Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the parking lot gawking) please look up your county's or nation's covid website and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:52:26 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:52:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> They don?t know either. As a Church they used to have a well defined set of beliefs: Unitarian: God is one, not made of 3 persons. That is, they did not believe in the trinity. Universalist: That ultimately, all people will be ?saved?. Now the church is an odd vestage without and real beliefs beyond ?free and responsible search for truth and meaning? For an overview of the ?six sources and seven principles?: We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote: The inherent worth and dignity of every person; Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations; Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations; A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large; The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part. The living tradition which we share draws from many sources: Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life; Words and deeds of prophetic people which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love; Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life; Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves; Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit; Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature. Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another our mutual trust and support. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >> Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. > > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, if anything. bill w >> >>> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Ben >>> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >>> >>> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >>> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >>> > meaning in life >>> >>> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing I'd >>> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >>> >>> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least that >>> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >>> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very sad >>> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zaiboc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >>> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and nightclubs >>> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well for >>> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports people. >>> >>> >>> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >>> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too boring. >>> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and boring. >>> Now I have no social contacts. >>> >>> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does offer >>> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:56:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:56:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> Spike, I think it is juvenile to expect they would NOT offer such a disclaimer. Literally everything in your state has a little label stating it will give you cancer. Why do you not throw away all these things? It?s exactly the same thing. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:44 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan Kenobi, you?re my only hope. > > I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were told it was about 3%. > > Stan county also had its disclaimer: > > > > NUMBER_DIED > Numeric > Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local health departments based on the cause of death reported on death certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths are also counted in ?Positive Cases?. > > > Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those who died OF covid. > > The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and to a large extent what businesses can stay open. > > Here?s where we are: > > EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020: > > California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of indoor operations for the following sectors: > Restaurants > Wineries and Tasting Rooms > Family Entertainment Centers > Movie Theaters > Zoos and Museums > Cardrooms > Fitness Centers > Worship Services > Offices for Non-Critical Sectors > Hair Salons and Barbershops > Malls > All is not lost: > > These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by pick-up. > > Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat house. > > Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and maybes. Businesses are perishing. > > Oh mercy. > > Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the parking lot gawking) please look up your county?s or nation?s covid website and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 15:57:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:57:26 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) In-Reply-To: <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> References: <013301d668df$075ed720$161c8560$@rainier66.com> <98CF389D-7126-4A0D-8016-276EF712482E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks SR! bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 10:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They don?t know either. > > As a Church they used to have a well defined set of beliefs: > > Unitarian: God is one, not made of 3 persons. That is, they did not > believe in the trinity. > > Universalist: That ultimately, all people will be ?saved?. > > Now the church is an odd vestage without and real beliefs beyond ?free > and responsible search for truth and meaning > ? > > For an overview of the ?six sources and seven principles?: > > *We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, > covenant to affirm and promote:* > > - The inherent worth and dignity of every person; > - Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations; > - Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in > our congregations; > - A free and responsible search for truth and meaning; > - The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within > our congregations and in society at large; > - The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all; > - Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are > a part. > > *The living tradition which we share draws from many sources:* > > - Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed > in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness > to the forces which create and uphold life; > - Words and deeds of prophetic people which challenge us to confront > powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the > transforming power of love; > - Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical > and spiritual life; > - Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's > love by loving our neighbors as ourselves; > - Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason > and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and > spirit; > - Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the > sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms > of nature. > > Grateful for the religious pluralism which enriches and ennobles our > faith, we are inspired to deepen our understanding and expand our vision. > As free congregations we enter into this covenant, promising to one another > our mutual trust and support. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:32 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:17 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Unitarian Universalists accept atheists. >> > > Or anybody, huh? I went once and could not figure out what they believed, > if anything. bill w > >> >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 11:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: extropy-chat On Behalf >>> Of Ben >>> Zaiboc via extropy-chat >>> Subject: Re: [ExI] Meaning in life (Was: Who has a vote that counts?) >>> >>> On 01/08/2020 07:52, Someone, not clear who, wrote: >>> >> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of >>> > meaning in life >>> >>> I find that at least misguided, if not obnoxious. It's the sort of thing >>> I'd >>> expect a religious apologist to say, not someone on this list. >>> >>> You can possibly argue about the social networks aspect, and at least >>> that >>> is quantifiable, but the remark about meaning in life is totally >>> unacceptable. It's another form of the specious 'Atheists must be very >>> sad >>> people' meme that the god-squad keep trotting out. >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Zaiboc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> Ben what atheists really need is something to replace what churches once >>> provided back in the days when most people went to one. Bars and >>> nightclubs >>> kinda sorta do that for some people I suppose but it doesn't work well >>> for >>> those of us who don't do chemicals of any kind and aren't big sports >>> people. >>> >>> >>> We have a local chapter of Boring People, but I was thrown out for being >>> interesting. The interesting people won't have me because I am too >>> boring. >>> There is no place for those who are exactly between interesting and >>> boring. >>> Now I have no social contacts. >>> >>> We atheists should be ready to admit the obvious: Religion Inc. does >>> offer >>> some social benefits which are hard to replace. >>> >>> spike >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:04:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:04:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t normally care for. Context makes it patronizing or not. If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be consoled. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >> I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >> >> >That's patronizing. > > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:07:10 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:07:10 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking John out. On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for > excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support > kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, > I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). > > I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are made, > even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything about > Trump) - bottom line. > > bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >> >> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >> that have nothing to do with politics. >> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >> >> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >> >> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >> warning to stop that behavior. >> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >> provide time for tempers to cool down. >> Further action should not be required. >> >> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >> >> ExiMod >> >> >> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:08:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:08:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: next county >.Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. ... >.Stan county also had its disclaimer: NUMBER_DIED Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health department. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of death or at least a contributing factor to the death. >.Oy vey. mercy. Spike I am officially freaking out. I went to two different California state covid dashboards, one run by the University of California and the other by LA Times. Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. Neither state level site included a disclaimer on how covid deaths are counted. Now I am going in search of any California state covid dashboard which has somewhere on that site a comment or disclaimer. It concerns me that uncertainty in data is being lost as it travels up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:07:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:07:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot > confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits > they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 > but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two > county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! > Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by > county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are > assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the > hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment > (as my friend?s business dies of starvation.))))* *Suggestions or comments welcome please.* No I don't think my comments would be welcome because under this new regime some are allowed to make political comments and summer not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:22:09 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:22:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: I agree with Giulio. In any case, I wouldn't support banning anyone right after we instituted a new rule--we can just wait and see what happens. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:19 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. > > On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >> >> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >> about Trump) - bottom line. >> >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>> >>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>> >>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>> >>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>> warning to stop that behavior. >>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>> Further action should not be required. >>> >>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> >>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:23:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:23:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has something like a bill of rights. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone > tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In > the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t > normally care for. > > Context makes it patronizing or not. > > If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very > happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time > if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I > going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be > consoled. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>> >> >> >That's patronizing. >> > > Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I > feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a > statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express > compassion it's said to express contempt. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:23:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 12:23:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:20 PM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. * > Thank you Giulio. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:24:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:24:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Sheesh, now I am catching obsessive compulsiveness. Help me, BillW wan > Kenobi, you?re my only hope. > > > > I went over to the Stanislaus county covid site, and again I see the > same-ish pattern: if you take the number of new covid cases per day, then > look forward from that day a coupla weeks, it looks like about half a > percent on average of the proles who catch that malady perish. We were > told it was about 3%. > > > > Stan county also had its disclaimer: > > > > > > > > NUMBER_DIED > > Numeric > > Cumulative number of COVID-related deaths as reported by local health > department, beginning March 19, 2020. This determination is made by local > health departments based on the cause of death reported on death > certificates. It is expected that, to be counted, COVID is the cause of > death or at least a contributing factor to the death. COVID-related deaths > are also counted in ?Positive Cases?. > > > > > > Oy vey, now we are three for three: the county where I reside and the > closest other two are all counting proles who died WITH covid with those > who died OF covid. > > > > The determination is made by the county coroner. She passes the data on > up to the state, the state makes the decision on when schools can open and > to a large extent what businesses can stay open. > > > > Here?s where we are: > > > > *EFFECTIVE JULY 13, 2020:* > ------------------------------ > > California Department of Public Health ordered the closure of *indoor* operations > for the following sectors: > > - Restaurants > - Wineries and Tasting Rooms > - Family Entertainment Centers > - Movie Theaters > - Zoos and Museums > - Cardrooms > - Fitness Centers > - Worship Services > - Offices for Non-Critical Sectors > - Hair Salons and Barbershops > - Malls > > All is not lost: > > > > These sectors may modify operations to provide services outside or by > pick-up. > > > > Might just go over, hang out in the parking lot outside the local cat > house. > > > > Sheesh, the governor is making biggity big decisions based on guesses and > maybes. Businesses are perishing. > > > > Oh mercy. > > > > Friends if you have nothing better to do (or when you get back from the > parking lot gawking) please look up your county?s or nation?s covid website > and see if they offer this kind of disclaimer. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 16:25:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: But what if he won't stop? That is his history. John is fine with me even if he did call me a liar. He just has to stop the Trump bashing. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking > John out. > > On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >> >> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >> about Trump) - bottom line. >> >> bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>> >>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>> >>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>> >>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>> warning to stop that behavior. >>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>> Further action should not be required. >>> >>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>> >>> ExiMod >>> >>> >>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:52:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:52:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <65B104B5-D027-411D-9706-36CBB43E0BB2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01eb01d669b6$825940a0$870bc1e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, I think it is juvenile to expect they would NOT offer such a disclaimer. Literally everything in your state has a little label stating it will give you cancer. Why do you not throw away all these things? It?s exactly the same thing. SR Ballard SR thanks for pointing that out. I opposed Prop 65 back in the 80s because it was a major victory for the tobacco industry. By that time we knew damn well that tobacco causes cancer. The original version of the legislation was really aimed at identifying stores which sold cigs, to discourage customers from patronizing that store (that word chosen intentionally because of its double meaning (one good the other bad ( {8^D ))) The tobacco industry sued to make the legislation include what it actually says: the building contains chemicals which might be harmful from the standpoint of cancer, reproductive harm, developmental defects for instance. OK then. That gets alcohol (hey, fetal alcohol syndrome) that gets coffee (not sure why exactly but it does) it gets: * Additives or ingredients in pesticides * Common household products * Drugs, food, or dyes * Solvents * Chemicals in manufacturing or construction * Byproducts of chemical processes. OK, well if that warning sign is on every building, including the local daycare (it is) then what does it mean? That?s right, not a thing, not one damn thing. If everything causes cancer, then nothing does. That Prop 65 sign is on every public building in California. Find me one please which does not have it, and I will show you one where some yahoo stole theirs. Solvents they say. Water is a solvent (a very good one (sheesh.))) If everything causes cancer, then nothing does. If everything is cultural appropriation, then nothing is. If all cops are bastards, then none of them are. If everyone is a criminal, then no one is. Its kills an argument to overgeneralize it. Counties very clearly tell us they are counting covid deaths broadly, then handing the numbers up to the state, where the site does not tell us these counts are interpreted broadly. Then the governors are making life or death decisions based on data of unknown quality. Please advise. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 16:58:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:58:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <020401d669b7$5f217c50$1d6474f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Hmmm, OK then. Decisions are being made based on data we cannot confirm, listed and graphed as covid deaths, when the fine print admits they might be double-counted, and that it includes people who had covid-19 but died of something else. Think about that. I have seen exactly two county websites and both have that disclaimer on their charts. SHEESH! Conclusion: decisions on the life or death of a business are being made by county health departments based on data of unknown quality (but we are assured it does not imply wrongdoing on the part of the facility (the hospital or nursing home (oy vey, thanks a bunch for that helpful comment (as my friend?s business dies of starvation.)))) Suggestions or comments welcome please. >?No I don't think my comments would be welcome because under this new regime some are allowed to make political comments and summer not. John K Clark John please study that paragraph you quoted and show anything political please? I can?t find it. It is about data, county health departments offering data caveats then these somehow evaporating on the way up to the state, where big decisions are being made, which determine if businesses live or die. I see nothing political at all there. Are you claiming this data cannot be handled without political considerations? I think it can: the state level sites must include the data caveats freely offered by their own sources, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 17:07:28 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:07:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <018001d669b0$521e0cf0$f65a26d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now I am going in search of any California state covid dashboard which has > somewhere on that site a comment or disclaimer. > > > > It concerns me that uncertainty in data is being lost as it travels up. > So long as you're searching anyway, could you see if it's the same in other states? (At least, those which wouldn't pretend to be certain when they're not.) My hunch is, it's a basic problem with measurement - at least as done in the US - in which case this is the best data they have, less-than-perfect though it is. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 3 17:20:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:20:52 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e156c8d-ce30-a87f-35fb-01af5452d3d9@zaiboc.net> On 03/08/2020 12:17, John K Clark mentioned: > .. the near universal appeal of music ... This is a question that has puzzled me sorely for a long, long time. Why are we the only animals that seem to have a sense of rhythm? Many animals make noises of various kinds, sometimes even rhythmic sounds, but you never see a group of animals getting into a groove the way humans do. I've never seen a dog tapping its paw or nodding along to a piece of music, and even birds that seem to be doing this are oddities (and I suspect they're not really doing this at all, but just mimicking humans), and on their own. There's no other species that has a musical sense, that I know about. The odd thing is, I can't see any advantage that it confers, and even if it is a spandrel, as John suggests, what other advantageous trait could it be a result of? I can't think of anything. So where did it come from? Even other primates don't seem to have anything approaching it. Are there any documented instances of a bunch of chimps banging sticks on trees in a coordinated (and infectious) way, for instance? Anything like that? Even co-ordinated dancing? I've not heard of any. Any ideas? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Aug 3 17:32:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:32:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/08/2020 17:07, Giulio Prisco wrote: > John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find > political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support > kicking John out. That's something I can entirely agree with Giulio about! -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 17:37:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 10:37:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around half a percent. BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their failure. If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were telling the truth all along. Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy commentary. This is all about data. BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I got sick. Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 17:50:29 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:50:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: John is an adult, he knows how to follow the rules. Plus he is left-wing (not an insult, I am too) so he understands governance. What if he won't stop? Well that's what the rules are for as delineated in this post. I don't see the point in prophecizing and talking about the past. The rules have been established. What you're saying is literally the point of this thread. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > But what if he won't stop? That is his history. John is fine with me > even if he did call me a liar. He just has to stop the Trump bashing. > bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:20 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> John has a history of intelligent and interesting posts. I don?t find >> political posts (by anyone) interesting, but I would NOT support kicking >> John out. >> >> On 2020. Aug 3., Mon at 17:15, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for >>> excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support >>> kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, >>> I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). >>> >>> I don't think any past members will come back if political posts are >>> made, even if they are not particularly inflammatory (id est, anything >>> about Trump) - bottom line. >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 8:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very >>>> occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. >>>> >>>> The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) >>>> politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is >>>> futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads >>>> that have nothing to do with politics. >>>> There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where >>>> people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be >>>> no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy >>>> arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us >>>> are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi >>>> list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. >>>> >>>> Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. >>>> >>>> I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. >>>> Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one >>>> warning to stop that behavior. >>>> Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to >>>> provide time for tempers to cool down. >>>> Further action should not be required. >>>> >>>> Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! >>>> >>>> ExiMod >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:11:55 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:11:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we > have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the > ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to > say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians > Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, > people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in > the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the > Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for > principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has > something like a bill of rights. bill w > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >> normally care for. >> >> Context makes it patronizing or not. >> >> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very >> happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time >> if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I >> going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be >> consoled. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>> >>> >>> >That's patronizing. >>> >> >> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >> compassion it's said to express contempt. >> >> John K Clark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:16:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:16:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some others. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you > for these data? bill w > > > > Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being > collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and > uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the > caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky > data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses > live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. > > > > I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the > site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly > overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge > disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and > the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid > deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around > half a percent. > > > > BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death > decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can > see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a > percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen > before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their > failure. > > > > If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that > comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being > counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the > world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected > cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data > wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were > telling the truth all along. > > > > Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the > mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. > > > > Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy > commentary. This is all about data. > > > > BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions > based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t > tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it > wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I > wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close > extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I > got sick. > > > > Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:20:08 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:20:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A for > Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. > This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. > > Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the > singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown > aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be > seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and > antiquated viewpoint. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >> something like a bill of rights. bill w >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>> normally care for. >>> >>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>> >>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>> to be consoled. >>> >>> SR Ballard >>> >>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>> >>>> >>>> >That's patronizing. >>>> >>> >>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >>> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:34:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:34:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate false > correlation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:42:34 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:42:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 6:11 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> Being religious is such a widespread psychological trait that (in >> terms of evolution) it must have been selected at sometime in our past.* > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage I know of no other way for the trait of being susceptible to religion to come about except evolutionary selection. If you can think of any other way we got this trait, I would be very interested. > but I've never found them to be very convincing; I agree. But don't forget the trait may be a side effect of something that was under selection. The example I often use is the trait(s) that lead to drug addiction. I don't think anyone can make a cast for that trait to have been selected. The reward pathways that opiates activate are part of the human motivation system which was/is under selection. < the same thing could be said for arguments to explain the > near universal appeal of music, Music is not hard to explain. It seems to be a side effect of speaking and bilateral symmetry of the brain. > the most abstract of all the arts. It could > be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of any > sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits that > do confirm an advantage. That's what I think, and I strongly suspect that the trait comes from the same selection that gave us the psychological mechanism for wars. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 18:53:14 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion Message-ID: Giulio Prisco wrote: > Well, religion can eliminate or reduce the fear of death, and this helps performing fearlessly in battle. That may be a factor. I suspect that a more important factor is a belief that the other tribe is made up of such vile beings that the warrior goes berserk. This might also apply. Memeoid ? a neologism for people who have been taken over by a meme to the extent that their own survival becomes inconsequential. Examples include kamikazes, suicide bombers and cult members who commit mass suicide. The term was apparently coined by H. Keith Henson in "Memes, L5 and the Religion of the Space Colonies," L5 News, September 1985 pp. 5?8,[44] and referenced in the expanded second edition of Richard Dawkins' book The Selfish Gene (p. 330). Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:09:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:09:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: You are right, of course. How can it be done? Leaving the thing mostly intact but eliminating the extremes? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A far better bet is when the geneticists manage to eliminate >> false correlation >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:28:03 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:28:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92B2F40D-686C-4BD7-AF10-AD9D4947D91D@gmail.com> Some things really are about emotional feeling. Comforting someone isn?t a vacuous thing. You must everyone discount the role of emotions? If emotions didn?t matter, mild depression wouldn?t matter. SR Ballard > On Aug 3, 2020, at 11:23 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has something like a bill of rights. bill w > >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t normally care for. >> >> Context makes it patronizing or not. >> >> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want to be consoled. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>>> >> I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them. >>>> >>>> >That's patronizing. >>> >>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express compassion it's said to express contempt. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Mon Aug 3 19:41:49 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:41:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I disagree with the premise, Ben. Concluding that other species don't have music (or specifically a sense of rhythm as you said) just because we have not observed them tapping their feet (some of them don't have feet) seems awfully anthropocentric to me. I would not be surprised if we eventually discover that all cetaceans and certain songbirds and tropical avians do have music because they have such an impressive amount of firmware and wetware for audio signal processing. If on no other grounds than that beings above a certain threshold of complexity seem to have a tendency to find "off label" uses for their capabilities. (Hence why I cited Keith's post also.) Felids have an impressive audio range (coming and going), canids even more so. For all we know, purring is cat music. Any blind kitten can distinguish its mother's purr from a lot of background. How about howling? C'mon! I would expect that communicating across great distances (relative to body length) or building *some* kind of community confers powerful advantage and would be selected for. K3 PS. My ancient lnyx-point Siamese perks up whenever she hears "Jammin'" (it's what was playing on the car radio when I brought her home from the pound 16-ish years ago), hence her name Marlie. On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 18:20:52 +0100, Ben Zaiboc wrote, and Keith Henson posted separately: > Why are we the only animals that seem to have a sense of rhythm? Many > animals make noises of various kinds, sometimes even rhythmic sounds, > but you never see a group of animals getting into a groove the way > humans do. > > I've never seen a dog tapping its paw or nodding along to a piece of > music, and even birds that seem to be doing this are oddities (and I > suspect they're not really doing this at all, but just mimicking > humans), and on their own. There's no other species that has a musical > sense, that I know about. The odd thing is, I can't see any advantage > that it confers, and even if it is a spandrel, as John suggests, what > other advantageous trait could it be a result of? I can't think of > anything. So where did it come from? Even other primates don't seem to > have anything approaching it. Are there any documented instances of a > bunch of chimps banging sticks on trees in a coordinated (and > infectious) way, for instance? Anything like that? Even co-ordinated > dancing? I've not heard of any. > > Any ideas? and > Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 11:42:34 -0700 > From: Keith Henson > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [ExI] (no subject) [snip] > I know of no other way for the trait of being susceptible to religion > to come about except evolutionary selection. If you can think of any > other way we got this trait, I would be very interested. [snip] > Music is not hard to explain. It seems to be a side effect of > speaking and bilateral symmetry of the brain. > >> the most abstract of all the arts. It could >> be that neither confers an advantage to individuals or to groups of >> any >> sort, they could be evolutionary spandrels, byproducts of other traits >> that >> do confirm an advantage. > > That's what I think, and I strongly suspect that the trait comes from > the same selection that gave us the psychological mechanism for wars. > > Keith From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:43:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:43:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned a philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science as we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and fake heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to theism, as science reveals the truth. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the > academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will > > Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is > when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false > correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >> >> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >> antiquated viewpoint. >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>>> normally care for. >>>> >>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>> >>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>> to be consoled. >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I think >>>>>> they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says "I >>>> feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 19:51:03 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:51:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you're stretching the generally agreed upon definition of theism if you don't include god/gods in the definition. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned a > philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science as > we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and fake > heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to > theism, as science reveals the truth. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and the >> academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will >> >> Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet is >> when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and false >> correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >>> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >>> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >>> >>> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >>> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >>> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >>> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >>> antiquated viewpoint. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and someone >>>>> tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as patronizing. In >>>>> the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, which I don?t >>>>> normally care for. >>>>> >>>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>>> >>>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>>> to be consoled. >>>>> >>>>> SR Ballard >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >>>>>>> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says >>>>> "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:00:24 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:00:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > John is fine with me even if he did call me a liar Huh? When did I do that? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:01:11 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: I didn't say anything about god though. Theism implies belief in a god--I am just talking about a philosophical/theological viewpoint, not a religion. Religions have bells and whistles, unlike science, which discards anything that is not the truth. I happen to believe that it is true that a god type entity exists, so I think science and theism will approach and are approaching one another. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:54 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think you're stretching the generally agreed upon definition of theism > if you don't include god/gods in the definition. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:49 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I'm not talking about religion. I didn't mention religion. I mentioned >> a philosophical viewpoint, theism, which will grow in accord with science >> as we discover more about our reality. All the saints and miracles and >> fake heavens and hells can shove it for all I care. Science is germane to >> theism, as science reveals the truth. >> >> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:25 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be seen, by scientists and >>> the academic community, as a ridiculous and antiquated viewpoint. will >>> >>> Not unless they change the epistemology of science. A far better bet >>> is when the geneticists manage to eliminate superstitious behavior and >>> false correlation, religion as we know it will entirely disappear. bill w >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:14 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I understand what Giulio means. I think there is a strain in modern A >>>> for Atheism that sort of acts like we have the whole universe figured out. >>>> This lack of mystery or wonder then leads to ennui. >>>> >>>> Theism and agnosticism are approaching one another, especially with the >>>> singularity and simulation arguments, and as we learn more about unknown >>>> aspects of the universe. At some point, in my opinion, atheism will be >>>> seen, by scientists and the academic community, as a ridiculous and >>>> antiquated viewpoint. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:48 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Consoled? They want advice of the most serious kind. That is what we >>>>> have been discussing: just what principles do we have that supplant the >>>>> ones we originally got (most of us) from religion. What are you going to >>>>> say to them? The secular humanists are a good start as are the extropians >>>>> Spike mentioned. And you can go a long way with the Golden Rule (no, >>>>> people, don't tell me the exceptions we all know about). Also, I see in >>>>> the news a movement trying to get a monument to the Bill of Rights on the >>>>> Mall in D.C. Support that if you can. Bill of R is a good start for >>>>> principles,mostly of the rationalist kind. I also think the UN has >>>>> something like a bill of rights. bill w >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> When my grandpa dies, considering my uncle died last week, and >>>>>> someone tells me, ?I feel so sorry for you.? I wouldn?t see that as >>>>>> patronizing. In the beforetimes it would probably be accompanied by a hug, >>>>>> which I don?t normally care for. >>>>>> >>>>>> Context makes it patronizing or not. >>>>>> >>>>>> If someone comes to you and says something like, ?I?m an athiest and >>>>>> very happy with my life?, then of course it is patronizing. But at the same >>>>>> time if someone says something like, ?I don?t believe in God anymore, how >>>>>> am I going to live my life?? Well, that?s different and they probably want >>>>>> to be consoled. >>>>>> >>>>>> SR Ballard >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 3, 2020, at 6:48 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 7:19 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> *I didn?t say anything negative about atheists. I said that I >>>>>>>> think they are sad, and therefore I feel sorry for them.* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >That's patronizing. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regardless of the subject it's ALWAYS patronizing when somebody says >>>>>> "I feel so sorry for you", it's hypocritical too because hearing such a >>>>>> statement never makes anybody feel better, and it isn't said to express >>>>>> compassion it's said to express contempt. >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:04:53 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:04:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> Actually, I recall reading about the ability of other animals to recognize melodies as units (especially when shifted in register and timbre). This is testable, and it seems like cats, dogs, other apes, and many species of birds lack this ability. If memory serves, parrots seem to have this ability too. (One theory behind this is it helps with communication since humans vary much in size and have complex vocal patterns. You saying a common word sounds different than someone who is bigger or smaller or older or younger. Of course, the problem here would be size ranges in other animals with vocal abilities seems not always to be narrow.) By the way, not sure why no one brought up wolves which tend to howl in unison and in response. (Dogs sometimes do that too. A few local dogs howl along when emergency service trucks go by with their alarms blaring.;) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Aug 3, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?I disagree with the premise, Ben. Concluding that other species don't have music (or specifically a sense of rhythm as you said) just because we have not observed them tapping their feet (some of them don't have feet) seems awfully anthropocentric to me. > > I would not be surprised if we eventually discover that all cetaceans and certain songbirds and tropical avians do have music because they have such an impressive amount of firmware and wetware for audio signal processing. If on no other grounds than that beings above a certain threshold of complexity seem to have a tendency to find "off label" uses for their capabilities. (Hence why I cited Keith's post also.) Felids have an impressive audio range (coming and going), canids even more so. For all we know, purring is cat music. Any blind kitten can distinguish its mother's purr from a lot of background. How about howling? C'mon! > > I would expect that communicating across great distances (relative to body length) or building *some* kind of community confers powerful advantage and would be selected for. > > K3 > > PS. My ancient lnyx-point Siamese perks up whenever she hears "Jammin'" (it's what was playing on the car radio when I brought her home from the pound 16-ish years ago), hence her name Marlie. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odellhuff2 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:05:15 2020 From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell Huff) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:05:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > Further action should not be required. > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > ExiMod > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 20:07:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:07:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some others. bill w No worries BillW, this is a particular interest to me. Those two you named, White House and CDC are irrelevant to the decisions that matter to me: the decisions made in Sacramento are the ones that impact me directly. We are facing a huge revolution in something I am closely connected to: our local public school. The Super just told us yesterday that the shutdown study from home paradigm will apply to the entire first semester, so there will be no return to the classroom before Jingle Bells. Sounds like for the second semester students will have a choice between learn at home and part time classroom. Regarding use of my time, my study of the quality of the covid dataset is trivial compared to what I will likely soon be investing in the other activities impacted by that data. To do this most effectively I need a pretty good picture of the virus-scape. I now don?t feel I have one. Now we have open calls for public school parents and volunteers to help at-risk students in particular but they will also accept volunteers to help the most promising students. This becomes even more interesting if what I am hearing is true (not saying that it is (and it sounds dubious or exaggerated)): the teachers? union says its members will refuse to return to the classroom unless yakkity yak and bla bla, with a bunch of stuff the school board and the county cannot do for them. It includes defunding police, expanded public this and that, sheesh, a pile of stuff the Super will hafta tell them to take to the governor who will also tell them no, because he doesn?t have the budget for any of it. So what if they carry out their threat and a bunch of them refuse to come to school? For the first time, we are in a position to just adios amigo about half of them. We can come up with work-arounds. A Zoom conference works just as well with 100 students as it does with 30. spike On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you for these data? bill w Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around half a percent. BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their failure. If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were telling the truth all along. Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy commentary. This is all about data. BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I got sick. Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 20:49:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:49:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Odell! I might be wrong, but thought it was more than once. Welcome back. Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. How about R U Sirius? Samantha Adkins? spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Odell Huff via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 3, 2020 1:05 PM To: ExiMod ; ExI chat list Cc: Odell Huff Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi List Supervision I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat > wrote: Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads that have nothing to do with politics. There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one warning to stop that behavior. Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to provide time for tempers to cool down. Further action should not be required. Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! ExiMod Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:58:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:58:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Defunding the police? Aren't they a bit off topic? I guess the theory is that as long as you are asking for something, why not ask for the Moon? bill w On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 3:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > Spike, I certainly did not mean to trivialize your interest in the data. > I do have a concern that your time will be wasted. Who is going to listen > to you? These things are way over our heads: White House, CDC, some > others. > > > > bill w > > > > > > No worries BillW, this is a particular interest to me. Those two you > named, White House and CDC are irrelevant to the decisions that matter to > me: the decisions made in Sacramento are the ones that impact me directly. > > > > We are facing a huge revolution in something I am closely connected to: > our local public school. The Super just told us yesterday that the > shutdown study from home paradigm will apply to the entire first semester, > so there will be no return to the classroom before Jingle Bells. Sounds > like for the second semester students will have a choice between learn at > home and part time classroom. > > > > Regarding use of my time, my study of the quality of the covid dataset is > trivial compared to what I will likely soon be investing in the other > activities impacted by that data. To do this most effectively I need a > pretty good picture of the virus-scape. I now don?t feel I have one. > > > > Now we have open calls for public school parents and volunteers to help > at-risk students in particular but they will also accept volunteers to help > the most promising students. This becomes even more interesting if what I > am hearing is true (not saying that it is (and it sounds dubious or > exaggerated)): the teachers? union says its members will refuse to return > to the classroom unless yakkity yak and bla bla, with a bunch of stuff the > school board and the county cannot do for them. It includes defunding > police, expanded public this and that, sheesh, a pile of stuff the Super > will hafta tell them to take to the governor who will also tell them no, > because he doesn?t have the budget for any of it. > > > > So what if they carry out their threat and a bunch of them refuse to come > to school? For the first time, we are in a position to just adios amigo > about half of them. We can come up with work-arounds. A Zoom conference > works just as well with 100 students as it does with 30. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 12:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > >?Spike, is this just a little hobby, or are there serious uses to you > for these data? bill w > > > > Little hobby? Indeed sir? We are seeing a case where junky data is being > collected, where their own sites clearly tell us the data is junky and > uncertain, the data is being handed up to state level sites where the > caveats have disappeared, then the states make decisions based on junky > data whether children can go to school next week and whether businesses > live or die. This isn?t some little hobby. This is alarming as hell. > > > > I see a clear mechanism whereby covid deaths can be overcounted (by the > site?s clear admission), then I compare new cases per day to the (possibly > overcounted) covid death rate a coupla weeks later and notice a huge > disconnect between what we are told is the mortality rate advertised and > the one we get by dividing the number of cases the sites are calling covid > deaths by the number of covid new cases and I am getting numbers around > half a percent. > > > > BillW, this is not a hobby, nor is it political. Big life and death > decisions are being made on the basis of junky data which any amateur can > see contains a huge anomaly: the covid death rate looks like around half a > percent, which isn?t all that different from other flus we have seen > before, and yet this time we are closing businesses resulting in their > failure. > > > > If nothing else this is vindicating Belgium. They kept telling us that > comparing covid numbers by nation is meaningless because they were being > counted differently. Belgium looks like the hardest-hit nation in the > world, or in the top 3. But kept telling us they were counting suspected > cases, people who died with covid as having died of covid, that their data > wasn?t directly comparable to other countries. Now I suspect they were > telling the truth all along. > > > > Big decisions are being made based on junky data with a clear anomaly (the > mortality rate) and the caveats on the data disappear as it rises. > > > > Note there is no political content anywhere in any of that breezy > commentary. This is all about data. > > > > BillW, ja, I do have a serious use for this data, for I too make decisions > based on it. I mighta caught covid back in December but I still haven?t > tested because I don?t want to go anywhere near that hospital in case it > wasn?t that. MIghta been a different viral pneumonia, in which case I > wouldn?t be immune from what I might catch at the hospital. I had a close > extended contact with someone who had recently returned from China when I > got sick. > > > > Meanwhile? businesses are dying. If businesses die, we die. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From odellhuff2 at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 20:58:40 2020 From: odellhuff2 at gmail.com (Odell Huff) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 13:58:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hi Spike, thank you--I haven't been in touch with Morrow for like two decades, I see he's a professor. I think my friend Tom Palmer, who should be on this list, is in touch with him. I don't think I know Sirius or Adkins, I'm sorry. Best, Odell On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM wrote: > Odell! > > > > I might be wrong, but thought it was more than once. Welcome back. > > > > Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. How about R U Sirius? Samantha > Adkins? > > > > spike > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Odell Huff via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Monday, August 3, 2020 1:05 PM > *To:* ExiMod ; ExI chat list < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > *Cc:* Odell Huff > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi List Supervision > > > > I have been lurking on this list I think since the beginning, early 90s > when I met with Max More at EI? I worked with Tom Morrow. I may have > contributed something here once. My hope is that only something rising to > the level of active trolling would merit intervention. Inflammatory speech > never inflames me, but tells me a lot about who you are. > > > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:28 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Spike has assured me that looking after the Exi list requires only very > occasional intervention and I hope to continue on that well-trodden path. > > > > The main problem I see at present is that our current national (USA) > politics has gone crazy. Arguments about crazy politics on the Exi list is > futile and upsets many list members. This upset spreads into other threads > that have nothing to do with politics. > > There is a huge selection of popular channels on social media where people > enjoy arguments about today's political scandals. So there should be no > problem with the small number of Exi list members avoiding rowdy arguments > here about the many failings of current politicians. All of us are very > well aware of the current divisive political problems and the Exi list > intends to provide a welcome break from the continual political stress. > > > > Please Note: This is not just a suggestion. > > > > I don't have time to moderate individual posts to the Exi list. > > Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one > warning to stop that behavior. > > Ignoring the warning will result in a one week ban from the Exi list to > provide time for tempers to cool down. > > Further action should not be required. > > > > Let's try and be optimistic and look to a brighter future! > > > > ExiMod > > > > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 3 21:19:03 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:19:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> <031801d669d7$948f4230$bdadc690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-03 13:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Do tell me Tom Morrow is alive and well. aka Tom W Bell? I see mention of his activities from time to time. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 3 21:26:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:26:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <00f601d669a1$3542a6e0$9fc7f4a0$@rainier66.com> <015f01d669ac$eb9ec2b0$c2dc4810$@rainier66.com> <023b01d669bc$baab6090$300221b0$@rainier66.com> <02c301d669d1$c89f6920$59de3b60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <034501d669dc$b7b0b0a0$271211e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Defunding the police? Aren't they a bit off topic? I guess the theory is that as long as you are asking for something, why not ask for the Moon? bill w I interpreted it as sacrificial bargaining chips, knowing that kind of stuff will be dismissed. What the teachers really want is hazard pay, and I see their point. They are also being asked to redo their curriculum to fit the current crises. At the elementary and secondary levels, many teachers derive most of their curriculum in the first two or three years with some experimentation, then they run mostly on autopilot for next two or three decades, with only minor tweaks. Now? they must redesign everything. So sure, that?s a big job and sure, there are new risks of catching WuFlu from students, particularly the grimey little ones if they carry it. Last school year we transitioned to online learning, but the classes were already established, relationships between students and teachers firm. Now? none of that applies. We had a hell of a time with disengaged students. Now with new teachers and new everything, that problem is likely to be worse. BillW, it is important that we understand the virus-scape. If the data is junky at the collection site, the next level can only get junkier as the junky data gets handed up and combined. The counties admit the uncertainty down near the ground, then the state doesn?t offer the same caveats at the decision level. That same junky data is handed up yet again, where the Johns Hopkins site and others collect 50 junky datasets and combine them into a still-junkier set, without caveats anywhere. That last step doesn?t bother me as much because decisions aren?t made up there, they are made at the state and (to some extent) the county levels. This is all good news in a way. All this time, and I am just now realizing that covid cases could have been systematically undercounted (I was sick as hell, still haven?t tested) but that covid deaths could have been systematically overcounted. This suggests this particular flu isn?t as dangerous as we have been led to believe. I might have had covid. If so, I could be caught gawking like a prairie chicken in the parking lot in front of the local house of harlotry, die of embarrassment, the county coroner, not knowing the circumstances of my passing, finds the antibodies, records that cause on my death certificate (which under those particular circumstances is perhaps a good thing) the misunderstanding inflates the statistics even more. What?s worse: I get cryonics, nanotech, uploading, I reanimate, recall the circumstances that led to my untimely demise back when I was still meat, die again for same reason, double tragedy. We need to understand how reliable or otherwise is this dataset, and if we still don?t know, then we need to admit we still don?t know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 3 21:28:13 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 14:28:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music and (no subject) In-Reply-To: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> References: <540EE956-84D3-4572-B98B-45376568B15B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51de42ba-2ff1-44f1-5ec1-f6cd93835841@pobox.com> I read somewhere in the past year that someone had composed music for smaller mammals, the idea being that they probably don't appreciate our music because its rhythm is made for our slower heartbeat, among other differences. I do not remember whether the intended audience responded. On 2020-8-03 13:04, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > By the way, not sure why no one brought up wolves which tend to howl in > unison and in response. (Dogs sometimes do that too. A few local dogs > howl along when emergency service trucks go by with their alarms blaring.;) One time many years ago, I was in my room singing along with Gordon Lightfoot, "Song for a Winter Night" which ends with "oo, oo, oo, oo" -- such a simple sound that, because I was not exactly on pitch, the beats were very evident. A cat was in the room, and she howled! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 04:40:25 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:40:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > I am officially freaking out. I went to two different California state covid dashboards, one run by the University of California and the other by LA Times. Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. I don't understand why you are concerned. Unless you think the data all over the world is manipulated, what difference does miscounting make in how you or other people live? If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 05:01:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2020 22:01:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ... Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. >...If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith _______________________________________________ Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no longer profitable. There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is difficult to estimate. If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did makes sense. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 08:56:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 04:56:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> If the mortality rate for covid really is about half apercent, then > covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole > shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, * Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 4 10:44:08 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:44:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> Various people responded, mostly not mentioning rhythms. This is why I specifically mentioned a sense of rhythm. I appreciate that our senses are narrow, so there may be animals that do have a sense of rhythm but we can't see it. The examples given all have easy answers that have nothing to do with a musical sense (rhythm). ?Anton Sherwood wrote: > I read somewhere in the past year that someone had composed music for > smaller mammals, the idea being that they probably don't appreciate > our music because its rhythm is made for our slower heartbeat, among > other differences.? I do not remember whether the intended audience > responded. Now that would be interesting. But a small mammal responding by squeaking, or similar, would only prove that they had heard the noises and perhaps were alarmed or surprised by them, or recognised them, etc., not that they had a musical sense. My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. Mentioning other animals is just by contrast. Speculation aside, we have no evidence that any other animal has a musical sense. -- Ben Zaiboc From rahmans at me.com Tue Aug 4 10:57:20 2020 From: rahmans at me.com (Omar Rahman) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:57:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2C02BF-C90A-46CF-B97D-FA5536FAD29F@me.com> > Spike wrote: > > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a > percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then > the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and > consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every > flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no > longer profitable. > > There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains > of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal > destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is > difficult to estimate. > > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in > response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did > makes sense. Spike, Data from the CDC on flu shows a range of 12000 deaths to 61000 deaths per year in this data since 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html (Go down to Figure 2) Seeing as covid-19 is at 150000+ and if we do a naive projection of 300000 for the full year, we can conclude that covid-19 is roughly 5x worse than a bad flu year. That?s as things stand however, because many epidemiologists have projected from the beginning that the ?second wave? is going to be the worst part. As to death rates: ROME (AP) - Antibody testing in Italy indicates that nearly 1.5 million people, or about 2.5% of the population, have had the coronavirus. But officials said Monday that huge geographic variations in the results confirmed a nationwide lockdown was ?absolutely crucial? to preventing the country?s south from getting slammed as badly as its north. Currently, about 35k deaths and approx. 1500k infections, that works out to 2.3%. Again, this is with the caveat that we haven?t had the ?second wave? yet, and that the entirety of Italy was not overwhelmed at once, just the northern areas. If a health care system gets overwhelmed and modern medical care isn?t available it seems very safe to assume that a higher percentage will perish. Also, as the US health care system?s default position is overwhelmed (ie. it does not cover all citizens/residents), it is reasonable to expect US death rates to be higher. As to shutting down the economy, as I?ve said before (but in other words): money supply is only limited by your trust in that supply (This is true of all types of money: metals, paper, algorithm) The productive parts of the economy, (farming, factories, distribution), are all functioning at ?decent? levels. Subsidies should be given to those employed in sectors that are likely to increase disease spread (lots of service sectors, education, etc.). This sort of behavior will increase your trust in the system and increase the value of that money. *DONS A TINFOIL HAT* Of course, reducing trust in the system has reduced the value (exchange rate) of American money which makes American exports more attractive. Also, the prospect of losing your house might force truly desperate workers to take jobs at reduced wages despite the increased risk of illness/death. Also, the prospect of losing your health care, which is tied to your job, might force desperate workers back out into unsafe working conditions at reduced wages. *REMOVES A TINFOIL HAT* But now that I have my tinfoil hat off I can?t think of single person or political group that would want to enrich themselves during a pandemic. Inconceivable! It?s not as if lawmakers would just let assistance programs expire and go home for the weekend. With best wishes (especially for your health), Omar Rahman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 11:59:20 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 07:59:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 5:00 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator > ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. > Do not talk about mystery man moderator Rowdy goats will be removed from the pen > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 12:10:01 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:10:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> References: <962a61e9-1a08-da5c-4982-0d99d1be8cf4@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 6:46 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in > the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. > > Mentioning other animals is just by contrast. Speculation aside, we have > no evidence that any other animal has a musical sense. > What evidence do you need? Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence, or does a nonhuman have to compose original music that you recognize as rhythmically pleasing? I guess my question is about how human self-centered awareness is overcome to even recognize nonhuman cognition, including less tangible ability like musical sense. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 13:13:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 06:13:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:03 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > If the mortality rate for covid really is about half apercent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, Perhaps I misunderstood but I thought our new mystery man moderator ordered us not to make political or controversial statements. John K Clark John everything isn?t politics. The shutdown wasn?t any particular party or political leader. I am not promoting any philosophy or candidate or nation or state or medical expert. I am seeing a means of systematically undercounting covid cases (from having never been tested) along with a means of systematically overcounting covid deaths (by including deaths that did not necessarily die of covid (says it right there on the county websites (but not on the state level site it feeds (nor on the national level sites by the CDC (nor on the world level statistics compiled by Johns Hopkins.)))))) Everything isn?t politics. This isn?t politics. This is science. We mighta undercounted cases and overcounted deaths. The impacted number is the mortality rate in percent. But since you and I are old enough to remember when AIDS started up, consider how that unfolded. A new disease came along and suddenly, for the first time I recall, it was all about politics rather than science. I had always thought of smart doctors such as Jonas Salk figuring out what was going wrong and how to fix it. But somehow it was all about politics that time. This seems to be a replay of that. But politics never found an answer. Nearly every country in the world shut down or partially shut down their economies for covid. But if we systematically calculated a mortality rate incorrectly and this is another swine flu, another bird flu, another Spanish flu, another MERSA, then the shutdown was a huge mistake everywhere. Businesses die everywhere. If businesses die, we die. Everything is not political. This time it really is science. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 13:50:29 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:50:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *>Everything is not political.* Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 15:23:04 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:23:04 -0600 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: When a government program retains massive funding and universal support despite it being literally impossible for it to fulfill its stated objectives, assume that the stated objectives are a lie and that it is fulfilling its /actual/ objectives perfectly. The actual objective of those state COVID dashboards is /not/ to empower a vast army of amateur citizen epidemiologists. That would be absurd and counterproductive. The state already has all the epidemiology expertise it needs on tap. The /actual/ objective of thos COVID dashboards is to make us afraid. And they are working perfectly for the overwhelming majority of the population. No problems here. Move along, citizen.. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 7:52 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *>Everything is not political.* > > > Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to > systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in > the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be > accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your > arguments must remain unchallenged. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 15:29:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 08:29:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 6:50 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >Everything is not political. Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. John K Clark OK cool no worries John, we understand. A toxic environment developed here over the past few yrs, many valued contributors left. But we can fix it. This is long, but please at least skim it, for I could use the advice. Here?s why I am obsessing about all this. I was chosen as a member of a board of advisors for the local public schools. We have members on that board who span the traditional spectrum and those who are not on it at all: Indians on H1B visas who plan to stay only long enough to learn how to build electric cars, after which they will go back to India and China and build them there for instance, and at least one I think is an illegal immigrant but none of that matters because this is a free state with only one mainstream party. The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. I come from an oddball case: I am working with advanced students as a volunteer (we volunteers get to choose what we volunteer to do (it?s one of the privileges of not accepting a paycheck (I have a lot more to offer high school level elite students than I do to struggling or disengaged or younger (I have no idea how to help those.))))) My oddball case: my son and his cadre have done GREAT under distance learning. The teachers mostly got off the runway and they took right off, they soar with eagles. OK then. We are not directors, but we are advisors. The state wants us to enforce social distancing, even if it means double shifting students. Problem: this particular high school is so crowded, we could double-shift and still not make the necessary 6 ft or 2 meter distancing. Not only that? well, we have all been to high school. Regardless of the rules, sometimes in high school the social distance goes to zero. Hell, for some students it even goes? um? negative. And sinusoidal but I digress. They won?t necessarily follow the rules. We didn?t either. We could cut the student body in half and still not make the county and state guidelines for this particular high school. if we fail they could unapologetically kick us all off the campus adios amigos, Which creates a whole nuther bunch of headaches. However? I also know that my case is an oddball: after a survey (and similar results from others doing the same) we confidently (if disappointedly) conclude that distance learning has been generally a failure for most students, and is inadequate even for average students. We think it is completely inadequate for younger students. So? None of this has anything to do with traditional politics from what I can see, so I would think it would be allowed on ExI. I am not criticizing anyone or promoting anyone. If I were to promote anyone, it would be the non-politician Sal Khan (it is not too lake to draft that guy (drag him kicking and screaming to Washington to make him be our leader (but that would be a tragic waste of a perfectly good Sal Khan (and we have only one of him.)))) I am not advocating for any particular party or philosophy, only reporting what I see: distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom disengaged entirely. The baseline plan which starts in 9 days: we will have all mainstream students distance learning at first, probably the first semester. The students identified as struggling, the disengaged, language challenged, economically challenged, homeless, the illegal immigrants, the learning disabled, juvenile delinquents on probation for major violent felonies etc will be on campus starting 13 August as will some of the (bravest) teachers. We rigged up some cameras which follow motion, so they can broadcast lectures the way baseball contests are being done: to mostly empty classrooms (I don?t know if students will be offered the opportunity to pay 100 bucks to make cardboard likenesses of themselves to place in a chair in the mostly empty classrooms.) John that?s where I am: trying to figure out if we have made some kind of systematic error in how covid numbers were counted. It might be there was some error but it wasn?t huge. It could be that over time, more and more people will test and find they had covid and recovered without incident, we don?t know. If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory board, I am all ears. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 16:06:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:06:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county Message-ID: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?The baseline plan which starts in 9 days: we will have all mainstream students distance learning at first, probably the first semester. The students identified as struggling, the disengaged, language challenged, economically challenged, homeless, the illegal immigrants, the learning disabled, juvenile delinquents on probation for major violent felonies etc will be on campus starting 13 August as will some of the (bravest) teachers. >?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the cameras. Imagine please a campus which last year had about 3400 students and about 160 staff. Starting in 9 days, that campus will have an estimated 600 students with about 70 staff. Under ordinary circumstances, that would be a great high school, however? that particular crowd might be different. We have filtered out all the elite and mainstream students, and left a concentration of problem students, students with an attitude, students who have developed an attitude over the summer by the riots and such, students with disabilities, etc, without the boring faceless masses to dilute them. This could be a scary time for those on campus who are not themselves scary, but are there because both parents work and the family cannot afford daycare or cannot leave them home alone for whatever reason. Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions welcome. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 16:07:33 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:07:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7171CB4E-794D-45B9-B495-21F05FD1F8B1@gmail.com> On Aug 3, 2020, at 10:07 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a > percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then > the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and > consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every > flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no > longer profitable. > > There's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains > of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. The level of societal > destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is > difficult to estimate. > > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in > response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did > makes sense. What about policy choice under uncertainty? Real world choices almost always are made where one doesn?t have accurate data. So post hoc corrections can?t really mean choices made were senseless. And when there?s contradictory data, then there might several conflicting yet sensible choices, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 16:07:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:07:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> **distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for > the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom > disengaged entirely.* > Unfortunately I think that's probably true, but bad as it is distance learning is not as big a failure as death is. > If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory > board, I am all ears. If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Aug 4 16:43:02 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:43:02 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> On 04/08/2020 17:07, Mike Dougherty wrote: > Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence? I don't know. More information is needed. Do all cockatiels do this? Are they in time with the beat? Do they follow changes in tempo? Do they appear to enjoy it, or is it some kind of response to an irritating noise? Do they do this under different circumstances? Etc. Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 16:51:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 09:51:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 2020 9:08 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:31 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > distance learning is working for a few, generally not working well for the middle and is a total failure for the lower end students, many of whom disengaged entirely. Unfortunately I think that's probably true, but bad as it is distance learning is not as big a failure as death is. > If you have any ideas or suggestions for the local public school advisory board, I am all ears. If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? If we eliminate or ignore small countries where a small error makes a huge difference and only focus on big countries, Belgium is the hardest hit in the world with UK close behind, if measured in deaths per capita. Oh those outfits have high numbers, mercy. However? both of those places have very plausible arguments for why their numbers are so high, which has nothing to do with schools: Brussels is kinda sorta the capital of Europe (depending on how you look at it) and London is the financial capital of the world (depending on how you look at it) so those places just have a lotta international travel. Spain, Peru, Italy, all better stay home. Borderline cases: Sweden, Chile, USA, France, Brazil, all with borderline numbers. I don?t know how the other nations work, but the authority on public schools in the USA is at the state level, so I think we would need to break that down by state to make sense of it. We also should pay attention to what Belgium is saying: these numbers are not comparable because they are not being counted the same way. I have half a mind to believe them. The Belgians seem honest to me: some of my own ancestors are from there (if we go back to the early 1700s.) Schools are a special case. Patrons patronize a business by choice, but children must go to school (in some form or other (by law (in the US.))) This brings up another interesting question. Last year we had about 18% of the students who disengaged: either never logged on or stopped logging on. We were required to give the students either a letter grade (if they requested that system) or give a pass/fail. However? when it came right down to the finish line, it was unclear if the school had the right to assign a fail grade to students who did not engage. They could argue they ran out of bandwidth or their computer didn?t work or they couldn?t hear or any number of flimsy excuses. As far as we could tell, the school was (almost (perhaps)) legally obligated to pass them anyway, even if they never logged on. So? we did. What if? that happens again? Or rather, what happens WHEN that happens again? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 17:19:36 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 12:19:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. Ben Zaiboc Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 11:44 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 04/08/2020 17:07, Mike Dougherty wrote: > > Is a cockatiel head bobbing with heavy baseline sufficient evidence? > > I don't know. More information is needed. Do all cockatiels do this? Are > they in time with the beat? Do they follow changes in tempo? Do they > appear to enjoy it, or is it some kind of response to an irritating > noise? Do they do this under different circumstances? Etc. > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 17:53:19 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:53:19 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 18:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not evidence. > Ben Zaiboc > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. > bill w > Lots more than one! :) BillK From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:04:48 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:04:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: T > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ... Both sites acknowledged that the data sources are the county health departments, neither site included a disclaimer on how the deaths are counted, even though caveats are clearly spelled out on the county sites. >...If deaths were half or two x, would it make any difference? Keith > Ja sure would. If the mortality rate for covid really is about half a percent, then covid isn't all that different from other flu epidemics. Then the whole shutdown notion was a huge epic failure, with enormous cost and consequences. If we decide we are going to shut down the economy for every flu epidemic, many businesses are not feasible and many investments are no longer profitable. The COVID-19 death rate will not be known until the pandemic is over. That makes it hard to fault the public health shutdowns, which in any case were targeted to keeping the hospitals from being swamped. They were swamped in Ecuador, people died at home and their bodies were left out on the streets. > here's more to it. If the covid mortality rate is similar to other strains of flu, we have been mass manipulated and deceived. That implies intent, I can't buy that. It's far more likely that the health officials were doing the best they could on incomplete information. For example, the main accepted mode of transmission has shifted from picking up the virus from a surface to aerosol, the superspreader events. Had this been known since the start, masks would have been recognized as vital. Also, the aerosol transmission route is disrupted by being out of buildings. Big experiment, the demonstrations were not followed by a jump in COVID infections. Opening the indoor bars has turned out to be a disaster. So have church services. There is an additional factor that the health people have not worked into their accounting. Some of the people who get COVID-19 have lasting after effects, particularly heart damage. Permanent damage or a long recovery time was seen in the people who got the original SAR infection. > The level of societal destruction directly or indirectly responsible for the induced hysteria is difficult to estimate. > If the mortality rate really is about 3%, everything humanity did in response makes sense. If it is half a percent, nothing this species did makes sense. "From a blog I am reading: "Exactly, crashing the economy and ruining millions of lives for the sake of a slight retardation in the deaths of the very elderly. Simply insane." For my age, the death rate is around 10%. If there is a vaccine soon, the shutdowns will be seen as a life-saving idea. If not, the "area under the curve" will be much the same. The indirect effect on hospitals may be worse than people on ventilators filling the ICUs To a large extent (as you have noted) people have been avoiding hospitals if they can. This is individual decisions, not advice of the government. Sometimes this is fatal. As far as economics goes, I didn't eat out more than a few times a year. My expenses for groceries and related things have gone up by about 20% partly because of delivery charges. A bit from The Gardian. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/aug/04/coronavirus-pandemic-wave-wildfire "Like a wildfire, the virus relentlessly seeks out fuel (human hosts), devastating some areas while sparing others. It will continue spreading until we achieve sufficient herd immunity ? when 50 to 70% of the population has developed protective antibodies ? to significantly slow transmission. We will achieve herd immunity either through widespread infection or an effective and widely available vaccine. No amount of official happy talk will change that course." Keith From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 18:20:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:20:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201d66a8b$e3658d10$aa30a730$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat >...The COVID-19 death rate will not be known until the pandemic is over... Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or campaigning, but rather a laser focus on the science and the data, which is really what we do best in this forum. May you escape this brutal scourge, and also your bride. May cryonics work for us, may we live (even if softly) to see the heat death of the universe or the big rip (owww, damn that sounds painful (even to a sim.)) spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 18:30:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 11:30:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county In-Reply-To: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: school ideas, was: RE: [ExI] next county From: spike at rainier66.com > >>?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? >?So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the cameras?Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions welcome?spike There?s something else I need to mention which might come into play. In any capitalist system, the average prole does better than the average prole in communism. But there is a universal observation: the rich get richer. In schools, as more and more online resources come available, the academically rich get richer faster than before. Perhaps we have plenty of elite and talented students present, well you remember high school. You remember how much or even most of your time was wasted waiting for the others to catch up. But they never did. How we would have soared with eagles had we the resources the young have today. After Mr. Musk came to town brining all those smart driven H1Bs, we have watched our local public school?s average scores march northward, oh my what a marvelous trend. Less discussed but even more dramatic: the accompanying northward charge of the standard deviation. The academically rich are getting fabulously rich, the academically poor and those who do not use the free online resources, are getting nothing, perhaps even less than they were getting before. Online instruction is leading to increased academic polarization. It is almost like the fall of the Berlin Wall, when communism fell. There are those who argue that increased academic polarization is a bad thing, even if average scores are going up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:35:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:35:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: <83f8b6f6-654d-13f8-8a40-49a5f1e3b7ca@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: If that cockatiel understands rhythm I'm a platypus. Just imitation behavior. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:56 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 18:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not > evidence. > > Ben Zaiboc > > > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable > esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly be > noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal evidence > should be ignored. Extremes or things thought to be impossible for sure. > > bill w > > > > Lots more than one! :) > > < > https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=cockatiel+dancing&atb=v154-1&iax=videos&ia=videos > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 18:45:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:45:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] school ideas, was: RE: next county In-Reply-To: <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> References: <00d701d66a79$33adbee0$9b093ca0$@rainier66.com> <001b01d66a8d$510d2fc0$f3278f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Some students should have been left behind circa the 8th or 9th grade. Shunted into plumbing, carpentry, or just their choice. Not academically inclined nor academically gifted. Good money to be made in those fields. This would get rid of some parts of the bottom of the curve. Our stupid state requires algebra to graduate from high school. Stupid. No available training for other than academic professions. Perhaps many of those uninterested are just blown away by 9th grade algebra and the like. Not dumb or stupid or just immature - bored with what they can't understand. Hard to like something you cannot understand. I think we should have a high school 'major' in retail sales. Lack of that learning may be in part responsible for all the small retail stores going under in a few years. No finance classes in high school. No, it's not just attitude in those failing to take advantage of online learning. Is there any plumbing there? Carpentry? (probably so - do they know that? Are they ever told that if academics don't suit them here are these other options? I doubt it.) bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 1:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* school ideas, was: RE: [ExI] next county > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >>?We rigged up some cameras which follow motion? > > > > >?So we will get really good video of whoever it was who stole the > cameras?Our current baseline plan is far from perfect. Suggestions > welcome?spike > > > > > > There?s something else I need to mention which might come into play. In > any capitalist system, the average prole does better than the average prole > in communism. But there is a universal observation: the rich get richer. > > > > In schools, as more and more online resources come available, the > academically rich get richer faster than before. Perhaps we have plenty of > elite and talented students present, well you remember high school. You > remember how much or even most of your time was wasted waiting for the > others to catch up. But they never did. How we would have soared with > eagles had we the resources the young have today. > > > > After Mr. Musk came to town brining all those smart driven H1Bs, we have > watched our local public school?s average scores march northward, oh my > what a marvelous trend. Less discussed but even more dramatic: the > accompanying northward charge of the standard deviation. The academically > rich are getting fabulously rich, the academically poor and those who do > not use the free online resources, are getting nothing, perhaps even less > than they were getting before. > > > > Online instruction is leading to increased academic polarization. It is > almost like the fall of the Berlin Wall, when communism fell. There are > those who argue that increased academic polarization is a bad thing, even > if average scores are going up. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 19:57:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:57:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how >> schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in >> the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work >> anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools >> in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. >> > > > John K Clark > > > > *> What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? * > I'm not sure what the exact cut off number is, but whatever that point is we certainly passed it by a week in early July when just Florida and Texas reported 3 times more new COVID-19 cases than all 27 countries of the European Union combined. The European numbers would look even better if it wasn't for Sweden; the former great example of how to handle a pandemic without damaging an economy has turned into the new Sick Man of Europe. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:23:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:23:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attention Will Message-ID: https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to better mental health medicines. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:35:04 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 21:35:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 17:53, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? If we eliminate or ignore small countries where a small error makes a huge difference and only focus on big countries, Belgium is the hardest hit in the world with UK close behind, if measured in deaths per capita. Oh those outfits have high numbers, mercy. > > However? both of those places have very plausible arguments for why their numbers are so high, which has nothing to do with schools: Brussels is kinda sorta the capital of Europe (depending on how you look at it) and London is the financial capital of the world (depending on how you look at it) so those places just have a lotta international travel. Spain, Peru, Italy, all better stay home. > > Borderline cases: Sweden, Chile, USA, France, Brazil, all with borderline numbers. I don?t know how the other nations work, but the authority on public schools in the USA is at the state level, so I think we would need to break that down by state to make sense of it. > > We also should pay attention to what Belgium is saying: these numbers are not comparable because they are not being counted the same way. I have half a mind to believe them. The Belgians seem honest to me: some of my own ancestors are from there (if we go back to the early 1700s.) > > Schools are a special case. Patrons patronize a business by choice, but children must go to school (in some form or other (by law (in the US.))) > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike This article just arrived. Looks like useful information. One quote I noticed was : Communities can use three basic metrics for assessing the virus?s spread: COVID-19 cases, hospitalizations and how many tests for SARS-CoV-2 are coming back positive. There are no magic numbers for these metrics, Armstrong says; instead of looking at one day or one value, it?s important to look at trends over the course of two weeks. ?If your trends are not coming down, then there?s a problem,? she says. -------------------------- So if areas are using different counting methods you can't compare areas, but you can look at the trends in each area. BillK From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 20:36:15 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:36:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome study! Psilocybin is also being researched at JHU and mushrooms are being considered for decriminalization in some locales. In general we are having a bit of a psychedelic renaissance--I have even seen psychedelic psychotherapy clinicse in NYC, not sure how they operate legally though, perhaps affiliated with a research organization. I heartily recommend all of you smart folks to try psychedelic substances. Premium gas is best used in engines of the highest quality. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 16:24 William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but > I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that > psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to > better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 20:57:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 13:57:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 12:53 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> If this was January or even February I'd have some suggestions on how schools might stay open and people not die, but this is August and in the US the virus is so out of control none of those ideas would work anymore. Most European and Asian countries can safely reopen their schools in the fall, but I'm sorry to say the US can not. John K Clark > What should be the cutoff between can and cannot? >?I'm not sure what the exact cut off number is, but whatever that point is we certainly passed it? We? You and I don?t live in the same state. >? when just Florida and Texas reported 3 times more new COVID-19 cases? John K Clark OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. New York, New Jersey, schools stay closed. Clearly some states can open their schools. California has delegated most of the responsibility to the county level on public schools, so that one is a special case for very understandable reasons: there are some counties which are covid catastrophes and some which are nearly untouched. I see five counties up in the north end with 752 confirmed cases (combined) with zero fatalities in any of them. Oh wait, that report was from last week. Most recent data from today: 752 confirmed cases (combined) with zero fatalities. Note that the 752 patients who didn?t perish in those counties survived WITH covid, but not necessarily OF covid. (?sensa huma, sheesh?) I had heard of those counties for the reason that none of them shut down their businesses and the state authorities didn?t mess with them. Eh, it is a good idea to jump at every opportunity to not mess with Modoc County. Or Lassen, or Plumas, Sierra, Shasta, those kindsa places. They whoop ass up that way if one fails to be respectful and carry oneself with gentlemanly manners. Clearly the decisions on how those counties should run their business shouldn?t be made in Sacramento, where the same rules would apply in Los Angeles county with nearly 200k confirmed cases and 4700 fatalities (oh dear, close those schools, close everything forthwith down there.) So, OK then. California is a mixed bag. The governor made a sensible decision: conditions in counties vary widely, so they must make the call. Problem: the county health departments then become power without accountability: they aren?t elected. I don?t know if mayors have the authority to overrule county health departments in California. Some states are in really good shape: Hawaii, Montana, Wyoming, Kentucky, West Virginia, Vermont and Alaska for instance. Those outfits should open their schools and get on with it. Montana, Vermont and Wyoming were already doing well academically, but my birth state of Kentucky and family seat in West Virginia can certainly use some help academically. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 21:07:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:07:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike This article just arrived. Looks like useful information. https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-kids-schools-opening-when-how-risks One quote I noticed was : ... ?If your trends are not coming down, then there?s a problem,? she says. -------------------------- >...So if areas are using different counting methods you can't compare areas, but you can look at the trends in each area. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! Excellent article! Very informative. I might speculate that Puerto Rico mighta gotten holda some bad test kits. That 100.00% positive rate just looks a bit suspish. If we compare by area, my city and the one to the north are in good shape to reopen schools: our case load has been mercifully mild. How is UK handling school re-opening? Do you have something analogous to our state governors there? Can Scotland and Ireland and Wales make their own calls? spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:23:36 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:23:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision Message-ID: I understand the need at times to ban people. I have done it twice on Power Satellite Economics for people who persisted in posting nonsense. There are people on this list that I almost always skip and seldom reply to. That seems as effective as anything. I agree that posts about US politics are not much use since most of us have rather strong opinions about the current situation. But I really hope that meta-level discussion is not banned. How we got into the situation and what might be done to prevent it from continuing or getting worse is a legitimate topic, though I must admit that few people seem to grok the underlying stone age origin. Also hope humor is not banned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpIkl2QnJeI NSFW Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:24:48 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:24:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools.* Spike, if there's ever *anything* that needs a coordinated national strategy it's a pandemic because the virus doesn't know or care what state it's in. Remember when people were saying the epidemic was just a local phenomenon and only people in New York City need to worry about it? People cross state lines and their viruses go with them. The long-term effect of dealing with this on a strictly local level will inevitably produce lots and lots of local charnel houses. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 21:40:21 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:40:21 +0100 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00ba01d66aa3$331c3b30$9954b190$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 at 22:09, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > How is UK handling school re-opening? Do you have something analogous to our state governors there? Can Scotland and Ireland and Wales make their own calls? > > spike > _______________________________________________ Hi Spike Chaos is how I would describe the UK situation. Yes, each country can make their own rules. These government rules keep changing though. Local councils can also make rules. Headmasters and teachers also argue about rules. Some schools will open, some won't. Some parents will refuse to send their children to school until much later. The government has spent months trying to terrify the population, closing businesses and putting people into house arrest and now they are surprised that people are getting angry. Anything could happen really as some towns are now going back into lockdown. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 21:41:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 14:41:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. >?Spike, if there's ever anything that needs a coordinated national strategy it's a pandemic because the virus doesn't know or care what state it's in. Remember when people were saying the epidemic was just a local phenomenon and only people in New York City need to worry about it? People cross state lines and their viruses go with them. The long-term effect of dealing with this on a strictly local level will inevitably produce lots and lots of local charnel houses. John K Clark Granted the virus can cross state lines, however governors are the ones who have the actual legal authority on schools. The Fed doesn?t and cannot have the authority for that, which is good: conditions vary too much from state to state and within states from county to county. I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would you? Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you? Why? I agree with California?s approach: the final call on schools must be made at the county level. What I don?t know is if mayors can overrule county health officials. If they can?t, that itself is a new concern: the elected guy is overruled by the unelected. Conditions vary a lot in a nation as big as this. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Tue Aug 4 22:00:55 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:00:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill, Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for info on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for broader psychedelic science news. -Henry > On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:07:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 17:07:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Henry, but I just ran across that in Google News and have no particular interest in it. Will will see it. bill w On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:02 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bill, > Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for info > on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for > broader psychedelic science news. > -Henry > > On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 > > There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, but > I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that > psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to > better mental health medicines. > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:29:13 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 08:29:13 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 22:44:42 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 18:44:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] attention Will In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Both great websites! My favorite psychedelic-related website, though, is http://www.erowid.org ;) On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 6:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks Henry, but I just ran across that in Google News and have no > particular interest in it. Will will see it. bill w > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:02 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Bill, >> Among other places, check https://maps.org/ for >> info on contemporary psychedelic research and https://www.psymposia.com/ for >> broader psychedelic science news. >> -Henry >> >> On Aug 4, 2020, at 4:23 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> >> https://www.psypost.org/2020/08/neuroimaging-study-suggests-a-single-dose-of-ayahuasca-produces-lasting-changes-in-two-important-brain-networks-57565 >> >> There were studies of LSD in the early 60s re treatment of alcoholism, >> but I have not seen anything since. So I think this is a great sign that >> psychotropic substances will be experimented with and perhaps lead to >> better mental health medicines. >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 4 23:52:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2020 16:52:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014c01d66aba$4e0c7970$ea256c50$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > OK so Florida and Texas shouldn?t open their schools. Texas revised their covid-19 death count downward after a change in the rules on how to count them. They now must go by the cause of death listed on the death certificate: https://thejewishvoice.com/2020/08/cdc-chief-agrees-theres-perverse-economic-incentive-for-hospitals-to-inflate-coronavirus-deaths/ CDC Director Robert Redfield: I think you?re correct in that we?ve seen this in other disease processes too, really in the HIV epidemic, somebody may have a heart attack, but also have HIV ? the hospital would prefer the [classification] for HIV because there?s greater reimbursement. https://www.c-span.org/video/?474168-1/drs-fauci-redfield-testify-national-strategy-combat-covid-19 &live Hmmm. This tells me that Texas was gathering covid death data from hospitals previously, but now they are reading actual death certificates. We need a unified system for deciding what is and what is not a covid death. Without that, we have self-contradictory web pages, like those California counties, where the chart is labeled Covid-19 deaths but the fine print says they didn?t necessarily die of Covid-19. Sheesh, oh well, at least that isn?t political. It?s just business. Economic incentives are not perverse. They are economic. Actual perversion is perverse. Economics is only money. But big decisions are still riding on that data. Now I hafta wonder, since BillK explains that UK is also having a bit of bother on this topic: do nations in general have a way to deal with cases where patients expired WITH covid-19 but it is unclear if they perished OF covid-19? What happens if a country is incentivized the other way, to under-report covid deaths, for national pride for example? How far can the whole thing be stretched back the other way? Can Swedish medics claim on death certificates that the patient perished from overdosing on meatballs and ABBA records? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:17:35 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 01:17:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. Ah, Spike, think about this a bit. Do you want elected people who may not know anything about public health making public health decisions? A *lot* of the teachers are relatively old. I think they have good reason to be concerned about dying of COVID. If you want to do something useful, try proposing teachers wear the powered HEPA filters and helmet the COVID ICU nurses wear. The nurses work for months in a virus saturated environment and few if any of them get sick. Retail, they are around $700, but in quantity probably half that much or less. There is a much lower cost and slightly related way to protect the students, we could talk about on the phone. You are an engineer. This is an engineering problem. I think finding and getting a solution tried and accepted is a lot more useful than worrying about relatively small distortions in the death records of counties. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 08:37:11 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 01:37:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc woote snip > My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. I think it is completely obvious. Oliver Sacks reported decades ago on a woman musician who had a stroke in the area directly opposite her speech area and completely lost all her music skills (but nothing else). So we know where music is located in the brain. The origin was our obviously strongly selected speech abilities. Bilateral symmetry gave the brain an area that could control speech but was not used for that and was available for something else, music. There has probably been evolutionary selection to make humans better singers, but these two factors are enough to account for the origin of music in humans, a side effect of speech and bilateral symmetry. Keith PS now if it could just figure out how the traits for religion were selected in the same events that selected traits for wars . . . . From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 09:37:05 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 02:37:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or campaigning, Thanks for the compliment. My actual thoughts on the current situation puts John in the shade. Worse, I understand the stone age origins of the situation even if I fail to pass that understanding to many on this list. (it is somewhat involved.) Some on this list know that my last (failed) attempt to change something of this class got me refugee status in Canada for a few years followed by months in solitary confinement in a jail that is now a hotbed of virus infection. The FBI failed as well. The cult's influence forced the FBI off a case involving human trafficking and illegal confinement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_(Scientology) https://tonyortega.org/2017/05/03/confirmation-of-the-2009-fbi-trafficking-probe-of-scientology-that-the-church-denied/ If any of you wonder why I self-censor . . . . Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 10:50:31 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 03:50:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Unitarian Universalist was meaning of life Message-ID: UUs do have some unstated beliefs, they are (or were 40 years ago) hostile to cryonics. Humanists had similar attitudes. I analyzed their opposition as a case of applying "liberal guilt." >From an old cryonet posting: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=18376 >Why single out Christianity? Is not all religion similarly responsible - >diverting effort from what really may solve the problem of death into >pointless ceremony and ritual? Memetic reasons. This is an article with the point of bringing Humanists around to our view of the world, call it progressive as opposed to the dominant view some years ago of "liberal guilt," that it was unfair for a few selfish people to live while all the poor died. Some of you may remember the very hostile reaction cryonics got (we were asked to leave) a Humanist meeting in San Jose ten or twelve years ago. Unitarians shared much of the same ideas, a Unitarian minister was defrocked for speaking out about cryonics about the same time. I knew a UU minister who (I made a case) was defrocked over his talking about cryonics. The story, including his view of what happened, is written up somewhere, but I can't find it. It was a funny story and the minister involved made out like a bandit, he got a job he really liked that paid much better. Has been signed up for cryonics for a long time now. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 11:39:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:39:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would > you?* Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive ability leading the effort. > *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the USA. *> Why?* Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 11:59:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 07:59:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:40 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *My actual thoughts on the current* *situation puts John in the shade. *[...] > *If any of you wonder why I self-censor . . . .* Keith, you're a braver man than I am! If I had endured a tenth as much injustice as you have I'd be practicing self-censorship too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 13:30:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:30:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002501d66b2c$a0d1ded0$e2759c70$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >> ....The governor has some influence on how we start school in 9 days, but ironically? the people who may have the most direct influence are members of the county health department, who can shut us down if we don?t pass their inspection. But we don?t know who they are, because they? are? not? elected. Think about that for a minute. Oy vey, mercy. Unelected bureaucrats can overrule everything we are trying to do. >...Ah, Spike, think about this a bit. Do you want elected people who may not know anything about public health making public health decisions?... >...You are an engineer. This is an engineering problem. >...I think finding and getting a solution tried and accepted is a lot more useful than worrying about relatively small distortions in the death records of counties. >...Keith _______________________________________________ Keith, a comment by BillK has been rattling around in my brain, and your comments add to my thinking. I asked BillK how Britain was handling all this, having been hit harder by covid than the USA (note that I am not criticizing Her Majesty the Queen with that observation (there was damn little she coulda done (because their international travel there is intense (even after the big annual Beatles memorabilia auction was canceled (they still have that big international money thing going on (which is why England is so rich (so Queen Elizabeth couldn't have done much to stop it really (still England is such an oddity (their queens are female there (but I digress.)))))) BillK commented that their towns and school headmasters could make their own rules, which sounded odd until I realized it makes sense. In any engineering site where stuff is being built where proles could be slain if it collapses, every lower level person on that site has the authority to raise a red flag. For instance, you mighta seen that epic fail that happened at Lockheed: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1783/was-the-noaa-n-prime-satellit e-really-dropped-on-the-floor Yes it really happened. I wasn't that guy standing to the left of the door is a friend of mine. There was universal agreement after the satellite hit the floor: Um... I don't think that was supposed to happen. After that unplanned event, a bunch of safety rules were changed, which empowered every person in that cleanroom, from the crane operator (who already had the authority) down thru guys like me, whose job it is to empty the waste baskets and scrape the gum off the floor. Any person who sees anything that can raise a red flag and stop everything until that person's concerns are met. We haven't dropped a single multi-million dollar satellite on the floor since then. After I read BillK's comment, I realized they have a system that is analogous to that in a way. Their headmasters are (I think) analogous to what we would call a principal (the person who makes the final call on-site on whether something is safe (who is herself often an older, perhaps wiser person (which means higher personal risk should she catch something.))) We are developing something similar here, for similar reasons: school principals dang well should have the authority to raise a red flag. Every school is different. In our town we have only one high school, and we have skerjillions of hard-charging Indian people cramming into local homes and apartments near the Tesla plant, eager to learn how to build electric cars, so India doesn't repeat China's mistakes (Indians are rather fond of breathing.) Result: we have an example of a high school which is so packed, we could go to double shifts and STILL not meet the social distancing requirements, never mind the fortunate few who get to break those rules. That is a case where a principal dang sure should be able to raise a red flag before the satellite comes crashing down like Dorothy's house on the Wicked Witch of the East (note: no actual feet were found sticking out from under the prematurely de-orbited satellite in the link above.) So England is right after all. That female queen still blows my mind, but hey, their country, their rules. spike spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 13:38:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 06:38:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002601d66b2d$b71d9d40$2558d7c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county wrote: snip >>... Keith thanks for that post. It was one of the most insight-filled > commentaries I have seen here, not a trace of political content or > campaigning, >...Thanks for the compliment. My actual thoughts on the current situation puts John in the shade. Worse, I understand the stone age origins of the situation even if I fail to pass that understanding to many on this list. (it is somewhat involved.)... Keith Keith you have not failed to pass understanding on evolutionary psychology. If you don't hear echos to your sonar pings, it is more likely because there is nearly universal agreement, and we don't know enough about that topic to contribute anything you haven't already thought circles around. I read you EP paper and found very little to question. We damn sure do have some kind of DNA-coded behaviors within which evolved under very different conditions, and some are hurting us, perhaps the most obvious one: the urge to squeeze out multible larvae onto a planet with already way too many of us crawling and writhing about. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 17:15:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <18609419-0AE1-4F25-971D-F053BB92C954@gmail.com> Most people don?t look at them. I think they exist to allow people a feeling of control via the illusion of being ?well informed?. SR Ballard > On Aug 4, 2020, at 10:23 AM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > > When a government program retains massive funding and universal support despite it being literally impossible for it to fulfill its stated objectives, assume that the stated objectives are a lie and that it is fulfilling its /actual/ objectives perfectly. > > The actual objective of those state COVID dashboards is /not/ to empower a vast army of amateur citizen epidemiologists. That would be absurd and counterproductive. The state already has all the epidemiology expertise it needs on tap. > > The /actual/ objective of thos COVID dashboards is to make us afraid. > > And they are working perfectly for the overwhelming majority of the population. > > No problems here. Move along, citizen.. > >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 7:52 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 9:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> >Everything is not political. >> >> Very true, everything is not political, however if I were to systematically debate your points one by one, as is my usual habit, in the current atmosphere there's not a doubt in my mind that I would be accused of being political and booted off the list. Therefore your arguments must remain unchallenged. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 17:22:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 10:22:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next satellite, was: RE: next county Message-ID: <006e01d66b4c$fe225e00$fa671a00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...... you mighta seen that epic fail that happened at Lockheed: https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1783/was-the-noaa-n-prime-satellit e-really-dropped-on-the-floor >...Yes it really happened...spike There was a fun aside to that whole premature de-orbit episode, also known by the acronym RUDE (Rapid Unplanned Disassembly Event) that occurred at Lockheed Sunnyvale in 2003. Some of it wasn't fun: four guys lost the hell outta their jobs: the bay supervisor, the project manager, at least two inspectors, all bad stuff, perhaps their worst day at work ever, worse than the time they lost 100 bucks in the March Madness basketball pool, but there was an educational aside to all of it. This was a weather satellite. I was not on that project (other than to design the interface bolts between the satellite and the ground-handling platform (kidding, bygones (I wasn't involved it NOAA at all (but I have friends who were (we space cases talk to each other a lot (dumping the satellite on the floor was what Orwell would say is double plus ungood (or the Ghost Busters would call "bad.")))))) Here's the kicker to all that. A normal prole would look at that photo and say we just lost a 290 million dollar satellite, but... we didn't. As crazy as it sounds, an abnormal prole such as a rocket scientist from Lockheed would point out there was surprisingly little damage. Not kidding this time. Read on please, space fans. When a satellite is in the bay, it has operational accelerometers all over it to witness everything that happens (the inspectors hafta view the data after it is buttoned up in the ride, then sign off that nothing scary happened to the bird during manufacture, transportation and loading onto the rocket.) So... the engineers knew how much shock the components saw during the RUDE. Then, they compared to the specification for each of the electronic boxes and discovered that nearly all of them were still qualified for launch! So... they took the electroncis off that wrecked bus, did a few functional tests, everything passed (because electronic boxes on a satellite are already deigned for high-G high shock launch environment) mounted them onto a spare bus we already had, did a few more functional tests, the program went right on, with only a schedule delay. One can imagine it was quite a shock to the dozen bunny-suited proles in the assembly bay at the time of the RUDE, but apparently that shock event was within spec, for no one perished from it as far as we know. Another fun aside: this accident coulda been a hell of a lot worse. It coulda fallen on some hapless prole. Well sure, but I mean even assuming no injury to the meat in the assembly bay, it still coulda been a lot worse. Reason: the solar panels and the control moment gyros were not installed at the time, as you can see from that forlorn image, none of which would have survived that RUDE. The gyros go on near the end of the assembly for that reason: those babies are relatively delicate, and they go underneath the solar panels on this particular bus. You just don't want those out where any yahoo can drop the satellite on the floor. So... Weird outcome: we lost the bus obviously, but we had a spare, in accordance with the well-known space-case philosophy: never buy one when you can buy two for only twice the price. We had a spare, the really expensive assemblies were salvaged and moved over, a coupla smaller black boxes were damaged beyond salvage (but we had spares for those too.) We took the nearly uninjured team off that bus and loaded em onto another, some of the biggest stars were not even aboard the bus when it crashed anyway, off they went to arrive at the game only slightly late. After this event, the NOAA N' was considered perfectly safe: we already knew it couldn't suffer a similar fate again, just by the law of averages: the chances of the same satellite being dumped on the floor twice are so small as to be negligible. Happy ending kinda: the program ran into unexpected costs because of the accident (space projects do that) but it was repaired eventually launched in 2009, not all that far behind schedule. NOAA N' had a design-life of 2 years, but if you are a hurricane tracker on the US east coast today, the data you are getting is being partly supplied by this pre-disastered bird. NOAA N' is still flying and still fully operational, handing down life-saving data to this day, more than 11 yrs later, and 18 yrs after that embarrassing RUDE. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 5 17:41:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 18:41:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/08/2020 21:35, bill w wrote: > Anecdotal tales of a single cockatiel doing this is certainly not > evidence. > Ben Zaiboc > > Why not? Even one instance of a person flying, demonstrating reliable > esp, coming back from the dead, and many other things would certainly > be noteworthy, and that's a huge understatement. Not all anecdotal > evidence should be ignored.? ?Extremes or things thought to be > impossible for sure. I'm not saying it should be ignored. I'm saying 'further research is needed'. I should have said "reliable evidence", I suppose. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 19:29:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:29:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just > answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: > > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >> you?* > > > Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If > astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would > slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and > village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the > situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how > to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive > ability leading the effort. > > >> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* > > > No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the > USA. > > *> Why?* > > > Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this > list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every > epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire > scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they > say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a > month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but > currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 19:47:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:47:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and under 60. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Please respond to this email if you agree with John: > > every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the > entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad > as they say, John > > bill w > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >> >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>> you?* >> >> >> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >> ability leading the effort. >> >> >>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >> >> >> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >> USA. >> >> *> Why?* >> >> >> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this >> list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every >> epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire >> scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they >> say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a >> month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but >> currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:10:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:10:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not > agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general > doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and > that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is > extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse > than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and > under 60. > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Please respond to this email if you agree with John: >> >> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >> as they say, John >> >> bill w >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >>> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>>> you?* >>> >>> >>> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >>> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >>> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >>> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >>> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >>> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >>> ability leading the effort. >>> >>> >>>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >>> >>> >>> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >>> USA. >>> >>> *> Why?* >>> >>> >>> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this >>> list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every >>> epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire >>> scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they >>> say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a >>> month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but >>> currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:25:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:25:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Tough question, but it's easy for me to say I don't believe we should do this with the flu! If we did, I'm relatively confident there would be no economy left to speak of. Some level of risk is unavoidable in living a life including driving a car, getting on a train or plane, etc. We can't stay in our boltholes 24/7. I would certainly not have knowingly put a policy into place like Cuomo (and others) did that ensured a large number of deaths in nursing homes where it spread like wildfire. It was known very early on how the demographics skew in terms of age and death. This policy is directly responsible for a very significant percentage of the deaths in NY. I'm in favor of frequent handwashing, social distancing/minimizing large scale gatherings, and potentially masks although I am very skeptical of cloth ones in terms of efficacy. I'm not in favor of keeping schools closed in areas that are not current hotspots, or state governments arbitrarily deciding which businesses can stay open and which ones need to be closed. I think we should do what we can to help protect elderly and at risk populations, but there is no way we can keep everything locked down depending on a vaccine to arrive (that might never be effective) based on the low IFR for the majority of the working population. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:11 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the > flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances > economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if > we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not >> agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general >> doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and >> that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is >> extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse >> than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and >> under 60. >> >> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Please respond to this email if you agree with John: >>> >>> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >>> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >>> as they say, John >>> >>> bill w >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just >>>> answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> *> I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would >>>>> you?* >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If >>>> astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would >>>> slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and >>>> village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the >>>> situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how >>>> to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive >>>> ability leading the effort. >>>> >>>> >>>>> *> Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you?* >>>> >>>> >>>> No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the >>>> USA. >>>> >>>> *> Why?* >>>> >>>> >>>> Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on >>>> this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, >>>> every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the >>>> entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad >>>> as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change >>>> in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, >>>> but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:30:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:30:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu > from a fatality rate standpoint* The COVID-19 fatality rate is not much worse than the garden-variety non-1918 flu, but it can still kill far more people because its infection rate is much higher; the number of Americans who have become infected with COVID-19 has jumper from 15 people on February 15 to 4,950,144 people today August 4, an increase of 54,504 infections just since yesterday. With just 4% of the world's population the USA now has 26.25% of all the COVID-19 infections in the entire world. Anyone who does not find that rate of growth terrifying does not understand the situation. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 20:45:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:45:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as ours are. The caveat right there on the page warns us this isn?t great data. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 20:50:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:50:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know that your assertion on current R0s for CV-19 compared to the flu is accurate. I will acknowledge that it is not the same R0 as if we did absolutely nothing, but even in hotspots, it is not extremely high with social distancing/large gathering bans implemented. See the current breakdown by state: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1119412/covid-19-transmission-rate-us-by-state/ RT live is another site that attempts to track Rt as close to real time as possible: https://rt.live/ On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:32 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu >> from a fatality rate standpoint* > > > The COVID-19 fatality rate is not much worse than the garden-variety > non-1918 flu, but it can still kill far more people because its infection > rate is much higher; the number of Americans who have become infected with > COVID-19 has jumper from 15 people on February 15 to 4,950,144 people today > August 4, an increase of 54,504 infections just since yesterday. With just > 4% of the world's population the USA now has 26.25% of all the COVID-19 > infections in the entire world. Anyone who does not find that rate of > growth terrifying does not understand the situation. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 20:56:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 13:56:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w The uncertainty in the covid death rate is one thing, but the uncertainty in the numbers who caught covid and recovered without incident, or who never knew they had it is even greater. Along with uncertainty in mortality rate we have still more uncertainty in how much damage this has done to the world economy. In my opinion, we need to focus on coming up with a realistic model for how much this shutdown is harming people. I have a tendency to underestimate this for I am a solitary old turd: not really a socialist at all. I get along fine with people but isolation doesn?t bother me much. However? I have friends who are going crazy from loneliness. I have friends whose lives are spinning out of control because their businesses are failing or their jobs are going away and they have no idea what they are going to do or where they will go. I am retired, so I have it easy. My bride?s job was declared essential and on she goes. My son is prospering under remote learning. So I am a fortunate exception. But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. spike On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 2:50 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: Well, I realize I am not following the reply instructions since I do not agree with John, but I'll mention again that the IFR for CV-19 in general doesn't warrant the amount of economic damage that has been done here, and that the IFR in non-elderly/non-serious preexisting conditions community is extremely low. I still have seen zero evidence that this is much worse than the flu from a fatality rate standpoint in anyone who is healthy and under 60. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:30 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Please respond to this email if you agree with John: every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, John bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 6:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: Mr. Mystery Man Moderator please note, in the following I am just answering questions that the former list moderator has asked me: On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:49 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > I wouldn?t want to live under the same rules New York needs. Would you? Yes if the threat was global not local as it is in a pandemic. If astronomers discovered an asteroid the size of Mount Everest that would slam into the earth in 20 years I wouldn't want each individual city and village and hamlet deciding independently on how to deal with the situation, I'd want a massive coordinated global strategy to figure out how to divert the damn thing and I'd want Intelligent people with lots of executive ability leading the effort. > Besides that, I don?t trust the federal government. Do you? No, I most certainly do NOT trust the current federal government of the USA. > Why? Ah, well as to that I can't say. I can't say because some people on this list are allowed to get political and spin conspiracy theories like, every epidemiologist and statistician and public health official and the entire scientific community is wrong and the pandemic is really not as bad as they say, and some people are not. The atmosphere around here may change in a month or two after another 100,000 Americans have died of the virus, but currently I'm #1 on the "not" list so I can say no more on that subject. John K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 5 21:03:47 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:03:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21fb6830-7409-4bb9-0bee-d302ac37599e@zaiboc.net> On 05/08/2020 21:10, Keith Henson wrote: > Ben Zaiboc woote > > snip > >> My main question, though, is What is it about? Why do we have music in > the first place? That to me is a complete mystery. > > I think it is completely obvious. Oliver Sacks reported decades ago > on a woman musician who had a stroke in the area directly opposite her > speech area and completely lost all her music skills (but nothing > else). So we know where music is located in the brain. The origin > was our obviously strongly selected speech abilities. Bilateral > symmetry gave the brain an area that could control speech but was not > used for that and was available for something else, music. > > There has probably been evolutionary selection to make humans better > singers, but these two factors are enough to account for the origin of > music in humans, a side effect of speech and bilateral symmetry. OK, that makes sense as far as singing (pitch) is concerned, but what about rhythm? I'd say that rhythm is fundamental to music, indispensable, whereas pitch is secondary and not even necessary. Drumming can stand alone, and is possibly more ancient than singing. We don't groove to the tune, it's the beat that's the thing that gets us going. Any explanations for that? (I don't buy the pre-natal hearbeat idea. All mammals hear their mother's heartbeat when they're foetuses, but it only seems to be humans that move their bodies in time when they hear a regular beat). Speech can have a rhythm, but it mostly doesn't, so I don't think that's it. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:11:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:11:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:53 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I don't know that your assertion on current R0s for CV-19 compared to > the flu is accurate. **I will acknowledge that it is not the same R0 as > if we did absolutely nothing, but even in hotspots, it is not extremely > high with social distancing/large gathering bans implemented.* > And social distancing and even simple facemask usage is exactly what some politicians, but certainly not any expert epidemiologists, want to stop because they think projecting an image of normalcy will help them in the November election. And things don't look normal if everybody is wearing facemasks and are standing 6 feet apart. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:20:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:20:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same > dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as > ours are.* Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 21:51:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 14:51:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c101d66b72$8a9d0b80$9fd72280$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > The public health officials and entire scientific community has the same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky as ours are. >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? John K Clark John I would urge them to carry up the caveats on the data from the level at which it is collected to the top level where it is reported. Make sure every dataset where comparisons are made clearly state there are uncertainties in the data based on where it is collected. The rates and ratios are given in nice crisp three digit precision, when some jurisdictions may be incentivized to undercount or overcount their rates for political or financial reasons. So? have them estimate the error range. Stop reporting three digits of precision when we are lucky if we can pick off one digit. We must recognize that decisions are being made, students are failing, careers are being ruined, businesses are dying based on a presumed certainty in data which is unjustifiable. The picture may be vaguely right, but don?t throw away the uncertainty bars on the data. This part is not abstract or philosophy: If businesses die, government dies, then we die. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 21:49:01 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:49:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: "Back off man, I'm a scientist" wasn't persuasive when Bill Murray said it, and isn't impressive now. Magick rituals where you wave a Phd diploma over a stack of garbage data may impress the journalists and the partisans, but they don't suddenly repeal the iron law of GIGO. On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 3:23 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The public health officials and entire scientific community has the >> same dataset we do. If the data is junky, their conclusions are as junky >> as ours are.* > > > Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a > matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to > tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do > their job and set the world's scientific community back on the correct path? > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 22:06:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:06:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do their job? John K Clark I don?t know if I answered your question John. I don?t need to tell epidemiologists and statisticians how to do their jobs, for they already know: never throw away uncertainty caveats in data. I do urge that every site reporting covid fatalities carry the caveat offered at the collection level: these are patients who died WITH Covid-19 but not necessarily die OF Covid-19. So, just carry the caveat all the way up in these terms: Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. Statisticians know to do this. Engineers and scientists know to do this. Doctors know to do this. They don?t need me to tell them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 22:43:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:43:01 -0500 Subject: [ExI] quote of the day Message-ID: 'The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.' Daniel Boorstin bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 22:48:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 15:48:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66. com> Message-ID: <012401d66b7a$7d11f7c0$7735e740$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?So, just carry the caveat all the way up in these terms: >?Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. >?Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. Statisticians know to do this?spike Now this is interesting. The most critical number to me isn?t what is happening in UK or Belgium or Los Angeles, the most critical numbers I need to know are the ones for Santa Clara County, which is where public school decisions are being made. So I go to their site, which has new caveats that showed up today, such as this one, in bold red font: Due to a significant and unresolved problem with the State of California?s CalREDIE reporting system, the County of Santa Clara Public Health Department, as well as county public health departments statewide, are experiencing significant underreporting of COVID-19 testing results. Because of this problem, the information presented in this dashboard/these dashboards since mid-July 2020 is incomplete. We will provide updates on the status of these reporting delays as soon as they are available. Additional information about these delays may be available from the State of California. OK well, that?s good to know: the new case rate might be under-reported. Unlike the California state site, Santa Clara County (and all the neighboring counties) carry this caveat: Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the individuals died from COVID-19. OK that too is good to know: we have deaths mixed with Covid-19 deaths in the database. https://www.sccgov.org/sites/covid19/Pages/dashboard-cases.aspx The graph itself is now labeled: New and Cumulative Deaths by Date of Death. The graph itself does not actually say covid-19 deaths, merely ?new and cumulative deaths by date of death.? Above the graph is a dashboard where it does specify the number as ?Cumulative COVID-19 Deaths?. It does not say OF or WITH on the most visible part of the dashboard. It sure looks self-contradictory to me. Conclusion: we have a junky dataset here, it is feeding up to the California state level where they throw away the caveats, and the local authorities are using suspect data to decide the fate of our schools. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 5 22:50:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:50:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The virus has quite a few effects on the body. Isn't it probable that a person dying of something else would not have died if he didn't have the virus? That means the combination killed him, not just the virus and not just whatever he had. In other words, perhaps the immune system was overloaded. bill w On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 5:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > >?Spike, this is not an abstract discussion about philosophy this is a > matter of life and death; do you really think you have the expertise to > tell all the epidemiologists and statisticians on the planet how to do > their job? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > I don?t know if I answered your question John. I don?t need to tell > epidemiologists and statisticians how to do their jobs, for they already > know: never throw away uncertainty caveats in data. > > > > I do urge that every site reporting covid fatalities carry the caveat > offered at the collection level: these are patients who died WITH Covid-19 > but not necessarily die OF Covid-19. So, just carry the caveat all the way > up in these terms: > > > > Covid-19 fatalities herein did not necessarily die of Covid-19. > > > > Now isn?t that simple? Just carry those 9 words all the way up. > Statisticians know to do this. Engineers and scientists know to do this. > Doctors know to do this. They don?t need me to tell them. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 5 23:25:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 16:25:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <003c01d66b69$5749c9c0$05dd5d40$@rainier66.com> <00cf01d66b74$b6f8def0$24ea9cd0$@rainier66. com> Message-ID: <018a01d66b7f$adc53710$094fa530$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county >?The virus has quite a few effects on the body. Isn't it probable that a person dying of something else would not have died if he didn't have the virus? That means the combination killed him, not just the virus and not just whatever he had. In other words, perhaps the immune system was overloaded. bill w Good question BilllW. There was a very consequential fatality on 25 May where the patient had covid-19, heart disease, arteriosclerosis, detectable levels of methamphetamines and cannabinoids, a lethal level of fentanyl and a cop?s knee on his neck a the time of death. Good chance his diseased heart was overloaded by all this. He died with covid-19 but not necessarily of covid-19. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Aug 5 23:56:14 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2020 16:56:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ --------- "The techniques that most of us use to navigate most of our decisions in life ? gathering information, evaluating it based on what we know, and choosing a course of action ? can lead to spectacular failures when it comes to a scientific matter. The reason is simple: most of us, even those of us who are scientists ourselves, lack the relevant scientific expertise needed to adequately evaluate that research on our own. In our own fields, we are aware of the full suite of data, of how those puzzle pieces fit together, and what the frontiers of our knowledge is." -------- Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other fields is ludicrous. Then he cites problems with climatology and COVID-19 as justifications which immediately shows his hand as making a political rather than logical argument. There is always a risk of spectacular failure in science regardless if a scientist works outside or inside his field. One could even make a case that science is built on failures and accidental discoveries. The failure of a new heart medication turns out to treat erectile dysfunction or a failure of microbiologist's sterile technique leads to the discovery of penicillin. In fact I would venture to say that when scientists in different fields cross-pollinate ideas and collaborate with one another, science is on a firmer footing. For example if climatologists would collaborate with economists and nuclear physicists and come up with economically feasible solutions to anthropogenic climate change maybe somebody other than socialists would take them seriously. And maybe if epidemiologists had consulted microbiologists, they would have had more realistic models and policy recommendations. I have heard it said that becoming an expert involves learning more and more about less and less until in the limit, one knows everything about nothing. Imagine how much poorer science would be if Louis Pasteur, whom Siegel would advise to stick to chemistry, did not color outside the lines of his field to give us germ theory and vaccination against rabies. Given all the evidence, I must conclude that Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining on matters not astrophysical in nature, is an elitist snob and idealogical stooge of the left. Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 00:32:14 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:32:14 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 09:57, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: > > > > https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2020/07/30/you-must-not-do-your-own-research-when-it-comes-to-science/amp/ > --------- > "The techniques that most of us use to navigate most of our decisions > in life ? gathering information, evaluating it based on what we know, > and choosing a course of action ? can lead to spectacular failures > when it comes to a scientific matter. > > The reason is simple: most of us, even those of us who are scientists > ourselves, lack the relevant scientific expertise needed to adequately > evaluate that research on our own. In our own fields, we are aware of > the full suite of data, of how those puzzle pieces fit together, and > what the frontiers of our knowledge is." > -------- > > Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on > behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in > their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions > in other fields is ludicrous. Then he cites problems with climatology > and COVID-19 as justifications which immediately shows his hand as > making a political rather than logical argument. There is always a > risk of spectacular failure in science regardless if a scientist works > outside or inside his field. > > One could even make a case that science is built on failures and > accidental discoveries. The failure of a new heart medication turns > out to treat erectile dysfunction or a failure of microbiologist's > sterile technique leads to the discovery of penicillin. In fact I > would venture to say that when scientists in different fields > cross-pollinate ideas and collaborate with one another, science is on > a firmer footing. > > For example if climatologists would collaborate with economists and > nuclear physicists and come up with economically feasible solutions > to anthropogenic climate change maybe somebody other than socialists > would take them seriously. And maybe if epidemiologists had consulted > microbiologists, they would have had more realistic models and policy > recommendations. > > I have heard it said that becoming an expert involves learning more > and more about less and less until in the limit, one knows everything > about nothing. Imagine how much poorer science would be if Louis > Pasteur, whom Siegel would advise to stick to chemistry, did not color > outside the lines of his field to give us germ theory and vaccination > against rabies. > > Given all the evidence, I must conclude that Siegal, aside from the > hypocrisy of opining on matters not astrophysical in nature, is an > elitist snob and idealogical stooge of the left. Whatever else you might say about the article, I didn?t see anything in it implying alignment with the political left, right or centre. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 02:18:04 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:18:04 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > Well Dylan, what would you do? Maybe we should have done this with the > flu. How do you come up with an equation or something that balances > economic loss with loss of life? How much is a life worth? Of course if > we all stayed indoors no one would die of a lightning strike, eh? bill w > > > > > > The uncertainty in the covid death rate is one thing, but the uncertainty > in the numbers who caught covid and recovered without incident, or who > never knew they had it is even greater. Along with uncertainty in > mortality rate we have still more uncertainty in how much damage this has > done to the world economy. > > > > In my opinion, we need to focus on coming up with a realistic model for > how much this shutdown is harming people. I have a tendency to > underestimate this for I am a solitary old turd: not really a socialist at > all. I get along fine with people but isolation doesn?t bother me much. > However? I have friends who are going crazy from loneliness. I have > friends whose lives are spinning out of control because their businesses > are failing or their jobs are going away and they have no idea what they > are going to do or where they will go. > > > > I am retired, so I have it easy. My bride?s job was declared essential > and on she goes. My son is prospering under remote learning. So I am a > fortunate exception. > > > > But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a > crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, > it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or > if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the > way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. > The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an economic crisis, and perhaps an even bigger one. The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering faster. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 03:57:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 20:57:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880 $a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >?It really is a crisis only. >?The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an economic crisis? Stathis, I don?t know how it works in Australia, but in the states, there is no level of government, federal, state, county, city or neighborhood association, which has the authority to order businesses to stay open. That order would be a no-op. >? there would still be an economic crisis and perhaps an even bigger one? A no-op cannot cause a bigger one. >?The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering faster. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, so we hear. Of course, there is an unstated caveat on the data in at least one country, where deaths with covid are being mixed with deaths of covid. So in that one country, the data is suspect. If we argue that China and North Korea managed to stop the virus, that still doesn?t help us in the USA, because there is no level of government with the level of power those outfits have. In the states, government cannot get that power unless they declare martial law. This they have not done. I suspect they will never do that in response to a disease. Martial law was not designed for that purpose. If millions were dropping dead with or of covid every day, declaring martial law is still is a dubious use of war powers act. That being said, the mortality rate with or of covid in the USA is apparently dropping, but as a fun little exercise for internet search jockeys, do go into Google or your favorite search engine and see for yourself how difficult it is to find a graph of covid deaths per day in the USA. It is possible to find individual states which will report fatalities per day, but no source wants to collect all of it, combine it and report covid fatalities per day in USA on a graph, because it requires combining a bunch of datasets of unknown quality, which means a resulting combined dataset of unknown quality. No one wants to put their name or their institution?s name on that. The closest I have found is Our World in Data, which shows a graph but carries a caveat: ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death means that the number of confirmed deaths may not be an accurate count of the true number of deaths from COVID-19. It also puts a logarithmic scale on the vertical which obscures numbers and covers uncertainties. Ok, cool we have the terms WITH and OF. I have heard our CDC saying they counted the WITHs together with the OFs. Last week we heard the director of our CDC testify in front of congress that in general the Withs are still being counted with the Ofs, and there is an economic incentive to do so. This site introduces a third term FROM. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/confirmed-covid-19-deaths-total-vs-daily I vaguely interpret FROM is equivalent to OF. FROM sounds more OFey than it does WITHey. They offer that it may not be an accurate count, but there too, the title of the graph kinda disagrees with the caveat, for the title of the graph introduces yet another term: ?due to.? Their graph title is Daily vs total confirmed deaths due to COVID-19. Then they explain in the subtitle the count may not be accurate because of ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death.? Well OK. I agree that it is challenging. I do genealogy and I study causes of death on death certificates. They don?t always know what slew the prole. In any case, I feel better seeing that the data-jockeys acknowledge this is a best guess. In any case, do search around the web, see if you can find a dataset of US fatalities per day, either OF, WITH, FROM, DUE TO, VAGUELY RELATED, or WAVING ACQUAINTANCES OF SOMEONE WHO HAD Covid-19. Please share it with me if you find it. What I am looking for is a graph that looks like this, but for the USA: Now that I am inquiring, Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 04:35:01 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:35:01 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 13:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] next county > > > > > > > > On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 06:59, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?It really is a crisis only. > > > > >?The crisis is because there is a deadly disease around, making people > reluctant to go about their normal activities. If the government ORDERED > businesses to stay open under these circumstances there would still be an > economic crisis? > > > > > > Stathis, I don?t know how it works in Australia, but in the states, there > is no level of government, federal, state, county, city or neighborhood > association, which has the authority to order businesses to stay open. > Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem. If the problem were less serious than has been stated, it would quickly become obvious that the countries where there were no restrictions were doing better, and everyone would follow. After all, the immediate reaction of almost everyone on first learning of the virus, from the officials in Wuhan to Donald Trump, was to ignore it and hope that it would go away. That order would be a no-op. > > > > >? there would still be an economic crisis and perhaps an even bigger one? > > > > A no-op cannot cause a bigger one. > > > > >?The experience around the world so far is that the economies of those > countries which managed to suppress the infection rate best are recovering > faster. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > Ja, so we hear. > > > > Of course, there is an unstated caveat on the data in at least one > country, where deaths with covid are being mixed with deaths of covid. So > in that one country, the data is suspect. > > > > If we argue that China and North Korea managed to stop the virus, that > still doesn?t help us in the USA, because there is no level of government > with the level of power those outfits have. In the states, government > cannot get that power unless they declare martial law. This they have not > done. I suspect they will never do that in response to a disease. Martial > law was not designed for that purpose. > > > > If millions were dropping dead with or of covid every day, declaring > martial law is still is a dubious use of war powers act. > > > > That being said, the mortality rate with or of covid in the USA is > apparently dropping, but as a fun little exercise for internet search > jockeys, do go into Google or your favorite search engine and see for > yourself how difficult it is to find a graph of covid deaths per day in the > USA. > > > > It is possible to find individual states which will report fatalities per > day, but no source wants to collect all of it, combine it and report covid > fatalities per day in USA on a graph, because it requires combining a bunch > of datasets of unknown quality, which means a resulting combined dataset of > unknown quality. No one wants to put their name or their institution?s > name on that. The closest I have found is Our World in Data, which shows a > graph but carries a caveat: > > > > ?challenges in the attribution of the cause of death means that the number > of confirmed deaths may not be an accurate count of the true number of > deaths from COVID-19. > > > > It also puts a logarithmic scale on the vertical which obscures numbers > and covers uncertainties. > > > > Ok, cool we have the terms WITH and OF. I have heard our CDC saying they > counted the WITHs together with the OFs. Last week we heard the director > of our CDC testify in front of congress that in general the Withs are still > being counted with the Ofs, and there is an economic incentive to do so. > > > > This site introduces a third term FROM. > > > > https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/confirmed-covid-19-deaths-total-vs-daily > > > > I vaguely interpret FROM is equivalent to OF. FROM sounds more OFey than > it does WITHey. > > > > They offer that it may not be an accurate count, but there too, the title > of the graph kinda disagrees with the caveat, for the title of the graph > introduces yet another term: ?due to.? Their graph title is Daily vs total > confirmed deaths due to COVID-19. Then they explain in the subtitle the > count may not be accurate because of ?challenges in the attribution of the > cause of death.? > > > > Well OK. I agree that it is challenging. I do genealogy and I study > causes of death on death certificates. They don?t always know what slew > the prole. In any case, I feel better seeing that the data-jockeys > acknowledge this is a best guess. > > > > In any case, do search around the web, see if you can find a dataset of US > fatalities per day, either OF, WITH, FROM, DUE TO, VAGUELY RELATED, or > WAVING ACQUAINTANCES OF SOMEONE WHO HAD Covid-19. Please share it with me > if you find it. > > > > What I am looking for is a graph that looks like this, but for the USA: > > > > > > Now that I am inquiring, Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities > with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish > between the WITHs and the OFs? How? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 24850 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 04:54:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:54:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 04:59:29 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 21:59:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next satellite, was: RE: next county Message-ID: wrote: snip > Another fun aside: this accident coulda been a hell of a lot worse. It coulda fallen on some hapless prole. It would have reduced the shock of the satellite hitting the floor--slightly. :-) That's really some story, kind of thing to pass on to kids, especially how they recovered. I am reminded of the first day I was working at the Electro-Motive Division of GN, perhaps around 1974. The coordinate measuring machine (CMM) was in an air-conditioned room to the side of a machine bay which was perhaps 200 feet across. The first time I am in the room, one wall (a wide garage door installed upside down) rolls down and the roof rolls back. A gantry crane goes hoot-hoot and a 20,000 pound freshly machined engine block sails into the room. It was gently sat on the 22-foot long CMM table and I backed up to one of the walls as far as I could go. In a strained voice, I asked the guy who ran the CMM if they ever dropped one. He pointed to a divot in the 2-foot thick granite table about the size of a large dinner plate and said "Yep." The divot had been filled with some hard yellow patching compound and ground flat. Because there was only one, I figured they didn't drop engine blocks or traction motors very often. It was a strange place to work. The square mile shop was built in the late 1930s. The floor was wooden blocks set end grain up. This protected dropped parts from being damaged. Right outside the CMM room, there was a huge turntable where an engine block could be loaded and unloaded while a block was being machined. The third station held the machines that drilled out the cylinder bores and did the other machining. The CMM was there largely to be sure this machine was making engine blocks and not junk. I was there a few times a year over three years or so. Getting in or out to the CMM room I walked by the exhaust valve line. Never saw it running. I think it made a year's supply of valves in an hour or two. It was perhaps 100 feet long. It took segments of high-temperature steel and forged them into a valve shape, It then sheared off about 5-inch pieces of 5/8 inch rod, chucked both the valve end and the rod and friction welded them. The final step was to grind off the flash from the friction weld. The two-stroke engines used 4 valves per cylinder. The engines were made from 8 cylinders (which looked like a way oversized car engine up to 20 cylinder monsters that were mostly for marine use. The 20 cylinder version just barely fit on the CMM table. The engines were weldments rather than castings. I never got to the welding shop where they made 2 inch deep welds with 5/8th welding rod. People who talked about it usually referred to Dante's Inferno. There is plenty of data about these engines here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_645 And I could say more, for example about the 50kW CO2 laser they used to harden the inside of the cylinder bores. But this is enough for one day. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 05:44:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:44:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] next county > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? How? I found this site with some data, but it doesn?t say how or if it differentiates between the Withs and the Ofs: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries I notice their graphs are free of caveats and explanations of methods. Better than nothing I suppose: Stefan Lofven of Sweden was one who ignored the problem and hoped it would go away. It did: Sweden did almost nothing. How is Scott Morrison handling the crisis? Are Australian schools open now? Stathis, does the Australian government have the authority to make people stay home? If they don?t, what happens? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 35607 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28172 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 05:45:56 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2020 22:45:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Music Message-ID: Ben Zaiboc wrote: > snip > OK, that makes sense as far as singing (pitch) is concerned, but what about rhythm? I'd say that rhythm is fundamental to music, indispensable, whereas pitch is secondary and not even necessary. Drumming can stand alone, and is possibly more ancient than singing. Very likely. Chimps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. Bonobos drum as well. https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm Keith From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 06:31:51 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:31:51 +1000 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <005301d66ba5$aff2f740$0fd8e5c0$@rainier66.com> <006901d66bad$9da3cbc0$d8eb6340$@rainier66.com> <00ac01d66bb4$b300d5b0$19028110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Aug 2020 at 15:46, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] next county > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?Yes, but the point I was making is that EVEN IF it were in the > government?s power to order everyone back to life as usual it would not > have the desired effect if there was a real problem? Stathis > > > > > > Stathis, how does Australia count fatalities with, of, related to (etc) > Covid? Do they have a way to distinguish between the WITHs and the OFs? > How? > > I found this site with some data, but it doesn?t say how or if it > differentiates between the Withs and the Ofs: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries > > I notice their graphs are free of caveats and explanations of methods. > Better than nothing I suppose: > > > > > > Stefan Lofven of Sweden was one who ignored the problem and hoped it would > go away. It did: > > > > Sweden did almost nothing. > > How is Scott Morrison handling the crisis? Are Australian schools open > now? > > Stathis, does the Australian government have the authority to make people > stay home? If they don?t, what happens? > > spike > Unfortunately, Australia had almost eliminated the virus a couple of months ago, when it took off again in one state (Victoria), and now there are hundreds of cases a day. Everything was returning to normal with businesses, schools and so on but now the restrictions in Victoria are back, with fines for not wearing a mask or being more than 5km from your home without an excuse (such as being an essential worker). The other states have also closed their borders to stop Victorians travelling there. As far as I know, deaths are counted according to what the doctor puts on the death certificate. It is sometimes difficult without an autopsy to be sure what someone with multiple comorbidities has died of, but if COVID-19 is the final illness, that is what is put on the death certificate. If someone is hit by a car and they suffer from other conditions, they are more likely to die than a healthy person with the same injuries, but it is still the car that is said to have killed them. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image008.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26887 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 09:53:58 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:53:58 +0100 Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted Message-ID: Thousands of England's virus deaths 'to be wiped off records due to counting mishap' Quote: Public Health England currently counts all deaths of people who have tested positive for Covid-19, meaning up to 10 per cent of those recorded could be wrong By Ryan Merrifield 06:48, 6 AUG 2020 Public Health England currently includes all fatalities of anyone who has tested positive for Covid-19, regardless of whether their death is related to the disease. Scientists noticed the error as early as July, leading to an urgent review, with some deaths on the official count happening months after someone was infected. The mishap means all of England's 265,000 confirmed cases would in time be included on the toll, regardless of the circumstances around someone's death. The numbers will be reconfigured so deaths are only counted if a person dies within 28 days of testing positive - like in Scotland and Northern Ireland. -------------------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 13:40:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 06:40:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003001d66bf7$3748cb60$a5da6220$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] England Covid deaths miscounted Thousands of England's virus deaths 'to be wiped off records due to counting mishap' https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thousands-englands-virus-deaths-to-224 77213 Quote: Public Health England currently counts all deaths of people who have tested positive for Covid-19, meaning up to 10 per cent of those recorded could be wrong By Ryan Merrifield 06:48, 6 AUG 2020 Public Health England currently includes all fatalities of anyone who has tested positive for Covid-19, regardless of whether their death is related to the disease. Scientists noticed the error as early as July, leading to an urgent review, with some deaths on the official count happening months after someone was infected. The mishap means all of England's 265,000 confirmed cases would in time be included on the toll, regardless of the circumstances around someone's death. The numbers will be reconfigured so deaths are only counted if a person dies within 28 days of testing positive - like in Scotland and Northern Ireland. -------------------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK. Hmmm, 10%, that's the first time I have seen either a limit or an estimate on that number. In the USA, they acknowledge they count positive tests as covid deaths, with no 28 day limit. Over time, the count of those who were infected and recovered accumulates, particularly the aged, who we know this hits really hard. The Mirror article calls it a "mistake" and a "mishap" but they aren't treating it as either of those here, and are apparently still doing it at least in some counties in California. Next thing we need to know is how Sweden did it. UK and USA counted the Withs with the Ofs. UK is planning to stop, USA is not. Sweden never shut down anything, their numbers went down to nothing. What we don't know is if they are counting their Withs with their Nots. The Ofs are hard to prove, and the Withs are easy to determine: nearly everyone has a With to go along with their covid. So how does it work? I have occasional erectile dysfunction, which one might suppose could be fatal if one shoots oneself over it or perishes of an overdoses of Viagra (don't worry, I wont) and mighta had covid last winter (if so, I still have the antibodies.) If I perish of embarrassment in the USA, I test positive, died With covid and get counted. If I die of actual covid while touring the ABBA museum in Sweden, I died of embarrassment and don't count? Let's take that 10% number for a minute. If it is true, then we don't care really: the numbers are accurate enough for what we are doing. But how do we know the delta is 10%? If that number is true, it brings up another scary possibility: the USA and most other countries wrecked their economies by shutting stuff down, but are still having covid fatalities. Sweden didn't and they don't. They have an attitude there: we are Sweden, home of the mighty Vikings, way the hell up here where winters are brutal, people are indoors a coupla months every year, we have an international airport bringing in everything, diseased proles from everywhere on the planet come to devour the meatballs and see the ABBA museum, we have a lotta flu up here, we deal with it, for we are SWEDISH, dammit! The flu doesn't stop our Volvo factory! Their problem was big in April and May, but isn't now. If that 10% number is right, we need to rethink our approach. Anders or any Swedes present? Or anyone here up to speed on this? Vacationed there recently? Volvo drivers? ABBA fans? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:14:27 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:14:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a > crisis. If businesses die, we die. It isn?t just in capitalist America, > it is everywhere. It really isn?t an opportunity to transform anything, or > if so, the transformer?s fondest wish would be to transform it to back the > way it was before they seized the opportunity. It really is a crisis only. > I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future as a result. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:32:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:32:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf > of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own > research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other > fields is ludicrous.* I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own research and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally reproduce every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an astronomer's 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to determine the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an astronomer reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different fields how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm thinking of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about 20 million; and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who are mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and that vitamin C could cure just about everything. If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. So if the consensus of the entire scientific community is that COVID-19 is killing thousands of Americans a day, and it is, then it is logical for me to conclude that what they're saying is true, or at least closer to the truth than what anybody else is saying. >* I must conclude that **Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining on > matters not astrophysical in nature, **is an elitist snob and idealogical > stooge of the left.* And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges of the right. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:34:52 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 10:34:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880$a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 10:16 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity > we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to > do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote > work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the > disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is > making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end > result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future > as a result. > I don't have much else to add, but needed to reply to "+1" this sentiment. I wish people could stop trying to "go back to work" and figure out how we can "go forward to work" - but as succinct as it seems, inertia is very difficult to overcome. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 14:42:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 09:42:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges of the right. John K Clark Right on, Daddio, as someone used to say. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:34 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > > *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak >> on behalf of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay >> in their own research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions >> in other fields is ludicrous.* > > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own > research and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally > reproduce every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they > say is probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an > astronomer's 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes > to determine the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine > an astronomer reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to > determine the expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. > > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different > fields how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm > thinking of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they > got it all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only > about 20 million; and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists > they got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who > are mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. > > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. So if the > consensus of the entire scientific community is that COVID-19 is killing > thousands of Americans a day, and it is, then it is logical for me to > conclude that what they're saying is true, or at least closer to the truth > than what anybody else is saying. > > >* I must conclude that **Siegal, aside from the hypocrisy of opining >> on matters not astrophysical in nature, **is an elitist snob and >> idealogical stooge of the left.* > > > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 15:02:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:02:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] next county In-Reply-To: References: <002101d66a1c$44c46b00$ce4d4100$@rainier66.com> <006201d66a61$036040e0$0a20c2a0$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d66a74$0f7b7cb0$2e727610$@rainier66.com> <013501d66a7f$7c489250$74d9b6f0$@rainier66.com> <00a301d66aa1$d0f6c340$72e449c0$@rainier66.com> <00d301d66aa7$fa9108e0$efb31aa0$@rainier66.com> <006201d66b6a$e222b880 $a6682980$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008301d66c02$a4dc6550$ee952ff0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] next county On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 4:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: But please keep this in mind: the shutdown isn?t an opportunity, it is a crisis? >?I disagree that the pandemic isn't an opportunity. It's not an opportunity we wanted, but it's here nonetheless. We're finding new and better ways to do things that we previously lacked the motivation to do: like remote work/learning and virtual meetings. This may be a crisis to people in the disrupted fields but nobody is insured against change. The pandemic is making some things change faster than they would otherwise but the end result is that we'll be doing things more efficiently/safely in the future as a result. -Dave Ja, so we hear. I have been trying to see it that way, but it takes effort, and must be done very carefully. From the point of view of those who do not like those changes, it sounds like we celebrate death. I will freely confess the online learning has been great for my family. It has forced colleges to offer the option of online classes, which is great from the point of view of those who would otherwise need to pay for on-campus learning or who would like to attend somewhere like Berkeley but do not consider it safe to go to the campus. Berkeley offers a great education for a good price, but you might get killed there by some drug-addled anarchist. So? OK, take the classes online, get great credentials with the California taxpayer subsidizing most of the tuition, stay home, stay safe. Such a deal! >From the point of view of those who cannot effectively use online learning, or who crave social contact, the online learning is a still darker lining to a dark cloud, a double tragedy. The covid quarantine compelled Berkeley to go down that road of online learning, however? I never want to make it sound like a silver lining to a dark cloud. It is a consequence of a tragedy which? well? does benefit some people. Eh? it?s a paradox. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 15:12:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:12:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 10:47 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. > *Right on, Daddio, as someone used to say. bill w* > > Don't be a square, make love not war. By the way I just ran across an interesting statistic, during the past month 1.9 million Americans have tested positive for COVID-19, that's *OVER FIVE TIMES* as much as *ALL* of Europe and Australia and Canada and South Korea and Japan *COMBINED*! Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny bit wrong. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 15:28:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 08:28:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny bit wrong. John K Clark Ja. Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance: Oh wait, we already are. There are four counties up in northern California who never did shut down much of the businesses. Those four counties have had a few hundred cases, but never had a covid fatality. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 16575 bytes Desc: not available URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 16:32:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:32:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance* Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries. Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 18:36:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:36:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. What do you think? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 18:39:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:39:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <00af01d66c06$3bfabce0$b3f036a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Do your own research On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance >?Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries? Or just compare them against each other. Sweden is the world?s mine canary, having never shut stuff down. >? Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. John K Clark OK. Sweden was doing something seriously wrong in March and April, but in May, June, July and August, things went well for them: Sweden is doing better than New York and Texas with their aggressive shutdowns, and way better than California with its mixed approach. Looking up there at Sweden, who didn?t ever go the shutdown route, we next might need to look at business failure rates, suicide rates and school scores to figure out the cost in human lives of a shutdown. Given Sweden somehow managed to bring this to the ground without a shutdown, could this be what herd immunity looks like? What if? these Nordic countries just have a higher natural resistance to flu? If so, that would make sense: they are cooped up indoors for a long time in the winter, they go outside a lot in the summer, we have good indications the risk of outdoor transmission is comparatively low because the political rallies, rock concerts and protest riots didn?t show a lot of transmission. So? is that Sweden signal indicating Stefan was right and that eventually herd immunity is the way? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 31146 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image004.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 23972 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 6 18:56:27 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:56:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. -Henry > On Aug 6, 2020, at 2:37 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 18:58:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] for Henry Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. What do you think? bill w BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, high openness. Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both. Here in California we are constantly urged to wear masks, and I see nearly half the proles doing so, outdoors. Indoors at a business it is required: the store owner can throw one?s ass out for not doing it. So that one doesn?t really count. But I have seen extremists, still see them: wearing a mask while driving alone. That should be discouraged methinks: the increase in CO2 while driving is a bad thing. Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that isn?t what that is either. Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. Do reframe your Hexaco question please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 6 19:12:44 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:12:44 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32a1f6eb-c480-7ef2-3e3a-72356bd86e39@zaiboc.net> On 06/08/2020 07:33, Keith Henson wrote: > himps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the > common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. > Bonobos drum as well. > https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm > > Keith Aha. So some chimps, at least, appear to have a similar sense of rhythm to us. It would be interesting to try and trace that to wherever it comes from. An earlier, pre-speech, brain mutation, presumably. If and when we master uploading, and can tinker with detailed models of brains from the inside, perhaps we'll be able to find out exactly what it's all about. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 6 19:17:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:17:22 +0100 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 203, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1084567b-24a3-de45-1c9b-d6f74f805161@zaiboc.net> On 06/08/2020 07:33, Keith Henson wrote: > himps drum on trees. If humans got rhythm from the > common ancestor, it dates back around 7 million years ago at least. > Bonobos drum as well. > https://www.natureworldnews.com/articles/18410/20151125/bonobos-ability-synchronize-human-drummer-sheds-light-speech-music-evolution.htm > > Keith Aha. So some chimps, at least, appear to have a similar sense of rhythm to us. It would be interesting to try and trace that to wherever it comes from. An earlier, pre-speech, brain mutation. If and when we have mastered uploading, and can tinker with detailed models of brains from the inside, perhaps we'll be able to find out exactly where it comes from. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 19:24:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:24:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001001d66c27$3a9c6260$afd52720$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] for Henry >?From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both?spike This way, we can all accuse each other of being anti-science for not accepting the scientific consensus. On masks outdoors, there are three general camps or schools of thought on the efficacy of outdoor masks. I call them the Yes School, the No School and the We Don?t Know School. All three of these have internal consensus, for they generally agree with themselves. So regardless of one?s views, you still generally reject the scientific consensus of the other two camps. It is possible to be in two schools of thought, so long as one of them is the We Don?t Know group. I believe that outdoor masks are bad, because they encourage proles to come closer for intercourse, since the mask prevents reading lips. I would think removing the mask enables reading lips from a greater distance during intercourse, and distancing is more effective than a mask. So? be safe: lose the mask, enjoy intercourse from a respectful 4 meters rather than 2, everyone stays safer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:31:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:31:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that isn?t what that is either. Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. Do reframe your Hexaco question please. spike In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, so you are right that people come that way for the most part. What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] for Henry > > > > Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by > Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside > from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be > shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others > in the group might like: > > > > "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from > the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a > natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of > consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special > joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality > partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." > > > > Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask > and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. > > > > What do you think? > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide > into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra > students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. > > > > I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, > high openness. > > > > Regarding masks: that one is complicated by a wide variation in how much > people believe they are effective outdoors. I have never convinced myself > that they are a bit effective outside. Staying back is way better. With > that model, not wearing a mask is a safety thing: the other proles see you > not wearing one and they stay farther back, which protects both. > > > > Here in California we are constantly urged to wear masks, and I see nearly > half the proles doing so, outdoors. Indoors at a business it is required: > the store owner can throw one?s ass out for not doing it. So that one > doesn?t really count. But I have seen extremists, still see them: wearing > a mask while driving alone. That should be discouraged methinks: the > increase in CO2 while driving is a bad thing. > > > > Refusing to wear a mask outdoors should not be equated with lack of > consideration for others, for that isn?t what it is. Wearing a mask > indoors should not be equated with consideration for others, because that > isn?t what that is either. > > > > Nonconformity isn?t entirely voluntary. Some people really are just weird. > > > > Do reframe your Hexaco question please. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:36:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:36:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid predictions Message-ID: Scroll down in the link bill w https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwJXLfpcSJscFfzBfRxtFBhdKDr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 19:42:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:42:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >? >?Do reframe your Hexaco question please? spike >?In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, so you are right that people come that way for the most part. What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w In the context of wearing a mask, much is lost. Outdoors, there is a wide disparity on opinion regarding their efficacy, so the choice isn?t really indicative of attitude regarding consideration of others. Indoors it is required (the shop owner can (and probably will) hurl you out if you refuse to wear it) so that doesn?t indicate considerations for others either. What can we use as a measurable and visible proxy for consideration for others? How about? participation in charity food drives and such as that? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 19:55:41 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 12:55:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:09 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 11:36 AM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: William Flynn Wallace > Subject: [ExI] for Henry > > Are you familiar with the new, to me, H factor? I have a book here by Kibeom Lee and Michael Ashton that discusses the Hexaco inventory. Aside from associating shyness with introversion (only high N introverts may be shy and that's a minority) it's pretty good. Here is a sample that others in the group might like: > > "People who are low in H (humility/honesty) and high in O (openness - from the Big Five) are aggressively nonconformist. Their high O results in a natural inclination to be unconventional; their low H in a lack of consideration for other people. The result is a person who takes a special joy in offending community standards and who defies conventional morality partly in order to gain a reputation for being radical." > > Such a person would seem to characterize someone who would not wear a mask and perhaps be in the antiscience crowd. > > What do you think? > > bill w > > > > BillW, set up two axes, H on the vertical, O on the horizontal, divide into four quadrants, number them in the usual way familiar to algebra students. You described quad 2 with low H and high O. > > I claim to be out on the far corner of quad 1: high humility and honesty, high openness. Is self-assessment always reliable in evaluating any of these traits? (Not saying you?re wrong, but one has to be careful about self-assessments, no?) Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:19:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:19:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> <002701d66c29$b1402bc0$13c08340$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If one were so inclined, they could Google reasons polls as to why a person does or does not wear a mask. That would give us some answers that are not assumptions. I repeat: even if it is not required, I'd wear a mask, and my reason is to protect other people just in case I am asymptomatic. As to measuring consideration for others, there already exist personality scales to measure that. Giving a can of beans would have to be accompanied by other such charity work to establish the reliability of the reasons. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:45 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *>?* > > >?Do reframe your Hexaco question please? spike > > > > >?In my case, I do wear one indoors partly as a consideration for others > - and also here it is required. I would do so even if not required. As it > seems that it is not about prevention for oneself but about protecting > others, that is my reason. So, a bit of disagreement here. Unless there > is a crowd, wearing one outdoors is unnecessary in my opinion. > > > > All personality factors under discussion are mostly, up to 2/3s, genetic, > so you are right that people come that way for the most part. > > > > What question do you want me to rephrase? bill w > > > > > > > > > > In the context of wearing a mask, much is lost. Outdoors, there is a wide > disparity on opinion regarding their efficacy, so the choice isn?t really > indicative of attitude regarding consideration of others. Indoors it is > required (the shop owner can (and probably will) hurl you out if you refuse > to wear it) so that doesn?t indicate considerations for others either. > > > > What can we use as a measurable and visible proxy for consideration for > others? How about? participation in charity food drives and such as that? > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 20:37:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:37:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. Regards, Dan Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. Where I live, outdoor masks are about half, possibly not quite half are wearing them. The governor demands it, but there is no legal requirement. Inside a shop or business, the business owner demands it (to keep her doors open) and she does have the authority to throw you out, so you wear it, regardless of your attitudes on conformity or compliance with the governor?s wishes. Dan I have some observations for you from my travels. In Mount Rainier National Park, that is federal property, so you can be arrested for marijuana there (illegal at the federal level) but not for refusing to wear a mask (congress never passed a law requiring them.) The trailheads demand masks, but don?t actually claim it is a legal requirement (it isn?t.). They just say ?Masks required.? Around half wear them there while hiking, possibly slightly more than half. I had a pleasant visit with a Mt. Rainier ranger, who is a federal employee. He wore a mask, I did not. We talked about a bear I spotted, the trail condition, the snow, for perhaps 10 minutes. He never did say a word about masks, but kept his on the whole time. We never came within about 3 meters of each other. On the way back, we were camping at a state park in Oregon. We were sitting at our campsite, park ranger came by on foot, she was wearing a mask, we were not. We visited for several minutes, she never mentioned masks. On that trip, one of my father-in-law?s neighbors expressed surprise we were able to come up there at all. They assumed it was illegal to travel with stay at home orders. Well, OK sure those exist in California. Had a Cal State trooper pulled me over on the way out and explained there was a stay-at-home order, I would point out the obvious: We are at home. That camper is my temporary home back there. What is she going to say? We weren?t breaking any laws. A camper is a completely self-contained unit. It has a refrigerator and a freezer (both cram full of food) and every cavity we could find in that camper was stuffed with food. The only thing we ran outta (twice) is water, but we stayed in commercial campgrounds and I refilled, so on we go. We never had to go to any stores in nearly 3 weeks, we were socially-distanced the whole time, other than passing people on the hiking trails. But there are exactly zero known or even plausibly suspected cases of transmission outdoors on hiking trails. So? no surprise we never caught anything that way. Very little of this has anything to do with conformity or otherwise that I can see. It has a lot to do with how much one thinks covid can jump from one person to another outdoors. That number is apparently low, which is why we didn?t see big outbreaks after the rallies and riots, where people were packed closely and most did not wear masks. Conclusion: mask wearing outdoors is not political or an indication of conformity, and they generally are not necessary or even advisable. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:47:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:47:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> References: <01c601d66c23$a5054710$ef0fd530$@rainier66.com> <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I conjecture that even when the conditions are reported as calm, there is a bit of air movement. That would make it more difficult for airborne germs to affect people. bill w On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 3:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > > > >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity > would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other > words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and > mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, > back in say early June, as going against the grain. > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. > Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories > you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also > naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely > populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to > masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. > > > > Where I live, outdoor masks are about half, possibly not quite half are > wearing them. The governor demands it, but there is no legal requirement. > Inside a shop or business, the business owner demands it (to keep her doors > open) and she does have the authority to throw you out, so you wear it, > regardless of your attitudes on conformity or compliance with the > governor?s wishes. > > > > Dan I have some observations for you from my travels. In Mount Rainier > National Park, that is federal property, so you can be arrested for > marijuana there (illegal at the federal level) but not for refusing to wear > a mask (congress never passed a law requiring them.) The trailheads demand > masks, but don?t actually claim it is a legal requirement (it isn?t.). > They just say ?Masks required.? Around half wear them there while hiking, > possibly slightly more than half. > > > > I had a pleasant visit with a Mt. Rainier ranger, who is a federal > employee. He wore a mask, I did not. We talked about a bear I spotted, > the trail condition, the snow, for perhaps 10 minutes. He never did say a > word about masks, but kept his on the whole time. We never came within > about 3 meters of each other. > > > > On the way back, we were camping at a state park in Oregon. We were > sitting at our campsite, park ranger came by on foot, she was wearing a > mask, we were not. We visited for several minutes, she never mentioned > masks. > > > > On that trip, one of my father-in-law?s neighbors expressed surprise we > were able to come up there at all. They assumed it was illegal to travel > with stay at home orders. Well, OK sure those exist in California. Had a > Cal State trooper pulled me over on the way out and explained there was a > stay-at-home order, I would point out the obvious: We are at home. That > camper is my temporary home back there. > > > > What is she going to say? We weren?t breaking any laws. > > > > A camper is a completely self-contained unit. It has a refrigerator and a > freezer (both cram full of food) and every cavity we could find in that > camper was stuffed with food. The only thing we ran outta (twice) is > water, but we stayed in commercial campgrounds and I refilled, so on we > go. We never had to go to any stores in nearly 3 weeks, we were > socially-distanced the whole time, other than passing people on the hiking > trails. But there are exactly zero known or even plausibly suspected cases > of transmission outdoors on hiking trails. So? no surprise we never caught > anything that way. > > > > Very little of this has anything to do with conformity or otherwise that I > can see. It has a lot to do with how much one thinks covid can jump from > one person to another outdoors. That number is apparently low, which is > why we didn?t see big outbreaks after the rallies and riots, where people > were packed closely and most did not wear masks. > > > > Conclusion: mask wearing outdoors is not political or an indication of > conformity, and they generally are not necessary or even advisable. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 20:51:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:51:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> On Aug 6, 2020, at 1:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > > > >?Non-conformity is context dependent, no? So with masks, non-conformity would have to be judged on the basis of the social context, no? In other words, let?s say I live in a small rural community that is solid red and mainly populated by White evangelicals. Wearing a mask would be seen there, back in say early June, as going against the grain. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > Dan it really doesn?t break out that way. Everything isn?t politics. Everywhere is a mixture. There is a general trend toward those categories you mentioned in rural communities, however those communities are also naturally more socially distanced, because they are less densely populated. Places which are less densely populated have less access to masks and less need for them, regardless of their political persuasion. My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 21:09:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 14:09:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> References: <00bb01d66c31$573e8240$05bb86c0$@rainier66.com> <0C83E29E-BA3D-47B9-982C-EECD669174E7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. Regards, Dan Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, outside an old John Wayne movie. OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from me. Damn. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 6 20:07:08 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 13:07:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid predictions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-06 12:36, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Scroll down in the link? ? ?bill w > https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#inbox/FMfcgxwJXLfpcSJscFfzBfRxtFBhdKDr Maybe you can, but I cannot. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 6 22:10:41 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 18:10:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> References: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I?ll just say at this point, What a weird thread to have associated with my name. Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list. A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:10 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan > > >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. > > Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. > > So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. > > Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, outside an old John Wayne movie. > > OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. > > However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from me. Damn. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 22:43:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 15:43:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry Message-ID: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry I?ll just say at this point, >?What a weird thread to have associated with my name? Nah, this wouldn?t even make it to the semi-finals compared to some threads we have had here. I used to think I was the weirdest person ever, but once I came to California, I realized I would be struggling before I even made it to the state-level championships. I went down to Santa Cruz, got so discouraged I don?t even bother competing in weirdness contests anymore. >?Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list? The unpredictability of it all has kept me interested for over a quarter of a century. >?A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry Henry, don?t eeeeeeven bother trying to measure up to your old Uncle Spike in humility. I would beat you so bad, you would be humiliated and beat me. Since you are looking for words, consider this one Henry: Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 23:22:52 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 18:22:52 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <00dd01d66c35$e57d02d0$b0770870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Well, Henry, since you have not encountered this variable before, I suggest you buy the book. I'd love to get your reactions to it. The H scale is in the appendix. One problem with it: I can't tell the actual data from theoretical predictions (and I am going to write then about that, as well as the correlation between H and Conscientiousness). bill w https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=h+factor+psychology&ref=nb_sb_noss On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:12 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?ll just say at this point, > What a weird thread to have associated with my name. > > Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this > list. > > A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a > protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid > construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes > selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. > I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. > > -Henry > > On Aug 6, 2020, at 5:10 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Dan > > > > >?My hypothetical example wasn?t meant as me saying everything is > political (though I believe just about anything can be politicized). It was > meant to illustrate how non-conformity is contextual. Imagine a straight > thirty year old male wearing a frilly dress. Is that non-conformity in > action? Well, not if he?s doing the Mount Saint Helens Mother?s Day Hike. > He probably is non-conforming, though, if he wears it to the Fourth of July > picnic and he?s the only male there doing that. > > > > Regards, > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > Oh OK cool got it, thanks Dan. > > > > Regarding wearing frilly dresses and such, I am the most conformist person > you will ever meet. Well, sorta. I found a source where I could get > military surplus wool field trousers manufactured for army guys in 1951. > It?s in my favorite color: olive drab. > > > > So I bought a dozen pairs of them and discovered I could actually wear > something without modification directly off the shelf because of my oddball > size (28 inch waist, 35 length). I just donated the last of every other > pair of trousers I own. So now my trousers are all nearly 70 yrs old. > > > > Now that I think about it however? that isn?t conformist either really. I > am the only person I have ever seen wearing such absurdly retro garb, > outside an old John Wayne movie. > > > > OK then. I guess I hafta face the facts: I am just weird. > > > > However, BillW?s Hex scale should have a B factor. I would totally > dominate that, for I am the most boring person in the world. Or rather I > thought so, until I started bragging it up and several other fellers > proposed a boring competition. I was winning, going for the world record > in boring, but as soon as I achieved that, I was the world record holder > which is interesting and they took my trophy from me and my record from > me. Damn. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 6 23:39:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 16:39:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? Message-ID: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Such a grim topic it is, that huge explosion in Beirut. When I was in engineering school, we had a compressible flow class where they had us do all these calculations on blast radius, overpressure threshold, shock wave mechanics and so forth. The cold war was still going in those days, so they thought it was a good thing for us to know about. My compressible-flow book went into a lotta gory detail on what happens behind a shock wave and how to figure out what it was that exploded based on the velocity of the shock wave (which isn?t the same as a leading-edge sound wave (because the shock wave travels in a compressed medium and sound waves do not (so the shock wave gets to ya first (and hurts a lot worse.)))) If we go with a cell-phone frame rate of about 30 per second, and estimate the shock wave was advancing at about 100 meters between frames, that is a shock wave velocity indicating ammonium nitrate, which supports the theory that it was a coupla thousand tons of fertilizer on a parked ship, possibly three thousand tons. Oy vey mercy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:36:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:36:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for sharing. Based on who would gain (or not) in such a tragedy, I had assumed the ammonium nitrate claim was likely accurate. An attack from any obvious players doesn't seem in anyone's interest. I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case. On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 7:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Such a grim topic it is, that huge explosion in Beirut. > > > > When I was in engineering school, we had a compressible flow class where > they had us do all these calculations on blast radius, overpressure > threshold, shock wave mechanics and so forth. The cold war was still going > in those days, so they thought it was a good thing for us to know about. > > > > My compressible-flow book went into a lotta gory detail on what happens > behind a shock wave and how to figure out what it was that exploded based > on the velocity of the shock wave (which isn?t the same as a leading-edge > sound wave (because the shock wave travels in a compressed medium and sound > waves do not (so the shock wave gets to ya first (and hurts a lot worse.)))) > > > > If we go with a cell-phone frame rate of about 30 per second, and estimate > the shock wave was advancing at about 100 meters between frames, that is a > shock wave velocity indicating ammonium nitrate, which supports the theory > that it was a coupla thousand tons of fertilizer on a parked ship, possibly > three thousand tons. Oy vey mercy. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 7 00:44:50 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 17:44:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research Message-ID: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on behalf >> of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own >> research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other >> fields is ludicrous.* > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own research > and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally reproduce > every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is > probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an astronomer's > 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to determine > the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an astronomer > reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the > expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. I agree that it is silly to expect microbiologists to reproduce results from astronomers or vice versa. But that's not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is if a microbiologist wants to buy a telescope, look at the sky with it, form opinions, ask questions, and use the scientific method to answer them, then she is within her rights to do so. Same if an astronomer wants to buy a microscope and study paramecium. Doing so does not suddenly make them an expert in the other's field, but it can still legitimately be called science. So is a layperson buying scientific instruments and tinkering around in his garage. That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in science. According to 2/3 of the researchers surveyed by Nature, irreproducibility of published results are a huge problem in science, these days: https://www.nature.com/collections/prbfkwmwvz/ > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different fields > how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm thinking > of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it > all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about > 20 million; And the history of so-called laypeople simply following their curiosity and exploring natural phenomena that interested them is full of resounding successes. Successes like Einstein who became a great physicist, but not until after he discovered special relativity as a patent clerk. Or Gregor Mendel who was a monk when he discovered genes. Or Erasto Mpemba who was a 13 year old school boy in Tanzania when he discovered the Mpemba effect. Lay people are capable of making important contributions to science. To say otherwise is elitist gate-keeping. > and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they > got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who are > mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. Hoyle and Kelvin were wrong, but so what? And to his credit, Linus Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did not help him, then his mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm him. Come to think of it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks being taken around these parts, he probably would have fit right in on this here list. > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. The advantage that professional scientists has over amateurs by virtue of "years of experience" is countered by the high-stakes publish-or-perish environment that the scientist lives under which incentivises the manipulation and misinterpretation of results which in turn leads to irreproducibility. > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > stooges of the right. Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other sciences routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear power) and immunology (vaccinations). Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 00:51:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 17:51:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? Dylan Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a really small nuke. Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of bombing Beirut. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 00:58:59 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:58:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: +100. Very well said. Apologies that I have nothing further to add. On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:46 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: > > > > > On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 7:58 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> *Being an astrophysicist does not entitle Ethan Siegel to speak on > behalf > >> of all scientists. The notion that scientists should stay in their own > >> research lanes and not pursue questions or develop opinions in other > >> fields is ludicrous.* > > > > I'll tell you what's ludicrous, the idea that you must do your own > research > > and every reader of the journal Nature or Science must personally > reproduce > > every experiment in them before he can conclude that what they say is > > probably true. Can you imagine a microbiologist reproducing an > astronomer's > > 10 year research project using the world's largest telescopes to > determine > > the distribution of galaxies in the universe? Can you imagine an > astronomer > > reproducing a microbiologist's 10 year research program to determine the > > expression of genes in a paramecium? I can't either. > > I agree that it is silly to expect microbiologists to reproduce > results from astronomers or vice versa. But that's not what I am > talking about. What I am talking about is if a microbiologist wants to > buy a telescope, look at the sky with it, form opinions, ask > questions, and use the scientific method to answer them, then she is > within her rights to do so. Same if an astronomer wants to buy a > microscope and study paramecium. Doing so does not suddenly make them > an expert in the other's field, but it can still legitimately be > called science. So is a layperson buying scientific instruments and > tinkering around in his garage. > > That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in > science. According to 2/3 of the researchers surveyed by Nature, > irreproducibility of published results are a huge problem in science, > these days: > > https://www.nature.com/collections/prbfkwmwvz/ > > > > The history of scientists telling other scientists in very different > fields > > how they should do their job is full of humiliating failures. I'm > thinking > > of the eminent physicist lord Kelvin who told geologists that they got it > > all wrong and that the Earth was not billions of years old but only about > > 20 million; > > And the history of so-called laypeople simply following their > curiosity and exploring natural phenomena that interested them is full > of resounding successes. Successes like Einstein who became a great > physicist, but not until after he discovered special relativity as a > patent clerk. Or Gregor Mendel who was a monk when he discovered > genes. Or Erasto Mpemba who was a 13 year old school boy in Tanzania > when he discovered the Mpemba effect. Lay people are capable of making > important contributions to science. To say otherwise is elitist > gate-keeping. > > > and the eminent astronomer Fred Hoyle who told biologists they > > got it all wrong and Darwinian evolution can't work and said those who > are > > mathematical geniuses got that way because they received mathematical > > genius genes from viruses which came from outer space; and the eminent > > physical chemist Linus Pauling who told doctors they got it all wrong and > > that vitamin C could cure just about everything. > > Hoyle and Kelvin were wrong, but so what? And to his credit, Linus > Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did not help him, then his > mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm him. Come to think of > it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks being taken around > these parts, he probably would have fit right in on this here list. > > > If you're an expert in one field of science you must realize that it took > > you many years to obtain the necessary knowledge and skills to reach that > > level, and if you're not only smart but also wise you'll know that there > > are fields of science other than your own and conclude that experts in > > those fields may know more about them than you do. This is even more true > > if you're a civilian and not an expert in ANY field of science. > > The advantage that professional scientists has over amateurs by virtue > of "years of experience" is countered by the high-stakes > publish-or-perish environment that the scientist lives under which > incentivises the manipulation and misinterpretation of results which > in turn leads to irreproducibility. > > > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological > > stooges of the right. > > Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like > sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other > sciences routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear > power) and immunology (vaccinations). > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 01:25:08 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:25:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks. Again, I'm out of my element, and will defer to the EXPERTS on this one! On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > > > >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have > been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud > and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? > Dylan > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. > > > > There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a > yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. > From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the > color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a > really small nuke. > > > > Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some > bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of > bombing Beirut. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 01:33:29 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:33:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> References: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Did you see this 2 weeks ago, written by 25 SWEDISH DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS? https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/21/coronavirus-swedish-herd-immunity-drove-up-death-toll-column/5472100002/ ?Sweden has a death toll greater than the United States: 564 deaths per million inhabitants compared with 444, as of July 27.? I haven?t looked up where we are today. >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 2:44 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > > > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] Do your own research > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > >Perhaps we should be looking to Sweden for guidance > > >?Perhaps Sweden is not the best example if we're looking for pandemic wisdom, maybe we could get better guidance by observing the other Scandinavian countries? > > Or just compare them against each other. Sweden is the world?s mine canary, having never shut stuff down. > > >? Denmark has had 619 deaths from COVID-19, Finland has had 331, Norway has had 256, but Sweden has had 5,766. > > John K Clark > > > OK. Sweden was doing something seriously wrong in March and April, but in May, June, July and August, things went well for them: > > > > > > Sweden is doing better than New York and Texas with their aggressive shutdowns, and way better than California with its mixed approach. > > Looking up there at Sweden, who didn?t ever go the shutdown route, we next might need to look at business failure rates, suicide rates and school scores to figure out the cost in human lives of a shutdown. > > Given Sweden somehow managed to bring this to the ground without a shutdown, could this be what herd immunity looks like? What if? these Nordic countries just have a higher natural resistance to flu? If so, that would make sense: they are cooped up indoors for a long time in the winter, they go outside a lot in the summer, we have good indications the risk of outdoor transmission is comparatively low because the political rallies, rock concerts and protest riots didn?t show a lot of transmission. > > So? is that Sweden signal indicating Stefan was right and that eventually herd immunity is the way? > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 01:49:57 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 21:49:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> References: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. > Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? That?s a tough one. How about... Serenity. Or peacefulness? Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. >> On Aug 6, 2020, at 6:43 PM, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > ? > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry > > I?ll just say at this point, > > >?What a weird thread to have associated with my name? > > Nah, this wouldn?t even make it to the semi-finals compared to some threads we have had here. > > I used to think I was the weirdest person ever, but once I came to California, I realized I would be struggling before I even made it to the state-level championships. I went down to Santa Cruz, got so discouraged I don?t even bother competing in weirdness contests anymore. > > >?Masks, frilly dresses, hiking, bears. Just another reason I love this list? > > The unpredictability of it all has kept me interested for over a quarter of a century. > > >?A psychology lab could come up with, if it doesn?t already exist, a protocol to measure ?consideration for others? if that is a valid construct. Sounds to me like Conscientious in part. And it opposes selfishness but is not quite selflessness. It?s not quite altruism either. I?m not sure how humility would be measured btw. -Henry > > Henry, don?t eeeeeeven bother trying to measure up to your old Uncle Spike in humility. I would beat you so bad, you would be humiliated and beat me. > > Since you are looking for words, consider this one Henry: Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? what? > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 02:15:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 19:15:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <012a01d66c42$f466d6b0$dd348410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> From: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry >?.That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. Sure, but what is the most priceless thing? I am pretty sure if we set up some kind of contest or competition, I can come up with several pricelesser things than that, without even trying. I heard of something they said was priceless: those paintings on the ceiling of that Sixteen Chapel. No way Jose! We could get those babies down, frame in a nice lacquered cherrywood, we could fetch a decent price out of em, thousands of bucks I bet. >>?Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? >?That?s a tough one. How about... >?Serenity. >?Or peacefulness? >?Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. OK cool thanks Henry. I like your serenity answer. I will offer one that I consider the closest to negative anger: gratitude. I am a person filled with gratitude for how my life has turned out, how our world turned out, because I can so easily imagine so many ways things coulda gone so much more wrong. Aside: I am regularly online with distant cousins who lived their lives (most of them) near where I was born. It is economically blighted today. The hospital where I was born went out of business a coupla months ago. A few covid patients were their only customers, the rest choosing to stay home and have their strokes and heart attacks treated by amateurs rather than risking catching something bad at the local hospital. I got a notice on our family forum: if I want any of my medical records, apply for them now because they would be archived to where they weren?t necessarily accessible, not easily in any case. A bunch of us were talking about it and deciding what to do. I decided to let it go: I have a copy of my birth certificate. I don?t care about the rest of it, if there is any. As I kicked all this around, I realized how different my life is from my own cousins, many of whom are genetically similar, but whose lives were far different. They live in a beautiful place out there, such nice surroundings, out in the country, nature, the hills and forest, beautiful. But? there is very little money out there. When I was born in 1960 I became the 800th citizen of Bellefonte KY. Today? there are about 820 people living in that town, but many of them are in poor health. I am filled with a profound sense of gratitude, which negates any anger I can stir within, even in our times when our own USA new media are making a living stirring up anger. People will read the stories if they are sufficiently angry, and many will believe what they read. But I am filled with gratitude for how things turned out. Sadness comes to us all. I got one of my Kentucky second cousins into DNA genealogy, convinced him into doing a test, sent him the kit, yesterday I heard his sample went into PCR, today I find out he is in the hospital with a heart attack and it isn?t looking good, oy vey, and he had to go all the way into Ashland because the Bellefonte hospital is closed. Meanwhile, my heart beats on as if nothing is wrong. Why am I so lucky? The law of averages will surely catch my ass one of these days. But so far so good. I am grateful. A powerful emotion is gratitude. It is negative anger. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 02:58:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:58:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:02 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Why can?t we have a separate classification of like... ?Limited > Resuscitation? Orders? If they are a thing, I?ve never heard of them. > ### Yes, there are all kinds of conditions and restrictions you can put in your wish list, and the default options in Epic include separate orders for resuscitation, intubation, IV fluids, antibiotics - but still there is no option to "Resuscitate if highly likely to do well, do not resuscitate if likely to end up badly". This kind of distinction is actually pretty difficult to define and implement in a scalable fashion. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:24:21 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:24:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> References: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 2:17 PM wrote: > > Rafal and SR, we must deal with the way ICU patients are cared for and > paid for. If a person has no insurance, then a few weeks in the ICU would > impoverish their family, then I can completely see why a person would want > nothing to do with that. I wouldn't want that either. > > Ideally we should have some means of doing a limited-liability insurance > policy whereby a person or family can buy some fixed amount, say 200k, to > cover ICU expenses. Then by agreement, when that money is gone, I'm gone. > > ### The family cannot be held liable for a person's medical expenses, AFAIK, unless we are talking about a dependent child. The hospital could collect from the estate though. Most of the time hospitals will transfer uninsured care losses to us by increasing the prices they charge to us. The 1000% markups we pay for our care are intentional - they are just another manifestation of the takers fleecing the makers. Setting explicit limits on expenses that would allow a hospital to stop providing care after a cap is reached, although very reasonable, is not likely to happen. Most people try to avoid confronting their mortality. Letting hospitals stop care based on economic considerations would be a taboo trade-off - life and money cannot be explicitly traded off against each other, on pain of moral outrage and political attack. I wish I lived in a world of reasonable people. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Aug 7 03:35:07 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:35:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> References: <026801d66c60$a341d870$e9c58950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <58F4ED24-64DE-4A0E-A3F1-AA362F0B3E8C@alumni.virginia.edu> Gratitude seems a fitting answer. Nice one. > On Aug 6, 2020, at 10:15 PM, spike at rainier66.com wrote: > > ? > > > From: Henry Rivera > Subject: Re: [ExI] for Henry > > >?.That measuring humility comment, that?s priceless Spike. > > > Sure, but what is the most priceless thing? I am pretty sure if we set up some kind of contest or competition, I can come up with several pricelesser things than that, without even trying. > > I heard of something they said was priceless: those paintings on the ceiling of that Sixteen Chapel. No way Jose! We could get those babies down, frame in a nice lacquered cherrywood, we could fetch a decent price out of em, thousands of bucks I bet. > > >>?Sadness is to happiness as anger is to? > > >?That?s a tough one. > How about... > > >?Serenity. > > >?Or peacefulness? > > >?Freedom even. Like, letting something go leads to a state of what? That?s what I mean by freedom. No longer being controlled, burdened by something. That?s coming from me with my therapist hat on clearly. > > > > OK cool thanks Henry. I like your serenity answer. I will offer one that I consider the closest to negative anger: gratitude. I am a person filled with gratitude for how my life has turned out, how our world turned out, because I can so easily imagine so many ways things coulda gone so much more wrong. > > Aside: I am regularly online with distant cousins who lived their lives (most of them) near where I was born. It is economically blighted today. The hospital where I was born went out of business a coupla months ago. A few covid patients were their only customers, the rest choosing to stay home and have their strokes and heart attacks treated by amateurs rather than risking catching something bad at the local hospital. I got a notice on our family forum: if I want any of my medical records, apply for them now because they would be archived to where they weren?t necessarily accessible, not easily in any case. > > A bunch of us were talking about it and deciding what to do. I decided to let it go: I have a copy of my birth certificate. I don?t care about the rest of it, if there is any. > > As I kicked all this around, I realized how different my life is from my own cousins, many of whom are genetically similar, but whose lives were far different. They live in a beautiful place out there, such nice surroundings, out in the country, nature, the hills and forest, beautiful. But? there is very little money out there. When I was born in 1960 I became the 800th citizen of Bellefonte KY. Today? there are about 820 people living in that town, but many of them are in poor health. > > I am filled with a profound sense of gratitude, which negates any anger I can stir within, even in our times when our own USA new media are making a living stirring up anger. People will read the stories if they are sufficiently angry, and many will believe what they read. > > But I am filled with gratitude for how things turned out. Sadness comes to us all. I got one of my Kentucky second cousins into DNA genealogy, convinced him into doing a test, sent him the kit, yesterday I heard his sample went into PCR, today I find out he is in the hospital with a heart attack and it isn?t looking good, oy vey, and he had to go all the way into Ashland because the Bellefonte hospital is closed. Meanwhile, my heart beats on as if nothing is wrong. Why am I so lucky? The law of averages will surely catch my ass one of these days. But so far so good. > > I am grateful. A powerful emotion is gratitude. It is negative anger. > > spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:38:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:38:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Signing your death warrant In-Reply-To: References: <008301d63cf7$e2e649e0$a8b2dda0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 3:07 PM Brent Allsop wrote: > > Thanks for bringing this up Rafal, > > I'm completely frustrated with not knowing what to do with this, or what > kind of "advanced life directive" I need. I'm signed up with Alcor, and > expected they would provide me with one. I asked them, probably only once, > in passing, quite a while ago, so it is probably my fault, but I am > completely frustrated that they aren't at least providing a sample one, and > telling me what is and isn't important, for Alcor to be most likely able to > do what they need to do. > > Where does one go, to find a sample "advanced life directive" that is > compatible with being signed up with Alcor? > Do any of you Alcor people out there have one? Could I see a copy? > > ### I wrote my own advanced life directive with the help of my lawyer. It is supposed to work with my POA (power of attorney) for medical decision making. Here it is: Summary of instructions to medical providers (excerpt from my MEDICAL POWER OF ATTORNEY FOR HEALTH CARE DECISIONS) Rafal Smigrodzki, MD I have made provisions for the preservation of my brain after I am declared legally dead. Specifically, I authorized a whole-body donation pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc. of Scottsdale, Arizona. In the event of my legal death, Alcor is authorized to take immediate possession of my body, without delay of any kind. I ask my agent and my medical providers to: 1) Call Alcor at 1-800-367-2228 immediately in any situation where there is a substantial likelihood of my death or major neurological injury, or if my body is delivered to their care. Contacting Alcor shall not be delayed until I am declared incapable of making decisions in writing, and providers are indemnified against any liability stemming from contacting Alcor. 2) Alcor Inc, its agents and employees, including persons staffing the Alcor emergency contact telephone line 1-800-367-2228, and staff on the Alcor Standby team, are cleared by me to receive medical information privileged under HIPAA, insofar as needed to facilitate coordination of care between Alcor and my medical care providers. Alcor employees involved in my case may request and shall promptly be given access to information, including but not limited to, my overall medical condition, prognosis, extent of known damage to the brain, any issues that may adversely impact post- mortem perfusion and stabilization, and may request any available medical record information they deem useful in performing their duties. 3) I disallow autopsy, brain biopsy, organ donation or any other post-mortem procedures unless explicitly agreed to by authorized Alcor employees. 4) In case of witnessed normothermic cardiac arrest, resuscitation must be stopped if there is no ROSC (return of sustained circulation) at the 5 minute mark, given the known poor likelihood of good recovery after more prolonged period of brain ischemia ( Curr Cardiol Rep. 2014 Mar;16(3):457) and given my post-mortem preservation goals. No medical provider shall be held liable for adhering to this instruction. 5) In case of traumatic brain injury, cerebral hemorrhage, major stroke and other situations associated with severe brain edema and impending brainstem herniation, all life support activities should be stopped immediately. 6) In case of unexplained coma not of metabolic origin, such as status post unwitnessed cardiac arrest, an EEG (electroencephalogram) should be performed promptly. If there is severe global brain dysfunction, manifesting for example as burst-suppression pattern, electrocerebral silence, treatment-refractory status epilepticus and other patterns associated with poor prognosis, as assessed by the reading neurologist, all life support treatment should be stopped immediately, even if brainstem reflexes are preserved and I do not fulfill criteria for brain death. 7) In all other situations where it is reasonably certain that I will not recover my ability to interact meaningfully with myself and those around me, I want to stop or withhold all treatments that might prolong my existence. Treatments I would not want include tube feedings, IV fluids, CPR, respirator (breathing machine), kidney dialysis, and antibiotics. However, venous access devices and endotracheal tubes should not be removed until after authorized by Alcor. 8) Immediately after I am pronounced legally dead, I ask my medical providers to inject, if possible, 500 U/kg of unfractionated heparin IV, to perform manual chest compressions for 5 minutes to distribute the heparin, and to wrap my body including the head in a cooling blanket set to the lowest available temperature, unless instructed otherwise by Alcor personnel. 9) If for any reason it is not possible or allowed for Alcor personnel to start their stabilization and preservation procedures in the facility where I die, I direct the facility to transfer my body as soon as possible to another facility, chosen by Alcor representatives, where such procedures may commence. 10) Alcor personnel may be consulted pre-mortem for advice regarding optimal conditions for brain preservation. In making decisions about the duration and extent of care, practitioners and agents should use their clinical judgment to maximize the likelihood of achieving a good post-mortem preservation of brain tissue, rather than trying to prolong the duration of my unconscious life. In addition, I wish to instruct my healthcare providers and agents as to the following: 1) I do want pain medicine and symptom treatments to keep me comfortable, even if it means I am unable to interact with others. I want treatment for such things as shortness of breath, agitation, and seizures 2) As noted above, upon my death I direct that an anatomical gift of all my body must be made pursuant to Va. Code ?32.1-289 et. seq., to Alcor, Inc, of Scottsdale, Arizona. Rafal Smigrodzki, October 19, 2014 ----------------- It is extremely important to have a POA who is familiar with your cryonics goals and is a powerful, smart friend - without a living person pushing to have you suspended you are much more likely to suffer true death if you end up in the hospital and doctors do their usual stuff. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:44:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:44:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's why In-Reply-To: References: <000001d63d3f$b4d9b990$1e8d2cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:19 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > They are proposing replacing the existing police force with a better one: > ### No, they want to replace our police with their police, so if they need somebody beaten up, it will happen. The whole "defund the police" farce is nothing but a bare-faced power grab by people who already have too much power over us. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 03:48:28 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:48:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] that's why In-Reply-To: References: <000001d63d3f$b4d9b990$1e8d2cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 8:10 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Politicians have to stand up to the unions. Congress has to end qualified > immunity (there's a bill in the House now). Transfer of military equipment > to police needs to stop. I think every use of force or allegation of > wrongdoing by an officer should be reviewed by a citizen's review board > empowered to recommend disciplinary actions, criminal charges, or firing, > and these results should be a permanent part of every officer's record. > State and federal governments will have to decriminalize drugs. > ### Absolutely, I agree with all that - but I'd be very surprised if the current political circus lead to any reform, if anything they want to make things much worse. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:00:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 00:00:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dylan Distasio wrote: > > snip > > > There are three main arguments that anti-fascists use to > justify their occasional violence. ### Merely calling yourself "antifa" doesn't make you so. In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, the people's democratic elections are not about electing anybody... the list goes on. Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Party. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:20:34 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 00:20:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Lockdowns In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 3:34 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > " Lockdowns and other distancing measures have had resounding success > at thwarting the new coronavirus, according to two independently > conducted studies. One found that stay-at-home orders and policies > that restrict face-to-face contact were especially effective in 11 > European countries, reducing transmission by 81%. The combination of > policies aimed at slowing the virus?s spread prevented more than 3 > million deaths from the epidemic?s start to early May. Another study > that looked at China, the United States and 4 more countries showed > that across all 6 countries, anti-transmission measures averted > roughly 500 million infections." > > From Nature > > I would modify the article. "Prevented" should be "delayed" and > "averted" should be "temporarily averted" assuming we get neither a > vaccine nor effective treatments. ### Indeed. We see it perfectly now: [image: image.png] After the initial spike which triggered lockdowns the epidemic started to resolve, in accordance with the R0 created by lockdowns. Then lockdowns more or less ended and cases spiked (plus there was more testing), in accordance with the R0 created by a no-lockdown situation. Since the change in R0 achieved by lockdowns was not permanent, all that the multi trillion dollar lockdown hysteria achieved was to shift cases between April and July. By the time a permanent way of changing R0 in the form of a vaccine arrives the whole thing will be 90% over anyway. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 194895 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 04:25:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Antifa are not the armed wing of the democratic party. Antifa is so far left of the Democratic Party that it?s honestly not even a funny joke. SR Ballard > On Aug 6, 2020, at 11:00 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:51 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> Dylan Distasio wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > There are three main arguments that anti-fascists use to >> justify their occasional violence. > > ### Merely calling yourself "antifa" doesn't make you so. In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, the people's democratic elections are not about electing anybody... the list goes on. Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Party. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 05:04:44 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:04:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is > basically a good idea, > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 05:13:36 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 01:13:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Protest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Bill, you have most of it, but you miss the fact that *most of the > time*, your tribe swapped women with the neighboring tribe. ### Napoleon Chagnon seems to disagree. "Swapping" occurred in the context of raids or by extortion. Equally powerful groups might have some voluntary member exchange but mostly women were acquired by force. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 08:29:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 04:29:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200806174450.Horde.n0r-VwFtE80kPuJzzrRxfD3@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:47 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >* I**f a microbiologist wants to buy a telescope, look at the sky with > it, form opinions, ask questions, and use the scientific method to answer > them, then she is within her rights to do so.* I'm a libertarian (small l) so I think she has a right to say whatever she wants, but if she is not only forming her own astronomical theories to explain the facts but also forming her own facts obtained with a Walmart toy telescope and doing so for clearly political reasons then it is my right to call her a ideological crackpot. > > *That being said, there is a reproducibility crisis going on in > science.* The scientific community is not perfect but you are not going to get closer to the truth from right wing bloggers who have been students of the science of epidemiology for 20 minutes or so. > *> to his credit, Linus Pauling lived to be 98 years old so, if it did > not help him, then his mega-dosing of vitamin-C certainly did not harm > him. Come to think of it, with all the supplements and nootropic stacks > being taken around these parts, he probably would have fit right in on > this here list.* > Linus Pauling was the greatest chemist of the 20th century so I'd forgive his little vitamin-C eccentricity, and he'd fit in with this list as it was until about 5 years ago because, although he was interested in politics and got a second Nobel Prize for opposing atmospheric nuclear bomb testing, for him scientific truth always had priority over ideology, both right wing and left. But this list has radically changed in the last 5 years, so Linus Pauling would no longer fit in around here. I'm not sure I do either. > And I must conclude that today's science deniers tend to be ideological stooges >> of the right. > > > > *Unless the science is genetics as it pertains to things like > sex-determination, IQ, and genetically modified organisms. Other sciences > routinely denied by the left are nuclear physics (nuclear power)* It's true that left-wing science deniers exist too but they are not in ascendancy or are the immediate problem, the immediate problem is right wing crackpots in charge of the federal government who are denying reality and killing people as a result, tens of thousands of people. *> and immunology (vaccinations).* > Trump loves vaccines now because he thinks the hope of one will help him get reelected, however 4 Years ago he said he hated vaccines and blamed them for giving children autism because he thought that would help him get elected. And it did. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 10:11:01 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:11:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and >> is basically a good idea, >> > > > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great > again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing the police*". John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 10:29:31 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:29:31 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about #987. I'd put right wing nuts somewhere in the top 5. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 13:55:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 06:55:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother Message-ID: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> For years I went to a really good sushi bar down the way from the Lockheed plant, great place, now outta business, but the guy who owned the place and his wife did everything, made the sushi, no other employees. He was pretty good at Spanish, his English not so much. When I would go in there, he would say: go aisatsu, Amanojaku, which I assumed means hello friend, even though it sounds a little like: Go, I sat sue, Amanojaku. He and I got along fine. I said I was thinking about learning Japanese, since I like the food so much and admire the culture. He suggested, no, too hard for American people, learn Spanish. This is what he did, and we could almost communicate better with my little bit of Spanish than we could with his very limited English. So it was years of go aisatsu, Amanojaku. Yesterday a Japanese neighbor's granddaughter was visiting from Japan. She introduced us, so I said go aisatsu, Amanojaku. The visiting family laughed. My neighbor explained that I might be better off sticking to my native language, that English speakers probably needn't bother with Japanese because it was far too cluttered with subtleties, such as: there isn't a really universal word for greeting a general acquaintance exactly, nothing analogous to our generic term "friend" the way we use it. A new acquaintance or friend has different (completely different) terms based on your position (which I interpret as social? position) such as a grandfather-aged man to a child, a child to a grandfather-aged man, two neighbors the same age, gender-specific, oy vey, let's flee to the universal term "amigo" please. It was a pleasant exchange, there were no problems or anything. But I went on home and looked it up. After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying "Greetings, horrifying demon." Why that sly bastard. I don't think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:10:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:10:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to say about it: * *"* *While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. I worked much harder at it, and got to a point where I could go around in taxis and do things. I took lessons from a Japanese man every day for an hour. One day he was teaching me the word for "see." "All right," he said. "You want to say, 'May I see your garden?' What do you say?" I made up a sentence with the word that I had just learned. "No, no!" he said. "When you say to someone, 'Would you like to see my garden? you use the first 'see.' But when you want to see someone else's garden, you must use another 'see,' which is more polite." "Would you like to glance at my lousy garden?" is essentially what you're saying in the first case, but when you want to look at the other fella's garden, you have to say something like, "May I observe your gorgeous garden?" So there's two different words you have to use. Then he gave me another one: "You go to a temple, and you want to look at the gardens. . ." I made up a sentence, this time with the polite "see." "No, no!" he said. "In the temple, the gardens are much more elegant. So you have to say something that would be equivalent to 'May I hang my eyes on your most exquisite gardens?' Three or four different words for one idea, because when I'm doing it, it's miserable? when you're doing it, it's elegant. I was learning Japanese mainly for technical things, so I decided to check if this same problem existed among the scientists. At the institute the next day, I said to the guys in the office, "How would I say in Japanese, 'I solve the Dirac Equation'?" They said such?and?so. "OK. Now I want to say, 'Would you solve the Dirac Equation?' ?? how do I say that?" "Well, you have to use a different word for 'solve,' " they say. "Why?" I protested. "When I solve it, I do the same damn thing as when you solve it!" "Well, yes, but it's a different word ?? it's more polite." I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning Japanese."* * John K Clark* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:33:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:33:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Language is an incredibly powerful element of a culture. There is a circular feedback loop of culture shaping language and language shaping culture. I believe it affects thought directly as it is difficult to think about something when you don't have something in the language to verbalize it. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:12 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out >> Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child >> and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her >> grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi >> guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I >> don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I >> say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *"* > > > > > > *While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. I worked much > harder at it, and got to a point where I could go around in taxis and do > things. I took lessons from a Japanese man every day for an hour. One day > he was teaching me the word for "see." "All right," he said. "You want to > say, 'May I see your garden?' What do you say?" I made up a sentence with > the word that I had just learned. "No, no!" he said. "When you say to > someone, 'Would you like to see my garden? you use the first 'see.' But > when you want to see someone else's garden, you must use another 'see,' > which is more polite." "Would you like to glance at my lousy garden?" is > essentially what you're saying in the first case, but when you want to > look at the other fella's garden, you have to say something like, "May I > observe your gorgeous garden?" So there's two different words you have to > use. Then he gave me another one: "You go to a temple, and you want to > look at the gardens. . ." I made up a sentence, this time with the polite > "see." "No, no!" he said. "In the temple, the gardens are much more > elegant. So you have to say something that would be equivalent to 'May I > hang my eyes on your most exquisite gardens?' Three or four different > words for one idea, because when I'm doing it, it's miserable? when you're > doing it, it's elegant. I was learning Japanese mainly for technical > things, so I decided to check if this same problem existed among the > scientists. At the institute the next day, I said to the guys in the > office, "How would I say in Japanese, 'I solve the Dirac Equation'?" They > said such?and?so. "OK. Now I want to say, 'Would you solve the Dirac > Equation?' ?? how do I say that?" "Well, you have to use a different word > for 'solve,' " they say. "Why?" I protested. "When I solve it, I do the > same damn thing as when you solve it!" "Well, yes, but it's a different > word ?? it's more polite." I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language > for me, and stopped learning Japanese."* > > * John K Clark* > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 16:54:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 09:54:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to say about it: >?"While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning Japanese." John K Clark The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard qwerty keyboard: Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a trombone. But the tried, kinda: ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they dropped that. Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a specialized subset of language. Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and use be for all of it? The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 16:57:48 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:57:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What's wrong with hieroglyphics? Chinese is an extreme beautiful and parsimonious language. Also, polite forms in Japanese aren't always completely different words, often just a different suffix. We have lots of polite and impolite forms of words here too: hey, hi, hello. &c On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 12:54 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I > gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning > Japanese.**"* > > > > * John K Clark* > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole > notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they > invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard > qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense > with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, > been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we > could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and > use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:03:36 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:03:36 +0100 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 17:56, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Google translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person". Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:04:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I found it interesting that the INdonesian language has no past or future verb forms. "I do that tomorrow. Or I do that next week." The more I learn about language the more I see that the world needs Esperanto or something like it, mainly for business. The big languages are big messes or homophones and tonal variations of the same word, etc. etc. Nonverbal language ditto. I read where it is just impossible for a Westerner to understand the Japanese bowing - how much, to whom, how long, etc. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out > Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child > and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her > grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi > guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I > don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I > say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* > > > *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to > say about it: * > > *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I > gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning > Japanese.**"* > > > > * John K Clark* > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the whole > notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so they > invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a standard > qwerty keyboard: > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense > with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, > been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we > could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and > use be for all of it? > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:06:41 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:06:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:19:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:19:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the translator was up one too. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:13 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 17:56, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the > whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so > they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a > standard qwerty keyboard: > > > > Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. > > They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. > > > > The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language > thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a > trombone. But the tried, kinda: > > > > ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. > > Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard > keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes > in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they > dropped that. > > > > Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese > didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. > > > > Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their > written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a > kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are > collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect > the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) > > > > Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole > Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been > introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the > political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a > specialized subset of language. > > > > Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future > tense with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, > being, been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what > if? we could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball > star and use be for all of it? > > > > The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a > simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, > unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept > clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. > > > > Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. > > > > I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown > distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced > to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it > come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. > > > > I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. > > > > There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation > programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Google > translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person". > Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two > male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little > devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:22:52 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:22:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Not that I'm a linguist, but having studied Latin many moons ago, my vote would be for that to be the lingua franca. It may not be the most exciting or beautiful language, but it is very well structured and generally follows well defined rules. There's a big difference between the Latin spoken by Virgil/Cicero compared to the unwashed masses, but I believe it would be a good choice. English (at least for now) is the defacto one, in the past it was French. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:19 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I found it interesting that the INdonesian language has no past or future > verb forms. "I do that tomorrow. Or I do that next week." > > The more I learn about language the more I see that the world needs > Esperanto or something like it, mainly for business. The big languages are > big messes or homophones and tonal variations of the same word, etc. etc. > Nonverbal language ditto. I read where it is just impossible for a > Westerner to understand the Japanese bowing - how much, to whom, how long, > etc. > > bill w > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out >> Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child >> and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her >> grandparents into feeding it. All this time for all those years, my sushi >> guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I >> don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I >> say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women.* >> >> >> *Richard Feynman also tried to learn Japanese and this is what he had to >> say about it: * >> >> *>?"**While in Kyoto I tried to learn Japanese with a vengeance. ? I >> gave up. I decided that wasn't the language for me, and stopped learning >> Japanese.**"* >> >> >> >> * John K Clark* >> >> >> >> The Japanese (and to some extent the Vietnamese) recognized that the >> whole notion of using hieroglyphics as a written language was a no-go, so >> they invented a form of their language which could be transmitted on a >> standard qwerty keyboard: >> >> Iki minangka conto saka ukara Jepang. >> >> >> >> They did it right: they made the spellings strictly phonetic. >> >> The Vietnamese argued there was no possible way to play their language >> thru a qwerty keyboard any more effectively than one can play rap thru a >> trombone. But the tried, kinda: >> >> ??y l? m?t v? d? v? m?t c?u ti?ng Nh?t. >> >> >> >> Several of those Vietnamese characters aren?t available on the standard >> keyboard as far as I know, yet all the voting literature in this town comes >> in English, Mandarin and Vietnamese. Used to have Spanish, but they >> dropped that. >> >> Clearly Vietnamese on a keyboard is a mess. The Mandarin and Cantonese >> didn?t even bother trying. They just learn English. Kinda. >> >> Since Japan recognized that they needed to go international with their >> written language, it seems like they (and other languages) could invent a >> kind of simplified subset where all those terms for the same thing are >> collapsed down to one word and forget the social subtleties, don?t expect >> the round-eyes to master all that cultural stuff (don?t worry, we won?t.) >> >> Even English can be greatly simplified (once we get over the whole >> Newspeak implications (Orwell?s Newspeak concept really shoulda been >> introduced in a different book with a happy outcome (the concept, minus the >> political angle, is one of his great ideas))) and freely recognized as a >> specialized subset of language. >> >> Example, our verb ?to be.? We can express past, present and future tense >> with it, plurality and so forth, but that gives us 8 forms: be, being, >> been, am, is, are, was, were, and I mighta missed a couple, but what if? we >> could just accept that we sound a little like a teenage basketball star and >> use be for all of it? >> >> The goal: create a simplified Newspeak-ish vocabulary which has a >> simplified and formalized grammar, strictly phonetic spelling, >> unambiguously and rigorously defined terms, even if we need to accept >> clumsy and possibly harsh-sounding translations. >> >> Then we get other languages to meet in the middle and see what happens. >> >> I would be reluctant to even try to work with Japanese, having grown >> distrustful of everything my sushi chef taught me. I would be introduced >> to my neighbor?s granddaughter, try to say hello, young lady, and have it >> come out: Greetings, promiscuous wench. >> >> I must admit the Google translate feature does a hell of a good job. >> >> There is a point to all this, a culture thing, to follow. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:27:56 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:27:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:24 PM Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. > > I'm not sure I would call it dumbing down. There's no question there is a difference, but that doesn't mean one is superior to the other in terms of method of address. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:30:32 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:30:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1BD9F6C2-5012-402F-A2BD-8B6E5772007D@gmail.com> He called you that probably as a cute joke because you were so eager to eat his food and tried to be very charming SR Ballard > On Aug 7, 2020, at 8:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > For years I went to a really good sushi bar down the way from the Lockheed plant, great place, now outta business, but the guy who owned the place and his wife did everything, made the sushi, no other employees. He was pretty good at Spanish, his English not so much. When I would go in there, he would say: go aisatsu, Amanojaku, which I assumed means hello friend, even though it sounds a little like: Go, I sat sue, Amanojaku. > > He and I got along fine. I said I was thinking about learning Japanese, since I like the food so much and admire the culture. He suggested, no, too hard for American people, learn Spanish. This is what he did, and we could almost communicate better with my little bit of Spanish than we could with his very limited English. > > So it was years of go aisatsu, Amanojaku. > > Yesterday a Japanese neighbor?s granddaughter was visiting from Japan. She introduced us, so I said go aisatsu, Amanojaku. The visiting family laughed. My neighbor explained that I might be better off sticking to my native language, that English speakers probably needn?t bother with Japanese because it was far too cluttered with subtleties, such as: there isn?t a really universal word for greeting a general acquaintance exactly, nothing analogous to our generic term ?friend? the way we use it. A new acquaintance or friend has different (completely different) terms based on your position (which I interpret as social? position) such as a grandfather-aged man to a child, a child to a grandfather-aged man, two neighbors the same age, gender-specific, oy vey, let?s flee to the universal term ?amigo? please. > > It was a pleasant exchange, there were no problems or anything. > > But I went on home and looked it up. After 30 years of calling my Japanese friends amanojaku, I find out Amanojaku is a demon-like beast in Japanese folklore, who devours a child and dresses up in her skin in order to impersonate the child to fool her grandparents into feeding it. > > All this time for all those years, my sushi guy was saying ?Greetings, horrifying demon.? Why that sly bastard. I don?t think I will use the other Japanese terms and phrases he suggested I say to attractive young Japanese-speaking women. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:46:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:46:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <019501d66ce2$9f6407f0$de2c17d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother >?What's wrong with hieroglyphics? Chinese is an extreme beautiful and parsimonious language. >?Also, polite forms in Japanese aren't always completely different words, often just a different suffix. We have lots of polite and impolite forms of words here too: hey, hi, hello. &c Ja, out with all of it in Newspeak I say. It all becomes just ?greetings.? If subtle shades of meaning are needed, we use the modifier good. Wave to friend, ?good greetings.? Some jerk bumps your car with his door, instead of HEY it becomes UNGOOD GREETINGS. That sorta thing. Newspeak isn?t great for expressing emotion, writing haiku, getting mama in the mood, any of that. It would be kind of a universal business language of sorts. Here?s why I am struggling with this concept. We are in a culture war of sorts and the immigrants among us are most puzzled. The people across the street came from China when their son was taking his first steps. Now he has a good college degree, great job, still lives at home by mutual choice. But there is a definite culture divide in their home, which they deal with effectively. The parents? English is passable, but their culture is very Chinese. The son speaks English without a trace of accent, and speaks some Mandarin (can?t write it.) He definitely thinks in English. Culturally the parents are very Chinese but their son is American to the core and thinks like Americans do. This came up once again, with the whole shelter-in-place orders. My neighbor (the father, who is about my age) told me he was worried about his son. He thinks he can just go and do whatever he wants. I was puzzled by the comment, pointing out: Well, he can. We discussed it and realized something important with his comment: In China, if your mother or the government tells you do something, you better do it. With his comment, I realized he had in a sense equated government to his own mother. Americans like his son just don?t think that way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 17:49:04 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a solution except to construct power satellites entirely with robots/teleoperation. If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on request.) If we are building only a few, then the power satellites can cope with the damage and the additional space junk created by the hits. But a few power satellites will not solve energy or carbon problems, it takes thousands and this would cause Kessler syndrome The only solution I know is to build them above the junk at around 2000 km. People can't work there, it's in the lower Van Allen belt and lethal within hours. It is physically possible to clean up the space junk, but the cost and political problems would probably doom power satellites entirely. The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% over the cost at 300 km. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:53:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:53:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c801d66ce3$a395d550$eac17ff0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ Colloquialisms and context are a big problem for computer translation programs. Word X = word Y just doesn't work in many cases. Which is a fair attempt at a conversational translation. Between two male American friends it might even be translated as "Hi, you little devil", spoken with a smile. Human translators still have a job to do. :) BillK _______________________________________________ >...Google translates "go aisatsu, Amanojaku" as "Greetings, perverse person"... BillK haaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaheheheheheheeeeeeeeeehehehheeehehehehehheheheheeeeee.... How did he know that? OK cool, I will still eat his sushi if I can find him. I was a volunteer noodle cooker at the annual Obon Festival in San Jose Buddhist temple for several years. The guys there were giving me nicknames and putting me up to saying things in Japanese, but I was always wary of those fellers, knowing there were subtleties to their language which we round-eye not only didn't get, we just couldn't get, because we had never lived in Japan. I still want to go there and hang around for at least several weeks. I will wait until the virus goes away. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 17:59:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 10:59:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c901d66ce4$7ad17920$70746b60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother Spike, You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling? Hi Mike, ja, we need all that cultural stuff outta there at every level. We have torn down the notion of social rank, the differing levels of respect in American society, removed notional differences between classes, genders and races. Now all Americans are the same. Being cultural missionaries in a sense, now we must make every other culture like ours if they want to do business with our asses. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 7 18:01:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:01:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] don't bother >?I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the translator was up one too. bill w Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:11:04 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:11:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Chagnon was Protest Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Bill, you have most of it, but you miss the fact that *most of the >> time*, your tribe swapped women with the neighboring tribe. >### Napoleon Chagnon seems to disagree. "Swapping" occurred in the context of raids or by extortion. Equally powerful groups might have some voluntary member exchange but mostly women were acquired by force. "The percentage of females in the lowland villages who have been abducted is significantly higher: 17% compared to 11.7% in the highland villages." (Napoleon Chagnon quoted at Sexual Polarization in Warrior Cultures) https://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Capture-bonding That still means that practically everyone in the tribe was descended within the last few generations from a captive. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:20:58 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 11:20:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Japanese was don't bother Message-ID: My daughter speaks Japanese, well enough to get around in Japan. She took four years of it in high school and two in college. Keith From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 7 18:47:46 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2020 11:47:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Keith Henson: > > Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have > thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a > solution except to construct power satellites entirely with > robots/teleoperation. Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? That would be above the Van Allen radiation belt. Another possibility might be to construct them in polar orbit. Then the astronauts would only be in the belt 1/3 of the time. Since they would know when they would be entering the belt, they would be able to seek shelter inside small shielded compartments or something. I haven't done any calculations on these ideas, so I am just throwing them out there as suggestions. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 18:59:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:59:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. spike Yeah, and neither one necessarily involves an animal. Depending on your taste in the latter case. bill w On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] don't bother > > > > >?I read of a translator who heard the speaker use a metaphor involving a > cat. He decided that it would make better sense for his listeners to make > it a dog, so he did. Then the speaker had the cat climb a tree and the > translator was up one too. bill w > > > > > > Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:01:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 14:01:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn: Henry Message-ID: Here is my review of the H factor book: https://www.amazon.com/review/R8C9AYJAJK5OM/ref=pe_1098610_137716200_cm_rv_eml_rv0_rv bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:02:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:02:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Perhaps someone has a proposal to get around this problem. I have > thought about it for the last 3-4 years and failed to come up with a > solution except to construct power satellites entirely with > robots/teleoperation. > I also think that teleconstruction is the best route for any on-orbit construction needed for this application.. > If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, > they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on > request.) > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. > The only > solution I know is to build them above the junk at around 2000 km. > People can't work there, it's in the lower Van Allen belt and lethal > within hours. > What are you thinking they are built of, and how do those components get there in ways that fully constructed satellites wouldn't? For that matter, how are you thinking the components get to LEO, in ways that are collectively cheaper than ground assembly then launching the whole thing to LEO? > The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, > then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the > construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small > target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann > transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost > of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% > over the cost at 300 km. > Have you looked into ion engines for the tug instead of chemical engines? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:05:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:05:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200807114746.Horde.WtbpJ5KxDUbvXWMUGeID58S@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 11:49 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at > earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a lunar construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully assembled) from the Moon to GEO. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:44:21 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:44:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> <01d001d66ce4$b9b15c00$2d141400$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:01 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ja I get that. A doghouse and a cat house are two very different things. > > > > spike > > Yeah, and neither one necessarily involves an animal. Depending > > on your taste in the latter case. bill w > Here's a scene from some science fiction I recently drabbled. In the far future, humanity has spread among the stars and taken their pets with them. One variety, named "ship's cat", has been upgraded to be fully compatible with life aboard starships: they will avoid vacuum (or if needed, wander into emergency-pressure rescue balls), are mostly housebroken by instinct (the litter box being the only sandy surface in most ships), have passive radio-response tags so crews can find them when it is time to leave a world (implanted in some breeds, organic/"natural" in others), and so on. One world has taken this a step further with "kittyjuvenators". An old cat wanders in, the device sedates them, flash-clones what their body was like as a year-old kitten, copies the mind, releases the kitten, and destroys the almost-dead-anyway body. The cats have no identity crisis from this: they culturally accept that the new body is the "real them", even if there is a brief period of adjustment to their new body. As a result, they have lived long enough to interact with human educational technology, learn to read and write (a bit clumsily using claws, but mostly via keyboard), and develop a culture. And grew to wonder just what happened to those tall, massive beings that once cuddled them and set up all these robots that the cats now subsist with. Alongside more serious consequences, licking each other just is not the same as an intense scritching. A party of adventuring cats eventually finds an abandoned human starship - small (by human standards) and forgotten in the exodus. A single human could operate it - and so can the party of cats, after puzzling out and adjusting the ship's controls for around a week. As part of this, the bedroom is converted. Though the large mattress remains, shelves are added for the cats to get up high and rest on, essentially a personal bunk for each feline crew. Scratching posts, auto-scooping/self-cleaning litter boxes, and the other necessities of feline shipboard life are set up,. and life support is tuned to the needs of cats. The result can fairly be described as a "cat house". Thus does the cat crew set off on a voyage of discovery...and eventually of rescue, the descendants of their friends having not fled far enough to escape a danger that never noticed cats. But that is another tale. (During first recontact, the comms officer did not literally ask, "Can we has cuddles?", but it makes for a good meme.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 19:57:13 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 12:57:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > >> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >> request.) > > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:05:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:05:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: <007a01d66cc2$5db470d0$191d5270$@rainier66.com> <013001d66cdb$5a310d10$0e932730$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The big languages are big messes Actually the most complex languages in the world are spoken by small groups of people who have been isolated from other cultures for a long time, such languages are virtually impossible for adults to learn, even skilled linguists. And even if you're born into the culture it takes children several years longer to achieve full fluency than it does for children living in larger less isolated societies speaking less complex languages. Some of the 832 languages spoken in New Guinea are like this. John K Clark > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:33:12 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:33:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> References: <4D0E1D5C-560F-4BB5-A718-B01DC069A6DA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >> request.) >> > > Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on > average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am > aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero > times. > > > Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest > satellites, no? > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:49:24 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:49:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >>>> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >>>> request.) >>> >>> Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. >> >> Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? > > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. > > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) There?s also flight time, but you?re likely right. Size and duration could up the number above the average LEO to GEO flight, but planning and avoidance could lower that. And given that the investment would be much much larger, I imagine even more effort would be put into reducing the likelihood. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 20:55:20 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 13:55:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> References: <93F5C989-9985-4558-A21B-FCDB7D6CCCAB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:50 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 7, 2020, at 1:35 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:58 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Aug 7, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? >> >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:59 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> If we build power satellites in LEO and try to fly them out to GEO, >>> they get hit with space junk about 40 times. (Excel spreadsheet on >>> request.) >>> >> >> Data source, please? That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on >> average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am >> aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero >> times. >> >> >> Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest >> satellites, no? >> > > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let > alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. > > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was > literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to > check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and > they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough > to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital > velocities. They still track it.) > > > There?s also flight time, but you?re likely right. Size and duration could > up the number above the average LEO to GEO flight, but planning and > avoidance could lower that. And given that the investment would be much > much larger, I imagine even more effort would be put into reducing the > likelihood. > Given how often people question if such tracking is possible, I suppose I should bolster my point with a link to that service, to prove that it actually exists and is available for anyone (or at least, not just US government people) to use: https://www.space-track.org/documentation#/faq . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 22:35:33 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 15:35:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) Message-ID: Stuart LaForge wrote: > Have you run the numbers for constructing power satellites at earth-moon L1, and then moving them into place? For parts from earth, flying them to L1 and back to GEO would cost far too much delta V. > That would be above the Van Allen radiation belt. Another possibility might be to construct them in polar orbit. Then the astronauts would only be in the belt 1/3 of the time. The radiation is still way too high. Plus it is much more expensive to launch to polar orbit since you can't take advantage of earth's rotation. Plus the amount of delta-V it would take to plane change from a polar orbit to GEO is excessive. > Since they would know when they would be entering the belt, they would be able to seek shelter inside small shielded compartments or something. I haven't done any calculations on these ideas, so I am just throwing them out there as suggestions. Makes me realize how much unstated background in involved with this topic. Adrian Tymes wrote: > Data source, please? Table in Wikipedia, simple spreadsheet. This problem has been recognized since the late 78s. > That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero times. Comm satellites have dimensions of meters and an area of tens of square meters. They also go up fast, a few hours. Power satellites have dimensions in the 10 km range, areas in the tens of square km, and (if self powered) take weeks to months to go from LEO to GEO. snip > What are you thinking they are built of, Invar perhaps. > and how do those components get there in ways that fully constructed satellites wouldn't? > For that matter, how are you thinking the components get to LEO, in ways that are collectively cheaper than ground assembly then launching the whole thing to LEO? Ah . . . A power satellite has km scale dimensions, a mass of around 30,000 tons and is flimsy. I don't think a multi km faring or a rocket big enough to put 30,000 tons in LEO is in the cards. > The current baseline logistics is to collect parts in a 300 km orbit, > then use a recycling tug with chemical fuel to get them out to the > construction site at 2000 km (densely packed so they present a small > target to getting hit). It takes (IIRC) 827 m/s for a Hohmann > transfer from 300 km out to 2000. The fuel burned increases the cost > of parts (and reaction mass) at the construction orbit by about 20% > over the cost at 300 km. Have you looked into ion engines for the tug instead of chemical engines? Ion engines are of such low thrust it would spend years going up. Arejets seem to be better suited to the task. Adrian Tymes wrote > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a lunar construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully assembled) from the Moon to GEO. I would say this is way beyond what can be done with existing engineering. Dan TheBookMan wrote: > Bigger target though. SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Close to a million times larger. Adrian Tymes wrote: > Not nearly big enough to get hit an average of even once per trip, let alone 40, if Keith means the designs I think he means. You also need to factor in that they take weeks rather than an hour to go through the junk. > Especially if the trips are plotted to avoid tracked debris; I was literally just yesterday looking at the US government's latest service to check such trajectories and confirm they'll be free of known debris, and they have access to good enough radar to track almost anything large enough to matter. (Acknowledging that "large enough" is very small, given orbital velocities. They still track it.) It will not be hard to keep from hitting the big stuff. But there is just too much small stuff to avoid it. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 23:15:21 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:15:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] don't bother In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9594D3E8-61D1-4E23-B9D3-36020393B7FC@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 10:25 AM, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote:? > > Spike, > > You know spanish also has this familiar vs formal: tu vs usted > > It was explained to me that peasants use the formal "your grace" when speaking to the lord whose land they are on, and a simple "you" among peers. Then that evolved to formal respect to elders or whatever. > > That other cultures dumb down for English speakers is ... telling. English had those differences, but they faded away.* In fact, ?you? was the polite form and ?thou? was the familiar form for the second person singular pronoun. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst * This has happened and is happening in other languages too. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T?V_distinction -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 7 23:30:02 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 16:30:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:37 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Data source, please? > > Table in Wikipedia, simple spreadsheet. Page? > This problem has been > recognized since the late 78s. > Your problem statement presumes data that substantially conflicts with the data I am aware of. Also, the orbital debris environment has changed significantly since the 1970s (assuming that's what "78s" is a typo for). > That a single satellite going LEO->GEO will on > average be hit 40 times seems way higher than is supported by the data I am > aware of - which is that most satellites going from LEO to GEO get hit zero > times. > > Comm satellites have dimensions of meters and an area of tens of > square meters. They also go up fast, a few hours. Power satellites > have dimensions in the 10 km range, areas in the tens of square km, > and (if self powered) take weeks to months to go from LEO to GEO. > This makes so many assumptions... 1) Slower I can buy. You mean they're using their own power to power ion engines (or arcjets, or other electric rockets) as a cost saving measure, yes? 2) Send them up in smaller pieces, designed to teleassemble on GEO. That way, if one of them does get hit it doesn't take out nearly as much of a satellite - and it has an easier time dodging. 3) If they're self powered, they can carry (or be towed by something with) lasers powerful enough to deflect smaller space debris, and evade large debris (which they should have a lot more warning about). > A power satellite has km scale dimensions, a mass of around > 30,000 tons and is flimsy. I don't think a multi km faring or a > rocket big enough to put 30,000 tons in LEO is in the cards. > You're making a lot of other hardware for this project, why not a 30 k-ton launch vehicle? > > I wonder if there's enough data to estimate the cost of setting up a > lunar > construction facility, building the satellites there, then launching (fully > assembled) from the Moon to GEO. > > I would say this is way beyond what can be done with existing engineering. > I wouldn't, not given some of the existing engineering I've seen just in the past few months. But then, I may be using a wider version of "existing", considering we're already talking about using many other things that don't already exist but we know how to make them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 13:19:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 06:19:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> The annual huge bike rally at Sturgis South Dakota is going forth. The Sturgis crowd tends to be older people in general, the 50-something and 60-somethings being perhaps the mode. Several of my biker friends are going this year. Sturgis is a biiiig deal to that crowd, their much-anticipated relatively low-cost annual vacation. The theory is that outdoor transmission of covid is rare, but this is a special case. You don't really have enough cargo capacity on a bike to carry your own supplies and be self-contained for even a week, the way I did on my recent 3 week trip with a camper, so they will be at restaurants and hotels. The crowds at the Sturgis events are very closely packed, which is clear from the photos my friend sent. Some are wearing masks outdoors, looks like about maybe 20%. The hotels are booked solid, so it will include some tent camping as that rally always does, but pleeeenty of eating indoors at restaurants. The biker crowd isn't known for caution or for following orders, which is good because South Dakota has taken a mostly hands-off approach: their governor hasn't mandated masks or shut downs in general, but she did shut down public schools (which makes sense.) A lot of South Dakota is Indian reservation, so the chiefs make their own rules on both schools and restaurants on the rez (haven't heard how they are doing.) I just got a note from one of my friends who is there now who has been going to most of the Sturgis rallies for the last 30 yrs, says they are having a blast. They cancelled the opening ceremonies, but the party goes on full throttle. Sturgis is on my list of to-dos, but haven't done yet and mighta stayed back this year out of abundance of caution, even if I hadn't been busy with other matters. There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. Good luck bikers. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Sat Aug 8 13:32:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 14:32:42 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Space Project (power satellites) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/08/2020 21:55, Dan TheBookMan asked > SSPSs are really big compared to even the biggest satellites, no? Has anyone considered making many, much smaller, cheaper ones on the ground, that can be launched to high orbit directly, and automatically link up into a grid? Perhaps this could become an industry in itself, churning out small powersats indefinitely. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 15:39:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 08:39:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] brady bunch choir Message-ID: <00ae01d66d9a$13239ae0$396ad0a0$@rainier66.com> Nearly every American born in the 1960s knows what this picture is: They might even know a few lines of the jingle, but I think of it when I see my son's Zoom classroom. It creates a matrix of images, in that case with about 30 students rather than these nine thespians (couldn't the L crowd come up with a name that doesn't rhyme with thespian?) Many here probably used Zoom or Google Meets recently. Today we learn that the high school choir and band classes are going ahead over Zoom. If you have used that technology, you already know there is an inherent latency which makes it impossible to do anything in unison, even reciting the scout oath. The whole thing turns into chattery chaos. But. the show goes on. It will be the Brady Bunch Choir, which may never actually get a chance to meet face to face and can't actually sing together. I noticed something interesting: South Dakota, which is a very open-minded state, didn't do all that much with covid restrictions in general, did go ahead and close the schools back in March, and kept them closed. Now we hear they will stay closed in the fall in SD, completely. The covid deaths per capita is about 260 per million in California and about 160 per million proles in South Dakota, which makes those two outfits nearly comparable (because there is a lot of uncertainty about the numbers reported in both places (and the SD numbers include the reservations (which follow their own whims on how the medicine man does his business.))) SD schools will stay closed. In California the decision is mostly at the county health department level. Meanwhile. in the SF Bay, we have a mixed bag. Our schools are partially re-opening next week, as are the schools in the next town to the north, for cases where it can be plausibly argued the student is better off on a possibly dangerous campus than their alternative. I know of at least four cases where I would argue the student damn is better off being physically present on that campus next week. The whole Zoom business, oy vey, better than nothing but that isn't really school. Still, I am in favor of keeping that campus mostly closed for now. We can choose to go to a rogue business staying open in spite of the governor's and county's orders, but that's the business owner's decision and our choice to patronize them or not. The students are required to go to school if the school is open. So. I agree with the advisory committee plurality: stay mostly closed for now. Suggestions welcome, on this forum or offlist. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17595 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 16:45:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 09:45:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized Message-ID: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Those of you into car racing in the olden days might remember Steve Saleen. He retired from racing in the early 80s and started making racecars, built up a big company. Sportscar spotters can occasionally see a Saleen S7 growling around, particularly if you hang out in really rich areas (an S7 costs almost a million bucks.) Saleen worked with the Chinese to build high-performance cars in China (well, makes sense, ja? (China must have rich people too (and rich people will want to tear around like their butts are on fire too (wouldn't they? (and sooner or later, they will want car racing too (and will build tracks and drag strips and stuff (the same way we did.))))))) One of my favorite car sites now reports the Chinese government seized Saleen's factory along with the robots and intellectual property: https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/steve-saleen-claims-chinese-joint-venture- has-stolen-his-intellectual-property/ This has huge implications: if the Chinese government can seize Saleen's factory and IP, they can seize Elon Musk's factory and IP. If so, the world can buy Chinese-made Teslas cheaper than Musk can build em in Fremont. This is a bad thing for the local lads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 17:14:36 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:14:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: While this specific instance is news, the trend isn't. Operating a factory in China is always a gamble against their seizing your stuff and becoming a competitor using your tech. They've been doing this kind of thing for ages. They have rule of autocrats, more than rule of law. On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 9:46 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Those of you into car racing in the olden days might remember Steve > Saleen. He retired from racing in the early 80s and started making > racecars, built up a big company. Sportscar spotters can occasionally see > a Saleen S7 growling around, particularly if you hang out in really rich > areas (an S7 costs almost a million bucks.) > > > > Saleen worked with the Chinese to build high-performance cars in China > (well, makes sense, ja? (China must have rich people too (and rich people > will want to tear around like their butts are on fire too (wouldn?t they? > (and sooner or later, they will want car racing too (and will build tracks > and drag strips and stuff (the same way we did.))))))) > > > > One of my favorite car sites now reports the Chinese government seized > Saleen?s factory along with the robots and intellectual property: > > > > > https://www.carscoops.com/2020/08/steve-saleen-claims-chinese-joint-venture-has-stolen-his-intellectual-property/ > > > > This has huge implications: if the Chinese government can seize Saleen?s > factory and IP, they can seize Elon Musk?s factory and IP. If so, the > world can buy Chinese-made Teslas cheaper than Musk can build em in > Fremont. This is a bad thing for the local lads. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 17:24:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:24:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] saleen's company seized >?While this specific instance is news, the trend isn't. Operating a factory in China is always a gamble against their seizing your stuff and becoming a competitor using your tech. They've been doing this kind of thing for ages. >?They have rule of autocrats, more than rule of law? Adrian Ja thanks for that, I think you are right Adrian. Your company is mostly intellectual property, so you have inherent credibility on the riskiness of manufacturing stuff in China (speculating you have considered the benefits/risks of making CubeSat products there.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 17:41:45 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:41:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 10:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Ja thanks for that, I think you are right Adrian. Your company is mostly > intellectual property, so you have inherent credibility on the riskiness of > manufacturing stuff in China (speculating you have considered the > benefits/risks of making CubeSat products there.) > 1) We don't make CubeSats. Our customers make them; we launch them. (We could in theory launch Chinese-made CubeSats, but the US government would likely insist on inspecting them, during import via customs, to make sure they're not weapons.) 2) It's not even a choice for us. Our products are regulated under ITAR precisely to prevent us from seriously considering making them in China (or most other places outside the US), because the US government knows quite well that the Chinese (and several other governments) would rip us off in a heartbeat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 17:46:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 10:46:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> References: <005e01d66d86$7b38e5e0$71aab1a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011401d66dab$d73e2e20$85ba8a60$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: sturgis rolls on >.The annual huge bike rally at Sturgis South Dakota is going forth. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes.Good luck bikers. spike If what I understand about covid is correct, this rally damn sure should be a super-spreader event: https://www.tmz.com/2020/08/08/sturgis-motorcycle-rally-draws-huge-crowd-loc al-bar/ Much of the event is outdoors, lots of burger grilling and beer swilling, outdoor picnic style dining, coat and tie not required, just a bit on the informal side. But there is also plenty of indoor crowded sports-bar-style drinking, cheering at the wet T-shirt contest and so forth, but here's the thing: the authorities can't be blamed. The Sturgis crowd is coming anyway, never mind if the rally is cancelled, no matter if it is illegal. That crowd gives not a damn what the governor or POTUS or the county sheriff thinks (they can't arrest a quarter of a million bikers.) If this rally doesn't cause a big breakout, then I don't understand why. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 18:08:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 11:08:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] saleen's company seized In-Reply-To: References: <00e801d66da3$4e3d8600$eab89200$@rainier66.com> <00f801d66da8$b5658170$20308450$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <013701d66dae$ec0dc1f0$c42945d0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?1) We don't make CubeSats. Our customers make them; we launch them? Adrian Well ja, but if you get the launcher biz all worked out, you will find the same thing the other space companies did: the real money is in the payloads. Reasoning, as the launcher designer, you already know exactly how to test the payloads, how to interface the payload to your launcher, how to minimize weight, how to get the most bang for your customer?s buck and all that, particularly because you can hire locals who have lots of experience who will work cheap because they never found suitable jobs after the 2009 experience in Sunnyvale. The bread is in the bird, not in the nest. Adrian note please: I am not discouraging your efforts, on the contrary, I am encouraging it heartily and cheerfully. Without the nest, there is no bird. Just sayin? if you work out that launcher biz, there are a hundred ways to make money on designing, optimizing and integrating payloads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 8 18:40:59 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2020 11:40:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Spike: > There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers > come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next > week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla > weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. As long as the bikers stay out nursing homes, everything should be fine. Sturgis is just for a few days long and then they will return to their home states and contribute to herd-immunity. The longer the lockdown continues, the more people will develop obesity, diabetes, and other underlying conditions that render them susceptible to the virus as well as put them more at risk of death in general. And if allowed to continue for too long, the lockdown could wind up killing more people than the virus in the long run. Factor in the stress from job-loss, evictions, poverty, depression, suicide, and homelessness and the lockdown itself become a public health nightmare. The virus only kills the susceptible. The lockdown, on the other hand, is killing everybody. The sooner we put this pandemic behind us by way herd-immunity, vaccination, or mass civil-disobedience, the better. Stuart LaForge From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 20:09:52 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:09:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> On Aug 8, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote:? > Quoting Spike: > > >> There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers >> come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next >> week. We science-minded sorts will get some fresh useful data in a coupla >> weeks from tens of thousands of mine-canaries on bikes. > > I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. > > https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes > https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count > > The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. As long as the bikers stay out nursing homes, everything should be fine. Sturgis is just for a few days long and then they will return to their home states and contribute to herd-immunity. The longer the lockdown continues, the more people will develop obesity, diabetes, and other underlying conditions that render them susceptible to the virus as well as put them more at risk of death in general. And if allowed to continue for too long, the lockdown could wind up killing more people than the virus in the long run. Factor in the stress from job-loss, evictions, poverty, depression, suicide, and homelessness and the lockdown itself become a public health nightmare. The virus only kills the susceptible. The lockdown, on the other hand, is killing everybody. > > The sooner we put this pandemic behind us by way herd-immunity, vaccination, or mass civil-disobedience, the better. > > Stuart LaForge A 23% difference in death rate doesn?t seem like the difference between normal and spicy cold to me. They?re almost comparable rates. So, if all bikers were to get the virus and die at that rate from it, it would almost double their death rate. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 20:47:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 13:47:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] sturgis rolls on On Aug 8, 2020, at 11:42 AM, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote:? Quoting Spike: >>>?There is a risk that if there is a huge outbreak at Sturgis, those bikers come from every state in the union and they will be riding back home next week? spike >>?I am hardly surprised, since per capita motorcycle fatalities in 2017 were 59.34 per 100,000. This is more than the fatality rate of COVID-19 here in the U.S. which is 47.9 per 100,000. https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-motorcycle-crashes https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/08/05/899365887/charts-how-the-u-s-ranks-on-covid-19-deaths-per-capita-and-by-case-count >>?The lifestyle/hobby of bikers is more dangerous than the coronavirus so for them, COVID-19 is just a spicy cold. ?Stuart LaForge Stuart, a couple in my own biker group (in their late 60s) caught covid in April. They agree, it completely whooped their asses for about a month, just flattened them both. Even for tough biker dudes and chicks, this is a really bad flu. >?A 23% difference in death rate doesn?t seem like the difference between normal and spicy cold to me. They?re almost comparable rates. So, if all bikers were to get the virus and die at that rate from it, it would almost double their death rate. Regards, Dan OK let?s focus please on a question that has me thinking overtime and triple-time because I have some responsibility for what I recommend. There is no politics involved because the bikers were coming to Sturgis anyway, regardless of who did what. There is no known mechanism for compelling them to quarantine when they return from the rally. You can ask them to, but there?s nothing we can do if they refuse, and plenty of them will refuse. So the lawman is out of the loop for the most part, particularly after they never bothered to try to enforce masks or quarantines on those returning from rioting, burning and looting. That?s different for some reason. OK then, bikers in Sturgis right now, one hell of a lot of em, quarter of a million, looootta lotta close contact, partying, lotta drinking, smoking that wacky terbacky and such as that. Lotta representation in the people in their 60s and 70s, pleeeenty of married couples, so either one catching it will give it to the other. That looks like a recipe for catastrophe. My understanding is that outdoor contact is relatively low-risk compared to indoor contact, but this rally has plenty of both. We could end up with a dataset where we can compare people who were at the same event, some outdoors the whole time (refusing to go inside anywhere (that is one of your options at Stugis)) and those who did the indoor events at every opportunity. There is another reason I am very interested. My own biker group is meeting at Sturgis three weeks from now. We intentionally set our rally for after school starts. The room rate is waaaay lower once the Harley guys leave. I had already decided to not go this year (for reasons unrelated to covid (it was before anyone ever heard of it (too many other obligations with school stuff.))) My biker group is even older on average than the Sturgis crowd. I am the kid at nearly 60. Our leader of the pack turned 80 last month. He wants to go ahead with it. So? we go. With three weeks lead time, if I know how to extract the signal and I do the math right, I aughta be able to offer some guidance to my own biker friends on the wisdom of hitting Sturgis three weeks after the big event. The crowds will be waaaaay down, and we are not hard-drinking types. Drugs are not seen at our events at all. But we are an older and more fragile crowd than the Harley dudes. Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. Help us ExI-wan Kenobi! You?re my only hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 45264 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 8 21:10:01 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 22:10:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on In-Reply-To: <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> References: <20200808114059.Horde.gh9xI3sMQ1d44AUV8xmaWEu@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <46B478A3-3E32-4D92-BD93-D4A280906B55@gmail.com> <01b101d66dc5$1f7fc360$5e7f4a20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 21:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > With three weeks lead time, if I know how to extract the signal and I do the math right, I aughta be able to offer some guidance to my own biker friends on the wisdom of hitting Sturgis three weeks after the big event. The crowds will be waaaaay down, and we are not hard-drinking types. Drugs are not seen at our events at all. But we are an older and more fragile crowd than the Harley dudes. > > Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Well, bikers are not exactly popular with the media and the media enjoy broadcasting the Covid panic, so I would expect any new virus wave to have headlines in every newspaper and TV news channel. No research needed. BillK. From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 8 22:43:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 15:43:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rolls on Message-ID: <002201d66dd5$64899c50$2d9cd4f0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ubject: Re: [ExI] sturgis rolls on On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 at 21:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >>. Do let us put our heads together on this, shall we? There should be a way to find out if the Sturgis rally kicked off a big new wave in a coupla weeks, ja? I know there is plenty of statistical talent here. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >.Well, bikers are not exactly popular with the media and the media enjoy broadcasting the Covid panic, so I would expect any new virus wave to have headlines in every newspaper and TV news channel. No research needed. BillK. _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, On the contrary sir, for part of it: agreed media love to broadcast covid panic, but disagree bikers are not exactly popular. Bikers are generally popular in the mainstream press: we get killed a lot, giving them something exciting to write about, as well as we help supply perfectly good organs, which also results in heartwarming stories by donor recipients. I plan to donate my brain to Alcor, give the usable organs of it to anyone who wants it, and have the rest of the junk fed to the ants. But I digress. The problem with that media approach is that it is too subjective, which is why information coming from the mainstream press isn't particularly useful. They are also generally contradictory. We are told some South Dakota political rally on 4 July resulted in a covid wave but I can't see it. Can you? These numbers are pretty typical of other surrounding states with different policies (South Dakota is filled with Swedish people and they do things there Swedish style (the government didn't demand shutdowns generally.)) They didn't actually say what they meant by "surge," But I grew suspicious when the same outlets claimed the political rally caused a surge in cases but the riots did not. Dubious. How did the virus know which was which? Both events look like a virus playground to me. I did notice South Dakota reports zero recoveries, even though the early cases were back five months ago. I dug a little and discovered what that means: in order to be recorded as recovered, the antibodies must be undetectable. By that reasoning, there are zero recoveries to date, and any fatality with any co-morbidity, such as some drunken Harley rider embedding herself in the grill of a Peterbilt can be counted as a Covid fatality so long as she has detectable covid antibodies (ensuring the local hospital gets paid (do pardon my cynical attitude please (we are harming ourselves and distorting otherwise useful data with that payment model.))) What we need is to create a database of Sturgis-goers, see if we can account for some percentage of them, verify two weeks from now if they were catchers or non-catchers. I know of four people who are now at the rally. Could we organize a Friends-of-Sturgis online effort, create a data deposit site, where we could try to account for them? Then create a control group, ideally in the same age-bracket, of stay-at-homers, calculate a ratio of catchers to non-catchers. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 43929 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 01:54:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 20:54:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus Message-ID: Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, die of. Anyone know? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 02:24:37 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2020 19:24:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My understanding is that a clogged/failing respiratory system, thus inability to breathe, is the primary vector. On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 6:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, > die of. Anyone know? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 18:32:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:32:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41A81DEC-920E-4CED-AA92-04A0DC09339B@gmail.com> Also stroke, heart attack. SR Ballard > On Aug 8, 2020, at 9:24 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > My understanding is that a clogged/failing respiratory system, thus inability to breathe, is the primary vector. > >> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 6:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> Strange that I have not heard what it is that people who die of the virus, die of. Anyone know? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 18:45:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 11:45:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools Message-ID: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> A few days ago I asked BillK how our British friends were doing their schools. As I recall he expressed vague skepticism perhaps. I saw this today. Boris wants the schools open. He doesn?t have the authority to make them open as far as I know (not sure how the British system works (the queen can?t just order off with their heads the way they did back in the old days.)) https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8607987/BORIS-JOHNSON-Keeping-schools-closed-longer-necessary-intolerable.html Sounds like their political system with schools is like the US in a lotta ways. Somehow those British schools teach them to talk like the Beatles. Damned if I can figure out how they do that, but it seems to work somehow. This leaves me with a remaining question. If American kids hafta take English classes, do English kids hafta take American classes? The mind boggles. Actually that wasn?t my remaining question. We are still seeing big numbers in both USA and UK and both countries are facing some pretty similar problems. There aughta be a way to learn from each other. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 18:50:27 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:50:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange seen. I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty extensive: https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 9:25 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > Thanks. Again, I'm out of my element, and will defer to the EXPERTS on > this one! > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020, 8:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat >> >> >> >> >?I have to admit as a layman though that it looked like it could have >> been a ~200K ton nuke when first watching the footage based on the cloud >> and blast radius. I'm glad of course that doesn't appear to be the case? >> Dylan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. >> >> >> >> There was a video of a young lady having a photo-shoot done. There was a >> yellow glow on her dress about a second before the shock wave arrived. >> From the size of the debris and how fast it blew about, along with the >> color of the reflected glow on her dress, all that counter-indicated even a >> really small nuke. >> >> >> >> Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some >> bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer without any intentions of >> bombing Beirut. >> >> >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 19:19:55 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:19:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:59 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Oh my no, a 200 KT nuke would have had a far different signature. * > Yes there was no heat flash as you'd get in even a small nuke, and at most this was a 2.7 KT explosion, and probably half of that. *> Agreed, this is good news that it wasn?t a nuke, and probably just some > bonehead who abandoned all that fertilizer* > It's even worse than that, apparently some mega bonehead decided that the perfect place to store his 40 bags of fireworks we're on top of 2,750 tons of ammonium nitrate! Video shows there are actually two explosions, a smaller one that seems to be the fireworks going off, and then about 20 seconds later a vastly larger explosion. John K Clar > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 20:08:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:08:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious Message-ID: Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 20:42:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 13:42:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] 3 kt? An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange seen. I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty extensive: https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 Hi Dylan, I have some more study and calculation to do, but that site you posted has some really useful info, such as a way to estimate the velocity of that shock wave. I need to study the size of those buildings in the photo to see if I can estimate how far the boat is from the blast, then I can estimate the time it takes the wave to arrive at the boat, to pick off a velocity. Regarding yellow smoke for ammonium nitrate: I would interpret the big reddish column as other stuff burning before the heat ever reached the ammonium nitrate. It wouldn?t be burning NH4NO3, then exploding. I would think the stuff would explode as soon as any of it got hot enough, then that detonates the rest of it. Dunno man. We have some measurements and calculations to do before we know for sure, but it looks consistent with ammonium nitrate to me. Granted 3000 tons of the stuff is a lotta fertilizer. That would take a lotta room to store all that, so it would hafta be a big warehouse. Those are some astonishing videos. Lotsa physics in explosions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 21:20:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com ? >?Actually that wasn?t my remaining question. We are still seeing big numbers in both USA and UK and both countries are facing some pretty similar problems. There aughta be a way to learn from each other?spike Knowing that staying back from school has its own (sometimes severe) costs in quality of life, still I have failed to convince myself to change my stance: it sure looks to me like in-person learning at the high school presents a hell of a risk, and I am unable to recommend it, even though I see the benefits. I hear that young people are less susceptible, sure OK. I accept that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. But I still reject the notion that classroom-filling is anywhere near safe enough with these numbers. I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. Suggestions welcome. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 21:24:47 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 15:24:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] 3 kt? In-Reply-To: <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> References: <018f01d66c4a$dd70df70$98529e50$@rainier66.com> <01fc01d66c54$d756c910$86045b30$@rainier66.com> <010a01d66e8d$9ba11e80$d2e35b80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I've seen the theory floated that Hezbollah were indeed storing missiles next to the confiscated ammonium nitrate ["fireworks", my left gluteus!] because A ) they knew Israel wouldn't hit an arms depot there for fear of setting off the ammonium nitrate and/or B ) the ammonium nitrate was intended to be a component of the missile warheads. Either way, the people of Beirut seem to have some legitimate grievances against their government and their government's violent friends. The one blessing in all of this is that at only ~150 casualties, this could easily have been a /lot/ worse. On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 2:44 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] 3 kt? > > > > An alternative explanation proposing a Hezbollah arms depot. One of the > claims is that ammonium nitrate smoke is yellow, not the reddish/orange > seen. > > > > I'd be interested to hear Spike's thoughts on this thread. It's pretty > extensive: > > > > https://twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1292475515308310530 > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dylan, > > > > I have some more study and calculation to do, but that site you posted has > some really useful info, such as a way to estimate the velocity of that > shock wave. I need to study the size of those buildings in the photo to > see if I can estimate how far the boat is from the blast, then I can > estimate the time it takes the wave to arrive at the boat, to pick off a > velocity. > > > > Regarding yellow smoke for ammonium nitrate: I would interpret the big > reddish column as other stuff burning before the heat ever reached the > ammonium nitrate. It wouldn?t be burning NH4NO3, then exploding. I would > think the stuff would explode as soon as any of it got hot enough, then > that detonates the rest of it. > > > > Dunno man. We have some measurements and calculations to do before we > know for sure, but it looks consistent with ammonium nitrate to me. > Granted 3000 tons of the stuff is a lotta fertilizer. That would take a > lotta room to store all that, so it would hafta be a big warehouse. > > > > Those are some astonishing videos. Lotsa physics in explosions. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sun Aug 9 22:19:10 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 18:19:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 9 22:24:47 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 23:24:47 +0100 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 22:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Knowing that staying back from school has its own (sometimes severe) costs in quality of life, still I have failed to convince myself to change my stance: it sure looks to me like in-person learning at the high school presents a hell of a risk, and I am unable to recommend it, even though I see the benefits. > > I hear that young people are less susceptible, sure OK. I accept that the risk of outdoor transmission is low. But I still reject the notion that classroom-filling is anywhere near safe enough with these numbers. I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. > > _______________________________________________ I think I agree. I would let other schools reopen first and see what the results are. It might be safe, it might not be. What always worries me when experts talk about only 0.1% risk of death is that it is actually 100% for the children who die and 0% for the rest. That might be fine for the risk of catching a cold, but for death - not so good. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 9 23:08:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2020 16:08:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] how is uk handling schools In-Reply-To: References: <00be01d66e7d$30cda840$9268f8c0$@rainier66.com> <011901d66e92$f97f7a10$ec7e6e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014201d66ea2$0b7320a0$225961e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] how is uk handling schools On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 22:23, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I stay with what is now the plurality opinion on our advisory board: when in doubt, keep em out. > > _______________________________________________ >...I think I agree. I would let other schools reopen first and see what the results are. It might be safe, it might not be. What always worries me when experts talk about only 0.1% risk of death is that it is actually 100% for the children who die and 0% for the rest. That might be fine for the risk of catching a cold, but for death - not so good. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK, I agree. We have some data from Georgia just coming in: apparently a school did open and they now have 9 new cases. Your comment about headmasters really rang true. The California governor can order the schools to close but cannot order them to open. The county can likewise set standards unlikely to be met by public schools (private schools can start back up (some are)) which is the functional equivalent of having the authority to order schools closed. But when both of those guys give the go-ahead, the local superintendent and principal (our headmasters) must agree that school is safe before they can be re-stuffed with students who are required to go to school, in some capacity. So... for now, we are bringing the challenged cases back to the classrooms, but it will be about 20% capacity, which is OK in my view, and is likely the best available compromise. Even with that, there is a risk, but we cannot escape risk. As if there are not already enough levels of subtlety and complexity, we are wrestling with what happens if a student is assigned to study at home, then disengages? It is unclear how to call a student to campus after the school year has started. That is not my concern at this point however. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 15:56:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:56:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= Message-ID: Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 16:19:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:19:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark I came to similar conclusions in April, not just because the tests are unreliable but because not everyone gets tested (I still haven?t (fortunately I haven?t perished yet either.)) Furthermore, the results vary so much, the data just doesn?t make sense. The tests done during autopsies are reliable however, for they test for antibodies. Furthermore, the results are far more consistent with each other. Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita. We accept that it introduces uncertainty from the whole WITH vs OF ambiguity, but a reasonable estimate can be made by subtracting average background death rate from 2020 death rate and assume +/- about 20%. Then we assume that these excess fatalities really were covid-related. Granted that the new fatality rate includes increased suicides related to failed businesses, dramatically increased murder rate in the inner cities and so on, but one can argue that those (in a sense) are covid related, if we also argue that the riots are also (indirectly) covid-related (sorta) because the death that kicked off riot season, George Floyd, died with covid. Data jockeys, is the death rate in your state or nation different this year from the average of the last 5 years? By how much? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 16:40:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 09:40:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 9:19 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? John K Clark ? >?Data jockeys, is the death rate in your state or nation different this year from the average of the last 5 years? By how much?...spike This site says in the US, about 860 fatalities per 100k proles: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Since the start of covid, the Worldometer site says 165,766 in the USA have perished of or with covid, so do let us skip the whole ?that?s data from half an hour ago? silliness and just estimate it will be about 170,000 a few minutes from now. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ There is little reason to labor past 2 significant digits for this exercise, for it is an estimate. The USA has a population of about 330 million, so if we take about 170k, divide by 330M, multiply by 100k, I am getting an excess death rate of about 50 fatalties per 100k over the average of about 860, which we can presume is somehow related to covid. So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 17:01:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 10:01:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a001d66f37$ef31efc0$cd95cf40$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. spike Interesting exercise: ask your friends and online contacts to estimate the increase in fatalities from covid. Have them guess at it, not calculate it. Reason: I just asked my bride and my son, first to estimate the background fatality rate. Both said about 1000 per 100k, not bad at all, since the world-data sites say 860. Mortality rates everywhere can be expected at about 1000 per 100k, somewhere around there. What do you think they guessed for the mortality rate this year? First guess what you think they guessed, then here?s the answer: my bride guessed 1500, my son about 1400. So they think covid will increase mortality by about half again over background. I am getting about 6 to 7%. My own bride, who is an engineer, missed by nearly an order of magnitude. I am eager to cut her a little slack, for she is just young enough to never have used a slide rule. Do post to your friends and on-liners, ask them to make a guess please. Fun exercise: see if there is any detectable correlation between their answers and their news sources. Post to your friends who are medics, see if they get closer, and if so, by how much. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 17:03:59 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:03:59 +0100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 at 17:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > This site says in the US, about 860 fatalities per 100k proles: > > https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm > > Since the start of covid, the Worldometer site says 165,766 in the USA have perished of or with covid, so do let us skip the whole ?that?s data from half an hour ago? silliness and just estimate it will be about 170,000 a few minutes from now. > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ > > There is little reason to labor past 2 significant digits for this exercise, for it is an estimate. > > The USA has a population of about 330 million, so if we take about 170k, divide by 330M, multiply by 100k, I am getting an excess death rate of about 50 fatalties per 100k over the average of about 860, which we can presume is somehow related to covid. > > So, we had 860 per 100k-prole before, now in our troubled times we get about 50 more, of or with covid. This epidemic increased our death rate by around 6 to 7%, somewhere in that range. > > UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us? > > spike > _______________________________________________ This might help - Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19 Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Updated August 5, 2020 ------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 18:08:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:08:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d66f41$32159180$9640b480$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > UKers, and others, what happens if you do the same calculus with your state or nation? Henry, please can you do this for your neighborhood (Brazil?) and BillK please? Have we Italians among us?... spike > _______________________________________________ This might help - Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19 Provisional Death Counts for Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) Updated August 5, 2020 ------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! Looks like somewhere in the 10% range is fairly typical, some states doing pretty well. What happens if we take the Johns Hopkins data and repeat with UK? Can we use about 1000 fatalities /kprole as a baseline there? If so, I see the Statista site, which I have found very reliable, is saying UK is suffering about 70 fatalities per 100k, so that 7%-ish excess fatalities estimate works there too. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1111779/coronavirus-death-rate-europe-by-country/ Has anyone asked friends and online acquaintances to estimate the impact of covid on overall fatality rate? Has anyone gotten a number that looks anything like 6 to 7%? If I use the Johns Hopkins site and go for total world deaths, and use the 1000 fatalities per kprole estimate, I am getting about 10 covid excess fatalities per 100k population or about a 1% increase. This number is rising as Brazil is being hammered brutally (and they don't even have an economic incentive to over-report.) Have your friends estimate that excess rate in Europe, in the US, then the planet please, then report your results. This should be interesting. spike From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:12:30 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:12:30 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools Message-ID: To reopen this fall, the average school district will spend more than $1.77 million to cover costs, such as cleaning, staff to help implement health and safety protocols, and personal protective equipment. ----------------------- The article includes a list of what they are spending money on, so might be helpful for reopening. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:25:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:25:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote *Subject:* [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >> > > *I came to similar conclusions in April, * > Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus. *> Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita.* > But you won't even accept that evidence that this pandemic is serious business, you'll just say the excess deaths were caused not by the virus but by people dying from a broken heart because liberals forced them to shut down their businesses. It seems there are no logical contortions some people will not undergo if that's what it takes to avoid changing their worldview in any way. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:29:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:29:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Physics of the explosion Message-ID: https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=86b34a9516-briefing-dy-20200810&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-86b34a9516-44834745 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 18:36:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:36:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <007b01d66f34$f79a5ec0$e6cf1c40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 1:15 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: This might help - > > Thanks, and yes that certainly does help. So the theory that the pandemic has not increased the overall death rate joins the Luminiferous Aether, the Phlogiston theory of heat, Lysenko's genetics, and other non-viable ideas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 18:41:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 11:41:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201d66f45$edb8dbf0$c92a93d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 11:13 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] Cost of reopening schools >...To reopen this fall, the average school district will spend more than $1.77 million to cover costs, such as cleaning, staff to help implement health and safety protocols, and personal protective equipment. ----------------------- The article includes a list of what they are spending money on, so might be helpful for reopening. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! We are rassling with the same questions here, such as: If the schools do not reopen, will the California taxpayers enjoy a rebate of half their funds? BillK, your countryman Mr. Jeeves offers a hint on that: http://www.frockflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/StephenFry-Jeeves1.gif No, sir. Our powerful teachers union wishes to be paid, regardless of whether or not they are actually instructing live students. There is a chance the teachers will go on strike however, for the union chief is demanding the school districts contribute to the global warming fund. The superintendent is writhing and groveling: Oh please oh please, teaching staff do not go on strike, anything but that ok maybe just for a month or three we will say nice things about you to your successors. So... there is that tantalizing possibility of steep a reduction in expenses, however I don't see it happening. Even in the event of a teacher walkout, Mr. Jeeves thinks a tax rebate as most unlikely. If you will pardon me, I am off to the local high school to help distribute textbooks. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:02:46 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:02:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol and evolution was just curious Message-ID: Henry Rivera wrote: > >I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? I would be surprised if there is much of a correlation. However, there is a strong correlation between the length of time a population has been exposed to alcohol and the number of people who are adversely affected by it. Races who have been exposed for thousands of years tend to be resistant, and in some cases, we know why right down to the genetic level. Asian peoples very often have a defective dehydrogenase gene so they can't clear the alcohol very fast and get quite sick if they have more than one or two drinks. The French seem to have a high tolerance for the stuff. The peoples who got agriculture (and alcohol) more recently, Irish and Russians, for example, have more problems with it. Native Americans are badly affected, the classic case being the Navahoes. Greenland natives are about 95% alcoholics. If they have it, they can't control their use of it. Makes sense, of course. Being an alcoholic is not good for your genes. Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 20:48:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:48:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Alcohol and evolution was just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Funny- I have read some about the French and their attitude towards alcohol. They raise their children with, at first, very diluted wine, slowly undiluting it as they grow older. Their attitude towards alcoholics is scorn. When I was there the issue of drinking too much came up and one person pointed South, towards Italy, and said that if I wanted problem drinkers I had to look no further than the Italians. The grass may be greener on the other side of the fence, but the people are always inferior. Eysenck's data shows strong correlations between sedation threshold and introversion/extroversion. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 3:05 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Henry Rivera wrote: > > > >I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. > > > On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between > introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? > > I would be surprised if there is much of a correlation. > > However, there is a strong correlation between the length of time a > population has been exposed to alcohol and the number of people who > are adversely affected by it. > > Races who have been exposed for thousands of years tend to be > resistant, and in some cases, we know why right down to the genetic > level. Asian peoples very often have a defective dehydrogenase gene > so they can't clear the alcohol very fast and get quite sick if they > have more than one or two drinks. The French seem to have a high > tolerance for the stuff. The peoples who got agriculture (and > alcohol) more recently, Irish and Russians, for example, have more > problems with it. > > Native Americans are badly affected, the classic case being the > Navahoes. Greenland natives are about 95% alcoholics. If they have > it, they can't control their use of it. > > Makes sense, of course. Being an alcoholic is not good for your genes. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Aug 10 20:51:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Physics of the explosion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-10 11:29, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/?utm_source=Nature+Briefing&utm_campaign=86b34a9516-briefing-dy-20200810&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c9dfd39373-86b34a9516-44834745 I like to strip unnecessary tags, especially utm_*. https://www.wired.com/story/tragic-physics-deadly-explosion-beirut/ -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Mon Aug 10 22:16:23 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 18:16:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more I?m sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t accessible and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the moment to summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if they think the group would be interested. https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 -Henry >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera wrote: >> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >> >>>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ? >>> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 10 22:38:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 17:38:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Thank you for your time, Henry. I'll read and report. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:18 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more I?m > sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t accessible > and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the moment to > summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if they think > the group would be interested. > > > https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 > > https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis > > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ > > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 > > -Henry > > On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera > wrote: > >> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >> >> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> ? >> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between >> introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 10 22:42:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 15:42:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 11:26 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 12:21 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? I came to similar conclusions in April, Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? I agree with that. I have never seen testing as an effective tool for this. I haven?t seen these tests available at the drug store. I don?t even know where I would get one. Even if I could, I don?t know how we would protect against counterfeit test kits. Do you? >>? Conclusion: the number that counts is the fatalities per capita. >?But you won't even accept that evidence that this pandemic is serious business? I do accept that this pandemic is serious business. >? you'll just say the excess deaths were caused not by the virus but by people dying from a broken heart? I am not saying that. We can assume the excess deaths in 2020 were caused by covid. I have no argument with it. >?because liberals forced them to shut down their businesses? I didn?t say anything about that because I have no indications on the political leanings of the county health departments and principals who made those calls. They aren?t elected officials. I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill Gates, the people who are making and selling covid test kits or the people deciding if it is safe to open the schools, the final decision being that of the principal. The principal and I have never discussed politics, so I have no idea where he is on that. I never discussed political matters with the superintendent either. Everything isn?t politics. Sometimes it isn?t an opportunity, it really is only a crisis. >?It seems there are no logical contortions some people will not undergo if that's what it takes to avoid changing their worldview in any way? John K Clark Nothing I have seen in this dataset challenges my world view in the least. I agree fast tests are good. I don?t know where to get those. Do you? Do tell. Regardless of fast test or no test, the number we need to watch in order to make the call on schools will be fatalities per capita. That one isn?t subject to the whims of who tests and who does not. The coroner tests every customer, and all she needs to do is find antibodies to consider her customer a covid death. That kit is highly reliable and there are enough of them. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:09:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:09:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE Message-ID: *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* *bill w* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:26:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:26:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] just curious In-Reply-To: References: <0881BC94-68DB-4A0C-ADF1-0EE35DF61809@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Report on Henry's articles: while all were interesting, and some correlations were found between alcohol use and personality, there were no data on the sedation threshold - which is to just how much alcohol does it take to get to a certain degree of drunkenness, which is what my original question was about. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:38 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > Thank you for your time, Henry. I'll read and report. bill w > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:18 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I found these articles and a chapter on this topic. And there are more >> I?m sure. I can probably get full versions if any of these aren?t >> accessible and you want to read the full text. I don?t have time at the >> moment to summarize these for the group, but anyone can feel free to if >> they think the group would be interested. >> >> >> https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/predictors-of-multiple-substance-use-in-alcohol-dependence-the-role-ofpersonality-2155-6105-1000258.php?aid=67771 >> >> https://www.truity.com/book/interesting-research-big-five >> >> >> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5801117_Alcohol_Involvement_and_the_Five-Factor_Model_of_Personality_A_Meta-Analysis >> >> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447572/ >> >> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11469-013-9445-2 >> >> -Henry >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 5:19 PM Henry Rivera >> wrote: >> >>> I think I have seen research on this. I?ll look for it on Monday. >>> >>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 4:09 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> Does anyone, including Henry, know about the relationship between >>> introversion/extroversion and alcohol consumption? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:50:39 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:50:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used > against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the > police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, > that is one of the things we need to change. > > ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not concerned about rubber bullets. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:57:06 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:57:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have a link to the underlying data? On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn > statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are > allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of > Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. > Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that > has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking > mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning > the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All > of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties > wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily > COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear > decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says > that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. > ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening > the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* > > *bill w* > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 01:58:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 21:58:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] #RebootThePolice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 18, 2020 at 8:44 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: after being a cop for about two years [elided] He was convicted and sent > to prison > ### This tells us something about the system, no? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 02:08:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:08:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007101d66f84$541ad860$fc508920$@rainier66.com> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: Covidiots for Science: Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that has turned the state into a ?natural experiment? bill w Cases like this do provide useful data. We should be focusing a lot of attention on how to collect it, how to interpret it, how to use it for the questions which remain, specifically about when or if to reopen schools, and if so, will masks help, etc. We will get another useful dataset soon, with regard to schools: some of them open this week in California. Our local high school will not open, but we had registration today, where I volunteered to help direct traffic, distribute texts, disrupt major felonies, that sorta thing. Might be a minor spreader event. That bike rally sure looks to me like it should be a super-spreader event, but I fear we are failing to collect useful data from it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:25:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:25:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:02 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *If Trump wins US astronauts will probably walk on the Moon before the >> end of the decade. [...] If Trump loses, good bye Artemis and the hope to >> return to the Moon.* > > > Good. At this point in our technological development I see little point in > sending astronauts to the moon and even less to Mars. > ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. I would consider emigrating to the Moon if cryonic suspension was available there. In the polar regions there are cold traps with stable subsurface temperatures estimated at 38K. This is a potentially highly stable, long-term protected burial space for people interested in the far future. An important issue is the potential for rapid sociological change that could be achieved on the Moon by self-selection and controlled immigration into new political entities only weakly associated with telluric powers. Our enemies' assaults would be thwarted by space and distance while we proceed with the transformations Extropians have dreamed of for a long time. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlatorra at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:27:16 2020 From: mlatorra at gmail.com (Michael LaTorra) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 20:27:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki - Exactly right. Videos show a lot of violence coming from those supposedly "peaceful" protesters. Mike L. On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:51 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used >> against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the >> police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, >> that is one of the things we need to change. >> >> ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist > militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country > in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not > concerned about rubber bullets. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:33:16 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 22:33:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Urban density and coronavirus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 4:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: USA, Brazil and the UK, and all three have a similar type of leader right > now, totalitarian and dumb. > ### That's dumb. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 02:57:49 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 19:57:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? Message-ID: When people cite numbers as to how many have died from COVID-19, I wish you would qualify it with "so far." The thing which has driven most of the response is the future prospects and not the current death or infection rates. Keith From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:03:24 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:03:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] It is troubling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 5:18 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's very troubling to see scientists overtly wading into politics lately > between this and that idiotic #defundSTEM movement, and top tier > publications like Nature and Science carrying water for them. > ### It is very troubling. There used to be a time when STEM scientists were reluctant to wade into politics, the occasional Manhattan Project notwithstanding. Now it seems that the corruption that started in the English lit and sociology departments and swept over college administration now is infecting STEM. They say that power corrupts. I think they have it ass-backwards: Power attracts the corrupt. The corrupt corrupt everything they touch. The state in its pure, halcyon days had a bit of power, attracted the corrupt and it was corrupted. As it became corrupt it amassed more power, because the corrupt desire it more than anything. As its power spreads, it engulfs and corrupts greater areas in the flesh of our society. Scientists acquired a taste for the polluted monies printed by the corrupt, and so became corrupt as well. Now the corrupt are speaking out loud, and the timid timidly go along, hoping to be spared for the time being. You notice the repetitive cadence of my writing. It alludes to the waves of decay that reverberate through the telluric realms, always battering at our minds. The decay seems to be a bit worse than usual. Will it be repaired or will it feedback into death and destruction? Hard to tell. It is troubling. The Moon beckons. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:18:50 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:18:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] school proposal In-Reply-To: References: <003d01d64960$b28d48a0$17a7d9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 4:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am in Central Mississippi. I did read this morning that Alabama was one > of the states reporting higher rates of infections. But it's going to be > all over if people won't wash their hands and use masks. Experts say that > we are still in the first phase and are getting impatient way too soon. > ### Our experts know that masks are just for show: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/07/fauci-throws-pitch-start-major-league-baseball-season-200723222152020.html but when they forget people are still watching they take them off: https://techstartups.com/2020/07/24/dr-fauci-seen-not-wearing-mask-washington-nationals-game-lecturing-us-wear-face-mask-public-areas/ There is absolutely no evidence that procedural masks, much less the stupid cloth masks, meaningfully reduce Wuhan virus spread, except in some select situations. Now, interestingly, as Americans in their sheeple-like masses achieved 95% mask compliance, Wuhan infection cases skyrocketed. Coincidence? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 03:58:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:58:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Masked heroes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 6:56 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > spike jones Wrote: > > > *USA is big number 9 if we go by death rates per capita.* > > > Given the recent explosively huge COVID-19 Infection rate spike I think > there is little to no chance of that number remaining as low as 9 for long. > > ### Now a month and a half later, the US is.... at #8. Interestingly, Sweden, that lawless nest of science-deniers, has half the total confirmed per capita cases of the US, which is home of the heroes who bravely venture to the grocery store wearing their silly masks. Rafal Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:01:13 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:01:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Russians bots at work again? In-Reply-To: References: <20200627224022.Horde.bQy9bA5r_S7kb8A23jcIbrQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:48 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Yes, but also because Putin wants to keep his puppet stooge in power for > at least the next 4 years, and after that Don Junior could take over and > start a dynasty. > ### This is dumb. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:03:15 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:03:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] just a idea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I wonder what the reaction would be if they remade the movie Gone With The > Wind with an all black cast except for three or four sweet but stupid white > submissive slaves used for comic relief. > ### There would be no riots. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:18:07 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:18:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Japanese mystery: why so few COVID cases? In-Reply-To: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 10:30 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > https://www.embopress.org/doi/10.15252/emmm.202012481?fbclid=IwAR3YClOFxx3Vy6hOD0VqLCynrTxRQxrUigVvLfMhkxRqHPxST9VdEhGWSlk& > > --------------Excerpt------------------------------------------ > Despite early exposure, its dense and aging population, and little > social distancing measures, Japan reports low infection and low death > from COVID?19. Here, we speculate on and discuss the possible reasons > that may account for this anomaly. > > There is a lot of interest brewing as to why Japan has such low > numbers of confirmed infected cases of the COVID?19 disease, caused by > the SARS?CoV?2 virus (Fig 1), despite its high population density > (over 6,100 persons/sqkm in Tokyo, 2.4 times higher than New York > City) and large percentage of high?risk individuals over 65 years of > age (about 26%, compared with 15% in the USA). In Singapore and Hong > Kong, rapid and strict quarantine rules and contact tracing have > helped to ?flatten the curve?. In South Korea, mass testing and > quarantine measures appear to have reduced the rate of new cases. > However, Japan has not engaged in expansive testing, contact tracing, > or strict quarantine measures and yet is reporting a slow growth rate > of infected persons and a death rate that is currently just 1/10th of > world average. It is difficult to make direct comparison of infection > rates, because the number of tests per capita varies dramatically > between countries. However, this low death rate cannot be simply > explained by lack of testing or reporting, as no surge in death from > respiratory syndromes has been reported either. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is it due to differences in the prevalence of underlying conditions? > This one has me stumped. > > ### Graphs of per capita cumulative infections and deaths on https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&casesMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=~USA&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc are incredibly interesting. Why are there orders of magnitude differences between countries that are presumably providing reasonably honest statistics, so we are talking about actual differences rather than fakery? There is hardly any pattern - high-density population, mask wearing, lockdowns don't seem to be correlated to outcomes, or at least are swamped by other, order of magnitude more powerful factors. Race may play a role - South-East Asians, the Han, seem to be doing much better on average, than Europeans and Africans outside of Africa. But even among Europeans there are enormous differences that are hard to pin on something specific. My guess is that there are regional differences in the rates of pre-existing immunity to Covid-19, driven by rates of prevalent coronavirus infections, and perhaps by race. There are some genetic determinants of response to coronavirus infections. That's why the Japanese can survive their metro while the New Yorkers get wiped out in theirs. My Nebula account told me I don't have the protective alleles, so my personal genetic risk of being harmed by the Wuhan virus is slightly above average. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 04:22:10 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 00:22:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Japanese mystery: why so few COVID cases? In-Reply-To: References: <20200628192720.Horde.o9SL4g8UBTv7dHXkhz4yKRS@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6D2D891E-6234-4A78-BE18-42C24D84CEDA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 6:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 11:23 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> >> *> Well, there are some differences: - masks are more than socially >> acceptable, they are socially required in this situation. * > > > And the USA is the only country in the world In which wearing a virus > preventing mask has become part of the culture wars, and is the only > country in which the president makes a point of not setting an example and > never being photographed wearing one because he thinks everything is about > him and wearing such a medical mask is a political statement of disapproval > of him personally. > ### US has one of the highest rates of mask use in the world *and* had one of the biggest post-lockdown infection spikes in the world. What does that tell you about Trump and Americans, John? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:07:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:07:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] steve's research In-Reply-To: <009101d6547b$f2ba3b10$d82eb130$@rainier66.com> References: <009101d6547b$f2ba3b10$d82eb130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 12:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > > > >?He was an occasional poster here for a long time? BillW I regret you > never had a chance to meet him. > > > > spike > > > > > > Correction to previous, Steve van Sickle was an occasional ExI poster a > long time ago. I don?t recall his posting here for perhaps 15 yrs now, but > he was on the local cryonics forum. > > > > Steve?s research was in gas infusion into tissues as a means of preserving > kidneys and other transplantable organs. > ### I am sorry to hear Steve died. I listened to his presentation on cold pressurized helium persufflation as a means of cryopreserving without toxic levels of cryoprotectants and I was very excited about the research. Did his company Arigos get anything done? Their website is still up but only a placeholder. Last mention I found of any research being done was from 2018 - pig kidneys recovered from -120C. It's a pity this project didn't get the support it needed. I had high hopes. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:18:58 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:18:58 +0200 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:26 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 8:02 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 3:02 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >>> > If Trump wins US astronauts will probably walk on the Moon before the end of the decade. [...] If Trump loses, good bye Artemis and the hope to return to the Moon. >> >> >> Good. At this point in our technological development I see little point in sending astronauts to the moon and even less to Mars. > > > ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. > > I would consider emigrating to the Moon if cryonic suspension was available there. In the polar regions there are cold traps with stable subsurface temperatures estimated at 38K. This is a potentially highly stable, long-term protected burial space for people interested in the far future. > > An important issue is the potential for rapid sociological change that could be achieved on the Moon by self-selection and controlled immigration into new political entities only weakly associated with telluric powers. Our enemies' assaults would be thwarted by space and distance while we proceed with the transformations Extropians have dreamed of for a long time. > > Rafal I think some more years of government funding are needed before private space becomes self-sustaining and independent of government funding. If so, we are at a critical moment and what happens in the next few months could accelerate or delay human space expansion by decades. If not, then I hope Musk Bezos &co. will use their money to go to the Moon and Mars without the government. But I'm somewhat skeptical. From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 05:25:46 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:25:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] how long will this go on? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 11:02 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Jul 11, 2020, at 7:33 AM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The first phase of a Marxist revolution is erasing history writ large and > small, with struggle sessions in store for anyone who disagrees. > > There's a method to this madness. > > > You really see this as a Marxist revolution? > ### Clearly it is a Marxist power grab. I know. I grew up under a Marxist government. It will go on until they break us all, or they are broken. As comrade Lenin wrote " You probe with bayonets: if you find mush, you push. If you find steel, you withdraw." Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 06:01:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 02:01:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:27 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I find objecting to "cultural appropriation" ridiculous. What this > means is that the population of those who "appropriate" find some > aspect (meme) of the originating culture attractive. ### "Cultural appropriation" does not refer to an idea whose merits may be rationally discussed. It's just a verbal distraction used by psychopaths who want to attack a person they need to weaken or destroy. Groups of status-maximizing psychopaths need to coordinate their attacks. They come up with seemingly inane terms of opprobrium that are then used by members of the group to maintain cohesion and to exclude others. Orthodox communists would accuse an enemy of being bourgeois, being kulak or having a Trotskyist deviation, a Buharinovist deviation or whatever. The targets would be then destroyed by a coordinated action. Then new accusations would be invented against other groups or factions, always keeping the meat grinders churning. If you are targeted by this form of attack, never engage its surface content. Do not argue what is or isn't cultural appropriation, do not try to reason with them. If you have the power, attack the persons who are attacking you, not their words. If you are weak, run away. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 06:23:27 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 02:23:27 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 1:12 PM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Indeed. Looked at on a geological timescale, the size of the hominid > braincase at birth basically inflated like a balloon, incredibly quickly, > right up to the point where it started to cause non-trivial infant > mortality increases. > > It has all the hallmarks of the same kind of "arms-race" > sexual-selection-based positive feedback loops that created other > ridiculously outsized anatomical features in other species, just like > peacock tails. > ### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that triggered the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the ability to learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were a downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. See "The secret of our success" by Joseph Henrich. In this interpretation, knowledge, and the intelligence needed to use, are directly fitness-enhancing. Our success is due to stumbling on a method for greatly accelerating the acquisition of knowledge by substituting group and memetic learning mechanisms for individual and genetic ones. This is different from the notion of IQ as a mere fitness marker that evolved solely due to sexual selection. A peacock's tail is a marker that decreases individual survival of the male while increasing female fitness by allowing them to concentrate their mating resources on the males most likely to sire healthy offspring. A man's or a woman's intelligence are however not just for show - they allow us to continually adapt to new ecological niches, thus dramatically enhancing fitness. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:09:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:09:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Ancient & Viable In-Reply-To: <778E10F6-1F77-41C7-BA79-FC4B46503562@gmail.com> References: <778E10F6-1F77-41C7-BA79-FC4B46503562@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:13 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > TITLE: Deep sea microbes dormant for 100 million years are hungry and > ready to multiply > > https://phys.org/news/2020-07-deep-sea-microbes-dormant-million.html > > > Basically, the title says it all. Pretty cool, huh? > > ### But very surprising, to the point of suggesting other interpretations. RNA hydrolyses over short spans of time. The half-life of cytosine is 17,000 years. It is just not possible for an organism at non-cryogenic temperature to maintain the integrity of its RNA over geological timespans without metabolism needed to repair. The microbes must have been running at least DNA repair and some RNA and protein synthesis, if not cell division, to maintain their viability. Maybe there are burrowing animals that mix the sediments, or there is enough nutrient and oxygen diffusion to keep them alive. Definitely not 100 million year old cells lying dormant and then just springing back to life. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:14:40 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 03:14:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Reprehensible me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:16 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I think Rafal has a lot of reprehensible stances but he is more polite > here than you and generally a nicer person to have a conversation with. > ### Your comment is much appreciated (not being ironic here). But, out of curiosity, which ones of my stances do you find reprehensible? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 07:29:15 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:29:15 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I sent a picture that was too big for the list's settings, but here it is online: https://giulioprisco.com/cultural-appropriation-8ab5025369fb On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 5:27 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > > I find objecting to "cultural appropriation" ridiculous. What this > means is that the population of those who "appropriate" find some > aspect (meme) of the originating culture attractive. > > Having elements of your culture spread into other cultures is by > objective measure desirable or at least it has been the standard by > which humans advanced their control over the world ever since whatever > date you want to assign as the origin of the species. > > In the context of the thread that brought this to mind, the flow of > elements of culture has been much larger in the opposite direction. > Consider breeding and riding horses, widely practiced by native tribes > and absolutely an import from the Spanish. Or consider sheep, > critical to the Navajo way of life. Are motor vehicles rejected by > natiave Americans as foreign culture? Nope. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:18:55 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:18:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I am above that sort of > pettiness so I won't say it: > > Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so > > > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. By "floating" delaying election he made sure that Demotards would publicly and vehemently refuse to consider delaying elections, even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too significant to ignore anymore. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:36:53 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 01:36:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:20 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> A lesser man would say "I told you so" but I am above that sort of >> pettiness so I won't say it: >> >> Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so >> >> >> > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. By "floating" delaying election he > made sure that Demotards would publicly and vehemently refuse to consider > delaying elections, even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too > significant to ignore anymore. > It does not seem credible to suggest the Democrats would attempt to delay the election even if Biden and his VP pick were to die (of natural causes, of assassination, or whatever). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 08:40:53 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 04:40:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Has anyone here (aside from me) read _The Myth of the Rational Voter_? > ### I did and I think I recommended it here on the list. I am almost ready to do something irrational - actually vote this year. I have never voted, for ideological reasons and out of rational considerations, and I posted on the list about it a few times. Now however I am getting too angry to stay reasonable. Enemy attacks on my chosen country are so vicious and frenzied I want to express my anger in some concrete way, and a vote in a swing state fits the bill. As it is, I am nowadays staying in North Carolina, so voting here gives me a 1/6,800,000 chance of defeating the enemies. But maybe reason will prevail and I won't vote, as usual. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:05:19 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:05:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 6:46 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Not necessarily. I've heard various arguments that suggest religion > confers some sort of evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be > very convincing; > ### The ancient Greeks lost faith in their gods, started murdering their children, especially their daughters. They got conquered by the ancient Romans, for lack of hoplites. The Romans lost faith in their gods, started killing their children and soon the Vandals had their way with the leftovers, for lack of legions. Some weirdo Romans started worshipping the god of the Jews, who is displeased by killing children, and presto, those Romans made it through, proselytized, and spread. Some of the offshoots of that spread, like the Irish and the Poles, were doing well in the breeding department but then they lost faith in the god of the Jews, and bam, fertility dropped like a stone. Or take those Iranians - from 6 children per devout Muslima 50 years ago to 1 point something per faithless modern Iranian girl. Doesn't look like a coincidence to me. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:13:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:13:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 2:36 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. > ### ? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:16:58 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:16:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Supervision In-Reply-To: References: <_tPMgAWziL7v6UJi2hVl4-rjNkNR2QgYkIScyCVzXFslQ0bv6G5w_L8h4ws_x4dDOxOTbziL-0Hre4sdiZJVLcaMnrSGPM9H4MSmBescmrU=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 11:16 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Sounds very good to me. You will find very, very high support for > excising all political posts, not just the ones from John. I would support > kicking him out entirely. He is very obsessive, and as I have told Spike, > I don't really think he can stop it. (yes, I am a psychologist). > ### His TDS is just off the scale but otherwise he is a solid guy. No banning John. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:30:34 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:30:34 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 18:44, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 3:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone here (aside from me) read _The Myth of the Rational Voter_? >> > > ### I did and I think I recommended it here on the list. > > I am almost ready to do something irrational - actually vote this year. I > have never voted, for ideological reasons and out of rational > considerations, and I posted on the list about it a few times. Now however > I am getting too angry to stay reasonable. Enemy attacks on my chosen > country are so vicious and frenzied I want to express my anger in some > concrete way, and a vote in a swing state fits the bill. > > As it is, I am nowadays staying in North Carolina, so voting here gives me > a 1/6,800,000 chance of defeating the enemies. > > But maybe reason will prevail and I won't vote, as usual. > What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single vote does not count much? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:50:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:50:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:57 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs > that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five > would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and > valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be > valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. > -Henry ### The Big Five is not a complete description of human personality. It's just the kind of structure that you can observe in a large body of statements that people make in response to questions about their behavior. There are many types of information about personality that is highly relevant to social functioning but is very difficult to elicit on a questionnaire. This is why psychologists come up with new specialized scores, like narcissism scores or the Hexaco dimensions. In my mind there is no doubt that there is a lot more to be discovered about personality. I just bought the H Factor book on Kindle. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 09:55:34 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:55:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <20200805165614.Horde.Q19SLIX98m8p6m64XywPQLH@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 11:15 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > By the way I just ran across an interesting statistic, during the past > month 1.9 million Americans have tested positive for COVID-19, that's *OVER > FIVE TIMES* as much as *ALL* of Europe and Australia and Canada and South > Korea and Japan *COMBINED*! Therefore it may not be entirely unreasonable > to conclude that maybe just maybe the USA is doing something a teeny tiny > bit wrong. > ### This is just dumb. You notice I am not arguing, just sharing my opinion, no? There is a reason for my brevity. The block capitalized letters hurt the eyes too. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:07:38 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:07:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Do your own research In-Reply-To: References: <01a901d66c20$ebc444b0$c34cce10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:34 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Did you see this 2 weeks ago, written by 25 SWEDISH DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS > ? > > > https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/21/coronavirus-swedish-herd-immunity-drove-up-death-toll-column/5472100002/ > > ?Sweden has a death toll greater than the United States: 564 deaths per > million inhabitants compared with 444, as of July 27.? > > I haven?t looked up where we are today. > ### US 492, Sweden still 570. Regrettably, the US is still going strong and we will overtake Sweden, in about 25 days just by eyeballing the curves. As I mentioned before, playing with the graphs at https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&interval=total&aligned=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA~SWE&pickerMetric=location&pickerSort=asc is very eye-opening. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:10:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:10:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:11 AM John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and >>> is basically a good idea, >>> >> >> > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great >> again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* >> > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I > specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing > the police*". > > ### Well, dunno. Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the police actually *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is". Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:25:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:25:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:30 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic > > > Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the > country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about > #987. > ### They move the Overton window to the left. That's why they exist - working hand in hand with Democratic establishment, and at the same time fundamentally transforming it. The Bolsheviks were not numerous but they were bolder than others. The vanguard of the proletariat. History repeats itself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:32:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:32:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 6:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >> > > > > Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, >> and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates >> is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the >> USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days >> to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts >> of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical >> value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? > > *> I agree with that. * > You do?! > *> I have never seen testing as an effective tool for this.* > Then you don't agree with that, you have just read the headline and not the article because Gates talks about how testing is an effective tool for preventing the virus spread IF it is not conducted in a bungled manner as the US has done. Well OK, he doesn't use the word "bungled", he's much too diplomatic for that, but it's perfectly clear what he means. * > I haven?t seen these tests available at the drug store. * > I haven't seen such a test in a drugstore either, at least not in a drugstore in the USA. > I don?t even know where I would get one. > Trump knows where to get them, he sees such virus tests every single day. Before anybody can come into contact with Trump in the White House they must first take such a test. Professional sports teams have use of such tests too, but of course the common people do not, at least not unless the common people live in a more advanced country like South Korea or Japan or Australia or.... > *Do you?* Yes I do. The European Union has approved and has been using three different rapid COVID-19 tests as early as March: Why is the US so far behind on rapid testing for Covid-19? > *I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill > Gates,* > Bill Gates has always been very diplomatic and apolitical (a bit too much in my humble opinion), however in this most recent interview I detect an undercurrent of exasperation, it's not much but it's the most I've ever seen from him; nevertheless the man is smart as hell and I really think it would be worth your time to read the article. Perhaps Norman Borlaug could have beaten him but I don't believe any human being alive today has saved more lives than Bill Gates has, he's worth listening to. *>Nothing I have seen in this dataset challenges my world view in the > least. * > And I am not surprised in the least. I don't think ANYTHING can change your worldview, not EVER, regardless of what new evidence comes to light. And I think Thomas Bayes would not approve. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:46:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:46:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Trump suggests delaying the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:21 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: Trump floats delaying election despite lack of authority to do so >> >> >> > > ### Trump achieved troll level 11 here. > Rafal I'm sincerely curious, when Trump threatened to ignore the election results if it doesn't turn out the way he wants, did that bother you at all? On January 20, 2021 would you be at least a little bit apprehensive? *> even if Biden's mental deterioration becomes too significant to ignore > anymore.* Person, woman, man, camera, TV. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:48:08 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:48:08 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single > vote does not count much? > >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 10:58:37 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 06:58:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:33 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 6:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Bill Gates on Covid: Most US Tests Are ?Completely Garbage? >>> >> >> >> >> Spike, I wish you'd read the entire interview, and not just the headline, >>> and tell me if you agree with Bill Gates or not. I certainly do! Gates >>> is not saying all Colvin 19 tests are garbage, just those conducted by the >>> USA, because regardless of how accurate the test may be if it takes 10 days >>> to two weeks to get the results, and not 15 minutes as in most other parts >>> of the world, then the tests are, although perhaps of some historical >>> value, completely useless as a tool for slowing the spread of the virus? >> >> ### The tests we use at my hospital come back in 45 minutes. Is it good enough for you? If an article starts with "Despite having the highest infection rate in the world, the US....", you know it's garbage. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 11:19:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:19:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:25 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that triggered > the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the ability to > learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were a > downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. * > I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however there must be something special about humans because only they have developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. It's not entirely clear what Evolutionary forces caused humans to walk upright, but whatever it was the paleontological evidence is clear that it happened before the explosive growth of brain size of our Hominid ancestors. Intelligence is expensive, about 20% of the bodies energy is use just to operate the brain and I think there is a limit on how much increased survival value you get from intelligence if you don't have arms and hands they can manipulate things, A zebra couldn't make or throw a spear even if it was as smart as Einstein, but 3 million years ago Lucy could walk upright almost as well as you were I can, but her brain was no larger than that of a chimpanzee. And it was at that point evolution went into high gear and the brain size of her species started to grow very very swiftly. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:38:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:38:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Premium TRUE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, no. That's the entire feed. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:58 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Do you have a link to the underlying data? > > On Mon, Aug 10, 2020, 9:10 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *Covidiots for Science:* Kansas Governor Laura Kelly ordered masks worn >> statewide to fight the coronavirus starting July 3 ? but counties are >> allowed to opt out. Only 15 counties, representing about two-thirds of >> Kansas?s population, adopted the mandate; the other 90 counties didn?t. >> Kansas Department of Health and Environment Secretary Lee Norman says that >> has turned the state into a ?natural experiment,? with the counties lacking >> mask mandates acting as a control group. ?The experimental group is winning >> the battle,? said Dr. Norman, a former U.S. Air Force flight surgeon. ?All >> of the improvement in the case development comes from those counties >> wearing masks.? A chart comparing the seven-day rolling average of daily >> COVID-19 cases shows the stark difference masks are making, with a clear >> decrease in cases starting on July 12 in counties requiring masks. He says >> that the 90 counties could see dramatic improvement if they required masks. >> ?The no mask counties are flat,? he said. (MS/McPherson Sentinel) *...Flattening >> the curve isn?t enough anymore; it?s time to sink this.* >> >> *bill w* >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:39:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:39:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think they are just looters - nothing political about them at this. bill w On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:52 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:18 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Is anyone concerned that rubber bullets and tear gas are being used >> against peaceful protesters exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Are the >> police immune to lawsuits claiming denial of constitutional rights? If so, >> that is one of the things we need to change. >> >> ### I would be concerned if it was true. As it is, armed leftist > militants are on a rampage, allied leftist media are blanketing the country > in leftist propaganda, and the police are in retreat, so no, I am not > concerned about rubber bullets. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:51:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:51:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. >> dylan >> > I take this to mean that pattern recognition is an essential part of our cognition, and false correlation is simply when it goes too far - overgeneralizing. bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:54:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:54:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] for Henry In-Reply-To: References: <412FE163-1A20-4F32-8B1A-B09480E4AC0B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: You might want to read my review on amazon. There is a lot of description of what certain personalities will do, and a lot of that is really insightful. But it's hard or impossible to tell if it's their theoretical predictions or is based on actual studies. Also , they get introversion wrong, saying it's shyness. A pretty basic mistake. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:52 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 2:57 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> H is new to me. The Big Five, as they are known, are robust constructs >> that have been researched to death. To add a number six to the Big Five >> would require some replicable demonstration that it is in fact a unique and >> valid personality factor. All new constructs start this way. So it may be >> valid but just new. It will need to prove itself worthy still. >> -Henry > > > ### The Big Five is not a complete description of human personality. It's > just the kind of structure that you can observe in a large body of > statements that people make in response to questions about their behavior. > There are many types of information about personality that is highly > relevant to social functioning but is very difficult to elicit on a > questionnaire. This is why psychologists come up with new specialized > scores, like narcissism scores or the Hexaco dimensions. > > In my mind there is no doubt that there is a lot more to be discovered > about personality. > > I just bought the H Factor book on Kindle. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 12:55:33 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 05:55:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?Bill_Gates_on_Covid=3A_Most_US_Tests_Are_?= =?utf-8?b?4oCYQ29tcGxldGVseSBHYXJiYWdl4oCZ?= In-Reply-To: References: <006201d66f31$f9446ca0$ebcd45e0$@rainier66.com> <012401d66f67$8d02bd90$a70838b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014001d66fde$b37a5510$1a6eff30$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >>?I haven't seen such a test in a drugstore either, at least not in a drugstore in the USA. > I don?t even know where I would get one. > Do you? >?Yes I do. The European Union has approved and has been using three different rapid COVID-19 tests as early as March: >?Why is the US so far behind on rapid testing for Covid-19? Well there ya go: order them from the European Union, problem solved. Have you done it? Neither have I. Do you have a website where they are being sold? I am not much of a believer in testing as a means of controlling covid because it isn?t fast enough even at 15 minutes, because we don?t have any way to compel everyone to take one. We don?t have a good way to deal with false results, we don?t have a good way to enforce quarantine if positives are discovered. We don?t even have a known way to prevent positives from using the virus as a weapon. We are implementing fever-testing devices and masks over at the high school this week, but we might be fooling ourselves on the efficacy of that strategy. Better than nothing I suppose. > I know nothing and care nothing about the political leanings of Bill Gates, >?Bill Gates has always been very diplomatic and apolitical (a bit too much in my humble opinion)? John K Clark There is no too much in being too diplomatic or too apolitical, in my humbler than thou opinion. John you should try it. If you discover talent in those areas, go for the record in that: the grand championship of apolitical and diplomatic. If your results at the regionals look good, we can form a national diplomatic team for the big Apolitical Olympics, go for the gold in diplomacy. We get Anders Sandberg and Eugen Leitl on our international apolitical relays, we would be a monster team. Gates is influential because of his charity work. I deeply admire that, and can relate to it. Testing our way out: I don?t think that will work, because not enough people will use it. We can?t even get everyone to use vaccines that we know are effective and safer than not using it. The fast kits are better than nothing of course, and I will use them once they show up or if I can order them. Is there a site for the European kits? We can recommend the tests, we can even give away the tests if we find enough money from somewhere. But we can?t make the proles use it and we can?t force them into quarantine if they test positive. We can?t even make them turn over their test results. That deafening roar is the sound of thousands of atheists silently praying. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:02:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:02:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe you are making an argument for the opposable thumb. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:21 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:25 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *### I am persuaded that the decisive cognitive innovation that >> triggered the explosion in human intelligence was the evolution of the >> ability to learn from other humans. Subsequent increases in brain size were >> a downstream effect, with some sexual selection accelerating the change. * >> > > I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however > there must be something special about humans because only they have > developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological > civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. It's not > entirely clear what Evolutionary forces caused humans to walk upright, but > whatever it was the paleontological evidence is clear that it happened > before the explosive growth of brain size of our Hominid ancestors. > Intelligence is expensive, about 20% of the bodies energy is use just to > operate the brain and I think there is a limit on how much increased > survival value you get from intelligence if you don't have arms and hands > they can manipulate things, A zebra couldn't make or throw a spear even if > it was as smart as Einstein, but 3 million years ago Lucy could walk > upright almost as well as you were I can, but her brain was no larger than > that of a chimpanzee. And it was at that point evolution went into high > gear and the brain size of her species started to grow very very swiftly. > > John K Clark > > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:01:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:01:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:16 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the police actually > *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is".* > I don't expect cops to work for free, but I do expect them to somehow squeak by without buying more $800,000 18 ton armored assault vehicles, submachine guns, and grenade launchers. If you're talking about national security then that money could be much better spent on radiation detectors for cargo containers and early detection of potentially dangerous viruses in wild animal populations among other things. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:02:41 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:02:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: <1BD3E450-CFD3-402F-AE8B-A5C4C1D8DF76@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, that's what I meant. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:51 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > It may be tough to eliminate false correlation. It's a feature, not a bug. >>> dylan >>> >> > I take this to mean that pattern recognition is an essential part of our > cognition, and false correlation is simply when it goes too far - > overgeneralizing. bill w > >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:05:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:05:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w Message-ID: https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/why-doesnt-lowering-ldl-cholesterol-save-more-lives?utm_source=The+People%27s+Pharmacy+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6bead4bff0-MC_D_2020-08-11%26subscriber%3D1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&goal=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&mc_cid=6bead4bff0&mc_eid=b9c6f5005a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:18:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:18:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun Message-ID: The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the Confederate battle flag is being replaced. A committee has looked at all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars has survived the first cut. Maybe the reference is to the percentage of people on welfare. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:28:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:28:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I've heard various arguments that suggest religion confers some sort of >> evolutionary advantage but I've never found them to be very convincing; >> > > *> ### The ancient Greeks lost faith in their gods, started murdering > their children, especially their daughters. They got conquered by the > ancient Romans, * > Yes but conquered or not Greeks still exist today. Evolution doesn't care about who has conquered who, it just cares about who gets more genes into the next generation, so Evolutionarily speaking a sniveling coward could be much more successful than a great fearless hero. > *The Romans lost faith in their gods, started killing their children and > soon the Vandals had their way with the leftovers, for lack of legions.* > And yet Romans, just like the Greeks, did not go extinct. > *Or take those Iranians - from 6 children per devout Muslima 50 years ago > to 1 point something per faithless modern Iranian girl.* > I don't think that has much to do with religion. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:34:13 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:34:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:04 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: ### "Cultural appropriation" does not refer to an idea whose merits may be > rationally discussed. > Yes "Cultural appropriation" is stupid raise to the power of dumb. I agree with you, and that's not something I say very often. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com Tue Aug 11 12:59:20 2020 From: lostmyelectron+exi at protonmail.com (Gabe Waggoner) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:59:20 +0000 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Good Question. > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack > > Is there anything I'm missing with these? > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but I'm > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > > etc.). > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > > (hopefully!) stack: > > Pulsed rapamycin > > Metformin > > Candesartan > > Low dose tadalafil > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > > Resveratrol > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > > potential side effects. > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone is > > interested. ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) L-Glutathione reduced L-Glutamine Quercetin with bromelain Berberine + vitamin C + Zn Cayenne pepper Marshmallow root N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo Cloves Apple cider vinegar Grapefruit seed extract N-acetyl-D-glucosamine Coenzyme Q10 Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn Oxaloacetate + vitamin C Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase Cinnamon bark Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) Resveratrol PQQ disodium salt Curcumin Niacinamide Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) Vitamin K2 AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + theaflavins) Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are benefiting me the most. I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to go about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. Wishing everyone a great day, Gabe -- Gabe Waggoner www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 13:46:11 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:46:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:15 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Maybe you are making an argument for the opposable thumb. bill w > If a species had an opposable thumb (or something like it) then there would be evolutionary pressure for it to get smarter, but if it was already smart but had no opposable thumb then there would be no evolutionary pressure to evolve one. Therfore the thumb must have evolved for other reasons and the big brain must have come afterwards. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:23:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:23:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Inasmuch as Rafal is a physician and i don't know Gabe, I'd like to know whose list of supplements this is. Just to let you know: I got breathless hanging out the clothes (!), so I decided it was time to do something, so I went to a heart doctor to get approval for an exercise program. Ultrasound and EKG showed a heart attack to the back of the heart sometime in the past, and an enlarged heart which is working at 30% efficiency, or whatever the measurement is. I was put on a beta blocker and a blood pressure medicine (Entresto, which my pharmacist says is a great drug). If the pills work I will regain some functioning. If anyone has any suggestions based on my diagnosis, please let me know. The stats look like I might have 5 to 10 years left, which would put me at 88 - plenty of life left, and 88 isn't bad for someone with my problems (two cancers to boot). Thanks! bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > Good Question. > > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at > > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: > > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack > > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack > > > > Is there anything I'm missing with these? > > > > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, but > I'm > > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or > > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, > > > etc.). > > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life extension > > > (hopefully!) stack: > > > Pulsed rapamycin > > > Metformin > > > Candesartan > > > Low dose tadalafil > > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene > > > Resveratrol > > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to some > > > potential side effects. > > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and > > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. > > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other > > > enhancers people are experimenting with. > > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if anyone > is > > > interested. > > ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was > glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a > lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm > happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't > italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) > > Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) > L-Glutathione reduced > L-Glutamine > Quercetin with bromelain > Berberine + vitamin C + Zn > Cayenne pepper > Marshmallow root > N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo > Cloves > Apple cider vinegar > Grapefruit seed extract > N-acetyl-D-glucosamine > Coenzyme Q10 > Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn > Oxaloacetate + vitamin C > Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase > Cinnamon bark > Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A > Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) > Resveratrol > PQQ disodium salt > Curcumin > Niacinamide > Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) > Vitamin K2 > AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) > Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + > theaflavins) > > > Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon > Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my > serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale > redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my > doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I > have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, > my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump > [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are > benefiting me the most. > > I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to go > about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it > purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. > > Wishing everyone a great day, > Gabe > > -- > Gabe Waggoner > www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:40:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:40:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gabe, thanks for sharing your list. I'm going to look at it in detail when I have a chance. Bill- I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes sense for a few reasons. Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: Abstract Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. However, little is known about the role of rapamycin in cardiac hypertrophy and the signaling pathways involved. Here, the effect of rapamycin was examined using phenylephrine (PE) induced cardiomyocyte hypertrophy in vitro and in a rat model of aortic banding (AB) - induced hypertrophy in vivo. Inhibition of MEK/ERK signaling reversed the effect of rapamycin on the up-regulation of LC3-II, Beclin-1 and Noxa, and the down-regulation of Mcl-1 and p62. Silencing of Noxa or Beclin-1 suppressed rapamycin-induced autophagy, and co-immunoprecipitation experiments showed that Noxa abolishes the inhibitory effect of Mcl-1 on Beclin-1, promoting autophagy. In vivo experiments showed that rapamycin decreased AB-induced cardiac hypertrophy in a MEK/ERK dependent manner. Taken together, our results indicate that rapamycin attenuates cardiac hypertrophy by promoting autophagy through a mechanism involving the modulation of Noxa and Beclin-1 expression by the MEK/ERK signaling pathway. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4796007/ Article on a different study: Elderly mice suffering from age-related heart disease saw a significant improvement in cardiac function after being treated with the FDA-approved drug rapamycin for just three months. The research, led by a team of scientists at the Buck Institute for Research on Aging, shows how rapamycin impacts mammalian tissues, providing functional insights and possible benefits for a drug that has been shown to extend the lifespan of mice as much as 14 percent. There are implications for human health in the research appearing online in Aging Cell: heart disease is the leading cause of death in the U.S., claiming nearly 600,000 lives per year. Researchers at the Mayo Clinic are currently recruiting seniors with cardiac artery disease for a clinical trial involving low dose treatment with rapamycin. Rapamycin is an immunosuppressant drug which can be used to help prevent organ rejection after transplantation. It is also included in treatment regimens for some cancers. In this study, rapamycin was added to the diets of mice that were 24 months old -- the human equivalent of 70 to 75 years of age. Similar to humans, the aged mice exhibited enlarged hearts, a general thickening of the heart wall and a reduced efficiency in the hearts ability to pump blood. The mice were examined with ultrasound echocardiography before and after the three-month treatment period -- using metrics closely paralleling those used in humans. Buck Institute faculty Simon Melov, PhD, the senior author of the study, said age-related cardiac dysfunction was either slowed or reversed in the treated mice. "When we measured the efficiency of how the heart pumps blood, the treated mice showed a remarkable improvement from where they started. In contrast, the untreated mice saw a general decline in pumping efficiency at the end of the same three month period," he said. "This study provides the first evidence that age-related heart dysfunction can be improved even in late life via appropriate drug treatment," added Melov, who said the treated mice saw a reduction in heart size, reduced stress signaling in heart tissues and a reduction in inflammation. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130610132843.htm On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Inasmuch as Rafal is a physician and i don't know Gabe, I'd like to know > whose list of supplements this is. > > Just to let you know: I got breathless hanging out the clothes (!), so I > decided it was time to do something, so I went to a heart doctor to get > approval for an exercise program. Ultrasound and EKG showed a heart attack > to the back of the heart sometime in the past, and an enlarged heart which > is working at 30% efficiency, or whatever the measurement is. I was put on > a beta blocker and a blood pressure medicine (Entresto, which my pharmacist > says is a great drug). If the pills work I will regain some functioning. > If anyone has any suggestions based on my diagnosis, please let me know. > The stats look like I might have 5 to 10 years left, which would put me at > 88 - plenty of life left, and 88 isn't bad for someone with my problems > (two cancers to boot). Thanks! bill w > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Gabe Waggoner via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> ??????? Original Message ??????? >> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 9:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > Good Question. >> > I'm in no way an expert at any of this, so I just trust the experts at >> > Thrivous, and take both of these stacks: >> > https://thrivous.com/products/nootropic-stack >> > https://thrivous.com/products/geroprotector-stack >> > >> > Is there anything I'm missing with these? >> > >> > On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:19 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> > >> > > Hopefully this topic is not verboten on a list about extropianism, >> but I'm >> > > curious if anyone is experimenting with different pharmaceuticals or >> > > supplements for either life extension or enhancement (i.e. nootropics, >> > > etc.). >> > > Just to start the conversation, I will share my personal life >> extension >> > > (hopefully!) stack: >> > > Pulsed rapamycin >> > > Metformin >> > > Candesartan >> > > Low dose tadalafil >> > > nicotinamide riboside / pterostilbene >> > > Resveratrol >> > > I've also considered adding a statin although I am hesitant due to >> some >> > > potential side effects. >> > > I am also planning on a quarterly senolytic regime of dasatinib and >> > > quercetin, and have the drug but have not started yet. >> > > I'm personally interested in hearing about any nootropics or other >> > > enhancers people are experimenting with. >> > > I can provide more detail on why I am taking the above combo if >> anyone is >> > > interested. >> >> ### For years I've been interested in the supplements people take and was >> glad to see this topic (I've had a backlog of digests to review). I edit a >> lot of research into vitamin D3, for instance. Here's my regimen, and I'm >> happy to discuss further on- or offlist. (It kills me that I can't >> italicize or use small caps or subscripts in this plain-text message.) >> >> Multivitamin (Dr. Tobias Adult) >> L-Glutathione reduced >> L-Glutamine >> Quercetin with bromelain >> Berberine + vitamin C + Zn >> Cayenne pepper >> Marshmallow root >> N-Acetyl cysteine + Se + Mo >> Cloves >> Apple cider vinegar >> Grapefruit seed extract >> N-acetyl-D-glucosamine >> Coenzyme Q10 >> Calcium citrate + vitamin D2 + Mg + Cu + Mn >> Oxaloacetate + vitamin C >> Glucoraphanin (from broccoli seed extract) + myrosinase >> Cinnamon bark >> Gamma-linolenic acid + ginsenoside + withaferin A >> Omega-3 fish oil (pretty much the only animal product I ingest) >> Resveratrol >> PQQ disodium salt >> Curcumin >> Niacinamide >> Vitamin D3 (10,400 IU/day) >> Vitamin K2 >> AMPK (CaCO3 + hesperidia + gynostemma extract) >> Senolytic activator (weekly; quercetin + phosphatidylcholine complex + >> theaflavins) >> >> >> Suggestions always welcome. For some of those, I can accept that Sheldon >> Cooper may be right and that I'm just getting very expensive urine. But my >> serum level of vitamin D has been stellar for over a decade. As a pale >> redhead, I don't get much sun exposure to synthesize my own. I keep my >> doctor informed of all supplements I take. But with so many variables, I >> have no way to gauge how effective the regimen is, if at all. Most likely, >> my exercise (lots of Les Mills RPM [basically spin class] and BodyPump >> [weight training], plus running/hiking with the dog) and my nutrition are >> benefiting me the most. >> >> I'd like to see about taking metformin, but I'm not sure exactly how to >> go about getting it as a nondiabetic. I doubt my doctor would prescribe it >> purely to satisfy my curiosity about it. >> >> Wishing everyone a great day, >> Gabe >> >> -- >> Gabe Waggoner >> www.nasw.org/users/rgwaggoner/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 14:56:39 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:56:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 15:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > > I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes sense for a few reasons. > > Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: > > Abstract > Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. "Immunosuppressant" ?? Is it safe to weaken the immune system when surrounded by Covid-19? Especially for an older person? BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 15:08:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:08:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] a little fun The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the Confederate battle flag is being replaced? bill w BillW, here?s another one I have been suspicious about for a long time. I know they claim it has nothing to do with the confederacy and all, but still it kinda looks a little like Mississippi?s flag which looks a little like the confederate flag: In keeping with the spirit of our times, we should be pressuring Boris or the queen to change that, become awakened and such. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:12:29 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:12:29 -0400 Subject: [ExI] What are everyone's life extension strategies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The CV-19 is an additional wrench in the works, but when rapamycin is pulsed at low doses, the immunosuppressive effects are negated (there's actually some evidence it may even boost immunity). At daily, high doses, it's used as part of an immunosuppressive regime for organ transplants, but at once weekly, low doses, the bulk of these effects appear to be mitigated. There are two complexes related to rapaymycin's method of action mTORC1 and mTORC2 (mTOR actually stands for Target of Rapamycin). mTORC1 is related to nutrient sensing and is the one life extension enthusiasts are interested in. mTORC2 is related to growth factor signalling. The theory here is that mTORC2 activation is responsible for the nasty side effects of rapamycin at daily, high doses, and that it is possible to activate mTORC1 with weekly low doses, and minimize mTORC2 activation. This is a bit on the both of them, but if you want to read up on this stuff in general, mTOR is the pathway you want to look at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31010692/#:~:text=mTOR%20forms%20two%20multiprotein%20complexes,PI3K%20and%20growth%20factor%20signaling. I've been taking it for over a year, and all of my high level blood work still looks normal. There are always potential risks with any pharmaceutical intervention, and I would recommend you do your own research and speak to a doctor. You may have difficulty getting most doctors to prescribe it. I went to someone who retired years ago from his regular practice but is such a big believer in it based on the research and his personal results that he has built a new practice around it in his 70s. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:58 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 15:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > > > I am NOT a doctor, so you do need to do your own due diligence, but as > I've mentioned on list before, one of the pharmaceutical interventions I > take for potential anti-aging benefits is pulsed rapamycin (meaning I take > it once a week in an attempt to avoid undesirable side effects). It has a > fairly long half life, so the argument can be made that pulsing it makes > sense for a few reasons. > > > > Anyways, I'm bringing it up again because there is enough animal > evidence that it reverses an enlarged heart (hypertrophy) for it to be > worth considering for you in addition to the other potential benefits. In > fact, the doctor who prescribed it for me is an elderly gentleman who > decided to take it for an enlarged heart after he noticed trouble walking > up a hill he had not had problems with in the past. Anecdotally, he has > had very good success with it. Here are a few animal studies on it: > > > > Abstract > > Rapamycin, also known as sirolimus, is an antifungal agent and > immunosuppressant drug used to prevent organ rejection in transplantation. > > > > "Immunosuppressant" ?? Is it safe to weaken the immune system when > surrounded by Covid-19? Especially for an older person? > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:22:48 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:22:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> On 2020-8-11 06:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > Confederate battle flag[,] is being replaced.? A committee?has looked at > all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with > Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. > > But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars > has survived the first cut. Compared to that, why not crawfish? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 15:31:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:31:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar Message-ID: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-support ing-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/ BLM organizer Ariel Atkins' comment is the takeaway: "That is reparations. Anything they wanted to take, they can take it because these businesses have insurance." This tells me that the BLM organizer wants to treat insurance companies as a bottomless pit of money. OK, so they pay these business owners for their losses to some extent. Then what? Do you suppose those insurers are going to bet this will not happen again? I wouldn't make that bet. Insurer to former customer: Can't cover that anymore, too risky, here's your check, adios amigo. Then. these high end retail bricks and mortar outfits are never rebuilt. OK, well I suppose we don't really need them anymore. I see where they served their purpose at one time, but I don't see that there is any practical means of protecting them or insuring them, since it has been demonstrated that a flash-mob of looters cannot be stopped. Result: no more high-end retail in the population centers. What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? When that is gone, then what? The ability to organize looting flash mobs on the internet is accelerating the end of bricks and mortar retailing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:31:20 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:31:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cultural appropriation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 00:29, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > I sent a picture that was too big for the list's settings, > but here it is online: > > https://giulioprisco.com/cultural-appropriation-8ab5025369fb You couldn't have put that in plain text? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:42:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:42:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This one is too important for that attitude as you've alluded to. The Goths are at the gates. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >> vote does not count much? >> >>> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you > can't blame me. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:51:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> References: <93cd79c1-efe6-7bbf-d78b-20347ca0d25a@pobox.com> Message-ID: Crawfish would be great, then so would catfish - we raise a lot of them. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:26 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-11 06:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > > Confederate battle flag[,] is being replaced. A committee has looked at > > all the submissions and made the first cut, eliminating those with > > Kermit the Frog, Elvis, beer cans, crawfish, and so on. > > > > But a proposal that had a giant mosquito surrounded by a circle of stars > > has survived the first cut. > > Compared to that, why not crawfish? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 15:53:43 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 08:53:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> On 2020-8-10 19:25, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected > space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. Has anyone seen lava tubes on the Moon? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:53:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:53:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> References: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This actually happened the other day. People were complaining that the flag of Denmark looked like the MS battle flag - they need to see an optometrist - The Danes removed the flag from the website, bitterly complaining that it looked nothing like it at all. bill w https://www.google.com/search?q=image+flag+of+denmark&rlz=1CAMWDF_enUS731US731&sxsrf=ALeKk02v981BnmNKkHm6YqOfYCmMVDp--A:1597160988972&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM%252Clmi3sbAjCbeZTM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ7HJTEvJAn1lYdGh_7e97_4yYwuQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8ZWrwJPrAhVRU98KHQfaBWYQ9QEwCnoECAkQJA&biw=1247&bih=608&dpr=1.54#imgrc=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] a little fun > > > > The now-disgraced Mississippi state flag, with its inclusion of the > Confederate battle flag is being replaced? > > bill w > > > > > > BillW, here?s another one I have been suspicious about for a long time. I > know they claim it has nothing to do with the confederacy and all, but > still it kinda looks a little like Mississippi?s flag which looks a little > like the confederate flag: > > > > > > In keeping with the spirit of our times, we should be pressuring Boris or > the queen to change that, become awakened and such. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9166 bytes Desc: not available URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 15:55:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:55:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? When that is gone, then what? soike Oh for sure, as soon as they get organized, they will attack Amazon storage sites. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:33 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/black-lives-matter-holds-rally-supporting-individuals-arrested-in-chicago-looting-monday/2320365/ > > > > BLM organizer Ariel Atkins? comment is the takeaway: > > > > ?That is reparations. Anything they wanted to take, they can take it > because these businesses have insurance.? > > > > This tells me that the BLM organizer wants to treat insurance companies as > a bottomless pit of money. OK, so they pay these business owners for their > losses to some extent. Then what? Do you suppose those insurers are going > to bet this will not happen again? I wouldn?t make that bet. Insurer to > former customer: Can?t cover that anymore, too risky, here?s your check, > adios amigo. > > > > Then? these high end retail bricks and mortar outfits are never rebuilt. > > > > OK, well I suppose we don?t really need them anymore. I see where they > served their purpose at one time, but I don?t see that there is any > practical means of protecting them or insuring them, since it has been > demonstrated that a flash-mob of looters cannot be stopped. > > > > Result: no more high-end retail in the population centers. > > > > What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? > When that is gone, then what? > > > > The ability to organize looting flash mobs on the internet is accelerating > the end of bricks and mortar retailing. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 16:56:18 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 09:56:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> References: <986c25e1-ba5c-1f2c-b463-99f80ea6e31a@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:58 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-10 19:25, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected > > space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. > > Has anyone seen lava tubes on the Moon? > Yes. I haven't been there myself to verify this yet, but there are many reports of lava tubes on the Moon. See for instance https://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Rima_Ariadaeus-1-e1427740341834.jpg . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:24:17 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:24:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Net Return On Philosophy Major Is Comparable To That Of Engineering Major Message-ID: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> http://dailynous.com/2017/01/23/net-return-philosophy-major-comparable-engineering/ The market has spoken? Well, that?s from a few years ago. See also: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/08/06/want-good-job-major-philosophy Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:24:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:24:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:11 AM John Clark wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news >>>> and is basically a good idea, >>>> >>> >>> > ### *"Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great >>> again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid.* >>> >> >> Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I >> specifically said "*Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing >> the police*". >> >> > ### Well, dunno. Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the > police actually *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is". > John means a not-full defunding. Take away certain expensive toys that invite misuse by their mere presence in police departments, reassign certain duties away from police so they don't need as many police and can focus training of the rest on their remaining duties, and so on. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 17:35:35 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:35:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most URLs like this can be cut at the ?. That is, remove the ? (there should usually only be one; if there are multiple, then cut at the first one) and everything after it, then load just that URL. If you get the same article, use that shortened URL. There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, but these are rare. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:32 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/articles/why-doesnt-lowering-ldl-cholesterol-save-more-lives?utm_source=The+People%27s+Pharmacy+Newsletter&utm_campaign=6bead4bff0-MC_D_2020-08-11%26subscriber%3D1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&goal=0_7300006d3c-6bead4bff0-214968749&mc_cid=6bead4bff0&mc_eid=b9c6f5005a > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 17:39:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:39:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun In-Reply-To: References: <01fb01d66ff1$552ea4d0$ff8bee70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006c01d67006$5660fdc0$0322f940$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] a little fun This actually happened the other day. People were complaining that the flag of Denmark looked like the MS battle flag - they need to see an optometrist - The Danes removed the flag from the website, bitterly complaining that it looked nothing like it at all. bill w https://www.google.com/search?q=image+flag+of+denmark &rlz=1CAMWDF_enUS731US731&sxsrf=ALeKk02v981BnmNKkHm6YqOfYCmMVDp--A:1597160988972&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM%252Clmi3sbAjCbeZTM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQ7HJTEvJAn1lYdGh_7e97_4yYwuQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8ZWrwJPrAhVRU98KHQfaBWYQ9QEwCnoECAkQJA&biw=1247&bih=608&dpr=1.54#imgrc=JnlJLlAx7-3RiM OK so. They both took the confederate flag, the Brits added the X/Y axes and dropped the stars. The Danes ran with the ball, kept the British X/Y axes but dropped the confederate |Y| = 0.5|X| notion and the stars, both of them sneaking in a bit of southern hospitality. But they don?t fool me for a minute! We need to have a little chat with Elizabeth II and Margrethe II, see what they really had in mind with these stealth-confederate images. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 17:47:45 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 10:47:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, > but these are rare. Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 18:04:49 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:04:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, > > but these are rare. > > Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. > Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to shorten before. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 18:21:54 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 11:21:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> On 2020-8-07 03:11, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots According to some of them, stripping the police of some of their legal immunity to torts would be tantamount to abolition. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:13:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:13:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 9:53 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> As it is, armed leftist militants are on a rampage,* One of the main reasons to justify sending federal thugs into the heart of Portland Oregon against the wishes of local authorities, both the mayor and the governor, was that the leftists were on a rampage of...... graffiti. And I didn't see a single gun, except those used by the thugs. But I sure saw one hell of a lot of guns when right wing nuts invaded the Michigan state house in full body armor wielding semi automatic assault rifles because they didn't want their God given constitutional right to spread COVID-19 to other people violated by being made to wear a facemask. The president of the United States even tweeted his approval of such stormtrooper tactics. Armed Protesters Storm Michigan State House Over COVID-19 Lockdown *> I am not concerned about rubber bullets.* Not even when rubber bullets are used to stop a protest, in which there is plenty of video evidence showing it was peaceful, so that Trump could have a photo op and hold a Bible upside down in front of a church? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:16:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:16:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> Message-ID: Just what we need: borderline psychopaths with full armor and buoyed by a lack of ability to be sued, give them lethal weapons and turn them loose on lawbreakers. I support the police just as much as any conservative rightwinger does (I was even polite to the ones who gave me speeding tickets.), but many of their practices have gone beyond reason. I posted the other day about education in the US getting our teachers from the bottom third of the group, which Singapore used the top third. Why can't we do that with the police? We hire from the bottom, men and women who probably dropped out school before or during college. We do not screen them adequately, train them for a few weeks, and turn them loose. Oh, and pay them poorly, so much so that they need second jobs to support a family, just like teachers. Bottom line: we are not paying people according to their importance The large majority of them will be OK, I think, though befuddled by complex situations. But a few will be killers with the mentality of the worst criminals, just looking for a fight. Any adequate screening would have caught them before they entered the police academy. But I have never heard of adequate screening. Have you? Wars starting with Vietnam gave us data about men with weapons who did not fire them in combat. Has the Army studied those people, or just kicked them out? You know my guess. Or how about those who just fired at anyone in sight and mowed down entire Vietnam villages? We need personality profiles of both types - and more. Yeah, I am for hiring tons of psychologists and finding out who turns out to be good cops and who bad cops, not that there's a neat dividing line - never is. I think proper screening would solve more problems than anything else we can do. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-07 03:11, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots > > According to some of them, stripping the police of some of their legal > immunity to torts would be tantamount to abolition. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:20:37 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:20:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] rubber bullets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 10:33 PM Michael LaTorra via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Rafal Smigrodzki - Exactly right. Videos show a lot of violence coming > from those supposedly * > *"peaceful" protesters.* > Somehow I missed that. A month or two ago I saw video of windows being broken and three or four shops being looted, but after that the only violence I saw came from cops and federal stormtroopers in unmarked vans. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:37:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 14:37:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > >> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >> > but these are rare. >> >> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >> > > Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was > talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to > shorten before. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:43:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:43:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill- Not sure if you're asking why they're there or why you're asked to shorten them. If it's the former, they're typically add ons for tracking things like how someone got to the site (from a newsletter for example), or other tracking attributes. If it's the latter, some people just don't like dealing with longer urls for copy/paste, etc. It's a personal preference. If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: >> >>> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >>> > but these are rare. >>> >>> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >>> >> >> Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was >> talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to >> shorten before. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 19:45:52 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:45:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> <0eeaf69b-08db-26ba-31bf-ba43b4480892@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 12:16, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Wars starting with Vietnam gave us data about men with weapons who did > not fire them in combat.? Has the Army studied those people, or just > kicked them out?? You know my guess. I have heard somewhere or other (my number one source for hard data!) that the proportion of soldiers willing to shoot to kill has risen from about one in four in WWI to a majority in more recent wars. Training, or the end of conscription (now selecting for the violent), who knows? Likely some of each. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:46:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:46:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, > you can't blame me.* > I think Paul von Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but if I was a German in 1932 I would've voted for him, and if I survived the upcoming war in 1952 I would have look back at that vote with pride. If I had voted for his opponent or just not voted at all I would be filled with shame, because there is no bottom to bad. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 19:51:40 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:51:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Net Return On Philosophy Major Is Comparable To That Of Engineering Major In-Reply-To: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> References: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e3b97f4-f95c-2076-ba54-d87871f5d074@pobox.com> On 2020-8-11 10:24, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > The market has spoken? Well, that?s from a few years ago. That darn market never shuts up. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:54:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:54:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou > wrote: > >> >> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >> vote does not count much? >> >>> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you > can't blame me. > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the country). Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 19:56:06 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 12:56:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58FE78B6-1E93-4CBC-B036-77DB106A7BAD@gmail.com> On Aug 6, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is basically a good idea, > > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. Then I guess whatever happened in Camden, NJ ? where they defunded the police back in 2012 ? must be fake news. See: https://www.businessinsider.com/camden-new-jersey-police-disbanded-how-it-works-impacts-residents-2020-6 Also, Cory?s piece was on abolition ? not defunding. Have you actually read it? (I know the answer is No.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:02:11 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:02:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38B4E154-A121-496A-8833-4B9857FFE964@gmail.com> On Aug 7, 2020, at 3:13 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 1:07 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is basically a good idea, >> >> > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. > > Abolishing the police is stupid and advocated only by crackpots, but I specifically said "Defunding the police is not the same as abolishing the police". And you still haven?t responded to why you thought Cory Massimino confused abolition with defunding. I?m guessing you haven?t and won?t ever read his piece. Your empirical stance stops at actually reading what he actually wrote, no? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:17:42 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:17:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >> wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>> vote does not count much? >>> >>>> >>> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you >> can't blame me. >> > > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't > matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the > United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is > possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually > requires leaving the country). > > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:18:43 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:18:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My comment on Rice is immediately dated. He just picked Harris. On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:17 PM Dylan Distasio wrote: > Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden > if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty > obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up > with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless > you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't > say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:12 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>>> vote does not count much? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, >>> you can't blame me. >>> >> >> We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It >> doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of >> the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it >> is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which >> usually requires leaving the country). >> >> Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:37:25 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:37:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C225C46-A73A-4D5A-9A2C-99043E9FCD8A@gmail.com> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:? > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single vote does not count much? >>> >> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. > > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the country). Where is this requirement for US citizenship? Oh, you just made that up. > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. Well, if no one voted in 2016, where would he be now? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:37:21 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:37:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ### Spacex promises to reduce launch costs to LEO to $100/kg in the not too distant future. There is continued progress in robotics and additive manufacturing. The weight of a 90% self-sustaining technological ecosystem is dropping. At some point in the not too distant future it will be possible to establish a self-enlarging but not self-sufficient technological presence on the Moon at a cost accessible to affluent Americans. Giant lunar lava tubes might offer hundreds of square miles of protected space to build cities supported by high-efficiency farming. I have been deeply involved in space habitation for 45 years. Don't want to argue from authority, but there are a *lot" of problems, some of which don't have recognized solutions. Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How is that done? Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. But if you have suggestions for how to do this on the moon, i would be most interested to see your analysis. Keith From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:38:29 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:38:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3817FF47-4B41-4153-8784-A3ED3844983C@gmail.com> On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:36 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:? > > Just hazarding a guess, but I don't think Rafal will be voting for Biden if he deigns to vote. The Marxist playbook of Biden's handlers is pretty obvious. If he goes with the establishment pick of Rice, you'll end up with a voracious hawk instead. Neither scenario has much appeal unless you're in favor of redistribution/cultural annihilation or war. I won't say more as to avoid starting a political thread which is verboten. He picked Harris. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 20:44:16 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 13:44:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 11, 2020, at 1:00 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote:? >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:54 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. > > I think Paul von Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but if I was a German in 1932 I would've voted for him, and if I survived the upcoming war in 1952 I would have look back at that vote with pride. If I had voted for his opponent or just not voted at all I would be filled with shame, because there is no bottom to bad. Recall who Hindenburg helped a certain other person to seize control about a year later. I?d say he was one of history?s great enablers. And let?s not forget his role in popularizing the stab in the back myth. See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_myth The best thing about Hindenburg in 1932 was that he wasn?t going to live that long. But that didn?t help matters much, did it? Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 21:17:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:17:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dylan - that's very helpful - thanks. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 2:46 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Bill- > > Not sure if you're asking why they're there or why you're asked to shorten > them. If it's the former, they're typically add ons for tracking things > like how someone got to the site (from a newsletter for example), or > other tracking attributes. If it's the latter, some people just don't > like dealing with longer urls for copy/paste, etc. It's a personal > preference. > > If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use > a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it > will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:38 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Hey, I'll cut them off, but what is the point? bill w >> >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:06 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:47 AM Anton Sherwood >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2020-8-11 10:35, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> > There are a few cases where the things after the ? matter, >>>> > but these are rare. >>>> >>>> Mm, I'd say that's overstating it. Consider youtube for example. >>>> >>> >>> Even some YT URLs embed all the relevant stuff before the ?. But I was >>> talking about article URLs, like he was sharing and had been requested to >>> shorten before. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 22:00:14 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 17:00:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Hand in hand implies they work together. They do not. Antifa exists to move the Overton Window to exclude fascists. Nothing more or less. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2020, at 5:25 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 6:30 AM John Clark wrote: >>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:08 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > Antifa are just leftist militants, the armed wing of the Democratic >> >> Antifa is just a very small group of left wing nuts and on a list of the country's problems ranked from worst to least I would put Antifa at about #987. > > ### They move the Overton window to the left. That's why they exist - working hand in hand with Democratic establishment, and at the same time fundamentally transforming it. > > The Bolsheviks were not numerous but they were bolder than others. The vanguard of the proletariat. > > History repeats itself. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:19:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:19:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 08:42, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > This one is too important for that attitude as you've alluded to. > The Goths are at the gates. Every single cycle I hear - often from two sides - that THIS TIME it's vital to go all-out for the second-worst of the Biparty's nominees. I see that Biden has chosen Harris; I guess he's courting the prison unions. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:28:50 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:28:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-11 12:54, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. > It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an > adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are > to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or > to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the > country). One's only *duty* to others is the Golden Rule. I *choose* to promote freedom in my modest way, which includes such revolutionary acts as not voting for Kamala gorram Harris. > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. Certain other people doing their "civic duty" was the other part. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:29:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:29:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <236AD0D9-3807-4E8C-979C-750D2ACA32A3@gmail.com> <3593DBD3-1FAA-45A0-A3E4-D7CCC423F420@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ac6bc0b-5ec7-ee9f-c12b-9045e8dc5fe9@pobox.com> On 2020-8-01 13:34, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology > does, and it truly is a dismal "science." Fun fact: Carlyle called economics a "dismal science" because, in its obsession with tangible utility, it ignores the spiritual benefits of such humane institutions as slavery. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 11 22:31:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:31:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:57 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes > around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where > does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How > is that done? > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > > But if you have suggestions for how to do this on the moon, i would be > most interested to see your analysis. > To me, this is a secondary reason to plant a colony near the north or south pole, after the availability of water ice surviving in permanently shadowed craters: you can build a ring of solar panels, such that some of them will always be in sunlight. As to getting rid of heat, could you dig heat sinks into the Moon and radiate heat into the rock? Not as efficiently as into open air on Earth, but could it work? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 22:34:40 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:34:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-06 21:00, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > [...] In fact, in Leftistan, words have a queer way of taking on > the opposite meaning: the newspaper named "Pravda" is in charge of > printing lies, the Secret State Security Police (AKA Gestapo) is > in charge of very obviously making people feel insecure, [...] Be fair, its name does not mention the people. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 22:52:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 15:52:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:57 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How is that done? ? >?To me, this is a secondary reason to plant a colony near the north or south pole, after the availability of water ice surviving in permanently shadowed craters: you can build a ring of solar panels, such that some of them will always be in sunlight. >?As to getting rid of heat, could you dig heat sinks into the Moon and radiate heat into the rock? Not as efficiently as into open air on Earth, but could it work? Not so much radiate heat into rock, but conduct it. My intuition is to be skeptical of the idea because it is such a very limited resource: the regolith starts to warm up the minute you start dumping heat into it, and it is all downhill from there. The rock starts out hot with the drilling process. Radiating into cold space feels more like the right answer on the moon. We would need to shadow the radiator with something, but it gets really really cold in the shadows there, and all that unobstructed view of cold space everywhere, that seems like the right answer for waste heat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 11 23:29:07 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:29:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> References: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <63942fd6-b84a-a746-1c9e-19206b3dd309@pobox.com> On 2020-8-11 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Radiating into cold space feels more like the right answer on the moon. > We would need to shadow the radiator with something, [....] I hope you mean put it on the shady side of a mountain. If you mean by putting up an awning, that would heat up and reradiate, heating up the radiator some ... I don't know how to do the math. I suspect the best thing is to make the radiator swivel to present its edge to the sun (as some animals do, or so I gather). -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 11 23:37:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 16:37:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <63942fd6-b84a-a746-1c9e-19206b3dd309@pobox.com> References: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> <63942fd6-b84a-a746-1c9e-19206b3dd309@pobox.com> Message-ID: <013801d67038$6ab53bb0$401fb310$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace On 2020-8-11 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Radiating into cold space feels more like the right answer on the moon. > We would need to shadow the radiator with something, [....] >...I hope you mean put it on the shady side of a mountain. If you mean by putting up an awning, that would heat up and reradiate, heating up the radiator some ... I don't know how to do the math. I suspect the best thing is to make the radiator swivel to present its edge to the sun (as some animals do, or so I gather). A double swivel to go edge-on with the sun would work probably, but better would be a natural shield of stone, such as at the mouth of a lava tube, with a parabolic reflector pointing toward cold space. The shady side of a mountain would only be shady part time. Inside a crater would be shady always if you happened to set up at one of the poles. Either way, you need a completely unobstructed view of cold space. Then you can get a first order estimate of the heat-rejection capacity by estimating the temperature of your radiator and using Stafn-Boltzmann's law. That would be the ideal case but I don't think you would miss by that much by treating cold space as 3 Kelvin spike -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 00:13:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:13:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer Message-ID: Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an atheist was condescending and patronizing. What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as feeling sorry? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 00:32:35 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 19:32:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> I think it depends on what you?re praying about. Some people are offended by the idea always, but others find it a sweet thought in the right circumstance. My thought is, why are you telling me you?re praying for me? SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2020, at 7:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an atheist was condescending and patronizing. > > What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as feeling sorry? > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 01:52:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 20:52:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> References: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am a naturalist (atheist) and have not prayed for about 55 years. I do wish you well but don't think a god will intercede for you. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think it depends on what you?re praying about. > > Some people are offended by the idea always, but others find it a sweet > thought in the right circumstance. > > My thought is, why are you telling me you?re praying for me? > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 11, 2020, at 7:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an > atheist was condescending and patronizing. > > What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as > feeling sorry? > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 02:14:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 21:14:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Impersonal you. SR Ballard > On Aug 11, 2020, at 8:52 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am a naturalist (atheist) and have not prayed for about 55 years. I do wish you well but don't think a god will intercede for you. bill w > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I think it depends on what you?re praying about. >> >> Some people are offended by the idea always, but others find it a sweet thought in the right circumstance. >> >> My thought is, why are you telling me you?re praying for me? >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 7:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an atheist was condescending and patronizing. >>> >>> What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as feeling sorry? >>> >>> bill w >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 03:25:57 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 23:25:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:43 AM Dylan Distasio wrote: > This one is too important for that attitude as you've alluded to. The > Goths are at the gates. > ### Well, yes, I am seriously considering voting this time. Rafal > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >> wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>> vote does not count much? >>> >>>> >>> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you >> can't blame me. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 03:31:10 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 23:31:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:54 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >> wrote: >> >>> >>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>> vote does not count much? >>> >>>> >>> >> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you >> can't blame me. >> > > We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't > matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the > United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is > possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually > requires leaving the country). > ### No, we are Americans, we are a free people, at least for now, we don't have a duty to brown-nose the Leviathan by casting usually meaningless votes. It's only in the Communist Poland that I was forced to vote in municipal elections, on pain of being investigated by the police for being an enemy of the state if I didn't show up. > > Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. > ### If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I would. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 03:44:15 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 23:44:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:28 AM John Clark wrote: > > And yet Romans, just like the Greeks, did not go extinct. > ### To the contrary, the specific Greeks and Romans who lost their faith and stopped procreating did actually go extinct. The others, who started following the god of the Jews, are still around (but not much longer, Italian birth rate is 1.34) > > > *Or take those Iranians - from 6 children per devout Muslima 50 years >> ago to 1 point something per faithless modern Iranian girl.* >> > > I don't think that has much to do with religion. > > ### Losing religion, not having it. Just to be clear - I am a good atheist, won't pull a John C. Wright and convert but neither do I deny that devout followers of some religions are better at procreation than atheists. It's a simple statistical fact. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 03:54:35 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 23:54:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:19 AM John Clark wrote: > > I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however > there must be something special about humans because only they have > developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological > civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. > ### Bipedal apes have been walking around for 3.9 million years and getting nowhere fast. Then suddenly culture exploded in the past 200 kyr. It wasn't from improved legs. Read "The secret of our success", it's very persuasive. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 03:59:06 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 23:59:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 12:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? > When that is gone, then what? > > soike > > > Oh for sure, as soon as they get organized, they will attack Amazon > storage sites. bill w > ### No windows to smash, solid steel gates, sprinkler systems, private security. Amazon can defend itself. No, they will come to your house. What is your favorite caliber? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 04:06:02 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 00:06:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Net Return On Philosophy Major Is Comparable To That Of Engineering Major In-Reply-To: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> References: <0CD84344-FBC3-4784-92CC-340E432D524F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 1:26 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > http://dailynous.com/2017/01/23/net-return-philosophy-major-comparable-engineering/ > > The market has spoken? Well, that?s from a few years ago. > > ### Did they mention philosophy majors have on average higher IQs than engineering majors? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 05:00:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:00:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: <58FE78B6-1E93-4CBC-B036-77DB106A7BAD@gmail.com> References: <58FE78B6-1E93-4CBC-B036-77DB106A7BAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:24 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Aug 6, 2020, at 10:06 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:28 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Because the phrase "defund the police" is suddenly all in the news and is >> basically a good idea, >> > > ### "Privatize the police", "Reform the police", "Make police great again" > might be good ideas but "Defund the police" is just stupid. > > > Then I guess whatever happened in Camden, NJ ? where they defunded the > police back in 2012 ? must be fake news. > ### Obviously. Camden didn't defund the police, they just hired new one. In a reasonable person's speech it's called "reform", not "defunding". See: > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/camden-new-jersey-police-disbanded-how-it-works-impacts-residents-2020-6 > > Also, Cory?s piece was on abolition ? not defunding. Have you actually > read it? (I know the answer is No.) > ### I am not interested in engaging in this discussion so no I didn't read it. I just made a definitional remark about the term of art "defund the police", that's all. But to continue my sociolinguistic analysis - Cliques of sociopaths and cults often intentionally come up with completely inane slogans and use them to differentiate between fellow cultists and clique members vs. the outgroup. Somebody who is willing to repeat inane slogans, like "Defund the police!" is likely to be a fellow traveler, those who refuse, show themselves to be independent, and thus potential enemies. And note, repeating a reasonable slogan, like "Reform the police!" would not be a good discriminator - any reasonable person might say it, and the cultists and psychopaths don't want reasonable people messing up their momentum. Don't buy into their figures of speech. They want to mess with your mind, and they use words to do that. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 05:04:55 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:04:55 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:00 PM SR Ballard wrote: > > Antifa exists to move the Overton Window to exclude fascists. Nothing more > or less. > ### Antifa exists to move the Overton window to exclude you, not fascists. Fascists are not even a footnote in this kerfuffle. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 05:07:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2020 22:07:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008e01d67066$82f1ad20$88d50760$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 12:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? When that is gone, then what? soike Oh for sure, as soon as they get organized, they will attack Amazon storage sites. bill w There is a local Amazon storage site which convinces me otherwise. Bezos didn?t get where he is without foresight. He realized Amazon would be compelling targets for larcenous flash mobs, so he designed his local facility with countermeasures against the sort of thing which is indicating the end of the road for traditional retailing. The looting in Chicago will send merchandizing insurance to levels such that competition with Amazon will be impractical. Things will be different. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 05:33:11 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:33:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:57 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Farming is a particularly difficult problem on the moon. It takes > around 25 kW of light on a farming area to support a person. Where > does it come from? You also have to get rid of 25 kW per person. How > is that done? > ### Greenhouses on the Moon would need relatively small openings at the top, with diffusers and UV filters, to provide for plant growth. That should be easy. Of course you would also need energy storage for the lunar nights, but the area of solar cells needed to harvest this energy (at 1.36 kW/sq.m) would not be insanely large. Yes, maintaining greenhouse illumination at night would warm up the greenhouse but active radiative cooling at night would be pretty effective. Being surrounded by a large mass and having access to practically unlimited amounts of mass to construct a settlement on the Moon is a big advantage over orbital habitats. If you need to radiate heat, you just build a bigger radiator farm on the surface and run it all night long. It's much more difficult to build large radiators if you need to launch the building materials and machines from somewhere far away. -------------------- > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > ### How so? The solar constant is the same on the Moon and in orbit. Heat sinks are heavy, brittle, it should be easy to plonk down on the lunar ground rather than lug it all in space. OTOH, a lunar beanstalk is feasible using existing materials, so delivery from the Moon would be actually pretty cheap. I don't know of any major showstoppers to either lunar settlements or habitats but I think at least at small scale the Moon would be easier. Maybe you could mention the problems that don't have recognized solutions. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 05:38:52 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 01:38:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> References: <010001d67032$28408100$78c18300$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:54 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Radiating into cold space feels more like the right answer on the moon. > We would need to shadow the radiator with something, but it gets really > really cold in the shadows there, and all that unobstructed view of cold > space everywhere, that seems like the right answer for waste heat. > ### If heat rejection turns out to be a limiting factor, then real estate near lunar poles would be very valuable, and that not even mentioning the water deposits found preferentially there. Whoever lands first and grabs as much land as they can hold on to, will be rich. I wonder how the property rights will develop there. Land acquisition by homesteading under telluric law? New lunar law? Do you need to bring a shotgun, just in case? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From monteluna at protonmail.com Wed Aug 12 02:44:12 2020 From: monteluna at protonmail.com (Jalil Farid) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 02:44:12 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Prediction Markets to drive innovation Message-ID: Recently Augur underwent it's version 2 upgrade, and so far most of the prediction markets are centered on sports or political betting. I'm interested in hearing thoughts around possible markets that could predict events, hedge against bad outcomes, or even drive technological innovation. Some thoughts I have are: - Hurricane prediction markets to help hedge destruction and possibly signal future danger. - Vaccine creation markets to help predict successes, and also possibly drive collaboration. - Technological outcome markets like Mars landings or even successful orbit launches. Am I missing anything here? What other options are there. I'd love to piece together a framework to get more use out of prediction markets than gambling. Sent from ProtonMail mobile -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 11:17:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 07:17:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:08 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I think Paul von Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but if I >> was a German in 1932 I would've voted for him, and if I survived the >> upcoming war in 1952 I would have look back at that vote with pride. If >> I had voted for his opponent or just not voted at all I would be filled >> with shame, because there is no bottom to bad. > > > *> Recall who Hindenburg helped a certain other person to seize control > about a year later. * > Yes, but there was no way to have known that in 1932. *> I?d say he was one of history?s great enablers.* > Being an enabler is bad, but not as bad as the monster that is being enabled . *> And let?s not forget his role in popularizing the stab in the back myth. > * > No. As I said before, Hindenburg was a pretty terrible human being, but for the purposes of this discussion we CAN forget it. > The best thing about Hindenburg in 1932 was that he wasn?t going to live > that long. > No, that was the very worst thing about him! Hindenburg never lost his popularity with the people, if he had remained healthy and vigorous history might have turned out very differently. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 12:24:36 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:24:36 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:46 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> And yet Romans, just like the Greeks, did not go extinct. >> > > > ### To the contrary, the specific Greeks and Romans who lost their > faith and stopped procreating did actually go extinct. > Obviously. But most Greeks and Romans did NOT stop procreating, and although they may have switched their religious franchise from one to another unfortunately very very few lost their faith. > *Just to be clear - I am a good atheist, won't pull a John C. Wright and > convert but neither do I deny that devout followers of some religions are > better at procreation than atheists. It's a simple statistical fact.* > I don't know what statistics you're talking about but I do know that in general very few people lose their faith, at most they just move from one form of utter nonsense to a slightly different form of utter nonsense, that's it. And most don't even do that. The statistics that affect the birth rate of a country are it's GDP, the emancipation of women, and the availability of birth control; the higher they are the lower the birth rate. The simple statistic that you're looking for is that free rich women with birth control just don't have lots of babies. And it makes little difference what any religious franchise says about the matter, just look at Ireland and how ineffectual the Catholic church's orders to have as many children as is biologically possible have been. In 1965 Irish women had slightly over 4 births during their lifetime, but by 2017 that number had dropped to 1.8 although the church's orders never changed. But what had changed are the economic conditions, as late as 1990 the GDP of Ireland was less than 50 billion but by 2017 it was 382 billion and for its size Ireland is now one of the richest countries in the world. And it's a fact, countries full of rich people just don't have many children. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 12:55:54 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:55:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:56 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> I'm sure sexual selection was a factor but it's a factor in all species, however >> there must be something special about humans because only they have >> developed the sort of intelligence needed to have a technological >> civilization, and I think that special thing is bipedalism. >> > > *> ### Bipedal apes have been walking around for 3.9 million years and > getting nowhere fast.* > On the contrary during that time a great deal happened, in particular the size of their brain increased with an enormous speed that has never been equaled in the entire 3 1/2 billion year history of life on this planet. Why? Because once you have two limbs that are not needed for locomotion and can be used to manipulate things in the environment then getting smarter starts to confer a very strong evolutionary advantage that is worth the increased energy needed to operate that big brain. That would not be true for a zebra because it needs all four limbs just to get around, so it just needs to be smart enough to run away if it sees a lion, any additional intelligence would just be a waste of energy evolutionarily speaking. So zebras never got very smart. * > Then suddenly culture exploded in the past 200 kyr. It wasn't from > improved legs.* > And that was just about the time fully modern human beings evolved and started to show up in the fossil record. > *It wasn't from improved legs.* I agree, our hominid ancestors were walking around on two legs just fine for millions of years before that, and by the standards of their day they had huge brains and were smart as hell, but by our standards they had peabrains and were as dumb as a sack full of doorknobs. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 13:07:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:07:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ### Antifa exists to move the Overton window to exclude you, > If you're really worried about a tiny tiny group like Antifa moving the Overton window then I don't understand why you keep mentioning this very silly group, every time you do so and pretend they are some great global menace you do them a great favor and help them move the Overton window. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 13:25:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:25:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Whatever that means and I don't know bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:16 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Impersonal you. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 11, 2020, at 8:52 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I am a naturalist (atheist) and have not prayed for about 55 years. I do > wish you well but don't think a god will intercede for you. bill w > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think it depends on what you?re praying about. >> >> Some people are offended by the idea always, but others find it a sweet >> thought in the right circumstance. >> >> My thought is, why are you telling me you?re praying for me? >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 11, 2020, at 7:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an >> atheist was condescending and patronizing. >> >> What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as >> feeling sorry? >> >> bill w >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 13:28:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:28:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: yNo, they will come to your house. What is your favorite caliber? Rafal .22 target pistol plus a few bb bats around the house. bill w On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:01 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 12:14 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What happens next? Do they continue, focusing on the mid-level retail? >> When that is gone, then what? >> >> soike >> >> >> Oh for sure, as soon as they get organized, they will attack Amazon >> storage sites. bill w >> > > > ### No windows to smash, solid steel gates, sprinkler systems, private > security. Amazon can defend itself. > > No, they will come to your house. What is your favorite caliber? > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 13:30:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:30:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I would. Rafal Trump is the most vile person I know of and the biggest liar. Fact-checking showed that only one of six things he said during the campaign was true. Birds of a feather, Rafal? On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:36 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:54 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single >>>> vote does not count much? >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, >>> you can't blame me. >>> >> >> We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It >> doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of >> the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it >> is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which >> usually requires leaving the country). >> > > ### No, we are Americans, we are a free people, at least for now, we don't > have a duty to brown-nose the Leviathan by casting usually > meaningless votes. It's only in the Communist Poland that I was forced to > vote in municipal elections, on pain of being investigated by the police > for being an enemy of the state if I didn't show up. > > >> >> Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. >> > > ### If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, > I would. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 13:43:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 06:43:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new new zealand cases Message-ID: <007101d670ae$8f75c9d0$ae615d70$@rainier66.com> I am surprised at how hard it is to find the answer to an obvious question regarding the new New Zealand covid cases. They went over 3 months with no new cases, yesterday they found 4 members of one family testing positive. All the news I can find is about the new New Zealand lockdown, rather than the obvious question for an island with closed borders: how did the virus get there? Did it come in on the mail? Are there still some travelers who are asymptomatic? If it came in with no obvious mechanism, what could be the remaining unknown vector? If there is an unknown vector (such as somehow being carried by birds or bats (?) then how can we be sure that lockdowns work? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 14:06:04 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:06:04 +0100 Subject: [ExI] new new zealand cases In-Reply-To: <007101d670ae$8f75c9d0$ae615d70$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d670ae$8f75c9d0$ae615d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 14:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > I am surprised at how hard it is to find the answer to an obvious question regarding the new New Zealand covid cases. They went over 3 months with no new cases, yesterday they found 4 members of one family testing positive. All the news I can find is about the new New Zealand lockdown, rather than the obvious question for an island with closed borders: how did the virus get there? > > Did it come in on the mail? Are there still some travelers who are asymptomatic? If it came in with no obvious mechanism, what could be the remaining unknown vector? If there is an unknown vector (such as somehow being carried by birds or bats (?) then how can we be sure that lockdowns work? > _______________________________________________ There's no answer yet because they don't know where it came from. They are doing contact tracing and testing trying to find the source. But doing a lockdown just in case, to be cautious. BillK From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 14:24:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:24:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: They absolutely are not a footnote. They are much more than a footnote at the moment. SR Ballard > On Aug 12, 2020, at 12:04 AM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:00 PM SR Ballard wrote: >> >> Antifa exists to move the Overton Window to exclude fascists. Nothing more or less. > > ### Antifa exists to move the Overton window to exclude you, not fascists. Fascists are not even a footnote in this kerfuffle. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 14:50:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:50:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 8:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as > feeling sorry?* > I don't care if somebody is praying for me, there is no way I could could as there is no way for me or for anybody else to detect they had been doing so, but when they take the time to inform me that they are praying for me when they know my thoughts on the subject then I sometimes tend to get a bit annoyed, although I usually manage to hide my displeasure. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 15:29:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:29:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat > ? then I sometimes tend to get a bit annoyed, although I usually manage to hide my displeasure. John K Clark Indeed sir? We didn?t know you were capable of that. Sheesh, sensa huma John, oy. All this cool stuff going on all around us, the LIGO results, the gravity science moving faster and farther in the last 5 years than in our previous lifetimes, quantum supremacy (maybe (depending on how you measure it)), all that cool DNA science on a charge, what a marvelous time to live for science and tech guys. I see a hundred things before breakfast that make me grateful to be alive in 2020. John, we know what annoys you (well, we vaguely suspect it anyway (as you have given us a number of subtle hints (on occasion (continually for the several years)))) but I can?t imagine you or anyone going around like that always (because our mothers warned us your face might stick in that configuration donchaknow) so you must take a break from that emotional state at least occasionally. So tell us John if you will: what brings joy to your heart please? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 15:39:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:39:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> So tell us John if you will: what brings joy to your heart please?* To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 15:47:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:47:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class Message-ID: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> We don't know how the heck we are going to do this. Virtual learning at home starts tomorrow. The medium is either Zoom or Google Meets, teacher's choice. The students have ChromeBooks issued but they are not required to use them. They are required to either use the ChromeBooks or have a webcam so that the teacher can verify if the student actually present (motion, rather than a cardboard image to verify presence) What we don't know is how to deal with privacy in homes or how that will work. Virtual backgrounds are available, but we don't have the authority to compel the students to use them, because some students don't want to use those tiny school-issued ChromeBooks (for understandable reasons) but their own computers do not support virtual backgrounds. How do we deal with privacy please? And what if something bad happens while the camera is rolling. With distance learning, does this count a school shooting? https://cbs12.com/news/local/domestic-shooting-in-indiantown-suspect-in-cust ody And what about that whole dress code thing? We get it on-campus, because high schools have always been a fashion show, and teenage girls have been teasing teenage boys since way back when teenagers were first invented, which was before my time. But the campus dress code doesn't apply to the home, and it is still summer. Of course these young ladies will figure out how to set those cameras at exaaaactly the right height, show up with bare shoulders and just bask in the virtual attention. And what if... some NRA supporter shows up to virtual class with gunracks and disturbing images on the wall behind her, and the other students claim she is breaking their concentration worse than the bare-shouldered young siren? And what if someone has a MAGA hat on the shelf in back there and mass insanity breaks out? We don't know what will happen tomorrow. Speculation please? spike From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 15:58:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 08:58:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005801d670c1$6fceef40$4f6ccdc0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >>? So tell us John if you will: what brings joy to your heart please? >?To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women. John K Clark Sheesh, I vaguely suspected that. Oh dear. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:02:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:02:03 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: <005801d670c1$6fceef40$4f6ccdc0$@rainier66.com> References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> <005801d670c1$6fceef40$4f6ccdc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the lamentations of their women. John K Clark So, you and Trump have a lot in common. Unless you were joking (we hope) bill w On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:00 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > *>>? **So tell us John if you will: what brings joy to your heart please?* > > > > >?To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the > lamentations of their women. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheesh, I vaguely suspected that. Oh dear. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:06:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:06:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: How do we deal with privacy please? spike There is no way you can force people to alter the backgrounds in their homes, so I think that privacy is up to the students, who should be warned about that. What about nudist homes, where Mama might waltz through the house, naked as a rock? Up to them, but that particular example might be a misdemeanor - obscene (how is that women's bodies can be the most beautiful and desired thing and also be obscene? I will wonder about this till I die). bill w On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > We don't know how the heck we are going to do this. > > Virtual learning at home starts tomorrow. The medium is either Zoom or > Google Meets, teacher's choice. The students have ChromeBooks issued but > they are not required to use them. They are required to either use the > ChromeBooks or have a webcam so that the teacher can verify if the student > actually present (motion, rather than a cardboard image to verify presence) > > > What we don't know is how to deal with privacy in homes or how that will > work. Virtual backgrounds are available, but we don't have the authority > to > compel the students to use them, because some students don't want to use > those tiny school-issued ChromeBooks (for understandable reasons) but their > own computers do not support virtual backgrounds. > > How do we deal with privacy please? > > And what if something bad happens while the camera is rolling. With > distance learning, does this count a school shooting? > > > https://cbs12.com/news/local/domestic-shooting-in-indiantown-suspect-in-cust > ody > > And what about that whole dress code thing? We get it on-campus, because > high schools have always been a fashion show, and teenage girls have been > teasing teenage boys since way back when teenagers were first invented, > which was before my time. But the campus dress code doesn't apply to the > home, and it is still summer. Of course these young ladies will figure out > how to set those cameras at exaaaactly the right height, show up with bare > shoulders and just bask in the virtual attention. > > And what if... some NRA supporter shows up to virtual class with gunracks > and disturbing images on the wall behind her, and the other students claim > she is breaking their concentration worse than the bare-shouldered young > siren? And what if someone has a MAGA hat on the shelf in back there and > mass insanity breaks out? > > We don't know what will happen tomorrow. Speculation please? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:15:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:15:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> <005801d670c1$6fceef40$4f6ccdc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:08 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the >> lamentations of their women. > > > *So, you and Trump have a lot in common. Unless you were joking (we > hope) bill w* > Actually I wasn't quoting Trump, I was quoting an equally great thinker and philosopher, Conan the Barbarian. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:22:03 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 17:22:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Aug 2020 at 16:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > We don't know how the heck we are going to do this. > > Virtual learning at home starts tomorrow. The medium is either Zoom or > Google Meets, teacher's choice. The students have ChromeBooks issued but > they are not required to use them. They are required to either use the > ChromeBooks or have a webcam so that the teacher can verify if the student > actually present (motion, rather than a cardboard image to verify presence) > > > What we don't know is how to deal with privacy in homes or how that will > work. Virtual backgrounds are available, but we don't have the authority to > compel the students to use them, because some students don't want to use > those tiny school-issued ChromeBooks (for understandable reasons) but their > own computers do not support virtual backgrounds. > > How do we deal with privacy please? > > And what about that whole dress code thing? > _______________________________________________ Illinois has issued a school zoom dress code. Illinois school district says no pajamas for online classes August 10, 2020 ------------- Maybe other schools have guidelines as well, that you can ask about. Obviously they immediately got complaints from students and parents, but they said they would discuss these in each case. BillK From bmd54321 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:31:17 2020 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:31:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] new new zealand cases In-Reply-To: <007101d670ae$8f75c9d0$ae615d70$@rainier66.com> References: <007101d670ae$8f75c9d0$ae615d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: El 2020-08-12 a las 09:43, spike jones via extropy-chat escribi?: > Did it come in on the mail?? Are there still some travelers who are > asymptomatic?? If it came in with no obvious mechanism, what could be > the remaining unknown vector?? If there is an unknown vector (such as > somehow being carried by birds or bats (?) then how can we be sure that > lockdowns work? My guess: an illegal conjugal visit by someone in the household to someone in quarantine is behind this. From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:42:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:42:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] secret of our success - book Message-ID: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults Rafal's suggestion - I read the review on Amazon and of course had to have the book. Much cheaper on abebooks.com bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 16:44:59 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:44:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <0B5D35A5-D372-4275-B7D9-D3C5D53BA2D1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8F58E139-E214-4FBE-97DB-1A89A81BCA27@gmail.com> Impersonal means not you (personally). As in, meaning ?one? generically rather than you specifically. SR Ballard > On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Whatever that means and I don't know bill w > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 9:16 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> Impersonal you. >> >> SR Ballard >> >>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 8:52 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> I am a naturalist (atheist) and have not prayed for about 55 years. I do wish you well but don't think a god will intercede for you. bill w >>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 7:34 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> I think it depends on what you?re praying about. >>>> >>>> Some people are offended by the idea always, but others find it a sweet thought in the right circumstance. >>>> >>>> My thought is, why are you telling me you?re praying for me? >>>> >>>> SR Ballard >>>> >>>>> On Aug 11, 2020, at 7:13 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Most of us decided, I think, that a religious person feeling sorry for an atheist was condescending and patronizing. >>>>> >>>>> What about prayer? If someone is praying for you, is it the same as feeling sorry? >>>>> >>>>> bill w >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 16:58:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 09:58:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] privacy in class >>?How do we deal with privacy please? spike >?There is no way you can force people to alter the backgrounds in their homes, so I think that privacy is up to the students, who should be warned about that. What about nudist homes, where Mama might waltz through the house, naked as a rock? Up to them, but that particular example might be a misdemeanor - obscene (how is that women's bodies can be the most beautiful and desired thing and also be obscene? I will wonder about this till I die). bill w On the contrary for one adjective please BillW: if mama (or more likely a mischievous sister) strolls by in all her refulgent glory in the student?s background, in the home, that is neither a misdemeanor nor obscene. That person (identity unknown (since she appeared only from the neck down)) was presumably in her own home, where her manner of dress (or un) is her own business. She did not broadcast anything, even if her brother did. Her brother committed no misdemeanor, for there is no evidence he asked, hired, dared, wagered or compelled his accomplice (?) to do that. We are a status-seeking species. It occurred to me there is a clear path to an arbitrarily-large helping of nearly-free risk-free status, one which surely will occur to our young virtual learners, particularly those unfortunate nerds otherwise completely devoid of other sources of actual status (the kind of guys who will go to the most effort to get some (including cost and personal risk (you know the type (hell I AM the type.)))) Envision: teenage with a video camera (I have one) a video projector (I have one) and a silver projector screen (I have one (so all three available to my own son (and presumably others who are far more likely to pull off such a gag)) has everything he needs except one thing perhaps: a cooperative female participant. He sets up his video camera in his own room so that the top of the field of view is about 20 cm below the height of his adventurous sister or friend or hired accomplice. He starts camera, leaves the home. She gets out of uniform, creates a video of herself walking past, stage left to stage right, perhaps pretending to bend down to retrieve an object (buns appear briefly stage right) then walks back across stage right to stage left, perhaps briefly turning to face the camera just to remove any doubt. She dresses and leaves, collecting her 20 bucks perhaps. He returns, turns off video camera. Now? he is ready to pull of the epic gag of the year. OK. Status-free lad goes to virtual class, except instead of his actual room in the background, he has cleverly substituted that silver screen with the video of his room with the cooperative friend/harlot/adventurous sister walking by in the background. Goes to ?class? in the virtual Brady Bunch matrix, Mr. Lorensax droning on about some irrelevant nothing, nekkid girl walks past twice in the background, motion catches the attention of the testosterone-factory classmates, they see it, deluge him with inquiries, at which time he pretends he didn?t notice and didn?t know anyone was ever behind him, weakly suggests he was home alone at the time (and has evidence that his mother and sister were accounted-for elsewhere) answers inquiries on the subject with a clueless whut? where? what girl? I didn?t notice any girl. Oh her, ah, did she do that again? That is just? oh a friend, or you know, someone, well nobody really, sorta? And so on. Keeps em guessing. He becomes a legend, goes from zero to hero in 5 seconds, using only easily-envisioned and broadly available technology, with only a little cleverness required. A smart techy sort might even be able to pull off the same gag using only free internet porn videos. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Aug 12 17:02:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:02:26 +0100 Subject: [ExI] URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f43ee2a-8071-4646-884a-6ebf7de77762@zaiboc.net> On 11/08/2020 20:55, Dylan Distasio wrote: > If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can > use a service like tinyurl.com which lets you > paste in the full link and it will shorten it for you to a very > succinct?one. So it will, but some of use are less concerned with the length of urls than with the click-tracking. Using tinyurl will only make that problem worse, not better. Much worse, in fact, as you can't see the tracking code to strip it off. Personally, I won't click on anonymised links like the tinyurl ones. They can hide a multitude of sins. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 17:16:40 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:16:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: <3f43ee2a-8071-4646-884a-6ebf7de77762@zaiboc.net> References: <3f43ee2a-8071-4646-884a-6ebf7de77762@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: To each their own. I strip all of that stuff you're concerned about either way, but I do use tinyurl on other lists without issues. I won't use it here based on your concern though. On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 1:09 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 11/08/2020 20:55, Dylan Distasio wrote: > > If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use > a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it > will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. > > > So it will, but some of use are less concerned with the length of urls > than with the click-tracking. Using tinyurl will only make that problem > worse, not better. Much worse, in fact, as you can't see the tracking code > to strip it off. Personally, I won't click on anonymised links like the > tinyurl ones. They can hide a multitude of sins. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 17:33:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:33:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <3f43ee2a-8071-4646-884a-6ebf7de77762@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: I just did what Adrian said and removed the ? and everything that followed, checked it out to make sure it went to the right page, which it did, and sent it. No problem bill w On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:18 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > To each their own. I strip all of that stuff you're concerned about > either way, but I do use tinyurl on other lists without issues. I won't > use it here based on your concern though. > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 1:09 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 11/08/2020 20:55, Dylan Distasio wrote: >> >> If you want to shorten urls across the board without editing, you can use >> a service like tinyurl.com which lets you paste in the full link and it >> will shorten it for you to a very succinct one. >> >> >> So it will, but some of use are less concerned with the length of urls >> than with the click-tracking. Using tinyurl will only make that problem >> worse, not better. Much worse, in fact, as you can't see the tracking code >> to strip it off. Personally, I won't click on anonymised links like the >> tinyurl ones. They can hide a multitude of sins. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 17:37:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 10:37:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) Message-ID: <00d101d670cf$388108d0$a9831a70$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? >?To each their own? I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. That particular common saying is causing me deep psychosis, emotional distress, fever, mild headaches, etc. I know we have embraced the plural gender non-specific ?their? to replace the singular gender-specific (but clumsy) his or her. Whenever I hear someone say ?To each their own? the fighting plurality terms sit right next to each other in one short sentence, incompatible as matter and anti-matter. >? I was quoting an equally great thinker and philosopher, Conan the Barbarian? He succeeded wildly. After Conan?s 1982 military victories, he went on to become a governor only 11 years later, holding the office until he termed out 8 years later. Generally popular, what I recall most about Conan?s terms in office were his odd way of pronouncing the name of the state he led (Cah lee FOOORN ya) and his often-reported comment that he was continually surprised at how little actual power that office had, for the state legislature thwarted most everything he wanted to do. His followers were most disappointed he was not eligible for higher office, having been born in Austria. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 18:00:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:00:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: <00d101d670cf$388108d0$a9831a70$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101d670cf$388108d0$a9831a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I'll put a trigger warning on it next time. Also, for the record, I was not using it to be inclusive of the entire alphabet of genders, I just wanted to use the plural. On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 1:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? > > > > >?To each their own? > > > > I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. That > particular common saying is causing me deep psychosis, emotional distress, > fever, mild headaches, etc. > > > > I know we have embraced the plural gender non-specific ?their? to replace > the singular gender-specific (but clumsy) his or her. Whenever I hear > someone say ?To each their own? the fighting plurality terms sit right next > to each other in one short sentence, incompatible as matter and > anti-matter. > > > > >? I was quoting an equally great thinker and philosopher, Conan the > Barbarian? > > > > He succeeded wildly. After Conan?s 1982 military victories, he went on to > become a governor only 11 years later, holding the office until he termed > out 8 years later. Generally popular, what I recall most about Conan?s > terms in office were his odd way of pronouncing the name of the state he > led (Cah lee FOOORN ya) and his often-reported comment that he was > continually surprised at how little actual power that office had, for the > state legislature thwarted most everything he wanted to do. His followers > were most disappointed he was not eligible for higher office, having been > born in Austria. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 12 18:22:55 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:22:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> <005801d670c1$6fceef40$4f6ccdc0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > >> To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear > the lamentations of their women. > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:08 PM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > > /So, you and Trump have a lot in common.? Unless you were?joking (we > hope) bill w/ On 2020-8-12 09:15, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > Actually I wasn't quoting Trump, Likely Bill knew that; it's irrelevant. One could quote certain passages from Martin Luther to lead another to infer, legitimately, that one has something in common with Hitler. > I was quoting an equally great thinker > and philosopher, Conan the Barbarian. Who in turn was misquoting Chingiz iirc. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 12 18:23:33 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:23:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] secret of our success - book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24e8d51f-f51d-658f-18ef-ac99f4669820@pobox.com> On 2020-8-12 09:42, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults Ah now here's a case where the stuff after '?' is important. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 18:38:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:38:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <00d101d670cf$388108d0$a9831a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) >>>?To each their own? >>?I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. >?Sorry, I'll put a trigger warning on it next time?. {8^D Hey, it isn?t easy. I am in constant fear from the popular clamor to defund the grammar police, oy vey. >?Also, for the record, I was not using it to be inclusive of the entire alphabet of genders, I just wanted to use the plural? To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, their own.? I get a lot of strange looks. But I am used to that. If not for strange looks, I would get no looks at all. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 18:56:24 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 11:56:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: ### Greenhouses on the Moon would need relatively small openings at the top, with diffusers and UV filters, to provide for plant growth. I think we are stuck with photosynthetic efficiency of around 1% Humans burn around 100 watts, by the time you have run some of the plants through animals, 25 kW of light on the plants seems like a good first cut. That makes your greenhouse opening around 25 square meters per person. An optimal mix of red and blue LED light is more efficient, but you have to factor in power generation efficiency. ###That should be easy. Of course you would also need energy storage for the lunar nights, And how are you going to do that? Import power walls? ### but the area of solar cells needed to harvest this energy (at 1.36 kW/sq.m) would not be insanely large. 5 x for typical solar cell efficiency, times 3 x for storage and losses, so it is a considerable area. ### Yes, maintaining greenhouse illumination at night would warm up the greenhouse but active radiative cooling at night would be pretty effective. It would be. But getting rid of waste heat is more a daytime problem. Not hard to do, costly in materials. ### Being surrounded by a large mass and having access to practically unlimited amounts of mass to construct a settlement on the Moon is a big advantage over orbital habitats. For humans and the industrial process we use, it's a seriously wrong selection of elements. Some students were once given a stack of high-temperature fire bricks as regolith simulant. No carbon, no chlorine, no lithium. The volatiles were all cooked out. The lunar poles, which humans have not yet sampled, might have a better mix including water ### If you need to radiate heat, you just build a bigger radiator farm on the surface and run it all night long. Storing cold for two weeks takes lots and lots of mass. And not just mass, but fluid to run through it and you don't want leaks. ### It's much more difficult to build large radiators if you need to launch the building materials and machines from somewhere far away. -------------------- > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > ### How so? The solar constant is the same on the Moon and in orbit. For most of the moon, the solar constant is zero for two weeks as a time. ### Heat sinks are heavy, brittle, Why should a heat sink be brittle? I have been involved with design studies since 1977 and that was never a consideration. The most recent ones for power satellites are around a kg/kW. They are tapered plastic tubes filled with low pressure condensing steam at 20 deg C and 2.4 kPa. They depend on zero-g and would not work on the lunar surface. ### it should be easy to plonk down on the lunar ground rather than lug it all in space. ### OTOH, a lunar beanstalk is feasible using existing materials, so delivery from the Moon would be actually pretty cheap. It's worth looking at the minimum startup mass for a lunar elevator if you have not done so. It's daunting. Using climbers, the throughput is just awful. A loop moving cable does better, but even at 2000 km/hr, it takes 25 hours to get out to L1. Of course, mass drivers are as bad or worse. ### I don't know of any major showstoppers to either lunar settlements or habitats but I think at least at small scale the Moon would be easier. ### Maybe you could mention the problems that don't have recognized solutions. The worst problem is why? Why are people needed on the moon at all? None of this is impossible, just expensive. ISS costs $100 B. A minimal 100 person moon colony might cost one or two trillion. The next worse problem is radiation. There are solutions, but it is not obvious that people can live underground Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:10:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 14:10:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: A smart techy sort might even be able to pull off the same gag using only free internet porn videos. spike *Add Photoshop, so you can put the principal's head on Long John Silver and you have it. bill w* On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] privacy in class > > > > >>?How do we deal with privacy please? spike > > > > >?There is no way you can force people to alter the backgrounds in their > homes, so I think that privacy is up to the students, who should be warned > about that. What about nudist homes, where Mama might waltz through the > house, naked as a rock? Up to them, but that particular example might be a > misdemeanor - obscene (how is that women's bodies can be the most beautiful > and desired thing and also be obscene? I will wonder about this till I > die). bill w > > > > > > On the contrary for one adjective please BillW: if mama (or more likely a > mischievous sister) strolls by in all her refulgent glory in the student?s > background, in the home, that is neither a misdemeanor nor obscene. That > person (identity unknown (since she appeared only from the neck down)) was > presumably in her own home, where her manner of dress (or un) is her own > business. She did not broadcast anything, even if her brother did. Her > brother committed no misdemeanor, for there is no evidence he asked, hired, > dared, wagered or compelled his accomplice (?) to do that. > > > > We are a status-seeking species. It occurred to me there is a clear path > to an arbitrarily-large helping of nearly-free risk-free status, one which > surely will occur to our young virtual learners, particularly those > unfortunate nerds otherwise completely devoid of other sources of actual > status (the kind of guys who will go to the most effort to get some > (including cost and personal risk (you know the type (hell I AM the > type.)))) > > > > Envision: teenage with a video camera (I have one) a video projector (I > have one) and a silver projector screen (I have one (so all three available > to my own son (and presumably others who are far more likely to pull off > such a gag)) has everything he needs except one thing perhaps: a > cooperative female participant. > > > > He sets up his video camera in his own room so that the top of the field > of view is about 20 cm below the height of his adventurous sister or friend > or hired accomplice. He starts camera, leaves the home. She gets out of > uniform, creates a video of herself walking past, stage left to stage > right, perhaps pretending to bend down to retrieve an object (buns appear > briefly stage right) then walks back across stage right to stage left, > perhaps briefly turning to face the camera just to remove any doubt. She > dresses and leaves, collecting her 20 bucks perhaps. He returns, turns off > video camera. Now? he is ready to pull of the epic gag of the year. > > > > OK. Status-free lad goes to virtual class, except instead of his actual > room in the background, he has cleverly substituted that silver screen with > the video of his room with the cooperative friend/harlot/adventurous sister > walking by in the background. Goes to ?class? in the virtual Brady Bunch > matrix, Mr. Lorensax droning on about some irrelevant nothing, nekkid girl > walks past twice in the background, motion catches the attention of the > testosterone-factory classmates, they see it, deluge him with inquiries, at > which time he pretends he didn?t notice and didn?t know anyone was ever > behind him, weakly suggests he was home alone at the time (and has evidence > that his mother and sister were accounted-for elsewhere) answers inquiries > on the subject with a clueless whut? where? what girl? I didn?t notice > any girl. Oh her, ah, did she do that again? That is just? oh a friend, > or you know, someone, well nobody really, sorta? > > > And so on. Keeps em guessing. > > > > He becomes a legend, goes from zero to hero in 5 seconds, using only > easily-envisioned and broadly available technology, with only a little > cleverness required. A smart techy sort might even be able to pull off the > same gag using only free internet porn videos. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 12 19:15:03 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:15:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> References: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Personally, I?m a fan of Tim Leary?s solution to this gender specific pronoun issue. He proposed the gender unifying sHe or s/he, hir, hirs, and hirself which obviously never caught on. I submit that people resist change even if the current state is flawed. -Henry >> On Aug 12, 2020, at 2:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > > > > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) > >>>?To each their own? > >>?I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. > >?Sorry, I'll put a trigger warning on it next time?. > > {8^D Hey, it isn?t easy. I am in constant fear from the popular clamor to defund the grammar police, oy vey. > > >?Also, for the record, I was not using it to be inclusive of the entire alphabet of genders, I just wanted to use the plural? > > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, their own.? > > I get a lot of strange looks. But I am used to that. If not for strange looks, I would get no looks at all. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:22:16 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:22:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If we all go back to speaking Latin, we get rid of some of these issues. Of course, we also lose the wonderful flexibility of English to incorporate a wide variety of foreign words with ever evolving (devolving?) grammar. On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 3:18 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personally, I?m a fan of Tim Leary?s solution to this gender specific > pronoun issue. He proposed the gender unifying sHe or s/he, hir, hirs, and > hirself which obviously never caught on. I submit that people resist change > even if the current state is flawed. > -Henry > > On Aug 12, 2020, at 2:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? > again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) > > >>>?To each their own? > > >>?I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. > > >?Sorry, I'll put a trigger warning on it next time?. > > > > {8^D Hey, it isn?t easy. I am in constant fear from the popular clamor > to defund the grammar police, oy vey. > > > > >?Also, for the record, I was not using it to be inclusive of the entire > alphabet of genders, I just wanted to use the plural? > > > > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, their > own.? > > > > I get a lot of strange looks. But I am used to that. If not for strange > looks, I would get no looks at all. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:37:12 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:37:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: If the school issued a disclaimer that they're not able to "enforce" but instead strongly "suggest" a code of conduct, couldn't social mores/taboo take care of the 2-3 "standard deviations" from population average? ;) We're quarantined because a killer has literally "gone viral" and people still want to get upset over puritan ideology about nakedness? Why?? All of whatever background is really real in someone's home workspace [homework space?] is part of their self expression. I don't want my liberties infringed upon, so I have to accept that others might exercise their freedom too. So ok, perhaps i don't want to see your content... why isn't the control for background or gallery presence in MY control?? I find it incredibly irritating when people use cursive font in business chat, as if they should be allowed to make text harder for me to read. Should I be allowed to color-correct my outbound video so I appear to be in film noir? Or maybe I'd like everyone to appreciate colorblindness so skew the amount of red I send to them. Isn't this technology just exacerbating the problems we've had maintaining civilization [sic] in it's present form? So let's get on with making some new rules. What IS worth worrying about? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 19:47:09 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:47:09 -0400 Subject: [ExI] prayer In-Reply-To: References: <003601d670bd$5dc74a80$1955df80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:32 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> So tell us John if you will: what brings joy to your heart please?* > > > To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the > lamentations of their women. > I suspect you would turn to complaining about the methods of crushing, the slowness of the driving, and the pitch of the lamentations. I suspect it because I can relate. I've recently become aware of just how bad-for-me is cortisol, so I'm trying to wean myself from the "fight or fight anyway" default state. It's harder than quitting nicotine. I'd say harder than quitting caffeine, but I suspect that caffeine is actually involved here so idk. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 12 19:59:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 12:59:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d670e3$1669ae00$433d0a00$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] privacy in class >?If the school issued a disclaimer that they're not able to "enforce" but instead strongly "suggest" a code of conduct, couldn't social mores/taboo take care of the 2-3 "standard deviations" from population average? ;) ? >?Isn't this technology just exacerbating the problems we've had maintaining civilization [sic] in it's present form? So let's get on with making some new rules. What IS worth worrying about? Mike Mike I am one who sees the glass not just half full, but really full in all the ways that matter, because the glass can be refilled arbitrarily many times. That one glass can fill a swimming pool if one is patient enough. Distance learning not as a crisis at all, but rather a marvelous opportunity. While recognizing it is a crisis for some, it is a marvelous opportunity for all, to pull off epic gags. It is a severe crisis for those who refuse to seize the opportunity presented. But if done with the skill and careful planning, we could see epic gags people will still be talking about at their 50 year class reunion. But spike, one may object. When you were in high school, did you have nothing better to do than plan and execute epic gags? To this I might reply, Well, I suppose that depends on what your definition of ?better? is is. My own 40th high school reunion has passed. There was biggest topic of discussion, the requisite preliminary pleasantries about who has had the most children, who has had the fewest divorces etc. The discussion soon turned to our devilish capers and epic gags. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 20:03:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:03:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 2:19 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Personally, I?m a fan of Tim Leary?s solution to this gender specific > pronoun issue. He proposed the gender unifying sHe or s/he, hir, hirs, and > hirself which obviously never caught on. I submit that people resist change > even if the current state is flawed. > -Henry > In light of the vacillating nature of gender roles and all, and not to avoid the neuter, which might be the next one, I propose 'he/she/it'. Henry, I just got a book called Duped, copyright 2020, that is the most compelling, interesting, impressive book in social psych I have ever seen, and I just finished the Preface!! It's called Duped - about persuasion, ability to detect lying, ability to lie, and so on - funded by the FBI and others. Literally hundreds of studies worldwide before he even wrote the book. bill w https://smile.amazon.com/s > > On Aug 12, 2020, at 2:38 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? > again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) > > >>>?To each their own? > > >>?I am considering seeking profession help to get over this. > > >?Sorry, I'll put a trigger warning on it next time?. > > > > {8^D Hey, it isn?t easy. I am in constant fear from the popular clamor > to defund the grammar police, oy vey. > > > > >?Also, for the record, I was not using it to be inclusive of the entire > alphabet of genders, I just wanted to use the plural? > > > > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, their > own.? > > > > I get a lot of strange looks. But I am used to that. If not for strange > looks, I would get no looks at all. > > > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 20:05:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:05:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn Henry Message-ID: I am now told that the shortened link I sent to you probably won't work, so just go to Amazona and look for Duped - Tim Levine bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 20:11:15 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:11:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <052372B2-88D5-460E-AC45-43870AFDD032@gmail.com> I don?t know that personal attacks are really warranted, especially in regards to politics. I agree with Mod in that regard. SR Ballard > On Aug 12, 2020, at 8:30 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I would. > > Rafal > Trump is the most vile person I know of and the biggest liar. Fact-checking showed that only one of six things he said during the campaign was true. Birds of a feather, Rafal? > > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 10:36 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:54 PM Adrian Tymes wrote: >>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:53 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>>> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 5:30 AM Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> What is the justification for not voting, beyond the fact that a single vote does not count much? >>>>> >>>> >>>> ### I want to avoid legitimizing the system. If I never voted for it, you can't blame me. >>> >>> We can totally blame you for neglecting to do your civic duty. It doesn't matter if you never asked for it; just by being an adult citizen of the United States of America, your choices are to have that duty (though it is possible to shirk the duty) or to renounce your citizenship (which usually requires leaving the country). >> >> ### No, we are Americans, we are a free people, at least for now, we don't have a duty to brown-nose the Leviathan by casting usually meaningless votes. It's only in the Communist Poland that I was forced to vote in municipal elections, on pain of being investigated by the police for being an enemy of the state if I didn't show up. >> >>> >>> Certain people not voting was part of how Trump got into office. >> >> ### If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I would. >> >> Rafal >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 20:14:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:14:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] privacy in class In-Reply-To: <003601d670e3$1669ae00$433d0a00$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d670bf$d2b378d0$781a6a70$@rainier66.com> <00a401d670c9$c10a6670$431f3350$@rainier66.com> <003601d670e3$1669ae00$433d0a00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'd like to hear some of the gags. We had an old geometry teacher - very old - and half blind (but very alert - she had her geometry book memorized and when she saw a student make a mistake she'd say "turn to page blah blah and look at theorem 25.6"). Guys would take her protractor (compass?) that she used to draw circles on the board, remove the chalk, and put a cigarette butt in it. And draw lines on the floor with chalk which she would try to pick up. And tie a wire to the shade and jiggle it at random during the class. The men's restroom was above us and guys would flush cherry bombs down the commode which exploded like they were in our room. bill w On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 3:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] privacy in class > > > > >?If the school issued a disclaimer that they're not able to "enforce" but > instead strongly "suggest" a code of conduct, couldn't social mores/taboo > take care of the 2-3 "standard deviations" from population average? ;) > > ? > > >?Isn't this technology just exacerbating the problems we've had > maintaining civilization [sic] in it's present form? So let's get on with > making some new rules. What IS worth worrying about? Mike > > > > Mike I am one who sees the glass not just half full, but really full in > all the ways that matter, because the glass can be refilled arbitrarily > many times. That one glass can fill a swimming pool if one is patient > enough. > > > > Distance learning not as a crisis at all, but rather a marvelous > opportunity. While recognizing it is a crisis for some, it is a marvelous > opportunity for all, to pull off epic gags. It is a severe crisis for > those who refuse to seize the opportunity presented. But if done with the > skill and careful planning, we could see epic gags people will still be > talking about at their 50 year class reunion. > > > > But spike, one may object. When you were in high school, did you have > nothing better to do than plan and execute epic gags? > > > > To this I might reply, Well, I suppose that depends on what your > definition of ?better? is is. > > > > My own 40th high school reunion has passed. There was biggest topic of > discussion, the requisite preliminary pleasantries about who has had the > most children, who has had the fewest divorces etc. The discussion soon > turned to our devilish capers and epic gags. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 12 20:26:04 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 13:26:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-12 13:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Henry, I just got a book called Duped, copyright 2020, that is the most > compelling, interesting, impressive book in social psych I have ever > seen, and I just finished the Preface!! > It's called Duped - about persuasion, ability to detect lying, ability > to lie, and so on - funded by the FBI and others.? Literally hundreds of > studies worldwide before he even wrote the book.? bill w > > https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=duped+truth+default+theory+tim+levine&crid=6USAFSX04CJ5&sprefix=duped%2Caps%2C180&ref=nb_sb_ss_ac-o-p_1_5 That search shows many books with the same title; here is the one you meant more directly: https://www.amazon.com/Duped-Truth-Default-Theory-Science-Deception/dp/0817359680/ref=sr_1_2 -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ExiMod at protonmail.com Wed Aug 12 21:08:05 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 21:08:05 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <052372B2-88D5-460E-AC45-43870AFDD032@gmail.com> References: <052372B2-88D5-460E-AC45-43870AFDD032@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Wednesday, 12 August 2020 21:11, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > I don?t know that personal attacks are really warranted, especially in regards to politics. I agree with Mod in that regard. > > SR Ballard It is part of the Exi List Agreement that personal attacks or ad hominem are not allowed at any time, not just in political arguments. If this happens to any list member they should ask the list moderator to deal with the problem. ExiMod -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 22:19:15 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 15:19:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] new new zealand cases Message-ID: wrote: > I am surprised at how hard it is to find the answer to an obvious question regarding the new New Zealand covid cases. They went over 3 months with no new cases, yesterday they found 4 members of one family testing positive. All the news I can find is about the new New Zealand lockdown, rather than the obvious question for an island with closed borders: how did the virus get there? > Did it come in on the mail? That would be my guess. I think mail might be one case in a million, but you get millions of mail deliveries, that's going to occasionally cause cases to crop up. Another example was a cluster of around 50 cases near Beijing that look like the virus came in on refrigerated or frozen fish from Europe. I presume they will sequence the virus. There is enough variation now that the origin of those cases can probably be traced to a geographical location. Then you start asking the family where they got mail from. I can't find the reference, but I remember a case back in the 1950s where an isolated base in the antarctic had a cold epidemic after a mail drop. > Are there still some travelers who are asymptomatic? If it came in with no obvious mechanism, what could be the remaining unknown vector? If there is an unknown vector (such as somehow being carried by birds or bats (?) then how can we be sure that lockdowns work? Birds, no. Bats, possible but very, very unlikely. However, I would consider the virus possibly circulating in cats and possibly dogs. Again, this is unlikely, but this is one event in the whole NZ population, so you have to consider the unlikely such as mail and cats. And lockdowns clearly work to reduce the spread of the virus. But having worked, the highly susceptible population makes NZ into a sensitive culture test plate . I will follow this with great interest. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 23:21:21 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 16:21:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: <010301d670d7$c17f8e10$447eaa30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 1:06 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In light of the vacillating nature of gender roles and all, and not to > avoid the neuter, which might be the next one, I propose 'he/she/it'. > To be pronounced (as it would inevitably be contracted), "heshit"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 12 23:23:13 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:23:13 -0400 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent: RE: URLs (was: Re: statins bad? again? sorry - I did not know where to cut it off. bill w) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07AC8270-58BF-43A4-9066-2DAA614549DC@alumni.virginia.edu> Thanks both of you. That sounds like a book worth checking out. I got a kick out of Bill saying (I?m obviously paraphrasing) it?s the best thing since sliced bread and he had only finished the Preface. It seems to me that Bill has read a lot, so that?s saying something. This started as the statin thread, which makes me chuckle. So what about all the previous studies that showed statins have saved or extended significantly an estimated hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives? Thirty million Americans annually sciencedaily.com said. Was that bad science, bad data, incomplete data, or were there confounding variables? Is it a matter of degree? Like, sure they save lives... But by only by a year, and only if one is over 80. -Henry > On Aug 12, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?On 2020-8-12 13:03, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> Henry, I just got a book called Duped, copyright 2020, that is the most compelling, interesting, impressive book in social psych I have ever seen, and I just finished the Preface!! >> It's called Duped - about persuasion, ability to detect lying, ability to lie, and so on - funded by the FBI and others. Literally hundreds of studies worldwide before he even wrote the book. bill w >> https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=duped+truth+default+theory+tim+levine&crid=6USAFSX04CJ5&sprefix=duped%2Caps%2C180&ref=nb_sb_ss_ac-o-p_1_5 > > That search shows many books with the same title; > here is the one you meant more directly: > https://www.amazon.com/Duped-Truth-Default-Theory-Science-Deception/dp/0817359680/ref=sr_1_2 > > > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 23:37:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 18:37:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins Message-ID: Did you get the link to the People's Pharmacy? In it they reference the latest studies. Maybe we have the same situation as when the paid-off Harvard doctors cited fats rather than sugar as a problem in heart diseases. Statins have meant billions of dollars for Big Pharm. 200 books a year, estimation - about half nonfiction. I don't watch TV or do much of anything else, and now with the heart thing I am mostly confined to my chair. But I have been reading like a shark eats since I retired - 1997. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:21:51 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:21:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] statins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 00:40, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Did you get the link to the People's Pharmacy? In it they reference the latest studies. > > Maybe we have the same situation as when the paid-off Harvard doctors cited fats rather than sugar as a problem in heart diseases. Statins have meant billions of dollars for Big Pharm. > > 200 books a year, estimation - about half nonfiction. I don't watch TV or do much of anything else, and now with the heart thing I am mostly confined to my chair. But I have been reading like a shark eats since I retired - 1997. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ This new statins report is much criticised in an analysis from the Science Media Centre. Basically the critics seem to be saying that the three authors made mistakes in their statistical analysis and reached wrong conclusions. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 00:48:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 19:48:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] statins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, Bill K, you know as well or better than I do that money plays a role in the doctor - Big Pharm relationship. Who is paid what? We'll never know. But we do know that payola exists on a big scale. Some statisticians, I truly think, massage the data until it tells them what they want it to. I remember from statistics long ago wondering why you would normalize data, or convert it to logs, or some other manipulation. That struck me then as now as cheating. Lies, damn lies, and statistics - Mark Twain. bill w On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 7:24 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 00:40, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Did you get the link to the People's Pharmacy? In it they reference the > latest studies. > > > > Maybe we have the same situation as when the paid-off Harvard doctors > cited fats rather than sugar as a problem in heart diseases. Statins have > meant billions of dollars for Big Pharm. > > > > 200 books a year, estimation - about half nonfiction. I don't watch TV > or do much of anything else, and now with the heart thing I am mostly > confined to my chair. But I have been reading like a shark eats since I > retired - 1997. > > > > bill w > > _______________________________________________ > > > This new statins report is much criticised in an analysis from the > Science Media Centre. > > < > https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-analysis-of-clinical-trial-data-on-cholesterol-lowering-drugs-and-targets-for-bad-cholesterol-levels/ > > > > Basically the critics seem to be saying that the three authors made > mistakes in their statistical analysis and reached wrong conclusions. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 03:15:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:15:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 8:56 AM John Clark wrote: > Because once you have two limbs that are not needed for locomotion and can > be used to manipulate things in the environment then getting smarter starts > to confer a very strong evolutionary advantage that is worth the increased > energy needed to operate that big brain. > ### Chickens are bipedal. How does it jibe with your theory about bipedal gait as the prime driving force for brain development? Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 03:44:49 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:44:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 8:25 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 11:46 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> And yet Romans, just like the Greeks, did not go extinct. >>> >> >> > ### To the contrary, the specific Greeks and Romans who lost their >> faith and stopped procreating did actually go extinct. >> > > Obviously. But most Greeks and Romans did NOT stop procreating, and > although they may have switched their religious franchise from one to > another unfortunately very very few lost their faith. > ### Let me rephrase your statement to make it coherent - "Fortunately for the survival of Greeks and Romans, enough adopted a procreation-enhancing faith". --------------------------------- > > > *Just to be clear - I am a good atheist, won't pull a John C. Wright >> and convert but neither do I deny that devout followers of some religions >> are better at procreation than atheists. It's a simple statistical fact.* >> > > I don't know what statistics you're talking about but I do know that in > general very few people lose their faith, at most they just move from one > form of utter nonsense to a slightly different form of utter nonsense, > that's it. > ### This is not true at all. Religious affiliation statistics in multiple formerly Christian and Moslem countries clearly show increasing numbers of atheists, non-believers, spiritual believers and the like, and a reduction in orthodox practitioners, and a concomitant drop in fertility. Major religions provide a social structure that promotes fertility, this is how those religions became major in the first place. As the religious fervor of the adherents wanes (i.e. they no longer treat their faith seriously, they only go through the motions, if at all), the structure unravels and no longer stimulates fertility. Former adherents die out, to be replaced by various reborn or new faith ones. The wheel of destiny grinds on. ------------------------------- > And most don't even do that. The statistics that affect the birth rate of > a country are it's GDP, the emancipation of women, and the availability of > birth control; the higher they are the lower the birth rate. The simple > statistic that you're looking for is that free rich women with birth > control just don't have lots of babies. > ### "Emancipation" of women is just a term for apostasy. Birth control is practiced when religion becomes too weak to prohibit it. Some correlates of GDP (Internet access, television, single family dwellings, increased family mobility, compulsory schooling, etc) reduce fertility and religiousness, probably creating positive feedback loops that disrupt fertility. Either way, the defeat of major religions spells doom for the population. ------------------------------ > > > And it makes little difference what any religious franchise says about the > matter, just look at Ireland and how ineffectual the Catholic church's > orders to have as many children as is biologically possible have been. In > 1965 Irish women had slightly over 4 births during their lifetime, but by > 2017 that number had dropped to 1.8 although the church's orders never > changed. But what had changed are the economic conditions, as late as 1990 > the GDP of Ireland was less than 50 billion but by 2017 it was 382 billion > and for its size Ireland is now one of the richest countries in the world. > And it's a fact, countries full of rich people just don't have many > children. > ### What changed is that the Irish women stopped believing in god, stopped going to church, stopped belonging to groups where procreation is celebrated rather than scorned. The Catholic church does not matter anymore because the Irish do not believe in god, and yes, the Irish are dying out. This is not a coincidence. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 03:51:20 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:51:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] end of the road for bricks and mortar In-Reply-To: References: <020a01d66ff4$721c29c0$56547d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:28 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > yNo, they will come to your house. What is your favorite caliber? > > Rafal > > .22 target pistol plus a few bb bats around the house. bill w > ## Ay vey! 9 mm hollow point is the least you should have, unless you are using an FN 509 or the like. I am partial to S&W40. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 03:56:04 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 23:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard wrote about US Nazis: They absolutely are not a footnote. They are much more than a footnote at > the moment. > > ### How many people have they killed this year in the US? How many city blocks do they hold under control? How many Jews have they beaten up recently? How many thousands of windows have they broken last month? US Nazis are almost entirely a figment of leftist imagination, carefully distilled out of scraps of nothing by the leftist mass media. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 04:56:43 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 00:56:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 2:58 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > ###That > should be easy. Of course you would also need energy storage for the lunar > nights, > > And how are you going to do that? Import power walls? > ### Molten salt storage driving steam generators? Nuclear generators on the surface, with immediate heat rejection to space and energy transmission to underground living areas? ----------------------- > > ### but the area of solar cells needed to harvest this energy (at 1.36 > kW/sq.m) would not be insanely large. > > 5 x for typical solar cell efficiency, times 3 x for storage and > losses, so it is a considerable area. > ### Well, initially surface availability would not be a limiting factor. The important question would be, how many hours of robotic work would it take to build the infrastructure needed to support one person. If the ROI is very low, the doubling time from the initial technology seed would be too long to make it viable. --------------------------------------------- > > ### Yes, maintaining greenhouse > illumination at night would warm up the greenhouse but active radiative > cooling at night would be pretty effective. > > It would be. But getting rid of waste heat is more a daytime problem. > Not hard to do, costly in materials. > ### If you are dug in, you can defer heat rejection until the night comes. With enough mass between you and the surface you can even out the diurnal swings. ------------------------------------- > > ### Being surrounded by a large mass and having access to practically > unlimited > amounts of mass to construct a settlement on the Moon is a big advantage > over orbital habitats. > > For humans and the industrial process we use, it's a seriously wrong > selection of elements. Some students were once given a stack of > high-temperature fire bricks as regolith simulant. No carbon, no > chlorine, no lithium. The volatiles were all cooked out. The lunar > poles, which humans have not yet sampled, might have a better mix > including water > ### How deep do you need to dig to get what you need? Notably, even if the Moon is not the best source of building materials, it still beats empty space, where orbitals would have to be built out of 100% imported materials. ---------------------------------------------- > > ### If you need to radiate heat, you just build a bigger > radiator farm on the surface and run it all night long. > > Storing cold for two weeks takes lots and lots of mass. And not just > mass, but fluid to run through it and you don't want leaks. > ### Yes, this makes things more expensive. Finding enough water on the Moon would make it much cheaper. -------------------- > > > > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > > > > ### How so? The solar constant is the same on the Moon and in orbit. > > For most of the moon, the solar constant is zero for two weeks as a time. > ### Conservatively you need 100 m2 of hydroponic surface with 40 W/m2 illumination per person, so 4 kW during the night but running at a 12 hour cycle so 2 kW per person during lunar night to keep your plants alive. This is not a lot. Having only half the solar energy available would about triple the amount of photovoltaics needed per person compared to an orbital habitat, yes, but as I said, having all that lunar mass around you would more than make up for that in many ways. -------------------------------------- > > ### Heat sinks are heavy, brittle, > > Why should a heat sink be brittle? I have been involved with design > studies since 1977 and that was never a consideration. The most > recent ones for power satellites are around a kg/kW. They are tapered > plastic tubes filled with low pressure condensing steam at 20 deg C > and 2.4 kPa. They depend on zero-g and would not work on the lunar > surface. > ### Good to know! Now, has there any work been done on heat sinks adapted to lunar gravity? Is there a reason why such heat sinks would be in principle less efficient than zero-g ones? ----------------------------------- > > ### Maybe you could mention the problems that don't have recognized > solutions. > > The worst problem is why? Why are people needed on the moon at all? > ### Why not? If an affluent person can afford the trip, many will. I would, if the social situation was right. --------------------------- > None of this is impossible, just expensive. ISS costs $100 B. A > minimal 100 person moon colony might cost one or two trillion. > ### Not if we have a 50 ton 90%-self-replicating technology delivered at 100$/kg. Sure, using NASA-level inefficiency would make the whole endeavor completely useless but I am talking about orders of magnitude improvements in launch and build efficiency that should be possible with conceivable technologies. -------------------------- > > The next worse problem is radiation. There are solutions, but it is > not obvious that people can live underground ### People definitely can live underground, deep enough to take care of cosmic radiation. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 05:02:16 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 01:02:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:31 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I > would. > > Rafal > Trump is the most vile person I know of and the biggest liar. > Fact-checking showed that only one of six things he said during the > campaign was true. Birds of a feather, Rafal? > > ### Did you check the fact-checker? You know of Hitler and you still think Trump is the most vile? Using hyperbole is dangerous, you can end up believing the things you say. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 05:07:24 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:07:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] cortisol was Re: prayer Message-ID: Mike Dougherty wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: snip > To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the > lamentations of their women. At first, I thought this was a biblical quote, but it seems to be from Conan the Barbarian movie and was probably derived from Genghiz Khan.. > I suspect you would turn to complaining about the methods of crushing, the slowness of the driving, and the pitch of the lamentations. > I suspect it because I can relate. > I've recently become aware of just how bad-for-me is cortisol, so I'm trying to wean myself from the "fight or fight anyway" default state. It's harder than quitting nicotine. I'd say harder than quitting caffeine, but I suspect that caffeine is actually involved here so idk. I was not aware that the medical profession prescribed long term use of cortisol. I have only one experience with it. A long time ago, in the mid-1960s at the time I went back to school, I had mononucleosis. Worst sore throat in my life. I was prescribed a tapered cortisol treatment. Impressive stuff. I work up the next day ready to punch holes in steel plate. Worked it off weeding the front yard. Didn't help much with the sore throat as I recall. But from my short exposure, I can see how it could be addictive. Best of luck Mike Keith PS. You might try nicotinamide riboside as something with similar but milder effects. Email me for details. From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 05:13:03 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2020 22:13:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: Keith Henson wrote: wrote: snip >> Did it come in on the mail? > That would be my guess. Spike and I are likely wrong. it seems to have come in refrigerated containers. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 10:22:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 06:22:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:18 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: ### Chickens are bipedal. How does it jibe with your theory about bipedal > gait as the prime driving force for brain development? > Chickens have two legs and two wings, both are needed for locomotion and none are available for manipulating objects in the environment. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 11:28:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:28:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] comments? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:18 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *### Chickens are bipedal. How does it jibe with your theory about > bipedal gait as the prime driving force for brain development?* > Kangaroos would be a better counterexample to my argument than chickens, and that indicates that bipedalism is not a sufficient factor to produce intelligence, but I insist it is necessary. An Einstein zebra on the African savanna would have no more survival value than a regular old dumb zebra, in fact it would have less because it would be wasting energy operating a huge brain that may have great ideas but would be unable to put any of them into effect. Thus Evolution would have no reason to produce an Einstein zebra. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 11:48:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:48:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] atheists/religion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:47 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> most Greeks and Romans did NOT stop procreating, and although they may >> have switched their religious franchise from one to another unfortunately >> very very few lost their faith. >> > > *> ### Let me rephrase your statement to make it coherent -* > I think it's quite coherent just as it is. > >"Fortunately for the survival of Greeks and Romans, enough adopted a > procreation-enhancing faith". > I know of no evidence that the birth rate in the Roman world changed significantly either up or down after 313 A.D. when the emperor Constantine became a Christian, in fact in 313 I seriously doubt that there was even a Christian doctrine on birth control or how many children people should have. >> in general very few people lose their faith, at most they just move from >> one form of utter nonsense to a slightly different form of utter nonsense, >> that's it. >> > > *> **### This is not true at all. * > I think it is, for example I think there are very few atheists in Iran, although a few may have changed their absurd belief to a very slightly different absurd belief. And I fail to see an obvious connection between the belief or non-belief in an invisible man in the sky who can do anything and the number of children one wishes to have. > *Major religions provide a social structure that promotes fertility,* That depends. In 1979 when the religious fanatics took over the average woman in Iran gave birth to nearly 7 children, but today that number is 2.12, and the government (AKA the religious nuts in charge) actually did something rational for once in their lives and urged people to have fewer children. But all of this is really irrelevant, because none of the major religions existed when our hominid ancestors evolved their huge brain. I would surmise that our hominid ancestors probably didn't even realize there is a relationship between having sex and having children, they just figured at a certain age members of their kind started to fuck around and at a simalr age females of their kind started to have children, but it never occurred to them that there was a relationship between the two. > * > The Catholic church does not matter anymore because the Irish do not > believe in god, and yes, the Irish are dying out. This is not a > coincidence.* > The Irish birth rate is down but they're not going extinct. The birth rate of the entire human race is going down too, in 1950 the average woman on our planet gave birth to over five children, today it's about 2 1/2. The Human Species isn't going extinct either, at least not because of falling birth rates. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 12:02:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:02:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:06 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> You know of Hitler and you still think Trump is the most vile? * Time will tell, but my guess is Trump probably is not Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong or Pol Pot level evil, but Mussolini level evil is not out of the question. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 12:57:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:57:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The True Coronavirus Toll Message-ID: Based on the greatly increased number of deaths from all causes in the USA this year compared with previous years the New York Times presents evidence that the true number of deaths from COVID-19 is not 169146 as the official numbers say but is well over 200,000; although I'm sure right wingers will say the excess deaths were caused by grief because liberals forced owners of tattoo parlors to close down their business. The True Coronavirus Toll in the U.S. Has Already Surpassed 200,000 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 13:15:02 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 06:15:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The True Coronavirus Toll In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005501d67173$c32cd000$49867000$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] The True Coronavirus Toll >? I'm sure right wingers will say the excess deaths were caused by grief because liberals forced owners of tattoo parlors to close down their business. The True Coronavirus Toll in the U.S. Has Already Surpassed 200,000 John K Clark I don?t see why they should have privileged status. Tattoo artists were never singled out. The tattoo customers can wait along with the rest of us. I can?t imagine why delaying a tattoo would cause death, any more than delaying haircuts. Some of the barber shops are open, if they can move their chairs outdoors. Those chairs, capable of adjusting height at rotating about a vertical axis, are heavy. Most barbers around here are petite, so it is a job moving those things in and out every day. It occurred to me that a new business opportunity presents itself: lightweight (or wheeled) barber chairs. Everything isn?t politics. Some things are technology. This is technology and medicine. School starts today. Some students are returning to campus. Good luck to us. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 13:30:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:30:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] cortisol was Re: prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I cannot remember the drug, but it is in suntan treatments and is a numbing agent. When I had a terrible sore throat my Dr. prescribed it as a gargle. Without it I could not even eat,but with it it numbed me down pretty good. Couldn't taste much, but didn't care. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 12:10 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Mike Dougherty wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020, 11:42 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > snip > > > To crush my enemies, to see them driven before me, and to hear the > > lamentations of their women. > > At first, I thought this was a biblical quote, but it seems to be from > Conan the Barbarian movie and was probably derived from Genghiz Khan.. > > > I suspect you would turn to complaining about the methods of crushing, > the > slowness of the driving, and the pitch of the lamentations. > > > I suspect it because I can relate. > > > I've recently become aware of just how bad-for-me is cortisol, so I'm > trying to wean myself from the "fight or fight anyway" default state. It's > harder than quitting nicotine. I'd say harder than quitting caffeine, but > I suspect that caffeine is actually involved here so idk. > > I was not aware that the medical profession prescribed long term use > of cortisol. I have only one experience with it. A long time ago, in > the mid-1960s at the time I went back to school, I had mononucleosis. > Worst sore throat in my life. I was prescribed a tapered cortisol > treatment. Impressive stuff. I work up the next day ready to punch > holes in steel plate. Worked it off weeding the front yard. Didn't > help much with the sore throat as I recall. > > But from my short exposure, I can see how it could be addictive. > > Best of luck Mike > > Keith > > PS. You might try nicotinamide riboside as something with similar but > milder effects. Email me for details. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 13:32:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:32:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The True Coronavirus Toll In-Reply-To: <005501d67173$c32cd000$49867000$@rainier66.com> References: <005501d67173$c32cd000$49867000$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:17 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Everything isn?t politics.* But every blunder that has caused the US to suffer from this pandemic far more than it needed to *has* been political, and I'm not talking about subtle errors in logic, I'm talking about ridiculous decisions like deciding to make wearing facemasks part of the culture wars. Thus it's absolutely ridiculous to say it's OK to talk in depth about the pandemic as long as it's not political, it's like saying it's OK to talk about theology and religious wars as long as you don't mention God. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 13:54:01 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:54:01 +0100 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% Message-ID: Quote: Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate picture of the epidemic. The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of people in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a reduction of 12%. ------------- They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the seriousness of the pandemic. Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country and causing a recession. They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 14:22:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:22:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003401d6717d$232200d0$69660270$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat ubject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% Quote: >...Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate picture of the epidemic. >...The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of people in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a reduction of 12%. ------------- >...They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the seriousness of the pandemic. Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country and causing a recession. >...They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! >...BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK We have lost some important data on this side of the pond too. We can take the overall death rate this year, subtract the average and we get a number. In the states, we can do that exercise in every state and compare how the quarantines were handled. The number we get is a mixture of those who perished from the virus and those who perished as an indirect result of the virus such as closing businesses, fear causing business failures and compelling sick people to stay away from the hospital when it might have saved them. I didn't talk to Steve Van Sickle before he passed to see if he was avoiding the doctor for fear of covid, but I am one who will go nowhere near that hospital, not to get a C-19 test, not for an annual checkup, not for any reason. If I end up there, it is because I was carried there on a stretcher in the back of a truck with blinkety lights on top. We have lost important and useful data from the Sturgis bike rally because we failed to organize a means of tracking the participants upon their return. Belgium kept telling us that comparing these numbers is meaningless because they are counted differently from one country to the next. Sounds to me like they were telling the truth. In the states, hospitals are strained to the point of going out of business. The hospital where I was born (painfully many decades ago) closed its doors for lack of customers last month. Hospitals were incentivized to report fatalities as covids to tap into a federal fund. Our Lady of Bellefonte in Kentucky didn't have enough covid cases to stay in business, and the others wouldn't go there. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 14:51:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 09:51:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is my earnest hope that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao have set records for killing people that will last forever. Surely among the worst people who have ever lived. But let's take a look at Trump without the politics: from the first he has advocated things that have with a virtual certainty influenced his followers, some of whom likely believe everything he says, to react to the virus in ways that have, without any doubt, led to their spreading or getting the virus, of which some died. He is responsible for that and he does not care, because he apparently thinks that reactions to the virus can hurt his chances of re-election. I may not have this exactly right, but I think that he had medical aid cut off to his niece's child because she wrote a book about him. How vile do you want? He can't wait to call Harris 'nasty'. He is the poster boy for anti feminisn "grab 'em by the pussy'. If anyone does not find the above vile, then I say they are like him. 16,000+ lies. Maybe by the time I get through with Duped I will understand why anyone at all believes him. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 12:05 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 9:31 AM William Flynn Wallace > wrote: > >> If I could cast a thousand votes for Trump in the closest state race, I >> would. >> >> Rafal >> Trump is the most vile person I know of and the biggest liar. >> Fact-checking showed that only one of six things he said during the >> campaign was true. Birds of a feather, Rafal? >> >> > ### Did you check the fact-checker? > > You know of Hitler and you still think Trump is the most vile? > > Using hyperbole is dangerous, you can end up believing the things you say. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 14:57:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 07:57:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d67182$074d4540$15e7cfc0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 6:54 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% < https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53722711> Quote: Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate picture of the epidemic. The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of people in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a reduction of 12%. ------------- ... >.They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, the change in methodology took UK from number 3 to number 6. Belgium is still saying these numbers are counted differently because they included a bunch of fatalities with flu-like symptoms that might not have been covid. There are two small countries which are questionable because of small numbers and uncertainty in counting: # Country, Other Total Cases New Cases Total Deaths New Deaths Total Recovered Active Cases Serious, Critical Tot Cases/ 1M pop Deaths/ 1M pop Total Tests Tests/ 1M pop Population 1 San Marino 699 42 657 0 20,596 1,238 6,068 178,791 33,939 2 Belgium 75,647 +639 9,900 +15 17,883 47,864 76 6,524 854 1,912,240 164,911 11,595,564 3 Andorra 977 53 855 69 1 12,642 686 3,750 48,525 77,280 4 Peru 498,555 21,713 341,938 134,904 1,501 15,097 657 2,643,464 80,047 33,023,850 5 Spain 376,864 28,579 N/A N/A 617 8,060 611 7,472,031 159,806 46,756,944 6 UK 313,798 41,329 N/A N/A 70 4,620 608 18,868,566 277,774 67,927,863 7 Italy 251,713 35,225 202,697 13,791 53 4,164 583 7,369,576 121,910 60,451,116 8 Sweden 83,852 5,770 N/A N/A 30 8,297 571 917,036 90,736 10,106,627 9 Chile 378,168 10,205 351,419 16,544 1,268 19,763 533 1,908,964 99,762 19,135,201 10 USA 5,363,354 +3,052 169,181 +50 2,813,837 2,380,336 17,314 16,192 511 67,613,960 204,130 331,229,890 11 Brazil 3,170,474 104,263 2,309,477 756,734 8,318 14,903 490 13,231,548 62,197 212,735,424 12 France 206,696 30,371 83,472 92,853 379 3,166 465 5,500,000 84,239 65,290,667 13 Mexico 498,380 +5,858 54,666 +737 336,635 107,079 3,775 3,861 423 1,127,115 8,731 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ Using trend analysis, we can predict that Brazil will bump USA down to number 11 about a week from now, however both will bump Sweden down about a coupla weeks after that. New York and New Jersey will stay waaaaay the hell on top of the chart if we break it down by jurisdiction. If done that way, eight US states will hold positions 1 thru 8 with few challengers, unless other countries break down their statistics by jurisdiction as well. In order of ignominy: Louisiana, Arizona, New York, New Jersey, Florida, Mississippi, Rhode Island, Massachusetts all have higher fatalities per capita than San Marino. San Marino? How the heck do they figure that isn't part of Italy? And why isn't Andorra considered part of France or Spain? These little guys are messing up our data. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 15:00:27 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:00:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: <003401d6717d$232200d0$69660270$@rainier66.com> References: <003401d6717d$232200d0$69660270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: What I would like to see: data on people who have survived the virus. How has it affected their health weeks and months later. I see a report that myocarditis can follow this infection. Maybe if more people knew things like that they would quit comparing it to the flu. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > ubject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% > > > Quote: > >...Previously, people in England who died at any point following a > positive > test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. > But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate > picture of the epidemic. > > >...The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of > people > in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a > reduction of 12%. > ------------- > > >...They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the > seriousness of the pandemic. > Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country > and causing a recession. > > >...They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both > recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". > Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone > back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! > > >...BillK > _______________________________________________ > > Hi BillK > > We have lost some important data on this side of the pond too. We can take > the overall death rate this year, subtract the average and we get a number. > In the states, we can do that exercise in every state and compare how the > quarantines were handled. The number we get is a mixture of those who > perished from the virus and those who perished as an indirect result of the > virus such as closing businesses, fear causing business failures and > compelling sick people to stay away from the hospital when it might have > saved them. > > I didn't talk to Steve Van Sickle before he passed to see if he was > avoiding > the doctor for fear of covid, but I am one who will go nowhere near that > hospital, not to get a C-19 test, not for an annual checkup, not for any > reason. If I end up there, it is because I was carried there on a > stretcher > in the back of a truck with blinkety lights on top. > > We have lost important and useful data from the Sturgis bike rally because > we failed to organize a means of tracking the participants upon their > return. > > Belgium kept telling us that comparing these numbers is meaningless because > they are counted differently from one country to the next. Sounds to me > like they were telling the truth. In the states, hospitals are strained to > the point of going out of business. > > The hospital where I was born (painfully many decades ago) closed its doors > for lack of customers last month. Hospitals were incentivized to report > fatalities as covids to tap into a federal fund. Our Lady of Bellefonte in > Kentucky didn't have enough covid cases to stay in business, and the others > wouldn't go there. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 15:03:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 08:03:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?If anyone does not find the above vile, then I say they are like him? bill w BillW, the question is not whether it is vile, the question is whether it is true. How do we know? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Aug 13 17:15:10 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:15:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2475F101-426A-4C59-981D-70CA16F3150E@alumni.virginia.edu> I recognize you all are talking about the death count. But I want to bring to your attention an equally slippery number which is the case count. Local hospital COOs I?ve heard from are convinced the positive case counts in the US at least are a vast underestimate due to a lack of available/accessible testing and many people who got sick opting not to get tested. Spike was a case in point for example if I recall correctly. -Henry > On Aug 13, 2020, at 11:11 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > What I would like to see: data on people who have survived the virus. How has it affected their health weeks and months later. I see a report that myocarditis can follow this infection. Maybe if more people knew things like that they would quit comparing it to the flu. bill w > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >> ubject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% >> >> >> Quote: >> >...Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive >> test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. >> But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate >> picture of the epidemic. >> >> >...The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of people >> in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a >> reduction of 12%. >> ------------- >> >> >...They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the >> seriousness of the pandemic. >> Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country >> and causing a recession. >> >> >...They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both >> recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". >> Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone >> back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! >> >> >...BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Hi BillK >> >> We have lost some important data on this side of the pond too. We can take >> the overall death rate this year, subtract the average and we get a number. >> In the states, we can do that exercise in every state and compare how the >> quarantines were handled. The number we get is a mixture of those who >> perished from the virus and those who perished as an indirect result of the >> virus such as closing businesses, fear causing business failures and >> compelling sick people to stay away from the hospital when it might have >> saved them. >> >> I didn't talk to Steve Van Sickle before he passed to see if he was avoiding >> the doctor for fear of covid, but I am one who will go nowhere near that >> hospital, not to get a C-19 test, not for an annual checkup, not for any >> reason. If I end up there, it is because I was carried there on a stretcher >> in the back of a truck with blinkety lights on top. >> >> We have lost important and useful data from the Sturgis bike rally because >> we failed to organize a means of tracking the participants upon their >> return. >> >> Belgium kept telling us that comparing these numbers is meaningless because >> they are counted differently from one country to the next. Sounds to me >> like they were telling the truth. In the states, hospitals are strained to >> the point of going out of business. >> >> The hospital where I was born (painfully many decades ago) closed its doors >> for lack of customers last month. Hospitals were incentivized to report >> fatalities as covids to tap into a federal fund. Our Lady of Bellefonte in >> Kentucky didn't have enough covid cases to stay in business, and the others >> wouldn't go there. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 17:35:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:35:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Whether what is true, Spike? I think there is ample evidence for everything I said. If there is not, I'd certainly like to know about it. Of course the bit about his followers not wearing masks and getting infected IS an assumption. A good one or I would not have posted it. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:20 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > > > *>?*If anyone does not find the above vile, then I say they are like him? > > bill w > > > > > > > > *BillW, the question is not whether it is vile, the question is whether it > is true. How do we know?* > > > > *spike* > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 17:45:38 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 10:45:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 2:58 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > ###That > should be easy. Of course you would also need energy storage for the lunar > nights, > > And how are you going to do that? Import power walls? > ### Molten salt storage driving steam generators? The salts used on earth include nitrogen. There is no nitrogen on the moon. There may be a suitable salt for such storage available but I have never heard of one. ### Nuclear generators on the surface, with immediate heat rejection to space and energy transmission to underground living areas? The reactor would have to come from the earth. Same with the steam turbines. Later it should be possible to mine regolith for the metals in it. But the regolith is so poor in free metals that some people think the wear on the mining machines will be more than the metal recovered. > ### but the area of solar cells needed to harvest this energy (at 1.36 > kW/sq.m) would not be insanely large. > > 5 x for typical solar cell efficiency, times 3 x for storage and > losses, so it is a considerable area. ### Well, initially surface availability would not be a limiting factor. The important question would be, how many hours of robotic work would it take to build the infrastructure needed to support one person. It's more complicated. There is a diseconomy of scale for solar plants and waste heat radiators. Explained page 6 here: https://space.nss.org/wp-content/uploads/L5-News-1979-07.pdf for solar panels, the mass of the conductors starts to dominate. ### If the ROI is very low, the doubling time from the initial technology seed would be too long to make it viable. When you mention ROI, then you must have a profit model in mind for what lunar settlers are doing. Building condos or what? > ### Yes, maintaining greenhouse > illumination at night would warm up the greenhouse but active radiative > cooling at night would be pretty effective. > > It would be. But getting rid of waste heat is more a daytime problem. > Not hard to do, costly in materials. ### If you are dug in, you can defer heat rejection until the night comes. With enough mass between you and the surface you can even out the diurnal swings. You have to get the heat in and out. What are you proposing for the heat transfer fluid? Oxygen from lunar rock or water is often considered but it causes a serious fire hazard > ### Being surrounded by a large mass and having access to practically > unlimited > amounts of mass to construct a settlement on the Moon is a big advantage > over orbital habitats. > > For humans and the industrial process we use, it's a seriously wrong > selection of elements. Some students were once given a stack of > high-temperature fire bricks as regolith simulant. No carbon, no > chlorine, no lithium. The volatiles were all cooked out. The lunar > poles, which humans have not yet sampled, might have a better mix > including water ### How deep do you need to dig to get what you need? No idea. Deep as you want and you will still not get carbon on the vast majority of the lunar surface. You *might* get a little carbon from the poles. ###, even if the Moon is not the best source of building materials, it still beats empty space, where orbitals would have to be built out of 100% imported materials. Al Globus thinks a LEO habitat can be constructed for a tiny fraction of a moon settlement. I have the same objection, what are they doing there? Al's concept of them living in orbit and telecommuting to earth strikes me as unlikely. > > ### If you need to radiate heat, you just build a bigger > radiator farm on the surface and run it all night long. > > Storing cold for two weeks takes lots and lots of mass. And not just > mass, but fluid to run through it and you don't want leaks. ### Yes, this makes things more expensive. Finding enough water on the Moon would make it much cheaper. You still need pipes, lots and lots of pipes. Import or build a pipe factory? What do you make them from? How much mass for the pipe factory? > > > > > Free space O"Neill type colonies are a lot less difficult with respect > > to energy (light) for plants and heat sinks. > > > > ### How so? The solar constant is the same on the Moon and in orbit. > > For most of the moon, the solar constant is zero for two weeks as a time. > ### Conservatively you need 100 m2 of hydroponic surface with 40 W/m2 illumination per person, A maze field on earth has a peak illumination of about 1 kW/m^2. Some plants will grow at 40 W/m^2, but I don't think humans eat any of them. ### so 4 kW during the night but running at a 12 hour cycle so 2 kW per person during lunar night to keep your plants alive. This is not a lot. Having only half the solar energy available would about triple the amount of photovoltaics needed per person compared to an orbital habitat, yes, but as I said, having all that lunar mass around you would more than make up for that in many ways. -------------------------------------- > > ### Heat sinks are heavy, brittle, > > Why should a heat sink be brittle? I have been involved with design > studies since 1977 and that was never a consideration. The most > recent ones for power satellites are around a kg/kW. They are tapered > plastic tubes filled with low pressure condensing steam at 20 deg C > and 2.4 kPa. They depend on zero-g and would not work on the lunar > surface. > ### Good to know! Now, has there any work been done on heat sinks adapted to lunar gravity? No. This kind of radiator depends on the droplets staying entrained in the steam. A lunar version would have to cope with water running down to the low point inside the tubes. ### Is there a reason why such heat sinks would be in principle less efficient than zero-g ones? This kind of radiator will not work at all in any gravity field. > > ### Maybe you could mention the problems that don't have recognized > solutions. > > The worst problem is why? Why are people needed on the moon at all? > ### Why not? If an affluent person can afford the trip, many will. I would, if the social situation was right. --------------------------- > None of this is impossible, just expensive. ISS costs $100 B. A > minimal 100 person moon colony might cost one or two trillion. > ### Not if we have a 50 ton 90%-self-replicating technology delivered at 100$/kg. I would like to see a proposal for this device even at the block diagram. The best proposals I know about are $100/lg to LEO. There is a large multiplier to put cargo on the lunar surface, perhaps x 40 over LEO. ### Sure, using NASA-level inefficiency would make the whole endeavor completely useless but I am talking about orders of magnitude improvements in launch and build efficiency that should be possible with conceivable technologies. I agree if you are talking about nanotechnology. If you are talking nanotech, landing a coke can sized package is enough to industrialize the moon. But this side of the singularity, I don't think it is in the cards. > > The next worse problem is radiation. There are solutions, but it is > not obvious that people can live underground ### People definitely can live underground, deep enough to take care of cosmic radiation. Can you think of an example where people live underground for years? I don't know of any. Even being inside and able to look out windows causes serious mental problems for a lot of people if they do it too long. Keith From dsunley at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 18:02:52 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:02:52 -0600 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: <2475F101-426A-4C59-981D-70CA16F3150E@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2475F101-426A-4C59-981D-70CA16F3150E@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: If the case counts are badly underestimated, but the death counts are approximately correct, then the case fatality rate, which is what has scared the entire public health system half to death, and which has been used to justify the near-complete upheaval of our entire society, is badly /over/estimated. See, this is why people aren't trusting "experts" like they used to. On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I recognize you all are talking about the death count. But I want to bring > to your attention an equally slippery number which is the case count. Local > hospital COOs I?ve heard from are convinced the positive case counts in the > US at least are a vast underestimate due to a lack of available/accessible > testing and many people who got sick opting not to get tested. Spike was a > case in point for example if I recall correctly. > > -Henry > > On Aug 13, 2020, at 11:11 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > What I would like to see: data on people who have survived the virus. > How has it affected their health weeks and months later. I see a report > that myocarditis can follow this infection. Maybe if more people knew > things like that they would quit comparing it to the flu. bill w > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >> ubject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% >> >> >> Quote: >> >...Previously, people in England who died at any point following a >> positive >> test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. >> But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate >> picture of the epidemic. >> >> >...The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of >> people >> in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a >> reduction of 12%. >> ------------- >> >> >...They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the >> seriousness of the pandemic. >> Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country >> and causing a recession. >> >> >...They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both >> recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". >> Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get >> everyone >> back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! >> >> >...BillK >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Hi BillK >> >> We have lost some important data on this side of the pond too. We can >> take >> the overall death rate this year, subtract the average and we get a >> number. >> In the states, we can do that exercise in every state and compare how the >> quarantines were handled. The number we get is a mixture of those who >> perished from the virus and those who perished as an indirect result of >> the >> virus such as closing businesses, fear causing business failures and >> compelling sick people to stay away from the hospital when it might have >> saved them. >> >> I didn't talk to Steve Van Sickle before he passed to see if he was >> avoiding >> the doctor for fear of covid, but I am one who will go nowhere near that >> hospital, not to get a C-19 test, not for an annual checkup, not for any >> reason. If I end up there, it is because I was carried there on a >> stretcher >> in the back of a truck with blinkety lights on top. >> >> We have lost important and useful data from the Sturgis bike rally because >> we failed to organize a means of tracking the participants upon their >> return. >> >> Belgium kept telling us that comparing these numbers is meaningless >> because >> they are counted differently from one country to the next. Sounds to me >> like they were telling the truth. In the states, hospitals are strained >> to >> the point of going out of business. >> >> The hospital where I was born (painfully many decades ago) closed its >> doors >> for lack of customers last month. Hospitals were incentivized to report >> fatalities as covids to tap into a federal fund. Our Lady of Bellefonte >> in >> Kentucky didn't have enough covid cases to stay in business, and the >> others >> wouldn't go there. >> >> spike >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Aug 13 18:08:00 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:08:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62a93157-90da-3070-1813-0f2692c87dc8@zaiboc.net> On 12/08/2020 20:37, Spike wrote: > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, > their own.? But Spike, that doesn't work at all. It implies that everyone has the same 'own', as 'all' is collective. "To each their own" makes explicit that each person has their (his/her/its) own preference. But then, I've never seen any problem with 'their' or 'they' to refer to either multiple or unspecified single individuals. I use it all the time. If anyone wants to object, well, they can, but I regard it as their own problem, not mine. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 18:11:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:11:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: <2475F101-426A-4C59-981D-70CA16F3150E@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2475F101-426A-4C59-981D-70CA16F3150E@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <004301d6719d$2f5f7ec0$8e1e7c40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2020 10:15 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% >?I recognize you all are talking about the death count. But I want to bring to your attention an equally slippery number which is the case count. Local hospital COOs I?ve heard from are convinced the positive case counts in the US at least are a vast underestimate due to a lack of available/accessible testing and many people who got sick opting not to get tested. Spike was a case in point for example if I recall correctly. -Henry Hi Henry, I have never trusted that case number Henry. It depends on how many people get tested. I was sick as hell in December and January, the tests at the hospital showed negative for the kinds of flu they are designed to test, so they knew it was something else besides that, led to pneumonia. My bride and son both were sick about a coupla weeks after I was, but neither had a severe case. My son?s wasn?t a big deal at all: he didn?t even miss a day of school. None of the three of us have ever been tested. I see a clear mechanism whereby the case count could be vastly undercounted (which is good news in a way) while the fatality rate could be systematically overcounted (which is also good news in a way.) Reasoning: the lethality ratio would be overestimated by a high count on the numerator and a low count on the denominator. I have had two appointments to be tested, both postponed. My appointment to do that is now set for November. We have plenty of reasons to distrust the case count. Every country in the world has let politics and economics mix with science, we all know what happens in those circumstances. Every country gets to set their own rules on what counts and what doesn?t. Various jurisdictions have varying rules on who gets to feed data up to the top levels. They aren?t carrying along caveats at the ground level (that is a huge indication of a corrupted dataset in itself (sheesh such an embarrassing rookie error too.)) Now we see more and more rookie errors being made, such as that huge biker rally at Sturgis, oh that was a grand opportunity lost. We could even get past the politics to some extent (what political party are bikers?) and collect a good dataset, but as far as I know, opportunity slipped away, for some of the bikers already returned home, some are just now arriving, and we may lose any semblance of signal in the noise. Damn. My intuition tells me that bike rally with a quarter of a million riders should be a super-spreader event. They cancelled the rally, but it went ahead anyway, so no one is blamed politically. If that rally doesn?t create a new surge, then I don?t know anything about how the flu spreads. In any case? I would think the death count is more a reliable number because they do test the corpses. We know they are including accidents, suicides, suspected cases and all that, well OK then. We are back to looking at increase in mortality rates for the year and recognizing that that number is a mixture of those who died of covid, with covid and those who died as an indirect result of the consequences of covid for other reasons. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 18:17:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:17:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] i can relate Message-ID: <005701d6719d$ffd435f0$ff7ca1d0$@rainier66.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63087 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 18:36:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:36:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? Whether what is true, Spike? I think there is ample evidence for everything I said. If there is not, I'd certainly like to know about it. Of course the bit about his followers not wearing masks and getting infected IS an assumption. A good one or I would not have posted it. bill w We see counts of this guy?s followers or that guy?s followers wearing masks or not wearing masks, without evidence of whose followers they are or under what conditions they wear a mask or don?t wear it. We have no evidence that they are anyone?s followers in that particular decision, or anyone?s followers in any decision. Not all people are followers. Consider that big biker rally in South Dakota. Whose followers are bikers? Evidence please? All these are assumptions, and all are suspect from the start. Anytime science is mixed with politics and economics, the result cannot be trusted. I don?t. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 19:01:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:01:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?Consider that big biker rally in South Dakota. Whose followers are bikers? ? spike If you can answer that question, try these: Whose followers are mask wearers? Whose followers are non-mask wearers? Do non-followers wear masks? How would we know, on any of these questions? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Aug 13 19:04:14 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 12:04:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever Message-ID: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > It is my earnest hope that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao have set records for > killing people that will last forever. Surely among the worst people who > have ever lived. Those guys might have been bad by 20th century standards, but none of them set any records. In fact the record is still held by Ghenghis Khan who killed over 40 million people. That is more than Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot combined. Furthermore there were fewer people in the world back during the Mongolian conquest so Ghenghis Khan has been credited with killing fully 5% of the world population at the time. According to scientists, Ghenghis Khan killed enough people to stop deforestation and allow trees to regrow thus reducing carbon dioxide levels and temporarily reversing global warming. https://www.livescience.com/11739-wars-plagues-carbon-climate.html Ghenghis Khan also united pretty much all of Asia with part of Europe in the largest land empire of all time, making the Silk Road safe for merchants to travel and thereby promoting trade between east and west. He did lots of other surprisingly good things things too like abolishing slavery and torture throughout his empire. https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/68894/11-cultural-breakthroughs-genghis-khan-achieved-during-his-reign So perhaps real people are a little more complex than the simple moral absolutism of good and evil allows. In fact, whenever someone is called "evil" these days, it is almost always politically-motivated hyperbole. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 19:07:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:07:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent In-Reply-To: <62a93157-90da-3070-1813-0f2692c87dc8@zaiboc.net> References: <62a93157-90da-3070-1813-0f2692c87dc8@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Shakespeare used 'they' and 'them' as singular. Tell 'em that. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:11 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 12/08/2020 20:37, Spike wrote: > > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, > > their own.? > > But Spike, that doesn't work at all. It implies that everyone has the > same 'own', as 'all' is collective. "To each their own" makes explicit > that each person has their (his/her/its) own preference. > > But then, I've never seen any problem with 'their' or 'they' to refer to > either multiple or unspecified single individuals. I use it all the > time. If anyone wants to object, well, they can, but I regard it as > their own problem, not mine. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 19:44:16 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:44:16 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 10:54 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is my earnest hope that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao have set records for > killing people that will last forever. > I hope so too but I rather doubt it because there is no bottom to bad. But who knows, in 1932 many people knew Hitler was evil but I don't think even the most pessimistic realized just how evil he would prove to be. > I may not have this exactly right, but I think that he had medical aid > cut off to his niece's child because she wrote a book about him. You're close, as vengeance Donald Trump cut off Medical insurance for a very sick child because the child's father was trying to get his fair share of his inheritance from his billionaire grandfather Frank Trump, or if not his fair share at least a few crumbs. He failed utterly, Donald ended up with nearly all the money. Soon after the myth of the self made man began. > He is the poster boy for anti feminisn "grab 'em by the pussy'. If > anyone does not find the above vile, then I say they are like him. 16,000+ > lies Not counting the lies he told during the last presidential campaign before he was in office as president Trump passed the 20,000 lie mark on July 13, exactly one month ago. And his lie rate is increasing. Trump has told as many public lies in the last 14 months as he had in the previous 27 months. The number of lies he told in private is unknown but it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume it's considerable. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:01:46 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:01:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?" I'm not opposed to trying them because any health risk from wearing one seems low, That said, there is quite a substantial body of evidence that surgical masks are not of much value in stopping small infectious agents, let alone cloth ones and bandannas. It's also a big assumption to believe people are wearing and handling them properly. And please don't label me a mask denier for following the actual science in questioning their utility. Like I said, I wear one myself, but I have grown increasingly skeptical of how much difference they make in transmission. On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:03 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >?Consider that big biker rally in South Dakota. Whose followers are > bikers? ? spike > > > > > > If you can answer that question, try these: > > > > Whose followers are mask wearers? > > Whose followers are non-mask wearers? > > Do non-followers wear masks? > > How would we know, on any of these questions? > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:01:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:01:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:11 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *whenever someone is called "evil" these days, it is almost always > politically-motivated hyperbole.* If you believe the word "evil" can never be properly used in the sentence, as it appears you do, does that mean you think the word should be abolished from the English language as Orwell abolished words in Newspeak in 1984? Newspeak dictionaries got smaller each year, should the same thing happen for English dictionaries? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 13 20:12:52 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:12:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <9d7a4fe1-fc2e-c238-bc86-08821cf7b25f@pobox.com> On 2020-8-13 12:04, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > According to scientists, Ghenghis Khan killed enough people to stop > deforestation and allow trees to regrow thus reducing carbon dioxide > levels and temporarily reversing global warming. I've heard the same said of the New World plagues after Columbus. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:13:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:13:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] i can relate In-Reply-To: <005701d6719d$ffd435f0$ff7ca1d0$@rainier66.com> References: <005701d6719d$ffd435f0$ff7ca1d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thumbs up for that one. Here's what it takes: I had a 101 student, gender unknown, who put Psycology 101 on the test. I gave a dire warning for that. Did it again! "If I see the name of this course misspelled again I will do my best to have that student not only fail this course, but get kicked out of the university." It worked. Repeating mistakes on essay tests was just horrible, even though I pointed that out endless times. Not reading the question, not reading their own answer.............. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:23 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 63087 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:13:10 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:13:10 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I agree very much with what you wrote, particularly in the case of the great Khan. However, your opinion of him was different if you were unlucky enough to be in Baghdad when he got there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258) On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:10 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > It is my earnest hope that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao have set records for > > killing people that will last forever. Surely among the worst people > who > > have ever lived. > > Those guys might have been bad by 20th century standards, but none of > them set any records. In fact the record is still held by Ghenghis > Khan who killed over 40 million people. That is more than Stalin, > Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot combined. Furthermore there were fewer people > in the world back during the Mongolian conquest so Ghenghis Khan has > been credited with killing fully 5% of the world population at the time. > > According to scientists, Ghenghis Khan killed enough people to stop > deforestation and allow trees to regrow thus reducing carbon dioxide > levels and temporarily reversing global warming. > > https://www.livescience.com/11739-wars-plagues-carbon-climate.html > > Ghenghis Khan also united pretty much all of Asia with part of Europe > in the largest land empire of all time, making the Silk Road safe for > merchants to travel and thereby promoting trade between east and west. > He did lots of other surprisingly good things things too like > abolishing slavery and torture throughout his empire. > > > https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/68894/11-cultural-breakthroughs-genghis-khan-achieved-during-his-reign > > So perhaps real people are a little more complex than the simple moral > absolutism of good and evil allows. In fact, whenever someone is > called "evil" these days, it is almost always politically-motivated > hyperbole. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:25:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:25:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?" * > The IHME computer model (Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation), which Trump frequently cited in the early days of the pandemic before its predictions became too dark and too accurate for his taste, says 160,000 more Americans will die of COVID-19 between now and December 1, but if 95% of the people wore face masks when they went out of their houses there would be 66,000 fewer deaths than that. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they are one hell of a lot more likely to be right than you or I are after studying the very complex science of epidemiology for no more than 20 minutes. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:26:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:26:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? > > > > Whether what is true, Spike? I think there is ample evidence for > everything I said. If there is not, I'd certainly like to know about it. > Of course the bit about his followers not wearing masks and getting > infected IS an assumption. A good one or I would not have posted it. bill > w > > > > > > > > We see counts of this guy?s followers or that guy?s followers wearing > masks or not wearing masks, without evidence of whose followers they are or > under what conditions they wear a mask or don?t wear it. We have no > evidence that they are anyone?s followers in that particular decision, or > anyone?s followers in any decision. Not all people are followers. > > consider that big biker rally in South Dakota. Whose followers are > bikers? Evidence please? > > > > All these are assumptions, and all are suspect from the start. Anytime > science is mixed with politics and economics, the result cannot be > trusted. I don?t. > As far as I can tell, you are talking about the one thing I labeled as an assumption. I have no idea who if anyone, the bikers follow, and it has no relationship to my thinking. > I am not sure what else this relates to of what I posted. If you don't > believe that he influenced people about masks (or about the quinine drug), > I am totally aghast. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:35:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:35:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813120414.Horde.lnRNQO_hSEWvnwzVihF1eAj@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: And Hitler loved dogs. So what? If you put the good on one side of the scale and the bad on the other, where does Genghis Khan's scale tilt? I do totally agree that probably no one in history was totally, 100% evil, and that good and evil are nebulous concepts (that they are endlessly discussed by philosophers is one clue) applied by people with their own biases. But I have no trouble calling one murderer evil (if it is established that he did not act in self-defense, blah blah blah). What if a person does something with totally pure intentions, but it turns out badly (involuntary manslaughter, for one - "Just having a bit of a fight, eh?")? Furthermore, he does not follow up to see the consequences because he has no empathy and hence doesn't care, and so continues to do the same thing? Like Anders, I am a consequentialist. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 2:11 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > It is my earnest hope that Stalin, Hitler, and Mao have set records for > > killing people that will last forever. Surely among the worst people > who > > have ever lived. > > Those guys might have been bad by 20th century standards, but none of > them set any records. In fact the record is still held by Ghenghis > Khan who killed over 40 million people. That is more than Stalin, > Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot combined. Furthermore there were fewer people > in the world back during the Mongolian conquest so Ghenghis Khan has > been credited with killing fully 5% of the world population at the time. > > According to scientists, Ghenghis Khan killed enough people to stop > deforestation and allow trees to regrow thus reducing carbon dioxide > levels and temporarily reversing global warming. > > https://www.livescience.com/11739-wars-plagues-carbon-climate.html > > Ghenghis Khan also united pretty much all of Asia with part of Europe > in the largest land empire of all time, making the Silk Road safe for > merchants to travel and thereby promoting trade between east and west. > He did lots of other surprisingly good things things too like > abolishing slavery and torture throughout his empire. > > > https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/68894/11-cultural-breakthroughs-genghis-khan-achieved-during-his-reign > > So perhaps real people are a little more complex than the simple moral > absolutism of good and evil allows. In fact, whenever someone is > called "evil" these days, it is almost always politically-motivated > hyperbole. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 13 20:35:36 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:35:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] i can relate In-Reply-To: References: <005701d6719d$ffd435f0$ff7ca1d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-13 13:13, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Repeating mistakes on essay tests was just horrible, even though?I > pointed that out endless times.? Not reading the question, not reading > their own answer..............? ?bill w My absolute favorite misspelling is when someone quotes "Ghandi" and cites ?The Autobiography of M. K. Gandhi?. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:39:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:39:58 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I just saw evidence that the cloth masks, called gaiters (like the one I wear and pull up) are not nearly good enough - may even be worse than nothing, though I cannot see how that could be. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:37 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?" * >> > > The IHME computer model (Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation), > which Trump frequently cited in the early days of the pandemic before its > predictions became too dark and too accurate for his taste, says 160,000 > more Americans will die of COVID-19 between now and December 1, but if 95% > of the people wore face masks when they went out of their houses there > would be 66,000 fewer deaths than that. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they > are one hell of a lot more likely to be right than you or I are after > studying the very complex science of epidemiology for no more than 20 > minutes. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 13 20:53:48 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:53:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3878e9c2-836b-2ebe-75ba-4002c3356ecc@pobox.com> On 2020-8-13 13:01, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?"? I'm not > opposed to trying them because?any health risk from wearing one seems > low,? ?That said, there is quite a substantial body of evidence that > surgical masks are not of much value in stopping small infectious > agents, let alone cloth ones and bandannas. It's also a big assumption > to believe people are wearing and handling them properly. SlateStarCodex, or someone like that, did some reading and concluded that a mask-wearer is significantly less likely to spread the virus, and probably slightly less likely to catch it. Good enough for me. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From avant at sollegro.com Thu Aug 13 20:57:24 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 13:57:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever Message-ID: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:11 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> whenever someone is called "evil" these days, it is almost always >> politically-motivated hyperbole. > If you believe the word "evil" can never be properly used in the > sentence, as it appears you do, does that mean you think the word > should be abolished from the English language as Orwell abolished > words in Newspeak in 1984? Newspeak dictionaries got smaller each > year, should the same thing happen for English dictionaries? No, I don't think the word "evil" should be abolished. It serves a distinct purpose. I don't mean it is an improper word so much as it should be understood in the relative context of who is using to describe whom or what. Other similarly relative terms are the words good and bad. All these words are evaluated relative to the self and any coalitions and ideologies one may adhere to. Ergo what is good for the wolves is often bad for the sheep. And what is good for you is about whether you prefer the wolves or the sheep. At the end of the day, it is all just a conflict of interests in a multidimensional space of values and any direction on any axis can be called evil if politically convenient for the speaker at the time. Stuart LaForge From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 20:58:26 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:58:26 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John- That's why I wear a mask (well, that and the fact I will probably ultimately be arrested if I walk into a store without one and refuse to leave). I'm also empathetic to them making people feel safe, and like I said, other than from a command and control perspective, there is little downside to wearing them. That said, I'm not asking about epidemiological models. I'm asking about hard science that shows masks works. I haven't seen much on the subject in the positive column for anything below N95. OTOH, you can take a look at these controlled studies around the effectiveness of surgical masks: http://12160.info/m/blogpost?id=2649739:BlogPost:2035264 On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:37 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?" * >> > > The IHME computer model (Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation), > which Trump frequently cited in the early days of the pandemic before its > predictions became too dark and too accurate for his taste, says 160,000 > more Americans will die of COVID-19 between now and December 1, but if 95% > of the people wore face masks when they went out of their houses there > would be 66,000 fewer deaths than that. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they > are one hell of a lot more likely to be right than you or I are after > studying the very complex science of epidemiology for no more than 20 > minutes. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 21:02:09 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:02:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > ### If the ROI > is very low, the doubling time from the initial technology seed would be > too long to make it viable. > > When you mention ROI, then you must have a profit model in mind for > what lunar settlers are doing. Building condos or what? > Presumably one or more of: * Exporting energy back to Earth * Exporting ores back to Earth * Constructing satellites and launching them into Earth orbit Any buyers, at least at first, will be on Earth. Therefore, any initial ROI can only be from services & supply back to Earth. Fuel stations to the rest of the solar system is simply an insignificant market. It'd be doing well to generate even a few million dollars per year, nowhere near the cost of setting up a lunar colony. Services to things already in orbit generates even less money, within most potential investors' time horizons. So neither of those ideas are worth serious consideration. > > ### Maybe you could mention the problems that don't have recognized > > solutions. > > > > The worst problem is why? Why are people needed on the moon at all? > > > > ### Why not? If an affluent person can afford the trip, many will. I would, > if the social situation was right. > For all but the richest, it'll be a one-way trip - without friends and family who prefer to stay on Earth (which is almost everyone). Would you go, if it meant you would never see any of your current friends and family ever again (aside from over video with light lag)? Or could you perhaps convince your family to move? If you could convince your family to move, would you need teachers & schools for your children? You presumably would work on the necessities of the colony - helping build more infrastructure, or helping establish that ROI - but what would your spouse do? Or would this only be for unmarried folks with weak to no family connections? And what exactly would you do, with regards to building more infrastructure or establishing that ROI, that could not be done better by a robot (perhaps autonomous, perhaps being teleoperated from Earth, whichever works better)? > ### Sure, using NASA-level inefficiency would make the whole endeavor > completely useless but I am talking about orders of magnitude improvements > in launch and build efficiency that should be possible with conceivable > technologies. > > I agree if you are talking about nanotechnology. If you are talking > nanotech, landing a coke can sized package is enough to industrialize > the moon. But this side of the singularity, I don't think it is in > the cards. > Nanotech isn't needed, actually. There has been a lot of work on macro-scale sets of tools that can self-replicate. One of the key ideas is that "sets of". Rather than having one monolithic nanoreplicator, you have vehicles to prospect & mine regolith for useful ores; refineries & smelters to turn the ores into various types of feedstock; printers, extruders, & tools to shape the feedstock into useful components; assembly robots to put them all together; solar panels to power the whole works; and central computers and communications to guide everything (with oversight - but not minute-by-minute direction - provided from Earth). You make sure that each element is a thing that can be fully constructed by the full set (this is most difficult for the vehicles, which have many components of their own, but doable). This means you're shipping up multiple tons for a starter version of this full set, so it's in the millions of dollars for transportation costs on top of obtaining that initial set of things, but millions of dollars for a credible plan to industrialize the Moon can be raised - especially with a good ROI. > > The next worse problem is radiation. There are solutions, but it is > > not obvious that people can live underground > > > ### People definitely can live underground, deep enough to take care of > cosmic radiation. > > Can you think of an example where people live underground for years? > I don't know of any. Even being inside and able to look out windows > causes serious mental problems for a lot of people if they do it too > long. > If it's big enough, windows that look out across the open space inside the colony itself might suffice. Of course this means you have a lot of "wasted" space inside the colony - except that all the open space will ideally get used for the kinds of impromptu street stuff that pops up in vibrant city downtowns all the time; the colony plans just have to leave enough room for it to happen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 21:03:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:03:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?As far as I can tell, you are talking about the one thing I labeled as an assumption. I have no idea who if anyone, the bikers follow, and it has no relationship to my thinking? BillW Ja. Many bikers, including me, wear a mask while riding. The reason is because the dry wind and sun are hard on lips. The mask helps. My notion is that people should always do the right thing. If they are in physical contact with others, they should wear a mask (it might help.) But a better strategy would be to do proper social distancing. People not wearing masks will stand father apart, which is better than a mask for protecting both. This is really simple, and doesn?t involve government at any level. So I when, when I am indoors (someone else?s doors.) When outdoors, I keep sufficient distance between myself and others. That works. Distance is better than a mask. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 21:04:21 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:04:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: This study may be of interest regarding cloth masks (it's not good news). Personally, I think properly fitted N95s WOULD make a big difference, although they're very uncomfortable in heat or when worn for long periods of time, and of course there is no easy way to get them outside of sources with questionable provenance. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577 On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:59 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I just saw evidence that the cloth masks, called gaiters (like the one I > wear and pull up) are not nearly good enough - may even be worse than > nothing, though I cannot see how that could be. bill w > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:37 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:04 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I think the larger, simpler question is "do masks even work?" * >>> >> >> The IHME computer model (Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation), >> which Trump frequently cited in the early days of the pandemic before its >> predictions became too dark and too accurate for his taste, says 160,000 >> more Americans will die of COVID-19 between now and December 1, but if 95% >> of the people wore face masks when they went out of their houses there >> would be 66,000 fewer deaths than that. Could they be wrong? Sure, but they >> are one hell of a lot more likely to be right than you or I are after >> studying the very complex science of epidemiology for no more than 20 >> minutes. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 13 21:13:02 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:13:02 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-13 13:39, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I just saw evidence that the cloth masks, called gaiters (like the one I > wear and pull up) are not nearly good enough - may even be worse than > nothing, though I cannot see how that could be.? ?bill w They break up big drops of spit into little drops, which (I guess) hang in air longer. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 21:18:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 14:18:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006001d671b7$432dd7c0$c9898740$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat ? >?As far as I can tell, you are talking about the one thing I labeled as an assumption. I have no idea who if anyone, the bikers follow, and it has no relationship to my thinking? BillW >?Ja. Many bikers, including me, wear a mask while riding. The reason is because the dry wind and sun are hard on lips. The mask helps?spike I could focus that a bit. Bikers and gun owners are two examples of groups who know their legal rights and they know law. Both know that governments at all levels do not have the power to arbitrarily demand the citizens do something. Governments in the US (states and local) have the authority to do some things conditionally. If you earn money, you must file a tax return and pay tax on it. If you are male and service age, you must register for the selective service, but that only applies to 18-25 year olds and only to men (no one has yet demanded a definition of the term ?male? (but if a case ever came up, anyone could claim to be not a male (case dismissed (how could the prosecutor prove otherwise? (Is the term male defined? How?)))))) https://www.sss.gov/register/who-needs-to-register/ States require licenses to drive a car, governments require licenses to sell liquor and plenty of other activities, but all these are conditional requirements. The state of California has a mask mandate which requires masks n public, but there is no actual fine or penalty if a prole fails to do it: https://www.abc10.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/face-covering-mandatory-california-fine-enforcement-updates-2/103-719b865a-1ebc-4e81-a797-957058026016 There is no legal structure at the national level to require and enforce masks. The exception is to declare martial law, which the federal government has not done. So? I say wear one if you think it will help. Keep a greater distance if you think that is a better strategy. Stay safe, keep others safe, do the right thing. It isn?t complicated. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 21:20:37 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:20:37 -0500 Subject: [ExI] weird tangent In-Reply-To: References: <62a93157-90da-3070-1813-0f2692c87dc8@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Chaucer also used a singular ?they?. SR Ballard > On Aug 13, 2020, at 2:07 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Shakespeare used 'they' and 'them' as singular. Tell 'em that. bill w > >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 1:11 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: >> On 12/08/2020 20:37, Spike wrote: >> > To save the useful meme, I modify it a second time and say ?To all, >> > their own.? >> >> But Spike, that doesn't work at all. It implies that everyone has the >> same 'own', as 'all' is collective. "To each their own" makes explicit >> that each person has their (his/her/its) own preference. >> >> But then, I've never seen any problem with 'their' or 'they' to refer to >> either multiple or unspecified single individuals. I use it all the >> time. If anyone wants to object, well, they can, but I regard it as >> their own problem, not mine. >> >> -- >> Ben Zaiboc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 21:51:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:51:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <006001d671b7$432dd7c0$c9898740$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> <006001d671b7$432dd7c0$c9898740$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: So where are the N95 masks we proles can buy? Limited to medical personnel is all I can find. spike, let's start making them and make a great big pile of money. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *?* > > >?As far as I can tell, you are talking about the one thing I labeled as > an assumption. I have no idea who if anyone, the bikers follow, and it > has no relationship to my thinking? BillW > > > > > > >?Ja. Many bikers, including me, wear a mask while riding. The reason is > because the dry wind and sun are hard on lips. The mask helps?spike > > > > > > I could focus that a bit. Bikers and gun owners are two examples of > groups who know their legal rights and they know law. Both know that > governments at all levels do not have the power to arbitrarily demand the > citizens do something. > > > > Governments in the US (states and local) have the authority to do some > things conditionally. If you earn money, you must file a tax return and > pay tax on it. If you are male and service age, you must register for the > selective service, but that only applies to 18-25 year olds and only to men > (no one has yet demanded a definition of the term ?male? (but if a case > ever came up, anyone could claim to be not a male (case dismissed (how > could the prosecutor prove otherwise? (Is the term male defined? > How?)))))) > > > > https://www.sss.gov/register/who-needs-to-register/ > > > > States require licenses to drive a car, governments require licenses to > sell liquor and plenty of other activities, but all these are conditional > requirements. > > > > The state of California has a mask mandate which requires masks n public, > but there is no actual fine or penalty if a prole fails to do it: > > > > > https://www.abc10.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/face-covering-mandatory-california-fine-enforcement-updates-2/103-719b865a-1ebc-4e81-a797-957058026016 > > > > There is no legal structure at the national level to require and enforce > masks. The exception is to declare martial law, which the federal > government has not done. > > > > So? I say wear one if you think it will help. Keep a greater distance if > you think that is a better strategy. Stay safe, keep others safe, do the > right thing. It isn?t complicated. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 21:51:31 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:51:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> I think shooting Jews during worship counts. 2018, 11 dead, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting 2018 ADL Report https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/anti-semitic-incidents-remained-at-near-historic-levels-in-2018-assaults 2019, 1 dead, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_of_Poway 2019, NYC Report https://forward.com/fast-forward/418047/swastika-graffitti-up-76-since-trump-election-says-nyc-police/ 2019, Multiple stabbing in Rabbis house during Channukah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsey_Hanukkah_stabbing 2019, 3 dead, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Jersey_City_shooting I don?t find the shooting of my extended social network to be figments of the Leftist imagination. I don?t find graffiti on my local holocaust museum to be a figment. I don?t take calls for the genocide of my ethnic group to be particularly reassuring. Jews make up about 1.8% of the US population. Even a large amount (percent) of anti-semitism against a small population is still a small number. Thankfully the nastiness is not a large amount. But it?s more than a footnote, regardless of your focus on the protest-riots. The Jewish community was terrified. That fear is currently overshadowed by Covid. SR Ballard > On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard wrote about US Nazis: > >> They absolutely are not a footnote. They are much more than a footnote at the moment. >> > > ### How many people have they killed this year in the US? How many city blocks do they hold under control? How many Jews have they beaten up recently? How many thousands of windows have they broken last month? > > US Nazis are almost entirely a figment of leftist imagination, carefully distilled out of scraps of nothing by the leftist mass media. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:05:52 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:05:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Adrian Tymes wrote: >> ### If the ROI .>> is very low, the doubling time from the initial technology seed would be > too long to make it viable. > >> When you mention ROI, then you must have a profit model in mind for >> what lunar settlers are doing. Building condos or what? > > Presumably one or more of: * Exporting energy back to Earth * Exporting ores back to Earth * Constructing satellites and launching them into Earth orbit 1. 2 and 4 are O'Neill's plan. Launch regolith with a mass driver, process it in space into power satellite components, build power satellites, move them to GEO, sell ~15 TW to earth I don't know of any element on the moon that is worth enough to ship to earth. Can you think of any? Keith From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 13 22:08:04 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:08:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> On 2020-8-13 14:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > My notion is that people should always do the right thing. Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 13 22:08:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:08:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> <006001d671b7$432dd7c0$c9898740$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00b201d671be$481021b0$d8306510$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? So where are the N95 masks we proles can buy? Limited to medical personnel is all I can find. spike, let's start making them and make a great big pile of money. bill w One of my scouts is doing an eagle service project of raising money to buy these things, which you can do if you buy them in quantity. They aren?t cheap, and if they are labeled N95, they aren?t necessarily. If made in China, they know that if they stamp them N95, they can get more money for them. So? they do. Another problem is that to make that standard legitimately, the masks are uncomfortable, so fewer people will wear them. But here?s another take. A lotta my own friends and associates are in their 70s and 80s, which often brings with it hearing loss. Older people seldom learn sign language, and it wouldn?t help much of they did, since most people don?t know how to sign. Wearing a mask causes them to need to stand closer, since they rely partly on lip reading, which most of us can do from the time we are still young. When dealing with older hearing-loss associates, a mask might be the wrong thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:19:05 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:19:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> Message-ID: Or the side! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-LxpfOG3Ts On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 6:16 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-13 14:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > My notion is that people should always do the right thing. > > Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:28:56 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:28:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: Adrian Tymes wrote: snip > And what exactly would you do, with regards to building more infrastructure or establishing that ROI, that could not be done better by a robot (perhaps autonomous, perhaps being teleoperated from Earth, whichever works better)? It's a problem. Humans would have to be a lot better than robots to justify the much higher cost of having them on the moon. snip > Nanotech isn't needed, actually. There has been a lot of work on macro-scale sets of tools that can self-replicate. Do you have some URLs for this? It's a topic I have followed for ages and can't think of any work in this direction except for RepRap (or however it is spelled) The reason nanotech is expected to work is that it works in a small universe of parts, atoms. > One of the key ideas is that "sets of". Rather than having one monolithic nanoreplicator, you have vehicles to prospect & mine regolith for useful ores; refineries & smelters to turn the ores into various types of feedstock; printers, extruders, & tools to shape the feedstock into useful components; assembly robots to put them all together; solar panels to power the whole works; and central computers and communications to guide everything (with oversight - but not minute-by-minute direction - provided from Earth). You make sure that each element is a thing that can be fully constructed by the full set (this is most difficult for the vehicles, which have many components of their own, but doable). This means you're shipping up multiple tons for a starter version of this full set, so it's in the millions of dollars for transportation costs on top of obtaining that initial set of things, but millions of dollars for a credible plan to industrialize the Moon can be raised - especially with a good ROI. I don't think anyone has generated a list of what is needed for a lunar industrial site. If you know of one, please let me know. I have walked all over a square mile of an industrial plant that was highly integrated. In a corner of the plant, I found a machine that wound the springs that held the brushes down on huge traction motors. There was still a huge flow of parts from outside into the final product. snip Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:54:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:54:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> Message-ID: Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! Oh NO! Been cracking them in the middle all these years. Which end? bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:17 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-13 14:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > My notion is that people should always do the right thing. > > Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:55:03 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:55:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rafal-- 1) They are both small groups. 2) Right wing love wolves commit more mass killings in America for sure, as SR noted. Many of the overtly right-wing shooters, especially the anti-semitic ones, tend to be massive pussies though (John Earnest, Stephan Balliet, Philip Manshaus) though some are able to rack up higher scores (Breivik, Tarrant, Robert Bowers). Anyway don't be retarded. Antifa is not a bigger problem than the alt-right. Both are buzzwords for small but vocal groups of extremists. The real problem is neither of them, rather, it is how goddamn dumb most individuals and most governments are. Whether we have anarchy or totalitarianism is no matter. The issue is ignorance and stupidity and it will be an issue no matter what until we fix it, form of governance be damned. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 22:55:47 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:55:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Btw yes I know Manshaus and Balliet are not American, but they were such massive failures I felt the need to list them On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 6:55 PM Will Steinberg wrote: > Rafal-- > > 1) They are both small groups. > > 2) Right wing love wolves commit more mass killings in America for sure, > as SR noted. Many of the overtly right-wing shooters, especially the > anti-semitic ones, tend to be massive pussies though (John Earnest, Stephan > Balliet, Philip Manshaus) though some are able to rack up higher scores > (Breivik, Tarrant, Robert Bowers). > > Anyway don't be retarded. Antifa is not a bigger problem than the > alt-right. Both are buzzwords for small but vocal groups of extremists. > The real problem is neither of them, rather, it is how goddamn dumb most > individuals and most governments are. Whether we have anarchy or > totalitarianism is no matter. The issue is ignorance and stupidity and it > will be an issue no matter what until we fix it, form of governance be > damned. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Aug 13 22:59:58 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:59:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace Message-ID: <20200813155958.Horde.fxcuo3LaBvVfib2rAcxzka-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Adrian Tymes: >> ### If the ROI >> is very low, the doubling time from the initial technology seed would be >> too long to make it viable. >> >> When you mention ROI, then you must have a profit model in mind for >> what lunar settlers are doing. Building condos or what? >> > > Presumably one or more of: > * Exporting energy back to Earth > * Exporting ores back to Earth > * Constructing satellites and launching them into Earth orbit Perhaps the simplest profit model for the moon might be as an advertising space. How much would a company pay to have it's corporate logo emblazoned across the moon at night? With a gigantic network of servo controlled reflectors in various colors, it would even be possible to make a Times Square-style scrolling marquis on the surface of the moon. Profits from this could be reinvested to build more of the infrastructure to make the moon colonizable. > Any buyers, at least at first, will be on Earth. Therefore, any initial > ROI can only be from services & supply back to Earth. The dark side of the moon offers a commodity impossible to find on earth or most of the nearby solar system: complete radio-silence from all terrestrial sources. This has immense scientific and strategic value. Commercial applications are possible as well. > Fuel stations to the rest of the solar system is simply an insignificant > market. It'd be doing well to generate even a few million dollars per > year, nowhere near the cost of setting up a lunar colony. Services to > things already in orbit generates even less money, within most potential > investors' time horizons. So neither of those ideas are worth serious > consideration. The economic value of the moon as a fueling station would be expected to increase over time as a network effect of more colonies being established throughout the solar system. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:01:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:01:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jews are heavily involved in the money/stock markets. Highest income of any religious group. Simply, they are good at money. I think it's all about envy. They are actually disparaged because of their money ability - 'money-grasping Jew' - as if the people who say such things don't care a bit about money. Jealousy; that's all it takes. bill w On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think shooting Jews during worship counts. > > 2018, 11 dead, > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting > > 2018 ADL Report > > > https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/anti-semitic-incidents-remained-at-near-historic-levels-in-2018-assaults > > 2019, 1 dead, > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_of_Poway > > 2019, NYC Report > > > https://forward.com/fast-forward/418047/swastika-graffitti-up-76-since-trump-election-says-nyc-police/ > > 2019, Multiple stabbing in Rabbis house during Channukah > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsey_Hanukkah_stabbing > > 2019, 3 dead, > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Jersey_City_shooting > > I don?t find the shooting of my extended social network to be figments of > the Leftist imagination. > > I don?t find graffiti on my local holocaust museum to be a figment. > > I don?t take calls for the genocide of my ethnic group to be particularly > reassuring. > > Jews make up about 1.8% of the US population. Even a large amount > (percent) of anti-semitism against a small population is still a small > number. > > Thankfully the nastiness is not a large amount. But it?s more than a > footnote, regardless of your focus on the protest-riots. > > The Jewish community was terrified. That fear is currently overshadowed by > Covid. > > SR Ballard > > On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard wrote > about US Nazis: > > They absolutely are not a footnote. They are much more than a footnote at >> the moment. >> >> > ### How many people have they killed this year in the US? How many city > blocks do they hold under control? How many Jews have they beaten up > recently? How many thousands of windows have they broken last month? > > US Nazis are almost entirely a figment of leftist imagination, carefully > distilled out of scraps of nothing by the leftist mass media. > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:15:28 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:15:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d671b5$3102ba90$93082fb0$@rainier66.com> <59b67bd9-4be3-4e55-9905-74e61df82e4d@pobox.com> Message-ID: Cracking in the middle is rated highly according to the interwebz. On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 6:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! Oh NO! Been cracking them in > the middle all these years. Which end? bill w > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:17 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020-8-13 14:03, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> > My notion is that people should always do the right thing. >> >> Eggs must be cracked at the correct end! >> >> -- >> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:16:50 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:16:50 -0400 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <20200813155958.Horde.fxcuo3LaBvVfib2rAcxzka-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813155958.Horde.fxcuo3LaBvVfib2rAcxzka-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:14 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Perhaps the simplest profit model for the moon might be as an > advertising space. How much would a company pay to have it's corporate > logo emblazoned across the moon at night? With a gigantic network of > servo controlled reflectors in various colors, it would even be > possible to make a Times Square-style scrolling marquis on the surface > of the moon. Profits from this could be reinvested to build more of > the infrastructure to make the moon colonizable. > > NO, PLEASE NO! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:22:41 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:22:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] cortisol was Re: prayer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 1:10 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > But from my short exposure, I can see how it could be addictive. > > Best of luck Mike > > Keith > > PS. You might try nicotinamide riboside as something with similar but > milder effects. Email me for details. > _ > I was talking about endogenous cortisol. It's not that I want the effects, but the habits that produce it naturally tend to have cumulative negative consequences. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:29:54 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 19:29:54 -0400 Subject: [ExI] diamonds falling In-Reply-To: References: <8E1AF4FF-5B76-4D59-BBFC-98794E8F33D2@gmail.com> <2D6D1236-0AB4-4D13-9721-899C353573A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: As an overall group, Ashkenazi Jews are also on the right tail of the IQ curve. I agree it's jealousy and hatred of others' success. On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 7:23 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Jews are heavily involved in the money/stock markets. Highest income of > any religious group. Simply, they are good at money. I think it's all > about envy. They are actually disparaged because of their money ability - > 'money-grasping Jew' - as if the people who say such things don't care a > bit about money. Jealousy; that's all it takes. bill w > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think shooting Jews during worship counts. >> >> 2018, 11 dead, >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting >> >> 2018 ADL Report >> >> >> https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases/anti-semitic-incidents-remained-at-near-historic-levels-in-2018-assaults >> >> 2019, 1 dead, >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_of_Poway >> >> 2019, NYC Report >> >> >> https://forward.com/fast-forward/418047/swastika-graffitti-up-76-since-trump-election-says-nyc-police/ >> >> 2019, Multiple stabbing in Rabbis house during Channukah >> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsey_Hanukkah_stabbing >> >> 2019, 3 dead, >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Jersey_City_shooting >> >> I don?t find the shooting of my extended social network to be figments of >> the Leftist imagination. >> >> I don?t find graffiti on my local holocaust museum to be a figment. >> >> I don?t take calls for the genocide of my ethnic group to be particularly >> reassuring. >> >> Jews make up about 1.8% of the US population. Even a large amount >> (percent) of anti-semitism against a small population is still a small >> number. >> >> Thankfully the nastiness is not a large amount. But it?s more than a >> footnote, regardless of your focus on the protest-riots. >> >> The Jewish community was terrified. That fear is currently overshadowed >> by Covid. >> >> SR Ballard >> >> On Aug 12, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 10:24 AM SR Ballard wrote >> about US Nazis: >> >> They absolutely are not a footnote. They are much more than a footnote at >>> the moment. >>> >>> >> ### How many people have they killed this year in the US? How many city >> blocks do they hold under control? How many Jews have they beaten up >> recently? How many thousands of windows have they broken last month? >> >> US Nazis are almost entirely a figment of leftist imagination, carefully >> distilled out of scraps of nothing by the leftist mass media. >> >> Rafal >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 13 23:40:54 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 16:40:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: <20200813155958.Horde.fxcuo3LaBvVfib2rAcxzka-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813155958.Horde.fxcuo3LaBvVfib2rAcxzka-@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Perhaps the simplest profit model for the moon might be as an > advertising space. While it is a simple model, it is also a nonstarter. > How much would a company pay to have it's corporate > logo emblazoned across the moon at night? Not nearly enough to make it happen. Not to mention, if any corporation did do it, that corporation would soon cease to exist due to public backlash - even if it were based in Russia or China and tried to buddy up with those governments. Which means the people setting up the ad would have a problem getting paid (assuming they lived on the Moon for the rest of their lives to avoid persecution). The dark side of the moon offers a commodity impossible to find on > earth or most of the nearby solar system: complete radio-silence from > all terrestrial sources. This has immense scientific and strategic > value. Commercial applications are possible as well. > What commercial applications do you see? > > Fuel stations to the rest of the solar system is simply an insignificant > > market. It'd be doing well to generate even a few million dollars per > > year, nowhere near the cost of setting up a lunar colony. Services to > > things already in orbit generates even less money, within most potential > > investors' time horizons. So neither of those ideas are worth serious > > consideration. > > The economic value of the moon as a fueling station would be expected > to increase over time as a network effect of more colonies being > established throughout the solar system. > Notice that I said "within most potential investors' time horizons". Investors are quite particular about being paid back within a certain number of years. If you look like you'll take much longer than that, they won't invest. This is why most financial schemes beyond the personal scale that take more than a decade to pay off simply don't happen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 00:07:28 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 17:07:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:35 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Nanotech isn't needed, actually. There has been a lot of work on > macro-scale sets of tools that can self-replicate. > > Do you have some URLs for this? It's a topic I have followed for ages > and can't think of any work in this direction except for RepRap (or > however it is spelled) > Yeah, "RepRap". The work's been distributed among a number of investigations, little of it even as formalized as RepRap. It might be a useful project for someone to come up with a full design for a self-replicable set of industrial tools. As I recall, RepRap was able to self-replicate except for the electronics - and from what I saw, RepRap could have been redesigned with larger, printable electronics to overcome this too; the people involved apparently just didn't think of it. I don't think anyone has generated a list of what is needed for a > lunar industrial site. If you know of one, please let me know. > https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/isal_a_026 seems to be a start on this. I found it with a quick Web search on "self replicating tools". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 01:04:57 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:04:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Moon's Cold Embrace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 3:09 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > 1. 2 and 4 are O'Neill's plan. > It was answered that long ago, and yet, so many people speak as if no one has ever considered the question. > I don't know of any element on the moon that is worth enough to ship > to earth. Can you think of any? > Answering that starts with what assumptions you make about the cost. Some people will assume or state that each 1 kg to be mined requires a completely new mission to be planned, R&Ded from scratch (ignoring lessons learned from other missions), and launched from Earth with much fanfare, regulatory scrutiny (again, ignoring lessons learned from other missions), and so on. This obviously makes any such mining unprofitable. Others barely count the cost of the electricity (at assumed prices from solar panels on the Moon) to power a mass driver, ignoring the cost of setting up a mass driver, finding the ores and moving them over the lunar surface to the mass driver, and so on. It has been suggested that there are commercially interesting quantities of gold and platinum on the Moon. I suspect more prospecting will be needed to determine if that is true. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 11:22:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:22:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:31 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Personally, I think properly fitted N95s WOULD make a big difference, > although they're very uncomfortable in heat or when worn for long periods > of time, and of course there is no easy way to get them * They cost just a few cents to make so the fact that N 95 masks are *STILL* hard to get in mid August even for healthcare workers when this pandemic started in December of last year is graphic evidence of total jaw-dropping incompetence in the fight against COVID-19. And yesterday the thing on Trump's mind was not making more masks or the greatest number of virus deaths since May 27, instead he was thinking about the virtues of showerheads that waste lots of water, destroying the post office (which is mentioned in the constitution that he swore to defend), and doing everything in his power to stop as many Americams as he can from voting on November 3. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 11:33:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 04:33:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001c01d6722e$bb77a1d0$3266e570$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? the thing on Trump's mind ?John K Clark John your posts are best dealt with by doing a word search. If the name of a politician is in it, that entire post has little to do with disease or science, it is campaign literature. Disregard all. Everything isn?t politics. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 11:56:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:56:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:10 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > No, I don't think the word "evil" should be abolished. It serves > a distinct purpose. I don't mean it is an improper word so much as it > should be understood in the relative context of who is using to describe > whom or what.* That's true for all words not just "evil". As for your claim that using "evil" to describe Donald Trump is "*almost always politically-motivated hyperbole*", well that may or may not be true, but I don't care because the motivation for uttering a statement does not change its truth or falsehood, and "Donald Trump is evil" remains correct; saying otherwise would be nearly as silly as claiming that "ignoramus" is also an improper word to describe that creature. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 12:01:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 05:01:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my apologies mister whidden! Message-ID: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> Mr. Whidden was a friend from where I grew up. He told me stories of his childhood and youth out on Cape Canaveral a short distance from the site where John Glenn launched into orbit much later. This was the 1920s in that remote village, where his father was a beekeeper and raised hogs. One of their sows got out of the pen. Tracks led toward the beach. When they found her, she had discovered how to charge into the surf and catch fish (good chance BillW's cod book never mentioned that.) Mr. Whidden had this story about the fishing sow. Naturally the Whiddens and local hog farmers hoped she could teach the piglets how to do that, and they could be rich, or at least well-fed, with nearly free meat production. I always had my doubts about that story, for I couldn't see how a hog could possibly be a swimmer with those hoofs, but everything else Mr. Whidden told me checked out perfectly, with actual historical records about the development of the Cape Canaveral launch facility. I found references to back up everything he said. Mr. Whidden has been gone for nearly 30 years, but that fishing sow story has bothered me for all this time. The rest of the story sounded even more outlandish. Whelp. My humble apologies Mr. Whidden: https://twitter.com/capeandcowell/status/1293949729345339392 Now the rest of the story doesn't seem as implausible. Details available on request. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Fri Aug 14 12:01:59 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:01:59 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Moderation Political Reminder Message-ID: The Exi List is not the place for arguing about the current divisive USA politics. Politicising for or against particular parties or politicians won't change anyone's opinions and only gets people annoyed. If you have an irresistible urge to argue about current politics then Twitter is an excellent media where you can give and receive as much political abuse as you could possibly wish for. List members should consider carefully before trolling the Exi List with their particular preferences for USA politics. PAY ATTENTION! There will be consequences. ExiMod Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 12:06:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:06:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <001c01d6722e$bb77a1d0$3266e570$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <001c01d6722e$bb77a1d0$3266e570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:35 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> John your posts are best dealt with by doing a word search. If the > name of a politician is in it, that entire post has little to do with > disease or science, it is campaign literature. Disregard all.* > Tell me Spike, do you ever feel at least a small twinge of regret when you defend that politician? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 12:12:51 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:12:51 +0100 Subject: [ExI] my apologies mister whidden! In-Reply-To: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Aug 2020 at 13:05, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Mr. Whidden was a friend from where I grew up. He told me stories of his childhood and youth out on Cape Canaveral a short distance from the site where John Glenn launched into orbit much later. This was the 1920s in that remote village, where his father was a beekeeper and raised hogs. > > One of their sows got out of the pen. Tracks led toward the beach. When they found her, she had discovered how to charge into the surf and catch fish (good chance BillW?s cod book never mentioned that.) > Mr. Whidden had this story about the fishing sow. Naturally the Whiddens and local hog farmers hoped she could teach the piglets how to do that, and they could be rich, or at least well-fed, with nearly free meat production. > > I always had my doubts about that story, for I couldn?t see how a hog could possibly be a swimmer with those hoofs, but everything else Mr. Whidden told me checked out perfectly, with actual historical records about the development of the Cape Canaveral launch facility. I found references to back up everything he said. Mr. Whidden has been gone for nearly 30 years, but that fishing sow story has bothered me for all this time. The rest of the story sounded even more outlandish. > > Whelp. My humble apologies Mr. Whidden: > > https://twitter.com/capeandcowell/status/1293949729345339392 > > Now the rest of the story doesn?t seem as implausible. Details available on request. > > spike > _______________________________________________ They've been on television. And they have their own website. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 13:46:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:46:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi List Moderation Political Reminder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have had my say and maybe John has had his. No more from me. bill w On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:11 AM ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Exi List is not the place for arguing about the current divisive USA > politics. Politicising for or against particular parties or politicians > won't change anyone's opinions and only gets people annoyed. > If you have an irresistible urge to argue about current politics then > Twitter is an excellent media where you can give and receive as much > political abuse as you could possibly wish for. > List members should consider carefully before trolling the Exi List with > their particular preferences for USA politics. > > PAY ATTENTION! There will be consequences. > > ExiMod > > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 13:47:15 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:47:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <001c01d6722e$bb77a1d0$3266e570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You can get KN95 masks pretty easily, that's what I have been using. The standards are almost identical to N95 masks, better in some ways but worse in some others (less breathable I believe) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 13:49:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 08:49:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] my apologies mister whidden! In-Reply-To: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> References: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I had a black Labrador and she stood in the little creek every day for a long time. Finally, she caught a fish! She brought it to me, I cooked it, and she ate it. bill w On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Mr. Whidden was a friend from where I grew up. He told me stories of his > childhood and youth out on Cape Canaveral a short distance from the site > where John Glenn launched into orbit much later. This was the 1920s in > that remote village, where his father was a beekeeper and raised hogs. > > > > One of their sows got out of the pen. Tracks led toward the beach. When > they found her, she had discovered how to charge into the surf and catch > fish (good chance BillW?s cod book never mentioned that.) > > > > Mr. Whidden had this story about the fishing sow. Naturally the Whiddens > and local hog farmers hoped she could teach the piglets how to do that, and > they could be rich, or at least well-fed, with nearly free meat production. > > > > I always had my doubts about that story, for I couldn?t see how a hog > could possibly be a swimmer with those hoofs, but everything else Mr. > Whidden told me checked out perfectly, with actual historical records about > the development of the Cape Canaveral launch facility. I found references > to back up everything he said. Mr. Whidden has been gone for nearly 30 > years, but that fishing sow story has bothered me for all this time. The > rest of the story sounded even more outlandish. > > > > Whelp. My humble apologies Mr. Whidden: > > > > https://twitter.com/capeandcowell/status/1293949729345339392 > > > > Now the rest of the story doesn?t seem as implausible. Details available > on request. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 14:05:06 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:05:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?and "Donald Trump is evil" ? John K Clark Pointless campaign literature. Disregard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 14:06:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:06:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <001c01d6722e$bb77a1d0$3266e570$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005a01d67244$12fc1020$38f43060$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? politician? ? John K Clark Campaign literature. Disregard. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 14:10:48 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:10:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I thought we were going to get away from straight up politically motivated posts on this list? There is an extreme amount of inflammatory invective still being hurled around here with some trolling added in. I'm perfectly happy to turn it into a political free for all, but since we've agreed that this list isn't the place, shouldn't the rule be respected? On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:07 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > > *>?*and "Donald Trump is evil" ? John K Clark > > > > > > Pointless campaign literature. Disregard. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 14:15:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:15:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> Pointless campaign literature. Disregard.* > With all respect I would humbly suggest that people may not need your help to figure out what to disregard and what not to. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 14:26:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 07:26:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my apologies mister whidden! In-Reply-To: References: <002901d67232$9e452070$dacf6150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d67246$f01df2a0$d059d7e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > Whelp. My humble apologies Mr. Whidden: > > https://twitter.com/capeandcowell/status/1293949729345339392 > > Now the rest of the story doesn?t seem as implausible. Details available on request. > > spike > _______________________________________________ They've been on television. And they have their own website. https://www.bahamas.com/official-home-swimming-pigs BillK _______________________________________________ Shows to go ya: every outlandish sounding story is not necessarily false. I found where I think Mr. Whidden grew up. If you go into Google maps, hit Cape Canaveral Florida, go to satellite view (how satisfying is that name) then go up to the northern-most launch pad, 39B. Find road 402 to the north and a place called Happy Hammock appears if you zoom in (aint it crazy cool to be able to do this from your own home?) If you look almost due west of pad 39B, about 500 meters south of 402, about halfway between the airstrip and the pad, that looks like the remains of a small town that would fit Mr. Whidden's description of the place where he grew up. He said it was an easy walk over to the beach, that there were fishing holes everywhere with fresh water, that the Indian River was nearby, which is brackish water, which has its own fishing available (some types of fish thrive in brackish water.) If so, the first experimental rocket launches happened from a site east of pad 39B, shortly after the war. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 14:52:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:52:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, you are right. I have had my say, as my post said, and no more Trump from me. I hope you will follow that. After all, what more could be said? Nothing anyone could add would add anything to what we already know. bill w On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 9:27 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> *> Pointless campaign literature. Disregard.* >> > > With all respect I would humbly suggest that people may not need your > help to figure out what to disregard and what not to. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 15:29:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:29:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:21 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *There is an extreme amount of inflammatory invective still being hurled > around here with some trolling added in. * I don't resent it when somebody says there are times when I may have written inflammatory invective, perhaps I have, but I do resent it when somebody calls me a troll and claims I don't really believe what I say; after being on this list for over a quarter of a century I would have expected more. But then again contrary to what some seem to believe nobody ever died from being offended. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 15:43:48 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:43:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: John, in the interest of not offending (sincerely), I have no doubt that you believe what you're writing. You can believe what you are writing and still troll someone IMO, but I will recant my accusations of trolling. I'm personally not bothered by heated political discussions here (although at the end of the day, I don't believe they accomplish anything), but it appears the majority are, and I just think if everyone has been asked to follow a new rule, we should acquiesce if we're going to stay on the list. On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 11:30 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:21 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *There is an extreme amount of inflammatory invective still being >> hurled around here with some trolling added in. * > > > I don't resent it when somebody says there are times when I may have > written inflammatory invective, perhaps I have, but I do resent it when > somebody calls me a troll and claims I don't really believe what I say; > after being on this list for over a quarter of a century I would have > expected more. But then again contrary to what some seem to believe nobody > ever died from being offended. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 15:56:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:56:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Worst ever In-Reply-To: References: <20200813135724.Horde.OVfDQ-iKYSHauLSBHFjJa8V@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <004e01d67243$ea2050d0$be60f270$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 11:46 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *I will recant my accusations of trolling.* Thank you. The matter is forgotten. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Aug 14 16:06:27 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:06:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <848ed993-14b6-cded-6340-c175fe153500@pobox.com> On 2020-8-14 04:22, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > destroying the post office (which is mentioned in the constitution that > he swore to defend), The Constitution authorizes "post offices and post roads" but does not require them. Nor does it authorize the postal monopoly that made this shenanigan possible. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 16:48:24 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 09:48:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:25 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 5:31 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Personally, I think properly fitted N95s WOULD make a big difference, >> although they're very uncomfortable in heat or when worn for long periods >> of time, and of course there is no easy way to get them * > > > They cost just a few cents to make > As a mask maker*: N95 masks cost more than a few cents to make, especially when you include costs of compliance to get and keep N95 certification. You may be thinking of "surgical" non-N95 masks. * Technically our masks aren't N95 yet, but that's because we're just now entering production (literally: we're expecting production to formally begin today, after months of setup), and NIOSH won't begin the certification process until we can send them production samples. Our test data indicates they probably will meet the N95 standard if we submit them for certification, though. Partly this is because we've been developing a next-generation mask since March. Most of the mask is reusable plastic (a basic isopropyl alcohol wipe daily to disinfect), with disposable filters. $20 for 1 mask + 10 filters; $10 for 10 filters - comes to $2/day for a new mask, $1/day to resupply. Our masks are easy to fit: run a blow dryer on the edge for a few minutes to soften (but not long enough that the plastic burns to touch), mold the edge to your face, let cool, and there you go. > so the fact that N 95 masks are *STILL* hard to get in mid August > ***WAVES HANDS FRANTICALLY*** Hey! Right here! You want masks, I can hook you up. Bulk orders preferred. Modulo the caveat above (not yet officially N95), we're trying to sell our initial production batches ASAP, to finance rapid scale-up. We're expecting 1,000 around mid-September and another 10,000 around the end of September. If you can't wait, we have pre-production 3D printed versions too - smaller quantities, but customizable if desired (e.g., we've had requests for various logos embossed on the mask). Our intent is to reach at least 100,000 per month. If we can sell more - flood the market until the worldwide or at least US demand is finally sated, for some version of "sated" - we may just do it. We've got, or know where we can find, sources for the various materials to get to high volume. I apologize for the ad, but I believe it is extremely on-topic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 17:07:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:07:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >?As a mask maker*: N95 masks cost more than a few cents to make, especially when you include costs of compliance to get and keep N95 certification. You may be thinking of "surgical" non-N95 masks. ? >?I apologize for the ad, but I believe it is extremely on-topic. Not only are these kinds of ads allowed, they are? noichahed. (ExIMod makes the final call on this rather than me of course (so the above comment is speculative.)) We have had people selling their books here before I don?t recall their being scolded or anyone objecting. Adrian, as a fellow rocket scientist, I am very proud of you for using your manufacturing facilities to step up to an immediate need. Well done, me lad! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 17:20:13 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 10:20:13 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Adrian, as a fellow rocket scientist, I am very proud of you for using > your manufacturing facilities to step up to an immediate need. > > > > Well done, me lad! > Thanks. And yeah - it turns out that some of the manufacturing tech we'd been coming up with, applies to mask manufacture too. And if we can sell enough masks, that will generate the funding we need to finish CubeCab's development. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 17:26:25 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 13:26:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Best of luck, and thanks for sharing some details! On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 1:21 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Adrian, as a fellow rocket scientist, I am very proud of you for using >> your manufacturing facilities to step up to an immediate need. >> >> >> >> Well done, me lad! >> > > Thanks. And yeah - it turns out that some of the manufacturing tech we'd > been coming up with, applies to mask manufacture too. > > And if we can sell enough masks, that will generate the funding we need to > finish CubeCab's development. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 17:29:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 12:29:15 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I will buy some, Adrian, for my family. What is the minimum order, please? bill w On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 12:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Adrian, as a fellow rocket scientist, I am very proud of you for using >> your manufacturing facilities to step up to an immediate need. >> >> >> >> Well done, me lad! >> > > Thanks. And yeah - it turns out that some of the manufacturing tech we'd > been coming up with, applies to mask manufacture too. > > And if we can sell enough masks, that will generate the funding we need to > finish CubeCab's development. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 18:00:53 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 11:00:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Who has a vote that counts? In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67182$ec93ba80$c5bb2f80$@rainier66.com> <005f01d671a0$a423bd40$ec6b37c0$@rainier66.com> <000601d671a4$39b7f260$ad27d720$@rainier66.com> <005f01d6725d$72310af0$569320d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: One. Bulk orders preferred but not required. I'll follow up offlist. Thank you! On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:34 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I will buy some, Adrian, for my family. What is the minimum order, > please? bill w > > On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 12:22 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 10:09 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Adrian, as a fellow rocket scientist, I am very proud of you for using >>> your manufacturing facilities to step up to an immediate need. >>> >>> >>> >>> Well done, me lad! >>> >> >> Thanks. And yeah - it turns out that some of the manufacturing tech we'd >> been coming up with, applies to mask manufacture too. >> >> And if we can sell enough masks, that will generate the funding we need >> to finish CubeCab's development. >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 14 22:08:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 15:08:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? Message-ID: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ Sweden did less than other countries on Covid. They did shut down schools, but didn't do all that much else. The Swedish approach was not advertised as looking to achieve herd immunity, but that might be what is happening here. As Reason magazine points out, if they accidentally blundered into achieving even partial herd immunity, it is good news for the species: https://reason.com/2020/08/14/did-sweden-accidentally-blunder-into-covid-19- herd-immunity/?utm_medium=email spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 22:47:54 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:47:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Accidentally???? That is what I've been saying all along. And what I was trying to say to Clark and others in this group, way back when. All you do by "flattening the curve" is extend the time before you achieve herd immunity. You don't decrease the total number of people that will get sick, you just decrease the number of people that will be sick at any one time. It makes it easier on the hospitals, and fewer people die because the hospitals can handle fewer sick people at one time. But it stretches out the pain much longer, before we achieve herd immunity. I'm sure many people making decisions in Sweden understood all this very clearly and intentionally. Clark, what was it you were saying about how bad off Sweden is because it was doing so little? (yes, I expect you to eat your words ;) Brent On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 4:09 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Source: > > > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ > > > > Sweden did less than other countries on Covid. They did shut down > schools, but didn?t do all that much else. > > > > The Swedish approach was not advertised as looking to achieve herd > immunity, but that might be what is happening here. > > > > As Reason magazine points out, if they accidentally blundered into > achieving even partial herd immunity, it is good news for the species: > > > > > https://reason.com/2020/08/14/did-sweden-accidentally-blunder-into-covid-19-herd-immunity/?utm_medium=email > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 28941 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 23:48:45 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 16:48:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] my apologies mister whidden! Message-ID: wrote: snip > Shows to go ya: every outlandish sounding story is not necessarily false. A few years ago we had an infestation of ants. It ended when they discovered they could get into the freezer. I took a picture of a couple of cups of ants that had frozen intending to put up on the net. Never did because a little searching found this ant behavior to be relatively common. They did it again the next year. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 00:18:25 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:18:25 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: Brent Allsop wrote: snip > You don't decrease the total number of people that will get sick, you just decrease the number of people that will be sick at any one time. It makes it easier on the hospitals, and fewer people die because the hospitals can handle fewer sick people at one time. But it stretches out the pain much longer, before we achieve herd immunity. That's true if we never get a vaccine. And if humans can achieve herd immunity.to this one at all. > I'm sure many people making decisions in Sweden understood all this very clearly and intentionally. They might have. If they did, they figured out that most of the people who would die were older ones who may be important to family members bur are more of a drag on the economy than anything else. Had COVID been known to not bother the old and kill the young and productive, I expect they would have made a different decision. > Clark, what was it you were saying about how bad off Sweden is because it was doing so little? That's not exactly true. There was not a lot of government direction, but the behavior of the people particularly the older ones changed a lot. > (yes, I expect you to eat your words ;) I would wait a while on this, maybe even a year or longer. Historically the 1918 flu came around twice and the second round was worse than the first. It may take years to sort out what strategy works best. They are still doing that for the 1918 flu. You might also consider that it would not take a lot of mutation for the current COVID to match the 70% death rate of MERS. Even with the relatively low death rate, it would not surprise me that much for this year to be the peak human population. Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 00:22:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 20:22:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It's unlikely Sweden has achieved herd immunity, The most recent studies indicate only 20% of people in Stockholm have been exposed to the virus, that's about the same number as those in New York and London, and most think you need at least 70% to achieve herd immunity. Sweden has not had significantly less economic pain than other countries, it's GDP declined by 8.6% and yes that's less than the average for the European Union as a whole which declined by 11.9% but it wasn't as good as some other European countries which did impose strict lockdowns and had far fewer deaths, the Czech Republic's GDP declined by 8.4% and Lithuania by only 5.1%. And Sweden suffered more non-economic biological pain from the virus than most, they had 8,200 cases of COVID-19 per million people, Norway had 1,780, Denmark had 2,560, the UK had 4,600, and the US had 15,400. As for deaths per 100,000 people, Sweden had 57, Norway had 5, Denmark had 11, the UK had 70, and the US had 50. But of course this pandemic is far from over so it will be sometime before we know what the final butcher's bill is. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 00:22:37 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 17:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Please don't use this subject line was Re: Who has a vote that counts? Message-ID: If you want to get the political discussion suppressed, don't use a subject line like this. Keith From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Aug 15 04:59:37 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 00:59:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe the death counts are not correct after all. Did anyone else see this? Interesting methodology for estimating the true death count. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/12/us/covid-deaths-us.html ?Across the United States, at least 200,000 more people have died than usual since March, according to a New York Times analysis of estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is about 60,000 higher than the number of deaths that have been directly linked to the coronavirus. As the pandemic has moved south and west from its epicenter in New York City, so have the unusual patterns in deaths from all causes. That suggests that the official death counts may be substantially underestimating the overall effects of the virus, as people die from the virus as well as by other causes linked to the pandemic.? >> On Aug 13, 2020, at 2:03 PM, Darin Sunley via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > If the case counts are badly underestimated, but the death counts are approximately correct, then the case fatality rate, which is what has scared the entire public health system half to death, and which has been used to justify the near-complete upheaval of our entire society, is badly /over/estimated. > > See, this is why people aren't trusting "experts" like they used to. > >>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 11:17 AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: >> I recognize you all are talking about the death count. But I want to bring to your attention an equally slippery number which is the case count. Local hospital COOs I?ve heard from are convinced the positive case counts in the US at least are a vast underestimate due to a lack of available/accessible testing and many people who got sick opting not to get tested. Spike was a case in point for example if I recall correctly. >> >> -Henry >> >>>> On Aug 13, 2020, at 11:11 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ? >>> What I would like to see: data on people who have survived the virus. How has it affected their health weeks and months later. I see a report that myocarditis can follow this infection. Maybe if more people knew things like that they would quit comparing it to the flu. bill w >>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:24 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >>>> ubject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% >>>> >>>> >>>> Quote: >>>> >...Previously, people in England who died at any point following a positive >>>> test, regardless of cause, were counted in the figures. >>>> But there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate >>>> picture of the epidemic. >>>> >>>> >...The new methodology for counting deaths means the total number of people >>>> in the UK who have died from Covid-19 comes down from 46,706 to 41,329 - a >>>> reduction of 12%. >>>> ------------- >>>> >>>> >...They say the initial higher count was to avoid undercounting the >>>> seriousness of the pandemic. >>>> Translation - we needed a big number to justify shutting down the country >>>> and causing a recession. >>>> >>>> >...They now say the new count will give "crucial information about both >>>> recent trends and the overall mortality burden due to Covid-19". >>>> Translation - Look at the state the economy is in! We'd better get everyone >>>> back to work, so tell them that it's not as bad as we thought! >>>> >>>> >...BillK >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> Hi BillK >>>> >>>> We have lost some important data on this side of the pond too. We can take >>>> the overall death rate this year, subtract the average and we get a number. >>>> In the states, we can do that exercise in every state and compare how the >>>> quarantines were handled. The number we get is a mixture of those who >>>> perished from the virus and those who perished as an indirect result of the >>>> virus such as closing businesses, fear causing business failures and >>>> compelling sick people to stay away from the hospital when it might have >>>> saved them. >>>> >>>> I didn't talk to Steve Van Sickle before he passed to see if he was avoiding >>>> the doctor for fear of covid, but I am one who will go nowhere near that >>>> hospital, not to get a C-19 test, not for an annual checkup, not for any >>>> reason. If I end up there, it is because I was carried there on a stretcher >>>> in the back of a truck with blinkety lights on top. >>>> >>>> We have lost important and useful data from the Sturgis bike rally because >>>> we failed to organize a means of tracking the participants upon their >>>> return. >>>> >>>> Belgium kept telling us that comparing these numbers is meaningless because >>>> they are counted differently from one country to the next. Sounds to me >>>> like they were telling the truth. In the states, hospitals are strained to >>>> the point of going out of business. >>>> >>>> The hospital where I was born (painfully many decades ago) closed its doors >>>> for lack of customers last month. Hospitals were incentivized to report >>>> fatalities as covids to tap into a federal fund. Our Lady of Bellefonte in >>>> Kentucky didn't have enough covid cases to stay in business, and the others >>>> wouldn't go there. >>>> >>>> spike >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 05:22:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 22:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401d672c4$199dd960$4cd98c20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% Maybe the death counts are not correct after all. Did anyone else see this? Interesting methodology for estimating the true death count. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/12/us/covid-deaths-us.html >??Across the United States, at least 200,000 more people have died than usual since March, according to a New York Times analysis of estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is about 60,000 higher than the number of deaths that have been directly linked to the coronavirus. >?As the pandemic has moved south and west from its epicenter in New York City, so have the unusual patterns in deaths from all causes. That suggests that the official death counts may be substantially underestimating the overall effects of the virus, as people die from the virus as well as by other causes linked to the pandemic.? Thanks Henry, This article is behind a paywall. I kinda get the drift from just the first two paragraphs however: it is crazy difficult to analyze the data in a scientifically-useful way. In the states (and perhaps elsewhere) financial and political motives have really messed up data collection. When a person dies, there is seldom just one thing wrong, so the question itself is somewhat subjective. If a test on a corpse detects antibodies, that doesn?t really tell the coroner how long ago the patient had the disease. So? we know. We need to look at overall death rates this year compared to the average of the other years, then say this is about the number of deaths connected to covid, but it is still unclear what percent were from the disease, what percent from government actions taken to stop the pandemic, what percent were from people staying away from the hospital or doctor for fear of covid, etc. These are numbers we may never know. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 09:45:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 05:45:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate picture > of the epidemic.* Or at least a picture of the epidemic that has more public relations value to those running the British government. I?m a COVID-19 long-hauler and an epidemiologist ? here?s how it feels when symptoms last for months Covid-19 ?long haulers? are organizing online to study themselves John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 12:55:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 05:55:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01d67303$6a3b0fc0$3eb12f40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:56 AM BillK via extropy-chat > wrote: > there will now be a cut-off of 28 days, providing a more accurate picture of the epidemic. Or at least a picture of the epidemic that has more public relations value to those running the British government. I?m a COVID-19 long-hauler and an epidemiologist ? here?s how it feels when symptoms last for months Covid-19 ?long haulers? are organizing online to study themselves John K Clark Here?s the money quote: ?As a social epidemiologist who deals with big data, I was certain it was a false negative.? Nowhere in that article does the author say she has ever tested positive for covid-19. Throughout the article is the assumption she does have it (and the tests are no good if they are non-FDA approved (for if they are FDA-approved, they are expensive and proles will not buy them (choosing instead to use the cheaper non-FDA approved kits that don?t work (but they were a great bargain (and offer the option to not believe them (sheesh.))))) The symptoms she describes do not match those who do have positive covid tests. There are other diseases besides covid which have a lot of weird unexplainable symptoms. Patients can convince themselves and even their doctors that they have some particular thing, when they don?t. OK then. She is a data miner. No problem with that, so am I. But how did that convince her she had covid-19 when the symptoms don?t match? Very puzzlin?. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 13:35:12 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 09:35:12 -0400 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: <002e01d67303$6a3b0fc0$3eb12f40$@rainier66.com> References: <002e01d67303$6a3b0fc0$3eb12f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 8:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m a COVID-19 long-hauler and an epidemiologist ? here?s how it feels >> when symptoms last for months >> >> >> >> Covid-19 ?long haulers? are organizing online to study themselves >> >> > > > > > Here?s the money quote: ?As a social epidemiologist who deals with big > data, I was certain it was a false negative.? Nowhere in that article > does the author say she has ever tested positive for covid-19. > In March when she started to get sick the COVID-19 test was really lousy, at least the test used in the USA, and it had a very large false negative. She says "*What made matters worse in the beginning was that my doctors were not certain I had COVID-19*"; *in the beginning* was four months ago, the clear implication is that the degree of her doctor's certainty had changed in that time, the USA test had certainly gotten a lot better, the rest of the world alway had a pretty good test. And Ii's not like this is a controversial phenomenon, even the politically compromised CDC admits that: "*S**ymptomatic adults who had a positive outpatient test result for SARS-CoV-2 infection, 35% had not returned to their usual state of health when interviewed 2?3 weeks after testing. Among persons aged 18?34 years with no chronic medical conditions, one in five had not returned to their usual state of health. COVID-19 can result in prolonged illness, even among young adults without underlying chronic medical conditions.*" Symptom Duration and Risk Factors for Delayed Return to Usual Health Among Outpatients with COVID-19 John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 14:41:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 07:41:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d67303$6a3b0fc0$3eb12f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007301d67312$23aa7eb0$6aff7c10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 6:35 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 8:58 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: I?m a COVID-19 long-hauler and an epidemiologist ? here?s how it feels when symptoms last for months Covid-19 ?long haulers? are organizing online to study themselves > Here?s the money quote: ?As a social epidemiologist who deals with big data, I was certain it was a false negative.? Nowhere in that article does the author say she has ever tested positive for covid-19. In March when she started to get sick the COVID-19 test was really lousy, at least the test used in the USA, and it had a very large false negative. She says "What made matters worse in the beginning was that my doctors were not certain I had COVID-19"; ?John K Clark I am not certain she had covid-19 in the beginning either, nor am I certain now. I am not her doctor. Nowhere in the article does it say she was later diagnosed with the disease, nor has ever tested positive for covid-19 and if so, what test was used. Did she go overseas to get it? We are told any covid test sold in America cannot be trusted (particularly if it tells you what you don?t already believe (isn?t that how that works? (a prole must go to Cuba or China to get a reliable covid test?)))) In any case, the symptoms she described do not sound like covid to me. There are other diseases that do what she describes however. >?I was diagnosed with a respiratory illness? Witvliet What if? she had an actual respiratory illness that isn?t covid. And what if she subsequently convinced herself she had covid-19, then launched a career organizing others with a respiratory illness into a kind sympathetic online social support group in our lonely times of social distancing, and (oops) accidentally created a nice powerful voting bloc? If these things, then she really has not the option of discovering after the fact she never had covid, nor can even risk taking a nice reliable covid test from the best test kits in the world, made in China or North Korea, for they would risk coming back negative, in which case she would need to tell her following ?Never mind, you have a respiratory illness, back to work? etc. Horrors. I can imagine doctors get this kind of thing all the time. We have an actual medical doctor among us who would know, and PhD psychologists who are welcome to jump in at any time. >?My test was negative and I had no fever, so my symptoms did not fit into early descriptions of the disease. Instead, I was diagnosed with a respiratory illness? Witvliet Ja. I had stuff that sound a little like this back in December and January, but I don?t assume it is covid. Estimate about 10%-20% chance that?s what that was, but there are other strains of the flu which don?t match any of the known ones the tests will detect (the usual flu came back negative (this was before we knew of covid.)) I estimate 80 to 90% chance I had a respiratory illness, but some of the after-effects are still with me today, 8 months later. Not much point in getting tested now, since any test I could get is sold in the USA, which means I am free to disregard the results. I will get tested anyway in November at my fiz. Imagine you are a doctor and have a patient who tests covid negative but insists she has covid and is a long term survivor, an organizer of others who likewise tested positive, and she doesn?t trust you if you tell her anything besides what she already knows. What do you do now? What if? a patient is suffering from a variation of attention deficit disorder, where the problem isn?t that they can?t concentrate, but rather they have a psychological need for attention. Having covid would be the best medicine for that condition. I did note that Dr. Margot Witvliet isn?t a medical doctor, but is a political activist: http://www.margotwitvliet.com/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Aug 15 15:03:15 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:03:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% In-Reply-To: <001401d672c4$199dd960$4cd98c20$@rainier66.com> References: <001401d672c4$199dd960$4cd98c20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3BABEAC6-49D7-4094-8DE8-F732A91AB3E1@alumni.virginia.edu> I realize now that I do have a FREE account there which maybe is needed. But all the NYT covid-19 content is free as a public service. I don?t have a paid subscription. I know we?d get a better analysis from you Spike if you read the whole thing. I have friends who say the economy is causing deaths and who might argue the extra deaths are related to stress or poverty or something along those lines. The article however made me think otherwise. I thought it would end after a few more paragraphs than the two I pasted, but it?s quite thorough. I?d love someone?s commentary who?s read it. I?ll email the whole thing to anyone for educational purposes upon request if you don?t want to make a free NYT account. -Henry > On Aug 15, 2020, at 1:23 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] England reduces total Covid-19 deaths by 12% > > Maybe the death counts are not correct after all. Did anyone else see this? Interesting methodology for estimating the true death count. > > https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/12/us/covid-deaths-us.html > > > >??Across the United States, at least 200,000 more people have died than usual since March, according to a New York Times analysis of estimates from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. This is about 60,000 higher than the number of deaths that have been directly linked to the coronavirus. > > > >?As the pandemic has moved south and west from its epicenter in New York City, so have the unusual patterns in deaths from all causes. That suggests that the official death counts may be substantially underestimating the overall effects of the virus, as people die from the virus as well as by other causes linked to the pandemic.? > > > > > > Thanks Henry, > > This article is behind a paywall. I kinda get the drift from just the first two paragraphs however: it is crazy difficult to analyze the data in a scientifically-useful way. In the states (and perhaps elsewhere) financial and political motives have really messed up data collection. When a person dies, there is seldom just one thing wrong, so the question itself is somewhat subjective. If a test on a corpse detects antibodies, that doesn?t really tell the coroner how long ago the patient had the disease. > > So? we know. We need to look at overall death rates this year compared to the average of the other years, then say this is about the number of deaths connected to covid, but it is still unclear what percent were from the disease, what percent from government actions taken to stop the pandemic, what percent were from people staying away from the hospital or doctor for fear of covid, etc. These are numbers we may never know. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 15:06:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 08:06:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning Message-ID: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> This one was definitely worth the 6 minutes to watch. Nothing profound, just a lotta fun: https://youtu.be/8L6T6Yj5u4k {8^D They are all in there, in cameos. Watch closely. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 16:06:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 09:06:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning In-Reply-To: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> That Abba video is evidence for SR and the other younger ones among us of how things really were in the olden days. Sure, we dressed very weird, and it was rather unpleasant to live under the constant threat of total nuclear annihilation and utter fiery destruction of everything we cared about and worked for our entire lives. But other than that?the 70s were a lotta fun. Today we have been stumped by a question of how one could know if one is actually an avatar, a simulation, ?living? in some kind of simulated world in some meta-computer. We seem so tripped by that question, but Abba offers a really good clue. If anyone can watch that video and fail to laugh out loud, or perhaps tap a toe, get some hip action going, bust a disco move or two? then, well, that?s pretty good evidence you are an AI. And you heart subroutine is buggy. The 70s were fun. I was there. I do remember it, fondly. spike https://youtu.be/8L6T6Yj5u4k From: spike at rainier66.com Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2020 8:06 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: a little fun for a saturday morning This one was definitely worth the 6 minutes to watch. Nothing profound, just a lotta fun: https://youtu.be/8L6T6Yj5u4k {8^D They are all in there, in cameos. Watch closely. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 17:08:35 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:08:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning In-Reply-To: <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <11F7D319-E88E-4826-97F3-CE9A87EE7818@gmail.com> On Aug 15, 2020, at 9:08 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > That Abba video is evidence for SR and the other younger ones among us of how things really were in the olden days. Sure, we dressed very weird, and it was rather unpleasant to live under the constant threat of total nuclear annihilation and utter fiery destruction of everything we cared about and worked for our entire lives. I imagine that the fear was more abstract. I mean you didn?t literally wake up every morning wondering if the missiles were on the way, did you? > But other than that?the 70s were a lotta fun. > > Today we have been stumped by a question of how one could know if one is actually an avatar, a simulation, ?living? in some kind of simulated world in some meta-computer. We seem so tripped by that question, but Abba offers a really good clue. If anyone can watch that video and fail to laugh out loud, or perhaps tap a toe, get some hip action going, bust a disco move or two? then, well, that?s pretty good evidence you are an AI. And you heart subroutine is buggy. Why couldn?t an AI have those features too? > The 70s were fun. I was there. I do remember it, fondly. For me, the similar decade would be the late 1990s to the mid-2000s. But I wouldn?t want to go back. https://youtu.be/WCNQ2mc_Zzc Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 18:41:44 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 20:41:44 +0200 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Hello, looking in again after a looong spring. Lots of leaders, news reporters and so on (and plenty of you too) think that Sweden didn?t shut down and quarantined. That is false. We effectively have had and still have a shut down of society and stay at home in parity with most countries. It is enforced by general good sense and not laws. It is still in effect, there has been no recall of societal distancing what so ever. Schools will have all kinds of security measures in place to try to avoid an autumn wawe of virus. Society is bracing for autumn when there always are viruses spreading after holidays and summer. won?t be fun this year One of many reasons for the high toll are how elderly care is organised which unfortunately has guaranteed virus among the elderly. Swedish care of old folks are an capitalistic endeavor that will probably make even the most rightwing hawk republicans think we are slightly extreme..... Anyway killing oldies by capitalism is not likely to change despite this shit. The hit on society by the virus is not due to too little shutdown. Malls, shopping centers and hotels are as dead here as everywhere else. flying is down and planes rusting, railway travel is difficult due to lack of trains in traffic. Web Cameras are still a scarce resource. working from home is the new black. I have visited my old folks once since february. nursing homes are still locked down, no visits. So we didn't do nothing, right? However since there will be a new fever among children as a complement to all the other killers like measles mumps CMV parvo chickenpox and plenty more of killer viri and that one is corona in one form or another since the children does not get as sick or more problems from this one than many other viri. So, forget getting rid of this shit. It won't go away. Ever. Herd immunity is years away, the 1918 flu kept killing people for more than 2 years. And that is what the swedish plan is, to be able to continue with a working lockdown without bankruptcy for more than 2 years. Working vaccines might shorten this but no one here is relying on that yet. And no future is corona free. And the antivaxxers are thriving already, a pox on on them. /henrik Den l?r 15 aug. 2020 kl 02:28 skrev John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: > It's unlikely Sweden has achieved herd immunity, The most recent studies > indicate only 20% of people in Stockholm have been exposed to the virus, > that's about the same number as those in New York and London, and most > think you need at least 70% to achieve herd immunity. Sweden has not had > significantly less economic pain than other countries, it's GDP declined by > 8.6% and yes that's less than the average for the European Union as a whole > which declined by 11.9% but it wasn't as good as some other European > countries which did impose strict lockdowns and had far fewer deaths, the > Czech Republic's GDP declined by 8.4% and Lithuania by only 5.1%. > > And Sweden suffered more non-economic biological pain from the virus than > most, they had 8,200 cases of COVID-19 per million people, Norway had > 1,780, Denmark had 2,560, the UK had 4,600, and the US had 15,400. As for > deaths per 100,000 people, Sweden had 57, Norway had 5, Denmark had 11, the > UK had 70, and the US had 50. But of course this pandemic is far from over > so it will be sometime before we know what the final butcher's bill is. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 15 18:55:37 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:55:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning In-Reply-To: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <28a7451b-f5d5-3a54-bdeb-8b29b4ea206e@pobox.com> On 2020-8-15 08:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > This one was definitely worth the 6 minutes to watch.? Nothing profound, > just a lotta fun: > > https://youtu.be/8L6T6Yj5u4k > > {8^D > > They are all in there, in cameos.? Watch closely. Made trickier by Bj?rn's relatively new beard (it was not in his cameo in ?Mamma Mia? the movie). Or is that Benny? I never remember. Is that Rik Mayall? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 15 19:03:16 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 12:03:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning In-Reply-To: <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d67315$9edeb030$dc9c1090$@rainier66.com> <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <3e683c9e-2121-cad7-3d38-10f487ddbf0e@pobox.com> On 2020-8-15 09:06, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Sure, we dressed very weird, and it was rather unpleasant to live under > the constant threat of total nuclear annihilation and utter fiery > destruction of everything we cared about and worked for our entire lives. > > But other than that?the 70s were a lotta fun. I'm about your age, but was not turned on to ABBA until 1982/3 -- which is also roughly when my fear of nuclear extinction peaked; hmmm. I remember seeing an ABBA video in 199x and remarking, "It's like watching Doctor Who!" -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 19:36:44 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:36:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] a little fun for a saturday morning In-Reply-To: <11F7D319-E88E-4826-97F3-CE9A87EE7818@gmail.com> References: <001101d6731e$04314800$0c93d800$@rainier66.com> <11F7D319-E88E-4826-97F3-CE9A87EE7818@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 1:10 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I imagine that the fear was more abstract. I mean you didn?t literally > wake up every morning wondering if the missiles were on the way, did you?* > I can't speak for anybody else but I personally didn't worry about being burnt to a crisp by a H Bomb every morning, not in the 70s, but I did for 6 days in October 1962. The crisis lasted for 13 days but it was only public knowledge for 6. If I knew as much about the details of what was going on then as I do now I would have been even more scared, but even President Kennedy didn't know them. Those grim details didn't become fully known until long after the fall of the USSR. We were extraordinarily lucky, if Hugh Everett's Interpretation of quantum mechanics is right there are a lot of worlds out there that weren't so lucky. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 15 19:59:47 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 12:59:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder Message-ID: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. Stuart LaForge -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: guns.png Type: image/png Size: 56552 bytes Desc: not available URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 20:11:51 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 13:11:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: At a glance, it looks like murders per capita have much more to do with domestic instability than with the presence of guns. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 1:01 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about > the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains > to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply > posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their > own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. > > Stuart LaForge > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 15 20:14:22 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 13:14:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-15 12:59, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about > the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains > to various nation-states. A scatter-chart would be better imho -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 20:17:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 13:17:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <00b701d67341$22015730$66040590$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder >?I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. Stuart LaForge Cool thanks Stuart. I didn't realize the guns to murders ratio in the US is better than Canada, Finland, Australia and those outfits, but I see good reasons to be optimistic. One might suppose the point isn?t to optimize the ratio of guns to murders, but rather to reduce the number of murders: OK, well, we are working that. In the meantime? we can likely improve the ratio of guns to murders by increasing the number of guns. I am very surprised to see there aren?t even enough guns in the USA for each person to have even one. This in itself is alarming, for it makes me fear I am depriving several helpless Yanks of even their one, as the locals clamor about eliminating police forces. The ratio is improving however. Since the covid shutdown began, the local gun shops have been doing a booming business. When the BLM riots started, the sales really shot up. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 26266 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 20:38:40 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 21:38:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 21:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about > the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains > to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply > posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their > own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. > > Stuart LaForge > _______________________________________________ In the US I thought there were more gun suicides than gun murders. Quote: While gun homicides dominate media coverage of gun violence, the largest category of gun deaths in the United States is suicide. Suicide by firearm accounted for 61 percent of all gun deaths from 2008 through 2017. ------------- BillK From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Aug 15 21:04:49 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 17:04:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns and suicide in the States. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image0.png Type: image/png Size: 78248 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- >> On Aug 15, 2020, at 4:39 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 21:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about >> the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains >> to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply >> posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their >> own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. >> >> Stuart LaForge >> _______________________________________________ > > > In the US I thought there were more gun suicides than gun murders. > > > Quote: > While gun homicides dominate media coverage of gun violence, the > largest category of gun deaths in the United States is suicide. > Suicide by firearm accounted for 61 percent of all gun deaths from > 2008 through 2017. > ------------- > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 21:26:11 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: If you remove the outliers that chart is a lot less compelling. I would believe that low gun ownership is correlated with low suicides and high gun ownership with high suicides, but the middle doesn't *look* that compelling to my stats vision. I'd have to see the stats to know for sure but the middle doesn't look amazing, lots of variation On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 17:05 Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns and suicide > in the States. > > > > >> On Aug 15, 2020, at 4:39 PM, BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 21:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> > >> I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about > >> the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains > >> to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply > >> posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their > >> own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. > >> > >> Stuart LaForge > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > In the US I thought there were more gun suicides than gun murders. > > > > < > https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/news/2019/11/20/477218/gun-violence-america-state-state-analysis/ > > > > Quote: > > While gun homicides dominate media coverage of gun violence, the > > largest category of gun deaths in the United States is suicide. > > Suicide by firearm accounted for 61 percent of all gun deaths from > > 2008 through 2017. > > ------------- > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 21:35:33 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 17:35:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: That's because the actual act of attempting suicide is an impulsive action (I'm not arguing about what leads up to it, but the actual decision to follow through). You get very few do overs with firearms and it is very easy to pull a trigger without fear of future suffering in the act. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 5:05 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns and suicide > in the States. > > > > >> On Aug 15, 2020, at 4:39 PM, BillK via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 21:02, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat > > wrote: > >> > >> I just thought I would share some data that I mined with you all about > >> the relationship between the prevalence guns and murder as it pertains > >> to various nation-states. In lieu of any commentary, I am simply > >> posting the data here in the hopes that the reader would draw their > >> own conclusions. I invite commentary from others, however. > >> > >> Stuart LaForge > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > In the US I thought there were more gun suicides than gun murders. > > > > < > https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/guns-crime/news/2019/11/20/477218/gun-violence-america-state-state-analysis/ > > > > Quote: > > While gun homicides dominate media coverage of gun violence, the > > largest category of gun deaths in the United States is suicide. > > Suicide by firearm accounted for 61 percent of all gun deaths from > > 2008 through 2017. > > ------------- > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 15 22:00:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:00:03 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <010601d6734f$6f331e40$4d995ac0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Guns and Murder >?That's because the actual act of attempting suicide is an impulsive action (I'm not arguing about what leads up to it, but the actual decision to follow through). You get very few do overs with firearms and it is very easy to pull a trigger without fear of future suffering in the act? Dylan Hi Dylan, agree. This has given me pause, and a reason for deep introspection. Guns do offer a painless easy way out should someone decide on that course. One of our former ExI posters chose to go that way, puzzling in a way, for he was a cryonicist, with bracelet. I was friends with him, as he was a local. His intentional passing caused me to rethink some things. For instance, if one owns a firearm, that does offer a painless way out, even if one?s chances with cryonics would of course by greatly diminished, to say the least. But what if? one had a cryonics contract, felt overwhelmed with whatever it is that people feel overwhelmed with when they carry out their final act (I have no experience with whatever that is) but still wish to take a chance with cryonics, uploading in the far future, that sorta thing. Then, perhaps the person makes the deliberate choice to alert the medics and authorities regarding self-murderous intentions, then when the doorbell rings, uses the firearm in such a way that it is scarcely less lethal, but leaves the brain intact. The EMTs realize there is little point in emergency procedures and it is perfectly clear to the coroner the cause of her untimely demise, so only needs to check to see if funding is available for yet another tragic fatality with covid, but otherwise corons and hands over the remains to Max More, assuming coroners coron, Max does what Max does, time does what time does with unfailing consistency, technology does what we fondly hope technology will do, she comes back as an uploaded being. Here?s the scary part: suppose she discovers whatever unspeakable despair led to her initial demise is still with her, but now her trusted firearm is of no further use, for she has no physical fingers. The mind boggles. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 15 22:18:17 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:18:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <010601d6734f$6f331e40$4d995ac0$@rainier66.com> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> <010601d6734f$6f331e40$4d995ac0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Cryonic facilities should do 'euthanasia' on-site, imo--way better chance of the freeze working. If someone is about to die that seems like the smart choice On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 18:00 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Guns and Murder > > > > >?That's because the actual act of attempting suicide is an impulsive > action (I'm not arguing about what leads up to it, but the actual decision > to follow through). You get very few do overs with firearms and it is > very easy to pull a trigger without fear of future suffering in the act? > Dylan > > > > > > Hi Dylan, agree. This has given me pause, and a reason for deep > introspection. Guns do offer a painless easy way out should someone decide > on that course. One of our former ExI posters chose to go that way, > puzzling in a way, for he was a cryonicist, with bracelet. > > > > I was friends with him, as he was a local. His intentional passing caused > me to rethink some things. For instance, if one owns a firearm, that does > offer a painless way out, even if one?s chances with cryonics would of > course by greatly diminished, to say the least. > > > > But what if? one had a cryonics contract, felt overwhelmed with whatever > it is that people feel overwhelmed with when they carry out their final act > (I have no experience with whatever that is) but still wish to take a > chance with cryonics, uploading in the far future, that sorta thing. Then, > perhaps the person makes the deliberate choice to alert the medics and > authorities regarding self-murderous intentions, then when the doorbell > rings, uses the firearm in such a way that it is scarcely less lethal, but > leaves the brain intact. > > > > The EMTs realize there is little point in emergency procedures and it is > perfectly clear to the coroner the cause of her untimely demise, so only > needs to check to see if funding is available for yet another tragic > fatality with covid, but otherwise corons and hands over the remains to Max > More, assuming coroners coron, Max does what Max does, time does what time > does with unfailing consistency, technology does what we fondly hope > technology will do, she comes back as an uploaded being. > > > > Here?s the scary part: suppose she discovers whatever unspeakable despair > led to her initial demise is still with her, but now her trusted firearm is > of no further use, for she has no physical fingers. The mind boggles. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 15 22:35:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 15:35:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <8a122953-d4cb-f94d-eee9-71aafa0abe4c@pobox.com> On 2020-8-15 14:04, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns > and suicide in the States. According to the smaller type, this is suicides *by gun*, which is not nearly as interesting as the total number of suicides; why not show that instead? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 16 01:41:01 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:41:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <010601d6734f$6f331e40$4d995ac0$@rainier66.com> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> <010601d6734f$6f331e40$4d995ac0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <526abf26-9489-ac15-67a8-3e1c9d836749@pobox.com> Once upon a time there was a cryonicist with a slow brain cancer. He planned to get frozen before the cancer ate his mind, but there was a snag: California law required an autopsy for anyone who died outside of medical care (I assume that has not changed), and that would not leave his brain in a desirable condition. So our chap sued the State for an exception. The judge said no: "The State will not help you with your goofy scheme." To which I'd retort: he's not asking the State to do anything, he's asking the State to *not* do something: not destroy the thing that our patient is trying to save. Last I heard, the cancer was in remission, but that was a LONG time ago. On 2020-8-15 15:00, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > But what if? one had a cryonics contract, felt overwhelmed with whatever > it is that people feel overwhelmed with when they carry out their final > act (I have no experience with whatever that is) but still wish to take > a chance with cryonics, uploading in the far future, that sorta thing. > Then, perhaps the person makes the deliberate choice to alert the medics > and authorities regarding self-murderous intentions, then when the > doorbell rings, uses the firearm in such a way that it is scarcely less > lethal, but leaves the brain intact. > > The EMTs realize there is little point in emergency procedures and it is > perfectly clear to the coroner the cause of her untimely demise, so only > needs to check to see if funding is available for yet another tragic > fatality with covid, but otherwise corons and hands over the remains to > Max More, assuming coroners coron, Max does what Max does, time does > what time does with unfailing consistency, technology does what we > fondly hope technology will do, she comes back as an uploaded being. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 02:27:18 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 19:27:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <04CD709A-D102-4C03-B1F1-7982543D9FD3@gmail.com> Looks all over the place to me at first glance. Notice WY, SD, and WV. I don?t doubt there?s some correlation, but it?s not a simple one. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst > On Aug 15, 2020, at 2:06 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns and suicide in the States. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 09:57:45 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:57:45 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds Message-ID: I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than one but not all Everett worlds are real? For example, one could think that a new "real" world is spawned only when there's an inconsistent time loop in a current real world (this seems to be the case in Greg Benford's science fiction novel Timescape). Or, one could think that Everett world's are selected according to some reality criteria and only some (but not all) worlds are accepted. Like in genetic programming, where many parallel evolutions are generated but only some are selected for continuation. Thoughts? From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 10:51:36 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 04:51:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks for this informative reply, Henrik. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 12:42 PM Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hello, looking in again after a looong spring. > Lots of leaders, news reporters and so on (and plenty of you too) think > that Sweden didn?t shut down and quarantined. > That is false. > We effectively have had and still have a shut down of society and stay at > home in parity with most countries. > It is enforced by general good sense and not laws. > It is still in effect, there has been no recall of societal distancing > what so ever. > Schools will have all kinds of security measures in place to try to avoid > an autumn wawe of virus. > Society is bracing for autumn when there always are viruses spreading > after holidays and summer. won?t be fun this year > One of many reasons for the high toll are how elderly care is > organised which unfortunately has guaranteed virus among the elderly. > Swedish care of old folks are an capitalistic endeavor that will probably > make even the most rightwing hawk republicans think we are slightly > extreme..... Anyway killing oldies by capitalism is not likely to change > despite this shit. > The hit on society by the virus is not due to too little shutdown. Malls, > shopping centers and hotels are as dead here as everywhere else. flying is > down and planes rusting, railway travel is difficult due to lack of trains > in traffic. Web Cameras are still a scarce resource. working from home is > the new black. I have visited my old folks once since february. nursing > homes are still locked down, no visits. > So we didn't do nothing, right? > > However since there will be a new fever among children as a complement to > all the other killers like measles mumps CMV parvo chickenpox and plenty > more of killer viri and that one is corona in one form or another since the > children does not get as sick or more problems from this one than many > other viri. > So, forget getting rid of this shit. It won't go away. Ever. > Herd immunity is years away, the 1918 flu kept killing people for more > than 2 years. > And that is what the swedish plan is, to be able to continue with a > working lockdown without bankruptcy for more than 2 years. > Working vaccines might shorten this but no one here is relying on that yet. > And no future is corona free. > > And the antivaxxers are thriving already, a pox on on them. > > /henrik > > > Den l?r 15 aug. 2020 kl 02:28 skrev John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>: > >> It's unlikely Sweden has achieved herd immunity, The most recent studies >> indicate only 20% of people in Stockholm have been exposed to the virus, >> that's about the same number as those in New York and London, and most >> think you need at least 70% to achieve herd immunity. Sweden has not had >> significantly less economic pain than other countries, it's GDP declined by >> 8.6% and yes that's less than the average for the European Union as a whole >> which declined by 11.9% but it wasn't as good as some other European >> countries which did impose strict lockdowns and had far fewer deaths, the >> Czech Republic's GDP declined by 8.4% and Lithuania by only 5.1%. >> >> And Sweden suffered more non-economic biological pain from the virus than >> most, they had 8,200 cases of COVID-19 per million people, Norway had >> 1,780, Denmark had 2,560, the UK had 4,600, and the US had 15,400. As >> for deaths per 100,000 people, Sweden had 57, Norway had 5, Denmark had 11, >> the UK had 70, and the US had 50. But of course this pandemic is far >> from over so it will be sometime before we know what the final butcher's >> bill is. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 11:01:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:01:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 6:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any > interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than > one but not all Everett worlds are real?* > The great advantage of Everett's Quantum interpretation is the simplicity of its assumptions, it says everything including conscious observers obey the exact same laws of physics and evolve according to the purely deterministic Schrodinger wave equation, all other quantum interpretations stick in a whole bunch of additional ifs, buts and howevers at that point. If some of the worlds allowed by Schrodinger are real and others are not then additional rules and assumptions would be needed and that simplicity would be destroyed. And there is no reason needed to stick in those additional assumptions to explain experimental results. Somebody said Everett is cheap with assumptions but expensive in universes, maybe so but I think an idea that starts with simplicity but produces great complexity is a sign of a good theory, Darwin's theory would be an example. You should always get more out of a theory than you put in or it has no point. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 11:07:46 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 05:07:46 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <04CD709A-D102-4C03-B1F1-7982543D9FD3@gmail.com> References: <2CCCC958-4743-4DFC-B1B5-EA07C763B49A@alumni.virginia.edu> <04CD709A-D102-4C03-B1F1-7982543D9FD3@gmail.com> Message-ID: No data on Japan????? My understanding, after living there for 2 years, is there are effectively no guns and no murder, compared to everywhere else. And yes, it'd be nice to see total suicide, not just gin suicide. But thanks for what has been provided, very interesting. On Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 8:28 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Looks all over the place to me at first glance. Notice WY, SD, and WV. I > don?t doubt there?s some correlation, but it?s not a simple one. > > Regards, > > Dan > Sample my Kindle books at: > > http://author.to/DanUst > > On Aug 15, 2020, at 2:06 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?And there?s a correlation between access to/possession of guns and > suicide in the States. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 12:07:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 08:07:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 4:02 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> In lieu of any commentary, I am simply posting the data here* That chart would be clearer if it didn't have such radically different scaling factors, guns per *hundreds* versus murders per* millions*. What stands out to me is that the US has about 2 1/2 times more guns per capita than the next highest country, and that its murder rate is much closer to that of Yeman than the murder rate in Japan or in any western European nation. Mozambique has a AK-47 on its flag but the US is the only country in the world that has more guns than people. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 16 13:55:30 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 06:55:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-16 05:07, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > That chart would be clearer if it didn't have such radically different > scaling factors, guns per *hundreds* versus murders per *millions*. Clearer how? If the correlation is real, the scale shouldn't matter. One does not expect each a gun, on average, to kill ~once a year. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 14:00:20 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 16:00:20 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a quasi-Everettian framework. On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 13:03, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 6:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any >> interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than >> one but not all Everett worlds are real?* >> > > The great advantage of Everett's Quantum interpretation is the simplicity > of its assumptions, it says everything including conscious observers obey > the exact same laws of physics and evolve according to the purely > deterministic Schrodinger wave equation, all other quantum interpretations > stick in a whole bunch of additional ifs, buts and howevers at that point. > If some of the worlds allowed by Schrodinger are real and others are not then > additional rules and assumptions would be needed and that simplicity would > be destroyed. And there is no reason needed to stick in those additional > assumptions to explain experimental results. Somebody said Everett is > cheap with assumptions but expensive in universes, maybe so but I think > an idea that starts with simplicity but produces great complexity is a sign > of a good theory, Darwin's theory would be an example. You should always > get more out of a theory than you put in or it has no point. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 14:19:28 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:19:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room > for free will. > There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear free will fans are destined to be unhappy. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 14:56:04 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:56:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >> room for free will. >> > > There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum > mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of > free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause > and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's > random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear > free will fans are destined to be unhappy. > > John K Clark > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 14:58:18 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:58:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is > suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe > and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >>> room for free will. >>> >> >> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:22:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:22:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is classical mechanics! Or quantum theory with collapse and all decisions made and stored in advance! On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 16:57, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is > suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe > and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >>> room for free will. >>> >> >> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:25:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:25:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >> >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >>>> room for free will. >>>> >>> >>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:27:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:27:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 16:21, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >> room for free will. >> > > There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum > mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of > free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause > and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's > random) > I question this point (aka it?s random). What if the cause is hidden to players in our universe (Turing?s oracle) ? My favorite analogy for this is, if we play chess and you are a much better player than me, some of your moves will seem random to me, but of course they are not random, only beyond my understanding. and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear free will > fans are destined to be unhappy. > > John K Clark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:42:37 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:42:37 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may > reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept > aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just > how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w > To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). Science should explain our experience to at least some degree, not deny it. I like the elegance of Everett?s idea, but I search ways to make it more compatible with free will. > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? >> >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >>> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >>> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >>>>> room for free will. >>>>> >>>> >>>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 15:47:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 08:47:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d101d673e4$9aac01f0$d00405d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:58 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Giulio Prisco Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds >...I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than one but not all Everett worlds are real? For example, one could think that a new "real" world is spawned only when there's an inconsistent time loop in a current real world (this seems to be the case in Greg Benford's science fiction novel Timescape). Or, one could think that Everett world's are selected according to some reality criteria and only some (but not all) worlds are accepted. Like in genetic programming, where many parallel evolutions are generated but only some are selected for continuation. Thoughts? _______________________________________________ Hi Giulio, Since you are thinking about this kind of thing, you are OK with the mind-blowing aspects you encounter while frolicking on that particular and peculiar philosophical playground. As an offshoot to your idea, imagine a slightly modified Everett universe where you have quantum branching and all that, but... not every possible quantum branch is allowed, not even most of them, but only those which can somehow cause what I will call spike convergence. Spike convergence is where many different quantum events can happen in arbitrary order, but they all hafta somehow end up in an identical end state. Consider a particle anti-particle pair which somehow borrows energy for a Planck, goes a very short distance apart, comes back together, annihilate, hand back the energy it borrowed, does it all in a short enough time and small enough space to not hurt Dr. Heisenberg's feelings. Wacky scenario, ja? But current theory tells us this happens skerjillions of times per picosecond in every cubic nothing of space, constantly, and no one is the wiser, because once those particles live and die, we have no way to know they were ever there. They were born, lived and died, left no will. The universe was in exactly the same condition before and after. Their pointless existence had no impact at all, because their future world converged with the future that would have been there had not they ever existed. OK, is that kinda how you think about quantum mechanics? Me too. The only conditions that I know of where a quantum pair doesn't spike converge is when one falls into the event horizon and the other heads on out of town. Dr. Hawking used that mechanism to explain why black holes evaporate. Damned if I understand how that wouldn't violate Dr. Heisenberg's notion, but hey, the Brits and the Germans have been fighting for a long time. Here's where I am going with all this: what if... the number of Everett universes is not really infinite, but rather is unimaginably large and finite? In that scenario, only quantum branches allowed are those which somehow converge with the others, such that there is ultimately one possible future state, with maaaaany many paths to get there. The present, with all its many possible branches forms a kind of braided rope configuration sorta, with skerjillions of strands, with a known far past (the pre-big bang universe) and each strand representing a possible now but only one possible future. I think of it as a kind of quantum rope, with pointy ends. Oy vey, words are not very good tools for describing what really needs equations. As a parting thought, consider this. The universe is either open, closed or exactly in-between. Many physics fans here who are old have lived thru a progression in our lives where the universe was widely thought to be closed. That the end state is where the expansion eventually stops, convergence begins, THE END is an enormous black hole where all matter and energy ends up, with that end state identical to all other paths to that end state. We end up the same way we started, with no matter and no space and no time. Oh that is so sad. Then it became more popular to think there was all this missing matter or something that somehow made the universe exactly flat, or some reason why the universe must be exactly flat. Then stuff keeps flying apart, and the end game is heat death, which is not really a convergence: there are various ways cold dark matter could be distributed in the final state, ja? In 2011, Saul Perlmutter was given a Nobel in physics for convincing us about the accelerating expansion of the universe, an open configuration, which results eventually in the terrifying Big Rip scenario, equally sad with the Big Crunch scenario, but that scenario is also convergence. Reasoning: every Big Rip end state where all the matter is ripped to quarks and the energy infinitesimally tenuous spread out over infinite space is identical to every other Big Rip scenario, regardless of what path it took or how it got there. So sad was that Big Rip scenario, but it resulted in the funniest episode of Big Bang Theory ever, where Sheldon expresses what plenty of us were feeling deep inside, except for a different reason. Ref: The Speckerman Recurrence, season 5, episode 11. I wet my diapers laughing at that one. The writers of that show were brilliant. I met Saul Permutter in the flesh, nicest guy he is and a fine person, but I do hope he is wrong. We must stop inflation somehow. The universe must be exactly flat, somehow. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:48:24 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:48:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). giulio You accept something as a fact that has no and never will have any experimental evidence? Your certainty means zero. Of course if this is part of your religion, then you are letting your religion interfere drastically with your science. Scientists don't do experimenting going in with unproven assumptions. Big NONO. bill w On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:44 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may >> reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept >> aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just >> how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w >> > > To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more > certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). Science should > explain our experience to at least some degree, not deny it. I like the > elegance of Everett?s idea, but I search ways to make it more compatible > with free will. > > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >>>> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >>>> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves >>>>>> no room for free will. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>>>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>>>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>>>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>>>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>>>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:53:06 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:53:06 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <00d101d673e4$9aac01f0$d00405d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101d673e4$9aac01f0$d00405d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:48, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > > Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat > > Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 2:58 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Cc: Giulio Prisco > > Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds > > > > >...I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any > > interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than > > one but not all Everett worlds are real? > > For example, one could think that a new "real" world is spawned only when > > there's an inconsistent time loop in a current real world (this seems to be > > the case in Greg Benford's science fiction novel Timescape). > > Or, one could think that Everett world's are selected according to some > > reality criteria and only some (but not all) worlds are accepted. > > Like in genetic programming, where many parallel evolutions are generated > > but only some are selected for continuation. > > Thoughts? > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Hi Giulio, > > > > Since you are thinking about this kind of thing, you are OK with the > > mind-blowing aspects you encounter while frolicking on that particular and > > peculiar philosophical playground. Wow! Let me digest this and reply later! > > > > As an offshoot to your idea, imagine a slightly modified Everett universe > > where you have quantum branching and all that, but... not every possible > > quantum branch is allowed, not even most of them, but only those which can > > somehow cause what I will call spike convergence. Spike convergence is > > where many different quantum events can happen in arbitrary order, but they > > all hafta somehow end up in an identical end state. > > > > Consider a particle anti-particle pair which somehow borrows energy for a > > Planck, goes a very short distance apart, comes back together, annihilate, > > hand back the energy it borrowed, does it all in a short enough time and > > small enough space to not hurt Dr. Heisenberg's feelings. Wacky scenario, > > ja? But current theory tells us this happens skerjillions of times per > > picosecond in every cubic nothing of space, constantly, and no one is the > > wiser, because once those particles live and die, we have no way to know > > they were ever there. They were born, lived and died, left no will. The > > universe was in exactly the same condition before and after. Their > > pointless existence had no impact at all, because their future world > > converged with the future that would have been there had not they ever > > existed. > > > > OK, is that kinda how you think about quantum mechanics? Me too. > > > > The only conditions that I know of where a quantum pair doesn't spike > > converge is when one falls into the event horizon and the other heads on > out > > of town. Dr. Hawking used that mechanism to explain why black holes > > evaporate. Damned if I understand how that wouldn't violate Dr. > > Heisenberg's notion, but hey, the Brits and the Germans have been fighting > > for a long time. > > > > Here's where I am going with all this: what if... the number of Everett > > universes is not really infinite, but rather is unimaginably large and > > finite? > > > > In that scenario, only quantum branches allowed are those which somehow > > converge with the others, such that there is ultimately one possible future > > state, with maaaaany many paths to get there. The present, with all its > > many possible branches forms a kind of braided rope configuration sorta, > > with skerjillions of strands, with a known far past (the pre-big bang > > universe) and each strand representing a possible now but only one possible > > future. I think of it as a kind of quantum rope, with pointy ends. > > > > Oy vey, words are not very good tools for describing what really needs > > equations. > > > > As a parting thought, consider this. The universe is either open, closed > or > > exactly in-between. Many physics fans here who are old have lived thru a > > progression in our lives where the universe was widely thought to be > closed. > > That the end state is where the expansion eventually stops, convergence > > begins, THE END is an enormous black hole where all matter and energy ends > > up, with that end state identical to all other paths to that end state. We > > end up the same way we started, with no matter and no space and no time. > Oh > > that is so sad. > > > > Then it became more popular to think there was all this missing matter or > > something that somehow made the universe exactly flat, or some reason why > > the universe must be exactly flat. Then stuff keeps flying apart, and the > > end game is heat death, which is not really a convergence: there are > various > > ways cold dark matter could be distributed in the final state, ja? > > > > In 2011, Saul Perlmutter was given a Nobel in physics for convincing us > > about the accelerating expansion of the universe, an open configuration, > > which results eventually in the terrifying Big Rip scenario, equally sad > > with the Big Crunch scenario, but that scenario is also convergence. > > Reasoning: every Big Rip end state where all the matter is ripped to quarks > > and the energy infinitesimally tenuous spread out over infinite space is > > identical to every other Big Rip scenario, regardless of what path it took > > or how it got there. > > > > So sad was that Big Rip scenario, but it resulted in the funniest episode > of > > Big Bang Theory ever, where Sheldon expresses what plenty of us were > feeling > > deep inside, except for a different reason. Ref: The Speckerman > Recurrence, > > season 5, episode 11. I wet my diapers laughing at that one. The writers > > of that show were brilliant. > > > > I met Saul Permutter in the flesh, nicest guy he is and a fine person, but > I > > do hope he is wrong. We must stop inflation somehow. The universe must be > > exactly flat, somehow. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 15:56:53 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:56:53 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more > certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). giulio > > You accept something as a fact that has no and never will have any > experimental evidence? > ??? No experimental evidence? I have a lifetime of experimental evidence! So does everyone. Your certainty means zero. Of course if this is part of your religion, > then you are letting your religion interfere drastically with your science. > Scientists don't do experimenting going in with unproven assumptions. Big > NONO. bill w > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:44 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may >>> reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept >>> aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just >>> how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w >>> >> >> To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more >> certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). Science should >> explain our experience to at least some degree, not deny it. I like the >> elegance of Everett?s idea, but I search ways to make it more compatible >> with free will. >> >> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >>>>> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >>>>> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves >>>>>>> no room for free will. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>>>>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>>>>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>>>>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>>>>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>>>>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>>>>> >>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 16:06:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:06:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Guns and Murder In-Reply-To: References: <20200815125947.Horde.Rbk3Hoe1ZecPNwX79GQc4c5@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <00ec01d673e7$3b832b60$b2898220$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?Mozambique has a AK-47 on its flag but the US is the only country in the world that has more guns than people. John K Clark Mozambique, HAH! We can take those guys, easy. I have questioned that gun count in the USA. I consider it most implausible that all those American people are unarmed. I would sure hope not. But there is reason for optimism: guns never die if they are properly cared for. The local sporting good store was selling 30.06s from WW1, still perfectly serviceable after a century. Some of them were a little beat up from high school drill teams using them for half-time shows, tossing them around and such, but they are cheap, reliable and have the whole antique thing going. It?s kinda cool thinking that one?s own great great grandfather might have carried that rifle or one just like it, fighting Crazy Bill?s huns. In any case? we don?t know how many guns there are in the USA, we don?t know how much ammo. We have no way of finding out really, for it?s best to not tell that info. Then only the bad guys who will be a problem are those who feel lucky. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 16:06:52 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:06:52 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:37 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >> random) >> > > *> I question this point (aka it?s random). What if the cause is hidden to > players in our universe* > If something caused you to do X rather than Y then you're a deterministic machine regardless of whether you know what the cause was or not. So like it or not there are only two possibilities, you're either a roulette wheel or a cuckoo clock. The idea of free will is not wrong, the idea of free will is worse than wrong, it's gibberish. Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is violated, therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays now and not an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those hidden variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very hard for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so many things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything before we understood anything. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 16:41:44 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:41:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 12:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is violated, > therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays now and not > an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those hidden > variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very hard > for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so many > things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything > before we understood anything. > > John K Clark > John- Doesn't the fact that quantum effects are not a factor at a relatively small size of matter explain why we are able to under as much as we have been able to about the universe (classical physics, chemistry, spectrography, even relativity)? I feel like once we get down to concepts like entanglement, it continues to point to a very fundamental lack of understanding of what quantum effects actually are showing us. For me, non-local effects remain one of the more baffling aspects of quantum mechanics, although the entire theory would be hard to believe in any interpretation of it if we didn't have experimental evidence of it. The idea of needing an observer to collapse a wave has always bothered me, but I also don't like the idea that the many world's hypothesis seems very hard to test. Are there any good recent books presenting the latest quantum theory that are non-mathematician friendly, yet still scratch the surface? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 16:59:16 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:59:16 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 18:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 12:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is violated, >> therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays now and not >> an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those hidden >> variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very hard >> for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so many >> things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything >> before we understood anything. >> >> John K Clark >> > > John- > > Doesn't the fact that quantum effects are not a factor at a relatively > small size of matter explain why we are able to under as much as we have > been able to about the universe (classical physics, chemistry, > spectrography, even relativity)? > > I feel like once we get down to concepts like entanglement, it continues > to point to a very fundamental lack of understanding of what quantum > effects actually are showing us. For me, non-local effects remain one of > the more baffling aspects of quantum mechanics, although the entire theory > would be hard to believe in any interpretation of it if we didn't have > experimental evidence of it. > > The idea of needing an observer to collapse a wave has always bothered me, > but I also don't like the idea that the many world's hypothesis seems very > hard to test. > > Are there any good recent books presenting the latest quantum theory that > are non-mathematician friendly, yet still scratch the surface? > > Sean Carroll?s last book Something Deeply Hidden is good. Carroll is an Everettian. > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 17:47:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:47:15 -0700 Subject: [ExI] impact of covid Message-ID: <002501d673f5$486d9050$d948b0f0$@rainier66.com> Santa Clara County has a population of a little over 2 million, with about half of that in San Jose CA. Here?s our covid fatality graph: Ja we know, it mixes the WITHs and OFs (there is nothing we can do about that) and it excludes the KINDA RELATED TOs. The kinda related tos are covid-ish fatalities where the prole didn?t actually have covid but was afraid to go to the doctor, perished of a heart attack or stroke which coulda been prevented, patients whose medications need constant tweaking to keep them from going crazy and killing someone else, but didn?t go to their psychiatrist, the ones who were bored and lonely and committed suicide just to have something to do, the ones hanging out in the parking lot of the local cat house to watch, got caught, died of embarrassment, and all that kinda stuff, none of that is in this chart, but all your WITHS and OFs are here. OK we see 209 fatalities, almost half of which were in nursing homes, and if you break it down further, over ? of these fatalities were in the San Jose city limits. Do think this over please, comment if you have something insightful to offer. I have a notion I will present soon, where this chart is the prerequisite course. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48082 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 18:01:20 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:01:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. Murderers were unable not to murder and therefore should not be punished. That?s a load of bull. SR Ballard > On Aug 16, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 18:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 12:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is violated, therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays now and not an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those hidden variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very hard for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so many things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything before we understood anything. >>> >>> John K Clark >> >> >> John- >> >> Doesn't the fact that quantum effects are not a factor at a relatively small size of matter explain why we are able to under as much as we have been able to about the universe (classical physics, chemistry, spectrography, even relativity)? >> >> I feel like once we get down to concepts like entanglement, it continues to point to a very fundamental lack of understanding of what quantum effects actually are showing us. For me, non-local effects remain one of the more baffling aspects of quantum mechanics, although the entire theory would be hard to believe in any interpretation of it if we didn't have experimental evidence of it. >> >> The idea of needing an observer to collapse a wave has always bothered me, but I also don't like the idea that the many world's hypothesis seems very hard to test. >> >> Are there any good recent books presenting the latest quantum theory that are non-mathematician friendly, yet still scratch the surface? >> > > Sean Carroll?s last book Something Deeply Hidden is good. Carroll is an Everettian. > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 18:21:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 13:21:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I"ll bite - how do you measure free will? No facts without measurement, and no experiment without controls, and all that. The only way to measure an abstraction is to operationalize the definition. So what's yours? bill w On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:12 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:55, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more >> certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). giulio >> >> You accept something as a fact that has no and never will have any >> experimental evidence? >> > > ??? No experimental evidence? I have a lifetime of experimental evidence! > So does everyone. > > Your certainty means zero. Of course if this is part of your religion, >> then you are letting your religion interfere drastically with your science. >> Scientists don't do experimenting going in with unproven assumptions. Big >> NONO. bill w >> >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:44 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may >>>> reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept >>>> aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just >>>> how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w >>>> >>> >>> To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more >>> certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). Science should >>> explain our experience to at least some degree, not deny it. I like the >>> elegance of Everett?s idea, but I search ways to make it more compatible >>> with free will. >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >>>>>> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >>>>>> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves >>>>>>>> no room for free will. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>>>>>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>>>>>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>>>>>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>>>>>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>>>>>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> John K Clark >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 18:32:20 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 19:32:20 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Black Hole Hawking radiation Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 16:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The only conditions that I know of where a quantum pair doesn't spike > converge is when one falls into the event horizon and the other heads on out > of town. Dr. Hawking used that mechanism to explain why black holes > evaporate. Damned if I understand how that wouldn't violate Dr. > Heisenberg's notion, but hey, the Brits and the Germans have been fighting > for a long time. > > _______________________________________________ Hawking did indeed write that in the 1988 book, A Brief History Of Time, but that isn't what he wrote in his science papers. He was trying to simplify / interpret, in a book intended for the general public. A detailed explanation is here - Quote: In reality, what?s happening is that the curved space around the black hole is constantly emitting radiation due to the curvature gradient around it, and that the energy is coming from the black hole itself, causing its event horizon to slowly shrink over time. --------- (But the split quantum pairs description is still easier to understand)! BillK From atymes at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:04:59 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:04:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] impact of covid In-Reply-To: <002501d673f5$486d9050$d948b0f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002501d673f5$486d9050$d948b0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My eyes kept trying to read "(in thousands)" on the fatalities, and I had to keep reminding myself that even just 209 out of over a million can still be significant. On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Santa Clara County has a population of a little over 2 million, with about > half of that in San Jose CA. > > > > Here?s our covid fatality graph: > > > > > > Ja we know, it mixes the WITHs and OFs (there is nothing we can do about > that) and it excludes the KINDA RELATED TOs. > > > > The kinda related tos are covid-ish fatalities where the prole didn?t > actually have covid but was afraid to go to the doctor, perished of a heart > attack or stroke which coulda been prevented, patients whose medications > need constant tweaking to keep them from going crazy and killing someone > else, but didn?t go to their psychiatrist, the ones who were bored and > lonely and committed suicide just to have something to do, the ones hanging > out in the parking lot of the local cat house to watch, got caught, died of > embarrassment, and all that kinda stuff, none of that is in this chart, but > all your WITHS and OFs are here. > > > > OK we see 209 fatalities, almost half of which were in nursing homes, and > if you break it down further, over ? of these fatalities were in the San > Jose city limits. > > > > Do think this over please, comment if you have something insightful to > offer. I have a notion I will present soon, where this chart is the > prerequisite course. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 48082 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 19:09:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:09:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Black Hole Hawking radiation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006a01d67400$c1159f10$4340dd30$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Black Hole Hawking radiation On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 16:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The only conditions that I know of where a quantum pair doesn't spike > converge is when one falls into the event horizon and the other heads > on out of town. Dr. Hawking used that mechanism to explain why black > holes evaporate. Damned if I understand how that wouldn't violate Dr. > Heisenberg's notion, but hey, the Brits and the Germans have been > fighting for a long time. > > _______________________________________________ >...Hawking did indeed write that in the 1988 book, A Brief History Of Time, but that isn't what he wrote in his science papers. He was trying to simplify / interpret, in a book intended for the general public. >...A detailed explanation is here - Quote: >...In reality, what?s happening is that the curved space around the black hole is constantly emitting radiation due to the curvature gradient around it, and that the energy is coming from the black hole itself, causing its event horizon to slowly shrink over time. --------- (But the split quantum pairs description is still easier to understand)! BillK _______________________________________________ COOL! Thanks BillK! Ja the Hawking explanation might be easier to understand but it also contains a consequence which has been bugging me for over 30 yrs, since I read Hawking's History. If one goes with his description and are not really a 4-dimensional calculus jockey, then one is kinda forced into the particle-antiparticle pair explanation, but that pits two German physicists against each other: Dr. Schwarzschild vs Dr. Heisenberg. Schwarzschild's theory holds that one of those particles can cross the radius but once it does, it's the space version of Hotel California, it can never leave. The other once can, (and if you do the equations, it must (because of its energy/mass ratio (super-red shifted but away it goes.))) Heisenberg says those two particles must find each other somehow, before the universe notices they were ever there. Looks to me like it was Schwarzschild vs Heisenberg, and Hawking was calling the match for the former. But... there is something that has bugged the hell outta me, caused me to lose more sleep than all that coffee I drank trying to figure it out. We get it that a particle/antiparticle pair has an axis, if conservation of momentum is real, but for Hawking's explanation to work, the antimatter particle would need to fall inward more often than the matter particle. If not, it represents this huge symmetry-breaking phenomenon which just hurts to even think about. The particles would need to know which one is the antiparticle, so that it can fall inward and make the black hole evaporate. Otherwise the event would be just as likely to cause the black hole to condense as to evaporate. The particles emitted by an evaporating black hole would be as likely antimatter as matter. Help me here BillK. Wouldn't the traditional Hawking explanation cause the universe to eventually be as much antimatter as matter? Clearly it isn't. This has bothered me since 1989. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:29:35 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:29:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <00d101d673e4$9aac01f0$d00405d0$@rainier66.com> References: <00d101d673e4$9aac01f0$d00405d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * >Consider a particle anti-particle pair which somehow borrows energy for > a Planck, goes a very short distance apart, comes back together, > annihilate, hand back the energy it borrowed, does it all in a short enough > time and small enough space to not hurt Dr. Heisenberg's feelings. Wacky > scenario, ja? But current theory tells us this happens skerjillions of > times per picosecond in every cubic nothing of space, constantly, and no > one is the wiser, because once those particles live and die, we have no way > to know they were ever there. They were born, lived and died, left no > will. Theuniverse was in exactly the same condition before and after. * You can't detect virtual pride articles directly but the world would be a very different place if they didn't exist. For example Richard Feynman told us how to calculate the magnetic moment of an electron by adding up contributions made by the virtual particles and the results agree with experimental results better than one part in 10^12. Or consider the Casimir Effect. Quantum Mechanics says that in empty space particles such as photons of light can pop into existence from nothing, but only for a very short time; in accordance with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle the more energetic the new virtual photon is the shorter the time it is allowed to exist. If you place two flat uncharged mirrors close together then there can NOT be virtual photons of every wavelength in the vacuum between the mirrors as there are outside, only a wavelength equal to the distance between mirrors are allowed, or half that wavelength, or a third or a fourth etc (it's the same reason a organ pipe will not make any sound but only sounds that resonate inside the pipe). But outside of the mirrors there is no such restriction and the virtual photons can be of any wavelength. Thus there are more virtual particles in the vacuum outside the mirrors pushing them together than there are between the mirrors pushing them apart. So the mirrors will attract each other. This attractive force was predicted to exist in 1948 but it wasn't until 1997 that it was confirmed in the lab to actually exist with just the strength Casimir said it would have. If the Vacuum outside the mirror has zero energy then the space between the mirrors must contain negative energy > *Here's where I am going with all this: what if... the number of Everett > universes is not really infinite, but rather is unimaginably large and > finite?* That could very well be true. Maybe the number of things that are physically possible is astronomically huge raised to an astronomically huge power but is not infinite; it wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that space or time or both are not infinitely divisible, but right now nobody really knows. > > * > In 2011, Saul Perlmutter was given a Nobel in physics for convincing > us about the accelerating expansion of the universe, an open configuration, > which results eventually in the terrifying Big Rip scenario, equally sad > with the Big Crunch scenario,* Maybe not all that terrifying. Remember Frank Tipler? He argued that if we're heading for a Big Crunch infinite physical life is still possible because in such a universe an infinite number of calculations could be performed, in fact he said the Big Crunch would be necessary to achieve eternal subjective life. It sure doesn't look like we're heading for a Big Crunch but perhaps a similar sort of argument could be made for a Big Rip. For years physicists debated if gravitational waves were real, some said they contained no energy and so were just a mathematical artifact of no physical significance. But then in 1957 Richard Feynman came up with a thought experiment that showed gravitational waves must contain energy and thus must have real physical effects, the sticky bead argument. I could be wrong but it sure seems to me it could also show that work can be extracted from the accelerating expansion of the universe. Feynman said place two beads on a sticky rigid rod, the beads can slide freely but there is a small amount of friction between the beads and the rod. If the rod is placed transversely to the direction of propagation of the gravitational wave then atomic forces will hold the length of the rod fixed, or almost fixed, but the proper distance between the two beads would be free to oscillate. So the beads would have to rub against the rod, and the friction from that would produce heat, and with heat you could run a steam engine and get work out of it. Why couldn?t the same argument also be used to show you could get work out of the expansion of the universe? We already know that if local forces are strong enough they can overcome the general expansion and acceleration of the universe, that?s why the Andromeda galaxy is approaching the Milky Way, the 2 galaxies are so close that the gravitational attraction is stronger than the repulsion caused by the expansion of the universe. The atomic forces within the rod should keep its length the same or almost the same just as it did for gravitational waves, but the distance between the beads should increase due to the expansion of the universe and if there is friction I don?t see how heat could be avoided even if you wanted to. I think it would work theoretically, it would be ridiculously impractical to do now but perhaps not in the very distant future if the acceleration of the universe is itself accelerating and we?re heading for the Big Rip. Far from being a cause for gloom it could be that any hope for an immortal life requires a Big Rip By "immortality" I mean the ability to have an infinite number of new thoughts and never having a last thought, but that would require an infinite number of calculations, and that would require an infinite amount of work, and it might be possible to get the universe to do that much work before the Big Rip. Your computer would continually get smaller as it was getting pulled apart but the energy available to run what was still intact would keep getting larger because the heat from friction would keep getting hotter and the cold sink of the external universe would keep getting colder increasing the efficiency of the heat engine. If the increase in speed of the remaining computer compensated for the decrease in the number of processors then physical law may allow for an infinite (and not just astronomical) number of calculations to be made between now and The Big Rip. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 19:42:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:42:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Black Hole Hawking radiation In-Reply-To: <006a01d67400$c1159f10$4340dd30$@rainier66.com> References: <006a01d67400$c1159f10$4340dd30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007d01d67405$646ef4a0$2d4cdde0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... --------- (But the split quantum pairs description is still easier to understand)! BillK _______________________________________________ Sheesh, I am so damned ashamed of myself I could die of embarrassment (and it wouldn't even help to call Max More (because if I take the old nitro-bath, later upload, my thoughts would presumably take up where I left off (and I would still be just as embarrassed (the coward and the clueless amateur physicist die a thousand deaths.)))) All this time, after aaaaallll these years, I failed to see another obvious anomaly with the Hawking Pair explanation (besides the symmetry breaking, previously mentioned.) A second one I just realized before I even read the article BillK sent: even if antimatter falls into the Schwarzschild radius, that still wouldn't cause the black hole to evaporate! Reasoning: assume there is a mechanism which would preferentially drop antimatter into the black hole. The anti-particle would annihilate a matter particle. Then the pair fall to the left side of the equals sign in the equation E = mc^2 however... all that E stays inside the black hole. The E from the mc^2 is all still trapped inside there, and it all still has a mass equivalent. This means a steady rain of antimatter wouldn't cause the Schwarzschild radius to increase at all. How could I have missed that for so long? Oy vey. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 19:42:30 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:42:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No > motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of > outside forces and cannot be held accountable. * > Sure they can. The only reason to hold anyone accountable for doing a bad thing is to prevent more bad things from happening in the future. That's justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for the joy of watching him suffer is vengeance. The threat of punishment is just one more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting other people, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 16 19:56:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 12:56:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] impact of covid In-Reply-To: References: <002501d673f5$486d9050$d948b0f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008501d67407$5eeea6e0$1ccbf4a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] impact of covid >?My eyes kept trying to read "(in thousands)" on the fatalities, and I had to keep reminding myself that even just 209 out of over a million can still be significant? Hi Adrian, ja. The news coverage has caused plenty of people to think there are a lot more covid fatalities than there really are. The difference between 10% of the population perishing and a hundredth of a percent is? big. Physics is far more significant than immunology and epidemiology. Or rather I have more to contribute in that area perhaps. Rather than post my insight, I am going to suspend on this covid subject for now. Reason: suddenly there is actual PHYSICS happening on ExI. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 20:02:00 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 16:02:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those interested, Sam Harris, has thought a lot about this topic. He doesn't believe in free will and has a similar attitude to John. His book Free Will is a start, but it permeates all of his thought. For those who want a non-scientifc way out of this conundrum, read Lucretius's De Rerum Natura. He posits a swerve at the atomic level (Greek/Roman atoms, not ours), that allows for free will. As an aside, The Swerve is a fascinating book about the rediscovery and preservation of Lucretius's masterful Epicurean poem. On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 3:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No >> motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of >> outside forces and cannot be held accountable. * >> > > Sure they can. The only reason to hold anyone accountable for doing a bad > thing is to prevent more bad things from happening in the future. That's > justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for the joy > of watching him suffer is vengeance. The threat of punishment is just one > more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting other > people, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance. > > John K Clark > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 20:13:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:13:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: dylan wrote - , The Swerve is a fascinating book about the rediscovery and preservation of Lucretius's masterful Epicurean poem. I second that recommendation bill w On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 3:03 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > For those interested, Sam Harris, has thought a lot about this topic. He > doesn't believe in free will and has a similar attitude to John. His book > Free Will is a start, but it permeates all of his thought. > > For those who want a non-scientifc way out of this conundrum, read > Lucretius's De Rerum Natura. He posits a swerve at the atomic level > (Greek/Roman atoms, not ours), that allows for free will. > > As an aside, The Swerve is a fascinating book about the rediscovery and > preservation of Lucretius's masterful Epicurean poem. > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 3:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. >>> No motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim >>> of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. * >>> >> >> Sure they can. The only reason to hold anyone accountable for doing a >> bad thing is to prevent more bad things from happening in the future. >> That's justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for >> the joy of watching him suffer is vengeance. The threat of punishment is >> just one more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting >> other people, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance. >> >> John K Clark >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 20:15:46 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 15:15:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: SR Ballard wrote - *People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. * *This is assuming no free will, I suppose. Otherwise it's nonsense. bill w* On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No >> motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of >> outside forces and cannot be held accountable. * >> > > Sure they can. The only reason to hold anyone accountable for doing a bad > thing is to prevent more bad things from happening in the future. That's > justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for the joy > of watching him suffer is vengeance. The threat of punishment is just one > more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting other > people, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance. > > John K Clark > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sun Aug 16 21:13:20 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:13:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dylan: Essentially, God--whatever that is--makes every choice at the beginning of the universe experiment. These may not be the choices of what does Dave eat for breakfast on Sunday morning but instead stuff like values of the fine structure constant and the geometries of special unitary groups. I find it very hard to believe in individual free will, but I still believe that my actions are part of a specific experiment that contributes to the knowledge base of the universe. In a sense I don't believe that God is implicitly omniscient but rather that said omniscience comes from the actual structure of reality. Sort of like Jorge Luis Borges' infinite hexagonal library (the name of which I forget.) God only has knowledge of what the being named me does because the knowledge of my doing of things that a being named me does is completely immanent within said being (me) and its doings. The '-science' is right here, so to speak. And I think it is literally science in the sense that all universes are experiments. For what purpose? Entertainment perhaps (cf. Hindu concept of Lila or divine play) or maybe knowledge gathering from a super-reality. Which would also have a super-reality gathering knowledge on it through similar experiments. I'm a believer in turtles all the way down, I simply don't see any other way it could work out. There is no final heaven On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 11:02 Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >> >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no >>>> room for free will. >>>> >>> >>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 07:08:57 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:08:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 6:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:37 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: > >>> >> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's random) >> >> >> > I question this point (aka it?s random). What if the cause is hidden to players in our universe > > > If something caused you to do X rather than Y then you're a deterministic machine regardless of whether you know what the cause was or not. Not if I am part of that something. Perhaps we exist in both this reality and a "beyond" behind a Turing Oracle interface (see e.g. Physical (A)Causality by Karl Svozil) and our free will originates in the beyond. Perhaps... (other ideas that have been proposed...) So like it or not there are only two possibilities, you're either a roulette wheel or a cuckoo clock. The idea of free will is not wrong, the idea of free will is worse than wrong, it's gibberish. > > Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is violated, therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays now and not an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those hidden variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very hard for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so many things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything before we understood anything. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 08:33:24 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:33:24 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 00:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike > Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. > Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a > quasi-Everettian framework. > There are various definitions of ?free will? but if you use the incompatibilist one, requiring that our actions be undetermined, Many Worlds still allows for that because there is true randomness from the first person perspective due to the impossibility of self-locating. Having said that, we would not be able to function, or even survive outside of a nursing home, if to a significant extent our actions were undetermined. On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 13:03, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 6:01 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> *> I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any >>> interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more than >>> one but not all Everett worlds are real?* >>> >> >> The great advantage of Everett's Quantum interpretation is the simplicity >> of its assumptions, it says everything including conscious observers obey >> the exact same laws of physics and evolve according to the purely >> deterministic Schrodinger wave equation, all other quantum interpretations >> stick in a whole bunch of additional ifs, buts and howevers at that point. >> If some of the worlds allowed by Schrodinger are real and others are not then >> additional rules and assumptions would be needed and that simplicity >> would be destroyed. And there is no reason needed to stick in those >> additional assumptions to explain experimental results. Somebody said >> Everett is cheap with assumptions but expensive in universes, maybe so >> but I think an idea that starts with simplicity but produces great >> complexity is a sign of a good theory, Darwin's theory would be an example. >> You should always get more out of a theory than you put in or it has no >> point. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 08:37:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:37:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 1:03 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > The great advantage of Everett's Quantum interpretation is the simplicity of its assumptions, it says everything including conscious observers obey the exact same laws of physics and evolve according to the purely deterministic Schrodinger wave equation, all other quantum interpretations stick in a whole bunch of additional ifs, buts and howevers at that point. If some of the worlds allowed by Schrodinger are real and others are not then additional rules and assumptions would be needed and that simplicity would be destroyed. And there is no reason needed to stick in those additional assumptions to explain experimental results. Somebody said Everett is cheap with assumptions but expensive in universes, maybe so but I think an idea that starts with simplicity but produces great complexity is a sign of a good theory, Darwin's theory would be an example. You should always get more out of a theory than you put in or it has no point. > I admit that this is what gives Everett's interpretation its unique sober elegance. I have always been an Everett fan. One counterpoint is: Everett assumes that quantum mechanics as we know it today is the final word. But I would be surprised if a theory developed by us monkeys in the 20th and 21st century turns out to be the final word. Perhaps there is something more to be found, and perhaps that something will open the door to free will. I suspect that (as Dirac and others hoped) quantum physics will be "explained" by some new nonlocal theory with strongly chaotic dynamics, which will link unpredictability in-practice with uncomputability in-principle. In the meantime, Everett worlds are currently understood as a classical approximation to one underlying quantum world. Decoherence theory shows that interference terms become small and therefore quantum amplitudes become *almost* classical probabilities, but isn't *almost* an important caveat? What is the role of residual interference terms? I'm currently re-reading David Deutsch's two books and related papers. Also Sean Carrol's last book Something Deeply Hidden. Then I'm studying David Wallace's The Emergent Multiverse (more technical but VERY clear and good). Then I plan to study decoherent/consistent history theories. From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 08:41:00 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:41:00 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 00:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a quasi-Everettian framework. > > > There are various definitions of ?free will? but if you use the incompatibilist one, requiring that our actions be undetermined, Many Worlds still allows for that because there is true randomness from the first person perspective due to the impossibility of self-locating. Having said that, we would not be able to function, or even survive outside of a nursing home, if to a significant extent our actions were undetermined. > Good point. I have never understood compatibilist free will. It seems to me that if I am an automaton with a delusion of being a free agent, I am still an automaton. From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 08:41:03 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:41:03 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 01:43, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 17:31, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Free will is a big bias. If some theory seems to take it away, we may >> reject it despite good data supporting it. Ergo, let's put the concept >> aside, because it is a negative bias, and get on with finding out just >> how things work in the crazy world (esp. crazy in quantum). bill w >> > > To me, free will is a basic (THE basic) experimental fact. I?m more > certain of my free will than of the sun rising tomorrow). Science should > explain our experience to at least some degree, not deny it. I like the > elegance of Everett?s idea, but I search ways to make it more compatible > with free will. > It?s not clear what you mean by ?free will?. There are various contradictory definitions. The most common definition among modern philosophers is compatibilism, which holds that we act freely if we do so according to our preferences and in the absence of coercion, even though everything may be determined. >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:03 AM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I understand this concept, care to elaborate? >>> >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 10:57 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> There is a third option which I think is related to what Giulio is >>>> suggesting: the volition would take place at the beginning of the universe >>>> and apply to everything within, so the universe would be 'chosen' freely >>>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:20 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 10:05 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Others dislike Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves >>>>>> no room for free will. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is no room for free will with any interpretation of quantum >>>>> mechanics, or in classical mechanics, or in anything, because the idea of >>>>> free will just makes no sense. Something either happens because of cause >>>>> and effect or it doesn't happen because of cause-and-effect (aka it's >>>>> random) and free will fans would not be happy with either. And so I fear >>>>> free will fans are destined to be unhappy. >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> >>>> >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> >>>> >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> >>> >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >>> >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 08:46:58 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 18:46:58 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 04:02, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No > motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of > outside forces and cannot be held accountable. > > Murderers were unable not to murder and therefore should not be punished. > That?s a load of bull. > The type of free will that is wrong is incompatibilism, which holds that our actions cannot be free if they are determined by prior events. Most modern philosophers do not define free will this way, because it?s silly and also because our actions are in fact effectively determined. And moral and legal responsibility REQUIRE that our actions are determined. SR Ballard > > On Aug 16, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On 2020. Aug 16., Sun at 18:43, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020, 12:24 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> Incidentally, we know from experiment that Bell's Inequality is >>> violated, therefore we know for a fact that if an atom of Uranium decays >>> now and not an hour or a century from now because of hidden variables those >>> hidden variables can't be local. But if the universe is not local it's very >>> hard for me to understand why we've been so successful at explaining so >>> many things about it, it seems to me we would have to understand everything >>> before we understood anything. >>> >>> John K Clark >>> >> >> John- >> >> Doesn't the fact that quantum effects are not a factor at a relatively >> small size of matter explain why we are able to under as much as we have >> been able to about the universe (classical physics, chemistry, >> spectrography, even relativity)? >> >> I feel like once we get down to concepts like entanglement, it continues >> to point to a very fundamental lack of understanding of what quantum >> effects actually are showing us. For me, non-local effects remain one of >> the more baffling aspects of quantum mechanics, although the entire theory >> would be hard to believe in any interpretation of it if we didn't have >> experimental evidence of it. >> >> The idea of needing an observer to collapse a wave has always bothered >> me, but I also don't like the idea that the many world's hypothesis seems >> very hard to test. >> >> Are there any good recent books presenting the latest quantum theory that >> are non-mathematician friendly, yet still scratch the surface? >> >> > Sean Carroll?s last book Something Deeply Hidden is good. Carroll is an > Everettian. > > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> extropy-chat mailing list >> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 09:13:18 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 19:13:18 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 18:52, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 00:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > >> Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike > Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. > Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a > quasi-Everettian framework. > > > > > > There are various definitions of ?free will? but if you use the > incompatibilist one, requiring that our actions be undetermined, Many > Worlds still allows for that because there is true randomness from the > first person perspective due to the impossibility of self-locating. Having > said that, we would not be able to function, or even survive outside of a > nursing home, if to a significant extent our actions were undetermined. > > > > Good point. I have never understood compatibilist free will. It seems > to me that if I am an automaton with a delusion of being a free agent, > I am still an automaton. > Compatibilists say that you act freely if your actions are determined by your preferences, and you do not act freely if your actions are determined by someone coercing you or by a mental illness. This is the definition of what it means to act freely used by most people; for example, it is the definition used in courts, and it is put to the test many times a day around the world. Incompatibilists add to the above that you cannot act freely if your actions are determined. What they can't explain is how it would be possible to function if your actions were not determined. It might not matter much if you were choosing a flavour of ice cream, but it would quickly kill you if you were trying to cross the road, for example. -- Stathis Papaioannou Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 09:25:02 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 11:25:02 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 18:52, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >> wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 00:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike >> Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. >> Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a >> quasi-Everettian framework. >> > >> > >> > There are various definitions of ?free will? but if you use the >> incompatibilist one, requiring that our actions be undetermined, Many >> Worlds still allows for that because there is true randomness from the >> first person perspective due to the impossibility of self-locating. Having >> said that, we would not be able to function, or even survive outside of a >> nursing home, if to a significant extent our actions were undetermined. >> > >> >> Good point. I have never understood compatibilist free will. It seems >> to me that if I am an automaton with a delusion of being a free agent, >> I am still an automaton. >> > > Compatibilists say that you act freely if your actions are determined by > your preferences, and you do not act freely if your actions are determined > by someone coercing you or by a mental illness. This is the definition of > what it means to act freely used by most people; for example, it is the > definition used in courts, and it is put to the test many times a day > around the world. > > Incompatibilists add to the above that you cannot act freely if your > actions are determined. What they can't explain is how it would be possible > to function if your actions were not determined. It might not matter much > if you were choosing a flavour of ice cream, but it would quickly kill you > if you were trying to cross the road, for example. > Not predetermined does not necessarily mean random. I claim that I CAN choose a flavor of ice cream or when to cross the road independently of the present and past states of the universe. Of course, since I want to stay alive, I would take the state of the world into account in deciding when I want to cross the road. In Everett's terms, the measure of the region of the multiverse where I cross the road carelessly and get killed is small. > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-9036971787508228238_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 09:57:54 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 19:57:54 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 19:26, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:14 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 18:52, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 10:35 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 00:04, Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Thanks John. Yours is the standard Everettian answer. Others dislike >>> Everett?s fully deterministic QM because it leaves no room for free will. >>> Some kind of post-decoherence selection could allow for free will in a >>> quasi-Everettian framework. >>> > >>> > >>> > There are various definitions of ?free will? but if you use the >>> incompatibilist one, requiring that our actions be undetermined, Many >>> Worlds still allows for that because there is true randomness from the >>> first person perspective due to the impossibility of self-locating. Having >>> said that, we would not be able to function, or even survive outside of a >>> nursing home, if to a significant extent our actions were undetermined. >>> > >>> >>> Good point. I have never understood compatibilist free will. It seems >>> to me that if I am an automaton with a delusion of being a free agent, >>> I am still an automaton. >>> >> >> > Compatibilists say that you act freely if your actions are determined by >> your preferences, and you do not act freely if your actions are determined >> by someone coercing you or by a mental illness. This is the definition of >> what it means to act freely used by most people; for example, it is the >> definition used in courts, and it is put to the test many times a day >> around the world. >> >> Incompatibilists add to the above that you cannot act freely if your >> actions are determined. What they can't explain is how it would be possible >> to function if your actions were not determined. It might not matter much >> if you were choosing a flavour of ice cream, but it would quickly kill you >> if you were trying to cross the road, for example. >> > > Not predetermined does not necessarily mean random. I claim that I CAN > choose a flavor of ice cream or when to cross the road independently of the > present and past states of the universe. Of course, since I want to stay > alive, I would take the state of the world into account in deciding when I > want to cross the road. In Everett's terms, the measure of the region of > the multiverse where I cross the road carelessly and get killed is small. > A determined event is one that is fixed due to prior events, such that if the prior events occur the determined event necessarily occurs. An undetermined event is one that is not fixed due to prior events, such that if the prior events occur the undetermined event may or may not occur. Suppose you want to cross the road, but you see cars coming which you think would hit you, and you don't want the cars to hit you. Normally, you would delay crossing until the cars have passed. You would do this every time given the circumstances, so your action is determined. If your action were not determined, sometimes you would cross the road under these circumstances and sometimes you would not. You would not survive for long if you had this sort of "free will". Of course, you could cross the road anyway if there were cars coming, perhaps because you thought you could outrun the cars, or you were suicidal. But then you would be crossing under DIFFERENT circumstances, which is consistent with determinism. If your actions were not determined you would cross under the EXACTLY THE SAME circumstances: you see cars coming which you think would hit you, and you don't want the cars to hit you. You would be crossing for no reason, not even a bad reason. You would not survive for long if this is how you made your decisions even some of the time. -- Stathis Papaioannou Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 11:38:49 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 07:38:49 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 3:11 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> If something caused you to do X rather than Y then you're a >> deterministic machine regardless of whether you know what the cause was or >> not. > > *> Not if I am part of that something. * I don't know what that means. You either did what you did for a reason or you did what you did for no reason; I don't pretend that's a profound statement but it's undoubtedly true. If you acted as you did for no reason then most wouldconsider that to be a bad thing, we would say you were being un- reasonable. *> Perhaps we exist in both this reality and a "beyond" behind a Turing > Oracle interface (see e.g.Physical (A)Causality by Karl Svozil) and our > free will originates in the beyond. * The beyond? I think it might be wise to explain what in the world is meant by the term "free will" before you present a theory concerning its origin. Other than a noise made by the mouth I know of only one definition of "free will" that isn't complete gibberish, and almost nobody uses it; free will is the inability to know for certain what we will do next before we do it. A coin doesn't know which way it will fall until it falls, and a calculator doesn't know how much 42 times 57 is before it's finished making the calculation. But for some reason not many want to grant this mysterious property called "free will" to a coin or a calculator. So we're back to square one and the question remains, forget about where it came from what does "free will" even mean? I don't demand a rigorous mathematical definition, I'd be happy with just a general idea, a hint of what we're talking about that is not full of self contradictions. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:13:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:13:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 12:44 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The idea of needing an observer to collapse a wave has always bothered > me, but I also don't like the idea that the many world's hypothesis seems > very hard to test. * > The Many Worlds theory makes lots of predictions that have been confirmed by experiment, every quantum experiment ever performed is in this category, although I grant you it makes other predictions that haven't been experimentally confirmed. Many Worlds Is bare-bones quantum mechanics stripped of all extraneous bells and whistles. The heart of the idea Is simply that the Schrodinger Wave Equation means what it says, nobody just decided to stick in a whole bunch of extra universes, they were just a natural consequence of the mathematics; other quantum interpretations had to conjure up additional assumptions and mathematical gunk to get rid of those extra universes. Occam's razor says all that gunk is not needed. *> Are there any good recent books presenting the latest quantum theory > that are non-mathematician friendly, yet still scratch the surface?* > I would very highly recommend Sean Carroll's new book "Something Deeply Hidden", the man writes very clearly. Something Deeply Hidden John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:32:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:32:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:59 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> It?s not clear what you mean by ?free will?. * It's never clear what anybody means by "free will". > *> There are various contradictory definitions. The most common definition > among modern philosophers is compatibilism, which holds that we act freely > if we do so according to our preferences and in the absence of coercion,* There was a reason I decided to watch a movie rather than go to the beach and I'm a cuckoo clock, or there was no reason for my decision and I'm a roulette wheel. And we're always subject to coercion, I may want to jump over the moon but gravity and the lack of energy in the muscles of my legs conspire to prevent my desire from being fulfilled. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 12:48:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:48:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 5:27 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Not predetermined does not necessarily mean random. * Of course it does! > *I claim that I CAN choose a flavor of ice cream or when to cross the > road independently of the present and past states of the universe. * You either chose to cross the road to get to the other side or you didn't, if you didn't then you made your decision for no reason, a.k.a. it was random. Something happening for no reason is after all what "random" means. *> Of course, since I want to stay alive, I would take the state of the > world into account in deciding when I want to cross the road. * And you want to stay alive because of your genes or because of your environmental upbringing or for no reason whatsoever. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 13:06:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 06:06:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009c01d67497$462a2860$d27e7920$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >? I may want to jump over the moon but gravity and the lack of energy in the muscles of my legs conspire to prevent my desire from being fulfilled?John K Clark John you and I, along with several others here, have already jumped over the moon hundreds of times, between 24 December 1968 and 16 December 1972. From the point of view of the Apollo astronauts, every person (and cow) living on earth jumped over the moon. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:20:20 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 23:20:20 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 22:35, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 4:59 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> It?s not clear what you mean by ?free will?. * > > > It's never clear what anybody means by "free will". > > >> *> There are various contradictory definitions. The most common >> definition among modern philosophers is compatibilism, which holds that we >> act freely if we do so according to our preferences and in the absence of >> coercion,* > > > There was a reason I decided to watch a movie rather than go to the beach > and I'm a cuckoo clock, or there was no reason for my decision and I'm a > roulette wheel. And we're always subject to coercion, I may want to jump > over the moon but gravity and the lack of energy in the muscles of my legs > conspire to prevent my desire from being fulfilled. > The compatibilist definition of ?free will? is essentially what laypeople mean when they say ?he did it of his own free will?: he wanted to do it, he knew what he was doing, nobody forced him to do it. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 13:29:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:29:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 9:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The compatibilist definition of ?free will? is essentially what > laypeople mean when they say ?he did it of his own free will?: he wanted to > do it,* > Was there a reason he wanted to do it? If there was then he's a cuckoo clock, if there wasn't then he's a roulette wheel. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 14:58:43 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 00:58:43 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 23:30, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 9:23 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> The compatibilist definition of ?free will? is essentially what >> laypeople mean when they say ?he did it of his own free will?: he wanted to >> do it,* >> > > Was there a reason he wanted to do it? If there was then he's a cuckoo > clock, if there wasn't then he's a roulette wheel. > All actions are determined, but the ones that are said to be done freely are determined by different factors from the ones that are said to be done accidentally or under duress. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:39:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:39:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That being why I wrote ?if free will is wrong?, that is, if it doesn?t exist. SR Ballard > On Aug 16, 2020, at 3:15 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > SR Ballard wrote - People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. > This is assuming no free will, I suppose. Otherwise it's nonsense. bill w > >> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:50 PM John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> > I?m sorry but if free will is wrong then there is no crime or guilt. No motivation. People cannot change themselves, they are fully at the whim of outside forces and cannot be held accountable. >> >> Sure they can. The only reason to hold anyone accountable for doing a bad thing is to prevent more bad things from happening in the future. That's justice, doing more than that, making an evil doer suffer just for the joy of watching him suffer is vengeance. The threat of punishment is just one more outside force pushing people in the direction of not hurting other people, and I like that direction. I don't like vengeance. >> >> John K Clark >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 15:54:12 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 10:54:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think ?free will? is a bit like Pascal?s Wager. If free will is real and you think it is real, then you will see yourself as a free agent, and take responsibility for yourself and your actions, intentionally working to better things. You will put murderers in jail. If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to prevent. If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your actions. The chain of cause and effect completely controls every aspect of your existence, you cannot make any real change in the world. With a good enough computer (and a good enough measure of initial conditions) you could model every single part of the universe and tell me exactly what I will have for breakfast on 17 Jan 2035. Murderers will be put in prison or not, based completely on initial conditions. So if free will does exist and you don?t believe in it, you introduce negatives. If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes nothing, and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own ?agency?, so it?s pointless to try to change my mind. So believing that I have meaningful control is either essential to being a good member of society, or absolutely unimportant. Believing I do not have meaningful control is actively negative, or absolutely unimportant. SR Ballard From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:14:24 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:14:24 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 01:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think ?free will? is a bit like Pascal?s Wager. > > > > If free will is real and you think it is real, then you will see yourself > as a free agent, and take responsibility for yourself and your actions, > intentionally working to better things. You will put murderers in jail. > > > > If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse all > manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be avoided. > You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because from > your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone was > something they would be completely unable to prevent. > > > > If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your > actions. The chain of cause and effect completely controls every aspect of > your existence, you cannot make any real change in the world. With a good > enough computer (and a good enough measure of initial conditions) you could > model every single part of the universe and tell me exactly what I will > have for breakfast on 17 Jan 2035. Murderers will be put in prison or not, > based completely on initial conditions. > > > > So if free will does exist and you don?t believe in it, you introduce > negatives. > > > > If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes nothing, > and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own ?agency?, > so it?s pointless to try to change my mind. > > > > So believing that I have meaningful control is either essential to being a > good member of society, or absolutely unimportant. > > > > Believing I do not have meaningful control is actively negative, or > absolutely unimportant. You can *only* have control over your actions if they are determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on, which are acquired through experience and encoded in your brain. If your actions were not determined it would mean that they happened for no reason at all, not even a bad reason. If you had this sort of ?free will? you would be unable to function and would die. Criminal behaviour would be the least of your problems. People who worry that they could not be free if their actions were determined often have not considered what the alternative would mean. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 16:41:19 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 11:41:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> In that case going along with my preferences (eating cake) or going against my preferences (going for a jog) is an act of my will. One thing that is not a choice is having a chemical imbalance. But I can exercise my will to take medicine to treat it. I don?t understand how I can only have free will when I am unable to make meaningful choices. Please explain. I will try to say what you said in different words: > You can *only* have control over your actions if they Free will only exists if > are determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on, Your actions are controlled by your knowledge > which are acquired through experience and encoded in your brain. Which you get by doing things. > If your actions were not determined If your actions were not controlled > it would mean that they happened for no reason at all, It would mean they were random > not even a bad reason. If you had this sort of ?free will? you would be unable to function and would die. If your choices are random you would die. > Criminal behaviour would be the least of your problems. > > People who worry that they could not be free if their actions were determined often have not considered what the alternative would mean. Free will is the ability to choose. Do I want cake or pie? Will I take the train or will I drive? Will I cross the road now or after this car passes. My actions are not controlled by my preferences and knowledge, I choose my actions by taking into account my preferences and knowledge. Every situation you will be in will always be different because you have had different experiences prior to that repetition of the situation. ?A man can never cross the same river twice.? Both the man and the river are different. SR Ballard > On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 01:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> I think ?free will? is a bit like Pascal?s Wager. >> >> >> >> If free will is real and you think it is real, then you will see yourself as a free agent, and take responsibility for yourself and your actions, intentionally working to better things. You will put murderers in jail. >> >> >> >> If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to prevent. >> >> >> >> If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your actions. The chain of cause and effect completely controls every aspect of your existence, you cannot make any real change in the world. With a good enough computer (and a good enough measure of initial conditions) you could model every single part of the universe and tell me exactly what I will have for breakfast on 17 Jan 2035. Murderers will be put in prison or not, based completely on initial conditions. >> >> >> >> So if free will does exist and you don?t believe in it, you introduce negatives. >> >> >> >> If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes nothing, and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own ?agency?, so it?s pointless to try to change my mind. >> >> >> >> So believing that I have meaningful control is either essential to being a good member of society, or absolutely unimportant. >> >> >> >> Believing I do not have meaningful control is actively negative, or absolutely unimportant. > > You can *only* have control over your actions if they are determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on, which are acquired through experience and encoded in your brain. If your actions were not determined it would mean that they happened for no reason at all, not even a bad reason. If you had this sort of ?free will? you would be unable to function and would die. Criminal behaviour would be the least of your problems. > > People who worry that they could not be free if their actions were determined often have not considered what the alternative would mean. > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 17:15:17 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 03:15:17 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 02:42, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > In that case going along with my preferences (eating cake) or going > against my preferences (going for a jog) is an act of my will. > There are always competing considerations and your preference is determined by weighing up the pros and cons of each option. One thing that is not a choice is having a chemical imbalance. But I can > exercise my will to take medicine to treat it. > > I don?t understand how I can only have free will when I am unable to make > meaningful choices. Please explain. > > I will try to say what you said in different words: > > You can *only* have control over your actions if they > > > Free will only exists if > > are determined by your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so > on, > > > Your actions are controlled by your knowledge > > which are acquired through experience and encoded in your brain. > > > Which you get by doing things. > > If your actions were not determined > > > If your actions were not controlled > > it would mean that they happened for no reason at all, > > > It would mean they were random > > not even a bad reason. If you had this sort of ?free will? you would be > unable to function and would die. > > > If your choices are random you would die. > > Criminal behaviour would be the least of your problems. > > People who worry that they could not be free if their actions were > determined often have not considered what the alternative would mean. > > > Free will is the ability to choose. Do I want cake or pie? Will I take the > train or will I drive? Will I cross the road now or after this car passes. > > My actions are not controlled by my preferences and knowledge, I choose > my actions by taking into account my preferences and knowledge. > Choosing your actions by taking into account your preferences, knowledge, values, an annoying mosquito, the wind on your left cheek, etc. means that your actions are determined by these factors. Determined means fixed: given these exact factors, your actions would be the same. You are concerned that if your actions are fixed they cannot be free, but it would be a worse problem if they were not fixed, because then they would be random. Every situation you will be in will always be different because you have > had different experiences prior to that repetition of the situation. > > ?A man can never cross the same river twice.? Both the man and the river > are different. > SR Ballard > > On Aug 17, 2020, at 11:14 AM, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 01:55, SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I think ?free will? is a bit like Pascal?s Wager. >> >> >> >> If free will is real and you think it is real, then you will see yourself >> as a free agent, and take responsibility for yourself and your actions, >> intentionally working to better things. You will put murderers in jail. >> >> >> >> If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse all >> manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be avoided. >> You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because from >> your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone was >> something they would be completely unable to prevent. >> >> >> >> If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your >> actions. The chain of cause and effect completely controls every aspect of >> your existence, you cannot make any real change in the world. With a good >> enough computer (and a good enough measure of initial conditions) you could >> model every single part of the universe and tell me exactly what I will >> have for breakfast on 17 Jan 2035. Murderers will be put in prison or not, >> based completely on initial conditions. >> >> >> >> So if free will does exist and you don?t believe in it, you introduce >> negatives. >> >> >> >> If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes nothing, >> and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own ?agency?, >> so it?s pointless to try to change my mind. >> >> >> >> So believing that I have meaningful control is either essential to being >> a good member of society, or absolutely unimportant. >> >> >> >> Believing I do not have meaningful control is actively negative, or >> absolutely unimportant. > > > You can *only* have control over your actions if they are determined by > your preferences, values, knowledge of the world and so on, which are > acquired through experience and encoded in your brain. If your actions were > not determined it would mean that they happened for no reason at all, not > even a bad reason. If you had this sort of ?free will? you would be unable > to function and would die. Criminal behaviour would be the least of your > problems. > > People who worry that they could not be free if their actions were > determined often have not considered what the alternative would mean. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:07:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:07:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:01 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> All actions are determined,* Maybe maybe not, there is no law of logic that demands every effect have a cause. > > *> but the ones that are said to be done freely are determined by > different factors from the ones that are said to be done accidentally* If all actions are determined then nothing is accidental. > or under duress. So people have free will if they are able to do what they want to do, and thus people rarely have free will. I am under the duress of gravity so I can't fly by flapping my arms although I'd like to, it sounds like it would be fun. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:15:51 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:15:51 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:43 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> That being why I wrote ?if free will is wrong?, that is, if it doesn?t > exist.* > The only thing that can be both not X and also not (not X) is gibberish; "free will" is not wrong anymore than a burp is wrong, both are just noises made with the mouth. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:49:46 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:49:46 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:56 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *If free will is real and you think it is not,* I think God is real, unless declared an integer. *> you can and will excuse all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty > because they couldn?t be avoided.* Well, I think free will is pure gibberish and yet I don't excuse all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty. And I think the insanity defense, the legal argument that murderers should be let go because they have bad genes or a bad upbringing or because of a smudge that can be seen on a MRI scan of a murderer's brain, is utterly ridiculous. Far from concluding that people are never responsible for their actions I would say people are *always* responsible for their actions. *> You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because from > your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone was > something they would be completely unable to prevent.* > Dr.Hannibal Lecter or any other prolific murder in fiction or reality wouldn't be killing anyone if he was dead, or if there were other environmental restraints that kept him from engaging in his hobby. > *If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your > actions.* Of course they do! If my belief, which is the end result of the interaction between my genes and my environment, is that I am going to be severely punished if I commit murder then I am less likely to commit murder even if I would very much want to. > > > *If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes nothing, > and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own ?agency?, > so it?s pointless to try to change my mind.* People, even murderers, change their minds all the time and they do so based on environmental factors. When conditions change people's behavior changes too. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 18:58:20 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:58:20 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:43 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> One thing that is not a choice is having a chemical imbalance.* If you're chasing me with a bloody ax I don't care if you're doing it because you have a chemical imbalance or if something else is causing you to do it, I just want you to stop and I don't want anybody else to do that to me in the future either. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 19:27:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:27:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And what if you had voices in your head saying things, urging you to do things that you would never even dream of, much less do? There is a clear history for the supposed validity of demon possession. Do you think that you would feel that those voices were yours? That the actions urged were ones you'd like to do? If we truly had free will we could turn those voices off, eh? Only drugs might do that. bill w On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 1:52 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:56 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> > > *If free will is real and you think it is not,* > > > I think God is real, unless declared an integer. > > *> you can and will excuse all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty >> because they couldn?t be avoided.* > > > Well, I think free will is pure gibberish and yet I don't excuse all manner > of immorality, sloth, and cruelty. And I think the insanity defense, the > legal argument that murderers should be let go because they have bad genes > or a bad upbringing or because of a smudge that can be seen on a MRI scan > of a murderer's brain, is utterly ridiculous. Far from concluding that > people are never responsible for their actions I would say people are > *always* responsible for their actions. > > *> You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid because >> from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. Killing someone >> was something they would be completely unable to prevent.* >> > > Dr.Hannibal Lecter or any other prolific murder in fiction or reality > wouldn't be killing anyone if he was dead, or if there were other environmental > restraints that kept him from engaging in his hobby. > > > *If free will is not real, then your belief in it does not change your >> actions.* > > > Of course they do! If my belief, which is the end result of the > interaction between my genes and my environment, is that I am going to be > severely punished if I commit murder then I am less likely to commit murder > even if I would very much want to. > > >> > >> *If free will doesn?t exist, it doesn?t matter because it changes >> nothing, and I will have whatever belief I will have regardless of my own >> ?agency?, so it?s pointless to try to change my mind.* > > > People, even murderers, change their minds all the time and they do so > based on environmental factors. When conditions change people's behavior > changes too. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 20:30:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:30:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] earthquake Message-ID: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> Felt it, 13:27 west coast. Adrian and the other locals, everyone OK? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 20:53:00 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 21:53:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] earthquake In-Reply-To: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> References: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Preliminary M3.3 Earthquake Strikes Near Milpitas By NBC Bay Area A preliminary 3.3 magnitude earthquake rattled the South Bay near Milpitas Monday, according to the USGS. The earthquake was reported at around 1:30 p.m. and it was reportedly felt in Milpitas, Sunol, Alum Rock, Fremont and San Jose. No damages have been reported. On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 21:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Felt it, 13:27 west coast. > > > > Adrian and the other locals, everyone OK? > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 21:07:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:07:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] earthquake In-Reply-To: References: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011e01d674da$5ae1fa60$10a5ef20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] earthquake >...Preliminary M3.3 Earthquake Strikes Near Milpitas By NBC Bay Area >...A preliminary 3.3 magnitude earthquake rattled the South Bay near Milpitas Monday, according to the USGS. The earthquake was reported at around 1:30 p.m. and it was reportedly felt in Milpitas, Sunol, Alum Rock, Fremont and San Jose. No damages have been reported... Sheesh, this is so crazy. Earthquakes like that one aren't that rare, possibly less common than Auld Lang Syne but more common than national elections. But something really crazy happened just yesterday: a big rainstorm in August. That is really unusual around here. For the first time since I moved west 40 years ago, I saw a real lightning storm, like the kind so very common in central Florida where I cheerfully squandered my misspent childhood. Pets were frightened, their owners terrified, religion was gotten, sins repented. Today, merely an earthquake. Pets chilled out, owners laughed and cheered, religion forgotten, new sins committed. spike On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 21:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > Felt it, 13:27 west coast. > > > > Adrian and the other locals, everyone OK? > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 21:20:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:20:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] earthquake In-Reply-To: <011e01d674da$5ae1fa60$10a5ef20$@rainier66.com> References: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> <011e01d674da$5ae1fa60$10a5ef20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <012101d674dc$41590af0$c40b20d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >.Today, merely an earthquake. Pets chilled out, owners laughed and cheered, religion forgotten, new sins committed. spike Here's a fun one for yas. That one was centered at the north end of Calaveras Reservoir, which exists because that fault is opening up a huge hole from what they tell us is a strike-slip fault. Our side of the fault (west side) is moving northwest at the speed a fingnail grows, but it isn't steady: it moves a few centimeters at a time, makes some noise, then settles down for a year or two, then on we go, north to Alaska, meet ya there in 15 million years. The Calaveras reservoir is our backup water source. It is above the valley by a few hundred meters. Back in the olden days, when it came to building roads, they took the easy path: paved alongside the existing river coming down from Calaveras Lake to the Bay. Eighteen something, let's build a dam to trap water back there, OK now we need a road, so they paved the path along the river, built the dam. Water backs up, now we have a backup water supply, hurray. However. there is one small catch of course, very small, nothing to worry about, move along citizens, nothing to see here. except that if one of those earthquakes along the Calaveras wrecks that dam, then that water does what water does so very well, flow downhill toward the sea. Right. thru. the middle of town. That would be. bad. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 66232 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 22:17:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 15:17:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid again Message-ID: <014701d674e4$3e2584a0$ba708de0$@rainier66.com> Yesterday ago I posted some data from the county on covid fatalities. In a county of about 2 million, there were three fatalities in the last coupla weeks. The new case rate is down some, but didn't really go away: we are still getting 150ish new cases per day on average, but it is really different from before, where we had maybe 200ish cases per day but a waaaaay higher fatality rate. It got me to thinking: this is a little like how I remember HIV was back in the 80s. It seemed like a lotta people caught it back then, and when they did, they would spin right on into the ground pretty quickly. I am not an expert on these matters, but I do recall there seemed to be a lot of new cases and they didn't last long. But a coupla decades later, you don't really hear much about HIV, and even those who have it seem to hang on for a long time. I had a step brother who had it 11 yrs before it finally took him down, and most of that time he had no visible symptoms. Now we see covid, a kind of similar pattern perhaps. The new case rate isn't going down much, but the fatality rate is, almost everywhere. This causes me to speculate: perhaps the most susceptible people caught it, right up front, and the most likely to perish perished soon afterwards. On the other hand, now we see cases like my second cousin in law, who is 76, who came down with it, but his symptoms were never all that severe. He had a low-grade fever for a coupla weeks, fatigue, tested positive, not much they could do for him really, a week later he was OK. His bride is 72, same house, never caught it, never tested positive for antibodies or virus. .hmmmm. In any case, as of about today. it has been long enough since the start of the Sturgis rally, if that is a super-spreader event (how the heck could it not be?) we will see a wave of positive cases. Recall there are estimated a quarter million biker proles at that rally last week, starting around 10 or 11 days ago. If we don't see the impact of that, I don't understand how this thing spreads. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Mon Aug 17 23:13:51 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 09:13:51 +1000 Subject: [ExI] covid again In-Reply-To: <014701d674e4$3e2584a0$ba708de0$@rainier66.com> References: <014701d674e4$3e2584a0$ba708de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 08:19, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Yesterday ago I posted some data from the county on covid fatalities. In > a county of about 2 million, there were three fatalities in the last coupla > weeks. > > > > The new case rate is down some, but didn?t really go away: we are still > getting 150ish new cases per day on average, but it is really different > from before, where we had maybe 200ish cases per day but a waaaaay higher > fatality rate. > > > > It got me to thinking: this is a little like how I remember HIV was back > in the 80s. It seemed like a lotta people caught it back then, and when > they did, they would spin right on into the ground pretty quickly. I am > not an expert on these matters, but I do recall there seemed to be a lot of > new cases and they didn?t last long. > > > > But a coupla decades later, you don?t really hear much about HIV, and even > those who have it seem to hang on for a long time. I had a step brother > who had it 11 yrs before it finally took him down, and most of that time he > had no visible symptoms. > > > > Now we see covid, a kind of similar pattern perhaps. The new case rate > isn?t going down much, but the fatality rate is, almost everywhere. > > > > This causes me to speculate: perhaps the most susceptible people caught > it, right up front, and the most likely to perish perished soon > afterwards. > > > > On the other hand, now we see cases like my second cousin in law, who is > 76, who came down with it, but his symptoms were never all that severe. He > had a low-grade fever for a coupla weeks, fatigue, tested positive, not > much they could do for him really, a week later he was OK. His bride is > 72, same house, never caught it, never tested positive for antibodies or > virus. > > > > ?hmmmm? > > > > In any case, as of about today? it has been long enough since the start of > the Sturgis rally, if that is a super-spreader event (how the heck could it > not be?) we will see a wave of positive cases. Recall there are estimated > a quarter million biker proles at that rally last week, starting around 10 > or 11 days ago. If we don?t see the impact of that, I don?t understand how > this thing spreads. > There are very effective antiviral treatments for HIV now, so it is unlikely that people who have it and are appropriately treated will die from it. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 17 23:43:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 16:43:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] covid again In-Reply-To: References: <014701d674e4$3e2584a0$ba708de0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002c01d674f0$4144a880$c3cdf980$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat In any case, as of about today? it has been long enough since the start of the Sturgis rally, if that is a super-spreader event (how the heck could it not be?) we will see a wave of positive cases. Recall there are estimated a quarter million biker proles at that rally last week, starting around 10 or 11 days ago. If we don?t see the impact of that, I don?t understand how this thing spreads. >?There are very effective antiviral treatments for HIV now, so it is unlikely that people who have it and are appropriately treated will die from it. -- Stathis Papaioannou OK cool, glad to hear that, Stathis. I am not up to speed on that topic. The latest report I can find from South Dakota published today says they have three new cases from the local university (which started last week) and one case from the Sturgis rally so far. But if they Sturgis doesn?t generate a heeeeeelllll of a lot more cases from that rally, then I profoundly don?t understand. At Black Hills State U, they are making them wear masks. But at the rally they don?t have that option: the bike crowd isn?t known for following instructions. Black Hills State U has about 4k students, the bike rally hosts perhaps 70 times that number: https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/local/state-and-regional/doh-reports-three-covid-19-cases-at-bhsu-one-from-sturgis-so-far/article_cf80d49c-e364-50bd-90bb-1099bb35770e.html I heard a university in North Carolina opened a week ago and shut back down today because of new cases. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 18 00:24:55 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 17:24:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] earthquake In-Reply-To: <011e01d674da$5ae1fa60$10a5ef20$@rainier66.com> References: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> <011e01d674da$5ae1fa60$10a5ef20$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0548496c-8235-79f3-48b6-3e7635107342@pobox.com> On 2020-8-17 14:07, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > But something really crazy happened just yesterday: a big > rainstorm in August. That is really unusual around here. For the first > time since I moved west 40 years ago, I saw a real lightning storm, like the > kind so very common in central Florida where I cheerfully squandered my > misspent childhood. I had one last summer; so thrilling! It's one of the few things I miss about Illinois. Another is mulberries. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 00:30:01 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 17:30:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] earthquake In-Reply-To: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> References: <010701d674d5$2fa7caf0$8ef760d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 1:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Felt it, 13:27 west coast. > > > > Adrian and the other locals, everyone OK? > Didn't even feel it. This is the first I'm hearing of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 04:48:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 21:48:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] smoke ring Message-ID: <000e01d6751a$cd00ceb0$67026c10$@rainier66.com> I was wondering how this smoke ring came about. They are claiming it was from lightning hitting a transformer, but I don't recall seeing lightning over in that direction, over towards Levi Stadium. Cool video however: https://youtu.be/wnryU23DH8E spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 07:23:27 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 02:23:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I doubt my depression will cause me to chase you with an ax. If I don?t take my medicine I would be far too depressed to do so. SR Ballard > On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:58 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:43 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > One thing that is not a choice is having a chemical imbalance. > > If you're chasing me with a bloody ax I don't care if you're doing it because you have a chemical imbalance or if something else is causing you to do it, I just want you to stop and I don't want anybody else to do that to me in the future either. > > John K Clark > >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 10:29:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:29:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 3:29 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And what if you had voices in your head saying things, urging you to do > things that you would never even dream of, much less do? > I don't know specifically what I would do, but it would probably be a lot of crazy stuff, possibly dangerous and criminally crazy stuff. > If we truly had free will we could turn those voices off, eh? > We don't have total control of our emotional control panel, it will be disastrous if we did, but even if we had the ability to turn the voices off you couldn't do so if you didn't first decide to turn those voices off, and if you decided to do so for a reason, if there was a cause for you to do it, then you're a cuckoo clock. And if you decided to do so for no reason then you're a roulette wheel. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 10:56:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:56:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Some good news on COVID-19 Message-ID: Scientists See Signs of Lasting Immunity to Covid-19, Even After Mild Infections John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Aug 18 12:46:29 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 05:46:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds Message-ID: <20200818054629.Horde.RsOzJDBarv2LgKq-j92t9vz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 11:43 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> That being why I wrote ?if free will is wrong?, that is, if it doesn?t >> exist.* >> > > The only thing that can be both not X and also not (not X) is gibberish; > "free will" is not wrong anymore than a burp is wrong, both are just noises > made with the mouth. The problem with free will is that it is a juxtaposition of two different but altogether real concepts: freedom and will. They are in a sense perpendicular notions. Freedom is to a certain extent a commodity in the sense that wealthy people have more options available to them. While will on the other hand is the ability to make decisions and exercise choice between various options. Will is a property of all manner of lifeforms, simple Turing machines, and perhaps even elementary particles. So for example fight-or-flight, if-then conditional-branching, or quantum states are potentially decisions made by someone or something. When either you or I measure the spins of an entangled pair of electrons from light years apart, we collapse the wave function by doing so but SOMETHING decides whether we observe the spins as up-down or down-up respectively and it certainly isn't us. You can call it random chance, but that doesn't explain the instantaneous correlation between our measurements from light years apart. Put another way, what is it about random chance that enables it to instantaneously coordinate observed quantum states from opposite ends of the universe? Now one can try to use Everett worlds to explain away the non-locality so that the two cases happened in two different universes and as such, both results are predetermined for their respective universes. But then you are left with the mystery of unitarity. That is to say, how do different universes containing the same particle in different quantum states always know how to be different from their sister universes if the universes cannot communicate with one another? Who or what is keeping track of the probabilities such that they always sum to one? In MWI, unitarity begs the question of non-locality. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 15:06:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 08:06:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005f01d67571$3286fd30$9794f790$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds >?I doubt my depression will cause me to chase you with an ax. If I don?t take my medicine I would be far too depressed to do so. SR Ballard The above comment would create a new and reversed spin on an old witticism, for it now becomes: Watch out everybody, SR is back on her meds. SR, do pardon my weak attempt at injecting a bit of levity. Our fond hope for you young lady is that you find the strength within to overcome the grim circumstances weighing on your heart. May the mourning pass, the dark clouds part, the sun shine upon your shoulders, may your spirit soar once again soon. You are among friends and kindred spirits here SR, wishing you the very best always. spike On Aug 17, 2020, at 1:58 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat > wrote: On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:43 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > One thing that is not a choice is having a chemical imbalance. If you're chasing me with a bloody ax I don't care if you're doing it because you have a chemical imbalance or if something else is causing you to do it, I just want you to stop and I don't want anybody else to do that to me in the future either. John K Clark _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 15:46:45 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 11:46:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200818054629.Horde.RsOzJDBarv2LgKq-j92t9vz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200818054629.Horde.RsOzJDBarv2LgKq-j92t9vz@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > When either you or I measure the spins of an entangled pair > of electrons from light years apart, we collapse the wave function by doing > so but SOMETHING decides whether we observe the spins as up-down or down-up* If Many Worlds is right then NOTHING decides if John Clark observes spin up or spin down because John Clark observes both, the particle John Clark is observing splits and so does John Clark. By the way, although it sounds awkward in thought experiments involving Many Worlds I often use proper nouns because personal pronouns tend to get you into trouble. In Many Worlds everything that can happen, that is to say everything the Schrodinger wave equation allows, does happen, and the English language was not really designed for that kind of discussion, so It will need a major overhaul of the way it uses pronouns once technology to make copies of individuals accurate to within a nanometer becomes common. > *You can call it random chance, but that doesn't explain the > instantaneous correlation between our measurements from light years apart.* Schrodinger's wave equation is purely deterministic and so the Multiverse must be too. If a particle that is in a spin zero state decays and I observed that one of the decay particles is spin up then I must be in a universe where it's brother particle is spin down and it makes no difference if the particle is a billion light years away because the Schrodinger wave equation forbids anything else. > *> you are left with the mystery of unitarity. That is to say, how do > different universes containing the same particle in different quantum > states always know how to be different from their sister universes if the > universes cannot communicate with one another?* The particles are correlated but they are not in communication with one another, you can't use quantum entanglement to send messages faster than light. > > > *Who or what is keeping track of the probabilities such that they always > sum to one? In MWI, unitarity begs the question of non-locality.* You're basically asking where the Born Rule came from, why is the probability of finding a particle at point X equal to the square of the absolute value of Schrodinger's wave at that point? Gleason proved in 1957 that if Schrodinger's wave is related to probability then the square of the absolute value is the only one that doesn't produce contradictions. So if you're going to have a probability rule involving a wave function it has got to be the Born Rule, the function cubed or anything else just won't do. But if Schrodinger's Equation and thus the entire Multiverse is 100% deterministic why involve probability at all? Because each individual version of me can only see a very small slice of the multiverse, until I actually observe the particle in question I am lacking vital information, I have no way of knowing if I am in the universe that has the spin up particle or the one that has spin down. Probability is necessary for predicting the behavior of something even if it's completely deterministic if you have incomplete information about it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 16:41:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 09:41:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <005f01d67571$3286fd30$9794f790$@rainier66.com> References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> <005f01d67571$3286fd30$9794f790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a401d6757e$6b730f00$42592d00$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >>?wishing you the very best always?spike >?Spike you are so sweet? You are far too kind. That gives me an idea. If we could somehow measure it objectively, create a factor, call it K sub s, we could have contests, create teams, go for records, that sorta thing (I?ll take SR, Anders Sandberg, MB, BillW, both our Bills (fine gentlemen they are?)) oh what a kick that would be. Even if the ExI team loses, I can still cash in on ad sales. Of course if we found a way to measure Ks, the yahoos would soon recognize the possibilities of the opposite, form teams, compete at the Angry Bitter Olympics. Oh wait, never mind, we already have those: national elections. Absurd, you say? Well, ja. But think of it this way: the poets and whimsical songwriters go on with the clearly erroneous notion that the heart is the seat of emotions, the brain being the seat of intellect. I have long considered it a false correlation: the brain is the seat of both. The heart doesn?t generate feelings, the brain tells the heart when to flutter, the knees when to wobble. OK then, if the brain is the seat of emotions, then a super-brain is capable of super-emotion. The smarter the person, the better as a potential lover (and alas, the more extreme potential hater.) There are practical difficulties with the notion of creating a Sweetness Olympics of course, but if we could do such a thing, this old world would be a kinder and gentler place. May it be so. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 20:04:45 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:04:45 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 6:15 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ### Well, dunno. Unless you expect cops to work for free, defunding the > police actually *is* abolishing the police, for most values of "is". > Defunding need not be complete. Partially defunding is still defunding. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 20:33:29 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 15:33:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 7:27 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It's unlikely Sweden has achieved herd immunity, The most recent studies > indicate only 20% of people in Stockholm have been exposed to the virus, > that's about the same number as those in New York and London, and most > think you need at least 70% to achieve herd immunity. Sweden has not had > significantly less economic pain than other countries, it's GDP declined by > 8.6% and yes that's less than the average for the European Union as a whole > which declined by 11.9% but it wasn't as good as some other European > countries which did impose strict lockdowns and had far fewer deaths, the > Czech Republic's GDP declined by 8.4% and Lithuania by only 5.1%. > > And Sweden suffered more non-economic biological pain from the virus than > most, they had 8,200 cases of COVID-19 per million people, Norway had > 1,780, Denmark had 2,560, the UK had 4,600, and the US had 15,400. As for > deaths per 100,000 people, Sweden had 57, Norway had 5, Denmark had 11, the > UK had 70, and the US had 50. But of course this pandemic is far from over > so it will be sometime before we know what the final butcher's bill is. > > The models that assume 70% are overly simplistic: they assume everyone is equally susceptible to infection and also that everyone is equally good at spreading the disease. If there is any heterogeneity in the population regarding either susceptibility or transmission, then the levels required for herd immunity can become drastically lower: https://judithcurry.com/2020/05/10/why-herd-immunity-to-covid-19-is-reached-much-earlier-than-thought/ Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 21:54:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 14:54:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism Message-ID: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> I have half a mind to buy this book, but would cheerfully settle for having one or more of our voracious readers voraciously read this one and summarize it: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1948647737/reasonmagazinea-20/ It's about reality vs perception. Utterly contrary to easily-available reliable data, the unwashed masses have expressed completely unfounded pessimism. These are recent results from Gallup polls: https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/308126/roundup-gallup-covid-coverage. aspx It is unclear if it would help these masses a bit were they to bathe. I would suggest these masses continue in their unhygienic ways if they wish, but study some actual data before expressing unjustifiably grim opinions. Oh dear, retract previous. I studied the site and discovered that the opinions expressed are those of the total polled population in the US, mixing the washed with the unwashed. This could be significant, in that the unwashed masses would perhaps exude offensive odors, causing greater distancing between them, lowering their risk of contagion. Same with the lower castes of India, also known as the untouchables: their wealthier counterparts (presumably known as the touchables) would run higher risks from possibly-infected patients taking advantage of their touchable status and touching them. I refuse to go to India, for fear of being identified as a touchable and having people touch me, oh mercy, I would be so squicked. But I digress. This site very clearly and credibly refutes the notion that the covid situation is getting worse: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17738 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:27:13 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 23:27:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism In-Reply-To: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> References: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 22:57, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Utterly contrary to easily-available reliable data, the unwashed masses have expressed completely unfounded pessimism. > > These are recent results from Gallup polls: > https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/308126/roundup-gallup-covid-coverage.aspx > > This site very clearly and credibly refutes the notion that the covid situation is getting worse: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ > > spike > _______________________________________________ > When the public say the covid situation is getting worse they are not just counting new cases or deaths. They are looking at jobs lost, queues at food banks, businesses closed, mask wearing, fear of going near other people, no recovery to what life used to be like, etc. Many people are struggling to survive in this new environment. No wonder they're getting depressed. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 22:31:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:31:40 -0500 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism In-Reply-To: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> References: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, buy it and send it to me. I"ll do it. I"ll put it on the top of my stack. As for the great unwashed, it's their minds that need cleaning of the filth they get from news,Tweets and all that. Bad news: when people get pessimistic they want authoritarian leaders to tell them fairy stories of fixing all the problems. When the family budget goes down down down, the whole world gets implicated in its decline. Overgeneralization again and again and again. The virus. The economy and job loss. Riots of all flavors. My favorite: credulousness. And of the wrong things! bill w On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I have half a mind to buy this book, but would cheerfully settle for > having one or more of our voracious readers voraciously read this one and > summarize it: > > > > https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1948647737/reasonmagazinea-20/ > > > > It?s about reality vs perception. > > > > Utterly contrary to easily-available reliable data, the unwashed masses > have expressed completely unfounded pessimism. > > > > These are recent results from Gallup polls: > > > > > > > > > https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/308126/roundup-gallup-covid-coverage.aspx > > > > It is unclear if it would help these masses a bit were they to bathe. I > would suggest these masses continue in their unhygienic ways if they wish, > but study some actual data before expressing unjustifiably grim opinions. > > > > Oh dear, retract previous. I studied the site and discovered that the > opinions expressed are those of the total polled population in the US, > mixing the washed with the unwashed. This could be significant, in that > the unwashed masses would perhaps exude offensive odors, causing greater > distancing between them, lowering their risk of contagion. Same with the > lower castes of India, also known as the untouchables: their wealthier > counterparts (presumably known as the touchables) would run higher risks > from possibly-infected patients taking advantage of their touchable status > and touching them. I refuse to go to India, for fear of being identified > as a touchable and having people touch me, oh mercy, I would be so > squicked. But I digress. > > > > This site very clearly and credibly refutes the notion that the covid > situation is getting worse: > > > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 17738 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 22:37:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 15:37:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism In-Reply-To: References: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001501d675b0$29853d20$7c8fb760$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 3:27 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: BillK Subject: Re: [ExI] unjustified pessimism On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 22:57, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Utterly contrary to easily-available reliable data, the unwashed masses have expressed completely unfounded pessimism. > > These are recent results from Gallup polls: > https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/308126/roundup-gallup-covid-cov > erage.aspx > > This site very clearly and credibly refutes the notion that the covid situation is getting worse: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ > > spike > _______________________________________________ > >...When the public say the covid situation is getting worse they are not just counting new cases or deaths. They are looking at jobs lost, queues at food banks, businesses closed, mask wearing, fear of going near other people, no recovery to what life used to be like, etc. Many people are struggling to survive in this new environment. No wonder they're getting depressed. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks for that insight BillK. I think you are right on, and a good reason you are first round draft pick for the ExI Empathy Olympics team. The poll didn't (and perhaps cannot) differentiate between the "covid situation" and the "response to covid situation." spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 18 23:44:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 16:44:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism In-Reply-To: References: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009201d675b9$8df87c00$a9e97400$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat As for the great unwashed, it's their minds that need cleaning of the filth they get from news,Tweets and all that?bill w BillW here?s a another take on a grim topic. This is the county covid site. Note they are cheerfully reporting data from the state site CalREDIE, but putting huge red caveats on the data for the past 5 weeks: But if you go to the CalREDIE site, POOF, all caution is cast to the wind, no caveats to be found: https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/Immunization/nCoV2019.aspx Nowhere on the site do I see anything resembling a scientific/government-esque version of PLEASE DISREGARD OUR DATA, WE SUCK. But Santa Clara county has that big red Incomplete data due to State?s CalREDIE system. Heh. In any case? the county covid fatality rate is about one a day average, OK then. They say right there on the site: Deaths provided in this dashboard do not necessarily mean that the individuals died from COVID-19. they mix WITHs with OFs, but either way, a little less than one fatality a day, two million proles, about the same risk of perishing in traffic in the US if we include motorcycles. What if? we never do find an effective vaccine? Recall that guy in Jolly Olde, I think he was BillK?s neighbor, some biggity big government sort who commented that at some point everyone is probably going to be exposed. So eventually herd immunity will take over, as it apparently did in the 2003 SARS global pandemic. As I recall, that guy was pilloried (note I am not actually claiming to know what the hell is pilloried (it is based on something we don?t really do literally anymore (but from the context I have always heard it, being pilloried is a bad thing.))) We have long relied on the assumption that we must drive the new case rate to zero, or at least way down, until we can find a vaccine, by any means. Well, sure, good luck to us, but what if BillK?s neighbor was right all along? He commented that the real goal is to keep the case rate from brutally overwhelming the medical system, so we can treat this, until herd immunity takes over. I get that! Britain knows herds: they have all those sheep over there. Not in the political sense, the actual wooly beasts as shown on one of my favorite documentaries on the topic, Shaun the Sheep: https://www.shaunthesheep.com/ If the Brits make comments about herd immunity and pillories, it carries credibility. OK so now, if these scarlet-lettered data are anywhere near accurate, Santa Clara county damn well is very gradually approaching herd immunity (the humans I meant.) We get about 150 or so new cases a day, that?s about 50k a year, or about 2 to 3 percent, herd immunity (of humans) will eventually happen, but keep in mind, the new case rate can only be an undercount (because not everyone gets tested (and some get a mild case and it goes away (and some are just naturally immune.))) The covid fatality rate can only be overcounted (because it mixes WITHs and OFs.) There is a possibility that British lad was right all along, we never find a vaccine, they wasted a perfectly good pillory on him that could have been used on Christopher Steele. In the meantime? back in the states? if we get a steady new case rate of about 200k per day, hospitals stay in business, we gradually get back to life as we have known it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 55163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Aug 19 00:00:00 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:00:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200818170000.Horde.9bJ56MOr_MJl0lpAUyHWEDQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> * > When either you or I measure the spins of an entangled pair >> of electrons from light years apart, we collapse the wave function by doing >> so but SOMETHING decides whether we observe the spins as up-down or down-up* > > > If Many Worlds is right then NOTHING decides if John Clark observes spin up > or spin down because John Clark observes both, the particle John Clark is > observing splits and so does John Clark. Yes, John, I get that. What I am asking how does the wave function, whether it is a physical wave or an abstract mathematical wave, split universes and ensure that both John Clarks see what they are supposed to see? Everett's theory simply replaces spooky action at a distance with spooky accounting at a distance. Another related question would be where does the wave function reside such that it can split universes and apportion the results properly to the different universes? > Schrodinger's wave equation is purely deterministic and so the Multiverse > must be too. If a particle that is in a spin zero state decays and I > observed that one of the decay particles is spin up then I must be in a > universe where it's brother particle is spin down and it makes no > difference if the particle is a billion light years away because the > Schrodinger wave equation forbids anything else. In physics, physical laws in the form of mathematical equations usually describe phenomena and predict the outcomes of those phenomena. In MWI, the Schrodinger equation does not seem to just predict and describe outcomes but actually seems to literally cause those outcomes since nothing physical can travel faster than light or transcend universes to cause the observed quantum states. How does math cause anything except within minds and computers? > >> *> you are left with the mystery of unitarity. That is to say, how do >> different universes containing the same particle in different quantum >> states always know how to be different from their sister universes if the >> universes cannot communicate with one another?* > > > The particles are correlated but they are not in communication with one > another, you can't use quantum entanglement to send messages faster than > light. Agreed. The particles are not in communication with each other but they do seem to be in communication with Schrodinger's equation or the wave function it describes. That is what I mean. > But if Schrodinger's Equation and thus the entire Multiverse is 100% > deterministic why involve probability at all? Because each individual version > of me can only see a very small slice of the multiverse, until I actually > observe the particle in question I am lacking vital information, I have no > way of knowing if I am in the universe that has the spin up particle or the > one that has spin down. Probability is necessary for predicting the > behavior of something even if it's completely deterministic if you have > incomplete information about it. That is fine, but who or what is it that ensures that each possible quantum state is manifested completely deterministically in its own universe? Determinism is about cause and effect. What is breathing fire into the Schrodinger equation such that it can deterministically cause different universes to manifest to the observer? Stuart LaForge From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 04:00:12 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:00:12 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200818170000.Horde.9bJ56MOr_MJl0lpAUyHWEDQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200818170000.Horde.9bJ56MOr_MJl0lpAUyHWEDQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 10:01, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Quoting John Clark: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:49 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> * > When either you or I measure the spins of an entangled pair > > >> of electrons from light years apart, we collapse the wave function by > doing > > >> so but SOMETHING decides whether we observe the spins as up-down or > down-up* > > > > > > > > > If Many Worlds is right then NOTHING decides if John Clark observes spin > up > > > or spin down because John Clark observes both, the particle John Clark is > > > observing splits and so does John Clark. > > > > Yes, John, I get that. What I am asking how does the wave function, > > whether it is a physical wave or an abstract mathematical wave, split > > universes and ensure that both John Clarks see what they are supposed > > to see? Everett's theory simply replaces spooky action at a distance > > with spooky accounting at a distance. Another related question would > > be where does the wave function reside such that it can split > > universes and apportion the results properly to the different universes? > > > > > Schrodinger's wave equation is purely deterministic and so the Multiverse > > > must be too. If a particle that is in a spin zero state decays and I > > > observed that one of the decay particles is spin up then I must be in a > > > universe where it's brother particle is spin down and it makes no > > > difference if the particle is a billion light years away because the > > > Schrodinger wave equation forbids anything else. > > > > In physics, physical laws in the form of mathematical equations > > usually describe phenomena and predict the outcomes of those > > phenomena. In MWI, the Schrodinger equation does not seem to just > > predict and describe outcomes but actually seems to literally cause > > those outcomes since nothing physical can travel faster than light or > > transcend universes to cause the observed quantum states. How does > > math cause anything except within minds and computers? > > > > > > > >> *> you are left with the mystery of unitarity. That is to say, how do > > >> different universes containing the same particle in different quantum > > >> states always know how to be different from their sister universes if > the > > >> universes cannot communicate with one another?* > > > > > > > > > The particles are correlated but they are not in communication with one > > > another, you can't use quantum entanglement to send messages faster than > > > light. > > > > Agreed. The particles are not in communication with each other but > > they do seem to be in communication with Schrodinger's equation or the > > wave function it describes. That is what I mean. > > > > > > > But if Schrodinger's Equation and thus the entire Multiverse is 100% > > > deterministic why involve probability at all? Because each individual > version > > > of me can only see a very small slice of the multiverse, until I actually > > > observe the particle in question I am lacking vital information, I have > no > > > way of knowing if I am in the universe that has the spin up particle or > the > > > one that has spin down. Probability is necessary for predicting the > > > behavior of something even if it's completely deterministic if you have > > > incomplete information about it. > > > > That is fine, but who or what is it that ensures that each possible > > quantum state is manifested completely deterministically in its own > > universe? Determinism is about cause and effect. What is breathing > > fire into the Schrodinger equation such that it can deterministically > > cause different universes to manifest to the observer? You could ask the same question about any physical theory. Equations describe reality, they don?t stand over reality with a stick to ensure that the law is obeyed. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 09:45:21 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 05:45:21 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death Message-ID: 58,220 Americans died in the entire Vietnam War of all causes not just from combat, and as of right now August 19 at 09:35 GMT 175,087 Ameracans have died of COVID-19, just over 3 times as many. And this all happened since February. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 10:38:02 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 06:38:02 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200818170000.Horde.9bJ56MOr_MJl0lpAUyHWEDQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200818170000.Horde.9bJ56MOr_MJl0lpAUyHWEDQ@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 8:02 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Everett's theory simply replaces spooky action at a distance with > spooky accounting at a distance* So what did you expect, a theory that restores your common sense notions of how the world should work? It just ain't gonna happen. Any theory that accurately describes reality at the fundamental level is going to be weird, very weird. If Many Worlds isn't true then something even spookier must be. > *Agreed. The particles are not in communication with each other but they > do seem to be in communication with Schrodinger's equation * That's not just true of Everett's interpretation, that's true of EVERY interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, if they weren't consistent with Schrodinger's equation then they wouldn't match experimental results and would have to be rejected. And by the way, particles also seem to be in "communication" with Newtons formula F=MA. > *Another related question would be where does the wave function reside* Infinite-dimensional Hilbert Space. * How does math cause anything except within minds and computers?* Mathematics may be the language that best describes physics but mathematics is not physics. And the English word "cow" describes a bovine that is female, but "cow" is not a cow, the word "cow" can not give you milk. And This is not a pipe > > *What is breathing fire into the Schrodinger equation* Nothing is breathing fire into Schrodinger's equation, and nothing is breathing fire into the English word "cow" either, that's why "cow" can't even say Moo. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 10:57:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 06:57:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] unjustified pessimism In-Reply-To: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> References: <014f01d675aa$3846ea30$a8d4be90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 5:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > This site very clearly and credibly refutes the notion that the covid > situation is getting worse: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ According to them yesterday August 18 In the middle of summer when virus epidemics are at their minimum 1358 Americans died of COVID-19 and 43,999 new cases were reported. Somebody, I forget his name, predicted the virus would just go away "like magic" by April when things started to get warm. It didn't happen. So I don't think the belief that the pandemic is getting worse is all that irrational. I dread the fall and winter. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 11:08:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:08:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cory Massimino on advocating police abolition In-Reply-To: References: <23C853C8-9D21-4480-98D6-700154C40D36@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:07 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Defunding need not be complete. Partially defunding is still defunding.* > Why are we even talking about this? Regardless of who wins the presidential election nobody is going to be abolishing the police! Although I grant you that one of the candidates may be less than enthusiastic about encouraging people to spend $1 million on yet another police armored personnel carrier and figure that money would increase national security more if it were spent in other ways. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 12:55:43 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:55:43 -0400 Subject: [ExI] World's Largest Chip Message-ID: A company called "Cerebra" has made the world's largest Microprocessor chip, it contains 850,000 cores and 2.6 *Trillion* transistors; but it's not going in a laptop anytime soon, it uses 15 KW of power. World's Largest Chip with 2.6 Trillion 7nm Transistors and 850,000 Cores John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 19 13:11:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 06:11:35 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death 58,220 Americans died in the entire Vietnam War of all causes not just from combat, and as of right now August 19 at 09:35 GMT 175,087 Ameracans have died of COVID-19, just over 3 times as many. And this all happened since February. John K Clark John is interested in the C/V ratio, which just passed 3 for the USA: 175087/58220 = 3. We can calculate the covid/Vietnam fatality ratio for other countries as well. South Korea did horribly, with their 5099/306 = 50 ratio. Using numbers from Wiki on the Vietnam fatalities and Worldometer for covid and about 1 significant digit is more than sufficient, we find: 8297/426, looks like about approaching 20 for Australia. Thailand: 351/58 is about 9. New Zealand: 37/22 not even 2. Philippines: 2795/9 nearly 300, oh mercy. Taiwan: 7 /25 less than a third. China: 4634/1446 getting close to 3, so they are about even with the USA. We were told they had conquered this virus. They are doing well with their C/V but aren?t doing as well as the USA. Soviet Union, 16 /15989 for a C/V of about 1000. The British have the worst C/V on the planet. Wiki says they lost one guy in Vietnam. That one guy was the most unlucky lad in England. One guy in Vietnam. In any case, the British C/V is 41381/1 is about 40000 if expressed in single significant digit, which may be more significant digits than this ratio justifies. But now I see why John, who is American, is always reporting the ratio of covid deaths over Vietnam war deaths: it makes the USA look great. It is a form of flag waving. John does love his government after all. Who knew? New Zealand is ahead of the world in that ratio, with USA for the silver and China takes the bronze. Down at the bottom is Philippines, Soviet Union, and UK, in the Covid/Vietnam fatality olympics. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 19 14:53:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:53:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death In-Reply-To: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004701d67638$80594af0$810be0d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >>?Down at the bottom is Philippines, Soviet Union, and UK, in the Covid/Vietnam fatality olympics? spike >? That C/V ratio is the weirdest contest I ever heard of? In all modesty I must admit that it was John who proposed and has been promoting the C/V event. However I dispute your notion. I myself have proposed and promoted weirder contests than that one. My modesty contest is as weird as C/V, as I demonstrate my own championship-class modesty with how I started out this modest commentary. But I am in no position to judge, being one of the formidable contestants in proposing weird contests. I am in it to win it. Go for the gold. We need a panel of judges to adjudicate a weirdest contest contest. I would enter the weirdest contest contest notion as a competitor in the weirdest contest contest. I know it can beat John?s relatively sane Covid/Vietnam contest. If the weirdest contest contest chose itself as the winner of itself, that would be so weird it would beat itself. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 15:20:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:20:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death In-Reply-To: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> References: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> But now I see why John, who is American, is always reporting the ratio > of covid deaths over Vietnam war deaths: it makes the USA look great. It > is a form of flag waving. John does love his government after all. Who > knew?* Yes who knew, who knew 175,302 deaths could be so funny, a real knee slapper. In case you're wondering why that number is different it's because 215 more Americans died of COVID-19 since I wrote that Email 3 1/2 hours ago. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 16:13:36 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:13:36 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death In-Reply-To: References: <008801d6762a$4508d8c0$cf1a8a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Where are we at in /excess/ deaths vs. Vietnam? That seems like a better comparison. Not every COVID death is an excess death - indeed, probably most aren't. But every Vietnam death was an excess death. On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:23 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *> But now I see why John, who is American, is always reporting the ratio >> of covid deaths over Vietnam war deaths: it makes the USA look great. It >> is a form of flag waving. John does love his government after all. Who >> knew?* > > > Yes who knew, who knew 175,302 deaths could be so funny, a real knee > slapper. In case you're wondering why that number is different it's because > 215 more Americans died of COVID-19 since I wrote that Email 3 1/2 hours > ago. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:30:31 2020 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:30:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16F74673-E4DA-455F-AD71-F36C12458B78@gmail.com> Rather usual for a bad virus. 1958-1959 pandemic killed as many adjust for population and as quickly. Remember this is < 0.05% of population. Also note CFR is dropping toward 3% as we now test a lot more asymptomatic people. IFR depends on the estimate of infections vs known cases ratio. Whatever that is divide the CFR by it. Last CDC estimate I saw a was down to 0.26% IFR. Yes the virus is scary but not exactly something I would consider worth as much hysteria and draconian measures (lockdowns) as were deployed. > On Aug 19, 2020, at 3:45 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > 58,220 Americans died in the entire Vietnam War of all causes not just from combat, and as of right now August 19 at 09:35 GMT 175,087 Ameracans have died of COVID-19, just over 3 times as many. And this all happened since February. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:34:28 2020 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 12:34:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6431877E-C79E-4F29-B0A5-7586382505E3@gmail.com> Yep. Until 2006 and a Bush commission the Swedish approach has been considered the most rational approach for dealing with a pandemic. That has been so since WWII. In 2006 the computer modelers won the day and got lockdown on the official list of possible responses. But note we did not do that for the Swine Flu pandemic of 2009. Mass lockdowns and such were frowned upon for major panicking of population and huge potential hit on economy. It was believed, I think rightly, that lockdowns widen, deepen and prolong the misery. > On Aug 14, 2020, at 4:08 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > Source: > > https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ > > Sweden did less than other countries on Covid. They did shut down schools, but didn?t do all that much else. > > The Swedish approach was not advertised as looking to achieve herd immunity, but that might be what is happening here. > > As Reason magazine points out, if they accidentally blundered into achieving even partial herd immunity, it is good news for the species: > > https://reason.com/2020/08/14/did-sweden-accidentally-blunder-into-covid-19-herd-immunity/?utm_medium=email > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 19 18:39:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:39:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? In-Reply-To: <6431877E-C79E-4F29-B0A5-7586382505E3@gmail.com> References: <005201d67287$79364700$6ba2d500$@rainier66.com> <6431877E-C79E-4F29-B0A5-7586382505E3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01d67658$07f38dd0$17daa970$@rainier66.com> Samantha Adkins! Where the heeeeeeelllll have ya been? And howya been? Plenty of new timers here can learn much from your posts! And we old timers want to know what you have to post. Tell us everything that happened in the last decade or so with Samantha. Welcome back, and don?t disappear again please. spike From: Samantha Atkins Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2020 11:34 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: spike at rainier66.com Subject: Re: [ExI] did sweden accidentally achieve herd immunity? Yep. Until 2006 and a Bush commission the Swedish approach has been considered the most rational approach for dealing with a pandemic. That has been so since WWII. In 2006 the computer modelers won the day and got lockdown on the official list of possible responses. But note we did not do that for the Swine Flu pandemic of 2009. Mass lockdowns and such were frowned upon for major panicking of population and huge potential hit on economy. It was believed, I think rightly, that lockdowns widen, deepen and prolong the misery. On Aug 14, 2020, at 4:08 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Source: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/ Sweden did less than other countries on Covid. They did shut down schools, but didn?t do all that much else. The Swedish approach was not advertised as looking to achieve herd immunity, but that might be what is happening here. As Reason magazine points out, if they accidentally blundered into achieving even partial herd immunity, it is good news for the species: https://reason.com/2020/08/14/did-sweden-accidentally-blunder-into-covid-19-herd-immunity/?utm_medium=email spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:48:23 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 14:48:23 -0400 Subject: [ExI] COVID-19 has now reached 3 Vietnam's worth of death Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 2:30 PM Samantha Atkins wrote: *> Also note CFR is dropping toward 3% as we now test a lot more > asymptomatic people. * And treatment has improved, so if you get sick from COVID-19 now you're less likely to die than you would have been in March. But over a thousand Americans dying a day is still way too high for my liking. And I can't help but think about what's going to happen in the fall and winter when pandemics almost always get worse. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 18:59:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 13:59:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: https://today.duke.edu/2017/03/modest-personality-trait-intellectual-humility-packs-punch Some real surprises here, esp. religious ver. non. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Aug 19 23:44:59 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 16:44:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds Message-ID: <20200819164459.Horde.bFLKfyTEn6CDNCA-lJ0wXxl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org: >>> But if Schrodinger's Equation and thus the entire Multiverse is 100% >> >>> deterministic why involve probability at all? Because each individual >> version >> >>> of me can only see a very small slice of the multiverse, until I actually >> >>> observe the particle in question I am lacking vital information, I have >> no >> >>> way of knowing if I am in the universe that has the spin up particle or >> the >> >>> one that has spin down. Probability is necessary for predicting the >> >>> behavior of something even if it's completely deterministic if you have >> >>> incomplete information about it. >> >> >> >> That is fine, but who or what is it that ensures that each possible >> >> quantum state is manifested completely deterministically in its own >> >> universe? Determinism is about cause and effect. What is breathing >> >> fire into the Schrodinger equation such that it can deterministically >> >> cause different universes to manifest to the observer? > > > You could ask the same question about any physical theory. Equations > describe reality, they don?t stand over reality with a stick to ensure that > the law is obeyed. > But in other physical theories, that question has a definite answer. For example, in Newton's theory, it is the force of gravity. In Einstein's theory, it is space-time curvature. Contrast "matter tells space-time how to curve; curved space-time tells matter how to move." with "shut up and calculate!" If that isn't an example of equations holding a stick over you, then what is? Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Thu Aug 20 00:05:18 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 17:05:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds Message-ID: <20200819170518.Horde.ey2488mQDl-0MaYf9FaxUK9@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Sorry for the repost but attributions matter. Quoting Stathis Papaioannou: >>> But if Schrodinger's Equation and thus the entire Multiverse is 100% >> >>> deterministic why involve probability at all? Because each individual >> version >> >>> of me can only see a very small slice of the multiverse, until I actually >> >>> observe the particle in question I am lacking vital information, I have >> no >> >>> way of knowing if I am in the universe that has the spin up particle or >> the >> >>> one that has spin down. Probability is necessary for predicting the >> >>> behavior of something even if it's completely deterministic if you have >> >>> incomplete information about it. >> >> >> >> That is fine, but who or what is it that ensures that each possible >> >> quantum state is manifested completely deterministically in its own >> >> universe? Determinism is about cause and effect. What is breathing >> >> fire into the Schrodinger equation such that it can deterministically >> >> cause different universes to manifest to the observer? > > > You could ask the same question about any physical theory. Equations > describe reality, they don?t stand over reality with a stick to ensure that > the law is obeyed. > But in other physical theories, that question has a definite answer. For example, in Newton's theory, it is the force of gravity. In Einstein's theory, it is space-time curvature. Contrast "matter tells space-time how to curve; curved space-time tells matter how to move." with "shut up and calculate!" If that isn't an example of equations holding a stick over you, then what is? Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 04:49:17 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2020 21:49:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] World's Largest Chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But how many millimeters across is it? What is its surface area and volume? If it is to be the "largest" chip, these dimensions should be provided. On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 5:58 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > A company called "Cerebra" has made the world's largest Microprocessor > chip, it contains 850,000 cores and 2.6 *Trillion* transistors; but it's > not going in a laptop anytime soon, it uses 15 KW of power. > > World's Largest Chip with 2.6 Trillion 7nm Transistors and 850,000 Cores > > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 10:38:38 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 06:38:38 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200819164459.Horde.bFLKfyTEn6CDNCA-lJ0wXxl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200819164459.Horde.bFLKfyTEn6CDNCA-lJ0wXxl@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:47 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> "matter tells space-time how to curve; curved space-time tells matter > how to move." with "shut up and calculate!" If that isn't an example of > equations holding a stick over you, then what is?* That is not a stick, that is an explanation of what's going on written in the language of English. A more detailed and more accurate depiction of what's going on could be provided by the language of mathematics and the grammar of 4 dimensional tensors. But that wouldn't be a stick either, it would just be a better description of what's going on said in a language that is not English. Some people don't like what Schrodinger's equation is telling us so they add an extra term into it that gets rid of the many worlds that they have a distaste for, the Ghirardi?Rimini spontaneous wave function theory does this. It doesn't make any predictions of experimental results that are one bit better than the unmodified Schrodinger equation, but it does stop it from being deterministic; it says that most of the time a particle doesn't have a specific location but every once in a while in a process that is random in both space and time for no reason the wave function collapses and the particle receives one and only one real specific location. In a blatant violation of Occam's Razor, Ghirardi?Rimini mutilate Schrodinger's equation, which is already very complicated and difficult to work with, and make it even more complicated and even more difficult to work with. And the only reason for doing any of this is to avoid a conclusion that they have a personal distaste for. This is not progress. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 12:25:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 05:25:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] World's Largest Chip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002b01d676ed$0c130c70$24392550$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] World's Largest Chip A company called "Cerebra" has made the world's largest Microprocessor chip, it contains 850,000 cores and 2.6 Trillion transistors; but it's not going in a laptop anytime soon, it uses 15 KW of power. World's Largest Chip with 2.6 Trillion 7nm Transistors and 850,000 Cores John K Clark >?But how many millimeters across is it? What is its surface area and volume? If it is to be the "largest" chip, these dimensions should be provided. They do: 46k mm^2. That dude would be about the size of a salad plate. Cool! It would need to be that size to be cool. I don?t know how it is done in the new days, but in the olden days, all the calculation was done at the core, then all the I/O stuff had to be serially amplified up to the periphery to interface with 5 vdc and the giant meat beasts who supply the power, out in the great unknown, from unfathomable distances, hundreds of meters away. Most of the power of a chip back then was in I/O. I was wondering if there was a way to do massively parallel operations with a bunch of cores handing results to each other and not ramping the signal back up to our scale until the endgame. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 12:45:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 05:45:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman Message-ID: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> Samantha Adkins is the virtual woman: she occasionally pops into existence, briefly interacts with our world POOF gone again. I was hoping she would stay and take a bow for some predictions she made in about 2002, when all those Patriot Act laws were being enacted after the 9/11 attacks. She was the loudest and clearest voice warning this FISA business is dangerous as hell: it starts out legitimately, then once the threat has passed, it stays, and is eventually used as a political weapon. That commentary from about 2002 was so prescient of what happened in 2016, she appears to be a prophetess. The FBI falsified evidence to get a FISA warrant and used it against their political adversaries. Well done Samantha. Do come and take a virtual bow. Stay by a while, rather than combining with some cosmic anti-Samantha and disappearing. You were right on with those predictions from 18 years ago, saw it as clearly as if you were reading todays news, I was right off, blind as a covid-infected bat. I didn't think our own FBI would turn on us. It did. Power corrupts, we handed them open-ended power, it corrupted. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 13:56:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:56:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> I didn?t think our own FBI would turn on us. It did. Power corrupts* The FBI may be corrupt but in 2020 it is probably the least corrupt part of the Federal Government, even the weather bureau has been compromised. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 14:13:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 07:13:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] quantum woman On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> I didn?t think our own FBI would turn on us. It did. Power corrupts >?The FBI may be corrupt but in 2020 it is probably the least corrupt part of the Federal Government, even the weather bureau has been compromised. John K Clark Sheesh, the weather bureau falsified evidence to violate our civil rights now? All is lost. No it isn?t. We caught the bastards at the FBI. We will catch the weather guys too if they are doing it. Friday and Gannon must be spinning in their graves. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 14:26:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:26:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Sheesh, the weather bureau falsified evidence to violate our civil > rights now?* Yes if one of the civil rights is the right to live because the government has falsified the best scientific prediction of the future path of a killer hurricane, and it was done with a sharpie. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 14:55:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 07:55:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00df01d67701$fc053280$f40f9780$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> Sheesh, the weather bureau falsified evidence to violate our civil rights now? >?Yes if one of the civil rights is the right to live because the government has falsified the best scientific prediction of the future path of a killer hurricane, and it was done with a sharpie. John K Clark The Bill of Rights includes an article that guarantees the government will predict hurricane paths? Which one is that? I see the 4th Amendment that guarantees the government will not do what the FBI did, but I don?t see any clause in there about hurricanes. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:22:53 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 16:22:53 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary Message-ID: Humans aren?t inherently selfish ? we?re actually hardwired to work together August 20, 2020 Author Steve Taylor Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Leeds Beckett University Quotes: According to some estimates, around 15,000 years ago, the population of Europe was only 29,000, and the population of the whole world was less than half a million. With such small population densities, it seems unlikely that prehistoric hunter-gatherer groups had to compete against each other or had any need to develop ruthlessness and competitiveness, or to go to war. Indeed, many anthropologists now agree that war is a late development in human history, arising with the first agricultural settlements. ----- In my book The Fall, I suggest that the end of the hunter-gatherer lifestyle and the advent of farming was connected to a psychological change that occurred in some groups of people. There was a new sense of individuality and separateness, which led a new selfishness, and ultimately to hierarchical societies, patriarchy and warfare. At any rate, these negative traits appear to have developed so recently that it doesn?t seem feasible to explain them in adaptive or evolutionary terms. Meaning that the ?good? side of our nature is much more deep-rooted than the ?evil? side. ------------------ A bit more optimistic view of humanity? BillK From interzone at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 16:25:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:25:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Are you seriously more concerned about sharpiegate than FISA abuses?! On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 10:27 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 10:15 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *Sheesh, the weather bureau falsified evidence to violate our civil >> rights now?* > > > Yes if one of the civil rights is the right to live because the government > has falsified the best scientific prediction of the future path of a killer > hurricane, and it was done with a sharpie. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 16:44:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 09:44:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011e01d67711$3d85da20$b8918e60$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] quantum woman >?Are you seriously more concerned about sharpiegate than FISA abuses?! Dylan Hi Dylan, thanks for that. We just had the FBI confess to the biggest political scandal, not since Watergate, this is waaaay way bigger than Watergate, way bigger than Teapot Dome. This is the biggest political scandal of American history. Our own stealth prophetess Samantha Atkins saw it all coming, at least 14 years in advance. Much (perhaps most) of that is in the archives. We formed an offlist subgroup, but before that, plenty of it went into the archives. Samantha was the clearest and most accurate voice, ringing like a bronze bell in the still night. But she had the curse of Cassandra (the goddess, not the rock group.) We were Apollo followers (the god, not the rocket.) Samantha?s warnings were eloquently stated, specific, and as it turns out perfectly accurate, seeing 15 years into the future. We didn?t believe. Well, my apologies Samantha. We believe now. We will not pray to you, not even the Greeks among us, but next time we have a local schmooze I will buy lunch. We will all have a whole new attitude, and listen to your next commentary with renewed respect. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hibbard at wisc.edu Thu Aug 20 16:51:51 2020 From: hibbard at wisc.edu (Bill Hibbard) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:51:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary Message-ID: I'm skeptical. Early humns needed a strong motive to leave Africa, where food was plentiful, and travel across and to much more difficult environments (deserts, the artic). I believe the motive to migrate was to escape warfare, especially raids between villages to capture women. I read one anthropologist who estimated that primitive men who killed had, on average, three times as many children as men who did not kill. I believe warfare exists among chimps. > Humans aren?t inherently selfish ? we?re actually hardwired to work together > August 20, 2020 > > Author Steve Taylor > Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Leeds Beckett University > > > Quotes: > According to some estimates, around 15,000 years ago, the population > of Europe was only 29,000, and the population of the whole world was > less than half a million. With such small population densities, it > seems unlikely that prehistoric hunter-gatherer groups had to compete > against each other or had any need to develop ruthlessness and > competitiveness, or to go to war. From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 17:04:55 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:04:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Selfishness and working together are not mutually exclusive at all. First, see to yourself, then join the group for hunting and gathering. Is there anyone out there who does not have a bit of larceny in their makeup? If so, hahahahaha! Delusions. What was stealing if not selfishness- getting a bit more out of the harvest then deserved? All these theories about what happened 50K years ago. Well, somebody has to get tenure, I understand that, but why can't we just look at ourselves as we are and figure out where to go from here? If something is mostly genetic we'll have to work harder to change it, that's all. Very little outside of basic body functions is so hardwired that we have little control over it. Just have to learn how, that's all. Psychology is extremely young in terms of how far we have to go. bill w On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:53 AM Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I'm skeptical. Early humns needed a strong motive to leave > Africa, where food was plentiful, and travel across and to > much more difficult environments (deserts, the artic). > > I believe the motive to migrate was to escape warfare, > especially raids between villages to capture women. I read > one anthropologist who estimated that primitive men who > killed had, on average, three times as many children as men > who did not kill. I believe warfare exists among chimps. > > > Humans aren?t inherently selfish ? we?re actually hardwired to work > together > > August 20, 2020 > > > > Author Steve Taylor > > Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Leeds Beckett University > > > > < > https://theconversation.com/humans-arent-inherently-selfish-were-actually-hardwired-to-work-together-144145 > > > > Quotes: > > According to some estimates, around 15,000 years ago, the population > > of Europe was only 29,000, and the population of the whole world was > > less than half a million. With such small population densities, it > > seems unlikely that prehistoric hunter-gatherer groups had to compete > > against each other or had any need to develop ruthlessness and > > competitiveness, or to go to war. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 17:50:00 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:50:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary Message-ID: BillK > Humans aren?t inherently selfish ? we?re actually hardwired to work together August 20, 2020 Author Steve Taylor Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Leeds Beckett University Sloppy thinking, conflating cooperation with wars. Humans are animals. Animals always live at the ecological limit of their environment. Humans are also top predators. The only way top predator numbers are ultimately limited is by killing each other. (Consider lions.) The idea that stone-age peoples did not engage in warfare is wishful thinking. Overpopulation for humans is not new. However, it is modified by the fact that they did not fight all the time. Fighting is dangerous, and would simply be bred out of the race if it were not better for genes (under some circumstances) than not fighting. Humans, unlike chimps, fight only when the consequences of not fighting are worse. So we have evolved to detect when it is worth fighting. ?War mode? is turned on by falling income per capita and turned off by rising income per capita. Keith From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 18:11:16 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 19:11:16 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 17:54, Bill Hibbard via extropy-chat wrote: > > I'm skeptical. Early humans needed a strong motive to leave > Africa, where food was plentiful, and travel across and to > much more difficult environments (deserts, the arctic). > > I believe the motive to migrate was to escape warfare, > especially raids between villages to capture women. I read > one anthropologist who estimated that primitive men who > killed had, on average, three times as many children as men > who did not kill. I believe warfare exists among chimps. > _______________________________________________ The expansion out of Africa was in prehistory so there is much speculation about this movement. Certainly it wasn't one event. Small groups moved over 100,000+ years. Some people think erratic climate changes may have played a part. Hunter gatherers have a range of about 5-10 miles, so over thousands of years they could gradually move out of Africa as their range changed. Maybe the valley over the hill just looked more attractive? Warfare wouldn't happen until the population was large enough that one group wanted to take over an already occupied territory. And anyway hunter gatherers would probably find better food in an area where humans were not already present. For prehistory there is no end to making up stories! :) BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 18:21:29 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A722363-EBD0-424E-AB6B-2175B64A69E7@gmail.com> On Aug 20, 2020, at 6:59 AM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:47 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > I didn?t think our own FBI would turn on us. It did. Power corrupts > > The FBI may be corrupt but in 2020 it is probably the least corrupt part of the Federal Government, even the weather bureau has been compromised. The FBI kind of started in corruption. From Hoover on, from blackmailing politicians and public figures to operations like COINTELPRO. It?s funny (in a sad way) to see anyone praise it. It?s kind of like how gets praised by folks who one would expect to be ?s vehement critics. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 18:32:07 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 11:32:07 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rally again Message-ID: <017301d67720$36bbe270$a433a750$@rainier66.com> I have some early fun numbers for yas, and a comment by friends who just returned last night from that bike rally in Sturgis. First the numbers: The rally was officially cancelled (some claim), but it was for show: the bikers and vendors came anyway. The town of Sturgis has little going for it. They make their living on half a million bikers coming every summer to party and participate in recreational irresponsible behaviors for a week. There is a local university with about 4000 students, which opened for classes the same day the rally kicked off. This year they expected about 250k bikers, but the turnout was about 460k, which is only a little below normal, perhaps 8% down from last year. Regarding covid, the U has 4k mostly young indestructibles (as we all were at some time in the past (distant past in my case.)) The rally had over 100 times as many proles, but they are largely the destructibles: if you have ever been to a Harley rally, it is definitely the geriatric crowd, median age I would estimate at about late 50s. The U had mandatory masks, estimated 95% compliance. The bike rally had mandatory masks, estimated 5% compliance, but with a stipulation: those 5% made sure everyone knew the reason they were wearing one was because they want to, not because anyone told them to. It works that way with helmets too. But anyway... Numbers so far: the U opened for a week, shut back down with 3 new cases. The bike rally has one known new case, so they are tracking those who were at the bar where the one feller is thought to have been infected. My friends just returned yesterday, they feel fine, had a blast, want to go again. The T-shirts ran out before the demand did, so yahoos were scalping. Scandalous profit opportunity missed, damn. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 19:29:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:29:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:28 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Are you seriously more concerned about sharpiegate than FISA abuses?!* > Yes, but before I go further please note I am not the one who introduced this subject, I am answering your question. The pronouncements of POTUS and that of his flunkies in the Senate is not evidence, and I see about as much evidence of widespread FISA abuses as there evidence that something called "Obamagate" exists, that is to say no evidence at all. On the other hand sharpiegate certainly exists, it was live on national TV, and even a small hurricane can kill a lot of people, so I was concerned about that. I was even more concerned when that very same sharpie wielding wannabe dictator said just 3 days ago "*We are going to win four more years. And then after that we?ll go for another four years, because they spied on my campaign. We should get a redo of four years*." And yes I know the drill by now so I'll save you the trouble, we shouldn't be worried in the slightest when POTUS threatens to become a traitor as he's done so often in the past because the constitution says he can't do unconstitutional things, and the constitution can not be violated just as the Second Law Of Thermodynamics can not be violated. Both are metaphysical impossibilities. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 19:49:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 12:49:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?I see about as much evidence of widespread FISA abuses as? that is to say no evidence at all? John K Clark I see. So the FBI pleading guilty to falsifying evidence, which is a felony, will cost the perp his law license and possibly send him for a long vacation at Club Fed, equals no evidence at all? I don?t recall when (if ever) any FBI agent has been convicted of the felony of falsifying evidence. It looks to me like we would need to review every case this guy ever touched and every project on which he ever worked. Hard telling how many are in prison because the FBI falsified evidence against them. We have one of our own right here who spent time in prison over falsified evidence. This is serious business when the FBI does it. If Friday and Gannon had not already perished of natural causes, this would have killed them both. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 20:00:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 13:00:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01c201d6772c$8e637f40$ab2a7dc0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?We have one of our own right here who spent time in prison over falsified evidence. This is serious business when the FBI does it?If Friday and Gannon had not already perished of natural causes, this would have killed them both. spike John, you have been with us long enough to recall the Patriot Act and all that fine print way down in there about FISA courts and FBI and CIA and all that? Do you recall our own Samantha Adkins getting into it with our own Julian Assange, with Mike Lorrey shrieking the loudest of all (Mike was good at that) but at the end of the day? ?Samantha turned out to be exactly right. This FISA business is unaccountable power, it is dangerous, it will corrupt, it will be abused for political reasons, she very clearly warned us. She was right on. We didn?t believe it. We should call her Cassandra. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 22:29:58 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:29:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 3:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *So the FBI pleading guilty to falsifying evidence* [...] I didn't know the FBI could plead anything, and any damage caused by abuse of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is trivial compared to damage caused by Russian intelligence operatives in the 2016 presidential election; of the 120 million votes cast in 2016 if 107,000 votes in 3 states had been different we wouldn't have the president that we have now, so it's not much of a stretch to say that Vladimir Putin decided who our president would be. Just a few days ago the *Republican controlled* Senate concluded that Trump's campaign chairman Paul Manafort's "*high-level access and willingness to share information with individuals closely affiliated with the Russian intelligence services*" was a "*grave counterintelligence threat*," and his "*presence on the Campaign and proximity to Trump created opportunities for Russian intelligence services to exert influence over, and acquire confidential information on, the Trump Campaign*." *Republican senators* concluded that Manafort was working directly with Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian intelligence officer, and tried to share information with him. The *Republican committee* says it obtained "*some information suggesting Kilimnik may have been connected to Russia's 2016 hacking operation of Hillary Clinton's emails and the Democratic National Committee*", the Republican agents continued until at least January 2020 to spread disinformation about Russia's role in the 2016 election and Manafort and Kilimnik actively participated in this influence campaign by blaming the meddling on Ukraine. The* Republican committee* found that Vladimir Putin was personally behind the theft and publishing ofDemocratic Party emails, and that Julian Assange and WikiLeaks played a inportant part and "*very likely knew it was assisting a Russian intelligence influence effort*." Republican senators also concluded that Trump's campaign asked for advance notice of the WikiLeaks disclosures so they'd have more time to make a better public relations statement and even encouraged "*further theft of information and continued leaks*." The *Republican senators* also concluded that Roger Stone was asked by the Trump campaign to find all the information WikiLeaks had about Clinton and the Democrats and "*Trump and the Campaign believed that Stone had inside information and expressed satisfaction that Stone's information suggested more releases would be forthcoming*". The Republican senators said that when Stone learned the infamous access Hollywood tape was about to be made public he told WikiLeaks to start publishing the stolen Emails right away, and 30 minutes later they were. The *Republican senators* said Russia took advantage of the Trump transition team's lack of sophistication and strong opposition to Obama administration policies "*to pursue unofficial channels*." And "*it's likely that Russian intelligence services exploited the Trump's transition team's inexperience for Russia's advantage*". The Republican senators also criticized the FBI, they said they "didn't act aggressively enough to warn the Democratic National Committee about the hacking operation" and they criticized the Democrats for being sloppy with their computer security. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 20 22:42:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 15:42:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] quantum woman In-Reply-To: References: <003a01d676ef$be58f2d0$3b0ad870$@rainier66.com> <009a01d676fc$1a355fb0$4ea01f10$@rainier66.com> <01b901d6772b$1506baf0$3f1430d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001601d67743$269a02f0$73ce08d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] quantum woman On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 3:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> So the FBI pleading guilty to falsifying evidence [...] >?I didn't know the FBI could plead anything, and any damage caused by abuse of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is trivial compared to? John K Clark Once I saw that comment, there was no point in reading further. If the next words had been ?unlimited thermonuclear war? or ?collision with a planet-sized meteor? it would be true. Other than those two things, the abuse of the FISA process to violate the civil rights of an American citizen guaranteed in the constitution by our own FBI is an attack on the American people by our own government. That isn?t trivial. Samantha warned us. She was right on. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 00:48:00 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 17:48:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary Message-ID: Bill Hibbard wrote: > I'm skeptical. Early humns needed a strong motive to leave Africa, where food was plentiful, Stop right there: Food has NEVER been plentiful. Why? if it was, then the women got busy making more kids who ate the food. > and travel across and to much more difficult environments (deserts, the artic). > I believe the motive to migrate was to escape warfare, especially raids between villages to capture women. I read one anthropologist who estimated that primitive men who killed had, on average, three times as many children as men who did not kill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_Chagnon The data is sound, but the interpretation is less so. > I believe warfare exists among chimps. As reported by Goodall and others. The difference with humans is that chimps are in "war mode" all the time and not like humans who are periodically at war/ Keith From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 01:28:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:28:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis rally again In-Reply-To: <017301d67720$36bbe270$a433a750$@rainier66.com> References: <017301d67720$36bbe270$a433a750$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003201d6775a$53f3fff0$fbdbffd0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com >...friends who just returned last night from that bike rally in Sturgis...spike We know it is a well-known pattern with virii: they hit humanity, slay a bunch of proles, it mutates, the mutant strain competes with the original, both strains cause production of similar antibodies, so they compete with each other in a sense. The strains which leave the host alive longer have a competitive advantage. Result: the newer strains are more catchy but less deadly. The data from Santa Clara County has been so puzzling until we realize the locals might be catching a mutant strain. For the past several months, the county has been averaging about 200 new cases a day, with an average of just below 1 fatality a day. Earlier in the pandemic the fatality rate was a lot higher. Perhaps we prevented overwhelming the medical system at first, until a mutant came along which really isn't that different in lethality from the regular flu. If so, we don't need to keep stuff shut down anymore. If that explanation is right, we would expect to see a lot of new cases from the Sturgis rally but not a huge number of fatalities. I keep hearing of this D614G. Might this be the one which explains why the Santa Clara county covid fatality rate remains at about half a percent over the last three months? Have we covid hipsters among us who might offer insights please? spike From ExiMod at protonmail.com Fri Aug 21 03:17:08 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 03:17:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: John, You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list now. You have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to the Exi list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA political arguments into the Exi list. With the election season starting, USA political accusations and counter-accusations will become even more extreme as the mass media spread the hate message to both sides so that compromise becomes impossible. We must try to keep this disorder away from the Exi list. This is your final warning to stop sending inflammatory posts about USA politics to the Exi list. If you send one more, you will be temporarily banned from the Exi list for a period of one week. ExiMod Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 10:34:06 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 06:34:06 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:17 PM ExiMod wrote: *> John, **You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list > now. you have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to > the Exi list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA > political arguments into the Exi list.* > OK, it's you're a list not mine and I believe in private property. But I'm not the one who introduced the FISA topic so just out of curiosity does this warning also hold for the previous list moderator? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 11:16:33 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:16:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:50 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Stop right there: Food has NEVER been plentiful. Why? if it was, > then the women got busy making more kids who ate the food. > Food is plentiful in the US now and the birth rate isn't skyrocketing. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 12:21:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:21:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:17 PM ExiMod > wrote: > John, You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list now. you have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to the Exi list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA political arguments into the Exi list. >?OK, it's you're a list not mine and I believe in private property. But I'm not the one who introduced the FISA topic so just out of curiosity does this warning also hold for the previous list moderator? John K Clark This is an interesting question. It looks to me like every country in the world which has the capability of doing secret surveillance on its citizens must have a legal system governing it. No partisanship or politics in that comment. In the USA, secret surveillance of communication is illegal, no partisanship or politics there. In the USA, laws were passed to go around a constitutional prohibition of secret surveillance under special circumstances in response to a foreign attack on 9/11/01 no politics. One would think (nearly) every government must have some means of controlling the power of secret surveillance, no politics there. Our FBI was caught violating its own rules, party is irrelevant, what they were actually doing is extremely relevant, no politics needed or desired with that comment. It doesn?t matter to me which party was doing what, this was the FBI, which doesn?t have a party, it is law enforcement. It was caught in a corrupt act. John, do you see the difference? I don?t need to name parties, because this is irrelevant to law. Good chance all of the players were one of the two major parties, but that doesn?t matter. This isn?t right vs left, it?s right vs wrong. Samantha warned us. Her vision was crystal clear. Secret surveillance is inherently dangerous in the hands of any government. Sooner or later that power will be corrupted and abused. It was. Not right vs left. Right vs. wrong. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:22:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:22:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did not Google it, but long ago I read about a relationship between food availability and birth rates. The naive assumption is that the more food you have, the more optimistic you are about the future, the more babies you have. And it is exactly opposite. Theis counters the notion that foreign aid will just make the overpopulation worse, usually made by conservatives. There ought to be a lot of supporting data here. bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:18 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:50 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> Stop right there: Food has NEVER been plentiful. Why? if it was, >> then the women got busy making more kids who ate the food. >> > > Food is plentiful in the US now and the birth rate isn't skyrocketing. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:30:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 07:30:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: spike, if it's not too much trouble, will you dig out that Samantha post so I can follow what is going on? Thanks! bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:17 PM ExiMod wrote: > > > > *> **John, You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list > now. you have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to > the Exi list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA > political arguments into the Exi list.* > > > > >?OK, it's you're a list not mine and I believe in private property. But > I'm not the one who introduced the FISA topic so just out of curiosity does > this warning also hold for the previous list moderator? > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > This is an interesting question. It looks to me like every country in the > world which has the capability of doing secret surveillance on its citizens > must have a legal system governing it. No partisanship or politics in that > comment. > > > > In the USA, secret surveillance of communication is illegal, no > partisanship or politics there. > > > > In the USA, laws were passed to go around a constitutional prohibition of > secret surveillance under special circumstances in response to a foreign > attack on 9/11/01 no politics. > > > > One would think (nearly) every government must have some means of > controlling the power of secret surveillance, no politics there. > > > > Our FBI was caught violating its own rules, party is irrelevant, what they > were actually doing is extremely relevant, no politics needed or desired > with that comment. > > > > It doesn?t matter to me which party was doing what, this was the FBI, > which doesn?t have a party, it is law enforcement. It was caught in a > corrupt act. > > > > John, do you see the difference? I don?t need to name parties, because > this is irrelevant to law. Good chance all of the players were one of the > two major parties, but that doesn?t matter. This isn?t right vs left, it?s > right vs wrong. > > > > Samantha warned us. Her vision was crystal clear. Secret surveillance is > inherently dangerous in the hands of any government. Sooner or later that > power will be corrupted and abused. It was. Not right vs left. Right vs. > wrong. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:37:22 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:37:22 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *John, do you see the difference?* Why are you asking me this? Are you trying to provoke me to get me banned? You know perfectly well that you are allowed to talk about things that I am not, so any debate with you would be very very short. I'm not going for the bait. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:39:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:39:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:35 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > spike, if it's not too much trouble, will you dig out that Samantha post > so I can follow what is going on? > And then there would be yet more stuff that I couldn't respond to. John K Clark >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 12:45:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:45:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005e01d677b8$fa6eedf0$ef4cc9d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 5:31 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning spike, if it's not too much trouble, will you dig out that Samantha post so I can follow what is going on? Thanks! bill w Dang, our archives only go back to October 2003, and the real action predated that. I think most of the discussion was over by then, with the Patriot Act signed into law on 26 October 2001. Most of the debate on this list happened in the fall of that year, and much of it was offlist. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 12:49:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:49:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006a01d677b9$9bf024f0$d3d06ed0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 5:37 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:23 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > John, do you see the difference? Why are you asking me this? Are you trying to provoke me to get me banned? You know perfectly well that you are allowed to talk about things that I am not, so any debate with you would be very very short. I'm not going for the bait. John K Clark A repeated challenge to you John is simple: can you discuss something like power abuse, Patriot Act, FISA and such without resorting to politics? Why does party matter for something like that? I don?t see why it would and certainly don?t see why it must. Party doesn?t matter when it comes to falsifying evidence. Power corrupted the FBI. Same with covid response: political party is irrelevant and interferes with how effectively government and science interact to solve the crisis. ExIMod will welcome your contribution. Just don?t politicize it. Politics is irrelevant, both in covid and in FBI actions. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:55:46 2020 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:55:46 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 at 22:33, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I did not Google it, but long ago I read about a relationship between food > availability and birth rates. The naive assumption is that the more food > you have, the more optimistic you are about the future, the more babies you > have. And it is exactly opposite. Theis counters the notion that foreign > aid will just make the overpopulation worse, usually made by conservatives. > I read "Cannibals and Kings" years ago, it is an old book, so it might be out of date. But a couple of things are mentioned there which might be relevant. The first was that human societies, in isolation, tend to wind up in a status where the birthrate keeps pace with the available food, and resources are not consumed beyond a sustainable level. When this community comes into contact with another community, both groups then proceed to use up all available resources to out-compete each other. The other point was that while conflict is an age-old part of human life, warfare, as in organised conflict between large groups, did not exist before agriculture. Agriculture produces large surpluses of food, and can sustain more people than hunter-gatherer society can, and also requires a large population *for a brief period of time* to gather the harvest. This large population and an essentially idle population outside of harvest time results in warfare. I guess it comes down to how you define warfare. Violence is something all humans do, but warfare - as defined as large-scale and organised mass violence - seems to be relatively new. But, like I said, this information is quite old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannibals_and_Kings Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 12:58:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 05:58:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <002a01d677b5$9dd869c0$d9893d40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007901d677ba$c551c0a0$4ff541e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, August 21, 2020 5:40 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:35 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > spike, if it's not too much trouble, will you dig out that Samantha post so I can follow what is going on? And then there would be yet more stuff that I couldn't respond to. John K Clark On the contrary. Since we have long since forgotten what party the main players in the Patriot Act played what parts, this is a perfect example of a question which can be discussed without reference to party. We don?t know or care which party did what. There were foreign actors in the states, they hijacked planes and killed thousands, in an act which clearly was highly coordinated. The US government passed laws to allow it (under some circumstances) to do secret surveillance of suspicious characters. It was the whole sleeper-cell thing we were so worried about in 2001, both mainstream parties and the minors as well. Samantha pointed out the obvious: once the government has special-circumstances power to go around its own constitutional limits, it will arrange special circumstances to go around its own constitutional limits. It leveraged a crisis into an opportunity. The opportunity was to grab power. Power will eventually be abused. Ours did. We caught the bastards. Party is irrelevant there: this was law enforcement, falsifying evidence. It is a very serious thing when top-level government law enforcement falsifies evidence. But we caught em. OK, now what? The Patriot Act is still there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ExiMod at protonmail.com Fri Aug 21 13:06:50 2020 From: ExiMod at protonmail.com (ExiMod) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:06:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ??????? Original Message ??????? On Friday, 21 August 2020 11:31, John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:17 PM ExiMod wrote: > >>> John, You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list now. you have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to the Exi list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA political arguments into the Exi list. > > OK, it's you're a list not mine and I believe in private property. But I'm not the one who introduced the FISA topic so just out of curiosity does this warning also hold for the previous list moderator? > > John K Clark > >> John Many members (including yourself) have made short comments about USA law and Constitution without involving electioneering that I have not so far objected to. But you are the one who seizes the opportunity to post longer political rants against one party and their politicians. Similar rants could just as well be posted against the other party and their politicians. This is electioneering. The Exi list is not the place to do this. If short comments about the USA election / law / corruption / etc. become too frequent or hate-filled I will attend to that problem as it arises. ExiMod -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 14:06:07 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:06:07 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 9:53 AM wrote: *> John I don?t recall Samantha posting harsh things about you. * I sure do! In fact if you added everything up it wouldn't surprise me if she talked about me more than she talked about 9/11, a lot more. And this was in 2002. But I don't hold a grudge, I welcome her back. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Aug 21 15:01:00 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:01:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Patriot Act Message-ID: <20200821080100.Horde.Nfmz4l6PEciHAQ9c9bXSjis@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Spike wrote: > The Patriot Act is still there. > > > spike Not only is it still there but both House and Senate have just voted to renew it for another 3 years with a spiffy new title: the USA FREEDOM Reauthorization Act of 2020. It was modified by the Senate however and has gone back to the House for reapproval. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr6172 I am curious how the individual House and Senate votes will line up with regard to rhetoric and tweets from respective law makers regarding the POTUS recent use of DHS in riots. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 15:13:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 08:13:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Patriot Act In-Reply-To: <20200821080100.Horde.Nfmz4l6PEciHAQ9c9bXSjis@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200821080100.Horde.Nfmz4l6PEciHAQ9c9bXSjis@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <013501d677cd$9c333150$d49993f0$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Patriot Act Spike wrote: > The Patriot Act is still there. > > > spike Not only is it still there but both House and Senate have just voted to renew it for another 3 years with a spiffy new title: the USA FREEDOM Reauthorization Act of 2020. It was modified by the Senate however and has gone back to the House for reapproval. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr6172 I am curious how the individual House and Senate votes will line up with regard to rhetoric and tweets from respective law makers regarding the POTUS recent use of DHS in riots. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Thanks for that Stuart. If we don't impose some accountability on that "Patriot Act" business, we are dead. Any time you see anything with a name like "USA FREEDOM" anything, beware. Be very very ware. It starts to sound like the People's Republic of (doesn't matter where (you can be sure it isn't the people's anything (it's really the government's republic of wherever.))) These acts have a name that sounds good, but usually it isn't. We were warned. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 17:30:47 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:30:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would say Rafal also is toeing the line sometimes. In general I think more people than only John have been breaking the moratorium. I just care that the rule is applied evenly On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 09:17 ExiMod via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > ??????? Original Message ??????? > On Friday, 21 August 2020 11:31, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:17 PM ExiMod wrote: > > *> John, **You must stop your politicising behavior on the Exi list now. >> you have shown that you are able to make a valuable contribution to the Exi >> list, but you have to avoid bringing the current divisive USA political >> arguments into the Exi list.* >> > > OK, it's you're a list not mine and I believe in private property. But I'm > not the one who introduced the FISA topic so just out of curiosity does > this warning also hold for the previous list moderator? > > John K Clark > >> >> > John > > Many members (including yourself) have made short comments about USA law > and Constitution without involving electioneering that I have not so far > objected to. But you are the one who seizes the opportunity to post longer > political rants against one party and their politicians. Similar rants > could just as well be posted against the other party and their > politicians. This is electioneering. The Exi list is not the place to do > this. > > If short comments about the USA election / law / corruption / etc. become > too frequent or hate-filled I will attend to that problem as it arises. > > ExiMod > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 17:32:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 10:32:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ep again Message-ID: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> My next door neighbor's dog is a rescue animal, mixed, but with ancestors clearly Scottish shepherd and English shepherd, the last several generations of which never saw a sheep. Somehow this dog gets a most puzzled look whenever she sniffs my wool pants, with instincts calling to her but not really explaining what to do. I saw something yesterday with was most interesting. One of her friends is a big overweight Australian Labradoodle, as much flabby as fluffy. https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/australianlabradoodle.htm When these two bitches get together, they play in a way I don't see when the shepherd is in contact with other dogs in the park. These two run in concentric circles, with the athletic shepherd on the outside and the Aussie blobbing along on the inside. It occurred to me last night why this might be: the lab kinda looks like a sheep. Her friend runs around outside, attempting to herd her fluffy friend to the center of a non-existent flock. Dogs bred for a job and now serving as pets must be so confused by their own instincts. Keith talks about evolutionary psychology, which is really in some ways the human equivalent of the unemployed working dog. Perhaps we, like our pets, are vaguely compelled to do odd behaviors, to follow the puzzling instructions of our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 22:33:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:33:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ep again In-Reply-To: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> References: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: re odd behaviors - there was an Italian law professor who was sitting in on a colleague's class in torts and I was there. He never said anything - he just sat there and ran his little finger across his lips over and over and again and again. Never saw the like of it. But I do know what FReud would say. Did you have anything in mind for odd behaviors that might be genetic? That Aussie will run the fat off the Labradoodle. Can go on all day long. Should never be allowed to be a pet. All that energy and walking around on a leash. Probably should be put on Xanax. Not all that odd: I don't like bad language - never did. Mama hated it with a passion and so did every Munson I knew (Mama's family). As a libertarian I of course accept it, but have quit books when the characters are talking like stereotyped Mafia goons. You can get Dammit out of me if I stub my toe, but never just toss those words into my sentences. I don't disapprove of the various sexual deviations - don't bother me at all. But I am not interested in any of them. If you went on what I didn't do, you might think I was a prude, a bigot, and a prig. Nope. Don't turn up my nose - just don't like any of the above. I have often wondered about jiggling legs while sitting. I see it often when I watch tennis. Have not noticed any genetic involvement there. bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > My next door neighbor?s dog is a rescue animal, mixed, but with ancestors > clearly Scottish shepherd and English shepherd, the last several > generations of which never saw a sheep. Somehow this dog gets a most > puzzled look whenever she sniffs my wool pants, with instincts calling to > her but not really explaining what to do. > > > > I saw something yesterday with was most interesting. One of her friends > is a big overweight Australian Labradoodle, as much flabby as fluffy. > > > > https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/australianlabradoodle.htm > > > > When these two bitches get together, they play in a way I don?t see when > the shepherd is in contact with other dogs in the park. These two run in > concentric circles, with the athletic shepherd on the outside and the > Aussie blobbing along on the inside. > > > > It occurred to me last night why this might be: the lab kinda looks like a > sheep. Her friend runs around outside, attempting to herd her fluffy > friend to the center of a non-existent flock. > > > > Dogs bred for a job and now serving as pets must be so confused by their > own instincts. > > > > Keith talks about evolutionary psychology, which is really in some ways > the human equivalent of the unemployed working dog. Perhaps we, like our > pets, are vaguely compelled to do odd behaviors, to follow the puzzling > instructions of our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 23:02:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:02:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ep again In-Reply-To: References: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005c01d6780f$1aec88c0$50c59a40$@rainier66.com> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ep again re odd behaviors - there was an Italian law professor who was sitting in on a colleague's class in torts and I was there. He never said anything - he just sat there and ran his little finger across his lips over and over and again and again. Never saw the like of it. But I do know what FReud would say. Did you have anything in mind for odd behaviors that might be genetic? bill w Obsessive compulsive would be my best guess. I have a treasured memory. My alma mater, CalTech, invited me to speak at their annual alumni reunion. Not. My alma mater, CalTech, invited me to attend the annual alumni meeting. Well, OK the real truth: my good friend was an actual CalTech alum, PhD, 1979, physics. Mike invited me to join him as his guest at his 25th reunion in 2004, an invitation I cheerfully jumped on, with both hands, both feet, hair, eyes and teeth. We were listening to a marvelous collection of talks about astronomy, physics, geology, chemistry, oh what a marvelous time. He allowed me to choose the meetings, but he wanted to catch this one, on the topic of OCD. Mike freely admitted he had a lot of that going on, which I already knew, so of course we went, but when we arrived we were told that lecture had been moved to the big auditorium, so we went over. The big auditorium was packed to the rafters, every seat filled and with geeks standing. This professor gave a lecture on the topic, introducing a new collection of theories. At the conclusion, he opened it up for questions. Immediately an audience member asked ?Professor, does your theory offer us any insights on why it is that so many of us sitting in this auditorium right now have OCD?? The place broke out in wild applause. The professor offered: Although correlations are still poorly understood, and the condition can be socially debilitating, it is generally agreed that OCD confers some academic advantages. The room was filled with laughter and another round of thunderous applause. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Aug 21 23:13:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:13:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] sturgis again Message-ID: <007501d67810$b8dbc9f0$2a935dd0$@rainier66.com> Heeeeere they come. It has been long enough that covid numbers from that Sturgis rally last week are starting to roll in, like a rumbling line of bikers. Watch for numbers to increase in the next few days. If we don't see huge increases from that 460k bikers at Stugis, then everything we have done and everything we thought we knew about transmission of covid. is wrong: https://www.boston25news.com/news/trending/coronavirus-nebraska-covid-19-clu ster-linked-sturgis-motorcycle-rally-health-officials-say/EGYZE5RU7RA3BCZLA3 UXW45BT4/ If the numbers go up but not by too much, then we have some thinking to do. If they go waaaay the hell up, then everything the health departments did was justified, including the continued lockdown. So. make a prediction, even if it is grim. I am guessing as many as 10% of the Sturgis crowd will pick up the virus at the event. That alone will make 46 thooooousand new cases. If so, how many will die because of the Sturgis rally this year? 500? We will know in about 3 or 4 days on the cases, about a month we will know how many got killed at Sturgis this year. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:25:16 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:25:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Human Warfare is learned behaviour - not evolutionary Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: >On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 8:50 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Stop right there: Food has NEVER been plentiful. Why? if it was, >> then the women got busy making more kids who ate the food. > Food is plentiful in the US now and the birth rate isn't skyrocketing. Dave, do I need to qualify every posting that I am talking about the past, way before there was birth control? Things were different 60,000 years ago, but conditions in those times shaped our psychological traits of today. Keith From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:40:43 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 16:40:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: wrote: snip > A repeated challenge to you John is simple: can you discuss something like power abuse, Patriot Act, FISA and such without resorting to politics? These are inherently political topics. I couldn't do it. Asking John to do it verges on being mean. I should add that spike's political postings bug me more than John's and that's before I consider his hard to read formating. If you don't like what someone is saying, skip the post. If you want to see fewer of John's "political" postings, you could ask spike to quit responding to him. Keith From msd001 at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:53:00 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:53:00 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 7:42 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > snip > > > A repeated challenge to you John is simple: can you discuss something > like power abuse, Patriot Act, FISA and such without resorting to politics? > > These are inherently political topics. I couldn't do it. Asking John > to do it verges on being mean. > > I should add that spike's political postings bug me more than John's > and that's before I consider his hard to read formating. If you don't > like what someone is saying, skip the post. > > If you want to see fewer of John's "political" postings, you could ask > spike to quit responding to him. > Thank you for articulating it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 00:02:06 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:02:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: wrote: snip > OK, now what? > The Patriot Act is still there. Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act would not involve politics? I suppose it's not much crazier than Trump floating the idea of pardoning Edward Snowden. Keith PS https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/index.html From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 00:02:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:02:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] ep again In-Reply-To: <005c01d6780f$1aec88c0$50c59a40$@rainier66.com> References: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> <005c01d6780f$1aec88c0$50c59a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: My best guess: very few of them were clinical - by which I mean that the thoughts and/or behaviors were not at such a level as to seriously interfere with their lives. If they were not, then we are talking about perfectly normal behaviors which help a person study or make them not leave some question in their mind before they find the answer to it. No - OCD is no study aid. It's a serious disease in the literal meaning of that word. They drive everyone around them crazy and themselves as well, and dearly wish they could stop. Maybe it's a case like mine (which is of a different kind). I have tinnitus really bad and have had for a very long time. (happens to a lot of people who have some degree of deafness) But it does not bother me. Most of the time I have to tune it in to hear it. Otherwise it's like street noise which you can hear if you want and ignore if you want. But many people are devastated by it and some people commit suicide. Mine is not clinical. Theirs is. So - two people with the same symptoms and one handles it and the other doesn't. Common. bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ep again > > > > re odd behaviors - there was an Italian law professor who was sitting in > on a colleague's class in torts and I was there. He never said anything - > he just sat there and ran his little finger across his lips over and over > and again and again. Never saw the like of it. But I do know what FReud > would say. Did you have anything in mind for odd behaviors that might be > genetic? bill w > > > > > > > > > > > > Obsessive compulsive would be my best guess. > > > > I have a treasured memory. My alma mater, CalTech, invited me to speak at > their annual alumni reunion. > > > > Not. My alma mater, CalTech, invited me to attend the annual alumni > meeting. > > > > Well, OK the real truth: my good friend was an actual CalTech alum, PhD, > 1979, physics. Mike invited me to join him as his guest at his 25th > reunion in 2004, an invitation I cheerfully jumped on, with both hands, > both feet, hair, eyes and teeth. > > > > We were listening to a marvelous collection of talks about astronomy, > physics, geology, chemistry, oh what a marvelous time. He allowed me to > choose the meetings, but he wanted to catch this one, on the topic of OCD. > Mike freely admitted he had a lot of that going on, which I already knew, > so of course we went, but when we arrived we were told that lecture had > been moved to the big auditorium, so we went over. > > > > The big auditorium was packed to the rafters, every seat filled and with > geeks standing. This professor gave a lecture on the topic, introducing a > new collection of theories. At the conclusion, he opened it up for > questions. Immediately an audience member asked ?Professor, does your > theory offer us any insights on why it is that so many of us sitting in > this auditorium right now have OCD?? > > > > The place broke out in wild applause. > > > > The professor offered: Although correlations are still poorly understood, > and the condition can be socially debilitating, it is generally agreed that > OCD confers some academic advantages. > > > > The room was filled with laughter and another round of thunderous applause. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 00:09:25 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:09:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting question: who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > wrote: > > snip > > > OK, now what? > > > The Patriot Act is still there. > > Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act > would not involve politics? > > I suppose it's not much crazier than Trump floating the idea of > pardoning Edward Snowden. > > Keith > > PS > https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/index.html > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 22 00:19:57 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:19:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds Message-ID: <20200821171957.Horde.DnlAzkMK961FeOrlz2C_-sy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > Nothing is breathing fire into Schrodinger's equation, and nothing is > breathing fire into the English word "cow" either, that's why "cow" can't > even say Moo. You are correct that cow spelled in English can't say "moo". But what about cow spelled in DNA, then transcribed into RNA, and then translated in protein? Both the word "cow" and an actual cow are strings of information. The only difference is the alphabet, the length of the string, and the language it is written in. So the representational word-symbol "cow" is written with English letters where as a real functioning cow that can say "moo" is written in nucleotides, amino acids and water. Everett's theory could very well be right but would require the ontological existence of infinity as a physical quality. Our Hubble volume alone has an information capacity of approximately 7*10^186 by Bekenstein's bound. That's a lot of information for just one universe. And MWI seems to require the continuous open-ended spawning of new universes of similar information content, often differing by a single bit of information. Another issue with Everett's theory is that, if consciousness is truly unnecessary for the functioning of MWI, then how can you explain the experimentally verified phenomenon of the Quantum Zeno effect? Briefly, quantum states do not transition while they are being observed. So a radioactive atom would never decay so long as someone was continually observing it. Why would the universe always wait for you to look away before splitting into multiple quantum states? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 00:32:31 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:32:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning wrote: snip >>... OK, now what? >>... The Patriot Act is still there. >...Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act would not involve politics?... Keith Hmmm... Let's think about this. We live in times where we have a legal system which can indict a ham sandwich. This is nothing new of course. We have a clear case where power was abused. I fear the whole notion of Patriot Act is too popular with the holders of power, regardless of party, to let go of it. We all know the threat of being prosecuted based on phony evidence, and we know our own FBI was caught creating phony evidence. Every country in the world has a government which could threaten its own people with phony evidence. Ja I do think that topic transcends politics. This is about corruption and power being handed to government in a crisis, the eventual result of which was corruption. >From here it goes to stealth encryption, which has been on my mind for some time. We have the bandwidth, and the algorithms to do it seem simple enough: send messages in the form of graphics with the messages coded in the least significant bit of each pixel. Keith I don't understand why these kinds of meta-discussions need to devolve into pointless political nonsense and quarrelling, I really don't. All of it can be discussed with an international perspective. The FBI doesn't have a party, those guys are law enforcement. They let politics corrupt their power, sure, but point is the corruption, not the politics. >...I suppose it's not much crazier than Trump floating the idea of pardoning Edward Snowden. Given what happened, I don't see why not pardon him. We were told every year that civilians who did their jobs wrong, not even for profit or politics, but just for convenience, would be criminally prosecuted. We learned that just isn't true. No reasonable prosecutor would take that case. What we did is demonstrate a civilian who mishandles classified information will not be prosecuted. So... now civilians are not trusted with top level information. The military took all of that, because military guys can face military punishment. www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/ind ex.html Ja saw that. I expect those numbers will hafta go high. If they don't, the whole lockdown business was wrong and caused far more harm than good. The data is coming. Stand by for news. spike _______________________________________________ From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 00:58:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 17:58:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] ep again In-Reply-To: References: <001901d677e1$101f4500$305dcf00$@rainier66.com> <005c01d6780f$1aec88c0$50c59a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003501d6781f$53016d10$f9044730$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ep again >?No - OCD is no study aid. It's a serious disease in the literal meaning of that word. They drive everyone around them crazy and themselves as well, and dearly wish they could stop? bill w Ja. One of the things that sometimes comes as a package deal with OCD is super-focus. Consider classical chess. Ordinarily each player has 2 hours for the first 40 moves, and a typical high level game is decided by then, but not necessarily. A tournament game can go 5 to 7 hours if it is one where they play one round per day (high level competition.) Often in a critical position, a player will concentrate for an hour on one move. Not everyone is capable of that level of concentration. We had a former ExI poster, no longer with us, who had super-focus. He was a chess master, but also a mathematician. He could be a most difficult person, and had trouble fitting in. Never married, smart as a whip. Whenever I would go see him, he wanted to decide ahead of time what we would discuss so he could study and prepare for my visit. This part really blew me away, because he didn?t just visit, he planned for my visit, and figured out how much time, what we would talk about. That part was a little unnerving. He lived only a coupla miles from where I lived, but I could never just drop by and suggest we walk over to the local fried chicken, like a coupla fellers with nothing better to do. His life had STRUCTURE! When I went over, he would stay right on that topic, whatever it was, right on that and never deviate. For instance, we were talking about Mersenne primes and how I was doing that prediction business on Robin Hanson?s Ideas Futures. He studied up on the Ideas exchange, then asked me to come over and teach him the algorithm, which I did. I was over there about three hours. We didn?t deviate a trace from the pre-planned path, even when we walked over to KFC for lunch and back. He didn?t let me go until he understood Mersenne Primes and how the internet project works. It was exhausting, so single-minded was his visits. A local guy inherited his math notebooks. I am arranging to see if we can publish his notes. He was a most remarkable person. BillW might be able to offer insights on people who are super-planners and have super-focus. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 01:27:22 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:27:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6698cc99-c29c-62c2-a3fb-dc0b384b14a3@pobox.com> On 2020-8-21 17:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I expect those numbers will hafta go high. If they don't, the > whole lockdown business was wrong and caused far more harm than good. By "hafta", are you suggesting that the shadowy They need to go around infecting bikers to keep the numbers up? (Or, for an Agatha Christie touch, to obscure a targeted attack on one biker?) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 02:02:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:02:28 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <6698cc99-c29c-62c2-a3fb-dc0b384b14a3@pobox.com> References: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> <6698cc99-c29c-62c2-a3fb-dc0b384b14a3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <006201d67828$4a5c3470$df149d50$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On 2020-8-21 17:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> I expect those numbers will hafta go high. If they don't, the whole > lockdown business was wrong and caused far more harm than good. >...By "hafta", are you suggesting that the shadowy They need to go around infecting bikers to keep the numbers up? (Or, for an Agatha Christie touch, to obscure a targeted attack on one biker?) Sloppy language on my part, retract. What I meant was we have long understood that the virus needs a big crowd of tightly packed proles not wearing masks in order to spread. The Sturgis rally is the poster-child example of that. We missed a great opportunity to trace that, but now I find out not really. When people get covid treatments, their hospitals and doctors do ask questions and they are reporting back if the patient was at Sturgis. It was unjustified of me to think that data would be lost: if I thought of it, a million others did too, people who are even more focused on this problem than I am. This Sturgis rally is a rare example which cannot be politicized, for the politicians did not offer any permissions to hold the rally, nor were the asked for any, nor could they have stopped all those bikers had they wanted to. The Native Americans wanted to stop the bikers from coming thru because bikes have a short fuel range, so they need to stop often for gas and ass, meaning they will stop on the reservation. They didn't want them to come thru. But bikers will find a way. They did. OK no politician needs to accept responsibility for that rally. The bikers came on their own free will. They eschewed masks (my friend saw few wearing them (when they weren't riding.)) OK, big crowds, little if any personal protective gear (other than their flimsy excuse for a helmet some wear in the states which require them (but a lot of them don't in those helmet states (Sturgis is the annual recreational anarchist/civil disobedience festival (the constables on the route understand (and let them rumble on thru.))))) That whole setting just hasta be a virus playground. If it isn't, I need to rethink everything I thought I knew. I would guess 10% of the bikers would get infected at that rally. If it goes over 20%, I will not be astonished. If it goes under about 5%, I don't understand. Do you? Guesses? Post your estimate soon, the numbers are starting to rumble in. spike From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 01:12:48 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 18:12:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b2fa062-3d24-f0bf-633b-15699ae53786@pobox.com> On 2020-8-21 16:40, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > and that's before I consider his hard to read formating. If only there were a simple unambiguous way to mark quoted matter to distinguish it from new matter. If it were to catch on, maybe mail clients would build it in! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 02:19:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:19:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <006201d67828$4a5c3470$df149d50$@rainier66.com> References: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> <6698cc99-c29c-62c2-a3fb-dc0b384b14a3@pobox.com> <006201d67828$4a5c3470$df149d50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d6782a$b1a5c900$14f15b00$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >...That whole setting just hasta be a virus playground. If it isn't, I need to rethink everything I thought I knew...I would guess 10% of the bikers would get infected at that rally... Guesses? spike Recall there were nearly half a million bikers at that rally, not including vendors and locals. Add those, and half a million is close enough for single digit precision. My grim 10% infection estimate means about 50k new cases from that one week rally alone. The mortality rate estimates by age range is about 5% for age 45-55 12% for age 55-65 20% for age 65-75 https://www.acsh.org/news/2020/06/23/coronavirus-covid-deaths-us-age-race-14 863 The bikers are a geriatric bunch. Just going on the photos and my own experience with bike rallies, I would say the median age is not less than about 55. So about 10% mortality is as low as I would estimate, so we are looking at about 5000 fatalities from that one rally. The medics back home will inquire, and we will hear. California has a looootta lotta proles and the Sturgis rally is popular here, so we could reasonably estimate 500 Sturgis fatalities in California alone. Oy vey. Other guesses? From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 02:32:36 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 19:32:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... Message-ID: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... On 2020-8-21 16:40, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> ...and that's before I consider his hard to read formating. >...If only there were a simple unambiguous way to mark quoted matter to distinguish it from new matter. If it were to catch on, maybe mail clients would build it in!... Anton -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Hi Anton and Keith, Is the above ambiguous? My comments have no greater thans, the quoted material has one greater than, and the stuff quoted by the previous poster has two greater thans, and so on. Elided comments have the three dots. Using that system I can insert new commentary among quoted and twice-quoted material. I have been using that for 20 yrs and seems unambiguous to me. Keith did this message come out looking weird? I do spell weird, ja tis true, tragic 'tis, ja. I spell the way I speak. I speak the way I think. I think the way I spell. If that biker rally doesn't cause a huge covid surge, I will be thinking brhervuhn;dlkvnerphgrdved... Note, my own bike club is rallying in Sturgis next week. I deemed it too risky to go this year. Our gang's leader is 80. He is going. spike From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 03:04:29 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 20:04:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> On 2020-8-21 19:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Is the above ambiguous? My comments have no greater thans, the quoted > material has one greater than, and the stuff quoted by the previous poster > has two greater thans, and so on. Elided comments have the three dots. > Using that system I can insert new commentary among quoted and twice-quoted > material. Yours is better than some, but I'll note that (like Keith!) you have a '>' only on the FIRST line of my paragraph. I don't know if I've seen you doing this, but Keith sometimes inserts comments in the middle of a quoted line and fails to insert a new '>' when quotation resumes. When I elide matter, I put the ellipsis in brackets, "[...]", because sometimes the original had an ellipsis. For example, I sometimes mark a change of subject with the Mark of (Herb) Caen. ... Like that, except that I forgot what new subject I was going to put here. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 03:58:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 20:58:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi Message-ID: <000d01d67838$8b8c2e90$a2a48bb0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >>...That whole setting just hasta be a virus playground. If it isn't, I need to rethink everything I thought I knew...I would guess 10% of the bikers would get infected at that rally... Guesses? spike ... >...California has a looootta lotta proles and the Sturgis rally is popular here, so we could reasonably estimate 500 Sturgis fatalities in California alone. Oy vey...Other guesses? spike A long time ago we had a co-moderator who strictly forbade quoting oneself. We other moderators went along with it because he had such strong feelings, but after he left that post, I couldn't see why not quote oneself. One has further ideas on a topic, why not? I give me ideas all the time. So... if you wish to quote yourself with a further thought, I haven't seen ExIMod complain about it or scold me, perhaps the worst offender. Do pardon my focus on this grim topic please, for I had another thought. I estimated that with 500k at Sturgis, a reasonable guess is 10% catchers and 1% fatalties, so 5k deaths from Sturgis alone. If we go that route, we aren't too far off if we estimate 10% of the Sturgisers are from California, because California is a crowded state with a looootta great biker roads around here, so I wouldn't argue with anyone who said there were about 50k Californian Sturgisists. (Sturgerinos? Sturgeons?) OK then, Santa Clara county doesn't have 10% of California's population, but it has a lotta proles here, and it is high single digits percent of the population of California. Well sure, but this is a prosperous county, and motorcycles are a popular fun way to blow excess cash (hey, that's what I do with mine) with lotsa fun interesting roads around here, Mount Hamilton, the Coast Highway, biker hangouts at the legendary Alice's Restaurant (ja that one from the song is nearby.) So... if someone were to claim Santa Clara county has about 10% of California's Sturgis-goers, I would accept that, also considering that this is a strict-law area, so a coupla weeks a year of recreational civil disobedience playing rough tough biker dude is popular foolishness. OK ok ok, so... perhaps 5k Sturgis attendees from this county, I will buy that, and if 10% catch and about 10% of catchers are dyers, that's about 500 catchers and about 50 fatalities from covid from Sturgis from Santa Clara County. 50! Fifty! Sheesh! Background covid death rate in this county over the past three months is a little less than one adios amigo per day. If Sturgis hands us 500 sick bikers and 50 fatalities, all of them catching in one week, that's about 50 adioses over perhaps three weeks. That will be easy, eeeasy to detect. Conclusion: We won't miss that grim signal if it is there. It will be hard to explain if it isn't. The whole world will learn something new from this dataset. Somebody talk me outta this please. Not necessarily your best case or worst case estimates, but those would be OK too, I want just middle estimates. My median estimate is 50 Sturgis fatalities from my own county, mercy. Worst case twice that, best case half that. I am surprised no one else here is running with the ball the way I just did. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 04:39:21 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 21:39:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Sturgis murders? was: Exi In-Reply-To: <000d01d67838$8b8c2e90$a2a48bb0$@rainier66.com> References: <000d01d67838$8b8c2e90$a2a48bb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001301d6783e$34b83040$9e2890c0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... -----Original Message----- From: spike at rainier66.com ... >>>...That whole setting just hasta be a virus playground. ...spike ... >>...California has a looootta lotta proles ... spike ... >... My median estimate is 50 Sturgis fatalities from my own county, mercy. Worst case twice that, best case half that...spike We had the initial surge in March and April, settled down, then this summer it has been about 25 covid dirt naps per month. That estimate I made would mean the best case would cause the county fatality rate from covid to double. Best case would double it, median estimate would triple it, and my estimated worst case would send it five fold, daaaammmm. Worst case, five fold in September perhaps. Double in the best case, all from a motorcycle rally. I hadn't even done that grim calculus when I decided to eschew my own biker gang's rally in Sturgis next week. We were egging on each other in our online forum. I said no way Jose. Discretion is the better part of valor, and I don't know what indiscretion is the better part of, but you lads will know by the time you get back. (Our gang's median age is about 70 (gathering for that outfit is madness.)) They were saying, nah, you only live once, yakkity yak and bla bla. Sigh. So, on they go without me this time. This is after the main event at Sturgis last week, so the crowds are way down, which is to their benefit but I know a lot of my own biker buddies are older, some smoke, many are flab-meisters who wouldn't walk across the street if riding their bike over there is an option. With about 40 attending, I wouldn't be surprised at 4 catchers, and with those conditions, we will be lucky if we don't suffer a fatality. If all of these guys make it to November, it will be a thankful Thanksgiving for me. spike From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 05:17:30 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:17:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: snip > Keith talks about evolutionary psychology, which is really in some ways > the human equivalent of the unemployed working dog. Perhaps we, like our > pets, are vaguely compelled to do odd behaviors, to follow the puzzling > instructions of our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. >From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved human psychological trait. >Being captured by neighboring tribes was a relatively common event for women in human history, if anything like the recent history of the few remaining primitive tribes. In some of those tribes (Yanomamo, for instance) practically everyone in the tribe is descended from a captive within the last three generations. Perhaps as high as one in ten of females were abducted and incorporated into the tribe that captured them. Once you understand the evolutionary origin of this trait and its critical nature in genetic survival and reproduction in t>e ancestral human environment, related mysterious human psychological traits fall into place. Battered-wife syndrome is an example of activating the capture-bonding psychological mechanism, as are military basic training, fraternity bonding by hazing, and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline." Worse, than Spike's confused dogs. Keith From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 05:29:08 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 22:29:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Presumably Snowden. Also others who think the prosecution of Snowden is just about saving face at this point, not actually prosecuting crimes. On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 5:19 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Interesting question: who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? bill w > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > OK, now what? >> >> > The Patriot Act is still there. >> >> Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act >> would not involve politics? >> >> I suppose it's not much crazier than Trump floating the idea of >> pardoning Edward Snowden. >> >> Keith >> >> PS >> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 10:46:40 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:46:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history Message-ID: August 22, 2020 by Olga R. Rodriguez and Janie Har Quote: Lightning-sparked wildfires in Northern California exploded in size Friday to become some of the largest in state history, forcing thousands to flee and destroying hundreds of homes and other structures as reinforcements began arriving to help weary firefighters. More than 12,000 firefighters aided by helicopters and air tankers are battling wildfires throughout California. Three groups of fires, called complexes, burning north, east and south of San Francisco have together scorched 991 square miles (2,566 square kilometers), destroyed more than 500 structures and killed five people. At least 100,000 people are under evacuation orders. --------------- California is getting an early start to the fall fire season. The news says that the air around San Francisco is polluted with smoke and hard to breathe. I hope Spike and our SF people are OK. BillK From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 12:04:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:04:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> References: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> I fear the whole notion of Patriot Act is too popular with the holders > of power, regardless of party,to let go of it. * I agree with you. We already had sufficient laws on the subject before 911, the problem was not lack of laws it was lack of competent implementation of existing laws. The Patriot Act was not needed and it should be repealed. But a foreign government's intelligent service massively interfering with our presidential election is a legitimate cause for concern and a FBI investigation. And the Republican controlled Senate just concluded that it was not a hoax, there really was massive interference by Russian intelligence operatives in the 2016 presidential election. > *From here it goes to stealth encryption, which has been on my mind for > some time. * Encryption has always been on my mind. Remember the Clipper Chip? Back in 1993 the government tried to pass a law saying all forms of encryption would be illegal except for those that are encrypted with something called the "Clipper Chip", and the Clipper Chip had a government controlled backdoor built into its very hardware that allow the government to read any message encrypted by that chip whenever they wanted. There was intense opposition to this idea, virtually every encryption and computer security expert on the planet who didn't work for the government opposed the Clipper Chip; it was one of the main topics on this list at the time and I can't remember anyone who was in favor of it, but back then the list was a lot more pro-libertarian and anti-government than it is now. The tornado of opposition proved to be too much and by 1996 the government gave up and the Clipper Chip was dead. It may have died a quarter of a century ago but when Apple and Google started encrypting messages in such a way on their devices that even they couldn't decrypt the stuff on them the ghost of the Clipper Chip returned. The government decided that it still wanted a backdoor controlled by them installed into everything, except of course for devices the government itself used to encrypt its own internal communication. They certainly don't want a backdoor or anything remotely like it in any of them! The government wants the right to know all your secrets, but it doesn't want you to have the right to know any of the government's secrets. https://www.npr.org/2020/02/18/806887313/warrant-proof-encrypted-messages-targeted-by-trump-administration And if this post is a "rant" or is "too political" then I don't know what to do, just give up I guess. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 12:23:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:23:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <2b2fa062-3d24-f0bf-633b-15699ae53786@pobox.com> References: <2b2fa062-3d24-f0bf-633b-15699ae53786@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:16 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > If only there were a simple unambiguous way to mark quoted matter to > distinguish it from new matter. * Yes, that is one of my pet peeves! I think the "reply button" is one of the worst inventions ever made, if you want to include quoted material you should be required to laboriously type it all in, but that damn button makes it too easy; so with long threads you often get a confusing nest of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes. And then finally we come to new material, two words, "I disagree". Huh? You disagree with what? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 13:23:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 06:23:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003d01d67887$67ab3580$3701a080$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] (no subject) On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: snip >> Keith talks about evolutionary psychology...the puzzling instructions of our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. >...From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved human psychological trait. >...Being captured by neighboring tribes ...fraternity bonding by hazing, and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline." >...Worse, than Spike's confused dogs. Keith _______________________________________________ People who don't have those instincts find it so puzzling why some women stay with abusive partners (I know he's bad to me, she wailed, but I looove him...) When I looked into EP it sure makes a lotta sense, and explains why efforts to educate the victims out of those situations so often fail. Unless the training somehow understands the genetic basis of the behavior, it is destined to fail in a way analogous to local owners of malamute. That pooch is so forlorn and confused, doesn't understand what he is good for, until you put a harness on him. Then... he will yank your damn arm out of its socket, and keep pulling, even after his human has fallen and has been dragged for some distance, shouting "Rover, stop you stupid bastaaarrrrd!" Side note: trying to get a malamute to stop pulling at the leash is pointless. Far better to just get a good heavy bicycle and let him pull. You have never seen a happier dog than a malamute being allowed to do what his silly pea-brain tells him his ancestors have been doing for hundreds of generations and what he is for. OK, well... getting a malamute to stop pulling is difficult. He loves to pull. He feels that is what he is for. Training away self-destructive feelings is also hard in modern humans who have the instinct to stay with abusive mates. They get too beat up. So... we kinda deal with it by having simulated recreational cruelty I suppose. Modern porno shops have all those mysterious things under the counter that one would hesitate to even have explained, not so much out of embarrassment (I am immune to that emotion) but that it is one of those things that people without that instinct would really rather not know. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 13:50:38 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:50:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <003d01d67887$67ab3580$3701a080$@rainier66.com> References: <003d01d67887$67ab3580$3701a080$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: it is one of those things that people without that instinct would really rather not know. spike *This is the very reason I keep preaching about the word 'instinct'. Nominal fallacy, for one. OK - if you have the instinct you do it; if you don't, you don't. Can't get any more circular than that. So, sorry, you can't use instinct as an explanation. bill w* On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 8:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] (no subject) > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > snip > > >> Keith talks about evolutionary psychology...the puzzling instructions of > our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. > > >...From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved > human psychological trait. > > >...Being captured by neighboring tribes ...fraternity bonding by hazing, > and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline." > > >...Worse, than Spike's confused dogs. > > Keith > > _______________________________________________ > > > People who don't have those instincts find it so puzzling why some women > stay with abusive partners (I know he's bad to me, she wailed, but I looove > him...) > > When I looked into EP it sure makes a lotta sense, and explains why efforts > to educate the victims out of those situations so often fail. Unless the > training somehow understands the genetic basis of the behavior, it is > destined to fail in a way analogous to local owners of malamute. That > pooch > is so forlorn and confused, doesn't understand what he is good for, until > you put a harness on him. Then... he will yank your damn arm out of its > socket, and keep pulling, even after his human has fallen and has been > dragged for some distance, shouting "Rover, stop you stupid bastaaarrrrd!" > Side note: trying to get a malamute to stop pulling at the leash is > pointless. Far better to just get a good heavy bicycle and let him pull. > You have never seen a happier dog than a malamute being allowed to do what > his silly pea-brain tells him his ancestors have been doing for hundreds of > generations and what he is for. > > OK, well... getting a malamute to stop pulling is difficult. He loves to > pull. He feels that is what he is for. Training away self-destructive > feelings is also hard in modern humans who have the instinct to stay with > abusive mates. They get too beat up. So... we kinda deal with it by > having > simulated recreational cruelty I suppose. Modern porno shops have all > those > mysterious things under the counter that one would hesitate to even have > explained, not so much out of embarrassment (I am immune to that emotion) > but that it is one of those things that people without that instinct would > really rather not know. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 13:55:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 06:55:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 3:47 AM To: Extropy Chat Cc: BillK Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history August 22, 2020 by Olga R. Rodriguez and Janie Har Quote: Lightning-sparked wildfires in Northern California exploded in size Friday ... At least 100,000 people are under evacuation orders. --------------- >...California is getting an early start to the fall fire season. The news says that the air around San Francisco is polluted with smoke and hard to breathe. >...I hope Spike and our SF people are OK. BillK _______________________________________________ It's been smoky as hell around here but at the moment isn't bad BillK. I live within easy walking distance of the evacuation area. Our scoutmaster and his family, along with several friends over on the northeast side of San Jose have been evacuated at least twice, and might be out of their homes again. I offered to let him come down and make our camper a temporary home, but they instead chose to bring in cots and camp out in his office (he does have a nice office.) Friends to the south have had to take road trip to Oregon because they can't breathe down there. My immediate concern is for a camping place that is on Highway 9 in Santa Cruz county. My friend is an IT guy, walked away from a career at Stanford, bought that park and put all kindsa cool high techy stuff in there, such as 5G. If you have the equipment to take advantage of it, the internet at his park is terrific. Cotillion Gardens, check it out, great internet, beautiful surroundings. We hope. The firefighters were making a most heroic stand yesterday, brought in a thousand fellers, dozers, planes, choppers, everything they have with a mission: Hold the line at Highway 9. We don't know if Cotillion Gardens stands this morning or is in ashes, but here's the real problem: in that familiar song about this land is your land, that bit about "...from the redwood forests..." is Santa Cruz county. That campground and the homes up there are built among the giant redwoods. If you go there, you notice that the bark at the base of every giant redwood is charred, because those forests burn once in a while. It's what forests do. It doesn't hurt the big trees, but it slays the small ones, and it causes the tiny cones produced by those giant trees to open up and germinate. Giant coastal redwoods are dependent on fire, as a birth-control device in a sense: it both starts new trees and kills off the younger smaller ones, thus spreading out the generations of trees and keeps them from over-competing with each other. It is a beautiful place up there. Do go see it while you can. Giant redwoods like fire, they need fire, humans do not like fire. We work to stop it. Sometimes we succeed and when we do, over time, fuel accumulates. Those redwood forests get increasingly eager to burn. We might douse it this time, but if we do, there is still more fuel down there. Every time we stop the fire, it gets harder to stop. Fire kills some of the trees. In the long run lack of fire kills all of them. Suggestions welcome. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 13:56:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:56:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> Message-ID: How about using a different font or color from the post you are replying to? That stands out and cannot be mistaken for anything else. bill w On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 10:06 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-21 19:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Is the above ambiguous? My comments have no greater thans, the quoted > > material has one greater than, and the stuff quoted by the previous > poster > > has two greater thans, and so on. Elided comments have the three dots. > > Using that system I can insert new commentary among quoted and > twice-quoted > > material. > > Yours is better than some, but I'll note that (like Keith!) you have a > '>' only on the FIRST line of my paragraph. I don't know if I've seen > you doing this, but Keith sometimes inserts comments in the middle of a > quoted line and fails to insert a new '>' when quotation resumes. > > When I elide matter, I put the ellipsis in brackets, "[...]", because > sometimes the original had an ellipsis. For example, I sometimes mark a > change of subject with the Mark of (Herb) Caen. > > ... > Like that, except that I forgot what new subject I was going to put here. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 14:07:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:07:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200821171957.Horde.DnlAzkMK961FeOrlz2C_-sy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200821171957.Horde.DnlAzkMK961FeOrlz2C_-sy@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:26 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > You are correct that cow spelled in English can't say "moo". But > what about cow spelled in DNA,* DNA contains information but for information to do anything it has to be about something, and in this case the information is about a sequence of Amino Acids in a protein. Information by itself can't do anything because information by itself never changes, but matter can change, and a protein is made of atoms and atoms are made of matter. In Alan Turing's 1935 paper he introduced something that we now call a Turing machine, he explained how matter could be organized in such a way that it performed a calculation, he gave us the basic principle behind the operation of all computers. A mathematical book can't add 2+2, not even if it contains Turing's brilliant paper, because the atoms in the book are not organized in the way that Turing said they needed to be in to perform calculations. The important thing to remember about a Turing machine is that it's a machine, and machines are made of atoms, matter can change but information by itself cannot, it needs the help of matter. And without change there is no calculation or intelligence or consciousness. > > * > Everett's theory could very well be right but would require > the ontological existence of infinity as a physical quality.* Maybe, but not necessarily, nobody knows. The number of Everett Worlds is everything that is physically possible, and that might not be infinite, it might just be astronomically large raised to the astronomically large power. > > *Our Hubble volume alone has an information capacity of approximately > 7*10^186 by Bekenstein's bound.* That's the maximum amount of information according to Bekenstein that could fit into a volume the size of the observable universe, but the actual amount is far below the maximum, it's about 10^104 bits, 10^82 times less. But never mind, the trouble with the Bekenstein's bound is that it assumes General Relativity holds true all the way down to the Planck level of 10^-35 Meters and 10^-43 Seconds, and that is almost certainly not true. We won't really know how much information a given volume of space can contain until we have a Quantum Theory of Gravity. * > Another issue with Everett's theory is that, if consciousness is > truly unnecessary for the functioning of MWI, then how can you explain the > experimentally verified phenomenon of the Quantum Zeno effect? Briefly, > quantum states do not transition while they are being observed. So a > radioactive atom would never decay so long as someone was continually > observing it. So a radioactive atom would never decay so long as someone > was continually observing it. Why would the universe always wait for you to > look away before splitting into multiple quantum states? * Suppose an atom has a halflife of one second, the universe splits and so do I after one second. In one universe the atom decays and in the other it doesn't. In the universe where it didn't decay after another second the universe splits again, and again in one universe it decays but in the other it has not, it survived for 2 full seconds. So there will be a version of me that observes this atom with a one second half life surviving for 3 seconds, and 4 seconds, and 5 years, and 6 centuries, and you name it. By utilizing a series of increasingly complex and difficult procedures in the lab it is possible for the lab to be in the universe that contains observers that see the atom surviving for an arbitrary length of time. But the longer the time and the more atoms involved the more difficult the procedures become and is soon ridiculously impractical. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 15:17:19 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 08:17:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> On 2020-8-22 06:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > How about using a different font or color from the post you are replying > to?? That stands out and cannot be mistaken for anything else.? ?bill w In mail I am conservative, preferring plain text over HTML. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 15:24:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:24:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> Message-ID: anton wrote > > In mail I am conservative, preferring plain text over HTML. > > -- And I am for whatever it takes to solve a problem. bill w > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 17:11:32 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:11:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> Message-ID: <62b5e282-e2a8-8740-1baf-8e0e3b3bec0b@pobox.com> On 2020-8-22 08:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > anton wrote > > > In mail I am conservative, preferring plain text over HTML. > > -- And I am for whatever it takes to solve a problem.? bill w > *\\*? Anton Sherwood? *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > Even in smaller type, your comment here is well hidden. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 17:18:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:18:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: <62b5e282-e2a8-8740-1baf-8e0e3b3bec0b@pobox.com> References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> <62b5e282-e2a8-8740-1baf-8e0e3b3bec0b@pobox.com> Message-ID: anton wrote - Even in smaller type, your comment here is well hidden. Smaller type? Huh? Hidden, huh? Please explain. bill w On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 12:13 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-22 08:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > anton wrote > > > > > > In mail I am conservative, preferring plain text over HTML. > > > > -- And I am for whatever it takes to solve a problem. bill w > > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > > Even in smaller type, your comment here is well hidden. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 17:44:00 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:44:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was:... In-Reply-To: References: <006b01d6782c$800602a0$801207e0$@rainier66.com> <9fb7eeba-62a4-f302-e247-dc70dceb9402@pobox.com> <3268e821-1a55-71ba-ff7b-8896c0ff5a02@pobox.com> <62b5e282-e2a8-8740-1baf-8e0e3b3bec0b@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-22 10:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > anton wrote - Even in smaller type, your comment here is well hidden. > > Smaller type?? Huh?? Hidden, huh?? Please explain.? ?bill w On my screen, your comments are consistently smaller than what you're quoting. If you don't see the same effect, well, that's a point against your thesis that HTML formatting helps in distinguishing between comments and quotations. You put your comment ("And I am for whatever it takes to solve a problem. bill w") beside the dash that begins my signature block, not even on its own line. Far from solving any problem, if you ask me. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 17:59:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:59:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 1:20 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved > human psychological trait. Being captured by neighboring tribes was a > relatively common event for women in human history, if anything like the > recent history of the few remaining primitive tribes. In some of those > tribes (Yanomamo, for instance) practically everyone in the tribe is > descended from a captive within the last three generations.* If you're right then those women must have come from tribes that lost wars because they didn't have the religious gene, or whatever the gene was that was needed to make them or their offspring good soldiers, but nevertheless the genes the women did have were quite successful evolutionarily speaking even if they didn't ensure military victory. So a gene to give up, not make trouble and to just surrender might have a better chance of getting into the next generation than a gene to fight on heroically to the death against impossible odds would. And if a gene can't do better at getting into the next generation than the competition then it won't spread through the population. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:04:57 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:04:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Message-ID: wrote: snip >>... OK, now what? >>... The Patriot Act is still there. >>...Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act would not involve politics?... Keith > Hmmm... Let's think about this. We live in times where we have a legal system which can indict a ham sandwich. This is nothing new of course. We have a clear case where power was abused. I fear the whole notion of Patriot Act is too popular with the holders of power, regardless of party, to let go of it. We all know the threat of being prosecuted based on phony evidence, and we know our own FBI was caught creating phony evidence. > Every country in the world has a government which could threaten its own people with phony evidence. Ja I do think that topic transcends politics. This is about corruption and power being handed to government in a crisis, the eventual result of which was corruption. I can imagine no subject more subject to politics than trying to control corruption. And talking about it would rapidly get down to the physical level. I think there may be a hardware solution to corruption, but if I try to discuss it here, I see no possibility of evading politics. >From here it goes to stealth encryption, which has been on my mind for some time. We have the bandwidth, and the algorithms to do it seem simple enough: send messages in the form of graphics with the messages coded in the least significant bit of each pixel. This was done over 20 years ago when Setgo was written by the famous extropian Romano Machado. I mentioned it here back in May.> > Keith, I don't understand why these kinds of meta-discussions need to devolve into pointless political nonsense and quarrelling, I really don't. The biggest meta-question around is why the US is taking a course similar to that Germany took under Hitler. How long could a discussion of this go without mentioning the current (irrational) POTUS? Keith From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:31:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:31:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *> I think there may be a hardware solution to corruption, but if I try > to discuss it here, I see no possibility ofevading politics.* I'm not sure what you have in mind but it sure sounds like an interesting topic, it's a pity we're forbidden from discussing it. > The biggest meta-question around is why the US is taking a course similar > to that Germany took under Hitler. Exactly. > *How long could a discussion of this go without mentioning the current > (irrational) POTUS?* It would be like discussing the history of relativity without mentioning Einstein, or writing a 1000 page book about Bill Gates without one word about him being rich or about him knowing what a computer was. In other words it would be silly. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:40:56 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:40:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me. On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 8:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Interesting question: who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? bill w > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 7:04 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> wrote: >> >> snip >> >> > OK, now what? >> >> > The Patriot Act is still there. >> >> Spike, do you seriously think that getting rid of the Patriot Act >> would not involve politics? >> >> I suppose it's not much crazier than Trump floating the idea of >> pardoning Edward Snowden. >> >> Keith >> >> PS >> https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/21/us/sturgis-motorcyle-rally-sd-covid-nebraska-trnd/index.html >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:41:41 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:41:41 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, no? SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2020, at 1:31 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > I think there may be a hardware solution to corruption, but if I try to discuss it here, I see no possibility of >> evading politics. > > I'm not sure what you have in mind but it sure sounds like an interesting topic, it's a pity we're forbidden from discussing it. > >> > The biggest meta-question around is why the US is taking a course similar to that Germany took under Hitler. > > Exactly. > >> > How long could a discussion of this go without mentioning the current (irrational) POTUS? > > It would be like discussing the history of relativity without mentioning Einstein, or writing a 1000 page book about Bill Gates without one word about him being rich or about him knowing what a computer was. In other words it would be silly. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:43:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:43:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 11:06 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I can imagine no subject more subject to politics than trying to > control corruption. And talking about it would rapidly get down to > the physical level. I think there may be a hardware solution to > corruption, but if I try to discuss it here, I see no possibility of > evading politics. > I do, under strictly limited guidelines, trying to fix the problem in general to prevent future instances rather than to complain or even comment much on any current instance. FIrst, define the problem that the hardware would fix - make a specification for hardware. State what exactly this hardware would do, without using the word "corruption" or other likely-to-have-a-viewer-dependent-meaning words - as in, stick to words that even those who defend corruption (though they do not call it that) would agree with opponents of corruption on the meaning of. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:44:18 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:44:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <721C5A7E-99C6-4332-93DF-7C00D4374081@gmail.com> Well, if the gene is sex-differentiated it would prove even more useful. SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2020, at 12:59 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 1:20 AM Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: >> > >> > From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved human psychological trait. Being captured by neighboring tribes was a relatively common event for women in human history, if anything like the recent history of the few remaining primitive tribes. In some of those tribes (Yanomamo, for instance) practically everyone in the tribe is descended from a captive within the last three generations. > > If you're right then those women must have come from tribes that lost wars because they didn't have the religious gene, or whatever the gene was that was needed to make them or their offspring good soldiers, but nevertheless the genes the women did have were quite successful evolutionarily speaking even if they didn't ensure military victory. So a gene to give up, not make trouble and to just surrender might have a better chance of getting into the next generation than a gene to fight on heroically to the death against impossible odds would. And if a gene can't do better at getting into the next generation than the competition then it won't spread through the population. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 18:46:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:46:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] clark bar: wasRE: Exi Message-ID: <008d01d678b4$90191e60$b04b5b20$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: > I think there may be a hardware solution to corruption, but if I try to discuss it here, I see no possibility of evading politics. I'm not sure what you have in mind but it sure sounds like an interesting topic, it's a pity we're forbidden from discussing it?John K Clark But we are not forbidden from forming an offlist subgroup, the way we usta do 25 yrs ago, when we were younger than we are now. Eh, we have been kicked outta rougher bars than this one. They said I was drunk and disorderly in public. No way! I was disorderly in bar. They threw me into the public. We could form an ExI-US-politics site, nominate a moderator and so on. I nominate John Clark to moderate that. Let anyone in who wants to come come, no requirement to be USian. I propose that John Clark set the rules of behavior and be the subgroup owner and maintainer of the archives. This aughta be interesting. If John accepts and if he builds it, we will come. If he wants people to be able to fight and abuse each other there, well, it?s his bar, so it?s his rules. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:47:38 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:47:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> References: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4A812427-E2E1-41A6-A2E9-8CAE341E9D00@gmail.com> Do controlled burns in the winter. SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2020, at 8:55 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 3:47 AM > To: Extropy Chat > Cc: BillK > Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history > > August 22, 2020 > by Olga R. Rodriguez and Janie Har > > ml> > Quote: > Lightning-sparked wildfires in Northern California exploded in size Friday > ... > > At least 100,000 people are under evacuation orders. > --------------- > >> ...California is getting an early start to the fall fire season. > The news says that the air around San Francisco is polluted with smoke and > hard to breathe. > >> ...I hope Spike and our SF people are OK. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > > > It's been smoky as hell around here but at the moment isn't bad BillK. I > live within easy walking distance of the evacuation area. Our scoutmaster > and his family, along with several friends over on the northeast side of San > Jose have been evacuated at least twice, and might be out of their homes > again. I offered to let him come down and make our camper a temporary home, > but they instead chose to bring in cots and camp out in his office (he does > have a nice office.) > > Friends to the south have had to take road trip to Oregon because they can't > breathe down there. > > My immediate concern is for a camping place that is on Highway 9 in Santa > Cruz county. My friend is an IT guy, walked away from a career at Stanford, > bought that park and put all kindsa cool high techy stuff in there, such as > 5G. If you have the equipment to take advantage of it, the internet at his > park is terrific. Cotillion Gardens, check it out, great internet, > beautiful surroundings. We hope. > > The firefighters were making a most heroic stand yesterday, brought in a > thousand fellers, dozers, planes, choppers, everything they have with a > mission: Hold the line at Highway 9. > > We don't know if Cotillion Gardens stands this morning or is in ashes, but > here's the real problem: in that familiar song about this land is your land, > that bit about "...from the redwood forests..." is Santa Cruz county. That > campground and the homes up there are built among the giant redwoods. > > If you go there, you notice that the bark at the base of every giant redwood > is charred, because those forests burn once in a while. It's what forests > do. It doesn't hurt the big trees, but it slays the small ones, and it > causes the tiny cones produced by those giant trees to open up and > germinate. Giant coastal redwoods are dependent on fire, as a birth-control > device in a sense: it both starts new trees and kills off the younger > smaller ones, thus spreading out the generations of trees and keeps them > from over-competing with each other. > > It is a beautiful place up there. Do go see it while you can. > > Giant redwoods like fire, they need fire, humans do not like fire. We work > to stop it. Sometimes we succeed and when we do, over time, fuel > accumulates. Those redwood forests get increasingly eager to burn. We > might douse it this time, but if we do, there is still more fuel down there. > Every time we stop the fire, it gets harder to stop. > > Fire kills some of the trees. In the long run lack of fire kills all of > them. > > Suggestions welcome. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 18:51:10 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:51:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3bb23128-987f-29e9-626f-1890c0c1fb89@pobox.com> On 2020-8-21 17:09, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Interesting question:? who is in favor of pardoning Snowden?? bill w Cranks who think lawbreaking under color of authority is a bad thing. As if violating people's rights with impunity were not the whole point of the state. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 18:58:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:58:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, no? SR Ballard Sounds like SR is in. Good chance Keith is in. John, if he is willing to run it (SR is too nice for that role I fear) I am in, might be others would come. Build it John. The internationals wouldn?t complain because they would be visitors in a sense. Imagine a bar with a big NO BITCHING sign. {8^D I would offer to moderate but I fear my presence might be intermittent, depending on how things go these next coupla weeks, and? what happens with that covid data from the bike rally of all things. If those numbers are really low, we have some thinking and work to do at the school. If they are really high, we have work to do at the school. If those numbers come back at about what I expect, we still have work to do at the school. It would be tragically interesting methinks. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:58:05 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 11:58:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 3:49 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I hope Spike and our SF people are OK. > The fires are unlikely to reach my house. Between the air conditioning and filtration I already had for other reasons, little of the smoke is getting inside so long as we leave the doors closed. Thanks to coronavirus, I rarely leave the house these days anyway; some days, just picking up the newspaper, mail, and food deliveries is literally the only time I spend outdoors. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 18:57:57 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:57:57 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, > no? > Ghetto groups don't work, especially for a low volume list like this one. I'm not interested in every topic this list discusses, but they don't make me angry, I just ignore posts that don't interest me. I don't understand why that's so hard. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 19:11:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:11:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? In-Reply-To: <721C5A7E-99C6-4332-93DF-7C00D4374081@gmail.com> References: <721C5A7E-99C6-4332-93DF-7C00D4374081@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 3:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well, if the gene is sex-differentiated it would prove even more useful. > The Y chromosome that only males have is by far the smallest of the 23 human chromosomes, it just doesn't have many genes on it. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 19:31:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:31:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: <4A812427-E2E1-41A6-A2E9-8CAE341E9D00@gmail.com> References: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> <4A812427-E2E1-41A6-A2E9-8CAE341E9D00@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003a01d678ba$d8fd08c0$8af71a40$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history >...Do controlled burns in the winter. SR Ballard It's been proposed, and is done (in a sense (depending on how you one interprets the clearing and burning the slash piles.)) Unknown which discourages the fire department from doing more of that: it is unclear who is liable if the fire gets outta control, which is always a risk. Suppose the fire marshal is burning slash piles and accidentally sets someone's cabin on fire. Who pays? Do we? On the other hand, the electric company didn't start this one (as it did a coupla years ago (when my friend's house in Paradise California was sent into the stratosphere by PG&E (and fortunately didn't send him and his bride up with it.))) https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/879008760/pg-e-pleads-guilty-on-2018-californ ia-camp-fire-our-equipment-started-that-fire PG&E was found guilty, but it is chapter 11. Our friends are lucky if they see a nickel on the dollar of what that place was worth. If the county government did that, they couldn't pay. If the state government did that, they couldn't pay. If the federals did that, they couldn't pay. These latest fires were started by a freak lightning storm, so we can sue god, but from the size of this fire and the structures already lost, that guy couldn't pay either, even with the cows on a kilohill: https://biblia.com/bible/esv/psalm/50/10-11 God has a lotta money, but the cost of this fire would put even god into chapter 11. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 19:34:39 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:34:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Oh no Spike, I?m not too nice to be a mod for it, I?m too abrasive. The slightest bit of power makes me a nervous wreck while simultaneously going straight to my head. Paradox or not? SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2020, at 1:58 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > > Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning > > It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, no? > > SR Ballard > > > Sounds like SR is in. Good chance Keith is in. John, if he is willing to run it (SR is too nice for that role I fear) I am in, might be others would come. > > Build it John. The internationals wouldn?t complain because they would be visitors in a sense. Imagine a bar with a big NO BITCHING sign. {8^D > > I would offer to moderate but I fear my presence might be intermittent, depending on how things go these next coupla weeks, and? what happens with that covid data from the bike rally of all things. If those numbers are really low, we have some thinking and work to do at the school. If they are really high, we have work to do at the school. If those numbers come back at about what I expect, we still have work to do at the school. > > It would be tragically interesting methinks. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 19:46:00 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:46:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? Message-ID: John Clark wrote: snip > If you're right then those women must have come from tribes that lost wars Or lost women in raids. > because they didn't have the religious gene, or whatever the gene was that was needed to make them or their offspring good soldiers, but nevertheless the genes the women did have were quite successful evolutionarily speaking even if they didn't ensure military victory. The traits behind Stockholm syndrome were probably selected in women since captured males were usually just killed. There is no reason the psychological mechanisms don't exist in men. > So a gene to give up, not make trouble and to just surrender might have a better chance of getting into the next generation than a gene to fight on heroically to the death against impossible odds would. Here there is a sex difference. Males might as well fight on to the death since that's what is going to happen to them if they were captured. > And if a gene can't do better at getting into the next generation than the competition then it won't spread through the population. Winning left more copies of genes than losing. Losing got the genes into the winning group. The traits probably became universal before 60,000 years ago. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 19:47:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:47:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01d678bd$05dab660$11902320$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 11:58 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat > wrote: > It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, no? Ghetto groups don't work, especially for a low volume list like this one. I'm not interested in every topic this list discusses, but they don't make me angry, I just ignore posts that don't interest me. I don't understand why that's so hard. John K Clark I disagree with the notion that ghetto groups do not work. We had some terrific unleashed discussions, and the archives are not public (this last part is important.) Unfortunately a lot of it was never preserved either. What I wouldn?t give for our privacy/encryption discussion from about 2002 when Hal was with us. And when Lee Corbin was with us, I would pay good money if anyone thought to archive that rich ore. I can see a lotta value in a politics subgroup. ExiMod wouldn?t hafta tell us to take it outside. ExiMod could tell us to take it to John?s Bar next door, where fighting is allowed. If John doesn?t want to moderate (or join) a politics sub-group, I nominate Keith Henson. He is highly respected. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 19:52:49 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 12:52:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? Message-ID: Dave Sill wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 8:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> Who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? >Me. Me too. Keith From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:06:28 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:06:28 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? In-Reply-To: References: <721C5A7E-99C6-4332-93DF-7C00D4374081@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes but there is thousands fold more opportunity for genes on normal chromosomes which are only activated by proteins or hormones which are produced as a result of sex chromosomes. So it is entirely possible that these behaviors are sex differentiated even if the gene isn't on the y chromosome. On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 15:43 John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 3:03 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > Well, if the gene is sex-differentiated it would prove even more useful. >> > > The Y chromosome that only males have is by far the smallest of the 23 > human chromosomes, it just doesn't have many genes on it. > > John K Clark > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:08:51 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:08:51 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <005e01d678bd$05dab660$11902320$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <005e01d678bd$05dab660$11902320$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I will certainly be a part of any political group that is formed. bill w On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 3:05 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *John Clark via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, August 22, 2020 11:58 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* John Clark > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:47 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > It is entirely possible to have an off list political discussion group, > no? > > > > Ghetto groups don't work, especially for a low volume list like this one. > I'm not interested in every topic this list discusses, but they don't make > me angry, I just ignore posts that don't interest me. I don't understand > why that's so hard. > > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > I disagree with the notion that ghetto groups do not work. We had some > terrific unleashed discussions, and the archives are not public (this last > part is important.) Unfortunately a lot of it was never preserved either. > What I wouldn?t give for our privacy/encryption discussion from about 2002 > when Hal was with us. And when Lee Corbin was with us, I would pay good > money if anyone thought to archive that rich ore. > > > > I can see a lotta value in a politics subgroup. ExiMod wouldn?t hafta > tell us to take it outside. ExiMod could tell us to take it to John?s Bar > next door, where fighting is allowed. > > > > If John doesn?t want to moderate (or join) a politics sub-group, I > nominate Keith Henson. He is highly respected. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 20:10:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:10:57 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning Oh no Spike, I?m not too nice to be a mod for it, I?m too abrasive. The slightest bit of power makes me a nervous wreck while simultaneously going straight to my head. Paradox or not? SR Ballard SR you come across as a nice person. But no worries, we don?t want to pressure anyone into moderating an ExiPolitics group. Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. Then we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! I propose we wait until Keith accepts or specifically tells us no. I would volunteer if everyone understands I might be out for several days at a time and I have no intentions of encouraging people to be nice. That subgroup would be unregistered, we wouldn?t use the ExI name, we would just be some fellers (plus SR and any other ladies who wish to be in such a raucous bar) who met each other in a polite bar and wanted a lowbrow place where we can shout and fight, that sorta thing. If we formed that, ExI might be a kinder gentler place, making ExiMod?s job easier. Keith, what say ye, me lad? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:18:01 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:18:01 -0400 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Me too. Also to pardon Chelsea Manning and Ross Ulbricht. On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 16:10 Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave Sill wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 8:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? > > >Me. > > Me too. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:19:41 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:19:41 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Did Evolution produce a gene for good soldiers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 4:01 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *Males might as well fight on to the death since that's what is going to > happen to them if they werecaptured.* But those males had mothers, and they had genes not to fight to the death, and so there was a 50% chance the males inherited them from her, the males also had fathers, and they may have had those same "not to fight to the death" genes for the very same reason. > > *Winning [wars] left more copies of genes than losing.* Maybe, but evolution can quickly become extremely complicated and counter intuitive, so that is very far from being obvious. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 20:28:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:28:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?I propose we wait until Keith accepts or specifically tells us no. ? >?Keith, what say ye, me lad? spike Then the obvious suddenly occurred to me: we don?t need a moderator for this purpose. If we aren?t required to be nice to each other, then what difference would it make if the moderator is temporarily on other matters? He has nothing to do there, ja? Well, OK then. I propose we start an email circle (or if someone knows how to set up a single address group then that is cool (we just need to keep the ExI name off it (treating that as Max?s property.))) Since this is a temporary (most likely (won?t be all that relevant after November 4 (assuming we don?t have a disputed election (which is looking scary-likely)))) so we could just collect email @s. I will do it if you wish. Won?t scold anyone for being rude or harsh there. We could compete with the roughest biker bars, but with more interesting discussions than the merits of the ElectraGlide vs the Road King. Keith, John, SR, BillW, I know we have others who will come in and laugh at us. Derision would be allowed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:33:06 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:33:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse > lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. Then > we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! > And if the person thus selected simply refuses the job? You can call someone "moderator" but it's usually not possible to make them moderate if they don't want to. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:48:11 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:48:11 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm down for an unmoderated political cluster fuck. Count me in On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 16:45 spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > >?I propose we wait until Keith accepts or specifically tells us no. > > ? > > >?Keith, what say ye, me lad? spike > > > > > > Then the obvious suddenly occurred to me: we don?t need a moderator for > this purpose. If we aren?t required to be nice to each other, then what > difference would it make if the moderator is temporarily on other matters? > He has nothing to do there, ja? > > > > Well, OK then. > > > > I propose we start an email circle (or if someone knows how to set up a > single address group then that is cool (we just need to keep the ExI name > off it (treating that as Max?s property.))) > > > > Since this is a temporary (most likely (won?t be all that relevant after > November 4 (assuming we don?t have a disputed election (which is looking > scary-likely)))) so we could just collect email @s. > > > > I will do it if you wish. Won?t scold anyone for being rude or harsh > there. We could compete with the roughest biker bars, but with more > interesting discussions than the merits of the ElectraGlide vs the Road > King. > > > > Keith, John, SR, BillW, I know we have others who will come in and laugh > at us. Derision would be allowed. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:50:11 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:50:11 -0500 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: <003a01d678ba$d8fd08c0$8af71a40$@rainier66.com> References: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> <4A812427-E2E1-41A6-A2E9-8CAE341E9D00@gmail.com> <003a01d678ba$d8fd08c0$8af71a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <65358465-2BDC-4FE6-98C8-144DFD12D684@gmail.com> My father has done controlled burns, 1-2x per year at his work for about 15 years now, and about 8 years traveling all over Florida on burn team. Now, Florida is of course much wetter, but wetter also usually means the fuel builds up faster. I don?t know that he?s ever been on a fire which damaged property. In every situation where it was even a worry, they get the FD to proactively hose down the houses. No property or civilian has ever been hurt during these burns he has worked on, but a few years ago some firefighters cleared out of the wrong valley. They went into their emergency tents but the blaze was much too hot and so they were quite done in the middle by the time the fire had passed. They changed radio procedures after that (they thought they were in the safe valley but instead had left the safe one to go into the dangerous one on accident), but my mother has never let him go back, and now he is too old. It could probably just be written into law that burns have some kind of qualified immunity, where they are only liable for damages if there is a clear and flagrant disregard for health and safety. SR Ballard > On Aug 22, 2020, at 2:31 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of SR > Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history > > > >> ...Do controlled burns in the winter. > > SR Ballard > > > It's been proposed, and is done (in a sense (depending on how you one > interprets the clearing and burning the slash piles.)) > > Unknown which discourages the fire department from doing more of that: it is > unclear who is liable if the fire gets outta control, which is always a > risk. Suppose the fire marshal is burning slash piles and accidentally sets > someone's cabin on fire. Who pays? Do we? > > On the other hand, the electric company didn't start this one (as it did a > coupla years ago (when my friend's house in Paradise California was sent > into the stratosphere by PG&E (and fortunately didn't send him and his bride > up with it.))) > > https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/879008760/pg-e-pleads-guilty-on-2018-californ > ia-camp-fire-our-equipment-started-that-fire > > PG&E was found guilty, but it is chapter 11. Our friends are lucky if they > see a nickel on the dollar of what that place was worth. > > If the county government did that, they couldn't pay. If the state > government did that, they couldn't pay. If the federals did that, they > couldn't pay. > > These latest fires were started by a freak lightning storm, so we can sue > god, but from the size of this fire and the structures already lost, that > guy couldn't pay either, even with the cows on a kilohill: > > https://biblia.com/bible/esv/psalm/50/10-11 > > God has a lotta money, but the cost of this fire would put even god into > chapter 11. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 20:59:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 13:59:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:33 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Adrian Tymes Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. Then we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! And if the person thus selected simply refuses the job? You can call someone "moderator" but it's usually not possible to make them moderate if they don't want to. Brute force, I tells ye! Ja, but in this case, there is nothing to do. Alls ya hasta do is collect some email @s. If people are allowed to insult each other and be mean (hey, nothing personal, just politics) then it is an easy job, one I will take if no one else wants to. We shoulda done this a long time ago. Adrian, you used to join those sub-groups didn?t ya? Seems I recall we had a Single Stage To Orbit group back when Greg Burch was with us, you mighta joined us? How long has it been since we had a robust ghetto group? A long time I think. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 21:15:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:15:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <015301d678c9$55ef8b10$01cea130$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat >?I'm down for an unmoderated political cluster fuck. Count me in? Will OK if I toss in any name I have ever seen post on any topic relating to American politics, so far I have these: Will BillW SR John (?) Keith (?) Adrian (?) Anton (?) Mike Dougherty (?) Stuart (?) Dave Sill (?) Dan the Book Man (?) Stathis (?) Dylan (?) Brent (?) Rafal (?) spike Haven?t heard from Rafal in a while and I know he is busy. Others are certainly welcome but I want to be very clear: this subgroup should be politics only, profanity perfectly OK, insults expected. If it gets too polite, the bouncer will ask that you take it outside. We don?t allow soft reasonable discussion in a rowdy politics bar. Gentlemanly behavior will get your ass booted out. Go next door to ExI for nice, etc. I want to archive this stuff but not put any of it on the ExI site. Ja? Sound like a plan? Anyone else? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 21:19:53 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:19:53 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <015301d678c9$55ef8b10$01cea130$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> <015301d678c9$55ef8b10$01cea130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'm in, although I would prefer no archiving. I actually run a list that has no moderation or rules other than what is discussed on list, stays on list so the idea proposed here appeals to me. If you're looking for a cheap provider, simplelists is very good. It's what I use right now for mine. I'd chip in if any contributions are needed. On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 5:15 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > > > >?I'm down for an unmoderated political cluster fuck. Count me in? Will > > > > > > > > > > > > OK if I toss in any name I have ever seen post on any topic relating to > American politics, so far I have these: > > > > Will > > BillW > > SR > > John (?) > > Keith (?) > > Adrian (?) > > Anton (?) > > Mike Dougherty (?) > > Stuart (?) > > Dave Sill (?) > > Dan the Book Man (?) > > Stathis (?) > > Dylan (?) > > Brent (?) > > Rafal (?) > > spike > > > > > > Haven?t heard from Rafal in a while and I know he is busy. Others are > certainly welcome but I want to be very clear: this subgroup should be > politics only, profanity perfectly OK, insults expected. If it gets too > polite, the bouncer will ask that you take it outside. We don?t allow soft > reasonable discussion in a rowdy politics bar. Gentlemanly behavior will > get your ass booted out. Go next door to ExI for nice, etc. > > > > I want to archive this stuff but not put any of it on the ExI site. Ja? > > > > Sound like a plan? > > > > Anyone else? > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 21:37:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:37:34 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <00bc01d678c2$cb37d230$61a77690$@rainier66.com> <015301d678c9$55ef8b10$01cea130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <017f01d678cc$72bdc830$58395890$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning I'm in, although I would prefer no archiving. I actually run a list that has no moderation or rules other than what is discussed on list, stays on list so the idea proposed here appeals to me. If you're looking for a cheap provider, simplelists is very good. It's what I use right now for mine. I'd chip in if any contributions are needed. Hi Dylan, OK sure but I would suggest since it is just a private affair between friends shouting insults at each other, we hold it to just a simple collection of email @s. No cost, no bother. I am also on a private email circle which has always been all politics. We stop just short of death threats but no one takes it personally, just politics. They are all considered friendly almost death threats. Does anyone already have a system set up which would be better? I agree with no-archiving. Remember fondly. An offlist discussion mentioned an offlist group we had in about 2001 which included stuff of which I have zero recollection, a subgroup flame war between two participants. Perhaps it really is better to not archive and let it fade in the mirror, specifically on politics. That encryption group however, the one Hal set up, oh what I wouldn?t give for that archive. I think we witnessed Hal come up with the basic idea for BitCoin, and I think Satoshi Nakamoto was on there, who wasn?t an ExI guy but a friend of Hal?s. So? the proposal: a temporary exi-politics group, no archiving, no moderation, no polite discussion, personal insults fine but stop short of death threats. Other thoughts? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 21:53:43 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 14:53:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 2:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:33 PM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* Adrian Tymes > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 1:29 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse > lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. Then > we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! > > > > And if the person thus selected simply refuses the job? You can call > someone "moderator" but it's usually not possible to make them moderate if > they don't want to. > > > > > > Brute force, I tells ye! > Which does nothing. > Adrian, you used to join those sub-groups didn?t ya? Seems I recall we > had a Single Stage To Orbit group back when Greg Burch was with us, you > mighta joined us? > I saw first hand that they were ineffective. I'll pass on joining this one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 22:15:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:15:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Brute force, I tells ye! >?Which does nothing? Ja I was hoping the politics exi-ghetto moderator would be a nothing job. Adrian, you used to join those sub-groups didn?t ya? Seems I recall we had a Single Stage To Orbit group back when Greg Burch was with us, you mighta joined us? >?I saw first hand that they were ineffective. I'll pass on joining this one? OK. Anyone else? I am volunteering to collect the @s and maintain the list, but nothing else, not even enforce the strict requirement to be mean and angry. Violators will not be prosecuted. Now that this looks like it might come together, I propose we do allow politeness in this small forum, should one feel they just can?t help themselves from spewing an occasional blast of kind and generous words directed at some hapful individual. Shall we allow human kindness on a political forum? Has it ever been done with success? Perhaps we should experiment with allowing gentle behavior, then if it doesn?t work out, disallow it. Proposed list remaining: Will BillW SR spike John (?) Keith (?) Anton (?) Mike Dougherty (?) Stuart (?) Dave Sill (?) Dan the Book Man (?) Stathis (?) Dylan (?) Brent (?) Rafal (?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 22:22:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:22:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We don't need everybody. In fact, I'd like it if no one joined who is easily offended. I have been shy about using my alter ego, which is a big tease. I would not want that misinterpreted. The heavier the sarcasm the better I say. I also say that a moderator will need to stop posts that are ad hominem attacks (real ones, not teases), rather than attacks on the issues. It should be interesting. I get along well with nearly everyone, save for six or eight of you morons. bill w On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 5:17 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > > Brute force, I tells ye! > > > > >?Which does nothing? > > > > Ja I was hoping the politics exi-ghetto moderator would be a nothing job. > > > > > > Adrian, you used to join those sub-groups didn?t ya? Seems I recall we > had a Single Stage To Orbit group back when Greg Burch was with us, you > mighta joined us? > > > > >?I saw first hand that they were ineffective. I'll pass on joining this > one? > > > > > > OK. Anyone else? I am volunteering to collect the @s and maintain the > list, but nothing else, not even enforce the strict requirement to be mean > and angry. Violators will not be prosecuted. > > > > Now that this looks like it might come together, I propose we do allow > politeness in this small forum, should one feel they just can?t help > themselves from spewing an occasional blast of kind and generous words > directed at some hapful individual. Shall we allow human kindness on a > political forum? Has it ever been done with success? Perhaps we should > experiment with allowing gentle behavior, then if it doesn?t work out, > disallow it. > > > > Proposed list remaining: > > > > Will > > BillW > > SR > > spike > > John (?) > > Keith (?) > > Anton (?) > > Mike Dougherty (?) > > Stuart (?) > > Dave Sill (?) > > Dan the Book Man (?) > > Stathis (?) > > Dylan (?) > > Brent (?) > > Rafal (?) > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sat Aug 22 22:21:35 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:21:35 -0400 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Got a friend/colleague in Bonny Doon lost his place Wednesday. Keith knows him too. Our friend might even have helped hook up your friend @ Cotillon Gardens just a couple miles away on the other side of Hwy 9, because he's a big-time radio ham. Other friends/colleagues were forced to leave with little in hand, fate of home unknown, while more have had to evacuate, fate of dwelling also unknown. For quite some time now, life in the Golden State has been looking like the dystopia depicted in /Nature's End/ by Whitley Streiber and James Kunetka (1986). K3 On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 06:55:54 -0700, espike at rainier66.com> wrote: [snip] > My immediate concern is for a camping place that is on Highway 9 in > Santa > Cruz county. My friend is an IT guy, walked away from a career at > Stanford, > bought that park and put all kindsa cool high techy stuff in there, > such as > 5G. If you have the equipment to take advantage of it, the internet at > his > park is terrific. Cotillion Gardens, check it out, great internet, > beautiful surroundings. We hope. > > The firefighters were making a most heroic stand yesterday, brought in > a > thousand fellers, dozers, planes, choppers, everything they have with a > mission: Hold the line at Highway 9. From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 22:33:58 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:33:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-22 13:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse > lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. > Then we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! Traditionally a new Speaker of the House of Commons is dragged to the chair by force, because the Speaker's job was originally to speak to the monarch on behalf of the Commons, a dangerous role. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 22:35:19 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:35:19 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 6:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > I also say that a moderator will need to stop posts that are ad hominem > attacks Nobody ever died from an ad hominem attack. John K Clark > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 22:36:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:36:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting Message-ID: <01e001d678d4$aacaddf0$006099d0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 3:23 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning We don't need everybody. In fact, I'd like it if no one joined who is easily offended. I have been shy about using my alter ego, which is a big tease. I would not want that misinterpreted. The heavier the sarcasm the better I say. I also say that a moderator will need to stop posts that are ad hominem attacks (real ones, not teases), rather than attacks on the issues. It should be interesting. I get along well with nearly everyone, save for six or eight of you morons. bill w What if? one reluctantly uses one?s alter ego, one?s evil twin? then everybody likes the mean guy better? Then every time you try to be your usual nice self, everyone intentionally insults you to alter your ego, and get the edgy guy back. The mind boggles. BillW suggests a moderator will need to stop ad hominem attacks. BUT I DISAGREE WITH THE SILLY GOOF! Oh wait, never mind, we are still on the main list, my apologies. What I meant was: I see your point sir, but I wish to disagree with that notion. We are intentionally creating a temporary mud hole in which to angrily wallow. This is the inherent nature of politics. I see it kinda like the rassling show, where huge men argue and yell in each other?s faces, get in the ring and pound each other, then go to the locker room and resume their discussion of PG Wodehouse. We could shout and rassle there, then ExI is the locker room. spike Proposed list remaining: Will BillW SR spike John (?) Keith (?) Anton (?) Mike Dougherty (?) Stuart (?) Dave Sill (?) Dan the Book Man (?) Stathis (?) Dylan (?) Brent (?) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 22:37:42 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:37:42 -0400 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 4:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave Sill wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 8:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >> Who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? > > >Me. > > Me too. > And Me. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 22:44:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:44:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01fd01d678d5$baadd550$30097ff0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On 2020-8-22 13:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> Hey, that?s idea: if no one wants to do that, we can set up a reverse > lottery, where the person chosen is the loser rather than the winner. > Then we FORCE the poor blighter into moderating! >...Traditionally a new Speaker of the House of Commons is dragged to the chair by force, because the Speaker's job was originally to speak to the monarch on behalf of the Commons, a dangerous role. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org Cool thanks for that. If I am forced to moderate, I refuse to talk to Queen Elizabeth. She gives me the heebie bajeebies with that whole stiff wave business, making her look like she has only one remaining moving part. But I have a theory on that. As ladies age, they get that whole under the arm flap thing going, and they don't like it because it looks too much like their mother and grandmother's flabby triceps that used to gross them out before they developed the same thing for all the same reasons. I won't address her, even if there is little risk of her ordering off with my head. She would do that stiff arm with the flabby tricep and I would be soooo outta there. Anton are you in with our temporary anger mismanagement group? spike From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 22:43:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:43:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-8-22 11:04, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote: > I think there may be a hardware solution to corruption, but if I try > to discuss it here, I see no possibility of evading politics. To some folks, it seems, "political" means "partisan". > From here it goes to stealth encryption, which has been on my mind > for some time. We have the bandwidth, and the algorithms to do it > seem simple enough: send messages in the form of graphics with the > messages coded in the least significant bit of each pixel. I'm pretty sure THEY are wise to that trick. > This was done over 20 years ago when Setgo was written by the famous > extropian Romano Machado. I mentioned it here back in May. Setgo? Oh right, Stego. Where is Romana now? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 22:46:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 15:46:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting Message-ID: <01fe01d678d6$23a8fc60$6afaf520$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 6:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > >>? I also say that a moderator will need to stop posts that are ad hominem attacks >?Nobody ever died from an ad hominem attack. John K Clark Cool we could experiment with weaponized verbiage. John are you in? You are the one who inspired the whole notion. You can be our poster child, ja? spike Proposed list remaining: Will BillW SR spike John (?) Keith (?) Anton (?) Mike Dougherty (?) Stuart (?) Dave Sill (?) Dan the Book Man (?) Stathis (?) Dylan (?) Brent (?) Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Aug 22 23:04:37 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:04:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <01fd01d678d5$baadd550$30097ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <01fd01d678d5$baadd550$30097ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7a2fe058-99cf-5497-b4bf-2cbbf10f5005@pobox.com> On 2020-8-22 15:44, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Anton are you in with our temporary anger mismanagement group? It does not interest me. (No criticism implied.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 23:09:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 18:09:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You have data on that one, John? I suspect that many people have committed suicide because of someone else's opinion of them. bill w On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 5:40 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 6:24 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> > > > I also say that a moderator will need to stop posts that are ad >> hominem attacks > > > Nobody ever died from an ad hominem attack. > > John K Clark > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 23:25:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:25:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 4:10 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat > wrote: Dave Sill > wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020, 8:20 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > wrote: >> Who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? >Me. Me too. And Me. John K Clark I just feel this topic isn?t working out for us. We are all agreeing. We must be doing something wrong. Johnny, are you with us on the political ghetto? After the November election we can resume spilling toxic venom on the main list, if we can get it past ExiMod. ExiMod sounded like ExiMod meant business with that last warning however, and don?t want to annoy ExiMod before ExiMod even gets a chance to warm ExiMod?s chair. Do pardon the clumsy language. I just don?t cotton to the use of they and their for a gender-nonspecific singular. OK Anton is out. We still have these stalwart fighters: Will BillW SR spike John (?) Keith (?) Mike Dougherty (?) Stuart (?) Dave Sill (?) Dan the Book Man (?) Stathis (?) Dylan (?) Brent (?) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 22 23:33:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 16:33:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <024101d678dc$b618dfb0$224a9f10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning You have data on that one, John? I suspect that many people have committed suicide because of someone else's opinion of them. bill w Good point BillW. No suicidal risk-cases allowed on Exi-politics, none. BillW, since you are the new kid on the block (still!) you may not be aware of a disturbing ExI fact: in our small group, we have already had at least two suicides, and it is entirely possible it was three. That?s a tragically high number for a group this small. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 00:26:40 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:26:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Understanding EP was no subject Message-ID: wrote: > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 12:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: snip >>> Keith talks about evolutionary psychology...the puzzling instructions of our own feelings, somehow genetically encoded by evolution. >>...From capture-bonding, the easy to understand, nearly universal evolved human psychological trait. >...Being captured by neighboring tribes ...fraternity bonding by hazing, and sex practices such as sadism/masochism or bondage/discipline." > People who don't have those instincts Just about all of us have the psychological mechanisms for capture-bonding. Subject 10% of the women to this selection pressure over thousands of generations and the traits become fixed. > find it so puzzling why some women stay with abusive partners (I know he's bad to me, she wailed, but I looove him...) The non sexes term is battered person syndrome and yes there are men in relationships who are beaten up regularly by women. How many is hard to tell since men are reluctant to report it. > When I looked into EP it sure makes a lotta sense, and explains why efforts to educate the victims out of those situations so often fail. I ran into EP just as I was getting mixed up in the cult. My question was why people were acting in ways that were clearly not in their interest. EP and Kennita Watson's help allowed me to understand that the cull's "training" caused the release of dopamine and endorphins and to duplicate Tooby's work on capture-bonding. > Unless the training somehow understands the genetic basis of the behavior, it is destined to fail in a way analogous to local owners of malamute. I once explained the genetic basis of the attraction of cults to someone who was out, but massively concerned about his experience. He was relieved to understand that there was a logical reason he and his family had been sucked into the cult. Never tried this on a battered person. It would be interesting to see if an intellectual understanding could help people break out. The capture-bonding cases such as Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart needed outside intervention to get them out of the situation. I don't think either one of them understood what had happened to them at the time. snip > Training away self-destructive feelings is also hard in modern humans who have the instinct to stay with abusive mates. They get too beat up. So... we kinda deal with it by having simulated recreational cruelty I suppose. I don't think so. At least I don't think that battered persons are very likely to get into SM and related. I think it is true that full capture-bonding and some of its partial invocations is pleasurable. Makes total sense for evolution to have done that. > Modern porno shops have all those mysterious things under the counter that one would hesitate to even have explained, not so much out of embarrassment (I am immune to that emotion) but that it is one of those things that people without that instinct would really rather not know. Virtually everyone has the psychological traits. It just gets turned on fully rarely in the modern world. Keith From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 00:32:32 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:32:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting Message-ID: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> When a good idea comes along, I drive it to completion. Whoever thought of creating a subgroup for politics was right on. Oh wait, that was me. The political subgroup exists. If you would like to join that, please drop me a note. We have agreed to engage in friendly banter until about tomorrow evening in flagrant violation of the spirit of that group, just so the late comers don?t miss out. We are not archiving, by gentle-lifeform?s agreement, so when it?s gone, it?s gone, like that thing the young hipsters are using these days, what?s it called? Crack Chat? Something along those lines. ExiMod, do feel free to tell ExI-chatters to take it to ExiPolitics should they feel the savage urge to unleash their innermost passions on the topic, to slake their unquenchable desire to tell the world how America should be run. Internationals welcome, no bitching allowed. Clarification: bitching required, what I meant was no bitching about how the list is dominated by American politics. Of course it is, that?s what it?s for. Political incorrectness is allowed there too. We are among friends. Express yourself as you will. Post me, come on join us, political types! We need you! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 00:59:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 17:59:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d678e8$af78e590$0e6ab0b0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] Exi Political Posting >?The political subgroup exists?Post me, come on join us, political types! We need you! spike Clarification to previous comment: not really. We don?t need anyone. Grumpy bears we are. Solitary, sullen. The older ones among us are crotchety, the younger ones colicky. Disturbing it is, for so far there are only younger ones, plus BillW and me. We feel so outnumbered. If you join us, you are not required to post, or even to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, take arms against a sea of troubles, none of that cool-sounding British crap. Brits welcome of course, but this is an American problem. The less politically-inclined may watch from the bleachers and laugh in derision at the enraged silliness we hope to generate there. ExIMod, send em in please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 01:15:48 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 20:15:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: <024101d678dc$b618dfb0$224a9f10$@rainier66.com> References: <83F91425-7381-4B19-B8EF-4CE264144115@gmail.com> <00a001d678b6$2b4e96c0$81ebc440$@rainier66.com> <007b01d678c0$59778f70$0c66ae50$@rainier66.com> <011f01d678c7$275141b0$75f3c510$@rainier66.com> <01cb01d678d1$b3c553c0$1b4ffb40$@rainier66.com> <024101d678dc$b618dfb0$224a9f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: We are all more or less libertarians, eh? So one of those beliefs is that no one owns our bodies no matter what any law says. Unlike your implication, I do not regard suicide as unfortunate. In a lot of mental or physical pain, presumably, or maybe just tired of life. What is unfortunate is the grieving of the ones left behind. the person left this earth as he wanted to. Celebrate life lived, not mourn death. All of which will strike many as quite unnatural. When my time comes, I hope a few of you will miss me, but no mourning please. Not at all relevant to my life or death. I've had a good run and will have some more, I hope. bill w On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 6:36 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning > > > > You have data on that one, John? I suspect that many people have > committed suicide because of someone else's opinion of them. bill w > > > > > > Good point BillW. No suicidal risk-cases allowed on Exi-politics, none. > > > > BillW, since you are the new kid on the block (still!) you may not be > aware of a disturbing ExI fact: in our small group, we have already had at > least two suicides, and it is entirely possible it was three. That?s a > tragically high number for a group this small. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 06:18:02 2020 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 16:18:02 +1000 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <2b2fa062-3d24-f0bf-633b-15699ae53786@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 22:28, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Yes, that is one of my pet peeves! I think the "reply button" is one of > the worst inventions ever made, if you want to include quoted material you > should be required to laboriously type it all in, but that damn button > makes it too easy; so with long threads you often get a confusing nest of > quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes of quotes. And > then finally we come to new material, two words, "I disagree". Huh? You > disagree with what? > I think gmail's top-quoting thing is horrible. Hiding the quoted material UNDER what you write means a lot of mailing lists are 99.99999% quoted text, it is insane how much stuff people don't realise they are sending on if they use gmail. Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ddraig at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 06:22:22 2020 From: ddraig at gmail.com (ddraig@pobox.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 16:22:22 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <002801d6781b$b97f5bf0$2c7e13d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 22:10, John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Encryption has always been on my mind. Remember the Clipper Chip? > I remember Vince Cate's "click here to be an international arms smuggler" site on offshore.ai. Which I clicked on. Dwayne -- ddraig at pobox.com ddraigbot / NSO / Connery ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e... http://fav.me/dqkgpd our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 23 06:38:06 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 23:38:06 -0700 Subject: [ExI] format grumble, was: Exi JKC Political Posting Final Warning In-Reply-To: References: <2b2fa062-3d24-f0bf-633b-15699ae53786@pobox.com> Message-ID: <933268bc-9eff-8d5b-03ae-6fd211adc013@pobox.com> On 2020-8-22 23:18, ddraig--- via extropy-chat wrote: > I think gmail's top-quoting thing is horrible.? Hiding the quoted > material UNDER what you write means a lot of mailing lists are 99.99999% > quoted text, it is insane how much stuff people don't realise they are > sending on if they use gmail. Like twenty copies of the list footer. I'm on one list with folks who are all, by selection, sophistimacated enough to know better, but don't. I'm aware of exactly one person who has asked for comments on top in reply to him; "I have already heard what I wrote." He's blind. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 09:10:39 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:10:39 +0100 Subject: [ExI] California wildfires some of largest in state history In-Reply-To: <65358465-2BDC-4FE6-98C8-144DFD12D684@gmail.com> References: <004201d6788b$f5558c60$e000a520$@rainier66.com> <4A812427-E2E1-41A6-A2E9-8CAE341E9D00@gmail.com> <003a01d678ba$d8fd08c0$8af71a40$@rainier66.com> <65358465-2BDC-4FE6-98C8-144DFD12D684@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 22:03, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > My father has done controlled burns, 1-2x per year at his work for about 15 years now, and about 8 years traveling all over Florida on burn team. > > Now, Florida is of course much wetter, but wetter also usually means the fuel builds up faster. > > I don?t know that he?s ever been on a fire which damaged property. In every situation where it was even a worry, they get the FD to proactively hose down the houses. > > No property or civilian has ever been hurt during these burns he has worked on, but a few years ago some firefighters cleared out of the wrong valley. They went into their emergency tents but the blaze was much too hot and so they were quite done in the middle by the time the fire had passed. > > SR Ballard ----------------------------------------- This article seems relevant- Quote: California Chooses Wildfires Again Instead of Controlled Fires Brian Wang | August 22, 2020 In 2019, Nextbigfuture wrote that California must choose between uncontrolled or controlled fires. The entire 33 million acres of forests needs to be burned every 10-20 years. More sensitive areas near populations need to be thinned and managed without fire. California should have 5 million acres per year of controlled burn for six years to catch up and burn all of the 40 billion tons of kindling. Controlled burns have been known to be the solution to forest management for hundreds of years. Nextbigfuture wrote about this in 2018. The dead trees will all end up burning. It is just a matter of when, if we want to wait for nature to pick the time and places or where we will. ------------------------ BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 11:36:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 04:36:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] filter ban Message-ID: <006201d67941$ae80a570$0b81f050$@rainier66.com> We had an idea which might get things cooking over on USPolitics: mutually agree to not filter everyone who joins us. Then if you suspect no one is responding to you over on ExI main, it might be because they have you filtered here. But if you show up on USpolitics, you get unfiltered there, which unfilters you back over here. Cool! I don't know what's up with US politics. It has been in existence for several hours now and we have had no shrieking arguments. Will is over there posting stuff we all agree on, oy vey, and we can't filter him away for being reasonable. A question I asked: if you are or were to become a single-issue kind of politico, what is that one most important issue and where do you stand? Don't answer it here, answer it there. You might already be spam filtered here. You won't be there. Post to me to join. spike From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 11:53:32 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 07:53:32 -0400 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 7:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *Johnny, are you with us on the political ghetto? * I'll probably be unable to resist the urge to look in if it's formed, but I still think it's a bad idea, or rather it's an indictment of the main list and its management if the most important social crisis in the last century is coming to its climax in the next few months and it is not allowed to be discussed on the Extropian List. > *After the November election we can resume spilling toxic venom on the > main list, if we can get it past ExiMod. ExiMod sounded like ExiMod meant > business with that last warning however, and don?t want to annoy ExiMod > before ExiMod even gets a chance to warm ExiMod?s chair.* Mr. Mystery Man Moderator did indeed sound like he (or she) meant business, and that makes me think my time on the Extropian List may be coming to an end; and that will make me sad because I've had a lot of fun around here since I wrote my first post on September 29 1993. Back then everybody would have laughed at the idea that an enormously important topic was too controversial for the main list because somebody's delicate sensibilities might get offended, so a smaller ghetto list needs to be formed to protect the snowflakes. Back then they were only 2 rules, don't be boring and don't be stupid. It seemed to work. By the way, is there any particular reason the moderator needs to be anonymous? If you won't give us a name could you at least tell us if he or she is a regular poster? Has he or she *ever* posted? John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 12:09:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 05:09:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2020 4:54 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: John Clark Subject: Re: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 7:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > Johnny, are you with us on the political ghetto? >?I'll probably be unable to resist the urge to look in if it's formed, but I still think it's a bad idea, or rather it's an indictment of the main list? John K Clark Or an indictment of? em? >?Back then they were only 2 rules, don't be boring and don't be stupid. It seemed to work? How can one ever know for sure one hasn?t broken those 2 here? Join us John. Indict us. We like being indicted there. One of our early questions is a topic on which you can shed some light. That ghetto is a temporary, just until after our quadrennial symbolic civil war in a coupla months. A lotta posters here are not USian and get bored with the stupidity of our politics. But we don?t. Come over, before we hafta start gossiping about ya. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 12:39:03 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 08:39:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> A lotta posters here are not USian and get bored with the stupidity of > our politics* If anybody living anywhere on planet Earth is bored with the very real possibility of the USA turning into a right wing dictatorship in just the next few months then they are idiots, ... ups...sorry .... I forgot my political correctness,,, what I meant to say is those poor people are suffering from a tragic severe learning disability, and my heart goes out to them. >> Back then they were only 2 rules, don't be boring and don't be stupid. >> It seemed to work? > > *>How can one ever know for sure one hasn?t broken those 2 here?* One can never be certain you've arrived at the absolute truth, or at least you shouldn't be certain, but debate is usually a good tool for getting asymptotically close to it. I am prepared to defend every word I say, and if somebody beats me in debate then I will abandon my previous position and embrace their position as my own. I have zero loyalty to ideas. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 12:49:18 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 08:49:18 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 8:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > *The political subgroup exists. If you would like to join that, please > drop me a note. * > If it exists then as I predicted I am unable to resist the urge to look in, so I'll join. But I still think it's a bad sign that a ghetto list is considered necessary to discuss something this important. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 14:04:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 07:04:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00c401d67956$4937cb70$dba76250$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> A lotta posters here are not USian and get bored with the stupidity of our politics >?If anybody living anywhere on planet Earth is bored with the very real possibility of the USA turning into a right wing dictatorship in just the next few months? So come on over to ExiPolitics and discuss it. Most of the readers over here have you in their spam filters for breaking rules 1 and 2. >?then they are idiots? And the later rule 3. Come over, John. We will unfilter you there. >? and my heart goes out to them? Cool, may your heart go out to ExI and your venom go to ExIPolitics. >>> Back then they were only 2 rules, don't be boring and don't be stupid. It seemed to work? >>How can one ever know for sure one hasn?t broken those 2 here? >?One can never be certain you've arrived at the absolute truth? John K Clark Join us John. Come. You have an audience there. You don?t here. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 15:50:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 17:50:03 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> References: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I'll join, please add me. On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 2:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > When a good idea comes along, I drive it to completion. Whoever thought > of creating a subgroup for politics was right on. > > > > Oh wait, that was me. > > > > The political subgroup exists. If you would like to join that, please > drop me a note. We have agreed to engage in friendly banter until about > tomorrow evening in flagrant violation of the spirit of that group, just so > the late comers don?t miss out. We are not archiving, by gentle-lifeform?s > agreement, so when it?s gone, it?s gone, like that thing the young hipsters > are using these days, what?s it called? Crack Chat? Something along those > lines. > > > > ExiMod, do feel free to tell ExI-chatters to take it to ExiPolitics should > they feel the savage urge to unleash their innermost passions on the topic, > to slake their unquenchable desire to tell the world how America should be > run. > > > > Internationals welcome, no bitching allowed. Clarification: bitching > required, what I meant was no bitching about how the list is dominated by > American politics. Of course it is, that?s what it?s for. > > > > Political incorrectness is allowed there too. We are among friends. > Express yourself as you will. > > > > Post me, come on join us, political types! We need you! > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 15:59:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 08:59:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: References: <001e01d678e4$e4523e00$acf6ba00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <01ad01d67966$54630950$fd291bf0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Exi Political Posting >?I'll join, please add me. Giulio Cool thanks Giulio. That list is strictly political. If you have anything smart or interesting, hasta go here. Rules is rules. We don?t have enforceable rules there, but we don?t want to risk splitting this list or competing with it in any way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 16:06:13 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:06:13 -0500 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) Message-ID: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> Title: Genetically modified mosquitoes have been OK?d for a first U.S. test flight https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencenews.org/article/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-florida-test-release/amp ?After a decade of fits and starts, officials in the Florida Keys have voted to allow the first test in the United States of free-flying, genetically modified mosquitoes as a way to fight the pests and the diseases they spread. The decision came after about two hours of contentious testimony in a virtual public hearing on August 18. Many speakers railed against uncertainties in releasing genetically engineered organisms. In the end, though, worries about mosquito-borne diseases proved more compelling. On the day of the vote, dengue fever cases in Monroe County, where the Keys are located, totaled 47 so far in 2020, the first surge in almost a decade. The same mosquitoes known for yellow fever (Aedes aegypti) also spread dengue as well as Zika and Chikungunya (SN: 6/2/15). The species is especially hard to control among about 45 kinds of mosquitoes that whine around the Keys. Even the powerhouse Florida Keys Mosquito Control District with six aircraft for spraying ? Miami has zero ? kills only an estimated 30 to 50 percent of the local yellow fever mosquito population with its best pesticide treatments, says district board chairman Phil Goodman. ?We can?t rely on chemistry to spray our way out of this,? Goodman, a chemist himself, said as the commissioners conferred after the public?s comments. Then 4?1, the commissioners voted to go forward with a test of genetically modified males as pest control devices.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 16:29:14 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 17:29:14 +0100 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 17:08, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > Title: Genetically modified mosquitoes have been OK?d for a first U.S. test flight > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencenews.org/article/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-florida-test-release/amp > > ?After a decade of fits and starts, officials in the Florida Keys have voted to allow the first test in the United States of free-flying, genetically modified mosquitoes as a way to fight the pests and the diseases they spread. > > The decision came after about two hours of contentious testimony in a virtual public hearing on August 18. Many speakers railed against uncertainties in releasing genetically engineered organisms. In the end, though, worries about mosquito-borne diseases proved more compelling. On the day of the vote, dengue fever cases in Monroe County, where the Keys are located, totaled 47 so far in 2020, the first surge in almost a decade. > > The same mosquitoes known for yellow fever (Aedes aegypti) also spread dengue as well as Zika and Chikungunya (SN: 6/2/15). The species is especially hard to control among about 45 kinds of mosquitoes that whine around the Keys. Even the powerhouse Florida Keys Mosquito Control District with six aircraft for spraying ? Miami has zero ? kills only an estimated 30 to 50 percent of the local yellow fever mosquito population with its best pesticide treatments, says district board chairman Phil Goodman. > > ?We can?t rely on chemistry to spray our way out of this,? Goodman, a chemist himself, said as the commissioners conferred after the public?s comments. Then 4?1, the commissioners voted to go forward with a test of genetically modified males as pest control devices.? > _______________________________________________ There is going to have to be a lot more like this as climate warming is spreading tropical diseases further away from the equator. Quote: Climate change is fuelling the spread of deadly tropical diseases As temperatures creep up, communities are being hit with diseases they've never encountered before. The consequences are deadly By Lauren Evans Friday 24 July 2020 In July, the UN Environment Program released a report stating that warmer temperatures are fostering disease transmission both by increasing the population of vectors ? including sandflies, mosquitos, and ticks ? and by lengthening the season that the vectors are present. ------------ BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 16:31:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 09:31:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) Title: Genetically modified mosquitoes have been OK?d for a first U.S. test flight https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencenews.org/article/genetically-modified-mosquitoes-florida-test-release/amp ?After a decade of fits and starts, officials in the Florida Keys have voted to allow the first test in the United States of free-flying, genetically modified mosquitoes as a way to fight the pests and the diseases they spread? SR something that has puzzled me for some time: in order for genetically modified mosquitoes to be effective in birth control, they would need to mate before she bites. I think. If I understand, they mate, she bites, lays eggs. If he is one of the GM specials, the eggs are scrambled. Is that how those buzzy bastards work? Having grown up in that benighted (but critically important purple) state, it seems like we had all these mosquito subspecies cheerfully cohabitating while team biting. Anyone in a place where the mosquito is the state bird will likely know the answer to this one. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 16:59:28 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:59:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0DAEC6D3-A544-4453-BC6F-20D75F8AC305@gmail.com> How do GM Mosquitoes work? (1) Male mosquitoes do not bite. (2) GM male mosquitoes are released, and their offspring gain their dominant ?lethality? gene. Unless eggs are given a specific ?antidote?, they will die. (3) Each season release more GM males and mating will solve the issue naturally. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Aug 23 17:24:30 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:24:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? Message-ID: <20200823102430.Horde.3Y4uu9PEQJ-QwLGDHlvFQQX@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> I say pardon the man. Maybe even give him a promotion. Not many people in his generation have the grit to sacrifice a lucrative government contract, a hot girlfriend, and a cushy life over principles like a belief in a right to privacy. Whatever fame he has achieved in exile is small compensation for what he has lost. Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Sun Aug 23 17:26:47 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:26:47 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting Message-ID: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Go ahead and sign me up, Spike. I probably won't have much to say but you never know. Stuart LaForge From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 17:37:03 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:37:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: You can sign me up as well, although to John's point, I'm not sure why our moderator here is anonymous. I think if someone is going to wield that kind of power, they should be willing to own it, but it's not my list. On Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:30 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Go ahead and sign me up, Spike. I probably won't have much to say but > you never know. > > Stuart LaForge > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sun Aug 23 17:44:41 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:44:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) Message-ID: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> It will be interesting to see if this scheme works as intended. I don't foresee any disasters, but I would not be surprised if the targeted mosquito species evolves defenses against this attempt at eradication. Even in life-forms as simple as mosquitoes, females can be rather finicky about who they mate with. If the genetic modification of the male mosquito changes any aspect of his courtship presentation such as the pitch of his "buzz" or his scent, the GM males might be rejected. As an example, there is an ability that many species of insects, fish, and even large reptiles like Komodo dragons have called parthenogenesis. Basically if a female of one of these parthenogenic species can't find a male suitable to mate with, they will simply reproduce on their own either birthing or hatching clones of themselves. This way perfectly good females can wait several generations for the right man to come along. Human women could do the same thing given the right technology, training, and a good OB/Gyn. Stuart LaForge From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 17:55:58 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:55:58 -0400 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: The results in screw worm flies are encouraging, although their mating habits lend themselves very well to this technique. I'm not sure how we'll fare with mosquitoes... https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/animals/2019/12/north-american-screwworm-barrier On Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:45 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > It will be interesting to see if this scheme works as intended. I > don't foresee any disasters, but I would not be surprised if the > targeted mosquito species evolves defenses against this attempt at > eradication. Even in life-forms as simple as mosquitoes, females can > be rather finicky about who they mate with. If the genetic > modification of the male mosquito changes any aspect of his courtship > presentation such as the pitch of his "buzz" or his scent, the GM > males might be rejected. > > As an example, there is an ability that many species of insects, fish, > and even large reptiles like Komodo dragons have called > parthenogenesis. Basically if a female of one of these parthenogenic > species can't find a male suitable to mate with, they will simply > reproduce on their own either birthing or hatching clones of > themselves. This way perfectly good females can wait several > generations for the right man to come along. Human women could do the > same thing given the right technology, training, and a good OB/Gyn. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 17:57:29 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 10:57:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <003f01d67976$de7241a0$9b56c4e0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat >...This way perfectly good females can wait several generations for the right man to come along. Human women could do the same thing given the right technology, training, and a good OB/Gyn. Stuart LaForge _______________________________________________ Let's hope not Stuart. If this became widespread, I don't know what we would be good for. spike From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 18:04:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:04:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: References: <20200823104441.Horde.dx-_ioW4-KO1KAojx3Mgcij@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <004701d67977$eac07980$c0416c80$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) >?The results in screw worm flies are encouraging, although their mating habits lend themselves very well to this technique? Oh is that how they got that name? OK cool thanks. >? I'm not sure how we'll fare with mosquitoes... https://api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/animals/2019/12/north-american-screwworm-barrier Oy I?m not either. But it is time to try something else, even if it is risky. My Florida contacts agree their bug problem has been getting worse. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 23 18:20:31 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:20:31 -0700 Subject: [ExI] eximod In-Reply-To: <00fc01d66924$88eeaa50$9acbfef0$@rainier66.com> References: <00fc01d66924$88eeaa50$9acbfef0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-02 16:27, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > For three good reasons and one really bad one (listed at the end of this > post for the curious reader) I have chosen to stand down forthwith as > ExI moderator.? I have selected a new one (which is how I got that job > 21 yrs ago) and wish to try a fun little experiment: the new moderator?s > identity will remain in the shadows. His or her @ is > ExiMod at protonmail.com The title ought to be Anome. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From johnkclark at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 18:35:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:35:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 12:37 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> something that has puzzled me for some time: in order for genetically > modified mosquitoes to be effective in birth control, they would need to > mate before she bites.* The idea is a genetically modified female mosquito would bite normally, mate with unmodified males normally and lay eggs normally, but only males would hatch from those eggs. And when those males grew up and mated with an unmodified female all her offspring would be male too; and a population of nothing but males cannot survive. That's how Gene Drive works in the lab, it remains to be seen if it works in the wild. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 18:45:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:45:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007e01d6797d$9abc8f90$d035aeb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of John Clark via extropy-chat >?The idea is a genetically modified female mosquito would bite normally, mate with unmodified males normally and lay eggs normally, but only males would hatch from those eggs?John K Clark Sounds like a great idea to me. Full disclosure: I am from Florida. I remember. I remember camping in the forest, which always had to be near a water source to be a viable camping spot, and since Florida is flat, all water sources are still and quiet. Fill in the blanks. I see far more potential good here than potential harm. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robot at ultimax.com Sun Aug 23 20:01:37 2020 From: robot at ultimax.com (robot at ultimax.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 16:01:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] eximod & Exi Political Posting (two subjects combined) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8dbea33ff814dcbf9938ccbb6b0b7812@ultimax.com> Jack Vance is one of my favorite SF authors. Good one, Anton! Another suggestion: the Oligarch from _Helliconia Winter_ by Brian W. Aldiss. Continuing with the theme of taking inspiration from grand SF writers, here's another: Vernor Vinge. In _A Deepness in the Sky_, (which is a prequel to 1992's _A Fire Upon the Deep_ even though it was written a decade later in 1999), Traders are a civilization thousands of years old originating on Earth, star-faring but limited to sub-light speeds. They have seen thousands of planet-bound "Customer civilizations" come and go. Sooner or later, every one of them collapses. In terms of culture, economics, governance, they have seen *everything*, and learned some general lessons. So, there's this minor scene takes place a generation before the main story, one of many setting up various characters' backgrounds. The Trader fleet has traced its quarry Pham Nuwen to some semi-frozen backwater planet called Triland. As always, the Traders interface with local ruling elite/law enforcement, a governance that started out as forest rangers/park police. (Another theme of Vinge's is the inevitability of Lord Acton's dictum in action.) The cops in turn hook up the Traders with some guy like a P.I. who does online research for a living. Turns out he needs access to a part of the local internet forbidden to him, and he drops an idle comment to that effect. The Traders glance at each other, and later in their mutual debrief say, "this world has partitioned its Net already? Well, the end won't be long now..." For those of you who haven't read the book, it is the best one Vinge ever wrote. So far. IMHO. (Do note that I have taken great care to avoid any spoilers! I hate it when that happens.) This is my way of saying to you-all that I think partitioning the list is a very bad sign. Now, I'm about to commit a logical fallacy here (arguing /ex cathedra/) but Keith can vouch for my background in these matters: I have studied the USSR, its precursors and successors my entire adult life, since before the end of the Cold War. What I tell you below is the informed opinion of a subject matter expert who believes every word of it to be true. Polarizing and partitioning *any* competing society with "wedge issues" is in general an avowed goal and century-plus-long practice of what used to be called the /oprichnina/ under the tsars, then CheKa then OGPU then NKVD/MVD then KGB now FSB, plus their military brethren in the GRU. To the guys who run /dezinformatisya/ campaigns (that word in Russian has never changed) and are playing the long game, chaos is a perfectly acceptable even desirable outcome, regardless whether or not one faction is aligned with Russian interests. The *only* antidote in reach is sunlight and openness, and a commitment to the basic principles of self-governance. Continuing with logical fallacies, as JKC says, /ad hominem/ attacks never killed anyone. Not directly. Perhaps indirect via apoplexy, but who doesn't suffer a daily bout of that these days? As Keith says, what Spike posts bugs me far more often than the screeds & jeremiads that John posts. K3 On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 11:20:31 -0700, Anton Sherwood wrote: >> On 2020-8-02 16:27, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> For three good reasons and one really bad one (listed at the end of >> this >> post for the curious reader) I have chosen to stand down forthwith as >> ExI moderator.? I have selected a new one (which is how I got that job >> 21 yrs ago) and wish to try a fun little experiment: the new >> moderator?s >> identity will remain in the shadows. His or her @ is >> ExiMod at protonmail.com > The title ought to be Anome. AND THE OTHER TOPIC: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 2:34 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> When a good idea comes along, I drive it to completion. Whoever >> thought >> of creating a subgroup for politics was right on. >> The political subgroup exists. If you would like to join that, please >> drop me a note. We have agreed to engage in friendly banter until >> about >> tomorrow evening in flagrant violation of the spirit of that group, >> just so >> the late comers don?t miss out. We are not archiving, by >> gentle-lifeform?s >> agreement, so when it?s gone, it?s gone, like that thing the young >> hipsters >> are using these days, what?s it called? Crack Chat? Something along >> those >> lines. >> ExiMod, do feel free to tell ExI-chatters to take it to ExiPolitics >> should >> they feel the savage urge to unleash their innermost passions on the >> topic, >> to slake their unquenchable desire to tell the world how America >> should be >> run. >> Political incorrectness is allowed there too. We are among friends. >> Express yourself as you will. >> Post me, come on join us, political types! We need you! >> spike From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 23 20:28:24 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:28:24 -0700 Subject: [ExI] eximod & Exi Political Posting (two subjects combined) In-Reply-To: <8dbea33ff814dcbf9938ccbb6b0b7812@ultimax.com> References: <8dbea33ff814dcbf9938ccbb6b0b7812@ultimax.com> Message-ID: <6ad8c133-3c48-d4bb-aada-064ac1b0f9f1@pobox.com> On 2020-8-23 13:01, Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat wrote: > Jack Vance is one of my favorite SF authors. Good one, Anton! > Another suggestion: the Oligarch from_Helliconia Winter_ by Brian W. > Aldiss. Is the Oligarch anonymous like the Anome? That was the whole point of my allusion. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 20:34:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 13:34:08 -0700 Subject: [ExI] eximod & Exi Political Posting (two subjects combined) In-Reply-To: <8dbea33ff814dcbf9938ccbb6b0b7812@ultimax.com> References: <8dbea33ff814dcbf9938ccbb6b0b7812@ultimax.com> Message-ID: <001201d6798c$c1008f30$4301ad90$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Robert G. Kennedy III, PE via extropy-chat ... >...Continuing with logical fallacies, as JKC says, /ad hominem/ attacks never killed anyone. Not directly. Perhaps indirect via apoplexy, but who doesn't suffer a daily bout of that these days? >...As Keith says, what Spike posts bugs me far more often than the screeds & jeremiads that John posts. K3 ... No worries K3, do join us please. Your input is welcome over there. John and I welcome your input there. The concern on the part of ExiMod (and on the part of me for the time I suffered the omnipotence of being the moderator here) was that particularly during our quadrennial symbolic civil wars, the toxicity of our cherished list became excessive. I can attest from seeing 5 complete cycles of that, I was seeing a sixth and most toxic form of it. An example is that non-partisanship is seen as partisanship by both poles of our highly polarized society, with the non-partisan aligned with the other side. Libertarians are used to that. Fortunately, any resentment is one way; I certainly hold no hard feelings. A solution was proposed which is temporary, lasting only until our time of decision has safely passed, which is after all only a few weeks away. Do join us sir. Your input is most welcome. K3, you post such interesting stuff. Why so seldom do we hear from you? spike From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 23 21:20:00 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:20:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Diaspora Message-ID: How about a new subject? ?Diaspora? by Greg Egan is among my favorite fictions. The setting is several centuries after most humans uploaded to supercomputers buried in permafrost. (It is hinted between the lines that this Introdus was driven by, and the cure of, an eco-collapse.) When I'm waiting for sleep, I often think about designing the virtual environment. Each citizen has a private "scape" and there are also public "scapes". I imagine my home as a terraformed asteroid (where the laws of physics are fudged as necessary!), with a door to a public promenade loosely modelled on some old city. An irregular asteroid ought to have some nifty microclimates. I'd also have several experimental mini-scapes with exotic geometry. Some public scapes are realistic, some cartoony, some look like Impressionist paintings. In one it's customary to wear a superhero costume of your own design; some are explicitly heraldic (and I sometimes hesitate about how to translate from a shield or flag, a flat surface with an edge, to a skin with no edges). It's mentioned a few times that minds can be copied and merged, but the story doesn't make much use of merging (apart from one poignant scene). Unless it's very costly, wouldn't you want a spare self to answer the doorbell while you work? (Your memories merge when you sleep, let's say.) Also: sex; "go fuck yourself" might be very good advice. I recently thought of another application. To learn another language as a native, you spin off a version of yourself with the language lobes reset to infancy, and that one goes to live in another community; you regularly absorb "its" memories, but "it" remains separate and does not import from "you" until you decide you have learned enough. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Sun Aug 23 21:21:14 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:21:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: <00c401d67956$4937cb70$dba76250$@rainier66.com> References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> <00c401d67956$4937cb70$dba76250$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <57a2e601-7f8a-585f-da9d-1202aeb97c49@pobox.com> On 2020-8-23 07:04, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Most of the readers over here have you in their spam filters for > breaking rules 1 and 2. Can you know that? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 23 21:43:51 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 14:43:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? In-Reply-To: <57a2e601-7f8a-585f-da9d-1202aeb97c49@pobox.com> References: <021a01d678db$7a3e6a10$6ebb3e30$@rainier66.com> <007301d67946$303b1ba0$90b152e0$@rainier66.com> <00c401d67956$4937cb70$dba76250$@rainier66.com> <57a2e601-7f8a-585f-da9d-1202aeb97c49@pobox.com> Message-ID: <005301d67996$7ee35010$7ca9f030$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] who is in favor of pardoning Snowden? On 2020-8-23 07:04, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>... Most of the readers over here have you in their spam filters for > breaking rules 1 and 2. >...Can you know that? No. When I was moderator and received complains, I advised them to filter the offender. As moderator, I did not have that option, being responsible for reading content. I don't know how many followed my suggestion, but over on ExiPolitics, the participants there have an assured audience. Anton, you declined before, but the invitation remains open. It's a temporary arrangement. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 23:43:49 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 18:43:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <007e01d6797d$9abc8f90$d035aeb0$@rainier66.com> References: <07C58462-B6AF-4361-938A-4F95624094BD@gmail.com> <01ed01d6796a$e5597df0$b00c79d0$@rainier66.com> <007e01d6797d$9abc8f90$d035aeb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <98EC7070-3891-45B0-B3E7-12BBCA722C38@gmail.com> For those wondering how effective the mosquito control method is: it has been used in other countries with varying but very high levels of success. Now, even if a GM female mosquito DID bite you, she does not have any diseases, so no harm, no foul. SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 23:45:07 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 18:45:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: References: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I think it?s to prevent resentment towards mod and/or to allow people to disagree with them without feeling they have to toe a line. SR Ballard > On Aug 23, 2020, at 12:37 PM, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > You can sign me up as well, although to John's point, I'm not sure why our moderator here is anonymous. I think if someone is going to wield that kind of power, they should be willing to own it, but it's not my list. > >> On Sun, Aug 23, 2020, 1:30 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> Go ahead and sign me up, Spike. I probably won't have much to say but >> you never know. >> >> Stuart LaForge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 24 04:31:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2020 21:31:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] good news for a change Message-ID: <002e01d679cf$82644990$872cdcb0$@rainier66.com> Well today is Sunday, about 17 days since the bikers started showing up in huge numbers at Sturgis, enough time for the signal to show up in the new case data and enough time for the early deaths from the early arrivals to have made a noticeable appearance. So far, from what I can tell, it isn?t going to be a worst case of 20% catchers. It isn?t even looking that much like a nominal case (my estimated nominal) of 10% catchers, given the togetherness, the nearly universal disregard of masks (while not riding) the age and the general hard-living bikerness of the biker crowd. We will continue to watch, but from what I can tell from the California data, we are getting some new infections from Sturgis but not so far the numbers I was fearing. Well this is good. There is another calculation I haven?t done but now that I think of it, this exercise makes little sense until I do: what are the number of expected infections if the half million who went to Sturgis stayed home? If we use Santa Clara County data (not because it is necessarily representative, but because I know the numbers from memory) the county has about 2 million proles and is getting about 200 new cases per day. If that ratio is ported to Sturgis, we would expect in about half a million bikers about 50 new cases per day. OK then. At this point there isn?t much we can do but wait for the data to rumble in. The rest of ya, do you have biker friends? Or do you know anyone who went to Sturgis? The ones I know are all fine, didn?t catch. I am told the medics are watching the Sturgis crowd carefully. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 07:25:45 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 00:25:45 -0700 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <98EC7070-3891-45B0-B3E7-12BBCA722C38@gmail.com> References: <98EC7070-3891-45B0-B3E7-12BBCA722C38@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3B94F175-38F8-4C67-83D8-072F24737BAA@gmail.com> On Aug 23, 2020, at 4:45 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?For those wondering how effective the mosquito control method is: it has been used in other countries with varying but very high levels of success. > > Now, even if a GM female mosquito DID bite you, she does not have any diseases, so no harm, no foul. The issue I would have is with broader ecological impact. (I?m sure they?re monitoring this.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 08:25:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 04:25:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] GM Mosquitos in FL (on purpose) In-Reply-To: <3B94F175-38F8-4C67-83D8-072F24737BAA@gmail.com> References: <98EC7070-3891-45B0-B3E7-12BBCA722C38@gmail.com> <3B94F175-38F8-4C67-83D8-072F24737BAA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 3:28 AM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> The issue I would have is with broader ecological impact. * If mosquitoes went extinct there would be a broad ecological impact, but not as broad as for them not going extinct. Mosquitoes are the world's deadliest animal, they kill about 1 million humans a year. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 08:52:34 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 04:52:34 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: References: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 7:53 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I think it?s to prevent resentment towards mod > That could have been the intention but if so it hasn't worked worth a damn. Maybe it's just me but I think it would be useful to know if the person controlling the fate of the list was closer to a libertarian scientist or a Christian fundamentalist who thought the world started in 4004BC, or at least know if he or she had ever made a post to this list before he or she started issuing orders. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 13:01:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 09:01:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Exi Political Posting In-Reply-To: References: <20200823102647.Horde.RE7ApqaPxWFJnG-ivjAbyH6@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: FWIW, I agree with John that you should be able to face your accuser. I don't care about their background as long as they're fair, but I don't think it's fair to have an anonymous person moderating. Just my two cents... On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 4:53 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 7:53 PM SR Ballard via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I think it?s to prevent resentment towards mod >> > > That could have been the intention but if so it hasn't worked worth a > damn. Maybe it's just me but I think it would be useful to know if the > person controlling the fate of the list was closer to a libertarian > scientist or a Christian fundamentalist who thought the world started in > 4004BC, or at least know if he or she had ever made a post to this list > before he or she started issuing orders. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 15:26:28 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2020 10:26:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Dingo ate my baby (jk it just got bigger after I poisoned it) Message-ID: TITLE : Culling dingoes with poison may be making them bigger https://www.sciencenews.org/article/dingo-poison-pesticides-size-culling-australia ?Australia?s dingoes are getting bigger, and it may be because of humans. New research suggests the change is happening only in places where the wild canine?s populations are controlled with poison. The findings could illustrate for the first time that, when targeted with pesticides, changes to the physical traits of ?pest? species can occur in bigger animals, not just insects and rodents.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 06:43:57 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 08:43:57 +0200 Subject: [ExI] Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some thoughts and a (semi-serious) visual analogy: The multiverse of Everett: Spaghetti worlds in quantum sauce I?ve been researching recent developments of Everett?s ?many worlds? interpretation of quantum mechanics... https://turingchurch.net/the-multiverse-of-everett-spaghetti-worlds-in-quantum-sauce-2759be6fed2e On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 11:57 AM Giulio Prisco wrote: > > I'm researching Everett's quantum mechanics again. Is there any > interpretation or variant of Everett that you are aware of where more > than one but not all Everett worlds are real? > For example, one could think that a new "real" world is spawned only > when there's an inconsistent time loop in a current real world (this > seems to be the case in Greg Benford's science fiction novel > Timescape). > Or, one could think that Everett world's are selected according to > some reality criteria and only some (but not all) worlds are accepted. > Like in genetic programming, where many parallel evolutions are > generated but only some are selected for continuation. > Thoughts? From jasonresch at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 06:45:20 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 01:45:20 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 5:43 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Monday, April 27, 2020, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> You don't experience the passage of time while you're dead. So even if >> Tipler's or some other Omega point happens a trillion years from now, from >> your point of view you experience it immediately after you die. You feel as >> though you are instantaneously resurrected Jason >> >> How do you know these things? Has some resurrected person told you? >> bill w >> >>> >>> > It's a natural conclusion from any delayed teletransporter thought > experiment. Consider step 2 described here: > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHAL.pdf > > > Good grief. > > The fact that you're referring to that gobbledigook tells me all I need to > know. > > > Hi Ben, I've written up my ideas much more clearly here, if you are interested: https://alwaysasking.com/is-there-life-after-death/ Jason -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 09:31:43 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:31:43 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Pandemic world changes Message-ID: Interesting article here: Quotes: August 23, 2020 The Triumph of Catastrophism. How Greta Thumberg Carried the Day Do you remember that weird girl from Sweden? Yes, the one with the braided hair. What was her name? Greta something.... It is strange that so many people seemed to pay attention to what she was saying about things like climate change. Why should anyone be worried by that? Nobody cares about climate change anymore when there are much more important matters at hand with the great pandemic sweeping the world? And yet, strangely, nowadays people are doing exactly what Greta had told them to do. But things keep changing and I am now amazed to see that humans are acting exactly as if they had listened to Greta Thunberg. Do you remember? She said we shouldn't use the plane, that we should travel less, use less energy, consume less. Exactly what's being done. People are not flying anymore so much, they stopped most of their long distance traveling, the mass migration called "international tourism" seems to have disappeared for good. Some of the most polluting manufacturing operations are slowing down, and with that the exploitation of natural resources. The shale oil industry is dead and the whole extractive industry is going down the drain, too. Humans seem to have largely abandoned their beloved ritual of daily commuting. It is incredible: people would be howling their displeasure all the way to the moon if they had been asked to fly less for the benefit of the ecosystem and themselves, but now they are meekly doing exactly that out of fear of the coronavirus. etc......... ------------------------------ Yes, the world is changing beneath our feet, faster than we ever thought possible. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Aug 25 14:36:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:36:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Pandemic world changes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005901d67aed$1b811310$52833930$@rainier66.com> Interesting article here: Quotes: August 23, 2020 The Triumph of Catastrophism. How Greta Thumberg Carried the Day >>...Do you remember that weird girl from Sweden? Yes, the one with the braided hair. What was her name? Greta .... ------------------------------ >...Yes, the world is changing beneath our feet, faster than we ever thought possible. BillK _______________________________________________ I remember that girl! With that passionate firey speech she came across like a junior-league assistant axe murderer. Thanks for that take on it BillK. I live near an international airport and definitely noticed the air traffic has dropped to about 10% of normal and stayed there. Regarding C-19 surge due to Sturgis, the data doesn't seem to have noticed sick bikers coming home last week. It shoulda by now. If we somehow discover the virus has mutated into an ordinary flu and people jump back on those planes and resume their previous lives, the planet is in peril. spike From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 15:42:30 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:42:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Confirmed Covid Re-Infection Message-ID: <1FA16BB9-D59E-4A7E-B1CD-80123E60394B@gmail.com> TITLE: A man in Hong Kong is the first confirmed case of coronavirus reinfection https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-first-case-reinfection-man-hong-kong ?A 33-year-old man in Hong Kong was infected with the coronavirus a second time, more than four months after his initial infection, researchers report. His case is the first confirmed account of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection.? ?Previous anecdotal reports of patients who had recovered from an infection only to be sickened again with COVID-19 months later have surfaced during the pandemic. But without genetic evidence that each round of illness was caused by two distinct viruses, it was unclear whether such cases were true reinfections. Genetic data confirmed on August 24 that the man was in fact reinfected, 142 days after his first illness, the researchers reported August 24. A study describing the findings has been accepted for publication in Clinical Infectious Diseases, but is not yet available online. The first time the man was infected, he had a fever, cough, sore throat and headache for three days. He tested positive for the coronavirus on March 26 and was admitted to a hospital in Hong Kong three days later. At that point his symptoms had gone away. He was discharged on April 14 after he tested negative for the virus twice. But the man tested positive again more than four months later on August 15, when officials screened him upon returning to the Hong Kong airport from Spain. The second time, he never showed any indication of being sick ? a sign that his immune system kicked in enough to protect him from the disease because he remained asymptomatic but not enough to prevent reinfection.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 25 18:09:33 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:09:33 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> On 2020-8-17 08:54, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse > all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be > avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid > because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. > Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to > prevent. Seems to me, even without free will, your actions can be influenced by your prediction of consequences; and therefore it still promotes happiness to reinforce some behaviors and discourage others. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Aug 25 18:21:29 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:21:29 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <18040A61-A2C6-4AF6-BAC4-78DA437FE0A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-18 00:23, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > I doubt my depression will cause me to chase you with an ax. > If I don?t take my medicine I would be far too depressed to do so. If I were cleverer in the appropriate ways, I might write a parody of "Small Circle of Friends", to the effect that a murderous rampage seems like too much work. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 19:27:38 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:27:38 +0100 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 07:53, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > > I've written up my ideas much more clearly here, if you are interested: > https://alwaysasking.com/is-there-life-after-death/ > > Jason > _______________________________________________ There's a lot of information in that article! But that doesn't mean it solves the problem of life after death. :) Reviewing ten theories of life after death gives the reader a lot of content to deal with and reminds me of the Gish Gallop debating technique. (Not intended to criticize the strength of your arguments). Gish Gallop Definition: The Gish gallop is a technique used during live debates that focuses on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments. In debate each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place. ----------- In this case it means that to argue against your article may require ten articles of similar length arguing against each theory in detail. I don't think I'm up to making that effort! :) More generally, any argument that introduces infinities, whether of time, space or universes, runs into the problem that it results in claiming 'Well, in effect anything is possible'. That may be true, but it is not really a constructive argument. It reminds me of Zeno's Dichotomy paradox. That which is in locomotion must arrive at the half-way stage before it arrives at the goal. ??as recounted by Aristotle, Physics VI:9, 239b10 Suppose Atalanta wishes to walk to the end of a path. Before she can get there, she must get halfway there. Before she can get halfway there, she must get a quarter of the way there. Before traveling a quarter, she must travel one-eighth; before an eighth, one-sixteenth; and so on. This description requires one to complete an infinite number of tasks, which Zeno maintains is an impossibility. Modern mathematics now has the concept of a convergent series, where the sum of the terms of an infinite sequence of numbers converges or tends to a limit. So our life may have infinite possibilities but it still tends to the limit of death. Though if life extension becomes feasible it could be a much longer life than at present. BillK From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 19:42:27 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:42:27 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:11 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-17 08:54, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse > > all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be > > avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid > > because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. > > Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to > > prevent. > > Seems to me, even without free will, your actions can be influenced by > your prediction of consequences; and therefore it still promotes > happiness to reinforce some behaviors and discourage others. > Indeed. Even if it's all predetermined - even if, say, reality is strong superdetermination - what did that predetermination? That is the "you" that is making your choices, in that case. Perhaps you may perceive the now, but if you need to kick free will up the chain to resolve things, so be it. There is still a thing that is you that is making decisions. (And no, the thing that is making your choices is not necessarily omniscient; it may have no more perception of your current state of affairs than you have right now.) Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the universe, such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a free will behind those, nudging our brains just enough to make the decisions they make. It's also possible to reward things (people) that achieve socially beneficial ends, and punish things (people) that achieve socially antagonistic ends, so that the former will be more able to do their thing and the latter will be less able to do so. This gets to the warehousing of criminals, if criminals are most likely to repeat offend right after they have done crimes and less likely to if forced to cool off in jail for a time. Also, ideally the criminals can be offered opportunities to learn new skills and otherwise change themselves into things (people) less likely to commit more crimes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 19:56:17 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:56:17 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > * > Even if it's all predetermined - even if, say, reality is strong > superdetermination - what did that predetermination? That is the "you" > that is making your choices, in that case. * > Yes, and if that something made the decision it did for a reason then it's a cuckoo clock, and if that something made the decision it did for no reason then it's a roulette wheel. *> Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the universe, > such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a free will > behind those,* > That makes no sense. If there's ANYTHING behind the decision then it's not random. Random means an effect without a cause. > *> This gets to the warehousing of criminals, if criminals are most likely > to repeat offend right after they have done crimes and less likely to if > forced to cool off in jail for a time. Also, ideally the criminals can be > offered opportunities to learn new skills* > The best weapon against crime is just time, people usually tend to get less violent as they get older. John K Clark > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 20:01:00 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 13:01:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:58 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *> Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the universe, >> such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a free will >> behind those,* >> > > That makes no sense. If there's ANYTHING behind the decision then it's > not random. Random means an effect without a cause. > Truly random *from our perspective and ability to measure it*. Doesn't mean there isn't a cause behind it, just not a cause that we can see. Which is pretty much what the source of free will, assuming there is one, would have to be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 20:51:21 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:51:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: <0C11BE61-7C80-4B77-9BA3-31EA2DD4E7E0@gmail.com> ?Predetermination? as you put it does not require an actor of any kind. Just initial conditions that mechanistically turn into later conditions and then so on and so forth. Nothing is random, just emerging from initial conditions. SR Ballard > On Aug 25, 2020, at 2:42 PM, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 11:11 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On 2020-8-17 08:54, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: >> > If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse >> > all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be >> > avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid >> > because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. >> > Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to >> > prevent. >> >> Seems to me, even without free will, your actions can be influenced by >> your prediction of consequences; and therefore it still promotes >> happiness to reinforce some behaviors and discourage others. > > Indeed. Even if it's all predetermined - even if, say, reality is strong superdetermination - what did that predetermination? That is the "you" that is making your choices, in that case. Perhaps you may perceive the now, but if you need to kick free will up the chain to resolve things, so be it. There is still a thing that is you that is making decisions. (And no, the thing that is making your choices is not necessarily omniscient; it may have no more perception of your current state of affairs than you have right now.) > > Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the universe, such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a free will behind those, nudging our brains just enough to make the decisions they make. > > It's also possible to reward things (people) that achieve socially beneficial ends, and punish things (people) that achieve socially antagonistic ends, so that the former will be more able to do their thing and the latter will be less able to do so. This gets to the warehousing of criminals, if criminals are most likely to repeat offend right after they have done crimes and less likely to if forced to cool off in jail for a time. Also, ideally the criminals can be offered opportunities to learn new skills and otherwise change themselves into things (people) less likely to commit more crimes. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jasonresch at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:02:36 2020 From: jasonresch at gmail.com (Jason Resch) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:02:36 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 07:53, Jason Resch via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > I've written up my ideas much more clearly here, if you are interested: > > https://alwaysasking.com/is-there-life-after-death/ > > > > Jason > > _______________________________________________ > > There's a lot of information in that article! > But that doesn't mean it solves the problem of life after death. :) Thank you, I hope you find it at least interesting. > > Reviewing ten theories of life after death gives the reader a lot of > content to deal with and reminds me of the Gish Gallop debating > technique. (Not intended to criticize the strength of your arguments). I've heard it called the "laundry list" form of argumentation, to give a bunch of weak reasons and hope they add up to a strong one. I agree that's not particularly persuasive. > > Gish Gallop Definition: > The Gish gallop is a technique used during live debates that focuses > on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible, > without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments. In debate > each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time > to refute or fact-check than it did to state in the first place. > ----------- > In this case it means that to argue against your article may require > ten articles of similar length arguing against each theory in detail. > I don't think I'm up to making that effort! :) Want to pick one then to discuss? > > More generally, any argument that introduces infinities, whether of > time, space or universes, runs into the problem that it results in > claiming 'Well, in effect anything is possible'. That may be true, but > it is not really a constructive argument. I think an infinite reality is almost unavoidable. It's a prediction of so many independent areas in science. I agree it makes predicting certain things trivial. > > It reminds me of Zeno's Dichotomy paradox. > That which is in locomotion must arrive at the half-way stage before > it arrives at the goal. > ? as recounted by Aristotle, Physics VI:9, 239b10 > > Suppose Atalanta wishes to walk to the end of a path. Before she can > get there, she must get halfway there. Before she can get halfway > there, she must get a quarter of the way there. Before traveling a > quarter, she must travel one-eighth; before an eighth, one-sixteenth; > and so on. > This description requires one to complete an infinite number of tasks, > which Zeno maintains is an impossibility. > > Modern mathematics now has the concept of a convergent series, where > the sum of the terms of an infinite sequence of numbers converges or > tends to a limit. > > So our life may have infinite possibilities but it still tends to the > limit of death. Though if life extension becomes feasible it could be > a much longer life than at present. Life extension, transcension, simulation are all part of the story in my view. I don't think we should avoid those paths, I only want to add that there are also other possibilities for surviving death which can mean hope is not lost for those who don't survive to reach a longevity escape velocity or technological singularity. Best, Jason > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:08:56 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 17:08:56 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 4:04 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: *> Truly random *from our perspective and ability to measure it*. Doesn't > mean there isn't a cause behind it, just not a cause that we can see. > Which is pretty much what the source of free will,* > If you mean that even in a 100% deterministic universe sometimes you could not know even in principal what you're going to do next until you actually do it then I would agree. From the work of Godel and Turing I know that there are an infinite number of statements that are true but have no proof, that is to say there would be no way to show they are true in a finite number of steps. if the Goldbach Conjecture is one of those statements, and if it isn't there are a infinite number of similar statements that are, then if you write a simple computer program that will look for the first even number greater than 2 that is not the sum of two primes and then stop there is no way to know if it will ever stop. There is no shortcut with a proof, you just have to try every number. If the Goldbach Conjecture is false then it will eventually stop, but there is no what to know how long it will take, and if the Goldbach Conjecture is true then it will never stop, but there is no way you could know it will never stop and thus no way to know that the Goldbach Conjecture is true. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:42:24 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:42:24 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 04:11, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-8-17 08:54, SR Ballard via extropy-chat wrote: > > > If free will is real and you think it is not, you can and will excuse > > > all manner of immorality, sloth, and cruelty because they couldn?t be > > > avoided. You probably put murderers in jail, but it?s kind of stupid > > > because from your perspective they never decided to kill anyone. > > > Killing someone was something they would be completely unable to > > > prevent. > > > > Seems to me, even without free will, your actions can be influenced by > > your prediction of consequences; and therefore it still promotes > > happiness to reinforce some behaviors and discourage others. If free will means that your actions are undetermined then ONLY without free will could they be influenced by anything. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:49:07 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 07:49:07 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 06:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:58 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> *> Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the >>> universe, such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a >>> free will behind those,* >>> >> >> That makes no sense. If there's ANYTHING behind the decision then it's >> not random. Random means an effect without a cause. >> > > Truly random *from our perspective and ability to measure it*. Doesn't > mean there isn't a cause behind it, just not a cause that we can see. > Which is pretty much what the source of free will, assuming there is one, > would have to be. > Determined means fixed due to prior events, such that if the prior events happen the determined event necessarily happens. It is also called caused. Undetermined means not fixed due to prior events, so that if the prior events happen the undetermined event does not necessarily happen. It is also called uncaused or random. ?Random? is used in other ways but this is the meaning in physics, and the relevant meaning in regard free will. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:07:17 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 15:07:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 06:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:58 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> *> Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the >>>> universe, such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a >>>> free will behind those,* >>>> >>> >>> That makes no sense. If there's ANYTHING behind the decision then it's >>> not random. Random means an effect without a cause. >>> >> >> Truly random *from our perspective and ability to measure it*. Doesn't >> mean there isn't a cause behind it, just not a cause that we can see. >> Which is pretty much what the source of free will, assuming there is one, >> would have to be. >> > > Determined means fixed due to prior events, such that if the prior events > happen the determined event necessarily happens. It is also called caused. > > Undetermined means not fixed due to prior events, so that if the prior > events happen the undetermined event does not necessarily happen. It is > also called uncaused or random. > > ?Random? is used in other ways but this is the meaning in physics, and the > relevant meaning in regard free will. > Yes, and there is stuff that is determined on an absolute basis (from an external observer's point of view) but appears undetermined from the perspective of anyone within a given system (such as, in this case, us). Is there a word or short phrase for that? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 22:51:41 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:51:41 +1000 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: References: <19689d5e-8d78-3464-5115-61c08afb41e7@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:08, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 06:03, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:58 PM John Clark via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 3:44 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> *> Also, there do appear to be some truly random aspects to the >>>>> universe, such as the precise timing of atomic decay. There could be a >>>>> free will behind those,* >>>>> >>>> >>>> That makes no sense. If there's ANYTHING behind the decision then it's >>>> not random. Random means an effect without a cause. >>>> >>> >>> Truly random *from our perspective and ability to measure it*. Doesn't >>> mean there isn't a cause behind it, just not a cause that we can see. >>> Which is pretty much what the source of free will, assuming there is one, >>> would have to be. >>> >> >> Determined means fixed due to prior events, such that if the prior events >> happen the determined event necessarily happens. It is also called caused. >> >> Undetermined means not fixed due to prior events, so that if the prior >> events happen the undetermined event does not necessarily happen. It is >> also called uncaused or random. >> >> ?Random? is used in other ways but this is the meaning in physics, and >> the relevant meaning in regard free will. >> > > Yes, and there is stuff that is determined on an absolute basis (from an > external observer's point of view) but appears undetermined from the > perspective of anyone within a given system (such as, in this case, us). > Is there a word or short phrase for that? > There is apparently random and truly or fundamentally random. Coin tosses are thought to be apparently random, radioactive decay is thought to be truly random. -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 23:59:44 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:59:44 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Soul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2020, at 2:04 PM, Jason Resch via extropy-chat wrote: > >> On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> Reviewing ten theories of life after death gives the reader a lot of >> content to deal with and reminds me of the Gish Gallop debating >> technique. (Not intended to criticize the strength of your arguments). > > I've heard it called the "laundry list" form of argumentation, to give a bunch of weak reasons and hope they add up to a strong one. I agree that's not particularly persuasive. I believe that?s called ten leaky buckets argument and it?s not really the Gish Gallup. The latter is used in debates to overwhelm an opponent (and the arguments needn?t be fallacious or erroneous) while the former is just fallacious reasoning. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 14:49:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 09:49:35 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law Message-ID: This is to everyone, though my thoughts started in the political group as a result of Spike's posts about following the law. No one responded to my post about Kohlberg, so I will do it myself. Most people do not make it up the moral scale past the "It's the law, dummy, and you always have to follow the law." Kohlberg stage 3 or 4. There are two stages above that, both dealing with issues of personal conscience. The standard moral question used in tons of studies: "Say your wife has an illness and the pharmacy has drugs for her cure, but the price is way out of your ability to pay." Nowadays we might go to a fundme kind of site to raise money. Let's assume that you can't do that. The usual answer is that you have to steal the drug - your wife's life is more important than the law about robbery. In the last moral stage you would steal it publicly so that everyone would see the disconnect between morality and the letter of the law. The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times, and what's in the legal code is irrelevant. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 15:04:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 08:04:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times, and what's in the legal code is irrelevant?bill w Hi BillW Do let us run with that ball, shall we? What if one is an atheist. What is the Higher Law then? Does every atheist get to create her own? Suppose a guy is protesting your church and causing believers to fall away and apostatize. Is it a time to break the law in order to destroy that guy, calling up Higher Law? If morality demands it, is it OK to use phony evidence in court? Is the legal code irrelevant? Or suppose your Higher Law clearly says to slay the infidel. This is illegal of course, but right there it is, clearly stated in the Holy Book, rocks calling out there is a Jew hiding behind me, slay him. What if that constitutes Higher Law for the fidel? Everybody OK with that? I?m not. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 16:45:39 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:45:39 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > What if one is an atheist. What is the Higher Law then? > Do The Right Thing. My guiding principle is non-aggression: violence only in reaction to violence. Does every atheist get to create her own? > Effectively. We have to make decisions that we can live with, We don't have a God to which we can assign responsibility for our actions. Suppose a guy is protesting your church and causing believers to fall away > and apostatize. > Our atheist church? Or are you off atheists now? Is it a time to break the law in order to destroy that guy, calling up > Higher Law? If morality demands it, is it OK to use phony evidence in > court? > Potentially, depending upon one's beliefs. I certainly wouldn't destroy people just for protesting my beliefs. Phony evidence? Possibly, but the burden of proof to convince me it's the right thing to do is very high. > Is the legal code irrelevant? > Sure: it's the law of the land. If one violates it, one must expect consequences. > Or suppose your Higher Law clearly says to slay the infidel. This is > illegal of course, but right there it is, clearly stated in the Holy Book, > rocks calling out there is a Jew hiding behind me, slay him. What if that > constitutes Higher Law for the fidel? > Then you face the consequences. > Everybody OK with that? > > > > I?m not. > I am. What's the alternative? Outlaw religion? It'd just go underground. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 16:50:30 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:50:30 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> Perhaps the point to make is that morality and the law do not always go hand in hand. Laws appear more malleable and change over time. Laws are also used to oppress and in those cases have nothing to do with morality. Morality is hopefully principle based, for example harm-based morality would take the position of do no harm, or to simplify, if harm results, it?s immoral. That doesn?t always correlate with something being illegal. Haidt wrote a lot about moral reasoning in the 90s. > On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:05 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > >?The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times, and what's in the legal code is irrelevant?bill w > > Hi BillW > > Do let us run with that ball, shall we? > > What if one is an atheist. What is the Higher Law then? Does every atheist get to create her own? > > Suppose a guy is protesting your church and causing believers to fall away and apostatize. Is it a time to break the law in order to destroy that guy, calling up Higher Law? If morality demands it, is it OK to use phony evidence in court? Is the legal code irrelevant? > > Or suppose your Higher Law clearly says to slay the infidel. This is illegal of course, but right there it is, clearly stated in the Holy Book, rocks calling out there is a Jew hiding behind me, slay him. What if that constitutes Higher Law for the fidel? > > Everybody OK with that? > > I?m not. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 16:56:43 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 11:56:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Return to reading Haidt is a great idea. Particularly the parts about the differences between conservatives and liberals that those of us who think there is no difference should read. bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:54 AM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Perhaps the point to make is that morality and the law do not always go > hand in hand. Laws appear more malleable and change over time. Laws are > also used to oppress and in those cases have nothing to do with morality. > Morality is hopefully principle based, for example harm-based morality > would take the position of do no harm, or to simplify, if harm results, > it?s immoral. That doesn?t always correlate with something being illegal. > Haidt wrote a lot about moral reasoning in the 90s. > > On Aug 26, 2020, at 11:05 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > >?The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you > that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times, and what's in the > legal code is irrelevant?bill w > > > > Hi BillW > > > > Do let us run with that ball, shall we? > > > > What if one is an atheist. What is the Higher Law then? Does every > atheist get to create her own? > > > > Suppose a guy is protesting your church and causing believers to fall away > and apostatize. Is it a time to break the law in order to destroy that > guy, calling up Higher Law? If morality demands it, is it OK to use phony > evidence in court? Is the legal code irrelevant? > > > > Or suppose your Higher Law clearly says to slay the infidel. This is > illegal of course, but right there it is, clearly stated in the Holy Book, > rocks calling out there is a Jew hiding behind me, slay him. What if that > constitutes Higher Law for the fidel? > > > > Everybody OK with that? > > > > I?m not. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 17:23:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:23:10 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <024901d67bcd$928a7d30$b79f7790$@rainier66.com> From: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] the law >?Perhaps the point to make is that morality and the law do not always go hand in hand. Laws appear more malleable and change over time. Laws are also used to oppress and in those cases have nothing to do with morality. Morality is hopefully principle based, for example harm-based morality would take the position of do no harm, or to simplify, if harm results, it?s immoral. That doesn?t always correlate with something being illegal. Haidt wrote a lot about moral reasoning in the 90s. Hi Henry, Ja, in a previous post I used the example of atheism, but changed tracks and went off on suppose you have a church (I meant a religion (not atheism (which is not a religion (or is a not-religion.)))) Suppose you have a church and someone is protesting it, causing believers to fall away, etc. There is an actual law on the books (I am not kidding) that makes it illegal to interfere with that religion. Do let me make it clear: it is an imprisonable offense to interfere with the practice of a religion (it is entirely possible that only one person has ever actually been ?convicted? of that (depending on how one defines the term convicted.)) This seems like a terrific money-making opportunity: I just declare worship of me a religion. All of you, stop interfering with Spikeism, ye infidels! Oh wait, never mind, you would be laughed out of court unless you have money and followers, plenty of both. Then you get to manufacture evidence. I don?t have money and only one follower, me. So what if? a politician declared himself a religion? Assume he has followers and money, and assume we call him Hoerkheimer. So why can?t people be convicted of interfering with Hoerkeimerism? We have laws on the books still which can be used as weapons. Occasionally they are. I am against using the legal code as a weapon. Bad things happen to good people. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 17:26:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 10:26:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <025001d67bce$05d3e2e0$117ba8a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the law >?Return to reading Haidt is a great idea. Particularly the parts about the differences between conservatives and liberals that those of us who think there is no difference should read. bill w BillW, I have read Haidt?s work and agree with most of it. It doesn?t talk much about why liberals and conservatives seem to agree on government overspending and borrowing the difference. I need Haidt to explain why those two guys agree on that, and why I disagree. We might need to take this over to ExiPolitics if we go deep on it. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 17:40:47 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:40:47 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <025001d67bce$05d3e2e0$117ba8a0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> <025001d67bce$05d3e2e0$117ba8a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > liberals and conservatives > These are meaningless labels that change over time. Talking about them is a distraction from progress. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 17:58:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:58:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> <025001d67bce$05d3e2e0$117ba8a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 12:42 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> liberals and conservatives >> > > These are meaningless labels that change over time. Talking about them is > a distraction from progress. > Au contraire - any large and, of course, statistically significant difference among people is quite worth investigating, and it turns out that these differences are consistent almost to the point of being a personality trait - though not quite. And they are deeply held. Attempts to change a person's attitude in conservative and liberal areas shows that far from superficial, they are consistently difficult to change. Enormous amounts of data on these - tens of thousands of studies. Yes, they do change over time, viz the difference between Europe and America on what those labels represent. But the underlying attitudes are quite consistent. Call them Tories, but they are really conservatives (who opposed the American Revolution). Progress? What kind of progress? bill w > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:10:59 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:10:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:52 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you > that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times I agree. Somebody found out in 1945 where Ann Frank and her family were hiding and told the Gestapo about it, for him to do otherwise would have been illegal. So to call that man a criminal would not be entirely accurate, but to call him a monster certainly would be. Can this lead to contradictions between the law and morality? Yes, but then neither the law nor morality is entirely self consistent anyway. Nevertheless in most (but not all) cases it's usually pretty clear what the moral thing to do is, having the guts to actually do it is an entirely different matter. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 18:18:48 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:18:48 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <861F54D8-E038-4C70-B135-8D27AEAFC6F1@alumni.virginia.edu> This may provide jumping off points for people interested in reading more From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory?wprov=sfti1 Moral foundations theory is a social psychological theory intended to explain the origins of and variation in human moral reasoning on the basis of innate, modular foundations. It was first proposed by the psychologists Jonathan Haidt, Craig Joseph and Jesse Graham, building on the work of cultural anthropologist Richard Shweder;and subsequently developed by a diverse group of collaborators, and popularized in Haidt's book The Righteous Mind. The theory proposes six foundations: Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation, and Liberty/Oppression; while its authors remain open to the addition, subtraction or modification of the set of foundations.(pp104?107) ... In contrast to the dominant theories of morality in psychology, the anthropologist Richard Shweder developed a set of theories emphasizing the cultural variability of moral judgments, but argued that different cultural forms of morality drew on "three distinct but coherent clusters of moral concerns", which he labeled as the ethics of autonomy, community, and divinity. Shweder's approach inspired Haidt to begin researching moral differences across cultures, including fieldwork in Brazil and Philadelphia. This work led Haidt to begin developing his social intuitionist approach to morality. This approach, which stood in sharp contrast to Kohlberg's rationalist work, suggested that "moral judgment is caused by quick moral intuitions" while moral reasoning simply serves as a post-hoc rationalization of already formed judgments. Haidt's work and his focus on quick, intuitive, emotional judgments quickly became very influential, attracting sustained attention from an array of researchers. > On Aug 26, 2020, at 2:11 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:52 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> > The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times > > I agree. Somebody found out in 1945 where Ann Frank and her family were hiding and told the Gestapo about it, for him to do otherwise would have been illegal. So to call that man a criminal would not be entirely accurate, but to call him a monster certainly would be. Can this lead to contradictions between the law and morality? Yes, but then neither the law nor morality is entirely self consistent anyway. Nevertheless in most (but not all) cases it's usually pretty clear what the moral thing to do is, having the guts to actually do it is an entirely different matter. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 18:51:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:51:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <861F54D8-E038-4C70-B135-8D27AEAFC6F1@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <861F54D8-E038-4C70-B135-8D27AEAFC6F1@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: There is no conflict between Haidt and Kohlberg. One, Haidt, is a set of categories into which similar beliefs fall. Kohlberg is a developmental stage theory wherein increasingly sophisticated moral reasoning is used by people from infancy onward. Most people do not achieve the last two stages. bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:20 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This may provide jumping off points for people interested in reading more > > From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory?wprov=sfti1 > > > Moral foundations theory is a social psychological > > theory intended to explain the origins of and variation in human moral > reasoning on the basis of innate, modular foundations. > It > was first proposed by the psychologists > Jonathan > Haidt > , > Craig Joseph and Jesse Graham, building on the work of cultural > anthropologist Richard Shweder > ;and > subsequently developed by a diverse group of collaborators, and popularized > in Haidt's book > The > Righteous Mind > > . The theory proposes six foundations: Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, > Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation, and > Liberty/Oppression; > > while > its authors remain open to the addition, subtraction or modification of the > set of foundations. > > (pp104?107) > > ... > In contrast to the dominant theories of morality in psychology, the > anthropologist Richard Shweder developed a set of theories emphasizing the > cultural variability of moral judgments, but argued that different cultural > forms of morality drew on "three distinct but coherent clusters of moral > concerns", which he labeled as the ethics of autonomy, community, and > divinity. > Shweder's > approach inspired Haidt to begin researching moral differences across > cultures, including fieldwork in Brazil and Philadelphia. > This > work led Haidt to begin developing his > social > intuitionist > approach > to morality. This approach, which stood in sharp contrast to Kohlberg's > rationalist work, suggested that "moral judgment is caused by quick moral > intuitions" while moral reasoning simply serves as a post-hoc > rationalization of already formed judgments. > Haidt's > work and his focus on quick, intuitive, emotional judgments quickly became > very influential, attracting sustained attention from an array of > researchers. > > > On Aug 26, 2020, at 2:11 PM, John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:52 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you >> that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times > > > I agree. Somebody found out in 1945 where Ann Frank and her family were > hiding and told the Gestapo about it, for him to do otherwise would have > been illegal. So to call that man a criminal would not be entirely > accurate, but to call him a monster certainly would be. Can this lead to > contradictions between the law and morality? Yes, but then neither the law > nor morality is entirely self consistent anyway. Nevertheless in most (but > not all) cases it's usually pretty clear what the moral thing to do is, > having the guts to actually do it is an entirely different matter. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:03:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:03:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions Message-ID: Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, everyone will know it." Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:28:37 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:28:37 -0400 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another > example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? > > My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I > don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, > everyone will know it." > > Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas > get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. > These are very specific and unnatural skills and they need to perform them very well or they'll be replaced by someone who can. We know there are different levels of memory in the brain and none of them are perfect. Seems expected that complex and specific skills need to be constantly refreshed. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 19:28:58 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:28:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. bill w >?I have been told that if a brain function isn?t used, that piece of brain gets recycled (in a sense) and used for something else. Other stuff overwrites the cool stuff you once knew. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:31:26 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:31:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 12:04 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another > example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? > > My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I > don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, > everyone will know it." > > Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas > get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. > Basically, yeah. There's muscle memory involved as well, for both athletes and, as you put it, classically trained musicians. The same thing explains why, despite taking multiple classes in Spanish back in high school, my current ability to speak and understand Spanish is minimal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 19:32:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 12:32:54 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> References: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] neuroscience questions >? On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>?Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. bill w >?I have been told that if a brain function isn?t used, that piece of brain gets recycled (in a sense) and used for something else. Other stuff overwrites the cool stuff you once knew. spike Example: a friend of mine crashed a paraglider, was all broken up, spent months in the hospital, we though he wouldn?t make it. He pulled thru but now his legs are stiff and he does well to walk. He had been very athletic before. He was the one who commented about his brain circuits being reprogrammed for other things. I learned to seize every opportunity to not fly paragliders. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 19:40:44 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:40:44 -0400 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <084E89D7-CA2B-4767-A5C7-9E739CFCB0CA@alumni.virginia.edu> Research shows that being an elite performer and or athlete requires much more practice than not the non-elite assume. Much, much more practice. Muscle memory becomes reinforced, focus and concentration need tuning, automaticity starts to happen. The non-elite tend to assume that elites have some innate talent that requires no practice or development. But in-fact work put in seems to be a better predictor of their success. Similarly, the most successful artists historically have a correlation with the amount of works they created. > On Aug 26, 2020, at 3:29 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? >> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? >> >> My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, everyone will know it." >> >> Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. > > These are very specific and unnatural skills and they need to perform them very well or they'll be replaced by someone who can. We know there are different levels of memory in the brain and none of them are perfect. Seems expected that complex and specific skills need to be constantly refreshed. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:53:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:53:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re high school Spanish - yes, we forget but not permanently. If you were to take it up again, you would find that relearning it would go far faster than learning it in the first place, showing that some memories are still there. (ex - rat study - teach the rat something - cut out a piece of his brain - put him back in maze or whatever - if it took him 20 trials to learn and 20 trials to relearn then no memories are there but you did not affect his ability to learn; only his memory. If 20 trials to learn and 10 to relearn, he is recalling 50%, and so on). I have no doubt that my three years of high school Latin are in there somewhere (though I am not going to relearn it - got online translators for that). Ergo - I am wondering if it is a physical thing, maybe housed in the cerebellum and not a memory thing. I can go back to my musical instruments and remember every finger position etc. but my fingers are like they are encased in glue. Coordination and not memory? Huh? bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:42 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 12:04 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another >> example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? >> >> My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I >> don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, >> everyone will know it." >> >> Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas >> get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. >> > > Basically, yeah. There's muscle memory involved as well, for both > athletes and, as you put it, classically trained musicians. > > The same thing explains why, despite taking multiple classes in Spanish > back in high school, my current ability to speak and understand Spanish is > minimal. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:54:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:54:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> References: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I learned to seize every opportunity to not fly paragliders. spike must keep you really busy bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:48 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] neuroscience questions > > > > > > > > *>?* *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > >>?Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain > areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. > > > > bill w > > > > > > >?I have been told that if a brain function isn?t used, that piece of > brain gets recycled (in a sense) and used for something else. Other stuff > overwrites the cool stuff you once knew. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > Example: a friend of mine crashed a paraglider, was all broken up, spent > months in the hospital, we though he wouldn?t make it. He pulled thru but > now his legs are stiff and he does well to walk. He had been very athletic > before. He was the one who commented about his brain circuits being > reprogrammed for other things. > > > > I learned to seize every opportunity to not fly paragliders. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 19:58:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:58:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: <084E89D7-CA2B-4767-A5C7-9E739CFCB0CA@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <084E89D7-CA2B-4767-A5C7-9E739CFCB0CA@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: Henry, a study was done at a big music school awhile back, and the only thing they found that correlated with performance skills was practice - no 'talent' showed up in the data. However, none of those students was or was going to be a world class performer and I wonder if there is some difference there between those students and the world class people. After all, we do know that some people are incredibly fast learners (but we also know that many prodigies don't turn out to be world class). bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:53 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Research shows that being an elite performer and or athlete requires much > more practice than not the non-elite assume. Much, much more practice. > Muscle memory becomes reinforced, focus and concentration need tuning, > automaticity starts to happen. The non-elite tend to assume that elites > have some innate talent that requires no practice or development. But > in-fact work put in seems to be a better predictor of their success. > Similarly, the most successful artists historically have a correlation with > the amount of works they created. > > On Aug 26, 2020, at 3:29 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another >> example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? >> >> My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I >> don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, >> everyone will know it." >> >> Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas >> get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. >> > > These are very specific and unnatural skills and they need to perform them > very well or they'll be replaced by someone who can. We know there are > different levels of memory in the brain and none of them are perfect. Seems > expected that complex and specific skills need to be constantly refreshed. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gsantostasi at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 20:17:21 2020 From: gsantostasi at gmail.com (Giovanni Santostasi) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:17:21 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, It is called memory consolidation. Sleep is fundamental in this process. Every day the brain makes decisions on what to keep and what to throw away. It is a huge field of research. Recently they even shown single spines in the neurons being erased after sleep. Some new spines are created and some erased. Sleep is both about remembering recent memories and make them stronger (and one of the criterias is that something is repeated over and over has to be important so brain should keep it) and erasing old memories that are not used. The real estate in the brain is extremely precious so the brain needs to erase old, unused memories to make space for new ones. This is exactly my area of research and we even developed a device to reinforce memories that are acquired during the day. I have a patent in this area. https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2017/april/pink-noise-sound-enhance-deep-sleep-memory/ you can also listen to this podcast: https://neurohacker.com/people/giovanni-santostasi Giovanni On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 12:04 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another > example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? > > My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I > don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, > everyone will know it." > > Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas > get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Aug 26 20:23:59 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:23:59 -0400 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Researchers have found this true for world class performers as well. And psychotherapists believe it or not. Deliberate practice as it?s called and the amount of it is essential it turns out. > On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:14 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Henry, a study was done at a big music school awhile back, and the only thing they found that correlated with performance skills was practice - no 'talent' showed up in the data. However, none of those students was or was going to be a world class performer and I wonder if there is some difference there between those students and the world class people. After all, we do know that some people are incredibly fast learners (but we also know that many prodigies don't turn out to be world class). > bill w > >> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:53 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: >> Research shows that being an elite performer and or athlete requires much more practice than not the non-elite assume. Much, much more practice. Muscle memory becomes reinforced, focus and concentration need tuning, automaticity starts to happen. The non-elite tend to assume that elites have some innate talent that requires no practice or development. But in-fact work put in seems to be a better predictor of their success. Similarly, the most successful artists historically have a correlation with the amount of works they created. >> >>>> On Aug 26, 2020, at 3:29 PM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: >>>> >>> ? >>>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? >>>> >>>> My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, everyone will know it." >>>> >>>> Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. >>> >>> These are very specific and unnatural skills and they need to perform them very well or they'll be replaced by someone who can. We know there are different levels of memory in the brain and none of them are perfect. Seems expected that complex and specific skills need to be constantly refreshed. >>> >>> -Dave >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 26 20:53:14 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 13:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <024901d67bcd$928a7d30$b79f7790$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <45A8FE42-E9B4-4E46-8759-1935E267BC29@alumni.virginia.edu> <024901d67bcd$928a7d30$b79f7790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <7a842469-27f3-c74c-b55e-931456377bb0@pobox.com> James Donald stated an interesting criterion, which I will now misquote. Suppose I attack you, stating my reason for doing so. If bystanders feel threatened by this -- that is, if my attacking you for reason X gives them cause to fear that I'm likely to attack them for a similar reason -- I'm probably in the wrong. Someone else (I forget who) argued that the point of formal litigation, at least in a stateless society (think Iceland), is to demonstrate to the world that, if I use force to (e.g.) seize property that you stole from me, I am not the aggressor and bystanders need not fear that I will do the same to them. People often say, "If there were no laws, what would restrain me from murdering on whim?" Perhaps others' freedom to kill you in turn. An anecdote wants to climb out of my mental junkyard; maybe one of you knows some details. In a small city (in Missouri?) there was a notorious bully who got away with numerous violent crimes, despite not having a police badge; perhaps he was related to someone in authority. When he was shot dead on a busy street in daylight, nobody saw who did it. Either the shooter picked a moment when all the passers-by happened to be looking away, or they were all satisfied that the act was not a threat to anyone else. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946) Some of my thoughts on ethics 'n' stuff: https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1454 https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1903 https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=2744 Custom is evolutionary. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:02:00 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:02:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] HIV News Message-ID: <1D6B1C06-A4E5-4C88-8F4E-3D820AB53AAA@gmail.com> TITLE: In a first, a person?s immune system fought HIV ? and won https://www.sciencenews.org/article/hiv-immune-system-elite-controllers ?Analysis of more than 1.5 billion cells taken from a patient known as EC2 showed no functional HIV copies in any of them, researchers report August 26 in Nature. The person still had some nonfunctional copies of the virus. While no one can say for sure that intact virus isn?t hiding in a cell somewhere in this person?s body, the finding suggests that some people?s immune systems can get the upper hand, essentially eliminating the pernicious and persistent virus. A second person, EC1, had just one functional copy of HIV in more than 1 billion blood cells analyzed. And that copy of HIV was stuck in what is essentially a genetic supermax prison. That genetic lockup may be key to being able to naturally control the virus. Those two people are part of a rare group of people known as elite controllers, meaning they are able to maintain very low or undetectable levels of HIV without antiretroviral drugs. These people have no symptoms or clear signs of damage from the virus. ?It?s not even that we?re talking about a few months or a few years. It?s extremely long-term,? says Satya Dandekar, an HIV researcher at the University of California, Davis School of Medicine who was not involved in the study. In contrast, for 99.5 percent or more of the world?s 35 million people infected with the virus, drugs are the only way to keep the virus down.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 21:03:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:03:18 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <036b01d67bec$53901c60$fab05520$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] neuroscience questions I learned to seize every opportunity to not fly paragliders. spike must keep you really busy bill w Eh, it helped me learn to multitask. Now anytime I am doing anything, including weight loss activities in the bathroom, I am simultaneously taking advantage of the opportunity to not fly. Multitasking. It?s great. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 26 21:07:40 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:07:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> References: <02fc01d67bdf$274f9a20$75eece60$@rainier66.com> <030c01d67bdf$b28bacf0$17a306d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0edcf6a9-9883-802a-9e33-d1d9c21252cc@pobox.com> On 2020-8-26 12:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > I learned to seize every opportunity to not fly paragliders. I used to quarrel on twitter with someone who insisted that we need the regulatory state to remember best practices for us. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:17:58 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:17:58 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law and EP Message-ID: Henry Rivera wrote: > This may provide jumping off points for people interested in reading more > From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory?wprov=sfti1 The whole article seems to be a sub section on evolutionary psychology and it lists the main people in the field. Keith From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:26:48 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:26:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The law tells you to round up and shoot Jews. Is it okay to round them up? To shoot them? To help them escape? To lie and to forge paperwork to help them escape? SR Ballard > On Aug 26, 2020, at 10:04 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > >?The law is highly important and of course I didn't have to tell you that. But morality calls upon higher laws at times, and what's in the legal code is irrelevant?bill w > > Hi BillW > > Do let us run with that ball, shall we? > > What if one is an atheist. What is the Higher Law then? Does every atheist get to create her own? > > Suppose a guy is protesting your church and causing believers to fall away and apostatize. Is it a time to break the law in order to destroy that guy, calling up Higher Law? If morality demands it, is it OK to use phony evidence in court? Is the legal code irrelevant? > > Or suppose your Higher Law clearly says to slay the infidel. This is illegal of course, but right there it is, clearly stated in the Holy Book, rocks calling out there is a Jew hiding behind me, slay him. What if that constitutes Higher Law for the fidel? > > Everybody OK with that? > > I?m not. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 21:39:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:39:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law and EP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <038d01d67bf1$4fdda970$ef98fc50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the law and EP Henry Rivera wrote: > This may provide jumping off points for people interested in reading > more > From > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory?wprov=sfti1 >...The whole article seems to be a sub section on evolutionary psychology and it lists the main people in the field. Keith _______________________________________________ Keith a comment you made earlier is rattling around in my brain. You commented that you failed to convince anyone on EP. On the contrary. Those concepts make perfect sense to me, and did when you and I first discussed the matters nearly a quarter of a century ago. Your study benefitted us. I don't see that much push-back on these matters. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 21:53:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:53:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law and EP In-Reply-To: <038d01d67bf1$4fdda970$ef98fc50$@rainier66.com> References: <038d01d67bf1$4fdda970$ef98fc50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: >...The whole article seems to be a sub section on evolutionary psychology and it lists the main people in the field. Keith Keith a comment you made earlier is rattling around in my brain. You commented that you failed to convince anyone on EP. On the contrary. Those concepts make perfect sense to me, and did when you and I first discussed the matters nearly a quarter of a century ago. Your study benefitted us. I don't see that much push-back on these matters. spike *I don't get it, Keith. Is that all you got out of that page?? And Spike is right. **I have identified myself in a post some time ago as an evolutionary psychologist,**though not nearly as up on that field as many of you since I only became fully **aware of it after I retired. The only problem I see in the field is that of every **field: It wants to claim more data as being supportive of it than it can do with any validity. Common error. (I do not know why posts that I reply to from **Spike show up initially grayed out. I have to bold them to make them readable.)* *bill w.* do On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 4:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Behalf Of Keith Henson via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] the law and EP > > Henry Rivera wrote: > > > This may provide jumping off points for people interested in reading > > more > > > From > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory?wprov=sfti1 > > >...The whole article seems to be a sub section on evolutionary psychology > and it lists the main people in the field. > > Keith > _______________________________________________ > > > Keith a comment you made earlier is rattling around in my brain. You > commented that you failed to convince anyone on EP. On the contrary. > Those > concepts make perfect sense to me, and did when you and I first discussed > the matters nearly a quarter of a century ago. Your study benefitted us. > I > don't see that much push-back on these matters. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 26 21:56:39 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:56:39 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust Message-ID: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Someone mentioned language learning, triggering this thought that was recently on my mind: Suppose technology exists to make you quickly fluent in a language of your choice. (For even more counterfactual fun, the menu may include long-dead languages, provided that they were spoken by more than a Dunbar number.) You do not know how many languages your brain, even if enhanced, can hold; the limit varies from person to person. So you choose them one by one until you hit the limit. What are your first dozen choices? You may specify indirectly, like "the language understood by the greatest number of people in the New World in 1491". -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 21:57:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 14:57:26 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> From: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] the law The law tells you to round up and shoot Jews. Is it okay to round them up? To shoot them? To help them escape? To lie and to forge paperwork to help them escape? SR Ballard The law doesn?t do that fortunately. The reference you made is to Nazi Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone. They were doing that, and handing one guy way too much power, which was promptly abused in a most horrifying way. Stalin did that (swearing allegiance to him personally) Mao did that (having school children sing songs about what a great guy he was.) We must always keep in mind that bad things happen when we make personalities too big a part of the picture. To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. Nothing that I recognize as law does that. Law would prevent that. It is a feature of the military that they train officers in refusing illegal orders. Regarding law, I have had a rather disturbing observation with regard to orders from Washington DC to do this or do that on covid-19 that we were told applied to citizens. POTUS doesn?t command citizens. She commands the military. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 22:31:16 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:31:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> > >The law doesn?t do that fortunately. I?m so excited that you realize hypothetical situations are hypothetical. Answer the question. Would you, or would you not, participate in the genocide of the Jewish People? > To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. Except when law does do that. Like in Germany, where it was the law. > Nothing that I recognize as law does that. So if a law asks you to so something you abhor, it?s magically not a law anymore? > Law would prevent that. Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal. > It is a feature of the military that they train officers in refusing illegal orders. And yet they still give illegal orders to troops, and still send those same troops to military jail for refusing to follow them. Weird. >rather disturbing observation with regard to orders from Washington DC to do this or do that on covid-19 If people didn?t treat it as an insane power-grab, then it wouldn?t have been like this. We never reacted this way to H1N1. SR Ballard > On Aug 26, 2020, at 4:57 PM, wrote: > > > > From: SR Ballard > Subject: Re: [ExI] the law > > The law tells you to round up and shoot Jews. > > Is it okay to round them up? > To shoot them? > To help them escape? > To lie and to forge paperwork to help them escape? > > SR Ballard > > > > The law doesn?t do that fortunately. The reference you made is to Nazi Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone. They were doing that, and handing one guy way too much power, which was promptly abused in a most horrifying way. Stalin did that (swearing allegiance to him personally) Mao did that (having school children sing songs about what a great guy he was.) > > We must always keep in mind that bad things happen when we make personalities too big a part of the picture. > > To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. Nothing that I recognize as law does that. Law would prevent that. It is a feature of the military that they train officers in refusing illegal orders. > > Regarding law, I have had a rather disturbing observation with regard to orders from Washington DC to do this or do that on covid-19 that we were told applied to citizens. POTUS doesn?t command citizens. She commands the military. > > spike > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 26 22:32:16 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:32:16 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-8-26 14:57, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > The law doesn?t do that fortunately.? The reference you made is to Nazi > Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone.? They were > doing that, and handing one guy way too much power, which was promptly > abused in a most horrifying way.? Stalin did that (swearing allegiance > to him personally) Mao did that (having school children sing songs about > what a great guy he was.) On another hand: In a celebrity culture, it?s useful to be able to put a face to what would otherwise be a shadowy menace. The Chinese get away with a ton of stuff just because they eschew the Colonel Gaddafi pillbox hat and the Saddamite turtleneck and Village People moustache and run their tyranny with a bunch of boring interchangeable guys in specs and cheap lounge suits. Mark Steyn said it. My link to where I found it is broken. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 22:46:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:46:20 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> From: SR Ballard Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:31 PM To: spike at rainier66.com Cc: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] the law >The law doesn?t do that fortunately. >?I?m so excited that you realize hypothetical situations are hypothetical. Answer the question. Would you, or would you not, participate in the genocide of the Jewish People? Of course not. To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. >?Except when law does do that. Like in Germany, where it was the law? Germany was a dictatorship at the time. The US is not a dictatorship. Our system was set up to prevent that. We saw that danger before Germany did by about a century and a half. Nothing that I recognize as law does that. >?So if a law asks you to so something you abhor, it?s magically not a law anymore? If it is an illegal law (contrary to the constitution) then it is not only not law, it is our duty as citizens to refuse. >?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal? Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? >?And yet they still give illegal orders to troops, and still send those same troops to military jail for refusing to follow them. Weird? Example please? >?If people didn?t treat it as an insane power-grab, then it wouldn?t have been like this. We never reacted this way to H1N1. ?SR Ballard SR that was perhaps one of the most insightful comments I have seen on the topic. Notice some things about covid-19, H1N1 and power grabbing: the federal government was criticized for doing this and that, and not doing this and that. But the federal government has surprisingly little authority on these kinds of things. For instance, POTUS does not have the authority to order citizens to wear masks, to shut down businesses, to declare what businesses are essential and which are not. I see nothing in the constitution that would allow POTUS to do any of that. There were never any laws passed, congress was busy with other matters in January 2020 if you recall. Governors have authority to do more, and we saw a variety of approaches. The California governor mandated masks, but never passed a law. I didn?t wear one outdoors. I wore one in businesses, and still do. Outdoors, I do not. County health officials gave guidelines, which impacted school closures. Ours are still closed. What was different this time is that a tragedy was used as an insane power grab. Politics got in the way of science. Things go badly when that happens. Interesting aside: there is a reason why I am watching the Sturgis rally. There are no politics involved, no way to leverage a political advantage. Shutting down Sturgis was not an option, any more than anyone can shut down any city. The bikers were coming, regardless. Governors couldn?t stop them. The tribes couldn?t stop them. So? no one takes responsibility but the individuals themselves. No one to blame. So? now we just watch the numbers and calculate. So far so good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 22:52:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:52:50 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: C'mon Spike, play fair. Tell of a situation where you would break the law because of a clash between it and your conscience. In America now. bill w On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 5:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* SR Ballard > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:31 PM > *To:* spike at rainier66.com > *Cc:* ExI chat list > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] the law > > > > > > >The law doesn?t do that fortunately. > > > > >?I?m so excited that you realize hypothetical situations are > hypothetical. Answer the question. Would you, or would you not, participate > in the genocide of the Jewish People? > > > > > > Of course not. > > > > To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. > > > > >?Except when law does do that. Like in Germany, where it was the law? > > > > Germany was a dictatorship at the time. The US is not a dictatorship. > Our system was set up to prevent that. We saw that danger before Germany > did by about a century and a half. > > > > > > > > Nothing that I recognize as law does that. > > > > >?So if a law asks you to so something you abhor, it?s magically not a law > anymore? > > > > If it is an illegal law (contrary to the constitution) then it is not only > not law, it is our duty as citizens to refuse. > > > > >?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just > makes things illegal? > > > > Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? > > > > >?And yet they still give illegal orders to troops, and still send those > same troops to military jail for refusing to follow them. Weird? > > > > Example please? > > > > > > >?If people didn?t treat it as an insane power-grab, then it wouldn?t have > been like this. We never reacted this way to H1N1. ?SR Ballard > > > > SR that was perhaps one of the most insightful comments I have seen on the > topic. > > > > Notice some things about covid-19, H1N1 and power grabbing: the federal > government was criticized for doing this and that, and not doing this and > that. But the federal government has surprisingly little authority on > these kinds of things. > > > > For instance, POTUS does not have the authority to order citizens to wear > masks, to shut down businesses, to declare what businesses are essential > and which are not. I see nothing in the constitution that would allow > POTUS to do any of that. There were never any laws passed, congress was > busy with other matters in January 2020 if you recall. > > > > Governors have authority to do more, and we saw a variety of approaches. > The California governor mandated masks, but never passed a law. I didn?t > wear one outdoors. I wore one in businesses, and still do. Outdoors, I do > not. > > > > County health officials gave guidelines, which impacted school closures. > Ours are still closed. > > > > What was different this time is that a tragedy was used as an insane power > grab. Politics got in the way of science. Things go badly when that > happens. > > > > Interesting aside: there is a reason why I am watching the Sturgis rally. > There are no politics involved, no way to leverage a political advantage. > Shutting down Sturgis was not an option, any more than anyone can shut down > any city. The bikers were coming, regardless. Governors couldn?t stop > them. The tribes couldn?t stop them. So? no one takes responsibility but > the individuals themselves. No one to blame. > > > > So? now we just watch the numbers and calculate. So far so good. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Aug 26 22:58:17 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 15:58:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <386fd928-3606-e4ea-a3c5-36906244ae41@pobox.com> >>> To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. > *From:* SR Ballard >> ?Except when law does do that. Like in Germany, where it was the law? On 2020-8-26 15:46, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Germany was a dictatorship at the time.? The US is not a dictatorship. > Our system was set up to prevent that.? We saw that danger before > Germany did by about a century and a half. I'm thinking of a word. It begins with S. Can you guess it? The next letter is L. How about now? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 23:09:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:09:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the law C'mon Spike, play fair. Tell of a situation where you would break the law because of a clash between it and your conscience. In America now. bill w The best example I can think of is draft dodging. I would go to Canada if America engaged in an illegal war and needed guys. If it was a war declared by congress, I would report for duty. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 23:36:24 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 19:36:24 -0400 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 6:03 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Someone mentioned language learning, triggering this thought that was > recently on my mind: > > Suppose technology exists to make you quickly fluent in a language of > your choice. (For even more counterfactual fun, the menu may include > long-dead languages, provided that they were spoken by more than a > Dunbar number.) > ... > What are your first dozen choices? You may specify indirectly, like > "the language understood by the greatest number of people in the New > World in 1491". > Math. Physics. Chemistry. Biology. Sign. IPv4, Enochin, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Japanese I'm assuming by "fluent" you grant that my universe contains the entire context of these protocols for information exchange, and that I am fully aware if how/ why that protocol exists and its use in the universe. I didn't think if be able to list a whole dozen, but i think the universe containing those 12 contexts is sufficiently complex to be thoroughly interesting. Thoughts? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 23:41:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:41:05 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: > > > C'mon Spike, play fair. Tell of a situation where you would break the law > because of a clash between it and your conscience. In America now. bill w > > > > The best example I can think of is draft dodging. I would go to Canada if > America engaged in an illegal war and needed guys. If it was a war > declared by congress, I would report for duty. > > > > spike > You will know - I don't. Have we had a legal war since WWII? And where would you stand on stealing the drug for your wife? bill w > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 23:42:24 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:42:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2D2B8EF5-6277-4C64-A349-CAA18EE5756A@gmail.com> Spike, so you would enforce the trail of tears and the Japanese internment? Segregation? Keep women from voting? Fight in Vietnam? SR Ballard -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 23:48:10 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 18:48:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <34EB635A-BFCD-4653-AEED-97E0280F2702@gmail.com> > >?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal? > > Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? The law prevents 0% of murders, as far as I can tell. I think people?s morals and their fear of consequences (not legal consequences) keep them from committing murder, on the whole. I would murder exactly the same number of people as I am currently planning to, if murder became legal tomorrow. That number is somewhere around 0. Would you suddenly murder an untold number of people if it were legal tomorrow? I think the vast majority of people would not. I even think the vast majority of people who would say they would, would not. When was the last time you were about to murder someone, and someone reminded you it was illegal and you said, oh, nope, you?re right! And if some group did go around murdering others, they themselves would be found and murdered, restoring the average number of murders to near 0 levels. SR Ballard > On Aug 26, 2020, at 5:46 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: SR Ballard > Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 3:31 PM > To: spike at rainier66.com > Cc: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] the law > > > >The law doesn?t do that fortunately. > > >?I?m so excited that you realize hypothetical situations are hypothetical. Answer the question. Would you, or would you not, participate in the genocide of the Jewish People? > > > Of course not. > > To answer your question, law doesn?t do that. > > >?Except when law does do that. Like in Germany, where it was the law? > > Germany was a dictatorship at the time. The US is not a dictatorship. Our system was set up to prevent that. We saw that danger before Germany did by about a century and a half. > > > > Nothing that I recognize as law does that. > > >?So if a law asks you to so something you abhor, it?s magically not a law anymore? > > If it is an illegal law (contrary to the constitution) then it is not only not law, it is our duty as citizens to refuse. > > >?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal? > > Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? > > >?And yet they still give illegal orders to troops, and still send those same troops to military jail for refusing to follow them. Weird? > > Example please? > > > > >?If people didn?t treat it as an insane power-grab, then it wouldn?t have been like this. We never reacted this way to H1N1. ?SR Ballard > > SR that was perhaps one of the most insightful comments I have seen on the topic. > > Notice some things about covid-19, H1N1 and power grabbing: the federal government was criticized for doing this and that, and not doing this and that. But the federal government has surprisingly little authority on these kinds of things. > > For instance, POTUS does not have the authority to order citizens to wear masks, to shut down businesses, to declare what businesses are essential and which are not. I see nothing in the constitution that would allow POTUS to do any of that. There were never any laws passed, congress was busy with other matters in January 2020 if you recall. > > Governors have authority to do more, and we saw a variety of approaches. The California governor mandated masks, but never passed a law. I didn?t wear one outdoors. I wore one in businesses, and still do. Outdoors, I do not. > > County health officials gave guidelines, which impacted school closures. Ours are still closed. > > What was different this time is that a tragedy was used as an insane power grab. Politics got in the way of science. Things go badly when that happens. > > Interesting aside: there is a reason why I am watching the Sturgis rally. There are no politics involved, no way to leverage a political advantage. Shutting down Sturgis was not an option, any more than anyone can shut down any city. The bikers were coming, regardless. Governors couldn?t stop them. The tribes couldn?t stop them. So? no one takes responsibility but the individuals themselves. No one to blame. > > So? now we just watch the numbers and calculate. So far so good. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 23:49:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:49:09 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <2D2B8EF5-6277-4C64-A349-CAA18EE5756A@gmail.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> <2D2B8EF5-6277-4C64-A349-CAA18EE5756A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006601d67c03$7ebdc380$7c394a80$@rainier66.com> >?Spike, so you would enforce the trail of tears and the Japanese internment? Segregation? Keep women from voting? Fight in Vietnam? SR Ballard I wouldn?t. I would have opposed all of those. Of course I have the advantage of modern perspective. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Aug 26 23:54:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 16:54:30 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <003601d67bfd$e4a354e0$ade9fea0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007701d67c04$3dba47e0$b92ed7a0$@rainier66.com> >? Have we had a legal war since WWII? That?s the last declared war I have heard of. And where would you stand on stealing the drug for your wife? bill w I would sooner opt for a GoFundMe. I have no particular skill in burglary. The internet effort would be far more likely to succeed. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 27 00:02:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 17:02:50 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <34EB635A-BFCD-4653-AEED-97E0280F2702@gmail.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <34EB635A-BFCD-4653-AEED-97E0280F2702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009f01d67c05$680f1d30$382d5790$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the law >>>?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal? >>?Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? >?The law prevents 0% of murders, as far as I can tell. I think people?s morals and their fear of consequences (not legal consequences) keep them from committing murder, on the whole? SR Ballard Hi SR, Do you suppose law prevents the same person from committing a second murder? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 01:16:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 20:16:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] reheat pizza Message-ID: I have experimented with a variety of ways using burners, microwave, etc. Here is what works: To reheat pizza: Put a thin skillet on the burner and turn it to High - after a couple of minutes put your pieces of pizza on it and wait - use a spatula to check the bottom so it won't burn - turn the burner to medium - get a lid handy and put about 1 teaspoon of water on one edge of the skillet and cover it - the idea is to let steam heat the top while the bottom crust stays dry - repeat with water a time or two. Maybe 4 minutes total to keep from eating cold pizza (not that there is anything wrong with that). You get a crisp crust even if you didn't have one to begin with. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 03:34:34 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2020 22:34:34 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <009f01d67c05$680f1d30$382d5790$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <51764402-2840-42F1-B2CD-488B00D57468@gmail.com> <001401d67bfa$b8c53260$2a4f9720$@rainier66.com> <34EB635A-BFCD-4653-AEED-97E0280F2702@gmail.com> <009f01d67c05$680f1d30$382d5790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <5C86C060-46FA-4AF0-83C8-AB5A7D100630@gmail.com> The law doesn?t. Law ENFORCEMENT does, IF it catches him. SR Ballard > On Aug 26, 2020, at 7:02 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > On Behalf Of SR Ballard via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] the law > > >>>?Law can?t prevent anything. The law doesn?t prevent murder. It just makes things illegal? > > >>?Does it prevent any murder? What percentage? > > >?The law prevents 0% of murders, as far as I can tell. I think people?s morals and their fear of consequences (not legal consequences) keep them from committing murder, on the whole? SR Ballard > > > > > Hi SR, > > Do you suppose law prevents the same person from committing a second murder? > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 07:59:40 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 00:59:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Message-ID: <24F8218E-AD02-4345-8650-3640D8A7013B@gmail.com> On Aug 26, 2020, at 3:08 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?Someone mentioned language learning, triggering this thought that was recently on my mind: > > Suppose technology exists to make you quickly fluent in a language of your choice. (For even more counterfactual fun, the menu may include long-dead languages, provided that they were spoken by more than a Dunbar number.) You do not know how many languages your brain, even if enhanced, can hold; the limit varies from person to person. So you choose them one by one until you hit the limit. > > What are your first dozen choices? You may specify indirectly, like "the language understood by the greatest number of people in the New World in 1491". Spanish Mandarin Japanese Korean Russian French Hindi/Urdu Farsi Classical Latin Attic Greek Sanskrit Classical Arabic Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:28:40 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:28:40 +0100 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > Someone mentioned language learning, triggering this thought that was > recently on my mind: > > Suppose technology exists to make you quickly fluent in a language of > your choice. (For even more counterfactual fun, the menu may include > long-dead languages, provided that they were spoken by more than a > Dunbar number.) You do not know how many languages your brain, even if > enhanced, can hold; the limit varies from person to person. So you > choose them one by one until you hit the limit. > > What are your first dozen choices? You may specify indirectly, like > "the language understood by the greatest number of people in the New > World in 1491". > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ That technology already exists. There are smartphone apps that translate speech and speak the translation back. One example - Amazing for traveling abroad! Google does Latin translation as well. BillK From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 08:35:05 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 01:35:05 -0700 Subject: [ExI] neuroscience questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9087C7DC-74E6-4054-AF20-A48EA99E4893@gmail.com> On Aug 26, 2020, at 12:10 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Does anyone know why it is that pro athletes and, just for another example, classically trained musicians need to practice so much? > > My violinist friend said: "If I don't practice today, I know it. If I don't practice tomorrow, you'll know it. If I don't practice the next day, everyone will know it." > > Could it be that rarely practiced skills representing certain brain areas get taken over by new concerns? I have no clue. Your friend was paraphrasing Jascha Heifetz. (No worries. I?ve heard too many musicians pass that one off without attribution since college.) By the way, my violin-playing was so bad, no one wanted me to practice. (Please no on bring up the anecdote about George III. I?ve used that one myself several times.) Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 11:58:05 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:58:05 -0400 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 6:10 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The law tells you to round up and shoot Jews. >> Is it okay to round them up? >> To shoot them? >> To help them escape? >> To lie and to forge paperwork to help them escape? >> SR Ballard > > > > > *The law doesn?t do that fortunately. The reference you made is to > Nazi Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone.* > You obviously haven't been watching the Republican Convention. I can't say I blame you. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 27 12:12:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 05:12:41 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004d01d67c6b$5d4312b0$17c93810$@rainier66.com> From: John Clark > The law doesn?t do that fortunately. The reference you made is to Nazi Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone. You obviously haven't been watching the Republican Convention. I can't say I blame you. John K Clark I didn?t watch it, but I read over a few transcripts from both of the mainstream party speakers. I can read a lot faster than they can talk. That caused me to think a lot about evolutionary psychology. The two parties are offering a far different vision: one is dark and foreboding, threatening, which leads to war. The other is bright, hopeful, optimistic, which leads to prosperity and peace. Apparently one of these outfits gets the whole EP thing. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 14:39:40 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:39:40 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Improving schools Message-ID: https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-id-change-school/ How I?d Change School ? By Mark Sisson ?Almost no one?s happy with school these days. Kindergarteners are sitting in front of devices for 4-5 hours a day. Teens are dreading daily online meetings and getting prescriptions for ?Zoom fatigue.? Some of this is growing pains?kids, teachers, and parents are being asked to completely change the way they do school on a moment?s notice, and change like that doesn?t come easily. But that?s not the only reason. There just aren?t many great options left. Parents don?t want their kids stuck on the computer all day, nor do they want them in class masked up and unable to touch or play with their peers. There are big problems in every direction. Change is in the air. People are fed up with the new way of doing things and realizing they don?t like the old way all that much either. I don?t have kids in school anymore, but I do have a grandkid who will be in school soon. Besides, everyone who lives in a country has a stake in the school system of that country. The schools shape the people who become the adults who shape the nation. That affects everyone. Something needs to change. If I could wave a wand, how would I change school? Here?s what I?d like to see: Later start times 8:30, 9 AM. This would give kids extra sleep. Everyone needs sleep, but kids need it more than anyone. It helps them consolidate memories and recently learned skills.1 Even the CDC has called for later start times2 for schools. as kids especially need a lot of sleep. Kids are staying up later and later than ever before. Particularly in studies using teen subjects, delaying school start times by 25-60 minutes can increase total sleep duration by 25-75 minutes per weeknight.3 That?s up to more than an hour of extra sleep a night, five days a week. That?s a huge ROI. There?s more beneficial fallout that the studies don?t address. When you push the start time back, the mornings are less stressful for everyone. Instead of giving your kid a ziploc bag full of dry cereal, you?re scrambling eggs, slicing apples, and frying bacon. You?re not worried about being late, you?re taking your time. Hell, maybe there?s even time to walk to school. Stay on track no matter where you are! Sign up for our Primal and Keto Guide to Eating Out Better food Just go full whole food Primal with a macronutrient-agnostic bent: Full-fat dairy Real meat and eggs and seafood Fruit and vegetables Starchy tubers No seed oils or gluten or refined sugar That may sound strict. You may think ?kids would never go for that.? It may be overkill. And you couldn?t control what kids ate at home or brought for lunch, and not everyone would participate in the program. But just imagine: We?d finally see what could happen if you removed most of the processed seed oil-and-sugar-and gluten-laden junk from kids? diets?on a national scale. A nation of kids eating eggs and fruit and kefir and potatoes cooked in butter for breakfast, a burger patty and yam for lunch with a side of full-fat milk. You?ve seen what getting some good protein, fat, and clean carbs in your kids for breakfast and lunch can do. Imagine everyone else?s kids eating the same thing. That could change the world. Walking to school I used to run to school every single day. That?s actually how I got into cross country running at an early age: I realized I could beat the bus to school if I just ran. So I did. Those daily runs to and from school introduced little bouts of pure freedom and adventure into my life that made me who I am today. Until several years ago, kids weren?t even allowed to show up to school alone. They needed to be dropped off or accompanied by a parent or guardian. I?d go a step further. At my ideal grade school, the default would be arriving alone. If a parent wanted to drop their kid off, they?d need a permission slip and doctor?s note. I?m kidding, of course. But kids these days need that freedom and adventure more than ever, however they can get it. There?s not as much to go around. More and longer recess Recess is shrinking. Most grade school kids are lucky to get a single 20 minute block of free outdoor play per day. Some schools don?t even give first graders any recess at all, and a disturbing number of them even hold recess hostage as a punishment for poor behavior or performance.4 This is a travesty, not only because recess (and PE) increase physical activity and step count, but because physical activity improves learning and reduces acting out. In one Texas grade school, implementing four 15-minute recesses a day reduced bullying and tattling, improved focus and eye-contact, and even stopped the neurotic pencil chewing teachers were noticing among their students. The kids are testing ahead of schedule despite less actual classroom time and test prep. Recess improves academic performance, and physical play improves subsequent learning capacity. Give a kid a 15 minute play break for every 45 minutes of book learning and he?ll learn more than the kid who studies an hour straight. Recess needs to be longer. The absolute daily minimum is 45 minutes (spread across 1-3 sessions including lunch), though I?d like to see the entire day spent outside with movement interlaced with learning/lessons. Hold classes outdoors The benefits are immense and irrefutable: Kids with ADHD can focus better after exposure to green spaces. Kids who frequently spend time outdoors get sick less often and show better motor skills and physical coordination.5 Kids with exposure (even just visual) to nature have better self-discipline.6 For kids dealing with stress at home (who isn?t?), nature can act as a buffer.7 Kids with consistent daily sun exposure have more vitamin D, better circadian rhythms, and stronger immune systems. The more outdoor time a kid gets, the lower his or her risk of myopia. Add to those the general benefits of green space seen in all humans and the outdoor classroom setting looks more attractive. Ideally, the entire school day takes place outdoors, but even a small daily nature excursion is better than nothing. Walking classrooms We?ve all heard of Socrates? peripatetic school, where he?d lead his students on walks around Greece while lecturing and leading discussions. This is incredible. Who else loves going on hikes with friends not just for the nature, but for the incredible conversations you end up embroiled in? There?s something special about physical movement that stimulates mental movement. Physical flow promotes cognitive blood flow. The kids could make stops to write and do some deeper work, but class discussions and lectures could easily happen on the move. More deep work, one subject per day This isn?t the only way, but I think many kids and teens would thrive on a ?one subject a day? schedule that allowed them to really immerse themselves in a subject or project. Imagine reading an entire book from start to finish. Imagine working on an art project all day long. Imagine getting lost in history, going down rabbit hole after rabbit hole, following whatever thread tugs on you. Kids tend to obsess over things. Schools should take advantage of that. Eliminate almost all rules at recess Kids should be able to climb trees, roughhouse, leap fences, ride bikes, play tag, play dodgeball, play butts up, and all the other classic playground games that carry a modicum of danger. Kids shouldn?t be expelled for playing cops and robbers or making finger guns. Staff intervenes only if kids request it or injury is imminent. The whole point is to introduce kids to risk. Navigating relatively small risks (skinned knee, hurt feeling, short fall, wounded pride) builds mettle and prepares developing brains to deal with bigger risks. It makes them more anti-fragile. People talk about school as preparation for the meat grinder of ?real life,? but most schools eliminate any real prep work because adults mediate every conflict, grievance, hogged sandbox, and stolen dinosaur toy. Tons of climbable structures and trees Kids (and adults) need to climb things. It?s fun, it builds strength, and introduces manageable risk and responsibility. You get stuck up in a tree, you get yourself unstuck. You can climb all the trees you want, but you?ll have to get yourself down. I?m imagining networks of trees and structures all over the playground and campus to the point that a kid could get anywhere without touching the ground. There?s actually a great book about this: The Baron in the Trees, by Italo Calvino. It?s about a young Italian nobleman who runs away from home as a child to live in the trees surrounding his estate and stays there for the rest of his life, never touching the ground. No busy homework The evidence for homework is weak to nonexistent.8 Instead of giving five year olds an hour of paperwork to complete or 15 year olds four hours of work, give them open-ended suggestions. ?Read a book with your parents and tell the class about your favorite part of the story.? ?Find 7 leaves, each from a different tree, and bring them to class.? ?Start a business. Come up with a business plan, a product, and marketing materials.? Enabling deep work and deep learning during the school day would make most ?busy? homework pointless. Bring back ?tracks? Only don?t limit these tracks to ?academics.? It?s not that you split the kids up by ?smart? or ?dumb? or ?advanced? and ?behind.? You allow the kids to establish their own track based on interest and aptitude. You get more specific with the tracks. Someone wants to just do math all day? Let them focus on that. Someone shows promise as an artist? Let them draw and paint to their heart?s content. Someone?s obsessed with video games? Let them learn to make their own. Obviously, even a math-obsessed whiz kid should also read great literature, but I?m not sure the math whiz kid needs to be writing essays on ?Brave New World.? Simply reading it is probably enough. More doing and playing Humans learn best by doing. Everyone accepts that we learn languages best by speaking it or being thrown into a foreign country, not by reading language lessons. But learning through doing works for everything. Learning the fundamentals matters, but only if you also practice them. I learned to write by reading and aping other writers. This even works in subjects like math. One American educator, Benezet, showed that children who delayed formal math instruction in favor of natural math instruction (doing) until 8th grade quickly caught up to and outperformed kids taught the traditional way. You could very well teach simple arithmetic by playing card games like Blackjack or Addition War or Subtraction War. You could teach (or reinforce) grammar by playing MadLibs. Or just giving kids cool things to read. What else? More trades Don?t just bring back the old woodshop and metalshop. Introduce full-blown apprenticeship programs. Paid ones. Plumbing Masonry Carpentry Electrician Agriculture Automotive And so on Name a profession and you can probably figure out an apprenticeship program. Heck, this already exists in many states. Check out the listings for California apprenticeships for an idea of what?s possible. Many high schools can even set this up. I bet there are guidance counselors who currently do it, or have. But is it the norm? No. It should be. Lots of kids would really benefit. Teach basic competencies There are basic physical skills everyone should learn. Swimming Self defense First aid Physical fitness (running, sprinting, climbing, strength standards) And other ?non-physical? core competencies: Budgeting Cooking Cleaning Laundry Bill paying/taxes Home economics, in other words. Mixed ages Segregation by age makes little evolutionary sense (until the public school system arose, children had historically hung out with other children of all ages). As a kid, whenever we weren?t in school I?d rove around my neighborhood in age-desegregated packs. It was all very fluid. We?d have the bigger kids leading the way, the smaller ones tagging along, and because everyone pretty much lived in the same place their whole lives, kids would graduate into different roles and new kids would always be coming up in the ranks. Without age mixing children miss out on many benefits:9 Younger kids can?t learn from older kids. Older kids can?t learn how to teach younger kids. Younger kids can only do age appropriate activities. With an older kid?s help, a younger child can accomplish much more. Two 4-year olds throwing a frisbee around is an exercise in futility. Include a 7-year old and it gets a whole lot more productive for everyone. If any of this sounds good to you, what are you waiting for? No politician is going to make this happen. The Department of Education certainly won?t make these changes. You have to make it happen, either by finding a school that does this or creating your own curriculum at home. If you have the option, consider gathering together with a few other families to form a ?pod? to realize your vision. If that?s not feasible, get together with other like-minded families and petition your district for incremental change. No one school or parent can enact all these changes. Some conflict. Some are downright impossible in certain environments. But even if you just implemented one or two of these ideas, you could have a positive impact. What do you think, readers? Parents, kids, non-parents, teens, teachers: what does your ideal vision of early education look like? What would you change? What you add or take away to the current set up? Thanks for reading. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 27 14:47:17 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 07:47:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Message-ID: <1d1d33ce-6c11-971f-79ec-1eed1a58a6be@pobox.com> > On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 23:04, Anton Sherwood wrote: >> Suppose technology exists to make you quickly fluent >> in a language of your choice. On 2020-8-27 01:28, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > That technology already exists. > There are smartphone apps that translate speech and speak the translation back. With such a device, can you enjoy a foreign movie as if it were in your native language? Can it make puns for you? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 15:16:17 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:16:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <004d01d67c6b$5d4312b0$17c93810$@rainier66.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <004d01d67c6b$5d4312b0$17c93810$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <9063F3F6-415D-4978-BCEF-E912056F1157@gmail.com> I?m still at a loss as to why someone thought it was a good idea to take our cesspool topic back on to the main list where we would continue to cesspool about it. SR Ballard > On Aug 27, 2020, at 7:12 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > From: John Clark > > > The law doesn?t do that fortunately. The reference you made is to Nazi Germany, and a perfect example of why we don?t heil anyone. > > You obviously haven't been watching the Republican Convention. I can't say I blame you. > > John K Clark > > > > > I didn?t watch it, but I read over a few transcripts from both of the mainstream party speakers. I can read a lot faster than they can talk. That caused me to think a lot about evolutionary psychology. The two parties are offering a far different vision: one is dark and foreboding, threatening, which leads to war. The other is bright, hopeful, optimistic, which leads to prosperity and peace. > > Apparently one of these outfits gets the whole EP thing. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sen.otaku at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 15:29:25 2020 From: sen.otaku at gmail.com (SR Ballard) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:29:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Improving schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?d say I agree with about 90% of this article. And it would be good to see some stuff with the local schools like this. Having no kids, I?m not sure how seriously they will take me. But as Covid dies down I would like to start doing math tutoring one-two of my local schools. SR Ballard > On Aug 27, 2020, at 9:39 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-id-change-school/ > > How I?d Change School > ? > By Mark Sisson > > ?Almost no one?s happy with school these days. Kindergarteners are sitting in front of devices for 4-5 hours a day. Teens are dreading daily online meetings and getting prescriptions for ?Zoom fatigue.? Some of this is growing pains?kids, teachers, and parents are being asked to completely change the way they do school on a moment?s notice, and change like that doesn?t come easily. But that?s not the only reason. > > There just aren?t many great options left. Parents don?t want their kids stuck on the computer all day, nor do they want them in class masked up and unable to touch or play with their peers. There are big problems in every direction. > > Change is in the air. People are fed up with the new way of doing things and realizing they don?t like the old way all that much either. I don?t have kids in school anymore, but I do have a grandkid who will be in school soon. Besides, everyone who lives in a country has a stake in the school system of that country. The schools shape the people who become the adults who shape the nation. That affects everyone. Something needs to change. > > If I could wave a wand, how would I change school? > > Here?s what I?d like to see: > > Later start times > > 8:30, 9 AM. This would give kids extra sleep. Everyone needs sleep, but kids need it more than anyone. It helps them consolidate memories and recently learned skills.1 Even the CDC has called for later start times2 for schools. as kids especially need a lot of sleep. Kids are staying up later and later than ever before. Particularly in studies using teen subjects, delaying school start times by 25-60 minutes can increase total sleep duration by 25-75 minutes per weeknight.3 That?s up to more than an hour of extra sleep a night, five days a week. That?s a huge ROI. > > There?s more beneficial fallout that the studies don?t address. When you push the start time back, the mornings are less stressful for everyone. Instead of giving your kid a ziploc bag full of dry cereal, you?re scrambling eggs, slicing apples, and frying bacon. You?re not worried about being late, you?re taking your time. Hell, maybe there?s even time to walk to school. > > Stay on track no matter where you are! Sign up for our Primal and Keto Guide to Eating Out > > Better food > > Just go full whole food Primal with a macronutrient-agnostic bent: > > Full-fat dairy > Real meat and eggs and seafood > Fruit and vegetables > Starchy tubers > No seed oils or gluten or refined sugar > That may sound strict. You may think ?kids would never go for that.? It may be overkill. And you couldn?t control what kids ate at home or brought for lunch, and not everyone would participate in the program. But just imagine: We?d finally see what could happen if you removed most of the processed seed oil-and-sugar-and gluten-laden junk from kids? diets?on a national scale. > > A nation of kids eating eggs and fruit and kefir and potatoes cooked in butter for breakfast, a burger patty and yam for lunch with a side of full-fat milk. You?ve seen what getting some good protein, fat, and clean carbs in your kids for breakfast and lunch can do. Imagine everyone else?s kids eating the same thing. That could change the world. > > Walking to school > > I used to run to school every single day. That?s actually how I got into cross country running at an early age: I realized I could beat the bus to school if I just ran. So I did. Those daily runs to and from school introduced little bouts of pure freedom and adventure into my life that made me who I am today. Until several years ago, kids weren?t even allowed to show up to school alone. They needed to be dropped off or accompanied by a parent or guardian. I?d go a step further. At my ideal grade school, the default would be arriving alone. If a parent wanted to drop their kid off, they?d need a permission slip and doctor?s note. > > I?m kidding, of course. But kids these days need that freedom and adventure more than ever, however they can get it. There?s not as much to go around. > > More and longer recess > > Recess is shrinking. Most grade school kids are lucky to get a single 20 minute block of free outdoor play per day. Some schools don?t even give first graders any recess at all, and a disturbing number of them even hold recess hostage as a punishment for poor behavior or performance.4 This is a travesty, not only because recess (and PE) increase physical activity and step count, but because physical activity improves learning and reduces acting out. In one Texas grade school, implementing four 15-minute recesses a day reduced bullying and tattling, improved focus and eye-contact, and even stopped the neurotic pencil chewing teachers were noticing among their students. The kids are testing ahead of schedule despite less actual classroom time and test prep. Recess improves academic performance, and physical play improves subsequent learning capacity. Give a kid a 15 minute play break for every 45 minutes of book learning and he?ll learn more than the kid who studies an hour straight. > > Recess needs to be longer. The absolute daily minimum is 45 minutes (spread across 1-3 sessions including lunch), though I?d like to see the entire day spent outside with movement interlaced with learning/lessons. > > Hold classes outdoors > > The benefits are immense and irrefutable: > > Kids with ADHD can focus better after exposure to green spaces. > Kids who frequently spend time outdoors get sick less often and show better motor skills and physical coordination.5 > Kids with exposure (even just visual) to nature have better self-discipline.6 > For kids dealing with stress at home (who isn?t?), nature can act as a buffer.7 > Kids with consistent daily sun exposure have more vitamin D, better circadian rhythms, and stronger immune systems. > The more outdoor time a kid gets, the lower his or her risk of myopia. > Add to those the general benefits of green space seen in all humans and the outdoor classroom setting looks more attractive. > > Ideally, the entire school day takes place outdoors, but even a small daily nature excursion is better than nothing. > > Walking classrooms > > We?ve all heard of Socrates? peripatetic school, where he?d lead his students on walks around Greece while lecturing and leading discussions. This is incredible. Who else loves going on hikes with friends not just for the nature, but for the incredible conversations you end up embroiled in? There?s something special about physical movement that stimulates mental movement. Physical flow promotes cognitive blood flow. > > The kids could make stops to write and do some deeper work, but class discussions and lectures could easily happen on the move. > > More deep work, one subject per day > > This isn?t the only way, but I think many kids and teens would thrive on a ?one subject a day? schedule that allowed them to really immerse themselves in a subject or project. Imagine reading an entire book from start to finish. Imagine working on an art project all day long. Imagine getting lost in history, going down rabbit hole after rabbit hole, following whatever thread tugs on you. > > Kids tend to obsess over things. Schools should take advantage of that. > > Eliminate almost all rules at recess > > Kids should be able to climb trees, roughhouse, leap fences, ride bikes, play tag, play dodgeball, play butts up, and all the other classic playground games that carry a modicum of danger. Kids shouldn?t be expelled for playing cops and robbers or making finger guns. Staff intervenes only if kids request it or injury is imminent. The whole point is to introduce kids to risk. Navigating relatively small risks (skinned knee, hurt feeling, short fall, wounded pride) builds mettle and prepares developing brains to deal with bigger risks. It makes them more anti-fragile. People talk about school as preparation for the meat grinder of ?real life,? but most schools eliminate any real prep work because adults mediate every conflict, grievance, hogged sandbox, and stolen dinosaur toy. > > Tons of climbable structures and trees > > Kids (and adults) need to climb things. It?s fun, it builds strength, and introduces manageable risk and responsibility. You get stuck up in a tree, you get yourself unstuck. You can climb all the trees you want, but you?ll have to get yourself down. > > I?m imagining networks of trees and structures all over the playground and campus to the point that a kid could get anywhere without touching the ground. There?s actually a great book about this: The Baron in the Trees, by Italo Calvino. It?s about a young Italian nobleman who runs away from home as a child to live in the trees surrounding his estate and stays there for the rest of his life, never touching the ground. > > No busy homework > > The evidence for homework is weak to nonexistent.8 Instead of giving five year olds an hour of paperwork to complete or 15 year olds four hours of work, give them open-ended suggestions. > > ?Read a book with your parents and tell the class about your favorite part of the story.? > > ?Find 7 leaves, each from a different tree, and bring them to class.? > > ?Start a business. Come up with a business plan, a product, and marketing materials.? > > Enabling deep work and deep learning during the school day would make most ?busy? homework pointless. > > Bring back ?tracks? > > Only don?t limit these tracks to ?academics.? It?s not that you split the kids up by ?smart? or ?dumb? or ?advanced? and ?behind.? You allow the kids to establish their own track based on interest and aptitude. You get more specific with the tracks. > > Someone wants to just do math all day? Let them focus on that. > > Someone shows promise as an artist? Let them draw and paint to their heart?s content. > > Someone?s obsessed with video games? Let them learn to make their own. > > Obviously, even a math-obsessed whiz kid should also read great literature, but I?m not sure the math whiz kid needs to be writing essays on ?Brave New World.? Simply reading it is probably enough. > > More doing and playing > > Humans learn best by doing. Everyone accepts that we learn languages best by speaking it or being thrown into a foreign country, not by reading language lessons. But learning through doing works for everything. Learning the fundamentals matters, but only if you also practice them. I learned to write by reading and aping other writers. This even works in subjects like math. One American educator, Benezet, showed that children who delayed formal math instruction in favor of natural math instruction (doing) until 8th grade quickly caught up to and outperformed kids taught the traditional way. > > You could very well teach simple arithmetic by playing card games like Blackjack or Addition War or Subtraction War. > > You could teach (or reinforce) grammar by playing MadLibs. Or just giving kids cool things to read. > > What else? > > More trades > > Don?t just bring back the old woodshop and metalshop. Introduce full-blown apprenticeship programs. Paid ones. > > Plumbing > Masonry > Carpentry > Electrician > Agriculture > Automotive > And so on > Name a profession and you can probably figure out an apprenticeship program. Heck, this already exists in many states. Check out the listings for California apprenticeships for an idea of what?s possible. Many high schools can even set this up. I bet there are guidance counselors who currently do it, or have. But is it the norm? No. It should be. > > Lots of kids would really benefit. > > Teach basic competencies > > There are basic physical skills everyone should learn. > > Swimming > Self defense > First aid > Physical fitness (running, sprinting, climbing, strength standards) > And other ?non-physical? core competencies: > > Budgeting > Cooking > Cleaning > Laundry > Bill paying/taxes > Home economics, in other words. > > Mixed ages > > Segregation by age makes little evolutionary sense (until the public school system arose, children had historically hung out with other children of all ages). As a kid, whenever we weren?t in school I?d rove around my neighborhood in age-desegregated packs. It was all very fluid. We?d have the bigger kids leading the way, the smaller ones tagging along, and because everyone pretty much lived in the same place their whole lives, kids would graduate into different roles and new kids would always be coming up in the ranks. Without age mixing children miss out on many benefits:9 > > Younger kids can?t learn from older kids. > Older kids can?t learn how to teach younger kids. > Younger kids can only do age appropriate activities. With an older kid?s help, a younger child can accomplish much more. Two 4-year olds throwing a frisbee around is an exercise in futility. Include a 7-year old and it gets a whole lot more productive for everyone. > If any of this sounds good to you, what are you waiting for? No politician is going to make this happen. The Department of Education certainly won?t make these changes. You have to make it happen, either by finding a school that does this or creating your own curriculum at home. If you have the option, consider gathering together with a few other families to form a ?pod? to realize your vision. > > If that?s not feasible, get together with other like-minded families and petition your district for incremental change. > > No one school or parent can enact all these changes. Some conflict. Some are downright impossible in certain environments. But even if you just implemented one or two of these ideas, you could have a positive impact. > > What do you think, readers? Parents, kids, non-parents, teens, teachers: what does your ideal vision of early education look like? > > What would you change? What you add or take away to the current set up? > > Thanks for reading. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 27 16:46:49 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:46:49 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> Message-ID: <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> My top dozen: American Sign Language Japanese, because it's pretty, and for the movies Spanish whichever Chinese language is most spoken outside China Lojban. (For a scifi conlang I'd take Lojban's syntax and replace its lexicon, with Japanesque phonotactics.) Classical Arabic proto-Malayo-Polynesian, to avoid choosing among its descendants Classical Irish Finnish, partly because I have several discs of songs in Finnish; partly because of Tolkien. the ancestor of some large New World family, such as Na-Dene or Algic Middle High German, as in the Carmina Burana; I like its flavor Classical Chinese ... and because there's no such thing as enough: Hindi, for the movies proto-Bantu Plains Sign Talk Etruscan -- I'd pass it off as my own conlang. ;) Etruscan interests me partly because I suspect that a large fraction of Roman names come from Etruscan. Latin is (afaik) the only major branch of Indo-European that lacks a tradition of dithematic names (like Will-helm, Vladi-mir, Aristo-sthenes). Old Norse proto-Italo-Celtic Volap?k proto-Dravidian British Sign Language -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From hkeithhenson at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 16:54:51 2020 From: hkeithhenson at gmail.com (Keith Henson) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 09:54:51 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law and EP Message-ID: wrote: > Germany was a dictatorship at the time. The US is not a dictatorship. Not yet. But before Hitler took over, neither was Germany. Why did Germany convert to a dictatorship? Could it happen here? Do you care about these questions? EP provides an answer (not a happy answer) if you are willing to consider the psychological traits honed in the stone age. If you reject EP, then I suspect the conversion of Germany will forever be a mystery to you. > Our system was set up to prevent that. That was the intent. EP makes a case that it has been exploiting the resources and the relatively bright future that have prevented a dictator taking over rather than the "system." Laws and state governments are at most a few thousand years old. The psychological traits that emerge when people are facing a bleak future go back deep into the stone age. Among those traits is irrational leaders becoming attractive to the stressed people. Seen any of that lately? Keith From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 17:47:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:47:56 -0500 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> Message-ID: Don't forget the Catulli Carmina - equally good if not better bill w On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:49 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > My top dozen: > > American Sign Language > > Japanese, because it's pretty, and for the movies > > Spanish > > whichever Chinese language is most spoken outside China > > Lojban. (For a scifi conlang I'd take Lojban's syntax and replace its > lexicon, with Japanesque phonotactics.) > > Classical Arabic > > proto-Malayo-Polynesian, to avoid choosing among its descendants > > Classical Irish > > Finnish, partly because I have several discs of songs in Finnish; partly > because of Tolkien. > > the ancestor of some large New World family, such as Na-Dene or Algic > > Middle High German, as in the Carmina Burana; I like its flavor > > Classical Chinese > > ... > > and because there's no such thing as enough: > > Hindi, for the movies > > proto-Bantu > > Plains Sign Talk > > Etruscan -- I'd pass it off as my own conlang. ;) Etruscan interests me > partly because I suspect that a large fraction of Roman names come from > Etruscan. Latin is (afaik) the only major branch of Indo-European that > lacks a tradition of dithematic names (like Will-helm, Vladi-mir, > Aristo-sthenes). > > Old Norse > > proto-Italo-Celtic > > Volap?k > > proto-Dravidian > > British Sign Language > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 27 18:44:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 11:44:14 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the law In-Reply-To: <9063F3F6-415D-4978-BCEF-E912056F1157@gmail.com> References: <01bb01d67bba$3a81d8d0$af858a70$@rainier66.com> <039901d67bf3$e32217a0$a96646e0$@rainier66.com> <004d01d67c6b$5d4312b0$17c93810$@rainier66.com> <9063F3F6-415D-4978-BCEF-E912056F1157@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c901d67ca2$100bc000$30234000$@rainier66.com> From: SR Ballard Subject: Re: [ExI] the law I?m still at a loss as to why someone thought it was a good idea to take our cesspool topic back on to the main list where we would continue to cesspool about it. SR Ballard Oy vey, so right you are. I hit reply failing to notice that. Back to our temporary harsh exile please. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 19:48:00 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:48:00 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> References: <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?My top dozen: > > American Sign Language > > Japanese, because it's pretty, and for the movies > > Spanish > > whichever Chinese language is most spoken outside China > > Lojban. (For a scifi conlang I'd take Lojban's syntax and replace its lexicon, with Japanesque phonotactics.) > > Classical Arabic > > proto-Malayo-Polynesian, to avoid choosing among its descendants > > Classical Irish > > Finnish, partly because I have several discs of songs in Finnish; partly because of Tolkien. > > the ancestor of some large New World family, such as Na-Dene or Algic > > Middle High German, as in the Carmina Burana; I like its flavor > > Classical Chinese > > ... > > and because there's no such thing as enough: > > Hindi, for the movies > > proto-Bantu > > Plains Sign Talk > > Etruscan -- I'd pass it off as my own conlang. ;) Etruscan interests me partly because I suspect that a large fraction of Roman names come from Etruscan. Latin is (afaik) the only major branch of Indo-European that lacks a tradition of dithematic names (like Will-helm, Vladi-mir, Aristo-sthenes). > > Old Norse > > proto-Italo-Celtic > > Volap?k > > proto-Dravidian > > British Sign Language I was thinking Proto-, but looking over what?s believed to be PIE and Proto-Semitic, it probably wouldn?t help much in learning those languages descendants... I imagine the same is true for Precolumbian American languages, PAN, etc. Also, many of these languages were pre-literate, so I presume some of the language change was faster than, say, the change from Latin to a modern Romance language. Writing often acts as a conservative force as well as a standardizing one. Regards, Dan Sample my Kindle books at: http://author.to/DanUst -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 27 21:25:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 14:25:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Improving schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001d67cb8$a8f937a0$faeba6e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat c: Dave Sill sparge at gmail.com https://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-id-change-school/ How I?d Change School ? By Mark Sisson Dave, there is so much to say on this timely topic, but I want to make this brief and deal with only one aspect from the article. Regarding the comments about letting kids skin their knees, roughhouse and all that: our society is struggling with how to insure all this. Currently we are nearly helpless to make any such changes, because insurance rates will go up even more dramatically than they always have. We have the notion we can stop all fighting at school. It isn?t so much we are necessarily hoping to eradicate fighting for we know human nature. But we also know the school is held liable, costs go way up. Those pushing for reform and promote stiffer penalties for fighting fail to realize the penalties differentially harm lower-income families and communities, for it is generally recognized that fighting is more common in poorer communities than in richer ones. Lack of money is the root of all evil. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 27 21:33:22 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 14:33:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: References: <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> Message-ID: <7c2bd602-5f72-e4f9-086b-63fd8cf4ce71@pobox.com> > On Aug 27, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Anton Sherwood wrote in part: >> proto-Malayo-Polynesian, to avoid choosing among its descendants >> the ancestor of some large New World family, such as Na-Dene or Algic >> proto-Bantu >> proto-Italo-Celtic >> proto-Dravidian (forgot Turkic; can't decide where to rank it) On 2020-8-27 12:48, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > I was thinking Proto-, but > looking over what?s believed to be PIE and Proto-Semitic, it probably > wouldn?t help much in learning those languages descendants... I imagine > the same is true for Precolumbian American languages, PAN, etc. I list them to explore the range of possibility in syntax, morphology, phonology and so on, rather than to help learn their descendants -- though I'm more optimistic than you are; of course it depends on the time-depth. Except Proto-Italo-Celtic. My idea there is to make it the base for a group of languages in an alternate timeline. In my youth I was a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism, which is organized in (i think) twenty kingdoms; fifty years ago there were two, and they split .... I thought, wouldn't it be cool if each kingdom had its own ceremonial language, descended from that of its parent kingdom? Once a year or so, each king decrees an incremental change to the language. I've seen a couple of proposed binary trees of the major IE branches; each attempts to minimize the number of innovations that had to happen in two places in the tree. One of them looks like this: +-- Anatolian (Hittite) | | +-- Tocharian | | +--+ | +-- Celtic | +--+ | | +-- Italic +--+ | +-- everything else So, for that game, the two founding kingdoms' languages could be proto-IC and proto-Other. I don't know if any group has ever tried a LARP with diverging conlangs. Seems unlikely. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Aug 27 22:02:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 15:02:40 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Improving schools In-Reply-To: <001001d67cb8$a8f937a0$faeba6e0$@rainier66.com> References: <001001d67cb8$a8f937a0$faeba6e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003f01d67cbd$c92310f0$5b6932d0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com How I?d Change School ? By Mark Sisson >?Dave, there is so much to say on this timely topic, but I want to make this brief and deal with only one aspect from the article?spike We have a new ist to add to the list of ills in our world. We have had for a long time schools accused of being racist, sexist, classist, thisist and thatist, and have no doubt it is true regardless of what they do to combat these things. OK well, covid came along and they had to shut it down, not necessarily because it is so dangerous really but because the insurance rates for doing so are out of reach. Insurance companies don?t care about the ists, only about their potential costs and liability should the schools open and a bunch of students catch. Well, OK we get that: if bad things happen, insurance companies pay and they must pass on the expense to insurance customers. Somebody has to pay for everything. Insurance companies cannot manufacture wealth any more than the government can. When the shutdowns came, it was clear enough that remote learning was an inferior form of education for most students. But it isn?t racist: all were shut out regardless of that, same with sexist, same with economic status, so it was none of the usual ists to close the doors and open the computers. What I have found most striking from the start is that although most students don?t do as well, the better students do just fine, the learn as well outside class as in, and the best students do better with online learning than in person (fewer distractions.) Well, we need a new ist to describe the outrage that there is yet another factor causing the academic high achievers to achieve even more than before while the low achievers get almost nothing. The mean SAT score goes down while the sigma goes up. Clearly it isn?t fair. So what do we call that? Smartist? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:40:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:40:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Improving schools In-Reply-To: <003f01d67cbd$c92310f0$5b6932d0$@rainier66.com> References: <001001d67cb8$a8f937a0$faeba6e0$@rainier66.com> <003f01d67cbd$c92310f0$5b6932d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, you might want to look into fluid intelligence. Mostly what gets measured on IQ tests is crystallized intelligence. Fluid diminishes with age whereas the other can grow indefinitely. Fluid is what is responsible for creativity and the ability to adapt to novel or at least different conditions. Yeah, we older people get fixed in our ways. Like trying to measure creativity, measuring fluid intelligence has proven difficult. Some of the tests out there are just silly. But it's there and may be what your brightest students are good at, along with the usual memorization and so on. (An idea comes to mind: maybe what is lacking in idiot savants is fluid intelligence. Clearly they can memorize incredibly, which is crystallized.) I'll look into that. Never have researched it. I don't see it anymore, maybe because of the difficulty of measurement. Henry?? bill w On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 5:04 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > > > How I?d Change School > ? > By Mark Sisson > > > > >?Dave, there is so much to say on this timely topic, but I want to make > this brief and deal with only one aspect from the article?spike > > > > > > We have a new ist to add to the list of ills in our world. > > We have had for a long time schools accused of being racist, sexist, > classist, thisist and thatist, and have no doubt it is true regardless of > what they do to combat these things. > > OK well, covid came along and they had to shut it down, not necessarily > because it is so dangerous really but because the insurance rates for doing > so are out of reach. Insurance companies don?t care about the ists, only > about their potential costs and liability should the schools open and a > bunch of students catch. Well, OK we get that: if bad things happen, > insurance companies pay and they must pass on the expense to insurance > customers. Somebody has to pay for everything. Insurance companies cannot > manufacture wealth any more than the government can. > > When the shutdowns came, it was clear enough that remote learning was an > inferior form of education for most students. But it isn?t racist: all > were shut out regardless of that, same with sexist, same with economic > status, so it was none of the usual ists to close the doors and open the > computers. > > What I have found most striking from the start is that although most > students don?t do as well, the better students do just fine, the learn as > well outside class as in, and the best students do better with online > learning than in person (fewer distractions.) > > Well, we need a new ist to describe the outrage that there is yet another > factor causing the academic high achievers to achieve even more than before > while the low achievers get almost nothing. The mean SAT score goes down > while the sigma goes up. Clearly it isn?t fair. > > So what do we call that? Smartist? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Aug 27 23:53:23 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:53:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] language lust In-Reply-To: References: <20552a42-872c-1552-32fd-2afa1d4ff46f@pobox.com> <01b3366c-da8e-04bb-6f3b-362f57c83a65@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4294cb80-ce43-b83d-43b5-c3d7c99d4436@pobox.com> Are they also in MHG? :P On 2020-8-27 10:47, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Don't forget the Catulli Carmina - equally good if not better? ?bill w > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:49 AM Anton Sherwood wrote: > Middle High German, as in the Carmina Burana; I like its flavor -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 29 14:40:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 07:40:42 -0700 Subject: [ExI] the very best life Message-ID: <002201d67e12$624e5460$26eafd20$@rainier66.com> Some people have good lives, some don't, and we know some who have really terrible lives, perhaps the worst ever. Plenty of teenage girls claim that at some point, but who has the very best life? Who has the best life ever? Might be this guy, Double Diamond: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/most-expensive-sheep-double- diamond-auction-scotland-a9692761.html I suppose it would require us to open the criteria a bit to include non-human life forms, but if we do that, Double Diamond has it maaaaade, the lucky dog. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 29 14:45:55 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 07:45:55 -0700 Subject: [ExI] four years ago? Message-ID: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> I am very surprised this escaped my attention for four years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink I have been thinking about this sorta thing most of my life, then it quietly starts up nearby, four years ago, now up to 100 prole working there, with jillionaire backing, and I only hear about it today. Any Neuralink hipsters among us? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 29 15:13:56 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 08:13:56 -0700 Subject: [ExI] BrainNet Message-ID: <20200829081356.Horde.whJ0TBuJ_h9bTkIE9HfNAwF@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Not quite Brent Allsop's neural pony-tail but pretty close with the advantage of being non-invasive. Imagine two or three people connected by EEG and SQUID helmets. One person, the transmitter, watches a video game being played by the person he or she is connected to called the receiver. The receiver, on the other hand, controls the video game but can't see what is happening. Can they succeed at winning the video game by having the transmitter send technologically-enabled telepathic commands to the receiver? Apparently so: https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/brainnet-first-brain-to-brain-interface-for-people-tests-gameplay-using-just-the-mind-6923201.html Excerpt: ---------------------------- Telepathy has, so far, been clubbed under the same umbrella as magic tricks, voodoo and levitation as far as its feasibility is concerned. A team of neuroscience and computer science researchers has now inched humanity one step closer to making telepathy a reality. They have created a method that allows three people to work in concert to solve a problem ? using only their minds and a working internet connection. In other words, the first non-invasive interface connecting two human brains has been tested in a new experiment. Three researchers played a game of Tetris as part of a team, with two of them able to see the blocks and line but without any control over the game itself. The third person (the Receiver) can only see what the block is, but not whether it needs to be rotated to complete the line. Washington University researchers Rajesh Rao and Andrea Stocco were two of the three subjects tested using this brain-to-brain interface, having their brains controlled over the internet by foreign impulses. When Rajesh played the video game ? considered firing at a target, for instance ? the EEG picks up the signal and sends it across the internet to the Receiver's helmet. A setup called the Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) stimulates the part of Andrea?s brain controlling hand movement. This causes Andrea?s index finger to tap down on the keyboard, fire the cannon and blow up the target. Each of the two Senders can decide if the block needs to be rotated, after which their decision (picked up by electrodes attached to the brain) is conveyed from the Sender's brain to the Receiver's. The Receiver's brain then processes the information, which the body follows like a command ? in this case, the decision whether to rotate or not rotate a block. The game, therefore, is controlled directly by the brains of three people connected by wires and the internet in the hopes of completing and clearing a line (you've got to love classic Tetris). BrainNet: First brain-to-brain interface for people tests gameplay using just the mind Part of the BrainNet set up is transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) device, shown here. Image: University of Washington Both these players had an electroencephalogram (EEG) monitor and wires connecting different parts of their brains remotely, according to a press release by the University of Washington. "Once the Sender makes a decision about whether to rotate the block, they send 'Yes' or 'No' to the Receiver?s brain by concentrating on the corresponding light," said first author Linxing Preston Jiang, a student at the Allen School. This success demonstrates two key firsts: a brain-to-brain network made up of more than two people, and the ability to receive and send information to others using only one's brain and not language or visual inputs. The interface provided a direct connection between communication pathways of one animal's brain to another animal's. In the past, similar interfaces have been tested in rats, where they were seen to help rats collaborate with each other on a certain task. When one of the rats wasn't able to pick the right lever, the first rat noticed (but didn't get an additional reward for his contribution). The brain of this rat showed a round of task-related firing of neurons that made the second rat more likely to choose the right lever. TAGS AI BRAIN BRAIN TO BRAIN INTERFACE BRAINNET EEG Stuart LaForge From avant at sollegro.com Sat Aug 29 15:51:32 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 08:51:32 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds Message-ID: <20200829085132.Horde.PfUVW9MWS3sYLKldxIgq8qq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting John Clark: > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 10:07:41 -0400 > From: John Clark > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 8:26 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > * > You are correct that cow spelled in English can't say "moo". But >> what about cow spelled in DNA?* > > DNA contains information but for information to do anything it has to be > about something, and in this case the information is about a sequence of > Amino Acids in a protein. Information by itself can't do anything because > information by itself never changes, but matter can change, and a protein > is made of atoms and atoms are made of matter. What you are saying is classically correct, but at a quantum level you have a mathematical object i.e. information, described by Schrodinger called a wave function, that evolves over time. The information in the wave changes without needing to refer to changes in matter. Instead, all possible changes in matter, i.e. possible Everett worlds refer to it instead. At the quantum level, there seems to be some sort of Taoist Yin and Yang-style role-reversal happening between matter and information. In fact in Everett's theory, there is only ONE monolithic wave function, a universal one. > In Alan Turing's 1935 paper > he introduced something that we now call a Turing machine, he explained how > matter could be organized in such a way that it performed a calculation, he > gave us the basic principle behind the operation of all computers.A > mathematical book can't add 2+2, not even if it contains Turing's brilliant > paper, because the atoms in the book are not organized in the way that > Turing said they needed to be in to perform calculations. The important > thing to remember about a Turing machine is that it's a machine, and > machines are made of atoms, matter can change but information by itself > cannot, it needs the help of matter. And without change there is no > calculation or intelligence or consciousness. All actual computers that have been constructed thus far have been finite state machines approximating a Turing machines and not actual Turing machines which are purely abstract mathematical ideals that have infinite tape i.e. unlimited memory or hard drive space. The multiverse MIGHT be an actual Turing machine but nothing else can be. > * > Everett's theory could very well be right but would require >> the ontological existence of infinity as a physical quality.* > > > Maybe, but not necessarily, nobody knows. The number of Everett Worlds is > everything that is physically possible, and that might not be infinite, it > might just be astronomically large raised to the astronomically large power. Incidentally, the fact that an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space is necessary to describe the Universal Wave Function also implies the ontological existence of infinity. Because the number of universes grows over time in a faster-than-exponential fashion, a multiverse that is merely astronomically large raised to the astronomically large power would quickly run out of space. > >>> *Our Hubble volume alone has an information capacity of approximately >> 7*10^186 by Bekenstein's bound.* > > > That's the maximum amount of information according to Bekenstein that could > fit into a volume the size of the observable universe, but the actual > amount is far below the maximum, it's about 10^104 bits, 10^82 times less. > But never mind, the trouble with the Bekenstein's bound is that it > assumes General Relativity holds true all the way down to the Planck level > of 10^-35 Meters and 10^-43 Seconds, and that is almost certainly not true. > We won't really know how much information a given volume of space can > contain until we have a Quantum Theory of Gravity. Why do you think general relativity can't be true at Planck scales? General relativity is based on the fundamental principles of calculus which allow any infinitesimally small region of curved space-time to be approximated as flat Minkowski space. The Planck scale is really small but is not smaller than infinitely small. > * > Another issue with Everett's theory is that, if consciousness is >> truly unnecessary for the functioning of MWI, then how can you explain the >> experimentally verified phenomenon of the Quantum Zeno effect? Briefly, >> quantum states do not transition while they are being observed. So a >> radioactive atom would never decay so long as someone was continually >> observing it. So a radioactive atom would never decay so long as someone >> was continually observing it. Why would the universe always wait for you to >> look away before splitting into multiple quantum states? * > > > Suppose an atom has a halflife of one second, the universe splits and so do > I after one second. In one universe the atom decays and in the other it > doesn't. In the universe where it didn't decay after another second the > universe splits again, and again in one universe it decays but in the other > it has not, it survived for 2 full seconds. So there will be a version of > me that observes this atom with a one second half life surviving for 3 > seconds, and 4 seconds, and 5 years, and 6 centuries, and you name it. By > utilizing a series of increasingly complex and difficult procedures in the > lab it is possible for the lab to be in the universe that contains > observers that see the atom surviving for an arbitrary length of time. But > the longer the time and the more atoms involved the more difficult the > procedures become and is soon ridiculously impractical. That is a really good explanation for how the Quantum Zeno Effect could operate in Everett's multiverse, but it also seems that it allows researchers to freely choose to be in the universe where the atom takes an arbritrarily long time to decay with effort. This demonstrates that to a certain extent that we can choose the Everett branch we find ourselves in. That sounds like free will to me, contrary to Giulio Prisco's notion that MWI is incompatible with such. Stuart LaForge From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 19:15:48 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:15:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] four years ago? In-Reply-To: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> References: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I am very surprised this escaped my attention for four years: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink > > > > I have been thinking about this sorta thing most of my life, then it > quietly starts up nearby, four years ago, now up to 100 prole working > there, with jillionaire backing, and I only hear about it today. > > > > Any Neuralink hipsters among us? > I would've applied to work there a while ago, if I wasn't focused on CubeCab. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Aug 29 19:40:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:40:48 -0700 Subject: [ExI] four years ago? In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009501d67e3c$4bf40870$e3dc1950$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] four years ago? On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: I am very surprised this escaped my attention for four years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink I have been thinking about this sorta thing most of my life, then it quietly starts up nearby, four years ago, now up to 100 prole working there, with jillionaire backing, and I only hear about it today. Any Neuralink hipsters among us? >?I would've applied to work there a while ago, if I wasn't focused on CubeCab. Ha! That?s a flimsy excuse! I can outdo it easily: I would?ve applied to work there a while ago, but was too busy not being smart enough! Oh wait? let?s see. I was?um? too busy? with? volunteer work! Ja that?s the ticket. School volunteering, scouts, community service, that sorta thing, yep. Ah hell, no one is buying that. I am far too not smart enough to do that kinda work by about pi orders of magnitude. But I can sure cheer for Elon. He has already done so much I admire, if I see him I will totally hug that man (in a totally sideways across the shoulders guy hug of course (but ya gotta love what his company did for this area (he is a well-loved figure around here.))) Adrian, stay on it, me lad. If you can make CubeSat go, it will be wicked cool (and you can toss me down a sack of money from up there on top of your pile.) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 20:00:23 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 13:00:23 -0700 Subject: [ExI] four years ago? In-Reply-To: <009501d67e3c$4bf40870$e3dc1950$@rainier66.com> References: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> <009501d67e3c$4bf40870$e3dc1950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 12:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] four years ago? > > > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I am very surprised this escaped my attention for four years: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink > > I have been thinking about this sorta thing most of my life, then it > quietly starts up nearby, four years ago, now up to 100 prole working > there, with jillionaire backing, and I only hear about it today. > > Any Neuralink hipsters among us? > > > > >?I would've applied to work there a while ago, if I wasn't focused on > CubeCab. > > > > > > Ha! That?s a flimsy excuse! I can outdo it easily: I would?ve applied to > work there a while ago, but was too busy not being smart enough! > > > > Oh wait? let?s see. I was?um? too busy? with? volunteer work! Ja that?s > the ticket. School volunteering, scouts, community service, that sorta > thing, yep. > > > > Ah hell, no one is buying that. I am far too not smart enough to do that > kinda work by about pi orders of magnitude. But I can sure cheer for > Elon. He has already done so much I admire, if I see him I will totally > hug that man (in a totally sideways across the shoulders guy hug of course > (but ya gotta love what his company did for this area (he is a well-loved > figure around here.))) > > > > Adrian, stay on it, me lad. If you can make CubeSat go, it will be wicked > cool (and you can toss me down a sack of money from up there on top of your > pile.) > I believe I have mentioned it before on this list, but the best near-term chance to get CubeCab funded is if we can get enough orders for this mask side venture. Speaking of which - Bill, you've received that pre-production sample mask by now, yes? Could you tell the list if it's working for you? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 21:49:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:49:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] four years ago? In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d67e13$1a2c0820$4e841860$@rainier66.com> <009501d67e3c$4bf40870$e3dc1950$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Speaking of which - Bill, you've received that pre-production sample mask by now, yes? Could you tell the list if it's working for you? adrian I have not been out of the house and have not yet tried the hairdryer treatment to get the mask to fit my narrow face. Will report when I do. bill w On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 3:02 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 12:42 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> > *On Behalf Of *Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] four years ago? >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 7:50 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >> I am very surprised this escaped my attention for four years: >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink >> >> I have been thinking about this sorta thing most of my life, then it >> quietly starts up nearby, four years ago, now up to 100 prole working >> there, with jillionaire backing, and I only hear about it today. >> >> Any Neuralink hipsters among us? >> >> >> >> >?I would've applied to work there a while ago, if I wasn't focused on >> CubeCab. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ha! That?s a flimsy excuse! I can outdo it easily: I would?ve applied >> to work there a while ago, but was too busy not being smart enough! >> >> >> >> Oh wait? let?s see. I was?um? too busy? with? volunteer work! Ja that?s >> the ticket. School volunteering, scouts, community service, that sorta >> thing, yep. >> >> >> >> Ah hell, no one is buying that. I am far too not smart enough to do that >> kinda work by about pi orders of magnitude. But I can sure cheer for >> Elon. He has already done so much I admire, if I see him I will totally >> hug that man (in a totally sideways across the shoulders guy hug of course >> (but ya gotta love what his company did for this area (he is a well-loved >> figure around here.))) >> >> >> >> Adrian, stay on it, me lad. If you can make CubeSat go, it will be >> wicked cool (and you can toss me down a sack of money from up there on top >> of your pile.) >> > > I believe I have mentioned it before on this list, but the best near-term > chance to get CubeCab funded is if we can get enough orders for this mask > side venture. > > Speaking of which - Bill, you've received that pre-production sample mask > by now, yes? Could you tell the list if it's working for you? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 22:13:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:13:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] covid and metformin Message-ID: Wonder drug, I keep telling you. https://reference.medscape.com/viewarticle/935386 bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Sat Aug 29 22:24:15 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:24:15 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Free will was: Everett worlds In-Reply-To: <20200829085132.Horde.PfUVW9MWS3sYLKldxIgq8qq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20200829085132.Horde.PfUVW9MWS3sYLKldxIgq8qq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:53 AM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > What you are saying is classically correct, but at a quantum level > you have a mathematical object i.e. information,* And that information says one observer will see the electron go left for no apparent reason and another observer will see the electron go right for no apparent reason. But in reality the reason is that everything that can happen will happen. *> Everett's theory, there is only ONE monolithic wave function, a > universal one.* > I know, that's why Everett's theory is a favorite among cosmologists, but what I don't know is why you think the quantum Zeno effect Is evidence that this is untrue. > *> All actual computers that have been constructed thus far have > been finite state machines approximating a Turing machines and not > actual Turing machines which are purely abstract mathematical ideals that > have infinite tape i.e. unlimited memory or hard drive space.* That is incorrect. All Turing Machines that you see that are still working on a problem have only used a finite amount of tape, and all Turing Machines that have actually produced an answer have only used a finite amount of tape to produce that answer. Turing Machines have unlimited memory but that's not the same thing as infinite memory, it just means when you start to run out of tape you need to add some more tape if you want any hope of ever getting an answer. If you have to keep adding tape forever then the function is uncomputable, the Busy Beaver function for example is not computable. The first four Busy Beaver numbers have been computed, they are 1, 6, 21, and 107, the fifth is suspected by some of being 47,176,870 but that has not been proven and may never be proven. It has been proven that the 748'th Busy Beaver number, although well-defined and finite, is not computable, if God exists even He doesn't know what the 748'th Busy Beaver number is, He may not even know for sure what the fifth Busy Beaver number is. > * > Incidentally, the fact that an infinite-dimensional Hilbert space > is necessary to describe the Universal Wave Function also implies > the ontological existence of infinity.* Not necessarily, the wave equation is not a physical thing it's just a calculating device, if you want you can forget about Schrodinger's wave equation entirely and use Heisenberg's matrix mechanics instead, you get the same answers although the calculations are usually more cumbersome. We can't detect Schrodinger's wave directly, all we can detect is the square of its absolute value, and even then we only get a probability. > *Why do you think general relativity can't be true at Planck scales?* Nobody thinks General Relativity can be true with the Planck scale, if you try to calculate things at that scale you always get the same answers, infinite energy, infinite density, infinite curvature, infinite momentum ,,,, that's useless. That's why we need a quantum theory of gravity. Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity are our two best physical theories, One does a good job explaining the weak and strong nuclear forces and electromagnetism, and the other does a good job explaining gravity, but they are incompatible, they don't play nice with each other. > > Suppose an atom has a halflife of one second, the universe splits and >> so > do I after one second. In one universe the atom decays and in the >> other it >> > doesn't. In the universe where it didn't decay after another second the >> > universe splits again, and again in one universe it decays but in the >> other >> > it has not, it survived for 2 full seconds. So there will be a version >> of >> > me that observes this atom with a one second half life surviving for 3 >> > seconds, and 4 seconds, and 5 years, and 6 centuries, and you name it. >> >By utilizing a series of increasingly complex and difficult procedures >> in the >> > lab it is possible for the lab to be in the universe that contains >> > observers that see the atom surviving for an arbitrary length of time. >> But >> > the longer the time and the more atoms involved the more difficult the >> > procedures become and is soon ridiculously impractical. > > > * > That is a really good explanation for how the Quantum Zeno Effect > could operate in Everett's multiverse, but it also seems that it allows > researchers to freely choose to be in the universe where the atom takes an > arbritrarily long time to decay with effort.* Yes but the longer the delay is the more difficult it is to set up the experiment. > *> This demonstrates that to a certain extent that we can choose the > Everett branch we find ourselves in. That sounds like free will to me,* The scientists either chose to perform the experiment for a reason in which case they're cuckoo clocks, or they decided to perform the experiment for no reason in which case they are roulette wheels. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 03:00:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 20:00:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] biker bump Message-ID: <00c601d67e79$c332d780$49988680$@rainier66.com> Dang, I am so annoyed at me for not having thought of this idea sooner, when we coulda gotten some useful data. We have long realized the Sturgis bike rally in SD could be a super-spreader event. If we model the expected catch rate by the nearby community college (ignoring for the moment that the students wear masks and the bikers do not) I did some estimates, then estimated the expected biker bump in cases and about now the increase in covid deaths in the state. I was previously annoyed with me for not seeing if we could track that, but let myself off after I learned that the medics dang well have been thinking about this for some time and already had a way to trace their new cases to the rally by asking the patient one subtle, brilliant question: Did you go to the Sturgis rally? OK, they did that. It was silly of me to think they would overlook something so obvious. Now we have new case rates coming in from states, and it occurred to me we are still missing an important number: the percentage of Sturgisers from each state. If we had that number we could see if the event was a super-spreader. Ja? Without that number we still can't really tell. But I blew that, because I realized we could have had a good easy way to get that number: just have volunteers go around and write down the state from the license plates. From a sample of a few thousand bikes, we could have had a good estimate of the fraction from each state. OK so we know the data would be clustery for an understandable reason: bikers have clubs and clubs ride together, arrange to meet at Sturgis and hang together often. So it wouldn't surprise me if a walker down Sturgis streets would see 30 Michigan plates in a row. So we would need enough volunteers to get perhaps 20k bikes, or ideally to make an audio recording into a phone: California California Michigan Iowa Iowa Iowa (and so forth) then transcribe it after the fun is over. Bikes park close together, so a single prole could collect 50 bikes in a minute if she hustles her buns. Oh we sooo coulda done this. Had we done it right, we would be in better shape. But wait. If I thought of this, others probably did too, and there were half a million proles at that rally. OK cool, now if we can get those numbers, we are ready to calculate. Minnesota is reporting about 1000 cases they can trace to the rally. But Minnesota is close to South Dakota and it is a big state where biking is popular, so they woulda supplied a lotta bikers, who were not catching while they were back in the state, which should have slightly reduced their rate during the rally and increased it the week after. I am looking at the data and I don't see it. I will keep watching, but for now I would say Sturgis was a possible spreader but not a super-spreader event. So far. One can anticipate graduate studies and senior projects written about this, which are perhaps really just thinly-disguised but perfectly valid excuses to go to Sturgis. OK then. Stand by for the answers to rumble in. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 20:24:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 13:24:52 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper Message-ID: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Hi Keith, I read over that paper you referenced by Anders and the K. Eric. I have a sinking feeling they might be right. There is a very good chance that planet-spanning tech-enabled civliizations at our level might be something that comes up once in a long while but generally seldom coexists because of its rarity anywhere in our light cone. If so. There really is not paradox at all. We really are all alone out here in the middle of no-where and no-when. Damn. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 21:34:07 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:34:07 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 21:27, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hi Keith, > I read over that paper you referenced by Anders and the K. Eric. > I have a sinking feeling they might be right. > > There is a very good chance that planet-spanning tech-enabled civliizations at our level might be something that comes up once in a long while but generally seldom coexists because of its rarity anywhere in our light cone. If so? There really is not paradox at all. We really are all alone out here in the middle of no-where and no-when. > > spike > _______________________________________________ I wouldn't fret too much about it. That paper is complicated mathematical guesswork. We have no evidence outside of our solar system. We have no facts about what the likely probabilities might be. Multiplying estimated ranges of probabilities is still guesswork. But any other civilisation is indeed likely to be a long way away from us and the light speed limitation will make communication very slow and physical contact would take hundreds of years. We would have to send an AI to represent us. Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) BillK From interzone at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 21:38:25 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:38:25 -0400 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Apologies for having missed it, but can someone please link me to the paper? Thanks! On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:35 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 21:27, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Hi Keith, > > I read over that paper you referenced by Anders and the K. Eric. > > I have a sinking feeling they might be right. > > > > There is a very good chance that planet-spanning tech-enabled > civliizations at our level might be something that comes up once in a long > while but generally seldom coexists because of its rarity anywhere in our > light cone. If so? There really is not paradox at all. We really are all > alone out here in the middle of no-where and no-when. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > I wouldn't fret too much about it. That paper is complicated > mathematical guesswork. > We have no evidence outside of our solar system. We have no facts > about what the likely probabilities might be. > Multiplying estimated ranges of probabilities is still guesswork. > > But any other civilisation is indeed likely to be a long way away from > us and the light speed limitation will make communication very slow > and physical contact would take hundreds of years. We would have to > send an AI to represent us. Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and > let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) > > > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 21:50:08 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 22:50:08 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 22:42, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote: > > Apologies for having missed it, but can someone please link me to the paper? > > Thanks! > BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 21:53:53 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:53:53 -0700 Subject: [ExI] young men paying for some tail Message-ID: <001701d67f18$10acefc0$3206cf40$@rainier66.com> Hey check this. Some viewers may find this disturbing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/child-3-catches-in-kite-string s-and-is-lifted-high-into-air-in-taiwan .but other viewers will get a hell of an idea. Ok this is a three-yr old child accidentally getting entangled in the tail of a kite, and we see what happened but what if. we were to do something like this kinda with a good sturdy bungee shock-corded parachute harness and let paying adult customers ride a scaled up version of this rig intentionally? It could be done over water (I don't know how else to prevent injury or serious death given uncontrolled flight and subsequent high speed collision with turf (ideas?)) Contact with water would hurt, but I would think could be made safe enough, helmet, protective clothing with inherent flotation, etc, and would further establish the manly courage of the customer. So we offer indestructible young adventurers the opportunity (for a modestly outrageous fee) to ride the tail of a kite over the lake for a whippy chaotic total E-ticket ride (sign this paper releasing all liability and proving insanity (good luck Junior!)) Big money to be made in recreational danger, less risky than rock climbing but more intense in its way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 22:00:19 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:00:19 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d67f18$f4f3f660$dedbe320$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ >...I wouldn't fret too much about it. That paper is complicated mathematical guesswork. We have no evidence outside of our solar system. We have no facts about what the likely probabilities might be. Multiplying estimated ranges of probabilities is still guesswork. >...But any other civilisation is indeed likely to be a long way away from us and the light speed limitation will make communication very slow and physical contact would take hundreds of years. We would have to send an AI to represent us. Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) >...BillK _______________________________________________ Hi BillK, contact isn't the thing. The uncertainty in the coefficients of the class of models known as Drake equations is the point of the paper. The probability of even one other tech-enabled civilization in the galaxy derived by a Drake equation spans orders of magnitude. Knowing that, there is little mystery in our being unable to find them. Physical contact is irrelevant: just knowing someone is somewhere out there would have an enormous collective psychological impact on humanity. spike From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 22:03:05 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 23:03:05 +0100 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 22:34, BillK wrote: > > But any other civilisation is indeed likely to be a long way away from > us and the light speed limitation will make communication very slow > and physical contact would take hundreds of years. We would have to > send an AI to represent us. Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and > let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) > > BillK Which leads to the thought - If we are contacted by an alien civilisation, what are the chances that they might be misleading us (lying) just as much as we lie to them? BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Aug 30 22:07:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:07:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) BillK *Asimov wrote a short story from the point of view of an alien empire, which included all known intelligent species. They keep an eye on a planet so that they can issue an invitation to join the galactic association. They get a report that Earth has developed atomic power and they are preparing the invitation. Then later news comes in that we are using nuclear bombs on each other, and so the aliens sadly cancel the invitations. bill w* On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 4:52 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 22:42, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Apologies for having missed it, but can someone please link me to the > paper? > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 22:25:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 15:25:59 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003601d67f1c$8ad27af0$a07770d0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 at 22:34, BillK < pharos at gmail.com> wrote: > > ... Let's hope it doesn't tell the truth and > let them know how terrible humanity is! ;) > > BillK >...Which leads to the thought - If we are contacted by an alien civilisation, what are the chances that they might be misleading us (lying) just as much as we lie to them? BillK _______________________________________________ What? Whaddya mean lying to them BillK? Consider that engraved plate Carl Sagan designed to put aboard Pioneer in 1972: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque That plate isn't a lie, that was the truth! The lie was what we told the librarian. She thought we were studying space science, when really we were checking out that nekkid space-babe. Sure it was a lie, but it was really her fault: she cut out the good pictures in Nat Geo magazines. What were we boys to do? Read the articles? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 14528 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Aug 30 23:30:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:17 -0700 Subject: [ExI] drexler/sandberg paper In-Reply-To: <003601d67f1c$8ad27af0$a07770d0$@rainier66.com> References: <010101d67f0b$9e769e30$db63da90$@rainier66.com> <003601d67f1c$8ad27af0$a07770d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009401d67f25$87666300$96332900$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >. they might be misleading us (lying) just as much as we lie to them? BillK _______________________________________________ >.What? Whaddya mean lying to them BillK? Consider that engraved plate Carl Sagan designed to put aboard Pioneer in 1972: >.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque >.That plate isn't a lie, that was the truth! The lie was what we told the librarian.. What were we boys to do? Read the articles?...spike BillK, it occurred to me that all of that might have been the results of our uptight country. You lads from across the pond might have a more open-minded view of such sensitive matters. I recall clearly when a clear picture of that golden phonograph record was briefly shown on TV. No kidding! ON NATIONAL BROADCAST TV! I was there. We were all: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmarkrathbun.file s.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F01%2Feyes.jpg%3Fw%3D500%26h%3D375 &f=1&nofb=1 A few weeks later at school, we hipsters were whispering "This month's issue, page 87, don't get caught." And there she was in all her refulgent glory. We were nonchalant and subtle of course, but word got around and we were soon standing in line for that issue. The inevitable happened: Miss Crabapple became suspicious, found the article, took her exacto-knife to it, spoiled our fun. G-rated again. But it was worse than that, for unlike her previous censoring activities, this photo was embedded in an actual article that was damned interesting, which we really did wish to read. The other side of that picture contained actual text, we wanted to read, and none of us had the intestinal fortitude to ask if she would at least read the words so we could make sense of the article. She had mercifully sliced out only the space-babe, leaving the rest of the picture, spared as much text as possible. This left us to wonder why it is that an odd asymmetry existed. Why is it that we are here standing in line, we don't see the girls lining up to check out the nekkid space man? Why is that such a one-way thing? We drew the only reasonable conclusion: girls have no sex drive. We already suspected that of course, but we blamed ourselves (rightfully so (well look at us, mercy.)) But here was a man baring everything, and we see no indication he is even a geek, but no girls. So where are they? (Ironically this restated Fermi's question but with a slightly different meaning.) But I digress. History books often comment that in the 1970 time frame space was sexy. Well ja! We had Vina the Orion girl from The Menagerie episode of the original Star Trek. We could totally get past the whole green skin thing, particularly because we didn't actually know at the time she had that unfortunate skin tone: we had only black and white TV in those days, the old hand-crank model, and considered ourselves luck if we had even that. So we always referred to Vina as the gray chick from Star Trek. Gray skin isn't sexy (but we could totally get past that (didn't seem to bother Kirk much (granted nothing seemed to bother Kirk much (he was such a horn-dog (he would mount a Ferengi (if it was closing time at the space bar.))))) About that time, the local rich family got an actual color TV, and he claimed you didn't even need to get out of your chair to change the channel! We all knew that had to be a flaming lie, but he started a rumor that Vina was really green. We assumed he was lying about that too of course, because he was the same one who was telling big breezy tales that The Wizard of Oz was not at all what we had thought either. In any case, it was over 15 years later, two years after I was married, that I acquired my first color TV (which was by that time the only kind a prole could buy.) Come to find out, that little twit was telling the truth all along in all three of his outrageous claims. Add that to the Sagan plate, well of course space was sexy, sheesh. Will and SR, I try to tell young people how it was, and they don't believe me! What's a geezer to do? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 31 04:19:12 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:19:12 -0700 Subject: [ExI] young men paying for some tail In-Reply-To: <001701d67f18$10acefc0$3206cf40$@rainier66.com> References: <001701d67f18$10acefc0$3206cf40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014101d67f4d$e2ee3680$a8caa380$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: young men paying for some tail Hey check this. Some viewers may find this disturbing. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/30/child-3-catches-in-kite-string s-and-is-lifted-high-into-air-in-taiwan .but other viewers will get a hell of an idea. >.Ok this is a three-yr old child accidentally getting entangled in the tail of a kite, and we see what happened but what if. we were to do something like this kinda with a good sturdy bungee shock-corded parachute harness and let paying adult customers ride a scaled up version of this rig intentionally?...spike OK enough silliness about recreational danger and making money off it. (Kidding of course (there is never enough silliness (and never enough making money off of it (for any reason (lack of money is the root of all evil.))))) As I really ponder that whole story with the kid in the kite tail, I begin to think the video or the story is fake. Reasoning: they didn't offer much detail but made it sound like a long kite tail dropped down into the spectators and somehow grabbed up a child. But I think something isn't right. You could drop a rope or string or whatever you want down into a crowd and that rope would never somehow get entangled in the clothing or by any other means onto anyone. Reasoning: if someone drops a rescue line down to a stranded climber, it takes really knowing what one is doing to intentionally tie that rope securely. I am having trouble picturing any believable scenario where a rope or anything could drop down and accidentally entangle a child securely. I think the Guardian has pulled a gag on us. Dang those British jokers. They have been messing with our heads ever since that little 1776 misunderstanding. Great fake video however. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 13:34:33 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 09:34:33 -0400 Subject: [ExI] Cloth masks do protect the wearer Message-ID: https://theconversation.com/cloth-masks-do-protect-the-wearer-breathing-in-less-coronavirus-means-you-get-less-sick-143726 Masks slow the spread of SARS-CoV-2 by reducing how much infected people spray the virus into the environment around them when they cough or talk. Evidence from laboratory experiments, hospitals and whole countries show that masks work, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommends face coverings for the U.S. public. With all this evidence, mask wearing has become the norm in many places. I am an infectious disease doctor and a professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco. As governments and workplaces began to recommend or mandate mask wearing, my colleagues and I noticed an interesting trend. In places where most people wore masks, those who did get infected seemed dramatically less likely to get severely ill compared to places with less mask-wearing. It seems people get less sick if they wear a mask. When you wear a mask ? even a cloth mask ? you typically are exposed to a lower dose of the coronavirus than if you didn?t. Both recent experiments in animal models using coronavirus and nearly a hundred years of viral research show that lower viral doses usually means less severe disease. No mask is perfect, and wearing one might not prevent you from getting infected. But it might be the difference between a case of COVID-19 that sends you to the hospital and a case so mild you don?t even realize you?re infected. Exposure dose determines severity of disease When you breathe in a respiratory virus, it immediately begins hijacking any cells it lands near to turn them into virus production machines. The immune system tries to stop this process to halt the spread of the virus. The amount of virus that you?re exposed to ? called the viral inoculum, or dose ? has a lot to do with how sick you get. If the exposure dose is very high, the immune response can become overwhelmed. Between the virus taking over huge numbers of cells and the immune system?s drastic efforts to contain the infection, a lot of damage is done to the body and a person can become very sick. On the other hand, if the initial dose of the virus is small, the immune system is able to contain the virus with less drastic measures. If this happens, the person experiences fewer symptoms, if any. This concept of viral dose being related to disease severity has been around for almost a century. Many animal studies have shown that the higher the dose of a virus you give an animal, the more sick it becomes. In 2015, researchers tested this concept in human volunteers using a nonlethal flu virus and found the same result. The higher the flu virus dose given to the volunteers, the sicker they became. In July, researchers published a paper showing that viral dose was related to disease severity in hamsters exposed to the coronavirus. Hamsters who were given a higher viral dose got more sick than hamsters given a lower dose. Based on this body of research, it seems very likely that if you are exposed to SARS-CoV-2, the lower the dose, the less sick you will get. So what can a person do to lower the exposure dose? Masks reduce viral dose ? Most infectious disease researchers and epidemiologists believe that the coronavirus is mostly spread by airborne droplets and, to a lesser extent, tiny aerosols. Research shows that both cloth and surgical masks can block the majority of particles that could contain SARS-CoV-2. While no mask is perfect, the goal is not to block all of the virus, but simply reduce the amount that you might inhale. Almost any mask will successfully block some amount. Laboratory experiments have shown that good cloth masks and surgical masks could block at least 80% of viral particles from entering your nose and mouth. Those particles and other contaminants will get trapped in the fibers of the mask, so the CDC recommends washing your cloth mask after each use if possible. The final piece of experimental evidence showing that masks reduce viral dose comes from another hamster experiment. Hamsters were divided into an unmasked group and a masked group by placing surgical mask material over the pipes that brought air into the cages of the masked group. Hamsters infected with the coronavirus were placed in cages next to the masked and unmasked hamsters, and air was pumped from the infected cages into the cages with uninfected hamsters. As expected, the masked hamsters were less likely to get infected with COVID-19. But when some of the masked hamsters did get infected, they had more mild disease than the unmasked hamsters. Masks increase rate of asymptomatic cases In July, the CDC estimated that around 40% of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 are asymptomatic, and a number of other studies have confirmed this number. However, in places where everyone wears masks, the rate of asymptomatic infection seems to be much higher. In an outbreak on an Australian cruise ship called the Greg Mortimer in late March, the passengers were all given surgical masks and the staff were given N95 masks after the first case of COVID-19 was identified. Mask usage was apparently very high, and even though 128 of the 217 passengers and staff eventually tested positive for the coronavirus, 81% of the infected people remained asymptomatic. Further evidence has come from two more recent outbreaks, the first at a seafood processing plant in Oregon and the second at a chicken processing plant in Arkansas. In both places, the workers were provided masks and required to wear them at all times. In the outbreaks from both plants, nearly 95% of infected people were asymptomatic. There is no doubt that universal mask wearing slows the spread of the coronavirus. My colleagues and I believe that evidence from laboratory experiments, case studies like the cruise ship and food processing plant outbreaks and long-known biological principles make a strong case that masks protect the wearer too. The goal of any tool to fight this pandemic is to slow the spread of the virus and save lives. Universal masking will do both. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 31 15:02:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:02:11 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Cloth masks do protect the wearer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <009501d67fa7$b6555540$22ffffc0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Cloth masks do protect the wearer https://theconversation.com/cloth-masks-do-protect-the-wearer-breathing-in-less-coronavirus-means-you-get-less-sick-143726 Masks slow the spread of SARS-CoV-2 by reducing ? Thanks Dave! This makes perfect sense to me: the virus is in the air everywhere. So if we paper masks filter some of them, even just by some unknown amount, that would give the body an additional virus antibody advance warning time to crank up protective measures. I have a cousin and genealogy collaborator from Florida. I was on the phone with her (ZOOM we used! (oh I am so hip (several of us gathered to work on a family tree puzzle (it was like the Brady Bunch intro and exit (or the Hollywood Squares (and they put ME in honored Alice the maid?s position! (do pardon, Will and SR, it?s 60s humor (which leads to a question we kids all had: Mr. Brady had a job, the family had a maid to cook and clean? so what the hell was Mrs. Brady good for? Eye candy?)))))) OK where the heck was I? Oh my cousin from Florida is a nurse, nearing retirement and was working part time but was on deck nearly constantly after the COVID crisis began, an exhausting schedule for her. Her husband is 74. That?s the kind of person she is: duty calls, she answers, and the answer is always I WILL. Love that woman. Long story short: her husband caught Covid. Age 74. Surprised them both: he was feeling lousy, she knew the symptoms well, tested him, positive. She tested negative. She took care of him, much to everyone?s surprise, his was a mild case, couple weeks later he was walking under his own power, week after that, near normal. He looked fine on our Zoom call. That was all in late May. While he was still recovering, she tested positive. They test the nurses every time they come in. She had been getting persistent negatives, but tested positive while she was feeling fine. They thought it might be a false positive, but can?t take a chance, so adios nurse, until she could get three negatives in a row spaced a week apart, hospital rules, strict. Well, In the next week, she felt a little blah but it isn?t always clear really if symptoms are mind, and hers didn?t really match what she was expecting from a lot of experience with sick patients. She was the one who figured out my 7 week misadventure last winter might have been Covid, but it was she who sternly advised me: do not get tested. Our test kits are mixed source (intentionally) and they can?t get the consistent results. Ever since early June, she has been trying to get three negatives in a row, but still hasn?t done it. They are showing elevated antibody levels, which causes her to be disallowed from returning to work. So now she was just on the verge of getting a third green light so she could help her team, who had two others out with the same problem: they caught and recovered, or never really did feel any symptoms, but tested positive, so adios nurse, then they couldn?t get back to their jobs because the test kits, even when taking two of them at the same time? returned inconsistent results. So? her husband caught, had a mild case, went on about his business. She had a very light case with almost no symptoms, now can?t get consistent results with the tests, regardless of which brand or where they were made in the world (they are importing them from everywhere.) With that information, she advised me to not get tested: there?s no point if there is a high risk the test will return false results, which are harmful either way the error goes. So? I didn?t test. I will in November. And even after I get that test, we may still not know what was Mrs. Brady?s actual function in life. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 31 15:49:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 08:49:04 -0700 Subject: [ExI] senior humor Message-ID: <00c401d67fae$412c2ee0$c3848ca0$@rainier66.com> It's what we do: I have a lot of friends in their 70s and 80s (and one cousin now in her 90s, still going) who get frustrated with their computers. So we send this kinda stuff to each other. I know this is a young list and not really for this kind of thing, but do indulge me, this was a particularly good one: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 115444 bytes Desc: not available URL: From interzone at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 17:19:04 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:19:04 -0400 Subject: [ExI] biker bump In-Reply-To: <00c601d67e79$c332d780$49988680$@rainier66.com> References: <00c601d67e79$c332d780$49988680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Current ground zero results: RAPID CITY, S.D. (KOTA) -The City of Sturgis conducted mass COVID testing for its citizens after welcoming hundreds of thousands of visitors for the 80th annual Motorcycle Rally. Now, the city is announcing the results. A total of 650 people took advantage of the free testing, with 26 people testing positive for COVID-19. All of them were asymptomatic at the time of testing. Sturgis city manager Daniel Ainslie says the rate of confirmed cases is lower than what many people anticipated. ?We?re very happy that our mitigation efforts seem to have worked and that there was very little spread into numerous businesses in our count, and there?s very little spread among our employees in whole, which is very good news,? Ainslie says. This mass testing is just one of the measures in place to prevent further spread -- and the City says they will continue to maintain all their current protocols. https://www.kotatv.com/2020/08/29/sturgis-mass-testing-results-announced/ On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 11:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > Dang, I am so annoyed at me for not having thought of this idea sooner, > when we coulda gotten some useful data. > > > > We have long realized the Sturgis bike rally in SD could be a > super-spreader event. If we model the expected catch rate by the nearby > community college (ignoring for the moment that the students wear masks and > the bikers do not) I did some estimates, then estimated the expected biker > bump in cases and about now the increase in covid deaths in the state. > > > > I was previously annoyed with me for not seeing if we could track that, > but let myself off after I learned that the medics dang well have been > thinking about this for some time and already had a way to trace their new > cases to the rally by asking the patient one subtle, brilliant question: > Did you go to the Sturgis rally? > > > > OK, they did that. It was silly of me to think they would overlook > something so obvious. Now we have new case rates coming in from states, > and it occurred to me we are still missing an important number: the > percentage of Sturgisers from each state. If we had that number we could > see if the event was a super-spreader. Ja? > > > > Without that number we still can?t really tell. > > > > But I blew that, because I realized we could have had a good easy way to > get that number: just have volunteers go around and write down the state > from the license plates. From a sample of a few thousand bikes, we could > have had a good estimate of the fraction from each state. > > > > OK so we know the data would be clustery for an understandable reason: > bikers have clubs and clubs ride together, arrange to meet at Sturgis and > hang together often. So it wouldn?t surprise me if a walker down Sturgis > streets would see 30 Michigan plates in a row. So we would need enough > volunteers to get perhaps 20k bikes, or ideally to make an audio recording > into a phone: California California Michigan Iowa Iowa Iowa (and so forth) > then transcribe it after the fun is over. > > > > Bikes park close together, so a single prole could collect 50 bikes in a > minute if she hustles her buns. > > > > Oh we sooo coulda done this. Had we done it right, we would be in better > shape. > > > > But wait. If I thought of this, others probably did too, and there were > half a million proles at that rally. OK cool, now if we can get those > numbers, we are ready to calculate. > > > > Minnesota is reporting about 1000 cases they can trace to the rally. But > Minnesota is close to South Dakota and it is a big state where biking is > popular, so they woulda supplied a lotta bikers, who were not catching > while they were back in the state, which should have slightly reduced their > rate during the rally and increased it the week after. I am looking at the > data and I don?t see it. > > > > I will keep watching, but for now I would say Sturgis was a possible > spreader but not a super-spreader event. So far. > > > > One can anticipate graduate studies and senior projects written about > this, which are perhaps really just thinly-disguised but perfectly valid > excuses to go to Sturgis. > > > > OK then. Stand by for the answers to rumble in. > > > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 31 17:38:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 10:38:43 -0700 Subject: [ExI] biker bump In-Reply-To: References: <00c601d67e79$c332d780$49988680$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004501d67fbd$93051a60$b90f4f20$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] biker bump Current ground zero results: RAPID CITY, S.D. (KOTA) -The City of Sturgis conducted mass COVID testing for its citizens? announcing the results. ? Sturgis city manager Daniel Ainslie says the rate of confirmed cases is lower than what many people anticipated. ?We?re very happy that our mitigation efforts seem to have worked and that there was very little spread into numerous businesses in our count, and there?s very little spread among our employees in whole, which is very good news,? Ainslie says. This mass testing is just one of the measures in place to prevent further spread -- and the City says they will continue to maintain all their current protocols. https://www.kotatv.com/2020/08/29/sturgis-mass-testing-results-announced/ Cool thanks Dylan. This is a particularly interesting case. The testing was done not during the rally but after the fact and applied to the people who live in Sturgis: gave them free testing. Stugis is a small town swamped by bikers the first week of August every year, so small town, half a million proles rumble in, no point in protesting it or trying to stop them, because that little town is famous because of that annual rally. That little town makes its living off of that one biker week, serving food, dogs and burgers, selling trinkets, T-shirts, anything they can think of, selling beer from an ice cream cart (calling out, Popsicles! Ice cream cones! Buuuudweiser! (sure it is illegal (but this is STURGIS (who?s gonna stop em, the city cops?))))) Sturgis makes enough money in one week to buy their own Harley. They struggle by until next summer. OK, so the case load from Sturgis is lower than anticipated, and the anticipated rate was derived from? the local community college! Think about that. I will stop there and invite commentary. I follow Sturgis. Those are some of my friends up there. I was one who suggested calling off our club rally this year, live to ride another day. I cancelled. They went. No one got sick that we know of. Our rally was two weeks after the main event, so we aren?t out of the woods yet. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 20:24:49 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:24:49 -0500 Subject: [ExI] corruption Message-ID: This is not about politics per se. It's about people. Is it possible to have a government of any size without corruption? Consider a family: a government of sorts - who gets to say what, do what, must obey whom, who are the rules for, what happens if they get broken and all that. So having kids is a government in miniature. Recalling your own childhood, how often did you lie, cheat, steal, hide things from your governors (parents, kin, whoever)? Can you imagine anyone saying 'never'? Ha! How about if we include your antigovernment thoughts? So our beginning experience with government is how to get around it and do what you want, keeping in mind that the people you are trying to fool are living with you. But you find that they are easy to fool in many cases, which just sends you back to the drawing board as to what will work when the previous effort failed. How many people say that they would cheat on their taxes if they know they couldn't be caught? And many who deny it would do it. Now imagine that there are oceans full of money. "Me, me, I want some of that." Short of bank robbery, the best source is tax money. Who gets to deal with that: politicians. We don't give the fox an open door, but we do give the fox a key to it when we elect them. Will the elected try to shovel some of that ocean into the pockets of their relatives and friends, not to say themselves? What percentage do you think? If fairly high, then we think alike. What kind of government can stop this? Probably none. So let's find out how to elect people we can trust. If they had a totally pure record of honesty etc., can we trust them? I have a lot more thoughts but want to wait and see what replies I get. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Aug 31 20:49:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:49:37 -0700 Subject: [ExI] corruption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010601d67fd8$3e4ff7e0$baefe7a0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] corruption >?This is not about politics per se. It's about people. Is it possible to have a government of any size without corruption?... >?So let's find out how to elect people we can trust. If they had a totally pure record of honesty etc., can we trust them? bill w I agree. Honesty is defined by the beholder. Legality is defined by law. I choose to use legal definitions only for this purpose, otherwise we still don?t know who is who. Your question leads to an important aspect of our now: transparency. Transparency is the enemy of corruption. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 21:03:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:03:10 -0500 Subject: [ExI] corruption In-Reply-To: <010601d67fd8$3e4ff7e0$baefe7a0$@rainier66.com> References: <010601d67fd8$3e4ff7e0$baefe7a0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Transparency - yes, and a reply I forgot to make: one study done by ??? showed that a lot of stuff not at all relating to national security was made Top Secret by the Bush administration. How do we stop them from doing that? And how do we stop them from making laws leaving back doors and loopholes? Or just quid pro quo: "It's pork." "No. it's for the people of my district (including my brother, wife, sons, etc.") "I voted for your museum of untied knots, didn't I?" bill w On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 3:56 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] corruption > > > > >?This is not about politics per se. It's about people. Is it possible > to have a government of any size without corruption?... > > >?So let's find out how to elect people we can trust. If they had a > totally pure record of honesty etc., can we trust them? bill w > > > > > > > > I agree. Honesty is defined by the beholder. Legality is defined by > law. I choose to use legal definitions only for this purpose, otherwise we > still don?t know who is who. > > > > Your question leads to an important aspect of our now: transparency. > Transparency is the enemy of corruption. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 22:32:03 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:32:03 -0400 Subject: [ExI] corruption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > If fairly high, then we think alike. What kind of government can stop > this? Probably none. > The only way to limit corruption is to limit power. The Constitution tried and failed to do that. > So let's find out how to elect people we can trust. If they had a > totally pure record of honesty etc., can we trust them? > No. Even if they're pure as the driven snow, the time will come that the temptation becomes too great. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Aug 31 22:57:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:57:19 -0500 Subject: [ExI] corruption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Even if they're pure as the driven snow, the time will come that the temptation becomes too great. Dave *And I agree. Since evolution is far too slow and altering our own genes is likewise, I think that what has to happen to get a functional, honest government is to develop AI to the point where it can run things (they do just fine in my sci fi novels!). Quis ipsos custodes custodiet, you say? Who will guard the guardians (which in this case will be the programmers)? That's one I cannot answer. * *Which taxes to lower/raise? Which street to pave next? Who gets on the committee to change the flag? All done by a neutral AI. Comments?* bill w On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 5:34 PM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 4:27 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> If fairly high, then we think alike. What kind of government can stop >> this? Probably none. >> > > The only way to limit corruption is to limit power. The Constitution tried > and failed to do that. > > >> So let's find out how to elect people we can trust. If they had a >> totally pure record of honesty etc., can we trust them? >> > > No. Even if they're pure as the driven snow, the time will come that the > temptation becomes too great. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: