[ExI] Who has a vote that counts?

Sat Aug 1 21:51:37 UTC 2020

Thanks, Dylan.  I see that you are an Epicurean, probably not the only
other one besides myself.  I have noticed that econ is becoming a
behavioral science (and has a Nobel Prize winner if you count Kahneman; we
really need a Nobel category for psychology and all the behavioral
sciences.) Good for them even if they are treading on our toes.  Same for
philosophy.  Law scholars are doing some behavioral research as well,
mostly with juries.

What to do in a downturn - try to maintain a positive attitude.  Dwelling
on the negatives does nothing but make the wrong transmitters flow.  That
quote frp, Epictetus reminds me of the one that ends with 'and the wisdom
to know the difference'.     bill w

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 3:37 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I really appreciate this reply, and it makes me respect at least a subset
> of psychology more than I did.   If it makes you feel any better, Bill,
> economics suffers from the same issues that much of psychology does, and it
> truly is a dismal "science."
>
> But back to anecdotes, and casting wide nets...  I, OTOH, am more hopeful
> about the youth of America, although I'm also guilty of taking easy pot
> shots based on what is amplified by media, and social media in particular.
>
> The Millenials (I can't speak as much to the Gen Zers) I have come in
> contact with generally have their heads screwed on straight, have gone to
> school for degrees that will result in actual jobs and decent income, or
> have found a trade that pays.
>
> I do find it sad to hear all of the excuses as to why this current
> generation has it the hardest and has no hope.  Giving up in life is not an
> option that frequently yields a good outcome.   Life itself owes us
> nothing, we can only hope through hard work, happenstance, and family/our
> broader social network that we make a decent go of it.   Every generation
> can find a million reasons for why they have it so bad, and why life is
> unfair, but the only alternative to giving up is carrying on.   The wheel
> moves up and down, and the only guarantee you have from life is that as the
> Buddha said, it is suffering.   Once you accept that, everything else is
> gravy.
>
> “The chief task in life is simply this: to identify and separate matters
> so that I can say clearly to myself which are externals not under my
> control, and which have to do with the choices I actually control. Where
> then do I look for good and evil? Not to uncontrollable externals, but
> within myself to the choices that are my own…” – Epictetus
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 9:53 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I did not bother to count the number of variables that have been
>> mentioned as causes of this and that.  But there are quite a few.  And they
>> interact all over the place.
>>
>> But here's my thing:  I have physics envy.  I got out of clinical because
>> it wasn't very scientific at all.  My fields of social and personality do
>> quite a bit better, but nowhere near the standards of physics and
>> chemistry.  So I envy them.
>>
>> Suppose you got a group of young people together and asked them about the
>> issues we are discussing here.  Society, parents, jobs, moving, etc. etc.
>> Suppose they came to some agreed-upon conclusions.  Would I regard any of
>> them as true?  No way.  What you have is a bunch of individual opinions
>> based on who knows what.  Anecdotal data - the very worst kind.  Sometimes
>> not only worthless but misleading.
>>
>> Let's take helicopter parents.  I have to wonder:  just how many
>> parents,from the top to the bottom of society, know what this is or would
>> practice it if they did?  I have no idea.  Do you? Suppose that is
>> wide-spread and correlates with certain variables you think are responsible
>> for the ills and woes of younger people nowadays.  That's not causation.
>> Not even close.
>>
>> Each one of us, like the blind men and elephant, can only testify to what
>> they are experiencing.
>>
>> You  mention self-sufficient adults.  You are talking about adults now
>> who are many thousands of dollars in debt to Visa et al and mostly have no
>> retirement program at all - only SS.  Your parents are not providing role
>> models for effective and mature adults, because they themselves are not.
>>
>> So I am not going to try to address each variable you mention.  If you
>> put them all in a computer and try to sort them out you might find some
>> interesting things. But to sort out variables from economics, psychology,
>> sociology, politics, finance, child-raising, culture idols, etc. in your
>> head - bah humbug.
>>
>> No, I don't want anyone to research these things.  That's for a huge team
>> of experimenters, who in the end might have to rely on such wonderfully
>> scientific data as polling.
>>
>> I find all the comments interesting, but have not added to my store of
>> real, firm knowledge.
>>
>> bill w
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 1:54 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> By “the natural order of thing”, I mean, not conducive to creating
>>> responsible, “self-sufficent” adults.
>>>
>>> For example, before we started dating, my boyfriend was constantly
>>> borrowing and repaying the same $10 with his Grandma. I absolutely find
>>> that unacceptable and childish and just don’t tolerate it from him. He now
>>> has a savings account, for the first time in his life. Young people just do
>>> NOT save. Because there are so many factors that enable them to not save:
>>> loans, credit cards, social gratification.
>>>
>>> They (my boyfriend and his brother) used to pay rent on the 3rd so his
>>> brother could get one more check. No. You make enough money, pay it on the
>>> first like you’re supposed to!
>>>
>>> It’s not a thing that’s “wrong” with young people. But it’s going to
>>> become a severe obstacle when their parents eventually pass away.
>>>
>>> And I’m not talking about money specifically, but rather the mindset
>>> that money represents. For example people who move out and can’t boil
>>> pasta, do their own laundry, make a grocery list, deposit a check.
>>>
>>> Eventually the people who do that for “you” now are going to be gone. Of
>>> course you can google it or watch a YouTube video, but it’s absolutely not
>>> the same as far as poise goes.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 5:46 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:49 PM, SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> To clarify I do blame extended adolescence on “society” because it
>>> requires a legal and social framework and constant enabling. It is not the
>>> natural order of things.
>>>
>>> SR Ballard
>>>
>>>
>>> What is the ‘natural order of things’? The way I view it is there’s
>>> always this attitude that something is wrong with the young.
>>>
>>> Forgive the expression, but don’t fall prey to the Boomer mindset. (It’s
>>> strange because I’m sure when Boomers were young, they were doing stuff
>>> their elders thought would end civilization if not the species. You know,
>>> stuff like having premarital sex and smoking pot.;)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>    Sample my Kindle books at:
>>>
>>> http://author.to/DanUst
>>>
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