From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 15:33:58 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 15:33:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope now collapsed completely. Message-ID: The Arecibo radio telescope's massive hanging platform has collapsed By Meghan Bartels 1 Dec 2020 The hanging structure crashed through Arecibo's radio dish after major cable failures. Quote: After two cable failures in the span of four months, Puerto Rico's most venerable astronomy facility, the Arecibo radio telescope, has collapsed in an uncontrolled structural failure. The U.S. National Science Foundation (NSF), which owns the site, decided in November to proceed with decommissioning the telescope in response to the damage, which engineers deemed too severe to stabilize without risking lives. But the NSF needed time to come up with a plan for how to safely demolish the telescope in a controlled manner. Instead, gravity did the job this morning (Dec. 1) at about 8 a.m. local time, according to reports from the area. ---------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 1 15:50:08 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 07:50:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope now collapsed completely. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001001d6c7f9$a58c0750$f0a415f0$@rainier66.com> >> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope now collapsed completely. >...The Arecibo radio telescope's massive hanging platform has collapsed By Meghan Bartels 1 Dec 2020 The hanging structure crashed through Arecibo's radio dish after major cable failures. ---------------------- BillK _______________________________________________ Damn. Fortunately since the Arecibo dish was built, we have figured out how to do long baseline interferometry, which makes a group of smaller dishes act as a much bigger reflector. spike From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 1 15:57:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 07:57:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] wheres the beef Message-ID: <001101d6c7fa$aa02f400$fe08dc00$@rainier66.com> This graphic from XKCD tells the story better than words: https://xkcd.com/1338/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 92542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 16:32:16 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 16:32:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] wheres the beef In-Reply-To: <001101d6c7fa$aa02f400$fe08dc00$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d6c7fa$aa02f400$fe08dc00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 16:00, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > This graphic from XKCD tells the story better than words: > https://xkcd.com/1338/ > > spike > _______________________________________________ And insects outweigh humans by 17 times! That's why they want us to start eating insects. :( Quote: All life on Earth, in one staggering chart Scientists estimated the mass of all life. It?s mind boggling. By Brian Resnick and Javier Zarracina Updated Aug 15, 2018 By weight, human beings are insignificant. ------------------- BillK From divya at nakamoto.com Tue Dec 1 02:21:54 2020 From: divya at nakamoto.com (Divya Cohen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 18:21:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Absolutely massive step forward. I won't be surprised if this work gets a Nobel Prize one day. Seems to be a similar breakthrough as CRISPR. On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:45 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Wow this seems great! > > https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphafold-a-solution-to-a-50-year-old-grand-challenge-in-biology > > On 2020. Nov 30., Mon at 18:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> *https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures >> * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Artificial intelligence (AI) has solved one of biology?s grand >> challenges: predicting how proteins curl up from a linear chain of amino >> acids into 3D shapes that allow them to carry out life?s tasks. Today, >> leading structural biologists and organizers of a biennial protein-folding >> competition announced the achievement by researchers at DeepMind, a >> U.K.-based AI company. They say the DeepMind method will have far-reaching >> effects, among them dramatically speeding the creation of new >> medications.?What the DeepMind team has managed to achieve is fantastic and >> will change the future of structural biology and protein research,? says >> Janet Thornton, director emeritus of the European Bioinformatics Institute. >> ?This is a 50-year-old problem,? adds John Moult, a structural biologist at >> the University of Maryland, Shady Grove, and co-founder of the competition, >> Critical Assessment of Protein Structure Prediction (CASP). ?I never >> thought I?d see this in my lifetime.?The human body uses tens of thousands >> of different proteins, each a string of dozens to many hundreds of amino >> acids. The order of those amino acids dictates how the myriad pushes and >> pulls between them give rise to proteins? complex 3D shapes, which, in >> turn, determine how they function. Knowing those shapes helps researchers >> devise drugs that can lodge in proteins? pockets and crevices. And being >> able to synthesize proteins with a desired structure could speed the >> development of enzymes that make biofuels and degrade waste plastic.For >> decades, researchers deciphered proteins? 3D structures using experimental >> techniques such as x-ray crystallography or cryo?electron microscopy >> (cryo-EM). But such methods can take months or years and don?t always work. >> Structures have been solved for only about 170,000 of the more than 200 >> million proteins discovered across life forms.In the 1960s, researchers >> realized if they could work out all individual interactions within a >> protein?s sequence, they could predict its 3D shape. With hundreds of amino >> acids per protein and numerous ways each pair of amino acids can interact, >> however, the number of possible structures per sequence was astronomical. >> Computational scientists jumped on the problem, but progress was slow.In >> 1994, Moult and colleagues launched CASP, which takes place every 2 years. >> Entrants get amino acid sequences for about 100 proteins whose structures >> are not known. Some groups compute a structure for each sequence, while >> other groups determine it experimentally. The organizers then compare the >> computational predictions with the lab results and give the predictions a >> global distance test (GDT) score. Scores above 90 on the zero to 100 scale >> are considered on par with experimental methods, Moult says.Even in 1994, >> predicted structures for small, simple proteins could match experimental >> results. But for larger, challenging proteins, computations? GDT scores >> were about 20, ?a complete catastrophe,? says Andrei Lupas, a CASP judge >> and evolutionary biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Developmental >> Biology. By 2016, competing groups had reached scores of about 40 for the >> hardest proteins, mostly by drawing insights from known structures of >> proteins that were closely related to the CASP targets.When DeepMind first >> competed in 2018, its algorithm, called AlphaFold, relied on this >> comparative strategy. But AlphaFold also incorporated a computational >> approach called deep learning, in which the software is trained on vast >> data troves?in this case, the sequences, structures, and known proteins?and >> learns to spot patterns. DeepMind won handily, beating the competition by >> an average of 15% on each structure, and winning GDT scores of up to about >> 60 for the hardest targets.But the predictions were still too coarse to be >> useful, says John Jumper, who heads AlphaFold?s development at DeepMind. >> ?We knew how far we were from biological relevance.? To do better, Jumper >> and his colleagues combined deep learning with a ?tension algorithm? that >> mimics the way a person might assemble a jigsaw puzzle: first connecting >> pieces in small clumps?in this case clusters of amino acids?and then >> searching for ways to join the clumps in a larger whole. Working on a >> modest, 128-processor computer network, they trained the algorithm on all >> 170,000 or so known protein structures.And it worked. Across target >> proteins in this year?s CASP, AlphaFold achieved a median GDT score of >> 92.4. For the most challenging proteins, AlphaFold scored a median of 87, >> 25 points above the next best predictions. It even excelled at solving >> structures of proteins that sit wedged in cell membranes, which are central >> to many human diseases but notoriously difficult to solve with x-ray >> crystallography. Venki Ramakrishnan, a structural biologist at the Medical >> Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology, calls the result ?a >> stunning advance on the protein folding problem.?All of the groups in this >> year?s competition improved, Moult says. But with AlphaFold, Lupas says, >> ?The game has changed.? The organizers even worried DeepMind may have been >> cheating somehow. So Lupas set a special challenge: a membrane protein from >> a species of archaea, an ancient group of microbes. For 10 years, his >> research team tried every trick in the book to get an x-ray crystal >> structure of the protein. ?We couldn?t solve it.?But AlphaFold had no >> trouble. It returned a detailed image of a three-part protein with two long >> helical arms in the middle. The model enabled Lupas and his colleagues to >> make sense of their x-ray data; within half an hour, they had fit their >> experimental results to AlphaFold?s predicted structure. ?It?s almost >> perfect,? Lupas says. ?They could not possibly have cheated on this. I >> don?t know how they do it.?As a condition of entering CASP, DeepMind?like >> all groups?agreed to reveal sufficient details about its method for other >> groups to re-create it. That will be a boon for experimentalists, who will >> be able to use accurate structure predictions to make sense of opaque x-ray >> and cryo-EM data. It could also enable drug designers to quickly work out >> the structure of every protein in new and dangerous pathogens like >> SARS-CoV-2, a key step in the hunt for molecules to block them, Moult >> says.Still, AlphaFold doesn?t do everything well yet. In the contest, it >> faltered noticeably on one protein, an amalgam of 52 small repeating >> segments, which distort each others? positions as they assemble. Jumper >> says the team now wants to train AlphaFold to solve such structures, as >> well as those of complexes of proteins that work together to carry out key >> functions in the cell.Even though one grand challenge has fallen, others >> will undoubtedly emerge. ?This isn?t the end of something,? Thornton says. >> ?It?s the beginning of many new things.?* >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Tue Dec 1 20:33:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 20:33:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is fantastic news. I've been waiting for this for most of my life. I reckon it will be even more significant than the ability to decode entire genomes. -- Ben Zaiboc From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 20:39:05 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 14:39:05 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever done? bill w On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 2:36 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > This is fantastic news. I've been waiting for this for most of my life. > > I reckon it will be even more significant than the ability to decode > entire genomes. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 1 21:09:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:09:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001301d6c826$409e58c0$c1db0a40$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures >?Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever done? bill w Entirely possible that it is the most significant advance AI has made with respect to how it will impact humanity?s future. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tech101 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 00:10:24 2020 From: tech101 at gmail.com (Adam A. Ford) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 11:10:24 +1100 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree, this is extremely exciting - cognisant of my excitement, is it fair to say that protein folding has been solved? Kind regards, Adam A. Ford AU Mobile +61 421 979977 Chair - Science, Technology & the Future - (Meetup / Facebook / YouTube / Instagram / Twitter ) - Convener, H+ Australia | Singularity Summit Australia "A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move toward higher levels." - Albert Einstein, May 1946) On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 04:10, Divya Cohen via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Absolutely massive step forward. I won't be surprised if this work gets a > Nobel Prize one day. Seems to be a similar breakthrough as CRISPR. > > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:45 AM Giulio Prisco via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Wow this seems great! >> >> https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphafold-a-solution-to-a-50-year-old-grand-challenge-in-biology >> >> On 2020. Nov 30., Mon at 18:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> *https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Artificial intelligence (AI) has solved one of biology?s grand >>> challenges: predicting how proteins curl up from a linear chain of amino >>> acids into 3D shapes that allow them to carry out life?s tasks. Today, >>> leading structural biologists and organizers of a biennial protein-folding >>> competition announced the achievement by researchers at DeepMind, a >>> U.K.-based AI company. They say the DeepMind method will have far-reaching >>> effects, among them dramatically speeding the creation of new >>> medications.?What the DeepMind team has managed to achieve is fantastic and >>> will change the future of structural biology and protein research,? says >>> Janet Thornton, director emeritus of the European Bioinformatics Institute. >>> ?This is a 50-year-old problem,? adds John Moult, a structural biologist at >>> the University of Maryland, Shady Grove, and co-founder of the competition, >>> Critical Assessment of Protein Structure Prediction (CASP). ?I never >>> thought I?d see this in my lifetime.?The human body uses tens of thousands >>> of different proteins, each a string of dozens to many hundreds of amino >>> acids. The order of those amino acids dictates how the myriad pushes and >>> pulls between them give rise to proteins? complex 3D shapes, which, in >>> turn, determine how they function. Knowing those shapes helps researchers >>> devise drugs that can lodge in proteins? pockets and crevices. And being >>> able to synthesize proteins with a desired structure could speed the >>> development of enzymes that make biofuels and degrade waste plastic.For >>> decades, researchers deciphered proteins? 3D structures using experimental >>> techniques such as x-ray crystallography or cryo?electron microscopy >>> (cryo-EM). But such methods can take months or years and don?t always work. >>> Structures have been solved for only about 170,000 of the more than 200 >>> million proteins discovered across life forms.In the 1960s, researchers >>> realized if they could work out all individual interactions within a >>> protein?s sequence, they could predict its 3D shape. With hundreds of amino >>> acids per protein and numerous ways each pair of amino acids can interact, >>> however, the number of possible structures per sequence was astronomical. >>> Computational scientists jumped on the problem, but progress was slow.In >>> 1994, Moult and colleagues launched CASP, which takes place every 2 years. >>> Entrants get amino acid sequences for about 100 proteins whose structures >>> are not known. Some groups compute a structure for each sequence, while >>> other groups determine it experimentally. The organizers then compare the >>> computational predictions with the lab results and give the predictions a >>> global distance test (GDT) score. Scores above 90 on the zero to 100 scale >>> are considered on par with experimental methods, Moult says.Even in 1994, >>> predicted structures for small, simple proteins could match experimental >>> results. But for larger, challenging proteins, computations? GDT scores >>> were about 20, ?a complete catastrophe,? says Andrei Lupas, a CASP judge >>> and evolutionary biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Developmental >>> Biology. By 2016, competing groups had reached scores of about 40 for the >>> hardest proteins, mostly by drawing insights from known structures of >>> proteins that were closely related to the CASP targets.When DeepMind first >>> competed in 2018, its algorithm, called AlphaFold, relied on this >>> comparative strategy. But AlphaFold also incorporated a computational >>> approach called deep learning, in which the software is trained on vast >>> data troves?in this case, the sequences, structures, and known proteins?and >>> learns to spot patterns. DeepMind won handily, beating the competition by >>> an average of 15% on each structure, and winning GDT scores of up to about >>> 60 for the hardest targets.But the predictions were still too coarse to be >>> useful, says John Jumper, who heads AlphaFold?s development at DeepMind. >>> ?We knew how far we were from biological relevance.? To do better, Jumper >>> and his colleagues combined deep learning with a ?tension algorithm? that >>> mimics the way a person might assemble a jigsaw puzzle: first connecting >>> pieces in small clumps?in this case clusters of amino acids?and then >>> searching for ways to join the clumps in a larger whole. Working on a >>> modest, 128-processor computer network, they trained the algorithm on all >>> 170,000 or so known protein structures.And it worked. Across target >>> proteins in this year?s CASP, AlphaFold achieved a median GDT score of >>> 92.4. For the most challenging proteins, AlphaFold scored a median of 87, >>> 25 points above the next best predictions. It even excelled at solving >>> structures of proteins that sit wedged in cell membranes, which are central >>> to many human diseases but notoriously difficult to solve with x-ray >>> crystallography. Venki Ramakrishnan, a structural biologist at the Medical >>> Research Council Laboratory of Molecular Biology, calls the result ?a >>> stunning advance on the protein folding problem.?All of the groups in this >>> year?s competition improved, Moult says. But with AlphaFold, Lupas says, >>> ?The game has changed.? The organizers even worried DeepMind may have been >>> cheating somehow. So Lupas set a special challenge: a membrane protein from >>> a species of archaea, an ancient group of microbes. For 10 years, his >>> research team tried every trick in the book to get an x-ray crystal >>> structure of the protein. ?We couldn?t solve it.?But AlphaFold had no >>> trouble. It returned a detailed image of a three-part protein with two long >>> helical arms in the middle. The model enabled Lupas and his colleagues to >>> make sense of their x-ray data; within half an hour, they had fit their >>> experimental results to AlphaFold?s predicted structure. ?It?s almost >>> perfect,? Lupas says. ?They could not possibly have cheated on this. I >>> don?t know how they do it.?As a condition of entering CASP, DeepMind?like >>> all groups?agreed to reveal sufficient details about its method for other >>> groups to re-create it. That will be a boon for experimentalists, who will >>> be able to use accurate structure predictions to make sense of opaque x-ray >>> and cryo-EM data. It could also enable drug designers to quickly work out >>> the structure of every protein in new and dangerous pathogens like >>> SARS-CoV-2, a key step in the hunt for molecules to block them, Moult >>> says.Still, AlphaFold doesn?t do everything well yet. In the contest, it >>> faltered noticeably on one protein, an amalgam of 52 small repeating >>> segments, which distort each others? positions as they assemble. Jumper >>> says the team now wants to train AlphaFold to solve such structures, as >>> well as those of complexes of proteins that work together to carry out key >>> functions in the cell.Even though one grand challenge has fallen, others >>> will undoubtedly emerge. ?This isn?t the end of something,? Thornton says. >>> ?It?s the beginning of many new things.?* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 2 01:10:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 17:10:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701d6c847$f48d6a30$dda83e90$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adam A. Ford via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures I agree, this is extremely exciting - cognisant of my excitement, is it fair to say that protein folding has been solved? Kind regards, Adam A. Ford For the last several years, one of the events in the local high school Science Olympiad has been is to figure out how to create a shape using the known rules of protein folding. From what I understand, this is saying that now the champion of that sport is software. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 02:19:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 20:19:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: <002701d6c847$f48d6a30$dda83e90$@rainier66.com> References: <002701d6c847$f48d6a30$dda83e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Protein folding - is this an example of a problem that a human being simply could not solve without computers? Or without AI? bill w On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 7:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adam A. Ford via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving > protein structures > > > > I agree, this is extremely exciting - cognisant of my excitement, is it > fair to say that protein folding has been solved? > > > > Kind regards, > > Adam A. Ford > > > > > > > > For the last several years, one of the events in the local high school > Science Olympiad has been is to figure out how to create a shape using the > known rules of protein folding. From what I understand, this is saying > that now the champion of that sport is software. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 02:36:10 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 18:36:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: <002701d6c847$f48d6a30$dda83e90$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: It's an example of a problem that lots of highly-trained high-resources humans were unable to solve prior to applying AI. That's not 100% proof that they could never have solved it on their own, but it may be as close as will ever be gotten now that the problem has been (mostly) solved. On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 6:21 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Protein folding - is this an example of a problem that a human being > simply could not solve without computers? Or without AI? bill w > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 7:12 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> *?*> *On Behalf Of *Adam A. Ford via extropy-chat >> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving >> protein structures >> >> >> >> I agree, this is extremely exciting - cognisant of my excitement, is it >> fair to say that protein folding has been solved? >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Adam A. Ford >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> For the last several years, one of the events in the local high school >> Science Olympiad has been is to figure out how to create a shape using the >> known rules of protein folding. From what I understand, this is saying >> that now the champion of that sport is software. >> >> >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Dec 2 03:35:18 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2020 19:35:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures Message-ID: <20201201193518.Horde.oqRCfI_RbwEgDD7nhsEtZMq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Giulio Prisco: > Wow this seems great! > https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphafold-a-solution-to-a-50-year-old-grand-challenge-in-biology > > On 2020. Nov 30., Mon at 18:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> *https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures >> * Yes, Guilio. We have designed a scalable machine algorithm that will someday be capable of designing us. Designer proteins are right around the corner. This is a huge step toward nanosanta and grey goo both. And certainly worthy of a Nobel prize but in chemistry or possibly medicine depending on how long they wait before they award it. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 14:42:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 08:42:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures In-Reply-To: <20201201193518.Horde.oqRCfI_RbwEgDD7nhsEtZMq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201201193518.Horde.oqRCfI_RbwEgDD7nhsEtZMq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Who will get the Nobel? The AI? The programmers? bill w On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:37 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Giulio Prisco: > > > Wow this seems great! > > > https://deepmind.com/blog/article/alphafold-a-solution-to-a-50-year-old-grand-challenge-in-biology > > > > On 2020. Nov 30., Mon at 18:55, Dave Sill via extropy-chat < > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> * > https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures > >> < > https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/game-has-changed-ai-triumphs-solving-protein-structures > >* > > Yes, Guilio. We have designed a scalable machine algorithm that will > someday be capable of designing us. Designer proteins are right around > the corner. This is a huge step toward nanosanta and grey goo both. > And certainly worthy of a Nobel prize but in chemistry or possibly > medicine depending on how long they wait before they award it. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 2 15:15:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 07:15:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures In-Reply-To: References: <20201201193518.Horde.oqRCfI_RbwEgDD7nhsEtZMq@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <001501d6c8bd$e76cce10$b6466a30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving protein structures Who will get the Nobel? The AI? The programmers? bill w There ya go, the Turing test: if the programmers get the Nobel but their software claims that he deserves the prize instead, then we know AI is now I. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Wed Dec 2 19:27:17 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 19:27:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6926be13-ee0e-ff15-a32f-6202427326dc@zaiboc.net> On 02/12/2020 14:43, bill w asked: > Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever?done?? bill w So far, yes. But it won't be the best thing it ever does. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 20:38:06 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 14:38:06 -0600 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: <6926be13-ee0e-ff15-a32f-6202427326dc@zaiboc.net> References: <6926be13-ee0e-ff15-a32f-6202427326dc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Suppose the increasing ability of AI is like a classic curve: at first positively accelerated, then negative, slowing down gradually. Just where on the curve is it now? Sure, it's a wild guess. If that curve is true, then we can expect more breakthroughs in the next 20 years than we have had in the last 20. The Nobel Prize comes with a nice piece of change. Just what other cash incentives do programmers have? Maybe we need big important prizes to recognize just how important this work is. There are certainly enough billionaires around to do that. I can't say that I really understand the process. Is it the programmers who get the credit, or the people who told the programmers what to program? Or did the AI partly program itself? Anyone know? bill w On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:29 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 02/12/2020 14:43, bill w asked: > > Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever done? bill w > > > So far, yes. > > But it won't be the best thing it ever does. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 02:39:55 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 21:39:55 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: <6926be13-ee0e-ff15-a32f-6202427326dc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 3:40 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Suppose the increasing ability of AI is like a classic curve: at first > positively accelerated, then negative, slowing down gradually. Just where > on the curve is it now? Sure, it's a wild guess. If that curve is true, > then we can expect more breakthroughs in the next 20 years than we have had > in the last 20. > I think it'll be accelerating for years. The Nobel Prize comes with a nice piece of change. Just what other cash > incentives do programmers have? Maybe we need big important prizes to > recognize just how important this work is. There are certainly enough > billionaires around to do that. > I dunno, Bill Gates seemed to do OK as a programmer. :-) Granted, he's the exception; few earn billions from it. Programming for hire is a decent-paying job, but the big returns come from taking big risks to introduce new products. I can't say that I really understand the process. Is it the programmers > who get the credit, or the people who told the programmers what to > program? Or did the AI partly program itself? Anyone know? > DeepMind and AlphaFold, are Google properties, so Google (Alphabet) will be reaping the financial rewards of the commercialization of AlphaFold and DeepMind's other AI products. Something like the Nobel Prize would likely be awarded to whomever led the AlphaFold team. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Thu Dec 3 06:55:03 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 22:55:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] wheres the beef Message-ID: <20201202225503.Horde.TsRW4fV5EdqM7UdAExxumwd@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting BillK: > On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 16:00, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: >> >> This graphic from XKCD tells the story better than words: >> https://xkcd.com/1338/ >> >> spike >> _______________________________________________ > > > And insects outweigh humans by 17 times! > That's why they want us to start eating insects. :( That is a completely unfair comparison. You are comparing the entire class of insects composed of 900k+ species to but a single species of mammal: Homo sapiens. But yes, that is why insects are on the menu. However to be fair eating insects is preferable to getting eaten by them. And some of them don't even wait until you are dead. > > Quote: > All life on Earth, in one staggering chart > Scientists estimated the mass of all life. It?s mind boggling. > By Brian Resnick and Javier Zarracina Updated Aug 15, 2018 > > By weight, human beings are insignificant. We outweigh all terrestrial vertebrates, that is mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians, combined with the exception of our own livestock. Of the vertebrates, only the fish outweigh us. And again, we are but a single species. That is pretty significant at least in a statistical sense. We seem to be DNA's killer app so to speak. Stuart LaForge From giulio at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:33:24 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:33:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Prometheism, by Jason Jorjani: Visionary transhumanism on steroids Message-ID: Prometheism, by Jason Jorjani: Visionary transhumanism on steroids We will embark on a cosmic conquest to recode the matrix of reality... https://turingchurch.net/prometheism-by-jason-jorjani-visionary-transhumanism-on-steroids-8f1debcdaeef From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 17:02:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:02:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] link Message-ID: Take vitamin E. Don't bother. Take glucosamine. Don't bother. Who knows? It might matter, so I will. bill w https://www.studyfinds.org/glucosamine-reduce-death-risk-as-much-as-exercise/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 18:44:01 2020 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:44:01 -0700 Subject: [ExI] Are Social Media to blame for USA political hatreds? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494e39e9-a708-13c2-e128-084c60760d93@gmail.com> On 10/11/20 4:42 PM, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Our social dilemma > By Bill Hansmann October 10, 2020 > > > > Quotes: > I watched an extremely troubling movie the other night on the > recommendation of my friend Rich. It was on Netflix but is also > available on YouTube and is called The Social Dilemma. > > We wonder why partisan rancor and political division are at an > unprecedented level in our country. This film suggests a likely > answer. > > We spend a lot of time on social platforms like Facebook, Twitter, > Instagram, and others, but not nearly as much time as they spend on > us. It seems that these platforms are populated and are indeed driven > by algorithms that are individually calibrated to give each user what > the platform decides that person wants to see, demonstrated by his > pushing the "LIKE" buttons. Liberals get items with a liberal slant. > Conservatives receive stories and items that match their previous > likes. Those individuals who exhibit a liking of conspiracies get > more of the same, as well as ads designed to sell black helicopters. > ---- I fail to see how curation itself is a problem.? If I had a wonderful assistant that understood my interests really well in order to filter way way too much information and opinion to maximize my effectiveness and enjoyment I would be delighted.? I totally disagree that this is the problem.? The real problem is that we have chucked reason and discussions starting from well examined base premises and values out the door in favor of shouting slogans and attacks on persons rather than on ideas and implementations.?? This used to be considered extremely bad form in public discourse. That said I can agree that the actual mechanics and limits of some social media are not at all fit for deep discussion and understanding of positions.?? > More and more when considering the opinions of people I know, I ask > myself, How can they think that way? How can they believe that? They > are, in fact, being programmed to feel that way by their interactions > with their social media. And unfortunately, I am receiving the same > treatment, with different modalities resulting in a different mindset. I don't buy into programming as such.? I believe in radical self-responsibility.? Of course it is true most people do not seem to take to it or have the set of skills needed.??? But I don't buy victimization by forces outside one's control that determine one's very thoughts? generally speak.?? Today's propaganda machines and social pressure technology truly is horrendous and powerful.? But at the end of the day the responsibility is individual. - samantha From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 18:54:38 2020 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:54:38 -0700 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: References: <6926be13-ee0e-ff15-a32f-6202427326dc@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <2b625aa4-7c11-8c89-f815-4f258510df10@gmail.com> What incentive do programmers have?? I was in the heart of Silicon Valley starting in the 70s in what led up to the Homebrew Computer Club.? I was in SF then and living in the Haight.? A bunch of hippies became techno-hippies as fast as the first rudimentary do it yourself computer building kits or even xeroxed instructions became available.?? Computer Power to the People was our motto, dream and chant.?? And our crowd along with our pocket protector non-hippy engineering geek siblings changed the face of the world.??? That revolutionary fervor and power is not at all death.? Look to Open Source - to massive mutual several interest cooperatives and their power beyond more closed systems.? Yes there are rent takers and some of them threaten the abundance that can come from such technology.? Yes there are those that want to protect their relative position of wealth and power against forces of revolutionary change. But the incentives are very much alive. I did commercial software for four decades and it can indeed suck the joy and the promise and the incentives out if they are not continuously refreshed.? Doing something technically really cool that gets owned and used for things you don't believe in is deadening. Money?? We have all the tools to spin up a mere idea into an online SaaS or other business with extremely little working capital and a cohort or two that has the dream.? We are awash in incentives. - samantha On 12/2/20 1:38 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Suppose the increasing ability of AI is like a classic curve:? at > first positively accelerated, then negative, slowing down gradually.? > Just where on the curve is it now?? Sure, it's a wild guess.? If that > curve is true, then we can expect more breakthroughs in the next 20 > years than we have had in the last 20.? > > The Nobel Prize comes with a nice piece of change.? Just what other > cash incentives do programmers have?? Maybe we need big important > prizes to recognize just how important this work is. There are > certainly enough billionaires around to do that. > > I can't say that I really understand the process.? Is it the > programmers who get the credit, or the people who told the programmers > what to program?? Or did the AI partly program itself? Anyone know? > > bill w > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:29 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > On 02/12/2020 14:43, bill w asked: >> Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever?done?? bill w > > So far, yes. > > But it won't be the best thing it ever does. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 19:19:03 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 19:19:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Arecibo radio telescope now collapsed completely. In-Reply-To: <001001d6c7f9$a58c0750$f0a415f0$@rainier66.com> References: <001001d6c7f9$a58c0750$f0a415f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2020 at 15:52, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Fortunately since the Arecibo dish was built, we have figured out how to do > long baseline interferometry, which makes a group of smaller dishes act as a > much bigger reflector. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Video of the collapse has now been released. Quote: The incredibly dramatic new video, from the NSF website, shows the view from a camera on the ground as the platform falls. The cables on one of the three support towers snapped first, so the platform swings down on the remaining two, where it hits a rock cliff just out of the camera?s field of view. ----------------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 20:00:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:00:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry Message-ID: Yeah, psych does some good. Notice that I did not say that the secretaries and psychiatrists both failed. In fact, both succeeded with some patients. It was only that the doctors did not do better than the secretaries. Same type of study was done with psychoanalysts with the same outcome. Long ago- 60s. All some people need is a good listener and all the stuff one learns in grad school is not needed. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 4 22:00:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 14:00:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004501d6ca88$d617df20$82479d60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry >?Yeah, psych does some good. Notice that I did not say that the secretaries and psychiatrists both failed. In fact, both succeeded with some patients. It was only that the doctors did not do better than the secretaries. Same type of study was done with psychoanalysts with the same outcome. Long ago- 60s. All some people need is a good listener and all the stuff one learns in grad school is not needed. bill w Ja and something else occurred to me: the psych doctor?s secretary might likely do better at being an amateur psychologist than the dentist?s secretary. Reasoning: the psychologist and psychiatrist might be more likely to hire the person who has the skillset so familiar to their profession. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Dec 5 00:32:24 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 19:32:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry In-Reply-To: <004501d6ca88$d617df20$82479d60$@rainier66.com> References: <004501d6ca88$d617df20$82479d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Also consider that there is much variability among psychotherapists. There are therapist variables that effect outcomes that are independent of therapist education level, type of therapy training, sex, age, and experience as a therapist. Scott Miller studies this and coined the term Supershrinks to describe highly effective elite psychotherapists whose impressive outcomes are undeniable. Dr. Miller concluded these therapists all had some things in common. The good news is these can be cultivated. They are assessing one?s baseline skillset, engaging in deliberate practice to improve those skills, and obtaining ongoing feedback. And there are likely therapist variables that effect outcomes that cannot be cultivated. But he suggests the influence of those is less than the three components Miller discovered. You can learn more about this here among other places: https://deliberatepracticeinpsychotherapy.com/articles-on-therapist-development/ https://www.scottdmiller.com/about-scott/ -Henry > On Dec 4, 2020, at 5:00 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > > > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry > > >?Yeah, psych does some good. Notice that I did not say that the secretaries and psychiatrists both failed. In fact, both succeeded with some patients. It was only that the doctors did not do better than the secretaries. Same type of study was done with psychoanalysts with the same outcome. Long ago- 60s. All some people need is a good listener and all the stuff one learns in grad school is not needed. bill w > > Ja and something else occurred to me: the psych doctor?s secretary might likely do better at being an amateur psychologist than the dentist?s secretary. Reasoning: the psychologist and psychiatrist might be more likely to hire the person who has the skillset so familiar to their profession. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 14:15:16 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 08:15:16 -0600 Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry In-Reply-To: References: <004501d6ca88$d617df20$82479d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Thanks Henry! Do schools of medicine and clinical psychology now try to teach these skills? And are people who don't have them to the proper degree somehow kept from graduating or going into practice? bill w On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:34 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Also consider that there is much variability among psychotherapists. There > are therapist variables that effect outcomes that are independent of > therapist education level, type of therapy training, sex, age, and > experience as a therapist. > > Scott Miller studies this and coined the term Supershrinks to describe > highly effective elite psychotherapists whose impressive outcomes are > undeniable. Dr. Miller concluded these therapists all had some things in > common. The good news is these can be cultivated. They are assessing one?s > baseline skillset, engaging in deliberate practice to improve those skills, > and obtaining ongoing feedback. And there are likely therapist variables > that effect outcomes that cannot be cultivated. But he suggests the > influence of those is less than the three components Miller discovered. > > You can learn more about this here among other places: > > > https://deliberatepracticeinpsychotherapy.com/articles-on-therapist-development/ > > https://www.scottdmiller.com/about-scott/ > > -Henry > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 5:00 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ? > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] attn" Henry > > > > >?Yeah, psych does some good. Notice that I did not say that the > secretaries and psychiatrists both failed. In fact, both succeeded with > some patients. It was only that the doctors did not do better than the > secretaries. Same type of study was done with psychoanalysts with the same > outcome. Long ago- 60s. All some people need is a good listener and all > the stuff one learns in grad school is not needed. bill w > > > > Ja and something else occurred to me: the psych doctor?s secretary might > likely do better at being an amateur psychologist than the dentist?s > secretary. Reasoning: the psychologist and psychiatrist might be more > likely to hire the person who has the skillset so familiar to their > profession. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 16:10:51 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 16:10:51 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Building a honeybee brain Message-ID: How A.I. bumblebee brains could usher in a new era for navigation By Luke Dormehl November 28, 2020 Quotes: The brain of a honeybee is orders of magnitude smaller and technically more simplistic than a human brain. A human brain has, as far as we are aware, somewhere in the order of 86 billion neurons, and a volume of 1,274 cubic centimeters. A honeybee brain has 1 million neurons and is about the size of a pinhead. Honeybees might seem simpler ? and, in a very real sense, they are ? but reverse engineering a bee brain isn?t about low-hanging fruit with no practical application. Marshall said that bees are ?consummate visual navigators, [adept at] long-distance navigation, with very sophisticated learning abilities. They?re much more than the simple kind of reactive automata that people often think insects are. Individually, they?re very clever.? Previous research has suggested that honeybees are able to solve challenges such as the traveling salesman problem (in their case, finding the shortest route between flowers discovered in a random order) in a fraction of the time that it would take the world?s top supercomputers. Building a honeybee brain in silicon could therefore help develop sophisticated navigation tools that could be lightweight, ultra-low-powered, and orders of magnitude more efficient than the deep learning approaches,? said David Rajan, CEO of Opteran. The company?s technology could power future drones, autonomous vehicles, and various robots. -------------- Sounds a good way to go! BillK From avant at sollegro.com Sat Dec 5 19:25:50 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2020 11:25:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] link In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20201205112550.Horde.CO-r9yD-N-zYWro80RPEupV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill W: > Take vitamin E. Don't bother. Take glucosamine. Don't bother. Who > knows? It might matter, so I will. bill w > > https://www.studyfinds.org/glucosamine-reduce-death-risk-as-much-as-exercise/ The glucosamine effect seems legit since they are getting reproducible results from studies on both sides of the Atlantic. If glucosamine can increase LDL particle size in the bloodstream like the authors suggest, then that is pretty nifty because there is correlation between LDL particle size and longevity. Here is the actual peer-reviewed article, if you want to weigh the numbers yourself: https://www.jabfm.org/content/jabfp/33/6/842.full.pdf --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Abstract Background: Limited previous studies in the United Kingdom or a single US state have demonstrated an association between intake of glucosamine/chondroitin and mortality. This study sought to investigate the association between regular consumption of glucosamine/chondroitin and overall and cardiovascular (CVD) mortality in a national sample of US adults. Methods: Combined data from 16,686 participants in National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey 1999 to 2010, merged with the 2015 Public-use Linked Mortality File. Cox proportional hazards models were conducted for both CVD and all-cause mortality. Results: In the study sample, there were 658 (3.94%) participants who had been taking glucosamine/ chondroitin for a year or longer. During followup (median, 107 months), there were 3366 total deaths (20.17%); 674 (20.02%) were due to CVD. Respondents taking glucosamine/chondroitin were less likely to have CVD mortality (hazard ratio [HR] = 0.51; 95% CI, 0.28-0.92). After controlling for age, use was associated with a 39% reduction in all-cause (HR = 0.61; 95% CI, 0.49?0.77) and 65% reduction (HR = 0.35; 95% CI, 0.20?0.61) in CVD mortality. Multivariable-adjusted HR showed that the association was maintained after adjustment for age, sex, race, education, smoking status, and physical activity (all-cause mortality, HR = 0.73; 95% CI, 0.57?0.93; CVD mortality, HR = 0.42; 95% CI, 0.23?0.75). Conclusions: Regular intake of glucosamine/chondroitin is associated with lower all-cause and CVD mortality in a national US cohort and the findings are consistent with previous studies in other populations. Prospective studies to confirm the link may be warranted. ( J Am Board Fam Med 2020;33:842?847.) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart LaForge From sparge at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 19:51:00 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 14:51:00 -0500 Subject: [ExI] link In-Reply-To: <20201205112550.Horde.CO-r9yD-N-zYWro80RPEupV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201205112550.Horde.CO-r9yD-N-zYWro80RPEupV@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 2:28 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > The glucosamine effect seems legit since they are getting > reproducible results from studies on both sides of the Atlantic. > It's an observational study: it can't determine the cause no matter how repeatable it is. Many of these studies (meat is bad, eggs are bad, X is good, etc.) are just demonstrating the healthy user bias. Healthy people exercise, take supplements, don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat lots of red meat, etc. So if you look at glucosamine users, most are in the healthy user camp. Until you take a random sample of the population and assign half to take glucosamine and half to not take glucosamine, and follow them for years, you can't say glucosamine was the cause of a difference in mortality. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Sat Dec 5 20:38:43 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 15:38:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51881676-0C73-4B8D-8F6A-60C9F798F8F3@alumni.virginia.edu> I wish. The lag on translating data to clinical practice and training is still too large. There are small factions within programs that promote these skills and individual supervisors who have influence one person at a time. That is helping. But there are also factions that actively resist such integration of knowledge and prefer to preserve their worldview. They have trouble accepting that they aren?t special, wasted time and or money on irrelevant schooling, or that all they have been teaching trainees has been wrong. They are not humble enough or aligned with science enough to follow the data. Eventually they are weeded out of the system when what they promote can?t be replicated. But that takes time. So much time. Regulating entities that confer licenses and accreditation to training programs help promote such change. But there is lag there as well. That being said, what is on licensing exams now compared to when I took the test 20 years ago has changed to reflect the current science. But that doesn?t help change those who were licensed prior to changes and what they teach trainees necessarily. Continuing education can do that to some degree for open minded clinicians. Others entrenched in their worldviews can find continuing education offerings that reinforce their positions. It?s much like Facebook providing content it knows the users prefers. There is that much divergent yet approved CE content out there. Eventually that gets tossed out too as the content is reviewed by subject matter experts in accrediting bodies (hopefully/ideally). But it takes time. > On Dec 5, 2020, at 9:16 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > Thanks Henry! Do schools of medicine and clinical psychology now try to teach these skills? And are people who don't have them to the proper degree somehow kept from graduating or going into practice? bill w > >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 6:34 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: >> Also consider that there is much variability among psychotherapists. There are therapist variables that effect outcomes that are independent of therapist education level, type of therapy training, sex, age, and experience as a therapist. >> >> Scott Miller studies this and coined the term Supershrinks to describe highly effective elite psychotherapists whose impressive outcomes are undeniable. Dr. Miller concluded these therapists all had some things in common. The good news is these can be cultivated. They are assessing one?s baseline skillset, engaging in deliberate practice to improve those skills, and obtaining ongoing feedback. And there are likely therapist variables that effect outcomes that cannot be cultivated. But he suggests the influence of those is less than the three components Miller discovered. >> >> You can learn more about this here among other places: >> >> https://deliberatepracticeinpsychotherapy.com/articles-on-therapist-development/ >> >> https://www.scottdmiller.com/about-scott/ >> >> -Henry >>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 5:00 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >>> >>> ? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >>> Subject: [ExI] attn" Henry >>> >>> >>> >>> >?Yeah, psych does some good. Notice that I did not say that the secretaries and psychiatrists both failed. In fact, both succeeded with some patients. It was only that the doctors did not do better than the secretaries. Same type of study was done with psychoanalysts with the same outcome. Long ago- 60s. All some people need is a good listener and all the stuff one learns in grad school is not needed. bill w >>> >>> >>> >>> Ja and something else occurred to me: the psych doctor?s secretary might likely do better at being an amateur psychologist than the dentist?s secretary. Reasoning: the psychologist and psychiatrist might be more likely to hire the person who has the skillset so familiar to their profession. >>> >>> >>> >>> spike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 6 01:50:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 17:50:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] san matay - no Message-ID: <001501d6cb72$1e578210$5b068630$@rainier66.com> San Mateo county has said no to the governor?s shutdown orders. It is bordered on the north by San Francisco county and to the east by Santa Clara county, both of which are going along with the shutdown. San Mateo won?t go along. So now we get a good data set. Florida did OK after their shutdown ended but that?s a mild climate. Here we have two counties on either side which complied with the shutdown orders. All three counties have similar population densities on that side. San Mateo county has the international airport, San Francisco has a huge homeless population and lotsa hipsters, Santa Clara county has lotsa computer geeks and things, but all three have the same climate and other conditions. We now get to see how effective shutdowns are. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 47087 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Dec 6 02:16:43 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 18:16:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] san matay - no In-Reply-To: <001501d6cb72$1e578210$5b068630$@rainier66.com> References: <001501d6cb72$1e578210$5b068630$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <36c05d34-0916-c3b7-ac9d-4006929ce3aa@pobox.com> On 2020-12-05 17:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > San Mateo county has the international airport, San Francisco has a > huge homeless population and lotsa hipsters, Santa Clara county has > lotsa computer geeks and things, but all three have the same climate > and other conditions. SF is literally cooler; enough to make a difference? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 15:12:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 09:12:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] slavery Message-ID: Spike, you mentioned that your Indian and probably other Asian students had no idea of what went on in the South re slavery. Well, I have to tell you: we don't know about it either. The history books taight in public schools could be searched and I'll bet you cannot find a mention of lynching etc. A case of the losers getting to write the history. Most people here do not think that the cause of the war had anything to do with slavery - states' rights, they say. Repel Northern aggression. Just another case of believing what you want to believe. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 6 15:28:57 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 07:28:57 -0800 Subject: [ExI] slavery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003501d6cbe4$84057320$8c105960$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2020 7:12 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] slavery Spike, you mentioned that your Indian and probably other Asian students had no idea of what went on in the South re slavery? They know what went on, but they know nothing of the culture. They don?t get it, they really don?t. They may have heard their grandparents talk about the days when India was an English colony and how poorly the English treated the Indians (waaaay the hell worse than Americans treated their ?Indians.?) The Mockingbird book isn?t really about slavery by rather southern culture in the 1930s. >?Well, I have to tell you: we don't know about it either. The history books taight in public schools could be searched and I'll bet you cannot find a mention of lynching etc. A case of the losers getting to write the history... Ja. What we are seeing here is rebellious dark-skinned Indian with a dot students shamelessly identifying as black and equating that with African American. As it turns out, I know the family of the student who was stomping on the hot-button, and they were (from what I can tell) never poor, never repressed, always upper class Indian. We don?t really know how to handle it when Sukad Ramanujan is doing the n-word rap songs. White people already know that is a no-go zone. But Indians are free to identify as black now, because we have an example of a VP who did it and used it to advance her career. Indian is the new black. India is in Asia. Therefor Asian is now black. China is in Asia. Japan is in Asia. >?Most people here do not think that the cause of the war had anything to do with slavery - states' rights, they say. Repel Northern aggression. Just another case of believing what you want to believe. bill w Do let me assure you, that concept is very clear to me. Of course I come from a Yankee family. My great^4 grandfather became a representative to the newly-formed statehouse in West Virginia after the war because he was an anti-slavery crusader for two decades before the war. He went on to be a senator in the state government. That attitude has been passed down for generations. spike w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 16:38:21 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 10:38:21 -0600 Subject: [ExI] slavery In-Reply-To: <003501d6cbe4$84057320$8c105960$@rainier66.com> References: <003501d6cbe4$84057320$8c105960$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I said 'believing what you want to believe', but that is unfair to the students. They are saying what they were taught by allegedly responsible adults. The idea that adults, parents and teachers, are wrong, are biased, are teaching the wrong thing, won't sink in, if ever, until they are adults. They don't understand why many people, a lot of them black, are urging society to recognize that their heroes and their statues need to be reconsidered and brought down. More Northern aggression and just another demand by blacks that is unfair. ("What do they want now? Do we have to pay and pay for a war that neither our parents nor ourselves were in?" The Asians are taking advantage of being called black. Well, why not? billw On Sun, Dec 6, 2020 at 9:30 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Sunday, December 6, 2020 7:12 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* [ExI] slavery > > > > Spike, you mentioned that your Indian and probably other Asian students > had no idea of what went on in the South re slavery? > > > > They know what went on, but they know nothing of the culture. They don?t > get it, they really don?t. They may have heard their grandparents talk > about the days when India was an English colony and how poorly the English > treated the Indians (waaaay the hell worse than Americans treated their > ?Indians.?) The Mockingbird book isn?t really about slavery by rather > southern culture in the 1930s. > > > > > > > > > > > > >?Well, I have to tell you: we don't know about it either. The history > books taight in public schools could be searched and I'll bet you cannot > find a mention of lynching etc. A case of the losers getting to write the > history... > > > > Ja. What we are seeing here is rebellious dark-skinned Indian with a dot > students shamelessly identifying as black and equating that with African > American. As it turns out, I know the family of the student who was > stomping on the hot-button, and they were (from what I can tell) never > poor, never repressed, always upper class Indian. We don?t really know > how to handle it when Sukad Ramanujan is doing the n-word rap songs. White > people already know that is a no-go zone. But Indians are free to identify > as black now, because we have an example of a VP who did it and used it to > advance her career. Indian is the new black. India is in Asia. Therefor > Asian is now black. China is in Asia. Japan is in Asia. > > > > >?Most people here do not think that the cause of the war had anything to > do with slavery - states' rights, they say. Repel Northern aggression. > Just another case of believing what you want to believe. > > bill w > > > > Do let me assure you, that concept is very clear to me. Of course I come > from a Yankee family. My great^4 grandfather became a representative to > the newly-formed statehouse in West Virginia after the war because he was > an anti-slavery crusader for two decades before the war. He went on to be > a senator in the state government. That attitude has been passed down for > generations. spike > > > > > > > > w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 6 19:56:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 11:56:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 2 yr old solution to trolley problem Message-ID: <000c01d6cc09$dd304b30$9790e190$@rainier66.com> I have heard so much discussion on the ethical dilemma known as the trolley problem. This video is a two-year old child being introduced to the dilemma and his innovative approach, one I have never seen before. I wouldn't recommend this solution, but we must acknowledge that it is the most equitable: https://youtu.be/-N_RZJUAQY4 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 7 14:03:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 06:03:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 2 yr old solution to trolley problem In-Reply-To: <000c01d6cc09$dd304b30$9790e190$@rainier66.com> References: <000c01d6cc09$dd304b30$9790e190$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000401d6cca1$c31c48a0$4954d9e0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: 2 yr old solution to trolley problem >. This video is a two-year old child being introduced to the dilemma and his innovative approach.: https://youtu.be/-N_RZJUAQY4 After I posted the video, I got to thinking. OK so it is shocking funny, the whole uh oooohhhh. and all that, kids say the darnedest things, har har. But what if. that child grows up to be a mass murdering teenage psychopath? We saw it developing in him at age 2, or already there at that age. Sheesh, what a world we live in. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 16:05:38 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 08:05:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 2 yr old solution to trolley problem In-Reply-To: <000401d6cca1$c31c48a0$4954d9e0$@rainier66.com> References: <000c01d6cc09$dd304b30$9790e190$@rainier66.com> <000401d6cca1$c31c48a0$4954d9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2020 at 6:06 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >? This video is a two-year old child being introduced to the dilemma and > his innovative approach?: > > > > https://youtu.be/-N_RZJUAQY4 > > > > After I posted the video, I got to thinking. OK so it is shocking funny, > the whole uh oooohhhh? and all that, kids say the darnedest things, har har. > > > > But what if? that child grows up to be a mass murdering teenage > psychopath? We saw it developing in him at age 2, or already there at that > age. Sheesh, what a world we live in. > Alternatively, what if that child grows up with a grim understanding of death, motivating a drive to conquer all forms of death that are conquerable and allow even those who died to violence to live further? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 7 20:10:20 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 12:10:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] 2 yr old solution to trolley problem In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d6cc09$dd304b30$9790e190$@rainier66.com> <000401d6cca1$c31c48a0$4954d9e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <005301d6ccd4$fde2a370$f9a7ea50$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat https://youtu.be/-N_RZJUAQY4 But what if? that child grows up to be a mass murdering teenage psychopath? We saw it developing in him at age 2, or already there at that age. Sheesh, what a world we live in. >?Alternatively, what if that child grows up with a grim understanding of death, motivating a drive to conquer all forms of death that are conquerable and allow even those who died to violence to live further? Adrian Excellent, what a marvelous take on a grimly humorous uh oh. Well done sir. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:49:06 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 20:49:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] New Solar EV Has a 1,000-Mile Range Message-ID: This New Solar EV Has a 1,000-Mile Range?But You May Never Need to Charge It Both variations sold out in just 24 hours. By Rachel Cormack December 7, 2020 Quotes: San Diego-based Aptera has just unveiled a new solar-based three-wheeler it claims doesn?t require charging?but just happens to have a 1,000-mile battery-electric range for good measure. The futuristic trike, which has an almost Jetsons flying car-like aesthetic, features more than 32 square feet of solar panels that are integrated into the body. Preorders for the Paradigm ($29,900) and Paradigm Plus ($46,900) opened last Friday, and both vehicles sold out in just 24 hours. -------------------- I'm not sure if this very lightweight car would stand up to being bashed about by large SUVs trying to push them out of the way. ;) So maybe it is more of a Californian town car? BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 18:18:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 12:18:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] krugman Message-ID: recent political events have taught Americans, at least, to fear the rising power of some groups within this country more than we fear some hypothetical threat from abroad. Obviously the world is still out there, and while world trade may be stagnating, it?s still much bigger than it was a few decades ago. But America?s future will be defined by what we do at home, not on some global playing field. Reminiscent of Pogo - 'We have met the enemy and it is us." It appears that some of us have refused the melting pot. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 07:19:32 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 02:19:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal Message-ID: There are some voices claiming that Neanderthals were nice, peaceful people who lived in harmony with nature, the big-brained, strong silent types who unfortunately got slaughtered by those despicable H.sapiens, greedy, capitalist and unnatural. "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and dangerous. We know that because their skulls do not show signs of the domestication syndrome. There is a consistent pattern of changes that diverse animals undergo during domestication - they become juvenilized, or neotenic. Whenever an animal is under selective pressure to reduce aggression and fear, this syndrome is observed, sometimes within a few generations. It is easy to see why - individual maturation is under the control of just a few genes, immature individuals are less aggressive than adults and less fearful, so grossly turning the dials on the maturation mechanism for reduced aggression is, evolutionarily speaking, the low-hanging fruit - the kind of adaptation that is likely to happen relatively quickly compared to other more precise adaptations. Humans domesticated each other when the beta males learned how to use gossip to plot assassinations of alpha males, and how to do it very safely. Chimps kill each other too - but they tend to do it in hot action, in a flurry of blows and teeth, with some risk of injury to participants. Humans plan murder while maintaining deniability, gauging reliability of allies, they kill with ranged weapons and in ambush, essentially immune from the victim's retaliation. Just watch The Godfather for tips on how to do it right. To engage in safe intragroup coalitional violence you have to be socially savvy, or else it's you who will end up like a pincushion, not the other guy. Once humans started killing each other in cold blood, there was a strong selective pressure to be less aggressive, since it's the aggressive guys who everybody hated that ended up getting killed first. And there was selective pressure to develop social cognition, including a very strong fear of being left out of the gossip, since it's the odd guys who nobody cared about that ended up being killed next. It's strange to think that the better angels of our nature were born in cold-blooded slaughter but then the ways of evolution are mysterious, indeed. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:31:29 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 03:31:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?b?4oCYVGhlIGdhbWUgaGFzIGNoYW5nZWQu4oCZIEFJIHRyaXVt?= =?utf-8?q?phs_at_solving_protein_structures?= In-Reply-To: <001301d6c826$409e58c0$c1db0a40$@rainier66.com> References: <001301d6c826$409e58c0$c1db0a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 4:11 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] ?The game has changed.? AI triumphs at solving > protein structures > > > > >?Do y'all think that this is the best thing AI has ever done? bill w > > > > Entirely possible that it is the most significant advance AI has made with > respect to how it will impact humanity?s future. > > > ### Some caveats are in order - the errors in the AI-simulated structures were on the order of 10 nm. This is not yet a practical solution of the protein folding problem, since to be able to use a structure to correctly predict ligand binding, enzymatic function and other functional aspects you need an accuracy of a fraction of a nanometer. Still, it's a huge leap forward and quite reminiscent of the first AphaGo and other game AIs - going from nothing to middling (protein folding is here now) to very good to smashing the best human to vastly superhuman in just 3 - 4 years. It everything goes well we might indeed have an AI capable of whole-cell predictive metabolic and maybe even structural modeling using only genome in the next few years. If this capability became available it would be the biggest inflection point in the whole history of biology and medicine, greater than antibiotics, anesthesia and any other single advance. It would allow stunningly fast development of highly advanced pharmaceuticals, biotherapeutics and implantable devices, orders of magnitude faster than now. Old-timers here may recall that twenty-something years ago on this list I proposed the solution of the protein folding problem as a way for an UFAI to quickly defeat humanity. The UFAI could use the predictive capability afforded by protein structure modeling to create both a self-replicating computational substrate to live in and the self-replicating weapons (or bioweapons) to kill us. Looks like no UFAI is needed to solve protein folding..... hopefully AlphaFAI, the grandson of AlphaFold, will be here to protect us when the UFAI is (almost inevitably) created. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:08:24 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 09:08:24 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 07:22, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > There are some voices claiming that Neanderthals were nice, peaceful people who lived in harmony with nature, the big-brained, strong silent types who unfortunately got slaughtered by those despicable H.sapiens, greedy, capitalist and unnatural. > > "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and dangerous. We know that because their skulls do not show signs of the domestication syndrome. There is a consistent pattern of changes that diverse animals undergo during domestication - they become juvenilized, or neotenic. Whenever an animal is under selective pressure to reduce aggression and fear, this syndrome is observed, sometimes within a few generations. It is easy to see why - individual maturation is under the control of just a few genes, immature individuals are less aggressive than adults and less fearful, so grossly turning the dials on the maturation mechanism for reduced aggression is, evolutionarily speaking, the low-hanging fruit - the kind of adaptation that is likely to happen relatively quickly compared to other more precise adaptations. > > Humans domesticated each other when the beta males learned how to use gossip to plot assassinations of alpha males, and how to do it very safely. Chimps kill each other too - but they tend to do it in hot action, in a flurry of blows and teeth, with some risk of injury to participants. Humans plan murder while maintaining deniability, gauging reliability of allies, they kill with ranged weapons and in ambush, essentially immune from the victim's retaliation. Just watch The Godfather for tips on how to do it right. To engage in safe intragroup coalitional violence you have to be socially savvy, or else it's you who will end up like a pincushion, not the other guy. Once humans started killing each other in cold blood, there was a strong selective pressure to be less aggressive, since it's the aggressive guys who everybody hated that ended up getting killed first. And there was selective pressure to develop social cognition, including a very strong fear of being left out of the gossip, since it's the odd guys who nobody cared about that ended up being killed next. > > It's strange to think that the better angels of our nature were born in cold-blooded slaughter but then the ways of evolution are mysterious, indeed. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ 'evolutionarily speaking' that only applies if the aggressive guy is assassinated before he has passed his genes on to his children. Young unmarried bucks are still being cautious, trying to gain wealth and power. A hated powerful leader is more likely to have many wives and many children. However humans have more intelligence and quickly learn that bad behaviour can lead to assassination and other bad consequences. That's learned behaviour, not genes. The usual 'nature or nurture' argument. BillK From giulio at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 15:54:03 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 16:54:03 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Speakers, agenda Message-ID: Terasem Colloquium, December 10: Speakers, agenda You are invited to attend the Terasem Colloquium TOMORROW, Thursday, December 10, via Zoom. The Colloquium will start at 10am EST and last three hours. See here for the agenda and access coordinates. Speakers: Superstar thinker and writer Howard Bloom; Gulia Bassani, the Greta Thunberg of space; VR guru Philippe van Nedervelde; Yalda Mousavinia, space and crypto activist; Technoprogressive political activist Gabriel Rothblatt; David Brin, renowned science and fiction author. https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-10-speakers-agenda-64f1ff13136 From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 17:24:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:24:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rafal wrote: immature individuals are less aggressive than adults. Where did you get this? In humans the vast amount of violent crime is done by men 25 and under. bill w On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:11 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, 9 Dec 2020 at 07:22, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > There are some voices claiming that Neanderthals were nice, peaceful > people who lived in harmony with nature, the big-brained, strong silent > types who unfortunately got slaughtered by those despicable H.sapiens, > greedy, capitalist and unnatural. > > > > "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite > perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and dangerous. > We know that because their skulls do not show signs of the domestication > syndrome. There is a consistent pattern of changes that diverse animals > undergo during domestication - they become juvenilized, or neotenic. > Whenever an animal is under selective pressure to reduce aggression and > fear, this syndrome is observed, sometimes within a few generations. It is > easy to see why - individual maturation is under the control of just a few > genes, immature individuals are less aggressive than adults and less > fearful, so grossly turning the dials on the maturation mechanism for > reduced aggression is, evolutionarily speaking, the low-hanging fruit - the > kind of adaptation that is likely to happen relatively quickly compared to > other more precise adaptations. > > > > Humans domesticated each other when the beta males learned how to use > gossip to plot assassinations of alpha males, and how to do it very safely. > Chimps kill each other too - but they tend to do it in hot action, in a > flurry of blows and teeth, with some risk of injury to participants. Humans > plan murder while maintaining deniability, gauging reliability of allies, > they kill with ranged weapons and in ambush, essentially immune from the > victim's retaliation. Just watch The Godfather for tips on how to do it > right. To engage in safe intragroup coalitional violence you have to be > socially savvy, or else it's you who will end up like a pincushion, not the > other guy. Once humans started killing each other in cold blood, there was > a strong selective pressure to be less aggressive, since it's the > aggressive guys who everybody hated that ended up getting killed first. And > there was selective pressure to develop social cognition, including a very > strong fear of being left out of t! > he gossip, since it's the odd guys who nobody cared about that ended up > being killed next. > > > > It's strange to think that the better angels of our nature were born in > cold-blooded slaughter but then the ways of evolution are mysterious, > indeed. > > > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > > > 'evolutionarily speaking' that only applies if the aggressive guy is > assassinated before he has passed his genes on to his children. Young > unmarried bucks are still being cautious, trying to gain wealth and > power. > A hated powerful leader is more likely to have many wives and many > children. > However humans have more intelligence and quickly learn that bad > behaviour can lead to assassination and other bad consequences. That's > learned behaviour, not genes. > The usual 'nature or nurture' argument. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 9 20:02:04 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 12:02:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-12-09 09:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Rafal wrote:? immature individuals are less aggressive than adults. > Where did you get this?? In humans the vast amount of violent crime is > done by men 25 and under.? ? bill w But after puberty. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:17:45 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 14:17:45 -0600 Subject: [ExI] word of the day Message-ID: auto-cannibalism - It was in NYT article about an art exhibit featuring steaks grown from human cells. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/07/arts/design/Ouroboros-Steak-design-museum.html? Eating oneself, as steaks grown from your own body could be grown in your own lab, seems a great solution to eating the flesh of other animals. Perhaps the steaks grown from liver cells would taste differently from steaks grown from skin cells. Lots of possibilities here, such as splicing in different genes to alter the resulting meat in healthier ways. Riots are already planned. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:22:59 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 14:22:59 -0600 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:04 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-09 09:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Rafal wrote: immature individuals are less aggressive than adults. > > Where did you get this? In humans the vast amount of violent crime is > > done by men 25 and under. bill w > > But after puberty. Agreed - I suppose it depends on how you define > 'maturity'. The last thing, I think, to mature is the brain, and that's at > about 25, way past physical maturity of bones etc. There's a lot of time > between puberty and maturity. (for some it's infinite!) bill w bill w > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 9 19:17:27 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:17:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> On 2020-12-08 23:19, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite > perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and > dangerous. We know that because their skulls do not show signs > of the domestication syndrome. [...] I recently enjoyed that book. I wonder: if you were to repeat the Bel?ev fox experiment, but selecting for some irrelevant feature of the domestication syndrome (e.g. white spots) rather than for tameness, would tame animals result? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:45:26 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 12:45:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> References: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On 2020-12-08 23:19, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: >> "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and dangerous. We know that because their skulls do not show signs >> of the domestication syndrome. [...] > > I recently enjoyed that book. > > I wonder: if you were to repeat the Bel?ev fox experiment, but selecting for some irrelevant feature of the domestication syndrome (e.g. white spots) rather than for tameness, would tame animals result? IIRC, it?s sort of the accidental linkage between certain genes controlling development parts of the brain with those for other traits such as ear shape and coloration in mammals. Probably stuff on the same chromosome. By the way, it?s an old observation, but recall this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC387823/ I have yet to enjoy the book you?re discussing. I wonder if it discusses that humans seem to have bred faster than other apes. (I?m presuming this is true and that my memory of it is true.) Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 9 22:22:39 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 14:22:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] word of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-12-09 12:17, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Eating oneself, as steaks grown from your own body could be grown in > your own lab, seems a great solution to eating the flesh of other > animals.? [....] Seems likely to be the bad kind of feedback loop. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:59:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 16:59:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] word of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bad? If you are eating yourself you know exactly what the meat has been through, in terms of what you have eaten, smoked, drank, meds you have taken and so on. Should be the healthiest meat you can eat. No added hormones, no mercury, no depleting the oceans or harming the ozone layers. I am sure Spike can think of many more things, eh Spike? bill w On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 4:24 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-09 12:17, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Eating oneself, as steaks grown from your own body could be grown in > > your own lab, seems a great solution to eating the flesh of other > > animals. [....] > > Seems likely to be the bad kind of feedback loop. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 9 23:42:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 15:42:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] word of the day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00aa01d6ce84$ff297400$fd7c5c00$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2020 2:59 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] word of the day >?Bad? If you are eating yourself you know exactly what the meat has been through, in terms of what you have eaten, smoked, drank, meds you have taken and so on. Should be the healthiest meat you can eat. No added hormones, no mercury, no depleting the oceans or harming the ozone layers. I am sure Spike can think of many more things, eh Spike? bill w Of course BillW. There are plenty of good reasons to do something like this, reasons having nothing to do with health, this being not my area of expertise. For instance? Let?s start with vegans, particularly those who flatly refuse all meat based on the very legitimate argument that something hasta die for every plate of flesh. There is just go getting around that one really. I am not a vegan, but I do empathize with those who do refuse flesh foods based on ethics alone. I recognize my own ethical failure to reach perfection for I do devour flesh. Were it to be made remotely palatable, I would eat me. Think of the variations on a theme: one could trade flesh with a sweetheart for instance, giving that whole concept a new meaning. We could perhaps develop immunities by sharing flesh in a potluck: make dishes with our name on it, you choose the healthiest individuals to devour, that sorta thing. We have a number of contests, often exhausting and even dangerous ones, so that the competitive types among us can demonstrate their athletic prowess. Well? with this technology, they would have a new way to very directly demonstrate how tough they are. We could make flavor a new category for beauty contests. Of course in our uptight times, the whole concept of beauty contests have been called into question by polite society, but no worries. The contestants would have a perfectly valid snappy retort: Hey, I never said I had good taste, only that I taste good. We could create dishes with seed flesh taken from specific parts of the body. When shared with a sweetheart, the donor could perhaps provide erotic feedback by pretending to feel sensations in the donor region as it is being devoured: oooh baby that hurts so goooood? etc. Hmmm, OK scratch that last bit, but perhaps we could think of some variation that might work (depending on how strictly we define the term ?work.?) I am open to suggestion, as always. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Dec 11 16:12:04 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 11:12:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com> References: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I have an unexpected and positive update on my local situation! Sports have all been cancelled here so far this year, so maybe this was an opportune time to rock the boat. Or all our letters and data finally penetrated some skulls. Either way, I?ll take the victory, which is really one for our kids. 12/11/20 (Northampton, MA) ? It?s been years in discussion?but now it?s official. Students in Northampton will start school later in the morning. The city?s school committee voted last night to move the high school start time next September to 9 a.m. Advocates have long been calling for a later start time so teenagers can get more sleep. Northampton?s elementary students will start at 8am next Fall?Middle Schoolers will start classes at 8:30. > On Nov 14, 2020, at 8:42 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ?Thanks Henry, great essay. > > I too have a high schooler and agree: they like to stay up later than I do. California schools took action on this and moved earliest start times back from 730 to 830. Then the pandemic hit, which changed things even more, but in some ways for the better, at least for some students: they can drag out at 828, log on, be in class ready to go. Eat breakfast after or even during, if they move the camera up to show only eyes. Plenty do this. I know for I often attend that very worthwhile first period class in the morning, so I can see who is doing what. > > We recently heard Santa Clara public schools will be online the rest of the year because of disappointing covid numbers that plenty of us already knew were likely, for we know that flu travels best indoors, regardless of all other considerations. It turned cool recently. People went indoors. School's online for the year. > > Online school is very bad for some, not as good as in-person school for most, a benefit for a few. The academically rich get richer, the poor get poorer. We know. A sizable fraction of the students don't even bother to participate: they log on, mute their microphone, set the camera to show only the top of their head, then play video games on a separate device. As far as we know, the teacher is obligated to give that student a passing grade. The failing students know this as well. Some choose to get their pass and a free high school diploma. > > Other students turn a bad situation around to their advantage. I am a volunteer for American Math Competition, California Math League and Science Olympiad, so I am lucky to know the kind of students who make stepping stones out of stumbling blocks. But I see plenty of students who find ways to turn stepping stones into stumbling blocks. Some step up, some fall down. > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 9:02 PM > To: ExI chat list > Cc: Henry Rivera > Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: year round school > > I?ve given some thought to this topic of hours and have authored similar letters as Bill and been a co-signer to some. Me and a cadre of local mental health professionals have been seeking a change in the hours of schools in our distinct for at least 5 years. My high schooler has to be in his first classroom at 7:45am. His brain wants ten hours of sleep but he and his peers like to be up well after 10pm. Getting them to bed on time meets with resistance and instances of sneakily texting from bed. Do the algebra if you graduated high school and can. He doesn?t get enough sleep and drags through days too often. The research and data on what adolescents? brains need is clear. I think our failure to convince powers-that-be to change the hours comes down to sports. And this is true in other jurisdictions across the country. > > There are some parents and stakeholders that value and prioritize sports (which require, sometimes daily, after-school practices). Those parents see their kids come home after 1-3 hours of practice and have hours of homework. I used to have three hours of homework in high school. It seems like a little less for my high schooler Then there is dinner to fit in and they want their kids to have some unstructured time before it?s time for bed. If you change the school hours your options are all of that after school stuff gets pushed back a few hours later such that there is no unstructured time after homework is done basically; or you move those sport practices to before school and make just those kids get up early to squeeze in 1-2 hours of practice before classes start at 9 or later for example. The sport people don?t want either, so status quo remains. > > Personally, I tried out for 2 sports early on in high school and ended up playing chess after school, working on the yearbook or school paper, doing community service, and or working on drama productions on the stage and light crew which could take 3-5 hours on the run up to opening night. I had an hour commute to my private high school most of the time. So I know what it?s like to get home after eating on the road and doing homework until bed time. I loved doing those plays I?ll have you know. I was not deprived, and I?m not complaining. It was a choice on my part to be doing that vs spending additional time bumming around with friends or playing video games. So I didn?t mind it and was willing to have those trade offs. > > If athletics program kids make similar commitments and don?t mind getting up early I think that would be preferred over the current state of everyone being forced to get up early and being disadvantaged. Consider many kids may have nothing structured like sports practice after school and thus no motive to ensure school ends early enough to fit in lots of stuff after school. > > -Henry > >>> On Nov 13, 2020, at 8:57 PM, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: >>> ?On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 7:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via >>> extropy-chat wrote: >>> my letter to a legislator, head of the Education committee - your thoughts? bill w >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >>> From: William Flynn Wallace >>> Date: Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:48 AM >>> Subject: year round school >>> To: >>> >>> Dear Sir, >>> >>> I have a Ph. D. in Experimental and Clinical Psychology and taught for over 35 years. The idea of a 'summer slump' comes from studies on memory that do indeed show that students will do more poorly or even fail on tests that they took just a few weeks or months ago. Even at Harvard. But, they were not given the chance to study for them again - they had to take them cold. >>> >>> That absolutely does NOT mean that those memories are gone forever. No. Memories that last more than a day or two are with us permanently, though the longer we live the harder it is to retrieve them, mainly because of competition from later memories. There are some good reasons to have year long schooling, but the 'summer slump' is not one of them. >>> >>> The very best thing the Legislature could do to help students is to start school later in the day. At that age they are mostly night owls and wake up slowly, so that learning at 8 o'clock is difficult. They are there, they are awake, but their brains are still fuzzy. There are many studies done by physicians and psychologists that validate those conclusions. >>> >>> I do not think it matters with year long schooling how long the breaks are. I would be in favor of adding hours of school to the ones we have now. >>> >>> Just on a tangent: requiring Algebra is just wrong. Fewer than 5% of the high school graduates ever use it. I am in a chat group with a bunch of engineers and they concur - no value to students unless they are going into science, technology, engineering, or math (STEM), and those students will certainly take algebra, precalculus, and calculus if offered, along with geometry, solid geometry, trigonometry. Requiring algebra keeps many students from graduating. A waste of minds, in my opinion. And a lifelong hindrance to job prospects. Of course it differentially impacts minority students. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> William F. Wallace, Ph. D. University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa Brandon >>> MS >> >> I agree with Adrian about algebra being very useful, especially to >> people who don't pursue STEM careers. >> >> But I would turn this around on you. It's not so much that failing >> algebra keeps kids from graduating high school, but that the high >> school diploma was so important -- though nowadays, it's the Bachelors >> and even the Masters in some fields. In fact, one can learn algebra >> before and without getting high school diploma -- just as one can >> learn to read, write, and even do complicated mental stuff without >> said diploma. Yet someone without one is almost certain to be unable >> to get jobs that don't even require more than, say, a fifth grader's >> level of education in competence. Therein lies the real problem with >> education today: vast expenditures to little effect mainly aimed at >> credentialing people because there's a credentials arms race. >> >> Again, I recommend Bryan Caplan's 02018 book _The Case Against >> Education: Why the Education System Is a Waste of Time and Money_. >> >> With regard to the summer slump, I think it will fix more things in >> long term memory, but there will still be losses. For instance, how >> much history or civics or high school French will you remember if you >> went to school year round, graduated, but then never use any of these >> for a decade? Surely, you won't be starting at zero, but the question >> might better be why teach stuff kids aren't interested in, will only >> remember on the test, and will only recall later if at all after much >> prompting? What's the goal here? (Second language instruction, in my >> view, should take place at a much younger age anyhow. That's how the >> rest of the world tends to work with this. And given current >> conditions in the US, the basic student in the US should be fluent in >> Spanish as a second language before they reach puberty. And I've >> nothing against having kids, provided they have a say, learning a >> third language. Etc.) >> >> I agree about the teenage brain being ready much later in the day. >> Therein lies a problem: adults who are supposed to teach these teens >> actually are better earlier in the day and fade earlier. So, it's kind >> of a compromise one would have to look for here or some tech fix -- >> like having teachers from one timezone teach kids in another. (And, of >> course, all kids aren't alike, so with the tech for remote teaching, >> why not parlay this into suiting each class to the students and the >> teachers across the globe? Kids who are really early risers -- though >> few -- could go to early classes while the rest go later, especially >> if it's mostly/all remote.) >> >> Regards, >> >> Dan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 11 16:41:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 08:41:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: References: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007501d6cfdc$848ebcb0$8dac3610$@rainier66.com> Woohoo! Good for you Henry, well done. The local board switched to 0830 start times at the HS (it was 0745 before.) The move has been popular with the HS crowd and their parents. This year of course they can get outta bed at 0827 and make it to class on time. In some ways this was ideal that the switch should happen this year because we don?t have after school sports or band practice. One of the sticking points was that about this time of year, the students doing after-school activities would be riding bicycles home in the dark. Eh, perhaps so, but that has an easy enough solution: have the teams and band cut it off at 530 pm. I would argue further that later in December and January, the 0745 students were riding bicycles to school in the morning twilight, which is more dangerous than riding home at dusk (because traffic is more frantic that time of day (trying to get to the office on time.)) spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Sent: Friday, December 11, 2020 8:12 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] Fwd: year round school I have an unexpected and positive update on my local situation! Sports have all been cancelled here so far this year, so maybe this was an opportune time to rock the boat. Or all our letters and data finally penetrated some skulls. Either way, I?ll take the victory, which is really one for our kids. 12/11/20 (Northampton, MA) ? It?s been years in discussion?but now it?s official. Students in Northampton will start school later in the morning. The city?s school committee voted last night to move the high school start time next September to 9 a.m. Advocates have long been calling for a later start time so teenagers can get more sleep. Northampton?s elementary students will start at 8am next Fall?Middle Schoolers will start classes at 8:30. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Dec 11 20:42:58 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 12:42:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: <007501d6cfdc$848ebcb0$8dac3610$@rainier66.com> References: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com> <007501d6cfdc$848ebcb0$8dac3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <4f6d40c2-a21a-7dfd-36ac-cf2c9dfce762@pobox.com> On 2020-12-11 08:41, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > One of the sticking points was that about this time of year, the > students doing after-school activities would be riding bicycles home in > the dark.? Eh, perhaps so, but that has an easy enough solution: have > the teams and band cut it off at 530 pm. for some of us that's more than an hour after sunset, just sayin' -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:01:22 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 21:01:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: <4f6d40c2-a21a-7dfd-36ac-cf2c9dfce762@pobox.com> References: <002001d6ba8b$f6a669d0$e3f33d70$@rainier66.com> <007501d6cfdc$848ebcb0$8dac3610$@rainier66.com> <4f6d40c2-a21a-7dfd-36ac-cf2c9dfce762@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Dec 2020 at 20:46, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2020-12-11 08:41, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > One of the sticking points was that about this time of year, the > > students doing after-school activities would be riding bicycles home in > > the dark. Eh, perhaps so, but that has an easy enough solution: have > > the teams and band cut it off at 530 pm. > > for some of us that's more than an hour after sunset, just sayin' > > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ Even in London, UK, today sunset is at 3.51 pm. (and overcast and drizzly - quite depressing really). BillK From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 09:10:57 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 04:10:57 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 4:10 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > 'evolutionarily speaking' that only applies if the aggressive guy is > assassinated before he has passed his genes on to his children. Young > unmarried bucks are still being cautious, trying to gain wealth and > power. > ### Young bucks 400k years ago were not cautious - they were as aggressive as apes, which is to say, insanely aggressive by modern human standards. Apes have a very weak sense of fairness, if they have a momentary advantage they tend to use it regardless of the amount of harm they inflict on troop mates. Back when killing another man required getting up close and personal, it was dangerous to pre-emptively confront a male, regardless of how nasty he was to others. Only once men learned to shoot arrows *and* coordinate attacks by gossip, it became possible to take out the most aggressive guys safely. Of course, since men can sire children throughout their normal lifespan in the wild, being murdered at any time after puberty would reduce a man's evolutionary fitness. Also, gaining wealth is a very modern phenomenon, since material wealth was only invented in the past 15 thousand years. Gaining political power is also rather modern, since hunter-gatherer groups had always a very flat social structure, with only weakly organized leadership structure. Domestication on the other hand has been going on for at least 200k, maybe up to 400k years ago, right when humans and Neanderthals were splitting. --------------- > A hated powerful leader is more likely to have many wives and many > children. > However humans have more intelligence and quickly learn that bad > behaviour can lead to assassination and other bad consequences. That's > learned behaviour, not genes. > The usual 'nature or nurture' argument. > ### Most of the domestication selective process occurred way before there were leaders, as evidenced by changes in cranial morphology (which correlates with behavioral traits as a part of the domestication syndrome) over hundreds of thousands of years. We are most definitely not talking about "nurture" here. Domestication is a purely genetic process, with defined genetic contributions and high heritability. Wolves can be tamed but they cannot be domesticated, except by selective breeding, just as it happened 30k years ago. Humans are not yet fully domesticated, even after hundreds of thousands of years. Humans differ in their levels of fearfulness and aggression and even now there is continued selection against the highest levels of aggression, whether by prisons or by gang warfare. It's very important to differentiate between "hot" aggression, typical of apes and stupid men, and "cold" aggression, found in humans only (also we are not talking about hunting behaviors, which are found throughout the animal kingdom, and are controlled by different parts of the brain). The leader who is only hated doesn't stay as a leader for long. The successful leader may use fear to keep competition under control, and fear is not something you instill by being stupidly aggressive - it's something that takes a keen wit, empathy, and cold ruthlessness. Yes, humans first domesticated each other, and only much later domesticated dogs. BTW, being a dog-person is apparently largely genetic. Humans underwent coevolution with dogs and other domesticated animals. Humans who were fond of dogs were able to benefit more from their best new friends than dog-haters. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 09:12:59 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 04:12:59 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:26 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:04 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020-12-09 09:24, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Rafal wrote: immature individuals are less aggressive than adults. >> > Where did you get this? In humans the vast amount of violent crime is >> > done by men 25 and under. bill w >> >> But after puberty. Agreed - I suppose it depends on how you define >> 'maturity'. The last thing, I think, to mature is the brain, and that's at >> about 25, way past physical maturity of bones etc. There's a lot of time >> between puberty and maturity. (for some it's infinite!) > > ### Yes, by maturity I meant here being after puberty, which may be a bit confusing. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 09:17:48 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 04:17:48 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> References: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:33 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-08 23:19, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite > > perspective - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and > > dangerous. We know that because their skulls do not show signs > > of the domestication syndrome. [...] > > I recently enjoyed that book. > > I wonder: if you were to repeat the Bel?ev fox experiment, but selecting > for some irrelevant feature of the domestication syndrome (e.g. white > spots) rather than for tameness, would tame animals result? > > ### Probably yes, since white spots may be produced by defects in mesenchymal cell migration, and such defects often have pleiotropic effects, affecting the neuroendocrine tissues and parts of the brainstem. However, as always when you select for a proxy, the selective effect on the true target trait will be weaker, or unreliable, compared to direct selection for the target trait. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 10:01:14 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 05:01:14 -0500 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:47 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Dec 9, 2020, at 12:33 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ?On 2020-12-08 23:19, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > "The Goodness Paradox" by Richard Wrangham offers the opposite perspective > - Neanderthals were untamed, violent, reckless and dangerous. We know that > because their skulls do not show signs > > of the domestication syndrome. [...] > > > I recently enjoyed that book. > > I wonder: if you were to repeat the Bel?ev fox experiment, but selecting > for some irrelevant feature of the domestication syndrome (e.g. white > spots) rather than for tameness, would tame animals result? > > > IIRC, it?s sort of the accidental linkage between certain genes > controlling development parts of the brain with those for other traits such > as ear shape and coloration in mammals. Probably stuff on the same > chromosome. > ### It's more complicated. Being on the same chromosome results in genetic linkage. There are many cases in selective breeding where a desired trait is genetically linked to irrelevant or deleterious traits, and it may take many generations of breeding to break the linkage but this is different from the domestication syndrome. Domestication is brought about by changing a neurodevelopmental program, which involves hundreds of genes on different chromosomes. In the course of individual development an animal must behave differently depending on the phase of development it is in. In infancy and childhood it must be gentle, inquisitive, non-threatening, playful, appeasing, cute, uninterested in sex, uninterested in competing for positions in the hierarchy, to be able to avoid setting off lethally aggressive behaviors in adults, to build lasting friendships where possible, and to learn about the world. Baby animals are too physically weak to afford being mean. As they mature and gain physical strength and experience, they are able to fend for themselves, which means they have to compete for food and can also afford reproduction, which means they need to compete for mates, which means they have more to gain from being assertive and aggressive. There is a whole symphony of physical and psychological changes during puberty that coordinates hundreds of genes but there is only a small number of master switches that control the timing and general direction of the program. Sexual maturity in the sense of being able to generate gametes and to breed is a part of this process but the developmental program goes far beyond simple sexual maturity. Domestication occurs when these master switch genes are dialled back to keep the individual from developing full adult features, while still allowing sexual maturity to proceed. Since there are only a few master switches that control the transition to adulthood, mutations affecting these switches will have pleiotropic effects, regardless of chromosomal linkage. For example, we know that some features of the domestication syndrome are related to neural crest cell migration, and these cells are involved in many processes - such as producing skin coloration and setting up neuroendocrine organs. Selection for tameness means selection for reduced fear and reduced aggression, which means selection against the development of the hormonal systems that trigger aggression and fear - for example the adrenergic system which depends on the neural crest cells. This means selection for tameness selects for weaker neural crest cell migration. Since neural crest cells also control skin pigmentation, weakening of neural crest migration often produces defects of coloration, such as white spots on horses and dogs. This is why domesticated animals are often both tame and spotty. As more research is done we will know the exact loci for the desirable traits of domestication. People and nations so inclined may then decide to direct further evolution of these traits by embryo selection. Finally, peace will reign, when no more assholes are born. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 14:44:24 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 15:44:24 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Terasem Colloquium, December 2020: VIDEO Message-ID: Terasem Colloquium, December 2020: VIDEO VIDEO: Terasem Colloquium with Howard Bloom, Giulia Bassani, Yalda Mousavinia, Philippe van Nedervelde, Gabriel Rothblatt, David Brin... https://turingchurch.net/terasem-colloquium-december-2020-video-6aa0a75e50ba From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 12 15:01:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 07:01:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> Message-ID: <006601d6d097$b6eb4780$24c1d680$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2020 2:01 AM ### It's more complicated. Being on the same chromosome results in genetic linkage. There are many cases in selective breeding where a desired trait is genetically linked to irrelevant or deleterious traits, ? Finally, peace will reign, when no more assholes are born. Rafal Hi Rafal, great to see you back posting again. We have been worried about you: perhaps you caught something in the hospital and had already been frozen by now. Your posts are the most insightful I have ever seen on ExI. Welcome back, me lad! spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sat Dec 12 20:12:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 12:12:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] The ugly Neanderthal In-Reply-To: References: <5b676e90-fbd4-a2af-36e5-bfc14bbd2216@pobox.com> Message-ID: <8c43d297-97a9-94aa-1013-4b1b3061ee6f@pobox.com> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 3:33 PM Anton Sherwood wrote: >> I wonder: if you were to repeat the Bel?ev fox experiment, >> but selecting for some irrelevant feature of the domestication >> syndrome (e.g. white spots) rather than for tameness, would tame >> animals result? On 2020-12-12 01:17, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > ### Probably yes, [....] However, as always when you select for a > proxy, the selective effect on the true target trait will be weaker, > or unreliable, compared to direct selection for the target trait. Yes, one must keep in mind Goodhart's Law: When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 14 09:31:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:31:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4cb6d8a9-9d2d-7af7-d732-3c75d17ef477@zaiboc.net> I just read this, and I'm appalled! You make your kids go to school at 7:30 - 8:30?? That strikes me as abuse. Sleep deprivation is a form of torture, is it not? I always used to have real difficulty getting to school for 9:00 when I was a kid. Schools shouldn't even be open for business before 10, imo. I would have dreams where I was going to school, presumably my brain's way of fulfilling the requirement to get up abominably early, while avoiding the need to actually do it, allowing me to stay asleep. I shudder to think what american kids dreams are like. -- Ben Zaiboc From sparge at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:08:04 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (sparge) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 08:08:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Chernobyl fungus could shield astronauts from cosmic radiation Message-ID: https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/radiation-on-mars-fungus?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 A recent study tested how well the fungi species Cladosporium sphaerospermum blocked cosmic radiation aboard the International Space Station. - Radiation is one of the biggest threats to astronauts' safety during long-term missions. - C. sphaerospermum is known to thrive in high-radiation environments through a process called radiosynthesis. - The results of the study suggest that a thin layer of the fungus could serve as an effective shield against cosmic radiation for astronauts. - When astronauts return to the moon or travel to Mars, how will they shield themselves against high levels of cosmic radiation? A recent experiment aboard the International Space Station suggests a surprising solution: a radiation-eating fungus, which could be used as a self-replicating shield against gamma radiation in space. The fungus is called Cladosporium sphaerospermum, an extremophile species that thrives in high-radiation areas like the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant. For C. sphaerospermum, radiation isn't a threat ? it's food. That's because the fungus is able to convert gamma radiation into chemical energy through a process called radiosynthesis. (Think of it like photosynthesis, but swap out sunlight for radiation.) The radiotrophic fungus performs radiosynthesis by using melanin ? the same pigment that gives color to our skin, hair and eyes ? to convert X- and gamma rays into chemical energy. Scientists don't fully understand this process yet. But the study notes that it's "believed that large amounts of melanin in the cell walls of these fungi mediate electron-transfer and thus allow for a net energy gain." Additionally, the fungus is self-replicating, meaning astronauts would potentially be able to "grow" new radiation shielding on deep-space missions, instead of having to rely on a costly and complicated interplanetary supply chain. Still, the researchers weren't sure whether C. sphaerospermum would survive on the space station. Nils J.H. Averesch, a co-author of the study published on the preprint server bioRxiv, told SYFY WIRE: "While on Earth, most sources of radiation are gamma- and/or X-rays; radiation in space and on Mars (also known as GCR or galactic cosmic radiation) is of a completely different kind and involves highly energetic particles, mostly protons. This radiation is even more destructive than X- and gamma-rays, so not even survival of the fungus on the ISS was a given." To test the "radio-resistance" of C. sphaerospermum in space, petri dishes containing a .06-inch layer of the fungus were exposed to cosmic radiation aboard the ISS. Dishes containing no fungus were exposed, too. The results showed that the fungus cut radiation levels by about 2 percent. Extrapolating these results, the researchers estimated that a roughly 8-inch layer of C. sphaerospermum "could largely negate the annual dose-equivalent of the radiation environment on the surface of Mars." That would be a significant benefit to astronauts. After all, an astronaut who is one year into a Mars mission would have been exposed to roughly 66 times more radiation than the average person on Earth. To be sure, the researchers said more research is needed, and that C. sphaerospermum would likely be used in combination with other radiation-shielding technology aboard spacecraft. But the findings highlight how relatively simple biotechnologies may offer outsized benefits on upcoming space missions. "Often nature has already developed blindly obvious yet surprisingly effective solutions to engineering and design problems faced as humankind evolves ? C. sphaerospermum and melanin could thus prove to be invaluable in providing adequate protection of explorers on future missions to the Moon, Mars and beyond," the researchers wrote. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gadersd at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:04:32 2020 From: gadersd at gmail.com (Cody Cox) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 10:04:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: year round school In-Reply-To: <4cb6d8a9-9d2d-7af7-d732-3c75d17ef477@zaiboc.net> References: , <4cb6d8a9-9d2d-7af7-d732-3c75d17ef477@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <24FEBF0E-F2F4-40ED-AEF1-EAC7C87D3CFA@hxcore.ol> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 17:33:22 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 09:33:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Chernobyl fungus could shield astronauts from cosmic radiation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, are they going to get funding to actually test that 8-inch thick layer? Some quick calculations here suggest it'd need 12 inches, but that's assuming 0.06 inches blocks exactly 2 percent; if 'ts 2 and a fraction, then perhaps only 8 inches are needed. More importantly, what feedstock is needed for the fungus to grow? It gets its mass from somewhere. And, does the fungus continue to give its protection once it stops growing? Does the fungus die (as in, needs less containment) once it stops growing, or is the radiation it absorbs in this use case enough to sustain it? On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:10 AM sparge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/radiation-on-mars-fungus?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 > > A recent study tested how well the fungi species Cladosporium > sphaerospermum blocked cosmic radiation aboard the International Space > Station. > > - Radiation is one of the biggest threats to astronauts' safety during > long-term missions. > - C. sphaerospermum is known to thrive in high-radiation environments > through a process called radiosynthesis. > - The results of the study suggest that a thin layer of the fungus > could serve as an effective shield against cosmic radiation for astronauts. > - When astronauts return to the moon or travel to Mars, how will they > shield themselves against high levels of cosmic radiation? A recent > experiment aboard the International Space Station suggests a surprising > solution: a radiation-eating fungus, which could be used as a > self-replicating shield against gamma radiation in space. > > The fungus is called Cladosporium sphaerospermum, an extremophile species > that thrives in high-radiation areas like the Chernobyl Nuclear Power > Plant. For C. sphaerospermum, radiation isn't a threat ? it's food. That's > because the fungus is able to convert gamma radiation into chemical energy > through a process called radiosynthesis. (Think of it like photosynthesis, > but swap out sunlight for radiation.) > > The radiotrophic fungus performs radiosynthesis by using melanin ? the > same pigment that gives color to our skin, hair and eyes ? to convert X- > and gamma rays into chemical energy. Scientists don't fully understand this > process yet. But the study notes that it's "believed that large amounts of > melanin in the cell walls of these fungi mediate electron-transfer and thus > allow for a net energy gain." > > Additionally, the fungus is self-replicating, meaning astronauts would > potentially be able to "grow" new radiation shielding on deep-space > missions, instead of having to rely on a costly and complicated > interplanetary supply chain. > > Still, the researchers weren't sure whether C. sphaerospermum would > survive on the space station. Nils J.H. Averesch, a co-author of the study > published on the preprint server bioRxiv, told SYFY WIRE: > > "While on Earth, most sources of radiation are gamma- and/or X-rays; > radiation in space and on Mars (also known as GCR or galactic cosmic > radiation) is of a completely different kind and involves highly energetic > particles, mostly protons. This radiation is even more destructive than X- > and gamma-rays, so not even survival of the fungus on the ISS was a given." > > To test the "radio-resistance" of C. sphaerospermum in space, petri dishes > containing a .06-inch layer of the fungus were exposed to cosmic radiation > aboard the ISS. Dishes containing no fungus were exposed, too. The results > showed that the fungus cut radiation levels by about 2 percent. > > Extrapolating these results, the researchers estimated that a roughly > 8-inch layer of C. sphaerospermum "could largely negate the annual > dose-equivalent of the radiation environment on the surface of Mars." That > would be a significant benefit to astronauts. After all, an astronaut who > is one year into a Mars mission would have been exposed to roughly 66 times > more radiation than the average person on Earth. > > To be sure, the researchers said more research is needed, and that C. > sphaerospermum would likely be used in combination with other > radiation-shielding technology aboard spacecraft. But the findings > highlight how relatively simple biotechnologies may offer outsized benefits > on upcoming space missions. > > "Often nature has already developed blindly obvious yet surprisingly > effective solutions to engineering and design problems faced as humankind > evolves ? C. sphaerospermum and melanin could thus prove to be invaluable > in providing adequate protection of explorers on future missions to the > Moon, Mars and beyond," the researchers wrote. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Dec 14 18:30:25 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 10:30:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Chernobyl fungus could shield astronauts from cosmic radiation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5caa902a-f4a9-9958-ffe8-4d6ea5eec68f@pobox.com> On 2020-12-14 05:08, sparge via extropy-chat wrote: > https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/radiation-on-mars-fungus > * The results of the study suggest that a thin layer of the fungus > could serve as an effective shield against cosmic radiation for > astronauts. Is anyone else reminded of Cordwainer Smith, "Scanners Live in Vain"? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 14 23:28:16 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 15:28:16 -0800 Subject: [ExI] changes to education from covid Message-ID: <003901d6d270$cd398f80$67acae80$@rainier66.com> Perhaps one of the biggest lasting technological changes brought about by the shutdown is a forced adoption of online learning. A laptop isn't necessary: a 300 dollar ChromeBook will do: it has a camera in it for controlled testing, a microphone, a receiver for the broadband available free from the school. The county supplied those, not the state, not the feds. Suddenly educating the next generation took a quantum leap downward in cost, because real-time instructors are no longer necessary, even for grading purposes really. Software is proving to be adequate, even if not ideal, for grading written essay-style assignments. It isn't great at evaluating content, but one might argue that carbon-based teachers are not necessarily any good at that either. Plenty of students have discovered how easy it is to arrange an online meeting to get a project done. I myself participated in one, a software project for the local superintendent, using six selected students. It came together quickly and efficiently. We may never go back fully to face to face meetings. New content isn't needed. Look at how much excellent material is available free from Khan Academy. A student can get one hell of a good primary education just by exhausting that material, and every bit of it can be done from home with a minimum of bandwidth. Now everyone on the planet has access to that. Covid revolutionized education. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 00:27:17 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 18:27:17 -0600 Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! Message-ID: Got the results of all of my heart tests today: never had a heart attack! Can you believe that? Of course you can. Incompetent first cardiologist - of course he had a lot less data, but he scared the HELL out of me. So what do I have? Weak heart. I need a low heart rate, low blood pressure. Was dramatically lowered on the Synthroid (which raises your metabolism and strains the heart.) When that really kicks in I will feel better and have an appetite, I am told. I have forgotten what one feels like. When you go in expecting to be told the odds of living more years and get a complete diagnostic reversal, it's more like relief than elation. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 15 01:00:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:00:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006d01d6d27d$a6e02260$f4a06720$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Monday, December 14, 2020 4:27 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! >?Got the results of all of my heart tests today: never had a heart attack! >?Can you believe that? Of course you can. Incompetent first cardiologist - of course he had a lot less data, but he scared the HELL out of me? Ja, sure BillW, but look at it another way. Why would you want hell to stay in you? If you set up a graph with good on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal, integrate from zero to infinity good dt, the result is positive. Translation for non-calculus hipsters: this whole misadventure is really a good thing, if you get your attitude right. Your doctor scared the hell outta yas. But? it caused you to look within, and decide what is important and what isn?t. If you had never gotten the bad news, you wouldn?t have the good: you didn?t have a heart attack. Cool! In the meantime, you decide what is important, what isn?t, put your priorities in order, you?re gonna live, with your life-closet cleaned out and tidy, all is good. It is a lesson to the rest of us: we didn?t have a heart attack either. Cool! Besides that: you already know what you will need to do if you ever do have a heart attack: you are pre-disastered. You already know what meds you will need to take and what they will do. Also: it lowers the risk of getting an incompetent doctor in the future: what are the chances of the same guy getting TWO quacks? Very small. So your first one kinda helped you, depending on how you look at it. Optimism, me lad! Another thing: good chance you have religious friends somewhere. They were probably praying for you. Now of course, that is negated by the fact that for unbelievers, they were talking to the ceiling, but hey, that?s the known disadvantage of being a flaming atheist. But your believer friends are still nice: such kindhearted souls they are. >?So what do I have? Weak heart. I need a low heart rate, low blood pressure. Was dramatically lowered on the Synthroid (which raises your metabolism and strains the heart.) When that really kicks in I will feel better and have an appetite, I am told. I have forgotten what one feels like? Ja, your bride will be pleased with that. You might even want to eat more as well. >?When you go in expecting to be told the odds of living more years and get a complete diagnostic reversal, it's more like relief than elation. bill w Well ja, of course. That hasta really be crummy to have a doctor tell ya to repent of your sins. I don?t want to do that. I really like my sins. Hell I don?t even have many of them. So I protect them and watch over my few remaining ones. So now to have a better doctor say OK BillW, never mind, go back to your sinnin? ways, that hasta feel good. Best wishes to you, lad. This is the best news I have heard all week, and I wasn?t even the one staring into the abyss. May you learn much and post for many years to come. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 15 04:15:27 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:15:27 -0800 Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <006d01d6d27d$a6e02260$f4a06720$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d6d27d$a6e02260$f4a06720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001a01d6d298$ebb72a80$c3257f80$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com Subject: RE: [ExI] damn doctors! From: extropy-chat > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! >>?Got the results of all of my heart tests today: never had a heart attack! >>?Incompetent first cardiologist -?he scared the HELL out of me? >?Ja, sure BillW, but look at it another way. Why would you want the hell to stay in you? ?spike And furthermore? Christmas is a time of joy. It can be that even if one isn?t a believer. It is for me, and I ain?t. So? BillW, Merry Christmas buddy. While I am at it: Happy New Year. May your 2021 be better than 2020. The same to the rest a yas too. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 15 04:45:42 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 20:45:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! Message-ID: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >?So? BillW, Merry Christmas buddy. While I am at it: Happy New Year. May your 2021 be better than 2020. The same to the rest a yas too. spike Speaking of damn doctors? how many here are planning to get the vaccine in the next month? Two months? Four? I will hold back and let the high risk people get theirs first. I think I already had covid, so I don?t want to take anyone else?s away. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 04:58:53 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 23:58:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:46 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I will hold back and let the high risk people get theirs first. I think I > already had covid, so I don?t want to take anyone else?s away. > I doubt I could get it any time soon even if I wanted to, but I plan on letting the guinea pigs work out the kinks before I go near this one. While I believe mRNA tech should be pretty safe; it's still a completely novel approach in humans. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:40:54 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 02:40:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] After the Great Filter Message-ID: A recent article in Communications Earth & Environment: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00057-8 attempts to model the likelihood of Earth-like planets to remain continuously habitable for 3 billions of years and comes to the conclusion that the overall success rate would be very low (0.0145). I have doubts about the approach, in part because I don't really understand how the results were generated and I am too lazy to read the Methods section where the assumptions are explained. Well, actually I skimmed through the methods and I think one assumption is a major blooper - that 3 By of continuous habitability are needed for intelligent life to evolve. That really doesn't make sense. The whole modeling effort seems like trying to squeeze way too much knowledge out of way too little data. Or maybe I am not sophisticated to see the general applicability of the method? Still, the article's conclusion is probably correct - even on planets blessed with all the right ingredients there is going to be a lot of instability, due to various instantaneous perturbations (asteroids, supervolcanism) and the interplay of long-term forcings. We know that complex life on Earth was reset multiple times, so it's plausible that the same is happening everywhere. Life-sustaining planets most likely all have plate tectonics, since this is a very powerful stabilizing mechanism without which the chemical composition of the atmosphere would almost certainly degrade continuously until water is lost (Mars) or a runaway heating occurs (Venus). But plate tectonics implies mantle convection and convection is likely to produce plumes which trigger supervolcanism. So every living planet is most likely primed to erase large animals on a regular basis. I do not believe that dinosaurs or the theriodonts were in some substantial way more primitive than modern mammals - most likely they were functionally equivalent to the bulk of modern mammals and the only reason they did not give rise to intelligent forms is because they got creamed by climate perturbations too early. Intelligence most likely appears randomly with some reasonable probability once you have large animals running around long enough - but exactly how long is the average time to first evolved sophont is unclear. Probably not less than 100 million years (Myr), since there were two epochs on Earth when large animals evolved uninterrupted, more or less, for similar periods (the above-mentioned theriodonts and dinosaurs) and still did not manage to evolve intelligence. If we are a lucky throw of the dice, and the average time to intelligence is e.g. 500 Myr, then even on lucky planets with all the right ingredients for life there would never be intelligent life because random resets due to supervolcanism would happen too frequently. Too much uncertainty, too little data. Anyway, my guess, which I mentioned here before, is that Earth already passed through the Great Filters. We are just a couple of decades away from spreading to other planets. I don't believe that superintelligent AI is a filter, at least not a filter preventing intelligence survival - even if all humans perish in the robot wars, intelligence of the inorganic variety will still survive and spread. We are on the last millionth part of the last sprint of the longest race in our galaxy, the race to space-colonizing intelligent life. I sure hope we don't trip up at the last possible moment. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 12:22:55 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:22:55 +0000 Subject: [ExI] China opens giant radio telescope to replace Arecibo Message-ID: Closer to home, China has said it will accept requests in 2021 from foreign scientists wishing to carry out measurements. "Our scientific committee aims to make FAST increasingly open to the international community," said Wang. Quote: December 15, 2020 China to open giant telescope to international scientists by Ludovic Ehret Nestled among the mountains in southwest China, the world's largest radio telescope signals Beijing's ambitions as a global centre for scientific research. The Five-hundred-metre Aperture Spherical Telescope (FAST)?the only significant instrument of its kind after the collapse of another telescope in Puerto Rico this month?is about to open its doors for foreign astronomers to use, hoping to attract the world's top scientific talent. The world's second-largest radio telescope, at the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico, was destroyed when its suspended 900-tonne receiver platform came loose and plunged 140 metres (450 feet) onto the radio dish below. -------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 15 13:38:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 05:38:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] re-post: covid revolutionized education Message-ID: <004001d6d2e7$92ec5b10$b8c51130$@rainier66.com> I heard gmail crashed yesterday so this post didn't go to gmail users. Retry: Perhaps one of the biggest lasting technological changes brought about by the shutdown is a forced adoption of online learning. A laptop isn't necessary: a 300 dollar ChromeBook will do: it has a camera in it for controlled testing, a microphone, a receiver for the broadband available free from the school. The county supplied those, not the state, not the feds. Suddenly educating the next generation took a quantum leap downward in cost, because real-time instructors are no longer necessary, even for grading purposes really. Software is proving to be adequate, even if not ideal, for grading written essay-style assignments. It isn't great at evaluating content, but one might argue that carbon-based teachers are not necessarily any good at that either. Plenty of students have discovered how easy it is to arrange an online meeting to get a project done. I myself participated in one, a software project for the local superintendent, using six selected students. It came together quickly and efficiently. We may never go back fully to face to face meetings. New content isn't needed. Look at how much excellent material is available free from Khan Academy. A student can get one hell of a good primary education just by exhausting that material, and every bit of it can be done from home with a minimum of bandwidth. Now everyone on the planet has access to that. Covid revolutionized education. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:13:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 08:13:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] re-post: covid revolutionized education In-Reply-To: <004001d6d2e7$92ec5b10$b8c51130$@rainier66.com> References: <004001d6d2e7$92ec5b10$b8c51130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Theme of Spike's post about online education: teachers will become dinosaurs. Teachers are not necessary for learning. I think there are quite a few assumptions in those words above. I'll probably need help in airing them out. More coffee, please? bill w On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 7:41 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I heard gmail crashed yesterday so this post didn?t go to gmail users. > Retry: > > > > Perhaps one of the biggest lasting technological changes brought about by > the shutdown is a forced adoption of online learning. A laptop isn?t > necessary: a 300 dollar ChromeBook will do: it has a camera in it for > controlled testing, a microphone, a receiver for the broadband available > free from the school. The county supplied those, not the state, not the > feds. > > Suddenly educating the next generation took a quantum leap downward in > cost, because real-time instructors are no longer necessary, even for > grading purposes really. Software is proving to be adequate, even if not > ideal, for grading written essay-style assignments. It isn?t great at > evaluating content, but one might argue that carbon-based teachers are not > necessarily any good at that either. > > Plenty of students have discovered how easy it is to arrange an online > meeting to get a project done. I myself participated in one, a software > project for the local superintendent, using six selected students. It came > together quickly and efficiently. We may never go back fully to face to > face meetings. > > New content isn?t needed. Look at how much excellent material is > available free from Khan Academy. A student can get one hell of a good > primary education just by exhausting that material, and every bit of it can > be done from home with a minimum of bandwidth. Now everyone on the planet > has access to that. > > Covid revolutionized education. > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:54:39 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 14:54:39 +0000 Subject: [ExI] re-post: covid revolutionized education In-Reply-To: References: <004001d6d2e7$92ec5b10$b8c51130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 14:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Theme of Spike's post about online education: teachers will become dinosaurs. Teachers are not necessary for learning. > > I think there are quite a few assumptions in those words above. I'll probably need help in airing them out. More coffee, please? > > bill w > Only if you consider 'learning' to be something abstract. For all civilisations, teachers are needed to create productive (compliant?) members of that civ. Call it indoctrination, if you like, but a civilisation doesn't want their children to become revolutionaries and upset the current power structures. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:41:49 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 15:41:49 +0000 Subject: [ExI] After the Great Filter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 07:45, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat wrote: > > A recent article in Communications Earth & Environment: > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00057-8 > > attempts to model the likelihood of Earth-like planets to remain continuously habitable for 3 billions of years and comes to the conclusion that the overall success rate would be very low (0.0145). I have doubts about the approach, in part because I don't really understand how the results were generated and I am too lazy to read the Methods section where the assumptions are explained. Well, actually I skimmed through the methods and I think one assumption is a major blooper - that 3 By of continuous habitability are needed for intelligent life to evolve. That really doesn't make sense. The whole modeling effort seems like trying to squeeze way too much knowledge out of way too little data. Or maybe I am not sophisticated to see the general applicability of the method? > > Still, the article's conclusion is probably correct - even on planets blessed with all the right ingredients there is going to be a lot of instability, due to various instantaneous perturbations (asteroids, supervolcanism) and the interplay of long-term forcings. We know that complex life on Earth was reset multiple times, so it's plausible that the same is happening everywhere. Life-sustaining planets most likely all have plate tectonics, since this is a very powerful stabilizing mechanism without which the chemical composition of the atmosphere would almost certainly degrade continuously until water is lost (Mars) or a runaway heating occurs (Venus). But plate tectonics implies mantle convection and convection is likely to produce plumes which trigger supervolcanism. So every living planet is most likely primed to erase large animals on a regular basis. > > I do not believe that dinosaurs or the theriodonts were in some substantial way more primitive than modern mammals - most likely they were functionally equivalent to the bulk of modern mammals and the only reason they did not give rise to intelligent forms is because they got creamed by climate perturbations too early. > > Intelligence most likely appears randomly with some reasonable probability once you have large animals running around long enough - but exactly how long is the average time to first evolved sophont is unclear. Probably not less than 100 million years (Myr), since there were two epochs on Earth when large animals evolved uninterrupted, more or less, for similar periods (the above-mentioned theriodonts and dinosaurs) and still did not manage to evolve intelligence. If we are a lucky throw of the dice, and the average time to intelligence is e.g. 500 Myr, then even on lucky planets with all the right ingredients for life there would never be intelligent life because random resets due to supervolcanism would happen too frequently. > > Too much uncertainty, too little data. Anyway, my guess, which I mentioned here before, is that Earth already passed through the Great Filters. We are just a couple of decades away from spreading to other planets. I don't believe that superintelligent AI is a filter, at least not a filter preventing intelligence survival - even if all humans perish in the robot wars, intelligence of the inorganic variety will still survive and spread. > > We are on the last millionth part of the last sprint of the longest race in our galaxy, the race to space-colonizing intelligent life. I sure hope we don't trip up at the last possible moment. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ This article implies that not only the habitability of Earth depended greatly on random chance, but Evolution itself did as well. Every so often, random events wiped out great swathes of species from the earth. The idea that humans are the peak of a steady step by step improving evolution is just not right. It is more like evolution is making the best of a bad job, making do with what was left after disasters struck. If there are other habitable planets out there evolution probably took a rather different path. I quite fancy being an evolved Tyrannosaurus Rex, after evolving bigger arms of course. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 17:07:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:07:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] re-post: covid revolutionized education In-Reply-To: References: <004001d6d2e7$92ec5b10$b8c51130$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: but a civilisation doesn't want their children to become revolutionaries and upset the current power structures. BillK *Yep - and that's why we sanitize our history books to show that we are the good guys. Which is difficult given the stupid wars we started in the 20th century, which IS indoctrination and propaganda. bill* On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 8:58 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 14:18, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Theme of Spike's post about online education: teachers will become > dinosaurs. Teachers are not necessary for learning. > > > > I think there are quite a few assumptions in those words above. I'll > probably need help in airing them out. More coffee, please? > > > > bill w > > > > > Only if you consider 'learning' to be something abstract. For all > civilisations, teachers are needed to create productive (compliant?) > members of that civ. Call it indoctrination, if you like, but a > civilisation doesn't want their children to become revolutionaries and > upset the current power structures. > > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 17:21:26 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 17:21:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 04:50, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Speaking of damn doctors? how many here are planning to get the vaccine in the next month? Two months? Four? > > I will hold back and let the high risk people get theirs first. I think I already had covid, so I don?t want to take anyone else?s away. > > spike > _______________________________________________ The UK is warning that some people might have a severe allergic reaction to the COVID vaccine. Quote: In the UK, drugs regulator the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) last week said that people with a history of ?significant? allergic reactions should avoid the jab. It issued the warning after two NHS staff members who were given doses suffered an allergic reaction. Both workers, who have a ?strong past history of allergic reactions? and carry an adrenaline auto-injector with them, recovered after receiving the appropriate treatment. Following the incident, MHRA chief Dr June Raine said in a statement: ?Any person with a history of anaphylaxis to a vaccine, medicine or food should not receive the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. A second dose should not be given to anyone who has experienced anaphylaxis following administration of the first dose of this vaccine. ------------------------ Many people nowadays seem to have allergies and carry an EpiPen at all times. This reaction could affect a significant number of people. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 18:06:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:06:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <001a01d6d298$ebb72a80$c3257f80$@rainier66.com> References: <006d01d6d27d$a6e02260$f4a06720$@rainier66.com> <001a01d6d298$ebb72a80$c3257f80$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Also: it lowers the risk of getting an incompetent doctor in the future: what are the chances of the same guy getting TWO quacks? Very small. So your first one kinda helped you, depending on how you look at it. spike Thanks for a thoughtful and friendly reply. I can count friends on one hand and you are one of them. Where shall I start with a list of incompetent doctors? Two orthopedic men who missed the diagnosis of tight IT band? (my chiro nailed that one). I could go on. I don't blame the first cardio. He did what his data said do: give me pills that made it much harder to have an attack. I asked the current one why my hematocrit and hemoglobin were low and he said that was outside his field!! Eat some meat, I say. I never had a bucket list. If I were rich I'd be flying all over the world: to hear the bells in Kyoto for a start; British Museum (been to the Louvre), many more. My main interests are all fulfilled: enough money for books, cds, seeds and garden equipment, speciality foods. I have a top Yamaha Clavinova that sounds better than the STeinway copy I sold, and am teaching piano for the first time. Not too many of my options outside of physical work are limited. Even that might improve depending on if I can get my blood pressure medicine reduced. Being retired for over 20 years has some consequences: one is that I am not up in some things I had to be up on while teaching, which is why I cannot explain this one further: People tend to fall into two categories: inner-directed and outer-directed. (the obvious qualifier here: some people will be inner-directed about some things and outer-directed about other things depending on their experience). The first are self-sufficient and need little direction. If they think they need direction, they get it. They ask intelligent questions and so on. The outer-directed are, relatively speaking, helpless. They look to others to tell them what to do: parents, teachers, doctors and so on. What I can't tell you is if these latter people can be changed. They would suffer greatly in a system where they had to learn things by themselves and only an internet to learn from. The inner-directed would get feedback on his efforts, never assuming that they are always correct. The outer people might just do whatever comes to their heads and let it go at that, though the reverse might be true: they ask for help constantly and never assume that anything they do is OK. The future of medicine and of teaching is crafting one's efforts toward the uniqueness of that person. My cardio guy is puzzled that I am so strongly reacting to a drug whose dosage is just a beginner amount that is raised and raised in time. Answer? I am a hypersensitive person who reacts more strongly to any kind of thing than over 90% of humanity. Conversely, anything that tries to lower my sensitivity is fought hard: Taking downers is an experiment in frustration: I can drink vast quantities of alcohol and drive home safely. Opiates have a hard time easing my pain, And so on. But medicine is now not able to take these things into consideration. (well, yeah, of course it can -it can take my word for it - now let's have a great big laugh!) Ditto teaching: it's not that people have different learning styles;that has been rather disproven. But the atmosphere in which they learn can have a strong effect on their ability to learn, their eagerness to learn, whether they will do the homework, and so on. Mostly we don't know what these variables are, and we will need to if they continue distance learning. Ya? bill w On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:18 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > *Subject:* RE: [ExI] damn doctors! > > > > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] damn doctors! > > > > >>?Got the results of all of my heart tests today: never had a heart > attack! > > > > >>?Incompetent first cardiologist -?he scared the HELL out of me? > > > > >?Ja, sure BillW, but look at it another way. Why would you want the hell > to stay in you? ?spike > > > > > > And furthermore? Christmas is a time of joy. It can be that even if one > isn?t a believer. It is for me, and I ain?t. So? BillW, Merry Christmas > buddy. While I am at it: Happy New Year. May your 2021 be better than > 2020. The same to the rest a yas too. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 18:09:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:09:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Legend of the Gipper In-Reply-To: <2A.96.44171.2F2F8DF5@an.mta2vrest.cc.prd.sparkpost> References: <2A.96.44171.2F2F8DF5@an.mta2vrest.cc.prd.sparkpost> Message-ID: Reaganomics: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Paul Krugman Date: Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:31 AM Subject: Legend of the Gipper To: The truth about Ronald Reagan?s economic record. View in browser |nytimes.com Continue reading the main story <#m_1834925223512803342_a11y-skip-ad-marquee> [image: Paul Krugman] December 15, 2020 Bettmann Archive/Getty Images [image: Author Headshot] By Paul Krugman Opinion Columnist Programming note: This newsletter will be off for the holidays for the next two weeks. I?ll see you in your inbox again on Jan. 5. Today?s column was about the Republican rejection of facts, which I argued really began under President Ronald Reagan. In passing I said a bit about the legend of the Reagan economy, which plays an outsized role in conservative economic doctrine to this day. And I thought it might be interesting to talk some more both about the reality of Reaganomics and the relevance of that reality to possibilities over the next few years. First of all, why are Republicans still talking so much about Reagan? The answer is that the core of modern conservative economic doctrine is the assertion that cutting taxes, especially on the wealthy, does wonderful things for the economy. And they hold up Reagan?s economic record as proof of that doctrine?s truth. Why use an example that is decades in the past, rather than a more recent success story? The answer is that there aren?t any recent success stories. Since 1990 claims that tax cuts will generate huge booms ? and that tax hikes will lead to disaster ? have belly-flopped again and again. President Bill Clinton?s tax increases in 1993 didn?t cause the recession just about everyone on the right predicted; President George W. Bush?s tax cuts didn?t produce a ?Bush boom.? The Trump tax cut didn?t deliver anything like the promised results. Continue reading the main story <#m_1834925223512803342_a11y-skip-0> ADVERTISEMENT In 2011 Gov. Sam Brownback of Kansas cut taxes sharply, promising that this would lead to a surge in growth. It didn?t . At the same time, California raised taxes; conservatives declared that this would be ?economic suicide .? It wasn?t. So it?s back to Reagan. But was the Reagan story really all that great? Right-wing politicians think so ? but this is based on what they?ve heard from people in their intellectual bubble. A few years back, for example, Sen. Rand Paul made what he thought was a telling point : ?When was the last time in our country we created millions of jobs? It was under Ronald Reagan ?? Actually, more jobs were created under Clinton. So where does the legend of Reagan come from? Partly, of course, from pretending that the Clinton-era boom never happened ? which is easier because of the ?hack gap ?: Conservatives and their media outlets constantly harp on their preferred story lines, in a way liberals don?t. But it also involves a bait-and-switch on timing, essentially pretending that Reagan?s presidency didn?t start until the end of the severe recession that occupied most of his first two years in office. Continue reading the main story <#m_1834925223512803342_a11y-skip-1> ADVERTISEMENT How much difference does this make? If you look at G.D.P. over the whole of Reagan?s time in office, it grew at an annual rate of 3.38 percent ? compared with 3.33 percent under President Jimmy Carter and 3.68 percent under Clinton. Given the limitations of economic statistics, which I like to describe as a peculiarly boring form of science fiction, this basically amounts to no difference. But if you start at the bottom of the 1981-2 recession, the rate of growth in the rest of the Reagan years was 4.7 percent. Morning in America! The truth is that Reagan doesn?t deserve blame for the 1981-2 recession ? but he doesn?t deserve credit for the subsequent recovery, either. Instead, it was all about the Federal Reserve. The Fed sharply raised interest rates in 1980 in an attempt to bring inflation down, causing a severe recession; then it relented in the summer of 1982 and the economy snapped back. That snapback led to two years of rapid growth, as unused capacity was brought back online ? and tax-cutting conservatives have been falsely claiming credit for that growth ever since. So what?s the relevance of all this to where we are now? I?ve been arguing for a while that the pandemic is playing an economic role that, in a peculiar way, is similar to that of the high interest rates of the early 1980s, and that there will be a period of very fast growth once the vaccine lets us go back to more or less normal life. So, do you think conservatives will give President-elect Joe Biden credit for a new Morning in America? That was a rhetorical question. Continue reading the main story <#m_1834925223512803342_a11y-skip-2> ADVERTISEMENT Quick Hits The audacity of slope . But Dean Baker, who I respect, has doubts . The real Morning in America, such as it was, was the productivity surge in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Reagan didn?t jump-start growth, but he helped break labor unions , which was an important cause of rising inequality. Feedback If you?re enjoying what you?re reading, please consider recommending it to friends. They can sign up here . If you want to share your thoughts on an item in this week?s newsletter or on the newsletter in general, please email me at krugman-newsletter at nytimes.com . Facing the Music A song about intellectual propertyYouTube If everything is free , how do we measure growth? (A real question.) IN THE TIMES The People Who Actually Had a Pretty Great Year It?s not just the filthy rich. Much of America?s professional class has quietly, if a bit guiltily, been doing just fine, despite 2020. By Eve Peyser [image: Article Image] It?s Not Just You: Picking a Health Insurance Plan Is Really Hard Most Americans make poor choices. So do most professional insurance brokers, a new study finds. But robots may help. By Margot Sanger-Katz [image: Article Image] Inside the Right-Wing Media Bubble, Where the Myth of a Trump Win Lives On The Electoral College has affirmed Biden?s victory. That doesn?t mean that Trump-friendly news outlets have accepted it. By Jeremy W. Peters [image: Article Image] Read the full Opinion report here. Continue reading the main story <#m_1834925223512803342_a11y-skip-3> Need help? Review our newsletter help page or contact us for assistance. You received this email because you signed up for Paul Krugman from The New York Times. To stop receiving these emails, unsubscribe or manage your email preferences . Subscribe to The Times Get The New York Times app Connect with us on: [image: facebook] [image: twitter] [image: instagram] Change Your Email Privacy Policy Contact Us California Notices The New York Times Company. 620 Eighth Avenue New York, NY 10018 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 15 19:00:03 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:00:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Fwd: Legend of the Gipper In-Reply-To: References: <2A.96.44171.2F2F8DF5@an.mta2vrest.cc.prd.sparkpost> Message-ID: Paul Krugman wrote: > A few years back, for example, Sen. Rand Paul made what he thought > was a telling point: ?When was the last time in our country we > created millions of jobs? It was under Ronald Reagan ?? Actually, > more jobs were created under Clinton. That was the period of the peace dividend, and of divided government. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 19:49:58 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:49:58 -0600 Subject: [ExI] words et al Message-ID: I don't know of a word lover who doesn't love quotes. Many thousands of them express ideas in a new or more expressive way. I feel the same way about similes, metaphors, oxymoronic statements, and such. So - Dr. Mardy Grothe is the author of several books on these topics and I have read all of them and can recommend them. Here are a few of his titles: I Never Metaphor I didn't Like Oxymoronica Metaphors Be With You Neverisms (quotes beginning with the word 'Never') These books are not primarily just lists. He does a lot of writing in between metaphors or quotes and is an excellent and entertaining writer (and a fellow psychologist, even though he is clinical and not my area). Even if you have read him, please check out his latest books and web site. You can even offer him your personal favorites or quotes and metaphors you invented. He will respond, at least at first - busy man. He researches all quotes for authentication and notes which are falsely attributed. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 00:47:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 16:47:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat >...and carry an adrenaline auto-injector with them...BillK _______________________________________________ BillK, I do confess this has nothing to do with your post, my apologies, but... that whole adrenaline auto-injector business just sounds like fun. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 02:01:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 20:01:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: BillK, I do confess this has nothing to do with your post, my apologies, but... that whole adrenaline auto-injector business just sounds like fun. spike Spoken like a true latent druggie bill w On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 6:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > > >...and carry an adrenaline auto-injector with them...BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > BillK, I do confess this has nothing to do with your post, my apologies, > but... that whole adrenaline auto-injector business just sounds like fun. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 03:32:15 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 19:32:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! >>?BillK, I do confess this has nothing to do with your post, my apologies, but... that whole adrenaline auto-injector business just sounds like fun. spike >?Spoken like a true latent druggie bill w No way Jose! That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count. It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. It?s more analogous to guzzling a pot of coffee in one hour, that kinda thing: fair game. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 12:19:43 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:19:43 +0000 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 03:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > No way Jose! That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count. > It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. > It?s more analogous to guzzling a pot of coffee in one hour, that kinda thing: fair game. > > spike > _______________________________________________ Sorry Spike, but the adrenaline auto-injector isn't much fun. EpiPen is used to treat severe allergic reactions (anaphylaxis) to insect stings or bites, foods, drugs, and other allergens. (By severe they mean risk of death if not treated immediately). After injection, emergency medical attention will still be required. Injecting the adrenaline when healthy, just for fun, is usually a bad experience. Of course people have done this and lived to tell the tale. Sometimes as a precaution when they thought they might be having an allergic reaction. The effects are what you would expect from a massive adrenaline overdose. e.g. racing heart, headache, feeling jittery or anxious, feeling sick, pale skin, sweating, etc. If the person has a heart condition, there could be much more severe problems. So, not recommended. BillK From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 16 13:40:02 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:40:02 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2e256420-2e44-a584-d74f-e0fa8e419c4c@pobox.com> On 2020-12-15 19:32, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count.? It?s > merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. I cannot condone cruelty to substances. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 13:56:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 05:56:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 03:36, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > No way Jose! That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count. > It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. > It?s more analogous to guzzling a pot of coffee in one hour, that kinda thing: fair game. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Sorry Spike, but the adrenaline auto-injector isn't much fun. ... effects are what you would expect from a massive adrenaline overdose. e.g. racing heart, headache, feeling jittery or anxious, feeling sick, pale skin, sweating, etc. If the person has a heart condition, there could be much more severe problems. So, not recommended...BillK _______________________________________________ OK so... no low-cost roller coaster ride. Well, scratch that idea. No worries, the pot of coffee notion is cheaper anyway, and the effects are well-known. If I guzzle enough of the stuff fast enough, I get that list of symptoms. Never caused me a heart attack or anything, and I don't recall a headache. spike From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:50:39 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:50:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] when is enough enough In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And now the CCP tribe and the United States and her allied tribes, are engaged in what may become the greatest feud humanity has ever seen! This is due to the ruthlessness of the CCP, combined with their ever growing economic and military power, which may surpass the U.S. by only mid century. Throw in convergence technologies such as robotics, bio-engineering, AI, nanotechnology, hypersonic smart weapons and human/machine interfaces, and we could have a war that ends humanity (from a variety of scenarios) and leaves our mind children in charge. I hope the CCP leadership mellows out over time, but l have my doubts. So far what our economic cooperation has accomplished, is to create a world class adversary. John On Fri, Nov 27, 2020, 6:50 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Feuds have gone on in Scotland for hundreds of years. The Middle EAst is > one giant feud between the Jews and everybody, and the Sunnis and the > Shiites.. No doubt one could find such things all over the world. Korea > and Japan -Japan won't apologize for using Korean women as whores for their > army. > > How does it end? One attacks the other, does some damage, and the other > has to get revenge. Getting actually even seems never to occur. > > I am no expert on evolutionary psychology, and none of you may be either. > It was not that long ago that the world functioned at the tribal level and > I suppose we have not had the time to evolve beyond that. So we are stuck > at the level of the tragedy of the commons - every man/tribe for him/itself. > > Let's upload everybody and then have the AI pull the plug. > > bill w > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 16:00:28 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 10:00:28 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: No way Jose! That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count. It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. It?s more analogous to guzzling a pot of coffee in one hour, that kinda thing: fair game. spile You are familiar, I assume, with the term endocannabinoids? Natural substances which I enhance. So I am not a druggie either, eh? bill w On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 7:59 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > BillK via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! > > On Wed, 16 Dec 2020 at 03:36, spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > No way Jose! That isn?t substance abuse, doesn?t count. > > It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. > > It?s more analogous to guzzling a pot of coffee in one hour, that kinda > thing: fair game. > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...Sorry Spike, but the adrenaline auto-injector isn't much fun. > ... effects are what you would expect from a massive adrenaline overdose. > e.g. racing heart, headache, feeling jittery or anxious, feeling sick, pale > skin, sweating, etc. If the person has a heart condition, there could be > much more severe problems. So, not recommended...BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > OK so... no low-cost roller coaster ride. Well, scratch that idea. No > worries, the pot of coffee notion is cheaper anyway, and the effects are > well-known. If I guzzle enough of the stuff fast enough, I get that list > of symptoms. Never caused me a heart attack or anything, and I don't > recall a headache. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 17:51:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 09:51:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! >>?No way Jose! >?It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the body. ? spile >? You are familiar, I assume, with the term endocannabinoids? Natural substances which I enhance. So I am not a druggie either, eh? bill w Eh, druggie is such a harsh word. I don?t use it, even on the minority of wasted stoners who really deserve a bit of constructive derision for being such a useless wastrel. Billw, I prefer to think of you as? an endocannabinoidie. Sure it takes longer to say and to spell, but we are in no hurry, ja? It?s Christmas, you?re gonna live, we get to enjoy your company, your bride gets to enjoy your recovering? appetite, LIGO is rocking astronomy, humanity is getting immunized with American-made vaccines, life? is? gooooood. Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. It?s more like off-label pharmaceuticals, analogous to eating hydroxychloroquine to combat covid. It is now legal in most states to be an endocannabinoidie. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 19:29:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:29:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I think that you didn't really think when you wrote this: Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. Oh but what about alcoholism? A minor point, to be overlooked, really. Life is good. bill w On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 11:54 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! > > > > > >>?No way Jose! >?It?s merely? mm? abuse of a substance already in the > body. ? spile > > > > >? You are familiar, I assume, with the term endocannabinoids? Natural > substances which I enhance. So I am not a druggie either, eh? bill w > > > > Eh, druggie is such a harsh word. I don?t use it, even on the minority of > wasted stoners who really deserve a bit of constructive derision for being > such a useless wastrel. Billw, I prefer to think of you as? an > endocannabinoidie. Sure it takes longer to say and to spell, but we are in > no hurry, ja? It?s Christmas, you?re gonna live, we get to enjoy your > company, your bride gets to enjoy your recovering? appetite, LIGO is > rocking astronomy, humanity is getting immunized with American-made > vaccines, life? is? gooooood. > > Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. It?s > more like off-label pharmaceuticals, analogous to eating hydroxychloroquine > to combat covid. It is now legal in most states to be an > endocannabinoidie. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 19:42:32 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:42:32 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:55 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. > If it's a drug and you're abusing it, it really is drug abuse. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 20:28:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 12:28:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:29 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! I think that you didn't really think when you wrote this: Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. >?Oh but what about alcoholism? A minor point, to be overlooked, really. Life is good. bill w That one gets by on a technicality: alcohol is a non-prescription drug. Besides, we have been sold this big flim flam that alcoholism is a disease, rather than a character flaw. So we hafta overlook it or seek treatment and so forth. For that matter, grass is also a non-prescription drug, but think about it billw: the ingredient which makes ya stoned is THC: tetrahydrocannabinol. OK so we give it that long Latin name, so it sounds all chemicaley and prescriptioney and all that. But sheesh, it is in a weed fer cryin out loud. Giving it that long name doesn?t change the matter really, because we can figure out the meaning by working backwards. Tetra means ?four.? Hydro means ?water.? Cannabinol translates from the ancient Latin as ?stuff that is in weed.? Very simple really: tetrahydrocannabinol a big fancy word for a reefer and four glasses of water. We try to make it so complicated. Simplify your life, put away the weed and the alcohol, enjoy life fully sober. Lots here to enjoy. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 20:46:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:46:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: we have been sold this big flim flam that alcoholism is a disease, rather than a character flaw. spike Well. since I was a heavy drinker that some would call an alcoholic, I have a few thoughts on that. Alcoholism (A) is certainly a disease in the sense that it causes many physiological problems and can kill you. But it is not like a disease such as a viral infection, because you are voluntarily taking it in - with viruses you have no choice - and there are voluntary ways to stop the A, whereas voluntary actions do not kill viruses/bacteria/fungi. I am completely unable to explain why I was able to stop completely and suddenly and so many other people aren't. I cannot tell someone how to stop. Ditto for cigarettes. No magic wand. But clearly it is something in my personality that is not in the people who fail at quitting. I will not put a name on it. But some people would call it character. I never knew that I could quit at any time, and maybe that was totally false anyway. Maybe it was the stresses in my life bolstered by facets of my personality that came together and enabled me to quit. Frankly, it was easy. Quitting cigarettes was, physically,much harder. Craving for nicotine was not paralleled by craving for alcohol. In fact the next day I felt better than I had for many years. So maybe it's both a disease and a character flaw, but calling it the latter is useless, maybe even harmful, because we don't know how to fix the flaw or even what it is. bill w On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 2:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Wednesday, December 16, 2020 11:29 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! > > > > I think that you didn't really think when you wrote this: > > > > Think of it this way: if it?s legal, it isn?t really drug abuse. > > > > > > >?Oh but what about alcoholism? A minor point, to be overlooked, > really. Life is good. bill w > > > > > > > > That one gets by on a technicality: alcohol is a non-prescription drug. > Besides, we have been sold this big flim flam that alcoholism is a disease, > rather than a character flaw. So we hafta overlook it or seek treatment > and so forth. > > > > For that matter, grass is also a non-prescription drug, but think about it > billw: the ingredient which makes ya stoned is THC: tetrahydrocannabinol. > OK so we give it that long Latin name, so it sounds all chemicaley and > prescriptioney and all that. But sheesh, it is in a weed fer cryin out > loud. Giving it that long name doesn?t change the matter really, because > we can figure out the meaning by working backwards. Tetra means ?four.? > Hydro means ?water.? Cannabinol translates from the ancient Latin as > ?stuff that is in weed.? > > > > Very simple really: tetrahydrocannabinol a big fancy word for a reefer and > four glasses of water. We try to make it so complicated. Simplify your > life, put away the weed and the alcohol, enjoy life fully sober. Lots here > to enjoy. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 20:54:31 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:54:31 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 3:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Simplify your life, put away the weed and the alcohol, enjoy life fully > sober. Lots here to enjoy > Without sufficient kind and number of chemical there is nothing to observe that you would call sober. So i propose that even the milder "character flaw" be shortened to simply "character" You don't really even understand sobreity if you've never been far enough from it to gain perspective. Likewise without direct experience of a city you've never visited grants little authority to give directions to inhabitants or even tourists. I don't like raw tomatoes. I respect your preference to have them in a salad or on your sammich... I appreciate reciprocal respect to not. It gets weird when one group tries to "ban" behaviors of another. Yeah, from here we have to discuss shared resources of "common good" - but that seems like a stretch for tomatoes or thc > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 22:31:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:31:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008001d6d3fb$2834cf90$789e6eb0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Frankly, it was easy. Quitting cigarettes was, physically,much harder. ? bill w A good friend of mine passed away earlier this year, age 90. He was a colleague and mentor of sorts. He said the same: at age 45 he decided to make some major changes in his life. He was sitting in a bar with his wife and another couple. He said ?Hey babe, would go get me a pack of smokes?? She got up and he said ?Nah never mind, the hell with it. I quit.? The others said ?No pal, that really really isn?t the way it works.? Naturally a friendly argument ensued, bets were made, escalations escalated, until he took up the challenge to give up cigarettes, alcohol, grass and all cussing. The cussing was easy, grass fairly easy, the alcohol harder but he managed it. The cigs: that one really took him down. He struggled and struggled against it, with the determination typical of this particular guy. But he stayed with it, under the theory that if the smoking defeated him, he would drop back into the rest of it too, and he didn?t want to do that. He spent two full months craving smoke at the intensity of the first day without. Then he noticed he was getting by OK without it. When we worked together, he had been 15 yrs without a cigarette, but admitted he was one cigarette from a 3 pack a day habit. If he smoked even one, he would be back where he was. He collected on every bet. After his year was over, he went back to alcohol, beer only, cussing some, left the tobacco and grass to fade in the mirror. BillW, best wishes to you for giving it up. I might argue it?s the reason you are with us today. There is plenty of life without the feels-good chemicals: TCH, alcohol and nicotine. Compensate with plenty of caffeine and you?re good to go. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 22:34:17 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:34:17 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! On Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 3:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Simplify your life, put away the weed and the alcohol, enjoy life fully sober. Lots here to enjoy >?Without sufficient kind and number of chemical there is nothing to observe that you would call sober. ? >?Yeah, from here we have to discuss shared resources of "common good" - but that seems like a stretch for tomatoes or thc Ja. I do freely confess I am far from my area of expertise, having very little experience with alcohol, none with nicotine or THC. I do enjoy life without them, but I cannot claim others would do likewise, for I am not others. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 23:29:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 17:29:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ten years after I quite smoking I had the opportunity to have a drag from my favorite: Salem. So I took a big one and inhaled and proved to myself that I could start back on two packs a day extremely easily. I didn't, but to tell the truth, if I knew for sure that I had a short time to live, I think I would start back. I think it is the worst addiction in terms of changing your brain. It has been said that one puff permanently changes your brain. Alcohol - I never relapsed but I did order a beer with pizza once after a few years. I didn't even finish it. I was through with it. However, I have a high tolerance for opioids and if I can't get enough painkiller when my cancer spreads into my bones, I will take it up again, no question. Just as a medication. bill w On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 4:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! > > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 3:31 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Simplify your life, put away the weed and the alcohol, enjoy life fully > sober. Lots here to enjoy > > >?Without sufficient kind and number of chemical there is nothing to > observe that you would call sober. > > ? > > >?Yeah, from here we have to discuss shared resources of "common good" - > but that seems like a stretch for tomatoes or thc > > > > > > > > > > Ja. I do freely confess I am far from my area of expertise, having very > little experience with alcohol, none with nicotine or THC. I do enjoy life > without them, but I cannot claim others would do likewise, for I am not > others. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 16 23:44:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 15:44:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! >? I didn't, but to tell the truth, if I knew for sure that I had a short time to live, I think I would start back? bill w Billw I have pondered this and wondered, if one is old and in pain, is there a good reason to not take up the feels-good chemicals? I can?t think of one. My grandfather smoked from age about 15 to 48. After his high school 30th reunion in 1956, he could easily see that if one divided the class into those who did and those who didn?t, the non-smokers were clearly healthier. He didn?t smoke until he was about 70, at which time he developed Alzheimers: he forgot that he quit. He quit again a coupla years later. He forgot he ever started. So? at some point, I don?t see why not use them. I will wait until about 85, or a little longer if my health is good then. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmd54321 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 00:39:44 2020 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 19:39:44 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> I've taken, and am making, the RaDVaC vaccine ? https://radvac.org/ Features: - Intranasal subunit vaccine. - Multi-epitope approach with a balance of B cell and T cell (both CD4+ and CD8+) epitopes. - Low-dose, multiple-booster approach (less risk of immune tolerance). - Peptide epitopes selection criteria geared towards minimizing risk of antibody-dependent enhancement of disease (ADE). - Epitopes chosen from conserved parts of the virus (hence low mutant escape potential). - Safe adjuvant (not alum or other conventional adjuvants, but rather chitosan, which (1) is well studied, (2) tends not to create a Th1-heavy response, and (3) doubles as a nanoparticle delivery vehicle). - No preservatives. - All chosen peptide sequences have been BLASTed against the human proteome (to ensure minimal risk of induced autoimmunity). - Easy to prepare, so many groups around the world are now making this. (I'm making it at home, and even on the road ? the equipment and all reagents/"ingredients"/ fit easily in a carry-on bag.) - We are giving this away: no charge. Clinical trials would have meant locking in a design based on the status of research at a given, early, point in time, hence being forced to ignore rapidly evolving knowledge. It will be 4?7 months before most people have access to a "normal" vaccine, so we're trying to let people know about this now, when it's most needed. Q: Why should I take an experimental vaccine, when I can wait a few months and take a vaccine that's approved by my government's regulatory agency (FDA, EMA, etc.)? A: Any vaccine you take before 2022, and perhaps long after, should be regarded as, in one way or another, experimental. The question is: which experiment do you want to be part of? Brian > Speaking of damn doctors? how many here are planning to get the vaccine > in the next month?? Two months?? Four? From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 17 02:02:36 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:02:36 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <18f12380-f2eb-795c-399f-a3c04ea91793@pobox.com> On 2020-12-16 12:28, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > tetrahydrocannabinol.? OK so we give it that long Latin name of which the first half is Greek -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 02:06:07 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:06:07 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: at some point, I don?t see why not use them. I will wait until about 85, or a little longer if my health is good then spike WEll, just keep in mind that many if not most smokers want to quit. It becomes something you have to do, not want to do. You look down at your cigarette and think 'Now why did I do that?" In addition: telling myself that I was tired of wanting to quit was one of my mantras in the early stages of quitting. Lastly, I was a psychologist who dreamed of controlling behavior and I could not control mine. WEAK WEAK.n.* spike* On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 5:47 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! > > > > >? I didn't, but to tell the truth, if I knew for sure that I had a > short time to live, I think I would start back? bill w > > > > Billw I have pondered this and wondered, if one is old and in pain, is > there a good reason to not take up the feels-good chemicals? > > > > I can?t think of one. My grandfather smoked from age about 15 to 48. > After his high school 30th reunion in 1956, he could easily see that if > one divided the class into those who did and those who didn?t, the > non-smokers were clearly healthier. > > > > He didn?t smoke until he was about 70, at which time he developed > Alzheimers: he forgot that he quit. He quit again a coupla years later. > He forgot he ever started. > > > > So? at some point, I don?t see why not use them. I will wait until about > 85, or a little longer if my health is good then. > > > > spike > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 17 02:30:25 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 18:30:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-16 16:39, Brian Manning Delaney via extropy-chat wrote: > A: Any vaccine you take before 2022, and perhaps long after, should be > regarded as, in one way or another, experimental. The question is: which > experiment do you want to be part of? Is anyone else reminded of something Ralph Merkle said on another subject? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 17 04:08:52 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 20:08:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d6d42a$54ede4c0$fec9ae40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2020 6:06 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! at some point, I don?t see why not use them. I will wait until about 85, or a little longer if my health is good then spike >?WEll, just keep in mind that many if not most smokers want to quit. Better idea: get the nicotine patches or the gum. I don?t know anyone who took that up without ever being a smoker, but if we looked, perhaps we could find people who did it that way. There is a near-zero chance I would take up burning leaves: too stinky. I haven?t heard there is any health risks to nicotine gum or patches. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 17 15:05:26 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 07:05:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <002601d6d42a$54ede4c0$fec9ae40$@rainier66.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> <002601d6d42a$54ede4c0$fec9ae40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-16 20:08, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Better idea: get the nicotine patches or the gum.? I don?t know anyone > who took that up without ever being a smoker, but if we looked, perhaps > we could find people who did it that way.? There is a near-zero chance I > would take up burning leaves: too stinky. > > I haven?t heard there is any health risks to nicotine gum or patches. I have never experienced nicotine, and sometimes consider sampling the gum once, but a package of the stuff is pricey enough that it seems like too much commitment! -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:07:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:07:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> <002601d6d42a$54ede4c0$fec9ae40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Anton: I have never experienced nicotine, and sometimes consider sampling the gum once, but a package of the stuff is pricey enough that it seems like too much commitment!Three cups of coffee has positive nutritional value. Why mess with a known killer? bill w On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 9:09 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-16 20:08, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Better idea: get the nicotine patches or the gum. I don?t know anyone > > who took that up without ever being a smoker, but if we looked, perhaps > > we could find people who did it that way. There is a near-zero chance I > > would take up burning leaves: too stinky. > > > > I haven?t heard there is any health risks to nicotine gum or patches. > > I have never experienced nicotine, and sometimes consider sampling the > gum once, but a package of the stuff is pricey enough that it seems like > too much commitment! > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:11:38 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 12:11:38 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <006801d6d345$1294bcb0$37be3610$@rainier66.com> <001f01d6d35c$0d067fb0$27137f10$@rainier66.com> <000d01d6d3b3$32da1c90$988e55b0$@rainier66.com> <001e01d6d3d4$16416400$42c42c00$@rainier66.com> <004d01d6d3ea$02c21490$08463db0$@rainier66.com> <008701d6d3fb$9787a6b0$c696f410$@rainier66.com> <00aa01d6d405$66724c60$3356e520$@rainier66.com> <002601d6d42a$54ede4c0$fec9ae40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 10:09 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I have never experienced nicotine, and sometimes consider sampling the > gum once, but a package of the stuff is pricey enough that it seems like > too much commitment! > I tried these: https://www.amazon.com/Nicorette-Nicotine-Lozenge-milligram-Smoking/dp/B004RFF7ES/ref=sr_1_32?crid=127CHBSBWONT9&dchild=1&keywords=nicotine+lozenges+2mg&qid=1608224696&sprefix=nicotine%2Caps%2C226&sr=8-32 $11.48 for a 20-pack. Not cheap, but not a big investment. I tried it after Robb Wolf talked about it. I didn't stick with it, though, because I didn't notice much effect. https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/transcripts/transcript-a-day-in-the-life-of-robb-wolf/ *Ben: I may have to dig around for this one, but I?ll find a link to it for everybody listening in if I can hunt it down. Now, the other thing that fascinates me, and that I just started doing after actually reading this article that you wrote. I?ve been chopping it down in the gym is? nicotine gum. I?m actually? I?m holding this stuff that I ? the stuff that I?ve found to be the lowest in colors and artificial sweeteners, and it still has a little bit of acesulfame potassium in it which is uh, the stuff made by the company Good Sense. It?s uh, just take 2 mg per? but it doesn?t taste that great but nicotine gum. Tell me about the safety of using nicotine gum and why you use it, and why you found with the use and dosage of nicotine?Robb: Well you know, gosh, it was 7 years ago I started doing work for the Naval Special Warfare Resiliency Committee basically going in and talking to the Seal Teams, the boat teams, and also the family members of the teams and their pre-imposed deployment kinda get-together that they would have, and they wanted me to talk about sleep, and food, exercise, which the exercise is kinda goofy ?cause these guys have that pretty wired up, and it was part of what they want me to cover. And then they wanted me to cover some lifestyle stuff like booze, nicotine, you know, caffeine, and all that because you know, hyper vigilant, environment because these guys get on flip circadian rhythms where they?ll awake all night, and they go to sleep during the day, they use sleep aids to go down, they?ll Monsters and you know, all kinds of stuff to get back up and goin?, and so, in my trying to do some due diligence when I was getting ready to talk about nicotine, I was like ? Okay, let?s just do some basic pharmacology and toxicology on this so that I?m brushed up on these stuff.As I started digging around on it, it was interesting because I started finding all these studies of like the therapeutic benefits of nicotine like it was beneficial for all these GI disorders and anti-inflammatory, and you know, there was always the caveat that the delivery mechanism tobacco was really problematic, but when they were using just kind of a pharmaceutical type agent like a gum or a lozenges or something like that, then you didn?t really have any issues when you look at the toxicology specifically of nicotine, looked alike like caffeine like you certainly could kill yourself with it but you know, every once a while some nappy headed kid will order a pure caffeine off the internet, and get a lethal dose of it but you know, it?s easier to kill yourself with Tylenol than it is this stuff. And it?s another dopamine modulator and I definitely you know, I?ve all these symptoms of kinda low dopamine, just kinda fit you to ADD like always need to project going on and stuff like that. I?m kind of happiest when I?m just barely on the edge of death by doing something not cool headed. And so, as I started really reading through this stuff, I was like ? wow! This is really interesting and then I thought back about my family and thinking a little bit about my genetics. I?m like ? every one of my family members smoked and you know (chuckles) and so I started noodling on this, and cigarette smoking had always just completely repulsed me but I was kinda like, well shoot I?ll give this stuff a shot, and so, my first try with it was a 4 mg piece which was way too much, and I got horrifically nauseous, almost threw up, rooms spins for about an hour, it was terrible. So, if people play with this, I strongly, strongly encourage you start off with like a milligram or less if you?ll start.Ben: I did, I did two. What I?ve been doing is 2 and that?s typically, because I do a hard workout. Typically sometime between 4 and 7PM, you know, and I take a nap after lunch, right? and so I?ve woken up from my nap the past couple of days and grab a piece of 2 mg and start chomping on it, and I?ve found, I go pre-hard until about 9PM while chewing on this stuff, and I haven?t gone above 2 mg yet.Robb: And you know, I pretty much stay at the 2 mg level. I?ll do a couple of pieces throughout the day, and what?s interesting is nicotine is a stimulant but it works differently than the way that caffeine does. It?s not just specifically dinging the adrenals and kind of getting that epinephrine kind of release. It?s working through a little bit more of a dopamine energic activity, and what was really interesting within the military context was it uh, it will keep guys alert but if they, say like if they?re out on a patrol but they were gonna get home or get back to base and then go to bed, it seem like a better option if they needed to stay awake, but then they can sleep in pretty close proximity to their work day wrapping up because it wasn?t going to disorder sleep the way that caffeine does. It wasn?t going to antagonize melatonin release. And what was also interesting is that it didn?t tended in a wrap find motor skill, so if the guys knew that they will gonna cover a lot of ground, and they will gonna have a heavy pack and stuff like that, and I was recommending you know, like uh, something like a 50 mg of caffeine in every 4-6 hours to keep this activity, but then if they will dug into a hillside and they will waiting to take a long distance shot or something like that or even if it was as mundane as needing to stay awake to finish a report and then go to bed, I was recommending the caffeine or the nicotine for some of these other options, so they kinda have different stimulants that they could use based off of what type of needs that they had going on, and it?s just been phenomenal for me, and I used to have all sorts of colitis long, long time ago. The basic paleo eating really helped that enormously, but I?ve always had still a little bit of a touchy gut and the nicotine seems to help that quite a bit too.Ben: Interesting! Very interesting. You know, we?re returning back to the discussion on genetics. I did noticed when I went through my promethease gene printout, I have a 4 times higher than normal risk of being addicted to nicotine. So I supposed you know for me, this could turn into a concern or just very, very good business for whichever nicotine gums business that I choose, but I?m curious if people are metabolizing it or addicted to it in different ways, but regardless, I just did my own personal experimentation with it and the research that I?ve done based off some of the resources that you provide in the article that I?ll link to in the show notes, it does appear to be safer than I would have thought based off of the negative perception we all associate with it probably because of cigarettes.Robb: Yeah, you know there?s a fascinating web mdps on uh, like if you Google WebMD nicotine gum, there?s a piece basically talking about all these forms of smokers and now addicted to nicotine gum, and it?s probably, I had 3 page ______ [1:00:46.7] all these hand wringing and these concern, and then at the very end, the guy almost as if he kinda ______ [1:00:54.6]. I don?t know where he did research in this whole cycle or who got saddled with writing this thing, but literally the last paragraph, the guy basically wraps up and he said, ?you know, it?s actually hard to vilify?, like I?m left wondering if this is even an issue given the fact that the nicotine itself pharmacologically and toxicologically really is pretty dumb benign and that all of the negative effects that we usually ascribe to nicotine is a by-product of the delivery system, the tobacco whether it?s smoked or chewed, so that?s just an interesting read because these guys are really they?re talking about? well, how do we get folks off of this nicotine gum, you know, it?s a real concern, and then the guy actually wraps it up by saying, ?I, medically I don?t know that there?s anything wrong with this, and that we?re wasting our time doing this.? So that, that was really fascinating piece because WebMD is about as orthodox missionary-style mainstream medicine, it?s you can get. So, and even that guy was kinda like, I don?t know that I could really say that there?s anything wrong with this stuff.Ben: Yeah, I see that article here about? it?s called ?Addicted to Nicorette?. I?ll link to it. I?ll link to in the show notes for folks, and of course the only thing I?ve run into in addition to my concern over potential for addiction based on genes is the fact that you know, I have this healthy xylitol flavored vitamin B enriched like gluten-free, everything free, vegan sustainable gum that I chew, and whenever I grab a piece, my kids ask for a piece, and I?m relatively guilt-free but hand to him. And so, I?ve been grabbing the Nicorette and my kids like, ?hey dad, can I have a piece?? and uh, so I run into the same situation I run into when either vaping or drinking a cup of coffee trying to explain to them that they need to wait a little while until they?re at appropriate age and their organs/gray matter can handle that load but uh?Robb: It?s a concern ?cause you definitely don?t want a kid digging into your nicotine gum like that. That would be a disaster.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 19:20:53 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 14:20:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 7:43 PM Brian Manning Delaney via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > I've taken, and am making, the RaDVaC vaccine ? > > https://radvac.org/ Wow, cool! What a great idea. My concerns, of course, would be about safety and effectiveness. The side effects reported so far are mild. What's the worst-case scenario? I know the numbers are low, but is there any indication that it works? Or doesn't? -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bmd54321 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 21:54:06 2020 From: bmd54321 at gmail.com (Brian Manning Delaney) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:54:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] vaccine was: RE: damn doctors! In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6d29d$25c62790$715276b0$@rainier66.com> <85384757-55d2-965d-b869-b918d525b2e5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b3ba0c9-52cb-55f0-7a33-1499b3927208@gmail.com> El 2020-12-17 a las 14:20, Dave Sill via extropy-chat escribi?: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 7:43 PM Brian Manning Delaney via extropy-chat > > > wrote: > > I've taken, and am making, the RaDVaC vaccine ? > > https://radvac.org/ > > > Wow, cool! What a great idea. > > My concerns, of course, would be about safety and effectiveness. The > side effects reported so far are mild. What's the worst-case?scenario? I > know the numbers are low, but is there any indication that it works? Or > doesn't? Yeah, I love RaDVaC. The power of the project can be generalized to far more than vaccines. A two-pager I wrote when I first found out about RaDVaC is here: http://infinitefaculty.org/RaDVaC/ We're trying to raise funds to do confirmatory testing, but still have a ways to go. It's tricky because we need to measure 1) mucosal immunity (secretory IgA antibodies), and 2) T cell?mediated immunity, both of which are hard to measure. For now, we've gotten several reports of people being at super-spreader events who did not get any symptoms, with one exception: an obese, type 2 diabetic 70-year-old man, who'd taken the vaccine, and "had a cough for four or so days" after being at a such an event, where most of the others present got very sick. Maybe the vaccine saved his life. We don't know of course. I've spent a lot of time in Sweden since July, where I followed "when in Sweden, do as the Swedes do" (reckless, I know, but after a while one loses resolve). Despite coughing blondes slobbering on me at bars, I've never had symptoms. These anecdotes don't mean much of course. My belief in the efficacy of the vaccine is, rather, theoretical, sort of like never having heard of a parachute when a parachute is offered to me on a plane that's about to crash. I can ?reason from mechanism? about the effects of being attached to a large, light-weight horizontal surface, and can quickly decide to accept the offer, even in the absence of clinical trials about the safety and efficacy of parachutes. Same thing with safety: the design has many risk-mitigation strategies that make sense. There are risks to any vaccine, but the risks of COVID-19 to someone, like me ? well into his fifties, with sub-optimal immunity, seem far greater than the risks of RaDVaC. But now that our design is mature, we're trying to get a clinical trial started. Brian P.S. It's a legal gray area, but it seems that it might not be illlegal for someone to come by my place in Boca Raton and make this with me. From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 18 03:44:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 19:44:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong Message-ID: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> We often focus on whether government has the authority to enforce a lockdown, but that is only part of it. There is no scientific consensus on whether lockdowns are effective, and if they are a good idea. California has shut down everything and mandated masks whenever one leaves one's house. I do ignore that one I freely admit, but compliance is about 70% I would estimate. Today we had a surge of cases unforeseen to date. Perhaps the lockdown has caused people to stay indoors more, which I have long suspected is harmful. As in New York, we are questioning if the lockdowns might do more harm than good. Dr. David Nabarro, World Health Organization's Special Envoy on Covid-19: ".We really do appeal to all the world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it. Work together and learn from each other, but remember, lockdowns have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer." So. we might be debating government authority, while the government is recommending a course which does more harm than good. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 12:47:58 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 12:47:58 +0000 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 at 03:49, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > We often focus on whether government has the authority to enforce a lockdown, but that is only part of it. There is no scientific consensus on whether lockdowns are effective, and if they are a good idea. > > California has shut down everything and mandated masks whenever one leaves one?s house. I do ignore that one I freely admit, but compliance is about 70% I would estimate. Today we had a surge of cases unforeseen to date. Perhaps the lockdown has caused people to stay indoors more, which I have long suspected is harmful. As in New York, we are questioning if the lockdowns might do more harm than good. > Dr. David Nabarro, World Health Organization?s Special Envoy on Covid-19: ??We really do appeal to all the world leaders: stop using lockdown as your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it. Work together and learn from each other, but remember, lockdowns have one consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer.? > > So? we might be debating government authority, while the government is recommending a course which does more harm than good. > > spike > _______________________________________________ One of the best explanations I've read. >From the American Institute for Economic Research Long article, but worth reading. The Decimal Point that Blew Up the World Jeffrey A. Tucker ? December 16, 2020 Reading Time: 11 minutes Quotes: Another statistic that bears repeating, Covid ? based on infections vs deaths ? has close to a 99.9% survival rate. Imagine how the world would have been different had Fauci told that to the Congress on that fateful day of March 11. Or what if Fauci had revealed that the average age of death from Covid would almost equal the average lifespan in the US and exceed it in most parts of the world? People present might have wondered why they were holding hearings at all. ------ What we know is that a terminological confusion, a misplaced decimal point, a one-word error in data description, and a massive amount of arrogant presumptions about how to control a virus set in motion a series of events that turned our great and prosperous country into a disaster of confusion, demoralization, foregone medical services, closed businesses, wrecked arts and education, and long bread lines. The lockdowners who created this appalling disaster, the people who turned our trust into betrayal and a blizzard of statistical baloney, need to look at the science and data as they stand and come clean. -------------------------- Brilliant writing! Crystal clear explanation. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 18 14:45:10 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 06:45:10 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <007f01d6d54c$639c0b50$2ad421f0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ One of the best explanations I've read. >From the American Institute for Economic Research Long article, but worth reading. >...The Decimal Point that Blew Up the World Jeffrey A. Tucker ? December 16, 2020 Reading Time: 11 minutes Quotes: ... -------------------------- >...Brilliant writing! Crystal clear explanation. BillK _______________________________________________ Thanks BillK! I had heard the terms IFR and CFR, but this article is the best one I have seen in explaining the terms. There many moving parts to this story. One which may have been underplayed is that news agencies are in the struggle of their lives. Panic stories sell like hotcakes: the get the eyes to the ads. The mainstream news people ran panic porn continually. Now their credibility has dropped as a response. Plenty of us see covid as a severe flu rather than a death sentence. We have known people who caught it and recovered, some who had a really bad time, others who describe it as an ordinary flu or not even that bad really. That age demographic is very important. Considering the median age of fatality with or of covid is about equal to the US life expectancy for men and as old as the current POTUS-elect, it is difficult or impossible to really know what the fatality rate should be. Belgium has been telling us all along that the numbers depend on how they are counted. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 16:39:40 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 10:39:40 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Japanese education Message-ID: >From a much longer post on Quora. Aren't you glad you are an American? bill w Japan has the highest teenage suicide rate in the entire world and the one and only thing which can be blamed for this is the Japanese Education System. South Korea is next. First thing that happens when one enters junior high school is the process of self criticism. Students are guided to lose their self-esteem and ego by forcing upon them strict rules and simple tasks. This way, teens would be prevented from becoming rebellious against their mentor. Strict rules apply to places not only within the school limits but to daily life as well. In case of what I?ve experienced, -No dating allowed -No volunteer activity allowed without the approval of the school principal -No part-time jobs allowed unless the financial situation forces the subject to. In this case, a written permission from both parents, homeroom teacher and school principal are required along with a strict review of the labor contract -One must not meet with the opposite sex other than for academic proposes such as Jukus (Japanese cram school), extracurricular activities, and examinations (I was enrolled in a boys school) -No traveling allowed without the permission of the school authority. When approved, one must act according to the schedule approved by the school. -No eating in public spaces even when the subject is outside the school boundaries -Route to school must be submitted and students may only act accordingly every day to and from school -Strict dress code which must be followed in and out of school -No electronic devices allowed -No possession of smartphones allowed. When cell phones are necessary as a communication with the student and its parents, only the traditional types are allowed. These are just handful of rules I can think of. Honestly, there are some rules that are legitimate and most of the rules exist to avoid unnecessary difficulties the teen might encounter. However, most of the rules are just against the liberty of the people in my opinion. Also, there are considerable amount of physical punishment applied in Japanese school and also from parents. Some students get beaten by teachers just because their ties were not properly tied. I remember getting beaten up by my parents for not been able to solve a math problem right. On my first mistake, I get spanked once. On my second mistake, I get spanked twice. On my third mistake, I get spanked thrice, and so on until both get physically tired or get bruised. I was lucky because only a decade ago, people used to cane students for incorrect answers, although this was banned. Yet, every so often, in the news, somewhere in Japan, a student would get beaten to death as ?punishment? from teachers often for reasons like ?forgetting to bring something? or ?sneezing during an important speech? etc. This is just one phantom of the Japanese empire during World War Two still influencing Japanese society.What about me? I was lucky enough not to be born in ?that? generation? One of my language arts teacher was a professional junior Kendo player. However, his language arts teacher had a policy which, if they answered incorrectly to an answer, students, regardless of gender, would be slammed by a bamboo sword. As being slammed by a bamboo sword by an amateur was the worst thing possible as a professional, he studied super hard and became a lone survivor of that punishment. As a result, he got a job as a Language arts teacher. Oh, the irony! Thus, people start losing their ego and commit suicide as a result. In short, Japanese education is a system which makes individuals into an economic machine. Children before enrollment have lots of dreams like participating in a volunteer activity, being a game developer, doctor, scientist to solve a particular problem, etc. The function of the system is to crush all of those hopes and extract the ?individual? out to the collective. By the end of the process, the students would have lost most of their self so that they can be exploited by major corporations and government official. That's how the Japanese economy worked in the post war economic Growth. However, those days are over. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Dec 18 18:24:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 10:24:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: <007f01d6d54c$639c0b50$2ad421f0$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <007f01d6d54c$639c0b50$2ad421f0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0553ddec-d598-ddbb-c5b9-6c926f1e390c@pobox.com> On 2020-12-18 06:45, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Plenty of us see covid as a severe flu rather than a death sentence. > We have known people who caught it and recovered, some who had a > really bad time, others who describe it as an ordinary flu or not > even that bad really. And some appear to have permanent damage, let's not forget. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 18 20:08:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 12:08:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hey, that's essential Message-ID: <006001d6d579$825e5e30$871b1a90$@rainier66.com> As one might expect, the strip club owners sued the governor, claiming they are an essential business. Depending on how one defines the term "essential" and "are." https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/story/2020-12-16/judge-allo ws-strip-clubs-to-stay-open-indicates-restaurants-could-reopen-too OK so, strip clubs stay open. The judge didn't say whether or not the performers would be required to wear a mask, and if so. how it had to be worn. My next question, if strip clubs can stay open, clearly those are going to be indoors, and indoor dining is shut down, well then, it is clear enough to me how restaurants can stay in business. Oh my restaurants will likely be a lot more fun this way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 03:08:30 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 19:08:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 4:51 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > The Decimal Point that Blew Up the World > Jeffrey A. Tucker ? December 16, 2020 Reading Time: 11 minutes > > Quotes: > Another statistic that bears repeating, Covid ? based on infections vs > deaths ? has close to a 99.9% survival rate. > If only that were true - unless they mean all Covids. Covid-19 has, in most places, a 98%-95% survival rate, from what I'm seeing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 06:47:46 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 17:47:46 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 at 14:47, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > We often focus on whether government has the authority to enforce a > lockdown, but that is only part of it. There is no scientific consensus on > whether lockdowns are effective, and if they are a good idea. > > > > California has shut down everything and mandated masks whenever one leaves > one?s house. I do ignore that one I freely admit, but compliance is about > 70% I would estimate. Today we had a surge of cases unforeseen to date. > Perhaps the lockdown has caused people to stay indoors more, which I have > long suspected is harmful. As in New York, we are questioning if the > lockdowns might do more harm than good. > > > > Dr. David Nabarro, World Health Organization?s Special Envoy on Covid-19: > ?*?We really do appeal to all the world leaders: stop using lockdown as > your primary control method. Develop better systems for doing it.* Work > together and learn from each other, but remember, lockdowns have one > consequence that you must never ever belittle, and that is making poor > people an awful lot poorer.? > > > > So? we might be debating government authority, while the government is > recommending a course which does more harm than good. > It?s certain that a complete lockdown where everyone stays home for six weeks will eliminate the virus. That isn?t practical, so it has to be a partial lockdown. But a partial lockdown that is insufficiently stringent may be more prolonged and cause economic harm for little benefit. There is a certain optimal level of restriction which is to be determined empirically and perhaps through mathematical modelling. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 09:13:28 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 09:13:28 +0000 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 03:13, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 4:51 AM BillK via extropy-chat wrote: >> >> >> >> The Decimal Point that Blew Up the World >> Jeffrey A. Tucker ? December 16, 2020 Reading Time: 11 minutes >> >> Quotes: >> Another statistic that bears repeating, Covid ? based on infections vs >> deaths ? has close to a 99.9% survival rate. > > > If only that were true - unless they mean all Covids. Covid-19 has, in most places, a 98%-95% survival rate, from what I'm seeing. > _______________________________________________ The article gives references for any claims made. COVID mortality rate differs by age group and by country. Quote: In the midst of all of this, the CDC itself finally updated its own estimates of the infection fatality rate of Covid-19. The CDC wisely took account of the huge demographic stratification of severe outcomes. There is not one rate that applies to the whole population or to any particular individual. There are only backward looking estimates of outcomes. They are all follows: 0.003% for 0-19 years 0.02% for 20-49 years 0.5% for 50-69 years 5.4% for 70+ years Flipping the data to state it by survival rate by age: 99.997% for 0-19 years 99.98% for 20-49 years 99.5% for 50-69 years 94.6% for 70+ years John Ioannidis sums up the disparity by age with the following infection fatality rate for people under the age of 70: 0.05%. This conclusion has been peer-reviewed and published by the World Health Organization. ------------------------------- BillK From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 19 13:41:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 05:41:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002301d6d60c$a6b17e50$f4147af0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] the science might be wrong On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 at 14:47, spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: So? we might be debating government authority, while the government is recommending a course which does more harm than good. >?It?s certain that a complete lockdown where everyone stays home for six weeks will eliminate the virus. That isn?t practical, so it has to be a partial lockdown. But a partial lockdown that is insufficiently stringent may be more prolonged and cause economic harm for little benefit. There is a certain optimal level of restriction which is to be determined empirically and perhaps through mathematical modelling. -- Stathis Papaioannou Agreed, partial lockdowns cause economic harm for little benefit. Complete lockdowns are illegal and impossible. So? Florida is showing us the way. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 19 16:06:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 08:06:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat So? we might be debating government authority, while the government is recommending a course which does more harm than good. >?It?s certain that a complete lockdown where everyone stays home for six weeks will eliminate the virus? Stathis Papaioannou Stathis, it isn?t at all certain that a six week lockdown would eliminate the virus. We have politicians claiming it and saying our system is flawed because they aren?t given the authority to do things like that, but it isn?t clear at all that it would work. It might make the problem worse: the virus could make the rounds inside an apartment complex somehow. After the complete lockdown it could come back. Nothing is certain. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 18:46:50 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 05:46:50 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 03:08, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > So? we might be debating government authority, while the government is > recommending a course which does more harm than good. > > >?It?s certain that a complete lockdown where everyone stays home for six > weeks will eliminate the virus? Stathis Papaioannou > > > > Stathis, it isn?t at all certain that a six week lockdown would eliminate > the virus. We have politicians claiming it and saying our system is flawed > because they aren?t given the authority to do things like that, but it > isn?t clear at all that it would work. It might make the problem worse: > the virus could make the rounds inside an apartment complex somehow. After > the complete lockdown it could come back. Nothing is certain. > OK, not certain, but very likely. Previous SARS outbreaks have been contained and eliminated because they were localised and it was possible to do this. It?s not possible to do it with the current pandemic given that the virus has spread throughout the world. In Australia it had effectively been eliminated (no infections and no active cases for months) but has taken off again via cases from travellers in quarantine. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 19 19:12:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 11:12:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <009901d6d63a$d6c8cf20$845a6d60$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat >?OK, not certain, but very likely. Previous SARS outbreaks have been contained and eliminated because they were localised and it was possible to do this. It?s not possible to do it with the current pandemic given that the virus has spread throughout the world. In Australia it had effectively been eliminated (no infections and no active cases for months) but has taken off again via cases from travellers in quarantine. -- Stathis Papaioannou Ja, international travel spreads the virus and international travel cannot be stopped. No matter what any government does, international travel cannot be completely stopped because there is illegal border crossing. In the case of both the USA and Belgium, both have a lot of international travelers and neither can stop that. At the time covid became well-known, there were tourists overseas, some of whom were already infected. There is no way to stop them from coming home. If quarantines are enforced, then the people caring for those travelers become infected and the virus gets loose anyway. Borders and border enforcement can?t stop the virus, which is why it didn?t anywhere. But a vaccine can, which is why I predict it will stop it everywhere. This is why we don?t give governments unlimited power in response to a virus, but we give medical science all the resources they can use. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 19:47:02 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 06:47:02 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: <009901d6d63a$d6c8cf20$845a6d60$@rainier66.com> References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> <009901d6d63a$d6c8cf20$845a6d60$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 06:13, spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat > > >?OK, not certain, but very likely. Previous SARS outbreaks have been > contained and eliminated because they were localised and it was possible to > do this. It?s not possible to do it with the current pandemic given that > the virus has spread throughout the world. In Australia it had effectively > been eliminated (no infections and no active cases for months) but has > taken off again via cases from travellers in quarantine. > > -- > > Stathis Papaioannou > > > > > > Ja, international travel spreads the virus and international travel cannot > be stopped. No matter what any government does, international travel > cannot be completely stopped because there is illegal border crossing. In > the case of both the USA and Belgium, both have a lot of international > travelers and neither can stop that. > > > > At the time covid became well-known, there were tourists overseas, some of > whom were already infected. There is no way to stop them from coming > home. If quarantines are enforced, then the people caring for those > travelers become infected and the virus gets loose anyway. Borders and > border enforcement can?t stop the virus, which is why it didn?t anywhere. > But a vaccine can, which is why I predict it will stop it everywhere. > > > > This is why we don?t give governments unlimited power in response to a > virus, but we give medical science all the resources they can use. > Epidemiology is part of medical science, the methods to contain epidemics are not invented by politicians. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 18:19:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 12:19:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? Message-ID: Biden says that we are going to punish Russia for its role in the hacking of government computers. Well, that's spying, and doesn't everyone do it - like us? I'll bet we are hacking away at North Korea's, Russia's, China's, computers and problem a lot more. Remember when we were spying on our friends in Britain and Germany? What about this isn't just business as usual? bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Sun Dec 20 21:12:20 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2020 13:12:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-19 10:46, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > Previous SARS outbreaks have been contained and eliminated > because they were localised and it was possible to do this. Seems to me I've read that they were less contagious (smaller R?). -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From stathisp at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 21:42:45 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 08:42:45 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 08:14, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-19 10:46, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: > > Previous SARS outbreaks have been contained and eliminated > > because they were localised and it was possible to do this. > > Seems to me I've read that they were less contagious (smaller R?). More severe, less contagious. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From giulio at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 09:07:13 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2020 10:07:13 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Simulation cosmology: Agah Bahari interviews Rizwan Virk and Jason Jorjani Message-ID: Simulation cosmology: Agah Bahari interviews Rizwan Virk and Jason Jorjani Agah Bahari interviews the authors of two recent books that delve deep into simulation cosmology: Rizwan Virk and Jason Jorjani... https://turingchurch.net/simulation-cosmology-agah-bahari-interviews-rizwan-virk-and-jason-jorjani-d7753df14f9e From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 17:08:29 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 11:08:29 -0600 Subject: [ExI] from Premium This is True Message-ID: *This sounds terrific, but of course I cannot vouch for the organization whose link is below:* *Love Thy Neighbor:* The Rev. Minna Bothwell asked the congregation of the Capitol Hill Lutheran Church in Des Moines, Iowa, to think about how the church could expand their mission. What nonprofit could they fund that would be in keeping with their Biblical ideals? The congregation suggested an organization that buys up medical debt, and then forgives the people who owed it: they walk away with no debt, and no more creditors calling. The church called RIP Medical Debt and asked ?how much money it would take to forgive all the medical debt in Polk County,? Bothwell said. ?They responded, ?With what you have, you could forgive [medical] debt in all of Iowa?.? It only took about $8,000 for the church to fund the organization in buying up $5 million worth of medical debt owed by Iowans. ?We?ve seen firsthand what debt has done to families, and how hard it can be,? Rev. Bothwell said. It was so easy, the church is now raising $15,000 to zero out all the medical debt in Missouri. ?2020 has been a rough year for everyone,? she said. ?Our goal as a congregation is to give people a good start on 2021. https://ripmedicaldebt.org/about/ bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 17:43:42 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 09:43:42 -0800 Subject: [ExI] from Premium This is True In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They're not the first I've heard doing it. https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/06/technology/john-oliver-medical-debt/index.html is a famous instance of this from a few years ago. On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 9:11 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > *This sounds terrific, but of course I cannot vouch for the organization > whose link is below:* > > *Love Thy Neighbor:* The Rev. Minna Bothwell asked the congregation of > the Capitol Hill Lutheran Church in Des Moines, Iowa, to think about how > the church could expand their mission. What nonprofit could they fund that > would be in keeping with their Biblical ideals? The congregation suggested > an organization that buys up medical debt, and then forgives the people who > owed it: they walk away with no debt, and no more creditors calling. The > church called RIP Medical Debt and asked ?how much money it would take to > forgive all the medical debt in Polk County,? Bothwell said. ?They > responded, ?With what you have, you could forgive [medical] debt in all of > Iowa?.? It only took about $8,000 for the church to fund the organization > in buying up $5 million worth of medical debt owed by Iowans. ?We?ve seen > firsthand what debt has done to families, and how hard it can be,? Rev. > Bothwell said. It was so easy, the church is now raising $15,000 to zero > out all the medical debt in Missouri. ?2020 has been a rough year for > everyone,? she said. ?Our goal as a congregation is to give people a good > start on 2021. > > https://ripmedicaldebt.org/about/ > > bill w > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 19:15:54 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 14:15:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] from Premium This is True In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://ripmedicaldebt.org/john-oliver-medical-debt/ John Oliver on HBO uses RIP to Forgive nearly $15M in Medical Debt for 9,000 Americans. The 20-minute ?Debt Buying? segment originated June 5, 2016, on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver. NEW YORK ? A June 5 segment of the HBO hit comedy series, Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, featured the RIP Medical Debt charity forgiving nearly $15 million worth of donated medical debt for around 9,000 people ? a new giveaway record for American television. John Oliver brought attention to debt industry abuses and the specific issue of unpaid medical debt. John Oliver reported that American households collectively owe more than $12 trillion in debt, with $436 billion at least 90 days overdue. He presented LWT?s investigation of the debt buying industry, airing video from a hidden camera at a professional conference. A debt buyer on the platform observed how debtors are ignorant of their rights as consumers. Oliver set out to show how ?disturbingly easy? it is to start a company that can purchase debt cheaply and collect it aggressively, including debt no longer due under law. LWT registered a debt-buying company in Mississippi for $50, naming John Oliver as the Chairman of the Board, calling the company Central Asset Recovery Professionals, Inc. ? CARP, the bottom-feeding fish. CARP located and purchased from Texas for about $60,000 a medical debt portfolio worth $14,922,261.76 ? paying less than a half-cent on the dollar. Oliver said the portfolio held the names, current addresses and Social Security numbers for about 9.000 accounts. CARP could legally send collection agents to hound these people. Oliver and LWT instead donated that $14.9 million portfolio to the debt-forgiving charity, RIP Medical Debt. In the finale, John Oliver stood before a wildly cheering live studio audience with millions watching on TV and online. Amid a triumphant fanfare he grandly pushed a giant red button. Dazzling lights flashed as paper bills fluttered down like confetti. John Oliver through RIP instantly abolished nearly $15 million in unpaid medical debt. Gone. For good. John Oliver?s giveaway surpassed Oprah Winfrey?s 2004 TV record of giving almost $8 million worth of GM cars to everybody in her audience, creating the iconic ?You get a car!? meme. RIP?s forgiveness of LWT?s ?$15 million? worth of medical debt set a new record for television. ?This is only going to help the 9,000 people whose medical debt we bought,? Oliver remarked at the outset of the blowoff. ?The larger issue is, we need much clearer rules and tougher oversight to protect consumers from potentially predatory companies like the one we set up.? RIP Medical Debt board member Robert Goff blogged that RIP deeply appreciates national awareness of medical debt. ?We are grateful for an opportunity to be involved with a comedian who wanted to give 9,000 people the last laugh.? On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 12:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > They're not the first I've heard doing it. > https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/06/technology/john-oliver-medical-debt/index.html > is a famous instance of this from a few years ago. > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2020 at 9:11 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> *This sounds terrific, but of course I cannot vouch for the organization >> whose link is below:* >> >> *Love Thy Neighbor:* The Rev. Minna Bothwell asked the congregation of >> the Capitol Hill Lutheran Church in Des Moines, Iowa, to think about how >> the church could expand their mission. What nonprofit could they fund that >> would be in keeping with their Biblical ideals? The congregation suggested >> an organization that buys up medical debt, and then forgives the people who >> owed it: they walk away with no debt, and no more creditors calling. The >> church called RIP Medical Debt and asked ?how much money it would take to >> forgive all the medical debt in Polk County,? Bothwell said. ?They >> responded, ?With what you have, you could forgive [medical] debt in all of >> Iowa?.? It only took about $8,000 for the church to fund the organization >> in buying up $5 million worth of medical debt owed by Iowans. ?We?ve seen >> firsthand what debt has done to families, and how hard it can be,? Rev. >> Bothwell said. It was so easy, the church is now raising $15,000 to zero >> out all the medical debt in Missouri. ?2020 has been a rough year for >> everyone,? she said. ?Our goal as a congregation is to give people a good >> start on 2021. >> >> https://ripmedicaldebt.org/about/ >> >> bill w >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 08:50:07 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 16:50:07 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Autonomous Ravn X Drone to Launch Satellites From Airport Runways / Technology Co-ops for the everyman Message-ID: "Huntsville Alabama?s Lowe Mill arts and entertainment center offers studios to artists of all kinds?sculptors, bookbinders, woodworkers. It?s the kind of place where, in more normal times, visitors might wander open studios and take ceramics classes. It?s also, evidently, the kind of place where one designs autonomous drones to launch rockets. Lowe Mill, you see, is owned by angel investor, Jim Hudson, and the headquarters of one of Hudson?s investments occupies 7,000 square feet at the former textile mill. The startup, Aevum, just unveiled the product of years of work?a sleek rocket-launching aircraft called Ravn X." This is an amazing story both in terms of this gigantic drone and what it does, and also because of the wonderful Lowe Mill Arts and Entertainment Center, from which it sprouted... Is there an equally good center of creativity in California? In Phoenix, I liked to hang out at my local "Heatsync Labs," which was small but had a ton of cool equipment crammed into a small space, along with lots of awesome people there. In the Philippines, they do have technology co-ops, to my surprise, despite the poverty. https://singularityhub.com/2020/12/21/autonomous-ravn-x-drone-to-launch-satellites-from-airport-runways/ John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 08:53:52 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 16:53:52 +0800 Subject: [ExI] =?utf-8?q?QuantumScape=E2=80=99s_New_Solid-State_Battery_I?= =?utf-8?q?s_Twice_as_Energy-Dense_as_Lithium-Ion?= Message-ID: "Claims of ?revolutionary? new battery technologies are a dime a dozen these days, but none so far have come close to knocking lithium-ion off its perch. Its balance of cost and energy density are hard to beat, and with prices still dropping fast , it?s the go-to technology for everything from smartphones to drones. So when battery startup QuantumScape announced in September that it had cracked the ?Holy Grail? of battery technology?a solid-state lithium metal battery?it didn?t generate much buzz. Now, though, the company has released performance results?and people are starting to pay attention. The data shows the batteries can charge to 80 percent capacity in just 15 minutes, have nearly double the energy density of top commercial lithium-ion cells, retain more than 80 percent of their capacity after 800 cycles, and don?t set on fire (something lithium-ion batteries have a habit of doing). ?We believe that the performance data we?ve unveiled today shows that solid-state batteries have the potential to narrow the gap between electric vehicles and internal combustion vehicles and help enable electric vehicles to become the world?s dominant form of transportation,? Jagdeep Singh, founder & CEO of QuantumScape, said in a press release." Is this the big battery breakthrough we have all been waiting for so long to happen? https://singularityhub.com/2020/12/20/quantumscapes-new-solid-state-battery-is-twice-as-energy-dense-as-lithium-ion/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 09:17:04 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 17:17:04 +0800 Subject: [ExI] China is opening the world's largest radio telescope up to international scientists Message-ID: "Following the collapse of the historic *Arecibo Observatory* in Puerto Rico, China has opened the biggest radio telescope in the world up to international scientists. In Pingtang, Guizhou province stands the *Five-hundred-meter Aperture Spherical Telescope* (FAST), the largest radio telescope in the world, surpassing the Arecibo Observatory, which stood as the largest in the world for 53 years before the construction of FAST was completed in 2016. Following two cable failures earlier this year, Arecibo's radio telescope *collapsed in November* , shutting down the observatory for good. Now, FAST is opening its doors to astronomers from around the world. " And what would the long-term CCP motives be? Lol https://www.livescience.com/china-fast-radio-telescope-open-international-scientists.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 18:44:04 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 05:44:04 +1100 Subject: [ExI] China is opening the world's largest radio telescope up to international scientists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Dec 2020 at 20:17, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "Following the collapse of the historic *Arecibo Observatory* > in Puerto Rico, > China has opened the biggest radio telescope in the world up to > international scientists. > > In Pingtang, Guizhou province stands the *Five-hundred-meter Aperture > Spherical Telescope* > > (FAST), the largest radio telescope in the world, surpassing the Arecibo > Observatory, which stood as the largest in the world for 53 years before > the construction of FAST was completed in 2016. Following two cable > failures earlier this year, Arecibo's radio telescope *collapsed in > November* > , > shutting down the observatory for good. Now, FAST is opening its doors to > astronomers from around the world. " > And what would the long-term CCP motives be? Lol > They?re trying to show the world that they?re good guys by doing good deeds. It?s a form of propaganda, but so what? -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 22:27:45 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 22:27:45 +0000 Subject: [ExI] The Milky Way is probably full of dead civilizations Message-ID: The Milky Way is probably full of dead civilizations By Rafi Letzter 19 Dec, 2020 Quote: That's the takeaway of a new study, published Dec. 14 to the arXiv database, which used modern astronomy and statistical modeling to map the emergence and death of intelligent life in time and space across the Milky Way. Their results amount to a more precise 2020 update of a famous equation that Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence founder Frank Drake wrote in 1961. The authors looked at a range of factors presumed to influence the development of intelligent life, such as the prevalence of sunlike stars harboring Earth-like planets; the frequency of deadly, radiation-blasting supernovas; the probability of and time necessary for intelligent life to evolve if conditions are right; and the possible tendency of advanced civilizations to destroy themselves. ------- This last bit is the most uncertain variable in the paper; how often do civilizations kill themselves? But it's also the most important in determining how widespread civilization is, the researchers found. Even an extraordinarily low chance of a given civilization wiping itself out in any given century ? say, via nuclear holocaust or runaway climate change ? would mean that the overwhelming majority of peak Milky Way civilizations are already gone. ------- The problem is the long timescales. Can civilisations ever continue for billions of years? BillK From dsunley at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 23:12:46 2020 From: dsunley at gmail.com (Darin Sunley) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 16:12:46 -0700 Subject: [ExI] The Milky Way is probably full of dead civilizations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Have you wondered why there are so many dead worlds out there? Let me tell you why. It?s because despite the best advice of people who /know/ what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most /massively stupid/ things." ? Galen to Captain Gideon. Babylon 5: Crusade On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 3:31 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The Milky Way is probably full of dead civilizations > By Rafi Letzter 19 Dec, 2020 > > > > Quote: > That's the takeaway of a new study, published Dec. 14 to the arXiv > database, which used modern astronomy and statistical modeling to map > the emergence and death of intelligent life in time and space across > the Milky Way. Their results amount to a more precise 2020 update of a > famous equation that Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence founder > Frank Drake wrote in 1961. > > The authors looked at a range of factors presumed to influence the > development of intelligent life, such as the prevalence of sunlike > stars harboring Earth-like planets; the frequency of deadly, > radiation-blasting supernovas; the probability of and time necessary > for intelligent life to evolve if conditions are right; and the > possible tendency of advanced civilizations to destroy themselves. > ------- > This last bit is the most uncertain variable in the paper; how often > do civilizations kill themselves? But it's also the most important in > determining how widespread civilization is, the researchers found. > Even an extraordinarily low chance of a given civilization wiping > itself out in any given century ? say, via nuclear holocaust or > runaway climate change ? would mean that the overwhelming majority of > peak Milky Way civilizations are already gone. > ------- > > The problem is the long timescales. Can civilisations ever continue for > billions of years? > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 03:38:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:38:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] reason and intuition Message-ID: I'll ask y'all for opinions, since I made this Quora answer up. I based it on my knowledge, but I went further than that and want opinions on it. Reason and intuition are different and separate words, but the processes aren?t. Intuition comes from the unconscious and mixes in with whatever is in your conscious mind at the time, which also has unconscious input. Now the conscious ego has to put it all together and come up with something. If you can put it all together with words, then we usually call it reason. If you often can?t explain your decisions you call it intuition Intuition is often a first and quick thing, and is fairly often wrong or at least incomplete. Answer 'Can you trust your intuition?' - you can?t trust any of it. Take a look at wikipedia and search for ?cognitive biases and errors? and you will find dozens of them, all common. One of the most common ones are to assume that your reasoning is valid or your intuition is always true. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 03:56:12 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:56:12 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hiccups Message-ID: I had then four times today - dunno why. Finally I went online and found a new remedy - or new to me: Get a cloth and hold your tongue until it hurts pretty good. Stopped the hiccups immediately. Good to know. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Thu Dec 24 04:10:29 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid Message-ID: Friends, I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for covid-19. This could put a damper in my life extension plans :-/ I had worked only a partial day the prior day which was Monday due to recovering from what I thought was a cold that had me in bed most of Saturday and Sunday. From what I can figure out, I likely caught it Tuesday and became symptomatic on Thursday. I didn?t feel great but was able to telework Friday while taking long breaks to lie down. I have to screen my many direct reports daily for covid at work and am thus familiar with the symptoms. I didn?t think I had it because I never had a fever, never had loss of smell, and never had gastrointestinal symptoms. If my timing is right, even 9 days after catching it, I still have fatigue, headaches, congestion, and body aches. A sore throat ended over the weekend. My partner who has it too is experiencing a sore throat, congestion, and aches. No fevers for her either. I?m taking extra vitamin D and NAIDs. I just read about fenofibrate being potentially helpful today https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp/0Y5mrPI7 I?d love to avoid some lung damage. I welcome any other suggestions for damage control. I feel like I?m getting better. But I?m definitely still sick. I?m grateful I don?t seem to have too severe a case or complications... yet. I do have risk factors for complications. I?m not in the clear yet. My two sons don?t have their test results back. They stay at their mother?s part of the time too. I think one of them has it. Depending on those results, it may be an even more isolated xmas now for me. Damn covid! -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 04:17:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 20:17:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] hiccups I had then four times today - dunno why. Finally I went online and found a new remedy - or new to me: Get a cloth and hold your tongue until it hurts pretty good. Stopped the hiccups immediately. Good to know. bill w I used to get them occasionally but they went away by themselves. Exactly once in my life I had them so bad they hurt. It went on for hours. I tried all the known remedies (this was about 30 yrs ago before the internet was a thing.) Finally called my mother, she said get a type of cocktail mixer called bitters, pour a little in a saucer, cut a lemon in half, put the lemon cut-side down in the bitters then suck the lemon. I went to the liquor store first and was going out toward the grocery store to get the lemon when I decided to try just tasting the bitters. I took in only a few drops and oh it was awful but the hiccups were gone instantly. Never came back, never had them since, not even once. That few drops of bitters stopped the hiccups forever. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 04:23:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 20:23:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007b01d6d9ac$8522eff0$8f68cfd0$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Henry Rivera via extropy-chat Friends, I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for covid-19. ?Damn covid! -Henry Henry best wishes for a speedy recovery. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 04:39:12 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:39:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <007b01d6d9ac$8522eff0$8f68cfd0$@rainier66.com> References: <007b01d6d9ac$8522eff0$8f68cfd0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: +1. Get better soon. On Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 11:28 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *?*> *On Behalf Of *Henry Rivera via extropy-chat > > > > Friends, > > I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for > covid-19. ?Damn covid! > > > > -Henry > > > > > > > > Henry best wishes for a speedy recovery. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 04:49:22 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 20:49:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <361CC7FD-6CD6-4882-A0F1-D5D61912B5C1@gmail.com> Hoping you get well soon. Everyone else: please be extra careful. Regards, Dan > On Dec 23, 2020, at 8:13 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat wrote: > > Friends, > > I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for covid-19. This could put a damper in my life extension plans :-/ > > I had worked only a partial day the prior day which was Monday due to recovering from what I thought was a cold that had me in bed most of Saturday and Sunday. From what I can figure out, I likely caught it Tuesday and became symptomatic on Thursday. I didn?t feel great but was able to telework Friday while taking long breaks to lie down. > > I have to screen my many direct reports daily for covid at work and am thus familiar with the symptoms. I didn?t think I had it because I never had a fever, never had loss of smell, and never had gastrointestinal symptoms. > > If my timing is right, even 9 days after catching it, I still have fatigue, headaches, congestion, and body aches. A sore throat ended over the weekend. My partner who has it too is experiencing a sore throat, congestion, and aches. No fevers for her either. > > I?m taking extra vitamin D and NAIDs. I just read about fenofibrate being potentially helpful today https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp/0Y5mrPI7 I?d love to avoid some lung damage. I welcome any other suggestions for damage control. I feel like I?m getting better. But I?m definitely still sick. I?m grateful I don?t seem to have too severe a case or complications... yet. I do have risk factors for complications. I?m not in the clear yet. > > My two sons don?t have their test results back. They stay at their mother?s part of the time too. I think one of them has it. Depending on those results, it may be an even more isolated xmas now for me. Damn covid! > > -Henry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 05:26:09 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:26:09 +0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <361CC7FD-6CD6-4882-A0F1-D5D61912B5C1@gmail.com> References: <361CC7FD-6CD6-4882-A0F1-D5D61912B5C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: My younger brother (in his early forties) got Covid, and was sick as a dog for a week, but is much better now. His young sons never got it. But he complains of occasional brain fog, which is scary and will hopefully fade soon. A good friend of mine has an aunt (late sixties) who is in the hospital with it, and struggling. At the state owned retirement home where my mother lives in Alaska, the facility is in a very smart lockdown. They are not taking chances with the lives of the seniors who live there. Food is dropped off at the doors of the residents. There will be no Christmas party, but frequent visitors speak through the doors to bring holiday cheer. My Filipina significant other and her employer take the pandemic seriously, and she looks ready for surgery when she goes out the door. She is afraid of getting me infected, since I am about a decade older than her. But when we went shopping the other day, I noticed about twenty percent of the people when outside, using their face mask as a chin diaper. John On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 12:52 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Hoping you get well soon. > > Everyone else: please be extra careful. > > Regards, > > Dan > > On Dec 23, 2020, at 8:13 PM, Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Friends, > > I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for > covid-19. This could put a damper in my life extension plans :-/ > > I had worked only a partial day the prior day which was Monday due to > recovering from what I thought was a cold that had me in bed most of > Saturday and Sunday. From what I can figure out, I likely caught it Tuesday > and became symptomatic on Thursday. I didn?t feel great but was able to > telework Friday while taking long breaks to lie down. > > I have to screen my many direct reports daily for covid at work and am > thus familiar with the symptoms. I didn?t think I had it because I never > had a fever, never had loss of smell, and never had gastrointestinal > symptoms. > > If my timing is right, even 9 days after catching it, I still have > fatigue, headaches, congestion, and body aches. A sore throat ended over > the weekend. My partner who has it too is experiencing a sore throat, > congestion, and aches. No fevers for her either. > > I?m taking extra vitamin D and NAIDs. I just read about fenofibrate being > potentially helpful today https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp/0Y5mrPI7 > I?d love to avoid some lung > damage. I welcome any other suggestions for damage control. I feel like I?m > getting better. But I?m definitely still sick. I?m grateful I don?t seem to > have too severe a case or complications... yet. I do have risk factors for > complications. I?m not in the clear yet. > > My two sons don?t have their test results back. They stay at their > mother?s part of the time too. I think one of them has it. Depending on > those results, it may be an even more isolated xmas now for me. Damn covid! > > -Henry > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 05:28:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:28:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't have much of a taste for hot peppers, but once I thought I would try a habanero. I cooked it and cut it into bits and put it on a pizza. One bite: I had hiccups for 24 hours. bill On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 10:22 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] hiccups > > > > I had then four times today - dunno why. Finally I went online and found > a new remedy - or new to me: > > > > Get a cloth and hold your tongue until it hurts pretty good. Stopped the > hiccups immediately. Good to know. > > > > bill w > > > > > > > > I used to get them occasionally but they went away by themselves. Exactly > once in my life I had them so bad they hurt. It went on for hours. > > > > I tried all the known remedies (this was about 30 yrs ago before the > internet was a thing.) Finally called my mother, she said get a type of > cocktail mixer called bitters, pour a little in a saucer, cut a lemon in > half, put the lemon cut-side down in the bitters then suck the lemon. > > > > I went to the liquor store first and was going out toward the grocery > store to get the lemon when I decided to try just tasting the bitters. I > took in only a few drops and oh it was awful but the hiccups were gone > instantly. Never came back, never had them since, not even once. That few > drops of bitters stopped the hiccups forever. > > > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 05:31:18 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:31:18 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good luck with it. I have read just yesterday about taking more vitamin D3 - a lot more - tons of it. bill w On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 10:13 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Friends, > > I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for > covid-19. This could put a damper in my life extension plans :-/ > > I had worked only a partial day the prior day which was Monday due to > recovering from what I thought was a cold that had me in bed most of > Saturday and Sunday. From what I can figure out, I likely caught it Tuesday > and became symptomatic on Thursday. I didn?t feel great but was able to > telework Friday while taking long breaks to lie down. > > I have to screen my many direct reports daily for covid at work and am > thus familiar with the symptoms. I didn?t think I had it because I never > had a fever, never had loss of smell, and never had gastrointestinal > symptoms. > > If my timing is right, even 9 days after catching it, I still have > fatigue, headaches, congestion, and body aches. A sore throat ended over > the weekend. My partner who has it too is experiencing a sore throat, > congestion, and aches. No fevers for her either. > > I?m taking extra vitamin D and NAIDs. I just read about fenofibrate being > potentially helpful today https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp/0Y5mrPI7 > I?d love to avoid some lung > damage. I welcome any other suggestions for damage control. I feel like I?m > getting better. But I?m definitely still sick. I?m grateful I don?t seem to > have too severe a case or complications... yet. I do have risk factors for > complications. I?m not in the clear yet. > > My two sons don?t have their test results back. They stay at their > mother?s part of the time too. I think one of them has it. Depending on > those results, it may be an even more isolated xmas now for me. Damn covid! > > -Henry > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 06:26:14 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 00:26:14 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you been wearing a mask? Anybody around you wearing them? bill w On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 10:13 PM Henry Rivera via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Friends, > > I was surprised to learn yesterday while at work that I?m positive for > covid-19. This could put a damper in my life extension plans :-/ > > I had worked only a partial day the prior day which was Monday due to > recovering from what I thought was a cold that had me in bed most of > Saturday and Sunday. From what I can figure out, I likely caught it Tuesday > and became symptomatic on Thursday. I didn?t feel great but was able to > telework Friday while taking long breaks to lie down. > > I have to screen my many direct reports daily for covid at work and am > thus familiar with the symptoms. I didn?t think I had it because I never > had a fever, never had loss of smell, and never had gastrointestinal > symptoms. > > If my timing is right, even 9 days after catching it, I still have > fatigue, headaches, congestion, and body aches. A sore throat ended over > the weekend. My partner who has it too is experiencing a sore throat, > congestion, and aches. No fevers for her either. > > I?m taking extra vitamin D and NAIDs. I just read about fenofibrate being > potentially helpful today https://h5.newsbreakapp.com/mp/0Y5mrPI7 > I?d love to avoid some lung > damage. I welcome any other suggestions for damage control. I feel like I?m > getting better. But I?m definitely still sick. I?m grateful I don?t seem to > have too severe a case or complications... yet. I do have risk factors for > complications. I?m not in the clear yet. > > My two sons don?t have their test results back. They stay at their > mother?s part of the time too. I think one of them has it. Depending on > those results, it may be an even more isolated xmas now for me. Damn covid! > > -Henry > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 06:40:49 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:40:49 +0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: And yet despite the relatively benign nature of Covid compared to some other viruses, 326,000 Americans have died of it, including over 3,000 healthcare professionals and a grand total of around 1.7 million worldwide. It may not seem like many, unless a loved one of yours was one of those who perished from it. And keep in mind that a fair number of Covid survivors may have permanent damage to their brains or other organs. I have known enough people to get nailed by it, that I feel like an invisible boogieman is stalking the Earth. I agree that the lockdowns are bad in that they cause financial suffocation for many people, especially the poor, and small businesses. For a long time, the powers that be seemed oblivious to this fact. And our politicians, such as human scumbag Mitch McConnell, have not done their part to properly help struggling average Americans. The current stimulus package is far less than it should be. I think in the future we need intelligent leadership/control at the federal level, rather than letting each state decide how they want to respond to a growing pandemic. And despite the fact China/CCP sat on their hands for three weeks and let Covid infect the world, we need to examine how they managed to successfully control and eliminate the disease outbreak from their nation. I can't get over how so many people want to be the rebel and not wear a face mask properly when outside their home. Or think social distancing is just asking too much. I hope we can globally learn from the many mistakes made in handling Covid. Because if there is a next time, and there probably will be, we could face a much more lethal but equally contagious virus, which leaves tens of millions dead. And I hope somehow, someway, the CCP is punished/disciplined for letting the Covid virus get out of control and terrorize the world. They knew what was going on at the top, but they chose to sit on their hands and be concerned about appearances, rather than taking strong swift action to stop Covid from becoming a global menace. The U.S., Europe and the rest of the world should seize Chinese owned assets in their nations, as a form of reparations for the massive economic losses and the lost human lives. John On Mon, Dec 21, 2020 at 5:46 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 08:14, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> On 2020-12-19 10:46, Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat wrote: >> > Previous SARS outbreaks have been contained and eliminated >> > because they were localised and it was possible to do this. >> >> Seems to me I've read that they were less contagious (smaller R?). > > > More severe, less contagious. > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 06:53:16 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:53:16 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Japanese education In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Public schools in Japan sound pretty horrific. But how much of this still holds true? I have heard that on the positive side, students learn to take pride in their school by daily cleaning it up. I think that would have been a good experience for the kids I went to school with... I wonder if the Japanese school system is one of the major factors regarding the deep decline in marriage and childbearing over there. It seems like it could be. I've read that South Korean highschools have a great deal of student versus student violence, more so than Japan. John On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 12:43 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > From a much longer post on Quora. Aren't you glad you are an American? > bill w > > > Japan has the highest teenage suicide rate in the entire world and the one > and only thing which can be blamed for this is the Japanese Education > System. South Korea is next. > > First thing that happens when one enters junior high school is the process > of self criticism. Students are guided to lose their self-esteem and ego by > forcing upon them strict rules and simple tasks. This way, teens would be > prevented from becoming rebellious against their mentor. Strict rules apply > to places not only within the school limits but to daily life as well. > > In case of what I?ve experienced, > > -No dating allowed > > -No volunteer activity allowed without the approval of the school > principal > > -No part-time jobs allowed unless the financial situation forces the > subject to. In this case, a written permission from both parents, homeroom > teacher and school principal are required along with a strict review of the > labor contract > > -One must not meet with the opposite sex other than for academic proposes > such as Jukus (Japanese cram school), extracurricular activities, and > examinations (I was enrolled in a boys school) > > -No traveling allowed without the permission of the school authority. > When approved, one must act according to the schedule approved by the > school. > > -No eating in public spaces even when the subject is outside the school > boundaries > > -Route to school must be submitted and students may only act accordingly > every day to and from school > > -Strict dress code which must be followed in and out of school > > -No electronic devices allowed -No possession of smartphones allowed. When > cell phones are necessary as a communication with the student and its > parents, only the traditional types are allowed. > > These are just handful of rules I can think of. Honestly, there are some > rules that are legitimate and most of the rules exist to avoid unnecessary > difficulties the teen might encounter. However, most of the rules are just > against the liberty of the people in my opinion. > > Also, there are considerable amount of physical punishment applied in > Japanese school and also from parents. Some students get beaten by > teachers just because their ties were not properly tied. I remember > getting beaten up by my parents for not been able to solve a math problem > right. On my first mistake, I get spanked once. On my second mistake, I get > spanked twice. On my third mistake, I get spanked thrice, and so on until > both get physically tired or get bruised. I was lucky because only a decade > ago, people used to cane students for incorrect answers, although this was > banned. Yet, every so often, in the news, somewhere in Japan, a student > would get beaten to death as ?punishment? from teachers often for reasons > like ?forgetting to bring something? or ?sneezing during an important > speech? etc. This is just one phantom of the Japanese empire during World > War Two still influencing Japanese society.What about me? I was lucky > enough not to be born in ?that? generation? One of my language arts teacher > was a professional junior Kendo player. However, his language arts teacher > had a policy which, if they answered incorrectly to an answer, students, > regardless of gender, would be slammed by a bamboo sword. As being slammed > by a bamboo sword by an amateur was the worst thing possible as a > professional, he studied super hard and became a lone survivor of that > punishment. As a result, he got a job as a Language arts teacher. Oh, the > irony! > > Thus, people start losing their ego and commit suicide as a result. > > In short, Japanese education is a system which makes individuals into an > economic machine. Children before enrollment have lots of dreams like > participating in a volunteer activity, being a game developer, doctor, > scientist to solve a particular problem, etc. The function of the system is > to crush all of those hopes and extract the ?individual? out to the > collective. By the end of the process, the students would have lost most of > their self so that they can be exploited by major corporations and > government official. That's how the Japanese economy worked in the post war > economic Growth. However, those days are over. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 07:36:58 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:36:58 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down Message-ID: "If you?re a former user of Yahoo Groups, and there are specific group members you wish to stay in contact with, it sounds like the only option is to exchange contact information. For those seeking alternatives to Yahoo Groups, the company?s top recommendations is Nextdoor. There?s even a help page about transferring a Yahoo Group to a Nextdoor Group. Yahoo also points to Facebook Groups, Google Groups, and Groups.io as potential alternatives." Anyone nostalgic? Is this the end of an era? https://www.searchenginejournal.com/yahoo-groups-to-fully-shut-down-on-december-15-2020/384313/ John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 24 08:13:22 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 00:13:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-23 21:28, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I don't have much of a taste for hot peppers, but once I thought I would > try a habanero.? I cooked it and cut it into bits and put it on a > pizza.? One bite:? I had hiccups for 24 hours.? bill I used to get hiccups from Trader Jos?'s Salsa Autentica, though not recently. ... Fever this evening. I hope it's from the flu shot. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 11:40:06 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:40:06 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:29 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Have you been wearing a mask? Anybody around you wearing them? bill w > ### I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been proven useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 11:49:22 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:49:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 1:50 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > It?s certain that a complete lockdown where everyone stays home for six > weeks will eliminate the virus. That isn?t practical, so it has to be a > partial lockdown. But a partial lockdown that is insufficiently stringent > may be more prolonged and cause economic harm for little benefit. There is > a certain optimal level of restriction which is to be determined > empirically and perhaps through mathematical modelling. > >> ### I don't need modeling to know that it's impossible to completely lock down 8 billion people for six weeks (BTW, why six weeks? That's a completely bogus duration, too). If only one chain of infection survives the lockdown, you are back to square one regarding the pandemic except for the tens of trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives lost to such a global lockdown. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 11:52:12 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:52:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 1:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > OK, not certain, but very likely. Previous SARS outbreaks have been > contained and eliminated because they were localised and it was possible to > do this. It?s not possible to do it with the current pandemic given that > the virus has spread throughout the world. In Australia it had effectively > been eliminated (no infections and no active cases for months) but has > taken off again via cases from travellers in quarantine. > ### SARS was not genetically modified to be highly contagious which is why it petered out mostly on its own. The case of Australia indeed shows the futility of lockdowns in a global economy. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gordon.swobe at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 10:34:22 2020 From: gordon.swobe at gmail.com (Gordon Swobe) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 03:34:22 -0700 Subject: [ExI] reason and intuition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 8:42 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Now the conscious ego has to put it all together and come up with > something. If you can put it all together with words, then we usually call > it reason. If you often can?t explain your decisions you call it intuition > This reminds me of the philosopher Davd Hume who said reason is a slave to the passions. "Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them." -Treatise on Human Nature, David Hume -gts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 12:02:56 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:02:56 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Tansin Versus Tavir Message-ID: We have a SCOTUS who issued a unanimous decision on a provision underlying qualified immunity. Now citizens can sue government workers for breach of the Constitution for damages. A group of Muslim men were punished after they refused to spy on Muslims for the government. They were placed on the No Fly list which cost several of them jobs. The article says that the SCOTUS decision of 1982 to create qualified immunity was overriding the Constitution. Many of you may know the importance of this more than I and I would like to hear some reactions to this decision. A victory for the common person against the federal government - that has to be monumental -historical, the article called it. And don't forget: unanimous. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 12:04:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:04:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been proven useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. Rafal I read where the governor of Kansas issued a mandate but the legislature voted to make it optional by counties. So they did. The infection rate in the counties that did not follow the mandate was 100% increase. In the counties that followed it, it was 6 percent. What more do you need? bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:43 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:29 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Have you been wearing a mask? Anybody around you wearing them? bill w >> > > ### I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been > proven useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 12:08:44 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 06:08:44 -0600 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Here is what I think: All businesses stay open, but limit the number of customers and maintain distances and require masks for all. Plenty of places have done this with no infections, is what I read. It is irrefutable that big meetings in churches or wherever that do not follow these guidelines have been spreaders and superspreaders. Correct me if I am wrong. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 6:01 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 1:50 PM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> >> OK, not certain, but very likely. Previous SARS outbreaks have been >> contained and eliminated because they were localised and it was possible to >> do this. It?s not possible to do it with the current pandemic given that >> the virus has spread throughout the world. In Australia it had effectively >> been eliminated (no infections and no active cases for months) but has >> taken off again via cases from travellers in quarantine. >> > > ### SARS was not genetically modified to be highly contagious which is why > it petered out mostly on its own. The case of Australia indeed shows the > futility of lockdowns in a global economy. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 12:39:03 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 12:39:03 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Fake videos are spreading everywhere Message-ID: The year deepfakes went mainstream In 2020, AI-synthetic media started moving away from the darker corners of the internet. by Karen Hao and Will Douglas Heaven December 24, 2020 The software can now replace the face in any video with a celebrity or politician and make them say anything you want. Seeing isn't believing any longer. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 13:29:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 07:29:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Fake videos are spreading everywhere In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Seeing isn't believing any longer. BillK It never should have been, anyway. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 6:44 AM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > The year deepfakes went mainstream > In 2020, AI-synthetic media started moving away from the darker > corners of the internet. > by Karen Hao and Will Douglas Heaven December 24, 2020 > > < > https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/12/24/1015380/best-ai-deepfakes-of-2020/ > > > > The software can now replace the face in any video with a celebrity or > politician and make them say anything you want. > Seeing isn't believing any longer. > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 24 14:14:52 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:14:52 +0000 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> On 23/12/2020 22:28, bill w wrote: > Biden says that we are going to punish Russia for its role in the > hacking of government computers. > > Well, that's spying, and doesn't everyone do it - like us?? I'll bet > we are hacking away at North Korea's, Russia's, China's, computers and > problem a lot more.? Remember when we were spying on our friends in > Britain and Germany? > > What about this isn't just business as usual? > Well, I'd say, yes, it is hypocracy, and yes, it is business as usual. And what makes you think your govt. isn't still spying on britain and germany? Of course they are. They are spying on everyone that they think they can get away with spying on, including americans. A politician saying X should be punished for naughty behaviour Y is just a politician doing politics: being seen to be doing something that they think will be popular. When politicians start doing things that will actually be effective, instead of saying they will do things that they think will be popular, then I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, as you say, business as usual. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 15:10:38 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 07:10:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] hiccups I don't have much of a taste for hot peppers, but once I thought I would try a habanero. I cooked it and cut it into bits and put it on a pizza. One bite: I had hiccups for 24 hours. Bill Hey cool, we can have a contest. Find something that gives you hiccups (such as habaneros) and something that stops it (such as bitters) and then mix them, see which one wins. Alternative: see who can start and stop the hiccups the most times in an hour. Eat the pepper, must hiccup at least three times to qualify, stop them, for at least one minute is one cycle, see who can do the most cycles or the fastest cycles. Humanity benefits: we get to learn the best ways to stop and start hiccups. Granted it is not at all clear the reason why one would intentionally start that annoying phenomenon, but knowing how to stop it would be good. Kinda interesting aside: humans cohabitate with exactly two species of beast enough to knew a lotta lotta about those two. So we know of one non-human species which can get hiccups and one which does not: dog do, cats don?t. Whyzat? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 15:25:50 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:25:50 +0000 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 at 15:15, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Hey cool, we can have a contest. Find something that gives you hiccups (such as habaneros) and something that stops it (such as bitters) and then mix them, see which one wins. > > > Kinda interesting aside: humans cohabitate with exactly two species of beast enough to knew a lotta lotta about those two. So we know of one non-human species which can get hiccups and one which does not: dog do, cats don?t. Whyzat? > > spike > _______________________________________________ Tut, tut! You should know by now before making claims like that to do a search - "Do cats get hiccups?" :) BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 15:30:09 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 07:30:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat ? >?Yahoo also points to Facebook Groups, Google Groups, and Groups.io as potential alternatives." >?Anyone nostalgic? Is this the end of an era? https://www.searchenginejournal.com/yahoo-groups-to-fully-shut-down-on-december-15-2020/384313/ John I am nostalgic, not for Yahoo but for Marissa Mayer. She?s up there with Dr. Jill Stein. One could google on Marissa, select video, put her on mute, get in the mood, go visit one?s bride, everyone wins. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 15:52:45 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 07:52:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <010501d6da0c$d2889f00$7799dd00$@rainier66.com> ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > Kinda interesting aside: humans cohabitate with exactly two species of beast enough to knew a lotta lotta about those two. So we know of one non-human species which can get hiccups and one which does not: dog do, cats don?t. Whyzat? > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...Tut, tut! You should know by now before making claims like that to do a search - "Do cats get hiccups?" :) BillK _______________________________________________ Well I'll be damn. Cats do get hiccups. I never knew that. I had cats for years, never heard any of them doing it. But one of the six dogs I had used to get them often. Now that I think about it, he was the only one of the six who did. OK. The internet is like having about 30 free IQ points. Not only that: those are my smartest 30 points. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 16:26:34 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:26:34 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: <010501d6da0c$d2889f00$7799dd00$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> <010501d6da0c$d2889f00$7799dd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I cited a bunch of stuff I found on WebMD this morning to a doctor (high white blood cell count - antibiotic) and she fussed at me for using Google although she could not contradict what I found. I suppose they get really tired of hearing the word 'Google' from people who have no idea how to process what they find there. (If only Google could serve as my now defective memory. Yet in some ways it can.) bill w bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:55 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > ...> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat > > > > > Kinda interesting aside: humans cohabitate with exactly two species of > beast enough to knew a lotta lotta about those two. So we know of one > non-human species which can get hiccups and one which does not: dog do, > cats don?t. Whyzat? > > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > > > >...Tut, tut! You should know by now before making claims like that to > do a search - > "Do cats get hiccups?" :) > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > > > Well I'll be damn. Cats do get hiccups. I never knew that. I had cats > for years, never heard any of them doing it. But one of the six dogs I had > used to get them often. Now that I think about it, he was the only one of > the six who did. > > OK. The internet is like having about 30 free IQ points. Not only that: > those are my smartest 30 points. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 16:46:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:46:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> References: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: One could google on Marissa, select video, put her on mute, get in the mood, go visit one?s bride, everyone wins. spike Wait until you get older. Women in clothes won't do it for you anymore. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:37 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *John Grigg via extropy-chat > *?* > > >?Yahoo also points to Facebook Groups, Google Groups, and Groups.io as > potential alternatives." > > >?Anyone nostalgic? Is this the end of an era? > > > > > https://www.searchenginejournal.com/yahoo-groups-to-fully-shut-down-on-december-15-2020/384313/ > > > > John > > > > > > I am nostalgic, not for Yahoo but for Marissa Mayer. She?s up there with > Dr. Jill Stein. One could google on Marissa, select video, put her on mute, > get in the mood, go visit one?s bride, everyone wins. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 16:48:54 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:48:54 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> References: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Ben, I have long wondered if politics is a high profession or a low one. I think it can be and we have some good people - who are greatly outnumbered by the corrupt ones. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 8:18 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 23/12/2020 22:28, bill w wrote: > > Biden says that we are going to punish Russia for its role in the hacking > of government computers. > > Well, that's spying, and doesn't everyone do it - like us? I'll bet we > are hacking away at North Korea's, Russia's, China's, computers and problem > a lot more. Remember when we were spying on our friends in Britain and > Germany? > > What about this isn't just business as usual? > > > Well, I'd say, yes, it is hypocracy, and yes, it is business as usual. > > And what makes you think your govt. isn't still spying on britain and > germany? Of course they are. They are spying on everyone that they think > they can get away with spying on, including americans. > > A politician saying X should be punished for naughty behaviour Y is just a > politician doing politics: being seen to be doing something that they think > will be popular. When politicians start doing things that will actually be > effective, instead of saying they will do things that they think will be > popular, then I'll sit up and take notice. Until then, as you say, business > as usual. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 17:22:44 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 09:22:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> <010501d6da0c$d2889f00$7799dd00$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <014a01d6da19$64a08f90$2de1aeb0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2020 8:27 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] hiccups >?I cited a bunch of stuff I found on WebMD this morning to a doctor ? she fussed at me for using Google ? bill w BillW, I can explain what happened there I think. It wasn?t your fault, you did nothing wrong. You were the victim of misbehavior of her other patients. Imagine your doctor, so weary of patients who want to play doctor by going online and finding all the goofy stuff out there, not knowing the difference between Mayo Clinic and mayonnaise (not you BillW (but think of what doctor hears every day from patients who saw ads on TV for this medication or that medication (which should be illegal in itself (BillW, her reaction wasn?t your fault (she was perhaps pre-pissed by her previous patient who wanted a toenail fungus medication as a prophylactic for the common cold (hey, they saw it on TV (and the actor pushing that medication saved many patients on ER.))))))) That isn?t your fault, me lad, and really it isn?t hers either. This is compounded by another problem I present to my own doctor: when a patient has a particular obscure condition or disease, that patient studies up on every aspect of that condition or disease and in that one very narrow area, that patient damn well does know more about that one area than her doctor. This is not the doctor?s fault: there are thousands of common diseases, which the beleaguered doctor is required to master. If a patient has nothing to do but learn about one of them, well sure. In some ways a smart patient is a bigger headache for a doctor than a dumb one. I am guilty: I have read about ivermectin as a possible medication to use for covid. The medical community generally says it doesn?t work, or that we can?t prove that it helps. There is not universal consensus on this, as a few studies suggest that it does help. Depending on the patient, ivermectin has few downsides. More specifically: the downside isn?t that far down there for most patients. I don?t see why not try it if one can get one?s doctor to write a prescription (or one can buy it by other means (it?s a hell of a note when it is legal to buy dope but not prescription meds (which causes people to buy ivermectin from one veterinarian.))) Note that I am not handing out medical advice, which is illegal. Henry, disregard the above please. I ain?t a doctor, don?t even play one on TV. Ivermectin is for one?s pet aardvark or pangolin should one?s pet aardvark or pangolin develop covid. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 17:37:22 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 11:37:22 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: <014a01d6da19$64a08f90$2de1aeb0$@rainier66.com> References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> <00d201d6da06$f0c80e70$d2582b50$@rainier66.com> <010501d6da0c$d2889f00$7799dd00$@rainier66.com> <014a01d6da19$64a08f90$2de1aeb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: You are right, of course. It often doesn't help when you are not only smarter but more knowledgeable (or vice versa). I always say something like "I know you can't keep up on everything, but I found that........." Whether this mollifies them I dunno. I do try. But the fact is that you and I and probably most of our group are smarter than the average physicians. I do sympathize with their inability to keep up with their fields and see dozens or scores of patients a week (and my doctor is often complaining about the paperwork he has to do, esp. with Medicare patients, which is why I have had trouble at times getting a doctor to accept me - I have been turned down, and in one instance, kicked out.) bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 11:25 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Sent:* Thursday, December 24, 2020 8:27 AM > *To:* ExI chat list > *Cc:* William Flynn Wallace > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] hiccups > > > > >?I cited a bunch of stuff I found on WebMD this morning to a doctor ? > she fussed at me for using Google ? > > bill w > > > > > > > > BillW, I can explain what happened there I think. It wasn?t your fault, > you did nothing wrong. You were the victim of misbehavior of her other > patients. > > > > Imagine your doctor, so weary of patients who want to play doctor by going > online and finding all the goofy stuff out there, not knowing the > difference between Mayo Clinic and mayonnaise (not you BillW (but think of > what doctor hears every day from patients who saw ads on TV for this > medication or that medication (which should be illegal in itself (BillW, > her reaction wasn?t your fault (she was perhaps pre-pissed by her previous > patient who wanted a toenail fungus medication as a prophylactic for the > common cold (hey, they saw it on TV (and the actor pushing that medication > saved many patients on ER.))))))) That isn?t your fault, me lad, and > really it isn?t hers either. > > > > This is compounded by another problem I present to my own doctor: when a > patient has a particular obscure condition or disease, that patient studies > up on every aspect of that condition or disease and in that one very narrow > area, that patient damn well does know more about that one area than her > doctor. This is not the doctor?s fault: there are thousands of common > diseases, which the beleaguered doctor is required to master. If a patient > has nothing to do but learn about one of them, well sure. In some ways a > smart patient is a bigger headache for a doctor than a dumb one. > > > > I am guilty: I have read about ivermectin as a possible medication to use > for covid. The medical community generally says it doesn?t work, or that > we can?t prove that it helps. There is not universal consensus on this, as > a few studies suggest that it does help. Depending on the patient, > ivermectin has few downsides. More specifically: the downside isn?t that > far down there for most patients. I don?t see why not try it if one can > get one?s doctor to write a prescription (or one can buy it by other means > (it?s a hell of a note when it is legal to buy dope but not prescription > meds (which causes people to buy ivermectin from one veterinarian.))) Note > that I am not handing out medical advice, which is illegal. Henry, > disregard the above please. I ain?t a doctor, don?t even play one on TV. > Ivermectin is for one?s pet aardvark or pangolin should one?s pet aardvark > or pangolin develop covid. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 17:55:30 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 12:55:30 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice to have the voice of reason back! On Thu, Dec 24, 2020, 6:41 AM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:29 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Have you been wearing a mask? Anybody around you wearing them? bill w >> > > ### I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been > proven useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. > > Rafal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 18:00:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:00:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <018201d6da1e$b5c92260$215b6720$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down One could google on Marissa, select video, put her on mute, get in the mood, go visit one?s bride, everyone wins. spike Wait until you get older. Women in clothes won't do it for you anymore. bill w On the contrary sir. Rather, that hasn?t been my experience. I am older now so I can say with some conviction: over the years, it has very much gone the other direction. When I was in my teens or 20s, muted videos of Dr. Stein and Marissa wouldn?ta done a thing for me. Now all those young shapely women have created videos which are available (free) displaying their wares and skills, but that doesn?t really do it for me anymore. It is too difficult to imagine they would have anything interesting or worthwhile to talk about afterwards. We lads get wisdom far too late in life. I am still waiting for mine. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 24 18:19:07 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:19:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hiccups In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6d9ab$af3d6640$0db832c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-24 00:13, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ... Fever this evening. I hope it's from the flu shot. Dropped from 99.8 to 98.8 in less than half a day. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 24 18:22:41 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:22:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> References: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below or something less than minarchy. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 24 18:36:59 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:36:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:29 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >>?Have you been wearing a mask? Anybody around you wearing them? bill w ### I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been proven useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. Rafal _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid >?Nice to have the voice of reason back! Dylan Ja, there is more to it than that, a subtle but important distinction. We have had government mandates to do this and do that, but over time we have had little evidence these mandates are working. Instead of focusing on the evidence, often the focus is on the mandate: some keep insisting that if everyone wears a mask (everywhere) and everyone stays home always, the whole problem will go away. Now however we have every indication that the problem wouldn?t go away even if everyone did comply: even if it did work, borders cannot be completely controlled anywhere on the planet. Government mandates can be made, but governments everywhere operate under (intentionally) limited power. When it makes a mandate without the means to enforce, then next time it makes a mandate, it has less authority than before. The government cannot make people stay home, it cannot make people wear masks. Businesses can make people wear a mask in their place of business. But no government at any level owns us. China, North Korea, perhaps. Not here. No one posting here lives in a place where government has the authority to enforce demands such as shelter-in-place and mandatory wearing of masks outdoors. Here we do not work for the government, the government works for us. I can end on a cheerful note: if we imagine the government actions taken at least slowed the virus some (sure, they migha) then we can conclude that lives were saved. Reasoning: the vaccine is shipping out by the truckload every hour, around the clock, as fast as they can cram the stuff into syringes. The end of this nightmare is in sight. It isn?t completely clear to me that the mandates slowed the virus, but we may legitimately indulge ourselves into thinking they mighta. OK sure, fair game, let?s do that. T In May, the medical people and mainstream ?news? agencies confidently opined in May that it would be a miracle if a vaccine could be developed and deployed in 2020. I agreed at the time. Well, it happened: the medical research community pulled off a miracle. Do let us give credit where credit is due, shall we? (stopping short of calling for their being collectively declared saints (they still need to actually perish to be eligible for that honor (so what if? one is a really saintly and pious person, the world champion of humility, and performs miracles, then perishes but is a client of Alcor (so they are in a state of kinda deactivation, then declared a saint (but is later uploaded (and everyone is calling me Saint spike (but I decide to mess up everything (which you know I would do (I am such a bastard that way (and demand proles pray to me (and buy my figurines to stick to the dashboard (causing me to make a buttload of money (with no actual literal butt in which to cram my ill-gotten wealth (how shall I virtually cope? (the mind boggles.))))))) spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 19:52:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:52:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: hypocrisy (n.) c. 1200, ipocrisie, "the sin of pretending to virtue or goodness," from Old French ypocrisie, from Late Latin hypocrisis "hypocrisy," also "an imitation of a person's speech and gestures," from Attic Greek hypokrisis "acting on the stage; pretense," metaphorically, "hypocrisy," from hypokrinesthai "play a part, pretend," also "answer," from hypo- "under" (see hypo-) + middle voice of krinein "to sift, decide" (from PIE root *krei- "to sieve," thus "discriminate, distinguish"). The sense evolution in Attic Greek is from "separate gradually" to "answer" to "answer a fellow actor on stage" to "play a part." The h- was restored in English 16c. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 12:30 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below > or something less than minarchy. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 19:58:01 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:58:01 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: <018201d6da1e$b5c92260$215b6720$@rainier66.com> References: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> <018201d6da1e$b5c92260$215b6720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I thought the idea was to view them, then in a more lusty state, engage the actual with your wife. Where does talk come in? With your wife, yes. With a video? Talk to me is impossible since I am usually in a near comatose state. Which reminds me of a statement about prostitutes. "Why does that good looking rich guy hire prostitutes to go to his home and have sex with him? Many would do it for nothing." "He is not paying them for sex. He is paying for them to leave afterwards." bill w bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 12:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down > > > > One could google on Marissa, select video, put her on mute, get in the > mood, go visit one?s bride, everyone wins. > > > > spike > > > > Wait until you get older. Women in clothes won't do it for you anymore. > bill w > > > > On the contrary sir. Rather, that hasn?t been my experience. I am older > now so I can say with some conviction: over the years, it has very much > gone the other direction. When I was in my teens or 20s, muted videos of > Dr. Stein and Marissa wouldn?ta done a thing for me. Now all those young > shapely women have created videos which are available (free) displaying > their wares and skills, but that doesn?t really do it for me anymore. It > is too difficult to imagine they would have anything interesting or > worthwhile to talk about afterwards. > > We lads get wisdom far too late in life. I am still waiting for mine. > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 20:01:19 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 12:01:19 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 24, 2020, at 11:55 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > ? > hypocrisy (n.) > c. 1200, ipocrisie, "the sin of pretending to virtue or goodness," from Old French ypocrisie, from Late Latin hypocrisis "hypocrisy," also "an imitation of a person's speech and gestures," from Attic Greek hypokrisis "acting on the stage; pretense," metaphorically, "hypocrisy," from hypokrinesthai "play a part, pretend," also "answer," from hypo- "under" (see hypo-) + middle voice of krinein "to sift, decide" (from PIE root *krei- "to sieve," thus "discriminate, distinguish"). The sense evolution in Attic Greek is from "separate gradually" to "answer" to "answer a fellow actor on stage" to "play a part." The h- was restored in English 16c. bill w > >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 12:30 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: >> "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below >> or something less than minarchy. >> >> -- >> *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org Anton was focusing on the misspelled hypocracy... notice the -cracy part there. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 20:35:29 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 07:35:29 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 at 17:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > And yet despite the relatively benign nature of Covid compared to some > other viruses, 326,000 Americans have died of it, including over 3,000 > healthcare professionals and a grand total of around 1.7 million worldwide. > It may not seem like many, unless a loved one of yours was one of those who > perished from it. And keep in mind that a fair number of Covid survivors > may have permanent damage to their brains or other organs. I have known > enough people to get nailed by it, that I feel like an invisible boogieman > is stalking the Earth. > > I agree that the lockdowns are bad in that they cause financial > suffocation for many people, especially the poor, and small businesses. For > a long time, the powers that be seemed oblivious to this fact. And our > politicians, such as human scumbag Mitch McConnell, have not done their > part to properly help struggling average Americans. The current stimulus > package is far less than it should be. > > I think in the future we need intelligent leadership/control at the > federal level, rather than letting each state decide how they want to > respond to a growing pandemic. And despite the fact China/CCP sat on their > hands for three weeks and let Covid infect the world, we need to examine > how they managed to successfully control and eliminate the disease outbreak > from their nation. > > I can't get over how so many people want to be the rebel and not wear a > face mask properly when outside their home. Or think social distancing is > just asking too much. I hope we can globally learn from the many mistakes > made in handling Covid. Because if there is a next time, and there probably > will be, we could face a much more lethal but equally contagious virus, > which leaves tens of millions dead. > > And I hope somehow, someway, the CCP is punished/disciplined for letting > the Covid virus get out of control and terrorize the world. They knew what > was going on at the top, but they chose to sit on their hands and be > concerned about appearances, rather than taking strong swift action to stop > Covid from becoming a global menace. The U.S., Europe and the rest of the > world should seize Chinese owned assets in their nations, as a form of > reparations for the massive economic losses and the lost human lives. > I guess the Chinese initially thought it wasn?t such a big deal and the problem would go a away without anything special being done. Many people, including many on this list, including many in Government, are STILL saying this despite observing everything that has happened almost a year later! How can the Chinese be blamed for being insufficiently prescient? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 24 23:05:26 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 23:05:26 +0000 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/12/2020 18:37, Anton Sherwood wrote: > "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below > or something less than minarchy. Haha, yes, I know. I only realised I'd spelled it wrong after I'd sent it. Not like me, I'm normally pretty hot on spelling (and checking things before I hit 'send'). I must be slipping! Merry Xmas*, everyone! Ben *No, I don't mean 'happy holidays'. It's Christmas. 'The holidays' happen in summer, not winter. Ok, not this year, but normally I take my holidays in August/September. Christmas just happens anyway, and people don't usually go away (which is what people normally do when they take a holiday). But anyway, have a good one, whatever you want to call it. -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 24 23:24:14 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 23:24:14 +0000 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fb50e68-e43c-f73e-cb33-446da6573072@zaiboc.net> On 24/12/2020 18:37, bill w wrote: > Ben, I have long wondered if politics is a high profession or a low > one.? I think it can be and we have some good people - who are greatly > outnumbered by the corrupt ones.? ?bill w Do you take the aphorism "power corrupts,.. etc." seriously? I do. Any serious political system should take as an axiom that people or groups in a position of power will abuse that power if they can, and have built-in safeguards against it. We're a long way from that. I've known precisely one principled politician, someone who genuinely (afaik) wanted to do good rather than just gain power or feather their own nest. They didn't last long. I can't say whether that was because they weren't very good at it, or because the system works against such people, but I have my suspicions. They gave it up with the stated reason that they realised they weren't getting anywhere and never would. I have no doubts that politics is one of the lowest professions there is, if not the lowest of all*. I would rate it even lower than the legal profession or journalism. If that's not damning, I don't know what is. * I'm not counting religious posts here, of course. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 24 23:58:53 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:58:53 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <9e970504-fd1a-d02f-313d-9d1c21e983c0@pobox.com> On 2020-12-24 10:22, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below Er, *from* below. What is the name of the Law that any post commenting on an error in spelling or grammar must contain one? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 00:07:11 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:07:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: References: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> <018201d6da1e$b5c92260$215b6720$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d6da51$e51b8340$af5289c0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?Which reminds me of a statement about prostitutes. "Why does that good looking rich guy hire prostitutes to go to his home and have sex with him? Many would do it for nothing." "He is not paying them for sex. He is paying for them to leave afterwards." bill w Understatement, in my case billw. I am so rich and handsome, the usual tropes about paying harlots to get out of my bed are grossly insufficient. So extreme are my manly qualities, I have taken to paying the harlots to go away before they even do anything, kind of as a prophylactic therapy sorta. A simple trip to the grocery store for a loaf of bread can cost 800 dollars, as I pay a motley collection of no-collar workers, not to merely get their nekkid butts out of my bed, but with a generous tip included for never having gotten into it to start with. Conclusion: it is tough being rich and handsome. Fortunately, at that point I usually wake up without adverse economic consequence. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 00:19:08 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:19:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: <9e970504-fd1a-d02f-313d-9d1c21e983c0@pobox.com> References: <32131b8e-b24d-6ffa-df1d-38790c227438@zaiboc.net> <9e970504-fd1a-d02f-313d-9d1c21e983c0@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 at 00:03, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2020-12-24 10:22, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > "hypocracy" ought to mean either rule for below > > Er, *from* below. > > What is the name of the Law that any post commenting on an error in > spelling or grammar must contain one? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ See: Muphry's law. (The name is a deliberate misspelling of "Murphy's law"). for a selection of mistake type laws. BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 00:22:50 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 18:22:50 -0600 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: <9fb50e68-e43c-f73e-cb33-446da6573072@zaiboc.net> References: <9fb50e68-e43c-f73e-cb33-446da6573072@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: Ben, you have an overlap in your post. Politicians are low and so are lawyers. Of course the percentage of politicians in legislatures and Congress that are lawyers must be pretty high. That is a major reason in my opinion that they just can't compromise. Everyone is an enemy trying to stifle one's efforts at passing legislation. I have no idea how to get rid of the confrontational nature of our governments. It's all about money because they have the sole authority to spend it, and money is power. And who doesn't want power? Someone suggested awhile back that all elected politicians should be multimillionaires or better, so that could take a bit of the personal accumulation of money out of the process. I think a lot of the members of Congress are millionaires aspiring to be billionaires, which is why they get friendly with real billionaires who can donate campaign money and maybe pass along some investment tips. So it's 'follow the money' - business as usual. Probably can't be fixed. bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:27 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 24/12/2020 18:37, bill w wrote: > > Ben, I have long wondered if politics is a high profession or a low one. > I think it can be and we have some good people - who are greatly > outnumbered by the corrupt ones. bill w > > > Do you take the aphorism "power corrupts,.. etc." seriously? I do. Any > serious political system should take as an axiom that people or groups in a > position of power will abuse that power if they can, and have built-in > safeguards against it. We're a long way from that. > > I've known precisely one principled politician, someone who genuinely > (afaik) wanted to do good rather than just gain power or feather their own > nest. They didn't last long. I can't say whether that was because they > weren't very good at it, or because the system works against such people, > but I have my suspicions. They gave it up with the stated reason that they > realised they weren't getting anywhere and never would. > > I have no doubts that politics is one of the lowest professions there is, > if not the lowest of all*. I would rate it even lower than the legal > profession or journalism. If that's not damning, I don't know what is. > > * I'm not counting religious posts here, of course. > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 00:37:24 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:37:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> References: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> From: spike at rainier66.com >? everyone is calling me Saint spike (but I decide to mess up everything (which you know I would do (I am such a bastard that way ?spike I should clarify that harsh self-assessment perhaps. It really isn?t that I am such a bastard. I realized I am not really such a bad guy once I got to know me. The real situation is just that I am such an extreme iconoclast. So an extreme example of iconoclast am I that the tradition definition of the term had to be discarded or modified to cover my case. This forcing of a redefinition of the traditional term caused me to be even more iconoclastic, which again upset the new definition, for it had to now cover one so iconoclasmic as to wreck the usual notion of iconoclasm. But other than that? I am as traditional as Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof. For instance, I am not afraid to wish my online friends a Merry Christmas, even if neither of us are religious. There is no rule that says we can?t have fun at the winter solstice too. May you all have a health, happy and prosperous 2021. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From interzone at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 00:41:09 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:41:09 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> References: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Same to all, Merry Christmas and a prosperous new year! On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 7:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >? everyone is calling me Saint spike (but I decide to mess up everything > (which you know I would do (I am such a bastard that way ?spike > > > > > > > > > > I should clarify that harsh self-assessment perhaps. It really isn?t that > I am such a bastard. I realized I am not really such a bad guy once I got > to know me. The real situation is just that I am such an extreme > iconoclast. So an extreme example of iconoclast am I that the tradition > definition of the term had to be discarded or modified to cover my case. > This forcing of a redefinition of the traditional term caused me to be even > more iconoclastic, which again upset the new definition, for it had to now > cover one so iconoclasmic as to wreck the usual notion of iconoclasm. > > > > But other than that? I am as traditional as Tevye from Fiddler on the > Roof. For instance, I am not afraid to wish my online friends a Merry > Christmas, even if neither of us are religious. There is no rule that says > we can?t have fun at the winter solstice too. May you all have a health, > happy and prosperous 2021. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 01:06:20 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:06:20 -0600 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> References: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: even if neither of us are religious. spike Many long years ago when I was a rabid Methodist (if that's not an oxymoron) I asked an atheist friend if he celebrated Christmas. He got huffy and said sure - tree, presents, etc. And why not I thought? Their kids would feel left out, he said, and anyway it's not a religious occasion for many people. I know Jews who do the same thing. So the 'even if' above is not needed. Nothing whatsoever wrong with it, although Christians are always grousing about the 'meaning of Christmas' (a holiday moved to the end of the year to take over the traditional Winterfests, which really were prayers in a sense about surviving the winter. Let's have a big party before it gets really grim around here. ) So I echo: Happy Xmas and Merry New Year to all of us nontraditional types. Perhaps one day we will be the traditional ones, eh? bill w On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 6:40 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* spike at rainier66.com > > >? everyone is calling me Saint spike (but I decide to mess up everything > (which you know I would do (I am such a bastard that way ?spike > > > > > > > > > > I should clarify that harsh self-assessment perhaps. It really isn?t that > I am such a bastard. I realized I am not really such a bad guy once I got > to know me. The real situation is just that I am such an extreme > iconoclast. So an extreme example of iconoclast am I that the tradition > definition of the term had to be discarded or modified to cover my case. > This forcing of a redefinition of the traditional term caused me to be even > more iconoclastic, which again upset the new definition, for it had to now > cover one so iconoclasmic as to wreck the usual notion of iconoclasm. > > > > But other than that? I am as traditional as Tevye from Fiddler on the > Roof. For instance, I am not afraid to wish my online friends a Merry > Christmas, even if neither of us are religious. There is no rule that says > we can?t have fun at the winter solstice too. May you all have a health, > happy and prosperous 2021. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 01:10:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 17:10:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001e01d6da5a$bd66c8b0$38345a10$@rainier66.com> There are two ways to look at this. We could modify the subject line to reflect the transition from Henry?s original message. Or we could celebrate the meandering path whereby an originally grim message went from our collective wish for Henry?s speedy recovery, to confidence, to best wishes to all for a new year. There are good reasons why I have been hanging out with you for nearly 30 years and have enjoyed my stat immensely: you give me hope for humanity. spike From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2020 4:41 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: Dylan Distasio Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid Same to all, Merry Christmas and a prosperous new year! On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 7:38 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: From: spike at rainier66.com > >? everyone is calling me Saint spike (but I decide to mess up everything (which you know I would do (I am such a bastard that way ?spike I should clarify that harsh self-assessment perhaps. It really isn?t that I am such a bastard. I realized I am not really such a bad guy once I got to know me. The real situation is just that I am such an extreme iconoclast. So an extreme example of iconoclast am I that the tradition definition of the term had to be discarded or modified to cover my case. This forcing of a redefinition of the traditional term caused me to be even more iconoclastic, which again upset the new definition, for it had to now cover one so iconoclasmic as to wreck the usual notion of iconoclasm. But other than that? I am as traditional as Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof. For instance, I am not afraid to wish my online friends a Merry Christmas, even if neither of us are religious. There is no rule that says we can?t have fun at the winter solstice too. May you all have a health, happy and prosperous 2021. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 01:27:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 17:27:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: <01d601d6da23$c42778c0$4c766a40$@rainier66.com> <006801d6da56$1d820070$58860150$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001b01d6da5d$27c899c0$7759cd40$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Perhaps one day we will be the traditional ones, eh? bill w I made a cameo for this film. I played the blessed rabbi at the 3:50 minute mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw Or not, but I agree with the sentiment in any case. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Dec 25 01:54:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 17:54:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] hypocrisy? In-Reply-To: References: <9fb50e68-e43c-f73e-cb33-446da6573072@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <84cd7f08-7bf1-8ec3-5bc2-92906623d766@pobox.com> On 2020-12-24 16:22, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Ben, you have an overlap in your post.? Politicians are low and so are > lawyers.? Of course the percentage of politicians in legislatures and > Congress that are lawyers must be pretty high.? That is a major reason > in my opinion that they just can't compromise.? Everyone is an enemy > trying to stifle one's efforts at passing legislation. Not all lawyers are litigators (civil or criminal); some specialize in drafting contracts. Contract lawyering is (partly) negotiating; litigation is seeking to defeat the other side in the view of a neutral observer. So one might expect legislatures to attract contract lawyers rather than litigators, as the task of legislation does not directly involve any third party. The problem may be more that legislators make every difference a Big Deal because they need to look important. > [...]? Someone suggested > awhile?back that all elected politicians should be multimillionaires or > better, so that could take a bit of the personal accumulation of money > out of the process. [...] Sir Iain Moncreiffe remarked that the old practice of selling commissions in the British Army (and not paying officers enough to maintain the lifestyle expected of them) meant that officers could resign to protest unreasonable orders, without risking personal ruin. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:06:11 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 11:06:11 +0800 Subject: [ExI] Yahoo Groups Was Shut Down In-Reply-To: <003d01d6da51$e51b8340$af5289c0$@rainier66.com> References: <00ed01d6da09$aa34b4b0$fe9e1e10$@rainier66.com> <018201d6da1e$b5c92260$215b6720$@rainier66.com> <003d01d6da51$e51b8340$af5289c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: In the Philippines, due to the often difficult economic conditions for many people, attractive young women will show interest in western men who would often never get attention from extra lovely females back home. When my significant other was in the restaurant ladies room, a gal who looked like a magazine centerfold girl, probably in her late twenties, tried flirting with me. When my partner returned, she just somehow knew what the other woman had been up to, and basically shot angry laser beams from her eyes at the interloper! Lol The young woman just stared down at her dining table surface and kept her eyes there. Another time I went to a store electronics department, and a bevy of pretty sales girls literally pushed their co-worker in my direction, telling me that she had earlier that day complained about a non-appreciative local boyfriend, and that she needed an American guy who would treat her right! Lol The young woman who was the target of their joking around nearly died from embarrassment, but I think she would have taken my phone number if it had been offered. I was within range of my partner's zone of observation, and she was not happy. Due to a supposed shortage of quality men here, sisters and female cousins are known for mate poaching, with sometimes ugly consequences when it comes time for revenge. This is often the theme of locally made romantic comedies and dark dramas. I hope everyone is having a nice Christmas/holiday season. The "hit gift" I gave my stepdaughters was an inexpensive body motion controlled toy helicopter. It only cost five dollars (things are often cheaper here) and using it is sort of like playing frisbee with friends! I could not get over how the cheap little machine performed so well. We nearly destroyed the apartment with it, and then took it outside where it bounced along the grass as if it had a mind of its own. John : ) On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 8:11 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > *From:* extropy-chat *On Behalf > Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > > > >?Which reminds me of a statement about prostitutes. "Why does that > good looking rich guy hire prostitutes to go to his home and have sex with > him? Many would do it for nothing." "He is not paying them for sex. He > is paying for them to leave afterwards." bill w > > > > > > > > Understatement, in my case billw. I am so rich and handsome, the usual > tropes about paying harlots to get out of my bed are grossly insufficient. > So extreme are my manly qualities, I have taken to paying the harlots to go > away before they even do anything, kind of as a prophylactic therapy > sorta. A simple trip to the grocery store for a loaf of bread can cost 800 > dollars, as I pay a motley collection of no-collar workers, not to merely > get their nekkid butts out of my bed, but with a generous tip included for > never having gotten into it to start with. > > > > Conclusion: it is tough being rich and handsome. > > > > Fortunately, at that point I usually wake up without adverse economic > consequence. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:24:37 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 11:24:37 +0800 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Stathis Papaioannou wrote:"I guess the Chinese initially thought it wasn?t such a big deal and the problem would go away without anything special being done. Many people, including many on this list, including many in Government, are STILL saying this despite observing everything that has happened almost a year later! How can the Chinese be blamed for being insufficiently prescient?" -They had local doctors and medical authorities trying to get the government to take action, but these brave souls were threatened and muzzled. -The CCP dragged their feet for years in making real reform on these issues, despite epidemiologists from around the globe begging them to completely ban wet meat "killed while you wait" shops, that are the breeding grounds for pandemics, due to the many species of animals all crammed together in a tight space. -Three pivotal weeks passed where Xi and his inner circle, despite knowing there was a serious threat, decided to take no crucial action, and instead just sit on their hands and keep up appearances, while China infected the world. And now they charge poor third world nations for the vaccines which are needed for a virus which they allowed to infect the world.... John On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 4:39 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 at 17:41, John Grigg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> And yet despite the relatively benign nature of Covid compared to some >> other viruses, 326,000 Americans have died of it, including over 3,000 >> healthcare professionals and a grand total of around 1.7 million worldwide. >> It may not seem like many, unless a loved one of yours was one of those who >> perished from it. And keep in mind that a fair number of Covid survivors >> may have permanent damage to their brains or other organs. I have known >> enough people to get nailed by it, that I feel like an invisible boogieman >> is stalking the Earth. >> >> I agree that the lockdowns are bad in that they cause financial >> suffocation for many people, especially the poor, and small businesses. For >> a long time, the powers that be seemed oblivious to this fact. And our >> politicians, such as human scumbag Mitch McConnell, have not done their >> part to properly help struggling average Americans. The current stimulus >> package is far less than it should be. >> >> I think in the future we need intelligent leadership/control at the >> federal level, rather than letting each state decide how they want to >> respond to a growing pandemic. And despite the fact China/CCP sat on their >> hands for three weeks and let Covid infect the world, we need to examine >> how they managed to successfully control and eliminate the disease outbreak >> from their nation. >> >> I can't get over how so many people want to be the rebel and not wear a >> face mask properly when outside their home. Or think social distancing is >> just asking too much. I hope we can globally learn from the many mistakes >> made in handling Covid. Because if there is a next time, and there probably >> will be, we could face a much more lethal but equally contagious virus, >> which leaves tens of millions dead. >> >> And I hope somehow, someway, the CCP is punished/disciplined for letting >> the Covid virus get out of control and terrorize the world. They knew what >> was going on at the top, but they chose to sit on their hands and be >> concerned about appearances, rather than taking strong swift action to stop >> Covid from becoming a global menace. The U.S., Europe and the rest of the >> world should seize Chinese owned assets in their nations, as a form of >> reparations for the massive economic losses and the lost human lives. >> > > I guess the Chinese initially thought it wasn?t such a big deal and the > problem would go a away without anything special being done. Many people, > including many on this list, including many in Government, are STILL saying > this despite observing everything that has happened almost a year later! > How can the Chinese be blamed for being insufficiently prescient? > >> -- > Stathis Papaioannou > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Fri Dec 25 04:13:15 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 20:13:15 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > even if neither of us are religious. spike > Many long years ago when I was a rabid Methodist (if that's not an > oxymoron) I asked an atheist friend if he celebrated Christmas. He got > huffy and said sure - tree, presents, etc. And why not I thought? Their > kids would feel left out, he said, and anyway it's not a religious occasion > for many people. I know Jews who do the same thing. So the 'even if' > above is not needed. Nothing whatsoever wrong with it, although Christians > are always grousing about the 'meaning of Christmas' (a holiday moved to > the end of the year to take over the traditional Winterfests, which really > were prayers in a sense about surviving the winter. Let's have a big party > before it gets really grim around here. ) So I echo: Happy Xmas and Merry > New Year to all of us nontraditional types. Perhaps one day we will be the > traditional ones, eh? Happy Festivus everyone! ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THzkGSigL6Q Stuart LaForge From rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 04:30:18 2020 From: rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 23:30:18 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 7:05 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I am not wearing a mask, unless directly forced to. They have been proven > useless in the context of the Wuhan virus spread. > > Rafal > I read where the governor of Kansas issued a mandate but the legislature > voted to make it optional by counties. So they did. The infection rate in > the counties that did not follow the mandate was 100% increase. In the > counties that followed it, it was 6 percent. What more do you need? > ### Do you really believe it? Think about it - there is no detectable individual effect of mask wearing on Covid-19 transmission in peer-reviewed controlled studies, including a study published in NEJM. There is no correlation between mask wearing and disease cases in different countries. There are peer-reviewed studies explaining why this is the case - masks have 20-80% leak, it takes one viable virion to infect, a person generates 2,600 droplets per second while speaking, so if you are next to an infected symptomatic person the mask will do nothing. Aerosol droplets spread for tens of feet in enclosed spaces and in cold weather with high humidity the viability of the airborne virus is prolonged, which is why cases are exploding now, with more people spending more time in such spaces compared to summertime. We also know another reason why public mask wearing by asymptomatic people is useless - asymptomatic transmission of Covid-19 is very rare, so it does not matter if you wear masks, as long as you are surrounded only by asymptomatic persons, which is the majority of people in public. Think about it this way - Suppose you are being attacked by 1,000 crocodiles. Some hustler offers you a protective suit guaranteed to keep you safe from 80% of the crocodiles. Are you going to wear the suit? Do you think being attacked by the remaining 200 crocodiles will be less dangerous than 1,000 crocodiles? Or maybe you should just never go to places with crocodiles in the first place? If you want to reduce, but not eliminate, the likelihood of being infected you have to wear an N-95 mask, perfectly fitted, whenever in the same enclosed space as a symptomatic person. If you want to eliminate the chance of being infected, you have to never be in an enclosed space with any infected symptomatic persons whatsoever (or wear a full biohazard suit). The silly face diaper and the magical 6 feet will do nothing except make you look like a fool. And then you tell me that in Kansas, according to some internet gossip, the mere word of a county official telling people to wear masks has an astounding 94% efficacy! Wow! Rejoice! You should be able to realize the story is silly. A county official's decree does not change mask wearing from 0% to 100% and the actual differences in mask wearing between various counties are likely to be minor - most people who wear masks are doing it not because of a county ordinance but because they watch TV and are shaking in their britches at the thought of the invisible menace in the air. The people who don't wear masks are not likely to pay attention to some idiot's order unless strongly enforced, which does not happen. So, this amazing 94% reduction in cases would have to be attributed to some minor changes in mask wearing frequency, if any, not to a strong on-off effect of masks. But if a little bit more of mask wearing almost eliminates the infections, then almost universal mask wearing in the US and Europe should have worked like a charm, the pandemic should have been eliminated - but it didn't, so that's how you know the story is a hoax. You need to use your critical faculties. Don't let them bamboozle you. Bamboozling is bad for your health. Rafal PS. People are so weird. I know this nurse, a very nice lady, but she tells me she needs to wear the N-95 mask because she is scared of the bad virus. But she also says she does not want to have the vaccine, because, you guessed it, she is scared of the vaccine! So she'd rather risk being infected than risk being vaccinated, although, obviously, risk of infection x risk of complications while working at the Covid unit in the hospital is decidedly higher than the risk of complications from taking the vaccine. I bet she is watching TV and got bamboozled. Rafal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Fri Dec 25 05:03:08 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 21:03:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8911a556-3b2c-b5e2-268f-44c71dfbc277@pobox.com> Does anyone else hear the subject line like ?I shot the sheriff?? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 05:58:00 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 21:58:00 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <8911a556-3b2c-b5e2-268f-44c71dfbc277@pobox.com> References: <8911a556-3b2c-b5e2-268f-44c71dfbc277@pobox.com> Message-ID: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid Does anyone else hear the subject line like ?I shot the sheriff?? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Once Henry is healthy and everyone in his home is in the clear, we can make up some new lyrics and have some fun with it. In the meantime, we will watch and wait for his posts, daily we hope. spike From bronto at pobox.com Fri Dec 25 07:05:41 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 23:05:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Festivus, was: I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <1edf16ba-9197-a8a9-6f0b-0017090f9575@pobox.com> On 2020-12-24 20:13, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Happy Festivus everyone! ;-) > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THzkGSigL6Q I had read of it, but imagined the stress on the middle syllable. Can't say why. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 08:08:05 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 16:08:05 +0800 Subject: [ExI] After the Great Filter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: "We are on the last millionth part of the last sprint of the longest race in our galaxy, the race to space-colonizing intelligent life. I sure hope we don't trip up at the last possible moment." If we can just make it through the next one-hundred years, I would think we would be okay in terms of having enough people and infrastructure off-planet to continue civilization should the human society on Earth collapse. I am a huge Edgar Panghorn fan, who wrote the classic sf novel, Davy, which many consider the work of a grandmaster. As I read it and the follow-up book, I was horrified to learn that when the big global nuclear war happened, they not only destroyed all the cities of the world, but also the large Moon colony which had been established. And so the spark of advanced civilization was completely extinguished. It might have been cool in the sequel to have had colonists from the Moon show up in exo-skeletons, to see how the poor backward humans left on Earth were doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Pangborn. John On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 11:46 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2020 at 07:45, Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > A recent article in Communications Earth & Environment: > > > > https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00057-8 > > > > attempts to model the likelihood of Earth-like planets to remain > continuously habitable for 3 billions of years and comes to the conclusion > that the overall success rate would be very low (0.0145). I have doubts > about the approach, in part because I don't really understand how the > results were generated and I am too lazy to read the Methods section where > the assumptions are explained. Well, actually I skimmed through the methods > and I think one assumption is a major blooper - that 3 By of continuous > habitability are needed for intelligent life to evolve. That really doesn't > make sense. The whole modeling effort seems like trying to squeeze way too > much knowledge out of way too little data. Or maybe I am not sophisticated > to see the general applicability of the method? > > > > Still, the article's conclusion is probably correct - even on planets > blessed with all the right ingredients there is going to be a lot of > instability, due to various instantaneous perturbations (asteroids, > supervolcanism) and the interplay of long-term forcings. We know that > complex life on Earth was reset multiple times, so it's plausible that the > same is happening everywhere. Life-sustaining planets most likely all have > plate tectonics, since this is a very powerful stabilizing mechanism > without which the chemical composition of the atmosphere would almost > certainly degrade continuously until water is lost (Mars) or a runaway > heating occurs (Venus). But plate tectonics implies mantle convection and > convection is likely to produce plumes which trigger supervolcanism. So > every living planet is most likely primed to erase large animals on a > regular basis. > > > > I do not believe that dinosaurs or the theriodonts were in some > substantial way more primitive than modern mammals - most likely they were > functionally equivalent to the bulk of modern mammals and the only reason > they did not give rise to intelligent forms is because they got creamed by > climate perturbations too early. > > > > Intelligence most likely appears randomly with some reasonable > probability once you have large animals running around long enough - but > exactly how long is the average time to first evolved sophont is unclear. > Probably not less than 100 million years (Myr), since there were two epochs > on Earth when large animals evolved uninterrupted, more or less, for > similar periods (the above-mentioned theriodonts and dinosaurs) and still > did not manage to evolve intelligence. If we are a lucky throw of the dice, > and the average time to intelligence is e.g. 500 Myr, then even on lucky > planets with all the right ingredients for life there would never be > intelligent life because random resets due to supervolcanism would happen > too frequently. > > > > Too much uncertainty, too little data. Anyway, my guess, which I > mentioned here before, is that Earth already passed through the Great > Filters. We are just a couple of decades away from spreading to other > planets. I don't believe that superintelligent AI is a filter, at least not > a filter preventing intelligence survival - even if all humans perish in > the robot wars, intelligence of the inorganic variety will still survive > and spread. > > > > We are on the last millionth part of the last sprint of the longest race > in our galaxy, the race to space-colonizing intelligent life. I sure hope > we don't trip up at the last possible moment. > > > > Rafal > > _______________________________________________ > > > This article implies that not only the habitability of Earth depended > greatly on random chance, but Evolution itself did as well. Every so > often, random events wiped out great swathes of species from the > earth. > The idea that humans are the peak of a steady step by step improving > evolution is just not right. It is more like evolution is making the > best of a bad job, making do with what was left after disasters > struck. > > If there are other habitable planets out there evolution probably took > a rather different path. I quite fancy being an evolved Tyrannosaurus > Rex, after evolving bigger arms of course. > > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stathisp at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 08:30:14 2020 From: stathisp at gmail.com (Stathis Papaioannou) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 19:30:14 +1100 Subject: [ExI] the science might be wrong In-Reply-To: References: <002301d6d4f0$265c6fc0$73154f40$@rainier66.com> <006f01d6d620$d9687f10$8c397d30$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 at 14:25, John Grigg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:"I guess the Chinese initially thought it > wasn?t such a big deal and the problem would go away without anything > special being done. Many people, including many on this list, including > many in Government, are STILL saying this despite observing everything that > has happened almost a year later! How can the Chinese be blamed for being > insufficiently prescient?" > -They had local doctors and medical authorities trying to get the > government to take action, but these brave souls were threatened and > muzzled. > > -The CCP dragged their feet for years in making real reform on these > issues, despite epidemiologists from around the globe begging them to > completely ban wet meat "killed while you wait" shops, that are the > breeding grounds for pandemics, due to the many species of animals all > crammed together in a tight space. > > -Three pivotal weeks passed where Xi and his inner circle, despite knowing > there was a serious threat, decided to take no crucial action, and instead > just sit on their hands and keep up appearances, while China infected the > world. And now they charge poor third world nations for the vaccines which > are needed for a virus which they allowed to infect the world.... > > I think in the future we need intelligent leadership/control at the >>> federal level, rather than letting each state decide how they want to >>> respond to a growing pandemic. And despite the fact China/CCP sat on their >>> hands for three weeks and let Covid infect the world, we need to examine >>> how they managed to successfully control and eliminate the disease outbreak >>> from their nation. >>> >>> I can't get over how so many people want to be the rebel and not wear a >>> face mask properly when outside their home. Or think social distancing is >>> just asking too much. I hope we can globally learn from the many mistakes >>> made in handling Covid. Because if there is a next time, and there probably >>> will be, we could face a much more lethal but equally contagious virus, >>> which leaves tens of millions dead. >>> >>> And I hope somehow, someway, the CCP is punished/disciplined for letting >>> the Covid virus get out of control and terrorize the world. They knew what >>> was going on at the top, but they chose to sit on their hands and be >>> concerned about appearances, rather than taking strong swift action to stop >>> Covid from becoming a global menace. The U.S., Europe and the rest of the >>> world should seize Chinese owned assets in their nations, as a form of >>> reparations for the massive economic losses and the lost human lives. >>> >> Obviously, the Chinese authorities thought it wouldn?t be a problem. They were wrong. Due to arrogance they didn?t want to admit they were wrong, but they certainly realised it after a few weeks, and then they did something about it. For people perhaps not as bright as the Chinese leadership it took another few weeks to realise it was a big problem, when they saw people dying in places like Italy. But what is the excuse of those who STILL don?t acknowledge it? > -- Stathis Papaioannou -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 12:28:28 2020 From: henrik.ohrstrom at gmail.com (Henrik Ohrstrom) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 13:28:28 +0100 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> References: <8911a556-3b2c-b5e2-268f-44c71dfbc277@pobox.com> <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I agree with Rafael, masks chief effect (unless real gasmasks style stuff) is as a Taboo. You have the mask, you wash your hands and like a dog with muzzle, people look at you and keep away. Whee! Infections reduced, unless you are a Tool, chindiaper-position and are immortal because of you magic chin diaper... Exception is ie working with infected patients that choughs right at you and spread mucus and stuff around. Then a proper mask (real airtight ones with real filter capabilities) face-screen and lots of alcohol prevent infection. We have had zero patient to personnel infections.( When the patient is a know carrier) The personnel infections occur in the rest room in non-covid units or from unidentified covid patients. Now all patients are to be treated as infectious and personnel to personnel infections are the chief pathway inside at least our hospital. /Henrik Den fre 25 dec. 2020 07:02spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> skrev: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid > > Does anyone else hear the subject line like ?I shot the sheriff?? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Once Henry is healthy and everyone in his home is in the clear, we can > make up some new lyrics and have some fun with it. > > In the meantime, we will watch and wait for his posts, daily we hope. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Fri Dec 25 15:41:46 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 10:41:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> References: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <2CF4CF12-6CD6-4C34-9750-5DAFDC89330B@alumni.virginia.edu> Welp, I?m still sick. My partner and oldest have it too. So at least we can live among each other at my house. My youngest is still waiting his test results, so he is with his mom today who is negative. He has no symptoms. I won?t get to see him today, and his mom won?t be seeing our oldest. This is very weird. This Covid-19 lingers on and on. I get bouts of normalcy and then feel like a semi hit me minutes later. A low grade headache starts almost immediately after I wake although today no headache yet ??. I think I?m getting better but it?s so hard to tell. I don?t think I?m worse. I hope you all make good memories today and spread much love and generosity, whatever you celebrate or don?t. ?I caught the covid, and I didn?t get the shot in time. Mmm mmm mmmm.? -Henry > On Dec 25, 2020, at 12:58 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > ? > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid > > Does anyone else hear the subject line like ?I shot the sheriff?? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Once Henry is healthy and everyone in his home is in the clear, we can make up some new lyrics and have some fun with it. > > In the meantime, we will watch and wait for his posts, daily we hope. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 15:53:56 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 07:53:56 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <2CF4CF12-6CD6-4C34-9750-5DAFDC89330B@alumni.virginia.edu> References: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> <2CF4CF12-6CD6-4C34-9750-5DAFDC89330B@alumni.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <003b01d6dad6$279c75b0$76d56110$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: Henry Rivera Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid >...Welp, I?m still sick. My partner and oldest have it too. So at least we can live among each other at my house. ... ?I caught the covid, and I didn?t get the shot in time. Mmm mmm mmmm.? -Henry Henry, this is ExI, but we unanimously declare this forum the Rivera family cheerleader squad. This it will stay until you and yours are healthy again. We will do the pom poms if necessary, perhaps stop short of the poodle skirts. Stay in there, fight fight fight, drive to the goal. spike From spike at rainier66.com Fri Dec 25 17:01:22 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 09:01:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: <8911a556-3b2c-b5e2-268f-44c71dfbc277@pobox.com> <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <001d01d6dadf$92c451b0$b84cf510$@rainier66.com> ?> On Behalf Of Henrik Ohrstrom via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid >?I agree with Rafael, masks chief effect (unless real gasmasks style stuff) is as a Taboo. You have the mask, you wash your hands and like a dog with muzzle, people look at you and keep away. Whee! Infections reduced, unless you are a Tool, chindiaper-position and are immortal because of you magic chin diaper... .. /Henrik Hi Henrik, Some buck the rules because they don?t believe masks are effective, at least in some settings. Masks indoors are required by whoever owns the building. OK, their building, their rules, I wear it. No one owns the outdoors. I have found that if I don?t wear a mask outdoors, people give me more space, which reduces the risk of infection for both. There is nothing magic about 6 ft or 2 meters. One might think the risk drops off as the square of the distance, approximately. My refusal to wear a mask outdoors has nothing to do with following rules or anything having to do with challenging authority (there isn?t any authority in that case.) My refusal to wear a mask outdoors is purely as a safety precaution. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Fri Dec 25 22:38:04 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 22:38:04 +0000 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 207, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/12/2020 08:30, Anton Sherwood wrote: > Does anyone else hear the subject line like ?I shot the sheriff?? Everyone, I'd have thought. By the way, speaking of sheriffs*, and shooting**, are you related to a certain forest? :-D * Nottingham ** arrows (for those who may have no clue what I'm talking about) -- Ben Zaiboc From bronto at pobox.com Sat Dec 26 00:23:20 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 16:23:20 -0800 Subject: [ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 207, Issue 18 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-12-25 14:38, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > By the way, speaking of sheriffs*, and shooting**, > are you related to a certain forest? I've set foot there once or twice, that's a relation. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 04:24:29 2020 From: possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com (John Grigg) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:24:29 +0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: I have a Jewish friend back home who got very hot under the collar when I greeted him once with "Merry Christmas!" This surprised me because other Jews I had known over the years had no problem with the holiday. But then this guy is a classic old school NYC Jew who was also my chiropractor. John On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 12:16 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > > even if neither of us are religious. spike > > Many long years ago when I was a rabid Methodist (if that's not an > > oxymoron) I asked an atheist friend if he celebrated Christmas. He got > > huffy and said sure - tree, presents, etc. And why not I thought? Their > > kids would feel left out, he said, and anyway it's not a religious > occasion > > for many people. I know Jews who do the same thing. So the 'even if' > > above is not needed. Nothing whatsoever wrong with it, although > Christians > > are always grousing about the 'meaning of Christmas' (a holiday moved to > > the end of the year to take over the traditional Winterfests, which > really > > were prayers in a sense about surviving the winter. Let's have a big > party > > before it gets really grim around here. ) So I echo: Happy Xmas and > Merry > > New Year to all of us nontraditional types. Perhaps one day we will be > the > > traditional ones, eh? > > Happy Festivus everyone! ;-) > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THzkGSigL6Q > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 26 05:11:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 21:11:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: <20201224201315.Horde.f529Fix1Vgc7c55eril8HJA@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <000f01d6db45$827b8dd0$8772a970$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of John Grigg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid >?I have a Jewish friend back home who got very hot under the collar when I greeted him once with "Merry Christmas!" This surprised me because other Jews I had known over the years had no problem with the holiday. But then this guy is a classic old school NYC Jew who was also my chiropractor. John Eh, that?s only the third worst person to piss off Johnny. Your bride is 4th worst. As it is, next time you go in with a backache, your chiropractor will put you down on the table, climb up, put a foot in the middle of your back, grab an arm, ?Merry Christmas he says. I?ll show ya Merry Christmas!? Crack. Wheelchair jockey for a month. If you?re lucky. I must tread even more lightly. The second worst guy to piss off is your dentist. Mine is muslim. The worst one to piss off is that IRS guy doing your audit. Don?t Merry Christmas him. You?re dead meat if you do, dead. Take care in seasons greetings with your proctologist as well. That guy will show your ass Merry Christmas. All five of those are to be treated with care. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 26 16:47:49 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 08:47:49 -0800 Subject: [ExI] jetpack guy over la Message-ID: <001f01d6dba6$d8bce340$8a36a9c0$@rainier66.com> They are now claiming this is real. A guy has been seen flying with a jet pack. I saw the company site for this a coupla yrs ago but discounted the notion, or was dubious. Now it looks like it is probably true: https://www.startengine.com/jetpack-aviation If so, this was a very impressive controls feat. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 16:59:08 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 08:59:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] jetpack guy over la In-Reply-To: <001f01d6dba6$d8bce340$8a36a9c0$@rainier66.com> References: <001f01d6dba6$d8bce340$8a36a9c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: The French beat this guy to it: https://www.tetongravity.com/video/adventure/a-french-guy-just-flew-a-jetpack-across-the-english-channel On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 8:49 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > They are now claiming this is real. A guy has been seen flying with a jet > pack. I saw the company site for this a coupla yrs ago but discounted the > notion, or was dubious. Now it looks like it is probably true: > > > > https://www.startengine.com/jetpack-aviation > > > > If so, this was a very impressive controls feat. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sat Dec 26 17:22:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 09:22:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] good article about discussion moderation Message-ID: <004001d6dbab$a7fe74d0$f7fb5e70$@rainier66.com> Hey check this. We have been doing the whole anonymous moderator at this site for a few months now (along with an unmoderated sister-site Extropolis.) I am ready to adjudicate the experiment a success. Our own anonymous ExiMod has not only refrained from power abuse, ExiMod has not even posted the ominous comment ?muwaahahahahaaaaa?? Debate still rages on the correct number of evil has are to follow the initial evil muwaa, being as our own forum cannot resolve this longstanding mystery. Here?s the article: Quotes: People who grew up with the internet of the 1990s probably remember forums ? those clunky, lo-fi spaces where people came together to argue about cars, cycling, video games, cooking, or a million other topics. They had their problems, but in retrospect the internet of those days felt like a magical land of possibility, not a place for organizing pogroms. What killed most forums is the same thing that killed local journalism across the country, and has turned the internet into a cesspool of abuse, racism, and genocidal propaganda.... ------- And that brings me back to the forums and blog comment sections of old. The reason these worked as well as they did was not just that people could post on them from anywhere on the globe (though that of course was a precondition). The reason was moderation . Participants quickly realized that if there weren't clear rules about what could be posted, the place would quickly be overrun by trolls or straight-up Nazis, and developed quality standards they could enforce through warnings or bans. That in turn implies a modest scale, because moderating requires work, which is expensive and even to this day impossible to automate well . Mods of course could be abusive, as any person with power can be. But they were key to the functioning of the early internet ? and the tiny size of most forums meant that even the bad ones couldn't destabilize entire nations. ------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 27 16:45:18 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 08:45:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the brits do it again Message-ID: <004a01d6dc6f$a9c6b1a0$fd5414e0$@rainier66.com> The British know how to have some fun. BillK, thanks to you sir, and your countrymen. This definitely brightened my day: https://youtu.be/IvY-Abd2FfM spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 18:18:08 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 18:18:08 +0000 Subject: [ExI] the brits do it again In-Reply-To: <004a01d6dc6f$a9c6b1a0$fd5414e0$@rainier66.com> References: <004a01d6dc6f$a9c6b1a0$fd5414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 16:47, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > The British know how to have some fun. BillK, thanks to you sir, and your countrymen. This definitely brightened my day: > > https://youtu.be/IvY-Abd2FfM > > spike > _______________________________________________ This video is an example of the deepfake videos that I posted about a few days ago. Some people have complained that it is disrespectful. Well, obviously! :) These deepfake videos will get people really confused. Even Netflix TV drama shows like 'The Crown' get some people thinking it is a documentary so they complain that it is misleading and not describing what actually happened. A fake video can spread lies around the world before the first debunk report appears. And the fake will probably be remembered for longer. Who knew the Queen had such good dance moves? BillK From bronto at pobox.com Sun Dec 27 18:49:59 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 10:49:59 -0800 Subject: [ExI] the brits do it again In-Reply-To: References: <004a01d6dc6f$a9c6b1a0$fd5414e0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <0a05671b-9c3d-88ef-8b6c-8907632cb979@pobox.com> On 2020-12-27 10:18, BillK via extropy-chat wrote: > Who knew the Queen had such good dance moves? A very different question occurred to me: Did she have a system for naming dogs? (Past tense as I hear she no longer breeds them.) -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 18:52:31 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:52:31 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative Message-ID: https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. bill w -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Sun Dec 27 19:10:34 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 11:10:34 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: [ExI] very informative https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ >?I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. >?Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. bill w Thanks for that billw. What Prager describes as liberal is something I have always thought of as libertarian. I agree with everything he said in that video. You and I are liberals. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Sun Dec 27 23:04:45 2020 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:04:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Since I am trying to be more positive this month I will start off by saying something positive about the video: I did not notice any spelling errors. I was very disappointed in the content of the video however not surprised.? I am not going to waste my time going through the video point by point however I will offer one example from the beginning.? Near the beginning of the video is the assertion that the Liberal Position concerning "The color of a person's skin" is "Insignificant" about 44 seconds in? the video.? Of course as a blanket statement this is misleading in large part because it does not provide context for that assertion. Consider the context of finding a job or renting an apartment, certainly many people apply for jobs or apartments and are not selected however if (all other things being equal) persons with dark skin are proportionately less likely to get the job or apartment then skin color is significant; in fact skin color has an observational significance which is necessary before one can even consider explanatory significance. Now I suspect that at this point there are fingers poised over keyboards about to explain how this is obviously not what was meant.? I am not going to say that I know the inner thoughts of the the person in the video nor will I say that the person is necessarily deliberately being dishonest however I will urge great caution before signing on too quickly to their rhetoric.? For example I would not be surprised if some are about ready to write something about the "Liberal Position" being that skin color is insignificant as relates to the "Rule of Law" and that "Rule of Law" is a "Good Thing" or something similar.? So consider the example of a fine for speeding with nothing in the law relating to skin color in relation to the amount of the fine. At first glance one might say skin color is not significant since it is not mentioned in the law however consider how it plays out for very poor people who might not have the money to pay the fine and might wind up with a suspended driving license and then get caught driving to work on a suspended license and are jailed and then lose their job whereas the relatively financially well of pull out their American Express card and problem goes away with much lower impact on their daily life.? Now if poor people are disproportionately of a particular skin color or ethnicity or religion or whatever would that be significant?? What about right dominant hand versus left dominant? hand? If some law does not mention dominant hand however if persons with a left dominant hand are getting fined more often in proportion to their level in the population would not you say the dominant hand might maybe perhaps be significant and at least worth considering. One reason I am taking the time to write this is that I have seen well meaning people fall into the trap of uncritically accepting "skin color is not significant" or "color blind to race" when they mean that they do their best not to prejudge someone based on skin color.? However things get sticky when these same well meaning people start to try to talk about some phenomena where skin color might be an important consideration and persons who do not want the conversation to take place or who want to steer it in a different direction say "Wait why are you bringing up skin color, did not we all agree that skin color was insignificant. Only racists want to talk about race all of the time" and the conversation either gets derailed or never gets started.? So to avoid this I strongly suggest we all developed nuanced and sophisticated views on race, gender, etc.? And as for the video I suggest those who initially thought it a good video put on your Popperian hats and look at every statement in the video and think of examples which contradict what is said as well as what is implied. Seriously.? This is an extropian email list. I wrote at the beginning of my remarks that I was disappointed in the content of the video but not surprised.? So to continue that thought I will note that I have not seen very many prageru.com videos however each that I have seen appears to be intellectually shallow.? So I will end these comments by noting that this video is consistent in that tradition. Fred On 12/27/2020 11:10 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] very informative > > https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ > > > >?I simply did not know.? When liberals have been attacked I have > defended them.? But what I did not know was that it is not the > ultraliberals who came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. > > >?Very clear differences.? I am most definitely a liberal and not a > Leftist.? bill w > > Thanks for that billw. ?What Prager describes as liberal is something > I have always thought of as libertarian.? I agree with everything he > said in that video.? You and I are liberals. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 23:22:03 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:22:03 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Message-ID: Skin color as insignificant is an ideal, certainly not a reality. I am still learning about the distinction between Leftists and liberals and the conservatives. Anything that goes beyond, contradicts the video, I would like to see in a post. Where are these Leftists, aside from the professors in the Ivy League who are said to hate America and the European culture? Democrats? Repubs? I don't know who these guys are. Help! bill w On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:06 PM F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Since I am trying to be more positive this month I will start off by > saying something positive about the video: I did not notice any spelling > errors. > > I was very disappointed in the content of the video however not > surprised. I am not going to waste my time going through the video point > by point however I will offer one example from the beginning. Near the > beginning of the video is the assertion that the Liberal Position > concerning "The color of a person's skin" is "Insignificant" about 44 > seconds in the video. Of course as a blanket statement this is misleading > in large part because it does not provide context for that assertion. > Consider the context of finding a job or renting an apartment, certainly > many people apply for jobs or apartments and are not selected however if > (all other things being equal) persons with dark skin are proportionately > less likely to get the job or apartment then skin color is significant; in > fact skin color has an observational significance which is necessary before > one can even consider explanatory significance. > > Now I suspect that at this point there are fingers poised over keyboards > about to explain how this is obviously not what was meant. I am not going > to say that I know the inner thoughts of the the person in the video nor > will I say that the person is necessarily deliberately being dishonest > however I will urge great caution before signing on too quickly to their > rhetoric. For example I would not be surprised if some are about ready to > write something about the "Liberal Position" being that skin color is > insignificant as relates to the "Rule of Law" and that "Rule of Law" is a > "Good Thing" or something similar. So consider the example of a fine for > speeding with nothing in the law relating to skin color in relation to the > amount of the fine. At first glance one might say skin color is not > significant since it is not mentioned in the law however consider how it > plays out for very poor people who might not have the money to pay the fine > and might wind up with a suspended driving license and then get caught > driving to work on a suspended license and are jailed and then lose their > job whereas the relatively financially well of pull out their American > Express card and problem goes away with much lower impact on their daily > life. Now if poor people are disproportionately of a particular skin color > or ethnicity or religion or whatever would that be significant? What about > right dominant hand versus left dominant hand? If some law does not > mention dominant hand however if persons with a left dominant hand are > getting fined more often in proportion to their level in the population > would not you say the dominant hand might maybe perhaps be significant and > at least worth considering. > > One reason I am taking the time to write this is that I have seen well > meaning people fall into the trap of uncritically accepting "skin color is > not significant" or "color blind to race" when they mean that they do their > best not to prejudge someone based on skin color. However things get > sticky when these same well meaning people start to try to talk about some > phenomena where skin color might be an important consideration and persons > who do not want the conversation to take place or who want to steer it in a > different direction say "Wait why are you bringing up skin color, did not > we all agree that skin color was insignificant. Only racists want to talk > about race all of the time" and the conversation either gets derailed or > never gets started. So to avoid this I strongly suggest we all developed > nuanced and sophisticated views on race, gender, etc. And as for the video > I suggest those who initially thought it a good video put on your Popperian > hats and look at every statement in the video and think of examples which > contradict what is said as well as what is implied. Seriously. This is an > extropian email list. > > I wrote at the beginning of my remarks that I was disappointed in the > content of the video but not surprised. So to continue that thought I will > note that I have not seen very many prageru.com videos however each that > I have seen appears to be intellectually shallow. So I will end these > comments by noting that this video is consistent in that tradition. > > Fred > On 12/27/2020 11:10 AM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > *Subject:* [ExI] very informative > > > > https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ > > > > >?I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have > defended them. But what I did not know was that it is not the > ultraliberals who came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. > > > > >?Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a > Leftist. bill w > > > > > > Thanks for that billw. What Prager describes as liberal is something I > have always thought of as libertarian. I agree with everything he said in > that video. You and I are liberals. > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing listextropy-chat at lists.extropy.orghttp://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > > -- > F. C. Moultonmoulton at moulton.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 23:25:30 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 23:25:30 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 23:07, F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat wrote: > > Since I am trying to be more positive this month I will start off by saying something positive about the video: I did not notice any spelling errors. > > > I wrote at the beginning of my remarks that I was disappointed in the content of the video but not surprised. So to continue that thought I will note that I have not seen very many prageru.com videos however each that I have seen appears to be intellectually shallow. So I will end these comments by noting that this video is consistent in that tradition. > > Fred > > -- > F. C. Moulton > moulton at moulton.com > _______________________________________________ See: Extract: Overall, we rate PragerU Questionable based on extreme right-wing bias, promotion of propaganda, the use of poor sources who have failed fact checks, and the publication of misleading information regarding immigration and climate change. ------------- BillK From interzone at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 23:40:07 2020 From: interzone at gmail.com (Dylan Distasio) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 18:40:07 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Message-ID: Two comments... - I saw nothing in that video in terms of describing leftist ideology that was untrue. - Any fact checking site labeling PraegerU or Dennis as extreme right wing is laughably inaccurate and a sign of the extreme bias present in both the mainstream media and these supposedly unbiased factchecking sites at this point. The site would have been labeled as Conservative around a decade ago before the current insanity fully took root. Then again, the ACLU was actually still protecting free speech at that point. Quite a bit has changed over the past 5 years. On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 6:28 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 23:07, F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Since I am trying to be more positive this month I will start off by > saying something positive about the video: I did not notice any spelling > errors. > > > > > > > I wrote at the beginning of my remarks that I was disappointed in the > content of the video but not surprised. So to continue that thought I will > note that I have not seen very many prageru.com videos however each that > I have seen appears to be intellectually shallow. So I will end these > comments by noting that this video is consistent in that tradition. > > > > Fred > > > > -- > > F. C. Moulton > > moulton at moulton.com > > _______________________________________________ > > > See: > Extract: > Overall, we rate PragerU Questionable based on extreme right-wing > bias, promotion of propaganda, the use of poor sources who have failed > fact checks, and the publication of misleading information regarding > immigration and climate change. > ------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 23:49:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:49:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Message-ID: Well, Bill K, I don't care who informs me of the differences between Leftism and liberalism. If that video is wrong, I will be glad to find out how and where it is. My concern is theoretical - who believes what and what is their label? bill w On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 5:28 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2020 at 23:07, F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Since I am trying to be more positive this month I will start off by > saying something positive about the video: I did not notice any spelling > errors. > > > > > > > I wrote at the beginning of my remarks that I was disappointed in the > content of the video but not surprised. So to continue that thought I will > note that I have not seen very many prageru.com videos however each that > I have seen appears to be intellectually shallow. So I will end these > comments by noting that this video is consistent in that tradition. > > > > Fred > > > > -- > > F. C. Moulton > > moulton at moulton.com > > _______________________________________________ > > > See: > Extract: > Overall, we rate PragerU Questionable based on extreme right-wing > bias, promotion of propaganda, the use of poor sources who have failed > fact checks, and the publication of misleading information regarding > immigration and climate change. > ------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 28 00:07:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 16:07:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> <6a664b09-8b92-bb14-d8b9-0ae1297eb27e@moulton.com> Message-ID: <003601d6dcad$795736a0$6c05a3e0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat >?I am still learning about the distinction between Leftists and liberals and the conservatives? bill w Same here. I have long thought the USA needs three mainstream schools of thought and three mainstream parties rather than two. The Brits make that system work and demonstrate the advantages. There is no better time than now to create three from two. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Dec 28 00:28:45 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 16:28:45 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> References: <008d01d6dc83$f47875d0$dd696170$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-27 11:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Thanks for that billw. ?What Prager describes as liberal is something I > have always thought of as libertarian.? I agree with everything he said > in that video.? You and I are liberals. So freedom of movement across artificial boundaries is not a libertarian position? Well, not gonna argue that here. Prager also seems to have a statist post-hoc concept of nationalism. Historically, nationalism was about what we might call "natural" nations, tied by culture and kinship, as OPPOSED to the borders created by wars and the homogenizing campaigns of authoritarian regimes beginning with radical republican France. Would Prager say "Basque nationalism", for example, is a contradiction in terms because there is no sovereign Basque state? If right and left have any consistent meaning in different places and times, I'd say the right seeks social stability and the left seeks social equality. Both of these terms are quite broad, and within them the emphasis varies pretty widely. But neither has much room for anti-authoritarianism, for a contractual social order as against a status order. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 02:11:40 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 18:11:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:? > https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ > > I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. > > Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. bill w Sorry, PragerU is RW propaganda. Wouldn?t trust them if they told me the sky were blue. I?m unapologetically on the Left. Regards, Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 02:21:42 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 20:21:42 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sometimes you just have to expose yourself to the other sides. I have been remiss about that. What are they saying and how do we counter that? bill w On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 8:13 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Dec 27, 2020, at 10:56 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:? > > https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ > > I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended > them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who > came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. > > Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a > Leftist. bill w > > > Sorry, PragerU is RW propaganda. Wouldn?t trust them if they told me the > sky were blue. > > I?m unapologetically on the Left. > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Dec 28 03:40:24 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 19:40:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2eb77997-5fa3-4fcd-4dc8-043ef4dac5a7@pobox.com> On 2020-12-27 18:11, Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat wrote: > I?m unapologetically on the Left. But not, as far as I can tell, on the Left that Prager describes. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From danust2012 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 04:00:36 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 04:00:36 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Sometimes you just have to expose yourself to the other sides. I have been remiss about that. > What are they saying and how do we counter that? bill w I have been exposed to enough PragerU for now. Years ago, I ran into their stuff. No need to dig deeper. It's fairly obvious where they stand and one needn't waste one's time on every piece of propaganda out there. It's fine if you want to go there, but know that I'm not speaking from ignorance. Overall, I've heard the conservative and RW points of view with regard to race and the evils of the Left so much... They're fairly hard to avoid, especially in libertarian circles. (Same thing when someone mentioned Cass Sustein. By the time he was mentioned in an Extropian venue, I'd already heard about him for years literally.) Regards, Dan From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 14:25:41 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 08:25:41 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to persuade. All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various positions. bill w On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 10:02 PM Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:23 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > Sometimes you just have to expose yourself to the other sides. I have > been remiss about that. > > What are they saying and how do we counter that? bill w > > I have been exposed to enough PragerU for now. Years ago, I ran into > their stuff. No need to dig deeper. It's fairly obvious where they > stand and one needn't waste one's time on every piece of propaganda > out there. It's fine if you want to go there, but know that I'm not > speaking from ignorance. Overall, I've heard the conservative and RW > points of view with regard to race and the evils of the Left so > much... They're fairly hard to avoid, especially in libertarian > circles. (Same thing when someone mentioned Cass Sustein. By the time > he was mentioned in an Extropian venue, I'd already heard about him > for years literally.) > > Regards, > > Dan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 11:11:53 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 06:11:53 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year Message-ID: One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============= One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. ============== Happy New Year all. I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in a dream. PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from today. John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Mon Dec 28 16:25:28 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 08:25:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7187631c-754a-9ad9-4a6e-75a4f0b6026d@pobox.com> On 2020-12-28 06:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > persuade.? All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various?positions. At the end he says "So, liberals, [we] conservatives are your natural allies, not the Left." That's probably not disinterested. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Mon Dec 28 16:43:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 08:43:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <7187631c-754a-9ad9-4a6e-75a4f0b6026d@pobox.com> References: <7187631c-754a-9ad9-4a6e-75a4f0b6026d@pobox.com> Message-ID: <006b01d6dd38$9cd43bb0$d67cb310$@rainier66.com> On 2020-12-28 06:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > persuade. All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various positions. Ja, I didn't see anything in there advocating any particular viewpoint, but rather differentiating between two viewpoints on several areas of interest currently. What I didn't see is any differentiation between liberal and left on the question of federal budget deficits, something which just isn't talked about much in our times. I can't imagine why not. To me, that seems far more important than any of the other areas covered in the video. spike From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 28 17:18:16 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:18:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Saturnalia (was: Re: I caught the covid) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/12/2020 23:05, John Grigg wrote: > I have a Jewish friend back home who got very hot under the collar > when I greeted him once with "Merry Christmas!" This surprised me > because other Jews I had known over the years had no problem with the > holiday. But then this guy is a classic old school NYC Jew who was > also my chiropractor. > Ok, I don't understand this attitude. What did he expect? That you should convert to orthodox judaism? If someone wishes me a 'happy hannukah', I'm not going to go ballistic on them and say they should be wishing me 'merry xmas' instead. Why can't we all accept that there are different festivals, different traditions, and some of us celebrate some of them and others celebrate others, and just be happy about it? It's all good, and interesting to learn about different cultures. Nobody needs to impose anything on anyone else. Felicitous Saturnalia! or whatever floats your boat. Ben From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 28 17:23:42 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:23:42 +0000 Subject: [ExI] good article about discussion moderation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27/12/2020 23:05, Spike wrote: > > Hey check this.? We have been doing the whole anonymous moderator at > this site for a few months now (along with an unmoderated sister-site > Extropolis.)? I am ready to adjudicate the experiment a success.? Our > own anonymous ExiMod has not only refrained from power abuse, ExiMod > has not even posted the ominous comment ?muwaahahahahaaaaa??? Debate > still rages on the correct number of evil has are to follow the > initial evil muwaa, being as our own forum cannot resolve this > longstanding mystery. > > Here?s the article: > > > I'll wait to hear from John K Clark before I form an opinion on this. His voice has been glaringly absent as of late. -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Mon Dec 28 17:41:19 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:41:19 +0000 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/12/2020 17:18, John K Clark wrote: > One year ago I sent the following post to the list ... Thanks, John! I was afraid you'd been banished altogether, or otherwise driven away, and someone else was going to have to issue this very important annual reminder. Merry superstition-riddled mythological festival, and a happy new arbitrary orbital time-period! -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 17:51:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:51:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <006b01d6dd38$9cd43bb0$d67cb310$@rainier66.com> References: <7187631c-754a-9ad9-4a6e-75a4f0b6026d@pobox.com> <006b01d6dd38$9cd43bb0$d67cb310$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: For the last however many years, I have not read much at all about the deficit. It's like the weather: talked about but nothing done about. No politician currently is going to try to undermine Medicare, Social Security, etc. Political death would follow. Spike, why don't you run for Congress and wake those people up? bill w On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 10:45 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On 2020-12-28 06:25, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > > persuade. All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various > positions. > > > Ja, I didn't see anything in there advocating any particular viewpoint, > but rather differentiating between two viewpoints on several areas of > interest currently. What I didn't see is any differentiation between > liberal and left on the question of federal budget deficits, something > which just isn't talked about much in our times. I can't imagine why not. > To me, that seems far more important than any of the other areas covered in > the video. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brent.allsop at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:39:36 2020 From: brent.allsop at gmail.com (Brent Allsop) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 12:39:36 -0700 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I Agree. I also enjoyed your predictions like it'd be very hard to get Trump out of office, once he got in. Trump is trying as hard as he can to fulfil your prophecy. Thankfully, so far at least, the system seems to be working. On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 10:42 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 28/12/2020 17:18, John K Clark wrote: > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list ... > > > Thanks, John! > > I was afraid you'd been banished altogether, or otherwise driven away, and > someone else was going to have to issue this very important annual reminder. > > Merry superstition-riddled mythological festival, and a happy new > arbitrary orbital time-period! > > -- > Ben Zaiboc > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From col.hales at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:56:43 2020 From: col.hales at gmail.com (Colin Hales) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 06:56:43 +1100 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks John. 14 years! .... and the world is increasingly converting itself into a place where fact and subjective truthiness battle it out daily. Fact is wounded, gasping for air. And the stakes have never been higher. Check out the doco 'Death to 2020' on Netflix. Enjoy. All the best for the coming year. Colin On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 3:01 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============= > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one > word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. > > ============== > > Happy New Year all. > > I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in > Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, > after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no > training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the > good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this > very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I > predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about > it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an > eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs > boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in > Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true > because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in > a dream. > > PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year from > today. > > John K Clark > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zoielsoy at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 20:21:24 2020 From: zoielsoy at gmail.com (Angel Z. Lopez) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:21:24 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can only predict the future by believing there was a past. Perhaps you already sent the same message 14 times in the future? On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 2:56 PM Colin Hales via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Thanks John. > > 14 years! .... and the world is increasingly converting itself into a > place where fact and subjective truthiness battle it out daily. Fact is > wounded, gasping for air. > And the stakes have never been higher. > > Check out the doco 'Death to 2020' on Netflix. Enjoy. > > All the best for the coming year. > Colin > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 3:01 AM John Clark via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============= >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> One year ago I sent the following post to the list, I did not change one >> word. One year from now I intend to send this same message yet again. >> >> ============== >> >> Happy New Year all. >> >> I predict that a paper reporting positive psi results will NOT appear in >> Nature or Science in the next year. This may seem an outrageous prediction, >> after all psi is hardly a rare phenomena, millions of people with no >> training have managed to observe it, or claim they have. And I am sure the >> good people at Nature and Science would want to say something about this >> very important and obvious part of our natural world if they could, but I >> predict they will be unable to find anything interesting to say about >> it.You might think my prediction is crazy, like saying a waitress with an >> eighth grade education in Duluth Minnesota can regularly observe the Higgs >> boson with no difficulty but the highly trained Physicists at CERN in >> Switzerland cannot. Nevertheless I am confident my prediction is true >> because my ghostly spirit guide Mohammad Duntoldme spoke to me about it in >> a dream. >> >> PS: I am also confident I can make this very same prediction one year >> from today. >> >> John K Clark >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Mon Dec 28 22:49:09 2020 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 14:49:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/20 6:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > persuade.? All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various?positions. > bill w One method to persuade is to make inaccurate or misleading statements which might tend to persuade people of some position. The video in questions contains inaccurate or misleading statements. One could take the position that the inaccurate or misleading statements instead of being deliberate falsehoods are instead the result of the prageru.com team which being uninformed. Of course this raises the question of whether this lack of basic knowledge is the result of cognitive problems or if it is the result of deliberately failing to do basic investigation and study. Whether it is sloppy scholarship or malicious propaganda the point remains that the prageru.com video does not stand up to serious scrutiny. -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 01:11:26 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:11:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> >...> On Behalf Of F. C. Moulton Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On 12/28/20 6:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > persuade. All I saw on the video was descriptions of the various positions. > bill w One method to persuade is to make inaccurate or misleading statements which might tend to persuade people of some position. The video in questions contains inaccurate or misleading statements. One could take the position that the inaccurate or misleading statements instead of being deliberate falsehoods are instead the result of the prageru.com team which being uninformed. Of course this raises the question of whether this lack of basic knowledge is the result of cognitive problems or if it is the result of deliberately failing to do basic investigation and study. Whether it is sloppy scholarship or malicious propaganda the point remains that the prageru.com video does not stand up to serious scrutiny. -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com _______________________________________________ We could go this route with it: ignore the names of the categories Left and Liberal, go to asking a different question: do people fall into general categories based on their answer to those questions Prager presented? Let's look at the question of how many races are there? A nuanced approach fails, for that answer is either 1 or more than 1, and it is presumably an integer. I go with 1 on that. Is capitalism good? I answer good. It raises the masses out of poverty. Is nationalism a good thing? I will go with good on that. I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. View of America: I view America as good. Free speech: the freer the better. By Prager's definition, I am liberal. Sure OK, I will buy it. People do split in their answers to those questions. I see nothing in the Prager presentation I would disagree with. spike From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 29 01:43:25 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:43:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-28 17:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Let's look at the question of how many races are there? A nuanced > approach fails, for that answer is either 1 or more than 1, and it > is presumably an integer. I go with 1 on that. Now I'm thinking about how to count fuzzy sets. > Is nationalism a good thing? I will go with good on that. Why? How do you define it? > I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal > immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. Do you trust politicians to make a good definition? We got along for a century without one. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 02:35:40 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:35:40 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On 2020-12-28 17:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Let's look at the question of how many races are there? A nuanced > approach fails, for that answer is either 1 or more than 1, and it > is presumably an integer. I go with 1 on that. >...Now I'm thinking about how to count fuzzy sets... {8^D Fuzzy or otherwise, we liberals find that question pretty easy: it's 1. Any fuzzy answer to that question looks suspicious and leads to logical contradictions. We can easily observe that modern society is up to its eyeballs in logical contradictions. > > Is nationalism a good thing? I will go with good on that. >...Why? How do you define it? A country is nationalist if it keeps and enforces its borders. Its citizens pay taxes and have privileges that visitors do not have. >... > I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal > immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. >...Do you trust politicians to make a good definition? We got along for a century without one... Anton I don't trust politicians for anything. I see too few of them who I consider trustworthy. The days when we could get by without immigration enforcement of some kind came to an end with income tax. As soon as that came about, entitlements resulted. With that, there must be some means of insuring that entitlements are not collected by those not entitled to them. spike -- From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 02:46:08 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:46:08 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > ?On 2020-12-28 17:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > > Let's look at the question of how many races are there? A nuanced > > approach fails, for that answer is either 1 or more than 1, and it > > is presumably an integer. I go with 1 on that. > > Now I'm thinking about how to count fuzzy sets. Race as commonly used is, again, a social construct. That?s why the number is kind of arbitrary. (Of course, since people do engage in racism, this means the social construct is sadly very powerful in many situations. Ditto for gender, sexual orientation, and the like.) > > Is nationalism a good thing? I will go with good on that. > > Why? > How do you define it? Nationalism is strange here because it?s probably one of the most deadliest ideas in history. It?s been used to justify ethnic cleansing, wars of unification, and mass killings from the 19th century onwards. (I don?t mean you here. I?m not saying you?re guilty of being a nationalist.) > > I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal > > immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. > > Do you trust politicians to make a good definition? > We got along for a century without one. You my stance is open borders. I find hard to believe that folks who identify as libertarians (again, not you) or liberals ? both of which share of underlying belief in universal rights or don?t see national origin, race, ethnicity (or sex, gender, orientation) as determining different classes of individuals in terms of their legal freedoms ? seeing a national border as sacrosanct and seeing (some) for people inside the nation as having special powers to exclude those outside the nation. Regards, Dan From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 02:54:52 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:54:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> References: <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <05A1CD25-97B9-434C-BB60-C4F56BACAF8D@gmail.com> On Dec 28, 2020, at 6:37 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote:? >> On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative > >> On 2020-12-28 17:11, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> Let's look at the question of how many races are there? A nuanced > > approach fails, for that answer is either 1 or more than 1, and it > is > presumably an integer. I go with 1 on that. > >> ...Now I'm thinking about how to count fuzzy sets... > > {8^D > > Fuzzy or otherwise, we liberals find that question pretty easy: it's 1. Any > fuzzy answer to that question looks suspicious and leads to logical > contradictions. We can easily observe that modern society is up to its > eyeballs in logical contradictions. > >>> Is nationalism a good thing? I will go with good on that. > >> ...Why? > How do you define it? > > A country is nationalist if it keeps and enforces its borders. Its citizens > pay taxes and have privileges that visitors do not have. > >> ... > I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal > > immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. > >> ...Do you trust politicians to make a good definition? > We got along for a century without one... Anton > > I don't trust politicians for anything. I see too few of them who I > consider trustworthy. > > The days when we could get by without immigration enforcement of some kind > came to an end with income tax. As soon as that came about, entitlements > resulted. With that, there must be some means of insuring that entitlements > are not collected by those not entitled to them. Why the fuck would migration controls bear on this? You could simply, if you believe entitlements are sacrosanct, not provide them to migrants. Typically, though, libertarians don?t use the welfare state?s existence to justify restricting freedom. Would you argue that since there?s entitlements to medical care, that there should be restrictions on guns and other weapons? After all, people get injured using them and taxpayers shouldn?t be forced to pay for that stuff, right? (I?m guessing you won?t want that. If so, apply the same logic to moving across a national border.) To wit, crossing a national border per se doesn?t generate any rights issues for anyone. Nor does having a handgun per se. Or watching porn per se. Or engaging in sex work per se. Etc. But if you want to argue along the lines of someone doing these might go on the dole or harm others, then be prepared to surrender all freedom. Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 03:07:39 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:07:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat >...Nationalism is strange here because it?s probably one of the most deadliest ideas in history. It?s been used to justify ethnic cleansing, wars of unification, and mass killings from the 19th century onwards. (I don?t mean you here. I?m not saying you?re guilty of being a nationalist.) This conflates nationalism with these other things. If nationalism is not used for these other things, but rather only to determine who gets social security and medicare, then fair game. I don't see the parallel between that and ethnic cleansing etc. spike From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 03:19:46 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:19:46 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: God damn not to be a dick but you baby boomers have no fucking clue how to navigate the world wide web. PragerU for fucks sake. Thank god I'm an internet native -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 03:31:35 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:31:35 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >?God damn not to be a dick but you baby boomers have no fucking clue how to navigate the world wide web. PragerU for fucks sake. Thank god I'm an internet native Cool an internet native who will know the answer. Will, how many races are there? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 03:56:43 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:56:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <003d01d6dd96$9f85b060$de911120$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >>?God damn not to be a dick but you baby boomers have no fucking clue how to navigate the world wide web. PragerU for fucks sake. Thank god I'm an internet native ?Will >?Cool an internet native who will know the answer. >?Will, how many races are there? >?spike Will, do feel free to navigate all over the world wide web for that answer. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 03:59:22 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:59:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020, 10:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Cool an internet native who will know the answer. > > > > Will, how many races are there? > Internet natives recognize only one: human Though humans frequently do express their situation as a "rat race" and some close competitions are "neck and neck" as in horse races. We have previously discussed car races, but I think those who know better refer to them as "make and model" Tachycardia can make your heart race. Perhaps less exciting to some, the channel for a set of ball bearings is also a race. Now that I enumerate, there are many races... probably none of which were as you meant. I'll stick with your recent guidance on counting: for the sake of discussion, call it "one" :) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 04:03:25 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <003d01d6dd96$9f85b060$de911120$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <003d01d6dd96$9f85b060$de911120$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: I don't know, what do you think? On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 10:57 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] very informative > > > > >>?God damn not to be a dick but you baby boomers have no fucking clue how > to navigate the world wide web. PragerU for fucks sake. Thank god I'm an > internet native ?Will > > > > > > >?Cool an internet native who will know the answer. > > > > >?Will, how many races are there? > > > > >?spike > > > > > > Will, do feel free to navigate all over the world wide web for that answer. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 04:25:50 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:25:50 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> >?> On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On Mon, Dec 28, 2020, 10:33 PM spike jones via extropy-chat > wrote: Cool an internet native who will know the answer. Will, how many races are there? >?Internet natives recognize only one: human? >?Now that I enumerate, there are many races... probably none of which were as you meant. I'll stick with your recent guidance on counting: for the sake of discussion, call it "one" :) Thanks Mike. >>?Will, how many races are there??spike >?I don't know, what do you think? I am staying with one. The University of California system goes with that answer, and they are more knowledgeable on it than I am: they have race and gender studies. That answer has consequences however. For instance, since there is only one race, then the rules are the same for everyone. That alone has enormous consequences. For instance, most of the rap stars use a racist term, so must be called out for what they are: racists. Another consequence: if there is only one race, then race studies merge with psychology, which is study of humanity. I hadn?t really thought of those as the same thing, but it would hafta be, ja? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 04:36:54 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:36:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020, 11:27 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Another consequence: if there is only one race, then race studies merge > with psychology, which is study of humanity. I hadn?t really thought of > those as the same thing, but it would hafta be, ja? > Psychology is the study of A mind Sociology is the study of group(s) of minds So I think whatever-was race studies is a discussion of sociology. And yes, the consequences would be profound. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From danust2012 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 04:48:06 2020 From: danust2012 at gmail.com (Dan TheBookMan) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:48:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Dec 28, 2020, at 7:09 PM, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > >> ...Nationalism is strange here because it?s probably one of the most deadliest ideas in history. It?s been used to justify ethnic cleansing, wars of unification, and mass killings from the 19th century onwards. (I don?t mean you here. I?m not saying you?re guilty of being a nationalist.) > > This conflates nationalism with these other things. Reread what I actually wrote. I didn?t say nationalism was those things, but that it?s used to justify them. In this regard, it?s one of the strongest means to get people to commit atrocities. (I know you?ll point out there are other means, but that?s beside the point. Do you agree it?s one of the strongest means?) > If nationalism is not used for these other things, but rather only to determine who gets social security and medicare, then fair game. I don't see the parallel between that and ethnic cleansing etc. Easy. Once you start with the premise that those inside the nation are above those outside, the rest often does follow. This is how, for instance, you get the US government separating immigrant kids and then putting them in cages with cement floors with most folks not batting an eye or even worse blaming the immigrants for this. Again, funny how folks who claim to be libertarians have no problem bowing to the entitlement programs argument to curtail freedom. Would you, again, be willing to curtain gun rights as long as there are medical entitlements? After all, people get injured by guns and then might use tax provided medical services. Well? Or dodge the question again. ;) Regards, Dan From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 05:00:46 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:00:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000b01d6dd9f$9271abf0$b75503d0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dan TheBookMan via extropy-chat > This conflates nationalism with these other things. >...Reread what I actually wrote. I didn?t say nationalism was those things, but that it?s used to justify them... It doesn't justify them. These things you listed cannot be justified, so it cannot legitimately be conflated with nationalism. >... Do you agree it?s one of the strongest means?) I disagree. Nationalism cannot be used to justify atrocities of any kind. Atrocities cannot be justified. >...Easy. Once you start with the premise that those inside the nation are above those outside... Nationalism doesn't start out with that premise. The premise you suggested could lead to atrocities. >...Again, funny how folks who claim to be libertarians have no problem bowing to the entitlement programs argument to curtail freedom. Would you, again, be willing to curtain gun rights as long as there are medical entitlements? ... Dan _______________________________________________ Gun rights are human rights. It is based on the human right to lethal self-defense. Entitlements came later. Those two cannot be conflated. Conflating those two leads to violations of human rights. spike From moulton at moulton.com Tue Dec 29 05:07:41 2020 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:07:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <87fe1b71-d1dc-1e3c-b0cb-9683325a0707@moulton.com> It is unclear if people think they are being cute by saying "one race" without giving their context when clearly there are at least two different usages of the term. There is a usage as in the collective aggregation of all humans into what is often called the "human race" usually meaning the same as "humanity" or similar terms. There is the second usage which reflects a common usage classifying people based on skin color and other physical characteristics and sometimes ancestry. Now it is common knowledge that these classification schemes are social constructs yet that does not make the lived experience of the person who was denied a job or an apartment due to skin color any less real. Exactly what word or words would be useful in discussing the reason why someone is denied a job or an apartment due to the color of their skin? If you do not want to use the word "race" then what word is there to use that has explanatory power? The word "bigot" does not get the discussion going very far because it just raises the "bigoted for what reason" question. -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 05:17:41 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 21:17:41 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <87fe1b71-d1dc-1e3c-b0cb-9683325a0707@moulton.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> <87fe1b71-d1dc-1e3c-b0cb-9683325a0707@moulton.com> Message-ID: <000701d6dda1$ef531140$cdf933c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat Cc: F. C. Moulton Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >...It is unclear if people think they are being cute by saying "one race" without giving their context when clearly there are at least two different usages of the term... -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com _______________________________________________ This is a discussion to be taken up with the University of California system. They say there is one race. I don't recall them offering a context or nuances. They have entire undergraduate majors in that topic. It is not my area of expertise, so I will not contest their word on it. spike From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 29 07:08:07 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:08:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] so many kinds of race, was: very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-28 19:59, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > Though humans frequently do express their situation as a "rat race" and > some close competitions are "neck and neck" as in horse races.? We have > previously discussed car races, but I think those who know better refer > to them as "make and model"? Tachycardia can make your heart race. > Perhaps less exciting to some, the channel for a set of ball bearings is > also a race. I think a millrace is the channel that brings water to a drive wheel? And then the kind of race that I learned about in ... ah, I forget what the class was called that covered gate logic. Sometimes a change in one input can cause two or more "simultaneous" changes of internal state bits, but nothing is ever truly simultaneous and a variation in the speed of propagation of signals can lead to randomness if you're not careful. So what's that called, a logic race? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 29 08:19:22 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 00:19:22 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> References: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <1d141ca8-949a-dddb-4fa9-89b3e4158188@pobox.com> On 2020-12-28 18:35, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > A country is nationalist if it keeps and enforces its borders. Its > citizens pay taxes and have privileges that visitors do not have. California has well-defined borders, taxation, and benefits denied to non-residents (voting, cheap university). So is California nationalist? Spike: >>> I favor immigration, assuming legal immigration. To have legal >>> immigration, there must be some means of defining legal immigration. Anton: >> Do you trust politicians to make a good definition? >> We got along for a century without one. Spike: > I don't trust politicians for anything. > I see too few of them who I consider trustworthy. So then, how to define legal immigration? > The days when we could get by without immigration enforcement of some > kind came to an end with income tax. As soon as that came about, > entitlements resulted. With that, there must be some means of > insuring that entitlements are not collected by those not entitled > to them. Well heck, why not say it ended with the right to vote? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 12:06:54 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 07:06:54 -0500 Subject: [ExI] so many kinds of race, was: very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 2:10 AM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-28 19:59, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > > Though humans frequently do express their situation as a "rat race" and > > some close competitions are "neck and neck" as in horse races. We have > > previously discussed car races, but I think those who know better refer > > to them as "make and model" Tachycardia can make your heart race. > > Perhaps less exciting to some, the channel for a set of ball bearings is > > also a race. > > I think a millrace is the channel that brings water to a drive wheel? > > And then the kind of race that I learned about in ... ah, I forget what > the class was called that covered gate logic. Sometimes a change in one > input can cause two or more "simultaneous" changes of internal state > bits, but nothing is ever truly simultaneous and a variation in the > speed of propagation of signals can lead to randomness if you're not > careful. > So what's that called, a logic race? > "Race condition" I didn't think that domain of use was common enough to mention. h/t fellow CS nerd :) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 13:22:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 07:22:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, Mr. Moulton, why don't you come right out and say what is wrong with the video? Details, not generalities. bill w On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 4:51 PM F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On 12/28/20 6:25 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > I think for something to be propaganda there has to be attempts to > > persuade. All I saw on the video was descriptions of the > various positions. > > bill w > > One method to persuade is to make inaccurate or misleading statements > which might tend to persuade people of some position. The video in > questions contains inaccurate or misleading statements. One could take > the position that the inaccurate or misleading statements instead of > being deliberate falsehoods are instead the result of the prageru.com > team which being uninformed. Of course this raises the question of > whether this lack of basic knowledge is the result of cognitive problems > or if it is the result of deliberately failing to do basic investigation > and study. > > Whether it is sloppy scholarship or malicious propaganda the point > remains that the prageru.com video does not stand up to serious scrutiny. > > -- > F. C. Moulton > moulton at moulton.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 13:40:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 05:40:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <1d141ca8-949a-dddb-4fa9-89b3e4158188@pobox.com> References: <001101d6dd7f$8861bc60$99253520$@rainier66.com> <000701d6dd8b$4cd35800$e67a0800$@rainier66.com> <1d141ca8-949a-dddb-4fa9-89b3e4158188@pobox.com> Message-ID: <002001d6dde8$1bab2340$530169c0$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On 2020-12-28 18:35, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> A country is nationalist if it keeps and enforces its borders. Its > citizens pay taxes and have privileges that visitors do not have. >...California has well-defined borders, taxation, and benefits denied to non-residents (voting, cheap university). So is California nationalist? There are no immigration restrictions on California. Any US citizen can legally come here. The state of California doesn't support you after you retire however. It gently pushes you elsewhere, because the price of real estate is crazy high in most of the state, as well as the other state taxes. spike From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 13:45:27 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 08:45:27 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000701d6dda1$ef531140$cdf933c0$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> <87fe1b71-d1dc-1e3c-b0cb-9683325a0707@moulton.com> <000701d6dda1$ef531140$cdf933c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 12:19 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On Behalf Of F. C. Moulton via extropy-chat > Cc: F. C. Moulton > Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative > > >...It is unclear if people think they are being cute by saying "one race" > without giving their context when clearly there are at least two different > usages of the term... > > This is a discussion to be taken up with the University of California > system. They say there is one race. I don't recall them offering a > context > or nuances. They have entire undergraduate majors in that topic. It is > not > my area of expertise, so I will not contest their word on it. > I was ready to write a bunch of words, but after a time to think and seeing your deftly answered example above ... I'll save my breath, or the typing hands/fingers equivalent. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 13:46:30 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 05:46:30 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002101d6dde9$039ae690$0ad0b3b0$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >? come right out and say what is wrong with the video? ? bill w We might be able to come up with a list of areas in which liberal and left are two different things. This might be one of them: https://www.prageru.com/video/the-end-of-womens-sports/ spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnkclark at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 11:37:39 2020 From: johnkclark at gmail.com (John Clark) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 06:37:39 -0500 Subject: [ExI] A paranormal prediction for the next year In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 12:43 PM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: * > I was afraid you'd been banished altogether, or otherwise driven away, > and someone else was going to have to issue this very important annual > reminder.* > Thanks Ben, but I still have to get everything preapproved before it gets posted so I don't think I'll be posting very much over here anymore. If you want to see what we're up to on the other list take a look at: Extropolis John K Clark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 16:01:47 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 08:01:47 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <002d01d6dd93$1c800010$55800030$@rainier66.com> <006601d6dd9a$b07e7d30$117b7790$@rainier66.com> <87fe1b71-d1dc-1e3c-b0cb-9683325a0707@moulton.com> <000701d6dda1$ef531140$cdf933c0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <002601d6ddfb$e9c8f780$bd5ae680$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat >>? I will not contest their word on it. spike >?I was ready to write a bunch of words, but after a time to think and seeing your deftly answered example above ... I'll save my breath, or the typing hands/fingers equivalent. ? Mike Deftly? What is this deftly jazz? My bride is always accusing me of that, but it really isn?t. So I don?t always respond immediately to things, such as the doorbell, fire alarms, her urgent request for assistance in cleaning up the joint, that sorta thing. But I had my hearing checked and my doctor said it was something else causing the problem. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 16:52:28 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:52:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 1:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ > > I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended > them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who > came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. > > Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. > "Left" and "liberal" are labels. Prager is not a neutral party in the use or definition of these labels. Even with universally agreed upon definitions of the terms, which we don't have, a one-dimensional left/right or liberal/conservative spectrum is not sufficient to identify one's political beliefs to anything but the roughest approximation. We shouldn't use vague or misleading labels to identify our beliefs or attempt to apply labels to people that they don't agree with. Back in the Usenet days we used geek codes < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code> to summarize our interests/activities/beliefs/skills. Maybe we need something like that. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 17:10:25 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 09:10:25 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003601d6de05$804cd510$80e67f30$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of Dave Sill via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 1:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >?Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. >? "Left" and "liberal" are labels. Prager is not a neutral party in the use or definition of these labels? -Dave Billw?s comment appears to align with this prominent personality: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/06/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-joe-biden-not-same-party-094642 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moulton at moulton.com Tue Dec 29 17:15:06 2020 From: moulton at moulton.com (F. C. Moulton) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 09:15:06 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/29/2020 5:22 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Well, Mr. Moulton, why don't you come right out and say what is wrong > with the video?? Details, not generalities.? ?bill w Well Mr. Wallace if you recall I wrote a rather detailed message describing what the video said concerning the Liberal position and skin color.? I pointed out how the video was misleading and inaccurate by the 44 second mark.? Before going further in pointing out the flaws in the video it might be prudent for everyone to understand that message as well as my later comment on usage of the term race since other flaws in the video can be described in a similar manner. So I have already provided a detailed critique of something that occurred relatively early in the video.? Once you have demonstrated that you understand my critique and have demonstrated that you have the interest, capability and commitment for a serious discussion then I will see if I can schedule additional time to an analysis of another section of the video. With All Best Regards Fred Moulton -- F. C. Moulton moulton at moulton.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 29 17:36:26 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 09:36:26 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000b01d6dd9f$9271abf0$b75503d0$@rainier66.com> References: <000a01d6dd8f$c47f0990$4d7d1cb0$@rainier66.com> <000b01d6dd9f$9271abf0$b75503d0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Dan Ust wrote >> I didn?t say nationalism was those [evil] things, >> but that it?s used to justify them. On 2020-12-28 21:00, spike jones wrote: > It doesn't justify them. These things you listed cannot be > justified, so it cannot legitimately be conflated with nationalism. They're different because nationalism *can* be justified? But that aside: Are you really that ingenuous? The point was that many people pretend (or persuade themselves) that the sanctity of the Nation does justify cruelties, and too many other people swallow it, even if you don't. >> Again, funny how folks who claim to be libertarians have no >> problem bowing to the entitlement programs argument to curtail >> freedom. Would you, again, be willing to curtain gun rights as long >> as there are medical entitlements? Or the freedom to take physical risks for oneself? (I assume that some here have read "With Folded Hands" ... or any column by Lenore Skenazy) > Gun rights are human rights. It is based on the human right to > lethal self-defense. (I'd say rather a right of *effective* self-defense, not limited by the possibility of incidental death, rather than a right to kill. "Stopping power" is not a mere euphemism.) > Entitlements came later. Those two cannot be conflated. Conflating > those two leads to violations of human rights. Remind me, who argued a moment ago that the existence of tax-based entitlements overrides freedom of movement and association? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 17:53:53 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 11:53:53 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. Yes, single words won't ever fit. As Spike's link to the Democrats' tent shows, there is a lot of variation. Whether there is too much to put a single label on I dunno. Taking suggestions. And - there are no neutral parties. All are biased. We just have to keep our BS detection always set at HIGH when dealing with politics. bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 10:54 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 1:56 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> https://www.prageru.com/video/left-or-liberal/ >> >> I simply did not know. When liberals have been attacked I have defended >> them. But what I did not know was that it is not the ultraliberals who >> came up with the ideas I fought - it was the Leftists. >> >> Very clear differences. I am most definitely a liberal and not a Leftist. >> > > "Left" and "liberal" are labels. Prager is not a neutral party in the use > or definition of these labels. Even with universally agreed upon > definitions of the terms, which we don't have, a one-dimensional left/right > or liberal/conservative spectrum is not sufficient to identify one's > political beliefs to anything but the roughest approximation. We shouldn't > use vague or misleading labels to identify our beliefs or attempt to apply > labels to people that they don't agree with. > > Back in the Usenet days we used geek codes < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek_Code> to summarize our > interests/activities/beliefs/skills. Maybe we need something like that. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 18:06:13 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:06:13 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000801d6de0d$4c319fb0$e494df10$@rainier66.com> > On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >? I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. ? bill w I am watching carefully for my own preconception bias. I have long thought that stable nations should have three mainstream schools of thought, where two generally agree on a particular position, but not always the same two schools of thought. Now it looks like that is developing. Three is the right number, not two. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 18:12:17 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:12:17 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 at 17:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. Yes, single words won't ever fit. As Spike's link to the Democrats' tent shows, there is a lot of variation. Whether there is too much to put a single label on I dunno. Taking suggestions. And - there are no neutral parties. All are biased. We just have to keep our BS detection always set at HIGH when dealing with politics. bill w > > _______________________________________________ Reminds me of the famous quote: ?Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.? ? Groucho Marx ----------------------- BillK From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 18:17:39 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:17:39 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love the Marx quote. It reminds me of demagoguery - I'll believe whatever it is popular and efficacious to believe, depending on whom I am talking with or trying to influence. Con artists. bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:14 PM BillK via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, 29 Dec 2020 at 17:56, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: > > > > Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find > amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by > pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. Yes, single words > won't ever fit. As Spike's link to the Democrats' tent shows, there is a > lot of variation. Whether there is too much to put a single label on I > dunno. Taking suggestions. And - there are no neutral parties. All are > biased. We just have to keep our BS detection always set at HIGH when > dealing with politics. bill w > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Reminds me of the famous quote: > > ?Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.? > ? Groucho Marx > > ----------------------- > > BillK > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:21:45 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:21:45 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find > amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by > pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. > I take it you didn't look up the geek codes I referenced? I know that pages and pages of details aren't practical. What *would* be practical would be to write a post explaining your views on a site like medium.com or even FB and "hand out" a tinyurl.com URL that points to it. The downside of that vs. a geek code is that it's unstructured and people would have to read and digest the whole thing, whereas a geek code is concise and structured, and with a little practice can be digested very quickly. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:34:08 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:34:08 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find > amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by > pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. > Another option would be to use a test score. E.g., take this quick 20 question quiz: http://polquiz.com/ I got: social 90%, economic 100%. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:52:12 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:52:12 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: P.S. Why is this not on the politics list, this whole thread is blatantly political and the new Mr. Secret Mod should probably lock it -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 20:07:33 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:07:33 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will, what is controversial about this? I am surprised. Please explain. I don't care which list it is on. bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 1:53 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > P.S. Why is this not on the politics list, this whole thread is blatantly > political and the new Mr. Secret Mod should probably lock it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 20:47:28 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:47:28 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > P.S. Why is this not on the politics list, this whole thread is blatantly > political and the new Mr. Secret Mod should probably lock it > ExiMod wrote: "Therefore pointless inflammatory political posts will result in one warning to stop that behavior." This discussion is civil and not pointless or inflammatory. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Tue Dec 29 20:50:03 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:50:03 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004f01d6de24$2f533720$8df9a560$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Will Steinberg via extropy-chat Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 11:52 AM To: ExI chat list Cc: Will Steinberg Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >?P.S. Why is this not on the politics list, this whole thread is blatantly political and the new Mr. Secret Mod should probably lock it? Will Thanks for that Will. I was getting squirmy with the direction it was going. I volunteer to say no more on the topic, and will follow thru even if others do not. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Tue Dec 29 21:59:44 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:59:44 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57f1c5c2-6ba0-993d-0c04-e457169800b2@pobox.com> On 2020-12-29 09:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages on > what I believe on scores of issues. These are correlated, though. If you plot people's opinions in n-dimensional space where each axis is an issue, most of the empirical variation is close to a two- or three-dimensional hyperplane. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From msd001 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 22:31:43 2020 From: msd001 at gmail.com (Mike Dougherty) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:31:43 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <57f1c5c2-6ba0-993d-0c04-e457169800b2@pobox.com> References: <57f1c5c2-6ba0-993d-0c04-e457169800b2@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:01 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-29 09:53, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages on > > what I believe on scores of issues. > > These are correlated, though. If you plot people's opinions in > n-dimensional space where each axis is an issue, most of the empirical > variation is close to a two- or three-dimensional hyperplane. > Oh! You're a math nerd. :) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Tue Dec 29 22:47:24 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:47:24 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) Message-ID: <20201229144724.Horde.f8qMVI4WLC8lYonUNTpcWAg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Anton Sherwood: > On 2020-12-27 11:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: >> Thanks for that billw. ?What Prager describes as liberal is something I >> have always thought of as libertarian.? I agree with everything he said >> in that video.? You and I are liberals. > > So freedom of movement across artificial boundaries is not a libertarian > position? Well, not gonna argue that here. National borders are no more artificial than property lines. Regulating traffic across national borders can be justified by similar arguments as having locks on your doors and fences around your yard. Living in denial that the collective has its own needs, its own will to survive, and its own emergent intelligence is a very poor defense of ones individual liberties against it. Statism and nationalism are emergent properties of the rule of law. While the ideal of political anarchy is that people will grow wise enough someday to self-regulate, the harsh reality is that without strict enforcement by governments, laws are ineffectual, and natural ape hierarchies manifested by feudal warlords and continual violence emerge. All of the greatest accomplishments of civilization from the Great Pyramid, to the Roman Coliseum, to the Apollo Moon Landings were collective achievements. That the few individuals that led these endeavors profited more than the rest is evidence that individualism and collectivism are interdependent on one another and can co-exist. Insects swarm, fish school, and birds flock for the purely selfish motives of a great many individuals, but once they form, they have their own properties not manifested by any individuals. > Prager also seems to have a statist post-hoc concept of nationalism. > Historically, nationalism was about what we might call "natural" > nations, tied by culture and kinship, as OPPOSED to the borders created > by wars and the homogenizing campaigns of authoritarian regimes > beginning with radical republican France. > Would Prager say "Basque nationalism", for example, is a contradiction > in terms because there is no sovereign Basque state? But war is a major mechanism by which culture and kinship evolve over time. The main reason there is such a thing as France today is that Caesar's legionnaires lumped the Vasconi tribe (ancestral Basques) in with the rest of the Gauls and taught them Latin in exchange for their tributes of gold, land, and daughters. What allowed a bunch of primitive and disparate tribes to form a nation was ultimately their fear and hatred of outside oppression. It is telling that when Basque nationalism started to re-emerge fairly recently, they took to writing their native language in the Latin alphabet of their ancient oppressors. Note that none of this should be construed as support for Prager's views. I am trying to make a larger point which is that any and all political positions are necessarily selfish, subjective, and relative. However, this is not to say that political positions that are reached from rational arguments are invalid. Instead I am taking a major cue from physics here in saying that contradictory and even diametrically opposed political views can both be completely correct from the point of view of the people espousing them. Consider what I call the "Parable of the Proton": Once upon a time there was proton who was drifting along at some velocity parallel to a wire from left to right. The proton was happily in its own inertial reference frame and so was the wire when suddenly, someone closed a switch and an electrical current started flowing through the wire. Now there were electrons drifting through the wire in the same direction and at roughly the same speed as the proton and the proton found itself shoved away from the wire by an invisible force. When questioned about the nature of the force, the wire and the proton gave contradictory answers. The wire, for its part, insisted that the proton was shoved by a magnetic force which arose as a result of the charged proton moving through the magnetic field that happened to be induced by the wire minding its own business and conducting an electrical current. The proton however vehemently disagreed. The proton insisted that it had been shoved away from the wire by the purely electrical force of the positively charged protons in the wire. The proton explained that what had happened was that when the circuit was closed and the electrons started moving along the wire with nearly the same velocity as the proton, it caused the electrons in the wire to move much slower relative to the lone proton than the positively charged protons in the wire. Therefore the wire's length was contracted relative to the outside proton and the co-moving electrons causing a local overabundance of positive charge which shoved the proton away from its rightful trajectory. Therefore it is concluded that even in a domain as rigorous, factual, and objective as physics, two observers can attribute different contradictory causes to the same event and yet both be absolutely correct based on their respective frames of reference. If there is that much wiggle room for subjectivity in physics, what hope do we have for finding objective truth in something as sloppy as politics? Is it any wonder then when asked what is the cause of poverty amongst black people you might get differing answers from either side of the political spectrum as well from the black people themselves? > If right and left have any consistent meaning in different places and > times, I'd say the right seeks social stability and the left seeks > social equality. Both of these terms are quite broad, and within them > the emphasis varies pretty widely. But neither has much room for > anti-authoritarianism, for a contractual social order as against a > status order. Right and left are meaningless without specifying a frame of reference. A conservative Christian living in the U.S. might have very different, perhaps even incompatible, values than a conservative Muslim living in Iran. But you are correct in that extremists on both the left and the right become increasingly authoritarian the further out on their respective wings they are. Stuart LaForge From foozler83 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 23:40:30 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:40:30 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201229144724.Horde.f8qMVI4WLC8lYonUNTpcWAg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201229144724.Horde.f8qMVI4WLC8lYonUNTpcWAg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: But you are correct in that extremists on both the left and the right become increasingly authoritarian the further out on their respective wings they are. Stuart LaForge Can I get a link to that data, please? bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 4:48 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > Quoting Anton Sherwood: > > > On 2020-12-27 11:10, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > >> Thanks for that billw. ?What Prager describes as liberal is something I > >> have always thought of as libertarian.? I agree with everything he said > >> in that video.? You and I are liberals. > > > > So freedom of movement across artificial boundaries is not a libertarian > > position? Well, not gonna argue that here. > > National borders are no more artificial than property lines. > Regulating traffic across national borders can be justified by similar > arguments as having locks on your doors and fences around your yard. > Living in denial that the collective has its own needs, its own will > to survive, and its own emergent intelligence is a very poor defense > of ones individual liberties against it. Statism and nationalism are > emergent properties of the rule of law. While the ideal of political > anarchy is that people will grow wise enough someday to self-regulate, > the harsh reality is that without strict enforcement by governments, > laws are ineffectual, and natural ape hierarchies manifested by feudal > warlords and continual violence emerge. > > All of the greatest accomplishments of civilization from the Great > Pyramid, to the Roman Coliseum, to the Apollo Moon Landings were > collective achievements. That the few individuals that led these > endeavors profited more than the rest is evidence that individualism > and collectivism are interdependent on one another and can co-exist. > Insects swarm, fish school, and birds flock for the purely selfish > motives of a great many individuals, but once they form, they have > their own properties not manifested by any individuals. > > > Prager also seems to have a statist post-hoc concept of nationalism. > > Historically, nationalism was about what we might call "natural" > > nations, tied by culture and kinship, as OPPOSED to the borders created > > by wars and the homogenizing campaigns of authoritarian regimes > > beginning with radical republican France. > > Would Prager say "Basque nationalism", for example, is a contradiction > > in terms because there is no sovereign Basque state? > > But war is a major mechanism by which culture and kinship evolve over > time. The main reason there is such a thing as France today is that > Caesar's legionnaires lumped the Vasconi tribe (ancestral Basques) in > with the rest of the Gauls and taught them Latin in exchange for their > tributes of gold, land, and daughters. What allowed a bunch of > primitive and disparate tribes to form a nation was ultimately their > fear and hatred of outside oppression. It is telling that when Basque > nationalism started to re-emerge fairly recently, they took to writing > their native language in the Latin alphabet of their ancient oppressors. > > Note that none of this should be construed as support for Prager's > views. I am trying to make a larger point which is that any and all > political positions are necessarily selfish, subjective, and relative. > However, this is not to say that political positions that are reached > from rational arguments are invalid. Instead I am taking a major cue > from physics here in saying that contradictory and even diametrically > opposed political views can both be completely correct from the point > of view of the people espousing them. > > Consider what I call the "Parable of the Proton": > > Once upon a time there was proton who was drifting along at some > velocity parallel to a wire from left to right. The proton was happily > in its own inertial reference frame and so was the wire when suddenly, > someone closed a switch and an electrical current started flowing > through the wire. Now there were electrons drifting through the wire > in the same direction and at roughly the same speed as the proton and > the proton found itself shoved away from the wire by an invisible force. > > When questioned about the nature of the force, the wire and the proton > gave contradictory answers. The wire, for its part, insisted that the > proton was shoved by a magnetic force which arose as a result of the > charged proton moving through the magnetic field that happened to be > induced by the wire minding its own business and conducting an > electrical current. > > The proton however vehemently disagreed. The proton insisted that it > had been shoved away from the wire by the purely electrical force of > the positively charged protons in the wire. The proton explained that > what had happened was that when the circuit was closed and the > electrons started moving along the wire with nearly the same velocity > as the proton, it caused the electrons in the wire to move much slower > relative to the lone proton than the positively charged protons in the > wire. Therefore the wire's length was contracted relative to the > outside proton and the co-moving electrons causing a local > overabundance of positive charge which shoved the proton away from its > rightful trajectory. > > Therefore it is concluded that even in a domain as rigorous, factual, > and objective as physics, two observers can attribute different > contradictory causes to the same event and yet both be absolutely > correct based on their respective frames of reference. > > If there is that much wiggle room for subjectivity in physics, what > hope do we have for finding objective truth in something as sloppy as > politics? Is it any wonder then when asked what is the cause of > poverty amongst black people you might get differing answers from > either side of the political spectrum as well from the black people > themselves? > > > If right and left have any consistent meaning in different places and > > times, I'd say the right seeks social stability and the left seeks > > social equality. Both of these terms are quite broad, and within them > > the emphasis varies pretty widely. But neither has much room for > > anti-authoritarianism, for a contractual social order as against a > > status order. > > Right and left are meaningless without specifying a frame of > reference. A conservative Christian living in the U.S. might have very > different, perhaps even incompatible, values than a conservative > Muslim living in Iran. But you are correct in that extremists on both > the left and the right become increasingly authoritarian the further > out on their respective wings they are. > > Stuart LaForge > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu Wed Dec 30 00:26:21 2020 From: hrivera at alumni.virginia.edu (Henry Rivera) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 19:26:21 -0500 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: <003b01d6dad6$279c75b0$76d56110$@rainier66.com> References: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> <2CF4CF12-6CD6-4C34-9750-5DAFDC89330B@alumni.virginia.edu> <003b01d6dad6$279c75b0$76d56110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Just checking in to say I'm better every day. I haven't needed any OTC meds in 2 days. I'm still fatigued and sleeping extra. This thing lingers on and on. Not sure when I'll feel 100%. Thanks for all the support. It's meant a lot. -Henry On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 10:54 AM wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henry Rivera > Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid > > >...Welp, I?m still sick. My partner and oldest have it too. So at least > we can live among each other at my house. ... > > ?I caught the covid, and I didn?t get the shot in time. Mmm mmm mmmm.? > > -Henry > > > > > > > Henry, this is ExI, but we unanimously declare this forum the Rivera > family cheerleader squad. This it will stay until you and yours are > healthy again. We will do the pom poms if necessary, perhaps stop short of > the poodle skirts. Stay in there, fight fight fight, drive to the goal. > > spike > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Dec 30 00:49:07 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:49:07 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) Message-ID: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: >> But you are correct in that extremists on both >> the left and the right become increasingly authoritarian the further >> out on their respective wings they are. > Can I get a link to that data, please? bill w Examples of far right-wing authoritarianism: Nazi Germany- https://muse.jhu.edu/article/13553 Fascist Italy- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2001/jun/25/artsandhumanities.highereducation Examples of far left-wing authoritarianism: Soviet Union- https://www.grunge.com/172246/the-worst-part-of-the-ussr-isnt-what-you-think/ People's Republic of China- https://www.cfr.org/article/communist-chinas-painful-human-rights-story Can you think of any historical or current counter-examples of a fascist or communist state where the people were free? Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 30 01:01:04 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:01:04 -0800 Subject: [ExI] I caught the covid In-Reply-To: References: <004101d6da82$e73dd0c0$b5b97240$@rainier66.com> <2CF4CF12-6CD6-4C34-9750-5DAFDC89330B@alumni.virginia.edu> <003b01d6dad6$279c75b0$76d56110$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <00a101d6de47$4031fb30$c095f190$@rainier66.com> From: Henry Rivera Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 4:26 PM To: spike at rainier66.com Cc: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [ExI] I caught the covid Just checking in to say I'm better every day. I haven't needed any OTC meds in 2 days. I'm still fatigued and sleeping extra. This thing lingers on and on. Not sure when I'll feel 100%. Thanks for all the support. It's meant a lot. -Henry Henry this is great news. We have been worried about ya. Didn?t want to clutter your inbox with a coupla dozen yahoos wanting to know how you are doing. Thanks for checking in, and thanks for having good news for us. I see that the US infection rate and death rate both dropped significantly in the past week. There are over 100 kiloproles being poked per day with vaccines. Perhaps this nightmare is coming to a close soon. Do let us hope. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 01:30:11 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:30:11 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201229144724.Horde.f8qMVI4WLC8lYonUNTpcWAg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201229144724.Horde.f8qMVI4WLC8lYonUNTpcWAg@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: > Quoting Anton Sherwood: >> So freedom of movement across artificial boundaries is not >> a libertarian position? Well, not gonna argue that here. I did not mean here to insist that libertarianism *requires* open borders; only to question the assertion that libertarianism is not *compatible* with open borders. On 2020-12-29 14:47, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > National borders are no more artificial than property lines. > Regulating traffic across national borders can be justified by > similar arguments as having locks on your doors and fences around > your yard. Feel free to attempt it. If a state finds it not worthwhile to filter visitors, does that make it tyrannous? > Living in denial that the collective has its own needs, its own will > to survive, and its own emergent intelligence is a very poor defense > of ones individual liberties against it. I deny that the state's emergent drives have moral weight, but certainly not that they exist. > Statism and nationalism are emergent properties of the rule of law. > While the ideal of political anarchy is that people will grow wise > enough someday to self-regulate, the harsh reality is that without > strict enforcement by governments, laws are ineffectual, Formal laws are largely redundant where people have the habit of peace, and impotent where that habit is absent. Or do you never turn your back on a stranger unless a policeman (or automatic surveillance) is nearby? When the enforcers are overwhelmed, as by natural disaster, people generally don't take the opportunity to murder each other. On the contrary, the Proper Authorities can generally be counted on to obstruct non-state efforts to help strangers. > and natural ape hierarchies manifested by feudal warlords and > continual violence emerge. Such violence is at least partly driven by the belief that it is inevitable. > All of the greatest accomplishments of civilization from the Great > Pyramid, to the Roman Coliseum, to the Apollo Moon Landings were > collective achievements. [...] I would not use emperors' monuments to themselves as arguments for the necessity of the state. Emphasis on Big Conspicuous Projects ignores the much greater contributions to the general good by the innovations of individuals and voluntary groups of all sizes (with and without conscious coordination). >> Prager also seems to have a statist post-hoc concept of >> nationalism. Historically, nationalism was about what we might call >> "natural" nations, tied by culture and kinship, as OPPOSED to the >> borders created by wars and the homogenizing campaigns of >> authoritarian regimes beginning with radical republican France. >> Would Prager say "Basque nationalism", for example, is a >> contradiction in terms because there is no sovereign Basque state? > > But war is a major mechanism by which culture and kinship evolve > over time. The main reason there is such a thing as France today is > that Caesar's legionnaires lumped the Vasconi tribe (ancestral > Basques) in with the rest of the Gauls and taught them Latin in > exchange for their tributes of gold, land, and daughters. After the legions went away, for about a thousand years no single state controlled (for more than a generation) most of the territory of modern France; nor will you find France's northern border on a map of Roman provinces. (France's other land borders are mountains and the Rhine.) Thus, France is not Gaul. Nor is it a linguistic unity (even disregarding Basques and Bretons): the line between langues d'o?l and langues d'oc cuts across the boundary of "France" through most of history, and Venetian is reckoned by at least some scholars to be more closely related to both than to Standard Italian. > What allowed a bunch of primitive and disparate tribes to form a > nation was ultimately their fear and hatred of outside oppression. Oh, like Switzerland? When was that? > It is telling that when Basque nationalism started to re-emerge > fairly recently, they took to writing their native language in the > Latin alphabet of their ancient oppressors. Nearly every written language uses a script borrowed from a neighbor, whether or not that neighbor was loved. It is due to the Church, not to the campaigns of Caesar, that Europe's scripts diverged less than those of India. (Thus I sometimes say that anarchists who use the Internet are as hypocritical as Protestants who use the alphabet.) > Note that none of this should be construed as support for Prager's > views. I am trying to make a larger point which is that any and all > political positions are necessarily selfish, subjective, and > relative. However, this is not to say that political positions that > are reached from rational arguments are invalid. Instead I am taking > a major cue from physics here in saying that contradictory and even > diametrically opposed political views can both be completely correct > from the point of view of the people espousing them. Okay. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 02:28:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:28:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: Sure all of those examples are true, as is very obvious to me and everyone, but that's not what I meant. I mean: if you take a group of extremists of either right or left (and now I am not sure what is meant by 'left') will they be more authoritarian than less extreme people? And/or does becoming more extreme make one more authoritarian? That's the data I want. We have identified the left as towards socialism and communism, but the left is traditionally liberal. There is nothing liberal about China or Russia. 'Liberal', I remind you, comes from 'freedom - liberty'. I am just confused. Very. bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 6:50 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Quoting Bill Wallace: > > >> But you are correct in that extremists on both > >> the left and the right become increasingly authoritarian the further > >> out on their respective wings they are. > > > Can I get a link to that data, please? bill w > > > Examples of far right-wing authoritarianism: > Nazi Germany- https://muse.jhu.edu/article/13553 > Fascist Italy- > > https://www.theguardian.com/education/2001/jun/25/artsandhumanities.highereducation > > Examples of far left-wing authoritarianism: > Soviet Union- > > https://www.grunge.com/172246/the-worst-part-of-the-ussr-isnt-what-you-think/ > People's Republic of China- > https://www.cfr.org/article/communist-chinas-painful-human-rights-story > > Can you think of any historical or current counter-examples of a > fascist or communist state where the people were free? > > Stuart LaForge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 02:48:54 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:48:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> On 2020-12-29 16:49, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > Can you think of any historical or current counter-examples > of a fascist or communist state where the people were free? Can anyone name a recent oppressive state that has not been described as either "right-wing" or "left-wing"? (Maybe a Muslim absolute monarchy.) Maybe it's not that philosophical extremism leads to authoritarianism, but that authoritarianism makes a lean to one wing more blatant. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 03:30:35 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 21:30:35 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: What Stuart seems to be saying is that when one moves more to the left or to the right, he becomes more hostile and uncaring towards people. I don't see how that follows, and I want any data anyone has. Hostility and uncaringness can be found abundantly in middle of the road people who just want to fight someone, and will adopt any philosophy that gets him there. Amoral. Apolitical. Power hungry. bill w On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 8:50 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-29 16:49, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > Can you think of any historical or current counter-examples > > of a fascist or communist state where the people were free? > > Can anyone name a recent oppressive state that has not been described as > either "right-wing" or "left-wing"? (Maybe a Muslim absolute monarchy.) > > Maybe it's not that philosophical extremism leads to authoritarianism, > but that authoritarianism makes a lean to one wing more blatant. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 03:50:38 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 19:50:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <57f1c5c2-6ba0-993d-0c04-e457169800b2@pobox.com> Message-ID: <5d3c5d36-446c-7fdb-72d4-8d204d6ae47f@pobox.com> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:01 PM Anton Sherwood wrote: > These are correlated, though. If you plot people's opinions in > n-dimensional space where each axis is an issue, most of the > empirical variation is close to a two- or three-dimensional > hyperplane. On 2020-12-29 14:31, Mike Dougherty via extropy-chat wrote: > Oh! You're a math nerd. :) Now we know. Does that explain anything? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From giulio at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 08:48:00 2020 From: giulio at gmail.com (Giulio Prisco) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:48:00 +0100 Subject: [ExI] Talk (video): Yet another spaceflight manifesto Message-ID: Talk (video): Yet another spaceflight manifesto Video of my AZIMUTH talk on spaceflight today and tomorrow, politics, culture, our bright future among the stars, and our cosmic destiny... https://turingchurch.net/talk-video-yet-another-spaceflight-manifesto-70864a12ad13 From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:06:16 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 07:06:16 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 10:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > What Stuart seems to be saying is that when one moves more to the left or > to the right, he becomes more hostile and uncaring towards people. > He's talking about states, not people. And he's saying that freedom suffers, not that they're hostile and uncaring towards people. > Hostility and uncaringness can be found abundantly in middle of the road > people who just want to fight someone, and will adopt any philosophy that > gets him there. Amoral. Apolitical. Power hungry. > You're still stuck on the one-dimensional political spectrum. People and their beliefs aren't one dimensional. Bill, I asked you to take this quick quiz: http://polquiz.com/ It's not perfect and it still leaves out many possible dimensions, but I'd really like to hear your results. It measures social and economic preferences. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 15:30:00 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:30:00 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian. The main reason I did not score 100 on the second is that to implement some of the changes,such as in welfare and health care would be very disruptive and drastically different from what we have now. Or you could look at it like some of my liberal tendencies crept in. The total Libertarian position will never happen, I think. Too much in the direction of Social Darwinism. bill On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 1:34 PM Dave Sill wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find >> amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by >> pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. >> > > Another option would be to use a test score. E.g., take this quick 20 > question quiz: http://polquiz.com/ > > I got: social 90%, economic 100%. > > -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 15:34:02 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:34:02 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: Dave, Just sent my polquiz test scores. The test on politicalcompass.com is two dimensional, and on it I score libertarian liberal. Yes, Stuart is talking about states, but they are run by people who are hostile and uncaring about the freedoms their people don't have. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:08 AM Dave Sill via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 10:32 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> What Stuart seems to be saying is that when one moves more to the left or >> to the right, he becomes more hostile and uncaring towards people. >> > > He's talking about states, not people. And he's saying that freedom > suffers, not that they're hostile and uncaring towards people. > > >> Hostility and uncaringness can be found abundantly in middle of the road >> people who just want to fight someone, and will adopt any philosophy that >> gets him there. Amoral. Apolitical. Power hungry. >> > > You're still stuck on the one-dimensional political spectrum. People and > their beliefs aren't one dimensional. > > Bill, I asked you to take this quick quiz: http://polquiz.com/ > > It's not perfect and it still leaves out many possible dimensions, but I'd > really like to hear your results. It measures social and economic > preferences. > > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 15:52:33 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:52:33 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:30 AM William Flynn Wallace wrote: > I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian. > Cool. I got 100, 90. Probably favoring mandatory military service kept me from a "perfect" score. Ideally, the military budget would shrink to fraction of the current levels and an all-voluntary military would be fine, but right now I just think it encourages war because we have all the people we need volunteering. The main reason I did not score 100 on the second is that to implement > some of the changes,such as in welfare and health care would be very > disruptive and drastically different from what we have now. Or you could > look at it like some of my liberal tendencies crept in. The total > Libertarian position will never happen, I think. Too much in the direction > of Social Darwinism. > Yea, it's more about what you believe than what you think will happen. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 16:12:17 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:12:17 -0500 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Dave, Just sent my polquiz test scores. The test on politicalcompass.com > is two dimensional, and on it I score libertarian liberal. > I got: Economic Left/Right: 5.63 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38 Which is consistent with polquiz, but I found politicalcompass.org (not .com) to be harder to answer. There were too many questions that I could have answered "strongly disagree" or "strongly agree". E.g., the first question: If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations. I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the interests of trans-national corporations. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 16:37:26 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:37:26 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: As for military service, I have always liked Heinlein's idea: after high school a two year commitment to service. It could be military, or Peace Corps (does that still exist? Haven't heard of it for a long time), or some other payback, as he says, to the country that provided a free education. I think kids would come back from that more mature, more eager to enter college or go into a trade. The older students I had, particularly those who left the military service, were always better students - not necessarily smarter, but more mature, better studiers, more into what they were going to do with their lives. I can't think of the name of it, but some students are taking a ....... year off from school now. Good idea. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:12 AM Dave Sill wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 10:37 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> Dave, Just sent my polquiz test scores. The test on politicalcompass.com >> is two dimensional, and on it I score libertarian liberal. >> > > I got: > Economic Left/Right: 5.63 > Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38 > > Which is consistent with polquiz, but I found politicalcompass.org (not > .com) to be harder to answer. There were too many questions that I could > have answered "strongly disagree" or "strongly agree". E.g., the first > question: > > If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve > humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations. > > I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the interests > of trans-national corporations. > > -Dave > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 17:27:58 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:27:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Figured I'd give it a spin: 70, 35. Not libertarian, barely over the line to liberal from moderate. On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian. > > The main reason I did not score 100 on the second is that to implement > some of the changes,such as in welfare and health care would be very > disruptive and drastically different from what we have now. Or you could > look at it like some of my liberal tendencies crept in. The total > Libertarian position will never happen, I think. Too much in the direction > of Social Darwinism. bill > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 1:34 PM Dave Sill wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >> >>> Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find >>> amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by >>> pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. >>> >> >> Another option would be to use a test score. E.g., take this quick 20 >> question quiz: http://polquiz.com/ >> >> I got: social 90%, economic 100%. >> >> -Dave >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steinberg.will at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 17:37:22 2020 From: steinberg.will at gmail.com (Will Steinberg) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 12:37:22 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got 60, 30, but I think it misrepresents my views. All this big or small government stuff is bogus imo. What we need is good government and good people. Government is a normal result of congregation. It's like a multicellular organism's nervous system. But it should be good to the rest of the body. I am in favor of a world government formed of federated communes, bound by a global moral code. On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:28 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Figured I'd give it a spin: 70, 35. Not libertarian, barely over the line > to liberal from moderate. > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian. >> >> The main reason I did not score 100 on the second is that to implement >> some of the changes,such as in welfare and health care would be very >> disruptive and drastically different from what we have now. Or you could >> look at it like some of my liberal tendencies crept in. The total >> Libertarian position will never happen, I think. Too much in the direction >> of Social Darwinism. bill >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 1:34 PM Dave Sill wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:55 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Well Dave, I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find >>>> amenable to my beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by >>>> pages and pages on what I believe on scores of issues. >>>> >>> >>> Another option would be to use a test score. E.g., take this quick 20 >>> question quiz: http://polquiz.com/ >>> >>> I got: social 90%, economic 100%. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 17:49:57 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:49:57 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <000801d6de0d$4c319fb0$e494df10$@rainier66.com> References: <000801d6de0d$4c319fb0$e494df10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Three is the right number, not two. Spike I am nearly totally ignorant of how the parties do things in D. C. I do know that committee assignments and chairmanships are allotted on the basis of party. How would that work with three parties I dunno. On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:07 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > *On Behalf Of *William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > > *Subject:* Re: [ExI] very informative > > > > >? I am just trying to find a group or groups I would find amenable to my > beliefs. "What are you politically?" cannot be followed by pages and pages > on what I believe on scores of issues. ? bill w > > > > I am watching carefully for my own preconception bias. I have long > thought that stable nations should have three mainstream schools of > thought, where two generally agree on a particular position, but not always > the same two schools of thought. Now it looks like that is developing. > Three is the right number, not two. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 17:56:09 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:56:09 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-12-30 09:37, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote: > All this big or small government stuff is bogus imo. > What we need is good government and good people. Agreed. Since compulsory monopoly government has inherent bad incentives that attract bad people, we need a different model. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:03:04 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:03:04 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:39 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I got 60, 30, but I think it misrepresents my views. All this big or > small government stuff is bogus imo. What we need is good government and > good people. > What's your plan for that? The masses don't seem to be particularly adept at selecting good people. What does "good government" mean to you, and how would we get one? The reason libertarians favor small government is that a government with limited powers and resources can't do as much evil as those with vast powers and resources. Any plan that requires selecting good people and hoping they stay good is doomed, IMO. Government is a normal result of congregation. It's like a multicellular > organism's nervous system. But it should be good to the rest of the body. > I am in favor of a world government formed of federated communes, bound by > a global moral code. > I'm in favor of people governing themselves as much as possible. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:06:39 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:06:39 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 9:38 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > I got 60, 30, but I think it misrepresents my views. All this big or > small government stuff is bogus imo. What we need is good government and > good people. > Agreed. Some of the answer sets came off as, "some regulations / some regulations / REGULATIONS ARE EVIL". Or, that first question about censorship: I believe that views that are objectively provably false should perhaps be limited in official contexts - for instance, no US government official should be allowed to use their position to promote views that immigrants are primarily rapists and murderers, or that the recent US election was fraudulent, when the evidence strongly points to the opposite - but the phrasing implied that this was indistinguishable from censoring mere opinion - for instance, one's belief about the presence or absence of a supernatural entity not detectable by science. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 18:10:43 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:10:43 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> Message-ID: <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> On 2020-12-30 08:12, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > ... I found politicalcompass.org to be harder to answer. There were > too many questions that I could have answered "strongly disagree" or > "strongly agree". E.g., the first question: > > If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily > serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national > corporations. > > I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the > interests of trans-national corporations. The question seems to assume that globalisation is inevitably managed by regulators, who are either Progressive or corrupt. Lots of blind spots like that. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From sparge at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:11:29 2020 From: sparge at gmail.com (Dave Sill) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 13:11:29 -0500 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <000801d6de0d$4c319fb0$e494df10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:51 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > Three is the right number, not two. Spike > > > I am nearly totally ignorant of how the parties do things in D. C. I do > know that committee assignments and chairmanships are allotted on the basis > of party. How would that work with three parties I dunno. > The UK is a classic example, but there are many throughout Europe. The power of the parties is proportional to their share of the seats in the legislature. -Dave -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:27:47 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 12:27:47 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Characterizing immigrants as evil and so on will be subject to lawsuits according to a very recent SCOTUS decision. Gov. employees will no longer be immune from lawsuits for slander etc. This will be very interesting. Global moral code? I cannot think of much that would be worse. Who gets to decide? Panels of religious leaders? How enforced? Will, you have come up with a real bummer here. I can see coming up with a moral code most people would agree to, but what would be done with it? bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:09 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 9:38 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > >> I got 60, 30, but I think it misrepresents my views. All this big or >> small government stuff is bogus imo. What we need is good government and >> good people. >> > > Agreed. Some of the answer sets came off as, "some regulations / some > regulations / REGULATIONS ARE EVIL". Or, that first question about > censorship: I believe that views that are objectively provably false should > perhaps be limited in official contexts - for instance, no US government > official should be allowed to use their position to promote views that > immigrants are primarily rapists and murderers, or that the recent US > election was fraudulent, when the evidence strongly points to the opposite > - but the phrasing implied that this was indistinguishable from censoring > mere opinion - for instance, one's belief about the presence or absence of > a supernatural entity not detectable by science. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 18:32:32 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 12:32:32 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: At present I think global economics is corrupt. Under the table payoffs are routine business just about everywhere. Graft. I learned all about that in Costa Rica - to get something imported, built,and many other things, you have to pay and pay and pay - everyone gets a little bit of your money, and it can take months to, for example, import your own vehicle after which you will have paid more in graft than you did for the car. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:14 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-30 08:12, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ... I found politicalcompass.org to be harder to answer. There were > > too many questions that I could have answered "strongly disagree" or > > "strongly agree". E.g., the first question: > > > > If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily > > serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national > > corporations. > > > > I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the > > interests of trans-national corporations. > > The question seems to assume that globalisation is inevitably managed by > regulators, who are either Progressive or corrupt. Lots of blind spots > like that. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avant at sollegro.com Wed Dec 30 19:01:52 2020 From: avant at sollegro.com (Stuart LaForge) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:01:52 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) Message-ID: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Quoting Bill Wallace: > Sure all of those examples are true, as is very obvious to me and > everyone, but that's not what I meant. I mean: if you take a group of > extremists of either right or left (and now I am not sure what is meant by > 'left') will they be more authoritarian than less extreme people? And/or > does becoming more extreme make one more authoritarian? That's the data I > want. Unfortunately I don't have any data for that on the level of individuals that is not simply anecdotal. The media does tend to paint religious zealots, terrorists, white supremacists, and revolutionaries as political extremists. But as Anton pointed out, it could just be that authoritarian people are attracted to political extremes as a route to achieving power over others. And while it is conceivable that there are people out there who are willing to keep their fanatical devotion to a political ideology to themselves, there are probably more who believe that their chosen cause is so righteous that anybody who dares disagree should be punished for their insolence. > We have identified the left as towards socialism and communism, but the > left is traditionally liberal. There is nothing liberal about China or > Russia. 'Liberal', I remind you, comes from 'freedom - liberty'. > > I am just confused. Very. bill w I don't blame you for being confused, Bill. Like Orwell said, "Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." The meaning of words evolve and shift over time and place. You are right that the original meaning of the word liberal was tied to freedom. It comes from the Latin adjective liberalis "of or befitting a free person". Over the centuries, it has shifted back and forth between complimentary and pejorative. In Rome it was complimentary because it meant one did not act like a slave or servant. After the fall of the Roman Empire, as Europeans adopted Monarchy in the Middle Ages, it came to be regarded as a pejorative for someone who spoke and acted in an unrestrained manner offensive to the crown. Then after the Renaissance, the term liberal was adopted by guys like Adam Smith, John Locke, and George Washington to describe Enlightenment ideals of egalitarianism, free markets, representative democracy, and personal liberty. These days it seems to be back to being a pejorative again at least in America where it is used by conservatives to describe progressives, socialists, communists, and other left-wingers. I think in the rest of the world, it still has its earlier meaning pertaining to freedom. At least it does when Putin speaks ill of liberal democracy. In contrast, the political use of the terms left and right came about much later than the word liberal. The terms originated during the French Revolution when the National Assembly would meet to make decisions for the people. Those who supported the king would sit on the right side of the President of the National Assembly and those that opposed the King would sit on his left. Unfortunately once liberal democracy became the status quo, the meaning of left shifted toward Marxism and the meaning of right shifted toward that of capitalism and free markets, i.e. what used to be to the left of the monarchy. So now that I have muddied the waters even further with history, I think it best if we simply let people believe what they believe without trying to label them as this or that in order to sway public opinion regarding them. If one chooses to self-identify with a particular set of political beliefs or political party then I suppose it permissible to call people what they call themselves. Stuart LaForge From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 30 22:30:14 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:30:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat > wrote: >?I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian? billw I got left-leaning libertarian, no surprise, 95, 80. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 22:36:38 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:36:38 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-30 11:01, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > But as Anton pointed out, it could just be that authoritarian people > are attracted to political extremes as a route to achieving power > over others. Anton disclaims credit for that observation. I meant to put causality more the other way: unchecked power relieves the ruler of the necessity of moderation, and so enhances whatever leanings the ruler had. Hm -- were Thailand and Turkey, during their respective military interregna, notably more wingy than in other periods? I have the impression that in both those places (unlike say Argentina) the military regime described itself as a caretaker, governing until normal government (purged of certain undesirables) could be safely restored. But I am far from well informed. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 22:40:10 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:40:10 -0600 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> References: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Spike, I answered most of them according to my ideals. A few of them I had to put liberal answers because the libertarian ideal would never be reached, and would amount to Social Darwinism. I could easily have come out more liberal. We are pretty close. I have not met anyone who had even heard of a liberal libertarian. They only knew the right wing types, building shelters, collecting food, ammo and guns. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 4:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:31 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat < > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > >?I got 100, 85. Just about the top of the pyramid. LIbertarian? billw > > > > I got left-leaning libertarian, no surprise, 95, 80. > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 22:41:14 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:41:14 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> References: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> Message-ID: <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> On 2020-12-30 11:01, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > These days it ['liberal'] seems to be back to being a pejorative > again at least in America where it is used by conservatives to > describe progressives, socialists, communists, and other > left-wingers. I think in the rest of the world, it still has its > earlier meaning pertaining to freedom. At least it does when Putin > speaks ill of liberal democracy. There was an amusing essay in (iirc) The Economist some years ago, beginning more or less: "In both Europe and America, there's a lot of talk that liberals are ruining everything; but in Europe and America the word has opposite meanings." Let's not forget that "liberal" can also mean generous, i.e. giving freely. I don't know if that has influenced its political meaning, on any continent. -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 22:55:19 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:55:19 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> References: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> Message-ID: Sometimes I wonder if other languages are as messed up as English. I love etymology and see often that a word has changed meanings so many times over the years that you would never know the original meaning of it from the current meaning. We allow words like 'unthaw', and let 'ravel' and 'unravel' have the same meaning, whereas 'sanction' can mean two things which are opposites. What a mess (never mind the archaic spelling, which makes English so hard to learn by nonnative speakers). bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 4:50 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-30 11:01, Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat wrote: > > These days it ['liberal'] seems to be back to being a pejorative > > again at least in America where it is used by conservatives to > > describe progressives, socialists, communists, and other > > left-wingers. I think in the rest of the world, it still has its > > earlier meaning pertaining to freedom. At least it does when Putin > > speaks ill of liberal democracy. > > There was an amusing essay in (iirc) The Economist some years ago, > beginning more or less: "In both Europe and America, there's a lot of > talk that liberals are ruining everything; but in Europe and America the > word has opposite meanings." > > Let's not forget that "liberal" can also mean generous, i.e. giving > freely. I don't know if that has influenced its political meaning, on > any continent. > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bronto at pobox.com Wed Dec 30 22:58:32 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:58:32 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> References: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-30 14:41, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > There was an amusing essay in (iirc) The Economist some years ago, > beginning more or less: "In both Europe and America, there's a lot of > talk that liberals are ruining everything; but in Europe and America the > word has opposite meanings." I blogged it and quoted from it, but the link to The Econ is broken. https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1501 -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From spike at rainier66.com Wed Dec 30 23:40:37 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:40:37 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <011601d6df05$2d5e65c0$881b3140$@rainier66.com> From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2020 2:40 PM To: ExI chat list Cc: William Flynn Wallace Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative >?Spike, I answered most of them according to my ideals. A few of them I had to put liberal answers because the libertarian ideal would never be reached, and would amount to Social Darwinism. I could easily have come out more liberal. We are pretty close. I have not met anyone who had even heard of a liberal libertarian. They only knew the right wing types, building shelters, collecting food, ammo and guns. bill w Building shelters, collecting food, ammo and guns are all activities perfectly compatible with left-leaning libertarianism. More often left-libertarian is associated with wanting all dope legalized. I have no heartburn with that, realizing that legalizing dope is also perfectly compatible with shelters, food hoarding, collecting guns and ammo. I see no logical tension at all there. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:42:37 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 23:42:37 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201230110152.Horde.CToYZe2O4e-NWN0rRZBS5j1@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <6c864460-357a-b91d-7580-92c48024ef0f@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 23:02, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > On 2020-12-30 14:41, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > There was an amusing essay in (iirc) The Economist some years ago, > > beginning more or less: "In both Europe and America, there's a lot of > > talk that liberals are ruining everything; but in Europe and America the > > word has opposite meanings." > > I blogged it and quoted from it, but the link to The Econ is broken. > https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1501 > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ Looks like- BillK From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 31 00:01:18 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:01:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: > On 2020-12-30 08:12, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > ... I found politicalcompass.org to be harder to answer. There were > > too many questions that I could have answered "strongly disagree" or > > "strongly agree". E.g., the first question: > > > > If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily > > serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national > > corporations. > > > > I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the > > interests of trans-national corporations. On 2020-12-30 10:10, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > The question seems to assume that globalisation is inevitably managed by > regulators, who are either Progressive or corrupt. Lots of blind spots > like that. Libertarians (especially leftish ones like Roderick Long) often point out that regulation creates economies of scale, even when it does not actively discourage competition, so corporations would likely be much smaller without it. So a libertarian can agree without much qualm. I see that I blogged in 2003 (https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1162), "I suspect I?d be further left if some of the questions were worded differently." Examples: It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society. Speculators in commodities serve society by making prices more predictable; they consume fluctuations, not cause them. On the other hand, political distortion of the financial system creates artificial opportunities for profit; which part of this picture deserves the focus of regret? A genuine free market requires restrictions on the ability of predator multinationals to create monopolies. A genuine free market *is* a restriction on that ability. So, agree or disagree? The businessperson and the manufacturer are more important than the writer and the artist. Unless we're discussing subsidies, who cares? Multinational companies are unethically exploiting the plant genetic resources of developing countries. Are we talking about use, or patents? My score on this quiz in 2006 was Economic Right 4.63, Social Lib 5.85; today it's Right 3.13, Lib 6.97. See also https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1447 -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 00:21:57 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 00:21:57 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: <011601d6df05$2d5e65c0$881b3140$@rainier66.com> References: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> <011601d6df05$2d5e65c0$881b3140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 23:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > Building shelters, collecting food, ammo and guns are all activities perfectly compatible with left-leaning libertarianism. More often left-libertarian is associated with wanting all dope legalized. I have no heartburn with that, realizing that legalizing dope is also perfectly compatible with shelters, food hoarding, collecting guns and ammo. I see no logical tension at all there. > > spike > _______________________________________________ That's the difference between USA and Europe. Europe has preppers (or survivalists) as well, but without the guns and ammo. Well, except maybe farmer types who might have shotguns for rabbits, game birds, etc. >From the viewpoint of Europe, the USA preppers look like the heavily-armed militia movement people that we have seen on TV, dressed in camo and struggling with carrying heavy machine guns around. They don't look at all like liberals to Europeans. BillK From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 00:59:28 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:59:28 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: <000a01d6df10$317106d0$94531470$@rainier66.com> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat >..."I suspect I?d be further left if some of the questions were worded differently." Examples: It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing to their society. ... -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org _______________________________________________ Ja, that one is nearly self-contradictory. Manipulating money can be a contribution to society in itself. Furthermore: people who have a ton of money would likely make their most important contributions to society with that ton of money. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 01:00:11 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 19:00:11 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: Anton, if I am reading this right, you are a right wing authoritarian. This is a very different test than the one I took many (?) years ago. My scores: -2.63 -7.74 modestly liberal, very libertarian I wish they had separated the economic and social scores. My social scores would be very libertarian. My economic scores would be a question - I know little of economics and don't know how certain policies relate to my values. But the test would not let me omit a question. Free market, yes, but in some cases highly regulated, like the businesses that deal with food or drugs, for safety's sake. Others need regulation for pollution problems. In other words, a corporation should not be allowed to endanger anyone, and they will if you let them. I don't trust people to put their net profits aside and do good for humanity. If they had a test for skepticism I would blow the top out of it. Sad to say, but my knowledge of psychology has strongly affected my view of the common man - all too common. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 6:03 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 2020-12-30 08:12, Dave Sill via extropy-chat wrote: > > > ... I found politicalcompass.org to be harder to answer. There were > > > too many questions that I could have answered "strongly disagree" or > > > "strongly agree". E.g., the first question: > > > > > > If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily > > > serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national > > > corporations. > > > > > > I think serving humanity can, and should, be consistent with the > > > interests of trans-national corporations. > > On 2020-12-30 10:10, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat wrote: > > The question seems to assume that globalisation is inevitably managed by > > regulators, who are either Progressive or corrupt. Lots of blind spots > > like that. > > Libertarians (especially leftish ones like Roderick Long) often point > out that regulation creates economies of scale, even when it does not > actively discourage competition, so corporations would likely be much > smaller without it. So a libertarian can agree without much qualm. > > I see that I blogged in 2003 (https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1162), > "I suspect I?d be further left if some of the questions were worded > differently." Examples: > > It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by > people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing > to their society. > > Speculators in commodities serve society by making prices more > predictable; they consume fluctuations, not cause them. On the other > hand, political distortion of the financial system creates artificial > opportunities for profit; which part of this picture deserves the focus > of regret? > > A genuine free market requires restrictions on the > ability of predator multinationals to create monopolies. > > A genuine free market *is* a restriction on that ability. So, agree or > disagree? > > The businessperson and the manufacturer are more > important than the writer and the artist. > > Unless we're discussing subsidies, who cares? > > Multinational companies are unethically exploiting > the plant genetic resources of developing countries. > > Are we talking about use, or patents? > > My score on this quiz in 2006 was Economic Right 4.63, Social Lib 5.85; > today it's Right 3.13, Lib 6.97. > > See also https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1447 > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 01:06:09 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 19:06:09 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: <000a01d6df10$317106d0$94531470$@rainier66.com> References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> <000a01d6df10$317106d0$94531470$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Ja, that one is nearly self-contradictory. Manipulating money can be a contribution to society in itself. Furthermore: people who have a ton of money would likely make their most important contributions to society with that ton of money. Spike That money goes somewhere and benefits people, the people who sell him goods and services. Keeps money moving around, which is good, I think. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:01 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat On Behalf Of > Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat > > >..."I suspect I?d be further left if some of the questions were worded > differently." Examples: > > It is regrettable that many personal fortunes are made by > people who simply manipulate money and contribute nothing > to their society. > > ... > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ja, that one is nearly self-contradictory. Manipulating money can be a > contribution to society in itself. Furthermore: people who have a ton of > money would likely make their most important contributions to society with > that ton of money. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 01:07:05 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:07:05 -0800 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: <00e001d6defb$58a78720$09f69560$@rainier66.com> <011601d6df05$2d5e65c0$881b3140$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: <000d01d6df11$41b83e40$c528bac0$@rainier66.com> ....> On Behalf Of BillK via extropy-chat Subject: Re: [ExI] very informative On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 at 23:43, spike jones via extropy-chat wrote: > ... legalizing dope is also perfectly compatible with shelters, food hoarding, collecting guns and ammo. I see no logical tension at all there. > > spike > _______________________________________________ >...That's the difference between USA and Europe. Europe has preppers (or survivalists) as well, but without the guns and ammo. Well, except maybe farmer types who might have shotguns for rabbits, game birds, etc. >From the viewpoint of Europe, the USA preppers look like the heavily-armed militia movement people that we have seen on TV, dressed in camo and struggling with carrying heavy machine guns around. They don't look at all like liberals to Europeans. BillK _______________________________________________ Ja OK but look at it another way. The camo and machine guns are pure Hollywood. Neither of those are useful, certainly not required. Most serious preppers look just like everyone else. You would have no way of knowing they have a huge cache of food. We are starting on the endgame of a pandemic which killed a bunch of people. Imagine a far worse version of it where instead of the fatality rate being a coupla percent, the survival rate was a coupla percent, and it was far more contagious. No national borders can stop it. In that situation, the unarmed would continue to devour each other down to the last man. But the well-armed prepper can defend her food cache, survive to eventually repopulate the planet with those who understand the value of the right to bear arms and the wisdom to be prepared for catastrophe. We used to think in terms of nuclear war, but now plenty of us recognize a really bad pandemic is as big or even bigger risk. spike From bronto at pobox.com Thu Dec 31 01:32:58 2020 From: bronto at pobox.com (Anton Sherwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:32:58 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 2020-12-30 17:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > Anton, if I am reading this right, you are a right wing > authoritarian. I stripped the signs as redundant because I used the verbal label; the quiz (for all its obvious faults) calls me a mid-right libertarian. > [....] Free market, yes, but in some cases highly regulated, like > the businesses that deal with food or drugs, for safety's sake. > Others need regulation for pollution problems. In other words, a > corporation should not be allowed to endanger anyone, and they will > if you let them. I don't trust people to put their net profits aside > and do good for humanity. [....] May I assume that you don't think civil tort liability (from which regulation is often a shield) could adequately address negative externalities? -- *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 01:39:23 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 19:39:23 -0600 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism (was very informative) In-Reply-To: References: <20201229164907.Horde.qPrKNKfJViQMghSsjw_Uhya@secure199.inmotionhosting.com> <9fe051d1-4dc4-e67a-cfa6-8a51617165e9@pobox.com> <46747af9-c31b-56a4-e036-ec3c713008ea@pobox.com> Message-ID: May I assume that you don't think civil tort liability (from which regulation is often a shield) could adequately address negative externalities? anton I don't know enough about it to respond. I don't know what the shield means. I do know that an individual has a very difficult time suing a big corporation, which can fille motions and keep the case in the court for years, and most people can't afford to pay a lawyer to keep up with that. They need some pro bono lawyer group to take their case and those are limited. bill w On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 7:34 PM Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-30 17:00, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote: > > Anton, if I am reading this right, you are a right wing > > authoritarian. > > I stripped the signs as redundant because I used the verbal label; the > quiz (for all its obvious faults) calls me a mid-right libertarian. > > > [....] Free market, yes, but in some cases highly regulated, like > > the businesses that deal with food or drugs, for safety's sake. > > Others need regulation for pollution problems. In other words, a > > corporation should not be allowed to endanger anyone, and they will > > if you let them. I don't trust people to put their net profits aside > > and do good for humanity. [....] > > May I assume that you don't think civil tort liability (from which > regulation is often a shield) could adequately address negative > externalities? > > -- > *\\* Anton Sherwood *\\* www.bendwavy.org > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 31 10:54:16 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:54:16 +0000 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30/12/2020 22:30, bill w wrote: > As for military service, I have always liked Heinlein's idea:? after > high school a two year commitment to service.? It could be military, > or Peace Corps (does that still exist?? Haven't heard of it for a long > time), or some other payback, as he says, to the country that provided > a free education. Well, that's an idea that deserves consideration, but only once the country in question actually does provide free education! (by which I mean higher education, not the basic education which every country needs to provide. There's no argument to 'payback' that, it's already in a countries interest to give its citizens a basic education (reading and writing, etc.), otherwise it wouldn't be compulsory). -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 31 11:02:09 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:02:09 +0000 Subject: [ExI] global moral code (was:Re: very informative) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> On 30/12/2020 22:30, Will Steinberg wrote: > I am in favor of a world government formed of federated communes, > bound by a global moral code I can't see that happening. Not any time soon. Whose moral code would it use? If it is to be a global one, that means it would have to be forcibly imposed on some people. I'd say that was morally wrong, wouldn't you? It would have to be agreed upon by everyone, and that's not going to happen, because people have different values, often wildly different. I suspect we wouldn't even be able to agree on a common moral code here on this list, never mind among the population of the entire world (and that's without even bringing religion into it). -- Ben Zaiboc From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 31 11:08:22 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:08:22 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67a1c5b1-ab95-6cf7-5eb0-4012286b1278@zaiboc.net> On 30/12/2020 22:30, Dave Sill wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 12:39 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat > > wrote: > > I got 60, 30, but I think it misrepresents my views.? All this big > or small government stuff is bogus imo.? What we need is good > government and good people. > > > What's your plan for that? The masses don't seem to be particularly > adept at selecting good people. What does "good government" mean to > you, and how would we get one? Personally, I think the first step would be to take the 'people' aspect out of the equation. Any system of governance will always be on shaky ground as long as it depends on 'good people' being in positions of power. What is needed is 'good systems'. Systems that will ensure that people, good or bad, can't do bad things. I thought that was what the american system was a stab at? Imperfect, as we've seen, but at least in the right general direction. Perhaps thinking about improving that would be more productive than inventing something from scratch? -- Ben Zaiboc -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 11:20:41 2020 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:20:41 +0000 Subject: [ExI] global moral code (was:Re: very informative) In-Reply-To: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> References: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 at 11:03, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote: > > I can't see that happening. Not any time soon. Whose moral code would it > use? If it is to be a global one, that means it would have to be > forcibly imposed on some people. I'd say that was morally wrong, > wouldn't you? > > It would have to be agreed upon by everyone, and that's not going to > happen, because people have different values, often wildly different. > > I suspect we wouldn't even be able to agree on a common moral code here > on this list, never mind among the population of the entire world (and > that's without even bringing religion into it). > -- > Ben Zaiboc > _______________________________________________ That's the problem that the AGI developers are running into. They want the AI to be moral and look after humans, but humans have too many different moral codes. An AI developed by Muslim researchers would want to install Sharia law everywhere. A Chinese AI would want to ensure obedience to the state. An American AI would want to install corporate capitalism everywhere. And so on........ Competing AIs will have to fight it out. BillK From ben at zaiboc.net Thu Dec 31 11:28:06 2020 From: ben at zaiboc.net (Ben Zaiboc) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:28:06 +0000 Subject: [ExI] very informative In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ba59347-7a8b-36d6-f1a8-187c6edcd0e1@zaiboc.net> On 30/12/2020 22:30, Adrian Tymes wrote: > ... for instance, one's belief about the presence or absence of a > supernatural entity not detectable by science. Just a niggle about that. I'd suggest it should read "one's belief or nonbelief about the presence of a supernatural entity...". Otherwise, it implies that you can only believe that there is, or believe that there isn't, such an entity, eliminating the possibility of not having a belief, and playing right into the hands of the god-squad who insist that everyone is 'a believer'. -- Ben Zaiboc From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 14:51:54 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 06:51:54 -0800 Subject: [ExI] global moral code (was:Re: very informative) In-Reply-To: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> References: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> Message-ID: <002501d6df84$7b7d88b0$72789a10$@rainier66.com> On 30/12/2020 22:30, Will Steinberg wrote: > I am in favor of a world government formed of federated communes, > bound by a global moral code... Will I would be good with that if they we start by adopting the US bill of rights as the basis of the global moral code. Then they would need to demonstrate their sincerity by enforcing that BoR on every existing government before they would qualify to be part of the federated communes. spike From foozler83 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 15:10:15 2020 From: foozler83 at gmail.com (William Flynn Wallace) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:10:15 -0600 Subject: [ExI] global moral code (was:Re: very informative) In-Reply-To: <002501d6df84$7b7d88b0$72789a10$@rainier66.com> References: <56c39c32-a57c-5a8f-609d-f5b4619cc04d@zaiboc.net> <002501d6df84$7b7d88b0$72789a10$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: Since our country has been so successful I cannot understand why our BOR (Bill of Rights) has not been widely adopted. To me it is the most important political document in history. Why would anyone turn down rights unless they are forced? bill w On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 8:53 AM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > On 30/12/2020 22:30, Will Steinberg wrote: > > I am in favor of a world government formed of federated communes, > > bound by a global moral code... Will > > I would be good with that if they we start by adopting the US bill of > rights > as the basis of the global moral code. Then they would need to demonstrate > their sincerity by enforcing that BoR on every existing government before > they would qualify to be part of the federated communes. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 16:07:01 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:07:01 -0800 Subject: [ExI] elon says this isn't cgi Message-ID: <000d01d6df8e$f9d00d00$ed702700$@rainier66.com> Boston Dynamics' latest smoking hot cool video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn3KWM1kuAw &feature=youtu.be Musk says it is the real thing. Is this a fun time to be alive or what? spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 16:31:23 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:31:23 -0800 Subject: [ExI] musk interview Message-ID: <002f01d6df92$6185db70$24919250$@rainier66.com> I am very surprised Elon Musk didn't do better on Gallup's Most Admired Man of 2020 poll, where he ranked behind Pope Francis at number 6. Absurd! Here's a recent interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGm4S3t0jro spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 16:53:18 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:53:18 -0800 Subject: [ExI] Political Relativism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 2:55 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > On 30/12/2020 22:30, bill w wrote: > > As for military service, I have always liked Heinlein's idea: after > > high school a two year commitment to service. It could be military, > > or Peace Corps (does that still exist? Haven't heard of it for a long > > time), or some other payback, as he says, to the country that provided > > a free education. > > Well, that's an idea that deserves consideration, but only once the > country in question actually does provide free education! > (by which I mean higher education, not the basic education which every > country needs to provide. There's no argument to 'payback' that, it's > already in a countries interest to give its citizens a basic education > (reading and writing, etc.), otherwise it wouldn't be compulsory). > The US military does in fact pay for college - not the most expensive Ivy League schools, but enough for a degree: https://www.military.com/education/money-for-school/tuition-assistance-ta-program-overview.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike at rainier66.com Thu Dec 31 22:30:48 2020 From: spike at rainier66.com (spike at rainier66.com) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:30:48 -0800 Subject: [ExI] spacex landing on boat Message-ID: <007401d6dfc4$96fdd550$c4f97ff0$@rainier66.com> I share this Twitter user's attitude about how cool this is, but disagree with his comment on impossible. It was generally agreed by about the late 1990s that it is possible to land a rocket feet first. https://twitter.com/i/status/1343959265988411394 spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atymes at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 22:49:46 2020 From: atymes at gmail.com (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:49:46 -0800 Subject: [ExI] spacex landing on boat In-Reply-To: <007401d6dfc4$96fdd550$c4f97ff0$@rainier66.com> References: <007401d6dfc4$96fdd550$c4f97ff0$@rainier66.com> Message-ID: With space technology, it seems, most people assume a thing is impossible until it is done, no matter how theoretically easy it should be. It seems that even a new type of nut and bolt won't be trusted to work in space until it has been demonstrated in space, even if there are literally zero applicable space-specific factors that might call into question the relevance of a ground demonstration. (A nut and bolt doesn't care about zero gravity, radiation, or vacuum.) On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 2:32 PM spike jones via extropy-chat < extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote: > > > I share this Twitter user?s attitude about how cool this is, but disagree > with his comment on impossible. It was generally agreed by about the late > 1990s that it is possible to land a rocket feet first. > > > > https://twitter.com/i/status/1343959265988411394 > > > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: